1 2010-12-02 00:00:03 <jgarzik> sure
   2 2010-12-02 00:00:09 <nelisky> tcatm: nice
   3 2010-12-02 00:00:12 * jgarzik only cares about user experience, which MUST BE SIMPLE.
   4 2010-12-02 00:00:19 <xelister> indeed
   5 2010-12-02 00:00:25 <donpdonp> what are people's preferred libertyreserve exchanger - for use with mtgox?
   6 2010-12-02 00:00:38 <jgarzik> basic experience must be -- take picture, click agree/disagree
   7 2010-12-02 00:01:05 <tcatm> First step: Solid multi-user webinterface for bitcoind.
   8 2010-12-02 00:01:16 <nelisky> the processor needs to have a way of dealing with registration and phone auth. A simple auth token from the phone would suffiss
   9 2010-12-02 00:01:22 <tcatm> I'll start coding that this weekend.
  10 2010-12-02 00:01:23 <nelisky> and do everything over https
  11 2010-12-02 00:01:23 <doublec> I've updated the remote pool server to the latest software in the forums. If anyone's involved in the pooled mining you might want to update your client to take advantage of the changes.
  12 2010-12-02 00:01:28 * grondilu doesn't give a s..t about user experience.
  13 2010-12-02 00:01:47 <xelister> grondilu: that is a bad approach
  14 2010-12-02 00:02:07 <nelisky> btw, this doesn't even need bitcoind interfacing
  15 2010-12-02 00:02:15 <nelisky> but it could, of course
  16 2010-12-02 00:02:22 <donpdonp> i wish the current bitcoin client would have a confirmation screen before sending coin. a typo would be ouch!
  17 2010-12-02 00:02:42 <nelisky> all payment done using other merchants, which are already established and have proper apis
  18 2010-12-02 00:03:44 <xelister> User photos QR code, "Confirm sending 150BTC to 'CaffeeFoo INC.' - England, London, WarIsPeace st. 3/5"?
  19 2010-12-02 00:04:08 <xelister> click YES.  Then the merchant, on his www browser, sees that customer 12345 did in fact payed 150 BTC, right?
  20 2010-12-02 00:04:20 <nelisky> hmmm, the only caveat is receipt. We need to keep these transactions logged
  21 2010-12-02 00:04:41 <xelister> well the QR could include: merchant, product, price, and given selected customer
  22 2010-12-02 00:04:42 <jgarzik> it would be nice if mybitcoin.com or mtgox.com had a 100% unattended BTC transfer API.  requires an existing mtgox or mybitcoin account, obviously.
  23 2010-12-02 00:04:56 <xelister> if it is just first 1..3 elements, without the customer, then the QR codes could be just printed
  24 2010-12-02 00:04:57 <jgarzik> -slightly- different experience than the existing payment APIs, which require a web browser and are not 100% API.
  25 2010-12-02 00:05:00 <nelisky> xelister: yeah, and a push interface could be done to tell merchant about transfers
  26 2010-12-02 00:05:03 <xelister> but including customer id sounds better
  27 2010-12-02 00:05:04 <xelister> yes
  28 2010-12-02 00:06:39 <nelisky> I'm sure both mtgox and mybitcoin are open to tweaks to the api
  29 2010-12-02 00:06:53 <nelisky> the only thing I don't see is profit
  30 2010-12-02 00:07:04 <nelisky> for the merchant, they sell
  31 2010-12-02 00:07:12 <nelisky> for the users, they buy
  32 2010-12-02 00:07:28 <nelisky> but using processors would imply they take a cut, no?
  33 2010-12-02 00:07:44 <nelisky> maybe just getting more users in the system is enough
  34 2010-12-02 00:08:10 <Kiba> mtgox makes it money from currency market
  35 2010-12-02 00:08:16 <Kiba> mybitcoin...don't have a business model
  36 2010-12-02 00:08:56 <tcatm> You could make money from additional features.
  37 2010-12-02 00:09:27 <tcatm> Like a weekly/monthly payment limit.
  38 2010-12-02 00:09:37 <nelisky> tcatm: "you", I, the gateway processor, don't really need a profit at this stage
  39 2010-12-02 00:09:53 <nelisky> I'm sure merchant accounts with added features can exist later in the game
  40 2010-12-02 00:09:59 <nelisky> but mybitcoin...
  41 2010-12-02 00:10:16 <tcatm> Who runs mybitcoin?
  42 2010-12-02 00:10:28 <nelisky> we all do this for fun, but it is utmost important to stay profitable, or services simply disappear overnight
  43 2010-12-02 00:11:12 <Kiba> we will need to blacklist people who run home to their mama(the state)
  44 2010-12-02 00:11:14 theymos has joined
  45 2010-12-02 00:11:34 <theymos> Anyone know the hash of the overflow transaction(s)?
  46 2010-12-02 00:11:51 <tcatm> What are overflow transactions?
  47 2010-12-02 00:12:20 <theymos> The transactions that forced the upgrade to 0.3.9.
  48 2010-12-02 00:12:55 <Kiba> any words on the forum backup?
  49 2010-12-02 00:13:26 <tcatm> 0000000000790ab3f22ec756ad43b6ab569abf0bddeb97c67a6f7b1470a7ec1c
  50 2010-12-02 00:13:41 <tcatm> That's the block.
  51 2010-12-02 00:13:53 <tcatm> TX: 1d5e512a9723cbef373b970eb52f1e9598ad67e7408077a82fdac194b65333c9
  52 2010-12-02 00:14:18 <theymos> Thanks.
  53 2010-12-02 00:15:25 <mtgox> jgarzik: what do you mean sending to some random BTC address? I do that
  54 2010-12-02 00:16:14 <Kiba> mtgox: hey, your merchant service is not working for me
  55 2010-12-02 00:16:21 <Kiba> notify_url isn't contacted
  56 2010-12-02 00:16:32 <mtgox> email me your code
  57 2010-12-02 00:16:43 <Kiba> ...ok
  58 2010-12-02 00:16:53 <Kiba> mtgox: um, my code send it to your site
  59 2010-12-02 00:17:02 <Kiba> successfully
  60 2010-12-02 00:18:08 <tcatm> nelisky: Where should we start?
  61 2010-12-02 00:18:40 <nelisky> so, I don't have the phone yet, and won't till late next week
  62 2010-12-02 00:18:50 <Kiba> https://gist.github.com/724509
  63 2010-12-02 00:18:52 <Kiba> here is my code
  64 2010-12-02 00:19:00 <nelisky> but we can skip the qr reading as it will be an encoded string anyhow
  65 2010-12-02 00:19:06 <grondilu> join #1gGold-auction to buy a 1g mini gold bar before block 95,000.  10 blocks to go.  fergalish leads with 225 BTC
  66 2010-12-02 00:19:08 <tcatm> Phone comes last...
  67 2010-12-02 00:19:40 <tcatm> I think we should work on an API that a payment processor needs to support to communicate with the phone.
  68 2010-12-02 00:20:05 mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  69 2010-12-02 00:20:13 <nelisky> both parties (buyer and seller) need to have an account at mybitcoin or mtgox
  70 2010-12-02 00:20:42 <tcatm> Or another payment processor.
  71 2010-12-02 00:20:44 <Kiba> there need to be an inter-bank transfer system
  72 2010-12-02 00:20:52 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  73 2010-12-02 00:21:05 <nelisky> tcatm: yes, start by defining the API from the pay proc seems correct
  74 2010-12-02 00:21:25 <tcatm> Everything should be based on bitcoin addresses and it shouldn't matter which payment processor the user is using.
  75 2010-12-02 00:21:56 <nelisky> tcatm: I would think not... unless we want to create our own mybitcoin
  76 2010-12-02 00:21:59 <Kiba> mtgox: seen it?
  77 2010-12-02 00:22:17 <Kiba> mtgox: the way I test it is used my account to send it to itself
  78 2010-12-02 00:22:26 <Diablo-D3> LobsterMan: hey you
  79 2010-12-02 00:22:35 <xelister> how to seen blocks/coins that where almost generated, but where decided to be NOT confirmed (i.e. tree collision) and therefore removed after all?
  80 2010-12-02 00:22:39 <nelisky> tcatm: I would not go that route, really
  81 2010-12-02 00:22:42 <Diablo-D3> LobsterMan: learn java so you can figure out why -Dfoo=bar fails
  82 2010-12-02 00:23:01 darrob has joined
  83 2010-12-02 00:23:14 <LobsterMan> :P
  84 2010-12-02 00:23:18 <LobsterMan> java is for scrubs
  85 2010-12-02 00:23:19 <nelisky> rather do mtgox:myuser pays to mybitcoin:themerchant X coins
  86 2010-12-02 00:23:22 <LobsterMan> real men use C :D
  87 2010-12-02 00:23:30 <xelister> LobsterMan: C is for people that like to waste time
  88 2010-12-02 00:23:30 <Diablo-D3> LobsterMan: I get nothing out of C
  89 2010-12-02 00:23:31 <LobsterMan> or python :3
  90 2010-12-02 00:23:34 <Diablo-D3> I wrote C for 10 years
  91 2010-12-02 00:23:36 <nelisky> although that also doesn't solve the latency
  92 2010-12-02 00:23:36 <tcatm> Why not? If we don't base it on bitcoin addresses it's not really bitcoin anymore but just something like paypal.
  93 2010-12-02 00:23:36 <xelister> with excuse of embbed devels
  94 2010-12-02 00:23:37 <LobsterMan> haha
  95 2010-12-02 00:23:40 <xelister> and kernel devels
  96 2010-12-02 00:23:40 <Diablo-D3> C buys me nothing vs a modern jvm
  97 2010-12-02 00:23:57 <jgarzik> mtgox: you have a payment-send API?  where mtgox user 'jgarzik' can send bitcoins to any random bitcoin address?
  98 2010-12-02 00:24:14 <jgarzik> mtgox: ...one that requires ZERO web interaction?
  99 2010-12-02 00:24:27 <jgarzik> ie. 100% API
 100 2010-12-02 00:24:33 <mtgox> you have to post to a URL but yeah
 101 2010-12-02 00:24:46 <nelisky> tcatm: ok, so do we accept the fact that payment is not immediate, then
 102 2010-12-02 00:24:52 <jgarzik> mtgox: awesome
 103 2010-12-02 00:24:54 <mtgox> last link on the trade API docs page
 104 2010-12-02 00:25:16 <nelisky> but that might not be a problem
 105 2010-12-02 00:25:33 <nelisky> we trust mtgox and mybitcoin, merchant trusts us
 106 2010-12-02 00:25:35 <nelisky> :)
 107 2010-12-02 00:25:46 <tcatm> nelisky: I still can be. The payment processor can detect he owns both addresses and return something like "fast confirmation" to the phone.
 108 2010-12-02 00:25:57 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 109 2010-12-02 00:26:22 <nelisky> tcatm: again, we are dup'ing what mybitcoin and mtgox already did
 110 2010-12-02 00:26:34 <nelisky> we don't need to "own" any address at all
 111 2010-12-02 00:26:40 <nelisky> we can, still
 112 2010-12-02 00:28:30 <jgarzik> phone just needs to remotely connect to $SomeService, where user holds bitcoins, to tell $SomeService to send bitcoins $ElseWhere.  $SomeService can be mtgox or bitcoind, it sounds like.  I don't see mybitcoin API for payments.
 113 2010-12-02 00:28:51 <jgarzik> phone needs to store auth info securely
 114 2010-12-02 00:28:55 <Diablo-D3> clearly, this is the end of the world
 115 2010-12-02 00:29:00 <Diablo-D3> dolly the sheep is still alive
 116 2010-12-02 00:29:04 <tcatm> $ElseWhere should be any bitcoin address.
 117 2010-12-02 00:29:09 <jgarzik> correct
 118 2010-12-02 00:29:31 <tcatm> For most payments we could hide them behind meaningful labels, though.
 119 2010-12-02 00:29:41 <nelisky> $SomeService can be mtgox or processor wallet
 120 2010-12-02 00:29:47 <nelisky> ok
 121 2010-12-02 00:29:50 <mtgox> nelisky: why do you trust mybitcoin?
 122 2010-12-02 00:29:55 <jgarzik> QR-code should give you meaningful label
 123 2010-12-02 00:30:02 <jgarzik> for bitcoin addresss
 124 2010-12-02 00:30:04 <mtgox> has anyone ever talked to the people that run taht site?
 125 2010-12-02 00:30:13 <nelisky> mtgox: I don't, never used it, started creating a concurrent service and all
 126 2010-12-02 00:30:20 <jgarzik> mtgox: they answer queries via email, but overall, are very mysterious
 127 2010-12-02 00:30:31 <nelisky> its just a sounding brand
 128 2010-12-02 00:30:47 <nelisky> ok, mtgox is the main processor for the start phase :)
 129 2010-12-02 00:30:56 <Kiba> mybitcoin..mysterious indeed
 130 2010-12-02 00:31:03 <nelisky> I can get this running on taabl too :)
 131 2010-12-02 00:31:08 <Kiba> we have two mystery
 132 2010-12-02 00:31:10 <Kiba> Satoshi
 133 2010-12-02 00:31:11 <nelisky> pay coffee with lottery earnings
 134 2010-12-02 00:31:12 <Kiba> and mybitcoin
 135 2010-12-02 00:31:13 <jgarzik> nelisky: mybitcoin doesn't have payment API, so they are not qualified anyway :)
 136 2010-12-02 00:31:18 <mtgox> heh, I was actually curious
 137 2010-12-02 00:31:34 <nelisky> jgarzik: ok, no more mybitcoin rambling from me
 138 2010-12-02 00:32:02 <jgarzik> mtgox: I have talked to mysterious "first names" who answer mybitcoin support emails, about subjects such as running a mybitcoin.com clone on testnet
 139 2010-12-02 00:32:08 <nelisky> So, merchant want to charge, sends a request to create a QR code (merchant can be any user, btw)
 140 2010-12-02 00:32:14 <tcatm> I'd rather write a lighweigth bitcoind<-api->phone daemon to verify the API works.
 141 2010-12-02 00:32:25 <jgarzik> mtgox: sandbox.mybitcoin.com would permit easy testing, without loss of money.  (or sandbox.mtgox.com I guess)
 142 2010-12-02 00:32:53 <jgarzik> tcatm: bitcoind API means every phone user must have their own bitcoind.  not as scalable as using mtgox
 143 2010-12-02 00:32:56 <nelisky> I have python code to interface with bitcoind
 144 2010-12-02 00:33:08 <jgarzik> tcatm: it will be useful for tech geeks like me, sure
 145 2010-12-02 00:33:17 <nelisky> but I don't think that is what we aim to do
 146 2010-12-02 00:33:28 <nelisky> we want merchants to easily accept bitcoins, right?
 147 2010-12-02 00:33:31 <tcatm> jgarzik: mtgox would use the same API
 148 2010-12-02 00:33:52 <jgarzik> tcatm: you mean add another API to bitcoind, for authentication multi-user use?
 149 2010-12-02 00:33:57 <nelisky> tcatm: mtgox <- api -> phone :)
 150 2010-12-02 00:33:58 <jgarzik> authenticated
 151 2010-12-02 00:33:59 <tcatm> It will be something like "sendto address" "getbalance" "listtransactions".
 152 2010-12-02 00:34:14 <tcatm> Yes, basically authenticated multi-user json-rpc.
 153 2010-12-02 00:34:37 <jgarzik> tcatm: so you're adding a password database to bitcoind?
 154 2010-12-02 00:34:58 <tcatm> Nope, it would be a special daemon that runs as a seperate process.
 155 2010-12-02 00:36:36 <nelisky> hmmm, here's what I was thinking initially: auth would be handled by sending a hashed user+pass to the appropriate processor, i.e. mtgox. So you register *on the phone* and the requests will have the encrypted token. The gateway just generates QR code and sends the pay orders to mtgox
 156 2010-12-02 00:36:50 <nelisky> no storing of user data whatsoever
 157 2010-12-02 00:37:04 <tcatm> I was thinking of something similiar.
 158 2010-12-02 00:37:26 <jgarzik> nelisky: mtgox requires user+pass over SSL, so you'd need to store (or retrieve) that auth info
 159 2010-12-02 00:37:50 <nelisky> so the qr code has merchant:value:someuniqueid:notes
 160 2010-12-02 00:37:57 <tcatm> We shouldn't focus too much on being compatible with what mtgox already have.
 161 2010-12-02 00:38:20 <tcatm> But still user+pass over SSL sounds like good solution.
 162 2010-12-02 00:38:36 <nelisky> jgarzik: but we can ask mtgox to pass a salt and accept the encoded password with that salt for a limited time or number of requests
 163 2010-12-02 00:38:52 <jgarzik> Amazon S3 uses HMAC(password + transaction data)==hash authentication, which works well over HTTP[S]
 164 2010-12-02 00:38:55 <tcatm> Would allow to use multiple wallets/payment processors on one phone.
 165 2010-12-02 00:39:25 <nelisky> solutions abound, but we need to decide initial target, I guess
 166 2010-12-02 00:39:34 <jgarzik> nelisky: bingo :)
 167 2010-12-02 00:39:41 <jgarzik> or "jackpot!"
 168 2010-12-02 00:39:55 <nelisky> jgarzik: I miss having time for bingo
 169 2010-12-02 00:40:25 <nelisky> so, mtgox already accepts user+pass over ssl, we can just proxy that from the phone
 170 2010-12-02 00:40:28 <nelisky> no need to store
 171 2010-12-02 00:40:34 <jgarzik> initial target can certainly be a separate process, as tcatm suggests.  But, you're shutting yourself away from lots of test users by creating brand new interface, and avoiding mtgox.
 172 2010-12-02 00:40:48 <nelisky> the phone app will know how to talk to gateway, and gateway to processor and merchant
 173 2010-12-02 00:41:03 <tcatm> Once the API is well defined and tested it should be simple for mtgox to add it.
 174 2010-12-02 00:41:31 <nelisky> tcatm: the api between phone and gateway, sure
 175 2010-12-02 00:41:42 <jgarzik> so think about all the steps user must undertake, to get payments working on phone.  Ideally it is (1) install app, (2) register on some website, (3) deposit bitcoins to website, (4) begin making phone payments.
 176 2010-12-02 00:41:44 <nelisky> but gateway can then talk any api processors provide
 177 2010-12-02 00:41:52 <jgarzik> mtgox gives you #2 and #3 for free
 178 2010-12-02 00:42:09 <nelisky> yes #2 and #3 are out of bounds for the gateway imho
 179 2010-12-02 00:42:12 grondilu has left ()
 180 2010-12-02 00:42:22 <nelisky> app allows user to pass credentials securely to gateway
 181 2010-12-02 00:42:29 <tcatm> What gateway?
 182 2010-12-02 00:42:34 <nelisky> we are the gateway
 183 2010-12-02 00:42:47 <nelisky> between phone, merchant and payment processors
 184 2010-12-02 00:42:50 <tcatm> I thought the phone would connect directly to mtgox or us.
 185 2010-12-02 00:43:02 <nelisky> phone = user, merchant = store, processor = mtgox
 186 2010-12-02 00:43:17 <nelisky> tcatm: that is possible but undercuts a bunch of possibilities
 187 2010-12-02 00:43:28 <nelisky> like merchants being informed of payments
 188 2010-12-02 00:43:36 <nelisky> by a trusted escrow (we)
 189 2010-12-02 00:43:58 <nelisky> this is not a mtgox phone interface, is a trusted platform for merchants
 190 2010-12-02 00:43:58 <jgarzik> nelisky: presumably if merchant accepts bitcoins, they have access to a notification service already
 191 2010-12-02 00:44:23 <nelisky> jgarzik: yes, you can try and explain how to the grocery store owner, I quit :)
 192 2010-12-02 00:44:56 <tcatm> The merchant will be notified when receiving the TX.
 193 2010-12-02 00:45:01 <nelisky> if there's a "company", i.e. trusted service, interfacing with the merchant, creating it's QR codes
 194 2010-12-02 00:45:11 <jgarzik> merchants will need some sort of gadgetry to display QR-codes, so it involves work on merchant's part no matter what.
 195 2010-12-02 00:45:12 <nelisky> what software does the merchant run, then?
 196 2010-12-02 00:45:29 <nelisky> yes, they use the gateway web account
 197 2010-12-02 00:45:30 <jgarzik> nelisky: probably whatever software comes with their Point Of Sale (POS) system.
 198 2010-12-02 00:45:49 <nelisky> jgarzik: another can of worms, here where I live
 199 2010-12-02 00:46:01 <jgarzik> nelisky: yes :)
 200 2010-12-02 00:46:01 <nelisky> we can provide them with that, using a simple web interface
 201 2010-12-02 00:46:05 <tcatm> QR codes could be generated manually from a bitcoin address and some textfield as label or by mtgox or another payment processor.
 202 2010-12-02 00:46:28 <jgarzik> initially the Point Of Sale terminal can be a computer, whose screen is facing the customer (to display QR-code)
 203 2010-12-02 00:47:03 <nelisky> so am i wrong to pursue the gateway approach?
 204 2010-12-02 00:47:04 <tcatm> Ideally a phone would be able to display a QR to make payments from phone to phone.
 205 2010-12-02 00:47:16 <nelisky> a webservice that talks to merchants, phones and processors?
 206 2010-12-02 00:47:23 <nelisky> tcatm: yep
 207 2010-12-02 00:47:34 <nelisky> using the gateway API :p
 208 2010-12-02 00:48:06 <nelisky> another point for the gateway: if new processors are added, we don't need to update every client
 209 2010-12-02 00:48:11 <nelisky> just the gateway
 210 2010-12-02 00:48:27 <nelisky> and if the code is open, multiple gateways can exist and talk to each other
 211 2010-12-02 00:48:31 <nelisky> making it p2p
 212 2010-12-02 00:48:41 <nelisky> AND REINVENT BITCOIN FOR MERCHANTS
 213 2010-12-02 00:48:42 <tcatm> A user would just change and URL like user+pass.
 214 2010-12-02 00:48:43 <nelisky> AND...
 215 2010-12-02 00:48:48 <nelisky> ok, I'm calm now
 216 2010-12-02 00:48:51 <tcatm> s/and/an/
 217 2010-12-02 00:49:28 <nelisky> I'm completely lost as to the scope of the project now
 218 2010-12-02 00:49:31 <tcatm> There could be a central list of common payment providers.
 219 2010-12-02 00:49:36 <nelisky> a phone interface for mtgox?
 220 2010-12-02 00:49:47 <xelister> jgarzik: heaving a pre-printed QR codes without the customer-ID part is also an option. Perhaps easier for some marchants
 221 2010-12-02 00:50:34 <nelisky> xelister: nice idea. A simple "price tag" and then a random payment receipt number is returned to the user
 222 2010-12-02 00:50:40 grondilu has joined
 223 2010-12-02 00:50:43 <nelisky> and the same is presented to the merchant
 224 2010-12-02 00:51:03 <nelisky> "here, this is my order confirmation, give me my coffee"
 225 2010-12-02 00:51:18 <tcatm> So you take a box from the shelf in a store, scan it's QR and pay?
 226 2010-12-02 00:51:22 grondilu has left ()
 227 2010-12-02 00:51:37 * nelisky likes that prospect a lot
 228 2010-12-02 00:51:49 <tcatm> Could be confusing for stores.
 229 2010-12-02 00:52:14 <jgarzik> tcatm: ...and not easily scalable for multiple products in 1 purchase?
 230 2010-12-02 00:52:15 <nelisky> sure, but then again we're talking about accepting a p2p crypto currency
 231 2010-12-02 00:52:22 <nelisky> why not?
 232 2010-12-02 00:52:23 <tcatm> How would the store know you already paid for a product?
 233 2010-12-02 00:52:34 <nelisky> the
 234 2010-12-02 00:52:35 <nelisky> gateway
 235 2010-12-02 00:52:36 <nelisky> web
 236 2010-12-02 00:52:38 <nelisky> interface
 237 2010-12-02 00:52:41 <nelisky> :)
 238 2010-12-02 00:52:46 <jgarzik> too complicated.  QR-code should be generated at cashier (checkout).
 239 2010-12-02 00:52:53 <jgarzik> can be printed, sure.
 240 2010-12-02 00:53:42 <tcatm> We should focus on one payment per QR (i.e. use a bitcoin address only once).
 241 2010-12-02 00:54:20 <Kiba> so now, I am the top poster on the forum
 242 2010-12-02 00:55:33 mtgox has quit ()
 243 2010-12-02 00:55:40 <nelisky> tcatm: are you thinking 1 QR -> 1 address?
 244 2010-12-02 00:55:47 <jgarzik> tcatm: yes. and the QR-code is a "payment request" not a "payment", so it might not even include a bitcoin address.  it might say "payment-request: merchant=1234; payment-processor=mtgox.com; amount=300; currency=BTC"
 245 2010-12-02 00:56:15 <nelisky> jgarzik: thats what I was aiming for, thank you
 246 2010-12-02 00:56:16 <jgarzik> QR-code can hold up to 4096 bytes, IIRC
 247 2010-12-02 00:56:43 <nelisky> you might need a transaction id there too
 248 2010-12-02 00:56:49 <jgarzik> yes
 249 2010-12-02 00:56:56 <nelisky> so receiving the 300btcs can be linked to the specific order
 250 2010-12-02 00:57:14 <jgarzik> transaction id / order number / merchant ref / etc.
 251 2010-12-02 00:57:26 <tcatm> So how would a payment work? Phone asks payment processor for an address, than makes payment?
 252 2010-12-02 00:57:43 <nelisky> then either the phone ap p knows how to talk to each processor or a gateway takes care of that interaction
 253 2010-12-02 00:58:00 <nelisky> former means merchant must have means to assert payment was actually done
 254 2010-12-02 00:58:14 <nelisky> latter we can push that information to the merchant
 255 2010-12-02 00:58:28 <jgarzik> tcatm: seems so.  Though, hmmm, that does add extra step due to lack of bitcoin address.  Some tech-savvy merchants may wish to generate new bitcoin address for each transaction, as previously noted, and use that to remove the extra step you just outlined.
 256 2010-12-02 00:58:56 <tcatm> Actually it might work very well.
 257 2010-12-02 00:59:08 <tcatm> As long as an URL to the payment processor the shop uses is included.
 258 2010-12-02 00:59:24 <nelisky> hmmm
 259 2010-12-02 00:59:38 <nelisky> does the QR code carry a payment processor?
 260 2010-12-02 00:59:48 <nelisky> isnt' that for the paying party
 261 2010-12-02 00:59:49 <nelisky> ?
 262 2010-12-02 01:00:01 <nelisky> user has account at mtgox, not necessarily merchant
 263 2010-12-02 01:00:05 <tcatm> Both could use a different payment processor.
 264 2010-12-02 01:00:16 <nelisky> merchant doesn't need to have processor at all, right?
 265 2010-12-02 01:00:22 <nelisky> just an address
 266 2010-12-02 01:00:29 <jgarzik> (1) "payment-request: merchant=1234; payment-processor=http://mtgox.com/apiv1; amount=300; currency=BTC" or (2) "payment-request: bitcoin_addr=1abcd1234; amount=300; name='My Bitcoin Inc.'"
 267 2010-12-02 01:01:07 <jgarzik> (1) "payment-request: merchant=1234; name='My Bitcoin Inc.'; tx_id=1234bacd; payment-processor=http://mtgox.com/apiv1; amount=300; currency=BTC" or (2) "payment-request: bitcoin_addr=1abcd1234; amount=300; name='My Bitcoin Inc.'"
 268 2010-12-02 01:01:08 <nelisky> then the app contacts the payment processor for the user (or gateway to do that for it) and the payment is sent
 269 2010-12-02 01:01:15 * jgarzik revises
 270 2010-12-02 01:01:18 <tcatm> The user has an account at mybitcoin and shop at mtgox. So the phone connects to mtgox and asks for an address to pay the shop. It could even transmit the label and add it to the shops transaction list.
 271 2010-12-02 01:02:28 <tcatm> Once the phone knows where to send the coins it asks the user for confirmation and instructs mybitcoin to send coins to address at mtgox.
 272 2010-12-02 01:02:57 <nelisky> what's txid in (1)?
 273 2010-12-02 01:03:30 <tcatm> Custom field I think. Something that'll appear in the shops account.
 274 2010-12-02 01:03:48 <nelisky> I like that
 275 2010-12-02 01:03:50 <nelisky> simple
 276 2010-12-02 01:04:21 <jgarzik> correct
 277 2010-12-02 01:04:36 <nelisky> so the app needs to pull bitcoin address from processor if not (2)
 278 2010-12-02 01:04:41 <jgarzik> correct
 279 2010-12-02 01:04:46 <nelisky> then feed that to it's own processor for payment
 280 2010-12-02 01:04:52 <nelisky> I feel an API being born
 281 2010-12-02 01:05:07 <nelisky> anyone taking notes? :)
 282 2010-12-02 01:05:10 * tcatm is drafting an API in another window
 283 2010-12-02 01:05:10 <jgarzik> I'll start a forum post.
 284 2010-12-02 01:05:55 * jgarzik is interested in working on specification of QR-code data
 285 2010-12-02 01:06:16 <nelisky> the app may know how to talk mtgox, but some "standard" api can be created so other processors can be added easily
 286 2010-12-02 01:06:23 <jgarzik> yep
 287 2010-12-02 01:06:35 <tcatm> Can the bitcoin wiki be used for drafting the API?
 288 2010-12-02 01:06:37 <nelisky> jgarzik: add an apiv field
 289 2010-12-02 01:06:49 <nelisky> api version
 290 2010-12-02 01:06:54 <jgarzik> tcatm: yes
 291 2010-12-02 01:07:08 <nelisky> like btc-1, or mtgox-1.5
 292 2010-12-02 01:07:15 <jgarzik> tcatm: could start with the page source of http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoins_draft_spec_0_0_1
 293 2010-12-02 01:07:28 <jgarzik> nelisky: yes.  I was just thinking the same thing.
 294 2010-12-02 01:07:47 <tcatm> There should only be one API.
 295 2010-12-02 01:07:57 <nelisky> yes, and one currency too
 296 2010-12-02 01:08:02 <nelisky> and a single OS
 297 2010-12-02 01:08:04 <nelisky> :p
 298 2010-12-02 01:08:07 <jgarzik> tcatm: disagree.  that's not reality.
 299 2010-12-02 01:08:42 <nelisky> if "SomeMajorProcessor" wants in, but has a well established API, I think we should be flexible
 300 2010-12-02 01:08:44 <brocktice> Isn't there already a uri on the forums?
 301 2010-12-02 01:08:51 <jgarzik> tcatm: a useful phone app will support multiple APIs... including existing APIs already deployed today.
 302 2010-12-02 01:09:01 <jgarzik> tcatm: you should define a preferred API, though
 303 2010-12-02 01:09:38 <nelisky> A simple web service needs to be created to render the QR code
 304 2010-12-02 01:09:43 <tcatm> At least a simple API that supports all essential features.
 305 2010-12-02 01:10:00 <jgarzik> if PayPal ever adds BTC as a currency, you will want to be able to support PayPal MassPay API.
 306 2010-12-02 01:10:08 <jgarzik> api=paypal in QR-code
 307 2010-12-02 01:10:39 <xelister> arent paypal jackasses?
 308 2010-12-02 01:10:41 <nelisky> jgarzik: we could even to automatic exchanges :)
 309 2010-12-02 01:10:48 <jgarzik> tcatm: yes, that's the "preferred API".  we can define "tcatm's payment request API" as the default API, when "api=" is missing from QR-code.
 310 2010-12-02 01:11:02 <jgarzik> the power of default
 311 2010-12-02 01:11:19 <nelisky> implicit knowledge...
 312 2010-12-02 01:11:30 * nelisky shivers
 313 2010-12-02 01:11:39 <Kiba> adobe flash sucks!
