1 2010-10-11 00:01:43 <woleium> Hola :-)
  2 2010-10-11 00:04:21 <redengin> solomon codes to distribute the key
  3 2010-10-11 00:05:00 <redengin> whoops wrong window
  4 2010-10-11 00:05:34 <woleium> I'm running the headless bitcoind on linux (32) and am getting the DNS mismatch error. I'm guessing that I have to specify my hostname in bitcoin.conf? How else does the daemon get the local server name?
  5 2010-10-11 00:09:03 <theymos> Zarutian: You'd create a scriptPubKey like this, I think: <pubKey1> <pubKey2> 2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG. Then the output can only be claimed if two signatures matching the public keys are provided (one belonging to the escrow, one to you). I don't see how this would create an escrow situation like Satoshi has described, though (where two separate authorizations are made in different transactions).
  6 2010-10-11 00:09:23 <theymos> woleium: What's the error text?
  7 2010-10-11 00:10:16 <woleium> theymos: I'll let you know in a moment.. just rebooting for good luck ;-)
  8 2010-10-11 00:12:11 <woleium> IRC :irc.smutfairy.com NOTICE AUTH :*** Your forward and reverse DNS do not match, ignoring hostname.
  9 2010-10-11 00:13:34 <woleium> theymos: I notice that the debug log also states: addrLocalHost = [IP ADDRESS]:8333 - shouldnt that be my dns address instead of an IP?
 10 2010-10-11 00:14:12 <theymos> woleium: There's nothing you can do about that. It's an issue with your ISP. You should still be connecting to IRC. Is that appearing outside of debug.log, though?
 11 2010-10-11 00:14:48 <woleium> uuh, with the headless client all you get is the debug log isn't it?
 12 2010-10-11 00:15:36 <theymos> It's not showing up on the console, though?
 13 2010-10-11 00:15:48 <woleium> but no, I've net seen it appear anywhere else... Is it usual for the client to time out alot at first?
 14 2010-10-11 00:16:32 <doublec> isn't that just a standard response from an irc server saying when your DNS is setup like that?
 15 2010-10-11 00:17:14 <theymos> woleium: Does it usually time out after that message?
 16 2010-10-11 00:17:59 <woleium> well it was, but a reboot seems to have fixed everything.. it's all good now :-)
 17 2010-10-11 00:18:17 <woleium> perhaps I was just being a little impatient :-S
 18 2010-10-11 00:19:20 <theymos> woleium: Are you using latest SVN?
 19 2010-10-11 00:19:36 <woleium> nope, the version off of the website.. is svn better?
 20 2010-10-11 00:20:19 <theymos> woleium: The issue's supposed to be fixed in SVN. See http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0
 21 2010-10-11 00:21:45 <woleium> theymos: aah, i see. I'll try the svn version. thanks :-)
 22 2010-10-11 00:28:54 <DiabloD3> wee
 23 2010-10-11 00:29:00 <DiabloD3> anyone see m0 lately?
 24 2010-10-11 00:46:04 <lfm> DiabloD3, you had any success getting that miner working on your nvidia card? I got an old nvidia card on linux 64 that I have started trying to get working too.
 25 2010-10-11 00:46:44 <lfm> or was that you?
 26 2010-10-11 00:47:09 <DiabloD3> I dont have an nvidia card.
 27 2010-10-11 00:47:44 <DiabloD3> nvidia DOES have opencl built for linux64, so it should be working fine for you
 28 2010-10-11 00:48:13 <lfm> I am new at opencl stuff tho, havin trouble getting started
 29 2010-10-11 00:48:24 <DiabloD3> did you patch your bitcoind with getwork?
 30 2010-10-11 00:49:29 <lfm> still having trouble building both the python-cl stuff and the opencl compiler-linker stuff
 31 2010-10-11 00:49:40 <DiabloD3> I didnt bother building that
 32 2010-10-11 00:49:50 <DiabloD3> I use the deb for that
 33 2010-10-11 00:50:38 <lfm> k, I didn't find packages for those. must not have looked hard enuf
 34 2010-10-11 00:51:02 <DiabloD3> python-opencl
 35 2010-10-11 00:51:15 <DiabloD3> which also installs the relevant parts of the nvidia driver
 36 2010-10-11 00:52:29 <DiabloD3> the only thing you have to install manually is http://json-rpc.org/wiki/python-json-rpc
 37 2010-10-11 00:52:40 <DiabloD3> debian packages every python json package BUT that one
 38 2010-10-11 00:54:01 <lfm> k, thanks fo rthe hints, iLL SEE WHAT i CAN FIND THEN
 39 2010-10-11 00:54:09 <lfm> oops dam caps lock
 40 2010-10-11 00:54:14 <DiabloD3> you also have to edit .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
 41 2010-10-11 00:54:19 <DiabloD3> which doesnt exist for you yet
 42 2010-10-11 00:54:31 <DiabloD3> add two lines, rpcuser=something rpcpassword=something
 43 2010-10-11 00:54:48 <DiabloD3> and do it while bitcoind isnt running
 44 2010-10-11 00:55:20 <DiabloD3> then run python ./poclbm.py --user something --pasword something
 45 2010-10-11 00:55:29 <DiabloD3> http://github.com/m0mchil/bitcoin-getwork
 46 2010-10-11 00:55:35 <DiabloD3> and you must use the getwork patch
 47 2010-10-11 00:55:48 <lfm> ya, thats later I guess, try and find those packages first. seems ubutu doesnt like the python-opencl
 48 2010-10-11 00:55:56 <DiabloD3> ubuntu is retarded
 49 2010-10-11 00:55:59 <DiabloD3> you should be using debian
 50 2010-10-11 00:56:49 <doublec> ubuntu 10.10 has python-opencl\n16552
 51 2010-10-11 00:57:13 <DiabloD3> isnt 10.10 out now?
 52 2010-10-11 00:57:30 <DiabloD3> oh right, they released it on october 10th, at 10:10 am
 53 2010-10-11 00:57:31 <DiabloD3> losers
 54 2010-10-11 00:57:41 <DiabloD3> ubuntu will not, and never will be, a dreamcast.
 55 2010-10-11 00:58:31 <lfm> ok ya 10.10 is rc. I was trying to do it on 10.04
 56 2010-10-11 01:06:55 <DiabloD3> lfm: btw, as a side note, the getwork patch works best on 0.3.13 == svn rev 161
 57 2010-10-11 01:29:39 <Kiba> so
 58 2010-10-11 01:29:45 <Kiba> bytemaster is missing
 59 2010-10-11 01:30:24 <DiabloD3> m0 is missing too
 60 2010-10-11 01:35:49 <Kiba> m0?
 61 2010-10-11 01:36:30 <Kiba> we have an escrow agent missing...
 62 2010-10-11 01:37:03 <Kiba> noagendamarket made the stupid mistake of donating 8000ish bitcoins without checking if bytemaster is alive
 63 2010-10-11 02:05:37 <noagendamarket> yeah its stupid but hes been on the forum not long ago
 64 2010-10-11 02:05:44 <noagendamarket> a few days in fact
 65 2010-10-11 02:05:59 <noagendamarket> if you check his history
 66 2010-10-11 02:36:40 <Kiba> 9 days...
 67 2010-10-11 02:52:40 <theymos> I'm reimplementing base58.h in PHP. Everything works fine when ADDRESSVERSION is 00, but when I change it to 01, my Hash160ToAddress returns addresses that don't start with 2 (and don't decode correctly with AddressToHash160). Anyone know what might cause this? I think it might be my handling of leading zeros. He's the code: http://pastebin.com/ixh5z4RY
 68 2010-10-11 02:53:54 <ArtForz> theymos: sorry, test has ADDRESSVERSION = 255
 69 2010-10-11 02:54:34 <noagendamarket> kiba I donated a wek ago
 70 2010-10-11 02:54:42 <noagendamarket> *week
 71 2010-10-11 02:54:50 <theymos> ArtForz: I'm dealing with the main network. I'm just trying to make my code future-proof and correct.
 72 2010-10-11 02:55:35 <ArtForz> k
 73 2010-10-11 03:02:42 <ArtForz> leading zeros handing in bitcoin is weird, I think my code is also incorrect :/
 74 2010-10-11 03:09:58 <theymos> ArtForz: Do you do it the same way I do (1=0x00)?
 75 2010-10-11 03:10:32 <ArtForz> yeah
 76 2010-10-11 03:10:57 <ArtForz> your code looks like it should work exactly as bitcoins
 77 2010-10-11 03:13:45 <theymos> I know I did something wrong, since Hash160ToAddress doesn't create output consistent with AddressToHash160. I suppose it doesn't really matter; I'll have to rewrite everything if the version every actually changes.
 78 2010-10-11 03:14:34 <theymos> Thanks for taking a look.
 79 2010-10-11 03:14:39 <ArtForz> hrrrm
 80 2010-10-11 03:14:57 <ArtForz> are you sure addresstohash160 is correct?
 81 2010-10-11 03:15:22 <ArtForz> = does it decode a TEST addr to something with version byte == 0xFF ?
 82 2010-10-11 03:15:58 <theymos> Do you have a sample address/hash pair I could try?
