1 2010-12-13 00:00:06 <davux> so what does it mean to say that bitcoin tries to pick the older coins first?
   2 2010-12-13 00:00:27 <cosurgi> more transactions
   3 2010-12-13 00:00:44 <davux> i mean, what exactly is picked?
   4 2010-12-13 00:00:55 <theymos> "Coin" in that sense refers to a transaction output sent to you.
   5 2010-12-13 00:01:08 <ArtForz> older coins = unspent transaction outputs with highest # of confirmations
   6 2010-12-13 00:01:32 <davux> so what would a convenient object to talk about, if not coins?
   7 2010-12-13 00:01:38 <davux> transaction outputs?
   8 2010-12-13 00:01:48 <davux> +be
   9 2010-12-13 00:02:53 <ArtForz> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/81513ea765671f1a4858263f3488a94c32971706eee844111d3daad3855b83ed
  10 2010-12-13 00:03:02 <theymos> You could graph all of the outputs. The lines would combine and split into new outputs.
  11 2010-12-13 00:03:28 <ArtForz> 16.05 and 650 go in, 666 and 0.05 come out, did the 0.05 come from 1st or 2nd input?
  12 2010-12-13 00:03:57 <theymos> I'm going to make a textual sort of graph on BBE (nested list items, probably), to assist in tracking addresses and transactions.
  13 2010-12-13 00:04:05 <ArtForz> answer: neither, or both, depends on how you see it
  14 2010-12-13 00:05:10 <ArtForz> yep
  15 2010-12-13 00:05:30 <ArtForz> thats what I said
  16 2010-12-13 00:05:54 <ArtForz> "tracing back" a coin would just follow back all inputs of transactions with multiple inputs
  17 2010-12-13 00:06:00 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  18 2010-12-13 00:06:05 <ArtForz> I suspect most graphs will look rather tree-like
  19 2010-12-13 00:06:11 <davux> ok,so transaction input/outputs are like stacks of bitcoins. A transactionmixes various stacks into one, and splits it again into several, with a different repartition
  20 2010-12-13 00:06:17 <ArtForz> yep
  21 2010-12-13 00:06:46 <davux> either of which can then be used as input for another transaction
  22 2010-12-13 00:07:06 <davux> and get mixed with the other inputs of the same transaction
  23 2010-12-13 00:07:08 <davux> etc.
  24 2010-12-13 00:07:37 <ArtForz> pretty much, yeah
  25 2010-12-13 00:07:46 <ArtForz> and then theres the special case of TX fees, sum(inputs) > sum(outputs), the difference ends up in the coinbase to the miner
  26 2010-12-13 00:07:46 <davux> i wonder how to best represent that graphically
  27 2010-12-13 00:08:06 <ArtForz> not a problem tracing backwards, but another possible branch going forward
  28 2010-12-13 00:13:33 <doublec> bitcoin has a remote kill switch that only one person has the key for?
  29 2010-12-13 00:13:46 <ArtForz> not exactly a kill switch
  30 2010-12-13 00:13:49 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  31 2010-12-13 00:13:55 <theymos> Satoshi just disabled safe mode.
  32 2010-12-13 00:14:01 <doublec> s/has/had
  33 2010-12-13 00:14:25 <theymos> It shut down RPC. You could still use the GUI.
  34 2010-12-13 00:14:39 <ArtForz> and reintroduced in r200
  35 2010-12-13 00:14:48 <doublec> The original post said that it made all money handling functions return an error. Was it only RPC functions?
  36 2010-12-13 00:14:49 Grantt has joined
  37 2010-12-13 00:14:57 <theymos> doublec: Yes.
  38 2010-12-13 00:14:58 randyw has joined
  39 2010-12-13 00:15:01 <doublec> ok
  40 2010-12-13 00:15:15 <davux> what's safe mode?
  41 2010-12-13 00:15:21 <doublec> Is that documented anywhere?
  42 2010-12-13 00:15:26 <theymos> Safe mode still exists (the stuff put back in r200), but it's not remotely-activated.
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  47 2010-12-13 00:16:34 <davux> i don't understand what you guys are saying
  48 2010-12-13 00:18:16 <doublec> davux, I don't know what the current situation is, but a running bitcoin instance could receive a message that only satoshi could send (satoshi has the private key) that would stop all bitcoin instances from doing money transactions over RPC
  49 2010-12-13 00:18:40 <doublec> davux, intended for times if/when a major bug or exploit is found
  50 2010-12-13 00:18:53 <theymos> Satoshi can still send alerts, which will appear in all clients. It just can't shut down RPC any more. Certain other circumstances can still shut down RPC.
  51 2010-12-13 00:19:32 randyw has left ()
  52 2010-12-13 00:20:08 <davux> there should be a checkbox in the conf "react to kill switch"
  53 2010-12-13 00:20:19 <davux> so that if there's a bug everyone will activate it anyway
  54 2010-12-13 00:20:35 <thrashaholic> that'd defeat the point, i think
  55 2010-12-13 00:20:44 <davux> why?
  56 2010-12-13 00:21:24 <doublec> davux, there's a command line switch "don't react to kill switch"
  57 2010-12-13 00:21:27 <thrashaholic> well it'd be a race against time, and if you have to first learn about this exploit, and then enable the kill switch, chances are you're vulnerable
  58 2010-12-13 00:21:52 <doublec> better to explicitly say "I want to be exploited" than to find all your money gone.
  59 2010-12-13 00:22:16 <davux> so a command line is great,indeed
  60 2010-12-13 00:22:37 <davux> but it should be "react to kill switch"
  61 2010-12-13 00:22:43 <thrashaholic> obviously you want that feature, but i wouldn't personally run with it disabled without a good reason
  62 2010-12-13 00:23:05 <davux> so if there's a bug, next time you start the program you do it with the switch
  63 2010-12-13 00:23:17 <thrashaholic> why...just dont run it
  64 2010-12-13 00:23:19 <thrashaholic> or update it
  65 2010-12-13 00:23:36 <thrashaholic> the point of the switch is so satoshi can mitigate damage without end user action
  66 2010-12-13 00:23:57 <davux> i'm just uncomfortable with the idea that a person nobody knows can decide to kill the whole thing and disappear
  67 2010-12-13 00:24:06 <doublec> although if the exploit is bad enough to need use of the switch, it's probably to late by the time satoshi uses it anyway
  68 2010-12-13 00:24:07 <thrashaholic> just the rpc commands
  69 2010-12-13 00:24:48 Grantt has joined
  70 2010-12-13 00:24:51 <doublec> davux, the description of the feature is here: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=941.msg11439#msg11439
  71 2010-12-13 00:24:54 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
  72 2010-12-13 00:24:55 <bitbot> Version 0.3.11 with upgrade alerts : satoshi: Version 0.3.11 is now available.  Changes: - Some blk*.dat checking on load - Built the -4way code with -march=amdfam10, which makes it a little faster - Warning if your clock is too far off - Warnings/errors/alerts can also be seen in the getinfo command - Alert system  The alert system can display notifications on the s...
  73 2010-12-13 00:24:58 Grantt is now known as Granttt
  74 2010-12-13 00:25:02 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
  75 2010-12-13 00:25:02 Granttt has joined
  76 2010-12-13 00:25:47 <theymos> The purpose of safe mode was to shut down sites like MtGox so they can't be exploited during a bug. If they still want protection, they can shut themselves down whenever an alert is in effect (the alert is listed in getinfo).
  77 2010-12-13 00:26:09 <thrashaholic> exacttly
  78 2010-12-13 00:26:57 <davux> ok i see
  79 2010-12-13 00:27:22 <davux> i thought the signal could sabotage your wallet or something
  80 2010-12-13 00:27:31 <davux> like a one-way thing
  81 2010-12-13 00:28:15 <theymos> Nothing like that would make it into the code.
  82 2010-12-13 00:29:42 <doublec> ugh, pool server stuck again
  83 2010-12-13 00:31:09 darrob has joined
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  86 2010-12-13 00:36:08 akem has joined
  87 2010-12-13 00:38:08 <phuzion> ;;bc,calc 4318
  88 2010-12-13 00:38:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4318 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 20 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, 11 minutes, and 20 seconds
  89 2010-12-13 00:40:55 <jchysk> if you have multiple computers running bitcoin can you put the same wallet.dat on them?
  90 2010-12-13 00:41:10 <bencoder> no
  91 2010-12-13 00:41:35 <bencoder> just send the coins from one to the other if/when they get generated
  92 2010-12-13 00:41:49 <jchysk> ok
  93 2010-12-13 00:41:51 <jchysk> thanks
  94 2010-12-13 00:47:57 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  95 2010-12-13 00:51:42 <[Noodles]> you can however run mutliple "miners" on different computers, all connecting to one bitcoin-client/bitcoind
  96 2010-12-13 00:53:47 <[Noodles]> with CPUs using jgarzik's miner -> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.0 , with GPUs you use poclbm, or Diablo's anyway, works with those too
  97 2010-12-13 00:53:49 <bitbot> New demonstration CPU miner available
  98 2010-12-13 00:53:55 kabo69 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  99 2010-12-13 01:02:25 <altamic> ah instant satisfaction, pushing on heroku bitcoin slides I'm working on
 100 2010-12-13 01:03:01 <Kiba> altamic: yeah, heroku rocks!
 101 2010-12-13 01:03:23 <altamic> http://kiba:bitcoinrulez@bitcoin-intro.heroku.com
 102 2010-12-13 01:03:55 <altamic> be sure to enter full screen
 103 2010-12-13 01:04:03 <altamic> and it's work in progress
 104 2010-12-13 01:05:38 T_X has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 105 2010-12-13 01:05:42 T_X has joined
 106 2010-12-13 01:10:38 <altamic> 2:10 AM here time to sleep
 107 2010-12-13 01:10:46 <altamic> bye
 108 2010-12-13 01:13:05 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
 109 2010-12-13 01:14:05 Diablo-D3 has joined
 110 2010-12-13 01:14:12 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 111 2010-12-13 01:15:38 <joe_1> the slide show neesds more pretty pictures
 112 2010-12-13 01:15:39 darrob has joined
 113 2010-12-13 01:18:35 <Kiba> so we got on the front page Hacker News
 114 2010-12-13 01:18:36 <Kiba> Reddit
 115 2010-12-13 01:18:39 <Kiba> and Slashdot
 116 2010-12-13 01:18:42 <Kiba> wee
 117 2010-12-13 01:18:45 <Kiba> the three big geek site
 118 2010-12-13 01:19:50 kabo69 has joined
 119 2010-12-13 01:21:39 andrew12 has joined
 120 2010-12-13 01:21:57 <andrew12> yay for the mining pool. i managed to get 0.07 btc :p
 121 2010-12-13 01:23:26 <Kiba> hmm
 122 2010-12-13 01:24:11 <andrew12> it's interesting that bitcoin says "Generated" for it
 123 2010-12-13 01:26:12 <Kiba> you did generate it!
 124 2010-12-13 01:26:36 <andrew12> yes, but I didn't think that was how it worked
 125 2010-12-13 01:31:28 kabo69 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 126 2010-12-13 01:32:31 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: heh.
 127 2010-12-13 01:32:40 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 128 2010-12-13 01:32:56 <Granttt> interesting comments at these geeky sites
 129 2010-12-13 01:34:13 <Granttt> I'm getting sick of hearing about bitcoins already, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get more sick of hearing about them over the next year or so.  << LOL
 130 2010-12-13 01:35:22 <Kiba> hehe
 131 2010-12-13 01:35:33 <Diablo-D3> Im getting sick of hearing of... well... everything
 132 2010-12-13 01:35:55 <Diablo-D3> I should write a filter that blocks pages that say congress or politics or republicans
 133 2010-12-13 01:37:07 <dissected> Diablo-D3, and upload it to the internet
 134 2010-12-13 01:37:23 <Diablo-D3> but it'd block the site I upload it to, too :<
 135 2010-12-13 01:37:43 <dissected> Diablo-D3, not a bad idea for a firefox extension
 136 2010-12-13 01:38:58 <dissected> Diablo-D3, john boehner was on 60 minutes tonight
 137 2010-12-13 01:39:07 <dissected> I couldn't even finish watching it
 138 2010-12-13 01:41:54 <Kiba> dissected: how about democrats too?
 139 2010-12-13 01:43:02 <dissected> Kiba, okay, but in all fairness, they have never made me cringe in quite the same way
 140 2010-12-13 01:45:31 kabo69 has joined
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 143 2010-12-13 01:51:41 T_X has joined
 144 2010-12-13 01:52:43 <T_X> haha, gribble is sending me private messages :D
 145 2010-12-13 01:52:53 <T_X> which do not really make sense
 146 2010-12-13 01:53:35 zzop has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 147 2010-12-13 01:54:14 <T_X> I had queried gribble for using the bot-commands there in private. and now its always telling me:
 148 2010-12-13 01:54:14 <T_X> Please note that this channel is dead. Join #bitcoin-dev for technical questions and development-related discussion. Join #bitcoin-discussion for everything else.
 149 2010-12-13 01:54:20 <T_X> yeah, this "channel"
 150 2010-12-13 02:04:03 <slush_cz1> Hi, I'm trying to understand comparing of target and hashes_again_. I though that rising difficulty leads to more zeros (in binary form) on the end of 'target', which bitcoin send in getwork. so for current difficulty on testnet and target '.....08124500000000' the hash must have at least 32bits of zeros from right.
 151 2010-12-13 02:04:08 <slush_cz1> Am I completely wrong?
 152 2010-12-13 02:07:03 <ArtForz> no
 153 2010-12-13 02:07:12 <ArtForz> you just read it in wrong byte order
 154 2010-12-13 02:07:32 <ArtForz> hrrrm
 155 2010-12-13 02:07:36 <ArtForz> or maybe not
 156 2010-12-13 02:08:39 <slush_cz1> Hmm, AFAIK this target is already little endian
 157 2010-12-13 02:09:04 <slush_cz1> Satoshi somewhere noted that he transform it for easier handling
 158 2010-12-13 02:09:52 <ArtForz> yeah it is
 159 2010-12-13 02:10:12 <ArtForz> testnet target is 0x00000000451208...
 160 2010-12-13 02:10:15 <slush_cz1> so I'm reading it from right to left, no byte swapping, whatever
 161 2010-12-13 02:11:42 <ArtForz> pretty much
 162 2010-12-13 02:11:56 <slush_cz1> Its probably me and my testing of miner O:-)
 163 2010-12-13 02:12:07 <ArtForz> you read it right to left, little endian DWORDs
 164 2010-12-13 02:12:23 <Diablo-D3> [08:37:47] <dissected> Diablo-D3, john boehner was on 60 minutes tonight
 165 2010-12-13 02:12:23 <Diablo-D3> [08:37:56] <dissected> I couldn't even finish watching it
 166 2010-12-13 02:12:26 <Diablo-D3> I hate boehner
 167 2010-12-13 02:12:45 <ArtForz> so H == 0, G <= 0x45120800
 168 2010-12-13 02:13:30 <Kiba> who's boehner?
 169 2010-12-13 02:14:04 <slush_cz1> ArtForz: Well, what is wrong in my attitude, with comparing bit zeros?
 170 2010-12-13 02:14:24 <ArtForz> it's not simply counting 0 bits
 171 2010-12-13 02:14:41 <ArtForz> it's actually converting hash result to a 256 bit value and comparing for <= target
 172 2010-12-13 02:15:19 <ArtForz> miners usually don't bother with lower words in the inner loop, lookuing only for H == 0
 173 2010-12-13 02:15:41 <slush_cz1> Yes, I know. I don't need to make it exact. I'm doing the same like the miners
 174 2010-12-13 02:15:42 <ArtForz> so we only have to do the full conversion and compare for 1 in 2**32 hashes
 175 2010-12-13 02:16:19 <slush_cz1> Just with variable bit count
 176 2010-12-13 02:16:31 <ArtForz> sounds slow
 177 2010-12-13 02:16:59 <slush_cz1> 1. get it work 2. optimize ;)
 178 2010-12-13 02:17:01 <jgarzik> if (cheap_check() && expensive_check()) { stop hashing }
 179 2010-12-13 02:18:23 <slush_cz1> To be honest, I have big troubles in working with so large numbers in python. Checking zeros is much easier to me. And it _almost_ works.
 180 2010-12-13 02:19:54 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: one of the supreme dicks of the republican party
 181 2010-12-13 02:20:09 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: hes a guy that doesnt even bother covering up that hes a lying, cheating, stealing, total asshole
 182 2010-12-13 02:20:19 <jgarzik> slush_cz1: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.msg27307#msg27307
 183 2010-12-13 02:20:26 <bitbot> New demonstration CPU miner available : lfm: note if you wanted to do a full difficulty test rather than returning the preliminary "proof of work" to the server, its not hard, I think this would work:  <div class="codeheader">Code:</div><div class="code">/* do full difficulty test of hash */  #define OFF 75  int fulltest(void * block, void *hash) {   unsigned ch...
 184 2010-12-13 02:20:36 <ArtForz> having a problem working with large numbers in python?
 185 2010-12-13 02:20:47 <slush_cz1> In testing phase I found a situation, that my internal target is '33 bits of zeros'. I'm a little bit surprised that I found hash with 33 bites of zeros, current testnet target has 32 zeros and it does not trigger 'block found'.
 186 2010-12-13 02:21:10 <ArtForz> current terstnet target has quite a bit more zeros
 187 2010-12-13 02:21:27 <ArtForz> nm
 188 2010-12-13 02:21:36 <ArtForz> 33 zeros it is
 189 2010-12-13 02:22:05 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it went back down?
 190 2010-12-13 02:22:47 <ArtForz> testnet diff? I think so
 191 2010-12-13 02:22:53 <Diablo-D3> it used to be 10.x
 192 2010-12-13 02:23:06 <slush_cz1> ArtForz: Should be this hash valid in current testnet? 4314939ea460b98b74e796e694bc1e58fb4f91247e58b9b39984b07800000000
 193 2010-12-13 02:23:14 <slush_cz1> ArtForz: BTW, thanks a lot for your help
 194 2010-12-13 02:23:41 <slush_cz1> ArtForz:But  I'm not sure if bitcoin donation is what you really need :-D
 195 2010-12-13 02:24:23 <ArtForz> I'd say no
 196 2010-12-13 02:25:03 <ArtForz> 0x0000000078b08499 > 0x0000000045120800
 197 2010-12-13 02:25:03 engla has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 198 2010-12-13 02:31:38 <slush_cz1> Oh, I think I finally get it
 199 2010-12-13 02:31:50 <slush_cz1> Example is better than 100 words
 200 2010-12-13 02:32:23 MJD has joined
 201 2010-12-13 02:32:53 <MJD> hey all, I was just wondering if there was an easy way to seed a new instance of bitcoin from an existing instance so that it does *not* have to redownload the whole block chain?
 202 2010-12-13 02:34:15 <slush_cz1> Well, I will leave my algo as is, because I'm currently sending always targets in form ....ffff00000 . So it will work until internal targets and bitcoin targets will not be near. Which will definitely not.
 203 2010-12-13 02:34:15 <slush_cz1> In next version, I will make full target comparing, as you all tell me.
 204 2010-12-13 02:35:50 <slush_cz1> jgarzik: forgot to thank you for link to example.
 205 2010-12-13 02:41:33 bd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 206 2010-12-13 02:54:18 gavinandresen has left ()
 207 2010-12-13 02:56:14 <Kiba> does any bitcoiner here knows how to use tahoe-lafs?
 208 2010-12-13 03:03:33 bd_ has joined
 209 2010-12-13 03:04:04 noagendamarket has joined
 210 2010-12-13 03:04:20 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
 211 2010-12-13 03:04:20 noagendamarket has joined
 212 2010-12-13 03:12:02 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: hello?
 213 2010-12-13 03:13:49 bd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 214 2010-12-13 03:14:43 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 215 2010-12-13 03:16:33 <slush_cz1> MT`AwAy: yep
 216 2010-12-13 03:17:36 <slush_cz1> MT`AwAy: do you meet any problem?
 217 2010-12-13 03:18:57 <nanotube> MJD: sure, just copy over the blk0001.dat file
 218 2010-12-13 03:19:11 <nanotube> T_X: it must be from your joins to #bitcoin...
 219 2010-12-13 03:19:19 <jgarzik> nanotube: and blkindex
 220 2010-12-13 03:19:33 <nanotube> jgarzik: client can regenerate the index on its own, though, no?
 221 2010-12-13 03:19:37 zzop has joined
 222 2010-12-13 03:19:54 <jgarzik> nanotube: not automatically, no.  that's why I wrote http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-initblocks
 223 2010-12-13 03:19:56 bd_ has joined
 224 2010-12-13 03:20:02 <nanotube> jgarzik: aah heh ok
 225 2010-12-13 03:28:01 paul0 has joined
 226 2010-12-13 03:32:09 grondilu has joined
 227 2010-12-13 03:32:27 <MJD> nanotube: K, thanks!
 228 2010-12-13 03:32:52 <MJD> and jgarzik!
 229 2010-12-13 03:33:23 <jgarzik> MJD: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/blocks-linux-64bit.tar.bz2 is around 94,000 blocks
 230 2010-12-13 03:33:34 <jgarzik> and works on 32-bit Windows and 32-bit Linux
 231 2010-12-13 03:35:41 <MJD> Its ok now, I was just starting a new client and had two others already running.  As I may start a few more later, I just wanted to know if I could transfer some  files to easily seed them to avoid the wait as they download the list.
 232 2010-12-13 03:35:44 kisom_dev has joined
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 235 2010-12-13 03:40:20 <Phoebus> Hello everyone, brilliant concept. I'm going through the faq and part of the paper. Pretty excited about this, but also a bit puzzled about some of the math.
 236 2010-12-13 03:40:32 <aksez> yea me 2
 237 2010-12-13 03:40:47 <noagendamarket> Hello
 238 2010-12-13 03:40:59 <Phoebus> Logged channel, nice going to read up on some of the logs.
 239 2010-12-13 03:41:07 <noagendamarket> where did you hear about it?
 240 2010-12-13 03:41:24 <Phoebus> Slashdot, on the thread about wikileaks and maybe using bc.
 241 2010-12-13 03:41:39 <Phoebus> Then went on to read more, and the faq, and in the process of reading the paper.
 242 2010-12-13 03:42:52 <noagendamarket> Last time bitcoin got slashdotted the price went from .06 to .50 lol
 243 2010-12-13 03:43:00 <Kiba> noagendamarket: not really
 244 2010-12-13 03:43:05 <noagendamarket> its calmed down a bit since then
 245 2010-12-13 03:43:15 <Kiba> more like 5 months?
 246 2010-12-13 03:43:22 <noagendamarket> the speculators got involved
 247 2010-12-13 03:43:27 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, haha, I wish I knew what that actually meant.... thank you for making me feel like the newbie I am :P
 248 2010-12-13 03:43:44 <noagendamarket> haha well its the bitcoin rate
 249 2010-12-13 03:43:46 <Phoebus> C++ based, nice, I need practice there.
 250 2010-12-13 03:43:48 <Kiba> we have only one viable currency exchange market and that is mtgox
 251 2010-12-13 03:43:58 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, yeah but I have no idea rate in relation to what?
 252 2010-12-13 03:44:00 <Phoebus> USD?
 253 2010-12-13 03:44:02 <Phoebus> Euros?
 254 2010-12-13 03:44:06 * Kiba is itching to do something about it
 255 2010-12-13 03:44:10 <noagendamarket> us
 256 2010-12-13 03:44:17 <Phoebus> Ah, ok, cheers.
 257 2010-12-13 03:44:34 <aksez> can i ask what is the blue canary about?
 258 2010-12-13 03:44:34 <noagendamarket> no worries.
 259 2010-12-13 03:44:46 <noagendamarket> I dont know
 260 2010-12-13 03:44:51 <Phoebus> I just installed the client, and the new newbie question is, how do you maintain the same account from multiple computers?
 261 2010-12-13 03:45:00 <Phoebus> Can I use dropbox or wuala to share the same wallet across?
 262 2010-12-13 03:45:06 <noagendamarket> Its your wallet.dat
 263 2010-12-13 03:45:06 <Phoebus> I prefer wuala though, high encryption.
 264 2010-12-13 03:45:12 <Phoebus> Cool.
 265 2010-12-13 03:45:18 <Phoebus> I could hack it together easily then.
 266 2010-12-13 03:45:23 <noagendamarket> in appdata
 267 2010-12-13 03:45:32 <Phoebus> Yeah. I remember from FAQ, cheers.
 268 2010-12-13 03:46:03 <noagendamarket> Just keep your wallet file safe lol
 269 2010-12-13 03:46:15 <Phoebus> Yeah, I get that, I'm not that new.
 270 2010-12-13 03:46:22 <Phoebus> I'm new to this system, not to computing :P
 271 2010-12-13 03:46:26 <Phoebus> But thank you for the concern.
 272 2010-12-13 03:46:27 <noagendamarket> :)
 273 2010-12-13 03:46:44 waves281 has joined
 274 2010-12-13 03:46:50 <noagendamarket> actually I think encrypted wallets are oon the way
 275 2010-12-13 03:47:01 <Phoebus> Yeah, read that on the faq too.
 276 2010-12-13 03:47:05 <Kiba> from the official client?
 277 2010-12-13 03:47:12 <noagendamarket> I think so
 278 2010-12-13 03:47:14 <Phoebus> Don't be surprised, I know most people don't read :P
 279 2010-12-13 03:47:39 lolcat has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 280 2010-12-13 03:47:40 <Phoebus> The reason I'm so excited is that I was thinking of making a website doing something similar.
 281 2010-12-13 03:47:46 <Phoebus> Then I ran into the cosmos project.
 282 2010-12-13 03:47:51 <Phoebus> And then considered using that...
 283 2010-12-13 03:47:59 <Phoebus> And now I ran into bc, and considering this instead.
 284 2010-12-13 03:48:03 <noagendamarket> have you seen tahoe lafs?
 285 2010-12-13 03:48:11 <Phoebus> Now, wazzat?
 286 2010-12-13 03:48:11 <noagendamarket> thats a good choice for backing up
 287 2010-12-13 03:48:24 <Kiba> noagendamarket: no it's not.
 288 2010-12-13 03:48:39 <Phoebus> I prefer encrypted storage for backing up.
 289 2010-12-13 03:48:40 <noagendamarket> it would be if I could get it installed
 290 2010-12-13 03:48:45 <noagendamarket> :)-
 291 2010-12-13 03:48:47 <Phoebus> Like truecrypt.
 292 2010-12-13 03:48:51 <Kiba> percisely
 293 2010-12-13 03:49:06 <Kiba> I think tahoe lafs does distributed encrypted sharing stuff
 294 2010-12-13 03:49:18 <Phoebus> Sounds like wuala's design.
 295 2010-12-13 03:49:46 <Kiba> if I could get it working, I will be offering a bounty
 296 2010-12-13 03:49:55 <Phoebus> Sign up for wuala through this and I'll love you long time? http://www.wuala.com/referral/4JPGBGFJNM563AANNJBN
 297 2010-12-13 03:49:58 <Kiba> after all, why offer space to somebody?
 298 2010-12-13 03:50:10 <Phoebus> Kiba, they use a bitorrent mixed protocol.
 299 2010-12-13 03:50:23 <Phoebus> So sharing space on your hdd and some traffic gets you a pro account, and a LOT of online storage.
 300 2010-12-13 03:50:31 * Kiba shrugs
 301 2010-12-13 03:50:37 <Kiba> talking about tahoe
 302 2010-12-13 03:50:39 <Phoebus> Google them, and check out their paper.
 303 2010-12-13 03:50:41 <noagendamarket> yes
 304 2010-12-13 03:50:43 <Phoebus> Oh, tahoe I have no clue.
 305 2010-12-13 03:50:57 <Kiba> are they open source?
 306 2010-12-13 03:51:09 <Phoebus> They are closed source, ran by Lacie.
 307 2010-12-13 03:51:16 * jgarzik updates the kernel's skein hash algorithm
 308 2010-12-13 03:51:16 <Phoebus> But the paper and concept is published.
 309 2010-12-13 03:51:23 <Kiba> naw
 310 2010-12-13 03:51:28 <jgarzik> new rotation constants... how exciting!
 311 2010-12-13 03:51:33 <noagendamarket> tahoe is open source
 312 2010-12-13 03:51:42 <appamatto> I wonder if there will be an incentive to mine once generation ends
 313 2010-12-13 03:51:53 <noagendamarket> transaction fees
 314 2010-12-13 03:52:14 <noagendamarket> will provide the incentive
 315 2010-12-13 03:52:17 <Kiba> if there are enough usage, there should be some transaction fee
 316 2010-12-13 03:52:55 <Phoebus> Reading up on tahoe, interesting.
 317 2010-12-13 03:53:00 <jgarzik> tahoe will be interesting once bitcoins are integrated
 318 2010-12-13 03:53:06 <Kiba> yes
 319 2010-12-13 03:53:11 <appamatto> Hmm, I guess it's possible that transaction fees could rise
 320 2010-12-13 03:53:13 <Kiba> no incentive to provide HD space
 321 2010-12-13 03:53:17 <jgarzik> a truly decentralized, pay-for-storage service is still needed, as of today.
 322 2010-12-13 03:53:29 <jgarzik> (and no, block chain isn't it :))
 323 2010-12-13 03:53:30 <Phoebus> Wuala uses a similar approach but also gives incentive: online space.
 324 2010-12-13 03:53:45 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
 325 2010-12-13 03:53:51 <Kiba> I trust oepn source more than I trust proprietary software
 326 2010-12-13 03:54:04 <Phoebus> Depends.
 327 2010-12-13 03:54:11 <Phoebus> But I hear you.
 328 2010-12-13 03:54:33 <jgarzik> not decentralized, if it's closed source.
 329 2010-12-13 03:54:49 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 230000
 330 2010-12-13 03:54:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 230000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 15 hours, 33 minutes, and 11 seconds
 331 2010-12-13 03:55:10 <Phoebus> No, wuala uses servers plus everyone that joins in on the bitorrent-like local shares.
 332 2010-12-13 03:55:49 <Kiba> now if I can get zooko to help diagnois my problem...
 333 2010-12-13 03:55:53 <appamatto> ;;bc,calc 56000
 334 2010-12-13 03:55:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 56000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 week, 3 days, 21 hours, 1 minute, and 20 seconds
 335 2010-12-13 03:56:01 <Kiba> does anybody know how to use this thing called tahoe?
 336 2010-12-13 03:56:52 <noagendamarket> I stored something opn the test site lol
 337 2010-12-13 03:57:18 <noagendamarket> Once it integrates bitcoin it would be a killer app
 338 2010-12-13 03:57:32 <Phoebus> I get so giddy about open source development sometimes, this is one of those times. <3
 339 2010-12-13 03:57:44 <jgarzik> appamatto: the value of bitcoins will raise, making transaction fees "cost" more
 340 2010-12-13 03:57:46 <Phoebus> Computer scientists re-designing the world, 2.0. >.<
 341 2010-12-13 03:58:07 <Kiba> you can't have normal computer scientists wiht boring political beliefs
 342 2010-12-13 03:58:13 <jgarzik> appamatto: when 100 million people use bitcoin, and there are only 21 million BTC in existence, 0.01 BTC is worth a lot
 343 2010-12-13 03:58:18 <Kiba> they won't change the world
 344 2010-12-13 03:58:27 <Phoebus> Kiba, yeah, true, but there are some no?
 345 2010-12-13 03:58:41 <Kiba> bitcoin is some subversive stuff
 346 2010-12-13 03:59:00 <noagendamarket> If it threatens the banks the real leather will hit the road
 347 2010-12-13 03:59:08 <Kiba> capitalism?
 348 2010-12-13 03:59:09 <Phoebus> The question begged, is when will bitcoin be hacked, and how :P But I don't know enough about the system yet.
 349 2010-12-13 03:59:16 <Kiba> you can't kill capitalism!
 350 2010-12-13 03:59:23 <noagendamarket> can you hack sha 256?
 351 2010-12-13 03:59:24 <jgarzik> few things threaten banks that they cannot co-opt
 352 2010-12-13 03:59:27 <Kiba> we will thrive and multiply, baby!
 353 2010-12-13 03:59:38 <Phoebus> I hear you can hack SHA, don't know about 2566666.
 354 2010-12-13 03:59:50 <Phoebus> Whoops, sorry sticky keyb :P
 355 2010-12-13 03:59:52 <noagendamarket> I feel safer using bitcoin than logging into internet banking lol
 356 2010-12-13 03:59:57 <Kiba> laughter
 357 2010-12-13 04:00:00 <Kiba> violent opposition
 358 2010-12-13 04:00:02 <Kiba> acceptance
 359 2010-12-13 04:00:16 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, my ebank has some pretty good security. To transfer any cash you can only do that with an RSA key.
 360 2010-12-13 04:00:20 <noagendamarket> first they laugh at you then they fight you then you win!
 361 2010-12-13 04:00:35 <Phoebus> ^
 362 2010-12-13 04:00:35 <Kiba> doesn't it start with ignoring
 363 2010-12-13 04:00:40 <Phoebus> Yeah.
 364 2010-12-13 04:00:44 <Phoebus> So ghandi, but true.
 365 2010-12-13 04:00:46 <noagendamarket> yea it does
 366 2010-12-13 04:01:28 <Xunie> ;;bc,stat
 367 2010-12-13 04:01:29 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
 368 2010-12-13 04:01:32 <Xunie> ;;bc,help
 369 2010-12-13 04:01:32 <noagendamarket> If someone shows up asking you to buy drugs or child porn with bitcoin most likely thats the feds lol
 370 2010-12-13 04:01:32 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
 371 2010-12-13 04:01:40 <Xunie> ;;bc,stats
 372 2010-12-13 04:01:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97297 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1486 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 36 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13944.21459322
 373 2010-12-13 04:05:18 slush_cz1 has left ()
 374 2010-12-13 04:09:39 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
 375 2010-12-13 04:14:33 <Phoebus> So, if this really works we can bypass banks altogether, for good.
 376 2010-12-13 04:15:21 <Kiba> naw, we're bypassing fat cat banks
 377 2010-12-13 04:15:50 <Kiba> bankers can have economic functions, but they fat catting themsleves to uselessness
 378 2010-12-13 04:16:13 <Phoebus> Kiba, do you think banks like bnp paribas could get on board and use the system?
 379 2010-12-13 04:16:20 <Phoebus> Yeah, agreed.
 380 2010-12-13 04:16:31 <Kiba> who are they?
 381 2010-12-13 04:16:35 <Phoebus> I don't agree with someone leeching, appearing as a contributor, get rich - while contributing nothing.
 382 2010-12-13 04:16:40 <Phoebus> http://www.forachangingworld.com/
 383 2010-12-13 04:17:28 <Phoebus> Also I'd like to see kiva.org get on this.
 384 2010-12-13 04:17:31 <Kiba> meh, don't know what the site is about
 385 2010-12-13 04:18:41 <jgarzik> Phoebus: bitcoin economy (US$1 million) is too small for a Big Bank to get interested right now, IMO
 386 2010-12-13 04:19:18 <Phoebus> I see, what are the stats of users? As in, where are most BC users located?
 387 2010-12-13 04:19:36 <Kiba> all over the world, mostly western civilization
 388 2010-12-13 04:19:51 <Phoebus> ok
 389 2010-12-13 04:19:53 <Kiba> some Japanese are getting a bit excited about it but nothing much
 390 2010-12-13 04:20:12 <noagendamarket> theres lots of russians
 391 2010-12-13 04:20:22 <jgarzik> lots of russians and americans
 392 2010-12-13 04:20:22 <noagendamarket> i wonder why lol
 393 2010-12-13 04:20:24 <Kiba> yeah, the Russians even have their own forum
 394 2010-12-13 04:20:32 <noagendamarket> and exchange
 395 2010-12-13 04:20:38 <Kiba> indeed
 396 2010-12-13 04:20:46 <Phoebus> Nice.
 397 2010-12-13 04:21:01 <Phoebus> Well, I'm from Greece originally but live in Canada.
 398 2010-12-13 04:21:15 <noagendamarket> hey the madhatter is in canada
 399 2010-12-13 04:21:17 <Phoebus> I was thinking of using Cosmos in a smaller community to safeguard against poverty etc.
 400 2010-12-13 04:21:19 <Kiba> Greece..hmm
 401 2010-12-13 04:21:27 <noagendamarket> he operates bitcoin 4 cash
 402 2010-12-13 04:21:30 <Phoebus> Are you familiar with the cosmos project?
 403 2010-12-13 04:21:32 <Kiba> the way to end poverty is to increase trade...
 404 2010-12-13 04:21:39 <Phoebus> Yeah, exactly.
 405 2010-12-13 04:21:58 <Kiba> we have almost no interdependence with Africa...
 406 2010-12-13 04:22:34 <noagendamarket> we have lots with china
 407 2010-12-13 04:22:51 <Kiba> yeah
 408 2010-12-13 04:22:58 <noagendamarket> china is taking over africa
 409 2010-12-13 04:23:00 <Kiba> our peace is dependent on interdepdence with China
 410 2010-12-13 04:23:06 <Kiba> noagendamarket: sound like imperalism.
 411 2010-12-13 04:23:13 <noagendamarket> yes
 412 2010-12-13 04:24:40 <Kiba> but ya know, wealthy naive American are giving away lot of wasted money
 413 2010-12-13 04:24:58 <Phoebus> All this time I mentioned cosmos, I meant cyclos: http://project.cyclos.org/
 414 2010-12-13 04:25:12 <Phoebus> It's also an open source project, runs off its own units.
 415 2010-12-13 04:25:21 <Phoebus> They use it in brazil, the devs are from there.
 416 2010-12-13 04:25:22 <Kiba> LETS?
 417 2010-12-13 04:25:29 <Phoebus> Yeah, it's like a LETS.
 418 2010-12-13 04:25:37 <Kiba> well, we had a big debate with it
 419 2010-12-13 04:25:44 <Kiba> the proponent of it then left
 420 2010-12-13 04:25:47 <Phoebus> How did the debate go?
