1 2010-10-05 00:08:37 <voluntaryist> in the send coins window
  2 2010-10-05 00:08:49 <voluntaryist> there is the "from" text box
  3 2010-10-05 00:09:10 <voluntaryist> are you supposed to write your bitcoin address there?
  4 2010-10-05 00:10:22 <ArtForz> if you fill in a bitcoin address in pay to, from and comment get disabled automatically
  5 2010-10-05 00:11:28 <ArtForz> from and comment are for now only usable for pay-to-ip, which is vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks and thus strongly discouraged
  6 2010-10-05 00:15:09 <voluntaryist> can bitcoin make transactions in the absence of internet connection?
  7 2010-10-05 00:15:57 <ArtForz> I don't think so
  8 2010-10-05 00:16:23 <voluntaryist> oh, ok
  9 2010-10-05 00:18:53 <voluntaryist> what is the "copy to clipboard" button for?
 10 2010-10-05 00:19:30 <ArtForz> copies the current address to the clipboard
 11 2010-10-05 00:19:51 <voluntaryist> where can I see the clipboard
 12 2010-10-05 00:19:55 <voluntaryist> ?
 13 2010-10-05 00:20:12 <ArtForz> you know, the clipboard, the thing used for copy&paste
 14 2010-10-05 00:20:15 <KingGurke> voluntaryist: you're in windows
 15 2010-10-05 00:20:18 <KingGurke> it's the windows clipboard
 16 2010-10-05 00:20:19 <KingGurke> control v
 17 2010-10-05 00:20:49 <Keefe> i thought he googled it :)
 18 2010-10-05 00:20:53 <voluntaryist> oh, so it is basically a copy function?
 19 2010-10-05 00:20:56 <KingGurke> yes
 20 2010-10-05 00:21:03 <voluntaryist> oh, hahah, ok
 21 2010-10-05 00:21:49 <voluntaryist> How are transactions supposed to be made?
 22 2010-10-05 00:22:22 <voluntaryist> How is a store supposed to run on bitcoins?
 23 2010-10-05 00:22:57 <voluntaryist> Is the store supposed to have wifi, and people walk in with their lap tops?
 24 2010-10-05 00:24:06 <voluntaryist> is bitcoin specific to the computer you installed it in?
 25 2010-10-05 00:24:30 <voluntaryist> is there a way to log on to your bitcoin user on a different computer?
 26 2010-10-05 00:29:55 <voluntaryist> How is a store supposed to run on bitcoins? Is the store supposed to have wifi, and people walk in with their lap tops? Is bitcoin specific to the computer you installed it in? Is there a way to log on to your bitcoin user on a different computer?
 27 2010-10-05 00:30:18 <KingGurke> voluntaryist: i don't think it's really intended to be used in the field
 28 2010-10-05 00:30:20 <KingGurke> mostly online
 29 2010-10-05 00:30:57 <KingGurke> but yeah, you can transfer your wallet with your bitcoins. it's a file on your hard drive
 30 2010-10-05 00:31:22 <voluntaryist> oh, which file?
 31 2010-10-05 00:32:21 <KingGurke> http://www.bitcoin.org/faq#How_do_I_backup_my_wallet
 32 2010-10-05 00:32:23 <KingGurke> wallet
 33 2010-10-05 00:32:46 <KingGurke> it's probably safer just to leave it be and transfer coins from computer to computer if you need to move them
 34 2010-10-05 00:33:12 <voluntaryist> oh, ok
 35 2010-10-05 00:33:37 <voluntaryist> can you have many wallets on one computer?
 36 2010-10-05 00:34:16 <KingGurke> probably
 37 2010-10-05 00:34:27 <KingGurke> (getting sort of out of the realm of my expertise, someone else might know better)
 38 2010-10-05 00:35:35 <ArtForz> theoretically, yes, with the current client and how it's implemented not without jumping through hoops
 39 2010-10-05 00:42:44 <voluntaryist> The read me file says, "It's safer to stop Bitcoin before backing it up, otherwise if you happen to receive a payment at the moment the file is being copied, the backup could be unusable."  How do you stop bitcoin. How do restart it after you've stopped it?
 40 2010-10-05 00:43:05 <voluntaryist> And what is so important about back ups
 41 2010-10-05 00:43:14 <doublec> how do you normally stop programs on your computer?
 42 2010-10-05 00:43:18 <doublec> how do you normally start them?
 43 2010-10-05 00:43:22 <doublec> it's the same with bitcoin
 44 2010-10-05 00:43:54 <kermit> voluntaryist: thats old, just use the makebakup command to bitcoind
 45 2010-10-05 00:44:21 <kermit> voluntaryist: er, 'backupwallet'
 46 2010-10-05 00:44:46 <voluntaryist> that's what I type into my cmd?
 47 2010-10-05 00:45:07 <kermit> voluntaryist: bitcoind backupwallet filname
 48 2010-10-05 00:45:15 <voluntaryist> oh
 49 2010-10-05 00:45:38 <ArtForz> except the's using the gui client
 50 2010-10-05 00:45:50 <kermit> that should always be run with -server
 51 2010-10-05 00:46:27 <voluntaryist> what is valuable about a backup?
