1 2010-10-04 01:11:25 <grondilu> 10 Napoleons gold coins for selling against BTC on http://grondilu.freeshell.org/bitXmetal.html !!
  2 2010-10-04 01:17:01 <nanotube> heh
  3 2010-10-04 01:17:51 <grondilu> ?
  4 2010-10-04 01:18:01 <nanotube> nice find, grondilu :)
  5 2010-10-04 01:18:15 <grondilu> what do u mean ?
  6 2010-10-04 01:18:46 <nanotube> just that it's cool to know that such things are on the market and being traded for btc
  7 2010-10-04 01:19:19 <grondilu> well unfortunately :  0 trade so far :(
  8 2010-10-04 01:19:41 <grondilu> but I had a bid for a 50FF Hercule
  9 2010-10-04 01:20:12 <grondilu> I guess people love their BTC too much ;)
 10 2010-10-04 01:20:35 <nanotube> hehe or don't love coins enough. :)
 11 2010-10-04 01:20:56 <grondilu> :/
 12 2010-10-04 01:22:14 <grondilu> If think most are scared about the fact that it has to go through the physical mail, at some point.
 13 2010-10-04 01:22:53 <nanotube> mm, that too. no guarantee it won't get 'lost' somewhere in transit
 14 2010-10-04 01:23:23 <grondilu> indeed :/
 15 2010-10-04 01:24:22 <grondilu> I guess I'll have to sell them to buy BTC with cash.
 16 2010-10-04 01:24:51 <grondilu> wich is so silly
 17 2010-10-04 01:49:28 <necrodearia> jgarzik, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1060.msg13156#msg13156
 18 2010-10-04 03:26:16 <necrodearia> Yay, updated http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=list_of_patches
 19 2010-10-04 03:33:07 <niekie> Hello necrodearia.
 20 2010-10-04 03:33:29 <necrodearia> hiya niekie
 21 2010-10-04 03:33:44 <nanotube> o/
 22 2010-10-04 03:35:41 <niekie> Ugh, slept in.
 23 2010-10-04 03:35:44 <niekie> Need to hurry now.
 24 2010-10-04 03:59:22 <niekie> Well, nvm that. I just, well... was sick :x
 25 2010-10-04 04:05:07 <nanotube> heh
 26 2010-10-04 04:17:24 <necrodearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoin_history
 27 2010-10-04 04:50:55 <necrodearia> ArtForz, When did you first establish your GPU hash farm?
 28 2010-10-04 04:51:16 <necrodearia> Instead of answering here, feel free to add the date at http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoin_history
 29 2010-10-04 04:58:29 <ArtForz> first block July 18
 30 2010-10-04 05:03:40 <necrodearia> Mmkay, thanks
 31 2010-10-04 05:23:39 <necrodearia> I discovered a kind of bug: I pasted an address to send btc to then additionally opened Address Book and added the address and clicked okay and it filled in the address after the address I had already input, with a space in between the addresses.
 32 2010-10-04 05:29:38 <necrodearia> nanotube, lr market seems to be stagnant
 33 2010-10-04 05:29:49 <necrodearia> =\n10060
 34 2010-10-04 05:33:06 <Keefe> i got spoiled. for my first two trades at bcm selling btc, the buyer paid in minutes
 35 2010-10-04 05:33:18 <Keefe> now i've waited 19 hours
 36 2010-10-04 05:33:56 <Keefe> maybe cause my 100btc offer got matched with a buyer wanting 3000btc
 37 2010-10-04 05:34:15 <Keefe> i imagine he wasn't happy to have to get a partial fill
 38 2010-10-04 05:35:06 <Keefe> actually 200 matched with 3000
 39 2010-10-04 06:11:30 <jgarzik> necrodearia: what makes you say LR market is stagnant?
 40 2010-10-04 06:12:16 <necrodearia> Well, glancing at my market monitor script (which I still have access to locally), it appears very few asks for quite a while.
 41 2010-10-04 06:12:36 <necrodearia> I'm working on fixing nullvoid for public too
 42 2010-10-04 06:13:01 <necrodearia> Currently issue is it takes up too much memory on vps and causes all other processed to be killed due to lack of remaining memory.
 43 2010-10-04 06:31:46 <noagendamarket> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1355.0  can someone sticky this on the forum?
 44 2010-10-04 06:31:55 <noagendamarket> *waves
 45 2010-10-04 06:44:21 <FreeMoney> :estimate
 46 2010-10-04 06:44:26 <FreeMoney> ;estimate
 47 2010-10-04 06:44:27 <bitbot> FreeMoney: HTTP Error 404: Not Found
 48 2010-10-04 06:56:25 <bitbot> Diablo-D3: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
 49 2010-10-04 06:56:25 <Diablo-D3> ;calculator
 50 2010-10-04 06:57:32 <m0mchil> hi Diablo-D3
 51 2010-10-04 06:58:03 <Diablo-D3> hi
 52 2010-10-04 06:58:15 <m0mchil> yesterday you mentioned some problem about python miner's kernel... or I misunderstood?
 53 2010-10-04 06:58:28 <Diablo-D3> not a problem
 54 2010-10-04 06:58:33 <Diablo-D3> its just, apparently, not fully optimized
 55 2010-10-04 06:58:38 <m0mchil> ah ok
 56 2010-10-04 06:58:47 <Diablo-D3> the real problem is the python
 57 2010-10-04 06:59:32 <Diablo-D3> all uses of clock() need to be changed to time()
 58 2010-10-04 06:59:33 <m0mchil> would you mind to explain... I get ~138 Mhash/s with 5770 right now
 59 2010-10-04 06:59:52 <Diablo-D3> and the globalThreads is too big
 60 2010-10-04 07:00:01 <m0mchil> oh... I thought there's something to optimize in the kernel itself
 61 2010-10-04 07:00:05 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: btw
 62 2010-10-04 07:00:09 <Diablo-D3> you dont know you're getting 138
 63 2010-10-04 07:00:13 <m0mchil> there should be of course :)
 64 2010-10-04 07:00:24 <Diablo-D3> the time calculation is entirely wrong
 65 2010-10-04 07:00:36 <Diablo-D3> which causes the khash meter to be wrong
 66 2010-10-04 07:01:25 <m0mchil> hm... what I see corresponds to real generation rate... and to the performance predicted by ATI's kernel analyzer
 67 2010-10-04 07:01:39 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but its still wrong =P
 68 2010-10-04 07:01:50 <m0mchil> :) good, please explain
 69 2010-10-04 07:01:51 <Diablo-D3> clock() measures cpu time used, time() measures wall clock time
 70 2010-10-04 07:02:02 <Diablo-D3> I got my 4850 saying over 1 ghash/sec the other day
 71 2010-10-04 07:02:05 <m0mchil> oh I see
 72 2010-10-04 07:02:14 <Diablo-D3> in reality, it does about 50
 73 2010-10-04 07:02:25 <Diablo-D3> 50 mhash I mean
 74 2010-10-04 07:02:43 <Diablo-D3> change all the uses of clock() to time(), and now its reflecting something closer to reality
 75 2010-10-04 07:04:41 <m0mchil> ok... just did it and the perfomrance is the same... perhaps it was some side effect... I initially tested it on a really slow 4350... and the number of global threads by default is not appropriate for faster chips I guess
 76 2010-10-04 07:04:52 <Diablo-D3> well
 77 2010-10-04 07:05:01 <Diablo-D3> the number is very inappropriate to begin with
 78 2010-10-04 07:05:30 <Diablo-D3> you should change it to be a multiple of 256 up to where you stop getting increases, and double it
 79 2010-10-04 07:05:42 <Diablo-D3> for my 4850, thats 768, and I double it to 1536
 80 2010-10-04 07:05:53 <Diablo-D3> otherwise desktop usage turns to shit
 81 2010-10-04 07:07:44 <m0mchil> thank you for this clarification (clock vs time)
 82 2010-10-04 07:08:25 <m0mchil> perhaps I should change it in the forum... or you comment there if you wish?
 83 2010-10-04 07:08:25 <necrodearia> surprise, http://nullvoid.org is back, kthxbai, sleep
 84 2010-10-04 07:08:41 <m0mchil> yay!
 85 2010-10-04 07:09:17 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: btw, the kernel
 86 2010-10-04 07:09:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz seems to think my 4850 should get 75mhash
 87 2010-10-04 07:09:28 <Diablo-D3> it gets 55
 88 2010-10-04 07:09:55 <Diablo-D3> necrodearia: the colors kind of suck though :<
 89 2010-10-04 07:10:25 <necrodearia> Diablo-D3, greasemonkey/stylish?/
 90 2010-10-04 07:10:37 <Diablo-D3> its too low contrast imo
 91 2010-10-04 07:10:45 <necrodearia> I'll fix it later
 92 2010-10-04 07:10:55 <necrodearia> when I get electricities again
 93 2010-10-04 07:11:43 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: wait, you're the guy who wrote this code?