 421 2010-12-13 04:25:53 <Kiba> and then called bitcoin a pyramid scheme
 422 2010-12-13 04:26:04 <Phoebus> Hmm...
 423 2010-12-13 04:26:18 <Kiba> let just say, we basically ripped on the idea
 424 2010-12-13 04:26:33 <Phoebus> Haha, I bet, but I like their implementations.
 425 2010-12-13 04:26:43 <Phoebus> So I wonder if we can use something like that, but base it on BC.
 426 2010-12-13 04:26:55 <Phoebus> To make end-applications easier for communities.
 427 2010-12-13 04:26:57 <Kiba> bitcoin aren't socialists..we're crazy capialists
 428 2010-12-13 04:27:10 <Kiba> bitcoiners
 429 2010-12-13 04:27:13 <Phoebus> Uhuh, it's just a medium.
 430 2010-12-13 04:27:33 <Kiba> bitcoiners..
 431 2010-12-13 04:27:35 <Phoebus> That's somewhat black and white thinking.
 432 2010-12-13 04:27:39 <Kiba> most bitcoiners are market anarchists
 433 2010-12-13 04:28:04 * OneFixt isn't sure if we can say "most" as there hasn't been a poll
 434 2010-12-13 04:28:06 <Phoebus> Whatever, politicization the question is, does it work -- and if so, how to make it easier to build on it/use it.
 435 2010-12-13 04:28:11 <Kiba> there had been.
 436 2010-12-13 04:28:31 <Kiba> 40% who voted are market anarchists
 437 2010-12-13 04:28:32 <Phoebus> I refuse to use any label, I'm much more fluid than that.
 438 2010-12-13 04:28:45 <Phoebus> Anarchists does not mean capitalists.
 439 2010-12-13 04:28:45 <Kiba> fluid or not, I don't care. I care about what is right and wrong.
 440 2010-12-13 04:28:52 <Kiba> I said.. market anarchists
 441 2010-12-13 04:28:52 <Phoebus> I think we have a label mess going on.
 442 2010-12-13 04:29:23 <Phoebus> I don't see any meaning so far, in labeling stuff. What's the content?
 443 2010-12-13 04:29:35 <Phoebus> Let's talk about the content and concepts.
 444 2010-12-13 04:29:35 <Kiba> labels are useful.
 445 2010-12-13 04:29:43 <Kiba> they describe things.
 446 2010-12-13 04:29:46 <Phoebus> Yeah, when they come in and with context.
 447 2010-12-13 04:29:52 <Phoebus> Also, with purpose, and direction :P
 448 2010-12-13 04:30:04 <Phoebus> Often, they're just as useless as no labels.
 449 2010-12-13 04:30:07 <Kiba> Phoebus: go read anarcho-capitalism
 450 2010-12-13 04:30:10 <Phoebus> And as confusing, as no language.
 451 2010-12-13 04:30:18 <Phoebus> Right, that's what I wanted to do today.
 452 2010-12-13 04:30:27 <Phoebus> I may at some point.
 453 2010-12-13 04:30:35 <Phoebus> But right now I'll read about bc and applications.
 454 2010-12-13 04:31:15 <Kiba> regardless, there's a political motivation...
 455 2010-12-13 04:31:17 <zzop> Would a bitcoin-supporting auction site be useful at this point, or are there probably not enough people using it to make it worthwhile?
 456 2010-12-13 04:31:25 <Kiba> Satoshi didn't just create it...for nothing
 457 2010-12-13 04:31:30 <Kiba> biddingpond, zzop
 458 2010-12-13 04:31:34 <Kiba> biddingpond.com
 459 2010-12-13 04:31:36 <zzop> Ah!
 460 2010-12-13 04:31:39 <zzop> Cheers Kiba
 461 2010-12-13 04:31:50 <Phoebus> Kiba, sure, but I'm more interested in the ideas themselves, than just throwing labels around.
 462 2010-12-13 04:32:03 <Phoebus> In any case, you have to define your terms.
 463 2010-12-13 04:32:08 <Kiba> blah, blah, blah.
 464 2010-12-13 04:32:11 <Phoebus> Can't assume your use of a label equates.
 465 2010-12-13 04:32:17 <Phoebus> If you actually care about communicating :P
 466 2010-12-13 04:32:27 <Kiba> you wallows about labels...
 467 2010-12-13 04:32:43 <Phoebus> I wallow about content, and avoiding vagueness.
 468 2010-12-13 04:32:55 <Kiba> you wallow about nothingness
 469 2010-12-13 04:33:05 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, I like your "no agenda market" avatar.
 470 2010-12-13 04:33:41 <Phoebus> Kiba, Americans - often, headstrong and non-collaborative.
 471 2010-12-13 04:33:49 <Phoebus> What can we do, eh? :P
 472 2010-12-13 04:34:10 <Phoebus> Talking at people, not with people - not as beneficial, in my opinion at least.
 473 2010-12-13 04:34:18 * Kiba shrugs.
 474 2010-12-13 04:34:27 <nanotube> Kiba: Phoebus: maybe take the social order discussion over to #bitcoin-discussion or something. :)
 475 2010-12-13 04:34:34 <Kiba> you could at least ask some question about what anarcho-capitalism is
 476 2010-12-13 04:35:09 <Phoebus> Topic eluded me, nanotube - as per " All related discussions are welcome." But thank you for the clarification.
 477 2010-12-13 04:35:19 <Kiba> no, it's fine
 478 2010-12-13 04:35:26 <Kiba> we need socialization every once in a while
 479 2010-12-13 04:35:56 <nanotube> Phoebus: yea it's fine... just gets a little floody sometimes heh :)
 480 2010-12-13 04:35:58 * Zarutian notices someone consolidating btc from eir miners in http://blockexplorer.com/tx/a5399081ce5da0d489d1faa85bdbe185ae053d8405bd5901645de8aefddcae84
 481 2010-12-13 04:36:00 <Phoebus> Well, it is a dev channel, so we can stick to technical.
 482 2010-12-13 04:36:15 <Phoebus> Anyway, my interest died for the evening, at least for now.
 483 2010-12-13 04:36:20 <Kiba> #bitcoin-dev is actually mostly a catch all thing, rather than a development channel
 484 2010-12-13 04:36:21 <Phoebus> So I'll just surf the forums for a bit anyway.
 485 2010-12-13 04:36:39 <nanotube> Zarutian: hehe quite a bit of gen there, nice
 486 2010-12-13 04:37:57 <ColonelPanic1> is it impossible to gen blocks yet?
 487 2010-12-13 04:38:52 <Kiba> ColonelPanic1: just mean that you have to enter the lottery a million time
 488 2010-12-13 04:38:54 <nanotube> ;;bc,stats
 489 2010-12-13 04:38:56 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97303 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1480 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, 1 minute, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13989.99915308
 490 2010-12-13 04:39:04 <nanotube> ColonelPanic1: nope, still possible, difficulty is not infinity yet. :)
 491 2010-12-13 04:39:22 <ColonelPanic1> I need to get a working GPU miner again, just way too busy
 492 2010-12-13 04:39:57 <Kiba> sucky stuffy nose
 493 2010-12-13 04:40:22 * Zarutian wonders what happens if a btc miner is run on a zeno computer
 494 2010-12-13 04:40:36 mwally has joined
 495 2010-12-13 04:44:35 <mwally> Hello everyone.  I've read some news about BitCoin today, and I wanted to express my optimism.
 496 2010-12-13 04:45:48 <Phoebus> Hey mwally, welcome - and I'm in your shoes. Almost as giddy - until recently :P
 497 2010-12-13 04:46:26 <mwally> What happened recently?
 498 2010-12-13 04:47:16 <Phoebus> Ah, nothing serious. Keep being giddy :P
 499 2010-12-13 04:59:26 <zzop> ;;bc,calc 23
 500 2010-12-13 04:59:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 23 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 72 years, 28 weeks, 4 days, 12 hours, 28 minutes, and 6 seconds
 501 2010-12-13 04:59:32 <zzop> SWEET
 502 2010-12-13 04:59:55 <zzop> My accelerated Amiga 1200 knows the power.
 503 2010-12-13 05:00:04 <nanotube> haha
 504 2010-12-13 05:00:12 <Phoebus> zzop, what sort of measurement is Khps?
 505 2010-12-13 05:00:22 <Phoebus> Haha, I used an amiga A1200.
 506 2010-12-13 05:00:26 <zzop> Phoebus: I wish I understood it better. :-)
 507 2010-12-13 05:00:28 <nanotube> Phoebus: kilo hash per second
 508 2010-12-13 05:00:30 <Phoebus> For scala scripts mostlu.
 509 2010-12-13 05:00:36 <Phoebus> nanotube, cheers :)
 510 2010-12-13 05:00:42 <nanotube> :)
 511 2010-12-13 05:00:53 <Phoebus> *mostly, and basic graphics. Back in.. uhh 94-96 at a tv station.
 512 2010-12-13 05:01:02 <Phoebus> Good times, I liked the OS compared to the then windows.
 513 2010-12-13 05:01:02 <zzop> Phoebus: Great computers.
 514 2010-12-13 05:01:11 <Phoebus> zzop, agreed, too bad they didn't keep at it.
 515 2010-12-13 05:01:20 <Phoebus> I hear they went on vacation and enjoyed world trips :P
 516 2010-12-13 05:01:30 <zzop> Phoebus: All things must pass.
 517 2010-12-13 05:01:31 <Phoebus> Which, I suppose is also a good idea.
 518 2010-12-13 05:01:49 <Phoebus> zzop, true, in some way - but I'd rather we optimize than lose productivity.
 519 2010-12-13 05:01:56 <nanotube> zzop: basically, how many thousands of sha256 hashes per second your computer is able to calculate.
 520 2010-12-13 05:02:26 <zzop> Phoebus: It's kind of amazing about this little computer. I mean, it boots in 5 seconds.
 521 2010-12-13 05:02:27 chaord has left ()
 522 2010-12-13 05:02:44 <Phoebus> I remember, wait you use the 1200 today? :P
 523 2010-12-13 05:02:59 <zzop> Phoebus: And the multitasking is often more responsive than most OSes I use now
 524 2010-12-13 05:03:00 <Phoebus> Man, it's so bulky. Like a very fat keyboard, with a disk drive >.<
 525 2010-12-13 05:03:10 <zzop> Phoebus: Nah, I just powered it up recently out of curiosity. ;-)
 526 2010-12-13 05:03:12 <Phoebus> zzop, hilarious, isn't it?
 527 2010-12-13 05:03:18 <Phoebus> haha
 528 2010-12-13 05:03:29 <Phoebus> zzop, I'm going to run amigaOS on vmware some day for fun.
 529 2010-12-13 05:04:49 <mwally> So, if the circulation of BTC will never exceed 20,999,999.9~, is it expected that the value of the coins will greatly increase as more people adopt the currency?
 530 2010-12-13 05:05:48 <nanotube> mwally: yes
 531 2010-12-13 05:06:00 <nanotube> mwally: /if/ more people adopt the currency :)
 532 2010-12-13 05:07:28 <mwally> I suspect, if the code proves to be fraud-proof, that this will indeed take off, at least amongst a certain element.
 533 2010-12-13 05:07:39 <noagendamarket> lets hope so
 534 2010-12-13 05:08:13 <noagendamarket> it needs some scrutiny by third party security experts
 535 2010-12-13 05:08:16 <Phoebus> I'd invite security people and penn-testers to crack at it non-stop.
 536 2010-12-13 05:08:21 <Phoebus> noagendamarket, haha, exactly.
 537 2010-12-13 05:08:32 <noagendamarket> thats exactly what is needed
 538 2010-12-13 05:08:35 <Phoebus> My hacker-buddy from way back is a professional in it security nowdays, with a masters.
 539 2010-12-13 05:08:41 <Phoebus> I'll send him a pm.
 540 2010-12-13 05:08:42 <noagendamarket> ooh
 541 2010-12-13 05:09:07 <noagendamarket> well thats helpful
 542 2010-12-13 05:09:13 <nanotube> sounds cool, Phoebus
 543 2010-12-13 05:09:36 <Phoebus> Just pmed him on FB, let's see what he says.
 544 2010-12-13 05:10:09 <mwally> With billions of potential users, and less than 20M of available coins, I can see the possibility of these being very valuable.
 545 2010-12-13 05:10:10 <nanotube> and while you are at it.. get off fb and get on diaspora </offtopic> heh
 546 2010-12-13 05:10:19 <nanotube> mwally: that's not a new thought. :D
 547 2010-12-13 05:10:27 da2ce7 has joined
 548 2010-12-13 05:10:37 <Phoebus> nanotube, I'm not sure I want to be on diaspora yet. Sounds like I always have to run a client to do so.
 549 2010-12-13 05:10:41 <mwally> I bet it isn't, but I am very new to the concept, and in awe at the moment. :D~
 550 2010-12-13 05:10:51 <Phoebus> Fb works, I use it as a tool. I may also use diaspora if I don't have to invest too much time into it.
 551 2010-12-13 05:10:55 <nanotube> Phoebus: no, you can join an existing pod.
 552 2010-12-13 05:10:57 <Phoebus> But I like the idea behind diaspora overall.
 553 2010-12-13 05:11:10 <Phoebus> K, low on my todo list, but noted! :)
 554 2010-12-13 05:11:12 <nanotube> you /can/ run your own instance... but you don't /have/ to.
 555 2010-12-13 05:11:19 <Phoebus> I see.
 556 2010-12-13 05:11:20 <da2ce7> G'Day Bitcoiners!
 557 2010-12-13 05:11:36 <nanotube> hey da2ce7 ! :) what brings you here from the forums ? :)
 558 2010-12-13 05:12:28 <da2ce7> ah, had some time on my hands, so decided to dig up mIRC and say hi.
 559 2010-12-13 05:13:40 <nanotube> well, howdy :)
 560 2010-12-13 05:15:12 <noagendamarket> howdy da2ce7
 561 2010-12-13 05:16:55 <Phoebus> nanotube, diaspora is not even open to the public yet, but signed for an invite.
 562 2010-12-13 05:17:05 donpdonp has quit (Quit: leaving)
 563 2010-12-13 05:18:12 donpdonp has joined
 564 2010-12-13 05:19:41 <nanotube> Phoebus: there are many pods other than the official pod that are free to sign up with.
 565 2010-12-13 05:22:40 <Phoebus> I know this is off-topic from this channel, but I still don't really get how diaspora plans to work. I'm not that confident about.. singing up with half the pods I found so far :P
 566 2010-12-13 05:22:48 <Phoebus> I assume, you can see anyone's profile regardless of the pod.
 567 2010-12-13 05:22:56 <Phoebus> But what happens if your pod goes down?
 568 2010-12-13 05:23:18 <mwally> Am I correct in understanding that BitCoin is 100% decentralized, requiring nothing but the clients for full functionality?
 569 2010-12-13 05:23:41 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 570 2010-12-13 05:23:43 Lysacor has joined
 571 2010-12-13 05:25:03 <Phoebus> Nvm the q's asking in their channel instead :P
 572 2010-12-13 05:25:20 <zzop> mwally: It uses IRC to bootstrap, but my understanding is that that's basically correct.
 573 2010-12-13 05:25:36 da2ce7 has quit ()
 574 2010-12-13 05:25:54 <Phoebus> You could easily DDoS the irc server though.
 575 2010-12-13 05:29:09 da2ce7 has joined
 576 2010-12-13 05:30:08 <mwally> I remember reading that the IRC server isn't entirely required, that a list of known nodes is local, and the client can discover the rest once it finds one live one.
 577 2010-12-13 05:30:38 <nanotube> mwally: that is correct
 578 2010-12-13 05:30:47 <noagendamarket> thats correct
 579 2010-12-13 05:34:05 Toadyonps3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 580 2010-12-13 05:36:22 Toadyonps3 has joined
 581 2010-12-13 05:36:38 <nanotube> there's also a list of fallback nodes on the wiki (most are damn fast)
 582 2010-12-13 05:39:38 phuzion has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 583 2010-12-13 05:40:12 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
 584 2010-12-13 05:42:46 Toadyonps3 has quit (Quit: So if a tree falls on Bill Gates in the forest,would anyone really care?)
 585 2010-12-13 05:43:46 Toadyonps3 has joined
 586 2010-12-13 05:58:31 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 587 2010-12-13 06:00:31 <mwally> Does anyone know why the figure 21 million was chosen?
 588 2010-12-13 06:00:50 <nanotube> mwally: not me....
 589 2010-12-13 06:08:12 <MT`AwAy> seems like ECC indeed also pk encryption, which means it would be possible to send someone an encrypted message (in transaction) if you know their uncompressed address
 590 2010-12-13 06:09:04 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: yes ecdsa is asymmetric crypto
 591 2010-12-13 06:09:15 <MT`AwAy> no, ECDSA is signature
 592 2010-12-13 06:09:22 <MT`AwAy> ECIES is asymetric crypto
 593 2010-12-13 06:09:50 <nanotube> signature also requires asymmetric keys
 594 2010-12-13 06:10:13 <MT`AwAy> yes, but cannot do encryption
 595 2010-12-13 06:10:17 <MT`AwAy> for ECDSA
 596 2010-12-13 06:11:10 <MT`AwAy> the goal here would be one day to be able to include a message in the transaction, preferrably encrypted in a way only the receipient can decrypt
 597 2010-12-13 06:11:42 <MT`AwAy> problem is, whoever is sending the message do not know the receipient public key, except if it has been previously used to send coins somewhere
 598 2010-12-13 06:12:11 Toadyonps3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 599 2010-12-13 06:13:55 remmy_ has joined
 600 2010-12-13 06:17:22 <MT`AwAy> good morning world
 601 2010-12-13 06:17:32 <MT`AwAy> it's 15:16 here in Japan and I just woke up
 602 2010-12-13 06:17:47 <MT`AwAy> (and 15 minutes ago I was still in the process of "waking up")
 603 2010-12-13 06:20:02 <Kiba> 3 PM?
 604 2010-12-13 06:24:13 <thrashaholic> must be nice
 605 2010-12-13 06:25:53 Toadyonps3 has joined
 606 2010-12-13 06:31:25 <Phoebus> Anyone using mybitcoin.com? Seems like a nice website/interface. Just fwed to my own address though.
 607 2010-12-13 06:34:34 * Kiba experiments with tahoe
 608 2010-12-13 06:34:43 <Kiba> tahoe-lafs need a lot of work
 609 2010-12-13 06:35:19 Toadyonps3 has quit (Quit: So if a tree falls on Bill Gates in the forest,would anyone really care?)
 610 2010-12-13 06:35:25 Lysacor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 611 2010-12-13 06:36:04 <doublec> Kiba, in what way?
 612 2010-12-13 06:37:13 <Kiba> like, I don't know...improve the efficency
 613 2010-12-13 06:37:24 <Kiba> took like 5 minutes to upload
 614 2010-12-13 06:38:25 <aksez> Are people bitcoining on their iPhones?
 615 2010-12-13 06:38:42 <Kiba> I don't think there's an app on iphone for bitcoin
 616 2010-12-13 06:39:29 <aksez> ok i call it
 617 2010-12-13 06:39:38 <aksez> that means no one else can make it until i do
 618 2010-12-13 06:39:43 <Phoebus> lols
 619 2010-12-13 06:39:56 <Kiba> everybody is free to do whatever they want...
 620 2010-12-13 06:39:58 <Phoebus> Why not make it for android first? You don't need pre-approval by daddy Apple.
 621 2010-12-13 06:40:25 <MT`AwAy> why not make it for both? :D
 622 2010-12-13 06:40:39 <MT`AwAy> stuff like phonegap should be enough
 623 2010-12-13 06:40:40 <Phoebus> He can make it for android, get a crowd, and then make it for the iphone as well.
 624 2010-12-13 06:40:52 <Phoebus> But iphone apps need to apply, and be approved to actually be used.
 625 2010-12-13 06:41:07 <Kiba> If you make an android client for bitcoin, you will get lot of bitcoin
 626 2010-12-13 06:41:18 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: I know, but phonegap allows you to make apps for both using html/js (and you get extra api)
 627 2010-12-13 06:41:34 <aksez> na, i dont use the Andrioid
 628 2010-12-13 06:41:36 <Phoebus> You could do that too, yeah and save the extra step.
 629 2010-12-13 06:41:45 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1812.0
 630 2010-12-13 06:41:53 <bitbot> Android Bitcoin Client Bounty (1740 BTC pledged)
 631 2010-12-13 06:42:01 <Phoebus> ^
 632 2010-12-13 06:42:19 <aksez> i think iPhone to iPhone transfers could be handy
 633 2010-12-13 06:42:44 <Kiba> well, nobody is pledging anything for iphone
 634 2010-12-13 06:42:51 <Kiba> android is more profitable
 635 2010-12-13 06:42:55 <da2ce7> Windows Phone 7 Client :D
 636 2010-12-13 06:42:56 <Phoebus> ifanboiz ftw :P
 637 2010-12-13 06:43:10 <doublec> aksez, I have it running on my N900
 638 2010-12-13 06:43:11 <Kiba> even worse for also-ran window
 639 2010-12-13 06:43:24 <Phoebus> doublec, nice.
 640 2010-12-13 06:43:38 <Phoebus> doublec, how do you sync with your desktop *.dat(s)?
 641 2010-12-13 06:43:52 <doublec> Phoebus, I don't. I run bitcoind on the phone and it has its own wallet.
 642 2010-12-13 06:43:56 <Diablo-D3> Phoebus: he just issues a transaction
 643 2010-12-13 06:43:58 <doublec> Phoebus, I transfer coins to and from my desktop.
 644 2010-12-13 06:44:11 <Phoebus> Ah, ok. So you fill the wallet from the desktop as needed, k.
 645 2010-12-13 06:44:30 <aksez> doublec, no shit, does that thing run linux?
 646 2010-12-13 06:44:38 <doublec> aksez, yes
 647 2010-12-13 06:44:44 * Phoebus imagines himself stuck somewhere and not remembering his wallet hash... :P
 648 2010-12-13 06:45:15 <aksez> doublec, has it come in handy?
 649 2010-12-13 06:46:09 <doublec> aksez, Only as a central place to keep bitcions
 650 2010-12-13 06:46:30 <doublec> aksez, or for when I'm travelling and want to do some btc transactions
 651 2010-12-13 06:46:42 <doublec> aksez, not really useful for buying 'real world' things yet
 652 2010-12-13 06:47:11 <aksez> is there any problem with it using up alot of bandwidth and CPU to get blocks and calc hashes?
 653 2010-12-13 06:47:41 <Phoebus> ^
 654 2010-12-13 06:47:51 <doublec> aksez, only to get the original block chain. That took a long time and I did it over wifi.
 655 2010-12-13 06:47:59 <da2ce7> A phone clients should have it's own wallet, however that wallet should be a subset of your secure desktop wallet.  If you loose your phone, you still can spend your coins from your desktop, however your phone only has your 'lunch money' private keys on it, so when somebody steals it, they can only steal a small ammout of bitcoins.
 656 2010-12-13 06:48:17 <doublec> aksez, since then I run it 24x7 and it's not too bad on battery life and cpu
 657 2010-12-13 06:48:28 <Phoebus> da2ce7, I like that.
 658 2010-12-13 06:48:36 <thrashaholic> da2ce7: if you had a wallet on the phone, that's the best way to do it
 659 2010-12-13 06:48:38 <aksez> neat
 660 2010-12-13 06:48:40 <doublec> aksez, I still easily get a days use out of the phone with bitcoind and various IM programs running
 661 2010-12-13 06:48:50 <thrashaholic> i'd prefer to just use a remote client myself, though.
 662 2010-12-13 06:49:03 <aksez> doublec, sounds like u are a bussy guy
 663 2010-12-13 06:49:21 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: with my bitcoin client if you have the same key in two wallets, spending from one will appear on the other
 664 2010-12-13 06:49:28 <thrashaholic> that bounty is kinda low for the android client too, imho...
 665 2010-12-13 06:49:31 <MT`AwAy> (dunno about official client)
 666 2010-12-13 06:49:32 <Phoebus> How secure are bitcoin clients from local access? How well secured can it be? Protecting a user account in most OS's is near impossible.
 667 2010-12-13 06:49:34 <doublec> aksez, not really. Just most of my phone usage is actually via skype and im rather than cell calls
 668 2010-12-13 06:49:55 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat is 0700 by default
 669 2010-12-13 06:50:03 <MT`AwAy> (for linux/mac)
 670 2010-12-13 06:50:27 <aksez> yea, personally im going to ditch my cellular phone plan next month
 671 2010-12-13 06:50:35 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, yeah but say on windows. There is nothing to stop someone from removing my password hash and using it. So far.
 672 2010-12-13 06:51:07 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: in my qbitcoin client, I'm planning to add private key encryption, so each time you want to make a transaction you'll have to provide a password
 673 2010-12-13 06:51:13 <Phoebus> OS X, and Unix overall has decent account protection, but not great either. So the weakest point so far is the OS user acc itself.
 674 2010-12-13 06:51:24 <MT`AwAy> (ie, someone with your wallet could know how much you have, but not use it)
 675 2010-12-13 06:51:25 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, k good, I like that.
 676 2010-12-13 06:51:28 <thrashaholic> physical access is always the weakest link
 677 2010-12-13 06:51:45 <MT`AwAy> as long as you don't have a keylogger on your computer it should be fine
 678 2010-12-13 06:51:50 KwukDuck has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 679 2010-12-13 06:51:52 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, my ebank requires an RSA key aside my insane passwords to actually do something with the account.
 680 2010-12-13 06:52:08 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, they can steal my user/pass and log in, but it's useless, they'd only be able to look at the accounts.
 681 2010-12-13 06:52:15 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: isn't the private key thing vulnerable to....let say...
 682 2010-12-13 06:52:20 <thrashaholic> that's the exception
 683 2010-12-13 06:52:26 <Kiba> hard drive crash?
 684 2010-12-13 06:52:35 <thrashaholic> 99% of the people in the world don't have RSA fobs for their bank accounts :)
 685 2010-12-13 06:52:39 <Kiba> that what tahoe is for, right?
 686 2010-12-13 06:52:46 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: if the wallet is encrypted, backing it up is a bit less dangerous
 687 2010-12-13 06:52:47 <Phoebus> Hehe, true, that's too bad :P
 688 2010-12-13 06:52:48 <thrashaholic> what bank is that, anyway?
 689 2010-12-13 06:53:06 <Phoebus> Pireaus bank. (Greek)
 690 2010-12-13 06:53:13 <thrashaholic> ah
 691 2010-12-13 06:53:18 <thrashaholic> interesting
 692 2010-12-13 06:53:25 <MT`AwAy> my bank has a RSA "unique id" thingy
 693 2010-12-13 06:53:27 <da2ce7> I use winrar and send an encripted arcihive of my wallet to myself on gmail.
 694 2010-12-13 06:53:30 <Phoebus> I know, we're security freaks back home.
 695 2010-12-13 06:53:38 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, nice
 696 2010-12-13 06:53:48 <MT`AwAy> well, "one time password"
 697 2010-12-13 06:53:54 * MT`AwAy had troubles remembering the english name
 698 2010-12-13 06:53:54 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, which bank?
 699 2010-12-13 06:54:02 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: Japanese bank, name is SMBC
 700 2010-12-13 06:54:09 <MT`AwAy> ( http://www.smbc.co.jp/ )
 701 2010-12-13 06:54:15 <Phoebus> Ah, no I have an RSA key, codes change every couple of minutes.
 702 2010-12-13 06:54:21 <Phoebus> Using a stale code gets you nowhere.
 703 2010-12-13 06:54:26 <MT`AwAy> here it's every 1 minute
 704 2010-12-13 06:54:37 <Phoebus> Yeah, it's about so, actually maybe a bit less.
 705 2010-12-13 06:54:42 <Kiba> how does that work?
 706 2010-12-13 06:54:43 <Phoebus> I'd say that's pretty secure.
 707 2010-12-13 06:54:46 <thrashaholic> a fob or a card?
 708 2010-12-13 06:54:54 <Phoebus> USB key.
 709 2010-12-13 06:55:03 <thrashaholic> so a card in essence
 710 2010-12-13 06:55:04 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: do you know how pseudo random generators work?
 711 2010-12-13 06:55:10 <Phoebus> Yeah.
 712 2010-12-13 06:55:14 <thrashaholic> the RSA + passphrase unlocks your private keys on the usb key
 713 2010-12-13 06:55:23 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: you give a seed (something random) and you get random numbers. If you give the same seed twice, you get the same random numbers twice too
 714 2010-12-13 06:55:27 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, yeah.
 715 2010-12-13 06:55:37 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: the RSA thing works on almost the same concept, except it's way more complex :)
 716 2010-12-13 06:55:44 <thrashaholic> i always wanted to do my whole personal information like that, website passwords and all
 717 2010-12-13 06:55:54 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, that would be awesome.
 718 2010-12-13 06:55:56 <thrashaholic> unfortunately not many sites i use support client certificates hehe
 719 2010-12-13 06:55:58 <Phoebus> Someone needs to offer that.
 720 2010-12-13 06:56:15 <Phoebus> I'd even pay, for one site to manage and secure my accounts.
 721 2010-12-13 06:56:23 <thrashaholic> it wouldn't be too hard, a special firefox extension...things like it exist already - but i don't think anyone's packaged it all together
 722 2010-12-13 06:56:27 <Kiba> most secure bitcoin bank, with 100% reserve banking! NO bank run!
 723 2010-12-13 06:56:27 <MT`AwAy> I implemented client certificates on my site, but it was a pain
 724 2010-12-13 06:56:29 <Phoebus> Fb, gmail, etc, link it all in one, then tie it to RSA.
 725 2010-12-13 06:56:41 <thrashaholic> MT, i've done it too
 726 2010-12-13 06:56:47 <MT`AwAy> it was a pain for MSIE
 727 2010-12-13 06:56:49 <thrashaholic> very satifying in the end, though, but a total pain in the ass
 728 2010-12-13 06:56:51 <MT`AwAy> need to ask the client to install the CA
 729 2010-12-13 06:56:59 <thrashaholic> i no longer support IE for any of my works
 730 2010-12-13 06:57:03 <MT`AwAy> :D
 731 2010-12-13 06:57:05 <MT`AwAy> I wish I could
 732 2010-12-13 06:57:06 <thrashaholic> cause im a jerk
 733 2010-12-13 06:57:09 <Phoebus> thrashaholic, I second that :P
 734 2010-12-13 06:57:15 <Phoebus> But cuz IE sucks bollox.
 735 2010-12-13 06:57:35 <thrashaholic> well, i once was at a talk that doug crockford gave where he essentialy was calling for a new browser war
 736 2010-12-13 06:57:38 <Phoebus> Sometimes I'll script the - use a modern browser. And give them links to FF, Chrome, Opera.
 737 2010-12-13 06:57:38 <aksez> does the usb "key" do the encipherment or is your private key passed on to the OS?
 738 2010-12-13 06:57:40 <thrashaholic> and i took it to heart :)
 739 2010-12-13 06:58:10 <MT`AwAy> aksez: if it's done the right way it's supposed to do the encryption itself
 740 2010-12-13 06:58:13 * Kiba doesn't test IE
 741 2010-12-13 06:58:16 <thrashaholic> luckily im in a position to dictate the useage for 90% of the apps i make
 742 2010-12-13 06:58:23 <Phoebus> Good.
 743 2010-12-13 06:58:31 <aksez> Phoebus, what about using x.509 instead of RSA?
 744 2010-12-13 06:58:32 <thrashaholic> only took me ten years, lol
 745 2010-12-13 06:58:41 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: I'm CEO of my company, but I can't throw customers using MSIE away for now
 746 2010-12-13 06:58:46 * Kiba was an early adopter of Mozilla Firefox
 747 2010-12-13 06:58:51 <Phoebus> aksez, don't know m8.
 748 2010-12-13 06:59:06 <Kiba> before it was even called Firefox
 749 2010-12-13 06:59:14 <thrashaholic> MT - i only support IE 7 + for commercial sites, and even at that, i dont spend three weeks tweaking IE 7 to look 100% pixel perfect
 750 2010-12-13 06:59:14 <Phoebus> Personally I love Opera.
 751 2010-12-13 06:59:21 <Kiba> and I was like....11-12 years old
 752 2010-12-13 06:59:26 <Kiba> in the 4 grade nonetheless
 753 2010-12-13 06:59:35 <Kiba> err
 754 2010-12-13 06:59:38 <thrashaholic> as long as it's usable, i let it go, 8 and 9 are usually fine
 755 2010-12-13 06:59:40 <Phoebus> Used it since 97, but back then as an alternative.
 756 2010-12-13 06:59:44 <Kiba> 6th grade
 757 2010-12-13 06:59:47 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: same here, IE7/8 (sometimes with IE7 emulation)
 758 2010-12-13 07:00:03 <Phoebus> I use IE emulation inside of opera, that's as far as I'll go :P
 759 2010-12-13 07:00:06 <Kiba> 6th or 7th grade
 760 2010-12-13 07:00:12 <thrashaholic> luckily the market share for 6 has dropped a ton
 761 2010-12-13 07:00:24 <da2ce7> IE 9 is great, however I use chrome for regular browsing.
 762 2010-12-13 07:00:26 <MT`AwAy> I was surprised to see that most of the time sites that work fine in IE7 won't in IE8
 763 2010-12-13 07:00:29 <thrashaholic> i think on one of my major websites, it's less than 15%
 764 2010-12-13 07:00:36 <aksez> MT`AwAy, what kind of sites do u have that are doing client auth?
 765 2010-12-13 07:00:46 <MT`AwAy> I wish microsoft would just switch to webkit, would make things so much easier
 766 2010-12-13 07:00:56 <thrashaholic> never going to happen
 767 2010-12-13 07:01:00 <MT`AwAy> aksez: http://www.uid.st/ (dunno if the key generation still works, I moved a lot of stuff around recently)
 768 2010-12-13 07:01:05 <thrashaholic> what they really need to do is get out of the browser market altogether
 769 2010-12-13 07:01:06 <Kiba> NIH syndrome
 770 2010-12-13 07:01:22 <thrashaholic> just let the enterprise customers with shitty activex sites keep 6 or 7 and be done with it
 771 2010-12-13 07:01:31 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: if they do that again, we will be stuck supporting the same IE version for eyars
 772 2010-12-13 07:01:42 <thrashaholic> we already are if those are your customers
 773 2010-12-13 07:01:59 <aksez> MT`AwAy, https://www.uid.st/about was a 404
 774 2010-12-13 07:02:03 <thrashaholic> i know poor souls who still deal with 5.5
 775 2010-12-13 07:02:08 <MT`AwAy> aksez: yep, the site is far from complete
 776 2010-12-13 07:02:12 <thrashaholic> because of lazy enterprise IT departments and CTOs :)
 777 2010-12-13 07:02:17 <aksez> need any help?
 778 2010-12-13 07:02:27 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: reminds me, I had a customer running IE5.5 on mac, because he only wants to use IE but only has a mac
 779 2010-12-13 07:02:36 <MT`AwAy> aksez: you can do design+html ?
 780 2010-12-13 07:02:51 <MT`AwAy> (+integration to templates engine)
 781 2010-12-13 07:02:54 <thrashaholic> there's a point where the ROI is not even worth taking on clients like that you know
 782 2010-12-13 07:02:55 <aksez> yes MT`AwAy i can do this
 783 2010-12-13 07:03:03 <MT`AwAy> aksez: mind getting paid in bitcoins? :p
 784 2010-12-13 07:03:08 <thrashaholic> unless you charge them out the ass for being asshats ;)
 785 2010-12-13 07:03:14 <aksez> i have experience with PKI servers
 786 2010-12-13 07:03:22 <Kiba> aksez: what's your portifolio?
 787 2010-12-13 07:03:23 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: I usually charge them more, or have them switch to firefox/Chrome
 788 2010-12-13 07:03:29 <thrashaholic> good
 789 2010-12-13 07:03:33 <thrashaholic> that reminds me
 790 2010-12-13 07:03:41 <thrashaholic> anyone here have much experience with xmpp ?
 791 2010-12-13 07:03:55 <aksez> MT`AwAy, i would not mind some bitcoins
 792 2010-12-13 07:03:55 * MT`AwAy back to coding QBitcoin bitcoin client
 793 2010-12-13 07:04:05 <thrashaholic> why QT, if I may ask
 794 2010-12-13 07:04:13 <thrashaholic> that'll turn a lot of folks off ( like me )
 795 2010-12-13 07:04:22 <MT`AwAy> aksez: PKI servers experience is not required, however I'm looking for people to do/maintain websites
 796 2010-12-13 07:04:34 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: because it's portable and work nicely on mac/linux/windows
 797 2010-12-13 07:04:43 <MT`AwAy> (and some other mobile devices too)
 798 2010-12-13 07:04:52 <thrashaholic> such a meego
 799 2010-12-13 07:04:54 <thrashaholic> as
 800 2010-12-13 07:05:00 <aksez> MT`AwAy, i am a web application developer with experience in PERL and CMSs
 801 2010-12-13 07:05:02 <da2ce7> qt is great, cross platform, maybe a nokia gui?
 802 2010-12-13 07:05:19 * Kiba is a newbie web application developer who can't afford to pay a designer
 803 2010-12-13 07:05:22 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: Qt is used on the nokia S60
 804 2010-12-13 07:05:25 <Kiba> I sucks at choosing color or anything
 805 2010-12-13 07:05:43 <thrashaholic> Kiba...there are websites that generate color schemes....just pick a "root" colour
 806 2010-12-13 07:05:48 <MT`AwAy> aksez: I don't need programming skills, stuff go through a templates system I made
 807 2010-12-13 07:05:52 <thrashaholic> stick with a 3 colour scheme
 808 2010-12-13 07:06:51 waves281 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 809 2010-12-13 07:12:58 <Phoebus> So, 21mil issues, 4mil in circulation. But doesn't he who does the exchanges really keep the funds/make a killing by giving you something that is not yet usable for something that is? I'm missing something there.
 810 2010-12-13 07:13:36 <Phoebus> Unless you decide not to exchange yourself, but accept payments. Though someone has to, if they're to connect with the global economy.
