1 2010-10-15 00:10:20 <Maccer> BitCoin seems like an interesting concept. I actually found it on some website promoting agorism.
  2 2010-10-15 00:29:35 <kencausey> Maccer: You can get started easily enough, download, install and run the program and you have a chance to generate some free (barring electricity costs) BTC.  Or if you have more money than time you can buy some at various sources.
  3 2010-10-15 00:31:01 <Maccer> kencausey: The market isn't that appealing to me at the moment, but I might give it a shot once I feel like bothering with it. :P And just curious, are you in the range of anarcho-beliefs?
  4 2010-10-15 00:38:43 <dwdollar> Maccer:  I think it's all types here.
  5 2010-10-15 00:40:03 <dwdollar> But there is more libertarian type people than anything else.
  6 2010-10-15 00:40:09 <dwdollar> I think
  7 2010-10-15 00:40:19 <Maccer> dwdollar: I'm generally an 'anarchist without adjectives', but ideally, I like market anarchism the most.
  8 2010-10-15 00:40:36 <dwdollar> I don't really know what I am.
  9 2010-10-15 00:40:42 <dwdollar> I mostly hate government though.
 10 2010-10-15 00:41:09 <Netsniper> "I don't hate the police, I just seem to feel better when they're not around."
 11 2010-10-15 00:41:16 <Maccer> Good thing you're not #politics
 12 2010-10-15 00:41:18 <Netsniper> -Charles Bukowski
 13 2010-10-15 00:41:19 <Maccer> *not on
 14 2010-10-15 00:41:33 <Maccer> #politics is filled with statists... like to the neck. :|
 15 2010-10-15 00:42:16 <Netsniper> thats like saying the chinese ayce buffet is full of fat people
 16 2010-10-15 00:42:20 <thrashaholic> so is the world
 17 2010-10-15 00:42:29 <Netsniper> really? it is?
 18 2010-10-15 00:42:35 <Netsniper> i never noticed! :)
 19 2010-10-15 00:43:01 <Maccer> trashaholic, you have a point, but this is the internet! Oh wait...
 20 2010-10-15 00:43:17 <thrashaholic> the internet used to not be full of statists until we let the plebs on it
 21 2010-10-15 00:43:32 <thrashaholic> back in the day, you'd more often than not find A's and L's
 22 2010-10-15 00:43:48 <thrashaholic> back when the average IQ of the internet was well above 100
 23 2010-10-15 00:44:38 <thrashaholic> im an ancap/agorist fwiw
 24 2010-10-15 00:45:38 <Maccer> I feel at home when I'm at #bitcon-dev now. :)
 25 2010-10-15 00:45:57 <Maccer> But nobody at my house is close to an anti-statist lol.
 26 2010-10-15 00:48:22 <thrashaholic> you should work on that
 27 2010-10-15 00:53:20 <kencausey> Maccer: I have some sympathy for anarcho-capitalsm.
 28 2010-10-15 01:09:42 <Kiba> hey hey hey
 29 2010-10-15 01:42:04 <jgarzik> 'getwork' seems like a worthy addition to upstream
 30 2010-10-15 01:43:23 <FreeMoney> +1 ancap/agorist
 31 2010-10-15 01:44:27 <FreeMoney> and by ancap I mean anarchist who thinks markets and prices would simply emerge all over instead of communes and rainbows
 32 2010-10-15 01:55:05 <Maccer> FreeMoney: I agree.
 33 2010-10-15 01:56:06 <Maccer> A lot of anti-statists suggest small communes or societies... which ultimately function as a state would, with harsher dispute resolution.
 34 2010-10-15 02:08:56 <Kiba> Maccer: Who need dispute resolution by humans when you can have computers compute the reputation of X?
 35 2010-10-15 02:09:38 <Kiba> Bitcoins does not have police and judges, but the reputation of men.
 36 2010-10-15 02:11:09 <Kiba> Every man in the bitcoin society is a self made man; because each man has to carry his reputation on his bitcoins, with no assurance of safety but the words of others.
 37 2010-10-15 02:40:48 <noagendamarket> agorism ftw
 38 2010-10-15 02:44:13 <Kiba> noagendamarket: I wish there was an easy way to earn money by using my computer's spare CPU
 39 2010-10-15 02:44:17 <Kiba> I KNOW!
 40 2010-10-15 02:44:31 <Kiba> I believe there is a company that pay you for spare CPU
 41 2010-10-15 02:44:38 <Kiba> I would act as intermediary
 42 2010-10-15 02:44:49 <Kiba> earning money from the company and then buying bitcoins to compensate my worker
 43 2010-10-15 02:45:19 <noagendamarket> Kiba there are distributed computing programs that pay
 44 2010-10-15 02:46:04 <Kiba> noagendamarket: well, that's true
 45 2010-10-15 02:46:15 <Kiba> I know that
 46 2010-10-15 02:46:22 <Kiba> because I said it
 47 2010-10-15 02:47:24 <noagendamarket> I wonder how long they take to pay out?
 48 2010-10-15 02:49:39 <noagendamarket> kiba  http://www.gomezpeerzone.com/
 49 2010-10-15 02:51:12 <nanotube> <Kiba> noagendamarket: I wish there was an easy way to earn money by using my computer's spare CPU <<-- how about running a bitcoin node? :)
 50 2010-10-15 02:51:28 <Kiba> nanotube: other than mining bitcoins?
 51 2010-10-15 02:51:46 <nanotube> heh you wanted easy :)
 52 2010-10-15 02:52:13 <doublec> I'll give you 10 bitcoins for your spare CPU if you can post it to me...
 53 2010-10-15 02:52:20 <noagendamarket> lol
 54 2010-10-15 02:52:59 <nanotube> hehe
 55 2010-10-15 02:53:14 <nanotube> and i'll take your remaining spare motherboard - cuz what are you gonna do with it without a cpu? :)
 56 2010-10-15 02:53:28 <doublec> who wants the RAM?
 57 2010-10-15 02:54:01 <nanotube> oh all right, i'll throw in another 10 btc for the ram. ;)
 58 2010-10-15 02:54:38 <doublec> hehe
 59 2010-10-15 02:57:16 <noagendamarket> you could probably melt your mobo down  for the gold
 60 2010-10-15 03:00:25 <Kiba> cpu cycles usage..hmm
 61 2010-10-15 03:41:22 <mesees> hello all
 62 2010-10-15 03:42:25 <thrashaholic> lol cute name
 63 2010-10-15 03:42:41 <thrashaholic> oh wait, it would be meeses if it was what i thought
 64 2010-10-15 03:42:43 <thrashaholic> nm! :P
 65 2010-10-15 03:44:07 <mesees> huh?