 94 2010-10-04 07:12:04 <necrodearia> In the meantime: If anyone is willing to play with the css colors and to prepare a better color scheme, feel free to mention it to me and I can change it.
 95 2010-10-04 07:12:12 <m0mchil> diablo: ATI's analyzer is giving 75... but for 4870
 96 2010-10-04 07:12:21 <m0mchil> yes, I am
 97 2010-10-04 07:12:31 <Diablo-D3> add a #!/usr/bin/python at the top of the script
 98 2010-10-04 07:12:52 <necrodearia> ;bcs
 99 2010-10-04 07:12:54 <bitbot> necrodearia: CurrentBlockCount( 0 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 1,318.6704550300 ) NextDifficultyAt( 2,016 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 2,016 blocks )
100 2010-10-04 07:13:00 <necrodearia> hummmm
101 2010-10-04 07:13:32 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: you should put this on github or something
102 2010-10-04 07:14:02 <m0mchil> yeah... it's just a messy script... only an idea
103 2010-10-04 07:14:13 <necrodearia> ;bcs
104 2010-10-04 07:14:14 <bitbot> necrodearia: CurrentBlockCount( 83,433 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 1,318.6704550300 ) NextDifficultyAt( 84,672 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 1,239 blocks )
105 2010-10-04 07:14:23 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: well it works, thus you're stuck maintaining it
106 2010-10-04 07:14:24 <m0mchil> I hope for the getwork patch to get to the mainline
107 2010-10-04 07:17:47 <necrodearia> Oooh, we're behind scheduler
108 2010-10-04 07:17:52 <necrodearia> ;estimate
109 2010-10-04 07:17:53 <bitbot> necrodearia: LastDiff(5d 13:19:18 ago)  ExpBlocks(799)  ActualBlocks(777)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/12 19:58:28 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/10/13 05:53:24 GMT)  EstNewDiff(1282.36163149)
110 2010-10-04 07:39:21 <Keefe> yay! nullvoid statistix is back :D
111 2010-10-04 07:52:48 <Keefe> http://i52.tinypic.com/hsrkp5.png
112 2010-10-04 07:52:59 <Keefe> logarythmic scale this time
113 2010-10-04 07:53:22 <Keefe> puts the variance in proper perspective
114 2010-10-04 08:45:12 <jgarzik> wow, somebody bid @ .0630 for LRUSD on BCM
115 2010-10-04 09:39:46 <kermit> m0mchil: me and Diablo-D3 both ended up with weird errors and a screenshot in postscript by running it without the #!/usr/bin/python
116 2010-10-04 09:40:14 <kermit> and for a while both concluded that python just sucks, seinc neither of us know it
117 2010-10-04 09:40:46 <m0mchil> uh oh... sorry for that... I added this line and just created a git repo
118 2010-10-04 09:40:56 <m0mchil> http://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm
119 2010-10-04 09:41:06 <kermit> we couldn  tell this wasnt python erros   http://pastebin.com/gPMGpJbD  heh
120 2010-10-04 09:41:14 <m0mchil> also fixed all clock() calls to time()
121 2010-10-04 09:41:17 <kermit> kind of funny
122 2010-10-04 09:42:22 <m0mchil> is it working for you now? or you still have problems?
123 2010-10-04 09:43:00 <kermit> Diablo-D3 go it working.. i dont actually have a CL card anyway
124 2010-10-04 09:48:56 <edcba> hmm 0.3.13 doesn't bring a lot of new features
125 2010-10-04 10:08:20 <Diablo-D3> yeah I got it working under ATI using the deb packaged pyopengl
126 2010-10-04 10:08:31 <Diablo-D3> which, sadly, installs useless nvidia shit
127 2010-10-04 10:13:18 <Diablo-D3> I just use the environment variables you need anyhow to hijack it
128 2010-10-04 11:21:14 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if I can make this kernel faster
129 2010-10-04 11:33:05 <m0mchil> what are the directions for improvement you think of?
130 2010-10-04 11:34:42 <Diablo-D3> is there a profiler that works under linux?
131 2010-10-04 11:39:22 <m0mchil> there is, but in CUDA toolkit 3.2
132 2010-10-04 11:39:29 <Diablo-D3> yeah, screw nvidia
133 2010-10-04 11:39:35 <Diablo-D3> no one takes their shit seriously
134 2010-10-04 11:41:16 <m0mchil> ArtForz, what is your current performance per card? Would you like to share your kernel?
135 2010-10-04 11:57:12 <redengin> Diablo-D3, like the profiler thats already in the kernel?
136 2010-10-04 11:57:40 <redengin> Diablo-D3, or are you talking about a debugging profiler?
137 2010-10-04 12:01:04 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: yeah, it'd be easier if he just shared his
138 2010-10-04 12:01:12 <Diablo-D3> redengin: theres a profiler in the kernel?
139 2010-10-04 12:12:00 <m0mchil> how about puddinpop's kernel?
140 2010-10-04 12:12:59 <m0mchil> performance?
141 2010-10-04 12:13:01 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: btw
142 2010-10-04 12:13:06 <Diablo-D3> are you checking suitability in opencl?
143 2010-10-04 12:13:20 <m0mchil> i don't understand...?
144 2010-10-04 12:13:37 <Diablo-D3> it seems you are
145 2010-10-04 12:13:38 <Diablo-D3> you shouldnt
146 2010-10-04 12:14:00 <Diablo-D3> 
147 2010-10-04 12:14:02 <Diablo-D3> that code
148 2010-10-04 12:14:52 <m0mchil> why?
149 2010-10-04 12:15:20 <Diablo-D3> faster to do on the cpu
150 2010-10-04 12:15:49 <edcba> suitability ?
151 2010-10-04 12:15:54 <edcba> wtf is that
152 2010-10-04 12:16:03 <Diablo-D3> edcba: checks if the hash wins
153 2010-10-04 12:16:05 <m0mchil> nevermind, I got it
154 2010-10-04 12:16:08 <edcba> ok
155 2010-10-04 12:16:16 <m0mchil> will try it, for sure
156 2010-10-04 12:27:30 <m0mchil> actually, I won't... quick analysis showed that skipping this part in the kernel won't bring much of improvement, actually less than 0.5%
157 2010-10-04 12:27:52 <m0mchil> and you still have to bring a large buffer and sweep for a result
158 2010-10-04 12:45:40 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: on what hardware?
159 2010-10-04 12:46:32 <m0mchil> 5770
160 2010-10-04 12:47:35 <m0mchil> I saw nice optimization in puddinpop's... the last two SHA rounds are not needed for the second hash
161 2010-10-04 12:48:27 <m0mchil> at least for now :)
162 2010-10-04 12:49:56 <m0mchil> and OK, may be its better to check outside of the kernel
163 2010-10-04 13:01:25 <bd_> m0mchil: huh, how'd he skip the last two rounds?
164 2010-10-04 13:03:15 <m0mchil> because for now what we need to check are only last two uint32 of the hash (or first, if you watch it this way)
165 2010-10-04 13:03:51 <m0mchil> the last should be 0, and the other one - below the target value
166 2010-10-04 13:04:09 <m0mchil> eventually, the target will get outside this 8 bytes
167 2010-10-04 13:04:18 <m0mchil> can't tell when
168 2010-10-04 13:05:03 <m0mchil> the last two rounds doesn't change exactly those
169 2010-10-04 13:15:38 <Diablo-D3> meh
170 2010-10-04 13:15:42 <Diablo-D3> I dont think this CAN get any faster
171 2010-10-04 13:19:19 <Diablo-D3> at least Im not seeing it
172 2010-10-04 13:32:23 <m0mchil> my initial commit to github was broken, please update http://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm
173 2010-10-04 16:17:27 <jgarzik> lotsa heavy bidding for bitcoins (paying LRUSD) on BCM
174 2010-10-04 16:17:42 <jgarzik> none of mine, but I want to add to that pile...
175 2010-10-04 16:17:47 <jgarzik> unfortunately, nobody's selling bitcoins
176 2010-10-04 16:28:58 <nanotube> jgarzik: i see you're running an experiment on biddingpond :)
177 2010-10-04 16:29:29 <jgarzik> nanotube: yep, should be interesting...
178 2010-10-04 16:29:39 <nanotube> indeed ;)
179 2010-10-04 16:30:07 <jgarzik> nanotube: IMO an anonymous VISA debit card is worth more than PPUSD 100, but that's just my opinion.  We'll see what the market's opinion is...
180 2010-10-04 16:30:21 <jgarzik> nanotube: got any bitcoins to sell for LRUSD?  :)
181 2010-10-04 16:31:16 <smop> i have .05 bitcoins!