 811 2010-12-13 07:13:45 <Kiba> hmm
 812 2010-12-13 07:13:54 <Kiba> like what?
 813 2010-12-13 07:14:17 <Kiba> exchanges are neccesary to seed price estimation of bitcoin
 814 2010-12-13 07:14:25 <Kiba> otherwise, how do we know bitcoin is worth?
 815 2010-12-13 07:14:59 <Phoebus> Ok, can I exchange real currency for bc myself? Why do I have to give money over to someone. Basically, there's someone who is rich by just issuing the units.
 816 2010-12-13 07:15:02 <Phoebus> And exchanging them.
 817 2010-12-13 07:15:13 <thrashaholic> theyre not one in the same
 818 2010-12-13 07:15:24 <thrashaholic> the one you're exchanging with has to usually buy the btc
 819 2010-12-13 07:15:29 <thrashaholic> so theyre not getting very rich
 820 2010-12-13 07:15:59 <MT`AwAy> the people who have the unit are not "rich" because they invested a lot of hardware to generate units
 821 2010-12-13 07:16:10 <Kiba> you have to understand that exchanges betwene two are mutually agreed on
 822 2010-12-13 07:16:22 <Phoebus> I don't know that.
 823 2010-12-13 07:16:36 <Phoebus> Or what their actual side of the investment is.
 824 2010-12-13 07:16:49 <Phoebus> You could use someone else's hardware as well.
 825 2010-12-13 07:16:52 <Kiba> in any case, it's an agreement between two parties
 826 2010-12-13 07:18:09 <Phoebus> Let's say, I invent a currency, issue 2000. Now tell you, you need to buy them to be able to trade. So you do, but I keep the currency you exchanged, and give you units back. Now I have currency that is widely used, and you have units that don't have much value of exchange yet.
 827 2010-12-13 07:19:30 <Phoebus> I'm the only one who can exchange it back for your currency, if I want. Otherwise, you're stuck with those units.
 828 2010-12-13 07:19:37 <Phoebus> And no way to spend them.
 829 2010-12-13 07:19:55 <Kiba> you agreed to them.
 830 2010-12-13 07:19:59 <Phoebus> Unlike shares, where you get a divident, so they're not completely arbitrary.
 831 2010-12-13 07:20:00 <Kiba> in the first place
 832 2010-12-13 07:20:02 <Kiba> so it's all good.
 833 2010-12-13 07:20:08 <Phoebus> And at some point, you can sell them, in a large market.
 834 2010-12-13 07:20:37 <Phoebus> This is breaking my head, I need to see a model :P
 835 2010-12-13 07:21:56 <Keefe> Phoebus: keep in mind that creation of bitcoins is not by one central entity
 836 2010-12-13 07:21:59 * Kiba is gald to provide a downloadable good and a web service
 837 2010-12-13 07:22:00 <Phoebus> The project I was thinkig to do with cyclos starts at the users. A user comes in, and bids say 20 units for someone to say wash his car. Another user, sees the bid, and agrees, or a 3rd offers to do it for 19 units who knows. In any case, the units are meaningless until they are used.
 838 2010-12-13 07:22:26 <Kiba> cyclos is a credit system, am I right?
 839 2010-12-13 07:22:27 <Phoebus> So, the bid is put up, the task in other words -- and when the person willing to do the task for units shows up, gets rewarded in units vs currency.
 840 2010-12-13 07:22:56 <Phoebus> He/she then can actually go ahead and bid on something else, and now has units to pay another. But you can start with 0, and an agreed upon exchange of services.
 841 2010-12-13 07:23:04 <Phoebus> Say, 1 hour for 20 credits.
 842 2010-12-13 07:23:21 <Phoebus> Then, you need to balance the system against inflation, unreasonable agreements.
 843 2010-12-13 07:24:00 <Phoebus> Kiba, http://project.cyclos.org/
 844 2010-12-13 07:24:06 <Phoebus> It has a demo and everything.
 845 2010-12-13 07:24:50 waves281 has joined
 846 2010-12-13 07:25:46 annodomini has joined
 847 2010-12-13 07:25:59 asdf58 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 848 2010-12-13 07:30:15 <Phoebus> Implementations inclute LETS, barter and time bank. I understand the time bank and barter, not so familiar with LETS.
 849 2010-12-13 07:30:25 <Phoebus> I'd like to do a time bank for starters.
 850 2010-12-13 07:30:37 <Kiba> what is a time bank?
 851 2010-12-13 07:30:37 satamusic has joined
 852 2010-12-13 07:30:58 <Phoebus> Someone does something for you, his time is tracked, he can use that to get other things done for him, in essence.
 853 2010-12-13 07:31:00 <Kiba> is it like you store how much times you're do x, y, z work?
 854 2010-12-13 07:31:09 <Kiba> meh, just offer money
 855 2010-12-13 07:31:11 <Phoebus> So a town can operate even during economic crash.
 856 2010-12-13 07:31:31 <Phoebus> Kiba, you don't have that option when money is worthless :P
 857 2010-12-13 07:31:44 <Kiba> ok.
 858 2010-12-13 07:32:44 <Kiba> meh. I think I just use money when there is money.
 859 2010-12-13 07:33:39 <Phoebus> Kiba, so what does a person do when they have none. There are no jobs to get some. But people in the neighborhood need stuff done, but they also have none.
 860 2010-12-13 07:33:49 <Phoebus> You know, this happens - in say impoverished nations/neighborhoods.
 861 2010-12-13 07:33:54 <Phoebus> And they become stagnant.
 862 2010-12-13 07:34:04 <Phoebus> When they could be organizing and helping each other.
 863 2010-12-13 07:34:08 <Kiba> so they have no goods to barter?
 864 2010-12-13 07:34:20 <Kiba> what if I do unproductive work?
 865 2010-12-13 07:34:24 <Phoebus> Some do, some don't.
 866 2010-12-13 07:34:43 <Kiba> if I take forever to do something, others will be obligated to work forever
 867 2010-12-13 07:34:54 <Phoebus> Same as if you did poor work for pay, you break an agreement, you deal with the consequences.
 868 2010-12-13 07:34:56 <Kiba> why not do things like I will produce x if you produce y
 869 2010-12-13 07:35:14 <Phoebus> hmm?
 870 2010-12-13 07:35:27 <Kiba> specify in term of direct output
 871 2010-12-13 07:35:30 <Phoebus> What do you produce when you have nothing?
 872 2010-12-13 07:35:35 <Phoebus> All you have is your hands.
 873 2010-12-13 07:35:42 <Phoebus> You haven't seen poverty I take it.
 874 2010-12-13 07:35:48 <Kiba> still, you can say, I will produce X, and you will produce Y
 875 2010-12-13 07:35:56 <Phoebus> How?
 876 2010-12-13 07:36:13 <Kiba> say, I will work this acre of farmland
 877 2010-12-13 07:36:18 MattDrollette has joined
 878 2010-12-13 07:36:23 <Kiba> and make sure x y and z task are done
 879 2010-12-13 07:37:05 <Phoebus> Yeah, and you're given X as payment, but then if you want something else, you have to barter X for Y. What a hassle.
 880 2010-12-13 07:37:31 <Phoebus> If the person is already poor, and they have to waste tons of time to get X, then why let them waste a ton more to barter it into other things he/she may need.
 881 2010-12-13 07:37:31 * Kiba shrugs
 882 2010-12-13 07:37:34 <Phoebus> Do you see the issue yet?
 883 2010-12-13 07:37:47 <Kiba> hmm...
 884 2010-12-13 07:38:05 <Phoebus> Anyway, these systems are interfaces for services.
 885 2010-12-13 07:38:16 <Phoebus> Many businesses want services but don't want to exchange goods necessarily.
 886 2010-12-13 07:38:17 <Kiba> incentive matters.
 887 2010-12-13 07:38:27 <Phoebus> They want to exchange time doing X for time doing Y.
 888 2010-12-13 07:38:31 <Kiba> I am inclined to try to find pervase incentive in economic scheme
 889 2010-12-13 07:40:20 <Kiba> anyway, you will find a more rigorous discussion if you post in the economic forum
 890 2010-12-13 07:40:33 <Phoebus> Yeah, I realize that.
 891 2010-12-13 07:40:37 <Kiba> better than what I can provide, anyway
 892 2010-12-13 07:40:43 <Phoebus> I was just trying to think some things through before that.
 893 2010-12-13 07:40:56 <Phoebus> You scare me away with your labels :P
 894 2010-12-13 07:41:16 <Phoebus> To which I respond, BMW, take that. Brand thy labels.
 895 2010-12-13 07:41:33 <da2ce7> I scratch your back, you scratch mine.  This is the axiom of trade. Money is an abstraction of good will. Ayn Rand explains it very well. :)
 896 2010-12-13 07:41:44 <Phoebus> ^
 897 2010-12-13 07:42:28 <Phoebus> I wish wikipedia would stop begging for cash, I donated already and I'm logged in.. so they should know that >.<
 898 2010-12-13 07:42:42 <Diablo-D3> lol ayn rand
 899 2010-12-13 07:42:49 Grantt has joined
 900 2010-12-13 07:42:58 <Phoebus> Reading up on her.
 901 2010-12-13 07:43:46 <da2ce7> she was crazy bad raving mad, but sometimes came up with undeniable truth
 902 2010-12-13 07:43:57 <Phoebus> Cool.
 903 2010-12-13 07:44:11 <Phoebus> I identify with that a bit, but I try to keep myself generally sane :P
 904 2010-12-13 07:44:28 <Diablo-D3> rule #352: do not stick your dick in crazy
 905 2010-12-13 07:44:50 <Phoebus> da2ce7, http://goo.gl/FyvN
 906 2010-12-13 07:45:00 <Phoebus> Some unedited work that keeps me from insanity :P
 907 2010-12-13 07:45:33 Granttt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 908 2010-12-13 07:50:56 * Kiba thinks of a model for integer
 909 2010-12-13 07:50:58 <Kiba> err
 910 2010-12-13 07:50:58 <Kiba> bid
 911 2010-12-13 07:51:11 <Kiba> let see...
 912 2010-12-13 07:52:22 Toadyonps3 has joined
 913 2010-12-13 07:54:12 pere_away is now known as pere
 914 2010-12-13 07:59:20 * MT`AwAy just wrote a JSON encoder in Qt
 915 2010-12-13 07:59:33 <MT`AwAy> took a few minutes :D
 916 2010-12-13 08:00:24 <MT`AwAy> JSON encoded: {"foo":"bar","hello":"world","japanese":"\u65e5\u672c\u8a9e\u3067\u3059\u301c"}
 917 2010-12-13 08:01:40 <Diablo-D3> but there already is several json packages for c++
 918 2010-12-13 08:02:29 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: public domain ?
 919 2010-12-13 08:02:40 <MT`AwAy> anyway writing a json encoder is easy
 920 2010-12-13 08:02:45 <MT`AwAy> I don't know why I'd need a package
 921 2010-12-13 08:02:52 <MT`AwAy> (especially with Qt)
 922 2010-12-13 08:02:54 <Diablo-D3> BSD
 923 2010-12-13 08:03:04 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: does it uses Qt native types?
 924 2010-12-13 08:03:12 pere has left ("Forlater kanalen")
 925 2010-12-13 08:03:13 <Diablo-D3> Qt has no "native" types
 926 2010-12-13 08:03:18 <Diablo-D3> nor should you be using Qt
 927 2010-12-13 08:03:27 <Diablo-D3> its a C++ lib like any other
 928 2010-12-13 08:03:33 <Diablo-D3> generic, slow, boring, bloated
 929 2010-12-13 08:03:59 <MT`AwAy> it makes development much faster, and provides cross platform apis to most of the stuff I'll ever need
 930 2010-12-13 08:04:22 <MT`AwAy> and more than anything, its doc is well made
 931 2010-12-13 08:04:49 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but you have to use c++
 932 2010-12-13 08:04:49 <Phoebus> Haven't gotten around to using Qt yet, I end up just making command line scripts... sooo lazy >.<
 933 2010-12-13 08:04:54 <Diablo-D3> which is a big o-no
 934 2010-12-13 08:04:58 <Diablo-D3> *no-no
 935 2010-12-13 08:05:06 <Diablo-D3> c++ should not be used on any new code, ever
 936 2010-12-13 08:05:25 <Diablo-D3> and for fucks sakes, dont be a tard like satoshi and use boost
 937 2010-12-13 08:05:31 * MT`AwAy hates boost
 938 2010-12-13 08:05:46 <Diablo-D3> boost is the most hated blob of c++ ever
 939 2010-12-13 08:05:50 <Diablo-D3> qt comes in as #2
 940 2010-12-13 08:06:02 <MT`AwAy> however doing GUI in C is just overkill, and I just don't have time for that
 941 2010-12-13 08:06:37 <Phoebus> Hence, the command line only implementations, you can pass args -- great! OMG there's useful output :D
 942 2010-12-13 08:06:41 <MT`AwAy> especially if I want a gui working fine (and looking fine) on macos/linux/win32
 943 2010-12-13 08:06:45 <Diablo-D3> doing gui in c is very easy
 944 2010-12-13 08:06:47 <Diablo-D3> just use gtk
 945 2010-12-13 08:06:51 <Phoebus> Who needs GUI's right? Well, my mom does :/
 946 2010-12-13 08:06:52 <MT`AwAy> gtk looks like shit
 947 2010-12-13 08:06:56 <Phoebus> ^
 948 2010-12-13 08:07:00 <Diablo-D3> gtk looks like anything you want.
 949 2010-12-13 08:07:02 <MT`AwAy> and documentation is crap
 950 2010-12-13 08:07:10 <Diablo-D3> gtk's documentation is fine
 951 2010-12-13 08:07:12 <joe_1> but isn't gtk linux only?
 952 2010-12-13 08:07:20 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: no, runs great on windows and osx
 953 2010-12-13 08:07:20 <Phoebus> joe_1, no, windows too.
 954 2010-12-13 08:07:25 <Phoebus> Ya.
 955 2010-12-13 08:07:39 <Diablo-D3> its now swt, obviously
 956 2010-12-13 08:07:44 <Diablo-D3> er
 957 2010-12-13 08:07:47 <Diablo-D3> its no swt, obviously
 958 2010-12-13 08:07:49 <Phoebus> joe_1, a couple of apps that I've used that use gtk, xchat, pidgin, gimp.
 959 2010-12-13 08:08:04 <MT`AwAy> also Qt makes my job way easier for many other parts of the app
 960 2010-12-13 08:08:18 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: yes, but you might as well just use java at this point.
 961 2010-12-13 08:08:21 <joe_1> pidgin gays out after a few days of use. is that related to its use of gtk?
 962 2010-12-13 08:08:28 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: I don't have enough ram for that
 963 2010-12-13 08:08:30 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: no, pidgin is just largely shit.
 964 2010-12-13 08:08:40 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: yeah, its hard to get like 32 megs of ram sometimes
 965 2010-12-13 08:08:44 <Phoebus> Qt works great with ruby too.
 966 2010-12-13 08:09:02 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: anyway if you don't like Qt, you are free to not use my bitcoin client :)
 967 2010-12-13 08:09:11 <Diablo-D3> erm
 968 2010-12-13 08:09:17 <Phoebus> I've switched to pidgin, which is also shit, but with less effort to set up. You set it up once :P
 969 2010-12-13 08:09:22 <MT`AwAy> maybe I'll make one in gtk, if there's proper documentation & support
 970 2010-12-13 08:09:27 <Phoebus> Eh I meant disgby.
 971 2010-12-13 08:09:30 <joe_1> mt you have a client out?
 972 2010-12-13 08:09:32 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: but why didnt you just use satoshi's?
 973 2010-12-13 08:09:40 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: currently working on it
 974 2010-12-13 08:09:49 <Diablo-D3> his is already c++
 975 2010-12-13 08:10:01 <joe_1> is there a link that describnes it
 976 2010-12-13 08:10:33 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: because it didn't fit my needs, the api is weak, the code is unreadable, it uses oracle db, it uses wxwidgets
 977 2010-12-13 08:10:37 remmy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 978 2010-12-13 08:10:41 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: https://bitcoin.in/forum/index.php/topic,4.0.html
 979 2010-12-13 08:10:55 <MT`AwAy> and the base design doesn't suit my needs
 980 2010-12-13 08:11:16 * MT`AwAy wants a bitcoin client with a binary api on top of the json-rpc api, and ability to connect to many blockchains at the same time
 981 2010-12-13 08:11:48 <MT`AwAy> the only pure C part (at least aiming to be pure C) is the wallet handler, which is a separate process
 982 2010-12-13 08:12:07 <Diablo-D3> woah woah wooah
 983 2010-12-13 08:12:07 <Diablo-D3> woah
 984 2010-12-13 08:12:09 <Diablo-D3> woah
 985 2010-12-13 08:12:14 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: it doesnt use oracle db
 986 2010-12-13 08:12:19 <Diablo-D3> it uses BERKLEY db
 987 2010-12-13 08:12:25 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: it uses oracle berkey db
 988 2010-12-13 08:12:33 <Diablo-D3> and no it doesnt
 989 2010-12-13 08:13:05 <Diablo-D3> oracle didnt create a bdb distro until 5.x
 990 2010-12-13 08:13:18 <Diablo-D3> this is why most people dont use 5.x, they also changed the license in a shitty way
 991 2010-12-13 08:13:25 <Diablo-D3> bdb 4.x is straight bsd licensed
 992 2010-12-13 08:13:32 <joe_1> i would like to see an advanced client that lets you do whatever you want and see what you have in detail
 993 2010-12-13 08:13:56 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: bdb was written at berkeley back in the 80s
 994 2010-12-13 08:14:00 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: that's part of the goal
 995 2010-12-13 08:14:12 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: it was maintained by the company called sleepycat
 996 2010-12-13 08:14:27 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: anyway I tend to like sqlite better
 997 2010-12-13 08:14:36 <thrashaholic> i agree
 998 2010-12-13 08:14:40 <Diablo-D3> dude, you dont even know what bdb is
 999 2010-12-13 08:14:49 <Diablo-D3> its a fucking concurrent kv store.
1000 2010-12-13 08:15:00 <Diablo-D3> its a dbm clone.
1001 2010-12-13 08:15:18 <thrashaholic> i dont find the code unreadable really...
1002 2010-12-13 08:15:23 <Diablo-D3> and the original dbm was written by ken fucking thompson himself in the 70s
1003 2010-12-13 08:15:27 <thrashaholic> i found it pretty easy to grok
1004 2010-12-13 08:15:40 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: so I dont know what drugs you're on, but wtf.
1005 2010-12-13 08:15:44 <MT`AwAy> thrashaholic: I believe main.cpp could have been a few more files
1006 2010-12-13 08:16:06 <Diablo-D3> thousands of apps that people use every day use bdb.
1007 2010-12-13 08:16:09 <thrashaholic> i agree with that, the organisation is a bit off
1008 2010-12-13 08:16:17 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: and more and more apps use sqlite instead
1009 2010-12-13 08:16:19 <joe_1> like a built-in, visual explorer that shows where money came from
1010 2010-12-13 08:16:25 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: if they need sql, yes
1011 2010-12-13 08:16:29 <Diablo-D3> bdb _is a kv store_
1012 2010-12-13 08:16:49 <Diablo-D3> It Does Exactly What It Says On The Box (tm)
1013 2010-12-13 08:17:55 <Diablo-D3> and not only that, sqlite itself has a rather useless storage backend
1014 2010-12-13 08:18:09 <Diablo-D3> it cant be safely concurrently used by different processes
1015 2010-12-13 08:18:14 <MT`AwAy> who cares ?
1016 2010-12-13 08:18:15 <Diablo-D3> nor does it have fine grained locking
1017 2010-12-13 08:18:28 <MT`AwAy> you're planning to run more than one wallet on the same wallet file ?
1018 2010-12-13 08:18:47 <MT`AwAy> another big user of sqlite databases is firefox
1019 2010-12-13 08:18:47 <Diablo-D3> am I talking to the fucking wall here?
1020 2010-12-13 08:18:54 <Diablo-D3> bdb was not fucking invented for satoshi to use
1021 2010-12-13 08:19:04 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: I'm just saying sqlite fits my needs better
1022 2010-12-13 08:19:21 <Diablo-D3> it really doesnt.
1023 2010-12-13 08:19:23 <joe_1> and looking ahead to bitDNS - client should be able to distinguish which unique coins you have. in the DNS coinbase, I hope that these unique identifiers of coins match up to DNS namespace.
1024 2010-12-13 08:19:52 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: and not only that
1025 2010-12-13 08:19:57 <Diablo-D3> to fix sqlite's fucked up backend
1026 2010-12-13 08:19:59 <Diablo-D3> guess what Oracle did
1027 2010-12-13 08:20:16 <Diablo-D3> in one of the new 5.x versions of bdb, it has a copy of fucking sqlite, hacked to use bdb as the storage backend
1028 2010-12-13 08:20:19 <Diablo-D3> because guess what!
1029 2010-12-13 08:20:22 <Diablo-D3> guess what sqlite does!
1030 2010-12-13 08:20:34 <Diablo-D3> it stores shit as a fucking tuple on the disk with a single primary column internally used!
1031 2010-12-13 08:20:41 <Diablo-D3> sqlite's back end is a fucking kv store!
1032 2010-12-13 08:20:42 <thrashaholic> :)
1033 2010-12-13 08:20:57 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: you didn't know that?
1034 2010-12-13 08:21:09 <Diablo-D3> apparently you didnt.
1035 2010-12-13 08:21:21 <MT`AwAy> each row has an unique key which can be referenced from the indexes
1036 2010-12-13 08:21:46 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: YOU cant use that, though
1037 2010-12-13 08:21:52 <Phoebus> Can the client use GPUs to generate hashes?
1038 2010-12-13 08:21:54 <MT`AwAy> what makes sqlite interesting is the fact it's a self-describing file format, anyone looking at a file can see the tables structures and is normally able to understand it
1039 2010-12-13 08:22:04 <Diablo-D3> Phoebus: yes, using third party miners, like mine
1040 2010-12-13 08:22:12 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: thats not a feature.
1041 2010-12-13 08:22:22 <Phoebus> Mmhmm, Diablo-D3 linky? Windows client as well?
1042 2010-12-13 08:22:32 <thrashaholic> it's java
1043 2010-12-13 08:22:39 <thrashaholic> so thats likely yes
1044 2010-12-13 08:22:39 <Diablo-D3> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0;all
1045 2010-12-13 08:22:39 CyanDynamo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1046 2010-12-13 08:22:42 <bitbot> Official DiabloMiner Thread
1047 2010-12-13 08:22:43 <Phoebus> Cheers.
1048 2010-12-13 08:23:41 <MT`AwAy> anyway I stand by my choice of sqlite as database backend, and Qt as background library for gui/networking/event management
1049 2010-12-13 08:24:04 <Diablo-D3> and I've used both in code before, both bdb and sqlite
1050 2010-12-13 08:24:14 <Diablo-D3> and if you're using sqlite as a kv store, you're a waste of space.
1051 2010-12-13 08:25:36 <MT`AwAy> I use sqlite as a regular sql backend, storing stuff like bitcoin addresses in there (columns: address, public key, private key, and a few flags: encrypted, used, etc)
1052 2010-12-13 08:26:18 satamusic_ has joined
1053 2010-12-13 08:26:59 <MT`AwAy> (of course I could just use some structure and encode the stuff, do endianness conversion when required, etc so I would only need kv stores, would just take much more time)
1054 2010-12-13 08:27:13 <joe_1> whats a kv store
1055 2010-12-13 08:27:17 <MT`AwAy> (and potentially have bugs I'd have to track myself, thru taking more time)
1056 2010-12-13 08:27:30 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: key value store, basically it lets you store something with a given key, then retrieve it by its key
1057 2010-12-13 08:28:07 <MT`AwAy> if you want an example you can type: db4.7_dump ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
1058 2010-12-13 08:28:22 <MT`AwAy> (just don't show anybody the output or they'll be able to use your coins)
1059 2010-12-13 08:28:23 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1060 2010-12-13 08:29:39 <joe_1> i wish i could run that command.. im on a windows box
1061 2010-12-13 08:29:46 <MT`AwAy> ok
1062 2010-12-13 08:29:50 <MT`AwAy> let me show you with my testnet wallet
1063 2010-12-13 08:29:54 <MT`AwAy> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/304205/
1064 2010-12-13 08:30:54 <MT`AwAy> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/304206/ <- an example wallet in sqlite format
1065 2010-12-13 08:32:32 <joe_1> first of all, the address IS the public key, so why do they store two columns.
1066 2010-12-13 08:33:07 <joe_1> second, i understand the second pastebin but the first one looks like garbage; what am i supposed to understand from it?
1067 2010-12-13 08:33:08 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: just in case, for now. If I don't need it I'll drop it
1068 2010-12-13 08:33:17 <MT`AwAy> [17:31:57] <joe_1> second, i understand the second pastebin but the first one looks like garbage; what am i supposed to understand from it? <-  that's my point
1069 2010-12-13 08:33:37 <MT`AwAy> first pastebin is current bitcoin client's data storage, second one is my sqlite-based bitcoin storage
1070 2010-12-13 08:33:49 <joe_1> oh ok
1071 2010-12-13 08:34:35 <MT`AwAy> so you can see how easy it is for someone who didn't initially wrote the code to understand the storage format
1072 2010-12-13 08:37:28 <joe_1> so why is someone a waste of space if they want to use sqlite to store things?
1073 2010-12-13 08:37:34 elgee has joined
1074 2010-12-13 08:38:14 <Kiba> nighty night
1075 2010-12-13 08:38:29 <Phoebus> So it may take this pc 223 days on average to calculate at 2727 Khps... which after 7,5 months it would make 50 btc or otherwise 25 USD? right?
1076 2010-12-13 08:38:54 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: because sqlite stores more infos in the file, such as table format, keys, etc
1077 2010-12-13 08:39:03 <Diablo-D3> 25 USD? what?
1078 2010-12-13 08:39:17 <joe_1> oh ok
1079 2010-12-13 08:39:21 <MT`AwAy> 50 BTC is closer to 10 USD
1080 2010-12-13 08:39:25 <MT`AwAy> at current rate
1081 2010-12-13 08:39:28 <Diablo-D3> 50 BTC is closer to like 5
1082 2010-12-13 08:39:38 <joe_1> diablo: but in 7.5 months it will be at least 0.50 per coin
1083 2010-12-13 08:39:46 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: unlikely
1084 2010-12-13 08:39:48 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: mtgox's 0.21~0.22
1085 2010-12-13 08:40:15 <MT`AwAy> (High:0.2278 Low: 0.2068)
1086 2010-12-13 08:40:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but after you're done getting jewed down and + paypal fees
1087 2010-12-13 08:41:05 <MT`AwAy> :D
1088 2010-12-13 08:41:41 <MT`AwAy> 0.65% for mtgox, 3.9%+0.25 for paypal, 2.5% extra for paypal if your account is not USD
1089 2010-12-13 08:41:55 <MT`AwAy> and ?% for whoever converts your lrusd to paypal
1090 2010-12-13 08:42:01 <Diablo-D3> yeah so like
1091 2010-12-13 08:42:05 <Diablo-D3> by the time you're done
1092 2010-12-13 08:42:06 <MT`AwAy> (oh and I almost forgot the 1% libertyreserve fee)
1093 2010-12-13 08:42:10 <Diablo-D3> you can afford a burger at mcds
1094 2010-12-13 08:42:54 <MT`AwAy> or, you can use one of the alternative bitcoin to cash services (or bitcoin to visa), I saw some with ~0.21 rates
1095 2010-12-13 08:43:00 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1096 2010-12-13 08:43:40 <Rh0nda_> This is … weird. I dreamt that I have received a second BTC last night.  %-)
1097 2010-12-13 08:43:51 <MT`AwAy> Rh0nda_: on what address ?
1098 2010-12-13 08:43:59 <Rh0nda_> lol
1099 2010-12-13 08:44:08 <Rh0nda_> You already sent me one. ;)
1100 2010-12-13 08:44:17 <MT`AwAy> :p
1101 2010-12-13 08:44:33 <Kiba> wee.. working projects each day at once
1102 2010-12-13 08:44:36 <Rh0nda_> But it was a pretty weird dream indeed.
1103 2010-12-13 08:44:46 <Kiba> JStet, Bitpredict, and Soulplaying.com
1104 2010-12-13 08:44:56 <Rh0nda_> And if you need a tester with a big endian system, I am willing to be that person. :)
1105 2010-12-13 08:45:07 <joe_1> rhonda are you trying to get on to the casino and double up that coin?
1106 2010-12-13 08:45:09 Rh0nda_ is now known as Rhonda
1107 2010-12-13 08:45:17 Rhonda has quit (Changing host)
1108 2010-12-13 08:45:17 Rhonda has joined
1109 2010-12-13 08:45:26 <Kiba> so folks...
1110 2010-12-13 08:45:38 <Kiba> http://www.soulplaying.com
1111 2010-12-13 08:45:57 <Rhonda> joe_1: You mean rather lose it?
1112 2010-12-13 08:46:22 <Kiba> accepting bitcoins...
1113 2010-12-13 08:46:38 <kabo69> ;;bc;stat
1114 2010-12-13 08:46:39 <gribble> Error: "bc;stat" is not a valid command.
1115 2010-12-13 08:46:41 <kabo69> ;;bc;stats
1116 2010-12-13 08:46:41 <gribble> Error: "bc;stats" is not a valid command.
1117 2010-12-13 08:46:50 <kabo69> ;;bc,stats
1118 2010-12-13 08:46:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97326 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1457 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 22 hours, 49 minutes, and 29 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13849.42879070
1119 2010-12-13 08:47:00 <joe_1> that would be pretty hard
1120 2010-12-13 08:47:36 satamusic has joined
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1122 2010-12-13 08:50:24 bertodsera has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1123 2010-12-13 08:53:17 Phoebus has joined
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1126 2010-12-13 09:04:58 * MT`AwAy thinks about coding a bitcoin client in php using php-gtk
1127 2010-12-13 09:06:39 bertodsera has joined
1128 2010-12-13 09:12:06 Stephen has joined
1129 2010-12-13 09:12:29 <Rhonda> yuck!
1130 2010-12-13 09:12:38 <Rhonda> That's pretty dirty.
1131 2010-12-13 09:12:50 <MT`AwAy> Rhonda: ?
1132 2010-12-13 09:13:04 <Stephen> Hello folks, my project is looking to setup a couple bitcoin servers, and I was curious, do I use the same address across these nodes, or do I allow each to generate their own?
1133 2010-12-13 09:13:18 <Phoebus> So, what's a bitcoin client that supports multiple GPUs on linux?
1134 2010-12-13 09:13:34 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: generate
1135 2010-12-13 09:13:42 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: none
1136 2010-12-13 09:13:43 * Stephen notes a lack of a "address" property in the bitcoin.conf example
1137 2010-12-13 09:13:47 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: only miners supports gpu
1138 2010-12-13 09:13:59 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: you can't define an address, they are generated
1139 2010-12-13 09:13:59 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, I don't get how miners work.
1140 2010-12-13 09:14:16 <Stephen> I'm holding out for the bitcoin client that runs on the Minecraft CPU
1141 2010-12-13 09:14:22 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, can I use a machine as a miner, to do the work for my bitcoin account?
1142 2010-12-13 09:14:27 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: it's a software that connects to a bitcoind instance and asks for work, gives the work to the gpu, then returns the result to bitcoind
1143 2010-12-13 09:14:37 <Phoebus> ok
1144 2010-12-13 09:15:01 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, can you point me to a linux miner that uses GPUs/CUDA?
1145 2010-12-13 09:15:01 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: start by implementing sha256, and time it
1146 2010-12-13 09:15:07 <Phoebus> And maybe a guide to linking it up.
1147 2010-12-13 09:15:14 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: what gfx card?
1148 2010-12-13 09:15:21 <MT`AwAy> (nvidia or ati/amd?)
1149 2010-12-13 09:15:21 <Phoebus> Nvidia.
1150 2010-12-13 09:15:23 <MT`AwAy> mh
1151 2010-12-13 09:15:38 <MT`AwAy> you can try Diablo-D3 's miner if you got the nvidia beta drivers (I think)
1152 2010-12-13 09:15:51 <Stephen> So, If I'm to understand this correctly, if I have multiple servers, and some users, all generating coins for an organization, the most logical solution is to write a small mamging app to talk to each of them and have them deliver their coins to one address periodically. Does this sound reasonable?
1153 2010-12-13 09:16:05 <MT`AwAy> [17:21:29] <Diablo-D3> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0;all
1154 2010-12-13 09:16:08 <bitbot> Official DiabloMiner Thread
1155 2010-12-13 09:16:18 <Stephen> MT`AwAy: Thanks
1156 2010-12-13 09:16:29 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: seems that it works on normal nvidia drivers now
1157 2010-12-13 09:16:48 <Stephen> And I wonder which would work faster, the actual Micraft CPU, or randomly pulling numbers from dieing monsters
1158 2010-12-13 09:17:15 <Stephen> I've actually not bought the game yet, believe it or not.
1159 2010-12-13 09:17:20 <Stephen> Too busy coding
1160 2010-12-13 09:17:21 <MT`AwAy> [18:14:41] <Stephen> So, If I'm to understand this correctly, if I have multiple servers, and some users, all generating coins for an organization, the most logical solution is to write a small mamging app to talk to each of them and have them deliver their coins to one address periodically. Does this sound reasonable? <- that's what I'm doing here
1161 2010-12-13 09:17:42 <Stephen> Sweet.
1162 2010-12-13 09:17:51 <MT`AwAy> I got a daemon connecting to each of my bitcoin process on my servers, and if one has coins in it, they are transferred to the main server
1163 2010-12-13 09:18:21 <Stephen> heh, now if I could only find a way to run a bitcoin daemon inside a Firefox extension :-P
1164 2010-12-13 09:18:46 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: that would either require including bitcoin code for different platforms in the extension, or re-implement bitcoin in JS
1165 2010-12-13 09:18:47 <Stephen> The users who opted for it might actually generate the little money we need to run the servers.
1166 2010-12-13 09:19:08 <Stephen> MT`AwAy: I enjoy the challenge of reimplementing anything into JS
1167 2010-12-13 09:19:22 <Stephen> However, my project is Firefox based.
1168 2010-12-13 09:19:30 <Stephen> Alas, I think one might need Chrome
1169 2010-12-13 09:19:46 <Stephen> So, MT`AwAy, tell me more about your project
1170 2010-12-13 09:19:58 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: which one? (/me runs a lot of projects)
1171 2010-12-13 09:20:03 <Stephen> lol
1172 2010-12-13 09:20:14 phuzion has joined
1173 2010-12-13 09:20:27 <Stephen> I suppose Bitcoin has taken the place of your standard SETI grid on all projects, eh?
1174 2010-12-13 09:20:43 <MT`AwAy> yep, somewhat
1175 2010-12-13 09:20:55 <Stephen> I'm just curious to hear some creative things you may have done or seen with this system
1176 2010-12-13 09:20:56 <MT`AwAy> also working on that: https://bitcoin.in/forum/index.php/topic,4.0.html
1177 2010-12-13 09:21:06 noagendamarket has joined
1178 2010-12-13 09:21:09 <MT`AwAy> I'm not satisfied at all with the current bitcoin client
1179 2010-12-13 09:21:25 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
1180 2010-12-13 09:21:25 noagendamarket has joined
1181 2010-12-13 09:21:56 <Stephen> It's interesting. my project ( http://www.nova-initia.com ) uses quite a bit of sha hashing itself
1182 2010-12-13 09:22:20 azetab has joined
1183 2010-12-13 09:22:31 <Stephen> we identify objects through the hash of the url they were placed on
1184 2010-12-13 09:23:09 <Stephen> It'll be interesting if we reach the point of worrying about collisions
1185 2010-12-13 09:23:31 <Stephen> Hmm...
1186 2010-12-13 09:24:23 <Stephen> Currently, if a user sends a payment to another user, that notification travels peer to peer until it reaches the recipient, or is the transaction notifcation at least attempted to be notified through a central point?
1187 2010-12-13 09:24:38 <Phoebus> Diablo-D3, are you around?
1188 2010-12-13 09:24:55 <joe_1> stephen: the first way
1189 2010-12-13 09:26:46 <Stephen> So the only way to speed up in any fashion notification of transactions meant for you is to have those peers making direct IP payments
1190 2010-12-13 09:26:54 <Stephen> Interesting...
1191 2010-12-13 09:28:44 <jgarzik> Stephen: direct IP is disabled by default
1192 2010-12-13 09:28:58 <jgarzik> P2P relay is pretty fast
1193 2010-12-13 09:33:52 <Stephen> Im sure it is, sorry, I wasn't knocking that
1194 2010-12-13 09:34:12 <Stephen> I was more interesting in finding a way to integrate payments into my project
1195 2010-12-13 09:34:20 bertodsera has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1196 2010-12-13 09:34:45 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: two ways: either implement a "bitcoin wallet" or do per-transaction payment (creating a bitcoin addr for each transaction)
1197 2010-12-13 09:34:55 <Stephen> But, if Direct is disabled by default, I imagine that won't be much of an option, unless they're all paying the same place, which kind of defeated the idea I had
1198 2010-12-13 09:35:22 <Stephen> I'll look into the wallet
1199 2010-12-13 09:35:24 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: with the api you can generate a bitcoin addr per transaction
1200 2010-12-13 09:35:40 <MT`AwAy> then check every 5~10 minutes if this address received bitcoins
1201 2010-12-13 09:35:52 <MT`AwAy> that's how I implemented bitcoin payments on https://www.kalyhost.com/
1202 2010-12-13 09:36:15 genjix has joined
1203 2010-12-13 09:36:22 <MT`AwAy> the other option ("wallet") lets your users store bitcoins with you, and let them use them in realtime once they are in the wallet
1204 2010-12-13 09:36:31 <Stephen> TBH, there's some processing that's going to come into play that I'm considering offloading on users. I'm thinking instead of paying those users in game currency, I could provide something a little more substantial
1205 2010-12-13 09:36:32 <da2ce7> Use a new address per user; allow the user to top up that address with coins.  Keep an internal balance for micropayments.