 52 2010-10-05 00:46:38 <voluntaryist> can you not make transactions if you don't have a backup?
 53 2010-10-05 00:47:13 <ArtForz> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?do=show&id=backup
 54 2010-10-05 00:47:44 <voluntaryist> ok, thanks, I'll read
 55 2010-10-05 00:54:31 <Keefe> ;estimate
 56 2010-10-05 00:54:37 <bitbot> Keefe: LastDiff(6d 06:56:00 ago)  ExpBlocks(905)  ActualBlocks(883)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/12 19:58:28 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/10/13 04:34:27 GMT)  EstNewDiff(1286.61437767)
 57 2010-10-05 01:11:12 <voluntaryist> In order to back up wallet.dat, do I copy it, make a new folder called "backups" or something, and paste it there?
 58 2010-10-05 01:12:16 <KingGurke> that should work
 59 2010-10-05 01:14:32 <voluntaryist> How does BitCoin know if I backed my wallet up or not? People say I will not lose my money if I back my wallet up, but how does bitcoin know?
 60 2010-10-05 01:15:49 <KingGurke> voluntaryist: if you send someone money and they're trying to rip you off
 61 2010-10-05 01:16:07 <KingGurke> if you have a backup of your wallet you can get it back
 62 2010-10-05 01:16:08 <KingGurke> i think
 63 2010-10-05 01:16:10 <KingGurke> something like that
 64 2010-10-05 01:16:12 <ArtForz> errr, no
 65 2010-10-05 01:16:34 <KingGurke> yeah, i probably shouldn't answer questions
 66 2010-10-05 01:16:34 <voluntaryist> then explain
 67 2010-10-05 01:16:35 <KingGurke> heh
 68 2010-10-05 01:17:08 <voluntaryist> your fine, KingGurke
 69 2010-10-05 01:17:09 <ArtForz> backing up your wallet is mainly so you don't lose all your coins when the wallet gets corrupted by a crash or disk failure or something
 70 2010-10-05 01:17:40 <KingGurke> oh, there you go
 71 2010-10-05 01:17:55 <Keefe> transactions are not reversible. doesn't matter if you restore a backup. if you sent the btc they're gone period
 72 2010-10-05 01:18:06 <ArtForz> yup
 73 2010-10-05 01:19:00 <voluntaryist> Lets say I backup wallet.dat on a flashdrive
 74 2010-10-05 01:19:11 <Keefe> but if you lose that wallet.dat or it gets damaged, and you have no very recent backup, you can never get btc back that you owned, nor can anyone else ever spend that money ever
 75 2010-10-05 01:19:39 <voluntaryist> oh
 76 2010-10-05 01:19:50 <Keefe> keep in mind that everytime you send btc, backed up wallet.dat's can become useless
 77 2010-10-05 01:20:05 <voluntaryist> why?
 78 2010-10-05 01:20:14 <Keefe> because some or all of your money could have been sent to yourself at a new address, as "change"
 79 2010-10-05 01:20:23 <Keefe> the old wallet won't have the key to the new address
 80 2010-10-05 01:20:25 <ArtForz> it's explained on the wiki page
 81 2010-10-05 01:20:36 <voluntaryist> ok
 82 2010-10-05 01:21:16 <nanotube> voluntaryist: just read the 'backup' wiki page, things are explained there fairly clearly.
 83 2010-10-05 01:21:41 <voluntaryist> yea, i did
 84 2010-10-05 01:22:15 <voluntaryist> It doesn't explain some things
 85 2010-10-05 01:22:32 <voluntaryist> If I send some coins
 86 2010-10-05 01:22:54 <voluntaryist> ...then I should backup my wallet on a flash drive
 87 2010-10-05 01:23:11 <dwdollar> If you're paranoid, you should backup after every transaction.
 88 2010-10-05 01:23:14 <Keefe> after every send
 89 2010-10-05 01:23:24 <nanotube> every send and every create new address.
 90 2010-10-05 01:23:32 <Keefe> if you want to be always protected from damage/loss of the wallet
 91 2010-10-05 01:23:44 <nanotube> not so much on receive to existing addresses, since those will get restored from the block chain.
 92 2010-10-05 01:23:49 <voluntaryist> What is it never gets damaged?
 93 2010-10-05 01:23:57 <ArtForz> then you're lucky
 94 2010-10-05 01:24:01 <voluntaryist> what if it never gets damaged
 95 2010-10-05 01:24:06 <voluntaryist> then im lucky
 96 2010-10-05 01:24:10 <voluntaryist> ok
 97 2010-10-05 01:24:20 <nanotube> then you don't have to do anything. that's the point of backups. you back up "just in case" something happens. if nothing happens, be happy. :)
 98 2010-10-05 01:24:22 <Keefe> just like backing up any computer data
 99 2010-10-05 01:24:36 <voluntaryist> oh, ok
100 2010-10-05 01:24:42 <Keefe> if you backup your hard drive everyday and your drive never fails. you're lucky
101 2010-10-05 01:25:54 <voluntaryist> OK lets say I'm a bitcoin millionare on my laptop. I backup my wallet.dat on a flash drive. My computer blows up. Then what do I do with the flashdrive?