 83 2010-10-11 03:16:56 <theymos> Here's addressToHash160: http://pastebin.com/XAbuZYKt
 84 2010-10-11 03:18:39 <ArtForz> I think that substr might be wrong
 85 2010-10-11 03:20:21 <ArtForz> notice how trunk DecodeBase58 copies the decoded bignum so it aligns to the *end* of vchRet
 86 2010-10-11 03:22:47 <ArtForz> well, ok, should be ok
 87 2010-10-11 03:23:11 <theymos> I don't understand the implication of that. The substr is supposed to remove the two-character version and the check code.
 88 2010-10-11 03:23:32 <ArtForz> hrrrm
 89 2010-10-11 03:24:07 <ArtForz> do you get version FF decoding 2mwSLP7S6rdNhxCbagKFQZ6cgbNLEXiu3nr ?
 90 2010-10-11 03:26:11 <theymos> Yes.
 91 2010-10-11 03:26:33 <theymos> It decodes into 0xD32981BF69B9DD73FB5F2B545B017A754A9A6C69. Is that right?
 92 2010-10-11 03:27:57 <ArtForz> yep
 93 2010-10-11 03:28:31 <ArtForz> with verion FF and checksum 58BD7ADB
 94 2010-10-11 03:28:38 <theymos> Maybe it's only versions 01-09 (or assymetric versions) that are causing me trouble.
 95 2010-10-11 03:30:01 <ArtForz> weird
 96 2010-10-11 03:34:17 <theymos> Yep, it's versions 01-09. My substr is cutting them off because the 0 is not included. I'll add a special exception. Thanks for your help!
 97 2010-10-11 03:34:53 <ArtForz> duh
 98 2010-10-11 03:39:08 <DiabloD3> [11:35:49] <Kiba> m0?
 99 2010-10-11 03:39:13 <DiabloD3> m0mshii
100 2010-10-11 04:15:00 <DiabloD3> heeeeehhhhh
101 2010-10-11 04:15:24 <DiabloD3> I love how the main thread in a java app can exception->die
102 2010-10-11 04:15:32 <DiabloD3> and it leaves everything else going
103 2010-10-11 04:48:33 <Keefe_> anyone have a better idea (i read the forum post and chat logs) of how much paypal stole from mtgox and how soon mtgox will be able to re-enable withdrawals of usd by other means?
104 2010-10-11 05:01:57 <noagendamarket> i dont think paypal stole much he didnt have his money there they just closed his account
105 2010-10-11 05:11:35 <DiabloD3> Keefe_: pp raided mtgox?
106 2010-10-11 05:11:58 <DiabloD3> noagendamarket: no, pp loves to attack people who do a lot of transactions
107 2010-10-11 05:12:21 <Keefe_> PP froze mtgox's PP acct
108 2010-10-11 05:12:36 <nathan7> :o
109 2010-10-11 05:13:11 <Keefe_> in my opinion, mtgox will never get the money back. but it's possible
110 2010-10-11 05:13:26 <nathan7> We are PayPal
111 2010-10-11 05:13:30 <nathan7> PayPal does not forgive
112 2010-10-11 05:13:33 <Keefe_> mtgox says he only kept some of members' usd in paypal
113 2010-10-11 05:13:41 <nathan7> PayPal is everywhere
114 2010-10-11 05:13:43 <DiabloD3> well, whats a better way of selling bitcoins then?
115 2010-10-11 05:14:20 <Keefe_> so as soon as he gets another transfer method setup we'll be able to withdraw usd again
116 2010-10-11 05:14:37 <Keefe_> but i don't know how much usd he actually lost and how he'll handle that
117 2010-10-11 05:15:39 <Keefe_> you can still deposit and withdraw btc from mtgox, and trading is still going on, so you can use mtgox to play the market as long as you end with btc again
118 2010-10-11 05:15:56 <Keefe_> try to buy usd low, sell usd high, etc
119 2010-10-11 05:16:34 <Keefe_> and you can accumulate usd if you want to bet he'll get everything working again
120 2010-10-11 05:16:57 <Keefe_> he probably will
121 2010-10-11 05:17:11 <lfm> DiabloD3, would you mind looking at http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1334.msg16521#msg16521 to see if you can make sense of it?
122 2010-10-11 05:17:32 <Keefe_> as for selling btc and getting your usd right now? try bitcoinmarket
123 2010-10-11 05:17:50 <Keefe_> better yet, avoid paypal
124 2010-10-11 05:18:05 <Keefe_> sell btc for LR or MB at BCM
125 2010-10-11 05:18:12 <lfm> mail me a cheque?
126 2010-10-11 05:20:22 <DiabloD3> lfm: I dont think an 8400GS can do opencl
127 2010-10-11 05:20:38 <lfm> the nvidia site claimed it could
128 2010-10-11 05:21:01 <Keefe_> it can
129 2010-10-11 05:21:06 <Keefe_> my laptop has that
130 2010-10-11 05:21:15 <DiabloD3> and no, i32 has nothing to do with archs
131 2010-10-11 05:21:25 <lfm> laptop has 8400M vesrion or regular version?
132 2010-10-11 05:21:31 <Keefe_> 8400m GS
133 2010-10-11 05:21:46 <lfm> k I got  the pci-express version
134 2010-10-11 05:22:03 <lfm> not much difference
135 2010-10-11 05:22:11 <DiabloD3> lfm: no clue why it snot working
136 2010-10-11 05:22:16 <DiabloD3> whatever it is, its wrong with nvidia's shit
137 2010-10-11 05:22:20 <lfm> k thanks for looking
138 2010-10-11 05:22:53 <DiabloD3> lfm: yeah, its clearly an nvidia bug
139 2010-10-11 05:22:58 <DiabloD3> go buy an ATI card
140 2010-10-11 05:23:20 <lfm> ya I got a line on a 5770 for 105$cdn
141 2010-10-11 05:24:01 <DiabloD3> quite expensive
142 2010-10-11 05:24:13 <lfm> was $160 last week
143 2010-10-11 05:24:54 <Keefe_> there still are large asks at mtgox, big traders willing to bet their usd will be withdrawable eventually i guess
144 2010-10-11 05:25:17 <DiabloD3> lfm: they're about usd$120
145 2010-10-11 05:25:22 <Netsniper> i want my money today
146 2010-10-11 05:25:23 <DiabloD3> and its not even worth it
147 2010-10-11 05:25:25 <Netsniper> put it in the bag
148 2010-10-11 05:25:27 <DiabloD3> wait until 6000 series come out
149 2010-10-11 05:26:10 <lfm> I doubt new ones will be cheaper, but maybe thats why the prices are dropping now, trying to reduce inventory for new models
150 2010-10-11 05:27:19 <ArtForz> well, replacement for 57xx is probably still a long way off
151 2010-10-11 05:27:28 <Netsniper> is it ok to say bad words in here?
152 2010-10-11 05:27:37 <DiabloD3> lfm: its not that its cheaper, its that it'll shove 5000 prices down
153 2010-10-11 05:27:38 <lfm> anyway the 5770 would be way faster than the 8400GS
154 2010-10-11 05:27:39 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: I dunno
155 2010-10-11 05:27:47 <DiabloD3> Im expecting 67xx in q1
156 2010-10-11 05:27:53 <ArtForz> yeah
157 2010-10-11 05:27:55 <lfm> Netsniper, no fuckin way, keep it clean
158 2010-10-11 05:28:01 <Netsniper> ok
159 2010-10-11 05:28:04 <ArtForz> unless they want to pull a 4770 again
160 2010-10-11 05:28:10 <DiabloD3> Netsniper: I swear constantly.
161 2010-10-11 05:28:20 <Netsniper> well i'll be damned
162 2010-10-11 05:29:46 <lfm> does anyone have experience with the nvidia opencl compile error messages?
163 2010-10-11 05:30:38 <ArtForz> unless something fundamentally changed barts xt should be about 10% faster than 5850
164 2010-10-11 05:30:57 <DiabloD3> and if something did... its even faster
165 2010-10-11 05:31:09 <DiabloD3> actually, the big thing is the vast increase in memory bandwidth
166 2010-10-11 05:31:10 <ArtForz> and barts pro halfway between 5770 and 5830
167 2010-10-11 05:31:14 <Netsniper> 2 minutes from now
168 2010-10-11 05:31:19 <DiabloD3> it doesnt help bitcoin, but goddamned games should fly
169 2010-10-11 05:31:22 <ArtForz> except we don't need mem bandwidth :/
170 2010-10-11 05:31:28 <ArtForz> yep
171 2010-10-11 05:31:39 <DiabloD3> maybe Ill finally be able to play crysis!!!!111oneone
172 2010-10-11 05:31:56 <ArtForz> also looks like barts might have 2x the tesselation perf of a 5870 ...
173 2010-10-11 05:32:09 <DiabloD3> thats not too helpful for one reason
174 2010-10-11 05:32:15 <lfm> is barts the 6xxx?
