1 2010-12-20 00:00:02 <jgarzik> satoshi is very anti-alt-client, which is disappointing.
   2 2010-12-20 00:01:05 <TD> oh, he is?
   3 2010-12-20 00:01:12 <TD> what's the reason for that?
   4 2010-12-20 00:01:42 <bencoder> if any security problems are found, all the programmers of alternative clients will have to dev fixes as well as the official client
   5 2010-12-20 00:01:51 <TD> i see
   6 2010-12-20 00:01:54 <bencoder> i think is the reason, essentially
   7 2010-12-20 00:02:07 <TD> presumably he means logical security rather than things like buffer overflows
   8 2010-12-20 00:02:13 <bencoder> yeah
   9 2010-12-20 00:02:47 <TD> btw does anyone know how to interpret the output of db_dump on wallet.dat? i basically just want to extract the EC keys
  10 2010-12-20 00:02:56 <TD> but all keys and values are hashes :)
  11 2010-12-20 00:03:21 eureka^ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  12 2010-12-20 00:03:39 <TD> bencoder: well fortunately the protocol and code are painful enough to work with that i doubt we'll see fully blown alternative clients anytime soon ..... i'm aiming only for the minimum necessary to send/receive transactions, not take part in relaying or block generation
  13 2010-12-20 00:03:58 joe_1 has joined
  14 2010-12-20 00:04:20 <bencoder> yeah I don't think it's a valid argument personally
  15 2010-12-20 00:04:28 eureka^ has joined
  16 2010-12-20 00:04:46 <TD> he's conservative. that's not a bad thing in the guy who runs your currency system :)
  17 2010-12-20 00:04:57 <bencoder> hehe
  18 2010-12-20 00:05:36 <slush_cz> TD: There will don't be need for alternative _core_  when official client will be modular enough.
  19 2010-12-20 00:06:00 <slush_cz> TD: I can imagine one core and clients, which are build on it
  20 2010-12-20 00:06:14 ColonelPanic1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  21 2010-12-20 00:06:27 <TD> i think there will still be alternative core implementations. besides, it's healthy to have multiple interoperable implementations. it's a sign of maturity and acceptable in a protocol
  22 2010-12-20 00:07:29 <TD> but if you want a practical reason, i'm working on this java version for an android client. i looked at using JNI to the official code, but the fact that it just memcpys onto the wire makes that difficult ..... ARM is not guaranteed to be little endian
  23 2010-12-20 00:07:47 <TD> in fact it's basically sure to not be
  24 2010-12-20 00:07:59 <TD> it'd mean big changes to satoshis code
  25 2010-12-20 00:08:07 <TD> almost easier to just reimplement
  26 2010-12-20 00:08:39 ColonelPanic1 has joined
  27 2010-12-20 00:09:36 <nanotube> heh, i say, the more the merrier, as far as clients are concerned. :)
  28 2010-12-20 00:12:23 <MT`AwAy> wow, I was HL but my backlog doesn't show why
  29 2010-12-20 00:12:24 <davout> same goes for women :)
  30 2010-12-20 00:15:08 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: hl?
  31 2010-12-20 00:15:29 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: yep, "highlighted", when someone writes my name in a sentense
  32 2010-12-20 00:15:41 <nanotube> aaah
  33 2010-12-20 00:15:48 <nanotube> heh.
  34 2010-12-20 00:16:16 <nanotube> well, i have a plugin on xchat that stuffs all highlights into a separate tab. so i don't miss them. :)
  35 2010-12-20 00:16:16 <MT`AwAy> ok, was Kiba
  36 2010-12-20 00:16:45 <MT`AwAy> and you on bitcoin-otc, telling someone to suggest something to me :D
  37 2010-12-20 00:17:29 <nanotube> <RichardG> I wish WikiBot could check tor nodes also...
  38 2010-12-20 00:17:29 <nanotube> <nanotube> hmm well suggest it to MT`AwAy :)
  39 2010-12-20 00:17:34 <nanotube> that. :)
  40 2010-12-20 00:18:59 <MT`AwAy> that's planned, it's just that I have to install a tor node first, and see how I can connect through it without too much troubles
  41 2010-12-20 00:20:14 <MT`AwAy> (ie. I need to find out how I ask a socks server to connect to a given host)
  42 2010-12-20 00:22:18 <MT`AwAy> http://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_total-day.png <- I'm *trying* to plot the nodes on the bitcoin network (I think it'll look better on a monthly graph)
  43 2010-12-20 00:28:33 <MT`AwAy> theymos: for pages like "Anonymity" where you were and are still the only contributor, I'm not sure you need {{fromold}} :p (you can probably safely claim your own work :p )
  44 2010-12-20 00:28:48 * MT`AwAy is patrolling all the edits
  45 2010-12-20 00:31:14 larsig has joined
  46 2010-12-20 00:31:57 <da2ce7> cool sent 50BTC to the wiki reward address :D
  47 2010-12-20 00:32:48 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: cool :)
  48 2010-12-20 00:33:31 <larsig> does the svn code run now?
  49 2010-12-20 00:35:17 <da2ce7> I use winrar to make a encripted archive of my wallet, then email myself the archive... Is this a resonble way to secure your wallet... I expect to, I think that I'll add it to the wiki.
  50 2010-12-20 00:37:28 sgtstein has joined
  51 2010-12-20 00:37:29 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: as long as your password is complex enough
  52 2010-12-20 00:37:57 <da2ce7> how long+complex would be required to make it resonably secure?
  53 2010-12-20 00:37:59 <da2ce7> I have just tried to edit my user page... however I cannot find the edit button?  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Da2ce7
  54 2010-12-20 00:39:20 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: at least 8 random lowercase/uppercase characters + digits
  55 2010-12-20 00:39:29 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: did you confirm your email ?
  56 2010-12-20 00:40:11 <da2ce7> nope :P
  57 2010-12-20 00:40:16 <da2ce7> all working
  58 2010-12-20 00:40:43 enoxice has quit (Quit: leaving)
  59 2010-12-20 00:40:44 <da2ce7> maybe it should come up with a warning on you user page "email not verfied"
  60 2010-12-20 00:41:20 <MT`AwAy> or maybe I could just drop the email verification requirement for edits, and add a captcha until the email is verified
  61 2010-12-20 00:41:39 <da2ce7> yeah that would be a good way.
  62 2010-12-20 00:42:02 <utsl> hmm, assuming that a hd5970 can test passwords at the same rate as sha-256 rounds,
  63 2010-12-20 00:42:11 <MT`AwAy> anyway I'm happy to see so many edits :D
  64 2010-12-20 00:42:15 <utsl> ie testing the 128-bit aes is right,
  65 2010-12-20 00:42:33 <utsl> then 8 characters of [a-zA-Z0-9] should give you 4 days against one of those cards
  66 2010-12-20 00:42:43 <utsl> I'd use PGP :)
  67 2010-12-20 00:42:58 <da2ce7> hmm, then maybe 16 characters...
  68 2010-12-20 00:43:00 <da2ce7> :P
  69 2010-12-20 00:43:10 <omglolbbq> Is something wrong with the pool? seems it doesn't send the coins reward for a day now
  70 2010-12-20 00:43:25 <utsl> 12 should be enough
  71 2010-12-20 00:43:50 lfm has joined
  72 2010-12-20 00:44:01 <da2ce7> ok, I'll put that up on the wiki.
  73 2010-12-20 00:45:09 <MT`AwAy> utsl: back in my time in 1991, 8 was uncrackable
  74 2010-12-20 00:46:00 <utsl> my passwords are generally even more gibberishy than typical memory-friendly generators give you
  75 2010-12-20 00:46:20 <utsl> so, in 2000, the windows guy set a program cracking everyone's passwords
  76 2010-12-20 00:46:36 <utsl> he told me that mine was the only one he didn't crack, said he only got one letter
  77 2010-12-20 00:46:37 <DerrikeG> And by darn he done it!
  78 2010-12-20 00:46:47 <slush_cz> !pool
  79 2010-12-20 00:46:52 <utsl> that was 8 characters of [!-~]
  80 2010-12-20 00:47:16 <slush_cz> !pool
  81 2010-12-20 00:47:22 <slush_cz> nothing
  82 2010-12-20 00:47:27 <omglolbbq> slush_cz, did something change with the reward system?
  83 2010-12-20 00:47:29 <DerrikeG> How do you even determine how much of a password you got? I think he was bluffing.
  84 2010-12-20 00:47:38 <MT`AwAy> utsl: my website allows input of password in Japanese :p
  85 2010-12-20 00:47:42 <utsl> he asked me if the last letter was i
  86 2010-12-20 00:48:01 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: If you mean whats up new accounting system, so im working on
  87 2010-12-20 00:48:23 <MT`AwAy> DerrikeG: for windows 2000, password is stored as 2 hashes of up to 8 password chars (the password can be up to 16 characters, no mroe)
  88 2010-12-20 00:48:32 <omglolbbq> slush_cz, so it's normal my reward is above the threshold and not being sent to my account?
  89 2010-12-20 00:48:54 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: Yes, it is. See forum what's the problem.
  90 2010-12-20 00:49:11 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: No bitcoin lost, I'm working on upgrade
  91 2010-12-20 00:49:24 <lfm> omglolbbq: ya, it changed slush keeps it all now
  92 2010-12-20 00:49:26 <omglolbbq> ok i'll read up on the forum just got home :)
  93 2010-12-20 00:50:21 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  94 2010-12-20 00:50:27 <DerrikeG> I stopped generating for a while because my miner made it too difficult to watch a flash video. :V
  95 2010-12-20 00:50:36 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
  96 2010-12-20 00:55:30 <da2ce7> done! https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet
  97 2010-12-20 00:55:38 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Try to play with miner parameters.
  98 2010-12-20 00:55:57 <Kiba> done what, da2ce7 ?
  99 2010-12-20 00:55:57 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Depends on your miner, but I solved these problems almost everytime.
 100 2010-12-20 00:57:38 int0x27h has joined
 101 2010-12-20 00:57:46 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: and already patrolled
 102 2010-12-20 00:57:46 <MT`AwAy> :p
 103 2010-12-20 00:58:10 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: I'm still tinkering with CPU miner. I'm going to try freeing up a core and see where that gets me
 104 2010-12-20 00:58:22 <da2ce7> ah, just added some general backup sugestions.
 105 2010-12-20 01:00:58 <da2ce7> Mt'Away, maybe we should put the current reward pool on the main page.
 106 2010-12-20 01:01:05 <Kiba> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Special:LonelyPages
 107 2010-12-20 01:01:16 <Kiba> we got lot of orphaned pages
 108 2010-12-20 01:01:29 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: category parents
 109 2010-12-20 01:01:41 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: would have to update it from times to times :p
 110 2010-12-20 01:01:55 <Kiba> we still don't have...
 111 2010-12-20 01:02:15 <Kiba> a guideline on determine which bitcoiners is influential enough to include in the bitcoin wiki
 112 2010-12-20 01:02:18 <da2ce7> no script to automaticaly suck it from blockexplorer?
 113 2010-12-20 01:02:49 <joe_1> we can't make the same mistake as wikipedia and be deletionists.
 114 2010-12-20 01:03:12 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: would be a good idea to ask that to be included in /q
 115 2010-12-20 01:03:22 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: like "get how many coins were received by address X"
 116 2010-12-20 01:03:55 <Kiba> joe_1: meh.
 117 2010-12-20 01:04:06 <Kiba> some people logged in and post 10 posts and never to be heard from again
 118 2010-12-20 01:04:06 <slush_cz> !newpool
 119 2010-12-20 01:04:35 <Kiba> I propose at least 3 articles within bitcoin wiki mentioned a bitcoiner is sufficent enough for inclusion
 120 2010-12-20 01:04:40 <ColonelPanic1> thanks to whoever contributed to the "securing your wallet" page
 121 2010-12-20 01:05:04 <DerrikeG> !swimmingpool
 122 2010-12-20 01:05:10 <ColonelPanic1> lack of wallet encryption is a huge problem with bitcoin
 123 2010-12-20 01:05:22 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: sounds reasonnable
 124 2010-12-20 01:05:27 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: :)) this is bot command, but he is probably offline now
 125 2010-12-20 01:05:43 <ColonelPanic1> its like keeping your physical wallet on the outside of your pants
 126 2010-12-20 01:05:53 <DerrikeG> You mean you don't do that?
 127 2010-12-20 01:05:57 <ColonelPanic1> lol
 128 2010-12-20 01:06:08 <ColonelPanic1> I secure everything
 129 2010-12-20 01:06:18 <DerrikeG> What's the computer equivalent of chaining your wallet to yourself?
 130 2010-12-20 01:06:27 <Kiba> hmm
 131 2010-12-20 01:06:29 <MT`AwAy> DerrikeG: encryption, I guess
 132 2010-12-20 01:06:30 <ColonelPanic1> truecrypt
 133 2010-12-20 01:06:30 <MT`AwAy> XD
 134 2010-12-20 01:06:34 <Kiba> I would need to memorize a long password
 135 2010-12-20 01:06:39 <ColonelPanic1> yeah
 136 2010-12-20 01:06:46 <ColonelPanic1> or use biometric
 137 2010-12-20 01:06:49 <Kiba> gottach type that at least ten time
 138 2010-12-20 01:07:58 <da2ce7> or write down the password and keep it on paper in your real wallet.
 139 2010-12-20 01:08:02 <da2ce7> like I do.
 140 2010-12-20 01:08:04 <da2ce7> :P
 141 2010-12-20 01:08:05 <Kiba> who operates the bitcoin facuet?
 142 2010-12-20 01:08:06 <nanotube> slush_cz: well if your concise json output is ready, i can put it into gribble
 143 2010-12-20 01:08:11 <nanotube> Kiba: gavin
 144 2010-12-20 01:08:18 <lfm> DerrikeG: maybe like a one time code use dongle
 145 2010-12-20 01:08:38 helss has joined
 146 2010-12-20 01:10:22 <da2ce7> for my low-security password I just use a notepad next to my desk. :P it seems to work good enough, If sombody can get close enough to my computer to install a keylogger, then they might as well have the password to my online crap.
 147 2010-12-20 01:10:42 <da2ce7> *passwords
 148 2010-12-20 01:12:13 <DerrikeG> I keep my passwords encrypted on a detachable drive.
 149 2010-12-20 01:12:35 <slush_cz> nanotube: ten minutes sir, ten minutes
 150 2010-12-20 01:13:20 omglolbbq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 151 2010-12-20 01:14:00 <[Noodles]> yay! another block brought to you by the pool
 152 2010-12-20 01:14:36 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: it looks it really works :-D
 153 2010-12-20 01:14:55 <[Noodles]> seems so at least
 154 2010-12-20 01:15:38 <da2ce7> yeah, it is working well!  so far i have 40 coins in my ballance at bitcoin.cz
 155 2010-12-20 01:15:58 BoBeR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 156 2010-12-20 01:16:54 <[Noodles]> ~22btc on balance here and another ~22btc already received
 157 2010-12-20 01:17:47 <da2ce7> yeah I've set it to send coins to me once it gets up to 100BTC
 158 2010-12-20 01:18:50 <[Noodles]> i also set it to 100 today
 159 2010-12-20 01:19:58 <DerrikeG> minerd3.0 results: c: 680, 4way: 1536, via: Doesn't work for me -- just exits, cryptopp: 580, crypptop_asm32: 860
 160 2010-12-20 01:21:57 <[Noodles]> it's 0.3, works stable for me, only using 4way anyway, been on a few hours now on 2of3 cores, running stable so far
 161 2010-12-20 01:22:53 <slush_cz> guys, new accounting is ready!
 162 2010-12-20 01:23:01 <slush_cz> all tests passed
 163 2010-12-20 01:23:40 <slush_cz> I have to stop service for a time. Yes, I'm going to fix 'treshold' issue :)
 164 2010-12-20 01:26:05 <MT`AwAy> theymos: great ;)
 165 2010-12-20 01:26:07 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 166 2010-12-20 01:26:12 <da2ce7> slush_cz, Great!
 167 2010-12-20 01:27:00 TD has joined
 168 2010-12-20 01:27:15 <theymos> The "transactions" article was written entirely by me except for one [[link]]. What should I do about that?
 169 2010-12-20 01:27:43 <da2ce7> theymos, revert it to when it didn't have the link
 170 2010-12-20 01:28:14 <da2ce7> then add all your changes again... if the link is inportant then the other can place it back
 171 2010-12-20 01:28:41 <MT`AwAy> or just remove the link when removing fromold, then re-add the link mentionning the original contributor in the log message
 172 2010-12-20 01:28:48 helss has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 173 2010-12-20 01:30:30 Fee has joined
 174 2010-12-20 01:30:34 <theymos> OK. I re-added it with his name in the summary.
 175 2010-12-20 01:30:36 omglolbbq has joined
 176 2010-12-20 01:31:35 epicurus has joined
 177 2010-12-20 01:32:03 <MT`AwAy> sounds like the most appropriate for everyone ;)
 178 2010-12-20 01:35:33 Fee has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 179 2010-12-20 01:40:04 <MT`AwAy> Imagine the feeling: you find out that the comic book author of the comics you were reading when you were little also wrote porn comics with the same style...
 180 2010-12-20 01:44:44 <Kiba> I like hentai
 181 2010-12-20 01:44:57 <Kiba> like Air Gear's author?
 182 2010-12-20 01:45:00 <DerrikeG> You don't say.
 183 2010-12-20 01:45:19 <MT`AwAy> xD
 184 2010-12-20 01:45:30 <Kiba> lemonade with a bit of saltness is AWESOME
 185 2010-12-20 01:46:01 <Kiba> I wonder how hentai artists manage to complete their work?
 186 2010-12-20 01:46:33 <Kiba> do they have a zen like approach to drawing hentai?
 187 2010-12-20 01:47:20 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: want me to go & ask? :D
 188 2010-12-20 01:47:29 <DerrikeG> They apply the same formulaic setup in a different scenario.
 189 2010-12-20 01:49:04 <MT`AwAy> I'm not going to do meetups alone, but I know I won't be alone in march 2011 in Tokyo :D
 190 2010-12-20 01:49:10 <MT`AwAy> ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin:Tokyo_Meetup )
 191 2010-12-20 01:50:05 <T_X> what's the current total hash/s rate of the network?
 192 2010-12-20 01:50:18 <T_X> I could probably calculate that from the difficulty, right?
 193 2010-12-20 01:50:34 <xelister> Kiba: their order beer&bitches
 194 2010-12-20 01:50:41 <MT`AwAy> T_X: calculate that from difficulty & delay between blocks
 195 2010-12-20 01:51:17 <da2ce7> T_X, we should add that to gribble.
 196 2010-12-20 01:51:18 <Kiba> there must be some Japanese hackers who use bitcoin?
 197 2010-12-20 01:51:27 <theymos> T_X: Divide http://blockexplorer.com/q/hashestowin by http://blockexplorer.com/q/interval
 198 2010-12-20 01:51:32 <Kiba> there are some who are on Twitter that tweeted bitcoin before
 199 2010-12-20 01:51:35 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: not much according to my map
 200 2010-12-20 01:51:36 <Kiba> maybe you could ask them
 201 2010-12-20 01:51:44 <T_X> da2ce7: aggreed :)
 202 2010-12-20 01:51:50 <epicurus> is there a general bitcoin channel on freenode?
 203 2010-12-20 01:52:00 <Kiba> THIS is the general bitcoin channel on freenode
 204 2010-12-20 01:52:01 <xelister> epicurus: yes, this is the current one
 205 2010-12-20 01:52:06 <MT`AwAy> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml
 206 2010-12-20 01:52:24 <doublec> some discussion goes on in #bitcoin-discussion
 207 2010-12-20 01:52:30 <epicurus> ok then, here's my question
 208 2010-12-20 01:53:06 Juan has joined
 209 2010-12-20 01:53:56 <epicurus> why is the creation of bitcoins limited to those who have access to the cpu/network resources to do it
 210 2010-12-20 01:54:45 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: we had to limit bitcoin generation to something, network is required anyway (you don't do p2p with interconnecting the peers), cpu was chosen as it is difficult to fake
 211 2010-12-20 01:54:48 <theymos> Why is mining of gold limited to the people who have the resources to do it?
 212 2010-12-20 01:54:56 <Kiba> to prevent hyperinflation
 213 2010-12-20 01:55:04 anarchyx has joined
 214 2010-12-20 01:55:05 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, we need to get a favicon.ico and favicon.png for the wiki
 215 2010-12-20 01:55:07 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
 216 2010-12-20 01:55:10 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98475 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 308 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 19 hours, 54 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14323.64425857
 217 2010-12-20 01:55:14 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: url ?
 218 2010-12-20 01:55:26 <epicurus> theymos,  i don't think it should be, and i don't believe gold is the answer to anything
 219 2010-12-20 01:55:28 <MT`AwAy> (if you have one already)
 220 2010-12-20 01:55:34 <da2ce7> um I havn't made one yet, I make one now
 221 2010-12-20 01:55:36 <MT`AwAy> (we could "steal" the one from bitcoin.org)
 222 2010-12-20 01:55:39 <MT`AwAy> ok
 223 2010-12-20 01:55:56 <MT`AwAy> I've got the tools to convert ico to png, however png to ico will probably not put the right formats in the icon :p
 224 2010-12-20 01:56:15 noagendamarket has joined
 225 2010-12-20 01:56:24 <T_X> theymos: thx for the links
 226 2010-12-20 01:56:37 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
 227 2010-12-20 01:56:37 noagendamarket has joined
 228 2010-12-20 01:57:20 <epicurus> MT i understand the need to limit creation somehow, but i'm not sure why people with cpu power to burn should be having a practical monopoly on bitcoin creation
 229 2010-12-20 01:57:40 <epicurus> is this a technocracy?
 230 2010-12-20 01:57:42 <Kiba> how would you decide who get money?
 231 2010-12-20 01:57:44 <Kiba> epicurus: no.
 232 2010-12-20 01:57:51 <epicurus> it seems like one
 233 2010-12-20 01:57:55 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: they invested a *lot* of money to have the cpu power they use
 234 2010-12-20 01:57:59 <Kiba> it's an economic one
 235 2010-12-20 01:58:22 <Kiba> the developers don't lord over anyone
 236 2010-12-20 01:58:27 <epicurus> MT so again those who own the means of production hold all power
 237 2010-12-20 01:58:28 <Kiba> CPU miners compete with each other
 238 2010-12-20 01:58:48 <Kiba> epicurus: wrong
 239 2010-12-20 01:59:14 <MT`AwAy> they hold money they then sell to others, but they have no particular power
 240 2010-12-20 01:59:21 <epicurus> MT what about a botnet? should that person be rewarded with bitcoins?
 241 2010-12-20 01:59:33 <epicurus> the power to create money is a power
 242 2010-12-20 01:59:40 <Kiba> they contribute to the strength of network, epicurus
 243 2010-12-20 01:59:55 <Kiba> if we don't incentivize mining, who will? how will the network oeprate?
 244 2010-12-20 02:00:08 <epicurus> contributing to the strength of a network is no justification for the network
 245 2010-12-20 02:00:15 <Kiba> this is nonsense.
 246 2010-12-20 02:00:22 <Kiba> you are free to accept bitcoin or walk away
 247 2010-12-20 02:00:28 <Kiba> fork the network and try to compete wtih us
 248 2010-12-20 02:00:34 <epicurus> Kiba,  well, thats a good question but you could add something to it
 249 2010-12-20 02:00:36 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: it should be seen the same as mining gold. Yes, people did use slaves in gold mines to bring in more gold too, and they got their gold, the goal is to have a big enough network for this kind of stuff to not have any impact
 250 2010-12-20 02:00:37 <Kiba> this is 100% voluntary
 251 2010-12-20 02:00:55 <epicurus> Kiba,  oh i see, you reject any questions or criticism
 252 2010-12-20 02:01:02 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|lol
 253 2010-12-20 02:01:05 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: if you find a better way to decide "who gets the coins", we'd love to hear about it
 254 2010-12-20 02:01:09 <Kiba> no, I accept criticsms and questions...
 255 2010-12-20 02:01:20 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|epicurus : or maybe your criticism is pretty weak...
 256 2010-12-20 02:01:24 <Kiba> but you're mistaken as to how power is distributed
 257 2010-12-20 02:01:36 <Kiba> everyone is free to accept or reject bitcoin.
 258 2010-12-20 02:01:47 <Kiba> everyone have some power.
 259 2010-12-20 02:01:49 <epicurus> Juan|away,  oh yeah you are the guy who couldn't answer my questions in #economics
 260 2010-12-20 02:02:00 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|LOL
 261 2010-12-20 02:02:20 <epicurus> Juan|away,  yeah talking to you about it was totally worthless, so i thought i would come here and see what others say
 262 2010-12-20 02:02:21 <Keefe> to non-miners, who has how much processing power is irrelevant (except for security) as the same number of bitcoins will be generated. it's not the same as national central banks creating additional money
 263 2010-12-20 02:02:25 <Kiba> the miners would have nothing if nobody use bitcoin
 264 2010-12-20 02:02:40 <Kiba> the miners are at the mercy of the userbase.
 265 2010-12-20 02:02:45 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|epicurus : you know, dumb leftists never understand economics...
 266 2010-12-20 02:02:48 <MT`AwAy> miners depend on the bitcoin economy, and the bitcoin economy depends on miners
 267 2010-12-20 02:02:58 <Kiba> Juan|away: please refrain from ad homenin.
 268 2010-12-20 02:03:19 <Kiba> or personal attack.
 269 2010-12-20 02:03:23 <epicurus> Kiba,  but the power to create bitcoin is limited to those who have the necessary capital? is that right?
 270 2010-12-20 02:03:36 <Kiba> epicurus: Yes. They also process transaction.
 271 2010-12-20 02:03:39 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|kiba : tell that to epicurus, thanks?
 272 2010-12-20 02:04:08 <epicurus> Juan|away, i'm discussing something with serious people here. go away.
 273 2010-12-20 02:04:15 <Kiba> Juan|away: we are economists, we pretend everyone is without personal flaws.
 274 2010-12-20 02:04:34 <Kiba> well, I am not a professional one..but anyway
 275 2010-12-20 02:04:45 <noagendamarket> isnt there a different channel for these discussions?
 276 2010-12-20 02:04:45 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|pretennd being the keyword here? =]
 277 2010-12-20 02:04:47 <Kiba> epicurus: if you think that is evil, go away.
 278 2010-12-20 02:04:54 <Kiba> noagendamarket: we're discussing bitcoin.
 279 2010-12-20 02:05:03 <epicurus> what is evil?
 280 2010-12-20 02:05:20 <Kiba> you say there is no justification for miners, correct?
 281 2010-12-20 02:06:05 <epicurus> i'm asking you if cpu power should be the source of all capital in the system
 282 2010-12-20 02:06:14 <Kiba> epicurus: cpu power is not the source of all capital.
 283 2010-12-20 02:06:17 <Kiba> I have saving, ya know.
 284 2010-12-20 02:06:23 <Kiba> Most of it doesn't come from miners.
 285 2010-12-20 02:06:41 <epicurus> but to convert your savings into bitcoins requires bitcoins
 286 2010-12-20 02:06:53 <Kiba> I didn't convert them, I earned them.
 287 2010-12-20 02:07:00 <Kiba> on the market.
 288 2010-12-20 02:07:35 <Kiba> some of them might be miners. I don't really care. I earned bitcoin. I like earning them.
 289 2010-12-20 02:07:41 <epicurus> so back to the mining analogy
 290 2010-12-20 02:07:56 <epicurus> in gold mining, the owner of the mine must hire miners and pay them
 291 2010-12-20 02:08:09 <Kiba> Yes. What is wrong with that?
 292 2010-12-20 02:08:14 <theymos> Someone was asking for a /q interface to BBE's address totals. Here you go: http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress/1Cvvr8AsCfbbVQ2xoWiFD1Gb2VRbGsEf28
 293 2010-12-20 02:08:57 <epicurus> Kiba,  the limiting factor is that when the money supply is low, the gold they mine is enough to pay the miners salary and profit for the mine owner
 294 2010-12-20 02:08:59 <Kiba> Juan|away: I didn't know that you were there.
 295 2010-12-20 02:09:06 <theymos> (I'll probably not implement the other totals unless someone tells me a use-case, as they are usually not reliable.)
 296 2010-12-20 02:09:09 <Kiba> epicurus: yes. What about it?
 297 2010-12-20 02:09:10 <epicurus> but computers and robots don't get paid
 298 2010-12-20 02:09:21 <Kiba> what about it?
 299 2010-12-20 02:09:24 <Kiba> get to the point.
 300 2010-12-20 02:09:35 <epicurus> so where is the limit with bitcoin
 301 2010-12-20 02:09:42 <Kiba> what is a limit?
 302 2010-12-20 02:10:10 <epicurus> to limit someone from producing as many bitcoins as they want
 303 2010-12-20 02:10:19 <Kiba> epicurus: what about it?
 304 2010-12-20 02:10:19 <epicurus> with  miners, you have to pay the miners
 305 2010-12-20 02:10:32 <epicurus> but with cpu power, there is practically limitless idle cpu power available
 306 2010-12-20 02:10:38 <Kiba> ...
 307 2010-12-20 02:10:43 <Kiba> the limit is a bunch of code.
 308 2010-12-20 02:10:52 <epicurus> ok
 309 2010-12-20 02:11:07 <Kiba> it basically say you cannot create more than 21 million btc, period.
 310 2010-12-20 02:11:19 <epicurus> right
 311 2010-12-20 02:11:25 <MT`AwAy> theymos: thanks! :)
 312 2010-12-20 02:11:32 <donpdonp> epicurus: as soon as there are too many miners, bitcoin moves the gold another 1000ft below the surface with the 'difficult factor'.
 313 2010-12-20 02:11:45 <epicurus> i see
 314 2010-12-20 02:11:53 achasen has joined
 315 2010-12-20 02:11:57 <Kiba> this is a long and boring discussion
 316 2010-12-20 02:12:17 <xelister> indeed, lets instead discuss my picture bid, that is like cpu pool mining but better ;)
 317 2010-12-20 02:12:23 <achasen> I compiled the latest (r205) and am getting segfault when starting the miner
 318 2010-12-20 02:12:31 <achasen> is this a known issue?
 319 2010-12-20 02:13:02 <epicurus> Kiba,  so we've already decided how many bitcoins and how quickly they can be produced
 320 2010-12-20 02:13:07 <achasen> specifically during a clone
 321 2010-12-20 02:13:08 <epicurus> is this right?
 322 2010-12-20 02:13:20 <Kiba> I didn't decide. I accept the protocol.
 323 2010-12-20 02:13:38 <joe_1> cpu power has some properties that lend itself to bitcoin. a single person cannot control an arbitrarily large amount of cpu power, and this is why bitcoin works.
 324 2010-12-20 02:13:55 <epicurus> joe_1,  ok, thanks for telling me
 325 2010-12-20 02:14:16 <Kiba> what is your issue with it?
 326 2010-12-20 02:14:34 <epicurus> i'm trying to understand the logic behind it
 327 2010-12-20 02:14:49 <Kiba> good.
 328 2010-12-20 02:15:05 <Kiba> but I am bored.
 329 2010-12-20 02:15:18 <MT`AwAy> ?
 330 2010-12-20 02:15:19 <epicurus> joe_1,  so if we have decided the number and rate of bitcoin created.... what is the mining about
 331 2010-12-20 02:15:39 <Kiba> epicurus: mining secures the network.
 332 2010-12-20 02:15:45 <joe_1> it's a way to do an initial assignment of bitcoin to all people
 333 2010-12-20 02:15:53 <epicurus> Kiba,  from what, exactly? inflation?
 334 2010-12-20 02:16:03 <Kiba> epicurus: double spending and fraud mostly.
 335 2010-12-20 02:16:04 <epicurus> joe_1,  that's what i thought
 336 2010-12-20 02:16:30 <epicurus> but is this a fair assignment?
 337 2010-12-20 02:16:34 <joe_1> no
 338 2010-12-20 02:16:39 <Kiba> yes
 339 2010-12-20 02:16:41 <epicurus> no?
 340 2010-12-20 02:16:52 <joe_1> but it may be the most fair assignment that can be done in a decentralized way
 341 2010-12-20 02:16:59 <epicurus> ok
 342 2010-12-20 02:17:03 <Kiba> You do the work, you get bitcoin.
 343 2010-12-20 02:17:08 <Kiba> that's very simple.
 344 2010-12-20 02:17:24 <Kiba> if you do more work, you get bitcoin.
 345 2010-12-20 02:17:35 <Kiba> get more*
 346 2010-12-20 02:17:50 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 347 2010-12-20 02:17:51 <epicurus> it seems to me that if the total supply of bitcoins is to be 21 million... if bitcoin ever becomes the dominant monetary system, you're going to have a serious problem with divisibility
 348 2010-12-20 02:17:54 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, http://pastecoin.com/uploads/bitcoin_WikiIcon_da2ce7.rar
 349 2010-12-20 02:17:59 <da2ce7> if you like it.
 350 2010-12-20 02:18:08 <Kiba> epicurus: we have 8th place divisiblity.
 351 2010-12-20 02:18:20 <doublec> the coin limit is the least of the problems stopping bitcoin from being the dominant monetary system
 352 2010-12-20 02:18:22 <Kiba> if neccesary, we could probably expand it.
 353 2010-12-20 02:18:25 <doublec> but you have to start somewhere
 354 2010-12-20 02:18:27 <epicurus> Kiba,  but who actually does the work? the capitalist or the worker?
 355 2010-12-20 02:18:28 <ColonelPanic1> guys
 356 2010-12-20 02:18:34 <ColonelPanic1> it doesn't even matter if bitcoin fails
 357 2010-12-20 02:18:41 <ColonelPanic1> the idea is out there, someone will take it and make it better
 358 2010-12-20 02:18:42 <slush_cz> [pool] new accounting system online. Read forum thread if interested
 359 2010-12-20 02:18:45 <Kiba> epicurus: who care? if somebody do the work, it secures the network, and possible the bitcoin economy.
 360 2010-12-20 02:18:48 <epicurus> ColonelPanic1,  i agree
 361 2010-12-20 02:18:55 <Kiba> I care about the results, not who do the work.
 362 2010-12-20 02:18:58 <ColonelPanic1> and then all governments will collapse
 363 2010-12-20 02:19:01 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: not easy to recognize in size 16
 364 2010-12-20 02:19:03 <ColonelPanic1> when they can no longer tax the shit out of us
 365 2010-12-20 02:19:04 <Kiba> and make possible*
 366 2010-12-20 02:19:15 <ColonelPanic1> it'll be anarchy
 367 2010-12-20 02:19:20 <epicurus> Kiba, work is the wrong word
 368 2010-12-20 02:19:21 <Kiba> wee! anarcho-capitalism!
 369 2010-12-20 02:19:24 <Kiba> epicurus: what aobut it?
 370 2010-12-20 02:19:27 <Kiba> exploitation?
 371 2010-12-20 02:19:30 <epicurus> Kiba,  computers are doing the work
 372 2010-12-20 02:19:33 <Kiba> so?
 373 2010-12-20 02:19:42 <epicurus> so a lot of people don't own a computer
 374 2010-12-20 02:19:45 <Kiba> the capitalist took risk and thought he could make money off b itcoin
 375 2010-12-20 02:20:01 <Kiba> the capitalist spend more, he make more.
 376 2010-12-20 02:20:05 <epicurus> Kiba,  so those people are starting at a serious disadvantage
 377 2010-12-20 02:20:11 <Kiba> epicurus: not at all.
 378 2010-12-20 02:20:20 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, yep, was thinking that... I'll Try another.
 379 2010-12-20 02:20:38 <Kiba> if they have something to offer, they will get money
 380 2010-12-20 02:20:40 <Kiba> like me.
 381 2010-12-20 02:20:52 <epicurus> Kiba,  my idea of a decentralized monetary system would not limit distribution of the monetary unit to capitalists
 382 2010-12-20 02:21:06 <Kiba> epicurus: but I am getting money from working my ass off bitcoin
 383 2010-12-20 02:21:11 <Kiba> I am saving.
 384 2010-12-20 02:21:16 <epicurus> what work are you doing?
 385 2010-12-20 02:21:21 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: then how would you provide the initial funds on your system?
 386 2010-12-20 02:21:22 <Kiba> I draw arts for bitcoin
 387 2010-12-20 02:21:42 <Kiba> capitalists don't make money for the sake of making money, they make money to spend
 388 2010-12-20 02:22:17 <Kiba> that's ultimately what money for, to exchange goods and services.
 389 2010-12-20 02:22:29 <epicurus> MT in my opinion it's going to have to be a trust network of some kind, where value is monetized at the point of transaction. in other words, the buyer writes a check out of thin air and the seller chooses to accept that buyers credit or not
 390 2010-12-20 02:22:35 <Kiba> I sell goods to capitalists, they give me bitcoin
 391 2010-12-20 02:22:54 <Kiba> that is fair.
 392 2010-12-20 02:23:04 <Kiba> I get what I wanted
 393 2010-12-20 02:23:10 <Kiba> they get what they wanted
 394 2010-12-20 02:23:14 <Kiba> the two parties benefit.
 395 2010-12-20 02:23:18 <epicurus> MT i don't want to create a system based on the scarcity of money, i want to start a system based on the abundance of goods and services
 396 2010-12-20 02:23:35 <Kiba> goods and services are scarce until they're digital.
 397 2010-12-20 02:23:45 <Kiba> well..that's not the right way to say it
 398 2010-12-20 02:23:49 <Kiba> some goods are non-scarce
 399 2010-12-20 02:23:50 <epicurus> Kiba,  thats why they must be monetized
 400 2010-12-20 02:24:06 <Kiba> epicurus: the only thing that are monentizable are scarce goods and services
 401 2010-12-20 02:24:07 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: problem is people nowaday will not adopt a system and provide services and goods if it is not already working
 402 2010-12-20 02:24:12 <epicurus> to create money first and then try to seek prices based on a limited money supply will not work in my opinion
 403 2010-12-20 02:24:23 <Kiba> epicurus: why it does not work? the bitcoin economy is growing.
 404 2010-12-20 02:24:31 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: that's an interesting idea, but it would remove the "anonymous" part which is an important part of the bitcoin system and makes secure transactions possible
 405 2010-12-20 02:24:31 <x6763> epicurus: it is working as we speak
 406 2010-12-20 02:24:36 <epicurus> Kiba,  because the monetary base is limited
 407 2010-12-20 02:24:46 <Kiba> epicurus: why would the monentary base limited be a flaw?
 408 2010-12-20 02:24:48 <epicurus> you're trading in a sandbox
 409 2010-12-20 02:24:53 <Kiba> epicurus: I am not.
 410 2010-12-20 02:25:02 <Kiba> I can exchange bitcoins for dollars.
 411 2010-12-20 02:25:05 <epicurus> Kiba, that wasn;'t your answer. slow down.
 412 2010-12-20 02:25:05 <Kiba> and dollars for bitcoin
 413 2010-12-20 02:25:20 <Kiba> some goods are non-scarce. Some goods are.
 414 2010-12-20 02:25:30 <Kiba> the economy can only be based on scarce goods.
 415 2010-12-20 02:25:42 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|we need inflation - the more inflation, the better - just like in zimbabwe
 416 2010-12-20 02:25:45 <Kiba> because if the goods is unlimited, then it's paradise. There would be no economy.
 417 2010-12-20 02:26:00 <epicurus> MT ok
 418 2010-12-20 02:26:07 <Kiba> the economy is always based on scarce goods and services
 419 2010-12-20 02:26:19 <x6763> if goods were unlimited, there would be no reason to trade
 420 2010-12-20 02:26:24 <Kiba> x6763: that's correct.
 421 2010-12-20 02:26:27 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: a system based on trust would be interesting, I wonder if there's any way to make it work right
 422 2010-12-20 02:26:30 <epicurus> Kiba,  of course. but scarce money doesn't help
 423 2010-12-20 02:26:37 <MT`AwAy> (ie, technically)
 424 2010-12-20 02:26:37 <Kiba> epicurus: why it doesn't help?
 425 2010-12-20 02:27:31 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|what 'we' need is unlimited money - that will surely work....
 426 2010-12-20 02:27:31 <Kiba> brb
 427 2010-12-20 02:27:35 <epicurus> MT well i think we just make it so everyone has a personal balance of trade. this way you can't just write unlimited checks. you must keep your trade in balance for your credit to be good.
 428 2010-12-20 02:27:38 <Kiba> Juan...
 429 2010-12-20 02:27:58 <epicurus> Juan|away,  yes, precisely
 430 2010-12-20 02:28:04 <Kiba> epicurus: why would we have a personal balance of trade? what is that?
 431 2010-12-20 02:28:34 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 432 2010-12-20 02:28:37 <Kiba> what if I say, my personal balance is 100000 points
 433 2010-12-20 02:28:41 <Kiba> who would check me?
 434 2010-12-20 02:29:01 <epicurus> Kiba,  that's your credit rating
 435 2010-12-20 02:29:11 <Kiba> and what does it do? why would I want to use it over money?
 436 2010-12-20 02:29:21 <epicurus> if you produce more than you consumer, you have good credit
 437 2010-12-20 02:29:29 <Kiba> and how is this decided?
 438 2010-12-20 02:29:33 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|Exchange and money have nothing to do with credit - that's just another monetary misconception.
 439 2010-12-20 02:29:44 <Kiba> how is the price of my art is determined?
 440 2010-12-20 02:29:49 <epicurus> by credit i mean trustworthiness
 441 2010-12-20 02:30:03 <Kiba> epicurus: why would I want to trust somebody if I don't have to?
 442 2010-12-20 02:30:07 <epicurus> Kiba,  by what someone is willing to pay
 443 2010-12-20 02:30:28 <epicurus> Kiba,  do you want to be trusted?
 444 2010-12-20 02:30:34 <Kiba> how is the supply of credits is determined.
 445 2010-12-20 02:30:37 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|If I exchange an apple for an orange trustworthiness is irrelevant.
 446 2010-12-20 02:30:50 <Kiba> epicurus: bitcoiners naturally forms a network of trust.
 447 2010-12-20 02:31:16 <Kiba> but we don't trust when we don't have to
 448 2010-12-20 02:31:46 <Kiba> You see, I have no idea what you think the problem with bitcoin is.
 449 2010-12-20 02:31:53 <Kiba> it's fine for what it do.
 450 2010-12-20 02:32:07 <epicurus> bitcoin is a sandbox, it's a fine sandbox
 451 2010-12-20 02:32:13 <Kiba> sandbox is what?
 452 2010-12-20 02:32:40 <Kiba> if I sell pizza for bitcoins, is that still sandbox?
 453 2010-12-20 02:33:03 <epicurus> why not sell pizza for seashells
 454 2010-12-20 02:33:14 <Kiba> and why not, indeed? Because it's inconvenient.
 455 2010-12-20 02:33:29 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|because they are not being used as money right now
 456 2010-12-20 02:33:33 <Kiba> it's convenient for me to sell arts for bitcoin. I don't have to trust the user for chargebacking me
 457 2010-12-20 02:33:34 <epicurus> here's the problem
 458 2010-12-20 02:33:35 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|seashells are not
 459 2010-12-20 02:34:07 <epicurus> you are starting with a money you create out of nothing, and attempting to discover prices for goods and services
 460 2010-12-20 02:34:34 <joe_1> epicuris: the difference between seashells and bitcoins, is that bitcoin is not an arbitrary sandbox that someone dreamed up. It is a special sandbox: it is the first cryptocurrency. And being the first makes it notable, and what people will want to use, if cryptocurrency catches on.
 461 2010-12-20 02:34:34 <Kiba> yes.
 462 2010-12-20 02:34:40 <epicurus> if you create the money first, you are just creating scarcity
 463 2010-12-20 02:34:47 <jgarzik> it's anything but a sandbox.  exchanging for real currency is a huge driver of bitcoin value right now.  I'd argue it's exchange rate speculation rather than the implied sandbox.
 464 2010-12-20 02:34:59 <epicurus> i say what needs to happen is you need to create money for each instance of value created
 465 2010-12-20 02:35:02 <Kiba> epicurus: scarcity is created how?
 466 2010-12-20 02:35:08 <x6763> creating money where there was none is decreasing scarcity
 467 2010-12-20 02:35:13 <epicurus> Kiba,  by a limited monetary unit
 468 2010-12-20 02:35:14 <Kiba> bitcoin is a form of artifical scarcity sure, but it's useful scarcity
 469 2010-12-20 02:35:23 <x6763> new options for trade are now open due to this new currency
 470 2010-12-20 02:35:25 <epicurus> well, i don't agree
 471 2010-12-20 02:35:34 <Kiba> epicurus: well...you need to explain better
 472 2010-12-20 02:35:37 <Kiba> because I don't understand.
 473 2010-12-20 02:35:40 <epicurus> it's only useful for people who have bitcoins
 474 2010-12-20 02:35:45 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
 475 2010-12-20 02:35:46 <x6763> anyone can get bitcoins
 476 2010-12-20 02:35:52 <epicurus> people who have bitcoins want to trade for real stuff
 477 2010-12-20 02:35:59 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
 478 2010-12-20 02:36:17 <epicurus> ok let me try this
 479 2010-12-20 02:36:36 <Kiba> you better hope so.
 480 2010-12-20 02:36:39 <epicurus> Kiba,  since the supply of bitcoins is limited, what do you expect to happen in the future
 481 2010-12-20 02:36:48 <Kiba> deflation.
 482 2010-12-20 02:36:51 <epicurus> Kiba,  theoretically prices should fall, yes
 483 2010-12-20 02:37:05 <MT`AwAy> a quote I like: "Everyone knew it to be impossible. Then came someone who didn't know that and did it."
 484 2010-12-20 02:37:19 <Kiba> epicurus: get to the point!
 485 2010-12-20 02:37:35 <epicurus> MT so you think deflation is good for investment?
 486 2010-12-20 02:37:37 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, ok this one may be better at stupid small size:http://pastecoin.com/uploads/BCW3_da2ce7.rar
 487 2010-12-20 02:37:43 <Kiba> epicurus: it's good for my saving
 488 2010-12-20 02:37:46 <Kiba> I like deflation.
 489 2010-12-20 02:37:57 <epicurus> oh i see. you have a bitcoin.
 490 2010-12-20 02:37:57 <x6763> i prefer my money to increase in value, not decrease in value
 491 2010-12-20 02:38:00 <epicurus> how nice for you.
 492 2010-12-20 02:38:12 <Kiba> epicurus: good. Now move on.
 493 2010-12-20 02:38:16 <epicurus> but guess what? most of the world does not have a bitcoin.
 494 2010-12-20 02:38:19 <Kiba> so?
 495 2010-12-20 02:38:27 <Kiba> they didn't get on bitcoin. Their fault.
 496 2010-12-20 02:38:37 <epicurus> so you're trying to get rich
 497 2010-12-20 02:38:44 <MT`AwAy> most of the world does not have japanese yens either, but I'm doing fine
 498 2010-12-20 02:38:46 <Kiba> epicurus: what's wrong wtih getting rich?
 499 2010-12-20 02:38:46 <epicurus> you aren't looking at a solution to the problem of money
 500 2010-12-20 02:38:55 <Kiba> what is the problem of money?
 501 2010-12-20 02:39:11 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: ok, let's try it
 502 2010-12-20 02:39:29 <epicurus> Kiba,  look around. the world financial system is a mess.
 503 2010-12-20 02:39:38 <Kiba> epicurus: what is the problem of money?
 504 2010-12-20 02:39:38 <epicurus> Kiba,  peoples savings is evaporating
 505 2010-12-20 02:39:50 <Kiba> epicurus: and deflation increase the value of people's saving.
 506 2010-12-20 02:40:00 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162| peoples savings is evaporating <--solution? why, inflation!!!
 507 2010-12-20 02:40:05 <epicurus> Kiba,  the problem IS, a small group of people has a monopoly on money creation
 508 2010-12-20 02:40:13 <epicurus> Kiba,  same as you are trying to do
 509 2010-12-20 02:40:23 <Kiba> epicurus: there can only be 21 million bitcoins.
 510 2010-12-20 02:40:37 <Kiba> I don't see the problem of saving evaporation.
 511 2010-12-20 02:40:41 <epicurus> it doesn't matter how few, the question is distribution
 512 2010-12-20 02:40:42 <Kiba> and I don't create money.
 513 2010-12-20 02:40:54 <Kiba> epicurus: what distribution do you like?
 514 2010-12-20 02:41:02 <epicurus> i told you
 515 2010-12-20 02:41:08 <Kiba> what distribution do you like?
 516 2010-12-20 02:41:16 <Kiba> tell me, explictly. Don't implie.
 517 2010-12-20 02:41:16 <epicurus> it is retarded to try to create money out of nothing and then assign a value to it
 518 2010-12-20 02:41:31 <Kiba> epicurus: answer the question.
 519 2010-12-20 02:41:54 <epicurus> Kiba,  no distribution at all and no arbitrary money creation by a central power
 520 2010-12-20 02:41:56 <da2ce7> epicurus, it isn't out of nothing, it is out of the work that is required to make the chain secure.
 521 2010-12-20 02:41:56 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|the financial system is a mess because there are people who think that creating money out of thin air is harmless
 522 2010-12-20 02:41:58 <Kiba> I am not the smartest person at all.
 523 2010-12-20 02:42:10 <epicurus> Kiba,  total decentralization of money is the distribution i favor
 524 2010-12-20 02:42:15 <Kiba> epicurus: no distribution at all. WHat does that mean?
 525 2010-12-20 02:42:17 <epicurus> monetization of value at the point of transaction
 526 2010-12-20 02:42:21 <Kiba> epicurus: but bitcoin is decentralized?
 527 2010-12-20 02:42:29 <Kiba> miners have to compete for their share.
 528 2010-12-20 02:42:31 <epicurus> it's only decentralized in its function
 529 2010-12-20 02:42:39 <epicurus> it is not decentralized in its creation
 530 2010-12-20 02:43:03 <Kiba> epicurus: what problems does "centralized" creation create?
 531 2010-12-20 02:43:07 <slush_cz> epicurus: I was using bitcoin months ago than I started with mining
 532 2010-12-20 02:43:07 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|so there's only one guy creating all the bitcoins?
 533 2010-12-20 02:43:09 <da2ce7> as is anything... If something was absolutely decentralized, it would have no realtionsip with anything els.
 534 2010-12-20 02:43:13 <Kiba> you say people's saving is evaporating
 535 2010-12-20 02:43:19 <DerrikeG> It is distributed "fairly", it is of limited quantity, it can't easily be lost/destroyed/stolen. It's pretty groundbreaking to have verified permanence of a digital entity in itself.
 536 2010-12-20 02:43:34 <epicurus> slush_cz, ok, and?
 537 2010-12-20 02:43:48 <slush_cz> epicurus: I don't need to be miner to have bitcoins
 538 2010-12-20 02:43:56 <Kiba> epicurus: what is the problem you're talking about.
 539 2010-12-20 02:44:04 <Kiba> you're saying the financial system is a mess. Right?
 540 2010-12-20 02:44:12 <Kiba> then you say something about people's saving is evaporating.
 541 2010-12-20 02:44:15 <epicurus> Kiba,  there are many problems
 542 2010-12-20 02:44:15 <Kiba> is that correct?
 543 2010-12-20 02:44:30 <Kiba> epicurus: what kind of other problems you think there is in money?
 544 2010-12-20 02:44:43 <epicurus> Kiba,  yes, the central banks and their associated bank members have a monopoly on credit and money creation
 545 2010-12-20 02:44:49 <joe_1> the current distribution method is nearly optimal given the objectives of bitcoin, which is to be anonymous and decentralized.
 546 2010-12-20 02:44:54 <epicurus> Kiba,  through that they rule the world. you didn't know?
 547 2010-12-20 02:45:02 <Kiba> epicurus: and what effects does it have on the economy?
 548 2010-12-20 02:45:10 <epicurus> they buy your government, they buy your media
 549 2010-12-20 02:45:12 <joe_1> Once initial distribution is complete, the only flow of money to miners will be through transaction fees, which will be driven by market forces.
 550 2010-12-20 02:45:18 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|"monopoly on credit "<---isn't credit the same thing as 'trustworthiness' - how can they have a monopoly on that?
 551 2010-12-20 02:45:20 <slush_cz> epicurus: If you think bitcoins are centralized, what about central banks and printing money?
 552 2010-12-20 02:45:23 <Kiba> epicurus: the government is ruled by democracy. Democracy is evil.
 553 2010-12-20 02:45:32 <ne0futur> OT : thousand million dollars of the US taxpayer to overthrow a democracy
 554 2010-12-20 02:45:35 <ne0futur> R.T #Wikileaks: Documents Confirm US Plans Against Venezuela. http://bit.ly/ftrKs9
 555 2010-12-20 02:45:37 <epicurus> Kiba,  right now the effect is that a tiny minority is sucking up all the wealth and the other 95% is getting poorer
 556 2010-12-20 02:45:51 <Kiba> epicurus: clearly if you save your bitcoin, you will get richer.
 557 2010-12-20 02:45:54 <Kiba> do you hate saving?
 558 2010-12-20 02:46:00 <epicurus> slush_cz,  clearly i am saying they are centralized too. and bitcoin is not solving that problem.
 559 2010-12-20 02:46:02 <ne0futur> Kiba: democracy is now an illusion
 560 2010-12-20 02:46:09 <Kiba> ne0futur: democracy is still true as ever.
 561 2010-12-20 02:46:18 <Kiba> the only problem is that people think democracy is an illusion. It is not.
 562 2010-12-20 02:46:28 <Kiba> It is two wolves and one chicken deciding what to eat for dinner.
 563 2010-12-20 02:46:30 <epicurus> but lets say people adopt bitcoin... when deflation comes, each bitcoin must be divided into smaller and smaller pieces
 564 2010-12-20 02:46:41 <ne0futur> its is not in switzerland where people vote for real things
 565 2010-12-20 02:46:49 <Kiba> like what?
 566 2010-12-20 02:46:54 <ne0futur> it is an illusion in any other country
 567 2010-12-20 02:47:08 <ne0futur> they vote for abortion or against pot prohibition for example
 568 2010-12-20 02:47:30 <Kiba> ne0futur: Californian voted for pot prohibition.
 569 2010-12-20 02:47:32 <epicurus> democracy can work but usually doesn't
 570 2010-12-20 02:47:35 <x6763> epicurus: bitcoins are divisible into more units than any other money in existence
 571 2010-12-20 02:47:41 <ne0futur> in other countries you re just choosing between a lier and a bitch
 572 2010-12-20 02:47:50 <ne0futur> and anyway they ll do nearly the same things
 573 2010-12-20 02:47:51 <x6763> (except maybe zimbabwees)
 574 2010-12-20 02:47:54 <epicurus> x6763,  if they aren't infinitely divisible it won't work
 575 2010-12-20 02:47:54 <MT`AwAy> :D
 576 2010-12-20 02:48:00 <DerrikeG> poor zimbabwe
 577 2010-12-20 02:48:08 <Kiba> epicurus: it's divisble to the 8th place..and more...eventually
 578 2010-12-20 02:48:16 <epicurus> that's not enough
 579 2010-12-20 02:48:16 <Kiba> I don't see the problem of someone being rich.
 580 2010-12-20 02:48:23 <Kiba> You clearly have problems with people being rich.
 581 2010-12-20 02:48:24 <epicurus> Kiba,  divide all the wealth of the world by 21,000,000
 582 2010-12-20 02:48:26 <x6763> epicurus: the money supply does not need to grow
 583 2010-12-20 02:48:28 <epicurus> Kiba,  tell me the answer
 584 2010-12-20 02:48:29 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
 585 2010-12-20 02:48:31 FreeMoney has joined
 586 2010-12-20 02:48:31 <joe_1> epicuris, the system is set up to be able to handle higher levels of precision. some small "one-line" code change will be needed to allow it, by my understanding.
 587 2010-12-20 02:48:32 <Kiba> it's small.
 588 2010-12-20 02:48:32 <DerrikeG> epicurus: I would like to see you obtain a fraction of a penny.
 589 2010-12-20 02:48:33 <Kiba> so what.
 590 2010-12-20 02:48:46 <da2ce7> epicurus, how much is enougth?
 591 2010-12-20 02:48:47 <Kiba> what's the big issue here?
 592 2010-12-20 02:48:52 <epicurus> DerrikeG, i would simply create a new penny as needed
 593 2010-12-20 02:49:01 <MT`AwAy> 21000000 is in fact 2100000000000000
 594 2010-12-20 02:49:06 <DerrikeG> epicurus: Isn't that illegal?
 595 2010-12-20 02:49:08 <Kiba> epicurus: so you hate rich people.
 596 2010-12-20 02:49:10 <x6763> epicurus: then you're no better than the Federal Reserve, creating money at a whim
 597 2010-12-20 02:49:26 <Kiba> epicurus hates rich people!
 598 2010-12-20 02:49:29 <x6763> hurting everyone's savings
 599 2010-12-20 02:49:33 <epicurus> da2ce7,  i don't know. what is the value of the entire world economy? divide that by 21,000,000/ and don't forget to account for expansion and growth
 600 2010-12-20 02:49:43 <epicurus> Kiba,  i
 601 2010-12-20 02:49:50 <da2ce7> nothing wrong about being rich, it just means that people owe you lots of good-will.
 602 2010-12-20 02:49:51 <da2ce7> :D
 603 2010-12-20 02:49:53 <epicurus> Kiba,  i am going to have to put you on ignore. you're a troll.
 604 2010-12-20 02:50:04 <Kiba> GOSH, I AM A TROLL!
 605 2010-12-20 02:50:09 <x6763> haha, Kiba's not a troll
 606 2010-12-20 02:50:15 <sgornick> epicurus: Feel free to create a parallel bitcoin, mint all 21,000,000, then distribute equally.
 607 2010-12-20 02:50:17 <theymos> Another new real-time stats page: http://blockexplorer.com/q/addressfirstseen
 608 2010-12-20 02:50:18 <da2ce7> lol epicurus, I was thinking the same about you
 609 2010-12-20 02:50:32 <Kiba> epicurus: do you hate rich people or not?
 610 2010-12-20 02:50:36 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|Kiba : there you go - either believe in proudhon's revealed word or you  are a troll....
 611 2010-12-20 02:50:39 <Kiba> oh right, epicurus is ignoring me.
 612 2010-12-20 02:50:55 <epicurus> Kiba,  you tell me. you're making this story up as you go along.
 613 2010-12-20 02:51:04 <Kiba> I am making stories up?
 614 2010-12-20 02:51:14 <Kiba> did I make any stories up?
 615 2010-12-20 02:51:17 <epicurus> you claim to read my mind
 616 2010-12-20 02:51:17 <da2ce7> Kiba, don't feed the troll.
 617 2010-12-20 02:51:27 <Kiba> epicurus: I didn't claim to read your mind.
 618 2010-12-20 02:51:32 <Kiba> I was trying to guess your mind.
 619 2010-12-20 02:51:38 <epicurus> you told us all what i think about the rich
 620 2010-12-20 02:51:55 <Kiba> yes. ANd you didn't choose to deny it or not.
 621 2010-12-20 02:52:03 <Kiba> you just say I am a troll.
 622 2010-12-20 02:52:10 <epicurus> it's not worth responding to
 623 2010-12-20 02:52:13 <epicurus> you are
 624 2010-12-20 02:52:24 <epicurus> that's what trolls do
 625 2010-12-20 02:52:37 <epicurus> they make shit up about people
 626 2010-12-20 02:52:44 <Kiba> ah come on, trolls are often distinguisable to true believers.
 627 2010-12-20 02:52:53 <Kiba> look, I believed you are a communist. Pure and simple.
 628 2010-12-20 02:53:07 <epicurus> but look Kiba
 629 2010-12-20 02:53:08 <Kiba> the way you say things make me believed you are a communist.
 630 2010-12-20 02:53:10 <epicurus> here's what i'm saying
 631 2010-12-20 02:53:27 <epicurus> Kiba,  if you aren't trying to create a system that can work for everyone, you are just creating another problem
 632 2010-12-20 02:53:35 <epicurus> so play in your sandbox
 633 2010-12-20 02:53:43 <epicurus> you can trade with other bitcoin people
 634 2010-12-20 02:53:46 <Kiba> I didn't create the system
 635 2010-12-20 02:53:48 <Kiba> satoshi does.
 636 2010-12-20 02:53:57 <epicurus> ok
 637 2010-12-20 02:53:58 <da2ce7> our sandbox will get bigger and bigger faster than yours.
 638 2010-12-20 02:53:59 <da2ce7> :D
 639 2010-12-20 02:54:07 <epicurus> so it's just your religion
 640 2010-12-20 02:54:10 <Kiba> epicurus: look, I been trying to understand you for the past 30 minutes.
 641 2010-12-20 02:54:13 <epicurus> you don't really know what you're doing
 642 2010-12-20 02:54:17 <Kiba> I asked a lot of question
 643 2010-12-20 02:54:23 <Kiba> but I am not getting clear reception.
 644 2010-12-20 02:54:32 <epicurus> you don't listen
 645 2010-12-20 02:54:32 <da2ce7> we have a sustained groth of _AT LEAST_ 37% p.a. atm
 646 2010-12-20 02:54:42 <Kiba> epicurus: listen is not the same thing as understanding.
 647 2010-12-20 02:54:48 <Kiba> I don't understand.
 648 2010-12-20 02:54:53 <epicurus> da2ce7,  by what metric "growth"?
 649 2010-12-20 02:55:08 <epicurus> Kiba,  ok let me ask you some questions now
 650 2010-12-20 02:55:12 <da2ce7> ah, increasing of size of the bitcoin economy.
 651 2010-12-20 02:55:15 <epicurus> Kiba,  what is the purpose of bitcoin?
 652 2010-12-20 02:55:30 <jgarzik> Version 0.3.1 of cpuminer released.  Changes:
 653 2010-12-20 02:55:30 <jgarzik> - Critical fix for sha256_via
 654 2010-12-20 02:55:30 <jgarzik> - Retry JSON-RPC failures (see --retry, under "minerd --help" output)
 655 2010-12-20 02:55:31 <Kiba> epicurus: what is the purpose, according to who?
 656 2010-12-20 02:55:34 <epicurus> da2ce7,  measured in what? dollars?
 657 2010-12-20 02:55:36 <Kiba> there's a purpose for bitcoin for me.
 658 2010-12-20 02:55:42 <Kiba> monentary freedom.
 659 2010-12-20 02:55:42 <epicurus> Kiba,  you, of course
 660 2010-12-20 02:55:51 <epicurus> define monetary freedom
 661 2010-12-20 02:55:53 <da2ce7> percentage, p.a.
 662 2010-12-20 02:55:57 <Kiba> freedom to use any kind of money I wanted.
 663 2010-12-20 02:56:15 <Kiba> whether that is seashell, bitcoiners, or fiat money, or gold.