102 2010-10-05 01:26:08 <Keefe> copy the wallet back to a new computer
103 2010-10-05 01:26:12 <ArtForz> yep
104 2010-10-05 01:26:18 <ArtForz> just install bitcoin on a new computer and copy back your wallet.dat
105 2010-10-05 01:29:35 <voluntaryist> can i copy my wallet.dat and paste it again, so I have twice as much money?
106 2010-10-05 01:30:17 <voluntaryist> How does BitCoin know its fake?
107 2010-10-05 01:32:11 <voluntaryist> Does the Wallet.dat file constantly change? After every transaction. the wallet.dat file changes?
108 2010-10-05 01:32:59 <nanotube> voluntaryist: i think you should just read about how bitcoin works by exploring the website and the wiki. :) then come back if you still have questions. you'll learn a lot more that way.
109 2010-10-05 01:36:09 <jgarzik> voluntaryist: the transaction record is public on the P2P network.  it doesn't matter how many wallet.dat copies you have.  you can still only spend your coins once.
110 2010-10-05 01:36:36 <jgarzik> voluntaryist: you can destroy your coins permanently by deleting wallet.dat, but you cannot gain coins by copying wallet.dat.
111 2010-10-05 01:55:16 <voluntaryist> Why should you change your address after every payment you send or receive?
112 2010-10-05 01:55:31 <voluntaryist> does it matter which?
113 2010-10-05 02:00:48 <voluntaryist> Would it be unwise to openly state your bitcoin address?
114 2010-10-05 02:03:05 <nanotube> voluntaryist: if you're looking to improve your anonymity, yes. if you don't care about the anonymity, it doesn't matter.
115 2010-10-05 02:04:50 <voluntaryist> You could switch between being anonymous and not being anonymous. You could choose to sick your head up for one week, never changing the address. But after that week, a person could switch address and now that person is anonymous
116 2010-10-05 02:05:07 <voluntaryist> sick->stick
117 2010-10-05 02:05:30 <voluntaryist> Why would you want to be anonymous?
118 2010-10-05 02:05:46 <nanotube> read the wiki page about anonymity if you're curious about the details
119 2010-10-05 02:06:21 <nanotube> some people may not want others to know they buy horse porn, e.g., or various psychoactive substances that governments tend to frown upon, etc.
120 2010-10-05 02:06:35 <nanotube> there are cases when you want to be anonymous. :)
121 2010-10-05 02:06:51 <voluntaryist> oh, ok
122 2010-10-05 02:07:13 <voluntaryist> but lets say I'm a company that sells T-shirts. Then I have no reason to care.
123 2010-10-05 02:07:22 <nanotube> voluntaryist: indeed
124 2010-10-05 02:07:38 <nanotube> (though you'd still want to generate a new address for each purchase - because otherwise you have no way to tell /who/ sent you payment.)
125 2010-10-05 02:10:04 <voluntaryist> How could I tell who sent me payment?
126 2010-10-05 02:10:26 <voluntaryist> You can't put your name on the payment.
127 2010-10-05 02:10:52 <doublec> if you only gave your payment address to one person, you'd assume that person paid you if you receive money through it
128 2010-10-05 02:11:10 <voluntaryist> true
129 2010-10-05 02:11:14 <KingGurke> when you send payments, there's a place for a message
130 2010-10-05 02:11:26 <doublec> that's why a shopping site might generate unique addresses for each purchase
131 2010-10-05 02:11:28 <KingGurke> maybe you could generate some sort of unique id for each user to pay with
132 2010-10-05 02:11:30 <KingGurke> would that work?
133 2010-10-05 02:11:35 <doublec> KingGurke, that's only for IP basd payments
134 2010-10-05 02:11:41 <doublec> s/basd/based
135 2010-10-05 02:11:52 <doublec> which are generally considered a bad idea
136 2010-10-05 02:12:01 <nanotube> KingGurke: messages are only possible for ip-based payments, and those are... strongly discouraged. so in short... no messages.
137 2010-10-05 02:12:04 <KingGurke> oh
138 2010-10-05 02:12:08 <KingGurke> ok, yeah, didn't know that
139 2010-10-05 02:12:09 <KingGurke> i see
140 2010-10-05 02:12:32 <doublec> the payment address is really the unique id anyway so you might as well use that
141 2010-10-05 02:12:45 <KingGurke> ah
142 2010-10-05 02:13:05 <jgarzik> assuming the payment address is, indeed, unique :)
143 2010-10-05 02:13:11 <doublec> yes :)
144 2010-10-05 02:18:19 <voluntaryist> I turn on my computer my computer. I instant message my friend my bit$ address. I tell him to pay me 20bit$. I disconnect from the internet. He sends 20bit$. I reconnect. What will happen? Will he get an error, or will the payment just be waiting for me when I reconnect?
145 2010-10-05 02:19:01 <voluntaryist> ?
