1 2010-10-08 00:00:05 <Kiba> is there a Japanese language page on bitcoin?
2 2010-10-08 00:00:26 <jgarzik> we need Japanese and Chinese translations of bitcoin pages, ASAP :)
3 2010-10-08 00:02:18 <Kiba> I am happy with the EFF effort
4 2010-10-08 00:02:20 <Kiba> it paid off
5 2010-10-08 00:04:08 <Kiba> mtgox was once paid right?
6 2010-10-08 00:04:45 <mtgox> well I think the mtgox buying spree is fraud actually. He probably doesn't realize there is a waiting period
7 2010-10-08 00:05:22 <doublec> interesting, why do you think that?
8 2010-10-08 00:06:52 <mtgox> oh well maybe not. I thought he just joined today but he has been around for awhile
9 2010-10-08 00:09:16 <Kiba`> ;mtgox
10 2010-10-08 00:09:18 <bitbot> Kiba`: Mt. Gox: Last(0.077) High(0.08) Low(0.0628) BestSellPrice(0.0701) BestBuyPrice(0.077) Volume(63603)
11 2010-10-08 00:09:20 <Kiba`> hello
12 2010-10-08 00:09:23 <Kiba`> ;mtgox
13 2010-10-08 00:09:24 <bitbot> Kiba`: Mt. Gox: Last(0.077) High(0.08) Low(0.0628) BestSellPrice(0.0701) BestBuyPrice(0.077) Volume(63603)
14 2010-10-08 00:09:31 <kiba> outrageous volume, ain't it?
15 2010-10-08 00:11:22 <kiba> crazy dizzling height
16 2010-10-08 00:12:13 <jgarzik> ;bcsell 6300
17 2010-10-08 00:12:15 <bitbot> jgarzik: I do not understand "6300."
18 2010-10-08 00:12:18 <jgarzik> ;bcsell 6300BTC
19 2010-10-08 00:12:20 <bitbot> jgarzik: $0.079 each for BTC1000 ($79) at bcm:pp. $0.076 each for BTC100 ($7.6) at mtg. $0.07006 each for BTC345.5 ($24.20573) at mtg. $0.07001 each for BTC577.65 ($40.4412765) at mtg. $0.07 each for BTC4276.85 ($299.3795) at mtg. Total amount for BTC6300 is $450.6265065
20 2010-10-08 00:12:30 <jgarzik> ;bcsell 63000BTC
21 2010-10-08 00:12:31 <bitbot> jgarzik: $0.079 each for BTC1000 ($79) at bcm:pp. $0.076 each for BTC100 ($7.6) at mtg. $0.07006 each for BTC345.5 ($24.20573) at mtg. $0.07001 each for BTC577.65 ($40.4412765) at mtg. $0.07 each for BTC27035.75 ($1892.5025) at mtg. $0.06901 each for BTC301.76 ($20.8244576) at mtg. $0.06801 each for BTC243.46 ($16.5577146) at mtg. $0.06771 each for BTC400 ($27.084) at mtg. $0.067 each for
22 2010-10-08 00:12:32 <bitbot> jgarzik: BTC1000 ($67) at bcm:pp. $0.06601 each for BTC2392.595 ($157.93519595) at mtg. $0.065 each for BTC1853 ($120.445) at mtg. $0.0642 each for BTC0 ($0) at mtg. $0.0635 each for BTC100 ($6.35) at mtg. $0.063 each for BTC256.349 ($16.149987) at mtg. $0.0629 each for BTC269 ($16.9201) at mtg. $0.0625 each for BTC300.08 ($18.755) at mtg. $0.0624 each for BTC674.038 ($42.0599712) at mtg. (2 more messages)
23 2010-10-08 00:13:01 <doublec> is there anything bitbot can't do?
24 2010-10-08 00:13:10 <jgarzik> so around $4500. that's not much to a "real" investor
25 2010-10-08 00:13:22 <jgarzik> just wait until someone drops $100K on bitcoin one day
26 2010-10-08 00:13:34 <doublec> that would be half the coins in existance wouldn't it?
27 2010-10-08 00:13:44 <mtgox> 1/3
28 2010-10-08 00:13:58 <jgarzik> doublec: http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
29 2010-10-08 00:14:07 <doublec> thanks
30 2010-10-08 00:14:08 <MacRohard> ;bcsell 45000
31 2010-10-08 00:14:11 <bitbot> MacRohard: I do not understand "45000."
32 2010-10-08 00:14:19 <MacRohard> ;bcsell 45000BTC
33 2010-10-08 00:14:21 <bitbot> MacRohard: $0.079 each for BTC1000 ($79) at bcm:pp. $0.076 each for BTC100 ($7.6) at mtg. $0.072 each for BTC20 ($1.44) at mtg. $0.071 each for BTC20 ($1.42) at mtg. $0.07006 each for BTC345.5 ($24.20573) at mtg. $0.07001 each for BTC577.65 ($40.4412765) at mtg. $0.07 each for BTC27055.75 ($1893.9025) at mtg. $0.06901 each for BTC301.76 ($20.8244576) at mtg. $0.06801 each for BTC243.46
34 2010-10-08 00:14:22 <bitbot> MacRohard: ($16.5577146) at mtg. $0.06771 each for BTC400 ($27.084) at mtg. $0.067 each for BTC1000 ($67) at bcm:pp. $0.06601 each for BTC2392.595 ($157.93519595) at mtg. $0.065 each for BTC1853 ($120.445) at mtg. $0.0642 each for BTC0 ($0) at mtg. $0.0635 each for BTC100 ($6.35) at mtg. $0.063 each for BTC256.349 ($16.149987) at mtg. $0.0629 each for BTC269 ($16.9201) at mtg. $0.0625 each (1 more message)
35 2010-10-08 00:14:56 <MacRohard> all i really want is the final amount :P
36 2010-10-08 00:15:04 <jgarzik> bitbot appears to examine each bid, which means it chokes before giving the final amount :/
37 2010-10-08 00:15:09 <ArtForz> wassnt that smth like total?
38 2010-10-08 00:15:38 <jgarzik> ;math 45000 * 0.08
39 2010-10-08 00:15:48 <jgarzik> ;calc 45000 * 0.08
40 2010-10-08 00:16:06 <kiba> In July, I brought six dollars worth of bitcoins and transformed it into 10 bucks today
41 2010-10-08 00:16:58 <jgarzik> Perfect Money's API permits < $10 payments via mobile phone SMS. That's pretty neat.
42 2010-10-08 00:17:06 <jgarzik> I should add SMS as a payment method to Bitcoin Store.
43 2010-10-08 00:17:17 <ArtForz> ;bcsell 40000btc total
44 2010-10-08 00:17:18 <bitbot> ArtForz: Total amount for BTC40000 is $2760.42492765
45 2010-10-08 00:17:33 <MacRohard> nice
46 2010-10-08 00:19:38 <kiba> ;bcsell 63603
47 2010-10-08 00:19:41 <bitbot> kiba: I do not understand "63603."
48 2010-10-08 00:20:30 <MacRohard> ;bcsell 63603BTC
49 2010-10-08 00:20:31 <bitbot> MacRohard: $0.079 each for BTC1000 ($79) at bcm:pp. $0.07602 each for BTC100 ($7.602) at mtg. $0.076 each for BTC100 ($7.6) at mtg. $0.072 each for BTC20 ($1.44) at mtg. $0.071 each for BTC20 ($1.42) at mtg. $0.07001 each for BTC577.65 ($40.4412765) at mtg. $0.07 each for BTC27055.75 ($1893.9025) at mtg. $0.06901 each for BTC301.76 ($20.8244576) at mtg. $0.06801 each for BTC243.46
50 2010-10-08 00:20:32 <bitbot> MacRohard: ($16.5577146) at mtg. $0.068 each for BTC2000 ($136) at mtg. $0.06771 each for BTC400 ($27.084) at mtg. $0.067 each for BTC1000 ($67) at bcm:pp. $0.06601 each for BTC2392.595 ($157.93519595) at mtg. $0.065 each for BTC1853 ($120.445) at mtg. $0.0642 each for BTC0 ($0) at mtg. $0.0635 each for BTC100 ($6.35) at mtg. $0.063 each for BTC256.349 ($16.149987) at mtg. $0.0629 each for (3 more messages)
51 2010-10-08 00:20:36 <kiba> hmm can bitbot sum of how many dollars worth of bitcoin were exchanged today?
52 2010-10-08 00:20:55 <MacRohard> ;bcsell 63603BTC total
53 2010-10-08 00:20:57 <bitbot> MacRohard: Total amount for BTC63603 is $4205.89302196
54 2010-10-08 00:31:45 <kiba> what is the general rate of monentary inflation for the bitcoin economy
55 2010-10-08 00:37:56 <Keefe> wow: MTG| TRADE| 1758.021 @ $0.08
56 2010-10-08 00:38:14 <kiba> ;mtgox
57 2010-10-08 00:38:21 <bitbot> kiba: Mt. Gox: Last(0.077) High(0.08) Low(0.0628) BestSellPrice(0.0761) BestBuyPrice(0.077) Volume(63603)
58 2010-10-08 00:40:19 <jgarzik> I'd call that a support level
59 2010-10-08 00:40:42 <jgarzik> mtgox is running out of bitcoins. very few asks.
60 2010-10-08 00:41:21 <kiba> bitcoin galore!
61 2010-10-08 00:45:12 <kiba> can't believe it
62 2010-10-08 00:45:14 <kiba> only 4 asks
63 2010-10-08 00:46:02 <doublec> where is the list of asks?
64 2010-10-08 00:47:57 <kiba> depth of market
65 2010-10-08 00:48:04 <kiba> there's a long table detailing all the bidsd and asks
66 2010-10-08 00:48:14 <kiba> below the graph
67 2010-10-08 00:48:47 <doublec> ah, right, missed that, thanks
68 2010-10-08 00:51:40 <AAA_awright> kiba: Huh there is no reason it shouldn't be able to do that, is there?
69 2010-10-08 00:51:54 <doublec> only 4 asks but plenty of volume in them
70 2010-10-08 00:52:02 <doublec> 22,800 at 0.077
71 2010-10-08 00:57:43 <kiba> I guess MtGox
72 2010-10-08 00:57:49 <kiba> is back to its record breaking days
73 2010-10-08 00:58:10 <kiba> there has been a series of record breaking before the great buy strategy of a spectulator
74 2010-10-08 01:05:52 <kiba> I wonder why my new thread on mutual aid society got mute responses
75 2010-10-08 01:06:19 <nanotube> kiba: what's the thread?
76 2010-10-08 01:06:54 <kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1395.0
77 2010-10-08 01:06:56 <bitbot> Bitcoin Mutual Aid Society
78 2010-10-08 01:10:14 <doublec> so members of the society get discounts?
79 2010-10-08 01:10:24 <doublec> How do you confirm who is a member for a member site to give a discount?
80 2010-10-08 01:11:06 <kiba> hmm
81 2010-10-08 01:11:08 <kiba> good question
82 2010-10-08 01:11:53 <doublec> also how do you deal with members who miss a contribution for the month?
83 2010-10-08 01:12:06 <kiba> another good question
84 2010-10-08 01:13:29 <doublec> It also requires a great deal of trust on the owner of the address receiving the fees
85 2010-10-08 01:13:53 <doublec> Not just 'honesty' trust but trust in that they'll backup their wallet, etc
86 2010-10-08 01:13:59 <kiba> I thought about that but I don't know how to solve it
87 2010-10-08 01:14:19 <doublec> using something like mybitcoin might get around the worrying about backup issues
88 2010-10-08 01:14:47 <kiba> I handled the EFF escrow
89 2010-10-08 01:15:09 <kiba> but generally, I think it would be best to have several escrow
90 2010-10-08 01:15:15 <kiba> so if one guy went...screwly
91 2010-10-08 01:15:22 <kiba> it doesn't screw everybody else
92 2010-10-08 01:15:52 <kiba> or compromised, etc
93 2010-10-08 01:18:10 <doublec> make sense
94 2010-10-08 01:18:22 <doublec> that makes sense I mean
95 2010-10-08 01:22:50 <kiba> at X bitcoins, there would be escrow elected somehow
96 2010-10-08 01:23:52 <kiba> of course, to spend anything large, you would have to contact each escrow for the funds
97 2010-10-08 01:42:21 <Xunie> ^ HA HA
98 2010-10-08 01:42:28 <Xunie> I know him.
99 2010-10-08 01:44:01 <kiba> Xunie: who?
100 2010-10-08 01:48:50 <kiba> question: how can be sure that a new address didn't conflict with somebody's else
101 2010-10-08 01:49:50 <ArtForz> you can't but its unlikely as hell
102 2010-10-08 01:50:45 <nanotube> yea, hell is pretty unlikely.