175 2010-10-11 05:32:27 <ArtForz> first chip of 6xxx series
176 2010-10-11 05:32:28 <DiabloD3> nvidia 8000-400 and radeon 2000/3000/4000 have a fixed function tess
177 2010-10-11 05:32:29 <Netsniper> which videocard has the fastest jigglebits?
178 2010-10-11 05:32:41 <ArtForz> expected late oct/early nov
179 2010-10-11 05:32:50 <DiabloD3> only 5000 and 6000 can do the fully programmable tess pipeline
180 2010-10-11 05:32:53 <DiabloD3> so FFFFFFFFF
181 2010-10-11 05:32:59 <ArtForz> errr... no
182 2010-10-11 05:33:11 <DiabloD3> I can build a 3D engine that does EVERYTHING on, by default, except for tess.
183 2010-10-11 05:33:18 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: yup.
184 2010-10-11 05:33:26 <ArtForz> a 5870 has exactly the same tess perf as a 5770
185 2010-10-11 05:33:43 <DiabloD3> heh
186 2010-10-11 05:33:45 <DiabloD3> but seriously
187 2010-10-11 05:33:49 <DiabloD3> I can do EVERYTHING
188 2010-10-11 05:33:53 <ArtForz> check the AMD evergreen architecture/asm manual
189 2010-10-11 05:33:54 <DiabloD3> any stupid trick you've seen
190 2010-10-11 05:33:58 <DiabloD3> and I can turn it on by default
191 2010-10-11 05:34:14 <ArtForz> DX tesselation is still handled by a fixed-function tesselator for 5xxx
192 2010-10-11 05:34:14 <DiabloD3> and it'll work on nvidia 8000-400 and radeon 2000-4000
193 2010-10-11 05:34:22 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: you're missing the point
194 2010-10-11 05:34:56 <ArtForz> of course with 5xxx you *can* implement tesselation using shaders
195 2010-10-11 05:34:59 <DiabloD3> oh, and the fixed function tess on both nvidia and ati was not meant to deal with high poly models
196 2010-10-11 05:35:04 <DiabloD3> which makes it useless.
197 2010-10-11 05:35:11 <ArtForz> which was impossible on earlier gens
198 2010-10-11 05:35:21 <DiabloD3> but why the fucking hell did nvidia build the 400 series wrong
199 2010-10-11 05:35:44 <DiabloD3> and the 500 series _IF_ it comes out, assuming nvidia doesnt file for bankruptcy first, probably wont have it either
200 2010-10-11 05:36:01 <ArtForz> probably because 300 was a clusterfuck and fermi wasn't originally designed as a GPU
201 2010-10-11 05:36:14 <DiabloD3> fermi was designed as a gpu
202 2010-10-11 05:36:16 <DiabloD3> in the sense that
203 2010-10-11 05:36:24 <DiabloD3> 8000 through 400 is all the same fucking shit
204 2010-10-11 05:36:26 <DiabloD3> same arch
205 2010-10-11 05:36:28 <DiabloD3> no changes.
206 2010-10-11 05:36:32 <ArtForz> errr, no, it was targeted at HPC
207 2010-10-11 05:36:37 <DiabloD3> its still the same stuff
208 2010-10-11 05:36:46 <DiabloD3> nvidia has not innovated in a very long time
209 2010-10-11 05:37:02 <DiabloD3> they just keep shrinking the die and increasing the speed and adding more pipes
210 2010-10-11 05:37:04 <ArtForz> thats why it has 4x the DP perf of a 200 per shader*clock
211 2010-10-11 05:37:54 <ArtForz> nobody uses DP for games
212 2010-10-11 05:37:56 <lfm> well if everyone rates em by gflops, it makes sense to do that
213 2010-10-11 05:38:50 <ArtForz> so my guess is 300 should have been the new consumer GPU and fermi a HPC part
214 2010-10-11 05:38:54 <lfm> except gflops is usually single precision
215 2010-10-11 05:39:21 <ArtForz> yep
216 2010-10-11 05:39:36 <ArtForz> what we're interested in is integer perf, really
217 2010-10-11 05:39:45 <ArtForz> and fermi also fails at that
218 2010-10-11 05:39:56 <lfm> for BTC for sure integers
219 2010-10-11 05:40:14 <ArtForz> 400 has exactly the same SP and int perf per shader as 200 series
220 2010-10-11 05:41:40 <ArtForz> fermi teslas have 4x the DP perf/shader compared to 200, 4xx GPU DP performance was crippled back to equal 200
221 2010-10-11 05:42:29 <lfm> by 200 you mean 260-280 cuz the smaller 200s dont even do DP
222 2010-10-11 05:42:36 <ArtForz> yea
223 2010-10-11 05:43:27 <ArtForz> why design a GPU with that much DP throughput only to cripple it?
224 2010-10-11 05:44:54 <ArtForz> those disabled DP units are still sitting there wasting die space and power
225 2010-10-11 05:45:37 <lfm> cant they cut off the power to em even? you sure?
226 2010-10-11 05:46:57 <ArtForz> possibly
227 2010-10-11 05:47:14 <ArtForz> but then teslas should use a lot more power/clock compared to 4xx
228 2010-10-11 05:47:38 <ArtForz> and they dont seem to do that
229 2010-10-11 05:49:22 <ArtForz> so my guess is that fermi was designed for tesla and possibly quadro cards, with another chip for consumer GPUs
230 2010-10-11 05:49:23 <DiabloD3> [03:37:54] <ArtForz> nobody uses DP for games
231 2010-10-11 05:49:28 <DiabloD3> except that opengl reintroduced it.
232 2010-10-11 05:49:54 <ArtForz> yeah, but still nobody uses it
233 2010-10-11 05:50:12 <ArtForz> well, nearly nobody
234 2010-10-11 05:50:18 <lfm> autocad?
235 2010-10-11 05:50:33 <ArtForz> autocad? consumer GPU?
236 2010-10-11 05:50:46 <DiabloD3> autocad doesnt even need it
237 2010-10-11 05:51:06 <DiabloD3> autocad is a $2000 hello world compared to what some games do
238 2010-10-11 05:55:49 <ArtForz> anyways, if cypress has 1920SPs it should end up halfway between 5870 and 5970 in performance
239 2010-10-11 05:56:06 <ArtForz> probably closer to 5970 for games
240 2010-10-11 05:57:02 <ArtForz> errr
241 2010-10-11 05:57:21 <ArtForz> cayman
242 2010-10-11 05:58:31 <Keefe_> ;bcbuy $71.58
243 2010-10-11 05:59:01 <lfm> rotsa ruck, I havn't seen bitbot up here for days
244 2010-10-11 05:59:26 <ArtForz> btw, imo if antilles really ends up being dual barts = fail
245 2010-10-11 06:00:00 <noagendamarket> bitbot is down fo the count
246 2010-10-11 06:00:08 <Keefe_> was going to calc how much i'd lose to sell my mtgox-usd for btc and buy usd with bitcoin4cash
247 2010-10-11 06:02:44 <ArtForz> hrrm, 6xxx 4D shader arch should be a lot easier to optimize for
248 2010-10-11 06:03:30 <lfm> Keefe_, bitcoin4cash sez he doesnt have any US$ available atm
249 2010-10-11 06:03:45 <Keefe_> oh, true. cad then
250 2010-10-11 06:04:13 <Keefe_> better than the much lower rates for MB or LR at BCM
251 2010-10-11 06:04:18 <jgarzik> Keefe_: it's more work, but you can go btc -> lr/pgau -> usd
252 2010-10-11 06:05:18 <DiabloD3> ArtForz: what do you think about this whole mtgox thing
253 2010-10-11 06:06:54 <ArtForz> not too sure
254 2010-10-11 06:07:37 <noagendamarket> paypal screwed the pooch
255 2010-10-11 06:07:51 <ArtForz> imo mtgox style pretty much can't work with a payment provider with chargebacks
256 2010-10-11 06:08:09 <DiabloD3> yeah, but paypal didnt chargeback
257 2010-10-11 06:08:12 <DiabloD3> they just stole the money
258 2010-10-11 06:08:17 <noagendamarket> I suggested amazon  payments
259 2010-10-11 06:08:30 <ArtForz> no, they froze their account, because they had too many chargebacks
260 2010-10-11 06:08:47 <Keefe_> i'd lose about $10 of my $71.58
261 2010-10-11 06:09:23 <Keefe_> selling my mtg-usd at current asks then buying cad with b4c
262 2010-10-11 06:10:10 <Keefe_> i figure paypal will decide mtgox operated a currency exchange and will keep the money or worse
263 2010-10-11 06:10:24 <Keefe_> i hear their TOS pretty much allows them to do anything
264 2010-10-11 06:10:33 <Keefe_> including taking money from linked bank accounts
265 2010-10-11 06:11:15 <ArtForz> well, depends
266 2010-10-11 06:11:20 <jrabbit> how much does paypal have?
267 2010-10-11 06:11:36 <Keefe_> i don't think mtgox has said
268 2010-10-11 06:11:43 <ArtForz> their TOS may do, the question is if the law does
269 2010-10-11 06:11:53 <jrabbit> then its probably not too much
270 2010-10-11 06:12:05 <jrabbit> or they'd raise a stink about it.