146 2010-10-05 02:23:35 <nanotube> voluntaryist: it will be just fine
147 2010-10-05 02:23:45 <nanotube> you will be able to get the transaction from the network when you reconnect
148 2010-10-05 02:24:00 <nanotube> voluntaryist_: it will be just fine
149 2010-10-05 02:24:01 <nanotube> you will be able to get the transaction from the network when you reconnect
150 2010-10-05 02:24:23 <jgarzik> too funny.  ExchangeZone.com has a button "request arbitrage" ;-)
151 2010-10-05 02:24:25 <voluntaryist_> oh, ok
152 2010-10-05 02:24:29 <jgarzik> they mean arbitration.
153 2010-10-05 02:24:39 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha
154 2010-10-05 02:24:51 <voluntaryist_> why is that funny?
155 2010-10-05 02:25:04 <voluntaryist_> what does that mean?
156 2010-10-05 02:25:37 <jgarzik> voluntaryist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage   versus   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration
157 2010-10-05 02:25:50 <nanotube> ;;dict arbitrage
158 2010-10-05 02:26:04 <gribble> wn: arbitrage n : a kind of hedged investment meant to capture slight differences in price; when there is a difference in the price of something on two different markets the arbitrageur simultaneously buys at the lower price and sells at the higher price v : practice arbitrage, as in the stock market
159 2010-10-05 02:26:43 <nanotube> ;;dict arbitration
160 2010-10-05 02:27:03 <gribble> wn: arbitration n 1: (law) the hearing and determination of a dispute by an impartial referee agreed to by both parties (often used to settle disputes between labor and management) 2: the act of deciding as an arbiter; giving authoritative judgment; "they submitted their disagreement to arbitration" [syn: {arbitrament}, {arbitrement}]
161 2010-10-05 02:27:18 <jgarzik> the first line of the Arbitrage page even says "not to be confused with arbitration" ;-)
162 2010-10-05 02:27:29 <nanotube> hehe nice
163 2010-10-05 02:27:51 <nanotube> but he's pinged out anyway, so he didn't see any of that
164 2010-10-05 02:27:57 <voluntaryist_> me?
165 2010-10-05 02:28:11 <voluntaryist_> I see
166 2010-10-05 02:28:32 <voluntaryist_> They both have to do with business
167 2010-10-05 02:29:08 <jgarzik> voluntaryist_: one is a risk-free profit, and the other is resolving a dispute
168 2010-10-05 02:29:12 <jgarzik> apples and oranges
169 2010-10-05 02:30:39 <voluntaryist_> Have you heard of private arbitration companies?
170 2010-10-05 02:30:51 <voluntaryist_> The government system sucks so bad
171 2010-10-05 02:31:12 <voluntaryist_> that people are going to private court systems to reslove contractual disputes
172 2010-10-05 02:34:32 <voluntaryist_> I can't wait til the government is useless
173 2010-10-05 02:35:23 <voluntaryist_> I am going to design a website that functions on bitcoins
174 2010-10-05 02:37:21 <redengin> too bad the govt owns the internet too
175 2010-10-05 02:38:33 <voluntaryist_> We can use Tor and stuff, though?
176 2010-10-05 02:38:49 <nanotube> too bad we still need things like law enforcement.
177 2010-10-05 02:39:00 <redengin> because tor uses magical pipes?
178 2010-10-05 02:39:02 <nanotube> wild wild west was no fun for people doing the 'getting killed'
179 2010-10-05 02:39:03 <voluntaryist_> that can be provided privately
180 2010-10-05 02:39:39 <redengin> lol, because lots of private orgs have the labor and resources necessary to manage a global utility
181 2010-10-05 02:39:45 <LobsterMan> ;nr
182 2010-10-05 02:39:48 <bitbot> LobsterMan: CurrentBlockCount( 83,548 blocks ) CurrentDifficulty( 1,318.6704550300 ) NextDifficultyAt( 84,672 blocks ) NextDifficultyIn( 1,124 blocks )
183 2010-10-05 02:39:53 <LobsterMan> ;estimate
184 2010-10-05 02:39:54 <bitbot> LobsterMan: LastDiff(6d 08:41:18 ago)  ExpBlocks(916)  ActualBlocks(892)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/12 19:58:28 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/10/13 05:03:49 GMT)  EstNewDiff(1284.12013743)
185 2010-10-05 02:40:24 <LobsterMan> does the diff tend to decrease over time or does it stay kind of level?
186 2010-10-05 02:41:07 <nanotube> LobsterMan: up to now, it has tended to increase
187 2010-10-05 02:41:21 <nanotube> but it seems that there has been a drop in generation capacity lately, hence the drop
188 2010-10-05 02:41:22 <voluntaryist_> The wild west was better off without government, The biggest gunfight in the wild west was the O.K. coral. 3 people died. In the present day, I don't even think that could make a headline.
189 2010-10-05 02:42:02 <voluntaryist_> Its fine though
190 2010-10-05 02:42:09 <KingGurke> i guess, the government causes problems in very specific areas. like drugs. if you take drug related killings out, it's probably a lot better
191 2010-10-05 02:42:10 <redengin> and they had the finest medical care and ample food
192 2010-10-05 02:42:32 <voluntaryist_> Government makes everything worse
193 2010-10-05 02:42:46 <voluntaryist_> Anyways, stepping besides philosphy
194 2010-10-05 02:43:25 <voluntaryist_> I like how BitCoin currency is decentralized
195 2010-10-05 02:43:42 <voluntaryist_> Doesn't it have to be centralized to some degree though?
