1 2010-12-21 00:11:34 <theymos> bitcoin.it is down.
   2 2010-12-21 00:13:27 <Sirius_> for replacing a hard disk
   3 2010-12-21 00:14:12 <Sirius_> that can happen when you're not on a cloud vps :P
   4 2010-12-21 00:16:14 <theymos> Since bitcoin.it is now the "official" wiki, is there any way to put a notice on the top of bitcoin.org/wiki so that people don't look at old pages?
   5 2010-12-21 00:17:07 <nanotube> theymos: /is/ bitcoin.it the official wiki now?
   6 2010-12-21 00:17:33 <theymos> It's linked from bitcoin.org.
   7 2010-12-21 00:18:09 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
   8 2010-12-21 00:19:51 <nanotube> theymos: aaah ic.
   9 2010-12-21 00:20:05 <nanotube> the dokuwiki has been deprecated then eh.
  10 2010-12-21 00:21:12 <theymos> Looks like it. I really preferred the look of DokuWiki, though MediaWiki does have some nice advanced features.
  11 2010-12-21 00:22:43 <MT`AwAy> theymos: I'm replacing hard disk
  12 2010-12-21 00:22:58 <MT`AwAy> it decided to die on me :(
  13 2010-12-21 00:23:03 <nanotube> i see. well, MT`AwAy has been doing a nice job with the wiki. :)
  14 2010-12-21 00:23:20 <theymos> MT`AwAy: Was there a backup?
  15 2010-12-21 00:23:25 <MT`AwAy> theymos: of course
  16 2010-12-21 00:23:48 <MT`AwAy> real time overcontiental backup
  17 2010-12-21 00:23:53 ColonelPanic1 has joined
  18 2010-12-21 00:24:14 <MT`AwAy> (basically disk writes are buffered and sent to a backup server in Europe, now the restoration is slow because there's a lot of data to copy back)
  19 2010-12-21 00:25:22 <ne0futur> MT`AwAy: only one disk ? so it was indeed raid related ?
  20 2010-12-21 00:25:33 <ne0futur> and not ext3 :p
  21 2010-12-21 00:25:39 <MT`AwAy> ne0futur: that's a different issue
  22 2010-12-21 00:25:46 <ne0futur> ok
  23 2010-12-21 00:25:59 <MT`AwAy> ne0futur: a few hours ago an unrelated server had a software crash
  24 2010-12-21 00:26:23 <MT`AwAy> and at the same time two other sysadmin I know had hard disk related issues
  25 2010-12-21 00:26:33 <ne0futur> retrograde mercury is hitting you hard :p
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  27 2010-12-21 00:27:53 <MT`AwAy> I wish I had time to finish my new hosting system
  28 2010-12-21 00:28:03 <MT`AwAy> would have allowed putting sites back online easily :(
  29 2010-12-21 00:28:17 <MT`AwAy> (and automatically)
  30 2010-12-21 00:28:36 <ne0futur> better do the new things after the retrograde mercury
  31 2010-12-21 00:28:42 dduane has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  32 2010-12-21 00:29:49 <MT`AwAy> anyway I'm working on that
  33 2010-12-21 00:29:55 <MT`AwAy> stuff should be back up within ~2 hours
  34 2010-12-21 00:31:19 <MT`AwAy> it's a bit sad to see a hard disk failing after one year and 3 days
  35 2010-12-21 00:31:48 <TD> theymos: oh great. i just added stuff to the dokuwiki today
  36 2010-12-21 00:32:26 <TD> oh well, no matter
  37 2010-12-21 00:33:35 <theymos> What did you add?
  38 2010-12-21 00:33:40 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
  39 2010-12-21 00:34:00 TD has joined
  40 2010-12-21 00:34:23 <theymos> What did you add to the old wiki? That scripting info?
  41 2010-12-21 00:35:43 [Noodles] has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
  42 2010-12-21 00:37:45 <theymos> Firefox has the worst custom SSL support ever... every time I go to github.com I have to search for the subdomains that aren't loading and specifically allow them because github uses a wildcard certificate and I don't trust GoDaddy as a CA. I think I finally got all of the subdomains.
  43 2010-12-21 00:39:14 <MT`AwAy> :p
  44 2010-12-21 00:39:19 <MT`AwAy> github uses godady?
  45 2010-12-21 00:39:22 <da2ce7> MT`Away, going to move to SSD?
  46 2010-12-21 00:39:25 <MT`AwAy> godaddy*
  47 2010-12-21 00:39:36 <MT`AwAy> da2ce7: too much data, unless you can give me a 2TB SSD
  48 2010-12-21 00:39:49 <MT`AwAy> oh lol, github is DV
  49 2010-12-21 00:39:57 <da2ce7> :( no, I cannot offord that, yet.
  50 2010-12-21 00:40:21 <theymos> Yes. A surprising number of people use GoDaddy for certs, even though they are one of the most untrustworthy companies around.
  51 2010-12-21 00:42:00 <MT`AwAy> I only use godaddy when I need to steal someone's domain
  52 2010-12-21 00:42:03 <doublec> theymos, what do other browsers do in that case/
  53 2010-12-21 00:42:25 <theymos> Other browsers use the system certificate store, which is usually more flexible.
  54 2010-12-21 00:42:27 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
  55 2010-12-21 00:44:03 <MT`AwAy> theymos: can't you just take github's certificate and add it to trusted certificates?
  56 2010-12-21 00:46:17 <theymos> Just tried it -- it doesn't help. Github might be doing something odd; I've never had this problem with any other wildcard sites.
  57 2010-12-21 00:50:51 <theymos> ICANN uses a GoDaddy cert, too...
  58 2010-12-21 00:51:21 <MT`AwAy> Oo
  59 2010-12-21 01:09:05 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  62 2010-12-21 01:12:29 <taiki> lets say i want to check a result returned from getwork, (i am the server), how do i do it? Bigger problem is probably python
  63 2010-12-21 01:13:06 <theymos> Hash the returned block and check that the hash is lower than the current target.
  64 2010-12-21 01:14:31 <taiki> thank you, do i not need to worry about the padding?
  65 2010-12-21 01:17:24 acous has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  66 2010-12-21 01:18:43 <theymos> The padding is also hashed, I believe.
  67 2010-12-21 01:18:57 <BoBeR> anyone know anything about firefox plugins
  68 2010-12-21 01:20:57 <taiki> theymos: thanks a lot, I had it backwards checking if it were greater ... DUH was driving me insane
  69 2010-12-21 01:22:13 <EvanR> ArtForz: do you have a website or something showcasing this asic?
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  90 2010-12-21 03:48:44 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqwvVPfarP4
  91 2010-12-21 03:48:47 <genjix> our project :)
  92 2010-12-21 03:48:51 <genjix> still early stages
  93 2010-12-21 03:50:28 osmosis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  94 2010-12-21 03:54:38 <doublec> that video is just a green blur to me
  95 2010-12-21 03:54:45 <doublec> is it the same for anyone else?
  96 2010-12-21 03:55:34 <doublec> looks like youtube converted it wrong?
  97 2010-12-21 03:56:25 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  98 2010-12-21 03:56:59 <doublec> genjix, your 2+2 thread got locked
  99 2010-12-21 03:58:45 <genjix> no, others see it fine.
 100 2010-12-21 03:59:20 <genjix> MT`AwAy: wiki is down!
 101 2010-12-21 03:59:27 <MT`AwAy> genjix: I'm fixing that
 102 2010-12-21 03:59:41 <MT`AwAy> genjix: the hard disk  crashed, I got it replaced and right now I'm copying backups
 103 2010-12-21 03:59:44 <MT`AwAy> it takes time X.x
 104 2010-12-21 03:59:49 <doublec> genjix, no it
 105 2010-12-21 03:59:58 <doublec> genjix, no it's locked. You can't post it in any longer.
 106 2010-12-21 04:00:07 <doublec> genjix, discussion going on about it here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/55/about-forums/whats-up-bitcoinvegas-com-thread-941905/
 107 2010-12-21 04:00:20 <doublec> genjix, one of the arguments is "original poster lost interest"
 108 2010-12-21 04:00:31 <doublec> genjix, oh I see. You were talking about the video.
 109 2010-12-21 04:00:38 <doublec> genjix, weird. I just see garbage.
 110 2010-12-21 04:00:50 <genjix> woah, weird.
 111 2010-12-21 04:00:59 <genjix> i just got a ton of messages all at once.
 112 2010-12-21 04:01:30 <doublec> ooh interesting
 113 2010-12-21 04:01:38 <doublec> that video plays fine in IE, not in firefox
 114 2010-12-21 04:01:46 <genjix> IE :x
 115 2010-12-21 04:02:05 <genjix> yep kind of glad the 2+2 got locked
 116 2010-12-21 04:02:20 <genjix> degenerated into attacks against my personal integrity
 117 2010-12-21 04:02:52 <genjix> better if we fade our for a while and come back with alpha version.
 118 2010-12-21 04:03:11 <genjix> we just needed some testers, and we accomplished that goal by far.
 119 2010-12-21 04:14:48 <genjix> UukGoblin: your suggestion about using jsons was great. thanks so much.
 120 2010-12-21 04:15:01 <genjix> (i never thought of that before)
 121 2010-12-21 04:15:01 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
 122 2010-12-21 04:15:01 <gribble> {"active_workers": 95, "hashes_ps": 5179697796, "shares": 966, "round_started": "2010-12-21 03:59:47"}
 123 2010-12-21 04:15:09 <nanotube> slush_cz: nice, 5.2ghps in the pool. :)
 124 2010-12-21 04:15:23 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 5179697
 125 2010-12-21 04:15:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5179697 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 hours, 49 minutes, and 19 seconds
 126 2010-12-21 04:15:38 <nanotube> and i'm up to 0.4btc balance with my dinky cpu miner. :)
 127 2010-12-21 04:16:34 Cusipzzz has quit ()
 128 2010-12-21 04:19:42 <MT`AwAy> ok, the wiki will be back up faster
 129 2010-12-21 04:20:38 <MT`AwAy> somehow the NAS was /really/ slow to copy back the backup data (like 500kB/s), we'll switch temporarly the connection to use fibre channel to finish the copy
 130 2010-12-21 04:23:32 resters has joined
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 133 2010-12-21 04:29:52 resters has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 134 2010-12-21 04:30:29 <Lysacor> ;;bc,stats
 135 2010-12-21 04:30:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98661 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 122 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 17 hours, 23 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14323.69202857
 136 2010-12-21 04:30:46 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 137 2010-12-21 04:30:58 <Lysacor> 14323, that is gonna be fun...
 138 2010-12-21 04:31:41 <doublec> heh, the slush mining pool found two blocks in a row
 139 2010-12-21 04:31:47 <nanotube> yep, about 17 percent more fun than the 12252 :)
 140 2010-12-21 04:31:52 <doublec> 3 minutes to find the sceond block
 141 2010-12-21 04:32:22 <Lysacor> yeah I have been watching the performance, I am still able to get a block a day roughly... but with the new difficulty, and competing against his pool, it is gonna be nuts
 142 2010-12-21 04:32:26 <da2ce7> yeah that was me :P
 143 2010-12-21 04:32:52 <nanotube> Lysacor: you're not really competing against the pool... no more than you'd be competing if all the pool participants were mining on their own.
 144 2010-12-21 04:33:00 <nanotube> da2ce7: nice :)
 145 2010-12-21 04:33:09 <Lysacor> true
 146 2010-12-21 04:33:23 <da2ce7> I've made 3 bocks for the pool, and have made ~85 BTC :S
 147 2010-12-21 04:33:35 <nanotube> da2ce7: what are you mining on?
 148 2010-12-21 04:33:47 <da2ce7> one 5970 atm
 149 2010-12-21 04:33:51 <Lysacor> so you must be the 3000 Mhash gorilla
 150 2010-12-21 04:33:57 <nanotube> and... how do you know if you've made a real block, or just a low-difficulty-pow?
 151 2010-12-21 04:33:59 <Lysacor> really? hmm
 152 2010-12-21 04:34:13 <da2ce7> ah, the site tells you.
 153 2010-12-21 04:34:16 <nanotube> Lysacor: 5970 only gives 600mh
 154 2010-12-21 04:34:21 <Lysacor> yeah I know
 155 2010-12-21 04:34:21 <da2ce7> you go to you profile page
 156 2010-12-21 04:34:26 <nanotube> da2ce7: ah yea ok
 157 2010-12-21 04:34:31 <Lysacor> I didn't see the card before the comment :P
 158 2010-12-21 04:34:38 <nanotube> da2ce7: i haven't had one of those yet. :)
 159 2010-12-21 04:34:43 <da2ce7> my other one is out of the computer and ready to be shiped back Asus.
 160 2010-12-21 04:35:20 <nanotube> what happened? it died?
 161 2010-12-21 04:35:22 <Lysacor> I am running the 5870 now, manage to squeeze 330mh out of it consistently
 162 2010-12-21 04:35:33 <Lysacor> overclocking? :P
 163 2010-12-21 04:35:38 <nanotube> i only do 750khps or so heh
 164 2010-12-21 04:35:46 <da2ce7> yep. overheated, then pooed it's pants.
 165 2010-12-21 04:35:55 <Lysacor> ewww
 166 2010-12-21 04:36:16 <Lysacor> makes me glad I didn't buy one then, but with these level of cards, heat becomes a real factor
 167 2010-12-21 04:36:42 <nanotube> gotta pay attn to the temps
 168 2010-12-21 04:36:47 <Lysacor> yep
 169 2010-12-21 04:36:51 <da2ce7> ah it was dogey from the start, just took a little while to take effect.
 170 2010-12-21 04:36:57 <nanotube> heh
 171 2010-12-21 04:37:02 <Lysacor> that is why I keep my fan hard set to 63 percent, and it stays under 70C
 172 2010-12-21 04:37:30 <Lysacor> otherwise it hangs around 89C... not a comfortable temp for my tastes
 173 2010-12-21 04:37:37 <nanotube> mm
 174 2010-12-21 04:38:38 <da2ce7> yeah, the ASUS was hanging out at 95C then it died.
 175 2010-12-21 04:39:08 <Lysacor> yep, I don't trust the auto-fan adjustments, I just don't think it is aggressive enough
 176 2010-12-21 04:40:18 <Lysacor> then again, my wife doesn't necessarily appreciate the jet engine sound coming from my desk either...
 177 2010-12-21 04:40:51 <da2ce7> :P
 178 2010-12-21 04:41:08 <da2ce7> lol, yeah. I have my computer in my room... so I have to get used to fan noises.
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 185 2010-12-21 05:03:04 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: your wiki site seem to be broke
 186 2010-12-21 05:03:30 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: yep
 187 2010-12-21 05:03:33 <MT`AwAy> it's almost fixed
 188 2010-12-21 05:03:38 <MT`AwAy> I hate this day
 189 2010-12-21 05:03:46 <MT`AwAy> 8 servers down in less than 24 hours
 190 2010-12-21 05:08:20 <Kiba> you run a hosting company?
 191 2010-12-21 05:11:37 maximi89 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 192 2010-12-21 05:16:18 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: yep
 193 2010-12-21 05:16:41 <Kiba> halfway around the world?
 194 2010-12-21 05:16:49 <MT`AwAy> got servers in europe & us
 195 2010-12-21 05:17:04 <MT`AwAy> still it's the first time I see something like that
 196 2010-12-21 05:17:09 <MT`AwAy> so many servers going down at the same time
 197 2010-12-21 05:17:47 <Kiba> so, how many Japanese users are there in Japan? You know any of them?
 198 2010-12-21 05:18:09 <MT`AwAy> I don't have many japanese customers myself :p
 199 2010-12-21 05:19:17 redengin has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 200 2010-12-21 05:20:31 <Kiba> so you have any Japanese grrlfriend?
 201 2010-12-21 05:21:14 <MT`AwAy> got a few
 202 2010-12-21 05:21:15 <MT`AwAy> :p
 203 2010-12-21 05:21:49 <MT`AwAy> but the latest one is kind of mad against me, her pet died in an accident while under my care :s
 204 2010-12-21 05:24:35 <Kiba> we need to penetrate the Japanese world!
 205 2010-12-21 05:24:37 <nanotube> what kind of pet, and what kind of accident?
 206 2010-12-21 05:25:04 <Kiba> bitcoin will unites the people of earth!
 207 2010-12-21 05:26:24 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: a ferret
 208 2010-12-21 05:26:33 <MT`AwAy> the accident involved water
 209 2010-12-21 05:26:51 <MT`AwAy> and a ferret managing to go somewhere it shouldn't be, and slipping
 210 2010-12-21 05:27:02 * nanotube suspects the toilet....
 211 2010-12-21 05:27:17 <MT`AwAy> anyway she doesn't want to talk to me anymore
 212 2010-12-21 05:27:36 <nanotube> heh
 213 2010-12-21 05:27:47 <da2ce7> silly girls.
 214 2010-12-21 05:27:54 <da2ce7> :P all they care about is sex and bitcoins.
 215 2010-12-21 05:27:59 <MT`AwAy> :P
 216 2010-12-21 05:28:00 <nanotube> and ferrets.
 217 2010-12-21 05:28:02 <nanotube> heh
 218 2010-12-21 05:28:17 <MT`AwAy> my bank account feels relieved since she didn't talk to me since december 1st
 219 2010-12-21 05:28:23 <MT`AwAy> suddently I have more money
 220 2010-12-21 05:28:46 <nanotube> so... everything turned out pretty well, then :)
 221 2010-12-21 05:29:14 <da2ce7> girlfriends spend your money, guyfriends owe you money.
 222 2010-12-21 05:29:29 <MT`AwAy> xD
 223 2010-12-21 05:30:41 <da2ce7> yay, my bitcoin ballance looks more heathy :) :D gotta love buying bitcoins.
 224 2010-12-21 05:30:58 <nanotube> especially when they go up in value afterwards. :)
 225 2010-12-21 05:31:20 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 226 2010-12-21 05:31:35 <da2ce7> (hopeing, sill have lost like $50, from when I bought those $0.30 ones.)
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 233 2010-12-21 05:55:17 <BoBeR> okay
 234 2010-12-21 05:55:28 <BoBeR> if i send bitcoins
 235 2010-12-21 05:55:44 <BoBeR> what address are they taken from if unspecifeid
 236 2010-12-21 05:56:07 <nanotube> BoBeR: there's a selection algorithm... older coins are preferred... also something about combining multiple small inputs if possible
 237 2010-12-21 05:56:11 <nanotube> iirc
 238 2010-12-21 05:57:16 <BoBeR> so whats the best way to keep coins from mixing
 239 2010-12-21 05:57:29 <BoBeR> use the specific sendfromaddress command
 240 2010-12-21 05:57:36 <BoBeR> or just let it do its thing
 241 2010-12-21 05:58:05 <nanotube> why do you want to keep coins from mixing?
 242 2010-12-21 05:58:36 <BoBeR> incase i get coins on a account so that address is not linked to my other accounts
 243 2010-12-21 05:58:52 <BoBeR> im gonna try to send them to mtgox to get laundered
 244 2010-12-21 05:59:01 <BoBeR> but right now they are all in the same wallet
 245 2010-12-21 05:59:08 <BoBeR> my mistake of that
 246 2010-12-21 05:59:39 <nanotube> well, i dunno anything about accounts... i haven't used any account features. if you want to launder them all... just send them all to mtgox... then withdraw, to a new address you create... you'll in all likelihood get different coins
 247 2010-12-21 06:01:27 <BoBeR> i mean accounts like bober
 248 2010-12-21 06:01:27 annodomini has joined
 249 2010-12-21 06:01:29 <BoBeR> and anon
 250 2010-12-21 06:01:38 <BoBeR> i should have said identitys
 251 2010-12-21 06:02:51 <annodomini> The wiki appears to be down. Has whoever maintains it been informed?
 252 2010-12-21 06:03:46 <annodomini> Also, where is the best place to get the bitcoin source? I was hoping the wiki would tell me, but it appears to be down.
 253 2010-12-21 06:06:45 <nanotube> annodomini: yes, wiki is being worked on. source - pull from svn, or grab the tarball from sf.net
 254 2010-12-21 06:09:40 <annodomini> nanotube:  thanks.
 255 2010-12-21 06:10:03 <nanotube> np
 256 2010-12-21 06:10:09 <MT`AwAy> annodomini: the wiki is back soon, I'm copying data as fast as I can now
 257 2010-12-21 06:10:17 <MT`AwAy> (fibre channel rocks)
 258 2010-12-21 06:10:39 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: there couldn't have possibly been that much data in that wiki yet...
 259 2010-12-21 06:10:46 <annodomini> MT`AwAy: Sounds good, just wanted to check to see if it had been noticed.
 260 2010-12-21 06:11:02 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: there couldn't be possibly only one wiki on a big server
 261 2010-12-21 06:11:18 <MT`AwAy> hard disk failure = whole server needs restore
 262 2010-12-21 06:11:38 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: hehe ic. well there /could/ be only one, but it would be unlikely. :)
 263 2010-12-21 06:11:46 <Kiba> hard disk failure
 264 2010-12-21 06:11:47 <Kiba> eh?
 265 2010-12-21 06:11:53 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: hard disk died
 266 2010-12-21 06:12:10 <Kiba> seem to be the most unreliable part of the computer
 267 2010-12-21 06:12:24 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: that's why RAID was invented
 268 2010-12-21 06:12:56 <Kiba> how about SSD?
 269 2010-12-21 06:13:21 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 270 2010-12-21 06:13:40 <MT`AwAy> too expensive
 271 2010-12-21 06:13:45 <MT`AwAy> (and not much more reliable)
 272 2010-12-21 06:15:40 <MT`AwAy> mh
 273 2010-12-21 06:15:48 <MT`AwAy> mysql doesn't like when the system is full I/O wait
 274 2010-12-21 06:15:51 RazielZ has joined
 275 2010-12-21 06:16:40 <annodomini> RAID is great until two drives die at the same time. Over Christmas break. At a time when your backups were broken because you don't have a dedicated sysadmin. That was a fun Christmas break to come back from.
 276 2010-12-21 06:17:22 <MT`AwAy> annodomini: I got 8 servers breaking at the same time
 277 2010-12-21 06:17:25 <MT`AwAy> in only one night
 278 2010-12-21 06:17:27 <MT`AwAy> (this night)
 279 2010-12-21 06:17:37 <Kiba> sound like a bad case of....
 280 2010-12-21 06:17:50 <annodomini> MT`AwAy: Ouch.
 281 2010-12-21 06:18:08 <MT`AwAy> and almost only unrelated servers
 282 2010-12-21 06:18:28 <Kiba> that's some bad luck
 283 2010-12-21 06:18:37 <Kiba> any angry customer mail yet?
 284 2010-12-21 06:18:38 <MT`AwAy> well
 285 2010-12-21 06:18:49 <MT`AwAy> had more than one year without any down of any sort
 286 2010-12-21 06:19:09 <MT`AwAy> I guess they wanted to complete their share for 2010
 287 2010-12-21 06:19:18 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: yes, of course, mails, phone calls, etc
 288 2010-12-21 06:22:14 <Kiba> they don't tolerate bullshit well, eh?
 289 2010-12-21 06:24:12 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: I explained that I was working on that and promized a report, after
 290 2010-12-21 06:24:23 <MT`AwAy> just let me fix your fucking site before complaining
 291 2010-12-21 06:24:32 <MT`AwAy> well, something like that
 292 2010-12-21 06:27:35 * MT`AwAy apply ionice on the rsync processes
 293 2010-12-21 06:27:44 <MT`AwAy> let's see if it helps mysql
 294 2010-12-21 06:32:32 * Kiba 
 295 2010-12-21 06:32:38 * Kiba ponders creating a bot town
 296 2010-12-21 06:32:43 <Kiba> real world bot town!
 297 2010-12-21 06:32:51 <Kiba> played by players around the world!
 298 2010-12-21 06:32:58 darrob- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 299 2010-12-21 06:33:01 <Kiba> instead of a virtual world, it's in the real world
 300 2010-12-21 06:33:41 <Kiba> buy out abandoned property
 301 2010-12-21 06:33:56 <Kiba> bring infrastructure to connect bots...
 302 2010-12-21 06:40:48 <Sherpa> Type !btc.stats :)
 303 2010-12-21 06:41:42 Lysacor-dc has joined
 304 2010-12-21 06:43:02 <epicurus> Kiba,  you mean westworld
 305 2010-12-21 06:43:23 darrob has joined
 306 2010-12-21 06:43:57 <lfm> or just a bunch of rumbas running around a warehouse floor
 307 2010-12-21 06:44:16 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 308 2010-12-21 06:44:59 <nanotube> hehe
 309 2010-12-21 06:45:10 <nanotube> the cleanest warehouse ever!
 310 2010-12-21 06:45:13 <Kiba> flying robots through obstacle course
 311 2010-12-21 06:45:18 <Kiba> of maybe..indoor air battles
 312 2010-12-21 06:45:22 <BoBeR> !btc.stats
 313 2010-12-21 06:45:22 <Sherpa> Blocks: 98679 Coins: 4933950 Difficulty: 12252.034712 BTC/Block: 50
 314 2010-12-21 06:45:29 <Kiba> complete with players crashing their planes into walls
 315 2010-12-21 06:45:37 <BoBeR> !btc.help
 316 2010-12-21 06:45:38 <Sherpa> BTCBot v0.3 Commmands: !btc.ver !btc.blocks !btc.diff !btc.coins !btc.btcpb !btc.target !btc.stats !btc.help
 317 2010-12-21 06:45:41 Lysacor has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 318 2010-12-21 06:45:51 <BoBeR> !btc.target
 319 2010-12-21 06:45:51 <Sherpa> BitCoin Target:
 320 2010-12-21 06:45:55 <BoBeR> !btc.target 99000
 321 2010-12-21 06:45:55 <Sherpa> BitCoin Target:
 322 2010-12-21 06:46:01 <Sherpa> that one needs work
 323 2010-12-21 06:46:03 <Kiba> DIE DIE DIE...