182 2010-10-04 16:31:23 <smop> which isn't even a bitcoin, no?
183 2010-10-04 16:34:17 <jgarzik> smop: alas, no :)
184 2010-10-04 16:34:58 <gavinandresen> What type of auction is biddingpond?  Is it like Ebay (incremental bidding) or a straight "what you bid is what you pay" ?
185 2010-10-04 16:35:34 <gavinandresen> smop: bit-nickel....    you can get two bit-quarters at freebitcoins.appspot.com last I checked
186 2010-10-04 16:36:50 <smop> yeah
187 2010-10-04 16:37:06 <smop> i got my bn from there
188 2010-10-04 16:37:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ebay-like
189 2010-10-04 16:37:16 <smop> .05 ^_^
190 2010-10-04 16:37:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: cool,thanks....
191 2010-10-04 16:37:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: on my auction, check out the 'View history' link to see default bidding: http://www.biddingpond.com/item.php?id=79
192 2010-10-04 16:38:38 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ah, yeah, I did look at that page, should have been able to figure it out from the identical timestamps on the outbids
193 2010-10-04 17:02:56 <jgarzik> thin Pecunix market, too
194 2010-10-04 17:03:11 <jgarzik> no sellers of BTC to be found for Pecunix or LRUSD
195 2010-10-04 17:04:11 <theymos> jgarzik: I'm about to place an ask for 8,000. Not sure where I'll put it yet, or at what price (probably quite a bit higher than the bids).
196 2010-10-04 17:09:20 <Keefe> why?
197 2010-10-04 17:10:00 <jgarzik> because I made several trades, and have not yet received payment instructions after ~30 min
198 2010-10-04 17:10:10 <Keefe> buys?
199 2010-10-04 17:10:46 <theymos> The Gmail spam filter has blocked BCM emails for me in the past.
200 2010-10-04 17:10:59 <Keefe> i've been waiting 30 hours for a buyer to send paypal for a trade (i'm selling btc), but just figured the buyer is unhappy with the deal and is backing out
201 2010-10-04 17:12:23 <jgarzik> theymos: it did that once, for me.  been checking Spam periodically.  I do enough BCM trading that hopefully it's learned by now, at any rate.
202 2010-10-04 17:12:42 <ArtForz> hrrrm
203 2010-10-04 17:13:55 <ArtForz> yeah, there seems to be some kind of problem with bcm + gmail
204 2010-10-04 17:14:20 <jgarzik> almost 20,000 BTC in reasonable LRUSD bids
205 2010-10-04 17:14:29 <jgarzik> (well, reasonable with regards to recent LRUSD prices)
206 2010-10-04 17:14:45 <ArtForz> yup
207 2010-10-04 17:15:53 <ArtForz> weird thing with bcm is the mail losses appear intermittent
208 2010-10-04 17:17:28 <jgarzik> I got one trade confirmation early this morning when BCM opened, that's it.
209 2010-10-04 17:18:01 <ArtForz> got none today
210 2010-10-04 17:18:54 <ArtForz> but that happened before, and a few hours to a day later suddenly all of em arrive at once
211 2010-10-04 17:22:10 <jgarzik> Over 500,000 BTC transferred in past 24h
212 2010-10-04 17:24:11 <jgarzik> FWIW, one of my bids on bitcoinmarket is 9000 BTC @ 0.0581 LRUSD
213 2010-10-04 17:24:21 <jgarzik> in case anybody wishes to transact here on IRC
214 2010-10-04 17:49:47 <kermit> wow
215 2010-10-04 17:50:11 <jgarzik> ?
216 2010-10-04 17:50:17 <kermit> thats a big bid!
217 2010-10-04 17:50:55 <kermit> thats more than all my cash and credit combined
218 2010-10-04 18:19:02 <warner> hm, the nullvoid dashboard is freaking out after a couple of minutes, lots of fields going negative of saying things like "NaN remaining"
219 2010-10-04 18:20:24 <lfm> ;nr
220 2010-10-04 18:20:34 <bitbot> lfm: CurrentBlockCount( 83,509 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 1,318.6704550300 ) NextDifficultyAt( 84,672 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 1,163 blocks )
221 2010-10-04 18:20:41 <warner> and then it goes back to normal
222 2010-10-04 18:21:14 <warner> the "number of blocks found in last X minutes" fields keep going negative
223 2010-10-04 18:23:05 <lfm> that happens when the timestamp from some miner is offset too far
224 2010-10-04 18:23:21 <warner> hm, interesting
225 2010-10-04 18:23:46 <warner> I've not yet read enough of the code to understand how consensus is achieved among those timestamps
226 2010-10-04 18:23:52 <lfm> if you watch the timestamps of blocks you will find negative steps on occasion
227 2010-10-04 18:23:55 <kermit> i find about half of poeple's clocks arent right, in this modern age
228 2010-10-04 18:23:58 <warner> I've seen notes about some sort of NTP-like scheme
229 2010-10-04 18:24:53 <lfm> warner not really, its just some primitive rationality checks to try to handle very wrong times
230 2010-10-04 18:27:34 <lfm> interesting, this machine found two blocks within an hour of one another yesterday
231 2010-10-04 18:30:59 <lfm> warner, itd probably be a good idea to do some sort of automatic internet time updates on any bitcoin generating system
232 2010-10-04 18:33:27 <warner> yeah, I'm interested in what sorts of attacks could be made
233 2010-10-04 18:33:40 <warner> hopefully only slow ones
234 2010-10-04 18:34:40 <warner> (I just watched _Entrapment_, and while it's a really bad movie, the scene in which they slow down the bank computers via forged NTP packets to give them 10 extra seconds to rob it was kinda fun)
235 2010-10-04 18:36:33 <lfm> warner, there are probably some DOS type attacks in there but I don't see how it would be worthwhile for an attacker
236 2010-10-04 18:37:07 <warner> what I'm thinking is someone trying to mess with the expected block-generation rate
237 2010-10-04 18:37:40 <warner> when you receive somebody else's block, part of the accept/reject decision has to be how far out of whack their timestamp is
238 2010-10-04 18:38:04 <lfm> um nope
239 2010-10-04 18:38:06 <warner> and then at the end of the nominal-two-weeks, that same dubious timestamp is what determines the next difficulty rating
240 2010-10-04 18:39:13 <lfm> you'd still have to produce the majority of the blocks I think and if you can do that there are far more usefull things to do with the power
241 2010-10-04 18:40:23 <warner> I really like the decentralized/consensus-based notion of "truth" generated in bitcoin. The notion of "time" needs to be managed with similar techniques.
242 2010-10-04 18:40:47 <jgarzik> 18,000 BTC sold on mtgox, just now
243 2010-10-04 18:40:47 <warner> time is one of those things where you're better off not depending upon it at all
244 2010-10-04 18:41:00 <jgarzik> I wonder if the price will break below 0.06
245 2010-10-04 18:41:55 <warner> wow, somebody dropped a grand on BTC?
246 2010-10-04 18:43:23 <warner> although there's an awful lot of interest (maybe another 20kBTC) near 0.06
247 2010-10-04 18:45:39 <lfm> but there is still a majority of the generated blocks have never been transfered at all
248 2010-10-04 18:47:35 <warner> "old money" :)
249 2010-10-04 18:47:51 <lfm> hoarders?
250 2010-10-04 18:50:07 <lfm> ;market
251 2010-10-04 18:50:10 <bitbot> lfm: Last(bcm:0.0635, mtgox:0.0608) High(bcm:0.062, mtgox:0.062) Low(bcm:0.062, mtgox:0.0608) BestBuyPrice(bcm:0.068, mtgox:0.0613) Volume(bcm:0, mtgox:31819)
252 2010-10-04 18:59:07 <jgarzik> warner: other way around -- somebody received $1000 USD for their bitcoins
253 2010-10-04 19:06:04 <jgarzik> looks like exchangezone.com might be useful for LRUSD -> PPUSD
254 2010-10-04 19:06:15 <jgarzik> verification only appears to be needed for PPUSD -> *
255 2010-10-04 19:06:25 <Diablo-D3> because lol pp
256 2010-10-04 19:08:32 <warner> jgarzik: was that $1000USD in a single transaction? i.e. from a single buyer? I didn't think anyone was so interested in owning BTC that they'd be willing to spend so much at once.
257 2010-10-04 19:10:01 <Diablo-D3> if a bubble exists, people will inflate it
258 2010-10-04 19:10:13 <warner> indeed
259 2010-10-04 19:15:03 <smop> can you just spawn bitcoins
260 2010-10-04 19:15:05 <smop> with amazon ec2?
261 2010-10-04 19:15:08 <lfm> dont prices go up in a bubble?