196 2010-10-05 02:43:53 <voluntaryist_> Who updates the system?
197 2010-10-05 02:44:02 <voluntaryist_> Don't they have power over currency?
198 2010-10-05 02:44:10 <redengin> voluntaryist_, ppl adopt the rules by upgrading their client
199 2010-10-05 02:44:26 <Netsniper> voluntaryist_: you argument make more assumtions than people that died in all the govt wars combined
200 2010-10-05 02:45:21 <voluntaryist_> Still, your argument supports mine. The result of Government is death
201 2010-10-05 02:46:03 <redengin> hmm, last time I checked the result of life is death
202 2010-10-05 02:46:56 <KingGurke> haha
203 2010-10-05 02:56:19 <redengin> lol, this moron on tv is running 50mi a day, watch him die
204 2010-10-05 03:24:11 <jgarzik> hey, finally, a realistic LRUSD asking price on BCM
205 2010-10-05 03:25:03 <nanotube> heh yea
206 2010-10-05 03:30:34 <jgarzik> weird, gribble-bot only duplicates -some- of the last few trades @ mtgox
207 2010-10-05 03:39:21 <nanotube> isn't paypal's interest on the balance, even with their "money market account", ridiculously small?
208 2010-10-05 03:39:58 <nanotube> jgarzik: yea, the code decides if a tx is 'new' by looking at the timestamp... my guess is that mtgox's time is offset from gribbles time, which creates these dupes...
209 2010-10-05 03:40:43 <jgarzik> nanotube: why not just store last-seen mtgox time, and not care at all about gribble-time?  :)
210 2010-10-05 03:41:09 <nanotube> jgarzik: yes... there are many better approaches. :) just as soon as i get around to updating the code. hehe.
211 2010-10-05 03:42:26 <jgarzik> it's been pretty useful, as a general query tool
212 2010-10-05 03:42:27 <nathan7> niekie!
213 2010-10-05 03:42:34 <nathan7> or fahadsadah
214 2010-10-05 03:43:39 <nanotube> jgarzik: hmm cool... think i should host a complete backlog of all mtg trades on a website somewhere? :)
215 2010-10-05 03:44:20 <jgarzik> nanotube: <shrug>  might be interesting to others
216 2010-10-05 03:44:26 <jgarzik> disappointing he doesn't post it, himself.
217 2010-10-05 03:44:51 <jgarzik> dwdollar has been great, really responsive and he posts all the trade/bid/ask data.  in multiple formats and venues, even.
218 2010-10-05 03:45:27 <nanotube> mmm
219 2010-10-05 04:16:43 <necrodearia> woo, Sirius!
220 2010-10-05 04:17:04 <necrodearia> welcome back ^_^
221 2010-10-05 04:21:28 <necrodearia> Sirius, Good that you returned, because apparently as channel founder if you do not appear after only 60 days someone may request for your nickname to be unregistered/dropped and channels registered by your account would be kind of hard to reestablish/regain ownership I believe.
222 2010-10-05 04:22:44 <necrodearia> Sirius, If you haven't already, you may want to consider http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml
223 2010-10-05 04:23:04 <necrodearia> Alystair, has as well I believe, but maybe you should too.
224 2010-10-05 04:24:30 <necrodearia> Additionally if you have any related comments or questions, #Freenode may offer further assistance.
225 2010-10-05 06:50:38 <grondilu> Hi.  If I generate a new address, I can still receive bitcoins sent to my previous addresses, right ?
226 2010-10-05 06:52:58 <grondilu> I mean, that's what the addr.dat file is, isn't it ?
227 2010-10-05 06:53:16 <grondilu> s/is,/is for/
228 2010-10-05 06:58:30 <m0mchil> grondilu, addr.dat is for network nodes
229 2010-10-05 06:58:46 <m0mchil> however, your previous addresses/private keys are in wallet.dat
230 2010-10-05 06:59:23 <grondilu> so I indeed can receive bitcoins sent to my previous addresses ?
231 2010-10-05 07:03:07 <grondilu> see:  that's why I hate logs.  I know it's kind of a silly question I'm asking.  But I prefer to ask it anyway.  Still, I hate the idea that it's recorded.
232 2010-10-05 07:04:53 <m0mchil> yes, you can
233 2010-10-05 07:05:09 <grondilu> ok, thks
234 2010-10-05 07:06:18 <grondilu> so if I'm expecting a paiement, I don't have to wait for it before I generate a new address.  I hope I get it right.
235 2010-10-05 07:12:26 <Keefe> right
236 2010-10-05 07:13:08 <m0mchil> :) the only problem with addresses is you can't remove one if you don't need it... at least don't know how
237 2010-10-05 07:16:11 <grondilu> ok, fine.  thks
238 2010-10-05 07:17:07 <Keefe> why ever delete an address?
