1 2010-12-16 00:00:10 <fabianhjr> tcatm: I am actually talking about a standalone version.
2 2010-12-16 00:00:34 <fabianhjr> genjix: I am pulling your leg > : D
3 2010-12-16 00:00:42 <tcatm> fabianhjr: How would that work?
4 2010-12-16 00:02:17 <fabianhjr> tcam you take theuser input during a simple game logging each keystroke timing/value and use it to seed rand(). Then you generate 10-100K hashes with that.(Dunno when srand()|rand() should be reseeded)
5 2010-12-16 00:02:29 <fabianhjr> Sorry tcatm
6 2010-12-16 00:03:03 <tcatm> rand() is not used for hashing ;)
7 2010-12-16 00:03:22 <fabianhjr> No, you generate a random number and hash that.
8 2010-12-16 00:04:06 <tcatm> echo echo -n $RANDOM|sha256sum
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10 2010-12-16 00:04:40 <fabianhjr_> Damn, I hate myISP. -_-
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26 2010-12-16 00:31:55 <mizerydearia> I am creating a new kind of market allowing exchanging bitcoins for pizza. http://bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2305
27 2010-12-16 00:32:00 <kiba> yes, we know :D
28 2010-12-16 00:32:04 <mizerydearia> you know ^_^
29 2010-12-16 00:32:32 <mizerydearia> And #bc-news knows
30 2010-12-16 00:33:05 <doublec> #bc-news knows all
31 2010-12-16 00:33:33 <kiba> mizerydearia: been a long time ya?
32 2010-12-16 00:33:55 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
33 2010-12-16 00:34:34 <mizerydearia> kiba, mm, 42?
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41 2010-12-16 01:02:27 <EvanR> mizerydearia: pizza is simple. what about beer?
42 2010-12-16 01:03:08 <mizerydearia> pizza is more deliverable and orderable (e.g. phone orders, web-based orders) than beer.
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50 2010-12-16 01:14:49 <EvanR> mizerydearia: exactly
51 2010-12-16 01:14:56 <EvanR> but often i want to buy someone a beer
52 2010-12-16 01:15:01 <EvanR> make it happen
53 2010-12-16 01:15:03 <mizerydearia> %_%
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58 2010-12-16 01:19:04 <EvanR> if you send to an ip address, what address does it use?
59 2010-12-16 01:20:09 <tcatm> Don't use send to IP :)
60 2010-12-16 01:20:38 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
61 2010-12-16 01:20:44 <tcatm> The sender requests a new address from the receiver and then sends to that address.
62 2010-12-16 01:24:34 Joshoph has joined
63 2010-12-16 01:28:13 <EvanR> lol bitcoin randomizer
64 2010-12-16 01:28:20 <EvanR> this is a genuine pyramid scheme?
65 2010-12-16 01:29:01 <kiba> EvanR: is there a beer delievery service?
66 2010-12-16 01:29:09 <kiba> plus
67 2010-12-16 01:29:18 <kiba> beer is restricted due to age requirement
68 2010-12-16 01:29:21 <kiba> pizza is not a drug
69 2010-12-16 01:29:44 <kiba> mizerydearia: will we receive dailly update of your progress?
70 2010-12-16 01:30:45 <EvanR> im old enough to buy beer
71 2010-12-16 01:31:03 * LobsterMan slaps mtgox around with a heavy metal pole
72 2010-12-16 01:31:08 <LobsterMan> i can't sell on mtgox atm :\
73 2010-12-16 01:31:18 <kiba> I don't understand
74 2010-12-16 01:31:25 <kiba> why I need to be 21 in order to buy beer
75 2010-12-16 01:32:20 <judge_mental> beer delivery is a great idea
76 2010-12-16 01:33:01 <midnightmagic> i don't see anything anywhere that says mtgox takes a cut of the trades that happen in its market.. is there a percentage they skim or am I right, and there is no surcharge?
77 2010-12-16 01:33:10 <kiba> judge_mental: as long as the driver is not drunk
78 2010-12-16 01:33:14 <EvanR> lol
79 2010-12-16 01:33:43 <EvanR> midnightmagic: theyll charge you for sending you USD
80 2010-12-16 01:33:59 <EvanR> at least
81 2010-12-16 01:34:01 <midnightmagic> that's on the way out to LR, right?
82 2010-12-16 01:34:13 <kiba> midnightmagic: how does it work?
83 2010-12-16 01:34:19 <midnightmagic> ah there it is.. You will be charged 1% to withdraw by Liberty Reserve.
84 2010-12-16 01:34:21 <kiba> errr
85 2010-12-16 01:34:26 <kiba> mizerydearia: how does it work?
86 2010-12-16 01:34:57 <midnightmagic> Ah, good then: as long as the BTC/LR is trapped in that site, it looks like there's no percentage. That is SO VERY COOL.
87 2010-12-16 01:34:58 <kiba> so people get to be a middleman?
88 2010-12-16 01:35:31 <kiba> midnightmagic: I wasn't aware of any fees to withdraw bitcoin
89 2010-12-16 01:36:00 <midnightmagic> it also means a reconversion to BTC (as in an arbitrage resale) costs nothing. I really like that.
90 2010-12-16 01:36:32 LobsterMan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
91 2010-12-16 01:38:29 <mizerydearia> kiba, Pizza4BTC works more like Bitcoin Market and less like Mt. Gox.
92 2010-12-16 01:40:05 Joshoph has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
93 2010-12-16 01:40:10 <mizerydearia> Like BCM, You can provide bitcoins to fund your account and aSk (sell) bitcoins for a pizza orders.
94 2010-12-16 01:41:03 <kiba> so I need some capital to get started
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98 2010-12-16 01:41:08 <lfm> mizerydearia: you deliver to calgary?
99 2010-12-16 01:41:12 <mizerydearia> If someone Buys pizza for you and you receive it (or pick it up), then you can confirm through the site that you received the pizza and then payment will be sent to the user that bought the pizza for you.
100 2010-12-16 01:41:38 <mizerydearia> lfm: I don't, but if there are pizza restaurants in calgary, then the user requesting a pizza can place an order for pizzas at a particular or any restaurant in calgary.
101 2010-12-16 01:41:42 <genjix> mizerydearia: selling pizza for btc?
102 2010-12-16 01:42:07 <genjix> damn... you're in usa.
103 2010-12-16 01:42:26 <mizerydearia> The site will satisfy a worldwide market
104 2010-12-16 01:42:48 <kiba> and it will be based on reputation, eh
105 2010-12-16 01:43:36 <genjix> by converting to local currency and having a fee taken at every conversion point?
106 2010-12-16 01:43:48 <mizerydearia> Does bitcoin market provide any kind of reputation in regards to who you are transacting with?
107 2010-12-16 01:44:00 <mizerydearia> I will integrate a kind of reputation system within the site.
108 2010-12-16 01:44:49 <EvanR> bitcoin wont even reliably identify who you are dealing with
109 2010-12-16 01:45:16 <kiba> EvanR: you know me!
110 2010-12-16 01:45:23 <kiba> I have a reputation to protect
111 2010-12-16 01:45:29 <kiba> and I like bitcoins more than I like dollars
112 2010-12-16 01:45:41 <EvanR> cool
113 2010-12-16 01:45:43 <kiba> mizerydearia: how will you make money
114 2010-12-16 01:46:09 <tcatm> He'll make pizza :D
115 2010-12-16 01:46:30 <mizerydearia> At the moment I am uncertain, however, you are welcome to donate.
116 2010-12-16 01:46:42 <EvanR> this thread is somehow 'citing' total bitcoin processing power in flops
117 2010-12-16 01:46:57 <EvanR> as in floating point. how is any of this floating point math?
118 2010-12-16 01:47:07 <EvanR> whats the equivalent integer ops ;)
119 2010-12-16 01:47:10 sneak has quit (Quit: leaving)
120 2010-12-16 01:47:15 <tcatm> Google analytics is crazy. It's telling my that i have 5625% more visits.
121 2010-12-16 01:47:17 <mizerydearia> I have contemplated perhaps I could ask for 1btc (or any other amount) per pizza requested. An amount small enough to not have an impact on whether or not someone orders a pizza using the site.
122 2010-12-16 01:47:19 sneak has joined
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124 2010-12-16 01:47:52 <EvanR> mizerydearia: oh. so its like a regular business with bitcoins slipped in edge wise?
125 2010-12-16 01:48:16 <mizerydearia> EvanR, I suppose you could consider it as that.
126 2010-12-16 01:48:17 <EvanR> 1 is way less than the cost of the pizza and delivery
127 2010-12-16 01:48:55 davex__ has joined
128 2010-12-16 01:49:00 <mizerydearia> e.g. instead of offering 10,000 bitcoins ( http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=137.0 ) it would be 10,001 bitcoins.
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131 2010-12-16 01:51:47 <genjix> 10000 btc = $40 back then
132 2010-12-16 01:51:51 <genjix> damn
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134 2010-12-16 01:53:01 <tcatm> genjix: Don't worry, price will mostly only rise.
135 2010-12-16 01:53:09 <genjix> "I can't generate thousands of coins a day anymore"
136 2010-12-16 01:53:21 <midnightmagic> =]
137 2010-12-16 01:53:27 <genjix> laszlo generating $100's everyday
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143 2010-12-16 01:59:24 <EvanR> i wonder if i could put together a bitcoin FPGA to beat the 5970
144 2010-12-16 01:59:42 <tcatm> EvanR: Nope.
145 2010-12-16 02:00:01 lolcat has joined
146 2010-12-16 02:00:03 <lolcat> Hello
147 2010-12-16 02:00:19 <EvanR> what if i use the university linux cluster
148 2010-12-16 02:00:22 <tcatm> GPUs will be the cheapest things for mining for a quite long time.
149 2010-12-16 02:00:39 <tcatm> EvanR: Will be slower than a few GPUs.
150 2010-12-16 02:00:42 <lolcat> How about for a quite short time?
151 2010-12-16 02:00:47 <EvanR> control z their general relativity for a while
152 2010-12-16 02:00:51 <tcatm> And consume much more power!
153 2010-12-16 02:01:26 <lolcat> A fair cpu can make what, 6000khashes?
154 2010-12-16 02:01:36 <EvanR> i was doing 500k
155 2010-12-16 02:01:42 <EvanR> but its a rather old laptop
156 2010-12-16 02:01:47 <tcatm> Upto 16Mhash/s is possible with CPUs.
157 2010-12-16 02:01:53 <lolcat> I do 1600 on my laptop
158 2010-12-16 02:02:16 <tcatm> Maybe 20 if you overclock.
159 2010-12-16 02:03:04 <lolcat> How much with the 5850?
160 2010-12-16 02:03:15 * EvanR climbs to higher altitude so the gpu botnet is slowed by gravitational time dilation
161 2010-12-16 02:03:32 <tcatm> lolcat: 316
162 2010-12-16 02:03:46 <lolcat> There is a GPU botnet? Oo
163 2010-12-16 02:04:21 <lolcat> tcatm: If he have a fair linux cluster he will do well... 1000*16mhash is still something
164 2010-12-16 02:04:40 <lolcat> ;;calc; 16000000khash
165 2010-12-16 02:04:40 <gribble> Error: "calc;" is not a valid command.
166 2010-12-16 02:04:46 <lolcat> ;;calc 16000000khash
167 2010-12-16 02:04:46 <gribble> Error: The command "calc" is available in the Google and Math plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "calc".
168 2010-12-16 02:04:56 <lolcat> ;;calc , 16000000khash
169 2010-12-16 02:04:56 <gribble> Error: The command "calc" is available in the Google and Math plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "calc".
170 2010-12-16 02:04:59 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,calc 16000000
171 2010-12-16 02:05:00 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 16000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 54 minutes and 48 seconds
172 2010-12-16 02:05:05 <lolcat> Ok, bots are not my thing...
173 2010-12-16 02:05:56 <tcatm> lolcat: 29x HD 5970 would get you the same hash rate and consume 1/16 power
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175 2010-12-16 02:06:42 <lolcat> tcatm: Still, if I could use a university cluster for free, it'd be free money
176 2010-12-16 02:06:52 <tcatm> That's true.
177 2010-12-16 02:07:12 <tcatm> But unlikely ;)
178 2010-12-16 02:07:22 <da2ce7> the bitcoiners at going to become a big buying segment of the high-end GPU market. :D
179 2010-12-16 02:07:27 <lolcat> Not sure what kind of access EvanR has though, but it could be possible.
180 2010-12-16 02:07:53 <midnightmagic> tcatm: it sucks that GPU initial purchase is so cheap (and advancement in GPU development so fast) that stacks and stacks of fpga are more expensive..
181 2010-12-16 02:08:02 <EvanR> its about doing hashes
182 2010-12-16 02:08:03 <mizerydearia> kiba: Regarding progress of the site development, come to #pizza4btc - Also come if you are interested in contributing towards populating the site with pizza-related informations around the world that will be used to help make the site more interactive.
183 2010-12-16 02:08:08 <midnightmagic> lolcat: not if you get caught. :)
184 2010-12-16 02:08:18 <EvanR> do rather than writing a shader for a gpu, use an fpga with circuitry for the hash
185 2010-12-16 02:08:50 <tcatm> midnightmagic: Yep. Powerful FPGAs easily cost >$1000
186 2010-12-16 02:08:51 <midnightmagic> no, that's just it. fpga is slower than 5970 if you spend the same money for a 5970, on fpga.
187 2010-12-16 02:09:02 <EvanR> its a one time cost though
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189 2010-12-16 02:09:15 <da2ce7> I wonder howmany years it will be untill the hashrate is 1 Billion times faster than it is now?
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191 2010-12-16 02:09:26 <midnightmagic> tcatm: there's an economy of scale aspect that Art pointed out last night that had to do with less expensive fpga, but more of them (at 1/10th the cost, but only 1/2 the performance, for rhetorical example)
192 2010-12-16 02:09:30 <da2ce7> I bey arround 20years.
193 2010-12-16 02:09:45 <da2ce7> *bet
194 2010-12-16 02:09:58 <midnightmagic> EvanR: no, the arrays will become obsolete in terms of power consumption per performance unit too fast versus just buying the latest gpus.
195 2010-12-16 02:10:01 <lolcat> midnightmagic: I was offered to utilize a university supercomputer for rainbow hashing. But Im not sure if the guy that offered it was allowed to do so. But there wouldnt be a econmic problem in Norway, youd just get kicked out of the university.
196 2010-12-16 02:10:31 Sapians has joined
197 2010-12-16 02:10:37 <midnightmagic> lolcat: and if they find out that you generated a few $10k's on it, they might sue you civilly to recover the money you "made" with university equipment.
198 2010-12-16 02:11:06 <lolcat> I sincerly doubt it, suing people in Norway is rare and difficult.
199 2010-12-16 02:11:21 <lolcat> anyways
200 2010-12-16 02:11:37 <lolcat> I just buy my bitcoins, when mtgox get bank wire itd be ez to obtain them
201 2010-12-16 02:11:44 <midnightmagic> so.. if I used your computer to steal your money you couldn't do anything about it civilly?
202 2010-12-16 02:12:02 <midnightmagic> what a strange place.. wait, is that the same place where people are allowed to trespass and pick your mushrooms?
203 2010-12-16 02:12:23 <tcatm> midnightmagic: It's actually a nice place ;)
204 2010-12-16 02:12:44 <midnightmagic> strange is not mutually exclusive of nice..! I feel very sure I would love it there.
205 2010-12-16 02:12:56 twobitcoins has quit (Quit: Leaving)
206 2010-12-16 02:13:06 <midnightmagic> Plus every Norwegian I meet I instantly like..
207 2010-12-16 02:13:12 <midnightmagic> as though we're distantly related.. somehow..
208 2010-12-16 02:13:47 <lolcat> midnightmagic: YEs, if I own land. And you shoot a moose there, I only would get haf. And they can pick berries and camp on your property if it is so and so far away from your house.
209 2010-12-16 02:14:00 <midnightmagic> wow..!
210 2010-12-16 02:14:15 <midnightmagic> i guess that's of necessity based on scarcity..
211 2010-12-16 02:14:21 <lolcat> If I buy a forest, Im not allowed to put a fence around it
212 2010-12-16 02:14:48 <midnightmagic> here in canada it is possible to own massive tracts of land, put a fence around it, and all the government can do is make it so people can get from place to place with easements for roads..
213 2010-12-16 02:15:09 <lolcat> midnightmagic: Scarcity of land? Don't think so. Scarcity of moose? Not really. Scarcity of berries? Not that either, we have plenty of goverment owned places to pick berries.
214 2010-12-16 02:16:12 <EvanR> not much is off topic herelol
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216 2010-12-16 02:16:33 <midnightmagic> the problem being of course that people are rude enough here to destroy the land more than be responsible with it, and the "use' of the land interferes with my potential use of the land.
217 2010-12-16 02:17:11 <lolcat> We are quite heavily restricted in what we are allowed to build and how.
218 2010-12-16 02:17:12 <midnightmagic> and a government-sanctioned right to squat on my land would weaken my ability to tend/exploit/use it.
219 2010-12-16 02:17:41 <midnightmagic> municipalities restrict land-use here (so I can't just dig a big ugly hole in the middle of town) but out in the boonies, there are no land-use restricting via zoming bylaws.
220 2010-12-16 02:18:05 <lolcat> I know, but nature in itself is important. And I somewhat agree with that, everyone should be allowed to use forests, rivers and lakes.
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222 2010-12-16 02:18:27 <lolcat> midnightmagic: Municipalities here also regulate construction, deconstruction and so on
223 2010-12-16 02:18:28 <midnightmagic> plus I think they're heading off personal injury lawsuits: here, if a camper accidentally cuts hsi arm off because a tree falls on him, he could conceivably sue me for his own stupidity.
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227 2010-12-16 02:19:04 <midnightmagic> there are so many here (in BC, 93% or so of land is crown-owned) that private landownership can't really interfere with public use of public land.
228 2010-12-16 02:20:17 <midnightmagic> we still have animals traps here in some places.. traplines and hunting grounds and so forth. it's just too much of an injurious mess for uncivilized frontiersmen to be allowed to bring guns onto private property and hunt (and potentially shoot your kids or you)
229 2010-12-16 02:20:36 <midnightmagic> "I thought it was a deer!"
230 2010-12-16 02:20:54 <kiba> hunting on your own property
231 2010-12-16 02:22:29 <lolcat> midnightmagic: Here, if I rape you, poisoun your familiy, burn donw your house and make you all crippled, youd be lucky to get a years sallary from me. That is ofcourse if it is done with intent, I migth get a jail sentence, but you wont get any sizable amount of money.
232 2010-12-16 02:22:35 <midnightmagic> here also, trees and forests can be created and within the lifespan of a single person, grow into a full ecosystem. it strikes me that the efforts of private individuals might then be expropriated by a government because forests by their nature belong to the public domain.
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234 2010-12-16 02:23:10 <midnightmagic> good christ. the public outcry from that would drown out such weak laws in a firestorm of angry protest..! :)
235 2010-12-16 02:23:33 <midnightmagic> i'm pretty sure the legislature would be bombed..
236 2010-12-16 02:23:55 <midnightmagic> but in a way, that does kind of empower the individual to more aggressively defend him/herself, right?
237 2010-12-16 02:24:08 <lolcat> ...
238 2010-12-16 02:24:18 <midnightmagic> and that, I agree with.
239 2010-12-16 02:24:40 <lolcat> We have low sentences, we have jails that are basicly 3 star hotells, you even get to leave jail to spend time with your kids or take an education...
240 2010-12-16 02:24:52 <lolcat> still, the murder rates, and other violent crimes is pretty low
241 2010-12-16 02:25:01 <EvanR> is that the country that lets you have sex with your girlfriend in jail
242 2010-12-16 02:25:14 <midnightmagic> jail time, I think should be purely about the restriction of freedoms, not physical punishment. people who think that physical punishment should be meted out as part of a prison sentence are retarded.
243 2010-12-16 02:25:19 <EvanR> you even get a nice suite
244 2010-12-16 02:25:59 <lolcat> No idea, havent tried jail yet
245 2010-12-16 02:26:03 <midnightmagic> educating prisoners I think is an incredibly vital part of rahbilitiating them back into society. you don't want to send them to prison just to make them hardened criminals with new contacts made in jail.
246 2010-12-16 02:26:04 <lolcat> Migth in january though
247 2010-12-16 02:26:29 <midnightmagic> so why can't we copy stuff freely in Norway, dude?!
248 2010-12-16 02:26:36 <midnightmagic> gotta go, dinner
249 2010-12-16 02:26:51 * EvanR copies midnightmagic's bitcoins freely
250 2010-12-16 02:26:58 <lolcat> midnightmagic: Nobody, not one have been punished for downloading
251 2010-12-16 02:27:07 <lolcat> Sharing is what is illegal here
252 2010-12-16 02:27:34 onug has joined
253 2010-12-16 02:27:36 <lolcat> I need to be able to setup a bitcoin buisness
254 2010-12-16 02:29:11 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
255 2010-12-16 02:29:46 <EvanR> are you not able?
256 2010-12-16 02:30:13 <Sapians> what's stopping you?
257 2010-12-16 02:31:43 <lolcat> Low intelligence and a fault web-server-laptop
258 2010-12-16 02:32:16 <lolcat> I guess I could, if I got an idea.
259 2010-12-16 02:32:19 <Sapians> low intelligence or an unwillingness to learn a new skill (in this case, web programming)
260 2010-12-16 02:32:43 <lolcat> I get my way around php, it is slow, but I can make things work eventually
261 2010-12-16 02:32:49 <kiba> unwillingness to learn a new skill
262 2010-12-16 02:32:58 <lolcat> json-rpc would be doable
263 2010-12-16 02:33:15 <Sapians> json_decode()
264 2010-12-16 02:33:17 <lolcat> But I dont have an idea, I don't have anything to sell and most things are expencive in Norway
265 2010-12-16 02:33:18 <Sapians> ;)
266 2010-12-16 02:33:55 <Sapians> I've noticed that most sites that use BTC use it in conjunction with another currency, usually the BTC is redeemed for a discount
267 2010-12-16 02:34:20 <Sapians> ohhh, here's an idea: eBay for BTC :)
268 2010-12-16 02:34:56 darrob has joined
269 2010-12-16 02:35:13 <lolcat> If I could afford a cloud and a bunch of employees I would have someone do it for me...
270 2010-12-16 02:35:17 <kiba> Sapians: already don3
271 2010-12-16 02:35:21 <kiba> biddingpond.com
272 2010-12-16 02:35:23 <EvanR> yes
273 2010-12-16 02:35:26 <Sapians> hahaha
274 2010-12-16 02:35:43 <EvanR> also a pool-centric vending site for unlockable stuff
275 2010-12-16 02:35:53 <EvanR> because fivegrind is too slow for normal stuff like that
276 2010-12-16 02:36:04 <kiba> how does that work?
277 2010-12-16 02:36:09 <EvanR> which
278 2010-12-16 02:36:55 <kiba> pool centric vending site
279 2010-12-16 02:37:19 <EvanR> you sell intellectual property, but not per download because that logically makes no sense
280 2010-12-16 02:37:37 <kiba> there is no such thing as intellectual property
281 2010-12-16 02:37:56 <EvanR> it is until you release it
282 2010-12-16 02:37:58 <lolcat> http://www.biddingpond.com/item.php?id=163 -epic xD
283 2010-12-16 02:38:43 <EvanR> so you charge more for it, and people pay increments until the total is reached, then its freely downloadable by anyone
284 2010-12-16 02:39:01 <EvanR> anyone who pays too much gets a partial refund
285 2010-12-16 02:39:07 <Sapians> you got a link to that site EvanR?
286 2010-12-16 02:39:13 <EvanR> i made it up
287 2010-12-16 02:39:24 <EvanR> feel free to implement it ;)
288 2010-12-16 02:39:38 <EvanR> or give me bit coins for the idea
289 2010-12-16 02:39:42 <EvanR> lol
290 2010-12-16 02:39:50 <EvanR> 1F8aLiokSEn1mbd5ApEPtFYhx3oPD7dxeu
291 2010-12-16 02:39:51 <Sapians> hahaha
292 2010-12-16 02:40:43 <EvanR> im thinking source code to a large project would go well with this
293 2010-12-16 02:40:51 <EvanR> maybe
294 2010-12-16 02:41:03 <EvanR> i dont know about 'trailers' or 'trials'
295 2010-12-16 02:42:14 <Sapians> maybe using that as a way to crowdsource funding for ip that will eventually be released open source/creative commons
296 2010-12-16 02:43:18 <EvanR> the text of a book could be sold this way, or the latex version
297 2010-12-16 02:43:18 <EvanR> of an existing book
298 2010-12-16 02:43:26 <EvanR> audio books
299 2010-12-16 02:44:04 <lolcat> Audio latex books?
300 2010-12-16 02:44:34 <EvanR> record yourself reading a book
301 2010-12-16 02:44:34 <EvanR> sell it xD
302 2010-12-16 02:44:51 <lolcat> Nobody wants to hear that
303 2010-12-16 02:44:58 <Sapians> already done
304 2010-12-16 02:44:58 <kiba> Sapians: I have an idea for a project that I am planning to crowdsource
305 2010-12-16 02:45:06 <kiba> wait, it's like Kickstarter, right?
306 2010-12-16 02:45:07 <Sapians> and they release it for free
307 2010-12-16 02:45:09 <Sapians> http://librivox.org/
308 2010-12-16 02:45:44 <Sapians> kinda like kickstarter, but this would *require* whatever is made to be released under an open licence
309 2010-12-16 02:46:05 <lolcat> So everyone can do that? Not illegal?
310 2010-12-16 02:46:26 <EvanR> no, separate ideas
311 2010-12-16 02:47:39 <Sapians> think if BitStarter like this: Project A needs X BTC in order to be completed -> people chip in BTC until goal is reached -> Project A is released to the public and the dev is paid the BTC
312 2010-12-16 02:48:09 <Sapians> and "dev" could be anything from a programmer to a musician
313 2010-12-16 02:50:03 ciuciu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
314 2010-12-16 02:55:17 <Sapians> but I'm not sure such a site would actually work
315 2010-12-16 02:55:38 <Sapians> since there is already lots of work being done to share source code (and music) online for free
316 2010-12-16 02:56:01 <EvanR> you have to have a reputation, and rely on spending bitcoins being fun
317 2010-12-16 02:56:11 <EvanR> but earning is funner
318 2010-12-16 02:57:07 PhirePhly has joined
319 2010-12-16 03:00:56 <EvanR> this post says people without internet access could use bitcoins by trusting me for instance to hand their bitcoins for them with my internet
320 2010-12-16 03:01:04 <EvanR> handle*
321 2010-12-16 03:01:10 <EvanR> possibly at a fee
322 2010-12-16 03:01:21 <Sapians> ??
323 2010-12-16 03:01:32 <EvanR> ah i get it, they ask me to send their coins somewhere etc
324 2010-12-16 03:01:39 <EvanR> and i provide them with their addresses
325 2010-12-16 03:01:50 <EvanR> Sapians: bitcoin and the digital divide
326 2010-12-16 03:01:57 <EvanR> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2112.0
327 2010-12-16 03:02:34 <mndrix> davux: theymos helped me register on the forum when the emails didn't come through. you can probably PM him in the forum
328 2010-12-16 03:02:51 <davux> mndrix: thanks for the tip
329 2010-12-16 03:03:50 <Sapians> here's an idea: creating smartphone apps for bitcoins
330 2010-12-16 03:04:03 <kiba> ...
331 2010-12-16 03:04:10 <kiba> you need to execute some of these
332 2010-12-16 03:04:24 <Sapians> some of these what?
333 2010-12-16 03:04:28 <kiba> ideas
334 2010-12-16 03:04:33 <Sapians> hahaha
335 2010-12-16 03:04:39 * Sapians is an ideas person
336 2010-12-16 03:05:02 <kiba> ideas are worthless until you execute them
337 2010-12-16 03:05:12 <Sapians> to an extent
338 2010-12-16 03:05:16 <kiba> if you have some balls, you will start a bounty
339 2010-12-16 03:05:27 <Sapians> a bounty?
340 2010-12-16 03:05:29 <doublec> I think he needs bitcoins for that rather than balls
341 2010-12-16 03:05:30 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
342 2010-12-16 03:05:41 * Sapians has 0.04 BTCs :P
343 2010-12-16 03:05:45 <kiba> doublec: only metaphorical
344 2010-12-16 03:05:51 <kiba> Sapians: or code
345 2010-12-16 03:05:51 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: and your address i?
346 2010-12-16 03:05:55 <MT`AwAy> is*
347 2010-12-16 03:06:16 <Sapians> 13cL3y9rLEgEKRMr5FKSUGQeHPCGpWVgqm
348 2010-12-16 03:06:28 <Sapians> I only started using bitcoins yesterday
349 2010-12-16 03:06:29 <MT`AwAy> c0ef250be94379891fa70d7f64dd43651f10265c99e857e345e1ad5ed1b2470d
350 2010-12-16 03:06:44 <EvanR> me too
351 2010-12-16 03:06:47 <lolcat> Why a so long adress? Oo
352 2010-12-16 03:06:51 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
353 2010-12-16 03:06:57 <MT`AwAy> not an address but a transaction hash
354 2010-12-16 03:07:23 <lolcat> Is he now rich?
355 2010-12-16 03:07:38 <[Noodles]> arent we all?
356 2010-12-16 03:07:50 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: this is relative
357 2010-12-16 03:09:14 <Sapians> thanks MT :)
358 2010-12-16 03:09:14 <lolcat> I wish I could check that hash and see how much it was...
359 2010-12-16 03:09:21 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: wait for next block
360 2010-12-16 03:09:41 <MT`AwAy> then you'll be able to use blockexplorer
361 2010-12-16 03:09:56 <MT`AwAy> or ask your bitcoin client, it already knows about that hash (there's just no way to get that info yet)
362 2010-12-16 03:11:36 <doublec> if you have the gettransaction patch you can probably get it
363 2010-12-16 03:11:38 <davux> how can we ask our bitcoin client about a transaction not directed to us?
364 2010-12-16 03:11:42 <lolcat> How do I ask my client?
365 2010-12-16 03:11:49 <jb55> json rpc
366 2010-12-16 03:12:24 <doublec> apparently not, gettransaction tells me it's an invalid id
367 2010-12-16 03:12:55 <jb55> same
368 2010-12-16 03:12:57 <davux> yes, it will only talk about transactions that are in the wallet
369 2010-12-16 03:13:04 <doublec> ah, right
370 2010-12-16 03:13:11 <MT`AwAy> yep
371 2010-12-16 03:13:18 <MT`AwAy> your bitcoin client has it in his inventory
372 2010-12-16 03:13:22 <MT`AwAy> but won't tell about it
373 2010-12-16 03:13:23 <MT`AwAy> yet
374 2010-12-16 03:13:42 <davux> i wish gettransaction worked with any txid
375 2010-12-16 03:13:51 <davux> i don't understand this restriction
376 2010-12-16 03:13:58 LobsterMan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
377 2010-12-16 03:15:36 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
378 2010-12-16 03:17:24 <EvanR> bitcoin could be made illegal because you cant reverse transactions?
379 2010-12-16 03:17:39 <lolcat> How would you prevent someone from using it?
380 2010-12-16 03:17:54 <EvanR> by marginalizing it
381 2010-12-16 03:18:07 <EvanR> network non neutrality etc
382 2010-12-16 03:18:09 Cusipzzz has joined
383 2010-12-16 03:18:17 <davux> as long as bitcoin isn't money no financial law applies
384 2010-12-16 03:18:20 <lolcat> Nope, it won't become illegal in the world
385 2010-12-16 03:18:35 <lolcat> EvanR: There is no reverse transactions with cash either...
386 2010-12-16 03:18:42 <EvanR> what i meant was, in many stupid countries
387 2010-12-16 03:18:58 <EvanR> thats true, the policy would not make real sense
388 2010-12-16 03:19:06 <EvanR> but is it still a danger?
389 2010-12-16 03:19:36 <lolcat> Depends what country you are in
390 2010-12-16 03:19:51 <lolcat> I doubt it will become illegal in the next 5 years here
391 2010-12-16 03:20:23 <EvanR> haha the seventh prediction of the form '... in the next N<10 years'
392 2010-12-16 03:20:30 <EvanR> good investment info!
393 2010-12-16 03:20:34 <Sapians> and technically, couldn't you classify BTC as a LETS?
394 2010-12-16 03:21:05 <Sapians> Local Exchange Trading Systems (LETS) also known as LETSystems are locally initiated, democratically organised, not-for-profit community enterprises which provides a community information service and records transactions of members exchanging goods and services by using the currency of locally created LETS Credits.
395 2010-12-16 03:21:13 <Sapians> ^ Wikipedia :P
396 2010-12-16 03:21:23 LobsterMan has joined
397 2010-12-16 03:21:23 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
398 2010-12-16 03:21:23 LobsterMan has joined
399 2010-12-16 03:21:28 <EvanR> yes, put that in the PR
400 2010-12-16 03:21:31 <lolcat> EvanR: Even if they became illegal in your country, you could sell it to someone else...
401 2010-12-16 03:22:05 <EvanR> lolcat: great. so if something cool is illegal you have the option of not doing it
402 2010-12-16 03:22:36 <lolcat> EvanR: I wouldn't say that
403 2010-12-16 03:23:36 * lolcat makes moonshine, does dope, has a questionable sexual moral and break almost any rule...
404 2010-12-16 03:24:00 Auctwo has joined
405 2010-12-16 03:24:24 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
406 2010-12-16 03:24:29 Auctus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
407 2010-12-16 03:24:30 <lolcat> If I get the option to do so, and it pleases me that is
408 2010-12-16 03:26:34 <EvanR> we have bitcoin porn sites, how about bitcoin prostitution
409 2010-12-16 03:26:44 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
410 2010-12-16 03:26:58 Sirius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
411 2010-12-16 03:27:03 Sirius_ has joined
412 2010-12-16 03:27:20 * lolcat offers his services to EvanR for 400 b$
413 2010-12-16 03:27:48 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/c0ef250be94379891fa70d7f64dd43651f10265c99e857e345e1ad5ed1b2470d (for info)
414 2010-12-16 03:28:08 <EvanR> im the pimp, you offer services to someone else and ill let you keep 1%
415 2010-12-16 03:28:18 Cusipzzz has quit ()
416 2010-12-16 03:28:43 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: thx
417 2010-12-16 03:28:44 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: maybe you should disclose what your services are first
418 2010-12-16 03:29:07 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: He inquired about bitcoin prostitution...
419 2010-12-16 03:29:24 <MT`AwAy> oh
420 2010-12-16 03:29:26 PhirePhly has quit (Quit: Page closed)
421 2010-12-16 03:29:30 * davux wishes he owned 2 bitcoins
422 2010-12-16 03:29:34 <lolcat> 04:25 < EvanR> we have bitcoin porn sites, how about bitcoin prostitution
423 2010-12-16 03:29:46 <MT`AwAy> davux: and your address is ?
424 2010-12-16 03:29:52 <davux> !
425 2010-12-16 03:30:02 <MT`AwAy> nah invalid address
426 2010-12-16 03:30:03 <MT`AwAy> too bad
427 2010-12-16 03:30:09 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: I was replying to that, it was somewhat of a joke, since I know he don't live where I do
428 2010-12-16 03:30:16 <davux> MT`AwAy: 1D33jVtdceqkAKYEg6ho3x9nh7MGeRz3oT
429 2010-12-16 03:30:31 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: Why are you giving away bitcoins?
430 2010-12-16 03:30:32 <MT`AwAy> davux: 67d3f8626b79b69c88ec421212f2ba2556c62a088c9c8b4ad673abf2e722530c
431 2010-12-16 03:30:38 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: why not ?
432 2010-12-16 03:30:46 <davux> wow, thanks a lot!
433 2010-12-16 03:31:01 <MT`AwAy> it might just be a way to let those who actually are in the community get some, while the bitcoin faucet just gives to anyone visiting its page
434 2010-12-16 03:31:11 <davux> i'll send them to someone else who needs it when i can
435 2010-12-16 03:31:23 <MT`AwAy> davux: you can also spend them on http://smsz.net/
436 2010-12-16 03:31:24 <MT`AwAy> xD
437 2010-12-16 03:31:27 <lolcat> I have like 200 bitcoins
438 2010-12-16 03:31:43 redengin has joined
439 2010-12-16 03:31:46 <MT`AwAy> I have much more :D
440 2010-12-16 03:31:57 <lolcat> oO
441 2010-12-16 03:31:58 <MT`AwAy> selling web hosting, vps & stuff in bitcoins made me get quite a lot of bitcoins
442 2010-12-16 03:32:12 <lolcat> Unlimited bandwith on those vps'es?
443 2010-12-16 03:32:18 kingdon has joined
444 2010-12-16 03:32:19 <davux> MT`AwAy: what's the name of your service?
445 2010-12-16 03:32:27 <MT`AwAy> and since I can't convert them back to currency without getting assraped by fees, I give them away :p
446 2010-12-16 03:32:35 <MT`AwAy> davux: yep, but no abuse
447 2010-12-16 03:32:40 <MT`AwAy> er
448 2010-12-16 03:32:43 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: yep, but no abuse
449 2010-12-16 03:32:50 <lolcat> I am planning to upgrade from 40GB to ~100GB VPS soon
450 2010-12-16 03:32:53 <MT`AwAy> davux: kalyhost.com for hosting/domains/vps, smsz.net for sms
451 2010-12-16 03:33:03 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: our biggest is 80GB :(
452 2010-12-16 03:33:07 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: Is bitorrent abuse?
453 2010-12-16 03:33:13 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: Twice as much as I have now
454 2010-12-16 03:33:56 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: protocol is not the problem, just make sure you don't go wild on bandwidth usage (usually it's not possible with bittorrent)
455 2010-12-16 03:34:38 <kingdon> Because the protocol is meant to help distribute the load...
456 2010-12-16 03:34:39 <MT`AwAy> (the vps terms include forbidding of p2p to be able to crack down on abusers)
457 2010-12-16 03:35:13 <lolcat> I hate it
458 2010-12-16 03:35:20 <lolcat> My VPS provider.
459 2010-12-16 03:35:34 <lolcat> I pay 20USD for 40GB hdd, 256mb ram, and 100mbit unmetered.
460 2010-12-16 03:35:35 <kingdon> I finally got a decent vpn linkbat my house
461 2010-12-16 03:35:44 <Sapians> MT, the currency on the site is CAD right?
462 2010-12-16 03:35:47 <lolcat> Nobody can match that.
463 2010-12-16 03:35:48 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: if you really need to do torrents I can provide you a vps much more suited for torrents
464 2010-12-16 03:35:59 <EvanR> what about this idea, everyone whos interested sends me a number of coins. i put them all in a geocache (after taking a cut) and hide it somewhere in the world. anyone is free to go get it
465 2010-12-16 03:35:59 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: it's the best currency based on your ip's country
466 2010-12-16 03:36:08 <Sapians> sweet
467 2010-12-16 03:36:23 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: I use about ~1TB of bandwith a month, at least so far this month...
468 2010-12-16 03:36:25 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: you can switch with the upper right dropdown box
469 2010-12-16 03:36:34 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: lol
470 2010-12-16 03:37:10 <lolcat> I pay 20USD, and they don't seam to care about bandwith usage
471 2010-12-16 03:37:25 <davux> MT`AwAy: what country are you in?
472 2010-12-16 03:37:26 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: then stay there ? :D
473 2010-12-16 03:37:30 <lolcat> They don't seam to care about anything really, but their service works.
474 2010-12-16 03:37:31 <MT`AwAy> davux: Japan
475 2010-12-16 03:37:49 <lolcat> MT`AwAy: I need a bigger harddrive, and they havent replied on the email I sent earlier today...
476 2010-12-16 03:38:22 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: give 'em 48 hours
477 2010-12-16 03:38:23 <MT`AwAy> :D
478 2010-12-16 03:38:36 <lolcat> Harddrive and ram is the only things I need a little more of
479 2010-12-16 03:38:55 <lolcat> But 1TB transfer on linode would cost me 5x what I am paying now
480 2010-12-16 03:38:59 <MT`AwAy> yeah, 256MB is really little
481 2010-12-16 03:38:59 <lolcat> Weird world
482 2010-12-16 03:39:12 <lolcat> Yep, can't run MySql on it
483 2010-12-16 03:39:15 <MT`AwAy> my smallest vps is 512MB
484 2010-12-16 03:39:29 <lolcat> For a torrent box, you really dont need more
485 2010-12-16 03:39:46 <lolcat> The storage is my bottleneck
486 2010-12-16 03:39:53 <MT`AwAy> use a nfs server ?
487 2010-12-16 03:40:19 <lolcat> I think I would loose a lot of storage through the connections between the vps and nfs
488 2010-12-16 03:40:29 <lolcat> err, bandwith
489 2010-12-16 03:40:32 <lolcat> Id waste bandwith
490 2010-12-16 03:40:47 <lolcat> seeding/downloading would use a lot of speed
491 2010-12-16 03:40:54 <kiba> lolcat: so you run torrents?
492 2010-12-16 03:41:08 <MT`AwAy> lolcat: the idea would be to copy to nfs only completed entries
493 2010-12-16 03:44:43 StrangeCharm has joined
494 2010-12-16 03:45:22 <MT`AwAy> btw lolcat what kind of vm do they provide?
495 2010-12-16 03:48:07 <Auctwo> does the bitcoin pooled miner support 4-way SSE2?
496 2010-12-16 03:48:16 Auctwo is now known as Auctus
497 2010-12-16 03:48:35 <doublec> Auctus, the latest code from puddinpop does
498 2010-12-16 03:49:02 <Auctus> doublec, cool. So that's why my brother's computer is twice as fast. :P
499 2010-12-16 03:49:20 <doublec> Auctus, have you seen the new pool?
500 2010-12-16 03:49:37 <Auctus> doublec, yeah, I will switch over to it after this block on the old pool finishes
501 2010-12-16 03:50:03 <EvanR> whats the site... coinpaste? cant find it
502 2010-12-16 03:50:07 <doublec> Auctus, I mean this one http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
503 2010-12-16 03:50:12 <doublec> ie. an even newer one
504 2010-12-16 03:50:15 <doublec> using a different system
505 2010-12-16 03:50:25 <Auctus> oh, no I havent.
506 2010-12-16 03:50:31 <doublec> the main downside is distribution of generated coins is manual via transfer
507 2010-12-16 03:50:36 <doublec> rather than at the generated block stage
508 2010-12-16 03:50:43 <doublec> but it can use standard getwork miners
509 2010-12-16 03:51:32 <doublec> I don't know how it decides to distribute the coins though
510 2010-12-16 03:51:33 genjix has left ()
511 2010-12-16 03:51:55 kingdon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
512 2010-12-16 03:51:56 <Auctus> i trust a .co.nz domain more than a .cz one, as far as how likely the people running the server are to be taking a cut
513 2010-12-16 03:51:58 <Auctus> :P
514 2010-12-16 03:53:54 <Auctus> do you have to have your bitcoin client running to receive coins?
515 2010-12-16 03:55:34 <[Noodles]> no, just to spend them
516 2010-12-16 03:55:42 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
517 2010-12-16 03:57:32 alfplayer2 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
518 2010-12-16 04:00:45 <EvanR> so if i upload my photos to pastecoin, will people send me coins??
519 2010-12-16 04:00:55 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: if they are interested
520 2010-12-16 04:01:03 <doublec> are they original?
521 2010-12-16 04:01:12 <EvanR> i took them with my camera several years ago in college
522 2010-12-16 04:01:31 <doublec> not that they have to be, but if they aren't people can just tineye the preview and get them elsewhere.
523 2010-12-16 04:01:40 <EvanR> tineye?
524 2010-12-16 04:01:51 <doublec> http://tineye.com
525 2010-12-16 04:02:07 <doublec> You upoload or give it a link to an image and it finds on the web where it came from
526 2010-12-16 04:02:13 <doublec> even if it has been watermarked, resized, modified
527 2010-12-16 04:02:21 <EvanR> interesting
528 2010-12-16 04:02:42 <EvanR> they are very high rez, is that a problem
529 2010-12-16 04:03:54 <doublec> How big are they (in bytes)?
530 2010-12-16 04:03:59 <doublec> I think pastecoin has an upload limit
531 2010-12-16 04:04:26 <EvanR> this one is like 4.6M
532 2010-12-16 04:04:39 <doublec> you'd have to try it to know
533 2010-12-16 04:04:51 <EvanR> i mean what do people usually want
534 2010-12-16 04:05:01 <EvanR> super high rez or medium
535 2010-12-16 04:05:22 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: if you have suepr high rez, you can make medium by yourself :d
536 2010-12-16 04:05:30 <EvanR> ok then
537 2010-12-16 04:05:34 <MT`AwAy> ie, buying super high rez is better
538 2010-12-16 04:05:35 <MT`AwAy> :p
539 2010-12-16 04:06:08 <EvanR> what do i charge?
540 2010-12-16 04:06:12 <EvanR> 1 coin per pixel!
541 2010-12-16 04:06:44 <EvanR> is it possible to view other things for sale on pastecoin?
542 2010-12-16 04:07:00 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: just look at kiba's thread
543 2010-12-16 04:07:34 <EvanR> ah, so theres no gallery
544 2010-12-16 04:08:11 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: would that be desireable ?
545 2010-12-16 04:08:42 <MT`AwAy> you can discuss features you'd like with genjix
546 2010-12-16 04:09:46 <EvanR> well i can see some serious trading happening if you can click a slew of things for sale and download them all ;)
547 2010-12-16 04:10:20 <MT`AwAy> yep
548 2010-12-16 04:10:26 <MT`AwAy> per-user gallery could be great
549 2010-12-16 04:10:37 <MT`AwAy> in fact, a user system would be a great start on pastecoin
550 2010-12-16 04:10:47 <Sapians> yeah
551 2010-12-16 04:12:18 <EvanR> here goes nothing
552 2010-12-16 04:13:26 <EvanR> i uploaded something
553 2010-12-16 04:13:37 <nanotube> doublec: hmm... maybe you should make a wiki page with a list of mining pools. :)
554 2010-12-16 04:13:59 <EvanR> i have direct link and paid link
555 2010-12-16 04:14:06 <nanotube> EvanR: re: the contribution pool to release a work: there was a php script posted on the forums that allowed you to set up a contribution pool like that. look around.
556 2010-12-16 04:14:19 <EvanR> cool
557 2010-12-16 04:14:37 <EvanR> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=95 did i do this right? :S
558 2010-12-16 04:15:47 <doublec> it'd be good if pastecoin let you add a description as well
559 2010-12-16 04:16:10 <MT`AwAy> doublec: tell that to genjix too :D
560 2010-12-16 04:16:43 <EvanR> or a filename...
561 2010-12-16 04:16:43 <EvanR> brb
562 2010-12-16 04:19:26 onug has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
563 2010-12-16 04:26:00 <nelisky> ;;bc,stats
564 2010-12-16 04:26:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97808 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 975 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 20 hours, 24 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14178.99203053
565 2010-12-16 04:27:05 <EvanR> ok this one is very high rez
566 2010-12-16 04:27:12 <EvanR> and might be more interesting
567 2010-12-16 04:27:26 <EvanR> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=96
568 2010-12-16 04:27:38 kermit has joined
569 2010-12-16 04:27:59 <MT`AwAy> is that your cat?
570 2010-12-16 04:28:10 <MT`AwAy> I mean, who would want to download a lolcat ?
571 2010-12-16 04:28:16 <MT`AwAy> well, pay for a lolcat
572 2010-12-16 04:28:17 <MT`AwAy> :D
573 2010-12-16 04:28:21 <EvanR> as i said
574 2010-12-16 04:28:23 <EvanR> very high rez!
575 2010-12-16 04:28:24 <EvanR> lol
576 2010-12-16 04:28:34 <EvanR> its the cat that lived in the apartment/dorm
577 2010-12-16 04:28:34 <MT`AwAy> I got the almost-exact-same picture featuring my cat
578 2010-12-16 04:28:39 <MT`AwAy> in the same kind of place
579 2010-12-16 04:28:43 <MT`AwAy> using the same face
580 2010-12-16 04:28:50 <EvanR> i but you dont have this one though
581 2010-12-16 04:29:14 genjix has joined
582 2010-12-16 04:29:20 <MT`AwAy> preview generation is slow, maybe genjix is not caching it on disk?