271 2010-10-11 06:12:23 <Keefe_> have you heard of a successful suit against paypal?
272 2010-10-11 06:12:51 <ArtForz> no, probably because they seem to back down once lawyers get involved
273 2010-10-11 06:13:01 <Keefe_> ok, that works
274 2010-10-11 06:14:41 <ArtForz> CC processing with a real merchant account is a possiblility, but fees are gonna suck hard if you have a decent % of chargebacks
275 2010-10-11 06:18:00 <ArtForz> easiest way would probably be LR, GDP, PM or any other of the "all transactions are final" systems
276 2010-10-11 06:48:01 <doublec> Keefe_, you could transfer privately with someone for the bitcoins via paypal. I'm sure someone wants coins.
277 2010-10-11 06:59:37 <joe_1> where are the bitcoin-dev chat logs
278 2010-10-11 07:00:13 <joe_1> that BCBot keeps talking about
279 2010-10-11 07:03:06 <doublec> joe_1, http://stuff.caurea.org/irssi/freenode/%23bitcoin-dev/2010/
280 2010-10-11 07:07:10 <joe_1> thanks
281 2010-10-11 08:40:32 <UukGoblin> whoah, the price went up on mtgox nicely, hasn't it?
282 2010-10-11 08:40:47 <DiabloD3> UukGoblin: yes, but paypal froze mtgox's account
283 2010-10-11 08:41:05 <doublec> I wonder what effect that will have on the price
284 2010-10-11 08:41:09 <UukGoblin> oh
285 2010-10-11 08:41:15 <UukGoblin> so can't withdraw USD?
286 2010-10-11 08:41:20 <doublec> yes
287 2010-10-11 08:42:36 <MacRohard> that's another thing bitcoinmarket has going for it
288 2010-10-11 08:42:44 <MacRohard> no centralized paypal account to block
289 2010-10-11 08:42:58 <UukGoblin> price on the market went up a bit too though
290 2010-10-11 08:43:06 <UukGoblin> ;bcm
291 2010-10-11 08:43:43 <UukGoblin> but it's allowing no new registrations ;-)
292 2010-10-11 08:43:45 <MacRohard> there's enough money flowing through bitcoin to make it useful
293 2010-10-11 09:01:15 <doublec> Payment systems that allow reversals are certainly proving problematic
294 2010-10-11 09:01:39 <doublec> Great for the payer, really bad for the merchant.
295 2010-10-11 09:01:51 <UukGoblin> that was to be expected
296 2010-10-11 09:08:41 <MacRohard> it's not just reversals though. trading forex through paypal is against their T&Cs
297 2010-10-11 09:09:41 <bonsaikitten> eh, their T&C are f*ed anyway
298 2010-10-11 09:09:52 <bonsaikitten> "we can take your money whenever we want. Screw you."
299 2010-10-11 09:12:07 <UukGoblin> whose? paypal's?
300 2010-10-11 09:13:12 <doublec> yes
301 2010-10-11 09:16:44 <UukGoblin> :-/
302 2010-10-11 09:17:17 <UukGoblin> forex is weird too
303 2010-10-11 09:17:24 <UukGoblin> you buy a currency, but you don't really have it
304 2010-10-11 09:17:34 <UukGoblin> can't withdraw it or anything
305 2010-10-11 09:50:14 <MacRohard> UukGoblin, yeah. I'd like to setup a bucketshop trading firm on bitcoin
306 2010-10-11 09:50:22 <MacRohard> buy shares, forex, whatever for bitcoin settlement only
307 2010-10-11 09:50:43 <MacRohard> could hedge it back to the real market, or just bet against
308 2010-10-11 09:54:45 <MacRohard> seomthing like that could really be a killer application for bitcoin
309 2010-10-11 10:28:36 <UukGoblin> MacRohard, cool
310 2010-10-11 10:28:58 <UukGoblin> another killer app for btc would be a good virtual world like one of Second Life
311 2010-10-11 10:40:48 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: ONLY if you intend on letting me trade
312 2010-10-11 10:41:27 <DiabloD3> UukGoblin: btw, forex is just betting on commodities, where the commodities in question are currencies
313 2010-10-11 10:41:34 <DiabloD3> its not really strange when you consider it that way
314 2010-10-11 10:43:05 <UukGoblin> betting on them? I thought it was trading them
315 2010-10-11 10:43:31 <UukGoblin> yeah they say 'trading' on their website
316 2010-10-11 10:43:40 <DiabloD3> but you "trade" in stocks
317 2010-10-11 10:43:44 <DiabloD3> or "trade" in commodities
318 2010-10-11 10:44:08 <DiabloD3> yet unless you own the actual stock certs in your possession, or the same for the commodities, you're not really trading at all
319 2010-10-11 10:44:11 <DiabloD3> you're betting.
320 2010-10-11 10:46:02 <UukGoblin> exactly, that's what's weird
321 2010-10-11 10:46:32 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, nah.. there'd be no actual settlement possible
322 2010-10-11 10:46:35 <UukGoblin> they call it trading, where in fact you're only betting.
323 2010-10-11 10:46:44 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, just for bitcoins
324 2010-10-11 10:46:46 <DiabloD3> UukGoblin: yes, and welcome to wall street 101
325 2010-10-11 10:47:00 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: yes, but you have to go out and buy the bitcoins to settle with me
326 2010-10-11 10:47:07 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, right
327 2010-10-11 10:47:18 <UukGoblin> I'd like a platform that would allow easy /trading/ of currencies
328 2010-10-11 10:47:20 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, I'd hedge in the real market
329 2010-10-11 10:47:40 <UukGoblin> (preferably including bitcoin too)
330 2010-10-11 10:47:49 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, for at least some of it.. I might take on some cheap risk by betting against a lot of trades
331 2010-10-11 10:48:39 <MacRohard> the main problem I see is that to actually hedge stuff to the real market there would be a lot of dealing costs and most people would probably be investing small numbers of bitcoins
332 2010-10-11 10:48:54 <MacRohard> so i might need to charge bitcoin dealing fees that made it unattractive
333 2010-10-11 10:49:24 <MacRohard> but then again maybe not.. if they started investing real amounts of money it could work
334 2010-10-11 10:49:30 <jasondavies> hi people
335 2010-10-11 10:50:16 <jasondavies> if I want to sell digital goods in bitcoin, what kind of libraries are available?
336 2010-10-11 10:50:52 <MacRohard> bitcoind has a jsonrpc interface
337 2010-10-11 10:51:07 <MacRohard> it's pretty simple to use
338 2010-10-11 10:51:15 <MacRohard> you can also invoke it from the command line
339 2010-10-11 10:51:26 <UukGoblin> (which is even simpler)
340 2010-10-11 10:51:55 <jasondavies> ok, cool
341 2010-10-11 10:51:56 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: well, you COULD technically just follow my advice
342 2010-10-11 10:52:00 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, selling anything cool? :-]
343 2010-10-11 10:52:05 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: Ive been getting good at it
344 2010-10-11 10:52:11 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, I'm not sure you offered any
345 2010-10-11 10:52:34 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: as in, look at what I trade with btc, and then follow suit =P
346 2010-10-11 10:52:34 <jasondavies> so pretty much the only way is to use the C library i.e. there's no pure Python library or anything like that around?
347 2010-10-11 10:52:51 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, i'm not sure that you understand - that's basically what I would be doing
348 2010-10-11 10:53:00 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, you use a json-rpc library
349 2010-10-11 10:53:01 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: oh, not really sure yet, just playing with ideas at the moment :)
350 2010-10-11 10:53:08 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: I meant, as in, ignore everybody else =P
351 2010-10-11 10:53:13 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: right
352 2010-10-11 10:53:16 <UukGoblin> json-rpc has bindings in pretty much any language
353 2010-10-11 10:53:31 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, doesn't really matter to me
354 2010-10-11 10:53:41 <UukGoblin> alternatively, just run bitcoind with arguments and parse its output
355 2010-10-11 10:53:51 <UukGoblin> as a system command
356 2010-10-11 10:53:55 <MacRohard> some people win some people lose, i net the difference hedge.. take my own view and hopefully it works out :)
357 2010-10-11 10:54:07 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: just remember, if I buy 50btc worth of a stock, and it triples over the next few days, I expect to get 100btc back ;)
358 2010-10-11 10:54:36 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: ok, great
359 2010-10-11 10:54:47 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, yes. taht's exactly what you should expect
360 2010-10-11 10:54:54 <UukGoblin> DiabloD3, and if you buy 3M BTC worth of stock, and it triples, you expect to get 9M out of thin air? ;-)
361 2010-10-11 10:55:02 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, the problem though would be in keeping dealing costs down on such small transactions
362 2010-10-11 10:55:05 <DiabloD3> UukGoblin: well this is the problem
363 2010-10-11 10:55:17 <DiabloD3> UukGoblin: MacRohard needs to have that on hand, or be willing to buy more
364 2010-10-11 10:55:22 <MacRohard> well the customers also have exchange rate risk
365 2010-10-11 10:55:30 <MacRohard> if the price of bitcoins goes up they get less back
366 2010-10-11 10:55:36 <MacRohard> since their assets are priced in dollars
367 2010-10-11 10:55:38 <jasondavies> is anyone else based in the UK?