 664 2010-12-20 02:56:27 <Kiba> s/bitcoiners/bitcoins
 665 2010-12-20 02:56:54 <epicurus> Kiba,  that's fine. but i'm concerned mostly with what kind of monetary system will unlock the potential of people and the world economy
 666 2010-12-20 02:57:06 <Kiba> I think bitcoin can do that.
 667 2010-12-20 02:57:34 <Kiba> but economic freedom will find the best kidn of money in the long run. Bitcoin could fail. But the hope is, it will create and open a new market for money.
 668 2010-12-20 02:57:38 <Kiba> that is what I like.
 669 2010-12-20 02:57:58 <epicurus> Kiba, well, i'm not convinced that a system with a limited money supply concentrated in the hands of a few can really do that
 670 2010-12-20 02:58:16 <Kiba> epicurus: than make your own money and do that. We bitcoiners don't undertand you. Prove us wrong.
 671 2010-12-20 02:58:18 <Kiba> or go away.
 672 2010-12-20 02:58:49 <epicurus> ok, but you sound like a cult member when you say that
 673 2010-12-20 02:58:53 <[Noodles]> join the few, open your hands and get your share, there's still some coins left to find
 674 2010-12-20 02:58:54 <Kiba> no.
 675 2010-12-20 02:59:05 <Kiba> a cult member wouldn't be so open to competition.
 676 2010-12-20 02:59:15 <epicurus> Kiba,  i'm not saying bitcoin can't or doesn't work. i'm saying it doesn't do what i want to do.
 677 2010-12-20 02:59:28 <epicurus> what i want IT to do
 678 2010-12-20 02:59:29 <Kiba> epicurus: than prove us wrong
 679 2010-12-20 02:59:32 <da2ce7> then don't use it
 680 2010-12-20 02:59:37 <Kiba> exactly.
 681 2010-12-20 02:59:44 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: and we're saying what you want to do is not compatible with bitcoin
 682 2010-12-20 02:59:47 <epicurus> i didn't come here to ask you if i should use it
 683 2010-12-20 03:00:07 <epicurus> i'm trying to find out what you think the future and goal of bitcoin is
 684 2010-12-20 03:00:09 <[Noodles]> what is it that you want todo?
 685 2010-12-20 03:00:27 <Kiba> epicurus: Ask Satoshi. We have little understanding of what he's trying to do.
 686 2010-12-20 03:00:48 <Kiba> I think most bitcoinrs think Satoshi have the same goal as them...
 687 2010-12-20 03:00:55 <epicurus> [Noodles],  basically i think scarcity of money is archaic... i want money to be created on the fly as needed, to accomodate economic growth
 688 2010-12-20 03:00:58 <epicurus> BUT
 689 2010-12-20 03:01:09 <epicurus> it must be decentralized, so no government or corporation can control that
 690 2010-12-20 03:01:19 <Kiba> yes. And go away.
 691 2010-12-20 03:01:20 <epicurus> THAT is my goal
 692 2010-12-20 03:01:23 <[Noodles]> if money can be created on-the-fly, what's it worth?
 693 2010-12-20 03:01:28 <Kiba> 0.
 694 2010-12-20 03:01:37 <epicurus> [Noodles],  money is never worth anything
 695 2010-12-20 03:01:46 <epicurus> what money buys is worth something
 696 2010-12-20 03:01:51 <da2ce7> your goal isn't possible, something must be agreed to have value, to have value.
 697 2010-12-20 03:01:52 <Kiba> money is worth something.
 698 2010-12-20 03:02:07 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: this idea is interesting, however it cannot work at all over a network, can only be used in communities where everyone's identity is known and trusted
 699 2010-12-20 03:02:11 <Kiba> it's a good in itself.
 700 2010-12-20 03:02:17 <epicurus> no. money is completely worthless without something to trade for
 701 2010-12-20 03:02:21 <da2ce7> you cannont creat something and expect it to have value if only you make it.
 702 2010-12-20 03:02:23 <epicurus> you cannot buy what is not for sale.
 703 2010-12-20 03:02:23 <Kiba> it's a good in itself.
 704 2010-12-20 03:02:30 <Kiba> money does what money does.
 705 2010-12-20 03:02:40 <da2ce7> but I beleve that epicurus is a troll.
 706 2010-12-20 03:02:51 <epicurus> da2ce7,  why?
 707 2010-12-20 03:02:51 <Kiba> da2ce7: true believers are indistinguisable from troll.
 708 2010-12-20 03:03:07 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|well, epicurus is the typical money crank...
 709 2010-12-20 03:03:17 <Kiba> Juan|away: I think he is....
 710 2010-12-20 03:03:28 <epicurus> Juan|away,  which means what, exactly?
 711 2010-12-20 03:03:31 <Kiba> but we are called money crank too.
 712 2010-12-20 03:03:37 <Kiba> epicurus: it means you're full of bullshit.
 713 2010-12-20 03:03:52 <[Noodles]> you can not create something of value, that has no value, how would you do that? and what would you buy with that created something that has no value? who would sell anything for it and why? to lose value, by giving you goods for nothing?
 714 2010-12-20 03:03:55 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|epicurus : that you don't understand money and think that 'unlimited' money is the answer.
 715 2010-12-20 03:04:00 <epicurus> Kiba,  i don't think you even know what you're talking about, at all.
 716 2010-12-20 03:04:11 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|Juan|away : you also ignore all criticism to your 'theory'
 717 2010-12-20 03:04:19 <epicurus> yes
 718 2010-12-20 03:04:28 <Kiba> epicurus: Oh please. just because you're calling us money crank doesn't mean we're money crank.
 719 2010-12-20 03:04:40 <epicurus> i'm not calling you anything
 720 2010-12-20 03:04:48 <Kiba> money crank means you're full of bullshit about money.
 721 2010-12-20 03:04:50 <epicurus> stop acting like a scientologist
 722 2010-12-20 03:05:11 <Kiba> epicurus: Austrians are called money cranks too. It's just an insult.
 723 2010-12-20 03:05:14 <da2ce7> epicurus I think that you should go to: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2155.0  and do some study
 724 2010-12-20 03:05:24 <da2ce7> you can ask questions here if you get stuck
 725 2010-12-20 03:05:33 <Kiba> surely you can understand the meaning of an insult.
 726 2010-12-20 03:05:50 <epicurus> da2ce7,  yes, i agree, and i will study it further. but i didn't come here to prove anyone wrong.
 727 2010-12-20 03:05:57 <noagendamarket> the fed creates money on the fly...hows that turning out for you?
 728 2010-12-20 03:06:08 <x6763> epicurus: maybe you should visit mises.org and download some books from their huge library of free books
 729 2010-12-20 03:06:17 <Kiba> epicurus: for the last 30 minutes I been trying to acheive understanding
 730 2010-12-20 03:06:19 <Kiba> and I get nothing.
 731 2010-12-20 03:06:20 <epicurus> noagendamarket, but the fed has a monopoly on money creation, and they abuse it
 732 2010-12-20 03:06:25 <MT`AwAy> noagendamarket: banks too I guess
 733 2010-12-20 03:06:39 <Kiba> there's all sort of check and balance.
 734 2010-12-20 03:06:45 <epicurus> noagendamarket,  if you had listened to me, you would know that i advocate a decentralized system untouchable by government or corporate
 735 2010-12-20 03:06:48 <noagendamarket> epicurus and you wouldnt right?
 736 2010-12-20 03:06:49 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|epicurus : and money creation by ppl 'writing checks' is not a workable system.
 737 2010-12-20 03:06:50 <noagendamarket> hahahaha
 738 2010-12-20 03:07:02 <Kiba> Satoshi knew that if we tries to make one bitcoin more in the money supply, his project would get forked and nbody would trust him.
 739 2010-12-20 03:07:10 <epicurus> so lets's be clear
 740 2010-12-20 03:07:21 <epicurus> bitcoin is not trying to create a working monetary system for the world
 741 2010-12-20 03:07:30 <[Noodles]> of course not
 742 2010-12-20 03:07:45 <Kiba> we're about achviening economic freedom; at least some of us.
 743 2010-12-20 03:07:52 <Kiba> Satoshi's goal could be that. It seem to be.
 744 2010-12-20 03:07:56 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: bitcoin is trying to create an alternative money system for people using bitcoin
 745 2010-12-20 03:08:04 <epicurus> bitcoin is a game for people who think they can get rich..., like Kiba , or sandbox players who want to play in an underground economy but with no hope of scaling up
 746 2010-12-20 03:08:08 <epicurus> and that;s fine
 747 2010-12-20 03:08:10 <Kiba> epicurus: it's not a game.
 748 2010-12-20 03:08:12 <epicurus> it is what it is
 749 2010-12-20 03:08:22 <Kiba> it's real. I sell arts for bitcoin. It's not a game.
 750 2010-12-20 03:08:22 <MT`AwAy> creating a working monetary system for the world is not something that can be done by a few thousand peopel
 751 2010-12-20 03:08:34 <Kiba> just becuase I am trying to get rich doesn't mean it isn't a game.
 752 2010-12-20 03:08:43 <ColonelPanic1> life is a chess game
 753 2010-12-20 03:08:44 <theymos> It seems to me that Satoshi's goal was to create a new, innovative P2P network. I don't think his main goal was economic freedom, thoguh he is a libertarian.
 754 2010-12-20 03:08:48 <ColonelPanic1> make the right moves with the right pieces
 755 2010-12-20 03:08:52 <da2ce7> lol, it is a game, but it just happens that this game is very proffitable... normaly a symptiom of it being a good game to play.
 756 2010-12-20 03:08:59 <ColonelPanic1> understand what every piece does and where it's useful to you
 757 2010-12-20 03:09:00 <epicurus> it's a real game, and the coin is a monopoly of the people making the rules, same as the fed
 758 2010-12-20 03:09:01 <ColonelPanic1> and you will pwn at life
 759 2010-12-20 03:09:22 <[Noodles]> i dont think i'm getting rich, but i think i might save a lot more than on current banking-systems of any kind, that's why i keep investing in bitcoin, instead of feeding fat bankers asses
 760 2010-12-20 03:09:26 <epicurus> ColonelPanic1,  that's a fine philosophy, nothing wrong with it
 761 2010-12-20 03:09:27 <Kiba> epicurus: there is no monopoly. WE can't enforce our monopoly. It is based on each user who is introduced bitcoin whether or not to accept bitcoin.
 762 2010-12-20 03:09:46 <epicurus> Kiba,  but the early adopter has the advantage
 763 2010-12-20 03:09:58 <da2ce7> epicurus you are welcome to pay, but if you break the rules, we will not accept you.
 764 2010-12-20 03:09:59 <Kiba> epicurus: the early adopter also have the disadvantage
 765 2010-12-20 03:10:02 <Kiba> if this currency failed
 766 2010-12-20 03:10:07 <Kiba> WE ARE SCREWED
 767 2010-12-20 03:10:08 <epicurus> the technologically disadvantaged will be left behind
 768 2010-12-20 03:10:09 <ColonelPanic1> epicurus: I'm glad you think so, some people think it's rather cold
 769 2010-12-20 03:10:15 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the early adopters are betting on the concept, they take huge risks
 770 2010-12-20 03:10:19 <Kiba> epicurus: than solve the technological divide.
 771 2010-12-20 03:10:28 <epicurus> MT what is the risk?
 772 2010-12-20 03:10:28 <joe_1> I disagree, my goal for bitcoin is for it to become a leading world money. I recognize the non-optimal-ness of the initial distribution, which epicuris pointed out, however, if others understand that the currency was designed, implemented, and distributed in a good-faith way, and there was no better way, they will accept it.
 773 2010-12-20 03:10:34 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: leave the technologically disavantaged get food before you impose them a new monetary system
 774 2010-12-20 03:10:40 <da2ce7> or just pay for some sex with your bitcoins, that could make you happy also
 775 2010-12-20 03:10:41 <[Noodles]> noones left behind, nbitcoin is not about generating money, it's about "using cash online"
 776 2010-12-20 03:10:53 <epicurus> MT i would hope a fair system would help them get food
 777 2010-12-20 03:10:59 <noagendamarket> da2ce7 lol
 778 2010-12-20 03:10:59 <ColonelPanic1> joe_1: bitcoin might not become that currency, but some anonymous digital p2p cryptocurrency will, it's the way of the future, I can see it
 779 2010-12-20 03:11:09 <noagendamarket> hookers4bitcoin
 780 2010-12-20 03:11:13 <da2ce7> :D
 781 2010-12-20 03:11:15 <epicurus> joe_1,  thanks
 782 2010-12-20 03:11:21 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: they have nothing the rest of the world would accept to exchange, thru they'd get no currency, and no more food
 783 2010-12-20 03:11:22 <Kiba> blah, it's hard to not called epicurus a money crank.
 784 2010-12-20 03:11:30 <epicurus> joe_1 understands something
 785 2010-12-20 03:11:31 <donpdonp> ColonelPanic1: yes it seems inevitable. even if bitcoin is not it, it has certainly helped blaze the trail for future currencies
 786 2010-12-20 03:12:01 <noagendamarket> bitcoin is ope source so anyone can setup their own chain
 787 2010-12-20 03:12:07 <Kiba> meanwhile, we got some work to do to expand the bitcoin economy
 788 2010-12-20 03:12:17 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: anyway money is not a source of fairness, it has never been and will probably never be
 789 2010-12-20 03:12:23 <epicurus> joe_1,  still, even if they accept it,  i don't think it can scale up to the goal you and i have
 790 2010-12-20 03:12:25 <noagendamarket> maybe satoshi thought walmart would have their own block chain
 791 2010-12-20 03:12:30 <da2ce7> yeah, we gotta maintain this insane rate of 37% p.a.
 792 2010-12-20 03:12:30 <noagendamarket> lol
 793 2010-12-20 03:12:32 <da2ce7> :D
 794 2010-12-20 03:12:32 <Kiba> Life is unfair.
 795 2010-12-20 03:12:41 <Kiba> but I wanna get rich!
 796 2010-12-20 03:12:47 <Kiba> who's with me?
 797 2010-12-20 03:12:54 <da2ce7> yep, I'm in
 798 2010-12-20 03:13:01 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I'm against you ;) wanna get rich too :p
 799 2010-12-20 03:13:02 <ColonelPanic1> donpdonp: blaze the trail, lol
 800 2010-12-20 03:13:25 <Kiba> Murray Rothbard actually have a dedication to libertarians in his MES book
 801 2010-12-20 03:13:32 <da2ce7> but, I'm gonna get rich by helping people, throogh trade.
 802 2010-12-20 03:13:38 <Kiba> Libertarians of the Past
 803 2010-12-20 03:13:42 <Kiba> who Blazed the Trail
 804 2010-12-20 03:13:43 <Kiba> and to
 805 2010-12-20 03:13:50 <Kiba> Libetarians of the FUture, who Shall Overcome
 806 2010-12-20 03:13:58 <epicurus> joe_1,  i think there might be better ways to start an initial distribution
 807 2010-12-20 03:14:02 <Kiba> that us :D
 808 2010-12-20 03:14:10 <Kiba> epicurus: go implement it instead of crying to us about it
 809 2010-12-20 03:14:28 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: would you mind writing a paper about that?
 810 2010-12-20 03:14:34 <x6763> epicurus: do you have any economic background at all?
 811 2010-12-20 03:14:34 <da2ce7> epicurus, 50BTC are up for grabs, write a great Encyclope Diadramatica article, if you wish!
 812 2010-12-20 03:14:42 <achasen> segfault is happening in     SetThreadPriority(THREAD_PRIORITY_LOWEST); in my miner, any ideas?
 813 2010-12-20 03:14:43 <epicurus> if you are defining the number of coins and the rate of creation, it seems fairly pointless to me to engage in some sort of parallel computing operation. just create your damn coins.
 814 2010-12-20 03:14:49 <Kiba> and achasenneeds help
 815 2010-12-20 03:14:58 <Kiba> epicurus: and go away.
 816 2010-12-20 03:15:06 <Kiba> and do your own thing
 817 2010-12-20 03:15:07 <epicurus> Kiba,  it's no crying. you're just a bitch who can't tolerate any criticism of your jesus.
 818 2010-12-20 03:15:08 <Kiba> prove us wrong
 819 2010-12-20 03:15:22 <[Noodles]> and how to distribute those coins? who owns them?
 820 2010-12-20 03:15:23 <Kiba> epicurus: no, I am telling you to compete on the market
 821 2010-12-20 03:15:26 <achasen> or around there
 822 2010-12-20 03:15:32 <Kiba> instead of endlessly sending words that DOES NOTHING
 823 2010-12-20 03:15:34 <epicurus> you're an annoying prick.
 824 2010-12-20 03:15:46 <MT`AwAy> [Noodles]: in epicurus system, people create coins, and trust in the coin creator define the coin value
 825 2010-12-20 03:15:47 <achasen> this sounds like a conversation that should be happening in general bitcoin channel
 826 2010-12-20 03:15:48 <da2ce7> we will reside in the world that uses bitcoin, you can live in the world that dosn't, Just our world is heathy and growing.
 827 2010-12-20 03:15:52 <Kiba> prove it or GTFO
 828 2010-12-20 03:15:59 <Kiba> achasen: THIS is the general bitcoin channel
 829 2010-12-20 03:16:01 <MT`AwAy> (if I understood well)
 830 2010-12-20 03:16:04 <epicurus> MT no, the market still determines the price
 831 2010-12-20 03:16:22 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: so you'd have one market per coin emitter ?
 832 2010-12-20 03:16:31 <Kiba> if you can prove that your system can function, maybe we will actulaly change our mind?
 833 2010-12-20 03:16:46 <achasen> heh, no #bitcoin, right... but there is -discussion
 834 2010-12-20 03:16:49 <sgornick> kiba: I think acahasen meant the #bitcoin-discussioin channel?
 835 2010-12-20 03:16:58 <epicurus> MT no, values of things are all relative. if everyone maintains their balance of trade, they won't want to overpay, and sellers won't want to undercharge
 836 2010-12-20 03:16:58 <Kiba> sgornick: but nobody goes there.
 837 2010-12-20 03:17:13 <Kiba> values is determined by marginal utility.
 838 2010-12-20 03:17:25 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the main problem I see there is how to avoid common frauds to happen (identity thieves, people assuming they'll be able to pay for a service but can't, etc)
 839 2010-12-20 03:17:26 <epicurus> Kiba,  function is relative. the system we have now functions, poorly.
 840 2010-12-20 03:17:48 <Kiba> epicurus: yes, and I don't understand what's the problem you're trying to solve.
 841 2010-12-20 03:17:57 <doublec> Kiba, plenty of discussion goes on in #bitcoin-discussion
 842 2010-12-20 03:18:06 <theymos> In a 4-8 years block subsidy won't even be a big factor.
 843 2010-12-20 03:18:59 <Kiba> I happily concede ground, but not to poorly reasoned arguments.
 844 2010-12-20 03:19:43 <Kiba> and sometime if you can't convince me by words, you convince me by code.
 845 2010-12-20 03:20:10 <Kiba> so code or GTFO
 846 2010-12-20 03:20:19 <epicurus> MT there are many problems. i am simply trying to proceed from the ideal of an economy not to be limited by centralized control of the money supply... so that the productive power of people is not limited. i want to maximize innovation and remove the limits of centralized control... the monetary unit is not our goal, our goal is an improved standard of living
 847 2010-12-20 03:20:41 <Kiba> epicurus: everyone is interested in a higher standard of living
 848 2010-12-20 03:20:50 <Kiba> in this channel, I hope.
 849 2010-12-20 03:20:52 <epicurus> i know that
 850 2010-12-20 03:20:57 <epicurus> that's why i proceed from that
 851 2010-12-20 03:21:03 <Kiba> then go code.
 852 2010-12-20 03:21:07 <Kiba> clearly words isn't working.
 853 2010-12-20 03:21:18 <epicurus> i'm sorry you don't want to discuss it.
 854 2010-12-20 03:21:28 <epicurus> that's your problem.
 855 2010-12-20 03:21:29 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|fallacy #1 : a limited money supply makes ppl less productive
 856 2010-12-20 03:21:32 <Kiba> because I already gave up on that discussion.
 857 2010-12-20 03:21:44 <epicurus> Kiba,  then shut the fuck up and stop telling me what i should do
 858 2010-12-20 03:21:49 <epicurus> kthx
 859 2010-12-20 03:22:08 <Kiba> epicurus: than shut the fuck up and code.
 860 2010-12-20 03:22:11 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: my current belief is that it is impossible to have a perfectly fair system, and for now the most fair system I found is bitcoin. If you can solve all the issues (fraud, fairness, etc) and document it, I'll be happy to adopt it
 861 2010-12-20 03:22:48 <epicurus> i'm not saying bitcoin must fail or that it shouldn't exist
 862 2010-12-20 03:23:05 <epicurus> i think it's a step in the right direction
 863 2010-12-20 03:23:18 <da2ce7> epicurus, your goals are mutualy exclucive with ours... I don't belve that bitcoin is the right avenue for you... However i cannot think of any rational way that your goals can be accheived.
 864 2010-12-20 03:23:28 <[Noodles]> you just sayin' "in a perfect world...things might be better"
 865 2010-12-20 03:23:33 <epicurus> i don't criticize the effort. i'm just trying to figure out how it can evolve..
 866 2010-12-20 03:23:49 <Kiba> epicurus: clearly we are evolving away from what you like.
 867 2010-12-20 03:23:52 <epicurus> [Noodles], no, i'm trying to understand what it is and how it can evolve.
 868 2010-12-20 03:24:06 <[Noodles]> the world isnt perfect, people are greedy, if you cant handle that, you will fail
 869 2010-12-20 03:24:06 <Kiba> if you wish to have influence on monentary evolution, you will do something about it.
 870 2010-12-20 03:24:06 <epicurus> Kiba,  maybe. maybe not.
 871 2010-12-20 03:24:20 <Kiba> or sit back and shut the fuck up.
 872 2010-12-20 03:24:20 <epicurus> i am doing something about it
 873 2010-12-20 03:24:31 <epicurus> damn, you're a jerk
 874 2010-12-20 03:24:33 <epicurus> why?
 875 2010-12-20 03:24:48 <da2ce7> but don't use violence to get to your goals, otherwise we will attack you hard, in defence.
 876 2010-12-20 03:24:48 <epicurus> seriously, you're an intolerable asshole.
 877 2010-12-20 03:24:52 <joe_1> Is the paying people for CPU the only thing you see that decreases production, or is it other things as well?
 878 2010-12-20 03:24:58 <x6763> epicurus: if you want to understand bitcoin, there's a whitepaper written by satoshi, and there's a couple wikis with info about it...if you want to understand the economics of it all, then i recommend heading to #mises and mises.org
 879 2010-12-20 03:24:59 <Kiba> epicurus: perhaps I am.
 880 2010-12-20 03:25:10 <Kiba> but I am telling you how to accomplish your goal. And all you do is sit here.
 881 2010-12-20 03:25:36 <epicurus> x6763,  so theres articles about it at mises.org. or bitcoin itself is based on austrian theory?
 882 2010-12-20 03:25:50 <x6763> i don't know what's satoshi's economic influences are
 883 2010-12-20 03:25:58 <Kiba> we don't know if it is based on Austrian theory
 884 2010-12-20 03:26:08 <epicurus> i've looked at the wiki on the official site
 885 2010-12-20 03:26:11 <Kiba> we don't know what Satoshi knows. He is mysterious.
 886 2010-12-20 03:26:15 <epicurus> not saying i understand it though
 887 2010-12-20 03:26:40 <epicurus> Kiba,  you're sounding like a cultist again
 888 2010-12-20 03:26:42 <x6763> but austrian economic theory has refuted much of mainstream economic theory
 889 2010-12-20 03:26:49 <Kiba> epicurus: that's your subjective judgement.
 890 2010-12-20 03:26:52 <Kiba> but it's the truth.
 891 2010-12-20 03:26:55 <Kiba> nobodys know who Satoshi is.
 892 2010-12-20 03:27:10 <epicurus> x6763,  most of austrian theory has been around longer than so called modern mainstream theory
 893 2010-12-20 03:27:45 <epicurus> but you probably knew that
 894 2010-12-20 03:28:23 <Kiba> blah, perhaps I was rude to epicurus.
 895 2010-12-20 03:28:51 <Kiba> get up so worked up for nothing.
 896 2010-12-20 03:29:00 <epicurus> yeah
 897 2010-12-20 03:29:06 <x6763> much of modern mainstream economic theory is based on old mercantilist and protectionist ideas
 898 2010-12-20 03:29:09 <epicurus> i was just trying to have a friendly discussion
 899 2010-12-20 03:29:21 <Kiba> oh I was trying to.
 900 2010-12-20 03:29:26 <Kiba> but tribalism get the better of me.
 901 2010-12-20 03:29:28 <Juan> away!~x@190.193.194.162|and mercantilism was refuted by classical liberals way before 'austrians' were even born.
 902 2010-12-20 03:29:42 <Kiba> I still don't understand it though.
 903 2010-12-20 03:29:58 <x6763> yet the ideas are still taught in classrooms today as though they are economic fact
 904 2010-12-20 03:30:07 <epicurus> Kiba,  well just relax, i'm not here to tear down bitcoin, i am here to learn from those who understand it better than i do
 905 2010-12-20 03:30:22 <epicurus> but i have my own ideas about what the goals of a new monetary system might be
 906 2010-12-20 03:30:22 <Kiba> and I was trying to understand what you think is wrong bitcoin.
 907 2010-12-20 03:30:33 <Kiba> with bitcoin
 908 2010-12-20 03:30:50 <Kiba> yes, and you should implement it and see if it work.
 909 2010-12-20 03:31:11 <epicurus> basically my problem with it is that the distribution of bitcoins is going to those who already control capital and the internet
 910 2010-12-20 03:31:21 <epicurus> so it's another top-down system
 911 2010-12-20 03:31:30 <Kiba> some people are going to be richer than others
 912 2010-12-20 03:31:34 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: bitcoin's goals do not include fairness
 913 2010-12-20 03:31:38 <Kiba> and they going to control more stuff than other people.
 914 2010-12-20 03:31:43 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: what is fairness?
 915 2010-12-20 03:31:47 <x6763> whatever "fairness" means
 916 2010-12-20 03:31:49 <epicurus> MT ok, i understand
 917 2010-12-20 03:31:49 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: you tell me?
 918 2010-12-20 03:31:50 <slush_cz> bc,poolstats
 919 2010-12-20 03:32:31 <doublec> ;;bc,stat
 920 2010-12-20 03:32:31 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
 921 2010-12-20 03:32:35 <doublec> ;;bc,stats
 922 2010-12-20 03:32:37 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98489 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 294 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 17 hours, 51 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14342.39455009
 923 2010-12-20 03:32:42 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 924 2010-12-20 03:32:48 <MT`AwAy> anyway, bitcoin is about unexpensive secure anonymous transactions within shorter time frame
 925 2010-12-20 03:33:10 <MT`AwAy> (shorter than existing money transfers which can take days)
 926 2010-12-20 03:33:12 <epicurus> MT so, unfortunately, if bitcoin is not designed to work for everyone... that is, to be unbiased.... i'm afraid it's going to face a lot of resistance or reluctance
 927 2010-12-20 03:33:13 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: Do you have a preferred or recommended number of retries for the latest CPU miner client?
 928 2010-12-20 03:33:16 darrob has joined
 929 2010-12-20 03:33:22 <joe_1> it sounds like there's a gray line between the monetary system itself and the governments that might control people who use it. It is possible that any monetary system could end up with few people controlling most of it, simply by power and influence in the empirical world, and through no fault of the money system. Bitcoin itself is not tending toward centralized control; in fact, most
 930 2010-12-20 03:33:22 <joe_1> miners probably move on their bitcoins for dollars every month.
 931 2010-12-20 03:33:29 <epicurus> MT but for those who choose to use it, it is what it is
 932 2010-12-20 03:33:44 <Kiba> epicurus: lot of people don't think bitcoin don't work for a whole lot of reasons
 933 2010-12-20 03:33:55 <Kiba> don't think bitcoin will work
 934 2010-12-20 03:34:16 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: I did not tested jgarzik's patch yet
 935 2010-12-20 03:34:19 <Kiba> there some category, yes...like fear of deflationary spiral
 936 2010-12-20 03:34:24 <Kiba> environmental waste
 937 2010-12-20 03:34:26 <achasen> there is some value in the system itself (many people will disagree)
 938 2010-12-20 03:34:26 <Kiba> and so on.
 939 2010-12-20 03:34:36 <achasen> but think about the cost of that dollar in your pocket
 940 2010-12-20 03:34:41 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Depends on how it is implemented. If there is sleep between tries, let it set to infinite tries
 941 2010-12-20 03:34:44 <ne0futur> epicurus: you should use the tab key :p try MT + tab
 942 2010-12-20 03:34:52 <achasen> it costs $0.02/year to maintain that dollar
 943 2010-12-20 03:34:58 <slush_cz> ;;bc,poolstats
 944 2010-12-20 03:34:58 <gribble> {"active_workers": 54, "hashes_ps": 4263487304, "shares": 9076, "round_started": "2010-12-20 01:00:47"}
 945 2010-12-20 03:34:58 <ne0futur> you wont highlight MT`AwAy saying MT
 946 2010-12-20 03:34:59 <Kiba> only time will tell us who is actually right
 947 2010-12-20 03:35:09 <DerrikeG> slush_cz: That's my concern, I don't know the sleep time / if there is one at all. :X
 948 2010-12-20 03:35:10 Cdh has quit (2!~cdh@p57B44CB1.dip.t-dialin.net|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 949 2010-12-20 03:35:11 <achasen> the people who "create" the system (the miners) should be compensated
 950 2010-12-20 03:35:13 <slush_cz> !newpool
 951 2010-12-20 03:35:13 <Kiba> perhaps that will force economists to rethink their monentary theory
 952 2010-12-20 03:35:19 <slush_cz> nanotube: thanks :)
 953 2010-12-20 03:35:21 <achasen> and every addition block they create makes a more secure system
 954 2010-12-20 03:35:29 <Kiba> there's no such thing as a free lunch
 955 2010-12-20 03:35:33 <Kiba> even for miners
 956 2010-12-20 03:35:41 <achasen> Kiba: knowing a few economists, it is not unlikely
 957 2010-12-20 03:35:47 <slush_cz> DerrikeG: Try it :) In the worst scenario you will flood the server
 958 2010-12-20 03:35:48 <[Noodles]> those that invested the most earlier generate the more coins, but they also take the bigger risks, you don't risk anything buy just using bitcoin, if you wanna help, contribute some computing-resources, if you wanna make profit, you will need to invest, either in hard- and software+energy+time, or with your fiat cash in coins, investment required, bitcoin is not money-for-nothing
 959 2010-12-20 03:35:48 <achasen> err
 960 2010-12-20 03:35:52 <achasen> s/unlikely/likely
 961 2010-12-20 03:36:00 <epicurus> ne0futur, i am using tab. this stupid xchat isn't doing it right on MT's nick
 962 2010-12-20 03:36:14 <ne0futur> yes the backquote is pretty much annoying :p
 963 2010-12-20 03:36:23 <Kiba> achasen: unlikely or likely
 964 2010-12-20 03:36:25 <epicurus> even when i try it with that
 965 2010-12-20 03:36:33 <DerrikeG> I'm just gonna roll with ten, there isn't an infinite option.
 966 2010-12-20 03:36:34 <epicurus> MT`AwAy,
 967 2010-12-20 03:36:43 * ne0futur can provide 24/24 IRC chat on a server ( ssh/screen/irssi ) for cheap
 968 2010-12-20 03:36:43 <epicurus> there we go, i have to do the A as well
 969 2010-12-20 03:36:47 <Kiba> There is no such thing as free lunch...
 970 2010-12-20 03:36:59 <DerrikeG> There is if you're a professional moocher.
 971 2010-12-20 03:37:12 <Kiba> who poularize the phrase there is no such thing as free lunch?
 972 2010-12-20 03:37:18 <Kiba> hint: scfi writer
 973 2010-12-20 03:37:24 <DerrikeG> Or have a small stomach the size of all the free samples in the market.
 974 2010-12-20 03:37:50 <ne0futur> "there is no such thing as free lunch" could mean "there is no such thing as real friends or christians" . . .
 975 2010-12-20 03:37:57 <epicurus> joe_1,  the natural result of a private bank issued currency sanctioned by a sovereign government dependent on that banking cartel is that the cartel soon owns the government
 976 2010-12-20 03:38:11 <ne0futur> in many countries there is free lunch
 977 2010-12-20 03:38:25 Sherpa has joined
 978 2010-12-20 03:38:27 <Sherpa> #BitCoinX :D
 979 2010-12-20 03:38:27 <DerrikeG> There's no such lunch as a free one.
 980 2010-12-20 03:38:34 <epicurus> the government gets a magic unlimited checkbook and the banksters get the citizens chained to a yoke of taxation for life
 981 2010-12-20 03:38:38 <MT`AwAy> Sherpa: spammer
 982 2010-12-20 03:38:45 <Sherpa> Lies
 983 2010-12-20 03:38:48 <Kiba> SPAMS :D
 984 2010-12-20 03:38:48 <epicurus> it's sort of a feudalism-fascism
 985 2010-12-20 03:39:02 <Kiba> spams are tasty meat
 986 2010-12-20 03:39:22 <DerrikeG> epicurus: I get it, you don't like the government. Eat your money and don't pay your taxes.
 987 2010-12-20 03:39:43 <epicurus> what?
 988 2010-12-20 03:39:58 <Kiba> all governments are simply organized form of plunder
 989 2010-12-20 03:40:08 <DerrikeG> Rape, and murder.
 990 2010-12-20 03:40:24 <Kiba> even democractic one
 991 2010-12-20 03:40:33 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: you should develop your ideas and write a paper about it to make it known to people
 992 2010-12-20 03:41:04 <epicurus> [Noodles],  people keep talking about the "risk" of generating bitcoins. what kind of risk?
 993 2010-12-20 03:41:16 <Kiba> the risk is in adopting bitcoins
 994 2010-12-20 03:41:20 <Kiba> not generating it
 995 2010-12-20 03:41:23 <[Noodles]> no risk of generating, risk of investment
 996 2010-12-20 03:41:28 <epicurus> MT`AwAy,  ya think?
 997 2010-12-20 03:41:32 <Kiba> if we adopt it but nobody use it, we wasted money
 998 2010-12-20 03:41:37 <[Noodles]> to generate, it needs energy you know
 999 2010-12-20 03:41:56 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: at least it would allow me, and everyone else, to know what your idea is exactly without having to ask zillion of questions
1000 2010-12-20 03:41:57 <epicurus> [Noodles],  tell me, what is the cost of producing one bitcoin?
1001 2010-12-20 03:42:01 <Kiba> bitcoin mining is a form of spectulation
1002 2010-12-20 03:42:04 <[Noodles]> need by hardware that wants to be payed too
1003 2010-12-20 03:42:08 <ne0futur> to me the risk of investing ( I already invested more than 500 $ to buy btc ) is that the big miners can crush the market easily and ruin my invetment
1004 2010-12-20 03:42:09 <Kiba> and spectulation are risky
1005 2010-12-20 03:42:17 <utsl> What it really needs is some country backing it
1006 2010-12-20 03:42:20 <[Noodles]> epicurus : that depends on your costs
1007 2010-12-20 03:42:28 <utsl> then it can get a "real" currency code
1008 2010-12-20 03:42:29 <[Noodles]> what hardware you use
1009 2010-12-20 03:42:31 <ne0futur> the selling volume on mtgox and 20 times bigger than the buying volume
1010 2010-12-20 03:42:37 <[Noodles]> what your energy-cost is
1011 2010-12-20 03:42:44 <[Noodles]> i dont know what it costs you
1012 2010-12-20 03:42:53 <Kiba> ne0futur: there are 7200 bitcoins each day
1013 2010-12-20 03:42:54 <[Noodles]> i just know what it costs me
1014 2010-12-20 03:42:56 <utsl> I mean, has anyone approached the government of Bhutan to check they are ok with the BTC code?  :)
1015 2010-12-20 03:42:58 <ne0futur> until now the big miners / early guys are cautious but . . .
1016 2010-12-20 03:43:01 <epicurus> [Noodles],  so basically the question is who can generate bitcoins most cost effectively
1017 2010-12-20 03:43:06 maqr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1018 2010-12-20 03:43:21 <epicurus> that sort of economy of scale favors big capital
1019 2010-12-20 03:43:24 <Kiba> the miners are dependent on the growth of the bitcoin economy
1020 2010-12-20 03:43:34 <epicurus> the bigger your operation the lower your per unit cost
1021 2010-12-20 03:43:38 <ne0futur> I m still searching an "early miner" having many btc , wanting real dollars , and not wanting to crush the market
1022 2010-12-20 03:43:39 <[Noodles]> no, thats only the questiopn, IF YOU DECIDE to generate coins
1023 2010-12-20 03:43:40 <Kiba> to combat growing capital investment
1024 2010-12-20 03:43:45 <Kiba> of their competitors
1025 2010-12-20 03:43:48 <epicurus> so this is not at all meant to be fair, it is entirely a capitalist enterprise
1026 2010-12-20 03:43:51 <[Noodles]> you can also decide to BUY coins
1027 2010-12-20 03:43:53 <Kiba> collectively, they want price of bitcoin to go up
1028 2010-12-20 03:43:58 <[Noodles]> if that's cheaper
1029 2010-12-20 03:44:01 <[Noodles]> do it
1030 2010-12-20 03:44:04 <Kiba> epicurus: most bitcoiners ARE anarcho-capitalists
1031 2010-12-20 03:44:08 <ne0futur> noagendamarket: thats what I do
1032 2010-12-20 03:44:16 <joe_1> epicurus i agree the government ability to sell government paper to the bank for dollars is unsettling. I did the rough calculations on the dollar a couple months ago, and right now the dollar is backed 20% by gold and 80% by government paper. In other words the government has expanded the money supply 5x out of thin air. We are nearing the limits of safety but right now I think the
1033 2010-12-20 03:44:17 <joe_1> government is strong enough to back its paper.
1034 2010-12-20 03:44:18 <ne0futur> oups was for [Noodles]
1035 2010-12-20 03:44:26 <Kiba> or libettarians
1036 2010-12-20 03:44:34 <[Noodles]> let others produce coins cheaper than you could and BUY them
1037 2010-12-20 03:44:45 <[Noodles]> it's as easy as that
1038 2010-12-20 03:44:51 <theymos> I bet most people will forget about generating once people like ArtForz make generating unprofitable for everyone.
1039 2010-12-20 03:44:54 <[Noodles]> simple math
1040 2010-12-20 03:45:32 <[Noodles]> if i can't püroduce efficient anymore (in a few months), i will stop generating
1041 2010-12-20 03:45:40 Juan has left (away!~x@190.193.194.162|)
1042 2010-12-20 03:45:52 <[Noodles]> but wont stop using coins, buying, selling them
1043 2010-12-20 03:45:52 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I stopped generating months ago
1044 2010-12-20 03:46:00 <ne0futur> epicurus: forget about mining, and try to view bitcoins as an ethical and faith investment / choice
1045 2010-12-20 03:46:13 <theymos> I just turned off my Pentium D. I've been generating for almost a year.
1046 2010-12-20 03:46:17 <Kiba> epicurus is real big on capital concentraction
1047 2010-12-20 03:46:19 <epicurus> joe_1,  well its really backed by the savings of anyone holding dollars... of course the US government is the only government with the luxury of settling its debts and international trade in its own currency. all others must live within their means
1048 2010-12-20 03:46:33 <Kiba> I don't know why epicurus is intensely focused on that
1049 2010-12-20 03:46:44 <Kiba> but it seem that epicurus doesn't hate rich people? he didn't deny or confirm.
1050 2010-12-20 03:46:51 <epicurus> well, it's sort of off topic
1051 2010-12-20 03:47:34 <epicurus> [Noodles],  how much is a bitcoin on the open market right now?
1052 2010-12-20 03:47:47 <Kiba> bitcoincharts.com
1053 2010-12-20 03:47:50 <utsl> you know, in Estonia, internet connection is considered a human right, and they have electronic citizens-initiated forced parliamentary proceedings
1054 2010-12-20 03:47:54 <epicurus> ok
1055 2010-12-20 03:47:55 <tcatm> ;;bc,markets
1056 2010-12-20 03:47:56 <gribble> bcmLRUSD: 0.14 (100 BTC) 0.22/0.26 | bcmPPUSD: 0.25 (500 BTC) 0.2451/0.28 | bcmPXGAU: 0.0061 (300 BTC) 0.0046/0.0062 | btcexJPY: 15.5018 (9 BTC) None/None | btcexRUB: 8.8031 (1.48 BTC) None/None | btcexWMR: 6.8 (104.97 BTC) None/None | mtgoxUSD: 0.24 (141.62 BTC) 0.24/0.2425
1057 2010-12-20 03:48:07 <Kiba> utsl: LOL. Human right. Pathetic.
1058 2010-12-20 03:48:11 <utsl> so, you can get 10% of the country to digitally sign a proposal and force their parliament to be a debate
1059 2010-12-20 03:48:22 <theymos> utsl: That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Maybe I consider candy to be a human right.
1060 2010-12-20 03:48:26 <[Noodles]> 24cents :o)
1061 2010-12-20 03:48:28 <epicurus> 24 cents?
1062 2010-12-20 03:48:46 <epicurus> but only 15 yen?
1063 2010-12-20 03:49:03 <tcatm> btcex
1064 2010-12-20 03:49:08 <tcatm> is not used very much..
1065 2010-12-20 03:49:08 <utsl> theymos: availability of adequate nutrition often is considered a right
1066 2010-12-20 03:49:17 <Kiba> shelter
1067 2010-12-20 03:49:18 <[Noodles]> well, it depends on where you get it
1068 2010-12-20 03:49:21 <MT`AwAy> there's like 10 ppl using bitcoin in Japan
1069 2010-12-20 03:49:21 <Kiba> is a human right!
1070 2010-12-20 03:49:23 <[Noodles]> i could send you one for free
1071 2010-12-20 03:49:41 <epicurus> so should i convert my dollars to yen and then buy bitcoins?
1072 2010-12-20 03:49:47 <Kiba> games and entertainment is a human right!
1073 2010-12-20 03:49:57 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: only if you wish to have bitcoins at the yen exchange rate
1074 2010-12-20 03:49:58 <Kiba> why would you want to do that?
1075 2010-12-20 03:49:58 <epicurus> err actually the revers
1076 2010-12-20 03:50:12 <da2ce7> epicurus, yeah, but the market isn't so large, so you won't be able to buy somany coins.
1077 2010-12-20 03:50:15 <MT`AwAy> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml <-
1078 2010-12-20 03:50:27 * tcatm used to make some profits from EUR/USD spread using different exchanges. Might work with YEN, too.
1079 2010-12-20 03:50:56 <epicurus> tcatm,  converting and then buying bitcoins?
1080 2010-12-20 03:51:15 <utsl> anyway, look the debating of rights vs individual responsibility aside, any single government could add certainty to the bitcoin future with a simple passage of a law
1081 2010-12-20 03:51:38 <tcatm> Selling 1000 BTC at bitcoinexchange.com, then buying 1100 BTC on mtgox. Price allowed this about once a week.
1082 2010-12-20 03:51:50 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1083 2010-12-20 03:51:51 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: you live near tokyo?
1084 2010-12-20 03:51:56 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: yup
1085 2010-12-20 03:51:59 <DerrikeG> jgarzik: I posted a bunch of stuff about the latest CPUminer.
1086 2010-12-20 03:52:02 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I'm the green node near tokyo :p
1087 2010-12-20 03:52:14 <[Noodles]> lol
1088 2010-12-20 03:52:20 <joe_1> will next week's north/south korea nuclear exchange fallout reach japan?
1089 2010-12-20 03:52:23 <Kiba> I wish I can live in Tokyo too!
1090 2010-12-20 03:52:27 <utsl> the bogus BTC symbol might be replaced with EEB or something, but it would be valid and hence you'd be able to trade on it
1091 2010-12-20 03:52:51 <doublec> joe_1, south korea doesn't have nukes does it? So 'exchange' might be the wrong word.
1092 2010-12-20 03:52:52 <epicurus> MT`AwAy, so you want me to write a paper not because you likes what i was saying, but so you can figure out wtf i am talking about. not encouraging.
1093 2010-12-20 03:52:54 Cdh has joined
1094 2010-12-20 03:52:59 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: if you don't mind sleeping on a couch, it can be easily done
1095 2010-12-20 03:53:09 <Kiba> hmm
1096 2010-12-20 03:53:12 <Kiba> I don't know Japanese
1097 2010-12-20 03:53:16 <Kiba> how can I get around?
1098 2010-12-20 03:53:16 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: I think it'll help me and everyone else understanding your idea
1099 2010-12-20 03:53:19 <tcatm> bitcoin couchsurfing? :)
1100 2010-12-20 03:53:24 <utsl> but there are so many official countries that could do this.  think of all the tax haven countries like Seychelles or Gibraltar
1101 2010-12-20 03:53:24 <MT`AwAy> I personally have /no/ economy background
1102 2010-12-20 03:53:29 <Kiba> when I earn enough money
1103 2010-12-20 03:53:36 <Kiba> I am going to move to Tokyo!
1104 2010-12-20 03:53:38 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: just tell me when you arrive, I'll pick you up at the airport
1105 2010-12-20 03:53:39 <Kiba> just for fun :D
1106 2010-12-20 03:53:50 <epicurus> MT`AwAy, where are you from?
1107 2010-12-20 03:53:59 <Kiba> hopefully, I won't get touched by TSA
1108 2010-12-20 03:54:14 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: I currently live in Tokyo, Japan, but I was born in France and I have french citizenship (among others)
1109 2010-12-20 03:54:17 <da2ce7> kiba, you normaly have to pay for that type of service.
1110 2010-12-20 03:54:38 <Kiba> In Japan?
1111 2010-12-20 03:54:40 <Kiba> Or USA?
1112 2010-12-20 03:54:58 <da2ce7> TSA, better than some.
1113 2010-12-20 03:55:21 <Kiba> I am Asian
1114 2010-12-20 03:55:25 <Kiba> maybe I'll blend in
1115 2010-12-20 03:55:42 <tcatm> MT`AwAy: how accurate is the bitcoin map?
1116 2010-12-20 03:55:48 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: Such a great job with the map. I'm looking on it again and again
1117 2010-12-20 03:55:50 <Kiba> not very accurate
1118 2010-12-20 03:55:54 <MT`AwAy> tcatm: http://www.maxmind.com/app/faq#accurate
1119 2010-12-20 03:56:01 <Slix`> Rawr.
1120 2010-12-20 03:56:21 <Kiba> I wonder if my desktop PC will get through
1121 2010-12-20 03:56:22 <tcatm> There might be two bitcoin users very close to me.
1122 2010-12-20 03:56:26 <epicurus> is that really all the bitcoin nodes in the world?
1123 2010-12-20 03:56:33 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: it's usually not a problem
1124 2010-12-20 03:56:36 <Kiba> ALL OVER THE WORLD
1125 2010-12-20 03:56:40 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: it's an attempt at it
1126 2010-12-20 03:56:45 <tcatm> And I'm living in a small village far from big cities :D
1127 2010-12-20 03:56:47 <donpdonp> whats the url for the 'bitcoin map'?
1128 2010-12-20 03:56:51 <Kiba> high speed internet BABY!
1129 2010-12-20 03:56:54 <Kiba> tcatm: in Japan?
1130 2010-12-20 03:56:54 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the green nodes are confirmed, the red nodes could be fakes if someone wanted to
1131 2010-12-20 03:57:00 <tcatm> No, germany.
1132 2010-12-20 03:57:01 <MT`AwAy> donpdonp: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml
1133 2010-12-20 03:57:02 <epicurus> not many
1134 2010-12-20 03:57:08 <da2ce7> when I go to europe I'm going to trade my bitcoins directly into euros, :) localy.
1135 2010-12-20 03:57:11 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: more than what we expected
1136 2010-12-20 03:57:18 <donpdonp> MT`AwAy: thx!
1137 2010-12-20 03:57:27 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: you think they have the same medicine that I need in their pharamcy?
1138 2010-12-20 03:57:30 achasen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1139 2010-12-20 03:57:39 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: what kind of medicine do you need?
1140 2010-12-20 03:57:39 <tcatm> Oh red nodes are down?
1141 2010-12-20 03:57:45 <joe_1> the map is broken
1142 2010-12-20 03:57:47 <ne0futur> I do thing internet access  could be a human right
1143 2010-12-20 03:57:50 <MT`AwAy> tcatm: red nodes are nodes I couldn't connect to
1144 2010-12-20 03:57:56 <Kiba> oh...my meds are called pentasa
1145 2010-12-20 03:57:58 <ne0futur> freedom of speech also meeans freedom to be heared
1146 2010-12-20 03:58:03 <tcatm> Probably nat :/
1147 2010-12-20 03:58:11 <MT`AwAy> tcatm: yep, but I can't tell
1148 2010-12-20 03:58:12 <joe_1> when i scroll with mouse wheel, 2 things happen the page goes up or down and the map zooms in or out
1149 2010-12-20 03:58:14 <ne0futur> and being able to access to free information
1150 2010-12-20 03:58:24 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I think you can easily find mesalamine in japan too
1151 2010-12-20 03:58:36 <tcatm> I was thinking of sending a few coins via IP and include a message so I could meet those bitcoin users.
1152 2010-12-20 03:58:41 Slix` has quit (Quit: { throw std::runtime_error("Client got bored of IRC."); })
1153 2010-12-20 03:59:09 <MT`AwAy> tcatm: yep, too bad ip transactions are disabled by default
1154 2010-12-20 03:59:11 <da2ce7> is there more bitcoiners in eurpoe or usa?
1155 2010-12-20 03:59:20 <tcatm> Oh are they?
1156 2010-12-20 03:59:21 <da2ce7> it is hard to tell by the map.
1157 2010-12-20 03:59:35 <tcatm> That must be a recent change then.
1158 2010-12-20 03:59:40 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: well, it's an interesting idea
1159 2010-12-20 03:59:44 <Kiba> to be in Japan for a few years
1160 2010-12-20 03:59:50 <Kiba> to live in a foreign country
1161 2010-12-20 04:00:07 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: as a matter of fact that's what I'm doing, and I find that quite interesting indeed ;)
1162 2010-12-20 04:00:10 <MT`AwAy> not easy, however
1163 2010-12-20 04:00:31 <joe_1> nevermind i was looking at the wrong map
1164 2010-12-20 04:01:03 <MT`AwAy> [12:57:26] <da2ce7> is there more bitcoiners in eurpoe or usa? <- I think there's more spread in Europe, since dots can be overlapping it's difficult to tell where there are more
1165 2010-12-20 04:01:23 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: in what country is pastecoin.com colocated?
1166 2010-12-20 04:01:30 <epicurus> ok, another lazy question, where are bitcoins traded?
1167 2010-12-20 04:01:49 <jgarzik> epicurus: http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
1168 2010-12-20 04:01:50 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik: France
1169 2010-12-20 04:01:58 <Kiba> how much does it cost to live there?
1170 2010-12-20 04:02:01 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: http://bitcoin.org/trade
1171 2010-12-20 04:02:17 <joe_1> how does it know where to put the dots? i know IP gives general location like city, but how does it get street?
1172 2010-12-20 04:02:27 <epicurus> k
1173 2010-12-20 04:02:29 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: it depends what you include in "live", but since salaries are usually higher in Japan, costs are usually too
1174 2010-12-20 04:02:39 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: it's based on GeoIP
1175 2010-12-20 04:02:45 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: if you live in the middle of nowhere, I heard it's quite cheap
1176 2010-12-20 04:02:49 <MT`AwAy> joe_1: if the street cannot be known, it just put somewhere near
1177 2010-12-20 04:03:01 <epicurus> i think i read somewhere it takes about a month of cpu time to produce one bitcoin with an average PC desktop today
1178 2010-12-20 04:03:02 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: yep, but you'll have troubles finding work
1179 2010-12-20 04:03:10 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: maybe two
1180 2010-12-20 04:03:22 <epicurus> two months
1181 2010-12-20 04:03:27 <MT`AwAy> ;;bc,calc 5000
1182 2010-12-20 04:03:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 17 weeks, 2 days, 19 hours, 26 minutes, and 57 seconds
1183 2010-12-20 04:03:44 <MT`AwAy> ok, more like 4 months then :D
1184 2010-12-20 04:03:49 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: because I am a forigner?
1185 2010-12-20 04:03:52 <Kiba> well
1186 2010-12-20 04:03:55 <epicurus> why increase the difficulty?
1187 2010-12-20 04:04:00 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: because if you go in the middle of nowhere there's nothing
1188 2010-12-20 04:04:04 <Kiba> I would be working using my business that I established in America
1189 2010-12-20 04:04:09 <Kiba> err
1190 2010-12-20 04:04:11 <Kiba> Online
1191 2010-12-20 04:04:11 <epicurus> if that many people want to generate, why not let them?
1192 2010-12-20 04:04:11 <Kiba> haha
1193 2010-12-20 04:04:16 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: to have blocks generated every ~10 minutes even as more cpu power is added
1194 2010-12-20 04:04:20 <Kiba> so my money basically come from the world
1195 2010-12-20 04:04:25 <Kiba> I just live in some place else
1196 2010-12-20 04:04:25 <MT`AwAy> ie, to limit currency generation rate
1197 2010-12-20 04:04:39 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: just like I'm doing then :D
1198 2010-12-20 04:04:52 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: if you go in the middle of nowhere you'll still have 100Mbps internet :p
1199 2010-12-20 04:04:56 <epicurus> MT`AwAy,  why ? for price stability? this seems entirely arbitrary,
1200 2010-12-20 04:05:05 <Kiba> exactly, MT`AwAy
1201 2010-12-20 04:05:13 BoBeR has joined
1202 2010-12-20 04:05:23 <Kiba> but the only problem is...
1203 2010-12-20 04:05:28 sgtstein has left ()
1204 2010-12-20 04:05:29 <Kiba> Japanese owners
1205 2010-12-20 04:05:34 <Kiba> who think I have no money
1206 2010-12-20 04:05:39 <Kiba> for rent and stuff
1207 2010-12-20 04:05:45 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: that's why you'd better have money before you come
1208 2010-12-20 04:06:23 <Kiba> so make money
1209 2010-12-20 04:06:25 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: they'll typically ask 6 months upfront from you (2~3 months warranty, 1 month fee, 1 month key fee, and pay one month in advance)
1210 2010-12-20 04:06:27 <epicurus> as time goes on there is less incentive to generate
1211 2010-12-20 04:06:39 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: but I can't speak Japanese!
1212 2010-12-20 04:06:44 <Kiba> better learn Japanese!
1213 2010-12-20 04:06:45 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: because more and more people will be doing it for free
1214 2010-12-20 04:06:53 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: yep, Japanese is important here
1215 2010-12-20 04:07:06 * Kiba 's plans for his life
1216 2010-12-20 04:07:10 <Kiba> Live in cheap places
1217 2010-12-20 04:07:18 <Kiba> somewhere fun
1218 2010-12-20 04:07:25 <da2ce7> or, kiba, make lots of money
1219 2010-12-20 04:07:34 <da2ce7> then you can live in an expencive place
1220 2010-12-20 04:07:45 <epicurus> MT`AwAy, the early adopters would have a huge advantage... one bitcoin would be worth millions of dollars
1221 2010-12-20 04:07:49 <Kiba> but I don't need a lot...
1222 2010-12-20 04:07:50 <MT`AwAy> my plan in life is in 5 years or so move to an empty temple in the mountains :D
1223 2010-12-20 04:07:52 <Sherpa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin:Community_portal
1224 2010-12-20 04:08:20 <Kiba> there's already incentive to generate. Transaction fees.
1225 2010-12-20 04:08:40 <Kiba> always
1226 2010-12-20 04:08:43 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the early adopters get an advantage, but it has a price too. Say, if we found a design fault in bitcoin it would lose instantly any value, and early adopters would be stuck with their investment worth nothing
1227 2010-12-20 04:09:02 <epicurus> the investment is tiny
1228 2010-12-20 04:09:12 <[Noodles]> how do you know?
1229 2010-12-20 04:09:20 <Kiba> some bitcoiners spend thousand of dollars
1230 2010-12-20 04:09:23 <Kiba> like ArtForz
1231 2010-12-20 04:09:31 <Kiba> others minicule amount of money
1232 2010-12-20 04:09:47 <Kiba> but there's also another investment: TIME.
1233 2010-12-20 04:09:55 <Kiba> it's an opportunity cost, essentially
1234 2010-12-20 04:10:05 <epicurus> because if it takes off, you will only need one bitcoin to become wealthy
1235 2010-12-20 04:10:13 <[Noodles]> IF
1236 2010-12-20 04:10:13 <epicurus> right now they cost 24 cents
1237 2010-12-20 04:10:18 <[Noodles]> but what else?
1238 2010-12-20 04:10:19 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: nobody knows that yet
1239 2010-12-20 04:10:22 <epicurus> 24 cents is not much investment
1240 2010-12-20 04:10:23 <utsl> yesterday, 25 :)
1241 2010-12-20 04:10:44 <[Noodles]> 17 a week ago
1242 2010-12-20 04:10:55 <MT`AwAy> 50 a month ago (or so)
1243 2010-12-20 04:10:56 <Kiba> it's called an exchange rate. Doesn't mean how much dollars you invest
1244 2010-12-20 04:10:57 <[Noodles]> been up to 50, down to 5
1245 2010-12-20 04:11:13 <[Noodles]> it's risky
1246 2010-12-20 04:11:25 <[Noodles]> but profits are possible
1247 2010-12-20 04:11:39 <epicurus> i say this because if the supply is limited to 21 million, the value of each one will be huge. of course this is also a flaw. dividing bitcoins into ridiculously small pieces is a hassle and inefficient way to trade
1248 2010-12-20 04:11:45 <utsl> it's essentially currency speculation though :)
1249 2010-12-20 04:11:50 <Kiba> epicurus: wrong.
1250 2010-12-20 04:11:50 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: the limit is not set in stone
1251 2010-12-20 04:11:53 <[Noodles]> either way, trading, or generating, you might win, or lose money
1252 2010-12-20 04:12:14 <Kiba> 0.00001 can be shifted to 1 microcoin or something
1253 2010-12-20 04:12:41 <MT`AwAy> epicurus: in 12 years we could decide to drop the limit and introduce new ways of adding bitcoins to the network, for example
1254 2010-12-20 04:12:45 <epicurus> it's going to have to be
1255 2010-12-20 04:12:53 <da2ce7> virtualy no volume in trade atm
1256 2010-12-20 04:13:04 <da2ce7> the market is seeing what will happen
1257 2010-12-20 04:13:06 <da2ce7> :P
1258 2010-12-20 04:14:00 <doublec> either that or all the trades are happening in the dark pool
1259 2010-12-20 04:14:22 <utsl> MT`AwAy: you said "we could decide"
1260 2010-12-20 04:14:22 <MT`AwAy> yesterday I traded directly with someone, sold a bunch of bitcoins
1261 2010-12-20 04:14:30 Azetab has joined
1262 2010-12-20 04:14:40 <MT`AwAy> utsl: decision can be reached only if 99.9% of the people agree
1263 2010-12-20 04:14:55 <utsl> indeed
1264 2010-12-20 04:15:32 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: I don't like that kinda of idea
1265 2010-12-20 04:15:44 <Kiba> I like being able to know that there will be only 21 million bitcoin ever
1266 2010-12-20 04:15:49 <Kiba> I likre predictability
1267 2010-12-20 04:15:58 <da2ce7> one of my favourate sites: http://mtgox.com/blog/
1268 2010-12-20 04:16:06 <utsl> I think any division or re-issuing would require a new currency code
1269 2010-12-20 04:16:14 * jgarzik wishes BitcoinGateway.com posted volume statistics
1270 2010-12-20 04:16:15 <utsl> er, not division
1271 2010-12-20 04:16:17 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: that's your opinion right now, maybe in 30 years you'll have a different one
1272 2010-12-20 04:16:24 <doublec> start a new chain, and provide an exchange rate between the two
1273 2010-12-20 04:16:24 <utsl> you could just make a new currency
1274 2010-12-20 04:16:27 <Kiba> true
1275 2010-12-20 04:16:29 <doublec> bitcoins vs newcoins
1276 2010-12-20 04:16:40 <Kiba> monentary freedom!
1277 2010-12-20 04:16:40 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: anyway let's not close the future too much ;p
1278 2010-12-20 04:16:42 <Kiba> free market!
1279 2010-12-20 04:16:58 <doublec> changing the limit dramatically affects the value of existing coins which is a bit harsh
1280 2010-12-20 04:17:04 <jgarzik> easy sites like BitcoinGateway.com makes it easier for average folks to obtain bitcoins.  exchanges take a bit of effort.
1281 2010-12-20 04:17:23 <nanotube> jgarzik: the 0.3.1 release... does that do anything new over what i pulled from git earlier today?
1282 2010-12-20 04:17:23 <doublec> pity bitcoingateway.com is US only
1283 2010-12-20 04:17:27 <Kiba> perhaps there wil lbe regular reforking
1284 2010-12-20 04:17:30 <jgarzik> nanotube: via fix
1285 2010-12-20 04:17:34 <MT`AwAy> doublec: maybe in 30 years we'll have new kinds of proof-of-work based on quantum computers or other stuff
1286 2010-12-20 04:18:03 <doublec> no doubt we will
1287 2010-12-20 04:18:07 <nanotube> jgarzik: ah ok...
1288 2010-12-20 04:18:52 <MT`AwAy> or finally find an economic system that makes sense
1289 2010-12-20 04:19:19 <doublec> or we'll be hunting for food in the deserted wastelands of our pillaged planet
1290 2010-12-20 04:19:26 <utsl> heh
1291 2010-12-20 04:19:40 <MT`AwAy> doublec: and killing each other like in "first of the north star" ?
1292 2010-12-20 04:19:41 <MT`AwAy> p
1293 2010-12-20 04:19:47 <doublec> hehe
1294 2010-12-20 04:20:23 <jgarzik> the singularity:  money will only cease to have meaning when can insert a heavy block of grey matter into a nanoscale assembler, and command a computer to build us an iPhone and a chicken dinner.
1295 2010-12-20 04:20:33 <MT`AwAy> anyway we don't know what will happen, and the consequences of what we are doing right now might be unexisting like they may change completly the world
1296 2010-12-20 04:20:50 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: what are the red vs green nodes on the map? and... how many total nodes do you have in the list?