583 2010-12-16 04:29:27 <MT`AwAy> http://pastecoin.com/preview/50c7jopko0.jpg <- takes more than 5 secs x.x
584 2010-12-16 04:29:28 <MT`AwAy> oh
585 2010-12-16 04:29:31 <MT`AwAy> speaking of the devil :D
586 2010-12-16 04:29:39 <genjix> boo
587 2010-12-16 04:29:45 <genjix> i am caching it.
588 2010-12-16 04:29:54 <genjix> it's stored in the database.
589 2010-12-16 04:29:59 <MT`AwAy> lol
590 2010-12-16 04:30:13 <MT`AwAy> EvanR had some suggestions for you I think
591 2010-12-16 04:30:13 <EvanR> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=97
592 2010-12-16 04:30:14 <MT`AwAy> :D
593 2010-12-16 04:30:15 <genjix> (i mean the filename of the preview)
594 2010-12-16 04:30:38 <EvanR> haha never thought of these as lol cat pictures
595 2010-12-16 04:31:01 <MT`AwAy> anyway I'm going back to work
596 2010-12-16 04:31:05 <MT`AwAy> got other things to do than irc
597 2010-12-16 04:31:12 <EvanR> genjix: a gallery could be cool
598 2010-12-16 04:31:33 <genjix> if someone wants to take over the site and implement these features then its opensource
599 2010-12-16 04:31:38 <EvanR> like at a bazaar you got a selection of items to choose from but this only shows you one thing at a time and also has no way to browse
600 2010-12-16 04:31:44 <genjix> https://github.com/genjix/pastecoin
601 2010-12-16 04:32:08 <EvanR> who gets a cut then?
602 2010-12-16 04:32:10 <genjix> i wrote it as a hackjob over a weekend to learn bitcoin
603 2010-12-16 04:32:37 <genjix> either a) you can buy the site off me and maintain it
604 2010-12-16 04:32:38 <MT`AwAy> genjix: so if someone takes over I should give 'em the vps?
605 2010-12-16 04:32:43 <genjix> yes
606 2010-12-16 04:32:50 <MT`AwAy> 'k
607 2010-12-16 04:32:52 <genjix> b) setup your own since the sourcecode is there
608 2010-12-16 04:33:04 <genjix> oh and MT`AwAy gets a cut too if you buy it :p
609 2010-12-16 04:33:16 <MT`AwAy> xD
610 2010-12-16 04:33:39 <genjix> buy you buy it and you get all the people already using it + the brand ;)
611 2010-12-16 04:33:49 <genjix> and it's all setup too
612 2010-12-16 04:34:04 <EvanR> satisfaction guaranteed or your money back, minus shipping
613 2010-12-16 04:34:44 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: and like chinese ebay sellers, 1$ price, 99$ shipping
614 2010-12-16 04:34:44 <genjix> (i want to pass it on since people keep asking for features i dont have time to develop cos of my other bitcoin project in the works)
615 2010-12-16 04:35:12 kingdon has joined
616 2010-12-16 04:35:12 <EvanR> at some point i was told websites were easy to develop
617 2010-12-16 04:35:14 <genjix> (but its a shame to let it go to watse)
618 2010-12-16 04:35:32 <EvanR> thanks to phpoop, its like reliable nice websites are even harder to write than C code
619 2010-12-16 04:35:40 <MT`AwAy> genjix: I could have considered taking over with a new codebase if I had time to, but html is just not my thing
620 2010-12-16 04:35:57 <kiba> I don't write in html
621 2010-12-16 04:36:03 <kiba> I write in haml!
622 2010-12-16 04:36:12 * Sapians is a php user
623 2010-12-16 04:36:19 * MT`AwAy is a php freak
624 2010-12-16 04:36:27 * MT`AwAy got a @php.net email :D
625 2010-12-16 04:36:34 * kiba is a rails developer
626 2010-12-16 04:37:01 <Sapians> I tried rails, but it was a pain to try and set up - not to mention trying to learn the language
627 2010-12-16 04:37:06 <genjix> MT`AwAy: how come you have a php email? :D
628 2010-12-16 04:37:18 <MT`AwAy> genjix: because I write patches to php and fix bugs in php
629 2010-12-16 04:37:33 <MT`AwAy> I got a svn access to the php source
630 2010-12-16 04:37:37 <MT`AwAy> :p
631 2010-12-16 04:37:40 <Sapians> I know who I'm going to contact if I have a question on php that I can't find the answer to :P
632 2010-12-16 04:37:44 <genjix> bows to MT
633 2010-12-16 04:37:53 <genjix> good job
634 2010-12-16 04:38:02 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: I'm already helping people like mtgox :p
635 2010-12-16 04:38:12 <MT`AwAy> (can't tell on what, but you'll know soon enough)
636 2010-12-16 04:38:24 <kiba> Sapians: it is easy to set up
637 2010-12-16 04:38:38 <kiba> but I am biased
638 2010-12-16 04:38:41 <MT`AwAy> genjix: well just saying, anyway coding the backend for a pastecoin-like service is easy, what I don't like doing is the html thingy
639 2010-12-16 04:38:54 <kiba> I would like 0 confirmation
640 2010-12-16 04:38:58 <kiba> but genjix is too lazy to do it
641 2010-12-16 04:39:05 <MT`AwAy> :p
642 2010-12-16 04:39:09 <EvanR> MT`AwAy: right.
643 2010-12-16 04:39:13 <EvanR> html is crap
644 2010-12-16 04:39:13 <kiba> and I am too lazy to pay genjix
645 2010-12-16 04:39:15 <MT`AwAy> 0 confirmation download, wouldn't be too hard
646 2010-12-16 04:39:29 <MT`AwAy> (but you only get your share once confirmed)
647 2010-12-16 04:39:31 <kiba> I looked through the source, couldn't find a way to do it
648 2010-12-16 04:39:33 <Sapians> MT`AwAy: I'm crap at design as well... which is why I use free templates :P
649 2010-12-16 04:39:39 <genjix> MT`AwAy: i tried 0 confirmation download and it didn't work
650 2010-12-16 04:39:46 <kiba> why it didn't work?
651 2010-12-16 04:39:48 kingdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
652 2010-12-16 04:40:02 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: I hate touching html, that's why I hire people
653 2010-12-16 04:40:11 <doublec> genjix, does pastecoin make much money?
654 2010-12-16 04:40:15 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: http://en.wiki.gg.st/wiki/TplEditor <- and made a separate tpl editor
655 2010-12-16 04:40:18 <genjix> doublec: no.
656 2010-12-16 04:40:26 <doublec> genjix, maybe you should sell it as a going concern by auction
657 2010-12-16 04:40:40 <genjix> most people upload files for 1 btc = 0.02 btc for me :D
658 2010-12-16 04:40:43 <kiba> first site auction in bitcoin
659 2010-12-16 04:40:56 <genjix> doublec: what is that? a going concern?
660 2010-12-16 04:41:08 <doublec> genjix, it means selling an operating business
661 2010-12-16 04:41:21 <genjix> ok. I'll do that/
662 2010-12-16 04:41:22 <kiba> how much do you value the pastecoin name, genjix ?
663 2010-12-16 04:41:23 <MT`AwAy> anyone willing to do the design/html/slave part of a pastecoin-like site with http://en.wiki.gg.st/wiki/TplEditor for 200 btc?
664 2010-12-16 04:41:24 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: ooooh exciting secrets!
665 2010-12-16 04:41:27 <doublec> genjix, so the owner gets the name pastecoin.com, etc
666 2010-12-16 04:41:52 <EvanR> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=98
667 2010-12-16 04:42:08 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: ooh, it's red
668 2010-12-16 04:42:10 <kiba> maybe bencoder would have a decent name for his domain
669 2010-12-16 04:42:11 <kiba> err
670 2010-12-16 04:42:13 <doublec> 0 confirmations would increase the uptake I think
671 2010-12-16 04:42:15 <kiba> download site
672 2010-12-16 04:42:17 <EvanR> haha
673 2010-12-16 04:42:19 <MT`AwAy> this one actually looks nice
674 2010-12-16 04:42:20 <doublec> paying and waiting is a bit of a downer
675 2010-12-16 04:42:35 <MT`AwAy> :p
676 2010-12-16 04:42:38 <kiba> yeah, you should fix that
677 2010-12-16 04:42:40 <genjix> doublec: i couldnt get 0 confirmations to work
678 2010-12-16 04:42:41 <kiba> I might be losing customer
679 2010-12-16 04:42:59 <kiba> genjix: dude, just give people more details and start making it work
680 2010-12-16 04:43:03 <genjix> i just added 0 as a third argument to everything
681 2010-12-16 04:43:03 <doublec> genjix, right, the bitcoind server doesn't show it
682 2010-12-16 04:43:14 Phoebus has joined
683 2010-12-16 04:43:22 StrangeCharm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
684 2010-12-16 04:43:23 <MT`AwAy> doublec: it does
685 2010-12-16 04:43:28 <doublec> genjix, I'd use the monitortransaction patch on bitcoind and monitor the addresses
686 2010-12-16 04:43:38 <doublec> genjix, you'll get immediate notification of a payment then
687 2010-12-16 04:43:51 <doublec> MT`AwAy, yes but you have to poll for it
688 2010-12-16 04:43:56 <genjix> and it didn't work- getbalance(accname, 0) move(..., 0) sendfromaccount(..., 0)
689 2010-12-16 04:44:10 <genjix> doublec: is that in svn? or... ?
690 2010-12-16 04:44:11 <MT`AwAy> doublec: just check when the guy reloads the page, no need to poll at other time
691 2010-12-16 04:44:21 <doublec> genjix, it's in gavin's git repository
692 2010-12-16 04:44:39 <MT`AwAy> genjix: sendfromaccount is meaningless
693 2010-12-16 04:45:05 <genjix> MT`AwAy: why, works for me?
694 2010-12-16 04:45:24 <MT`AwAy> genjix: I mean it doesn't have much difference when compared to sendtoaddress
695 2010-12-16 04:45:38 <MT`AwAy> anyway
696 2010-12-16 04:45:44 <genjix> except that I'm using ip addresses for accounts
697 2010-12-16 04:45:44 <MT`AwAy> I guess nobody wants to help for 200 btc :p
698 2010-12-16 04:45:55 <kiba> help what?
699 2010-12-16 04:45:59 <MT`AwAy> html
700 2010-12-16 04:46:06 * kiba doesn't do html
701 2010-12-16 04:46:12 <kiba> at least not directly
702 2010-12-16 04:46:13 <EvanR> alright ill do it.
703 2010-12-16 04:46:19 <kiba> and I sucks at designing site anyway
704 2010-12-16 04:46:23 <MT`AwAy> <MT`AwAy> anyone willing to do the design/html/slave part of a pastecoin-like site with http://en.wiki.gg.st/wiki/TplEditor for 200 btc?
705 2010-12-16 04:46:32 <kiba> MT`AwAy: you're doing the download site too?
706 2010-12-16 04:46:36 <EvanR> oh tpleditor
707 2010-12-16 04:46:37 <MT`AwAy> maybe
708 2010-12-16 04:46:39 <EvanR> wtf
709 2010-12-16 04:46:42 <doublec> everyone's doing download sites!
710 2010-12-16 04:46:43 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: :D
711 2010-12-16 04:46:48 <EvanR> what happened to vim
712 2010-12-16 04:46:57 <doublec> bitcoin has moved from gambling sites as the first thing people do
713 2010-12-16 04:46:58 <MT`AwAy> kiba: adding the features you requested wouldn't be much difficult
714 2010-12-16 04:47:04 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: vim has troubles editing data in mysql
715 2010-12-16 04:47:31 <EvanR> most things do
716 2010-12-16 04:47:42 <MT`AwAy> that's why I wrote my own tpl editor
717 2010-12-16 04:47:53 <genjix> \m/ vim
718 2010-12-16 04:48:17 <EvanR> why do i have to use this editor
719 2010-12-16 04:48:19 <MT`AwAy> also most of the guys I hire to do html do not even know what a console is
720 2010-12-16 04:48:25 <MT`AwAy> xD
721 2010-12-16 04:48:33 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: well then let's forget it
722 2010-12-16 04:48:43 <kiba> I have to design it, not just code it?
723 2010-12-16 04:49:01 <MT`AwAy> kiba: of course, if 200 btc is not enough, then let's say 400
724 2010-12-16 04:49:09 <kiba> what does this have to do with..umm
725 2010-12-16 04:49:12 <kiba> mysql?
726 2010-12-16 04:49:17 <EvanR> right
727 2010-12-16 04:49:22 <EvanR> lol
728 2010-12-16 04:49:25 <MT`AwAy> kiba: template engine I wrote stores stuff in mysql
729 2010-12-16 04:49:41 <kiba> and why do I have to mess with mysql?
730 2010-12-16 04:49:47 <MT`AwAy> kiba: and when you "compile" (a button in the tpl editor interface) it generates optimized cache files used for site rendering
731 2010-12-16 04:49:51 alystair has joined
732 2010-12-16 04:50:01 <MT`AwAy> kiba: you don't, the tpl editor does everything for you
733 2010-12-16 04:50:01 <MT`AwAy> xD
734 2010-12-16 04:50:11 <kiba> why can't I used emacs instead?
735 2010-12-16 04:50:17 <EvanR> haha
736 2010-12-16 04:50:24 <MT`AwAy> kiba: write a xslt backend for emacs?
737 2010-12-16 04:50:30 <EvanR> the operation doesnt sound very unixy
738 2010-12-16 04:50:31 <MT`AwAy> not xslt
739 2010-12-16 04:50:31 <MT`AwAy> er
740 2010-12-16 04:50:42 <MT`AwAy> wddx
741 2010-12-16 04:50:51 * MT`AwAy swears at stupid xml formats
742 2010-12-16 04:50:57 <genjix> MT`AwAy: your project looks pretty cool. why haven't you popularised it?
743 2010-12-16 04:50:59 <kiba> 1000 BTC or I am nto doing it
744 2010-12-16 04:51:08 <genjix> or are you still chipping away at it.
745 2010-12-16 04:51:19 <MT`AwAy> genjix: which one ?
746 2010-12-16 04:51:22 <genjix> kiba: wtf you should show some work at least.
747 2010-12-16 04:51:30 <genjix> MT`AwAy: the editor
748 2010-12-16 04:51:33 <MT`AwAy> genjix: don't forget kiba is an artist :D
749 2010-12-16 04:51:37 <kiba> genjix: what ya talking about?
750 2010-12-16 04:51:41 <kiba> I have some work
751 2010-12-16 04:51:47 <kiba> it's called www.soulplaying.com
752 2010-12-16 04:52:11 <MT`AwAy> genjix: it's internal stuff, just like gawker's leaked GANJA framework, except I didn't write it while smoking pot, so it looks a bit better
753 2010-12-16 04:52:51 <kiba> I am an artist/programmer
754 2010-12-16 04:53:20 * MT`AwAy is looking for people who love html/js/css and don't care about dev
755 2010-12-16 04:53:35 judge_mental has left ()
756 2010-12-16 04:53:40 <doublec> I am the inverse of that
757 2010-12-16 04:53:43 <Phoebus> Also haxx0r right? :P
758 2010-12-16 04:53:44 <kiba> you never going to get me to write in direct html
759 2010-12-16 04:53:48 <kiba> I can do haml
760 2010-12-16 04:54:10 <genjix> i hate html/css <- most hacked up standards ever. but i do love gfx design :p
761 2010-12-16 04:54:10 <EvanR> MT`AwAy is using a custom templater
762 2010-12-16 04:54:45 <kiba> isn't there a job board site for bitcoin?
763 2010-12-16 04:54:48 <kiba> you could use that
764 2010-12-16 04:54:53 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: I'm using that so I can have people do the html for me, I got like 3~4 ppl working on various projects, but no spare to work on bitcoin-related projects yet
765 2010-12-16 04:55:16 <MT`AwAy> and I haven't much time myself either since I have a bitcoin client to finish
766 2010-12-16 04:55:22 * Zarutian give a toughtfull but off topic link http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96sep/kunstler/kunstler.htm
767 2010-12-16 04:55:40 <kiba> suburian sprawl
768 2010-12-16 04:55:46 <EvanR> i should just stop playing around and get my own site together
769 2010-12-16 04:55:48 * kiba didn't even click on the link
770 2010-12-16 04:55:57 <kiba> I got my own site but nobody use it
771 2010-12-16 04:56:00 <kiba> at least not yet
772 2010-12-16 04:56:14 <Sapians> linky?
773 2010-12-16 04:56:17 <MT`AwAy> I got a few sales on kalyhost in bitcoins:D
774 2010-12-16 04:56:23 <kiba> www.soulplaying.com
775 2010-12-16 04:56:25 <MT`AwAy> but now I got bitcoins I can't use :p
776 2010-12-16 04:56:28 <EvanR> i dont have hosting, i would definitely be interested in renting with you MT`AwAy, when i have more than 40USD to my name
777 2010-12-16 04:56:42 <Sapians> I think you'll like my idea MT`AwAy ;)
778 2010-12-16 04:56:51 <Zarutian> kiba: alread read it then? well at least if it entices more people to read it I am contently satisfied.
779 2010-12-16 04:57:05 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: why can't you use your bitcoins?
780 2010-12-16 04:57:08 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: I stopped at word "Americans"
781 2010-12-16 04:57:21 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: well, I can *use* them, just can't exchange them
782 2010-12-16 04:57:29 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: you can at worst, sell them on mtgox or cash out with bitcoin2cc, or sell on -otc
783 2010-12-16 04:57:31 <kiba> because MT`AwAy isn't in America?
784 2010-12-16 04:57:47 <nanotube> it is possible to convert usd to ... any other currency, you know, kiba :)
785 2010-12-16 04:57:56 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
786 2010-12-16 04:58:01 <Sapians> you know what would be awesome?
787 2010-12-16 04:58:08 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: exchanging with mtgox causes fee to go at least 0.65%+1%+x%+3.9%+2.5%
788 2010-12-16 04:58:08 <Sapians> if Kiva accepted BTCs
789 2010-12-16 04:58:11 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: would that btc client include an url handler for the scheme I and theymos put together few moons back?
790 2010-12-16 04:58:20 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: would be possible
791 2010-12-16 04:58:30 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: well, try putting up some orders for jpy on otc. :)
792 2010-12-16 04:58:31 <Zarutian> Sapians: who or what is Kiva?
793 2010-12-16 04:58:34 <kiba> nanotube: what about it?
794 2010-12-16 04:58:41 <kiba> my site accept bitcoin only
795 2010-12-16 04:58:42 <kiba> not USD
796 2010-12-16 04:58:49 <kiba> but I didn't update the front page
797 2010-12-16 04:58:50 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: I'm like the only guy living in Japan around bitcoins
798 2010-12-16 04:58:58 <Sapians> Zarutian: http://www.kiva.org/
799 2010-12-16 04:59:01 <nanotube> i recall seeing a few people with .jp hosts :)
800 2010-12-16 04:59:07 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: --^
801 2010-12-16 04:59:09 <nanotube> so you may be surprised.
802 2010-12-16 04:59:16 <MT`AwAy> xD
803 2010-12-16 04:59:31 <Zarutian> Sapians: a micro loan institution? it would be nifty indeed.
804 2010-12-16 04:59:39 <Sapians> yeah
805 2010-12-16 04:59:43 <MT`AwAy> and I'm too lazy to try to get inside otc's "web of trust", and last time I asked someone from there to sell my bitcoin the proposed rate was like 1/4th of mtgox
806 2010-12-16 04:59:53 <EvanR> microloan, is the interest rate 500% :D
807 2010-12-16 05:00:02 <Sapians> nope
808 2010-12-16 05:00:04 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: kiva is 0% interest
809 2010-12-16 05:00:05 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: 1/4th? that's crazy talk.
810 2010-12-16 05:00:21 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: anyway I'd need to spend more time on that, which I can't currently
811 2010-12-16 05:00:23 <MT`AwAy> :p
812 2010-12-16 05:00:38 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: where in Japan? Osaka? Tokyo? Northen coast?
813 2010-12-16 05:00:46 <nanotube> just suggesting. it's up to you. :) it's actually nice that you're trying to spend your bitcoins for other stuff directly. expands the bitcoin economy and all that. ):
814 2010-12-16 05:00:46 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: Tokyo
815 2010-12-16 05:00:49 <nanotube> :) that is.
816 2010-12-16 05:01:04 <genjix> how long is normal to leave a bidding auction for my baby?
817 2010-12-16 05:01:09 <genjix> 3 days?
818 2010-12-16 05:01:14 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: I hire people to do sites and give away bitcoins to people who actually come to irc to learn more about bitcoins
819 2010-12-16 05:01:23 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: how distant from Akibara or Shinjunku station?
820 2010-12-16 05:01:37 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: about 25 min from shinjuku, 35min from Akiba
821 2010-12-16 05:02:26 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: righto :)
822 2010-12-16 05:02:47 <MT`AwAy> but for now on http://bitcoin.org/trade there's not much I'm directly interested in :p
823 2010-12-16 05:03:06 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: hmm.. I think I saw a series of vids from an Tokyo local hackerspace, perhaps they might be interested?
824 2010-12-16 05:03:29 <Sapians> MT`AwAy: http://www.bitcoin2cc.com/ ?
825 2010-12-16 05:03:43 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: we'd first need bitcoin to be translated in japanese
826 2010-12-16 05:04:17 <Sapians> anyways, it's been lovely chatting with you guys - I look forward to seeing what the future has in store for BTC :)
827 2010-12-16 05:04:18 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: what kind of stuff /are/ you interested in? (besides some webdev, which we already know about)
828 2010-12-16 05:04:29 Sapians is now known as Sapians|Away
829 2010-12-16 05:04:33 <MT`AwAy> Sapians: I thought about it, but those visa are "dangerous" if you can't spend exactly the amount written on there
830 2010-12-16 05:04:53 <Sapians> Away!~me@os-dsl-0807.bmts.com|very true
831 2010-12-16 05:05:18 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: how badly? I might be slightly helpfull (while learning tourists nihongo) at translating
832 2010-12-16 05:05:29 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: maybe if someone sold eve online PLEX
833 2010-12-16 05:05:52 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: what is PLEX?
834 2010-12-16 05:06:00 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: PLEX is eve online gameplay time
835 2010-12-16 05:06:00 <MT`AwAy> :)
836 2010-12-16 05:06:12 <MT`AwAy> and there is currently *no* bitcoin japanese versions at all
837 2010-12-16 05:06:17 <Phoebus> You still play eve? :P
838 2010-12-16 05:06:22 <genjix> MT`AwAy: you get 35% of the auction for pastecoin- am i being reasonable? you want 50%?
839 2010-12-16 05:06:29 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: yes, about 1h/week xD
840 2010-12-16 05:06:32 <Zarutian> would it be neat if CCP accepted btc as part of payment?
841 2010-12-16 05:06:37 <MT`AwAy> genjix: 35% is fine
842 2010-12-16 05:06:40 <genjix> k
843 2010-12-16 05:06:49 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, I quit a year or more ago >.< Heard of KIA? My homeboys.
844 2010-12-16 05:06:53 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: that would be neat, but people could also just sell PLEX by themselves
845 2010-12-16 05:07:04 <nanotube> heh,maybe post a forum thread with your ask, MT`AwAy
846 2010-12-16 05:07:23 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: people selling PLEX is fine by CCP if I recall correctly
847 2010-12-16 05:07:37 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: yep, I think so
848 2010-12-16 05:08:02 redengin has joined
849 2010-12-16 05:08:37 <Zarutian> if y'all wish I can drop by their hq (if they havent moved to a foreign country due to the economic situation here) and suggest they accept btc for PLEX
850 2010-12-16 05:10:07 <genjix> MT`AwAy: I use this to backup my wallets http://pastebin.com/0r7MRGbb ... did you ever think of setting up a bitcoin backup service for people? they download a setup.sh script (which transfers the keys to the server), and then it sets up a cron job.
851 2010-12-16 05:10:30 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
852 2010-12-16 05:10:40 <MT`AwAy> genjix: I'm already planning a bitcoin wallet backup service in my client
853 2010-12-16 05:10:41 <Phoebus> So put the wallets all in one place, to be stolen together? :)
854 2010-12-16 05:10:55 <genjix> hehe cool
855 2010-12-16 05:10:57 <MT`AwAy> which can only be enabled if wallet encryption is activated
856 2010-12-16 05:11:09 <genjix> wallet encryption = the best
857 2010-12-16 05:11:19 <genjix> bitcoin should have that
858 2010-12-16 05:11:20 <talso> i hide mine in a truecrypt container ;)
859 2010-12-16 05:11:33 <MT`AwAy> wallet encryption = to make a transaction you have to input a password
860 2010-12-16 05:11:44 <MT`AwAy> but to create a new address you don't need
861 2010-12-16 05:12:16 <genjix> neat
862 2010-12-16 05:12:54 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: will your btc client allow one to see and specify from which btc addresses one wants the coins of a particular transaction to come
863 2010-12-16 05:13:00 <MT`AwAy> and the wallet backup service will automatically backup the wallet when it changes, so the backup will never be "late"
864 2010-12-16 05:13:16 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: that's in the planned features of the extended api
865 2010-12-16 05:13:51 <MT`AwAy> you will be able to either do that by address, or by transaction id (ie, if you want to give somone a % over a transaction you received)
866 2010-12-16 05:14:09 * Zarutian sneaks his donation btc-address 1MYWGLJfR7W1tMez8ZVkgo8MR8o9sWJpSi
867 2010-12-16 05:15:12 Lysacor has joined
868 2010-12-16 05:15:19 <Zarutian> that would be pretty kewl
869 2010-12-16 05:17:28 <Lysacor> ;;bc;mtgox
870 2010-12-16 05:17:28 <gribble> Error: "bc;mtgox" is not a valid command.
871 2010-12-16 05:17:28 * Zarutian bows and thanks the anonymous donor
872 2010-12-16 05:17:38 <Lysacor> ;;bc,mtgox
873 2010-12-16 05:17:38 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.246,"low":0.238,"vol":3829,"buy":0.225,"sell":0.2457,"last":0.2458}}
874 2010-12-16 05:17:58 <Lysacor> looks like the market is settling a bit higher
875 2010-12-16 05:18:01 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: you're welcome
876 2010-12-16 05:18:08 <Lysacor> not a bad thing for growth
877 2010-12-16 05:19:03 <EvanR> if growth vs usd keeps like this, is bitcoins good investment
878 2010-12-16 05:19:18 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: it's too early for that, I think
879 2010-12-16 05:19:27 <talso> high risk imho
880 2010-12-16 05:19:39 <EvanR> high risk high reward!
881 2010-12-16 05:20:11 <Lysacor> there needs to be more value in the market before it will be taken seriously by larger investors
882 2010-12-16 05:20:26 <genjix> bitcoins better not drop now sudenly that I've been a whole load of them.
883 2010-12-16 05:20:36 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
884 2010-12-16 05:20:36 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.246,"low":0.238,"vol":3829,"buy":0.225,"sell":0.2457,"last":0.2458}}
885 2010-12-16 05:20:36 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: you can keep this behind your ear when an nihongo version of btc clients become aviable http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Tokyo
886 2010-12-16 05:21:11 <Lysacor> !facts
887 2010-12-16 05:21:11 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: I'm registered on the Tokyo LUG
888 2010-12-16 05:21:26 <EvanR> one mention of it on NPR and itll definitely have effect...
889 2010-12-16 05:21:37 <EvanR> marketplace
890 2010-12-16 05:22:28 <Lysacor> whatever method it is presented in the press, it needs to be a controlled and consistent message, that is for certain
891 2010-12-16 05:23:07 * EvanR bribes the press with bitcoins for good publiciy
892 2010-12-16 05:23:10 <EvanR> t
893 2010-12-16 05:23:57 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: Linux User Group? Hmm.. if you are somewhat interested in computer-security then let me know.
894 2010-12-16 05:24:32 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: computer security is part of my work :p
895 2010-12-16 05:26:18 <Zarutian> MT`AwAy: dont you appall over how amissable much ambient authority is granted to apps by default?
896 2010-12-16 05:27:10 <MT`AwAy> Zarutian: most people do and there are already many workarounds for that
897 2010-12-16 05:34:32 MattDrollette has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
898 2010-12-16 05:36:42 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
899 2010-12-16 05:39:18 lfm has quit (Quit: Page closed)
900 2010-12-16 05:40:37 <Lysacor> ;;bc,help
901 2010-12-16 05:40:37 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
902 2010-12-16 05:41:01 <Lysacor> ;;bc,stats
903 2010-12-16 05:41:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97818 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 965 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 37 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14189.06330217
904 2010-12-16 05:42:52 <EvanR> what about a wishing well
905 2010-12-16 05:43:45 darrob has joined
906 2010-12-16 05:44:10 <EvanR> a cute animation shows money going into it, and is a live view of the recorded donations in the well
907 2010-12-16 05:44:46 <EvanR> anyone is allowed to vote on how its used every day or so, and submit new uses.
908 2010-12-16 05:44:51 <EvanR> like which charity or whatever
909 2010-12-16 05:45:29 <EvanR> and you can write a wish with your donation, which will obviously come true !
910 2010-12-16 05:47:41 ColonelPanic1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
911 2010-12-16 05:47:48 MattDrollette has joined
912 2010-12-16 05:51:48 ColonelPanic1 has joined
913 2010-12-16 05:53:40 <genjix> EvanR: bitcoin only has hackers anarchist types taking it up so far
914 2010-12-16 05:53:52 <genjix> i doubt anyone here would want to "waste" money on that :p
915 2010-12-16 05:54:03 <genjix> we're not bored little girls
916 2010-12-16 05:54:25 <genjix> but i like the idea actually. it's cool.
917 2010-12-16 05:55:15 <MT`AwAy> the bored little hackers give to EFF
918 2010-12-16 05:55:16 <MT`AwAy> xD
919 2010-12-16 05:56:53 <genjix> stallman should go naked for charity (the EFF)
920 2010-12-16 05:56:59 <genjix> i would pay.
921 2010-12-16 05:59:35 Lysacor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
922 2010-12-16 05:59:36 <MT`AwAy> I wouldn't want to see that
923 2010-12-16 06:00:12 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
924 2010-12-16 06:01:04 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
925 2010-12-16 06:04:24 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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936 2010-12-16 06:54:26 * kiba is a pinnacle of superposter
937 2010-12-16 06:54:33 <kiba> I post like crazy O_o
938 2010-12-16 07:19:04 sgornick has joined
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942 2010-12-16 07:26:58 Phoebus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
943 2010-12-16 07:32:31 <davux> gavinandresen: are you in charge of the wiki?
944 2010-12-16 07:33:02 <davux> i think i saw your name floating around some page footer
945 2010-12-16 07:34:45 <MT`AwAy> kiba: we noticed
946 2010-12-16 07:34:50 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: how many CU does a 5750 have? 9?
947 2010-12-16 07:35:14 <MT`AwAy> ok, today I'll finish the node lookup code via irc, and start the inter-node communication protocol
948 2010-12-16 07:37:03 Granttt has joined
949 2010-12-16 07:37:13 <ArtForz> I think so
950 2010-12-16 07:39:14 oruchrocehrhurce has joined
951 2010-12-16 07:39:56 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
952 2010-12-16 07:39:56 Granttt has joined
953 2010-12-16 07:41:37 <da2ce7> dose anyone know how to calculate the current rate of bitcoin monetary inflation due to generation?
954 2010-12-16 07:41:50 <da2ce7> *oh has worked out the formula.
955 2010-12-16 07:42:30 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: well, theres the problem
956 2010-12-16 07:42:32 <Diablo-D3> there may be none
957 2010-12-16 07:42:42 <Diablo-D3> people already price btc based on the fact theres 21 million of them
958 2010-12-16 07:42:56 <Diablo-D3> there may be no inflationary adjustment needing to be done
959 2010-12-16 07:44:23 <da2ce7> Bitcoin will be in monetary infation as long as we generate them. The value on the other hand will prob be in deflation.
960 2010-12-16 07:45:07 RazielZ has joined
961 2010-12-16 07:45:13 <da2ce7> I want to work out the "real" inflation that is deflation/inflation in USD or whatever + monatary inflation.
962 2010-12-16 07:46:13 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: ahh, not value inflation?
963 2010-12-16 07:46:26 <Diablo-D3> still, arguably, bitcoin isnt inflating
964 2010-12-16 07:46:32 <Diablo-D3> we're just naming the coins that already exist
965 2010-12-16 07:47:38 <da2ce7> ok, what is the current instanious percentage of bitcoins being generated v.s. coins already in circulation.
966 2010-12-16 07:47:56 <Diablo-D3> hrm, not sure.
967 2010-12-16 07:48:01 <Diablo-D3> art might know
968 2010-12-16 07:48:20 <ArtForz> right now?
969 2010-12-16 07:48:28 <Diablo-D3> also
970 2010-12-16 07:48:29 <ArtForz> 1/97835 every 10 minutes
971 2010-12-16 07:48:32 <Diablo-D3> [02:33:22] <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: how many CU does a 5750 have? 9?
972 2010-12-16 07:48:52 <ArtForz> <ArtForz> I think so
973 2010-12-16 07:48:59 enoxice has joined
974 2010-12-16 07:49:12 <ArtForz> and in 10 minutes it'll be 1/97836
975 2010-12-16 07:49:50 <da2ce7> so atm bitcoin is montanarly inflating at 37% p.a.?
976 2010-12-16 07:49:51 <Diablo-D3> ahh didnt see your answer
977 2010-12-16 07:49:58 <ArtForz> erm... no
978 2010-12-16 07:50:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: someone posted to my thread saying it was a 4750 so why does it say juniper... it has 5750 speed.
979 2010-12-16 07:50:19 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so clearly, its a 5750
980 2010-12-16 07:50:36 <ArtForz> if it says juniper it's a 5750
981 2010-12-16 07:50:46 <Diablo-D3> yeah it has to be
982 2010-12-16 07:51:01 <ArtForz> 4750 doesn't exist, and if it did it'd be a RV7xx
983 2010-12-16 07:51:29 <Diablo-D3> huh, you're right, it doesnt exist
984 2010-12-16 07:52:24 <Granttt> da2ce7
985 2010-12-16 07:52:40 <ArtForz> 2011 we'll have about ... 34.5%
986 2010-12-16 07:52:41 <Granttt> da2ce7: you mean monetary expansion or inflation through devaluation ?
987 2010-12-16 07:53:49 <ArtForz> 2012 ... 25.5% or so
988 2010-12-16 07:54:26 <ArtForz> 2013 ... 10% (generation drops to 25/block late 2012)
989 2010-12-16 07:54:32 <da2ce7> yeah, but that rate can be instaniously calculated for any given time useing a ODE. Just wondering if sombody has worked out the formula already
990 2010-12-16 07:55:19 <da2ce7> it isn't a simple ODE as the rate of decline isn't smooth.
991 2010-12-16 07:56:07 <ArtForz> yep
992 2010-12-16 08:04:43 Phoebus_ is now known as Phoebus
993 2010-12-16 08:05:15 <Phoebus> What do you guys think about bitvote, distributed voting/decision making?
994 2010-12-16 08:05:38 <Diablo-D3> Phoebus: it would destroy the republican party, really
995 2010-12-16 08:05:49 <Phoebus> Use a similar setup, but the problem is, giving a hash for a real identity.
996 2010-12-16 08:06:22 <Phoebus> Diablo-D3, I guess. But what if it's used for more things than just politics.
997 2010-12-16 08:06:48 <Diablo-D3> meh, overkill then
998 2010-12-16 08:06:58 <Phoebus> How do you mean?
999 2010-12-16 08:07:09 <Diablo-D3> you'd just use some shitty website if it wasnt important
1000 2010-12-16 08:07:24 <Phoebus> ?
1001 2010-12-16 08:07:48 <Phoebus> I fail to follow, context?
1002 2010-12-16 08:08:04 <Diablo-D3> its called a "poll", Phoebus
1003 2010-12-16 08:08:38 <Phoebus> Right, I know about polls, but how do you verify that it hasn't been tampered?
1004 2010-12-16 08:08:51 <Diablo-D3> if its not important, no one will tamper with it
1005 2010-12-16 08:09:14 joe_1 has joined
1006 2010-12-16 08:11:02 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1007 2010-12-16 08:11:18 AAA_awright has joined
1008 2010-12-16 08:12:38 <Phoebus> I'm thinking about a distributed decision making system, helping communities/municipalities involve their people in town/community issues.
1009 2010-12-16 08:12:59 <Phoebus> Without validation, it won't have any power - it becomes "important" by default.
1010 2010-12-16 08:15:38 <joe_1> what would be an example of a decision it would make?
1011 2010-12-16 08:16:58 <MT`AwAy> ( http://xkcd.com/834/ <- not related to bitcoins, but related to anonymous/wikileaks, and funny )
1012 2010-12-16 08:17:24 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: so the guys with the more cpu gets more decision power?
1013 2010-12-16 08:17:36 asdf30 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1014 2010-12-16 08:17:44 <MT`AwAy> (they could include stuff in blocks)
1015 2010-12-16 08:17:45 <Phoebus> Uhh no. But they verify the integrity of the votes.
1016 2010-12-16 08:18:04 <Phoebus> I wouldn't make it as cpu intensive.
1017 2010-12-16 08:18:37 <Granttt> But why, if you vote on something. That alone assumes something is going to be centralized, then why decentralize the voting itself ?
1018 2010-12-16 08:18:38 <da2ce7> yeah I worked it out, I beleve it is approx 376% p.a.
1019 2010-12-16 08:18:40 <Phoebus> The biggest problem is assigning one hash per person/citizen. But I guess a municipality could easily solve that by handing one out in person after ID.
1020 2010-12-16 08:18:45 Azetab has quit ()
1021 2010-12-16 08:19:13 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: that's assuming there is a democracy somewhere ready to give the ability to vote to their citizens
1022 2010-12-16 08:19:28 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, smaller towns could use this, communities.
1023 2010-12-16 08:19:34 <Phoebus> You don't need top-down power.
1024 2010-12-16 08:19:44 <Phoebus> Make it easy enough to use and set-up.
1025 2010-12-16 08:20:18 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: I think smaller towns and stuff can only use legally approved vote methods
1026 2010-12-16 08:20:22 <joe_1> the trouble is that democracy is flawed
1027 2010-12-16 08:20:34 <Phoebus> Not really, mayors have a lot of power.
1028 2010-12-16 08:20:44 <Phoebus> Depending on the country of course, I have no idea where you're from.
1029 2010-12-16 08:20:54 <Phoebus> You could just implement that locally, until it catches on.
1030 2010-12-16 08:21:00 <Phoebus> Or just for citizen in a town.
1031 2010-12-16 08:21:01 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: also, your concept is assuming every single citizen has a computer
1032 2010-12-16 08:21:07 <MT`AwAy> or access to a computer
1033 2010-12-16 08:21:08 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1034 2010-12-16 08:21:11 <Phoebus> Every citizen needs a hash.
1035 2010-12-16 08:21:17 <Phoebus> They can use the library or kiosks.
1036 2010-12-16 08:21:24 <MT`AwAy> in small towns? :D
1037 2010-12-16 08:21:31 <Phoebus> Yeah.
1038 2010-12-16 08:21:38 <Phoebus> Where are you from?
1039 2010-12-16 08:21:42 <MT`AwAy> in the town next to my grand mother house, there was not even a school
1040 2010-12-16 08:21:44 <Phoebus> What are your small towns like? :P
1041 2010-12-16 08:21:53 <da2ce7> *scrap what I said, all wrong.
1042 2010-12-16 08:22:10 <MT`AwAy> it's was a 61 ppl town, with a mayor (same for 25 years) and most people are over 70, and unable to use computers
1043 2010-12-16 08:22:13 <joe_1> where are u from phoebus
1044 2010-12-16 08:22:22 <Phoebus> Anyway, it's void, think of communities, they could be in a huge city, or a small town, or anywhere.
1045 2010-12-16 08:22:28 <Phoebus> I'm from Greece.
1046 2010-12-16 08:22:32 sgornick has joined
1047 2010-12-16 08:22:35 <Phoebus> Our small towns have internet cafes, and libraries.
1048 2010-12-16 08:22:39 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: I think you need to read the bitcoin papers first
1049 2010-12-16 08:22:48 <Phoebus> With public terminals, and it's not a rich country even :P
1050 2010-12-16 08:22:53 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, I have.
1051 2010-12-16 08:22:54 <MT`AwAy> talking about a bitcoin-based system that "would not be as much cpu intensive" is nonsense
1052 2010-12-16 08:23:19 <Phoebus> Why is everyone here so argumentative and non-collaborative?
1053 2010-12-16 08:23:25 <Phoebus> I'm just talking about an idea, chill :P
1054 2010-12-16 08:23:37 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: I'm pointing out the obvious
1055 2010-12-16 08:23:50 <Phoebus> It's not obvious, nor relevant at this stage.
1056 2010-12-16 08:23:51 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: make a document (on a wiki or a html page) argumenting the pro and cons of your idea
1057 2010-12-16 08:23:54 <Phoebus> Anyway, nvm :P
1058 2010-12-16 08:24:02 <MT`AwAy> then we'll argument
1059 2010-12-16 08:24:21 <Phoebus> So, where are you from then?
1060 2010-12-16 08:24:32 <Phoebus> And you mean, present arguments, or argue :P
1061 2010-12-16 08:24:35 <MT`AwAy> I live in Japan now, and I'm from France
1062 2010-12-16 08:24:45 <Phoebus> Ok.
1063 2010-12-16 08:25:25 <MT`AwAy> here in Japan citizens get IC cards to declare their taxes, but most are afraid of computers and don't want to touch one (even through they use cell phone all day, and their tax input is scanned by a computer after being submitted)
1064 2010-12-16 08:28:13 Myckel has joined
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1066 2010-12-16 08:28:49 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: anyway your system should allow input from people who cannot or do not want to use computers
1067 2010-12-16 08:29:19 <MT`AwAy> also it shouldn't be possible for anyone to know what each people have voted (ie. changing people's hash after each vote for example)
1068 2010-12-16 08:29:27 <da2ce7> The correct current rate of monatry inflation is 37% p.a. since the value of bitcoin isn't falling, it is safe to say the bitcoin economy is growing at least 37% p.a.
1069 2010-12-16 08:29:31 <Phoebus> How does bitcoin account for this? :P Or I guess it's only for computer users.
1070 2010-12-16 08:29:44 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: it generates tons of addresses
1071 2010-12-16 08:30:04 <da2ce7> the rate is going to be arround 25% in one years time.
1072 2010-12-16 08:31:00 <joe_1> phoebus: it doesn't account for it
1073 2010-12-16 08:31:04 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: if you've read bitcoin source/docs/etc, you should know for example that on first run when creating wallet.dat, bitcoin pre-creates 100 addresses, and show them as needed (pressed "new address", received funds, etc)
1074 2010-12-16 08:31:12 <joe_1> non-computer users cannot participate in bitcoin
1075 2010-12-16 08:31:16 <joe_1> without a liaison
1076 2010-12-16 08:31:43 <MT`AwAy> oh, thought you were talking about the "being anonymous" part :p
1077 2010-12-16 08:31:45 <Phoebus> Yeah... unless you generalize to phones.
1078 2010-12-16 08:32:02 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: regular phones too then
1079 2010-12-16 08:32:27 <Phoebus> Yeah.
1080 2010-12-16 08:32:40 <MT`AwAy> but regular phones are lacking any encryption
1081 2010-12-16 08:32:47 <da2ce7> when the generation changes from 50BTC per block to 25BTC the instanious inflation rate will change from 17.5% to 8.7%
1082 2010-12-16 08:32:48 <Phoebus> Use a pbx system, get people to identify, but one could easily fake ID.
1083 2010-12-16 08:32:58 <Phoebus> Well, depends on how a person has "signed up".
1084 2010-12-16 08:33:12 <Phoebus> I'd go with what banks use to do phone banking for now.
1085 2010-12-16 08:33:42 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: or leave people the ability to have their good old "I put a paper in a box" voting method
1086 2010-12-16 08:33:44 <Phoebus> I could setup and program an asterisk server to do this, would be fun.
1087 2010-12-16 08:33:51 <Phoebus> But then that server is a weakpoint.
1088 2010-12-16 08:34:03 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: and the gateway you use to receive calls to
1089 2010-12-16 08:34:07 <MT`AwAy> and the gateway used by your gateway
1090 2010-12-16 08:34:10 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, people don't do that if say you want to have regular votes for town issues.
1091 2010-12-16 08:34:12 <MT`AwAy> and all the providers on the line
1092 2010-12-16 08:34:13 <Phoebus> Or community issues.
1093 2010-12-16 08:34:14 <joe_1> can anyone give me a good anonymous socks proxy? i need to cuss out the wikipedia admin on the bitcoin talk page that originally deleted the bitcoin article.
1094 2010-12-16 08:34:19 <Phoebus> Instead of voting once every 4 years :P
1095 2010-12-16 08:34:23 <Phoebus> Paper voting is so cumbersome.
1096 2010-12-16 08:34:40 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: people trust paper voting
1097 2010-12-16 08:34:45 <Phoebus> A free of charge phone call instead would be easy.
1098 2010-12-16 08:34:47 <MT`AwAy> look at american voting machines, for example
1099 2010-12-16 08:34:53 <Phoebus> Yeah but paper voting is also faked.
1100 2010-12-16 08:35:04 <Phoebus> Who knows better? Have you ever checked a polling station?
1101 2010-12-16 08:36:44 amiga4000 is now known as Amiga4000
1102 2010-12-16 08:37:25 <da2ce7> it will take almost 17 years until the monetry inflation drops below 1%
1103 2010-12-16 08:38:47 <MT`AwAy> unless rules are changed by then
1104 2010-12-16 08:40:37 <Phoebus> Yeah, sure. But the benefit of an open source solution, and starting small/grass roots is that you can improve it a lot by the time someone decides to use it for large scale votes.
1105 2010-12-16 08:41:31 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: and one last thing you'll have to fight: virus and such
1106 2010-12-16 08:41:57 <Phoebus> MT`AwAy, so, since you're familiar with bitcoin, how does it fight tampering now?
1107 2010-12-16 08:42:04 <MT`AwAy> ie, if the system is used in such a way, someone voting in a library may have his private key stolen
1108 2010-12-16 08:42:14 StrangeCharm has joined
1109 2010-12-16 08:42:34 <MT`AwAy> Phoebus: transactions are signed with private keys (wallet.dat), and if your wallet.dat file is stolen, it's equivalent to having all your money stolen
1110 2010-12-16 08:42:45 <Phoebus> Yeah, which is scary :P
1111 2010-12-16 08:42:54 <Phoebus> But it's early in the implementation.
1112 2010-12-16 08:43:02 <MT`AwAy> not so much if you limit the amount of money in your wallet.dat
1113 2010-12-16 08:43:33 <MT`AwAy> for now there are not many alternatives but I'm sure it'll come
1114 2010-12-16 08:43:40 <Phoebus> Yeah.
1115 2010-12-16 08:43:46 <Phoebus> It'd be nice to see something like bitvote.
1116 2010-12-16 08:44:03 <Phoebus> And tools to get communities together to decide for themselves.
1117 2010-12-16 08:47:47 devon_hillard has joined
1118 2010-12-16 08:47:48 <Phoebus> 2517 years since the Athenian democracy. It was weak then, due to risks of demagogy, misinformation etc. But what matters is the intent. Today, we may finally have the tools to get this done.
1119 2010-12-16 08:47:58 <Phoebus> We have wikileaks, and maybe it'll catch on and grow.
1120 2010-12-16 08:48:00 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1121 2010-12-16 08:48:06 <Phoebus> It's a cornerstone for democracy maybe working.
1122 2010-12-16 08:48:09 <devon_hillard> has anyone built a bitcoin client for a modded ps3?