262 2010-10-04 19:15:26 <lfm> smop sure if you can afford it
263 2010-10-04 19:17:41 <Diablo-D3> smop: yes, but dont
264 2010-10-04 19:17:45 <Diablo-D3> ec2 has the highest prices
265 2010-10-04 19:17:56 <Diablo-D3> ec2 is an absolute shit cloud provider
266 2010-10-04 19:18:03 <Diablo-D3> smop: nenolod tried that earlier
267 2010-10-04 19:18:14 <kermit> smop: i dont think anything other than a GPU is economical
268 2010-10-04 19:18:16 <Diablo-D3> he figured out rapidxen was the cheapest
269 2010-10-04 19:18:28 <Diablo-D3> that, and rackspace cloud
270 2010-10-04 19:18:35 <lfm> at that time
271 2010-10-04 19:18:49 <Diablo-D3> lfm: it hasnt changed
272 2010-10-04 19:19:31 <Diablo-D3> RX cant get any more competitive, rackspace could only marginally lower their prices until they've oversold
273 2010-10-04 19:19:35 <Diablo-D3> and EC2 is still shit.
274 2010-10-04 19:20:17 <ArtForz> ahhh, here they are
275 2010-10-04 19:20:19 <lfm> and the difficulty has changed a lot since then
276 2010-10-04 19:20:24 <Diablo-D3> lfm: and yes
277 2010-10-04 19:20:26 <Diablo-D3> thats the big problem
278 2010-10-04 19:20:35 <ArtForz> bcm confirmation mails finally arrived
279 2010-10-04 19:20:38 <Diablo-D3> the difficulty is now so high, nobody's service is cheap enough
280 2010-10-04 19:21:20 <Diablo-D3> its cheaper than buying coins in the sense you can crank away without upsetting the market
281 2010-10-04 19:21:28 <Diablo-D3> but its still a net loss
282 2010-10-04 19:21:42 <lfm> smop so yes, you can try but it will cost more than just buying BTC on the market
283 2010-10-04 19:21:53 <Diablo-D3> lfm: thats not what I said
284 2010-10-04 19:22:13 <theymos> jgarzik: I just added 7,000 more BTC at 0.001575 Pecunix.
285 2010-10-04 19:22:35 <lfm> its what I am saying
286 2010-10-04 19:23:09 <Diablo-D3> it'll upset the market if you try to buy, like, a million btc
287 2010-10-04 19:23:14 <Diablo-D3> price will skyrocket
288 2010-10-04 19:23:39 <lfm> if you were thinking of investing enough that it could upset the market, then cranking would upset the difficulty rates
289 2010-10-04 19:23:43 <nanotube__> Diablo-D3: same as with any other market if you try to buy an amount that's much larger than the average daily trading volume
290 2010-10-04 19:23:55 <Diablo-D3> nanotube__: yes.
291 2010-10-04 19:24:03 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes, but  that just makes your coins, theoretically, worth more
292 2010-10-04 19:24:20 <Diablo-D3> people will be more likely to buy from you
293 2010-10-04 19:24:34 <Diablo-D3> so theoretically value will increase
294 2010-10-04 19:24:47 <Diablo-D3> it'll upset the market, but in a way favorable to mass generators
295 2010-10-04 19:24:57 <nanotube__> mm i missed the earlier bits - what are we talking about here? :)
296 2010-10-04 19:25:10 <lfm> not sure if I buy that theory
297 2010-10-04 19:25:26 <Diablo-D3> nanotube__: the viability of using VPSes to run bitcoin
298 2010-10-04 19:25:31 <Diablo-D3> lfm: it works for Art.
299 2010-10-04 19:26:26 <lfm> art hasnt spent that much (he was buying the hardware for other things anyway)
300 2010-10-04 19:26:41 <Diablo-D3> that doesnt make him any less insane
301 2010-10-04 19:27:12 <smop> lfm: oic
302 2010-10-04 19:27:42 <nanotube__> Diablo-D3: well... it's viable if you already have a vps anyway, and have spare cycles. if you are buying a vps just for the gen... probably not cost effective
303 2010-10-04 19:27:47 <lfm> smop so ya, it makes a difference how much you wanna invest
304 2010-10-04 19:28:33 <smop> i kind of want a cheap cloud provider
305 2010-10-04 19:28:35 <smop> to test some things
306 2010-10-04 19:29:24 <lfm> smop welll that'd be like Diablo-D3 said, rackspace or rapidxen
307 2010-10-04 19:30:20 <lfm> if you find one better let us know! :-)
308 2010-10-04 19:31:25 <Diablo-D3> smop: just be warned, its a net loss
309 2010-10-04 19:31:38 <Diablo-D3> the value of the btc is going to be below what it costs to generate them
310 2010-10-04 19:32:39 <nanotube__> hey, is it just me, or is bitcoinmarket down?
311 2010-10-04 19:32:58 <theymos> nanotube: Just you. Make sure you're using https.
312 2010-10-04 19:33:03 <ArtForz> just you
313 2010-10-04 19:33:19 <nanotube__> oh yea heh.
314 2010-10-04 19:33:27 <nanotube__> (using a not-my-computer....)
315 2010-10-04 19:33:49 <smop> true
316 2010-10-04 19:35:18 <jgarzik> warner: as I said, the person in question was SELLING bitcoins, obtaining USD.
317 2010-10-04 19:35:32 <jgarzik> warner: they were not interested in owning BTC
318 2010-10-04 19:35:42 <lfm> I suspect there was also a person buying
319 2010-10-04 19:36:22 <jgarzik> obviously there is a buyer for every seller, but it is unlikely there was a single buyer.  it is likely there was a single seller.
320 2010-10-04 19:36:24 <ArtForz> well, the price spiked upward = someone bought quite a few
321 2010-10-04 19:37:33 <jgarzik> ?  The price went down, if I'm reading things correctly:
322 2010-10-04 19:37:34 <jgarzik> MTG|     TRADE|                       3966 @ $0.060901
323 2010-10-04 19:38:17 <ArtForz> around when?
324 2010-10-04 19:39:21 <Keefe> little over an hour ago
325 2010-10-04 19:39:50 <Keefe> 1:13pm PT
326 2010-10-04 19:40:08 <lfm> looks duplicated
327 2010-10-04 19:40:24 <jgarzik> hmmm, yes, it does indeed
328 2010-10-04 19:40:33 <nanotube__> yea it's possible... :)
329 2010-10-04 19:40:47 <nanotube__> haven't had the time to track that down and fix the occasional dupe
330 2010-10-04 19:41:04 <ArtForz> {"date":1286223238,"price":0.060901,"amount":3966},{"date":1286223238,"price":0.06081,"amount":5034}
331 2010-10-04 19:43:15 <ArtForz> only showing up once here
332 2010-10-04 19:43:27 <necrodearia> Yeah, it's an issue with the code gribble is using
333 2010-10-04 19:44:25 <necrodearia> nanotube, Which address can I use to donate for gribble?
334 2010-10-04 19:44:57 <nanotube__> heh it's in -market's topic.
335 2010-10-04 19:45:17 <ArtForz> looks to me like there was a big buy around 1286158606, about 8k
336 2010-10-04 19:46:42 <lfm> Volume Real-time market data courtesy of nanotube/ gribble (1Nnyafvgjpk4856yGvHABNgqteWJqpTz6)
337 2010-10-04 19:46:55 <lfm> so is that a donation address?
338 2010-10-04 19:47:03 <nanotube__> lfm: yes it is :)
339 2010-10-04 19:49:50 <jgarzik> yay, BCM emails finally received
340 2010-10-04 19:50:04 <lfm> so far it has 31.37 donated to it (might have been some test coins to himself in there too)
341 2010-10-04 19:51:38 <lfm> oops read it wrong 33.37
342 2010-10-04 19:52:06 <ArtForz> 13.37 + 20 ?
343 2010-10-04 19:52:22 <lfm> 11.37+2.00+10.00+10.00
344 2010-10-04 19:52:46 <nanotube__> yep, one of those was jgarzik's "next person to post gets free money" (the 11.37
345 2010-10-04 19:52:56 <necrodearia> ^_^
346 2010-10-04 19:53:13 <ArtForz> I prefer necrodearias 666.66
347 2010-10-04 19:53:14 <necrodearia> So you have 33.37 in donations so far?
348 2010-10-04 19:53:28 <necrodearia> hehe
349 2010-10-04 19:53:39 <lfm> he spent 2.00 tho
350 2010-10-04 19:54:04 <necrodearia> mm
351 2010-10-04 19:55:58 <necrodearia> since I moved nullvoid.org website and bitbot to a vps that is not mine and I'm not hosting my personal bitcoin client on the vps, for now I hardcoded the donations received into the web pages so it will not appear accurate until I resolve my current living situation.
