1 2010-11-29 00:00:24 <genjix> dwdollar: ah ok. im thinking maybe to setup a UK exchange, just not sure about the bank part
   2 2010-11-29 00:00:43 <genjix> would I need to do that manually? or do banks offer some kind of api for internet banking
   3 2010-11-29 00:00:53 <genjix> maybe i can write a html parser :p
   4 2010-11-29 00:03:10 <genjix> ah ok google is my friend
   5 2010-11-29 00:03:25 <dwdollar> Don't know about the UK, but it's not so easy to use a bank here in the US.
   6 2010-11-29 00:07:27 <genjix> i can download statements as a csv file :)
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  10 2010-11-29 00:22:11 <xelister_> genjix: same in PL in many banks with e-access
  11 2010-11-29 00:22:22 <genjix> poland?
  12 2010-11-29 00:22:26 <xelister_> y
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  16 2010-11-29 00:43:39 <anarchy_> ;;bc,stats
  17 2010-11-29 00:43:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94391 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 360 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 5 hours, 23 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7717.23157974
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  28 2010-11-29 01:46:50 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
  29 2010-11-29 01:46:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94401 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 350 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 3 hours, 51 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7724.07387225
  30 2010-11-29 01:46:59 <andrew12> yay i've all the blocks
  31 2010-11-29 01:50:11 <chronomex> heh
  32 2010-11-29 01:50:44 <xelister> which version of libdb, openssl, boost  are needed by bitcoin?
  33 2010-11-29 01:51:05 <andrew12> the latest is usually the best...
  34 2010-11-29 01:51:06 <xelister> especially, if db 4.8.30 enough
  35 2010-11-29 01:51:14 <theymos> xelister: Check build-unix.txt.
  36 2010-11-29 01:51:20 <xelister> andrew12: oracle have some gayified access to download of recent version
  37 2010-11-29 01:51:31 <andrew12> wat
  38 2010-11-29 01:52:23 <xelister> andrew12: the bitches from Oracle want to give 10+ stupid questionare because granting access to download db 5.x
  39 2010-11-29 01:52:30 <xelister> *before
  40 2010-11-29 02:04:02 <Kiba`> does it have any relation wtih bitcoins?
  41 2010-11-29 02:07:21 <xelister> Kiba`: needed to build bitcoin
  42 2010-11-29 02:11:44 andrew12 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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  47 2010-11-29 02:44:28 Kiba` is now known as kiba
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  49 2010-11-29 02:52:16 <bencoder> kiba: you there? I alpha/beta finished my competing download site against ubitio.us
  50 2010-11-29 02:52:33 <bencoder> http://www.bitcoinservice.co.uk
  51 2010-11-29 02:53:15 <kiba> so I have to register
  52 2010-11-29 02:53:20 <bencoder> yes you get a balance
  53 2010-11-29 02:53:33 <bencoder> i take 10% or 0.01 coins when you decide to withdraw your balance
  54 2010-11-29 02:53:40 <bencoder> whichever is bigger
  55 2010-11-29 02:53:51 <xelister> how to force bitcoin to connect to given node by node ip
  56 2010-11-29 02:54:00 <kiba> bencoder: interesting
  57 2010-11-29 02:55:16 <bencoder> it's very rough at the moment, i just made it quickly from scratch in the last.. uh.. 3 hours
  58 2010-11-29 02:56:15 <bencoder> 4 hours even
  59 2010-11-29 02:56:26 <kiba> I will give your service a try.
  60 2010-11-29 02:56:33 <kiba> the next download.
  61 2010-11-29 02:56:49 <kiba> you could use a better..domain
  62 2010-11-29 02:56:57 <bencoder> and you can set price of files
  63 2010-11-29 02:57:15 <bencoder> i know, it wasn't intended for this
  64 2010-11-29 02:57:30 <kiba> so I can set a price
  65 2010-11-29 02:57:38 <bencoder> yes
  66 2010-11-29 02:57:45 <kiba> but, you don't allow anonymous upload and anonymous commision
  67 2010-11-29 02:58:19 <bencoder> no this is true, but accounts are pseudonymous, you could use any username, and the person downloading doesn't see who uploaded it
  68 2010-11-29 02:58:52 <xelister> how to use soemthing else, simplier, then metacity for composition in wm?
  69 2010-11-29 02:59:02 <xelister> gnome/metacity is SLOW AS SHIT with diablo's miner.
  70 2010-11-29 02:59:05 darrob has quit (Disconnected by services)
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  72 2010-11-29 02:59:16 <kiba> bencoder: well, if you want to win, I think you'll be good with bitcoin address only component business model of ubitious
  73 2010-11-29 02:59:35 <bencoder> hmm
  74 2010-11-29 03:00:19 <bencoder> well, this way you can earn more
  75 2010-11-29 03:00:34 <kiba> it had nothing to do with commision fee
  76 2010-11-29 03:00:39 <kiba> but barrier of entry
  77 2010-11-29 03:01:04 <bencoder> ok
  78 2010-11-29 03:01:13 <bencoder> i will think about it
  79 2010-11-29 03:01:50 <kiba> if people want to try it, they might not want an account.
  80 2010-11-29 03:02:38 <bencoder> btw as you are kind of beta tester i will pay you back all money for the first few withdrawals, just let me know when you make a withdrawal and i'll send the 10%/0.01 that i took
  81 2010-11-29 03:03:57 <bencoder> maybe i'll get a better domain tomorrow
  82 2010-11-29 03:04:16 <kiba> bencoder: do I have to do explict withdrawal?
  83 2010-11-29 03:04:37 <bencoder> yeah, because the comission i take is dependent on how much you withdraw
  84 2010-11-29 03:04:52 <bencoder> like if you made only one sale at 0.02
  85 2010-11-29 03:04:57 <bencoder> then you would only get 0.01
  86 2010-11-29 03:05:01 <bencoder> but if you waited
  87 2010-11-29 03:05:13 <bencoder> until it was 0.10
  88 2010-11-29 03:05:23 <bencoder> then you could withdraw 0.09 and i'd still only take 0.01
  89 2010-11-29 03:05:36 <kiba> interesting tradeoff
  90 2010-11-29 03:05:59 <kiba> I like ubitio.us automatic withdrawl. I don't have to think about it
  91 2010-11-29 03:06:02 <bencoder> but maybe automatic comission is a future feature
  92 2010-11-29 03:06:21 <bencoder> you could set the level and then when it goes above it it will send you the coins
  93 2010-11-29 03:06:31 <kiba> monthly withdrawal.
  94 2010-11-29 03:07:06 <kiba> You have one thing going for you: better commision fees.
  95 2010-11-29 03:07:26 <bencoder> no file expiry not a good thing?
  96 2010-11-29 03:07:37 <kiba> oh yeah, no file expiry is a good thing
  97 2010-11-29 03:07:38 <bencoder> ability to set prices... delete older files
  98 2010-11-29 03:07:44 <kiba> that's good too.
  99 2010-11-29 03:08:01 <kiba> but then you have a limited amount of space right?
 100 2010-11-29 03:08:03 <bencoder> you can change the price at a later point
 101 2010-11-29 03:08:17 <kiba> price flexibility, better commision fee.
 102 2010-11-29 03:08:21 <kiba> file flexibility.
 103 2010-11-29 03:08:34 <kiba> bencoder: you could do 1 GB of space.
 104 2010-11-29 03:08:57 <bencoder> yeah i don't have loads of space but i can fix that if it seems to be getting too much, i'll get more space
 105 2010-11-29 03:08:57 <kiba> of course, you will probably have less than 1 GB of space...
 106 2010-11-29 03:09:14 <kiba> less than 50 GB, and 50 accounts with 1 GB of space
 107 2010-11-29 03:09:30 <kiba> bencoder: you have to balance cost of your hosting versus profit margin you want to make
 108 2010-11-29 03:09:49 <bencoder> my hosting is cheap and i pay for it regardless of whether i use it or not
 109 2010-11-29 03:09:53 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 110 2010-11-29 03:10:05 <bencoder> because i use it for irssi
 111 2010-11-29 03:10:35 <bencoder> but it's not a lot of space yet
 112 2010-11-29 03:12:56 <bencoder> I only have 15gb on the server, so not many files can be uploaded, unless they're all small. but I have enough bandwidth to support a lot of downloads
 113 2010-11-29 03:13:44 <doublec> you could use amazon S3 as a backing store. host popular files on your server and redirect the long tail to amazon s3
 114 2010-11-29 03:13:56 <doublec> I used to do this for tinyvid.tv
 115 2010-11-29 03:14:25 <kiba> well, more competiton, better bitcoin downloading service
 116 2010-11-29 03:15:22 <bencoder> yeah, well, we'll see, at the moment it's just pretty much a copy of someone else's idea, if it gets popular then i'll sort out the drive issues, it's on a vps so i can go up a few service levels to get more space if i need it suddenly
 117 2010-11-29 03:16:38 <bencoder> if you upload something through the site kiba i'll buy it off you so we can test :P
 118 2010-11-29 03:17:39 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 119 2010-11-29 03:18:27 <kiba> http://www.bitcoinservice.co.uk/files/6
 120 2010-11-29 03:18:29 <kiba> here
 121 2010-11-29 03:18:34 <kiba> and make me some money!
 122 2010-11-29 03:18:46 <bencoder> :o 9cents!
 123 2010-11-29 03:19:20 <doublec> how many confirmations are you waiting for?
 124 2010-11-29 03:19:29 <kiba> yes
 125 2010-11-29 03:19:42 <kiba> that's worth 9 download from ubitio.us
 126 2010-11-29 03:20:51 <kiba> so
 127 2010-11-29 03:20:55 <doublec> 0 from the looks of things
 128 2010-11-29 03:20:59 <doublec> (I sent 0.09)
 129 2010-11-29 03:20:59 <kiba> how much balance was stored in the first place?
 130 2010-11-29 03:21:03 <kiba> 0?
 131 2010-11-29 03:21:13 <doublec> 0 confirmations
 132 2010-11-29 03:21:50 <kiba> bencoder: you may want to wait until enough confirmations had passed
 133 2010-11-29 03:21:53 <doublec> kiba, how do you as the file originator get the money? Is it automatically sent to you or does the server hold the balance.
 134 2010-11-29 03:22:03 <kiba> before giving me full credits
 135 2010-11-29 03:22:22 <kiba> doublec: I have to manually withdraw
 136 2010-11-29 03:22:34 <doublec> kiba, did you draw that/
 137 2010-11-29 03:22:40 <kiba> doublec: yes.
 138 2010-11-29 03:22:58 <doublec> kiba, nice.
 139 2010-11-29 03:23:12 <kiba> bencoder: I like to set automatic withdrawal
 140 2010-11-29 03:23:16 <bencoder> yeah i should probably wait
 141 2010-11-29 03:23:22 <bencoder> until confirmations
 142 2010-11-29 03:23:23 xelister has joined
 143 2010-11-29 03:23:38 <xelister> what was my quit msg?
 144 2010-11-29 03:23:46 <xelister> .j #linux
 145 2010-11-29 03:23:49 <bencoder> ping timeout
 146 2010-11-29 03:23:56 <kiba> an API would be great, ben
 147 2010-11-29 03:23:57 <kiba> coder
 148 2010-11-29 03:24:18 <xelister> how to use other composer then metacity for gnome? gnome is slow
 149 2010-11-29 03:24:19 <kiba> I got this idea of creating my own art gallery but using someone to host the downloads
 150 2010-11-29 03:25:17 <bencoder> maybe another time
 151 2010-11-29 03:25:30 <bencoder> i'm very tired. 3:20 here, i got work at 9 :(
 152 2010-11-29 03:26:28 <kiba> thanks for the bacons, guy.
 153 2010-11-29 03:26:41 <bencoder> :)
 154 2010-11-29 03:27:21 <bencoder> did you withdraw?
 155 2010-11-29 03:29:27 <kiba> I might as well
 156 2010-11-29 03:29:34 <kiba> withdraw
 157 2010-11-29 03:29:48 * bencoder crosses fingers
 158 2010-11-29 03:29:54 <kiba> Sorry. That page is unavailable.
 159 2010-11-29 03:30:08 <bencoder> resally? :o
 160 2010-11-29 03:30:10 ColonelPanic has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 161 2010-11-29 03:30:13 <kiba> yes.
 162 2010-11-29 03:30:14 <bencoder> hmmm
 163 2010-11-29 03:30:16 <kiba> nothing change
 164 2010-11-29 03:30:20 <kiba> maybe it will take a while
 165 2010-11-29 03:30:55 lfm has joined
 166 2010-11-29 03:31:03 <kiba> hippich and bencoder have day jobs..we'll see who is more...responsive
 167 2010-11-29 03:33:33 <bencoder> unfortunately i'm stuck on crappy 3g internet that disconnects often
 168 2010-11-29 03:33:43 <bencoder> so you get an error when you click withdraw now?
 169 2010-11-29 03:34:05 <bencoder> i just tried it on mine with a balance of 0.02 and it withdrew fine
 170 2010-11-29 03:34:18 <kiba> still..an error
 171 2010-11-29 03:34:23 <bencoder> :'(
 172 2010-11-29 03:34:34 <kiba> 3g connection?
 173 2010-11-29 03:34:39 <bencoder> yeah, mobile
 174 2010-11-29 03:34:50 <bencoder> cause i just recently moved into this flat, don't have proper internet
 175 2010-11-29 03:35:00 <kiba> your daemon is hosted on yoru computer?
 176 2010-11-29 03:35:06 <bencoder> no
 177 2010-11-29 03:42:54 ColonelPanic has joined
 178 2010-11-29 03:43:39 <xelister> how to see how many generated coins are in confirming state (20 hours)?
 179 2010-11-29 03:50:48 <bencoder> goodnight
 180 2010-11-29 03:51:09 <bencoder> thanks again kiba
 181 2010-11-29 03:52:46 redMBA has joined
 182 2010-11-29 04:14:23 acous has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 183 2010-11-29 04:23:09 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 184 2010-11-29 04:24:54 <xelister> wikileaks should publish bitcoin donation address
 185 2010-11-29 04:25:47 <doublec> there's a thread on the forums about requesting wikileaks accept bitcoins
 186 2010-11-29 04:26:18 <xelister> many people would donate now. they should put the address on the main page - others appear to be under attack
 187 2010-11-29 04:27:35 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
 188 2010-11-29 04:27:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94424 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 327 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 0 hours, 18 minutes, and 51 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7746.08450368
 189 2010-11-29 04:31:55 redMBA has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 190 2010-11-29 04:47:34 <OneFixt> ;;bc,estimate
 191 2010-11-29 04:47:35 <gribble> 7746.34995184
 192 2010-11-29 05:15:04 <xelister> I opened 8333 but just 7 connections. any idea why?
 193 2010-11-29 05:15:38 <theymos> You only make a maxiimum of 8 outbound connections. You'll get incoming connections slowly over time.
 194 2010-11-29 05:16:09 <xelister> yey, 11 now
 195 2010-11-29 05:16:20 <xelister> is there a way to manually add a bitcoin node?
 196 2010-11-29 05:16:33 <xelister> in example what if I have node A and friend has node B and we want to have them connected
 197 2010-11-29 05:16:56 <theymos> -addnode=ip
 198 2010-11-29 05:18:56 <xelister> woot
 199 2010-11-29 05:22:19 remmy_ has joined
 200 2010-11-29 05:25:00 <xelister> anyone successfully crossbuilded bitcoind.exe on linux?
 201 2010-11-29 05:25:36 <xelister> I've got, it seems, crossbuilded libs: boost, openssl, db;  and bitcoind.exe is compiling, but some problem at linking... resolved a dozen more problems but still some remain :[
 202 2010-11-29 05:25:39 <andrew12> of course
 203 2010-11-29 05:25:48 <xelister> andrew12: did you? or how to reach them
 204 2010-11-29 05:25:49 <andrew12> oh
 205 2010-11-29 05:25:50 <andrew12> ij
 206 2010-11-29 05:25:52 <andrew12> uh*
 207 2010-11-29 05:25:58 <andrew12> one sec
 208 2010-11-29 05:26:16 <andrew12> I haven't, no, but that's because I haven't *tried*.
 209 2010-11-29 05:26:55 <xelister> andrew12: try :)
 210 2010-11-29 05:26:55 <andrew12> xelister: if it's making bitcoin.exe then chances are you're using the windows version
 211 2010-11-29 05:27:02 <xelister> crossbuilind is such a bitch. fuuuuuuuuuuuuu
 212 2010-11-29 05:27:09 <xelister> andrew12: hm?
 213 2010-11-29 05:27:16 <xelister> andrew12: Im trying to *crossbuild*
 214 2010-11-29 05:27:25 <andrew12> why? :p
 215 2010-11-29 05:27:31 <xelister> because windows is for loosers
 216 2010-11-29 05:27:32 <xelister> sorry LobsterMan
 217 2010-11-29 05:28:37 <xelister> and seriously, because how are we going to be windows-free and support software that we can own without annoying and bad licences, if we are dependant on windows? So Im trying to not use windows, even when making windows program :) Did it before, but bitcoin has a lot of complex dependencies
 218 2010-11-29 05:30:02 <andrew12> yeah I thought you were trying to get bitcoin running on linux
 219 2010-11-29 05:30:12 <andrew12> and I was thinking "just download the linux version"
 220 2010-11-29 05:30:13 <andrew12> :p
 221 2010-11-29 05:30:25 <genjix> cool
 222 2010-11-29 05:30:48 <genjix> i dont get people who dual boot. its a bit pathetic :p
 223 2010-11-29 05:30:55 <andrew12> why?
 224 2010-11-29 05:31:17 <nanotube> if they need $windowsonlyapp... such is life. you do what you have to do.
 225 2010-11-29 05:31:23 <genjix> cos windows sucks, duh!