1123 2010-12-16 08:50:10 Abhish has joined
1124 2010-12-16 08:50:36 <Abhish> Is anybody using bitcoin yet?
1125 2010-12-16 08:50:49 <Granttt> Abhish: bitcoin, what's that ? ;)
1126 2010-12-16 08:50:54 <donpdonp> never heard of it.
1127 2010-12-16 08:51:08 <Abhish> I mean, like any vendors accepting them as tender.
1128 2010-12-16 08:51:20 <Abhish> I think its a brilliant idea.
1129 2010-12-16 08:51:32 <MT`AwAy> vendors ?
1130 2010-12-16 08:51:34 <Phoebus> Abhish, go to the webby, click on the trade linky :P
1131 2010-12-16 08:51:42 <MT`AwAy> Abhish: you checked http://bitcoin.org/trade ?
1132 2010-12-16 08:51:45 <Phoebus> Abhish, you can also find more in the forums.
1133 2010-12-16 08:51:54 <Abhish> I'll look again... I must have mised it.
1134 2010-12-16 08:52:01 <donpdonp> Abhish: basically no.
1135 2010-12-16 08:54:05 <Abhish> Neat, Tale in the Desert accepts it.
1136 2010-12-16 08:54:59 <Abhish> I think it would be a good solution for OpenSim.
1137 2010-12-16 08:55:52 <Granttt> Abhish: indeed, im actually working on doing it on the maingrid aswell.
1138 2010-12-16 08:55:52 <Abhish> I think bitcoin could take off if an app was made for android.
1139 2010-12-16 08:55:59 <Abhish> Sweet.
1140 2010-12-16 08:56:15 <Abhish> It seems like the best solution for OpenSim et al.
1141 2010-12-16 08:56:16 <Granttt> would be sweet to see ppl abandong L$ currency, and have one that works all over
1142 2010-12-16 08:56:28 <Granttt> nods
1143 2010-12-16 08:56:31 <Abhish> The thing lacking in those platforms that LL provides is a secure currency.
1144 2010-12-16 08:57:14 <Abhish> The potential is fascinating.
1145 2010-12-16 08:58:25 <Abhish> You may want to contact KirstenLee Cinquetti on the maingrid. S/he is the developer of a major 3rd party viewer. Also works on opensim.
1146 2010-12-16 08:58:39 <da2ce7> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8202745/WikiLeaks-Swedish-government-hid-anti-terror-operations-with-America-from-Parliament.html]
1147 2010-12-16 08:58:48 <da2ce7> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8202745/WikiLeaks-Swedish-government-hid-anti-terror-operations-with-America-from-Parliament.html
1148 2010-12-16 09:07:34 TD[away] is now known as TD
1149 2010-12-16 09:08:35 nova has joined
1150 2010-12-16 09:15:16 Abhish has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1151 2010-12-16 09:19:11 slush_cz has joined
1152 2010-12-16 09:20:18 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1153 2010-12-16 09:23:14 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1154 2010-12-16 09:26:33 ebel has joined
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1156 2010-12-16 09:30:23 <MT`AwAy> where was the bitcoin logo thread?
1157 2010-12-16 09:32:23 RazielZ has joined
1158 2010-12-16 09:32:49 <MT`AwAy> mh, found it
1159 2010-12-16 09:32:53 <MT`AwAy> but I don't have adobe illustrator :(
1160 2010-12-16 09:36:39 <Amiga4000> no other free software possible?
1161 2010-12-16 09:37:09 <Amiga4000> inkscape e.g.?
1162 2010-12-16 09:55:11 <MT`AwAy> Amiga4000: I don't think inscape opens .ai files
1163 2010-12-16 09:58:33 dwdollar has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1164 2010-12-16 10:00:48 <Amiga4000> http://weblogs.asp.net/jgalloway/archive/2008/02/24/opening-adobe-illustrator-ai-files-when-you-don-t-have-adobe-illustrator.aspx ?
1165 2010-12-16 10:01:17 <Amiga4000> Inkscape's recent builds can import and export a large variety of vector and bitmap formats, including AI and PDF.
1166 2010-12-16 10:01:19 <doublec> from poker forum: disclaimer: I currently own a large sum of bitcoins (>1% produced) and have dedicated mining machines.
1167 2010-12-16 10:01:31 <doublec> ok, fess up, who is the closet poker player ;)
1168 2010-12-16 10:09:33 dwdollar has joined
1169 2010-12-16 10:09:34 <MT`AwAy> Amiga4000: I just used a less-nice logo which was available as transparent png
1170 2010-12-16 10:09:57 <Diablo-D3> lol transpng
1171 2010-12-16 10:10:04 <Diablo-D3> this is where I come in and make fun of MSIE
1172 2010-12-16 10:10:11 <Diablo-D3> lets all laugh at MSIE
1173 2010-12-16 10:10:13 * Diablo-D3 lols
1174 2010-12-16 10:10:48 <Amiga4000> Diablo-D3: btw, your miner has some issues. did not get it run on win 64 nvidia and linux amd64 nvidia headless
1175 2010-12-16 10:10:53 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: don't make fun of IE >:[ IE6 supports 8bits transparent png!!1!!
1176 2010-12-16 10:11:16 <Amiga4000> I guess it needs nvidia beta driver on windows, but those are not a option for me
1177 2010-12-16 10:11:22 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: did you forget to set DISPLAY first?
1178 2010-12-16 10:11:42 foobar_ has joined
1179 2010-12-16 10:12:41 <Amiga4000> could be, but I can test
1180 2010-12-16 10:13:46 <Diablo-D3> lwjgl is weird headless
1181 2010-12-16 10:14:23 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: you need to do export DISPLAY=:0 and then run it
1182 2010-12-16 10:14:29 <Diablo-D3> and have X running even if you're headless
1183 2010-12-16 10:15:10 <Amiga4000> uh, thats a point
1184 2010-12-16 10:15:24 <MT`AwAy> isn't it
1185 2010-12-16 10:15:50 <MT`AwAy> btw Diablo-D3 is it possible to keep X usable when your miner is working? XD
1186 2010-12-16 10:15:54 <Diablo-D3> yes
1187 2010-12-16 10:15:58 <Diablo-D3> use -f 120
1188 2010-12-16 10:16:04 <Diablo-D3> and keep adding 60 until you reach usable
1189 2010-12-16 10:16:21 <MT`AwAy> oh
1190 2010-12-16 10:20:49 <da2ce7> I find that I need to use -f 256 :P
1191 2010-12-16 10:21:05 <da2ce7> I only put it on the first GPU, the second remains at 60
1192 2010-12-16 10:22:38 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: should be a multiple of your refresh rate
1193 2010-12-16 10:23:18 <da2ce7> y so? Dose it matter if it isn't? I just kept on upping the nuber untill nothing lagged.
1194 2010-12-16 10:23:35 <Diablo-D3> it kind of does
1195 2010-12-16 10:25:11 <da2ce7> I get arround 20M less rate on that card... so maybe a bit.
1196 2010-12-16 10:26:26 <Diablo-D3> turning -f up slows it down
1197 2010-12-16 10:26:29 <Diablo-D3> try using -f 240
1198 2010-12-16 10:30:10 foobar_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1199 2010-12-16 10:33:23 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1200 2010-12-16 10:34:38 <da2ce7> yeah, changed my script, net load, i'll use 240.
1201 2010-12-16 10:35:37 <da2ce7> just tryed it, way more laggy, gained 7M
1202 2010-12-16 10:37:22 <da2ce7> yeah, it is pritty smooth at 256, 240 not so goo.
1203 2010-12-16 10:39:26 altamic has joined
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1209 2010-12-16 10:51:07 <ByteCoin> MT'AwAy: You here?
1210 2010-12-16 10:52:32 <ByteCoin> Does anyone know whether he has an account on the forum? I can't see a user called MTAwAy...
1211 2010-12-16 10:53:08 <Diablo-D3> ByteCoin: probably magicaltux
1212 2010-12-16 10:53:18 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, it's MagicalTux
1213 2010-12-16 10:53:43 darrob has joined
1214 2010-12-16 10:53:48 altamic has joined
1215 2010-12-16 10:53:50 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, why that?
1216 2010-12-16 10:54:02 <ByteCoin> Ok. Thx. I hear you're working on a client and wanted to understand ECC stuff
1217 2010-12-16 10:54:10 <MT`AwAy> :D
1218 2010-12-16 10:54:34 <MT`AwAy> I had a problem because the ECC implementation I was planning to use only support curves where a=-3
1219 2010-12-16 10:54:43 <MT`AwAy> while bitcoin uses a curve with a=0
1220 2010-12-16 10:55:07 <xelister> MT`AwAy: no
1221 2010-12-16 10:55:08 <MT`AwAy> any help modifying this ECC implementation would be welcome :p
1222 2010-12-16 10:55:14 <ByteCoin> ECC is actually rather simple. You don't need to use any libraries if you don't want
1223 2010-12-16 10:55:16 <ByteCoin> #
1224 2010-12-16 10:55:30 <xelister> MT`AwAy: Diablo's miner sucks.... no, not donkey cocks, but: all the power out of GFX, making any X activity useless
1225 2010-12-16 10:55:36 <xelister> MT`AwAy: -f does not help
1226 2010-12-16 10:55:51 <Diablo-D3> xel is a liar
1227 2010-12-16 10:55:59 <Diablo-D3> hes just pissed I wont impl his stupid ideas
1228 2010-12-16 10:56:11 <xelister> I also payed Diablo-D3's sister after the blow job.. oh wait, indeed I am a lier here :{
1229 2010-12-16 10:56:13 <ByteCoin> What language are you using for your client? I have some ECC stuff in c# I wrote
1230 2010-12-16 10:56:13 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, ECC seems to at least require a bignum lib
1231 2010-12-16 10:56:22 <xelister> anyway, MT`AwAy: first of all, use SDK 2.1, any other will use 100% cpu
1232 2010-12-16 10:56:25 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, C
1233 2010-12-16 10:56:31 <Diablo-D3> yes what xel said
1234 2010-12-16 10:56:34 <Diablo-D3> you MUST use sdk 2.1
1235 2010-12-16 10:56:40 <xelister> yes, also its true what I said about sdk 2.1
1236 2010-12-16 10:56:42 <Diablo-D3> no matter what hardware or os or anything
1237 2010-12-16 10:56:43 <xelister> <_<
1238 2010-12-16 10:57:08 <ArtForz> and if you have a radeon 6xxx, you're fucked
1239 2010-12-16 10:57:17 <ByteCoin> MT: Well since we're only using 256bit ECC you could use a struct of 16 32bit unsigneds
1240 2010-12-16 10:57:20 <xelister> next, -f 3000 still can make X totally laggy as shit, esp when using some KDE/QT aps, or flash, etc
1241 2010-12-16 10:57:31 <Diablo-D3> QT is severely broken
1242 2010-12-16 10:57:33 <xelister> in such event, PERHAPS using smaller -w will work. or perhaps nothing will help, depends
1243 2010-12-16 10:57:35 <Diablo-D3> Im not surprised at all
1244 2010-12-16 10:57:37 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, tell me how I multiply a point in simple words and I'll be happy
1245 2010-12-16 10:57:38 <ArtForz> 68xx needs sdk 2.2, 69xx sdk 2.3
1246 2010-12-16 10:57:43 <Diablo-D3> smaller -w makes it run faster
1247 2010-12-16 10:57:50 <Diablo-D3> -w 64 is optimum it seems
1248 2010-12-16 10:57:51 <ByteCoin> MT: Are you going to release the source?
1249 2010-12-16 10:57:57 <xelister> ArtForz: anyway 6xxx < 5xxx for mining
1250 2010-12-16 10:58:02 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, yep
1251 2010-12-16 10:58:16 <ArtForz> yep
1252 2010-12-16 10:58:24 <xelister> Diablo-D3: we need some stronger limiting then -f
1253 2010-12-16 10:58:37 <ArtForz> but 69xx is pretty great for 3D
1254 2010-12-16 10:58:48 <xelister> Diablo-D3: like throlling, to say 90% of GPU. and then, detect X activity and throll on it
1255 2010-12-16 10:59:01 <Diablo-D3> thats retarded, nor is there anything like that in the opencl spec
1256 2010-12-16 10:59:04 <Diablo-D3> just keep turning -f up
1257 2010-12-16 10:59:08 <MT`AwAy> throlling is a variant of trolling? :D
1258 2010-12-16 10:59:19 <xelister> MT`AwAy: yes, thats why nv and ati do it
1259 2010-12-16 10:59:27 <Diablo-D3> can we get xelister kickbanned?
1260 2010-12-16 10:59:27 <ByteCoin> Ok let me just look it up...
1261 2010-12-16 10:59:36 <xelister> again, even -f 3000 still does not guranatee smooth 3000 FPS, or even 30 FPS, operation of X applications
1262 2010-12-16 10:59:50 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, if you get something could you post it on bitcoin.in ?
1263 2010-12-16 10:59:57 <ArtForz> because X apps dont have constant message rates
1264 2010-12-16 11:00:08 <Diablo-D3> because QT is a pile of shit that doesnt work right
1265 2010-12-16 11:00:10 <Diablo-D3> gtk apps have zero issues
1266 2010-12-16 11:00:13 <Diablo-D3> and flash works fine
1267 2010-12-16 11:00:17 <xelister> Diablo-D3: and users will think
1268 2010-12-16 11:00:30 <Diablo-D3> xelister: I cant fix broken software that isnt even related to mine
1269 2010-12-16 11:00:39 <xelister> 1) oh right QT is pile of shit, sorry for that. Diablo is so smart for pointing it out. I don't care that my X is shit and useless
1270 2010-12-16 11:00:40 <xelister> or
1271 2010-12-16 11:00:43 <MT`AwAy> [19:58:49] <xelister> Diablo-D3: and users will think <- I have a doubt here
1272 2010-12-16 11:00:48 <xelister> 2) oh fuck this I cant use X while mining with this crap
1273 2010-12-16 11:00:50 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: I agree
1274 2010-12-16 11:00:53 <xelister> I bet most users will say 2)
1275 2010-12-16 11:00:58 <Diablo-D3> most users can fuck off.
1276 2010-12-16 11:01:06 <Diablo-D3> its open source, if they dont like it, they can STOP USING QT
1277 2010-12-16 11:01:13 <Diablo-D3> use xfce like any sane motherfucker
1278 2010-12-16 11:01:23 <xelister> yea that is the attitide behind your miner - most users can fuck off ;) Now, my goals are different here
1279 2010-12-16 11:01:28 <ArtForz> so it's the miners fault that flash is completely sucking down X performance?
1280 2010-12-16 11:01:32 <ByteCoin> MT: What is bitcoin.in and who controls it?
1281 2010-12-16 11:01:59 <xelister> ArtForz: every day users do not give a flying fuck who's fault it is, they want their to perform and that is all
1282 2010-12-16 11:02:06 <xelister> *their X
1283 2010-12-16 11:02:18 <ArtForz> thats why sane people dont run flash on linux
1284 2010-12-16 11:02:31 <xelister> actually every day users want their windows to perform. Btw, anyone using diablo's miner on winshit?
1285 2010-12-16 11:02:43 <Diablo-D3> everyday users DONT RUN LINUX
1286 2010-12-16 11:02:45 <Amiga4000> flash is bad (t)
1287 2010-12-16 11:03:12 <xelister> ArtForz: oh ok then mr Stallman, so how exactly I'm supposed to watch the megavideo and youtube movies that I want to watch?
1288 2010-12-16 11:03:23 <MT`AwAy> Amiga4000: don't say that, I love playing flash games on facebook all day long
1289 2010-12-16 11:03:34 <Amiga4000> facebook is bad, to
1290 2010-12-16 11:03:39 <xelister> sure flash is bad, but megavideo is ok
1291 2010-12-16 11:03:42 <ArtForz> *shrug*, mplayer seems to work fine
1292 2010-12-16 11:03:45 <MT`AwAy> xelister: personally I use youtube-dl + mplayer
1293 2010-12-16 11:03:49 <Amiga4000> and flash is redundant, html5, .NET....
1294 2010-12-16 11:03:52 <ArtForz> yep
1295 2010-12-16 11:03:56 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: why bring up .net?
1296 2010-12-16 11:04:03 <Diablo-D3> html5 is all anyone needs.
1297 2010-12-16 11:04:06 <xelister> mplayer for megavideo? ok, that sounds intereseting... how eactly, huh?
1298 2010-12-16 11:04:19 <Diablo-D3> I think youtube-dl does megavideo now
1299 2010-12-16 11:04:19 <Amiga4000> afaik html5 does not yet implement 3d xml
1300 2010-12-16 11:04:22 <zygf> Amiga4000: silverlight is bad, mmkay? :P
1301 2010-12-16 11:04:25 <ArtForz> no clue, I use my own youtube-dl clone + mplayer for youtube
1302 2010-12-16 11:04:25 <xelister> btw, yea, html5 will be an option hopefully one day. Wonder what about megavideo
1303 2010-12-16 11:04:27 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: xml? no, but js, yes.
1304 2010-12-16 11:04:33 <xelister> ArtForz: and megavideo?
1305 2010-12-16 11:05:00 <ArtForz> I dont use megavideo
1306 2010-12-16 11:05:17 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: silverlie is dead.
1307 2010-12-16 11:05:44 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: moonlie is not complete and cant run most silverlie sites, and microsoft is basically abandoning silverlie altogether
1308 2010-12-16 11:05:49 <xelister> silvershit
1309 2010-12-16 11:05:53 <Diablo-D3> silverlie.
1310 2010-12-16 11:05:56 <xelister> silvershit
1311 2010-12-16 11:05:58 <Diablo-D3> silverlie.
1312 2010-12-16 11:06:00 <Amiga4000> oh, silverlight is revived with win7 on mobiles
1313 2010-12-16 11:06:02 <xelister> silvershiiit mother fucker. do you use it
1314 2010-12-16 11:06:08 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: but win phone 7 is dead.
1315 2010-12-16 11:06:13 <Diablo-D3> xelister: silver LIE
1316 2010-12-16 11:06:16 <zygf> it's not as dead as it should be, doesn't netflix use it?
1317 2010-12-16 11:06:18 <Diablo-D3> xelister: as opposed to light
1318 2010-12-16 11:06:22 <Diablo-D3> xelister: my insult is superior!
1319 2010-12-16 11:06:23 <Amiga4000> sure, we will see how dead it is in 2 years.
1320 2010-12-16 11:06:26 <xelister> I wish win7 team devels would be dead
1321 2010-12-16 11:06:30 <ArtForz> but I dont see why implementing something like youtube-dl for megavideo should be much of a problem
1322 2010-12-16 11:06:36 <xelister> we should setup windows/flash devels car race or smth
1323 2010-12-16 11:06:37 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: they will sell about 538 phones.
1324 2010-12-16 11:06:42 <Amiga4000> a lot of soft projects are already on .net
1325 2010-12-16 11:06:48 <Amiga4000> it will not die.
1326 2010-12-16 11:06:56 <Diablo-D3> what projects?
1327 2010-12-16 11:06:56 <MT`AwAy> unfortunately :(
1328 2010-12-16 11:06:59 <Diablo-D3> .net never went into enterprise
1329 2010-12-16 11:07:05 <Diablo-D3> java is the ONLY thing you find in enterprise
1330 2010-12-16 11:07:08 digger3 has joined
1331 2010-12-16 11:07:13 <Diablo-D3> why would anyone downgrade to a lesser version of java, ultimately?
1332 2010-12-16 11:07:28 <zygf> Diablo-D3: I'm not sure you're aware of how many asp.net jobs there are
1333 2010-12-16 11:07:41 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: I had a bank provide a .NET api
1334 2010-12-16 11:07:49 <digger3> zygf: stop scaring me
1335 2010-12-16 11:07:55 <MT`AwAy> (I asked we stop working with them)
1336 2010-12-16 11:08:02 <Diablo-D3> zygf: they were generated out of asp jobs, pre .net
1337 2010-12-16 11:08:10 <Diablo-D3> zygf: it doesnt really make them actual .net jobs
1338 2010-12-16 11:08:26 <Diablo-D3> a lot of companies run legacy shit that they're slowly trying to update without scrappingit
1339 2010-12-16 11:08:31 <Diablo-D3> I have no clue why
1340 2010-12-16 11:08:53 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: how is a .net api useful? should be xml or json over soap or rest.
1341 2010-12-16 11:09:04 <zygf> umm, no, there are tons of young companies using asp.net
1342 2010-12-16 11:09:27 <Diablo-D3> zygf: yes, lots of companies that will go bankrupt.
1343 2010-12-16 11:09:30 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: they require us to use .NET, just like they do (usually banks do that with java, and force us to use it)
1344 2010-12-16 11:09:34 <Amiga4000> an dlots of dev /university are doing .NET - which will be in production in a few years
1345 2010-12-16 11:09:37 <Diablo-D3> not really much of a job if you're just going to get laid off.
1346 2010-12-16 11:09:39 <MT`AwAy> well, banking is a special world
1347 2010-12-16 11:09:47 <Amiga4000> oph, Diablo-D3 is our crytal ball telling our futrure. great.
1348 2010-12-16 11:09:49 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: only because microsoft paid the universities to teach a useless language
1349 2010-12-16 11:10:03 <Amiga4000> yeah, ms pays the complete uni
1350 2010-12-16 11:10:04 <Diablo-D3> .net has no future.
1351 2010-12-16 11:10:10 <Amiga4000> no, they decide for the best way
1352 2010-12-16 11:10:25 <Amiga4000> and .NET is a good way. beside java and C(++)
1353 2010-12-16 11:10:25 <zygf> companies don't use asp.net because they have legacy asp sites, but because m$ has a brand and a pretty big ecosystem around .net
1354 2010-12-16 11:10:32 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: man, what educational institution did _you_ go to
1355 2010-12-16 11:10:36 Toadyonps3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1356 2010-12-16 11:10:47 <Amiga4000> Diablo-D3: at least I can tell ~30 european ones.
1357 2010-12-16 11:10:53 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: universities often do what companies pay them under the table to do.
1358 2010-12-16 11:10:55 <Amiga4000> or some more
1359 2010-12-16 11:11:12 <Amiga4000> Diablo-D3: you shoul dopen a site like Wikileaks and distribute your secret knowledge
1360 2010-12-16 11:11:14 <Diablo-D3> .net has no future.
1361 2010-12-16 11:11:30 <Amiga4000> as it does not correlate with the reality I know
1362 2010-12-16 11:11:33 <zygf> sure, don't let facts get in your way
1363 2010-12-16 11:11:44 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: this is secret now? the DoJ and the EU both sued the shit out of Microsoft for monopolistic practices.
1364 2010-12-16 11:11:52 <Diablo-D3> where were you?
1365 2010-12-16 11:12:00 <devon_hillard> http://pastecoin.com/download.php?file=103
1366 2010-12-16 11:12:12 <Amiga4000> yikes, That was about including IE into Windows XP
1367 2010-12-16 11:12:24 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: it was actually larger than that
1368 2010-12-16 11:12:29 <devon_hillard> world submarine data cable map ^^
1369 2010-12-16 11:12:36 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: EU was mainly about IE in XP
1370 2010-12-16 11:12:40 <Diablo-D3> the DoJ case was much larger
1371 2010-12-16 11:12:57 <Amiga4000> and thats why .NET will fail? because of IE 8 into XP?
1372 2010-12-16 11:13:10 <Diablo-D3> no, .net will fail because no one cares about a java rip off
1373 2010-12-16 11:13:30 <Amiga4000> I do not say MS is all good and best. All I say: they do a good job with .NEt and thats good to use.
1374 2010-12-16 11:13:38 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: tell me one thing .net has that java doesnt.
1375 2010-12-16 11:13:44 <zygf> if you haven't noticed there's a gigantic community around .net, both commercial and open source (codeplex)
1376 2010-12-16 11:13:51 <Amiga4000> and tell you: your "no one" does not include lots of university and companies around europe
1377 2010-12-16 11:13:58 <Diablo-D3> .net has no open source version. .net has no linux community. .net doesnt work on solaris.
1378 2010-12-16 11:14:07 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: what is mono ?
1379 2010-12-16 11:14:07 <Diablo-D3> .net has very poor browser support
1380 2010-12-16 11:14:09 <Amiga4000> WTF does care about linux?
1381 2010-12-16 11:14:15 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: not actually open source
1382 2010-12-16 11:14:19 <Amiga4000> linux is just something beside all other
1383 2010-12-16 11:14:29 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: it didn't stop projects such as pidgin to use it
1384 2010-12-16 11:14:38 <Diablo-D3> due to the swpat problem and the license mono chose does not protect people from being protected from the swpats, its closed source.
1385 2010-12-16 11:14:39 <Amiga4000> and companies/enterprise does not care about linux at all
1386 2010-12-16 11:14:51 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: pidgin is not c#.
1387 2010-12-16 11:14:57 <zygf> you're mixing patents and copyrights
1388 2010-12-16 11:15:00 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: pidgin supports c# plugins
1389 2010-12-16 11:15:01 <Amiga4000> if you want enterprise, you want support. and with support it does not care if you use win or linux. Really.
1390 2010-12-16 11:15:05 <MT`AwAy> in fact most pidgin plugins are in c#
1391 2010-12-16 11:15:29 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: yet Ive been using pidgin since long before it was called pidgin, yet I have no mono installed.
1392 2010-12-16 11:15:33 <Amiga4000> any tool without a support contract is useless in enterprise.
1393 2010-12-16 11:15:52 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: yet now that novell is dead, you cannot buy mono support contracts from them
1394 2010-12-16 11:16:04 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: I've been using gaim too, and I was worried the first time I saw "mono" appear in the USE flags
1395 2010-12-16 11:16:05 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: oh, and how does linux not have support contracts? redhat has been selling them for a decade.
1396 2010-12-16 11:16:06 <Amiga4000> novell is dead, sure. but a few users still use it.
1397 2010-12-16 11:16:14 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: sounds like gentoo braindamage.
1398 2010-12-16 11:16:22 <Amiga4000> but novell.. no one use it anymore
1399 2010-12-16 11:16:25 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: no, mono is for pidgin
1400 2010-12-16 11:16:36 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: except I use pidgin and do not have mono installed
1401 2010-12-16 11:16:37 <MT`AwAy> http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/MonoLoader
1402 2010-12-16 11:16:45 <Diablo-D3> so Im not particularly interested in what gentoo did.
1403 2010-12-16 11:16:49 <digger3> xelister: I'm a bit confused about the broadcasting of transactions to the network and the criteria for nodes to accept it for the current block especially in high-latency situations
1404 2010-12-16 11:16:51 <Amiga4000> and right, red hat sells Linux support, but it is not cheaper than windows. and why choose something unknown?
1405 2010-12-16 11:17:01 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: it's an *option*
1406 2010-12-16 11:17:07 <MT`AwAy> which gives access to plugins
1407 2010-12-16 11:17:08 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: windows IS unknown. its closed source. no one runs it in the enterprise.
1408 2010-12-16 11:17:15 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: how can anyone security audit closed source software?
1409 2010-12-16 11:17:21 <Amiga4000> in an option of linux or windows for same cost, they choose windows, as everyone has it. and it is known.
1410 2010-12-16 11:17:31 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: answer the question.
1411 2010-12-16 11:17:38 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: windows IS unknown, yet governements use it
1412 2010-12-16 11:17:40 <Diablo-D3> windows is not allowed in most companies expressly for that reason.
1413 2010-12-16 11:17:43 <Amiga4000> windows source can be audi by companies on request.
1414 2010-12-16 11:17:52 <Amiga4000> audit.
1415 2010-12-16 11:17:56 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: the US Government does not allow Windows to be used on the Federal level.
1416 2010-12-16 11:18:07 <Amiga4000> it is not really unknown, it is just not open source
1417 2010-12-16 11:18:07 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: nope, not really.
1418 2010-12-16 11:18:31 <da2ce7> I have no issue with asp.net MVC, it is webforms that sucks ass
1419 2010-12-16 11:18:36 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: also, I'd like you to explain how linux costs more?
1420 2010-12-16 11:18:42 <MT`AwAy> this channel smells too much like troll, I'll go back to my code
1421 2010-12-16 11:18:44 <MT`AwAy> :D
1422 2010-12-16 11:18:47 <Amiga4000> Diablo-D3: support. support does cost.
1423 2010-12-16 11:18:52 <Diablo-D3> how does support cost?
1424 2010-12-16 11:19:07 <Diablo-D3> you have to have an IT staff no matter which way you go.
1425 2010-12-16 11:19:07 <Amiga4000> in long term, the money for license is just to miner to support.
1426 2010-12-16 11:19:26 <Amiga4000> yeah, the IT staff needs to be payed, to? OR are they out of cost?
1427 2010-12-16 11:19:37 <Diablo-D3> they are paid the same no matter what your OS is
1428 2010-12-16 11:19:38 <xelister> Diablo-D3: yeah bitcoin is rather for low quality
1429 2010-12-16 11:19:40 <xelister> guys
1430 2010-12-16 11:19:45 <Diablo-D3> so where is this mythical support cost?
1431 2010-12-16 11:19:47 <Amiga4000> yeah, but you need them to pay to learn linux
1432 2010-12-16 11:19:47 <xelister> digger3: yeah bitcoin is rather for low quality
1433 2010-12-16 11:19:55 <Amiga4000> as they do know windows. but not linux
1434 2010-12-16 11:19:57 <xelister> ------------------------------------------
1435 2010-12-16 11:19:59 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: no, you need to pay them to learn windows, they already know linux.
1436 2010-12-16 11:19:59 <xelister> ACTUALL BITCOIN TOPIC
1437 2010-12-16 11:20:00 <xelister> ------------------------------------------
1438 2010-12-16 11:20:03 <Amiga4000> which is why you pay more to learn linux.
1439 2010-12-16 11:20:11 <xelister> can bitcoin be fine in hight latency
1440 2010-12-16 11:20:13 <xelister> network
1441 2010-12-16 11:20:14 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: its rather hard to find sysadmins who already know windows.
1442 2010-12-16 11:20:14 <zygf> MT`AwAy: he's like a opposite universe random factoid generator
1443 2010-12-16 11:20:18 <xelister> like 1-3 minute latency
1444 2010-12-16 11:20:34 <Amiga4000> Diablo-D3: should we go around n enterprise and aks abotu knowledge of linux and windows interna? >90% windows.
1445 2010-12-16 11:20:37 <xelister> Diablo-D3: Amiga4000 MT`AwAy can we for a second get back to bitcoin the fuck
1446 2010-12-16 11:20:48 <digger3> xelister: but an increase in latency increases the probability of a transaction not ending up in the next block right?
1447 2010-12-16 11:20:53 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: so why do you continue to troll when you're wrong and everyone knows it?
1448 2010-12-16 11:21:05 <Diablo-D3> Amiga4000: I actually work in the industry, you don't; who are you trying to bullshit?
1449 2010-12-16 11:21:05 <Amiga4000> Diablo-D3: you just repeat yourself trolling.
1450 2010-12-16 11:21:07 <digger3> xelister: which would increase the transaction verification latency considerably
1451 2010-12-16 11:21:19 <xelister> digger3: Amiga4000 can you troll eachother a bit later
1452 2010-12-16 11:21:24 <xelister> digger3: the problem
1453 2010-12-16 11:21:31 <xelister> with high latency node2node communication
1454 2010-12-16 11:21:41 <xelister> is that every 10 minutes the target of blocks generation changes
1455 2010-12-16 11:22:12 <xelister> so say with 2 minute latency, you have like 20% (I think??) of chance that the work you done is invalid because someone was faster
1456 2010-12-16 11:22:13 <xelister> brb
1457 2010-12-16 11:25:07 <digger3> xelister: ok, and how is the target established according to the documentation it's a random number shared by all clients, but how does it change after 10 minutes?
1458 2010-12-16 11:27:46 <xelister> digger3: every 10 min new target/block is genrated/reached
1459 2010-12-16 11:28:09 <MT`AwAy> digger3: it's not random
1460 2010-12-16 11:28:16 <MT`AwAy> and it does not change every 10 minutes
1461 2010-12-16 11:28:20 <MT`AwAy> (but every 2016 blocks)
1462 2010-12-16 11:28:27 <da2ce7> the target is the dificulity.
1463 2010-12-16 11:28:54 <da2ce7> it tells the network what sort of charatisitics the hash generated must have.
1464 2010-12-16 11:31:13 <digger3> MT`AwAy: ah, ok, it's slowly starting to make sense to me
1465 2010-12-16 11:33:03 <digger3> the basic premise being that any adversary doesn't have much more computation power than the users. Although the worst thing that could happen is bitcoin inflation & additional transaction latency
1466 2010-12-16 11:35:14 Bitcoinz has joined
1467 2010-12-16 11:35:18 <da2ce7> The worst thing that could happen is if adversary gains more than 50% of the generation power for an extended ammout of time.
1468 2010-12-16 11:35:34 <digger3> ok, so block generation is probably uninteresting for freenet due to the latency involved I'd assume
1469 2010-12-16 11:36:01 <MT`AwAy> digger3: most likely
1470 2010-12-16 11:36:19 <da2ce7> the latency must be lower than 5min for more than half the blocks to be accepted, on average.
1471 2010-12-16 11:37:01 <da2ce7> transactions don't need to be a low latency, just it is annoying if they are too high, but no damage.
1472 2010-12-16 11:37:49 <da2ce7> The other attack is a Quantum computer is made and enables somebody to steal people coins, otherwise bitcoin is theft proof.
1473 2010-12-16 11:37:53 altamic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1474 2010-12-16 11:37:59 <digger3> da2ce7: right, so let's keep block generation on the bitcoin network for now. It's the transaction part that suffers most from privacy issues I'd say
1475 2010-12-16 11:38:11 <da2ce7> yep
1476 2010-12-16 11:38:39 altamic has joined
1477 2010-12-16 11:38:43 <da2ce7> and it is a good way to payfor or donate to freesites.
1478 2010-12-16 11:39:44 <digger3> da2ce7: right, but you bounty concerns the storage of previously generated blocks not transactions
1479 2010-12-16 11:39:47 TheAncientGoat has joined
1480 2010-12-16 11:41:11 <da2ce7> yep :D
1481 2010-12-16 11:41:30 <da2ce7> transactions will get annother bounty, but I'm not an unlimited source of bitcoins.
1482 2010-12-16 11:41:38 <digger3> da2ce7: transactions would need 2 components: bridge nodes from freenet <-> bitcoin network and a mapping between bitcoin pubkeys and some freenet keyspace
1483 2010-12-16 11:41:42 KwukDuck has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1484 2010-12-16 11:41:42 <da2ce7> checkout: http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=anonymity also
1485 2010-12-16 11:42:36 <da2ce7> yep, I assumed something like that. When a new block is generated, everyone can insert the same file so it gets spread arround real fast
1486 2010-12-16 11:42:45 <digger3> this would amount to tor-like exit nodes in practice
1487 2010-12-16 11:43:18 <da2ce7> hmm more like tor entry nodes :D
1488 2010-12-16 11:43:50 <da2ce7> the problem is that some blocks are going to be geneated, then ophaned later on. and a differnt chain over-takes them
1489 2010-12-16 11:44:28 <da2ce7> sometimes this can happen after 100blocks. it is called a chain split
1490 2010-12-16 11:45:39 <digger3> right, that's to be expected in a distruted network
1491 2010-12-16 11:46:30 <digger3> da2ce7: even if you would keep the current bitcoin infrastructure as leading then it would make much more sense in a freenet context to provide freenet <-> bitcoin transaction support through nodes
1492 2010-12-16 11:46:43 LobsterMan has left ()
1493 2010-12-16 11:46:43 LobsterMan has joined
1494 2010-12-16 11:47:04 <LobsterMan> someone should update the topic to reflect .19
1495 2010-12-16 11:47:50 <da2ce7> digger3, sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean by that?
1496 2010-12-16 11:48:24 noagendamarket has joined
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1498 2010-12-16 11:49:44 <digger3> da2ce7: what you actually want is to send money anonymously to some bitcoin address (obtained from freenet somewhere)
1499 2010-12-16 11:50:09 <Bitcoinz> ;;bc,calc 1400000
1500 2010-12-16 11:50:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 10 hours, 26 minutes, and 27 seconds
1501 2010-12-16 11:51:01 <Bitcoinz> ;;bc,calc 1200
1502 2010-12-16 11:51:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 year, 20 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 2 minutes, and 20 seconds
1503 2010-12-16 11:51:32 <Bitcoinz> ;;bc,calc 1200000
1504 2010-12-16 11:51:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 12 hours, 10 minutes, and 51 seconds
1505 2010-12-16 11:51:36 <da2ce7> yes, ofcourse, that is my longer term plan. I just wanted to get the foundation in place first.
1506 2010-12-16 11:52:10 <da2ce7> there are other issues that need to be solved first, like creating reliable bitcoin mixing services.
1507 2010-12-16 11:52:21 <digger3> da2ce7: having a freenet cache of generated blocks doesn't support your long-term goal
1508 2010-12-16 11:54:46 <da2ce7> well, if you see: http://domainchain.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitname there is annother long term goal that I have that would be very usefull to have just a broadcast of the bitcoin chain for. identity verification. See the BitName part.
1509 2010-12-16 11:54:51 <Bitcoinz> ;;bc,calc 2500000
1510 2010-12-16 11:54:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 5 hours, 50 minutes, and 48 seconds
1511 2010-12-16 11:55:35 <Bitcoinz> ;;bc,calc 2800000
1512 2010-12-16 11:55:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2800000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 5 hours, 13 minutes, and 13 seconds
1513 2010-12-16 11:56:14 <da2ce7> also I thought that the general infrastructure would be able to be improved upon. However, I think that designing a two-way system from the start would be great
1514 2010-12-16 11:56:45 <digger3> da2ce7: what is it that you want to achieve in the end?
1515 2010-12-16 11:57:25 <digger3> da2ce7: sending money to some anonymous freesite author is relatively easy assuming that this transaction is publically known
1516 2010-12-16 11:57:26 kingdon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1517 2010-12-16 11:57:35 <PP22> i was just wondering: bitcoin uses IRC to find peers, what happens when the IRC channel dies?
1518 2010-12-16 11:59:03 <da2ce7> longterm goal: Freedom to conduct commerce anonymously
1519 2010-12-16 11:59:39 kingdon has joined
1520 2010-12-16 12:00:20 <da2ce7> short term goal: a full featured bitcoin client that can run on the freenet network. Making bitcoin harder to attack
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1522 2010-12-16 12:01:13 Dashkal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1525 2010-12-16 12:02:59 <digger3> da2ce7: ok, sounds reasonable
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1530 2010-12-16 12:04:07 <Amiga4000> freenet has some high latency transport. that will be a problem
1531 2010-12-16 12:04:39 kingdon has joined
1532 2010-12-16 12:05:00 <digger3> Amiga4000: not if you keep the block generation on a separate network. You don't need that to anonymously transfer transaction between anonymous bitcoin identities
1533 2010-12-16 12:05:10 <da2ce7> what about the new high prioty flag? the high proity stuff dosn't need to be broadcasted, it only need to make it to one gateway
1534 2010-12-16 12:05:17 <Amiga4000> anonymous transfer can already be done via TOR, I2P or else
1535 2010-12-16 12:05:37 <Amiga4000> and devide it into anon and non anon is kinda dangerous
1536 2010-12-16 12:05:56 <da2ce7> it is the block chain that is geneated that is low priotry and can needs to be shared arround
1537 2010-12-16 12:06:05 <digger3> da2ce7: doesn't work that way. It's the polling issue
1538 2010-12-16 12:06:25 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1539 2010-12-16 12:06:34 <digger3> da2ce7: you would need the blocks in freenet too in order to verify whether you have received the money or not :)
1540 2010-12-16 12:07:30 <da2ce7> I don't know if the client can handel blocks arriving out of order, then sorting them afterwards or not.
1541 2010-12-16 12:07:33 <digger3> Amiga4000: yes you are right about i2p&tor doing something along similar lines
1542 2010-12-16 12:07:46 <RichardG_> interesting thing on the orphaned channel
1543 2010-12-16 12:07:47 <RichardG_> * silver_hook (~silver_ho@88.200.87.250) has joined #bitcoin
1544 2010-12-16 12:07:47 <RichardG_> <silver_hook> Hullo.
1545 2010-12-16 12:07:47 <RichardG_> <silver_hook> Does BitCoin have anything to do with BitCoin Ltd. which has a "patent pending technology [that] starts with the friction free experience of the iPhone app store: users can authorize their meter to automatically flow payments to any app up with just two clicks and no typing.
1546 2010-12-16 12:08:01 <RichardG_> bitcoin.com and such
1547 2010-12-16 12:08:02 <da2ce7> no
1548 2010-12-16 12:08:06 <noagendamarket> no
1549 2010-12-16 12:08:35 <ArtForz> imo freenet isn't really suited for bitcoin
1550 2010-12-16 12:08:42 <Amiga4000> sure, a bitcoin client in freenet could be useful, if possible
1551 2010-12-16 12:08:47 <noagendamarket> .org domains are usually for projects
1552 2010-12-16 12:09:09 <noagendamarket> if it was .com the feds could take it down lol
1553 2010-12-16 12:09:28 <Amiga4000> the feds could take down all URLs ;-)
1554 2010-12-16 12:09:35 <noagendamarket> well yeah
1555 2010-12-16 12:09:52 <digger3> ok, thanks all for clariying everything
1556 2010-12-16 12:09:56 <noagendamarket> see p2pdns or bitdns lol
1557 2010-12-16 12:10:07 <da2ce7> cool, thanks for the intrest
1558 2010-12-16 12:10:39 AndChat has joined
1559 2010-12-16 12:10:49 <digger3> da2ce7: are there java bitcoin clients that I could base it all on?
1560 2010-12-16 12:11:06 PP22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1561 2010-12-16 12:11:22 <da2ce7> no, well there are a couple in development for the android. But I forget who is developing them.
1562 2010-12-16 12:11:45 kingdon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1563 2010-12-16 12:12:08 <digger3> da2ce7: I don't want to deal with all the low-level protocol mess :)
1564 2010-12-16 12:12:16 mtgox has joined
1565 2010-12-16 12:13:03 <Amiga4000> in case of I2P the biggest problem is the client talking to IPs
1566 2010-12-16 12:14:24 <da2ce7> digger3, unfoutanly I cannot help you there, I'm not a coder.
1567 2010-12-16 12:15:21 AndChat has quit (!~xulrunner@74-44-72-44.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1568 2010-12-16 12:15:29 <ArtForz> well, modifying bitcoin for tor would be relatively easy
1569 2010-12-16 12:16:43 <Amiga4000> I2P is "quite easy", to. Just use IDs instead of IPs. but I do not code. and maybe some more problems arise
1570 2010-12-16 12:16:53 <Amiga4000> like bootstrapping
1571 2010-12-16 12:21:29 <ArtForz> hrrrm
1572 2010-12-16 12:24:31 <digger3> is there documentation on the blocks format and how the bitcoin client stores it locally?
1573 2010-12-16 12:25:41 <ArtForz> depends on your definition of documentation
1574 2010-12-16 12:25:49 <digger3> ArtForz: try me
1575 2010-12-16 12:26:00 PP22 has joined
1576 2010-12-16 12:26:28 <ArtForz> afaik there's no text spec, but bitcointools has a pretty complete block parser in python
1577 2010-12-16 12:27:01 <ArtForz> a lot easier to figure out than mainlines Cpp
1578 2010-12-16 12:27:53 <digger3> ArtForz: ah, that helps a lot, thanks
1579 2010-12-16 12:31:45 grondilu has joined
1580 2010-12-16 12:36:44 Myckel has joined
1581 2010-12-16 12:36:44 Myckel has quit (Changing host)
1582 2010-12-16 12:36:45 Myckel has joined
1583 2010-12-16 12:39:56 Pogo has joined
1584 2010-12-16 12:40:00 <Pogo> Salut?
1585 2010-12-16 12:40:38 <Pogo> grondilu:?
1586 2010-12-16 12:40:47 <grondilu> ouai
1587 2010-12-16 12:40:50 <Pogo> ;)
1588 2010-12-16 12:41:34 <Pogo> Bon, je vais essayer de la monter.
1589 2010-12-16 12:41:35 <Pogo> mount /dev/sda1 /media/disk1-home
1590 2010-12-16 12:41:49 <grondilu> attends malheureux !
1591 2010-12-16 12:42:04 <Pogo> :)
1592 2010-12-16 12:42:21 <grondilu> d'abord va sur la fenêtre de conversation privée que j'ai crée.
1593 2010-12-16 12:42:36 <MT`AwAy> ?
1594 2010-12-16 12:43:26 <Pogo> Ok.
1595 2010-12-16 12:45:48 digger3 has left ()
1596 2010-12-16 12:46:34 RichardG_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1597 2010-12-16 12:47:42 RichardG has joined
1598 2010-12-16 12:49:12 <xelister> wadup Diablo-D3
1599 2010-12-16 12:49:17 <xelister> digger3 .. meh he left
1600 2010-12-16 12:49:57 <Diablo-D3> ?
1601 2010-12-16 12:51:11 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: xelister did a tab misfire :p
1602 2010-12-16 12:51:37 genjix has joined
1603 2010-12-16 12:51:40 <genjix> hey
1604 2010-12-16 12:52:03 <MT`AwAy> hoy
1605 2010-12-16 12:52:35 <genjix> Q: if I use "gpg -r genjix --output test.jpg --encrypt cairo.jpg" to encrypt a file... does that mean anyone with my public key can decrypt it?
1606 2010-12-16 12:53:43 <grondilu> genjix: no
1607 2010-12-16 12:53:45 <genjix> should i have a secret public/private keypair I use for encrypting personal files? And use another one for email .etc where I give out the public key to everyone?
1608 2010-12-16 12:53:52 <genjix> grondilu: aha thanks
1609 2010-12-16 12:54:06 <genjix> so when I do: gpg --output decry.jpg --decrypt test.jpg
1610 2010-12-16 12:54:14 <genjix> that requires my private key?
1611 2010-12-16 12:54:21 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1612 2010-12-16 12:54:48 <grondilu> this is not a good way to use gpg anyway
1613 2010-12-16 12:55:01 <grondilu> what do you want to do exactly ?
1614 2010-12-16 12:55:24 <genjix> encrypt sensitive files, back them up on insecure 3rd party servers
1615 2010-12-16 12:55:35 <Diablo-D3> ahh
1616 2010-12-16 12:55:43 <genjix> i.e bitcoin wallets
1617 2010-12-16 12:56:27 <grondilu> gpg -e $myfiletoencrypt
1618 2010-12-16 12:56:32 <genjix> http://pastebin.com/QcXwX9gP
1619 2010-12-16 12:56:33 <grondilu> that's all
1620 2010-12-16 12:56:37 <genjix> that's the script i use
1621 2010-12-16 12:56:53 <genjix> gpg -e == gpg --encrypt
1622 2010-12-16 12:57:29 <grondilu> yes but don't use output to a .jpg file
1623 2010-12-16 12:57:50 <grondilu> let it create a .gpg file
1624 2010-12-16 12:58:05 <genjix> but I'm confused... you know when you email and you decide to encrypt it with GPG?
1625 2010-12-16 12:58:17 <genjix> the other side can decrypt is using your public key
1626 2010-12-16 12:58:21 <genjix> so why not now?
1627 2010-12-16 12:58:46 <grondilu> because now you're the only destination (-r genjix)
1628 2010-12-16 12:59:00 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1629 2010-12-16 12:59:10 <genjix> thank you!
1630 2010-12-16 12:59:26 <genjix> i see now :)
1631 2010-12-16 12:59:51 <grondilu> nobody ever decrypts anything using a public key
1632 2010-12-16 13:00:10 <genjix> i think i understand now.
1633 2010-12-16 13:00:21 <genjix> but you sign it using someone else's public key
1634 2010-12-16 13:00:28 <grondilu> yes
1635 2010-12-16 13:00:28 <genjix> and they can decrypt it with their private key
1636 2010-12-16 13:00:34 <grondilu> no
1637 2010-12-16 13:01:31 <grondilu> signing and crypting are two different things. Oranges and apples.