103 2010-10-08 01:50:56 <nanotube> sounds like an approximately correct estimate. :)
104 2010-10-08 01:52:04 <ArtForz> 2 keypairs with identical addrs = ripemd160 hashes is already quite unlikely
105 2010-10-08 01:52:57 <kiba> in the event of a conflict, what will happen?
106 2010-10-08 01:53:05 <ArtForz> nothing much
107 2010-10-08 01:53:26 <ArtForz> 2 diff ppl have 2 diff priv/pub keypairs that hash to the same value
108 2010-10-08 01:54:31 <ArtForz> I *think* they could both spend bitcoins sent to that addr
109 2010-10-08 01:56:49 <Xunie> kiba, niekie.
110 2010-10-08 01:56:50 <kiba> I learn how to mantally multiply two digit number by 11
111 2010-10-08 01:57:08 <kiba> 99 * 11 is 1089
112 2010-10-08 01:57:32 <kiba> 88 * 11 is 968
113 2010-10-08 01:57:39 <Xunie> kiba, multten( unsigned int x ) { return (x * 10) + x; }
114 2010-10-08 01:57:54 <kiba> s/mantally/mentally
115 2010-10-08 01:57:54 <Xunie> That's how I do it in my head.
116 2010-10-08 01:57:57 <kiba> naw
117 2010-10-08 01:58:19 <Xunie> It's simpler to be honest. you just put a 0 behind x and add one times x.
118 2010-10-08 01:58:43 <Xunie> Also: binary multiplication/division by two is fast in binary, use it. :P
119 2010-10-08 01:58:50 <kiba> I add the first and second digit and then place it in between the two digit
120 2010-10-08 01:59:35 <kiba> it's interesting why they don't teach us mental math tricks in school
121 2010-10-08 02:01:21 <doublec> I don't undestand the mental trick: 9+9 = 18 => 9189?
122 2010-10-08 02:01:35 <kiba> add 9 + 1
123 2010-10-08 02:01:54 <kiba> if it get over 10, add one to the left digit
124 2010-10-08 02:02:01 <Xunie> I agree, mental math tricks are handy. Although a curta calculator is handier. :P
125 2010-10-08 02:02:02 <kiba> err 9
126 2010-10-08 02:02:23 <kiba> people can be taught to calculate faster than a calculator
127 2010-10-08 02:02:28 <Xunie> http://www.curta.org/ and http://www.curta.de/kr34/curta_simulator_en.htm
128 2010-10-08 02:02:38 <kiba> calculator is limited by your punching accuracy
129 2010-10-08 02:02:48 <kiba> and speed
130 2010-10-08 02:05:02 <kiba> is 999 * 11 = 1179?
131 2010-10-08 02:05:15 <kiba> nope
132 2010-10-08 02:05:26 <kiba> 9 + 9 + 9 is 27
133 2010-10-08 02:06:00 <kiba> hmm
134 2010-10-08 02:08:24 <lfm> mental math ---
135 2010-10-08 02:08:34 <bitbot> 10989
136 2010-10-08 02:08:34 <lfm> ;math calc 999 * 11
137 2010-10-08 02:08:57 <paroneayea> Hello
138 2010-10-08 02:09:02 <lfm> hi
139 2010-10-08 02:09:22 <paroneayea> I just wanted to see if my math is (depressingly) correct
140 2010-10-08 02:09:25 <paroneayea> I'm hoping no!
141 2010-10-08 02:09:44 <Xunie> paroneayea, hit me with your best shot!
142 2010-10-08 02:10:20 <paroneayea> So, initial value of bitcoins is 50. Every 210000 blocks, it halves
143 2010-10-08 02:10:22 <lfm> no singing!
144 2010-10-08 02:10:35 <paroneayea> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/272571/
145 2010-10-08 02:11:14 <paroneayea> that means that even after 30 iterations of 210000, when the blocks become pretty much useless in value
146 2010-10-08 02:11:19 <paroneayea> there will only be
147 2010-10-08 02:11:28 <paroneayea> 20999999.98 coins
148 2010-10-08 02:11:37 <paroneayea> 20999999.98 / 6697254041
149 2010-10-08 02:11:38 <paroneayea> 0.0031356134695563059
150 2010-10-08 02:11:41 <lfm> yup
151 2010-10-08 02:11:54 <paroneayea> .003 coins for every human on earth, assuming no coins are "lost", all coins are generated
152 2010-10-08 02:11:59 <paroneayea> and 100% even distribution
153 2010-10-08 02:12:02 <paroneayea> is this correct?
154 2010-10-08 02:12:21 <lfm> paroneayea, so whats bothering you?
155 2010-10-08 02:14:07 <paroneayea> lfm: assuming each human only had the "value" of one year of savings
156 2010-10-08 02:14:52 <lfm> I think you're making the static assumption mistake, think more in terms of cash flows.
157 2010-10-08 02:15:15 <paroneayea> lfm: yes, but assuming cash is flowing
158 2010-10-08 02:15:31 <paroneayea> cash-on-hand will be even less for each person
159 2010-10-08 02:15:49 <Xunie> Yes.
160 2010-10-08 02:16:06 <Xunie> But bitcoins are dividable.
161 2010-10-08 02:16:11 <Xunie> divisable, what ever.
162 2010-10-08 02:16:30 <lfm> nope, you could get paid x and spend x every month with only x amount in total "money" if it circulates, you spend the same x over and over.
163 2010-10-08 02:16:34 <kiba> very divisible
164 2010-10-08 02:16:36 <Xunie> "Can be divided"
165 2010-10-08 02:17:16 <kiba> can the hard limit be removed?
166 2010-10-08 02:17:19 <kiba> or upped?
167 2010-10-08 02:17:22 <lfm> even with only 21 million bitcoins in existance you could still be "earning" much more than that per year
168 2010-10-08 02:17:23 <nanotube> kiba: that mental math trick is rather... useless. why not just multiply by 10, then add 1 more?
169 2010-10-08 02:17:27 <Xunie> paroneayea, http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoins
170 2010-10-08 02:17:32 <Xunie> How divisible are Bitcoins?
171 2010-10-08 02:17:47 <kiba> nanotube: I only read a few page of a mental math book
172 2010-10-08 02:18:07 <lfm> technically you could divide each bitcent of 0.01 bitcoicns by 1 million
173 2010-10-08 02:18:36 <paroneayea> at that point a dollar falls off the 8 decimal limit, yeah?
174 2010-10-08 02:18:37 <kiba> so if bitcoin go wild, it's safe to say that 1 bitcoin make you fricking rich
175 2010-10-08 02:19:08 <kiba> "Hey, I am a one-anire!"
176 2010-10-08 02:19:15 <kiba> "I AM RICH!"
177 2010-10-08 02:19:15 <lfm> paroneayea, if you put your saving in an investment to earn some interest then you don't keep it, it circulates
178 2010-10-08 02:19:20 <Xunie> paroneayea, according to bc, my calculator, "2100000000000000/6697254041 == 313561"
179 2010-10-08 02:19:43 <Xunie> Therefor, 313561 bitcoins per person. But then we don't have any bitcoin cents.
180 2010-10-08 02:19:44 <paroneayea> Xunie: where did you get that first number from?:
181 2010-10-08 02:19:52 <Xunie> paroneayea, number of people on earth.
182 2010-10-08 02:20:10 <lfm> 21 million bitcoin each is divisable by 10 million
183 2010-10-08 02:20:14 <Xunie> You used it in your calculation.
184 2010-10-08 02:20:28 <Xunie> paroneayea> 20999999.98 / 6697254041 << See?
185 2010-10-08 02:20:36 <kiba> 21 million dvidied by 6 billion?
186 2010-10-08 02:20:51 <Xunie> Oh wait...
187 2010-10-08 02:20:55 <paroneayea> Xunie: ah I see, you're saying that eventually .00000001 will be the new 1
188 2010-10-08 02:21:02 <lfm> 21 million bitcoin each is divisable by 100 million actually
189 2010-10-08 02:21:06 <Xunie> paroneayea, 21000000*100000000 == 2100000000000000, bitcoins are divisable, remember?
190 2010-10-08 02:21:20 <kiba> they even have their own forum!
191 2010-10-08 02:21:36 <Xunie> So 2100000000000000 bitcoins spread among 6697254041 people evenly is 313561 bitcoins per person.
192 2010-10-08 02:21:47 <paroneayea> but I have a hard time seeing the bitcoin economy taking off if they're so hard to get your hands on in the first place
193 2010-10-08 02:21:52 <paroneayea> I really, really like the idea
194 2010-10-08 02:21:54 <lfm> paroneayea, the divisability only matters if bitcoins become very very valuable. it doesnt have to happen tho if they are circulating properly
195 2010-10-08 02:22:22 <Xunie> paroneayea, it's not harder than paypal IMHO.
196 2010-10-08 02:22:43 <lfm> paroneayea, BTC are not hard to get your hands on. They are like 6 cents us each, they are quite cheap and easy to get
197 2010-10-08 02:22:58 <doublec> kiba, places like paypal don't operate in russia maybe? so alternative currencies are more popular.
198 2010-10-08 02:22:58 <jgarzik> paroneayea: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=909.msg15940#msg15940
199 2010-10-08 02:23:02 <bitbot> Do You Accept Bitcoin? : jgarzik: bitcoin, as a whole, took a great leap forward when MyBitcoin introduced its Shopping Cart Interface (SCI). This brings bitcoin in line with the other major e-currencies/e-commodities, each of which offers the same basic merchant interface: Pecunix: http://info.pecunix.com/pecunix_pri.htm Liberty Reserve: http://www.libertyreserve....
200 2010-10-08 02:23:04 <Xunie> I got mine when they costed 0.005. :P
201 2010-10-08 02:23:29 <kiba> bastard
202 2010-10-08 02:23:50 <kiba> oh well, nobody could have predict the rise of bitcoin right?
203 2010-10-08 02:23:57 <Xunie> Well, I did.
204 2010-10-08 02:24:02 <Xunie> Everyone did.
205 2010-10-08 02:24:05 <lfm> kiba only half the people here
206 2010-10-08 02:24:35 <kiba> the EFF decided to accept bitcoin donations...most likely to just liquidate it
207 2010-10-08 02:24:57 <doublec> bitcoin2cash is offering 25btc for 1$ so there are still bargains around
208 2010-10-08 02:25:14 <kiba> in the process, I created a thread that is one of the longest on the forum.....spent lot of time trying to write a letter
209 2010-10-08 02:25:33 <kiba> and then several weeks of waiting and waiting....
210 2010-10-08 02:26:04 <lfm> paroneayea, anyway bitcoin will co-exist with all the other old currencies and maybe some other new ones for a long time to come. I don't really see what your worried about.
211 2010-10-08 02:26:05 <kiba> bitcoiners are making history, maybe
212 2010-10-08 02:26:35 <paroneayea> lfm: what I'm worried about is that the currency doesn't seem to "spread out" well, if only for floating point reasons :)
213 2010-10-08 02:27:36 <lfm> paroneayea, you thinking like people keep tyheir money in old socks, in their matteress. Thats not the way real money works. if you have it you put it in a bank or lend it out in investm,ents and keep it circulating
214 2010-10-08 02:28:52 <Xunie> <lfm> paroneayea, you thinking like people keep tyheir money in old socks, in their matteress. Thats not the way real money works. if you have it you put it in a bank or lend it out in investm,ents and keep it circulating << I agree, but bitcoin doesn't work that way.
215 2010-10-08 02:29:08 <Xunie> Although, I would see that a bitcoin bank would be a profitable application.
216 2010-10-08 02:29:22 <lfm> xunie once it matures it will.
217 2010-10-08 02:29:24 <Xunie> Only thing is: you can't get your loans back.
218 2010-10-08 02:29:49 <Xunie> People store money on your bank, you pay them an investment rate, whatever.
219 2010-10-08 02:29:51 <lfm> Xunie, same way you get any loan back, make em sign a contract
220 2010-10-08 02:30:01 <Xunie> lfm, sure, but how do you enforce that?
221 2010-10-08 02:30:09 <lfm> just like any loan
222 2010-10-08 02:30:09 <Xunie> Bitcoin still is pseudo-anonymous, remember?
223 2010-10-08 02:30:29 <paroneayea> Xunie: well so is cash.
224 2010-10-08 02:30:35 <Xunie> ^+1
225 2010-10-08 02:30:39 <lfm> if they dont pay their loan back you take em to court or whatever, why not?
226 2010-10-08 02:30:39 <Xunie> I guess.
227 2010-10-08 02:31:01 <Xunie> Right now you can't, since Bitcoin isn't recognized as a currency, and is possibly illegal.
228 2010-10-08 02:31:25 <paroneayea> I can't see why bitcoin would be more illegal than MMORPG gold
229 2010-10-08 02:31:26 <doublec> or get collateral before lending the money
230 2010-10-08 02:31:30 <lfm> Just like your bank doesnt hand out loans to you without id and an address
231 2010-10-08 02:32:09 <Xunie> paroneayea, MMORPG gold is a fictional currency designed to be used in that MMORPG.