 66 2010-10-15 03:44:16 <thrashaholic> heh nothing
 67 2010-10-15 03:44:24 <mesees> ok - good talk
 68 2010-10-15 03:44:30 <thrashaholic> though your nick was a play on mises
 69 2010-10-15 03:44:37 <thrashaholic> thought*
 70 2010-10-15 03:44:54 <mesees> how do you know its not?
 71 2010-10-15 03:45:00 <noagendamarket> lol thrashaholic i was thinking the exact same thing
 72 2010-10-15 03:45:16 <mesees> well you guys deserve a pat on the back :)
 73 2010-10-15 03:45:42 <noagendamarket> *has short arms
 74 2010-10-15 03:45:55 <mesees> noagendamarket, hows that working out for ya
 75 2010-10-15 03:47:48 <noagendamarket> mesees my pockets are deep lol
 76 2010-10-15 03:48:36 <mesees> surely, its all perspective
 77 2010-10-15 04:19:04 <necrodearia> Is anyone else participating in the Dragon's Tale demo on Friday?
 78 2010-10-15 04:19:22 <mesees> necrodearia, whats dragons tale?
 79 2010-10-15 04:19:43 <necrodearia> mesees, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1392.0
 80 2010-10-15 04:19:45 <bitbot> Dragon's Tale - a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG/Casino
 81 2010-10-15 04:37:31 <FreeMoney> http://derpular.dyndns.org/auth/login?from_page=/twoDRPS
 82 2010-10-15 04:37:40 <FreeMoney> no one has played in over 24 hours
 83 2010-10-15 04:38:04 <FreeMoney> I have four games queued up, one of them was a misclick and will lose, free .08BTC there
 84 2010-10-15 04:40:12 <doublec> I thought about playing but there seems to be no actual description of the game until you deposit money
 85 2010-10-15 04:40:44 <mesees> so is bitcoin a fad?
 86 2010-10-15 04:40:59 <FreeMoney> oh really? I'll get you the rules
 87 2010-10-15 04:42:12 <FreeMoney> http://derpular.dyndns.org/twoDRPS/about
 88 2010-10-15 04:42:17 <FreeMoney> try that
 89 2010-10-15 04:42:34 <Diablo-D3> mesees: money itself is a fad
 90 2010-10-15 04:42:40 <FreeMoney> it's simple, but I think it's neat
 91 2010-10-15 04:42:50 <Diablo-D3> eventually humans will turn into beings of pure energy
 92 2010-10-15 04:43:04 <Kiba> realllllly?
 93 2010-10-15 04:43:25 <doublec> FreeMoney, I registered - what is the account number I need?
 94 2010-10-15 04:43:41 <doublec> FreeMoney, all the registration asked for was a password
 95 2010-10-15 04:44:04 <mesees> Diablo-D3, so how is bitcoin any better?
 96 2010-10-15 04:44:08 <FreeMoney> it gave you an address to send to, that is your account#
 97 2010-10-15 04:44:27 <FreeMoney> and you gave it the password, which is also where you can withdraw too
 98 2010-10-15 04:44:32 <mesees> Diablo-D3, and you should preface your other statement with "fiat"
 99 2010-10-15 04:44:38 <FreeMoney> could be a little more clear, I was confused for a bit too
100 2010-10-15 04:44:42 <Diablo-D3> mesees: how is it any better than what?
101 2010-10-15 04:44:43 <doublec> ah, right got it
102 2010-10-15 04:44:59 <mesees> Diablo-D3, all other "money"
103 2010-10-15 04:45:06 <mesees> or is it not
104 2010-10-15 04:45:13 <Kiba> mesees: I think you misunderstood him
105 2010-10-15 04:45:22 <Kiba> I think Diablo-D3 thought economic scarcity will disappear
106 2010-10-15 04:45:25 <Kiba> thus eliminating the need for money
107 2010-10-15 04:45:31 <Diablo-D3> yeah what kiba said
108 2010-10-15 04:45:36 <Diablo-D3> as in, I made a joke
109 2010-10-15 04:45:58 <mesees> Kiba, how in the world will scarcity disappear?
110 2010-10-15 04:46:13 <thrashaholic> obama.
111 2010-10-15 04:46:24 <Kiba> mesees: let see, we gather the energy from the sun in enormous quantity and with super efficency
112 2010-10-15 04:46:34 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, mesees, bitcoin is a system to allow anonymous mathematical provable transactions using a currency that can neither be created nor destroyed
113 2010-10-15 04:46:35 <thrashaholic> dyson sphere style
114 2010-10-15 04:47:02 <Kiba> and we all imprison oursleve in a computer simulation while bots work to maintain the overal integrity of said system
115 2010-10-15 04:47:11 <doublec> FreeMoney, waiting for deposit to go through and I'll play
116 2010-10-15 04:47:12 <Kiba> because we find scarcity and competition more fun
117 2010-10-15 04:47:19 <mesees> Kiba, when you say we, do you mean us as organic specimens or as a society?
118 2010-10-15 04:47:36 <Kiba> mesees: everybody.
119 2010-10-15 04:47:52 <Kiba> we all living fricking forever because we learn the serect of immortality
120 2010-10-15 04:47:55 <Kiba> and so on
121 2010-10-15 04:48:10 <Kiba> just imagine the future as fanasticallly...wealthy
122 2010-10-15 04:48:14 <mesees> Kiba, i like you
123 2010-10-15 04:48:15 <Kiba> so wealthy you can't imagine it
124 2010-10-15 04:48:20 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: well thats the thing
125 2010-10-15 04:48:25 <Diablo-D3> wealth itself will dissapear
126 2010-10-15 04:48:29 <Diablo-D3> since there are no more poor people
127 2010-10-15 04:48:34 <Diablo-D3> it'll be.... star trek
128 2010-10-15 04:48:39 <Diablo-D3> which is largely disturbing
129 2010-10-15 04:48:42 <mesees> what is this place?!?!
130 2010-10-15 04:48:59 <mesees> so bitcoin is star trek money?
131 2010-10-15 04:49:04 <Kiba> in the Star Trek, all the colors except white people disappear somehow
132 2010-10-15 04:49:17 <Diablo-D3> mesees: [02:46:35] <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is a system to allow anonymous mathematical provable transactions using a currency that can neither be created nor destroyed
133 2010-10-15 04:49:17 <mesees> Kiba, its called science
134 2010-10-15 04:49:22 <Kiba> and Star Trek seem to be a militaristic society
135 2010-10-15 04:49:27 <mesees> Diablo-D3, you said that already
136 2010-10-15 04:49:35 <Diablo-D3> thats what bitcoin is.