1638 2010-12-16 13:01:53 <genjix> "This means that the message encrypted (encoded) using your Public Key can only be decrypted (decoded) by you, the owner of the corresponding Private Key."
1639 2010-12-16 13:02:04 <grondilu> yes
1640 2010-12-16 13:02:18 <grondilu> but this has nothing to do with signing.
1641 2010-12-16 13:02:27 <genjix> oh
1642 2010-12-16 13:02:37 <genjix> signing = verifying that it is from me
1643 2010-12-16 13:02:48 <genjix> crypting = adding their public key
1644 2010-12-16 13:02:50 <genjix> right?
1645 2010-12-16 13:02:53 <grondilu> no
1646 2010-12-16 13:02:57 <grondilu> no
1647 2010-12-16 13:03:05 <grondilu> :)
1648 2010-12-16 13:03:27 <grondilu> signing = making it possible for someone to check you wrote something
1649 2010-12-16 13:03:50 <genjix> ok yes, i meant this :p
1650 2010-12-16 13:04:01 <grondilu> crypting = making it impossible for anyone to read something, apart from someone.
1651 2010-12-16 13:04:18 <genjix> thanks for clearing this up with me now.
1652 2010-12-16 13:05:00 <grondilu> GnuPG is not easy to understand at beginning. I advise you to read the GPG manual page. Or the GnuPG FAQ.
1653 2010-12-16 13:05:19 dsg has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1654 2010-12-16 13:05:34 <genjix> yep i am
1655 2010-12-16 13:06:41 <xelister> node that would receive and send blocks to other nodes with 30-60 minutes delay ... such a node would be still able to receive and send BTCs to bitcoin addresses of other users - right? it would only be excluded practically from the generation and mining?
1656 2010-12-16 13:07:49 <MT`AwAy> xelister: yep
1657 2010-12-16 13:07:50 <UukGoblin> xelister, receive, yes
1658 2010-12-16 13:07:58 <MT`AwAy> receive & send OK
1659 2010-12-16 13:08:00 <UukGoblin> send... it would need connectivity with peers
1660 2010-12-16 13:08:15 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin: it just need to have one other peer broadcast its transaction
1661 2010-12-16 13:08:16 <xelister> Im pondering communication not over IP, but over other things
1662 2010-12-16 13:08:22 <xelister> like say i2p or freenet
1663 2010-12-16 13:08:24 <MT`AwAy> xelister: over avian carriers ?
1664 2010-12-16 13:08:44 <xelister> freenet can be most anonymous net that exists, but can have latency of 1..60 minutes and more
1665 2010-12-16 13:08:55 <xelister> depending on few factors
1666 2010-12-16 13:09:17 <MT`AwAy> xelister: well, delay is fine as long as "someone" on the other side broadcasts the transaction on the bitcoin network
1667 2010-12-16 13:09:19 <xelister> so... how can such big latency node make payments?
1668 2010-12-16 13:09:26 dsg has joined
1669 2010-12-16 13:09:44 <xelister> MT`AwAy: yes a hybrid freenet&p2p node will get the block and broadcast to normal p2p nodes
1670 2010-12-16 13:09:59 <MT`AwAy> xelister: it needs to make the transaction (sign, etc), then send it on your slow network, and a special bitcoin node would pick up transactions from there and broadcast them
1671 2010-12-16 13:10:17 maximi89 is now known as maximi89-away
1672 2010-12-16 13:10:24 <MT`AwAy> if you do that, even with a one week delay it'll still work (unless the coins are spent somewhere else in the meantime)
1673 2010-12-16 13:10:42 <MT`AwAy> and there's no need to encrypt the transaction (it'll be in the blocks later anyway)
1674 2010-12-16 13:10:47 <xelister> so, the freenet-hidden bitcoin node is at block say 1000 (now entire network is at block 1003). Now the block creates transaction, broadcasts needed message, and this message reaches normal bitcoin nodes around 1 hour later (when entire node is at block 1007). How will that work?
1675 2010-12-16 13:10:58 <xelister> typo
1676 2010-12-16 13:11:04 <xelister> so, the freenet-hidden bitcoin node is at block say 1000 (now entire network is at block 1003). Now the node creates transaction, broadcasts needed message, and this message reaches normal bitcoin nodes around 1 hour later (when entire node is at block 1007). How will that work?
1677 2010-12-16 13:11:21 <MT`AwAy> xelister: generating a transaction only needs to know where the funds come from
1678 2010-12-16 13:11:35 <MT`AwAy> ie, if the originating transaction is known to the client, it doesn't need any other part of the block chain
1679 2010-12-16 13:12:14 <MT`AwAy> a generated transaction can be inserted now, or in one year in the block chain, as long as the initial transaction is not already spent, it'll be fine
1680 2010-12-16 13:12:25 <xelister> ok, so what is the "send from me to X" message that is (slowly) broadcastet?
1681 2010-12-16 13:12:53 <MT`AwAy> ?
1682 2010-12-16 13:13:10 <xelister> that message only says "send from me(A) to node X, amount .... with lable ..." and is isgned by my pubkey nothing else is needed? And it does not need to reference recent (or any other) block, therefore it is ok when it arrives late?
1683 2010-12-16 13:13:23 <MT`AwAy> yep
1684 2010-12-16 13:13:29 <xelister> woot
1685 2010-12-16 13:13:34 <MT`AwAy> it only needs to reference the transaction from which funds are taken
1686 2010-12-16 13:13:35 <xelister> and about receiving payments, the same?
1687 2010-12-16 13:13:41 <UukGoblin> not exactly "node X": "address X"
1688 2010-12-16 13:13:46 <MT`AwAy> yep, you receive the block, you get the funds
1689 2010-12-16 13:14:11 <MT`AwAy> and once you have the block which tells you you have received X, you can spend this X :)
1690 2010-12-16 13:15:03 Pogo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1691 2010-12-16 13:15:59 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
1692 2010-12-16 13:16:00 <gribble> 14238.69087244
1693 2010-12-16 13:16:05 <UukGoblin> thieves
1694 2010-12-16 13:16:44 <xelister> fast miners... they toook our jooobs
1695 2010-12-16 13:17:20 <UukGoblin> the network has now officially exceeded 100Ghash
1696 2010-12-16 13:17:45 <grondilu> is there a tool to convert this in Flops ?
1697 2010-12-16 13:17:49 <Amiga4000> yeah, bitcoin is kinda unfair. First come, first serve.
1698 2010-12-16 13:18:48 * xelister imagines a bunch of maxicanos at ArtForz's custom-CPU server farm "theyyyy tookk our joooobs"
1699 2010-12-16 13:18:54 <genjix> dey tuk our jerrrrbs
1700 2010-12-16 13:19:02 <UukGoblin> Amiga4000, fairer than banks... "first come, WE TAKE IT ALL"
1701 2010-12-16 13:19:07 <ArtForz> blame canada!
1702 2010-12-16 13:19:15 <xelister> duu tuuk cucucucuuuuuu!
1703 2010-12-16 13:19:51 <genjix> chuuuuuu
1704 2010-12-16 13:20:12 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1705 2010-12-16 13:21:46 <UukGoblin> imagine the chaos when a block will start generating 25BTC instead of 50
1706 2010-12-16 13:21:57 <UukGoblin> I can already see the riots and protests
1707 2010-12-16 13:22:19 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin: maybe we should make this happen faster
1708 2010-12-16 13:22:43 <xelister> UukGoblin: perhaps lolbama will bail them out
1709 2010-12-16 13:23:12 <UukGoblin> MT`AwAy, it kinda will happen faster if the network continues to grow
1710 2010-12-16 13:23:45 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin, I mean, faster like next month
1711 2010-12-16 13:24:02 <UukGoblin> MT`AwAy, uhm? how would you manage that?
1712 2010-12-16 13:24:25 cykros has joined
1713 2010-12-16 13:24:31 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin, convince Satoshi :D
1714 2010-12-16 13:24:37 <UukGoblin> ah, lol
1715 2010-12-16 13:24:42 <MT`AwAy> by updating the client he can change those rules
1716 2010-12-16 13:24:49 <cykros> is there yet a way to make the mac bitcoin client hide instead of just minimize?
1717 2010-12-16 13:24:51 <ArtForz> not really
1718 2010-12-16 13:25:10 <cykros> or would doing that require compiling the linux package (if this even worksâ¦i suspect it should though)
1719 2010-12-16 13:25:15 <UukGoblin> cykros, I'm sure there is, in the code ;-]
1720 2010-12-16 13:25:18 <ArtForz> most miners wouldnt accept the change
1721 2010-12-16 13:25:30 <cykros> :-( there's an option in the preferences menu, but it's grayed out.
1722 2010-12-16 13:25:55 <cykros> along with the "start bitcoin on window system startup"
1723 2010-12-16 13:25:59 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz, even if the argumentation is solid ?
1724 2010-12-16 13:26:19 <MT`AwAy> anyway if it's not, chances of having Satoshi agree are weak
1725 2010-12-16 13:26:27 <ArtForz> "hey, lets just change this arbitrary number to another arbitrary number for no reason"
1726 2010-12-16 13:26:45 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz, that's not argumentation :D
1727 2010-12-16 13:26:53 cykros has left ()
1728 2010-12-16 13:26:58 <MT`AwAy> I'm just saying we don't know what the future is made of, and bitcoin rules are not in stone
1729 2010-12-16 13:27:04 <UukGoblin> "in order to prevent riots in the future, ..."
1730 2010-12-16 13:27:13 <MT`AwAy> the 21 million limit could also be changed anytime
1731 2010-12-16 13:27:18 <Amiga4000> just create a 2nd bitcoin
1732 2010-12-16 13:27:24 <ArtForz> but yeah, making generation reduction more gradual would make sense
1733 2010-12-16 13:28:38 <UukGoblin> hey, bitcoin's back on wipipedia!
1734 2010-12-16 13:29:04 <ArtForz> yeah, for a few days already
1735 2010-12-16 13:29:42 <ArtForz> iirc the pcworld article was the major tipping point
1736 2010-12-16 13:31:41 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1737 2010-12-16 13:31:55 darrob has quit (Disconnected by services)
1738 2010-12-16 13:32:01 <UukGoblin> hrm
1739 2010-12-16 13:32:03 darrob has joined
1740 2010-12-16 13:32:04 <UukGoblin> if history is to be trusted
1741 2010-12-16 13:32:10 <UukGoblin> the value of a bitcoin should now increase
1742 2010-12-16 13:32:17 <Auctus> to steal bitcoins you just have to steal a person's wallet.dat, right?
1743 2010-12-16 13:32:27 <MT`AwAy> Auctus, currently yes
1744 2010-12-16 13:32:38 <ArtForz> currently?
1745 2010-12-16 13:32:40 <MT`AwAy> wait until there are encrypted wallets :p
1746 2010-12-16 13:32:44 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1747 2010-12-16 13:32:49 da2ce7 has joined
1748 2010-12-16 13:32:54 <ArtForz> imo encrypted wallet doesnt really help much
1749 2010-12-16 13:33:09 <Auctus> yeah you could just use a keylogger to steal the password
1750 2010-12-16 13:33:09 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz, it does, without the passphrase you can't use it
1751 2010-12-16 13:33:10 <Bitcoinz> hi room
1752 2010-12-16 13:33:21 <MT`AwAy> Auctus, still requires more efforts
1753 2010-12-16 13:33:29 <Bitcoinz> jest went to the dentist
1754 2010-12-16 13:33:45 <ArtForz> erm, more effort? to steal the wallet I already have to have access to the box
1755 2010-12-16 13:34:17 <ArtForz> and at that point installing a keylogger or a trojaned bitcoin binary is not really hard
1756 2010-12-16 13:36:50 <MT`AwAy> at this point we could implement better encryption (using hardware device or otp)
1757 2010-12-16 13:37:01 <UukGoblin> otp encryption..?
1758 2010-12-16 13:38:12 <xelister> if all generation of coins would be stoped,
1759 2010-12-16 13:38:22 <xelister> then people would be able to normally transfer to eachother?
1760 2010-12-16 13:38:28 <xelister> only the printing of "new bills" would stop?
1761 2010-12-16 13:39:10 <xelister> or is generating new blocks mendatory for payments... I guess it is (chence the X confirmations to be sure about xfer thing)
1762 2010-12-16 13:39:54 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1763 2010-12-16 13:40:02 <UukGoblin> xelister, people would be able to transfer, but transfers wouldn't get confirmed
1764 2010-12-16 13:40:05 <MT`AwAy> xelister: you can still generate blocks even if it doesn't generate bitcoins
1765 2010-12-16 13:40:14 <zygf> that's why I don't get the limitation of 6 blocks per hour, it takes a while to get a transaction set in stone
1766 2010-12-16 13:40:50 <UukGoblin> zygf, that limit is set so that network latency-related problems are minimized
1767 2010-12-16 13:40:53 <zygf> and the dominating nodes are effectively the only ones able to confirm transactions
1768 2010-12-16 13:42:22 <UukGoblin> also problematic would be if a large amount of nodes stopped generating
1769 2010-12-16 13:42:31 <UukGoblin> it would take quite a while before the difficulty would re-adjust
1770 2010-12-16 13:43:20 <MT`AwAy> like on testnet
1771 2010-12-16 13:50:36 <gavinandresen> Good morning everybody. MT`AwAy: latest svn fixes the RCP denial-of-service you pointed out.
1772 2010-12-16 13:51:45 EvanR has joined
1773 2010-12-16 13:52:11 <MT`AwAy> gavinandresen: thanks
1774 2010-12-16 13:52:19 ArtForz has joined
1775 2010-12-16 13:53:23 <xelister> <toad_> *IF* opennet survives long enough for people to start attacking freetalk using captcha exploits then we'll try hashcash and maybe ultimately bitcoin
1776 2010-12-16 13:53:25 <xelister> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1777 2010-12-16 13:53:36 <xelister> freenet lead developer on anti-spam perhaps one day with BTC
1778 2010-12-16 13:53:55 <ArtForz> hashcash is a broken concept
1779 2010-12-16 13:53:56 <MT`AwAy> how do you antispam with btc?
1780 2010-12-16 13:54:01 <xelister> MT`AwAy: pay
1781 2010-12-16 13:54:19 <Amiga4000> captcha is bad.
1782 2010-12-16 13:54:21 <MT`AwAy> getting bitcoins is difficult enough yeah
1783 2010-12-16 13:54:42 <UukGoblin> hashcash isn't gonna stop GPU-capable spammers
1784 2010-12-16 13:54:43 <xelister> MT`AwAy: its easy. mtgox. and say 0.01 BTC per identity use
1785 2010-12-16 13:54:47 <ArtForz> yep
1786 2010-12-16 13:54:55 <MT`AwAy> xelister: I'll make a bot that use freebitcoins then
1787 2010-12-16 13:54:57 <xelister> UukGoblin: how exactly is BTC better <-- this is question from freenet
1788 2010-12-16 13:55:06 <ArtForz> GPUs make hashcash totally lopsided
1789 2010-12-16 13:55:08 <MT`AwAy> you need to make it at least 0.06
1790 2010-12-16 13:55:12 <xelister> actually the question ( #freenet ) is if
1791 2010-12-16 13:55:21 <xelister> bitcoin will untilatelly leed to global warming ;)
1792 2010-12-16 13:55:36 <MT`AwAy> xelister: good thing, I'm getting a bit cold this week
1793 2010-12-16 13:55:38 <Amiga4000> opennet in freenet needs to survive. but OT
1794 2010-12-16 13:55:40 <xelister> or more exactly, will bitcoin not end up in power race that consumes considerable amounts of global power
1795 2010-12-16 13:55:43 duck1123 has joined
1796 2010-12-16 13:55:45 <xelister> like, global power plants power
1797 2010-12-16 13:55:51 <xelister> (imho this is crazy idea, but...)
1798 2010-12-16 13:55:54 <ArtForz> actually with rational actors the amount of power "wasted" for bitcoin is pretty limited
1799 2010-12-16 13:56:26 <xelister> so, is bitcoin the next environment distaster (or at least notable source of waste?)
1800 2010-12-16 13:56:33 <UukGoblin> who would the 0.01BTC or 0.06BTC go to?
1801 2010-12-16 13:56:43 <davex__> 300 bitcoins an hour is not "considerable"
1802 2010-12-16 13:57:18 <ArtForz> yup
1803 2010-12-16 13:57:26 <xelister> davex__: bullshit
1804 2010-12-16 13:57:34 <davex__> really?
1805 2010-12-16 13:57:40 <xelister> you have no idea how this 300 btc/h translated to computer power use in next say 5 years
1806 2010-12-16 13:57:52 <davex__> sure i do. a small percentage of the bitcoin economy.
1807 2010-12-16 13:57:53 <ArtForz> except in 5 years it wont be 300/hour
1808 2010-12-16 13:57:58 <ArtForz> it'll be 150/hour
1809 2010-12-16 13:58:01 <xelister> it could need 1000 of 2000 W servers to compute one block
1810 2010-12-16 13:58:03 <xelister> or more
1811 2010-12-16 13:58:11 <xelister> running a month
1812 2010-12-16 13:58:12 <xelister> etc
1813 2010-12-16 13:58:30 <ArtForz> very unlikely unless price of power totally collapses
1814 2010-12-16 13:58:37 <xelister> ArtForz: but why?
1815 2010-12-16 13:58:45 <xelister> ArtForz: then BTC will be very very scares
1816 2010-12-16 13:58:52 <ArtForz> because all miners combined get X BTC/hour
1817 2010-12-16 13:59:05 <xelister> perhaps it will make sense to spend say 10.000 USD on ELECTRICITY alone to generate ONE BLOCK because BTC would be so super expensive
1818 2010-12-16 13:59:08 <xelister> ... although!
1819 2010-12-16 13:59:19 <xelister> I think the limiting factor is the amount of bitcoins we already have (milions)
1820 2010-12-16 13:59:20 <ArtForz> yes, thats why we said 300BTC/hour
1821 2010-12-16 13:59:39 <ArtForz> doesnt matter if 1BTC = $0.01 or $1000
1822 2010-12-16 13:59:50 * xelister invites toad
1823 2010-12-16 13:59:56 <ArtForz> it's still about 300BTC/hour worth
1824 2010-12-16 14:00:04 <ArtForz> at least for the next 2 years
1825 2010-12-16 14:01:05 <ArtForz> thats actually kinda neat about generation rate halving every ~4 years
1826 2010-12-16 14:02:24 toad_ has joined
1827 2010-12-16 14:04:08 * MT`AwAy pokes genjix
1828 2010-12-16 14:06:28 <toad_> is there a graph of the CPU cost of new coins over time?
1829 2010-12-16 14:06:49 <ArtForz> it's not exactly fixed
1830 2010-12-16 14:07:08 <UukGoblin> the historical graph would be similar to the graph of past difficulty
1831 2010-12-16 14:07:29 <UukGoblin> actually identical, but differently labelled
1832 2010-12-16 14:07:47 <ArtForz> you're forgetting the rise in difficulty GPUs caused
1833 2010-12-16 14:07:58 <xelister> yea where was that graph?
1834 2010-12-16 14:08:14 <UukGoblin> /I/ am forgetting?
1835 2010-12-16 14:08:40 <ArtForz> suddenly having 10x the hashes/W changes the scale
1836 2010-12-16 14:08:47 <UukGoblin> no, I will never forget that. The hole it left in my mind... the pain it caused me... all the time spent for creating a server farm... wasted... no, I will not forget that
1837 2010-12-16 14:09:01 <xelister> toad_: in last months it was around x1.5 times harder each 1.5 week or so
1838 2010-12-16 14:09:21 <ArtForz> I think we averaged roughly x1.4 every 10 days
1839 2010-12-16 14:09:36 <xelister> UukGoblin: you built a cpu farm just because gpu era? ;)
1840 2010-12-16 14:09:42 <xelister> *just befor
1841 2010-12-16 14:09:45 <ArtForz> = roughly doubling every 20 days
1842 2010-12-16 14:09:54 <UukGoblin> xelister, nah, not really. Just hired an existing one.
1843 2010-12-16 14:10:00 <UukGoblin> I'm joking there
1844 2010-12-16 14:10:08 <xelister> hehe bad luck
1845 2010-12-16 14:10:15 <UukGoblin> no
1846 2010-12-16 14:10:19 <toad_> UukGoblin: are you the guy who bought $20K of hardware and made it back in 3 months?
1847 2010-12-16 14:10:19 <UukGoblin> it was profitable
1848 2010-12-16 14:10:27 nelisky has joined
1849 2010-12-16 14:10:30 <ArtForz> nope, thats me
1850 2010-12-16 14:10:30 <UukGoblin> and I shut it down fairly quickly after it became unprofitable
1851 2010-12-16 14:10:40 <toad_> well, IMHO if such things are profitable this is a serious bug - is it fixed now? :)
1852 2010-12-16 14:10:48 <ArtForz> well, not exactly a bug
1853 2010-12-16 14:10:54 <UukGoblin> it's a feature ;-]
1854 2010-12-16 14:10:57 <ArtForz> I wrote the first GPU miner
1855 2010-12-16 14:11:06 <UukGoblin> it's fixed itself by the difficulty going up
1856 2010-12-16 14:11:16 <ArtForz> took the rest of the world well over a month to catch on
1857 2010-12-16 14:11:21 <toad_> well, it's a probably *if and only if* it results in an exponential arms race
1858 2010-12-16 14:11:32 <toad_> if the settling point is reasonable, then it's fine
1859 2010-12-16 14:11:52 <ArtForz> as generation tends toward 300BTC/hour, thats also roughly the power cost
1860 2010-12-16 14:11:52 <UukGoblin> bitcoin does result in an endless arms race
1861 2010-12-16 14:11:54 <MT`AwAy> the most worrying part is what will ArtForz do of all those bitcoins
1862 2010-12-16 14:12:01 <ArtForz> I sold 80% of em
1863 2010-12-16 14:12:12 <xelister> ArtForz cuts the opening ribbon to his sha1-cpu factory in taiwain. Thanks prime minister. Yes mr president here is the check for 1 milion USD... *ring ring* what? yeah I will take another week with your and your sister, brb Im buss so yea mr president we will keep the 100 job posts open for at least 3 years for your countryman... *ring ring* I told Im bussy mikiko.. or what, Nanotube how is it going on IRC... what? what do you mean we now
1864 2010-12-16 14:12:14 <xelister> use SHA-3?? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
1865 2010-12-16 14:12:39 <ArtForz> and I expect another big difficulty adjustment if the first custom hadrware miners pop up
1866 2010-12-16 14:12:59 <toad_> so every time there's a big adjustment, somebody makes a packet, but this is always a temporary state of affairs?
1867 2010-12-16 14:13:07 <MT`AwAy> and a lot of people swearing over their newly bought GPU
1868 2010-12-16 14:13:09 <ArtForz> yep
1869 2010-12-16 14:13:32 <ArtForz> well, I dont think we'll see ASICs in the near future
1870 2010-12-16 14:13:36 <xelister> half of the people is swearing beause they have to use shitty Ati drivers software
1871 2010-12-16 14:14:01 <ArtForz> getting custom chips fabbed takes a few months
1872 2010-12-16 14:14:08 <MT`AwAy> it depends on the crazy/rich ratio
1873 2010-12-16 14:14:16 <xelister> awwww. mikiko will be so dissapointed ArtForz
1874 2010-12-16 14:14:18 <ArtForz> hell, just getting a decent amount of FPGAs takes a few months
1875 2010-12-16 14:14:25 <toad_> so lets say the total power on the network is A, you add A horsepower, you get to generate half the coins on the network for a while; if somebody else adds 2A power, what happens?
1876 2010-12-16 14:15:12 <ArtForz> at exactly 50%, not much, difficulty doubles, first gets 1/4, you get 1/4, someone else gets 1/2
1877 2010-12-16 14:15:15 <UukGoblin> toad_, after the difficulty readjusts, you only then generate a quarter of the coins
1878 2010-12-16 14:15:19 <toad_> your cost is going to be X for capital payback and Y for energy ... both are proportional to your output rate
1879 2010-12-16 14:17:08 <UukGoblin> what's capital payback?
1880 2010-12-16 14:17:12 <ArtForz> 50% is kinda important, as if a single miner (or a bunch of collaborating miners) control >50% total hashrate, he/they can hog all generation
1881 2010-12-16 14:17:31 <toad_> well, what prevents it from being an arms race exactly? you get 1/2 for a while then you get less, you need to make back your capital in the period when you have half?
1882 2010-12-16 14:17:41 <ArtForz> pretty much
1883 2010-12-16 14:18:53 <ArtForz> we're still in exponential growth as difficulty still hasnt caught up to the ~ factor 10 increase in hash/W possible with GPUs
1884 2010-12-16 14:18:54 <xelister> toad_: also if you break the market by say overpowering everyone else - then you cut branch you are sitting on: people abandon bitcoin and you are left with tons of now usless data
1885 2010-12-16 14:19:02 <ArtForz> yep
1886 2010-12-16 14:19:34 <toad_> well, lets model steady state on a mature network
1887 2010-12-16 14:19:36 <toad_> demand is constant
1888 2010-12-16 14:20:10 <xelister> ArtForz: will untilatelly bitcoin cause, say in 5 years, spawn of tens of thousands of 10000 computers * 3000 W crazyass datacenter over the world, that will (in tiny way) affect actually global ecology and so on?
1889 2010-12-16 14:20:21 <ArtForz> huH?
1890 2010-12-16 14:20:32 <xelister> ArtForz: if I understoo that was toad_'s concern, right?
1891 2010-12-16 14:20:37 <ArtForz> well, if we assume equilibrium, total power spent per hour should be == amount of btc created per hour
1892 2010-12-16 14:20:46 <toad_> xelister: basically the question is is it always profitable to add horsepower equal to what's already on the network
1893 2010-12-16 14:20:48 <xelister> that bitcoin's armrace will one day because ACTUALL important for global ecosystem etc
1894 2010-12-16 14:21:05 <ArtForz> so currently about 300btc/hour worth, when generation drops to 25btc/block late 2012 it shoudl drop to 150btc/hour worth
1895 2010-12-16 14:21:06 <toad_> ArtForz: power and capital
1896 2010-12-16 14:21:06 <xelister> like say mining the rainforst or drilling for oil etc
1897 2010-12-16 14:21:43 <ArtForz> due to investment cost it should actually stay a bit < that
1898 2010-12-16 14:21:49 <toad_> okay so in the steady state, it takes one kWh to generate one kWh's wholesale market value worth of bitcoins
1899 2010-12-16 14:21:59 <ArtForz> assuming rational actors, yes
1900 2010-12-16 14:22:22 <xelister> toad_: well, obviously one limiting factor is totall size of the economy. If there is 100 mil worth of BTC, and just 0.1 mil of services/good to be bought by BTC, obviously the value is overrated x1000, the bubble bursts, it is no longer profitable to run such crazuass bonkers datacenters, so people shut them down etc
1901 2010-12-16 14:22:23 <ArtForz> if people start generating at a loss... who knows
1902 2010-12-16 14:22:35 <toad_> xelister: right, i was assuming demand is constant
1903 2010-12-16 14:23:02 <ArtForz> using CPUs for mining is already pretty much unprofitable, yet we still have quite a few people doing that
1904 2010-12-16 14:23:22 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1905 2010-12-16 14:23:37 <toad_> ArtForz: does the steady state equasion above give us an upper bound on how much total energy is going to be spent generating bitcoins?
1906 2010-12-16 14:23:43 <ArtForz> no
1907 2010-12-16 14:23:53 <toad_> even for a given economy size?
1908 2010-12-16 14:24:01 <ArtForz> for a given economy size... it should
1909 2010-12-16 14:24:31 <ArtForz> problem is if the size of the economy (-> value of 1btc) changes
1910 2010-12-16 14:24:33 <toad_> so if we assume bitcoin is successful beyond our wildest dreams, and has the GDP of say Iceland?
1911 2010-12-16 14:24:56 <ArtForz> we currently inflate at about 33% pa
1912 2010-12-16 14:25:05 <ArtForz> so... I'd guess... about 1/3 that
1913 2010-12-16 14:25:30 <ArtForz> in 2013 inflation from mining will already have dropped to <10%
1914 2010-12-16 14:26:00 <toad_> so GDP nominal * inflation / wholesale energy price ?
1915 2010-12-16 14:26:04 <ArtForz> yep
1916 2010-12-16 14:26:21 <toad_> long term you'd expect inflation to be reasonably low?
1917 2010-12-16 14:26:30 <ArtForz> yes
1918 2010-12-16 14:26:32 <toad_> how low?
1919 2010-12-16 14:26:34 <UukGoblin> well... remember generating will also create income from transaction fees... which won't contribute to inflation
1920 2010-12-16 14:26:41 <ArtForz> long-term infaltion drops exponentially
1921 2010-12-16 14:27:25 <ArtForz> yes, but I expect TX fees to only become a significant part of miner income after generation drops <5btc or so
1922 2010-12-16 14:27:48 <UukGoblin> so ~15 years
1923 2010-12-16 14:27:51 <ArtForz> yep
1924 2010-12-16 14:28:33 <ArtForz> and theres the incentive to run miners at a loss to protect the integrity of the block chain and thuis held bitcoins
1925 2010-12-16 14:29:05 dwdollar has left ()
1926 2010-12-16 14:29:17 <xelister> in say 20 days we could switch to some other system perhaps
1927 2010-12-16 14:29:18 <toad_> okay so lets call it 2% ... 11 billion USD * 2% / $0.1/unit maybe ... 2 billion kWh/annum, which is 69/second, which is 69kW for the entire system ... remarkably efficient really ...
1928 2010-12-16 14:29:22 <xelister> derivided from bitcoins
1929 2010-12-16 14:29:53 <xelister> like, more of the ripple payment system (simple cryptosigned by pub/priv key IOUs or something) based on the value from the "last" bitcoin block
1930 2010-12-16 14:30:00 <ArtForz> a double-spedning attack would significantly affect market price of bitcoins, so if you have like 500kBTC in a few years it might make sense to run miners unprofitably just to make attacks less likely
1931 2010-12-16 14:30:06 <xelister> haha "20 days". 20 years, I ment.
1932 2010-12-16 14:30:27 <UukGoblin> xelister, I don't get that ripple thing at all
1933 2010-12-16 14:30:33 <toad_> 360kW for the entire global financial system
1934 2010-12-16 14:30:39 <UukGoblin> "IOU 20 bucks" "OKay, pay me back" "GTFO, I won't"
1935 2010-12-16 14:31:06 <ArtForz> I don't like debt-based currencies
1936 2010-12-16 14:31:07 <xelister> UukGoblin: haha
1937 2010-12-16 14:31:09 <toad_> ArtForz: right but it's realistic to hope that irrationality is a non-huge fixed factor?
1938 2010-12-16 14:31:11 <xelister> UukGoblin: it assumes so trust.
1939 2010-12-16 14:31:27 <xelister> UukGoblin: it assumes some trust.
1940 2010-12-16 14:31:29 <toad_> ArtForz: a non-escalating factor?
1941 2010-12-16 14:31:37 <xelister> UukGoblin: well it happens even with real world money
1942 2010-12-16 14:31:38 <ArtForz> I'd say yes
1943 2010-12-16 14:31:43 bertodsera has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1944 2010-12-16 14:31:50 <xelister> Hey IOU 100 mil, pay me. <argentina
1945 2010-12-16 14:31:54 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, except with real money you can actually pay
1946 2010-12-16 14:31:57 <ArtForz> of course predicting markets is ... tricky
1947 2010-12-16 14:32:01 <xelister> Hey IOU 100 mil, pay me. <argentina> haha fuck you. <people> ohh. shit.
1948 2010-12-16 14:32:05 <UukGoblin> s/artforz/xelister/
1949 2010-12-16 14:32:09 <toad_> so really the worst case impact is people leave their old computers on 24x7 to generate coins, because they've already sunk the capital and don't care about the energy
1950 2010-12-16 14:32:15 <xelister> UukGoblin: or you can get fucked as above
1951 2010-12-16 14:32:15 <ArtForz> yep
1952 2010-12-16 14:32:21 <toad_> but even that is regulated by the fact that ultimately that will *cost them money*
1953 2010-12-16 14:32:31 <UukGoblin> xelister, you don't have to lend $ to anyone
1954 2010-12-16 14:32:37 <UukGoblin> xelister, ripple forces you to do that
1955 2010-12-16 14:32:39 <toad_> because wholesalers have better hardware and cheaper electricity
1956 2010-12-16 14:32:52 <xelister> Hey hilter, pay me back my obligations/bons! <hitler> no can't do Im bussy invding poland with all the tanks I bought by your money, brb
1957 2010-12-16 14:32:52 <zygf> toad_: those people are suckers, because they sink money into the system, while other people get bitcoins from it :P
1958 2010-12-16 14:32:53 <ArtForz> yep
1959 2010-12-16 14:33:16 <ArtForz> but find enouhg idi... errr... volunteers and you can amass a LOT of CPU
1960 2010-12-16 14:33:19 <ArtForz> see F@H
1961 2010-12-16 14:33:38 <toad_> well f@h is doing something useful at least
1962 2010-12-16 14:33:52 <xelister> feti at home?
1963 2010-12-16 14:33:56 <xelister> ah, folding.
1964 2010-12-16 14:34:01 <toad_> i guess we can expect to keep some sort of limit on that sort of irrationality in the long term if people know the value of the coins is less than the cost of the electricity
1965 2010-12-16 14:34:12 bertodsera has joined
1966 2010-12-16 14:34:15 <ArtForz> I think so
1967 2010-12-16 14:34:26 <ArtForz> so we're back to rational miners
1968 2010-12-16 14:34:29 <toad_> so the real concern is transaction fees and <ArtForz> and theres the incentive to run miners at a loss to protect the integrity of the block chain and thuis held bitcoins
1969 2010-12-16 14:34:38 * toad_ does not understand either of these concerns really
1970 2010-12-16 14:34:44 <toad_> i did read the paper a while back
1971 2010-12-16 14:34:53 <xelister> the tx fees
1972 2010-12-16 14:35:15 <xelister> would be like donating hardware to run a bank, and you are payed by handling transactions (more directly - now per transaction not per block)
1973 2010-12-16 14:35:36 <EvanR-work> no, its stupid. 'mining' does not protect as well as average joe generating coins. the point is to be distributed, not globbing in the few heavy mining operations
1974 2010-12-16 14:36:02 <toad_> why would average joe want to generate coins if it costs him money?
1975 2010-12-16 14:36:03 <xelister> it would be like normal bank system, except, you invest in stronger and stronger crypto, in place of, investing in better marketing,callcenters,offices,valuts,guards,security,websites,visa cards,ATMs, etc
1976 2010-12-16 14:36:05 <EvanR-work> and heavy mining discourages people from generating on their own
1977 2010-12-16 14:36:40 <EvanR-work> toad_: exactly how much
1978 2010-12-16 14:36:55 <xelister> EvanR-work: it could be a nice idea to introduce btc derivied operation that is planned to be not GPU-able too easly
1979 2010-12-16 14:36:56 <UukGoblin> toad_, he wouldn't, generally
1980 2010-12-16 14:36:58 PP22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1981 2010-12-16 14:37:03 <toad_> even if the system is on-but-idle otherwise, the energy cost comes from the difference between minimum power state and maximum power state
1982 2010-12-16 14:37:04 <UukGoblin> toad_, the idea is that generation won't actually cost money
1983 2010-12-16 14:37:12 <xelister> actually, running a frenet node would be a nice proof-of-work
1984 2010-12-16 14:37:31 Zarutian has joined
1985 2010-12-16 14:37:33 <EvanR-work> toad_: orders of magnitude less than running 4 300W gpus full time
1986 2010-12-16 14:37:34 <xelister> you need a good system, real, with mem,cpu,good hdds, can't 'cheat' with gpus etc etc
1987 2010-12-16 14:37:48 <toad_> my CPU can run at 3.2GHz all the way down to 1GHz on each core; it can probably switch off individual cores too; so the minimum power state is much cheaper than the maximum
1988 2010-12-16 14:37:51 <xelister> and such proof of work eats mostly hardware (and internet pipes/IPs) not power
1989 2010-12-16 14:37:52 <ArtForz> making a good trapdoor function is hard
1990 2010-12-16 14:37:59 <EvanR-work> the point is if it costs 25 cents per month who cares about the cost
1991 2010-12-16 14:38:09 <UukGoblin> xelister, except it's hard to verify
1992 2010-12-16 14:38:16 <toad_> EvanR-work: if it costs 25c/mo and it generates 10c/mo it's irrational
1993 2010-12-16 14:38:23 <ArtForz> we need something hard to solve, easy to verify
1994 2010-12-16 14:38:26 <xelister> UukGoblin: could be possible with some cool stats and signed reports
1995 2010-12-16 14:38:29 <xelister> I guess
1996 2010-12-16 14:38:49 <EvanR-work> you wouldnt do it for benefit
1997 2010-12-16 14:39:11 <toad_> most people would, we've seen that with mojonation, with every such system
1998 2010-12-16 14:39:12 <EvanR-work> you dont get paid for seti either
1999 2010-12-16 14:39:20 <toad_> when they figure out that they're not gonna make money they leave
2000 2010-12-16 14:39:35 <toad_> btc seems to be beyond that phase now which is good
2001 2010-12-16 14:41:18 <EvanR-work> definitely dont get paid for tor nodes
2002 2010-12-16 14:41:22 <toad_> hmmm, my calculation was off, 360MW for total world ... it's still pretty insignificant though, assuming actors are rational
2003 2010-12-16 14:41:54 <EvanR-work> youre providing a public service, are public works irrational too?
2004 2010-12-16 14:42:12 <UukGoblin> rationality is a mathematic term
2005 2010-12-16 14:42:18 <UukGoblin> in this case
2006 2010-12-16 14:42:40 <toad_> well, only a fraction of bitcoin users will provide this public service at a cost to themselves, this is probably a reasonable assumption
2007 2010-12-16 14:42:42 <UukGoblin> which means something along the lines of "maximize profit, minimise losses"
2008 2010-12-16 14:43:32 <toad_> so you have the cost-assuming-rational-miners, and then you add the increase in energy usage due to a relatively small number of users (irrationally) mining even though they're not optimally set up to mine
2009 2010-12-16 14:43:36 <EvanR-work> how do you quanitfy the 'profit' of keeping the environment healthy, keeping roads paved, internet available
2010 2010-12-16 14:44:00 <toad_> EvanR-work: well, you can calculate the cost of these things, the hard part is making people pay for them
2011 2010-12-16 14:44:08 <EvanR-work> the costs are easy
2012 2010-12-16 14:44:16 <toad_> EvanR-work: e.g. ecosystem services, carbon price etc
2013 2010-12-16 14:44:18 <EvanR-work> im talking about justifying them
2014 2010-12-16 14:44:39 <toad_> i agree that it is necessary for government to force people to pay their way - that's kind of off topic, no?
2015 2010-12-16 14:44:39 <ArtForz> unless my math is off, the current network hashrate only equals about 55kW in GPUs
2016 2010-12-16 14:44:53 <toad_> ArtForz: that's actually pretty worrying
2017 2010-12-16 14:45:06 <zygf> why would you want to provide a public service in form of signing one block every a couple years, when the large, energy efficient nodes sign blocks all the time and profit from it too?
2018 2010-12-16 14:45:06 <xelister> toad_: freenet uses more
2019 2010-12-16 14:45:14 <toad_> ArtForz: my figures using the GDP of iceland and assuming rational miners and low inflation come out with 69kW
2020 2010-12-16 14:45:15 <EvanR-work> it seems similar to justifying generating of coins at a loss
2021 2010-12-16 14:45:22 <toad_> ArtForz: for what is presumably a much bigger economy
2022 2010-12-16 14:45:30 altamic has joined
2023 2010-12-16 14:45:34 <toad_> ArtForz: suggests i'm probably getting something wrong :|
2024 2010-12-16 14:45:47 <toad_> ArtForz: or that we can assume a lot more irrational mining
2025 2010-12-16 14:45:47 <EvanR-work> zygf: more distribution
2026 2010-12-16 14:46:03 <toad_> xelister: off topic, talk about that on #freenet-chat :)
2027 2010-12-16 14:46:11 <xelister> toad_: freenet = 2 MW but lets say many of this comps would be anyway on, so say 0.5 MW
2028 2010-12-16 14:46:20 <ArtForz> at $0.2/BTC and $0.1/kWh, we should be sized about 10x that
2029 2010-12-16 14:46:23 <toad_> xelister: I'm not an op here but like I said ...
2030 2010-12-16 14:46:34 <toad_> ArtForz: 10x what?
2031 2010-12-16 14:46:34 <zygf> I'm sorry, but signing a block every couple years doesn't give me a feeling of contributing :P
2032 2010-12-16 14:46:36 <xelister> toad_: in this channel we are often offtopic
2033 2010-12-16 14:46:44 <zygf> meaningfully
2034 2010-12-16 14:46:54 <ArtForz> total hashrate (and thus power usage)
2035 2010-12-16 14:46:57 <xelister> yesteday we discusses how american['s gov] are fags, and also same about flash [developers] ;)
2036 2010-12-16 14:46:58 <EvanR-work> your work makes no different if you dont sign a block?
2037 2010-12-16 14:47:04 <EvanR-work> difference
2038 2010-12-16 14:47:06 <toad_> xelister: okay then i'll answer here: freenet is amenable to moore's law, its costs in terms of CPU approach 0 very fast, as long as it can deal with low uptimes
2039 2010-12-16 14:47:16 <UukGoblin> toad_, there's no idea of offtopicness on #bitcoin-dev ;-]
2040 2010-12-16 14:47:26 <xelister> yea
2041 2010-12-16 14:47:40 <toad_> xelister: whereas bitcoin produces constant CPU usage to generate coins; the CPU cost increases with moore's law
2042 2010-12-16 14:47:44 <xelister> and also how Diablo-D3's miner is almost as good as his sister
2043 2010-12-16 14:47:48 <toad_> xelister: so the power cost is constant at best
2044 2010-12-16 14:47:49 <xelister> >P_>
2045 2010-12-16 14:48:11 <ArtForz> break-even for power for ATI GPUs at $0.1/kWh is at difficulty roughly == 1Th/s total
2046 2010-12-16 14:48:18 <xelister> toad_: yeah, ulitimatelly bitcoin will be the bigger power hog.. but as discussed above, I guess it will be limited to reasonable amounts
2047 2010-12-16 14:48:49 <toad_> ArtForz: my guesstimate is 11 billion $ * 2% inflation divided by $0.10/kWh divided by seconds in a year gives 69kW ... i'm assuming btc is *way* smaller than that right now
2048 2010-12-16 14:48:57 <ArtForz> yep
2049 2010-12-16 14:48:58 <toad_> ArtForz: yet right now it is 55kW, what gives?
2050 2010-12-16 14:48:59 <zygf> EvanR-work: how does it make a difference? a single cpu is insignificant in the difficulty calculations
2051 2010-12-16 14:49:18 <ArtForz> initial investment for GPUs and uncertain payoff
2052 2010-12-16 14:49:24 <ArtForz> the economy is still pretty small
2053 2010-12-16 14:49:32 <EvanR-work> i was asking you if a cpu that never signs a block actually isnt helping at all
2054 2010-12-16 14:49:44 Xunie has joined
2055 2010-12-16 14:49:47 <ArtForz> if it never finds a block, it didnt help
2056 2010-12-16 14:49:58 <EvanR-work> ah
2057 2010-12-16 14:50:13 <EvanR-work> well then its like the lottery
2058 2010-12-16 14:50:14 <toad_> really? i thought the whole network replicated all transactions and thus functions as a distributed spend-tracker?
2059 2010-12-16 14:50:26 <toad_> in which case every node is in fact helping, even if it's not minting new coins?
2060 2010-12-16 14:50:30 <ArtForz> yes
2061 2010-12-16 14:50:31 <EvanR-work> pay in for decades and never see any return
2062 2010-12-16 14:50:43 <ArtForz> but a generating node that never finds a block doesnt help more than a non-generating node
2063 2010-12-16 14:50:45 <EvanR-work> and your money doesnt even matter
2064 2010-12-16 14:51:46 <EvanR-work> i guess the answer to this is to set up your own gpu farm
2065 2010-12-16 14:52:02 <zygf> if you assume that every participating node helps bitcoin get more credibility, then it's helping... the large nodes make free money :P
2066 2010-12-16 14:52:17 <ArtForz> yes
2067 2010-12-16 14:52:18 <toad_> EvanR-work: are you saying that mining is pointless if your system is slower than the miners because you have a very low probability of making anything?
2068 2010-12-16 14:52:39 <EvanR-work> no its pointless if your efforts never even matter
2069 2010-12-16 14:52:48 <ArtForz> yes, thats kinda backwards reasoning
2070 2010-12-16 14:53:20 <EvanR-work> like zygf said, how does it even help bitcoin
2071 2010-12-16 14:53:23 <EvanR-work> technically
2072 2010-12-16 14:53:40 <ArtForz> you cant tell in advance if/when a node will generate a block
2073 2010-12-16 14:53:59 <EvanR-work> but if the probability is 0.001% per day...
2074 2010-12-16 14:54:06 <toad_> ArtForz: I still don't understand why bitcoin is generating at 55kW when it has a million dollar economy if that and a 33% inflation rate versus a hypothetical future where it has a multi-billion dollar economy and a 2% inflation rate and generates at 70kW
2075 2010-12-16 14:54:16 <ArtForz> 1000 slow-ass nodes combined find about as many blocks as one node 1000x the speed
2076 2010-12-16 14:55:03 <toad_> ArtForz: that suggests the hash rate is far higher now than it needs to be?
2077 2010-12-16 14:55:05 <ArtForz> well... at 2% and multi-billion it'd be in the MW range
2078 2010-12-16 14:55:10 <ArtForz> yep
2079 2010-12-16 14:55:40 <toad_> ArtForz: hmmm so we can assume 1000x irrationality factor?
2080 2010-12-16 14:55:42 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: were not talking about 1000 slow as nodes
2081 2010-12-16 14:56:05 <EvanR-work> 999 slow ass nodes and one that trumps them
2082 2010-12-16 14:56:28 <EvanR-work> now your 'rate' is the same if you save money by deleting 999 nodes
2083 2010-12-16 14:56:47 <ArtForz> I dont quite understand
2084 2010-12-16 14:56:59 <toad_> ArtForz: 2% of 11 billion dollars translated to kWh at $0.10/unit, divided into seconds in a year gives 69kW, no?
2085 2010-12-16 14:57:34 <toad_> the output is in kWh per second ... oh, that's what i did wrong :|
2086 2010-12-16 14:57:53 <toad_> hours in a year, not seconds in a year ;)
2087 2010-12-16 14:58:02 <ArtForz> yup
2088 2010-12-16 14:58:22 <toad_> okay so for iceland it's 250MW
2089 2010-12-16 14:58:34 <toad_> for the world it's 1.3TW, ugh
2090 2010-12-16 14:58:48 <ArtForz> TW? wow...
2091 2010-12-16 14:58:49 daveandr has joined
2092 2010-12-16 14:59:11 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: can you not tell in advance who will 'get the block' because everyone is searching randomly? or because its a race
2093 2010-12-16 14:59:23 <zygf> that might be close to the total solar heat hitting the earth...
2094 2010-12-16 14:59:28 <ArtForz> because everyone is searching randomly
2095 2010-12-16 14:59:38 <ArtForz> no, I think thats still a few orders of magnitude
2096 2010-12-16 15:00:05 <toad_> well, spending 2% of your economy on buying electricity is gonna mean you buy an awful lot of electricity, that's my point :|
2097 2010-12-16 15:00:32 <zygf> ah, 174PW
2098 2010-12-16 15:00:39 <EvanR-work> is bitcoin bad for the environment?
2099 2010-12-16 15:01:05 <toad_> that was my case against it yeah
2100 2010-12-16 15:01:30 <toad_> even if you assume no irrational miners, you end up spending inflation * GDP on energy for mining
2101 2010-12-16 15:01:39 <EvanR-work> is this a fundamental physical issue, the computational intensity is the *point* of the system?