 226 2010-11-29 05:31:55 <genjix> nanotube: if you *really* need it then run wine or virtualbox
 227 2010-11-29 05:31:59 <andrew12> genjix: once there's steam for linux, and I can get the same framerate under linux, and someone writes a better IRC client for linux, then maybe i'll use it full time on my desktop
 228 2010-11-29 05:32:01 <andrew12> until then
 229 2010-11-29 05:32:05 <andrew12> dual boot
 230 2010-11-29 05:32:17 <genjix> IRC
 231 2010-11-29 05:32:19 <genjix> under linux
 232 2010-11-29 05:32:24 <genjix> are you joking
 233 2010-11-29 05:32:25 <nanotube> andrew12: well, xchat is a pretty damn good irc client for linux, fwiw. :)
 234 2010-11-29 05:32:30 <nanotube> as is irssi
 235 2010-11-29 05:32:32 <andrew12> I hate xchat
 236 2010-11-29 05:32:49 <nanotube> out of curiosity... why? i love xchat. :P
 237 2010-11-29 05:32:53 <genjix> Konversation, Quassel, Pidgin, Kopete, irssi
 238 2010-11-29 05:32:55 <genjix> damn
 239 2010-11-29 05:32:56 <andrew12> I want something like mIRC with the nick colors and timestamps and customization
 240 2010-11-29 05:33:02 <andrew12> quassel: no.
 241 2010-11-29 05:33:12 <andrew12> Konversation: KDE is no
 242 2010-11-29 05:33:12 <nanotube> andrew12: xchat has nick colors, and timestamps, and customizations...
 243 2010-11-29 05:33:21 <andrew12> nanotube: but not as much as mIRC
 244 2010-11-29 05:33:27 <genjix> take a pick. i would've placed irc client on least of reasons to stay on win
 245 2010-11-29 05:33:37 <genjix> irssi has all those too
 246 2010-11-29 05:33:39 <nanotube> andrew12: again, just curious - what precisely are you missing when you say 'not as much' ?
 247 2010-11-29 05:33:46 <genjix> screen + irssi = win
 248 2010-11-29 05:33:46 <andrew12> well if i'm just talking on one network i'll use irssi
 249 2010-11-29 05:34:12 <andrew12> which is usually the case when i'm on linux
 250 2010-11-29 05:34:25 <nanotube> (again, this is just idle discussion, since even if we found you a superior linux irc client in every way, you'd still be missing steam :) )
 251 2010-11-29 05:34:35 <andrew12> indeed
 252 2010-11-29 05:34:40 <kiba> I irc on emacs
 253 2010-11-29 05:34:44 <kiba> emacs is great on linux
 254 2010-11-29 05:34:54 <nanotube> i'm just curious what's so great about mirc. i've never used it... so kinda want to know.
 255 2010-11-29 05:34:55 <genjix> yep its just weird you have a problem with irc on linux
 256 2010-11-29 05:35:01 <andrew12> though there is CrossOver Games for Linux, but I'd still rather use windows for that
 257 2010-11-29 05:35:03 <genjix> nothing
 258 2010-11-29 05:35:10 <genjix> mirc is fairly typical irc program
 259 2010-11-29 05:35:20 <kiba> THERE are like
 260 2010-11-29 05:35:23 <andrew12> I just like not having to reboot just to play a game
 261 2010-11-29 05:35:23 <kiba> tons of IRC program
 262 2010-11-29 05:35:25 <andrew12> tbh
 263 2010-11-29 05:35:46 <andrew12> or use something that some of my windows friends are talking about
 264 2010-11-29 05:35:52 <nanotube> genjix: well, andrew12 seems to have something in mind as far as some stuff mirc does better than xchat... so i want to know what it is. maybe i'll write some plugins to do the missing features, if they are indeed missing, and said plugins don't already exist.
 265 2010-11-29 05:36:02 <kiba> on linux
 266 2010-11-29 05:36:07 <kiba> you get to use some badass things
 267 2010-11-29 05:36:10 <kiba> like XMONAD
 268 2010-11-29 05:36:16 <genjix> erm dont think you can beat irssi plugins
 269 2010-11-29 05:36:18 <xelister> genjix: dual boot is good for switch mode.  also some people run like 3d studio max for work, where sometiems blender can not be yet the substitute
 270 2010-11-29 05:36:21 <genjix> there's literally 100s of them
 271 2010-11-29 05:36:27 <kiba> Plus, I never click on icons to launch program anymore
 272 2010-11-29 05:36:31 <kiba> I just type and autocomplete
 273 2010-11-29 05:36:34 <andrew12> I know Linux is better. I like hacking it 'til it works how I want it to
 274 2010-11-29 05:36:38 <xelister> alt+f2 ftw
 275 2010-11-29 05:36:39 <kiba> so like chr, I launch chromium
 276 2010-11-29 05:36:45 <genjix> xelister: ok thats bs. i worked on a blender project and blender can do everything 3ds max can do
 277 2010-11-29 05:36:50 <andrew12> I was able to install Arch Linux onto an 8gb flash drive
 278 2010-11-29 05:36:57 <genjix> blender foundation project
 279 2010-11-29 05:37:02 <andrew12> I can plug it into any comp that can boot from usb and it works
 280 2010-11-29 05:37:23 <genjix> only reason to use 3ds max is if your company enforces it on you
 281 2010-11-29 05:37:27 <xelister> genjix: unless you work in 3d studio and every other 8 people use 3d studio max, and you bought speciall plugin for 3d smax to do some speciall stuff
 282 2010-11-29 05:37:29 <kiba> xmonad dmenu make me like a badass everyday
 283 2010-11-29 05:37:48 <kiba> It also make use of netbook less of a pain
 284 2010-11-29 05:37:53 <xelister> genjix: unless you want to put +3 months of unpaid time and be 2 months late with the project while recoding said custom plugin in python lol :P
 285 2010-11-29 05:37:53 <andrew12> unfortunately there's a lot of programs that require 3ds max
 286 2010-11-29 05:38:19 <genjix> or export to collade, import to 3ds, use said plugin
 287 2010-11-29 05:38:26 <xelister> and then loose 6 months debuggng and fixing it because the propertiary plugin worked other way
 288 2010-11-29 05:38:37 <xelister> and now everyone at work hates you for doing shit instead of working
 289 2010-11-29 05:38:46 redMBA has joined
 290 2010-11-29 05:39:00 <xelister> and all collegues leave you, except for one, that leaves with your wife (you got fired and don't get paid)
 291 2010-11-29 05:39:11 <andrew12> I wish I could get paid to argue with people.
 292 2010-11-29 05:39:16 <xelister> DOESNT LOOK LIKE SUCH A GOOD IDEA now does it?  lol :P
 293 2010-11-29 05:39:30 <genjix> blender > 3ds max
 294 2010-11-29 05:39:50 <genjix> new interface = best
 295 2010-11-29 05:39:54 <genjix> QED.
 296 2010-11-29 05:39:55 <xelister> genjix: sure, but if everyone in work uses 3ds max and you work togeather on a big project, you will have to use 3d s max too
 297 2010-11-29 05:40:08 <xelister> ofcourse there are many jobs that can be done 100% on linux. actually, most :)
 298 2010-11-29 05:40:16 <andrew12> yay linux!
 299 2010-11-29 05:40:21 <xelister> \o
 300 2010-11-29 05:40:35 <genjix> what is this linux you speak of?
 301 2010-11-29 05:40:36 <xelister> lets use BTCs to buy linus some beer
 302 2010-11-29 05:40:38 <xelister> and hookers
 303 2010-11-29 05:40:40 <genjix> some kind of virus?
 304 2010-11-29 05:40:41 <andrew12> I really do like Linux, I just can't get myself to use it full time.
 305 2010-11-29 05:40:55 <andrew12> I would if I could but I can't.
 306 2010-11-29 05:41:00 <xelister> andrew12: I use it full time for linux. Cant get myself now to use winshit. Perhaps for a second to lunch some game
 307 2010-11-29 05:41:05 <andrew12> also I need to build a new PC so I can use this PC as a server.
 308 2010-11-29 05:41:07 <xelister> although most gaming I do in windows
 309 2010-11-29 05:41:10 <xelister> although most gaming I do in linux
 310 2010-11-29 05:41:17 <andrew12> lol
 311 2010-11-29 05:41:18 <kiba> andrew12: so your employee force you to use expensive shit?
 312 2010-11-29 05:41:24 <andrew12> wat
 313 2010-11-29 05:41:30 * andrew12 is 12
 314 2010-11-29 05:41:33 <andrew12> derp if ailed
 315 2010-11-29 05:41:35 * andrew12 is 141
 316 2010-11-29 05:41:38 <kiba> 12 years old?
 317 2010-11-29 05:41:40 <andrew12> i'm 14
 318 2010-11-29 05:41:43 <andrew12> i'm tired
 319 2010-11-29 05:41:44 <andrew12> lol
 320 2010-11-29 05:41:53 <kiba> when I was your age, I learned to program
 321 2010-11-29 05:42:00 <andrew12> me too!
 322 2010-11-29 05:42:02 <andrew12> :P
 323 2010-11-29 05:42:10 <xelister> me too
 324 2010-11-29 05:42:19 <kiba> I think by age 15, I run exclusively linux
 325 2010-11-29 05:42:25 <xelister> exect I already programmed a bit for 3 years so you suck :P
 326 2010-11-29 05:42:26 <kiba> because of the arrival of broadband
 327 2010-11-29 05:42:28 <andrew12> how old are you guys?
 328 2010-11-29 05:42:33 <kiba> I am 19.
 329 2010-11-29 05:42:37 <xelister> Im old enough  >_>
 330 2010-11-29 05:42:40 <andrew12> lol
 331 2010-11-29 05:42:47 <nanotube> when i was your age, usa was still not bankrupt. :)
 332 2010-11-29 05:42:49 <genjix> 22
 333 2010-11-29 05:43:26 <nanotube> well, it's still not... but it sure is working on it.
 334 2010-11-29 05:43:32 <kiba> the older folks are probably hacking in startups and changing the world already, or maybe stuck in a cubicle
 335 2010-11-29 05:43:44 <kiba> let us not be the folks who are stuck in a cubicle and actually change the world
 336 2010-11-29 05:44:39 <genjix> i just want to do all my geek shit
 337 2010-11-29 05:44:42 <kiba> hmm. I earned 1.8 BTC today. Wee!
 338 2010-11-29 05:44:55 <genjix> live in a squat, hack free software, travel to mars
 339 2010-11-29 05:45:03 <genjix> tear down the state
 340 2010-11-29 05:45:10 <andrew12> I earned 20 thanks to a cool dude that likes to give away bitcoins :o
 341 2010-11-29 05:45:12 <kiba> that's called changing the world
 342 2010-11-29 05:45:20 <kiba> that's not earning, that's called giving
 343 2010-11-29 05:45:24 <andrew12> :p
 344 2010-11-29 05:45:37 <kiba> maybe we could recruit your friends into earning 3D artists
 345 2010-11-29 05:45:45 <andrew12> or you can just say "I got +20.00 Credit"
 346 2010-11-29 05:45:55 <kiba> bitcoin earning 3D artists
 347 2010-11-29 05:46:27 <kiba> for long term propsect, we should be targeting young folks
 348 2010-11-29 05:46:32 <kiba> investment*
 349 2010-11-29 05:46:40 <genjix> internet really does need micropayments
 350 2010-11-29 05:47:06 <genjix> cos its a huge wave of mediocre stuff stuffed with adverts
 351 2010-11-29 05:47:24 <andrew12> i need to find something I can do to get bitcoins other than generating blocks
 352 2010-11-29 05:47:26 <genjix> not to make people rich, just to support the creators
 353 2010-11-29 05:47:59 <kiba> genjix: will you support me?
 354 2010-11-29 05:48:09 <nanotube> andrew12: what are your skills?
 355 2010-11-29 05:48:11 <genjix> andrew12: if you make 1 million playmoney, i will pay $5 per million
 356 2010-11-29 05:48:16 <genjix> on pokerstars
 357 2010-11-29 05:48:34 <genjix> once you make the first million, its very easy to make more
 358 2010-11-29 05:48:37 <andrew12> I know Python, Perl, PHP, Ruby (kinda)
 359 2010-11-29 05:48:53 <andrew12> i dunno tbh :P
 360 2010-11-29 05:49:09 <andrew12> i guess "trololo i can make a site for youuuu
 361 2010-11-29 05:49:10 <andrew12> "
 362 2010-11-29 05:49:19 <kiba> I got a job offering that's 10 BTC. But that will increase over time as long as I find new funding.
 363 2010-11-29 05:49:26 <nanotube> well, coding is a useful skill. just recently some guy got a contract to code some php/mysql, on forums/marketplace
 364 2010-11-29 05:49:31 <genjix> $5 per million in bitcoins
 365 2010-11-29 05:49:40 <nanotube> kiba: what is it?
 366 2010-11-29 05:49:54 <kiba> nanotube: an association site
 367 2010-11-29 05:50:01 <kiba> for the BMAA
 368 2010-11-29 05:50:14 <nanotube> ah, well, andrew12 --^ :)
 369 2010-11-29 05:50:26 <kiba> so we can actually provide and track people for benefit
 370 2010-11-29 05:50:38 <kiba> and provide a host of other services
 371 2010-11-29 05:51:04 <andrew12> nanotube?
 372 2010-11-29 05:51:30 <kiba> nanotube: first, it had to be approved by democractic votes
 373 2010-11-29 05:51:36 <kiba> and some members are neglecting their duties
 374 2010-11-29 05:51:43 <kiba> well..not voting
 375 2010-11-29 05:51:47 <nanotube> andrew12: kiba wants someone to make a website for him. so ... you were looking for something to do for bitcoins... i put 2 and 2 together :)
 376 2010-11-29 05:52:02 <kiba> we're on 4 votes
 377 2010-11-29 05:52:16 <kiba> I think we need 1 more votes for it to pass
 378 2010-11-29 05:52:23 <andrew12> zomg
 379 2010-11-29 05:53:07 <kiba> it's only 10 BTC
 380 2010-11-29 05:53:27 <nanotube> hey, that's like $2.80 :)
 381 2010-11-29 05:53:29 <kiba> around the value of 2.8 dollars using .28 as exchange value
 382 2010-11-29 05:53:47 <kiba> andrew12 isn't that desperate
 383 2010-11-29 05:55:08 <kiba> even I work for more than that. 50 bucks was my first freelance assignmetn
 384 2010-11-29 05:55:17 <kiba> pay
 385 2010-11-29 05:56:32 <xelister> btw kiba how old are you
 386 2010-11-29 05:57:00 <kiba> I already told you, I am 19.
 387 2010-11-29 05:57:13 <andrew12> wait, if 10 BTC is $2.80 then isn't 50 like $10? so every time you generate a block you're getting $10
 388 2010-11-29 05:57:51 <theymos> And it'll probably be worth $100 in a few years.
 389 2010-11-29 05:58:10 <genjix> nah 100 is like $30
 390 2010-11-29 06:00:06 <genjix> http://translate.google.com/#de|de|pv%20zk%20pv%20pv%20zk%20pv%20zk%20kz%20zk%20pv%20pv%20pv%20zk%20pv%20zk%20zk%20pzk%20pzk%20pvzkpkzvpvzk%20kkkkkk%20bsch
 391 2010-11-29 06:00:09 <genjix> click listen
 392 2010-11-29 06:00:15 <genjix> what do you think of my tune
 393 2010-11-29 06:00:18 <kiba> andrew12: I doubt you have the money to put together a bitcoin mining rig
 394 2010-11-29 06:00:43 <andrew12> kiba: I dunno. $0 can go pretty far.
 395 2010-11-29 06:01:25 <kiba> you will have to wait a year until you find a block, probably
 396 2010-11-29 06:01:44 <andrew12> >500khash/s
 397 2010-11-29 06:02:58 <kiba> yep, probably a year or two
 398 2010-11-29 06:03:08 <kiba> I got 1325khash/s
 399 2010-11-29 06:03:16 <ArtForz> yep, thats pretty much nothing
 400 2010-11-29 06:03:51 <kiba> folks like ArtForz make sure that money doesn't grow on tree.
 401 2010-11-29 06:03:56 <andrew12> it goes lower sometimes
 402 2010-11-29 06:04:07 <kiba> lower -> lower chance
 403 2010-11-29 06:04:11 <andrew12> i know
 404 2010-11-29 06:04:12 <andrew12> lol
 405 2010-11-29 06:04:26 <ArtForz> doing 9 GHash/s, soon 15G
 406 2010-11-29 06:04:32 <kiba> you're 14 years old.
 407 2010-11-29 06:04:44 <andrew12> ArtForz: holy fuck
 408 2010-11-29 06:04:53 <kiba> I dare you to make it your goal to suprise your parents that you found a way to make money and it's worth 1000 dollars
 409 2010-11-29 06:04:55 <andrew12> how many BTC do you have?
 410 2010-11-29 06:05:04 <kiba> and you make 1000 dollars each week
 411 2010-11-29 06:05:08 <ArtForz> right now? about 35k
 412 2010-11-29 06:05:09 <kiba> by age 15
 413 2010-11-29 06:05:15 * andrew12 dies
 414 2010-11-29 06:05:28 <ArtForz> sold about 180kBTC so far
 415 2010-11-29 06:05:41 <nanotube> andrew12: he invested like 10k usd into the hardware, though. it wasn't 'free money'
 416 2010-11-29 06:05:52 <andrew12> kiba: "This machine litterally pays for itself!"
 417 2010-11-29 06:06:04 <ArtForz> closer to $20k now
 418 2010-11-29 06:06:11 <xelister> ArtForz: sell them on mtgox @ 0.5 plz =) or 0.4
 419 2010-11-29 06:06:15 <kiba> how many GPUs?
 420 2010-11-29 06:06:15 <nanotube> heh, even better. hehe.
 421 2010-11-29 06:06:17 <kiba> .28?
 422 2010-11-29 06:06:26 <kiba> 28?
 423 2010-11-29 06:06:27 <xelister> .28 is meh
 424 2010-11-29 06:06:29 <andrew12> you should send me some bitcoins cause i'm so cool
 425 2010-11-29 06:06:31 <ArtForz> 24 5970s
 426 2010-11-29 06:07:01 <kiba> you sell it on mtgox?