137 2010-10-15 04:49:44 <Diablo-D3> btc, as a currency, is largely a side effect
138 2010-10-15 04:50:08 <mesees> Diablo-D3, "currency that can neither be created nor destroyed" does that statement not seem odd in the slightest bit to you?
139 2010-10-15 04:50:18 <Diablo-D3> mesees: not at all
140 2010-10-15 04:50:20 <mesees> have you research money and or the history of money at all?
141 2010-10-15 04:50:34 <Diablo-D3> mesees: that isnt it, the system simply doesnt allow new money
142 2010-10-15 04:50:40 <Kiba> mesees: I think he was talking mathematics?
143 2010-10-15 04:50:47 <Diablo-D3> every brand new coin has a unique hash name
144 2010-10-15 04:50:57 <mesees> Diablo-D3, new money is integral to a functioning society
145 2010-10-15 04:51:03 <Diablo-D3> mesees: nope, its not.
146 2010-10-15 04:51:05 <ArtForzZz> no, it's not
147 2010-10-15 04:51:10 <mesees> ok, its not
148 2010-10-15 04:51:24 <Diablo-D3> the VALUE of the money can inflate (ie, the currency itself deflates)
149 2010-10-15 04:51:25 <Kiba> mesees and Diablo-D3 I believe are talking two different things
150 2010-10-15 04:51:47 <Diablo-D3> neither inflation nor deflation is bad for a society by itself
151 2010-10-15 04:51:53 <ArtForz> yep
152 2010-10-15 04:51:54 <mesees> really?!?!?1
153 2010-10-15 04:51:55 <Diablo-D3> its the RATE of such action thats bad
154 2010-10-15 04:52:14 <Diablo-D3> if a currency slowly inflates or deflates in a constant way, this is good for society
155 2010-10-15 04:52:26 <Diablo-D3> it must be stable, but moving.
156 2010-10-15 04:52:29 <Kiba> inflation is predicted and taken into account
157 2010-10-15 04:52:34 <mesees> those statements pertain to the supply of money
158 2010-10-15 04:52:39 <Kiba> by bitcoin spectulators
159 2010-10-15 04:52:43 <mesees> which you state will never increase or decrease
160 2010-10-15 04:52:46 <Diablo-D3> mesees: yes, and we have a constant supply
161 2010-10-15 04:52:52 <ArtForz> and with bitcoin, as the rate of "minting" is known in advance, the rate of monetary inflation is a known factor and can be easily taken into consideration
162 2010-10-15 04:52:53 <Diablo-D3> there is x coins, and will always be x coins
163 2010-10-15 04:53:16 <Diablo-D3> mesees: each new coin produced (which will end in the next few years), comes from a hash space of limited size
164 2010-10-15 04:53:24 <Kiba> computer prices can be predicted using moorse' law?
165 2010-10-15 04:53:47 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: no, but efficiency/watt ALMOST can
166 2010-10-15 04:54:39 <mesees> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2F83.143.248.39%2Ffaculty%2Fkpetrov%2FOther%2FCourse%2520Archive%2FMoney%2520and%2520Banking%2520Fall%25202006%2FRothbard%2520-%2520Theory%2520of%2520Money.pdf&rct=j&q=rothbard%20on%20money&ei=Wfq3TMnRF4TmsQPXiZ2fDw&usg=AFQjCNFUrCRHliyq6_uLP7bJ-xY80keFmw&sig2=gLn6tJ4woYe2KLHBMGNxTg -- this is a good start [pdf[
167 2010-10-15 04:54:54 <Diablo-D3> mesees: satoshi chose a maximum number of coins that is similar to the hash space based on the rules on which new coins are generated
168 2010-10-15 04:55:48 <mesees> how on earth can you be comfortable with some random dude picking the amount of currency in circulation?
169 2010-10-15 04:56:13 <Diablo-D3> satoshi invented bitcoin
170 2010-10-15 04:56:21 <Kiba> YUp.
171 2010-10-15 04:56:27 <mesees> Diablo-D3, that doesnt answer my question
172 2010-10-15 04:56:30 <Kiba> or write your own cyrptocurrency software
173 2010-10-15 04:56:46 <Diablo-D3> okay, how can you be comfortable with some random dude writing your OS?
174 2010-10-15 04:56:51 <Kiba> mesees: who will pick the number then?
175 2010-10-15 04:56:52 <mesees> can i assume those who believe in bitcoin have a distrust for the current monetary system?
176 2010-10-15 04:56:58 <Diablo-D3> or a bunch of random dudes making your country?
177 2010-10-15 04:57:01 <mesees> Kiba, read the link i gave you
178 2010-10-15 04:57:10 <Diablo-D3> or a bunch of random dudes doing ANYTHING
179 2010-10-15 04:57:16 <Kiba> mesees: dude, I am an Austrian
180 2010-10-15 04:57:21 <mesees> a bunch of random dudes is much better than one random
181 2010-10-15 04:57:35 <Diablo-D3> in that case, its still a bunch of random dudes
182 2010-10-15 04:57:38 <mesees> Kiba, no you arent - i heard you in #mises
183 2010-10-15 04:57:39 <Diablo-D3> satoshi didnt invent math
184 2010-10-15 04:57:53 <ArtForz> so, a comitee deciding "there will be 21M cons. ever." is better than an individual doing the same somehow?
185 2010-10-15 04:57:54 <Diablo-D3> he didnt even invent self-proving proof of work chains
186 2010-10-15 04:57:54 <Kiba> mesees: We accepted Satoshi's inventions.
187 2010-10-15 04:58:08 <Diablo-D3> he just made them useful in a new way
188 2010-10-15 04:58:11 <mesees> Kiba, i respect that
189 2010-10-15 04:58:17 <Kiba> satoshi's invention is useless without us using it anyway
190 2010-10-15 04:58:20 <thrashaholic> mesees: i accept satoshi's cap a lot more than i do bernanke's
191 2010-10-15 04:58:24 <Kiba> so it isn't that satoshi decided
192 2010-10-15 04:58:37 <Kiba> it is that the people who use bitcoins decided to use bitcoins that decide
193 2010-10-15 04:58:38 <mesees> thrashaholic, but why not bypass satoshi and accept real money
194 2010-10-15 04:58:44 <thrashaholic> what is "real"?