2102 2010-12-16 15:01:42 <toad_> except that it's probably not actually GDP you want here, it's the *currency size*
2103 2010-12-16 15:01:46 <toad_> GDP includes multipliers
2104 2010-12-16 15:02:13 <toad_> unfortunately if i remember right the currency size could actually be bigger than the GDP? what's it called in the jargon so i can look it up?
2105 2010-12-16 15:02:30 <ArtForz> well, you also have to take into account that generation drops exponentially at a factor of *0.5 / 4 years
2106 2010-12-16 15:02:45 genjix has left ()
2107 2010-12-16 15:02:57 RichardG has joined
2108 2010-12-16 15:03:03 <toad_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Components_of_US_Money_supply.svg
2109 2010-12-16 15:04:11 <toad_> US nominal GDP is $14T, US money supply is approx $1T
2110 2010-12-16 15:04:43 <EvanR-work> does it make logical sense to try and make bitcoin implementations more efficient?
2111 2010-12-16 15:04:48 <toad_> so if we assume that ratio, we're talking about 18MW for iceland, 92GW for world
2112 2010-12-16 15:04:52 <xelister> EvanR-work: faster? no
2113 2010-12-16 15:04:52 <toad_> at 2% inflation
2114 2010-12-16 15:04:55 <EvanR-work> in terms of power
2115 2010-12-16 15:04:55 <daveandr> gdp is irrelevant.
2116 2010-12-16 15:05:08 <EvanR-work> less power
2117 2010-12-16 15:05:29 <ArtForz> that sounds a lot more reasonable
2118 2010-12-16 15:05:33 <xelister> EvanR-work: well, it means building better mhash/watt machines, at reasonable price, with good speed... seems hard
2119 2010-12-16 15:05:38 <toad_> 92GW is a bit more than the UK's total generating capacity
2120 2010-12-16 15:05:49 <ArtForz> 2007 world nuclear output was something like 400GW
2121 2010-12-16 15:05:53 <toad_> otoh if inflation keeps falling forever, there's nothing to worry about in the long term
2122 2010-12-16 15:06:00 <toad_> will it?
2123 2010-12-16 15:06:22 <ArtForz> well, at some point transaction fees will replace supply inflation as major source of miner income
2124 2010-12-16 15:06:24 <toad_> long term you're gonna want to have currency generation coupled to economic growth i.e. demand, right?
2125 2010-12-16 15:06:44 <daveandr> Nope
2126 2010-12-16 15:06:45 <toad_> so supply inflation is not going to keep falling forever?
2127 2010-12-16 15:06:57 <toad_> daveandr: deflation does really bad things
2128 2010-12-16 15:07:10 <daveandr> No no
2129 2010-12-16 15:07:28 <daveandr> android sucks
2130 2010-12-16 15:07:43 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2131 2010-12-16 15:07:43 <xelister> random remark is random
2132 2010-12-16 15:07:48 <zygf> but they're tied to block generation too so they have the same problem of bigger nodes getting all the money and small nodes having no incentive
2133 2010-12-16 15:08:09 <ArtForz> inflation will keep falling not-quite-forever
2134 2010-12-16 15:08:16 <ArtForz> afair about 2140 it'll drop to 0
2135 2010-12-16 15:08:16 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: transaction fee? how does that work?
2136 2010-12-16 15:08:30 <daveandr> liquidity trap is nonsense
2137 2010-12-16 15:08:33 <Diablo-D3> "Captain Assange of the Starship Wikileaks"
2138 2010-12-16 15:08:33 <toad_> well, what is your basis for assuming that governments won't step in to ensure that the supply of money matches the demand for money i.e. economic growth?
2139 2010-12-16 15:08:41 <ArtForz> normal transaction is 40 btc -> 10 btc, 30 btc
2140 2010-12-16 15:08:55 <ArtForz> fee-carrying transaction is 40 btc -> 10 btc, 29.99 btc
2141 2010-12-16 15:09:10 <ArtForz> miner that includes that transaction in a block claims the left-over 0.01
2142 2010-12-16 15:09:27 <EvanR-work> can users choose?
2143 2010-12-16 15:09:31 <ArtForz> yes
2144 2010-12-16 15:09:36 <EvanR-work> to avoid miners like that?
2145 2010-12-16 15:09:54 <ArtForz> currently most miners follow "the rules"
2146 2010-12-16 15:10:39 <EvanR-work> im not sure how this policy works. the miner puts a fee on his farm, and random people gets charged this and others dont?
2147 2010-12-16 15:10:42 Tester has joined
2148 2010-12-16 15:10:43 <ArtForz> no
2149 2010-12-16 15:10:52 <ArtForz> users choose to pay a fee or not
2150 2010-12-16 15:11:01 <ebel> don't transaction fees just spread money around?
2151 2010-12-16 15:11:02 <ArtForz> miners choose to include/not include transactions in blocks
2152 2010-12-16 15:11:02 <EvanR-work> i see a box for that, you can choose >= 0
2153 2010-12-16 15:11:05 <ArtForz> yes
2154 2010-12-16 15:11:26 <EvanR-work> oh, fee carrying transactions
2155 2010-12-16 15:11:28 <toad_> so bottom line is 92GW at 2%, but that will decline exponentially *IF* people tolerate a mismatch between the money supply and the money demand ... on the other hand if supply expands to meet demand, it could be a lot more; and if people are irrationally leaving their computers on to generate coins etc, it could be a bit more
2156 2010-12-16 15:11:33 <ebel> so transaction fees are just a way to pay people who run miners?
2157 2010-12-16 15:11:41 <EvanR-work> miners could favor transactions with fees attached
2158 2010-12-16 15:11:41 <ArtForz> pretty much
2159 2010-12-16 15:11:46 <ArtForz> they already do
2160 2010-12-16 15:11:50 <EvanR-work> ok
2161 2010-12-16 15:11:59 <toad_> ArtForz: is that pretty much directed at me?
2162 2010-12-16 15:12:08 <ArtForz> no, ebel
2163 2010-12-16 15:12:29 <ArtForz> fee-carrying transactions already get prioritized over "free" transactions by miners
2164 2010-12-16 15:12:56 <toad_> ArtForz: any thoughts?
2165 2010-12-16 15:13:09 * toad_ is gonna go do some work on freenet but would like to have some sort of closure first
2166 2010-12-16 15:13:19 <ebel> so it's a way to ensure your transaction gets added to blocks sooner by paying people who run miners?
2167 2010-12-16 15:13:41 <Diablo-D3> heh freenet
2168 2010-12-16 15:13:41 <ArtForz> ebel: thats the basic idea, but currently it doesnt make much of a difference
2169 2010-12-16 15:13:50 * toad_ does not understand why miners are involved in transactions that don't involve creating new blocks ...
2170 2010-12-16 15:13:56 <ArtForz> toad_: sounds correct, but I'm not quite sure
2171 2010-12-16 15:14:13 <Diablo-D3> hrm, does bitcoin automatically connect to a local tor node if its on?
2172 2010-12-16 15:14:18 <Diablo-D3> or do people have to tell it to?
2173 2010-12-16 15:14:21 <ArtForz> well, transactions are stored in blocks
2174 2010-12-16 15:14:34 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3: tell it, via proxy setting
2175 2010-12-16 15:14:41 <ArtForz> theres a limit on max size of a single block
2176 2010-12-16 15:14:46 <MT`AwAy> if the port is 9050, bitcoin will assume the proxy is tor
2177 2010-12-16 15:14:56 <ArtForz> we're still orders of magnitude away from that limit
2178 2010-12-16 15:15:12 <EvanR-work> ah so everyone will be included as fast as possible
2179 2010-12-16 15:15:16 <EvanR-work> fee or not
2180 2010-12-16 15:15:21 <ArtForz> yes
2181 2010-12-16 15:15:42 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: miners are still accepting sub-cent transaction without fees?
2182 2010-12-16 15:15:47 <Tester> Think of the New Block as a Carnival Ride - It is the Car on the Roller Coaster being Loaded at the Current Time - Loaded with Transactions
2183 2010-12-16 15:15:53 <ArtForz> nope
2184 2010-12-16 15:15:56 <ArtForz> at least I don't
2185 2010-12-16 15:16:04 <toad_> so only miners can make blocks?
2186 2010-12-16 15:16:05 <MT`AwAy> [00:13:45] <EvanR-work> ah so everyone will be included as fast as possible <- so this is not exact
2187 2010-12-16 15:16:05 <ebel> are there any other cryptocurrencies which aren't based on having to do blocks, i.e. would allow "printing more money"?
2188 2010-12-16 15:16:07 <ArtForz> yes
2189 2010-12-16 15:16:19 <toad_> a new block is started when a coin is minted, and it includes all the transactions that have happened?
2190 2010-12-16 15:16:23 <ArtForz> yep
2191 2010-12-16 15:16:28 <Diablo-D3> ebel: blocks is just a fancy way of saying transaction (in the db sense, not in the monetary sense)
2192 2010-12-16 15:16:29 <toad_> I see, cool
2193 2010-12-16 15:16:33 <toad_> cya folks
2194 2010-12-16 15:16:44 <ArtForz> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=block
2195 2010-12-16 15:17:05 * toad_ is still not sure whether i think bitcoin is acceptable, but i certainly find it fascinating
2196 2010-12-16 15:17:09 toad_ has left ("Konversation terminated!")
2197 2010-12-16 15:17:15 <ebel> well I mean a cryptocurrency I could set up myself and I could "print" 1,000 units if I want? Similar to how fiat currencies work?
2198 2010-12-16 15:17:17 <Tester> A New Block is always being worked on in Hopes a New Solution will be found (creating coins as a reward)
2199 2010-12-16 15:17:52 <EvanR-work> ebel: wouldnt that defeat the purpose of using it as currency, if anyone can make unlimited amounts of it
2200 2010-12-16 15:18:06 <Tester> New Blocks are More like a Throttle they are tied to coins as a side benefit
2201 2010-12-16 15:18:16 <MT`AwAy> EvanR-work: I think he wants to be the only one allowed to print units :D
2202 2010-12-16 15:18:22 <EvanR-work> oh
2203 2010-12-16 15:18:25 <EvanR-work> that makes more sense
2204 2010-12-16 15:18:27 <ebel> EvanR-work: well it doesn't stop people using EUR :P
2205 2010-12-16 15:18:30 <EvanR-work> in ebel we trust
2206 2010-12-16 15:18:50 <MT`AwAy> ebel: you could setup a crypto system where you can give entities a certificate to emit your currency
2207 2010-12-16 15:19:02 <ebel> I'm trying to conceptualize how it/if it's possible to do this 'make your own money' system while also being somehow decentralised.
2208 2010-12-16 15:19:07 <Tester> New Blocks are like a Roller Coaster Car or Ski Area Tram - Waiting to be loaded
2209 2010-12-16 15:19:09 <MT`AwAy> so people who trust you would trust those entities' credits
2210 2010-12-16 15:20:02 <EvanR-work> you can make as many 'IOU's as you want
2211 2010-12-16 15:20:05 <EvanR-work> signed by you
2212 2010-12-16 15:20:08 <Tester> Miners are busy looking for a Hard Solution (hitting the target) when found THEY get rights to create coins and Start that TRAM
2213 2010-12-16 15:20:28 <MT`AwAy> Tester: and will start it even if it's empty
2214 2010-12-16 15:20:56 <EvanR-work> heh. if no one rides, how do you make a profit ;)
2215 2010-12-16 15:21:01 <Tester> The FIRST transaction in the Block is the Generate Coins
2216 2010-12-16 15:21:03 <EvanR-work> this is a very funny tram
2217 2010-12-16 15:21:31 <ebel> I believe eCache does similar to what I'm suggesting,
2218 2010-12-16 15:21:34 Amiga4000 is now known as amiga4000
2219 2010-12-16 15:21:45 <Tester> The coins that start the Tram Car are pointed at the Miner
2220 2010-12-16 15:22:01 <ebel> But (from what I read) if their website goes down, then you basically can't do any transactions, which seems stupid.
2221 2010-12-16 15:22:27 <EvanR-work> ebel: then its not distributed, and you cant make money. they can
2222 2010-12-16 15:22:41 <ebel> (well not stupid, but a flaw in their scheme. I wonder is there a way to fix it)(
2223 2010-12-16 15:22:43 <Tester> There are cases where a Miner loses their coins
2224 2010-12-16 15:23:19 <Diablo-D3> hrrrrm
2225 2010-12-16 15:23:23 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin leaks information
2226 2010-12-16 15:23:29 <Diablo-D3> its using socks4 and resolving dns itself
2227 2010-12-16 15:23:38 <EvanR-work> not surprising
2228 2010-12-16 15:23:45 <Tester> Using the Tram Analogy many people could launch a Tram and they meet up the mountain and derail the loser
2229 2010-12-16 15:23:49 <Diablo-D3> Dec 16 10:19:11.823 [warn] Your application (using socks4 to port 6667) is giving Tor only an IP address. Applications that do DNS resolves themselves may leak information. Consider using Socks4A (e.g. via privoxy or socat) instead. For more information, please see http://wiki.noreply.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter/TorFAQ#SOCKSAndDNS.
2230 2010-12-16 15:23:56 <ArtForz> yes
2231 2010-12-16 15:24:02 <ArtForz> we should convert to socks4a
2232 2010-12-16 15:24:08 <Diablo-D3> well, or 5
2233 2010-12-16 15:24:14 <Diablo-D3> you need 5 for ipv6 iirc
2234 2010-12-16 15:24:16 <ebel> EvanR-work: I can still make money if I use Euro. It's just too centralised.
2235 2010-12-16 15:24:21 <ArtForz> 4a should be fine for TOR
2236 2010-12-16 15:24:25 <Tester> Transactions are MOVED to the winning TRAM
2237 2010-12-16 15:24:34 <EvanR-work> ebel: you cant really make euros
2238 2010-12-16 15:24:42 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: 4a or 5 works, but bitcoin needs to support ipv6
2239 2010-12-16 15:24:45 <Diablo-D3> ergo, 5.
2240 2010-12-16 15:24:50 <Tester> The Miner for the abandoned Tram loses their coins - their Tram lost
2241 2010-12-16 15:25:04 <Diablo-D3> Tester: you're not even making sense
2242 2010-12-16 15:25:23 <EvanR-work> this sounds exerpts like bitcoin bible
2243 2010-12-16 15:25:28 <EvanR-work> from the
2244 2010-12-16 15:25:29 <ArtForz> while we're at it, overhaul the addr message system to be able to announce ipv6 and .option hidden service nodes
2245 2010-12-16 15:25:32 <ebel> EvanR-work: True I don't "make" euro. But I can earn money and spend it. :P
2246 2010-12-16 15:25:40 <EvanR-work> same with bitcoin
2247 2010-12-16 15:25:49 <ArtForz> *.onion I mean (duh)
2248 2010-12-16 15:26:00 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: glad you volunteered
2249 2010-12-16 15:26:18 * ebel really should read more cryptography and zero-knowledge stuff
2250 2010-12-16 15:26:22 <amiga4000> and .b32.i2p ;-)
2251 2010-12-16 15:26:23 <xelister> ArtForz: would be nice if connetion would be arbitrary strings, like say tor:somehiddenservice.onion and ipv6:... and freenet:USK@.... and so on
2252 2010-12-16 15:26:26 <ArtForz> hostnames in addr messages would also be kinda useful for us people stuck on dynamic IP
2253 2010-12-16 15:26:31 <MT`AwAy> [00:24:05] <ebel> EvanR-work: True I don't "make" euro. But I can earn money and spend it. :P <- you could earn bitcoins by doing something useful :p
2254 2010-12-16 15:26:44 <xelister> yeah amiga4000, and i2p:...
2255 2010-12-16 15:26:51 <EvanR-work> it would be interesting to hammer out a working roller coaster analogy
2256 2010-12-16 15:26:54 <xelister> and then just implement plugins for various protocols
2257 2010-12-16 15:27:31 <Tester> A similar analogy is a TRAIN and making a complete train to head across country
2258 2010-12-16 15:27:55 <Tester> The New Blocl is like the current Coal Car being loaded
2259 2010-12-16 15:27:59 <Tester> Block
2260 2010-12-16 15:28:16 <Tester> Transactions are the coal
2261 2010-12-16 15:28:16 <EvanR-work> now bitcoin really sounds bad for the environment
2262 2010-12-16 15:28:39 <Tester> The Block Chain is like a string of train cars
2263 2010-12-16 15:28:48 <Diablo-D3> Tester: no, its like people flipping coins
2264 2010-12-16 15:28:52 <EvanR-work> but a coal car analogy might help it gain traction in the current america ;)
2265 2010-12-16 15:28:56 <Diablo-D3> or really
2266 2010-12-16 15:29:09 <Diablo-D3> rolling D2**256 dice
2267 2010-12-16 15:29:28 <Tester> No the Flipping Coins is part of the Work on Finding a Target
2268 2010-12-16 15:30:07 <Tester> Working on Finding a Target is a THROTTLE to prevent flooding of the train tracks with cars (blocks)
2269 2010-12-16 15:30:23 <EvanR-work> what stops one miner from 'completing' a block with fake transactions in it? is it checked against that block completed on another system?
2270 2010-12-16 15:30:56 <kiba> hey folks
2271 2010-12-16 15:31:01 <xelister> wadup kiba
2272 2010-12-16 15:31:05 <Tester> YEP Fakes can be sent (like a bogus train car) and eventually DERAILED
2273 2010-12-16 15:31:26 <xelister> Tester: do you have a train fetish
2274 2010-12-16 15:31:38 <xelister> I know rule 34, but this is really
2275 2010-12-16 15:31:40 <ebel> would it be possible to crowd out the bitcoin network? Start enough nodes (2,000?) that would give you free BitCoins?
2276 2010-12-16 15:31:40 <MT`AwAy> kiba: mind if I pm you? :D
2277 2010-12-16 15:31:49 <ArtForz> no
2278 2010-12-16 15:31:57 <MT`AwAy> ebel: where would those nodes get their bitcoins ?
2279 2010-12-16 15:32:12 <xelister> ebel: fake? some root parts of chain are embbed in the client program
2280 2010-12-16 15:32:16 <ArtForz> yep
2281 2010-12-16 15:32:28 <Tester> Your Coins are Rewards for Putting Train Cars (Blocks) on the train and NOT derailed cars
2282 2010-12-16 15:32:35 * ebel really should read more about bitcoin generation before straying into areas he knows very little about :P
2283 2010-12-16 15:32:38 <ArtForz> blocks up to 74000 are set in stone
2284 2010-12-16 15:32:54 <ArtForz> and clients ignore blocks containing invalid transactions
2285 2010-12-16 15:33:25 <Tester> It takes TIME to settle out the last few blocks being added
2286 2010-12-16 15:33:43 <xelister> really we need to buy and send Tester a copy of transport tycon delux
2287 2010-12-16 15:33:48 <MT`AwAy> could we stop talking about trains, that's starting to look really weird
2288 2010-12-16 15:34:03 <xelister> ha this channel is always awesome >_>
2289 2010-12-16 15:34:07 <ArtForz> yes, what about planes and automobiles?
2290 2010-12-16 15:34:16 <xelister> ArtForz: planes -> terrorists
2291 2010-12-16 15:34:18 <EvanR-work> blocks are like planes, invalid planes crash
2292 2010-12-16 15:34:24 <EvanR-work> or fly into office buildings
2293 2010-12-16 15:34:24 <xelister> into WTC
2294 2010-12-16 15:34:41 <MT`AwAy> you hate american's freedom
2295 2010-12-16 15:34:48 <xelister> hey that already covers the jews and fbi part of analogy
2296 2010-12-16 15:34:50 * xelister j/k :
2297 2010-12-16 15:34:51 <xelister> :P
2298 2010-12-16 15:35:30 <EvanR-work> i would like a working analogy
2299 2010-12-16 15:35:43 <Tester> Many Miners are working on a New Block at the same time and may all Find a Solution (Hit the Target) near the same time
2300 2010-12-16 15:36:18 <xelister> this reminds me of that time I went to taiwant with a friend to look to find a soluition to hit the target. looking for new blocks didnt take long
2301 2010-12-16 15:36:21 <Tester> Fakes are detected because they do not match what the Many Miners all produce
2302 2010-12-16 15:36:25 <ArtForz> okay, so if blocks are like flying cars loaded into trains, who shot the dog?
2303 2010-12-16 15:36:34 <xelister> ArtForz: osama?
2304 2010-12-16 15:37:19 <Tester> The system thrives on MANY honest participants
2305 2010-12-16 15:37:52 <xelister> yeap, we need many good users of the system
2306 2010-12-16 15:38:01 Auctus has left ("Leaving")
2307 2010-12-16 15:38:07 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2308 2010-12-16 15:38:37 <Tester> You need a decent Linux implemetation - the code is really crufty
2309 2010-12-16 15:39:57 Abhish has joined
2310 2010-12-16 15:40:06 <ebel> so could you outnumder the honest participants with your own dishonest participants?
2311 2010-12-16 15:40:15 <ArtForz> not quite
2312 2010-12-16 15:40:24 <ArtForz> you still can't break transaction rules
2313 2010-12-16 15:40:29 <EvanR-work> does the client overwrite the wallet file each time? or does it have sanity and writes to a second file first
2314 2010-12-16 15:40:47 <ArtForz> it uses berkeley DB for wallet
2315 2010-12-16 15:41:07 <EvanR-work> so it changes parts in-place
2316 2010-12-16 15:41:32 <ArtForz> yes, with a transactional journal
2317 2010-12-16 15:41:36 <EvanR-work> ok
2318 2010-12-16 15:41:50 <EvanR-work> whats this warning about not closing bitcoin during a transaction or something
2319 2010-12-16 15:42:32 <ArtForz> well, it's not nice, but it shouldn't be able to cause issues
2320 2010-12-16 15:42:34 <Tester> Outnumber Honest ? Hard because Transactions come from All Over (Honest) People
2321 2010-12-16 15:42:38 <ArtForz> if it does, thats a bug
2322 2010-12-16 15:44:14 <Tester> Transactions are being loaded into Blocks WHILE the Target is being Solved
2323 2010-12-16 15:44:39 <xelister> What it is with the USE of UPPERCASES all the time
2324 2010-12-16 15:44:42 <Tester> All those transactions would have to be faked
2325 2010-12-16 15:45:41 Guest31827 is now known as sneak
2326 2010-12-16 15:45:44 sneak has quit (Changing host)
2327 2010-12-16 15:45:44 sneak has joined
2328 2010-12-16 15:45:49 <sneak> hi guys
2329 2010-12-16 15:45:51 <sneak> what's up
2330 2010-12-16 15:46:09 <Tester> Solving the Target is part of the Throttle to pace Block Creation
2331 2010-12-16 15:46:28 <sneak> Capitalizing Extra Letters when they are not Really Necessary is a little bit Annoying
2332 2010-12-16 15:46:41 <sneak> or are you german
2333 2010-12-16 15:46:47 <Tester> How old are people on here 12 ?
2334 2010-12-16 15:46:53 <sneak> no i'm 14
2335 2010-12-16 15:46:56 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: RE: support for tor/socks4a/etc... Know anybody who knows enough about network stuff to put together a patch? I'd love to see a bitcoin that knew how to shuttle transactions between the Internet and tor/i2p.
2336 2010-12-16 15:47:16 <sneak> gavinandresen: not necessary, you can just run it under torify
2337 2010-12-16 15:47:18 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: all the code has to do is have an if for the dns
2338 2010-12-16 15:47:37 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: if(proxyed) { do dns request through socks }
2339 2010-12-16 15:47:42 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: ... and it'd be cool to teach it to talk to more than one network interface, so my Amazon EC2 node could have extra-fast free connections to other bitcoin nodes also running in EC2....
2340 2010-12-16 15:48:16 <sneak> gavinandresen: there are about a million other things that would be more useful than that beforehand, like a real bootstrapping process
2341 2010-12-16 15:48:36 <sneak> does it still have the ip address of the ircd hardcoded in
2342 2010-12-16 15:48:42 <ArtForz> we already have plenty stable nodes available for boostrapping
2343 2010-12-16 15:48:59 <Tester> A decent Linux implementation would be nice - the current distribution is not production quality
2344 2010-12-16 15:49:11 <ArtForz> we could just fix the hardcoded list and lose IRC
2345 2010-12-16 15:49:19 <ArtForz> dunno, seems decent enough
2346 2010-12-16 15:49:22 DELTA9 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2347 2010-12-16 15:49:30 <sneak> i think a simple web tracker a la tor is the best way
2348 2010-12-16 15:49:38 <Tester> Does not work out of the box
2349 2010-12-16 15:49:45 <ArtForz> huh?
2350 2010-12-16 15:50:19 <Tester> Look at http://LaunchPad.Net for example production code and packaging
2351 2010-12-16 15:50:57 <gavinandresen> Tester: you willing to help out? We need people who have done *nix packaging to step up and actually to it....
2352 2010-12-16 15:51:07 <Tester> Also using C++ long term is a non-starter
2353 2010-12-16 15:51:08 RichardG has joined
2354 2010-12-16 15:51:14 <ArtForz> yes
2355 2010-12-16 15:51:31 <Tester> help out ?
2356 2010-12-16 15:51:38 <Tester> sure
2357 2010-12-16 15:51:46 <Tester> rewrite the whole thing ?
2358 2010-12-16 15:51:51 <gavinandresen> (and the hard part is herding the cats-- we've got at least two half-done efforts going on....)
2359 2010-12-16 15:51:58 <ArtForz> three I think
2360 2010-12-16 15:52:08 <ArtForz> and someone is doing something in java
2361 2010-12-16 15:52:21 <gavinandresen> Three efforts to package, or three to rewrite?
2362 2010-12-16 15:52:26 <ArtForz> three rewrites
2363 2010-12-16 15:52:47 <Tester> Look at http://LaunchPad.Net for example project management
2364 2010-12-16 15:53:10 <Tester> you will also attract serious developers
2365 2010-12-16 15:53:34 <Tester> It is a very good system
2366 2010-12-16 15:53:42 <Tester> Great architecture
2367 2010-12-16 15:53:49 <ArtForz> meh, launchpad is overrated
2368 2010-12-16 15:54:32 <Tester> A quick rewrite may be easier than launchpad because it is a lot of project management
2369 2010-12-16 15:55:10 <Tester> lunchpad brings in requirements writing planning documentation multi-lingual
2370 2010-12-16 15:55:15 <Abhish> Eh, project management helps a project get managed...
2371 2010-12-16 15:55:18 <Tester> launchpad
2372 2010-12-16 15:55:30 <gavinandresen> launchpad == bazaar? AyeYiYi! Am I doomed to learning EVERY SINGLE FRICKING SOURCE CONTROL SYSTEM IN THE UNIVERSE?!?!!!
2373 2010-12-16 15:56:14 <johndrinkwater> try http://gitorious.org/ then
2374 2010-12-16 15:56:18 <Abhish> If you are a core developerou probably have a strong say in that.... y
2375 2010-12-16 15:56:40 <Tester> Launchpad is the top platform the pros use
2376 2010-12-16 15:56:55 <johndrinkwater> ..
2377 2010-12-16 15:57:01 <Tester> Launchpad is not for everyone - neither is NASA
2378 2010-12-16 15:57:01 <johndrinkwater> which pros are those?
2379 2010-12-16 15:57:25 <ArtForz> the true scotsman pros (duh)
2380 2010-12-16 15:57:58 <Tester> A small internet company with a G uses launchpad as highly paid pros
2381 2010-12-16 15:57:59 <gavinandresen> First I've heard of launchpad, and I've been coding professionally since 1988......
2382 2010-12-16 15:58:10 <Abhish> I think a big way to help boost development interest would be a way to integrate bitcoin with other programs and services... OpenSim could be a good example of that.
2383 2010-12-16 15:58:38 <ArtForz> yep
2384 2010-12-16 15:59:06 <Tester> Launchpad also gives you something else - reduction of library mis-matches and dependencies - it does all that
2385 2010-12-16 15:59:08 <ebel> launchpad is used heavily by ubuntu
2386 2010-12-16 15:59:08 <johndrinkwater> gavinandresen, its Canonicals (Ubuntu shapers) sourceforge alike
2387 2010-12-16 15:59:24 <ebel> so if you want it in ubuntu, launchpad makes that easier
2388 2010-12-16 15:59:39 <johndrinkwater> sourceforge, berlios, github, gitorious. more than enough project hosts to find.
2389 2010-12-16 15:59:52 <Abhish> Good point.
2390 2010-12-16 16:00:01 <Tester> Launchpad is the Google-backed platform
2391 2010-12-16 16:00:23 <johndrinkwater> no it isnt
2392 2010-12-16 16:00:28 <johndrinkwater> code.google.com is
2393 2010-12-16 16:00:30 <gavinandresen> bitcoin is sourceforge right now. I'd like to see Satoshi switch to git, either on sourceforge or github.
2394 2010-12-16 16:00:46 <Tester> Google contracts with the launchpad pros
2395 2010-12-16 16:00:49 <ArtForz> yep, moving to git would be nice
2396 2010-12-16 16:01:07 * johndrinkwater would also like git used
2397 2010-12-16 16:01:28 <Tester> Launchpad gets you out of the library pick and choose nightmare
2398 2010-12-16 16:01:51 Toadyonps3 has joined
2399 2010-12-16 16:02:12 <Tester> You then leverage the latest library development
2400 2010-12-16 16:02:21 Granttt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2401 2010-12-16 16:02:26 <ArtForz> btw, I think the current GUI client design is very 90s
2402 2010-12-16 16:02:34 * gavinandresen believes in using old, crufty, time-tested dependencies....
2403 2010-12-16 16:02:36 <johndrinkwater> mhm
2404 2010-12-16 16:02:40 <johndrinkwater> it needs more Like buttons.
2405 2010-12-16 16:02:46 <Tester> Launchpad does nightly builds on zillions of servers and binary targets
2406 2010-12-16 16:02:52 <ArtForz> no, less heavy client and more daemon + frontend
2407 2010-12-16 16:03:11 <ArtForz> so does every distro build farm
2408 2010-12-16 16:03:35 <appamatto> Howdy all.
2409 2010-12-16 16:03:45 <johndrinkwater> mhm, and a recode around that would help Android port. assuming its kept in java language
2410 2010-12-16 16:03:52 <Tester> Strangely Launchpad was not open source for their own platform but last summer the G company put the pressure on
2411 2010-12-16 16:04:55 <Tester> but why would people want to CodeFork launchpad ? it sort of defeats the purpose
2412 2010-12-16 16:05:30 <ArtForz> yes, centralized is doubleplusgood!
2413 2010-12-16 16:05:34 <Tester> CodeFork of bitcoin is not likely - a rewrite is likely
2414 2010-12-16 16:05:34 <johndrinkwater> the purpose would be to run your own, and federate the network of project hostsâ¦
2415 2010-12-16 16:05:56 <gavinandresen> Tester: so... go for it! Run bzr-svn on Launchpad and start creating nightly builds....
2416 2010-12-16 16:06:25 <EvanR-work> base 58 or whatever would be pretty easy in haskell ;)
2417 2010-12-16 16:06:29 <Tester> go for it ? first a rework of the pieces and project planning
2418 2010-12-16 16:06:38 <gavinandresen> You might want to coordinate with cdecker, and search the forums for the folks doing the cmake and debian builds
2419 2010-12-16 16:07:06 <gavinandresen> Tester: rework what pieces?
2420 2010-12-16 16:07:33 <Tester> example - split out the core Miner code - the stuff Solving the Target
2421 2010-12-16 16:07:34 <Abhish> An andoid app could really help. Imagine just bumping phones with someone to pay them bitcoins.
2422 2010-12-16 16:07:55 <gavinandresen> Tester: doesn't it make sense to do the reworking AFTER you've got a good build environment up and running?
2423 2010-12-16 16:08:22 <Tester> AFTER ? not sure the current code is really crufty
2424 2010-12-16 16:08:41 <nanotube> gavinandresen: i recall you had a git-svn repo of the bitcoin source tree... where is that again? :)
2425 2010-12-16 16:08:46 <ArtForz> its not THAT bad, some refactoring and you can actually figure out WTF is going on
2426 2010-12-16 16:08:47 RG has joined
2427 2010-12-16 16:08:48 <Tester> sliding into Launchpad is not smooth with crufty stuff
2428 2010-12-16 16:08:56 <gavinandresen> nanotube: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git
2429 2010-12-16 16:08:59 <johndrinkwater> Abhish, bumping? Pah! NFC will be all the rage soon.
2430 2010-12-16 16:09:04 <nanotube> gavinandresen: thanks :)
2431 2010-12-16 16:09:09 <Abhish> What do you feel is the true primary impediment to development?
2432 2010-12-16 16:09:22 <Abhish> johndrinkwater NFC? Not familiar?
2433 2010-12-16 16:09:23 <ArtForz> "works well enough for me"
2434 2010-12-16 16:09:32 <Tester> impediment ? packaging and dependencies
2435 2010-12-16 16:09:42 <Abhish> Ah.
2436 2010-12-16 16:09:57 <johndrinkwater> Abhish, near-field communication, used in contactless payment systems
2437 2010-12-16 16:09:59 <Tester> has to work out of the box on mainline distros
2438 2010-12-16 16:10:15 <Abhish> Ah, gotcha. Thats what I thought, but wasn't totally sure.
2439 2010-12-16 16:10:32 <Tester> it is clearly a Windows-centric thing and Linux an afterthought
2440 2010-12-16 16:10:36 <johndrinkwater> Nexus S has it built in, HTC phones coming out next year will too.. seems new fad
2441 2010-12-16 16:10:38 <Abhish> The bump is more tactile though... people tend to like that.
2442 2010-12-16 16:10:42 <johndrinkwater> mhm
2443 2010-12-16 16:11:05 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|!pool
2444 2010-12-16 16:11:05 <RichardG> Could not obtain pooled miner status - log empty? Last log line: Requesting a new block 1292515773000
2445 2010-12-16 16:11:07 <Abhish> Is the code too monolithic?
2446 2010-12-16 16:11:17 <Tester> if it started as HeadLess and just a daemon then it would be smoother
2447 2010-12-16 16:11:51 <Abhish> Then you could port it easier for different GUI frontends.
2448 2010-12-16 16:12:02 <Abhish> And greater extensibility.
2449 2010-12-16 16:12:09 <Tester> gui should be a thousand miles away
2450 2010-12-16 16:12:27 Granttt has joined
2451 2010-12-16 16:12:28 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
2452 2010-12-16 16:12:28 Granttt has joined
2453 2010-12-16 16:12:32 <gavinandresen> Tester: ok, so start with bitcoind, and ignore the UI stuff....
2454 2010-12-16 16:12:37 <Abhish> Agreed. Monolithic design seems like a very bad idea.
2455 2010-12-16 16:13:01 <Tester> that is a common result when Windows is the start
2456 2010-12-16 16:13:10 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|!pool
2457 2010-12-16 16:13:11 <RichardG> Could not obtain pooled miner status - log empty? Last log line: Requesting a new block 1292515899093
2458 2010-12-16 16:13:48 <Tester> there are big projects that start as Visual Basic then get a rewrite in MS C++ then try to make it to Linux mainstream and ughhhhhly
2459 2010-12-16 16:13:56 <Abhish> True. I honestly don't see bitcoin spreadin via Windows. The geeks will have to lead the charge... no pun intended.
2460 2010-12-16 16:14:28 <Tester> MySQL is also essential
2461 2010-12-16 16:14:39 <gavinandresen> Too monolithic for what?
2462 2010-12-16 16:14:40 <Tester> for client wallets
2463 2010-12-16 16:15:17 <ArtForz> fuck hell no
2464 2010-12-16 16:15:30 <Tester> LAMP
2465 2010-12-16 16:15:42 <ArtForz> I'd rather use clay tablets than mysql
2466 2010-12-16 16:15:44 * johndrinkwater demotes Tester in his head.
2467 2010-12-16 16:15:45 <EvanR-work> what is the matter with you, mysql
2468 2010-12-16 16:16:21 <Tester> actually the database should not matter it should be modular
2469 2010-12-16 16:16:27 <gavinandresen> ... next he'll tell us the front-end aught to be PHP......
2470 2010-12-16 16:16:34 <Tester> is the current distro modular ?
2471 2010-12-16 16:17:20 <ArtForz> well, the "DB" for blocks/addrs/... doesnt matter much
2472 2010-12-16 16:17:34 <gavinandresen> The current bitcoin is evolving from a windows client Satoshi wrote to prove that the idea could work at all into... something else....
2473 2010-12-16 16:17:53 <Tester> yep evolving is common
2474 2010-12-16 16:17:59 <Tester> see it all the time
2475 2010-12-16 16:18:12 <gavinandresen> It's not entirely clear what. I agree-- I think web-based bitcoin services are the way to go for end-users.
2476 2010-12-16 16:18:19 <gavinandresen> That's why I've been working on the JSON-RPC api.
2477 2010-12-16 16:18:31 <Tester> can show you a magnificent redo of XBox Live Network that started in VB
2478 2010-12-16 16:19:03 <Tester> Amazon likes web services
2479 2010-12-16 16:19:05 <ArtForz> yeah, I think a few extensions to the RPC api and it should be possible to write a proper frontend for bitcoind
2480 2010-12-16 16:19:28 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: agreed.
2481 2010-12-16 16:19:47 <Tester> see you folks are doing it
2482 2010-12-16 16:19:59 <Tester> breaking it up
2483 2010-12-16 16:20:06 <Tester> refactoring sort of
2484 2010-12-16 16:20:27 <Tester> all the while the blocks are being added
2485 2010-12-16 16:20:40 <gavinandresen> I WOULD like to see nightly linux builds and better linux packaging. I just don't want to spend time learning cmake or rpm-package or whatever that would take to actually make it happen.....
2486 2010-12-16 16:21:07 <gavinandresen> I'm not wasting time refactoring-- just exposing functionality via a clean API.
2487 2010-12-16 16:21:19 <Tester> http://voltdb.com/
2488 2010-12-16 16:21:37 <tcatm> Shouldn't it be trivial package the source tarball into a .deb?
2489 2010-12-16 16:21:46 <ArtForz> not exactly
2490 2010-12-16 16:22:00 <ArtForz> we're depending on wx 2.9
2491 2010-12-16 16:22:13 <Tester> the current Linux distro suffers the same as many Linux orphans
2492 2010-12-16 16:22:38 <tcatm> Well, we could just add wx 2.9 as a dependency.
2493 2010-12-16 16:23:18 <Tester> It will be ported to work with VoltDB for the Block Chain
2494 2010-12-16 16:23:58 <ArtForz> well, thats a problem, afaik most distros still dont have wx 2.9
2495 2010-12-16 16:24:33 <ArtForz> and I dont put it high on my to-do list, bitcoind already doesnt depend on wx anymore
2496 2010-12-16 16:24:36 <Tester> all of the distro stuff gets sorted out with something like Launchpad
2497 2010-12-16 16:24:37 <ebel> tcatm: wx 2.9 isn't in debian/ubuntu
2498 2010-12-16 16:24:49 <ebel> I have compiled bitcoind command line on ubuntu
2499 2010-12-16 16:24:58 <ebel> ergo it's possible to patch it and deb-ify it
2500 2010-12-16 16:25:15 <ArtForz> yes, but impossible to get into main repos
2501 2010-12-16 16:25:20 <Tester> OK why not produce the result of that patching ?
2502 2010-12-16 16:25:37 <ebel> Tester: it's on my todo list :P
2503 2010-12-16 16:26:02 <ebel> ArtForz: why not get it into the main repos ? :) Once it's packaged it's a case of bugging people
2504 2010-12-16 16:26:43 <Tester> just a suggestion - drop it on Launchpad and let people work it over
2505 2010-12-16 16:27:06 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|!pool
2506 2010-12-16 16:27:07 <RichardG> Could not obtain pooled miner status - log empty? Last log line: Requesting a new block 1292516732656
2507 2010-12-16 16:27:14 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|what's wrong with the miner
2508 2010-12-16 16:27:17 <Tester> but they will be brutal
2509 2010-12-16 16:27:20 <ebel> launchpad has some nice PPA stuff
2510 2010-12-16 16:27:35 <ebel> basicallly "Set up your own ubuntu repo!"
2511 2010-12-16 16:28:07 <Tester> and when libraries change you get all that for free no effort
2512 2010-12-16 16:28:56 genjix has joined
2513 2010-12-16 16:28:59 <genjix> www.linode.com they're giving away $100 of account credit
2514 2010-12-16 16:29:01 genjix has left ()
2515 2010-12-16 16:29:26 <Tester> Bitcoin is a great system it deserves the best packaging
2516 2010-12-16 16:29:41 <ebel> Tester: no, you still need to update your package if the libraries change in an incompatible way.
2517 2010-12-16 16:30:08 <Tester> Not to worry there will be plenty of people to help do that "update"
2518 2010-12-16 16:30:15 albatross_ has joined
2519 2010-12-16 16:30:28 <Tester> and wiki documents
2520 2010-12-16 16:30:37 <Tester> and audit trails
2521 2010-12-16 16:30:41 <Bitcoinz> A question: Does firewire has something to do with bitcoinmining?
2522 2010-12-16 16:30:59 <Tester> firewire ?
2523 2010-12-16 16:31:05 <Tester> huh?
2524 2010-12-16 16:31:06 <Bitcoinz> Because i need to know if i need to install it in my configuration
2525 2010-12-16 16:31:11 <ArtForz> wtf?
2526 2010-12-16 16:31:19 <Bitcoinz> with two 5970's
2527 2010-12-16 16:31:24 <Bitcoinz> sorry?
2528 2010-12-16 16:31:34 <MT`AwAy> firewire is something you could compare to usb
2529 2010-12-16 16:31:43 <MT`AwAy> wtf does that have to do with your GPU ?
2530 2010-12-16 16:31:46 <xelister> I uphold what I said
2531 2010-12-16 16:31:56 <xelister> ati software/drivers suck cocks
2532 2010-12-16 16:32:11 <ArtForz> yes
2533 2010-12-16 16:32:20 <xelister> do few VT switch vt7 vt8 vt1, and you are almost guaranteed to get some bug, or glitchy graphics or hang
2534 2010-12-16 16:32:35 <Bitcoinz> that's why i was asking.. if it HAD anything to do with my GPU:)
2535 2010-12-16 16:32:45 <xelister> how long before Amd gets QA on their asses and they release quality linux driver
2536 2010-12-16 16:32:46 <Tester> there may be Miner custom work that uses firewire or other transports to distribute the mining
2537 2010-12-16 16:32:54 <ArtForz> but considering nvidia totally sucks for mining, lesser of two evils
2538 2010-12-16 16:32:59 <nanotube> Bitcoinz: maybe you mean crossfire?
2539 2010-12-16 16:33:16 <ArtForz> xelister: dunno, shortly after hell freezes over?
2540 2010-12-16 16:33:17 <Tester> crossfire would make more sense - multi-core
2541 2010-12-16 16:33:19 <xelister> Bitcoinz: yea crossfire is the shit you need to disable :P its included in my help.manual
2542 2010-12-16 16:33:30 <xelister> ArtForz: so you think Amd overseeing will not remedy this?
2543 2010-12-16 16:33:43 <ArtForz> afaik official AMD party line is to pray that the OS driver gets into a usable state soon
2544 2010-12-16 16:33:45 <Bitcoinz> yeah sorry.. i mean crossfire ...sorry
2545 2010-12-16 16:34:16 <Tester> that is another topic - pulling out the really esoteric code
2546 2010-12-16 16:34:23 <Tester> asm code ?
2547 2010-12-16 16:34:32 <ArtForz> we're already working on that
2548 2010-12-16 16:34:53 <Tester> How many people need to do 16 core mining ?
2549 2010-12-16 16:34:55 <ArtForz> we already have a RPC interface for miners in place
2550 2010-12-16 16:35:20 genjix has joined
2551 2010-12-16 16:35:24 <ArtForz> 16 cores? how about 53 GPUs?
2552 2010-12-16 16:35:34 <Tester> yeah I know
2553 2010-12-16 16:35:48 <Tester> NetFPGA.org
2554 2010-12-16 16:36:46 <Bitcoinz> I'm planning on bying XFX HD5970 Black Edition... with OpenGL Versie 3.2.. 2 slots, crossfire ready
2555 2010-12-16 16:36:53 <Tester> by the way VoltDB is an in-memory database ideal for the Block Chain
2556 2010-12-16 16:37:13 <Bitcoinz> but i let de crosfire disabled
2557 2010-12-16 16:37:52 <Bitcoinz> xelister, thanks, i oversaw your comment
2558 2010-12-16 16:38:40 <albatross_> ;;bc,calc 685000
2559 2010-12-16 16:38:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 685000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 21 hours, 20 minutes, and 20 seconds
2560 2010-12-16 16:38:41 <ArtForz> VirtexII? seriously?
2561 2010-12-16 16:38:56 <albatross_> ;;bc,calc 530000
2562 2010-12-16 16:38:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 530000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 day, 3 hours, 34 minutes, and 46 seconds
2563 2010-12-16 16:39:06 omglolbbq has joined
2564 2010-12-16 16:39:29 <ArtForz> virtexes are completely useless for hash/$
2565 2010-12-16 16:40:18 <ArtForz> the only FPGAs remotely close to having a decent initial cost vs. hashrate are spartan6s
2566 2010-12-16 16:40:28 <Tester> it seems to me that the hash computation is over-shadowed by the changing situation (state) being hashed - new transactions as an example
2567 2010-12-16 16:40:37 <ArtForz> not really
2568 2010-12-16 16:40:45 <ArtForz> we add transactions once a minute
2569 2010-12-16 16:40:59 <ArtForz> and all the miner needs is the 80-byte block header
2570 2010-12-16 16:41:23 <Tester> so a tiny Miner server could be a separate distro
2571 2010-12-16 16:41:35 <ArtForz> = minimal bandwidth, minimal memory for the miner needed
2572 2010-12-16 16:41:36 <Tester> and only produce success
2573 2010-12-16 16:41:42 <Bitcoinz> ;;bc,calc 1300000
2574 2010-12-16 16:41:42 <ArtForz> yep
2575 2010-12-16 16:41:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 11 hours, 14 minutes, and 38 seconds
2576 2010-12-16 16:41:45 <omglolbbq> Can anyone tell me how to actualy connect the DiabloMiner to miner.bitcoin.cz?
2577 2010-12-16 16:42:05 <Tester> That would be a really good thing to distro for Linux
2578 2010-12-16 16:42:13 <Tester> Tiny Miner
2579 2010-12-16 16:42:52 <Tester> needs target as input and current block and that tree thing ?
2580 2010-12-16 16:43:38 <ArtForz> miner only needs block header
2581 2010-12-16 16:43:48 <ArtForz> block header contains target and hash of tx tree
2582 2010-12-16 16:43:51 <Tester> so Tiny Miner code would be tiny ?
2583 2010-12-16 16:43:55 <ArtForz> yep
2584 2010-12-16 16:43:59 <Tester> a module ?
2585 2010-12-16 16:44:10 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2586 2010-12-16 16:44:14 <Tester> wow - modular - what a concept
2587 2010-12-16 16:44:28 <ArtForz> my GPU miner is 500 lines of C
2588 2010-12-16 16:44:39 <Tester> open source ?
2589 2010-12-16 16:44:49 <ArtForz> nope
2590 2010-12-16 16:45:02 <Tester> so we rewrite that
2591 2010-12-16 16:45:08 <Tester> oh welll
2592 2010-12-16 16:45:16 <ArtForz> m0s miner is python, and like 300 lines
2593 2010-12-16 16:45:21 <ArtForz> and diablos is java
2594 2010-12-16 16:45:28 <Tester> slow as
2595 2010-12-16 16:45:36 <ArtForz> doesnt matter
2596 2010-12-16 16:45:40 <ArtForz> GPu does the heavy lifitng
2597 2010-12-16 16:45:47 <Tester> ah interesting
2598 2010-12-16 16:45:58 RazielZ has joined
2599 2010-12-16 16:46:09 omglolbbq is now known as KwukDuck
2600 2010-12-16 16:46:09 <Tester> so what to do what to do
2601 2010-12-16 16:46:30 <Tester> C++ is a non-starter
2602 2010-12-16 16:47:25 <KwukDuck> ArtForz, you know how to connect diablominer to the miner.bitcoin.cz pool?