368 2010-10-11 10:55:45 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: yeah see, that makes it much difficult
369 2010-10-11 10:55:55 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: also, you dont have to do trades during the day
370 2010-10-11 10:55:59 <MacRohard> and actually that's another big problem because the volume on the bitcoin markets isn't that great yet
371 2010-10-11 10:56:09 <MacRohard> it wouldn't really support the kinds of investment flows i'd hope to generate
372 2010-10-11 10:56:12 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, if you can, a GBP exchange would be awesome!
373 2010-10-11 10:56:19 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: I _really_ would like the system to "execute" once a day
374 2010-10-11 10:56:34 <DiabloD3> when the market isnt in motion
375 2010-10-11 10:56:45 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: that would be cool, what would it involve?
376 2010-10-11 10:56:58 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: sounds like running a bank, not sure I have the right skills :)
377 2010-10-11 10:57:11 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, yeah, I'm not sure how the legal side of things works
378 2010-10-11 10:57:29 <UukGoblin> best would be to have a physical exchange office where you could exchange hard cash for bitcoins
379 2010-10-11 10:57:33 <jasondavies> anyone else here running an exchange?
380 2010-10-11 10:57:36 <UukGoblin> or just add it as a currency to existing offices
381 2010-10-11 10:58:21 <jasondavies> well, my first reaction would be to treat it the same as other digital currencies e.g. in-game ones where you basically exchange a currency for some kind of digital goods
382 2010-10-11 10:58:24 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, yeah, ppl who run the exchanges tend to show up here
383 2010-10-11 10:58:40 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, yeah.
384 2010-10-11 10:58:55 <jasondavies> so essentially you just sell the bitcoin for GBP, and pay taxes on the profit as per usual
385 2010-10-11 10:59:13 <jasondavies> I could do that I guess, would need to know more about what the legal side is though
386 2010-10-11 10:59:14 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, how would you like to pay taxes?
387 2010-10-11 10:59:36 <UukGoblin> paying taxes on btc trades is imho next to impossible
388 2010-10-11 11:00:06 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: btw, as a side note, you dont need the btc up front... only during the days I wish to withdraw part of my earnings.
389 2010-10-11 11:00:06 <jasondavies> well I guess there is no tax to pay if there is no profit
390 2010-10-11 11:00:18 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, of course
391 2010-10-11 11:01:07 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, i don't think you really grasp how it works. I get the BTC when you sell your position by using the profit to buy BTC to give to you
392 2010-10-11 11:01:27 <jasondavies> well, if someone pays me ???100 for BTC
393 2010-10-11 11:01:32 <jasondavies> oops, hit enter too soon
394 2010-10-11 11:01:32 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, you can hide profit very easily
395 2010-10-11 11:01:42 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: what Im saying is, I may _never_ withdraw a significant amount of money
396 2010-10-11 11:02:08 <DiabloD3> MacRohard: its just that, someday I'll be a millionare, and you'll have to pay up the balance in the far future.
397 2010-10-11 11:02:08 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, yea.. so money market accounts == my slush fund - i get it :)
398 2010-10-11 11:02:32 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, sure and that's fine
399 2010-10-11 11:03:12 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: well, if it falls under VAT legislation (I assume digital goods do) then you would have to pay VAT when you exchange GBP -> BTC
400 2010-10-11 11:03:28 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, I'll always have the bitcoins to give to you at whatever the market prices are for your assets, bitcoins and the bitcoin dollar exchange rate
401 2010-10-11 11:04:11 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, I just charge fees and use the money that nets out to generate an interest profit
402 2010-10-11 11:04:14 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, but afaik currency exchanges are free of VAT
403 2010-10-11 11:04:20 <DiabloD3> I will be kick of bitcoin land!
404 2010-10-11 11:04:42 <MacRohard> DiabloD3, it really doesn't matter to me if you make 1 million or lose 1 million
405 2010-10-11 11:04:54 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, besides, you may never have to exchange GBP -> BTC
406 2010-10-11 11:04:59 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: ah, ok
407 2010-10-11 11:05:08 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: was just trying to verify if that was the case
408 2010-10-11 11:05:45 <jasondavies> UukGoblin: surely that's the whole point of the exchange?
409 2010-10-11 11:05:56 <xelister> jasondavies: what if you sell your virtual stuff like a sofa in Secondlife home?
410 2010-10-11 11:05:59 <jasondavies> i.e. provide almost equal amounts of GBP -> BTC and BTC -> GBP
411 2010-10-11 11:06:08 <UukGoblin> oh, exchange, yes
412 2010-10-11 11:06:43 <UukGoblin> I've heard in EU generally currency exchange is VAT free, I assume it is in UK too
413 2010-10-11 11:06:49 <UukGoblin> but
414 2010-10-11 11:07:07 <UukGoblin> bitcoin can be named both 'currency' and 'commodity' ;-]
415 2010-10-11 11:08:52 <MacRohard> paying tax at the bitcoinwatch average exchange rate would probably be legal
416 2010-10-11 11:09:01 <jasondavies> well, if it was classed as a currency, then anyone running an exchange would be exposed to financial regulation (at least in the EU)
417 2010-10-11 11:09:05 <MacRohard> the real problem with operating legal exchange businesses is the anti-money laundering crap
418 2010-10-11 11:09:14 <jasondavies> yeah, exactly
419 2010-10-11 11:09:21 <xelister> UukGoblin: if you buy from another country then you are tax-free, tax-exepmt, no?
420 2010-10-11 11:09:28 <jasondavies> if it's a commodity, then maybe capital gains tax would apply
421 2010-10-11 11:09:41 <xelister> yes, the anti-money laundering.... THINK OF THE CHILDREN
422 2010-10-11 11:09:42 <MacRohard> i think commodities are still taxed
423 2010-10-11 11:09:44 <xelister> and of the terrorists
424 2010-10-11 11:09:49 <MacRohard> the only exception is maybe gold
425 2010-10-11 11:10:07 <xelister> obviously all this 2000 usd in market are so dengerous, they can kill over 9000 of innocents
426 2010-10-11 11:10:34 <jasondavies> BTC4GOLD!
427 2010-10-11 11:10:34 <MacRohard> it's quite possibly to comply with the money laundering stuff
428 2010-10-11 11:10:44 <MacRohard> but frankly I'm not suer I'd want my name on that business
429 2010-10-11 11:11:15 <MacRohard> just because of the trouble it could cause
430 2010-10-11 11:11:35 <MacRohard> even if you're operating in compliance they might give you a pretty hard time
431 2010-10-11 11:12:26 <jasondavies> yeah
432 2010-10-11 11:12:34 <jasondavies> sounds like a bit of a headache
433 2010-10-11 11:13:52 <xelister> you could be tradditionally accused of rape ;)
434 2010-10-11 11:14:49 <MacRohard> pedophilia ;)
435 2010-10-11 11:18:48 <jasondavies> so which site do you guys recommend for exchanges?
436 2010-10-11 11:19:29 <doublec> mtgox.com - unfortuntately it's a little difficult to deposit money into it
437 2010-10-11 11:19:43 <jasondavies> how come?
438 2010-10-11 11:19:59 <doublec> paypal froze their account due to them not liking people dealing with currencies
439 2010-10-11 11:20:13 <doublec> or people trying to use it for fraud
440 2010-10-11 11:20:15 <doublec> not sure which
441 2010-10-11 11:20:35 <jasondavies> I see
442 2010-10-11 11:20:43 <jasondavies> so you can only trade with other people at the moment
443 2010-10-11 11:21:02 <doublec> unfortunately if you run an exchange it's hard to find a commercial company to provide credit card deposits
444 2010-10-11 11:21:19 <doublec> if you already have coins then mtgox is fine
445 2010-10-11 11:21:26 <doublec> or wait till they get another provider
446 2010-10-11 11:21:37 <jasondavies> I have 0.5 coins from the faucet :)
447 2010-10-11 11:21:40 <doublec> buybitcoins.com has been good in the past for buying coins
448 2010-10-11 11:21:44 <doublec> with a credit card
449 2010-10-11 11:21:50 <doublec> I haven't used them recently however
450 2010-10-11 11:22:05 <jasondavies> yeah their security warning put me off :)
451 2010-10-11 11:22:38 <doublec> that's just because they use a certificate for the domain that is intended for their actual business site
452 2010-10-11 11:23:29 <doublec> it's the recent addition of 'what's your gelocation, IP address and email address' that I don't like so much
453 2010-10-11 11:25:33 <UukGoblin> there's bitcoin market, which has a problem with newcomers (I'm sure you could work it around if you speak nicely to the admin though)
454 2010-10-11 11:25:43 <UukGoblin> and bitcoinexchange.com which afaik still works? (but it's euro-based)
455 2010-10-11 11:27:15 <doublec> or do a private deal with someone
456 2010-10-11 11:27:45 <doublec> there's also the 'mail me cash anonymously' services for coins
457 2010-10-11 11:27:51 <doublec> bitcoin4cash.com and bitcoin2cash.com
458 2010-10-11 11:33:36 <UukGoblin> hmm, I'm willing to send some BTC if anyone likes
459 2010-10-11 11:33:49 <UukGoblin> s/send/sell/
460 2010-10-11 11:33:50 <xelister> yeah its a wonder why they didnt fabricate allegations about that TOR developer about pedo, only "just" about "normal" rape
461 2010-10-11 11:34:31 <xelister> erm wait, that Wikileaks guy.  TOR devel was only questioned
462 2010-10-11 11:35:15 <MacRohard> who knows. wikileaks is shady as hell and probably run by the cia
463 2010-10-11 11:35:36 <xelister> doubt it
464 2010-10-11 11:37:00 <doublec> UukGoblin, what rate would you sell at?