232 2010-10-08 02:32:23 <Xunie> Bitcoins are designed to be a real currency on the internet. Alot of difference.
233 2010-10-08 02:32:37 <paroneayea> I wish any of these bitcoin selling sites had say, properly signed certificates
234 2010-10-08 02:32:45 <redengin> lol
235 2010-10-08 02:32:50 <nanotube> Xunie: there are plenty of alternative currencies out there. no reason why bitcoin of all would be illegal.
236 2010-10-08 02:32:54 <lfm> double and if you are making a living selling virtual stuff in second life or whatever you still have to pay income tax on it
237 2010-10-08 02:35:14 <paroneayea> I just think it would have been better if bitcoins started on the yen side of the scale before moving to the inevitable ultraconcentratedcurrency
238 2010-10-08 02:35:24 <paroneayea> maybe in the end there would still be some points to float ;)
239 2010-10-08 02:35:40 <paroneayea> assuming world domination, yadda yadda
240 2010-10-08 02:35:49 <lfm> actually I offered to keep people's bitcoins in Lloyd's bank ages ago but no one took me up on it. Mybe I should have offered to pay interest.
241 2010-10-08 02:35:58 <nanotube> paroneayea: while the 'total eventual amount' is fixed, it is possible that divisibility will be increased.
242 2010-10-08 02:36:14 <nanotube> lfm: what's that about lloyd's bank?
243 2010-10-08 02:36:32 <lfm> the divisability isnt needed tho if it is circulating properly
244 2010-10-08 02:36:37 <paroneayea> nanotube: well then, maybe I won't be so pessimistic ;)
245 2010-10-08 02:36:41 <paroneayea> lfm: I really, really doubt that.
246 2010-10-08 02:36:58 <nanotube> Xunie: --^ isn't it possible to increase divisibility further in the future? even as the total amount is fixed?
247 2010-10-08 02:37:48 <Xunie> I'm not sure, I have absolute zero knowledge of the actual Bitcoin implementation.
248 2010-10-08 02:37:56 <lfm> your anual income could easily be more than the total coins available. otherwise whats to say you don't want 10 years income stored in your vault, whats your limit. money is usless in vaults (mostly)
249 2010-10-08 02:39:34 <paroneayea> lfm: but everyone has to *have* some on hand. And don't forget that big corporations and etc keep big ol piles of money
250 2010-10-08 02:40:02 <paroneayea> seems to me that in the end, .00000001 will be at least a dollar's worth
251 2010-10-08 02:40:22 <lfm> yes, the divisability is for a different problem tho, its ofr if BTC 1.00 become worth $100,000. then its more convienient to split it up
252 2010-10-08 02:41:27 <lfm> if BTC stay at there current value or within a couple orders of magnitude it doesnt make much sense to split them up endlessly
253 2010-10-08 02:42:13 <paroneayea> well anyway! Despite my skepticism here, I'm actually enthusiastic about the *idea*.
254 2010-10-08 02:42:24 <paroneayea> where's the least sketchy place to buy bitcoins, then?
255 2010-10-08 02:42:28 <lfm> like currently what is worht less than US$ 0.0006 ? That is what BTC 0.01 is worth
256 2010-10-08 02:42:53 <nanotube> paroneayea: bitcoinmarket.com and mtgox.com are two popular exchanges
257 2010-10-08 02:43:42 <lfm> paroneayea, I second nanotube 's recomendations
258 2010-10-08 02:45:42 <jgarzik> paroneayea: if you already have an e-currency, https://bitcoinstore.yyz.us/ </plug>
259 2010-10-08 02:46:30 <lfm> that one is kinda scetchy tho
260 2010-10-08 02:46:36 <jgarzik> heh
261 2010-10-08 02:46:38 <lfm> :-)
262 2010-10-08 02:46:54 <jgarzik> my wife commented that it was quite the 1990's website style
263 2010-10-08 02:47:00 <paroneayea> indeed ;)
264 2010-10-08 02:47:23 <lfm> ya, like a website designed by a nurd
265 2010-10-08 02:47:46 <paroneayea> so my friend runs a site for finding how to help free software projects, http://openhatch.org
266 2010-10-08 02:48:11 <paroneayea> the reason I've talked so much in the last few is I've been pondering adding bitcoin support to it
267 2010-10-08 02:48:16 <jgarzik> That's why I paid tcatm for help with http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/ stylesheets and colors
268 2010-10-08 02:48:21 <jgarzik> it doesn't help that I'm colorblind, to boot.
269 2010-10-08 02:48:36 <paroneayea> maybe it's a good kind of "currency" for those kinds of exchanges
270 2010-10-08 02:48:40 <jgarzik> (partially)
271 2010-10-08 02:48:48 <paroneayea> get paid for submitting a good patch, spend those bitcoins on a new ui mockup
272 2010-10-08 02:48:59 <doublec> paroneayea, it's a good idea
273 2010-10-08 02:49:36 <paroneayea> if I can get some bitcoins to start circulating them, then it'll be feasible to test, even!
274 2010-10-08 02:49:44 <lfm> pand 0.0006 cents is cheaper than peanuts or chickenfeed I bet
275 2010-10-08 02:49:46 <paroneayea> but I'll look into that more tomorrow
276 2010-10-08 02:50:00 <paroneayea> thanks for all the patient responses, everyone :0
277 2010-10-08 02:50:09 <paroneayea> :)
278 2010-10-08 02:50:51 <jgarzik> ;bcsell 0.5btc total
279 2010-10-08 02:50:53 <bitbot> jgarzik: Total amount for BTC0.5 is $0.0395
280 2010-10-08 02:51:03 <jgarzik> freebitcoins is generous
281 2010-10-08 02:51:08 <lfm> you're rich
282 2010-10-08 02:52:12 <doublec> ;free
283 2010-10-08 02:52:13 <bitbot> free is https://freebitcoins.appspot.com (Free Bitcoins) courtesy of gavin
284 2010-10-08 02:53:52 <lfm> ;khash 24144
285 2010-10-08 02:53:53 <bitbot> lfm: ProbabilityPerSecond(0.00000426297794034608819843607120) Chances: Avg(2d 17:09:37) 25%(0d 18:44:43) 50%(1d 21:09:56) 75%(3d 18:19:53) 95%(8d 3:12:12) 99%(12d 12:04:30)
286 2010-10-08 02:54:29 <paroneayea> thx for the info on freebitcoins
287 2010-10-08 02:54:42 <paroneayea> how long does it usually take for it to become "confirmed" currency?
288 2010-10-08 02:54:53 <lfm> about 1 hour
289 2010-10-08 02:55:04 <paroneayea> ah cool
290 2010-10-08 02:55:19 <nanotube> paroneayea: it stops saying 'unconfirmed' after 6 blocks... blocks are generated approx 1 / 10 min
291 2010-10-08 02:55:45 <lfm> theyre kinda random tho so it can be more or less
292 2010-10-08 02:55:54 <nanotube> so as lfm stated more succinctly... about 1 hour :)
293 2010-10-08 02:56:32 <paroneayea> cool. Well, I'm off to bed!
294 2010-10-08 02:56:34 <paroneayea> later, all.
295 2010-10-08 02:57:07 <nanotube> o/
296 2010-10-08 02:59:50 <lfm> that seems to be a common misunderstanding tho, that currency must exist to support the net wealth of the partisapents. The two are unreleated really, currency is for the circulation of the transactions, not for the static values of things
297 2010-10-08 03:01:00 <nanotube> lfm: true... but the thing is, since btc is the only currency that doesn't inflate, it's not unreasonable to expect that some people will just convert their various fiat currency reserves to btc, and sit on them, instead of sitting on savings in the form of $fiatcurrency.
298 2010-10-08 03:01:22 <lfm> why doesnt BTC inflate? It could easily
299 2010-10-08 03:01:49 <nanotube> and since when you "save" a fiat currency in the bank, it actually circulates, while when you "save" btc, it sits in your wallet and doesn't circulate... you get a somewhat different picture.
300 2010-10-08 03:02:14 <nanotube> well, inflation is, at the core of it, due to governments creating more money
301 2010-10-08 03:02:35 <nanotube> since btc is limited to 21m coins... it's not possible for someone to continually expand the money-supply of btc
302 2010-10-08 03:02:58 <lfm> what you think would happen if people lost faith in BTC and everyone tried to sell all their BTC
303 2010-10-08 03:03:16 <nanotube> that's not inflation, that's market sentiment.
304 2010-10-08 03:03:24 <lfm> same effect
305 2010-10-08 03:03:47 <lfm> your saving would be worth less
306 2010-10-08 03:03:48 <nanotube> once it becomes unlikely enough to happen, it won't be a concern
307 2010-10-08 03:04:52 <nanotube> at the moment, yes, anything can happen, beta software and all that. :) but say 10 years from now, when it is a well-established currency... how likely would it be that suddenly people "lose faith"
308 2010-10-08 03:05:12 <nanotube> but anyway, yes, there is certainly risk
309 2010-10-08 03:05:28 <lfm> or not so suddenly just drift away from it
310 2010-10-08 03:05:29 <nanotube> like any asset, it btc should be part of a diversified portfolio. eggs in one basket and all that.
311 2010-10-08 03:06:12 <nanotube> but when you put some assets "in btc" it still, just sits there.
312 2010-10-08 03:06:34 <lfm> same as putting a bunch of quarters in a sock
313 2010-10-08 03:07:15 <jgarzik> I would love to find a foreign bank with US brokerage capability. Set up a couple BTC-denominated ETFs, which buy/sell real shares of some well known ETFs.
314 2010-10-08 03:07:30 <nanotube> yes, but the existence of deliberate, expected, and well-known inflation tends to discourage people from doing that. while the absense thereof with btc will encourage more 'socking'
315 2010-10-08 03:08:09 <lfm> on such are ponzi shemes built! (grin)
316 2010-10-08 03:08:14 <jgarzik> A real investment vehicle, not this "HYIP" crap you see in the e-currency field.
317 2010-10-08 03:08:20 <jgarzik> a LYIP
318 2010-10-08 03:08:35 <nanotube> jgarzik: heh interesting... but what would that accomplish, really? what's the benefit of investing into an ETF using btc, rather than using say, USD?
319 2010-10-08 03:08:57 <nanotube> besides expose yourself to extra currency risk
320 2010-10-08 03:09:00 <jgarzik> nanotube: for bitcoin, paying interest in BTC would bring a stream of USD->BTC conversions to bitcoin
321 2010-10-08 03:09:08 <lfm> buy into my investment club over here, it never goes down in value, see, here is our record for the last x years.
322 2010-10-08 03:10:06 <lfm> buy these sub-prime morgage devices, they have been going up and up and up
323 2010-10-08 03:10:33 <nanotube> jgarzik: yes... but why would /investors/ invest? say i have 10kbtc. i can (a) invest it into a btc-denominated ETF, or sell it at current market prices, and invest it into a USD denominated ETF.
324 2010-10-08 03:10:48 <nanotube> but a (b) in there after the comma heh
325 2010-10-08 03:11:04 <jgarzik> nanotube: a bit more privacy, for one
326 2010-10-08 03:11:35 <nanotube> if i invest into btc-denominated ETF, and the btc-usd exchange rate goes up, say from 0.06 usd/btc, to 0.07 usd/btc, the value of my etf shares denominated in BTC goes down?
327 2010-10-08 03:11:53 <nanotube> jgarzik: privacy? you think the govt won't want all kinds of KYC on top of that?
328 2010-10-08 03:12:39 <nanotube> if i expect value of btc to go up relative to usd, i'd rather keep the btc-cash, rather than invest in an underlying-dollar-denominated asset with btc
329 2010-10-08 03:12:49 <jgarzik> nanotube: the principal must obviously be dollar-denominated, like the ETF itself. purchases must be converted to USD, then ETF shares are bought. sales and interest are in USD, converted to BTC at time of withdrawal.
330 2010-10-08 03:12:52 <lfm> yup, your customers are a bunch of russians who really don't like using rubles if they can avoid it.
331 2010-10-08 03:13:39 <nanotube> jgarzik: still, as an investor, i don't see any benefit to me.?
332 2010-10-08 03:13:48 <jgarzik> nanotube: the brokerage account would either be the foreign bank's brokerage account, or The Bitcoin ETF's brokerage account.
333 2010-10-08 03:14:01 <jgarzik> nanotube: so BTC investor list is not exposed to US gov't
334 2010-10-08 03:15:01 <jgarzik> nanotube: technical owner of shares would be The Bitcoin ETF Trust, LLC of Charlestown, Nevis :)
335 2010-10-08 03:17:46 <jgarzik> does https://buybitcoins.com/ work for anybody?
336 2010-10-08 03:17:56 <jgarzik> it asks me my country, then does nothing.