 324 2010-12-21 06:46:09 <Kiba> SMMMMMMMMMMMASH
 325 2010-12-21 06:46:18 <Sherpa> try again
 326 2010-12-21 06:46:21 <BoBeR> kiba arnt you a little violent for that
 327 2010-12-21 06:46:23 <BoBeR> !btc.target 99000
 328 2010-12-21 06:46:23 <Sherpa> BitCoin Target: 2147483647
 329 2010-12-21 06:46:33 <Kiba> BoBeR: it's just broken bots
 330 2010-12-21 06:46:35 <BoBeR> the fuck does that mean
 331 2010-12-21 06:46:39 <Sherpa> decimal target, but it doesnt take it all
 332 2010-12-21 06:46:56 <BoBeR> Sherpa, whats the target
 333 2010-12-21 06:46:58 <Kiba> I wonder why robot battles are remote controlled
 334 2010-12-21 06:47:02 <Kiba> instead of being autonomous
 335 2010-12-21 06:47:06 <Sherpa> 2200419182034594781720344474937177839165432393990533906392154112
 336 2010-12-21 06:47:12 <BoBeR> more control then ai
 337 2010-12-21 06:47:21 <BoBeR> humans can think better
 338 2010-12-21 06:47:28 <Sherpa> Hex 0000000000055953000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 339 2010-12-21 06:47:39 <Kiba> I would like to see robot armies on battlefields
 340 2010-12-21 06:47:43 <BoBeR> code is hard to dynamically generate and if it is then new tactics are really hard
 341 2010-12-21 06:47:53 <BoBeR> predeterminded algos are possible
 342 2010-12-21 06:47:56 <BoBeR> but not new ones
 343 2010-12-21 06:48:16 <Kiba> BoBeR: it's called programming bots to learn tactics!
 344 2010-12-21 06:48:40 <BoBeR> you mean AI
 345 2010-12-21 06:48:50 <BoBeR> thats hard
 346 2010-12-21 06:48:56 <Kiba> bots..AI..whatever
 347 2010-12-21 06:48:58 <BoBeR> i mean you can try learning and adaptation
 348 2010-12-21 06:49:11 <Kiba> that's why it's research
 349 2010-12-21 06:49:12 <BoBeR> but i belive computers will never be able of independent thought
 350 2010-12-21 06:49:29 <BoBeR> like on its first time it will not invent something
 351 2010-12-21 06:49:34 <BoBeR> it may improve
 352 2010-12-21 06:49:36 <Kiba> our brains aren't special
 353 2010-12-21 06:49:37 <BoBeR> or counter
 354 2010-12-21 06:49:44 <BoBeR> but not invent
 355 2010-12-21 06:49:49 <Kiba> nonsense.
 356 2010-12-21 06:49:57 <BoBeR> no computer will ever be able to make bitcoins
 357 2010-12-21 06:50:01 <Kiba> ideas are synthesis of previous ideas
 358 2010-12-21 06:50:03 <BoBeR> they may make it perfect
 359 2010-12-21 06:50:12 <BoBeR> okay
 360 2010-12-21 06:50:17 <BoBeR> then wheres the first idea
 361 2010-12-21 06:50:17 <BoBeR> ?
 362 2010-12-21 06:50:19 <Kiba> human beings
 363 2010-12-21 06:50:20 <Kiba> are stupid.
 364 2010-12-21 06:50:24 <BoBeR> agreed
 365 2010-12-21 06:50:33 <Kiba> can't think worth a damn on their own
 366 2010-12-21 06:50:35 <BoBeR> computers are just doing exactly what you tell them to
 367 2010-12-21 06:50:39 <Kiba> so they rely on everybody
 368 2010-12-21 06:50:41 <Kiba> else
 369 2010-12-21 06:50:57 <BoBeR> yet hold on
 370 2010-12-21 06:51:03 <BoBeR> how would markets work then
 371 2010-12-21 06:51:09 <BoBeR> if we are all stupid
 372 2010-12-21 06:51:09 <lfm> BoBeR: I wish my computers did exactly what I told em to do
 373 2010-12-21 06:51:16 <Kiba> markets used distributed intelligence, BoBeR
 374 2010-12-21 06:51:30 <BoBeR> but they listen to stupid beings
 375 2010-12-21 06:51:31 <Kiba> you and I don't know shit how to make pencil
 376 2010-12-21 06:51:35 <BoBeR> i do
 377 2010-12-21 06:51:42 <Kiba> good for you.
 378 2010-12-21 06:51:47 <BoBeR> well define pencil
 379 2010-12-21 06:51:59 <Kiba> pencils are what you buy at the office store
 380 2010-12-21 06:52:09 <BoBeR> hmm then maybe not perfectly
 381 2010-12-21 06:52:22 <BoBeR> but im pretty sure i can encase charcoal into a container
 382 2010-12-21 06:52:24 <BoBeR> and write with it
 383 2010-12-21 06:52:26 <Kiba> in any case, since we don't know everything..can't think of everything
 384 2010-12-21 06:52:29 <lfm> kiba naw, steal em from office supplies
 385 2010-12-21 06:52:37 <Kiba> we relies on other human beings who know things that we don't know
 386 2010-12-21 06:53:02 <Kiba> Satoshi may be a genuis, but he synthesized existing ideas
 387 2010-12-21 06:53:20 <Kiba> from people like Wei Dai..who are damn smart
 388 2010-12-21 06:53:34 <BoBeR> <Kiba> human beings
 389 2010-12-21 06:53:34 <BoBeR> <Kiba> are stupid.
 390 2010-12-21 06:53:39 <BoBeR> <Kiba> from people like Wei Dai..who are damn smart
 391 2010-12-21 06:53:46 <BoBeR> dont understand
 392 2010-12-21 06:53:47 <BoBeR> you lost me
 393 2010-12-21 06:54:01 <Kiba> Wei Dai is intelligent and knowledgable
 394 2010-12-21 06:54:07 <Kiba> in his own way
 395 2010-12-21 06:54:17 Lysacor-dc is now known as Lysacor
 396 2010-12-21 06:54:20 Lysacor has quit (Changing host)
 397 2010-12-21 06:54:20 Lysacor has joined
 398 2010-12-21 06:54:21 <Kiba> but other human beings are also intelligent and knowledgable in other area..
 399 2010-12-21 06:54:35 <Kiba> if you have just one human being...he couldn't invent a damn computer
 400 2010-12-21 06:54:43 [Noodles] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 401 2010-12-21 06:54:43 <Kiba> so we are smarter by combining our own knowledge
 402 2010-12-21 06:54:47 <Kiba> with others
 403 2010-12-21 06:54:59 <lfm> kiba never heard of Babbage?
 404 2010-12-21 06:55:05 <Kiba> individually, we are stupid.
 405 2010-12-21 06:55:10 <epicurus> it's called division of labor
 406 2010-12-21 06:55:24 <Kiba> but by sharing and communicating, we learn and build on each other works
 407 2010-12-21 06:55:40 <Kiba> epicurus: yeah, like making a pencil
 408 2010-12-21 06:55:44 <epicurus> not really
 409 2010-12-21 06:55:55 <epicurus> capitalism is anti innovation
 410 2010-12-21 06:56:05 <epicurus> patent laws, for instance
 411 2010-12-21 06:56:10 <lfm> kiba computers can be very simple and quite possible for one person to design and build
 412 2010-12-21 06:56:18 <Kiba> patents law are not a form of captialism, but statism
 413 2010-12-21 06:56:19 <epicurus> copyright
 414 2010-12-21 06:56:26 <Kiba> copyright is also a form of statism
 415 2010-12-21 06:56:31 <Kiba> which have nothing to do with capitalism
 416 2010-12-21 06:56:47 <Kiba> it's interventionist crap
 417 2010-12-21 06:56:47 <epicurus> so you don't believe in intellectual property?
 418 2010-12-21 06:57:07 <Kiba> epicurus: no, I am a libertarian. I don't believe in IP.
 419 2010-12-21 06:57:09 <da2ce7> I beleve in names, but that is it
 420 2010-12-21 06:57:16 <BoBeR> but now
 421 2010-12-21 06:57:25 <Kiba> it's a bunch of nonsense.
 422 2010-12-21 06:57:32 <BoBeR> if the end result of capitalism is that all property is private
 423 2010-12-21 06:57:37 <epicurus> i never heard that libertarians don' tbelieve in IP
 424 2010-12-21 06:57:38 <BoBeR> like all roads are private
 425 2010-12-21 06:57:41 <lfm> da2ce7: names like trademarks?
 426 2010-12-21 06:57:47 <Kiba> epicurus: evidently, you been living under a rock.
 427 2010-12-21 06:57:51 <BoBeR> and we charge to be on the roads
 428 2010-12-21 06:57:58 <BoBeR> and you expect a profit
 429 2010-12-21 06:58:00 <Kiba> even Juan don't believe in intellectual property
 430 2010-12-21 06:58:05 AAA_awright_ has joined
 431 2010-12-21 06:58:07 <BoBeR> wont we just run out of money
 432 2010-12-21 06:58:31 <Kiba> even Murray N. Rothbard said patents are evil. And he died in 1995.
 433 2010-12-21 06:58:56 <Kiba> BoBeR: do you want to die in road accidents?
 434 2010-12-21 06:59:08 blueminder has joined
 435 2010-12-21 06:59:17 <Kiba> that what government roads do. They have no accountability. Oh..it's just an accident.
 436 2010-12-21 06:59:19 <lfm> copyright is worse than patents
 437 2010-12-21 06:59:23 <da2ce7> The only form of IP I agree with is not to plagerize
 438 2010-12-21 07:00:01 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 439 2010-12-21 07:00:03 <x6763> epicurus: http://mises.org/books/against.pdf - Against Intellectual Property by Stephan Kinsella and http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/against.htm - Against Intellectual Monopoly by Boldrin and Levine
 440 2010-12-21 07:00:13 <BoBeR> kiba but if everyone is making a profit
 441 2010-12-21 07:00:20 <BoBeR> then everyone will at one point go broke
 442 2010-12-21 07:00:29 <Kiba> BoBeR: we all make profits at different time.
 443 2010-12-21 07:00:34 <BoBeR> no one will be the richer
 444 2010-12-21 07:00:40 <epicurus> x6763,  ok but i doubt i will read it, i am already against those and don't need convincing
 445 2010-12-21 07:00:42 <BoBeR> or then some will be poorer
 446 2010-12-21 07:00:47 <BoBeR> and the just luck out
 447 2010-12-21 07:00:54 <BoBeR> how is that remotely fair
 448 2010-12-21 07:00:55 <x6763> epicurus: nice
 449 2010-12-21 07:00:59 <lfm> BoBeR: not if they keep printing new money
 450 2010-12-21 07:01:05 <Kiba> epicurus: evidently yo uthink libertarians support IP. YOu should read it from their perspective.
 451 2010-12-21 07:01:51 <Kiba> their reason for opposition against IP are not neccesary the same for your reason to opposition.
 452 2010-12-21 07:02:16 <Kiba> the stock market is profitable because of inflation...
 453 2010-12-21 07:02:25 <lfm> ip includes trademarks which few people oopose
 454 2010-12-21 07:02:46 <Kiba> trademarks create more problem than it solve, lfm
 455 2010-12-21 07:03:13 <x6763> i've not read all of Against Intellectual Monopoly, but Kinsella's Against Intellectual Property was a good read, and was what convinced me that IP was nonsense
 456 2010-12-21 07:03:23 <lfm> kiba seems that names/trademarks should be unique to me
 457 2010-12-21 07:03:35 <epicurus> Kiba,  i didn't say that. i said i never heard they didn't support IP. i personally don't care much about what libertarians think.
 458 2010-12-21 07:03:43 <Kiba> lfm: if only life was simplier here
 459 2010-12-21 07:03:50 <epicurus> i consider libertarians to be half ass anarchists
 460 2010-12-21 07:03:53 <da2ce7> yay, sold my broken 5970 :D will get repaied and I will get 50% of the coins generated on it once it opperation. :P Win-Win.
 461 2010-12-21 07:03:58 <Kiba> epicurus: if you want to convince people here, you gottach learn how they think
 462 2010-12-21 07:04:07 <Kiba> epicurus: we are anarchists.
 463 2010-12-21 07:04:09 <epicurus> convince who of what?
 464 2010-12-21 07:04:11 <Kiba> not half ass, but anarchists.
 465 2010-12-21 07:04:26 <epicurus> then why do you call yourself a libertarian
 466 2010-12-21 07:04:29 <Kiba> about a pluarity of bitcoiners ARE anarchist
 467 2010-12-21 07:04:35 <lfm> da2ce7: scum seller of broken crap huh
 468 2010-12-21 07:04:36 <Kiba> epicurus: because we are also libertarian.
 469 2010-12-21 07:04:48 <epicurus> what's the difference, in your mind?
 470 2010-12-21 07:04:56 <blueminder> I think a huge target audience of bitcoin was the anarchist/libertarian types.
 471 2010-12-21 07:05:00 <BoBeR> i am an anarchist
 472 2010-12-21 07:05:01 <Kiba> it's not mutually exclusive.
 473 2010-12-21 07:05:08 <epicurus> libertarians do support a state
 474 2010-12-21 07:05:09 <BoBeR> even tho im a lefty
 475 2010-12-21 07:05:16 <epicurus> because they always want to settle things in the courts
 476 2010-12-21 07:05:24 <epicurus> as if we can have courts without the state
 477 2010-12-21 07:05:25 <Kiba> epicurus: libertarianism is a wide tent, epicurus.
 478 2010-12-21 07:05:32 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
 479 2010-12-21 07:05:32 <Kiba> Of course osme of them do support a state.
 480 2010-12-21 07:05:34 <blueminder> Libertarians you mean, as opposed to libertarian.
 481 2010-12-21 07:05:48 <epicurus> ok fair enough
 482 2010-12-21 07:06:17 <Kiba> but if you take libertarianism to its conclusion, you will be an anarchist.
 483 2010-12-21 07:06:20 <epicurus> yeah the Libertarian party is a joke, only one notch above the tea party
 484 2010-12-21 07:06:36 <BoBeR> tea is for the rich
 485 2010-12-21 07:06:38 <epicurus> Kiba,  yes, in other words, half ass anarchists
 486 2010-12-21 07:06:57 <Kiba> BoBeR: ever have Thai tea? It's awesome.
 487 2010-12-21 07:07:06 <blueminder> Yeah, I think many cling to the party just so that their political positions seem more accepted in society.
 488 2010-12-21 07:07:09 <Kiba> but then I like anything sweet.
 489 2010-12-21 07:07:15 <nanotube> and if you put anarchism together with the realities of human nature... you get libertarianism. heh.
 490 2010-12-21 07:07:34 <Kiba> nanotube: some people think libertarianism and anarchism is a naive idealogy
 491 2010-12-21 07:07:43 <BoBeR> kiba i actially love tea
 492 2010-12-21 07:07:52 <BoBeR> i was joking about tea and being rich
 493 2010-12-21 07:07:55 <Kiba> human are bad mkay? It's not like we thinks humans are goodies or whatever.
 494 2010-12-21 07:07:57 <epicurus> nanotube,  the realities of human nature? or the conditioning we have been subjected to?
 495 2010-12-21 07:08:02 <BoBeR> glad we agreed on something
 496 2010-12-21 07:08:15 <nanotube> epicurus: yes, and yes.
 497 2010-12-21 07:09:01 <epicurus> nanotube,  so you believe humans are inherently evil?
 498 2010-12-21 07:09:11 <Kiba> I think human beings are amoral.
 499 2010-12-21 07:09:19 <Kiba> which pretty much mean amount to badness.
 500 2010-12-21 07:09:39 <Kiba> but then I might be looking at the extreme version
 501 2010-12-21 07:09:56 <nanotube> epicurus: no, just that /some/ humans are evil. all it takes is a little shit in your tea, to ruin the whole cup.
 502 2010-12-21 07:10:01 <Kiba> but when your self interests is in question..it kinda hard to put yourself on an ethical perspective
 503 2010-12-21 07:10:28 Granttt has joined
 504 2010-12-21 07:10:47 <epicurus> nanotube,  but you don't think any evil humans will find their way into government?
 505 2010-12-21 07:11:17 <epicurus> if humans are flawed... should appointing flawed humans to govern us be expected to work?
 506 2010-12-21 07:11:28 <Kiba> it isn't clear if power corrupts human beings or is it the other ways?
 507 2010-12-21 07:11:32 <da2ce7> wondering what this convo is doing in the bitcoin DEVELOPMENT channel... move to  #bitcoin-discussion  !!
 508 2010-12-21 07:11:33 <Kiba> epicurus: no of course.
 509 2010-12-21 07:11:37 <nanotube> epicurus: yes they will. and in absence of government, they'll try to create one (and succeed)
 510 2010-12-21 07:11:40 <Kiba> we follow self-interests. if that is a given.
 511 2010-12-21 07:11:49 <Kiba> maybe not.
 512 2010-12-21 07:12:16 <epicurus> nanotube,  so governemnt is the disease not the cure
 513 2010-12-21 07:12:41 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
 514 2010-12-21 07:12:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98681 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 102 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 14 hours, 32 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14330.43079027
 515 2010-12-21 07:12:49 <cosurgi> ;;bc,target
 516 2010-12-21 07:12:49 <gribble> Error: "bc,target" is not a valid command.
 517 2010-12-21 07:12:57 <cosurgi> what's the current hash target?
 518 2010-12-21 07:12:59 <da2ce7> ;;bc,help
 519 2010-12-21 07:12:59 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
 520 2010-12-21 07:13:04 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 521 2010-12-21 07:13:06 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
 522 2010-12-21 07:13:07 <epicurus> if everyone thought about the folly of appointing power seekers and flawed humans to govern honest people, they would never agree to it
 523 2010-12-21 07:13:07 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.275,"low":0.24,"vol":11017,"buy":0.251,"sell":0.2611,"last":0.251}}
 524 2010-12-21 07:13:07 <Kiba> if humans are good, we don't need rulers! BUt if humans are bad, we don't want rulers!
 525 2010-12-21 07:13:20 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 526 2010-12-21 07:13:28 <nanotube> we need rules, not rulers.
 527 2010-12-21 07:13:31 <Kiba> humans don't know everything.
 528 2010-12-21 07:13:33 <cosurgi> I mean - hash target expressed in hex, not in 'so called difficulty'
 529 2010-12-21 07:13:35 <da2ce7> !!bc,poolstats
 530 2010-12-21 07:13:36 <cosurgi> how many zero bits.
 531 2010-12-21 07:13:39 <Kiba> they shouldn't be expected
 532 2010-12-21 07:13:49 <da2ce7> ;;bc,poolstats
 533 2010-12-21 07:13:50 <gribble> {"active_workers": 93, "hashes_ps": 5246502576, "shares": 14082, "round_started": "2010-12-21 03:59:47"}
 534 2010-12-21 07:13:51 <Kiba> to anaylze and study which person is suited for office
 535 2010-12-21 07:13:56 <epicurus> nanotube,  the laws are derived from the prevailing culture
 536 2010-12-21 07:14:02 <Kiba> I don't know how to engineer a bridge
 537 2010-12-21 07:14:08 <nanotube> epicurus: and enforced by?
 538 2010-12-21 07:14:11 <epicurus> nanotube,  criminals don't obey laws, therefore laws are useless
 539 2010-12-21 07:14:12 <Kiba> why sould I be expected to select someone for office?
 540 2010-12-21 07:14:24 <nanotube> epicurus: yes, without enforcement
 541 2010-12-21 07:14:25 <epicurus> the only people who don't care about the law are the criminals
 542 2010-12-21 07:15:05 <Kiba> they get locked up in prison industrial complex and become more criminal!
 543 2010-12-21 07:15:12 EvanR has joined
 544 2010-12-21 07:15:14 <epicurus> by definition , all criminals are law breakers, therefore it does not matter what laws you pass
 545 2010-12-21 07:15:14 larsig has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
 546 2010-12-21 07:15:20 <Kiba> the rule of laws is very improtant
 547 2010-12-21 07:15:35 <nanotube> cosurgi: ,,bc,hextarget
 548 2010-12-21 07:15:36 <gribble> 0000000000055953000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 549 2010-12-21 07:15:52 <Kiba> you know what the consequences are, you know how the system work, and so on...and you know what will happens to you.
 550 2010-12-21 07:15:54 <BoBeR> kiba im sure you could make a bridge
 551 2010-12-21 07:16:02 <Kiba> BoBeR: a very bad bridge!
 552 2010-12-21 07:16:06 <nanotube> epicurus: so given the fact that criminals exist, how do you deal with them, then? or do you just assume them away?
 553 2010-12-21 07:16:08 <Kiba> which fall apart in a matter of months!
 554 2010-12-21 07:16:09 <BoBeR> sure
 555 2010-12-21 07:16:13 <BoBeR> but then you would test something
 556 2010-12-21 07:16:14 <epicurus> legalism does not work. a culture of social harmony and order is far more effective
 557 2010-12-21 07:16:17 <BoBeR> and make it better
 558 2010-12-21 07:16:22 <Kiba> BoBeR: but it takes year!
 559 2010-12-21 07:16:26 <Kiba> I rather have some expert build it
 560 2010-12-21 07:16:35 <Kiba> and I focus on stuff that I am interested in
 561 2010-12-21 07:16:43 <Kiba> like
 562 2010-12-21 07:16:45 <Kiba> building bots
 563 2010-12-21 07:16:47 Zarutian has joined
 564 2010-12-21 07:16:47 <BoBeR> so your a collectivist
 565 2010-12-21 07:16:47 <Kiba> and building games
 566 2010-12-21 07:17:08 <BoBeR> you assume others can work together to make things
 567 2010-12-21 07:17:13 <ne0futur> total moon eclipse right now for north and south america
 568 2010-12-21 07:17:14 <Kiba> BoBeR: naw.
 569 2010-12-21 07:17:18 <ne0futur> dont miss it
 570 2010-12-21 07:17:25 <Kiba> I assume others are better than me at building bridge
 571 2010-12-21 07:17:26 <BoBeR> how where
 572 2010-12-21 07:17:29 <ne0futur> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/December_2010_lunar_eclipse
 573 2010-12-21 07:17:31 <BoBeR> ne0futur, where do i do
 574 2010-12-21 07:17:36 <epicurus> i've seen a crescent moon before, it isn't very exciting
 575 2010-12-21 07:17:40 <Kiba> obviously, if bridges work...there are some expert somewhere who knows how to build it
 576 2010-12-21 07:17:56 <Kiba> I mean, people crosses bridges everday around the world
 577 2010-12-21 07:18:00 <ne0futur> seeing a crescent moon when its full moon is kind of different
 578 2010-12-21 07:18:09 <Kiba> some people are competent enough to build safe bridges
 579 2010-12-21 07:18:13 <Kiba> and maintain them
 580 2010-12-21 07:18:26 <Kiba> building bridge is simply not my core competency, or my interest
 581 2010-12-21 07:18:41 <da2ce7> I'm supprised that in such a short ammount of time we have more than 5GHash/s on slush's pool.
 582 2010-12-21 07:18:43 <da2ce7> :D
 583 2010-12-21 07:18:59 <nanotube> da2ce7: yea... it's because of the good design - ability to use existing miners.
 584 2010-12-21 07:19:08 <BoBeR> 1 more hour
 585 2010-12-21 07:19:13 <BoBeR> im so seeing this
 586 2010-12-21 07:19:18 <nanotube> da2ce7: i'm surprised that in such a short amount of time, i've already accumulated 0.14 btc balance on the miner. :)
 587 2010-12-21 07:19:19 <BoBeR> today is wat ay
 588 2010-12-21 07:19:43 <BoBeR> day
 589 2010-12-21 07:19:50 <BoBeR> 21 or 20th
 590 2010-12-21 07:19:51 <Kiba> Tuesday
 591 2010-12-21 07:20:14 <da2ce7> nanotube, yeah, well you have been more lucky than me, If I had connected to my local bitcoin I would have made 150BTC, insted I've made arround 90 BTC.
 592 2010-12-21 07:20:15 <da2ce7> :S
 593 2010-12-21 07:20:32 <Kiba> I gave up mining
 594 2010-12-21 07:20:44 <da2ce7> *assumeing I was equaly lucky.
 595 2010-12-21 07:20:59 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 596 2010-12-21 07:21:14 <epicurus> nanotube,  you try to build a harmonious society if people still commit crime they need to be reformed , if they are dangerous to others they need to be exiled
 597 2010-12-21 07:21:23 <BoBeR> kiba you ever try chocalaty mint black tea
 598 2010-12-21 07:21:24 <BoBeR> its awesome
 599 2010-12-21 07:21:34 <Kiba> epicurus: da problem is not easy
 600 2010-12-21 07:21:53 <Kiba> jails are bad for producing harden criminal. what are we supposed to do?
 601 2010-12-21 07:22:10 <Kiba> how do we make sure that the prison industrial complex doesn't spin out of control?
 602 2010-12-21 07:22:10 <da2ce7> shoot them if they invade your property.
 603 2010-12-21 07:22:12 <da2ce7> :P
 604 2010-12-21 07:22:19 <epicurus> it's difficult to say what you would do with criminals in a different cultural reality. our cultural reality creates a lot of criminals because it alienates a lot of people.
 605 2010-12-21 07:22:21 <da2ce7> :O
 606 2010-12-21 07:22:22 <Kiba> obviously
 607 2010-12-21 07:22:26 <Kiba> a lot of problem can be reduced
 608 2010-12-21 07:22:32 EvanR has joined
 609 2010-12-21 07:22:37 <epicurus> if people are well adjusted socially, they are not as likely to want to commit crimes
 610 2010-12-21 07:22:40 <Kiba> take out the drug war, for example
 611 2010-12-21 07:23:01 <da2ce7> and the drug war tax
 612 2010-12-21 07:23:20 <epicurus> if you have no job and no money, your choice is to be a criminal or collect charity
 613 2010-12-21 07:23:52 <Kiba> beggers can make some money
 614 2010-12-21 07:23:57 <da2ce7> maybe we could have places where you can sell your self to be a slave.