 427 2010-11-29 06:07:08 <ArtForz> mainly
 428 2010-11-29 06:07:16 <nanotube> ArtForz: what's one 5970 go for, and what's its hashrate?
 429 2010-11-29 06:07:43 <ArtForz> also selling on bcm from time to time, a lot less since mtgox satrted using LR$
 430 2010-11-29 06:08:01 <nanotube> probably also a lot less since bcm volume dropped to like 0
 431 2010-11-29 06:08:15 <ArtForz> 5970 = about $500, about 530Mh/s
 432 2010-11-29 06:08:24 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 530000
 433 2010-11-29 06:08:28 <ArtForz> closer to 680 when overclocked
 434 2010-11-29 06:08:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 530000 Khps, given current difficulty of 6866.89864897 , is 15 hours, 27 minutes, and 27 seconds
 435 2010-11-29 06:08:44 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 680000
 436 2010-11-29 06:08:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 680000 Khps, given current difficulty of 6866.89864897 , is 12 hours, 2 minutes, and 52 seconds
 437 2010-11-29 06:08:48 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 500
 438 2010-11-29 06:08:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 500 Khps, given current difficulty of 6866.89864897 , is 1 year, 45 weeks, 2 days, 17 hours, 3 minutes, and 30 seconds
 439 2010-11-29 06:08:55 <nanotube> andrew12: lol
 440 2010-11-29 06:08:58 <andrew12> -.-
 441 2010-11-29 06:09:38 <kiba> ;;bc,calc 1368
 442 2010-11-29 06:09:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1368 Khps, given current difficulty of 6866.89864897 , is 35 weeks, 4 days, 12 hours, 41 minutes, and 27 seconds
 443 2010-11-29 06:09:43 <nanotube> andrew12: so there's an exercise for you - run the numbers, and see whether investing $500 (plus possibly some other components, if you don't have a computer that'll take a 5970 as is) is worth it for bitcoin gen. :)
 444 2010-11-29 06:10:15 <kiba> or just sell your programming services on the market
 445 2010-11-29 06:11:01 <andrew12> what's a 5970?
 446 2010-11-29 06:11:10 <andrew12> a video card?
 447 2010-11-29 06:11:19 <andrew12> s/video/graphics/
 448 2010-11-29 06:11:21 <ArtForz> yep
 449 2010-11-29 06:11:43 <ArtForz> fastest graphics card ATI is producing
 450 2010-11-29 06:12:01 <kiba> how much does it cost?
 451 2010-11-29 06:12:14 <andrew12> b-b-but i thought nvidia was better than ati?
 452 2010-11-29 06:12:22 <ArtForz> about $500 currently
 453 2010-11-29 06:12:33 <kiba> 500 dollars + 500 dollars for...component
 454 2010-11-29 06:12:57 <andrew12> a lot of really good graphics cards are really expensive :P
 455 2010-11-29 06:13:05 <ArtForz> yep, factor in the rest of the system and it's about $900 per card
 456 2010-11-29 06:13:15 <kiba> forgettitaboutit
 457 2010-11-29 06:13:32 <kiba> so earn your money from programming and leave the mining to Art
 458 2010-11-29 06:13:32 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 459 2010-11-29 06:13:35 <kiba> Forz
 460 2010-11-29 06:13:36 <ArtForz> whoops, a bit less... forgot to subtract my 5770s
 461 2010-11-29 06:13:37 <andrew12> lol
 462 2010-11-29 06:13:59 <ArtForz> so... about $820 per card
 463 2010-11-29 06:14:25 <andrew12> ArtForz: about how long will it take for that card to pay for itself?
 464 2010-11-29 06:15:10 <ArtForz> at current difficulty and market prices ... about 4 months
 465 2010-11-29 06:15:26 <andrew12> hate
 466 2010-11-29 06:15:54 <kiba> you'll stop running it when winter come, ArtForz ?
 467 2010-11-29 06:16:02 <remmy_> But once you get one, 5 years.
 468 2010-11-29 06:16:06 <kiba> 4 months seem tostuck
 469 2010-11-29 06:16:20 <kiba> sucks
 470 2010-11-29 06:16:25 <theymos> ArtForz: If you had $100,000 to spend for a Bitcoin mining operation, would you stick with the 5770s or use some enterprise-grade solution?
 471 2010-11-29 06:16:33 <kiba> incentive for ArtForz to help close the gap
 472 2010-11-29 06:16:43 <andrew12> kiba: better than having to actually do work to earn it :P
 473 2010-11-29 06:16:48 <ArtForz> for large scale? 5970s
 474 2010-11-29 06:16:55 <kiba> andrew12: no, it's a risky investment
 475 2010-11-29 06:17:06 <kiba> incentive for ArtForz to help support the economy so it prop up the price of bitcoins
 476 2010-11-29 06:17:22 <kiba> plus, ArtForz have to optimize his mining rig
 477 2010-11-29 06:17:32 <ArtForz> of course it's a risky investment
 478 2010-11-29 06:17:34 <andrew12> ArtForz: how old are you?
 479 2010-11-29 06:17:53 <ArtForz> 39
 480 2010-11-29 06:18:02 <andrew12> oh ok
 481 2010-11-29 06:18:03 <andrew12> :p
 482 2010-11-29 06:18:12 <ArtForz> if difficulty keeps rising and market prices dont, there goes the profit margin
 483 2010-11-29 06:19:09 <kiba> as price get higher, the profit margin increase
 484 2010-11-29 06:19:12 <nanotube> ArtForz: well, in order for prices to keep up with difficulty, demand has to rise. so i guess it would be to your benefit to expend effort toward 'marketing' bitcoin.
 485 2010-11-29 06:19:13 <ArtForz> yep
 486 2010-11-29 06:19:22 <ArtForz> of course the disparity is still so large its actually profitable to run my cards on utility power even at $0.30/kWh
 487 2010-11-29 06:19:28 <kiba> so, if the bitcoin economy is growing, price will likely rise
 488 2010-11-29 06:19:32 <kiba> but it incentivize mining too
 489 2010-11-29 06:19:34 <ArtForz> yep
 490 2010-11-29 06:19:55 <ArtForz> I expect the price to rise a lot
 491 2010-11-29 06:20:01 <andrew12> i wonder if it would be possible to eventually have a full time job that paid you in bitcoins
 492 2010-11-29 06:20:19 <kiba> andrew12: if you help us grow, we might... So offer your programming services for bitcoins
 493 2010-11-29 06:20:22 <ArtForz> some day... probably
 494 2010-11-29 06:20:39 <andrew12> okay! what should I code for you? :o
 495 2010-11-29 06:20:57 <ArtForz> the current market prices are still awfully low when you think about it
 496 2010-11-29 06:21:20 <kiba> andrew12: go fish on the forum. There might be a guy who will offer you a higher reward than just 10 BTC
 497 2010-11-29 06:21:30 <OneFixt> ;;bc,estimate
 498 2010-11-29 06:21:31 <gribble> 7735.20283984
 499 2010-11-29 06:21:43 <kiba> ArtForz: why?
 500 2010-11-29 06:22:02 * jgarzik thinks it is within reason to consider a future 0.01 BTC as being worth a lot of money, if demand takes off
 501 2010-11-29 06:22:13 <ArtForz> 21M btc. ever. $0.28/btc ... $0.28/btc... 21M btc ever... expected total economic worth of <$6M
 502 2010-11-29 06:22:17 LobsterMan has joined
 503 2010-11-29 06:22:23 <ArtForz> copypasta fail
 504 2010-11-29 06:22:31 <andrew12> haha
 505 2010-11-29 06:22:35 <ArtForz> you get the idea
 506 2010-11-29 06:23:20 <nanotube> if the bitcoin economy expands to the size of say... ireland, which is about 171 billion usd gdp... we get multiple thousands of usd per btc.
 507 2010-11-29 06:23:38 <nanotube> just choosing ireland for... no good reason :D
 508 2010-11-29 06:24:11 <ArtForz> yep
 509 2010-11-29 06:24:12 <nanotube> ;;google calc 171 billion / 21 million
 510 2010-11-29 06:24:12 <gribble> 171 billion / 21 million = 8 142.85714
 511 2010-11-29 06:24:17 <andrew12> okay well i'm going to try to get some sleep
 512 2010-11-29 06:24:21 <jgarzik> just imagine 1,000,000 people who want to use bitcoin, in year 2016.
 513 2010-11-29 06:24:33 <jgarzik> with so few bitcoins in existence, a "little" is worth a "lot"
 514 2010-11-29 06:24:37 <andrew12> so I can actually wake up for school tomorrow
 515 2010-11-29 06:24:43 <nanotube> andrew12: hehe good luck :)
 516 2010-11-29 06:25:01 <jgarzik> so I can see 0.01 BTC being a lot of money
 517 2010-11-29 06:25:02 <andrew12> and I want my eyes to stop hurting
 518 2010-11-29 06:25:07 <andrew12> I didn't get any sleep last night either -.-
 519 2010-11-29 06:25:09 <ArtForz> which is exactly why I'm holding on to a % of my generated BTC ;)
 520 2010-11-29 06:25:19 <nanotube> jgarzik: also imagine bitcoin failing dramatically. just to keep the rosy dreams in check. :)
 521 2010-11-29 06:25:26 <ArtForz> if bitcoin fails... not much lost
 522 2010-11-29 06:25:40 <nanotube> ArtForz: yep, that's the reason you're selling some off :)
 523 2010-11-29 06:25:47 <nanotube> a little diversification goes a long way
 524 2010-11-29 06:25:51 <ArtForz> if it takes off there's my retirement fund ;)
 525 2010-11-29 06:26:04 <jgarzik> bitcoin is firmly in the "assume high risk, total meltdown" category today, sure.  :)
 526 2010-11-29 06:26:08 <ArtForz> yep
 527 2010-11-29 06:26:28 <nanotube> if it takes off, even my 1/10th or so of your btc holdings should be a nice retirement fund. :)
 528 2010-11-29 06:26:36 <ArtForz> but considering the potential "loss" is so small... imo a risk worth taking
 529 2010-11-29 06:27:24 <kiba> at some point, a stampede will spurt, and we'll be a bubble economy
 530 2010-11-29 06:27:30 <jgarzik> ubitio.us is cute.  not sure it will be successful, with so many free services out there, but it's cute.  0.02 BTC might be sufficient to avoid flashing ads and popups.
 531 2010-11-29 06:27:31 <kiba> for a little while
 532 2010-11-29 06:27:32 <nanotube> hey, has anyone placed an mtgox 'dark pool' order ?
 533 2010-11-29 06:27:40 <theymos> I can't see any cases where the value will go to 0 overnight. Something would have to be fundamentally flawed in Bitcoin's design -- something that can't be fixed and still maintain transaction history.
 534 2010-11-29 06:27:53 <jgarzik> nanotube: by some definitions, -otc is a dark pool :)
 535 2010-11-29 06:28:10 <nanotube> jgarzik: lol well, yes. :) that's why i said "mtgox dark pool", just to be specific :)
 536 2010-11-29 06:28:18 <ArtForz> imo a total bust is very unlikely
 537 2010-11-29 06:28:40 <kiba> there will be a wave of irrationality as people think bitcoins are investment
 538 2010-11-29 06:28:44 <nanotube> ArtForz: i'm thinking more of a concerted attack by a well-heeled entity
 539 2010-11-29 06:29:05 <kiba> we need to keep addressing security issues
 540 2010-11-29 06:29:09 <ArtForz> the basic idea and protocol is sound, we can always fix the network
 541 2010-11-29 06:29:54 <theymos> Transactions can even be moved over Tor or Freenet if necessary. We just need one free country for block generation.
 542 2010-11-29 06:30:10 <nanotube> ArtForz: say isp's are made to block all bitcoin traffic, through deep packet inspection... they also close down mtgox and any other exchanges, and bitcoin forums.
 543 2010-11-29 06:30:16 <ArtForz> imo main danger is getting banhammer'd by govts
 544 2010-11-29 06:30:30 <nanotube> ArtForz: right. a government is a /very/ well heeled entity. :)
 545 2010-11-29 06:30:42 <kiba> nanotube: open source exchanges...
 546 2010-11-29 06:30:49 <ArtForz> "if bitcoin is outlawed, only outlaws will use bitcoins"
 547 2010-11-29 06:31:17 <kiba> maybe a seastead will become successful and adopt bitcoin as a national currency
 548 2010-11-29 06:31:18 <kiba> lol
 549 2010-11-29 06:31:31 <theymos> I bet This Week In Computer Hardware would be interested in Bitcoin generation. Anyone want to write them? I don't know much about hardware. http://twit.tv/twich
 550 2010-11-29 06:31:39 <andrew12> someone highlight me again
 551 2010-11-29 06:31:49 <nanotube> but still, you can see how that would cause, at least for a time being, the price of bitcoins to drop. possibly to effectively zero, if there's no easy way to convert them to usd at all.
 552 2010-11-29 06:31:53 <nanotube> andrew12: ping
 553 2010-11-29 06:31:57 <andrew12> ty
 554 2010-11-29 06:32:05 * jgarzik votes for SSL.  You can still gather a lot based on timing, but fundamentally I'm a radical who thinks that most protocols should default to SSL just to make life more difficult in general for DPI and LE.
 555 2010-11-29 06:32:07 <nanotube> andrew12: that'll be 5 btc please :P haha
 556 2010-11-29 06:32:09 <andrew12> lol
 557 2010-11-29 06:32:20 <nanotube> jgarzik: i'm with you on that.
 558 2010-11-29 06:32:29 <ArtForz> yep
 559 2010-11-29 06:32:30 <theymos> nanotube: If that happens and the protocol has not been broken, I will buy all of the cheap bitcoins.
 560 2010-11-29 06:32:34 <kiba> jgarzik: so, any technical difficulty?
 561 2010-11-29 06:32:42 <kiba> challenge?
 562 2010-11-29 06:32:46 <nanotube> theymos: if you can get connected with people who are willing to sell. :)
 563 2010-11-29 06:33:02 <nanotube> kiba: i bet it's just 'satoshi hasn't gotten around to it'
 564 2010-11-29 06:33:06 <andrew12> is it even possible for bitcoin to die?
 565 2010-11-29 06:33:11 <kiba> Maybe I could sell little brother robots...
 566 2010-11-29 06:33:11 <ArtForz> we're also still missing a few features to make running a tor-only bitcoin possible
 567 2010-11-29 06:33:31 <theymos> Authentication is the problem with encrypted Bitcoin traffic. I think it could be solved reasonably well by including a public key with addr messages, but this is clearly not intended. I don't think it will ever be implemented.
 568 2010-11-29 06:34:06 <jgarzik> I think SSL is a problem on Windows.  ISTR gavina saying that, when the RPC-SSL stuff went in.
 569 2010-11-29 06:34:15 <jgarzik> something about the libs being a PITA.
 570 2010-11-29 06:34:36 <ArtForz> yep, but then you can just include them in the distribution
 571 2010-11-29 06:35:38 <ArtForz> afaict only thing we're really missing for proper tor hidden servicce support is socks4a support and some kind of .onion addr message
 572 2010-11-29 06:35:46 <andrew12> omg
 573 2010-11-29 06:35:55 <nanotube> theymos: well, there's no kind of authentication /right now/, so would we be losing anything by going with ssl without auth?
 574 2010-11-29 06:35:59 <kiba> go to sleep, youngling
 575 2010-11-29 06:36:06 <andrew12> someone should make a DRM-free music service that uses bittorrent
 576 2010-11-29 06:36:17 <andrew12> kiba: :p
 577 2010-11-29 06:36:18 <nanotube> andrew12: it's called the pirate bay :P
 578 2010-11-29 06:36:25 <ArtForz> hehehe
 579 2010-11-29 06:36:26 <genjix> like bittorrent? :p
 580 2010-11-29 06:36:31 <andrew12> nanotube: i mean people actually pay for the music
 581 2010-11-29 06:36:36 <andrew12> but yeah you're right
 582 2010-11-29 06:36:39 <andrew12> heh
 583 2010-11-29 06:36:42 * andrew12 dies
 584 2010-11-29 06:36:46 <kiba> there are no bitcoin musician that I know of?
 585 2010-11-29 06:36:47 <jgarzik> yeah, I think anonymous SSL is fine if the goal is a simple traffic shroud
 586 2010-11-29 06:36:51 <theymos> nanotube: Encryption without authentication is basically just obfuscation. It would be a waste of development time.
 587 2010-11-29 06:36:57 <kiba> bitcoin musicans
 588 2010-11-29 06:37:14 <andrew12> I mean, it would be cool if there were an iTunes that used bitcoin and bittorrent
 589 2010-11-29 06:37:20 <kiba> A bitcoin theme song!
 590 2010-11-29 06:37:25 <andrew12> rather than downloading everything from a master server
 591 2010-11-29 06:37:38 <andrew12> maybe even pay you for seeding? lol
 592 2010-11-29 06:37:53 <kiba> with satoshi and bernanke as stars
 593 2010-11-29 06:38:03 <nanotube> theymos: all we're trying to do is make dpi hard. after all, an isp can get a copy of bitcoin with the keys, and authenticate as well.
 594 2010-11-29 06:38:25 <ColonelPanic> my gpu miner no longer works :(
 595 2010-11-29 06:38:26 <nanotube> given the anonymous p2p nature of the network, i don't see if authentication gives us anything?
 596 2010-11-29 06:38:34 <ArtForz> I dont think so
 597 2010-11-29 06:38:59 <ArtForz> not to mention MITMing unauthed ssl is trivial
 598 2010-11-29 06:39:26 <theymos> nanotube: The seednodes would have built-in public keys, and would be the source of authority for the network. Like Tor directory servers.
 599 2010-11-29 06:39:52 <nanotube> hmm well, who are the 'seednodes', exactly, then?
 600 2010-11-29 06:40:03 <nanotube> how hard would it be for a govt to 'become a seednode' ?
 601 2010-11-29 06:40:10 <jgarzik> weird.  block download went fairly rapidly from 1 - 82000.  then it stopped, and does not appear to be continuing.