195 2010-10-15 04:58:48 <ArtForz> the only important part is that it's fixed, enforced by all peers, and known to everyone in advance
196 2010-10-15 04:58:49 <mesees> commodity
197 2010-10-15 04:58:52 <thrashaholic> ah
198 2010-10-15 04:58:55 <mesees> real value
199 2010-10-15 04:59:11 <Kiba> mesees: but bitcoins is better than gold!
200 2010-10-15 04:59:12 <mesees> proven for a few thousand years
201 2010-10-15 04:59:12 <thrashaholic> so you are comfortable with the laws of nature determining how much gold/silver/platinum/palladium is to be had?
202 2010-10-15 04:59:26 <Diablo-D3> mesees: the number, btw, isnt random
203 2010-10-15 04:59:27 <mesees> thrashaholic, i dont fight nature
204 2010-10-15 04:59:32 <mesees> i know what battles to pick
205 2010-10-15 04:59:36 <thrashaholic> name those laws "god" if you will, it is no different than satoshi
206 2010-10-15 04:59:58 <Diablo-D3> mesees: the sha256 hash space, when viewed by the rules of new coin generation is only so big
207 2010-10-15 04:59:58 <mesees> ie  global warming - we are ignorant to think we have such an impact on earth
208 2010-10-15 04:59:59 <Kiba> mesees: the improtant thing is that people on the free market decided to accept it
209 2010-10-15 05:00:15 <thrashaholic> it's based on mathematics, so the sum total in circulation is based on the same rules as the sum total of your "real" money
210 2010-10-15 05:00:24 <Kiba> not a bunch of guys trying to impose money onto us. It emerge that people stat to accept bitcoins.
211 2010-10-15 05:00:24 <mesees> Kiba, i like that part although i still dont fully understand it
212 2010-10-15 05:00:25 <bd_> Well, one could argue that gold/silver/platinum/etc have fundamental value other than as a currency
213 2010-10-15 05:00:36 <Diablo-D3> thrashaholic: not true
214 2010-10-15 05:00:49 <bd_> platinum is useful to catalyze various chemical reactions, gold plated conductors are useful for electronics, etc...
215 2010-10-15 05:00:50 <Diablo-D3> the US Government, through an unconstitutional method, wildly prints new money
216 2010-10-15 05:00:55 <ArtForz> with "real" fiat money someone can just change the rules out under your ass
217 2010-10-15 05:00:59 <mesees> see this is also what scares me, you guys cant agree on what bitcoin is/is not
218 2010-10-15 05:01:14 <bd_> Diablo-D3: Banks create a lot more money than the government does...
219 2010-10-15 05:01:15 <Kiba> mesees: so some guys say it's a commodity, not money...
220 2010-10-15 05:01:18 <Kiba> doesn't matter
221 2010-10-15 05:01:26 <thrashaholic> the same can be said of gold
222 2010-10-15 05:01:30 <Diablo-D3> bd_: directly, they don't
223 2010-10-15 05:01:42 <mesees> Kiba, worthless distinction
224 2010-10-15 05:01:44 <Diablo-D3> bd_: they use the federal reserve, which is a non-government company that was created by Congress.
225 2010-10-15 05:01:51 <bd_> Diablo-D3: In a way they do - you lend a bank $100, they lend out $90, but you keep acting as if you had $100
226 2010-10-15 05:01:51 <Kiba> mesees: worthless what?
227 2010-10-15 05:01:59 <bd_> So the economy sorta-kinda acts as if there's $190 now
228 2010-10-15 05:02:02 <Kiba> all I am syaing what some people said.
229 2010-10-15 05:02:07 <mesees> commodity vs. money - money is whatever one will trade for
230 2010-10-15 05:02:19 <Diablo-D3> bd_: btw, they MAY do it, but it doesnt mean they WILL
231 2010-10-15 05:02:22 <Kiba> bd_: that ain't possible with bitcoins right? or not?
232 2010-10-15 05:02:31 <bd_> Kiba: You can do that with any monetary unit
233 2010-10-15 05:02:39 <Diablo-D3> bd_: most of the lending is not done by big banks... its done by the huge ones, and we already know thats all fraud
234 2010-10-15 05:02:48 <bd_> You're just betting there won't be a bank run
235 2010-10-15 05:02:51 <Kiba> well, I imagine that they will be out of business as soon as there is a bank run
236 2010-10-15 05:03:02 <Kiba> sorta like mtgox except mtgox is full reserve
237 2010-10-15 05:03:05 <Diablo-D3> bd_: there cant be a bank run anymore, for the record
238 2010-10-15 05:03:20 <Diablo-D3> bd_: the banks also must meet specific reserve levels
239 2010-10-15 05:03:21 <bd_> Kiba: Basically, yeah, in countries with a fiat currency you can back up a bank with a guarentee that "we'll print more money if we have to to prevent you from losing money"
240 2010-10-15 05:03:25 <Kiba> there was a bank run toward bitcoins as soon as paypal dollars become worthless
241 2010-10-15 05:03:36 <thrashaholic> and by print they mean
242 2010-10-15 05:03:45 <Kiba> of course, some people think mtgox will recover
243 2010-10-15 05:03:47 <bd_> Kiba: that's not a bank run, that's just the value of the USD side suddenly taking a nose dive :)
244 2010-10-15 05:03:47 <thrashaholic> M3+1x10^23
245 2010-10-15 05:04:01 <Diablo-D3> bd_: the FDIC, which is a company that is part of the Treasury, can and will print money (through the Treasury) if there is a bank run
246 2010-10-15 05:04:11 <bd_> Diablo-D3: Right. But you can't just print money with bitcoins.
247 2010-10-15 05:04:15 <bd_> That's the only difference.
248 2010-10-15 05:04:22 <Diablo-D3> bd_: but there are no bitcoin banks.
249 2010-10-15 05:04:27 <bd_> Yet.
250 2010-10-15 05:04:29 <Diablo-D3> nor should there, that is nonsensical
251 2010-10-15 05:04:30 <Kiba> nobody need a bitcoin banks?
252 2010-10-15 05:04:33 <bd_> So yeah, you can do fractional reserve banking in bitcoins.
253 2010-10-15 05:04:39 <bd_> However, there'll be no FDIC to back you up.
254 2010-10-15 05:04:42 <Diablo-D3> you CAN do it, but why would you do it?
255 2010-10-15 05:04:47 <Kiba> which mean less moral hazard
256 2010-10-15 05:04:49 <bd_> Diablo-D3: Because it can be profitable?