352 2010-10-04 19:57:22 <lfm> necrodearia,  I can tell you the number if you wish?
353 2010-10-04 19:58:02 <necrodearia> lfm: mm, you would need a list of all the bitcoin addresses I presume.
354 2010-10-04 19:58:18 <necrodearia> There are too many since each page load generated a unique address on some occasions.
355 2010-10-04 19:58:20 <lfm> oh its not just one?
356 2010-10-04 19:58:22 <necrodearia> nope
357 2010-10-04 19:59:34 <necrodearia> However
358 2010-10-04 19:59:40 <necrodearia> What I can do is...
359 2010-10-04 19:59:56 <necrodearia> lfm: What method do you use to determine how many bitcoins were sent to a particular address?
360 2010-10-04 20:00:21 <lfm> scan the block chain
361 2010-10-04 20:00:27 <necrodearia> What does that involve?
362 2010-10-04 20:00:37 <lfm> read file blk0001.dat
363 2010-10-04 20:00:47 <necrodearia> If I can  produce a script to extract that data, then I can automate it.
364 2010-10-04 20:00:55 <necrodearia> Do you have a python script for it?
365 2010-10-04 20:01:05 <nanotube__> necrodearia: lfm probably already has a script - i doubt he 'reads' the file manually :)
366 2010-10-04 20:01:10 <lfm> um no, and it is rather slow
367 2010-10-04 20:01:11 <necrodearia> oh
368 2010-10-04 20:01:14 <necrodearia> wow
369 2010-10-04 20:01:16 <nanotube__> mmm
370 2010-10-04 20:01:19 <necrodearia> I've been reading the data files manually
371 2010-10-04 20:01:25 <lfm> Its a C program
372 2010-10-04 20:01:28 <necrodearia> ah
373 2010-10-04 20:01:55 <necrodearia> Well it isn't too important then
374 2010-10-04 20:03:06 <nanotube__> old school doesn't mean bad school :)
375 2010-10-04 20:03:43 <lfm> ya, i just find it easier to write C than these newfangled scripting languages
376 2010-10-04 20:03:55 <warner> :)
377 2010-10-04 20:05:45 <jackmcbarn> how do i run bitcoin on two computers behind the same nat router, since both want the same port?
378 2010-10-04 20:06:19 <lfm> jackmcbarn, you dont need the incoming prot on them both, just run one without incomming
379 2010-10-04 20:06:29 <jackmcbarn> k
380 2010-10-04 20:07:36 <jgarzik> that's why I like perl -- I can make it look mostly like my C code ;)
381 2010-10-04 20:07:58 <jgarzik> necrodearia: bitcointools is python, and should be helpful
382 2010-10-04 20:08:05 <lfm> jgarzik, I heard the same excuse for using PL/1
383 2010-10-04 20:08:13 <jgarzik> I dunno if it has _direct_ bitcoin address tracing ability
384 2010-10-04 20:09:01 <lfm> jgarzik, Ya my stuff sorta started with the bitcointools
385 2010-10-04 20:10:15 <lfm> I guess necrodearia would have liked it better if I'd have stuck with the python it uses but I couldnt handle it
386 2010-10-04 20:11:10 <necrodearia> mm, I don't mind.
387 2010-10-04 20:26:04 <jgarzik> yeah, gribble is definitely duplicating mtgox trades
388 2010-10-04 20:28:31 <nanotube__> jgarzik: yep i know... will get around to fixing it soon, i hope :)
389 2010-10-04 20:31:02 <Diablo-D3> so hrm
390 2010-10-04 20:31:32 <jgarzik> Red Hat is a python shop, but I really dislike it.  Sigh :)  The world is pushing me to python.
391 2010-10-04 20:33:35 <gavinandresen> mmmm..... python......
392 2010-10-04 20:36:02 <nanotube__> what's wrong with python? it's a perfectly nice language. :) it's not "the only language you'll ever need", but it's pretty good at what it does.
393 2010-10-04 20:36:51 <lfm> sorta like basic then? :-)
394 2010-10-04 20:37:14 <Diablo-D3> python sucks.
395 2010-10-04 20:37:25 <Diablo-D3> theres exactly one python app Im currently running
396 2010-10-04 20:37:28 <ArtForz> more like javascript
397 2010-10-04 20:37:30 <Diablo-D3> guess what it is
398 2010-10-04 20:37:35 <jgarzik> being from a C background, I dislike being forced to use OO.  Sometimes the procedural style is simply easier, more straightforward.
399 2010-10-04 20:37:47 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: javascript is too domain specific to really compare
400 2010-10-04 20:37:48 <ArtForz> forced to use oo? in python?
401 2010-10-04 20:37:55 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: thats nonsensical
402 2010-10-04 20:37:56 <nanotube__> jgarzik: python doesn't require you to use oo. it's not java
403 2010-10-04 20:37:59 <Diablo-D3> Ive used C voer a decade
404 2010-10-04 20:38:06 <Diablo-D3> C _is_ OO
405 2010-10-04 20:38:10 <ArtForz> you can write C in python
406 2010-10-04 20:38:12 <Diablo-D3> and I wish people would quit claming it isnt
407 2010-10-04 20:38:17 <ArtForz> well, more-or-less
408 2010-10-04 20:38:19 <Diablo-D3> *claiming
409 2010-10-04 20:38:38 <lfm> Diablo-D3, so C++ is pointless then?
410 2010-10-04 20:38:52 <Diablo-D3> lfm: Ive been saying this as long as Ive been doing C
411 2010-10-04 20:39:13 <Diablo-D3> C++ is not only pointless, but destructive
412 2010-10-04 20:39:20 <ArtForz> of course you can do OO in C
413 2010-10-04 20:39:23 <nanotube__> and has too many pluses, too.
414 2010-10-04 20:39:39 <jgarzik> ArtForz: the kernel has some OO C :)
415 2010-10-04 20:39:48 <ArtForz> yep, linux kernel is a good example
416 2010-10-04 20:40:03 <lfm> the Xwindow system is another
417 2010-10-04 20:40:04 <Diablo-D3> anyone who uses glib/gtk or opencl or apr or basically ANYTHING is doing OO in C.
418 2010-10-04 20:40:05 <Diablo-D3> hell
419 2010-10-04 20:40:07 <Diablo-D3> if you use structs
420 2010-10-04 20:40:11 <Diablo-D3> you could be doing OO
421 2010-10-04 20:40:15 <ArtForz> yep
422 2010-10-04 20:40:35 <Diablo-D3> the only way to completely ensure you're not doing OO in C is to not use structs. at all.
423 2010-10-04 20:40:59 <jgarzik> OO is traditionally methods (in C, func ptrs) travelling with the structs, and some other details
424 2010-10-04 20:41:12 <jgarzik> a simple data structure does not OO make
425 2010-10-04 20:42:12 <Diablo-D3> wait, why start talking function pointers?
426 2010-10-04 20:42:25 <lfm> and oo made up a whole lot of new terms for old concepts
427 2010-10-04 20:42:29 <Diablo-D3> I can use properly namespaced functions and do it
428 2010-10-04 20:43:01 <Diablo-D3> such as class_method(class foo, args...), where class is a typedefed struct
429 2010-10-04 20:43:09 <Diablo-D3> glib style OO.
430 2010-10-04 20:43:30 <Diablo-D3> OO in C is just a self-imposed way of structuring your program
431 2010-10-04 20:44:09 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, lets get back to bashing python
432 2010-10-04 20:44:37 <Diablo-D3> that was more productive
433 2010-10-04 20:45:10 <ArtForz> well, it has a few nice concepts, but lots of em were implemented rather half-assedly
434 2010-10-04 20:45:10 <jackmcbarn> can anything go wrong with bitcoin if the computer loses power or kernel panics or something?
435 2010-10-04 20:45:41 <nanotube__> jackmcbarn: well everything is possible... but that's why you make regular wallet backups :)
436 2010-10-04 20:45:47 <theymos> jackmcbarn: Bitcoin is supposed to be resistant to that, but a database could get corrupted.
437 2010-10-04 20:45:50 <lfm> jackmcbarn, I spoze its possible the databases get corrupted but they do keep journals to try to recover
438 2010-10-04 20:46:36 <Diablo-D3> actually
439 2010-10-04 20:46:40 <ArtForz> indenting for block delineation = good idea, not specifying tabs or spaces = fail
440 2010-10-04 20:46:43 <Diablo-D3> its not even regular wallet backups
441 2010-10-04 20:46:51 <Diablo-D3> do regular backups of your whole fucking machine
442 2010-10-04 20:46:57 <lfm> jackmcbarn, much more likely you will screw it up trying to do backups or restores from backup the wrong way
443 2010-10-04 20:47:23 <Diablo-D3> btw, dont run bitcoin while you're backing shit up
444 2010-10-04 20:47:41 <lfm> or use the bitcoin builtin wallet backup command
445 2010-10-04 20:48:01 <Diablo-D3> let me rephrase that
446 2010-10-04 20:48:07 <Diablo-D3> boot linux in single user mode
447 2010-10-04 20:48:15 <Diablo-D3> mount your drive ro
448 2010-10-04 20:48:20 <Diablo-D3> back up to an external drive.