337 2010-10-08 03:18:12 <lfm> suposedly the investors get a profit someday, assuming jgarzik doesn't run of to Nevis with the balance
338 2010-10-08 03:18:39 <jgarzik> profit depends on ETF performance
339 2010-10-08 03:18:42 <nanotube> so, it must be some foreign country that is not exposed to strongarming my us govt...
340 2010-10-08 03:19:05 <nanotube> but at the same time, is politically safe-enough that you wouldn't worry about the govt nationalizing your assets....
341 2010-10-08 03:19:15 <nanotube> jgarzik: asked me my country too... let's see what it does after
342 2010-10-08 03:19:45 <nanotube> BuyBitcoins.com has recently had some technical problems caused by spam bots, but the site is now working properly.
343 2010-10-08 03:20:00 <nanotube> jgarzik: --^ that's what it says now. and asks me to enter an email address "to make sure i am a human'
344 2010-10-08 03:20:09 <jgarzik> Plenty of small fry do this already with brokerage accounts. The main thing is not getting huge enough to get noticed by the guys with guns, as ever :)
345 2010-10-08 03:20:39 <nanotube> mmmm
346 2010-10-08 04:48:59 <Netsniper> http://newsandtribune.com/local/x996059568/Wildlife-officials-seek-to-rein-in-hogs-gone-wild
347 2010-10-08 05:48:41 <mesees> can i get a concise explanation of what bitcoin is and is not?
348 2010-10-08 05:50:23 <DiabloD3> mesees: its a virtual currency that cannot be attacked by outside or inside means.
349 2010-10-08 05:51:01 <DiabloD3> which includes, but is not limited to, bitcoin cannot be inflated, you can't print more of it
350 2010-10-08 05:51:07 <DiabloD3> nor can you (effectively) destroy it
351 2010-10-08 05:51:14 <mesees> u somewhat understand that part DiabloD3 but what is the real work application? and, you say not from the inside, why couldnt whomever is creating the currency just increase the ceiling?
352 2010-10-08 05:51:25 <mesees> u = i
353 2010-10-08 05:51:39 <DiabloD3> its based on the size of the space the cryptography hashes are in
354 2010-10-08 05:51:39 <mesees> work = world
355 2010-10-08 05:51:40 <lfm> decentralized. there is no central authority in charge or in control of bitcoin
356 2010-10-08 05:51:42 <mesees> man im on a roll
357 2010-10-08 05:51:54 <DiabloD3> you'd have to alter every client on the network to do it
358 2010-10-08 05:52:04 <mesees> i read something about no more than X bitcoins will be created though
359 2010-10-08 05:52:13 <DiabloD3> mesees: no more than X CAN be created
360 2010-10-08 05:52:58 <mesees> says who?
361 2010-10-08 05:53:01 <lfm> its kinda an economics experiment
362 2010-10-08 05:53:08 <DiabloD3> mesees: the size of the hash space.
363 2010-10-08 05:53:24 <mesees> why can whomever is running it, increase the space?
364 2010-10-08 05:53:32 <DiabloD3> they cant.
365 2010-10-08 05:53:44 <DiabloD3> thats like asking why is there no number between 2 and 3.
366 2010-10-08 05:53:48 <DiabloD3> there just isnt.
367 2010-10-08 05:53:57 <mesees> well there is isnt there
368 2010-10-08 05:54:05 <mesees> a lot of them
369 2010-10-08 05:54:12 <DiabloD3> not if you're counting integer numbers.
370 2010-10-08 05:54:19 <lfm> they would have to convince everyone or at least half of those running the client to support the change
371 2010-10-08 05:54:33 <mesees> it kinda seems like more of an IT/computer guy experiment than an economic one
372 2010-10-08 05:54:38 <DiabloD3> mesees: the number of blocks that produce coins was chosen based on the size of the cryptography space
373 2010-10-08 05:54:41 <samfisher> Just out of curiosity (more or less): Who would like to read books and record them in audio, for BTC? And what would a fair rate would be?
374 2010-10-08 05:54:57 <DiabloD3> mesees: there IS only so many hashes that fit the classification required to produce more coins
375 2010-10-08 05:55:18 <mesees> i have no idea what that means
376 2010-10-08 05:55:46 <lfm> DiabloD3, I think it is more of an arbitrary descision by the designer
377 2010-10-08 05:56:10 <mesees> lfm, thats what my un-computer educated self is thinking
378 2010-10-08 05:56:13 <DiabloD3> mesees: bitcoin produces new coins when someone hashes a new work block that the resulting hash fits a certain criteria
379 2010-10-08 05:56:16 <DiabloD3> lfm: nope
380 2010-10-08 05:56:31 <DiabloD3> lfm: he chose a number that is close to how many hashes will ever be valid under bitcoin
381 2010-10-08 05:56:35 <mesees> man, you bitcoin people really do need to work on your sales pitch
382 2010-10-08 05:56:40 <joe_1> it is an arbitrary decision to have whatever million coins then stop
383 2010-10-08 05:56:56 <lfm> mesees DiabloD3 has been known to make mistakes in the past
384 2010-10-08 05:56:57 <DiabloD3> mesees: the "sales pitch" as you put it is only interesting to people who already understand the mathematics behind it
385 2010-10-08 05:56:58 <mesees> i came here because someone in another room was talking about it but had no ability to explain what it was
386 2010-10-08 05:57:06 <fedorared> But with a majority of nodes will be enforced as mandatory
387 2010-10-08 05:57:21 <mesees> i understand economics, well. and a bit of math....and i dont get it
388 2010-10-08 05:57:32 <mesees> nodes and hashes isnt math
389 2010-10-08 05:57:40 <joe_1> right, it's all about a majority of nodes agreeing on how many bitcoins there are, and who has them.
390 2010-10-08 05:57:43 <DiabloD3> mesees: so, yes, you CAN increase the size of the space new hashes are found in... but no existing client can communicate with new ones altered for the larger space.
391 2010-10-08 05:58:01 <lfm> arbitrary cut the reward in half every 210000 or whatever it is blocks, yes.
392 2010-10-08 05:58:12 <DiabloD3> mesees: the way this is enforced is all clients know the rules, and if a client joins that is relaying bad data, the bad data is dropped
393 2010-10-08 05:58:20 <necrodearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1392.0 - Come to #dragonstale if you are interested or will participate in the play session on Friday.
394 2010-10-08 05:58:22 <bitbot> Dragon's Tale - a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG/Casino
395 2010-10-08 05:58:44 <DiabloD3> mesees: this also means that I know how many coins everybody has at any given time.
396 2010-10-08 05:58:52 <mesees> hmmm
397 2010-10-08 05:59:08 <DiabloD3> no one can make btc in their basement, for example.
398 2010-10-08 05:59:32 <DiabloD3> if address foo sends 50 coins to bar, and there is no record of foo having 50 coins to send, the transaction is invalid
399 2010-10-08 05:59:34 <lfm> everyone makes bitcoin in their basement or whatever
400 2010-10-08 05:59:34 <mesees> nor can they make gold or silver....what drew you to bitcoins?
401 2010-10-08 05:59:38 <DiabloD3> and everyone on the network can verify this
402 2010-10-08 05:59:45 <DiabloD3> actually, they CAN make gold and silver
403 2010-10-08 05:59:59 <mesees> um, no
404 2010-10-08 06:00:00 <DiabloD3> its a complex process to produce monetary gold and silver, but the amount of monetary gold and silver does increase.
405 2010-10-08 06:00:11 <mesees> indeed, that is a good thiing
406 2010-10-08 06:00:20 <fedorared> The dream of the alchemist lives on
407 2010-10-08 06:00:28 <mesees> good luck
408 2010-10-08 06:00:31 <DiabloD3> fedorared: we're not talking producing gold out of thin air
409 2010-10-08 06:00:37 <DiabloD3> gold != monetary gold.
410 2010-10-08 06:00:51 <fedorared> I know I was just amused at how long we've been chasing things of value
411 2010-10-08 06:01:04 <mesees> is this place more IT or economics folks?
412 2010-10-08 06:01:15 <fedorared> Welcoming both?
413 2010-10-08 06:01:15 <joe_1> both
414 2010-10-08 06:01:23 <lfm> of course you dont get it out of air, you get it out of water! panning or sea water evaporation
415 2010-10-08 06:01:34 <DiabloD3> mesees: the internet needs a secure verifiable transaction service.
416 2010-10-08 06:01:45 <mesees> paypal?
417 2010-10-08 06:01:54 <DiabloD3> paypal is not secure, nor verifiable.
418 2010-10-08 06:02:05 <lfm> paypal is too expensive with its fees
419 2010-10-08 06:02:11 <DiabloD3> paypal itself cannot be trusted, nor do they allow third party audits of their system
420 2010-10-08 06:02:27 <DiabloD3> NOR are they considered a bank in most countries, thus most safe handling of money laws dont apply to them
421 2010-10-08 06:02:29 <mesees> it is for me...i am approaching this from an economists point of view and have yet to encounter even one somewhat solid point as to why this is viable
422 2010-10-08 06:02:38 <DiabloD3> and they have also shown that they love to lock people's account in an attempt to steal their money
423 2010-10-08 06:02:49 <DiabloD3> paypal simply cannot be trusted
424 2010-10-08 06:02:57 <mesees> i trust them
425 2010-10-08 06:03:08 <mesees> why should i trust your hashes and dashes or whatever
426 2010-10-08 06:03:23 <lfm> mesees, its viablity if it gets it comes from its users
427 2010-10-08 06:03:35 <joe_1> paypal does not allow you to pay into casinos
428 2010-10-08 06:03:41 <DiabloD3> mesees: you can verify every transaction ever on bitcoin
429 2010-10-08 06:03:47 <mesees> my bank does though
430 2010-10-08 06:03:49 <fedorared> The whole open source peer to peer don't need a central authority argument.
431 2010-10-08 06:04:10 <DiabloD3> mesees: you CANNOT verify transactions on any other system
432 2010-10-08 06:04:21 <mesees> you get where im going though - all i hear is you can verify this or that, its viable because of the users.........why would joe off the street use it?
433 2010-10-08 06:04:23 <fedorared> people interested in bitcoin tend to like open source, privacy, security, and like the crypto or economics of it
434 2010-10-08 06:04:39 <DiabloD3> mesees: joe off the street generally wants to go back to cash
435 2010-10-08 06:04:45 <joe_1> in the real world, a payment through a bank or paypal tells the world the real identity of the sender and the recipient
436 2010-10-08 06:04:48 <DiabloD3> but cash inherently is dangerous
437 2010-10-08 06:04:59 <lfm> mesees, easy internet wide free transfers
438 2010-10-08 06:05:08 <DiabloD3> you can get mugged, digital representations of cash can get screwed up, theres a large cost overhead of digital representations, etc
439 2010-10-08 06:05:15 <DiabloD3> and digital representations are not anonymous.
440 2010-10-08 06:05:26 <lfm> mesees, at internet speeds
441 2010-10-08 06:05:32 <mesees> so i can transfer my bank account cash?
442 2010-10-08 06:05:38 <mesees> or only these "coins"?
443 2010-10-08 06:05:49 <DiabloD3> mesees: that question doesnt make sense.
444 2010-10-08 06:06:01 <DiabloD3> thats like asking if you can spend USD in Europe
445 2010-10-08 06:06:05 <lfm> mesees, you can spend your cash to buy bitcoins, yes
446 2010-10-08 06:06:08 <mesees> you folks do realize too there is no real source of information for your product that i have been able to find
447 2010-10-08 06:06:09 <DiabloD3> no, you cant, you need to convert them into Euros first
448 2010-10-08 06:06:16 <DiabloD3> mesees: its not a product.
449 2010-10-08 06:06:21 <DiabloD3> we're not selling anything.
450 2010-10-08 06:06:27 <mesees> what is it if i can buy it
451 2010-10-08 06:06:38 <mesees> you just said youre selling bitcoins
452 2010-10-08 06:06:39 <joe_1> you can buy it
453 2010-10-08 06:06:41 <lfm> mesees, its still new , in its infancy really.
454 2010-10-08 06:06:47 <a_meteorite> it's a currency
455 2010-10-08 06:06:51 <DiabloD3> mesees: private bitcoin owners are selling bitcoins
456 2010-10-08 06:07:02 <DiabloD3> no one is selling the software, it is Free and Open Source.
457 2010-10-08 06:07:27 <lfm> there is a couple "market" sites where you can buy and sell BTC (bitcoin) with other currencies
458 2010-10-08 06:07:28 <mesees> i got that much - just have no reason to DL at this point....and ima Linux guy
459 2010-10-08 06:07:36 <mesees> still no economic rationale
460 2010-10-08 06:07:44 <DiabloD3> mesees: the question you're asking is, "who accepts btc"
461 2010-10-08 06:07:49 <DiabloD3> very few merchants do atm
462 2010-10-08 06:07:59 <DiabloD3> a lot of them cater to anonymous services.