1297 2010-12-20 04:20:58 <jgarzik> DerrikeG: replied
1298 2010-12-20 04:21:15 <jgarzik> nanotube: red is communist, green is environmentalist
1299 2010-12-20 04:21:16 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Bitcoin_world_map.png for colors
1300 2010-12-20 04:21:27 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha
1301 2010-12-20 04:21:32 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: see http://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_total-day.png for totals
1302 2010-12-20 04:21:49 <Kiba> apperantly
1303 2010-12-20 04:21:56 <Kiba> there are a few nodes in South Korea
1304 2010-12-20 04:21:57 <MT`AwAy> (ups and downs are when I stop seeing some parts of the bitcoin network)
1305 2010-12-20 04:22:01 lzd_hz has joined
1306 2010-12-20 04:22:08 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: ah cool. :)
1307 2010-12-20 04:22:10 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I would have expected more nodes in north korea
1308 2010-12-20 04:22:41 <Kiba> North Korea is almosted blacked out
1309 2010-12-20 04:22:46 <da2ce7> MT`AwAy, they use Tor.
1310 2010-12-20 04:22:54 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: ;)
1311 2010-12-20 04:23:54 <nanotube> jgarzik: what's the default delay between retries?
1312 2010-12-20 04:24:07 <DerrikeG> jgarzik: No luck. Additionally, 4way on that build  behaves like via does (doesn't work, quits instantly). C goes slower than usual. Cryptopp too. Cryptopp_asm32 clocks in where it used to, though.
1313 2010-12-20 04:25:23 * Kiba likes eating so much
1314 2010-12-20 04:25:31 * nanotube too heh
1315 2010-12-20 04:25:52 <Kiba> I can gobble up a 20 dollars pizza like no problem
1316 2010-12-20 04:26:03 <MT`AwAy> :D
1317 2010-12-20 04:26:04 <MT`AwAy> ok
1318 2010-12-20 04:26:07 <MT`AwAy> I'll order pizza
1319 2010-12-20 04:26:15 * MT`AwAy browses to http://www.dominos.jp/eng/
1320 2010-12-20 04:26:25 <Kiba> so they have pizza in Japan
1321 2010-12-20 04:26:41 <Azetab> how long does it take for your order to appear on the Mtgox order book?
1322 2010-12-20 04:26:43 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: mayonnaise pizza with chicken and stuff
1323 2010-12-20 04:26:48 <Kiba> WEIRD
1324 2010-12-20 04:26:55 <Azetab> cuz i just placed a buying order about half an hour ago and it still hasnt shown up
1325 2010-12-20 04:26:58 <nanotube> Azetab: it's instant...
1326 2010-12-20 04:27:05 <epicurus> mayonnaise pizza? sick
1327 2010-12-20 04:27:44 <MT`AwAy> it's not that bad when you get used to it
1328 2010-12-20 04:27:50 Granttt has joined
1329 2010-12-20 04:27:54 <Azetab> thats weird..
1330 2010-12-20 04:28:05 <Azetab> i dont see it in the depth of market table
1331 2010-12-20 04:28:07 <nanotube> maybe your order has been filled already?
1332 2010-12-20 04:28:18 <MT`AwAy> Azetab: check history?
1333 2010-12-20 04:28:35 <nanotube> or maybe it's so far away from the bid/ask spread that it's outside the window shown on the depth of market page?
1334 2010-12-20 04:29:00 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1335 2010-12-20 04:29:33 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1336 2010-12-20 04:29:58 <Azetab> Oh ic what happened, my order combined with another order in that bid price and they appeared as one order
1337 2010-12-20 04:30:05 <nanotube> yea it does that...
1338 2010-12-20 04:31:20 darrob has joined
1339 2010-12-20 04:32:01 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1340 2010-12-20 04:32:44 <nanotube> heh, someone placed an order for 100k bitcoins at 0.0000 usd (probably a 1 in there somewhere after)
1341 2010-12-20 04:32:47 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1342 2010-12-20 04:33:16 <epicurus> how many total bitcoins exist today?
1343 2010-12-20 04:33:28 <Kiba> about 4 millions
1344 2010-12-20 04:33:41 <epicurus> so market cap is about 1 million
1345 2010-12-20 04:33:52 <tcatm> more like 5 millions ;)
1346 2010-12-20 04:34:14 <theymos> ;;bc,totalbc
1347 2010-12-20 04:34:15 <gribble> 4924800.00000000
1348 2010-12-20 04:34:57 <[Noodles]> some of those are lost in space though
1349 2010-12-20 04:35:09 <epicurus> why
1350 2010-12-20 04:35:20 <[Noodles]> because someone deleted his wallet
1351 2010-12-20 04:35:35 <tcatm> I have a wallet with 9000 lost BTC.
1352 2010-12-20 04:35:37 <Kiba> lost in the vault forever
1353 2010-12-20 04:35:38 <[Noodles]> or send coins to a valid, but non-existent address
1354 2010-12-20 04:35:42 <epicurus> or satoshi has a big wallet somewhere
1355 2010-12-20 04:35:52 <nanotube> tcatm: zomg no backups?
1356 2010-12-20 04:35:55 <Kiba> satoshi indeed have a big wallet
1357 2010-12-20 04:35:58 <Kiba> but he never spent it
1358 2010-12-20 04:36:07 <[Noodles]> or that, we wont ever know what happened to those coins
1359 2010-12-20 04:36:12 <epicurus> Kiba,  how many?
1360 2010-12-20 04:36:19 <doublec> epicurus, you look through the block explorer and see what of the early generations are unspent
1361 2010-12-20 04:36:21 <Kiba> I heard, millions
1362 2010-12-20 04:36:37 <tcatm> nanotube: there once was someone on the forums who had lost his coins... I asked him to send me the wallet so I could see if it was possible to recover them somehow...
1363 2010-12-20 04:36:51 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: that's probably BS
1364 2010-12-20 04:36:55 <[Noodles]> does it matter how many? as long as i'v got some, i don't care how much others have
1365 2010-12-20 04:37:11 <MT`AwAy> send coins to 1111111111111111111114oLvT2  to have them lost forever
1366 2010-12-20 04:37:23 <epicurus> wouldn't satoshi have to generate his own coins anyway?
1367 2010-12-20 04:37:42 <[Noodles]> no, send them to my, i promise i'll never spend them
1368 2010-12-20 04:37:43 <tcatm> Turned out he sent a few to a new address any he only had a 9000 BTC TX in his wallet. Then he restored a backup and lost the change TX privkey.
1369 2010-12-20 04:37:43 <MT`AwAy> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1111111111111111111114oLvT2 <- already 0.02 btc lost there
1370 2010-12-20 04:37:50 <[Noodles]> +address
1371 2010-12-20 04:37:53 <nanotube> tcatm: aaah, was that the guy who backed up before sending some... so he didn't have the address that holds the change in his backup?
1372 2010-12-20 04:38:02 <tcatm> nanotube: yep
1373 2010-12-20 04:38:05 <nanotube> heh ic
1374 2010-12-20 04:38:26 <tcatm> I'm planning on cracking the privkey someday...
1375 2010-12-20 04:38:29 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: maybe somebody in the future will get lucky
1376 2010-12-20 04:38:33 <doublec> then there was the guy generating for months, tried to sell, and found he was generating on his own chain
1377 2010-12-20 04:38:42 <nanotube> tcatm: yea sad story. good thing we have the address pool now. :)
1378 2010-12-20 04:38:42 <doublec> the road to wealth is fraught with obstacles
1379 2010-12-20 04:39:05 <nanotube> doublec: hehe yea, always good to check with others what the chain looks like. :)
1380 2010-12-20 04:39:06 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: you need a ECC private key that will form a public key that when hashed with sha256 then ripemd160 gives only zeroes
1381 2010-12-20 04:39:26 <nanotube> tcatm: if you can crack that key... you can probably go after some more lucrative keys... ones that have 100k bitcoins in them, e.g.
1382 2010-12-20 04:39:26 <MT`AwAy> and the guy who manage that will probably never notice it
1383 2010-12-20 04:39:32 <da2ce7> burning cash has never been so easy.
1384 2010-12-20 04:39:35 <epicurus> whatever happens with bitcoin, it's a good chance to learn about digital currency
1385 2010-12-20 04:40:03 <Kiba> and maybe we will prove epicurus wrong ;)
1386 2010-12-20 04:40:05 <tcatm> nanotube: yep. I once almost lost 4000 BTC. Recovered them with a hex editor and modified client. The TX was lost on the network so I was able to double spend and thus regain them.
1387 2010-12-20 04:40:32 <epicurus> Kiba,  it's not about right or wrong, my goals are not your goals
1388 2010-12-20 04:40:49 <tcatm> nanotube: If I did that the whole bitcoin economy would collapse.
1389 2010-12-20 04:40:49 <Kiba> right and wrong are based on theories
1390 2010-12-20 04:41:03 <Kiba> you and I have different theories about what make a prosperous society
1391 2010-12-20 04:41:13 <Kiba> are based on the test of theories.
1392 2010-12-20 04:41:20 <epicurus> Kiba,  bitcoin is what it is.  if it's not what i want it to be, i can start my own.
1393 2010-12-20 04:41:27 <Kiba> then do it.
1394 2010-12-20 04:41:29 <nanotube> tcatm: wow, nice.
1395 2010-12-20 04:41:32 <anarchyx> anyone living in japan?
1396 2010-12-20 04:41:41 <da2ce7> :P well we would just quickly spend all our coins to new stronger 1024 character addresses.
1397 2010-12-20 04:41:49 <nanotube> tcatm: how much cpu power does it take to crack an ecdsa key?
1398 2010-12-20 04:41:50 <da2ce7> :P
1399 2010-12-20 04:41:54 <epicurus> anarchyx,  MT`AwAy
1400 2010-12-20 04:42:15 <Kiba> we can moveto a new crypto system, right?
1401 2010-12-20 04:42:20 <tcatm> I don't know but I figured I might try it between mining becoming unprofitable and selling my GPUs on eBay :D
1402 2010-12-20 04:42:21 <MT`AwAy> anarchyx: me :D
1403 2010-12-20 04:42:29 <Keefe> does every possible pub key (as in every combination of bits) theoretically have a corresponding priv key?
1404 2010-12-20 04:42:36 <da2ce7> nanotube, bitcoin keys are VERY hard to crack, don't expect them to be cracked w/o quantam computing.
1405 2010-12-20 04:42:41 <anarchyx> MT: nice :) how is it there? im considering visiting.. always wanted to go
1406 2010-12-20 04:42:42 <nanotube> tcatm: hahaha ic. well, i hope it's not too easy.
1407 2010-12-20 04:42:44 <MT`AwAy> Keefe: no
1408 2010-12-20 04:42:52 larsig has joined
1409 2010-12-20 04:43:05 <epicurus> tcatm,  is mining profitable now?
1410 2010-12-20 04:43:06 <Kiba> if they cracked bitcoin cryptosystem
1411 2010-12-20 04:43:10 <MT`AwAy> anarchyx: mh, you can probably read about that everywhere, not much I can add
1412 2010-12-20 04:43:13 <Kiba> they can prettty much crack anything?
1413 2010-12-20 04:43:21 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: ECC is still pretty new
1414 2010-12-20 04:43:22 <epicurus> 4 months of folding to make 24 cents?
1415 2010-12-20 04:43:34 <[Noodles]> 50x24cents
1416 2010-12-20 04:43:37 <nanotube> epicurus: cpu crunching isn't. gpu still is profitable.
1417 2010-12-20 04:43:54 <Keefe> so money sent to say 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 may be absolutely impossible to recover by cracking the key even with a future supercomputer?
1418 2010-12-20 04:43:55 <tcatm> nanotube: It's probably very unlikely but learning how to write a such a cracking algorithm on GPUs might be worth it.
1419 2010-12-20 04:44:03 <epicurus> [Noodles], 50 cpu?
1420 2010-12-20 04:44:03 <nanotube> epicurus: consider than an ati 5970 can do 600 mhps (compared to a high end cpu maybe 5-10 mhps)
1421 2010-12-20 04:44:07 <tcatm> epicurus: yep. Mining is very profitable right now.
1422 2010-12-20 04:44:13 <MT`AwAy> Keefe: except if one of the private keys indeed give 1111111111111111111114oLvT2
1423 2010-12-20 04:44:18 <da2ce7> when a quantum computer comes out, we will need to increase the address size.  Hopefully we will have a few years of grace to allow everyone to send their coins to stronger addresses.
1424 2010-12-20 04:44:18 <[Noodles]> 50 bitcoins in 4weeks, we cant tell you if it's proftable for you to generate
1425 2010-12-20 04:44:19 <nanotube> tcatm: yea, the experience would be nice. :)
1426 2010-12-20 04:44:29 <MT`AwAy> there's no way to be sure there is a private key fr that, but no way to be sure there's none
1427 2010-12-20 04:44:35 <[Noodles]> depends on your energy-costs and hardware
1428 2010-12-20 04:44:53 <[Noodles]> using your CPU it likely is NOT profitable
1429 2010-12-20 04:45:09 <[Noodles]> except u get energy for free
1430 2010-12-20 04:45:25 <epicurus> well, $12.50 isn't worth all that trouble, unless you plan on some serious appreciation
1431 2010-12-20 04:45:27 <[Noodles]> using a GPU MIGHT be profitable
1432 2010-12-20 04:45:31 <Kiba> you mean heat
1433 2010-12-20 04:45:37 <[Noodles]> but is not guaranteed to be profitable
1434 2010-12-20 04:45:37 <nanotube> [Noodles]: i'm up to 0.067 btc on the mining pool with my vps mining, btw. :)
1435 2010-12-20 04:45:41 <anarchyx> at this rate of difficulty increase, not sure how much longer its gonna remain profitable with gpu
1436 2010-12-20 04:45:44 <epicurus> so yeah its speculation, the reward  is far off in the future
1437 2010-12-20 04:45:58 <da2ce7> I like my GPU's they keep my feet warm at my desk
1438 2010-12-20 04:46:19 <da2ce7> it is like what my micro furnace did, except proffitable.
1439 2010-12-20 04:46:33 <tcatm> Work also great for drying hair :D
1440 2010-12-20 04:46:37 <epicurus> what happens when gpu's become unprofitable?
1441 2010-12-20 04:46:41 <anarchyx> lol tcatm
1442 2010-12-20 04:46:41 <nanotube> anarchyx: well, if you /have the hardware anyway/, e.g. for gaming... it may remain profitable for a while yet. if you are buying hardware just for the mining, then maybe not so much.
1443 2010-12-20 04:46:48 <jgarzik> DerrikeG: what is your specific CPU type?
1444 2010-12-20 04:46:57 <nanotube> epicurus: an equilibrium will be reached. :)
1445 2010-12-20 04:46:59 <anarchyx> nanotube: i bought some for mining
1446 2010-12-20 04:47:23 <nanotube> anarchyx: well you just might get it paid off yet. :) especially if you consider hw resale recovery
1447 2010-12-20 04:47:23 <epicurus> nanotube,  at that point people will be mining purely on speculation
1448 2010-12-20 04:47:31 <tcatm> btw, my miner now gives small electroshocks
1449 2010-12-20 04:47:37 <nanotube> tcatm: O_O
1450 2010-12-20 04:47:55 <Kiba> wasted so much time with you guys
1451 2010-12-20 04:47:57 <Kiba> ;)
1452 2010-12-20 04:48:00 <nanotube> epicurus: some, yes... ones with lowest power costs will be "just at the edge of profitability"
1453 2010-12-20 04:48:02 <da2ce7> :P well I have almost broken even with my computer
1454 2010-12-20 04:48:03 <epicurus> if you mine hard, you might be able to save money on your heating bill this winter
1455 2010-12-20 04:48:21 <Keefe> or mining just to support the network and protect their btc investment
1456 2010-12-20 04:48:32 <anarchyx> anyone try the 6970 yet?
1457 2010-12-20 04:48:32 <nanotube> Keefe: yea that too.
1458 2010-12-20 04:48:44 <DerrikeG> jgarzik: AMD Phenom 9150e Quad-Core Processor (usually / always being run with 3 or all 4 processors)
1459 2010-12-20 04:48:49 <nanotube> Keefe: or mining on free-power. (like i mine on my vps-i-pay-for-anyway)
1460 2010-12-20 04:48:49 <epicurus> you'll burn up gpu's
1461 2010-12-20 04:48:58 <[Noodles]> when GPUs are unprofitable? i just told you that free energy==free coins, so why should GPUs or CPUs or any other method to burn electricity to coins become unprofitable for everyone?
1462 2010-12-20 04:49:01 <epicurus> free-power?
1463 2010-12-20 04:49:05 <jgarzik> DerrikeG: via requires a via cpu :)  it's behaving as expected.
1464 2010-12-20 04:49:26 <[Noodles]> if it's unprofitable to me, i will stop doing it
1465 2010-12-20 04:49:26 <epicurus> yeah it will go to people who can somehow get access to free cpu time
1466 2010-12-20 04:49:34 <nanotube> epicurus: yes... e.g., borging school/work computers... using a vps that you pay for anyway to use for other purposes, etc.
1467 2010-12-20 04:49:43 <Keefe> i hear the 6xxx series isn't much better than 5xxx for bitcoin mining, so probably not worth buying until the price falls, by which point it will likely be unprofitable
1468 2010-12-20 04:49:47 <da2ce7> what is the "Sent: Pubkey" in the block explorer?
1469 2010-12-20 04:49:53 <epicurus> nanotube,  seems like a waste
1470 2010-12-20 04:50:01 <anarchyx> Keefe: but it should drop the 5970 price i think?
1471 2010-12-20 04:50:01 <nanotube> a waste for who?
1472 2010-12-20 04:50:07 <epicurus> but it's already wasted i guess
1473 2010-12-20 04:50:20 <Keefe> already has
1474 2010-12-20 04:50:22 <epicurus> nanotube,  power, cpu time
1475 2010-12-20 04:50:39 <theymos> da2ce7: They sent to an IP address, probably.
1476 2010-12-20 04:50:43 <[Noodles]> so why do you care if they pay for energy or not? if it's cheaper for you to buy than to generate, then there is nothing wrong with stop generating and start buying
1477 2010-12-20 04:50:44 <nanotube> epicurus: well, probably no more wasteful than digging up gold, melting it down, shaping it into bars, then sticking it back under ground in a 'vault'.
1478 2010-12-20 04:51:14 <theymos> da2ce7: Try hovering your mouse over the question marks for help text.
1479 2010-12-20 04:51:16 <slush_cz> ;;bc,pool
1480 2010-12-20 04:51:16 <gribble> Error: "bc,pool" is not a valid command.
1481 2010-12-20 04:51:23 <epicurus> nanotube,  i never thought that was a good plan either
1482 2010-12-20 04:51:23 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
1483 2010-12-20 04:51:24 <gribble> {"active_workers": 62, "hashes_ps": 4081993655, "shares": 115, "round_started": "2010-12-20 04:47:34"}
1484 2010-12-20 04:51:28 <slush_cz> oh
1485 2010-12-20 04:51:47 <nanotube> epicurus: and no more wasteful than banks and paypal running a bunch of computers and networks to process transactions
1486 2010-12-20 04:52:09 <[Noodles]> you might however decide to keep generating anyway, by choice, donation-wise, like you do when you are folding@home, or mapping the galaxy
1487 2010-12-20 04:52:20 <nanotube> right
1488 2010-12-20 04:52:30 <da2ce7> theymos, how dose that work?
1489 2010-12-20 04:52:33 <[Noodles]> to help keeping your coins secure and the network strong
1490 2010-12-20 04:52:46 <theymos> da2ce7: How does what work?
1491 2010-12-20 04:52:48 <nanotube> yep. the network is stronger by about 750khps, thanks to me. :P
1492 2010-12-20 04:52:49 <[Noodles]> without ever generating a block
1493 2010-12-20 04:53:03 <epicurus> [Noodles],  i think the reason you keep doing it is because of the potential for appreciation of value, not the current market value
1494 2010-12-20 04:53:31 <da2ce7> theymos, sending to a pub key. how is it differnt from a standard transaction?
1495 2010-12-20 04:53:41 <[Noodles]> that's one reason for me doing it, that's true
1496 2010-12-20 04:53:44 <Kiba> the likelyhood of generating a bitcoin will keep getting slimer to none
1497 2010-12-20 04:53:50 <[Noodles]> but not the only one
1498 2010-12-20 04:53:57 <[Noodles]> if got some more reasons
1499 2010-12-20 04:54:10 <theymos> da2ce7: If you click on the transaction you can see the different scriptPubKey/scriptSig. When you send to an IP, you get the full public key from the person. Sending to an address requires you to send to a public key hash insetad.
1500 2010-12-20 04:54:13 <epicurus> it sounds pretty slim already
1501 2010-12-20 04:54:23 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1502 2010-12-20 04:54:31 <epicurus> running a cpu on full draw for four months straight costs a lot more than 24 cents
1503 2010-12-20 04:54:47 <[Noodles]> why shouldn't i do it? i'm still in profit
1504 2010-12-20 04:55:01 <epicurus> what is your setup?
1505 2010-12-20 04:55:09 <[Noodles]> although i invested a few hundred bucks in hardware
1506 2010-12-20 04:55:25 <[Noodles]> just a bunch of GPUs and CPUs
1507 2010-12-20 04:55:33 <epicurus> so you're not in profit
1508 2010-12-20 04:55:42 <[Noodles]> nothing you could not set up
1509 2010-12-20 04:55:56 <epicurus> i'd rather buy from you
1510 2010-12-20 04:55:56 <[Noodles]> i just said, i'm still IN profit
1511 2010-12-20 04:56:23 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Did you count also your spent time? :)
1512 2010-12-20 04:56:24 <[Noodles]> but around march generating wont be profitable anymore
1513 2010-12-20 04:56:28 <epicurus> the money is not in generating margins, it's in appreciation over time
1514 2010-12-20 04:56:42 <[Noodles]> at least if the price doesnt rise
1515 2010-12-20 04:56:51 <[Noodles]> if that happens, i'll stop
1516 2010-12-20 04:56:55 <epicurus> i guess it will rise
1517 2010-12-20 04:57:00 <epicurus> thats what keeps people in it
1518 2010-12-20 04:57:14 <[Noodles]> if price rises, i'll keep generating a while
1519 2010-12-20 04:57:23 <[Noodles]> cant say for how long
1520 2010-12-20 04:57:32 <epicurus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
1521 2010-12-20 04:58:59 <theymos> epicurus: The file was uploaded to the bitcoin.org wiki by Insti. It is therefore available under CC-BY.
1522 2010-12-20 04:59:26 <[Noodles]> slush_cz: no, i did not count time
1523 2010-12-20 04:59:28 <epicurus> is this a bot telling me something?
1524 2010-12-20 05:00:36 <theymos> (Referring to the deletion notice on the wikipedia.org file.)
1525 2010-12-20 05:00:41 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
1526 2010-12-20 05:00:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98499 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 284 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 16 hours, 24 minutes, and 59 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14348.81535208
1527 2010-12-20 05:02:27 <theymos> It looks like I'll come just short of winning my BSB bet that the difficulty will exceed 15,000 by the end of the year.
1528 2010-12-20 05:03:13 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: When I count time spent by bitcoin obsession, I think I'm thousands $$$ in loss :-D
1529 2010-12-20 05:04:13 <nanotube> theymos: quick, throw more gpus at it!! :)
1530 2010-12-20 05:04:33 <nanotube> slush_cz: haha yea, counting the time... i'm really badly off. :)
1531 2010-12-20 05:04:51 <theymos> I would if I had any. I'm running two remoteminers, though.
1532 2010-12-20 05:05:12 <nanotube> well, depending on the size of your bet... it may pay off to buy some gpus :)
1533 2010-12-20 05:05:29 <theymos> It was only like 50 BTC, IIRC.
1534 2010-12-20 05:05:42 <nanotube> e.g. if your bet was for 10kusd... you could easily buy 10kusd worth of 5970+hardware... win the bet... then resell the hardware, and make a nice profit.
1535 2010-12-20 05:05:52 <nanotube> hehe well in that case, def not worth it. :)
1536 2010-12-20 05:10:53 <MT`AwAy> pizza came in
1537 2010-12-20 05:11:15 <Cusipzzz> how many BTCs ?
1538 2010-12-20 05:11:15 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: For local currency or crypto currency? :)
1539 2010-12-20 05:11:20 <Cusipzzz> lol
1540 2010-12-20 05:11:27 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz: virtual currency
1541 2010-12-20 05:11:31 <MT`AwAy> (visa)
1542 2010-12-20 05:11:37 <slush_cz> bad
1543 2010-12-20 05:11:59 <Cusipzzz> basically you just created money, without even mining :/
1544 2010-12-20 05:12:24 <MT`AwAy> as long as I can eat it
1545 2010-12-20 05:16:05 <jb55> man that bitcoin.cz pool is chipping blocks off like nothing
1546 2010-12-20 05:16:19 <[Noodles]> cool, isnt it?
1547 2010-12-20 05:16:24 <jb55> yeah
1548 2010-12-20 05:16:41 <jb55> 4339 Mhash/s is nuts
1549 2010-12-20 05:18:03 maximi89 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1550 2010-12-20 05:18:27 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
1551 2010-12-20 05:18:28 <gribble> {"active_workers": 60, "hashes_ps": 4363883127, "shares": 1773, "round_started": "2010-12-20 04:47:34"}
1552 2010-12-20 05:18:36 <nanotube> earlier it was at 4.6 ghps...
1553 2010-12-20 05:18:42 <nanotube> guess someone turned off a 5870 :)
1554 2010-12-20 05:18:54 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 4300000
1555 2010-12-20 05:18:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 hours, 23 minutes, and 57 seconds
1556 2010-12-20 05:18:57 <slush_cz> people was scared because of those problems with payments
1557 2010-12-20 05:19:06 <nanotube> slush_cz: are they resolved now?
1558 2010-12-20 05:19:20 <slush_cz> hope they will come back. Except those trolls from forum :)
1559 2010-12-20 05:19:28 <slush_cz> See forum, they are
1560 2010-12-20 05:19:44 <slush_cz> Money not yet sent, but new blocks are already accounted "in order"
1561 2010-12-20 05:19:48 <nanotube> ah, i see, we have 'reward' and 'unconfirmed reward'. nice. :)
1562 2010-12-20 05:20:23 <slush_cz> when old blocks will be all confirmed, all rewards will be send
1563 2010-12-20 05:21:03 <[Noodles]> i added 100M first day and currently add ~580M, will add another 300M soon
1564 2010-12-20 05:21:25 <[Noodles]> and dare you to scam us, i'll kick your virtual ass
1565 2010-12-20 05:21:29 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Are you adding 580 right now?
1566 2010-12-20 05:21:31 <Azetab> how long does it take for old blocks to be confirmed?
1567 2010-12-20 05:21:35 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: :)
1568 2010-12-20 05:21:40 <[Noodles]> you'd have to register a secondlife-avatar first though
1569 2010-12-20 05:21:47 <slush_cz> 68 confirmations left
1570 2010-12-20 05:21:51 <[Noodles]> right now, yes
1571 2010-12-20 05:21:56 <slush_cz> this one is last on old system
1572 2010-12-20 05:21:57 <BoBeR> hai
1573 2010-12-20 05:22:01 <slush_cz> sorry, 90
1574 2010-12-20 05:22:41 <Azetab> Ok cool
1575 2010-12-20 05:22:42 <theymos> One thing the pool maintainer could do is reduce the block maturation "safety buffers" from 20 blocks to ~2 blocks so it confirms in 102 blocks.
1576 2010-12-20 05:22:44 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: amazing
1577 2010-12-20 05:22:53 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1578 2010-12-20 05:23:16 <slush_cz> theymos: why?
1579 2010-12-20 05:23:33 <theymos> So people don't have to wait as long.
1580 2010-12-20 05:23:50 <slush_cz> theymos: But 120 confirmations is issue of bitcoin network, not miner itself
1581 2010-12-20 05:24:10 <theymos> 100 confirmations is enforced. The remaining 20 is client-side.
1582 2010-12-20 05:24:12 Slix` has joined
1583 2010-12-20 05:24:21 <slush_cz> oh, new info
1584 2010-12-20 05:24:24 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1585 2010-12-20 05:24:30 <slush_cz> But I use stock client :)
1586 2010-12-20 05:24:38 <slush_cz> Is here any secret command line parameter?
1587 2010-12-20 05:24:40 <[Noodles]> stick to 120 or people will even get more confused
1588 2010-12-20 05:24:58 mizerydearia is now known as necrodearia
1589 2010-12-20 05:25:08 DerrikeG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1590 2010-12-20 05:25:15 <slush_cz> You are right. I dont care if I will get my 6 btcs now or after two hours
1591 2010-12-20 05:25:49 <theymos> slush_cz: There's no command-line switch. How are you tracking abuse without modifying Bitcoin?
1592 2010-12-20 05:26:14 <slush_cz> theymos: What do you mean by 'tracking abuse'
1593 2010-12-20 05:26:28 <slush_cz> Of course there is my software between client and bitcoind
1594 2010-12-20 05:26:54 <lfm> slush_cz: how do you know people did the hashes they claim
1595 2010-12-20 05:27:06 <slush_cz> lfm: I'm using lowered targets
1596 2010-12-20 05:27:15 <slush_cz> my software works like proxy around bitcoind
1597 2010-12-20 05:27:54 <slush_cz> lfm: And then checking their PoW on this target
1598 2010-12-20 05:28:19 <slush_cz> Have to go sleep, bye
1599 2010-12-20 05:28:36 <slush_cz> 6.30 am here. I should wake up at 7.30 :-)
1600 2010-12-20 05:28:44 <MT`AwAy> =)
1601 2010-12-20 05:29:31 <slush_cz> hey, another block!
1602 2010-12-20 05:29:34 <slush_cz> it's crazy
1603 2010-12-20 05:30:19 <[Noodles]> it's working!
1604 2010-12-20 05:30:21 <[Noodles]> ^.^
1605 2010-12-20 05:30:35 <slush_cz> seems like
1606 2010-12-20 05:30:35 <nanotube> slush_cz: gn :) have fun. :)
1607 2010-12-20 05:30:40 <slush_cz> bye
1608 2010-12-20 05:31:03 <nanotube> slush_cz: nice! i'm almost up to .1 btc in the pool! :)
1609 2010-12-20 05:31:14 <[Noodles]> with a vps?
1610 2010-12-20 05:31:19 <slush_cz> yes
1611 2010-12-20 05:31:29 <nanotube> never have i dreamed of such copious wealth from generating with one core at 750khps on my vps. :)
1612 2010-12-20 05:31:32 <nanotube> hehe
1613 2010-12-20 05:31:49 <[Noodles]> maybe i should setup my Atom again
1614 2010-12-20 05:31:53 <nanotube> [Noodles]: haha
1615 2010-12-20 05:32:07 <nanotube> your atom would eat power. my vps doesn't. (none that i pay extra for, that is :) )
1616 2010-12-20 05:32:32 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Oh, I though your vps question was to me
1617 2010-12-20 05:32:39 <slush_cz> btw, GOOD NIGHT :)
1618 2010-12-20 05:33:28 <nanotube> gn slush_cz :)
1619 2010-12-20 05:33:42 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/showthread.php?t=1
1620 2010-12-20 05:33:42 <nanotube> [Noodles]: if you have a vps you pay for anyway... you may get away with running a miner on one core.
1621 2010-12-20 05:33:51 <MT`AwAy> :p
1622 2010-12-20 05:34:11 <nanotube> i just started thursday, been running the miner 24/7 (except for the occasional downtime due to jsonrpc errors), and haven't had any complaint from my host.
1623 2010-12-20 05:34:15 <nanotube> yet.
1624 2010-12-20 05:34:23 <doublec> nanotube, who is your host?
1625 2010-12-20 05:34:26 <nanotube> but i have 3 cores available... only using 1 out of 3.
1626 2010-12-20 05:34:28 <nanotube> dreamhost.
1627 2010-12-20 05:34:31 <nanotube> doublec: --^
1628 2010-12-20 05:34:53 acous has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1629 2010-12-20 05:34:57 <doublec> I'm surprised - I thought dreamhost didn't like cpu intensive tasks
1630 2010-12-20 05:36:00 <nanotube> on the vps it's fine
1631 2010-12-20 05:36:04 <nanotube> on the shared host, not so much.
1632 2010-12-20 05:36:05 <BoBeR> doublec, who is running the pool now
1633 2010-12-20 05:36:10 <BoBeR> and what ip?
1634 2010-12-20 05:36:16 <BoBeR> it seems down for me
1635 2010-12-20 05:36:18 <nanotube> doublec: is your own pool still up?
1636 2010-12-20 05:36:22 <nanotube> or did you terminate it now?
1637 2010-12-20 05:36:24 <theymos> Up for me.
1638 2010-12-20 05:36:25 <doublec> nanotube, no I took it down
1639 2010-12-20 05:36:57 <theymos> Pool IP is 91.121.29.91.
1640 2010-12-20 05:37:01 <jb55> wait what another block so quickly?
1641 2010-12-20 05:37:04 <jb55> madness
1642 2010-12-20 05:37:30 <doublec> the pool generates blocks faster than my cpu generates the lower difficulty proof of work
1643 2010-12-20 05:37:32 <nanotube> theymos: is that the slush pool?
1644 2010-12-20 05:37:48 <nanotube> doublec: yea, sometimes blocks go by me without me seeing any reward for them, too.
1645 2010-12-20 05:37:49 <nanotube> heh
1646 2010-12-20 05:37:51 <doublec> nanotube, no that's the puddinpop based pool that someone else is running
1647 2010-12-20 05:37:59 <nanotube> doublec: aah, the sjaak pool ok
1648 2010-12-20 05:38:06 <doublec> yes
1649 2010-12-20 05:38:14 <nanotube> what's the hashrate on that?
1650 2010-12-20 05:38:19 phuzion has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1651 2010-12-20 05:38:28 <doublec> 100,000 khash last I looked
1652 2010-12-20 05:39:11 <theymos> Looks like we're experiencing a lot of attrition to slush's pool. 54,753 khash/s at the moment.
1653 2010-12-20 05:39:31 <doublec> it's hard to compete against the power of slush's
1654 2010-12-20 05:39:49 <doublec> !poolstats
1655 2010-12-20 05:39:51 <theymos> I like puddinpop's remoteminer better than jgarzik's miner.
1656 2010-12-20 05:39:59 <doublec> ;;bc,poolstats
1657 2010-12-20 05:40:00 <gribble> {"active_workers": 64, "hashes_ps": 4323111936, "shares": 768, "round_started": "2010-12-20 05:25:28"}
1658 2010-12-20 05:40:12 <theymos> Also, I like how rewards are generated directly to my address.
1659 2010-12-20 05:40:19 <doublec> yeah I like that too
1660 2010-12-20 05:40:47 <doublec> does jgarzik's miner work with the cyrptopp_asm32 method?
1661 2010-12-20 05:40:54 <doublec> all I get are false proof of works
1662 2010-12-20 05:41:16 <theymos> I don't know. I think it copies Bitcoin's 4way mode.
1663 2010-12-20 05:41:45 <lfm> no cryptoasm is new separate from 4way
1664 2010-12-20 05:42:25 <nanotube> theymos: what kind of hashrate diff do you get with jgarzik's miner vs puddinpop's ?
1665 2010-12-20 05:42:30 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 50000
1666 2010-12-20 05:42:32 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 50000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 week, 5 days, 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 41 seconds
1667 2010-12-20 05:42:37 <lfm> doublec: try it on testnet
1668 2010-12-20 05:42:52 <nanotube> theymos: also... might want to jump over to slush, so you can cash in on your cpu a bit before difficulty goes up. ;)
1669 2010-12-20 05:42:55 <doublec> I get 1033 khash using puddinpop's, 900 on jgarzik's
1670 2010-12-20 05:42:58 HarryS has quit (Quit: Äddi)
1671 2010-12-20 05:43:46 <nanotube> theymos: but you get a bunch of microcents... which you'll lose to tx fees. with slush, your reward is aggregated and you can get bigger chunks without the microcents.
1672 2010-12-20 05:44:17 <nanotube> doublec: hmm... that's some difference... what's the secret sauce?
1673 2010-12-20 05:44:27 <doublec> nanotube, I don't know
1674 2010-12-20 05:44:52 <doublec> It could be server communication overhead differences
1675 2010-12-20 05:45:11 <doublec> ie. jgarzik's uses getwork, puddinpop's uses his own protocol.
1676 2010-12-20 05:45:21 <theymos> nanotube: I never tried jgarzik's miner because I'm not running any version of Bitcoin with getwork AFAIK. Probability-wise, generating for either pool helps raise the difficulty the same amount.
1677 2010-12-20 05:47:06 <nanotube> theymos: you don't need to run bitcoin with getwork. slush is the one that runs the getwork. as far as difficulty: if your pool doesn't gen a block before diff goes up, you don't get to 'cash in' on your cpu power at the lower difficulty.
1678 2010-12-20 05:47:41 <nanotube> theymos: e.g., consider that if you mine with cpu on your own... difficulty may be going up fast enough that your 'average time to mine' increases faster than the pace of time passage.
1679 2010-12-20 05:47:57 <nanotube> theymos: when you join a pool, you can 'cash in' on some of your generation immediately.
1680 2010-12-20 05:48:22 <nanotube> same thing with being in a slower vs a faster pool, using a relatively small contribution.
1681 2010-12-20 05:48:37 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: hey
1682 2010-12-20 05:48:40 <MT`AwAy> ?
1683 2010-12-20 05:48:53 <Kiba> I was thinking of doing an interview for the new bitcoin magazine
1684 2010-12-20 05:48:53 <theymos> Generating is not profitable time-wise. My goal would be to produce blocks as fast as possible. No matter how I generate (even alone), my hashing contribution will increase network block production by the same amount.
1685 2010-12-20 05:49:12 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: would like to interview you via email about your upcoming client
1686 2010-12-20 05:49:16 <Kiba> bitcoin client
1687 2010-12-20 05:49:26 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: it's fine with me
1688 2010-12-20 05:49:34 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: your email address?
1689 2010-12-20 05:49:46 <MT`AwAy> there
1690 2010-12-20 05:50:11 <Kiba> ?
1691 2010-12-20 05:50:20 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I sent it to you via notice
1692 2010-12-20 05:50:39 <Kiba> notice?
1693 2010-12-20 05:50:45 <Kiba> ah
1694 2010-12-20 05:50:51 <epicurus> bitcoin magazine?
1695 2010-12-20 05:50:55 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: if you got a normal irc client it should have appeared in the channel chat window
1696 2010-12-20 05:51:13 <Kiba> I noticed it
1697 2010-12-20 05:51:16 <Kiba> but not this channel
1698 2010-12-20 05:51:22 <epicurus> how many people actively run bitcoin?
1699 2010-12-20 05:51:24 <BoBeR> with the magazine i really hope the anarchy section is well documented
1700 2010-12-20 05:51:30 <BoBeR> or completely omitted
1701 2010-12-20 05:51:35 <BoBeR> no idea
1702 2010-12-20 05:51:48 <Kiba> bober182?
1703 2010-12-20 05:51:48 <BoBeR> best bet is to check the IRC seed channel
1704 2010-12-20 05:51:54 <BoBeR> and try taking a guess
1705 2010-12-20 05:51:59 <BoBeR> kiba it is I
1706 2010-12-20 05:52:10 <MT`AwAy> http://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_total-day.png
1707 2010-12-20 05:52:25 <MT`AwAy> 3~5 k nodes
1708 2010-12-20 05:52:42 <Kiba> the likely hood of a commie anarchist view apperaing in a predomintely anarcho-capitalist community is slim
1709 2010-12-20 05:53:01 <BoBeR> i dont want commie ness in it
1710 2010-12-20 05:53:11 <BoBeR> i just want direct actions included green anarchy
1711 2010-12-20 05:53:16 <BoBeR> not just market anarchism
1712 2010-12-20 05:53:34 <epicurus> i wouldn't call bitcoin anarcho-capitalist
1713 2010-12-20 05:53:36 <BoBeR> as that should not be labeled under anarchy then
1714 2010-12-20 05:53:38 <Kiba> looks we hate wars and all that, but let be realistic here
1715 2010-12-20 05:53:44 <epicurus> it's a top down organization
1716 2010-12-20 05:54:01 <Kiba> epicurus: top down blah blah blah. Dude, it need to be accepted by user. Satoshi have no power.
1717 2010-12-20 05:54:20 <BoBeR> opensource is communist
1718 2010-12-20 05:54:33 <BoBeR> i dont see how bitcoin is left or right
1719 2010-12-20 05:54:37 <Kiba> have you noticed that ESR is not communist? he support anarchism!
1720 2010-12-20 05:54:38 <BoBeR> to me its just code
1721 2010-12-20 05:54:57 <Kiba> this bitcoin community is full of libertarians
1722 2010-12-20 05:55:13 <Kiba> so it's going to be predominately libertarian mag
1723 2010-12-20 05:55:17 <utsl> at least a couple of noisy ones
1724 2010-12-20 05:55:26 <epicurus> how are you going to distribute this mag?
1725 2010-12-20 05:55:42 <BoBeR> yes i agree
1726 2010-12-20 05:55:43 <Kiba> downloads! bittorrent!
1727 2010-12-20 05:55:45 <Kiba> whatever
1728 2010-12-20 05:55:53 <epicurus> pdf?
1729 2010-12-20 05:55:53 <nanotube> epicurus: there's a forum post about it.
1730 2010-12-20 05:56:02 <Kiba> BoBeR: so you're going to have to buy vote. it'll be expensive
1731 2010-12-20 05:56:04 <BoBeR> but then i call to rename the anarchism topic to be renamed
1732 2010-12-20 05:56:11 <epicurus> nanotube,  on the bitcoin site forum?
1733 2010-12-20 05:56:25 <BoBeR> im challenging this freely
1734 2010-12-20 05:56:38 <Kiba> why would anarchism be renamed?
1735 2010-12-20 05:57:09 <utsl> to stop attracting crazy libertarians?  :D
1736 2010-12-20 05:57:16 <BoBeR> if it will only focus on market anarchism or liberitarianism or neoliberitarianism its not very fair
1737 2010-12-20 05:57:28 <epicurus> crzy libertarian is redundant
1738 2010-12-20 05:57:31 <Kiba> it's very fair when the community is majority libertarian
1739 2010-12-20 05:57:32 <utsl> ++
1740 2010-12-20 05:57:38 <BoBeR> no
1741 2010-12-20 05:57:39 <BoBeR> i mean
1742 2010-12-20 05:57:47 <AAA_awright> For a group of people who supposedly hate fiat money Bitcoin sure has a lot of libertarians on it
1743 2010-12-20 05:57:49 <BoBeR> it would be like starting a topic called cars
1744 2010-12-20 05:57:51 <Kiba> how many anarcho-syndicalist we have here?
1745 2010-12-20 05:57:52 <nanotube> jgarzik: "json_rpc_call failed, retry after 30 seconds"  it works! :)
1746 2010-12-20 05:58:01 <BoBeR> but only talking about ferraris
1747 2010-12-20 05:58:01 <nanotube> epicurus: yes
1748 2010-12-20 05:58:08 <Kiba> 1?
1749 2010-12-20 05:58:11 <Kiba> 2?
1750 2010-12-20 05:58:12 <Kiba> 0?
1751 2010-12-20 05:58:14 <BoBeR> 1
1752 2010-12-20 05:58:29 <Kiba> maybe you stand out from your own peers
1753 2010-12-20 05:58:33 <epicurus> bitcoin pretty much is a fiat money
1754 2010-12-20 05:58:43 <Kiba> but it's freeeeeeeeeee market money!
1755 2010-12-20 05:58:57 <Kiba> AAA_awright: lot of libertarians think bitcoin is dumb
1756 2010-12-20 05:59:01 <BoBeR> kiba my point is anarchism spans a lot of topics and cannot be aimed at one part
1757 2010-12-20 05:59:06 <AAA_awright> Well yeah but we don't see those
1758 2010-12-20 05:59:20 <BoBeR> bitcoin is better then what we have right now
1759 2010-12-20 05:59:29 <BoBeR> and most the money made from it was donations
1760 2010-12-20 05:59:32 <nanotube> epicurus: yes it's fiat, but with money creation limited by algorithms and crypto, rather than being at the whim of a govt body.
1761 2010-12-20 05:59:36 <BoBeR> or micro payments
1762 2010-12-20 05:59:44 <BoBeR> almost like a gift economy
1763 2010-12-20 05:59:52 <Kiba> BoBeR: no suprise
1764 2010-12-20 05:59:55 taiki has joined
1765 2010-12-20 05:59:55 <utsl> on another topic, anyone know a site where I cab buy libertarian magic dust with bitcoins?
1766 2010-12-20 06:00:09 <nanotube> BoBeR: i bet the mag will take any good article you submit. so you should feel free to write some good ones on whatever topics you like. :)
1767 2010-12-20 06:00:11 <Kiba> libertarians is receptive to most kind of organizations as long as it is voluntary..but then we prefer free market
1768 2010-12-20 06:00:15 <epicurus> nanotube,  still it' s issued top-down to a technocractic capitalist class
1769 2010-12-20 06:00:18 <AAA_awright> The best thing Bitcoin is good for is the gift economy, hah
1770 2010-12-20 06:00:27 <Kiba> there's not technocracy there
1771 2010-12-20 06:00:29 <taiki> anybody care to explain getwork to me?
1772 2010-12-20 06:00:42 <nanotube> epicurus: but can be bought for usd by anyone... now's a good time to get into bitcoin. they're pretty cheap. :)
1773 2010-12-20 06:01:00 <epicurus> werent the 5 cents a few months ago?
1774 2010-12-20 06:01:06 <AAA_awright> nanotube: No, they sell for market value, just like a lot of things :p
1775 2010-12-20 06:01:26 <nanotube> epicurus: e.g., i'm a member of technocratic capitalist class... but i haven't actually mined bitcoin cuz i have no good gpus, and didn't care to buy the hardware.
1776 2010-12-20 06:01:26 <Kiba> I remember when bitcoin was only 6 cents
1777 2010-12-20 06:01:33 <AAA_awright> ^\
1778 2010-12-20 06:01:33 <nanotube> AAA_awright: haha true
1779 2010-12-20 06:01:45 <Kiba> epicurus is apperantly whining about classes
1780 2010-12-20 06:01:53 <Kiba> I must be a technocrat
1781 2010-12-20 06:01:53 <nanotube> taiki: it's so you can run a bunch of remote miners
1782 2010-12-20 06:01:54 <epicurus> the problem with a fixed quantity currency system is that nobody can borrow money because of deflation
1783 2010-12-20 06:01:55 <Kiba> or something
1784 2010-12-20 06:02:00 <Kiba> epicurus: so?
1785 2010-12-20 06:02:08 <epicurus> so there's no investment and your shit dies
1786 2010-12-20 06:02:10 <Kiba> I still borrowed money from nanotube
1787 2010-12-20 06:02:10 <nanotube> epicurus: oh they can borrow... the question is, would they want to?
1788 2010-12-20 06:02:15 <BoBeR> kiba do you support classes?
1789 2010-12-20 06:02:29 <Kiba> BoBeR: I don't support or oppose classes.
1790 2010-12-20 06:02:32 <epicurus> nanotube,  the answer is yes people will want to borrow to create new value
1791 2010-12-20 06:02:33 <nanotube> BoBeR: i love classes. if you take good ones, you can learn so much! :P
1792 2010-12-20 06:02:34 <BoBeR> or will the freemarket end the class war? (no troll)
1793 2010-12-20 06:02:39 <Kiba> nobody can demolish your home, BoBeR
1794 2010-12-20 06:02:46 <Kiba> that what I support
1795 2010-12-20 06:02:51 <Kiba> not even they're fricking stinking rich
1796 2010-12-20 06:02:54 <taiki> nanotube: I know, but i want to know what the return values are ... i.e how does slush's pooled miner work? The target hash looks weird
1797 2010-12-20 06:03:06 <BoBeR> but cant they take a monopoly on say all the food
1798 2010-12-20 06:03:06 <Kiba> your property, your life
1799 2010-12-20 06:03:09 <Kiba> that's clear?
1800 2010-12-20 06:03:12 <nanotube> epicurus: a generally deflating currency will just set a higher barrier to investment. so people will not invest in stupid crap, but only in stuff that really makes sense.
1801 2010-12-20 06:03:16 <BoBeR> and then force you to be there slaves
1802 2010-12-20 06:03:21 <Kiba> BoBeR: have you ever see someone taking a monopoly of food?
1803 2010-12-20 06:03:29 <BoBeR> in local areas
1804 2010-12-20 06:03:32 <BoBeR> like africa
1805 2010-12-20 06:03:35 <BoBeR> the water companys
1806 2010-12-20 06:03:37 <BoBeR> all that
1807 2010-12-20 06:03:43 <taiki> that was south america iirc
1808 2010-12-20 06:03:54 <BoBeR> warlords
1809 2010-12-20 06:03:55 <nanotube> taiki: he sets an artificially low target, so that he can count people's submitted hashes as proof or their doing stuff. when a hash also happens to match the 'real target' a block is generated.
1810 2010-12-20 06:04:03 <utsl> yep, dumping excess foods to kill the local market
1811 2010-12-20 06:04:14 <Kiba> utsl: sound like...
1812 2010-12-20 06:04:15 <nanotube> taiki: just read what the pool page says about the mechanism. it makes sense. :)
1813 2010-12-20 06:04:18 <Kiba> American farm subsidy!
1814 2010-12-20 06:04:24 <Kiba> really, they should stop that.
1815 2010-12-20 06:04:34 <utsl> well, yes, the biggest joke about free markets is that they aren't
1816 2010-12-20 06:04:35 <Kiba> then we have interdpeendence with Africa and all that good shit
1817 2010-12-20 06:04:49 <epicurus> every industrialized nation has farm subsidy
1818 2010-12-20 06:04:54 <utsl> NZ doesn't
1819 2010-12-20 06:05:07 <utsl> it swallowed the free market koolaid in the mid-80's
1820 2010-12-20 06:05:08 <epicurus> it's a backwater
1821 2010-12-20 06:05:22 <taiki> nanotube: thanks, I have read that but it is still a little fuzzy, when I look at the target it is: ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000 when my real client will return something as lot different ... is it a mask?
1822 2010-12-20 06:05:33 <BoBeR> no
1823 2010-12-20 06:05:40 <epicurus> farm subsidies keep farms in business and keep prices stable and supply stable
1824 2010-12-20 06:05:42 <BoBeR> its just because the current blocks are easy
1825 2010-12-20 06:05:49 <AAA_awright> New Zealand is awfully close, yeah
1826 2010-12-20 06:05:57 <Kiba> epicurus: we have specutulators for that.
1827 2010-12-20 06:05:59 <jgarzik> nanotube: great
1828 2010-12-20 06:06:14 <AAA_awright> The're rated higher than the US in economic freedom iirc, by various studies
1829 2010-12-20 06:06:19 <da2ce7> epicurus, no farm subsidies keep unproffitable businesses in business.
1830 2010-12-20 06:06:45 <epicurus> da2ce7,  that is the cost of doing business of being a human
1831 2010-12-20 06:06:47 <Kiba> but really
1832 2010-12-20 06:06:50 <epicurus> same with health care
1833 2010-12-20 06:06:56 <Kiba> it's hurting countries that could develop interdependence
1834 2010-12-20 06:07:04 <epicurus> you eat you get sick, guaranteed
1835 2010-12-20 06:07:09 <Kiba> with industralized nations
1836 2010-12-20 06:07:12 <epicurus> stop pretending we don
1837 2010-12-20 06:07:49 <nanotube> jgarzik: some people are saying that puddinpop's pooled miner is faster at mining... wonder what magical fairy dust it's using... :)
1838 2010-12-20 06:07:55 <epicurus> part of the cost of doing business for every nation is addressing the human condition
1839 2010-12-20 06:08:00 <BoBeR> kiba how does the free market help disabled ppl and others that cant care for themselves
1840 2010-12-20 06:08:06 <epicurus> f you don't maintain your human capital, your business will fail
1841 2010-12-20 06:08:08 <BoBeR> the elderly and all that
1842 2010-12-20 06:08:16 <Kiba> BoBeR: it's called the mutual aid society
1843 2010-12-20 06:08:18 <nanotube> jgarzik: if any... could be it's just loses less time in network transfers or smth.
1844 2010-12-20 06:08:21 <utsl> how does it deal with externalities and finite resources
1845 2010-12-20 06:08:25 <Kiba> I help you, you help me. No?
1846 2010-12-20 06:08:34 <BoBeR> yes
1847 2010-12-20 06:08:40 <BoBeR> but wont you charge me
1848 2010-12-20 06:08:42 <BoBeR> or something
1849 2010-12-20 06:08:46 <Kiba> we charge each other.
1850 2010-12-20 06:08:50 epicurus has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1851 2010-12-20 06:08:58 <BoBeR> why cant you just skip that step
1852 2010-12-20 06:09:04 <Kiba> when you're in bad situation, I help you...when I am in bad situation..you help me. It's based on reciporacy
1853 2010-12-20 06:09:06 <BoBeR> and we help each other without anything
1854 2010-12-20 06:09:11 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1855 2010-12-20 06:09:13 <Kiba> BoBeR: because I can't have you leeching off of me.
1856 2010-12-20 06:09:19 <BoBeR> if i leech you ban
1857 2010-12-20 06:09:20 <Kiba> and neither can you
1858 2010-12-20 06:09:23 <BoBeR> then im on my own
1859 2010-12-20 06:09:29 <BoBeR> just like in bitcoins
1860 2010-12-20 06:09:34 <BoBeR> if you scam someone
1861 2010-12-20 06:09:43 <BoBeR> you dont buy anymore
1862 2010-12-20 06:09:49 <jgarzik> nanotube: how to define 'faster'?
1863 2010-12-20 06:09:58 <BoBeR> if everyone does there job it works
1864 2010-12-20 06:09:59 <BoBeR> if you dont
1865 2010-12-20 06:10:03 <BoBeR> you get kicked out
1866 2010-12-20 06:10:08 <BoBeR> that how i see it
1867 2010-12-20 06:10:12 <BoBeR> but in a freemarket
1868 2010-12-20 06:10:18 <BoBeR> every one wants to make a profit
1869 2010-12-20 06:10:23 HarryS has joined
1870 2010-12-20 06:10:26 <BoBeR> and in the end someone has to lose
1871 2010-12-20 06:10:26 <jgarzik> nanotube: network protocol is a bit out of my control.  'getwork' on a .cz server is probably different from puddinpop binary-JSON on a .us server.
1872 2010-12-20 06:10:31 <taiki> ... profit is good ?
1873 2010-12-20 06:10:34 <Kiba> BoBeR: we all wants to make a profit. Without profits.how can we pay our rents and stuff?
1874 2010-12-20 06:10:45 <taiki> BoBeR: life is not zero sum
1875 2010-12-20 06:10:45 <Kiba> I need some leftover to save for the future
1876 2010-12-20 06:10:59 <BoBeR> why cant everything be free
1877 2010-12-20 06:11:03 <BoBeR> why pay rent
1878 2010-12-20 06:11:06 <nanotube> jgarzik: <doublec> I get 1033 khash using puddinpop's, 900 on jgarzik's
1879 2010-12-20 06:11:06 <taiki> because communism failed
1880 2010-12-20 06:11:11 <BoBeR> when there is lots of good lank
1881 2010-12-20 06:11:13 <BoBeR> land(
1882 2010-12-20 06:11:14 <Kiba> BoBeR: who will maintain the house I live in?
1883 2010-12-20 06:11:16 <BoBeR> land*
1884 2010-12-20 06:11:16 <utsl> libertarian magic dust will save us all!!
1885 2010-12-20 06:11:20 <BoBeR> you will
1886 2010-12-20 06:11:24 <BoBeR> you fix it your self
1887 2010-12-20 06:11:28 <taiki> who will hook you up to water? internet? telephone
1888 2010-12-20 06:11:29 <taiki> etc..
1889 2010-12-20 06:11:30 <jgarzik> nanotube: that definitely sounds like algorithm
1890 2010-12-20 06:11:31 <BoBeR> or your neighbours help for free
1891 2010-12-20 06:11:33 <Kiba> BoBeR: that mean I own my house
1892 2010-12-20 06:11:33 <BoBeR> then you help them
1893 2010-12-20 06:11:35 <nanotube> jgarzik: yea
1894 2010-12-20 06:11:57 <BoBeR> own as in personal property then yes
1895 2010-12-20 06:12:03 <BoBeR> not as in private
1896 2010-12-20 06:12:10 <Kiba> I called it private property
1897 2010-12-20 06:12:12 <Kiba> but anywya
1898 2010-12-20 06:12:19 <Kiba> I am not interested in maintaining my own house
1899 2010-12-20 06:12:20 <taiki> how is it personal if not private?
1900 2010-12-20 06:12:21 <Kiba> it's too much work
1901 2010-12-20 06:12:22 <BoBeR> personal and private is diffrent
1902 2010-12-20 06:12:32 <BoBeR> personal is your tooth brust
1903 2010-12-20 06:12:34 larsig has joined
1904 2010-12-20 06:12:34 <Kiba> I am going to pay someone else to do it
1905 2010-12-20 06:12:35 <BoBeR> brush
1906 2010-12-20 06:12:39 <BoBeR> but the sink is public
1907 2010-12-20 06:12:46 <Kiba> it's called apartment
1908 2010-12-20 06:12:51 <taiki> ;p
1909 2010-12-20 06:13:04 <taiki> so what is private?
1910 2010-12-20 06:13:05 Cusipzzz has quit ()
1911 2010-12-20 06:13:16 Slix` has joined
1912 2010-12-20 06:13:18 <BoBeR> private is in my world non existant
1913 2010-12-20 06:13:24 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1914 2010-12-20 06:13:28 <Kiba> I like privacy, BoBeR
1915 2010-12-20 06:13:30 <taiki> do you have a wife?
1916 2010-12-20 06:13:33 <jgarzik> doublec: what algorithms generate that diff?
1917 2010-12-20 06:13:38 <taiki> because id like to meet her ;)
1918 2010-12-20 06:13:42 <BoBeR> privacy != private
1919 2010-12-20 06:13:50 <jgarzik> doublec: 1033 vs. 900 khash/sec
1920 2010-12-20 06:13:52 <Kiba> Blah, don't get the difference
1921 2010-12-20 06:13:57 <taiki> no difference
1922 2010-12-20 06:13:57 <nanotube> jgarzik: he said he doesn't know why... just reporting result.
1923 2010-12-20 06:14:14 <BoBeR> privacy is being able to do something without others needing to know
1924 2010-12-20 06:14:18 <BoBeR> aka thought
1925 2010-12-20 06:14:23 <BoBeR> masturbation
1926 2010-12-20 06:14:24 <BoBeR> love
1927 2010-12-20 06:14:25 <jgarzik> nanotube: That's OK.  I'm trying to find out why.  First step is identifying algorithms and platform in use.
1928 2010-12-20 06:14:25 <BoBeR> sex
1929 2010-12-20 06:14:33 <taiki> because you keep it private
1930 2010-12-20 06:14:34 <taiki> ...
1931 2010-12-20 06:14:42 <Kiba> lol
1932 2010-12-20 06:14:45 <BoBeR> private is i guess anything you buy
1933 2010-12-20 06:14:53 <BoBeR> that at the moment you call your own
1934 2010-12-20 06:14:59 <BoBeR> but sometimes give to others
1935 2010-12-20 06:15:04 <BoBeR> like your private car
1936 2010-12-20 06:15:05 <taiki> ownership?
1937 2010-12-20 06:15:09 <BoBeR> sure
1938 2010-12-20 06:15:11 <Kiba> so you're for ownership?
1939 2010-12-20 06:15:15 <BoBeR> private is owner ship
1940 2010-12-20 06:15:16 <Kiba> what about a big company?
1941 2010-12-20 06:15:32 <BoBeR> privacy is having a personal space
1942 2010-12-20 06:15:35 <Kiba> can I own a company
1943 2010-12-20 06:15:52 <BoBeR> why own it
1944 2010-12-20 06:15:55 <taiki> can i own an idea?
1945 2010-12-20 06:15:57 <BoBeR> cant the workers own it
1946 2010-12-20 06:16:01 <BoBeR> no ideas are free
1947 2010-12-20 06:16:01 <Kiba> so I can maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake money
1948 2010-12-20 06:16:07 <Kiba> BoBeR: ideas are free
1949 2010-12-20 06:16:11 <BoBeR> but why should you make more money
1950 2010-12-20 06:16:12 <taiki> what if i keep it to myself and share it with no one
1951 2010-12-20 06:16:15 <taiki> then i own the idea
1952 2010-12-20 06:16:18 <BoBeR> then its personal
1953 2010-12-20 06:16:23 <BoBeR> or in your privacy
1954 2010-12-20 06:16:26 <Kiba> BoBeR: so I can do stuff with it
1955 2010-12-20 06:16:31 <EvanR> ideas are free unless im the only one who can think of it at the moment, and im not telling ;)
1956 2010-12-20 06:16:33 <taiki> but it is me owning an idea which you said is free
1957 2010-12-20 06:16:41 <taiki> lol exactly
1958 2010-12-20 06:16:50 <Kiba> everybody owns all the ideas in their head
1959 2010-12-20 06:16:55 <BoBeR> sure
1960 2010-12-20 06:17:01 <taiki> unless someone else has patented it
1961 2010-12-20 06:17:01 <EvanR> the minute you tell cool people, its not yours anymore
1962 2010-12-20 06:17:02 <taiki> lol
1963 2010-12-20 06:17:04 <BoBeR> but cant someone own the same one
1964 2010-12-20 06:17:07 <Kiba> taiki: patent is evil
1965 2010-12-20 06:17:12 <Kiba> now that person own something in my head
1966 2010-12-20 06:17:14 <Kiba> that's just wrong
1967 2010-12-20 06:17:19 <taiki> lol
1968 2010-12-20 06:17:36 <EvanR> inventions, processes, and mathematical facts should not be considered different. none of them are patented
1969 2010-12-20 06:17:36 <taiki> in ur brains owning ur ideaz
1970 2010-12-20 06:17:37 <BoBeR> cant two ppl both invent a lightbuld and keep it in the privacy of there mind
1971 2010-12-20 06:17:57 <taiki> no because they will be racing to the patent office
1972 2010-12-20 06:18:01 <taiki> first one there owns the idea
1973 2010-12-20 06:18:12 <Kiba> of ideas in that other person's head
1974 2010-12-20 06:18:36 <EvanR> patents are artificial monopolies
1975 2010-12-20 06:18:42 <Kiba> but the patent owners are all be screaming private property and livelihood. That's BS man. They the one who violate property rights.