449 2010-10-04 20:48:42 <Diablo-D3> and then when you're done, umount the external, shove it in a drawer
450 2010-10-04 20:48:47 <Diablo-D3> repeat this every few months
451 2010-10-04 20:48:57 <theymos> Diablo-D3: You need to backup after every send, though...
452 2010-10-04 20:49:06 <lfm> so in other words you must do so much work for a backup that you will think its not worth it
453 2010-10-04 20:49:13 <Diablo-D3> lfm: thats work?
454 2010-10-04 20:49:17 <ArtForz> I don't do full backups of my debian boxes
455 2010-10-04 20:49:24 <Diablo-D3> jesus, I reboot, have it going, walk away for an hour
456 2010-10-04 20:49:25 <Diablo-D3> and its done
457 2010-10-04 20:49:31 <ArtForz> basically just package list, /etc and /home
458 2010-10-04 20:49:33 <Diablo-D3> all ~1TB worth of shit
459 2010-10-04 20:49:40 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I have a 2TB external
460 2010-10-04 20:49:46 <Diablo-D3> I can clone the whole damned thing
461 2010-10-04 20:50:29 <Diablo-D3> and out of my root drive, 95% of the data on it IS /home
462 2010-10-04 20:50:33 <Diablo-D3> whats another 5%
463 2010-10-04 20:50:59 <nanotube__> so my understanding is that if you have a backup of a wallet... then get some incoming txns on existing addresses... even if you lose your wallet, you can restore from backup, and will have all of your txns since backup pulled from the block chain, right?
464 2010-10-04 20:51:18 <nanotube__> while outgoing txns are actually two txns, one to someone else's address, while the other sends "the remainder" no a new address in your own wallet. so if you restore from backup, you would be missing the new privkey, and thus possibly losing coins
465 2010-10-04 20:51:20 <lfm> nanotube, should be
466 2010-10-04 20:51:27 <theymos> nanotube__: Yes.
467 2010-10-04 20:51:29 <ArtForz> yep, as long as you didn't SEND anything, you shouldnt lose anything
468 2010-10-04 20:51:33 <Diablo-D3> nanotube__: only if its sent to an address your wallet has a backup of
469 2010-10-04 20:51:49 <theymos> There's a chart at http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=backup
470 2010-10-04 20:51:59 <ArtForz> yeah, if you created a new address afterwards and stuff got sent to that... oops
471 2010-10-04 20:52:07 <Diablo-D3> this wallet backup stuff is a tad paranoid
472 2010-10-04 20:52:16 <nanotube__> so to summarize: backup after every send or new address generation, but not so much after every receive to existing address
473 2010-10-04 20:52:26 <ArtForz> yup, that sounds right
474 2010-10-04 20:52:30 <nanotube__> cool
475 2010-10-04 20:52:33 <Diablo-D3> the client should just automatically spam backups
476 2010-10-04 20:52:43 <lfm> or if you sent out 0.01 and it broke up a 1000.00 to send it oyud be out the 999.99
477 2010-10-04 20:53:04 <theymos> The wallet can be backed up while Bitcoin is running 80+% of the time, so I just have Jungle Disk back it up daily (with it set to keep 4 old versions). I also make a more secure backup every week or so.
478 2010-10-04 20:53:05 <nanotube__> Diablo-D3: or at least, there should be a switch that does "automatically back up wallet after every send/address generation, and periodically otherwise"
479 2010-10-04 20:53:11 <ArtForz> yup, thats what I suggested
480 2010-10-04 20:53:24 <nanotube__> so if you /do/ want those backups, they'll be made for you
481 2010-10-04 20:53:33 <nanotube__> ArtForz: cool - and what was satoshi's response? :)
482 2010-10-04 20:53:38 <lfm> theymos, cant you script the bitcoind backupwallet?
483 2010-10-04 20:53:44 <jgarzik> theymos: 100% of the time w/ backupwallet
484 2010-10-04 20:53:51 <ArtForz> response?
485 2010-10-04 20:53:59 <theymos> lfm: Only with -server, but I don't want to have that enabled on my desktop computer.
486 2010-10-04 20:54:10 <ArtForz> basically, automagically do a backupwallet after every addr generation or send
487 2010-10-04 20:55:00 <ArtForz> then you can have a simple script monitoring the last write timestamp on that and copy/archive it
488 2010-10-04 20:55:12 <Diablo-D3> nanotube__: yes.
489 2010-10-04 20:55:15 <nanotube__> ArtForz: well, you said you 'suggested it' so i assume people have said stuff about it, maybe even satoshi :)
490 2010-10-04 20:55:16 <Diablo-D3> it'd be easy to code
491 2010-10-04 20:55:23 <theymos> Wallet.dat also contains the transactions themselves, which would be useful in the event that the network forgets about them. Like the recent micro-transaction thing.
492 2010-10-04 20:56:48 <nanotube__> heh yea
493 2010-10-04 20:57:07 <nanotube__> that reminds me to check on that unconfirmable transaction when i get home to see if it got confirmed, and if not to bug satoshi about it again
494 2010-10-04 20:57:40 <theymos> If it's not clear, you should email him. He'll probably want you to send him your wallet.dat.
495 2010-10-04 21:00:38 <nanotube__> yea we'll see. :)
496 2010-10-04 21:00:44 <nanotube__> what happens if wallet gets dead /between/ a send and a backup? seems to mean that i could potentially lose all of my balance? though that seems to be only possible if my wallet only contains one large incoming txn, which is getting broken up by the send, right? otherwise, i'd only lose a bit of whatever 'leftovers' were sent to myself
497 2010-10-04 21:00:53 <nanotube__> is that right?
498 2010-10-04 21:01:11 <Diablo-D3> erm
499 2010-10-04 21:01:35 <lfm> nanotube__, ya, the moral is try not to consolodate your transactions
500 2010-10-04 21:01:41 <theymos> nanotube__: Yes; you lose the change, which could theoretically be your entire wallet if made of one transaction.
501 2010-10-04 21:01:59 <nanotube__> lfm: theymos ok, sensible... don't consolidate transactions. :)
502 2010-10-04 21:02:30 <nanotube__> theymos: maybe add that to the backup page :)
503 2010-10-04 21:02:57 <lfm> the problem with that advice is you cant really tell whats happening from the user intrface
504 2010-10-04 21:03:16 <nanotube__> because as unlikely as it may be that the wallet goes bork between a send and a backupwallet... it's still possible, and since we're talking about money, it's important to take even unlikely events into account
505 2010-10-04 21:03:24 <nanotube__> lfm: well, that's a separate problem. :)
506 2010-10-04 21:03:28 <theymos> nanotube__: It says that it could be your entire wallet.
507 2010-10-04 21:03:49 <nanotube__> theymos: yes, but it would be better (imo) if it said /when/ it would be your entire wallet. :)
508 2010-10-04 21:03:54 <nanotube__> and when not.
509 2010-10-04 21:04:52 <lfm> in order to explain it you need to explain a lot of the heeden background processing of the system. too bad it cant be explained easier
510 2010-10-04 21:05:04 <lfm> heeden -> hidden
511 2010-10-04 21:05:29 <ArtForz> yup
512 2010-10-04 21:05:43 <ArtForz> hmmm.... looks like adding a -autobackup=filename switch really would be quite trivial
513 2010-10-04 21:05:59 <lfm> add the fact you cant really choose which transaction you send from and thus which block gets broken up
514 2010-10-04 21:06:23 <nanotube__> this is pretty important info for anyone trying to say, run a site on top of a bitcoind, so it needs to be documented /somewhere/
515 2010-10-04 21:06:30 <nanotube__> the 'backup' wiki page seems as good a place as any :)
516 2010-10-04 21:06:32 <ArtForz> just compare db.cpp ThreadFlushWalletDB to BackupWallet
517 2010-10-04 21:06:57 <lfm> well now that this chat is logged it is now documented here, if you can trust IRC chats
518 2010-10-04 21:07:04 <nanotube__> lfm: yea that too... looks like plenty of room in there for a competing client :)
519 2010-10-04 21:07:13 <nanotube__> lfm: where is it logged?
520 2010-10-04 21:07:28 <nanotube__> i see the msg on join, and i see the 'poll' thread... but i have never seen a link to public logs.
521 2010-10-04 21:07:29 <lfm> um, I dont know
522 2010-10-04 21:07:39 <nanotube__> lfm: i have my private log, of course :)
523 2010-10-04 21:07:45 <nanotube__> but that's not the same as a public log.