 602 2010-11-29 06:40:13 <andrew12> re: an isp can get a copy of bitcoin with the keys...: this is why you use tor
 603 2010-11-29 06:41:08 <andrew12> ping?
 604 2010-11-29 06:41:56 <nanotube> andrew12: pong. guess people are looking at other stuff, and/or thinking.
 605 2010-11-29 06:42:00 <kiba> how would it protect us from government sniffing out block history?
 606 2010-11-29 06:42:02 <nanotube> andrew12: and you should be going to sleep.
 607 2010-11-29 06:42:08 <andrew12> i should
 608 2010-11-29 06:42:11 <theymos> nanotube: There are seednodes hardcoded into Bitcoin (I'm one). If they are not completely trusted, you would ask several of them for the same key and compare results. Tor and I2P do authentication like this. I wonder how Freenet does it.
 609 2010-11-29 06:42:12 <andrew12> but that's easier said than done
 610 2010-11-29 06:42:14 <andrew12> brb
 611 2010-11-29 06:43:04 <nanotube> theymos: ah those seednodes. i see. well, i haven't looked very deep into how tor/i2p/freenet do things... but i suppose it's a good bet that there are things we can learn from them.
 612 2010-11-29 06:43:10 <kiba> I heard you can forget the transaction history somehow?
 613 2010-11-29 06:43:17 * jgarzik speculates that the client does not do an adequate job of polling -multiple- clients for their knowledge of the block database.  I bet my download hit a client who doesn't have beyond block 82000, and bitcoin gave up rather than look at other hosts for block 82001.
 614 2010-11-29 06:43:33 remmy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 615 2010-11-29 06:43:39 <theymos> jgarzik: I think it only asks the first peer.
 616 2010-11-29 06:43:55 <kiba> I only wish I have cryptographic knowledge to help with the bitcoin effort
 617 2010-11-29 06:44:01 <jgarzik> bitcoin should be requesting blocks from multiple peers, and measuring the download speed
 618 2010-11-29 06:44:12 <jgarzik> pick best peer through observation.  P2P 101.
 619 2010-11-29 06:44:15 <kiba> development, er
 620 2010-11-29 06:44:17 <nanotube> jgarzik: time for another patch? :)
 621 2010-11-29 06:44:28 <nanotube> kiba: you have plenty of time to learn.
 622 2010-11-29 06:45:35 <theymos> kiba: Spent transactions that were spent like 5000+ blocks ago can be forgotten from the block chain, as they will no longer be needed for verification.
 623 2010-11-29 06:45:48 * jgarzik is preparing baseline comparisons for the "-readblocks $FILE" patch I'm working on.
 624 2010-11-29 06:46:09 andrew12_ has joined
 625 2010-11-29 06:46:15 <jgarzik> but the P2P block download is so bad, it's tough to get even a complete download at this point.  And I've got fibre-to-the-curb from AT&T, so it's not a grotty network.
 626 2010-11-29 06:46:21 <andrew12_> the inevitable router kick after changing settings
 627 2010-11-29 06:46:26 andrew12 has quit (Disconnected by services)
 628 2010-11-29 06:46:30 andrew12_ is now known as andrew12
 629 2010-11-29 06:46:44 <xelister> woot found a code-style bug in bitcoind
 630 2010-11-29 06:46:46 <andrew12> anyways apparently port 8333 wasn't forwarded. it is now.
 631 2010-11-29 06:46:51 <xelister> making bitcoin not fully portable
 632 2010-11-29 06:47:15 <jgarzik> xelister: it's widely known bitcoin is not very portable :)  the attitude towards big endian machines is downright hostile :(
 633 2010-11-29 06:47:16 <nanotube> andrew12: what time zone are you in?
 634 2010-11-29 06:47:20 <andrew12> est
 635 2010-11-29 06:47:23 <xelister> Satoshi uses boost's ::detail in util.cpp making therefore bitcoind not crossbuildable
 636 2010-11-29 06:47:28 <andrew12> it's 1:40am
 637 2010-11-29 06:47:39 <xelister> jgarzik: I fixed it \o/  (I -> I + dudes from 5 chans on irc ;)
 638 2010-11-29 06:47:41 <nanotube> andrew12: then you better get the fsck to sleep if you want to be awake tomorrow at school.
 639 2010-11-29 06:47:48 <xelister> now bitcoind can be crossbuilded \o/
 640 2010-11-29 06:47:57 <andrew12> okay okay fine
 641 2010-11-29 06:48:01 <andrew12> i'll _try_
 642 2010-11-29 06:48:01 <andrew12> :p
 643 2010-11-29 06:48:03 <xelister> making bitcoind.exe on linux without touching winshit
 644 2010-11-29 06:48:12 <xelister> just after 8 hours of f'king with it :{
 645 2010-11-29 06:48:14 <xelister> \o\
 646 2010-11-29 06:48:16 <xelister>  /o/
 647 2010-11-29 06:48:18 <xelister> \o/
 648 2010-11-29 06:48:21 <jgarzik> xelister: I thought makefile.mingw covered that?
 649 2010-11-29 06:48:36 <xelister> no, it was compiler not crosscompiler
 650 2010-11-29 06:48:44 <xelister> also, still you need to build at least 3 libs
 651 2010-11-29 06:48:46 <xelister> crossbuild
 652 2010-11-29 06:49:04 <andrew12> why the hell am i shaking
 653 2010-11-29 06:49:06 <xelister> well still didnt test it but at least the   bitcoind.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit  is building
 654 2010-11-29 06:50:16 <xelister> anyway, Satoshi did done goofed with this boost ::detail thing :<
 655 2010-11-29 06:50:26 <xelister> load config file function should be rewritten. well its just 10 lines
 656 2010-11-29 06:50:48 <nanotube> xelister: so submit a patch.
 657 2010-11-29 06:51:03 <andrew12> Everybody wins!
 658 2010-11-29 06:51:32 <xelister> not sure yet how to code it, didnt used that part of boost.  but hopefully
 659 2010-11-29 06:53:06 <kiba> Rhorning make a reallllllllllllly long post.
 660 2010-11-29 06:53:27 <theymos> All of his posts are long.
 661 2010-11-29 06:54:32 <theymos> I've seen several people with this style: they write a godawful amount of text, but I walk away gaining hardly any information.
 662 2010-11-29 06:55:33 <kiba> his post is not new.
 663 2010-11-29 06:55:42 <kiba> I didn't gained any new information.
 664 2010-11-29 06:55:48 <andrew12> Quantity does not result in quality!
 665 2010-11-29 06:55:55 <xelister> lt;dr
 666 2010-11-29 06:55:58 <kiba> because a thousand people already say the same shit already
 667 2010-11-29 06:56:05 <kiba> andrew12: go to sleep
 668 2010-11-29 06:56:15 <andrew12> easier said than done :*
 669 2010-11-29 06:56:17 <andrew12> easier said than done :(
 670 2010-11-29 06:56:27 <kiba> DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT
 671 2010-11-29 06:56:36 <andrew12> fine i'll try
 672 2010-11-29 06:56:56 <kiba> TURN OFF THE COMPUTER
 673 2010-11-29 06:57:08 <xelister> leave the miner on
 674 2010-11-29 07:02:27 kiba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 675 2010-11-29 07:06:58 <xelister> where exactly do windwos user create their bitcoin.conf file?
 676 2010-11-29 07:07:10 <xelister> is it RoamingApps something
 677 2010-11-29 07:07:26 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 678 2010-11-29 07:07:34 <xelister> doh, its in faq.
 679 2010-11-29 07:10:26 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 680 2010-11-29 08:08:16 AAA_awright_ has joined
 681 2010-11-29 08:10:33 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 682 2010-11-29 08:10:46 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
 683 2010-11-29 08:43:11 sgtstein has joined
 684 2010-11-29 08:51:05 Diablo-D3 has joined
 685 2010-11-29 09:17:06 <jgarzik> With -initblocks, bitcoin will import, verify, index and store each block in this file, thus making it acceptable to obtain from untrusted sources.
 686 2010-11-29 09:17:07 <jgarzik> http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-initblocks
 687 2010-11-29 09:56:01 Zarutian has joined
 688 2010-11-29 09:58:22 noagendamarket has joined
 689 2010-11-29 09:58:58 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
 690 2010-11-29 09:58:58 noagendamarket has joined
 691 2010-11-29 10:05:50 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,estimate
 692 2010-11-29 10:05:51 <gribble> 7751.53682470
 693 2010-11-29 10:06:45 <Diablo-D3> man what the fuck
 694 2010-11-29 10:06:54 <Diablo-D3> rocketdock
 695 2010-11-29 10:07:11 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck would anyone write that for windows
 696 2010-11-29 10:13:08 <Diablo-D3> http://www.glx-dock.org/
 697 2010-11-29 10:13:11 <Diablo-D3> seriously?!
 698 2010-11-29 10:54:01 a_meteorite has joined
 699 2010-11-29 10:57:35 edcba has joined
 700 2010-11-29 11:22:17 <xelister> Diablo-D3: your latest miner still sucks
 701 2010-11-29 11:22:31 <xelister> Diablo-D3: 2nd time it was left alone, it again dropped to 470 M
 702 2010-11-29 11:22:54 <xelister> and the kernel-is-locked code did not triggered restart (I guess it only dtects actually locksup)
 703 2010-11-29 11:23:47 RazielZ has joined
 704 2010-11-29 11:36:34 <xelister> how to see how much generated blocks are in the wait period (20h) before becoming 50 btc on your ballance
 705 2010-11-29 11:50:34 <Diablo-D3> xelister: you know what
 706 2010-11-29 11:50:36 <Diablo-D3> go fuck yourself
 707 2010-11-29 11:50:43 <xelister> >_>
 708 2010-11-29 11:51:01 <Diablo-D3> if you have a fucking local issue, MY MINER CANT FIX IT
 709 2010-11-29 11:51:08 <Diablo-D3> its not God
 710 2010-11-29 11:51:19 <Diablo-D3> it cant wave its fucking magical hands to fix whatever you've fucked up
 711 2010-11-29 11:51:25 <xelister> hm?
 712 2010-11-29 11:51:30 <Diablo-D3> and that 30 second hash o meter you pestered the fuck out of me to implement?
 713 2010-11-29 11:51:33 <Diablo-D3> its now even MORE reactive
 714 2010-11-29 11:51:46 <xelister> the miner just slows down, probably gradually, over some hours it was left alone
 715 2010-11-29 11:51:48 <Diablo-D3> scroll in firefox? the hash o meter plummits
 716 2010-11-29 11:52:08 <Diablo-D3> xelister: probably because your fucking video card is overheating and its trying to save itself
 717 2010-11-29 11:52:11 <xelister> computer was idle during this 4 hours
 718 2010-11-29 11:53:33 <Diablo-D3> so what
 719 2010-11-29 11:53:34 <xelister> hmm you think? there is plenty space in the box, ambient temp 22 C, now (after 20 second pause while restarting miner) 85.5/84.5 C cores temp
 720 2010-11-29 11:53:40 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 721 2010-11-29 11:53:46 <Diablo-D3> thats waaaay over 75 dude
 722 2010-11-29 11:54:07 <xelister> well the card instantly goes to 85, its not even o.c.
 723 2010-11-29 11:54:36 <Diablo-D3> dont you have a powercolor card?
 724 2010-11-29 11:54:41 <xelister> who says 75 is limit for radeon internal temp?  5770 afair also was going in that region quickly
 725 2010-11-29 11:54:49 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hey you
 726 2010-11-29 11:54:59 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: whats the panic temp for radeon 5xxxes?
 727 2010-11-29 12:00:26 <xelister> Diablo-D3: you are 100% sure recent version correctly mines? I got several blocks in miner yesterday, and now still no increase in my ballance
 728 2010-11-29 12:00:47 <xelister> so... how to see how much generated blocks are in the wait period (20h) before becoming 50 btc on your ballance
 729 2010-11-29 12:01:35 <Diablo-D3> yes, it mines correctly
 730 2010-11-29 12:01:40 <Diablo-D3> xelister: look at the UI
 731 2010-11-29 12:02:03 <Diablo-D3> xelister: btw, if your card IS overheating, then who knows whats happening
 732 2010-11-29 12:03:14 slush_cz has joined
 733 2010-11-29 12:03:52 <xelister> "The Radeon HD 5970 maxed out at 86C. The fan on the Radeon HD 5970 video card was left on auto during temperature testing and the fan speed is dynamic."
 734 2010-11-29 12:03:55 <xelister> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1141/11/
 735 2010-11-29 12:04:26 <Diablo-D3> xelister: that means absolutely nothing.
 736 2010-11-29 12:08:18 <xelister> under linux how to see exact temp?
 737 2010-11-29 12:08:38 <Diablo-D3> um
 738 2010-11-29 12:08:48 <xelister> vrm
 739 2010-11-29 12:09:16 <Diablo-D3> aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt
 740 2010-11-29 12:09:17 <Diablo-D3> I think
 741 2010-11-29 12:09:18 <xelister> "we ultimately found that 70% fan speed was enough to keep our hottest bank of VRMs below the threshold, stabilizing at 116C."
 742 2010-11-29 12:09:35 <xelister> yeah but that shows 2 metters, is  there more info (or did they plugged in own thermo?)
 743 2010-11-29 12:09:37 <xelister> http://www.anandtech.com/show/3590
 744 2010-11-29 12:09:45 <Diablo-D3> they plugged their own in
 745 2010-11-29 12:09:51 <Diablo-D3> cards dont have ram temps yet
 746 2010-11-29 12:09:52 <xelister> faggots :{
 747 2010-11-29 12:10:05 <xelister> anyway, miners shoul not stress gpu's mem
 748 2010-11-29 12:10:13 <Diablo-D3> they DO make ram chips with temps, but not anything outside mil/enterprise spec super shit
 749 2010-11-29 12:10:17 <Diablo-D3> they dont
 750 2010-11-29 12:10:23 <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt be an issue here
 751 2010-11-29 12:10:32 <Diablo-D3> as long as they're kept within the realm of cool enough
 752 2010-11-29 12:10:42 <xelister> I dont think its overheating
 753 2010-11-29 12:10:49 <Diablo-D3>  aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt
 754 2010-11-29 12:10:50 <xelister> my card just goes to 85.5 and stays there
 755 2010-11-29 12:10:54 <xelister> yeah I usee that ofcource
 756 2010-11-29 12:10:58 <ArtForz> btw, those VRMs do have digital temp readouts
 757 2010-11-29 12:10:59 <Diablo-D3> thats the line
 758 2010-11-29 12:11:06 <Diablo-D3> Adapter 0 - ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series
 759 2010-11-29 12:11:06 <Diablo-D3>             Sensor 0: Temperature - 65.00 C
 760 2010-11-29 12:11:09 <xelister> and yet after few hours it slows down
 761 2010-11-29 12:11:11 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: they do? since when?
 762 2010-11-29 12:11:15 <ArtForz> theres just no way tzo access that info from linux
 763 2010-11-29 12:11:21 <ArtForz> 5970s had them forever
 764 2010-11-29 12:11:22 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, xelister's shit is slowing down after he gets past 85c. Is it throttling?
 765 2010-11-29 12:11:32 <ArtForz> all volterra VRMs have temp monitoring
 766 2010-11-29 12:11:33 <xelister> actually, so far both time it slowed down <500M it was when machine was left totally alone.   (no, im not usin 3d screensaver ;)
 767 2010-11-29 12:11:38 <ArtForz> probably
 768 2010-11-29 12:11:43 <Diablo-D3> good
 769 2010-11-29 12:11:46 <Diablo-D3> then its not my fucking miner
 770 2010-11-29 12:11:47 <ArtForz> stock or overvolted?
 771 2010-11-29 12:11:49 <Diablo-D3> xelister: fuck off.
 772 2010-11-29 12:12:00 <Diablo-D3> xelister: and buy a fucking fan you douche
 773 2010-11-29 12:12:16 <xelister> Diablo-D3: but this temperature is normal
 774 2010-11-29 12:12:18 <xelister> is it?
 775 2010-11-29 12:12:21 <Diablo-D3> hell no
 776 2010-11-29 12:12:23 <xelister> ArtForz: what temps you have on 5970's ?
 777 2010-11-29 12:12:39 <Diablo-D3> anything over 65 for extended periods on anything ever can lead to very short operation lives
 778 2010-11-29 12:12:49 <ArtForz> hottest is 80°C core, and that card is constantly on the verge of throttling
 779 2010-11-29 12:12:50 <Diablo-D3> anything over 85 for most chips is somewhat fatal
 780 2010-11-29 12:13:01 <Diablo-D3> and there are chips where its 75
 781 2010-11-29 12:13:03 <xelister> well, what fan?
 782 2010-11-29 12:13:08 <ArtForz> afaik for AMD GPUs long term > 85°C = bad
 783 2010-11-29 12:13:19 <xelister> 5970 comes in a box, there is plenty of space inside the PC's tower... what to do then
 784 2010-11-29 12:13:25 <ArtForz> short term up to 100°C are ok
 785 2010-11-29 12:13:29 <Diablo-D3> chips themselves tend to start frying at >85 for extended periods
 786 2010-11-29 12:13:38 <xelister> I could open the window with -1 C outside, but not long term solution
 787 2010-11-29 12:13:43 <ArtForz> the silicon can handle 100°C fine
 788 2010-11-29 12:14:01 <ArtForz> the problem is the bonding between silicon and package
 789 2010-11-29 12:14:02 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, but its everything else that cant
 790 2010-11-29 12:14:05 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 791 2010-11-29 12:14:23 <ArtForz> = what caused nvidia bumpgate
 792 2010-11-29 12:14:26 <Diablo-D3> xelister: you could always take the card body off  and point a high speed 120mm fan straight at it
 793 2010-11-29 12:14:27 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: no
 794 2010-11-29 12:14:33 <ArtForz> they used a underfill that would lose strength > 75°C
 795 2010-11-29 12:14:38 <Diablo-D3> what caused nvidia bumpgate was mismanagement
 796 2010-11-29 12:14:41 <Diablo-D3> AND
 797 2010-11-29 12:14:44 <Diablo-D3> AAAND
 798 2010-11-29 12:14:54 <Diablo-D3> cards that never reached above 65 in their entire lives
 799 2010-11-29 12:14:55 <Diablo-D3> died
 800 2010-11-29 12:15:05 <ArtForz> not here
 801 2010-11-29 12:15:07 <Diablo-D3> someone proved that under scientific conditions
 802 2010-11-29 12:15:22 <Diablo-D3> kept them icy cool and they died in a few months
 803 2010-11-29 12:15:24 <xelister> that remind me.  Can anyone (service? shop?) tell how card was used (o.c.'d? max temp?)