 314 2010-12-02 01:11:58 <jgarzik> it's our QR-code spec.  as a new spec, we can declare that tcatm's API is the best.
 315 2010-12-02 01:12:04 <jgarzik> :)
 316 2010-12-02 01:12:53 <tcatm> So we need to create two specs: 1) QR code and 2) Payment/Phone API
 317 2010-12-02 01:14:44 <jgarzik> tcatm: correct
 318 2010-12-02 01:15:07 <nelisky> for 2) I'd start by leveraging what mtgox already provides
 319 2010-12-02 01:17:30 <jgarzik> phone app should support mtgox API, definitely.  but mtgox API need not be the "preferred API", set in stone for all eternity...
 320 2010-12-02 01:18:48 <tcatm> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=phone_api
 321 2010-12-02 01:19:32 sgtstein has joined
 322 2010-12-02 01:20:28 <Kiba> how many blocks were generated each day again?
 323 2010-12-02 01:20:31 sgtstein has left ()
 324 2010-12-02 01:20:59 <tcatm> 144
 325 2010-12-02 01:21:00 <brocktice> supposed to be 144 Ithink
 326 2010-12-02 01:21:03 <xelister> 24*6 ?
 327 2010-12-02 01:21:24 <brocktice> hasn't been that for a while though
 328 2010-12-02 01:21:33 <Kiba> so that 7200 bitcoins
 329 2010-12-02 01:21:40 <jgarzik> tcatm: cool!  editing QR-code section...
 330 2010-12-02 01:22:22 <jgarzik> tcatm: ah, page is locked for editing by you.  will wait. :)
 331 2010-12-02 01:23:26 <jgarzik> btcpayment-request: merchant=1234; name="My Bitcoin Inc."; tx_id=1234bacd; payment-processor=http://mtgox.com/apiv1; api=mtgox; amount=300; currency=BTC
 332 2010-12-02 01:24:04 <jgarzik> btcpayment-request: name="My Bitcoin Inc."; tx_id=1234bacd; amount=300; btcaddr=1LGpwDU5djqsR1X14Tcass3y9fULTzxJq3
 333 2010-12-02 01:24:28 <nelisky> and this needs not be limited to the phone app. Add QR code generation to the api and the merchant's POS software will use it too
 334 2010-12-02 01:24:35 <jgarzik> and unrelated to merchants, we need a singleton bitcoin address QR-code,
 335 2010-12-02 01:24:44 <jgarzik> bitcoin_address: 1LGpwDU5djqsR1X14Tcass3y9fULTzxJq3
 336 2010-12-02 01:24:50 <nelisky> jgarzik: I was writing just that, damn
 337 2010-12-02 01:24:57 <tcatm> done editing. added phone app features section
 338 2010-12-02 01:25:00 <jgarzik> so that mobile phone users may easily exchange BTC addr
 339 2010-12-02 01:25:04 <nelisky> yep
 340 2010-12-02 01:25:17 <nelisky> add an iphone app, put it in both app stores
 341 2010-12-02 01:25:24 * jgarzik edits
 342 2010-12-02 01:25:32 <nelisky> and that is lots of visibility for bitcoins
 343 2010-12-02 01:25:59 <tcatm> Yes, it won't be limited to phones. Ideally also a desktop app will use it.
 344 2010-12-02 01:27:22 <nelisky> hmmm, but we can't have both parties run bcaddress directly
 345 2010-12-02 01:27:31 <nelisky> we need a volunteer processor for that
 346 2010-12-02 01:27:32 <tcatm> ?
 347 2010-12-02 01:27:40 <jgarzik> yes, nothing in QR-code or phone API spec _limits_ us to mobile phones.
 348 2010-12-02 01:27:45 <jgarzik> and that's good.
 349 2010-12-02 01:28:05 <nelisky> tcatm: send 50 from address 123123 to address adasd
 350 2010-12-02 01:28:08 <nelisky> now what?
 351 2010-12-02 01:28:31 <nelisky> the sender ALWAYS needs a processor
 352 2010-12-02 01:28:55 <nelisky> although I can get the app to talk to bitcoind if using a visible address :)
 353 2010-12-02 01:29:06 <tcatm> The phone will use the users processor to send bitcoins to adasd.
 354 2010-12-02 01:29:41 <nelisky> so the user always has to use a processor, check that
 355 2010-12-02 01:29:59 <tcatm> Yep.
 356 2010-12-02 01:30:06 <nelisky> I was thinking, two guys on the street, just bc addresses... but yeah, processor mandatory
 357 2010-12-02 01:30:17 <tcatm> It's basically a frontend to an online wallet.
 358 2010-12-02 01:30:20 <nelisky> again, it could talk to bitcoind directly, for advanced users
 359 2010-12-02 01:30:22 redMBA has joined
 360 2010-12-02 01:30:38 <nelisky> only over ssl, of course
 361 2010-12-02 01:30:53 <nelisky> ( that's working in bitcoind, right? )
 362 2010-12-02 01:31:31 <jgarzik> nelisky, tcatm: comments on http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=phone_api QR-codes?
 363 2010-12-02 01:31:31 <tcatm> That's where the proof-of-concept daemon will be handy. To glue a standard bitcoind to the phone.
 364 2010-12-02 01:31:56 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 365 2010-12-02 01:32:05 <nelisky> tcatm: granted, but lets not focus on that just now :)
 366 2010-12-02 01:32:22 <nelisky> tcatm: and the jsonrpc over ssl to own bitcoind works as well
 367 2010-12-02 01:32:25 <nelisky> almost for free
 368 2010-12-02 01:32:39 <tcatm> jgarzik: What about fields that are either mandotary or optional?
 369 2010-12-02 01:33:05 <tcatm> So QR Code 2 is a more specific versoin of Code 3
 370 2010-12-02 01:33:12 <nelisky> on phone api, send to address, the address may also come from QR
 371 2010-12-02 01:33:33 <nelisky> not necessarily from a processor, right?
 372 2010-12-02 01:33:48 <tcatm> right.
 373 2010-12-02 01:33:49 <jgarzik> nelisky: that's "btcpayment-request1"
 374 2010-12-02 01:34:13 <jgarzik> nelisky: the more generic "payment-request1" is where bitcoin address must be requested via API
 375 2010-12-02 01:34:32 <nelisky> jgarzik: on qr code section, sure, was looking at phone api for a textual description
 376 2010-12-02 01:35:09 <tcatm> nelisky: That's under App Features.
 377 2010-12-02 01:35:19 <tcatm> The API will only know how to send coins to some address.
 378 2010-12-02 01:35:32 <tcatm> And has a way to query a processor for an address to send to.
 379 2010-12-02 01:36:01 <nelisky> tcatm: roger, sorry for being dense
 380 2010-12-02 01:36:43 <nelisky> so we need to add that phone app stores auth for user
 381 2010-12-02 01:36:47 <tcatm> I also have some paymentprocessor2paymentprocessor API in mind where processors can trust each other for faster confirmations...
 382 2010-12-02 01:36:56 <nelisky> for multiple accounts / processors?
 383 2010-12-02 01:37:02 <jgarzik> tcatm: that would be interesting
 384 2010-12-02 01:37:23 <tcatm> But that's a different project ;)
 385 2010-12-02 01:38:10 sgtstein has joined
 386 2010-12-02 01:38:13 <tcatm> Still the API should support it so the processor really only returns whether a payment is confirmed or not.
 387 2010-12-02 01:38:13 sgtstein has left ()
 388 2010-12-02 01:38:41 <nelisky> ackd vs confirmed
 389 2010-12-02 01:38:42 <tcatm> nelisky: Yes. Multiple accounts at different processors should be possible.
 390 2010-12-02 01:39:30 <nelisky> so how does the merchant trust the payment again?
 391 2010-12-02 01:40:02 <nelisky> because we do it in person, I assume, no need to wait for confirmation
 392 2010-12-02 01:40:02 <tcatm> Once the merchant's payment processor shows the incoming TX as confirmed.
 393 2010-12-02 01:40:24 <nelisky> tcatm: and that is always almost immediate?
 394 2010-12-02 01:40:38 <nelisky> I never tried to understand how that worked
 395 2010-12-02 01:40:39 <tcatm> Which can be immediately if both are using the same processor.
 396 2010-12-02 01:40:49 <nelisky> the blocks and transactions sure
 397 2010-12-02 01:40:55 <tcatm> I.e. processor can just use the move-json call to move bitcoins.
 398 2010-12-02 01:41:13 <nelisky> tcatm: we can't assume or expect same processor
 399 2010-12-02 01:41:50 <tcatm> Then the processor waits for a few confirmations.
 400 2010-12-02 01:42:01 <nelisky> but we can give some feedback to the merchant via the user's processor
 401 2010-12-02 01:42:49 <nelisky> without any confirmation, how does bitcoin currently receive the immediate transfer ack?
 402 2010-12-02 01:42:54 <nelisky> the 0/unconfirmed?
 403 2010-12-02 01:43:05 <MT`AwAy> via P2P
 404 2010-12-02 01:43:09 <tcatm> TX spreading P2P.
 405 2010-12-02 01:43:22 <MT`AwAy> however it will not know if the transaction is really valid or not
 406 2010-12-02 01:43:26 <tcatm> The merchant should never have to trust the user.
 407 2010-12-02 01:43:36 <MT`AwAy> until it is included in a block, then when that block gets confirmed
 408 2010-12-02 01:43:51 bitplane has joined
 409 2010-12-02 01:43:55 <nelisky> can that tx carry any extra info?
 410 2010-12-02 01:44:03 <tcatm> If multiple processors are involved they might communicate with each other to notify of TXs.
 411 2010-12-02 01:44:04 <MT`AwAy> the only way is to have user & merchant use same gateway (merchants could support many gateways, or gateways could communicate)
 412 2010-12-02 01:44:06 <nelisky> like a token given by the QR?
 413 2010-12-02 01:44:11 <MT`AwAy> nelisky: it is possible, while currently unused
 414 2010-12-02 01:44:38 <nelisky> that just goes to the gateway idea I was pushing before
 415 2010-12-02 01:45:07 <nelisky> TX with transaction id generated by merchant would be enough in most low cost cases
 416 2010-12-02 01:45:22 <nelisky> all others can wait for however many confirmations
 417 2010-12-02 01:46:11 <nelisky> so although not used now, the API should provide a way to send that token, and use it to query the ack and confirmation number
 418 2010-12-02 01:46:12 <MT`AwAy> with things like mtgox there's no need to wait for anything, provided the customer already had the required amount
 419 2010-12-02 01:46:29 <nelisky> if user AND merchant are in mtgox, sure
 420 2010-12-02 01:46:49 <MT`AwAy> or if user is in mtgox, merchant at xxx and xxx/mtgox has a transaction transmission agreement
 421 2010-12-02 01:46:53 <nelisky> but we can't user that as the general case, we need to assume otherwise
 422 2010-12-02 01:47:18 <nelisky> user is mtgox, merchant is just an address, who know what processor, if any?
 423 2010-12-02 01:47:41 <nelisky> but if the TX message carries that token AND you saw the user snap the QR code
 424 2010-12-02 01:47:45 <nelisky> I think you're safe
 425 2010-12-02 01:47:46 mtgox has joined
 426 2010-12-02 01:47:48 <tcatm> My idea is like this: mybitcoin and mtgox trust each other. I'm using mybitcoin and sending coins to a merchant using mtgox. My phone will query mtgox for a address to send coins to. Then it will instruct mybitcoin to send coins to $address. It will also populate a field like dest_processor=mtgox. mybitcoin will then notify mtgox that there's going to be an transaction to $adress.
 427 2010-12-02 01:48:05 <MT`AwAy> no
 428 2010-12-02 01:48:07 <MT`AwAy> we can do better
 429 2010-12-02 01:48:15 <MT`AwAy> mh
 430 2010-12-02 01:49:02 <jgarzik> tcatm: lemme know when you're finished editing
 431 2010-12-02 01:49:09 <MT`AwAy> well, transactions could be backed by "trust", ie transactions emitted by mtgox could include a tag (ie, emitter=mtgox), and then receiver would be able to query internally an mtgox api with transaction hash to confirm mtgox backs that transaction
 432 2010-12-02 01:49:26 * jgarzik waves the trust flag at nanotube 
 433 2010-12-02 01:49:50 <MT`AwAy> this way there's no need for the phone to query mtgox
 434 2010-12-02 01:50:04 <MT`AwAy> and it could be used in other contexts too
 435 2010-12-02 01:50:12 <tcatm> jgarzik: oops sorry
 436 2010-12-02 01:50:17 <MT`AwAy> (ie. the bitcoin client could auto-confirm transactions this way)
 437 2010-12-02 01:51:09 <nelisky> right, the scope widens
 438 2010-12-02 01:51:40 <nelisky> backing up a step, if mtgox detects own addresses, then we're golden for the initial phase
 439 2010-12-02 01:51:57 <nelisky> a confirmation should rarely take more than 10 minutes
 440 2010-12-02 01:52:22 <tcatm> Yes, the processor is supposed to detect own addresses.
 441 2010-12-02 01:52:44 <nelisky> for larger amounts on the run (i.e. without being able to wait for confirmations) the merchant might demand a specific processor
 442 2010-12-02 01:52:57 <tcatm> json-rpc validateaddress can do that already.
 443 2010-12-02 01:53:06 <nelisky> maybe put that on the QR code? an optional 'allowed-merchants' field?
 444 2010-12-02 01:53:22 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
 445 2010-12-02 01:53:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 94995 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1772 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 16 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 9929.30671278
 446 2010-12-02 01:53:40 <anarchyx> O_o
 447 2010-12-02 01:53:54 <tcatm> nelisky: Maybe in the future...
 448 2010-12-02 01:54:50 <nelisky> now you'll make me grab the phone sooner... and I can't pay for it in bitcoins yet :)
 449 2010-12-02 01:54:52 <tcatm> Could be an optional datafield fast-confirmation-required.
 450 2010-12-02 01:55:11 <tcatm> Then the phone and processor will figure out if fast-confirmation is possible.
 451 2010-12-02 01:55:30 <nelisky> hmmm
 452 2010-12-02 01:55:44 <nelisky> for mtgox that would me 'is this address on your wallet?'
 453 2010-12-02 01:55:48 <nelisky> sounds good
 454 2010-12-02 01:57:36 <tcatm> If it's really important the merchants device and the phone will both communicate with their processor to make sure fast-confirmation under given conditions is possible.
 455 2010-12-02 01:58:29 <anarchyx> but when you send someone BTC they get notified in seconds right?
 456 2010-12-02 01:58:41 <anarchyx> the confirmation only happens on average 10 mins later
 457 2010-12-02 01:58:46 <tcatm> Yep.
 458 2010-12-02 01:58:49 <anarchyx> for small purchases this wouldnt be an issue
 459 2010-12-02 01:58:56 <anarchyx> you dont wonna fake bitcoin someone out of a coffee
 460 2010-12-02 01:59:04 <MT`AwAy> [10:58:18] <anarchyx> but when you send someone BTC they get notified in seconds right? <- sometimes
 461 2010-12-02 01:59:24 <nelisky> should we ping this rodin person that created the android bitcoin app in http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=533.0
 462 2010-12-02 01:59:25 <tcatm> We want to hide that from the users and still provide them with enough information to know when a payment is confirmed.
 463 2010-12-02 01:59:26 <nelisky> ?
 464 2010-12-02 01:59:26 <MT`AwAy> (well, most of the time for now, but there's no guarantee)
 465 2010-12-02 01:59:39 <nelisky> already has the know how...
 466 2010-12-02 02:00:37 <anarchyx> im just thinking that, the fewer persons involved, the better
 467 2010-12-02 02:01:01 <anarchyx> they can go after gateways etc, but if i do a direct transaction with you, thats undestructable
 468 2010-12-02 02:01:29 <anarchyx> so if i do a large purchase i dont mind waiting 10 mins
 469 2010-12-02 02:01:35 <tcatm> Well at least until everyhing is specced out..
 470 2010-12-02 02:01:42 <anarchyx> for coffee its not worth the counterfeiting
 471 2010-12-02 02:02:00 <anarchyx> right
 472 2010-12-02 02:03:09 <tcatm> A bit like satoshi worked on bitcoin a year before writing a single line of code... :)
 473 2010-12-02 02:05:09 <AAA_awright> Why is http://bitcoin.org/ redirecting to http://www.bitcoin.org/ ?
 474 2010-12-02 02:05:24 <kermit> bitcoin technologies might help make a p2p DNS http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/11/fed-up-with-icann-pirate-bay-cofounder-floats-p2p-dns-system.ars
 475 2010-12-02 02:05:25 <AAA_awright> meh
 476 2010-12-02 02:08:56 <AAA_awright> kermit: I've talked about a DNS system before... hard to do because you have to determine ownership somehow. What about a system where any number of people can claim http://google.com/ but a karma-based system of your friends determines the owner?
 477 2010-12-02 02:09:13 <AAA_awright> And resolves to http://google.com.k9872358972/ or something
 478 2010-12-02 02:09:43 <AAA_awright> Actually, the other way I talked about was first-come first-served ownership, and you develop a market
 479 2010-12-02 02:09:45 daveparrish has joined
 480 2010-12-02 02:10:22 <kermit> " because you have to determine ownership somehow. "  thats the key thing bitcoin does, though, thast why i mentioned it here.
 481 2010-12-02 02:11:14 <AAA_awright> Bitcoin determines ownership of... what?
 482 2010-12-02 02:11:26 <kermit> bitcoins
 483 2010-12-02 02:11:45 <AAA_awright> Ah right, and it's not voted on... or is it?
 484 2010-12-02 02:11:58 <AAA_awright> So how would you transfer this?
 485 2010-12-02 02:12:04 <kermit> its a little over my head technically, but i know it works
 486 2010-12-02 02:12:05 <AAA_awright> I mean hm
 487 2010-12-02 02:12:09 <AAA_awright> Yeah yeah
 488 2010-12-02 02:13:02 <AAA_awright> Domain names need to have a cost...
 489 2010-12-02 02:13:06 <AAA_awright> That's the problem
 490 2010-12-02 02:13:11 <AAA_awright> They are virtually free
 491 2010-12-02 02:13:13 <MT`AwAy> and domain names need to be unique
 492 2010-12-02 02:15:47 <xelister> AAA_awright: why not just auction
 493 2010-12-02 02:15:55 <xelister> everyone claims sex.com
 494 2010-12-02 02:16:07 <xelister> and then the person that gives the most after short auction time - wins
 495 2010-12-02 02:16:13 <jgarzik> tcatm, nelisky: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2038.0
 496 2010-12-02 02:16:21 <AAA_awright> xelister: Who gets it first?
 497 2010-12-02 02:16:28 <xelister> the one that pays the most
 498 2010-12-02 02:16:34 <AAA_awright> No, the money?
 499 2010-12-02 02:16:47 <xelister> the money is distributed between generators
 500 2010-12-02 02:16:53 <AAA_awright> Typically with property, you homestead. You simply use the land to own it
 501 2010-12-02 02:17:14 <AAA_awright> What is the DNS equivalant?
 502 2010-12-02 02:17:35 <xelister> if auction wins with cost X, then for next 30 days every generated blocks gets part of X as a bonus on top of normal 50
 503 2010-12-02 02:18:56 <nelisky> jgarzik: nice, so now we can render that QR for all sites that accept bitcoins
 504 2010-12-02 02:19:06 <AAA_awright> So a DNS system on top of Bitcoin?
 505 2010-12-02 02:19:10 * AAA_awright mind blown
 506 2010-12-02 02:19:50 <xelister> and say, to prolong a domain, each year new auction is started, unless the current owner pays X*((100-year_passed)/100) to prolong it for next year
 507 2010-12-02 02:20:12 <xelister> or say,  X*((10-years)/10)
 508 2010-12-02 02:20:51 * jgarzik renames s/bitcoin-address/bitcoin-address1/, to add versioning
 509 2010-12-02 02:20:58 <jgarzik> nelisky: yep, bitcoin-address1 could be used right now
 510 2010-12-02 02:21:22 <nelisky> so the phone app would be useful even without merchants
 511 2010-12-02 02:21:40 <nelisky> and help getting 'regular joe' kind of users into this more easily
 512 2010-12-02 02:22:20 <AAA_awright> xelister: So you can only rent domain names?
 513 2010-12-02 02:23:34 <xelister> AAA_awright: yes
 514 2010-12-02 02:23:40 <AAA_awright> Hmm
 515 2010-12-02 02:23:48 <xelister> as it is in real world
 516 2010-12-02 02:23:49 <AAA_awright> That would make it so no one could lose their private key
 517 2010-12-02 02:23:53 <AAA_awright> No
 518 2010-12-02 02:23:55 <tcatm> Are QR codes just an ASCII string?
 519 2010-12-02 02:23:57 <AAA_awright> Real world is bad and not a free market
 520 2010-12-02 02:24:08 <xelister> well... above seems to be a free market
 521 2010-12-02 02:24:14 <AAA_awright> You can't "own" IP addresses which is why we have the shortage issue
 522 2010-12-02 02:24:18 <AAA_awright> As I describe in http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1884.0
 523 2010-12-02 02:24:50 <AAA_awright> xelister: Have you seen that? That's something that would benefit the community even more than DDNS
 524 2010-12-02 02:24:55 <AAA_awright> (I think)
 525 2010-12-02 02:27:03 <xelister> AAA_awright: btw, generating own addresses is done by tor and freenet
 526 2010-12-02 02:27:13 <xelister> but this are not user readable/nice ones
 527 2010-12-02 02:27:24 mtve has joined
 528 2010-12-02 02:27:39 <tcatm> jgarzik: Is there any encoding (like JSON or XML) we could use to specify what an QR code can contain?
 529 2010-12-02 02:28:25 <jgarzik> tcatm: nothing standard, so I picked HTTP-like (RFC822-like) string
 530 2010-12-02 02:28:34 <AAA_awright> xelister: Has anyone implemented IP on top of Freenet or Tor?
 531 2010-12-02 02:28:43 <AAA_awright> Tor only implements TCP
 532 2010-12-02 02:28:46 <jgarzik> tends to be slightly more compact than JSON.  much more compact than XML.
 533 2010-12-02 02:28:50 <AAA_awright> And requires IP anyways
 534 2010-12-02 02:29:12 <AAA_awright> Can someone implement IP over Tor, and implement Tor over Ethernet?
 535 2010-12-02 02:29:24 <AAA_awright> So then we just use public keys as IP addresses?
 536 2010-12-02 02:29:27 <tcatm> Yes, the format is okay. It's just that we should document it somewhere.
 537 2010-12-02 02:29:53 <jgarzik> AAA_awright: something like your forum post would have higher latency, so I would look at larger messages and well defined message boundaries (something TCP lacks)
 538 2010-12-02 02:30:09 <xelister> AAA_awright: freenet is storage network, so no.  i2p offers TCP tunnels.
 539 2010-12-02 02:30:14 <jgarzik> tcatm: I'll look up the RFC reference
 540 2010-12-02 02:30:21 <xelister> AAA_awright: you can tunnel any-IP inside TCP and send that over TOR I belie
 541 2010-12-02 02:30:36 <AAA_awright> I think it's TCP only
 542 2010-12-02 02:30:53 <xelister> yes, but you can /tunnel/ anything into TCP connection over TOR
 543 2010-12-02 02:30:58 <AAA_awright> Why would this have higher latency?
 544 2010-12-02 02:31:11 <AAA_awright> Routers would cache the fastest route (presumably)
 545 2010-12-02 02:31:14 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 546 2010-12-02 02:31:20 <AAA_awright> Who knows what algroithms they would use to find the best route
 547 2010-12-02 02:31:36 <xelister> AAA_awright: you mean TOR over hidden-services?
 548 2010-12-02 02:31:50 <AAA_awright> Uh... Similar to accessing a Tor hidden service yeah
 549 2010-12-02 02:31:52 <xelister> I guess... perhaps why not
 550 2010-12-02 02:32:10 <AAA_awright> I think it's Tor not TOR
 551 2010-12-02 02:32:11 <xelister> so like, packet from=vxh2g3vas34b3sdf2.onion to=gihbe14er3tt3.onion ?
 552 2010-12-02 02:32:21 <AAA_awright> xelister: Right
 553 2010-12-02 02:32:23 <xelister> I guess it should work, ys
 554 2010-12-02 02:32:24 <xelister> yes
 555 2010-12-02 02:32:37 <xelister> ofcourse it would be slow (latencies around 15-30 ms probably)
 556 2010-12-02 02:32:42 <xelister> 15-30 sec
 557 2010-12-02 02:33:39 <xelister> ok but at some point it shoud be IP to be compatible with existing programs, firewalls etc
 558 2010-12-02 02:33:42 <AAA_awright> Why so slow?
 559 2010-12-02 02:33:56 <AAA_awright> You could implement a compatability layer
 560 2010-12-02 02:33:59 <xelister> this is how Tor and i2p work. Freenet is slower. Lower speed is price of anonimity
 561 2010-12-02 02:34:11 <tcatm> jgarzik: Why is bitcoin-address1: called pubkey and bitcoin_addr for btcpayment-request1?
 562 2010-12-02 02:34:21 <AAA_awright> Perhaos you allocate a /120 IPv6 address and use the rest of the bytes to the public key hash
 563 2010-12-02 02:34:34 <xelister> tor key is very long
 564 2010-12-02 02:34:42 <xelister> longer then ipv6
 565 2010-12-02 02:34:47 <AAA_awright> Using SHA1 would be 320 bits
 566 2010-12-02 02:35:10 <AAA_awright> It would triple the length of an IPv6 header
 567 2010-12-02 02:35:15 <xelister> ultimatelly it would become crackable
 568 2010-12-02 02:35:18 <AAA_awright> How?
 569 2010-12-02 02:35:23 <xelister> to generate key with same part of hash
 570 2010-12-02 02:35:23 <jgarzik> tcatm: bitcoin-address1 needs a key=value setup, in case someone wants to add "label=Jeff Garzik" or something.  I suppose one could have "bitcoin-address1: addr=1xxxxxx"
 571 2010-12-02 02:35:32 <jgarzik> but 'addr' seemed redundant
 572 2010-12-02 02:35:42 <xelister> if you want in the end to have ipv6 address as identification
 573 2010-12-02 02:35:43 <AAA_awright> xelister: You would never be able to see the contents of the message
 574 2010-12-02 02:35:59 <xelister> AAA_awright: hmm well Im not sure
 575 2010-12-02 02:36:06 <xelister> AAA_awright: but what would be the goal of all this?
 576 2010-12-02 02:36:31 <AAA_awright> xelister: You encrypt using the public key, send to the hash of that public key, and only the holder of the private key can decrypt it
 577 2010-12-02 02:36:38 <tcatm> jgarzik: What about merging bitcoin-address1 and btcpayment-request1 making name and amount optional?
 578 2010-12-02 02:37:01 <AAA_awright> You have to retreive the public key first, but since you know the hash that can be done securely
 579 2010-12-02 02:37:57 <xelister> AAA_awright: hmm well I guess, but then the attack could lead to DoS. generate 9 false hidden addresses with same hash as the victim, and the packets to victim will get lost 90% of the time
 580 2010-12-02 02:38:17 <xelister> anyway, you could ask #tor :)
 581 2010-12-02 02:38:21 <jgarzik> tcatm: it is possible.  but, btcpayment-request1 includes an implies action the phone should automatically take.  bitcoin-address1 likely implies a totally different action "store this business card in your rolodex file"
 582 2010-12-02 02:38:23 <xelister> but Im not sure what would be point of all this
 583 2010-12-02 02:38:43 <jgarzik> btcpayment-request1 is a command verb
 584 2010-12-02 02:38:57 <jgarzik> s/implies/implied/
 585 2010-12-02 02:39:19 <tcatm> Then it would be useful to include a name for bitcoin-address1.
 586 2010-12-02 02:39:27 <tcatm> Making them even more similiar.
 587 2010-12-02 02:39:39 <jgarzik> tcatm: I could change bitcoin_addr to pubkey, in btcpayment-request1
 588 2010-12-02 02:39:40 <AAA_awright> xelister: That's a problem right now
 589 2010-12-02 02:40:58 <xelister> AAA_awright: if this system you propose is just to replace ipv4, ipv6 and make them trully own-able by people, I think this is wrong tool for the job. Tor,i2p, will all have like x100 less speed and bandwidth then normal internet connection (broadband) and like x1000 less for server pipes (and these need own IPs the most)
 590 2010-12-02 02:41:23 <jgarzik> tcatm: reload
 591 2010-12-02 02:41:26 redMBA has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 592 2010-12-02 02:41:35 redMBA has joined
 593 2010-12-02 02:42:26 <xelister> AAA_awright: also tor/such networks are blocked in dictator ship ruled countries like China, parts of EU (uk,fr etc), and USA.  Slaves under government
 594 2010-12-02 02:43:03 <tcatm> Hm. I have this "if btcpayment-request1 || bitcoin-address1; then confirmPayment(); fi" in mind, that I somehow don't like.
 595 2010-12-02 02:45:37 <tcatm> Maybe have a field to mark an address as "one time use"? When it's not set the user can save the pubkey to an addressbook.
 596 2010-12-02 02:46:25 <AAA_awright> xelister: No internet 4 u then
 597 2010-12-02 02:46:27 <jgarzik> tcatm: btcpayment-request1 is requesting that the customer initiate payment.  bitcoin-address1 is requested addition to an address book.  two very different actions.
 598 2010-12-02 02:46:36 <jgarzik> tcatm: btcpayment-request1 is bitcoin-address1 + more work
 599 2010-12-02 02:47:27 <jgarzik> tcatm: by implication, btcpayment-request1 might be a one-time use address, and app should not store in address book by default
 600 2010-12-02 02:48:56 <Foggymyst> Hot dog!
 601 2010-12-02 02:49:08 <Foggymyst> I got my first 50 BTC after only 20 hours of processing
 602 2010-12-02 02:49:23 <Foggymyst> That feels really cool.
 603 2010-12-02 02:49:33 <jgarzik> tcatm: most merchant purchases are likely to be one-time use addresses (which is the recommended bitcoin client behavior too, I might add)
 604 2010-12-02 02:49:57 <tcatm> I see your point... not really sure what's supposed to happen when two people want to exchange money using bitcoin-address1 (or would they use btcpayment-request1 without amount set?)?
 605 2010-12-02 02:50:20 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 606 2010-12-02 02:52:36 <jgarzik> tcatm: what happens in current bitcoin client?  you have an address book.  if you want to send coins to an address in the address book, there is a simple UI for that.
 607 2010-12-02 02:53:36 <jgarzik> tcatm: why would two people want to exchange money, yet not know the amount?
 608 2010-12-02 02:53:44 <jgarzik> s/why/how/
 609 2010-12-02 02:54:42 <tcatm> The one sending the money would choose the amount.
 610 2010-12-02 02:55:59 <jgarzik> tcatm: sounds like btcpayment-request1 without amount, as you noted
 611 2010-12-02 02:56:19 <tcatm> Yes.
 612 2010-12-02 02:56:45 <tcatm> So bitcoin-address1 is really only for bookmarking?
 613 2010-12-02 02:58:30 <jgarzik> tcatm: address book or simple sharing of a bitcoin address, without any further implied action
 614 2010-12-02 02:59:38 <jgarzik> tcatm: btcpayment-request1 tells the app to initiate a payment to that address, right now
 615 2010-12-02 02:59:39 <tcatm> Hm... needs a bit more thinking. I fear users might not know how that those a different features and wonder why they can't bookmark an address.
 616 2010-12-02 03:01:04 <jgarzik> tcatm: with one-time addresses being a common case, you don't want to bookmark by default, nor annoy users by prompting them "bookmark?  yes / no"
 617 2010-12-02 03:03:41 <tcatm> Could we exclude bitcoin-address1 from the spec for now?