 615 2010-12-21 07:24:04 <epicurus> begging is charity
 616 2010-12-21 07:24:08 <da2ce7> in a free socitey that should be leagal.
 617 2010-12-21 07:24:25 <Kiba> sound dangerous..
 618 2010-12-21 07:24:34 <epicurus> i don't think you want to be a slave. maybe a servant.
 619 2010-12-21 07:24:44 <Kiba> indentured servant?
 620 2010-12-21 07:25:07 <epicurus> i'm going now
 621 2010-12-21 07:25:07 <da2ce7> just say, if you voluntary wanted to be a slave...
 622 2010-12-21 07:25:10 <epicurus> bye
 623 2010-12-21 07:25:13 <da2ce7> cya
 624 2010-12-21 07:25:16 <da2ce7> have a good one.
 625 2010-12-21 07:25:20 epicurus has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 626 2010-12-21 07:25:23 <Kiba> da2ce7: we call them servants, right?
 627 2010-12-21 07:25:37 <Kiba> but anyway, a lot of problem could be reduced to the point that you don't have to be a slave
 628 2010-12-21 07:26:02 <da2ce7> nope. they will be slaves... however you are missing the other side of the equation.
 629 2010-12-21 07:26:08 <da2ce7> The right to become bankrupt.
 630 2010-12-21 07:27:03 <da2ce7> If you entered into slavery, you could only volntary maintain that contract.  If you break that contact you can be declared bankrupt, and free again.
 631 2010-12-21 07:27:40 <da2ce7> so in a free socitey slavery will be rare. as it holds no force over a indervisual other than the threat of bankrupsy
 632 2010-12-21 07:28:13 <MT`AwAy> Kiba: bitcoin.it is back btw
 633 2010-12-21 07:28:25 <MT`AwAy> (and I'm going to sleep, I'll reply to your mail once I got some sanity back)
 634 2010-12-21 07:28:28 <da2ce7> MT`Away, great!
 635 2010-12-21 07:28:33 <da2ce7> sleep well good work!
 636 2010-12-21 07:28:44 <MT`AwAy> fixed 8 servers within less than 36 hours
 637 2010-12-21 07:29:05 <BoBeR> pastecoin still down
 638 2010-12-21 07:29:07 <BoBeR> who owns it now
 639 2010-12-21 07:29:37 <MT`AwAy> mh
 640 2010-12-21 07:29:50 <MT`AwAy> pastecoin ... I guess since hte vps restarted something needs to be launched again
 641 2010-12-21 07:30:18 <Kiba> jgarizk, BoBeR
 642 2010-12-21 07:30:23 <Kiba> the guy who created bitcoinwatch.com
 643 2010-12-21 07:30:46 <Kiba> now he's the proud owner of pastecoin
 644 2010-12-21 07:30:49 <BoBeR> i see
 645 2010-12-21 07:31:01 <Kiba> now..if he implement feature suggestion...
 646 2010-12-21 07:31:04 lzd_hz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 647 2010-12-21 07:31:31 <MT`AwAy> gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 648 2010-12-21 07:31:36 <MT`AwAy> gnome terminal has died on my PC
 649 2010-12-21 07:31:36 <BoBeR> lol ya
 650 2010-12-21 07:31:37 <MT`AwAy> wtf
 651 2010-12-21 07:31:42 <BoBeR> or if the actual server worked
 652 2010-12-21 07:32:07 <da2ce7> great track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFSC2e9ggZ4
 653 2010-12-21 07:32:08 <da2ce7> lol
 654 2010-12-21 07:32:25 MT`AwAy is now known as zz_MT`AwAy
 655 2010-12-21 07:37:17 skeledrew has joined
 656 2010-12-21 07:39:13 zz_MT`AwAy is now known as MT`AwAy
 657 2010-12-21 07:39:43 lzd_hz has joined
 658 2010-12-21 07:47:57 <MT`AwAy> I'll fix pastecoin
 659 2010-12-21 07:48:53 <MT`AwAy> mh
 660 2010-12-21 07:48:55 <MT`AwAy> try to
 661 2010-12-21 07:49:14 <Kiba> does anybody actually use...www.soulplaying.com?
 662 2010-12-21 07:49:38 <MT`AwAy> ok
 663 2010-12-21 07:49:39 <MT`AwAy> fixed
 664 2010-12-21 07:49:40 * Kiba have not yet see a lick of bitcoin yet
 665 2010-12-21 07:49:44 <Kiba> from that site
 666 2010-12-21 07:50:23 <OneFixt> People might use it if you could make it something like http://www.rexbox.co.uk/epicwin/
 667 2010-12-21 07:51:17 <Kiba> I don't have resources to do epicwin, OneFixt
 668 2010-12-21 07:51:18 <MT`AwAy> does it feel like bitcoin.it is faster now?
 669 2010-12-21 07:51:24 <Kiba> don't know
 670 2010-12-21 07:51:34 <MT`AwAy> I have that impression from here
 671 2010-12-21 07:51:52 <Kiba> why would you? you have like the world's fastest internet connection
 672 2010-12-21 07:51:52 <MT`AwAy> maybe my mind is just slower because of lack of sleep
 673 2010-12-21 07:53:15 <Kiba> loading doesn't take the longest...it's contacting the DNS server
 674 2010-12-21 07:58:05 <BoBeR> not if you use the right ones
 675 2010-12-21 07:58:10 <BoBeR> 4.2.2.2 is really fast
 676 2010-12-21 07:58:15 <BoBeR> and 4.2.2.3
 677 2010-12-21 08:00:25 <Kiba> wee!
 678 2010-12-21 08:00:31 <Kiba> I sure take time to develop websites
 679 2010-12-21 08:01:44 amiga4000 is now known as Amiga4000
 680 2010-12-21 08:09:41 blueminder has quit (Quit: leaving)
 681 2010-12-21 08:17:10 angus has joined
 682 2010-12-21 08:19:59 <Sherpa> look at the moon
 683 2010-12-21 08:20:48 <ne0futur> It will be the first total lunar eclipse to occur on the day of the Northern Winter Solstice (Southern Summer Solstice) since 1638, and only the second in the Common Era.
 684 2010-12-21 08:23:14 <Amiga4000> currently sun does shine
 685 2010-12-21 08:23:35 lzd_hz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 686 2010-12-21 08:23:39 <Diablo-D3> hrrrrm
 687 2010-12-21 08:23:57 Lysacor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 688 2010-12-21 08:24:07 <Diablo-D3> I think my new code works
 689 2010-12-21 08:36:31 slush_cz has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 690 2010-12-21 08:37:22 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * ref335af / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
 691 2010-12-21 08:37:22 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Added dedicated getwork thread, now only gets new work once per 5
 692 2010-12-21 08:37:22 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: seconds instead of 3 times per gpu per 5 seconds - http://bit.ly/hLT8yO
 693 2010-12-21 08:39:10 akem has joined
 694 2010-12-21 08:39:43 jav_ has joined
 695 2010-12-21 08:40:45 <BoBeR> pastecoin is back up
 696 2010-12-21 08:41:37 <Kiba> hmm
 697 2010-12-21 08:41:41 <Kiba> my income really sucks sometime
 698 2010-12-21 08:42:01 <Kiba> some day, I got two downloads at most..some days 0
 699 2010-12-21 08:42:02 <Kiba> oh well
 700 2010-12-21 08:42:22 <Kiba> I don't even have a completed artwork yet
 701 2010-12-21 08:42:24 <ne0futur> stick to your project during 10 years
 702 2010-12-21 08:42:31 <ne0futur> and you will succeed
 703 2010-12-21 08:43:05 <Kiba> an art project isn't worth ten years
 704 2010-12-21 08:43:07 * ne0futur is building his network for more or less 10 years
 705 2010-12-21 08:43:40 * ne0futur is still poor, but no really free ;)
 706 2010-12-21 08:43:48 <ne0futur> s/no/now/
 707 2010-12-21 08:44:41 <BoBeR> kiba
 708 2010-12-21 08:44:45 <BoBeR> with the latest one
 709 2010-12-21 08:44:49 <BoBeR> fix the neck
 710 2010-12-21 08:44:59 <BoBeR> it seems really creepy
 711 2010-12-21 08:45:04 <BoBeR> make it wider or something
 712 2010-12-21 08:45:34 <Kiba> post them on the forum, or I'll forget
 713 2010-12-21 08:45:48 <Kiba> and all this time, you have not noticed the neck's size?
 714 2010-12-21 08:46:29 <Kiba> anime necks are narrow, ya know
 715 2010-12-21 08:46:46 <Kiba> perhaps mine are too narrow
 716 2010-12-21 08:47:31 * Diablo-D3 goes back to wondering why he is writing this miner
 717 2010-12-21 08:47:35 <Kiba> (there's also the anatomically incorrect eyes and so on)
 718 2010-12-21 08:47:41 <Kiba> because you hate python
 719 2010-12-21 08:48:04 <Kiba> gah
 720 2010-12-21 08:48:41 sgornick has joined
 721 2010-12-21 08:50:14 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
 722 2010-12-21 08:50:15 Grantt has joined
 723 2010-12-21 08:51:46 <Diablo-D3> ;;seen slush
 724 2010-12-21 08:51:47 <gribble> I have not seen slush.
 725 2010-12-21 08:51:52 <Diablo-D3> ;;seen slush_cz
 726 2010-12-21 08:51:52 <gribble> slush_cz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 15 hours, 8 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <slush_cz> davout: Did you switched off miners?
 727 2010-12-21 08:51:58 <Diablo-D3> hrrrm
 728 2010-12-21 08:52:30 <BoBeR> kiba you said you where a hacker
 729 2010-12-21 08:52:33 <BoBeR> in what sence
 730 2010-12-21 08:53:07 <Kiba> I did say that?
 731 2010-12-21 08:53:15 <Kiba> when?
 732 2010-12-21 08:53:19 <Kiba> and where?
 733 2010-12-21 08:53:40 <Kiba> perhaps I have used the word hackers too carelessly
 734 2010-12-21 08:53:55 <Kiba> I can't consider myself a hacker until somebody say I am a hacker. I must be knighted.
 735 2010-12-21 08:54:09 <Kiba> in other words, a hacker gottach say I am a hacker
 736 2010-12-21 08:54:22 <Diablo-D3> you're not a hacker.
 737 2010-12-21 08:55:24 <OneFixt> yet you use "hackerkiba"
 738 2010-12-21 08:55:44 <Kiba> OneFixt: anything wrong with that email address?
 739 2010-12-21 08:56:04 <OneFixt> wrong? not really - maybe BoBeR took that to mean that you called yourself a hacker
 740 2010-12-21 08:56:18 <Kiba> oh no, I am just kiba.
 741 2010-12-21 08:56:36 <OneFixt> an admirer of hackers -nothing wrong with that
 742 2010-12-21 08:56:47 <BoBeR> when we first spoke
 743 2010-12-21 08:56:48 <Kiba> I aspired to be a hacker
 744 2010-12-21 08:57:01 <BoBeR> you called your self a libertarian hacker
 745 2010-12-21 08:57:06 <Kiba> if that's the case, than I have used it too carelessly
 746 2010-12-21 08:57:20 <BoBeR> okay do you hack then
 747 2010-12-21 08:57:46 <Kiba> there are security hackers, hackers who work on the linux kernel, any number of thing
 748 2010-12-21 08:57:54 <OneFixt> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5464925144369700635&hl=en&emb=1#
 749 2010-12-21 08:57:57 <BoBeR> do you do any of those things
 750 2010-12-21 08:58:03 <OneFixt> a very nice old-school documentary of "hacking"
 751 2010-12-21 08:58:17 <Kiba> cracking security is a skill..
 752 2010-12-21 08:58:19 <BoBeR> like what definition do you strive to become
 753 2010-12-21 08:58:57 <Kiba> I want to be a game hacker
 754 2010-12-21 08:59:05 <BoBeR> like WoW hacker
 755 2010-12-21 08:59:08 <Kiba> no
 756 2010-12-21 08:59:12 <BoBeR> cheats and all that
 757 2010-12-21 08:59:17 <BoBeR> or game programmer
 758 2010-12-21 08:59:19 <Kiba> I don't crack security
 759 2010-12-21 08:59:21 <Kiba> I make games
 760 2010-12-21 08:59:41 <BoBeR> so how is that hacking
 761 2010-12-21 08:59:48 <BoBeR> compared to normal programming
 762 2010-12-21 09:00:19 <Kiba> hacking is a skill level, a mind set...
 763 2010-12-21 09:00:50 <OneFixt> sounds like you want to be a "hacker-level" programmer
 764 2010-12-21 09:01:03 <BoBeR> oh i see
 765 2010-12-21 09:01:05 <BoBeR> okay
 766 2010-12-21 09:01:09 <Kiba> I want to create something awesome
 767 2010-12-21 09:01:12 <BoBeR> to me thats not hacking
 768 2010-12-21 09:01:12 <Kiba> something..badass
 769 2010-12-21 09:01:14 <Kiba> like bitcoin
 770 2010-12-21 09:01:22 <BoBeR> hacknig is using thing like they are not suppose to be used
 771 2010-12-21 09:01:34 <Kiba> yeah whatever, that's a rather narrow definition.
 772 2010-12-21 09:01:35 <BoBeR> may it be making go carts using drills for a motor
 773 2010-12-21 09:01:47 <BoBeR> to exploiting a website
 774 2010-12-21 09:01:57 <Kiba> it's also doing something that's not supposed to be possible
 775 2010-12-21 09:01:59 <Kiba> like bitcoin
 776 2010-12-21 09:02:21 <BoBeR> be it creating new currencies to bypassing facial reg software using leds and a hat
 777 2010-12-21 09:02:45 <BoBeR> bitcoin is a hack of mordern currencies but just programming a game is not
 778 2010-12-21 09:02:55 <Kiba> BoBeR: I am just interested in making awesome, solving problems
 779 2010-12-21 09:03:24 <BoBeR> okay then your a programmer a good one at that
 780 2010-12-21 09:03:30 <Kiba> making good games is a skill. There you can also defy convention and do some innovation. That in some way is hacking
 781 2010-12-21 09:03:38 <BoBeR> hackers see the world as oppertunitys
 782 2010-12-21 09:03:49 <BoBeR> no thats being clever
 783 2010-12-21 09:03:57 <Kiba> yeah whatever
 784 2010-12-21 09:04:09 <BoBeR> you cant use the arguement yeah whatever
 785 2010-12-21 09:04:51 <Kiba> that what hackers do, they innovate...no?
 786 2010-12-21 09:05:16 <Kiba> yeah, you just make a clever innovation in text editing. whatever.
 787 2010-12-21 09:05:21 <Kiba> that last statement sound wrong.
 788 2010-12-21 09:05:42 <Kiba> yeah, you just make a clever innovation in XYZ
 789 2010-12-21 09:05:56 <Kiba> I used emacs. Is emacs not a hacker tool?
 790 2010-12-21 09:06:01 angus has quit (Quit: leaving)
 791 2010-12-21 09:06:10 <OneFixt> ...emacs is a text editor
 792 2010-12-21 09:06:14 <BoBeR> anything can be a hacker tool
 793 2010-12-21 09:06:17 <Kiba> and also used by a hacker
 794 2010-12-21 09:06:33 <Kiba> also used by hackers*
 795 2010-12-21 09:06:35 <BoBeR> paperclips are hacker tools when opening locks
 796 2010-12-21 09:06:36 samfisher has joined
 797 2010-12-21 09:06:37 <Kiba> and programmed by hackers
 798 2010-12-21 09:06:40 davout has joined
 799 2010-12-21 09:06:41 <OneFixt> toilets are used by hackers
 800 2010-12-21 09:06:41 <BoBeR> so is duct tape
 801 2010-12-21 09:06:58 <Kiba> so, I would argue that in fact, there is some type of "game hacking"
 802 2010-12-21 09:07:14 <samfisher> hi. what poopled miner do you say i should use on linux? i don't know if my gpu is good enough for the job
 803 2010-12-21 09:07:56 <BoBeR> try them all samfisher
 804 2010-12-21 09:08:11 jav_ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
 805 2010-12-21 09:08:14 <samfisher> all?
 806 2010-12-21 09:08:21 <Kiba> BoBeR: you just have a narrower definition of what a hacker is
 807 2010-12-21 09:08:32 <samfisher> there isn't one that's the best?
 808 2010-12-21 09:08:43 <BoBeR> diffrent ones for diffrent systems
 809 2010-12-21 09:08:46 <BoBeR> try them all
 810 2010-12-21 09:08:49 <BoBeR> pick the fastest
 811 2010-12-21 09:09:25 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r74ac7cc / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
 812 2010-12-21 09:09:25 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Added -g/--getwork to change the number of seconds between getwork
 813 2010-12-21 09:09:25 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: refresh, should help high pool latency issues, default remains 5 - http://bit.ly/eJD6wp
 814 2010-12-21 09:09:38 <OneFixt> unfortunately, to be called a hacker, you must live up to someone else's definition of it
 815 2010-12-21 09:09:56 <Kiba> OneFixt: like ESR's?
 816 2010-12-21 09:09:57 <BoBeR> any other hackers on here
 817 2010-12-21 09:10:06 <Kiba> do you call yourself a hacker?
 818 2010-12-21 09:10:12 <BoBeR> me?
 819 2010-12-21 09:10:28 <BoBeR> i would assume im allowed to use the label now that i have been called it
 820 2010-12-21 09:10:35 <BoBeR> personally i dont like it
 821 2010-12-21 09:10:41 <BoBeR> i hack but i am not a hacker
 822 2010-12-21 09:10:44 <Kiba> I guess not
 823 2010-12-21 09:11:11 <BoBeR> i have been called one
 824 2010-12-21 09:11:21 <BoBeR> if i needed to call my self one i wont feel bad
 825 2010-12-21 09:11:26 <samfisher> BoBeR: can I priv you?
 826 2010-12-21 09:11:34 <BoBeR> but its like stating all anarchists are vegans
 827 2010-12-21 09:11:37 <BoBeR> and all that
 828 2010-12-21 09:11:40 <BoBeR> samfisher, sure
 829 2010-12-21 09:11:42 <Kiba> I don't see a lick of programming out of you, BoBeR
 830 2010-12-21 09:12:01 <BoBeR> i do java php and vb.net
 831 2010-12-21 09:12:13 <Diablo-D3> you're not a hacker, BoBeR
 832 2010-12-21 09:12:17 <BoBeR> im working on a firefox bitcoin plugin
 833 2010-12-21 09:12:21 <BoBeR> Diablo-D3, why not
 834 2010-12-21 09:12:35 <Diablo-D3> you know no real languages.
 835 2010-12-21 09:12:46 <Kiba> I do javascript, ruby, and canvas
 836 2010-12-21 09:12:51 <BoBeR> what java is not real
 837 2010-12-21 09:13:04 <BoBeR> vb.net ill agree is not the best
 838 2010-12-21 09:13:04 <Diablo-D3> ahh, I only saw php and vb
 839 2010-12-21 09:13:13 <Kiba> I hate java
 840 2010-12-21 09:13:14 <Diablo-D3> you know exactly one real language then
 841 2010-12-21 09:13:14 <BoBeR> php is good
 842 2010-12-21 09:13:15 <OneFixt> back in the day, hackers used to walk around with whistles from boxes of cereal...
 843 2010-12-21 09:13:20 <Diablo-D3> php is a pile of shit and needs to die
 844 2010-12-21 09:13:25 <Kiba> php have a bad reputation
 845 2010-12-21 09:13:25 <BoBeR> ouch
 846 2010-12-21 09:13:30 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: no, those are phreakers
 847 2010-12-21 09:13:43 <OneFixt> Diablo-D3: that would be a subset of hacking
 848 2010-12-21 09:14:01 <Diablo-D3> not a subset, more like a related field
 849 2010-12-21 09:14:06 <Kiba> The Dark Art
 850 2010-12-21 09:14:20 * Diablo-D3 salutes captain crunch
 851 2010-12-21 09:14:29 <OneFixt> =)
 852 2010-12-21 09:14:37 <Kiba> BoBeR: I wonder why you know old and shitty language
 853 2010-12-21 09:14:42 <Kiba> and I know new and hip
 854 2010-12-21 09:14:53 <BoBeR> old is tested
 855 2010-12-21 09:14:54 <Kiba> ok, ruby is not that new..it's about as old as BoBeR maybe
 856 2010-12-21 09:14:55 <BoBeR> and works
 857 2010-12-21 09:14:56 <OneFixt> Kiba: please, please, please say that was a joke
 858 2010-12-21 09:15:05 <BoBeR> java is cross platform
 859 2010-12-21 09:15:06 <Kiba> naw
 860 2010-12-21 09:15:22 <BoBeR> vb.net i need for windows tools to sell to skiddies
 861 2010-12-21 09:15:30 <BoBeR> php for web development
 862 2010-12-21 09:15:57 <Kiba> I used rails, a web framework
 863 2010-12-21 09:16:01 <Kiba> ruby is quite nice, I admit
 864 2010-12-21 09:16:03 <Diablo-D3> feh, ruby
 865 2010-12-21 09:16:06 <Kiba> but it's my first language
 866 2010-12-21 09:16:07 <Diablo-D3> what a crappy language
 867 2010-12-21 09:16:12 <Kiba> and Diablo-D3 hate python
 868 2010-12-21 09:16:15 * arcatan votes for Haskell o/
 869 2010-12-21 09:16:24 <Diablo-D3> I hate ruby more than I hate python
 870 2010-12-21 09:16:26 <Kiba> Haskell a tough one
 871 2010-12-21 09:16:30 <OneFixt> it's not the language, it's what you do with it
 872 2010-12-21 09:16:50 <Diablo-D3> heh, if I ever end up needing to program something in a functional language... I wont use haskell
 873 2010-12-21 09:16:53 <OneFixt> yes, some languages are shitty, but you can still get a talented programmer to do something spectacular with them
 874 2010-12-21 09:16:53 <Diablo-D3> I'll just go straight to lisp
 875 2010-12-21 09:17:13 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: yes, but its easy to take a good language and take a mediocre programmer and get something spectacular
 876 2010-12-21 09:17:21 Granttt has joined
 877 2010-12-21 09:17:22 <Kiba> I used too much procedural language, and not enough diversity
 878 2010-12-21 09:17:36 <OneFixt> a mediocre programmer rarely produces anything spectacular no matter in what language
 879 2010-12-21 09:17:47 <Diablo-D3> not true at all, OneFixt
 880 2010-12-21 09:17:59 <OneFixt> depends on the definition of spectacular then
 881 2010-12-21 09:18:33 * Kiba is dutifully working on a multiplayer tetris game
 882 2010-12-21 09:18:47 <Kiba> in canvas and javascript nonetheless
 883 2010-12-21 09:18:48 <OneFixt> Kiba: for bitcoins?
 884 2010-12-21 09:19:00 <Kiba> OneFixt: naw, for greenbacks
 885 2010-12-21 09:19:09 <OneFixt> if it's for money, it will be hacked
 886 2010-12-21 09:19:10 <Kiba> which I will happily convert it into bitcoin
 887 2010-12-21 09:19:19 <OneFixt> that is, if people play for money
 888 2010-12-21 09:19:30 <Kiba> naw, I am doing it on behalf of a client
 889 2010-12-21 09:19:34 <Kiba> freelancing
 890 2010-12-21 09:19:44 <OneFixt> other than that, you can find good examples on PuzzlePirates and OMGPOP of mulitplayer tetris-like games
 891 2010-12-21 09:19:44 <Kiba> which I need to do more of ^^;
 892 2010-12-21 09:20:17 <Kiba> apperantly, I am not a very productive programmer
 893 2010-12-21 09:20:28 <OneFixt> not if you have so many posts =P
 894 2010-12-21 09:20:42 <Kiba> I post like a rabbit
 895 2010-12-21 09:20:47 <OneFixt> you should code like one
 896 2010-12-21 09:20:50 <OneFixt> and read
 897 2010-12-21 09:20:59 <Kiba> I worked on 3 projects at once, OneFixt
 898 2010-12-21 09:21:07 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 899 2010-12-21 09:21:10 <Kiba> context switching is expensive ^^;
 900 2010-12-21 09:21:25 <OneFixt> so focus
 901 2010-12-21 09:21:31 <BoBeR> work non stop
 902 2010-12-21 09:21:36 <BoBeR> get off irc and code
 903 2010-12-21 09:21:38 <Kiba> OneFixt: context switching is expnesive if you switch between many projects
 904 2010-12-21 09:21:45 <Kiba> BoBeR: easy to say
 905 2010-12-21 09:21:50 <BoBeR> i know
 906 2010-12-21 09:21:52 <OneFixt> of course, i'm not saying you should work on many projects
 907 2010-12-21 09:21:52 <Kiba> but I follow a goalset
 908 2010-12-21 09:21:59 <OneFixt> just waste less time
 909 2010-12-21 09:22:03 <Kiba> I alway do X of projects
 910 2010-12-21 09:22:08 <BoBeR> i should be converting your chrome app to firefox
 911 2010-12-21 09:22:16 <Kiba> OneFixt: it's called building discipline
 912 2010-12-21 09:22:17 <BoBeR> im hoping im using git rigth
 913 2010-12-21 09:22:20 <Kiba> I am sure you heard of it
 914 2010-12-21 09:22:27 <BoBeR> i make my first fork
 915 2010-12-21 09:22:33 <Kiba> BoBeR: I just paid for the chrome app
 916 2010-12-21 09:22:35 <OneFixt> is irc arguing part of your discipline?
 917 2010-12-21 09:22:36 <Kiba> I didn't develop it
 918 2010-12-21 09:22:46 <BoBeR> i know
 919 2010-12-21 09:22:50 <BoBeR> but your hosting the git
 920 2010-12-21 09:22:53 <Kiba> OneFixt: discipline isn't built in one day
 921 2010-12-21 09:23:05 <OneFixt> so you're working on it? that actually is admirable
 922 2010-12-21 09:23:10 <Kiba> and I been doing it constistenly
 923 2010-12-21 09:23:18 <Kiba> using soulplaying.com
 924 2010-12-21 09:23:32 <OneFixt> good, then don't be upset if you dont earn much, etc.