 804 2010-11-29 12:15:38 <Diablo-D3> xelister: _you_ cant
 805 2010-11-29 12:15:41 <Diablo-D3> AMD and vendors can
 806 2010-11-29 12:15:52 <ArtForz> about 90% of dead/dying nvidias I see are mobile GPUs
 807 2010-11-29 12:16:07 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes, thats just because nvidia lies about the TDP
 808 2010-11-29 12:16:10 <Diablo-D3> and the manufs dont care
 809 2010-11-29 12:16:16 <xelister> my point is, I'm /NOT/ o.c.ing this card, so I dont want anyone to say "well it probably died because you o.c. - fu no warranty" etc
 810 2010-11-29 12:16:28 <Diablo-D3> xelister: no, it died due to improper cooling
 811 2010-11-29 12:16:36 <Diablo-D3> cards are NOT designed for 24/7 maximum rape usage
 812 2010-11-29 12:16:38 <ArtForz> anyways, have you seen my recent prototype quad 5970 case?
 813 2010-11-29 12:16:44 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: url
 814 2010-11-29 12:16:51 <ArtForz> http://bayimg.com/KAAeaaAdp
 815 2010-11-29 12:16:52 <xelister> Diablo-D3: I dont see no warning labels about this ;)
 816 2010-11-29 12:17:03 <Diablo-D3> xelister: common sense is the fucking warning label
 817 2010-11-29 12:17:27 <ArtForz> built in ~3h from some scrap boards I had around to see if the CAD drawings are ok
 818 2010-11-29 12:17:39 <Diablo-D3> and the warranty probably said unintended usage is not covered by warranty
 819 2010-11-29 12:17:40 <xelister> Diablo-D3: what? that is bullshit. I expect in example CPU to work under 100% load 24/7 for years.
 820 2010-11-29 12:17:47 <xelister> why should gpu be different
 821 2010-11-29 12:17:48 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt need to list what they consider unintended.
 822 2010-11-29 12:17:56 <xelister> will radeon 5970 throll itself if overheating? in hardware
 823 2010-11-29 12:18:01 <Diablo-D3> xelister: a consumer cpu with a stock cooler? LOL
 824 2010-11-29 12:18:20 <xelister> Diablo-D3: yes
 825 2010-11-29 12:18:22 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahaha
 826 2010-11-29 12:18:23 <Diablo-D3> never.
 827 2010-11-29 12:19:35 <Diablo-D3> why do you think I have an extra wide case designed with efficient cooling in mind, and two gigantic third party coolers?
 828 2010-11-29 12:19:40 <ArtForz> and yep, thats cutouts for 3 120x38mm ultra kaze 3ks
 829 2010-11-29 12:20:17 <ArtForz> which should be enough to keep the cards in mid-70s at 70% fan speed
 830 2010-11-29 12:20:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hrm
 831 2010-11-29 12:20:28 <xelister> well hmm how to install any such coolers?
 832 2010-11-29 12:20:34 <Diablo-D3> xelister: just like the stock ones.
 833 2010-11-29 12:20:40 <ArtForz> forget 3rd party air on 5970
 834 2010-11-29 12:20:40 <xelister> its a single 5970 on short mobo in full tower box
 835 2010-11-29 12:20:49 <Diablo-D3> yeah, 5970s cant be redone
 836 2010-11-29 12:20:59 <Diablo-D3> single gpus of all kind can
 837 2010-11-29 12:21:02 <ArtForz> well, not unless you go water
 838 2010-11-29 12:21:11 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, but thats a different conversation altogether
 839 2010-11-29 12:21:14 <ArtForz> most 5970 waterblocks are decent
 840 2010-11-29 12:21:23 <xelister> water cooling would be good?
 841 2010-11-29 12:21:27 <ArtForz> the stock cooler is noisy but works decently with some external help
 842 2010-11-29 12:21:32 <Diablo-D3> I dont think water cooling is really acceptable for consumer gear
 843 2010-11-29 12:21:34 <xelister> but then do I have to dissassmble to 5970 box??
 844 2010-11-29 12:21:42 <ArtForz> the AC accelero is utter crap
 845 2010-11-29 12:21:45 <Diablo-D3> xelister: dont bother putting third party HSFs on 5970s
 846 2010-11-29 12:21:49 <Diablo-D3> xelister: not worth it
 847 2010-11-29 12:21:59 <xelister> HSF ?
 848 2010-11-29 12:22:05 <ArtForz> heat sink / fan
 849 2010-11-29 12:22:15 <Diablo-D3> that reminds me
 850 2010-11-29 12:22:28 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: did they change the mounting brackets on 5/6xxx?
 851 2010-11-29 12:22:35 <ArtForz> ?
 852 2010-11-29 12:22:47 <Diablo-D3> will the cooler on my 4xxx still fit
 853 2010-11-29 12:22:51 <ArtForz> it should
 854 2010-11-29 12:22:52 <Diablo-D3> I dont wanna have to buy a new one
 855 2010-11-29 12:23:01 <ArtForz> doesnt look like they changed the hole spacing
 856 2010-11-29 12:23:04 <Diablo-D3> good
 857 2010-11-29 12:23:22 <Diablo-D3> Ill have to buy a new set of vram heatsinks though
 858 2010-11-29 12:23:35 <ArtForz> probably also some kind of VRM cooling
 859 2010-11-29 12:23:48 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 860 2010-11-29 12:23:51 <Diablo-D3> maybe I'll just buy a new one
 861 2010-11-29 12:24:06 <ArtForz> I kinda like the stock HSF on 5850
 862 2010-11-29 12:24:38 <Diablo-D3> which models come with stock vapor coolers?
 863 2010-11-29 12:24:42 <ArtForz> 5970
 864 2010-11-29 12:24:55 <ArtForz> afair that's it
 865 2010-11-29 12:24:58 <Diablo-D3> damn.
 866 2010-11-29 12:25:16 <ArtForz> I think 5850/5870 is a heatpipe design
 867 2010-11-29 12:25:21 <Diablo-D3> I should replace my heatsinks anyhow
 868 2010-11-29 12:25:23 <ArtForz> and 5830 of course
 869 2010-11-29 12:25:29 <Diablo-D3> maybe put some giant copper ones on
 870 2010-11-29 12:25:44 <ArtForz> 68xx coolers are imo worse than 58xx
 871 2010-11-29 12:26:13 <ArtForz> they use a smaller fan on 68xx
 872 2010-11-29 12:26:27 <ArtForz> 58xx/59xx all have the same fan
 873 2010-11-29 12:26:57 <ArtForz> and 5850 has pretty much the same cooler as 5830 and 5870
 874 2010-11-29 12:27:29 <ArtForz> = it's a pretty oversized HSF
 875 2010-11-29 12:27:44 <Diablo-D3> hrrrrm
 876 2010-11-29 12:27:45 sgtstein has left ()
 877 2010-11-29 12:28:00 <Diablo-D3> http://thermalright.com/products/index.php?act=data&cat_id=30&id=164
 878 2010-11-29 12:28:03 <Diablo-D3> holy mother of god
 879 2010-11-29 12:28:52 <ArtForz> guess they had spare heatpipes :P
 880 2010-11-29 12:29:39 <xelister> it should include a lowrider mode
 881 2010-11-29 12:31:12 <ArtForz> http://thermalright.com/products/index.php?act=data&cat_id=30&id=93
 882 2010-11-29 12:31:56 <Diablo-D3> yeah, how the fuck is that supposed to work
 883 2010-11-29 12:32:06 <Diablo-D3> thats only useful if you have a short cpu hsf
 884 2010-11-29 12:32:09 <Diablo-D3> and it'll sit under that
 885 2010-11-29 12:32:14 <ArtForz> ?
 886 2010-11-29 12:32:15 <Diablo-D3> because thats tall enough to clear the card and go over
 887 2010-11-29 12:32:21 <ArtForz> yep
 888 2010-11-29 12:32:48 altamic has joined
 889 2010-11-29 12:32:54 <Diablo-D3> you do know how mines setup, right?
 890 2010-11-29 12:33:02 <ArtForz> yep
 891 2010-11-29 12:33:05 <Diablo-D3> http://thermalright.com/products/index.php?act=data&cat_id=30&id=111
 892 2010-11-29 12:33:11 <altamic> hello folks
 893 2010-11-29 12:33:12 <Diablo-D3> flipped over, crammed into cpu cooling stack
 894 2010-11-29 12:33:16 <Diablo-D3> shunts out the top of the case
 895 2010-11-29 12:33:36 <ArtForz> dunno, I just kinda like the 90° designs
 896 2010-11-29 12:33:50 <ArtForz> way easier to get decent airflow through/around the fin area
 897 2010-11-29 12:34:01 <Diablo-D3> yeah, so this would sit comfortably over a stock cpu hsf
 898 2010-11-29 12:34:07 <ArtForz> yep
 899 2010-11-29 12:34:57 <ArtForz> afair you can also install em the other way around
 900 2010-11-29 12:35:08 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 901 2010-11-29 12:35:12 <Diablo-D3> its a double sided pad like mine is
 902 2010-11-29 12:35:31 bertodsera has joined
 903 2010-11-29 12:35:34 <ArtForz> which is kinda useful if you only have 1 GPU and a bunch of lower cards
 904 2010-11-29 12:36:42 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: not quite
 905 2010-11-29 12:36:48 <Diablo-D3> you'd have to vent it somehow
 906 2010-11-29 12:36:58 <Diablo-D3> most cases suck at venting without extra fans
 907 2010-11-29 12:37:11 slush_cz has left ()
 908 2010-11-29 12:37:38 <ArtForz> dont most cases have a side panel grill in the card area nowadays?
 909 2010-11-29 12:38:31 <Diablo-D3> those are over the cpu
 910 2010-11-29 12:38:35 <Diablo-D3> which is actually retarded
 911 2010-11-29 12:38:38 <Diablo-D3> the p180b does it better
 912 2010-11-29 12:38:47 <Diablo-D3> the vent is in the top of the case
 913 2010-11-29 12:38:50 <Diablo-D3> and blows straight up
 914 2010-11-29 12:39:01 <ArtForz> nope, actually a lot of cases have grills in the CPU *and* card area
 915 2010-11-29 12:39:13 <Diablo-D3> Ive never seen a case with a grill near the card
 916 2010-11-29 12:39:14 <Diablo-D3> thats useless
 917 2010-11-29 12:39:46 <ArtForz> actually it works pretty decently for non-exhausting designs
 918 2010-11-29 12:39:58 <Diablo-D3> might as well just orient cards flat
 919 2010-11-29 12:40:11 <Diablo-D3> http://thermalright.com/products/index.php?cat_id=23#id=143
 920 2010-11-29 12:40:19 <Diablo-D3> I think I could buy two packs of these or something
 921 2010-11-29 12:40:28 <ArtForz> with a normal case design you have nearly no airflow in the card area
 922 2010-11-29 12:40:57 <Diablo-D3> actually
 923 2010-11-29 12:41:02 <ArtForz> so they put a exhaust grill over the slots or in the rear of the side panel
 924 2010-11-29 12:41:04 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if a manufacturer sells a good kit
 925 2010-11-29 12:41:08 <Diablo-D3> already done
 926 2010-11-29 12:41:15 <Diablo-D3> Ive seen lots of cards with third party hsf already on the card
 927 2010-11-29 12:54:48 <OneFixt> ;;bc,estimate
 928 2010-11-29 12:54:49 <gribble> 7780.95743293
 929 2010-11-29 13:06:59 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: damnit
 930 2010-11-29 13:07:07 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck cant someone just make a fucking card that isnt shit
 931 2010-11-29 13:07:09 <Diablo-D3> thats all I fucking ask
 932 2010-11-29 13:08:27 <xelister> Diablo-D3: profit/demand
 933 2010-11-29 13:08:39 <xelister> apparently people tollerate a-bit-shitty cards enough
 934 2010-11-29 13:09:19 <Diablo-D3> xelister: yeah but
 935 2010-11-29 13:09:23 <Diablo-D3> they could just make triple wide cards
 936 2010-11-29 13:09:26 <Diablo-D3> and get it over with
 937 2010-11-29 13:09:53 <Diablo-D3> put two 40mm fans on the end
 938 2010-11-29 13:09:59 <Diablo-D3> and the air is shot right out the case
 939 2010-11-29 13:10:44 <xelister> hm so anyone knows how to check blocks generated by me?
 940 2010-11-29 13:10:56 <xelister> generated some blocks like 24+ hours ago  and still dont see ballacne change
 941 2010-11-29 13:11:05 <Diablo-D3> I already told you
 942 2010-11-29 13:11:07 <Diablo-D3> stop bitcoind
 943 2010-11-29 13:11:10 <Diablo-D3> start bitcoin
 944 2010-11-29 13:11:14 <Diablo-D3> check the fucking ui
 945 2010-11-29 13:11:19 <xelister> oh didnt read that
 946 2010-11-29 13:11:21 <xelister> I dunt use fucking ui
 947 2010-11-29 13:11:30 <Diablo-D3> neither do I outside of that
 948 2010-11-29 13:11:30 <xelister> how to check from cmd line / rpc
 949 2010-11-29 13:11:33 <Diablo-D3> you cant
 950 2010-11-29 13:11:42 <Diablo-D3> dont like it? SUBMIT A PATCH TO SATOSHI
 951 2010-11-29 13:11:47 <xelister> :{
 952 2010-11-29 13:11:49 <Diablo-D3> goddamned fucking users
 953 2010-11-29 13:11:52 <Diablo-D3> all of them always want shit
 954 2010-11-29 13:12:03 <Diablo-D3> never willing to do it themselves
 955 2010-11-29 13:13:30 <xelister> I wanted to code better stats as I did with m0ms, you did it faster (1 day) :)
 956 2010-11-29 13:13:48 <Diablo-D3> you wouldnt have done it elegant enough
 957 2010-11-29 13:13:57 <Diablo-D3> restarting every x seconds isnt an acceptable solution
 958 2010-11-29 13:14:37 <xelister> *code better stats*
 959 2010-11-29 13:14:53 <Diablo-D3> what other stats does my app do?
 960 2010-11-29 13:15:00 <xelister> yeah I would put there array of last X samples, sample each 1 second for example, and show: last sample, nast N=30 samples avg, and global avg, obviously
 961 2010-11-29 13:15:11 <Diablo-D3> meh, two is enough
 962 2010-11-29 13:15:14 <xelister> btw, you coded just 1/3 rd of above
 963 2010-11-29 13:15:53 <xelister> about restarts, well, then now Im unsure...
 964 2010-11-29 13:16:29 <xelister> ArtForz: do you think slowdown from 99-97 to 70% GPU load, and 530->470M, can be in fact due to some throlling or other hw problem with radeon5970 at 86C ?
 965 2010-11-29 13:16:46 <xelister> its not o.c.'d?
 966 2010-11-29 13:16:47 <xelister> its not o.c.'d
 967 2010-11-29 13:16:54 <Diablo-D3> xelister: and yes, obviously now I dont need that fucking restart code
 968 2010-11-29 13:17:00 <Diablo-D3> since its fucking obvious your shits throttling
 969 2010-11-29 13:17:00 <Diablo-D3> oh
 970 2010-11-29 13:17:01 <Diablo-D3> and btw
 971 2010-11-29 13:17:08 <Diablo-D3> you know how you kept repeating that review?
 972 2010-11-29 13:17:09 <Diablo-D3> thats useless
 973 2010-11-29 13:17:16 <Diablo-D3> reviews never use real world conditions
 974 2010-11-29 13:17:26 <Diablo-D3> every computer is different
 975 2010-11-29 13:17:38 <xelister> well I remain uncertain, gfx right away goes to 86 C, why would it start slowing down only some hours later
 976 2010-11-29 13:18:10 <Diablo-D3> probably because its finally throttling
 977 2010-11-29 13:18:34 <xelister> but if it still stays at 86.0 C, why wait hours before throlling...I should log gpu temp next time
 978 2010-11-29 13:18:43 <Diablo-D3> why wait? who knows
 979 2010-11-29 13:18:47 <Diablo-D3> but its obvious its throttling
 980 2010-11-29 13:19:16 <xelister> how to be sure?  GPU load can go down due to throlling or due to other factors... is the throlling reported anywhere
 981 2010-11-29 13:19:32 <Diablo-D3> I doubt its reported
 982 2010-11-29 13:19:36 <Diablo-D3> you know why?
 983 2010-11-29 13:19:39 <Diablo-D3> THAT'D BE USEFUL
 984 2010-11-29 13:19:43 <Diablo-D3> AND GOD FORBID
 985 2010-11-29 13:19:43 <xelister> :)
 986 2010-11-29 13:19:45 <Diablo-D3> IS SHIT USEFUL
 987 2010-11-29 13:19:49 <Diablo-D3> WE CANT HAVE THAT CAN WE
 988 2010-11-29 13:20:02 * Diablo-D3 stabs the entire fucking computer industry
 989 2010-11-29 13:20:09 <xelister> they could at least report it in windows drivers, to fuck with linux community
 990 2010-11-29 13:20:18 <Diablo-D3> meh
 991 2010-11-29 13:20:22 <Diablo-D3> I wouldnt report it in the windows ones
 992 2010-11-29 13:20:23 <Diablo-D3> you know why?