463 2010-10-08 06:08:05 <joe_1> it's good for sending or receiving money when you could not or do not want anyone to know about it
464 2010-10-08 06:08:15 <joe_1> good for money laundering
465 2010-10-08 06:08:15 <mesees> i saw the list on .org and it seems to be concentrated in russia...not reassuring
466 2010-10-08 06:08:19 <DiabloD3> mesees: do you understand why tor is useful?
467 2010-10-08 06:08:53 <fedorared> What's bad about Russia?
468 2010-10-08 06:09:15 <mesees> DiabloD3, i dont use it but i get it
469 2010-10-08 06:09:28 <DiabloD3> mesees: bitcoin is what happens if you tried to make an anonymous bank.
470 2010-10-08 06:09:35 <DiabloD3> or rather, an entire anonymous currency
471 2010-10-08 06:10:03 <mesees> so is there a bitcoin stance on commodity money?
472 2010-10-08 06:10:10 <lfm> for certain definitions of anonymous
473 2010-10-08 06:10:25 <DiabloD3> one that all transactions, ever, can be mathematically proven, yet it doesn't violate anonymity for the users
474 2010-10-08 06:10:29 <mesees> why are normal people concerned about being anonymous too?
475 2010-10-08 06:10:30 <DiabloD3> lfm: well, it doesnt stop outside data leaking
476 2010-10-08 06:10:39 <DiabloD3> mesees: well, people love to spy
477 2010-10-08 06:10:42 <fedorared> You don't *have* to be anonymous
478 2010-10-08 06:10:54 <DiabloD3> companies and governments and private citizens spy where they aren't wanted or needed
479 2010-10-08 06:11:23 <mesees> im just trying to approach this from a marketing/sales/growth perspective, which i kinda hate, but it is the way things become viable - and im not seeing it
480 2010-10-08 06:11:27 <lfm> in that all transactions are transerently public, its just who is behind them is anonymous in a sense
481 2010-10-08 06:11:36 <DiabloD3> mesees: you're over thinking it.
482 2010-10-08 06:11:47 <DiabloD3> mesees: btc will be popular when many important merchants accept it.
483 2010-10-08 06:11:47 <joe_1> he has some points
484 2010-10-08 06:12:11 <mesees> DiabloD3, what is their incentive for accepting it?
485 2010-10-08 06:12:25 <DiabloD3> lfm: unless I have outside information, I can't link an address to a real person
486 2010-10-08 06:12:29 <lfm> mesees, less overhead costs than paypal
487 2010-10-08 06:12:33 <DiabloD3> lfm: and the client changes addresses frequently
488 2010-10-08 06:12:47 <mesees> lfm, does it have support?
489 2010-10-08 06:12:51 <DiabloD3> mesees: most online payment gateways are expensive or not trustworthy
490 2010-10-08 06:12:55 <lfm> the whole concept of "real persons" is outside information
491 2010-10-08 06:13:07 <mesees> they are quite trustworthy....that is a myth
492 2010-10-08 06:13:09 <DiabloD3> lfm: yes and no.
493 2010-10-08 06:13:13 <joe_1> the bottom line is, if you are not concerned about privacy / anonymity, and you are not doing anything illegal, there probably is not a reason to use bitcoin.
494 2010-10-08 06:13:20 <fedorared> So what if it doesn't take off with marketing and sales and big merchants and all that. It's a good experiment. Not to crush anyone's dreams or anything...
495 2010-10-08 06:13:31 <DiabloD3> mesees: I don't trust paypal. They frequently lock _merchant_ accounts for no reason
496 2010-10-08 06:13:36 <DiabloD3> mesees: they also cannot be held accountable
497 2010-10-08 06:13:42 <mesees> joe_1, so you are saying there is no way in our current environment it is viable to the general population
498 2010-10-08 06:13:44 <a_meteorite> paypal locks accounts all the time for no reason, they locked mine. in my book they are the most untrustworthy but well-used money-handling company today.
499 2010-10-08 06:13:58 <a_meteorite> and they are quite expensive to use at that.
500 2010-10-08 06:14:01 <joe_1> There are a lot of ron paul type people that want government out of their business and have something like bitcoin that is completely separated from their real identity.
501 2010-10-08 06:14:07 <mesees> i have had nothing but the best experiences with PP
502 2010-10-08 06:14:23 <DiabloD3> mesees: most of the larger card transaction gateways are mostly trustworthy, but you either have to be very big (ie, do a lot of transactions), or you pay close to paypal prices
503 2010-10-08 06:14:23 <mesees> joe_1, real money does the same thing...
504 2010-10-08 06:14:24 <lfm> mesees, as you can see there are almost as many viewpoints about bitcoin as there are users
505 2010-10-08 06:14:28 <a_meteorite> it's matter of when, not if, when you will have a completely sour experience with no appeal
506 2010-10-08 06:14:33 <joe_1> i had a horrible experience I was a seller and they pulled back 1500$ after i delivered the product.
507 2010-10-08 06:14:44 <DiabloD3> look at what they did to notch
508 2010-10-08 06:14:49 <mesees> lfm, for sure, this is very interesting to me
509 2010-10-08 06:14:50 <joe_1> mesees: only cash. but with cash you have to meet the person in person.
510 2010-10-08 06:14:51 <DiabloD3> they tried to steal $750k of his money
511 2010-10-08 06:15:01 <a_meteorite> they locked my account wanting IRS and bank account verification after having a good standing account for 3 years with light use
512 2010-10-08 06:15:13 <DiabloD3> they didnt unlock his account (and sweep it under the rug) until all the big news sites covered it
513 2010-10-08 06:15:19 <DiabloD3> notch == the guy who wrote minecraft
514 2010-10-08 06:15:20 <lfm> joe_1, and with bitcoin if they demand payment first then they dont deliver, whats the difference
515 2010-10-08 06:15:26 <mesees> you realize those actions arent PP's fault right?
516 2010-10-08 06:15:39 <DiabloD3> PP locked the account without warning, and refused to give a reason why
517 2010-10-08 06:15:42 <mesees> those are responses to government regulation and regulator pressures
518 2010-10-08 06:15:43 <DiabloD3> so yes, it IS PP's fault.
519 2010-10-08 06:15:50 <a_meteorite> PP is barely regulated at all, hahahaha
520 2010-10-08 06:15:51 <DiabloD3> PP is not under government regulation.
521 2010-10-08 06:15:58 <DiabloD3> In the US, they are not a bank.
522 2010-10-08 06:16:01 <mesees> PP doesnt care if you pay the IRS
523 2010-10-08 06:16:04 <mesees> the IRS cares
524 2010-10-08 06:16:13 <joe_1> lfm: it's less likely for someone to be scammed successfully, because people "just know" to be cautious about paying first. Paypal perpetuates scams by making you feel like you have the money. Then their backwards rules kick in.
525 2010-10-08 06:16:14 <DiabloD3> notch isn't from the US, the IRS doesn't care about him either.
526 2010-10-08 06:16:18 <a_meteorite> that doesn't change the fact they want verification from them to unlock my account
527 2010-10-08 06:16:37 <DiabloD3> they also, very famously, attacked Something Awful's paypal account when they tried to donate money to one of the big Katria charities
528 2010-10-08 06:16:43 <lfm> DiabloD3, if a bunch of cops and lawyers walk into your office, you kinda tend to do what thay say
529 2010-10-08 06:16:44 <a_meteorite> they also nuked cryptome's account
530 2010-10-08 06:16:44 <joe_1> mesees: And with bitcoin, you don't have to worry about the IRS
531 2010-10-08 06:16:45 <mesees> joe_1, i can mail cash
532 2010-10-08 06:16:55 <DiabloD3> lfm: cops and lawyers dont walk into Paypal
533 2010-10-08 06:17:01 <DiabloD3> lfm: that would be the best day ever if that happened
534 2010-10-08 06:17:08 <mesees> joe_1, for now...like they wont catch on? although i still dont understand what they would catch on to :)
535 2010-10-08 06:17:24 <DiabloD3> mesees: do NOT mail cash
536 2010-10-08 06:17:45 <DiabloD3> use money orders or cashiers checks
537 2010-10-08 06:17:50 <mesees> DiabloD3, i dont do anything with cash
538 2010-10-08 06:18:05 <mesees> DiabloD3, which are easier to fake than cash which i think is funny
539 2010-10-08 06:18:21 <DiabloD3> not at all
540 2010-10-08 06:18:25 <joe_1> mesees: mailing cash works, but it takes time and requires the recipient to reveal his physical address to you. With bitcoin, recipient nor sender need reveal anything to the other.
541 2010-10-08 06:18:33 <a_meteorite> Post Office money orders are very safe
542 2010-10-08 06:18:33 <mesees> um, i do this for a living, yes they are
543 2010-10-08 06:18:37 <DiabloD3> I can call up the issuing institution and verify their legitimacy
544 2010-10-08 06:18:48 <DiabloD3> oh, and I dont accept post office money orders
545 2010-10-08 06:18:50 <DiabloD3> those are still shit
546 2010-10-08 06:18:53 <a_meteorite> you cash it right then, they check its authenticity, no possibility of chargebacks
547 2010-10-08 06:19:01 <mesees> are you going to call the fed and verify your cerial numbers?
548 2010-10-08 06:19:15 <niekie> Cereal :>
549 2010-10-08 06:19:16 <a_meteorite> whereas money orders from a bank cashed at your bank run some degree of risk
550 2010-10-08 06:19:22 <DiabloD3> serial.
551 2010-10-08 06:19:32 <mesees> one of those
552 2010-10-08 06:19:41 <niekie> LOL
553 2010-10-08 06:19:58 <niekie> Gimme some cereal :)
554 2010-10-08 06:20:16 <DiabloD3> mesees: anyhow, heres the fun part
555 2010-10-08 06:20:17 <mesees> can you buy that with your coins?
556 2010-10-08 06:20:19 <DiabloD3> you cant fraud bitcoin.
557 2010-10-08 06:20:24 <a_meteorite> mesees: so, yes, paypal cares about the IRS. I'm looking at my locked account.
558 2010-10-08 06:20:32 <niekie> Most common causes for cereal death:
559 2010-10-08 06:20:36 <lfm> cereal ports are where you ship grain?
560 2010-10-08 06:20:36 <niekie> Drowning (in milk)
561 2010-10-08 06:20:39 <niekie> Being crushed.
562 2010-10-08 06:20:41 <a_meteorite> what they want: "Organization and Payment Information", "Proof of Tax Exempt", "Voided Check / Bank Statement"
563 2010-10-08 06:20:51 <DiabloD3> niekie: Drowning (in booze)
564 2010-10-08 06:20:55 <a_meteorite> absolutely no complaints or fraud
565 2010-10-08 06:21:00 <mesees> a_meteorite, sounds like you got in over your head
566 2010-10-08 06:21:01 <DiabloD3> the iron man breakfast. :D
567 2010-10-08 06:21:02 <a_meteorite> lightly used account in good standing for 3+ years
568 2010-10-08 06:21:14 <a_meteorite> no, paypal are just assholes. I can't even DELETE the account.
569 2010-10-08 06:21:20 <a_meteorite> and they're holding the remaining balance hostage.
570 2010-10-08 06:21:26 <niekie> DiabloD3: you're a FeMale?
571 2010-10-08 06:21:27 <mesees> a_meteorite, you know i dont believe that right?
572 2010-10-08 06:21:32 <DiabloD3> niekie: no.
573 2010-10-08 06:21:37 <niekie> Get it? Fe male? :P
574 2010-10-08 06:21:38 <a_meteorite> mesees: don't believe that? haha
575 2010-10-08 06:21:43 <DiabloD3> hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
576 2010-10-08 06:21:47 <a_meteorite> I have no reason to lie
577 2010-10-08 06:21:57 <DiabloD3> I was not made in a cave with scraps either
578 2010-10-08 06:22:04 <mesees> other than to promote the product of whos room youre in
579 2010-10-08 06:22:13 <a_meteorite> this is not a product
580 2010-10-08 06:22:19 <a_meteorite> I don't make bitcoins by putting down paypal
581 2010-10-08 06:22:33 <mesees> whatever the fuck you want to call it...good god...what is this
582 2010-10-08 06:22:35 <DiabloD3> mesees: bitcoin is trying to solve a very specific problem
583 2010-10-08 06:22:39 <fedorared> A project
584 2010-10-08 06:22:43 <DiabloD3> mesees: thats all its doing
585 2010-10-08 06:22:57 <DiabloD3> it doesn't matter if people use it or not, as long as the problem has been solved
586 2010-10-08 06:22:59 <mesees> there is no end?
587 2010-10-08 06:23:06 <mesees> what problem?
588 2010-10-08 06:23:20 <DiabloD3> decentralized transactional proof of work for currency.