524 2010-10-04 21:08:03 <lfm> there you go, we'll just tell everyone to ask nanotube
525 2010-10-04 21:08:13 <nanotube__> not to mention that having things in a wiki increases the 'accessibility' of the info over having to search megabytes of irc logs
526 2010-10-04 21:08:37 <lfm> just post the logs and let google index it
527 2010-10-04 21:09:10 <nanotube__> lfm: haha sure, i can put up my log on the web at a moment's notice... as long as there's official concensus for me to do so
528 2010-10-04 21:09:16 <nanotube__> i don't want to be lynched for it
529 2010-10-04 21:09:23 <ArtForz> http://stuff.caurea.org/irssi/freenode/%23bitcoin-dev/2010/
530 2010-10-04 21:09:34 <nanotube__> (plus my logs don't go back that far so i'd need some help with backfilling)
531 2010-10-04 21:10:15 <nanotube__> ArtForz: oh nice... those yours?
532 2010-10-04 21:10:20 <ArtForz> nope
533 2010-10-04 21:10:33 <ArtForz> found the link somewhere on the forum
534 2010-10-04 21:10:36 <nanotube__> hehe ic
535 2010-10-04 21:10:47 <nanotube__> so the whole poll question is moot, then....
536 2010-10-04 21:10:52 <Diablo-D3> man
537 2010-10-04 21:10:58 <Diablo-D3> I wish I had 500 even bitcoins
538 2010-10-04 21:11:08 <nanotube__> though atm, it seems there's pretty large majority supporting it
539 2010-10-04 21:11:20 <ArtForz> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=986.msg13899#msg13899
540 2010-10-04 21:11:32 <nanotube__> Diablo-D3: well, if you have more, you can send the extra to me. :) if you have less... buy some :P
541 2010-10-04 21:11:50 <Diablo-D3> Im at 405.05
542 2010-10-04 21:12:43 <lfm> Diablo-D3, Ill loan you 100, only 20% interest?
543 2010-10-04 21:13:11 <Diablo-D3> lfm: fail.
544 2010-10-04 21:14:39 <nanotube__> i'll loan you at 19 % interest.
545 2010-10-04 21:14:41 <lfm> what can one do with 500BTC that one cannot do with 405.05?
546 2010-10-04 21:14:44 <nanotube__> competition in lending! :)
547 2010-10-04 21:15:01 <ArtForz> lfm: send 500?
548 2010-10-04 21:15:25 <nanotube__> haha
549 2010-10-04 21:16:32 <nanotube__> ops: since there are public logs out there... someone should update the topic with fact, and link to.
550 2010-10-04 21:16:40 <nanotube__> jgarzik: --^ :)
551 2010-10-04 21:28:24 <necrodearia> ArtForz, btw, those logs are from wereHamster
552 2010-10-04 21:28:47 <ArtForz> nice
553 2010-10-04 21:32:12 <theymos> Updated: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?do=show&id=backup
554 2010-10-04 21:35:38 <nanotube__> theymos: awesome :)
555 2010-10-04 22:03:38 <necrodearia> woo,  grats theymos ^_^
556 2010-10-04 22:14:39 <theymos> It is perhaps a waste of time to make me an op, since I don't leave my IRC client online and there are currently no abuse issues.
557 2010-10-04 22:17:02 <kencausey> OK, but I just do it when I happen to come by
558 2010-10-04 22:17:32 <kencausey> really, the ChanServ access info needs to be maintained
559 2010-10-04 22:17:49 <theymos> I don't mind it, of course, but don't go out of your way. :-)
560 2010-10-04 22:18:01 <kencausey> no worries
561 2010-10-04 22:18:24 <kencausey> Does anyone know sirius-m?
562 2010-10-04 22:18:53 <kencausey> He/she hasn't been on since July, as channel founder, if he is gone long enough (a year maybe?) the channel will be deregistered
563 2010-10-04 22:21:19 <theymos> He's forum administrator, and also runs bitcoin.org and the wiki. PMing him would probably be best.
564 2010-10-04 22:21:50 <kencausey> via the forum you mean?
565 2010-10-04 22:21:53 <theymos> Yes.
566 2010-10-04 22:21:56 <kencausey> ok
567 2010-10-04 22:23:19 <kencausey> I think I won't bother him yet but will keep it in mind for a few months down the road
568 2010-10-04 22:23:29 <kencausey> It might better come from Xunie
569 2010-10-04 22:24:01 <theymos> Is Xunie active any more? Havn't seen anything from him for a while.
570 2010-10-04 22:24:52 <Xunie> What?
571 2010-10-04 22:24:57 <Xunie> theymos, actually, no.
572 2010-10-04 22:25:05 <theymos> lol
573 2010-10-04 22:25:07 <Xunie> I haven't been active in a while, atleast not on the forums.
574 2010-10-04 22:25:26 <Xunie> So, anyone needing of any opinion of something?
575 2010-10-04 22:26:54 <bitbot> Xunie: Sure, Which color hair do you think makes me look better?
576 2010-10-04 22:27:25 <kencausey> Xunie: I just notice the channel founder has not been around for months, so for safety it needs to be transferred to somone who will be, at least before a year passes anyway.
577 2010-10-04 22:27:55 <kencausey> Given you appear to be the first sirius-m gave 'permanent' ops rights to, I thought you might be the logical candidate.
578 2010-10-04 22:29:57 <Xunie> kencausey, sounds worrying, has anyone tried contacting sirius-m? Via email, etc?
579 2010-10-04 22:30:37 <kencausey> Well, I'm jumping the gun a bit, it's only been a few months at this point.
580 2010-10-04 22:31:09 <necrodearia> Xunie, I have previously contacted sirius-m
581 2010-10-04 22:31:11 <Xunie> I guess writing this on the wiki would be handy as a reminder, do we have a "Todo" list yet?
582 2010-10-04 22:31:13 <necrodearia> no response as of yet.
583 2010-10-04 22:31:36 <Xunie> I'll take founder if needed.
584 2010-10-04 22:32:53 <kencausey> oh, it might be more urgent than I thoguht
585 2010-10-04 22:32:59 <kencausey> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml
586 2010-10-04 22:32:59 <Xunie> Why?
587 2010-10-04 22:33:14 <kencausey> freenode consdier a nick valid for expiration if no login within 60 days
588 2010-10-04 22:33:30 <kencausey> fi the founder nick is dropped, the channel registration is dropped.
589 2010-10-04 22:33:34 <kencausey> s/fi/if/
590 2010-10-04 22:33:45 <kencausey> Xunie: would you mind pinging sirius-m?
591 2010-10-04 22:34:00 <kencausey> if he could just manage to login once a month it would help
592 2010-10-04 22:34:38 <Xunie> I have no way of contacting sirius-m myself.
593 2010-10-04 22:34:49 <kencausey> The forum links to his email
594 2010-10-04 22:35:04 <kencausey> I'm assuming sirius-m on the forum is the same person
595 2010-10-04 22:35:40 <Xunie> Yeah, he is. :P
596 2010-10-04 22:36:50 <Diablo-D3> hrm
597 2010-10-04 22:36:54 <Diablo-D3> is the calculator accurate?
598 2010-10-04 22:37:05 <bitbot> Diablo-D3: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
599 2010-10-04 22:37:05 <Diablo-D3> ;calculator
600 2010-10-04 22:38:13 <Xunie> I suggest a post on the forum about the situation and then email sirius-m at the same time.
601 2010-10-04 22:41:47 <Alystair> http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-fake-money-saved-brazil
602 2010-10-04 22:45:43 <Alystair> what's the problem here guys?
603 2010-10-04 22:45:54 <Alystair> channel ownership dropped?
604 2010-10-04 22:46:46 <kencausey> No problem yet, but there could be one soon.  The founder has no logged into freenode in over 60 days.
605 2010-10-04 22:46:54 <Alystair> ok.
606 2010-10-04 22:47:32 <Xunie> Would anyone be so kind to post a thread on the forums?
607 2010-10-04 22:47:41 <Xunie> I gotta run, cya later.
608 2010-10-04 22:53:51 <voluntaryist> hello
609 2010-10-04 22:54:12 <voluntaryist> I have a problem using bitcoin
610 2010-10-04 22:54:21 <voluntaryist> can somebody help?
611 2010-10-04 22:54:58 <redengin> maybe
612 2010-10-04 22:56:34 <voluntaryist> How is the bitcoin window supposed to be opened?