1206 2010-12-13 09:36:54 <genjix> MT`AwAy: Our Pre-Public Meeting, https://github.com/genjix/kartludox/wiki/Dec-13-2010---pre-planning
1207 2010-12-13 09:37:08 <Stephen> oic, basically my server becomes an address repository
1208 2010-12-13 09:37:30 <MT`AwAy> genjix: metting for?
1209 2010-12-13 09:37:35 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: yep, that's what the wallet is
1210 2010-12-13 09:37:37 <genjix> the poker software
1211 2010-12-13 09:37:41 <MT`AwAy> genjix: ok
1212 2010-12-13 09:37:44 <genjix> feel free to lurk :p
1213 2010-12-13 09:37:55 <Stephen> boo
1214 2010-12-13 09:37:56 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: by default the wallet will contain at least 100 pre-generated bitcoin addresses
1215 2010-12-13 09:38:06 <genjix> it's our 'secret' meeting. the next one will be public.
1216 2010-12-13 09:38:24 <MT`AwAy> so it's 2 am for me :D
1217 2010-12-13 09:38:25 <Stephen> bitcoind fails on Fedora 12 x86_64 AWS instance
1218 2010-12-13 09:38:26 <MT`AwAy> on dec. 19
1219 2010-12-13 09:38:40 <Stephen> Anyone got a link under their belt before I go hunt?
1220 2010-12-13 09:38:56 <Phoebus> Stephen, using AWS? Interesting, what package/setup?
1221 2010-12-13 09:39:16 <Stephen> t1.micro
1222 2010-12-13 09:39:19 altamic has joined
1223 2010-12-13 09:39:24 <Phoebus> Ah, cool.
1224 2010-12-13 09:39:27 <Stephen> lemme grab uname
1225 2010-12-13 09:39:36 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: I only use gentoo
1226 2010-12-13 09:39:49 <Phoebus> Gentoo would take too long to setup :P
1227 2010-12-13 09:39:52 <Stephen> Linux {redacted} 2.6.34.7-56.40.amzn1.x86_64 #1 SMP Fri Oct 22 18:48:49 UTC 2010 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
1228 2010-12-13 09:39:55 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: only one day
1229 2010-12-13 09:39:59 <MT`AwAy> :D
1230 2010-12-13 09:40:03 <Phoebus> lmao ya
1231 2010-12-13 09:40:14 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: compiled bitcoind yourself?
1232 2010-12-13 09:40:24 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: and "bitcoind fails" any error msg?
1233 2010-12-13 09:40:31 <Stephen> Heh, these servers are primarily LAMPs with some craziness in cron, not much more needed
1234 2010-12-13 09:40:45 <genjix> dssdsdsd
1235 2010-12-13 09:41:05 <Stephen> error read: /bitcoind: /usr/lib64/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.9' not found (required by ./bitcoind)
1236 2010-12-13 09:41:07 <Phoebus> I was thinking of testing a GPU cluster instead, but don't know if the miner would make appropriate use of it.
1237 2010-12-13 09:41:18 <azetab> do you guys know why specifically 21,000,000 is the amount chosen to be the maximum amount of coins?
1238 2010-12-13 09:41:41 <da2ce7> azetab, just a nice round number.
1239 2010-12-13 09:41:58 <Stephen> But feel free to find fancy numerology reasons for it
1240 2010-12-13 09:42:01 <Phoebus> Isn't it based on block computation algorithms?
1241 2010-12-13 09:42:02 <Stephen> USD did
1242 2010-12-13 09:43:33 <Stephen> MT`AwAy: I'm guessing that I'm missing the version of glibc necessary, but I've already put one instance into dependancy hell, so I'm a bit wearly of rushing into upgrading c libraries this time
1243 2010-12-13 09:43:46 <Stephen> ^weary
1244 2010-12-13 09:43:55 <genjix> sasdsd
1245 2010-12-13 09:45:02 bertodsera has joined
1246 2010-12-13 09:45:39 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: compile it yourseif
1247 2010-12-13 09:45:50 <MT`AwAy> it's just the original build that was not compiled with the exact same glibc as you
1248 2010-12-13 09:45:51 <Stephen> yeah, headed there now
1249 2010-12-13 09:46:05 <MT`AwAy> just make sure you make bitcoind only, so you don't need wxwidgets
1250 2010-12-13 09:46:19 <genjix> Stephen: make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
1251 2010-12-13 09:49:04 anarchyx_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1252 2010-12-13 09:49:21 anarchyx_ has joined
1253 2010-12-13 09:50:57 satamusic_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1254 2010-12-13 09:51:25 satamusic_ has joined
1255 2010-12-13 10:02:34 <Stephen> hmm...
1256 2010-12-13 10:02:41 <Stephen> Building newest version of openssl
1257 2010-12-13 10:03:06 <Stephen> aws's fedora doesn't build with ecdsa for some reason
1258 2010-12-13 10:03:24 <Stephen> eh well, at least it will be fast :-)
1259 2010-12-13 10:03:48 <MT`AwAy> :D
1260 2010-12-13 10:04:03 <Phoebus> Anyone interested in using the GPU cluster with a gpu miner? :P
1261 2010-12-13 10:04:11 <MT`AwAy> that's one reason why my bitcoin client do not require ecdsa from openssl)
1262 2010-12-13 10:04:48 <Stephen> :-)
1263 2010-12-13 10:05:12 <MT`AwAy> and what about ECIES :p
1264 2010-12-13 10:05:19 <MT`AwAy> not even in openssl (in fact it's still a draft)
1265 2010-12-13 10:05:29 <da2ce7> is anyone making a wallet 'de-mixer' where we can choose to use fresh coins or, second hand ones?
1266 2010-12-13 10:05:35 <Stephen> My client has no dependencies, but it does require you click at a low volume over a long distance call 3 times a day
1267 2010-12-13 10:06:13 <MT`AwAy> [19:04:19] <da2ce7> is anyone making a wallet 'de-mixer' where we can choose to use fresh coins or, second hand ones? <- you can already with sendfrom
1268 2010-12-13 10:06:34 Amiga4000 has joined
1269 2010-12-13 10:06:37 <Amiga4000> hi
1270 2010-12-13 10:06:45 <da2ce7> cool
1271 2010-12-13 10:07:22 <dsg> MT`AwAy: Not according to gavin's explanation of the accounts function
1272 2010-12-13 10:07:23 <Stephen> In file included from util.cpp:5: headers.h:38:27: error: openssl/ecdsa.h: No such file or directory headers.h:43:20: error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
1273 2010-12-13 10:07:49 <dsg> The accounts system just ensures an account doesn't go over-balance, but coins aren't specifically tied to an account.
1274 2010-12-13 10:08:07 <MT`AwAy> dsg: coins are tied to an address
1275 2010-12-13 10:08:20 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: you need db dev package
1276 2010-12-13 10:08:22 <Stephen> First three lines of errors when I tried "make -f makefile.unix bitcoind"
1277 2010-12-13 10:08:31 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: (and also need ecdsa in openssl)
1278 2010-12-13 10:08:49 <Stephen> :-)
1279 2010-12-13 10:09:01 <Stephen> I'm yum just installed db4-devel
1280 2010-12-13 10:09:04 <Stephen> openssl is building
1281 2010-12-13 10:09:13 <Stephen> -I'm...
1282 2010-12-13 10:09:20 <Stephen> fat fingers today
1283 2010-12-13 10:09:26 <MT`AwAy> db4-devel should take care of db_cxx.h
1284 2010-12-13 10:10:41 <Stephen> hmm. okay, not key.h is throwing errors.
1285 2010-12-13 10:10:50 <Stephen> Luckily they all look the same
1286 2010-12-13 10:10:51 <MT`AwAy> what kind of error ?
1287 2010-12-13 10:11:06 <Stephen> sorry long post
1288 2010-12-13 10:11:08 <Stephen> v
1289 2010-12-13 10:11:08 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: http://pastebin.com/
1290 2010-12-13 10:11:22 <Stephen> key.h:46: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of âEC_KEYâ with no type key.h:46: error: expected â;â before â*â token key.h: In constructor âCKey::CKey()â: key.h:52: error: âpkeyâ was not declared in this scope key.h:52: error: âEC_KEY_new_by_curve_nameâ was not declared in this scope key.h: In copy constructor âCKey::CKey(const CKey&)â:
1291 2010-12-13 10:11:24 <dsg> MT`AwAy: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1886.msg28858#msg28858 - I'm more inclined to trust someone with SVN commit privileges, sorry :)
1292 2010-12-13 10:11:25 <Stephen> Ah yes
1293 2010-12-13 10:11:26 <bitbot> Accounts: svn rev 188 (JSON-RPC API changes) : gavinandresen: Accounts do not affect the previous-transaction-selection algorithm at all; if you sendfrom FOO, bitcoin doesn't make any effort to only use coins that were received by FOO.  Think of your wallet as being a big pool of coins.  Coins are not stamped with account names when they go in, instead, there's a little m...
1294 2010-12-13 10:11:30 <Stephen> mom plz
1295 2010-12-13 10:11:50 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: seems like the result of missing openssl/ecdsa.h
1296 2010-12-13 10:12:14 <Stephen> http://pastebin.com/yE79e1tQ
1297 2010-12-13 10:12:18 <Stephen> k
1298 2010-12-13 10:13:02 <MT`AwAy> dsg: it just explains sendpfrom behaviour, not how it really is inside
1299 2010-12-13 10:13:14 <MT`AwAy> (just look at blockexplorer to see what I mean)
1300 2010-12-13 10:13:26 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: headers.h:38:27: error: openssl/ecdsa.h: No such file or directory <- this cause all the following errors
1301 2010-12-13 10:13:59 <Stephen> cool
1302 2010-12-13 10:14:03 <dsg> MT`AwAy: I will try it when I get home, but it seems to me that's exactly what he's saying, that sendfrom will not make an effort to send coins received specifically to that account. It just does bookkeeping.
1303 2010-12-13 10:14:10 <Stephen> yeah, openssl is at make install right now
1304 2010-12-13 10:14:24 <MT`AwAy> dsg: yep, didn't check the sendfrom implementation
1305 2010-12-13 10:14:47 <MT`AwAy> (one reason more why I'm not fan of the bitcoin api)
1306 2010-12-13 10:15:07 <dsg> I agree that it should work the way you were describing though :)
1307 2010-12-13 10:15:12 <dsg> That would make the accounts system useful to me
1308 2010-12-13 10:15:22 <MT`AwAy> dsg: I'll do something like that in my bitcoin client ;)
1309 2010-12-13 10:16:05 <Rhonda> Hmm, does bitcoin work with gnutls too? Does bitcoin has the usual gpl-openssl-license-incompatible issue?
1310 2010-12-13 10:16:49 <MT`AwAy> Rhonda: no,  yes
1311 2010-12-13 10:16:53 <MT`AwAy> ah no
1312 2010-12-13 10:16:55 <MT`AwAy> no, no
1313 2010-12-13 10:16:58 <MT`AwAy> bitcoin is not gpl at all
1314 2010-12-13 10:17:14 <MT`AwAy> so it can be distributed as binary without breaking gpl
1315 2010-12-13 10:17:19 <MT`AwAy> (while linked to openssl)
1316 2010-12-13 10:17:21 <Rhonda> But doesn't it link in gpl stuff?
1317 2010-12-13 10:17:32 <Rhonda> boost and glib comes to mind?
1318 2010-12-13 10:17:42 <MT`AwAy> Rhonda: boost is not gpl
1319 2010-12-13 10:17:52 <MT`AwAy> glib has an exception so you can link it
1320 2010-12-13 10:18:03 <MT`AwAy> glibc*
1321 2010-12-13 10:18:49 <Rhonda> And libdb? :)
1322 2010-12-13 10:19:07 <Rhonda> Hmm, I don't see a link exception in glib?
1323 2010-12-13 10:19:29 <MT`AwAy> Rhonda: glibc is a "system library", the exception is part of gpl itself
1324 2010-12-13 10:19:35 <MT`AwAy> libdb is not gpl as far as I know
1325 2010-12-13 10:19:42 <Rhonda> not glibc
1326 2010-12-13 10:19:44 <Rhonda> glib
1327 2010-12-13 10:19:48 <Rhonda> :)
1328 2010-12-13 10:19:54 <MT`AwAy> (Sleepycat License)
1329 2010-12-13 10:19:57 <Rhonda> and glib though is LGPL anyway, so …
1330 2010-12-13 10:19:59 <MT`AwAy> Rhonda: bitcoin uses glib ?
1331 2010-12-13 10:20:06 <MT`AwAy> well, if it's LGPL it's fine
1332 2010-12-13 10:20:09 <Rhonda> It seems to require it for compiling, yes.
1333 2010-12-13 10:20:44 <Rhonda> libdb is BSD licensed, so no troubles neither
1334 2010-12-13 10:20:46 <Rhonda> Good :)
1335 2010-12-13 10:21:01 <thrashaholic> its not like it was written yesterday
1336 2010-12-13 10:21:14 <Rhonda> Would be strange that the Berkely DB isn't licensed under the Berkley Software Distribution license. :P
1337 2010-12-13 10:21:43 <MT`AwAy> Rhonda: as far as I know the only problem comes from the JSON lib
1338 2010-12-13 10:22:18 <Rhonda> There are a lot of embedded library codes from what I was told, yes.
1339 2010-12-13 10:22:39 <Rhonda> oh yes, json lib license I've heard evil stuff about
1340 2010-12-13 10:22:42 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1341 2010-12-13 10:22:51 <MT`AwAy> I don't know anything about it
1342 2010-12-13 10:23:02 <MT`AwAy> and for my bitcoin client I wrote the json generation myself, took a few minutes
1343 2010-12-13 10:23:02 <MT`AwAy> :D
1344 2010-12-13 10:23:45 <thrashaholic> serialisation is the easy part ;)
1345 2010-12-13 10:25:03 <MT`AwAy> serialisation is really easy
1346 2010-12-13 10:25:12 <MT`AwAy> and because I was lazy, I left deserialization to Qt
1347 2010-12-13 10:25:17 <MT`AwAy> (for now)
1348 2010-12-13 10:25:41 <MT`AwAy> https://bitcoin.in/forum/index.php/topic,6.msg34.html#msg34
1349 2010-12-13 10:25:58 elgee has quit (lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|Read error: Operation timed out)
1350 2010-12-13 10:26:01 satamusic has joined
1351 2010-12-13 10:26:06 <thrashaholic> only a fool would rewrite that
1352 2010-12-13 10:26:19 elgee has joined
1353 2010-12-13 10:26:21 Stephen_ has joined
1354 2010-12-13 10:26:22 * MT`AwAy likes rewriting stuff
1355 2010-12-13 10:26:27 Stephen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1356 2010-12-13 10:26:33 <MT`AwAy> then distribute the resulting code under free license, such as WTFPL
1357 2010-12-13 10:26:52 <thrashaholic> hehe
1358 2010-12-13 10:26:52 zzop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1359 2010-12-13 10:26:57 <thrashaholic> good thing you own your own company
1360 2010-12-13 10:27:21 <thrashaholic> i'd fire someone who decided to write their own json parsing from scratch
1361 2010-12-13 10:27:32 <MT`AwAy> :D
1362 2010-12-13 10:27:40 <MT`AwAy> I even have a project for writing my own os from scratch
1363 2010-12-13 10:27:51 zzop has joined
1364 2010-12-13 10:27:53 <MT`AwAy> (didn't have much time to progress on that during the past 2 years)
1365 2010-12-13 10:28:02 <thrashaholic> yeah, not surprising ;P
1366 2010-12-13 10:29:02 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|so does Satoshi Nakamoto hang out in here too?
1367 2010-12-13 10:29:19 <Stephen_> hmm, ok, another question:
1368 2010-12-13 10:29:20 RazielZ has joined
1369 2010-12-13 10:31:53 Stephen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1370 2010-12-13 10:31:54 <MT`AwAy> elgee|lappy: no
1371 2010-12-13 10:32:10 <MT`AwAy> elgee|lappy: well, maybe, but since nobody knows his identity we would never know
1372 2010-12-13 10:32:45 Stephen has joined
1373 2010-12-13 10:32:54 * Stephen smacks his router
1374 2010-12-13 10:33:17 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: we stopped at "<Stephen_> hmm, ok, another question:"
1375 2010-12-13 10:33:19 <Stephen> i've got it down to hunting down wherever this "-no-ec" flag is on openssl
1376 2010-12-13 10:33:21 <Stephen> hunting it now
1377 2010-12-13 10:38:23 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|MT`AwAy: thx. I was curious whether he published his paper at an institution or business
1378 2010-12-13 10:38:27 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|or solo
1379 2010-12-13 10:39:06 <noagendamarket> Satoshi is an international man of mystery
1380 2010-12-13 10:40:22 <MT`AwAy> elgee|lappy: does "shady individual" counts?
1381 2010-12-13 10:40:31 <MT`AwAy> xD
1382 2010-12-13 10:40:38 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|does that not bother anybody?
1383 2010-12-13 10:40:41 <MT`AwAy> we don't know anything about Satoshi, except that he speaks english
1384 2010-12-13 10:40:46 <noagendamarket> no
1385 2010-12-13 10:40:52 <MT`AwAy> elgee|lappy: well, bitcoin is opensource, if you have doubts check for yourself
1386 2010-12-13 10:41:31 <MT`AwAy> and if you're not satisfied, find doc (like http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoins_draft_spec_0_0_1 ) and build your own bitcoin client
1387 2010-12-13 10:41:31 zzop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1388 2010-12-13 10:41:54 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|hrmm.. okay :) (thanks for the answers btw) Next question. What's the purpose of the irc client in bitcoin?
1389 2010-12-13 10:42:15 zzop has joined
1390 2010-12-13 10:42:21 <MT`AwAy> elgee|lappy: finding nodes to connect to
1391 2010-12-13 10:42:25 <Stephen> I found what I was looking for :-)
1392 2010-12-13 10:42:49 <Stephen> ./configure enable-ecdsa linux-x86_64
1393 2010-12-13 10:42:59 <Stephen> that should make openssl play nice
1394 2010-12-13 10:43:11 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|MT`AwAy: i have been. it's been very interesting.
1395 2010-12-13 10:43:13 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|ahh okay
1396 2010-12-13 10:43:16 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: openssl can be tricky
1397 2010-12-13 10:43:31 <Stephen> eh, any package with this many flags can get tricky
1398 2010-12-13 10:43:59 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|i suppose in following the project over the last little while, it seems a criticism that is often levelled is the lack of external validation. I was just curious about some of that
1399 2010-12-13 10:44:13 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|I suppose a reclusive founder probably doesn't help. But an interesting project nontheless
1400 2010-12-13 10:44:19 <Stephen> bitcoin would see a boom in traffic if it were in a yum repository
1401 2010-12-13 10:44:33 <Stephen> bitcoind + aws = massive farms
1402 2010-12-13 10:44:43 <Amiga4000> not yum, .deb
1403 2010-12-13 10:44:46 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: I'm planning for rpm/deb packages for my bitcoin client once I'm finished
1404 2010-12-13 10:45:03 <MT`AwAy> (I'll build those with chroots with the appropriate distributions)
1405 2010-12-13 10:45:06 <Stephen> to be clear, I love debian/ubuntu
1406 2010-12-13 10:45:15 <Stephen> They just didn't suit this setup
1407 2010-12-13 10:45:33 <MT`AwAy> well, I'm going to code my own irc client now :)
1408 2010-12-13 10:45:48 <MT`AwAy> just need to modify the qclient class so it can find its own ip
1409 2010-12-13 10:45:54 <Stephen> I'm actually kind of interested in hollowing out the inside of one of these instances and throwing the most minimal server I can at it.
1410 2010-12-13 10:46:46 <Stephen> and for that, we'd need gentoo or something more flexible.
1411 2010-12-13 10:47:09 <Stephen> What do you sat guys? Most minimal *nix OS you'd run in a production environment?
1412 2010-12-13 10:47:56 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: try DSL ?
1413 2010-12-13 10:48:06 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|what is considered a 'complete' block count atm?
1414 2010-12-13 10:48:06 <MT`AwAy> (and remove the X11/gui part)
1415 2010-12-13 10:48:12 <MT`AwAy> ;;bc,stats
1416 2010-12-13 10:48:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97336 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1447 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 21 hours, 55 minutes, and 34 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13812.14969561
1417 2010-12-13 10:48:18 <MT`AwAy> elgee|lappy: 97336
1418 2010-12-13 10:48:38 <Stephen> DSL is wonderful, though I don't think I'd run it on a server
1419 2010-12-13 10:48:50 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: take it and tweak it ;)
1420 2010-12-13 10:48:52 <Stephen> My experience with it has been as a tinyos for old laptops
1421 2010-12-13 10:49:08 <Stephen> MT`AwAy: Your remind me of my uncle
1422 2010-12-13 10:49:08 <MT`AwAy> either that or look at linux distributions such as openwrt
1423 2010-12-13 10:49:31 <Stephen> He walked me through my first build of Slackware over the phone while watching a movie
1424 2010-12-13 10:49:40 <MT`AwAy> :D
1425 2010-12-13 10:50:05 <Stephen> openwrt... hmm... always thought of that as router firmware, but I see your point
1426 2010-12-13 10:50:26 <MT`AwAy> openwrt is a linux distro using ipkg packages
1427 2010-12-13 10:50:39 <MT`AwAy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipkg
1428 2010-12-13 10:50:50 <Stephen> ran into that last week
1429 2010-12-13 10:51:06 <MT`AwAy> gentoo's portage tree is like 2GB, that doesn't go well with "minimal"
1430 2010-12-13 10:51:09 <Stephen> was looking at overwriting the OS on my FiOS router
1431 2010-12-13 10:51:13 <Stephen> heh
1432 2010-12-13 10:51:39 <Stephen> "This downloads the portage tree, now go eat dinner Stephen".
1433 2010-12-13 10:51:52 <Stephen> Reminicing, sorry
1434 2010-12-13 10:52:04 <MT`AwAy> :D
1435 2010-12-13 10:52:26 <MT`AwAy> cd /usr; curl <path to portage snapshot> | tar xP
1436 2010-12-13 10:52:31 <Stephen> Anyway, while I'm here, any PHP5 & Javascript developers who would like another project to work on, hit me up
1437 2010-12-13 10:52:35 <MT`AwAy> (or was it p ?)
1438 2010-12-13 10:52:38 <Stephen> I could use another hand
1439 2010-12-13 10:52:44 <Stephen> Dude, I can't remember
1440 2010-12-13 10:52:49 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: I'm php 5.3.0 but got my hands full)
1441 2010-12-13 10:52:50 <Stephen> I was in highschool at the time
1442 2010-12-13 10:52:58 <MT`AwAy> p
1443 2010-12-13 10:53:19 k0mp0 has joined
1444 2010-12-13 10:53:23 <Stephen> My 2nd became a father, so I lost him for an indefinite period
1445 2010-12-13 10:53:24 <k0mp0> hellooo
1446 2010-12-13 10:53:37 <Stephen> hola k0mp0
1447 2010-12-13 10:53:48 <k0mp0> great idea
1448 2010-12-13 10:53:52 <k0mp0> p2p currency
1449 2010-12-13 10:53:53 <k0mp0> :D
1450 2010-12-13 10:54:01 <k0mp0> i've got a few questions
1451 2010-12-13 10:54:09 * Stephen points at MT`AwAy
1452 2010-12-13 10:54:10 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: have you read the wiki ?
1453 2010-12-13 10:54:12 <Stephen> Wasn't my idea
1454 2010-12-13 10:54:20 <MT`AwAy> wasn't mine either
1455 2010-12-13 10:54:25 <k0mp0> 1) i run peerblock, do i really need to unblock some of the IPs that bitcoin needs to connect to?
1456 2010-12-13 10:54:42 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: you can select some nodes from the wiki
1457 2010-12-13 10:54:46 <k0mp0> 2) can devs type '100000' into their account and go on a spending spree?
1458 2010-12-13 10:54:47 <k0mp0> :)
1459 2010-12-13 10:54:59 <Stephen> k0mp0: Only if you spend with me.
1460 2010-12-13 10:55:01 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=fallback_nodes <- the nodes there are supposed to be rather stable
1461 2010-12-13 10:55:15 <[Noodles]> 2) no
1462 2010-12-13 10:55:16 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: 2) no, the other nodes wouldn't agree
1463 2010-12-13 10:55:21 <k0mp0> ah nice
1464 2010-12-13 10:55:31 <k0mp0> i'll have a read, thanks :)
1465 2010-12-13 10:55:33 <[Noodles]> mornin' bitcoinerz
1466 2010-12-13 10:55:57 <Stephen> So, here's a good question
1467 2010-12-13 10:55:59 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: you can take the "MagicalTux" ones (those are mine), they are only stopped for a few minutes at each bitcoin upgrade
1468 2010-12-13 10:56:14 <Stephen> Let's say you have a transaction in your DB that does not agree with the network
1469 2010-12-13 10:56:27 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: it won't make it into a block and will never get confirmed
1470 2010-12-13 10:56:39 <Stephen> Will this transaction eventually be removed from your node, or would it sit there indefinitely, never spreading?
1471 2010-12-13 10:56:43 <MT`AwAy> (and your bitcoin client is supposed to drop it)
1472 2010-12-13 10:56:45 <Amiga4000> btw, as I see the page, does "mapaddress" only accept .onion or any format?
1473 2010-12-13 10:56:50 <MT`AwAy> (I don't know how the code handles that exactly)
1474 2010-12-13 10:56:52 <k0mp0> 3) can I force bitcoin to keep using my cpu?
1475 2010-12-13 10:57:00 <k0mp0> to use all cpu power
1476 2010-12-13 10:57:04 <MT`AwAy> Amiga4000: mapaddress is not bitcoin config but tor config
1477 2010-12-13 10:57:06 <Stephen> k0mp0 : What OS?
1478 2010-12-13 10:57:12 <k0mp0> XP 32
1479 2010-12-13 10:57:16 <Amiga4000> ok, thats not suitable for I2P.
1480 2010-12-13 10:57:35 <k0mp0> i could run win7 64 or ubuntu if needed
1481 2010-12-13 10:57:42 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: 3) bitcoin in generation mode runs at low priority and tries to use all the cpu, the os will manage the rest
1482 2010-12-13 10:58:12 <k0mp0> i guess i could change priority?
1483 2010-12-13 10:58:13 <MT`AwAy> Amiga4000: you can run I2P nodes if you want, unfortunately tor seems to have a larger userbase, hence the amount of nodes already available
1484 2010-12-13 10:58:14 <Stephen> k0mp0: Keep other processes low, and set priorities and affinities. It'd be a pain if it's an everyday use machine, but it could be done
1485 2010-12-13 10:58:28 <k0mp0> ok
1486 2010-12-13 10:58:30 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: changing priority will just slow down your toher aps
1487 2010-12-13 10:58:35 <Amiga4000> MT`AwAy: sure I can run, but connection is still a problem so far.
1488 2010-12-13 10:58:35 <k0mp0> mm
1489 2010-12-13 10:58:36 <Stephen> You have to remember there's more to processor priority than a setting
1490 2010-12-13 10:58:45 <Stephen> it's in the code ;-)
1491 2010-12-13 10:58:45 <k0mp0> ok
1492 2010-12-13 10:58:46 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: anyway with a cpu your chances of generating a block are quite low
1493 2010-12-13 10:59:02 * Stephen agrees
1494 2010-12-13 10:59:03 <k0mp0> with an overclocked 920?
1495 2010-12-13 10:59:09 <k0mp0> quad core , 4ghz
1496 2010-12-13 10:59:13 <Stephen> I've been running for months without generating a block
1497 2010-12-13 10:59:19 <k0mp0> hm
1498 2010-12-13 10:59:22 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: you'll probably get ~10000 khash/sec ?
1499 2010-12-13 10:59:25 <k0mp0> what is it actually doing?
1500 2010-12-13 10:59:29 <MT`AwAy> ;;bc,calc 10000
1501 2010-12-13 10:59:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 8 weeks, 4 days, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 28 seconds
1502 2010-12-13 10:59:38 <Amiga4000> a hexcore AMD does ~7100 khash/sec
1503 2010-12-13 10:59:38 <Stephen> Spitting lottery numbers at the caller
1504 2010-12-13 10:59:51 <k0mp0> so it's not even real work?
1505 2010-12-13 11:00:00 <Stephen> it's real work
1506 2010-12-13 11:00:03 <genjix> ;;bc,totalbc
1507 2010-12-13 11:00:03 <gribble> 4866800.00000000
1508 2010-12-13 11:00:06 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
1509 2010-12-13 11:00:06 <k0mp0> i mean pointless work
1510 2010-12-13 11:00:07 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.2275,"low":0.21,"vol":3667,"buy":0.21,"sell":0.22,"last":0.224}}
1511 2010-12-13 11:00:13 <k0mp0> no one benefits other than me if i run it?
1512 2010-12-13 11:00:15 <Stephen> but on a somewhat arbitrary problem
1513 2010-12-13 11:00:26 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: k0mp0 if you run it long enough, the whole network benefits from it
1514 2010-12-13 11:00:28 <Stephen> good question..
1515 2010-12-13 11:00:30 zzop has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1516 2010-12-13 11:00:31 <k0mp0> ah
1517 2010-12-13 11:00:35 <Stephen> Are block results used in any way?
1518 2010-12-13 11:00:42 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: only when you hit
1519 2010-12-13 11:00:46 <[Noodles]> everyone benefits
1520 2010-12-13 11:00:53 <k0mp0> hm ok
1521 2010-12-13 11:00:56 <Stephen> Ah, collision detection record, yeah?
1522 2010-12-13 11:00:56 <genjix> k0mp0: generators process transactions. and you get paid by generating coins.
1523 2010-12-13 11:00:57 <[Noodles]> everyone in the bitcoin-network
1524 2010-12-13 11:01:00 <MT`AwAy> what's important is the global hashes/sec generated by the network at whole
1525 2010-12-13 11:01:00 <k0mp0> how does everyone benefit then?
1526 2010-12-13 11:01:08 <MT`AwAy> the more there are, the more reliable blocks are
1527 2010-12-13 11:01:15 <Stephen> Basically we're generating money by trying to defeat encryption
1528 2010-12-13 11:01:25 <[Noodles]> generation creates blocks, blocks handle everyones transactions
1529 2010-12-13 11:01:26 <Stephen> As we find the flaws, we report them
1530 2010-12-13 11:01:27 <k0mp0> ahhh
1531 2010-12-13 11:01:36 <MT`AwAy> Stephen: not really
1532 2010-12-13 11:02:00 <k0mp0> is it generating a stronger encryption password?
1533 2010-12-13 11:02:06 <k0mp0> kind of?
1534 2010-12-13 11:02:17 <[Noodles]> no, just a simple hash
1535 2010-12-13 11:02:20 <[Noodles]> ^.^
1536 2010-12-13 11:02:27 <k0mp0> ok
1537 2010-12-13 11:02:41 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1538 2010-12-13 11:03:01 <elgee> lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|MT`AwAy: thanks
1539 2010-12-13 11:03:08 <MT`AwAy> you need to generate a sha256 hash which value is lower than an agreed value (which is computed based on the network's hash generation rate)
1540 2010-12-13 11:03:08 satamusic has joined
1541 2010-12-13 11:03:09 <k0mp0> At the moment (December 2010) it would take a year on average to generate 50 coins with a typical PC.
1542 2010-12-13 11:03:09 <genjix> never ending story of money flows in the economy = block chain
1543 2010-12-13 11:03:28 <roberthl> what is the purpose of the "transaction fee"
1544 2010-12-13 11:03:34 <MT`AwAy> k0mp0: if you have a graphic card, you can use it to generate faster
1545 2010-12-13 11:03:37 <[Noodles]> where typical pc == a CPU
1546 2010-12-13 11:03:48 <MT`AwAy> roberthl: avoid abuse & make generation profitable once we reach the max coin coint
1547 2010-12-13 11:03:49 <MT`AwAy> count*
1548 2010-12-13 11:03:52 <genjix> anyone trading PS for BTC?
1549 2010-12-13 11:04:01 <[Noodles]> whats PS?
1550 2010-12-13 11:04:02 <noagendamarket> roberthl it supports the network
1551 2010-12-13 11:04:08 <[Noodles]> oh, pokerstars
1552 2010-12-13 11:04:09 <roberthl>  who gets the transaction fee?
1553 2010-12-13 11:04:12 <[Noodles]> got it ^.^
1554 2010-12-13 11:04:19 <genjix> or at least PokerStars for Liberty Reserve or mtgox$?
1555 2010-12-13 11:04:20 <noagendamarket> the miners
1556 2010-12-13 11:04:32 <[Noodles]> the generator who creates the block gets the fee
1557 2010-12-13 11:04:38 <genjix> [Noodles]: yep shoulda been more clear :p
1558 2010-12-13 11:04:52 <k0mp0> does that fee raise with interest?
1559 2010-12-13 11:04:53 <noagendamarket> Has anyone thought of setting up an exchange inside second life?
1560 2010-12-13 11:05:02 <k0mp0> or is it a solid fee
1561 2010-12-13 11:05:14 <MT`AwAy> roberthl: whoever generates the next block
1562 2010-12-13 11:05:15 <genjix> noagendamarket: that's a great idea.
1563 2010-12-13 11:05:17 <[Noodles]> if you generate and include a transaction in your block that a fee has been payed for, you get the fee
1564 2010-12-13 11:05:25 <MT`AwAy> noagendamarket: yes, look at forum
1565 2010-12-13 11:05:34 <k0mp0> ok
1566 2010-12-13 11:05:47 <[Noodles]> noagendamarket:  i made the secondlife-exchange
1567 2010-12-13 11:05:52 <roberthl> right, once all coins have been generated who gets the transaction fee?
1568 2010-12-13 11:06:00 <[Noodles]> or am still working on it
1569 2010-12-13 11:06:05 <Stephen> back later folks
1570 2010-12-13 11:06:05 <noagendamarket> cool
1571 2010-12-13 11:06:11 Stephen has quit (Quit: Nova Initia: Rebuild the Underground! http://www.nova-initia.com)
1572 2010-12-13 11:06:20 <[Noodles]> need some L$? ^.^
1573 2010-12-13 11:06:58 <noagendamarket> no but thanks for offering
1574 2010-12-13 11:07:01 <MT`AwAy> [20:04:42] <roberthl> right, once all coins have been generated who gets the transaction fee? <- whoever generate blocks, instead of getting "new" coins they'll only receive fees
1575 2010-12-13 11:08:28 <genjix> nanotube: would you consider a paypal exchange with me?
1576 2010-12-13 11:08:43 <genjix> from your posts on otc
1577 2010-12-13 11:09:45 <genjix> i'll buy 2272 btc for $500
1578 2010-12-13 11:10:41 <MT`AwAy> mh
1579 2010-12-13 11:10:44 <MT`AwAy> I don't have that much yet :D
1580 2010-12-13 11:10:57 <MT`AwAy> oh, to nanotube, sorry
1581 2010-12-13 11:10:58 <MT`AwAy> xD
1582 2010-12-13 11:11:04 <Phoebus> Anyone want to send me a fraction, so I'm not at 0.0? :P
1583 2010-12-13 11:11:05 * MT`AwAy is coding too much
1584 2010-12-13 11:11:09 <genjix> MT`AwAy: how much do you have? ill trade with you too
1585 2010-12-13 11:11:16 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: ask https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
1586 2010-12-13 11:11:19 <genjix> @0.22
1587 2010-12-13 11:11:23 <Phoebus> 0.0000000001 would do lol.
1588 2010-12-13 11:11:25 <Phoebus> Ah cool.
1589 2010-12-13 11:11:44 <MT`AwAy> genjix: well in fact for now I'm keeping some coins so I can pay people who accept to work for me ;)
1590 2010-12-13 11:11:51 <genjix> ok np
1591 2010-12-13 11:11:52 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1592 2010-12-13 11:11:58 <genjix> what work are you offering?
1593 2010-12-13 11:12:02 <Phoebus> zomg, awesome - talk about instant
1594 2010-12-13 11:12:12 <MT`AwAy> mainly looking for web designers who can also do the html part
1595 2010-12-13 11:12:31 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: it'll take ~30 minutes until the transaction is "confirmed"
1596 2010-12-13 11:12:47 <Phoebus> That's ok.
1597 2010-12-13 11:13:28 <genjix> what price you offering? (not saying i can do it, but just a possibility)
1598 2010-12-13 11:13:37 <genjix> http://genjix.cz.cc <-- that's my other site
1599 2010-12-13 11:13:41 <MT`AwAy> genjix: I discuss a price depending on each project
1600 2010-12-13 11:13:55 <MT`AwAy> depending on the work to be done/etc
1601 2010-12-13 11:14:23 <MT`AwAy> genjix: url is broken here
1602 2010-12-13 11:14:34 <genjix> yep just noticed :p
1603 2010-12-13 11:14:49 <genjix> let me fix that
1604 2010-12-13 11:15:51 <genjix> anyone maybe in january i might ask if you have some work (depends on whether i get funding for my current project ;)
1605 2010-12-13 11:16:15 <Phoebus> Soo, I have 1 cent worth of btc >.<
1606 2010-12-13 11:16:25 <arcatan> what's bitcoin's data directory on OS X?
1607 2010-12-13 11:16:41 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: you can't do much with it :p
1608 2010-12-13 11:16:48 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: in library/application something/Bitcoin
1609 2010-12-13 11:16:49 <MT`AwAy> arg
1610 2010-12-13 11:16:51 <MT`AwAy> arcatan: *
1611 2010-12-13 11:17:00 <arcatan> okay, thanks
1612 2010-12-13 11:17:08 <MT`AwAy> (usual data path for mac apps)
1613 2010-12-13 11:17:18 <genjix> MT`AwAy: http://genjix.freehostia.com/#esperanto
1614 2010-12-13 11:17:56 <MT`AwAy> that's... contrasted :D
1615 2010-12-13 11:18:06 <genjix> and you know my other site http://pastecoin.com/
1616 2010-12-13 11:19:59 <MT`AwAy> :p
1617 2010-12-13 11:22:02 <Phoebus> genjix, uploaded a nice picture for giggles, and as a test. 0.5 btc.