257 2010-10-15 05:04:50 <Diablo-D3> every bitcoin client is a bank in it's own right
258 2010-10-15 05:04:51 <sandos> to make money, duh? =)
259 2010-10-15 05:04:57 <bd_> Diablo-D3: Remember, banks give interest.
260 2010-10-15 05:05:13 <Diablo-D3> bd_: but interest is generated by loaning
261 2010-10-15 05:05:21 <Kiba> bd_: well..if you can't withdraw your money while it is generating interests...
262 2010-10-15 05:05:28 <FreeMoney> banks USED TO give interest :-0
263 2010-10-15 05:05:31 <Kiba> than it's full reserve banking
264 2010-10-15 05:05:34 <Diablo-D3> FreeMoney: oh, they still do
265 2010-10-15 05:05:35 <thrashaholic> bitcoin denominated CDs
266 2010-10-15 05:05:45 <Diablo-D3> btc denominated CDs could work
267 2010-10-15 05:05:53 <Diablo-D3> but it'd be pointless
268 2010-10-15 05:06:00 <FreeMoney> pfft, 0.45%?
269 2010-10-15 05:06:07 <Kiba> if there is continously price deflation, than bitcoins naturally earn interest rate
270 2010-10-15 05:06:08 <Diablo-D3> FreeMoney: >1%
271 2010-10-15 05:06:12 <FreeMoney> double your money once per lifetime?
272 2010-10-15 05:06:15 <thrashaholic> that is true
273 2010-10-15 05:06:22 <bd_> Diablo-D3: Right. So you'd need to lend out BTC.
274 2010-10-15 05:06:41 <Kiba> you could save some and it will sit there earning interest rate
275 2010-10-15 05:06:49 <Diablo-D3> FreeMoney: incredible is still offering 1.42%
276 2010-10-15 05:06:57 <bd_> I mean, there's nothing fundamentally different from this and regular banks, except that the government's not guarenteeing banks
277 2010-10-15 05:07:09 <bd_> people used savings accounts before the FDIC came around, after all
278 2010-10-15 05:07:18 <bd_> Think of it as a type of mutual fund if you prefer :_)
279 2010-10-15 05:07:37 <Diablo-D3> bd_: the big problem IS we cant print more in the case of system damage.
280 2010-10-15 05:07:50 <Diablo-D3> I would never loan money to anyone through BTC itself.
281 2010-10-15 05:07:58 <Diablo-D3> that would be absurd
282 2010-10-15 05:08:07 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: that will prevent printing of money in case that the system is poorly designed
283 2010-10-15 05:08:13 <Kiba> you wouldn't run into that with bitcoins
284 2010-10-15 05:08:24 <FreeMoney> does the FDIC cover partial interest earned on a CD when the bank goes under?
285 2010-10-15 05:08:28 <Kiba> banks will collapse...
286 2010-10-15 05:08:32 <Diablo-D3> FreeMoney: yes
287 2010-10-15 05:09:02 <Kiba> one possiblity is that payment processing companies would earn interests for those who keep accounts with the company
288 2010-10-15 05:09:05 <FreeMoney> surprising, but why the hell not right?
289 2010-10-15 05:09:08 <Kiba> say mybitcoin
290 2010-10-15 05:09:16 <Kiba> you earn X on X revenues?
291 2010-10-15 05:09:22 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: but how do you earn "interest"
292 2010-10-15 05:09:27 <Diablo-D3> the money has to come from somewhere
293 2010-10-15 05:09:37 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: payment processing fees
294 2010-10-15 05:09:42 <Diablo-D3> remember, BTC deflates, not inflates
295 2010-10-15 05:09:50 <Diablo-D3> merely holding BTC inflates value.
296 2010-10-15 05:09:52 <Kiba> hmm..it doesn't make sense
297 2010-10-15 05:10:12 <Diablo-D3> traditional interest only works in an inflating system
298 2010-10-15 05:10:36 <Kiba> unless, of course, it was design as a scheme to increase the number of people using their services
299 2010-10-15 05:12:34 <Kiba> basically your account with the payment processign company would accumlate a few bitcoins each month instead of earning interest rate on how much money you have with the company
300 2010-10-15 05:15:42 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/15/amd-launching-next-generation-of-radeon-graphics-cards-next-week/
301 2010-10-15 05:15:55 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: they'd earn themselves money, yes
302 2010-10-15 05:16:26 <Kiba> interesting scheme too
303 2010-10-15 05:16:44 <Kiba> if you spend money that you earned from your account, some of it will go to the company itself
304 2010-10-15 05:17:03 <ArtForz> diablo-d3: slightly inaccurate
305 2010-10-15 05:17:36 <ArtForz> 6850/6870 should start shipping late oct/early nov
306 2010-10-15 05:17:37 <Kiba> like credit card rewards
307 2010-10-15 05:18:20 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: yes, but in reverse.
308 2010-10-15 05:18:34 <ArtForz> and cayman probably late nov/early dec
309 2010-10-15 05:19:50 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: ?
310 2010-10-15 05:20:07 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: btc is a limited commodity
311 2010-10-15 05:20:12 <Kiba> well, I meant getting bitcoins deposited
312 2010-10-15 05:20:18 <Diablo-D3> companies have to make money
313 2010-10-15 05:20:24 <Diablo-D3> so everytime you use a btc bank
314 2010-10-15 05:20:29 <Diablo-D3> they take some of your money and keep it
315 2010-10-15 05:20:34 <Diablo-D3> ergo, its nonsensical to have a btc bank
316 2010-10-15 05:21:11 <Diablo-D3> the system itself provides all transaction services you'll ever need
317 2010-10-15 05:22:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I want one :<
318 2010-10-15 05:23:36 <ArtForz> well, from pre-order pricing at etailers 6870 looks competetive with 5850
319 2010-10-15 05:25:54 <Kiba> computers used to cost thousand of dollars..
320 2010-10-15 05:25:57 <Kiba> hmm
321 2010-10-15 05:25:59 <Kiba> oh.