2603 2010-12-16 16:48:08 <Tester> another approach is to look at the big picture and eventual evolution of miners as a separate group
2604 2010-12-16 16:48:56 <Tester> versus the mainstream users who want to play with existing coins
2605 2010-12-16 16:49:09 <genjix> ArtForz: how much btc have you made in total from mining out of curiousity? :)
2606 2010-12-16 16:49:11 <Tester> adding transactions etc
2607 2010-12-16 16:49:48 <ArtForz> 238250
2608 2010-12-16 16:50:10 <genjix> ****!
2609 2010-12-16 16:50:24 <Bitcoinz> ***! :P
2610 2010-12-16 16:50:35 <KwukDuck> ***********!##@!
2611 2010-12-16 16:50:51 <Tester> so actually there is a economic barrier to entry not to have a distro that works smoothly
2612 2010-12-16 16:51:13 <genjix> = $60k
2613 2010-12-16 16:51:22 <xelister> KwukDuck: just use angle miner, its like diablo but better :P
2614 2010-12-16 16:51:25 <Tester> sort of like the Gold Rush - miners did not want people climbing into their mines
2615 2010-12-16 16:51:26 <xelister> KwukDuck: what gpu u have
2616 2010-12-16 16:51:41 <KwukDuck> hd4850
2617 2010-12-16 16:51:43 <Bitcoinz> 40000 â¬
2618 2010-12-16 16:52:15 <KwukDuck> xelister im just wondering how to connect it , i can look for other miners later :)
2619 2010-12-16 16:52:32 <Bitcoinz> i'd like to know that too
2620 2010-12-16 16:52:55 <albatross_> so, if artforz only got 250K bitcoin, where the hell is the other 4.5 MILLION?
2621 2010-12-16 16:53:02 <Bitcoinz> xelister, where can i download angelminer?
2622 2010-12-16 16:53:11 <Bitcoinz> angleminer*
2623 2010-12-16 16:53:22 <ArtForz> satoshi probably has well over 2M
2624 2010-12-16 16:53:43 <EvanR-work> sounds like a pretty uncertain market ;)
2625 2010-12-16 16:53:48 <ArtForz> check out how long the network was doing single-digit Mhash
2626 2010-12-16 16:54:13 <albatross_> true...those were the days i guess :)
2627 2010-12-16 16:54:16 <xelister> Bitcoinz: question is more of "when" then "where". Soon :)
2628 2010-12-16 16:54:35 <EvanR-work> its a time travelling miner
2629 2010-12-16 16:54:43 <Tester> any opinions on what happens with the lost coins way down the road ?
2630 2010-12-16 16:54:44 <xelister> yeah satoshi will be so so rich if market grows
2631 2010-12-16 16:55:04 <kiba> Tester: they are lock away forever until you generate the right key
2632 2010-12-16 16:55:06 <kiba> which will be never
2633 2010-12-16 16:55:12 <EvanR-work> no opinions involved, they are lost
2634 2010-12-16 16:55:12 <albatross_> why never?
2635 2010-12-16 16:55:26 <Bitcoinz> :)
2636 2010-12-16 16:55:37 <kiba> the probablity is extremely low as to be effectively forever
2637 2010-12-16 16:55:52 <EvanR-work> in the computer world we live next to a very deep ocean
2638 2010-12-16 16:56:02 <EvanR-work> if you throw your money in there, youll 'never' get it back ;)
2639 2010-12-16 16:56:06 <Tester> wondering if some key escrow added soon could allow a third party to find them
2640 2010-12-16 16:56:35 <kiba> like when you die, you can give the key to your grandchildren?
2641 2010-12-16 16:57:10 <Tester> more like when a single person dies with no family the state takes their land
2642 2010-12-16 16:57:25 <EvanR-work> the state can still take their computer lol
2643 2010-12-16 16:57:30 <Tester> the land does not disappear
2644 2010-12-16 16:58:05 azetab has joined
2645 2010-12-16 16:58:12 <Bitcoinz> but the can sell it;)
2646 2010-12-16 16:58:14 azetab has quit (Changing host)
2647 2010-12-16 16:58:14 azetab has joined
2648 2010-12-16 16:58:14 azetab has quit (Changing host)
2649 2010-12-16 16:58:14 azetab has joined
2650 2010-12-16 16:58:21 <Tester> the state sells it
2651 2010-12-16 16:58:35 <Bitcoinz> that's what i said ;)
2652 2010-12-16 16:59:22 <Tester> so with an escrow of keys one could petition the third party to unlock those coins
2653 2010-12-16 16:59:31 <[Noodles]> Tester: how could you tell, if coins are actually lost, or just sitting on a thumbdrive hiding in a vault waiting for 2050?
2654 2010-12-16 16:59:48 <[Noodles]> you can't
2655 2010-12-16 17:00:00 <[Noodles]> so there's no way to reclaim lost coins
2656 2010-12-16 17:00:01 <Tester> good point
2657 2010-12-16 17:00:15 <[Noodles]> you wont even know, how many are lost
2658 2010-12-16 17:00:36 <Tester> the coins are not really on that thumb drive
2659 2010-12-16 17:00:46 <[Noodles]> no, but the keys are
2660 2010-12-16 17:00:51 <Tester> the block chain is the golden thing
2661 2010-12-16 17:01:13 <Tester> he who can tap the block chain owns the coins
2662 2010-12-16 17:01:18 <kiba> the blockchain is like a big super vault
2663 2010-12-16 17:01:24 <kiba> which in turn
2664 2010-12-16 17:01:36 <kiba> contains an absurdly large number of vault
2665 2010-12-16 17:01:38 <kiba> s
2666 2010-12-16 17:01:47 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2667 2010-12-16 17:01:50 <[Noodles]> so, no coins are ever lost, they are still there
2668 2010-12-16 17:01:51 <EvanR-work> an nice analogies
2669 2010-12-16 17:01:51 <kiba> most of them empty
2670 2010-12-16 17:02:05 <[Noodles]> it's just that noone knows who owns them
2671 2010-12-16 17:02:20 <Tester> the coins are sitting in a dataflow or coinflow chained thru blocks
2672 2010-12-16 17:02:22 <EvanR-work> when no one knows the combination, its like throwing the coins in the quasi infinite ocean
2673 2010-12-16 17:03:13 RG has quit (xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2674 2010-12-16 17:03:16 <Tester> and finding the key at random to get the coins unstuck is nearly impossible and not worth the effort
2675 2010-12-16 17:03:20 <albatross_> what would be the process of brute forcing a key? does it simply require processing or would one have to submit transactions to test each key? i think it's the former, no?
2676 2010-12-16 17:03:39 RichardG has joined
2677 2010-12-16 17:03:42 <[Noodles]> Tester: if that would be possible, it would aslo be possible to get YOUR coins
2678 2010-12-16 17:03:47 <ArtForz> sigs are ECDSA256, good luck
2679 2010-12-16 17:04:28 <Tester> yes not worth the effort - similar to losing a penny in the car seat
2680 2010-12-16 17:04:31 <MT`AwAy> albatross_: it "simply" requires processing
2681 2010-12-16 17:04:46 <MT`AwAy> (simply being not so simple)
2682 2010-12-16 17:04:48 <ArtForz> yes, only about 2**128 tries
2683 2010-12-16 17:05:11 <MT`AwAy> only?
2684 2010-12-16 17:05:17 <ArtForz> yup
2685 2010-12-16 17:05:22 <Tester> yes a lot of work for a few coins
2686 2010-12-16 17:05:43 <Tester> now if it was a billion tons of gold
2687 2010-12-16 17:05:54 <ArtForz> probably still not worth it
2688 2010-12-16 17:06:06 <ebel> ArtForz: wow you have a lot of coins...
2689 2010-12-16 17:06:07 <MT`AwAy> Tester: if you spot an address with 10 million btc on it, 10 years from now
2690 2010-12-16 17:06:17 <gavinandresen> ... by the time you brute-force the key the coins might be spent....
2691 2010-12-16 17:06:30 <Diablo-D3> [12:04:37] <MT`AwAy> Tester: if you spot an address with 10 million btc on it, 10 years from now
2692 2010-12-16 17:06:36 <ArtForz> or the sun might've burned out
2693 2010-12-16 17:06:39 <Diablo-D3> I will spend every dime of Art's money to brute force it
2694 2010-12-16 17:06:44 RG has joined
2695 2010-12-16 17:06:51 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|!pool
2696 2010-12-16 17:06:52 <RichardG> Could not obtain pooled miner status - log empty? Last log line: Attempting to connect to 173.255.205.10:8335
2697 2010-12-16 17:07:19 <Tester> and one move of those thought-to-be-stuck coins makes one restart
2698 2010-12-16 17:07:49 <ArtForz> at 1 quadrillion keys/sec... about 11 quadrillion years
2699 2010-12-16 17:07:56 <albatross_> if my calculations are right, it would take 110104929293938920295 years to break one key using the entire processing power of the bitcoin network
2700 2010-12-16 17:08:01 <gavinandresen> 11 is my favorite number!
2701 2010-12-16 17:08:29 <Tester> there are 10 kinds of people those who understand binary and those that do not
2702 2010-12-16 17:08:37 <gavinandresen> Yeah, so the coins will probably be spent in 11 quadrillion years.
2703 2010-12-16 17:08:51 <Diablo-D3> albatross_: yeah, but next year I'll be able to buy a quantum computer that fits in my pocket
2704 2010-12-16 17:08:57 <Tester> and they are not spent just moved
2705 2010-12-16 17:09:07 <ArtForz> there are 10 kinds of people, those that write their base in base N
2706 2010-12-16 17:09:08 asdf30 has joined
2707 2010-12-16 17:09:12 <TD> gavinandresen: did you ever figure out a spec for wrapping payment info into documents with MIME types?
2708 2010-12-16 17:09:28 <albatross_> diablo-d3: i don't even need that. i'm just lucky, the 5th or 6th try is all i need
2709 2010-12-16 17:10:50 <gavinandresen> TD: spec is easy... I'm just not sure it is the right way to go. I think there are lots of problems with 'ordinary users' running bitcoin on their computers.
2710 2010-12-16 17:11:15 <gavinandresen> ...starting with they're unlikely to keep their wallets safe from trojans/keyloggers/etc
2711 2010-12-16 17:11:45 <ArtForz> thats called the stupid tax
2712 2010-12-16 17:11:46 <TD> yes. there was a discussion of this in this channel yesterday
2713 2010-12-16 17:11:56 <TD> i was talking to one of the credit card anti-fraud guys at work. he identified that as a key issue.
2714 2010-12-16 17:12:02 <TD> i was thinking of playing with an android app for this over christmas
2715 2010-12-16 17:12:04 <Tester> keep in mind that some of those 'ordinary users' are deep into other P2P systems that have their own legacy
2716 2010-12-16 17:12:07 <albatross_> gavinandresen: just try explaining to your wife/gf/father/grandfather/etc. how to buy something with a bitcoin...it's impossible right now
2717 2010-12-16 17:12:13 <TD> looking at whether it's possible/easy to split holding the wallet from taking part in a node
2718 2010-12-16 17:12:17 * TD needs to study the protocol more closely
2719 2010-12-16 17:12:52 <TD> it probably relies on the lightweight client work satoshi keeps talking about
2720 2010-12-16 17:13:10 <Tester> that is another approach - the Protocol - document it and that may cause modular development
2721 2010-12-16 17:14:03 <Tester> a Miner Node for Linux hardcore users seems like a good starting point
2722 2010-12-16 17:14:20 <TD> that said, a file format for describing proposed transactions would still be useful, even if wallets were moved off PCs and onto more secure devices
2723 2010-12-16 17:14:32 <TD> you don't want to type bitcoin addresses onto a phone keyboard ....
2724 2010-12-16 17:14:34 <Tester> sounds like people have already done that in 500 lines of code - straight C
2725 2010-12-16 17:15:03 <Diablo-D3> done what?
2726 2010-12-16 17:15:12 <Tester> Tiny Miner
2727 2010-12-16 17:15:20 <Diablo-D3> so, like mine?
2728 2010-12-16 17:15:27 <Diablo-D3> mines pretty tiny
2729 2010-12-16 17:15:29 <Tester> dunno
2730 2010-12-16 17:15:29 <albatross_> lol...he said tiny
2731 2010-12-16 17:15:32 <ArtForz> we already hve everything in place for splitting miner from main code
2732 2010-12-16 17:15:59 <ArtForz> lugging a JVM around != tiny ;)
2733 2010-12-16 17:16:08 <gavinandresen> TD: RPC commands for submitting signed transactions to a bitcoin node for submission, and for monitoring a list of bitcoin addresses, would be nifty and would enable all sorts of cool apps......
2734 2010-12-16 17:16:17 <Tester> will likely write Tiny Miner - straight C for WRT54GL MIPS
2735 2010-12-16 17:16:34 <ArtForz> gavin: yup, great idea
2736 2010-12-16 17:16:48 <ArtForz> should allow *really* lightweight clients
2737 2010-12-16 17:17:00 <TD> for monitoring transactions, i think it'd be easier to not have that part of the main bitcoin protocol
2738 2010-12-16 17:17:10 <ArtForz> pretty much splitting bitcoin into network node, miner and wallet
2739 2010-12-16 17:17:17 <gavinandresen> What do you mean by "main bitcoin protocol" ?
2740 2010-12-16 17:17:43 <Tester> Tniy Miner protocol could be via files
2741 2010-12-16 17:17:47 <Tester> Tiny
2742 2010-12-16 17:17:51 <TD> well, there are a variety of different ways you might want to receive notification of the state of a transaction. eg, via android or iphone push notifications .... or maybe jabber, or email, etc.
2743 2010-12-16 17:18:06 <TD> rather than hold a pending connection to an actual bitcoin node open
2744 2010-12-16 17:18:31 <gavinandresen> TD: I'd implement HTTP JSON-RPC callbacks.
2745 2010-12-16 17:18:33 <TD> if the "please notify me when X does Y" part is separated out, people can just come up with ad-hoc notification request protocols that suits whatever device or platform they are using
2746 2010-12-16 17:18:57 <gavinandresen> TD: ... you could then write gateways that took those notifications and forwarded however....
2747 2010-12-16 17:19:10 <Tester> the Tiny Miner would just be a box that is trying to hit the target
2748 2010-12-16 17:19:18 <TD> yeah, ok. that makes sense.
2749 2010-12-16 17:19:37 <TD> users would talk to the gateways. gateways talk to the official node client
2750 2010-12-16 17:19:49 <nanotube> Tester: jgarzik has a pure-c implementation of a bitcoin miner sitting somewhere.
2751 2010-12-16 17:20:04 <TD> which would probably be on the same machine
2752 2010-12-16 17:20:14 <Tester> great to have links to existing code saves time
2753 2010-12-16 17:20:48 <Tester> in theory Tiny Miner could also be a Linux Driver that is loaded
2754 2010-12-16 17:21:27 <nanotube> Tester: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.0
2755 2010-12-16 17:22:06 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: you've got python code that can sit on the bitcoin network and just connect, relay transactions, etc, yes?
2756 2010-12-16 17:22:19 <TD> i might take a crack at that this christmas vacation :)
2757 2010-12-16 17:23:02 <gavinandresen> (or am I misremembering and it is theymos or somebody who was working on that....)
2758 2010-12-16 17:23:29 <TD> you are thinking of running a relay node on appengine ?
2759 2010-12-16 17:23:32 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2760 2010-12-16 17:23:44 <ArtForz> yes
2761 2010-12-16 17:24:26 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: ... so you should teach it to take a signed transaction and send it to the network. And HTTP POST when transactions to addresses that are registered with it happen....
2762 2010-12-16 17:24:32 <Tester> Some miners seem to like to know about esoteric hardware so a Driver approach would hide those details
2763 2010-12-16 17:24:53 <TD> why not make this a feature of the official client ?
2764 2010-12-16 17:24:57 <gavinandresen> ... and then write a little more python code that maintains a wallet and knows how to do the crypto stuff.....
2765 2010-12-16 17:25:15 <cosurgi> look! bitcoin is back on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
2766 2010-12-16 17:28:55 <gavinandresen> TD: I think it will eventually be a feature of the official client. But a proof-of-concept in python would be quicker to do.
2767 2010-12-16 17:29:47 <gavinandresen> Next on my TODO for bitcoin is getting a version of 'monitor*' that Satoshi will approve of...
2768 2010-12-16 17:29:59 <TD> what do the monitor calls do?
2769 2010-12-16 17:29:59 <Tester> Looks like people are getting things split out http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2207.0
2770 2010-12-16 17:30:48 <TD> btw, does satoshi ever state what he is working on? or is it just a surprise when the next release comes out
2771 2010-12-16 17:31:02 <gavinandresen> TD: monitorblock POSTS to a URL when blocks are added to the chain. monitoraddress POSTS when transactions come in to an address....
2772 2010-12-16 17:31:13 <RichardG> nanotube: sent you a cent thanking you for allowing the remote miner bot
2773 2010-12-16 17:32:11 <Tester> That last link was refers to Launchpad and has a PPA
2774 2010-12-16 17:32:35 bitanarchy has joined
2775 2010-12-16 17:33:33 <Tester> PPAs allow one to update the package and have it updated to the network - no muss no fuss
2776 2010-12-16 17:33:51 <gavinandresen> Tester: see? there ya go. Go for it, jump in and help....
2777 2010-12-16 17:34:01 <nanotube> RichardG: i have nothing to do with 'allowing' things. :P but... thanks. :)
2778 2010-12-16 17:34:12 <nanotube> ;;bc,blocks
2779 2010-12-16 17:34:12 <gribble> 97903
2780 2010-12-16 17:34:13 <bitanarchy> The ECB is going to buy up 5 billion euros of government securities. Are they going to print that, or will this money be loaned to them by the individual central banks?
2781 2010-12-16 17:34:27 <Tester> Jump in - but also have to be careful with a massive amount of code that exists
2782 2010-12-16 17:34:55 <Tester> have to use Kerberos clients
2783 2010-12-16 17:35:08 <albatross_> bitanarchy: 5 billion? they scrape from the stuff between the seats in the car
2784 2010-12-16 17:35:18 <Tester> and a 3D Video Game network
2785 2010-12-16 17:35:35 <Tester> so yes Jump in
2786 2010-12-16 17:36:12 <bitanarchy> albatros_: well it is nothing compared to what the trillions of the FED, but the ECB already did about 70 billion earlier...
2787 2010-12-16 17:36:34 <Tester> like jumping into a LAN Party with 10,000 users and saying "Hey everyone there are coins all over the ground"
2788 2010-12-16 17:37:26 <Tester> and 10,000 people (avatars) start picking them up and putting them in wallets that magically appear
2789 2010-12-16 17:38:47 <nanotube> gavinandresen: any thoughts on updating the seednode list to include just the working nodes plus the fallback nodes on the wiki?
2790 2010-12-16 17:39:09 <gavinandresen> nanotube: Good Idea.
2791 2010-12-16 17:39:27 maximi89-away has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2792 2010-12-16 17:39:41 <gavinandresen> nanotube: create a little patch and I bet Satoshi will include it in the next release.
2793 2010-12-16 17:39:57 <Tester> has to have seednodes come via our Kerberos auth system
2794 2010-12-16 17:40:20 <Tester> IRC cant be used for that
2795 2010-12-16 17:40:23 maximi89 has joined
2796 2010-12-16 17:40:39 <Tester> so more code cruft can be taken out
2797 2010-12-16 17:40:52 <nanotube> gavinandresen: mmm... now to see where the seednodes are stored. heh.
2798 2010-12-16 17:41:40 <Tester> for existing P2P networks they know where their special nodes are
2799 2010-12-16 17:41:51 <genjix> hey all! Our bitcoin project has been generating TONS of interest in non-bitcoin related forums ( http://bit.ly/esg75R http://bit.ly/fICY05 )... Tonight at 2200 GMT we are holding a public meeting/Q&A session and most likely there will be a lot of people asking questions about Bitcoin. It'd be nice to have some of you guys around on our chan #pokerface for the meeting to help answer Bitcoin-related questions that we might not be able to.
2800 2010-12-16 17:42:08 <genjix> whew that was long
2801 2010-12-16 17:42:21 <nanotube> long, but fit inside the irc msg size limit just fine! :)
2802 2010-12-16 17:43:00 <Tester> as the holidays approach more marketing (packaging) of bitcoin will likely emerge
2803 2010-12-16 17:43:19 <Tester> joe beercan will become a miner with FREE hard-hat
2804 2010-12-16 17:44:21 <Tester> joe beercan just wants the chicks and lots of coins
2805 2010-12-16 17:46:45 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2806 2010-12-16 17:51:46 <midnightmagic> AWSOME!
2807 2010-12-16 17:51:50 <midnightmagic> err.. AWSOME!
2808 2010-12-16 17:51:54 <midnightmagic> awEsome!
2809 2010-12-16 17:52:03 <genjix> third times lucky
2810 2010-12-16 17:52:27 <Tester> maybe trying to guess one of the stuck coin keys ?
2811 2010-12-16 17:53:41 <Tester> May be able to escrow keys here http://www.geocaching.com/
2812 2010-12-16 17:53:43 <midnightmagic> haha, no I'm talking about the carbon dioxide emission rights thing..
2813 2010-12-16 17:53:55 <midnightmagic> what a great idea!
2814 2010-12-16 17:54:04 darrob has joined
2815 2010-12-16 17:55:19 <Tester> Also a key can be stored with a comment via http://www.wheresgeorge.com/
2816 2010-12-16 17:58:39 <kiba> hmm
2817 2010-12-16 17:59:06 <kiba> that acrylicist think the bitcoin network can be secure without spinning hashes
2818 2010-12-16 17:59:35 <Tester> That way a dollar becomes a physical wallet and you can send the coins to people who discover them
2819 2010-12-16 17:59:58 <kiba> Can't the BitCoin network be "secured" without spinning a hash 24/7/365?
2820 2010-12-16 18:00:09 <kiba> anybody up for a debunking?
2821 2010-12-16 18:00:16 <MT`AwAy> kiba: maybe once we don't need to introduce new bitcoins
2822 2010-12-16 18:00:21 <ArtForz> RTFP
2823 2010-12-16 18:00:31 <Tester> in 2040 ?
2824 2010-12-16 18:00:32 <MT`AwAy> (but even then we'd need major changes to the way things work)
2825 2010-12-16 18:00:42 <kiba> MT`AwAy: we still need someone to verify the transaction right?
2826 2010-12-16 18:00:58 <kiba> and an incentive to process blocks, right?
2827 2010-12-16 18:01:02 <ArtForz> how else would you build a distributed timestamping system?
2828 2010-12-16 18:01:13 <kiba> so
2829 2010-12-16 18:01:21 <kiba> it is neccesary to timestamp, right?
2830 2010-12-16 18:01:29 <Diablo-D3> kiba: erm, how else do you produce the work for the proof of work?
2831 2010-12-16 18:01:41 <Diablo-D3> soending inordinate amounts of cpu time is how you keep it secure
2832 2010-12-16 18:01:46 <ArtForz> well, without some way of determeining who's "first", how doy u wanna reach consesus what tx is real and what is doublespend?
2833 2010-12-16 18:01:59 <kiba> Diablo-D3: that's a good reply
2834 2010-12-16 18:02:14 <Diablo-D3> er, spending
2835 2010-12-16 18:02:20 <Diablo-D3> lets pretend I can type
2836 2010-12-16 18:02:48 <Tester> security via obscurity and widespread distribution
2837 2010-12-16 18:02:57 <ArtForz> can't use IPs for voting, too easy to get a lot of those
2838 2010-12-16 18:02:59 <kiba> well,, that acrylicist guy sucks for his poor economic thinking
2839 2010-12-16 18:03:44 <kiba> typical for someone who think "DEFLATION SPIRAL! OMG"
2840 2010-12-16 18:03:48 <ArtForz> thats why we effectively use CPU time as votes on what "network consensus of trasnaction history" is
2841 2010-12-16 18:03:59 <Tester> the Proof-of-Work is a throttle and the blocks alone have value without the coins
2842 2010-12-16 18:04:24 <ArtForz> yep, even without coins a distributed timestamping system would be useful
2843 2010-12-16 18:04:53 <Tester> yes and widespread dependence on it can be a big risk but the gain is worth it
2844 2010-12-16 18:06:05 <ArtForz> the real cool part is the idea of using it to create a currency on top and using that same currency to reward "timekeepers"
2845 2010-12-16 18:06:18 <Tester> an old old kids book Snow Treasure is interesting also - gold was moved bit by bit in tiny amounts
2846 2010-12-16 18:11:25 <kiba> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
2847 2010-12-16 18:11:28 <kiba> bitcoin documentation wiki!
2848 2010-12-16 18:11:51 <MT`AwAy> (a less formal, more community-oriented wiki)
2849 2010-12-16 18:11:55 MT`AwAy has quit (Changing host)
2850 2010-12-16 18:11:55 MT`AwAy has joined
2851 2010-12-16 18:12:07 <Tester> "less forma" :-)
2852 2010-12-16 18:12:19 <Tester> "less formal" even
2853 2010-12-16 18:12:25 <MT`AwAy> wtf
2854 2010-12-16 18:12:41 <MT`AwAy> why is BCBot noticing me suddently?
2855 2010-12-16 18:17:27 asdf30 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2856 2010-12-16 18:19:13 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: you quit and rejoined (got your cloak i see) that's why
2857 2010-12-16 18:19:21 <Tester> As bitcoin goes viral it will be interesting to watch
2858 2010-12-16 18:19:29 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: oh, it made me quit/rejoin, didn't expect that
2859 2010-12-16 18:20:12 <MT`AwAy> and yeah I got my cloak after almost 5 years on freenode (will be 5 years on jan 6th)
2860 2010-12-16 18:20:33 <nanotube> heh well er... congrats. :)
2861 2010-12-16 18:21:12 ebel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2862 2010-12-16 18:21:29 <MT`AwAy> :D
2863 2010-12-16 18:21:44 <MT`AwAy> all because bitcoin-otc said I should have one
2864 2010-12-16 18:21:49 <nanotube> hehe
2865 2010-12-16 18:22:10 altamic has joined
2866 2010-12-16 18:24:55 Tester has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2867 2010-12-16 18:28:37 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2868 2010-12-16 18:32:13 altamic has joined
2869 2010-12-16 18:38:37 bitanarchy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2870 2010-12-16 18:41:11 Grantt has joined
2871 2010-12-16 18:41:45 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
2872 2010-12-16 18:41:48 Grantt is now known as Granttt
2873 2010-12-16 18:41:51 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
2874 2010-12-16 18:41:51 Granttt has joined
2875 2010-12-16 18:42:52 Pogo has joined
2876 2010-12-16 18:43:26 <Pogo> Hello everybody!
2877 2010-12-16 18:44:18 <[Noodles]> Greetings
2878 2010-12-16 18:45:28 <Pogo> There is something i don't understand about bitcoin...
2879 2010-12-16 18:46:06 <Pogo> Ti generate coins, Bitcoin uses the processor resources.
2880 2010-12-16 18:46:14 <Pogo> Ti => To
2881 2010-12-16 18:46:29 <[Noodles]> kindof
2882 2010-12-16 18:46:33 <Pogo> But what about is it working?
2883 2010-12-16 18:46:53 <[Noodles]> it's drawing lottery tickets
2884 2010-12-16 18:47:27 <Pogo> It's not a joke?
2885 2010-12-16 18:47:52 <Pogo> Bitcoin asks for coins and the winner gets one?
2886 2010-12-16 18:48:27 <[Noodles]> that's what it's like, it's hashing some blockdata and transactions, if a hash hits the target, you won and got yourself some coins
2887 2010-12-16 18:48:35 <ArtForz> yup, at current difficulty about 1 in 52621939310592 is a winner
2888 2010-12-16 18:49:41 alystair has joined
2889 2010-12-16 18:49:51 * [Noodles] ordered a new card today ^.^
2890 2010-12-16 18:51:26 * ArtForz ordered a XC6SLX45 today
2891 2010-12-16 18:51:49 <[Noodles]> whatever that is, i guess it's fast
2892 2010-12-16 18:51:57 <ArtForz> spartan6 FPGA
2893 2010-12-16 18:52:59 <ArtForz> not exactly fast
2894 2010-12-16 18:53:12 <ArtForz> should be bale to get about 25-30Mh/s
2895 2010-12-16 18:53:36 <[Noodles]> per watt? ^.^
2896 2010-12-16 18:53:43 <ArtForz> no, per chip
2897 2010-12-16 18:53:49 Grantt has joined
2898 2010-12-16 18:53:49 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
2899 2010-12-16 18:53:51 Grantt is now known as Granttt
2900 2010-12-16 18:53:53 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
2901 2010-12-16 18:53:53 Granttt has joined
2902 2010-12-16 18:54:26 <ArtForz> one chip is ~$50, so Mh/$ sucks
2903 2010-12-16 18:54:47 <kiba> bencoder: yo there?
2904 2010-12-16 18:54:48 <ArtForz> but it should get > 5Mh/W
2905 2010-12-16 18:55:08 <[Noodles]> sounds pretty good
2906 2010-12-16 18:56:11 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2907 2010-12-16 18:57:42 <[Noodles]> well, i 'only' ordered a 5970, cuz i realized that generated coins so far already payed for it (+lots of kW/h to use it) anyway, so it's more like a free card, if it gets unprofitable in a month or a few, i'll just shut it off and still got profits left
2908 2010-12-16 19:05:20 TD is now known as TD[away]
2909 2010-12-16 19:06:25 jchysk has left ()
2910 2010-12-16 19:10:41 <cosurgi> ;bc,calc 213553
2911 2010-12-16 19:10:44 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 213553
2912 2010-12-16 19:10:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 213553 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 days, 20 hours, 26 minutes, and 52 seconds
2913 2010-12-16 19:11:22 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 2213553
2914 2010-12-16 19:11:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2213553 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 6 hours, 36 minutes, and 12 seconds
2915 2010-12-16 19:12:00 <cosurgi> ArtForz: have you seen wikipedia page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin - it's there! :)
2916 2010-12-16 19:12:12 <genjix> MT`AwAy: i need a login
2917 2010-12-16 19:12:23 <MT`AwAy> genjix: where ?
2918 2010-12-16 19:12:32 <genjix> bitcoin.it
2919 2010-12-16 19:12:37 <T_X> the bitcoin-pool-miner, are people only receiving bitcoins when they are connected while a block got generated?
2920 2010-12-16 19:12:56 <MT`AwAy> genjix: you can register
2921 2010-12-16 19:13:10 <genjix> no, i only have log in
2922 2010-12-16 19:13:17 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 17341
2923 2010-12-16 19:13:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 17341 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 5 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 55 minutes, and 47 seconds
2924 2010-12-16 19:14:54 <MT`AwAy> genjix: let me check
2925 2010-12-16 19:14:59 <genjix> kk
2926 2010-12-16 19:15:31 * MT`AwAy just created page https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
2927 2010-12-16 19:16:03 <MT`AwAy> here genjix fixed
2928 2010-12-16 19:16:06 <MT`AwAy> you can register now
2929 2010-12-16 19:16:09 <genjix> ok
2930 2010-12-16 19:16:11 <genjix> thanks
2931 2010-12-16 19:16:20 <MT`AwAy> was a bit too restrictive when I limited right of anonymous users :D
2932 2010-12-16 19:18:41 <genjix> ok time to destroy this page >:)
2933 2010-12-16 19:18:58 <MT`AwAy> XD
2934 2010-12-16 19:19:45 <MT`AwAy> genjix: remember that stuff you submit in there will be licensed under wtfpl
2935 2010-12-16 19:20:04 <genjix> i dont care about licensesfor my work
2936 2010-12-16 19:21:59 <MT`AwAy> :p
2937 2010-12-16 19:24:23 <MT`AwAy> oh btw genjix you'll be able to write about your gambling stuff if you want to in the wiki (on its own page), it's not a problem here (user generated content => not my fault :p )
2938 2010-12-16 19:25:48 * kiba is becoming bitcoin rich :D
2939 2010-12-16 19:26:13 <genjix> that wikipedia editor who deleted the bitcoin article is really getting on my nerves
2940 2010-12-16 19:26:58 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin#External_links
2941 2010-12-16 19:27:08 <genjix> he keeps deleting the external links calling them 'spam'
2942 2010-12-16 19:27:13 daveandr has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2943 2010-12-16 19:27:18 <genjix> wtf drugs he is on?
2944 2010-12-16 19:27:28 Techno_ has joined
2945 2010-12-16 19:27:39 <MT`AwAy> genjix: which external links?
2946 2010-12-16 19:27:45 Pogo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2947 2010-12-16 19:27:53 <genjix> all of them except the first.
2948 2010-12-16 19:28:01 Techno_ has quit (Client Quit)
2949 2010-12-16 19:28:05 <MT`AwAy> for bitcoin forum he's probably right
2950 2010-12-16 19:28:13 <MT`AwAy> same for the chat room
2951 2010-12-16 19:28:23 <MT`AwAy> sourceforge is discutable
2952 2010-12-16 19:28:29 <MT`AwAy> and I don't know what LWN is so I can't say
2953 2010-12-16 19:28:35 <genjix> look at other projects and it's the same.
2954 2010-12-16 19:28:52 <MT`AwAy> genjix: give it time
2955 2010-12-16 19:29:00 <genjix> irc is not spam, its the best place to ask stuff
2956 2010-12-16 19:29:02 <kiba> I don't understand why he have such a big interest in the bitcoin article
2957 2010-12-16 19:29:08 <MT`AwAy> fighting wikipedia editors hurt their ego and make them have dispropotionate answers
2958 2010-12-16 19:29:29 <genjix> he also deleted the graph twice claiming it's unsourced
2959 2010-12-16 19:30:11 <MT`AwAy> graph description is not accurate
2960 2010-12-16 19:30:25 <kiba> really?
2961 2010-12-16 19:30:32 Tester has joined
2962 2010-12-16 19:30:38 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2963 2010-12-16 19:30:43 <MT`AwAy> it should include the fact that this is not a "hopeful projection" but a "mathematical fact"
2964 2010-12-16 19:31:16 <kiba> I doubt that there are a cryptocurrency research journal
2965 2010-12-16 19:31:17 <MT`AwAy> (ie. let people who don't know about bitcoin what this graph means)
2966 2010-12-16 19:31:33 <genjix> Insty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bitcoin#Projected_Total_BTC_Growth_Image can you back yourself up here? im fighting to keep the graph in
2967 2010-12-16 19:31:40 <genjix> its been added and removed 3 times
2968 2010-12-16 19:31:49 nelisky has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2969 2010-12-16 19:32:14 <MT`AwAy> "unsourced" means "no trusted source says the graph is true"
2970 2010-12-16 19:32:37 <MT`AwAy> ie. you could mention the 4 years rule and provide a reference
2971 2010-12-16 19:32:41 <genjix> except LWN does back up the graph
2972 2010-12-16 19:32:53 <genjix> it is there in the text.
2973 2010-12-16 19:33:10 <genjix> you don't ref image captions when they repeat source info
2974 2010-12-16 19:33:15 <Tester> Just start everything with: Ben Franklin said
2975 2010-12-16 19:33:15 <MT`AwAy> I'm not sure LWN qualifies as a trusted source
2976 2010-12-16 19:33:19 <Insty> I made the graph by reading the source code :/
2977 2010-12-16 19:33:45 <Insty> I doubt I'm anyone wikipedia thinks is notable.
2978 2010-12-16 19:33:54 <kiba> @hackerkiba You just need a proof of "limit." But I've already gone over all that before.
2979 2010-12-16 19:33:54 <MT`AwAy> what qualifies as a trusted source would be "This graph was made by Insty based on published bitcoin paper and sourcecode"
2980 2010-12-16 19:34:02 <kiba> what is a proof of limit?
2981 2010-12-16 19:34:07 <Diablo-D3> SURE IS WIKIPEDIA IN HERE
2982 2010-12-16 19:34:12 <Tester> Ben Franklin said bitcoin is a very interesting system
2983 2010-12-16 19:34:16 <genjix> Insty: it's about license... did you grant me permission.
2984 2010-12-16 19:34:22 <Insty> yes.
2985 2010-12-16 19:34:24 <Diablo-D3> Tester: you know, in a way, he did
2986 2010-12-16 19:34:29 <mndrix> ;;bc,calc 7000000
2987 2010-12-16 19:34:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 7000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 hours, 5 minutes, and 17 seconds
2988 2010-12-16 19:34:41 <mndrix> ;;bc,calc 7000
2989 2010-12-16 19:34:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 7000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 12 weeks, 3 days, 0 hours, 10 minutes, and 41 seconds
2990 2010-12-16 19:34:46 <Tester> Abe Lincoln backed up what Ben Franklin said
2991 2010-12-16 19:34:51 <kiba> Diablo-D3: yo, will you explain what acrylicist mean by proof of limit?
2992 2010-12-16 19:34:59 <Diablo-D3> kiba: who?
2993 2010-12-16 19:35:06 <kiba> that guy on twitter
2994 2010-12-16 19:35:12 <MT`AwAy> anyway genjix if a wikipedia guy undo what you did, do not do again, instead you're supposed to whine and cry until someone notices and asks what's wrong :D
2995 2010-12-16 19:35:14 <Diablo-D3> who the fuck cares about what some fag said on twitter
2996 2010-12-16 19:35:36 <kiba> he claims that bitcoin is a waste of electricity and that we should go with "proof of limit"
2997 2010-12-16 19:35:44 <MT`AwAy> btw genjix are you going to edit the page on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page to remove references of Kartludox ?
2998 2010-12-16 19:35:53 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck is "proof of limit"
2999 2010-12-16 19:36:01 <Diablo-D3> sounds like someone fails at common sense
3000 2010-12-16 19:36:02 <genjix> sounds like bullshit to me.
3001 2010-12-16 19:36:02 * kiba stratch his head
3002 2010-12-16 19:36:13 <Tester> it is too late to change the block chain and the basic platform
3003 2010-12-16 19:36:17 <genjix> MT`AwAy: yep hold on. im maing changes
3004 2010-12-16 19:36:27 <MT`AwAy> genjix: ok, I'll wait
3005 2010-12-16 19:36:34 <MT`AwAy> in fact I may just go to sleep, already 4:30 here
3006 2010-12-16 19:36:48 <Insty> "This graph was made based on published bitcoin paper and sourcecode"
3007 2010-12-16 19:37:04 <genjix> MT`AwAy: do you have 4 categories or more i should put in?
3008 2010-12-16 19:37:08 <genjix> I'm thinking:
3009 2010-12-16 19:37:15 <genjix> summary of bitcoin
3010 2010-12-16 19:37:16 <Diablo-D3> kiba: how do you prove there has been no new coins created if you don't track all the names of every coin and who has them?
3011 2010-12-16 19:37:18 <Tester> what is the graph ?
3012 2010-12-16 19:37:19 <Insty> just challenge anyone who disagrees with the graph to make their own.
3013 2010-12-16 19:37:19 <genjix> list of articles
3014 2010-12-16 19:37:26 <MT`AwAy> [04:35:36] <genjix> MT`AwAy: do you have 4 categories or more i should put in? <- soon
3015 2010-12-16 19:37:31 <Insty> it'll end up looking the same.
3016 2010-12-16 19:37:32 <genjix> ...
3017 2010-12-16 19:37:35 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3018 2010-12-16 19:37:35 <MT`AwAy> for now there are 3 categories
3019 2010-12-16 19:37:40 <Tester> that coin growth graph ?
3020 2010-12-16 19:37:45 <MT`AwAy> oh, those categories
3021 2010-12-16 19:37:46 <MT`AwAy> xD
3022 2010-12-16 19:37:48 <kiba> Diablo-D3: I don't know. Ask him.
3023 2010-12-16 19:37:48 <Insty> yes
3024 2010-12-16 19:37:50 <genjix> yep the boxes
3025 2010-12-16 19:37:58 <Diablo-D3> kiba: hes an idiot, and I refuse to use twitter
3026 2010-12-16 19:38:03 <MT`AwAy> genjix: sorry, maybe not the best time to ask me (kind of 4:36am here)
3027 2010-12-16 19:38:04 <Insty> Tester http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
3028 2010-12-16 19:38:06 <genjix> FAQ, summary, articles, we need 1 more
3029 2010-12-16 19:38:07 <genjix> ok
3030 2010-12-16 19:38:33 <kiba> Diablo-D3: he's an idiot in tech and economic I guess
3031 2010-12-16 19:38:48 <Diablo-D3> hes not even a good troll
3032 2010-12-16 19:38:56 <Tester> maybe label the graph "IDEAL Theoretical Expected Growth Over Time"
3033 2010-12-16 19:39:10 nelisky has joined
3034 2010-12-16 19:39:29 <cosurgi> question: what's the header size that get's hashed? If I get it right then nonce are the lowest 32 bits of that header?
3035 2010-12-16 19:39:31 <Insty> it's not really ideal
3036 2010-12-16 19:39:33 <Tester> if people stop mining coins would stop
3037 2010-12-16 19:39:48 <Insty> only if EVERYONE stops mining
3038 2010-12-16 19:39:55 <Insty> then the whole system stops and it doesnt really matter.
3039 2010-12-16 19:39:56 <genjix> MT`AwAy: i cannot upload images
3040 2010-12-16 19:40:02 <genjix> The upload directory (public) is not writable by the webserver.
3041 2010-12-16 19:40:02 <Tester> maybe not ideal but Theoretical ?
3042 2010-12-16 19:40:08 <kiba> does the difficulty adjust on time or on block generation?
3043 2010-12-16 19:40:10 azetab has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3044 2010-12-16 19:40:13 <Insty> certainly theoretical.
3045 2010-12-16 19:40:21 <kiba> like every 2000 blocks or something?
3046 2010-12-16 19:40:24 <MT`AwAy> genjix: oops I changed it, wait a sec
3047 2010-12-16 19:40:32 <Insty> that's the only argument I'd have against my graph is it uses time on the x axis
3048 2010-12-16 19:40:34 <MT`AwAy> genjix: done
3049 2010-12-16 19:40:39 <genjix> k
3050 2010-12-16 19:40:42 <Tester> and people could claim faster target solutions will open the throttle
3051 2010-12-16 19:40:43 <Insty> since the difficulty ajdusts by block number
3052 2010-12-16 19:40:47 <cosurgi> kiba: to speed of block generation. Every two weeks, all clients agree on a new difficulty.
3053 2010-12-16 19:40:58 <Tester> but then the target is made harder
3054 2010-12-16 19:40:59 <kiba> so, it's time
3055 2010-12-16 19:41:01 <Insty> but I was interested in seeing how that corresponded to time.
3056 2010-12-16 19:41:18 Bitcoinz has quit ()
3057 2010-12-16 19:41:18 <Insty> since I know what 2 years is but I have no idea how long 2 million blocks is
3058 2010-12-16 19:41:41 <Tester> it is based on averages
3059 2010-12-16 19:41:48 <kiba> @hackerkiba If in BitCoin you restrict money creation via a "proof of work," in ξ we restrict it by tracking the creation of credit
3060 2010-12-16 19:41:48 <Tester> and luck
3061 2010-12-16 19:41:51 <kiba> that what he said
3062 2010-12-16 19:41:57 <Insty> kiba are you not the real kiba?
3063 2010-12-16 19:42:02 <kiba> I am real!
3064 2010-12-16 19:42:05 TD has joined
3065 2010-12-16 19:42:42 <Insty> I just remember a user called kiba who had been around for a long time here. I thought he knew all this stuff
3066 2010-12-16 19:42:46 <kiba> so his monentary system is based on the creation of credit
3067 2010-12-16 19:42:55 <Tester> by the way since time began the amount of gold mined per year almost equals the world's economic growth
3068 2010-12-16 19:43:03 <kiba> no, I don't. I just hvae a vague understanding of how bitcoin work
3069 2010-12-16 19:43:33 <Diablo-D3> Insty: no, kiba doesnt know this stuff very well
3070 2010-12-16 19:44:01 <Tester> if zillions of miners appear coins will appear faster to a limit
3071 2010-12-16 19:44:15 <Insty> ok, it doesnt really matter :)
3072 2010-12-16 19:44:28 <kiba> I will know how it all work if I ever get around to coding my own client
3073 2010-12-16 19:44:31 <Tester> so that graph could have wavy areas
3074 2010-12-16 19:44:33 darrob has joined
3075 2010-12-16 19:44:37 <kiba> but ya know, I don't know cryptography and a bunch of other stuff
3076 2010-12-16 19:44:44 <kiba> just your regular average joe programmer
3077 2010-12-16 19:44:44 <Diablo-D3> Tester: until the 2016 block is up, then difficulty will shoot straight up
3078 2010-12-16 19:45:09 <Tester> yeah there are some step functions
3079 2010-12-16 19:45:10 <mndrix> how well does http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html correlate with GPU mining ability?
3080 2010-12-16 19:45:11 <kiba> Diablo-D3: I thought difficulty adjustment is based on time, not on blocks?
3081 2010-12-16 19:45:12 <Insty> Tester it's not a graph of actual coins per time,
3082 2010-12-16 19:45:29 <Diablo-D3> kiba: on the rate of production of blocks
3083 2010-12-16 19:45:45 <Diablo-D3> kiba: so if a shitload of new miners show up, difficulty will go up
3084 2010-12-16 19:46:07 <cosurgi> topic is outdated, it says that 0.3.18 is latest.....
3085 2010-12-16 19:46:25 <Tester> Like ZPG zero population growth ? it is a chart of rate
3086 2010-12-16 19:46:26 twobitcoins has joined
3087 2010-12-16 19:46:39 <Tester> it is a derivative
3088 2010-12-16 19:46:41 <MT`AwAy> cosurgi: got too many releases recently :D
3089 2010-12-16 19:46:51 <cosurgi> :)
3090 2010-12-16 19:47:11 <Insty> no it's not a derivative
3091 2010-12-16 19:47:30 <Tester> it shows the rate of production ? mainly trying to show those special years ?
3092 2010-12-16 19:47:36 <Insty> if you change the x axis to blocks
3093 2010-12-16 19:47:46 mtgox has joined
3094 2010-12-16 19:47:46 <Insty> it is accurate.
3095 2010-12-16 19:48:04 <MT`AwAy> genjix: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin:Community_portal <- you can update this page too if you feel like it
3096 2010-12-16 19:48:29 <Insty> the inaccuracy comes due to the non-constant block generation rate.
3097 2010-12-16 19:48:42 <Tester> thus wavy lines
3098 2010-12-16 19:48:49 <Insty> but the self correcting mechanism means it wont be off by very much.
3099 2010-12-16 19:49:12 <Insty> and given the scale of the graph I bet it would not be even noticable
3100 2010-12-16 19:49:15 <Tester> and also lost or stuck coins are not shown
3101 2010-12-16 19:50:02 <Insty> they are not relevant
3102 2010-12-16 19:50:12 <Tester> hopefully a small number
3103 2010-12-16 19:50:32 <Insty> they still exist
3104 2010-12-16 19:50:43 <Insty> the fact that no-one can spend them is irrelevant
3105 2010-12-16 19:50:52 <Tester> true - good point - they exist they are just buried
3106 2010-12-16 19:51:26 <Tester> and maybe the keys are escrowed in a time-capsule
3107 2010-12-16 19:54:20 <Tester> BTW update on Launchpad.net there is bitcoin project and also that spin-off miner the main project has no code yet
3108 2010-12-16 19:54:53 <Tester> that spin-off miner project has pulled out the essential Tiny Miner code but it does not build
3109 2010-12-16 19:55:14 <Tester> gets all wound up in curl and json stuff
3110 2010-12-16 19:55:23 <Tester> too complex
3111 2010-12-16 19:55:38 <kiba> genjix: why do you copied stuff from wikipedia?
3112 2010-12-16 19:55:47 <genjix> why not
3113 2010-12-16 19:56:10 <kiba> copyright laws?