465 2010-10-11 11:37:17 <UukGoblin> doublec, well, hard to say these days...
466 2010-10-11 11:37:48 <UukGoblin> 1 BTC for $0.08? :-]
467 2010-10-11 11:38:05 <bonsaikitten> xelister: well, at least he didn't shoot himself in the head from behind with a shotgun, then tie himself to a tree
468 2010-10-11 11:38:07 <bonsaikitten> :D
469 2010-10-11 11:38:58 <UukGoblin> doublec, and I have about 3k BTC I wish to sell
470 2010-10-11 11:39:14 <doublec> UukGoblin, would you 1,000 coins at that?
471 2010-10-11 11:39:20 <UukGoblin> doublec, yup
472 2010-10-11 11:39:25 <doublec> UukGoblin, via paypal or neteller or some other way?
473 2010-10-11 11:39:42 <UukGoblin> paypal or bank transfer
474 2010-10-11 11:39:59 <UukGoblin> paypal's probably easiest
475 2010-10-11 11:40:01 <doublec> paypal's good - I'm in NZ so bank transfer is a bit of ahassle
476 2010-10-11 11:40:06 <UukGoblin> ok
477 2010-10-11 11:40:08 <doublec> can you /msg me your email?
478 2010-10-11 11:40:13 <doublec> paypal email that is
479 2010-10-11 11:41:53 <jasondavies> regarding the wallet, can it be copied and used on multiple machines simultaneously?
480 2010-10-11 11:42:50 <UukGoblin> jasondavies, not very reliably
481 2010-10-11 11:43:04 <UukGoblin> read-only, yes
482 2010-10-11 11:43:09 <UukGoblin> if you make any transactions, no
483 2010-10-11 11:45:29 <jasondavies> why not?
484 2010-10-11 11:46:56 <jasondavies> nm, found a relevant forum topic :)
485 2010-10-11 11:47:12 <xelister> bonsaikitten: I suppose "democracy" is trying to be at least less obvious in its crimes then say China.  You got nobel - ok fu we arrest ur wife lol
486 2010-10-11 11:47:29 <bonsaikitten> xelister: let's invade Norway
487 2010-10-11 11:47:39 <xelister> why norway?
488 2010-10-11 11:48:12 <jasondavies> they award the nobel prizes
489 2010-10-11 11:48:56 <bonsaikitten> exactly
490 2010-10-11 11:50:01 <xelister> well china seems to attack own citizen but not outside... above seems like job for usa
491 2010-10-11 11:50:10 <xelister> *but not far way*
492 2010-10-11 11:52:56 <UukGoblin> doublec, thanks for the trade :-)
493 2010-10-11 11:52:59 <UukGoblin> BTC on their way
494 2010-10-11 11:53:16 <doublec> Thanks UukGoblin, received on my end. Good trade! :)
495 2010-10-11 11:55:31 <UukGoblin> ;estimate
496 2010-10-11 11:55:39 <UukGoblin> the bot is dead
497 2010-10-11 11:57:09 <doublec> long live the bot
498 2010-10-11 12:04:12 <doublec> block confirmed with the btc's you sent me, thanks UukGoblin
499 2010-10-11 12:04:23 <UukGoblin> o/
500 2010-10-11 12:04:40 <doublec> bitcoins are definitely an easy method of electronic trades
501 2010-10-11 12:04:54 <UukGoblin> the confirmation time is a bit long tbh
502 2010-10-11 12:04:58 <UukGoblin> but I guess it's sensible
503 2010-10-11 12:05:18 <doublec> yes, for something like a shopping site a 10 minute wait could be problematic
504 2010-10-11 12:05:19 <UukGoblin> fair price to pay for pseudonymity and decentralization
505 2010-10-11 12:05:47 <UukGoblin> I think it's acceptable
506 2010-10-11 12:05:51 <doublec> For something I'm working on I'm taking all the details from the customer and when the payment gets the confirmation it triggers backend processing and sends an email
507 2010-10-11 12:05:58 <edcba> what was the concern of reducing that time btw ?
508 2010-10-11 12:06:00 <UukGoblin> it's not like most online shops will pick your order up within 1 hour anyway
509 2010-10-11 12:06:06 <doublec> exactly
510 2010-10-11 12:06:36 <UukGoblin> edcba, amount of blocks generated, translates into disk space required as well as bandwidth costs
511 2010-10-11 12:06:55 <UukGoblin> edcba, also reduces race conditions
512 2010-10-11 12:07:06 <edcba> disk space seems not an issue i think
513 2010-10-11 12:07:20 <doublec> For things like online poker people are used to waiting for a while before the funds are actually available or withdrawn
514 2010-10-11 12:07:27 <doublec> so people are conditioned to it I think
515 2010-10-11 12:07:41 <UukGoblin> hmm, speaking of online poker...
516 2010-10-11 12:07:46 <UukGoblin> anyone wants a game? :-]
517 2010-10-11 12:08:15 <doublec> I'd play if there was a bitcoin site that did it :)
518 2010-10-11 12:08:19 <UukGoblin> betco.in
519 2010-10-11 12:08:44 <UukGoblin> still a bit buggy, but pretty playable (press f5 to refresh if it gets stuck)
520 2010-10-11 12:08:48 <doublec> oh wow, nice
521 2010-10-11 12:13:17 <doublec> I'll give 0.05/0.10 no limit a go if anyone's keen
522 2010-10-11 12:13:58 <UukGoblin> how about 0.02/0.04 first? :-]
523 2010-10-11 12:14:07 <doublec> yep sounds good
524 2010-10-11 12:14:16 <doublec> how many confirmations does it wait for deposit?
525 2010-10-11 12:14:35 <UukGoblin> 1 IIRC
526 2010-10-11 12:14:42 <doublec> ok, shouldn't be long then
527 2010-10-11 12:15:23 <doublec> open source too, nice
528 2010-10-11 12:16:05 <UukGoblin> yeah, pavel's used some GPLed engines or something, so didn't have much choice
529 2010-10-11 12:18:24 <UukGoblin> is it just me, or has block generation become slower?
530 2010-10-11 12:19:34 <doublec> It seems that way - I'm not sure if it's because I've been actually watching and waiting for blocks :)
531 2010-10-11 12:20:01 <UukGoblin> yeah, it's always like that
532 2010-10-11 12:20:07 <UukGoblin> and then 3 come out within 2 minutes
533 2010-10-11 12:24:25 <doublec> ok, I'm in
534 2010-10-11 12:25:03 <UukGoblin> just checked
535 2010-10-11 12:25:09 <UukGoblin> 169 blocks generated in the last 24 hours
536 2010-10-11 12:25:12 <UukGoblin> difficulty will drop!
537 2010-10-11 12:25:31 <doublec> a bunch of gpu miners might have dropped out since last time
538 2010-10-11 12:26:03 <UukGoblin> I know I've dropped out since the last increase ;-]
539 2010-10-11 12:31:20 <UukGoblin> damn
540 2010-10-11 12:31:24 <UukGoblin> you're not noob at this! ;-)
541 2010-10-11 12:31:33 <doublec> hehe :)
542 2010-10-11 12:37:33 <UukGoblin> meh, will have to go I guess
543 2010-10-11 12:37:40 <doublec> no worries
544 2010-10-11 12:37:48 <UukGoblin> I might be back in a few hours though
545 2010-10-11 12:38:45 <doublec> I better get some sleep anyway - I'm keen to play another time though
546 2010-10-11 12:38:54 <UukGoblin> cool
547 2010-10-11 12:39:03 <UukGoblin> I hang around on IRC
548 2010-10-11 12:39:10 <doublec> yep, me too
549 2010-10-11 12:39:13 <UukGoblin> but I'm in the UK timezone, +0100
550 2010-10-11 12:39:24 <doublec> I'm 12 hours the other was NZ timezone
551 2010-10-11 12:39:32 <UukGoblin> :-)
552 2010-10-11 12:39:42 <UukGoblin> yeah, better get some sleep then ;-]
553 2010-10-11 12:39:50 <doublec> hehe, thanks for the trade and the game.
554 2010-10-11 12:40:00 <UukGoblin> thanks indeed
555 2010-10-11 12:50:12 <Netsniper> why does it take so long to get confirmation sometimes?