 993 2010-11-29 13:20:36 * xelister have Diablo-D3 hiten by Daikatana as representative of industry
 994 2010-11-29 13:20:52 <Diablo-D3> a dialog would pop up, minimize their fullscreen game, and enrage all these fucking counterstrike fags
 995 2010-11-29 13:21:10 <Diablo-D3> WARGH DONT CARE ABOUT HEAT, I JUST MISSED SNIPER SHOT, OM NOM NOM CHEETOES
 996 2010-11-29 13:21:14 <xelister> it could have been logged in some utlity like that Ati stuff I bet there is for windows too
 997 2010-11-29 13:21:24 <xelister> VALVE AR FAGS. DUST PLZ
 998 2010-11-29 13:21:26 <Diablo-D3> well, if it is logged, Im not aware of a place
 999 2010-11-29 13:21:52 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1000 2010-11-29 13:21:56 <Diablo-D3> and its probably iding by rapidly switching between "off" speed and "on" speed
1001 2010-11-29 13:22:07 <Diablo-D3> so you cant catch it by monitoring speed
1002 2010-11-29 13:22:22 <xelister> you think it throlles by modulating core speed?
1003 2010-11-29 13:22:51 <xelister> well gpu core drops to 70% so thats not it
1004 2010-11-29 13:22:57 <xelister> well gpu LOAD drops to 70% so thats not it
1005 2010-11-29 13:26:03 <Diablo-D3> yes, but load is probably measured as "load to full speed"
1006 2010-11-29 13:26:05 <Diablo-D3> as in
1007 2010-11-29 13:26:11 <Diablo-D3> you can only hit 100% load at full speed
1008 2010-11-29 13:26:30 <Diablo-D3> load <10% is valid once you switch to "off" mode (~= 150mhz or whatever)
1009 2010-11-29 13:26:51 <Diablo-D3> load is also an estimate
1010 2010-11-29 13:27:02 <Diablo-D3> I can make shit read near 100% load and get nothing useful done
1011 2010-11-29 13:27:10 <xelister> Diablo-D3: what would be best place in your miner to send command like  setgenerate true,1  via RPC
1012 2010-11-29 13:27:36 <Diablo-D3> xelister: there wouldnt be.
1013 2010-11-29 13:27:40 <xelister> and also to know hook to "error" or "ok" response
1014 2010-11-29 13:27:52 <xelister> Diablo-D3: why not?
1015 2010-11-29 13:28:01 <Diablo-D3> because that should be setgenerate false.
1016 2010-11-29 13:28:18 <Diablo-D3> cpu mining has no place in the world
1017 2010-11-29 13:28:25 <xelister> that was just example, overall to execute rpc commands with arguments
1018 2010-11-29 13:29:01 <Diablo-D3> follow the getwork/sendwork examples in jsonrpcclassthingy
1019 2010-11-29 13:42:27 noagendamarket has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1020 2010-11-29 13:43:32 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127531
1021 2010-11-29 13:44:02 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: thats the cheapest {5/6850, 5/6870} that isnt a shit brand
1022 2010-11-29 13:49:01 bertodsera has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1023 2010-11-29 13:51:07 bertodsera has joined
1024 2010-11-29 13:51:10 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1025 2010-11-29 13:54:12 gavinandresen has joined
1026 2010-11-29 14:03:27 <xelister> bitcoind wx widget's usage is wrong
1027 2010-11-29 14:03:58 <xelister> hm, or it is simply 2.9-only. damn ubutnu not packing 2.9 yet
1028 2010-11-29 14:04:27 <bonsaikitten> xelister: the makefile is a nice accident :)
1029 2010-11-29 14:04:44 <xelister> bonsaikitten: what do you mean?
1030 2010-11-29 14:04:48 <Diablo-D3> xelister: its 2.9 only
1031 2010-11-29 14:04:55 <xelister> it should use `wx-config` by the way
1032 2010-11-29 14:05:00 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why he uses 2.9
1033 2010-11-29 14:05:06 <Diablo-D3> 2.9 is a beta version that will never be packaged
1034 2010-11-29 14:05:27 <bonsaikitten> xelister: the best way to fix it would be to throw it away and start from scratch
1035 2010-11-29 14:05:31 <xelister> thats not helping to get bitcoin packed for ubuntu
1036 2010-11-29 14:06:20 <Diablo-D3> xelister: see, there you go again
1037 2010-11-29 14:06:27 <Diablo-D3> bitch at satoshi if you want it fixed
1038 2010-11-29 14:30:47 rhorning has joined
1039 2010-11-29 14:41:45 dwdollar has left ()
1040 2010-11-29 14:42:35 anarchy_ has joined
1041 2010-11-29 14:42:55 <anarchy_> ;;bc,stats
1042 2010-11-29 14:42:57 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94507 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 244 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 11 hours, 44 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7811.46877159
1043 2010-11-29 14:43:02 anarchy_ is now known as anarchyx
1044 2010-11-29 14:43:33 bertodsera has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1045 2010-11-29 14:48:32 ByteCoin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1054 2010-11-29 15:20:11 davux has joined
1055 2010-11-29 15:20:14 <davux> hi :)
1056 2010-11-29 15:20:50 <davux> how is it possible to use the TEST blockchain?
1057 2010-11-29 15:21:20 <davux> i'm working on http://gitorious.org/bitcoim/ and i'll need to test payments soon
1058 2010-11-29 15:21:22 fedorared has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1059 2010-11-29 15:31:16 fedorared has joined
1060 2010-11-29 15:32:42 m0mchil has joined
1061 2010-11-29 15:33:09 <m0mchil> davux, run it with -testnet
1062 2010-11-29 15:42:34 <xelister> hi m0mchil
1063 2010-11-29 15:45:03 <m0mchil> hi
1064 2010-11-29 15:47:46 <brocktice> m0mchil: hey!
1065 2010-11-29 15:47:50 <brocktice> just the guy I was looking for
1066 2010-11-29 15:47:55 <brocktice> I just sent you a pull request
1067 2010-11-29 15:48:12 <m0mchil> hi brocktice
1068 2010-11-29 15:48:42 <brocktice> m0mchil: You can read the pull request rather than me retyping it all here, but I'd like to know your opinion of it.
1069 2010-11-29 15:53:48 darrob- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1070 2010-11-29 16:18:51 acous has joined
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1072 2010-11-29 16:22:38 darrob has joined
1073 2010-11-29 16:23:36 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1074 2010-11-29 16:23:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94530 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 221 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 8 hours, 11 minutes, and 33 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7856.81026329
1075 2010-11-29 16:24:12 <nanotube> hm next difficulty estimate moving on up... :)
1076 2010-11-29 16:25:13 theymos has joined
1077 2010-11-29 16:29:33 <OneFixt> ;;bc,estimate
1078 2010-11-29 16:29:33 <gribble> 7856.81026329
1079 2010-11-29 16:43:27 m0mchil has left ()
1080 2010-11-29 17:14:46 Xanie has quit (Quit: "If a tree falls in a forest, and it lands on Bill Gates, who wouldn't celebrate?)
1081 2010-11-29 17:16:31 Zarutian has joined
1082 2010-11-29 17:27:40 balboah has joined
1083 2010-11-29 17:28:06 <gargamel> by the looks of it, seems like it was just one big sell order
1084 2010-11-29 17:28:20 <balboah> nice drop on mtgox
1085 2010-11-29 17:28:46 <brocktice> ;;bc,mtgox
1086 2010-11-29 17:28:47 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.2815,"low":0.2151,"vol":35050,"buy":0.22,"sell":0.27,"last":0.27}}
1087 2010-11-29 17:30:33 <balboah> lots of sells and not alot of buys
1088 2010-11-29 17:34:33 * jgarzik struggles to find where AddToBlockIndex() actually tells Berkeley DB to commit a transaction.
1089 2010-11-29 17:45:52 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1090 2010-11-29 17:45:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94548 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 203 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 5 hours, 26 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7889.42748449
1091 2010-11-29 17:46:02 <brocktice> up up
1092 2010-11-29 17:46:18 rhorning has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1093 2010-11-29 17:55:50 <xelister> wtf is the mtgox doing
1094 2010-11-29 17:56:00 * xelister urges ArtForz to sell @ 0.30
1095 2010-11-29 17:56:31 <brocktice> xelister: it's correcting
1096 2010-11-29 17:57:12 <xelister> lol someones buying 20,000 BTCs @ 0.20
1097 2010-11-29 17:57:22 <nanotube> s/buying/wants to buy/ :)
1098 2010-11-29 17:57:27 <xelister> ;]
1099 2010-11-29 17:57:50 <nanotube> xelister: if ArtForz posts an ask at .3, that won't change what's going on on the market, you know.
1100 2010-11-29 17:58:06 <brocktice> yeah, he just won't sell his coins for a long while
1101 2010-11-29 17:58:17 <brocktice> At first when mining I tried to sell at my 'desired' price.
1102 2010-11-29 17:58:18 <nanotube> there's plenty of asks at .30 already
1103 2010-11-29 17:58:21 <xelister> well but if there are no other coins < 0.30
1104 2010-11-29 17:58:29 <brocktice> Then I realized until the miner is paid off I needed to just well when I had them
1105 2010-11-29 17:58:34 <brocktice> because who knows wtf the price will do
1106 2010-11-29 17:58:34 <xelister> and people really want to buy coins, then they will pay more, no?
1107 2010-11-29 17:58:42 <brocktice> s/well/sell/
1108 2010-11-29 17:59:02 <nanotube> xelister: so you're basically saying... /if/ there was no supply, /and/ there was high demand, price would rise. well, yea, duh. :)
1109 2010-11-29 17:59:04 <brocktice> xelister: new coins are a small fraction of the total economy
1110 2010-11-29 17:59:17 <brocktice> xelister: attempting to cartelize production won't change that much
1111 2010-11-29 17:59:17 <xelister> are they?
1112 2010-11-29 17:59:35 <xelister> btw what are your thoughts of reasons of the 2 rises in btc value?
1113 2010-11-29 17:59:44 <xelister> 0 -> 0.06 and 0.06 -> ~0.25
1114 2010-11-29 17:59:47 <nanotube> xelister: new coins are produced at about 7200 btc per day. mtgox volume is much higher than that.
1115 2010-11-29 17:59:50 <brocktice> 7200 are produced (ideally) every day
1116 2010-11-29 18:00:09 <xelister> imho 0.06 -> 0.25 was correlted with public avaibility of gpu miners
1117 2010-11-29 18:00:21 <brocktice> that's about 0.15% inflation per day
1118 2010-11-29 18:00:28 <brocktice> (of supply, not price)
1119 2010-11-29 18:00:38 <MT`AwAy> xelister: maybe it has something to do with slashdot?
1120 2010-11-29 18:00:50 <brocktice> jump to 0.6 was more related with slashdot I think.
1121 2010-11-29 18:00:56 <brocktice> er, 0.06
1122 2010-11-29 18:01:06 <wumpus> yeah, it has been on slashdot, news.ycombinator.com, a few times
1123 2010-11-29 18:01:26 * MT`AwAy was able to sell bitcoins at ~0.39 a few weeks ago on mtgox
1124 2010-11-29 18:02:05 <brocktice> I'm guessing it's a temporary drop just now.
1125 2010-11-29 18:02:28 <brocktice> uptrend will continue in a few weeks at most
1126 2010-11-29 18:02:39 <brocktice> many more bitcoin services are coming online increasing demand and liquidity
1127 2010-11-29 18:03:00 <brocktice> but, that's my intuition, I'm not a professional analyst by any stretch of the imagination.
1128 2010-11-29 18:03:05 <wumpus> I wonder how much it has to drop before a real panic sell starts
1129 2010-11-29 18:03:18 <MT`AwAy> I have people buying domains and vps with bitcoins here
1130 2010-11-29 18:03:32 <theymos> I hope it drops back down to 0.06 so I can buy more.
1131 2010-11-29 18:03:38 <jgarzik> :)
1132 2010-11-29 18:03:39 <wumpus> theymos: heh :)
1133 2010-11-29 18:03:46 * nanotube is hoping for .003
1134 2010-11-29 18:03:51 <nanotube> so he can buy more :)
1135 2010-11-29 18:04:37 <wumpus> nah on the other hand, if it fluctuates that much, people won't take it seriously anymore
1136 2010-11-29 18:04:49 * MT`AwAy is hoping for a constant increase in value over time
1137 2010-11-29 18:05:03 <MT`AwAy> (might be difficult within the first 4 years)
1138 2010-11-29 18:05:21 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
1139 2010-11-29 18:05:21 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.279,"low":0.2151,"vol":32759,"buy":0.237,"sell":0.2435,"last":0.251}}
1140 2010-11-29 18:05:39 <nanotube> looks like b/a is coming together at around .24
1141 2010-11-29 18:11:51 <balboah> yay made 13 whole bitcoins because of the drop ;)
1142 2010-11-29 18:11:58 <nanotube> woo
1143 2010-11-29 18:12:20 <balboah> I'm rich!
1144 2010-11-29 18:12:40 <nanotube> haha yea... maybe in 2020. if you hold on to them. :)
1145 2010-11-29 18:13:13 <balboah> :P
1146 2010-11-29 18:14:58 balboah has quit (Quit: balboah)
1147 2010-11-29 18:19:47 warner has joined
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1149 2010-11-29 18:27:40 <xelister> Diablo-D3: you dont use /t for tabs?
1150 2010-11-29 18:29:02 altamic has joined
1151 2010-11-29 18:29:18 <altamic> hello there
1152 2010-11-29 18:30:18 <Diablo-D3> xelister: I dont use tabs
1153 2010-11-29 18:30:35 <nanotube> altamic: buongiorno! ;)
1154 2010-11-29 18:30:46 <altamic> yo nanotube
1155 2010-11-29 18:30:49 <altamic> :)
1156 2010-11-29 18:30:52 <nanotube> :)
1157 2010-11-29 18:31:13 warner has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
1158 2010-11-29 18:33:45 <jgarzik> gawd
1159 2010-11-29 18:33:58 <jgarzik> bitcoin is opening and closing blkindex.dat for each block received
1160 2010-11-29 18:34:08 <jgarzik> no wonder it's slow
1161 2010-11-29 18:34:21 <nanotube> heh time for another patch... :)
1162 2010-11-29 18:35:10 <theymos> Doesn't it only do that for blocks after 74000?
1163 2010-11-29 18:41:13 <jgarzik> theymos: no, it opens+closes the database for _all_ blocks added to blkindex.dat
1164 2010-11-29 18:41:22 <jgarzik> theymos: see AddToBlockIndex()
1165 2010-11-29 18:41:32 <jgarzik> s/all blocks/each block/
1166 2010-11-29 18:42:06 <jgarzik> bitcoin calls AddToBlockIndex() for each block downloaded from P2P network, as part of the ProcessBlock() callchain
1167 2010-11-29 18:42:59 <nanotube> jgarzik: does that provide some kind of safety against crash, etc? would flushing to disk after every block, without open/closing the file be appreciably faster?
1168 2010-11-29 18:44:10 <jgarzik> nanotube: db4 transactional database provides safety against crash.  database is kept consistent at all times through the use of transactions, just like standard practice in SQL world.
1169 2010-11-29 18:44:37 <nanotube> jgarzik: ah in that case... yea
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1172 2010-11-29 18:58:52 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: a minimal version of listtransactions is really close to being ready for svn commit....   but I suspect you'll want to immediately patch it to add a bunch of information...
1173 2010-11-29 18:59:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: cool :)
1174 2010-11-29 18:59:19 <brocktice> gavinandresen: yay!
1175 2010-11-29 18:59:25 <brocktice> gavinandresen: I was getting sick of patching for it
1176 2010-11-29 18:59:30 * jgarzik is happy to see good features upstreaming
1177 2010-11-29 18:59:44 <brocktice> gavinandresen: modified my miner to just tell me when blocks would mature
1178 2010-11-29 19:00:01 <gavinandresen> brocktice:  ah.  You won't be happy, then.
1179 2010-11-29 19:00:22 <brocktice> gavinandresen: why not?
1180 2010-11-29 19:00:40 <brocktice> gavinandresen: it doesn't depend on listtransactions
1181 2010-11-29 19:00:45 <gavinandresen> brocktice: because the minimal listtransactions doesn't report on immature generated blocks
1182 2010-11-29 19:00:55 <brocktice> oh :(
1183 2010-11-29 19:01:02 <brocktice> so yeah, annoying, but I worked around it already anyway
1184 2010-11-29 19:01:31 <gavinandresen> (that's why I think jgarzik will want to immediately patch.... I'm curious to hear what features of listtransactions people are using, though)
1185 2010-11-29 19:01:46 <jgarzik> Problem: opening and closing database for each block
1186 2010-11-29 19:01:47 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1931.msg25434#msg25434
1187 2010-11-29 19:01:48 <brocktice> gavinandresen: I just use it to check for maturing blocks
1188 2010-11-29 19:01:49 * jgarzik posts analysis
1189 2010-11-29 19:01:50 <brocktice> as noted
1190 2010-11-29 19:02:07 <brocktice> since I don't run the gui on my miner
1191 2010-11-29 19:02:34 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: nice, making bitcoin startup faster is at the top of my wish list
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1197 2010-11-29 19:08:16 * jgarzik notes tuple storage making an appearance in SVN
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1201 2010-11-29 19:09:58 <JudStephenson> ;
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1203 2010-11-29 19:10:45 altamic_ is now known as altamic
1204 2010-11-29 19:18:01 <jgarzik> a fscking db4 checkpoint is in there too
1205 2010-11-29 19:18:15 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: do you know anything about multithreaded access to berkeley db?  I'm wondering if one Db* per database file would work if multiple threads were using the same Db*....
1206 2010-11-29 19:18:32 <jgarzik> so, for each downloaded block, including initial block download, we:  force a db4 checkpoint, fsync mpool, fsync database file.
1207 2010-11-29 19:18:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: db4 does MT just fine
1208 2010-11-29 19:19:13 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17076_01/html/programmer_reference/program_mt.html
1209 2010-11-29 19:19:29 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: cool, should be easy to create/test a fix, then.
1210 2010-11-29 19:20:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: CDB (and its ancestor CTxDB) do this in their object constructor / destructor code.  It will require non-trivial changes to bitcoin :/
1211 2010-11-29 19:20:45 <jgarzik> bitcoin instantiates (read: db open + fsync + close) databases as temporary variables all over the place :/
1212 2010-11-29 19:21:13 <gavinandresen> Non-trivial but pretty easy... just put a static Db* in the subclasses, have a virtual method to get them in the parent class and make the constructors not create a new Db if there's already one around....