1976 2010-12-20 06:18:52 <BoBeR> correct
1977 2010-12-20 06:19:00 <taiki> well wiht corporations patent are a neccessary evil
1978 2010-12-20 06:19:03 <Sherpa> OpenCL 1.1 ATI-Stream-v2.2 (302) - CU: 9 @ 800MHz (GPU)
1979 2010-12-20 06:19:04 <BoBeR> i find it even if i "steal" someones idea
1980 2010-12-20 06:19:08 <BoBeR> aka the steam engine
1981 2010-12-20 06:19:20 <BoBeR> i will almost 100% not build it the exact same way
1982 2010-12-20 06:19:24 <BoBeR> i will improve it
1983 2010-12-20 06:19:27 <BoBeR> or deprove it
1984 2010-12-20 06:19:33 <BoBeR> accidentallf
1985 2010-12-20 06:19:35 <taiki> or never finish
1986 2010-12-20 06:19:38 <BoBeR> that too
1987 2010-12-20 06:19:51 <BoBeR> unless i just copy paste
1988 2010-12-20 06:19:55 <BoBeR> then im lazy
1989 2010-12-20 06:19:57 <BoBeR> and want to leech
1990 2010-12-20 06:20:02 <taiki> if you cant patent a recipe then why is there still a market in prepared foods, or frozen dinners?
1991 2010-12-20 06:20:06 <EvanR> retyping code is stupid
1992 2010-12-20 06:20:24 <BoBeR> ppl are lazy
1993 2010-12-20 06:20:25 <EvanR> we arent fransican monks transcribing books
1994 2010-12-20 06:20:31 <BoBeR> but is all frozen food the same
1995 2010-12-20 06:20:38 <BoBeR> diffrent machines make diffrent meals
1996 2010-12-20 06:20:45 <Kiba> I like frozen food
1997 2010-12-20 06:20:47 <Kiba> and bitcoins!
1998 2010-12-20 06:20:47 <nanotube> EvanR: /me pulls off his monk robe and wizard hat... hehe
1999 2010-12-20 06:20:49 <Kiba> and more bitcoin!
2000 2010-12-20 06:20:51 <BoBeR> companies use diffrent potateos
2001 2010-12-20 06:20:54 <taiki> Kiba: I like cooked food
2002 2010-12-20 06:20:54 <lfm> and you cant use copyright for cars or cloths so i guess no one will ecver make new designs
2003 2010-12-20 06:20:56 <da2ce7> or fashon
2004 2010-12-20 06:21:06 <Kiba> taiki: you don't like icecream?
2005 2010-12-20 06:21:08 utsl has left ("yawn")
2006 2010-12-20 06:21:17 <taiki> Kiba: only cooked
2007 2010-12-20 06:21:23 <BoBeR> kiba well said
2008 2010-12-20 06:21:23 <Kiba> cooked ice cream?
2009 2010-12-20 06:21:38 <BoBeR> i can make faux fried icecream balls
2010 2010-12-20 06:21:53 <taiki> deep fried ice cream?
2011 2010-12-20 06:21:55 <BoBeR> you cook a topping and roll that on the icecream
2012 2010-12-20 06:21:55 <Kiba> do you still shoplift from people's store?
2013 2010-12-20 06:21:59 <BoBeR> kinda
2014 2010-12-20 06:22:03 <BoBeR> me?
2015 2010-12-20 06:22:07 <Kiba> yeah
2016 2010-12-20 06:22:14 <BoBeR> oh the kinda is to taiki
2017 2010-12-20 06:22:23 <BoBeR> i shoplift what i need nothing more
2018 2010-12-20 06:22:24 <nanotube> Kiba: icecream is cooked. the milk is pasteurized before being put in icecream. (at least commercial icecream... if you have your own cow and make your own icecream, maybe not. and it'd taste damn good too)
2019 2010-12-20 06:22:26 <BoBeR> from big corps
2020 2010-12-20 06:22:28 <Kiba> I find shoplifting immoral.
2021 2010-12-20 06:22:38 <EvanR> stealing violates property right
2022 2010-12-20 06:22:45 <taiki> nanotube: +1
2023 2010-12-20 06:22:50 <Kiba> oh..
2024 2010-12-20 06:22:52 <BoBeR> i dont think its fair someone can own break
2025 2010-12-20 06:22:59 <BoBeR> bread and all the materials to make it
2026 2010-12-20 06:23:03 <BoBeR> and all the land
2027 2010-12-20 06:23:16 <EvanR> the land is the tricky part
2028 2010-12-20 06:23:22 <BoBeR> if im broke and want to work how can i if i have no money to make/buy bread
2029 2010-12-20 06:23:27 <taiki> BoBeR: I'm assuming you are broke
2030 2010-12-20 06:23:29 <BoBeR> so i think its fair to take what i need
2031 2010-12-20 06:23:33 <taiki> or else you would value property rights
2032 2010-12-20 06:23:34 <da2ce7> yeah, land is hard.  You need to be activly useing the land to claim ownishp
2033 2010-12-20 06:23:46 <EvanR> locke said, people should have rights over what they own. but only if there is enough natural capital for other people to also have
2034 2010-12-20 06:23:57 <BoBeR> what if you activily using it to make a shit ton of bread so others cant
2035 2010-12-20 06:24:03 <BoBeR> im kinda broke
2036 2010-12-20 06:24:08 <Kiba> BoBeR: why would you assume that?
2037 2010-12-20 06:24:08 <BoBeR> i cant affort all i need
2038 2010-12-20 06:24:15 <EvanR> if you own 'all the land' then theres no way to have competition
2039 2010-12-20 06:24:19 <Kiba> me neither, but I don't shoplift
2040 2010-12-20 06:24:21 <BoBeR> assume what?
2041 2010-12-20 06:24:22 <EvanR> you charge arbitrarily high rent
2042 2010-12-20 06:24:45 <Kiba> if you make a shit ton of break, then you need to sell it..or it spoil.
2043 2010-12-20 06:24:54 <Kiba> s/break/bread
2044 2010-12-20 06:24:58 <EvanR> bread is a bad example
2045 2010-12-20 06:25:07 <BoBeR> its a simple example
2046 2010-12-20 06:25:17 <Kiba> BoBeR: you need couponing
2047 2010-12-20 06:25:23 <Kiba> than you can rape corporation without being unethical
2048 2010-12-20 06:25:23 <BoBeR> sure you cant predict the market or recreate it for examples
2049 2010-12-20 06:25:27 <da2ce7> one cannot 'claim' land without actively putting that land to uce.
2050 2010-12-20 06:25:30 <da2ce7> *uce
2051 2010-12-20 06:25:31 <BoBeR> i coupon a lot
2052 2010-12-20 06:25:32 <da2ce7> use
2053 2010-12-20 06:25:44 <EvanR> da2ce7: what do you mean cant?
2054 2010-12-20 06:25:45 <taiki> dawce7: sure but 'use' is loosely defined
2055 2010-12-20 06:26:00 <taiki> dawce7: I use these 1000 acres as a hunting reserve
2056 2010-12-20 06:26:13 <taiki> either way that can't work
2057 2010-12-20 06:26:15 <EvanR> you could use that also as a nature reserve
2058 2010-12-20 06:26:24 <taiki> ...
2059 2010-12-20 06:26:33 <EvanR> no hunting, no nothing but enjoying it
2060 2010-12-20 06:26:33 <taiki> s/hunting/nature
2061 2010-12-20 06:26:39 <EvanR> walking through it
2062 2010-12-20 06:26:55 <taiki> or simply as a co2 reclamation project
2063 2010-12-20 06:26:56 <Kiba> one day you will get caught, get sent to jail, and become a hardened criminal
2064 2010-12-20 06:27:00 <jgarzik> who wants deer meat?  I have way too many deer on my 3 acres as it is right now.
2065 2010-12-20 06:27:02 <taiki> lol, then you dont even have to be near it
2066 2010-12-20 06:27:03 <da2ce7> yep, that is the tricky part.  :P  lots of libertarian philosophers  have come up with different models that this will work
2067 2010-12-20 06:27:11 <da2ce7> *or they say will work
2068 2010-12-20 06:27:19 <taiki> but it wont
2069 2010-12-20 06:27:20 <EvanR> thats what you mean by cant
2070 2010-12-20 06:27:25 <EvanR> libertarian stuff
2071 2010-12-20 06:27:28 <taiki> lol
2072 2010-12-20 06:27:34 <EvanR> if you dont use it, you lose it
2073 2010-12-20 06:27:36 <da2ce7> the shord answer is that, we will work it out when the time comes...
2074 2010-12-20 06:27:50 <Kiba> EvanR: what if you use it for a nature reserve?
2075 2010-12-20 06:27:52 <da2ce7> but to suppose how a socitey may work, is very hard.
2076 2010-12-20 06:28:03 <Kiba> how are you supposed to claim ownership then?
2077 2010-12-20 06:28:03 <EvanR> Kiba: in my opinion, no one should own it
2078 2010-12-20 06:28:10 <nanotube> jgarzik: hehe yea, i've got a herd of like 10 deer running around the house all day. maybe multiple herds, it's not like i recognize them by face. :)
2079 2010-12-20 06:28:18 <BoBeR> kiba corps are stupid
2080 2010-12-20 06:28:20 <EvanR> but in their opinion, i bet whoever is enjoying it owns it
2081 2010-12-20 06:28:22 <Kiba> nanotube: shoot them all!
2082 2010-12-20 06:28:27 <BoBeR> i dont take unless i need
2083 2010-12-20 06:28:32 <BoBeR> i dumpster dive
2084 2010-12-20 06:28:34 <BoBeR> i coupon
2085 2010-12-20 06:28:40 <BoBeR> i do not scams per say
2086 2010-12-20 06:28:41 <taiki> libertarianism: we the people are awesomely good at heart, and we don't need regulations to keep them good, since at heart they already are
2087 2010-12-20 06:28:44 RazielZ has joined
2088 2010-12-20 06:28:45 <BoBeR> but abuse deals
2089 2010-12-20 06:28:47 <EvanR> in communism, we all own it
2090 2010-12-20 06:28:48 <BoBeR> and all that
2091 2010-12-20 06:28:51 <EvanR> but what about this amazing fact
2092 2010-12-20 06:28:54 <EvanR> no one owns it
2093 2010-12-20 06:28:59 <EvanR> s/fact/idea/
2094 2010-12-20 06:29:00 <Kiba> taiki: that's a strawman version of libertarianism
2095 2010-12-20 06:29:16 <taiki> Kiba: I know
2096 2010-12-20 06:29:17 <BoBeR> what if libertarianism is lieing
2097 2010-12-20 06:29:26 <BoBeR> and the heart is bad
2098 2010-12-20 06:29:28 <da2ce7> but in general, the theroy goes: if you are making signifnat productive use of a resorce, then other shouldn't directly infinge on your ability yo do so.
2099 2010-12-20 06:29:42 <Kiba> taiki: that being said, I do like the community I am in
2100 2010-12-20 06:29:46 <Kiba> it's an awesome community
2101 2010-12-20 06:29:50 <taiki> It is a point though, to discuss whether libertarianism believes to much in people
2102 2010-12-20 06:29:58 <Kiba> other libertarian community are mostly talk not do
2103 2010-12-20 06:30:02 <Kiba> this is the oppposite
2104 2010-12-20 06:30:07 <da2ce7> but then again, land is very tricky.  One way or annother, there will need to be some court system,
2105 2010-12-20 06:30:14 <Kiba> taiki: incentive matter
2106 2010-12-20 06:30:15 <Kiba> !
2107 2010-12-20 06:30:15 <EvanR> da2ce7: i hope not
2108 2010-12-20 06:30:23 Diablo-D3 has joined
2109 2010-12-20 06:30:36 <da2ce7> but it will be run not by taxes but volntarty support
2110 2010-12-20 06:30:52 <EvanR> what if the mafia voluntarily supports it
2111 2010-12-20 06:30:55 <taiki> Kiba: I agree, that is why bitcoin is perhaps the most beautiful idea in execution (for motivation) i.e. how transaction processing works/will work
2112 2010-12-20 06:30:57 <da2ce7> say, a murderer still needs a fair trial.
2113 2010-12-20 06:31:19 <taiki> that idea in itself needs generalization
2114 2010-12-20 06:31:26 <Kiba> how does the accused get a fair trial
2115 2010-12-20 06:31:38 <EvanR> not even bitcoin works if there is no restriction of violence
2116 2010-12-20 06:31:41 <Kiba> I think Japan have the most unfair court system in the world compared to the US
2117 2010-12-20 06:32:05 <Kiba> well, Japan is more unfair than the US
2118 2010-12-20 06:32:06 <Kiba> let say
2119 2010-12-20 06:32:08 <EvanR> they could torture you or threaten your family to get your keys
2120 2010-12-20 06:32:11 <Kiba> but US ain't perfect either
2121 2010-12-20 06:32:25 <taiki> EvanR: valid, but that is why anonyminity is important
2122 2010-12-20 06:32:26 <EvanR> violates property rights obviously but...
2123 2010-12-20 06:32:35 <taiki> (sic)
2124 2010-12-20 06:32:42 <EvanR> i agree
2125 2010-12-20 06:32:46 <EvanR> if no one ever sees each other ;)
2126 2010-12-20 06:32:49 <EvanR> were good
2127 2010-12-20 06:32:51 <Kiba> property rights are mostly followed
2128 2010-12-20 06:32:59 <Kiba> otherwise we wouldn't have computers and internet
2129 2010-12-20 06:33:09 <EvanR> arguably thats because of the government
2130 2010-12-20 06:33:09 <BoBeR> Guido Fawkes?
2131 2010-12-20 06:33:11 <Kiba> at least in the US
2132 2010-12-20 06:33:11 <taiki> EvanR: sad thought but yeah...
2133 2010-12-20 06:33:11 <BoBeR> who is he?
2134 2010-12-20 06:33:44 <EvanR> taiki: the internet is an approximation of an ideal environment where we are just nicks on IRC, and associated public keys
2135 2010-12-20 06:33:57 <EvanR> its different physics out there
2136 2010-12-20 06:34:13 <Kiba> the most you can do is troll someone
2137 2010-12-20 06:34:18 <Kiba> but they can just /ignore you
2138 2010-12-20 06:34:19 <da2ce7> any socitey must work to correct itself when property rights are violated.  Or it is doomed for falure.  The question is do you do this in a moral manner or inmoral.
2139 2010-12-20 06:34:49 <Kiba> I remember Warner dude.
2140 2010-12-20 06:34:50 <Kiba> I think
2141 2010-12-20 06:35:01 <Kiba> who was that rich real estate dude?
2142 2010-12-20 06:35:01 <EvanR> da2ce7: uh oh. morality ;)
2143 2010-12-20 06:35:11 <Kiba> he try to demolish a lady's house to make way for his grand casino
2144 2010-12-20 06:35:20 <taiki> EvanR/Kiba: of course, the internet is the ideal medium for happiness (lol) but we can not model a civ. on it
2145 2010-12-20 06:35:23 <EvanR> why cant we do this without bringing philosophy into it
2146 2010-12-20 06:35:32 <da2ce7> If there was a murder, the socitey could easly _voluntarily_ find the resorces to hunt down, try, and prossicute the murderer
2147 2010-12-20 06:35:36 <EvanR> taiki: not yet. maybe we need to escape into the internet
2148 2010-12-20 06:35:37 <Kiba> of course it didn't work
2149 2010-12-20 06:35:48 <BoBeR> kiba was that at me?
2150 2010-12-20 06:35:53 <Kiba> no
2151 2010-12-20 06:35:58 <BoBeR> okay
2152 2010-12-20 06:35:59 <Kiba> it was just a good story
2153 2010-12-20 06:35:59 <EvanR> da2ce7: but thats going to cost a lot
2154 2010-12-20 06:36:20 <EvanR> maybe everyone should carry enough firepower to kill the murderer first
2155 2010-12-20 06:36:21 <taiki> EvanR: tron
2156 2010-12-20 06:36:24 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/cpu-gpu-mining/5-poclbm-python-opencl-bitcoin-miner.html
2157 2010-12-20 06:36:30 <EvanR> and if you fail, we weep but thats it
2158 2010-12-20 06:36:37 <da2ce7> yes, self-defence is the cheaper option.
2159 2010-12-20 06:36:43 <taiki> EvanR: really? more guns is a better solution
2160 2010-12-20 06:36:45 <taiki> ....
2161 2010-12-20 06:36:47 <Kiba> most of society aren't arm
2162 2010-12-20 06:36:50 <EvanR> im just through out ideas
2163 2010-12-20 06:36:53 <Kiba> s/arm/armed
2164 2010-12-20 06:36:55 <EvanR> throwing
2165 2010-12-20 06:37:01 <Kiba> so we get stabbed to death instead
2166 2010-12-20 06:37:11 <EvanR> trust no one
2167 2010-12-20 06:37:14 <Kiba> if they wanna kill, they will try to kill
2168 2010-12-20 06:37:16 <EvanR> dont let them get that close
2169 2010-12-20 06:37:20 <taiki> EvanR: look at successful countries in europe, most 'socialist' and very gun controlling
2170 2010-12-20 06:37:23 <EvanR> dont let anyone in
2171 2010-12-20 06:37:29 <EvanR> if we dont see each other, everythings great
2172 2010-12-20 06:37:38 <Kiba> taiki: they're also homogenerous socieeties?
2173 2010-12-20 06:37:45 <EvanR> guns fine, switch to knives
2174 2010-12-20 06:37:46 <Kiba> in the US, more guns mean more safety
2175 2010-12-20 06:37:47 <taiki> Kiba: I'd rather have a guy run at me with a knife than shoot
2176 2010-12-20 06:37:50 <da2ce7> but still, a free socitey will be still free to prossicute those who infinge aganst it.  the main diferance is that the free socitey won't be doing the infringeing
2177 2010-12-20 06:38:03 <Kiba> taiki: I don't like close and personal
2178 2010-12-20 06:38:19 <Kiba> and you can shoot him back too
2179 2010-12-20 06:38:20 <EvanR> da2ce7: wait. freedom means freedom to take away freedom?
2180 2010-12-20 06:38:39 <Kiba> you need some way to fight against murderers somehow
2181 2010-12-20 06:38:42 <taiki> Kiba: homo generous? yea quite liberal that way too
2182 2010-12-20 06:38:54 <EvanR> Kiba: strong locks
2183 2010-12-20 06:39:00 <EvanR> thats what i use
2184 2010-12-20 06:39:05 <EvanR> my internet is wireless ;)
2185 2010-12-20 06:39:08 <da2ce7> well depending on what philosopher you listern to.
2186 2010-12-20 06:39:40 <Kiba> anyway
2187 2010-12-20 06:39:42 <da2ce7> but my personal view is that the minimum amout of defencive violence nessecary
2188 2010-12-20 06:39:42 <EvanR> your freedom dont matter much when youre dead
2189 2010-12-20 06:39:46 <Kiba> even if we're all slaves
2190 2010-12-20 06:39:55 <Kiba> life is getting better everyday
2191 2010-12-20 06:39:59 <taiki> 'free society' needs organization ... so one gets power over the other, to organize then ...
2192 2010-12-20 06:40:00 JLH has joined
2193 2010-12-20 06:40:00 <Kiba> so let work to keep it that way
2194 2010-12-20 06:40:27 <EvanR> conservatism
2195 2010-12-20 06:40:41 <Kiba> keep life getting better
2196 2010-12-20 06:40:52 <da2ce7> taiki, yes needs some sort of organization... but they won't harm you if you don't pay your rates.
2197 2010-12-20 06:40:53 <Kiba> longer lifespan, more  propserity, etc
2198 2010-12-20 06:41:02 <taiki> Kiba: sometimes you must recess before gaining ...
2199 2010-12-20 06:41:13 <da2ce7> try not paying your tax now... and you will see the diference.
2200 2010-12-20 06:41:16 <taiki> Kiba: all revolutions were terrible, but made things better in the long run
2201 2010-12-20 06:41:21 <EvanR> you should be allowed to hurt peoples reputation, but thats only information. you should also get a second chance
2202 2010-12-20 06:41:34 <Kiba> taiki: like the French revolution. French revolution is EVIL.
2203 2010-12-20 06:41:35 <EvanR> which may be harder to ensure automatically
2204 2010-12-20 06:42:02 <Kiba> eventually end with tyrants and then Napoleon
2205 2010-12-20 06:42:06 <Kiba> I shudders
2206 2010-12-20 06:42:14 <EvanR> blood running in the streets
2207 2010-12-20 06:42:24 <taiki> Kiba: ok, not all but you can understand my sentiment
2208 2010-12-20 06:42:25 <EvanR> canals of blood ;)
2209 2010-12-20 06:43:32 <Kiba> The Russian Revolution
2210 2010-12-20 06:43:56 * Kiba comes to believe that human beings are amoral.
2211 2010-12-20 06:43:56 <BoBeR> was taken over from the anarchist by a stupid stalin
2212 2010-12-20 06:44:00 <taiki> anarchism: government gives power to select people to govern, thus to be completely free from subjugation of those powers government must not exist?
2213 2010-12-20 06:44:23 <BoBeR> anarchism: no government
2214 2010-12-20 06:44:36 <BoBeR> taiki: not the cleverest of trolls
2215 2010-12-20 06:44:48 <Kiba> not immoral
2216 2010-12-20 06:44:49 <Kiba> or moral
2217 2010-12-20 06:44:51 <Kiba> but just amoral
2218 2010-12-20 06:44:52 <taiki> BoBeR: huh?
2219 2010-12-20 06:45:01 <BoBeR> agreeded
2220 2010-12-20 06:45:02 <Kiba> people overuse troll everyday
2221 2010-12-20 06:45:10 <BoBeR> trolllololololool
2222 2010-12-20 06:45:14 <BoBeR> mudkips
2223 2010-12-20 06:45:19 <BoBeR> longcat
2224 2010-12-20 06:45:19 <da2ce7> lol
2225 2010-12-20 06:45:30 <da2ce7> go back to /b/ where you belong
2226 2010-12-20 06:45:39 <Diablo-D3> "millhouse is not a meme" is a meme
2227 2010-12-20 06:45:58 <BoBeR> i havent been a /b/ for a yera
2228 2010-12-20 06:45:59 <taiki> seriously thought this wasn't /b/
2229 2010-12-20 06:45:59 <BoBeR> year
2230 2010-12-20 06:46:20 <taiki> how many fucking young angsty teens are there, seriously
2231 2010-12-20 06:46:27 <BoBeR> over9000
2232 2010-12-20 06:46:33 <taiki> ok that made me laugh
2233 2010-12-20 06:46:34 <Kiba> I am 19.
2234 2010-12-20 06:46:39 <BoBeR> im 17
2235 2010-12-20 06:46:49 <taiki> i knew it!
2236 2010-12-20 06:47:01 <Diablo-D3> I'm 27.
2237 2010-12-20 06:47:03 <EvanR> i am 26, i think
2238 2010-12-20 06:47:06 <BoBeR> i havent been one bee in a year
2239 2010-12-20 06:47:06 <Kiba> you're old
2240 2010-12-20 06:47:10 <Kiba> both of ya
2241 2010-12-20 06:47:14 <da2ce7> lol i'm old. kinda.
2242 2010-12-20 06:47:19 <Diablo-D3> I remember when /b/ didnt exist.
2243 2010-12-20 06:47:21 <BoBeR> im a virgin
2244 2010-12-20 06:47:24 <da2ce7> not the oldest.
2245 2010-12-20 06:47:31 <BoBeR> usenet was the old /b/
2246 2010-12-20 06:47:39 <EvanR> its ok, in my land, age 15 is the age where you should know wtf you are doing and take responsibility for your BS ;)
2247 2010-12-20 06:47:44 <Kiba> Diablo-D3 lost his viriginity when he was 14 years old
2248 2010-12-20 06:48:00 <BoBeR> but he plays diablo
2249 2010-12-20 06:48:05 <BoBeR> there fore its a lie
2250 2010-12-20 06:48:31 <da2ce7> how do you know Diablo-D3 is a guy? did he say?
2251 2010-12-20 06:48:34 <Kiba> don't worry, I am a virgin too
2252 2010-12-20 06:48:34 <da2ce7> :P
2253 2010-12-20 06:49:03 <taiki> how come?
2254 2010-12-20 06:49:04 <BoBeR> because women cant IRC
2255 2010-12-20 06:49:07 * Kiba is too lazy and fat looking to attract girls anyway
2256 2010-12-20 06:49:12 <EvanR> lol
2257 2010-12-20 06:49:13 <Kiba> but I am exercising
2258 2010-12-20 06:49:16 <da2ce7> wow, virgins... you need to earn some more bitcoins and get a real bithooker.
2259 2010-12-20 06:49:20 <taiki> LOL
2260 2010-12-20 06:49:24 * BoBeR is actually by choice
2261 2010-12-20 06:49:31 <EvanR> Kiba is a fat, lazy, armchair anarchist
2262 2010-12-20 06:49:33 * taiki rolls eyes
2263 2010-12-20 06:49:45 <BoBeR> slacktavists
2264 2010-12-20 06:49:47 <Kiba> EvanR: I am not negelecting my exercise
2265 2010-12-20 06:49:51 <EvanR> good
2266 2010-12-20 06:49:59 <Kiba> I can do 15 pushup, and 14 situp
2267 2010-12-20 06:50:04 <Kiba> and ran around the whole neighborhood
2268 2010-12-20 06:50:04 <da2ce7> lol, you need to swim at least a mile a day
2269 2010-12-20 06:50:21 <Kiba> there was a time I couldn't run around the whole neighborhood
2270 2010-12-20 06:50:22 <taiki> whats your mile time?
2271 2010-12-20 06:50:31 <Kiba> meh, 15 minutes. I run too slow.
2272 2010-12-20 06:50:45 <taiki> yea but not bad for a fatty
2273 2010-12-20 06:50:54 <taiki> lol
2274 2010-12-20 06:51:09 <EvanR> chances are you arent really fat
2275 2010-12-20 06:51:17 <Kiba> I am fat.
2276 2010-12-20 06:51:19 <EvanR> maybe you are using the teenage bitch definition of fat
2277 2010-12-20 06:51:21 <Kiba> I have the belly to prove it
2278 2010-12-20 06:51:30 <taiki> Kiba: listen to EvanR
2279 2010-12-20 06:51:35 <EvanR> i.e. you dont look like paris hilton
2280 2010-12-20 06:51:39 <EvanR> so youre fat
2281 2010-12-20 06:51:43 <Kiba> I am a man.
2282 2010-12-20 06:51:45 <EvanR> you have breasts, so youre fat
2283 2010-12-20 06:51:50 <EvanR> im ranting
2284 2010-12-20 06:52:06 <Kiba> anyway, I am pretty sure I can outrun all the fatties my size now
2285 2010-12-20 06:52:07 <taiki> Kiba: your in college now?
2286 2010-12-20 06:52:14 <da2ce7> mine, I swim 1600m in arround 30min.
2287 2010-12-20 06:52:18 <Kiba> in college, using somebody else's money
2288 2010-12-20 06:52:18 <da2ce7> :P
2289 2010-12-20 06:52:25 <BoBeR> how so
2290 2010-12-20 06:52:28 <BoBeR> parents
2291 2010-12-20 06:52:30 <BoBeR> ?
2292 2010-12-20 06:52:30 <Kiba> TAXPAYER
2293 2010-12-20 06:52:36 <taiki> loan?
2294 2010-12-20 06:52:42 <Kiba> no...it's a scholarship
2295 2010-12-20 06:52:45 <Kiba> from the TAXPAYER
2296 2010-12-20 06:52:51 <BoBeR> gov?
2297 2010-12-20 06:52:51 <Kiba> get it?
2298 2010-12-20 06:52:56 <EvanR> taxpayers are buying bitcoins
2299 2010-12-20 06:52:58 <EvanR> lol
2300 2010-12-20 06:52:58 <Kiba> it's not the gov's money
2301 2010-12-20 06:53:03 <Kiba> it's the taxpayer money
2302 2010-12-20 06:53:07 <taiki> yeah, here scholarships are only from alumni org
2303 2010-12-20 06:53:08 <BoBeR> community
2304 2010-12-20 06:53:13 <EvanR> you probably arent allowed to buy bitcoins if you read the fine print
2305 2010-12-20 06:53:15 <Kiba> money that they stole it from to give it to snotty students like me
2306 2010-12-20 06:53:30 <Kiba> but anyway
2307 2010-12-20 06:53:36 <da2ce7> lol
2308 2010-12-20 06:53:40 <taiki> Kiba: so you can grow up and pay for there medicare or whatever
2309 2010-12-20 06:53:41 <Kiba> I pledge to pay back the stolen money in terms of economic productivity
2310 2010-12-20 06:53:55 <da2ce7> what do you study?
2311 2010-12-20 06:54:00 <Kiba> taiki: then there's the issue of old people stealing from the young
2312 2010-12-20 06:54:05 <Kiba> computer science, da2ce7
2313 2010-12-20 06:54:20 <taiki> Kiba: Np-Complete yet?
2314 2010-12-20 06:54:21 <EvanR> NPR just had a blurb about a guy who had unemployment in the 80s who just wrote a check to the california government for 10000 dollars. memo note: 'just paying you back' ;)
2315 2010-12-20 06:54:26 <da2ce7> ah nice, oneday you'll be a good programer
2316 2010-12-20 06:54:39 <Kiba> taiki: not even.
2317 2010-12-20 06:54:49 <Kiba> I am just going through the boring classes first
2318 2010-12-20 06:54:53 <Kiba> gottach save the exciting for last
2319 2010-12-20 06:55:06 <da2ce7> lol
2320 2010-12-20 06:55:07 <da2ce7> yeah
2321 2010-12-20 06:55:16 <theymos> EvanR: That's a real shame. A productive person gives resources to an organization that will just throw it away.
2322 2010-12-20 06:55:17 <taiki> yea those suck, all java and here is a curly bracket
2323 2010-12-20 06:55:31 <taiki> Kiba: but it will get better
2324 2010-12-20 06:55:48 <taiki> Do some crypto, linear algebra, and calculus
2325 2010-12-20 06:55:55 <Kiba> I took and passed my first comptuer science class in high school
2326 2010-12-20 06:55:57 <taiki> and machine learning is huge now
2327 2010-12-20 06:56:03 <EvanR> theymos: in california i guess they dont feel that way
2328 2010-12-20 06:56:05 <Kiba> it was boring java
2329 2010-12-20 06:56:08 <Kiba> I hate Java
2330 2010-12-20 06:56:14 <Kiba> die, die, and die.
2331 2010-12-20 06:56:36 <da2ce7> I only know .net langurages... Like C# and F#
2332 2010-12-20 06:56:37 <EvanR> yes, use lisp javascript or haskell instead to find out why
2333 2010-12-20 06:56:38 <Kiba> I sucks at math
2334 2010-12-20 06:56:38 <da2ce7> :P
2335 2010-12-20 06:56:42 <taiki> Kiba: I felt that way, but it grows on you. The libraries are probably some of the best deisgned librareis
2336 2010-12-20 06:56:51 <Kiba> so I am relearning my trig from Khan academy
2337 2010-12-20 06:56:54 <da2ce7> so I'm completly out of place here.
2338 2010-12-20 06:56:56 <EvanR> taiki: hah.
2339 2010-12-20 06:57:09 <EvanR> HAH
2340 2010-12-20 06:57:13 <EvanR> i say
2341 2010-12-20 06:57:19 <Kiba> then I plan on taking math lesson in parallel with my real math class
2342 2010-12-20 06:57:19 <taiki> Kiba: cs is > 60% math
2343 2010-12-20 06:57:22 <da2ce7> haskell isn't too differnt to F#
2344 2010-12-20 06:57:36 <EvanR> it is different since F# allows side effects
2345 2010-12-20 06:57:52 <taiki> and is patented
2346 2010-12-20 06:57:58 <EvanR> but besides that its a step in the right direction for microsoft
2347 2010-12-20 06:58:17 <da2ce7> yeah the patented part is bad.
2348 2010-12-20 06:59:45 <da2ce7> but microsoft isn't the bad one... oracle is the evil one.
2349 2010-12-20 06:59:56 <da2ce7> now that they own the Java patents.
2350 2010-12-20 07:00:16 <EvanR> maybe this is important: different sets of rights, social mechanisms, and power structures are appropriate for different groups of people
2351 2010-12-20 07:00:22 <da2ce7> microsoft has been quite resonable.
2352 2010-12-20 07:00:29 <EvanR> if you throw US style democracy on china, youll have a problem at the moment
2353 2010-12-20 07:00:43 <EvanR> if you throw it at a random african country, you have... africa
2354 2010-12-20 07:00:54 <da2ce7> bitcoin is the best, it will slowly undermine the banking, and therfore, the goverment.
2355 2010-12-20 07:01:10 <Kiba> da2ce7: evil form of banking
2356 2010-12-20 07:01:17 <Kiba> we're returning to  a good form of banking
2357 2010-12-20 07:01:18 <da2ce7> but do it at a rate that allows people to ajust, not a revolution.
2358 2010-12-20 07:01:44 <Kiba> if the US gov will crash..then let have a stable monentary system os that society don't also fall apart
2359 2010-12-20 07:02:04 <EvanR> the government will not crash
2360 2010-12-20 07:02:05 <Kiba> good night..
2361 2010-12-20 07:02:14 <da2ce7> cya
2362 2010-12-20 07:02:16 <da2ce7> :P
2363 2010-12-20 07:02:56 <taiki> how to own a house if no bank?
2364 2010-12-20 07:03:04 <EvanR> you dont
2365 2010-12-20 07:03:06 <EvanR> just like now
2366 2010-12-20 07:03:17 <EvanR> the bank owns your house
2367 2010-12-20 07:03:29 <da2ce7> let your parents hand you down a house.
2368 2010-12-20 07:03:30 <da2ce7> :P
2369 2010-12-20 07:03:36 <taiki> I'm not from US
2370 2010-12-20 07:03:58 <da2ce7> in many places it isn't even possible for the average person to own a house, even with banks.
2371 2010-12-20 07:04:08 <EvanR> yeah
2372 2010-12-20 07:04:16 <da2ce7> without their parents handing it down.
2373 2010-12-20 07:04:21 <EvanR> that shouldnt be a priority for the current world economy
2374 2010-12-20 07:04:26 <EvanR> owning houses
2375 2010-12-20 07:04:37 <EvanR> though it sort of is in USA
2376 2010-12-20 07:04:39 <taiki> house = lively hood
2377 2010-12-20 07:04:53 <EvanR> we may mean different things by 'house'
2378 2010-12-20 07:05:04 <EvanR> a place to live is important yes
2379 2010-12-20 07:05:17 <EvanR> but who in tokyo has a house?
2380 2010-12-20 07:05:56 <taiki> sure but how many live in tokyo, problem is in any major city
2381 2010-12-20 07:06:07 <EvanR> most of japan xD
2382 2010-12-20 07:06:27 <da2ce7> yeah, land is very expencive all over japan
2383 2010-12-20 07:06:28 <da2ce7> :P
2384 2010-12-20 07:06:40 <EvanR> so house doesnt equal lively hood
2385 2010-12-20 07:07:17 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2386 2010-12-20 07:07:21 <EvanR> today i was thinking of trying to make a profit from a homeless sactuary
2387 2010-12-20 07:07:27 <taiki> yes but rent is also relative to cost of ownership
2388 2010-12-20 07:07:29 <EvanR> sanctuary
2389 2010-12-20 07:07:43 <taiki> how so?
2390 2010-12-20 07:08:00 <EvanR> if i could get around government restrictions on living conditions, i could run a 'free jail'
2391 2010-12-20 07:08:06 <taiki> btw 35 million out of 127 million is certainly not 'most'
2392 2010-12-20 07:08:23 <taiki> (tokyo population)
2393 2010-12-20 07:08:34 <EvanR> wed have running water, stuff to sleep on, blankets, whatever food i could get cheap
2394 2010-12-20 07:08:46 <taiki> why when jail is already free
2395 2010-12-20 07:08:48 <EvanR> i would charge people, and keep a donation fund for those who cant pay
2396 2010-12-20 07:08:56 <EvanR> no jail is being funded by taxes
2397 2010-12-20 07:09:04 <taiki> free for those living there
2398 2010-12-20 07:09:06 <EvanR> and is also for criminals (that have been convicted)
2399 2010-12-20 07:09:21 <EvanR> this would be for non criminals who dont have a place to live for whatever reason
2400 2010-12-20 07:09:32 <EvanR> or for criminals who havent been caught yet
2401 2010-12-20 07:09:41 <EvanR> as long as they support the community
2402 2010-12-20 07:09:44 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/ Now with a new default skin :)
2403 2010-12-20 07:09:53 <taiki> homeless shelters already exist, im confused how this is novel
2404 2010-12-20 07:09:57 <EvanR> its not
2405 2010-12-20 07:10:07 <EvanR> but i dont think they run for profit
2406 2010-12-20 07:10:12 <taiki> oh i see
2407 2010-12-20 07:10:20 <taiki> well no of course not
2408 2010-12-20 07:10:29 <taiki> it would be immensely immoral
2409 2010-12-20 07:10:34 <EvanR> why?
2410 2010-12-20 07:10:43 <taiki> to profit on the backs of those suffering
2411 2010-12-20 07:10:55 <EvanR> they would be suffering less than if nothing was available
2412 2010-12-20 07:11:12 <taiki> but there is not 'nothing available'
2413 2010-12-20 07:11:19 <EvanR> depends on where you are talking about
2414 2010-12-20 07:11:27 <EvanR> they cant necessarily walk to the next city
2415 2010-12-20 07:11:34 <taiki> plus, you can't take profit if you plan to keep a donation fund for those who cant pay
2416 2010-12-20 07:11:40 <taiki> that by definition is non profit
2417 2010-12-20 07:11:43 <EvanR> that would be for emergencies
2418 2010-12-20 07:11:50 <taiki> any 'profit' would go into that pot
2419 2010-12-20 07:12:07 <EvanR> it would be divided, whoever wants to donate does not go to profits
2420 2010-12-20 07:12:20 <da2ce7> sounds too lovey dovey to me.
2421 2010-12-20 07:12:26 <EvanR> i could make them do labor during the day to do things for my profit
2422 2010-12-20 07:12:37 <taiki> work for welfare...
2423 2010-12-20 07:12:48 <da2ce7> now that sounds better, for proffit!
2424 2010-12-20 07:12:48 <da2ce7> :D
2425 2010-12-20 07:13:04 <taiki> lol, sounds like you want slaves
2426 2010-12-20 07:13:16 <EvanR> i could give them bitcoins for their labor which are good for microrent ;)
2427 2010-12-20 07:13:24 <taiki> will work for you as long as i feed and cloth them
2428 2010-12-20 07:13:31 <EvanR> they are free to go and come
2429 2010-12-20 07:13:31 <taiki> clothe?
2430 2010-12-20 07:13:38 <EvanR> they dont have to work
2431 2010-12-20 07:13:48 <taiki> and continue to live there?
2432 2010-12-20 07:13:57 <EvanR> they wont have anything better to do
2433 2010-12-20 07:14:07 <EvanR> its like jail you dont want to sit on your ass for the nex 6 years
2434 2010-12-20 07:14:07 <taiki> ... then why are they homeless?
2435 2010-12-20 07:14:13 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2436 2010-12-20 07:14:15 <EvanR> people become homeless for many reasons
2437 2010-12-20 07:14:39 <taiki> sure but those who are habitually homeless are the ones who need help
2438 2010-12-20 07:14:46 <EvanR> fine, ill help
2439 2010-12-20 07:15:29 <taiki> are you in the US?
2440 2010-12-20 07:15:35 <EvanR> yes
2441 2010-12-20 07:15:44 <taiki> why not just run a for profit prison?
2442 2010-12-20 07:15:58 <EvanR> it wouldnt literally be a prison
2443 2010-12-20 07:16:11 <EvanR> it would just probably be similar to keep costs down
2444 2010-12-20 07:16:20 <taiki> I understand, but I don't think it can run a profit
2445 2010-12-20 07:16:23 <EvanR> a last resort for people who cant take life anymore
2446 2010-12-20 07:16:37 <EvanR> well im sure such a place would break some housing laws around here
2447 2010-12-20 07:16:40 <EvanR> which sucks
2448 2010-12-20 07:17:16 <taiki> also taxes
2449 2010-12-20 07:17:23 <taiki> for profit are required to pay taxes
2450 2010-12-20 07:17:29 <EvanR> yeah
2451 2010-12-20 07:17:32 <taiki> whereas non profit get a huge break right?
2452 2010-12-20 07:17:38 <EvanR> maybe
2453 2010-12-20 07:17:41 <taiki> so why not run non-profit and take a nice salary?
2454 2010-12-20 07:17:50 <EvanR> i thought about that
2455 2010-12-20 07:17:55 <taiki> or do the church thing and let people live in your basement
2456 2010-12-20 07:18:01 <taiki> i know churches get nice taxy breaks
2457 2010-12-20 07:18:14 <taiki> churches also charge something for a room
2458 2010-12-20 07:18:18 <EvanR> i dont like non profits because they only work because of government support
2459 2010-12-20 07:18:25 <taiki> not true
2460 2010-12-20 07:18:43 <taiki> non profit just means that there are no investors that require a return
2461 2010-12-20 07:18:56 <EvanR> isnt that any non public company?
2462 2010-12-20 07:19:02 <taiki> so in effect all surplus is routed back into the company
2463 2010-12-20 07:19:13 <taiki> yes, but also that ^
2464 2010-12-20 07:19:20 <EvanR> where does my salary come from?
2465 2010-12-20 07:19:27 <taiki> and with complete mandated transparency
2466 2010-12-20 07:19:35 <taiki> think about churches
2467 2010-12-20 07:19:39 <EvanR> id rather not
2468 2010-12-20 07:19:51 <taiki> they pay their employees
2469 2010-12-20 07:19:59 <taiki> ok... NGOs
2470 2010-12-20 07:20:01 <EvanR> churches employ people?
2471 2010-12-20 07:20:16 <EvanR> figured they were volunteers
2472 2010-12-20 07:20:17 <taiki> how about oxfam, or some other non profit NGO
2473 2010-12-20 07:20:24 <EvanR> i still dont get it
2474 2010-12-20 07:20:37 <taiki> um unicef?
2475 2010-12-20 07:20:42 <EvanR> is it just a limit on salary or what
2476 2010-12-20 07:20:55 <taiki> do you know unicef?
2477 2010-12-20 07:20:57 <EvanR> no
2478 2010-12-20 07:21:04 <taiki> red cross?
2479 2010-12-20 07:21:13 <EvanR> yes but it still doesnt answer my question
2480 2010-12-20 07:21:19 <taiki> well they have employees
2481 2010-12-20 07:21:22 <EvanR> ok
2482 2010-12-20 07:21:25 <taiki> and the employees make a salary
2483 2010-12-20 07:21:38 <EvanR> ok and how do you decide how much the salary is
2484 2010-12-20 07:21:45 <taiki> market value
2485 2010-12-20 07:22:03 <EvanR> i would rather my salary be higher than that
2486 2010-12-20 07:22:11 <taiki> then be a ceo they make lots
2487 2010-12-20 07:22:26 <EvanR> that sounds a good bit more difficult
2488 2010-12-20 07:22:33 <taiki> money isnt free
2489 2010-12-20 07:22:38 <EvanR> ._.
2490 2010-12-20 07:22:47 <jgarzik> freedom isn't free
2491 2010-12-20 07:22:54 <EvanR> i didnt just suggest someone give me money for nothing
2492 2010-12-20 07:23:17 <taiki> sure but if you want a high salary you should expect it to be difficult
2493 2010-12-20 07:23:19 <EvanR> i dont like 'not for profit', it doesnt mesh well with markets
2494 2010-12-20 07:23:33 <taiki> i dont like markets
2495 2010-12-20 07:23:35 <EvanR> too dependent on the government for support
2496 2010-12-20 07:23:43 <taiki> too dependent on the government for support
2497 2010-12-20 07:23:56 <taiki> everything _depends_ on the government
2498 2010-12-20 07:24:02 <EvanR> like bitcoins?
2499 2010-12-20 07:24:06 <taiki> and not for profits do not depends on government
2500 2010-12-20 07:24:28 <taiki> yes, without internet regulations .. or DARPA there would be no internet
2501 2010-12-20 07:24:58 <taiki> wihtout they relative safety governments provide we couldn't even imagine an internet
2502 2010-12-20 07:25:16 <taiki> we'd be too busy fighting for our lives or catching food or what not
2503 2010-12-20 07:25:24 <EvanR> well this particular plan would not involve any internet, or government protection
2504 2010-12-20 07:25:39 <EvanR> i would enforce the rules
2505 2010-12-20 07:25:48 <EvanR> or my community will kick your ass
2506 2010-12-20 07:25:58 <taiki> lol The Enforcer *cool guy smiley*
2507 2010-12-20 07:26:11 <taiki> You would definitely run into some problems
2508 2010-12-20 07:26:23 <EvanR> yes
2509 2010-12-20 07:26:26 <EvanR> and hopefully solve them
2510 2010-12-20 07:26:30 <taiki> are you trolling me
2511 2010-12-20 07:26:36 <EvanR> without costing the tax payers anything
2512 2010-12-20 07:26:59 <EvanR> no, we havent done any analysis to support your or my way
2513 2010-12-20 07:27:08 <EvanR> its just ideas
2514 2010-12-20 07:27:56 <taiki> yes, but i believe that if an idea is viable and not novel it would exist already
2515 2010-12-20 07:28:10 <EvanR> well thats a nice feeling you have
2516 2010-12-20 07:28:40 <taiki> it's a belief
2517 2010-12-20 07:28:53 <EvanR> it goes without saying
2518 2010-12-20 07:29:33 <EvanR> abandon originality at all costs, is your mantra
2519 2010-12-20 07:29:46 <EvanR> also, get the government to solve stuff
2520 2010-12-20 07:29:55 <taiki> what? not at all
2521 2010-12-20 07:30:07 <taiki> I am saying originality triumphs
2522 2010-12-20 07:30:15 <taiki> s/novel/original
2523 2010-12-20 07:30:25 <EvanR> you said, if it doesnt exist, it cant
2524 2010-12-20 07:30:44 <taiki> no, I said if its obvious and profitable it would exist already
2525 2010-12-20 07:30:57 <taiki> you are generalizing
2526 2010-12-20 07:30:58 <EvanR> you didnt saying anything about obvious
2527 2010-12-20 07:31:07 <EvanR> and i never thought this was obvious
2528 2010-12-20 07:31:16 <nanotube> EvanR: "not novel" == "obvious"
2529 2010-12-20 07:31:35 <taiki> define novel: fresh: original and of a kind not seen before; "the computer produced a completely novel proof of a well-known theorem"
2530 2010-12-20 07:31:49 <EvanR> i thought novel was new
2531 2010-12-20 07:32:18 <nanotube> yes, similar meaning... not new also == obvious
2532 2010-12-20 07:32:18 <joe_1> yes it must be new to be novel
2533 2010-12-20 07:32:21 <EvanR> interesting possible relationship
2534 2010-12-20 07:32:35 <taiki> maybe thinking about nouveau?
2535 2010-12-20 07:32:35 <EvanR> but it does not follow
2536 2010-12-20 07:32:39 <taiki> how so?
2537 2010-12-20 07:33:19 <EvanR> things can be new to me and obvious to me
2538 2010-12-20 07:33:35 <EvanR> we learn obvious things all the time in our studies
2539 2010-12-20 07:33:38 <EvanR> look at it a new way
2540 2010-12-20 07:33:50 <taiki> ok but things can not be original and yet obvious, perhaps obvious after the fact
2541 2010-12-20 07:33:51 <EvanR> other people may alread know
2542 2010-12-20 07:34:18 <taiki> in hindsight things may be obvious, but still the solution is novel
2543 2010-12-20 07:34:40 <taiki> i.e. huffman codeing
2544 2010-12-20 07:34:40 <EvanR> such a thing would definitely be new to me, but the interesting part is your conclusion of existence
2545 2010-12-20 07:35:15 <taiki> well, obviousness implies existence, for if something did not previously exist it could not be obvious
2546 2010-12-20 07:35:21 <EvanR> ._.
2547 2010-12-20 07:35:48 <EvanR> international peace is obvious
2548 2010-12-20 07:36:03 <EvanR> though not inter personal peace
2549 2010-12-20 07:36:11 <EvanR> countries are a lot different from people
2550 2010-12-20 07:36:12 <taiki> international peace is obvious?
2551 2010-12-20 07:36:16 <EvanR> yeah
2552 2010-12-20 07:36:17 <taiki> what do you propose
2553 2010-12-20 07:36:20 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/general-discussion/8-bitcoin-pyramid-scheme.html
2554 2010-12-20 07:36:23 <EvanR> why does it matter
2555 2010-12-20 07:36:30 <taiki> because it is not obvious to me
2556 2010-12-20 07:36:40 <da2ce7> something novel and original would be comeing up with something like Schrödinger's Equation
2557 2010-12-20 07:36:44 <EvanR> stop building up large militaries, and dont try to invade shit
2558 2010-12-20 07:36:55 <taiki> game theory
2559 2010-12-20 07:37:05 <EvanR> also, ignore game theory
2560 2010-12-20 07:37:09 <taiki> building up large militaries actually stopped the cold war
2561 2010-12-20 07:37:13 <taiki> MAD
2562 2010-12-20 07:37:19 <EvanR> they didnt do what i said
2563 2010-12-20 07:37:27 <EvanR> so it doesnt apply
2564 2010-12-20 07:37:41 <taiki> right but exactly the opposite caused peace
2565 2010-12-20 07:37:47 <EvanR> yeah right
2566 2010-12-20 07:38:05 <EvanR> were at peace?
2567 2010-12-20 07:38:39 <EvanR> stop bitching and show on paper why it wont work
2568 2010-12-20 07:38:41 <taiki> Your problem, is that your constituition explicity forbids a standing army during peace time
2569 2010-12-20 07:38:43 jgarzik has quit (Quit: workweek begins, alas)
2570 2010-12-20 07:38:51 <EvanR> i just want to see how big of a negative profit it would be
2571 2010-12-20 07:38:59 <taiki> ever wonder why since ww2 the US has been in a continual state of war
2572 2010-12-20 07:39:04 <EvanR> what??
2573 2010-12-20 07:39:16 <EvanR> actually its not
2574 2010-12-20 07:39:20 <taiki> what?
2575 2010-12-20 07:39:21 <EvanR> technically
2576 2010-12-20 07:39:29 <EvanR> ww2 was the last official war
2577 2010-12-20 07:39:33 <taiki> wrong
2578 2010-12-20 07:39:40 <EvanR> right
2579 2010-12-20 07:39:49 <taiki> lol, define official?
2580 2010-12-20 07:39:55 <EvanR> declaration of war
2581 2010-12-20 07:40:24 <taiki> yes, let me think: cold WAR, vietnam WAR, gulf WAR, ..., WAR on terror
2582 2010-12-20 07:40:30 <EvanR> yeah, and?
2583 2010-12-20 07:40:35 <EvanR> unofficial wars
2584 2010-12-20 07:40:44 <EvanR> war on drugs, war on poverty, ....
2585 2010-12-20 07:40:55 <taiki> lol, how could something declared by your president be unofficial
2586 2010-12-20 07:41:01 <taiki> that is by definition the MOST official
2587 2010-12-20 07:41:04 <EvanR> haha.
2588 2010-12-20 07:41:16 <EvanR> good one
2589 2010-12-20 07:41:35 <taiki> um, explain it to me
2590 2010-12-20 07:41:44 <taiki> what do you mean by unofficial
2591 2010-12-20 07:41:56 <EvanR> called that in mass media, history books etc
2592 2010-12-20 07:42:05 <EvanR> but not on any official declaration papers
2593 2010-12-20 07:42:11 <EvanR> signed by the commander in chief
2594 2010-12-20 07:42:22 <EvanR> against another state
2595 2010-12-20 07:43:19 <EvanR> the US has conducted many more military actions against many things since ww2, way more than you listed
2596 2010-12-20 07:43:28 <EvanR> but none were official wars
2597 2010-12-20 07:43:39 <taiki> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror
2598 2010-12-20 07:43:43 <taiki> scroll to US objectives
2599 2010-12-20 07:43:45 <EvanR> that started in the korean war
2600 2010-12-20 07:44:12 <EvanR> there was a law passed which let the president order troops to do shit without a declaration of war
2601 2010-12-20 07:44:19 <EvanR> in order to actually carry out the korean war
2602 2010-12-20 07:44:25 <taiki> [citation needed]
2603 2010-12-20 07:44:29 <EvanR> ok
2604 2010-12-20 07:44:39 <Diablo-D3> btw, yes, there is such a law
2605 2010-12-20 07:44:43 <Diablo-D3> but theres limitations on it
2606 2010-12-20 07:44:54 <Diablo-D3> the US military _itself_ can defend itself when under attack without express orders
2607 2010-12-20 07:45:05 <Diablo-D3> this is just an extension of that
2608 2010-12-20 07:45:45 <taiki> yes and an attack is a declaration of war by the opposition, so it is official
2609 2010-12-20 07:45:55 <EvanR> here, an attack is not a declaration of war
2610 2010-12-20 07:46:09 <Diablo-D3> it depends
2611 2010-12-20 07:46:17 <EvanR> apparently also not in USSR. they destroyed a passenger jet carrying like 200 people many of which were americans
2612 2010-12-20 07:46:20 <EvanR> no war occured
2613 2010-12-20 07:46:32 <Diablo-D3> an attack has to be directly overt
2614 2010-12-20 07:47:14 <Diablo-D3> as in, if both sides dont want war, no war happens
2615 2010-12-20 07:48:12 <taiki> nice gotta <3 wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States
2616 2010-12-20 07:48:31 <Diablo-D3> otoh, you have shit like Germany
2617 2010-12-20 07:48:40 <Diablo-D3> Hitler declared war on the US.
2618 2010-12-20 07:48:46 <Diablo-D3> no shots fired (at us, anyways)
2619 2010-12-20 07:48:48 <EvanR> an extension? thats funny
2620 2010-12-20 07:48:58 <EvanR> actually going and attacking stuff is a lot different from defense
2621 2010-12-20 07:49:06 <Diablo-D3> evanR: it is and isnt
2622 2010-12-20 07:49:09 <EvanR> it sounds like an entirely different thing
2623 2010-12-20 07:49:21 <Diablo-D3> if someone, say, builds a nuclear missile silo and puts a nuke in it
2624 2010-12-20 07:49:21 <EvanR> contras in south america?
2625 2010-12-20 07:49:24 <Diablo-D3> then thats an act of war
2626 2010-12-20 07:49:49 <EvanR> vietnam
2627 2010-12-20 07:50:07 <EvanR> the gulf war
2628 2010-12-20 07:50:29 <Diablo-D3> but yes, we have a long history of fucking up
2629 2010-12-20 07:51:39 <joe_1> we could all be dead tomorrow as north korea and south korea launch nukes at each other
2630 2010-12-20 07:51:52 <EvanR> well south korea doesnt have nukes
2631 2010-12-20 07:52:01 <Diablo-D3> south korea "has" nukes
2632 2010-12-20 07:52:09 <Diablo-D3> they're in US silos.
2633 2010-12-20 07:52:14 <EvanR> lol??
2634 2010-12-20 07:52:18 <EvanR> didnt know about that one
2635 2010-12-20 07:52:28 <joe_1> yeah
2636 2010-12-20 07:52:36 <Diablo-D3> south korea is protected by the US military.
2637 2010-12-20 07:52:42 <joe_1> south korea has nukes for all intents & purposes
2638 2010-12-20 07:52:44 <EvanR> we are just a bitch, i mean, thats like USSR having silos in cuba
2639 2010-12-20 07:53:00 <Diablo-D3> evanR: except our silos are still in the US.
2640 2010-12-20 07:53:06 <EvanR> what
2641 2010-12-20 07:53:14 <EvanR> korea is a state now?
2642 2010-12-20 07:53:18 <Diablo-D3> it might as well be
2643 2010-12-20 07:53:25 <Diablo-D3> look who defens south korea along the korean border
2644 2010-12-20 07:53:38 <Diablo-D3> its a joint south korean/US task force
2645 2010-12-20 07:53:40 <EvanR> korea doesnt have its own military?
2646 2010-12-20 07:53:41 <EvanR> ok
2647 2010-12-20 07:53:44 <EvanR> its not like japan
2648 2010-12-20 07:53:51 <Diablo-D3> it _kind_ of us
2649 2010-12-20 07:53:52 <Diablo-D3> is
2650 2010-12-20 07:54:00 <Diablo-D3> but the jsdf is self-sustaining
2651 2010-12-20 07:54:05 <EvanR> let china deal with it
2652 2010-12-20 07:54:12 <Diablo-D3> evanR: well, read the cables
2653 2010-12-20 07:54:22 <joe_1> what is the jsdf?
2654 2010-12-20 07:54:23 <Diablo-D3> china, the US, and south korea have a plan cooked up to topple north korea
2655 2010-12-20 07:54:29 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: japanese self defense force
2656 2010-12-20 07:54:37 <EvanR> thats pretty cool i guess
2657 2010-12-20 07:54:49 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, look at what happened over the famous tree incident
2658 2010-12-20 07:54:52 <EvanR> could have come a little sooner
2659 2010-12-20 07:54:54 <EvanR> now they have nukes
2660 2010-12-20 07:55:07 <Diablo-D3> it took us an aircraft carrier (and the associated fleet), and 10,000 men on the ground
2661 2010-12-20 07:55:10 <Diablo-D3> just to cut a tree down
2662 2010-12-20 07:55:29 <Diablo-D3> we take relations with north korea very seriously
2663 2010-12-20 07:56:16 <joe_1> world war 3 starts tomorrow
2664 2010-12-20 07:56:20 <Diablo-D3> we wanted to cut a tree down, we sent two marines to do it, it was on the south korean side of the border, it was obscuring clear view of the north
2665 2010-12-20 07:56:34 <Diablo-D3> north korea illegally entered south korea, and sent back the dead bodies of the marines
2666 2010-12-20 07:56:52 <Diablo-D3> if two marines cant cut down a tree, the entire might of the US military can.
2667 2010-12-20 07:57:27 <Diablo-D3> what north korea did there was an act of war
2668 2010-12-20 07:57:30 <EvanR> can their missiles reach japan
2669 2010-12-20 07:57:34 <Diablo-D3> we could have completely destroyed everything
2670 2010-12-20 07:57:45 <Diablo-D3> evanR: yes, but they can obviously reach south korea and china as well
2671 2010-12-20 07:57:55 <EvanR> just checking
2672 2010-12-20 07:58:02 <EvanR> i should start a sports book about this one
2673 2010-12-20 07:58:05 <Diablo-D3> if north korea would EVER fire on china
2674 2010-12-20 07:58:08 <Diablo-D3> EVER
2675 2010-12-20 07:58:10 <taiki> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/45830000/gif/_45830537_korea_missile_maxrange_466.gif
2676 2010-12-20 07:58:18 <Diablo-D3> that'd be the end of north korea
2677 2010-12-20 07:58:28 <Diablo-D3> taiki: thats kind of bullshit
2678 2010-12-20 07:58:36 <Diablo-D3> the taepondong 2 doesnt work
2679 2010-12-20 07:58:46 JLH has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2680 2010-12-20 07:58:56 <taiki> thats why its barely visible
2681 2010-12-20 07:58:57 <taiki> lol
2682 2010-12-20 07:58:59 <EvanR> ok what about the other ones
2683 2010-12-20 07:59:20 <EvanR> these people are idiots
2684 2010-12-20 07:59:42 <taiki> which makes them the most dangerous
2685 2010-12-20 07:59:58 <taiki> and the leaders are not idiots, they wouldn't attack
2686 2010-12-20 08:00:06 <Diablo-D3> taiki: they detonated a missile during a test over the sea of japan
2687 2010-12-20 08:00:11 <EvanR> he already did, you hear the story
2688 2010-12-20 08:00:14 <taiki> they posture to gain support within their country for being tough
2689 2010-12-20 08:00:15 <EvanR> and also check last month
2690 2010-12-20 08:00:36 <Diablo-D3> well, either detonated (because they were "afraid we'd steal their secrets" (WE LANDED ON THE FUCKING MOON, YOU CUNTS)) or it just fell apart and blew up
2691 2010-12-20 08:00:43 <Diablo-D3> the whole world got to watch that one
2692 2010-12-20 08:01:25 <taiki> lol i agree, they aren't in any position to posture
2693 2010-12-20 08:01:37 <taiki> but they do, and they are feared
2694 2010-12-20 08:01:50 <taiki> how much news coverage did the us run when that happened
2695 2010-12-20 08:02:03 <taiki> and all this ww3 nonsense
2696 2010-12-20 08:02:13 <EvanR> probably a lot
2697 2010-12-20 08:02:17 <EvanR> non stop
2698 2010-12-20 08:02:45 <EvanR> i dont know how this would constitute a world war though
2699 2010-12-20 08:02:49 <EvanR> they dont have any allies
2700 2010-12-20 08:02:59 <joe_1> actually it looks now like s. korea has completed its fire drill on the north korean island, and north korea hasn't launched any nukes yet. so false alarm -- no world war 3.
2701 2010-12-20 08:03:00 <taiki> this was discussed on /. a while ago iirc
2702 2010-12-20 08:03:52 <EvanR> i wonder if i would be drafted
2703 2010-12-20 08:04:00 <EvanR> we already got two countries to rebuild
2704 2010-12-20 08:04:01 <EvanR> at least
2705 2010-12-20 08:04:03 <taiki> joe_1: holy shit, you were watching intently eh?
2706 2010-12-20 08:04:06 <EvanR> north korea might take more men
2707 2010-12-20 08:04:24 <taiki> http://www.voanews.com/english/news/South-Korea-Concludes-Artillery-Drill-Scrambles-Jet-Fighters-112173129.html
2708 2010-12-20 08:04:27 <taiki> 6 minutes ago
2709 2010-12-20 08:05:12 <Diablo-D3> north korea is nuts
2710 2010-12-20 08:05:19 <Diablo-D3> that live fire trill is hilarious
2711 2010-12-20 08:05:31 <Diablo-D3> thats the place that that best korea fired on and killed civilians last month
2712 2010-12-20 08:06:29 <taiki> yea
2713 2010-12-20 08:06:50 <EvanR> Diablo-D3: what i want to know is, how the hell did that incident not start a full scale war
2714 2010-12-20 08:06:54 amiga4000 is now known as Amiga4000
2715 2010-12-20 08:07:09 <Diablo-D3> because south korea has gigantic nuts
2716 2010-12-20 08:07:09 <EvanR> are we pussys now? think about ww1 2 and the rest
2717 2010-12-20 08:07:17 <Diablo-D3> they're on loan, but they have them
2718 2010-12-20 08:07:35 <taiki> i think hes talking about the attack that nk did
2719 2010-12-20 08:07:36 <Diablo-D3> if south korea wanted to go to war over this, we would have went along
2720 2010-12-20 08:07:53 <Amiga4000> yay, first 50 coins earned
2721 2010-12-20 08:07:56 <Diablo-D3> in the greater context of whats going on, the cables sort of spoil the ending of the story
2722 2010-12-20 08:07:58 <EvanR> what if they invade a city
2723 2010-12-20 08:08:05 <EvanR> i guess well just let them have that one too
2724 2010-12-20 08:08:10 <Diablo-D3> the whole china/US/south korea conspiracy
2725 2010-12-20 08:08:21 <Diablo-D3> best korea gets out of hand, it gets toppled
2726 2010-12-20 08:08:23 <EvanR> that plan may change now
2727 2010-12-20 08:08:33 <EvanR> in some way
2728 2010-12-20 08:08:34 <taiki> north korea exists because there is no where to put all the refugees if a war breaks out
2729 2010-12-20 08:08:40 <Diablo-D3> taiki: basically
2730 2010-12-20 08:08:50 <Diablo-D3> it makes me wonder though
2731 2010-12-20 08:08:57 <Diablo-D3> china is purposely building entire ghost cities
2732 2010-12-20 08:09:18 <Diablo-D3> not out of some sort of misguided nationalism, but for actual use
2733 2010-12-20 08:09:24 <Diablo-D3> they've been doing it for years now
2734 2010-12-20 08:09:44 <taiki> interesting, they are preparing for something
2735 2010-12-20 08:09:58 <Diablo-D3> yes.