 618 2010-12-02 03:04:33 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 619 2010-12-02 03:04:59 davex__ has joined
 620 2010-12-02 03:05:19 <jgarzik> tcatm: if we exclude, then someone will add bookmarking to btcpayment-request1, creating the problem just described
 621 2010-12-02 03:06:52 <tcatm> Okay...
 622 2010-12-02 03:07:36 <xelister> Foggymyst: congrats, what card
 623 2010-12-02 03:08:28 redMBA has joined
 624 2010-12-02 03:11:25 <Foggymyst> xelister: I think it was just luck.  Its a Nvidia GTX460
 625 2010-12-02 03:11:39 * tcatm is away for a few hours.
 626 2010-12-02 03:11:40 <Foggymyst> xelister: 46Khps
 627 2010-12-02 03:19:18 <bitplane> is there a page which properly describes the bitcoin system in layman's terms?
 628 2010-12-02 03:20:55 <jgarzik> bitplane: I think xelister is working on something like that
 629 2010-12-02 03:21:26 <jgarzik> bitplane: http://www.bitcoinme.com/ is meant as a starting point, though it's not really a straight explanation
 630 2010-12-02 03:22:02 <andrew12> I love big bang theory
 631 2010-12-02 03:23:31 davex__ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 632 2010-12-02 03:24:00 * jgarzik thinks there should be a #bitcoin-users channel, to which non-dev traffic should be shunted :)
 633 2010-12-02 03:24:07 redMBA has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 634 2010-12-02 03:24:10 <jgarzik> mention that on BitcoinMe.com and other places
 635 2010-12-02 03:25:04 <sgornick> jgarzik: why not just #bitcoin ?
 636 2010-12-02 03:25:10 <jgarzik> that works too
 637 2010-12-02 03:25:11 redMBA has joined
 638 2010-12-02 03:25:45 <jgarzik> sgornick: looks like #bitcoin is already used by robots?
 639 2010-12-02 03:27:20 <nelisky> hey andre12, seems like the very improbable case of 48h on the pick3 has already passed :)
 640 2010-12-02 03:27:30 <nelisky> andrew12 ^^
 641 2010-12-02 03:27:43 <nelisky> no winners yet
 642 2010-12-02 03:27:48 <andrew12> yeah I noticed
 643 2010-12-02 03:27:48 <andrew12> :P
 644 2010-12-02 03:27:57 <sgornick> jgarzik: maybe #bitcoin-public  ?   Got the idea from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate#IRC_for_interactive_community_support
 645 2010-12-02 03:28:14 <Kiba> web-irc on bitcoin.org!
 646 2010-12-02 03:29:06 <sgornick> jgarzik: Though not much at all of that Fedora structure would apply at all to Bitcoin.  Like #bitcoin-women ?
 647 2010-12-02 03:29:17 <bitplane> thanks jgarzik
 648 2010-12-02 03:30:03 * jgarzik isn't particular.  Naming discussions can go on forever.  Just sayin' someone should pick one, and refer to that as the 'help' channel and this as the 'dev' channel
 649 2010-12-02 03:31:35 <CyanDynamo> bitcoin-support, bitcoin-help
 650 2010-12-02 03:34:13 <bitplane> the bots dont make any noise do they? did anyone register #bitcoin?
 651 2010-12-02 03:35:20 <sgornick> jgarzick: Naming convention kind of like the .org forums then?  So the five that I know of so far would be  #bitcoin-discussion #bitcoin-market  #bitcoin-dev #bitcoin-otc  #bitcoin-mining  (and #bitcoin too, but it is bot-only)   ?
 652 2010-12-02 03:36:49 <ne0futur>  /msg chanserv info #bitcoin
 653 2010-12-02 03:37:03 <ne0futur> (04:36) -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Channel #bitcoin is not registered.
 654 2010-12-02 03:40:24 <bitplane> ask in #freenode if an IRC op can +o someone there so they can register it
 655 2010-12-02 03:40:29 <bitplane> otherwise it will stay stale
 656 2010-12-02 03:41:46 <kermit> if the owner of bitcoin.org contacts them, they will
 657 2010-12-02 03:42:03 <bitplane> ;;bc,calc 67000
 658 2010-12-02 03:42:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 67000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 5 days, 23 hours, 50 minutes, and 44 seconds
 659 2010-12-02 03:42:25 <bitplane> I don't think you'll need the owner, it's not like you're stealing a channel
 660 2010-12-02 03:42:33 <bitplane> it's a dead channel anyway
 661 2010-12-02 03:44:07 davex__ has joined
 662 2010-12-02 03:45:49 <Kiba> finally finished my accursed homework in which I make easy mistakes
 663 2010-12-02 03:46:18 <bitplane> okay, I asked in #freenode and was told group registration is the way to go
 664 2010-12-02 03:46:41 <bitplane> which means no chance of getting the channel, I've waited over 18 months to get ownership of #irrlicht
 665 2010-12-02 03:47:09 <nanotube> bitplane: yea group reg is basically dead.
 666 2010-12-02 03:48:09 <ne0futur> i filled the group registration form 3 years ago
 667 2010-12-02 03:48:18 <nanotube> heh
 668 2010-12-02 03:48:20 <ne0futur> for the first time, then I tried again 2 years ago
 669 2010-12-02 03:48:28 <ne0futur> still not received even an email :p
 670 2010-12-02 03:48:43 <nanotube> well, fwiw, i've created #bitcoin-discussion. to match the bitcoin-discussion google group i created yesterday while bitcoin.org was dead.
 671 2010-12-02 03:49:01 <nanotube> feel free to join, and to shunt non-dev users over, in times of high dev-talk traffic.
 672 2010-12-02 03:52:22 <Kiba> so we are approaching the world of no banks.
 673 2010-12-02 03:52:31 <Kiba> neccesary to function
 674 2010-12-02 03:52:51 techhelper1 has joined
 675 2010-12-02 03:53:19 techhelper1 has left ("Leaving...")
 676 2010-12-02 04:09:10 bitplane has left ("Leaving")
 677 2010-12-02 04:18:53 kupo has quit (Changing host)
 678 2010-12-02 04:18:54 kupo has joined
 679 2010-12-02 04:27:44 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
 680 2010-12-02 04:27:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95021 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1746 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 15 hours, 21 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10160.95067981
 681 2010-12-02 04:30:05 <nanotube> nice estimate...
 682 2010-12-02 04:32:24 <Kiba> hmm
 683 2010-12-02 04:32:31 <Kiba> what with the slow startup of bitcoin
 684 2010-12-02 04:33:07 <nanotube> probably doing some db checking or something...
 685 2010-12-02 04:36:10 <Kiba> awesome
 686 2010-12-02 04:36:12 <Kiba> pool mining
 687 2010-12-02 04:37:24 <doublec> Kiba, did you get the pool miner built?
 688 2010-12-02 04:37:32 <Kiba> yes
 689 2010-12-02 04:37:34 <Kiba> I did
 690 2010-12-02 04:37:46 <Kiba> so how do I calculate the hashrate of the server?
 691 2010-12-02 04:37:49 <doublec> great!
 692 2010-12-02 04:37:57 <doublec> when you run the miner it prints it out periodically
 693 2010-12-02 04:38:49 <doublec> look for 'Got message 10 from server' and the following lines
 694 2010-12-02 04:39:01 <Kiba> yes
 695 2010-12-02 04:39:02 <Kiba> I see
 696 2010-12-02 04:39:06 remmy_ has joined
 697 2010-12-02 04:39:26 <Kiba> ;;bc,calculate 32155
 698 2010-12-02 04:39:26 <gribble> Error: "bc,calculate" is not a valid command.
 699 2010-12-02 04:39:37 <Kiba> hmm
 700 2010-12-02 04:41:12 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 32155
 701 2010-12-02 04:41:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 32155 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1 week, 5 days, 11 hours, 43 minutes, and 30 seconds
 702 2010-12-02 04:41:31 <Kiba> our hashrate is still pitiful. Lol.
 703 2010-12-02 04:42:43 <doublec> yeah, needs more contributors
 704 2010-12-02 04:44:16 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 705 2010-12-02 04:47:17 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 706 2010-12-02 04:48:39 sgornick has joined
 707 2010-12-02 04:52:08 Foggymyst has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 708 2010-12-02 04:52:21 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 100000
 709 2010-12-02 04:52:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 4 days, 0 hours, 22 minutes, and 35 seconds
 710 2010-12-02 04:57:36 <CyanDynamo> ;;bc,calc 2000
 711 2010-12-02 04:57:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 28 weeks, 4 days, 18 hours, 49 minutes, and 52 seconds
 712 2010-12-02 04:58:08 <nanotube> CyanDynamo: best join the pool with that hash rate, if you want to see some bitcoins any time soon. :)
 713 2010-12-02 04:58:20 <CyanDynamo> haha, looks like it
 714 2010-12-02 04:58:25 <CyanDynamo> how is that done?
 715 2010-12-02 04:58:40 <nanotube> let me hunt up a linky
 716 2010-12-02 04:58:49 <nanotube> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/bitcoin-pool/
 717 2010-12-02 05:00:31 <CyanDynamo> oh, btw, what does the bitcoin client do with all those cycles? i've been too lazy to check out the site (it was down yesterday when i first decided to check out bitcoin) so ignore me if it's mentioned somehwere
 718 2010-12-02 05:00:39 entel has joined
 719 2010-12-02 05:02:17 <nanotube> CyanDynamo: it basically does a lot of sha256 hashes
 720 2010-12-02 05:02:40 <CyanDynamo> is there a purpose to that though?
 721 2010-12-02 05:04:10 <nanotube> yes, to create the block chain, which is the mechanism of keeping track of and verifying transactions.
 722 2010-12-02 05:04:11 <doublec> No great 'social purpose', no
 723 2010-12-02 05:04:44 <nanotube> CyanDynamo: for details, see the ,,(website) and the ,,(wiki) ...
 724 2010-12-02 05:04:44 <gribble> Bitcoin website: http://bitcoin.org/
 725 2010-12-02 05:04:45 <gribble> Bitcoin website: http://bitcoin.org/wiki/
 726 2010-12-02 05:05:20 <nanotube> ;;wiki
 727 2010-12-02 05:05:20 <gribble> Bitcoin wiki: http://bitcoin.org/wiki/
 728 2010-12-02 05:05:23 <nanotube> that's better.
 729 2010-12-02 05:05:31 <CyanDynamo> handy bot you have there
 730 2010-12-02 05:05:41 <nanotube> yep, it has a few tricks up its sleeve :)
 731 2010-12-02 05:06:55 <doublec> ;bc,calc 36500
 732 2010-12-02 05:06:59 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 36500
 733 2010-12-02 05:06:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 36500 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1 week, 4 days, 0 hours, 2 minutes, and 43 seconds
 734 2010-12-02 05:08:32 <doublec> hopefully we can get the pool down to less than a week soon
 735 2010-12-02 05:08:52 <Kiba> hmm, it's pain to all these stuff, doublec
 736 2010-12-02 05:08:57 <nanotube> doublec: for your convenience, you can now reference the ,,pool inline :)
 737 2010-12-02 05:08:58 <gribble> No fancy GPU, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/bitcoin-pool/
 738 2010-12-02 05:09:02 <Kiba> do you have a git repository that I can clone from?
 739 2010-12-02 05:09:23 <doublec> Kiba, no but I'll set one up
 740 2010-12-02 05:09:24 <nanotube> doublec: hehe ++ for git repository :P
 741 2010-12-02 05:09:43 <doublec> I'll try to get it done later tonight
 742 2010-12-02 05:10:23 <nanotube> doublec: any other useful factoids you think i should add to the bot?
 743 2010-12-02 05:10:43 <doublec> do you have the bitcoin-discssion group in it?
 744 2010-12-02 05:11:17 <nanotube> not yet. you can see all existing factoids on the web ,,facts
 745 2010-12-02 05:11:17 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
 746 2010-12-02 05:11:26 <nanotube> i just started adding them
 747 2010-12-02 05:13:20 <doublec> nice
 748 2010-12-02 05:14:24 remmy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 749 2010-12-02 05:16:05 <nanotube> is there a wiki page collecting the various gpu clients (and set up instructions)?
 750 2010-12-02 05:16:14 <CyanDynamo> hmm
 751 2010-12-02 05:16:27 <CyanDynamo> if/when i mod my old xbox, i think i'll put this on it
 752 2010-12-02 05:17:59 <nanotube> mm, i wonder what hashrate you can get out of an xbox...
 753 2010-12-02 05:18:06 <nanotube> or a ps3, for that matter.
 754 2010-12-02 05:19:11 <CyanDynamo> well, we'll have to wait
 755 2010-12-02 05:19:17 <CyanDynamo> for that one
 756 2010-12-02 05:19:35 <CyanDynamo> since sony decided to be a dick and remove otheros
 757 2010-12-02 05:21:48 <nanotube> CyanDynamo: there are still ps3s out there with older firmware, which have otheros on.
 758 2010-12-02 05:21:56 <nanotube> you can even buy them on ebay at a premium :)
 759 2010-12-02 05:21:59 <CyanDynamo> nanotube: that's true.
 760 2010-12-02 05:22:17 <CyanDynamo> i was actually thinking about getting a ps3 until sony removed it
 761 2010-12-02 05:22:40 <nanotube> heh that'll show them.
 762 2010-12-02 05:22:49 <nanotube> bastards.
 763 2010-12-02 05:23:01 <CyanDynamo> and since i don't have the older consoles, i wanted to be able to play legacy titles
 764 2010-12-02 05:23:09 <CyanDynamo> but they've dropped support for that
 765 2010-12-02 05:23:09 <nanotube> wasn't there some class action suit planned for this? since they cripple the hardware ex-post, after people bought it?
 766 2010-12-02 05:23:27 <CyanDynamo> yeah
 767 2010-12-02 05:23:34 <CyanDynamo> i haven't read any news on it
 768 2010-12-02 05:23:58 <nanotube> me neither. heh.
 769 2010-12-02 05:24:08 <CyanDynamo> i suppose i shall check
 770 2010-12-02 05:24:56 <CyanDynamo> but yeah, the only other buying point for me was bluray. and a couple exclusive titles. i'm not going to drop $400 on it for just that.
 771 2010-12-02 05:27:01 <lfm> the old consoles still support PS2, the support that was dropped was for Linux
 772 2010-12-02 05:28:31 <lfm> if you can find a older used ps3 it will still run ps2 games
 773 2010-12-02 05:29:00 <nanotube> those probably go for $500 though. the old ones with ps2 and otheros support.
 774 2010-12-02 05:29:08 <lfm> and theyre down from 400 to 300 now I think
 775 2010-12-02 05:29:22 <nanotube> that's the new ones. without otheros or ps2
 776 2010-12-02 05:29:39 <nanotube> but i dunno, check ebay to see :)
 777 2010-12-02 05:29:41 <lfm> the used ones I think are cheaper than new still
 778 2010-12-02 05:29:55 <CyanDynamo> well, psjailbreak can now downgrade to any firmware version
 779 2010-12-02 05:31:13 remmy_ has joined
 780 2010-12-02 05:31:24 <nanotube> lfm: heh, there's one on ebay with otheros, for 499. (and it doesn't even have ps2 compat).
 781 2010-12-02 05:31:40 <lfm> can you put old otheros firmware on new ps3?
 782 2010-12-02 05:31:41 <nanotube> so my guess is... if you want a ps3 with ps2 compat + otheros, you'd have to pay a pretty peny.
 783 2010-12-02 05:31:51 <nanotube> not sure
 784 2010-12-02 05:31:55 <nanotube> i don't even have a ps3 :D
 785 2010-12-02 05:32:10 <nanotube> if it's possible it must take a lot of screwing around.
 786 2010-12-02 05:32:41 <lfm> yup any jailbreak generally is a lot of screwing around
 787 2010-12-02 05:33:49 <CyanDynamo> regarding the pool, do i have to stay connected to get coins when the block is finished or does it just look for my bitcoin address when it's all done?
 788 2010-12-02 05:34:04 <doublec> CyanDynamo, you have to stay connected
 789 2010-12-02 05:34:39 <CyanDynamo> really?
 790 2010-12-02 05:34:41 <CyanDynamo> that sucks
 791 2010-12-02 05:34:53 <CyanDynamo> so this is made for 24/7 stuff
 792 2010-12-02 05:34:59 <doublec> maybe I'm misunderstanding you
 793 2010-12-02 05:35:25 <CyanDynamo> i'm running this on my laptop. usually i reboot every few days.
 794 2010-12-02 05:36:01 <doublec> when it generates a block it sends coins out to all those who contributed to that block
 795 2010-12-02 05:36:10 <lfm> i'd think you would not need to be online at the exect time when the shares go out
 796 2010-12-02 05:36:20 <doublec> so if you were connected and contribted to that block you'd get the coins
 797 2010-12-02 05:36:48 <doublec> you don't need to have a bitcoin client connected to actually receive the coins
 798 2010-12-02 05:36:55 <doublec> you'll get them next time you run bitcoin
 799 2010-12-02 05:37:21 <lfm> you do need to stay connected to be activly contributing to the pool and gaining credit
 800 2010-12-02 05:38:10 <CyanDynamo> ;;bc,calc 34000
 801 2010-12-02 05:38:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 34000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1 week, 4 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes, and 38 seconds
 802 2010-12-02 05:39:25 <lfm> ;;bc;calc 24500
 803 2010-12-02 05:39:26 <gribble> Error: "bc;calc" is not a valid command.
 804 2010-12-02 05:39:40 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 24500
 805 2010-12-02 05:39:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 24500 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 2 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 22 minutes, and 26 seconds
 806 2010-12-02 05:39:42 <donpdonp> ;;bc,calc 2000
 807 2010-12-02 05:39:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 28 weeks, 4 days, 18 hours, 49 minutes, and 52 seconds
 808 2010-12-02 05:41:23 <lfm> donpdonp is almost like puddinpop scrambled
 809 2010-12-02 05:42:29 <nanotube> haha almost. missing a 'u' and an 'i' :)
 810 2010-12-02 05:42:46 <lfm> and a p
 811 2010-12-02 05:42:47 <nanotube> and an extra o
 812 2010-12-02 05:42:55 <nanotube> heh
 813 2010-12-02 05:43:00 <lfm> 3 vs 2
 814 2010-12-02 05:43:48 <lfm> so its not really very close
 815 2010-12-02 05:43:57 <nanotube> haha yea. but 'kinda close' :)
 816 2010-12-02 05:44:34 <nanotube> ;;levenshtein donpdonp puddinpop
 817 2010-12-02 05:44:34 <gribble> 6
 818 2010-12-02 05:44:39 <nanotube> ;;levenshtein nanotube puddinpop
 819 2010-12-02 05:44:39 <gribble> 9
 820 2010-12-02 05:44:45 <nanotube> lfm: closer than nanotube, at any rate :D
 821 2010-12-02 05:44:59 <lfm> what is that!?
 822 2010-12-02 05:45:25 <donpdonp> har. thanks that reminds me i have icecream in the freezer.
 823 2010-12-02 05:45:43 <nanotube> ;;help levenshtein
 824 2010-12-02 05:45:43 <gribble> (levenshtein <string1> <string2>) -- Returns the levenshtein distance (also known as the "edit distance" between <string1> and <string2>)
 825 2010-12-02 05:45:56 <lfm> ok i see levenshtein is in wikipeadia
 826 2010-12-02 05:45:57 <nanotube> see also ,,(wp levenshtein distance)
 827 2010-12-02 05:45:57 <gribble> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenshtein_distance | In information theory and computer science, the Levenshtein distance is a metric for measuring the amount of difference between two sequences (i.e. an edit ...
 828 2010-12-02 05:46:11 <nanotube> yep :)
 829 2010-12-02 05:47:18 <nanotube> donpdonp: how can that possibly remind you about icecream? do they sell levenshtein flavor where you're at? hehe
 830 2010-12-02 05:48:10 <nanotube> mm, a bit of buying on mtgox...
 831 2010-12-02 05:48:36 <lfm> pudding-pop is kinda like ice cream
 832 2010-12-02 05:48:43 <nanotube> ah
 833 2010-12-02 05:48:45 <nanotube> could be. :)
 834 2010-12-02 05:48:59 <lfm> about as close as the spelling was
 835 2010-12-02 05:49:06 <nanotube> haha
 836 2010-12-02 05:49:25 <lfm> in that you find em both in a fredge
 837 2010-12-02 05:49:30 <lfm> fridge
 838 2010-12-02 05:49:43 <donpdonp> is that a dead body joke?
 839 2010-12-02 05:50:02 <AAA_awright> For all the interest I got in IRC and the people telling me to post on the forums http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2035.0 isn't getting much activity *poke**poke*
 840 2010-12-02 05:50:49 <sgornick> AAA_awright: have a tl;dr version?
 841 2010-12-02 05:51:02 <AAA_awright> It's rather advanced
 842 2010-12-02 05:51:14 <AAA_awright> But I guess the first three paragraphs
 843 2010-12-02 05:51:14 <sgornick> i was (half) kidding.
 844 2010-12-02 05:51:28 <AAA_awright> Or even just the third paragraph
 845 2010-12-02 05:51:40 <nanotube> sgornick: that /is/ a tldr version. you need an 'sr' version (short, read). :)
 846 2010-12-02 05:55:48 <lfm> AAA_awright, I dont think I have time to properly evaluate it
 847 2010-12-02 05:57:46 <lfm> AAA_awright, as a quick read suggests to me it might work but I cant tell since its probably as hard to understand and look for flaws as bitcoin is and I know how long it took me to get a handle on bitcoin (weeks or months)
 848 2010-12-02 05:58:29 <AAA_awright> lfm: This would be a pretty major project, proving that it would still be mathematically hard and such
 849 2010-12-02 05:58:37 <AAA_awright> Or that it even exists
 850 2010-12-02 05:59:11 <AAA_awright> It's quite a number of conditions that make up the definition
 851 2010-12-02 05:59:43 Lyspooner has joined
 852 2010-12-02 05:59:43 <lfm> and considering it might not have much advantage over bitcoin it seems not worth the effort. (I dont feel the bitcoin block chain is a problem really)
 853 2010-12-02 05:59:52 <Lyspooner> ;;mtgox
 854 2010-12-02 05:59:53 <gribble> Error: "mtgox" is not a valid command.
 855 2010-12-02 05:59:59 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,stats
 856 2010-12-02 06:00:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95033 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1734 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 13 hours, 43 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10162.24894885
 857 2010-12-02 06:00:03 <AAA_awright> I would say it's a blocker to becoming a mass payment system
 858 2010-12-02 06:00:30 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,calc 32300
 859 2010-12-02 06:00:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 32300 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1 week, 5 days, 10 hours, 22 minutes, and 46 seconds
 860 2010-12-02 06:01:41 acous has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 861 2010-12-02 06:02:49 <AAA_awright> I simply don't see how it scales, you must be able to ignore other transactions that do not involve you if you want to scale
 862 2010-12-02 06:03:51 <lfm> AAA_awright, well if you consider something like mybitcoin.com could handle a LOT of small transactions without adding to the block chain at all! I can see how it can scale
 863 2010-12-02 06:04:58 <AAA_awright> All I will say for certain is tha Bitcoin is in for some pretty major evolution that no one of us could have thought of individually
 864 2010-12-02 06:05:21 <lfm> perhaps, thats always possible
 865 2010-12-02 06:06:00 Kiba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 866 2010-12-02 06:07:30 <lfm> ooo, mtgox "megachart"!
 867 2010-12-02 06:08:30 Foggymyst has joined
 868 2010-12-02 06:12:56 Lyspooner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 869 2010-12-02 06:14:31 <lfm> "one day" seems to show whole year
 870 2010-12-02 06:35:33 <CyanDynamo> have you guys heard about dot-p2p?
 871 2010-12-02 06:37:13 <lfm> I have not
 872 2010-12-02 06:41:05 <CyanDynamo> http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-based-dns-to-counter-us-domain-seizures-101130/
 873 2010-12-02 06:50:42 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 874 2010-12-02 06:50:43 <AAA_awright> We've been talking about it all day and it's been on Slashdot
 875 2010-12-02 07:01:33 <entel> cool idea
 876 2010-12-02 07:01:40 <entel> doesnt seem like it will work
 877 2010-12-02 07:02:33 remmy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 878 2010-12-02 07:08:41 <CyanDynamo> entel: why not?
 879 2010-12-02 07:10:12 <entel> from what I read on the wiki it just didn't seem well planned out
 880 2010-12-02 07:10:48 <entel> but i still think it's a good idea
 881 2010-12-02 07:13:24 <lfm> so to use links to a .p2p address you have to run special dns software
 882 2010-12-02 07:13:59 <lfm> or maybe link to a special dns server
 883 2010-12-02 07:15:27 <jgarzik> p2p dns is a paradox.  you need a central authority to avoid people who would run automated domain grabs of the entire namespace, brand thieves (google.p2p -> malware, ebay.p2p -> malware, etc.), and other problems.  DNS is fundamentally a central registry, enumerating private property and limited resources.
 884 2010-12-02 07:16:00 <jgarzik> you can decentralize the data service, but you still need someone to sign cryptographic keys
 885 2010-12-02 07:16:34 anarchyx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 886 2010-12-02 07:16:53 anarchyx has joined
 887 2010-12-02 07:17:45 <AAA_awright> jgarzik: That's what engineering is for
 888 2010-12-02 07:17:56 <AAA_awright> You don't blindly take their word for it
 889 2010-12-02 07:17:58 <lfm> jgarzik, so you think if they get their .p2p tld running it will quickly get poluted to those thing
 890 2010-12-02 07:18:26 <jgarzik> AAA_awright: _whose_ word?
 891 2010-12-02 07:18:31 <jgarzik> (rhetorical question...)
 892 2010-12-02 07:19:02 <jgarzik> lfm: well, the dot-p2p folks already recognize these problems.  still an open question of what is a good implementation to solve all this.
 893 2010-12-02 07:19:19 <AAA_awright> Right it's hard, but you have to trust someone
 894 2010-12-02 07:19:25 <lfm> nope
 895 2010-12-02 07:19:32 <lfm> dont trust anyone
 896 2010-12-02 07:19:45 <AAA_awright> Well then you can never resolve a hostname
 897 2010-12-02 07:19:52 <jgarzik> exactly :)  thus the paradox.
 898 2010-12-02 07:19:59 <entel> lol
 899 2010-12-02 07:20:03 <AAA_awright> lfm: That's a way to do it too I guess
 900 2010-12-02 07:20:06 <AAA_awright> Only use IP addresses
 901 2010-12-02 07:20:11 <lfm> assume resolved hostnames are bad. just use bad names
 902 2010-12-02 07:20:11 <entel> jgarzik raises some good points
 903 2010-12-02 07:20:14 <AAA_awright> But IP addresses change!
 904 2010-12-02 07:20:40 <AAA_awright> In which case you go for this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1884.0
 905 2010-12-02 07:20:51 <AAA_awright> end-to-end encrypted, fully distributed Internet protocol
 906 2010-12-02 07:20:58 <jgarzik> you cannot own a piece of namespace, without some higher authority agreeing that you own it.  ie. who is to say jgarzik, and not Google, Inc. owns the keypair for google.p2p?  And what if that changes tomorrow?
 907 2010-12-02 07:21:15 <AAA_awright> How about this
 908 2010-12-02 07:21:23 <AAA_awright> You need to be signaled that it changed
 909 2010-12-02 07:21:32 <lfm> if I want to override goole.com in my /etc/hosts file, I can
 910 2010-12-02 07:21:35 <AAA_awright> So, when a domain name expires, you must wait one year before it becomes usable again
 911 2010-12-02 07:21:49 <Foggymyst> Does anyone run a pooled miner in here?
 912 2010-12-02 07:21:57 <AAA_awright> How about this
 913 2010-12-02 07:22:11 <AAA_awright> You have a DNS system like right now right
 914 2010-12-02 07:22:13 <AAA_awright> kinda
 915 2010-12-02 07:22:20 <AAA_awright> hmm
 916 2010-12-02 07:23:07 <AAA_awright> Yeah
 917 2010-12-02 07:23:38 <lfm> yup, I have a dns system like now, right
 918 2010-12-02 07:23:40 <AAA_awright> So however allocation works, once addresses are allocated
 919 2010-12-02 07:23:55 <AAA_awright> You maintain them with the private key they are owned with, you prove ownership with your private key
 920 2010-12-02 07:24:04 <AAA_awright> Every six months or so a new table is created
 921 2010-12-02 07:24:16 <AAA_awright> And you can allocate from that future table only if you hold the private key
 922 2010-12-02 07:24:21 <AAA_awright> And one ahead of it
 923 2010-12-02 07:24:26 <AAA_awright> So one year
 924 2010-12-02 07:24:35 <AAA_awright> If you lose the private key it becomes available in a year
 925 2010-12-02 07:24:53 <AAA_awright> Or you can let someone else own it, by signing their bid on ownership
 926 2010-12-02 07:25:19 <lfm> so the only 10 letter name left after six months is lsdkjhgfu.com if you want something shorter you have to wait a year
 927 2010-12-02 07:25:32 <AAA_awright> Now why not have multiple tables?
 928 2010-12-02 07:25:41 <AAA_awright> Then you have to ask multiple providers and see if they agree
 929 2010-12-02 07:25:52 <jgarzik> the only thing I can come up with is a bitcoin-like system that produces a defined set of namespace every block (a.p2p - f.p2p in block #0, aa.p2p - az.p2p in block #9, etc.).  the miner who solves the block gets that piece of namespace.
 930 2010-12-02 07:25:55 <AAA_awright> One might auction their names off
 931 2010-12-02 07:26:08 <AAA_awright> But they would be trusted, in essence, with allocating names
 932 2010-12-02 07:26:10 <jgarzik> then the free market takes over
 933 2010-12-02 07:26:13 btcex has joined
 934 2010-12-02 07:26:14 <AAA_awright> Not providing them, just allocating
 935 2010-12-02 07:26:14 <AAA_awright> Right
 936 2010-12-02 07:26:15 <jgarzik> miners sell domains they mine, etc.
 937 2010-12-02 07:26:32 <AAA_awright> Hopefully it would be engineered so you can't mine them and destroy them forever
 938 2010-12-02 07:26:43 <AAA_awright> There would be some cost depending on how popular the name is
 939 2010-12-02 07:26:48 <lfm> wave magic wand, solves all problems
 940 2010-12-02 07:26:50 <AAA_awright> What was the most expensive domain name
 941 2010-12-02 07:26:57 <AAA_awright> Selling would work the same
 942 2010-12-02 07:26:59 <AAA_awright> Right
 943 2010-12-02 07:27:23 <AAA_awright> jobs.com or something stupid
 944 2010-12-02 07:27:33 <lfm> if all else fails, make the obvious move (from a chess player design I once saw)
 945 2010-12-02 07:28:57 <AAA_awright> There would definitely need to be some network of companies or something that would allocate the domains
 946 2010-12-02 07:29:20 <AAA_awright> And they can sell their trust
 947 2010-12-02 07:29:33 <lfm> I dont trust filthy capitalist monopolies
 948 2010-12-02 07:29:51 <AAA_awright> Well how else do you do it?