589 2010-10-08 06:23:20 <lfm> mesees, end? on irc? hahaha
590 2010-10-08 06:23:20 <mesees> paypal locking accounts is the reason for this entire project?
591 2010-10-08 06:23:36 <a_meteorite> that's just ONE reason
592 2010-10-08 06:23:46 <DiabloD3> in such a way that any client, given the full history of the network, can verify any wallet or transaction.
593 2010-10-08 06:23:48 <DiabloD3> in full.
594 2010-10-08 06:23:57 <a_meteorite> it's just a very good example of the leading service being completely retarded to use
595 2010-10-08 06:24:04 <mesees> i think all fiat money is destined to fail, bitcoin will discover the same
596 2010-10-08 06:24:16 <DiabloD3> bitcoin isn't a fiat currency in that sense
597 2010-10-08 06:24:26 <mesees> DiabloD3, it is 100%
598 2010-10-08 06:24:38 <joe_1> i can try to break down to him how it will keep value
599 2010-10-08 06:24:40 <lfm> I computer therfore I am
600 2010-10-08 06:24:40 <mesees> thats why i get the feeling there are no economists involved in this project
601 2010-10-08 06:24:47 <DiabloD3> its a virtual, as in representational, currency
602 2010-10-08 06:24:51 <a_meteorite> I'm calling troll on mesees
603 2010-10-08 06:24:56 <fedorared> There's an economics section on the forum though
604 2010-10-08 06:25:13 <mesees> a_meteorite, i wish -- im not that patient...just trying to understand
605 2010-10-08 06:25:20 <a_meteorite> mesees: and because I HATE HATE HATE being called a liar
606 2010-10-08 06:25:26 <DiabloD3> mesees: its no more a fiat currency than WoW Gold is.
607 2010-10-08 06:25:29 <lfm> mesees, just because there are no economists here doesnt mean there are none anywahere
608 2010-10-08 06:25:30 <a_meteorite> I'm uploading a screenshot for you as a big "screw off"
609 2010-10-08 06:25:45 <mesees> lfm, i agree
610 2010-10-08 06:25:59 <mesees> DiabloD3, you have proved my fiat point quite well
611 2010-10-08 06:26:11 <DiabloD3> not at all, I proved it wasn't a real world currency.
612 2010-10-08 06:26:20 <DiabloD3> to be a fiat currency, you have to be an ACTUAL currency first.
613 2010-10-08 06:26:31 <mesees> not really
614 2010-10-08 06:26:40 <a_meteorite> mesees: http://i54.tinypic.com/181012.png
615 2010-10-08 06:26:46 <DiabloD3> well then EVERYTHING is a fiat currency
616 2010-10-08 06:26:47 <mesees> plenty of newer nations never had "real" money
617 2010-10-08 06:26:50 <DiabloD3> disney dollars? fiat currency.
618 2010-10-08 06:26:54 <lfm> wow gold is actually real virtual currency
619 2010-10-08 06:26:57 <a_meteorite> so don't ever call me a liar again and saying I'm making shit up to make bitcoins. that's lame.
620 2010-10-08 06:26:59 <DiabloD3> game tokens? fiat currency.
621 2010-10-08 06:27:16 <DiabloD3> condoms? fiat currency. (and if you argue that, you've never been inside of a college dorm)
622 2010-10-08 06:27:16 <mesees> a_meteorite, well, that sux for you
623 2010-10-08 06:27:22 <lfm> subway tokens, some coin collectors specialize in subway tokens
624 2010-10-08 06:27:44 <joe_1> mesees- the bitcoin network makes collective confirmation decisions on where all the bitcoins are. The network will not create more than a fixed ceiling of coins. As long as the network remains strong, it will have legitimacy in its collective decisions. So you are left with a virtual commodity of fixed quantity in existence.
625 2010-10-08 06:27:56 <a_meteorite> yeah, so your point about paypal not caring about the IRS is invalidated, since they do. I'm not going to send PP more private information to have the privilege of being screwed over more.
626 2010-10-08 06:27:57 <mesees> a_meteorite, to be honest, you are lame if you think bitcoins is going to be an alternative. on one hand you guys say its an experiment, on the other you say its an alternative to paypal?!?!
627 2010-10-08 06:28:13 <fedorared> There is more than one opinion here
628 2010-10-08 06:28:15 <DiabloD3> joe_1: I've already told him this
629 2010-10-08 06:28:16 <a_meteorite> BTC will have demand once there are more users
630 2010-10-08 06:28:21 <DiabloD3> joe_1: he doesn't really think its a valid argument
631 2010-10-08 06:28:28 <DiabloD3> yet thats the problem it tried to solve, and it did so well.
632 2010-10-08 06:28:29 <joe_1> Once you establish the fixed quantity, then the value of the coins is a direct equation on the gross world product denominated by bitcoins. In other words, value is proportional to use.
633 2010-10-08 06:28:43 <a_meteorite> what joe_1 said
634 2010-10-08 06:28:53 <DiabloD3> lfm: oh, and btw, the term you're looking for I think is exonumia.
635 2010-10-08 06:29:05 <mesees> why arent you people in the commodity money room?
636 2010-10-08 06:29:34 <a_meteorite> it's kinda like metcalfe's law, but not for telecommunications, but for money
637 2010-10-08 06:29:39 <lfm> nope, I never heard that term so I couldnt have been looking for it but it may be what I was thinking
638 2010-10-08 06:29:41 <mesees> it seems to have everything you want minus the inability for anyone to explain what it is
639 2010-10-08 06:30:08 <joe_1> if we knew where the commodity money room is
640 2010-10-08 06:30:28 <lfm> mesees, yup, its still so new we havnt figured out the right way to describe it yet
641 2010-10-08 06:30:28 <mesees> joe_1, good point
642 2010-10-08 06:30:41 <DiabloD3> lfm: thats the term for numismatists who specialize in non-money tokens
643 2010-10-08 06:30:44 <mesees> well you guys have created the best IRC room in a while...
644 2010-10-08 06:30:48 <mesees> cig time brb
645 2010-10-08 06:32:18 <lfm> so why do coin collectors insist they should be called numismatists?
646 2010-10-08 06:34:23 <DiabloD3> exonumists are a subset of numismatists
647 2010-10-08 06:34:44 <DiabloD3> you were talking subway tokens, exonumists cover that kind of stuff
648 2010-10-08 06:35:42 <lfm> ya, I think I'll just forget the latin or whatever it is and call em subway coin collectors
649 2010-10-08 06:35:49 <DiabloD3> hee.
650 2010-10-08 06:35:56 <DiabloD3> I dunno, maybe mesees is right
651 2010-10-08 06:36:03 <DiabloD3> we need a "what is bitcoin for dummies" page
652 2010-10-08 06:36:07 <mesees> uh oh!
653 2010-10-08 06:36:17 <mesees> DiabloD3, YES U DO
654 2010-10-08 06:36:23 <DiabloD3> somehow to explain it to people who dont care about transactional security
655 2010-10-08 06:36:25 <lfm> for dummies and economists
656 2010-10-08 06:36:38 <DiabloD3> lfm: economists should already understand what the security of a banking system means
657 2010-10-08 06:36:51 <mesees> DiabloD3, but people who understand money and the evolution of money throughout history
658 2010-10-08 06:37:18 <DiabloD3> I mean, hell, the ACTUAL banking system could deploy something like this
659 2010-10-08 06:37:33 <lfm> mesees, then bitcoin is the next step in evolution of electronic money
660 2010-10-08 06:38:04 <mesees> i dont know what electronic money means...and it sure sounds 180 degrees away from what our society needs
661 2010-10-08 06:38:05 <DiabloD3> mesees: economists would understand this, however: transactions are free.
662 2010-10-08 06:38:33 <DiabloD3> the largest overhead for a merchant, atm, is the cost of transactions
663 2010-10-08 06:38:53 <lfm> mesees, most of the economy is electronic already, wire transfers and credit card transactions are electronic essentially
664 2010-10-08 06:39:05 <DiabloD3> yes, what lfm said
665 2010-10-08 06:39:14 <DiabloD3> and I can't verify, for example, a credit card transaction
666 2010-10-08 06:39:14 <joe_1> mesees do you have a fundamental opposition to economic freedom
667 2010-10-08 06:39:22 <DiabloD3> it CAN be reversed.
668 2010-10-08 06:39:25 <mesees> joe_1, haha, about as opposite as you can get
669 2010-10-08 06:39:32 <DiabloD3> _any_ transaction that can be reversed cannot be considered secure.
670 2010-10-08 06:39:35 <joe_1> so how are we 180 degrees from what society needs
671 2010-10-08 06:39:47 <mesees> i dont think you guys understand - i love the "idea" i just dont think its viable
672 2010-10-08 06:40:00 <DiabloD3> mesees: but what idea do you think is not viable?
673 2010-10-08 06:40:04 <mesees> joe_1, society needs real money, not hashes money
674 2010-10-08 06:40:16 <DiabloD3> a system that mathematically proves the existence of all currency, all transactions, and the contents of all wallets/
675 2010-10-08 06:40:21 <fedorared> Does it have to be commercially viable to be interesting?
676 2010-10-08 06:40:22 <joe_1> so you would push for a gold standard?
677 2010-10-08 06:40:29 <DiabloD3> this system can be deployed anywhere
678 2010-10-08 06:40:42 <mesees> this "money" is nothing - i may be missing the transactional part but it seems like a big facet of this idea is the idea that it is its own money
679 2010-10-08 06:40:52 <DiabloD3> mesees: no, thats just a side effect
680 2010-10-08 06:40:53 <lfm> mesees, actually your sense that it isn't viable is a common point of veiw for outsiders.
681 2010-10-08 06:41:01 <mesees> joe_1, yes
682 2010-10-08 06:41:22 <joe_1> so you're saying, because it doesn't dial in to the current wealth picture of the world, it's problematic?
683 2010-10-08 06:41:31 <DiabloD3> mesees must be rich
684 2010-10-08 06:41:55 <mesees> im saying it appears to me to only compound the problem of creating "wealth/money" from nothing
685 2010-10-08 06:42:14 <mesees> DiabloD3, far from it, i work hard though
686 2010-10-08 06:42:16 <DiabloD3> welcome to EVERY CURRENCY EVER.
687 2010-10-08 06:42:20 <joe_1> right- it created wealth, but the wealth creation is largely over with.
688 2010-10-08 06:42:24 <DiabloD3> who says USD is worth anything?
689 2010-10-08 06:42:26 <lfm> mesees, the key difference is still the lack of the central "issuing" authority. the security is in the net, not in any single node
690 2010-10-08 06:42:38 <mesees> DiabloD3, that is not true, again, there needs to be some economists in this group
691 2010-10-08 06:42:55 <DiabloD3> USD is worth something because everyone agrees it is worth something.
692 2010-10-08 06:43:08 <joe_1> USD is gold backed
693 2010-10-08 06:43:10 <DiabloD3> all currency is a representation of buying power
694 2010-10-08 06:43:12 <DiabloD3> joe_1: wrong
695 2010-10-08 06:43:16 <DiabloD3> hasnt been since the nixon days
696 2010-10-08 06:43:16 <mesees> lfm, but it still is fiat, it isnt the issuing thats the main problem, although it surely is a part --- its the fact its based on no value at all
697 2010-10-08 06:43:20 <a_meteorite> USD is fiat
698 2010-10-08 06:43:23 <joe_1> diablod3 i'm right on that one. there just isn't a window
699 2010-10-08 06:43:24 <fedorared> The US of A has gold, the USD is not gold based
700 2010-10-08 06:43:39 <DiabloD3> the USD is backed by the GDP of the US
701 2010-10-08 06:43:51 <DiabloD3> the more the world relies on us, the more our currency is worth over theirs.
702 2010-10-08 06:43:57 <joe_1> no, it's backed by gold and us government ability to collect
703 2010-10-08 06:44:07 <DiabloD3> it is not backed by gold.
704 2010-10-08 06:44:09 <DiabloD3> or silver.
705 2010-10-08 06:44:13 <mesees> DiabloD3, the USD is backed by more USD in the form of interest payments...
706 2010-10-08 06:44:15 <joe_1> google the federal reserve balance sheet
707 2010-10-08 06:44:21 <DiabloD3> mesees: partially.
708 2010-10-08 06:44:28 <lfm> mesees, so its fiat, so waht. taht doesnt really bother me. its an alternative and it has some redeeming qualities over for instance paypal, or credit cards.
709 2010-10-08 06:44:29 <mesees> ok ;)
710 2010-10-08 06:44:40 <fedorared> Can you trade in all USD in existence for gold? No.
711 2010-10-08 06:44:54 <DiabloD3> fedorared: technically yes, it'd cause the price of gold to sky rocket.