2736 2010-12-20 08:10:03 Myckel has joined
2737 2010-12-20 08:10:03 Myckel has quit (Changing host)
2738 2010-12-20 08:10:03 Myckel has joined
2739 2010-12-20 08:10:14 <taiki> when they start repairing the underground city, i will be more concerned though
2740 2010-12-20 08:11:09 <EvanR> underground city?
2741 2010-12-20 08:11:15 <taiki> http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/125961.htm
2742 2010-12-20 08:11:52 <Diablo-D3> the one in beijing?
2743 2010-12-20 08:11:57 <taiki> yea
2744 2010-12-20 08:12:03 <Diablo-D3> they closed that last year
2745 2010-12-20 08:12:07 <Diablo-D3> it was open to tourists
2746 2010-12-20 08:12:14 <Diablo-D3> so I suspect they're reusing it
2747 2010-12-20 08:12:46 <Diablo-D3> the military stages stuff through there periodically anyhow
2748 2010-12-20 08:13:52 <taiki> yes but it is in deep decay
2749 2010-12-20 08:13:52 <taiki> http://www.viceland.com/wp/2009/11/chairman-maos-underground-city/
2750 2010-12-20 08:14:15 <Diablo-D3> they could be redoing it
2751 2010-12-20 08:14:24 <taiki> a whole year ago, around when they closed it, so yea... probably rebuilding it
2752 2010-12-20 08:14:35 <EvanR> protip, if you are the supreme ruler of your own rogue state, with complete control over the military and the people, and have no help and no resources. do not pick nuclear war with every nearby superpower
2753 2010-12-20 08:15:01 <EvanR> i could be his advisor
2754 2010-12-20 08:15:08 <Diablo-D3> evanR: I dunno man
2755 2010-12-20 08:15:14 <taiki> probbaly not
2756 2010-12-20 08:15:15 <Diablo-D3> I've won civ games that way
2757 2010-12-20 08:15:20 <EvanR> lol
2758 2010-12-20 08:15:25 <taiki> he needs to be tough so his people respect him
2759 2010-12-20 08:15:31 <taiki> if not, revolt
2760 2010-12-20 08:15:32 <EvanR> that makes NO sense
2761 2010-12-20 08:15:37 <taiki> really?
2762 2010-12-20 08:15:40 <EvanR> cant he just put fake wars on tv?
2763 2010-12-20 08:15:53 <Diablo-D3> built up a nuclear stack, and then launched the ship to alpha centauri while nuking everything
2764 2010-12-20 08:16:06 <EvanR> lol
2765 2010-12-20 08:16:30 <EvanR> does north korea have space rockets?
2766 2010-12-20 08:16:32 <taiki> putting fake wars on tv, doesnt explain why the people are still suffering or why south korea is still there
2767 2010-12-20 08:16:48 <Diablo-D3> evanr: they think they do
2768 2010-12-20 08:17:00 <Diablo-D3> best korea beat the US to the moon
2769 2010-12-20 08:17:01 <EvanR> taiki: oh
2770 2010-12-20 08:17:14 <Diablo-D3> and they currently have a colony on mars
2771 2010-12-20 08:17:17 <taiki> evanr: also, escalation = more concessions
2772 2010-12-20 08:17:18 <Diablo-D3> dear leader has been there
2773 2010-12-20 08:17:23 <taiki> it is a bargaining chip
2774 2010-12-20 08:17:26 <Diablo-D3> he walked around and looked at stuff and came home
2775 2010-12-20 08:17:43 <EvanR> is all of this really true?
2776 2010-12-20 08:17:54 <Diablo-D3> best korea thinks so
2777 2010-12-20 08:18:06 <EvanR> o_O
2778 2010-12-20 08:18:29 <Diablo-D3> best korea press releases are fucking modern art
2779 2010-12-20 08:18:33 <EvanR> what do the soldiers think o this
2780 2010-12-20 08:19:39 <EvanR> cant the generals team up
2781 2010-12-20 08:19:43 <taiki> my favorite: http://calitreview.com/images/ess_north_korean_129.jpg
2782 2010-12-20 08:19:43 <EvanR> it makes no sense
2783 2010-12-20 08:20:30 <EvanR> what does it say
2784 2010-12-20 08:20:58 <taiki> something like 'Do not forget the US imperialist wolves!
2785 2010-12-20 08:21:03 <Diablo-D3> _wow_
2786 2010-12-20 08:21:12 <taiki> there is worse
2787 2010-12-20 08:21:17 <Diablo-D3> they cant even draw a gun in the right direction
2788 2010-12-20 08:21:25 <taiki> LOL
2789 2010-12-20 08:22:07 <taiki> never seen these before:http://theoriens.com/anti-american-propaganda-from-north-korea/
2790 2010-12-20 08:22:46 <BoBeR> http://theoriens.com/anti-american-propaganda-from-north-korea/
2791 2010-12-20 08:22:53 <BoBeR> my bad
2792 2010-12-20 08:22:59 <taiki> yeah its fucked up
2793 2010-12-20 08:23:10 <taiki> (the propaganda)
2794 2010-12-20 08:23:16 <taiki> anyways im to sleep
2795 2010-12-20 08:23:20 <taiki> see you
2796 2010-12-20 08:23:31 taiki has quit ()
2797 2010-12-20 08:24:01 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
2798 2010-12-20 08:24:02 Grantt has joined
2799 2010-12-20 08:25:23 <EvanR> hm.
2800 2010-12-20 08:25:47 <EvanR> funny because here it works as anti north korean propaganda ;)
2801 2010-12-20 08:25:51 <EvanR> and we didnt even have to make it
2802 2010-12-20 08:27:10 <BoBeR> not really
2803 2010-12-20 08:27:18 <BoBeR> it shows that america tortures ppl
2804 2010-12-20 08:27:21 <BoBeR> nothing new about that
2805 2010-12-20 08:28:07 <EvanR> mmmm.
2806 2010-12-20 08:29:59 <EvanR> well i hope when we invade north korea nothing like that happens
2807 2010-12-20 08:36:32 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
2808 2010-12-20 08:40:11 warner has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
2809 2010-12-20 08:55:16 grondilu has joined
2810 2010-12-20 08:55:17 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2811 2010-12-20 08:56:51 <grondilu> what's up with Google trends ?  It shows a complete different graph about bitcoin.
2812 2010-12-20 08:57:15 <Amiga4000> different to what?
2813 2010-12-20 08:57:41 <grondilu> to what it was a few days ago
2814 2010-12-20 08:58:50 <Amiga4000> dunno, do not use google
2815 2010-12-20 09:16:56 <lfm> yup the trend has even changed in the past it looks like
2816 2010-12-20 09:18:32 rlifchitz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2817 2010-12-20 09:18:47 rlifchitz has joined
2818 2010-12-20 09:27:32 Toadyonps3 has quit (Quit: So if a tree falls on Bill Gates in the forest,would anyone really care?)
2819 2010-12-20 09:28:04 Toadyonps3 has joined
2820 2010-12-20 09:32:47 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
2821 2010-12-20 09:33:28 Toadyonps3 has quit (Quit: So if a tree falls on Bill Gates in the forest,would anyone really care?)
2822 2010-12-20 09:33:57 Toadyonps3 has joined
2823 2010-12-20 09:34:40 PeterCooperJr has joined
2824 2010-12-20 09:35:55 <Keefe> it seems the total processing power hasn't been climbing much for weeks
2825 2010-12-20 09:37:46 noagendamarket has joined
2826 2010-12-20 09:38:04 <Amiga4000> I just had added ~400 mhases/sec last week
2827 2010-12-20 09:38:23 <Amiga4000> but if others leave...
2828 2010-12-20 09:39:19 PeterCooperJr has quit (Client Quit)
2829 2010-12-20 09:41:00 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
2830 2010-12-20 09:41:00 noagendamarket has joined
2831 2010-12-20 09:42:18 <Keefe> total is around 110000 mhps
2832 2010-12-20 09:43:30 <Amiga4000> not to few ;-)
2833 2010-12-20 09:49:21 m0mchil has joined
2834 2010-12-20 09:53:12 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2835 2010-12-20 09:53:41 <joe_1> this isn't good. if people stop generating we're doomed
2836 2010-12-20 09:54:30 zylche has joined
2837 2010-12-20 09:54:43 <joe_1> we need these generation pools to develop. possibly post them on bitcoin.org like the trade section lists places that accept coins
2838 2010-12-20 09:55:16 <slush_cz> I think core developers are not happy for the pools
2839 2010-12-20 09:55:35 <joe_1> why?
2840 2010-12-20 09:56:22 <slush_cz> But yes, a) adding pools to site b) allow client to connect directly to the pool (by setting up url and username in options) would be great. Start in pool is difficult for common users (have to download separate miner, fiddle with command line, ...)
2841 2010-12-20 09:56:43 <slush_cz> joe_1: somebody think it is another way to centralization
2842 2010-12-20 09:57:13 <slush_cz> joe_1: I don't think so. as a pool operator, I have no real computing power. One mistake and everybody disconnect
2843 2010-12-20 09:58:04 <joe_1> well, how do pools work? clearly, a central computur dictates the work to the workers?
2844 2010-12-20 09:58:29 <slush_cz> yes, like that
2845 2010-12-20 09:58:46 <slush_cz> Send pieces of proof of work, to not duplicate effort for workers
2846 2010-12-20 09:58:58 <slush_cz> ..pieces FOR proof of work
2847 2010-12-20 09:59:42 <slush_cz> and then check they are not checking by recalculating winning hashes
2848 2010-12-20 09:59:48 <joe_1> that doesn't make sense. a miner can only solve the whole problem or not solve any of it.
2849 2010-12-20 09:59:53 <slush_cz> shit checking -> cheating
2850 2010-12-20 10:00:01 <slush_cz> too early here, I almost sleep yet :)
2851 2010-12-20 10:00:05 <Diablo-D3> heh
2852 2010-12-20 10:00:30 <joe_1> so the developers are probably worried that the central owner is deciding what to put in the blocks. You could command your whole army to delete and rewrite old transactions if you wanted to.
2853 2010-12-20 10:00:52 <slush_cz> yes, teoretically it is possible
2854 2010-12-20 10:01:02 <slush_cz> but as I said, one mistake and i'm out
2855 2010-12-20 10:01:12 <joe_1> why are you out if there's a mistake?
2856 2010-12-20 10:01:35 <slush_cz> because people instantly disconnect. After that, pool have no real power
2857 2010-12-20 10:02:03 <joe_1> oh, you mean, if you did something bad people would stop using the pool?
2858 2010-12-20 10:02:06 <slush_cz> WHen some strong guy with house full of GPUs start to cheat, there is not way how to stop it
2859 2010-12-20 10:02:12 <slush_cz> of course
2860 2010-12-20 10:02:18 <Diablo-D3> damnit art
2861 2010-12-20 10:02:21 <joe_1> ok that makes sense.
2862 2010-12-20 10:02:35 <slush_cz> I missed payments for few days (no cent lost) and people already went away :_
2863 2010-12-20 10:03:09 <joe_1> i thought the network paid?
2864 2010-12-20 10:04:06 <joe_1> nevermind, you probably pay the participants
2865 2010-12-20 10:04:06 <slush_cz> Yes, it paid, but there were some technical issues that payments was mixed. Somebody was paid sooner than other although his contribution
2866 2010-12-20 10:04:24 <slush_cz> Yeah, I fixed it today and it works now :)
2867 2010-12-20 10:04:37 <joe_1> How is it determined, how much each person contributed?
2868 2010-12-20 10:04:46 <slush_cz> many people complaints that I did not sent them their 0.1 bitcoin yet :-)
2869 2010-12-20 10:04:53 <Diablo-D3> lol
2870 2010-12-20 10:05:10 <Diablo-D3> isnt the network curbing < 0.1 payments atm?
2871 2010-12-20 10:05:20 <slush_cz> joe_1: I'm not sending official 'target' to workers, I'm lowering it
2872 2010-12-20 10:05:35 <m0mchil> I can't imagine the havoc when you switch to different targets :)
2873 2010-12-20 10:05:36 <slush_cz> It is little technical, but workers think network difficulty is 1 (instead 12xxx)
2874 2010-12-20 10:05:36 <joe_1> ok
2875 2010-12-20 10:05:46 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: btw, re: that
2876 2010-12-20 10:05:58 <Diablo-D3> your network difficultly shouldnt go below 32 bits
2877 2010-12-20 10:06:12 <slush_cz> I know that
2878 2010-12-20 10:06:21 <Diablo-D3> well, wernt you asking me to add that on my miner? :D
2879 2010-12-20 10:06:25 <slush_cz> But I want to make it higher for strong GPUs
2880 2010-12-20 10:06:28 <m0mchil> it should, to distribute shares evenly
2881 2010-12-20 10:06:37 <slush_cz> It was many days before :)
2882 2010-12-20 10:06:44 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: no, just make shares dynamically valued
2883 2010-12-20 10:07:06 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: is there some reason why it is not possible (target < 32)
2884 2010-12-20 10:07:06 <Diablo-D3> ie, a non-constant dividend
2885 2010-12-20 10:07:07 <m0mchil> there will be problem with not evenly presented workers
2886 2010-12-20 10:07:15 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: it makes the code look like shit, really.
2887 2010-12-20 10:07:22 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I dont want to remove optimizations on specific cases
2888 2010-12-20 10:07:38 <slush_cz> well, I can live with it. Even extremely slow computers make share time to time
2889 2010-12-20 10:07:44 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I get it
2890 2010-12-20 10:08:05 <slush_cz> m0mchil: it is not havoc. It is one-liner :)
2891 2010-12-20 10:08:06 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: well, what you do, is you measure non-constant lengths of time (ie, time since last coin was produced until now), then split the coin based on shares
2892 2010-12-20 10:08:12 <m0mchil> if the pool gets even more powerful slower workers will not get proper shares
2893 2010-12-20 10:08:21 <m0mchil> statistically they will
2894 2010-12-20 10:08:34 <m0mchil> but this is not enough
2895 2010-12-20 10:08:36 <Diablo-D3> you COULD average out the time to make it constant
2896 2010-12-20 10:08:40 <Diablo-D3> say, dump payments monthly
2897 2010-12-20 10:08:42 <slush_cz> m0mchil: Basic lowered target will be 1 for ever
2898 2010-12-20 10:09:02 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: so, my miner should work on the pool as is?
2899 2010-12-20 10:09:19 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: btw, miners that cant regularly produce 1 difficulty shares are basically fucked
2900 2010-12-20 10:09:24 <Diablo-D3> its not worth mining on them at all
2901 2010-12-20 10:09:27 <slush_cz> yes, it can. I just have to know not to set basic target under 32 bits
2902 2010-12-20 10:09:31 <m0mchil> ok, I'm fine with this :) my miner got faster with the 'under 32' check
2903 2010-12-20 10:09:34 <m0mchil> surprisingly
2904 2010-12-20 10:09:58 <m0mchil> Diablo-D3, I agree
2905 2010-12-20 10:09:59 <Diablo-D3> my 4850 does 50 difficulty 1s per 45 minutes
2906 2010-12-20 10:10:02 <Diablo-D3> so ymmv
2907 2010-12-20 10:10:05 <joe_1> what if there are "asshole" clients that withhold the work proof if they solved it to the real target, but give it up if it's high enough for a share?
2908 2010-12-20 10:10:31 <m0mchil> they'd lose proportionally
2909 2010-12-20 10:10:50 <slush_cz> joe_1: yes, there is no reason for that. They cut own income
2910 2010-12-20 10:11:22 <slush_cz> joe_1: target hash is valuable only for central server, worker cannot submit it to network by self to get paid full 50BTC
2911 2010-12-20 10:12:32 <joe_1> i figured that they couldn't submit it themself for 50. But if they withhold it from the central server, there is still a damage to the honest workers in the pool, I think.
2912 2010-12-20 10:12:58 <slush_cz> joe_1: no, it isn't
2913 2010-12-20 10:13:20 <joe_1> let's say i'm doing 1 mhash, and there are 999 other dishonest people each doing 1mhash
2914 2010-12-20 10:13:34 <joe_1> the pool won't hit until *I* find the proof
2915 2010-12-20 10:13:46 <slush_cz> yes, there can be man with strong GPU, solving shares and throwing winning ones out, but what is the motivation?
2916 2010-12-20 10:13:47 <joe_1> but i only get .05 BTC instead of 50 BTC
2917 2010-12-20 10:13:53 <slush_cz> pay electricity for nothing :)
2918 2010-12-20 10:13:58 <m0mchil> there will be damage... but it isn't free for the dishonest participants
2919 2010-12-20 10:14:19 <slush_cz> m0mchil: better said
2920 2010-12-20 10:14:25 <joe_1> ok, that makes sense
2921 2010-12-20 10:14:53 <slush_cz> ;;bc,poolstats
2922 2010-12-20 10:14:53 <gribble> {"active_workers": 75, "hashes_ps": 4403236827, "shares": 17691, "round_started": "2010-12-20 05:25:28"}
2923 2010-12-20 10:14:57 <m0mchil> for example, you can join slush's pool with another 4.5 GHash and withdraw wining hashes
2924 2010-12-20 10:15:10 <m0mchil> you will sabotage 50% of pool production
2925 2010-12-20 10:15:21 <m0mchil> this will cost you your 4.5 Ghash
2926 2010-12-20 10:15:56 <[Noodles]> so in the end, the pool still has its initial 4.5Ghash
2927 2010-12-20 10:16:03 <[Noodles]> no damage at all
2928 2010-12-20 10:16:16 <[Noodles]> only to yourself
2929 2010-12-20 10:16:30 <m0mchil> well, the dishonest particpant will receive half of production
2930 2010-12-20 10:17:15 <slush_cz> oh my god, people on forum become crazy (facepalm)
2931 2010-12-20 10:17:24 <m0mchil> just ignore
2932 2010-12-20 10:17:42 <m0mchil> them
2933 2010-12-20 10:18:21 satamusic has joined
2934 2010-12-20 10:19:44 <Diablo-D3> [05:08:16] <joe_1> what if there are "asshole" clients that withhold the work proof if they solved it to the real target, but give it up if it's high enough for a share?
2935 2010-12-20 10:19:47 <Diablo-D3> um
2936 2010-12-20 10:19:50 <Diablo-D3> I'd expect them to do that
2937 2010-12-20 10:20:22 <Diablo-D3> infact, thats a pretty good optimization
2938 2010-12-20 10:22:06 <m0mchil> Diablo, would you like to explain more?
2939 2010-12-20 10:23:00 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: basically, the only coins that leak through into the pool are ones that people want to share
2940 2010-12-20 10:23:41 <Diablo-D3> the system could reverse bias that if you send too many shit shares, yours lose value
2941 2010-12-20 10:24:08 <Diablo-D3> (or rather, make ALL shit shares, and then increase individual user's values based on the number of winning shares they send)
2942 2010-12-20 10:24:25 <Diablo-D3> so the system balances itself out naturally
2943 2010-12-20 10:26:01 <Diablo-D3> oh look at that, I've solved the problem! common sense wins again!
2944 2010-12-20 10:26:06 <slush_cz> oh, i did not catch it
2945 2010-12-20 10:26:30 <slush_cz> looks like missing common sense :)
2946 2010-12-20 10:26:54 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: basically, you positively reward people who give winning shares to the pool
2947 2010-12-20 10:26:59 <slush_cz> but yes, not submitting shares to pool is exactly the same as not submitting shares to real network
2948 2010-12-20 10:27:07 <Diablo-D3> wrong
2949 2010-12-20 10:27:17 <Diablo-D3> shares are sub-valid blocks
2950 2010-12-20 10:27:23 <slush_cz> yes
2951 2010-12-20 10:27:30 <Diablo-D3> valid blocks are a subset of shares
2952 2010-12-20 10:27:37 <slush_cz> get it
2953 2010-12-20 10:27:55 <Diablo-D3> ergo, I can scum all the valid blocks out and submit to the pool shares that are never valid blocks
2954 2010-12-20 10:28:25 <Diablo-D3> so I profit from the efforts of the pool, but the pool does not profit from me
2955 2010-12-20 10:28:32 <Diablo-D3> thats a perfectly valid optimization
2956 2010-12-20 10:28:36 <m0mchil> no
2957 2010-12-20 10:28:46 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: yes.
2958 2010-12-20 10:28:55 <Diablo-D3> I can submit valid shares that aren't valid blocks
2959 2010-12-20 10:29:03 <m0mchil> yes
2960 2010-12-20 10:29:24 <Diablo-D3> now, if EVERYBODY does this, obviously, the pool is dead
2961 2010-12-20 10:29:33 <Diablo-D3> because everyone optimized the pool out of the problem
2962 2010-12-20 10:29:34 <m0mchil> but withdrawing wining shares will lose your portion... all you can do is sabotage
2963 2010-12-20 10:29:56 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: not at all
2964 2010-12-20 10:29:59 <m0mchil> sabotage at a price
2965 2010-12-20 10:30:05 <Diablo-D3> I'm not paid for blocks
2966 2010-12-20 10:30:07 <Diablo-D3> I'm paid for shares
2967 2010-12-20 10:30:13 <Diablo-D3> there is no reward for producing blocks
2968 2010-12-20 10:30:36 <Diablo-D3> my solution, above, is reward users for producing blocks and handing them over to the pool
2969 2010-12-20 10:30:51 <m0mchil> yes, satoshi proposed that
2970 2010-12-20 10:31:01 <Diablo-D3> except I just proposed that
2971 2010-12-20 10:31:14 <Diablo-D3> bias the value of shares on a per-user bassis
2972 2010-12-20 10:31:35 <m0mchil> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1976.msg25119#msg25119
2973 2010-12-20 10:31:44 <Diablo-D3> say, up their value 1% every time they hand a block over
2974 2010-12-20 10:33:09 <slush_cz> I dont think it should prevent sabotage
2975 2010-12-20 10:33:32 <slush_cz> people already pay for sabotage, why should they became honest when I rise its reward a bit?
2976 2010-12-20 10:33:47 <slush_cz> I don't like block founder
2977 2010-12-20 10:33:55 <slush_cz> block founder premium
2978 2010-12-20 10:34:01 <slush_cz> (pressed enter too early)
2979 2010-12-20 10:34:26 <Diablo-D3> block founder premium, as you call it, works
2980 2010-12-20 10:34:31 <slush_cz> because it makes some worker's reward better than others
2981 2010-12-20 10:34:50 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: but some other worker's reward IS less than others
2982 2010-12-20 10:35:12 <Diablo-D3> because if there is no reward for turning blocks in, why do it at all?
2983 2010-12-20 10:35:33 <slush_cz> it is quite easy to implement, I can count more shares for worker who find the block. But I'm not sure it is good way
2984 2010-12-20 10:35:44 <Diablo-D3> if there is no reward, why do it?
2985 2010-12-20 10:35:48 <Diablo-D3> the pool dies.
2986 2010-12-20 10:35:54 <joe_1> well, there is a small reward, you get 1 share.
2987 2010-12-20 10:35:55 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: They have smoother mining equity
2988 2010-12-20 10:36:03 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: no there isnt
2989 2010-12-20 10:36:08 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: er, I mean no that isnt it
2990 2010-12-20 10:36:29 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Pooled mining is not about have more money than mining standalone, for long term
2991 2010-12-20 10:36:31 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: see above where I say shares are subvalid blocks, blocks are a subset of shares
2992 2010-12-20 10:36:46 <da2ce7> if you started sending me blocks of 128 dificulity, then woudln't I gain 4 shares for each block I produce?
2993 2010-12-20 10:36:50 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: I can consume all the valid blocks, but then send the pool all the valid shares that arent valid blocks
2994 2010-12-20 10:36:57 <da2ce7> *assuming the dificuty is 32 atm
2995 2010-12-20 10:37:31 <Diablo-D3> so, the only way to prevent this optimization is to reward people for producing valid blocks to the pool
2996 2010-12-20 10:37:48 <slush_cz> da2ce7: After I implement dynamic targets, system will of course recalculate worker's shares properly
2997 2010-12-20 10:37:48 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3, the pool could do some calculation and cap you to the theorical limit where you are supposed to have produced a valid block
2998 2010-12-20 10:37:51 <joe_1> diablo if i do not send in the valid block, then I miss out on the 1 share that I would get if i sent it in.
2999 2010-12-20 10:38:00 <joe_1> of course, 1 share is a very small reward
3000 2010-12-20 10:38:07 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: thats not really useful.
3001 2010-12-20 10:38:30 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: yes, but you get the value of all the OTHER shares you sent in when someone ELSE sends a block in
3002 2010-12-20 10:38:35 <Diablo-D3> ergo, its a win win situation
3003 2010-12-20 10:38:37 <da2ce7> slush_cz, are you going to optimize so the worker, on average, produces a block every 10 minutes?
3004 2010-12-20 10:38:50 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: thats kind of pointless
3005 2010-12-20 10:38:52 <slush_cz> da2ce7: Yes, something like this
3006 2010-12-20 10:38:56 <Diablo-D3> he can just count difficulty 1 blocks
3007 2010-12-20 10:39:00 <Diablo-D3> and let clients spam them
3008 2010-12-20 10:39:08 <slush_cz> No, I can recalculate targets
3009 2010-12-20 10:39:15 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: pointless
3010 2010-12-20 10:39:19 <Diablo-D3> easier to count difficultly 1 blocks
3011 2010-12-20 10:39:32 <Diablo-D3> and then split new coins based on share count
3012 2010-12-20 10:39:35 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Easier - yes, pointless - no
3013 2010-12-20 10:39:37 <slush_cz> Depends on view
3014 2010-12-20 10:39:39 <da2ce7> less bandwith if less blocks.
3015 2010-12-20 10:39:44 <m0mchil> let's try again, I have 100% of some pool power, join the pool, sabotage it, reduce pool production 50% (still receiving my share), spent 100% of my power to receive 50% less, other participants also reduced to 50% of their power
3016 2010-12-20 10:39:56 <Diablo-D3> you can cut down on incoming requests by upping difficulty
3017 2010-12-20 10:40:05 <slush_cz> a) It's server performance optimization
3018 2010-12-20 10:40:05 <slush_cz> b) It's client performance optimization
3019 2010-12-20 10:40:08 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt matter what th edifficultly is as long as its static and only changed on new block split
3020 2010-12-20 10:40:17 <Diablo-D3> so you could do, say, 10 difficulty
3021 2010-12-20 10:40:20 <Diablo-D3> its the same thing
3022 2010-12-20 10:40:26 <m0mchil> what is better for me, lose 50% of mine (making others 50% less too), or have my 100%
3023 2010-12-20 10:40:28 <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt change
3024 2010-12-20 10:40:38 <Diablo-D3> m0mchil: you dont LOSE 50% of your mine however
3025 2010-12-20 10:40:47 <Diablo-D3> you lose, 1 shares worth.
3026 2010-12-20 10:40:49 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I get your idea, but I think it is completely useless
3027 2010-12-20 10:41:00 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: it requires less math.
3028 2010-12-20 10:41:07 <Diablo-D3> and it also makes people believe they're doing something
3029 2010-12-20 10:41:15 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3, it's more fun when there's maths
3030 2010-12-20 10:41:24 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: But you lose your power, because you can otherwise use your 4.5 ghash to mine own block
3031 2010-12-20 10:41:32 <m0mchil> Diablo, no :) this is the fallacy
3032 2010-12-20 10:41:41 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: not at all, because I gain everyone else's work too
3033 2010-12-20 10:41:55 <Diablo-D3> if I'm half the pool, not only do I keep all my own blocks, I keep half of everyone else's too
3034 2010-12-20 10:42:07 <m0mchil> you do... because the block you just found will not be find easier soon
3035 2010-12-20 10:42:17 <joe_1> no, you can't turn in the blocks for 50 BTC if you're doing work that the pool gave you to do.
3036 2010-12-20 10:42:30 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: But you can earn instead of make a loss. This is pointless for somebody who own 4.5 ghash
3037 2010-12-20 10:42:30 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: the pool hands me network valid work.
3038 2010-12-20 10:42:39 <MT`AwAy> the pool blocks are only valid with the pool transaction in it
3039 2010-12-20 10:42:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: no, if Im by myself, my miner _just throws out the work_
3040 2010-12-20 10:42:57 <da2ce7> you could make make the ammout of coins rewarded decay after if they have generated say, 10 x 50BTC worth of work, and still havent generated a winning block.
3041 2010-12-20 10:43:06 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: but then none of this is valid at all
3042 2010-12-20 10:43:08 <da2ce7> but that is open to an attack of making a new account.
3043 2010-12-20 10:43:12 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3, the pool gives you network valid work when the pool transaction is in it
3044 2010-12-20 10:43:24 <MT`AwAy> ie, it is only valid when everyone gets their share
3045 2010-12-20 10:43:25 <Diablo-D3> then none of this is valid
3046 2010-12-20 10:43:37 <Diablo-D3> since a pool user can NEVER produce a valid network block
3047 2010-12-20 10:43:45 <Diablo-D3> since we're producing _hashes_
3048 2010-12-20 10:43:56 <Diablo-D3> if we dont know the transaction, we cant produce a valid hash
3049 2010-12-20 10:44:06 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3, you only need the merkle hash
3050 2010-12-20 10:44:12 <Diablo-D3> hrrrrm.
3051 2010-12-20 10:44:15 <Diablo-D3> thats a bad hack
3052 2010-12-20 10:44:24 <MT`AwAy> It prevents bad people like you
3053 2010-12-20 10:44:30 <Diablo-D3> Im bad?
3054 2010-12-20 10:44:31 <MT`AwAy> ;
3055 2010-12-20 10:44:32 <MT`AwAy> :D
3056 2010-12-20 10:44:35 <da2ce7> :P
3057 2010-12-20 10:44:38 <Diablo-D3> I recognize this as a valid optimization
3058 2010-12-20 10:44:48 <Diablo-D3> but if I cant produce network valid blocks, it doesnt matter
3059 2010-12-20 10:44:57 <Diablo-D3> the reward system isnt needed because you cant cheat
3060 2010-12-20 10:45:10 <MT`AwAy> you spend your GPU power only to annoy people and get half of what you could get
3061 2010-12-20 10:45:11 <Diablo-D3> unless you reverse engineer the valid transaction
3062 2010-12-20 10:45:41 <MT`AwAy> (supposing the pool doesn't grow bigger  by then)
3063 2010-12-20 10:45:44 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: well no, the problem is, if I cant reproduce the merkle root, theres no way to cheat
3064 2010-12-20 10:45:46 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: what you mean?
3065 2010-12-20 10:45:48 <da2ce7> diablo-d3, that would take way more work than is required to make a block. I belve.
3066 2010-12-20 10:45:51 <slush_cz> by reversing transaction?
3067 2010-12-20 10:46:00 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: exactly, about 2**32 more times work
3068 2010-12-20 10:46:01 <MT`AwAy> Diablo-D3, if you can reproduce a merkle root, bitcoin  is doomed
3069 2010-12-20 10:46:16 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: basically.
3070 2010-12-20 10:46:22 <Diablo-D3> that has much larger implications
3071 2010-12-20 10:46:38 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: since the work from the pool is posioned, we're in the clear
3072 2010-12-20 10:46:40 <Diablo-D3> people cant cheat
3073 2010-12-20 10:46:48 <Diablo-D3> so theres no actual problem here
3074 2010-12-20 10:47:09 <da2ce7> lol, over the annoying 'evil' waste my power attack
3075 2010-12-20 10:47:13 <joe_1> people can still screw over the pool if they want to, for a very cheap price.
3076 2010-12-20 10:47:18 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: not really
3077 2010-12-20 10:47:31 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: you cant reverse engineer pool valid blocks -> network valid blocks with that method
3078 2010-12-20 10:47:35 <Diablo-D3> not without significantly high cost
3079 2010-12-20 10:47:39 midnightmagic_ has joined
3080 2010-12-20 10:47:46 <Diablo-D3> remember, the pool (should) reject invalid solutions for _all_ shares
3081 2010-12-20 10:48:15 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,calc 2200000
3082 2010-12-20 10:48:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 6 hours, 38 minutes, and 39 seconds
3083 2010-12-20 10:48:17 <Diablo-D3> so all you're doing is clogging the pool server up
3084 2010-12-20 10:48:27 <joe_1> i can sit and collect shares when i generate pool-valid, but not network-valid blocks, but when i get a pool- and network-valid block, just throw it away.
3085 2010-12-20 10:48:34 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: you cant
3086 2010-12-20 10:48:36 <Diablo-D3> oh
3087 2010-12-20 10:48:37 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,calc 4400000
3088 2010-12-20 10:48:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 hours, 19 minutes, and 19 seconds
3089 2010-12-20 10:48:48 <Diablo-D3> you mean throw it away altogether?
3090 2010-12-20 10:48:52 <joe_1> yes
3091 2010-12-20 10:48:55 <Diablo-D3> thats pointless
3092 2010-12-20 10:49:03 <Diablo-D3> you just waste time you could be mining network valid blocks only
3093 2010-12-20 10:49:11 <MT`AwAy> [19:43:20] <MT`AwAy> you spend your GPU power only to annoy people and get half of what you could get
3094 2010-12-20 10:49:36 <Diablo-D3> MT`AwAy: with the scenario joe described, yes
3095 2010-12-20 10:49:37 <MT`AwAy> unless being able to annoy people is valuable to you ;p
3096 2010-12-20 10:49:47 <joe_1> no you get most. let's say it's 100x easier to create a pool block than a network block. then you're only wasting 1% of your resources to screw over the block.
3097 2010-12-20 10:49:55 <da2ce7> slush_cz, have you thought about moving your pooled minding service to a signed TLS key? and making https standard?
3098 2010-12-20 10:50:05 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: not if you're half the pool
3099 2010-12-20 10:50:16 <Diablo-D3> if you're half the pool, you throw out half the winning blocks (== all of yours)
3100 2010-12-20 10:50:33 <slush_cz> da2ce7: You mean access using https?
3101 2010-12-20 10:50:50 <slush_cz> da2ce7: You see https is already working, I should only buy certificate
3102 2010-12-20 10:51:09 <Diablo-D3> you're doing mining over https?
3103 2010-12-20 10:51:09 <da2ce7> yep checked.
3104 2010-12-20 10:51:10 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz, get one for free from startssl,com
3105 2010-12-20 10:51:12 <da2ce7> no
3106 2010-12-20 10:51:16 <da2ce7> just accessing the site.
3107 2010-12-20 10:51:17 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz, get one for free from startssl.com *
3108 2010-12-20 10:51:22 <Diablo-D3> ahh.
3109 2010-12-20 10:51:32 <Diablo-D3> so where can I sign up to belong to the mining pool?
3110 2010-12-20 10:51:34 <Diablo-D3> I wanna test my client
3111 2010-12-20 10:51:42 <slush_cz> da2ce7: Oh, once I will have valid certificate, I can do it
3112 2010-12-20 10:52:06 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I don't like to moving getwork() to https, because there are over 20 requests per second
3113 2010-12-20 10:52:09 <joe_1> but hopefully the pool dies after only a couple days of controlling 50% of it. as people realize they're not getting paid
3114 2010-12-20 10:52:20 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: Thanks for a tip, I will check startssl
3115 2010-12-20 10:52:24 <joe_1> so you only waste a couple days of one half of your output
3116 2010-12-20 10:52:32 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: ,,pool
3117 2010-12-20 10:52:32 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
3118 2010-12-20 10:52:48 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz, I pay them for my certificates, like bitcoin.it (so the certificate has my company name in it)
3119 2010-12-20 10:53:15 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik's CPU miner (instructions)
3120 2010-12-20 10:53:16 acous has joined
3121 2010-12-20 10:53:16 acous has quit (Changing host)
3122 2010-12-20 10:53:16 acous has joined
3123 2010-12-20 10:53:18 * Diablo-D3 snickers
3124 2010-12-20 10:53:19 <slush_cz> MT`AwAy: My only experience is with godaddy and it was strange
3125 2010-12-20 10:53:34 <MT`AwAy> godaddy sucks ;D
3126 2010-12-20 10:53:55 <midnightmagic_> Diablo-D3 what's to snicker about? :-)
3127 2010-12-20 10:54:02 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I should display miners settings directly on site. But generally I dont want to make miner support
3128 2010-12-20 10:54:09 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: by the way, welcome on the board :)
3129 2010-12-20 10:54:35 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic_: a stand alone cpu miner :D
3130 2010-12-20 10:55:10 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Don't say that, I already earn 0.02 bitcoins using 16x Xeon server with CPU miner :)
3131 2010-12-20 10:55:58 <Diablo-D3> Im lazy, whats the rpc for new address?
3132 2010-12-20 10:56:01 <joe_1> i'm thinking of going to the mall and installing a GPU miner on store display computers
3133 2010-12-20 10:56:38 <midnightmagic_> diablo-d3: :-) i love the cpu miner..
3134 2010-12-20 10:56:44 <Diablo-D3> nm its getnewaddress
3135 2010-12-20 10:57:05 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Api
3136 2010-12-20 10:57:18 <joe_1> can someone write/port me a gpu miner that will run stealthily without admin permission on a windows computer?
3137 2010-12-20 10:57:21 <da2ce7> has anyome mad a js miner yet... we could make it a benchmark online. like sunspider :P
3138 2010-12-20 10:57:40 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: any will that already has drivers installed
3139 2010-12-20 10:57:51 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: that will be so fucking slow
3140 2010-12-20 10:58:09 <joe_1> what drivers does it need? special opencl drivers for the gpu?
3141 2010-12-20 10:58:32 <Diablo-D3> yes
3142 2010-12-20 10:58:36 <Diablo-D3> nvidia shit already ships with it
3143 2010-12-20 10:58:41 <Diablo-D3> and amd is doing that soon
3144 2010-12-20 10:58:42 <da2ce7> well once we have webCL it will be good :D
3145 2010-12-20 10:58:49 <Diablo-D3> it was supposed to be for 10.12
3146 2010-12-20 10:59:01 <Diablo-D3> but 10.12 windows has with and without versions
3147 2010-12-20 10:59:06 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: also
3148 2010-12-20 10:59:07 <Diablo-D3> osx always does
3149 2010-12-20 10:59:16 <Diablo-D3> osx contains its own opencl impl, it doesnt use amd or nvidia
3150 2010-12-20 10:59:19 <joe_1> ok, i won't be able to install the drivers. so i'll be on the lookout for computers with nvidia graphics
3151 2010-12-20 10:59:34 <Diablo-D3> well, nvidia is iffy too
3152 2010-12-20 10:59:42 <Diablo-D3> oems love to ship out of date or stripped down drivers
3153 2010-12-20 11:00:09 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: okay, so how the hell do I setup my miner =P
3154 2010-12-20 11:00:28 <MT`AwAy> slush_cz, how do I setup my own pool? :P
3155 2010-12-20 11:00:31 <Diablo-D3> use a host of user:password@whatip?
3156 2010-12-20 11:00:32 <joe_1> what graphics cards to macs ship with these days?
3157 2010-12-20 11:00:53 <da2ce7> is it possible to generate sha256 fast with normal OpenGL instructions?
3158 2010-12-20 11:00:59 <Diablo-D3> wait I found it
3159 2010-12-20 11:01:00 <Diablo-D3> nm
3160 2010-12-20 11:01:02 <da2ce7> insted of useing openCL?
3161 2010-12-20 11:01:12 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: not directly
3162 2010-12-20 11:01:33 <Diablo-D3> basically, you'd have a shader that writes to a texture
3163 2010-12-20 11:01:43 <Diablo-D3> and then very slowly read back the entire texture
3164 2010-12-20 11:01:50 <Diablo-D3> you'd potentially lose about half your speed
3165 2010-12-20 11:02:03 <Diablo-D3> and int ops in glsl sucks
3166 2010-12-20 11:02:07 <slush_cz> da2ce7:  I started with JS miner, but it was UGLY SLOW
3167 2010-12-20 11:02:12 <nathan7> :o
3168 2010-12-20 11:02:35 <da2ce7> slush_cz even with inbuilt hardware cypto functions?
3169 2010-12-20 11:02:49 <da2ce7> *er native
3170 2010-12-20 11:02:50 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Say, Diablo's minner accept some parameters, you know? :)
3171 2010-12-20 11:03:35 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I figured it out, I just have to use --host mining.bitcoin.cz and --port 8332
3172 2010-12-20 11:03:38 <slush_cz> . .... DiabloMiner -u marekp.test -p <pass>-o mining.bitcoin.cz -r 8332
3173 2010-12-20 11:03:45 <joe_1> how many blocks per day can i expect to generate off of newer (<2 years) mac desktop computers?
3174 2010-12-20 11:03:59 <Diablo-D3> joe_1: that question is a) invalid, b) requires a time machine
3175 2010-12-20 11:04:14 <joe_1> why, i'm not asking about computers from the future
3176 2010-12-20 11:04:18 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
3177 2010-12-20 11:04:23 <Diablo-D3> figure out what chips in your box
3178 2010-12-20 11:04:35 <Diablo-D3> and then take about 3/4th of that because osx's opencl impl sucks
3179 2010-12-20 11:04:37 <joe_1> i don't know, i just know they're fairly new apple desktops
3180 2010-12-20 11:04:58 <Diablo-D3> apple ships shit gpus
3181 2010-12-20 11:05:04 <Diablo-D3> often nvidia trash
3182 2010-12-20 11:05:15 <joe_1> so could you ballpark which chip from that list they would have?
3183 2010-12-20 11:05:29 <Diablo-D3> technically, yes
3184 2010-12-20 11:05:36 <Diablo-D3> you're in the ballpark of "too fucking slow to care"
3185 2010-12-20 11:05:53 <joe_1> even if i had, say, 80 of these systems?
3186 2010-12-20 11:05:54 <da2ce7> lol
3187 2010-12-20 11:06:08 <Diablo-D3> you would be going fast slowly.
3188 2010-12-20 11:06:21 <Diablo-D3> it'd cut down on your heating bill, though
3189 2010-12-20 11:07:05 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: what is this max jobs thing?
3190 2010-12-20 11:07:07 <da2ce7> the only way that it could be fast is if they were really new powermacs that have the 5xxx ati gpu... you'd then need to install linux
3191 2010-12-20 11:07:11 <da2ce7> :P
3192 2010-12-20 11:07:33 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: no, you'd still get about 3/4th speed
3193 2010-12-20 11:07:49 <Diablo-D3> apple maintains complete gl/cl stacks for both nvidia and amd
3194 2010-12-20 11:08:12 <Diablo-D3> they're not entirely apple's creation, obviously
3195 2010-12-20 11:08:16 <Diablo-D3> but the front end shit IS theirs
3196 2010-12-20 11:08:25 <Diablo-D3> including the shitty cl->il compiler
3197 2010-12-20 11:08:33 <joe_1> i'll have to find out if these are powermacs
3198 2010-12-20 11:08:36 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: How many getwork can perform client at once
3199 2010-12-20 11:08:40 <da2ce7> even if you are running linux or windows, I thought that boot camp uses normal windows graphics drivers.
3200 2010-12-20 11:08:50 <slush_cz> Yours is asking for 6 jobs on 5970
3201 2010-12-20 11:08:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: 10 is low, my miner uses three per gpu
3202 2010-12-20 11:09:03 <Diablo-D3> so a 4 gpu user will have threads halting
3203 2010-12-20 11:09:16 <slush_cz> Yes, then I will see it my log and rise it a bit
3204 2010-12-20 11:09:17 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: it does.
3205 2010-12-20 11:09:28 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: might as well just make it 12 now.
3206 2010-12-20 11:09:34 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: There will be some kind of autodetection soon
3207 2010-12-20 11:09:37 <da2ce7> slush_cz, how many workers do you have connected that are hashing above 250Mhash/s
3208 2010-12-20 11:09:54 <slush_cz> Not too much. Maybe 10
3209 2010-12-20 11:09:56 <joe_1> ;;rate,4ghash
3210 2010-12-20 11:09:56 <gribble> Error: "rate,4ghash" is not a valid command.
3211 2010-12-20 11:10:00 <joe_1> ;;list
3212 2010-12-20 11:10:00 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, Games, Google, Herald, Internet, Later, MarketMonitor, Math, MessageParser, Misc, MtgoxMonitor, Network, Note, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Relay, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, Unix, User, Utilities, and (1 more message)
3213 2010-12-20 11:10:02 <slush_cz> I don't see their hashspeed
3214 2010-12-20 11:10:13 <Diablo-D3> you can roughly estimate hashspeed though
3215 2010-12-20 11:10:16 <joe_1> ;;time,4ghash
3216 2010-12-20 11:10:17 <gribble> Error: "time,4ghash" is not a valid command.
3217 2010-12-20 11:10:35 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I know, but I did not implemented that on worker level yet
3218 2010-12-20 11:10:45 <Diablo-D3> ahh
3219 2010-12-20 11:10:56 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: It is what I already do for whole cluster on stats page
3220 2010-12-20 11:10:57 <Diablo-D3> wee I've already found 6 blocks
3221 2010-12-20 11:11:20 <slush_cz> How many cores do you use? I don't see any problem with your worker yet
3222 2010-12-20 11:11:27 <slush_cz> on 10 max_jobs
3223 2010-12-20 11:11:31 <Diablo-D3> 1
3224 2010-12-20 11:11:38 <Diablo-D3> but, say, art could have problems
3225 2010-12-20 11:11:43 <slush_cz> :-D
3226 2010-12-20 11:11:49 <Diablo-D3> since hes doing nominally 8 gpus
3227 2010-12-20 11:11:53 <da2ce7> slush_cz, maybe later on you could have a option called 'put my user in the rankings' and create a list of the users who generate the most successfull blocks.
3228 2010-12-20 11:11:54 <Diablo-D3> 4 5970 in a single box
3229 2010-12-20 11:12:11 BCBot has joined
3230 2010-12-20 11:12:12 <slush_cz> da2ce7: You are talking about what I already have on my todo :)
3231 2010-12-20 11:12:15 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,calc 1070000
3232 2010-12-20 11:12:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1070000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 13 hours, 39 minutes, and 39 seconds
3233 2010-12-20 11:12:23 <UukGoblin> hrm
3234 2010-12-20 11:12:31 <joe_1> ;;bc,calc 4000000
3235 2010-12-20 11:12:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 hours, 39 minutes, and 15 seconds
3236 2010-12-20 11:12:33 <UukGoblin> nothing generated since saturday 14:00...
3237 2010-12-20 11:12:50 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,estimate
3238 2010-12-20 11:12:51 <gribble> 14327.03672075
3239 2010-12-20 11:12:52 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I mainly care about stability and payments, I made big changes last days on that. Stats would be nice, but not critical
3240 2010-12-20 11:12:58 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,stats
3241 2010-12-20 11:13:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98540 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 243 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 10 hours, 38 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14327.03672075
3242 2010-12-20 11:13:02 <slush_cz> but internally I already know that number
3243 2010-12-20 11:13:07 <Diablo-D3> so
3244 2010-12-20 11:13:17 <Diablo-D3> how many mhash are we doing?
3245 2010-12-20 11:13:25 <slush_cz> see stats
3246 2010-12-20 11:13:28 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, you didn't write any "OC test-mode" version of the miner, have you?
3247 2010-12-20 11:13:37 <da2ce7> slush_cz, yep I understand! stability first, then can you can take out the strippers.
3248 2010-12-20 11:13:44 <slush_cz> Those are per-round numbers, so when you attach new gpu in the middle, stats will go up slowly
3249 2010-12-20 11:13:48 <Diablo-D3> 4398
3250 2010-12-20 11:14:02 <slush_cz> yep
3251 2010-12-20 11:14:10 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: --debug
3252 2010-12-20 11:14:13 <UukGoblin> ArtForz has 4x 5970 in one box? nice... must be good with heating
3253 2010-12-20 11:14:29 <Diablo-D3> art has 5 such boxes
3254 2010-12-20 11:14:38 <Diablo-D3> and 24 5970 total plus other lesser shit
3255 2010-12-20 11:14:45 <UukGoblin> hrm
3256 2010-12-20 11:14:49 <nathan7> STRIPPERS?
3257 2010-12-20 11:14:53 <nathan7> What am I missing?
3258 2010-12-20 11:14:54 <UukGoblin> wonder how he cools them, last time I remember saying he had trouble
3259 2010-12-20 11:15:04 <Diablo-D3> he built 5 custom boxes
3260 2010-12-20 11:15:17 <midnightmagic_> diablo: and didn't he order another 24 5970 for a new rack of them?
3261 2010-12-20 11:15:25 <Diablo-D3> two 5970 sit in the mobo, then two 5970 physically sit above the mobo connected with a x16 riser
3262 2010-12-20 11:15:27 <midnightmagic_> "rack" used loosely of course.
3263 2010-12-20 11:15:33 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I mean a mode like you run a predefined set of data through the GPU and report if it miscalculates stuff
3264 2010-12-20 11:15:44 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: oh, 11 shares already. You are going to be rich :)
3265 2010-12-20 11:15:45 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: no, but it bitches loudly
3266 2010-12-20 11:15:48 * nathan7 shouts YES in the direction of midnightmagic_ 
3267 2010-12-20 11:15:52 <UukGoblin> ah, riser
3268 2010-12-20 11:15:52 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: 12
3269 2010-12-20 11:16:03 <UukGoblin> I was thinking of a riser
3270 2010-12-20 11:16:13 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: it recalculates the entire header's hash before submitting
3271 2010-12-20 11:16:15 <midnightmagic_> what a turkey. :)
3272 2010-12-20 11:16:32 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: if H != 0 (kernel only returns nonces that H == 0), it bitches
3273 2010-12-20 11:16:32 <da2ce7> ;;bc;calc 1
3274 2010-12-20 11:16:32 <gribble> Error: "bc;calc" is not a valid command.
3275 2010-12-20 11:16:39 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: outside of debug mode it bitches I mean
3276 2010-12-20 11:16:48 <da2ce7> ;;bc,help
3277 2010-12-20 11:16:48 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Are you going to test pool, join pool or sabotage it? :-D
3278 2010-12-20 11:16:48 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
3279 2010-12-20 11:16:49 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,calc 1
3280 2010-12-20 11:16:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1668 years, 33 weeks, 0 days, 22 hours, 46 minutes, and 37 seconds
3281 2010-12-20 11:16:59 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: join, I might as well
3282 2010-12-20 11:16:59 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, cool
3283 2010-12-20 11:17:01 <da2ce7> ;;bc,calc 1
3284 2010-12-20 11:17:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1668 years, 33 weeks, 0 days, 22 hours, 46 minutes, and 37 seconds
3285 2010-12-20 11:17:06 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: it has four states, three of them are valid
3286 2010-12-20 11:17:10 <UukGoblin> what does "Attempt X found on..." mean?
3287 2010-12-20 11:17:24 darkskiez has joined
3288 2010-12-20 11:17:33 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, but generally, that'll only show a problem once a block is found
3289 2010-12-20 11:17:38 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
3290 2010-12-20 11:17:39 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.275,"low":0.24,"vol":10908,"buy":0.251,"sell":0.27,"last":0.25}}
3291 2010-12-20 11:17:48 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: H == 0, but hash doesnt solve target; H != 0, hardware obviously goofed; H == 0, hash solves target, profit; H == 0, hash solves target, client rejected hash
3292 2010-12-20 11:17:52 <joe_1> i need 5970s
3293 2010-12-20 11:17:59 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: Attempt means H == 0
3294 2010-12-20 11:18:02 <joe_1> ;;bc,calc 0
3295 2010-12-20 11:18:03 <gribble> Error: float division
3296 2010-12-20 11:18:10 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: thats the same as difficulty of 1
3297 2010-12-20 11:18:11 <da2ce7> buy them. if you can. they are hard to find.
3298 2010-12-20 11:18:12 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, right
3299 2010-12-20 11:18:24 <UukGoblin> so, H != 0 is reported outside debug mode, right?
3300 2010-12-20 11:18:33 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: my 75 mhash 4850 generates 50 H == 0 in 45 minutes
3301 2010-12-20 11:18:36 <UukGoblin> (I probably need to upgrade to the latest git too)
3302 2010-12-20 11:18:39 <da2ce7> I'm looking for some that are not 'power colour'
3303 2010-12-20 11:18:40 <Diablo-D3> yes, its reported out of debug mode
3304 2010-12-20 11:19:00 <UukGoblin> cool
3305 2010-12-20 11:19:02 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: theres no point in feeding it known data because H == 0 happen frequently
3306 2010-12-20 11:19:02 <UukGoblin> thanks
3307 2010-12-20 11:19:11 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: if your shits broken, you will find out quickly
3308 2010-12-20 11:19:14 <UukGoblin> yeah, makes sense
3309 2010-12-20 11:19:51 <UukGoblin> so basically you're saying that to test OC you should run with --debug and make sure you get a H == 0 every so often
3310 2010-12-20 11:20:05 <da2ce7> lol 4x crossfire is kinda cool for gaming
3311 2010-12-20 11:20:06 <Diablo-D3> you dont need debug for OC mode technically
3312 2010-12-20 11:20:17 <Diablo-D3> it will bitch if your shits broken
3313 2010-12-20 11:20:21 <da2ce7> :P but it sucks, the latency is huge
3314 2010-12-20 11:20:42 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: its impossible to have a broken gpu that only produces "valid" hashes that constantly get rejected somewhere
3315 2010-12-20 11:20:55 <UukGoblin> ok
3316 2010-12-20 11:20:55 <da2ce7> UukGroblin, your computer will freeze.
3317 2010-12-20 11:20:56 <Diablo-D3> it'll have to produce H != 0 hashes and mark them as valid
3318 2010-12-20 11:21:04 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: no
3319 2010-12-20 11:21:10 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, ArtForz was reporting miscalculations before the computer freezes
3320 2010-12-20 11:21:26 <Diablo-D3> art was watching the drivers going apeshit, really
3321 2010-12-20 11:21:45 <da2ce7> myabe cause he isn't using windows... on windows it just feezes.
3322 2010-12-20 11:21:53 <Diablo-D3> windows it tries to restart the card
3323 2010-12-20 11:21:53 <UukGoblin> I'm on a6a5b27b88f4c73f312303fc65e41870b39a308d of Diablo-D3's, but I'll upgrade before doing the tests anyway
3324 2010-12-20 11:22:04 <Diablo-D3> you can turn that off in the driver
3325 2010-12-20 11:22:22 <da2ce7> hmm, that hasn't happend to me. all that happens is a feeze and I've had to turn the power off.
3326 2010-12-20 11:22:31 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: thats nov 26th
3327 2010-12-20 11:22:51 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: yeah, turn the automatic recover off
3328 2010-12-20 11:23:13 <da2ce7> how do I do that?
3329 2010-12-20 11:23:36 <Diablo-D3> its in the control panel options somewhere
3330 2010-12-20 11:23:44 <UukGoblin> I've seen weird 5970 breakages where someone said it basically silently switches off one core and continues on another
3331 2010-12-20 11:23:46 <da2ce7> ati or windows?
3332 2010-12-20 11:23:49 <Diablo-D3> ati
3333 2010-12-20 11:23:51 <UukGoblin> s/core/gpu/
3334 2010-12-20 11:24:10 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: the driver _should_ turn off other cores when crossfire is on when running opencl apps
3335 2010-12-20 11:24:17 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: opencl is 120% broken on crossfire
3336 2010-12-20 11:24:25 <Diablo-D3> the only way to use both GPUs is turn crossfire off
3337 2010-12-20 11:25:22 <UukGoblin> hm, I do have crossfire off
3338 2010-12-20 11:25:37 <UukGoblin> aticonfig --lsch
3339 2010-12-20 11:25:37 <UukGoblin> No CrossFire chains defined
3340 2010-12-20 11:25:57 <Diablo-D3> you turned it off in the xorg.conf?
3341 2010-12-20 11:26:13 <UukGoblin> no
3342 2010-12-20 11:26:16 <da2ce7> I'm running crossfire x on all 4 GPU
3343 2010-12-20 11:26:22 <da2ce7> and useing open CL
3344 2010-12-20 11:26:23 <Diablo-D3> aticonfig cant turn off crossfire on linux
3345 2010-12-20 11:26:32 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: 3 gpus are producing useless shit
3346 2010-12-20 11:26:32 <UukGoblin> the xorg.conf was made by aticonfig --initial -f --adapter=all
3347 2010-12-20 11:26:49 <da2ce7> no, they are generateing blocks all the time.
3348 2010-12-20 11:26:51 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: you didnt manually turn crossfire off with aticonfig?
3349 2010-12-20 11:26:55 <UukGoblin> no
3350 2010-12-20 11:26:55 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: with my miner?
3351 2010-12-20 11:27:01 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: then you're fine, its actually off
3352 2010-12-20 11:27:05 <da2ce7> nope python.
3353 2010-12-20 11:27:10 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: try with my miner,
3354 2010-12-20 11:27:14 <UukGoblin> good.
3355 2010-12-20 11:27:18 <Diablo-D3> it will bitch loudly because a lot of blocks will be broken
3356 2010-12-20 11:27:32 <Diablo-D3> m0's does NOT check if the solution is actually valid
3357 2010-12-20 11:27:57 <slush_cz> whoo, mtgox on .279
3358 2010-12-20 11:28:00 <Diablo-D3> mine does out of extreme paranoia
3359 2010-12-20 11:28:12 <da2ce7> hmmm, well all the blocks that i'm submiting to slush_cz seem to be valid.
3360 2010-12-20 11:28:23 <da2ce7> I'm generating at arround the expected speed.
3361 2010-12-20 11:28:28 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, well, the stock client will also check that
3362 2010-12-20 11:28:31 <Diablo-D3> khash meter will read correctly
3363 2010-12-20 11:28:40 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: yeah, but m0's miner will say valid block found when its not
3364 2010-12-20 11:28:42 <UukGoblin> but it's better to see it in the miner's output
3365 2010-12-20 11:28:56 <Diablo-D3> mine ONLY says valid block found when bitcoind agrees
3366 2010-12-20 11:29:39 <da2ce7> m0's latest says "20/12/2010 22:21, 9d02d404, accepted" I think that it checks now.
3367 2010-12-20 11:29:47 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: still, try with mine
3368 2010-12-20 11:29:58 <Diablo-D3> mine runs faster than his anyhow
3369 2010-12-20 11:30:04 <UukGoblin> so I was just unlucky during these 40 hours even though it should've found 2 blocks avg
3370 2010-12-20 11:30:05 <da2ce7> I will.  Last time the computer went to shit.
3371 2010-12-20 11:30:07 RichardG has joined
3372 2010-12-20 11:30:21 <Diablo-D3> yes, my miner is VERY optimal
3373 2010-12-20 11:30:38 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: This is not a teleshopping :)
3374 2010-12-20 11:31:01 * Diablo-D3 is now up to 22 shares
3375 2010-12-20 11:31:32 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: One beginner's question - how are you doing those ***  on IRC ;)
3376 2010-12-20 11:31:38 <Diablo-D3> ?
3377 2010-12-20 11:31:44 <da2ce7> it is / me
3378 2010-12-20 11:31:48 <Diablo-D3> you mean /me?
3379 2010-12-20 11:31:49 * slush_cz test
3380 2010-12-20 11:31:51 <slush_cz> oh
3381 2010-12-20 11:31:51 <UukGoblin> /me
3382 2010-12-20 11:31:52 * da2ce7 is doing /me
3383 2010-12-20 11:31:55 <slush_cz> thanks
3384 2010-12-20 11:32:03 <Diablo-D3> hehhh
3385 2010-12-20 11:32:23 <slush_cz> sorry :) I'm using irc firstly
3386 2010-12-20 11:32:29 <slush_cz> because of bitcoins
3387 2010-12-20 11:33:48 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, how do I set a differnt username for each GPU?
3388 2010-12-20 11:33:50 <UukGoblin> bitcoin's one awesome strength is the great support we get on IRC :-]
3389 2010-12-20 11:33:56 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: you dont
3390 2010-12-20 11:34:05 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: you'd give the pool one username
3391 2010-12-20 11:34:08 <Diablo-D3> since its one miner
3392 2010-12-20 11:34:16 <slush_cz> da2ce7: If you have more than two cores, tell me
3393 2010-12-20 11:34:25 <Diablo-D3> more than 3 cores, actually
3394 2010-12-20 11:34:27 <da2ce7> yep, I have 4.
3395 2010-12-20 11:34:35 <slush_cz> two 5970?
3396 2010-12-20 11:34:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: like I said, bump to 12
3397 2010-12-20 11:34:39 <da2ce7> yep
3398 2010-12-20 11:34:48 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: 12 will be ok for 2x5970, right?
3399 2010-12-20 11:34:52 <Diablo-D3> yes
3400 2010-12-20 11:34:55 <Diablo-D3> or 4 of anything else
3401 2010-12-20 11:34:56 Shadowolf_ has joined
3402 2010-12-20 11:35:08 <da2ce7> so I'll just use just one of my miners?
3403 2010-12-20 11:35:12 <sneak> hi guys
3404 2010-12-20 11:35:25 <sneak> what's up
3405 2010-12-20 11:35:32 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: my miner really IS just one miner, no matter how many gpus it has
3406 2010-12-20 11:35:36 <slush_cz> da2ce7: What's your worker name?
3407 2010-12-20 11:35:39 <da2ce7> 32 or 64 bit java?
3408 2010-12-20 11:35:44 <da2ce7> um...