 925 2010-12-21 09:23:38 <OneFixt> be glad that you're building that discipline
 926 2010-12-21 09:23:40 <BoBeR> who me?
 927 2010-12-21 09:23:41 <OneFixt> that will pay for itself
 928 2010-12-21 09:23:44 <OneFixt> nah, kiba
 929 2010-12-21 09:23:48 <BoBeR> ah
 930 2010-12-21 09:23:54 <Kiba> like my art ^^;
 931 2010-12-21 09:24:01 <Kiba> it's practically a fourth project
 932 2010-12-21 09:24:11 <OneFixt> any project at all, don't be upset as long as you're growing
 933 2010-12-21 09:24:42 <OneFixt> and remember that growing is the priority, not the success of any particular project or argument
 934 2010-12-21 09:24:53 <Diablo-D3> (from a m0 post on the board) "You use that ugly black thing"
 935 2010-12-21 09:25:03 <Diablo-D3> your mom uses that ugly black thing.
 936 2010-12-21 09:25:06 <Kiba> ugly black thing?
 937 2010-12-21 09:25:26 <BoBeR> im thinking about starting an art project too
 938 2010-12-21 09:25:33 <BoBeR> but on post its
 939 2010-12-21 09:25:39 <BoBeR> small sketches
 940 2010-12-21 09:25:44 <BoBeR> per request
 941 2010-12-21 09:25:49 <samfisher> where I can find the miners?
 942 2010-12-21 09:25:52 <OneFixt> Kiba: so I wish you luck, and, working on my own discipline, am off to sleep
 943 2010-12-21 09:26:05 <Diablo-D3> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0;all
 944 2010-12-21 09:26:17 <Kiba> we need to collect all the miners for the wiki
 945 2010-12-21 09:26:30 <Kiba> I am kinda suprised
 946 2010-12-21 09:26:40 <Kiba> that people can talk about bitcoin in so many X ways
 947 2010-12-21 09:26:58 <Diablo-D3> theres only three miners
 948 2010-12-21 09:27:02 <Kiba> I mean, for god sake...it's just a fricking currency
 949 2010-12-21 09:27:12 <Diablo-D3> they're all linked from the bitcoin pool page
 950 2010-12-21 09:30:10 <MT`AwAy> mh
 951 2010-12-21 09:30:14 <MT`AwAy> my bitcoind segfaults
 952 2010-12-21 09:30:35 <Diablo-D3> nice
 953 2010-12-21 09:30:44 <Kiba> time to go to sleep
 954 2010-12-21 09:30:51 <Kiba> MT`AwAy: better end that email when I wake up!
 955 2010-12-21 09:30:59 <Kiba> s/end/send
 956 2010-12-21 09:31:05 <MT`AwAy> fixed
 957 2010-12-21 09:36:11 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 958 2010-12-21 09:38:27 <BoBeR> http://code.google.com/p/zombiemap/source/browse/
 959 2010-12-21 09:41:24 slush_cz has joined
 960 2010-12-21 09:43:51 <Rhonda> \o/ - grinded my first 50 BTC :)
 961 2010-12-21 09:45:08 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: see new updates.
 962 2010-12-21 09:45:34 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: of what?
 963 2010-12-21 09:45:39 <Diablo-D3> of my miner
 964 2010-12-21 09:45:44 <slush_cz> soon
 965 2010-12-21 09:47:06 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: Great news! It still uses getwork(), right?
 966 2010-12-21 09:47:16 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: but it is ok, this is big improvement
 967 2010-12-21 09:48:37 <Diablo-D3> yes it still uses getwork
 968 2010-12-21 09:49:28 TD_ has joined
 969 2010-12-21 09:51:23 Toadyonps3 has quit (Quit: So if a tree falls on Bill Gates in the forest,would anyone really care?)
 970 2010-12-21 10:01:33 <Keefe> congrats Rhonda! how long were you mining?
 971 2010-12-21 10:05:46 <Rhonda> Keefe: Good question, how do I find out. :)
 972 2010-12-21 10:13:05 <MT`AwAy> the bitcoin map is rebuilding
 973 2010-12-21 10:14:15 <Remmy> I started mining like 6 weeks ago, but no luck yet :(
 974 2010-12-21 10:14:31 <slush_cz> Remmy: ,,pool
 975 2010-12-21 10:14:31 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
 976 2010-12-21 10:14:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: I think with that getwork thread, on pools, my miner will beat m0's hands down
 977 2010-12-21 10:14:56 <slush_cz> Diablo-D3: m0mchil implemented separate thread already
 978 2010-12-21 10:15:00 <slush_cz> during weekend
 979 2010-12-21 10:15:07 <Diablo-D3> bah
 980 2010-12-21 10:15:11 <slush_cz> but good work, both :)
 981 2010-12-21 10:15:50 <Remmy> slush_cz, I take it you get coins pro ratio your calculation input?
 982 2010-12-21 10:16:08 <slush_cz> Remmy: heh?
 983 2010-12-21 10:16:40 TD_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 984 2010-12-21 10:16:49 <slush_cz> Remmy: I divide mined bitcoins to all miners, depends on how much 'shares' they find
 985 2010-12-21 10:16:50 TD_ has joined
 986 2010-12-21 10:16:51 <Remmy> slush_cz, currently I calculate at ~ 6800khash/s... what could I expect from this pool?
 987 2010-12-21 10:17:16 <slush_cz> Remmy: No more bitcoins than you mined in long term. But you will get few cents or bitcoins every day
 988 2010-12-21 10:17:40 <Remmy> slush_cz, what's the "overhead" ?
 989 2010-12-21 10:17:49 <slush_cz> Remmy: I don't think there is any
 990 2010-12-21 10:18:01 <slush_cz> main miners already implemented optimizations for my pool
 991 2010-12-21 10:18:30 <slush_cz> Remmy: with 6800khash, pool will definitely make your equity smooth
 992 2010-12-21 10:18:53 <slush_cz> 'equity curve'
 993 2010-12-21 10:21:39 <Remmy> Ok... I'll look into that, thanks :)
 994 2010-12-21 10:27:43 wump has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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 998 2010-12-21 10:32:08 Keefe_ has joined
 999 2010-12-21 10:33:42 <Keefe_> anyone else just get disconnected from freenode's ssl server?
1000 2010-12-21 10:34:27 <samfisher> Diablo-D3: /quit
1001 2010-12-21 10:34:31 samfisher has quit (Quit: exit error code 434)
1002 2010-12-21 10:34:52 Keefe_ is now known as Keefe
1003 2010-12-21 10:34:57 taiki has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1004 2010-12-21 10:35:02 Keefe has quit (Changing host)
1005 2010-12-21 10:36:08 Keefe has joined
1006 2010-12-21 10:36:16 <Diablo-D3> lol?
1007 2010-12-21 10:37:42 [Noodles] has joined
1008 2010-12-21 10:42:32 <wumpus> Keefe: yes
1009 2010-12-21 10:45:38 <Rhonda> I wonder … what does actually get stored when I do a bitcoind backupwallet - and how can I use the resulting file?
1010 2010-12-21 10:47:12 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
1011 2010-12-21 10:47:12 Grantt has joined
1012 2010-12-21 10:53:43 <Keefe> Rhonda: this might help: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet
1013 2010-12-21 10:59:12 StrangeCharm has joined
1014 2010-12-21 11:02:26 <Rhonda> Keefe: Thanks!
1015 2010-12-21 11:05:17 Granttt has joined
1016 2010-12-21 11:05:24 Granttt has quit (Changing host)
1017 2010-12-21 11:05:24 Granttt has joined
1018 2010-12-21 11:06:45 Shadowolf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1019 2010-12-21 11:07:43 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1020 2010-12-21 11:14:33 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
1021 2010-12-21 11:14:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98710 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 73 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 10 hours, 23 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14335.88378823
1022 2010-12-21 11:17:36 <Amiga4000> the wiki enty of backup wallet is nice. How about a "restore wallet from backup" entry?
1023 2010-12-21 11:17:53 <Amiga4000> nobody wants backup, everybody wants restore.
1024 2010-12-21 11:21:25 Cusipzzz has joined
1025 2010-12-21 11:22:11 <Rhonda> Keefe: Well, not for "how can I use the resulting file".
1026 2010-12-21 11:22:15 <wumpus> just send me your coins I'll back them up for you :)
1027 2010-12-21 11:22:29 <Rhonda> But I figure it's just overwriting wallet.dat with the backup file.
1028 2010-12-21 11:24:10 <Keefe> i don't know myself
1029 2010-12-21 11:29:46 <Rhonda> Amiga4000: Actually a db_dump on .bitcoin/wallet.dat and db_dump on wallet.backup gave the same result.
1030 2010-12-21 11:30:17 <Rhonda> So yes, copying wallet.backup into .bitcoin/wallet.dat seems to be the restore function.
1031 2010-12-21 11:32:59 <dsg> Rhonda: Probably just 'cat <backupfile> | db_load ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat'
1032 2010-12-21 11:33:14 <dsg> (this is untested, and will overwrite your current wallet :)
1033 2010-12-21 11:44:14 <Rhonda> dsg: what's the difference™
1034 2010-12-21 11:48:44 <dsg> Rhonda: My way is what you'd use to restore a wallet backed up with the RPC backupwallet command.
1035 2010-12-21 11:49:46 <dsg> Copying the binary wallet.dat works as well, but only if you restore to a machine with the same CPU architecture, and only reliably if you remember to shutdown bitcoin first.
1036 2010-12-21 11:52:08 <Rhonda> It's not the same CPU architecture, isn't bdb architecture-independent? It's rather the same bdb-Format that counts. :)
1037 2010-12-21 11:52:50 <Rhonda> db_load is also "only reliably if you remember to shutdown bitcoin first."
1038 2010-12-21 11:54:11 <dsg> Dunno about bdb's being architecture independent (I didn't think it was), but I was referring to the backup step and not the restore.
1039 2010-12-21 11:54:21 <dsg> Anyway, doesn't matter, I thought you were asking for directions.
1040 2010-12-21 11:55:30 <Rhonda> Sure, thanks. :)
1041 2010-12-21 11:56:10 <Rhonda> I'll check on my powerpc actually, that's big endian compared to the system that runs the grinder.
1042 2010-12-21 12:04:02 <TD_> unfortunately the way bitcoin uses bdb is to dump data directly out of RAM into it
1043 2010-12-21 12:04:11 <TD_> the official bitcoin client is basically x86 only
1044 2010-12-21 12:04:17 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
1045 2010-12-21 12:04:17 TD_ is now known as TD
1046 2010-12-21 12:04:39 <wumpus> TD: afaik it uses boost::serialize, which is portable
1047 2010-12-21 12:04:39 <TD> so don't try and restore wallets across cpus of different endianness. that will likely lead to problems
1048 2010-12-21 12:04:46 <TD> it doesn't. it uses a custom serialization scheme
1049 2010-12-21 12:04:54 <wumpus> ok
1050 2010-12-21 12:04:58 <TD> i mean it might use boost serialize somewhere. but in the code i've been reading it uses a custom scheme
1051 2010-12-21 12:05:15 btcex has joined
1052 2010-12-21 12:05:18 <TD> it's a pain. the network protocol is the same, some stuff is BE and other stuff is LE. makes implementing it more complicated .....
1053 2010-12-21 12:05:43 <wumpus> it's weird to depend on boost but then hand roll a serializion scheme
1054 2010-12-21 12:05:56 <btcex> hi! Suddenly puzzled problem of generating a checkable (auditable?) random numbers https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1069.0
1055 2010-12-21 12:06:20 StrangeCharm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1056 2010-12-21 12:06:21 <TD> i think it's likely a result of the code evolving over time
1057 2010-12-21 12:06:28 <TD> maybe the boost dependency came later
1058 2010-12-21 12:06:37 <wumpus> yeah, probably
1059 2010-12-21 12:06:47 <TD> i mean i'd never roll my own serialization these days. protocol buffers/thrift solve this problem just fine.
1060 2010-12-21 12:07:00 <TD> but if i didn't know about those frameworks i'd probably do it like satoshi did
1061 2010-12-21 12:07:04 <wumpus> but having something as important as the wallet in cpu dependent format is not good, it's ok for cache files but nothing more
1062 2010-12-21 12:09:40 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1063 2010-12-21 12:11:33 <wumpus> might even be best to use a human readable format such as xml/json for the wallet, or at least tools that can convert from/to such a format
1064 2010-12-21 12:15:22 <TD> i'm probably gonna use a big protobuf for my client
1065 2010-12-21 12:16:58 <wumpus> why protobuf? is speed of parsing so important here?
1066 2010-12-21 12:18:28 mtgox has joined
1067 2010-12-21 12:20:07 <TD> no. it's just a convenient format.
1068 2010-12-21 12:20:12 <TD> why not protobuf?
1069 2010-12-21 12:20:28 <Diablo-D3> why protobuf?
1070 2010-12-21 12:20:42 <Diablo-D3> protobuf is not human readable
1071 2010-12-21 12:21:08 <Diablo-D3> I dont particularly care for it or thrift
1072 2010-12-21 12:26:16 <wumpus> protobuf is cool for network protocols because it's so fast
1073 2010-12-21 12:28:25 <wumpus> but for file format interoperability it'd not be my first choice
1074 2010-12-21 12:30:38 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
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1076 2010-12-21 12:30:47 btcex has quit (Quit: Тают запасы хвойного древостоя!..)
1077 2010-12-21 12:31:12 WonTu has joined
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1079 2010-12-21 12:34:54 <da2ce7> question, can we upgrade gribble so that when we do a ;;bc,calc_alt or something it calculates how long it will take on average, but takes a trendline of the increasing dificulty.
1080 2010-12-21 12:36:05 <tcatm> Yep, if you come up with a good algorithm.
1081 2010-12-21 12:36:32 <da2ce7> ok.
1082 2010-12-21 12:37:32 <da2ce7> how do I obtaim the current algorithm?
1083 2010-12-21 12:37:38 <tcatm> ,,bc,calc
1084 2010-12-21 12:37:39 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1085 2010-12-21 12:38:44 <Amiga4000> hm, m=mchild miner does not run on a winsystem gtx285 setup via RDP.
1086 2010-12-21 12:38:47 <TD> Diablo-D3: the contents of the wallet also isn't human readable :)
1087 2010-12-21 12:39:04 <TD> Diablo-D3: why - it generates objects with convenient APIs so it's easier to work with than parsing xml or json
1088 2010-12-21 12:39:20 <TD> at least that's why i like them
1089 2010-12-21 12:39:38 slush_cz has left ()
1090 2010-12-21 12:39:40 <TD> also i'm just used to the api, so i guess i'm biased in that way :)
1091 2010-12-21 12:43:22 <da2ce7> ;;bc,calc 1000000
1092 2010-12-21 12:43:22 TD_ has joined
1093 2010-12-21 12:43:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 14 hours, 37 minutes, and 2 seconds
1094 2010-12-21 12:45:40 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
1095 2010-12-21 12:45:40 TD_ is now known as TD
1096 2010-12-21 12:46:52 <Rhonda> TD: I know that bitcoin doesn't work on powerpc - just wanted to test wether the dump file would work. :)
1097 2010-12-21 12:48:48 <da2ce7> is there a guide to the syntax of the bot?
1098 2010-12-21 12:48:58 <da2ce7> ;;help
1099 2010-12-21 12:48:59 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1100 2010-12-21 12:49:18 <da2ce7> !facts
1101 2010-12-21 13:02:51 <Amiga4000> ok, like expected. mining via OpenCL just works on local login, not via RDP
1102 2010-12-21 13:05:27 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1103 2010-12-21 13:06:45 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1104 2010-12-21 13:09:40 <Diablo-D3> [07:36:51] <TD> Diablo-D3: the contents of the wallet also isn't human readable :)
1105 2010-12-21 13:09:41 <Diablo-D3> [07:37:09] <TD> Diablo-D3: why - it generates objects with convenient APIs so it's easier to work with than parsing xml or json
1106 2010-12-21 13:09:48 <Diablo-D3> I agree that its not, and it should be
1107 2010-12-21 13:09:55 <Diablo-D3> and no, those APIs are no easier than json and xml ones
1108 2010-12-21 13:10:30 <TD> well, the wallet is sort of inherently non human readable. the contents are a bunch of crypto keys and things. they'll never exactly be "readable"
1109 2010-12-21 13:10:41 <TD> to do anything with them you'd need to write a program anyway
1110 2010-12-21 13:12:42 <TD> besides, protobufs do have a textual representation (admittedly, an odd one)
1111 2010-12-21 13:12:48 <TD> so they can be printed out and parsed if necessary
1112 2010-12-21 13:17:41 <da2ce7> ,,bc,stats
1113 2010-12-21 13:17:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98736 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 47 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 hours, 39 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14419.48659410
1114 2010-12-21 13:19:26 <da2ce7> tcatm, how do I get the code for ;;bc,stats  ... when I tryed ,,bc,stats it didn't print the code.
1115 2010-12-21 13:19:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98737 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 46 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 hours, 30 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14421.85913601
1116 2010-12-21 13:20:06 <da2ce7> ;;bc,help
1117 2010-12-21 13:20:06 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
1118 2010-12-21 13:23:26 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1120 2010-12-21 13:43:24 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r3743727 / (3 files): Added environment variable that fixes Stream SDK 2.2/2.3 CPU use bug - http://bit.ly/h1Zfsp
1121 2010-12-21 13:44:23 <TD> cia 106? hah. doesn't seem so long ago i set up the first cia with micah
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1127 2010-12-21 13:57:24 StrangeCharm has joined
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1129 2010-12-21 14:04:21 <da2ce7> tscam, I've writen it in psudo code... http://pastebin.com/LmkAbrb9  see if you think that it is good....
1130 2010-12-21 14:04:51 <da2ce7> tcatm,  I've writen it in psudo code... http://pastebin.com/LmkAbrb9  see if you think that it is good....
1131 2010-12-21 14:06:40 <da2ce7> it is pritty crude, but should work, I've set the ongoing rate to Moore's law
1132 2010-12-21 14:07:05 <da2ce7> but I'm now thinking that may be too low.
1133 2010-12-21 14:10:04 Daviey has quit (Excess Flood)
1134 2010-12-21 14:10:45 <edcba> you should just extrapolate difficulty with diff(currentblock) and currentdiff
1135 2010-12-21 14:14:07 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,estimate
1136 2010-12-21 14:14:07 <gribble> 14456.76255360
1137 2010-12-21 14:16:13 Daviey has joined
1138 2010-12-21 14:17:03 mtgox has joined
1139 2010-12-21 14:17:14 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r1f796b7 / src/main/resources/DiabloMiner.cl : Leave myself a note about BFI_INT - http://bit.ly/gwjQqZ
1140 2010-12-21 14:19:50 <da2ce7> well sleep, now
1141 2010-12-21 14:20:11 lolcat has joined
1142 2010-12-21 14:20:21 StrangeCharm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1143 2010-12-21 14:20:44 <da2ce7> I expect the rate to decay, fromt the current difficulty extrapolatetion.
1144 2010-12-21 14:22:20 <TD> the pubkey part of a scriptSig, if i hash160 that shouldn't I get the bitcoin address of the creator of the transaction?
1145 2010-12-21 14:25:47 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1146 2010-12-21 14:25:57 lolcat has quit (Changing host)
1147 2010-12-21 14:25:57 lolcat has joined
1148 2010-12-21 14:27:08 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1149 2010-12-21 14:31:31 Granttt has joined
1150 2010-12-21 14:33:25 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1151 2010-12-21 14:35:05 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1152 2010-12-21 14:37:48 Amiga4000 is now known as amiga4000
1153 2010-12-21 14:38:06 int0x27h has joined
1154 2010-12-21 14:39:34 <EvanR-work> greetings bitcoiners
1155 2010-12-21 14:39:34 akem has joined
1156 2010-12-21 14:39:35 akem has quit (Changing host)
1157 2010-12-21 14:39:35 akem has joined
1158 2010-12-21 14:44:18 <tcatm> ,,bc,estimate
1159 2010-12-21 14:44:19 <gribble> 14445.82191711
1160 2010-12-21 14:44:41 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
1161 2010-12-21 14:44:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98750 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 33 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 hours, 39 minutes, and 53 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14445.82191711
1162 2010-12-21 14:49:52 <lfm> !bc
1163 2010-12-21 14:50:00 <lfm> ,,bc
1164 2010-12-21 14:50:01 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1165 2010-12-21 14:50:08 <lfm> ;;bc
1166 2010-12-21 14:50:09 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1167 2010-12-21 14:51:17 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1168 2010-12-21 14:54:04 <TD> hmm
1169 2010-12-21 14:54:15 <TD> it's not possible to look at a transaction by itself and determine both the to and from addresses, right?
1170 2010-12-21 14:54:29 <TD> if you want to know the from address, you have to chain backwards to the previous transaction and look at the referenced outputs
1171 2010-12-21 14:54:50 <MT`AwAy> or hash the public key
1172 2010-12-21 14:56:14 <ArtForz> crappy hole?
1173 2010-12-21 14:56:19 <ArtForz> whoops
1174 2010-12-21 14:58:43 RichardG has joined
1175 2010-12-21 15:01:27 <TD> yeah, i tried that
1176 2010-12-21 15:01:40 <TD> must have been making a mistake as the result did not match up
1177 2010-12-21 15:08:36 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: that was yesterday
1178 2010-12-21 15:08:46 spm_Draget has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1179 2010-12-21 15:09:02 <ArtForz> yea
1180 2010-12-21 15:09:16 <TD> MT`AwAy: could you double check something for me ?
1181 2010-12-21 15:09:22 <TD> i can't see where i'm going wrong with this
1182 2010-12-21 15:09:41 <MT`AwAy> TD: mh?
1183 2010-12-21 15:09:46 <TD> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/05e04c26c12fe408a3c1b71aa7996403f6acad1045252b1c62e055496f4d2cb1
1184 2010-12-21 15:10:01 <TD> in this transaction the sole input has a scriptSig public key of 0414b38f4be3bb9fa0f4f32b74af07152b2f2f630bc02122a491137b6c523e46f18a0d5034418966f93dfc37cc3739ef7b2007213a302b7fba161557f4ad644a1c
1185 2010-12-21 15:10:26 <TD> if i run that through a hash160 i get 94968737ff1406fdea5c4b612169a21acafb5f6c
1186 2010-12-21 15:10:43 <TD> however that result doesn't appear to be correct, as block explorer doesn't know about that hash160
1187 2010-12-21 15:10:47 spm_Draget has joined
1188 2010-12-21 15:10:58 spm_Draget has quit (Client Quit)
1189 2010-12-21 15:11:04 spm_Draget has joined
1190 2010-12-21 15:11:12 <TD> oh, wait. i think i just realized the problem now i explained it :/
1191 2010-12-21 15:11:21 <TD> this is a hash160(sha256()) isn't it
1192 2010-12-21 15:11:56 <TD> gah
1193 2010-12-21 15:12:12 <ArtForz> see bitcointools
1194 2010-12-21 15:12:15 mndrix has joined
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1196 2010-12-21 15:12:16 mndrix has joined
1197 2010-12-21 15:13:06 spm_Draget has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1198 2010-12-21 15:13:35 <TD> yeah
1199 2010-12-21 15:13:48 <TD> i actually implemented this properly in the code, and then forgot to do it in the tests. facepalm.
1200 2010-12-21 15:18:18 spm_Draget has joined
1201 2010-12-21 15:40:04 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1202 2010-12-21 15:40:12 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
1203 2010-12-21 15:40:12 Grantt has joined
1204 2010-12-21 15:45:37 Zarutian has joined
1205 2010-12-21 15:50:47 devon_hillard has joined
1206 2010-12-21 15:51:02 <devon_hillard> Is there a windows binary that uses the GPU?
1207 2010-12-21 15:51:52 theymos has joined
1208 2010-12-21 15:53:10 blablaa has joined
1209 2010-12-21 15:54:19 <MT`AwAy> mh
1210 2010-12-21 15:54:26 <MT`AwAy> TD: read the wiki ;)
1211 2010-12-21 15:54:43 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification#Addresses
1212 2010-12-21 15:54:51 <TD> yeah i did. actually i added to it (well the old one). it's easy to forget about these details
1213 2010-12-21 15:56:02 blablaa has left ()
1214 2010-12-21 16:00:07 Kiba has joined
1215 2010-12-21 16:04:52 <lfm> how many blocks in testnet atm?
1216 2010-12-21 16:05:06 <theymos> 19431
1217 2010-12-21 16:05:12 <lfm> k ty
1218 2010-12-21 16:24:07 fabianhjr has joined
1219 2010-12-21 16:41:11 slush_cz1 has joined
1220 2010-12-21 16:42:33 akem has joined
1221 2010-12-21 16:45:18 <slush_cz1> da2ce7: Congrats to third block found! I believe that you don't find next block for a longer time now :))
1222 2010-12-21 16:48:21 taiki has joined
1223 2010-12-21 16:52:55 <cosurgi> slush_cz1: congrats on great service. I think that trolls stoppped complaining now, right? :)
1224 2010-12-21 16:53:29 * cosurgi reads forums read-only. Didn't register on forums, irc seems to be enough.
1225 2010-12-21 16:53:39 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
1226 2010-12-21 16:54:34 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: I don't think so.They are already talking about micro-scamming and so on.
1227 2010-12-21 16:54:38 WonTu has joined
1228 2010-12-21 16:55:00 WonTu has left ()
1229 2010-12-21 16:55:13 <slush_cz1> I think those talks never stops.
1230 2010-12-21 16:56:50 darrob has quit (Disconnected by services)
1231 2010-12-21 16:56:58 darrob has joined
1232 2010-12-21 16:57:47 <cosurgi> slush_cz1: oh, well. this type of people always appears out of nowwhere.