613 2010-10-04 22:56:52 <voluntaryist> I have bitcoin generating coins, and so it runs on idle
614 2010-10-04 22:57:02 <voluntaryist> I can see bitcoin in my task manager processes
615 2010-10-04 22:57:07 <Alystair> necrodearia: you can throw me on the list
616 2010-10-04 22:57:09 <voluntaryist> because it is working on idle
617 2010-10-04 22:57:11 <Alystair> if you're doing registration
618 2010-10-04 22:57:23 <Alystair> I idle long enough on freenode to help manage it
619 2010-10-04 22:58:02 <voluntaryist> How does being on idle help them out?
620 2010-10-04 22:58:54 <kencausey> voluntaryist: Alystair is discussing another topic
621 2010-10-04 22:59:06 <kencausey> voluntaryist: is this on Linux?
622 2010-10-04 22:59:30 <voluntaryist> kencausey: no, this is on windows 7
623 2010-10-04 22:59:43 <kencausey> voluntaryist: what did you run?
624 2010-10-04 23:00:07 <kencausey> bitcoine.exe?
625 2010-10-04 23:00:13 <kencausey> err bitcoin.exe?
626 2010-10-04 23:00:14 <voluntaryist> kencausey: yes
627 2010-10-04 23:00:31 <kencausey> well, that's not normal behavior, but I haven't run it on Windows 7
628 2010-10-04 23:00:59 <voluntaryist> kencausey: I have the shortcut on my desktop, and I click to open the bitcoin window.
629 2010-10-04 23:01:00 <redengin> voluntaryist, is there a tab in your desktop task bar?
630 2010-10-04 23:01:13 <kencausey> good point
631 2010-10-04 23:01:15 <voluntaryist> kencausey: yes
632 2010-10-04 23:01:28 <kencausey> double click it, right click for menu
633 2010-10-04 23:01:42 <kencausey> I haven't tried 0.3.13 yet, maybe the startup behavior has changed
634 2010-10-04 23:01:51 <voluntaryist> kencausey: There is the loading circle next to the cursos for a little while, and then it just stops
635 2010-10-04 23:02:06 <kencausey> as a result of what?
636 2010-10-04 23:02:23 <voluntaryist> kencausey: of double-clicking the shortcut to bitcoin
637 2010-10-04 23:02:44 <kencausey> let's back up
638 2010-10-04 23:02:48 <kencausey> look in the system trayt
639 2010-10-04 23:02:57 <voluntaryist> how?
640 2010-10-04 23:03:10 <kencausey> the set of icons next to the time?
641 2010-10-04 23:03:23 <voluntaryist> ok, which one?
642 2010-10-04 23:03:25 <doublec> sometimes it takes a while to start on windows
643 2010-10-04 23:03:27 <kencausey> it does take a while to startup actually
644 2010-10-04 23:03:42 <voluntaryist> which icon?
645 2010-10-04 23:03:45 <kencausey> yes, but not more than a minute I shouldn't think
646 2010-10-04 23:04:06 <voluntaryist> i don't care about the time. which icon is the system trayt?
647 2010-10-04 23:04:20 <kencausey> 'is' or 'in'?
648 2010-10-04 23:04:25 <kencausey> you aren't making much sense
649 2010-10-04 23:04:41 <voluntaryist> you said that there were icons next to the time.
650 2010-10-04 23:04:43 <kencausey> you should see an icon in the system tray that looks like a gold coin with a B
651 2010-10-04 23:04:45 <doublec> voluntaryist, what version of windows are you using?
652 2010-10-04 23:04:47 <kencausey> 7
653 2010-10-04 23:04:54 <kencausey> maybe I'm too out of date to help here
654 2010-10-04 23:04:57 <doublec> the icon is hidden by default
655 2010-10-04 23:05:01 <doublec> on windows 7
656 2010-10-04 23:05:06 <kencausey> all of them?
657 2010-10-04 23:05:12 <doublec> you need to click the up arrow next to the system tray
658 2010-10-04 23:05:15 <voluntaryist> ahhhhhh
659 2010-10-04 23:05:17 <doublec> kencausey, yes
660 2010-10-04 23:05:17 <voluntaryist> i see
661 2010-10-04 23:05:28 <kencausey> well, I don't count that as hidden
662 2010-10-04 23:05:37 <kencausey> I assumed one would know to look there
663 2010-10-04 23:05:45 <doublec> after clicking that up arrow, choose customize and then tell it to make bitcoin always displayed in the system tray
664 2010-10-04 23:05:50 <doublec> true
665 2010-10-04 23:05:56 <voluntaryist> I set my cursor above the bitcoin icon, and it says: Bitcoin - (not connected)
666 2010-10-04 23:06:06 <doublec> I was new to windows 7 and got confused when none of my icons appeared in the tray at first
667 2010-10-04 23:06:16 <kencausey> voluntaryist: double click that
668 2010-10-04 23:06:33 <voluntaryist> it opened
669 2010-10-04 23:06:39 <voluntaryist> thank you very much
670 2010-10-04 23:07:03 <voluntaryist> I'll send you a bitcoin once I generate one, lol
671 2010-10-04 23:08:10 <voluntaryist> I also have general questions about bitcoin.
672 2010-10-04 23:08:32 <voluntaryist> If the time comes when I generate a coin, will it appear in my "received" tab?
673 2010-10-04 23:09:38 <voluntaryist> what is the khash/s in the bottom lefthand corner?
674 2010-10-04 23:11:11 <Keefe> it will not show in the received tab
675 2010-10-04 23:11:17 <Keefe> only in All
676 2010-10-04 23:11:39 <voluntaryist> you mean "All Transactions"
677 2010-10-04 23:11:43 <Keefe> yes
678 2010-10-04 23:12:23 <voluntaryist> what is the clipboard?
679 2010-10-04 23:12:37 <voluntaryist> when should I copy my address to clipboard
680 2010-10-04 23:12:38 <voluntaryist> ?
681 2010-10-04 23:12:51 <Keefe> khash/s tells you how many thousand times in a second your processor tries a number hoping to find one that meets the difficult criteria to be an accepted block
682 2010-10-04 23:13:05 <Keefe> blocks give the generator 50 btc currently
683 2010-10-04 23:13:13 <Keefe> someday that will be decreased
684 2010-10-04 23:13:30 <voluntaryist> ok, good
685 2010-10-04 23:13:54 <Keefe> an average cpu finds a good number about once a month or two
686 2010-10-04 23:14:13 <voluntaryist> ok
687 2010-10-04 23:14:44 <Keefe> google clipboard
688 2010-10-04 23:14:48 <voluntaryist> when I click, next to my address, where it says "new"
689 2010-10-04 23:14:57 <voluntaryist> should I change my address?
690 2010-10-04 23:15:29 <Keefe> it's beneficial for anonymity purposes to use a different address each time you receive btc
691 2010-10-04 23:15:43 <voluntaryist> do you make those addresses up
692 2010-10-04 23:15:45 <voluntaryist> ?
693 2010-10-04 23:15:59 <Keefe> i think the program automatically makes a new address when btc is received
694 2010-10-04 23:16:23 <voluntaryist> what is the purpose of the button that nes "new..." then?
695 2010-10-04 23:16:26 <Keefe> addresses represent public keys
696 2010-10-04 23:16:53 <Keefe> your wallet keeps the private key half of a keypair for each address created
697 2010-10-04 23:17:24 <voluntaryist> what is the purpose of the button next to my address that says "new...."
698 2010-10-04 23:17:26 <voluntaryist> ?
699 2010-10-04 23:17:42 <Keefe> i guess if you want to make a new address on demand
700 2010-10-04 23:18:02 <voluntaryist> It says "label" and under it there is a box
701 2010-10-04 23:18:16 <voluntaryist> do i make up an address in the box?
702 2010-10-04 23:18:20 <Keefe> ya, you can tag your addresses with a label for convenience
703 2010-10-04 23:18:27 <Keefe> you do not make the address
704 2010-10-04 23:18:40 <Keefe> it's generated randomly when you tell it to
705 2010-10-04 23:18:57 <voluntaryist> how do i tell it to?
706 2010-10-04 23:19:02 <Keefe> click new
707 2010-10-04 23:19:21 <voluntaryist> then it just sends me to the "label
708 2010-10-04 23:19:23 <Keefe> the label is optional
709 2010-10-04 23:19:24 <voluntaryist> " box
710 2010-10-04 23:19:34 <voluntaryist> oh, ok
711 2010-10-04 23:19:46 <voluntaryist> I see
712 2010-10-04 23:20:50 <voluntaryist> how do i set my firewall to forward port 8333 (TCP)?
713 2010-10-04 23:21:03 <Keefe> google it
714 2010-10-04 23:21:12 <voluntaryist> ok
715 2010-10-04 23:44:33 <smop> http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-fake-money-saved-brazil
716 2010-10-04 23:57:41 <Netsniper> http://www.sacbee.com/2010/10/01/3071526/why-stimulus-doesnt-stimulate.html