3409 2010-12-20 11:35:56 <da2ce7> da2ce7.one
3410 2010-12-20 11:36:07 Abhish has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3411 2010-12-20 11:36:08 <slush_cz> I just changed defaults to 12 per worker in code, will be available for new workers after system restart
3412 2010-12-20 11:36:20 <slush_cz> and i'm going to change yours one directly, da2ce7
3413 2010-12-20 11:36:26 <Diablo-D3> my miner could have over 9000 gpus, if you could find a box that fits that many
3414 2010-12-20 11:36:30 <Diablo-D3> and its still one miner
3415 2010-12-20 11:36:53 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Well, but it is not common situation
3416 2010-12-20 11:37:03 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: 4 or less is common
3417 2010-12-20 11:37:09 <Diablo-D3> you're not likely to see some douche with more than 4
3418 2010-12-20 11:37:09 <slush_cz> I will be very helpful with configuration on pool if you bring 9000gpus :))
3419 2010-12-20 11:37:18 <Diablo-D3> he has to use 5970 or 6990s on a 4 slot board
3420 2010-12-20 11:38:00 <slush_cz> oh, have to restart cluster
3421 2010-12-20 11:38:13 <Diablo-D3> your pool managers are on a cluster?
3422 2010-12-20 11:38:27 <Diablo-D3> LOL
3423 2010-12-20 11:38:30 <Diablo-D3> delicious errors!
3424 2010-12-20 11:38:35 <slush_cz> :) i know
3425 2010-12-20 11:38:38 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 6:36:33 AM] ERROR: Can't connect to Bitcoin: Failed to communicate with bitcoind: <html>
3426 2010-12-20 11:38:38 <Diablo-D3> <head><title>502 Bad Gateway</title></head>
3427 2010-12-20 11:38:38 <Diablo-D3> <body bgcolor="white">
3428 2010-12-20 11:38:38 <Diablo-D3> <center><h1>502 Bad Gateway</h1></center>
3429 2010-12-20 11:38:38 <Diablo-D3> <hr><center>nginx/0.7.67</center>
3430 2010-12-20 11:38:39 <Diablo-D3> </body>
3431 2010-12-20 11:38:43 <Diablo-D3> </html>
3432 2010-12-20 11:38:45 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahahaha
3433 2010-12-20 11:38:49 <slush_cz> done, da2ce7, you can start that shit:)
3434 2010-12-20 11:39:03 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: you're using sdk 2.1, right?
3435 2010-12-20 11:39:15 foobar__ has joined
3436 2010-12-20 11:39:45 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: at least you use ngnix
3437 2010-12-20 11:39:50 <Diablo-D3> and not apache
3438 2010-12-20 11:39:52 * Diablo-D3 hates apache
3439 2010-12-20 11:40:47 <lfm> hey it sez at boing-boing the US is claiming wikileaks has WMDs
3440 2010-12-20 11:41:32 <Diablo-D3> lfm: that was a joke that a UK tabloid published
3441 2010-12-20 11:41:43 <lfm> no kiddin
3442 2010-12-20 11:42:11 <da2ce7> diablo how do i set the frames on one gpu to something high but keep the others low?
3443 2010-12-20 11:42:26 <da2ce7> oooh bad blocks!
3444 2010-12-20 11:42:37 <da2ce7> maybe I have been generating at half speed...
3445 2010-12-20 11:42:42 <da2ce7> that would beed werid.
3446 2010-12-20 11:42:46 <Diablo-D3> half? 1/4th speed
3447 2010-12-20 11:42:52 <Diablo-D3> all gpus beyond the first produce crap
3448 2010-12-20 11:43:02 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: nginx is fast and easy to configure, I migrated from apache years ago
3449 2010-12-20 11:43:03 <Diablo-D3> and btw, you cant sent different frames
3450 2010-12-20 11:43:31 <Diablo-D3> but you dont have an uneven stack
3451 2010-12-20 11:43:34 <Diablo-D3> AND
3452 2010-12-20 11:43:40 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt matter for frames anyhow
3453 2010-12-20 11:43:48 <Diablo-D3> all gpus are self-balancing individually
3454 2010-12-20 11:44:14 <Diablo-D3> I could take a 5870 and a 46xx, and they'd balance out so fps individually is maintained
3455 2010-12-20 11:44:27 <nathan7> slush_cz: flametime!
3456 2010-12-20 11:44:29 <nathan7> lighttpd ftw
3457 2010-12-20 11:44:35 <Diablo-D3> lighty has issues
3458 2010-12-20 11:44:42 <nathan7> Like?
3459 2010-12-20 11:44:44 <Diablo-D3> heavy/clever ddosses can segfault lighty
3460 2010-12-20 11:44:47 <nathan7> :o
3461 2010-12-20 11:44:48 <slush_cz> nathan7: :) no, i'm also ok with lighttpd
3462 2010-12-20 11:44:49 <Diablo-D3> cherokee and ngnix is immune
3463 2010-12-20 11:44:58 <nathan7> Nothing is immune
3464 2010-12-20 11:45:05 <slush_cz> guys, stop :)
3465 2010-12-20 11:45:08 <Diablo-D3> nathan7: they wont segfault
3466 2010-12-20 11:45:12 <nathan7> mhm
3467 2010-12-20 11:45:12 <Diablo-D3> the box will just slow to a stop
3468 2010-12-20 11:45:16 <slush_cz> has no sense.
3469 2010-12-20 11:45:24 <nathan7> slush_cz: Hey, I'm the op here! =p
3470 2010-12-20 11:45:30 <Diablo-D3> but hey, if you're on lighty, thats fine
3471 2010-12-20 11:45:39 <Diablo-D3> lighty, cherokee, and ngnix are all written the same way, really
3472 2010-12-20 11:45:40 <slush_cz> :)
3473 2010-12-20 11:45:49 <Diablo-D3> async nonblocking event cycling
3474 2010-12-20 11:46:06 <nathan7> I ran lighttpd on 32M of RAM, 266MHz, and it was fast
3475 2010-12-20 11:46:24 <Diablo-D3> the three will come out to be all basically the same speed
3476 2010-12-20 11:46:36 <Diablo-D3> and for straight out static delivery, varnish beats them all
3477 2010-12-20 11:47:07 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3478 2010-12-20 11:48:17 hoxqot has joined
3479 2010-12-20 11:48:57 <nathan7> Diablo-D3: :o
3480 2010-12-20 11:49:18 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3481 2010-12-20 11:49:23 <Diablo-D3> but its a caching proxy, not a web server
3482 2010-12-20 11:49:29 <Diablo-D3> you still need one of the three behind it
3483 2010-12-20 11:51:24 <nathan7> mhm
3484 2010-12-20 11:53:33 mtgox has joined
3485 2010-12-20 11:57:17 davout has joined
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3487 2010-12-20 11:58:24 doublec has joined
3488 2010-12-20 11:58:33 <RichardG> <@nathan7> I ran lighttpd on 32M of RAM, 266MHz, and it was fast
3489 2010-12-20 11:58:39 <RichardG> I ran apache2 on 64M, 233 MHz.
3490 2010-12-20 11:58:41 <RichardG> was fast.
3491 2010-12-20 11:58:52 <RichardG> even with PHP added
3492 2010-12-20 11:59:01 <Diablo-D3> that doesn't qualify as fast
3493 2010-12-20 11:59:43 <slush_cz> RichardG: You cannot compare 233MHz machine with 32 core beasts which I care about
3494 2010-12-20 12:00:13 <RichardG> if I remember correctly, didn't take 1 second to load a php page full of system-info-wise passthru()s over LAN
3495 2010-12-20 12:00:20 <slush_cz> RichardG: Of course lighttpd is fast. No complains. But everything need its own
3496 2010-12-20 12:00:38 <RichardG> and it could at least load phpsysinfo
3497 2010-12-20 12:00:54 <RichardG> I tried that when it ran Windows 2000 - loading phpsysinfo froze everything
3498 2010-12-20 12:01:52 mndrix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3499 2010-12-20 12:03:01 satamusic has joined
3500 2010-12-20 12:07:44 da2ce7 has joined
3501 2010-12-20 12:07:49 <da2ce7> ok
3502 2010-12-20 12:07:51 <da2ce7> back
3503 2010-12-20 12:07:51 midnightmagic_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3504 2010-12-20 12:07:58 <da2ce7> unplaned shutdown
3505 2010-12-20 12:08:28 <Diablo-D3> heh
3506 2010-12-20 12:10:11 Shadowolf_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3507 2010-12-20 12:10:49 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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3514 2010-12-20 12:23:44 <da2ce7> how do I properly disable crossfire again?
3515 2010-12-20 12:25:46 <Amiga4000> ;;bc,calc 80000
3516 2010-12-20 12:25:47 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 1 week, 0 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes, and 56 seconds
3517 2010-12-20 12:25:54 <Amiga4000> ;;bc,calc 40000
3518 2010-12-20 12:25:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 40000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 25 minutes, and 52 seconds
3519 2010-12-20 12:26:36 foobar__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3520 2010-12-20 12:33:10 satamusic has joined
3521 2010-12-20 12:35:19 m0mchil has left ()
3522 2010-12-20 12:36:16 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 150000
3523 2010-12-20 12:36:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 4 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 53 seconds
3524 2010-12-20 12:36:54 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, how do you disalbe crossfire again?
3525 2010-12-20 12:37:10 <da2ce7> i've disabled crossfire x, but not the inbuilt one.
3526 2010-12-20 12:38:06 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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3529 2010-12-20 12:43:24 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: crossfire x is the new name for crossfire... its all the same thing
3530 2010-12-20 12:43:37 <Diablo-D3> 2x 5970 produces a chain with 4 gpus in it
3531 2010-12-20 12:43:44 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: you add the thing to xorg.conf to disable it
3532 2010-12-20 12:44:30 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3533 2010-12-20 12:44:40 bencoder has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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3548 2010-12-20 13:50:37 gavinandresen has joined
3549 2010-12-20 14:02:42 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: On my pool is piece of 'proprietary' API, which would improve speed of miners a lot. I want to ask you and m0mchil if you are interested to implement this.
3550 2010-12-20 14:02:49 <slush_cz> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/getworks/10
3551 2010-12-20 14:03:03 <slush_cz> where 10 is any number up to max_jobs
3552 2010-12-20 14:04:34 <RichardG> for fun and time-spending, I'm running a mass kml ip resolver I wrote on the bitcoin world map
3553 2010-12-20 14:04:47 <RichardG> still ~1.5/6 of the map done
3554 2010-12-20 14:04:55 <RichardG> on a core i5
3555 2010-12-20 14:04:58 <slush_cz> how it works?
3556 2010-12-20 14:05:12 <RichardG> it just takes the ips off kml placemark names and resolves then
3557 2010-12-20 14:05:19 <RichardG> still ~1.5/6 done on a core i5 and 2mbps line
3558 2010-12-20 14:05:28 <RichardG> *resolves them
3559 2010-12-20 14:11:19 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_to_use_the_API,_JSON-RPC <- added syntax coloration :D
3560 2010-12-20 14:12:00 <gavinandresen> Nice!  but can you make the green a little bit more purpley, and make the blue a tiny bit more orange?
3561 2010-12-20 14:12:03 <gavinandresen> (KIDDING)
3562 2010-12-20 14:12:59 <RichardG> the bitcoin world map should resolve peers it finds also
3563 2010-12-20 14:14:01 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3564 2010-12-20 14:14:03 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3565 2010-12-20 14:14:07 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: hrrrm, theres no way to implement that
3566 2010-12-20 14:14:14 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: if my miner cant get work, it stalls.
3567 2010-12-20 14:14:52 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: (well, one of the 3 execution threads stall, and they all getwork initally at the same time)
3568 2010-12-20 14:15:07 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: actually, I'm overstating that
3569 2010-12-20 14:15:23 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt stall, it just continues mining on an out of date getwork
3570 2010-12-20 14:15:30 <Diablo-D3> which is just as bad, really
3571 2010-12-20 14:15:33 darrob has joined
3572 2010-12-20 14:15:44 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: ergo, Im not sure what your API does
3573 2010-12-20 14:16:30 da2ce7 has joined
3574 2010-12-20 14:16:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I cant batch grab, nor reuse.
3575 2010-12-20 14:17:06 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, have got it working on two gpu's, except java keeps on crashing.
3576 2010-12-20 14:17:14 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: pastebin
3577 2010-12-20 14:17:27 <da2ce7> how do I get the dump?
3578 2010-12-20 14:17:41 <Diablo-D3> you... dont?
3579 2010-12-20 14:17:45 <Diablo-D3> just pastebin the error on the console
3580 2010-12-20 14:17:56 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3581 2010-12-20 14:18:55 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I didn't catch it. Why are you not able to make 1 request for (say) 3 works instead of 3 request in line?
3582 2010-12-20 14:19:04 <RichardG> MT`AwAy: any chance about WikiBot being able to detect tor nodes?
3583 2010-12-20 14:19:50 <MT`AwAy> RichardG: yes, soon,
3584 2010-12-20 14:19:54 <MT`AwAy> I'm planning on that
3585 2010-12-20 14:20:16 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: because none of the threads talk to each other.
3586 2010-12-20 14:20:30 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I mean, I could use the concurrent dequeue, and have a thread dedicated to molesting little boys, but why bother?
3587 2010-12-20 14:20:41 <RichardG> MT`AwAy: because socks 5 with remote resolving is easy
3588 2010-12-20 14:20:51 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: because of performance? :)
3589 2010-12-20 14:21:17 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: hrrrrm.
3590 2010-12-20 14:21:39 <MT`AwAy> RichardG: problem is I have no socks5 client, I'll have to write one quickly, I think it shouldn't be too hard but I need to find doc first
3591 2010-12-20 14:21:50 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Depends on your latency or so, but there are people having >500ms to my service
3592 2010-12-20 14:21:59 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: hrrrrrrm. that could anal rape shit.
3593 2010-12-20 14:22:00 <slush_cz> autralia and so
3594 2010-12-20 14:22:06 <RichardG> MT`AwAy: you could do that with simple tcp
3595 2010-12-20 14:22:13 <RichardG> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOCKS
3596 2010-12-20 14:22:15 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: lemme think about this
3597 2010-12-20 14:22:19 <slush_cz> ok
3598 2010-12-20 14:22:28 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I _still_ have one thing though
3599 2010-12-20 14:22:41 maximi89 has joined
3600 2010-12-20 14:22:52 <Diablo-D3> it has to jettison the entire queue if it finds a block
3601 2010-12-20 14:22:58 <Diablo-D3> and all active work
3602 2010-12-20 14:23:30 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:11:09 AM] Block 185 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3603 2010-12-20 14:23:30 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:15:18 AM] Block 186 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3604 2010-12-20 14:23:30 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:15:40 AM] Block 187 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3605 2010-12-20 14:23:30 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:16:28 AM] Block 188 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3606 2010-12-20 14:23:30 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:16:44 AM] Block 189 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3607 2010-12-20 14:23:32 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:16:47 AM] Block 190 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3608 2010-12-20 14:23:34 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:17:25 AM] Block 191 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3609 2010-12-20 14:23:36 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:18:29 AM] Block 192 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3610 2010-12-20 14:23:38 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:18:46 AM] Block 193 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3611 2010-12-20 14:23:40 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:19:49 AM] Block 194 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3612 2010-12-20 14:23:42 <slush_cz> Only when found block was with higher difficulty
3613 2010-12-20 14:23:42 <Diablo-D3> [12/20/10 9:20:18 AM] Block 195 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
3614 2010-12-20 14:23:44 <Diablo-D3> see enclosed timestamps.
3615 2010-12-20 14:23:46 <Diablo-D3> your idea isn't really useful, is it.
3616 2010-12-20 14:23:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: but I dont know what the actual difficulty is
3617 2010-12-20 14:24:09 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, no output windows just says 'java has stoped working' : http://pastebin.com/VWPSZhqE
3618 2010-12-20 14:24:11 <RichardG> MT`AwAy: I think you can use polipo for .onion resolution
3619 2010-12-20 14:24:13 <RichardG> let me try
3620 2010-12-20 14:24:14 <slush_cz> Work is still valid when another thread find a solution to lowered target
3621 2010-12-20 14:24:30 <MT`AwAy> RichardG: polipo is for http
3622 2010-12-20 14:24:54 <slush_cz> So you don't care with job invalidation when another thread find a solutin
3623 2010-12-20 14:24:57 <MT`AwAy> RichardG: anyway just give me one day or two, it'll work
3624 2010-12-20 14:24:58 <slush_cz> solution
3625 2010-12-20 14:25:14 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: yes, but I dont know what the ACTUAL diff is
3626 2010-12-20 14:25:48 <slush_cz> ? Does not matter. In the worst case, you will calculate invalid pow time to time (once per few hours?)
3627 2010-12-20 14:25:56 <EvanR> boo only 4100 Mh/s ;)
3628 2010-12-20 14:26:48 hoxqot has joined
3629 2010-12-20 14:26:49 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: thats not what I mean
3630 2010-12-20 14:27:01 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: if I dont know what the actual difficutly is, how can I tell my client not to getwork?
3631 2010-12-20 14:27:21 TD_ has joined
3632 2010-12-20 14:27:29 <slush_cz> oh, sorry, totally dont understand
3633 2010-12-20 14:27:29 <RichardG> also, the Python and PHP examples have nowiki tags visible
3634 2010-12-20 14:28:06 hoxqot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3635 2010-12-20 14:28:40 <slush_cz> don't undestand why you care about target
3636 2010-12-20 14:28:45 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: okay, we have two difficulties here
3637 2010-12-20 14:29:19 <Diablo-D3> one is the real network diff
3638 2010-12-20 14:29:23 <Diablo-D3> the other is your fake share diff
3639 2010-12-20 14:29:30 <Diablo-D3> my client _doesnt know its on a pool_
3640 2010-12-20 14:29:33 <Diablo-D3> and it knows it just solved a block
3641 2010-12-20 14:29:35 <Diablo-D3> ergo
3642 2010-12-20 14:29:48 <Diablo-D3> it tells all the getwork instances to flush and grab new
3643 2010-12-20 14:29:56 hoxqot has quit (2!~kvirc@83.239.207.27|Client Quit)
3644 2010-12-20 14:30:02 <Diablo-D3> (instead of waiting for the 5 seconds to finish)
3645 2010-12-20 14:30:09 <Diablo-D3> (oh, and btw, getwork gets work every 5 seconds)
3646 2010-12-20 14:30:33 <ArtForz> pull based getwork = stupid
3647 2010-12-20 14:30:39 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: thus, not only do I not know the real difficulty to let the 5 seconds run out, IT RUNS OUT IN 5 SECONDS ANYHOW
3648 2010-12-20 14:31:27 sdfgsd has joined
3649 2010-12-20 14:31:51 Zarutian has joined
3650 2010-12-20 14:32:23 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: because there is no getworks() in official API, miner should know he is connecting to proprietary api somehow. I bet cmdline option is the right way. So first issue is solved by this
3651 2010-12-20 14:32:49 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Yes, it is asking every 5 second, but every thread does this. I see floods of requests from my one card
3652 2010-12-20 14:33:06 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: there are 60 clients connected and I have > 20 requests per second to server. This is an issue
3653 2010-12-20 14:33:09 satamusic has joined
3654 2010-12-20 14:33:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: yes, but sharing getwork between threads is not really worth it
3655 2010-12-20 14:33:39 <Diablo-D3> what you REALLY want
3656 2010-12-20 14:33:43 <Diablo-D3> is to fuck over the timeout
3657 2010-12-20 14:34:05 <slush_cz> why 'sharing'? Implementing 'getwork' thread which server work on demand is pretty easy
3658 2010-12-20 14:34:30 <slush_cz> but I accept that you don't implement that. It's ok :)
3659 2010-12-20 14:34:31 <Diablo-D3> 3 requests per 5 seconds -> 1 request per 5 seconds
3660 2010-12-20 14:34:37 <Diablo-D3> thats an improvement
3661 2010-12-20 14:34:47 <slush_cz> yes, 5x less roundtrips
3662 2010-12-20 14:34:53 <Diablo-D3> it just makes me have to fucking lock every goddamned fucking cocksucking thing
3663 2010-12-20 14:35:04 <slush_cz> 3 requests? Really six, on my single card
3664 2010-12-20 14:35:07 <slush_cz> sorry for bad math :)
3665 2010-12-20 14:35:12 <Diablo-D3> 3 per gpu
3666 2010-12-20 14:35:19 <Diablo-D3> == 1 per execution
3667 2010-12-20 14:35:35 anarchyx has quit (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
3668 2010-12-20 14:35:38 <Diablo-D3> so some fucker out there with 2 5970s? 12 getwork per 5 seconds.
3669 2010-12-20 14:36:00 sdfgsd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3670 2010-12-20 14:36:11 <slush_cz> well, somebody _must_ make so much requests to service, because they are there :))
3671 2010-12-20 14:36:19 <RichardG> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Bitcoin_Map
3672 2010-12-20 14:36:27 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: OK, let it be.
3673 2010-12-20 14:36:29 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: so, technically, if I reduce those 12 to 1...
3674 2010-12-20 14:36:35 <Diablo-D3> thats a lot less fucking traffic.
3675 2010-12-20 14:37:48 <slush_cz> I think so
3676 2010-12-20 14:37:54 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, your miner seems stable when I connect it to my local bitcoin... however I need to test it with the testnet... If I load up test net, dose it create a independant testnet wallet?
3677 2010-12-20 14:38:07 <da2ce7> or do I need to clear out the user folder?
3678 2010-12-20 14:38:07 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: yes, thats what bitcoin does.
3679 2010-12-20 14:39:02 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: if you have bad connection (as many ppl reported already), you can turn down roundtrips from 4.8 seconds!! to 400ms
3680 2010-12-20 14:39:15 <Diablo-D3> yeah so
3681 2010-12-20 14:39:17 <slush_cz> this is the reason
3682 2010-12-20 14:39:22 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: well, changing the timeout would work too
3683 2010-12-20 14:39:40 maximi89 is now known as maximi89-away
3684 2010-12-20 14:39:50 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: I have to go. Think about it :)
3685 2010-12-20 14:40:25 <da2ce7> slush_cz, you need to implment dynamic dificurty asap.
3686 2010-12-20 14:40:45 <da2ce7> diablo-D3, need only one request per 5 seconds.
3687 2010-12-20 14:40:54 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: I already said that, pay attention
3688 2010-12-20 14:41:01 <da2ce7> :P
3689 2010-12-20 14:41:02 <da2ce7> ok
3690 2010-12-20 14:41:19 <Diablo-D3> but ... fawk.
3691 2010-12-20 14:41:33 <Diablo-D3> I have not rewritten the same 600 lines of code this much... ever
3692 2010-12-20 14:42:05 mndrix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3693 2010-12-20 14:42:07 <slush_cz> yeah, I have to set my priority now. Those days I just patched what was wrong. Now it looks quite stable, so will be time to improvement
3694 2010-12-20 14:42:20 <slush_cz> UNfortunately I will be completely out on Christmas
3695 2010-12-20 14:42:22 <Diablo-D3> no, see
3696 2010-12-20 14:42:27 <Diablo-D3> I got my shit out right the first time
3697 2010-12-20 14:42:30 mndrix has joined
3698 2010-12-20 14:42:30 mndrix has quit (Changing host)
3699 2010-12-20 14:42:30 mndrix has joined
3700 2010-12-20 14:42:30 <RichardG> LOL
3701 2010-12-20 14:42:31 <RichardG> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2374.0
3702 2010-12-20 14:42:32 <Diablo-D3> you fuckers keep moving the target
3703 2010-12-20 14:43:03 <EvanR-work> teleporting goal posts
3704 2010-12-20 14:43:46 <slush_cz> RichardG: :)
3705 2010-12-20 14:44:05 <da2ce7> dam it is stupidly slow to download the blocks adter 10000
3706 2010-12-20 14:44:47 morphbot has joined
3707 2010-12-20 14:44:49 morphbot has left ()
3708 2010-12-20 14:44:49 <RichardG> creating a page on the old remoteminer
3709 2010-12-20 14:48:03 genjix has joined
3710 2010-12-20 14:48:16 <genjix> hey, im editing the wiki page
3711 2010-12-20 14:48:23 <genjix> when we do sendtoaddress
3712 2010-12-20 14:48:26 <Satmaster> Diablo-D3, higher difficulty means less blocks per month for everyone, which means that as long as long demand increases, the Bitcoin value will go up.
3713 2010-12-20 14:48:32 <genjix> does it send from all accounts or just one?
3714 2010-12-20 14:48:47 Satmaster is now known as Xun-meister
3715 2010-12-20 14:49:03 <Xun-meister> (I'm Xunie btw)
3716 2010-12-20 14:49:15 <genjix> bitcoind sendtoaddress fooo 10  <- does it send 8 from "" (if it only has 8) and 2 from the next account?
3717 2010-12-20 14:49:40 <UukGoblin> Xun-meister, it's enough to just say "as long as demand increases, the BTC value will go up"
3718 2010-12-20 14:50:04 <UukGoblin> difficulty increase might mean a decrease in supply...
3719 2010-12-20 14:50:34 <gavinandresen> genjix:  sendtoaddress always debits the '' account.  If that account goes negative... it goes negative.
3720 2010-12-20 14:50:42 <UukGoblin> (as some willing-to-sell miners might be forced to shut down their generators due to too low profitability)
3721 2010-12-20 14:50:46 <genjix> aha ok thanks gavinandresen
3722 2010-12-20 14:51:42 <EvanR-work> wait, negative bitcoins?
3723 2010-12-20 14:52:11 <Diablo-D3> [09:46:36] <Satmaster> Diablo-D3, higher difficulty means less blocks per month for everyone, which means that as long as long demand increases, the Bitcoin value will go up.
3724 2010-12-20 14:52:14 <Diablo-D3> but I didnt say anything
3725 2010-12-20 14:52:34 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, it crashes quickly when it generates lots of blocks, if it on the real network, it dosn't crash
3726 2010-12-20 14:52:43 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: not from what Ive seen.
3727 2010-12-20 14:52:48 <Diablo-D3> its probably raping your bitcoind
3728 2010-12-20 14:52:53 <genjix> someone explain this: if "" goes negative. what's to stop me spending money i don't have?
3729 2010-12-20 14:52:55 <Diablo-D3> and are you sure its actually crashing?
3730 2010-12-20 14:53:04 <Diablo-D3> genjix: because it cant.
3731 2010-12-20 14:53:07 <RichardG> on cpu-miner, looks like cryptopp_asm32 has better performance than c on an AthlonXP
3732 2010-12-20 14:53:11 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: pastebin the evidence
3733 2010-12-20 14:53:41 <genjix> Diablo-D3: it can. see above... if you sendtoaddress and "" doesn't have enough, then it goes negative.
3734 2010-12-20 14:53:44 <RichardG> !pool
3735 2010-12-20 14:53:49 RG has joined
3736 2010-12-20 14:53:49 <RG> gettinginfo!tingle@187.15.34.80|!pool
3737 2010-12-20 14:53:50 <RichardG> This command is deprecated, see !newpool
3738 2010-12-20 14:53:51 RG has quit (gettinginfo!tingle@187.15.34.80|Client Quit)
3739 2010-12-20 14:53:55 <RichardG> !newpool
3740 2010-12-20 14:53:55 <gavinandresen> genjix:  if sum(balance for all accounts) < 0 you can't send anything to anybody.
3741 2010-12-20 14:53:57 <Diablo-D3> genjix: thats a very bad bug.
3742 2010-12-20 14:53:59 RG has joined
3743 2010-12-20 14:53:59 <RG> gettinginfo!tingle@187.15.34.80|!newpool
3744 2010-12-20 14:54:01 <RichardG> New pooled miner (mining.bitcoin.cz:8332) status: Round started 20/Dec/2010 05:25:28 UTC, 73 active workers, 32623 shares contributed, 4120872 khash/s
3745 2010-12-20 14:54:01 RG has quit (gettinginfo!tingle@187.15.34.80|Client Quit)
3746 2010-12-20 14:54:34 <genjix> gavinandresen: so is it just a client problem, not a protocol thing (i want to write this so im making sure) ;)
3747 2010-12-20 14:54:39 <RichardG> 4120 mhashes hmm
3748 2010-12-20 14:54:45 <RichardG> ;;bc,calc 4120872
3749 2010-12-20 14:54:45 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, http://pastebin.com/KX4Z7Nty
3750 2010-12-20 14:54:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4120872 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 3 hours, 32 minutes, and 49 seconds
3751 2010-12-20 14:54:51 <gavinandresen> genjix:  all of the accounts stuff is purely a client thing.
3752 2010-12-20 14:54:58 <RichardG> !
3753 2010-12-20 14:54:58 <genjix> aha ok
3754 2010-12-20 14:55:00 <gavinandresen> (none of it touches the network)
3755 2010-12-20 14:55:07 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: thats not useful, what did the jvm output?
3756 2010-12-20 14:55:08 <RichardG> now I see why mining for the new pool is at least worth something
3757 2010-12-20 14:55:15 <genjix> i see
3758 2010-12-20 14:55:26 <genjix> would you want a patch to stop it going negative?
3759 2010-12-20 14:55:39 <genjix> i.e move to next available account and debit it.
3760 2010-12-20 14:56:11 <genjix> or some other scheme (we can propose on forums what people think is best)
3761 2010-12-20 14:56:31 <gavinandresen> genjix:  I've been tempted to disable sendtoaddress and sendfrom '' on my ClearCoin bitcoind, just to make sure the accounting never gets screwed up.
3762 2010-12-20 14:56:32 <da2ce7> I have the console, that has no output, how do I get the jvm output?
3763 2010-12-20 14:56:47 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: it should output it on the console.
3764 2010-12-20 14:56:57 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: it sounds like a driver bug due to where its crashing
3765 2010-12-20 14:57:07 <RichardG> slush_cz: I have some grammar fixes for the "what is pooled mining?" page
3766 2010-12-20 14:57:31 <RichardG> Shares are deleted after the block is found, so each miner is rewarded only for the blocks on which participated.
3767 2010-12-20 14:57:38 <da2ce7> there is none, from the application error you can see that atiocl.dll is faulting, not java.
3768 2010-12-20 14:57:54 <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: thats the driver.
3769 2010-12-20 14:57:55 <genjix> gavinandresen: isn't that just a hack? :p
3770 2010-12-20 14:57:57 <RichardG> Register your workers. !!!EVERY INSTANCE OF YOUR MINER NEED ITS OWN WORKER ACCOUNT!!!
3771 2010-12-20 14:58:00 <gavinandresen> genjix:  the "right" answer right now is Don't Do That-- if you're using accounts, you should think about your moves/sends, and always use move/sendfrom <valid account>
3772 2010-12-20 14:58:02 <Diablo-D3> [09:55:06] <Diablo-D3> da2ce7: it sounds like a driver bug due to where its crashing
3773 2010-12-20 14:58:11 <RichardG> *Register your workers. !!!EVERY INSTANCE OF YOUR MINER NEEDS ITS OWN WORKER ACCOUNT!!!
3774 2010-12-20 14:58:12 <gavinandresen> genjix:  isn't what a hack?
3775 2010-12-20 14:58:33 <genjix> can't we have a generic send command? i dont use the gui and it's very handy to quickly send amounts
3776 2010-12-20 14:58:57 <genjix> moving money to other accounts, remembering their names = very annoying
3777 2010-12-20 14:58:58 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, it is werid as m0's miner isn't crashing, after many more blocks.
3778 2010-12-20 14:59:06 <gavinandresen> genjix:  you either have strict accounting of sends, or you don't-- you can't have your cake and eat it too.
3779 2010-12-20 14:59:07 <slush_cz> RichardG: Thanks! They are welcome! Please send comments to info@bitcoin.cz, I will fix it
3780 2010-12-20 14:59:25 <slush_cz> RichardG: Oh, I see you post it here already
3781 2010-12-20 14:59:49 <gavinandresen> genjix:  Well, you CAN, but your '' account might end up with a negative balance.
3782 2010-12-20 14:59:53 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3783 2010-12-20 14:59:55 <da2ce7> slush_cz, thanks for the great work! :)
3784 2010-12-20 15:00:08 <slush_cz> Well, I'll copy&paste it and update later
3785 2010-12-20 15:00:16 <genjix> what if i wrote a patch though that debits each account for what it does own?
3786 2010-12-20 15:00:26 <slush_cz> da2ce7: :)
3787 2010-12-20 15:00:37 <RichardG> now I know that it's really worth mining for the new pool
3788 2010-12-20 15:00:39 <genjix> i.e 8 from "", 3 from "Your Address", 4 from "xyz" = 15 btc sent
3789 2010-12-20 15:00:44 <genjix> gavinandresen: ^
3790 2010-12-20 15:01:05 <gavinandresen> genjix:  ... and to which account do you assign the change?
3791 2010-12-20 15:01:46 <slush_cz> Unfortunately there is no block for few hours ago :(
3792 2010-12-20 15:01:50 <genjix> well it can either be the account with the biggest debit, or 3 separate send commands
3793 2010-12-20 15:02:02 <genjix> doesn't matter too much.
3794 2010-12-20 15:02:22 <ArtForz> imo that sounds like a even uglier hack
3795 2010-12-20 15:02:29 <genjix> or maybe the funds are moved into ""
3796 2010-12-20 15:02:36 <genjix> and then debited from ""
3797 2010-12-20 15:02:45 <da2ce7> Diablo-D3, I'll leave your miner on the hard network overnight to see if it is a running bug, or only when you setup atiocl.dll
3798 2010-12-20 15:02:59 <da2ce7> goodnight people.
3799 2010-12-20 15:03:00 <RichardG> !newpool
3800 2010-12-20 15:03:00 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3801 2010-12-20 15:03:01 <genjix> so you'll see a bunch of move commands pooling the funds, and then a debit
3802 2010-12-20 15:03:02 satamusic has joined
3803 2010-12-20 15:03:05 RG has joined
3804 2010-12-20 15:03:05 <RG> gettinginfo!tingle@187.15.34.80|!newpool
3805 2010-12-20 15:03:07 <RichardG> New pooled miner (mining.bitcoin.cz:8332) status: Round started 20/Dec/2010 05:25:28 UTC, 76 active workers, 33042 shares contributed, 4107847 khash/s, next block est. 3hrs 33mins 30secs
3806 2010-12-20 15:03:07 RG has quit (gettinginfo!tingle@187.15.34.80|Client Quit)
3807 2010-12-20 15:03:19 <RichardG> added "next block est." from the old miner's command
3808 2010-12-20 15:03:25 <nanotube> RichardG: see also ,,bc,poolstats
3809 2010-12-20 15:03:26 <gribble> {"active_workers": 76, "hashes_ps": 4107953500, "shares": 33062, "round_started": "2010-12-20 05:25:28"}
3810 2010-12-20 15:03:38 <gavinandresen> genjix:  yeah.....  trying to keep coins separate in the wallet just ain't worth it, in my humble opinion.
3811 2010-12-20 15:03:50 <RichardG> nanotube: let me rephrase what I said yesterday about my server's stability
3812 2010-12-20 15:04:04 <RichardG> let's say it's having a hardware issue with one of the fans
3813 2010-12-20 15:04:12 <RichardG> and I need to shut it down while sleeping
3814 2010-12-20 15:04:18 <RichardG> due to this issue
3815 2010-12-20 15:04:21 <RichardG> fix'd.
3816 2010-12-20 15:04:27 satamusic_ has joined
3817 2010-12-20 15:04:30 <genjix> yep :p well bitcoin has accounts holding addresses... how long before there's account categories?
3818 2010-12-20 15:04:39 <genjix> and then meta-categories
3819 2010-12-20 15:05:03 <nanotube> RichardG: so you're saying you fixed the fan, or ... ?
3820 2010-12-20 15:05:26 <RichardG> no, but I think I have a spare
3821 2010-12-20 15:05:28 <RichardG> I'll find it
3822 2010-12-20 15:05:39 <RichardG> also, does jgarzik's miner have any additional dependencies?
3823 2010-12-20 15:05:42 <gavinandresen> genjix:  I'm a fan of Google's approach to organizing shit-- throw it all in a great big pile, index the crap out of it, and have really good search.
3824 2010-12-20 15:06:34 <nanotube> RichardG: ah well, have fun swapping them, then... heh. jgarzik's miner only has a libcurl dep
3825 2010-12-20 15:07:02 <RichardG> so I'll mine with my server
3826 2010-12-20 15:07:50 <RichardG> I tried to compile classic Bitcoin on my VPS, but the last command for compiling boost segfaulted, but let's disregard that
3827 2010-12-20 15:07:53 <nanotube> as long as you're not paying for power. :)
3828 2010-12-20 15:08:09 <nanotube> yea, cpuminer is pretty light.
3829 2010-12-20 15:08:22 <nanotube> no boost or anynthing
3830 2010-12-20 15:08:31 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3831 2010-12-20 15:09:02 xelister has joined
3832 2010-12-20 15:09:21 <genjix> MT`AwAy: where can we write suggestions for your client? On the QBitCoin talk page?
3833 2010-12-20 15:10:25 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3834 2010-12-20 15:11:15 <RichardG> forum topics render quite well with elinks
3835 2010-12-20 15:11:32 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/ Now with a new default skin :)
3836 2010-12-20 15:13:34 <RichardG> http://goput.it/43e.png
3837 2010-12-20 15:14:35 <RichardG> now compiling it
3838 2010-12-20 15:15:23 <genjix> what os is that?
3839 2010-12-20 15:15:27 <genjix> windows 98?
3840 2010-12-20 15:16:12 <jb55> its a cli program running in an ssh session through putty
3841 2010-12-20 15:16:18 <jb55> but yeah
3842 2010-12-20 15:16:20 <ArtForz> 2k/xp classic
3843 2010-12-20 15:16:35 <Myckel> yeah, NT based
3844 2010-12-20 15:16:46 <jb55> never heard of elinks
3845 2010-12-20 15:16:52 <jb55> is it like lynx?
3846 2010-12-20 15:17:00 <Diablo-D3> its a fork of links
3847 2010-12-20 15:17:05 <RichardG> genjix: XP classic.
3848 2010-12-20 15:17:06 <Diablo-D3> which is much better than lynx
3849 2010-12-20 15:17:08 <RichardG> jb55: yes
3850 2010-12-20 15:17:10 <genjix> :o
3851 2010-12-20 15:17:12 <RichardG> Diablo-D3: agreed
3852 2010-12-20 15:17:24 <Diablo-D3> links has been around for EONS
3853 2010-12-20 15:17:32 <genjix> links2
3854 2010-12-20 15:17:45 <genjix> links 1 = lynx
3855 2010-12-20 15:17:56 <Diablo-D3> no, links2 is something else
3856 2010-12-20 15:18:08 <Diablo-D3> elinks and links2 are divergent forks of links
3857 2010-12-20 15:18:32 <genjix> ok but still the first links is called lynx
3858 2010-12-20 15:19:10 <Diablo-D3> except links is not related to lynx
3859 2010-12-20 15:19:18 * jb55 is confused
3860 2010-12-20 15:19:25 <genjix> i saw on the web a screenshot with a guy reading a webpage in terminal
3861 2010-12-20 15:19:30 <genjix> and it had pictures
3862 2010-12-20 15:19:34 mndrix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3863 2010-12-20 15:19:39 <ArtForz> still missing a wooden table
3864 2010-12-20 15:19:42 <genjix> anyone know how to get anything lik that working?
3865 2010-12-20 15:19:55 <Diablo-D3> genjix: lynx and links are both text console browsers
3866 2010-12-20 15:19:58 <Diablo-D3> but they're not related
3867 2010-12-20 15:20:14 <RichardG> 851 khashes on the VPS with cryptopp_asm32 vs. 700 on the classic client, nice
3868 2010-12-20 15:20:23 <genjix> i tried using uzbl but it sucks imo (still to early)
3869 2010-12-20 15:20:39 <jb55> cryptopp_asm32 doesn't produce any valid work I found, had to use the other one
3870 2010-12-20 15:21:47 <dsg> genjix: I tried it two years ago, then they had a security bug where any site could run arbitrary system commands through JavaScript, and decided they probably didn't "get it". :)
3871 2010-12-20 15:21:55 <RichardG> jb55: cryptopp?
3872 2010-12-20 15:22:06 <jb55> RichardG: yeah
3873 2010-12-20 15:22:10 <RichardG> I mean
3874 2010-12-20 15:22:11 <jb55> well actually
3875 2010-12-20 15:22:14 <RichardG> does cryptopp generate valid work
3876 2010-12-20 15:22:26 <jb55> well actually I'm using the c one right now
3877 2010-12-20 15:22:32 <genjix> ic
3878 2010-12-20 15:22:41 <jb55> So I'm not sure
3879 2010-12-20 15:22:58 <jb55> I just know that the asm32 didn't get me any shares
3880 2010-12-20 15:23:58 <RichardG> trying c now
3881 2010-12-20 15:24:04 Amiga4000 is now known as amiga4000
3882 2010-12-20 15:24:05 <RichardG> cryptopp has like ~200kh
3883 2010-12-20 15:24:40 Kiba has joined
3884 2010-12-20 15:25:48 <RichardG> jb55: the UI is also showing 0 on the Current shares column with algo c also...
3885 2010-12-20 15:27:36 <jb55> RichardG: if you look at the miner output it should say when you have produced work (valid or not)
3886 2010-12-20 15:27:58 <RichardG> oh, I know
3887 2010-12-20 15:28:01 <RichardG> the proof of work things
3888 2010-12-20 15:28:26 <jb55> so if it's still showing 0 then I dunno
3889 2010-12-20 15:28:34 Toadyonps3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3890 2010-12-20 15:28:50 <RichardG> the proof of work things?
3891 2010-12-20 15:29:00 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3892 2010-12-20 15:29:07 <RichardG> I got a PoW with algo c on my main computer once
3893 2010-12-20 15:30:06 <MT`AwAy> [00:07:33] <genjix> MT`AwAy: where can we write suggestions for your client? On the QBitCoin talk page? <- yes
3894 2010-12-20 15:33:00 satamusic has joined
3895 2010-12-20 15:36:44 <Myckel> hehe.. someone found a safe with 300 000 euros in an old bank building (they were renovating it when they discovered the safe).
3896 2010-12-20 15:37:49 <Kiba> Myckel: is it still spendable
3897 2010-12-20 15:37:55 <Kiba> ?
3898 2010-12-20 15:40:21 <Myckel> They brought it to the police, they didn't wanted to be charged with theft. The bank that was the previous owner started an investigation.
3899 2010-12-20 15:40:33 <Myckel> Was just on the news.
3900 2010-12-20 15:41:06 <Kiba> how's your advertising platform?
3901 2010-12-20 15:42:42 albatross has joined
3902 2010-12-20 15:44:09 <Myckel> Kiba, busy with it. Todo list is getting shorter and shorter. Now busy with letting advertisers to change their bid.
3903 2010-12-20 15:44:42 <Kiba> soon
3904 2010-12-20 15:44:47 <Kiba> you will have lot of bitcoins
3905 2010-12-20 15:44:49 <Kiba> and...
3906 2010-12-20 15:44:51 <Kiba> a  business
3907 2010-12-20 15:44:53 <Kiba> lol
3908 2010-12-20 15:44:58 <Myckel> :-D
3909 2010-12-20 15:45:11 <Myckel> Well, I invested quite some time in it.
3910 2010-12-20 15:45:12 <MT`AwAy> oh shit
3911 2010-12-20 15:45:15 <MT`AwAy> already dec 21st
3912 2010-12-20 15:45:43 <Myckel> Kiba, if I can run it break even. I would already be happy.
3913 2010-12-20 15:46:26 <Myckel> MT`AwAy, still 20th here
3914 2010-12-20 15:46:39 <genjix> http://twitter.com/#!/BitcoinPoker http://twitter.com/#!/BitcoinVegas  http://twitter.com/#!/genjix
3915 2010-12-20 15:47:05 <genjix> add us if you use twatter :P
3916 2010-12-20 15:47:30 * Myckel does not use twatter
3917 2010-12-20 15:47:30 <MT`AwAy> genjix: you're a freaking egg
3918 2010-12-20 15:47:52 <genjix> MT`AwAy: default icon
3919 2010-12-20 15:48:02 <MT`AwAy> genjix: yes I know
3920 2010-12-20 15:48:04 <Kiba> I don't gamble
3921 2010-12-20 15:48:19 <genjix> Kiba: poker isnt gambling.
3922 2010-12-20 15:48:37 <pankkake> it is
3923 2010-12-20 15:48:42 <genjix> gambling is a betting game where you cannot affect the odds.
3924 2010-12-20 15:48:46 <genjix> poker is a game of skill.
3925 2010-12-20 15:48:50 <pankkake> hahaha
3926 2010-12-20 15:48:55 <pankkake> ridiculous
3927 2010-12-20 15:49:14 <genjix> what is?
3928 2010-12-20 15:49:20 <albatross> pankkake: look at world series of poker. top 20 are usually the same cast of characters
3929 2010-12-20 15:49:54 <pankkake> typical response
3930 2010-12-20 15:50:03 <pankkake> it's still a game of estimating odds
3931 2010-12-20 15:50:54 <xelister> anyone good in scripting/bash/programming etc want 5 BTC?
3932 2010-12-20 15:50:54 <genjix> buying stock, currency speculating, opening a business =/= gambling, but poker does? twisted logic.
3933 2010-12-20 15:50:59 <MT`AwAy> genjix: btw what's your suggestion for qbitcoin ?
3934 2010-12-20 15:51:34 <xelister> in linux, write any script/program/whatever, which takes input text and then:    Count all lines, that contain at least one word that: (is not "$html" nor "$form"  and  that is starting with literal dolar character).
3935 2010-12-20 15:51:41 <genjix> MT`AwAy: i sometimes get ideas and lose them cos i dont write them down... right now my current idea is an improve accounts system. might be better if i write it in full.
3936 2010-12-20 15:51:53 <MT`AwAy> genjix: ok
3937 2010-12-20 15:51:55 <pankkake> in poker, there is randomness, and only randomness
3938 2010-12-20 15:52:04 <genjix> xelister: make it worth my time- 10 btc :p
3939 2010-12-20 15:52:12 <pankkake> stock, currencies, businesses are based on human activities you can study
3940 2010-12-20 15:52:30 <MT`AwAy> xelister: too easy,
3941 2010-12-20 15:52:44 <xelister> yeah I could code it in 15-30 min in c++ but Im bussy
3942 2010-12-20 15:52:51 <genjix> pankkake: you do not know what you're talking about. read wikipedia or something.
3943 2010-12-20 15:52:54 <xelister> btw this is not trivial question, read carefully
3944 2010-12-20 15:52:58 <MT`AwAy> xelister: something like ? cat file | grep '^$' | grep -c -v '$html|$form'
3945 2010-12-20 15:53:16 <albatross> pankkake: uhh...human activities affect poker too, no? i've seen guys lay down the best hand on the table because they were not sure it was the best.
3946 2010-12-20 15:53:20 <MT`AwAy> xelister: the word or the line starts with $ ? :p
3947 2010-12-20 15:53:21 <genjix> pankkake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_strategy
3948 2010-12-20 15:53:33 <MT`AwAy> (right now I wrote with line)
3949 2010-12-20 15:53:34 <genjix> pankkake: just cos you lose, doesnt mean others cant consistently win.
3950 2010-12-20 15:53:45 <pankkake> « just cos you lose »
3951 2010-12-20 15:53:54 <pankkake> typical butthurt response
3952 2010-12-20 15:54:03 <pankkake> a BOT will win consistenly
3953 2010-12-20 15:54:12 <genjix> wtf are you on about
3954 2010-12-20 15:54:14 <genjix> no it won't.
3955 2010-12-20 15:54:18 <pankkake> it's a ridiculous game for ridiculous people
3956 2010-12-20 15:54:26 <genjix> you're a ridiculous person
3957 2010-12-20 15:54:55 <pankkake> stupid enough to not understand what odds and statistics are (except the top players who live with your money)
3958 2010-12-20 15:55:07 <genjix> wtf i used to grind poker for a living.
3959 2010-12-20 15:55:11 <pankkake> it's a game for kids who want to feel like grown men
3960 2010-12-20 15:55:27 <genjix> i'm a 0.5 ptbb winner on nl50
3961 2010-12-20 15:55:32 <pankkake> albatross: then it means they are emotional faggots
3962 2010-12-20 15:55:35 <genjix> over 200k hands
3963 2010-12-20 15:55:40 <pankkake> (like most poker players)
3964 2010-12-20 15:55:42 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3965 2010-12-20 15:55:51 <pankkake> genjix: now it's a pissing contest
3966 2010-12-20 15:55:58 <pankkake> you are fucking ridiculous
3967 2010-12-20 15:56:00 <albatross> so, you're saying emotions affect the outcome more than the statistics?
3968 2010-12-20 15:56:02 <genjix> you sound like a bitter person who has lost money and now is slagging off the game.
3969 2010-12-20 15:56:03 <albatross> hmmm
3970 2010-12-20 15:56:08 <xelister> MT`AwAy: your questions is already solved, read carefully :) The word, not the line
3971 2010-12-20 15:56:13 <pankkake> albatross: no, they don't, unless you're a pussy
3972 2010-12-20 15:56:42 <albatross> 'unless you're a pussy'....so, you're saying that 'sometimes' emotions affect the game
3973 2010-12-20 15:56:42 <genjix> that's retarded.
3974 2010-12-20 15:56:58 <genjix> metagame is a big part of playing poker.
3975 2010-12-20 15:57:03 <genjix> and past history too.
3976 2010-12-20 15:57:11 <pankkake> yes, if players are stupid enough, their emotions will have an influence
3977 2010-12-20 15:57:11 <xelister> 10 BTC:   In linux, write any script/program/whatever, which takes input text and then:    Count all lines, that contain at least one word that: (is not "$html" nor "$form"  and  that word is starting with literal dolar character). Give code (copyrights to me). Needed in next 2 hours. PM before start. Readable code etc.
3978 2010-12-20 15:57:22 <pankkake> are you saying poker players are stupid?
3979 2010-12-20 15:57:35 <albatross> pankakke: you just disproved your own 'there is randomness, and only randomness' point
3980 2010-12-20 15:57:39 <genjix> pankkake: ok if its statistics then ill play you for whatever amount of $ you want.
3981 2010-12-20 15:57:42 Toadyonps3 has joined
3982 2010-12-20 15:57:47 <genjix> * statistically even
3983 2010-12-20 15:57:53 <albatross> genjix: i want in on this game :)
3984 2010-12-20 15:58:17 <pankkake> albatross: no. not at all. the cards are selected from pure randomness. the players should know that and act accordingly (that's what bots do)
3985 2010-12-20 15:58:27 <genjix> albatross: well if we're playing any buyin then i want your stars nickname first :p
3986 2010-12-20 15:58:34 <genjix> dont want to play some HU reg
3987 2010-12-20 15:58:44 <pankkake> but no, poker players are pussies and get affected by their emotions, somehow they think they are grown men because they are betting money
3988 2010-12-20 15:58:53 Toadyonps3 has quit (Client Quit)
3989 2010-12-20 15:58:56 <genjix> lolwut
3990 2010-12-20 15:59:02 <genjix> haha
3991 2010-12-20 15:59:18 <ArtForz> wtf?
3992 2010-12-20 15:59:18 <EvanR-work> pankkake: interesting
3993 2010-12-20 15:59:24 <genjix> no poker bot wins high stakes games
3994 2010-12-20 15:59:28 <EvanR-work> if you werent trolling you might be on to something
3995 2010-12-20 15:59:41 <pankkake> because poker bots are not allowed
3996 2010-12-20 15:59:45 <genjix> the only sucessful poker bot is HU limit poker
3997 2010-12-20 15:59:59 <pankkake> EvanR-work: I'm not trolling. Poker player are immature pussies.
3998 2010-12-20 16:00:11 <pankkake> and they get butthurt really, really fast
3999 2010-12-20 16:00:14 <MT`AwAy> xelister: cat file | sed -e 's/\$html//;s/\$form//'|grep -c -E '\$\w+'
4000 2010-12-20 16:00:21 <ArtForz> ad hominem != argument, PLONK
4001 2010-12-20 16:00:23 <genjix> other than that, there hasn't ever been winning poker bots (except maybe low microstakes where drunk people gamble $2 by going allin every hand)
4002 2010-12-20 16:01:23 <pankkake> of course they are winning, they just play it safe and go unnoticed, since online poker sites try to ban them
4003 2010-12-20 16:01:31 <genjix> http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-player-search/nanonoko
4004 2010-12-20 16:01:37 <pankkake> why try to ban them if they are so bad?
4005 2010-12-20 16:01:40 <genjix> this is all the proof needed that poker is a skill game
4006 2010-12-20 16:01:52 <pankkake> anyway, what is that skill you're talking about?
4007 2010-12-20 16:01:52 <genjix> pankkake: because players dont like them.
4008 2010-12-20 16:02:09 <genjix> well if it was a game of luck, then that graph would be swinging around everywhere
4009 2010-12-20 16:02:19 <genjix> in fact it's not. it's a consistently straight line.
4010 2010-12-20 16:02:20 <pankkake> genjix: yes, because they don't want to see the truth: they are playing a stupid luck game
4011 2010-12-20 16:02:23 <ArtForz> duh, of course it's a skill game
4012 2010-12-20 16:02:39 <pankkake> then what is the skill?
4013 2010-12-20 16:03:01 satamusic has joined
4014 2010-12-20 16:03:38 <genjix> evualuating your opponents playing style. adding in past history like hands they've recently lost or times where you got in squabbles. thinking about how they percieve your hand range.
4015 2010-12-20 16:04:01 <genjix> adjusting yourself accordingly to maximise your Expected Value vs all this info you know
4016 2010-12-20 16:04:15 <albatross> pankkake: a bot can beat the best chess players. Does it mean that chess is a stupid luck game?
4017 2010-12-20 16:04:16 <genjix> that's the high level overview, but it goes much more in depth
4018 2010-12-20 16:04:38 <pankkake> albatross: there is no randomness in the distribution of the pieces
4019 2010-12-20 16:04:57 <genjix> sometimes you get in situations whre you think: ok, he thinks that i think that he has X, and you can trick him into making a bad move.
4020 2010-12-20 16:05:01 <pankkake> genjix: please. it's just inefficient ways to estimate odds.
4021 2010-12-20 16:05:08 jyaworski has joined
4022 2010-12-20 16:05:18 <pankkake> no, you think that because you like to think you are playing a real game
4023 2010-12-20 16:05:45 <genjix> whatever. its pointless explaining something to somebody who's alreayd made up their mind.
4024 2010-12-20 16:05:50 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_strategy
4025 2010-12-20 16:05:58 <genjix> there's the link. do some learning ffs.
4026 2010-12-20 16:06:13 <genjix> poker strategy forum: http://www.liquidpoker.net/
4027 2010-12-20 16:06:22 <genjix> how about you make a post there and get laughed at.
4028 2010-12-20 16:06:26 <pankkake> I've read it already, I've seen butthurt pussies like you before
4029 2010-12-20 16:06:47 <pankkake> of course they will laugh, what would they do? accept the fact that they are living a lie?
4030 2010-12-20 16:07:03 <pankkake> I'll get laughed at in a scientology forum too, what would that prove?
4031 2010-12-20 16:07:21 <pankkake> your butthurtedness is really funny to watch
4032 2010-12-20 16:07:40 kljmpd has joined
4033 2010-12-20 16:08:27 <genjix> do you still want to play me for $1000?
4034 2010-12-20 16:08:39 <Kiba> oh.
4035 2010-12-20 16:08:40 <genjix> at $100 tables
4036 2010-12-20 16:08:42 <Kiba> genjix have balls
4037 2010-12-20 16:08:43 <genjix> im game.
4038 2010-12-20 16:08:48 <albatross> anyway, tcatm: order book is showing to the bottom again. i refreshed a bunch of times
4039 2010-12-20 16:08:49 <pankkake> you just don't get it
4040 2010-12-20 16:09:06 <genjix> ill take your money :)
4041 2010-12-20 16:09:18 <pankkake> the only way I would play you is on 1000 games of $1
4042 2010-12-20 16:09:40 <pankkake> the fact that you want to play ONE game shows that you understand nothing
4043 2010-12-20 16:10:07 <genjix> just maximising my equity
4044 2010-12-20 16:10:18 <pankkake> and I would play with cold, hard, statistics
4045 2010-12-20 16:10:29 <pankkake> what the fuck does that mean?
4046 2010-12-20 16:10:50 <genjix> how about 10000 hands at 4 $50 tables?
4047 2010-12-20 16:10:51 <xelister> indeed MT`AwAy's works
4048 2010-12-20 16:11:24 <genjix> it means if i think i win then i'll rather play for $100 than $1
4049 2010-12-20 16:12:09 <MT`AwAy> xelister: then you can give the promised bitcoins to 1AFTHqc2kqfH7JqYWRecHyE5f9SyXn2aGk (the address for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin:Contributors_Award )
4050 2010-12-20 16:12:30 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4051 2010-12-20 16:13:30 darrob has joined
4052 2010-12-20 16:13:49 <xelister> MT`AwAy: sent, congrats
4053 2010-12-20 16:14:03 <MT`AwAy> :)
4054 2010-12-20 16:14:13 <xelister> this is brilantly simple solution, someone dudes over at #bash #awk didnt come up with it, instead we all looked for better regexp
4055 2010-12-20 16:14:19 <MT`AwAy> xelister: bash+sed+grep = the world in your hands :)
4056 2010-12-20 16:14:24 <xelister> MT`AwAy: rate my trust at #bitcoin-otc
4057 2010-12-20 16:14:33 <MT`AwAy> xelister: I can't, I have no ratings yet
4058 2010-12-20 16:14:43 <xelister> hm? you need rating to rate others?
4059 2010-12-20 16:14:53 <MT`AwAy> I saw it written somewhere
4060 2010-12-20 16:14:59 <MT`AwAy> ie, you can't rate if you're not rated
4061 2010-12-20 16:15:08 <MT`AwAy> I had a nice transaction with [Noodles] but I think he didn't rate me :p
4062 2010-12-20 16:15:09 <RichardG> MT`AwAy: I'll send you a centie out of my 0.08 (all obtained with faucet) once you implement tor nodes on wikibot ;)
4063 2010-12-20 16:15:13 <xelister> it seems a bit stupid
4064 2010-12-20 16:15:24 <xelister> such system is destinated to fail ;)
4065 2010-12-20 16:15:29 <xelister> or a chicken-egg
4066 2010-12-20 16:15:32 <MT`AwAy> xelister: guess it's to avoid people popping up and rating each other
4067 2010-12-20 16:15:42 <MT`AwAy> well, I'll try anyway
4068 2010-12-20 16:15:48 MT`AwAy is now known as MagicalTux
4069 2010-12-20 16:16:37 kljmpd has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4070 2010-12-20 16:19:04 <RichardG> slush_cz: I have 0.00130917 as reward on my account, but didn't get them yet
4071 2010-12-20 16:22:58 MagicalTux is now known as MT`AwAy
4072 2010-12-20 16:23:45 mndrix has joined
4073 2010-12-20 16:23:45 mndrix has quit (Changing host)
4074 2010-12-20 16:23:45 mndrix has joined
4075 2010-12-20 16:25:25 <RichardG> oh, the threshold
4076 2010-12-20 16:26:03 <xelister> RichardG: send me picture of your damn hand with "Xelister rocks" to get 0.01 BTC immediatelly (1mpix)
4077 2010-12-20 16:26:05 <RichardG> lowered it to 0.02
4078 2010-12-20 16:26:16 <RichardG> xelister: I am not feeding trolls
4079 2010-12-20 16:27:02 <MT`AwAy> 2717501c2e9201ca0feb53b1cbebbc8262dac3bbb24cfb71a92c76340e635d9a
4080 2010-12-20 16:30:16 <helmut> I had an idea about replacing https://clearcoin.appspot.com/ inside the bitcoin client. how about a new transaction mechanism? the out part would hash a secret in addition to check the signature. the in part would contain a simple signature and the secret.
4081 2010-12-20 16:30:53 <helmut> this way I can create a transaction to someone and have no longer access to the money. the recipient cannot use it either until I reveal the secret.
4082 2010-12-20 16:31:29 <helmut> basically it's already there. it just needs a fancy gui :-)
4083 2010-12-20 16:31:56 <MT`AwAy> helmut: and how do you get your money back if the other guy is just a thief?
4084 2010-12-20 16:32:12 <MT`AwAy> and how do he makes sure you don't take your money back if you are the thief?
4085 2010-12-20 16:32:13 <MT`AwAy> XD
4086 2010-12-20 16:32:33 <helmut> the first part is not that solvable, but the second is solved.
4087 2010-12-20 16:33:01 satamusic_ has joined
4088 2010-12-20 16:33:02 <MT`AwAy> maybe by introducting time constraint
4089 2010-12-20 16:33:24 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4090 2010-12-20 16:33:27 <xelister> RichardG: it is actuall offer, you could benefit as MT`AwAy did got his 10 btc ;)
4091 2010-12-20 16:34:20 <helmut> well it doesn't solve the underlying problem (verify that the seller delivered the goods), but is an approximation.
4092 2010-12-20 16:34:30 <helmut> selling the underlying problem seems impossible to me.
4093 2010-12-20 16:34:38 <helmut> s/selling/solving/
4094 2010-12-20 16:34:39 altamic has joined
4095 2010-12-20 16:35:04 <MT`AwAy> helmut: you need a third party to conclude which one is the bad guy
4096 2010-12-20 16:35:14 <RichardG> * Added *!*@ip-1-157.gemini.net.pl to ignore list
4097 2010-12-20 16:35:16 <RichardG> fix'd
4098 2010-12-20 16:35:25 <xelister> 1 BTC to tell RichardG he sucks :P
4099 2010-12-20 16:35:36 <MT`AwAy> xD
4100 2010-12-20 16:35:48 <RichardG> <- :xelister!~xe@ip-1-157.gemini.net.pl PRIVMSG #bitcoin-dev :1 BTC to tell RichardG he sucks :P
4101 2010-12-20 16:35:49 <RichardG> LOL
4102 2010-12-20 16:36:07 <xelister> RichardG: you fail at using ignore ;)
4103 2010-12-20 16:36:08 <MT`AwAy> xelister: he told it to himself, you need to give him 1 BTC now
4104 2010-12-20 16:36:15 <MT`AwAy> :D
4105 2010-12-20 16:36:19 <xelister> RichardG: you suck
4106 2010-12-20 16:36:39 <xelister> MT`AwAy: no he just quoted something. I did. Sending self now the 1 btc between my other wallet =)
4107 2010-12-20 16:36:41 <MT`AwAy> anyway RichardG already got 1 btc
4108 2010-12-20 16:37:24 genjix has left ()
4109 2010-12-20 16:37:38 asdf58 has joined
4110 2010-12-20 16:37:50 <helmut> MT`AwAy: well the idea behind this new transaction mechanism was that neither parties would have a benefit in not cooperating besides damaging the other.
4111 2010-12-20 16:37:54 <xelister> btw, how is the send btc in wallet in email idea nowdays?