1618 2010-12-13 11:22:13 RichardG has joined
1619 2010-12-13 11:22:27 RichardG has quit (Changing host)
1620 2010-12-13 11:22:27 RichardG has joined
1621 2010-12-13 11:22:28 <Phoebus> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=75 :D
1622 2010-12-13 11:24:16 <arcatan> oh, interesting concept.
1623 2010-12-13 11:26:32 genjix has left ()
1624 2010-12-13 11:29:01 <Phoebus> Woah, someone bought my photo <3.
1625 2010-12-13 11:29:07 <da2ce7> wasm
1626 2010-12-13 11:29:09 <da2ce7> was me
1627 2010-12-13 11:29:22 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1628 2010-12-13 11:29:22 <Phoebus> Cheers dude, if you want I'll send you the color one as well.
1629 2010-12-13 11:29:44 <Phoebus> B&W was done at the camera sensor.
1630 2010-12-13 11:30:59 <Phoebus> Now, I wonder if I could modify gallery2 so that people can buy directly from there.
1631 2010-12-13 11:31:19 <da2ce7> ah, ok, the silly pastecoin site is annoying, after you close the window it asks your to re-purchase the file. It should rember the active link with a cookie
1632 2010-12-13 11:31:52 darrob has joined
1633 2010-12-13 11:32:02 <Phoebus> tell genjix, I think it's his.
1634 2010-12-13 11:43:36 Akiraa has joined
1635 2010-12-13 11:45:00 <Akiraa> What is your local electricity cost for a bitcoin? Considering a 200W midrange machine running for a full year (the time now needed to generate a block), at 13 cents per kWh, it works out to $228 per block or around $4 per BTC, way above the 20 cents at which it is trading
1636 2010-12-13 11:45:06 <Akiraa> http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
1637 2010-12-13 11:45:12 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 400000
1638 2010-12-13 11:45:12 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1639 2010-12-13 11:45:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 32 minutes, and 35 seconds
1640 2010-12-13 11:46:21 <Akiraa> now generating 2.7K hashes per second without GPU acceleration
1641 2010-12-13 11:46:21 <[Noodles]> Akiraa : generating on CPUs is NOT efficient, dont expect to make any profit
1642 2010-12-13 11:46:48 <Akiraa> I need to reduce my costs by 20 times
1643 2010-12-13 11:47:15 <thrashaholic> we just need to have a disclaimer somewhere about this
1644 2010-12-13 11:47:21 <[Noodles]> as said, CPU generating is not efficient at all, if you generate for profit only, go get a decent GPU
1645 2010-12-13 11:47:24 <thrashaholic> we go through this exact discussion 20 times a day
1646 2010-12-13 11:47:50 <Akiraa> So what is your local per-BTC cost, for a comparison?
1647 2010-12-13 11:47:59 <[Noodles]> even generating on Nvidia isn't profitable anymore
1648 2010-12-13 11:48:01 <doublec> wow, the pool is hitting 350-400MHash
1649 2010-12-13 11:48:03 <thrashaholic> unless you want to do a purpose built rig chances are generation is not worth it.
1650 2010-12-13 11:48:08 <doublec> someone must have brought a better GPU online
1651 2010-12-13 11:48:30 <Akiraa> multiply 30.56 with your local electricity costs in USD
1652 2010-12-13 11:48:42 <Akiraa> say for 200W continuous power for a year
1653 2010-12-13 11:49:02 <da2ce7> the pool is just over 1000 GHash/s
1654 2010-12-13 11:49:05 <Akiraa> electricity cost as USD per kWh
1655 2010-12-13 11:49:14 <da2ce7> *no 100GHash/s
1656 2010-12-13 11:49:25 <Phoebus> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2240.0 :D
1657 2010-12-13 11:49:27 <bitbot> Some pictures 'for sale', for giggles, a couple of good ones too.
1658 2010-12-13 11:49:33 <Phoebus> My first bt-tradem woot.
1659 2010-12-13 11:49:45 <Phoebus> btcraze.
1660 2010-12-13 11:50:20 <doublec> incrementing numbers is odd for a upload/download site
1661 2010-12-13 11:50:35 <doublec> I guess uploaders want to get paid so it doesn't matter if people move through the numbers to browse
1662 2010-12-13 11:50:56 <Phoebus> Yeah...
1663 2010-12-13 11:51:11 <doublec> it does make it easier to map uploads to people
1664 2010-12-13 11:51:30 <doublec> look at one or two either side of what people post and assume they might be from the same person
1665 2010-12-13 11:51:51 <Akiraa> I think some folks have access to academic/enterprise servers and surreptitiously installed a BTC daemon on them
1666 2010-12-13 11:51:57 <[Noodles]> Akiraa: there's only one way to be profitable running CPUs and that's free electricity
1667 2010-12-13 11:52:05 <Phoebus> hehe
1668 2010-12-13 11:52:24 engla has joined
1669 2010-12-13 11:52:41 <Akiraa> I thought about a solar powered server, but the whole installation would never amortize
1670 2010-12-13 11:52:52 darrob has joined
1671 2010-12-13 11:53:03 <[Noodles]> get a nice ATI card
1672 2010-12-13 11:53:23 <da2ce7> ATI yummy cards
1673 2010-12-13 11:53:29 <[Noodles]> or generate for fun, or for the network
1674 2010-12-13 11:53:34 <da2ce7> and a BIG powersupply.
1675 2010-12-13 11:53:42 <[Noodles]> depends on the card
1676 2010-12-13 11:54:08 <Akiraa> at a cost of $300, it'd have to generate 75 BTC to pay for itself, excluding electricity costs
1677 2010-12-13 11:54:13 <[Noodles]> 5570 doesnt even need a power-connector and still isnt that bad
1678 2010-12-13 11:54:21 <thrashaholic> 75?
1679 2010-12-13 11:54:26 <thrashaholic> your math is off me thinks
1680 2010-12-13 11:54:27 <Akiraa> no, 1500
1681 2010-12-13 11:54:32 <thrashaholic> there you go.
1682 2010-12-13 11:55:05 <da2ce7> akiraa, you were getting a bit ahead of yourself!
1683 2010-12-13 11:55:30 <da2ce7> :)
1684 2010-12-13 11:55:32 <Akiraa> a good card draws 100-200W, right?
1685 2010-12-13 11:55:54 <da2ce7> um a 5870 draws arround 250
1686 2010-12-13 11:56:14 <da2ce7> 5850 draws arround 200
1687 2010-12-13 11:56:19 <Akiraa> and you may want to overclock to get maximum efficiency
1688 2010-12-13 11:56:26 <da2ce7> and 5770 150
1689 2010-12-13 11:56:42 satamusic has joined
1690 2010-12-13 11:56:42 <[Noodles]> 5570=<50W, 5770=100W, 5850=150W, 5970=300W
1691 2010-12-13 11:57:27 <Akiraa> the advantage is that hash breaking is completely parallelizable
1692 2010-12-13 11:57:36 <[Noodles]> here's a nice overview, brought to you by ArtForz -> http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
1693 2010-12-13 11:57:55 <da2ce7> * I think that those numbers are optimisitc. In my exprence it has always been more that TWP.  as bitcoin uses arround 95% of the GPU, while games use arround 70%
1694 2010-12-13 11:58:04 BitCoinz has joined
1695 2010-12-13 11:58:07 <Phoebus> So, ati wins.
1696 2010-12-13 11:58:20 <[Noodles]> its more like Nvidia sucks
1697 2010-12-13 11:58:23 <[Noodles]> ^.^
1698 2010-12-13 11:58:23 <Phoebus> :P
1699 2010-12-13 11:58:34 <Phoebus> They have better marketing though.
1700 2010-12-13 11:58:38 <Phoebus> Sadly.
1701 2010-12-13 11:58:55 <thrashaholic> they were the linux darlings for years too
1702 2010-12-13 11:58:57 <altamic> OT question: any linux guru can point me to choose between ArchLinux, Slackware, fedora, debian? Target: minimalism, consistency
1703 2010-12-13 11:59:02 <thrashaholic> arch
1704 2010-12-13 11:59:06 <thrashaholic> qed.
1705 2010-12-13 11:59:12 <da2ce7> nivida is way better for games, the have much better min frame rates.  ATI wins on avg frame rates.
1706 2010-12-13 11:59:16 <Akiraa> So what is your local electricity cost per BTC and graphics card amortization time?
1707 2010-12-13 11:59:20 <doublec> I like arch to
1708 2010-12-13 11:59:26 <Phoebus> So what happens in the 30 mins a transfer takes to confirm?
1709 2010-12-13 11:59:28 <[Noodles]> and no, da2ce7, that's not true, it's even a bit less mining, my overclocked hd5850 needs just about 130W
1710 2010-12-13 11:59:38 <doublec> although they can be a little bleeding edge at times
1711 2010-12-13 11:59:45 <[Noodles]> 100W at default clocks
1712 2010-12-13 11:59:49 <thrashaholic> depends on what repos you enable
1713 2010-12-13 11:59:56 <thrashaholic> just be careful when doing a system update :)
1714 2010-12-13 12:00:06 <da2ce7> hmm well maybe I just have crappy cards.
1715 2010-12-13 12:00:06 <thrashaholic> they don't hold your hand or check all 30000000 packages
1716 2010-12-13 12:00:18 <BitCoinz> Hi room
1717 2010-12-13 12:00:54 <doublec> I was running Arch on a 1st gen intel macbook and every other update would break the wifi and/or the video
1718 2010-12-13 12:01:26 <doublec> It seems better now though
1719 2010-12-13 12:01:32 <thrashaholic> that was like 10 years ago
1720 2010-12-13 12:01:34 <thrashaholic> lol
1721 2010-12-13 12:01:47 <altamic> gone ArchLinux
1722 2010-12-13 12:02:02 <altamic> deploying VM
1723 2010-12-13 12:02:27 <thrashaholic> besides, i much prefer the bsd init style that arch uses :)
1724 2010-12-13 12:02:45 <doublec> me too - and rolling updates
1725 2010-12-13 12:02:49 <thrashaholic> the other choices all immediately lose do to the minimalism requirement
1726 2010-12-13 12:02:54 <thrashaholic> due*
1727 2010-12-13 12:03:09 <altamic> I was already biased toward Arch
1728 2010-12-13 12:03:16 <thrashaholic> altamic: my suggestion is to get everything set up how you want - and then DO NOT UPGRADE
1729 2010-12-13 12:03:22 <thrashaholic> just upgrade what you know you need
1730 2010-12-13 12:03:28 <thrashaholic> but that advice goes for any system
1731 2010-12-13 12:03:29 <altamic> I am at this point
1732 2010-12-13 12:03:47 <altamic> I am drawing my ideal no nonsense
1733 2010-12-13 12:03:51 <altamic> VM
1734 2010-12-13 12:03:51 <thrashaholic> snapshots are great too since you're running a vm
1735 2010-12-13 12:04:09 <thrashaholic> arch is the perfect candidate in the linux world for a no nonsense vm :)
1736 2010-12-13 12:04:37 <thrashaholic> anyway
1737 2010-12-13 12:04:39 <altamic> ok ArchLinux 2009 x86 64-bit has been deployed
1738 2010-12-13 12:04:50 <altamic> now setting up ngnix + passenger
1739 2010-12-13 12:04:53 <thrashaholic> enjoy looking for your free lunches peeps, goodnight.
1740 2010-12-13 12:05:02 <BitCoinz> ArtForz?
1741 2010-12-13 12:05:08 <altamic> night
1742 2010-12-13 12:08:14 Akiraa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1743 2010-12-13 12:08:23 <BitCoinz> ArtForz is having lunch too i think
1744 2010-12-13 12:09:06 <da2ce7> :P well good night people, bed calls!  Good chatting with ya.  For those who are into economics: we need to think about the entire payment structure of BitDNS serves (transaction fees are agreed upon for inclusion in the block chain), RHorning may be bringing up some valid points.  I'll try and compose a more complete response tomorrow.
1745 2010-12-13 12:09:26 <Phoebus> Nite da2ce7  :)
1746 2010-12-13 12:11:28 mtgox has joined
1747 2010-12-13 12:12:34 elgee has quit (lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|Read error: Connection timed out)
1748 2010-12-13 12:13:09 elgee has joined
1749 2010-12-13 12:15:30 <Phoebus> Nite all btcrazies... :P
1750 2010-12-13 12:15:41 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Nature is being governed by consistent rational structure. To live in harmony with nature is to live rationally. To comprehend your position in the world and act wittingly.Unnatural is paralogism and peremptoriness. Truth doesn't exist to satisfy us.)
1751 2010-12-13 12:17:42 Xunie has quit (Disconnected by services)
1752 2010-12-13 12:18:14 Xunie` has joined
1753 2010-12-13 12:18:31 <BitCoinz> am i the only one from europe in here?
1754 2010-12-13 12:18:43 <[Noodles]> no, you are not
1755 2010-12-13 12:18:48 <Amiga4000> surely not
1756 2010-12-13 12:18:51 <BitCoinz> lol
1757 2010-12-13 12:19:23 <BitCoinz> netherlands here..and you guys?
1758 2010-12-13 12:19:36 <doublec> new zealand
1759 2010-12-13 12:20:08 <BitCoinz> crazy miners seem to be everywhere :D
1760 2010-12-13 12:21:10 genjixIII has joined
1761 2010-12-13 12:21:19 <genjixIII> ok
1762 2010-12-13 12:21:29 genjixIII has quit (Client Quit)
1763 2010-12-13 12:22:36 <BitCoinz> when is ArtForz usually present?
1764 2010-12-13 12:23:08 <Diablo-D3> he is omnipresent
1765 2010-12-13 12:23:14 <BitCoinz> lol
1766 2010-12-13 12:23:41 <BitCoinz> Only God is :P
1767 2010-12-13 12:24:02 <Diablo-D3> same difference
1768 2010-12-13 12:25:44 nelisky has joined
1769 2010-12-13 12:30:20 <BitCoinz> who has 4 Ati 5970 running here?
1770 2010-12-13 12:31:31 <BitCoinz> cuz i need some advise before i build a miner pc
1771 2010-12-13 12:32:00 <BitCoinz> and i dont want to waste money
1772 2010-12-13 12:32:09 <[Noodles]> 4? not many besides Art i guess ^.^
1773 2010-12-13 12:32:47 <BitCoinz> i know he has ^.^.
1774 2010-12-13 12:32:54 <noagendamarket> haha
1775 2010-12-13 12:32:58 <BitCoinz> lol
1776 2010-12-13 12:33:26 <edcba> you know you can buy bitcoins too ? :)
1777 2010-12-13 12:33:33 <BitCoinz> but he is away now lol
1778 2010-12-13 12:33:39 <BitCoinz> i know
1779 2010-12-13 12:33:47 <noagendamarket> are you buying everything to set that up?
1780 2010-12-13 12:34:21 <BitCoinz> i am gonna buy yes but wil start with 1 card
1781 2010-12-13 12:34:23 <noagendamarket> This is SPAAARTAA!
1782 2010-12-13 12:35:05 <Amiga4000> does bitcoin run on GPU?
1783 2010-12-13 12:35:14 <noagendamarket> hahah
1784 2010-12-13 12:35:20 <BitCoinz> lol
1785 2010-12-13 12:35:21 <noagendamarket> yes...
1786 2010-12-13 12:35:24 <BitCoinz> yeah
1787 2010-12-13 12:35:32 <arcatan> business idea: to cash with bitcoins, start selling bitcoin miner boxes to people
1788 2010-12-13 12:35:37 <noagendamarket> thats about all it runs on
1789 2010-12-13 12:36:02 <noagendamarket> well jjst sell the gpu slots
1790 2010-12-13 12:36:05 <Amiga4000> not just I got a few gforce 480 around...
1791 2010-12-13 12:36:24 engla has left ("bye")
1792 2010-12-13 12:37:03 <[Noodles]> Amiga4000: those likely are not profitable (depending on your kW/h price)
1793 2010-12-13 12:37:13 <Amiga4000> I do not pay for power
1794 2010-12-13 12:37:22 <[Noodles]> hook em up then
1795 2010-12-13 12:37:26 <Amiga4000> I just can use it for no cost
1796 2010-12-13 12:37:29 <noagendamarket> well that helps
1797 2010-12-13 12:37:36 <noagendamarket> lol
1798 2010-12-13 12:38:03 <[Noodles]> ~100Mhash/s per card
1799 2010-12-13 12:38:09 <BitCoinz> take in account that a miner pc produces a lot of heat
1800 2010-12-13 12:38:22 <BitCoinz> that lowers your energy bill
1801 2010-12-13 12:38:43 <BitCoinz> less gas consumption :P
1802 2010-12-13 12:38:58 <Amiga4000> just 2 480 in one system. but... we will see
1803 2010-12-13 12:40:03 <doublec> plug them into the pool and give it a boost :)
1804 2010-12-13 12:41:06 <[Noodles]> ;;bc,calc 200000
1805 2010-12-13 12:41:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 days, 1 hour, 5 minutes, and 10 seconds
1806 2010-12-13 12:41:18 jeff-bray has joined
1807 2010-12-13 12:43:41 <BitCoinz> that time is increasing  a lot i see
1808 2010-12-13 12:45:03 <RichardG> ;;bc,calc 636
1809 2010-12-13 12:45:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 636 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 years, 32 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 5 minutes, and 32 seconds
1810 2010-12-13 12:46:35 <jeff-bray> hi
1811 2010-12-13 12:46:42 <doublec> hi jeff-bray
1812 2010-12-13 12:46:51 <BitCoinz> ;;bc,calc 2500000
1813 2010-12-13 12:46:51 <doublec> ;;bc,calc 150
1814 2010-12-13 12:46:52 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 5 hours, 50 minutes, and 48 seconds
1815 2010-12-13 12:46:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 11 years, 6 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 18 minutes, and 42 seconds
1816 2010-12-13 12:47:00 <doublec> hmm, takes a while for my N900 to generate ;)
1817 2010-12-13 12:47:04 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1818 2010-12-13 12:47:07 <[Noodles]> hehe
1819 2010-12-13 12:47:34 satamusic has joined
1820 2010-12-13 12:47:36 <jeff-bray> how do we aquire bitcoins?
1821 2010-12-13 12:47:52 <BitCoinz> 50 coins every 6 ours..200 each day
1822 2010-12-13 12:48:14 <BitCoinz> 6000 a month
1823 2010-12-13 12:48:25 <doublec> jeff-bray, buying them is the aasiest
1824 2010-12-13 12:48:28 <[Noodles]> jeff-bray : buy them?
1825 2010-12-13 12:48:44 <[Noodles]> or offer services to earn them
1826 2010-12-13 12:49:15 <MT`AwAy> if you're happy with only 0.05 bitcoins, https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/ is the place
1827 2010-12-13 12:49:16 <[Noodles]> or build a freakin' big mining factory, to "produce" them
1828 2010-12-13 12:49:31 <doublec> Upload something to pastecoin.com that people might want to download and earn bitcoins per download
1829 2010-12-13 12:49:31 <BitCoinz>  i am gonna earn them
1830 2010-12-13 12:49:39 <jeff-bray> I got my .05 bitcoins thank you
1831 2010-12-13 12:49:51 <MT`AwAy> jeff-bray: if you want more, you have to buy them or earn them :)
1832 2010-12-13 12:50:04 <jeff-bray> doublec: thanks, I'll look at pastecoin
1833 2010-12-13 12:50:08 <doublec> gamble your 0.05 bitcoins in the cashcow casino
1834 2010-12-13 12:50:19 <doublec> cashcow.no-ip.org
1835 2010-12-13 12:50:26 <jeff-bray> doublec: they take coins that small?
1836 2010-12-13 12:50:38 <doublec> I'm pretty sure they do 0.01 bets on the roulette
1837 2010-12-13 12:50:42 * arcatan pastes his ebook 'How to earn a BitCoin fortune' to pastecoin.com
1838 2010-12-13 12:50:45 <doublec> but I might be wrong
1839 2010-12-13 12:50:55 <MT`AwAy> arcatan: don't forget pyramidal scheme
1840 2010-12-13 12:51:02 <arcatan> oh yeah, that one.
1841 2010-12-13 12:51:10 <doublec> hmm, we need a bitflipper site
1842 2010-12-13 12:51:14 <MT`AwAy> the #1 scheme of "make money on internet" books
1843 2010-12-13 12:51:18 <doublec> two people send coins, the server flips, winner take all
1844 2010-12-13 12:51:27 mndrix1 has joined
1845 2010-12-13 12:51:37 <doublec> bonus prize for most flips won in a row
1846 2010-12-13 12:51:45 <MT`AwAy> doublec: my bitcoin client's "sendfromaddress" would be useful for that
1847 2010-12-13 12:52:03 <MT`AwAy> (ie, if someone cheats and double spend, the resulting transaction dies too)
1848 2010-12-13 12:52:07 <doublec> if people want to send coins to me I'll flip and coin and let them know ;)
1849 2010-12-13 12:52:15 <MT`AwAy> doublec: address?
1850 2010-12-13 12:52:24 <BitCoinz> Noodles?
1851 2010-12-13 12:52:28 <doublec> 15ANK7qiV1mG8JimVTDjBce1XxCscj8iyX
1852 2010-12-13 12:52:38 <[Noodles]> huh?
1853 2010-12-13 12:52:41 <MT`AwAy> ddb90633d153fe07fbae6cfd9472e01748230d5d550985e518e68178686cd45a :D
1854 2010-12-13 12:52:46 <doublec> hehe
1855 2010-12-13 12:53:00 <BitCoinz> do you know about 5970 cards?
1856 2010-12-13 12:53:12 * [Noodles] shrugs
1857 2010-12-13 12:53:21 <[Noodles]> depends on what i need to know to know about
1858 2010-12-13 12:53:23 jeff-bray has left ()
1859 2010-12-13 12:53:36 <[Noodles]> what do you need to know?
1860 2010-12-13 12:54:01 <BitCoinz> there are different kinds, different prices and manufacturers
1861 2010-12-13 12:54:28 <BitCoinz> i was looking in the store
1862 2010-12-13 12:54:38 <doublec> MT`AwAy, If the last number of block's 97344's hash is frmo 0-4 I'll send you back double, if it's 5-9 I'll keep it. That'll be the flip.
1863 2010-12-13 12:54:56 <[Noodles]> uhm, no, i'v actually no idea about brands
1864 2010-12-13 12:54:57 mndrix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1865 2010-12-13 12:54:57 <MT`AwAy> doublec: ok :D
1866 2010-12-13 12:55:24 <BitCoinz> http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/prodPicPopup.html?articleId=418811
1867 2010-12-13 12:56:12 <BitCoinz> 400€
1868 2010-12-13 12:56:31 <[Noodles]> that's the one i'd like to buy, but it's not available anywhere around
1869 2010-12-13 12:56:46 <BitCoinz> it is here ;)
1870 2010-12-13 12:57:56 <MT`AwAy> doublec: this could easily be done online, and if one of the two ppl send less than the other, he only gets double what he put, and the other gets back what he initially added
1871 2010-12-13 12:58:03 <[Noodles]> and besides that, energy is too expensive here anyway, it would take a few month to get the investment back (if btc-price doesnt rise a lot)
1872 2010-12-13 12:58:04 <MT`AwAy> oh
1873 2010-12-13 12:58:06 <MT`AwAy> hash is out
1874 2010-12-13 12:58:12 <BitCoinz> delivery time 1-2 days
1875 2010-12-13 12:58:25 <MT`AwAy> haha, I lose :p
1876 2010-12-13 12:58:27 <doublec> MT`AwAy, woot! I win ;)
1877 2010-12-13 12:58:45 <MT`AwAy> well, that was fun :p
1878 2010-12-13 12:58:46 <doublec> MT`AwAy, yeah it'd make nifty quick site idea
1879 2010-12-13 12:59:01 <MT`AwAy> doublec: I could do it, but I suck when it comes to design (see for example http://smsz.net )
1880 2010-12-13 12:59:01 <[Noodles]> BitCoinz: i'd say, buy it, but am i to tell
1881 2010-12-13 12:59:08 <[Noodles]> +who
1882 2010-12-13 12:59:15 <doublec> A few years ago there used to be an online game where two people got 1 cent free and played a quick skill game against each other
1883 2010-12-13 12:59:23 <doublec> the goal was to win a certain amount of these in a row
1884 2010-12-13 12:59:29 <doublec> doubling their money on the way
1885 2010-12-13 12:59:41 <doublec> The site could afford to give away 1 cent per person as they got that from ads
1886 2010-12-13 12:59:49 <doublec> I can't remember the name
1887 2010-12-13 12:59:50 jeff-b has joined
1888 2010-12-13 12:59:52 <doublec> moola?
1889 2010-12-13 12:59:54 <MT`AwAy> doublec: I see :p
1890 2010-12-13 13:00:09 <doublec> ah, that was it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moola_%28website%29
1891 2010-12-13 13:00:45 <doublec> "Moola emphasizes that by doubling winnings 30 times, a player will earn over m$10 million. When a player loses all of their money, Moola provides a penny to begin with again."
1892 2010-12-13 13:01:04 <MT`AwAy> :D
1893 2010-12-13 13:01:19 <doublec> Your design can't be worse than mine
1894 2010-12-13 13:01:22 <BitCoinz> Noodles i also mus know what motherboard suits to place 4 cards on it
1895 2010-12-13 13:01:47 <MT`AwAy> "As of July 2010, it has been confirmed by Moola management that cash outs for 10 dollars, the lowest amount, are currently backlogged to this past January 2010. Meaning the site has officially not paid anyone any cashouts, meaning no actual money, in roughly 10 months"
1896 2010-12-13 13:01:51 pp22 has joined
1897 2010-12-13 13:01:52 <BitCoinz> the store only has with 6 pci-e slots
1898 2010-12-13 13:02:15 <doublec> Poor Moola
1899 2010-12-13 13:02:33 <BitCoinz> i will need 8 slots
1900 2010-12-13 13:03:11 <BitCoinz> running with AMD phenom II 1100T
1901 2010-12-13 13:03:38 <BitCoinz> a 6 core at 3300
1902 2010-12-13 13:04:22 <BitCoinz> plus SSD HD
1903 2010-12-13 13:05:35 mndrix has joined
1904 2010-12-13 13:05:35 mndrix has quit (Changing host)
1905 2010-12-13 13:05:35 mndrix has joined
1906 2010-12-13 13:05:52 <MT`AwAy> http://pastebin.com/WPHeqZ17
1907 2010-12-13 13:05:53 <MT`AwAy> xD
1908 2010-12-13 13:06:16 <MT`AwAy> (here dominos has no api, but nothing can stop some curl)
1909 2010-12-13 13:06:47 <doublec> haha, nice
1910 2010-12-13 13:06:59 <doublec> who needs a web browser
1911 2010-12-13 13:07:02 mndrix1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1912 2010-12-13 13:07:11 <MT`AwAy> doublec: much faster than clicking around in an interface
1913 2010-12-13 13:07:18 <MT`AwAy> (well, their interface is rather nice)
1914 2010-12-13 13:07:34 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1915 2010-12-13 13:07:44 <MT`AwAy> and "custom1" is a custom pizza I composed to be as bad as possible for health
1916 2010-12-13 13:07:58 <doublec> hehe
1917 2010-12-13 13:08:08 satamusic has joined
1918 2010-12-13 13:08:25 <MT`AwAy> but since I'm likely going to code a lot (still writing a bitcoin client) I need energy (I accept donations to fund the pizzas)
1919 2010-12-13 13:15:42 ColonelPanic2 has joined
1920 2010-12-13 13:16:13 ColonelPanic1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1921 2010-12-13 13:19:18 Grantt is now known as Granttt
1922 2010-12-13 13:19:21 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
1923 2010-12-13 13:19:21 Granttt has joined
1924 2010-12-13 13:24:41 FreeMoney has joined
1925 2010-12-13 13:27:55 <FreeMoney> Mtgox is down
1926 2010-12-13 13:28:02 <FreeMoney> Front page works, but that is all
1927 2010-12-13 13:33:02 <nelisky> same here
1928 2010-12-13 13:33:34 anarchyx_ has quit (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
1929 2010-12-13 13:34:03 anarchyx_ has joined
1930 2010-12-13 13:34:48 <mtgox> really?
1931 2010-12-13 13:36:11 <FreeMoney> yes
1932 2010-12-13 13:36:22 <FreeMoney> getting a "server error" page
1933 2010-12-13 13:37:27 <nelisky> I get nutin', blank page
1934 2010-12-13 13:37:43 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1935 2010-12-13 13:38:09 <nelisky> both /login and /register
1936 2010-12-13 13:38:16 <nelisky> only front page shows
1937 2010-12-13 13:39:14 <FreeMoney> and /history and /tradeAPI and ?darkPool
1938 2010-12-13 13:39:19 <FreeMoney> ?darkpool
1939 2010-12-13 13:39:34 <FreeMoney> damnit I mean /darkpool
1940 2010-12-13 13:39:40 <Amiga4000> what does bitcoin need under windows to use a AMD GPU?
1941 2010-12-13 13:40:32 <mtgox> ok it is fixed.
1942 2010-12-13 13:41:01 <MT`AwAy> /nick Amiga1200
1943 2010-12-13 13:41:05 <mtgox> If you tell me rather than the IRC channel I'll fix it faster :)
1944 2010-12-13 13:44:30 <FreeMoney> yep, working now
1945 2010-12-13 13:44:35 <FreeMoney> sorry, mtgox
1946 2010-12-13 13:45:04 <FreeMoney> that was very fast regardless
1947 2010-12-13 13:49:17 LobsterMan has joined
1948 2010-12-13 13:49:17 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
1949 2010-12-13 13:49:17 LobsterMan has joined
1950 2010-12-13 13:58:59 <Amiga4000> somehow bitcoin does not use the amd 5870 with OpenCL 1.1 and Stream-c2.2 :-/
1951 2010-12-13 13:59:24 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: without an external miner it doesnt.
1952 2010-12-13 13:59:41 <Amiga4000> ok
1953 2010-12-13 14:00:17 <Amiga4000> thats the point I do miss ,-)
1954 2010-12-13 14:02:23 satamusic_ has joined
1955 2010-12-13 14:03:35 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1956 2010-12-13 14:07:23 <Amiga4000> interesting, a hexcore amd 1055T does 7000khashes under windows and 15000khashes with debian.
1957 2010-12-13 14:07:47 <Amiga4000> 7000 khashes for me, 15000khashes after table bon forum
1958 2010-12-13 14:08:30 elgee has quit (lappy!~elgee@unaffiliated/elgee|Quit: Leaving.)
1959 2010-12-13 14:09:56 <[Noodles]> because linux uses the 4way switch which on windows only works with jgarziks external CPU miner
1960 2010-12-13 14:10:57 <Amiga4000> interesting, lost of new informations
1961 2010-12-13 14:11:09 waves281 has quit (Quit: waves281)
1962 2010-12-13 14:12:14 <[Noodles]> for your GPU either use this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1334.0, or this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0 and on your CPU try this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.0
1963 2010-12-13 14:12:16 <bitbot> OpenCL miner for the masses
1964 2010-12-13 14:12:17 <bitbot> Official DiabloMiner Thread
1965 2010-12-13 14:12:18 <bitbot> New demonstration CPU miner available
1966 2010-12-13 14:13:24 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1967 2010-12-13 14:23:10 kaspar has joined
1968 2010-12-13 14:23:54 m0mchil has joined
1969 2010-12-13 14:26:25 <Amiga4000> hmm. not as easy as possible.
1970 2010-12-13 14:27:02 <Kiba> what a cold world
1971 2010-12-13 14:28:52 <[Noodles]> well, it's all in development and not that complicated at all, feel free to create a nice and easy to use GUI
1972 2010-12-13 14:29:21 <Amiga4000> Oh, my prob are the bat scripte and program files (x86) path
1973 2010-12-13 14:29:34 <Amiga4000> as I cannot code, no chance to create a gui ;-)
1974 2010-12-13 14:29:44 satamusic has joined
1975 2010-12-13 14:30:06 <[Noodles]> use "c:\file path to wherever", with those ""
1976 2010-12-13 14:30:13 <Amiga4000> right
1977 2010-12-13 14:30:24 <[Noodles]> works fine for me on bats
1978 2010-12-13 14:30:27 <Amiga4000> now to find the switch to open new window ;-)
1979 2010-12-13 14:38:51 <Amiga4000> ok, I needed to add the -d switch
1980 2010-12-13 14:39:15 <Amiga4000> 30000 khash for the amd 5870 now
1981 2010-12-13 14:39:46 <[Noodles]> uhm, is there a 0 missing?
1982 2010-12-13 14:39:56 <[Noodles]> should be 300 000khash/s
1983 2010-12-13 14:40:41 <Amiga4000> uh, now the PC is off. to much power problem I guess
1984 2010-12-13 14:41:20 <Amiga4000> time to test the dual-geforce 480
1985 2010-12-13 14:41:22 <Amiga4000> hm
1986 2010-12-13 14:41:45 <kaspar> My AMD performs a lot better than the nvidia.
1987 2010-12-13 14:42:29 <Granttt> my ATI Radeon HD 5650 (laptop) does 40000kh/s, i would think 5870 did better
1988 2010-12-13 14:42:43 <[Noodles]> all AMD/ATI cards perform much better than Nvidia
1989 2010-12-13 14:42:50 <Amiga4000> as PSU seems to fail, no infor today, sry
1990 2010-12-13 14:43:17 <[Noodles]> my ocverclocked 5850 gets 300Mhash/s, that's what the 5870 should get
1991 2010-12-13 14:43:41 <[Noodles]> if it doesnt, somethings wrong
1992 2010-12-13 14:43:41 <kaspar> yep, same here with an XFX 5850 black edition.
1993 2010-12-13 14:43:45 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1994 2010-12-13 14:44:15 <kaspar> This is true for DiabloMiner at least. if I run the remote-miner opencl version, I'll only get 100-150 mhash.
1995 2010-12-13 14:44:29 <BitCoinz> XFX cards are overclocked
1996 2010-12-13 14:44:43 <BitCoinz> saphires are not
1997 2010-12-13 14:44:54 <[Noodles]> the pool-remoteminer sucks, its experimental only
1998 2010-12-13 14:45:37 pp22 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1999 2010-12-13 14:45:43 <BitCoinz> pool miner is fun
2000 2010-12-13 14:45:54 <[Noodles]> it sure is
2001 2010-12-13 14:46:01 <BitCoinz> but not for always i think
2002 2010-12-13 14:46:16 <[Noodles]> but not to run with GPUs, you'll just get half of what your card can do
2003 2010-12-13 14:46:25 <kaspar> Thats what I mean.
2004 2010-12-13 14:46:29 <[Noodles]> on both, opencl and cuda
2005 2010-12-13 14:47:23 <BitCoinz> with what program are 5970's mined?
2006 2010-12-13 14:47:32 <kaspar> Well my NVS 3100M works OK with the CUDA edition.
2007 2010-12-13 14:48:21 <[Noodles]> m0mchils or Diablos miners
2008 2010-12-13 14:48:30 <[Noodles]> like every other card
2009 2010-12-13 14:48:31 <kaspar> Same results with DiabloMiner and remoteminer-cuda.
2010 2010-12-13 14:48:41 <kaspar> Same for a 9600GT extreme.
2011 2010-12-13 14:48:42 <[Noodles]> really?
2012 2010-12-13 14:49:12 <[Noodles]> i only get 25M on the remote.cuda and 45M using m0mchils on a GTX260
2013 2010-12-13 14:49:31 <kaspar> Well, there is one subtle difference: CPU usage.
2014 2010-12-13 14:49:43 <[Noodles]> max i'v seen on remote.cuda was ~32M
2015 2010-12-13 14:49:50 <kaspar> The remote-clients all take a huge share of cpu power.
2016 2010-12-13 14:49:55 <[Noodles]> AND the cpu usage, yes
2017 2010-12-13 14:50:21 <kaspar> I proposed some wrapper-client for the pooling server some minutes ago
2018 2010-12-13 14:51:12 <kaspar> => One could attach any normal clinet to the remote-server.
2019 2010-12-13 14:51:40 shortcir1uit is now known as shortcircuit
2020 2010-12-13 14:52:01 <kaspar> Mabye I missed something, but I think, it'd be great. Just stuff all the meta-hash logic into this wrapping-client, and attach Diablo or m0mchil
2021 2010-12-13 14:52:45 azetab has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2022 2010-12-13 14:53:38 <m0mchil> kaspar, slush is working on a new pool
2023 2010-12-13 14:53:54 <[Noodles]> i thought slush wanted to release his cooperative mining solution this weekend, any updates on that one?
2024 2010-12-13 14:54:12 <m0mchil> not yet
2025 2010-12-13 14:55:19 <m0mchil> in theory it will work without modifying existing miners
2026 2010-12-13 14:55:41 <kaspar> This would be awesome. :)
2027 2010-12-13 14:58:05 <kaspar> Maybe someone can explain something different to me: The aim of the hashing os to create a block with a header-checksum (sha256) lower than the current target. As soon as I find such a block I emit it to all of my peers, and I'll get the coins. Is this correct? Because Diablo (run with -d) debug tells me of "attempts". So I assume, a block with a lower checksum is not a guarantee for a new block generation?
2028 2010-12-13 14:58:37 <kaspar> What decides whether an attempt is valid?
2029 2010-12-13 14:59:57 <altamic> the longest block chain always wins
2030 2010-12-13 15:00:51 <kaspar> But the (attempt-)block isn't even chained, is it?
2031 2010-12-13 15:01:11 <m0mchil> you are hashing against some last block X... at the moment you have a solution the network may have already solved it...
2032 2010-12-13 15:01:41 <kaspar> But every block is published on blockexplorer.com, right?
2033 2010-12-13 15:02:28 satamusic has joined
2034 2010-12-13 15:02:30 <kaspar> The network tries to get push the rate 6/h by adjusting defficulty regularly
2035 2010-12-13 15:03:17 <kaspar> So I assumed, the generation of a new block takes a while.