 949 2010-12-02 07:30:34 <lfm> let current broken system flail on
 950 2010-12-02 07:31:11 <lfm> rather than replacing it with an different broken system at great effort and expense
 951 2010-12-02 07:36:34 <lfm> seems like some more miners coming online again since this diff change that maybe backed off for the last diff change
 952 2010-12-02 07:37:22 <lfm> it looks like difficulty is certainly headed for over 10k
 953 2010-12-02 07:45:13 sgtstein1 has joined
 954 2010-12-02 08:01:47 <CyanDynamo> ;;bc,calc 61744
 955 2010-12-02 08:01:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 61744 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 6 days, 12 hours, 5 minutes, and 26 seconds
 956 2010-12-02 08:04:46 TheAncientGoat has joined
 957 2010-12-02 08:35:06 <CyanDynamo> ;;bc,stats
 958 2010-12-02 08:35:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95055 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1712 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 8 hours, 38 minutes, and 37 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10260.59830570
 959 2010-12-02 08:48:23 kisom_dev has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 960 2010-12-02 08:49:14 kisom_dev has joined
 961 2010-12-02 08:51:56 <xelister> damn. is it possible Diablo's miner is loosing coins?
 962 2010-12-02 08:52:09 <xelister> I created 2 blocks in last 12 hours
 963 2010-12-02 08:52:17 <xelister> non of them are visible in the bitcoin client
 964 2010-12-02 08:53:25 <xelister> how to see coins that I almost generated with a block, but that turned out to be not accepted in the 20 hours period and therefore killed?
 965 2010-12-02 08:53:28 <xelister> is this noted anywhere
 966 2010-12-02 09:19:06 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 967 2010-12-02 09:23:31 Xunie has joined
 968 2010-12-02 09:23:31 Xunie has quit (Changing host)
 969 2010-12-02 09:23:31 Xunie has joined
 970 2010-12-02 09:28:02 kisom_dev has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 971 2010-12-02 09:29:01 kisom_dev has joined
 972 2010-12-02 09:30:05 <btcex> <xelister> I created 2 blocks in last 12 hours
 973 2010-12-02 09:30:20 <btcex> blocks accepted only after 150 confirmations
 974 2010-12-02 09:31:56 <xelister> btcex: I know, but this blocks are gone
 975 2010-12-02 09:32:07 <xelister> there are not shown, as usually, as new block awaiting for confirmation
 976 2010-12-02 09:32:10 <xelister> they are just totally gone
 977 2010-12-02 09:32:31 <xelister> also, how debug.log should show founding of new block?  is debug.log rotated?  I cant see any trace of that
 978 2010-12-02 09:32:58 * btcex never generate blocks
 979 2010-12-02 09:38:39 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
 980 2010-12-02 09:38:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95065 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1702 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes, and 29 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10343.50309589
 981 2010-12-02 09:43:03 DreadKnight has joined
 982 2010-12-02 09:43:50 <btcex> anyone try GPU mining pool?
 983 2010-12-02 09:47:33 <DreadKnight> are there are debs for linux/ubuntu?
 984 2010-12-02 09:47:39 kisom_de1 has joined
 985 2010-12-02 09:48:22 kisom_dev has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 986 2010-12-02 09:49:50 <TheAncientGoat> DreadKnight: Just use the linux download, it should work
 987 2010-12-02 09:49:54 <TheAncientGoat> No compilation needed
 988 2010-12-02 09:51:24 <DreadKnight> TheAncientGoat, ok xD
 989 2010-12-02 09:52:21 <xelister> btcex: what card you have?
 990 2010-12-02 09:52:58 <btcex> I do not have card, x11 + vesa on old laptop
 991 2010-12-02 09:54:42 <btcex> oops, not vesa, SiS
 992 2010-12-02 09:54:49 <btcex> without 3d acceleration
 993 2010-12-02 09:57:14 <xelister> ...
 994 2010-12-02 10:00:21 <doublec> Foggymyst, yes I run a pooled miner
 995 2010-12-02 10:00:37 <doublec> 90 clients connected to the pooled server so far
 996 2010-12-02 10:00:57 <doublec> 70000 khash/s
 997 2010-12-02 10:01:03 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 70000
 998 2010-12-02 10:01:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 70000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 5 days, 17 hours, 40 minutes, and 51 seconds
 999 2010-12-02 10:01:06 <xelister> doublec: money is shared proportionally to speed?
1000 2010-12-02 10:01:16 <doublec> xelister, yes
1001 2010-12-02 10:01:51 <doublec> ,,pool for more info
1002 2010-12-02 10:01:52 <gribble> No fancy GPU, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/bitcoin-pool/
1003 2010-12-02 10:02:20 <DreadKnight> no way to delete a bitcoin address?
1004 2010-12-02 10:09:33 <CyanDynamo> DreadKnight: why would you want to?
1005 2010-12-02 10:10:16 <DreadKnight> CyanDynamo, it starts up with 13, hehe
1006 2010-12-02 10:10:41 <CyanDynamo> >.>
1007 2010-12-02 10:10:42 <CyanDynamo> lol
1008 2010-12-02 10:11:01 <CyanDynamo> just use a different address
1009 2010-12-02 10:11:25 <DreadKnight> did that.... but if I made addresses... they keep stacking up; it's a bit weird :)
1010 2010-12-02 10:17:02 sgtstein1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1013 2010-12-02 10:31:45 sgtstein has joined
1014 2010-12-02 10:43:00 altamic has joined
1015 2010-12-02 10:44:48 sktrdie has joined
1016 2010-12-02 10:44:50 <sktrdie> Ok, what the hell is Bitcoin?
1017 2010-12-02 10:52:46 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: http://www.bitcoinme.com/
1018 2010-12-02 10:52:57 <sktrdie> but the site makes it seem as though you can "generate" bitcoins out of nothing... that's weird.
1019 2010-12-02 10:53:00 <sktrdie> I still don't understand how can there be no central resources... who converts bitcoins to money?
1020 2010-12-02 10:53:14 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1022 2010-12-02 10:55:26 <btcex> sktrdie: FFFUUU!111
1023 2010-12-02 10:55:57 <btcex> every hour I receive email about this. every. hour.
1024 2010-12-02 10:57:26 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: No one converts bitcoins to money
1025 2010-12-02 10:57:31 <TheAncientGoat> You trade them for money
1026 2010-12-02 10:57:36 <btcex> sktrdie: mtgox.com and btcex.com converts bitcoin to money
1027 2010-12-02 10:57:38 <TheAncientGoat> Anyone can trade
1028 2010-12-02 10:57:50 <TheAncientGoat> btcex: That's not accurate, imo
1029 2010-12-02 10:58:07 <btcex> TheAncientGoat:  No one converts  USD to JPY, you trade them for JPY
1030 2010-12-02 10:58:45 <CyanDynamo> trade is a transaction where values are assessed
1031 2010-12-02 10:59:04 <CyanDynamo> nobody establishes a value for any currency
1032 2010-12-02 10:59:24 <CyanDynamo> it's determined by it's value in the market
1033 2010-12-02 11:00:14 <CyanDynamo> not to mention, dollar bills are generated outof nothing, too.
1034 2010-12-02 11:00:27 <DreadKnight> btcex, then probably you should put that info on the homepage :D
1035 2010-12-02 11:00:38 <CyanDynamo> i'm pretty sure it is
1036 2010-12-02 11:00:44 <CyanDynamo> bitcoin is just difficult to understand
1037 2010-12-02 11:01:05 <TheAncientGoat> Aren't all commodities' values determined in the market?
1038 2010-12-02 11:01:08 <btcex> DreadKnight: I was hoping that people who come to the exchange are able to use it :)
1039 2010-12-02 11:01:13 <DreadKnight> bitcoin is very nerdish, it's normal for people to ask questions
1040 2010-12-02 11:01:40 <DreadKnight> oh well
1041 2010-12-02 11:01:42 <CyanDynamo> currency is a commodity, technically. it's a middle-man, a store of value.
1042 2010-12-02 11:02:26 <DreadKnight> omg, I have 0.05, IM RICH!
1043 2010-12-02 11:03:17 <CyanDynamo> ME TOO
1044 2010-12-02 11:03:38 <CyanDynamo> isn't that a penny's worth?
1045 2010-12-02 11:03:45 <DreadKnight> I think so
1046 2010-12-02 11:04:49 <sktrdie> it's hard for me to understand how this digital data has become valuable as money
1047 2010-12-02 11:04:57 <btcex> Does anyone can help write the explanation texts of the exchange in English?
1048 2010-12-02 11:05:47 <btcex> sktrdie: Why cash are valuable?
1049 2010-12-02 11:07:00 <sktrdie> btcex: you mean actual money? dunno it's the law... my country decides... it sucks but that's what it is.
1050 2010-12-02 11:07:22 <btcex> yes.What is country?
1051 2010-12-02 11:08:12 <sktrdie> Italy
1052 2010-12-02 11:08:16 <btcex> :)
1053 2010-12-02 11:08:28 <btcex> I mean what is goverment?
1054 2010-12-02 11:08:37 <btcex> (or State?)
1055 2010-12-02 11:08:49 <sktrdie> EURO
1056 2010-12-02 11:09:24 <btcex> wait, I need consultation with google translate :)
1057 2010-12-02 11:10:03 <sktrdie> What is your question?
1058 2010-12-02 11:10:24 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: Why is it valuable? Because people believe it is valuable
1059 2010-12-02 11:10:25 <btcex> What is Sovereign state?
1060 2010-12-02 11:10:35 <btcex> sktrdie: questen for you
1061 2010-12-02 11:10:48 <btcex> sktrdie: question for you
1062 2010-12-02 11:11:11 <sktrdie> TheAncientGoat: sure, that's the low-level idea. But in reality it's valuable because it's the law. My gov decides it is valuable...
1063 2010-12-02 11:11:30 <btcex> sktrdie: yes, but what is goverment?
1064 2010-12-02 11:11:30 <sktrdie> Not everything I buy is digital
1065 2010-12-02 11:11:59 <sktrdie> If my super-market (the most important thing i need money for) takes my government money - i use that.
1066 2010-12-02 11:12:00 <btcex> government = sum (citizens), yes?
1067 2010-12-02 11:12:38 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: It's the market that decides the value though.
1068 2010-12-02 11:12:56 <btcex> sktrdie: That is, the citizens have delegated to their representatives (the government) are some functions, such as the monetary system.
1069 2010-12-02 11:12:56 <sktrdie> sure exactly
1070 2010-12-02 11:13:01 <TheAncientGoat> The government just controls it's issuing
1071 2010-12-02 11:13:08 <TheAncientGoat> its, bleh
1072 2010-12-02 11:13:17 <sktrdie> i agree.
1073 2010-12-02 11:13:45 <altamic> sktrdie: bitcoin minimizes the impact of market manipulation by parasitical component of market economy
1074 2010-12-02 11:13:58 <btcex> sktrdie: bitcoin creates monetary system directly\
1075 2010-12-02 11:14:08 <sktrdie> i understand.
1076 2010-12-02 11:14:16 <sktrdie> how long has it been working for?
1077 2010-12-02 11:14:24 <sktrdie> and at what point will my super-market start using it? :D
1078 2010-12-02 11:14:28 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: Currencies can rise or fall due to governmental decisions
1079 2010-12-02 11:14:33 <btcex> sktrdie: then what is the difference between cash and bitcoin?
1080 2010-12-02 11:14:42 <altamic> strdie: I am from sicily
1081 2010-12-02 11:14:52 <btcex> no difference
1082 2010-12-02 11:14:57 <TheAncientGoat> Look at collapsed currencies like the zim dollar or ones from history
1083 2010-12-02 11:15:01 <sktrdie> btcex: that cash is valuable in my market... bitcoin it's just a number that a very small part of the market has adapted.
1084 2010-12-02 11:15:27 <btcex> sktrdie: how valuable is the Japanese yen in your market?
1085 2010-12-02 11:15:42 <btcex> sktrdie: how valuable the Japanese yen in your market?
1086 2010-12-02 11:15:53 <sktrdie> it is, conversion exists.
1087 2010-12-02 11:16:40 <btcex> sktrdie: bitcoin also have exchanges
1088 2010-12-02 11:16:43 <btcex> for EUR
1089 2010-12-02 11:16:53 <sktrdie> but bitcoin doesn't have a market
1090 2010-12-02 11:16:58 <sktrdie> at least not yet
1091 2010-12-02 11:17:10 <sktrdie> the Japanese currency has a market... so does the Euro
1092 2010-12-02 11:17:15 <altamic> we are here to build it
1093 2010-12-02 11:17:16 <btcex> sktrdie: mtgox.com
1094 2010-12-02 11:17:17 <btcex> ?
1095 2010-12-02 11:17:34 <btcex> market is small. while small
1096 2010-12-02 11:17:44 <sktrdie> Yes, I totally understand the building process... i'm just stating the current facts - answers to btcex questions.
1097 2010-12-02 11:18:43 <sktrdie> so where is my currency stored? on paypal it's stored on their servers... what's the difference here?
1098 2010-12-02 11:18:54 <btcex> sktrdie: bitcoin value for you is the same as the Thai baht :) they have value for you, but you prefer EUR
1099 2010-12-02 11:19:14 <[Noodles]> its in your wallet, keep it safe
1100 2010-12-02 11:19:34 <sktrdie> What's a *wallet* for bitcoin?
1101 2010-12-02 11:19:45 <btcex> sktrdie: wallet.dat file
1102 2010-12-02 11:19:46 <sktrdie> your hard-drive? or a key?
1103 2010-12-02 11:19:52 <sktrdie> just 1 file?
1104 2010-12-02 11:19:52 <[Noodles]> it's a file in your data-directory
1105 2010-12-02 11:19:56 <[Noodles]> yes
1106 2010-12-02 11:20:06 <btcex> sktrdie: secret keys storage
1107 2010-12-02 11:20:13 <sktrdie> and the validation happens where? who stores the amount of money I have?
1108 2010-12-02 11:20:33 <sktrdie> it can't be just one file and that's it... people would reverse-engineer it and make fake money.
1109 2010-12-02 11:20:41 <sktrdie> or just increase their wallet as much as they want.
1110 2010-12-02 11:20:41 <[Noodles]> the blocks store transactions and validate them
1111 2010-12-02 11:20:56 <sktrdie> so data is validates between all the peers in the network?
1112 2010-12-02 11:20:59 <sktrdie> *validated.
1113 2010-12-02 11:21:02 <[Noodles]> yes
1114 2010-12-02 11:21:05 <btcex> sktrdie: by presence of secret keys you confirm that the money is yours
1115 2010-12-02 11:21:23 <sktrdie> hrm interesting.
1116 2010-12-02 11:21:38 <btcex> sktrdie: you ask questions from the faq
1117 2010-12-02 11:22:15 <sktrdie> you should provide a higher - level faq... starting out explanation of the system with Blocks and Peers it's quite user-unfriendly.
1118 2010-12-02 11:23:07 <btcex> sktrdie: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php ?
1119 2010-12-02 11:24:38 <sktrdie> The question is whether people will trust software and peers to store their money.
1120 2010-12-02 11:25:03 <sktrdie> In real life you still have assurance of your bank (which of course could also fail, but your money is assured and people feel safe)
1121 2010-12-02 11:25:29 <[Noodles]> in reallife, you have to trust your bank, in bitcoin you dont have to trust anyone
1122 2010-12-02 11:25:36 <sktrdie> With this system I'm doubtful, there may be tons of concept flaws with my money floating around and not having anyone to blame when my money is gone :|
1123 2010-12-02 11:26:02 <[Noodles]> not to mention you pay your bank
1124 2010-12-02 11:26:15 <btcex> sktrdie: your bank can forge signatures and documents )
1125 2010-12-02 11:26:29 <sktrdie> my money is still assured.
1126 2010-12-02 11:26:36 <altamic> sktrdie: ahaha
1127 2010-12-02 11:26:52 <altamic> this is want they like you to believe
1128 2010-12-02 11:27:06 <btcex> sktrdie: I prefer to call the bitcoin a 'digital cash'
1129 2010-12-02 11:27:26 <btcex> Then these issues are eliminated.
1130 2010-12-02 11:28:03 <sktrdie> altamic: how do you feel safe? do you completely understand the low-bit specifications of this Bitcoin system? How can you feel safe with your money being validated by other peers. What do you do when a Concept flaw arrives - and trust me, software is the last certain thing in your life.
1131 2010-12-02 11:28:24 <altamic> concept flaw? I've still not found it
1132 2010-12-02 11:28:39 <sktrdie> Software = bugs, it's inevitable.
1133 2010-12-02 11:29:12 <sktrdie> If paypal has a bug, I still have their assurance.
1134 2010-12-02 11:29:25 <altamic> please do yourself a favour read bitcoin.pdf
1135 2010-12-02 11:29:36 <altamic> and get into the code
1136 2010-12-02 11:29:52 <sktrdie> altamic: If you provide a link to this pdf, I would be happy to
1137 2010-12-02 11:30:16 <altamic> http://lmgtfy.com/
1138 2010-12-02 11:30:31 <sktrdie> altamic: if you want every user to get into the code, i'm not sure you will be very successful with building a market for this.
1139 2010-12-02 11:30:51 <altamic> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin+pdf
1140 2010-12-02 11:31:20 <TheAncientGoat> altamic: :\
1141 2010-12-02 11:32:26 <btcex> sktrdie: what OS do you use?
1142 2010-12-02 11:32:38 <[Noodles]> i'm not into the code and trust it anyway more than i would with any bank
1143 2010-12-02 11:33:07 <Keefe> total network power is around 80 ghps now :)
1144 2010-12-02 11:33:19 <sktrdie> [Noodles]: you trust the community too much then - software is flawed, that's a fact.
1145 2010-12-02 11:33:20 <altamic> the system is based on a concept that is decoupled from its implementation
1146 2010-12-02 11:33:46 <[Noodles]> its not the community that i trust, its the concept
1147 2010-12-02 11:33:52 <btcex> sktrdie: Do you use online banking?
1148 2010-12-02 11:33:58 <btcex> sktrdie: what OS do you use?
1149 2010-12-02 11:34:20 <btcex> Are you sure that these programs are no contain errors?
1150 2010-12-02 11:34:31 <sktrdie> sending bits around will always involve errors. when the errors occurs and your money is on the line, you'll start not trusting the concept so much.
1151 2010-12-02 11:34:45 <sktrdie> btcex: i use online banking such as paypal, yes i do.
1152 2010-12-02 11:35:00 <btcex> sktrdie: you know about november SSL bug, for example?
1153 2010-12-02 11:35:11 <[Noodles]> and do you use software to use paypal? ^.^
1154 2010-12-02 11:35:14 <sktrdie> i don't, my money is assured by the organization.
1155 2010-12-02 11:35:29 <[Noodles]> so you trust that organization
1156 2010-12-02 11:35:32 <sktrdie> and the organization is no point to fail - i wouldn't use it otherwise.
1157 2010-12-02 11:35:35 <sktrdie> [Noodles]: yes i do.
1158 2010-12-02 11:35:36 <btcex> sktrdie: The less you know you sleep tight
1159 2010-12-02 11:35:51 <[Noodles]> and you pay for that trust with any single transaction
1160 2010-12-02 11:36:23 <sktrdie> I understand, but I still have that one central place I can call when there's an issue.
1161 2010-12-02 11:36:44 <btcex> sktrdie: and theн answer that everything is in order
1162 2010-12-02 11:36:46 <sktrdie> With bicoin, I can't have this assurance.
1163 2010-12-02 11:36:52 <btcex> sktrdie: and theн answer that everything is пщщв
1164 2010-12-02 11:36:54 <[Noodles]> and what about paypay-fraudsters? do you trust them too?
1165 2010-12-02 11:36:55 <btcex> sktrdie: and theн answer that everything is good
1166 2010-12-02 11:37:00 <[Noodles]> *paypal
1167 2010-12-02 11:37:11 <btcex> sorry, language switch issue
1168 2010-12-02 11:37:44 <TheAncientGoat> He has a point guys
1169 2010-12-02 11:38:04 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: What is needed is a bitcoin bank, which can assure your bitcoins
1170 2010-12-02 11:38:05 <btcex> mankind has been forced to rely on software
1171 2010-12-02 11:38:35 <[Noodles]> with bitcoin, YOU are your own bank
1172 2010-12-02 11:39:02 <TheAncientGoat> [Noodles]: Sure, but then I rely on the software completely
1173 2010-12-02 11:39:04 <altamic> TheAncientGoat: davout is working on it
1174 2010-12-02 11:39:11 <TheAncientGoat> And if the software fails, I'm screwed
1175 2010-12-02 11:39:20 <[Noodles]> like you rely on paypals software
1176 2010-12-02 11:39:35 <btcex> TheAncientGoat: Yes, he needs a bank, where he would be able to come and stand in line, mocked and write a complaint. With pen!
1177 2010-12-02 11:39:35 <[Noodles]> wheres the difference?
1178 2010-12-02 11:39:38 <btcex> :)
1179 2010-12-02 11:39:38 <sktrdie> if paypal software screws up, I can call them up.
1180 2010-12-02 11:40:01 <TheAncientGoat> Exactly
1181 2010-12-02 11:40:54 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1182 2010-12-02 11:40:59 <btcex> sktrdie: for what?
1183 2010-12-02 11:41:02 <TheAncientGoat> Paypal is an organization, and if they lose my money I can hold them accountable
1184 2010-12-02 11:41:23 <TheAncientGoat> No one is accountable here, other than the third party services
1185 2010-12-02 11:42:09 <btcex> sktrdie: if your bitcoin wallet will be broken you can call to me. :)
1186 2010-12-02 11:42:34 <btcex> with same result
1187 2010-12-02 11:42:45 <[Noodles]> just send me all your coins, i'll keep them safe, promise ^.^
1188 2010-12-02 11:43:03 <TheAncientGoat> sktrdie: But you should also see here that accountability can be provided through third party services
1189 2010-12-02 11:43:23 darrob has joined
1190 2010-12-02 11:43:42 larsig_ has joined
1191 2010-12-02 11:44:06 <larsig_> someone want to do a phone call for bitcoins? contact me
1192 2010-12-02 11:44:46 KingDread has joined
1193 2010-12-02 11:44:50 <[Noodles]> phone-sex for bitcoins? o.0
1194 2010-12-02 11:45:09 <xelister> TheAncientGoat: paypal will fuck you over if they loose your money - and you can then suck theirs managers board's collective disk
1195 2010-12-02 11:45:12 <xelister> TheAncientGoat: paypal will fuck you over if they loose your money - and you can then suck theirs managers board's collective dick
1196 2010-12-02 11:46:19 <TheAncientGoat> xelister: And look at the bad publicity it has got them
1197 2010-12-02 11:46:23 <larsig_> i need to call my phone company to activate my phone
1198 2010-12-02 11:47:17 <xelister> TheAncientGoat: none, they dont give a fuck
1199 2010-12-02 11:48:02 <btcex> sktrdie: Theoretically possible that your money from the account will disappear as a result of a failure and nothing you can prove. So it makes no difference with bitcoin. (Also bitcoin client software is easier than Paypal software.)
1200 2010-12-02 11:48:19 <btcex> sktrdie: From paypal account*
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1202 2010-12-02 11:48:51 <xelister> larsig_: well sounds interesting... but better if someone from same country does it :)
1203 2010-12-02 11:48:56 <TheAncientGoat> xelister: BS, how did you dinf out about it? What about all the competing services that use paypal's behaviour as a reason to use their alternative service
1204 2010-12-02 11:49:05 <TheAncientGoat> find*
1205 2010-12-02 11:49:17 <xelister> TheAncientGoat: they dont give rats ass, and you are a living proove
1206 2010-12-02 11:49:34 <daveparrish> If I have bitcoin.conf setup, how can I use username and password on the commandline using bitcoind?
1207 2010-12-02 11:49:36 <TheAncientGoat> xelister: I don't use their service
1208 2010-12-02 11:49:50 <TheAncientGoat> Because of the bad publicity they have
1209 2010-12-02 11:49:56 <xelister> it seems paypal fucked over some guy frozing his account "because", he lost thousands, and what bad publicity? none: you didnt heared about this incident, and I even can't google that article now
1210 2010-12-02 11:50:22 <TheAncientGoat> I have heard about multiple times paypal has frozen accounts
1211 2010-12-02 11:50:28 <xelister> daveparrish: no need to use it.  it is needed for miner and so on
1212 2010-12-02 11:50:29 <TheAncientGoat> it's over the internet every couple of weeks
1213 2010-12-02 11:51:42 <TheAncientGoat> xelister: Anyhow, no use in arguing with you, seeing as you supposedly know all the information I am exposed to and not, as well as the services I use and don't
1214 2010-12-02 11:52:11 <btcex> daveparrish:  username and password used automatically by bitcoin CLI binary
1215 2010-12-02 11:52:29 <btcex> or by chrome bitcoin plug-in
1216 2010-12-02 11:52:49 <[Noodles]> daveparrish: if you'v user/pass in the bitcoin.conf, you just need to start "bitcoind -server" (can also set server=1 in the bitcoin.conf), it's just (remote) miners that need the user/pass
1217 2010-12-02 11:53:50 <[Noodles]> other other stuff besides miners that connect to JSON
1218 2010-12-02 11:53:54 <[Noodles]> *or
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1220 2010-12-02 11:55:15 <[Noodles]> here's a sample bitcoin.conf, showing all options http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=running_bitcoin
1221 2010-12-02 11:57:24 <daveparrish> I see, I was changing the bitcoin.conf password while bitcoind was running.  That was giving me an error when I tried to run any command afterwords.
1222 2010-12-02 12:11:22 larsig_ has joined
1223 2010-12-02 12:12:20 <xelister> U.S. Army medic has been sentenced to nine months in prison after pleading guilty to shooting at unarmed farmers in Afghanistan.
1224 2010-12-02 12:14:19 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1225 2010-12-02 12:14:21 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95084 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1683 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 3 hours, 1 minute, and 7 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10345.84521105
1226 2010-12-02 12:17:10 RazielZ has joined
1227 2010-12-02 12:20:03 <btcex> xelister: http://i.neoseeker.com/n/0/tf2_medic_thumb.jpg
1228 2010-12-02 12:22:23 mtgox has joined
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1230 2010-12-02 12:32:33 <xelister> btcex: yeah. god bless usa, where medics murder civilians ;)
1231 2010-12-02 12:33:00 <btcex> It's been therapeutic bullets
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1234 2010-12-02 12:42:06 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1247 2010-12-02 13:16:56 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1248 2010-12-02 13:16:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95093 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1674 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 2 hours, 27 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10317.04130754
1249 2010-12-02 13:22:48 Rawnasaurus has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1250 2010-12-02 13:27:44 <bencoder> price going back up, nice
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1254 2010-12-02 13:36:59 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 66000
1255 2010-12-02 13:37:00 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 66000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 6 days, 2 hours, 1 minute, and 30 seconds
1256 2010-12-02 13:37:09 [Noodles] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1257 2010-12-02 13:37:19 <Kiba> at this rate, we will only generate a block every six days!
1258 2010-12-02 13:37:43 <btcex> we need GPU pooled mining
1259 2010-12-02 13:40:10 <xelister> pooled mining sounds like a fraud to me ;)
1260 2010-12-02 13:40:27 <xelister> we may need smaller blocks, like ever 2 minutes a x5 easier block
1261 2010-12-02 13:42:12 <btcex> xelister: disagree. difficulty will be highter and then will need less and less smaller blocks
1262 2010-12-02 13:42:29 <btcex> pooled mining is a great idea
1263 2010-12-02 13:42:59 [Noodles] has joined
1264 2010-12-02 13:47:15 <xelister> btcex: yea greate idea
1265 2010-12-02 13:47:23 <xelister> btcex: ok join my pooling server
1266 2010-12-02 13:47:30 <xelister> I will not keep the winning hash for myself or anything <_<
1267 2010-12-02 13:48:04 <btcex> xelister: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/bitcoin-pool/ I am use server from this doc
1268 2010-12-02 13:48:35 <btcex> my khash/s as 533
1269 2010-12-02 13:48:37 <btcex> :)
1270 2010-12-02 13:55:07 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 70000
1271 2010-12-02 13:55:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 70000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 5 days, 17 hours, 40 minutes, and 51 seconds
1272 2010-12-02 13:55:13 <Kiba> yay!
1273 2010-12-02 13:56:02 altamic has joined
1274 2010-12-02 13:58:01 <Kiba> we finally have a ball chance in hell of generating a bitcoin block!
1275 2010-12-02 13:59:19 <bill__> is the difficulty still going up consistently?
1276 2010-12-02 14:14:16 <darrob> hi, i just started playing around with bc. i installed bitcoind and downloaded the blockchain. on the bitcoin faucet website it says i would get some bitcoins after doing so, but getbalance still shows 0. does this not work when using tor or something?
1277 2010-12-02 14:14:58 <pankkake> generating bitcoins is very slow
1278 2010-12-02 14:18:14 <darrob> pankkake: was that directed at me? i understand that and i don't even plan on generating. i was referring to what it says on http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/.
1279 2010-12-02 14:18:32 <pankkake> oh
1280 2010-12-02 14:18:52 <pankkake> yeah you should receive that quickly, if you don't something is not working
1281 2010-12-02 14:19:02 <darrob> i was hoping for a cent (or something) to send around
1282 2010-12-02 14:19:56 <btcex> darrob: provide your address and I send 0.05 for you
1283 2010-12-02 14:21:05 <xelister> darrob: did it said your IP was already used? if not, check ballance again
1284 2010-12-02 14:21:17 <gavinandresen> darrob:  how many blocks did you download?
1285 2010-12-02 14:22:00 <nelisky> andrew12: I WIN!!!
1286 2010-12-02 14:22:38 <nelisky> andrew12: but because I'm also the house, new pick3 in http://taabl.datlatec.com/details?pick=3.95066 primed with my winnings ;) If you are feeling inclined to try again.
1287 2010-12-02 14:24:21 <darrob> xelister: yes, the website states that because i access it through Tor. if new installations also get those coins by IP, that would explain why it doesn't work.
1288 2010-12-02 14:24:40 <btcex> Promotion: National Radio Show Interview about Bitcoin
1289 2010-12-02 14:25:03 sgtstein has joined
1290 2010-12-02 14:25:04 <btcex> National Radio Show is an internet radio or radiowawes radio?
1291 2010-12-02 14:25:07 sgtstein has left ()
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1294 2010-12-02 14:27:19 <darrob> btcex: wonderful, thank you. i'm still struggling with (my understanding of) accounts and addresses using bitcoind. it seems a little more clear using the gui. i'll get back to you. :)
1295 2010-12-02 14:27:52 albatross has joined
1296 2010-12-02 14:28:14 <gavinandresen> darrob: send me an email  (gavinandresen@gmail.com) if your faucet coins don't show up eventually (I'm the Faucet guy).
1297 2010-12-02 14:29:40 <btcex> gavinandresen: I would like just typing its address on freebitcoins.appspot.com :)
1298 2010-12-02 14:29:43 <nanotube> ;;bc,stats
1299 2010-12-02 14:29:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95099 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1668 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 28 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10326.16958867
1300 2010-12-02 14:29:47 <btcex> his*
1301 2010-12-02 14:30:02 <grondilu> Hi, bitcoin is using a copy of the "JSON spirit" project.  It is not packaged in debian.  Any chance the program could use a more standard lib ?
1302 2010-12-02 14:30:32 <gavinandresen> grondilu:  bitcoin includes the source of JSON spirit
1303 2010-12-02 14:30:46 <gavinandresen> grondilu:  It is just ten or so .cpp/.h files
1304 2010-12-02 14:31:24 altamic has joined
1305 2010-12-02 14:31:28 <gavinandresen> grondilu: or, to answer your question directly:  No.
1306 2010-12-02 14:31:28 <grondilu> yeah indeed, but it's not OK for debian packaging, I've been told.
1307 2010-12-02 14:31:40 <grondilu> ok
1308 2010-12-02 14:31:42 <xelister> darrob: why not just access it directly?
1309 2010-12-02 14:32:09 <btcex> grondilu: also need to ask to pack into debian script jsonawk
1310 2010-12-02 14:32:25 <btcex> (or awkjson, I forgot its name)
1311 2010-12-02 14:32:41 <darrob> gavinandresen: oh good to know. :) i'll do that sometime. thanks.