4112 2010-12-20 16:38:22 <helmut> MT`AwAy: since damaging the other is not a profitable thing to do I would hope that it doesn't happen that frequently.
4113 2010-12-20 16:38:36 <RichardG> LAWL
4114 2010-12-20 16:38:41 <RichardG> <MT`AwAy> anyway RichardG already got 1 btc
4115 2010-12-20 16:39:01 <ArtForz> errr... can't you already do that with a 2-signature tx?
4116 2010-12-20 16:39:04 asdf30 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4117 2010-12-20 16:39:05 <RichardG> I say... thanks
4118 2010-12-20 16:39:53 <helmut> ArtForz: please explain
4119 2010-12-20 16:40:06 <lfm> xelister: will this do?  http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/Snapshot_20101220.JPG
4120 2010-12-20 16:40:32 <xelister> 0.001 is less then 10-th of a cent right? How people can wrap their minds on such things O_o
4121 2010-12-20 16:40:49 <xelister> lfm: this is not a hand
4122 2010-12-20 16:40:57 <xelister> or you have a rare genetic disorder
4123 2010-12-20 16:41:15 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4124 2010-12-20 16:41:16 <ArtForz> OP_CHECKMULTISIGVERIFY
4125 2010-12-20 16:41:31 <helmut> ArtForz: 17:29 < helmut> basically it's already there. it just needs a fancy gui :-)
4126 2010-12-20 16:41:50 <ArtForz> yep
4127 2010-12-20 16:42:35 <xelister> ;;bc,stat
4128 2010-12-20 16:42:35 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
4129 2010-12-20 16:42:37 <xelister> ;;bc,stats
4130 2010-12-20 16:42:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98578 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 205 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 5 hours, 12 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14330.23953234
4131 2010-12-20 16:44:14 <xelister> where is up to date graph of diff in time?
4132 2010-12-20 16:44:25 <ArtForz> basically a txout only valid if txin has 2 sigs and sig1.addr == payee and sig2.pubkey = X where X is the pubkey of a new random pub/priv keypair payer creates
4133 2010-12-20 16:44:40 satamusic has joined
4134 2010-12-20 16:45:16 <ArtForz> = funds are stuck forever until payer gives payee the secret key of keypair X
4135 2010-12-20 16:45:34 <xelister> so RichardG 0.001 btc.  You know what, I will give you 0.01 BTC if you just say please ;) People mining with cpu just make me fell sorry
4136 2010-12-20 16:45:54 <ArtForz> and payer can do that openly as payee still has to sign the txin with the private key belonging to his addr
4137 2010-12-20 16:46:00 <RichardG> ok then, give me 0.01 btc please
4138 2010-12-20 16:46:00 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
4139 2010-12-20 16:46:50 <xelister> your ignore really is useless ;)
4140 2010-12-20 16:46:52 <xelister> whats your address
4141 2010-12-20 16:47:14 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4142 2010-12-20 16:47:16 <RichardG> 1FVXB2yaLo47SMWYpYW92KoySQB2T37chB
4143 2010-12-20 16:47:35 <RichardG> but whoever sent me 1 btc dropped it on my contributors' award account
4144 2010-12-20 16:48:03 sgornick has joined
4145 2010-12-20 16:48:20 <xelister> RichardG: sent
4146 2010-12-20 16:48:21 <MT`AwAy> [01:45:47] <RichardG> but whoever sent me 1 btc dropped it on my contributors' award account <- I took the address from your User: page
4147 2010-12-20 16:48:39 <RichardG> what the ----
4148 2010-12-20 16:48:44 <RichardG> i got sent 5c, then 1c, then 2c
4149 2010-12-20 16:48:48 <MT`AwAy> RichardG: look at what I said just after you said "[01:24:28] <RichardG> xelister: I am not feeding trolls"
4150 2010-12-20 16:48:55 <xelister> perhaps we should start a charity fund for CPU miners on the xmass
4151 2010-12-20 16:48:56 <RichardG> I saw.
4152 2010-12-20 16:49:02 <RichardG> xelister: great idea :D
4153 2010-12-20 16:49:46 <MT`AwAy> xelister: if you feel like giving out, you can donate to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin:Contributors_Award (it'll help motivate people make a better wiki)
4154 2010-12-20 16:49:47 <Kiba> today's blocks is 98522?
4155 2010-12-20 16:49:55 <RichardG> I invited a friend here, he might appear here
4156 2010-12-20 16:50:00 <Kiba> total blocks is 98522?
4157 2010-12-20 16:50:16 <xelister> since people still ask; html filtering bid is over (paid to MT`AwAy).  The picture bid may be open (PM me, limited funds up to 25btc ;)
4158 2010-12-20 16:50:19 <ArtForz> ?
4159 2010-12-20 16:50:21 <ArtForz> ;;bc,blocks
4160 2010-12-20 16:50:21 <gribble> 98579
4161 2010-12-20 16:51:16 <Kiba> bencoder's site is down...
4162 2010-12-20 16:51:23 <RichardG> but now I get it
4163 2010-12-20 16:51:27 <ArtForz> useful bot is useful
4164 2010-12-20 16:51:30 <RichardG> another way of getting bitcoins is
4165 2010-12-20 16:51:36 <RichardG> laughing at trolls like xelister on IRC
4166 2010-12-20 16:51:47 <EvanR-work> you can get paid for that??
4167 2010-12-20 16:52:13 <MT`AwAy> EvanR-work: if you're lucky
4168 2010-12-20 16:52:21 <RichardG> EvanR-work: I was sent 1.08 from MT and xelister for "failing at /ignoring xelister"
4169 2010-12-20 16:52:41 <xelister> .08 ?
4170 2010-12-20 16:52:51 <RichardG> MT sent me 1 btc
4171 2010-12-20 16:52:59 <RichardG> but I did like the CPU miners' xmas charity fund idea
4172 2010-12-20 16:53:02 <RichardG> :D
4173 2010-12-20 16:53:52 <xelister> we can call it Illusive Useless Tasks Disability
4174 2010-12-20 16:54:33 <RichardG> but for the record, I'm mining without a GPU and with a slow CPU even
4175 2010-12-20 16:54:39 <RichardG> CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2400+, 2.00 GHz, 256 KB (100% Load)
4176 2010-12-20 16:54:57 <helmut> ArtForz: yes. since keying is not necessarily and the key is openly shared I suggested a secret (also being shorter).
4177 2010-12-20 16:55:09 <helmut> ArtForz: all that is missing is a fancy gui
4178 2010-12-20 16:55:13 <xelister> it is like organizing 100 man with cars and buses, to go to nearest road and look around for any pennies that may be left in the dust - instead investing 100 USD to buy pickaxe and go to godl mine of other side of the road ;)
4179 2010-12-20 16:55:46 <Kiba> man
4180 2010-12-20 16:55:51 <Kiba> I am tired
4181 2010-12-20 16:56:01 * Kiba finish his daily hour for art
4182 2010-12-20 16:56:42 Shadowolf has joined
4183 2010-12-20 16:57:43 <MT`AwAy> mh
4184 2010-12-20 16:57:48 <MT`AwAy> I found out why it was so wrong
4185 2010-12-20 16:57:56 * MT`AwAy updates the node checker
4186 2010-12-20 16:58:28 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4187 2010-12-20 17:03:27 satamusic_ has joined
4188 2010-12-20 17:04:51 Shadowolf has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
4189 2010-12-20 17:05:54 TheAncientGoat has joined
4190 2010-12-20 17:05:55 Shadowolf has joined
4191 2010-12-20 17:11:10 Azetab has quit ()
4192 2010-12-20 17:11:44 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
4193 2010-12-20 17:11:44 <gribble> 14328.47063847
4194 2010-12-20 17:11:58 <UukGoblin> not /that/ bad I guess
4195 2010-12-20 17:12:03 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
4196 2010-12-20 17:12:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98583 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 200 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 30 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14328.47063847
4197 2010-12-20 17:12:46 Shadowolf is now known as Abhish
4198 2010-12-20 17:15:49 <MT`AwAy> 5 hours before maintenance time
4199 2010-12-20 17:17:24 mndrix1 has joined
4200 2010-12-20 17:17:30 <UukGoblin> ah, MT`AwAy, a lazy guy's question: what options are there currently of withdrawing USD from Mt Gox and how difficult are they?
4201 2010-12-20 17:17:49 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4202 2010-12-20 17:18:09 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin: that's a good question. For me (I'm in Japan) it's almost impossible
4203 2010-12-20 17:18:27 <UukGoblin> oh
4204 2010-12-20 17:18:36 <UukGoblin> hang on, are you /the/ mt. gox guy?
4205 2010-12-20 17:18:45 <donpdonp> UukGoblin: its explained at https://mtgox.com/users/withdraw
4206 2010-12-20 17:19:00 <UukGoblin> I might have confused you because of the MT in your nick ;-]
4207 2010-12-20 17:19:44 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin: no
4208 2010-12-20 17:19:47 <UukGoblin> donpdonp, hrm I don't like the term 'Liberty Reserve is easy to use' without any explanation
4209 2010-12-20 17:19:54 <MT`AwAy> UukGoblin: mtgox is the mtgox guy
4210 2010-12-20 17:19:56 mndrix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
4211 2010-12-20 17:20:03 <donpdonp> UukGoblin: yes and in my research liberty reserve is kind of shady.
4212 2010-12-20 17:20:05 <UukGoblin> 1% charge by LR... and some charge by ExchangeZone I guess...
4213 2010-12-20 17:20:06 <ArtForz> iirc mtgox is mtgox, MT is MagicalTux
4214 2010-12-20 17:20:07 <UukGoblin> MT`AwAy, sorry
4215 2010-12-20 17:20:14 <UukGoblin> my bad
4216 2010-12-20 17:20:54 <ArtForz> LR fee is 1% with a max of $2.99, mtgox charges another 1%
4217 2010-12-20 17:21:04 <donpdonp> i would feel better if mtgox could use paypal directly, even though its more expensive than LR
4218 2010-12-20 17:21:40 <MT`AwAy> ArtForz: mtgox charges 0.65% if I'm not mistaken
4219 2010-12-20 17:21:41 <MT`AwAy> :p
4220 2010-12-20 17:21:51 <ArtForz> no, 0.65% on trades (both sides)
4221 2010-12-20 17:21:56 <ArtForz> another 1% for withdrawal
4222 2010-12-20 17:22:03 <ArtForz> + another 1% max 2.99 by LR
4223 2010-12-20 17:22:17 <UukGoblin> ah, there we go - that's much clearer
4224 2010-12-20 17:22:21 * UukGoblin hates hidden charges
4225 2010-12-20 17:22:23 <slush_cz> + another xxx % for withdrawal from LR :(
4226 2010-12-20 17:22:34 <UukGoblin> does ExchangeZone charge anything too?
4227 2010-12-20 17:22:40 <ArtForz> well, that depends on what exchanger you use
4228 2010-12-20 17:23:12 <sgornick> donpdonp: plenty of folks on #bitcoin-otc willing to pay above Mt. Gox using PPUSD for your BTC or MTGUSD.
4229 2010-12-20 17:23:22 <slush_cz> Still think that pay few % for paypal is cheapest way
4230 2010-12-20 17:23:24 <Kiba> liberty reserve have more search volume than bitcoin
4231 2010-12-20 17:23:25 <MT`AwAy> paypal charges 3.9%+0.25, then charges 2.5% for exchange
4232 2010-12-20 17:23:46 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
4233 2010-12-20 17:23:47 <gribble> {"active_workers": 77, "hashes_ps": 3681284803, "shares": 4733, "round_started": "2010-12-20 15:49:53"}
4234 2010-12-20 17:23:47 <donpdonp> sgornick: thx for the reminder. :)
4235 2010-12-20 17:23:50 <EvanR-work> bitcoingateway seems cheaper
4236 2010-12-20 17:23:53 <EvanR-work> if you can pull it off
4237 2010-12-20 17:23:54 <UukGoblin> mt. gox can't use paypal anymore afaik because they had problems with the account
4238 2010-12-20 17:23:56 <nanotube> slush_cz: looks like pool hash rate has dropped a bit...
4239 2010-12-20 17:24:12 jyaworski has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4240 2010-12-20 17:24:16 <UukGoblin> Sirius_, and is bitcoinexchange.com ever coming back?
4241 2010-12-20 17:24:17 <slush_cz> nanotube: I think it was because payments problem. I hope they will go back
4242 2010-12-20 17:24:17 <xelister> ArtForz: mtgox charges?
4243 2010-12-20 17:24:25 <slush_cz> come back
4244 2010-12-20 17:24:28 <ArtForz> xelister: ?
4245 2010-12-20 17:25:09 <donpdonp> xelister: yes, the dream is over. i thought it was free at first.
4246 2010-12-20 17:25:13 <ArtForz> yep
4247 2010-12-20 17:25:43 <donpdonp> ArtForz: ive seen the "small fee  (0.65%)" on https://mtgox.com/trade/sell but have never seen the 1% fee. they could use a page dedicated to outlining their fees
4248 2010-12-20 17:26:04 <ArtForz> yep, its explainer rather badly
4249 2010-12-20 17:26:12 <nanotube> donpdonp: send email to mtgox suggesting as such.
4250 2010-12-20 17:26:15 <ArtForz> *explained
4251 2010-12-20 17:26:59 davout has joined
4252 2010-12-20 17:27:22 <donpdonp> nanotube: good idea. done.
4253 2010-12-20 17:27:45 <ArtForz> LR fees really arent that bad compared to having to deal with paypal crazyness
4254 2010-12-20 17:28:33 <donpdonp> ArtForz: i have a hard time giving them contact information, etc. when everything is based in non-first-world countries
4255 2010-12-20 17:28:50 <ArtForz> why do you want to give LR contact info?
4256 2010-12-20 17:28:59 <donpdonp> ArtForz: because it asks for it?
4257 2010-12-20 17:29:46 <donpdonp> also the LR web design is terrible and doesnt instill confidence. i honestly thought i landed on some spammy parking page.
4258 2010-12-20 17:29:59 <ArtForz> first name/last name/email != contact info
4259 2010-12-20 17:30:10 <donpdonp> a generic woman/coffee cup+laptop? come on! :)
4260 2010-12-20 17:30:25 <donpdonp> ArtForz: this was last month but i thought they wanted a lot more than that.
4261 2010-12-20 17:31:19 <nanotube> donpdonp: what country are you in?
4262 2010-12-20 17:31:24 <donpdonp> nanotube: usa
4263 2010-12-20 17:31:31 <ArtForz> right, they changed their signup stuff a few months back
4264 2010-12-20 17:31:41 <nanotube> donpdonp: then you could withdraw by ach from mtgox
4265 2010-12-20 17:31:53 <ArtForz> now they want full address and all other kinds of crap
4266 2010-12-20 17:31:56 <donpdonp> nanotube: for transfers more than $800 it says
4267 2010-12-20 17:32:04 <donpdonp> nanotube: im smalltime :)
4268 2010-12-20 17:32:10 <nanotube> donpdonp: yea, so fill up your buffer before you withdraw. :)
4269 2010-12-20 17:32:28 <donpdonp> nanotube: my btc wallet is a 'buffer'? ha!
4270 2010-12-20 17:32:32 <xelister> USA wants to controll all trade. Perhaps feds approached mtgox?
4271 2010-12-20 17:32:34 <nanotube> heh
4272 2010-12-20 17:33:05 <ArtForz> oh, and theres a $1k/day withdrawal limit on mtgox
4273 2010-12-20 17:33:16 satamusic has joined
4274 2010-12-20 17:33:18 <donpdonp> woah, also good to know.
4275 2010-12-20 17:33:57 <UukGoblin> so if you want to use ACH you have to want to withdraw an amount between 800 and 1000?
4276 2010-12-20 17:34:12 <ArtForz> dunno, probably ACH doesnt have a limit
4277 2010-12-20 17:34:20 <UukGoblin> :-)
4278 2010-12-20 17:36:20 majnoon_ has joined
4279 2010-12-20 17:36:50 <donpdonp> ;;bc,stat
4280 2010-12-20 17:36:50 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
4281 2010-12-20 17:36:52 <donpdonp> ;;bc,stats
4282 2010-12-20 17:36:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98583 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 200 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 30 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14328.47063847
4283 2010-12-20 17:37:28 <donpdonp> heh 14k. not as big a jump as last time (8k to 12k)
4284 2010-12-20 17:37:37 <ArtForz> yeah
4285 2010-12-20 17:37:54 <MT`AwAy> wait for january
4286 2010-12-20 17:38:00 <MT`AwAy> when everyone got new GPU at xmas
4287 2010-12-20 17:38:04 <donpdonp> MT`AwAy: lolz
4288 2010-12-20 17:38:15 <slush_cz> ArtForz will bankrupt
4289 2010-12-20 17:38:16 <donpdonp> ArtForz: has ATI assigned a dedicated salesperson to you? :)
4290 2010-12-20 17:38:21 <nanotube> heh interesting prediction, MT`AwAy :)
4291 2010-12-20 17:38:32 <ArtForz> or february when first batch of chips arrives
4292 2010-12-20 17:38:49 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: on post-holidays I usually see an increase of sales on web hosting
4293 2010-12-20 17:38:59 <donpdonp> ArtForz: you mean the secret ASIC sha-busting chip project?
4294 2010-12-20 17:39:25 <ArtForz> not all that secret
4295 2010-12-20 17:39:30 <ArtForz> and really quite simple
4296 2010-12-20 17:39:33 <donpdonp> ok i was trying to make it sound cool.
4297 2010-12-20 17:39:58 <EvanR-work> sha1 ?
4298 2010-12-20 17:40:04 <ArtForz> sha256
4299 2010-12-20 17:40:09 <EvanR-work> wait what >_<
4300 2010-12-20 17:40:18 <donpdonp> ArtForz: where are you getting them manufactured at?
4301 2010-12-20 17:40:18 <EvanR-work> sha256 busting?
4302 2010-12-20 17:40:31 <nanotube> EvanR-work: not so much 'busting' as 'crunching'
4303 2010-12-20 17:40:40 <EvanR-work> would that make bitcoins worthless?
4304 2010-12-20 17:40:55 <donpdonp> EvanR-work: if sha256 were broken? yes, and probably USD at the same time :)
4305 2010-12-20 17:40:57 <slush_cz> EvanR-work: yes, you can give yours
4306 2010-12-20 17:40:59 <slush_cz> L)
4307 2010-12-20 17:41:14 <EvanR-work> ok so this project has no chance
4308 2010-12-20 17:41:15 <slush_cz> give me yours
4309 2010-12-20 17:41:46 <donpdonp> ha
4310 2010-12-20 17:43:29 <ArtForz> not exactly a real standard cell ASIC
4311 2010-12-20 17:43:31 <xelister> ArtForz: so you are going on with the custom chips idea?
4312 2010-12-20 17:43:36 <slush_cz> davout: Did you switched off miners?
4313 2010-12-20 17:43:40 <ArtForz> yup
4314 2010-12-20 17:43:48 <xelister> ArtForz: are you insane:P
4315 2010-12-20 17:44:02 <ArtForz> metal-layer defined ASIC, basically FPGA without the FP part
4316 2010-12-20 17:44:34 <EvanR-work> oh were talking about computing bitcoins faster, not cracking them
4317 2010-12-20 17:44:40 <ArtForz> yup
4318 2010-12-20 17:45:03 <ArtForz> 200Mh/s/engine
4319 2010-12-20 17:45:40 <xelister> production cost of engine?
4320 2010-12-20 17:46:10 <ArtForz> kinda high, a fully pipelined 128-stage sha2 engine isn't exactly small
4321 2010-12-20 17:46:31 <ArtForz> actually it's a 384 stage pipeline
4322 2010-12-20 17:46:31 <xelister> more or less...?
4323 2010-12-20 17:47:28 <ArtForz> a lot more $/Mh than GPUs
4324 2010-12-20 17:48:05 <xelister> then, why it makes sense?
4325 2010-12-20 17:48:13 <ArtForz> a lot more Mh/W
4326 2010-12-20 17:48:27 <donpdonp> xelister: more $/Mh is good, not bad :)
4327 2010-12-20 17:48:34 <donpdonp> er wait.
4328 2010-12-20 17:48:46 <ArtForz> donpdonp: no... not really
4329 2010-12-20 17:48:47 * donpdonp takes that back
4330 2010-12-20 17:49:00 <ArtForz> with fixed costs factored in, about $500/engine
4331 2010-12-20 17:49:05 <xelister> your engines use less energy per given hashes calculated then core of 5970 ?
4332 2010-12-20 17:49:15 <majnoon_> ok i just installed bitcoin :)
4333 2010-12-20 17:49:20 <ArtForz> yep
4334 2010-12-20 17:49:38 <donpdonp> i assume you've worked out the megahashes/watt to be profitable in the long run even though its more $ per Mh
4335 2010-12-20 17:49:45 <ArtForz> yep
4336 2010-12-20 17:49:59 <donpdonp> what about those PS3 cell processors? i wonder how well they'd do.
4337 2010-12-20 17:50:00 <xelister> green bitcoin
4338 2010-12-20 17:50:07 <ArtForz> beats 5970 on hash/W by a factor of 6
4339 2010-12-20 17:50:12 <donpdonp> Syngegistic Elements and all that
4340 2010-12-20 17:50:14 <xelister> ask Lolbana to give you some grant for green money :P
4341 2010-12-20 17:50:38 <ArtForz> and loses to 5970 on hash/$ by about a factor of 3
4342 2010-12-20 17:50:49 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4343 2010-12-20 17:50:53 <EvanR-work> bitcoins must pay the price for their damage to the environment
4344 2010-12-20 17:50:59 <EvanR-work> wheres that factored in
4345 2010-12-20 17:51:19 <donpdonp> EvanR-work: that bothers me too
4346 2010-12-20 17:51:23 <xelister> just ask BP to drill near you
4347 2010-12-20 17:51:29 <Kiba> OMG, WE DAMAGING OUR ENVIRONMENT WITH HEAT EMITTING CARBON DIOXIDE PRODUCING GPU FARMS!
4348 2010-12-20 17:51:37 <ArtForz> pushing voltage up would allow higher hashrates/engine, but it also kills efficiency very quickly
4349 2010-12-20 17:51:59 <xelister> so you invest like... 200.000 USD in this farm?
4350 2010-12-20 17:52:08 <EvanR-work> distribute ArtForz's asics to homeless shelters and use them also as heaters
4351 2010-12-20 17:52:12 <Kiba> that's almost half a million dollars
4352 2010-12-20 17:52:23 <EvanR-work> wouldnt that be ironic
4353 2010-12-20 17:52:28 <xelister> it would be priceless if week before Satoshi announces that due to weakness in sha256 we switch to other crypto formula :P
4354 2010-12-20 17:52:29 <donpdonp> id gladly sit on one of ArtForz's ASICs as an ass-warmer. its cold here in Oregon
4355 2010-12-20 17:52:32 Abhish has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4356 2010-12-20 17:53:05 <Kiba> xelister: eh?
4357 2010-12-20 17:54:09 <albatross> artforz: i thought electric was not a problem for you?
4358 2010-12-20 17:54:23 <ArtForz> in winter
4359 2010-12-20 17:54:48 <xelister> ArtForz: how flexible are this engines - have any other use?
4360 2010-12-20 17:55:16 <xelister> they quickly calculate... bitcoins (increment nonce inside them)?   or are they general sha256 engines
4361 2010-12-20 17:55:28 <ArtForz> well, they can act as normal sha2 engines
4362 2010-12-20 17:55:32 <ArtForz> sha256
4363 2010-12-20 17:55:39 <xelister> any other use?
4364 2010-12-20 17:55:44 <ArtForz> nope
4365 2010-12-20 17:55:47 <Diablo-D3> heh
4366 2010-12-20 17:55:49 <ArtForz> and kinda limited by I/O bandwidth
4367 2010-12-20 17:56:04 <EvanR-work> as usual
4368 2010-12-20 17:56:36 <xelister> incrementing on nonce can be in hardware?
4369 2010-12-20 17:56:39 <xelister> *of
4370 2010-12-20 17:56:45 <albatross> how does that setup work? a pci board hosting a bunch of these chips?
4371 2010-12-20 17:57:23 <ArtForz> yep, nonce incrementing can be done in hardware
4372 2010-12-20 17:57:47 <ArtForz> and in normal sha256 mode half of the engine isn't used at all
4373 2010-12-20 17:57:56 <xelister> at what stage are you with the design - still time to do changes to the project?
4374 2010-12-20 17:58:03 <ArtForz> nope
4375 2010-12-20 17:58:12 <xelister> already send to factory order??
4376 2010-12-20 17:58:19 <ArtForz> yep
4377 2010-12-20 17:58:25 <xelister> oh dear god :)
4378 2010-12-20 17:58:32 <ArtForz> only 100 chips for now though
4379 2010-12-20 17:58:36 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: join the pool! lol
4380 2010-12-20 17:59:34 mndrix1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
4381 2010-12-20 18:01:16 <majnoon_> so this just uses free cpu "clicks" to make the encryption for the currency ??
4382 2010-12-20 18:01:20 <xelister> ArtForz: for 2 blocks I would email you with several ideas how to make it a bit more usefull, with not huge hw modifications, for other computer users (then miners);  despite IO limit :)
4383 2010-12-20 18:01:42 TD_ has joined
4384 2010-12-20 18:02:14 <EvanR-work> xelister arent you like 16
4385 2010-12-20 18:02:27 majnoon_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4386 2010-12-20 18:02:31 <ArtForz> I/O is done via simple synchronous 8-bit link @ 100MHz DDR, so I'm limited to 200MB/s
4387 2010-12-20 18:03:13 satamusic has joined
4388 2010-12-20 18:03:21 <xelister> yeah, such limit is no problem for few ideas. the idea is another modes of operation then 1) nonce increment   2) simple sha256 calculation
4389 2010-12-20 18:03:34 <MT`AwAy>  19:01:35 up 195 days, 21:39,  2 users,  load average: 537.95, 516.95, 471.83
4390 2010-12-20 18:04:33 <ArtForz> the engine itself could handle >10GB/s
4391 2010-12-20 18:04:52 <ArtForz> well... > 10GB/s in 384 independent streams
4392 2010-12-20 18:05:02 <ArtForz> errr... 192
4393 2010-12-20 18:05:09 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4394 2010-12-20 18:05:11 <EvanR-work> lol at 'i/o kinda limits'
4395 2010-12-20 18:05:32 <EvanR-work> by a factor of 1000
4396 2010-12-20 18:05:43 <EvanR-work> or 100
4397 2010-12-20 18:05:48 <ArtForz> yep
4398 2010-12-20 18:06:04 <EvanR-work> so when these things go online we should expect faster inflation ;)
4399 2010-12-20 18:06:08 <EvanR-work> or?
4400 2010-12-20 18:06:25 <ArtForz> well, 20Gh/s isn't exactly that much
4401 2010-12-20 18:06:52 <ArtForz> it's only like 20% of the *current* network
4402 2010-12-20 18:06:52 <EvanR-work> actually inflation is the same, but you get more coins, right
4403 2010-12-20 18:06:58 <ArtForz> yep
4404 2010-12-20 18:07:06 <UukGoblin> 200Mh/s for how much Watts?
4405 2010-12-20 18:07:24 <ArtForz> about 10
4406 2010-12-20 18:07:37 <UukGoblin> mhm
4407 2010-12-20 18:07:42 majnoon_ has joined
4408 2010-12-20 18:07:44 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: you should call marketplace about this
4409 2010-12-20 18:08:03 <EvanR-work> tell them how much you spent, and how much you expect to earn, and why ;)
4410 2010-12-20 18:08:10 <EvanR-work> youll be famous, and so will bitcoins
4411 2010-12-20 18:08:43 <UukGoblin> EvanR-work, I'd rather be rich than famous...
4412 2010-12-20 18:08:52 <ArtForz> well, 8.3 W + PSU inefficiency @ 1.3V core and 200Mh/s
4413 2010-12-20 18:09:15 akem has joined
4414 2010-12-20 18:10:52 <ArtForz> and thats on a old 90nm process
4415 2010-12-20 18:11:12 <EvanR-work> 90 is old now? :S
4416 2010-12-20 18:11:32 <EvanR-work> youre going to run out of atoms!
4417 2010-12-20 18:11:35 <cosurgi> slush_cz: great, I got my next payment. From rough calculation my ATI 5830 Radeon is producing ~1BTC per hour, thanks to your pool!! :-D
4418 2010-12-20 18:11:46 <ArtForz> 45nm is current, 65nm is last gen
4419 2010-12-20 18:12:07 <ArtForz> using a more modern process would increase efficiency a lot, but the fixed costs are crazy
4420 2010-12-20 18:12:25 <xelister> ArtForz: could it be possible to make engine capable of sha1 as well sha256
4421 2010-12-20 18:12:26 <albatross> artforz: what's the cost of each chip?
4422 2010-12-20 18:12:39 <xelister> or is it bascailly as much work as making separate sha1 engine since parts are not reusable
4423 2010-12-20 18:13:16 <ArtForz> about $200 per chip
4424 2010-12-20 18:14:16 Shadowolf has joined
4425 2010-12-20 18:14:27 <ArtForz> + fixed costs
4426 2010-12-20 18:14:28 <EvanR-work> are you selling a stand alone pci card ?
4427 2010-12-20 18:14:33 <ArtForz> nope
4428 2010-12-20 18:14:37 <EvanR-work> :(
4429 2010-12-20 18:15:03 <EvanR-work> you could make a mint, but it sounds like you already have alot xD
4430 2010-12-20 18:15:11 Shadowolf is now known as Abhish
4431 2010-12-20 18:15:13 <ArtForz> 2U backplane-ish design
4432 2010-12-20 18:15:56 <albatross> fixed costs?
4433 2010-12-20 18:16:09 <albatross> oh...boards and such, psu?
4434 2010-12-20 18:16:29 <EvanR-work> the fabrication im sure?
4435 2010-12-20 18:16:34 <ArtForz> AC PSU is standard PC, DC-DC on backplane
4436 2010-12-20 18:17:01 <ArtForz> dunno about assembly costs yet, building the prototype myself
4437 2010-12-20 18:20:18 <ArtForz> master controller is a simple MCU, host connection 10baseT-FD
4438 2010-12-20 18:20:53 <albatross> artforz: one chip = 200Mh/s? at $200 that's about the same h/s as a 5970...except the wattage
4439 2010-12-20 18:21:44 <ArtForz> yep
4440 2010-12-20 18:21:51 <majnoon_> so this just uses free cpu "clicks" to make the encryption for the currency ??
4441 2010-12-20 18:22:08 <xelister> majnoon_: sort of, but better on gpu
4442 2010-12-20 18:22:29 <ArtForz> excluding fixed costs, discrete components, PCBs, connectors, backplane PCB, PSU, case, ...
4443 2010-12-20 18:22:36 <majnoon_> pretty good idea
4444 2010-12-20 18:24:47 <albatross> ahhh...ok, so including those costs is why it is 3x a 5970
4445 2010-12-20 18:24:57 <ArtForz> yep
4446 2010-12-20 18:25:17 <xelister> what about using your engine for other hash functions of this family?
4447 2010-12-20 18:25:22 <majnoon_> this ok on cpu timing ??
4448 2010-12-20 18:25:27 <majnoon_> no cpu hog ?
4449 2010-12-20 18:25:59 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
4450 2010-12-20 18:26:28 <ArtForz> kinda hard to do
4451 2010-12-20 18:27:00 <ArtForz> making the engine less fixed also makes it a lot slower
4452 2010-12-20 18:27:04 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
4453 2010-12-20 18:27:05 Grantt has joined
4454 2010-12-20 18:29:22 <majnoon_> what the AVERAGE time to make ONE coin ??
4455 2010-12-20 18:29:55 <nanotube> majnoon_: depends on your hash rate
4456 2010-12-20 18:30:13 <nanotube> if you mine with cpu, probably too long. :)
4457 2010-12-20 18:30:24 <majnoon_> said average
4458 2010-12-20 18:30:38 <lfm> majnoon_: the who;e bitcoin net is designed to be run at 6 blocks per hour with each block worth 50 bitcoin
4459 2010-12-20 18:32:05 <lfm> majnoon_: for the first 4 years anyway
4460 2010-12-20 18:32:33 <donpdonp> doesnt that limit the confirmation to take *at least* 10 minutes per transaction?
4461 2010-12-20 18:32:44 <majnoon_> got link to gpu version ??
4462 2010-12-20 18:32:54 <nanotube> donpdonp: yes, on avg
4463 2010-12-20 18:33:04 <donpdonp> i wouldnt want to wait 10 min to buy my shopping cart on retail-something.com.
4464 2010-12-20 18:33:11 <nanotube> majnoon_: there are conveniently placed links on the ,,pool page
4465 2010-12-20 18:33:11 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
4466 2010-12-20 18:33:15 <lfm> donpdonp: any number of transactions (almost) can be put into one block
4467 2010-12-20 18:33:19 <donpdonp> nanotube: that seems like a problem for general adoption
4468 2010-12-20 18:33:22 anarchyx has joined
4469 2010-12-20 18:33:34 <donpdonp> lfm: sure, they just all have to wait 10 mins.
4470 2010-12-20 18:33:38 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
4471 2010-12-20 18:33:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98584 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 199 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 29 minutes, and 23 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14263.27979914
4472 2010-12-20 18:33:46 <nanotube> donpdonp: for small tx amounts, where a person is unlikely to go through the effort of doublespending... you should be ok with 0 conf.
4473 2010-12-20 18:33:50 <majnoon_> where that ?? just HEARD about bitcoin 10 min ago
4474 2010-12-20 18:34:01 majnoon_ has left ()
4475 2010-12-20 18:34:01 majnoon_ has joined
4476 2010-12-20 18:34:09 <nanotube> donpdonp: but mostly... think ecommerce. you buy something... it's a while before it's packaged and shipped. plenty of time for confirmations.
4477 2010-12-20 18:34:20 <donpdonp> nanotube: heh unless its a digital downoald
4478 2010-12-20 18:34:29 <lfm> donpdonp: ya kinda, the transactions are transitted more quickly but they are only "confirmed" every 10 min or so on average
4479 2010-12-20 18:34:41 <nanotube> donpdonp: in that case... again - if it's not too expensive, merchant can choose to give it to you without waiting.
4480 2010-12-20 18:35:00 <nanotube> majnoon_: see link gribble posted.
4481 2010-12-20 18:35:11 [Noodles] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4482 2010-12-20 18:35:21 <tcatm> albatross: fixed.
4483 2010-12-20 18:35:58 <albatross> tcatm: awesome!
4484 2010-12-20 18:37:27 <lfm> donpdonp: for digital download it can have you fill out survey questionair while you wait for confirms
4485 2010-12-20 18:38:23 maximi89-away has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4486 2010-12-20 18:39:05 <donpdonp> lfm: ok take a stock market with thousands of transactions per second. 5-10min wait aint gonna cut it
4487 2010-12-20 18:39:09 maximi89 has joined
4488 2010-12-20 18:39:54 <lfm> donpdonp: true, usually you would do that with a local account separate from the bitcoin net proper, see how MTGOX.com woirks
4489 2010-12-20 18:40:04 <donpdonp> lfm: yes i see
4490 2010-12-20 18:40:26 <donpdonp> nyse trades arent deposited into checking accounts on a per-trade basis :)
4491 2010-12-20 18:40:43 <lfm> ya, prolly the same idea
4492 2010-12-20 18:41:01 <nanotube> indeed :)
4493 2010-12-20 18:41:12 AAA_awright_ has joined
4494 2010-12-20 18:41:36 [Noodles] has joined
4495 2010-12-20 18:41:41 <lfm> donpdonp: ya, a broker account or whatever
4496 2010-12-20 18:42:19 <albatross> artforz: so, if my math is right, you just spent $60K on these chips :O
4497 2010-12-20 18:43:20 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4498 2010-12-20 18:43:36 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
4499 2010-12-20 18:45:33 <ArtForz> more like 65k
4500 2010-12-20 18:45:59 <albatross> lol...meh...what's another 5K :)
4501 2010-12-20 18:46:47 <xelister> ArtForz: what would you do with the chips later?
4502 2010-12-20 18:47:36 <lfm> xelister: later? what? after bitcoin crashes and burns?
4503 2010-12-20 18:48:51 <lfm> or when the next generation of chips after them comes online?
4504 2010-12-20 18:50:20 <xelister> if it would become improfitable
4505 2010-12-20 18:50:39 <xelister> alhough long term electricity seems to count the most and here ArtForz's wins
4506 2010-12-20 18:51:02 <xelister> ArtForz: but still, what would you do if say in 1 year it becomes not proffitable to run this farm
4507 2010-12-20 18:51:16 <lfm> xelister: well I cant immagine they'd be any use for anything else but im not sure my immagination is accurate
4508 2010-12-20 18:52:01 majnoon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4509 2010-12-20 18:52:02 <ArtForz> well, I guess with some glue you could them as more-or-less decent sha256 crypto accelerators
4510 2010-12-20 18:53:04 TD_ has joined
4511 2010-12-20 18:53:20 <lfm> dont they do the increment nonce and second stage on chip? or does a microcontroller do that stuff?
4512 2010-12-20 18:53:32 <ArtForz> they do, but that can be disabled
4513 2010-12-20 18:53:53 <ArtForz> so you can run the first half as a normal sha256 engine
4514 2010-12-20 18:54:18 <lfm> ok, if they can still be used as general purpose sha2 chips then they may have some residual value
4515 2010-12-20 18:54:45 majnoon has joined
4516 2010-12-20 18:56:04 <ArtForz> oh, and they have a 3rd mode, too
4517 2010-12-20 18:56:23 <lfm> maybe we should start a movment to have bitcoin change its hash function now to keep the field competitive!
4518 2010-12-20 18:56:31 TheAncientGoat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4519 2010-12-20 18:56:49 Toadyonps3 has joined
4520 2010-12-20 18:57:35 <lfm> 3rd mode?
4521 2010-12-20 18:57:42 <ArtForz> yup
4522 2010-12-20 18:58:37 <ArtForz> pbkdf2
4523 2010-12-20 18:59:36 <xelister> that was one of my ideas, ArtForz
4524 2010-12-20 18:59:50 <ArtForz> though it's not wpas variant
4525 2010-12-20 18:59:54 <ArtForz> wpa uses sha1
4526 2010-12-20 19:01:05 <lfm> whats that for? brute forcing some sort of passwords?
4527 2010-12-20 19:01:10 <ArtForz> yep
4528 2010-12-20 19:01:26 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4529 2010-12-20 19:01:26 <ArtForz> pbkdf2 is a password hashing function designed to be really slow
4530 2010-12-20 19:01:52 <ArtForz> basically running a password through a hash function a few 1000 times
4531 2010-12-20 19:01:54 <lfm> who uses it?
4532 2010-12-20 19:02:11 <ArtForz> no clue
4533 2010-12-20 19:02:19 * xelister knows
4534 2010-12-20 19:02:34 <lfm> hehe ok, noy a high demand for it then
4535 2010-12-20 19:02:49 <lfm> not
4536 2010-12-20 19:03:23 bencoder has joined
4537 2010-12-20 19:03:55 <nanotube> lfm: wikipedia it... it's used in a bunch of places. wpa being one of them.
4538 2010-12-20 19:04:02 <nanotube> ;;wp pbkdf2
4539 2010-12-20 19:04:02 <gribble> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBKDF2 | PBKDF2 (Password-Based Key Derivation Function) is a key derivation function that is part of RSA Laboratories' Public-Key Cryptography Standards (PKCS) ...
4540 2010-12-20 19:04:10 <ArtForz> yeah, but most use sha1-pbkdf2
4541 2010-12-20 19:04:20 <nanotube> mm
4542 2010-12-20 19:04:25 <xelister> there is a place where pbkdf2 breaking would be worth fortune
4543 2010-12-20 19:05:03 <nanotube> xelister: namely?
4544 2010-12-20 19:05:13 <tcatm> You could secure a bitcoin wallet with that PBKDF2 so no normal computer can access it in reasonable amount of time
4545 2010-12-20 19:06:17 <ArtForz> yeah, looks like no one is using sha256-pbkdf2
4546 2010-12-20 19:07:13 <xelister> sha1-pbkdf2 would rock
4547 2010-12-20 19:07:51 <ArtForz> yup, sha1-pbkdf2 is used at least in wpa, odf, winzip-aes
4548 2010-12-20 19:08:35 <ArtForz> problem is sha1 and sha2 family are so dissimilar it's pretty much pointless to make a combined engine
4549 2010-12-20 19:08:42 <lfm> oh well you'll be ready for then if they go to sha256 then
4550 2010-12-20 19:10:04 <ArtForz> guess so
4551 2010-12-20 19:10:29 <xelister> in soviet russia,
4552 2010-12-20 19:10:42 <xelister> there encrypt everything with pbkdf2,
4553 2010-12-20 19:10:50 <xelister> with iterations=10milion, digest=xor
4554 2010-12-20 19:11:29 tylergillies has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4555 2010-12-20 19:12:08 <lfm> no relation to tigerlillies i presume
4556 2010-12-20 19:16:31 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4557 2010-12-20 19:17:13 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why people think sha1 and sha2 are related
4558 2010-12-20 19:17:29 <bencoder> the name, perhaps?
4559 2010-12-20 19:17:51 <Diablo-D3> thats like saying president bush and president clinton are related
4560 2010-12-20 19:17:52 <bencoder> seems pretty obvious why people think they're related
4561 2010-12-20 19:17:56 <Diablo-D3> "well, they both have the same title!"
4562 2010-12-20 19:19:03 <Diablo-D3> a;sp
4563 2010-12-20 19:19:05 <Diablo-D3> also
4564 2010-12-20 19:19:13 <Diablo-D3> if you REALLY want a chip that does all shit well
4565 2010-12-20 19:19:45 <Diablo-D3> have it do bitrotates, add, and/or/xor/whatever, and whatnot very quickly
4566 2010-12-20 19:19:53 tylergillies has joined
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4568 2010-12-20 19:19:53 tylergillies has joined
4569 2010-12-20 19:20:03 <xelister> Diablo-D3: because they may share basic things like ops on the cpu... I dont know how flexible it is
4570 2010-12-20 19:20:11 <xelister> yea, eactly my point
4571 2010-12-20 19:20:17 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt really need to do anything else than specifically those
4572 2010-12-20 19:20:19 <lfm> Diablo-D3: you mean like have it do x86 (real quickly)?
4573 2010-12-20 19:20:30 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, more like be the integer part of the radeon ALU
4574 2010-12-20 19:20:35 <ArtForz> yep, you'd basically have to build a ALU
4575 2010-12-20 19:20:50 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt have to be a complex ALU
4576 2010-12-20 19:20:52 <Diablo-D3> just a very wide one
4577 2010-12-20 19:21:05 <ArtForz> yep
4578 2010-12-20 19:21:12 <lfm> so then some dam fool will start to use encryption based on floating point
4579 2010-12-20 19:21:19 <Diablo-D3> lfm: not reproducable nor useful
4580 2010-12-20 19:21:29 <ArtForz> basically a vector ALU
4581 2010-12-20 19:21:31 <xelister> lfm: nah
4582 2010-12-20 19:21:41 <ArtForz> should be useful if you have many concurrent streams
4583 2010-12-20 19:21:41 <lfm> if its ieee it should be ok
4584 2010-12-20 19:22:31 <lfm> it would be a good way to expose ieee implementation bugs
4585 2010-12-20 19:25:32 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4586 2010-12-20 19:26:38 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it'd also be useful for just slamming shit
4587 2010-12-20 19:26:43 <Diablo-D3> and it wouldnt need ram
4588 2010-12-20 19:27:06 <Diablo-D3> it'd just have like, say, 128 int registers per pipe
4589 2010-12-20 19:27:22 <Diablo-D3> and then space for the instruction list
4590 2010-12-20 19:27:52 <ArtForz> yup, so basically a GPU-like vector machine without floating point
4591 2010-12-20 19:28:13 <Diablo-D3> basically.
4592 2010-12-20 19:28:18 <Diablo-D3> I mean, lets face it, AMD did shit right here
4593 2010-12-20 19:28:23 <Diablo-D3> its all that FPU shit that we dont need
4594 2010-12-20 19:28:44 <Diablo-D3> they even made branching and simple non-unrolled loops worthwhile
4595 2010-12-20 19:30:03 <Diablo-D3> we dont need those in hashing stuff usually
4596 2010-12-20 19:30:18 <Diablo-D3> but this chip, at this point, would be useful in other similar applications
4597 2010-12-20 19:30:56 AAA_awright_ has joined
4598 2010-12-20 19:31:31 <ArtForz> but a metric crapload of more work compared to simple fixed-function engines
4599 2010-12-20 19:32:08 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: sadly, yes
4600 2010-12-20 19:32:16 <Diablo-D3> I mean, we're basically right back at to where AMD already is
4601 2010-12-20 19:32:30 <ArtForz> I kinda like VIAs approach
4602 2010-12-20 19:32:33 RichardG has joined
4603 2010-12-20 19:32:36 <Diablo-D3> a very flexible ALU that uses micro-programs and its wide as fuck
4604 2010-12-20 19:32:57 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4605 2010-12-20 19:33:00 <Diablo-D3> the only difference is AMD was nice enough to include a fp engine too ;)
4606 2010-12-20 19:33:14 <Diablo-D3> AMD probably could actually get business for a chip that was a radeon 5xxx minus all the fp shit
4607 2010-12-20 19:33:16 <xelister> bastards
4608 2010-12-20 19:33:24 <ArtForz> their crypto engine is basically just single rounds of a bunch of crypto functions
4609 2010-12-20 19:33:32 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, which is limited
4610 2010-12-20 19:33:43 <Diablo-D3> no one really wants a chip that cant do everything forever
4611 2010-12-20 19:33:47 <ArtForz> well, but useful for... crypto
4612 2010-12-20 19:33:59 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but look at sha2
4613 2010-12-20 19:34:01 <Diablo-D3> thats rsn
4614 2010-12-20 19:34:04 <Diablo-D3> er
4615 2010-12-20 19:34:05 <Diablo-D3> sha3
4616 2010-12-20 19:34:12 <ArtForz> CPUs generally get replaced faster than crypto functions, it should work fine
4617 2010-12-20 19:34:18 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but routers dont
4618 2010-12-20 19:34:26 <xelister> ArtForz: if your boxes would support also sha1, it woulbe be basically x2 more expensive?
4619 2010-12-20 19:34:40 <ArtForz> not quite x2, sha1 is a lot less complex than sha2
4620 2010-12-20 19:34:41 <Diablo-D3> people still have 5-10 year old ciscos running their corp vpn shit
4621 2010-12-20 19:34:50 <Diablo-D3> xelister: not x2, its just using die space
4622 2010-12-20 19:35:02 <xelister> bbl
4623 2010-12-20 19:35:05 <Diablo-D3> so you'd maybe waste 20% die space
4624 2010-12-20 19:35:13 <Diablo-D3> because not all the die is dedicated to sha2
4625 2010-12-20 19:35:31 <ArtForz> about 87% is
4626 2010-12-20 19:35:42 <lfm> make em socketed and upgradable then
4627 2010-12-20 19:35:52 <Diablo-D3> okay, maybe waste 40% of the die.
4628 2010-12-20 19:35:57 <Diablo-D3> lfm: sockets cost money
4629 2010-12-20 19:36:15 <lfm> compared to a router, ?
4630 2010-12-20 19:36:16 <Diablo-D3> I mean, basically, we keep heading back to "lets buy radeons"
4631 2010-12-20 19:36:22 <ArtForz> which is also the reason why I "only" have 3 pipline stages per round, another stage and I'd have to move to a even bigger chip
4632 2010-12-20 19:38:48 <xelister> anyway, with sha1 added there, I can give you interesting uses for your hardware
4633 2010-12-20 19:39:18 <Diablo-D3> doing what?
4634 2010-12-20 19:39:23 <Diablo-D3> sha1 should no longer be deployed
4635 2010-12-20 19:39:28 <ArtForz> yup, lots of shit uses sha1-pbkdf2
4636 2010-12-20 19:39:35 <xelister> its a secret worth 2 blocks ;)
4637 2010-12-20 19:39:36 Sherpa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4638 2010-12-20 19:39:45 <xelister> wifi is not really worth a fortune, other things are
4639 2010-12-20 19:40:23 <lfm> mayeb something in ATMs or soemthing
4640 2010-12-20 19:44:38 RichardG has quit (Quit: -Global- [B] Please return your seatbacks and tray tables to their full-upright position... one of our bobsleds slipped off the tracks.... /msg KillaH with complaints. But for now we've put it back on and expect smooth sailing for the remainder of the fl)
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4648 2010-12-20 19:53:41 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
4649 2010-12-20 19:57:12 AAA_awright_ has joined
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4651 2010-12-20 19:59:29 Slix` has joined
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4654 2010-12-20 20:00:35 bitanarchy has joined
4655 2010-12-20 20:01:05 <bitanarchy> This page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve is up for speedy deletion... maybe someone knows how to give it some encyclopedic value?
4656 2010-12-20 20:03:10 satamusic has joined
4657 2010-12-20 20:04:54 <bonsaikitten> lol, deletipedia
4658 2010-12-20 20:05:26 vress has joined
4659 2010-12-20 20:05:55 <bitanarchy> burocropedia
4660 2010-12-20 20:11:30 <EvanR-work> what about this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
4661 2010-12-20 20:12:19 <EvanR-work> i actually almost got scammed by this when i was younger
4662 2010-12-20 20:12:26 <EvanR-work> nice to see its defunct
4663 2010-12-20 20:12:40 <Diablo-D3> scammed, not really
4664 2010-12-20 20:12:56 AAA_awright has joined
4665 2010-12-20 20:12:57 <Diablo-D3> its no different than BTC, really
4666 2010-12-20 20:13:13 AAA_awright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4667 2010-12-20 20:13:14 <EvanR-work> except you had to trust the company, and they got raided
4668 2010-12-20 20:13:15 <Diablo-D3> the problem is the FBI steped in where it shouldnt have
4669 2010-12-20 20:13:24 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: yes, our own government did
4670 2010-12-20 20:13:32 twobitcoins has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4671 2010-12-20 20:13:37 <Diablo-D3> because, apparently, criminals do not like competition
4672 2010-12-20 20:13:55 <EvanR-work> if they were laundering money
4673 2010-12-20 20:14:08 <Diablo-D3> laundering money exists, period
4674 2010-12-20 20:14:13 <Diablo-D3> you cant blame random people for it happening
4675 2010-12-20 20:14:27 <Diablo-D3> if I launder money using gift cards, do the feds get to raid the local walmart?
4676 2010-12-20 20:14:33 <Diablo-D3> where does the bullshit end
4677 2010-12-20 20:14:36 <EvanR-work> it should be harder for the government to justify/stop bitcoin
4678 2010-12-20 20:14:42 <EvanR-work> justfying stopping / stop
4679 2010-12-20 20:14:50 <Diablo-D3> the government DOESNT have to justify itself
4680 2010-12-20 20:15:00 <EvanR-work> it does
4681 2010-12-20 20:15:01 <Diablo-D3> because the american people no longer command the government to follow the constitution
4682 2010-12-20 20:15:12 <EvanR-work> i say it does
4683 2010-12-20 20:15:13 <Diablo-D3> all the government has to do is paint you as some sort of terrorist
4684 2010-12-20 20:15:18 <Diablo-D3> and the sheeple go along with it
4685 2010-12-20 20:15:34 <EvanR-work> yes
4686 2010-12-20 20:15:36 <EvanR-work> its not just
4687 2010-12-20 20:16:08 <Diablo-D3> what they did to the liberty dollar was not just
4688 2010-12-20 20:16:30 <Diablo-D3> up front, at every step of the way, they declared the USD worthless and said that the Liberty Dollar is not USD at all in any way
4689 2010-12-20 20:16:31 <xelister> EvanR-work: it doesnt need to justify
4690 2010-12-20 20:16:34 <Diablo-D3> it is not legal tender
4691 2010-12-20 20:16:43 <Diablo-D3> the government is going to win
4692 2010-12-20 20:16:44 <xelister> EvanR-work: why usa gov attacked iraq? why are you still invading iraq?
4693 2010-12-20 20:16:46 <Diablo-D3> because they're bigger
4694 2010-12-20 20:16:46 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4695 2010-12-20 20:16:50 <EvanR-work> xelister shut up
4696 2010-12-20 20:16:52 <Diablo-D3> not because they're right
4697 2010-12-20 20:16:53 <ArtForz> yup, BS charges to make the problem go away
4698 2010-12-20 20:16:55 <Diablo-D3> not only that
4699 2010-12-20 20:17:03 <Diablo-D3> everyone who had _their_ coins stolen
4700 2010-12-20 20:17:07 <ArtForz> yep
4701 2010-12-20 20:17:07 <Diablo-D3> the warehouse that had all those coins?
4702 2010-12-20 20:17:10 <Diablo-D3> most were already paid for
4703 2010-12-20 20:17:14 <Diablo-D3> that was private citizen property
4704 2010-12-20 20:17:16 <xelister> EvanR-work: worthy reply sir, "shut up". Are you idiot
4705 2010-12-20 20:17:20 <Diablo-D3> they also froze the cash
4706 2010-12-20 20:17:25 <ArtForz> yep, have fun trying to get it back
4707 2010-12-20 20:17:26 <Diablo-D3> so the money couldnt be returned either
4708 2010-12-20 20:17:27 * xelister slaps EvanR-work with a cluebat
4709 2010-12-20 20:17:27 <EvanR-work> i need the facts on liberty dollars
4710 2010-12-20 20:17:39 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: wikipedia actually covers it pretty well
4711 2010-12-20 20:17:52 maximi89 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4712 2010-12-20 20:17:54 <ArtForz> yep
4713 2010-12-20 20:17:58 <Diablo-D3> and what pisses me off is
4714 2010-12-20 20:18:02 <Kiba> xelister: ya know, I am getting tired of your ranting
4715 2010-12-20 20:18:06 <Diablo-D3> they basically attacked the liberty dollar because of ron paul
4716 2010-12-20 20:18:10 <Diablo-D3> it was an internal republican job
4717 2010-12-20 20:18:20 <Diablo-D3> it wasnt even the real government at work here
4718 2010-12-20 20:18:31 <EvanR-work> the guy was charged with something but never convicted?
4719 2010-12-20 20:18:32 <Diablo-D3> it was the slime at the bottom of the barrel of slime
4720 2010-12-20 20:18:37 <xelister> Kiba: go watch foxnews
4721 2010-12-20 20:18:42 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: the government keeps stalling the case
4722 2010-12-20 20:18:50 <EvanR-work> i thought ron paul would approve of libert dollars
4723 2010-12-20 20:18:52 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: and they already destroyed the coins
4724 2010-12-20 20:19:02 <Diablo-D3> ron paul DID approve of liberty dollars.... one of the coins had his face on it!
4725 2010-12-20 20:19:11 <Kiba> xelister: I don't have time for nonsense like this.
4726 2010-12-20 20:19:25 <Diablo-D3> they were selling ron paul liberty dollars at a higher premium and donating the portion to ron paul's campaign
4727 2010-12-20 20:19:36 <EvanR-work> ._.
4728 2010-12-20 20:19:38 <Diablo-D3> because ron paul is against the federal reserve
4729 2010-12-20 20:19:48 <EvanR-work> why isnt ron paul in jail, i wonder
4730 2010-12-20 20:19:48 <Diablo-D3> and the republicans basically threw ron paul under the bus
4731 2010-12-20 20:20:00 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: because that would make him like a God
4732 2010-12-20 20:20:09 <Diablo-D3> remember, hes a Representative
4733 2010-12-20 20:20:19 <Diablo-D3> you cant touch him any more than you can touch the rest of Congress
4734 2010-12-20 20:20:40 <Diablo-D3> the moment they attack him overtly is the moment every goddamned motherfucker out there marches in Washington
4735 2010-12-20 20:20:48 <Diablo-D3> there wont be a Fed Reserve left to worry about
4736 2010-12-20 20:21:50 <Diablo-D3> I wish Liberty Dollar luck
4737 2010-12-20 20:21:53 <EvanR-work> if alternative currency is illegal, i think there should be a law about it first
4738 2010-12-20 20:21:55 twobitcoins has joined
4739 2010-12-20 20:22:00 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: its not illegal
4740 2010-12-20 20:22:04 <Diablo-D3> nor can they make it illegal
4741 2010-12-20 20:22:07 <ArtForz> its not illegal
4742 2010-12-20 20:22:12 <EvanR-work> thats what i mean
4743 2010-12-20 20:22:14 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: I thought they got Liberty Dollars for...
4744 2010-12-20 20:22:15 <Kiba> umm
4745 2010-12-20 20:22:17 <Diablo-D3> that means anybody from a foreign country would immediately get arrested on their way in
4746 2010-12-20 20:22:19 <Kiba> what it's called?
4747 2010-12-20 20:22:22 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: fraud
4748 2010-12-20 20:22:27 <Diablo-D3> different counts of it
4749 2010-12-20 20:22:48 <Diablo-D3> but at no point did Liberty Dollar say they were counterfeiting legal tender
4750 2010-12-20 20:22:51 <Kiba> thought the owner got charged and then sent to prison
4751 2010-12-20 20:22:53 <ArtForz> they're *charged* with counterfeiting basically
4752 2010-12-20 20:23:02 <Diablo-D3> the major selling point WAS that its not legal tender, in any way
4753 2010-12-20 20:23:09 <Diablo-D3> its actual physical real money that the government has zero control over
4754 2010-12-20 20:23:11 <Kiba> and they were let go?
4755 2010-12-20 20:23:22 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: no one has been arrested over it iirc
4756 2010-12-20 20:23:27 <Diablo-D3> no wait
4757 2010-12-20 20:23:30 <Diablo-D3> he was
4758 2010-12-20 20:23:32 <ArtForz> yep
4759 2010-12-20 20:23:34 <Diablo-D3> middle of last year
4760 2010-12-20 20:23:40 <Kiba> sent to prison?
4761 2010-12-20 20:23:44 <Diablo-D3> no trail yet
4762 2010-12-20 20:23:45 <Kiba> and all that?
4763 2010-12-20 20:23:51 <Diablo-D3> government keeps pushing the case back
4764 2010-12-20 20:23:53 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: they are sure taking their ass time
4765 2010-12-20 20:23:54 <Diablo-D3> because they cant prove it
4766 2010-12-20 20:24:01 <Diablo-D3> and they already destroyed all the coins
4767 2010-12-20 20:24:05 <Diablo-D3> and the presses
4768 2010-12-20 20:24:07 <Kiba> THE RIGHT TO SPEEDY TRIAL!
4769 2010-12-20 20:24:25 <EvanR-work> why does ron paul help them
4770 2010-12-20 20:24:27 <EvanR-work> doesnt
4771 2010-12-20 20:24:37 <EvanR-work> im losing respect for the man
4772 2010-12-20 20:24:38 <Diablo-D3> even if they paid restitution to not only Liberty Dollar but all the private citizens who's property they destroyed, the Liberty Dollar is gone forever
4773 2010-12-20 20:24:44 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: what can he do?
4774 2010-12-20 20:24:51 <EvanR-work> bitch about it on fox news
4775 2010-12-20 20:24:58 <Diablo-D3> hes not really allowed on fox news
4776 2010-12-20 20:25:00 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4777 2010-12-20 20:25:05 <EvanR-work> ive seen him on several times
4778 2010-12-20 20:25:07 <Diablo-D3> and what would fox news do here?
4779 2010-12-20 20:25:12 <AAA_awright> Huh?
4780 2010-12-20 20:25:14 <Diablo-D3> fox news continues to support a republican agenda
4781 2010-12-20 20:25:14 <EvanR-work> i dont know
4782 2010-12-20 20:25:17 <ArtForz> seems the charge is basically "their coins are round and shiny, idiots could mistake them for fed money"
4783 2010-12-20 20:25:25 <AAA_awright> Where have you been Diablo-D3?
4784 2010-12-20 20:25:27 <Diablo-D3> ron paul already spoke out against this
4785 2010-12-20 20:25:35 * Diablo-D3 is on his email list
4786 2010-12-20 20:25:36 <AAA_awright> Ron Paul practically owns Fox News Channel
4787 2010-12-20 20:25:42 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: hurrr I dont think so
4788 2010-12-20 20:25:46 <AAA_awright> Glenn Beck has covered the Liberty Dollar too
4789 2010-12-20 20:25:48 <Diablo-D3> Ron Paul does not support terrorist activities.
4790 2010-12-20 20:25:56 <Diablo-D3> Glenn Beck has covered it negitively
4791 2010-12-20 20:26:02 <AAA_awright> No
4792 2010-12-20 20:26:03 <Diablo-D3> hes too busy pushing that Gold4Cash shit
4793 2010-12-20 20:26:13 <Kiba> lol
4794 2010-12-20 20:26:14 <AAA_awright> wtf?
4795 2010-12-20 20:26:21 <AAA_awright> He's saying BUY gold
4796 2010-12-20 20:26:24 <Diablo-D3> Glenn Beck cannot be trusted, hes a puppet for the Republican scheme
4797 2010-12-20 20:26:36 <EvanR-work> hes not a real person
4798 2010-12-20 20:26:43 <Diablo-D3> hes insane
4799 2010-12-20 20:26:46 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4800 2010-12-20 20:26:49 <AAA_awright> Uh, where have you been the last decade when he bashed the Bush administration inside and out?
4801 2010-12-20 20:26:56 dwdollar has joined
4802 2010-12-20 20:26:59 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: because he works for the highest paid bidder
4803 2010-12-20 20:27:00 <AAA_awright> That's why he wasn't popular all through then
4804 2010-12-20 20:27:03 <Diablo-D3> look where he is now
4805 2010-12-20 20:27:05 <Diablo-D3> hes on Fox News
4806 2010-12-20 20:27:15 <Diablo-D3> he constantly bashes Obama and touts Republican ideals
4807 2010-12-20 20:27:19 <Diablo-D3> because they pay him to
4808 2010-12-20 20:27:24 <AAA_awright> What Republican ideals? Cut spending?
4809 2010-12-20 20:27:25 <Diablo-D3> and hes gotten to the point that he believes his own lies
4810 2010-12-20 20:27:34 <EvanR-work> hes an entertainer
4811 2010-12-20 20:27:42 <AAA_awright> EvanR-work: Is that a bad thing?
4812 2010-12-20 20:27:42 <xelister> is Glenn Beck a good reporter though? ;)
4813 2010-12-20 20:27:42 <Diablo-D3> Yes, they want to cut Social Security, and Medicare, and Welfare and schools.
4814 2010-12-20 20:27:47 <Diablo-D3> Poor people dont need anything at all!
4815 2010-12-20 20:27:50 <Diablo-D3> Lets cut them out!
4816 2010-12-20 20:27:50 <EvanR-work> AAA_awright: it is if i have to watch him
4817 2010-12-20 20:27:58 <Diablo-D3> More tax breaks for the rich! yeeeahw!