712 2010-10-08 06:44:58 <mesees> fedorared, which is why we are in the situation we're in
713 2010-10-08 06:45:10 <joe_1> there is no window like i said, but the USD is a placeholder for the gold under lock and key owned by the federal reserve
714 2010-10-08 06:45:13 <mesees> fedorared, this coin thing just seems to be that systems little brother
715 2010-10-08 06:45:16 <DiabloD3> so at some point we're looking at billions for an ounce
716 2010-10-08 06:45:25 <DiabloD3> mesees: its just a proof of concept
717 2010-10-08 06:45:26 <mesees> joe_1, youre joking right?!?!
718 2010-10-08 06:45:36 <DiabloD3> if it turns into a fully viable system, yay.
719 2010-10-08 06:45:42 <lfm> fedorared, you can buy gold at the going rate with practiclly any currency, if you couldnt there would be no jewelers
720 2010-10-08 06:45:43 <joe_1> no, i'm right on this one. look up the federal reserve balance sheet.
721 2010-10-08 06:45:53 <DiabloD3> lfm: wrong
722 2010-10-08 06:45:58 <DiabloD3> lfm: jewelers do not use monetary goild
723 2010-10-08 06:46:06 <fedorared> Not going rate, that's not a gold backed currency
724 2010-10-08 06:46:09 <mesees> joe_1, come on man, do some real reading and come back later
725 2010-10-08 06:46:16 <fedorared> At least not according to my vague understanding of it
726 2010-10-08 06:46:29 <a_meteorite> USD has been fiat for some time now, no gold backing
727 2010-10-08 06:46:32 <joe_1> mesees please look it up
728 2010-10-08 06:46:54 <mesees> joe_1, i spent 8 years of my life "looking it up" ive moved on and have a job now
729 2010-10-08 06:47:00 <joe_1> wikipedia federal reserve balance sheet-- let me grab a URL
730 2010-10-08 06:47:00 <lfm> DiabloD3, elemental gold is gold, you can turn jewelers gold into monetary gold and vice versa
731 2010-10-08 06:47:15 <DiabloD3> lfm: its a complex process to turn scrap gold into monetary gold
732 2010-10-08 06:47:28 <DiabloD3> lfm: I can't just go mint my own gold coins
733 2010-10-08 06:47:32 <joe_1> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System#Balance_sheet
734 2010-10-08 06:47:37 <mesees> DiabloD3, sure you can
735 2010-10-08 06:47:40 <a_meteorite> the whole Fed is a sham
736 2010-10-08 06:47:46 <DiabloD3> well, yes, I can, but no one would accept them
737 2010-10-08 06:47:52 <mesees> expensive to make them 999 but you can do it for sure
738 2010-10-08 06:47:53 <joe_1> Top left corner under assets: GOLD CERTIFICATES
739 2010-10-08 06:48:02 <DiabloD3> joe_1: that isnt what you think it is.
740 2010-10-08 06:48:12 <mesees> someone help joe_1 please
741 2010-10-08 06:48:20 <DiabloD3> Im not helping him, I need food
742 2010-10-08 06:48:21 <DiabloD3> afk
743 2010-10-08 06:48:26 <lfm> DiabloD3, anyone would accept them if you are upfront about the gold content and keep the quality up
744 2010-10-08 06:48:50 <mesees> i buy privately minted silver coins/bars
745 2010-10-08 06:48:54 <joe_1> mesees did you look at it
746 2010-10-08 06:49:01 <mesees> joe_1, NO
747 2010-10-08 06:49:33 <mesees> joe_1, i spent a lot of time and money knowing what i know - a wikipedia page about gold certificates is not going to change that
748 2010-10-08 06:49:51 <pankkake> this is ridiculous. you can't get gold with USD at a fixed rate, end of discussion
749 2010-10-08 06:50:15 <mesees> you cant get any gold for the USD from the fed
750 2010-10-08 06:50:30 <doublec> joe_1, wikipedia also says "Facing an emerging currency crisis and the imminent danger that the United States would no longer be able to redeem dollars for gold, gold convertibility was finally terminated in 1971 by President Nixon, resulting in the "Nixon shock. The value of the U.S. dollar was therefore no longer anchored to gold, and it fell upon the Federal Reserve to maintain the value of the U.S. currency. "
751 2010-10-08 06:50:37 <lfm> why does it need to be a fixed rate?
752 2010-10-08 06:51:15 <fedorared> Were gold notes traded at the market rate of gold? If so I didn't know that.
753 2010-10-08 06:51:21 <joe_1> There's no window but it's still anchored by gold. just not *fixed* by gold anymore.
754 2010-10-08 06:51:39 <mesees> joe_1, you are CRAZY!!!!
755 2010-10-08 06:51:48 <doublec> joe_1, about gold certificates it says: "...were issued by the Treasurer of the United States to Federal Reserve Banks only against an equal amount of gold bullion held by the Treasury. These notes were used for transactions between Federal Reserve Banks and were not circulated among the general public."
756 2010-10-08 06:52:04 <mesees> there is no relation between the number of dollars and the amount of gold...i can not even believe i am typing this
757 2010-10-08 06:52:12 <joe_1> of course they're not circulated-- they're held in promise to the USD outstanding.
758 2010-10-08 06:52:25 <lfm> hehehe
759 2010-10-08 06:52:32 <joe_1> mesees- how many times? i understand there is no window.
760 2010-10-08 06:52:35 <mesees> i think im in the twilight zone
761 2010-10-08 06:52:39 <lfm> facinating! (as spock would say)
762 2010-10-08 06:52:42 <fedorared> I think the Strategic Petroleum Reserve is a more important valuable commodity the USA is holding to be honest
763 2010-10-08 06:52:55 <doublec> what about the helium reserve? That's important too.
764 2010-10-08 06:53:03 <doublec> you USA people have a lot of reserves.
765 2010-10-08 06:53:18 <lfm> hemp reserve
766 2010-10-08 06:53:22 <pankkake> haha
767 2010-10-08 06:53:24 <doublec> that'll be what the trading on mtgox is. The government's building a bitcoin reserve.
768 2010-10-08 06:53:48 <joe_1> About 10% of the outstanding USD is backed by gold. The other 90% is margin, where the government prints new money on promise to be able to collect USD from others.
769 2010-10-08 06:53:53 <a_meteorite> we're gonna be selling off the helium reserve last I saw
770 2010-10-08 06:54:03 <a_meteorite> (hugely bad idea IMHO)
771 2010-10-08 06:54:14 <mesees> joe_1, you need sleep, ASAP
772 2010-10-08 06:54:32 <joe_1> sorry to have corrected you on something you've believed for years
773 2010-10-08 06:54:33 <a_meteorite> joe_1: wow I don't even know what to say
774 2010-10-08 06:54:46 <doublec> a_meteorite, yeah it's no longer being added to and is being sold off I believe
775 2010-10-08 06:55:06 <lfm> I think it was all sold off by 1980
776 2010-10-08 06:55:33 <doublec> ah, ok. My knowledge is old.
777 2010-10-08 06:55:45 <a_meteorite> that long ago? eh?
778 2010-10-08 06:55:45 <lfm> Im just guessing
779 2010-10-08 06:55:56 <mesees> joe_1, http://www.chartingstocks.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/money-supply.gif riddle me that
780 2010-10-08 06:56:20 <lfm> If it was started by Nixon , then Id expect it to last maybe 10 years before it was all gone
781 2010-10-08 06:56:56 <joe_1> mesees that is not M0 first of all
782 2010-10-08 06:57:19 <mesees> ok joe_1 good talking with you
783 2010-10-08 06:57:59 <joe_1> you're not very receptive to the truth
784 2010-10-08 06:58:26 <joe_1> you learned in high school that we went off the standard, always believed it, and now that's been shattered.
785 2010-10-08 06:58:28 <mesees> joe_1, a wikipedia article isnt truth...do i really have to tell you that
786 2010-10-08 06:58:50 <joe_1> you're saying the balance sheet is lying about the gold?
787 2010-10-08 06:58:58 <mesees> joe_1, like i said, ive done this for a lot longer than you (i can assume from you statements)...
788 2010-10-08 06:59:13 <joe_1> so you're bitter that you've been doing it so long and never realized this
789 2010-10-08 06:59:31 <mesees> yes joe_1 you have convinced me!!!
790 2010-10-08 06:59:37 <lfm> joe_1, I dont think anyone is buying it.
791 2010-10-08 06:59:42 <mesees> thank god you are here in the bitcoin chat to educate the educated
792 2010-10-08 07:00:18 <lfm> mesees, sarcasm is very unreliable in irc
793 2010-10-08 07:00:20 <joe_1> ok-- im curious. What exactly aren't people buying? I'm not claiming there is a window. i'm not claiming you can get the fed reserve gold for your dollars. all i'm saying is the federal reserve has gold in its possession that secures the dollar.
794 2010-10-08 07:00:43 <mesees> 10% right?
795 2010-10-08 07:00:46 <joe_1> yes
796 2010-10-08 07:00:55 <mesees> for knox most likely?
797 2010-10-08 07:01:08 <mesees> i watched it on the history channel
798 2010-10-08 07:01:11 <lfm> and we're saying if the fed happens to own any gold at all any more it has no effect whatsoever on the value of the dollar
799 2010-10-08 07:01:32 <mesees> and that die hard movie was pretty clear each country holds a gold vault in new york
800 2010-10-08 07:01:33 <a_meteorite> I'm not sure if your meaning of "secure" is the same as everyone else's
801 2010-10-08 07:01:49 <a_meteorite> :P
802 2010-10-08 07:02:05 <joe_1> it's a loose security
803 2010-10-08 07:02:23 <mesees> guy from china wins nobel peace prize
804 2010-10-08 07:02:48 <lfm> its an incidental property
805 2010-10-08 07:02:50 <joe_1> because the other 90% is merely a promise the government can reduce the amount of dollars to 10% again by collecting them from the people it lent them to
806 2010-10-08 07:03:19 <mesees> and the buyers of are debt are confident that can happen?
807 2010-10-08 07:03:33 <mesees> joe_1, you really are fucking crazy or incredibly dull
808 2010-10-08 07:04:31 <lfm> I dont think name calling advances the level of discorse
809 2010-10-08 07:04:36 <joe_1> being able to generate the interest on it is good enough so it would never actually have to happen
810 2010-10-08 07:04:49 <joe_1> being able to collect fast enough to meet interest, yes they are confident in that
811 2010-10-08 07:04:49 <mesees> lfm, i agree but i had to go there....this guy is irrational at best
812 2010-10-08 07:05:09 <lfm> I am thinking more naieve
813 2010-10-08 07:05:20 <mesees> something....man this room ROCKS!
814 2010-10-08 07:06:28 <joe_1> think about it mesees... you'll get it.
815 2010-10-08 07:07:08 <mesees> thanks for the advice joe_1 i assure you i have thought long and hard about it...
816 2010-10-08 07:07:12 <lfm> like I spent an hour trying to convince a guy that the 21 million bitcoin limit doesnt mean that say anyones annual income is then limited to 21 million or less. the concept of circulation just didnt get accross
817 2010-10-08 07:07:38 <mesees> as for the rock, welcome nathan7 you really have added to the debate this evening
818 2010-10-08 07:08:19 <nathan7> mesees: be careful, I'm an op
819 2010-10-08 07:08:20 <nathan7> usually
820 2010-10-08 07:08:28 <mesees> nathan7, cool
821 2010-10-08 07:08:50 <nathan7> =p
822 2010-10-08 07:08:53 <mesees> nathan7, like is said, thanks for adding a lot other than some irc physical threat
823 2010-10-08 07:09:06 <nathan7> It was sarcastic
824 2010-10-08 07:09:14 <nathan7> the op bit wasn't, the be careful bit is
825 2010-10-08 07:09:21 <mesees> haha
826 2010-10-08 07:09:25 <mesees> this place is awesome
827 2010-10-08 07:09:30 <mesees> good luck with your money
828 2010-10-08 07:09:50 <mesees> am i really getting "ima op" threats? for what?
829 2010-10-08 07:09:58 <lfm> name calling?
830 2010-10-08 07:10:00 <mesees> for debating?
831 2010-10-08 07:10:22 <mesees> there may have been a couple of names ;P
832 2010-10-08 07:10:33 <nathan7> It was a goddamn attempt at humour
833 2010-10-08 07:10:58 <mesees> i didnt grasp
834 2010-10-08 07:11:09 <lfm> I think I mentioned sarcasm is iffy in irc
835 2010-10-08 07:11:11 <mesees> still trying to wrap my head around this joe_1 guy
836 2010-10-08 07:11:26 <nathan7> lfm: Your sarcasm detector is broken
837 2010-10-08 07:11:38 <nathan7> have your sarcasm detector's turboencabulator replaced
838 2010-10-08 07:11:44 <lfm> perhpas your sarcasm projector is broken
839 2010-10-08 07:11:56 <mesees> is it ironic that a free currency room has Ops stating be careful ima op?