1233 2010-12-21 16:58:03 <slush_cz1> Kiba: welcome on the board :)
1234 2010-12-21 16:58:34 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: I believe they judge others based on their own minds
1235 2010-12-21 16:59:03 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: So they cannot understand why I not scam them :)
1236 2010-12-21 16:59:17 <cosurgi> slush_cz1: just stay calm, ignore, don't feed the trolls: as usual ;) If you really need to reply to this kind of guy, be thoughtful, short andd reasonable. That always helps :-)
1237 2010-12-21 16:59:25 <cosurgi> heheh. exactly
1238 2010-12-21 17:00:35 <slush_cz1> yes, I responded them until I felt like there is really something to explain. Previous payment system was really confusing for some people.
1239 2010-12-21 17:00:45 <slush_cz1> Not I believe everything is exact and on-time.
1240 2010-12-21 17:01:26 <slush_cz1> Now I believe...
1241 2010-12-21 17:03:05 <cosurgi> yes, now it's good. Maybe you could add info how much reweard I got for each block found, but that's just cosmetics.
1242 2010-12-21 17:03:39 <slush_cz1> Yes, I already have those stats. I will add it to 'block history' stats
1243 2010-12-21 17:03:41 <nanotube> cosurgi: i've suggested the same to slush_cz1 a few days ago already. :) glad to see some extra vote :)
1244 2010-12-21 17:03:50 <cosurgi> :-))
1245 2010-12-21 17:04:07 <slush_cz1> nanotube: I know, I know :)
1246 2010-12-21 17:04:32 <nanotube> slush_cz1: :)
1247 2010-12-21 17:04:44 <cosurgi> btw, easier for those stupid guys to bitch on a forum than on irc. wonder why :)
1248 2010-12-21 17:05:07 <slush_cz1> But I have to solve caching before. Many people are watching stats every few seconds ;)
1249 2010-12-21 17:05:14 <nanotube> heh well we can just be glad they're not here heh
1250 2010-12-21 17:05:37 <cosurgi> really? every few seconds? but constantly, or just for 10 minutes?
1251 2010-12-21 17:05:58 <cosurgi> if constantly then maybe some 'auto-refresh' tag is badly interpreted by their browser, or something?
1252 2010-12-21 17:06:31 gavinandresen has joined
1253 2010-12-21 17:06:31 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: They are also refreshing profile page very often. There is no autorefresh :)
1254 2010-12-21 17:06:45 <devon_hillard> Is there a bitcoin binary for windows that uses GPU acceleration?
1255 2010-12-21 17:06:46 <slush_cz1> They probably like to watch how bitcoins come to them :))
1256 2010-12-21 17:07:09 <slush_cz1> devon_hillard: Yes, m0mchil's and Diablo's miners are working on Win without compiling
1257 2010-12-21 17:07:09 <nanotube> devon_hillard: iirc there are some binaries posted on the forums
1258 2010-12-21 17:07:10 <cosurgi> yes... but I did that at most for 5 minutes. and that was 2 days ago.
1259 2010-12-21 17:07:48 <cosurgi> I recommend Diablos's one. very stable and a little faster (97% GPU capacity instead of 95%)
1260 2010-12-21 17:08:45 <cosurgi> m0mchil's also was unstable on network connections, but iirc he fixed that (?)
1261 2010-12-21 17:09:11 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: I think so
1262 2010-12-21 17:09:35 <slush_cz1> both guys are very nice, they patched miners to work with pool already
1263 2010-12-21 17:09:42 <slush_cz1> to work stable and fast
1264 2010-12-21 17:09:47 <cosurgi> I'm thinking about adding GPU to jgrazik's CPU miner. maybe... I'll ...
1265 2010-12-21 17:09:49 * nanotube wishes he had more computing power...
1266 2010-12-21 17:10:42 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1267 2010-12-21 17:10:50 <cosurgi> it would be a challenge for me to understand OpenCL in C++
1268 2010-12-21 17:10:56 * cosurgi works in C++ usually.
1269 2010-12-21 17:11:02 * Kiba wonders if he is doing work
1270 2010-12-21 17:11:06 <cosurgi> I never used OOOpenCL before in fact.
1271 2010-12-21 17:14:52 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1272 2010-12-21 17:15:17 TD has joined
1273 2010-12-21 17:18:32 <devon_hillard> <slush_cz1> <nanotube> where is bitcoin.conf located on windows and why is it important to set a username and a password?
1274 2010-12-21 17:23:21 maximi89 has joined
1275 2010-12-21 17:24:53 <gavinandresen> devon_hillard:  it is in %APPDATA%/Bitcoin (if I recall correctly, which I probably don't).  It is important to set a username and password because if you don't, you could browse to a web page that had hidden JavaScript that send commands to bitcoin running on your computer to empty your wallet.
1276 2010-12-21 17:25:36 Granttt has joined
1277 2010-12-21 17:27:39 <devon_hillard> how does the Diablo miner work, <gavinandresen>, in relation to bitcoin?
1278 2010-12-21 17:28:18 maximi89 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1279 2010-12-21 17:28:22 <Kiba> it mines for bitcoin?
1280 2010-12-21 17:29:00 <gavinandresen> All of the external miners ask a running bitcoin to give them work to do, and then they crunch away trying to "solve the block".  When they think they've found the answer, they submit it to the running bitcoin, or, if they don't find an answer, they ask for more work.
1281 2010-12-21 17:29:18 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1282 2010-12-21 17:29:54 <gavinandresen> (they way they ask for work is HTTP JSON-RPC, if you wanna know the geeky details)
1283 2010-12-21 17:37:06 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: Are you skilled in C++?
1284 2010-12-21 17:37:31 <devon_hillard> running bigcoind I get an error message that mingw...dll is missing
1285 2010-12-21 17:37:35 <devon_hillard> do I have to install mingw?
1286 2010-12-21 17:39:02 <devon_hillard> s/bigcoind/bitcoind/
1287 2010-12-21 17:39:32 <slush_cz1> slush_cz1: I'm looking to some guy with C++ experience to make (I hope simple) patch to official client to enable 'common' people mine remote miner. They should simply fill URL, username and password to options.
1288 2010-12-21 17:39:44 <slush_cz1> eh, writing to myself :-D
1289 2010-12-21 17:39:52 <slush_cz1> it was addressed to cosurgi
1290 2010-12-21 17:39:55 <Kiba> rofl
1291 2010-12-21 17:41:31 maximi89 has joined
1292 2010-12-21 17:43:17 <ArtForz> ;;bc,stats
1293 2010-12-21 17:43:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98778 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 5 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 42 minutes and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14495.50362480
1294 2010-12-21 17:44:02 <Kiba> so this pool minign operation
1295 2010-12-21 17:44:06 <Kiba> is running at 6 GH?
1296 2010-12-21 17:45:42 <slush_cz1> ;;bc,poolstats
1297 2010-12-21 17:45:43 <gribble> {"active_workers": 96, "hashes_ps": 5997606888, "shares": 9303, "round_started": "2010-12-21 15:52:44"}
1298 2010-12-21 17:45:53 <slush_cz1> almost. But yes, it was over for a moment
1299 2010-12-21 17:46:58 <Kiba> ;;bc,calc 6000000
1300 2010-12-21 17:46:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 6000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 12252.03471156 , is 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 10 seconds
1301 2010-12-21 17:47:30 <devon_hillard> ;;help
1302 2010-12-21 17:47:30 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1303 2010-12-21 17:48:05 <Kiba> so it's 5% of the network hashrate
1304 2010-12-21 17:48:07 <Kiba> impressive
1305 2010-12-21 17:48:28 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1306 2010-12-21 17:57:02 <cosurgi> slush_cz1: what do you need to know?
1307 2010-12-21 17:57:24 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: I'm looking to some guy with C++ experience to make (I hope simple) patch to official client to enable 'common' people mine remote miner. They should simply fill URL, username and password to options.
1308 2010-12-21 17:58:08 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: I hope that this patch can be accepted in upstream, because installing standalone miners is barrier for many common people
1309 2010-12-21 17:58:17 <cosurgi> I will have a look.
1310 2010-12-21 17:58:30 <slush_cz1> cosurgi: It would be great
1311 2010-12-21 17:58:30 <cosurgi> but tomorrow. today I have work to do :)
1312 2010-12-21 17:58:55 <slush_cz1> of course
1313 2010-12-21 18:00:05 <cosurgi> also, tomorrow I want to have a look at hashing implementation :)
1314 2010-12-21 18:00:15 <cosurgi> by Diablo and by jgrazik
1315 2010-12-21 18:01:38 <nanotube> slush_cz1: if the standalone miners have binaries, they're not hard for 'common people'... just download and fire up the binary. no?
1316 2010-12-21 18:02:34 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Yes, and play with command line
1317 2010-12-21 18:03:17 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1318 2010-12-21 18:03:18 <slush_cz1> I know it is annoying to make platform independent, low-dependency GUI, but filling three fields (once I have bitcoin installed) is much comfortable
1319 2010-12-21 18:03:22 <omglolbbq> that would be very nice
1320 2010-12-21 18:03:29 <nanotube> hmm
1321 2010-12-21 18:03:29 <ArtForz> because creating a simple gui wrapper for them is so fucking hard
1322 2010-12-21 18:03:49 * cosurgi love CLI
1323 2010-12-21 18:03:59 <theymos> Are transaction scripts totally big-endian?
1324 2010-12-21 18:04:19 <ArtForz> yes, but CLI scares you average windozer
1325 2010-12-21 18:04:24 <omglolbbq> cosurgi,  average users don't xD
1326 2010-12-21 18:04:25 Asphodelia has joined
1327 2010-12-21 18:04:35 <cosurgi> giu requires vnc, while CLI can just use console :)
1328 2010-12-21 18:05:35 <cosurgi> those windozer guys arent even aware of their local "vnc" which is so fucking heavyweight to whole machine ;)
1329 2010-12-21 18:06:25 <ArtForz> only problem is with dependencies for GPU miners
1330 2010-12-21 18:06:47 <ArtForz> m0s needs python, diablos needs java, both need weird driver and SDK versions
1331 2010-12-21 18:06:54 <cosurgi> k. back top work.
1332 2010-12-21 18:07:02 <cosurgi> *to
1333 2010-12-21 18:08:04 <tcatm> Is there an official binary that includes getblock RPC yet?
1334 2010-12-21 18:08:25 <ArtForz> I dont think so
1335 2010-12-21 18:09:14 fabianhjr_ has joined
1336 2010-12-21 18:09:33 * tcatm tries to crosscompile one.
1337 2010-12-21 18:10:21 * slush_cz1 love CLI too
1338 2010-12-21 18:10:26 <slush_cz1> But average user not
1339 2010-12-21 18:10:49 devon_hillard has joined
1340 2010-12-21 18:11:07 <devon_hillard> ok, I think I got the Diablo miner to work
1341 2010-12-21 18:11:11 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1342 2010-12-21 18:11:20 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
1343 2010-12-21 18:11:40 DerrikeG1 has joined
1344 2010-12-21 18:11:48 <devon_hillard> I get a ticker showing: "Connection refused" but also: 59000 khashes/s
1345 2010-12-21 18:12:20 bitanarchy has joined
1346 2010-12-21 18:12:20 bitanarchy has quit (Changing host)
1347 2010-12-21 18:12:20 bitanarchy has joined
1348 2010-12-21 18:12:36 <tcatm> My blockchain parser is funny to watch. It's throwing missing prevblock exceptions for a few minutes now.
1349 2010-12-21 18:13:05 fabianhjr_ has joined
1350 2010-12-21 18:13:17 fabianhjr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1351 2010-12-21 18:13:18 <devon_hillard> [12/21/10 8:10:43 PM] ERROR: Can't connect to Bitcoin: Connection refused: connect
1352 2010-12-21 18:13:32 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
1353 2010-12-21 18:13:48 genjix has joined
1354 2010-12-21 18:13:51 <genjix> hey
1355 2010-12-21 18:13:53 <genjix> sup
1356 2010-12-21 18:15:10 <slush_cz1> devon_hillard: Did you started bitcoind with -server parameter?
1357 2010-12-21 18:15:26 TD_ has joined
1358 2010-12-21 18:15:57 <bitanarchy> How was usury used by the state and the church to abuse people? Because, I assume, that was the reason the doctrine was supported by the church...
1359 2010-12-21 18:16:19 <Kiba> the chruch doesn't support usury
1360 2010-12-21 18:16:48 <bitanarchy> I mean the churches, anti-usury doctrine
1361 2010-12-21 18:17:10 <bitanarchy> usury = charging interest
1362 2010-12-21 18:17:17 <Kiba> right
1363 2010-12-21 18:17:28 <Kiba> I think it was some intrepretation of the bible
1364 2010-12-21 18:17:36 <bitanarchy> How was the anti-usury doctrine used by the state and the church to abuse people? Because, I assume, that was the reason the doctrine was supported by the church...
1365 2010-12-21 18:17:53 <Kiba> they had to invent all sort of excuses to make usury acceptable
1366 2010-12-21 18:18:06 <Kiba> they knew it was nonsense
1367 2010-12-21 18:18:28 <bitanarchy> Ok, but I assume that priests advocate certain idea's if they benefit them and the state (with which they colaborate)
1368 2010-12-21 18:19:06 <devon_hillard> <slush_cz1> ok, "bitcoin server starting"
1369 2010-12-21 18:19:36 <Kiba> bitanarchy: some priests, not all
1370 2010-12-21 18:19:48 <Kiba> they are not alway some backwater idiots after all
1371 2010-12-21 18:24:52 <devon_hillard> seeing the message "bitcoin server starting" and no other message means the bitcoin server has started?
1372 2010-12-21 18:25:49 Granttt has quit (Disconnected by services)
1373 2010-12-21 18:25:50 Grantt has joined
1374 2010-12-21 18:26:43 <MT`AwAy> devon_hillard: try running: bitcoind getinfo
1375 2010-12-21 18:26:55 <devon_hillard> <slush_cz1> running bitcoind with no switch
1376 2010-12-21 18:27:41 <devon_hillard> [12/21/10 8:22:09 PM] Started
1377 2010-12-21 18:27:41 <devon_hillard> [12/21/10 8:22:12 PM] Added Redwood
1378 2010-12-21 18:27:42 <devon_hillard>  (#1) (5 CU, local work size of 256)
1379 2010-12-21 18:27:42 <devon_hillard> 59706 khash/sec
1380 2010-12-21 18:28:08 <ArtForz> 5570?
1381 2010-12-21 18:28:15 <BoBeR> hai
1382 2010-12-21 18:28:24 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1383 2010-12-21 18:28:38 <devon_hillard> ArtForz, yes, ATI HD 5570 with base voltages
1384 2010-12-21 18:29:23 xelister has joined
1385 2010-12-21 18:29:28 <xelister> http://wikileaks.ch/Video.html?jhgjj
1386 2010-12-21 18:29:47 <xelister> they must had read this channel when making this vid lol
1387 2010-12-21 18:29:58 <Kiba> someday
1388 2010-12-21 18:30:11 <Kiba> Satoshi Nakamoto is going to be the person of the year in Time Magazine
1389 2010-12-21 18:30:29 darrob has joined
1390 2010-12-21 18:30:48 <devon_hillard> <MT`AwAy> http://pastebin.com/WYZwbvGc
1391 2010-12-21 18:31:01 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1392 2010-12-21 18:31:20 <xelister> lol belrusconi
1393 2010-12-21 18:31:30 <xelister> btw, prostitution still illegal in it?
1394 2010-12-21 18:31:32 <xelister> .it
1395 2010-12-21 18:31:43 <DerrikeG1> slush_cz1: When the pooled server finally reaches my threshold, will it send everything that is over that amount (including those fractions of bitcoins)
1396 2010-12-21 18:31:52 <devon_hillard> temperature 63 degrees, activity 99%, fan speed 22%
1397 2010-12-21 18:32:14 <devon_hillard> ;;help
1398 2010-12-21 18:32:15 <Kiba> xelister: lot of men hire prostitute but they don't have sex with them...
1399 2010-12-21 18:32:15 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1400 2010-12-21 18:32:26 <devon_hillard> ;;bc
1401 2010-12-21 18:32:26 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1402 2010-12-21 18:32:29 <devon_hillard> ;;bc;help
1403 2010-12-21 18:32:30 <gribble> Error: "bc;help" is not a valid command.
1404 2010-12-21 18:32:33 <devon_hillard> ;bc;help
1405 2010-12-21 18:32:47 <devon_hillard> !facts
1406 2010-12-21 18:34:29 rlifchitz has quit (Quit: "I never worry about action, but only about inaction" (W. Churchill))
1407 2010-12-21 18:34:36 <sgornick> ;;bc,help
1408 2010-12-21 18:34:36 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, and Alias bc,totalbc
1409 2010-12-21 18:34:42 <xelister> Kiba: say what? you mean metaphorly?
1410 2010-12-21 18:34:55 <Kiba> for real, man
1411 2010-12-21 18:35:10 <Kiba> prositution is no longer about having sex in some back alley
1412 2010-12-21 18:35:23 <RichardG> xelister: I remembered of a thing when reading logs about you saying something about pickaxes and mining
1413 2010-12-21 18:35:34 <RichardG> why not mining on a PICAXE (microcontroller, google is your friend)
1414 2010-12-21 18:35:39 <sgornick> ;;bc,stats
1415 2010-12-21 18:35:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98783 | Current Difficulty: 12252.03471156 | Next Difficulty At Block: 98783 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 14484.16236122
1416 2010-12-21 18:36:21 <sgornick> ;;bc,stats
1417 2010-12-21 18:36:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98784 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 2015 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 11 hours, 57 minutes, and 29 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 57936.64944490
1418 2010-12-21 18:36:24 <genjix> i prostituted myself to an older woman once
1419 2010-12-21 18:36:44 <sgornick> there we go, 14484
1420 2010-12-21 18:37:02 <xelister> Kiba: well, then about what?
1421 2010-12-21 18:37:13 <Kiba> prositution is evolving
1422 2010-12-21 18:37:14 <Kiba> duh
1423 2010-12-21 18:37:15 <xelister> (besides backalley -> nice appartment)
1424 2010-12-21 18:37:20 <xelister> yeah obviously its evolving
1425 2010-12-21 18:37:23 <xelister> nice appartment
1426 2010-12-21 18:37:24 <xelister> yahuzi
1427 2010-12-21 18:37:36 <genjix> jajaja
1428 2010-12-21 18:37:39 <xelister> speaking of Diablo-D3, say hi to your sister o/
1429 2010-12-21 18:37:42 <xelister> meh he is no there.
1430 2010-12-21 18:37:57 <xelister> Kiba: we need to repeat this in around 6-8 hours
1431 2010-12-21 18:38:07 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1432 2010-12-21 18:38:09 <Kiba> ?
1433 2010-12-21 18:38:12 <sgornick> nice jump in the estimate, ..., one of those things where you need to throw away the first result?
1434 2010-12-21 18:38:15 <xelister> <_<
1435 2010-12-21 18:39:22 <xelister> speaking of woot videos (like http://wikileaks.ch/Video.html?jhgjj) where was that economic video that was pated here (rap music ;)?
1436 2010-12-21 18:39:42 <theymos> The block after the retarget came very fast. The estimate assumes that every block after that will come with the same interval.
1437 2010-12-21 18:39:44 devon_hillard_ has joined
1438 2010-12-21 18:39:59 <genjix> this is the only video you'll ever need: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
1439 2010-12-21 18:40:00 devon_hillard has quit (Disconnected by services)
1440 2010-12-21 18:40:15 devon_hillard_ is now known as devon_hillard
1441 2010-12-21 18:40:30 <genjix> i live my life according to the truth revealed to me through that video.
1442 2010-12-21 18:40:38 <genjix> from prophet sagan (pbuh)
1443 2010-12-21 18:40:47 <sgornick> theymos: oh, that explains it.  Thanks!
1444 2010-12-21 18:41:01 <xelister> ah, here it is ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
1445 2010-12-21 18:41:05 <Kiba> battle between!!!!
1446 2010-12-21 18:41:10 <Kiba> F. A. Hayek
1447 2010-12-21 18:41:14 <Kiba> and Keynes
1448 2010-12-21 18:42:07 <devon_hillard> what is the command for calculating estimated block completion time?
1449 2010-12-21 18:42:21 <TD_> theymos: i'm trying to understand simplified payment verification, could you help explain to me? the paper says "he can't check the transaction for himself, but by linking it to a place in the chain, he can see that the network node has accepted it"
1450 2010-12-21 18:42:29 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
1451 2010-12-21 18:42:29 TD_ is now known as TD
1452 2010-12-21 18:42:59 <TD> i'm unclear on how you link an arbitrary transaction to a particular block without having a copy of the bodies to scan through and index
1453 2010-12-21 18:43:49 <TD> if I get an inv with a new transaction that claims to be sending coins to me, i need to verify the tx the inputs are connected to, to ensure that person really has the ability to send me money and is not just making it up
1454 2010-12-21 18:43:56 midnightmagic has joined
1455 2010-12-21 18:44:05 <TD> but at that point i have only a tx hash. nothing that links it to a block.
1456 2010-12-21 18:45:01 rlifchitz has joined
1457 2010-12-21 18:45:02 rlifchitz has quit (Changing host)
1458 2010-12-21 18:45:02 rlifchitz has joined
1459 2010-12-21 18:45:20 <theymos> TD_: The transactions in each block is organized into a hash (Merkle) tree. The block header contains the top hash of this tree. Given the block headers, the transaction to verify, and the hashes of the transaction's "siblings" in that block's hash tree, you can get the number of confirmations for that transaction safely.
1460 2010-12-21 18:45:52 <theymos> TD: You don't need to verify inputs. Just find the confirmations for the transaction to you. The network will verify the inputs.
1461 2010-12-21 18:47:30 <theymos> I believe at least early versions of client-only mode will downoad entire blocks and then extract the entire Merkle trees for each block. Then you just scan these hashes to find the right block. A future ultra-lightweight client would need to be told this information by the sender.
1462 2010-12-21 18:47:51 <TD> i see. that's what i was wondering - it's not fully implemented yet
1463 2010-12-21 18:48:06 <theymos> Client mode is operational, I think, if you enable fClient.
1464 2010-12-21 18:48:08 <TD> currently if I receive a transaction, I basically must wait until it's been accepted into a block
1465 2010-12-21 18:48:19 Asphodelia has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1466 2010-12-21 18:48:20 <TD> otherwise the tx could be entirely fake and i'd never know
1467 2010-12-21 18:49:21 <theymos> Right. You can't trust transactions with 0 confirmations in client mode at all. Anyone who needs to trust these transactions would have to run a full node.
1468 2010-12-21 18:49:31 <TD> hmm
1469 2010-12-21 18:50:07 <theymos> In particular, even though you could find the inputs, you can't verify that they've not been double-spent.
1470 2010-12-21 18:51:04 <TD> you could find the inputs .... assuming you downloaded the full blocks and then stored the merkle trees
1471 2010-12-21 18:51:17 Asphodelia has joined
1472 2010-12-21 18:51:18 <TD> if you only download the headers, your only option is to wait for the 10 minutes and trust the network
1473 2010-12-21 18:51:44 <theymos> Right.
1474 2010-12-21 18:52:09 <theymos> You need to do something special if you just download headers, though, because otherwise you won't be able to detect transactions to yourself.
1475 2010-12-21 18:52:09 <TD> or possibly to have some kind of in between, in which you rely on a third party service like the block explorer. then you could say, "select block_hash where tx_hash = <abc>" and then do a getdata for that block specifically
1476 2010-12-21 18:52:16 <TD> yes
1477 2010-12-21 18:52:21 <Sherpa> Firefox 4.0 Beta 8 is nice
1478 2010-12-21 18:52:23 <TD> well
1479 2010-12-21 18:52:35 <TD> you'd get an inv containing the transaction eventually? or is inv propagation not really that reliable
1480 2010-12-21 18:52:39 <TD> i guess it's not actually guaranteed is it
1481 2010-12-21 18:52:46 <Sherpa> http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/products/download.html?product=firefox-4.0b8&os=win&lang=en-US
1482 2010-12-21 18:52:55 <TD> also that assumes you are always connected
1483 2010-12-21 18:53:16 <theymos> TD: The inv doesn't tell you that the transaction is for you. It's just a hash.
1484 2010-12-21 18:53:34 <TD> well, assuming you do a getdata when you get an inv
1485 2010-12-21 18:53:45 <TD> in other words if you are a half-way client
1486 2010-12-21 18:53:59 <TD> storing only the headers, but downloading fresh blocks as they are generated
1487 2010-12-21 18:54:00 <theymos> If you do that, you're downloading all the block data. Just download blocks.
1488 2010-12-21 18:54:58 <theymos> Enabling fClient does exactly that. You download full blocks, but then throw away full block bodies.
1489 2010-12-21 18:55:05 <TD> i see
1490 2010-12-21 18:55:58 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1491 2010-12-21 18:55:59 <TD> i'm working on a client implementation for android phones. it's not impossible to download full blocks and index them as the official client does, but as nobody will be generating blocks on a phone i'd much rather do SPV
1492 2010-12-21 18:56:22 <TD> and ideally, i'd like to show a transaction as confirmed to a somewhat useful level within seconds of a transaction being made.
1493 2010-12-21 18:56:35 <TD> obviously the gold standard is waiting for it to appear in a block
1494 2010-12-21 18:56:54 <TD> but checking that the transaction inputs are valid seems like a reasonable compromise
1495 2010-12-21 18:57:18 <TD> so it seems i have several options
1496 2010-12-21 18:57:48 <TD> 1) store only the block headers on flash. cannot really show a received transaction until the next block is found, worst case, roughly ten minutes give or take a few. not a great user experience.
1497 2010-12-21 18:57:57 Granttt has joined
1498 2010-12-21 18:57:59 <xelister> genjix: quite cool
1499 2010-12-21 18:58:08 <genjix> =)
1500 2010-12-21 18:58:10 <TD> 2) store a merkle tree of each block but not the tx bodies. then i can download the inputs when a tx is received
1501 2010-12-21 18:58:49 <TD> 3) store only block headers, and rely on a third party blockexplorer style service that handles the indexing and body storage. request a tx hash -> block hash/body lookup from the third party server when necessary
1502 2010-12-21 18:59:21 <TD> of these (3) is the best experience for the user in terms of not eating lots of flash storage and having fast response times, but it introduces a new point of failure
1503 2010-12-21 18:59:26 <theymos> TD: You can request transactions from the network with getdata.