2036 2010-12-13 15:03:36 <kaspar> The attempt rate of Diablo is mugh higher, than acutal blocks a published.
2037 2010-12-13 15:03:52 <kaspar> Does it takesuch a long to propagate a new block over the network?
2038 2010-12-13 15:04:01 <kaspar> *long time
2039 2010-12-13 15:06:01 <m0mchil> not sure, but Diablo's attempt is anytime it checks some H=0
2040 2010-12-13 15:06:19 <Diablo-D3> someone said my name
2041 2010-12-13 15:06:32 <Diablo-D3> kaspar: oh hai
2042 2010-12-13 15:06:48 <Diablo-D3> kaspar: attempt is merely when the kernel returns a nonce where H == 0
2043 2010-12-13 15:06:59 <Diablo-D3> and thats all it does, it has no other meaning
2044 2010-12-13 15:07:07 <kaspar> What's H?
2045 2010-12-13 15:07:24 <Diablo-D3> the 8th letter in the 8th letter in the alphabet.
2046 2010-12-13 15:07:29 <Diablo-D3> erp
2047 2010-12-13 15:07:34 <Diablo-D3> my cleverness failed.
2048 2010-12-13 15:07:48 <kaspar> :D
2049 2010-12-13 15:07:48 genjix has joined
2050 2010-12-13 15:07:48 <Diablo-D3> kaspar: a sha256 hash is 8 ints long
2051 2010-12-13 15:07:57 <Diablo-D3> typically, people who write sha256 impls use letters
2052 2010-12-13 15:07:59 <Diablo-D3> H is the last one
2053 2010-12-13 15:08:16 <kaspar> Ah, did not come accross this naming, yet.
2054 2010-12-13 15:08:25 <Diablo-D3> to make the kernel as fast as possible, it only checks if H == 0
2055 2010-12-13 15:08:47 <Diablo-D3> if so, it then passes it to the host, where the host then checks if it actually meets the target (G <= target)
2056 2010-12-13 15:09:48 <m0mchil> Diablo, did you tried the kernel with target < 32 bits? I know you'll say it will be slower, but I'm just curious to see how it will perform in your setup
2057 2010-12-13 15:09:51 <kaspar> Ok, I'll get it. Thank you for this explanation
2058 2010-12-13 15:10:18 dwdollar has joined
2059 2010-12-13 15:10:51 <Diablo-D3> kaspar: look at the source code, btw
2060 2010-12-13 15:10:53 <Diablo-D3> its really simple
2061 2010-12-13 15:11:03 <Diablo-D3> theres only four outcomes
2062 2010-12-13 15:11:10 <Diablo-D3> nonce == 0 (nothing found)
2063 2010-12-13 15:11:22 <Diablo-D3> H == 0, but G isnt below target
2064 2010-12-13 15:11:32 <Diablo-D3> H == 0, G is below target (coins!)
2065 2010-12-13 15:11:42 <Diablo-D3> H != 0, something went horribly wrong
2066 2010-12-13 15:12:03 <Diablo-D3> only the second case says nothing
2067 2010-12-13 15:12:22 gavinandresen has joined
2068 2010-12-13 15:14:04 <kaspar> Yeah. Just out of curiosity: Did anyone write a js-implementation yet, to use it on innocent visitor's cpus... ;-)?
2069 2010-12-13 15:14:11 <Diablo-D3> kaspar: no.
2070 2010-12-13 15:14:16 <Diablo-D3> and thats nonsensical
2071 2010-12-13 15:14:21 <Diablo-D3> js is so slow, you wont get anything done
2072 2010-12-13 15:14:23 <MT`AwAy> you're not going to get much from js/cpu
2073 2010-12-13 15:14:27 <kaspar> Well with JIT and V8?
2074 2010-12-13 15:15:04 <MT`AwAy> kaspar: do you think your visitors are going to stay on your site if it uses 100% cpu ?
2075 2010-12-13 15:15:13 <MT`AwAy> (not mentionning that using 100% cpuin JS freezes most browsers)
2076 2010-12-13 15:15:30 <kaspar> Well, that's why I put a ;- there.
2077 2010-12-13 15:16:00 <MT`AwAy> yeah, nobody should rely on using JS in browsers to generate coins, it's not going to work anyway
2078 2010-12-13 15:16:23 Akiraa has joined
2079 2010-12-13 15:16:39 <MT`AwAy> some people even went as far as suggesting web3d and use pixel shaders to execute hashes on the gfx card, I don't know pixel shaders enough to say if it could be possible, but I highly doubt it
2080 2010-12-13 15:16:56 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: actually
2081 2010-12-13 15:17:11 <Diablo-D3> I considered glsl shaders as an alternative to opencl
2082 2010-12-13 15:17:22 <MT`AwAy> (I'm not even sure Web3D supports pixel shaders at all)
2083 2010-12-13 15:17:23 <Diablo-D3> it wasnt worth it
2084 2010-12-13 15:17:30 Akiraa has left ()
2085 2010-12-13 15:18:03 <kaspar> If it'd work, it give you an easy way to scale out on a larger client-base. Just visit the page with chromium..andyou're done.
2086 2010-12-13 15:18:17 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: it does
2087 2010-12-13 15:18:25 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: and its called webGL
2088 2010-12-13 15:18:40 <MT`AwAy> well, this show how much this is unknown to me :p
2089 2010-12-13 15:18:44 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: its a JS API wrapper for GLES2
2090 2010-12-13 15:19:43 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: what was your miner's url btw?
2091 2010-12-13 15:19:46 <MT`AwAy> (forum thread?)
2092 2010-12-13 15:19:52 <Diablo-D3> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0;all
2093 2010-12-13 15:19:53 <bitbot> Official DiabloMiner Thread
2094 2010-12-13 15:19:58 <MT`AwAy> :D
2095 2010-12-13 15:21:26 <kaspar> Diablo, is there an option to tell your program to use a specific platform?
2096 2010-12-13 15:21:36 <Diablo-D3> no, it uses all.
2097 2010-12-13 15:21:49 <kaspar> Yeah. I know. :| ... ;-)
2098 2010-12-13 15:21:50 <zygf> webgl doesn't seem to support unsigned integer arithmetic and bitops
2099 2010-12-13 15:22:11 <Diablo-D3> zygf: webgl doesnt really define that
2100 2010-12-13 15:22:15 <Diablo-D3> its a wrapper for gles
2101 2010-12-13 15:22:35 <zygf> I'm telling you what I'm reading from the gles2.0 quick reference
2102 2010-12-13 15:22:47 <Diablo-D3> well, its also double edged
2103 2010-12-13 15:23:10 <Diablo-D3> the browser doesnt care whats in the shader
2104 2010-12-13 15:23:16 <Diablo-D3> it just pases it to the GL impl
2105 2010-12-13 15:23:30 <Diablo-D3> so you can write a shader that wont work on any gles2 platform, and it'll work
2106 2010-12-13 15:24:12 <zygf> I seriously doubt that, browsers do care about standards
2107 2010-12-13 15:24:30 <MT`AwAy> mh
2108 2010-12-13 15:24:43 <MT`AwAy> at least it tried to run
2109 2010-12-13 15:24:44 <kaspar> Well it got better in the last couple of years.
2110 2010-12-13 15:24:54 <MT`AwAy> I guess I should have added the -f flag
2111 2010-12-13 15:24:58 <Diablo-D3> zygf: its an api wrapper.
2112 2010-12-13 15:25:14 devon_hillard has joined
2113 2010-12-13 15:25:15 <Diablo-D3> it has zero interest in the validity of a shader
2114 2010-12-13 15:25:36 <devon_hillard> What would happen if hypothetically, bitcoin became interesting to botnet operators?
2115 2010-12-13 15:25:59 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: nothing.
2116 2010-12-13 15:26:21 <Diablo-D3> what would happen if they detected drugs on every single USD bill in circulation?
2117 2010-12-13 15:26:25 <Diablo-D3> nothing.
2118 2010-12-13 15:27:09 <Diablo-D3> and yes, every single bill, no matter the denomination, has drug residue on it
2119 2010-12-13 15:28:41 <MT`AwAy> k
2120 2010-12-13 15:28:47 * MT`AwAy note: can't gpu mine
2121 2010-12-13 15:28:49 <zygf> Diablo-D3: actually both firefox and chrome have shader validators that you have to turn off manually
2122 2010-12-13 15:29:09 <kaspar> Well, most botnet operators probably want their trojan to as invisible as possible. If you eat through all the CPU's and maybe GPU's horsepower available, you're not exatly invisible.
2123 2010-12-13 15:29:43 <kaspar> Even the dumbest pebcak will realize that his computer is slow as hell.
2124 2010-12-13 15:29:49 <devon_hillard> kaspar: you can still hog resources
2125 2010-12-13 15:30:06 <devon_hillard> say, with a lower priority process
2126 2010-12-13 15:30:46 <devon_hillard> with root access, the GPU can be overclocked
2127 2010-12-13 15:31:56 <kaspar> There is probably no way to eliminate this possibility. As always. No much difference to money earned by sending v14gr4 spam from a botnet, and getting that money.
2128 2010-12-13 15:32:16 kaspar is now known as kaspar|teatime
2129 2010-12-13 15:33:00 pablog has joined
2130 2010-12-13 15:33:34 <Amiga4000> mkay, a geforce gtx480 does ~52 Mhashes/s
2131 2010-12-13 15:33:54 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
2132 2010-12-13 15:39:02 <devon_hillard> Amiga4000: is that with factory voltages?
2133 2010-12-13 15:39:55 <Amiga4000> that is default system
2134 2010-12-13 15:40:13 <Amiga4000> win7 64bit on core i7 with SLI setup of 2 GeForce 480GTX
2135 2010-12-13 15:40:15 RazielZ has quit ()
2136 2010-12-13 15:40:30 <[Noodles]> a bit slow anyway, <100M should  be possible
2137 2010-12-13 15:40:30 <Amiga4000> while i7 is kinda slow ;-)
2138 2010-12-13 15:40:42 <[Noodles]> on a single card
2139 2010-12-13 15:41:04 <Amiga4000> I did not played with the worksize window at all
2140 2010-12-13 15:41:14 <devon_hillard> hm... I think I could adapt my watercooling system with a VGA waterblock
2141 2010-12-13 15:41:26 <genjix> oh the botnet idea is a good one
2142 2010-12-13 15:41:30 <genjix> thanks for that
2143 2010-12-13 15:41:32 <devon_hillard> anyone else watercooling?
2144 2010-12-13 15:43:26 <Amiga4000> next time setup gf480 on linux
2145 2010-12-13 15:43:50 Zarutian has joined
2146 2010-12-13 15:44:41 genjix has left ()
2147 2010-12-13 15:46:28 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2148 2010-12-13 15:46:42 <appamatto> Hey guys.  What would you think about tying the amount of bitcoins generated to the difficulty?
2149 2010-12-13 15:47:22 <appamatto> Right now the reward per unit work is decreasing exponentially
2150 2010-12-13 15:48:11 <dsg> appamatto: Yes, that's the point of the difficulty system.
2151 2010-12-13 15:48:43 <dsg> To keep the amount of bitcoins generated constant given fluctuating generation capacity
2152 2010-12-13 15:49:43 <appamatto> I'm curious though if that inhibits growth in the system
2153 2010-12-13 15:50:40 <dsg> I'm not sure I understand you, are you saying you'd like the rate of bitcoin generation to increase with increasing hashing power?
2154 2010-12-13 15:50:48 <dsg> I can't imagine why anyone would use such a syste,.
2155 2010-12-13 15:51:03 <appamatto> The first bitcoin was generated with about 10 CPU seconds of work whereas the most recent cost about 10 CPU days
2156 2010-12-13 15:51:20 <[Noodles]> so what?
2157 2010-12-13 15:51:31 <dsg> appamatto: Yes, because there is more competition.
2158 2010-12-13 15:51:44 <zygf> 10 CPU days? more like 100 :P
2159 2010-12-13 15:51:51 <dsg> What you describe is a nice system to distribute worthless tokens.
2160 2010-12-13 15:51:54 <appamatto> zygf, per btc
2161 2010-12-13 15:52:28 kaspar is now known as teatime!~kaspar@188.110.192.140|kaspar
2162 2010-12-13 15:52:34 <[Noodles]> 1block (or currently 50coins) every ten minutes, that's the whole idea
2163 2010-12-13 15:52:52 <[Noodles]> and in future, when difficulty is even higher, those 50coins will decrease!
2164 2010-12-13 15:53:06 <[Noodles]> you get even less for working ages
2165 2010-12-13 15:53:13 <[Noodles]> decades
2166 2010-12-13 15:53:25 <appamatto> I was thinking about systems that have perma-inflation, say the equivalent of keeping 50 btc generation indefinitely
2167 2010-12-13 15:53:46 <[Noodles]> noone wants inflation in bitcoin
2168 2010-12-13 15:54:04 <appamatto> Well, no one wants inflation by fiat
2169 2010-12-13 15:54:15 <appamatto> I'm not sure that no one wants inflation period
2170 2010-12-13 15:54:38 <[Noodles]> that's why we already switched from fiat to bitcoin
2171 2010-12-13 15:54:53 <[Noodles]> tell everyone else todo it too
2172 2010-12-13 15:55:36 <appamatto> Right.  I'm making the claim that an alternative bitcoin could have a known rate of inflation and still have the important property that no one controls the money supply
2173 2010-12-13 15:56:09 <[Noodles]> go give it a try, its all open source
2174 2010-12-13 15:56:25 <appamatto> Yeah, I'm working on it
2175 2010-12-13 15:56:30 <[Noodles]> i doubt anyone will choose your system over bitcoin
2176 2010-12-13 15:56:33 CyanDynamo has joined
2177 2010-12-13 15:56:45 <appamatto> It's for the bitcoin implementation on bitx
2178 2010-12-13 15:56:53 <appamatto> (http://bitx.appamatto.com)
2179 2010-12-13 15:57:51 <appamatto> I'm thinking of making one hash worth one bitcoin
2180 2010-12-13 15:59:12 <appamatto> and then making bitcoins indivisible
2181 2010-12-13 15:59:12 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2182 2010-12-13 15:59:21 <dsg> appamatto: bitx looks interesting, thanks for the link :)
2183 2010-12-13 15:59:29 <appamatto> dsg, no prob
2184 2010-12-13 16:00:55 <appamatto> Almost all the ideas are heresy given the current bitcoin implementation: variable block frequency, no timestamps, inflationary, ...
2185 2010-12-13 16:02:02 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2186 2010-12-13 16:02:31 satamusic has joined
2187 2010-12-13 16:06:26 foxstrike has joined
2188 2010-12-13 16:07:03 <altamic> appamatto: you would like to have a system where inflation is manipulatable?
2189 2010-12-13 16:07:41 <appamatto> altamic, well the block creation rate is manipulatable but the inflation rate is not
2190 2010-12-13 16:07:48 <Teppy> 146 online - more press?
2191 2010-12-13 16:07:52 <appamatto> The two are independent
2192 2010-12-13 16:08:11 <altamic> Prices in an economy may shift under two separate and distinct key factor: supply and demand and money manipulation.
2193 2010-12-13 16:08:15 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2194 2010-12-13 16:08:21 <Teppy> Been getting more people in Dragon's Tale as well.
2195 2010-12-13 16:08:33 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2196 2010-12-13 16:08:36 <appamatto> Teppy, there was another slashdot
2197 2010-12-13 16:08:48 <altamic> I reserve the word inflation only for the latter
2198 2010-12-13 16:08:55 <Kiba> you're getting rich, Teppy!
2199 2010-12-13 16:09:08 * Kiba is getting rich too!
2200 2010-12-13 16:09:17 <Kiba> I have 201.04 BTC in my pocket
2201 2010-12-13 16:09:23 <appamatto> altamaic, the supply of money increases in relation to the number of global hashes essentially
2202 2010-12-13 16:09:51 <appamatto> so it's inflationary but not manipulatable by any single person
2203 2010-12-13 16:11:12 darrob has joined
2204 2010-12-13 16:11:12 <altamic> hehehe
2205 2010-12-13 16:11:16 <appamatto> It seems like a good way to reward the people who are actually putting work into the system.  by comparison vanilla bitcoin looks a little like a pyramid where early adopters benefit from later work indefinitely
2206 2010-12-13 16:11:28 * [Noodles] thinks Kiba is already rich and just doesnt know it yet
2207 2010-12-13 16:11:46 <[Noodles]> in a few years that like a bazillion USD
2208 2010-12-13 16:11:54 <appamatto> darrob, are you using Tor?
2209 2010-12-13 16:12:01 <Kiba> [Noodles]: hehe, if Ic an hold on to my bitcoins.
2210 2010-12-13 16:12:11 <altamic> so in other words you are proposing stealth uniform tax on every holder
2211 2010-12-13 16:12:32 <altamic> s/stealth//
2212 2010-12-13 16:12:36 <darrob> appamatto: yes. sorry if the constant timeouts are bothering you. :/
2213 2010-12-13 16:13:21 <appamatto> altamic, yes, if you have the mentality that a btc is a fraction of a fixed-sized pie
2214 2010-12-13 16:13:35 pablog has quit (Quit: Sto andando via)
2215 2010-12-13 16:13:52 <appamatto> but if you have the mentality that a btc represents a unit of work donated to the system, then early adopters are taxing newer producers very, very heavily
2216 2010-12-13 16:13:57 daveandr has joined
2217 2010-12-13 16:14:10 <appamatto> It's just a matter of time before the workers united
2218 2010-12-13 16:14:14 <appamatto> :p
2219 2010-12-13 16:14:33 <Kiba> there's no point of being an early adopter...or to save
2220 2010-12-13 16:15:40 sktrdie has joined
2221 2010-12-13 16:15:53 <altamic> I think that money expansion is a very useful means of taxation superior to alternatives, presuming it is limited and erected at full knowledge and political consent of currency holders
2222 2010-12-13 16:15:55 <sktrdie> Hi, why does bitcoin use people CPU power? For what calculations?
2223 2010-12-13 16:15:57 <[Noodles]> it's not a unit of work in the bitcoin-system, you dont get payed for your work, you get payed for being lucky, like in a lottery, you just can increase your chances to win the lottery, buy more tickets
2224 2010-12-13 16:17:09 <appamatto> [Noodles] yes, but that can be proportional to the estimated amount of work
2225 2010-12-13 16:17:31 <[Noodles]> no, it can't, it's still a lottery
2226 2010-12-13 16:17:32 <Kiba> I don't believe in political consent.
2227 2010-12-13 16:17:37 <altamic> but who decides how to spend the revenues?
2228 2010-12-13 16:17:48 <Kiba> You do, with your own money.
2229 2010-12-13 16:17:57 <altamic> this is the point
2230 2010-12-13 16:18:01 <sktrdie> Hi, why does bitcoin use people CPU power? For what calculations?
2231 2010-12-13 16:18:04 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2232 2010-12-13 16:18:22 <Kiba> sktrdie: to process transactions and make sure the history of transactions aren't tampered with.
2233 2010-12-13 16:18:46 foobar_ has joined
2234 2010-12-13 16:19:07 <sktrdie> Kiba: jee, is the processing code solid enough?
2235 2010-12-13 16:19:44 <dsg> sktrdie: "solid enough"?
2236 2010-12-13 16:20:25 <sktrdie> i'm not tecchie enough to understand
2237 2010-12-13 16:20:27 <dsg> It's code. I don't think you can ascribe any state of material being, whether solid, liquid, gaseous or other ;)
2238 2010-12-13 16:20:37 <sktrdie> how does someone elses CPU calulcation validate my payment?
2239 2010-12-13 16:20:48 <appamatto> sktrdie, there is no central server or required client, so there is no way to guarantee "solidness" through code
2240 2010-12-13 16:21:14 <sktrdie> well, but the bits and bytes transfer/calculcations are controlled by some code
2241 2010-12-13 16:21:58 <[Noodles]> just try to cheat ^.^
2242 2010-12-13 16:22:04 <Kiba> wee
2243 2010-12-13 16:22:11 <Kiba> half of my saving is from my art career :D
2244 2010-12-13 16:22:47 <zygf> well, it'd probably be more solid if it used multiple, different hashing algorithms, now it depends on sha2 not being broken
2245 2010-12-13 16:23:20 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2246 2010-12-13 16:23:27 <dsg> zygf: If SHA256 is broken, we have larger problems than bitcoin
2247 2010-12-13 16:23:35 <dsg> At least for now.
2248 2010-12-13 16:23:46 davex__ has joined
2249 2010-12-13 16:28:42 <bitbot> New news from bitcoinsvn: s_nakamoto committed revision 201 to the Bitcoin SVN repository, changing 22 files
2250 2010-12-13 16:31:22 <ArtForz> looks like r200 + ver bump to 0.3.19 + s/Satoshi Nakamoto/Bitcoin Developers/
2251 2010-12-13 16:31:29 <Kiba> so, anybody earning bitcoins?
2252 2010-12-13 16:32:10 <zygf> nope, 335 days to go for me :P
2253 2010-12-13 16:32:41 satamusic has joined
2254 2010-12-13 16:32:46 <ArtForz> looks like I'll be a bit < 26 blocks today
2255 2010-12-13 16:33:25 <kaspar> What kind of hardware did you throw at this?
2256 2010-12-13 16:33:39 <ArtForz> 24 HD5970 + 5 HD5770
2257 2010-12-13 16:34:13 <kaspar> That's quite an investment into power and hardware for BC.
2258 2010-12-13 16:34:40 <ArtForz> hadrware has already more than paid for itself
2259 2010-12-13 16:34:51 <sgornick> ArtForz: That's sick
2260 2010-12-13 16:34:56 k0mp0 has quit ()
2261 2010-12-13 16:35:08 <[Noodles]> you would do it too, if you could ^.^
2262 2010-12-13 16:35:14 <ArtForz> started a bit over 4 months ago with a half-dead 4870 I got off ebay for $50
2263 2010-12-13 16:35:20 sktrdie has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2264 2010-12-13 16:36:03 <kaspar> Where do ypou live and how much do you pay per kw/h?
2265 2010-12-13 16:36:35 <ArtForz> germany, and pretty much $0 for power in winter, I run my own micro combined heat+power plant
2266 2010-12-13 16:37:14 <sgornick> ArtForz: you owned heat+power?  That's even more sick!
2267 2010-12-13 16:37:21 <kaspar> Well, I live in Germany as well. And we are at about 0.21€/kw/h
2268 2010-12-13 16:37:56 <zygf> kw*h :P
2269 2010-12-13 16:38:08 <ArtForz> yup, thats about what I'd pay for grid power
2270 2010-12-13 16:38:22 <kaspar> Oh well. You're right, zygf.
2271 2010-12-13 16:38:30 <ArtForz> cancelled my order for 12 more 5970s, fuckers bumped shipping date to january
2272 2010-12-13 16:38:54 <kaspar> So, how do you produce the energy?
2273 2010-12-13 16:39:13 <ArtForz> diesel gen running on heating oil
2274 2010-12-13 16:39:46 <kaspar> And this is cheaper than grid?
2275 2010-12-13 16:39:49 <ArtForz> yup
2276 2010-12-13 16:39:50 <ArtForz> used to be central heating w/ a 15kW oil burner
2277 2010-12-13 16:40:30 <ArtForz> "waste" heat from generator feeds hot water + central heating loops
2278 2010-12-13 16:40:46 <kaspar> Yep, got one of those as well
2279 2010-12-13 16:40:52 <zygf> what's the average block size?
2280 2010-12-13 16:40:58 <kaspar> It's supported by hot water from the roof.
2281 2010-12-13 16:41:10 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2282 2010-12-13 16:41:13 <ArtForz> doesn't matter if you go oil->heat or oil->heat+power->heat, efficiency for oil->heat is still way > 90%
2283 2010-12-13 16:41:14 Azetab has joined
2284 2010-12-13 16:41:29 <kaspar> You're water cooling the cards?
2285 2010-12-13 16:41:30 <Kiba> so folks
2286 2010-12-13 16:41:33 <ArtForz> nope
2287 2010-12-13 16:41:39 <ArtForz> cards are air cooled
2288 2010-12-13 16:41:52 <Kiba> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=79
2289 2010-12-13 16:41:56 <Kiba> download my art?
2290 2010-12-13 16:41:58 <ArtForz> http://bayimg.com/eABDfaAdd
2291 2010-12-13 16:42:00 <kaspar> And the efficiency is still this high?
2292 2010-12-13 16:42:07 <ArtForz> yep
2293 2010-12-13 16:43:22 <kaspar> Do you reuse the heat from the cards?
2294 2010-12-13 16:43:41 albatross_ has joined
2295 2010-12-13 16:44:30 <ArtForz> 3 120x38mm fans per box, interior looks like this: http://bayimg.com/KAAeaaAdp
2296 2010-12-13 16:44:50 <ArtForz> yep
2297 2010-12-13 16:46:05 <kaspar> You really should write an article about this setup. :-D
2298 2010-12-13 16:46:10 <kaspar> This is awesome.
2299 2010-12-13 16:46:19 <ArtForz> main stack of 20 cards sits in central stairway @ ground floor, produces a nice chimney effect and disperses nicely in 1st and 2nd floor
2300 2010-12-13 16:46:33 redengin has joined
2301 2010-12-13 16:46:55 <MacRohard> hah
2302 2010-12-13 16:47:51 <kaspar> What about the noise, this stack of cards procudes?
2303 2010-12-13 16:47:52 <Kiba> this fucking wikipedia admin is a retard
2304 2010-12-13 16:48:00 <Kiba> fucking conspricy theorist
2305 2010-12-13 16:48:05 <ArtForz> yeah, you get used to it
2306 2010-12-13 16:48:26 <ArtForz> it's actually not that bad with these boxes
2307 2010-12-13 16:48:30 <zygf> does anyone know what the average block size is?
2308 2010-12-13 16:48:54 <zygf> as in the amount of data that gets hashed over and over
2309 2010-12-13 16:49:00 <kaspar> Well, I'd probably use watercooling
2310 2010-12-13 16:49:22 <ArtForz> watercooling is nice, but imo a bit too expensive
2311 2010-12-13 16:49:41 <kaspar> And add the heat to the 1000l water-tank
2312 2010-12-13 16:49:51 <ArtForz> it'd add like 500EUR+ per quad 5970 box
2313 2010-12-13 16:49:56 <kaspar> Then you can just store the processing into a basement cabinet
2314 2010-12-13 16:50:05 <ArtForz> yeah, I was contemplating that too
2315 2010-12-13 16:50:18 <ArtForz> decided the added cost wasn't worth it
2316 2010-12-13 16:50:21 m0mchil has left ()
2317 2010-12-13 16:50:55 <kaspar> Well, if you are at 1300 BC a day, you earn about 260$. Should work, doesn't it?
2318 2010-12-13 16:51:11 <ArtForz> sure does
2319 2010-12-13 16:51:26 <dsg> ArtForz: What kind of PCIe extenders are you using? Is that setup reliable?
2320 2010-12-13 16:51:40 <kaspar> It'd be worth the silence, imo :D
2321 2010-12-13 16:51:50 <ArtForz> these with 4" cable: http://pc-adapter.net/products/450.html
2322 2010-12-13 16:52:05 <ArtForz> with 6" cable they're unreliable at 2.0 speeds but work fine at 1.0 speeds
2323 2010-12-13 16:53:39 <appamatto> I love hearing about ArtForz's exploits
2324 2010-12-13 16:53:41 <ArtForz> they're 1:1 clones of ADEX PE-FLEX16, just a lot cheaper
2325 2010-12-13 16:53:44 <appamatto> You should have a blog about this
2326 2010-12-13 16:53:53 <appamatto> Although it might encourage competitors
2327 2010-12-13 16:54:04 <kaspar> This probably half of the Bitcoin processing power ;-)
2328 2010-12-13 16:54:14 <ArtForz> nope, more like 16%
2329 2010-12-13 16:54:14 <sgornick> kaspar: 15%
2330 2010-12-13 16:54:28 <appamatto> People making servers out of filing cabinets always gets slashdotted
2331 2010-12-13 16:54:28 RazielZ has joined
2332 2010-12-13 16:54:47 <appamatto> 1/6 isn't bad
2333 2010-12-13 16:54:53 Azetab_ has joined
2334 2010-12-13 16:55:00 <appamatto> Probably the largest single miner?
2335 2010-12-13 16:55:06 <kaspar> Where do you know that from. Are there some global stats?
2336 2010-12-13 16:55:09 Azetab has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2337 2010-12-13 16:55:25 <appamatto> kaspar, the difficulty will tell you the global hash rate
2338 2010-12-13 16:55:30 <ArtForz> you can calc an estimate of total hashrate from difficulty and time/block
2339 2010-12-13 16:55:43 <ArtForz> ;;bc,stats
2340 2010-12-13 16:55:43 <appamatto> is there a ;; command to show it?
2341 2010-12-13 16:55:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97373 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1410 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 13 minutes, and 11 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13696.26368860
2342 2010-12-13 16:55:46 <appamatto> ;;bc,stats
2343 2010-12-13 16:55:49 <kaspar> Yeah, but its a rought estimate isn't it?
2344 2010-12-13 16:55:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97373 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1410 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 13 minutes, and 11 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13696.26368860
2345 2010-12-13 16:56:11 <ArtForz> 13696 * 2**32 / 600
2346 2010-12-13 16:56:30 <ArtForz> = we averaged ~98Gh/s for the current difficulty
2347 2010-12-13 16:57:02 <kaspar> hm, ok. :)
2348 2010-12-13 16:57:10 <appamatto> Someone had a forum post about petaflops for distributed systems, and we were pretty close to the top
2349 2010-12-13 16:57:46 <appamatto> near SETI@home and friends
2350 2010-12-13 16:57:51 <ArtForz> well, one hash is about 4300 opcodes
2351 2010-12-13 16:58:26 <appamatto> are those all flops?
2352 2010-12-13 16:58:34 <ArtForz> so we're doing about 421T INTOPS
2353 2010-12-13 16:58:55 <ArtForz> no, intops
2354 2010-12-13 16:59:00 <ArtForz> no floating point here
2355 2010-12-13 16:59:11 <albatross_> i would love to see sales numbers from ati for october/november vs the rest of the year. lol
2356 2010-12-13 16:59:15 <ArtForz> though it's a good guess we could do about the same in FLOPS
2357 2010-12-13 16:59:23 <ArtForz> twice for MULADD FLOPS
2358 2010-12-13 17:01:12 <kaspar> What's your exit-strategy when generation drops from 50 to 25?
2359 2010-12-13 17:01:18 <ArtForz> S@H is pushing ~7.5e22 FLOPS
2360 2010-12-13 17:02:05 <appamatto> At some point won't it be more about efficiency, since most GPUs will fail to pay for their electricity costs?
2361 2010-12-13 17:02:12 <ArtForz> yep
2362 2010-12-13 17:02:24 <kaspar> And it's not winter-time, .and you pay about 2-3€/day/HD5970?
2363 2010-12-13 17:02:31 satamusic has joined
2364 2010-12-13 17:02:51 <appamatto> This is why it seems like a difficulty-adjusted generation amount seems good to me
2365 2010-12-13 17:03:14 <ArtForz> it'd be about 40EUR/day on grid power
2366 2010-12-13 17:03:16 <appamatto> take out one of those seem's
2367 2010-12-13 17:03:23 <ArtForz> so we're doing about 5e14 FLOPs
2368 2010-12-13 17:03:34 <ArtForz> errr... sec
2369 2010-12-13 17:04:03 <ArtForz> we did a total of ~ 3e17 hashes
2370 2010-12-13 17:04:08 <Diablo-D3> kaspar: why assume he even needs an exit strat
2371 2010-12-13 17:04:17 genjix has joined
2372 2010-12-13 17:04:19 anarchyx_ has quit (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
2373 2010-12-13 17:04:28 <genjix> lol someone locked my topic about wikileaks on the forumns
2374 2010-12-13 17:04:30 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2247.0
2375 2010-12-13 17:04:31 <bitbot> Wikileaks Donation
2376 2010-12-13 17:04:42 <ArtForz> so about 1.3e21 OPs total
2377 2010-12-13 17:04:44 <kaspar> When difficulty+generation-earnings drop below electricity costs
2378 2010-12-13 17:05:14 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2379 2010-12-13 17:05:18 Azetab_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2380 2010-12-13 17:05:19 <kaspar> Yeah, well, cyou could sell them on ebay and be happy.
2381 2010-12-13 17:05:50 <ArtForz> my electricity costs are about $0 in winter, I'll probably just shut down the cards over summer if it becomes unprofitable to generate on grid power
2382 2010-12-13 17:05:55 <Kiba> genjix: because you were persistent about...wikileak
2383 2010-12-13 17:06:18 <ArtForz> thats pretty damn impressive
2384 2010-12-13 17:06:25 <appamatto> ArtForz, so pretty near S@H
2385 2010-12-13 17:06:33 <ArtForz> S@H did 6e19 FLOPs over the last 24h
2386 2010-12-13 17:07:01 <appamatto> What about btc?
2387 2010-12-13 17:07:22 <kaspar> Where do you sell those BCs? Are there people out there purchasing so many BCs?
2388 2010-12-13 17:07:26 <ArtForz> thats only about 6.9e14 FLOPS
2389 2010-12-13 17:08:17 <ArtForz> 98GH/s ... 4.2e14 INTOPS
2390 2010-12-13 17:08:42 <ArtForz> so we're currently about 2/3 the size of S@H (!)
2391 2010-12-13 17:09:48 <ArtForz> F@H is quite a bit bigger
2392 2010-12-13 17:10:18 <ArtForz> ebout 1e16
2393 2010-12-13 17:10:46 <appamatto> pretty awesome
2394 2010-12-13 17:10:49 <ArtForz> so we're about 1/25 the size of F@H
2395 2010-12-13 17:11:08 <appamatto> Are there any larger networks?
2396 2010-12-13 17:11:17 <appamatto> 25x growth seems very manageable
2397 2010-12-13 17:11:35 <ArtForz> unlikely unless value of bitcoin increases quite a bit
2398 2010-12-13 17:11:43 <appamatto> We just need 150 more ArtForz's
2399 2010-12-13 17:11:52 <Diablo-D3> [12:03:14] <genjix> lol someone locked my topic about wikileaks on the forumns
2400 2010-12-13 17:11:52 <Diablo-D3> [12:03:15] <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2247.0
2401 2010-12-13 17:11:54 <bitbot> Wikileaks Donation
2402 2010-12-13 17:12:02 <Diablo-D3> yeah, satoshi basically needs to be removed from leadership
2403 2010-12-13 17:12:12 <ArtForz> @ $0.10/kWh and $0.2/BTC 5970s become unprofitable ~diff 140k
2404 2010-12-13 17:12:18 <Diablo-D3> what hes doing is censorship just like any other
2405 2010-12-13 17:12:25 <appamatto> Diablo-D3, did he lock it?
2406 2010-12-13 17:12:33 <Diablo-D3> who else has forum mod powers?
2407 2010-12-13 17:12:39 <kaspar> ArtForz: How do you sell those BTC?
2408 2010-12-13 17:12:45 <appamatto> there are several admins
2409 2010-12-13 17:12:52 <Diablo-D3> well then whoever did it needs to be removed.
2410 2010-12-13 17:13:01 <ArtForz> mtgox
2411 2010-12-13 17:13:03 <Diablo-D3> if I want to donate to wikileaks using btc, then everyone else can suck my dick
2412 2010-12-13 17:13:08 <Diablo-D3> period.
2413 2010-12-13 17:13:32 <xelister>  <Diablo-D3> yeah, satoshi basically needs to be removed from leadership
2414 2010-12-13 17:13:34 <xelister> hm?
2415 2010-12-13 17:13:42 <Diablo-D3> shuddup xelister.
2416 2010-12-13 17:13:46 <ArtForz> admins are satoshi, sirius, gavin
2417 2010-12-13 17:13:57 <xelister> Diablo-D3: say waht?
2418 2010-12-13 17:15:56 <Diablo-D3> what.
2419 2010-12-13 17:16:02 <Diablo-D3> xelister: you're not even reading the backlog
2420 2010-12-13 17:16:32 <ArtForz> Diablo: did you read the post?
2421 2010-12-13 17:17:20 <ArtForz> I dont think admins locked it because of the wikileaks angle
2422 2010-12-13 17:17:57 darrob has joined
2423 2010-12-13 17:19:02 <Diablo-D3> I dont even care why it was locked
2424 2010-12-13 17:19:23 <Diablo-D3> unless it was talking about downloading child porn off Obama's secret stash, I dont care
2425 2010-12-13 17:19:45 <ArtForz> it's their forum, they can lock whatever they want
2426 2010-12-13 17:20:18 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: that'd be like a forum attacking censorship censoring someone
2427 2010-12-13 17:20:23 <ArtForz> feel free to pay for hosting for your own "free speech for all trolls" froum
2428 2010-12-13 17:20:26 <Diablo-D3> we might as well all go back to using paypal and enjoy the rape
2429 2010-12-13 17:20:41 <Diablo-D3> I dont see anything particularly trolly
2430 2010-12-13 17:20:45 <Diablo-D3> genjix just sucks at writing
2431 2010-12-13 17:20:47 <xelister> ArtForz: or start freenet node
2432 2010-12-13 17:21:03 <ArtForz> or run a tor hidden service
2433 2010-12-13 17:21:21 <xelister> or both. and i2p
2434 2010-12-13 17:21:24 <genjix> the writing sucks but im normally good at writing :p
2435 2010-12-13 17:21:48 <Diablo-D3> and genjix, this is where you went wrong
2436 2010-12-13 17:21:53 <Diablo-D3> the ENTIRE PURPOSE OF USING BTC TO BEGIN WITH
2437 2010-12-13 17:22:05 <ArtForz> is to troll forums on the internet?