322 2010-10-15 05:26:52 <ArtForz> factoring in the rest of the system, 6870 should be a bit worse than 5970 for Mh/$ and about == to 5970 for Mh/kWh
323 2010-10-15 05:29:05 <ArtForz> of course if/when quad 5970 actually works Mh/$ looks even better for it
324 2010-10-15 05:35:38 <lfm> Diablo-D3, I can see a roll for a BTC bank. makeing loans and paying interest on deposits, not much of a role for security is all
325 2010-10-15 05:36:27 <ArtForz> I'm probably gonna test > 4 GPUs again with 2x5970 + 2x5770 when cat 10.10 is out, and if it works try 4x5970
326 2010-10-15 05:37:24 <lfm> role
327 2010-10-15 05:38:17 <ArtForz> though for 4x5970 flexible PCIe risers to get some distance between the cards will most likely be needed, unless you want to cook the cards in the center
328 2010-10-15 05:39:35 <Kiba> lfm: I think there are roles for banks making it more liquid in some way
329 2010-10-15 05:39:58 <ArtForz> in the pyrit on 4x5970 video the center cards were >95???C core, and I'm guessing that was at 100% fanspeed ...
330 2010-10-15 05:40:00 <Kiba> like being an intermediary for your wallet
331 2010-10-15 05:40:29 <lfm> yes, by taking deposits and letting out loans they increase the rate of circulation
332 2010-10-15 05:41:03 <ArtForz> he also only got about 3x 5970 speeds out of it, my guess is because the center cards were actually throttling ...
333 2010-10-15 05:41:40 <lfm> ArtForz, ya the way those fans take there input they are not optimal for close packing
334 2010-10-15 05:42:33 <Kiba> lfm: there could be possible needs for microloands
335 2010-10-15 05:42:41 <Kiba> s/microloands/microloans...
336 2010-10-15 05:42:55 <lfm> ArtForz, perhpas the expansion boxes we discussed the other night might help too
337 2010-10-15 05:43:06 <ArtForz> well, I was thinking using flexible PCIe extenders like the guys did for the 6xGTX295+GTX275 box
338 2010-10-15 05:43:37 <ArtForz> except only using a 4-slot board and spacing 4 5970s so there's 1 slot in between em
339 2010-10-15 05:44:07 <Diablo-D3> [03:36:27] <ArtForz> I'm probably gonna test > 4 GPUs again with 2x5970 + 2x5770 when cat 10.10 is out, and if it works try 4x5970
340 2010-10-15 05:44:09 <Diablo-D3> should be soon
341 2010-10-15 05:44:43 <ArtForz> http://fastra2.ua.ac.be/?page_id=38
342 2010-10-15 05:44:43 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, the 90 degree extenders that flip the card "upright' are interesting
343 2010-10-15 05:44:48 <Diablo-D3> remember, they flip both directions
344 2010-10-15 05:45:04 <Diablo-D3> ie, left and right
345 2010-10-15 05:45:22 <Diablo-D3> oh wait, the hell?
346 2010-10-15 05:45:26 <Diablo-D3> what the hell are those?
347 2010-10-15 05:45:35 <ArtForz> 6 GTX295s and a GTX275
348 2010-10-15 05:45:59 <Diablo-D3> http://fastra2.ua.ac.be/wp-content/gallery/fastra2/IMG_0414.JPG
349 2010-10-15 05:46:03 <Diablo-D3> jesus fuck
350 2010-10-15 05:46:09 <ArtForz> flexible PCIe extenders
351 2010-10-15 05:46:18 <Diablo-D3> you could just build two cases at that rate.
352 2010-10-15 05:46:20 <ArtForz> w/ 3" cable length they're like $30 a pop
353 2010-10-15 05:46:27 <lfm> stupid blue light makes it harder to see
354 2010-10-15 05:47:18 <Diablo-D3> Ive never seen anything like those extenders
355 2010-10-15 05:47:20 <Diablo-D3> thats neat
356 2010-10-15 05:47:44 <ArtForz> they're kinda popular for HTPC stuff
357 2010-10-15 05:48:19 <Diablo-D3> Ive only ever seen the semi-flexable circuit board ones
358 2010-10-15 05:48:53 <ArtForz> even cheaper, just use 2 straight-up extensions ~4" and stagger the cards
359 2010-10-15 05:49:11 <Diablo-D3> thats what I was marginally thinking
360 2010-10-15 05:50:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: thing is though
361 2010-10-15 05:50:41 <Diablo-D3> they make cases with a shitload of slots
362 2010-10-15 05:51:00 <Diablo-D3> enough for those extra big workstation boards that are > atx
363 2010-10-15 05:51:07 <lfm> a cage inside the main box?
364 2010-10-15 05:51:11 <ArtForz> who needs a case? waste of money
365 2010-10-15 05:51:20 <Diablo-D3> well, you need SOMETHING to mount the shit on
366 2010-10-15 05:51:34 <thrashaholic> lexan
367 2010-10-15 05:51:37 <ArtForz> MDF
368 2010-10-15 05:54:15 <ArtForz> 790FX board w/ 4 PCIe x8 + cpu + ram + 2 PCIe extenders is quite a bit cheaper than 2* board w/ 2 PCIe x8 + 2* cpu + 2* ram
369 2010-10-15 05:55:01 <Diablo-D3> I never said buy another board
370 2010-10-15 05:55:11 <Diablo-D3> Im saying just use a case with a fuckload of slots
371 2010-10-15 05:55:14 <ArtForz> it'll still need 2 PSUs if you plan on running the cards at 5870 clocks/voltages
372 2010-10-15 05:55:28 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: depends on the case, btw
373 2010-10-15 05:55:32 <Diablo-D3> there ARE cases that have 2 PSU slots
374 2010-10-15 05:55:35 <Diablo-D3> so you dont have to fuck around
375 2010-10-15 05:55:44 <ArtForz> as even a 1500W PSU would be cutting it pretty close
376 2010-10-15 05:56:08 <Diablo-D3> well, its the fucking 12v
377 2010-10-15 05:56:14 <ArtForz> and one of those tends to be more expensive than 2 80+ gold rated 1000W units
378 2010-10-15 05:56:22 <Diablo-D3> you really need to just add up all the goddamned 12v amps
379 2010-10-15 05:56:26 <ArtForz> yep
380 2010-10-15 05:56:28 <Diablo-D3> which is going to be more than God
381 2010-10-15 05:56:51 <Diablo-D3> somewhere out there someone is going "I thought they'red be no maths involved!"