1213 2010-11-29 19:21:21 <gavinandresen> The db files are already refcounted
1214 2010-11-29 19:21:51 <gavinandresen> (should be able to do it all with just changes to Db.h/Db.cpp)
1215 2010-11-29 19:26:02 <gavinandresen> ... although rereading the page on multithreaded applications that you linked to jgarzik, I wonder if there are multithreaded dragons lurking (e.g. one thread starts a transaction while another is in the middle of scanning through the db using a cursor...)
1216 2010-11-29 19:27:00 <wumpus> if transactions work like they're supposed to, that shouldn't be a problem
1217 2010-11-29 19:27:16 <wumpus> then again, I've never used bdb with transactions so I wouldn't know
1218 2010-11-29 19:28:42 <gavinandresen> wumpus:  "Cursors may not span transactions."    ... is one of the rules.
1219 2010-11-29 19:30:38 <wumpus> how to read that? is that 'one cursor cannot be used in multiple transactions'?
1220 2010-11-29 19:31:06 <wumpus> I'd think it depends on the isolation level of the transactions
1221 2010-11-29 19:31:46 <gavinandresen> I read it as:  you can't   create cursor....   create transaction, do stuff, commit transaction ... do stuff with cursor, close cursor
1222 2010-11-29 19:32:02 <wumpus> indeed
1223 2010-11-29 19:32:09 <wumpus> but that doesn't say anything about threads
1224 2010-11-29 19:32:47 <gavinandresen> Right, but if you're threading you have to worry about thread1 doing the create cursor, then getting suspended while thread2 does the transaction.
1225 2010-11-29 19:33:31 <wumpus> doesn't a cursor belong to one transaction in bdb?
1226 2010-11-29 19:34:08 <wumpus> otherwise the two threads would be acting in the same transaction, that'd indeed be bad
1227 2010-11-29 19:34:19 <wumpus> and defeat the entire point
1228 2010-11-29 19:34:30 <wumpus> of having transactions at all :P
1229 2010-11-29 19:36:37 <gavinandresen> "Cursor operations are not automatically transaction-protected" .... cursors may be associated with a transaction, but don't have to be...
1230 2010-11-29 19:36:47 <wumpus> right
1231 2010-11-29 19:37:47 <xelister> The media tells us that getting our nuts groped and having naked pictures of children taken with backscatter x-ray booths is a good thing. It tells us having our phones tapped is a good thing. Being arrested and detained by someone who isn't even a police officer is a good thing. The government is now a babysitter.
1232 2010-11-29 19:37:49 <xelister> American people "are not terrorized" because they're crawling under a security blanket coated with poisons.
1233 2010-11-29 19:38:01 <gavinandresen> Ok, I'm concluding that jgarzik is right: having one Db* pointer per database file is definitely non-trivial, if only because you'd have to think long and hard about potential multithreading issues...
1234 2010-11-29 19:38:13 <gavinandresen> xelister: I am not afraid.
1235 2010-11-29 19:38:23 <xelister> nicy economical summary (imho) how al quaeda owns USA anytime with the power of economy -> http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/11/23/death_by_a_thousand_cuts
1236 2010-11-29 19:38:56 <wumpus> I'm scared of many things, but definitely terrorism is not one of them
1237 2010-11-29 19:39:22 <JudStephenson> I feel like you guys have to put up with a lot of xelister's in this room
1238 2010-11-29 19:39:58 RazielZ has quit ()
1239 2010-11-29 19:41:08 <xelister> wumpus: that was the general conclusion, perhaps citizens are not, but the government sure [acts as if] is scared
1240 2010-11-29 19:45:20 <wumpus> which means the terrorism works, it is meant to make governments scared
1241 2010-11-29 19:48:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: cursors aren't really a problem.  the way bitcoin does transactions _is_ a problem:  it stores db4 transaction pointers in an array, and hides txns thoroughly in ::Read and ::Write, which are used for key/value storage
1242 2010-11-29 19:48:26 nelisky has joined
1243 2010-11-29 19:49:02 <jgarzik> txns are hidden so well, that it becomes quite difficult to change to a more standard scheme, where txns are coded manually inside of a function that accesses a database for read or write.
1244 2010-11-29 19:50:54 <wumpus> I don't get it, why would you store db transactions?
1245 2010-11-29 19:51:20 <wumpus> I don't think you can even do that in sql :)
1246 2010-11-29 19:55:35 <gavinandresen> wumpus: if I recall correctly, bitcoin stored txn pointers so subtransactions work transparently...
1247 2010-11-29 19:55:53 <jgarzik> wumpus: "store" refers to storing pointers to db4 transactions in a data structure
1248 2010-11-29 19:55:58 <jgarzik> wumpus: you can do that in SQL
1249 2010-11-29 19:56:24 <jgarzik> "pointer to db4 transaction" == the data structure db4 uses for an open, uncommitted transaction
1250 2010-11-29 19:56:26 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  looks to me like you COULD call CDB::TxnBegin() ... CDB::TxnCommit/Abort to do traditional transactions
1251 2010-11-29 19:56:41 <wumpus> subtransactions, yeah of course, you have multiple levels
1252 2010-11-29 19:56:51 <wumpus> that's the part I missed
1253 2010-11-29 19:56:55 <gavinandresen> I'm away for a while.
1254 2010-11-29 19:57:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: agree
1255 2010-11-29 19:57:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: the main hurdle is moving database open/close to program startup/shutdown
1256 2010-11-29 19:59:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: why not just open on first use...  (and now I really AM away for a while)
1257 2010-11-29 20:00:18 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: you can do that, but IMO it's a pointless optimization.
1258 2010-11-29 20:01:45 <wumpus> the database is central to the application, so it makes sense to open it on startup
1259 2010-11-29 20:07:17 <jgarzik> well, in fairness, bitcoin does open the database -environment- at startup
1260 2010-11-29 20:08:09 <jgarzik> db4 environment is the container for multiple databases; handles transaction logging, caching, and other goodies that might be needed across individual key/value databases.
1261 2010-11-29 20:08:56 <wumpus> right
1262 2010-11-29 20:09:32 <andrew12> no wonder i couldn't wake up
1263 2010-11-29 20:09:43 <andrew12> I had my alarm set for 2pm not 6am
1264 2010-11-29 20:11:32 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1265 2010-11-29 20:12:55 <brocktice> next diff is approaching 8k pretty steadily
1266 2010-11-29 20:13:00 <brocktice> ;;bc,estimate
1267 2010-11-29 20:13:00 <gribble> 7891.63093149
1268 2010-11-29 20:14:03 <gargamel> does the current client reject a block if it has no generation transaction?
1269 2010-11-29 20:14:37 <theymos> Yes.
1270 2010-11-29 20:15:30 <gargamel> thanks
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1275 2010-11-29 20:35:35 <xelister> guys do you know where to plug in bitcoin(d) to count number of generated-by-us-but-yet-maturing blocks?
1276 2010-11-29 20:35:50 <xelister> then we could add it to getinfo or to new rpc
1277 2010-11-29 20:37:26 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1278 2010-11-29 20:37:36 <jgarzik> sigh.  buried deep within multiple C++ constructors is indeed database open caching.  major red herring on my part.
1279 2010-11-29 20:38:40 <xelister> although still bitcoin is quite well written I guess?  use of boost is for one good with all this C-style-in-C++ coding
1280 2010-11-29 20:39:02 <xelister> btw, Im working on project to make bitcoind portable (crossbuildable), actually its basically done
1281 2010-11-29 20:41:48 <xelister> anyone knows m0m's real name/email to credit him in code based on the current miners?
1282 2010-11-29 20:43:58 <brocktice> Momchil Georgiev I think?
1283 2010-11-29 20:44:11 <brocktice> http://twitter.com/m0mchil
1284 2010-11-29 20:45:20 <xelister> meh right... I looked at that page yesterday... probably was sleepy
1285 2010-11-29 20:47:35 <andrew12> deicious salt and vinegar chips
1286 2010-11-29 20:52:08 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1287 2010-11-29 20:55:18 <xelister> mmm salt. signup for your bypass today, 25,000 BTC off to first 10 customers
1288 2010-11-29 20:55:45 darrob has joined
1289 2010-11-29 20:59:26 altamic has joined
1290 2010-11-29 20:59:43 <brocktice> xelister: you've got your causes mixed up
1291 2010-11-29 21:00:16 <brocktice> atherosclerosis has a lot more to do with saturated fat consumption
1292 2010-11-29 21:02:06 <brocktice> oh wait I stand corrected
1293 2010-11-29 21:02:10 <brocktice> salt is also a risk factor
1294 2010-11-29 21:11:08 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1295 2010-11-29 21:14:27 necrodearia has joined
1296 2010-11-29 21:21:06 <tylergillies> heh i read that as an encryption salt, not "actual" salt
1297 2010-11-29 21:21:21 <tylergillies> i was like "no, salts are good!"
1298 2010-11-29 21:21:37 <andrew12> encryption sodium!
1299 2010-11-29 21:24:24 <xelister> i was like "no, salts are good!" :)
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1303 2010-11-29 21:37:00 <andrew12> I should make a bitcoin lottery site or something
1304 2010-11-29 21:37:15 <andrew12> or someone should
1305 2010-11-29 21:39:46 <nelisky> andrew12: you mean another one? -> taabl.datlatec.com
1306 2010-11-29 21:40:00 <nelisky> andrew12: or are you thinking of a different type of lottery
1307 2010-11-29 21:40:01 * andrew12 derp
1308 2010-11-29 21:40:26 <nelisky> granted, the "lottery" is disabled
1309 2010-11-29 21:40:35 <nelisky> have to find a couple of hours to fix it soon
1310 2010-11-29 21:41:42 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1311 2010-11-29 21:42:02 <andrew12> I was thinking something more like everyone sends in bitcoins, and for each bitcoin someone sends, the more likely they are to get chosen, and whoever is chosen gets all the money that was sent
1312 2010-11-29 21:44:09 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1313 2010-11-29 21:44:58 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|a lottery?
1314 2010-11-29 21:45:07 <andrew12> yes
1315 2010-11-29 21:45:30 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I support lottery
1316 2010-11-29 21:45:32 <andrew12> like, there wouldn't be any bets or anything, it would just be send money, get money if you win, otherwise you lose it
1317 2010-11-29 21:45:34 <nelisky> that's what it does, sort of :)
1318 2010-11-29 21:45:36 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|But I demand you rig it so I win
1319 2010-11-29 21:45:46 <andrew12> nameless|: lol
1320 2010-11-29 21:45:58 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Why not make a front end
1321 2010-11-29 21:46:03 <nelisky> "if you win" == "if your bet wins"
1322 2010-11-29 21:46:04 <nelisky> ?
1323 2010-11-29 21:46:05 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|YOu go, pick numbers
1324 2010-11-29 21:46:17 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|then sumbit the address you're sending coins from
1325 2010-11-29 21:46:23 <nelisky> how do you choose the winner, if there are no bets?
1326 2010-11-29 21:46:27 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Or, it generates a custom address for you to send coins too
1327 2010-11-29 21:46:36 <nelisky> guys...
1328 2010-11-29 21:46:38 <andrew12> nelisky: you wouldn't bet. your name (address, in this case) would just be put in as many times as you sumbit coins
1329 2010-11-29 21:46:42 <nelisky> that's what taabl does
1330 2010-11-29 21:47:01 <nelisky> andrew12: you still bet, you just don't choose the bet
1331 2010-11-29 21:47:05 <andrew12> oh
1332 2010-11-29 21:47:07 <nelisky> andrew12: use random bets
1333 2010-11-29 21:47:11 <andrew12> well
1334 2010-11-29 21:47:12 <andrew12> hmm
1335 2010-11-29 21:47:16 <andrew12> i guess that's true
1336 2010-11-29 21:47:21 <nelisky> else how do you choose the winner?
1337 2010-11-29 21:47:30 <nelisky> he who buys more entry tickets?
1338 2010-11-29 21:47:34 <nelisky> :)
1339 2010-11-29 21:47:35 <andrew12> no
1340 2010-11-29 21:47:45 * jgarzik is surprised that nelisky doesn't do more lottery promotion
1341 2010-11-29 21:47:55 <jgarzik> like a weekly "jackpot winners" post or something
1342 2010-11-29 21:48:05 <nelisky> jgarzik: did a little, have 90 registered users
1343 2010-11-29 21:48:16 <jgarzik> nelisky: nice
1344 2010-11-29 21:48:19 <nelisky> but it seems that it usage dropped as much as my time
1345 2010-11-29 21:48:34 <nelisky> it's been weeks since last person has placed a bet
1346 2010-11-29 21:48:55 <nelisky> I'll get back to it, polish a few things and I'll come back full charge !
1347 2010-11-29 21:48:56 <andrew12> I would put whoever's address into an array x times, where x is the number of bitcoins they send, and then after there's like i dunno, 1000 bitcoins submitted, i'd have it randomly pick one address from the array and send them 1000 btc (or whatever)
1348 2010-11-29 21:48:57 <nelisky> hehe
1349 2010-11-29 21:49:17 <andrew12> it would probably be more like "it ends on this day and the winner will be chosen and money will be sent"
1350 2010-11-29 21:49:24 <nelisky> andrew12: that's not a lottery, that's a raffle I guess
1351 2010-11-29 21:49:34 <andrew12> that's probably it
1352 2010-11-29 21:49:41 <nelisky> still a good idea, though
1353 2010-11-29 21:49:49 <nelisky> please do make it live, I'll be betting ;)
1354 2010-11-29 21:50:24 <andrew12> I'd need to figure out how to write it without having to run my own server.. using something like Google App Engine
1355 2010-11-29 21:50:47 <andrew12> I'm going to try your TAABL thing.
1356 2010-11-29 21:50:47 <gavinandresen> I think somebody should make a Bitcoin Bulldozer machine.  Like those machines in arcades where you drop in a quarter, and if you're lucky it falls where a bulldozer pushes it back to you with a bunch of other quarters.
1357 2010-11-29 21:50:59 <andrew12> gavinandresen: haha
1358 2010-11-29 21:51:22 <nelisky> heh, I wish I had finished my VPS service already
1359 2010-11-29 21:52:41 <gavinandresen> If I wasn't afraid of getting busted for Internet Gambling, I'd implement a BItcoin Bulldozer.  Send bitcoins to <some address>, you may get a bunch back or you may get none.  Balance displayed on the web page, no need to register (it could use my refundtransaction patch to automagically send your winnings back to you, if you win)
1360 2010-11-29 21:54:31 <andrew12> i'd make a pretend one
1361 2010-11-29 21:54:43 <andrew12> using random number generators
1362 2010-11-29 21:56:20 <nelisky> gavinandresen: the refundtransaction, how does it work? Can you refund more than the original transactions? multiple times?
1363 2010-11-29 21:57:16 <gavinandresen> nelisky:  refundtransaction traces back through transactions, digging out an address for the person who sent you coins.  Then you can send as much as you like, as many times as you like, to that address.
1364 2010-11-29 21:57:47 <gavinandresen> nelisky: only drawback is if the person has that address marked in their address book as "From JoeBob", then your 'refunds' look like they're "From JoeBob"
1365 2010-11-29 21:58:09 <andrew12> it'd be like if there's more than 50 in the machine, pick a random number from 0 to however many coins there are in the machine but make it really unlikely to get anything
1366 2010-11-29 21:58:28 <nelisky> gavinandresen: oh, I was under the impression that wasn't possible, i.e. the sending address was not recorded publicly
1367 2010-11-29 21:58:43 <andrew12> nelisky: how else would you know who has what coins?
1368 2010-11-29 21:59:06 <andrew12> there'd be no way of verifying that someone isn't lying
1369 2010-11-29 21:59:11 <nelisky> andrew12: you wouldn't, that's why you use a receiveing address per user / reason
1370 2010-11-29 21:59:17 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
1371 2010-11-29 21:59:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94578 | Current Difficulty: 6866.89864897 | Next Difficulty At Block: 94751 | Next Difficulty In: 173 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 1 hour, 5 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 7893.00871099
1372 2010-11-29 21:59:36 <andrew12> nelisky: yeah, but if you use it like this then you don't even need people to register :P
1373 2010-11-29 21:59:55 <nelisky> andrew12: that was my exact thought...
1374 2010-11-29 22:01:27 <theymos> You can't choose which address to send from, so it's not good for identification or anything else that requires predictability.
1375 2010-11-29 22:02:41 <andrew12> is it possible to send bitcoins to yourself? haha
1376 2010-11-29 22:02:59 <andrew12> indeed it is!
1377 2010-11-29 22:03:13 <andrew12> Description: Payment to yourself
1378 2010-11-29 22:03:14 <andrew12> lol
1379 2010-11-29 22:03:57 <nelisky> still, minimal registration with no personal data collection is still better
1380 2010-11-29 22:04:09 <nelisky> when things go bad, people expect the sysadmin to fix
1381 2010-11-29 22:04:32 <nelisky> and if there's no way to assert the person holds the account, or if there's no account...
1382 2010-11-29 22:04:32 <andrew12> well the way this would work it would be just about unbreakable
1383 2010-11-29 22:04:56 <nelisky> unbreakable in what sense?
1384 2010-11-29 22:05:17 <nelisky> a user couldn't make a mistake? a bug would never exist in the system?
1385 2010-11-29 22:05:29 <tcatm> Is it normal that LibertyReserve balance takes a few minutes to update?