556 2010-10-11 12:50:22 <Netsniper> seems like I waited near 15 minutes
557 2010-10-11 12:51:04 <edcba> you need to wait next block to be generated
558 2010-10-11 12:51:26 <Netsniper> ah
559 2010-10-11 12:51:36 <Netsniper> just bad timing i suppose
560 2010-10-11 12:51:44 <edcba> in fact the next block acknowledging that transaction...
561 2010-10-11 12:51:59 <UukGoblin> well
562 2010-10-11 12:52:02 <UukGoblin> the network has shrunk
563 2010-10-11 12:52:08 <UukGoblin> and difficulty hasn't readjusted yet
564 2010-10-11 12:53:40 <UukGoblin> ah no, it hasn't, ignore me
565 2010-10-11 12:54:09 <UukGoblin> 169 > 144
566 2010-10-11 12:54:18 <UukGoblin> so yeah, bad luck
567 2010-10-11 12:58:36 <UukGoblin> Netsniper, the rule of the thumb is, when you're desperately waiting for a confirmation, it'll just hang around forever
568 2010-10-11 12:58:48 <Netsniper> for sure
569 2010-10-11 12:59:06 <UukGoblin> at all other times it's ~1 block / 10 minutes ;-]
570 2010-10-11 12:59:44 <Netsniper> i've been lucky so far, all trades were basicly instant
571 2010-10-11 12:59:52 <Netsniper> save for the last one
572 2010-10-11 13:00:34 <Netsniper> my first trade has 34746 confirmations
573 2010-10-11 15:39:23 <Netsniper> paypal suspended mtgox
574 2010-10-11 15:39:26 <Netsniper> thats crappy
575 2010-10-11 15:39:57 <MartinW> Netsniper, not for me.
576 2010-10-11 15:40:05 <Netsniper> :)
577 2010-10-11 15:40:09 <MartinW> I managed to make a decent profit when the price for bitcoins spiked.
578 2010-10-11 15:40:19 <MartinW> Though it remains to be seen if I can get it out. :-/
579 2010-10-11 15:41:55 <Netsniper> yeah, i dumped all my btc
580 2010-10-11 16:36:47 <keith4> why did paypal suspend mtgox?
581 2010-10-11 16:45:47 <theymos> New tools added to theymos.ath.cx. Tell me if you find any bugs. http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/addresstohash http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/hashtoaddress http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/checkaddress http://theymos.ath.cx:64150/q/hashpubkey
582 2010-10-11 17:08:16 <gavinandresen> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1434.0  : ssl JSON-RPC connections
583 2010-10-11 17:13:19 <dsg> gavinandresen: Awesome, thanks
584 2010-10-11 17:16:02 <dsg> Would be good to be able to do SSL authentication instead of password
585 2010-10-11 17:17:14 <Teppy1> So with MtGox's troubles... Is there any way that someone new to Bitcoins can get them quickly with a credit card, or PayPal?
586 2010-10-11 17:17:52 <Teppy1> Some ATITD players want to try Dragon's Tale, but I don't know where to send them to get Bitcoins.
587 2010-10-11 17:18:27 <MartinW> Teppy1, I think bitcoinexchange might be good.
588 2010-10-11 17:18:35 <MartinW> You can pay with an sms.
589 2010-10-11 17:18:39 <MartinW> Though I haven't used it personally.
590 2010-10-11 17:18:54 <dsg> That's going to be very expensive
591 2010-10-11 17:19:02 <Teppy1> Yeah, 50% fee isn't going to fly.
592 2010-10-11 17:19:03 <dsg> (sms/phone payments)
593 2010-10-11 17:19:51 <MartinW> Loan them some?
594 2010-10-11 17:20:14 <MartinW> Or sell them some of your personal ones?
595 2010-10-11 17:20:37 <Teppy1> I have to be very careful about being in that business myself, because then I'd be violating gambling laws.
596 2010-10-11 17:21:04 <MartinW> Your violating gambling laws by exchange a minor amount of currency for another?
597 2010-10-11 17:21:30 <Teppy1> When a credit card is involved, yes.
598 2010-10-11 17:21:43 <Teppy1> "Extending credit for gambling debts"
599 2010-10-11 17:21:53 <MartinW> Oh, that sucks.
600 2010-10-11 17:22:00 <MartinW> Move your game to Swaziland?
601 2010-10-11 17:22:09 <Teppy1> In fact, that's the only federal law, and it defines every sort of credit for wager type activity.
602 2010-10-11 17:22:50 <Teppy1> Gambling itself isn't against federal law, but moving money by wire, accepting checks over state lines, every permutation they could think of - that's what's illegal.
603 2010-10-11 17:23:05 <Teppy1> And it's why Bitcoins are so perfect.
604 2010-10-11 17:23:21 <Teppy1> However, I can't be involved with where they get the BTC from.
605 2010-10-11 17:24:42 <Teppy1> I also need to figure out a way to get the word out to Bitcoin folk. ATITD players showed up to the last session, but zero people from the Bitcoin forums.
606 2010-10-11 17:24:46 <MartinW> What's the minimum bet at Dragon's Tale?
607 2010-10-11 17:24:52 <Teppy1> 1
608 2010-10-11 17:25:12 <MartinW> Ah, bitcoin faucet won't do then.
609 2010-10-11 17:25:46 <MartinW> Do comps fall against the gambling law?
610 2010-10-11 17:25:51 <Teppy1> No
611 2010-10-11 17:26:14 <MartinW> Maybe give them some of them? They should lose them again soon enough.
612 2010-10-11 17:26:46 <Teppy1> The goal isn't to release a free game.
613 2010-10-11 17:27:04 <MartinW> Yeah, but giving a free trail isn't going to hurt?
614 2010-10-11 17:27:06 <Teppy1> I'm trying to establish an actual Bitcoin based business.
615 2010-10-11 17:27:07 <cdecker> !stats
616 2010-10-11 17:27:28 <MartinW> Most casinos online start you out with free chips.
617 2010-10-11 17:27:35 <MartinW> *trial
618 2010-10-11 17:27:55 <Teppy1> No they don't. In fact, no online casino starts you off with free chips - they just advertise as if they do.
619 2010-10-11 17:28:49 <Teppy1> The fine print in all of them is identical: You get, say, 5x your initial deposit, but you must gamble 50x your initial deposit before you're allowed to withdraw any money...
620 2010-10-11 17:29:20 <Teppy1> And games that have average payoffs less than (whatever) don't count toward that 50x amount.
621 2010-10-11 17:29:38 <Teppy1> (Er, more than (whatever))
622 2010-10-11 17:29:50 <MartinW> The large print giveth, the fine print taketh away. ;-)
623 2010-10-11 17:31:58 <MartinW> Hey, Mt. Gox seems to have stabilized.
624 2010-10-11 17:32:07 <MartinW> It's hovering around 0.1.
625 2010-10-11 17:32:58 <Teppy1> I'm going to call the credit card gateway that eGenesis uses - maybe they know a solution to MtGox's chargeback problem.
626 2010-10-11 17:33:57 <Teppy1> 0.1 will be a psychological barrier for a bit.
627 2010-10-11 17:34:25 <MartinW> Going beneath it you mean?
628 2010-10-11 17:34:34 <LobsterMan> why is the btc value going up recently?
629 2010-10-11 17:34:47 <MartinW> LobsterMan, panic selling of dollars.
630 2010-10-11 17:34:55 <MartinW> At Mt. Gox.
631 2010-10-11 17:35:00 <LobsterMan> what do you mean?
632 2010-10-11 17:35:09 <MartinW> It doesn't allow cashing out in dollars anymore.
633 2010-10-11 17:35:16 <LobsterMan> oh...
634 2010-10-11 17:35:19 <MartinW> So everyone at Mt. Gox is trading their dollars for bitcoins, which they can cash out.
635 2010-10-11 17:35:36 <LobsterMan> what can you redeem now if not usd?
636 2010-10-11 17:35:38 <kencausey> MartinW: I think you have the order wrong, it went up before cashing out was blocked
637 2010-10-11 17:35:39 <MartinW> And trying to do so before everyone else doing so has spiked the price through the roof.
638 2010-10-11 17:35:42 <MartinW> Bitcoins.
639 2010-10-11 17:35:51 <MartinW> kencausey, ah.
640 2010-10-11 17:35:54 <kencausey> I don't think it is that simple
641 2010-10-11 17:36:15 <dsg> LobsterMan: mtgox's paypal account was frozen. He's working on other payment methods.
642 2010-10-11 17:36:15 <kencausey> It seems to be a bit of a perfect storm
643 2010-10-11 17:36:26 <LobsterMan> how much was in the account?
644 2010-10-11 17:36:29 <kencausey> Some fraud mixed with a bit of publicity and who knows what
645 2010-10-11 17:36:33 <LobsterMan> and why would paypal do that :|
646 2010-10-11 17:36:42 <kencausey> lots of chargebacks from fraudsters
647 2010-10-11 17:36:43 <dsg> LobsterMan: Dunno. But he said he didn't keep much there.
648 2010-10-11 17:37:34 <LobsterMan> so wait what exactly happened? you cannot convert $$$-->btc anymore or is it the other way around?