382 2010-10-15 05:57:01 <ArtForz> well, nothing too crazy, total about 120A @ 12V
383 2010-10-15 05:57:11 <Diablo-D3> the fun part is
384 2010-10-15 05:57:27 <Diablo-D3> you may have to start looking at hiring an electrician
385 2010-10-15 05:57:36 <lfm> if you have a separate ps in a separate frame you could use a plus in a second circuit and not worry about a limited 1500 w circuit
386 2010-10-15 05:57:50 <lfm> plus ->plug
387 2010-10-15 05:57:54 <Diablo-D3> lfm: well, we refer to them in amps
388 2010-10-15 05:58:03 <ArtForz> single circuit around here is 3.5kW
389 2010-10-15 05:58:04 <Diablo-D3> getting 120 20a stuff isnt hard (over the usual 15)
390 2010-10-15 05:58:14 <ArtForz> = no problems
391 2010-10-15 05:58:49 <Diablo-D3> for those wondering what that looks like, it has a tiny lockout bit
392 2010-10-15 05:59:04 <Diablo-D3> looks like a normal socket, but theres a little notch in the side of one of the blade slots
393 2010-10-15 05:59:16 <Diablo-D3> so you can plug normal 15a stuff, plus 20a stuff
394 2010-10-15 05:59:40 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, the rate you're going
395 2010-10-15 05:59:44 <Diablo-D3> you'd need like
396 2010-10-15 05:59:46 <Diablo-D3> a three phase
397 2010-10-15 05:59:50 <ArtForz> and around here if 16A single phase is not enough you go 16A 3-phase
398 2010-10-15 05:59:50 <lfm> well those who cant re do the wiring might need an alternative then
399 2010-10-15 06:00:13 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yeah, but how the hell are you going to get two circuits in the same room?
400 2010-10-15 06:00:18 <Diablo-D3> you need someone to install a second
401 2010-10-15 06:00:25 <ArtForz> my subpanel is 63A 3-phase ...
402 2010-10-15 06:00:38 <lfm> Diablo-D3, its a standard kitchen curcuit! grin
403 2010-10-15 06:00:49 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, thats a 240v
404 2010-10-15 06:01:01 <Diablo-D3> which is technically a 208 three phase since they bound two 120s together
405 2010-10-15 06:01:17 <lfm> same effect
406 2010-10-15 06:01:23 <necrodearia> ;estimate
407 2010-10-15 06:01:25 <Diablo-D3> well, its even a greater effect
408 2010-10-15 06:01:26 <bitbot> necrodearia: LastDiff(3d 02:26:19 ago)  ExpBlocks(446)  ActualBlocks(567)  TrgNewDiffDate(2010/10/26 05:35:05 GMT)  EstNewDiffDate(2010/10/23 06:15:19 GMT)  EstNewDiff(1751.88838626)
409 2010-10-15 06:01:42 <Diablo-D3> if you have a PSU thats for rack usage three phase, you're better off
410 2010-10-15 06:02:03 <Diablo-D3> you can plug a 240 device into a three phase, it works, but you lose efficiency a bit
411 2010-10-15 06:02:22 <lfm> well I wander what the rack mount case does to the budget
412 2010-10-15 06:02:27 <ArtForz> american power circuitry is weird
413 2010-10-15 06:02:34 <Diablo-D3> lfm: you dont need one
414 2010-10-15 06:02:38 <Diablo-D3> lfm: a lot of cases can be converted anyhow
415 2010-10-15 06:03:10 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: not really, its 60hz, 120v, 15 or 20 amps
416 2010-10-15 06:03:29 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: its almost no difference than euro stuff
417 2010-10-15 06:03:54 <Kiba> ;mtgox
418 2010-10-15 06:03:55 <Diablo-D3> 50hz, 240v, 16a or the other one (30 something?)
419 2010-10-15 06:03:56 <bitbot> Kiba: Mt. Gox: Last(0.1) High(0.103) Low(0.065) BestSellPrice(0.1) BestBuyPrice(0.102) Volume(23572)
420 2010-10-15 06:04:04 <lfm> then there is our kitchen circuits and out electric ranges and dryers
421 2010-10-15 06:04:10 <Kiba> volume for mtgox is still higher than bitcoinmarket
422 2010-10-15 06:04:12 <Kiba> what gives?
423 2010-10-15 06:04:21 <ArtForz> we basically just have 230V single phase and 230/400V 3-phase for domestic
424 2010-10-15 06:04:32 <lfm> kiba 24 hr trading?
425 2010-10-15 06:04:36 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: its double phase
426 2010-10-15 06:04:39 <Diablo-D3> pretty sure it is
427 2010-10-15 06:04:45 <Diablo-D3> single phase would be DC wouldnt it/
428 2010-10-15 06:04:56 <Kiba> ;bcm
429 2010-10-15 06:04:57 <bitbot> Kiba: Bitcoin Market: Bid(0.068) Ask(0.068) Last(0.0635) High(0.09) Low(0.08) Volume(1500)
430 2010-10-15 06:05:12 <Diablo-D3> lfm: btw, ovens, dryers, hot water heaters, etc, in the US, use high amp three phase
431 2010-10-15 06:05:12 <Kiba> I thought bitcoin market underwent an upgrade or something
432 2010-10-15 06:05:22 <lfm> single phase is still ac
433 2010-10-15 06:05:24 <ArtForz> no, as in we split 3-phase 230/400 into 3* 1-phase 230V vs. star point
434 2010-10-15 06:05:44 <Diablo-D3> lfm: its two 120 circuits put together into a 3 phrase
435 2010-10-15 06:05:48 <Diablo-D3> er, phase
436 2010-10-15 06:06:04 <lfm> regular 120 circuits are single phase
437 2010-10-15 06:06:06 <Diablo-D3> lfm: so its supposed to be 2 phase 240v high amp
438 2010-10-15 06:06:15 <Diablo-D3> but never works like that
439 2010-10-15 06:06:33 <Diablo-D3> 208v three phase and 240v are the same thing if your hardware is designed right
440 2010-10-15 06:06:48 <ArtForz> electric range, water heaters, shop, ... gets 3-phase
441 2010-10-15 06:10:16 <ArtForz> anyways, ~1600W for 4* 5970 at 5870 voltage/clocks on a single circuit is no problem around here
442 2010-10-15 06:10:27 <lfm> k
443 2010-10-15 06:13:20 <lfm> I never seen a PC power supply other than the regular single phase I think
444 2010-10-15 06:13:45 <ArtForz> not for normal PCs
445 2010-10-15 06:14:33 <Diablo-D3> lfm: they make three phase ones
446 2010-10-15 06:14:33 <lfm> all rach mount style then?