4818 2010-12-20 20:28:06 <Diablo-D3> Thats what it is to be a Republican.
4819 2010-12-20 20:28:08 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: How is that a bad thing?
4820 2010-12-20 20:28:10 <Diablo-D3> You're white, male, and rich.
4821 2010-12-20 20:28:18 <Diablo-D3> And you fuck over anybody and everybody.
4822 2010-12-20 20:28:26 Azetab has joined
4823 2010-12-20 20:28:28 <Diablo-D3> They're trash
4824 2010-12-20 20:28:32 <Diablo-D3> They're the cancer of society
4825 2010-12-20 20:28:38 <Diablo-D3> And they need to be wiped out.
4826 2010-12-20 20:28:46 <EvanR-work> what kind of guns do you have?
4827 2010-12-20 20:28:49 <Diablo-D3> We need _less_ spending, not more.
4828 2010-12-20 20:28:49 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: No, you've just demonstrated that you know nothing about his position, especially thinking that he somehow supports Cash4gold I mean wtf... take a step back and re-examine him please
4829 2010-12-20 20:28:59 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: Ive seen his show, its trash
4830 2010-12-20 20:29:19 <Diablo-D3> our Founding Fathers must be rolling in their graves at high enough velocities that we have green power forever
4831 2010-12-20 20:29:24 <EvanR-work> (joking of course)
4832 2010-12-20 20:29:37 <Diablo-D3> I mean, look how they fucked up the health care bill
4833 2010-12-20 20:29:41 <Kiba> aren't they rich, white, and male?
4834 2010-12-20 20:29:46 <Kiba> the founding fathers
4835 2010-12-20 20:29:57 <Diablo-D3> Obama's original proposal was to spend less and get more
4836 2010-12-20 20:30:17 <AAA_awright> Since when was that the real intention?
4837 2010-12-20 20:30:22 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: it always was
4838 2010-12-20 20:30:27 <AAA_awright> The plan from day 1 was mess the system up horribly
4839 2010-12-20 20:30:28 <Diablo-D3> Obama can see the future as well as anyone else
4840 2010-12-20 20:30:42 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: Obama wanted to remove all the Bush shit he did to Medicare
4841 2010-12-20 20:30:51 <AAA_awright> And why didn't he?
4842 2010-12-20 20:31:04 <Diablo-D3> Medicare, who represents the largest group of citizens, used to be able to negotiate with drug companies over price
4843 2010-12-20 20:31:06 <Diablo-D3> directly.
4844 2010-12-20 20:31:11 <Diablo-D3> Bush removed that.
4845 2010-12-20 20:31:20 <TD_> does anyone have a tool that can extract keypairs from the wallet.db file?
4846 2010-12-20 20:31:29 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
4847 2010-12-20 20:31:29 TD_ is now known as TD
4848 2010-12-20 20:31:35 <Diablo-D3> Thanks to Bush helping out his buddies in the health care industry, we now pay about twice as much for drugs.
4849 2010-12-20 20:31:44 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: how can Obama do it?
4850 2010-12-20 20:31:48 <Diablo-D3> he put it in his version of the bill
4851 2010-12-20 20:31:52 <Diablo-D3> the Republicans took it out
4852 2010-12-20 20:32:03 maximi89 has joined
4853 2010-12-20 20:32:06 <AAA_awright> The Republicans had NO power over that legsliation
4854 2010-12-20 20:32:06 <Diablo-D3> Hes the President, read your Constitution, hes not Superman.
4855 2010-12-20 20:32:07 <AAA_awright> None
4856 2010-12-20 20:32:17 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: they're the ones that held it up for 9 months.
4857 2010-12-20 20:32:23 <AAA_awright> How?
4858 2010-12-20 20:32:28 <Diablo-D3> because they kept stalling on it
4859 2010-12-20 20:32:30 <AAA_awright> THE DEMOCRATS HAD SUPERMAJORITIES IN BOTH HOUSES
4860 2010-12-20 20:32:35 <ArtForz> TD: m0 has a patch in git I think
4861 2010-12-20 20:32:45 <AAA_awright> There is NO WAY Republicans could have held it up alone
4862 2010-12-20 20:32:49 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: yes, and the Democrats wanted the Republicans to vote yes
4863 2010-12-20 20:32:55 <larsig> ron paul should advert free drugs
4864 2010-12-20 20:32:57 <Diablo-D3> instead of just cutting them straight out and voting yes themselves
4865 2010-12-20 20:33:13 <nanotube> ArtForz: isn't there something in bitcointools that can extract keypairs?
4866 2010-12-20 20:33:16 <Diablo-D3> Obama was afraid the Republicans would cause problems for him if he just had the Democrats do it alone
4867 2010-12-20 20:33:17 satamusic_ has joined
4868 2010-12-20 20:33:20 <ArtForz> probably too
4869 2010-12-20 20:33:25 <Diablo-D3> protip: THE REPUBLICANS CAUSE PROBLEMS NO MATTER WHAT THE OUTCOME IS
4870 2010-12-20 20:33:45 <Diablo-D3> I mean, fuck bipartisenship
4871 2010-12-20 20:33:49 <Diablo-D3> you're either right, or you're wrong
4872 2010-12-20 20:33:52 <Diablo-D3> theres no middle ground
4873 2010-12-20 20:34:00 <Diablo-D3> and if you fuck America, we fuck you right back.
4874 2010-12-20 20:34:07 * xelister fucks USA
4875 2010-12-20 20:34:17 <Diablo-D3> the Republicans don't even have the decency for a reach around
4876 2010-12-20 20:34:20 gavinandresen has left ()
4877 2010-12-20 20:34:45 <xelister> yeah I always wondered what is up with patriots, are their idiots
4878 2010-12-20 20:34:53 <dwdollar> I think we need a #bitcoin-politics?
4879 2010-12-20 20:34:59 <dwdollar> geez...
4880 2010-12-20 20:35:00 <AAA_awright> Try ##politico
4881 2010-12-20 20:35:09 <ArtForz> I think we need a #bitcoin-diablo-ranting
4882 2010-12-20 20:35:12 <EvanR-work> dwdollar: that makes sense
4883 2010-12-20 20:35:15 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4884 2010-12-20 20:35:22 <EvanR-work> bitcoin has policital ramifications in every country
4885 2010-12-20 20:35:23 <xelister> USA gov fucks citizens over and over again, and other countries, and everyone, and still so many people say omg I <3 USA. What is up with that
4886 2010-12-20 20:35:29 <TD> thanks
4887 2010-12-20 20:35:31 <TD> bitcointools looks useful
4888 2010-12-20 20:35:36 <larsig> every respected currency has a country/union, where is "bitconia"?
4889 2010-12-20 20:35:38 <AAA_awright> #politico The peer-run troll-free politics channel on Freenode (yes that's a shameless plug)
4890 2010-12-20 20:35:39 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is part of the cure, imo
4891 2010-12-20 20:35:48 <xelister> larsig: sounds like interesting place to be in :)
4892 2010-12-20 20:35:52 <Diablo-D3> at least they cant magically steal our shit
4893 2010-12-20 20:36:07 <xelister> Diablo-D3: how do you belive ecurrency would notably fix major political problems??
4894 2010-12-20 20:36:11 <larsig> lets have a competition, the one with the most cash in 10 years is king
4895 2010-12-20 20:36:16 maximi891 has joined
4896 2010-12-20 20:36:19 <ArtForz> xelister: honestly, a large part of the rest of the world wonders the same thing
4897 2010-12-20 20:36:24 <nanotube> dwdollar: that's presumably what #bitcoin-discussion is for. :)
4898 2010-12-20 20:36:25 <Diablo-D3> xelister: if they cant spend our money out from under us using the Federal Reserve, what can they do?
4899 2010-12-20 20:36:30 mtgox has joined
4900 2010-12-20 20:36:44 maximi89 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
4901 2010-12-20 20:36:48 <xelister> ArtForz: yes, that is why in general being patriot just because "I was borned here" is usually fucking stupid
4902 2010-12-20 20:37:05 <Kiba> nationalism!
4903 2010-12-20 20:37:14 <xelister> obviously China, Russia, USA, and 3rd world are horrible countries. And yet many people there would be patriots.
4904 2010-12-20 20:37:42 <EvanR-work> its like playing team fortress classic, and switching to the winning team
4905 2010-12-20 20:37:46 <EvanR-work> ;)
4906 2010-12-20 20:37:46 <larsig> Kiba, bitcoiners are the supreme race
4907 2010-12-20 20:38:15 <xelister> I could understand, you found an uncorrupoted, well administrated country, with no thugs in gov, no abuse, freespeach/internet etc, allowed guns, drugs and all (ofcourse for people that use them in good ways, not to seriously harm others), free sex (no fucking sex laws idiocity)
4908 2010-12-20 20:38:19 <xelister> you move then
4909 2010-12-20 20:38:21 <xelister> there
4910 2010-12-20 20:38:30 <xelister> and THEN you are a patriot. Ok that makes sense.
4911 2010-12-20 20:38:31 <EvanR-work> that would be too easy, you dont like a challenge?
4912 2010-12-20 20:38:40 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4913 2010-12-20 20:38:42 <Kiba> larsig: supreme race made up mostly hackers of all nationality?
4914 2010-12-20 20:38:46 <xelister> so why other 1,000,000,000+ people that live in shit countires often have nationalism
4915 2010-12-20 20:38:53 <Kiba> that's a weird supreme race
4916 2010-12-20 20:38:53 <larsig> Kiba, yup. space-jews
4917 2010-12-20 20:39:22 <xelister> Diablo-D3: ok, that is good point
4918 2010-12-20 20:39:24 <xelister> I supose
4919 2010-12-20 20:40:06 <Kiba> news tend to report horrible things, and xelister looks in with American news source that report horrible thing
4920 2010-12-20 20:40:10 <xelister> Kiba: such race could have trouble populating this country
4921 2010-12-20 20:40:30 <Kiba> but let face it, pluarity of bitcoiners are American! :P
4922 2010-12-20 20:40:32 <EvanR-work> xelister hates freedom
4923 2010-12-20 20:40:44 <xelister> EvanR-work: nope, freedom is most important
4924 2010-12-20 20:40:48 <xelister> EvanR-work beats his wife
4925 2010-12-20 20:41:12 <EvanR-work> youre either with us, or against us
4926 2010-12-20 20:41:21 <xelister> EvanR-work: USA is anit-freedom
4927 2010-12-20 20:41:26 <ArtForz> or you dont give a fuck either way
4928 2010-12-20 20:41:36 <Diablo-D3> look at wwhat the US media is doing to Julian Assange
4929 2010-12-20 20:41:42 <Diablo-D3> the guy is a fucking hero
4930 2010-12-20 20:41:43 <lfm> i'm not with you nor against you
4931 2010-12-20 20:41:52 <EvanR-work> lfm: thats what you think
4932 2010-12-20 20:41:53 <xelister> EvanR-work: I hope this "youre either with us, or against us" was irony, if not, then you are fucking idiot
4933 2010-12-20 20:41:54 <Kiba> Diablo-D3: bad or good?
4934 2010-12-20 20:42:06 <EvanR-work> xelister: freedom isnt free
4935 2010-12-20 20:42:14 <Kiba> and didn't the media are essentially a bunch of cowards?
4936 2010-12-20 20:42:17 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: fox news basically claimed hes a terrorist and should be put to death
4937 2010-12-20 20:42:18 <xelister> it takes people to fight for freedom
4938 2010-12-20 20:42:21 sgornick has joined
4939 2010-12-20 20:42:22 <xelister> heroes like Assange
4940 2010-12-20 20:42:25 <Diablo-D3> cnn has been somewhat more fair
4941 2010-12-20 20:42:33 <EvanR-work> npr has done a good job brtw
4942 2010-12-20 20:42:34 <EvanR-work> btw
4943 2010-12-20 20:42:35 <Kiba> xelister: do you have balls to do what Assange did?
4944 2010-12-20 20:42:41 <EvanR-work> they stopped calling it rape a few days later
4945 2010-12-20 20:42:42 <xelister> Kiba: probably not
4946 2010-12-20 20:43:09 <xelister> I can fuck a girl and take off the rubber though, but I dont think that is what you ment lol <_<
4947 2010-12-20 20:43:16 <lfm> those attatudes without compromize just start wars
4948 2010-12-20 20:43:22 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: The reporters (which would be "Fox news" as a collective) never said any such thing, nor have I heard of any of the commentators say anything like that
4949 2010-12-20 20:43:43 <xelister> AAA_awright: said what "such thing"?
4950 2010-12-20 20:43:48 <EvanR-work> at least one guy said obama should send a drone after him
4951 2010-12-20 20:43:51 maximi89 has joined
4952 2010-12-20 20:43:54 <EvanR-work> and assassinate him
4953 2010-12-20 20:44:02 <EvanR-work> he was on msnbc though
4954 2010-12-20 20:44:08 <Kiba> I am sure that would make USA real popular
4955 2010-12-20 20:44:17 <Kiba> assassinating him is the worst thing the USA could do
4956 2010-12-20 20:44:18 <xelister> lets assangage Julian Assasinge
4957 2010-12-20 20:44:23 <AAA_awright> Glenn has explicitly defended Assange, even saying Sarah Palin was wrong (though he still think's he's a dirtbag I mean, who else uses fame to score women like that)
4958 2010-12-20 20:44:38 <EvanR-work> every rock star on the planet
4959 2010-12-20 20:44:45 <Diablo-D3> hahahahaha
4960 2010-12-20 20:44:47 <Diablo-D3> WHAHAHAHAH
4961 2010-12-20 20:44:48 <Diablo-D3> WHAHADSETJAETS:KJSAETARAs
4962 2010-12-20 20:44:52 <Diablo-D3> oh shit I lol'd all over the place
4963 2010-12-20 20:44:58 maximi891 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4964 2010-12-20 20:45:00 <xelister> I thought it was your cat again
4965 2010-12-20 20:45:05 <Diablo-D3> glenn beck saying sarah palin is anything other than the sex changed second coming of jesus
4966 2010-12-20 20:45:06 <ArtForz> I loled too
4967 2010-12-20 20:45:10 <lfm> I like that poster from UK I saw on boing-boing "USA claim wikileaks has WMDs"
4968 2010-12-20 20:45:13 <Diablo-D3> oh wow
4969 2010-12-20 20:45:23 <AAA_awright> I don't follow
4970 2010-12-20 20:45:23 <xelister> lfm: url?
4971 2010-12-20 20:45:59 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: Alright, just in case you didn't get it by now, Media Matters is NOT an inbiased source on the activities of Fox News Channel
4972 2010-12-20 20:46:19 RichardG has joined
4973 2010-12-20 20:46:20 <lfm> http://www.boingboing.net/2010/12/19/evening-standrd-anon.html
4974 2010-12-20 20:46:28 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4975 2010-12-20 20:46:28 <AAA_awright> *unbiased
4976 2010-12-20 20:46:32 <ArtForz> newsflash: there is no such thing as an unbiased source
4977 2010-12-20 20:46:35 tylergillies has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4978 2010-12-20 20:46:53 <AAA_awright> Well then why does the term exist, ArtForz?
4979 2010-12-20 20:46:59 <Kiba> Wikipedia!
4980 2010-12-20 20:47:00 <AAA_awright> Of course I'm speaking relatively
4981 2010-12-20 20:47:31 <xelister> Julian Assasinge, his name is funny given current events
4982 2010-12-20 20:47:34 <ArtForz> it's a theoretical construct
4983 2010-12-20 20:47:38 <EvanR-work> i recommend watching fox news
4984 2010-12-20 20:47:45 <EvanR-work> just so you dont fall into a trap
4985 2010-12-20 20:48:02 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: OH YES, THOSE LIBERALS ARE SO EVIl
4986 2010-12-20 20:48:20 <AAA_awright> Erm, progressives?
4987 2010-12-20 20:48:49 <AAA_awright> You can use liberal to mean classical liberal it's alright
4988 2010-12-20 20:48:58 <Diablo-D3> not that I'm defending media matters here, but lets face it
4989 2010-12-20 20:49:07 <Diablo-D3> they arent the bad guy
4990 2010-12-20 20:49:23 <Diablo-D3> I mean, they broke the news about nigger hater dr laura
4991 2010-12-20 20:49:53 brentl has joined
4992 2010-12-20 20:50:01 <Diablo-D3> and they broke the news about bill o'reily's racist shit a few years back
4993 2010-12-20 20:50:07 <AAA_awright> I read them at least every week just for the lolz... You can't possibly say it's any good can you?
4994 2010-12-20 20:50:18 <Diablo-D3> I rate them higher than glenn beck
4995 2010-12-20 20:50:40 <AAA_awright> That, above any other blog or anything, has to be the worst echochamber of all time
4996 2010-12-20 20:50:55 <Diablo-D3> not high enough to take them straight seriously, but at least they try to hide their pro-American bias.
4997 2010-12-20 20:50:55 <AAA_awright> And it's not like they are even stupid like YouTube commenters
4998 2010-12-20 20:51:01 <lfm> daily show rulez
4999 2010-12-20 20:51:18 <Diablo-D3> ZOMG DONT SAY DAILY SHOW
5000 2010-12-20 20:51:24 <Diablo-D3> AAA AWRIGHT MIGHT HAVE A FIT
5001 2010-12-20 20:51:33 <AAA_awright> Wuh?
5002 2010-12-20 20:51:38 <lfm> oh ok colbert rulez
5003 2010-12-20 20:51:45 <AAA_awright> Jon is pretty good, I like him
5004 2010-12-20 20:51:46 <Diablo-D3> <AAA_AWRIGHT> THE DAILY SHOW, ITS REALLY A COVER UP FOR THE MOON LANDING!
5005 2010-12-20 20:52:20 <AAA_awright> Colbert is better for the comedy but... hmm, Jon is more open about his politics and actually pretty reasonable
5006 2010-12-20 20:52:51 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
5007 2010-12-20 20:52:57 <lfm> i like it when colbert cant keep a straight face when he gets carried away
5008 2010-12-20 20:53:07 <EvanR-work> i hate comedy central
5009 2010-12-20 20:53:14 <EvanR-work> and FX
5010 2010-12-20 20:53:34 <AAA_awright> You can stop it with the teasing, Diablo-D3, it's not changing anyone's minds :p
5011 2010-12-20 20:53:35 <lfm> EvanR-work: you dont like laughing? you're sick
5012 2010-12-20 20:53:49 <EvanR-work> its not funny
5013 2010-12-20 20:53:58 <EvanR-work> its stupid
5014 2010-12-20 20:54:01 <lfm> yup, you're sick
5015 2010-12-20 20:54:14 <lfm> take your pills
5016 2010-12-20 20:54:19 <EvanR-work> real reports of real politics are funner
5017 2010-12-20 20:54:21 <EvanR-work> funnier
5018 2010-12-20 20:55:10 <xelister> speaking of funny Americans,
5019 2010-12-20 20:55:17 <xelister> so how is that war against TSA abusers going on?
5020 2010-12-20 20:55:19 <EvanR-work> when was the last time a show was funny on there? i mean, have they gotten over mexicans yet, and extracting a laugh track with a well placed 'fuck you' yet
5021 2010-12-20 20:57:10 MacRohard has joined
5022 2010-12-20 20:57:39 <xelister> or are uneducated pigs from TSA still able to either grope or watch your girlfriends naked
5023 2010-12-20 20:58:04 * xelister watches demcoracy at works in the Free Country of USA, homeland of Liberty
5024 2010-12-20 20:58:42 <lfm> xelister: I think they're still doing it. next they're gonna require everyone take enima to flush out what you might hide up there
5025 2010-12-20 20:58:49 tylergillies has joined
5026 2010-12-20 20:58:49 tylergillies has quit (Changing host)
5027 2010-12-20 20:58:49 tylergillies has joined
5028 2010-12-20 20:58:56 <xelister> lfm: so, democracy fail?
5029 2010-12-20 20:59:05 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: btw, init says hi
5030 2010-12-20 20:59:12 <xelister> can I take a moment at leught at the poor slave country that still thinks they have liberty?
5031 2010-12-20 20:59:33 <lfm> xelister: I dunno, I dont think they vote at the airport, it is dictatorship there
5032 2010-12-20 20:59:53 <EvanR-work> xelister: yes
5033 2010-12-20 20:59:55 <EvanR-work> tey do
5034 2010-12-20 20:59:57 <EvanR-work> get over it
5035 2010-12-20 21:00:12 <xelister> EvanR-work: I am over it. The americans are being fucked over, not me
5036 2010-12-20 21:00:19 <EvanR-work> and we like it
5037 2010-12-20 21:00:22 <lfm> EvanR-work: <- likes enimas
5038 2010-12-20 21:00:22 <EvanR-work> end of
5039 2010-12-20 21:00:24 <xelister> it would appear so
5040 2010-12-20 21:00:35 <xelister> eewwww
5041 2010-12-20 21:00:37 <EvanR-work> as long as terrorist women get groped too
5042 2010-12-20 21:00:40 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: !?
5043 2010-12-20 21:00:42 <EvanR-work> thats the real issue
5044 2010-12-20 21:01:01 <EvanR-work> now grow up
5045 2010-12-20 21:01:04 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5046 2010-12-20 21:01:20 vress has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
5047 2010-12-20 21:01:29 AAA_awright has joined
5048 2010-12-20 21:01:45 <lfm> EvanR-work: the groping doesnt even prevent them carrying explosives or weapons
5049 2010-12-20 21:01:46 <xelister> I would say EvanR-work is joking
5050 2010-12-20 21:01:59 <xelister> but Ive seen fair amount of actuall idiots, so Im uncertain
5051 2010-12-20 21:02:09 <ArtForz> or just trolling
5052 2010-12-20 21:02:33 <xelister> they see EvanR trollin', they hatein'
5053 2010-12-20 21:03:39 <AAA_awright> Diablo-D3: init!?
5054 2010-12-20 21:04:21 <lfm> the underwaer bomber didnt even have to go thru security. they let him go in a side door
5055 2010-12-20 21:04:58 <Diablo-D3> AAA_awright: yes.
5056 2010-12-20 21:05:14 <EvanR-work> underwear bomber. now hes really going to want to commit suicide on something to avoid the lasting effect of that nickname
5057 2010-12-20 21:05:16 <xelister> underwear bomber?  Reminds me of childrengarden, we had one reall underwear bomber there
5058 2010-12-20 21:05:26 <Diablo-D3> xelister: kindergarden
5059 2010-12-20 21:05:35 <xelister> whatthefuckeevergarden
5060 2010-12-20 21:05:43 <EvanR-work> kindergarten
5061 2010-12-20 21:05:52 <xelister> heh
5062 2010-12-20 21:05:53 <EvanR-work> learn to speak american
5063 2010-12-20 21:06:07 <Diablo-D3> *german
5064 2010-12-20 21:06:09 <ArtForz> german
5065 2010-12-20 21:06:13 <ArtForz> :P
5066 2010-12-20 21:06:18 <EvanR-work> lol
5067 2010-12-20 21:06:36 <lfm> playschool
5068 2010-12-20 21:06:43 <xelister> GERMAN MOTHERFUCKER! Do you sprehen it?
5069 2010-12-20 21:06:44 <EvanR-work> playskool
5070 2010-12-20 21:06:50 <Diablo-D3> xelister++
5071 2010-12-20 21:07:04 <Diablo-D3> hrm, now I want to see that in different languages
5072 2010-12-20 21:07:19 <xelister> POLSKI MOTHERFUCKER! Do you kurwa it?
5073 2010-12-20 21:07:23 <lfm> materfuker
5074 2010-12-20 21:07:23 * ArtForz quotes blinkenlights
5075 2010-12-20 21:07:55 <xelister> how many lights?
5076 2010-12-20 21:08:28 <xelister> First one to tell me correctly how many lights are there gets 0.1 BTC
5077 2010-12-20 21:08:37 <Diablo-D3> 42.
5078 2010-12-20 21:08:38 <EvanR-work> there are four lights
5079 2010-12-20 21:08:44 <xelister> EvanR-work: say it correctly
5080 2010-12-20 21:08:52 <Diablo-D3> fucking picard
5081 2010-12-20 21:08:53 <EvanR-work> ._.
5082 2010-12-20 21:08:59 <xelister> THERE ARE FOOUURRRRR LIGHTS
5083 2010-12-20 21:09:11 <xelister> although ;)  EvanR-work address
5084 2010-12-20 21:09:20 <EvanR-work> 1ENhrNko47J8gYp5EF7iu1PdR51W9RRhPp
5085 2010-12-20 21:09:50 <EvanR-work> did you send it yet
5086 2010-12-20 21:09:58 <lfm> some of the old machines had hundreds of em
5087 2010-12-20 21:10:11 <xelister> Diablo-D3: well or winston
5088 2010-12-20 21:10:34 <Diablo-D3> xelister: yeah, that wasnt even subtle
5089 2010-12-20 21:10:38 <Diablo-D3> 2+2 = 5
5090 2010-12-20 21:10:41 <Diablo-D3> 4 lights, 5 lights
5091 2010-12-20 21:10:41 <ArtForz> probably some had OVER 9000
5092 2010-12-20 21:10:50 <xelister> ArtForz: like your cluster ;)
5093 2010-12-20 21:11:00 <EvanR-work> that was probably one of the worst episodes of TNG not in season 1 or 2
5094 2010-12-20 21:11:21 <EvanR-work> it was a pointless attempt at ratings, no substance
5095 2010-12-20 21:11:21 <Diablo-D3> well, it was too heavy handed
5096 2010-12-20 21:11:25 <ArtForz> N lights
5097 2010-12-20 21:11:46 <xelister> the specialops idea was cool though
5098 2010-12-20 21:11:47 tylergillies has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
5099 2010-12-20 21:11:58 <EvanR-work> and also unbelievable
5100 2010-12-20 21:12:01 <xelister> Sure lets do it, what can possibly go wrong!
5101 2010-12-20 21:12:05 <xelister> oh. ohhh.
5102 2010-12-20 21:12:12 <EvanR-work> ok guys send three top crew members including picard himself on a mission they will probably not return from
5103 2010-12-20 21:12:35 <EvanR-work> they tried to explain it away at the beginning but no
5104 2010-12-20 21:12:59 <xelister> EvanR-work: rememver to rate me on freecoin-otc (once I get clock) and 1 other rating system of my choice later ;)
5105 2010-12-20 21:13:07 <xelister> erm. bitcoin. wtf ;)
5106 2010-12-20 21:13:10 <ArtForz> probably the writers went "awww, fuck it"
5107 2010-12-20 21:13:13 <Diablo-D3> you really cant beat warp factor fuck you
5108 2010-12-20 21:13:28 <xelister> btw right, why did picard go
5109 2010-12-20 21:13:40 <xelister> he was expert on..?
5110 2010-12-20 21:13:58 <EvanR-work> because he was the only guy with experience in thaeleron radiation or something in existence
5111 2010-12-20 21:13:59 <xelister> but nothing is as bad as the movies
5112 2010-12-20 21:14:35 <xelister> EvanR-work: well, then I guess it could actually make sense. Instead send people that have no idea what actually they are looking for - then they could just bomb it all from orbit
5113 2010-12-20 21:14:49 <ArtForz> it's the only way to be sure
5114 2010-12-20 21:14:58 <EvanR-work> a direct attack against cardassians would obviously be against the rules
5115 2010-12-20 21:15:06 <xelister> it was their planet?
5116 2010-12-20 21:15:09 <EvanR-work> yes
5117 2010-12-20 21:15:12 <xelister> man I need to rewatch some shit.
5118 2010-12-20 21:15:19 <xelister> well
5119 2010-12-20 21:15:25 <EvanR-work> it was a mission never to have official occured
5120 2010-12-20 21:15:25 <xelister> they just needed like spacebush
5121 2010-12-20 21:15:28 <EvanR-work> ly
5122 2010-12-20 21:15:33 <lfm> just like a western, the bad guys have to shoot first
5123 2010-12-20 21:15:44 <xelister> They have WoMDs. And hussain. Lets bomb it
5124 2010-12-20 21:15:51 <EvanR-work> the picard replacement for that episode was supposed to be like bush
5125 2010-12-20 21:16:03 <EvanR-work> or reagan
5126 2010-12-20 21:16:10 <xelister> btw
5127 2010-12-20 21:16:21 <xelister> I have totally awesome funny shit about startrek (and few other topics)
5128 2010-12-20 21:16:47 <xelister> its a video (also on fagtube) that is funny as shit, if you are judging movies about their substance and shit
5129 2010-12-20 21:16:59 <xelister> pay me 0.1 btc if you like the links I paste ok?
5130 2010-12-20 21:17:17 <EvanR-work> this is like ferengi from deep space nine
5131 2010-12-20 21:17:18 <lfm> hollywood logic and science
5132 2010-12-20 21:17:22 <xelister> also anyway I payed like 3 people today fon various fun stuff ;)
5133 2010-12-20 21:17:49 <EvanR-work> pay three strips to walk in the door, two strips to sit down. three for bad advice, seven for good advice
5134 2010-12-20 21:18:12 <xelister> random part of review --> http://www.youtube.com/user/RedLetterMedia#p/u/10/o-isAmaVbsM
5135 2010-12-20 21:18:18 brentl has quit (Quit: Leaving)
5136 2010-12-20 21:19:28 tylergillies has joined
5137 2010-12-20 21:19:28 tylergillies has quit (Changing host)
5138 2010-12-20 21:19:28 tylergillies has joined
5139 2010-12-20 21:19:50 ddhuyvet has joined
5140 2010-12-20 21:21:00 <xelister> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbQ4keKFZIY
5141 2010-12-20 21:21:02 <xelister> this is really funny shit
5142 2010-12-20 21:21:17 <xelister> that guy reviews few ST TNG movies, and the new (shitty) star wars
5143 2010-12-20 21:21:30 <EvanR-work> i dont like most of the tng movies
5144 2010-12-20 21:21:42 <xelister> so you will love the reviews ;)
5145 2010-12-20 21:21:48 <xelister>  /this/ reivews
5146 2010-12-20 21:21:51 <EvanR-work> nemesis was the worst
5147 2010-12-20 21:22:12 <EvanR-work> the director never actually had seen star trek before
5148 2010-12-20 21:22:22 <EvanR-work> he thought levar burtons character was an alien
5149 2010-12-20 21:23:00 <xelister> EvanR-work: Nemesis?  -- see --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZjkHUrEuHc
5150 2010-12-20 21:23:14 <EvanR-work> i dont have audio cap
5151 2010-12-20 21:23:49 <xelister> if you find this shit funny, send what you like to   1EzjdxUCSj8iVradK4gAs4T6xR16uj3TxJ  best like 1 or 0.1 BTC :)
5152 2010-12-20 21:26:14 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
5153 2010-12-20 21:28:56 <lfm> better to send money to the guy who actually made it than you
5154 2010-12-20 21:31:32 <xelister> probably better, you can buy his dvds from afair 20 usd
5155 2010-12-20 21:31:39 <xelister> doesnt accept bitcoins
5156 2010-12-20 21:31:47 xelister is now known as xelister_
5157 2010-12-20 21:31:47 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
5158 2010-12-20 21:31:56 <xelister_> hm
5159 2010-12-20 21:32:04 <xelister_> [22:27] <lfm> better to send money to the guy who actually made it than you
5160 2010-12-20 21:32:06 <xelister_> [22:29] <xelister> probably better, you can buy his dvds from afair 20 usd
5161 2010-12-20 21:32:07 <EvanR-work> get him to accept bitcoins
5162 2010-12-20 21:32:07 <xelister_> [22:29] <xelister> doesnt accept bitcoins
5163 2010-12-20 21:32:55 noagendamarket has joined
5164 2010-12-20 21:33:06 <AAA_awright> Why don't we just all bash it because warp-speed is impossible now, huh?
5165 2010-12-20 21:33:48 <EvanR-work> ##physics ;)
5166 2010-12-20 21:35:51 <xelister_> AAA_awright: problems with phisics are not important... problem is elsewehere with the movies
5167 2010-12-20 21:35:59 <xelister_> tons of GFX, shit script
5168 2010-12-20 21:37:59 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
5169 2010-12-20 21:42:52 albatross has quit (Quit: Page closed)
5170 2010-12-20 21:44:52 omglolbbq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
5171 2010-12-20 21:46:04 omglolbbq has joined
5172 2010-12-20 21:46:56 ddhuyvet has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
5173 2010-12-20 21:48:52 StrangeCharm has joined
5174 2010-12-20 21:55:36 Toadyonps3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
5175 2010-12-20 21:57:37 mtgox has joined
5176 2010-12-20 21:57:40 <xelister_> [2010-12-20_19:27:59] [score][good] 1-Cypress-core2: found a valid-looking solution: nonce=337968982 G=100450 H=0
5177 2010-12-20 21:57:51 <xelister_> in your face <_<  >_>  \o/  -o-  /o\
5178 2010-12-20 21:57:59 <xelister_> I bet ArtForz does that a lot
5179 2010-12-20 21:58:09 <Diablo-D3> yes, several times an hour.
5180 2010-12-20 21:58:10 <xelister_> it's a friend's computer miner sending to me
5181 2010-12-20 21:59:12 <Sirius_> MT`AwAy: how do you start a new language version of a mediawiki page
5182 2010-12-20 21:59:16 <EvanR-work> im sure hes compensating you for this
5183 2010-12-20 21:59:35 <MT`AwAy> Sirius_: the goal here is to have one mediawiki database per language
5184 2010-12-20 21:59:37 <EvanR-work> or are you charging him for your victory dances
5185 2010-12-20 22:00:09 <MT`AwAy> Sirius_: still if you want to maintain translations of the site through mediawiki, you may want to use a different approach (and add /xx to the page name)
5186 2010-12-20 22:01:00 <MT`AwAy> Sirius_: however I'll start maintenance to replace the hard disk of the server where the wiki is, it might be a good idea to report edits a bit (hard disk has started failing, so we replace it before it goes down)
5187 2010-12-20 22:04:40 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
5188 2010-12-20 22:04:59 jyaworski has joined
5189 2010-12-20 22:05:19 <Sirius_> ok
5190 2010-12-20 22:06:42 Granttt has joined
5191 2010-12-20 22:07:04 <MT`AwAy> Sirius_: you still have 30 minutes before I stop the webserver/sql/etc
5192 2010-12-20 22:07:10 <MT`AwAy> I'll stop everything to have a clean disk state
5193 2010-12-20 22:07:24 <MT`AwAy> then the disk will be replaced, and I'll just restore the files and the server will be back up instantly :D
5194 2010-12-20 22:08:48 ColonelPanic1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
5195 2010-12-20 22:10:16 <EvanR-work> are you sure you dont want to swap disks online? xD
5196 2010-12-20 22:10:17 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
5197 2010-12-20 22:10:40 <MT`AwAy> EvanR-work: can't, no raid on that system
5198 2010-12-20 22:10:53 <Diablo-D3> wee
5199 2010-12-20 22:11:02 <MT`AwAy> if I had a raid I could just disable one disk, have the ppl use sata hotplug to change it, rebuild the raid, then have them change the other disk
5200 2010-12-20 22:11:03 <Diablo-D3> I think I finished adding support for that extra thread to do network activity
5201 2010-12-20 22:11:46 Toadyonps3 has joined
5202 2010-12-20 22:15:36 <EvanR-work> MT`AwAy: what is your 'eviction' policy
5203 2010-12-20 22:15:45 <EvanR-work> just delete the customers stuff?
5204 2010-12-20 22:15:45 <MT`AwAy> EvanR-work: ?
5205 2010-12-20 22:16:01 <MT`AwAy> you mean, for expired stuff?
5206 2010-12-20 22:16:11 <EvanR-work> the customer does not pay next months rent
5207 2010-12-20 22:16:15 <MT`AwAy> ah
5208 2010-12-20 22:16:18 <MT`AwAy> depends on what he had
5209 2010-12-20 22:16:42 <MT`AwAy> for example for dedicated servers, after 7 days the hard disk is physically destroyed using a PCI-DSS compliant process
5210 2010-12-20 22:16:59 <EvanR-work> oh really :S
5211 2010-12-20 22:17:25 <MT`AwAy> all the servers hard disks are new
5212 2010-12-20 22:17:43 <EvanR-work> be anyway, the stuff is deleted ?
5213 2010-12-20 22:17:46 <EvanR-work> or lost
5214 2010-12-20 22:18:06 <MT`AwAy> for web hosting, the backups last for 2~6 months
5215 2010-12-20 22:18:15 <EvanR-work> ah
5216 2010-12-20 22:18:19 <EvanR-work> and vps?
5217 2010-12-20 22:18:27 <MT`AwAy> for VPS, the data is erased instantly if it's via our german provider :p
5218 2010-12-20 22:18:37 <EvanR-work> figures
5219 2010-12-20 22:18:38 <MT`AwAy> (and after 15 days via our own system)
5220 2010-12-20 22:18:42 <EvanR-work> lol
5221 2010-12-20 22:19:00 <MT`AwAy> but anyway digging backups is a pain, so we usually say that the data is lost
5222 2010-12-20 22:19:11 <MT`AwAy> except for web hosting (if you pay after expiration you get your data back)
5223 2010-12-20 22:19:15 <MT`AwAy> (up to one month after)
5224 2010-12-20 22:19:29 <Kiba> hey folks
5225 2010-12-20 22:19:32 <MT`AwAy> (except for the free 7 days hosting, which is deleted 7 days after its expiration)
5226 2010-12-20 22:20:04 <EvanR-work> ok
5227 2010-12-20 22:20:34 <MT`AwAy> it's kind of complex :p
5228 2010-12-20 22:21:48 <Kiba> http://amkon.net/bitcoin-internet-currency-t30928.html
5229 2010-12-20 22:21:58 <Kiba> apperantly we're a conspiracy now
5230 2010-12-20 22:22:55 <Diablo-D3> took us long enough
5231 2010-12-20 22:23:01 <ArtForz> we aren't?
5232 2010-12-20 22:23:10 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: soon we'll be evil irakian terrorists
5233 2010-12-20 22:23:30 <Diablo-D3> irakian
5234 2010-12-20 22:23:30 <Diablo-D3> lol
5235 2010-12-20 22:23:41 <Diablo-D3> lets just go the full 9 yards here
5236 2010-12-20 22:23:44 <Diablo-D3> irakkkian
5237 2010-12-20 22:23:58 <ArtForz> dude, irak is so '00s, we're north korean terrorists now.
5238 2010-12-20 22:24:08 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so, the 60s?
5239 2010-12-20 22:24:20 <ArtForz> ever heard of retro?
5240 2010-12-20 22:24:26 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I found a hilarious bug in my miner
5241 2010-12-20 22:24:33 <Diablo-D3> "Found block 1" "Found block 4"
5242 2010-12-20 22:24:44 <Diablo-D3> lets put the increment in the right place >_>
5243 2010-12-20 22:25:12 <LobsterMan> http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-12/total-lunar-eclipse-visible-north-america-tonight
5244 2010-12-20 22:25:13 RichardG has joined
5245 2010-12-20 22:26:17 <ArtForz> so 1+1 != 4?
5246 2010-12-20 22:27:30 <BoBeR> 1=2
5247 2010-12-20 22:27:38 <BoBeR> 0/0 = 1
5248 2010-12-20 22:27:47 <BoBeR> u mad mathfags
5249 2010-12-20 22:28:21 <EvanR-work> war is peace
5250 2010-12-20 22:28:28 <EvanR-work> freedom is slavery
5251 2010-12-20 22:28:43 <BoBeR> god is real
5252 2010-12-20 22:28:52 <BoBeR> oh i thought we where saying lies
5253 2010-12-20 22:28:54 <BoBeR> my bad
5254 2010-12-20 22:29:00 <EvanR-work> ignorance is strength
5255 2010-12-20 22:29:17 <Kiba> most people in the world probably never read that novel
5256 2010-12-20 22:29:17 <RichardG> okay nano, I unplugged that bad fan until I replace it
5257 2010-12-20 22:29:34 <RichardG> old motherboard, no fan connectors - it was hardwired to one of the power connectors used for the optical drive
5258 2010-12-20 22:29:39 <ArtForz> bad fan! bad bad fan! sit fan!
5259 2010-12-20 22:29:41 <RichardG> (which isn't working anyways)
5260 2010-12-20 22:31:04 <EvanR-work> Kiba: ironic!
5261 2010-12-20 22:31:05 <EvanR-work> lol
5262 2010-12-20 22:31:08 <ArtForz> btw, I have one box here that just flat out refuses to die
5263 2010-12-20 22:34:23 <ArtForz> K6 233 AT desktop, used to be my mailserver about 12 years ago
5264 2010-12-20 22:35:10 <ArtForz> last fan in that box died about 5 years ago
5265 2010-12-20 22:36:13 <ArtForz> and about 3 years ago the HD went out
5266 2010-12-20 22:36:48 <ArtForz> still responding to pings
5267 2010-12-20 22:38:33 AAA_awright_ has joined
5268 2010-12-20 22:38:33 AAA_awright_ has quit (Client Quit)
5269 2010-12-20 22:39:02 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
5270 2010-12-20 22:39:03 AAA_awright_ has joined
5271 2010-12-20 22:39:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98612 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 171 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 0 hours, 29 minutes, and 11 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14260.24888770
5272 2010-12-20 22:39:16 <MT`AwAy> ok
5273 2010-12-20 22:39:18 <MT`AwAy> wiki is going down
5274 2010-12-20 22:39:19 vress has joined
5275 2010-12-20 22:39:23 <MT`AwAy> for hard disk maintenance
5276 2010-12-20 22:39:47 AAA_awright has quit (Disconnected by services)
5277 2010-12-20 22:39:58 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
5278 2010-12-20 22:40:53 <xelister_> HD
5279 2010-12-20 22:40:55 <xelister_> HD cards!
5280 2010-12-20 22:41:04 <xelister_> yes mofos I have the HD resolution!!
5281 2010-12-20 22:41:17 <xelister_> (almost as good as my CRT monitor had 5 years ago!!!! wooooo)
5282 2010-12-20 22:41:35 <xelister_> that reminds me. I seen a 50" tv plasma or something.
5283 2010-12-20 22:41:36 <xelister_> 50"
5284 2010-12-20 22:41:42 <ArtForz> 5 years? there were fucking 2048x1536 CRTs a fucking decade ago
5285 2010-12-20 22:41:44 <xelister_> 1024x768 resolution :>
5286 2010-12-20 22:41:56 <xelister_> ArtForz: U was using 2000-something CRTs indeed
5287 2010-12-20 22:42:14 <xelister_> 50"  1024x768.  Hey look rednecks, how big IT is
5288 2010-12-20 22:42:30 <EvanR-work> yeah but you couldnt distinguish pixesl at 2048, it would be blury
5289 2010-12-20 22:42:58 <ArtForz> well, when the screens were still younger it actually wasnt too bad
5290 2010-12-20 22:43:48 <EvanR-work> then against consumers really like mpeg compression artifacts so what is the actual goal of tv technology
5291 2010-12-20 22:43:50 <ArtForz> CRTs are always more-or-less blurry, no 1:1 pixel:triplet mapping
5292 2010-12-20 22:44:27 StrangeCharm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
5293 2010-12-20 22:44:36 <EvanR-work> they also like bullshit. this plasma tv said on a tag '600Hz sub field drive'
5294 2010-12-20 22:45:09 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
5295 2010-12-20 22:45:15 <ArtForz> probably technically true
5296 2010-12-20 22:45:15 paul0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
5297 2010-12-20 22:45:37 <EvanR-work> all that really matters is they found a way to multiply the refresh rate measure by 10 for the purpose of tag
5298 2010-12-20 22:45:44 <ArtForz> yep
5299 2010-12-20 22:45:59 <EvanR-work> and contrast ratios are now in the googolplex range
5300 2010-12-20 22:46:06 <ArtForz> well, duh
5301 2010-12-20 22:46:23 <xelister_> 600 Mhz!!!
5302 2010-12-20 22:46:31 <xelister_> your home fly will see it as smooth motion
5303 2010-12-20 22:46:39 <EvanR-work> the tv is 10^10^99 times better than the other one
5304 2010-12-20 22:46:53 <ArtForz> infinite:1 contrast with a TN panel
5305 2010-12-20 22:47:01 <xelister_> (no matter they broadcast at ~50 or 100 Hz anyway)
5306 2010-12-20 22:47:20 <ArtForz> thanks to dynamic backlight control
5307 2010-12-20 22:47:29 <ArtForz> backlight off = 0 light, backlight on = infinite x 0 light
5308 2010-12-20 22:47:41 <EvanR-work> im not sure if yellow pixels actually make a difference
5309 2010-12-20 22:47:55 <EvanR-work> or its yet more bullshit
5310 2010-12-20 22:48:18 <ArtForz> imo bullshit
5311 2010-12-20 22:49:04 <EvanR-work> you know if you emit large amounts of ultraviolet radiation with the TV, it would look more realistic in bright scenes ;)
5312 2010-12-20 22:49:08 <ArtForz> if you want to really increase gamut, add fucking violet pixels
5313 2010-12-20 22:49:12 <EvanR-work> to make you squint
5314 2010-12-20 22:49:29 <EvanR-work> why didnt they think of that
5315 2010-12-20 22:49:44 <EvanR-work> 3d tv? now thats got to be shit
5316 2010-12-20 22:50:01 <AAA_awright> Ultraviolent and infradead colors
5317 2010-12-20 22:50:03 <ArtForz> haven't seen a 2D TV yet
5318 2010-12-20 22:50:17 <EvanR-work> just give me a friggin oled already and shut the hell up with this crap
5319 2010-12-20 22:50:20 <ArtForz> they all seem to have at least some depth
5320 2010-12-20 22:50:21 <AAA_awright> ArtForz: Actually measured with a light meter you are always going to get some light coming from pure black areas
5321 2010-12-20 22:50:28 <ArtForz> yep
5322 2010-12-20 22:50:31 <AAA_awright> ArtForz: What type of monitor?
5323 2010-12-20 22:50:39 <EvanR-work> haha, black body radiation
5324 2010-12-20 22:50:54 <AAA_awright> EvanR-work: I haven't seen a good stereoscopic monitor yet, that's not big and bulky
5325 2010-12-20 22:51:48 <ArtForz> any type
5326 2010-12-20 22:52:20 <AAA_awright> Man if audio followed the same marketing as video we would be hearing no end of 3D SOUND!!! from car stereos and oh the problems that would cause for surround sound
5327 2010-12-20 22:52:28 <AAA_awright> (marketing)
5328 2010-12-20 22:52:35 <ArtForz> errr... we already do
5329 2010-12-20 22:52:35 vress has quit ()
5330 2010-12-20 22:53:01 <EvanR-work> HD radio
5331 2010-12-20 22:53:05 <EvanR-work> HD sun glasses
5332 2010-12-20 22:53:08 <EvanR-work> HD house paint
5333 2010-12-20 22:53:37 <ArtForz> gold plated HDMI cables
5334 2010-12-20 22:54:02 <EvanR-work> someone tried to claim that gold is valuable because of 'applications' such as that
5335 2010-12-20 22:54:04 <AAA_awright> I mean the misnomier of "3D" for stereoscopic. Most all movies are 3D stupid.
5336 2010-12-20 22:55:08 * Diablo-D3 is on his email list
5337 2010-12-20 22:55:34 <ArtForz> and of course my personal favourite, gold plated toslink connectors
5338 2010-12-20 22:56:42 <ArtForz> a fiber optic cable, with gold fucking plated connectors
5339 2010-12-20 22:56:53 larsig has joined
5340 2010-12-20 22:57:21 <EvanR-work> transfer with bling
5341 2010-12-20 22:57:31 <ArtForz> the EE in me wants to kill the marketing fuckwit who came up with that
5342 2010-12-20 22:57:36 <EvanR-work> too bad you cant plate stuff with bitcoins
5343 2010-12-20 22:57:46 <ArtForz> the asshat in me wants to pat him on the back for increasing the stupid tax
5344 2010-12-20 22:58:07 <EvanR-work> increasing stupid tax ruins it for everyone
5345 2010-12-20 22:59:39 AAA_awright_ has joined
5346 2010-12-20 23:01:18 akem has joined
5347 2010-12-20 23:01:18 akem has quit (Changing host)
5348 2010-12-20 23:01:18 akem has joined
5349 2010-12-20 23:01:52 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
5350 2010-12-20 23:02:03 <Diablo-D3> --------------------------------------------------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.=***********//////////////////                            =     ////
5351 2010-12-20 23:02:26 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5352 2010-12-20 23:04:23 darrob has joined
5353 2010-12-20 23:05:52 <xelister_> oh Diablo-D3's cat
5354 2010-12-20 23:06:21 <ArtForz> as long as it's not his sed or grep
5355 2010-12-20 23:08:51 <Diablo-D3> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
5356 2010-12-20 23:08:51 <Diablo-D3> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
5357 2010-12-20 23:08:52 <Diablo-D3> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
5358 2010-12-20 23:08:57 <Diablo-D3> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
5359 2010-12-20 23:09:02 <Diablo-D3> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
5360 2010-12-20 23:09:12 maintstate has joined
5361 2010-12-20 23:09:14 lzd_hz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5362 2010-12-20 23:09:52 <ArtForz> jack the rippers uri?
5363 2010-12-20 23:11:38 <Diablo-D3> grrr
5364 2010-12-20 23:12:10 <Diablo-D3> goddamned cat
5365 2010-12-20 23:12:24 <EvanR-work> lol
5366 2010-12-20 23:12:26 <Diablo-D3> [05:51:44] <ArtForz> gold plated HDMI cables
5367 2010-12-20 23:12:29 <Diablo-D3> erm, arent most now?
5368 2010-12-20 23:12:45 <ArtForz> yes, and it's fucking stupid
5369 2010-12-20 23:13:01 <Diablo-D3> well, its not "stupid" in the sense you need them matched
5370 2010-12-20 23:13:22 <ArtForz> afair hdmi spec says nickel plated
5371 2010-12-20 23:13:33 <Diablo-D3> shit usually is nickel plated
5372 2010-12-20 23:13:48 <EvanR-work> nickel is not bling enough
5373 2010-12-20 23:13:52 <Diablo-D3> but a surprising amount is gold
5374 2010-12-20 23:14:01 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: its not even bling
5375 2010-12-20 23:14:12 <ArtForz> WHOA
5376 2010-12-20 23:14:27 <ArtForz> fucking crazy guy just blew by
5377 2010-12-20 23:14:30 <EvanR-work> the cables that are usually hidden behind 6 layers of entertainment center should show off my social status
5378 2010-12-20 23:14:33 <Diablo-D3> gold works great as a conductor
5379 2010-12-20 23:14:59 bitanarchy has joined
5380 2010-12-20 23:14:59 bitanarchy has quit (Changing host)
5381 2010-12-20 23:14:59 bitanarchy has joined
5382 2010-12-20 23:15:08 <xelister_> ArtForz: he exploded?
5383 2010-12-20 23:15:09 <Diablo-D3> and the metals they choose dont have any capacitance problems
5384 2010-12-20 23:15:21 <Diablo-D3> so you get whatever the minimum is
5385 2010-12-20 23:15:24 <xelister_> bbl
5386 2010-12-20 23:15:25 xelister_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5387 2010-12-20 23:15:37 <ArtForz> on a bike, doing at least 50mph, with about 2" snow on the road
5388 2010-12-20 23:15:39 <Diablo-D3> ergo, gold plugged into nickel gives you... nickel
5389 2010-12-20 23:15:44 <EvanR-work> the question is whether it has any effect on your digital signal
5390 2010-12-20 23:15:46 <Diablo-D3> as long as nothings aluminum you're fine
5391 2010-12-20 23:15:59 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: if you start using like 50 feet of HDMI cable, yes
5392 2010-12-20 23:16:10 <ArtForz> mating gold with nickel is usually a bad idea
5393 2010-12-20 23:16:11 <EvanR-work> that sounds pretty dumb
5394 2010-12-20 23:16:21 <Diablo-D3> but at that point you just get double sheilded shit
5395 2010-12-20 23:16:30 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it doesnt actually hurt anything
5396 2010-12-20 23:16:33 <Diablo-D3> you just get nothing out of it
5397 2010-12-20 23:16:58 <EvanR-work> its like monitors that operate at 240Hz and shit, who can tell?
5398 2010-12-20 23:16:58 taiki has joined
5399 2010-12-20 23:17:00 <ArtForz> afair it causes diffusion
5400 2010-12-20 23:17:03 Sherpa has joined
5401 2010-12-20 23:17:11 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: I can
5402 2010-12-20 23:17:15 <EvanR-work> 'me because im that good'
5403 2010-12-20 23:17:17 <EvanR-work> never fails!
5404 2010-12-20 23:17:22 <Diablo-D3> I have 24fps native material.
5405 2010-12-20 23:17:26 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/
5406 2010-12-20 23:17:34 <ArtForz> = gold migrates into the nickel, changes the lattice structure
5407 2010-12-20 23:17:36 <Diablo-D3> oh wait
5408 2010-12-20 23:17:40 <Diablo-D3> you said 240 not 24
5409 2010-12-20 23:17:41 <taiki> can someone explain how i can check a hash in python? like CheckWork?
5410 2010-12-20 23:17:43 <EvanR-work> yes
5411 2010-12-20 23:17:52 <Diablo-D3> that 240 shit doesnt do what you think it does
5412 2010-12-20 23:17:54 <EvanR-work> two hundred forty and zero / 100
5413 2010-12-20 23:18:03 <ArtForz> it caused craploads of problems with cheap SIMMs
5414 2010-12-20 23:18:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: except cheap simms use _tin_
5415 2010-12-20 23:18:18 <EvanR-work> 600Hz subfield drive
5416 2010-12-20 23:18:21 <Diablo-D3> tin should have NEVER been used
5417 2010-12-20 23:18:35 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: if you're on a sony or samsung, turn it off
5418 2010-12-20 23:18:43 <Diablo-D3> they interpolate the data wrong
5419 2010-12-20 23:19:05 <EvanR-work> i refute all TV technology from last year until 2016
5420 2010-12-20 23:19:05 <Diablo-D3> it looks like shit
5421 2010-12-20 23:19:09 <Diablo-D3> and its very noticable
5422 2010-12-20 23:19:14 <EvanR-work> its a shit fest
5423 2010-12-20 23:19:15 <Diablo-D3> toshiba's however looks fine
5424 2010-12-20 23:19:23 <Diablo-D3> it emulates the look of a plasma
5425 2010-12-20 23:19:36 <EvanR-work> right, as i was saying, people like a picture that looks bad
5426 2010-12-20 23:19:39 <Diablo-D3> and it also has a low motion threshold, so it often wont trigger at all
5427 2010-12-20 23:19:54 <EvanR-work> mpeg, plasma, colorization, over saturation
5428 2010-12-20 23:20:02 <Diablo-D3> plasma looks bad now?
5429 2010-12-20 23:20:22 <EvanR-work> ._.
5430 2010-12-20 23:20:27 <Diablo-D3> all it does is, using physics itself, guassian interpolate in three dimensions
5431 2010-12-20 23:20:49 <EvanR-work> give me a pixel array
5432 2010-12-20 23:20:53 <EvanR-work> thats all i ask
5433 2010-12-20 23:21:02 <EvanR-work> then give me a decent video stream
5434 2010-12-20 23:21:07 <ArtForz> I'd like a LARGE pixel array
5435 2010-12-20 23:21:10 <EvanR-work> TV stores do not have this technology yet
5436 2010-12-20 23:21:22 <Diablo-D3> well, at 1080p on 65 inches or less, you cant see the pixels
5437 2010-12-20 23:21:26 <EvanR-work> but they will make you want the alternatives!
5438 2010-12-20 23:21:38 <ArtForz> depends on viewing distance
5439 2010-12-20 23:21:44 <Diablo-D3> the real problem is the chroma
5440 2010-12-20 23:21:49 <Diablo-D3> but thats a different discussion
5441 2010-12-20 23:21:52 <EvanR-work> great! but i would also not like to see anything ELSe besides the damned picture
5442 2010-12-20 23:22:00 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: Im assuming THX viewing distance
5443 2010-12-20 23:22:12 <ArtForz> yep, then it's correct
5444 2010-12-20 23:22:21 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: I agree with over saturation though
5445 2010-12-20 23:22:52 <Diablo-D3> I have a color calibration kit for my computer... works great for TVs too if you want to manually fuck with shit
5446 2010-12-20 23:22:56 <EvanR-work> they try to sell TV by showing movies with 99% compression
5447 2010-12-20 23:23:07 <Diablo-D3> percentage of compression is meaningless
5448 2010-12-20 23:23:13 <Diablo-D3> blurays really are nearly lossless
5449 2010-12-20 23:23:46 <ArtForz> yep, seems crazy oversaturated is now default
5450 2010-12-20 23:23:47 <Diablo-D3> hollywood encodes, due to the fast bitrate overkill have very favorable psnrs
5451 2010-12-20 23:24:05 <ArtForz> flat 00ff00 grass
5452 2010-12-20 23:24:17 <Diablo-D3> the problem is, the chroma
5453 2010-12-20 23:24:22 <EvanR-work> great, show a blueray to sell the thing
5454 2010-12-20 23:24:27 <Diablo-D3> I don't particularly agree with 4:2:0
5455 2010-12-20 23:24:31 <EvanR-work> instead they show a youtube video
5456 2010-12-20 23:24:39 <Diablo-D3> its 9000% less shit than 4:2:0 on 480p
5457 2010-12-20 23:24:50 <Diablo-D3> but bleh
5458 2010-12-20 23:24:52 <ArtForz> and dont get me started on default brightness level of "ahh, my eyes"
5459 2010-12-20 23:24:57 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ye gods
5460 2010-12-20 23:25:08 <Diablo-D3> mine is down like 25% of max brightness
5461 2010-12-20 23:25:16 <Diablo-D3> the optimal setting is you can barely tell its not white
5462 2010-12-20 23:25:25 <Diablo-D3> which is around 120 nits or so
5463 2010-12-20 23:25:31 <Diablo-D3> depends on the viewer
5464 2010-12-20 23:25:44 <Diablo-D3> and I dont believe in that nutjob digital cinema shit at 40 nits
5465 2010-12-20 23:25:52 <Diablo-D3> where you view it in a 100% darkened room
5466 2010-12-20 23:26:09 <Diablo-D3> that if you turned the display off, you'd be suffering from partial sensory deprivation
5467 2010-12-20 23:26:16 <ArtForz> lol
5468 2010-12-20 23:26:35 <Diablo-D3> I live in reality, the reflections of light off shit in my house is brighter than 40 nits.
5469 2010-12-20 23:26:59 <Diablo-D3> entertainment center, tables, the rug, etc
5470 2010-12-20 23:27:04 <ArtForz> yep, only useful for darkened HT rooms
5471 2010-12-20 23:27:18 <ArtForz> and then you might as well go front projection
5472 2010-12-20 23:27:21 <Diablo-D3> 120 is "full bright" for lights off rooms, effectively
5473 2010-12-20 23:27:24 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ugh
5474 2010-12-20 23:27:27 <Diablo-D3> projection is shit
5475 2010-12-20 23:27:44 <Diablo-D3> even with extremely high output projectors on those "black" screens that have the rgb dots
5476 2010-12-20 23:27:47 <Kiba> yay!
5477 2010-12-20 23:27:50 <Diablo-D3> contrast is superfucked
5478 2010-12-20 23:27:50 <ArtForz> it's fun
5479 2010-12-20 23:27:52 <Kiba> I finally reached level 1 :D
5480 2010-12-20 23:28:12 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/ Register Now! :)
5481 2010-12-20 23:28:27 <ArtForz> that sounds like a case of cheap LCD projector
5482 2010-12-20 23:28:42 <Diablo-D3> Ive seen $100k projectors in use
5483 2010-12-20 23:28:46 <Diablo-D3> its not really worht it
5484 2010-12-20 23:28:54 <Diablo-D3> I can buy a $100k plasma and get better use out of it
5485 2010-12-20 23:28:58 <ArtForz> the NEC DLPs starting at $4500 or so are decent
5486 2010-12-20 23:29:09 <nanotube> Sherpa: sorry to say, but i think you might as well face the music: starting a new bitcoin forum from scratch is an idea destined for failure.
5487 2010-12-20 23:29:25 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
5488 2010-12-20 23:29:26 Grantt has joined
5489 2010-12-20 23:29:32 <ArtForz> yeah, but where do I get a 10' plasma? ;)
5490 2010-12-20 23:30:55 <Diablo-D3> closer to 9
5491 2010-12-20 23:30:58 <Diablo-D3> they make 108" plasmas
5492 2010-12-20 23:31:44 <nanotube> or just get a projector, for a fraction of the price
5493 2010-12-20 23:33:13 <TD> hmm
5494 2010-12-20 23:33:14 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: this is what Im saying, you need a $100k projector + screen for it to not suck
5495 2010-12-20 23:33:19 <TD> my script implementation doesn't verify :(
5496 2010-12-20 23:33:26 <TD> nothing is ever easy ...
5497 2010-12-20 23:34:04 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: depends on how picky you are. obviously, for you, the pickiness level is "very" :)
5498 2010-12-20 23:34:39 <Diablo-D3> pure black vignetting pisses me off to no end
5499 2010-12-20 23:36:49 lolcat has joined
5500 2010-12-20 23:37:03 <lolcat> Bitcoins are up in value!
5501 2010-12-20 23:37:16 <lolcat> ;bt;calc 330000
5502 2010-12-20 23:37:23 <lolcat> ;;bt,calc 330000
5503 2010-12-20 23:37:23 <gribble> Error: "bt,calc" is not a valid command.
5504 2010-12-20 23:37:35 <EvanR-work> holy crap
5505 2010-12-20 23:37:44 <lolcat> EvanR-work: Huh?
5506 2010-12-20 23:37:47 <ArtForz> crappy hole?
5507 2010-12-20 23:38:06 <EvanR-work> i shoulda bought ;)
5508 2010-12-20 23:40:36 lzd_hz has joined
5509 2010-12-20 23:40:37 maintstate has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
5510 2010-12-20 23:45:19 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5511 2010-12-20 23:46:28 enoxice has joined
5512 2010-12-20 23:47:02 darrob has joined
5513 2010-12-20 23:49:53 <nanotube> lolcat: it's bc,calc
5514 2010-12-20 23:51:30 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
5515 2010-12-20 23:51:33 Shadowolf_ has joined
5516 2010-12-20 23:51:38 <taiki> what is the endianess of the block sent in getwork?
5517 2010-12-20 23:51:59 Abhish has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
5518 2010-12-20 23:52:58 theymos has joined
5519 2010-12-20 23:53:57 Gryllida has joined
5520 2010-12-20 23:54:02 <taiki> answer: getwork is big-endian
5521 2010-12-20 23:54:25 genjix has joined
5522 2010-12-20 23:55:37 Cusipzzz has joined
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