239 2010-10-05 07:17:37 <Keefe> well, i mean, you should never delete old keys
240 2010-10-05 07:18:15 <Keefe> but i suppose it would be nice to remove addresses from the address book even though their keys are kept in the wallet
241 2010-10-05 07:18:36 <Keefe> just hide them
242 2010-10-05 07:19:18 <Keefe> but if you delete the key for an address, there's still the chance (however remote) that someone sends btc to the old address
243 2010-10-05 07:19:40 <Keefe> if you've deleted the key, the btc are forever lost
244 2010-10-05 07:46:18 <noagendamarket> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ZRBdbkZkI   I made a bitcoin search story  :)
245 2010-10-05 08:05:29 <Insti> ;estimate
246 2010-10-05 08:15:07 <Keefe> ;estimate
247 2010-10-05 08:15:32 <Keefe> was working earlier
248 2010-10-05 08:20:30 <Keefe> it would say that estimated next diff is 1280
249 2010-10-05 08:20:54 <Keefe> 1319 currently
250 2010-10-05 08:21:55 <Keefe> almost a week since the last adjust, and we're doing 3% less than the average of the previous 2016 blocks
251 2010-10-05 08:23:16 <Diablo-D3> that'd be amazing if it went down
252 2010-10-05 08:24:40 <Keefe> i'd be shocked
253 2010-10-05 08:24:46 <Keefe> but happy for my sake
254 2010-10-05 08:30:39 <Diablo-D3> and somewhere ArtForz is getting richer on his gpu farm >_>
255 2010-10-05 09:43:10 <doublec> how are websites that take bitcoin payments dealing with waiting for confirmations? For example an amazon-like site - would it provide an address for payment, user pays to the address, then the user has to visit back in 10 minutes and refresh/keep visiting until the site says confirmation is received?
256 2010-10-05 09:44:19 <Diablo-D3> doublec: amazon holds orders until credit card confirmations
257 2010-10-05 09:44:21 <doublec> Maybe some ajaxy/comet thing so the page updates automagically when payment is confirmed?
258 2010-10-05 09:44:23 <Diablo-D3> so thats not really big.
259 2010-10-05 09:44:28 <doublec> rue
260 2010-10-05 09:44:30 <Diablo-D3> just have the site email on order confirmation
261 2010-10-05 09:44:31 <doublec> true
262 2010-10-05 09:44:38 <doublec> yeah I guess that's an approach
263 2010-10-05 09:44:49 <Diablo-D3> users expect emails for that anyhow
264 2010-10-05 09:46:14 <doublec> I guess the site can request all informatoin (shipping details, etc) before payment is confirmed. and the confirmation of the payment from bitcoin triggers the actual back end processing for the order and emails the user.
265 2010-10-05 10:19:43 <Diablo-D3> hey m0mchil, around?
266 2010-10-05 10:20:49 <m0mchil> yup
267 2010-10-05 10:27:40 <Diablo-D3> do me a favor
268 2010-10-05 10:27:56 <Diablo-D3> you can auto-optimize the globalThread size
269 2010-10-05 10:28:12 <Diablo-D3> and do a time measure inside of the inner loop
270 2010-10-05 10:28:40 <Diablo-D3> measure if the loop is taking longer than 1/60th of a second, subtract 256 from globalThread
271 2010-10-05 10:28:47 <Diablo-D3> if its taking less, add 256
272 2010-10-05 10:28:54 <Diablo-D3> well
273 2010-10-05 10:28:59 <Diablo-D3> yeah.
274 2010-10-05 10:29:08 <Diablo-D3> er no
275 2010-10-05 10:29:15 <Diablo-D3> WORK_GROUP_SIZE * 256
276 2010-10-05 10:29:22 <Diablo-D3> add and subtract those
277 2010-10-05 10:30:14 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: so it'll automatically maintain sane desktop usability
278 2010-10-05 10:30:20 <Diablo-D3> while being most optimum
279 2010-10-05 10:31:07 <m0mchil> how did you get the 1/60th number
280 2010-10-05 10:37:33 <m0mchil> WORK_GROUP_SIZE * 256 is too coarse imo
281 2010-10-05 11:22:55 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: as in 60fps
282 2010-10-05 11:23:20 <Diablo-D3> the driver cant unsched a program
283 2010-10-05 11:23:30 <Diablo-D3> but will happily cycle between two
284 2010-10-05 11:23:45 <Diablo-D3> so if you send it a program that takes seconds, your program wont return for awhile
285 2010-10-05 11:23:58 <Diablo-D3> and the desktop turns to shit
286 2010-10-05 11:24:05 <Diablo-D3> so 60fps works great here.
287 2010-10-05 11:24:14 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: and no, I dont think its too coarse
288 2010-10-05 11:32:21 <m0mchil> yeah, I realized it myself... its ok
289 2010-10-05 11:33:29 <Diablo-D3> but hey, if you think thats too coarse
290 2010-10-05 11:33:32 <Diablo-D3> do WORK_GROUP_SIZE
291 2010-10-05 11:33:40 <Diablo-D3> and default to like * 2048
292 2010-10-05 11:34:54 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: btw, question
293 2010-10-05 11:35:00 <Diablo-D3> why are you using uint everwhere?