3114 2010-12-16 19:56:55 <kiba> omg, this twittering dude still repreat the deflationary spiral bullshit
3115 2010-12-16 19:57:18 <kiba> s/repreat/repeat
3116 2010-12-16 19:57:37 <Tester> people have many fantasie
3117 2010-12-16 19:57:39 <kiba> WE NEED MOAR time
3118 2010-12-16 19:57:41 <Tester> fantasies
3119 2010-12-16 19:58:06 <kiba> the economists of the world will be left to correct their monentary theory about deflationary spiral
3120 2010-12-16 19:58:12 <Tester> hard for people to get their head around simple things
3121 2010-12-16 19:58:53 <Tester> they really believe it is complex as they have created in their complex models
3122 2010-12-16 19:59:58 <cosurgi> what is the current IP of pooled mining server? 173.255.205.10 or 91.121.29.91 ?
3123 2010-12-16 20:00:16 <Tester> sort of like the new discovery about how water drops divide which can now be seen with new cameras - each drop bounces and half remains
3124 2010-12-16 20:00:35 <kiba> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral
3125 2010-12-16 20:01:02 <Tester> water actually bounces like a ball
3126 2010-12-16 20:01:04 <MT`AwAy> genjix: you didn't tell me you stole the green&blue boxes from wikipedia (wikipedia use CC by-sa)
3127 2010-12-16 20:01:28 <genjix> wtf you can't copyright blue boxes
3128 2010-12-16 20:01:37 <MT`AwAy> :D
3129 2010-12-16 20:01:51 <Tester> someone may patent bouncing water drops
3130 2010-12-16 20:01:53 <MT`AwAy> genjix: then at least use your own color set and cleanup a bit the comments
3131 2010-12-16 20:02:01 * MT`AwAy remembers of a patent on smileys
3132 2010-12-16 20:02:03 <genjix> you can copyright text
3133 2010-12-16 20:02:20 RazielZ has quit ()
3134 2010-12-16 20:02:23 <Tester> now we can see bouncing water so patent it
3135 2010-12-16 20:02:24 <MT`AwAy> genjix: html is code, code can be copyrighted
3136 2010-12-16 20:02:27 <MT`AwAy> :p
3137 2010-12-16 20:02:45 <genjix> <html><p>hello</p></html> <--- see you in court.
3138 2010-12-16 20:02:52 <MT`AwAy> :p
3139 2010-12-16 20:03:02 <genjix> anyway why would wikipedia sue because we stole their blue boxes?
3140 2010-12-16 20:03:02 <MT`AwAy> good luck bringing suit to japan
3141 2010-12-16 20:03:11 <MT`AwAy> genjix: they wouldn't sue over that
3142 2010-12-16 20:03:19 <genjix> a) it's silly b) there's no risk from WP.
3143 2010-12-16 20:03:20 <MT`AwAy> but it'd cause a lot of troll
3144 2010-12-16 20:03:23 <Tester> does water bounce in Japan ?
3145 2010-12-16 20:03:24 <MT`AwAy> at least change the colors :D
3146 2010-12-16 20:03:30 <genjix> ok
3147 2010-12-16 20:03:39 <MT`AwAy> Tester: I do not understand the concept of "bounce" applied to "water"
3148 2010-12-16 20:04:03 * MT`AwAy google
3149 2010-12-16 20:04:05 * MT`AwAy open youtube
3150 2010-12-16 20:04:05 <Tester> New high-speed cameras show water bounces like a ball
3151 2010-12-16 20:04:21 <Tester> and each bounce half goes in the lake
3152 2010-12-16 20:04:31 <Tester> eactly half
3153 2010-12-16 20:05:01 <EvanR-work> a written work can be copywrited
3154 2010-12-16 20:05:21 <MT`AwAy> mh, I could do that in world of goo
3155 2010-12-16 20:05:22 <Tester> water is binary
3156 2010-12-16 20:05:34 <MT`AwAy> :D
3157 2010-12-16 20:05:38 oruchrocehrhurce has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3158 2010-12-16 20:05:46 <Tester> water knows how to count
3159 2010-12-16 20:05:52 <kiba> what was the price of bitcoin before the slashdotting event
3160 2010-12-16 20:05:55 <MT`AwAy> scientific playing with water while they could play with more weird stuff... http://embed8.koreus.com/00071/201012/cute-explosion.flv
3161 2010-12-16 20:06:25 <Tester> how does water know to divide exactly in half ?
3162 2010-12-16 20:06:39 <Tester> H2O
3163 2010-12-16 20:06:41 <kiba> I am going to annouce the bitcoin wiki
3164 2010-12-16 20:06:44 <kiba> you guys are fine with that?
3165 2010-12-16 20:06:57 <cosurgi> there is a wiki already...
3166 2010-12-16 20:07:37 <kiba> but this wiki is new and better
3167 2010-12-16 20:07:42 <kiba> and have more diverse range of content!
3168 2010-12-16 20:07:54 <MT`AwAy> the existing wiki is for more technical stuff, this new wiki is more community-oriented
3169 2010-12-16 20:08:00 <Tester> so tell wikipedia that bitcoin is powered by H2O
3170 2010-12-16 20:08:14 <Tester> it is binary
3171 2010-12-16 20:08:24 <MT`AwAy> (also the new wiki is easy to backup/mirror thanks to mediawiki xml files)
3172 2010-12-16 20:09:05 <cosurgi> I see..
3173 2010-12-16 20:09:52 <MT`AwAy> cosurgi: https://dump.bitcoin.it/ <- here, mirror the dump_en.xml.bz2 file and you got the whole wiki content, install mediawiki and you can restore the dump in minutes and have a copy of the wiki online
3174 2010-12-16 20:09:59 <Granttt> LOL @ "Deflationary spiral is an economic criticism made against bitcoin that propose that price falling below cost would eventually lead to the collapse of the currency.
3175 2010-12-16 20:09:59 <Granttt> [edit] Economic history
3176 2010-12-16 20:09:59 <Granttt> The first deflationary economic growth is a phrase of economic growth caused by the slashdot effect. From there, we see the the price of bitcoin rose to 0.06 BTC. "
3177 2010-12-16 20:10:45 <cosurgi> huh?
3178 2010-12-16 20:10:55 <Tester> the value of bitcoin is also the block chain not the coins
3179 2010-12-16 20:10:56 <cosurgi> how can price of 1 BTC rise to 0.06 BTC ?
3180 2010-12-16 20:11:18 <MT`AwAy> cosurgi: I think he meant USD
3181 2010-12-16 20:11:31 <genjix> MT`AwAy: better?
3182 2010-12-16 20:11:38 <cosurgi> ok.
3183 2010-12-16 20:11:40 <Tester> the handle spaces are also key - no pun intended
3184 2010-12-16 20:11:43 cdecker has joined
3185 2010-12-16 20:11:54 <cosurgi> but it's 1 BTC = 0.2 USD or so....
3186 2010-12-16 20:12:13 <Tester> having well known account numbers as an example
3187 2010-12-16 20:12:14 <MT`AwAy> genjix: at least it doesn't look exactly like en.wikipedia.org, we'll avoid some trolls :p
3188 2010-12-16 20:12:21 <genjix> :p
3189 2010-12-16 20:12:36 <MT`AwAy> genjix: anyway if you can improve Template:stub ... :D
3190 2010-12-16 20:13:00 cdecker has quit (Client Quit)
3191 2010-12-16 20:13:19 <genjix> MT`AwAy: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Template:MainPage_FAQ
3192 2010-12-16 20:13:23 cdecker has joined
3193 2010-12-16 20:13:31 <genjix> when you want to edit template, you edit that page for faq
3194 2010-12-16 20:13:41 <MT`AwAy> genjix: I know how mediawiki templates work
3195 2010-12-16 20:13:46 <genjix> aha ok
3196 2010-12-16 20:13:46 kiba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3197 2010-12-16 20:13:54 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page <- for info I added "Economics" to the "Topic central"
3198 2010-12-16 20:14:24 <Tester> artificial scarcity is also a feature
3199 2010-12-16 20:14:37 <Tester> it is throttled
3200 2010-12-16 20:14:44 <altamic> cc card interchange fees capped now http://www.zerohedge.com/article/visa-plunges-following-fed-announcement-interchange-fees
3201 2010-12-16 20:14:55 <genjix> ok good
3202 2010-12-16 20:15:17 <genjix> I'm still sorting out faq
3203 2010-12-16 20:15:21 <Tester> visa is a different animal because charge backs and scammers are a huge cost
3204 2010-12-16 20:15:25 <appamatto> altamic, what a kludge. Hard to tell which side to root for
3205 2010-12-16 20:16:02 yebyen has joined
3206 2010-12-16 20:16:12 <yebyen> fuh
3207 2010-12-16 20:16:23 jcw9_ has joined
3208 2010-12-16 20:16:39 <Tester> bitcoin is closer to eGold
3209 2010-12-16 20:16:45 sgtstein1 has joined
3210 2010-12-16 20:17:04 sgtstein1 has left ()
3211 2010-12-16 20:17:04 <Tester> could be tied together
3212 2010-12-16 20:17:16 Dr_Pangloss has joined
3213 2010-12-16 20:17:17 jcw9 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3214 2010-12-16 20:17:48 <Tester> but governments are terrified of what they call Money Storage Businesses
3215 2010-12-16 20:18:06 <Tester> years ago they started msb.gov
3216 2010-12-16 20:18:08 <genjix> MT`AwAy: ok finished. check outmain page
3217 2010-12-16 20:18:08 <yebyen> you mean banks?
3218 2010-12-16 20:18:29 <yebyen> i mean, it sounds dangerous, they're not planning on issuing any loans...
3219 2010-12-16 20:18:32 <Tester> no MSB is gift cards - travelers checks etc
3220 2010-12-16 20:18:32 <Granttt> is there some sort of bug @ mtgox or is the bug in my head, heres a transaction: i bought 10.20 units of BTC at 0.22221, but he'res what my trans history shows: 10.13 for 0.2236 (the price difference alone = 0.67%, why am i also receiving 0.67% less BTC's ?) isn't that dual charge ?
3221 2010-12-16 20:18:52 <MT`AwAy> genjix: now you can edit stuff you want, improve and/or create articles, etc
3222 2010-12-16 20:18:57 <genjix> yep
3223 2010-12-16 20:19:02 <genjix> hope you like it!
3224 2010-12-16 20:19:07 <yebyen> Granttt: i saw that a while ago and thought it was a bug worth ignoring
3225 2010-12-16 20:19:20 <yebyen> 0.065% is so low anyway
3226 2010-12-16 20:19:27 <Tester> as long as interest is not paid the government sort of likes it
3227 2010-12-16 20:19:33 <Tester> to a limit
3228 2010-12-16 20:19:34 <[Noodles]> Granttt: its not a bug, it's a feature, you pay 0.65% fee per trade
3229 2010-12-16 20:19:45 <Granttt> well im paying it twice
3230 2010-12-16 20:19:50 <Tester> $100 per account is max some people will touch
3231 2010-12-16 20:19:58 <yebyen> thats crazy
3232 2010-12-16 20:20:14 <Granttt> my order was at 0.22221, not 0.2236 (theres the 0.65%, actually thats 0.67% but ok)
3233 2010-12-16 20:20:14 <yebyen> i have an account that my bank tells me, if i don't keep 2000, they're going to deduct 5.00 every month
3234 2010-12-16 20:20:18 <yebyen> or 4.99
3235 2010-12-16 20:20:22 <yebyen> and another one for 1500
3236 2010-12-16 20:20:30 <Tester> they are a bank
3237 2010-12-16 20:20:36 <MT`AwAy> yebyen: so if you don't have 2000 they make sure you'll never have 2000
3238 2010-12-16 20:20:37 <Granttt> but then im also getting 0.65% less btc's than the actual order, where do the btws dissapear ?
3239 2010-12-16 20:20:54 <Tester> money storage business is different animal
3240 2010-12-16 20:20:54 <MT`AwAy> mtgox: the fee is 0.65% or 0.065% ?
3241 2010-12-16 20:21:04 <yebyen> MT`AwAy: right, but the point is, it's crazy to work with these people if you will only do 100 per account
3242 2010-12-16 20:21:15 <Granttt> 0.65% for each trade
3243 2010-12-16 20:21:17 <yebyen> since the fee is waaaaay more than 0.65%
3244 2010-12-16 20:21:34 <yebyen> but on 2000 doesn't look so bad
3245 2010-12-16 20:21:38 <Tester> postage stamps may be under MSB
3246 2010-12-16 20:21:39 <MT`AwAy> so the page is wrong
3247 2010-12-16 20:21:39 <yebyen> or 1995
3248 2010-12-16 20:21:54 <MT`AwAy> fixed
3249 2010-12-16 20:22:00 <Tester> you store money in postage stamps for future use
3250 2010-12-16 20:22:15 <Tester> no interest is paid
3251 2010-12-16 20:22:23 <yebyen> baloney
3252 2010-12-16 20:22:28 <Tester> no interest is promised
3253 2010-12-16 20:22:32 <yebyen> if the rate goes up, then interest is paid
3254 2010-12-16 20:22:46 <yebyen> i am buying the right to mail 35 letters with my 35*0.45
3255 2010-12-16 20:22:51 <Tester> they had Forever Stamps
3256 2010-12-16 20:22:51 <yebyen> if that's what it's up to, by now
3257 2010-12-16 20:23:24 <yebyen> interest ~= inflation
3258 2010-12-16 20:23:24 <Tester> in 10 years those .45 stamps mail less
3259 2010-12-16 20:23:33 <yebyen> bitcoin depends on it
3260 2010-12-16 20:24:29 <altamic> today achievements: http://yfrog.com/h0jwjp
3261 2010-12-16 20:24:41 <Tester> msb.gov became big when eGold appeared
3262 2010-12-16 20:24:49 <[Noodles]> Granttt: you get less BTC, but you pay what you ordered, you dont pay 100%+fee, you only receive 100%-fee
3263 2010-12-16 20:25:36 <Granttt> ok i guess its just a weird way of adding fees, im used to see "Gross expense + commission" on seperate lines
3264 2010-12-16 20:25:54 <genjix> hey all! Our bitcoin project has been generating TONS of interest in non-bitcoin related forums ( http://bit.ly/esg75R http://bit.ly/fICY05 )... Tonight at 2200 GMT we are holding a public meeting/Q&A session and most likely there will be a lot of people asking questions about Bitcoin. It'd be nice to have some of you guys around on our chan #pokerface for the meeting to help answer Bitcoin-related questions that we might not be able to.
3265 2010-12-16 20:25:59 <Granttt> i guess the less btc's is from the other side of the trade
3266 2010-12-16 20:27:12 <Tester> then you get into arbitrage and house accounts
3267 2010-12-16 20:27:13 chaord has joined
3268 2010-12-16 20:27:31 <[Noodles]> no, the less btc is because mtgox takes his fee away instead of adding them to your bill
3269 2010-12-16 20:27:39 <Granttt> they add it to my bill
3270 2010-12-16 20:27:48 <[Noodles]> no
3271 2010-12-16 20:28:00 <[Noodles]> that's not your bill, it's the resulting price
3272 2010-12-16 20:28:04 <Granttt> my limit order is at $0.22221 but im being charged: 0.2236
3273 2010-12-16 20:28:05 <Insty> why are pepople editing wiki.bitcoin.it rather than the main site wiki? http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php
3274 2010-12-16 20:28:06 <[Noodles]> after fees
3275 2010-12-16 20:28:19 <mizerydearia> Pizza4BTC update: Restaurant selection by proximity is functional. Do you think 16km is large enough proximity range for restaurants to list when ordering a pizza? Does anyone order pizza from more than 16km away from where they are?
3276 2010-12-16 20:28:41 <Tester> sheesh 2 km
3277 2010-12-16 20:28:45 <Granttt> is that because it's a dark&normal order ?
3278 2010-12-16 20:28:58 <[Noodles]> your order was "for $10" and you didnt pay more than $10, you just get less btc and so pay a little more per btc
3279 2010-12-16 20:29:16 <Granttt> um no :P
3280 2010-12-16 20:29:26 <MT`AwAy> [05:26:37] <Insty> why are pepople editing wiki.bitcoin.it rather than the main site wiki? http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php <- because bitcoin.it looks better, is community oriented, and anyone can mirror it
3281 2010-12-16 20:29:32 <[Noodles]> it's still just a one time fee, at least on my trade-history
3282 2010-12-16 20:29:45 <genjix> because tiki wiki looks ugly
3283 2010-12-16 20:29:50 <genjix> ghetto-wiki
3284 2010-12-16 20:29:56 <MT`AwAy> genjix: dokuwiki p
3285 2010-12-16 20:29:56 <MT`AwAy> :p
3286 2010-12-16 20:30:04 <MT`AwAy> (but yes, looks ugly)
3287 2010-12-16 20:30:05 <genjix> poorman-wiki
3288 2010-12-16 20:30:08 <altamic> enter gollum
3289 2010-12-16 20:30:15 <[Noodles]> but your right that it's a strange way to "take" fees instead of adding them
3290 2010-12-16 20:30:24 <Granttt> ok, look at #bicoin market, heres one trade: <+gribble> MTG| TRADE| 10.2 @ $0.22221 on my account i see: 12/16/10 14:40 Bought BTC 10.13 for 0.2236 10.134 -2.266
3291 2010-12-16 20:30:59 <Insty> just seems silly to duplicate effort. but gl.
3292 2010-12-16 20:31:12 <Granttt> i still dont understand, its easier to assume it works that way lol
3293 2010-12-16 20:31:15 chaord has left ()
3294 2010-12-16 20:31:27 <MT`AwAy> Insty: then edit bitcoin.it ;)
3295 2010-12-16 20:32:28 <altamic> MT: do you own bitcoin.it?
3296 2010-12-16 20:32:32 <MT`AwAy> altamic: yes
3297 2010-12-16 20:32:41 <MT`AwAy> altamic: I also own bitcoin.in and bitcoin.at :D
3298 2010-12-16 20:32:52 <altamic> heh
3299 2010-12-16 20:33:18 <appamatto> genjix, what is this about a Q&A session?
3300 2010-12-16 20:33:25 Tester has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3301 2010-12-16 20:33:40 <genjix> appamatto: #pokerface or do you mean what's it about?
3302 2010-12-16 20:34:46 <OneFixt> Why did m0's miner stop using vectors?
3303 2010-12-16 20:34:55 <appamatto> What's it about?
3304 2010-12-16 20:35:31 Guest86246 has joined
3305 2010-12-16 20:35:38 <MT`AwAy> altamic: btw you'll also notice I used proper SSL OV certificates :p
3306 2010-12-16 20:35:47 <appamatto> What is pokerface for?
3307 2010-12-16 20:36:19 <Granttt> OneFixt: my m0 still uses them
3308 2010-12-16 20:38:51 <OneFixt> I get an error when using vectors with 5970
3309 2010-12-16 20:39:27 <OneFixt> Does it work better for NVIDIA than ATI? Or is there a way to get ATI to use vectors?
3310 2010-12-16 20:39:54 <tcatm> OneFixt: There's no (big) performance gain.
3311 2010-12-16 20:39:56 <Granttt> ati @ the beta catalyst 10.12 works faster with vectors
3312 2010-12-16 20:40:37 <Granttt> if i mine without vectors now i get ~20% less performance that with catalyst 10.10, but if i use vectors i get the 10.10 perfomance
3313 2010-12-16 20:40:45 <Granttt> than*
3314 2010-12-16 20:41:41 <OneFixt> Is there any use for vectors with 10.10?
3315 2010-12-16 20:42:19 <Granttt> i didnt notice any boost with 10.10
3316 2010-12-16 20:42:31 <OneFixt> Ok, thanks for your help.
3317 2010-12-16 20:42:48 theymos has joined
3318 2010-12-16 20:43:07 Grantt has joined
3319 2010-12-16 20:43:33 <EvanR-work> how much does it cost (in bitcoins) to create a bitcoin? how much does it cost (in terms of dollars) to create a dollar bill?
3320 2010-12-16 20:43:34 <altamic> hi theymos
3321 2010-12-16 20:43:38 <theymos> Hi.
3322 2010-12-16 20:43:56 <altamic> I would like to say thank you for blockexplorer
3323 2010-12-16 20:44:15 <theymos> You're welcome. I'm glad it's useful.
3324 2010-12-16 20:44:23 <MT`AwAy> altamic: look at the footer to say thanks :D
3325 2010-12-16 20:44:23 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
3326 2010-12-16 20:44:25 Grantt is now known as Granttt
3327 2010-12-16 20:44:27 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
3328 2010-12-16 20:44:27 Granttt has joined
3329 2010-12-16 20:45:09 <MT`AwAy> theymos: btw https://bitcoin.it/ <- a new wiki with ability to backup, I think BBE might have its place in there :)
3330 2010-12-16 20:45:16 <altamic> it is very useful/informative
3331 2010-12-16 20:45:40 <Granttt> EvanR: dollar, lets see tax increase for future generations (inflation expense), plus additional cost of interest (debt must be created when dollar is created to avoid price collapse). Pretty expensive
3332 2010-12-16 20:45:42 <tcatm> EvanR-work: about $0.01/BTC + initial hardware costs
3333 2010-12-16 20:49:52 <EvanR-work> Granttt: i was just talking about the material
3334 2010-12-16 20:49:57 <EvanR-work> manufacturing
3335 2010-12-16 20:50:00 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: what do you mean by "ability to back up" ?
3336 2010-12-16 20:50:11 <EvanR-work> so ignoring the cost of the factor, or in the case of bitcoin the gpus
3337 2010-12-16 20:50:12 <nanotube> is there a public 'clone this wiki' api?
3338 2010-12-16 20:50:14 <EvanR-work> factory
3339 2010-12-16 20:50:47 <theymos> Thanks for the BBE donation. :)
3340 2010-12-16 20:51:11 <Granttt> EvanR: the dollar costs virtually nothing, its a printing press
3341 2010-12-16 20:51:27 <Granttt> of course you need to take into account it must be approved by the FED board
3342 2010-12-16 20:51:29 <EvanR-work> well i heard the new 100$ bills were pretty pricy
3343 2010-12-16 20:51:37 <Granttt> and the treasury
3344 2010-12-16 20:51:38 <EvanR-work> with high tech crap
3345 2010-12-16 20:51:39 <nanotube> EvanR-work: --^ yea... the wouldn't be printing a shitload of them if it was costly. hehe
3346 2010-12-16 20:51:59 <altamic> theymos: :)
3347 2010-12-16 20:52:04 <nanotube> treasury doesn't like to lose money on the printing of its own bills.
3348 2010-12-16 20:56:48 <Guest86246> any idea where to get a nice gold bitcoin icon?
3349 2010-12-16 20:57:00 <albatross_> ATI STREAM SDK 2.3!!!!!!!!!!!
3350 2010-12-16 20:57:07 <Guest86246> I see a lot of small ones
3351 2010-12-16 21:00:28 <xelister> albatross_: yeah. It sucks.
3352 2010-12-16 21:00:50 <albatross_> lol...did not fix your issues i take it?
3353 2010-12-16 21:01:10 <xelister> albatross_: what issues
3354 2010-12-16 21:01:21 <xelister> sdk 2.3 sucks because it is slow/bad for multi gpu sam as 2.2
3355 2010-12-16 21:01:41 <albatross_> really? fuu...i thought they would fix that in this one
3356 2010-12-16 21:01:43 <xelister> to make it suck more, this sdk 2.3 is needed for 6xxx cards, so 6xxx card owners are fuuucked :) this cards are lmost useless for bitcoin
3357 2010-12-16 21:01:50 <xelister> afaik
3358 2010-12-16 21:03:31 feep has joined
3359 2010-12-16 21:03:38 <feep> hi, repasting from #bitcoin
3360 2010-12-16 21:03:49 <feep> [21:53:39] <feep> I remember reading the beginning of a book detailing an attempt to set up an anonymous alternate currency (yes, just like bitcoin) and I'm trying to find it but I can't :( [21:53:55] <feep> don't remember any significant things like names, titles or sentence fragments [21:53:59] <feep> any idea what it was called?
3361 2010-12-16 21:03:59 <xelister> Diablo-D3: btw, interested in 100 BTC for making your miner to NOT turn any computer into useless piece of shit of desktop while your miner is running?
3362 2010-12-16 21:04:47 <xelister> in example, movie playing, using qt apps, etc, is uselless and eats ALL CPU TIME with current Diablo-D3 miner
3363 2010-12-16 21:05:25 <Granttt> xelister: set lower priority on it ? (and higher on qt)
3364 2010-12-16 21:05:27 <xelister> computer behaves as if one would sitck an SiS graphics VGA card from 1998 year in it
3365 2010-12-16 21:05:40 <xelister> Granttt: priority settings of linux kernel have no effect on GPU settings
3366 2010-12-16 21:05:52 <Granttt> linux sux ;)
3367 2010-12-16 21:05:54 <Granttt> jk
3368 2010-12-16 21:05:55 <xelister> system does not controll GPU usage concurency afaik on any system
3369 2010-12-16 21:06:07 <xelister> at least in such complex OpenCL use case
3370 2010-12-16 21:06:47 <xelister> well I think I will add a throlling option to the miner I use then, but some auto-detect would be nice.
3371 2010-12-16 21:06:47 <feep> it does on intel graphics, afaik
3372 2010-12-16 21:06:51 <feep> but not with binary drivers
3373 2010-12-16 21:07:00 <feep> .. ignore the empty line
3374 2010-12-16 21:07:01 <xelister> feep: yea.. ;) so...
3375 2010-12-16 21:08:09 <feep> anyway it really irks me that I can't find the thing
3376 2010-12-16 21:08:14 <feep> I've been looking for an hour or so
3377 2010-12-16 21:09:23 kiba has joined
3378 2010-12-16 21:14:40 <MT`AwAy> [05:48:44] <nanotube> is there a public 'clone this wiki' api? <- it's the same as wikipedia
3379 2010-12-16 21:14:57 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: it's not an api, it's daily xml backup files in https://dump.bitcoin.it/
3380 2010-12-16 21:15:15 <MT`AwAy> anyone can easily take those and get the wiki data live anywhere
3381 2010-12-16 21:15:20 slush_cz1 has joined
3382 2010-12-16 21:15:36 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: ah exportpages?
3383 2010-12-16 21:15:48 <nanotube> mm dump....
3384 2010-12-16 21:16:09 <nanotube> interesting... does wikipedia also have these dumps?
3385 2010-12-16 21:16:10 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: mwimport
3386 2010-12-16 21:16:15 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: of course
3387 2010-12-16 21:16:20 Guest86246 is now known as dduane
3388 2010-12-16 21:16:20 <nanotube> heh ic
3389 2010-12-16 21:16:35 <kiba> yes
3390 2010-12-16 21:16:38 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: http://download.wikimedia.org/
3391 2010-12-16 21:16:50 <MT`AwAy> because of that, the mirroring process is documented on many sites
3392 2010-12-16 21:17:56 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3393 2010-12-16 21:18:36 <nanotube> cool
3394 2010-12-16 21:18:51 <kiba> we got 107 edits in a single day
3395 2010-12-16 21:18:53 <dduane> I've got a new bitcoin based website
3396 2010-12-16 21:18:53 <kiba> Yay!
3397 2010-12-16 21:18:54 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: so anyone can take my daily dumps :)
3398 2010-12-16 21:19:02 <dduane> If anyone is interested in taking a look at my concept
3399 2010-12-16 21:19:06 <dduane> I'd be glad to get some feedback
3400 2010-12-16 21:19:14 <dduane> its at http://bitcoinbonus.com
3401 2010-12-16 21:19:59 <kiba> how will you make money?
3402 2010-12-16 21:20:12 <kiba> is the bitcoin wiki announced yet?
3403 2010-12-16 21:20:49 <dduane> well
3404 2010-12-16 21:20:59 <dduane> if people sign up, I get a referral bonus
3405 2010-12-16 21:21:05 <EvanR-work> taking MT`AwAy's dumps. now that could sell
3406 2010-12-16 21:21:07 <dduane> and don't have to pay for my server hosting
3407 2010-12-16 21:21:35 * kiba announces bitcoin wiki
3408 2010-12-16 21:22:16 <dduane> where is the bitcoin wiki ?
3409 2010-12-16 21:22:21 <nanotube> bitcoin.org/wiki
3410 2010-12-16 21:22:31 <nanotube> but that's probably not what kiba had in mind... :)
3411 2010-12-16 21:23:11 <kiba> so...
3412 2010-12-16 21:23:53 <MT`AwAy> kiba: I'm posting on forum
3413 2010-12-16 21:24:16 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3414 2010-12-16 21:24:52 <kiba> I just posted the thread
3415 2010-12-16 21:25:02 <RichardG> <kiba> we got 107 edits in a single day
3416 2010-12-16 21:25:08 <RichardG> all I do is khash report edits.
3417 2010-12-16 21:25:22 <MT`AwAy> oh
3418 2010-12-16 21:25:22 <MT`AwAy> :D
3419 2010-12-16 21:25:36 <MT`AwAy> I'll reply with my argumentary
3420 2010-12-16 21:25:50 darrob has joined
3421 2010-12-16 21:26:48 <albatross_> anyone know if there has been work done creating a short name lookup for bitcoin addresses (DNS-like stuff). So, i could send BTC from the client to abc@xyz.com, which then gets translated in the background to actual btc address
3422 2010-12-16 21:27:00 <TD> not that i know of
3423 2010-12-16 21:27:09 <edcba> how that would work ??
3424 2010-12-16 21:27:10 Sapians is now known as Away!~me@os-dsl-0807.bmts.com|Sapians
3425 2010-12-16 21:27:50 <kiba> bitdns?
3426 2010-12-16 21:27:54 <TD> heh
3427 2010-12-16 21:28:02 <albatross_> i put in 'edcba' in the client when sending. it looks up that string against a server that holds mapping. server returns BTC address for 'edcba' and payment is sent
3428 2010-12-16 21:28:03 <edcba> yes it could work like dns of course
3429 2010-12-16 21:28:07 <nanotube> would need a client patch. and, i think someone's working on that.
3430 2010-12-16 21:28:10 <edcba> but i don't see the abc@ part
3431 2010-12-16 21:28:33 <albatross_> whatever, text could be anything you register
3432 2010-12-16 21:28:51 <edcba> you would just register a string ?
3433 2010-12-16 21:28:53 <edcba> hmm
3434 2010-12-16 21:28:59 <edcba> seems a good idea finally
3435 2010-12-16 21:29:00 <albatross_> nanotube: i'm just surprised it hasn't been done yet
3436 2010-12-16 21:29:15 <edcba> it would replace trademark and dns at same time
3437 2010-12-16 21:29:58 <kiba> bitcoiners are lazy
3438 2010-12-16 21:30:13 <edcba> very lazy
3439 2010-12-16 21:30:18 <TD> what if you want to change your bitcoin address?
3440 2010-12-16 21:30:34 <edcba> TD: what if you lose car keys ?
3441 2010-12-16 21:30:44 <TD> well, then that really sucks
3442 2010-12-16 21:30:49 <TD> ideally bitcoin would not suck :)
3443 2010-12-16 21:30:52 <albatross_> TD: whoever was your bitcoinnamedns provider would have to support that function
3444 2010-12-16 21:30:55 Azetab has joined
3445 2010-12-16 21:32:23 <nanotube> albatross_: it needs a client modification... which would be a significant adoption barrier.
3446 2010-12-16 21:33:23 <albatross_> nanotube: why is that? it would be a fairly small patch. unless someone is opposed to this conceptually, i don't see why it would be rejected
3447 2010-12-16 21:34:16 <edcba> i think we really need to separate timestamping part of bitcoin
3448 2010-12-16 21:34:26 <nanotube> albatross_: no arguing that it wouldn't be fairly small - but no idea if you'd get satoshi to accept it.
3449 2010-12-16 21:35:02 <nanotube> TD: it just has to be a dns txt record. you can change those at any time, for a domain you own.
3450 2010-12-16 21:35:15 <TD> yeah, but lots of people don't control their own domain
3451 2010-12-16 21:35:34 <TD> you could add a basic directory service no trouble, i guess
3452 2010-12-16 21:35:36 <edcba> if they don't control it that's not really their own
3453 2010-12-16 21:35:39 feep has left ("Konversation terminated!")
3454 2010-12-16 21:35:45 <davux> i always have the same segfault when I close bitcoin
3455 2010-12-16 21:35:47 thrashaholic has joined
3456 2010-12-16 21:35:51 <albatross_> nanotube: well, i think everyone would agree that it would be easier to just type 'mom' or 'mom@momweb.com' instead of having to copy paste btc address...maybe not thiough
3457 2010-12-16 21:35:53 nova has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3458 2010-12-16 21:36:01 <davux> exception something
3459 2010-12-16 21:36:06 <thrashaholic> that'll be up in a couple of weeks
3460 2010-12-16 21:36:08 <thrashaholic> i promise
3461 2010-12-16 21:36:10 <thrashaholic> lol
3462 2010-12-16 21:36:14 <nanotube> albatross_: type? copy paste is always easier than typing. :)
3463 2010-12-16 21:36:14 <TD> well, bear in mind some people now mostly interact via Facebook where there is no user-visible explicit ID
3464 2010-12-16 21:36:18 <thrashaholic> as soon as i get some free time this weekend
3465 2010-12-16 21:36:23 <TD> the nature of identity online is changing
3466 2010-12-16 21:36:35 <TD> not saying it's a bad idea to have a simple string->string translation though
3467 2010-12-16 21:36:41 <nanotube> albatross_: but as i said, it's possible. but i wouldn't give you any guarantees as to whether satoshi would take it in.
3468 2010-12-16 21:37:02 <nanotube> thrashaholic is working on an imlementation though...
3469 2010-12-16 21:37:17 <thrashaholic> you also have to take into account IRL transactions
3470 2010-12-16 21:37:23 <thrashaholic> try reciting a btc address over the phone
3471 2010-12-16 21:37:33 <thrashaholic> or even remembering one in person
3472 2010-12-16 21:37:39 <albatross_> thrashaholic gets me :)
3473 2010-12-16 21:37:40 <thrashaholic> the internets isn't the end-all-be-all
3474 2010-12-16 21:38:09 <albatross_> what are you stuck on? patch or server code?
3475 2010-12-16 21:38:14 <thrashaholic> im not stuck
3476 2010-12-16 21:38:14 <albatross_> or just lazy :)
3477 2010-12-16 21:38:21 <thrashaholic> not lazy, just busy with life
3478 2010-12-16 21:38:34 <edcba> yes time is the problem usually :)
3479 2010-12-16 21:38:36 <thrashaholic> things that make me money > things i do for fun
3480 2010-12-16 21:38:39 <albatross_> how complex is your server?
3481 2010-12-16 21:38:42 <nanotube> thrashaholic: maybe albatross_ is up for helping you out? :)
3482 2010-12-16 21:38:51 <albatross_> i am
3483 2010-12-16 21:38:55 <thrashaholic> if you want to write the client patch, that'd be swell
3484 2010-12-16 21:39:09 <edcba> just to allow ppl to help you need to do a lot of docs
3485 2010-12-16 21:39:12 <thrashaholic> i'd actually prefer a patch and a seperate program, honestly
3486 2010-12-16 21:39:16 <nanotube> thrashaholic: you'd have to give him your spec for the txt record format...
3487 2010-12-16 21:39:35 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3488 2010-12-16 21:39:59 <albatross_> a separate program?
3489 2010-12-16 21:40:07 <thrashaholic> the server isn't very complex, it's like, 400 or so lines of erlang, but i got that covered
3490 2010-12-16 21:40:08 <thrashaholic> yes
3491 2010-12-16 21:40:10 * edcba lookup spf spec
3492 2010-12-16 21:40:24 <albatross_> why?
3493 2010-12-16 21:40:30 <thrashaholic> it's the unix way
3494 2010-12-16 21:40:47 <albatross_> oh...i thought something else. gotcha
3495 2010-12-16 21:40:51 <thrashaholic> and because doing dns resolution cross platform is a bitch, and i'd rather not introduce yet another boost library into the mix
3496 2010-12-16 21:41:16 <nanotube> eh, what's another boost library between friends? :)
3497 2010-12-16 21:41:24 <albatross_> 25MB?
3498 2010-12-16 21:41:27 <albatross_> :)
3499 2010-12-16 21:41:34 <nanotube> hehe
3500 2010-12-16 21:41:41 <thrashaholic> my first one i used a boost library but i'd rather just write it by hand :)
3501 2010-12-16 21:41:50 <thrashaholic> well, for windows
3502 2010-12-16 21:41:56 <thrashaholic> anything with libresolv is easy
3503 2010-12-16 21:43:40 <genjix> hey all! Our bitcoin project has been generating TONS of interest in non-bitcoin related forums ( http://bit.ly/esg75R http://bit.ly/fICY05 )... In 30 mins we are holding a public meeting/Q&A session and most likely there will be a lot of people asking questions about Bitcoin. It'd be nice to have some of you guys around on our chan #pokerface for the meeting to help answer Bitcoin-related questions that we might not be able to.
3504 2010-12-16 21:44:33 <edcba> ok better to use something else than a TXT record it seems
3505 2010-12-16 21:44:51 <thrashaholic> if i can get someone to work on the client-side portion, and then get necro to deal with a bunch of the website shit i can finish my rewrite of the server and be done pretty quickly =D
3506 2010-12-16 21:44:56 <thrashaholic> edcba: no
3507 2010-12-16 21:45:13 <edcba> you can do your own record or use another
3508 2010-12-16 21:45:17 <thrashaholic> no
3509 2010-12-16 21:45:20 <edcba> why ?
3510 2010-12-16 21:45:21 <thrashaholic> we're not adding to the dns spec here
3511 2010-12-16 21:45:24 <thrashaholic> txt is fine
3512 2010-12-16 21:45:28 <albatross_> ok thrashaholic. i'll take a crack at it
3513 2010-12-16 21:45:30 <thrashaholic> txt is what everything else uses
3514 2010-12-16 21:45:34 <thrashaholic> spf IS a txt record
3515 2010-12-16 21:45:40 <edcba> or a SPF record...
3516 2010-12-16 21:45:42 <thrashaholic> domainkeys, etc...etc...etc..
3517 2010-12-16 21:46:02 <thrashaholic> trust me, i didnt just think of this yesterday morning :)
3518 2010-12-16 21:46:09 <edcba> but i don't think polluting TXT is a good idea
3519 2010-12-16 21:46:14 <thrashaholic> lol
3520 2010-12-16 21:46:24 <thrashaholic> how is it polluting? thats what txt is for!
3521 2010-12-16 21:46:25 <edcba> what if every application do his own TXT record ?
3522 2010-12-16 21:46:28 <Azetab> does anyone have a nvidia card and is using Diablo's minter?
3523 2010-12-16 21:46:30 <thrashaholic> and?
3524 2010-12-16 21:46:32 <Azetab> miner*
3525 2010-12-16 21:46:33 <thrashaholic> good for them
3526 2010-12-16 21:46:37 <thrashaholic> that's what it's for
3527 2010-12-16 21:46:49 <edcba> then if you do a TXT query you'll get 25k of text...
3528 2010-12-16 21:46:53 <thrashaholic> no
3529 2010-12-16 21:47:09 <edcba> why not ?
3530 2010-12-16 21:47:18 <thrashaholic> keep reading the specs
3531 2010-12-16 21:47:24 <thrashaholic> look at domain keys
3532 2010-12-16 21:47:31 * edcba look...
3533 2010-12-16 21:48:02 <thrashaholic> ( you should only have 1 txt record per dns record anyway, and there's a limit to the response length )
3534 2010-12-16 21:50:16 pisi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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3543 2010-12-16 21:55:41 <Diablo-D3> 344444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444w78888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
3544 2010-12-16 21:55:42 <Diablo-D3> 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
3545 2010-12-16 21:55:42 <Diablo-D3> 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
3546 2010-12-16 21:55:47 <Diablo-D3> 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
3547 2010-12-16 21:55:52 <Diablo-D3> 888888888888888888888888888888888888888888jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
3548 2010-12-16 21:56:11 <kiba> Diablo-D3: wtf? man
3549 2010-12-16 21:56:21 <kiba> did you die on your keyboard or something?
3550 2010-12-16 21:56:28 <Diablo-D3> iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
3551 2010-12-16 21:56:40 <Sapians> ...wth?
3552 2010-12-16 21:57:11 <Sirius_> spider on keyboard
3553 2010-12-16 21:58:04 <midnightmagic> that is still.. somehow.. pressing return.
3554 2010-12-16 21:58:16 <Sapians> 4w78j..... hardly a path a spider would take when walking on a keyboard
3555 2010-12-16 21:59:08 <Sapians> and that's not even enough chars for each leg to have one :P
3556 2010-12-16 21:59:30 bonsaikitten has joined
3557 2010-12-16 21:59:30 pisi has joined
3558 2010-12-16 21:59:30 schmooo has joined
3559 2010-12-16 21:59:30 wereHamster has joined
3560 2010-12-16 21:59:30 helmut has joined
3561 2010-12-16 21:59:30 comboy has joined
3562 2010-12-16 21:59:30 Remmy has joined
3563 2010-12-16 21:59:30 sgornick has joined
3564 2010-12-16 21:59:50 <thrashaholic> wb splitters
3565 2010-12-16 21:59:57 jcw9_ is now known as jcw9
3566 2010-12-16 22:00:03 <Sapians> hahaha
3567 2010-12-16 22:00:19 <nanotube> maybe Diablo-D3 was trying to warn us of an impending netsplit? :)
3568 2010-12-16 22:00:33 bonsaikitten is now known as Guest29259
3569 2010-12-16 22:01:11 Guest29259 has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
3570 2010-12-16 22:01:34 <Diablo-D3> '67777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777766666666666666666666666mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmi
3571 2010-12-16 22:01:39 <thrashaholic> perhaps
3572 2010-12-16 22:01:49 <thrashaholic> are you an op now, nano?
3573 2010-12-16 22:01:50 <genjix> perfect time for a netsplit -_-
3574 2010-12-16 22:01:53 <thrashaholic> you have a @
3575 2010-12-16 22:02:29 <thrashaholic> too bad the US can't netsplit lol
3576 2010-12-16 22:02:49 DrEeevil has joined
3577 2010-12-16 22:02:59 <Diablo-D3> grr
3578 2010-12-16 22:03:01 <Diablo-D3> fucking cat
3579 2010-12-16 22:03:05 <Diablo-D3> LEAVE MY LAPTOP ALONE
3580 2010-12-16 22:03:05 <thrashaholic> aww
3581 2010-12-16 22:03:12 <kiba> ok, Diablo-D3 didn't dieon the keybaord
3582 2010-12-16 22:03:24 * thrashaholic can't wait until his (hopefully) cr-48 gets here monday
3583 2010-12-16 22:03:25 <thrashaholic> wo0t
3584 2010-12-16 22:03:34 <kiba> cr-48?
3585 2010-12-16 22:03:41 <Diablo-D3> [04:02:28] <xelister> Diablo-D3: btw, interested in 100 BTC for making your miner to NOT turn any computer into useless piece of shit of desktop while your miner is running?
3586 2010-12-16 22:03:41 <Diablo-D3> [04:03:16] <xelister> in example, movie playing, using qt apps, etc, is uselless and eats ALL CPU TIME with current Diablo-D3 miner
3587 2010-12-16 22:03:43 <thrashaholic> chromium notebook thing
3588 2010-12-16 22:03:54 <thrashaholic> lol
3589 2010-12-16 22:04:01 <Diablo-D3> how is that a bug in my miner?
3590 2010-12-16 22:04:05 <thrashaholic> it's not
3591 2010-12-16 22:04:06 <Diablo-D3> thats a bug in the driver, clearly.
3592 2010-12-16 22:04:12 <Diablo-D3> also, QT is _shit_
3593 2010-12-16 22:04:19 <thrashaholic> thank youuuu
3594 2010-12-16 22:04:26 <Diablo-D3> I swear the god they're doing the X api equivilent of glFinish
3595 2010-12-16 22:04:27 * thrashaholic high fives Diablo-D3
3596 2010-12-16 22:04:28 <thrashaholic> fuck QT
3597 2010-12-16 22:04:31 <xelister> Diablo-D3: yeah, so would you work around it
3598 2010-12-16 22:04:37 <Diablo-D3> xelister: how?
3599 2010-12-16 22:04:42 <xelister> Diablo-D3: continued in miner channel
3600 2010-12-16 22:04:44 roberthl has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3601 2010-12-16 22:04:54 <Diablo-D3> lowering performance is not a fix
3602 2010-12-16 22:05:05 <Diablo-D3> xelister: oh no you dont
3603 2010-12-16 22:05:09 <Diablo-D3> Im going to make fun of you in public
3604 2010-12-16 22:05:15 <thrashaholic> yeah i wanna see this
3605 2010-12-16 22:05:18 <Diablo-D3> if you want the fucking bug fixed, TELL AMD, NOT ME
3606 2010-12-16 22:05:23 * thrashaholic gets his popping corn
3607 2010-12-16 22:05:25 <Diablo-D3> theres no reason why any opencl program should fuck over X
3608 2010-12-16 22:05:26 <Diablo-D3> and
3609 2010-12-16 22:05:28 <Diablo-D3> for the record
3610 2010-12-16 22:05:29 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt for me
3611 2010-12-16 22:05:44 <Diablo-D3> the only thing I have to do for extra smoothness is -f 120 (default is 60, and it works fine with 60)
3612 2010-12-16 22:05:56 StrangeCharm has joined
3613 2010-12-16 22:06:05 amiga4000 has joined
3614 2010-12-16 22:06:11 <thrashaholic> its because you wrote it in java! :P
3615 2010-12-16 22:06:12 * thrashaholic ducks
3616 2010-12-16 22:06:24 <Diablo-D3> thrashaholic: not even
3617 2010-12-16 22:06:29 <Diablo-D3> my app uses about 0% cpu time
3618 2010-12-16 22:06:29 <xelister> Diablo-D3: heh say whaaat?
3619 2010-12-16 22:06:33 <thrashaholic> im kidding
3620 2010-12-16 22:06:38 <xelister> Diablo-D3: it is simple as ordering your sisters services,
3621 2010-12-16 22:06:45 matsh has joined
3622 2010-12-16 22:07:04 <xelister> 1. in most inner loop make extra sleep to not use 100% of available time running opencl program but also sleep() the thread
3623 2010-12-16 22:07:12 <Diablo-D3> what inner loop?
3624 2010-12-16 22:07:18 Azetab has quit ()
3625 2010-12-16 22:07:20 <Diablo-D3> the thing uses no processing power.
3626 2010-12-16 22:07:32 <Diablo-D3> it sits there blocked waiting 99.9999% of the time
3627 2010-12-16 22:07:33 <xelister> 2. find some way to detect the case where other application uses gpu - so we should start/stop throlling
3628 2010-12-16 22:07:43 <Diablo-D3> find some way that OPENCL _DOES NOT PROVIDE_?
3629 2010-12-16 22:07:48 <Diablo-D3> how about _fixing the fucking driver_
3630 2010-12-16 22:07:54 <matsh> Hi all! I have problems getting sendfrom to work. I get a 500 back. Anyone out there that have tested it?
3631 2010-12-16 22:07:55 <xelister> yeah
3632 2010-12-16 22:07:58 <thrashaholic> why would you run both a gpu miner and something else using the gpu heavily at the same time
3633 2010-12-16 22:07:59 <Diablo-D3> _where the fix is required to go_
3634 2010-12-16 22:08:08 <Diablo-D3> thrashaholic: the driver should habdle this correctly
3635 2010-12-16 22:08:14 <xelister> Somehow Ati refused to put their 5 best developer on this task RIGHT NOW for the 100 BTC bummer
3636 2010-12-16 22:08:17 <thrashaholic> it should, yes
3637 2010-12-16 22:08:29 <Diablo-D3> thrashaholic: with -f 120, I can run mplayer full screen on a 1080p video
3638 2010-12-16 22:08:31 <nanotube> thrashaholic: yes, apparently i am. :)
3639 2010-12-16 22:08:37 <Diablo-D3> so
3640 2010-12-16 22:08:43 <Diablo-D3> what more can I fucking do
3641 2010-12-16 22:09:18 <Diablo-D3> if the driver is broken, I cant fix that
3642 2010-12-16 22:09:20 <Diablo-D3> at all
3643 2010-12-16 22:09:20 * xelister calls Ati ... yea.. what, what you mean 'we dont know and care who the fuck Diablo-D3 is and what the fuck bitcoind it'.. this is very importnat use case for your card and I am sure you sure in fact put /all/ of your developers on this important tas*DING* hello? heeelo??