1312 2010-12-02 14:32:43 <xelister> well and get wx2.9
1313 2010-12-02 14:32:48 <btcex> it is very usable for working with bitcoin CLI from scripts
1314 2010-12-02 14:32:50 <xelister> that is a problem since 2.9 is beta
1315 2010-12-02 14:33:21 <grondilu> wx2.9 is not a problem.  We could package only bitcoind
1316 2010-12-02 14:36:03 <btcex> https://www.arin.net/announcements/2010/20101130.html IPv4 address blocks pool is empty - only seven /8s remaining in IANA free pool of IPv4 addresses,
1317 2010-12-02 14:36:12 <darrob> xelister: you mean why do i use Tor? i guess the anonymity is what i'm interested in. it's kind of like an exercise. :) you're right, of course. if tor is the only reason it doesn't work, i could play around without it for now.
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1319 2010-12-02 14:37:02 <btcex> darrob: I am tested Tor with bitcoin and it works fine for me.
1320 2010-12-02 14:37:20 <btcex> but not need do initial blocks download througth Tor
1321 2010-12-02 14:37:54 <btcex> through*
1322 2010-12-02 14:37:55 <darrob> btcex: do you mean it works in general or also the receiving of free coins?
1323 2010-12-02 14:38:00 <[Noodles]> its not bitcoin, its the faucet having trouble tracking individuals using tor i guess
1324 2010-12-02 14:38:04 <btcex> This makes no sense
1325 2010-12-02 14:38:13 <Kiba> I like the omosis education I get from being part of the bitcoin community
1326 2010-12-02 14:38:23 <btcex> darrob: What is 'free coins'?
1327 2010-12-02 14:38:27 <xelister> darrob: simply the fauces limits its free coins to one giveaway per IP, and with TOR thousands of people use same IP of exit nodes
1328 2010-12-02 14:38:34 <xelister> fauced
1329 2010-12-02 14:39:33 <[Noodles]> just tell us your bitcoin-address and i'll send you a few cents to play with
1330 2010-12-02 14:39:53 * btcex preparing to sell the IPv4 address for bitcoins :)
1331 2010-12-02 14:40:03 <darrob> xelister: that's what i suspected. thanks.
1332 2010-12-02 14:40:24 bill__ has quit (Quit: leaving)
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1335 2010-12-02 14:42:28 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1336 2010-12-02 14:42:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95100 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1667 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 3 hours, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10247.94084452
1337 2010-12-02 14:43:41 DeadNight has joined
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1347 2010-12-02 15:14:02 <CyanDynamo> ;;bc,calc 62000
1348 2010-12-02 15:14:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 62000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 6 days, 11 hours, 26 minutes, and 46 seconds
1349 2010-12-02 15:19:40 duck1123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1350 2010-12-02 15:21:00 sgtstein has joined
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1352 2010-12-02 15:23:51 StrangeCharm has joined
1353 2010-12-02 15:24:53 <StrangeCharm> I'm trying to run bitcoin on my ubuntu machine. When I run the executable file, it starts a process called bitcoin, but I don't get a GUI. Are there any known problems that might be causing this?
1354 2010-12-02 15:26:32 <brocktice> StrangeCharm: that's the daemon
1355 2010-12-02 15:26:39 <brocktice> oh wait
1356 2010-12-02 15:26:46 <brocktice> bitcoin not bitcoind?
1357 2010-12-02 15:26:54 <brocktice> sometimes it takes a short while to show the GUI
1358 2010-12-02 15:26:57 <brocktice> I'm not sure why
1359 2010-12-02 15:27:24 <StrangeCharm> brocktice, i tried running the daemon too, but i was referring to bitcoin
1360 2010-12-02 15:27:33 <StrangeCharm> after an hour, i stopped the process
1361 2010-12-02 15:27:38 <brocktice> ok that's too long
1362 2010-12-02 15:27:43 <StrangeCharm> that's what i thought
1363 2010-12-02 15:28:00 <StrangeCharm> is there a makefile that i can use to compile from source for my environment?
1364 2010-12-02 15:28:13 <brocktice> you could but it's a pain
1365 2010-12-02 15:28:18 <brocktice> have you checked it with ldd?
1366 2010-12-02 15:28:26 <brocktice> which ubuntu?
1367 2010-12-02 15:28:27 <StrangeCharm> ldd?
1368 2010-12-02 15:28:35 <brocktice> ldd ./bitcoin
1369 2010-12-02 15:28:37 <brocktice> see if it says not found
1370 2010-12-02 15:28:44 <brocktice> but it shouldn't even start up if that doesn't work
1371 2010-12-02 15:30:44 StrangeCharm has quit (Disconnected by services)
1372 2010-12-02 15:30:58 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1373 2010-12-02 15:31:00 StrangeCharm has joined
1374 2010-12-02 15:31:06 <StrangeCharm> ldd says a bunch of stuff,
1375 2010-12-02 15:31:07 <StrangeCharm> none of which i understand
1376 2010-12-02 15:31:18 <brocktice> do you see 'not found' after any of the arrows?
1377 2010-12-02 15:31:35 <StrangeCharm> no, they're all hex addresses
1378 2010-12-02 15:31:51 <brocktice> ok then that's not the issue
1379 2010-12-02 15:31:57 <brocktice> which ubuntu?
1380 2010-12-02 15:32:52 <brocktice> cat /etc/issue if you're not sure
1381 2010-12-02 15:33:15 duck1123 has joined
1382 2010-12-02 15:33:37 <StrangeCharm> 10.04
1383 2010-12-02 15:33:44 <brocktice> 64-bit?
1384 2010-12-02 15:33:56 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1385 2010-12-02 15:33:59 <StrangeCharm> 32
1386 2010-12-02 15:34:04 <StrangeCharm> i'm using the 32-bit binary
1387 2010-12-02 15:34:19 <brocktice> hm
1388 2010-12-02 15:34:25 lfm has joined
1389 2010-12-02 15:34:25 <brocktice> works fine for me on 10.04 64-bit
1390 2010-12-02 15:34:36 <brocktice> you try it a few times?
1391 2010-12-02 15:34:42 <brocktice> also does bitcoind work?
1392 2010-12-02 15:34:49 <StrangeCharm> i have no idea
1393 2010-12-02 15:34:53 <StrangeCharm> it creates a process
1394 2010-12-02 15:35:03 <brocktice> after you start it then do bitcoind getinfo
1395 2010-12-02 15:36:00 <StrangeCharm> bitcoind getinfo gives bitcoind: command not found
1396 2010-12-02 15:36:16 <brocktice> ./bitcoind getinfo?
1397 2010-12-02 15:36:37 <brocktice> is there a file bitcoind there?
1398 2010-12-02 15:36:47 <StrangeCharm> in the /bin/32? yes
1399 2010-12-02 15:37:08 <StrangeCharm> error, i have to set a password in the conf file, apparently
1400 2010-12-02 15:37:19 <brocktice> hrm
1401 2010-12-02 15:37:23 <brocktice> forgot about that
1402 2010-12-02 15:37:44 <brocktice> well, perhaps someone more expert on the GUI like gavinandresen might have a better idea of what's going on
1403 2010-12-02 15:38:25 <StrangeCharm> so, that sounds like the daemon is working?
1404 2010-12-02 15:38:33 <brocktice> well, starting at least
1405 2010-12-02 15:38:53 <brocktice> create a file ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
1406 2010-12-02 15:38:56 <brocktice> add two lines
1407 2010-12-02 15:39:01 <brocktice> rpcuser=someuser
1408 2010-12-02 15:39:09 <StrangeCharm> is there any functionality in the daemon that's not in the gui client?
1409 2010-12-02 15:39:09 <brocktice> rpcpassword=somepassword
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1412 2010-12-02 15:39:27 <brocktice> Not that you probably care about
1413 2010-12-02 15:39:30 <[Noodles]> just try -help, should work without JSON
1414 2010-12-02 15:39:32 <brocktice> I'm just trying to isolate th eproblem
1415 2010-12-02 15:39:52 <[Noodles]> with user and pass he still need to start with -server
1416 2010-12-02 15:40:02 <brocktice> [Noodles]: not bitcoind though
1417 2010-12-02 15:40:09 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm:   tail -f ~/.bitcoin/debug.log    ... will show you what bitcoin/bitcoind is up to, and might help debug the problem.
1418 2010-12-02 15:40:14 <brocktice> I just want to see if bitcoind can start up and connect ot the network
1419 2010-12-02 15:40:16 <[Noodles]> oh, ok then ^.^
1420 2010-12-02 15:40:16 <brocktice> Ah, good call
1421 2010-12-02 15:40:35 jrabbit has joined
1422 2010-12-02 15:41:25 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm:  ... and Noodles advice is good; I put   server=1   in my bitcoin.conf, so I can talk to the GUI bitcoin via the command line if I want.
1423 2010-12-02 15:42:39 <StrangeCharm> with server=1, and the username and pass, i can control everything from the cli, whichever version i start?
1424 2010-12-02 15:43:04 <StrangeCharm> so, i'm looking at tail, and it's doing loads of stuff, none of which seems to be broken
1425 2010-12-02 15:44:51 <StrangeCharm> now when i run bitcoind then bitcoind getinfo i get error: couldn't connect to server
1426 2010-12-02 15:45:06 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm: ./bitcoind getinfo   .... is also really useful for debugging.
1427 2010-12-02 15:45:48 <gavinandresen> As for the GUI not appearing:  make sure your DISPLAY isn't pointing somewhere weird.
1428 2010-12-02 15:45:55 <StrangeCharm> DISPLAY?
1429 2010-12-02 15:46:01 <StrangeCharm> well, bitcoind seems to be ok
1430 2010-12-02 15:46:17 <gavinandresen> X environment variable...    echo $DISPLAY   at the cli
1431 2010-12-02 15:46:19 <StrangeCharm> that is: now bitcoind getinfo tells me something sensible
1432 2010-12-02 15:46:33 <StrangeCharm> :0.0
1433 2010-12-02 15:46:41 <gavinandresen> :0.0 is reasonable
1434 2010-12-02 15:47:02 <StrangeCharm> all my other gui apps seem to work ok
1435 2010-12-02 15:47:39 <StrangeCharm> maybe i should just learn the config, run bitcoind, and do everything that way?
1436 2010-12-02 15:48:05 <gavinandresen> I rarely run the GUI-- the only feature it has that bitcoind doesn't have is "send to IP address", but that's a misfeature in my opinion.
1437 2010-12-02 15:48:47 <StrangeCharm> where's the documentation for the cli?
1438 2010-12-02 15:48:58 <gavinandresen> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api
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1441 2010-12-02 15:49:36 <necrodearia> ACK!
1442 2010-12-02 15:49:43 <necrodearia> Does anyone know about mtgox.com going crazy?
1443 2010-12-02 15:50:05 <StrangeCharm> what about the correct contents for the conf file?
1444 2010-12-02 15:50:10 <necrodearia> I just tried buying some bitcoins and did not have any sell orders, however all the bitcoins I bought were sold instantly and I lost money.
1445 2010-12-02 15:50:29 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=running_bitcoin
1446 2010-12-02 15:50:49 <brocktice> gavinandresen: wrong, the GUI also lists ALL transactions :)
1447 2010-12-02 15:51:11 <gavinandresen> brocktice: you're right, I sit corrected.
1448 2010-12-02 15:51:41 <StrangeCharm> two more: do settings (like proxy, whether to generate coins &c made by the gui get written to the conf file); and how frequently are blocks written out to disk?
1449 2010-12-02 15:51:54 <necrodearia> Here's a history of my mtgox trades: http://pastebin.com/LFEx57TB
1450 2010-12-02 15:52:11 <necrodearia> I emailed to support@mtgox.com already.
1451 2010-12-02 15:52:13 <albatross> what is the equivalent to the listtransactions patch in the mainline? is there a combination that i could use for same effect?
1452 2010-12-02 15:52:59 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm:  setting changes made in the GUI are written to the wallet.dat file; bitcoin will never write bitcoin.conf.  bitcoind DOES read wallet.dat, though (after reading bitcoin.conf)
1453 2010-12-02 15:53:00 mizerydearia has joined
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1457 2010-12-02 15:53:38 <StrangeCharm> got it
1458 2010-12-02 15:53:41 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm: and blocks are written to disk as they are received, I believe.  Next version of bitcoin will contain a couple of optimizations to make the initial block download writing faster.
1459 2010-12-02 15:54:04 <StrangeCharm> all good. thanks, gavinandresen, brocktice
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1471 2010-12-02 16:05:51 <nanotube> gavinandresen: yea, really, if bitcoind had a 'full' listtransactions, only then i'd have no need for gui. :)
1472 2010-12-02 16:06:49 <gavinandresen> nanotube: what's your use case?
1473 2010-12-02 16:07:02 <gavinandresen> (how are you using "full" listtransactions)
1474 2010-12-02 16:08:04 <nanotube> gavinandresen: i want to see the transactions i have received. :)
1475 2010-12-02 16:08:07 <nanotube> (and sent)
1476 2010-12-02 16:08:20 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  are you using labels/accounts ?
1477 2010-12-02 16:08:23 <nanotube> e.g., if someone is sending me something, i want to say "aha, there's the tx, 0/conf"
1478 2010-12-02 16:09:33 <nanotube> labels, yes, accounts, no. :)
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1481 2010-12-02 16:10:35 <albatross> i never understood why the gui shows it but it was not accessible via RPC...i just figured there was another way to get it but i just didn't know how
1482 2010-12-02 16:10:57 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  So you want:    listtransactions '*'     or some other way of just listing all transactions for all labels/accounts.
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1485 2010-12-02 16:11:28 <nanotube> gavinandresen: yes pretty much. or even "listtransactions * <number>" to list <number> most recent ones.
1486 2010-12-02 16:12:33 <jgarzik> nanotube: xlisttransactions :)
1487 2010-12-02 16:12:44 <nanotube> i don't really need to see the really old ones very often. but to see a few most recent ones is frequently needed.
1488 2010-12-02 16:12:48 <albatross> i think this would pretty much complete the full feature set, so someone could write another gui client with the same functionality (if one were so inclined)
1489 2010-12-02 16:12:57 <nanotube> jgarzik: what's that?
1490 2010-12-02 16:13:05 <jgarzik> nanotube: my version of listtransactions, renamed
1491 2010-12-02 16:13:33 <jgarzik> nanotube: gives you exactly what you're looking for
1492 2010-12-02 16:13:35 <nanotube> jgarzik: ah hehe i see. i am hoping your version will make it into trunk :)
1493 2010-12-02 16:13:53 <nanotube> i don't much fancy having to patch and compile for every release. :P
1494 2010-12-02 16:14:18 <albatross> nanotube: yea...getting old real fast. I'm so glad i don't have to do it for getwork anymore
1495 2010-12-02 16:14:20 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1496 2010-12-02 16:14:23 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95113 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1654 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, 40 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10277.68759901
1497 2010-12-02 16:14:34 <brocktice> goddamn
1498 2010-12-02 16:15:24 <gavinandresen> Getting the API right is the hard part, especially for edge cases like "send 100 bitcoins from account A to one of the addresses owned by account B"  (or, worse, "account A to address of account A")
1499 2010-12-02 16:16:31 <gavinandresen> But I think a  listtransactions '*' <count>  would be easy, if you don't care about performance for very-large wallets.
1500 2010-12-02 16:18:15 <nanotube> well i don't have a very large wallet so personally no. :) but really, shouldn't it be easy to pull a few items out of the db? 'select * from sometable order by date limit X' should scale pretty well...
1501 2010-12-02 16:18:35 <nanotube> databases tend to be pretty good at that stuff. :)
1502 2010-12-02 16:18:43 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  Berkeley DB is a key/value store, there's no 'select *'
1503 2010-12-02 16:19:37 <nanotube> well... that's another thing. :) the db backend should be abstracted... so people can stick the wallet into say... mysql or postgre. :)
1504 2010-12-02 16:19:45 <gavinandresen> nanotube: to make it efficient, we'd have to create an index table on transaction time......
1505 2010-12-02 16:20:15 <nanotube> yea, otherwise have to iterate over the whole db every time. heh
1506 2010-12-02 16:20:17 <albatross> i'm subscribing to nanotube's newsletter :)
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1509 2010-12-02 16:21:58 <nanotube> gavinandresen: how about in the conf file, database=<db address>; dbuser=<dbuser>; dbpass=<dbpass>. :) default db would be something like "bdb:~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat". but i could set it to "mysql:somehost:port" if i wanted to.
1510 2010-12-02 16:22:14 <nelisky> nanotube: or mongodb :) schema-less ftw
1511 2010-12-02 16:22:18 Hogofwar has joined
1512 2010-12-02 16:22:29 <Hogofwar> Hey
1513 2010-12-02 16:22:53 <gavinandresen> nanotube, nelisky:  knock yourselves out.   Personally, I don't think bitcoin needs more "only for uber-geeks" features, like running on arbitrary databases.
1514 2010-12-02 16:23:10 <Hogofwar> It needs to be easier to startw ith
1515 2010-12-02 16:23:13 <brocktice> nanotube has a newsletter?
1516 2010-12-02 16:23:13 <nanotube> gavinandresen: that's what a large tx processor would want.
1517 2010-12-02 16:23:19 <nanotube> Hogofwar: o/ :)
1518 2010-12-02 16:23:25 <nanotube> brocktice: no, but i should. hehe :)
1519 2010-12-02 16:23:30 <nelisky> gavinadresen: it wouldn't need to, for the masses, just a clearly abstracted interface on the default implementation
1520 2010-12-02 16:23:31 <Hogofwar> Well we need an eaier service to exchange "real world" currency to bitcoins
1521 2010-12-02 16:23:31 <nanotube> well, there's the ,,googlegroup
1522 2010-12-02 16:23:31 <gribble> Like your discussions over email? Join the bitcoin-discussion google group! http://groups.google.com/group/bitcoin-discussion
1523 2010-12-02 16:23:33 <nelisky> think miners
1524 2010-12-02 16:23:41 <gavinandresen> nanotube: sure, and a large tx processor will have on-staff programmers to implement it.  If they're nice, they'll share their code....
1525 2010-12-02 16:24:13 <nanotube> heh well... my large tx processor i mean, any website that has users, and thus a lot of tx
1526 2010-12-02 16:24:33 <Hogofwar> Can somebody help me implement using bitcoind with java using json rpc?
1527 2010-12-02 16:24:40 <nanotube> gavinandresen: is it really nice to basically force websites to code their own custom bitcoin?
1528 2010-12-02 16:24:49 <albatross> gavinandresen: one feature that should be done is to revamp bitcoin.org. change is so it is targeted for newbies with no technical experience. Too many people come and get caught up in the mining bit...
1529 2010-12-02 16:25:05 <brocktice> nanotube: It's fair to say though that it's a lower priority for the core bitcoin client than other rhings.
1530 2010-12-02 16:25:08 <brocktice> *things
1531 2010-12-02 16:25:14 <nanotube> true, i do not disagree
1532 2010-12-02 16:25:22 <nanotube> this is something i was thinking of 'for the future'
1533 2010-12-02 16:25:47 <gavinandresen> albatross:  I agree 100%.  Satoshi asked me if I'd work on improved working for bitcoin.org, but I haven't had time.
1534 2010-12-02 16:25:51 <Kiba> mining should be emphasisized as a way to secure the network while getting compensated for such effort
1535 2010-12-02 16:26:28 <albatross> kiba: mining is not an end-user task anymore.
1536 2010-12-02 16:26:30 <gavinandresen> nanotube:   If websites run into Berkeley DB transaction handling limits, that would be a very good problem for bitcoin to have.
1537 2010-12-02 16:26:30 necrodearia has joined
1538 2010-12-02 16:26:33 <necrodearia> ;;botsnack
1539 2010-12-02 16:26:33 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
1540 2010-12-02 16:26:40 <Kiba> albatross: it can be with pooled mining!
1541 2010-12-02 16:26:51 necrodearia has left ()
1542 2010-12-02 16:27:03 <nanotube> gavinandresen: hehe i guess.
1543 2010-12-02 16:27:26 <Kiba> 86 clients are contributing 64000 Khash/s
1544 2010-12-02 16:28:06 <albatross> kiba: it is about using an anonymous payment system. no amount of pooled mining will be efficient when you have competing companies running gpu farms
1545 2010-12-02 16:28:51 <Kiba> we need to ensure the security of bitcoin
1546 2010-12-02 16:29:17 <Kiba> and bitcoin is more than just an anonymous payment system, it's a currency!
1547 2010-12-02 16:29:18 <brocktice> Kiba: one 5770 can do 3x your pool of 86 clients.
1548 2010-12-02 16:29:30 <brocktice> for $120 investment
1549 2010-12-02 16:29:34 <xelister> lolololololol
1550 2010-12-02 16:29:38 <nanotube> brocktice: yes, but there are a lot more 'people with idle cpus' than 'people with idle 5770s' ;)
1551 2010-12-02 16:29:41 * xelister makes fun of the 86 idiots in pool :P
1552 2010-12-02 16:29:56 <brocktice> Maybe, but it's just a tiny tiny drop in the bucket
1553 2010-12-02 16:29:59 * Kiba justify his effort as contributing security
1554 2010-12-02 16:30:03 <nanotube> xelister: then you might as well make fun of all the idiots who run folding@home and things like that.
1555 2010-12-02 16:30:12 grondilu has joined
1556 2010-12-02 16:30:18 <Kiba> hey, folding@home help people
1557 2010-12-02 16:30:18 <xelister> have each of the guys in pool chip in 2 USD, and you will all mine x3 faster by heaving one of you buying 5770
1558 2010-12-02 16:30:22 <Kiba> one would hope
1559 2010-12-02 16:30:23 <[Noodles]> you call people contributing security to the system idiots?
1560 2010-12-02 16:30:45 <Kiba> xelister: interesting, idea.
1561 2010-12-02 16:30:46 <nanotube> i, for one, applaud the pooled mining efforts.
1562 2010-12-02 16:30:49 <Kiba> interesting idea*
1563 2010-12-02 16:31:14 <brocktice> It's not a bad idea, but performance per watt/dollar it's terrible
1564 2010-12-02 16:31:16 <brocktice> compared to the alternatives
1565 2010-12-02 16:31:20 <xelister> nanotube: folding at home doesnt usually have guys folding at their 386's CPUs
1566 2010-12-02 16:31:38 <xelister> everyone mining on CPU is idiot imo
1567 2010-12-02 16:31:39 <[Noodles]> no matzter how low your contribution is, it helps us all, of course you wont make any money (if you have to pay for energy)
1568 2010-12-02 16:31:41 <TheAncientGoat> Can hashes be visually represented?
1569 2010-12-02 16:31:43 <[Noodles]> -z
1570 2010-12-02 16:31:49 <Kiba> xelister: I am using it to heat my room
1571 2010-12-02 16:31:50 <xelister> well ok not idiot - but he just wastes his resourcess
1572 2010-12-02 16:31:54 <albatross> if bitcoin becomes successful, i see a future where a handful of companies are running 10-50 Thash/sec to support the system. Not the 'distributed processing' that satoshi envisioned. However, i believe that will be the reality
1573 2010-12-02 16:32:02 <xelister> Kiba: cpu and hardware will faster ware out
1574 2010-12-02 16:32:03 <nanotube> TheAncientGoat: yes, as a string of hexadecimal digits. :)
1575 2010-12-02 16:32:17 <TheAncientGoat> nanotube: :P
1576 2010-12-02 16:32:23 <[Noodles]> noone's wasting ressources, it's just that some make profit, others don't
1577 2010-12-02 16:32:30 <xelister> TheAncientGoat: sure
1578 2010-12-02 16:32:41 <xelister> [Noodles]: yea, but they should just run non-generating nodes
1579 2010-12-02 16:32:51 <xelister> why loose elecricity, its so none-sense
1580 2010-12-02 16:32:52 <[Noodles]> why?
1581 2010-12-02 16:33:07 <[Noodles]> maybe they just want to help
1582 2010-12-02 16:33:15 <xelister> they organized 80 people to PERHAPS get 1 USD per person in next half-year
1583 2010-12-02 16:33:22 <xelister> this does not help
1584 2010-12-02 16:33:22 <[Noodles]> why loose electricity running SETI?
1585 2010-12-02 16:33:32 <Kiba> no, it's in a week, xelister
1586 2010-12-02 16:33:34 <xelister> because with SETI you actually calcualte a lot of information
1587 2010-12-02 16:33:34 <[Noodles]> makes no sense at all, still people do it
1588 2010-12-02 16:33:59 <Kiba> the likelyhood of discovering an extraterrestial signal is unknown
1589 2010-12-02 16:34:13 <xelister> and with CPU mining their "help" is irrevelant, and they could instead just chip in like 2 USD to get the better card
1590 2010-12-02 16:34:37 <[Noodles]> they could
1591 2010-12-02 16:34:46 <[Noodles]> dont blame 'em if they dont
1592 2010-12-02 16:35:12 <xelister> Kiba: mining with CPU is like organizing 10 people to have one i486 ancient computer joining folding@home. Its just non-sense, better use all that time nad buy any normal computer
1593 2010-12-02 16:35:30 <nanotube> you forget the barrier to entry, xelister . it's a lot easier and requires less coordination to just plug into the mining pool, than it does to collect $2 from everyone, decide who's going to be the one to run the 5770, then there's the trust issue that the person who collects can just walk away with the hardware and/or the generated blocks.
1594 2010-12-02 16:36:45 <[Noodles]> you don't need to join, but IF you want to get ANY coins at all by running ur CPU, u better should ^.^
1595 2010-12-02 16:36:58 <Kiba>  a i486 ancient computer joining folding@home might be worth the cost anyway especially if they help cure cancer
1596 2010-12-02 16:37:02 <[Noodles]> it's your only chance
1597 2010-12-02 16:37:20 <Kiba> and help us living longer
1598 2010-12-02 16:37:22 <xelister> nanotube: perhaps, what you say, but on a larget scale
1599 2010-12-02 16:37:31 <Kiba> I estimate immortality to be worth a trillion dollars a person
1600 2010-12-02 16:37:34 DeadNight is now known as DreadKnight
1601 2010-12-02 16:37:39 <xelister> you would need like 200 people to do what I do with a simple 150 usd card
1602 2010-12-02 16:37:56 <xelister> 200 people could obviously do something better with own time
1603 2010-12-02 16:38:05 <btcex> Has anyone heard about D language?
1604 2010-12-02 16:38:06 <xelister> like each one write some PR posts for bitcoin ;)
1605 2010-12-02 16:38:09 Hogofwar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1606 2010-12-02 16:38:10 <xelister> btcex: yes, it sounds very nice
1607 2010-12-02 16:38:13 <Kiba> running pool mining software require very little time, xelister
1608 2010-12-02 16:38:33 <btcex> xelister: what you think about its built-in GC?
1609 2010-12-02 16:38:37 <Kiba> with some automation, there's almost no opportunity cost
1610 2010-12-02 16:38:40 <nanotube> xelister: you forget that the actual human capital involved in running a pool mining node is zero. just turn it on and forget it. it's not like they're sitting there turning a handcrank. :)
1611 2010-12-02 16:38:47 Hogofwar has joined
1612 2010-12-02 16:39:19 <Kiba> then we all write some PR posts for bitcoin, or build business on bitcoin, or whatever it take to make bitcoin a magnificent success
1613 2010-12-02 16:39:48 <Hogofwar> yes
1614 2010-12-02 16:40:04 <btcex> Kiba: We need a reliable method of estimating the number of users
1615 2010-12-02 16:40:13 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1616 2010-12-02 16:40:20 <btcex> Without it its difficult to plan
1617 2010-12-02 16:40:26 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1618 2010-12-02 16:40:30 OneFixt has joined
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1620 2010-12-02 16:40:40 OneFixt has joined
1621 2010-12-02 16:40:41 <nanotube> btcex: count users on #bitcoin on lfnet... multiply by say... 2-3, and there's your estimate. :)
1622 2010-12-02 16:40:54 <Kiba> btcex: the nice thing about bthe bitcoin economy is that it's largely up to the user to do..not plan..
1623 2010-12-02 16:41:11 <btcex> 41 * 3 = 123
1624 2010-12-02 16:41:16 <nanotube> btcex: or you could write a client to try to recursively connect to all the nodes out there, and count them. (i think tcatm has something like that)
1625 2010-12-02 16:41:16 <btcex> 123 users of bitcoin?!
1626 2010-12-02 16:41:28 <nanotube> btcex: on lfnet
1627 2010-12-02 16:41:33 <nanotube> not freenode
1628 2010-12-02 16:41:37 <btcex> ufff :)
1629 2010-12-02 16:42:22 <btcex> nanotube: every bitcoind instance have uniq number?
1630 2010-12-02 16:42:37 <nanotube> yes
1631 2010-12-02 16:43:16 <btcex> but many users working behind the NAT
1632 2010-12-02 16:43:20 <Kiba> price is getting back up
1633 2010-12-02 16:43:26 <nanotube> btcex: they can still connect to irc.
1634 2010-12-02 16:43:31 <nanotube> i'm behind nat, and here i am, on irc. :)
1635 2010-12-02 16:43:52 <albatross> gavinandresen: are you/satoshi interested in spending btc to have someone redesign the site?
1636 2010-12-02 16:44:18 <btcex> unless you want to stay connected to IRC?
1637 2010-12-02 16:44:41 <btcex> I think bitcoin client conncts to IRC, read userslist and disconnect
1638 2010-12-02 16:44:43 <gavinandresen> albatross:  I'm not, I'm busy designing my own sites.
1639 2010-12-02 16:45:46 <btcex> in English design means artwork or not?
1640 2010-12-02 16:45:56 <albatross> gavinandresen: would satoshi?
1641 2010-12-02 16:47:17 <gavinandresen> albatross:  I dunno, you could ask him.   I bet he'd be more open to giving the designer a plug in the footer, though.
1642 2010-12-02 16:48:12 <gavinandresen> albatross: that fits the whole free/opensource/volunteer nature of the bitcoin project better, I think
1643 2010-12-02 16:48:16 DreadKnight has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1644 2010-12-02 16:48:19 KingDread has joined
1645 2010-12-02 16:48:54 <albatross> gavinandresen: would be nice to get a professional to do it though...maybe a bounty could be started
1646 2010-12-02 16:49:59 <gavinandresen> albatross: i hate bounties.   Either do it for free/reputation/warm-fuzzies, or charge what you're worth.
1647 2010-12-02 16:50:56 <nanotube> gavinandresen: how could you hate bounties? they make pretty awesome paper towels! ;)
1648 2010-12-02 16:51:05 kisom_de1 is now known as kisom_dev
1649 2010-12-02 16:51:29 <nelisky> gavinadresen: I'm with you, man! I hate coconut, just ruins the chocolate
1650 2010-12-02 16:51:49 <nanotube> nelisky: ++
1651 2010-12-02 16:51:53 <nanotube> hehe
1652 2010-12-02 16:52:03 <gavinandresen> mmmmm.... coconut.....
1653 2010-12-02 16:52:10 <Hogofwar> hmm
1654 2010-12-02 16:52:27 <nelisky> gavinadresen: don't back out on me now! You said you hated them.... sheeesh
1655 2010-12-02 16:53:13 KingDread has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1656 2010-12-02 16:53:26 <gavinandresen> nelisky: I may have been to hasty, I have never eaten a bounty.  Maybe they're tasty.
1657 2010-12-02 16:54:14 <nelisky> gavinandresen: I can mail you one ;)
1658 2010-12-02 16:54:26 <Hogofwar> I hate bounties
1659 2010-12-02 16:54:37 <nanotube> nelisky: send it over ftp. or btp, actually.
1660 2010-12-02 16:54:44 <Hogofwar> Can't get POST working in java...