294 2010-10-05 11:35:48 <Diablo-D3> you should use exactly the size you need
295 2010-10-05 11:37:11 <m0mchil> yeah it doesn't matter
296 2010-10-05 11:37:46 <Diablo-D3> it MAY matter on some hardware
297 2010-10-05 11:39:16 <m0mchil> just pushed to git
298 2010-10-05 11:39:34 <m0mchil> github
299 2010-10-05 11:40:29 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: 60, not 30.
300 2010-10-05 11:40:33 <Diablo-D3> and yes, it actually does matter
301 2010-10-05 11:44:02 <m0mchil> this value is quite subjective, on my machine it looks ok
302 2010-10-05 11:44:24 <Diablo-D3> actually, on your eyeballs
303 2010-10-05 11:44:40 <m0mchil> thanks, on my eyeballs
304 2010-10-05 11:44:50 <Diablo-D3> on everybody else's eyeballs, it'll be too slow
305 2010-10-05 11:45:15 <m0mchil> it's a script after all
306 2010-10-05 11:45:18 <Diablo-D3> theres no performance issue with changing it to 60, it just makes sure X will update the display every 60
307 2010-10-05 11:47:52 <m0mchil> actually my desktop is fine even with -f 24... quite acceptable would say
308 2010-10-05 11:48:07 <Diablo-D3> sure you're calculating this right?
309 2010-10-05 11:48:55 <Diablo-D3> yeah its very obvious thats way too high on my machine
310 2010-10-05 11:50:05 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: remember, your khash meter updates once per inner loop run
311 2010-10-05 11:50:15 <Diablo-D3> if it looks like its updating slower, you've gone too far
312 2010-10-05 11:51:27 <m0mchil> hm, the idea was to update every 10 kernel runs
313 2010-10-05 11:51:42 <Diablo-D3> should be adjusted EVERY kernel run
314 2010-10-05 11:51:44 <Diablo-D3> as needed
315 2010-10-05 11:51:50 <m0mchil> now it deviates from time to time
316 2010-10-05 11:55:47 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: hey, how the hell does sys.stdout.write work?
317 2010-10-05 11:56:12 <Diablo-D3> it looks like printf but doesnt seem to be
318 2010-10-05 11:56:33 <Diablo-D3> I want it to output globalThreads size too
319 2010-10-05 11:57:35 <m0mchil> see how the nonce is printed... you should add an '\n'
320 2010-10-05 11:58:08 <Diablo-D3> so I mean, I wanna have it with that
321 2010-10-05 11:58:15 <Diablo-D3> but whats this '' % foo stuff?
322 2010-10-05 12:05:17 <Diablo-D3> wow
323 2010-10-05 12:05:19 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: python sucks
324 2010-10-05 12:05:33 <Diablo-D3> apparently I have to change it to % (foo,bar) to add more args
325 2010-10-05 12:06:56 <m0mchil> now with the getwork() patch you could use whatever you want
326 2010-10-05 12:07:08 <Diablo-D3> yes, but then I have to write it
327 2010-10-05 12:07:13 <Diablo-D3> its easier to have you maintain it
328 2010-10-05 12:08:46 <Diablo-D3> 
329 2010-10-05 12:08:47 <dsg> Diablo-D3: You don't seem to have even a basic understanding of the syntax, and you've already decided it sucks? :)
330 2010-10-05 12:09:02 <Diablo-D3> dsg: programming has already decided on a sane syntax
331 2010-10-05 12:09:14 <Diablo-D3> python decided to not use that syntax just because it could
332 2010-10-05 12:09:26 <dsg> haha
333 2010-10-05 12:09:40 <Diablo-D3> thats not a good design decision
334 2010-10-05 12:09:45 <dsg> Which syntax was that?
335 2010-10-05 12:09:51 <dsg> kinda-C-ish?
336 2010-10-05 12:09:57 <Diablo-D3> most people call it C
337 2010-10-05 12:10:04 <duck1123> lisp
338 2010-10-05 12:10:11 <m0mchil> syntax is transient
339 2010-10-05 12:10:17 <Diablo-D3> most languages use some sort of C-like syntax
340 2010-10-05 12:10:23 <dsg> Diablo-D3: Right, all programs are written in C, since 1970. Got it.
341 2010-10-05 12:10:26 <Diablo-D3> anything else makes it harder for existing programmers to even GIVE a shit about other languages that aren't C-like
342 2010-10-05 12:10:42 <Diablo-D3> dsg: most languages do use some sort of syntax like C.
343 2010-10-05 12:10:59 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: so yeah, assuming the above printf
344 2010-10-05 12:11:04 <Diablo-D3> it says 7424 for me
345 2010-10-05 12:11:12 <Diablo-D3> which is a far bit too much, I wonder why
346 2010-10-05 12:11:36 <Diablo-D3> if I set --frames to 60, its still 3840
347 2010-10-05 12:11:54 <m0mchil> what should it be?
348 2010-10-05 12:12:03 <Diablo-D3> well I had it stuck at 1536
349 2010-10-05 12:12:35 <Diablo-D3> using 256 granularity, 768 was as many as I needed to go full speed, and I doubled it
350 2010-10-05 12:13:02 <m0mchil> how it behaves now? with 3840?