649 2010-10-11 17:38:25 <dsg> LobsterMan: The mtgox.com exchange (the most popular one) can't accept or give out USD. You can buy from other sources like bitcoinmarket.com
650 2010-10-11 17:38:43 <dsg> But it's not as convenient/secure
651 2010-10-11 17:39:27 <LobsterMan> if you can't get money from bitcoins anymore, who is conducting these transations that keep getting posted in the channel?
652 2010-10-11 17:39:36 <kencausey> mtgox is looking into other USD transfer services and indicated he didn't think it would be long before he had one setup
653 2010-10-11 17:39:56 <kencausey> LobsterMan: There is lots of money already in accounts, do you know how mtgox works?
654 2010-10-11 17:40:06 <dsg> LobsterMan: You can still trade  both ways on mtgox, you just can't take your money out in USD or put new USD in
655 2010-10-11 17:40:08 <kencausey> There is no need to transfer in USD fore ach transaction
656 2010-10-11 17:40:48 <kencausey> I have been trading for a couple of months on money I transferred in over two months ago, I've only had a total of 2 paypal transactions with mtgox since July.
657 2010-10-11 17:41:33 <LobsterMan> ah i see, so you can keep trading but not cash out at present...
658 2010-10-11 17:41:42 <kencausey> right
659 2010-10-11 17:41:56 <kencausey> cash out in USD that is, you can cash out in BTC (I think)
660 2010-10-11 17:42:37 <MartinW> kencausey, made any profit?
661 2010-10-11 17:43:55 <kencausey> Yes, quite a bit at first then I kept ending up on the wrong side of curves and had to wait days and weeks between trades.
662 2010-10-11 17:44:44 <MartinW> I've just started in the trading thing.
663 2010-10-11 17:45:06 <MartinW> I made quite a profit on the Mt. Gox thing, but I might lose it all if Mt. Gox goes bankrupt.
664 2010-10-11 17:46:21 <LobsterMan> how much is "quite a bit"?
665 2010-10-11 17:48:12 <MartinW> LobsterMan, 2.17 dollars on 4.50.
666 2010-10-11 17:48:29 <MartinW> But I imagine it'd scale reasonably linearly.
667 2010-10-11 17:48:41 <MartinW> Wait, no.
668 2010-10-11 17:48:45 <MartinW> Added up wrong.
669 2010-10-11 17:48:48 <LobsterMan> that's 100%?
670 2010-10-11 17:48:54 <LobsterMan> roughly?
671 2010-10-11 17:48:57 <MartinW> 1.77.
672 2010-10-11 17:49:13 <MartinW> LobsterMan, I made a arithmetic error.
673 2010-10-11 17:50:00 <MartinW> *an
674 2010-10-11 18:53:29 <Teppy1> Just talked to my credit card gateway about the chargeback problem...
675 2010-10-11 18:54:21 <Teppy1> There's a service called MoneyGram that lets you send money from a credit card to another location where someone can pick up cash.
676 2010-10-11 18:54:58 <Teppy1> So it's irrevocable. The fees are high, but not crazy-high like bitcoinexchange
677 2010-10-11 18:56:22 <Teppy1> When funding from a credit card, the fees are $60 for an $800 transfer, and it takes 10 minutes.
678 2010-10-11 18:56:45 <Teppy1> When funding from a bank account, the fees are $25 for an $800 transfer and it takes 3 days.
679 2010-10-11 18:57:19 <DiabloD3> Teppy1: you forgot one
680 2010-10-11 18:57:37 <DiabloD3> on a credit card, you're also charged by the issuer
681 2010-10-11 18:57:45 <DiabloD3> so thats a huge fee too
682 2010-10-11 18:57:55 <chaord> Teppy1: how do they guarantee that it is irrevocable? do you sign a contract waving your right to a charge back?
683 2010-10-11 18:58:36 <Teppy1> Well, the person at the other end has gotten the physical cash, so it would be pretty hard to get it back.
684 2010-10-11 18:58:56 <chaord> very true ;)
685 2010-10-11 18:59:04 <Teppy1> I assume the credit card fees are built in to that $60 fee.
686 2010-10-11 18:59:24 <DiabloD3> moneygram is a big competitor to western union, btw
687 2010-10-11 18:59:24 <Teppy1> The $25 fee is in line with what a bank charges for a wire transfer.
688 2010-10-11 18:59:36 <DiabloD3> and no, they're not built into that fee.
689 2010-10-11 19:00:10 <Teppy1> How much more? Another 2%?
690 2010-10-11 19:00:23 <DiabloD3> read the agreement that came with your credit card
691 2010-10-11 19:00:48 <Teppy1> Remember, it's Moneygram that's making the credit card charge.
692 2010-10-11 19:00:49 <DiabloD3> its the same fee you're charged to get cash out of an ATM
693 2010-10-11 19:00:54 <DiabloD3> Teppy1: you misunderstood
694 2010-10-11 19:01:00 <DiabloD3> your issuer KNOWS its monneygram
695 2010-10-11 19:01:00 <Teppy1> (IOW< they're the merchant)
696 2010-10-11 19:01:08 <DiabloD3> thus charges you more
697 2010-10-11 19:01:20 <Teppy1> Ah, ok.
698 2010-10-11 19:01:27 <DiabloD3> one of my cards has an absurd 5% + $15 min
699 2010-10-11 19:01:36 <DiabloD3> so if I got a dollar out of an ATM, they'd charge me $15.
700 2010-10-11 19:02:06 <DiabloD3> and yes, they'd treat moneygram just like any other cash transaction
701 2010-10-11 19:09:06 <Teppy1> So escrow would work - an escrow agent builds up trust that he will release the $ and the BTC when both arrive.
702 2010-10-11 19:11:47 <Teppy1> Bitcoin4cash looks good. If only a few people were trusted to trade on the markets - to not do chargebacks - that's not so bad.
703 2010-10-11 19:19:40 <MartinW> Aargh. How do you get past that location screen in BuyBitCoins.com?
704 2010-10-11 19:21:14 <theymos> I wouldn't buy from BuyBitcoins.com. The owner has no reputation on the forum.
705 2010-10-11 19:21:41 <MartinW> Ah, thanks.
706 2010-10-11 19:22:23 <theymos> There have been sucessful BuyBitcoins trades, but I don't trust them.
707 2010-10-11 19:26:58 <theymos> Knightmb was working with big players to create some sort of Bitcoin prepaid card. Anyone hear anything new about that? Now'd be a nice time for it.
708 2010-10-11 19:28:47 <Teppy1> bitcoinmarket doesn't actually initiate any PayPal charges, so that model may work well: The chargebacks are all spread around - they can't close everyone's PayPal account.
709 2010-10-11 19:29:07 <Teppy1> It's essentially a matchmaking service.
710 2010-10-11 19:29:37 <DiabloD3> yes they CAN close everyone's account
711 2010-10-11 19:30:05 <Teppy1> By scanning for the word "bitcoin" in payment messages?
712 2010-10-11 19:30:19 <DiabloD3> who knows
713 2010-10-11 19:30:45 <DiabloD3> but they often close accounts because they closed an account that account did business with
714 2010-10-11 19:30:59 <Teppy1> I just got a message from bitcoinmarket for some BTC I offered a while back - someone bought 100 BTC from me for PayPal...
715 2010-10-11 19:31:38 <Teppy1> I sent a note to the person saying "Hey, just wanted to make sure you actually bought these BTC, because I got the money from PayPal."
716 2010-10-11 19:32:22 <Teppy1> In 2 days I haven't heard back, so I'm wary of sending them. DWDollar said it's fine to take up to 10 days to confirm, and that he can extend that time in some cases.
717 2010-10-11 19:33:30 <theymos> It automatically confirms in 10 days. It's not unreasonable to take the entire time.
718 2010-10-11 19:34:12 <Teppy1> Ok
719 2010-10-11 19:35:11 <Teppy1> Anyway, if there were essentially 10000 "exchanges" where each one did a few trades, that's a really hard thing for PP to police.
720 2010-10-11 19:38:23 <theymos> Once they find an active trader, they'll be able to eliminate all reasonably-active traders by following the "web of transactions". They haven't done this for ExchangeZone, though, so I doubt they care enough.
721 2010-10-11 19:42:00 <DiabloD3> exchangezone hasnt helped fund terrorism
722 2010-10-11 21:03:00 <doublec> MartinW, the form is broken on buybitcoins.com. You need to use the geolocation request it does if your browser supports it to get past it.
723 2010-10-11 21:17:07 <echelon> is there a way to add a listener using bitcoin api?
724 2010-10-11 21:17:44 <echelon> so i don't have to query bitcoin every few minutes?
725 2010-10-11 21:19:18 <doublec> echelon, there'
726 2010-10-11 21:19:26 <echelon> what?
727 2010-10-11 21:19:27 <doublec> echelon, there's a patch called 'monitorreceived' for that
728 2010-10-11 21:19:36 <echelon> ah
729 2010-10-11 21:19:38 <echelon> thanks
730 2010-10-11 21:20:05 <doublec> echelon, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1319.0
731 2010-10-11 21:20:08 <doublec> it works well
732 2010-10-11 21:20:21 <echelon> nice :)
733 2010-10-11 21:21:29 <echelon> bookmarked