1661 2010-12-02 16:55:19 altamic has joined
1662 2010-12-02 16:55:23 <nelisky> lemme get my quantum scanner, where just the observation of the bounty bar will make it here and there and in neither of the places...
1663 2010-12-02 16:55:54 <nelisky> Hogofwar: that's easy, use python :p
1664 2010-12-02 16:56:28 <gavinandresen> Hogofwar:  I've never tried to use the RCP from Java, can't help you.  You set a default authenticator as suggested at http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api
1665 2010-12-02 16:56:40 <gavinandresen> ^RCP^RPC^
1666 2010-12-02 16:58:05 <albatross> gavinandresen: i'd do it if i was a web dev/designer. unfortunately, i'm not. I guess we could post a request on the boards and someone will step up to 'do it for the fuzzies' :)
1667 2010-12-02 16:58:14 <Hogofwar> I have to use java for the project i am working on nelisky
1668 2010-12-02 16:58:49 <nelisky> Hogofwar: I'm just being a dick here, I know about project constraints :)
1669 2010-12-02 16:58:56 <Hogofwar> Yes i have read thet gavinanderson but i can't find any tutorails or any packages that let me do json-rpc that i can use
1670 2010-12-02 16:59:02 <Kiba> Hogofwar: are you doing android?
1671 2010-12-02 16:59:07 <Hogofwar> the only one i found that seemed okay requires .war
1672 2010-12-02 16:59:08 <Hogofwar> No
1673 2010-12-02 16:59:16 <Hogofwar> Minecraft :P
1674 2010-12-02 16:59:21 <Kiba> eh.
1675 2010-12-02 16:59:31 <Kiba> Minecraft ain't open source though
1676 2010-12-02 16:59:48 <Hogofwar> minecraft server plugins from a third party admin mod
1677 2010-12-02 16:59:55 <Hogofwar> *for a
1678 2010-12-02 17:00:06 <Hogofwar> the admin mod is open source :P
1679 2010-12-02 17:00:15 <gavinandresen> Hogofwar:  You might also point your java POST code at:  http://gavinpostbin.appspot.com/14azg5b      ... and see what you're sending.
1680 2010-12-02 17:01:08 <gavinandresen> Hogofwar:  but be sure to change your rpcuser/rpcpassword either before or after debugging!!!
1681 2010-12-02 17:03:48 mizerydearia has joined
1682 2010-12-02 17:04:35 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1683 2010-12-02 17:05:30 mizerydearia is now known as necrodearia
1684 2010-12-02 17:09:26 <necrodearia> Has there been any consideration for writing a patch for bitcoin client to implement a kind of plugin/extension system similar or comparable to firefox extensions, pidgin plugins, etc?
1685 2010-12-02 17:10:11 duck1123_ has joined
1686 2010-12-02 17:10:27 <gavinandresen> necrodearia:  no.  Would you trust a bitcoin plugin not to steal all the coins from your wallet?
1687 2010-12-02 17:11:17 <nanotube> gavinandresen: same way you'd trust a firefox plugin not to steal your bank account login details.
1688 2010-12-02 17:11:35 <necrodearia> It depends on the reputation or established implementation.  Similarly I could consider for example, "would I trust mtgox not to steal all my bitcoins and usd that I invest into it.  I do trust mtgox because of the established reputation.
1689 2010-12-02 17:11:39 <nanotube> in other words... depends on the trustworthiness of the source. :)
1690 2010-12-02 17:12:10 duck1123 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1691 2010-12-02 17:12:16 <Kiba> addons.bitcoin.org..hmm
1692 2010-12-02 17:12:26 * necrodearia nods agreeingly ^_^
1693 2010-12-02 17:13:06 <Kiba> we need a backup and secure addons
1694 2010-12-02 17:13:19 <Kiba> to that the rest of the extensions can only have limited access to your money
1695 2010-12-02 17:13:49 <Hogofwar> \give permission for addons to do anything with your money?
1696 2010-12-02 17:14:11 <Hogofwar> Every time they try it comes up with a "do you want x to do x with your coins
1697 2010-12-02 17:14:21 <necrodearia> There could be security checks within the plugin implementation in which if the plugin is designed to send/receive bitcoins, it would need to request a permission level in which the user can confirm or deny such permission level.
1698 2010-12-02 17:14:26 <TheAncientGoat> Kiba: Where you around when doublec and I talked about creddit?
1699 2010-12-02 17:14:28 <Hogofwar> though wthere would an option to turn taht off or perma allow addons
1700 2010-12-02 17:14:44 <OneFixt> ;;bc,stats
1701 2010-12-02 17:14:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95121 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1646 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10259.15225694
1702 2010-12-02 17:14:57 <Kiba> TheAncientGoat: not sure.
1703 2010-12-02 17:15:01 <Kiba> I heard it on the forum.
1704 2010-12-02 17:15:25 <Hogofwar> creddit?
1705 2010-12-02 17:15:29 <Hogofwar> reddit?
1706 2010-12-02 17:15:42 <Kiba> you have to pay to post
1707 2010-12-02 17:16:16 <Hogofwar> wow, who would pay though?
1708 2010-12-02 17:16:39 <Hogofwar> And why wouldn't they go to a free alternative?
1709 2010-12-02 17:16:53 <Kiba> the idea is to have higher post quality
1710 2010-12-02 17:17:52 <Hogofwar> but less posts with less potential for good things to be in there
1711 2010-12-02 17:18:16 <Kiba> Hogofwar: not really, everybody get a set amount of the forum currency
1712 2010-12-02 17:18:57 <Kiba> you can post a set amount of time, buy more forum currency with bitcoin, and so on.
1713 2010-12-02 17:19:02 <Hogofwar> ooooh
1714 2010-12-02 17:19:13 <Kiba> you can horde it even
1715 2010-12-02 17:19:16 <TheAncientGoat> Hogofwar: You pay to post, but you get paid when people vote up your post
1716 2010-12-02 17:19:40 <TheAncientGoat> So you can actually profit out of the system
1717 2010-12-02 17:19:47 <Kiba> I am worried about people using it to disagree or agree though
1718 2010-12-02 17:21:35 <TheAncientGoat> What do you mean by that?
1719 2010-12-02 17:21:50 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1720 2010-12-02 17:23:00 <Kiba> vote down opinions that they merely disagree with, rather than a post that add nothing to the conversation
1721 2010-12-02 17:23:30 <albatross> kiba: exactly what happens all the time on reddit
1722 2010-12-02 17:23:56 <necrodearia> Are there and bitcoin.org webdevs here?  If so, can you please add to the css files to declare background-color and color (for text) for body and input elements?  My system's theme causes the background of both elements to be dark and black text on dark background is hard to read.  For now I am using stylish as a workaround.
1723 2010-12-02 17:24:21 <TheAncientGoat> Kiba: If you have to pay for it, it should happen less
1724 2010-12-02 17:24:38 <Kiba> really?
1725 2010-12-02 17:24:39 <Kiba> hmm
1726 2010-12-02 17:24:44 * Kiba isn't exactly convinced
1727 2010-12-02 17:25:40 <TheAncientGoat> Or, remove the downvote concept, and replace it with a "contest this post" concept
1728 2010-12-02 17:27:22 <TheAncientGoat> Where you have to state why (via checkbox or what not) the post is not constructive to the discussion. if x people agree, it gets removed/hidden and everyone gets their coins back
1729 2010-12-02 17:27:36 <wumpus> yeah, just make it a 'disagree' button, which doesn't do anything
1730 2010-12-02 17:27:43 HarryS has joined
1731 2010-12-02 17:28:05 <TheAncientGoat> This system will allow for moderating spam posts without a central moderator as well
1732 2010-12-02 17:28:16 <TheAncientGoat> wumpus: Heh, yeah, that's a good one too
1733 2010-12-02 17:28:21 <wumpus> just there for people to get a good feeling clicking it 'you just disagreed with this post!'
1734 2010-12-02 17:35:50 <Hogofwar> Give money to people who disacgree
1735 2010-12-02 17:35:56 <Hogofwar> or the other way around :P
1736 2010-12-02 17:38:07 sgtstein has joined
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1738 2010-12-02 17:47:14 necrodearia has quit (Changing host)
1739 2010-12-02 17:47:15 necrodearia has joined
1740 2010-12-02 17:51:30 <Hogofwar> okay...
1741 2010-12-02 17:51:54 <Hogofwar> was my suggestion really that bad? :P
1742 2010-12-02 17:54:39 <Kiba> naw
1743 2010-12-02 17:54:44 <Kiba> nobody is interested in talking atm
1744 2010-12-02 17:55:35 altamic has joined
1745 2010-12-02 17:56:01 necrodearia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1746 2010-12-02 17:57:10 necrodearia has joined
1747 2010-12-02 17:57:21 <TheAncientGoat> Hogofwar: You don't want to encourage it :P
1748 2010-12-02 17:59:44 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1749 2010-12-02 18:00:24 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1750 2010-12-02 18:05:51 sgornick has joined
1751 2010-12-02 18:06:29 <nanotube> necrodearia: btw, have you seen #bitcoin-discussion ? future-proofing the channel against massive influx of users (we wish) by separating devel and other discussions.
1752 2010-12-02 18:07:45 <Kiba> #bitcoin?
1753 2010-12-02 18:08:46 <nanotube> Kiba: the channel is orphaned. not registered, no ops, freenode won't do anything without group registration, which is backed up for years.
1754 2010-12-02 18:09:20 <necrodearia> nanotube, thanks for tip
1755 2010-12-02 18:09:55 <necrodearia> nanotube, Ooh, no more channel registration for #channels?
1756 2010-12-02 18:10:16 <Kiba> oh noes!
1757 2010-12-02 18:10:19 necrodearia has quit (Changing host)
1758 2010-12-02 18:10:19 necrodearia has joined
1759 2010-12-02 18:10:23 <Kiba> a channel doesn't have a parent!
1760 2010-12-02 18:11:40 <nanotube> Kiba: heh, so just join the party at -discussion.
1761 2010-12-02 18:11:48 <nanotube> though most of the party is still here. :D
1762 2010-12-02 18:17:31 [Noodles] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1763 2010-12-02 18:18:14 [Noodles] has joined
1764 2010-12-02 18:21:07 <Kiba> hmm
1765 2010-12-02 18:21:19 <Kiba> I can't see why people like to drink tea or coffee
1766 2010-12-02 18:21:21 <Kiba> it's so bitter
1767 2010-12-02 18:22:12 <btcex> Did you know that bitcoin.org has no translation to Japanese? are two types of Chinese language and not Japanese
1768 2010-12-02 18:22:16 <btcex> at all
1769 2010-12-02 18:22:56 <TheAncientGoat> 0.o
1770 2010-12-02 18:23:51 <btcex> and bitcoin client also not translated to japanise
1771 2010-12-02 18:25:21 <Kiba> So Satoshi is not Japanese?
1772 2010-12-02 18:26:19 <Kiba> nak eh da!
1773 2010-12-02 18:26:26 <Kiba> the mystery deeeeeepen!
1774 2010-12-02 18:26:31 <btcex> Kiba: And not one Japanese visitor on our site!
1775 2010-12-02 18:26:56 <Kiba> we got people visiting from Japan but they're European or American....
1776 2010-12-02 18:28:13 <btcex> Japan is very important, it is one of the leading economic powers.
1777 2010-12-02 18:29:58 acous has joined
1778 2010-12-02 18:32:27 tcatm has quit (Changing host)
1779 2010-12-02 18:32:27 tcatm has joined
1780 2010-12-02 18:35:25 <Kiba> btcex: well, it's all over the western world...
1781 2010-12-02 18:35:36 <Kiba> the eastern sphere isn't much affected
1782 2010-12-02 18:37:08 <Kiba> http://www.mises.jp/
1783 2010-12-02 18:44:59 <necrodearia> Satoshi must at least have Japanese parents.  His last name is of Japanese descent at the very least.
1784 2010-12-02 18:46:23 <btcex> its need to translate the site and client too
1785 2010-12-02 18:47:03 <btcex> why knows sites, forums etc where I can find japaneese linuxoids?
1786 2010-12-02 18:47:42 <btcex> google! :)
1787 2010-12-02 18:48:14 <necrodearia> btcex: IRCHighWay: #japanese
1788 2010-12-02 18:48:33 <necrodearia> or Rizon network
1789 2010-12-02 18:48:40 <btcex> no, IRC is not for me, sorry. I am too old for it :)
1790 2010-12-02 18:48:51 <necrodearia> btcex, btw, this is irc ^_^
1791 2010-12-02 18:49:10 <btcex> I was even surprised that it still works
1792 2010-12-02 18:49:27 <necrodearia> Surprised that "irc" still works?
1793 2010-12-02 18:50:08 <btcex> necrodearia: yes
1794 2010-12-02 18:50:34 <TheAncientGoat> btcex: That's like saying "I'm suprised that http still works"
1795 2010-12-02 18:50:42 <necrodearia> Us IRC enthusiasts have been keeping IRC in excellent condition.  In the case of a catastrophe or devastating attack, we are strong to protect and repair it as necessary.
1796 2010-12-02 18:51:00 <necrodearia> TheAncientGoat, Us http enthusiasts have been keeping http in excellent condition.  In the case of a catastrophe or devastating attack, we are strong to protect and repair it as necessary.
1797 2010-12-02 18:51:08 <btcex> for serious cases it is inconvenient it seems to me, and 'entertainment have moved to facebook
1798 2010-12-02 18:51:33 <TheAncientGoat> Which is why IRC is still here for the serious stuff ;)
1799 2010-12-02 18:51:46 <necrodearia> btw, bitcoin is serious!
1800 2010-12-02 18:51:55 <btcex> TheAncientGoat: Because you are here. I'd prefer a mailing list.
1801 2010-12-02 18:52:05 <[Noodles]> has been >5years since i'v been on irc last time, then bitcoin.org went offline and here i am :/
1802 2010-12-02 18:52:18 <TheAncientGoat> Eek, mailing lists
1803 2010-12-02 18:52:19 <btcex> bitcoin is serios business on the interwebz!
1804 2010-12-02 18:52:20 <btcex> L)
1805 2010-12-02 18:52:39 <necrodearia> http://is.gd/i6zIp
1806 2010-12-02 18:53:02 <donpdonp> they're built with videocards and traded on irc channels. its for realz! :)
1807 2010-12-02 18:56:01 <btcex> can anyone help me with searching of popular opensource site of japan?
1808 2010-12-02 18:56:09 <btcex> i am do not see it
1809 2010-12-02 18:56:31 <btcex> only sakura, traveling, hieroglyphs and anime
1810 2010-12-02 18:56:49 <necrodearia> btcex, What is the site?
1811 2010-12-02 18:56:50 <btcex> LUGs are empty
1812 2010-12-02 18:57:15 <btcex> ne0futur: any popular site of open source community etc
1813 2010-12-02 18:57:19 <necrodearia> mm, I see
1814 2010-12-02 18:57:39 <nanotube> btcex: maybe #ubuntu-ja ? :)
1815 2010-12-02 18:57:52 <nanotube> or jp
1816 2010-12-02 18:57:57 <btcex> nameless|: irc is not for me, sorry
1817 2010-12-02 18:57:59 <nanotube> [Noodles]: well, we're glad to have you :)
1818 2010-12-02 18:58:46 * [Noodles] giggles: cuz you dont know me yet
1819 2010-12-02 18:58:52 <necrodearia> btcex: wich kind of JP source? for studying or what?
1820 2010-12-02 18:59:17 <btcex> necrodearia: for bitcoin adv
1821 2010-12-02 18:59:22 <necrodearia> adventure?
1822 2010-12-02 18:59:26 <btcex> adv...
1823 2010-12-02 18:59:29 <necrodearia> adverb?
1824 2010-12-02 18:59:30 <btcex> advertise
1825 2010-12-02 18:59:31 <necrodearia> ah
1826 2010-12-02 18:59:41 <nanotube> [Noodles]: haha well, nothing has changed since 5 years ago - we still have kicks and bans and all that :D
1827 2010-12-02 18:59:53 <nanotube> adverb!
1828 2010-12-02 19:00:30 <btcex> nanotube: Wow! And I really thought that all ops moved to moderate Wikipedia
1829 2010-12-02 19:00:43 <nanotube> btcex: only the shitty ones :P
1830 2010-12-02 19:01:22 <btcex> oops, not advertise, advert
1831 2010-12-02 19:01:26 <btcex> I mean advert
1832 2010-12-02 19:01:30 <nanotube> but yea, speaking of ops... it appears we have none on channel. ...
1833 2010-12-02 19:02:22 larsig_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1834 2010-12-02 19:02:41 <necrodearia> btcex, The best I can suggest is possibly establishing a mixi account.
1835 2010-12-02 19:02:57 <btcex> what is mixi?
1836 2010-12-02 19:02:59 <soultcer> Oh hi chronomex btw :D
1837 2010-12-02 19:03:01 <necrodearia> I believe you need a Japanese based phone number or email address to create an account though
1838 2010-12-02 19:03:06 <necrodearia> btcex http://mixi.jp
1839 2010-12-02 19:03:19 <necrodearia> It is a social networking site very popular in Japan
1840 2010-12-02 19:03:23 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|btcex: what?
1841 2010-12-02 19:03:26 <necrodearia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixi
1842 2010-12-02 19:03:41 <nanotube> nameless|: i think that was a mis-tabcomplete directed at me. :)
1843 2010-12-02 19:03:45 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|ahh
1844 2010-12-02 19:03:52 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|oh hey
1845 2010-12-02 19:03:55 <nanotube> nameless|: but speaking of which... no ops. get some ops.
1846 2010-12-02 19:03:56 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|My op disappeared
1847 2010-12-02 19:04:08 <nanotube> heh yea. i stole it!! O_O
1848 2010-12-02 19:04:14 <necrodearia> oooh, this channel has been pwn3d? ^_^
1849 2010-12-02 19:04:19 <soultcer> huh?
1850 2010-12-02 19:04:29 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|soultcer: mind reoping me? I guess I lot it in a split
1851 2010-12-02 19:04:39 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|thanks
1852 2010-12-02 19:04:46 <nanotube> soultcer: ah you got ops since i last looked :)
1853 2010-12-02 19:04:54 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|So
1854 2010-12-02 19:04:55 <nanotube> good work :)
1855 2010-12-02 19:05:00 <btcex> necrodearia: There on the site are the girls with cups. Girls and a cup. And nothing more.
1856 2010-12-02 19:05:06 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Why don't we have chanserv keeping track of ops?
1857 2010-12-02 19:05:08 <btcex> it is OSS community site?
1858 2010-12-02 19:05:20 <soultcer> nameless|: Chanserv gave me +o
1859 2010-12-02 19:05:21 <nanotube> nameless|: ask soultcer he seems to be buddies with chanserv :)
1860 2010-12-02 19:05:49 <soultcer> But you have to ask sirius-m for configuring chanserv, I don't think I have the permission to
1861 2010-12-02 19:05:54 <necrodearia> btcex, hmm?
1862 2010-12-02 19:06:34 <btcex> necrodearia: And I understood. It is a social network
1863 2010-12-02 19:06:43 <nanotube> nameless|: soultcer btw, while you are here... bitcoin.org is no longer down. :P
1864 2010-12-02 19:06:47 <nanotube> topic update
1865 2010-12-02 19:06:53 <btcex> Why do I come across things that I hate?
1866 2010-12-02 19:07:08 <btcex> irc, facebooks..
1867 2010-12-02 19:07:27 <necrodearia> btcex, http://i51.tinypic.com/330g1h0.png
1868 2010-12-02 19:07:28 <nanotube> \o/ :)
1869 2010-12-02 19:08:43 <btcex> necrodearia: SNS! SNS is a japanese SMS?
1870 2010-12-02 19:09:03 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1871 2010-12-02 19:09:14 <necrodearia> btcex, I guess so, at least as much as SNR is Saturday Night Rive
1872 2010-12-02 19:09:29 <nanotube> necrodearia: haha
1873 2010-12-02 19:13:46 <albatross> anyone know what checks are done on the timestamp once a block is received? the only think i see that it checks is whether it's older than the previous accepted block
1874 2010-12-02 19:14:28 <btcex> albatross: probably it also checks local clocks
1875 2010-12-02 19:14:52 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
1876 2010-12-02 19:14:56 <nanotube> albatross: i'm pretty sure that it's actually possible for block N to be timestamped earlier than block N-1. iirc it's happened
1877 2010-12-02 19:14:59 <btcex> I seen message on forum about 'bug' with invalid clock settings
1878 2010-12-02 19:15:01 <ArtForz> yep
1879 2010-12-02 19:15:16 <ArtForz> timestam,p has to be > median of prev 11 blocks
1880 2010-12-02 19:15:19 <nanotube> but i'm not sure what the actual time check algorithms are.
1881 2010-12-02 19:15:26 <nanotube> ArtForz: ah nice
1882 2010-12-02 19:15:30 <ArtForz> timestamp has to be < current network-adjusted time + 2h
1883 2010-12-02 19:15:45 <nanotube> as usual, ArtForz comes through with actual data. :)
1884 2010-12-02 19:16:00 <nanotube> what's 'network-adjusted-time' ?
1885 2010-12-02 19:16:09 <nanotube> how is that measured
1886 2010-12-02 19:16:26 <ArtForz> client uses median of peers time to add an offset to local time
1887 2010-12-02 19:16:42 <nanotube> ah so peers communicate local time between each other?
1888 2010-12-02 19:16:44 <nanotube> cool
1889 2010-12-02 19:16:45 <ArtForz> yep
1890 2010-12-02 19:17:24 <ArtForz> the "now" timestamp exchange happens in the version message
1891 2010-12-02 19:20:56 duck1123_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1892 2010-12-02 19:21:15 <btcex> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?board=12.0 I wrote message about Japanese translation
1893 2010-12-02 19:22:53 <albatross> hmmm...i'm not understanding. nanotube has 0900, artforz 0400, btcex 2300. I have 1500. so, timestamp would have less than nanotube time + 2, which would be 1100. My time is 1500. I can never produce a timestamp earlier than 1100. I totally missed something here... :(
1894 2010-12-02 19:23:23 <ArtForz> "local time" is in UTC
1895 2010-12-02 19:23:43 <btcex> albatross: btcex ? you checked btcex.com's daemon ?
1896 2010-12-02 19:23:46 <ArtForz> if a peer is off more than 2 hours, it's ignored for the time sync
1897 2010-12-02 19:23:50 <albatross> so then it's not local time :)
1898 2010-12-02 19:24:09 <ArtForz> well... it's machine-local UTC
1899 2010-12-02 19:24:27 <albatross> exactly...ok, that makes sense.
1900 2010-12-02 19:24:46 altamic has joined
1901 2010-12-02 19:25:02 <albatross> thanks guys!
1902 2010-12-02 19:25:41 <ArtForz> I think the whole "network time offset" thing is mainly so nodes that don't run ntpd still have decently accurate time for generating/checking block timestamps
1903 2010-12-02 19:26:50 <Diablo-D3> there sohuld be no computers not using ntpd
1904 2010-12-02 19:27:03 <ArtForz> yep
1905 2010-12-02 19:27:04 <Diablo-D3> I think win7 even turns their equiv of ntpd on by default
1906 2010-12-02 19:27:16 <albatross> winxp had it too
1907 2010-12-02 19:27:28 <Diablo-D3> wtf is the Hogofwar?
1908 2010-12-02 19:27:31 <ArtForz> winxp had it off by default
1909 2010-12-02 19:27:35 <Diablo-D3> albatross: not on by default though
1910 2010-12-02 19:27:39 duck1123_ has joined
1911 2010-12-02 19:27:51 <Diablo-D3> and Im not sure if 7 does, I just vaguely rememeber someone saying this
1912 2010-12-02 19:28:03 <ArtForz> I was considering adding sntp as yet another time source to bitcoin
1913 2010-12-02 19:28:20 fedorared has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1914 2010-12-02 19:29:44 <ArtForz> sntp is pretty simple
1915 2010-12-02 19:31:39 <Hogofwar> Hey
1916 2010-12-02 19:32:00 <Hogofwar> Still haven't got java post working
1917 2010-12-02 19:32:13 <ArtForz> errr... that was redundant, it's called Simple Network Time Protocol
1918 2010-12-02 19:32:29 <Hogofwar> ???
1919 2010-12-02 19:32:41 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: lol
1920 2010-12-02 19:32:44 <Diablo-D3> Hogofwar: ?
1921 2010-12-02 19:33:10 <btcex> ArtForz: this do not coresponds to KISS principle
1922 2010-12-02 19:33:22 <ArtForz> huh?
1923 2010-12-02 19:33:35 <btcex> (imho)
1924 2010-12-02 19:34:06 <ArtForz> so it's better to trust your peer nodes to have accurate time than peers+ntp servers?
1925 2010-12-02 19:34:12 <btcex> bitcoin will be dependent on time servers
1926 2010-12-02 19:34:29 <btcex> ArtForz: I have ~8 peers
1927 2010-12-02 19:34:39 <btcex> all in other networks
1928 2010-12-02 19:34:58 <Diablo-D3> no
1929 2010-12-02 19:35:00 <Diablo-D3> THE INTERNET
1930 2010-12-02 19:35:06 <Diablo-D3> is dependent on accurate time
1931 2010-12-02 19:35:08 <Diablo-D3> period
1932 2010-12-02 19:35:34 <Diablo-D3> even some basic web/http usage breaks
1933 2010-12-02 19:36:26 <btcex> What happens if the internet someone set wrong time? Or even set wrong time?
1934 2010-12-02 19:36:56 <btcex> *Or all users set wrong time?
1935 2010-12-02 19:37:04 <btcex> <s>even</s>
1936 2010-12-02 19:37:07 xelister has joined
1937 2010-12-02 19:37:19 <ArtForz> right now? it would skew what bitcoin thinks is "network time"
1938 2010-12-02 19:37:53 fedorared has joined
1939 2010-12-02 19:38:01 <btcex> One shocked it's not scary. Any other problems will be?
1940 2010-12-02 19:39:03 <Kiba> so..this whole thing about BitDNS, is somebody going to implement it or it's just going to be another interesting idea
1941 2010-12-02 19:39:30 <btcex> ArtForz: I am about internet, not about bitcoin p2p network
1942 2010-12-02 19:40:23 * btcex found bug through which state can control bitcoin! :)
1943 2010-12-02 19:41:29 <ArtForz> well, there are some nodes that don't give a rats ass about what other nodes say their UTC time is
1944 2010-12-02 19:41:41 <btcex> GPS is the most common source of accurate time to time servers.
1945 2010-12-02 19:41:42 <Diablo-D3> speaking of DNS
1946 2010-12-02 19:41:51 <Diablo-D3> anyone see that new p2p dns?
1947 2010-12-02 19:42:01 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1948 2010-12-02 19:42:03 <btcex> By playing with GPS state can broke bitcoin p2p network! :)
1949 2010-12-02 19:42:19 <brocktice> Kiba: don't boast so much about running outside rain or shine compared to me
1950 2010-12-02 19:42:28 <brocktice> yesterday the high temp here was around 10F
1951 2010-12-02 19:42:37 <xelister> Kiba: but how would be such dns used technically.. ok I own 'sex' in the new DNS system, what now, where I connect? with firefox?  to like,  sex.bitcoin-domains.org  and so on?
1952 2010-12-02 19:42:37 <btcex> Diablo-D3: link?
1953 2010-12-02 19:42:38 <brocktice> and there's snow and ice all over the place, makes it pretty hard to run outside
1954 2010-12-02 19:42:43 <Diablo-D3> btcex: slashdot
1955 2010-12-02 19:42:59 <brocktice> Kiba: people do it but they're crazy
1956 2010-12-02 19:43:11 <ArtForz> btw, not even ntp trusts a GPS PPS 100%
1957 2010-12-02 19:43:14 <btcex> I seen slashdot 2-3 times and do not understand at all :)
1958 2010-12-02 19:44:33 <btcex> ArtForz: an empirical: GPS is the easiest way to get the accurate time
1959 2010-12-02 19:44:43 <Diablo-D3> there are no gps shit on ntp, right?
1960 2010-12-02 19:44:50 <Diablo-D3> btcex: slashdot links to stories.
1961 2010-12-02 19:44:51 <btcex> mazers and etc has to big cost
1962 2010-12-02 19:44:59 <ArtForz> yep, but GPS isn't 100% available
1963 2010-12-02 19:46:01 <btcex> ArtForz: You are from Franz Josef Land? :)
1964 2010-12-02 19:46:04 <ArtForz> yep
1965 2010-12-02 19:46:16 <btcex> ArtForz: serious?
1966 2010-12-02 19:46:23 <ArtForz> yeah :P
1967 2010-12-02 19:46:33 <btcex> You kidding me
1968 2010-12-02 19:46:47 <Kiba> sl
1969 2010-12-02 19:46:49 <Kiba> so...
1970 2010-12-02 19:46:54 <ArtForz> yep :P
1971 2010-12-02 19:46:56 <ArtForz> j/k
1972 2010-12-02 19:46:58 <Kiba> what do I need to know in order to code a BitDNS system?
1973 2010-12-02 19:47:06 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: dont
1974 2010-12-02 19:47:10 <Diablo-D3> help the pirate bay guys
1975 2010-12-02 19:47:23 <btcex> I know working p2p dns service - .onion
1976 2010-12-02 19:47:27 <Kiba> I still don't know shit about...DNS
1977 2010-12-02 19:47:30 <Diablo-D3> btcex: no itsnot
1978 2010-12-02 19:47:33 <Diablo-D3> thats not dns
1979 2010-12-02 19:47:51 <Kiba> just like I don't know shit about cryptography
1980 2010-12-02 19:47:53 <btcex> hm... ok
1981 2010-12-02 19:47:58 <Diablo-D3> thats a certain encrypted method Tor provides
1982 2010-12-02 19:48:01 <Diablo-D3> its ONLY useful through Tor
1983 2010-12-02 19:48:28 <Kiba> have the piratebay guys figured out how p2p domain registration would work?
1984 2010-12-02 19:48:37 <Diablo-D3> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/11/fed-up-with-icann-pirate-bay-cofounder-floats-p2p-dns-system.ars
1985 2010-12-02 19:48:38 <btcex> I like a p2p dns idea
1986 2010-12-02 19:48:40 <Diablo-D3> there found it
1987 2010-12-02 19:49:02 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: they're working on it
1988 2010-12-02 19:50:16 <Diablo-D3> so
1989 2010-12-02 19:50:20 <Diablo-D3> if you're going to help
1990 2010-12-02 19:50:22 <Diablo-D3> help those guys
1991 2010-12-02 19:50:26 <AAA_awright> Unfortunately it's really hard to engineer
1992 2010-12-02 19:50:32 <Diablo-D3> they have media exposure, you guys dont.
1993 2010-12-02 19:50:38 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: no
1994 2010-12-02 19:50:40 <Diablo-D3> we COULD
1995 2010-12-02 19:50:42 <Diablo-D3> dun dun dunnnn
1996 2010-12-02 19:50:47 <Diablo-D3> use a proof of work chain that we all agree on
1997 2010-12-02 19:50:52 <Diablo-D3> SOUNDS FAMILIAR DONT IT
1998 2010-12-02 19:50:58 <AAA_awright> You have to determine the allocative mechanism
1999 2010-12-02 19:50:59 <donpdonp> Diablo-D3: har my thoughts exactly
2000 2010-12-02 19:51:09 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: send a request out.
2001 2010-12-02 19:51:11 <necrodearia> AAA_awright, http://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Mechanical-Engineer
2002 2010-12-02 19:51:20 <AAA_awright> If there's no market for domain names it's going to fail
2003 2010-12-02 19:51:23 <AAA_awright> Period
2004 2010-12-02 19:51:43 <AAA_awright> And the natural status of things is domain names are free, I mean, they really are
2005 2010-12-02 19:51:51 <AAA_awright> Or just way too cheap to mention
2006 2010-12-02 19:53:51 <btcex> strange what government don't understand what pressure to infrastructure pushes to the technical problem-solving
2007 2010-12-02 19:54:01 <AAA_awright> Hahah
2008 2010-12-02 19:54:06 <Diablo-D3> btcex: theres a better way of saying that
2009 2010-12-02 19:54:18 <Diablo-D3> "the internet routes around all problems. _ALL_ problems."