351 2010-10-05 12:13:12 <Diablo-D3> just a tad too slow
352 2010-10-05 12:13:14 <Diablo-D3> its noticable
353 2010-10-05 12:13:35 <Diablo-D3> 7xxx was horrendous
354 2010-10-05 12:14:50 <m0mchil> please print 'upper' and 'lower' vars
355 2010-10-05 12:15:10 <m0mchil> this is what actually should be the kernel execution time
356 2010-10-05 12:15:15 <Diablo-D3> @30 I get 58 mhash, @60 I get 58 mhash, @90 I get 57 mhash and it seems to be working well
357 2010-10-05 12:15:19 <Diablo-D3> just a sec
358 2010-10-05 12:15:35 <Diablo-D3> 90 = 2560 though, its not too far off from what I chose
359 2010-10-05 12:17:06 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: @ 60, its between 16 and 17ms
360 2010-10-05 12:17:11 <Diablo-D3> which is "correct"
361 2010-10-05 12:17:28 <Diablo-D3> but that technically leaves no time to run the video program
362 2010-10-05 12:17:34 <m0mchil> well, I'm out of ideas about this
363 2010-10-05 12:17:55 <Diablo-D3> I have no way of measuring the overhead of running video
364 2010-10-05 12:17:58 <Diablo-D3> and I doubt its zero
365 2010-10-05 12:18:52 <Diablo-D3> hrm interesting
366 2010-10-05 12:18:59 <Diablo-D3> 120 gives me 1792
367 2010-10-05 12:19:02 <Diablo-D3> which is very close to what I chose
368 2010-10-05 12:19:11 <Diablo-D3> and still gives me 57 mhash
369 2010-10-05 12:19:53 <m0mchil> good... what else are you using the video for?
370 2010-10-05 12:20:02 <Diablo-D3> just displaying 2D at the moment
371 2010-10-05 12:20:20 <Diablo-D3> 150 gives 1536
372 2010-10-05 12:20:56 <m0mchil> watching youtube drains some juice, definitely... even if it's 2D
373 2010-10-05 12:21:01 <Diablo-D3> 150 and up cuts it too far
374 2010-10-05 12:21:09 <Diablo-D3> so I think the default of 120 may give the best
375 2010-10-05 12:21:18 <Diablo-D3> 120 is the highest I can go before it slows down
376 2010-10-05 12:21:25 <Diablo-D3> 150 is about 54, 180 and 240 are about 52
377 2010-10-05 12:21:51 <Diablo-D3> so 120 maintains desktop usability and also quits shoving out more complex apps
378 2010-10-05 12:24:02 <Diablo-D3> so, change the default to 120 would have least shit for most users I bet
379 2010-10-05 12:25:21 <Diablo-D3> and it slows down great that that speed
380 2010-10-05 12:25:34 <Diablo-D3> launch full screen video, it doesnt totally rape it
381 2010-10-05 12:25:52 <m0mchil> what I see is that when there is some other load on the GPU it stutters briefly until globalThreads to a new value... in about 1 second
382 2010-10-05 12:26:06 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt for me
383 2010-10-05 12:26:13 <Diablo-D3> it just totally owns it
384 2010-10-05 12:26:53 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: do a test on your machine
385 2010-10-05 12:27:03 <Diablo-D3> keep adding 30 to --frames until you significantly slow down
386 2010-10-05 12:27:10 <m0mchil> 120 decreases performance here by 7-10%
387 2010-10-05 12:27:15 <Diablo-D3> really?
388 2010-10-05 12:27:41 <Diablo-D3> shouldnt.
389 2010-10-05 12:27:45 <m0mchil> there just isn't an universal value... just use the switch
390 2010-10-05 12:29:40 <Diablo-D3> when does it slow down for you?
391 2010-10-05 12:31:10 <m0mchil> 60 - ~3% slower
392 2010-10-05 12:31:41 <Diablo-D3> what about 90?
393 2010-10-05 12:31:53 <m0mchil> worse
394 2010-10-05 12:31:56 <Diablo-D3> how worse?
395 2010-10-05 12:32:39 <m0mchil> :) you are an inquisitor, literally... 5-6%
396 2010-10-05 12:32:58 <Diablo-D3> well I'd test it myself, but I dont have a radeon 5000
397 2010-10-05 12:33:12 <Diablo-D3> hrm, 60 could be a good default then
398 2010-10-05 12:33:20 <Diablo-D3> most users would expect that level of performance
399 2010-10-05 12:33:25 <Diablo-D3> people like you could set 30
400 2010-10-05 12:33:30 <Diablo-D3> people like me could set 120
401 2010-10-05 12:34:01 <m0mchil> ok, will fix rate calculation first
402 2010-10-05 12:47:08 <nanotube> Keefe_: as to 'why you'd ever delete an address'... think of a service provider that generates new addresses for customers all the time. without the ability to delete old addresses, a wallet can grow infinitely by accumulating old cruft.
403 2010-10-05 12:48:12 <nanotube> Keefe_: so ideally, a service provider would want to delete the one-time-use addresses that are generated for a specific transaction after the transaction is complete (plus some delay).
404 2010-10-05 13:16:24 <m0mchil> Diablo-D3, default frames 60, fixed hash rate calculation are @ github