840 2010-10-08 07:12:09 <mesees> </sarcasm>
841 2010-10-08 07:12:11 <doublec> only if you're alanis morrisette
842 2010-10-08 07:12:37 <lfm> yup, cant forget this is irc not bitcoin
843 2010-10-08 07:12:37 <mesees> i think thats how mother russia got its legs
844 2010-10-08 07:13:48 <lfm> http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/hashes.png plot of bitcoin growth
845 2010-10-08 07:14:11 <lfm> notice the log axis
846 2010-10-08 07:14:17 <a_meteorite> all that extra heat :)
847 2010-10-08 07:14:54 <lfm> ya, were gonna melt the icecaps by 2020
848 2010-10-08 07:15:20 <a_meteorite> Bitcoin: The Free But Environmentally Damaging Currency
849 2010-10-08 07:15:53 <lfm> naw, melting the icecapps is good for the environment, just bad for people
850 2010-10-08 07:16:07 <a_meteorite> hehe
851 2010-10-08 07:16:35 <a_meteorite> destroy the planet and the planet will still be here, just not us or anything else possibly
852 2010-10-08 07:17:38 <lfm> I think there were no icecapps for much of the dinosaur's reign. We;ll give the reptiles another chance
853 2010-10-08 07:17:49 <nathan7> how about hamsters
854 2010-10-08 07:17:54 <DiabloD3> back
855 2010-10-08 07:17:59 <DiabloD3> so, thats great
856 2010-10-08 07:18:46 <lfm> good food DiabloD3 ?
857 2010-10-08 07:18:51 <mesees> good talk - ill be back :) have a great evening all!
858 2010-10-08 07:18:57 <lfm> bye
859 2010-10-08 07:20:13 <DiabloD3> no, liu xiaobo won the nobel peace prize
860 2010-10-08 07:20:50 <lfm> has anyone heard of him or is it her?
861 2010-10-08 07:21:46 <joe_1> no
862 2010-10-08 07:21:53 <joe_1> he was coked up i think
863 2010-10-08 07:21:55 <DiabloD3> lfm: famous supporter of human rights in china
864 2010-10-08 07:22:08 <DiabloD3> currently in prison for doing so
865 2010-10-08 07:23:22 <nathan7> :o
866 2010-10-08 07:24:49 <lfm> I like that quote, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu says "His acts are completely contrary to the purpose of the Nobel Peace Prize."
867 2010-10-08 07:25:17 <lfm> Sorta shows how outa touch they are.
868 2010-10-08 07:25:46 <nathan7> lol
869 2010-10-08 07:25:53 <edcba> he was speaking about obama ?
870 2010-10-08 07:26:13 <lfm> Jailed Chinese democracy and human rights advocate Liu Xiaobo has won this year's Nobel Peace Prize.
871 2010-10-08 07:27:49 <DiabloD3> I wonder if China wants war.
872 2010-10-08 07:28:02 <lfm> war with who?
873 2010-10-08 07:28:07 <DiabloD3> Earth.
874 2010-10-08 07:28:39 <lfm> you mean the rest of the world against china? I doubt it
875 2010-10-08 07:29:01 <T_X-> DiabloD3: why should china want so?
876 2010-10-08 07:29:53 <lfm> just they have their own way of doing things there, they think they are actually more civilized than the rest of the world cuz they been trying civilization longer than anyone.
877 2010-10-08 07:30:50 <DiabloD3> lfm: you mean except for the fact they regularly beat and rape women
878 2010-10-08 07:30:54 <DiabloD3> and then blame the women
879 2010-10-08 07:31:09 <nathan7> :o
880 2010-10-08 07:31:20 <nathan7> that's crazy shit
881 2010-10-08 07:31:21 <DiabloD3> or put people who promote democracy in labor camps, where often they die
882 2010-10-08 07:31:31 <DiabloD3> or have children working in dangerous conditions
883 2010-10-08 07:31:35 <lfm> among other things ya, I think they may be trying to stop that in some circles tho
884 2010-10-08 07:31:39 <nathan7> But as long as we get cheap shit made in china, nobody complains
885 2010-10-08 07:31:53 <lfm> nathan7, lots of people complain
886 2010-10-08 07:31:54 <nathan7> And nobody in China dares to complain, because it'll cost them their life
887 2010-10-08 07:32:00 <nathan7> lfm: no government complains.
888 2010-10-08 07:32:06 <DiabloD3> nathan7: I dunno, if I was President, I'd be promoting doing business with America first
889 2010-10-08 07:32:19 <DiabloD3> if you're American, and you're not buying American, what the hell is wrong with you
890 2010-10-08 07:32:19 <nathan7> Everyone was all "OMG, the commies" with the soviet republic
891 2010-10-08 07:32:22 <nathan7> Chloramphenicol is a rare example of a naturally occurring nitro compound. 2-Nitrophenol is an aggregation pheromone of ticks. Two only known examples of aliphatic nitro compounds include 3-nitropropionic acid found in fungi and plants (Indigofera, e.g.), and nitropentadecene, a defense compound found in termites. Many flavin-dependent enzymes are capable of oxidizing aliphatic nitro compounds to less-toxic aldehydes and ketones. Nitroalkane oxida
892 2010-10-08 07:32:29 <nathan7> oops
893 2010-10-08 07:32:55 <DiabloD3> I mean, all these fuckers who buy Fords
894 2010-10-08 07:32:57 <DiabloD3> thanks guys
895 2010-10-08 07:33:06 <DiabloD3> lets keep paying the mexican drug lords to build our cars
896 2010-10-08 07:33:15 <DiabloD3> buy a fucking Toyota, buy American.
897 2010-10-08 07:33:16 <nathan7> Now it's China and they sell us cheap shit, nobody complains about the human rights and freedom of speech
898 2010-10-08 07:33:21 <nathan7> Toyota?
899 2010-10-08 07:33:42 <DiabloD3> Toyota is the only major car brand that is built in America anymore
900 2010-10-08 07:33:45 <lfm> where theyre assembled
901 2010-10-08 07:33:57 <DiabloD3> the "big three in detroit" are almost entirely foreign made
902 2010-10-08 07:34:13 <DiabloD3> ford, gm, chrysler
903 2010-10-08 07:34:15 <DiabloD3> all foreign trash
904 2010-10-08 07:34:26 <DiabloD3> the few fords, gms, and chryslers we DO make in the US are shipped to Europe
905 2010-10-08 07:34:30 <DiabloD3> we cant buy them locally
906 2010-10-08 07:34:33 <nathan7> Toyota is Japanese
907 2010-10-08 07:34:34 <lfm> the best cars now are Korean
908 2010-10-08 07:34:40 <DiabloD3> nathan7: yet manufacturered in the US
909 2010-10-08 07:34:52 <DiabloD3> not very Japanese is it.
910 2010-10-08 07:35:06 <nathan7> DiabloD3: manufactured or the wheels put on
911 2010-10-08 07:35:13 <DiabloD3> actually manufactured
912 2010-10-08 07:35:17 <nathan7> :o
913 2010-10-08 07:35:23 <lfm> I think Toyota assembles cars in like 97 countries or something
914 2010-10-08 07:35:25 <DiabloD3> the only thing that isnt is commodity parts like plastic handles and shit
915 2010-10-08 07:35:39 <DiabloD3> lfm: they _assemble_ cars in quite a few
916 2010-10-08 07:36:03 <DiabloD3> Ford _assembles_ cars in the US for US customers
917 2010-10-08 07:36:06 <DiabloD3> but they're not MADE here
918 2010-10-08 07:36:17 <DiabloD3> I bet they don't even use american steel
919 2010-10-08 07:36:24 <DiabloD3> its probably imported chinese shit
920 2010-10-08 07:36:31 <lfm> america doesnt make steel any more
921 2010-10-08 07:36:42 <nathan7> Who the fuck cares about where the steel comes from?
922 2010-10-08 07:36:43 <DiabloD3> we dont make as much
923 2010-10-08 07:36:45 <DiabloD3> but we DO make it
924 2010-10-08 07:36:47 <nathan7> It's just carbon and iron
925 2010-10-08 07:36:54 <DiabloD3> nathan7: because why are we taking jobs away from americans and giving it to the chinese?
926 2010-10-08 07:36:59 <nathan7> DiabloD3: hmm
927 2010-10-08 07:37:08 <DiabloD3> not only that, steel production requires a lot of electricity
928 2010-10-08 07:37:17 <DiabloD3> have you SEEN how the chinese produce electricity?
929 2010-10-08 07:37:29 <jrabbit> I actually haven't isn't it mostly coal?
930 2010-10-08 07:37:36 <DiabloD3> its very dirty coal
931 2010-10-08 07:37:55 <jrabbit> they also repsonded to an oi lspil the same way we do
932 2010-10-08 07:38:00 <DiabloD3> theres no such thing as clean coal, but most first world countries have various restrictions on the toxic output of coal plants
933 2010-10-08 07:38:10 <jrabbit> that was the ultimate low point of the BP gulf disaster for me
934 2010-10-08 07:38:14 <DiabloD3> jrabbit: well
935 2010-10-08 07:38:16 <DiabloD3> if I was president
936 2010-10-08 07:38:20 <DiabloD3> there would have been no "disaster"
937 2010-10-08 07:38:33 <jrabbit> China caring fuckall for the "enviroment" doign the same shit
938 2010-10-08 07:38:33 <nathan7> But, you weren't president
939 2010-10-08 07:38:35 <DiabloD3> it would have been cleaned up, and BP officials would have been arrested on terrorism charges.
940 2010-10-08 07:38:37 <nathan7> and you probably won't be
941 2010-10-08 07:38:44 <jrabbit> day 3
942 2010-10-08 07:38:45 <DiabloD3> I probably won't be because I have common sense.
943 2010-10-08 07:38:48 <DiabloD3> jrabbit: not an option
944 2010-10-08 07:38:52 <jrabbit> sure it is
945 2010-10-08 07:38:58 <DiabloD3> not for that well it wasn't
946 2010-10-08 07:39:06 <jrabbit> the USSR did it with 50% accuracy
947 2010-10-08 07:39:15 <DiabloD3> ground was too fractured, and the well wasn't deep enough, and it was also at very high pressure
948 2010-10-08 07:39:16 <jrabbit> DiabloD3: well it'd have to be well engineered, yes
949 2010-10-08 07:39:34 <DiabloD3> deepwater horizon was the first well drilled that deep
950 2010-10-08 07:39:37 <jrabbit> DiabloD3: how do you know? did they actually investigate that?
951 2010-10-08 07:39:44 <DiabloD3> the US investigated it as an option
952 2010-10-08 07:39:46 <jrabbit> (no they did not invesitgate any options)
953 2010-10-08 07:39:57 <jrabbit> no one with descision making authority...
954 2010-10-08 07:40:01 <jrabbit> BP was given veto power.
955 2010-10-08 07:40:11 <DiabloD3> you do realize there are engineers OUTSIDE of BP and the government, right?
956 2010-10-08 07:40:15 <nathan7> :o
957 2010-10-08 07:40:18 <DiabloD3> it was not a viable option.
958 2010-10-08 07:40:43 <DiabloD3> one of the viable options they DID do... but started about 60 days too late.
959 2010-10-08 07:41:37 <lfm> Shouldv just let Kevin Costner clean it up! hehe
960 2010-10-08 07:42:11 <DiabloD3> as President, I would have just declared it a national emergency and ordered the rest of the government to shove BP out of the way and fix it
961 2010-10-08 07:42:20 <DiabloD3> we could fight about who pays for it afterwards
962 2010-10-08 07:42:24 <DiabloD3> starting on day 15.
963 2010-10-08 07:42:39 <DiabloD3> since thats how long it would have taken to have the effort almost done
964 2010-10-08 07:42:42 <lfm> cuz the government is always the most efficient way to do things
965 2010-10-08 07:42:50 <DiabloD3> it is when you have someone with balls.
966 2010-10-08 07:43:02 <lfm> look at how quickly they fixed up New Orleans
967 2010-10-08 07:43:08 <jrabbit> lol.
968 2010-10-08 07:43:17 <DiabloD3> did bush have balls? I'm going with 'no'
969 2010-10-08 07:43:25 <joe_1> he shot cheney
970 2010-10-08 07:43:29 <lfm> big woppin ones
971 2010-10-08 07:43:37 <DiabloD3> lfm: in that case, he had the wrong kind
972 2010-10-08 07:43:37 <jrabbit> sure he did he teabagged new oreleans from a helicopter.
973 2010-10-08 07:44:14 <DiabloD3> the job of the president has rather changed from what the constitution laid out....
974 2010-10-08 07:44:23 <DiabloD3> his job is now to keep the country together and functioning
975 2010-10-08 07:44:32 <DiabloD3> when was the last time a president actually did this?
976 2010-10-08 07:44:52 <Netsniper> govt is a cult
977 2010-10-08 07:45:09 <DiabloD3> Netsniper: in a sense, it should be