2010 2010-12-02 19:54:28 <AAA_awright> Kiba: Even better http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1884.0
2011 2010-12-02 19:57:17 <necrodearia> We could help them and announce ourselves as from the bitcoin community. ^_^  That would help us to establish some exposure too.
2012 2010-12-02 19:57:32 <necrodearia> Maybe prefix our nicks with bitcoin_ and join an irc channel that development community is in. ^__^
2013 2010-12-02 19:58:26 <necrodearia> efnet / #thepiratebay.org I believe
2014 2010-12-02 19:59:14 <AAA_awright> Could DNS be engineered on top of the paytxfee option as an auction mechanism?
2015 2010-12-02 19:59:15 <necrodearia> mm, it appears efnet max nickname length is 9, so I'm bitcoin_n ^_^
2016 2010-12-02 19:59:41 <btcex> By the way, maybe it's time to abandon the domain names entirely.
2017 2010-12-02 19:59:52 <necrodearia> in a sense I agree.
2018 2010-12-02 20:00:01 <necrodearia> there should be no limit
2019 2010-12-02 20:00:05 <btcex> Just Implement p2p 'dns' on the hashes like .onion
2020 2010-12-02 20:00:19 <AAA_awright> btcex: IP addresses http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2035.0
2021 2010-12-02 20:00:25 <necrodearia> e.g. name of "redhat" should be good enough to access red hat website.
2022 2010-12-02 20:00:31 <AAA_awright> Identify websites by their private key, remove SSL entirely
2023 2010-12-02 20:00:36 <necrodearia> pttp://redhat/
2024 2010-12-02 20:00:43 <AAA_awright> necrodearia: Someone still has to resolve it
2025 2010-12-02 20:00:48 <necrodearia> p2p resolve?
2026 2010-12-02 20:00:51 <AAA_awright> Also, the protocol isn't changing so it's still http
2027 2010-12-02 20:00:57 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2028 2010-12-02 20:01:00 <necrodearia> hmm, true
2029 2010-12-02 20:01:25 <btcex> In true p2p dns it will be problem with squatters
2030 2010-12-02 20:01:47 <btcex> its unsolvable problem
2031 2010-12-02 20:01:49 <necrodearia> But what about preserving current dns system and providing opportunity for additionally accessing p2p dns system?  Would it be beneficial to use another protocol,?
2032 2010-12-02 20:02:11 <necrodearia> btcex, Not necessarily.  We already have squatters.
2033 2010-12-02 20:02:13 <AAA_awright> It needs to be made expensive
2034 2010-12-02 20:02:19 <btcex> but if we remember why domain names were invented
2035 2010-12-02 20:02:20 <AAA_awright> Domain names are expensive
2036 2010-12-02 20:02:24 <AAA_awright> They have a cost
2037 2010-12-02 20:02:29 <necrodearia> In the current system the central server has control of distributing domain names as it sees fit.
2038 2010-12-02 20:02:37 <AAA_awright> They are limited resources so they _have_ to have a cost
2039 2010-12-02 20:02:57 <btcex> necrodearia: if domains will be free (by cost) squotters captures all domains at all, by wordlists
2040 2010-12-02 20:03:03 <necrodearia> How about integrating bitcoin into the p2p dns system so as to handle the cost portion?
2041 2010-12-02 20:03:22 <necrodearia> I will suggest it in the #thepiratebay.org chan
2042 2010-12-02 20:03:22 <btcex> but, we do not need real Domain Names
2043 2010-12-02 20:03:40 <AAA_awright> btcex: Also, host-based hosting
2044 2010-12-02 20:03:46 <AAA_awright> Virtual hosts
2045 2010-12-02 20:03:46 <btcex> no no
2046 2010-12-02 20:03:54 <AAA_awright> How do you re-engineer that?
2047 2010-12-02 20:04:22 <btcex> Domains were necessary for people to not remember the address.
2048 2010-12-02 20:04:38 <btcex> And they were be implemented in 1987
2049 2010-12-02 20:04:57 <btcex> ie, many years after internet creation
2050 2010-12-02 20:04:58 <AAA_awright> Alright but how do you move people away from virtual hosts
2051 2010-12-02 20:05:11 <AAA_awright> Which depends on the DNS system
2052 2010-12-02 20:05:14 <btcex> AAA_awright: forgot about virtual hosts:)
2053 2010-12-02 20:05:27 <necrodearia> Feel free to come to efnet / #thepiratebay.org if you'd like to join discussion about it.
2054 2010-12-02 20:05:45 <AAA_awright> necrodearia: Post a link to http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2035.0 for me
2055 2010-12-02 20:05:53 <necrodearia> it's an irc channel
2056 2010-12-02 20:05:55 <AAA_awright> er
2057 2010-12-02 20:05:56 <AAA_awright> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1884.0
2058 2010-12-02 20:05:58 <btcex> Now people can not remember the address and links in the browser, text file or advert with QR code
2059 2010-12-02 20:06:10 Palomides has joined
2060 2010-12-02 20:06:10 <btcex> oops, sorry, error in translation
2061 2010-12-02 20:06:21 <AAA_awright> If they want to come over to Freenode I'll join then
2062 2010-12-02 20:06:22 <btcex> Now people can  remember the address and links in the browser, text file or advert with QR code
2063 2010-12-02 20:06:30 <AAA_awright> necrodearia: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1884.0
2064 2010-12-02 20:06:56 <btcex> and we can make the names as in .onion
2065 2010-12-02 20:07:10 <necrodearia> I posted link to the chan
2066 2010-12-02 20:07:18 <AAA_awright> Woo
2067 2010-12-02 20:07:21 <necrodearia> ^_^
2068 2010-12-02 20:07:22 <btcex> these addresses can not be taken and pointless to hold by squatters
2069 2010-12-02 20:07:43 <necrodearia> heh, at first I was confused.  I thought you wanted mt to reply to the thread and post a link.
2070 2010-12-02 20:07:47 <btcex> I have finished, ask for questions:)
2071 2010-12-02 20:07:49 <necrodearia> After a while I realized your intention.
2072 2010-12-02 20:08:14 RazielZ has quit ()
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2074 2010-12-02 20:10:05 <brocktice> Is there already a virtual country or society?
2075 2010-12-02 20:10:21 <brocktice> In the sense that one could be a citizen?
2076 2010-12-02 20:10:36 <brocktice> Some sort of tribe maybe
2077 2010-12-02 20:10:50 <[Noodles]> wirtland
2078 2010-12-02 20:11:04 <brocktice> oho
2079 2010-12-02 20:11:25 <necrodearia> brocktice, a p2p "second life"-clone maybe?
2080 2010-12-02 20:11:38 <brocktice> necrodearia: No I mean like, for real.
2081 2010-12-02 20:11:41 <brocktice> Not with avatars.
2082 2010-12-02 20:11:55 <brocktice> Like I have a US SSN and passport etc.
2083 2010-12-02 20:11:56 <necrodearia> In what way would a country be virtual without avatars?
2084 2010-12-02 20:12:07 <brocktice> An un-landed country if you will.
2085 2010-12-02 20:12:09 <necrodearia> even in a nongui sense
2086 2010-12-02 20:12:11 <brocktice> Wirtland sounds like it
2087 2010-12-02 20:12:16 <necrodearia> hmm
2088 2010-12-02 20:12:41 <brocktice> I'll have to investigate this
2089 2010-12-02 20:12:44 <necrodearia> Although second life doesn't have ssn, passport, etc, there is potential, but I doubt such potential would be pursued or established.
2090 2010-12-02 20:12:45 <brocktice> they might be interested in bitcoin
2091 2010-12-02 20:13:03 <brocktice> I mean, all that 3D stuff is excess for this concept.
2092 2010-12-02 20:13:04 <necrodearia> It would be interesting precedent
2093 2010-12-02 20:13:20 <brocktice> I mentioned this here before, I'm thinking like Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong.
2094 2010-12-02 20:13:23 <necrodearia> true, however, the entertainment factor does add to interest.
2095 2010-12-02 20:13:25 <[Noodles]> we'v got a wirtland-citizen on the forums
2096 2010-12-02 20:13:36 <[Noodles]> that's where i first heard about it
2097 2010-12-02 20:13:37 <brocktice> http://everything2.com/title/Mr.+Lee%2527s+Greater+Hong+Kong
2098 2010-12-02 20:13:44 <brocktice> Mike whatsizface?
2099 2010-12-02 20:13:51 <brocktice> golugski or something?
2100 2010-12-02 20:14:17 <[Noodles]> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1464.0
2101 2010-12-02 20:14:28 <brocktice> oh
2102 2010-12-02 20:14:29 <brocktice> excellent
2103 2010-12-02 20:14:36 <brocktice> great minds :)
2104 2010-12-02 20:15:28 <necrodearia> heh, witizens
2105 2010-12-02 20:15:39 <necrodearia> wourists
2106 2010-12-02 20:16:08 <brocktice> there are a lot of synergistic things going on right now
2107 2010-12-02 20:16:11 <brocktice> what with wikileaks
2108 2010-12-02 20:16:13 <brocktice> bitcoin
2109 2010-12-02 20:16:14 <brocktice> wirtland
2110 2010-12-02 20:17:05 <necrodearia> It will be exciting when they integrate with each other and are sustainable without other alternatives.
2111 2010-12-02 20:19:22 <necrodearia> Perhaps someone can communicate to wirtland and offer some kind of integration opportunity?
2112 2010-12-02 20:20:21 <necrodearia> info@wirtland.com
2113 2010-12-02 20:20:43 <brocktice> I'm going to apply for citizenship I think.
2114 2010-12-02 20:20:57 <brocktice> Then I will also be able to work it from both sides :)
2115 2010-12-02 20:21:12 <brocktice> Excuse me, Witizenship
2116 2010-12-02 20:21:19 <necrodearia> ^_^
2117 2010-12-02 20:21:44 <necrodearia> I sent email suggesting Bitcoin.  Maybe others can also send email to make it seem more important, noticeable.
2118 2010-12-02 20:21:45 Kiba` has joined
2119 2010-12-02 20:24:05 <necrodearia> Currently their currency is Multi currency, ICU
2120 2010-12-02 20:24:29 <necrodearia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Clearing_Union
2121 2010-12-02 20:24:47 <necrodearia> Perhaps ", Bitcoin" could be appended to the list at a later time.
2122 2010-12-02 20:25:47 <necrodearia> Perhaps official language can eventually be established as Winary
2123 2010-12-02 20:25:56 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2124 2010-12-02 20:25:59 <brocktice> heh
2125 2010-12-02 20:26:20 <necrodearia> or Wommon Wongue
2126 2010-12-02 20:27:14 <necrodearia> I wonder who is the elected Wovernor
2127 2010-12-02 20:27:59 <[Noodles]> as long as they dont make it Witcoins, i'm fine with it
2128 2010-12-02 20:28:51 <necrodearia> oooh
2129 2010-12-02 20:28:54 <necrodearia> I was in the wrong chan!
2130 2010-12-02 20:29:01 <necrodearia> #dns-p2p of efnet has 3x as many as #thepiratebay.org
2131 2010-12-02 20:29:11 <necrodearia> I'll repost everything there and maybe get more feedback.
2132 2010-12-02 20:29:25 <Palomides> is it just me or is wirtland's website down?
2133 2010-12-02 20:29:28 <necrodearia> Additionally, if anyone is interested in participating in the discussion that I am about to initiate, feel free to come join me?
2134 2010-12-02 20:29:34 <necrodearia> Palomides, It's just you.
2135 2010-12-02 20:29:38 <brocktice> Palomides: they seem to have image hosting problems?
2136 2010-12-02 20:29:44 <brocktice> Palomides: or NoScript is screwing things up
2137 2010-12-02 20:29:47 <brocktice> I should try Chrome
2138 2010-12-02 20:29:49 <necrodearia> Palomides, http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/wirtland.com\
2139 2010-12-02 20:30:14 <Palomides> well it wasn't working a minute ago >_>
2140 2010-12-02 20:33:36 alvarezp has joined
2141 2010-12-02 20:36:02 opensanta has joined
2142 2010-12-02 20:36:50 davout has joined
2143 2010-12-02 20:39:11 <necrodearia> I invited folks at #dns-p2p to come here to learn/understand bitcoin technicalities better.  Some of 'em are here now.
2144 2010-12-02 20:39:30 <[Noodles]> welcome to the club ^.^
2145 2010-12-02 20:40:36 T_X has joined
2146 2010-12-02 20:44:03 redengin has joined
2147 2010-12-02 20:45:19 <necrodearia> As Diablo-D3 linked previously regarding TPB's efforts to establish p2p dns system ( http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/11/fed-up-with-icann-pirate-bay-cofounder-floats-p2p-dns-system.ars ), kiba and I have mentioned our project to their community, however, I agree with them in that we are basically spamvertising about our project.
2148 2010-12-02 20:46:00 <necrodearia> So, instead, if anyone (with bitcoin technical expertise) is interested in joining efnet / #dns-p2p to contribute towards developments, do so. ^_^
2149 2010-12-02 20:46:47 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2150 2010-12-02 20:48:03 altamic has joined
2151 2010-12-02 20:48:43 <[Noodles]> i'm afraid i can't add anything uselful at all, but i'll gladly use it when its done ^.^
2152 2010-12-02 20:49:52 <necrodearia> In regards to dns-p2p (and in consideration of bitcoin), what can be used for initial registration of a domain name?
2153 2010-12-02 20:50:47 <necrodearia> I am trying to consider similarities in potential developments for dns-p2p and existing developments of bitcoin possibly to understand if techniques used in bitcoin can be of use for dns-p2.
2154 2010-12-02 20:51:38 <necrodearia> When a block is generated, all nodes in the p2p network become aware of the block being generated and have stored in database that information.
2155 2010-12-02 20:51:53 <necrodearia> Is it safe to conclude that block generation is comparable to "domain name registration?"\
2156 2010-12-02 20:52:18 <[Noodles]> that's what i guess
2157 2010-12-02 20:52:49 <necrodearia> e.g. a domain name is registered and generates a hash to associate with the registration information and all nodes are distributed the data.
2158 2010-12-02 20:52:52 <Kiba`> yeah...each block would contain 50 domain name to be named
2159 2010-12-02 20:52:57 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2160 2010-12-02 20:53:16 <Kiba`> I don't think they're going to implement it.  They're going to do it the wrong way.
2161 2010-12-02 20:53:37 T_X has joined
2162 2010-12-02 20:53:37 <necrodearia> sublime?
2163 2010-12-02 20:54:03 <Kiba`> but if they succeeded, I will use it
2164 2010-12-02 20:54:22 <gavinandresen> The bitcoin block chain is really just a secure p2p timestamping service-- a way for everybody to agree "Yep, this here doo-hickey was done first."
2165 2010-12-02 20:56:33 <necrodearia> hmm
2166 2010-12-02 20:57:40 <necrodearia> http://dot-p2p.org
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2169 2010-12-02 21:06:21 <Hogofwar> Can someone explain how the p2p dns owuld work?
2170 2010-12-02 21:06:33 <Hogofwar> Would you run a client tahtc onnects to other clinets?
2171 2010-12-02 21:06:38 <Hogofwar> *clients
2172 2010-12-02 21:06:43 <Hogofwar> (which is p2p yeah)
2173 2010-12-02 21:06:49 <gavinandresen> So... thinking out loud...  I wanna resolve  foo.p2p .   I do a kademelia lookup (hand wave, hand wave...) and get N responses for the IP address of foo.p2p.  I think.
2174 2010-12-02 21:07:08 <gavinandresen> Then I gotta figure out which one is the "real" one.  I think.
2175 2010-12-02 21:07:16 <Hogofwar> Thank you gavinandreson for the postbin link :P
2176 2010-12-02 21:08:53 <gavinandresen> So a bitcoin-like tech would help if I decide that the 'real' one is the one with the earliest timestamp.
2177 2010-12-02 21:10:41 rulk has joined
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2179 2010-12-02 21:12:30 sgornick has joined
2180 2010-12-02 21:15:01 <rulk> Hi I'v just found out about bitcoins. I have a small mmo game project and I would like trying to integrate bitcoins as payment system. Can I do that? Where do i begin?
2181 2010-12-02 21:16:04 <wumpus> learning the json api of the bitcoin client would be a good start
2182 2010-12-02 21:17:29 <Kiba`> rulk: so you just find out? Why not play with it, read about it, and understand it some more first?
2183 2010-12-02 21:17:54 <gavinandresen> Kiba` : I think that's what rulk is asking... how to start....
2184 2010-12-02 21:18:32 <gavinandresen> rulk:  what platform is your mmo?  linux?  windows?  flash?
2185 2010-12-02 21:18:34 <wumpus> and don't forget bitcoin has a testnet, which makes it easier to test without transfering real coins
2186 2010-12-02 21:20:01 <Hogofwar> rulk try mybitcoin - https://www.mybitcoin.com/
2187 2010-12-02 21:20:09 <Hogofwar> It includes a payment system thing
2188 2010-12-02 21:20:27 <Hogofwar> forgot about the testnet
2189 2010-12-02 21:20:29 <Hogofwar> Um
2190 2010-12-02 21:20:36 <Hogofwar> How do i enamble the testnet again?
2191 2010-12-02 21:20:37 <rulk> moo is for linux and windows(there is going to be mac release) but it still mostly in development stage
2192 2010-12-02 21:21:08 <gavinandresen> Hogofwar:  run bitcoin or bitcoind with the -testnet switch
2193 2010-12-02 21:21:20 <gavinandresen> Hogofwar: (or put testnet=1 in your bitcoin.conf)
2194 2010-12-02 21:22:07 <rulk> https://www.mybitcoin.com/ is what i was looking for )
2195 2010-12-02 21:22:17 <gavinandresen> rulk:  I'd get bitcoind, the command-line version of bitcoin, running on linux.  Run it on the -testnet, get coins from the TEST faucet ( https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/TEST) and play around.
2196 2010-12-02 21:22:18 <Hogofwar> Glad i could help
2197 2010-12-02 21:23:20 <gavinandresen> rulk:  useful wiki pages:  http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=headless_client    and   http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api
2198 2010-12-02 21:25:08 <necrodearia> woo, four instances of "bitcoin" in wiki at http://dot-p2p.org
2199 2010-12-02 21:25:12 <rulk> i'v seen a wiki page but it lacks examples i think
2200 2010-12-02 21:26:44 <brocktice> rulk: I'm happy to send some testnet coins too if you want more to play with
2201 2010-12-02 21:26:52 <brocktice> I generate quite a few whenever I'm testing my miner
2202 2010-12-02 21:27:02 Lyspooner has joined
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2204 2010-12-02 21:27:05 Lyspooner has joined
2205 2010-12-02 21:28:06 <Lyspooner> i believe you know a friend of mine
2206 2010-12-02 21:30:19 necrodearia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2207 2010-12-02 21:31:40 necrodearia has joined
2208 2010-12-02 21:32:56 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,stats
2209 2010-12-02 21:32:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 95150 | Current Difficulty: 8078.19525793 | Next Difficulty At Block: 96767 | Next Difficulty In: 1617 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 22 hours, 3 minutes, and 1 second | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10170.84030349
2210 2010-12-02 21:34:13 <Lyspooner> Is there a post on the forum that recognizes, lists and constructively addresses the weaknesses of bitcoin
2211 2010-12-02 21:35:09 <brocktice> there should probably be a whole section
2212 2010-12-02 21:36:01 <necrodearia> Lyspooner, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=788.0
2213 2010-12-02 21:36:06 <gavinandresen> Lyspooner: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=weaknesses
2214 2010-12-02 21:36:10 <necrodearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1563.0
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2218 2010-12-02 21:43:15 rulk has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2219 2010-12-02 21:45:46 <Lyspooner> thanks for those links necrodearia and gavinandresen
2220 2010-12-02 21:46:31 <Lyspooner> i might add an entire category of weakness that needs to have its own post--
2221 2010-12-02 21:46:40 <necrodearia> Maybe a wiki entry?
2222 2010-12-02 21:46:56 <Lyspooner> weaknesses with respect to widespread bitcoin adoption
2223 2010-12-02 21:47:09 <necrodearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=weaknesses
2224 2010-12-02 21:47:11 <Lyspooner> why won't my grandma use bitcoin
2225 2010-12-02 21:47:11 <gavinandresen> Lyspooner:  hmm?  You mean potential scaling problems?
2226 2010-12-02 21:47:25 <Kiba`> that's da different kind of weakness
2227 2010-12-02 21:47:29 <Kiba`> security weakness
2228 2010-12-02 21:47:31 <gavinandresen> ah.  you mean it's designed by geeks right now...
2229 2010-12-02 21:47:42 <Kiba`> and there's adoption problems..
2230 2010-12-02 21:48:27 <Lyspooner> i don't think the geeks are doing it wrong, but at the same time, i don't see how you can create a massive movement for the people based off of arguments of cryptography
2231 2010-12-02 21:48:48 <Kiba`> Lyspooner: that what bitcoinme.com is for
2232 2010-12-02 21:48:54 Palomides has left (""Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of war, where every man is enemy to every man, ...the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"")
2233 2010-12-02 21:48:54 <Kiba`> and mybitcoin.com
2234 2010-12-02 21:49:01 <Lyspooner> I understand gold because it's a hunk of metal that you get from a stone
2235 2010-12-02 21:49:02 <necrodearia> According to http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=weaknesses "BitCoin has 8 decimals of precision."  Does that mean that it is not possible to have 9 or more decimals of precision in the future?
2236 2010-12-02 21:49:32 <ArtForz> not impossible, just ... hard
2237 2010-12-02 21:50:05 <necrodearia> hmm
2238 2010-12-02 21:50:29 <ArtForz> but imo not really needed
2239 2010-12-02 21:50:34 <gavinandresen> gold has thousands of years of experience behind it.  I think it'll take at least 10 years before bitcoin is considered trustworthy enough for grandmas to use.
2240 2010-12-02 21:51:42 <Kiba`> it's nice to be unpopular for a while
2241 2010-12-02 21:51:46 <Kiba`> and then get really popular really fast
2242 2010-12-02 21:51:54 <Kiba`> the government don't know..then the government have no plans
2243 2010-12-02 21:52:21 <ArtForz> it'd be probably easier to create bitcoin-backed currencies to get around the divisibility problem in the far future
2244 2010-12-02 21:52:57 <Kiba`> just add a new percision of digit, ArtForz
2245 2010-12-02 21:53:03 <Kiba`> 100 percisions
2246 2010-12-02 21:53:05 <Kiba`> should be enough
2247 2010-12-02 21:53:17 <ArtForz> "just break the tx and block chain format"
2248 2010-12-02 21:53:25 <gavinandresen> If we ever need more precision, that would be an EXTREMELY good problem to have
2249 2010-12-02 21:53:31 <ArtForz> yep
2250 2010-12-02 21:53:34 <Lyspooner> ArtForz, what's the fundamental reason holding back 8 decimal places from 9?
2251 2010-12-02 21:53:40 <Lyspooner> to a non-tech guy
2252 2010-12-02 21:53:52 <ArtForz> because the fundamental unit in bitcoin is a microcent
2253 2010-12-02 21:53:58 <gavinandresen> ArtForz:  doesn't have to break the chain, there are unused upper bits in the 64-bit numbers we could use to add precision.
2254 2010-12-02 21:54:13 <Lyspooner> why not a nanocent
2255 2010-12-02 21:54:16 <ArtForz> how would that work?
2256 2010-12-02 21:54:48 <ArtForz> no old client would accept those txes or blocks containing em
2257 2010-12-02 21:55:17 <gavinandresen> Yeah, it would require a majority of clients to upgrade.
2258 2010-12-02 21:55:32 <ArtForz> and if we're breaking compatibility we might as well change the format
2259 2010-12-02 21:55:50 <Lyspooner> the original design... was 8 an arbitrary decision or is there some underlying constraing
2260 2010-12-02 21:56:02 <ArtForz> kinda arbitrary
2261 2010-12-02 21:56:10 <ArtForz> the 64 bit ints would have allowed for more
2262 2010-12-02 21:56:57 <necrodearia> Speaking of upgrades, is monitoraddress/blocks patch needed for version 0.3.17?   http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1319.20
2263 2010-12-02 21:57:22 <ArtForz> 21M coins divisible to nanocents would fit comfortably in 64 bits
2264 2010-12-02 21:57:31 <necrodearia> It doesn't compile with svn193.
2265 2010-12-02 21:57:47 <gavinandresen> necrodearia: I updated my git README.md today about that...
2266 2010-12-02 21:57:58 <necrodearia> mm, okay, I'll check it out. ^_^
2267 2010-12-02 21:58:14 <gavinandresen> necrodearia:  executive summary is:  it needs fixing.  But I don't have time to fix it right now.
2268 2010-12-02 21:58:20 <necrodearia> ah
2269 2010-12-02 21:59:20 <gavinandresen> (I'm getting close to launching https://clearcoin.appspot.com/  .... but that's a secret, don't tell anybody)
2270 2010-12-02 21:59:33 <necrodearia> okay, I won't
2271 2010-12-02 22:00:28 <necrodearia> (btw, if I type in parenthesis, does that mean nobody else can see what I type in a public channel?  e.g. this is akin to whispering, right?)
2272 2010-12-02 22:00:37 <gavinandresen> (yeah, totally)
2273 2010-12-02 22:00:49 <ArtForz> (hunter82)
2274 2010-12-02 22:00:55 <necrodearia> I see ********
2275 2010-12-02 22:01:18 <necrodearia> oops
2276 2010-12-02 22:01:21 <necrodearia> (I see ********)
2277 2010-12-02 22:01:25 <Lyspooner> (what are you going to clear)
2278 2010-12-02 22:01:37 <necrodearia> (Lyspooner  all your bitcoins)
2279 2010-12-02 22:01:43 <necrodearia> (All your bitcoins are belong to gavin)
2280 2010-12-02 22:01:55 <gavinandresen> (ooh... new company motto....)
2281 2010-12-02 22:02:03 <necrodearia> (^_^)
2282 2010-12-02 22:02:21 <ArtForz> [for great justice]
2283 2010-12-02 22:02:31 <necrodearia> {does not compute}
2284 2010-12-02 22:04:36 <Lyspooner> who the fuck is Patrick Timpone
2285 2010-12-02 22:04:54 <Lyspooner> http://goo.gl/FOecU
2286 2010-12-02 22:05:03 necrodearia has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2287 2010-12-02 22:05:32 mizery has joined
2288 2010-12-02 22:17:04 akem has joined
2289 2010-12-02 22:17:04 akem has quit (Changing host)
2290 2010-12-02 22:17:04 akem has joined
2291 2010-12-02 22:19:48 <brocktice> Lyspooner: some altie nutter apparently
2292 2010-12-02 22:19:55 <brocktice> but hey, he gave bitcoin publicity, so, great
2293 2010-12-02 22:20:18 <kermit> who's bruce wagner?
2294 2010-12-02 22:21:02 <brocktice> he seems to have some kind of videoblog
2295 2010-12-02 22:21:20 <Lyspooner> he loves bitcoin more than any of us
2296 2010-12-02 22:21:36 <brocktice> kermit: you're in the twin cities area right?
2297 2010-12-02 22:22:14 <andrew12> nelisky: aw, damnit
2298 2010-12-02 22:22:15 <andrew12> haha
2299 2010-12-02 22:23:39 <andrew12> i'll put 5 more in
2300 2010-12-02 22:23:49 StrangeCharm has joined
2301 2010-12-02 22:24:17 <kermit> brocktice: yes, why do you ask? i need a linux job.
2302 2010-12-02 22:24:31 <kermit> brocktice: and how did you know that?
2303 2010-12-02 22:24:38 * brocktice rubs his temples
2304 2010-12-02 22:24:41 <brocktice> psychic powers
2305 2010-12-02 22:25:01 <brocktice> kermit: I don't have full-time work, but sometimes I've thought about hiring out some linux admin stuff I need done
2306 2010-12-02 22:25:17 <StrangeCharm> how long should it take before i generate a bitcoin?
2307 2010-12-02 22:25:24 <brocktice> StrangeCharm: using what hardware?
2308 2010-12-02 22:25:31 <kermit> brocktice: i'm late on rent, so uhh, i'm pretty flexible right now.
2309 2010-12-02 22:25:42 <andrew12> StrangeCharm: it depends.
2310 2010-12-02 22:25:56 <brocktice> kermit: :(
2311 2010-12-02 22:26:01 osmosis has joined
2312 2010-12-02 22:26:01 <StrangeCharm> intel c2qe6400 ?
2313 2010-12-02 22:26:06 <andrew12> also you're not generating coins you're generating blocks.
2314 2010-12-02 22:26:11 <andrew12> StrangeCharm: how many hashes/sec?
2315 2010-12-02 22:26:23 <kermit> brocktice: oh haha its in my /whois
2316 2010-12-02 22:26:36 <StrangeCharm> 2925422
2317 2010-12-02 22:26:50 <andrew12> http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
2318 2010-12-02 22:27:01 <[Noodles]> ;;bc,calc 3000
2319 2010-12-02 22:27:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 3000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 19 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 33 minutes, and 14 seconds
2320 2010-12-02 22:27:06 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,calc 2925
2321 2010-12-02 22:27:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2925 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 19 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 55 minutes, and 38 seconds
2322 2010-12-02 22:27:22 <andrew12> that too
2323 2010-12-02 22:27:43 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 569
2324 2010-12-02 22:27:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 569 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1 year, 48 weeks, 4 days, 17 hours, 53 minutes, and 42 seconds
2325 2010-12-02 22:27:46 <andrew12> :(
2326 2010-12-02 22:27:58 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,calc 1
2327 2010-12-02 22:27:58 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1100 years, 9 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes, and 43 seconds
2328 2010-12-02 22:28:05 <Lyspooner> :( :( :(
2329 2010-12-02 22:28:17 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 1000000000000000
2330 2010-12-02 22:28:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 0 seconds
2331 2010-12-02 22:28:22 <andrew12> lol
2332 2010-12-02 22:28:30 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 1000000000
2333 2010-12-02 22:28:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 34 seconds
2334 2010-12-02 22:28:52 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,calc .001
2335 2010-12-02 22:28:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at .001 Khps, given current difficulty of 8078.19525793 , is 1100189 years, 39 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds
2336 2010-12-02 22:29:06 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2337 2010-12-02 22:29:10 <Lyspooner> yeah but i could get lucky
2338 2010-12-02 22:29:13 <xelister> Diablo-D3: are you sure your miner isnt broken
2339 2010-12-02 22:29:18 <StrangeCharm> is the hashespersec field of getinfo in khps or hps?
2340 2010-12-02 22:29:24 <brocktice> xelister: try it on testnet again?
2341 2010-12-02 22:29:27 <andrew12> hps
2342 2010-12-02 22:29:29 <xelister> I got 2 coins by miner,  and few hours later both are gone
2343 2010-12-02 22:29:46 <xelister> they are NOT listed by the GUI client as the maturing blocks
2344 2010-12-02 22:29:48 <StrangeCharm> so i need to divide by 1000 before using that too, right
2345 2010-12-02 22:29:49 <andrew12> you don't get 2 coins by a miner
2346 2010-12-02 22:29:56 <andrew12> you get 50/block
2347 2010-12-02 22:30:07 <xelister> * 2 blocks, sorry, typo ( andrew12 )
2348 2010-12-02 22:30:12 <andrew12> lol
2349 2010-12-02 22:30:24 <xelister> anyone knows how to see (other then GUI) number of currently metured blocks???