2438 2010-12-13 17:22:05 <Diablo-D3> is so the government cant track who donated to wikileaks
2439 2010-12-13 17:22:16 <Diablo-D3> since thats their next step
2440 2010-12-13 17:22:23 <Diablo-D3> arrest people for funding a known terrorist
2441 2010-12-13 17:22:24 <Granttt> while i dont mind people donating to wikileaks, that forum is the official bitcoin forum and the angle of "Next the BTC is funnelled through a money laundering service ..." isn't a good thing to showoff at the official forum. (from governments perspective there is no difference between wikileaks and childporn, both are considered "illegal").
2442 2010-12-13 17:22:33 <ArtForz> yep
2443 2010-12-13 17:23:00 <genjix> ok point taken Granttt. maybe you should've posted that before locking to stop idle speculation ;)
2444 2010-12-13 17:23:02 <Diablo-D3> BTC already "launders" it (in the literal sense, it becomes clean) money
2445 2010-12-13 17:23:12 <Diablo-D3> its anonymous
2446 2010-12-13 17:23:12 <ArtForz> no it doesnt
2447 2010-12-13 17:23:26 <ArtForz> pseudonymous, BIG difference
2448 2010-12-13 17:23:30 <genjix> Diablo-D3: i mean money laundering service to obfuscate the block chain
2449 2010-12-13 17:23:35 <Diablo-D3> you cant attack BTC addresses without significant additional methods
2450 2010-12-13 17:23:45 <Diablo-D3> genjix: but the block chain already is obfuscated
2451 2010-12-13 17:23:48 <xelister> there is no difference between recording and distributing actuall CP, and copying episode of Prisonbreak from ipad to computer in unauthorized way (DRM)... hmm really?
2452 2010-12-13 17:24:01 <genjix> like if you had a central party laundering money for many other parties then it's hard to trace who paid what to whom
2453 2010-12-13 17:24:02 <Diablo-D3> xelister: I can murder a child and get less years in jail
2454 2010-12-13 17:24:02 <ArtForz> xelister: for the general media, no, not really
2455 2010-12-13 17:24:03 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2456 2010-12-13 17:24:17 <xelister> Diablo-D3: woot. although, do this happen in practice
2457 2010-12-13 17:24:42 <Diablo-D3> genjix: but if address A sends BTC to address B, how does this tell you who A and B is?
2458 2010-12-13 17:25:11 <Diablo-D3> genjix: without additional information, you cannot attack A and B
2459 2010-12-13 17:25:28 <genjix> it makes it near impossible to even SEE that A sent to B
2460 2010-12-13 17:25:37 <Diablo-D3> we know A sent to B
2461 2010-12-13 17:25:41 <genjix> know
2462 2010-12-13 17:25:42 <Diablo-D3> even if it goes through C
2463 2010-12-13 17:25:46 <genjix> only A -> C
2464 2010-12-13 17:25:49 <genjix> no
2465 2010-12-13 17:25:50 <appamatto> how many tx/block does bitcoin support?
2466 2010-12-13 17:25:51 <Diablo-D3> what you want is some complex mixer service
2467 2010-12-13 17:25:55 <Diablo-D3> which is useless
2468 2010-12-13 17:25:56 <genjix> yep
2469 2010-12-13 17:26:11 <Diablo-D3> there is no way to make those work since the chain is fully public
2470 2010-12-13 17:26:29 <genjix> why, if there's enough transactions and it spreads the payment over say a week by depositing random amounts to B that don't sum to the full amount
2471 2010-12-13 17:26:36 <genjix> then there's a loss of information there
2472 2010-12-13 17:26:51 <xelister> Diablo-D3: if you take into account war then its totally true. sad world
2473 2010-12-13 17:27:05 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no there isnt.
2474 2010-12-13 17:27:15 <xelister> aboyt anon,  exchanging between fully TORed / i2p'ed clients would help
2475 2010-12-13 17:27:17 <genjix> it's impossible to deduce from A -> C  and a set of different C -> B  which B is connected to A
2476 2010-12-13 17:27:24 <Diablo-D3> genjix: wrong.
2477 2010-12-13 17:27:40 <Diablo-D3> xelister: yes it does, but thats a different issue
2478 2010-12-13 17:27:41 <xelister> then you can find out clients but cant tide them to ip
2479 2010-12-13 17:28:02 <Diablo-D3> the problem is, you cant link A to an actual person without owning the majority of bitcoin nodes
2480 2010-12-13 17:28:12 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2481 2010-12-13 17:28:33 <genjix> tell me why that system makes it possible to link A -> C and C -> B to get the full chain of A -> C -> B
2482 2010-12-13 17:28:46 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no, you tell me why it doesnt. please provide a mathematical proof.
2483 2010-12-13 17:28:57 <Diablo-D3> the entire chain is public.
2484 2010-12-13 17:28:58 <genjix> if there's other A's and other B's
2485 2010-12-13 17:29:03 <Diablo-D3> information leaks happen too readily.
2486 2010-12-13 17:29:06 <ArtForz> I don't see how thats possible if you have a "pool adress"
2487 2010-12-13 17:29:22 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the mixer would have to be constantly moving
2488 2010-12-13 17:29:23 <genjix> right but C obfuscates the transaction. The full amount isn't even sent on (it's a random amount +/-)
2489 2010-12-13 17:29:31 <ArtForz> yep
2490 2010-12-13 17:29:34 <Diablo-D3> genjix: doesnt matter
2491 2010-12-13 17:29:36 <genjix> and it's sent over a long time period like a week
2492 2010-12-13 17:29:45 <Diablo-D3> it would have to basically spam transactions to random users
2493 2010-12-13 17:29:47 <genjix> where other transactions are happening
2494 2010-12-13 17:29:59 <Diablo-D3> ones not even related to the mixer
2495 2010-12-13 17:30:21 <Diablo-D3> and if any of the mixer nodes are comrpmised, the jig is up
2496 2010-12-13 17:30:29 <Diablo-D3> you'd basically need many mixer nodes, onion routed.
2497 2010-12-13 17:30:43 sgornick has joined
2498 2010-12-13 17:30:56 <Diablo-D3> so no one can actually understand the mixing being done except the entrance and exit to the mixer
2499 2010-12-13 17:31:18 <genjix> if A_1 send 10 btc to C, A_2 sends 10 btc to C... and C sends (2.3,4,1,1) to B_7, and C sends (5,0,1) to B_8
2500 2010-12-13 17:31:22 <Diablo-D3> and that only makes the problem difficult
2501 2010-12-13 17:31:25 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt make it impossible
2502 2010-12-13 17:31:30 <genjix> how can you connect A_1 to B_7 or B_8?
2503 2010-12-13 17:31:37 <ArtForz> you can't
2504 2010-12-13 17:32:02 <Diablo-D3> genjix: because the government will just arrest you for using bitcoin.
2505 2010-12-13 17:32:05 <genjix> QED
2506 2010-12-13 17:32:09 <Diablo-D3> negating the entire problem to begin with
2507 2010-12-13 17:32:16 <genjix> right but thats what I meant by "money laundering service"
2508 2010-12-13 17:32:28 <genjix> put it in a tor service for added security
2509 2010-12-13 17:32:30 <Diablo-D3> yes, and I already said BTC by itself does this.
2510 2010-12-13 17:32:34 satamusic has joined
2511 2010-12-13 17:33:00 <genjix> anonymity++
2512 2010-12-13 17:33:47 <genjix> criminal X and criminal Y cannot be ever proven to be connected unless through inaccurate statistical methods.
2513 2010-12-13 17:33:58 <xelister> who says abouts criminals
2514 2010-12-13 17:34:06 <Diablo-D3> since when did the government need proof?
2515 2010-12-13 17:34:30 <Diablo-D3> guilty, even if proven innocent, is the post 9/11 US government
2516 2010-12-13 17:35:10 <genjix> you ask too much
2517 2010-12-13 17:35:15 <genjix> get in line.
2518 2010-12-13 17:37:07 daveandr has quit (Quit: Bye)
2519 2010-12-13 17:39:46 <xelister> weapons of mass delusion
2520 2010-12-13 17:39:58 <xelister> why are we attacking iraq people?
2521 2010-12-13 17:40:37 <xelister> why looking at cartoon naked butt of imaginary underage is almost death penalty worth   but it is ok to MURDER actuall people AND CHILDREN in iraq?
2522 2010-12-13 17:40:43 <xelister> why policeman punch niggers in face
2523 2010-12-13 17:40:45 <xelister> and pollocks
2524 2010-12-13 17:40:58 <ArtForz> xelister: brown people don't count *ducks*
2525 2010-12-13 17:41:17 <xelister> while in other situation just saying then N- word, or thinking the J- word, is milion lawsuits from jeeeeeews
2526 2010-12-13 17:44:46 arcatan_ has joined
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2529 2010-12-13 17:49:38 <genjix> jigger?
2530 2010-12-13 17:49:48 <genjix> :o
2531 2010-12-13 17:50:03 <genjix> news and jiggers huh
2532 2010-12-13 17:54:13 <Kiba> boobs..
2533 2010-12-13 17:55:14 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2536 2010-12-13 18:08:17 <gavinandresen> Anybody willing to code review and/or try out some new RPC features?  https://gist.github.com/739337
2537 2010-12-13 18:11:33 <genjix> yes later
2538 2010-12-13 18:11:50 <genjix> heh there's that feature
2539 2010-12-13 18:12:04 <gavinandresen> genjix: thanks, later works (I'm about to go grab lunch...)
2540 2010-12-13 18:12:11 <donpdonp> i looked over it, trying to recall my C++ skillz which are very rusty. :)
2541 2010-12-13 18:12:39 arcatan has joined
2542 2010-12-13 18:13:20 <gavinandresen> New features are:  listaccounts, listtransactions '*', and -rpctimeout (fix the denial-of-service potential problem Mt`Away found)
2543 2010-12-13 18:13:43 nelisky has joined
2544 2010-12-13 18:16:45 <MT`AwAy> :)
2545 2010-12-13 18:16:48 <MT`AwAy> finally a listaccounts
2546 2010-12-13 18:18:38 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2547 2010-12-13 18:21:24 skx has joined
2548 2010-12-13 18:21:40 <skx> ;;help
2549 2010-12-13 18:21:41 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
2550 2010-12-13 18:21:42 <skx> !help
2551 2010-12-13 18:22:00 <genjix> ;;bc,help
2552 2010-12-13 18:22:00 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
2553 2010-12-13 18:22:06 <genjix> ;;bc,totalbc
2554 2010-12-13 18:22:07 <gribble> 4869050.00000000
2555 2010-12-13 18:22:07 <genjix> ;)
2556 2010-12-13 18:22:11 <skx> thanks
2557 2010-12-13 18:22:40 <skx> ;;bc,calc 2976
2558 2010-12-13 18:22:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2976 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 29 weeks, 1 day, 15 hours, 42 minutes, and 33 seconds
2559 2010-12-13 18:22:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it would be nice to find a way around hardcoding HTTP Content-Length
2560 2010-12-13 18:23:02 asdf30 has joined
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2562 2010-12-13 18:23:43 Azetab has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2563 2010-12-13 18:23:58 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: easy, but not even close to the top of the priority list.....
2564 2010-12-13 18:24:02 Azetab has joined
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2574 2010-12-13 19:03:40 <MT`AwAy> gavinandresen, do you think it could be possible to identify testnet from the version packet, for example by using a bit in nServices ?
2575 2010-12-13 19:04:37 <MT`AwAy> could allow dropping misleaded connections right from the start
2576 2010-12-13 19:09:03 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2577 2010-12-13 19:12:47 <gavinandresen> MT`AwAy: testnet has a different pchMessageStart, so the two nets can't read each other's messages at all...
2578 2010-12-13 19:13:23 phantomcircuit has joined
2579 2010-12-13 19:13:46 Hoffman has joined
2580 2010-12-13 19:14:31 <Hoffman> phantomcircuit: so like I was saying, a few questions
2581 2010-12-13 19:14:38 <phantomcircuit> yup
2582 2010-12-13 19:14:54 <Hoffman> - How is it verified that only 50 are created per second, and how is it verified which 50 are the correct ones if more than 50 are created
2583 2010-12-13 19:15:12 <Hoffman> - How is this money originally allocated upon creation, and what is the jusfication for however it is allocated
2584 2010-12-13 19:16:15 <phantomcircuit> Hoffman, it's not verified, that's an approximate based on the probability of hitting below the target given the last generated block
2585 2010-12-13 19:16:26 <phantomcircuit> or the last block of generated blocks
2586 2010-12-13 19:17:03 <phantomcircuit> Hoffman, bitcoins are allocated based on a lottery which is based on a hard to solve math problem basically
2587 2010-12-13 19:17:05 <gavinandresen> Hoffman:  see the first answer on this page, it might help:  http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=more_faqs
2588 2010-12-13 19:17:08 <Hoffman> when you say below, do you mean below if the hashes are ranked in an alphanumeric order
2589 2010-12-13 19:17:15 <phantomcircuit> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=technical_series
2590 2010-12-13 19:17:18 <jgarzik> Hoffman: the computer that solves a difficult math problem gets 50 bitcoins.  the math problem's difficulty is adjusted to make it likely that the math problem is solved every 10 minutes.
2591 2010-12-13 19:17:19 <Hoffman> gavinandresen: thats what Im reading
2592 2010-12-13 19:17:30 <phantomcircuit> Hoffman, http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=technical_series
2593 2010-12-13 19:17:41 <Hoffman> thanks phantomcircuit
2594 2010-12-13 19:17:46 <Hoffman> I like to dig into the cuts
2595 2010-12-13 19:17:51 <Hoffman> guts*
2596 2010-12-13 19:18:08 <jgarzik> Hoffman: hashes are converted into little endian integers, and compared numerically not alphabetically
2597 2010-12-13 19:18:28 <Hoffman> I see - what determines the "target"?
2598 2010-12-13 19:19:19 <jgarzik> Hoffman: the rolling difficulty calculation.  every week or so, the software checks to see if blocks are produced (a) faster or (b) slower than every 10 minutes.  difficulty target is adjusted based on this 10-minute production target.
2599 2010-12-13 19:19:45 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: it is possible to identify testnet from every message header
2600 2010-12-13 19:19:52 <Hoffman> jgarzik: what prevents somebody from using already-generated rainbow tables to submit the correct hash?
2601 2010-12-13 19:20:30 <jgarzik> Hoffman: the data being hashed is highly dynamic
2602 2010-12-13 19:20:45 <phantomcircuit> Hoffman, those would be some pretty big rainbow tables
2603 2010-12-13 19:20:48 <jgarzik> Hoffman: ifyou are technical, read the bitcoin paper
2604 2010-12-13 19:21:12 <phantomcircuit> the more interesting attack is against the difficulty calculation ...
2605 2010-12-13 19:21:34 <Hoffman> jgarzik: is this the bitcoin paper: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=technical_series
2606 2010-12-13 19:21:54 <Hoffman> or is there a whitepaper somewhere too
2607 2010-12-13 19:21:56 <jgarzik> Hoffman: no.  http://www.bitcoin.org/sites/default/files/bitcoin.pdf
2608 2010-12-13 19:22:00 <phantomcircuit> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=technical_documentation
2609 2010-12-13 19:22:07 <Hoffman> thanks jgarzik and phantomcircuit
2610 2010-12-13 19:22:10 <jgarzik> Hoffman: see also http://www.bitcoin.org/faq
2611 2010-12-13 19:22:18 <Hoffman> this will be interesting to read
2612 2010-12-13 19:22:30 <jgarzik> Hoffman: bitcoin is a distributed timestamp service, basically
2613 2010-12-13 19:22:40 <edcba> Hoffman: blocks are "salted" with previous hash block
2614 2010-12-13 19:22:51 <Hoffman> jgarzik: Im more interested in the "how and why" of the "how", so the FAQs dont sate my curiousity just by saying that stuff is done without explaining the method
2615 2010-12-13 19:23:09 <Hoffman> but the rest of the links are interesting
2616 2010-12-13 19:23:11 <Hoffman> thanks
2617 2010-12-13 19:24:16 <appamatto> Do you think bitcoin is difficult to understand?
2618 2010-12-13 19:25:50 <edcba> bitcoin client is difficult to understand, not the general principle
2619 2010-12-13 19:25:53 <phantomcircuit> so question
2620 2010-12-13 19:27:17 <phantomcircuit> if i just started throwing around bogus trasactions
2621 2010-12-13 19:27:26 <phantomcircuit> nvm
2622 2010-12-13 19:27:41 <jgarzik> appamatto: bitcoin is quite different from everything else out there, so it's a lot of new concepts to grasp
2623 2010-12-13 19:30:24 <Kiba> bitcoin protocol is hard to understand
2624 2010-12-13 19:30:28 <Kiba> but conceptually easy to use
2625 2010-12-13 19:30:31 <Kiba> that's my impression
2626 2010-12-13 19:32:49 satamusic has joined
2627 2010-12-13 19:33:44 <phantomcircuit> rofl
2628 2010-12-13 19:33:49 <phantomcircuit> the makefile.unix is terrible
2629 2010-12-13 19:34:01 <phantomcircuit> first off why is it using CFLAGS for g++?
2630 2010-12-13 19:35:15 StrangeCharm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2631 2010-12-13 19:35:23 <BitCoinz> since it does not support G-spots :P
2632 2010-12-13 19:35:54 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  get together with CDecker, I believe he's been working on better packaging/building for *nix
2633 2010-12-13 19:36:15 <phantomcircuit> if the makefile is indicative of the rest of the code ill just be stealing all your bitcoins right about now
2634 2010-12-13 19:36:57 BitCoinz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2635 2010-12-13 19:37:04 satamusic_ has joined
2636 2010-12-13 19:37:24 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  it's not.  And knock yourself out, we need more people to review the code and find actual or potential problems.
2637 2010-12-13 19:38:08 <gavinandresen> (you'll be a lot more popular if you restrict any experimenting to the -testnet, though)
2638 2010-12-13 19:38:31 <phantomcircuit> i think ill sell exploits to the russian mob
2639 2010-12-13 19:38:37 <phantomcircuit> they seem to know what they're doing
2640 2010-12-13 19:38:45 <ArtForz> yeah, I think you're spouting BS
2641 2010-12-13 19:39:07 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, i may be but the makefile.unix doesnt even make use of wx-config-w.9
2642 2010-12-13 19:39:12 <phantomcircuit> which is some pretty basic shit
2643 2010-12-13 19:39:38 <ArtForz> dude, EVERYONE knows the current makefile is a mess
2644 2010-12-13 19:40:07 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2645 2010-12-13 19:40:13 <ArtForz> and everything-and-the-kitchensink in main.cpp isn't ideal either
2646 2010-12-13 19:41:39 wizeman has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2647 2010-12-13 19:41:43 wizeman_ has joined
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2651 2010-12-13 19:47:52 altamic has joined
2652 2010-12-13 19:48:47 BitCoinz has joined
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2655 2010-12-13 19:53:52 satamusic has joined
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2657 2010-12-13 19:55:10 grondilu has joined
2658 2010-12-13 19:55:29 <grondilu> I see there is a 0.3.19 ?
2659 2010-12-13 19:56:37 <albatross_> little too quick with the versions these days
2660 2010-12-13 19:56:39 RazielZ has quit ()
2661 2010-12-13 19:57:26 <arcatan> is there a changelog somewhere?
2662 2010-12-13 19:59:11 <BitCoinz> hmm the ming pool is down again..
2663 2010-12-13 19:59:26 <BitCoinz> mining*
2664 2010-12-13 20:02:35 <glassresistor> what are the changes?
2665 2010-12-13 20:05:32 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2666 2010-12-13 20:05:41 <appamatto> Is it bad design to make a program as an asynchronous group of daemons connected by sockets?
2667 2010-12-13 20:05:43 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2668 2010-12-13 20:06:19 <zygf> see HURD :P
2669 2010-12-13 20:06:27 <appamatto> haha
2670 2010-12-13 20:07:01 <jgarzik> appamatto: it's more pieces that can fail; more failure scenarios
2671 2010-12-13 20:07:08 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2672 2010-12-13 20:10:37 grondilu has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2673 2010-12-13 20:11:25 satamusic has joined
2674 2010-12-13 20:11:30 <wumpus> appamatto: that's a pretty interesting approach, not bad design per ce
2675 2010-12-13 20:13:26 <albatross_> tcatm: mtgoxusd order book not updating
2676 2010-12-13 20:18:26 <genjix> thats called the unix way
2677 2010-12-13 20:18:32 <genjix> it's how systemv works
2678 2010-12-13 20:20:35 albatross_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2679 2010-12-13 20:24:46 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2680 2010-12-13 20:25:49 satamusic has joined
2681 2010-12-13 20:25:50 <tcatm> mtgox: your websocket ist down
2682 2010-12-13 20:25:53 <appamatto> I've never really written a significant C program before
2683 2010-12-13 20:26:02 <appamatto> It's pretty fun
2684 2010-12-13 20:26:47 <Kiba> DOWNISM!
2685 2010-12-13 20:27:23 <Kiba> so, anybody want to buy character spot in my next art project?
2686 2010-12-13 20:27:27 albatross_ has joined
2687 2010-12-13 20:27:30 <Kiba> err
2688 2010-12-13 20:27:30 <Kiba> bid
2689 2010-12-13 20:29:18 <tcatm> albatross_: it's a problem at mtgox. will be fixed soon
2690 2010-12-13 20:29:50 jeff-b has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2691 2010-12-13 20:30:43 <albatross_> tcatm: ok. thanks
2692 2010-12-13 20:30:43 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2693 2010-12-13 20:40:44 <aksez> how many blocks do i need to DL to catch up?
2694 2010-12-13 20:40:54 <zygf> 97k
2695 2010-12-13 20:41:02 <aksez> thanks
2696 2010-12-13 20:41:09 <ArtForz> ;;bc,blocks
2697 2010-12-13 20:41:10 <gribble> 97396
2698 2010-12-13 20:41:19 <aksez> ;;bc,blocks
2699 2010-12-13 20:41:20 <gribble> 97396
2700 2010-12-13 20:41:45 Hoffman has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2701 2010-12-13 20:41:54 <ArtForz> useful bot is useful :)
2702 2010-12-13 20:42:04 satamusic has joined
2703 2010-12-13 20:42:09 <aksez> how can i find how many khps i have
2704 2010-12-13 20:42:36 <aksez> ;;bc,help
2705 2010-12-13 20:42:36 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
2706 2010-12-13 20:42:59 <aksez> ;;bc,calc help
2707 2010-12-13 20:42:59 <gribble> Error: 'help' is not a defined function.
2708 2010-12-13 20:43:00 <ArtForz> your node only starts generating after it has all blocks
2709 2010-12-13 20:43:20 <ArtForz> for bitcoind, "bitcoind getinfo" outputs hashespersec
2710 2010-12-13 20:43:20 <aksez> im getting there ArtForz ;-)
2711 2010-12-13 20:43:35 <ArtForz> for GUI bitcoin, bottom left corner of status bar
2712 2010-12-13 20:45:45 Lyspooner has joined
2713 2010-12-13 20:45:57 <aksez> ArtForz, are u using gui or status bar?
2714 2010-12-13 20:46:18 <ArtForz> gui
2715 2010-12-13 20:50:36 <aksez> ;;bc,blocks
2716 2010-12-13 20:50:36 <gribble> 97401
2717 2010-12-13 20:50:49 <Lyspooner> ArtForz, did you use the new markets at bitcoinsportsbook to hedge your generating?
2718 2010-12-13 20:51:41 <ArtForz> nope
2719 2010-12-13 20:51:58 <Lyspooner> could be prudent
2720 2010-12-13 20:52:00 <Granttt> can use them to leverage your mining now too (sort of) ;)
2721 2010-12-13 20:53:11 <aksez> ;;bc,calc
2722 2010-12-13 20:53:11 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
2723 2010-12-13 20:53:42 <aksez> ;;bc,calc 1254
2724 2010-12-13 20:53:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1254 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 year, 17 weeks, 1 day, 16 hours, 29 minutes, and 47 seconds
2725 2010-12-13 20:53:56 <Lyspooner> BDF Over 250k by end of March = 8.6:1, mtgox price under 0.10 by end of jan = 7.8:1
2726 2010-12-13 20:54:09 <ArtForz> I prefer working on new solutions to push hash/W to a whole new level
2727 2010-12-13 20:54:17 <aksez> and if i get a block thats 50 bitcoins?
2728 2010-12-13 20:55:05 <Lyspooner> that's a nice goal, but it leaves you exposed to DF/price movement
2729 2010-12-13 20:55:15 <Granttt> lyspooner: i doubt the 0.10 bet will get enough liquidity to gain any substantial amounts
2730 2010-12-13 20:55:29 <ArtForz> got first size and power estimates back, <10W @ 200MHps
2731 2010-12-13 20:55:51 <aksez> what the hell, i dont believe!
2732 2010-12-13 20:56:41 <Lyspooner> Is BSB a bookie or a betting exchange?
2733 2010-12-13 20:57:31 <Dashkal> What's a reasonable block gen 50% time with commodity hardware?  The calculator is failing my sanity check... (saying 4 hrs)
2734 2010-12-13 20:57:52 <ArtForz> ignore 50% time, avg is interesting
2735 2010-12-13 20:57:58 <Dashkal> 6hrs
2736 2010-12-13 20:58:20 <ArtForz> yep, sounds reasonable
2737 2010-12-13 20:58:24 <ArtForz> quad 5970s ?
2738 2010-12-13 20:58:40 <Dashkal> actually, that CPU isn't very new.  Dual 2800s
2739 2010-12-13 20:58:52 <ArtForz> off-by-3-orders-of-magnitude
2740 2010-12-13 20:58:55 <Dashkal> cpuinfo says 2411 MHz
2741 2010-12-13 20:59:16 <ArtForz> that should give maybe 3000khash
2742 2010-12-13 20:59:32 <Dashkal> bitcoind getinfo reports 2323623
2743 2010-12-13 20:59:49 <ArtForz> okay, so 2324 khash
2744 2010-12-13 20:59:55 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 2324
2745 2010-12-13 20:59:56 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2324 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 37 weeks, 3 days, 1 hour, 41 minutes, and 35 seconds
2746 2010-12-13 21:00:11 <Dashkal> ok, much saner
2747 2010-12-13 21:00:58 <Dashkal> ;;bc,diff
2748 2010-12-13 21:00:59 <gribble> 12252.03471156
2749 2010-12-13 21:01:34 <Dashkal> Ok, I see why I was confused.  the online calc wants khps but bc gives hps
2750 2010-12-13 21:01:39 <ArtForz> yep
2751 2010-12-13 21:01:45 <ArtForz> happens a lot
2752 2010-12-13 21:02:36 altamic has joined
2753 2010-12-13 21:02:41 satamusic_ has joined
2754 2010-12-13 21:02:45 <ArtForz> and yes, 4 HD5970 graphics cards do about 1000x that
2755 2010-12-13 21:02:46 <Lyspooner> ;;bc,calc 2323623
2756 2010-12-13 21:02:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2323623 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 6 hours, 17 minutes, and 26 seconds
2757 2010-12-13 21:02:47 <MT`AwAy> Dashkal: bitcoind gives hps, bitcoin gives khps
2758 2010-12-13 21:03:13 <ArtForz> GUI displays khps, getinfo reports hps, calc and generation calculator want khps
2759 2010-12-13 21:03:25 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2760 2010-12-13 21:03:34 <Dashkal> I believe it, but lack the hardware (or the technical knowledge to run stuff on it)
2761 2010-12-13 21:04:08 <Lyspooner> what is d(Ave time to generate a block)/d(khps)?
2762 2010-12-13 21:04:10 <MT`AwAy> I tried to run a GPU miner here, froze my computer almost completly (by hitting ^C I finally got control back)
2763 2010-12-13 21:04:30 <ArtForz> 4 overclocked HD5970s average about 2.5Ghps (and consume about 1300W...)
2764 2010-12-13 21:05:21 <ArtForz> pastebin'd a table yesterday: http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
2765 2010-12-13 21:06:46 <ArtForz> the numbers for nv are theoretical, speeds for ATI are also theoretical but are within 1% of real results at least for 4870, 5770 and 5970
2766 2010-12-13 21:07:09 <Lyspooner> do you care more about Mhash/s or Mhash/W?  looks like you have access to all the hardware you need
2767 2010-12-13 21:07:20 <ArtForz> Mhash/W
2768 2010-12-13 21:07:44 <ArtForz> that's why I'm running mostly 5970s
2769 2010-12-13 21:08:55 <Dashkal> ;;bc,calc 6046
2770 2010-12-13 21:08:56 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 6046 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 14 weeks, 2 days, 17 hours, 40 minutes, and 20 seconds
2771 2010-12-13 21:09:08 <Lyspooner> but if you found  a way to make the 6870s' mhash/W higher than the 5970's, you'd run those?  i have no idea how much these things cost, or how much time you have to spend making them ready
2772 2010-12-13 21:09:13 <Dashkal> ok, need to make a daemon script for the main pc.  much better number there
2773 2010-12-13 21:09:32 <ArtForz> wont happen
2774 2010-12-13 21:09:37 <aksez> ;;bc,calc 2042
2775 2010-12-13 21:09:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2042 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 42 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes, and 56 seconds
2776 2010-12-13 21:09:49 <ArtForz> 68xx run at a lot higher voltage than 58xx
2777 2010-12-13 21:10:19 <Lyspooner> like 1000 more voltages
2778 2010-12-13 21:10:27 <Lyspooner> see what i did there?
2779 2010-12-13 21:10:40 <ArtForz> going for efficiency undervolted 5970 is probably best way
2780 2010-12-13 21:10:50 <Lyspooner> so 5570's?
2781 2010-12-13 21:11:14 <ArtForz> dont forget the rest of the box uses some power, too
2782 2010-12-13 21:11:31 <Dashkal> I take that back, I do have a card capable of this.
2783 2010-12-13 21:11:57 <ArtForz> only having 1* cpu+chipset+ram+... per 8 GPU cores helps push total efficiency
2784 2010-12-13 21:12:33 <Lyspooner> how do you amortize a GPU that generates so many mhash/s
2785 2010-12-13 21:12:59 <Lyspooner> they must melt or explode all the time
2786 2010-12-13 21:13:04 <Lyspooner> or vaporize
2787 2010-12-13 21:13:20 <ArtForz> actually they've been running fine for months now
2788 2010-12-13 21:13:32 <ArtForz> and they already paid for themselves, so if they wanna blow up, fine
2789 2010-12-13 21:13:47 <ArtForz> only casualties are a total of 4 PSUs
2790 2010-12-13 21:13:49 <Lyspooner> no, not fine, but what's their resale value
2791 2010-12-13 21:14:04 <ArtForz> same as any other 5970 on ebay :P
2792 2010-12-13 21:15:12 jeff-b has joined
2793 2010-12-13 21:16:12 jeff-b has left ()
2794 2010-12-13 21:16:29 <ArtForz> 3 PSUs RMAed, the 4th I fixed myself
2795 2010-12-13 21:17:45 <ArtForz> well, actually 2 RMAd, one replacement DOA, RMAd
2796 2010-12-13 21:18:12 jeff-b has joined
2797 2010-12-13 21:21:07 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 160000
2798 2010-12-13 21:21:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 160000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 days, 19 hours, 21 minutes, and 28 seconds
2799 2010-12-13 21:21:13 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 530000
2800 2010-12-13 21:21:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 530000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 day, 3 hours, 34 minutes, and 46 seconds
2801 2010-12-13 21:21:48 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 15787168
2802 2010-12-13 21:21:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 15787168 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 55 minutes and 33 seconds
2803 2010-12-13 21:22:33 kaspar1 has joined
2804 2010-12-13 21:23:55 kaspar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2805 2010-12-13 21:30:33 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2806 2010-12-13 21:31:20 <jchysk> what's average time to generate a block at 45,000 Khps?
2807 2010-12-13 21:31:38 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 45000
2808 2010-12-13 21:31:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 45000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 49 minutes, and 39 seconds
2809 2010-12-13 21:31:58 <jchysk> meh, guess I'm not gonna get rich anytime soon
2810 2010-12-13 21:31:58 <jchysk> haha
2811 2010-12-13 21:32:42 satamusic has joined
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2813 2010-12-13 21:33:38 <ArtForz> well, >100btc/month isnt THAT bad
2814 2010-12-13 21:34:59 <BitCoinz> thats line 20 € a month ;)
2815 2010-12-13 21:35:03 <BitCoinz> like*
2816 2010-12-13 21:35:06 <ArtForz> yup
2817 2010-12-13 21:35:24 <[Noodles]> more than u'll ever get from folding
2818 2010-12-13 21:35:31 <BitCoinz> x10 :P
2819 2010-12-13 21:35:41 <ArtForz> x infinity
2820 2010-12-13 21:35:52 <BitCoinz> :D
2821 2010-12-13 21:35:58 <ArtForz> I generate about 1200-1300btc/day
2822 2010-12-13 21:36:13 <BitCoinz> yeah you are rich already :P
2823 2010-12-13 21:36:18 <ArtForz> yep
2824 2010-12-13 21:37:45 <BitCoinz> time to buy my first 5970
2825 2010-12-13 21:37:53 <BitCoinz> and get it to work
2826 2010-12-13 21:38:00 <ArtForz> good luck
2827 2010-12-13 21:38:02 <BitCoinz> after i can expand
2828 2010-12-13 21:38:28 <BitCoinz> tnx
2829 2010-12-13 21:38:34 <BitCoinz> i will need that  i think
2830 2010-12-13 21:39:03 <ArtForz> if difficulty keeps going x1.4 every 10 days, yeah
2831 2010-12-13 21:39:06 <BitCoinz> and with some advises and help
2832 2010-12-13 21:40:19 ColonelPanic1 has joined
2833 2010-12-13 21:41:01 <Dashkal> ArtForz: How's your total cost-of-power to BTC ratio?
2834 2010-12-13 21:41:05 ColonelPanic2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2835 2010-12-13 21:41:11 <ArtForz> 0
2836 2010-12-13 21:41:24 <BitCoinz> are you going to expand equal to the difficulty ArtForce?
2837 2010-12-13 21:41:30 <ArtForz> nope
2838 2010-12-13 21:41:44 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2839 2010-12-13 21:41:54 <ArtForz> I'm limited by generator capacity
2840 2010-12-13 21:42:26 <jgarzik> ArtForz: what kind of generator?  </curious>
2841 2010-12-13 21:42:31 <jgarzik> diesel?
2842 2010-12-13 21:42:32 <Dashkal> wait, generator capacity but 0 cost/btu?
2843 2010-12-13 21:42:32 <ArtForz> yup
2844 2010-12-13 21:42:40 <ArtForz> combined heat+power
2845 2010-12-13 21:42:46 <ArtForz> and it's winter here
2846 2010-12-13 21:42:52 devon_hillard_ has joined
2847 2010-12-13 21:42:59 <BitCoinz> so there will be a moment that mining is not profitable enough in my opinion
2848 2010-12-13 21:43:19 <jgarzik> BitCoinz: that moment is different for each person
2849 2010-12-13 21:43:22 <ArtForz> yep
2850 2010-12-13 21:43:31 devon_hillard has quit (Disconnected by services)
2851 2010-12-13 21:43:39 <BitCoinz> how that?
2852 2010-12-13 21:43:50 <ArtForz> not everyone pays the same for power
2853 2010-12-13 21:44:00 <jgarzik> BitCoinz: everybody has different hardware costs, power costs, cooling costs, investment in the network...
2854 2010-12-13 21:44:05 <BitCoinz> yeah that firstly
2855 2010-12-13 21:44:16 devon_hillard_ has left ()
2856 2010-12-13 21:44:29 <MT`AwAy> some people also replace their heating with bitcoin generation
2857 2010-12-13 21:44:32 * jgarzik looked into solar panels for bitcoin generation power (yes, really)
2858 2010-12-13 21:45:10 <BitCoinz> solars are expensive too
2859 2010-12-13 21:45:43 <BitCoinz> everything is expensive in netherland
2860 2010-12-13 21:45:45 <ArtForz> western europe is ~USD 0.25-0.3/kWh, US is all over the place, canada looks pretty cheap
2861 2010-12-13 21:46:10 <Dashkal> I currently have fixed power cost, but that would change if my usage spiked.
2862 2010-12-13 21:47:25 <BitCoinz> lets move to canada and build a mining plant :D
2863 2010-12-13 21:47:57 <ArtForz> still waiting for the first miner to get a visit from a TLA looking for pot
2864 2010-12-13 21:48:42 <BitCoinz> TLA?
2865 2010-12-13 21:48:48 <ArtForz> Three Letter Agency
2866 2010-12-13 21:49:00 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: reference to the AMD ad?
2867 2010-12-13 21:49:10 <ArtForz> yup
2868 2010-12-13 21:49:13 <MT`AwAy> :þ
2869 2010-12-13 21:49:19 <Dashkal> I could see it.  Person with high power usage constaly getting money
2870 2010-12-13 21:49:41 <ArtForz> and reference to the guy in the UK who got a visit because he runs a server farm in his basement
2871 2010-12-13 21:50:06 <BitCoinz> lol
2872 2010-12-13 21:50:19 <Granttt> we need decentralized p2p powerplants now ;)
2873 2010-12-13 21:50:46 <Dashkal> I'm pretty sure I can sell power to the grid... we could probably manage that with enough hardware :P
2874 2010-12-13 21:51:09 <Granttt> well its been already done (nikolai tesla), only it never went through
2875 2010-12-13 21:51:19 <MT`AwAy> I know that in France if you generate power, the electricity company is legally required to accept to buy it from you
2876 2010-12-13 21:51:35 <ArtForz> same in .de, just the rates they're paying are a fucking joke
2877 2010-12-13 21:51:53 <MT`AwAy> I have no idea of the rates and never tried, but I found the idea funny
2878 2010-12-13 21:53:06 <ArtForz> and of course the 2nd meter fee, set up fee, administrative fees, line usage fees, just-because and fee calculation fees
2879 2010-12-13 21:53:39 <Dashkal> mmm, fee calculation fee
2880 2010-12-13 21:53:43 <Granttt> fee calculation fees < LOL
2881 2010-12-13 21:53:55 StrangeCharm has joined
2882 2010-12-13 21:53:55 <BitCoinz> tnx to our governments
2883 2010-12-13 21:54:03 jchysk1 has joined
2884 2010-12-13 21:54:19 <BitCoinz> moneylurkers
2885 2010-12-13 21:54:49 <BitCoinz> and those stupids loads huge amounts of debts on our shoulders
2886 2010-12-13 21:55:49 <BitCoinz> filling debt with debts
2887 2010-12-13 21:56:03 <ArtForz> numbers look different for renewable energy (nice govt funded bonus there), but with my dino juice cogeneration I'm better off going on-grid/off-grid with a load transfer switch
2888 2010-12-13 21:56:27 jchysk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2889 2010-12-13 21:57:45 satamusic has joined
2890 2010-12-13 21:58:23 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2891 2010-12-13 21:58:26 <BitCoinz> our government removed funding bonusses for solar energy
2892 2010-12-13 21:59:16 <ArtForz> our govt reduced em, but it's still quite substantial
2893 2010-12-13 22:00:23 <BitCoinz> you government will go bankrupt if they keep paying for countries like greece and ireland etc;)
2894 2010-12-13 22:01:13 <BitCoinz> same issue here
2895 2010-12-13 22:01:44 <ArtForz> yeah, imo a bit braindead, but whats the alternative?