1386 2010-11-29 22:05:32 <andrew12> if they can send you coins through that address, then it's assumed that that address can be sent coins back'
1387 2010-11-29 22:05:46 <andrew12> tcatm: all transations take a while, so probably
1388 2010-11-29 22:06:58 <nelisky> andrew12: yeah, we're talking of different things, sorry
1389 2010-11-29 22:07:15 <andrew12> nelisky: if you can write it so simply that it'd be almost impossible to have any mistakes then it's just about unbreakable
1390 2010-11-29 22:07:17 <nelisky> andrew12: I meant using refund as generic way to avoid registration
1391 2010-11-29 22:07:48 <nelisky> andrew12: I assume you code... do you REALLY believe what you just said? :p
1392 2010-11-29 22:07:56 <andrew12> lol
1393 2010-11-29 22:08:01 <andrew12> kinda
1394 2010-11-29 22:08:09 <nelisky> you're a better man than me
1395 2010-11-29 22:08:25 <andrew12> I mean if it's something you hacked together it's going to have issues
1396 2010-11-29 22:12:33 <andrew12> bitcoin raffles would be fun
1397 2010-11-29 22:12:46 <andrew12> for actual tangible items
1398 2010-11-29 22:17:16 Lyspooner has joined
1399 2010-11-29 22:18:26 <Lyspooner> one of you coiners knows my gay-as-a-french-horn friend from birmingham.  who is it? own up
1400 2010-11-29 22:19:05 <andrew12> yeah totally
1401 2010-11-29 22:22:51 <andrew12> nelisky: how long to bit picks usually take? haha
1402 2010-11-29 22:23:47 <nelisky> the pick3 usually hits in less than 24h
1403 2010-11-29 22:24:14 <nelisky> pick4 usually 24~72h
1404 2010-11-29 22:24:30 <nelisky> pick6 has taken multiple weeks, and once a few days
1405 2010-11-29 22:25:11 <nelisky> but it all depends on the number of bets, obviously
1406 2010-11-29 22:25:18 <andrew12> i'll put some in pick3 so maybe some other people will add some too
1407 2010-11-29 22:25:19 <andrew12> :p
1408 2010-11-29 22:26:13 <andrew12> now I just need to wait for bitcoin to actually send the blocks 'round
1409 2010-11-29 22:26:26 <andrew12> send my transations or whatevers :p
1410 2010-11-29 22:26:35 <nelisky> I used to seed pick3 and pick4, to make it more appealing
1411 2010-11-29 22:26:44 <nelisky> lost quite a bit of coins :)
1412 2010-11-29 22:27:08 <nelisky> but I'll join your betting
1413 2010-11-29 22:27:21 <Lyspooner> how's the sportsbook
1414 2010-11-29 22:27:46 <andrew12> 90979-94581 ... i'd figure we're probably going to win quickly
1415 2010-11-29 22:27:54 <andrew12> one of us at least
1416 2010-11-29 22:28:01 <andrew12> muahahaha
1417 2010-11-29 22:28:04 <nelisky> andrew12: whatchamean?
1418 2010-11-29 22:28:18 <nelisky> bets are only valid 6 blocks after you put them
1419 2010-11-29 22:28:36 <andrew12> yeah
1420 2010-11-29 22:28:47 <nelisky> to prevent me from putting bets after I know the result, basically
1421 2010-11-29 22:28:47 <andrew12> i mean like
1422 2010-11-29 22:29:22 <andrew12> well i don't even know what i mean
1423 2010-11-29 22:29:23 <andrew12> wee
1424 2010-11-29 22:30:26 <andrew12> you added 10 :o
1425 2010-11-29 22:30:42 <andrew12> yay 2 confirmations
1426 2010-11-29 22:31:05 <nelisky> yes, but I take a 5% fee, so really only betting 9...heh
1427 2010-11-29 22:31:12 <andrew12> haha
1428 2010-11-29 22:32:38 <andrew12> yay 3 confirmations. now my bets appear
1429 2010-11-29 22:32:48 <andrew12> squeee~
1430 2010-11-29 22:33:46 <nelisky> wow, settle down, don't have a heart attack or something :p
1431 2010-11-29 22:40:00 <andrew12> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_XOR_cipher
1432 2010-11-29 22:40:06 <andrew12> that's interesting
1433 2010-11-29 22:43:31 <Lyspooner> nelisky, you have a nice platform for prop betting
1434 2010-11-29 22:44:04 <nelisky> Lyspooner: thanks... I did that just to create the supporting lib for a larger project
1435 2010-11-29 22:44:19 <nelisky> one that never came out... still hope to finish one day soon
1436 2010-11-29 22:44:25 <Lyspooner> you should leverage it for more bitcoin related markets
1437 2010-11-29 22:45:03 <nelisky> it's the same base running bitcoinsportsbook.com, though that one isn't mine
1438 2010-11-29 22:45:12 <nelisky> I just developed and maintain
1439 2010-11-29 22:45:16 <Lyspooner> the difficulty bet was a good idea, it could have helped some of the miners
1440 2010-11-29 22:45:45 <nelisky> oh, you meant bsb from the start? :)
1441 2010-11-29 22:46:07 <Lyspooner> yeah
1442 2010-11-29 22:46:11 <nelisky> my code, not my idea... that's TTbit's creation
1443 2010-11-29 22:46:56 <theymos> My difficulty bet is not looking too good.
1444 2010-11-29 22:47:30 <Lyspooner> the difficulty bet is a great hedge for people investing in hardware to generate bitcoins
1445 2010-11-29 22:49:02 <andrew12> I like calling them money machines
1446 2010-11-29 22:49:20 <Lyspooner> ok
1447 2010-11-29 22:49:29 <andrew12> it's entertaining to me
1448 2010-11-29 22:49:38 <theymos> I bet in all of the BDF items with the assumption that difficulty would be over 15,000. I was way off there. I think I should at least nearly recoup my investment from the other bets, though.
1449 2010-11-29 22:49:40 <nelisky> well, there have been discussions on opening new betting lines for predicting difficulty
1450 2010-11-29 22:50:06 <nelisky> it is a great hedging vehicle, granted
1451 2010-11-29 22:50:09 <Lyspooner> was it difficulty by Dec 31?
1452 2010-11-29 22:50:14 <nelisky> yep
1453 2010-11-29 22:50:25 <nelisky> I completely failed to place any bets
1454 2010-11-29 22:50:26 <Lyspooner> so why do you think you're far off theymos
1455 2010-11-29 22:50:43 <theymos> Difficulty won't get beyond 10,000.
1456 2010-11-29 22:50:47 <theymos> (By then.)
1457 2010-11-29 22:51:11 <Lyspooner> 7902 for tomorrow
1458 2010-11-29 22:51:58 <theymos> Growth is slowing in generation as incentives disappear. It will level out at ~9000.
1459 2010-11-29 22:53:19 <Lyspooner> that's speculation on the price activity
1460 2010-11-29 22:53:44 <theymos> Difficulty is tied to price.
1461 2010-11-29 22:53:55 <Lyspooner> if bitcoins are worth .50 by christmas then the incentives won't have disappeared for some
1462 2010-11-29 22:54:04 <nelisky> well, maybe someone gets FPGA mining going and that might move things
1463 2010-11-29 22:54:17 <theymos> That won't happen. Want to bet 25 BTC on it?
1464 2010-11-29 22:54:27 <Lyspooner> give me odds
1465 2010-11-29 22:55:11 <nelisky> coin price by deadline is another bet line of use :)
1466 2010-11-29 22:55:21 <nelisky> gotta tell TTBit about it
1467 2010-11-29 22:55:32 <theymos> Lyspooner: For price or difficulty?
1468 2010-11-29 22:55:37 <Lyspooner> whichever
1469 2010-11-29 22:56:45 <theymos> 20:1 on sustained price of 0.5 by the end of the year. 3:1 on difficulty above 10,000. (My approximation.)
1470 2010-11-29 22:57:32 <andrew12> damn, blocks are generating a lot quicker than they were a while ago
1471 2010-11-29 22:57:33 <Lyspooner> my 25 BTC to your 500 (price) and to your 75 (difficulty)?
1472 2010-11-29 22:57:50 <andrew12> er, than they used to be
1473 2010-11-29 22:58:11 <andrew12> I could be wrong though
1474 2010-11-29 22:58:12 <andrew12> lol
1475 2010-11-29 22:58:31 <nelisky> seriously, do you guys want to settle that on bsb?
1476 2010-11-29 22:58:40 <theymos> Lyspooner: Sure. "Sustained at 0.5" means trades are taking place at that price on both MtGox and #bitcoin-otc.
1477 2010-11-29 22:58:42 <nathan7> :o
1478 2010-11-29 22:58:45 <nelisky> (assuming TTBit is interested)
1479 2010-11-29 22:59:20 <Lyspooner> i will do both trades with you
1480 2010-11-29 22:59:29 <nelisky> andew12: our bets are on!
1481 2010-11-29 22:59:44 <nelisky> that was andrew12: above
1482 2010-11-29 22:59:54 <andrew12> wat
1483 2010-11-29 22:59:57 <andrew12> oh yes
1484 2010-11-29 22:59:59 <andrew12> i noticed
1485 2010-11-29 23:00:10 <theymos> Lyspooner: OK; agreed. Shall we arrange an escrow for the funds?
1486 2010-11-29 23:00:19 <andrew12> an escrow?
1487 2010-11-29 23:00:44 <Lyspooner> i can just send you 50 right now
1488 2010-11-29 23:00:59 <Lyspooner> you are a pillar in the community
1489 2010-11-29 23:01:01 <andrew12> I can be the escrow if you want
1490 2010-11-29 23:01:21 <andrew12> (i googled the definition :p)
1491 2010-11-29 23:01:24 <theymos> Lyspooner: OK. 19W4WeBnBqzhd4YPo9XHCKf3AfnvUCje8c
1492 2010-11-29 23:01:33 <Lyspooner> you can sit in the corner andrew12 and let the grownups do some gambling
1493 2010-11-29 23:01:37 <andrew12> lol
1494 2010-11-29 23:01:42 <Lyspooner> ;)
1495 2010-11-29 23:02:13 <nelisky> ok, I'll take that as a no, theymos and Lyspooner :)
1496 2010-11-29 23:02:24 <nelisky> hehe
1497 2010-11-29 23:03:30 haikuginger has joined
1498 2010-11-29 23:03:36 <Lyspooner> theymos i send the coins tomorrow morning, ok?
1499 2010-11-29 23:03:40 <theymos> OK.
1500 2010-11-29 23:04:50 <Lyspooner> your price bet has negative gamma, be careful
1501 2010-11-29 23:06:14 <theymos> I don't gamble much. But I consider that outcome completely inconcievable.
1502 2010-11-29 23:07:39 <Lyspooner> it's just that the closer the price comes to 0.50, the more dollars you could end up losing
1503 2010-11-29 23:08:21 <theymos> Why?
1504 2010-11-29 23:08:51 <anarchyx> i will do bets against anyone that thinks it will be below 10k :)
1505 2010-11-29 23:08:53 <Lyspooner> i meant to say that the higher the price goes above 0.50, the higher amount of dollars you end up losing
1506 2010-11-29 23:09:21 <theymos> Ah. I have enough BTC that it won't matter to me.
1507 2010-11-29 23:09:31 <Lyspooner> ok
1508 2010-11-29 23:09:41 <Lyspooner> then you're hedged
1509 2010-11-29 23:10:00 <anarchyx> how much btc you got?
1510 2010-11-29 23:10:15 <anarchyx> im getting close to 10k
1511 2010-11-29 23:10:50 <theymos> A lot. I've been generating constantly since block 38,000.
1512 2010-11-29 23:11:13 <andrew12> theymos: how quickly?
1513 2010-11-29 23:11:27 <andrew12> (how many hashes/sec)
1514 2010-11-29 23:12:10 <theymos> 2000. This was a ton back when the difficulty was ~1.
1515 2010-11-29 23:12:53 <theymos> Thats khash/s.
1516 2010-11-29 23:13:06 <nelisky> hehe, how quickly one feels old
1517 2010-11-29 23:13:16 <andrew12> what exactly does the difficulty mean anyways?
1518 2010-11-29 23:13:31 <nelisky> I remember when I first started it was 40 some
1519 2010-11-29 23:13:33 <theymos> andrew12: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=difficulty
1520 2010-11-29 23:14:04 <nelisky> and the next day it was 181
1521 2010-11-29 23:14:22 <tylergillies> andrew12: how hard it is to generate a block
1522 2010-11-29 23:14:22 <Lyspooner> nelisky that was the single biggest jump
1523 2010-11-29 23:14:25 <nelisky> I did come from slashdot, so I guess that was to be expected
1524 2010-11-29 23:14:34 <andrew12> tylergillies: well I know that
1525 2010-11-29 23:14:43 <anarchyx> if difficulty goes beyond 10k/15k - will it increase bitcoins price?
1526 2010-11-29 23:14:44 <Lyspooner> anybody else come from marginal revolution?
1527 2010-11-29 23:15:18 <Lyspooner> difficulty doesn't increase the price of bitcoins, but they are positively correlated
1528 2010-11-29 23:15:19 <theymos> anarchyx: It runs generally in line with price. Generators are paying for BTC with electricity instead of dollars.
1529 2010-11-29 23:16:43 <anarchyx> is there a graph with difficulty + price?
1530 2010-11-29 23:16:45 <tylergillies> anarchyx: "price" is dictated by the market
1531 2010-11-29 23:17:36 <tcatm> is there a table with difficulty vs time?
1532 2010-11-29 23:17:42 <anarchyx> of course, but im wondering how much the diffuculty has an effect on price
1533 2010-11-29 23:17:54 <nelisky> tcatm: http://nullvoid.org/bitcoin/difficultiez.php
1534 2010-11-29 23:18:28 <Lyspooner> tcatm will throw something together, just watch
1535 2010-11-29 23:19:01 <tcatm> I have a good source for price vs time ;)
1536 2010-11-29 23:19:36 necrodearia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1537 2010-11-29 23:24:50 haikuginger has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1538 2010-11-29 23:25:37 <jgarzik> tcatm: get difficulty via 'getblock'
1539 2010-11-29 23:26:06 <jgarzik> tcatm: for ($blk = 0; $blk < $current_height; $blk++)    gives you difficulty over time
1540 2010-11-29 23:26:40 <Lyspooner> can you just run a corellation without plotting anything?
1541 2010-11-29 23:26:44 <jgarzik> Lyspooner: props to MR
1542 2010-11-29 23:26:46 <Lyspooner> correlation*
1543 2010-11-29 23:26:51 <tcatm> Lyspooner: ?
1544 2010-11-29 23:28:21 <Lyspooner> tcatm, do what you were doing, don't pay attention to me
1545 2010-11-29 23:28:47 <Lyspooner> jgarzik, i followed up with tyler two days ago about bitcoin, and he shooed me away
1546 2010-11-29 23:28:59 <Lyspooner> "it's too complicated for me" he said in a one-line response
1547 2010-11-29 23:29:33 <Lyspooner> :(
1548 2010-11-29 23:33:18 necrodearia has joined
1549 2010-11-29 23:33:33 <jgarzik> Lyspooner: heh, it's brain melting even for economists :)
1550 2010-11-29 23:33:57 <jgarzik> Lyspooner: surely there's a PhD thesis in bitcoin, somewhere, for an enterprising student
1551 2010-11-29 23:34:00 <Lyspooner> it's just a shame since he's the one who brought me to bitcoin before slashdot
1552 2010-11-29 23:34:14 <Lyspooner> and now he doesn't care
1553 2010-11-29 23:34:32 davux has left ()
1554 2010-11-29 23:34:34 <Lyspooner> i offered him 50 btc as a token of appreciation
1555 2010-11-29 23:35:04 <Lyspooner> didn't take it
1556 2010-11-29 23:36:38 sgornick1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1557 2010-11-29 23:39:01 sgornick has joined
1558 2010-11-29 23:39:19 <JudStephenson> anybody got 0.3.17 to compile on a mac?
1559 2010-11-29 23:42:02 <anarchyx> Lyspooner: im sure he will take you up on that offer again a couple of years from now when you can buy a house with that amount ;)
1560 2010-11-29 23:42:47 <Lyspooner> the offer is withdrawn!  he can clean my house for .005 btc/year with his attitude
1561 2010-11-29 23:45:54 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/diff_vs_price.png
1562 2010-11-29 23:46:31 <tcatm> It's a bit skewed as I'm not weighting price by volume..
1563 2010-11-29 23:47:01 <Lyspooner> you should also check out price v  log diff
1564 2010-11-29 23:48:00 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/logdiff_vs_price.png
1565 2010-11-29 23:50:02 <Lyspooner> what is the correlation
1566 2010-11-29 23:51:13 <tcatm> Not a simple function...
1567 2010-11-29 23:52:56 <Lyspooner> corr(price,diff) = cov(price,diff)/(stdev(price)*stdev(diff))
1568 2010-11-29 23:54:09 davux has joined
1569 2010-11-29 23:54:11 <davux> hi
1570 2010-11-29 23:54:31 <tcatm> Lyspooner: i have no function to compare it to
1571 2010-11-29 23:54:51 <davux> i requested bitcoins from the TEST faucet but I didn't receive them... any way to track this down?
1572 2010-11-29 23:55:10 <theymos> davux: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/
1573 2010-11-29 23:55:36 <theymos> Enter your test address and see if coins are credited to you.
1574 2010-11-29 23:55:39 <davux> thanks theymos!
1575 2010-11-29 23:55:40 Toadyonps3 has joined
1576 2010-11-29 23:55:50 <davux> strange, they weren't sent
1577 2010-11-29 23:56:54 <Lyspooner> tcatm i'm not sure what you mean
1578 2010-11-29 23:56:55 <gavinandresen> davux: try again, let me know if it doesn't work again.  Maybe I broke the TEST faucet
1579 2010-11-29 23:57:09 <tcatm> Lyspooner: how would you want to calculate the correlation?
1580 2010-11-29 23:57:26 <davux> gavinandresen: this time it works
1581 2010-11-29 23:58:12 <davux> gavinandresen: can you please check how many requests you had for mkTTSa6zpmQNFqSzMsyYaCbg8GKUE7nUKQ?
1582 2010-11-29 23:58:20 <gavinandresen> davux: sure, one sec
1583 2010-11-29 23:58:42 <Lyspooner> you've got prices with corresponding difficulties.  that's enough to find the correlation coefficient
1584 2010-11-29 23:59:05 <tcatm> How do I find it?