2350 2010-12-02 22:30:34 <xelister> and number of blocks received by bitcoin (from miner)
2351 2010-12-02 22:30:43 <andrew12> you mean currently generated # of blocks?
2352 2010-12-02 22:30:46 <xelister> and blocks that where founc by us, but later discarded
2353 2010-12-02 22:30:50 <brocktice> xelister: you need the listtransactions patch
2354 2010-12-02 22:30:54 <brocktice> that will do some of those things
2355 2010-12-02 22:30:59 <xelister> is it ANYWHERE, like in the debug.log ???
2356 2010-12-02 22:31:12 <brocktice> xelister: do you see proof-of-work notices in debug.log?
2357 2010-12-02 22:31:14 <StrangeCharm> is it possible to use a gpu to generate bitcoins?
2358 2010-12-02 22:31:15 <xelister> ok and since I used 186+getwork, is it anywyer
2359 2010-12-02 22:31:27 <brocktice> grep proof debug.log
2360 2010-12-02 22:31:30 <xelister> brocktice: I dont see ANY proof-of-work in debug.log ... is debug.log rotated?
2361 2010-12-02 22:31:36 <brocktice> xelister: yeah when you restart
2362 2010-12-02 22:31:41 <xelister> brocktice: I did what you say today morning and was surprisded to find..
2363 2010-12-02 22:31:45 <xelister> LOG ROTATED ON RESTART?
2364 2010-12-02 22:31:49 <xelister> thanks a lot &*$)#($!
2365 2010-12-02 22:31:55 * xelister patches
2366 2010-12-02 22:31:58 <brocktice> :)
2367 2010-12-02 22:32:03 <Lyspooner> StrangeCharm: yes
2368 2010-12-02 22:32:08 <xelister> by rotate ofc we mean simply overwrite with no backup?
2369 2010-12-02 22:32:12 <brocktice> AFAICT
2370 2010-12-02 22:32:18 <StrangeCharm> Lyspooner, is there usable code out there for me to do so?
2371 2010-12-02 22:32:19 <brocktice> I've not investigated it thoroughly
2372 2010-12-02 22:33:05 <andrew12> StrangeCharm: indeed there is. http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoin_miners
2373 2010-12-02 22:33:10 <gavinandresen> xelister: if debug.log is bigger than (i forget kilobytes) then the last (i forget kilobytes) of the old log is used to start over.
2374 2010-12-02 22:33:21 <gavinandresen> xelister: on restart.
2375 2010-12-02 22:33:47 <Lyspooner> StrangeCharm: also try http://www.newslobster.com/random/how-to-get-started-using-your-gpu-to-mine-for-bitcoins-on-windows
2376 2010-12-02 22:34:07 <StrangeCharm> Lyspooner, sadly, not using windows
2377 2010-12-02 22:34:22 <Lyspooner> :)
2378 2010-12-02 22:34:36 <osmosis> it takes too long to generate any coins.
2379 2010-12-02 22:34:46 <xelister> osmosis: you can buy them simply
2380 2010-12-02 22:34:50 <osmosis> who the heck as the million or so that are suppose to be out there already?
2381 2010-12-02 22:35:03 <osmosis> xelister, whats the cheapest place?
2382 2010-12-02 22:35:13 <xelister> osmosis: the standard place is http://mtgox.com/
2383 2010-12-02 22:35:19 <nanotube> mtgox is the biggest market right now.
2384 2010-12-02 22:35:24 <nanotube> try also #bitcoin-otc
2385 2010-12-02 22:35:25 <xelister> osmosis: you can try asking people individually in #bitcoin-otc  too
2386 2010-12-02 22:35:41 * xelister beats up nanotube with his 85C gpu core
2387 2010-12-02 22:36:00 * nanotube shields with his rickety old laptop.
2388 2010-12-02 22:37:54 <osmosis> when bitcoin first went live and there werent that many people generating coins, did the few here were rake in tons of bitcoins?
2389 2010-12-02 22:38:06 <brocktice> osmosis: must have
2390 2010-12-02 22:38:17 <andrew12> one would think so
2391 2010-12-02 22:38:38 <[Noodles]> not tons, but more than today
2392 2010-12-02 22:38:40 <nanotube> osmosis: yes, quite certain.
2393 2010-12-02 22:38:48 <Lyspooner> bitcoins can't really be weighed in tons
2394 2010-12-02 22:38:52 <andrew12> "It is certain."
2395 2010-12-02 22:39:01 <andrew12> Lyspooner: sure they can! tons of gold :)
2396 2010-12-02 22:39:16 <Lyspooner> nor can they be raked
2397 2010-12-02 22:39:30 <andrew12> lol
2398 2010-12-02 22:39:31 <nanotube> at difficulty 1, generation was 8k faster than now. :) so you could generate many blocks a day with just a regular cpu.
2399 2010-12-02 22:39:33 <andrew12> bitleaves
2400 2010-12-02 22:39:52 <andrew12> I demand the difficulty be reset to 1. lolwut
2401 2010-12-02 22:39:52 <Lyspooner> bitleaves grow on merkle trees
2402 2010-12-02 22:40:46 <nanotube> haha
2403 2010-12-02 22:41:17 <xelister> lol 1
2404 2010-12-02 22:41:32 davex__ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2405 2010-12-02 22:41:40 <andrew12> when was the last time the bitcoin faucet had more than 500 bitcoins?
2406 2010-12-02 22:42:56 <nanotube> andrew12: dunno, ask gavin.
2407 2010-12-02 22:43:06 * andrew12 asks gavin
2408 2010-12-02 22:43:09 <andrew12> :p
2409 2010-12-02 22:43:21 <andrew12> gavinandresen: when was the last time the bitcoin faucet had more than 500 bitcoins?
2410 2010-12-02 22:43:53 <gavinandresen> andrew12: a day or three ago.
2411 2010-12-02 22:44:02 <andrew12> wow
2412 2010-12-02 22:44:29 <Lyspooner> my first 5 bitcoins were from gavin
2413 2010-12-02 22:44:31 <andrew12> it must've gotten a ton of traffic if it's at 480.88 in 3 days
2414 2010-12-02 22:44:33 <[Noodles]> think i'v seen it a few days ago above 500, but everytime it is, there's some greedy people trying to get more then they deserve
2415 2010-12-02 22:44:34 <xelister> gavinandresen: I demand my IP rested
2416 2010-12-02 22:44:39 <xelister>  /now/
2417 2010-12-02 22:44:41 <xelister> :P
2418 2010-12-02 22:44:44 <gavinandresen> It gets a donation that pushes it a few bitcoins over, then the 0.50 coins drain it 10 times faster than usual and it goes below again....
2419 2010-12-02 22:44:54 <andrew12> my first 0.05 bitcoins were from gavin. i sent them back because i'm cool
2420 2010-12-02 22:45:11 <gavinandresen> And it may not be greedy people-- if you get 0.05, you can get the other 0.45 if it goes above 500.
2421 2010-12-02 22:45:32 <gavinandresen> (i'm starting to stop making sense, aren't i....)
2422 2010-12-02 22:45:35 <[Noodles]> i dont want them, but thankies ^.^
2423 2010-12-02 22:45:39 <andrew12> no, it makes sense
2424 2010-12-02 22:45:40 <Lyspooner> how many times has the spigot been turned on in its history?
2425 2010-12-02 22:45:57 <gavinandresen> Lyspooner: I dunno, I don't keep track.
2426 2010-12-02 22:46:05 <andrew12> d'oh
2427 2010-12-02 22:46:06 <Lyspooner> shame
2428 2010-12-02 22:46:16 <andrew12> you can look at the transations
2429 2010-12-02 22:46:21 <[Noodles]> has been 5coins (woot!) back when i tried it, but i sent those back to the faucet
2430 2010-12-02 22:46:32 <gavinandresen> Noodles:  thanks!
2431 2010-12-02 22:46:52 <jgarzik> IMO it should spit out 0.05 unless balance is over 1000 BTC
2432 2010-12-02 22:46:59 <gavinandresen> If you want to feel rich, run bitcoin -testnet  and go to the TEST faucet.  It is giving out 5,000 make-pretend testcoins right now.
2433 2010-12-02 22:47:24 <andrew12> ooh
2434 2010-12-02 22:47:50 <andrew12> does -testnet not save anything?
2435 2010-12-02 22:47:51 <[Noodles]> btw, is there a need for non-generating nodes on the testnet?
2436 2010-12-02 22:48:01 <StrangeCharm> how does one check out code from git?
2437 2010-12-02 22:48:23 <andrew12> git clone <url>
2438 2010-12-02 22:48:26 <gavinandresen> Noodles:  not really... testnet needs more generating nodes at the moment, though.
2439 2010-12-02 22:48:42 <andrew12> or git clone url folder
2440 2010-12-02 22:48:46 <andrew12> if you want a different folder
2441 2010-12-02 22:48:59 <gavinandresen> andrew12:  -testnet saves to a different wallet, block database, etc.
2442 2010-12-02 22:49:01 <[Noodles]> i'll see if i can spare a core or 2
2443 2010-12-02 22:49:19 <andrew12> gavinandresen: cool
2444 2010-12-02 22:49:20 noagendamarket has joined
2445 2010-12-02 22:49:27 <andrew12> first i must wait for all of the blocks :p
2446 2010-12-02 22:49:49 <gavinandresen> andrew12: only 12,000 of them on the testnet.
2447 2010-12-02 22:49:53 <andrew12> gavinandresen: where is the test faucet?
2448 2010-12-02 22:49:57 <StrangeCharm> andrew12, i'm completely clueless here, and trying to run the opencl miner code from github, what should i be doing here?
2449 2010-12-02 22:50:06 <gavinandresen> err... 17,000 ....
2450 2010-12-02 22:50:08 albatross has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2451 2010-12-02 22:50:08 <andrew12> StrangeCharm: are you on windows or linux?
2452 2010-12-02 22:50:18 <StrangeCharm> andrew12, linux
2453 2010-12-02 22:50:22 <andrew12> okay
2454 2010-12-02 22:50:25 <andrew12> do you have git installed?
2455 2010-12-02 22:50:32 <StrangeCharm> [otherwise i'd be following the windows instructions]
2456 2010-12-02 22:50:43 <StrangeCharm> yet. i just apt-get install git'd
2457 2010-12-02 22:50:44 <gavinandresen> andrew12: test faucet is https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/TEST
2458 2010-12-02 22:50:48 <andrew12> ok
2459 2010-12-02 22:51:10 <xelister> well..
2460 2010-12-02 22:51:17 <xelister> Block 1 found on Cypress at 9:02:43 PM
2461 2010-12-02 22:51:18 <xelister> Block 2 found on Cypress at 9:13:26 PM
2462 2010-12-02 22:51:21 <xelister> so 3 hours ago
2463 2010-12-02 22:51:31 <andrew12> StrangeCharm: assuming you have a terminal window open, type in 'git clone git://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git.git' without quotes
2464 2010-12-02 22:51:48 <xelister> oh man I have to disable log rotation
2465 2010-12-02 22:52:16 <xelister> is any bitcoin >186 compatible with normal miners (have the correct getwork instead of it's gayified version)?
2466 2010-12-02 22:52:58 <StrangeCharm> andrew12, then i rename makefile.unix to makefile, and make it?
2467 2010-12-02 22:53:16 <andrew12> one sec
2468 2010-12-02 22:53:40 <andrew12> read build-unix.txt
2469 2010-12-02 22:53:52 <andrew12> or https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/blob/master/build-unix.txt since it's all on there too
2470 2010-12-02 22:54:45 <StrangeCharm> andrew12, does this include the cuda miner?
2471 2010-12-02 22:55:03 <andrew12> no, you download that separately
2472 2010-12-02 22:55:18 <andrew12> 'cause of the way it works
2473 2010-12-02 22:55:25 <andrew12> I've never tried special miners so I don't know
2474 2010-12-02 22:55:41 <xelister> StrangeCharm: I recommend Diablo miner I guess
2475 2010-12-02 22:55:46 <andrew12> I couldn't even get bitcoin to compile. stupid Mac.
2476 2010-12-02 22:55:55 <StrangeCharm> i already have bitcoin running, so i guess i just need the miner now
2477 2010-12-02 22:56:12 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm: the miner's not at my github
2478 2010-12-02 22:56:16 <StrangeCharm> xelister, this one: https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner ?
2479 2010-12-02 22:56:32 <andrew12> humm
2480 2010-12-02 22:56:38 <[Noodles]> or this one https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm
2481 2010-12-02 22:57:38 <StrangeCharm> [Noodles], that one doesn't do cuda, though, right?
2482 2010-12-02 22:58:03 <andrew12> it does opencl
2483 2010-12-02 22:58:14 <andrew12> they both do opencl
2484 2010-12-02 22:58:26 <xelister> StrangeCharm: I guess, yea... but Im verifing it
2485 2010-12-02 22:58:37 <xelister> StrangeCharm: btw, nvidia sucks balls for mining (x4 slower)
2486 2010-12-02 22:59:17 <StrangeCharm> xelister, well, i'm not buying new stuff, i just want my existing stuff to do the best it can
2487 2010-12-02 22:59:35 <gavinandresen> Is there an open source CUDA miner?  I'm not sure there is.....
2488 2010-12-02 23:00:31 <StrangeCharm> gavinandresen, is there a closed source one that works?
2489 2010-12-02 23:01:04 <gavinandresen> StrangeCharm: I dunno.  I'm running on a Mac, with no GPU-programming support at all :(
2490 2010-12-02 23:01:05 <[Noodles]> cuda-code is from puddinpop, i think the source is available, not sure where though
2491 2010-12-02 23:02:20 <StrangeCharm> diabolo doesn't do cuda?
2492 2010-12-02 23:03:08 davex__ has joined
2493 2010-12-02 23:03:20 Lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026200743])
2494 2010-12-02 23:03:38 <[Noodles]> well, it's a java-version of m0mchil's code as far as i know
2495 2010-12-02 23:03:40 <andrew12> there should be a test taabl
2496 2010-12-02 23:03:41 <andrew12> haha
2497 2010-12-02 23:04:07 <wumpus> doesn't mac do opencl?
2498 2010-12-02 23:04:14 <andrew12> yeah
2499 2010-12-02 23:04:20 <[Noodles]> they should all work on nvidia, just not as fast as on ati
2500 2010-12-02 23:04:22 <andrew12> I can't get my mac to compile libdb
2501 2010-12-02 23:04:29 <StrangeCharm> [Noodles], is one generally considered faster than the other?
2502 2010-12-02 23:04:42 <wumpus> ati is much faster for doing hashes
2503 2010-12-02 23:04:42 <[Noodles]> no, speed is more or less equal
2504 2010-12-02 23:04:53 <gavinandresen> My mac doesn't do opencl (radeon 57xx ... opencl support on osx is only nvidia so far)
2505 2010-12-02 23:05:04 <andrew12> gavinandresen: are you serious?
2506 2010-12-02 23:05:07 <gavinandresen> yup
2507 2010-12-02 23:05:10 <andrew12> god dammit
2508 2010-12-02 23:05:13 <andrew12> I really need a new mac
2509 2010-12-02 23:05:19 <[Noodles]> ati is faster than nvidia, but one miners is about the same speed as others
2510 2010-12-02 23:05:35 <wumpus> then again, if you have a gpu that barely runs cuda/opencl it's still pretty useless for mining
2511 2010-12-02 23:05:41 <wumpus> like mine :)
2512 2010-12-02 23:05:43 <andrew12> i've got a macbook (late 2007), so it's still got onboard graphics
2513 2010-12-02 23:06:06 <andrew12> why is the testnet only getting 1 connection :(
2514 2010-12-02 23:06:21 <wumpus> yeah the two GPU miners are pretty much alike, at least the GPU code part
2515 2010-12-02 23:06:29 <andrew12> 10262 blocks
2516 2010-12-02 23:06:30 <[Noodles]> not true, even my oldest opencl-capable card, a 8600GT is faster than any of my CPUs
2517 2010-12-02 23:06:44 <wumpus> yes my 8600gt is much faster than my gpu too
2518 2010-12-02 23:06:58 <wumpus> but it's still so much slower than the state of the art
2519 2010-12-02 23:07:03 <wumpus> cpu*
2520 2010-12-02 23:07:07 <andrew12> what's the difference between CUDA and OpenCL anyways?
2521 2010-12-02 23:07:21 <StrangeCharm> well, the diabolo-miner linux startup script dies on me, so off to the other miner
2522 2010-12-02 23:07:24 <wumpus> cuda has some extra nvidia specific features and is nvidia specific
2523 2010-12-02 23:07:29 <ArtForz> CUDA = nvidia only, and nvidia = teh suck for hashing
2524 2010-12-02 23:07:34 <wumpus> but it's nearly the same apart from that
2525 2010-12-02 23:07:40 <andrew12> oic
2526 2010-12-02 23:07:46 <wumpus> opencl is based on cuda
2527 2010-12-02 23:07:56 <andrew12> that explains why OpenCL isn't just CL
2528 2010-12-02 23:08:07 <andrew12> yay open~!
2529 2010-12-02 23:08:07 <xelister> http://imagebin.org/125928
2530 2010-12-02 23:08:15 <xelister> is Diablo miner broken or what is going on
2531 2010-12-02 23:08:31 <xelister> or really I got 2 blocks that dissappear in just 2 hours??
2532 2010-12-02 23:09:15 <andrew12> I should try running bitcoin in Linux
2533 2010-12-02 23:09:50 <ArtForz> and for "just how bad does nvidia suck". a GTX580 is about on par with a HD5750
2534 2010-12-02 23:10:09 <xelister> so best nvidia, with old and "meh" radeon
2535 2010-12-02 23:10:12 <wumpus> nvidia doesn't suck for float and double computation! just for hashing
2536 2010-12-02 23:10:23 <StrangeCharm> apparently, i can't make either miner work :(
2537 2010-12-02 23:10:35 <andrew12> would my radeon 9900 (agp) run opencl?
2538 2010-12-02 23:10:38 <ArtForz> actually nvidia consumer cards also suck for double precision
2539 2010-12-02 23:10:47 <wumpus> oil and gas, and banks mostly use nvidia
2540 2010-12-02 23:11:00 <xelister> to what, play quake4?
2541 2010-12-02 23:11:16 <wumpus> to run through models
2542 2010-12-02 23:11:20 <ArtForz> 4xx/5xx GTX DP is crippled to 1/8 SP throughput
2543 2010-12-02 23:11:21 <wumpus> monte carlo simulations etc
2544 2010-12-02 23:11:40 <StrangeCharm> what is this 'numpy' thing that it's trying to import?
2545 2010-12-02 23:11:46 <[Noodles]> ArtForz: you really think a GTX580 is that fast? 2 of them maybe ^.^
2546 2010-12-02 23:11:56 <wumpus> but I'm sure the NSA loves ATI cards :P
2547 2010-12-02 23:12:05 <xelister> wumpus: hm?
2548 2010-12-02 23:12:10 <ArtForz> nope, a GTX580 should get about 110Mh/s
2549 2010-12-02 23:12:18 <wumpus> as they're great for cracking codes
2550 2010-12-02 23:12:45 <ArtForz> a stock HD5970 does 530 ...
2551 2010-12-02 23:13:28 <ArtForz> about same price, about same power consumption, about 4.5x hashrate
2552 2010-12-02 23:14:28 <wumpus> would be pretty funny if they started advertising gpus based on hashrate
2553 2010-12-02 23:16:13 <ArtForz> that indeed would be funny
2554 2010-12-02 23:16:41 AAA_awright has joined
2555 2010-12-02 23:18:36 <xelister> guys? any thoughts why 2 blocks where mind but they are just dissapeard from bitcoin UI (not even as maturing blocks) - http://imagebin.org/125928  ?
2556 2010-12-02 23:19:22 <xelister> proof-of-work found
2557 2010-12-02 23:19:23 <xelister>   hash: 000000000002d4a221e4db11686ac2c2c65728b43c23871cb8f7ac1eef113206
2558 2010-12-02 23:19:32 <xelister> SetBestChain: new best=000000000002d4a221e4  height=95170  work=214502957482692775
2559 2010-12-02 23:19:44 <xelister> do you see this new block already?
2560 2010-12-02 23:19:52 <xelister> I just mined it
2561 2010-12-02 23:20:21 <ArtForz> http://blockexplorer.com/b/95170
2562 2010-12-02 23:21:14 <xelister> yey my block.
2563 2010-12-02 23:21:38 <StrangeCharm> what are the dependencies for the poclbm ?
2564 2010-12-02 23:21:40 <xelister> if there is a tree collision in next ~18 hours, then the above site will then list the other block instead of mine?
2565 2010-12-02 23:21:52 <xelister> StrangeCharm: you are trying to run a miner?
2566 2010-12-02 23:21:53 <ArtForz> I doubt that block will disappear
2567 2010-12-02 23:21:58 <StrangeCharm> xelister, yes!
2568 2010-12-02 23:22:09 <ArtForz> theres already 3 blocks after it
2569 2010-12-02 23:22:15 osmosis has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2570 2010-12-02 23:22:23 <xelister> StrangeCharm: what distro/system?
2571 2010-12-02 23:22:50 <StrangeCharm> ubuntu 10.10
2572 2010-12-02 23:23:10 <StrangeCharm> it's calling a python library that i don't recognise
2573 2010-12-02 23:23:54 <ArtForz> which one?
2574 2010-12-02 23:24:43 <ArtForz> apt-get install python-numpy
2575 2010-12-02 23:24:49 <StrangeCharm> got that
2576 2010-12-02 23:24:50 <xelister> numpy?
2577 2010-12-02 23:24:58 <StrangeCharm> and the open cl one
2578 2010-12-02 23:25:10 <StrangeCharm> but now it's calling jsonrpc
2579 2010-12-02 23:25:18 <StrangeCharm> i don't know where that lives
2580 2010-12-02 23:25:39 <xelister> StrangeCharm: I have a miner also on 10.10, both python and java. I recommend java. if I set you up a miner on ubuntu 10.10  would you give me say half of first block when you mine it?
2581 2010-12-02 23:25:41 <andrew12> StrangeCharm: you need to have bitcoin already running for differnet miners to work
2582 2010-12-02 23:26:04 <Diablo-D3> [05:55:59] <StrangeCharm> xelister, this one: https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner
2583 2010-12-02 23:26:06 <Diablo-D3> ohhai
2584 2010-12-02 23:26:07 <xelister> jsonrpc you can download or easy-instal, and then you build and install it (from source or from easy install)
2585 2010-12-02 23:26:11 <Diablo-D3> [05:59:18] <gavinandresen> Is there an open source CUDA miner?  I'm not sure there is....
2586 2010-12-02 23:26:15 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: no, nor should there be
2587 2010-12-02 23:26:26 <andrew12> weee
2588 2010-12-02 23:26:29 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: cuda will be 100% dead once nvidia finally files for bankruptcy, which will be soon
2589 2010-12-02 23:26:36 <Diablo-D3> [05:28:56] <xelister> Diablo-D3: are you sure your miner isnt broken
2590 2010-12-02 23:26:38 <Diablo-D3> xelister: yes
2591 2010-12-02 23:26:48 <xelister> Diablo-D3: it said it generated 4 blocks. I dont see them
2592 2010-12-02 23:27:08 <Diablo-D3> are you absolutely 100% sure you're using the newest version
2593 2010-12-02 23:27:14 <StrangeCharm> andrew12, bitcoind is running, just slowly
2594 2010-12-02 23:27:54 <Diablo-D3> xelister: try the test net for fast gen testing
2595 2010-12-02 23:28:03 <StrangeCharm> when i start the diabolo miner, it complains of a java failure and dies, xelister
2596 2010-12-02 23:28:17 <Diablo-D3> StrangeCharm: pastebin the error
2597 2010-12-02 23:28:22 <xelister> Diablo-D3:
2598 2010-12-02 23:28:24 <Diablo-D3> and as further note, I wrote that miner
2599 2010-12-02 23:28:25 <xelister> [Tuesday 30 November 2010] [17:27:09] <xelister> Block 1 found on Cypress at 9:42:05 AM
2600 2010-12-02 23:28:26 <xelister> [Tuesday 30 November 2010] [17:27:09] <xelister> Block 2 found on Cypress at 12:59:22 PM
2601 2010-12-02 23:28:28 <xelister> [Tuesday 30 November 2010] [17:27:09] <xelister> Block 3 found on Cypress at 2:53:04 PM
2602 2010-12-02 23:28:29 <xelister> [Tuesday 30 November 2010] [17:27:09] <xelister> Block 4 found on Cypress at 4:31:23 PM
2603 2010-12-02 23:28:37 <xelister> Diablo-D3: miner reported 4 blocks,  just 2 of them matured
2604 2010-12-02 23:28:46 <xelister> others are totally gone. not even visible in GUI
2605 2010-12-02 23:28:52 <Diablo-D3> xelister: its quite entirely possible you didnt make it that block.
2606 2010-12-02 23:29:00 <Diablo-D3> xelister: you dont get EVERY gen, even with the cpu miner
2607 2010-12-02 23:29:12 <Diablo-D3> xelister: whoever submits the block first wins
2608 2010-12-02 23:29:15 <ArtForz> yes, but 2/4 sounds a bit... high
2609 2010-12-02 23:29:19 <doublec> gavinandresen, Diablo-D3, puddinpop's open source code includes a cuda miner
2610 2010-12-02 23:29:27 <Diablo-D3> doublec: I thought puddinpops was opencl?
2611 2010-12-02 23:29:34 <xelister> Diablo-D3: what, 2 of 4 blocks are gone, wtf
2612 2010-12-02 23:29:36 <doublec> Diablo-D3, it has both
2613 2010-12-02 23:29:53 <doublec> I haven't tested it but the code is there and there's a compile configuration switch to turn it on
2614 2010-12-02 23:30:39 <Diablo-D3> doublec: ahh, didnt know that
2615 2010-12-02 23:30:44 <StrangeCharm> Diablo-D3, http://pastebin.com/nff8g7h2
2616 2010-12-02 23:30:46 <Diablo-D3> xelister: its unfortunately bad luck, yes
2617 2010-12-02 23:30:56 <xelister> Diablo-D3: well, how to check if that is really what happened?
2618 2010-12-02 23:30:59 <Diablo-D3> xelister: cant.
2619 2010-12-02 23:31:05 <xelister> it sucks donkey balls
2620 2010-12-02 23:31:12 <Diablo-D3> xelister: ALTHOUGH satoshi added a new feature
2621 2010-12-02 23:31:14 <xelister> also debug.log is stupid
2622 2010-12-02 23:31:20 <xelister> the list transactions thing?
2623 2010-12-02 23:31:27 <Diablo-D3> xelister: his version of the new getwork api returns true/false
2624 2010-12-02 23:31:38 <Diablo-D3> xelister: but heres the problem
2625 2010-12-02 23:31:47 <xelister> well, but his API doesn't work with noones miner, right?
2626 2010-12-02 23:32:02 <Diablo-D3> I use a known working implementation of sha256 (the one in java itself) to process the entire block to make sure its a winner
2627 2010-12-02 23:32:07 <xelister> boy, he done goofed.. why he suddenly broke up existing solution with such upstream change
2628 2010-12-02 23:32:18 <Diablo-D3> it works with m0's
2629 2010-12-02 23:32:25 <Diablo-D3> and its an easy change, he listed how it should be done
2630 2010-12-02 23:32:29 <xelister> Diablo-D3: will you update yours miner to be compatile/
2631 2010-12-02 23:32:31 <Diablo-D3> yes
2632 2010-12-02 23:32:35 <xelister> perhaps today?
2633 2010-12-02 23:32:40 <Diablo-D3> perhaps tommorow
2634 2010-12-02 23:32:44 <Diablo-D3> its the next on the todo list
2635 2010-12-02 23:32:51 <xelister> I would like to deploy your miner in next hours to small cluster
2636 2010-12-02 23:32:55 <Diablo-D3> xelister: I took a 3 day break because I bought supreme commander 2
2637 2010-12-02 23:32:57 <xelister> I selected yours miner :)
2638 2010-12-02 23:33:04 <xelister> O LOLOLLOLOL supreme commander
2639 2010-12-02 23:33:06 <Diablo-D3> and supcom2 came first.
2640 2010-12-02 23:33:11 <xelister> that is that game from  battleship 3001 etc?
2641 2010-12-02 23:33:17 <Diablo-D3> no.
2642 2010-12-02 23:33:20 <xelister> oh
2643 2010-12-02 23:33:24 <Diablo-D3> thats the game from the guys who wrote TA
2644 2010-12-02 23:33:37 <Diablo-D3> okay as for StrangeCharm's bug
2645 2010-12-02 23:33:50 <Diablo-D3> StrangeCharm: did you download the git and forget to build it?
2646 2010-12-02 23:33:54 <StrangeCharm> Diablo-D3, i suspect user error rather than bug
2647 2010-12-02 23:34:06 <xelister> right, I confused it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser_3000AD
2648 2010-12-02 23:34:17 <StrangeCharm> Diablo-D3, i just downloaded it, and ran the script in the tld
2649 2010-12-02 23:34:24 <Diablo-D3> StrangeCharm: the git, not the zip?
2650 2010-12-02 23:34:26 <StrangeCharm> do i need to build something in src?
2651 2010-12-02 23:34:36 <Diablo-D3> the zip already has it built BUT
2652 2010-12-02 23:34:39 <Diablo-D3> run mvn package
2653 2010-12-02 23:35:15 <StrangeCharm> what?
2654 2010-12-02 23:35:53 <Diablo-D3> to build it (or any java program that uses maven) run: mvn package
2655 2010-12-02 23:36:27 <Diablo-D3> StrangeCharm: I also distribute a zip of the newest git build, already built for lazy people
2656 2010-12-02 23:36:27 <xelister> mvn is a bloated by apparently nice make-like program for java
2657 2010-12-02 23:36:34 <xelister> *but
2658 2010-12-02 23:36:40 <Diablo-D3> not bloated, its really efficient
2659 2010-12-02 23:36:50 <xelister> mvn -> install maven
2660 2010-12-02 23:36:52 <StrangeCharm> Diablo-D3, run that in what dir?
2661 2010-12-02 23:37:06 <Diablo-D3> StrangeCharm: in the top dir that has DiabloMiner*.sh
2662 2010-12-02 23:38:03 <StrangeCharm> hold on, first i have to install 130mb of software for maven2
2663 2010-12-02 23:38:18 <Diablo-D3> xelister: but yeah, I agree with ArtForz, 2 out of 4 is bad, but its not statistically big enough to know
2664 2010-12-02 23:38:30 <Diablo-D3> xelister: run on testnet, you dont have to compete there so you shouldnt have any major failures
2665 2010-12-02 23:38:58 <Diablo-D3> xelister: although one or two WILL slip in
2666 2010-12-02 23:39:11 <Diablo-D3> after about several hundred blocks, I noticed 3 or 4 failures
2667 2010-12-02 23:39:16 <Diablo-D3> and its not my client
2668 2010-12-02 23:39:19 <Diablo-D3> I just didnt make it
2669 2010-12-02 23:40:15 <StrangeCharm> Diablo-D3, so, once i install maven, i run mvn package in the tld, then i run the script, and it should work?
2670 2010-12-02 23:41:42 opensanta has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2671 2010-12-02 23:41:52 <xelister> Diablo-D3: I need to add to your miner reporting
2672 2010-12-02 23:42:04 <xelister> how much blocks where found, how much confirmed
2673 2010-12-02 23:42:17 <xelister> should I use gettransactions patch and RPC that from your miner?
2674 2010-12-02 23:42:32 <xelister> StrangeCharm: yes. worked for me
2675 2010-12-02 23:45:32 CyanDynamo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)