1504 2010-12-21 18:59:41 <theymos> So request the inputs and all of their siblings to verify.
1505 2010-12-21 18:59:51 <Sherpa> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:2.0b8) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/4.0b8 ]
1506 2010-12-21 19:00:30 <TD> how do I know the hashes of the sibling transactions?
1507 2010-12-21 19:01:01 <TD> a transaction only contains the inputs and outputs (and a couple of extra ints)
1508 2010-12-21 19:02:11 <TD> or do you mean, add something to the protocol to allow retrieval of sibling hashes?
1509 2010-12-21 19:02:12 <theymos> It's knowable from looking at the block Merkle tree. You'd need to get all Merkle trees.
1510 2010-12-21 19:02:15 Grantt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1511 2010-12-21 19:02:32 <TD> yeah, so that's option 2.
1512 2010-12-21 19:02:35 <TD> it's probably not too bad
1513 2010-12-21 19:02:43 <theymos> Does getheaders return Merkle trees?
1514 2010-12-21 19:02:53 <TD> hmm, not sure. i haven't looked yet
1515 2010-12-21 19:03:01 * TD rummages
1516 2010-12-21 19:03:34 rlifchitz has joined
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1518 2010-12-21 19:03:34 rlifchitz has joined
1519 2010-12-21 19:03:44 <theymos> Doesn't look like it.
1520 2010-12-21 19:03:45 <TD> no
1521 2010-12-21 19:04:17 <TD> the client indexs blocks by tx hash, right? i mean that's stored in blkindex.dat file
1522 2010-12-21 19:04:17 <gavinandresen> theymos:  See https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/blockheaders   ... for latest work on fClient.
1523 2010-12-21 19:04:19 <TD> i think
1524 2010-12-21 19:04:39 <gavinandresen> theymos: and see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/7    for Satoshi's thinking....
1525 2010-12-21 19:04:45 <TD> so it's potentially a simple patch to make the official client support tx hash -> block hash lookup
1526 2010-12-21 19:06:25 <TD> gavinandresen: how do you think this should be done? given the constraint of a client that will never, ever want to generate blocks, do you think the best implementation would be to have the official client be able to do a tx hash -> block hash lookup with a new message ..... then thin clients can verify transactions immediately by just requesting the blocks they need until they're satisfied they are deep enough in the chain
1527 2010-12-21 19:06:45 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1528 2010-12-21 19:06:56 ghost12 has joined
1529 2010-12-21 19:07:02 <gavinandresen> Lightweight clients start with 0 wallet transactions, so they don't care about any transactions older than that.
1530 2010-12-21 19:07:04 AAA_awright has joined
1531 2010-12-21 19:07:08 <gavinandresen> (and 0 receiving addresses)
1532 2010-12-21 19:07:22 <gavinandresen> So they can download all the old block headers only.
1533 2010-12-21 19:07:22 <theymos> TD: Why even verify inputs at all?
1534 2010-12-21 19:07:53 <TD> otherwise you have no assurance at all the transfer was real.
1535 2010-12-21 19:08:05 <gavinandresen> Once they generate a receiving address, they're getting blocks from the network, and can ignore any that don't involve their receiving address.
1536 2010-12-21 19:08:05 <theymos> An attacker can still double-spend inputs endlessly without you being able to detect it.
1537 2010-12-21 19:08:46 <joe_1> bitcoin price skyrocketing today
1538 2010-12-21 19:09:12 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
1539 2010-12-21 19:09:12 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.2691,"low":0.251,"vol":1457,"buy":0.2521,"sell":0.2669,"last":0.2669}}
1540 2010-12-21 19:09:28 <genjix> fantastic... i just sold most of my btc yesterday!
1541 2010-12-21 19:09:34 <genjix> !!!!! rage.
1542 2010-12-21 19:09:39 <genjix> :p
1543 2010-12-21 19:09:51 <theymos> gavinandresen: What do you think of providing "block digests" to clients that contain the first few bytes of all hash160s in a block?
1544 2010-12-21 19:10:01 <gavinandresen> I haven't thought deeply about how to finish the block-headers-only code....  it'll either involve asking for previous transactions OR ignoring transactions you see on the network that haven't made it into a block.
1545 2010-12-21 19:10:28 <joe_1> it's up 4% no big deal
1546 2010-12-21 19:10:48 <theymos> It's pointless to ask for previous transactions. An attacker can easily send you double-spent transactions that you won't be able to verify.
1547 2010-12-21 19:10:53 <gavinandresen> theymos:  my gut reaction is that is the wrong place to try to optimize.
1548 2010-12-21 19:11:08 <nanotube> genjix: quick, buy them back and make the price go up even more! :)
1549 2010-12-21 19:11:48 <genjix> i am looking to buy again :) but only once the price drops back down again...
1550 2010-12-21 19:11:57 <gavinandresen> ... it'll either involve asking for previous blocks that contain dependent transactions .... OR ...
1551 2010-12-21 19:12:52 <gavinandresen> Well, really, asking for the relevant bits of the merkle tree.  But like I said, I haven't thought deeply about it.  And it'll probably just be easier to ignore 0/unconfirmed receives.
1552 2010-12-21 19:12:53 <joe_1> it may not drop back down again. bitcoin is probably going to hit .50 in 2011
1553 2010-12-21 19:13:19 <nanotube> genjix: feel free to try to short sell. heh
1554 2010-12-21 19:13:39 <TD> so it seems to be about risk management. if i care that a transaction may be double spent, i have to wait the ten minutes
1555 2010-12-21 19:13:40 <nanotube> joe_1: yea it may, it may not... predicting the future is hard. :)
1556 2010-12-21 19:13:50 <TD> once i receive a transaction, even if i have no block headers, i just wait
1557 2010-12-21 19:14:05 <genjix> i sold because i was making a good margin on sales
1558 2010-12-21 19:14:10 <TD> if i want to know it wasn't double spent immediately, and i have no block bodies, i'd have to download the entire block chain starting from the earliest input
1559 2010-12-21 19:14:10 <nanotube> TD: yes... just like with regular client now, only more so. :)
1560 2010-12-21 19:14:18 <genjix> but this jump is much bigger...
1561 2010-12-21 19:15:02 <gavinandresen> afk for a while
1562 2010-12-21 19:15:19 <TD> either that, OR rely on some trusted indexing service
1563 2010-12-21 19:15:32 <TD> that weakens the p2p nature of bitcoin in return for, basically, a lower latency UI
1564 2010-12-21 19:15:37 <TD> might be a tradeoff worth making
1565 2010-12-21 19:16:54 <joe_1> do we really need a lightweight client
1566 2010-12-21 19:17:04 <DerrikeG1> Exercise
1567 2010-12-21 19:17:16 <nanotube> TD: if you want lower latency, you could always just go for instant tx using mybitcoin, or mtgox. since those are done outside of the chain, using internal accounting.
1568 2010-12-21 19:17:42 <Sherpa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/blockheaders/irc.cpp
1569 2010-12-21 19:17:44 rlifchitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1570 2010-12-21 19:17:49 <theymos> Maybe the best solution in the end will be creating some sort of overlay network specifically for alerting clients of their own transactions (and releated stuff).
1571 2010-12-21 19:18:03 <joe_1> bitcoin is just a clearing house.
1572 2010-12-21 19:18:10 MacRohard has joined
1573 2010-12-21 19:18:10 <joe_1> regular people won't use it
1574 2010-12-21 19:18:12 <Sherpa> Does the IRC backend have to be Freenode or LFNet ?
1575 2010-12-21 19:18:20 rlifchitz has joined
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1577 2010-12-21 19:18:21 rlifchitz has joined
1578 2010-12-21 19:18:43 <theymos> Sherpa: Bitcoin uses LFNet.
1579 2010-12-21 19:18:48 <Sherpa> I seen
1580 2010-12-21 19:18:54 <TD> i might take a look at how much space would be required to maintain a txhash->blockhash index on the phone
1581 2010-12-21 19:19:03 <Sherpa> Is that to say all bitcoin clients are on LFNet ?
1582 2010-12-21 19:19:07 <TD> that'd be the simplest solution. download all the bodies but only store the hashes
1583 2010-12-21 19:19:14 <tcatm> What's the fastest way to check consistency of the block chain?
1584 2010-12-21 19:19:17 <TD> copies of the production block chain can be included in the initial app download
1585 2010-12-21 19:19:19 <DerrikeG1> Side note: Oblivion runs better when I run CPU miner in the background, I don't understand it.
1586 2010-12-21 19:20:08 <theymos> Sherpa: All up-to-date clients do. It was changed a long time ago.
1587 2010-12-21 19:20:17 ghost12 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1588 2010-12-21 19:20:25 <Sherpa> I see
1589 2010-12-21 19:20:54 <Sherpa> I'm wondering...if that were changed and all clients in a mining pool used that client
1590 2010-12-21 19:20:59 <Sherpa> what would happen
1591 2010-12-21 19:21:32 <theymos> Miners in a mining pool rely on the "hub" for network stuff. They don't need to connect to IRC.
1592 2010-12-21 19:21:50 <Sherpa> What is the IRC Connection used for besides IP lookup ?
1593 2010-12-21 19:22:03 <theymos> It's only used for gathering peers.
1594 2010-12-21 19:22:11 <theymos> No one really *needs* to connect to IRC. There is a backup bootstrap facility.
1595 2010-12-21 19:22:14 <Sherpa> i see
1596 2010-12-21 19:22:25 <Sherpa> interesting :P
1597 2010-12-21 19:24:10 <BoBeR> well you need atleast one peer
1598 2010-12-21 19:24:19 <BoBeR> so on a fresh install you need the IRC
1599 2010-12-21 19:24:39 <BoBeR> until you get a peer then use them to get more and remember a list of IPs
1600 2010-12-21 19:24:55 <theymos> No; there's a backup mechanism used when you can't connect to IRC. You'll connect to one of several hardcoded seednodes.
1601 2010-12-21 19:25:23 <BoBeR> oh i didnt know about them
1602 2010-12-21 19:25:27 <BoBeR> who are they?
1603 2010-12-21 19:26:08 <BoBeR> also cant we find the node that satoshi runs
1604 2010-12-21 19:26:50 <theymos> Here are the currently-online seednodes: http://pastebin.com/d8tvBcSm
1605 2010-12-21 19:27:58 <theymos> Only 21 are up out of 230, so it does take a while to connect without IRC.
1606 2010-12-21 19:30:05 kisom_de1 is now known as kisom_dev
1607 2010-12-21 19:31:20 WonTu has joined
1608 2010-12-21 19:31:42 WonTu has left ()
1609 2010-12-21 19:34:44 <BoBeR> well all you need is one
1610 2010-12-21 19:34:49 <BoBeR> and then peer exchange
1611 2010-12-21 19:35:28 <TD> after thinking a bit more, it seems the minimal amount of stuff you can store and still be able to quickly verify that your opposite is not double spending nor faking transactions is an index of tx hash -> block hash, and a few bits to mark off the transaction outputs.
1612 2010-12-21 19:35:57 <TD> now as you traverse the block chain, you store the mapping of tx hash to block hash. when you see an output of a transaction being consumed, you find that transaction in your list and flip the relevant marker bit for that output
1613 2010-12-21 19:36:42 <TD> when you receive a transaction, you can now find the block hashes containing the input transactions and verify your opposite does in fact have the cash they're trying to spend. and you can verify the output isn't being double spent by consulting the bits.
1614 2010-12-21 19:36:47 <TD> the downside is you do have to download the full bodies
1615 2010-12-21 19:37:02 <TD> however, the tx hash+bits -> block hash mapping can be bundled with the app, and refreshed every so often
1616 2010-12-21 19:37:33 <TD> so the download size is limited. and the app can wake up every night when the phone is charging to catch up with the chain, if it didn't already do so during the day.
1617 2010-12-21 19:38:20 <theymos> That's the storage-saving solution mentioned in the paper. You need to keep unspent transactions so you have the script to verify transactions that spend them. You can't forget blocks that are too new unless you want to re-download blocks to deal with every reorganize.
1618 2010-12-21 19:39:30 <TD> that's probably ok though. i mean you don't have to keep the tx bodies necessarily, as long as you're willing to [re]download the inputs when you receive a transaction and want to verify it
1619 2010-12-21 19:39:40 <TD> basically it's a storage space vs bandwidth vs confidence tradeoff
1620 2010-12-21 19:40:55 <gavinandresen> TD: you want to create a mobile bitcoin that is fully connected to the bitcoin network?  That seems like the wrong approach to me...
1621 2010-12-21 19:41:16 <TD> not continuously
1622 2010-12-21 19:41:49 <genjix> bitcoinvegas pre-pre-alpha 0.00000001: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqwvVPfarP4
1623 2010-12-21 19:41:55 <TD> android phones have a thing called "c2dm". it means you can send messages to the phone via googles servers, and the phone will wake up, find the right app to handle the message, and route it appropriately
1624 2010-12-21 19:42:04 <TD> google will store the message for you if the phone is offline too
1625 2010-12-21 19:42:09 <gavinandresen> Hopefully bitcoin transactions will become a firehose of data-- even connecting transiently to that firehose wirelessly seems like the wrong approach.
1626 2010-12-21 19:42:33 <TD> so i was thinking there could be some relay node that knows the addresses of mobile clients, and can then send these wakeup messages when a transaction of interest is spotted
1627 2010-12-21 19:42:54 <TD> the client on the phone then knows it's received a transaction and can download the blocks needed to verify it
1628 2010-12-21 19:43:08 <gavinandresen> TD: that seems like the correct approach.  So why not have the relay nodes decide whether or not outgoing transactions are valid?
1629 2010-12-21 19:44:00 <TD> that's a reasonable optimization. if you rely on that entirely though, the relay node becomes a single point of failure. it can lie to the phone and tell it whatever it wants. i'm not confident enough in my sysadmin abilities to build a completely bulletproof relay node
1630 2010-12-21 19:44:34 <TD> my interest in using a phone is twofold
1631 2010-12-21 19:44:36 <gavinandresen> If you can't keep the relay node safe I think you're screwed no matter what.
1632 2010-12-21 19:44:45 <TD> 1)  security, i trust android to not get viruses more than i trust any desktop OS
1633 2010-12-21 19:45:00 <TD> 2) making it as easy to transfer bitcoins as physical cash
1634 2010-12-21 19:45:06 <TD> well, the relay node is just an optimization
1635 2010-12-21 19:45:13 genjix has left ()
1636 2010-12-21 19:45:15 <TD> theoretically the phone could wake up every 10 minutes, connect, grab the latest block
1637 2010-12-21 19:45:20 <TD> that'd suck a lot of battery power though
1638 2010-12-21 19:46:03 <theymos> nanotube: Gribble should use http://blockexplorer.com/q/eta for timetonext. It looks at the last 1000 blocks instead of "blocks since last retarget", so it's more accurate. When you get close to the retarget, you can use http://blockexplorer.com/q/eta/50 instead to get an even more accurate number (looking at the last 50 blocks instead of 1000).
1639 2010-12-21 19:46:03 <TD> the C2DM messaging is carefully optimized to drain as little power as possible, I don't think it's easy to beat it with a home grown scheme. better to have some external relay exploit the built-in backchannel
1640 2010-12-21 19:46:19 <TD> but the relay doesn't have to be trusted. it's just a battery saving device.
1641 2010-12-21 19:46:38 jav_ has joined
1642 2010-12-21 19:47:02 <gavinandresen> If it sits between the real bitcoin network and the phone then it must be trusted.  Unless the phone has some other way of getting the bitcoin reallity (maybe fetching data from blockexplorer....)
1643 2010-12-21 19:47:37 <TD> well, connecting to the network! the relay node sends a message to the phone saying "hey wake up, you received some money". this makes the bitcoin app on the phone start up and download some blocks
1644 2010-12-21 19:48:07 <TD> the tx hash can be included in the message i guess
1645 2010-12-21 19:48:21 <gavinandresen> Download from where?  I think you should assume that the transaction traffic on the bitcoin network won't fit into a phone's 4G connection....
1646 2010-12-21 19:48:28 <TD> so it can catch up to the head of the block chain and then inv the tx hash. now it has everything it needs to verify by itself that it did indeed receive a transaction
1647 2010-12-21 19:48:34 <TD> why not?
1648 2010-12-21 19:48:46 <TD> 3G connections are easily capable of downloading some blocks relatively quickly
1649 2010-12-21 19:48:56 <gavinandresen> If bitcoin is successful, then there will be thousands of transactions per second.
1650 2010-12-21 19:48:59 <TD> if the phone syncs every night (likely via wifi) then the worst case is it has to download maybe ~140 blocks
1651 2010-12-21 19:49:01 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1652 2010-12-21 19:49:41 <gavinandresen> Again, download from where?  If it connects to a bitcoin node it will immediately be flooded with traffic.
1653 2010-12-21 19:49:53 <TD> well, ok. let's think about scalability.
1654 2010-12-21 19:50:07 <TD> LTE/4G connections are as good as wifi, pretty much. especially if picocells roll out
1655 2010-12-21 19:50:15 <TD> which is probably more likely than bitcoin taking over the world :)
1656 2010-12-21 19:50:25 <TD> there are a couple of issues
1657 2010-12-21 19:50:34 <TD> one is the size of the block chain you need to download, and how fast you can do that
1658 2010-12-21 19:50:44 <TD> the other is being flooded with p2p traffic, invs and addrs and the like
1659 2010-12-21 19:51:09 <TD> fixing the latter shouldn't be hard. maybe a new services flag to say "i do not care about relay traffic, i just want to interrogate you"
1660 2010-12-21 19:51:47 Auctus has joined
1661 2010-12-21 19:52:17 <TD> the former shouldn't be too terrible. by the time blocks are routinely hitting the limit of 500kb, downloading 140 of them would be a 70mb transfer
1662 2010-12-21 19:52:30 <TD> that's a lot by todays standards, but we don't have such huge blocks today
1663 2010-12-21 19:52:59 <TD> by the time we do, everyone will be on 4G connections
1664 2010-12-21 19:53:25 <gavinandresen> I should have taken a networking class in college....   although I don't think they were talking much about p2p back then.
1665 2010-12-21 19:53:27 <Sherpa> If i wanted to connect to the BitCoin RPC from IRC how would i go about that ?
1666 2010-12-21 19:54:06 <theymos> Sherpa: Bitcoin doesn't support that feature. Maybe there are some third-party tools that could do it.
1667 2010-12-21 19:54:13 <Sherpa> I'll write it
1668 2010-12-21 19:54:19 <Sherpa> I just need a starting point
1669 2010-12-21 19:54:20 <TD> the good news is we have quite a bit of space to explore time/space/confidence tradeoffs. we can eliminate the need for processing the block chain entirely if we trust some bulletproof third party
1670 2010-12-21 19:54:37 <tcatm> Sherpa: You could use a python based IRC bot. JSON-RPC with python is really easy.
1671 2010-12-21 19:54:38 <TD> and there are a few other points in between
1672 2010-12-21 19:54:39 <gavinandresen> I suppose query-only nodes wouldn't be broadcast as potential peers.  I wonder if doing that would lead to ONLY miners accepting incoming connections, everybody else just setting the 'query-only' service flag....
1673 2010-12-21 19:54:44 <Auctus> If bitcoin used some form of computation that couldnt be done much faster on a GPU, it'd be more interesting to newbies, and generally more popular, I think. If it takes 8 months to generate 50 coins on a normal computer and 2 days on a bunch of graphics cards, then the only people who bother generating will be people with arrays of cards. Which means the only people who use bitcoin will be people with arrays of cards. Limits the m
1674 2010-12-21 19:54:44 <Auctus> arket. What do you all think?
1675 2010-12-21 19:54:56 <Sherpa> hmmm
1676 2010-12-21 19:55:01 <TD> well, there's no real downside to relaying
1677 2010-12-21 19:55:12 <TD> if you're on a desktop/laptop machine anyway
1678 2010-12-21 19:55:22 <gavinandresen> TD: there's always bandwidth costs.
1679 2010-12-21 19:55:24 <TD> so as long as the official client doesn't offer "no relaying" as a gui option it should be fine
1680 2010-12-21 19:55:57 <tcatm> Auctus: Then the race would would be about faster CPUs. Doesn't make a big difference.
1681 2010-12-21 19:56:10 <TD> bitcoins network traffic is really lightweight. unless you're on a modem that shouldn't be an issue
1682 2010-12-21 19:56:13 <ArtForz> and it makes botnets even more attractive
1683 2010-12-21 19:56:21 <TD> and if you're on a modem, you probably aren't that interested in futuristic internet cash anyway :)
1684 2010-12-21 19:56:37 <Auctus> tcatm, yeah but it'd be like a car vs. a sports car, rather than a car vs. a fighter jet
1685 2010-12-21 19:57:16 <TD> Auctus: creation of "free cash" is sort of a side effect ...... the goal of the network should be to maximize Ghashes/sec by whatever means are available.
1686 2010-12-21 19:57:21 <[Noodles]> get a fighter jet if you wanna fly, take the bus if you can't afford a car
1687 2010-12-21 19:57:31 <TD> Auctus: there's no point in having bitcoins if the thing which makes them useful is weak and can be easily overpowered
1688 2010-12-21 19:58:04 <TD> long term the coin generation will just be an interesting quirk, most users will buy their coins on the currency markets or obtain them via trade. same as any other currency today.
1689 2010-12-21 19:58:25 <Auctus> TD: that makes sense.
1690 2010-12-21 19:58:26 <Sherpa> Jayrock is a modest and an open source (LGPL) implementation of JSON and JSON-RPC for the Microsoft .NET Framework
1691 2010-12-21 19:58:35 <Sherpa> I could write a small app
1692 2010-12-21 19:58:41 <Sherpa> that could talk to a bot
1693 2010-12-21 19:58:42 <Sherpa> :)
1694 2010-12-21 19:59:06 <Sherpa> or i could just make the small app a bot in itself...
1695 2010-12-21 20:00:17 <TD> Auctus: FWIW when bitcoin was new, and the block difficulty was 1 (the easiest possible) i generated a bunch of coins
1696 2010-12-21 20:00:25 <TD> Auctus: but there was nothing to do with them, so i threw them away.
1697 2010-12-21 20:00:40 <TD> bigger network + harder difficulty > easy coin generation + tiny network
1698 2010-12-21 20:03:57 <tcatm> Sherpa: What are you going to use that bot for? Making the RPCs available on IRC isn't a good idea.
1699 2010-12-21 20:05:26 <Sherpa> Trader Bot
1700 2010-12-21 20:05:44 <Sherpa> It will be quite some time before it actually makes any transactions
1701 2010-12-21 20:09:17 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1702 2010-12-21 20:11:22 <slush_cz1> DerrikeG1: When reward reaches threshold, everything on account will be send to you up to 2 decimal place. So if you will have 5.12345 bitcoins, there will left 0.00345 bitcoins
1703 2010-12-21 20:11:55 <DerrikeG1> slush_cz1: Ah, I see. Thank you for clearing that up. :)
1704 2010-12-21 20:15:25 darrob has joined
1705 2010-12-21 20:16:14 akem has joined
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1708 2010-12-21 20:28:54 Myckel has joined
1709 2010-12-21 20:28:54 <nanotube> theymos: cool, i'll do that. though that would bring the next difficulty estimate (which is based on 'blocks since last adjustment', i presume), out of sync with the time to next diff...
1710 2010-12-21 20:30:06 genjix has joined
1711 2010-12-21 20:30:17 <genjix> anyone want to buy BTC?
1712 2010-12-21 20:30:34 <nanotube> depends on price
1713 2010-12-21 20:30:44 <genjix> 219.23 for $60 on pokerstars
1714 2010-12-21 20:31:14 <genjix> that's a good price considering it climbed only since yestrday
1715 2010-12-21 20:31:25 <genjix> from 4 btc / $1 to 3.8 btc / $1 today.
1716 2010-12-21 20:31:26 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
1717 2010-12-21 20:31:26 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.268,"low":0.251,"vol":1412,"buy":0.2521,"sell":0.2669,"last":0.2669}}
1718 2010-12-21 20:31:38 <nanotube> ;;math calc 60/219.13
1719 2010-12-21 20:31:38 <gribble> 0.273810067083
1720 2010-12-21 20:32:06 <theymos> nanotube: Estimate is using the "time to last retarget" way. I can only use the /q/eta way if I'm using BBE data, which is delayed. I don't want a delayed estimate.
1721 2010-12-21 20:32:19 <genjix> ;;math calc 0.2669*219.13
1722 2010-12-21 20:32:20 <gribble> 58.485797
1723 2010-12-21 20:32:57 <genjix> the price there is $58.50.. im selling for $60
1724 2010-12-21 20:33:26 <nanotube> well, try posting your offer on -otc... iirc there were people interested in dealing with psusd
1725 2010-12-21 20:33:57 <genjix> doublec: $60 for my 219.23 btc?
1726 2010-12-21 20:34:43 <genjix> im away for a while so i need to liquidise my bitcoins
1727 2010-12-21 20:36:22 <genjix> OneFixt: ?
1728 2010-12-21 20:36:27 <nanotube> theymos: hmm, is an eta based on last 1000 blocks even accurate? since say, right now, most of the 1000 blocks were generated at 12k difficulty, while now it's 14k? so it's a significant underestimate?
1729 2010-12-21 20:36:57 <genjix> FreeMoney: ?
1730 2010-12-21 20:37:27 <FreeMoney> here
1731 2010-12-21 20:37:40 <genjix> want to buy my btc?
1732 2010-12-21 20:37:55 <genjix> $60 for 219.23... ship know to you, ok?
1733 2010-12-21 20:38:00 <genjix> now
1734 2010-12-21 20:39:23 <FreeMoney> a little high imo
1735 2010-12-21 20:39:28 riage has joined
1736 2010-12-21 20:39:33 <genjix> ?