2896 2010-12-13 22:02:26 <BitCoinz> thats easy...step out of europe
2897 2010-12-13 22:02:38 <BitCoinz> be like Norway
2898 2010-12-13 22:02:53 albatross_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2899 2010-12-13 22:02:57 <BitCoinz> or even Sweden and Denmark
2900 2010-12-13 22:02:58 satamusic_ has joined
2901 2010-12-13 22:03:09 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2902 2010-12-13 22:03:16 <BitCoinz> their situation is much better than ours
2903 2010-12-13 22:04:10 <jgarzik> solar power is -expensive-.  huge capital investment for very little power output compared to other solutions.  I love solar power, and am planning to put it on my home's roof... but am still honest enough to admit large scale solar remains a boondoggled pipedream.
2904 2010-12-13 22:04:14 <BitCoinz> the dutch crowed said no to europe by referndum, but the government pushes yes
2905 2010-12-13 22:04:28 <jgarzik> subsidies would be better spent elsewhere
2906 2010-12-13 22:04:36 <ArtForz> err, danish krone is pegged to euro
2907 2010-12-13 22:04:43 * jgarzik refers to photovoltaic solar
2908 2010-12-13 22:04:49 <ArtForz> yep
2909 2010-12-13 22:05:11 <ArtForz> solar thermal gives better ROI
2910 2010-12-13 22:05:57 <jgarzik> is solar thermal where a field of reflectors concentrate solar radiation onto a central tower?
2911 2010-12-13 22:06:08 <ArtForz> yup
2912 2010-12-13 22:06:29 <jgarzik> yeah, that's a bit easier to build and maintain than photovoltaic, too
2913 2010-12-13 22:06:50 <ArtForz> or runs of parabolic half-pipes with tubes
2914 2010-12-13 22:07:24 <ArtForz> makes way more sense for large scale solar power generation
2915 2010-12-13 22:08:06 <ArtForz> but to get decent efficiency you have to build them kinda close to the equator
2916 2010-12-13 22:09:21 <ArtForz> southern spain is barely decent, makes more sense in africa
2917 2010-12-13 22:12:57 <BitCoinz> i saw something new, they managed to put electricity producing DNA to bacteria, runnng in fluid trough pipes placed in sunlight
2918 2010-12-13 22:16:45 theymos has joined
2919 2010-12-13 22:17:14 <BitCoinz> there are enough alternatives in my opinion, but as long multinationals suck big money energy will stay expensive
2920 2010-12-13 22:22:09 nanotube__ has joined
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2923 2010-12-13 22:32:20 jeff-b has left ()
2924 2010-12-13 22:33:46 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
2925 2010-12-13 22:34:43 altamic has joined
2926 2010-12-13 22:35:08 <appamatto> BitCoinz, is it possible for the current member states to leave the EU?
2927 2010-12-13 22:35:54 <BitCoinz> of course it is
2928 2010-12-13 22:36:18 <appamatto> We should've called states "sovereign nations" instead of states
2929 2010-12-13 22:36:26 <BitCoinz> only the governement is not willing, they rather stich to the europe lie
2930 2010-12-13 22:36:38 <appamatto> (in the US)
2931 2010-12-13 22:36:55 <BitCoinz> yeah that would have been better
2932 2010-12-13 22:36:59 <appamatto> the word state just means province now
2933 2010-12-13 22:37:05 <BitCoinz> a kind of coöperation
2934 2010-12-13 22:37:10 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2935 2010-12-13 22:37:57 <BitCoinz> but now our govnment sells out our soevereinity
2936 2010-12-13 22:38:09 <BitCoinz> to a lie!
2937 2010-12-13 22:38:28 <BitCoinz> eurpe is not democratic
2938 2010-12-13 22:39:12 <BitCoinz> rompuy is even not choosen on a democratic way
2939 2010-12-13 22:39:39 <BitCoinz> and Obama is a false president
2940 2010-12-13 22:39:48 <BitCoinz> he is not an american
2941 2010-12-13 22:40:13 <BitCoinz> and he cheats with the muslimcountries
2942 2010-12-13 22:40:20 <Kiba> who fucking care
2943 2010-12-13 22:40:25 <Kiba> we don't fucking care about democracy
2944 2010-12-13 22:40:28 <BitCoinz> he destroys america
2945 2010-12-13 22:40:32 * Kiba yawn.
2946 2010-12-13 22:41:14 <Kiba> democracy is two wolves and one chicken deciding what to eat for dinner.
2947 2010-12-13 22:41:45 <BitCoinz> well thats not
2948 2010-12-13 22:42:05 <BitCoinz> thats what it looks like now
2949 2010-12-13 22:42:16 <appamatto> Well, let's just say that democracy's checks and balances aren't as thorough as bitcoin's
2950 2010-12-13 22:42:34 <Kiba> bitcoin don't need no damn democracy
2951 2010-12-13 22:42:41 <altamic> hahah
2952 2010-12-13 22:42:44 <BitCoinz> indeed
2953 2010-12-13 22:43:25 <BitCoinz> democrats should do what the blebs choose
2954 2010-12-13 22:43:31 <BitCoinz> but they dont
2955 2010-12-13 22:43:40 <appamatto> That's a good point.  btc will be an extremely stable system that doesn't require any legislation
2956 2010-12-13 22:43:55 <Kiba> democracy commit sucide. It will alway vote itself money.
2957 2010-12-13 22:43:57 <appamatto> the proof in the pudding so to speak
2958 2010-12-13 22:44:02 <Kiba> it will make the population undisciplined
2959 2010-12-13 22:44:18 <ArtForz> Kiba: agree
2960 2010-12-13 22:44:23 <Kiba> and it fuels the population's emotional rather than its long-term thinking
2961 2010-12-13 22:44:29 RichardG has joined
2962 2010-12-13 22:44:36 <Kiba> mob rule
2963 2010-12-13 22:44:42 <Kiba> like Anonymous
2964 2010-12-13 22:44:50 Lyspooner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2965 2010-12-13 22:45:40 <BitCoinz> mobs should rule
2966 2010-12-13 22:45:48 josswr has joined
2967 2010-12-13 22:45:49 <Kiba> Politicans does do what the people wnat
2968 2010-12-13 22:45:55 <BitCoinz> agree
2969 2010-12-13 22:45:57 <Kiba> it's called "representative"
2970 2010-12-13 22:46:07 <BitCoinz> but they are not
2971 2010-12-13 22:46:26 <Kiba> yes, they are.
2972 2010-12-13 22:46:35 <Kiba> and screw them
2973 2010-12-13 22:47:04 <BitCoinz> becuz they are not we have Geer wilders here
2974 2010-12-13 22:47:22 * Kiba goes do his math study
2975 2010-12-13 22:47:30 <ArtForz> politicans do what their voters want
2976 2010-12-13 22:47:31 jchysk1 is now known as jchysk
2977 2010-12-13 22:47:35 <BitCoinz> we kikcked dictators asses
2978 2010-12-13 22:49:16 <genjix> smells fascist in here
2979 2010-12-13 22:49:21 <genjix> nazis
2980 2010-12-13 22:49:48 <BitCoinz> the masses are getting awake more and more and so the anti eupe crowd
2981 2010-12-13 22:50:54 <BitCoinz> we want to rule our own country and not by europe
2982 2010-12-13 22:51:16 <ArtForz> keep dreaming
2983 2010-12-13 22:51:36 <BitCoinz> its reality
2984 2010-12-13 22:52:32 <altamic> nothing new under the sun
2985 2010-12-13 22:52:32 <altamic> who owns gold make the rulez
2986 2010-12-13 22:52:58 <ArtForz> ahh, the golden rule ;)
2987 2010-12-13 22:53:37 <BitCoinz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8jhFvaaas7U
2988 2010-12-13 22:53:38 <kaspar1> Gold rulez? ;)
2989 2010-12-13 22:53:53 kaspar1 is now known as kaspar
2990 2010-12-13 22:54:02 pfunked has joined
2991 2010-12-13 22:54:18 <appamatto> Any simple yet interesting cryptosystems or protocols that I can have fun implementing in a day or so?
2992 2010-12-13 22:54:31 <appamatto> I had a good time with cubehash, although very simple
2993 2010-12-13 22:54:39 <genjix> appamatto: yep try breaking xor encryption
2994 2010-12-13 22:54:42 <BitCoinz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jug-W-DKcms&feature=related
2995 2010-12-13 22:54:43 <ArtForz> I kinda like this one "If you believe in infinite exponential growth, you're either nuts or an economist"
2996 2010-12-13 22:55:00 <appamatto> genjix, breaking xor encryption?
2997 2010-12-13 22:55:03 <appamatto> Is that difficult?
2998 2010-12-13 22:55:11 <genjix> let me find you the webpage
2999 2010-12-13 22:55:18 <genjix> no it's easy + fun + informative
3000 2010-12-13 22:55:43 <pfunked> I have a weird license question related to Bitcoin
3001 2010-12-13 22:55:58 <genjix> appamatto: http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=59
3002 2010-12-13 22:56:17 <pfunked> Bitcoin software is MIT license, correct?
3003 2010-12-13 22:56:27 fabianhjr has joined
3004 2010-12-13 22:56:37 <theymos> pfunked: Right.
3005 2010-12-13 22:56:46 <appamatto> genjix, I'll check that out
3006 2010-12-13 22:56:51 <appamatto> stream ciphers sound fun too
3007 2010-12-13 22:57:18 <pfunked> theymos: I was looking at signing up for MyBitcoin and their terms of use seems over zealous
3008 2010-12-13 22:57:22 <pfunked> 5.1 User agrees not to attempt to, tamper with, modify, reverse engineer, gain unauthorised access to, or in any way alter any software comprising the MyBitcoin System and/or the Bitcoin Network.
3009 2010-12-13 22:57:40 ze__ has joined
3010 2010-12-13 22:57:47 <pfunked> in the context of their terms of use, "Bitcoin Network means the Bitcoin peer-to-peer network and/or client software."
3011 2010-12-13 22:58:26 <pfunked> now, I know very little about Bitcoin at the moment... but surely they can't mean that if I use MyBitcoin I can't modify/alter the MIT license Bitcoin software
3012 2010-12-13 22:59:03 <ArtForz> so? I can put "user agrees to hand over first-born" in my usage terms, doesn't mean it's valid
3013 2010-12-13 22:59:20 <theymos> That is what it sounds like. The MIT license gives you some rights, and MyBitcoin takes it away. I have no idea whether this is legal, but just ignore it -- no one's going to sue you.
3014 2010-12-13 22:59:33 <ArtForz> and yeah, that's worded a bit overzealous and most likely unenforcable
3015 2010-12-13 22:59:55 <pfunked> I'm sure it's a copy/pasted terms of use without forethought... but I sent MyBitcoin a note about it anyway
3016 2010-12-13 23:00:27 <ArtForz> yea, sounds like standard boilerplate copypasta, good to let em know
3017 2010-12-13 23:00:28 <nanotube__> pfunked: send them an email and see what they say.
3018 2010-12-13 23:00:58 <pfunked> nanotube__: indeed.  Just sent one.  I'd feel comfortable if they tweaked that boilerplate section
3019 2010-12-13 23:01:05 <ArtForz> biddingpond had similarily weird terms in their TOS, forbidding users from linking auctions directly
3020 2010-12-13 23:01:15 <appamatto> Favorite PRNG, anyone?
3021 2010-12-13 23:01:23 <ArtForz> turns out they misworded that one, they wanted to forbid people from hotlinking images
3022 2010-12-13 23:01:26 <ArtForz> BBS
3023 2010-12-13 23:02:35 <ArtForz> slow as fuck, but proven strength
3024 2010-12-13 23:02:40 <zygf> appamatto: MT
3025 2010-12-13 23:02:51 <appamatto> Wow, those Blum's are crazy
3026 2010-12-13 23:02:52 <zygf> you'll find and implementation in every language
3027 2010-12-13 23:03:02 <appamatto> three of them are professors at CMU!?
3028 2010-12-13 23:03:04 <fabianhjr> Hi, I am newby and had been searching for a while. When does the transaction fee applies?
3029 2010-12-13 23:03:05 <zygf> it's like 99 bottles of beer on the wall :P
3030 2010-12-13 23:03:22 <Kiba> yay
3031 2010-12-13 23:03:27 <Kiba> I reduced my negative score
3032 2010-12-13 23:03:27 <zygf> an impl*
3033 2010-12-13 23:03:48 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: see ,,txfee page
3034 2010-12-13 23:03:49 <gribble> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=transaction_fee
3035 2010-12-13 23:03:49 <Kiba> so, did anybody tried out http://www.soulplaying.com?
3036 2010-12-13 23:04:21 <appamatto> That just seems ridiculously awesome.  Mom, Dad, and son are all CMU profs
3037 2010-12-13 23:05:52 ze__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3038 2010-12-13 23:06:02 Wil919 has joined
3039 2010-12-13 23:06:19 * Kiba feels a bit sad that nobody use his service
3040 2010-12-13 23:06:31 <fabianhjr> Also, I had gone to freebitcoins and ask for mines. Half an hour had passed an I hadn't received them. Is this common? @gribblee: thanks for the link.
3041 2010-12-13 23:06:37 Wil919 has left ()
3042 2010-12-13 23:07:10 <Kiba> where?
3043 2010-12-13 23:07:23 <theymos> Kiba: Can you actually use the EXP for anything (fictional story elements, etc.)? It sounds pointless.
3044 2010-12-13 23:07:41 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: have you finished downloading all the blocks? there are currently ,,bc,blocks
3045 2010-12-13 23:07:42 <gribble> 97408
3046 2010-12-13 23:07:57 <Kiba> theymos: the whole point is that you like number as scorekeeping
3047 2010-12-13 23:08:19 <fabianhjr> nanotube, oh, I guess not.
3048 2010-12-13 23:08:24 <Kiba> maybe I could build a character store or something, where you receive goodies..
3049 2010-12-13 23:08:27 <Kiba> I don't know.
3050 2010-12-13 23:08:34 <fabianhjr> It is starting and then stopping for a while.
3051 2010-12-13 23:08:44 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: it take a while to get all the blocks - hours sometimes.
3052 2010-12-13 23:08:51 <nanotube__> so just wait until you catch up with the blockchain.
3053 2010-12-13 23:08:55 <fabianhjr> Currently 43K
3054 2010-12-13 23:08:57 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: then your coins will show up.
3055 2010-12-13 23:09:07 <RichardG> I wonder how many average khashes I can get for a Core i5 M (forgot exact model, it was 4xx), 3 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium
3056 2010-12-13 23:09:10 pfunked has left ()
3057 2010-12-13 23:09:31 <fabianhjr> nanotube thanks! Also, how can I make a backup in case my HDD dies on me?
3058 2010-12-13 23:09:40 <nanotube__> all you need to do is back up your wallet.dat
3059 2010-12-13 23:10:11 <nanotube__> see the bitcoin wiki page about backups too.
3060 2010-12-13 23:10:15 Calypse has joined
3061 2010-12-13 23:10:17 <fabianhjr> nanotube__ thats the problem. Is it suppose to be in the same dir as the exe?
3062 2010-12-13 23:10:18 <tcatm> RichardG: Just run bitcoin on that CPU.
3063 2010-12-13 23:10:26 <theymos> Kiba: http://www.rexbox.co.uk/epicwin/ sounds good to me because it feels like you're actually doing something. I'm not interested in scorekeeping.
3064 2010-12-13 23:10:40 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: nope.
3065 2010-12-13 23:10:55 <RichardG> anyways, I found a (quite lost) build of 0.3.12 for CentOS
3066 2010-12-13 23:10:56 <Kiba> theymos: what they have that I don't?
3067 2010-12-13 23:11:00 <RichardG> http://knightmb.dyndns.org/files/bitcoin/Custom%20Linux%20Builds/x86/CentOS%205.5/bitcoind_0.3.12.tar.gz
3068 2010-12-13 23:11:32 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=backup
3069 2010-12-13 23:11:47 <Kiba> well
3070 2010-12-13 23:11:51 <theymos> Kiba: "Each completed task from your to-do list moves you forward on the quest map."; "Every location uncovers more new rare items..."
3071 2010-12-13 23:11:56 <Kiba> hmm..
3072 2010-12-13 23:11:57 <nanotube__> RichardG: that's really old... best get something fresher.
3073 2010-12-13 23:12:46 <RichardG> I can't compile it on CentOS
3074 2010-12-13 23:12:57 <Kiba> theymos: ok...
3075 2010-12-13 23:13:05 <RichardG> splashing usage of crypto which is full of patents >_<
3076 2010-12-13 23:13:14 <fabianhjr> nanotube__ thanks. :)
3077 2010-12-13 23:13:20 <Kiba> each time you comlete a quest, you earn coppper point, which can then be used to buy stuff at the store...
3078 2010-12-13 23:13:23 <nanotube__> RichardG: doesn't the precompiled binary work?
3079 2010-12-13 23:13:39 <Kiba> bleg
3080 2010-12-13 23:13:39 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: np :)
3081 2010-12-13 23:13:41 <MT`AwAy> nanotube__: the precompiled binary works for no distribution I know of
3082 2010-12-13 23:13:51 <Kiba> theymos: I will have it in my TODO list
3083 2010-12-13 23:13:55 <RichardG> nanotube__: no
3084 2010-12-13 23:14:02 <nanotube__> MT`AwAy: worked for me just fine on debian lenny and ubuntu lucid
3085 2010-12-13 23:14:04 <RichardG> requires upgraded glibc and libstdc++
3086 2010-12-13 23:14:15 <RichardG> I broke a system last time I upgraded glibc, so better not
3087 2010-12-13 23:14:27 <MT`AwAy> nanotube__: ok, here on gentoo it doesn't
3088 2010-12-13 23:14:39 <MT`AwAy> anyway compiling it is not a problem on gentoo
3089 2010-12-13 23:14:50 <MT`AwAy> dunno about centos
3090 2010-12-13 23:14:52 <nanotube__> MT`AwAy: mmm well... all i can say is that it's unfortunate. :) but yes, if you're on gentoo, compiling should be a cinch. :)
3091 2010-12-13 23:14:54 <RichardG> <RichardG> but wait
3092 2010-12-13 23:14:54 <RichardG> <RichardG> gethashespersec obtains the number of hashes or khashes?
3093 2010-12-13 23:15:03 <nanotube__> RichardG: hashes.
3094 2010-12-13 23:15:11 <nanotube__> otherwise it would be called getkhashespersec :P
3095 2010-12-13 23:15:16 <RichardG> then the VPS only does 850 >_<
3096 2010-12-13 23:15:43 <MT`AwAy> RichardG: 850khashes or hashes ?
3097 2010-12-13 23:15:48 <MT`AwAy> 850 hashes/sec seems unlikely
3098 2010-12-13 23:15:54 <MT`AwAy> (unless your vps provider really sucks)
3099 2010-12-13 23:16:03 <RichardG> khashes
3100 2010-12-13 23:16:06 <MT`AwAy> :)
3101 2010-12-13 23:16:07 <nanotube__> haha
3102 2010-12-13 23:16:16 <ArtForz> 850 hashes/sec sounds like a $1 micro
3103 2010-12-13 23:16:28 <MT`AwAy> sounds about right depending on your vps provider
3104 2010-12-13 23:16:29 <RichardG> because i was confused with this
3105 2010-12-13 23:16:31 <nanotube__> yea... i thought it would be the same as getinfo
3106 2010-12-13 23:16:37 <nanotube__> i guess not
3107 2010-12-13 23:16:38 <MT`AwAy> on my vps offers with the smallest vps I'm at 1100khash/sec
3108 2010-12-13 23:16:46 <RichardG> [richard@hostname_removed ~]$ ./bitcoind gethashespersec
3109 2010-12-13 23:16:46 <RichardG> 881650
3110 2010-12-13 23:16:46 <RichardG> [richard@hostname_removed ~]$
3111 2010-12-13 23:16:50 <ArtForz> getinfo is also hashes/sec
3112 2010-12-13 23:17:13 <ArtForz> GUI display is khash/s
3113 2010-12-13 23:17:30 <nanotube__> RichardG: so that's hashes, not khashes
3114 2010-12-13 23:17:56 <nanotube__> ArtForz: yea, but he was asking about gethashespersec... and then said it only shows 850...
3115 2010-12-13 23:18:10 <RichardG> I still wonder about the i5... dont have access to it right now
3116 2010-12-13 23:18:17 <ArtForz> i5 should get decent speed
3117 2010-12-13 23:18:24 <RichardG> an i5 M
3118 2010-12-13 23:18:26 <RichardG> not desktop i5
3119 2010-12-13 23:18:38 <ArtForz> same arch, lower clock
3120 2010-12-13 23:19:07 <RichardG> I got 4 khashes on the display
3121 2010-12-13 23:19:19 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3122 2010-12-13 23:19:21 <RichardG> probably because the blocks counter almost halted at 92000-odd blocks?
3123 2010-12-13 23:19:42 <ArtForz> sounds like block DL stalled ,,bc,blocks
3124 2010-12-13 23:19:43 <gribble> 97408
3125 2010-12-13 23:19:52 <nanotube__> er... it should be showing 0 hashes then, if your blocks aren't up to the top of the chain...
3126 2010-12-13 23:20:17 <ArtForz> when block DL stalls > 74k blocks it sometimes starts hashing FNAR
3127 2010-12-13 23:20:25 <theymos> Generation starts at the latest checkpoint.
3128 2010-12-13 23:20:42 <MT`AwAy> generation starts when the bitcoin client thinks he got the latest blocks
3129 2010-12-13 23:20:46 <ArtForz> yep
3130 2010-12-13 23:20:55 <MT`AwAy> if you don't have enough peers it might be wrong
3131 2010-12-13 23:20:58 <ArtForz> yep
3132 2010-12-13 23:21:06 <MT`AwAy> (ie only one peer which itself isn't complete)
3133 2010-12-13 23:21:26 <MT`AwAy> anyway when the bitcoin client sees other peers and connect to them, things will be better
3134 2010-12-13 23:21:52 <nanotube__> ArtForz: ah...
3135 2010-12-13 23:21:53 achristianson has joined
3136 2010-12-13 23:23:07 <genjix> anyone know any schemes which could be used as a network of trust for quickly making accurate guesses about bitcoin transactions before they're confirmed?
3137 2010-12-13 23:23:51 <genjix> like shunning untrustworthy nodes and reporting them to everyone
3138 2010-12-13 23:24:42 <theymos> Bitcoin could just listen for conflicting transactions. If there are none in like 30 seconds, no double-spends should get in the chain.
3139 2010-12-13 23:25:48 <nanotube__> unless the network is fragmented... \
3140 2010-12-13 23:26:13 <bonsaikitten> genjix: how would you handle malicious nodes claiming everyone else is untrustworthy?
3141 2010-12-13 23:26:23 <bonsaikitten> genjix: trust mechanisms are surprisingly hard :)
3142 2010-12-13 23:26:45 <fabianhjr> Can anyone help me get into Pooled Mining - GPU? I am trying to join http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/bitcoin-pool/ however, it appears it cannot establish a connection(remote-mineropencl.exe)
3143 2010-12-13 23:26:56 <fabianhjr> Do I have to open my ports?
3144 2010-12-13 23:27:03 <theymos> The pool's down.
3145 2010-12-13 23:27:14 <genjix> bonsaikitten: tit-for-tat?
3146 2010-12-13 23:27:21 <genjix> they report many people
3147 2010-12-13 23:27:33 <genjix> so their word means less
3148 2010-12-13 23:27:37 <genjix> just like irl
3149 2010-12-13 23:27:39 <fabianhjr> theymos: oh, so that might be the problem. :P Well, thanks for confirming.
3150 2010-12-13 23:28:01 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: just wait until evening, the guy who runs the pool is sure to catch on and figure out what's up.
3151 2010-12-13 23:28:04 Calypse has left ()
3152 2010-12-13 23:28:13 <Dashkal> ~.
3153 2010-12-13 23:28:46 <bonsaikitten> genjix: sybil attack. won't work
3154 2010-12-13 23:28:53 <genjix> :/
3155 2010-12-13 23:29:09 <genjix> real downside of bitcoins is how long transactions take to confirm
3156 2010-12-13 23:29:10 <fabianhjr> nanotube, I think I will just see how I do on my own meanwhile.
3157 2010-12-13 23:29:25 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3158 2010-12-13 23:29:48 <genjix> i was hoping for some way to quickly statistically put a confidence on a transaction being followed through
3159 2010-12-13 23:30:44 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3160 2010-12-13 23:31:03 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: sure why not. :) you can get the approximate average time it'll take you to gen a block using the bc,calc command.
3161 2010-12-13 23:31:08 <nanotube__> ;;bc,calc 1000
3162 2010-12-13 23:31:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 year, 34 weeks, 6 days, 1 hour, 14 minutes, and 48 seconds
3163 2010-12-13 23:31:44 <fabianhjr> nanotube via the command line? I am confused now. :S
3164 2010-12-13 23:31:51 <ArtForz> if you want certainity, waiting for a TX to get into a block is pretty much the only option
3165 2010-12-13 23:31:56 darrob has joined
3166 2010-12-13 23:32:11 <bonsaikitten> genjix: you want a more centralized system ;)
3167 2010-12-13 23:32:23 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: no, here on irc.
3168 2010-12-13 23:32:26 <nanotube__> like i just did
3169 2010-12-13 23:32:32 <fabianhjr> Oh!
3170 2010-12-13 23:32:34 <ArtForz> for small values, just make sure that that TX is known to a lot of nodes
3171 2010-12-13 23:33:00 <fabianhjr> nanotube does the bitcoin client offers a benchmarking utility and does it support OpenCL?
3172 2010-12-13 23:33:39 genjix has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3173 2010-12-13 23:33:45 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: stock client shows you only how many hashes per second you're doing. opencl is not supported in stock client - but there are miners posted on the forum
3174 2010-12-13 23:33:47 <fabianhjr> ait, found the manual.
3175 2010-12-13 23:37:14 altamic has joined
3176 2010-12-13 23:37:26 genjix has joined
3177 2010-12-13 23:37:26 genjix has quit (Changing host)
3178 2010-12-13 23:37:26 genjix has joined
3179 2010-12-13 23:39:28 lfm has joined
3180 2010-12-13 23:42:26 <fabianhjr> ;;bc,calc 1000000000
3181 2010-12-13 23:42:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 52 seconds
3182 2010-12-13 23:42:58 <Kiba> ArtForz: so, you're going to spend 200,000 on a mining rig?
3183 2010-12-13 23:43:01 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: haha don't tell me you are doing that much khps :P
3184 2010-12-13 23:43:15 <fabianhjr> naw, can't even get it to work. :P
3185 2010-12-13 23:43:56 <nanotube__> heh
3186 2010-12-13 23:44:03 <fabianhjr> Though, I am not sure what a 5870 can do if I don't get a GPU miner. :P
3187 2010-12-13 23:44:20 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: iirc that card can do 300 mhps or so
3188 2010-12-13 23:44:45 noagendamarket has joined
3189 2010-12-13 23:45:06 <fabianhjr> ;;bc,calc 300000
3190 2010-12-13 23:45:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 0 hours, 43 minutes, and 26 seconds
3191 2010-12-13 23:45:17 <fabianhjr> Wow, that is still impressive. 0_o
3192 2010-12-13 23:45:39 <fabianhjr> nvm, didn't see the 2 days. :P
3193 2010-12-13 23:45:46 <ArtForz> Kiba: probably
3194 2010-12-13 23:46:53 <Kiba> does that mean GPU mining become unviable forever?
3195 2010-12-13 23:47:24 <theymos> ArtForz: Did you say that would give you 65% of the network's CPU?
3196 2010-12-13 23:47:47 <ArtForz> yup
3197 2010-12-13 23:48:08 <Kiba> ArtForz: that...some serious investment
3198 2010-12-13 23:48:11 <ArtForz> about 200Gh/s at ~10kW power usage
3199 2010-12-13 23:48:23 fabianhjr_ has joined
3200 2010-12-13 23:48:29 <noagendamarket> are you going to buy the local power station as well?
3201 2010-12-13 23:48:30 <fabianhjr_> Wired. 0_o
3202 2010-12-13 23:48:37 <Kiba> what is typical for 10 kW?
3203 2010-12-13 23:48:49 akem has joined
3204 2010-12-13 23:49:06 <fabianhjr_> ;;bc,help
3205 2010-12-13 23:49:07 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
3206 2010-12-13 23:49:10 <ArtForz> well.. with 5970s thats about 18Gh/s
3207 2010-12-13 23:49:52 <appamatto> ;;bc,stats
3208 2010-12-13 23:49:53 <fabianhjr_> ArtForz: no way. If the 5870 is 300 mh/s then the 5970 should be about 500 mh/s 0_o
3209 2010-12-13 23:49:54 <Kiba> over what time period?
3210 2010-12-13 23:49:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97408 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1375 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 15 hours, 22 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13539.65921521
3211 2010-12-13 23:50:00 <ArtForz> so?
3212 2010-12-13 23:50:07 <ArtForz> 5970 is about 535Mh/s stock
3213 2010-12-13 23:50:30 <fabianhjr_> 18Gh/s ? How did you got to that? 0_o
3214 2010-12-13 23:50:36 <ArtForz> 300W per 5970
3215 2010-12-13 23:50:52 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3216 2010-12-13 23:51:04 <ArtForz> 10kW -> 33 5970s, at 535Mh/s a pop thats 17.65 Gh/s
3217 2010-12-13 23:51:05 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
3218 2010-12-13 23:51:22 <fabianhjr> ArtForz: you got 33 5970s? 0_o
3219 2010-12-13 23:51:26 <ArtForz> no, I only have 24
3220 2010-12-13 23:51:57 <theymos> Are you going to demand extra fees? With 65% of the network, you'd be able to force everyone to pay at least 0.01.
3221 2010-12-13 23:52:02 <ArtForz> I was talking about machines with same power draw as my planned $200k miner
3222 2010-12-13 23:53:03 <ArtForz> for the same money cou could buy 300 5970s, which would do about 160Gh/s and need 90kW
3223 2010-12-13 23:53:29 <theymos> If you charged 0.01 per tx, lots of people would pay and it would be more profitable than continuing to charge nothing.
3224 2010-12-13 23:53:29 noagendamarket_ has joined
3225 2010-12-13 23:53:43 <fabianhjr> ;;bc,stats
3226 2010-12-13 23:53:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97408 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 1375 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 15 hours, 22 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13539.65921521
3227 2010-12-13 23:53:49 Phoebus has joined
3228 2010-12-13 23:53:56 <ArtForz> erm, with a mjority of the network I could simply hog generation
3229 2010-12-13 23:54:07 <ArtForz> = 7200btc/day
3230 2010-12-13 23:54:21 <appamatto> ArtForz, do any of your plans entail hijacking the network?
3231 2010-12-13 23:54:26 <ArtForz> nope
3232 2010-12-13 23:54:29 <appamatto> aww
3233 2010-12-13 23:54:37 <fabianhjr> ArtForz: we the peers must keep up with you. Mind sending some 5970s over to Mexico?
3234 2010-12-13 23:54:42 <Kiba> what if your machine got confiscated by the government and used to hijack the network?
3235 2010-12-13 23:54:51 <ArtForz> bad luck I guess
3236 2010-12-13 23:54:53 <da2ce7> lol with an majority, you could exclude anyone who generates bolcks other than yourself!
3237 2010-12-13 23:54:57 <ArtForz> yep
3238 2010-12-13 23:54:59 <fabianhjr> Kiba got a point. Donate the 5970s now. >:D
3239 2010-12-13 23:55:13 <Kiba> ArtForz can sell it...
3240 2010-12-13 23:55:17 <theymos> If you did that you would make even more money from generations.
3241 2010-12-13 23:55:20 <ArtForz> why do you think I've suddenly stopped adding GPUs when I was ~33% of total hashrate?
3242 2010-12-13 23:55:24 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3243 2010-12-13 23:55:28 noagendamarket_ is now known as noagendamarket
3244 2010-12-13 23:55:40 <zygf> ArtForz: so... difficulty is about to rise threefold? :P
3245 2010-12-13 23:55:43 <genjix> noagendamarket: will you trade me for paypal?
3246 2010-12-13 23:55:47 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
3247 2010-12-13 23:55:48 noagendamarket has joined
3248 2010-12-13 23:55:53 <genjix> noagendamarket: will you trade me for paypal?
3249 2010-12-13 23:56:02 <nanotube__> ArtForz: are you really about to invest in 200ghps of processing power?
3250 2010-12-13 23:56:06 <fabianhjr> Damn, still missing ~5K blocks
3251 2010-12-13 23:56:08 <noagendamarket> genjix i dont have any coins
3252 2010-12-13 23:56:15 <genjix> damn :p
3253 2010-12-13 23:56:23 <genjix> who does?
3254 2010-12-13 23:56:28 <Kiba> ArtForz: over what time period is your investment going to be active?
3255 2010-12-13 23:56:30 <Kiba> 3 months?
3256 2010-12-13 23:56:31 <Kiba> 6 months?
3257 2010-12-13 23:56:32 <noagendamarket> looks like artforz will have them all shortly lol
3258 2010-12-13 23:56:38 <Phoebus> lol
3259 2010-12-13 23:56:39 <fabianhjr> genjix: freebitcoins I think will give you 0.05 bc for free!
3260 2010-12-13 23:56:59 <nanotube__> genjix: sup i recall you were asking about buying some coin?
3261 2010-12-13 23:57:00 <Kiba> will the difficulty be gradual?
3262 2010-12-13 23:57:01 <ArtForz> not exactly about to
3263 2010-12-13 23:57:04 <Kiba> or will it spike?
3264 2010-12-13 23:57:06 <genjix> anyone willing to sell me $500 worth (or less) for £ or PokerStars?
3265 2010-12-13 23:57:24 <genjix> nanotube__: yeah... paypal is only option I think possible here :(
3266 2010-12-13 23:57:38 <Kiba> what about xip thingy?
3267 2010-12-13 23:57:42 <ArtForz> I'm still busy modifying my design
3268 2010-12-13 23:57:43 <Kiba> still waiting for my free 3 bitcoin
3269 2010-12-13 23:57:44 <genjix> how much would you be willing to do?
3270 2010-12-13 23:57:58 <ArtForz> turns out I have a pretty huge bottleneck in my round function
3271 2010-12-13 23:57:59 <fabianhjr> How are BC going to be capped at 21Million? Computational complexity?
3272 2010-12-13 23:57:59 <nanotube__> genjix: depends on price...
3273 2010-12-13 23:58:10 <genjix> 2272 @0.2 for $500
3274 2010-12-13 23:58:10 <edcba> fabianhjr: maths :)
3275 2010-12-13 23:58:11 <Kiba> fabianhjr: just an integer
3276 2010-12-13 23:58:15 <donpdonp> Kiba: i'll sent you 0.05 coin if you want :)
3277 2010-12-13 23:58:25 <edcba> evry 2 years rewards are divided by 2
3278 2010-12-13 23:58:26 <ArtForz> 5 chained 32 bit adders without a register in sight
3279 2010-12-13 23:58:27 <genjix> 0.22
3280 2010-12-13 23:58:31 <Kiba> I already have plenty of bitcoin 200 BTC
3281 2010-12-13 23:58:35 <nanotube__> genjix: that's below mtgox rate... no way.
3282 2010-12-13 23:58:38 <fabianhjr> So, could the cap be changed at anytime?
3283 2010-12-13 23:58:40 <ArtForz> thats mainly whats limiting me to 200MHz clock
3284 2010-12-13 23:58:42 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
3285 2010-12-13 23:58:43 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.23,"low":0.21,"vol":6416,"buy":0.212,"sell":0.229,"last":0.2299}}
3286 2010-12-13 23:58:44 <donpdonp> Kiba: ha. i have like 10btc
3287 2010-12-13 23:58:56 <fabianhjr> Kiba: 100 more and you can afford a tshirt. :P
3288 2010-12-13 23:58:58 <Kiba> half of my saving come from my art :D
3289 2010-12-13 23:59:07 <da2ce7> lol
3290 2010-12-13 23:59:09 <nanotube__> fabianhjr: it's coded in the clients - so cap would only change if the majority of clients changed.
3291 2010-12-13 23:59:14 <genjix> nanotube__: ah ok then 0.26?
3292 2010-12-13 23:59:15 <da2ce7> you mean two donations.
3293 2010-12-13 23:59:24 <Kiba> yeah, whatever
3294 2010-12-13 23:59:34 <ArtForz> but submitting a design for speed/size/power simulation isn't exactly cheap, so I want to be sure to have all kinks worked out
3295 2010-12-13 23:59:38 <Dashkal> If a majority of the clients changed... so Art could control the total supply? :P
3296 2010-12-13 23:59:39 <fabianhjr> This is a real cool project btw. :P
3297 2010-12-13 23:59:40 <Kiba> anyway, anybody want to bid on character space in my next art peice with Haruka Nakamoto?