447 2010-10-15 06:14:36 <Diablo-D3> for enterprise
448 2010-10-15 06:14:42 <Diablo-D3> they're not "rack mount style"
449 2010-10-15 06:14:44 <Diablo-D3> thats nonsensical
450 2010-10-15 06:15:36 <Diablo-D3> lfm: in a rack, you get lines directly dropped from the ceiling (or come up from the floor)
451 2010-10-15 06:15:58 <Diablo-D3> they're (usually) not hardwired
452 2010-10-15 06:16:12 <lfm> well "entrprise" never has made much sense to me. just an excuse for excess sometimes it seems
453 2010-10-15 06:16:23 <Diablo-D3> you plug your rack's PDU (ie, a powerstrip) into it
454 2010-10-15 06:16:30 <Diablo-D3> they can drop in standard 120v lines
455 2010-10-15 06:16:49 <Diablo-D3> or they can drop in 208v three phase in
456 2010-10-15 06:16:51 <ArtForz> around here we tend to run 3-phase to the PDUs
457 2010-10-15 06:17:02 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: depends on what you need
458 2010-10-15 06:17:14 <ArtForz> well, for high density stuff
459 2010-10-15 06:17:18 <Diablo-D3> goog has DCs that are at least partially 48v
460 2010-10-15 06:17:40 <ArtForz> CEE plugs FTW!
461 2010-10-15 06:18:00 <Diablo-D3> goog uses custom build PSUs that are actually the innards of cheap UPSes
462 2010-10-15 06:18:23 <Diablo-D3> so they get "free" 48v->48v conversion, with a tiny battery
463 2010-10-15 06:18:44 <Diablo-D3> and they step it down to 12v for a micro-PSU
464 2010-10-15 06:19:21 <Diablo-D3> its nuts
465 2010-10-15 06:20:01 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: but yeah, I dunno what they do in euro
466 2010-10-15 06:20:04 <ArtForz> afair they run 110 to the PSU, PSU outputs 13.5V float-charging a 12V SLA cell, mainboard has 9-15V input DC-DC step down
467 2010-10-15 06:20:05 <Diablo-D3> for DCs
468 2010-10-15 06:20:25 <Diablo-D3> afiak they're not ramping it back up to 120
469 2010-10-15 06:20:29 <Diablo-D3> at goog
470 2010-10-15 06:20:33 <Diablo-D3> I saw a paper on what they were doing
471 2010-10-15 06:20:39 <ArtForz> really? guess they changed stuff again
472 2010-10-15 06:20:41 <Diablo-D3> UPS almost always use 48v internally
473 2010-10-15 06:20:53 <ArtForz> depends on the size of the UPS
474 2010-10-15 06:20:58 <Diablo-D3> true
475 2010-10-15 06:21:00 <Diablo-D3> but quite a few do
476 2010-10-15 06:21:03 <Diablo-D3> even the one under my desk does
477 2010-10-15 06:21:15 <ArtForz> small single-box units usually run 12V
478 2010-10-15 06:21:25 <lfm> real cheap ups just use 12 v battery (or 13.55 if you prefer)
479 2010-10-15 06:21:43 <Diablo-D3> I imagine they're doing whatever they can get
480 2010-10-15 06:21:49 <ArtForz> and for really big stuff it's not too uncommon to have >300V on the DC bus
481 2010-10-15 06:21:50 <Diablo-D3> and they rip off the AC->DC converter
482 2010-10-15 06:22:07 <Diablo-D3> and plug it right into 48v from the DC
483 2010-10-15 06:22:34 <Diablo-D3> and then rip off the DC->AC converter and wire a standard micro-PSU into it
484 2010-10-15 06:22:49 <Diablo-D3> insert 48->12 step down at the appropriate places
485 2010-10-15 06:22:57 <lfm> real-real cheap ups dont bother putting out a sine wave since a square wave (under load) works most of the time
486 2010-10-15 06:23:07 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yeah, but kills PSUs
487 2010-10-15 06:23:14 <ArtForz> nope
488 2010-10-15 06:23:37 <ArtForz> a PFC-less PSU doesn't give a rats ass if it gets fed sinewave, square or DC
489 2010-10-15 06:23:56 <Diablo-D3> then again, theres the whole argument of triangle vs sine (ffff)
490 2010-10-15 06:23:58 <joe_1> i want a sine wave
491 2010-10-15 06:24:00 <lfm> kills old psus then?
492 2010-10-15 06:24:11 <ArtForz> actually kills new PSUs
493 2010-10-15 06:24:20 <Diablo-D3> I have a PFC'ed PSU =P
494 2010-10-15 06:24:21 <ArtForz> afair active PFC + square wave = bad idea
495 2010-10-15 06:24:35 <lfm> private first class?
496 2010-10-15 06:24:41 <ArtForz> Power Factor Correction
497 2010-10-15 06:25:03 <ArtForz> oh, and there's also modified sine / trapezoid
498 2010-10-15 06:25:04 <nathan7> :o
499 2010-10-15 06:25:09 <lfm> ah, like they do away with the slider switch for 120-240?
500 2010-10-15 06:25:12 <ArtForz> = clipped sine wave
501 2010-10-15 06:25:16 <ArtForz> yep
502 2010-10-15 06:25:18 <Diablo-D3> lfm: a lot have, yes
503 2010-10-15 06:25:26 <Diablo-D3> its kinda rare to find brand new PSUs with switches
504 2010-10-15 06:25:31 <nathan7> Put a passive PFC in front, filter shit to sine?
505 2010-10-15 06:25:57 <ArtForz> ferroresonant UPS = fun
506 2010-10-15 06:26:10 <joe_1> wats that
507 2010-10-15 06:26:37 <nathan7> ArtForz: but the ferroresonant bit is like for second-long outages, right?
508 2010-10-15 06:27:07 <ArtForz> yep, the ferroresonant bit is for line filtering and for the ~0.1s switchover time until the inverter kicks in
509 2010-10-15 06:27:12 <Diablo-D3> hah
510 2010-10-15 06:27:21 <Diablo-D3> I just use a double converting always online PSU
511 2010-10-15 06:27:31 <lfm> and power factor correction might tolerate brownouts and such  somewhat
512 2010-10-15 06:27:36 <Diablo-D3> lfm: they do
513 2010-10-15 06:27:51 <Diablo-D3> really good PFCs can do a fair bit of shit before it cuts out
514 2010-10-15 06:27:54 <ArtForz> efficiency for ferroresonant > double conversion
515 2010-10-15 06:28:07 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, but paranoia for double conversion > ferro
516 2010-10-15 06:28:12 <ArtForz> drawback of ferroresonant: big-ass transformer
517 2010-10-15 06:28:23 <Diablo-D3> seriously, my box isnt even plugged into the wall at all