1737 2010-12-21 20:39:33 <FreeMoney> $55?
1738 2010-12-21 20:39:39 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
1739 2010-12-21 20:39:40 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.268,"low":0.251,"vol":1412,"buy":0.2521,"sell":0.2669,"last":0.2669}}
1740 2010-12-21 20:39:41 <theymos> nanotube: You're right -- I didn't think about that. You could set the "blocks to look back" parameter to be blocks since last retarget, and then max this number out at 500-1000 blocks.
1741 2010-12-21 20:40:15 <genjix> it was 4 btc / $1 yesterday. now it's 3.8 btc / $1. at current prices it's $58.5, whereas im selling for $60
1742 2010-12-21 20:40:38 <omglolbbq> is it more likely that bitcoin will succeed as it is right now? or more likely a system very much alike, or maybe built upon, will become mainstream?
1743 2010-12-21 20:40:57 <genjix> (im selling at a low because im away for a while)
1744 2010-12-21 20:42:36 <wumpus> omglolbbq: no one knows
1745 2010-12-21 20:43:25 <Kiba> omglolbbq: we don't know
1746 2010-12-21 20:43:34 <omglolbbq> wumpus, im sure we have some economic/market experts in our midst that have ideas on this
1747 2010-12-21 20:44:30 <wumpus> you'd need someone with a crystal ball to know that
1748 2010-12-21 20:44:38 <wumpus> it
1749 2010-12-21 20:44:51 cdecker has joined
1750 2010-12-21 20:45:05 <wumpus> it's like asking what the gold price will be in 5 years
1751 2010-12-21 20:45:15 <cdecker> Hi all
1752 2010-12-21 20:45:21 <Asphodelia> Hi cdecker.
1753 2010-12-21 20:45:29 <cdecker> I'm having a small question for all the network guys
1754 2010-12-21 20:45:50 <omglolbbq> well if google were to introduce a system like bitcoin, the entire world would probably use it within a year
1755 2010-12-21 20:46:01 <cdecker> I'm trying to implement the protocol and it's quite annoying that the protocol version is always incremented with the client
1756 2010-12-21 20:46:14 <cdecker> So here I am again with a change I cannot understand
1757 2010-12-21 20:46:45 <cdecker> How is this realized: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_Specification#addr
1758 2010-12-21 20:46:53 <wumpus> google already has a payment system
1759 2010-12-21 20:46:54 <cdecker> Is there timestamp, really?
1760 2010-12-21 20:47:11 <FreeMoney> ;;bc, mtgox
1761 2010-12-21 20:47:12 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
1762 2010-12-21 20:47:14 Jackass4D has joined
1763 2010-12-21 20:47:24 <FreeMoney> ;;bc,mtgox
1764 2010-12-21 20:47:25 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.268,"low":0.251,"vol":2802,"buy":0.252,"sell":0.2697,"last":0.267}}
1765 2010-12-21 20:47:45 <wumpus> but it's likely there will be bitcoin "competitors"
1766 2010-12-21 20:47:45 <omglolbbq> wumpus, i know, im just saying that posting about bitcoins on some blogs wont make it happen, you need a marketing plan and money to invest in advertising and make people accept it, big companies
1767 2010-12-21 20:47:55 <Jackass4D> is bitcoin even safe?
1768 2010-12-21 20:48:10 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: bitcoin is opensource project, not a company
1769 2010-12-21 20:48:12 <Jackass4D> can it be trusted
1770 2010-12-21 20:48:16 <cdecker> It is safe as in "we haven't found the weakness yet"
1771 2010-12-21 20:48:27 <Jackass4D> can it be trusted
1772 2010-12-21 20:48:30 <Jackass4D> too scarry
1773 2010-12-21 20:48:40 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: But you can take your own $1.000.000 and make worldwide campaign on your own :)
1774 2010-12-21 20:48:41 <cdecker> And since quite a few eyes took a look at it I'd say it's quite save
1775 2010-12-21 20:48:42 <wumpus> a lot of people in the bitcoin community would rather not even want the big companies
1776 2010-12-21 20:49:08 <wumpus> are dollars safe? 
1777 2010-12-21 20:49:19 <wumpus> is gold safe?
1778 2010-12-21 20:49:42 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: But Bitcoin is so interesting project that people talk about it more and more even without 1$ spent on ads
1779 2010-12-21 20:49:42 <omglolbbq> lol slush, the point wasnt realy on spending big cash on advertising, but maybe things would work if people talk to companies, get them interrested
1780 2010-12-21 20:50:04 <omglolbbq> i hope ;)
1781 2010-12-21 20:50:05 <Kiba> why do we need big companies?
1782 2010-12-21 20:50:05 <wumpus> well, go ahead
1783 2010-12-21 20:50:11 <Kiba> big companies are just along for the ride
1784 2010-12-21 20:50:12 <wumpus> talk to people about it
1785 2010-12-21 20:50:23 albatross has joined
1786 2010-12-21 20:50:23 <Kiba> it will get adopted by hip companies
1787 2010-12-21 20:50:26 <omglolbbq> kiba, imagine if ebay accepts bitcoins in general
1788 2010-12-21 20:50:28 <Kiba> not beaucractic companies
1789 2010-12-21 20:50:39 <Kiba> omglolbbq: dude, ebay wouldn't accept bitcoins.
1790 2010-12-21 20:50:42 <Kiba> paypal..ya know
1791 2010-12-21 20:50:45 <omglolbbq> not that it ever will, they 'd kill themselves
1792 2010-12-21 20:50:47 <Kiba> ebay owns paypal
1793 2010-12-21 20:50:52 <omglolbbq> i know
1794 2010-12-21 20:50:57 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: It is egg and chicken problem. Company will not invest to bitcoin until it see any significant market behind. And people wait if there will be any killer application of BTC
1795 2010-12-21 20:51:11 <Kiba> killer app?
1796 2010-12-21 20:51:12 <Kiba> well
1797 2010-12-21 20:51:13 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: But yes, I think bitcoin is on rise
1798 2010-12-21 20:51:18 <Kiba> bitcoin is taking off
1799 2010-12-21 20:51:25 <Kiba> killer app are just icing on cakes
1800 2010-12-21 20:51:32 <wumpus> I think bitcoin will grow slowly, it currently has more advantages to small scale trade than to big companies
1801 2010-12-21 20:51:52 <Zarutian> slush_cz1: so a pregnant chicken must be somehow come into existance?
1802 2010-12-21 20:51:54 <spm_Draget> Needs to be a little bit more accesible (easier gui, easier to understand websites) imho
1803 2010-12-21 20:52:00 <omglolbbq> maybe im just impatient
1804 2010-12-21 20:52:09 <slush_cz1> Mainstream services like ebay or paypal will probably never use bitcoin until it become some national currency :))
1805 2010-12-21 20:52:27 <wumpus> spm_Draget: agreed
1806 2010-12-21 20:52:40 <wumpus> it especially needs more services that accept it
1807 2010-12-21 20:52:42 <Kiba> a confederation of seasteaders decide to adopt bitcoin as their official currency!
1808 2010-12-21 20:52:55 <omglolbbq> a lot of people i try to explain to how bitcoins work, they are like, so who will benefit off this? isn't this illegal to just create money, blabla, very hard to explain
1809 2010-12-21 20:53:01 genjix has left ()
1810 2010-12-21 20:53:05 <slush_cz1> spm_Draget: There are lot of things to do. Bitcoin is still beta. But I trust it as payment processor right now
1811 2010-12-21 20:53:26 <Kiba> I sell art for bitcoin!
1812 2010-12-21 20:53:35 <spm_Draget> As soon as I have time, I will try a few tries at that 'killapp' :-P
1813 2010-12-21 20:53:47 <spm_Draget> *give it
1814 2010-12-21 20:53:47 <albatross> server=true in the config file no longer works? when did it stop?
1815 2010-12-21 20:54:16 <Kiba> time for exercise
1816 2010-12-21 20:54:51 <slush_cz1> many people ask me if 1) is it legal 2) is there any interesting services which can be paid only by bitcoins.
1817 2010-12-21 20:55:08 <ArtForz> albatross: since 0.3.17
1818 2010-12-21 20:55:11 <ArtForz> use =1
1819 2010-12-21 20:55:28 <Jackass4D> i mean by safe
1820 2010-12-21 20:55:32 <slush_cz1> My response is usually 1) no, it is not legal in my country 2) Still nothing for common people, but it is going better
1821 2010-12-21 20:55:35 <albatross> artforz:thanks
1822 2010-12-21 20:55:39 <omglolbbq> slush, it doesn't realy matter if they accept bitcoin exclusively i think, but just accepting amongst others would  be great
1823 2010-12-21 20:55:40 <Jackass4D> is that can it be made
1824 2010-12-21 20:55:44 Diablo-D3 has joined
1825 2010-12-21 20:55:51 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: of course
1826 2010-12-21 20:55:52 <Jackass4D> bye indivuals
1827 2010-12-21 20:55:57 bitanarchy_ has joined
1828 2010-12-21 20:56:04 <Jackass4D> it can be made by indivuals
1829 2010-12-21 20:56:12 <Jackass4D> fraud it
1830 2010-12-21 20:56:18 <Jackass4D> something like that
1831 2010-12-21 20:56:22 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: see the latest change on my miner?
1832 2010-12-21 20:56:39 <nanotube> Jackass4D: no, can't create coins out of thin air. read about the block chain
1833 2010-12-21 20:56:45 <slush_cz1> omglolbbq: But there is still barrier in obtaining bitcoins (every USD/BTC exchange ask for %). And when you can pay directly in USD, there is no reason to buy BTC
1834 2010-12-21 20:56:56 bitanarchy_ has quit (Client Quit)
1835 2010-12-21 20:57:01 <Jackass4D> nanotube: I mean it can be fraud right?
1836 2010-12-21 20:57:05 <Jackass4D> is it fraud proof
1837 2010-12-21 20:57:07 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Yes, I tried it before 10 minutes
1838 2010-12-21 20:57:17 <Kiba> Jackass4D: human beings are not fraud proof
1839 2010-12-21 20:57:21 <Jackass4D> there must be a whole, some hackers might find a hole
1840 2010-12-21 20:57:24 <wumpus> dollars are created out of thin air, actually with bitcoin there are guarantees (max amount, max growth)
1841 2010-12-21 20:57:31 <Jackass4D> and privacy will roam like helll
1842 2010-12-21 20:57:33 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: finally, no more 100% cpu usage on 2.2 and 2.3 using an undocumented environment variable
1843 2010-12-21 20:57:36 <omglolbbq> slush, as long as that % is less then paypal or alike take
1844 2010-12-21 20:57:51 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: except... they're slower.
1845 2010-12-21 20:57:51 <Jackass4D> piracy
1846 2010-12-21 20:57:54 <Jackass4D> i mean
1847 2010-12-21 20:57:54 <nanotube> Jackass4D: there's no guarantee that there are no holes... only that it seems nobody has found one yet.
1848 2010-12-21 20:57:54 <omglolbbq> slush, also probably when bitcoins become generaly accepted people will just exchange hand to hand
1849 2010-12-21 20:57:58 bitanarchy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1850 2010-12-21 20:58:15 <Kiba> Jackass4D: piracy will bring heat on bitcoin
1851 2010-12-21 20:58:18 <nanotube> slush_cz1: any currency exchange takes a percent fee
1852 2010-12-21 20:58:25 <Kiba> I suggest buying from artists who accept bitcoin
1853 2010-12-21 20:58:33 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Looks like it is working. I was little nervouse because it 'booted' longer than usual (<90% of GPU for long time). It is usual?
1854 2010-12-21 20:58:41 <Kiba> and allow you to copy and share it as much as you want
1855 2010-12-21 20:59:01 <Jackass4D> i suggest bitcoin should work hand in hand with the banks...to make it a standard if thats where this going
1856 2010-12-21 20:59:13 <Kiba> why would the banks work with us
1857 2010-12-21 20:59:17 <Kiba> they see us as competitors
1858 2010-12-21 20:59:19 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Of course. But when you compare USD-BTC-service and USD-service and service accept both USD and BTC AND you don't have BTC already, there is simply no economic reason.
1859 2010-12-21 20:59:23 <wumpus> with bitcoin you don't need banks
1860 2010-12-21 20:59:28 <wumpus> everyone is his own bank
1861 2010-12-21 20:59:30 <wumpus> that's a good thing
1862 2010-12-21 20:59:38 <nanotube> slush_cz1: true... but a lot of services offer discounts for using btc. :)
1863 2010-12-21 20:59:38 <wumpus> banks messed up enough 
1864 2010-12-21 20:59:46 <slush_cz1> nanotube: So I'm talking about 'killer app', something what cannot be done with common payment processors (and still is legal :-D)
1865 2010-12-21 20:59:47 <omglolbbq> Jackass4D, the point is to get the currency back to the people, away from the banks
1866 2010-12-21 21:00:03 <nanotube> slush_cz1: micropayments are a popular suggestion.
1867 2010-12-21 21:00:17 <slush_cz1> nanotube: You know I'm big fan of BTC. But I'm talking about mum and so
1868 2010-12-21 21:00:36 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1869 2010-12-21 21:00:38 <Kiba> you need local bitcoin dealers
1870 2010-12-21 21:00:38 <slush_cz1> nanotube: definitely
1871 2010-12-21 21:00:50 <slush_cz1> Kiba: I'M a local dealer :-D
1872 2010-12-21 21:00:53 <wumpus> slush_cz1: unless you're paid in bitcoin for work
1873 2010-12-21 21:01:03 <Kiba> target teenagers
1874 2010-12-21 21:01:04 <Kiba> instead
1875 2010-12-21 21:01:07 <wumpus> which currently is unlikely, but yeah
1876 2010-12-21 21:01:08 <newsham> hmm.. one week until block 10k.
1877 2010-12-21 21:01:16 <Kiba> if you have a virtual world, you can build a virtual economy
1878 2010-12-21 21:01:31 <Kiba> and eventually teenagers will find that they can make money
1879 2010-12-21 21:01:50 <Kiba> then when they don't like the virtual world anymore, they can move on to another one with money they earned in that place
1880 2010-12-21 21:01:57 <wumpus> I can see things like international remote work being paid in bitcoin
1881 2010-12-21 21:01:59 <Kiba> eventually, they want to be paid with bitcoin
1882 2010-12-21 21:02:30 <newsham> is anyone planning to celebrate bitcoin block 10k?
1883 2010-12-21 21:02:40 <slush_cz1> I'm still waiting to worldwide suppport of bitcoinexchange (it is service for selling BTC for Visa, right? It is down now)
1884 2010-12-21 21:02:44 <Jackass4D> are these explain clearly on the site...it should be very very clearly
1885 2010-12-21 21:02:50 <Jackass4D> since this is serious shit
1886 2010-12-21 21:03:25 <wumpus> Jackass4D: I don't believe the creator thinks it's ready for prime time yet
1887 2010-12-21 21:03:35 <nanotube> yes, there's a lot of stuff on the faq and wiki about how stuff works, Jackass4D
1888 2010-12-21 21:03:47 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
1889 2010-12-21 21:03:47 <gribble> {"active_workers": 113, "hashes_ps": 5549910560, "shares": 23965, "round_started": "2010-12-21 15:52:44"}
1890 2010-12-21 21:03:48 <Kiba> slush_cz1: wrong site
1891 2010-12-21 21:03:53 <tcatm> slush_cz1: bitcoinexchange.com is using EUR bankwire (and SMS)
1892 2010-12-21 21:03:59 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
1893 2010-12-21 21:04:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98796 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 2003 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 38 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13152.11406313
1894 2010-12-21 21:04:03 <Kiba> bitcoingateway I think
1895 2010-12-21 21:04:08 <wumpus> but there are sites like bitcoinme which try to explain bitcoin in 'normal' words
1896 2010-12-21 21:04:10 <slush_cz1> Kiba: What's the correct URL?
1897 2010-12-21 21:04:13 StrangeCharm has joined
1898 2010-12-21 21:04:36 <nanotube> slush_cz1: for buying bitcoin with credit card, it's bitcoingateway.com
1899 2010-12-21 21:04:48 * slush_cz1 feels bad because has already translated 90% bitcoinme to Czech and is lazy to finish that
1900 2010-12-21 21:04:50 <omglolbbq> Jackass4D, bitcoins is still in need of a crystal clear simple explanation for the non-technical people
1901 2010-12-21 21:05:01 <Jackass4D> nanotube, i just come from the site
1902 2010-12-21 21:05:02 <slush_cz1> nanotube: oh, you are right, thanks
1903 2010-12-21 21:05:06 <newsham> omg: "money".
1904 2010-12-21 21:05:19 <Kiba> bitcoin is money, pure and simple.
1905 2010-12-21 21:05:30 <Kiba> it's not scrib or whatever WIkipedia make up about bitcoin
1906 2010-12-21 21:05:49 <slush_cz1> nanotube: I knew it is something long, but replaced gateway for exchange :)
1907 2010-12-21 21:06:07 <omglolbbq> nobody corrected that yet?
1908 2010-12-21 21:06:20 <wumpus> scrib?
1909 2010-12-21 21:06:28 <wumpus> isn't that something genetic
1910 2010-12-21 21:06:34 <omglolbbq> scrip
1911 2010-12-21 21:06:40 <newsham> please give simple non-technical description of the federal reserve and printed us currency, the banking system and the credit markets, omglolbbq.
1912 2010-12-21 21:06:53 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Hey, pool shows me that my miner cannot find right job for his submitted share
1913 2010-12-21 21:07:05 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: And because I know I'm not cheating own pool :-D, something goes wront
1914 2010-12-21 21:07:16 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I have max_jobs to 12 already
1915 2010-12-21 21:07:30 <wumpus> right, so they see it as a kind of casino chips
1916 2010-12-21 21:07:30 <slush_cz1> *rong
1917 2010-12-21 21:07:34 <slush_cz1> eh, wrong
1918 2010-12-21 21:08:01 <Kiba> slush_cz1: I don't see anything changing in my account
1919 2010-12-21 21:08:03 <newsham> wumpus: whats wrong with that?
1920 2010-12-21 21:08:04 <omglolbbq> newsham, i can't, but bitcoin starts out as nothing and needs to be understood by people in order for them to trust it
1921 2010-12-21 21:08:09 <newsham> casino chips are money too :)
1922 2010-12-21 21:08:25 <wumpus> newsham: I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just reading the article about script and trying to understand :)
1923 2010-12-21 21:08:27 <slush_cz1> Kiba: Are you talking about pool?
1924 2010-12-21 21:08:29 <wumpus> -t
1925 2010-12-21 21:08:34 <nanotube> newsham: problem is, for any description to make sense, you need to explain (a) public key cryptography, and (b) hashes. t
1926 2010-12-21 21:08:43 <Kiba> [ minerd --userpass kiba.mycpu:mycpu3 --url http://mining.bitcoin.cz:8332
1927 2010-12-21 21:08:44 <nanotube> -t indeed.
1928 2010-12-21 21:08:45 <newsham> omg: ok, "illiquid fiat currency with low transaction volume"?
1929 2010-12-21 21:08:45 <nanotube> heh
1930 2010-12-21 21:09:00 <slush_cz1> Kiba: looks correct. What miner shows you?
1931 2010-12-21 21:09:02 <Kiba> the wallet should be renamed to keychain
1932 2010-12-21 21:09:06 <slush_cz1> Kiba: is it submitting shares?
1933 2010-12-21 21:09:09 <Kiba> HashMeter(0): 16777216 hashes, 552.52 khash/sec
1934 2010-12-21 21:09:38 <slush_cz1> Kiba: This is correct. Wait a few hour when miner submit a 'block'. That mean, in term of pool, you have one share in round
1935 2010-12-21 21:09:39 Jackass4D has left ()
1936 2010-12-21 21:09:41 <Kiba> as I understand it, it contain private keys to your vault
1937 2010-12-21 21:10:05 <slush_cz1> Kiba: 550khash is soo poor. Average speed will be ~1-2 hours per share
1938 2010-12-21 21:10:10 <newsham> i was explaining bitcoin to my technical friend the other day and he brought up an interesting point about the block rate (avg 6 per hour or so?)... since you have to wait somewhat long to verify a transaction, its really going to suck if there's ever a run on the currency.
1939 2010-12-21 21:10:37 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1940 2010-12-21 21:10:37 <ArtForz> huh?
1941 2010-12-21 21:10:42 <newsham> i mean, there are far less liquid assets that crash too (*cough* real estate*cough*)... but.. valuinng bitcoin when everyones running for the door will be interesting.
1942 2010-12-21 21:10:47 <Kiba> newsham: run on the currency?
1943 2010-12-21 21:10:53 <newsham> kiba: everyone wanting to sell out
1944 2010-12-21 21:10:57 <newsham> at the same time
1945 2010-12-21 21:11:09 <Kiba> it's called mtgox
1946 2010-12-21 21:11:38 <Asphodelia> Yeah, that's not so much a run as a crash.
1947 2010-12-21 21:11:50 <slush_cz1> newsham: Cannot be 'everyone', because transaction have both sides everytime ;)
1948 2010-12-21 21:11:54 <newsham> ok.. currency crash if you prefer.
1949 2010-12-21 21:12:14 <newsham> slush: wanting to sell is a one-sided thng. :)
1950 2010-12-21 21:12:30 <slush_cz1> newsham: If you mean that bitcoin will suddenly crash in it's value, it does not need single transaction for this
1951 2010-12-21 21:12:48 <nanotube> slush_cz1: i'm doing about 750khps... guess kiba beats me at being slowest :)
1952 2010-12-21 21:12:52 <newsham> *sigh*  thats not what I said..
1953 2010-12-21 21:12:54 <Diablo-D3> [04:04:57] <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Hey, pool shows me that my miner cannot find right job for his submitted share
1954 2010-12-21 21:12:55 <Diablo-D3> [04:05:08] <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: And because I know I'm not cheating own pool :-D, something goes wront
1955 2010-12-21 21:12:55 <Diablo-D3> [04:05:20] <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I have max_jobs to 12 already
1956 2010-12-21 21:13:12 <slush_cz1> nanotube: Too bad, I'll have to pay bonus to kiba next time :-D
1957 2010-12-21 21:13:31 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: dunno, my miner should be saying, in debug, "valid block found, bitcoind rejected it"
1958 2010-12-21 21:13:59 akem has joined
1959 2010-12-21 21:14:05 <Kiba> nanotube: one CPU or two?
1960 2010-12-21 21:14:09 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I don't need to see miner debug, I see it on miner side
1961 2010-12-21 21:14:14 <slush_cz1> fuct, on pool side
1962 2010-12-21 21:14:37 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Are you still asking 3 works per core?
1963 2010-12-21 21:14:38 <Diablo-D3> ahh, still, having -d on helps =P
1964 2010-12-21 21:14:41 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: no
1965 2010-12-21 21:14:47 <Diablo-D3> thats the big change
1966 2010-12-21 21:14:56 <slush_cz1> oh, that will be the issue
1967 2010-12-21 21:15:06 <slush_cz1> So how it works now?
1968 2010-12-21 21:15:15 <Diablo-D3> it now has a single getwork instance, and clones it across the three executors per core
1969 2010-12-21 21:16:01 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: You split 'nonce' to many smaller ranges?
1970 2010-12-21 21:17:05 * slush_cz1 finally googled, what means 'dunno'
1971 2010-12-21 21:17:20 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: dunno == dont know
1972 2010-12-21 21:17:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: and no, I dont split exactly that way
1973 2010-12-21 21:17:43 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Know it already, shame on me :)
1974 2010-12-21 21:17:46 <nanotube> slush_cz1: hehe
1975 2010-12-21 21:17:52 <nanotube> Kiba: one core on my vps. xeon 2ghz
1976 2010-12-21 21:18:06 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: I now have a global nonce counter, and kernel execution atomically increases it for the range being done by that execution
1977 2010-12-21 21:19:05 <Kiba> nanotube: I am doing two!
1978 2010-12-21 21:19:27 <nanotube> Kiba: 550 each, or 550 total?
1979 2010-12-21 21:20:02 <newsham> has anyone made a graph of the transactions stored in the blocks?
1980 2010-12-21 21:20:07 <newsham> would be neat to see.
1981 2010-12-21 21:20:10 <EvanR-work> someone asked me about the gpu craze 'why are we spending millions of supercomputer clusters rather than a hundred ATI video cards' ?
1982 2010-12-21 21:20:18 <EvanR-work> millions on*
1983 2010-12-21 21:20:28 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: also, I just realized I have a bug.
1984 2010-12-21 21:20:29 lollo has joined
1985 2010-12-21 21:20:37 <nanotube> EvanR-work: integer vs floating point...
1986 2010-12-21 21:20:43 <newsham> evanr: people do both.
1987 2010-12-21 21:20:58 <newsham> see http://www.netlib.org/utk/people/JackDongarra/PAPERS/scop3.pdf for example
1988 2010-12-21 21:20:59 <Diablo-D3> not even that nanotube
1989 2010-12-21 21:21:02 <EvanR-work> what about integer vs floating point
1990 2010-12-21 21:21:02 <Diablo-D3> also
1991 2010-12-21 21:21:03 <Diablo-D3> also
1992 2010-12-21 21:21:05 lollo has left ()
1993 2010-12-21 21:21:18 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: one of the top10 super computers (out of the top500) is on there because it has like 10k radeon GPUs
1994 2010-12-21 21:21:33 <ArtForz> #22 I tnihk
1995 2010-12-21 21:21:43 <Diablo-D3> not because its particularly strong in the cpu department (it is, but not enough to have that spot on the list)
1996 2010-12-21 21:21:46 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: er is it?