3644 2010-12-16 22:09:21 <Diablo-D3> _at all_
3645 2010-12-16 22:09:30 <Diablo-D3> I have zero control over how the kernel is executed
3646 2010-12-16 22:09:33 <Diablo-D3> _none_
3647 2010-12-16 22:09:46 <xelister> Diablo-D3: stop executing the opencl program for some time
3648 2010-12-16 22:09:56 <xelister> what is the granulity actually?
3649 2010-12-16 22:10:08 <Diablo-D3> there is no granularity.
3650 2010-12-16 22:10:18 <Diablo-D3> the driver is in 100% control of how the queue is processed.
3651 2010-12-16 22:10:18 <xelister> oh man you are not helping
3652 2010-12-16 22:10:28 <xelister> I'll just debug its ass then ;)
3653 2010-12-16 22:10:36 <Diablo-D3> theres nothing TO debug
3654 2010-12-16 22:10:39 <Diablo-D3> look at the fucking code.
3655 2010-12-16 22:10:44 <thrashaholic> xelister: its open source, have fun
3656 2010-12-16 22:10:47 <Diablo-D3> I queue the kernel, I check results. This is the loop.
3657 2010-12-16 22:10:47 <xelister> but program controlls what jobs to execute
3658 2010-12-16 22:10:49 <xelister> and if program says to run no jobs?
3659 2010-12-16 22:11:02 <Diablo-D3> if the program doesnt queue a new kernel, your card is not running.
3660 2010-12-16 22:11:17 <Diablo-D3> and hell, you know what?
3661 2010-12-16 22:11:18 akem has joined
3662 2010-12-16 22:11:21 <Diablo-D3> I just restarted my miner
3663 2010-12-16 22:11:24 <Diablo-D3> its running with -f 1
3664 2010-12-16 22:11:28 <xelister> but this is simple, what you dont understand,
3665 2010-12-16 22:11:31 <Diablo-D3> -f fucking 1.
3666 2010-12-16 22:11:40 <Diablo-D3> and my desktop is still in the realm of sanity.
3667 2010-12-16 22:11:43 <albatross_> make
3668 2010-12-16 22:11:51 <Diablo-D3> albatross_: wrong window
3669 2010-12-16 22:11:56 <albatross_> :)
3670 2010-12-16 22:11:59 <xelister> if we want to make miner behave nicelly, just make the program stop running OpenCL programs for a brief fraction of second etc
3671 2010-12-16 22:12:15 <Diablo-D3> xelister: but once you queue the kernel, you CANT control it.
3672 2010-12-16 22:12:19 <xelister> Diablo-D3: but you do not use Qt apps and flash right?
3673 2010-12-16 22:12:28 <Diablo-D3> nope, viewing flash fine here.
3674 2010-12-16 22:12:41 <Diablo-D3> Qt is already known to be extremely broken, this has nothing to do with oepncl.
3675 2010-12-16 22:12:41 <albatross_> there is something else here diablo...for sure. other miners don't use so much cpu. maybe shit opencl impl?
3676 2010-12-16 22:12:51 <Diablo-D3> albatross_: you cant get lower than 0%.
3677 2010-12-16 22:13:17 <Diablo-D3> it spends about 99.9% of its time blocked waiting.
3678 2010-12-16 22:13:35 <Diablo-D3> albatross_: if my miner on your machine is using, say, 100% cpu, you're using sdk 2.2
3679 2010-12-16 22:13:35 <albatross_> oh, i thought he meant 100% cpu use...
3680 2010-12-16 22:13:42 <Diablo-D3> do not use sdk 2.2
3681 2010-12-16 22:13:46 <Diablo-D3> and xelister isnt
3682 2010-12-16 22:13:53 <Diablo-D3> what hes bitching about is Qt is a pile of fucking shit
3683 2010-12-16 22:14:01 <Diablo-D3> the only way to fix this is DONT USE QT
3684 2010-12-16 22:14:04 <Diablo-D3> no one else does
3685 2010-12-16 22:14:10 <Diablo-D3> kde has basically died out
3686 2010-12-16 22:14:18 RG has joined
3687 2010-12-16 22:14:25 <RG> |xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|!pool
3688 2010-12-16 22:14:37 RG has quit (|xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|Client Quit)
3689 2010-12-16 22:14:41 <Zarutian> Diablo-D3: use Tk instead then?
3690 2010-12-16 22:15:00 <Zarutian> s/Tk/Themed Tk/
3691 2010-12-16 22:15:13 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3692 2010-12-16 22:15:47 RichardG has joined
3693 2010-12-16 22:16:21 <Diablo-D3> Zarutian: my miner uses no UI
3694 2010-12-16 22:16:24 <Diablo-D3> Zarutian: hes bitch
3695 2010-12-16 22:16:28 <Diablo-D3> er
3696 2010-12-16 22:16:35 <Diablo-D3> Zarutian: hes bitching that Qt apps freak out
3697 2010-12-16 22:16:44 noagendamarket has joined
3698 2010-12-16 22:16:46 <Diablo-D3> its because they dont use the X drawing API they use correctly
3699 2010-12-16 22:17:01 <Diablo-D3> if you sufficiently rape the GPU with a powerful enough GL app, the same shit happens
3700 2010-12-16 22:17:04 <xelister> Diablo-D3: yeah dont use QT
3701 2010-12-16 22:17:15 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|!pool
3702 2010-12-16 22:17:20 <Diablo-D3> its not only reproducible, its the bane of every KDE user
3703 2010-12-16 22:17:21 <xelister> Diablo-D3: don't use half of the software available for anyway nitche linux desktop
3704 2010-12-16 22:17:24 <xelister> awesome
3705 2010-12-16 22:17:27 <Diablo-D3> half?
3706 2010-12-16 22:17:29 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahaha
3707 2010-12-16 22:17:32 <Diablo-D3> not even a tenth dude
3708 2010-12-16 22:17:32 <thrashaholic> LOL
3709 2010-12-16 22:17:34 Azetab has joined
3710 2010-12-16 22:17:35 <thrashaholic> no way
3711 2010-12-16 22:17:41 <xelister> instead of bitching aobut it, we could start implement a work around
3712 2010-12-16 22:17:52 <xelister> ant instead bitching here ;) I'm already attempting to hack it
3713 2010-12-16 22:17:54 <Diablo-D3> theres at least four different desktop environments that use gtk, all the major apps are gtk, tens of thousands of apps are in gtk
3714 2010-12-16 22:18:10 <thrashaholic> qt doesn't touch my *very* niche linux box
3715 2010-12-16 22:18:11 <Diablo-D3> and anything that uses swt on java (such as eclipse) uses gtk
3716 2010-12-16 22:18:11 <thrashaholic> ever.
3717 2010-12-16 22:18:24 <Diablo-D3> oh, and mono, that god forsaken pile of shit, uses gtk.
3718 2010-12-16 22:18:31 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|Attempting to connect to 173.255.205.10:8335
3719 2010-12-16 22:18:34 <RG> xchat!~tingle@unaffiliated/richardg|remote miner down?
3720 2010-12-16 22:18:49 <Diablo-D3> I have qt installed for exactly _one_ app
3721 2010-12-16 22:18:51 <albatross_> Diablo-D3: so, what is not shit?
3722 2010-12-16 22:18:51 <Diablo-D3> just one
3723 2010-12-16 22:18:53 <Diablo-D3> wvbox.
3724 2010-12-16 22:18:53 <albatross_> :)
3725 2010-12-16 22:18:58 <Diablo-D3> and only vbox.
3726 2010-12-16 22:19:06 <Azetab> RG its been down for a while
3727 2010-12-16 22:19:12 <Diablo-D3> albatross_: gtk does not exhibit this bug
3728 2010-12-16 22:19:54 welterde has joined
3729 2010-12-16 22:20:07 <xelister> Diablo-D3: any idea how to pause the program that is running or is about to run, from inside the thread?
3730 2010-12-16 22:20:09 <LobsterMan> one of my miners just popped up
3731 2010-12-16 22:20:09 <LobsterMan> 16/12/2010 17:13, 00010dc2, accepted
3732 2010-12-16 22:20:09 <LobsterMan> but nothing has shown up in bitcoin
3733 2010-12-16 22:20:11 <xelister> opencl program
3734 2010-12-16 22:20:14 <LobsterMan> is it possible this block got "lost"
3735 2010-12-16 22:20:21 <LobsterMan> or may still show up?
3736 2010-12-16 22:20:45 <xelister> LobsterMan: too bad you dont use the forked diablo's miner that shops like all 5 steps of finding commiting and accpteing found block to report possible problems =)
3737 2010-12-16 22:20:49 <Diablo-D3> xelister: submit a bug report to AMD.
3738 2010-12-16 22:21:02 <xelister> Diablo-D3: I probably will do that as well
3739 2010-12-16 22:21:10 <Diablo-D3> too bad xelister failed to tell LobsterMan that diablominer already does it and has nothing to do with xelister
3740 2010-12-16 22:21:15 <genjix> #pokerface
3741 2010-12-16 22:21:17 <genjix> meeting there
3742 2010-12-16 22:21:21 <genjix> discussion about bitcoin
3743 2010-12-16 22:21:33 <LobsterMan> but at any rate....is there a chance the block can still be credited to me or am i SOL?
3744 2010-12-16 22:22:04 <Diablo-D3> LobsterMan: if the UI doesnt list it, probably not
3745 2010-12-16 22:22:54 <albatross_> wow...nice crowd over there genjix
3746 2010-12-16 22:23:17 <LobsterMan> is is possible there is a but with .19?
3747 2010-12-16 22:23:19 <LobsterMan> <_<
3748 2010-12-16 22:23:40 <LobsterMan> or maybe someone else got the block just a few seconds before me?
3749 2010-12-16 22:24:37 <EvanR-work> LobsterMan demands a recount
3750 2010-12-16 22:24:44 <LobsterMan> i do :|
3751 2010-12-16 22:25:05 <Diablo-D3> well you know what
3752 2010-12-16 22:25:08 <Diablo-D3> you're not getting one
3753 2010-12-16 22:25:15 <Diablo-D3> I didnt get one in 2000, you're not getting one now
3754 2010-12-16 22:25:22 <Diablo-D3> welcome to the post 9/11 bullshit fest we now live in
3755 2010-12-16 22:25:37 <Diablo-D3> now, spread your legs so some TSA agent can shove his gloved fist up your ass
3756 2010-12-16 22:26:29 * LobsterMan cries a little
3757 2010-12-16 22:26:49 <genjix> #pokerface <- bitcoiners get in there. we need you people
3758 2010-12-16 22:26:58 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
3759 2010-12-16 22:27:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97938 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 845 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 1 hour, 9 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14242.51549468
3760 2010-12-16 22:27:11 <matsh> Anyone that cares for a question about sendfrom?
3761 2010-12-16 22:27:13 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,calc 104000
3762 2010-12-16 22:27:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 104000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 5 days, 20 hours, 33 minutes, and 1 second
3763 2010-12-16 22:27:39 <LobsterMan> well i guess this means my next block won't be dropped....if i believe in karma ^_______________^
3764 2010-12-16 22:28:21 <matsh> This works from the command line: ./bitcoind sendtoaddress "1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt" 0.01
3765 2010-12-16 22:28:36 <albatross_> you don't need quotes
3766 2010-12-16 22:28:55 <matsh> I thought that would be the same as this, which fails: ./bitcoind sendfrom "" "1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt" 0.01
3767 2010-12-16 22:28:56 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: Join mining.bitcoin.cz , with current power there are more blocks per day...
3768 2010-12-16 22:29:26 <matsh> Fair enough, but how, then, do I denote the default (empty) account?
3769 2010-12-16 22:29:40 <[Noodles]> denote?
3770 2010-12-16 22:29:53 <matsh> How do I enter the default account?
3771 2010-12-16 22:30:06 <[Noodles]> you don't need to
3772 2010-12-16 22:30:10 <LobsterMan> what's the total mhash of the pooled mining?
3773 2010-12-16 22:30:17 <Diablo-D3> matsh: ""
3774 2010-12-16 22:30:17 <[Noodles]> its not an account, its an address
3775 2010-12-16 22:30:18 <slush_cz1> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
3776 2010-12-16 22:30:29 <LobsterMan> interesting
3777 2010-12-16 22:30:37 Tester has joined
3778 2010-12-16 22:30:38 <LobsterMan> and this is actually working?
3779 2010-12-16 22:30:41 <LobsterMan> O_O
3780 2010-12-16 22:30:41 <[Noodles]> your wallet has lots and lots of addresses and gets new ones everyday
3781 2010-12-16 22:30:43 <matsh> Right, so why doesn't it work? It says I have insufficient funds
3782 2010-12-16 22:30:48 <slush_cz1> of course yes, I made it :-D
3783 2010-12-16 22:31:14 <nanotube> slush_cz1: ah, so the mining.bitcoin.cz is yours?
3784 2010-12-16 22:31:24 <slush_cz1> First block will be confirmed after ~15 blocks
3785 2010-12-16 22:31:28 <slush_cz1> yes
3786 2010-12-16 22:32:17 <matsh> If I do this, how can the C++ code tell what the first argument is: ./bitcoind sendfrom 1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt 0.01
3787 2010-12-16 22:32:41 <matsh> Is it an omitted default account, or is that long string the account name?
3788 2010-12-16 22:33:16 <matsh> Should this work? ./bitcoind sendfrom "" 1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt 0.01
3789 2010-12-16 22:33:37 <LobsterMan> "16/12/2010 17:13, 00010dc2, accepted" is it possible to use block explorer to determine who may have gotten credit for this block if not me?
3790 2010-12-16 22:35:11 <LobsterMan> http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000010dc27f4706688a7e3c58090d9dd035223498eeb3b213e0c44ce2
3791 2010-12-16 22:35:14 <LobsterMan> looks like it was this one
3792 2010-12-16 22:35:17 dsg has quit (Changing host)
3793 2010-12-16 22:35:17 dsg has joined
3794 2010-12-16 22:35:20 <LobsterMan> that's not my address though :\
3795 2010-12-16 22:35:23 <LobsterMan> damn race conditions
3796 2010-12-16 22:35:27 <[Noodles]> matsh, to use the sendfrom command, you first need to create an account and add addresses to that account, you sendfrom <account>, you don't sendfrom <address>
3797 2010-12-16 22:36:01 <[Noodles]> 1MCwBbhNGp5hRm5rC1Aims2YFRe2SXPYKt this is an address, not an account
3798 2010-12-16 22:36:16 <[Noodles]> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=api
3799 2010-12-16 22:36:27 albatross_ has left ()
3800 2010-12-16 22:36:31 <matsh> Yes, I understand, but I want to use the default account
3801 2010-12-16 22:36:39 <matsh> In the sendfrom call
3802 2010-12-16 22:36:46 <[Noodles]> there is no default account
3803 2010-12-16 22:36:51 <matsh> What?
3804 2010-12-16 22:37:00 <kiba> deafult address?
3805 2010-12-16 22:37:10 <[Noodles]> the default account is your wallet==all addresses
3806 2010-12-16 22:37:33 <matsh> The docs say: (unless account is the empty-string-named default account; it behaves like the sendtoaddress method).
3807 2010-12-16 22:37:33 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: 2x chain of three blocks. How? :-)
3808 2010-12-16 22:37:39 <gavinandresen> No, the default account is "" -- the empty-string account.
3809 2010-12-16 22:37:47 <slush_cz1> (from your screenshot on forum)
3810 2010-12-16 22:38:03 <LobsterMan> gmm?
3811 2010-12-16 22:38:04 <LobsterMan> hmm*
3812 2010-12-16 22:38:10 <gavinandresen> ... and matsh has, arguably, found a bug... sendfrom won't let you send from the "" account if the "" account has a negative balance.
3813 2010-12-16 22:38:20 <matsh> So, gavin, should this work: ./bitcoind sendfrom "" xxVFSDFVBFDS 0.01
3814 2010-12-16 22:38:27 <LobsterMan> slush_cz1 from the lost blocks thread?
3815 2010-12-16 22:38:30 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: http://i.imgur.com/2RLbM.png
3816 2010-12-16 22:38:41 <gavinandresen> If the "" account has a negative balance? Good question!
3817 2010-12-16 22:38:53 <nanotube> slush_cz1: nice... how does your system work? how do you verify that people don't cheat, etc?
3818 2010-12-16 22:39:00 <LobsterMan> slush_cz1 that was on -testnet
3819 2010-12-16 22:39:04 <matsh> I don't have negative balance at all
3820 2010-12-16 22:39:10 <slush_cz1> nanotube: I'm recounting their proof of work on the server
3821 2010-12-16 22:39:31 <[Noodles]> if you dont use accounts anyway, why do you need to use sendfrom instead of sendtoaddress?
3822 2010-12-16 22:39:33 <gavinandresen> matsh: what does getbalance "" return?
3823 2010-12-16 22:39:42 <slush_cz1> Sending lowered targets to miners, so they think they solve block for difficulty 1
3824 2010-12-16 22:39:42 <matsh> This works: ./bitcoind sendtoaddress abcabc 0.01
3825 2010-12-16 22:39:55 <matsh> This does not work: ./bitcoind "" abcabc 0.01
3826 2010-12-16 22:39:56 Grantt has joined
3827 2010-12-16 22:39:57 <nanotube> slush_cz1: you must be using some kind of sampling - otherwise you'd be repeating all the work?
3828 2010-12-16 22:39:58 <slush_cz1> each solved block is 1 share
3829 2010-12-16 22:40:00 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
3830 2010-12-16 22:40:05 Grantt is now known as Granttt
3831 2010-12-16 22:40:06 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
3832 2010-12-16 22:40:06 Granttt has joined
3833 2010-12-16 22:40:07 <slush_cz1> only submitted blocks
3834 2010-12-16 22:40:10 <matsh> I'll check
3835 2010-12-16 22:40:43 <matsh> Uh, it returns -0.63 !!!
3836 2010-12-16 22:40:48 <matsh> How the heck?
3837 2010-12-16 22:41:17 <matsh> The bitcoin GUI says I have 0.37 bitcoins... so, there's something I don't get here...
3838 2010-12-16 22:42:01 <gavinandresen> matsh: you must have moved bitcoins from the "" account to another account. Or reassigned a bitcoin address to another account....
3839 2010-12-16 22:42:11 <LobsterMan> slush_cz1 so how does your thing work, on each block that the "pool" generates, each person contributing mhash gets a few coins?
3840 2010-12-16 22:42:22 <slush_cz1> There is a lot of optimization on the table, but it works now and looks like current server is OK up to 4-5 ghash/s
3841 2010-12-16 22:42:25 <gavinandresen> matsh: you running the latest and greatest svn? listaccounts will tell you balances for all your accounts.
3842 2010-12-16 22:42:28 <matsh> I just checked, and the GUI says my balance is 0.37 bitcoins
3843 2010-12-16 22:42:39 <matsh> 0.3.18
3844 2010-12-16 22:42:44 <slush_cz1> described here http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
3845 2010-12-16 22:42:56 <slush_cz1> each solved block with simple target is "1" share
3846 2010-12-16 22:43:07 <gavinandresen> listaccounts won't be in until 0.3.20 comes out.
3847 2010-12-16 22:43:17 Tester has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3848 2010-12-16 22:43:27 <LobsterMan> slush_cz1 how often and how much does your thing pay ouy?
3849 2010-12-16 22:43:27 <slush_cz1> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/ here you see that in current round miners solved 9388 blocks with simple difficulty
3850 2010-12-16 22:43:29 <LobsterMan> out*
3851 2010-12-16 22:43:32 altamic_ has joined
3852 2010-12-16 22:43:39 <LobsterMan> say i have 100mhash to offer, how much could i expect to make and how often?
3853 2010-12-16 22:43:51 <slush_cz1> When block is found, I calculate (share per user) / (total shares) * 50
3854 2010-12-16 22:44:09 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3855 2010-12-16 22:44:18 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,calc 100000
3856 2010-12-16 22:44:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 6 days, 2 hours, 10 minutes, and 20 seconds
3857 2010-12-16 22:44:38 <slush_cz1> Well, every user can select "sending treshold". So when I set treshold to 1, server will send bitcoins to my wallet when reward from all rounds >= 1
3858 2010-12-16 22:44:41 <midnightmagic> ^^ there. 50 btc every 6 days, 2 hours, on average.
3859 2010-12-16 22:44:42 <LobsterMan> so why are they working on a lower difficulty than the actual network?
3860 2010-12-16 22:44:48 <nanotube> slush_cz1: ah, interesting... but what prevents clients from submitting 'share' blocks, but withholding the actual valuable solves?
3861 2010-12-16 22:45:03 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,status
3862 2010-12-16 22:45:03 <gribble> Error: "bc,status" is not a valid command.
3863 2010-12-16 22:45:06 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
3864 2010-12-16 22:45:08 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97938 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 845 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 1 hour, 9 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14242.51549468
3865 2010-12-16 22:46:05 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Why will somebody burn own CPU without possible reward?
3866 2010-12-16 22:46:09 <LobsterMan> NICE
3867 2010-12-16 22:46:13 <LobsterMan> the generation did go through
3868 2010-12-16 22:46:14 <LobsterMan> XD
3869 2010-12-16 22:46:17 <LobsterMan> it just was delayed
3870 2010-12-16 22:46:20 <nanotube> slush_cz1: there is reward. they get a share of your pool generation.
3871 2010-12-16 22:46:22 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3872 2010-12-16 22:46:22 altamic_ is now known as altamic
3873 2010-12-16 22:46:48 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Yes, but when I find hash with high difficulty, I have no motivation to hide it for myself!
3874 2010-12-16 22:47:08 <nanotube> slush_cz1: they do the block crunching as usual, and submit the low-threshold blocks. so this way they lay a claim on a share of your pool's blocks. but they also withhold the actual 50btc blocks, so they get double the reward, essentially.
3875 2010-12-16 22:47:15 <[Noodles]> but they can't use the "winning-hashes" for themselves, makes no sense to keep them
3876 2010-12-16 22:47:30 <slush_cz1> nanotube: ah, you mean this
3877 2010-12-16 22:48:00 <slush_cz1> Block is valuable only for central miner, because there is already signed reward for server's wallet inside!
3878 2010-12-16 22:48:01 <nanotube> [Noodles]: why can't they use the winning hashes for themselves? seems that they can...
3879 2010-12-16 22:48:04 <[Noodles]> different client=different winning hash
3880 2010-12-16 22:48:07 <matsh> getreceivedbyaccount "" 10 returns 0.00
3881 2010-12-16 22:48:14 <tcatm> Won't the miner miss some winning hashes when hashing with lower difficulty?
3882 2010-12-16 22:48:18 <[Noodles]> besides that, slush's pool works on lower difficulties
3883 2010-12-16 22:49:01 <slush_cz1> tcatm: No, we are finding hash which is < low difficulty and it is < than high difficulty. No way to skip high difficulty hash
3884 2010-12-16 22:49:06 <slush_cz1> sorry for my english
3885 2010-12-16 22:49:42 <zygf> I don't understand, is it a separate network that it has a different difficulty factor?
3886 2010-12-16 22:50:12 <tcatm> Yes, but a miner could have found multiple solutions and as it got a lower difficulty from the server it will only submit the one for that difficulty and not the one that would win the real block.
3887 2010-12-16 22:50:13 <slush_cz1> zygf: No, it is the same network, but miners think the network difficulty is much lower than it is
3888 2010-12-16 22:50:28 <nanotube> slush_cz1: could you explain, what data precisely are the miners hashing? are they hashing blocks which is using the /server's/ address as the base?
3889 2010-12-16 22:50:54 <slush_cz1> tcatm: Yes, but I'm asking - what should anybody do this?? Hiding hashes - lower reward!
3890 2010-12-16 22:51:27 <slush_cz1> nanotube: they obtain EXACTLY THE SAME output as from official getwork(), only with replaced 'target' with lower value
3891 2010-12-16 22:51:29 <tcatm> Some miners (like my private one) are programmed like that.
3892 2010-12-16 22:51:46 <[Noodles]> it's the same data every miner hashes, it's the same miners. you just connet the miner to a remote getwork-server, instead of your locfal one
3893 2010-12-16 22:52:12 <slush_cz1> But bitcoin itself work in this way, that hash source includes transaction for 50 BTC to client's wallet
3894 2010-12-16 22:52:24 maximi89 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3895 2010-12-16 22:52:57 <slush_cz1> Yes, whole infrastructure is the same, I just added accounting and checking hashes
3896 2010-12-16 22:52:57 <nanotube> [Noodles]: ah ok, i never used any of the remote miners. so part of the data that's sent with getwork is the hash of the 50btctransaction ?
3897 2010-12-16 22:53:10 <slush_cz1> Yes. exact;u
3898 2010-12-16 22:53:11 <zygf> what's the point of making clients think the difficulty is lower? to make them submit blocks just for the purpose of verifying their work or is there another effect?
3899 2010-12-16 22:53:12 <slush_cz1> exactly
3900 2010-12-16 22:53:34 <nanotube> so the miners don't own the key that is used for the 50btc, ok, that makes sense.
3901 2010-12-16 22:53:37 <slush_cz1> zygf: Exaclty, it is for checking proof of work
3902 2010-12-16 22:54:35 <nanotube> in that case - that's pretty ingenious. :) solves the "verification" problem, and also the reverse problem of clients verifying that server isn't cheating.
3903 2010-12-16 22:54:46 <slush_cz1> ;)
3904 2010-12-16 22:55:10 <nanotube> because each client should be able, in theory, to know whether a block is a 'real solve'... and if it doesn't get a share of the gen, it knows the server op stole the 50btc.
3905 2010-12-16 22:55:45 <slush_cz1> yes, miner can obtain official target and check, if server is not cheating
3906 2010-12-16 22:55:49 <nanotube> only problem is that clients can't know if the entire 50 btc is being distributed to the clients, or if some is being withheld. i guess trusting the pool op is still required.
3907 2010-12-16 22:56:39 <yebyen> that is the neatest picture i saw all day
3908 2010-12-16 22:56:42 <slush_cz1> Yes, central server still needs some reputation. People must believe that Im not adding shares for my workers manually
3909 2010-12-16 22:57:01 <kiba> 1666 posts
3910 2010-12-16 22:57:31 <yebyen> so is this a concept or code?
3911 2010-12-16 22:57:33 <yebyen> it sounds great
3912 2010-12-16 22:57:44 <slush_cz1> yebyen: http://mining.bitcoin.cz
3913 2010-12-16 22:57:51 <slush_cz1> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
3914 2010-12-16 22:57:53 <nanotube> slush_cz1: right... but other than that... really good work. :)
3915 2010-12-16 22:58:02 <slush_cz1> thanks :)
3916 2010-12-16 22:58:11 <[Noodles]> seems to work quite good so far, 8.9btc for ~100M
3917 2010-12-16 22:58:39 <[Noodles]> we'll see if slush pays us ^.^
3918 2010-12-16 22:58:46 <LobsterMan> slush_cz1 how often are coins usually paid out?
3919 2010-12-16 22:58:55 <LobsterMan> i am trying to look at this from a purely practical view
3920 2010-12-16 22:59:06 <LobsterMan> i get about 50btc/weekly from running my miners for myself only
3921 2010-12-16 22:59:12 <LobsterMan> weekly to 10 days
3922 2010-12-16 22:59:14 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 1487666
3923 2010-12-16 22:59:15 <slush_cz1> But personally I'm pretty excited from whole bitcoin world. I have own 5970, I'm pretty satisfied with bitcoin income and reputation is much more than few cheated bitcoins :-)
3924 2010-12-16 22:59:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1487666 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 9 hours, 49 minutes, and 32 seconds
3925 2010-12-16 22:59:25 <LobsterMan> would i likely come up anywhere close running the pooled mining?
3926 2010-12-16 22:59:36 <yebyen> slush_cz1: thanks for the link
3927 2010-12-16 22:59:37 <nanotube> slush_cz1: so your pool should be making about 100btc per day, at current difficulty?
3928 2010-12-16 22:59:43 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: Reward will be IN LONG TERM the same as when you mine alone
3929 2010-12-16 22:59:52 <LobsterMan> that's kind of what i figured
3930 2010-12-16 23:00:03 <[Noodles]> LobsterMan: depends on your threshold and contribution, at this rate, we should generate a few blocks a day
3931 2010-12-16 23:00:14 <LobsterMan> i think when the difficulty goes up a bit i will probably try using your pooled mining :)
3932 2010-12-16 23:00:15 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Yes, we found two blocks 15/12
3933 2010-12-16 23:00:33 <LobsterMan> what about so far for today, 12-16?
3934 2010-12-16 23:00:34 <nanotube> LobsterMan: well actually, no. with rising difficulty... you may not get a block at all in two weeks. while with a pool, you keep getting fractions of blocks
3935 2010-12-16 23:00:38 <slush_cz1> But mhash is still rising! I started exactly before 24 hours with 560 mhash
3936 2010-12-16 23:01:13 <LobsterMan> nanotube that's what im saying, when difficulty rises i think i will opt to use the pooled mining becuase it will take too long for me to generate with my measly 100mhash
3937 2010-12-16 23:01:14 <LobsterMan> lol
3938 2010-12-16 23:01:20 Toadyonps3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3939 2010-12-16 23:01:21 <nanotube> slush_cz1: do you distribute "every block", or wait until say, 10 blocks are generated? (to avoid sending tiny-fractions to people) ?
3940 2010-12-16 23:01:30 <nanotube> LobsterMan: right. :)
3941 2010-12-16 23:01:36 <slush_cz1> And frequency of payment - Account balance is checking every hour and rewards are paying immediately when there are funds.
3942 2010-12-16 23:01:56 <nanotube> slush_cz1: i suggest you pay out only once balance reaches > 0.01. otherwise, you have to pay a tx fee
3943 2010-12-16 23:01:57 <Dr_Pangloss> well this is weird
3944 2010-12-16 23:02:06 <slush_cz1> In practice, I'm waiting for first block right now. I want to run script manually to check if everything is ok
3945 2010-12-16 23:02:14 <slush_cz1> tested heavily on testnet, but real money is real money :)
3946 2010-12-16 23:02:17 <Dr_Pangloss> I was getting 150 mhash earlier today
3947 2010-12-16 23:02:23 <Dr_Pangloss> now I'm down to 70
3948 2010-12-16 23:02:28 <[Noodles]> Lobster: told you, i'm contributing ~100M to the pool now for ~20hrs or so and already got a "reward" 8.9coins, which has to mature before i get it though
3949 2010-12-16 23:02:43 <LobsterMan> hmm
3950 2010-12-16 23:02:56 <LobsterMan> [Noodles] i am interested to hear how many you receive over the course of a week or 2
3951 2010-12-16 23:03:39 <mndrix> ;;bc,calc 102000
3952 2010-12-16 23:03:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 102000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 5 days, 23 hours, 18 minutes, and 22 seconds
3953 2010-12-16 23:03:46 <mndrix> ;;bc,calc 340000
3954 2010-12-16 23:03:46 <[Noodles]> next week difficulty rises, but there might also be some more GPUs in the pool (i get a new card tomorrow, may add anotherone to the pool)
3955 2010-12-16 23:03:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 340000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 day, 18 hours, 59 minutes, and 30 seconds
3956 2010-12-16 23:04:00 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
3957 2010-12-16 23:04:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 97943 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 840 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 0 hours, 29 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14236.61416070
3958 2010-12-16 23:04:15 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Rewards are sending ASAP when there is balance on account and when reward > send treshold
3959 2010-12-16 23:04:46 <[Noodles]> but the hash-count is about the same as on local_config, so as long as slush wont rip us off, i'll keep swimming
3960 2010-12-16 23:05:39 <nanotube> slush_cz1: ah ok. also, you might want to post a link to your pool on this thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2027.msg30037#msg30037
3961 2010-12-16 23:06:54 <slush_cz1> Oh, well, competition is quite good idea. Btw I think everybody in this thread already read my Cooperative mining thread
3962 2010-12-16 23:07:12 <slush_cz1> Hwllo, LobsterMan, and thanks for signing up ;)
3963 2010-12-16 23:07:47 matsh has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3964 2010-12-16 23:07:49 <LobsterMan> ;]
3965 2010-12-16 23:07:59 <LobsterMan> is the wallet field just an address of mine?
3966 2010-12-16 23:08:04 <slush_cz1> yes
3967 2010-12-16 23:08:50 <LobsterMan> what is send threshold and reward?
3968 2010-12-16 23:09:02 <slush_cz1> reward is read only
3969 2010-12-16 23:09:07 <slush_cz1> it is your personal balance
3970 2010-12-16 23:09:19 <slush_cz1> I have to make it more clear, people already ask for the same...
3971 2010-12-16 23:09:32 <slush_cz1> threshold is minimum amount which you want to send to your wallet
3972 2010-12-16 23:09:38 <slush_cz1> to avoid sending 0.00001 btc
3973 2010-12-16 23:09:47 <LobsterMan> (btw it's spelled threshold not treshold :P )
3974 2010-12-16 23:10:08 <slush_cz1> well, sending amount is also rounding before sending to two decimal places. The rest after rounding remains in system
3975 2010-12-16 23:10:09 <LobsterMan> there is a typo on the site
3976 2010-12-16 23:10:17 <slush_cz1> So no nano-bitcoins are lost
3977 2010-12-16 23:10:25 <LobsterMan> so i guess i'll just leave it at 1.0 thenh
3978 2010-12-16 23:10:39 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: Thanks, I will fix that ;) I know, my english
3979 2010-12-16 23:10:45 <LobsterMan> ;P
3980 2010-12-16 23:10:57 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: I think 1.0 is OK
3981 2010-12-16 23:11:13 <LobsterMan> .01 is when you start to incur fees?
3982 2010-12-16 23:11:16 <LobsterMan> .01 or below?
3983 2010-12-16 23:11:49 <slush_cz1> I dont know
3984 2010-12-16 23:11:58 <nanotube> LobsterMan: currently, <0.01
3985 2010-12-16 23:12:00 <nanotube> slush_cz1: --^
3986 2010-12-16 23:12:04 <nanotube> you can see the ,,txfee page
3987 2010-12-16 23:12:05 <gribble> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=transaction_fee
3988 2010-12-16 23:12:10 <slush_cz1> I'm rounding that because lower amount is hidden in official client
3989 2010-12-16 23:12:32 <slush_cz1> I'm working with precision on 8 decimal place in whole system
3990 2010-12-16 23:12:46 <nanotube> cool, slush_cz1
3991 2010-12-16 23:13:01 <LobsterMan> slush_cz1 if you don't mine me asking, how old are you?
3992 2010-12-16 23:13:03 <nanotube> so if over time i accumulate a balance of 0.001 10 times, i'll still be able to get 0.01 btc?
3993 2010-12-16 23:13:04 <LobsterMan> mind*
3994 2010-12-16 23:13:21 <slush_cz1> why? :) 27
3995 2010-12-16 23:13:33 <slush_cz1> nanotube: yes
3996 2010-12-16 23:13:46 <LobsterMan> just wondering
3997 2010-12-16 23:14:35 <slush_cz1> I have absolutely no idea how old are those people around me :))
3998 2010-12-16 23:15:06 <LobsterMan> hehe
3999 2010-12-16 23:15:09 <LobsterMan> it seems most are mid 20's
4000 2010-12-16 23:15:58 <genjix> i am -4
4001 2010-12-16 23:15:59 <nanotube> i've changed the ,,pool factoid to point to your pool, slush_cz1 . since doublec's pool is dead due to vps constraints.
4002 2010-12-16 23:16:00 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
4003 2010-12-16 23:16:28 <slush_cz1> nanotube: cooool :-D
4004 2010-12-16 23:16:36 <slush_cz1> pool
4005 2010-12-16 23:16:48 <slush_cz1> how it works?
4006 2010-12-16 23:16:51 <nanotube> ;;pool
4007 2010-12-16 23:16:52 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
4008 2010-12-16 23:16:59 <nanotube> or if in-line, double-comma, like ,,pool
4009 2010-12-16 23:16:59 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
4010 2010-12-16 23:17:09 <slush_cz1> thanks
4011 2010-12-16 23:17:49 <nanotube> np - and thank you for making such a nice pool. :)
4012 2010-12-16 23:17:58 <LobsterMan> nanotube it should pull the aggregate hash rate from the stats page and print that out too :P
4013 2010-12-16 23:18:08 <slush_cz1> I'm still working on. I have tons of optimizations and tools in mind
4014 2010-12-16 23:18:43 asdf30 has joined
4015 2010-12-16 23:18:49 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: I can make some json stats export, if interested
4016 2010-12-16 23:19:07 <LobsterMan> it may be worth while, i don't have a bot but it would probably help people like nanotube who do have bots ;)
4017 2010-12-16 23:19:09 <nanotube> slush_cz1: sure, some json would be nice - then gribble can pull that off the site
4018 2010-12-16 23:21:37 <da2ce7> G'Morning bitcoiners
4019 2010-12-16 23:21:40 <da2ce7> :)
4020 2010-12-16 23:21:42 <LobsterMan> ahoy
4021 2010-12-16 23:21:48 <LobsterMan> $time == 18:20:07
4022 2010-12-16 23:21:49 <LobsterMan> not morning here
4023 2010-12-16 23:21:54 <LobsterMan> :P
4024 2010-12-16 23:22:02 <da2ce7> 10:30 here.
4025 2010-12-16 23:22:08 <slush_cz1> there is 0:30
4026 2010-12-16 23:22:11 <slush_cz1> here..
4027 2010-12-16 23:22:17 <LobsterMan> where do you live da2ce7? :O
4028 2010-12-16 23:22:18 <slush_cz1> should go to bed :-/
4029 2010-12-16 23:22:25 <LobsterMan> 1230 is early slush_cz1 :P
4030 2010-12-16 23:22:26 <da2ce7> Melbourne, Aus
4031 2010-12-16 23:22:39 <LobsterMan> 5am is when it's time to sleep
4032 2010-12-16 23:22:40 <LobsterMan> hehehe
4033 2010-12-16 23:23:47 <da2ce7> well anyway I think I have come up with a method of makeing CA's largely irrelevant: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1790.msg30781#msg30781 id be good to get some comments.
4034 2010-12-16 23:24:31 asdf58 has joined
4035 2010-12-16 23:25:02 asdf30 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4036 2010-12-16 23:26:13 <slush_cz1> LobsterMan: Don't tell me. Yesterday I went to bed at 5.30, because starting mining server
4037 2010-12-16 23:26:43 <yebyen> da2ce7: neat idea, but is bitdns real already?
4038 2010-12-16 23:26:50 <slush_cz1> I like working at night, but not my boss
4039 2010-12-16 23:26:55 <LobsterMan> haha
4040 2010-12-16 23:26:56 <kiba> we're still working in the proposal stage
4041 2010-12-16 23:27:06 <kiba> creating the longest thread on the forum
4042 2010-12-16 23:27:17 <LobsterMan> i don't really get any useful work done before 10pm
4043 2010-12-16 23:28:04 <kiba> wee, my saving is now worth 62.5 dollars!
4044 2010-12-16 23:28:07 <yebyen> i love that i have a bank account with 1.0 in it
4045 2010-12-16 23:28:16 <yebyen> and a savings account attached with 3.01
4046 2010-12-16 23:28:28 <yebyen> that bank should know that i don't love them
4047 2010-12-16 23:28:46 <yebyen> and they've made me very unhappy with their $34 overdraft fee
4048 2010-12-16 23:29:24 <LobsterMan> fuck banks
4049 2010-12-16 23:29:26 <LobsterMan> thieving bastards
4050 2010-12-16 23:29:28 <LobsterMan> all of them
4051 2010-12-16 23:29:29 <LobsterMan> :|
4052 2010-12-16 23:29:41 <LobsterMan> someone needs to make a bitcoin bank XD
4053 2010-12-16 23:29:48 <da2ce7> BitDNS is a bit of a pie-in-the-sky name. I chose wuse it also because it is short and has a nice ring to it.
4054 2010-12-16 23:29:52 <da2ce7> *use
4055 2010-12-16 23:30:23 <kiba> a bitcoin suprise attack!
4056 2010-12-16 23:30:42 <da2ce7> for my full proposal you can read: http://domainchain.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitname
4057 2010-12-16 23:30:59 <kiba> power...melting away!
4058 2010-12-16 23:31:09 <da2ce7> a summary is on this post: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1790.msg30279#msg30279
4059 2010-12-16 23:31:28 <da2ce7> kiba, lol.
4060 2010-12-16 23:31:36 <yebyen> da2ce7: it's very clear what the concept is, i have run bind servers before and i know about serial numbers, so when i read the first paragraph, i knew what you wanted
4061 2010-12-16 23:31:49 <yebyen> the name is awesome
4062 2010-12-16 23:32:06 <kiba> to the...Khan academy!
4063 2010-12-16 23:32:15 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Json export will be on url http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/json/
4064 2010-12-16 23:32:15 <slush_cz1> Format is
4065 2010-12-16 23:32:15 <slush_cz1> {"hashes_ps": 839926, "shares": 2, "round_started": "2010-12-16 21:38:42"}
4066 2010-12-16 23:32:16 <slush_cz1> it will be online soon (tomorrow)? I don't want to restart server because of that, will some with more changes
4067 2010-12-16 23:32:18 <kiba> we need a hacker academy!
4068 2010-12-16 23:32:47 <LobsterMan> Unhandled Exception
4069 2010-12-16 23:32:48 <LobsterMan> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
4070 2010-12-16 23:32:48 <LobsterMan> XD
4071 2010-12-16 23:33:03 <slush_cz1> it is ok, missing 404 ;)
4072 2010-12-16 23:34:00 asdf58 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4073 2010-12-16 23:35:36 <nanotube> slush_cz1: sounds good - no hurry. :)
4074 2010-12-16 23:35:57 andrew12 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4075 2010-12-16 23:36:47 <slush_cz1> wow, my english is bad, but this sentence is really weird 'will some with more changes'
4076 2010-12-16 23:37:02 <slush_cz1> will Come with more changes, ahaaaa
4077 2010-12-16 23:37:10 <LobsterMan> s is kind of close to c.......
4078 2010-12-16 23:37:23 <slush_cz1> funny that I don't understand myself :D
4079 2010-12-16 23:37:37 <nanotube> yebyen: see also http://privwiki.dreamhosters.com/wiki/Bitcoin_DNS_System_Proposal (which, unlike da2ce7's proposal, doesn't require any changes to the bitcoin blockchain (burning transactions?) )
4080 2010-12-16 23:37:41 asdf30 has joined
4081 2010-12-16 23:38:20 devon_hillard_ has joined
4082 2010-12-16 23:38:49 <yebyen> thanks
4083 2010-12-16 23:41:23 andrew12 has joined
4084 2010-12-16 23:42:35 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4085 2010-12-16 23:42:48 <nanotube> yebyen: your thoughts would be appreciated - especially as someone who's familiar with dns and bind.
4086 2010-12-16 23:43:34 <slush_cz1> oh, 1.1 mhash/s missing to 1500 O:-)
4087 2010-12-16 23:43:47 <yebyen> this paper looks very technical and i'm not sure what i can contribute
4088 2010-12-16 23:43:50 <yebyen> but i'll read it
4089 2010-12-16 23:44:03 <yebyen> i have delicious feeds with >6000 bookmarks
4090 2010-12-16 23:44:19 <yebyen> i would like to put that in a tube with dollars flowing through
4091 2010-12-16 23:44:20 <nanotube> heh
4092 2010-12-16 23:44:33 <yebyen> that you can reach in and try to catch something
4093 2010-12-16 23:45:14 <yebyen> the serial numbers, i am not so interested in
4094 2010-12-16 23:45:26 <yebyen> but from a technical perspective i can understand their necessity
4095 2010-12-16 23:45:37 <altamic> yeyben: curl https://username:password@api.del.icio.us/v1/posts/all > bookmarks.xml
4096 2010-12-16 23:46:40 <yebyen> so this is actually a scheme to generate money, too
4097 2010-12-16 23:46:47 <yebyen> and charge for registrations
4098 2010-12-16 23:47:06 <yebyen> altamic: i have worse problems than that one
4099 2010-12-16 23:47:28 <yebyen> i also use semanticscuttle when i have to work behind a firewall
4100 2010-12-16 23:47:41 <yebyen> because someone is not interested in allowing me to post my notes somewhere I might be able to find them later
4101 2010-12-16 23:48:01 <yebyen> and when you post on semanticscuttle, which is exactly like delicious interface
4102 2010-12-16 23:48:06 <yebyen> reposts bump
4103 2010-12-16 23:48:29 <yebyen> that is a feature, unfortunately
4104 2010-12-16 23:48:33 <yebyen> and yahoo hasn't got it :(
4105 2010-12-16 23:50:14 <yebyen> isn't that terrible? i don't have vpn access to my office :x
4106 2010-12-16 23:50:32 <yebyen> seems like i should
4107 2010-12-16 23:51:11 <yebyen> http://delicious.com/yebyen
4108 2010-12-16 23:52:21 <yebyen> it's more fun to read if you ?setcount=100
4109 2010-12-16 23:53:20 <altamic> yeyben: are you aware that delicious will be closed in a while?
4110 2010-12-16 23:53:23 <da2ce7> nanotube, my proposal would 'work' without any of the changes to the bitcoin protocol. Just make a 3rd party that issues transaction fees over time. I thought at the minor enhancements to the bitcoin protocol were non-threatening and easy to understand, would make my BitDNS idea much more elegant and resistant to attack.
4111 2010-12-16 23:53:54 <yebyen> altamic: how long?
4112 2010-12-16 23:54:02 <yebyen> altamic: that would be devastating if no one had warned me
4113 2010-12-16 23:54:02 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4114 2010-12-16 23:54:08 <mndrix> whoever made the MtGox market API, thank you
4115 2010-12-16 23:54:24 <altamic> http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/16/is-yahoo-shutting-down-del-icio-us/
4116 2010-12-16 23:54:58 <nanotube> da2ce7: i'll have to read it in more detail... i have only skimmed it briefly. does it offer anything that our earlier proposal doesn't?
4117 2010-12-16 23:55:03 andrew12 has quit ()
4118 2010-12-16 23:55:33 <yebyen> altamic: well, add that to another of the list of 10000+ entries that I absolutely must process soon...
4119 2010-12-16 23:55:58 <altamic> this is exacty what my one liner do
4120 2010-12-16 23:56:19 <yebyen> it's not processed just because i have it in xml
4121 2010-12-16 23:56:22 <yebyen> sure, it's backed up
4122 2010-12-16 23:56:36 <yebyen> i could even copy it into my semantic scuttle
4123 2010-12-16 23:56:41 <altamic> I bet that you work for academy
4124 2010-12-16 23:56:58 <yebyen> but then i ought to abandon my delicious website based on a leaked two-day old article
4125 2010-12-16 23:57:05 <yebyen> really
4126 2010-12-16 23:57:07 devon_hillard_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
4127 2010-12-16 23:57:12 <yebyen> because it's not practical to maintain it in two places :)
4128 2010-12-16 23:57:26 <yebyen> no, i have just graduated CS 4 months ago
4129 2010-12-16 23:57:31 <yebyen> though
4130 2010-12-16 23:58:29 <yebyen> and i love compilers
4131 2010-12-16 23:58:46 <yebyen> more than even some people that i like a lot
4132 2010-12-16 23:58:48 <altamic> and parsers?
4133 2010-12-16 23:58:50 <Dr_Pangloss> +6
4134 2010-12-16 23:58:55 <Dr_Pangloss> oops
4135 2010-12-16 23:58:56 <yebyen> yes, and parsers too
4136 2010-12-16 23:58:58 <Dr_Pangloss> fecking cat
4137 2010-12-16 23:59:35 <altamic> enjoy this one https://gist.github.com/744110