1997 2010-12-21 21:21:51 <ArtForz> yep
1998 2010-12-21 21:21:52 <Diablo-D3> I thought it was up higher
1999 2010-12-21 21:21:55 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
2000 2010-12-21 21:22:19 <ArtForz> and thats the only ATI GPU powered machine in top100 whre GPUs arent a afterthought gimmick
2001 2010-12-21 21:22:44 <newsham> this one? http://www.top500.org/system/10591
2002 2010-12-21 21:23:01 <ArtForz> yup
2003 2010-12-21 21:23:11 riage has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2004 2010-12-21 21:23:20 <ArtForz> notice the relatively low # of cpu cores
2005 2010-12-21 21:23:35 <Diablo-D3> yeah, its basically enough cpus to manage the data backends to feed the cards
2006 2010-12-21 21:23:50 <newsham> #1 mentions nvidia gpu.
2007 2010-12-21 21:23:51 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Is this bug critical?
2008 2010-12-21 21:23:58 <newsham> http://www.top500.org/system/10587
2009 2010-12-21 21:24:13 <slush_cz1> I'm finding shares, but I feel uncomfortable with lost ones
2010 2010-12-21 21:24:54 jerm_me has joined
2011 2010-12-21 21:25:08 <ArtForz> yeah, it has nvidia GPUs, but for linpack GPUs really dont help much
2012 2010-12-21 21:25:39 <ArtForz> most of it has very GPU-unfriendly memory access patterns
2013 2010-12-21 21:25:41 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: nope, it has nothing to do with yours
2014 2010-12-21 21:26:08 jav_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2015 2010-12-21 21:26:11 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: basically, its theoretically fucking over multiGPU users rarely
2016 2010-12-21 21:26:12 <BoBeR> pastecoin is back up
2017 2010-12-21 21:26:18 <ArtForz> and the tianhe arch is quite weird
2018 2010-12-21 21:26:32 <jerm_me> Is this a good place to ask a bticoin app question?
2019 2010-12-21 21:26:41 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Thinking about those lost shares. That means you are asking getwork() 13x and then submit share from the first getwork you got
2020 2010-12-21 21:27:05 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: er, how so?
2021 2010-12-21 21:27:11 <newsham> they should make the bitcoin gui work with bitcoind if bitcoind is running.
2022 2010-12-21 21:27:15 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I'm asking YOU :)
2023 2010-12-21 21:27:28 <Diablo-D3> newsham: no, bitcoin gui CAN BE bitcoind already... start it with --server
2024 2010-12-21 21:27:30 <slush_cz1> newsham: Run 'bitcoin -server'
2025 2010-12-21 21:27:44 <ArtForz> basically other nodes can directly RDMA to/from GPU
2026 2010-12-21 21:27:45 <slush_cz1> only one '-'
2027 2010-12-21 21:27:48 <newsham> right.. but if you run "bitcoin" and "bitcoin --server" is already running, you cant run the gui
2028 2010-12-21 21:27:52 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: but I'm asking getwork() once.
2029 2010-12-21 21:27:57 <newsham> I suggest that they should let it run with the server
2030 2010-12-21 21:27:58 <Diablo-D3> newsham: yes, you stop bitcoind first.
2031 2010-12-21 21:28:03 <newsham> right
2032 2010-12-21 21:28:10 <newsham> and i'm suggesting that you shouldnt have to stop bitcoind first
2033 2010-12-21 21:28:11 <newsham> *sigh*
2034 2010-12-21 21:28:18 <newsham> why do people have such hard time understanding me? :)
2035 2010-12-21 21:28:20 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Wait a moment, I will run miner against my dev
2036 2010-12-21 21:28:23 <Diablo-D3> newsham: except you can just use bitcoind as a json api client and just not use the gui at all ;)
2037 2010-12-21 21:28:35 <newsham> right, but you should be able to do both
2038 2010-12-21 21:28:36 <newsham> simultaneously
2039 2010-12-21 21:28:40 <EvanR-work> whats the point of bitcoind
2040 2010-12-21 21:28:45 <EvanR-work> oh, the json api
2041 2010-12-21 21:28:46 <newsham> the gui should be able to be a json client to bitcoind
2042 2010-12-21 21:28:50 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: it starts bitcoin without the gui
2043 2010-12-21 21:28:57 <EvanR-work> but its not useful for mining
2044 2010-12-21 21:29:00 <EvanR-work> right
2045 2010-12-21 21:29:05 <Diablo-D3> all the miners use it
2046 2010-12-21 21:29:05 <BoBeR> any GUI is a json client to bitcoind
2047 2010-12-21 21:29:09 <BoBeR> i dont see why its a should
2048 2010-12-21 21:29:17 <newsham> you might want to use bitcoind while not mining, too..  ie. to keep track of the blocks
2049 2010-12-21 21:29:29 <Diablo-D3> newsham: but theres a json rpc api for that
2050 2010-12-21 21:29:33 freemind2 has joined
2051 2010-12-21 21:29:34 <Diablo-D3> listransactions ""
2052 2010-12-21 21:29:40 <Diablo-D3> or whatnot
2053 2010-12-21 21:29:51 <EvanR-work> what i mean is 'generate coins' option is not useful, right?
2054 2010-12-21 21:29:56 <newsham> diablo: right.. thats why you might want to leave bitcoind running even while you're not mining.
2055 2010-12-21 21:30:13 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: no its not BUT you can turn that on and off with the json rpc api too.
2056 2010-12-21 21:30:13 <freemind2> I'm working on a webapp that may accept bitcoin for payment. Is there any way to be notified of an incoming transaction, other than polling the rpc?
2057 2010-12-21 21:30:15 <newsham> evanr: you can generate coins from the gui or from the bitcoind.
2058 2010-12-21 21:30:19 <EvanR-work> yeah
2059 2010-12-21 21:30:26 mtgox has joined
2060 2010-12-21 21:30:28 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: bitcoin and bitcoind ONLY differ via the ui, they're the same exact code underneath
2061 2010-12-21 21:30:35 <EvanR-work> YES
2062 2010-12-21 21:30:47 <EvanR-work> im not asking about either one in particular
2063 2010-12-21 21:30:49 <newsham> so many conversations floating right past each other ;-)
2064 2010-12-21 21:30:53 <Diablo-D3> heh.
2065 2010-12-21 21:31:03 <jerm_me> So, is there anyway via command line or whatnot to tell bitcoin.exe not to use %appdata%\bitcoin\wallet.dat?
2066 2010-12-21 21:31:05 <newsham> evanr: by "not useful" you mean, too slow to make real coins?
2067 2010-12-21 21:31:09 <EvanR-work> just that either one is like the slowest way to generate coins right
2068 2010-12-21 21:31:13 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: every 5 seconds, as long as nothing else is happening, I ask for a new getwork
2069 2010-12-21 21:31:22 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: cpus are worthless for coin gen
2070 2010-12-21 21:31:29 <newsham> evanr: it will take you half a year to get coins, but you'll get all 50 of them at least.
2071 2010-12-21 21:31:33 <EvanR-work> and neither run on a gpu right
2072 2010-12-21 21:31:48 <newsham> you should, in theory, get the same number of coins from bitcoin client as from a mining pool.
2073 2010-12-21 21:31:48 <EvanR-work> newsham: on my machine its estimated to take over 2 years
2074 2010-12-21 21:32:01 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: if I get to the stage of finding a coin (or having it rejected by bitcoind) I flush all the getwork instances and grab exactly one more
2075 2010-12-21 21:32:10 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: You are right, max 3 request at once
2076 2010-12-21 21:32:20 <theymos> newsham: Only if the difficulty doesn't rise. Otherwise it's better to generate less coins sooner.
2077 2010-12-21 21:32:26 <newsham> evanr: too bad 2yrs electricity is more than $12.50 :)
2078 2010-12-21 21:32:33 <newsham> theymos: *nod*
2079 2010-12-21 21:32:36 <newsham> but if it decreases...
2080 2010-12-21 21:32:41 <EvanR-work> lol whats the price of bitcoins in 2 years
2081 2010-12-21 21:32:44 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,calc 750000
2082 2010-12-21 21:32:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 750000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 23 hours, 2 minutes, and 25 seconds
2083 2010-12-21 21:32:45 <freemind2> i got 50 btc last night from my gpu, and i'm only getting 1.7Mhash/s out of it :)
2084 2010-12-21 21:33:04 <slush_cz1> oh, but I see the problem with lost shares also on dev
2085 2010-12-21 21:33:23 <EvanR-work> freemind2: how long did it take?
2086 2010-12-21 21:33:36 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: It is definitely not so often (1x per two minutes?), but it is mysterious
2087 2010-12-21 21:33:45 <freemind2> EvanR-work: 3 days maybe
2088 2010-12-21 21:33:54 <EvanR-work> what gpu
2089 2010-12-21 21:34:08 osmosis has joined
2090 2010-12-21 21:34:16 <[Noodles]> 1.7M? ION?
2091 2010-12-21 21:34:19 <[Noodles]> ^.^
2092 2010-12-21 21:34:41 <EvanR-work> i get 1.1M on this dual core pentium :S
2093 2010-12-21 21:34:51 <freemind2> EvanR-work:  G84 (Quadro FX 570)
2094 2010-12-21 21:35:12 <slush_cz1> [Noodles]: Can confirm, making 1800khash on my ION too
2095 2010-12-21 21:35:15 <EvanR-work> should i not be helping the pool? xD
2096 2010-12-21 21:36:39 <EvanR-work> is there a windows gpu miner
2097 2010-12-21 21:36:43 <freemind2> even my bitcoind is getting 3.2M...i've got a core2 quad tho :)
2098 2010-12-21 21:37:05 * [Noodles] is on windows and uses GPUs
2099 2010-12-21 21:37:08 <EvanR-work> are you just that lucky to get a block?
2100 2010-12-21 21:37:16 <slush_cz1> EvanR-work: every GPU miner work on WIn
2101 2010-12-21 21:37:17 <freemind2> I think so!
2102 2010-12-21 21:37:27 <EvanR-work> all of these cpu power measures sounds pitiful ;)
2103 2010-12-21 21:38:06 <jerm_me> okay.. well... I guess I'll start in util.cpp and work backwards from MyGetSpecialFolderPath
2104 2010-12-21 21:38:07 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|my hd 4670 does 37410 khash/sec \o/
2105 2010-12-21 21:38:51 jav_ has joined
2106 2010-12-21 21:39:01 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|the 4xxx is not even on the normal support list for amd stream sdk 2.3... just "beta level support"... maybe that's because it doesn't work right with the 100% cpu usage
2107 2010-12-21 21:39:24 <ArtForz> or because they're kinda old
2108 2010-12-21 21:40:11 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|old?
2109 2010-12-21 21:40:15 <ArtForz> yes, old
2110 2010-12-21 21:40:23 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|i have still a riva tnt2 here
2111 2010-12-21 21:40:26 <ArtForz> 2 generations old
2112 2010-12-21 21:40:27 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|and a geforce 2 pro
2113 2010-12-21 21:40:29 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|THAT is old
2114 2010-12-21 21:40:38 <ArtForz> no, thats not old
2115 2010-12-21 21:40:49 <ArtForz> my oldest 3D card is a voodoo1
2116 2010-12-21 21:40:50 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|actually i have a card for ISA slot too
2117 2010-12-21 21:41:13 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|s3 virge can do 3d too! :)
2118 2010-12-21 21:41:28 <ArtForz> and I bet I have plenty of old ISA cards from 286s in a box somewhere
2119 2010-12-21 21:41:39 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|i just kept one
2120 2010-12-21 21:41:45 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2121 2010-12-21 21:41:56 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|and i threw away anything slower than 500 mhz because there's really no more use for it
2122 2010-12-21 21:42:14 <ArtForz> except when you really need something slower
2123 2010-12-21 21:42:42 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|so i don't think the hd 4670 is old
2124 2010-12-21 21:42:47 <ArtForz> yes it is
2125 2010-12-21 21:42:49 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2126 2010-12-21 21:42:59 <ArtForz> 2 generations old
2127 2010-12-21 21:43:00 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|it's still perfectly fine for really most of today's applicatoins
2128 2010-12-21 21:43:08 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|*suitable
2129 2010-12-21 21:43:15 <ArtForz> yes, so is a 16MB card from 1997 or so
2130 2010-12-21 21:43:56 <jerm_me> Ah, -datadir=path  so, thanks all the same.
2131 2010-12-21 21:43:56 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|i think there are not too much games that are not playable on a hd 4670 today
2132 2010-12-21 21:44:25 <ArtForz> yeah, at 1024x600 with everything on low
2133 2010-12-21 21:44:48 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
2134 2010-12-21 21:44:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98798 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 2001 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 24 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 13111.80168518
2135 2010-12-21 21:44:50 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|if you really need 60 fps
2136 2010-12-21 21:45:11 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|but what am i talking about
2137 2010-12-21 21:45:24 <[Noodles]> age, not frames
2138 2010-12-21 21:45:33 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|in wine i get 0 fps after 2 or 3 hours of playing in warcraft and half life 2
2139 2010-12-21 21:45:44 <newsham> freemind2: lucky.  is that your first block?
2140 2010-12-21 21:45:50 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Any idea with throwed shares?
2141 2010-12-21 21:46:15 <ArtForz> anyways, 4xxx is kinda useless for GPGPU
2142 2010-12-21 21:46:15 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|but the hardware seems to be fine
2143 2010-12-21 21:46:24 <newsham> freemind: send me 0.01 btc ;-)
2144 2010-12-21 21:46:28 jerm_me has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2145 2010-12-21 21:46:40 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|99% gpu usage for 36 hours and it still runs fine
2146 2010-12-21 21:46:40 <freemind2> newsham: yea- only installed bitcoin maybe 10 days ago
2147 2010-12-21 21:46:44 <ArtForz> a 4890 is slower than a 6850
2148 2010-12-21 21:46:58 <ArtForz> even for raw ops/s
2149 2010-12-21 21:47:03 <albatross> is there a chart out there with btc transactions per day?
2150 2010-12-21 21:47:06 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|my card is kinda useless for any advanced usage on linux
2151 2010-12-21 21:47:09 <freemind2> newsham: /msg me an address
2152 2010-12-21 21:47:23 <ArtForz> and 5/6 has enhanced insturcion set, 6xxx also has a better mem controller
2153 2010-12-21 21:47:29 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|even the defect gt 8800 i have does better both in warcraft and half life 2
2154 2010-12-21 21:48:26 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/ < get 0.05 bitcoins :)
2155 2010-12-21 21:48:26 <ArtForz> fun part: even a 4670 has better Mhash/W than anything nvidia has
2156 2010-12-21 21:49:18 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|anyone with nvidia fermi here who can tell us his/her hashes/s?
2157 2010-12-21 21:49:29 <freemind2> and here i thought i had a decent vid card...then again im not a gamer
2158 2010-12-21 21:49:50 <ArtForz> 570 gets about 100Mh/s, 580 about 115
2159 2010-12-21 21:50:09 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|37484 khash/sec
2160 2010-12-21 21:50:12 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|how is that better?
2161 2010-12-21 21:50:15 <ArtForz> I dont have a fermi, but so far my extrapolations are always within a few %
2162 2010-12-21 21:50:18 <ArtForz> Mhash/W
2163 2010-12-21 21:50:37 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|ah
2164 2010-12-21 21:50:38 <ArtForz> a 4670 is 60W, a 580 is 250W
2165 2010-12-21 21:51:08 <ArtForz> and those are actually their most efficient GPUs
2166 2010-12-21 21:51:08 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|so probably also Mhash/sone :)
2167 2010-12-21 21:51:34 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|are they doing better with cuda?
2168 2010-12-21 21:51:39 <ArtForz> nope
2169 2010-12-21 21:52:07 <newsham> cdh: wow, all I have to do is help you ruin someone's online service by bypassing their captcha and I get free money?
2170 2010-12-21 21:52:12 <ArtForz> 580 0.48Mh/Ws, 4670 0.61Mh/Ws, 5970 1.82Mh/Ws
2171 2010-12-21 21:52:13 <newsham> mechanical turk ftw
2172 2010-12-21 21:53:14 <ArtForz> nvidia 2xx is < 0.3Mh/Ws
2173 2010-12-21 21:54:06 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|i believe he won't give away too much all in all
2174 2010-12-21 21:54:57 <newsham> I thikn I just became an ePanHandler.
2175 2010-12-21 21:54:57 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Too bad, but I had to downgrade miner. Too many bad shares and no clear reason
2176 2010-12-21 21:55:12 <Cdh> 3!~cdh@p57B4420C.dip.t-dialin.net|i'll still buy a nvidia card next, ati drivers on linux are literally unusable for gaming
2177 2010-12-21 21:55:30 <freemind2> newsham: i'm pretty sure he only sends once per IP addy
2178 2010-12-21 21:55:37 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I have to notice I'm using pretty old version so if there are any problems, they can not be related to last release
2179 2010-12-21 21:55:43 freemind2 is now known as freemind[A]
2180 2010-12-21 21:55:43 * freemind[A] is now away - Reason : goin home
2181 2010-12-21 21:57:14 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: This version still requires -a parameter
2182 2010-12-21 22:03:06 <newsham> chd: care to explain what the freebitcoins.appspot.com is for?
2183 2010-12-21 22:03:18 acous has joined
2184 2010-12-21 22:03:18 acous has quit (Changing host)
2185 2010-12-21 22:03:18 acous has joined
2186 2010-12-21 22:03:43 <Diablo-D3> ;ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp]b[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2187 2010-12-21 22:03:43 <Diablo-D3> -----------------------------------------------------------------8ii
2188 2010-12-21 22:03:47 <Diablo-D3> wagh
2189 2010-12-21 22:03:50 <Diablo-D3> goddamned cats
2190 2010-12-21 22:03:52 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: oh, diablo's cat
2191 2010-12-21 22:04:01 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: jesus, how old is yours?
2192 2010-12-21 22:04:15 <slush_cz1> My what, cat?
2193 2010-12-21 22:04:38 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I don't have any :-D but I already see your cat's spamming here :-D
2194 2010-12-21 22:04:39 <Diablo-D3> [04:30:13] <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: You are right, max 3 request at once
2195 2010-12-21 22:04:41 <Diablo-D3> not at once
2196 2010-12-21 22:04:50 <Diablo-D3> it only stores one, it only requests one
2197 2010-12-21 22:04:54 <Zarutian> Diablo-D3: let me guess the left aft paw stepped down on the keyboard?
2198 2010-12-21 22:05:16 <nanotube> newsham: you can get free bitcoins from there. what's to explain?
2199 2010-12-21 22:05:18 <Diablo-D3> [04:43:53] <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Any idea with throwed shares?
2200 2010-12-21 22:05:26 <Diablo-D3> they're stale, thats the only way if it doesnt bitch about other things
2201 2010-12-21 22:05:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: no, how old is your copy of my miner
2202 2010-12-21 22:05:59 <Diablo-D3> because old ones should NOT be used
2203 2010-12-21 22:06:27 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: what video card do you have?
2204 2010-12-21 22:06:33 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: LICENCE file show me June 2007, it is probably not the right date
2205 2010-12-21 22:06:46 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
2206 2010-12-21 22:06:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 98800 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1999 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 2 days, 17 hours, 35 minutes, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 12016.16486723
2207 2010-12-21 22:06:49 <slush_cz1> 5970
2208 2010-12-21 22:06:56 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: and you have crossfire off?
2209 2010-12-21 22:07:06 davux is now known as Edgard
2210 2010-12-21 22:07:19 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I did not do anything with crossfire
2211 2010-12-21 22:07:21 <slush_cz1> ever
2212 2010-12-21 22:07:24 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: thats the GPLv3, obviously I didnt write that =P
2213 2010-12-21 22:07:29 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: then half your blocks are bullshit.
2214 2010-12-21 22:07:38 <Diablo-D3> 5970 _requires_ crossfire to be shut off.
2215 2010-12-21 22:07:46 <slush_cz1> Well, what I should do?
2216 2010-12-21 22:07:47 <Diablo-D3> this applies to any opencl application, miner or not.
2217 2010-12-21 22:07:55 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: whats the line to make a new xorg.conf?
2218 2010-12-21 22:08:10 <slush_cz1> I did not imagine I have anything like crossfire in my flat
2219 2010-12-21 22:08:22 <anarchyx> so.. the 6970 is out.. anyone got stats on the mhash rate compared to 5870?
2220 2010-12-21 22:08:23 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: 5970 == 2x gpus with an internal crossfire bridge
2221 2010-12-21 22:08:26 <Diablo-D3> how did you think it worked?
2222 2010-12-21 22:08:29 <Diablo-D3> anarchyx: its an upgrade.
2223 2010-12-21 22:08:57 <anarchyx> Diablo-D3: what do you mean
2224 2010-12-21 22:08:57 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: It worked and I don't care how :-D This is my first GPU and I don't know anything about it's internals
2225 2010-12-21 22:09:14 <Diablo-D3> anarchyx: 69xx runs faster than their equiv 58xx
2226 2010-12-21 22:09:15 Edgard is now known as davux
2227 2010-12-21 22:09:28 <anarchyx> yes, but i want to know how much faster :)
2228 2010-12-21 22:09:33 <Diablo-D3> not much at all
2229 2010-12-21 22:09:53 <Diablo-D3> anarchyx: maybe 5% faster
2230 2010-12-21 22:09:54 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Why is not opencl app working with this?
2231 2010-12-21 22:10:05 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: because ATI screwed up and AMD hasnt fixed it
2232 2010-12-21 22:10:23 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: to use _any_ opencl app, crossfire must be shut off.
2233 2010-12-21 22:10:31 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Well. What I should do on Windows (ehm) to switch it off?
2234 2010-12-21 22:10:40 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: you cant. windows cant shut crossfire off.
2235 2010-12-21 22:10:54 <slush_cz1> so opencl is not working on win?
2236 2010-12-21 22:11:00 <Diablo-D3> not on a multigpu setup.
2237 2010-12-21 22:11:04 <slush_cz1> Probably is, because I already find a lot of blocks
2238 2010-12-21 22:11:20 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: my miner should be bitching constantly about hw errors on your system
2239 2010-12-21 22:11:54 <slush_cz1> yes, time to time, nothing what I cared about. I have it overclocked a bit, so I though it is related to it
2240 2010-12-21 22:12:06 <Diablo-D3> nope
2241 2010-12-21 22:12:13 Auctwo has joined
2242 2010-12-21 22:12:16 <slush_cz1> Looks like I should reinstall
2243 2010-12-21 22:12:34 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: on multigpu systems, every gpu beyond the first one (so if you had 8, this includes 7 of them) will spam crap,
2244 2010-12-21 22:12:39 Auctus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2245 2010-12-21 22:12:55 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: my miner double checks the entire solution before submitting, and will catch insane answers
2246 2010-12-21 22:13:21 <slush_cz1> And then shows warning about hardware issue?
2247 2010-12-21 22:13:23 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: m0's doesnt
2248 2010-12-21 22:13:24 <Diablo-D3> yes
2249 2010-12-21 22:13:30 <Diablo-D3> it'll show the hw issue warning
2250 2010-12-21 22:13:56 <slush_cz1> If so, my 5970 is very kind to me and calculate good results most of the time ;)
2251 2010-12-21 22:14:49 <slush_cz1> currently 2 of 140 shares are invalid
2252 2010-12-21 22:14:59 <[Noodles]> it's not complaining on my setup, finds hashes on both cores, gets rewarded with coins equaly on both cores (using multi-instance m0mchil's), seems strange if it's supposed to not work
2253 2010-12-21 22:15:06 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: 2 doesnt sound right.
2254 2010-12-21 22:15:12 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: it should be 70.
2255 2010-12-21 22:15:27 <slush_cz1> so?
2256 2010-12-21 22:15:43 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: check your box against an actual bitcoin
2257 2010-12-21 22:15:46 <Diablo-D3> instead of your pool
2258 2010-12-21 22:15:54 <Diablo-D3> [Noodles]: you have crossfire off?
2259 2010-12-21 22:16:12 <slush_cz1> I was working against bitcoin for few weeks with this configuration
2260 2010-12-21 22:16:20 <slush_cz1> very similar results
2261 2010-12-21 22:16:22 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2262 2010-12-21 22:16:25 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: hrrrrrm
2263 2010-12-21 22:16:32 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hey, did AMD fix the crossfire bug on windows?
2264 2010-12-21 22:16:46 <[Noodles]> if i shut off crossfire, miners only see 1gpu-core, i can't use the second one
2265 2010-12-21 22:16:50 <ArtForz> no clue, probably not
2266 2010-12-21 22:17:03 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: then why is slush_cz1 only seeing 2 broken out of 140 instead of 70?
2267 2010-12-21 22:17:10 <Diablo-D3> [Noodles]: on windows? windows is retarded.
2268 2010-12-21 22:17:24 <[Noodles]> windows XP and 7, yes
2269 2010-12-21 22:17:37 <[Noodles]> tesnet blocks come in fine on both cores
2270 2010-12-21 22:17:44 <[Noodles]> no probs
2271 2010-12-21 22:17:48 <Diablo-D3> [Noodles]: and you're getting like 5xx mhash/sec?
2272 2010-12-21 22:17:52 <[Noodles]> yes
2273 2010-12-21 22:17:57 <Diablo-D3> on my miner?
2274 2010-12-21 22:18:01 <[Noodles]> yes
2275 2010-12-21 22:18:11 <Diablo-D3> and you dont get hw issue warnings?
2276 2010-12-21 22:18:16 <[Noodles]> although i'm using m0mchil's, yours totally slows down my desktop
2277 2010-12-21 22:18:26 <[Noodles]> nope, no warnings
2278 2010-12-21 22:18:29 <Diablo-D3> [Noodles]: yeah, add more -f to mine
2279 2010-12-21 22:18:36 <Diablo-D3> -f 120 or 180 works for a lot of people
2280 2010-12-21 22:18:46 <Diablo-D3> mine is far more rape happy than m0's (for optimization purposes)
2281 2010-12-21 22:18:46 <slush_cz1> fuck, this is insane. why my gpu goes to +20mhash when I close fucking Catalyst window????
2282 2010-12-21 22:19:04 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: CCC does shit to the driver
2283 2010-12-21 22:19:05 <slush_cz1> I'm mining with those fucking catalyst meters all the time
2284 2010-12-21 22:19:11 <slush_cz1> fuck off
2285 2010-12-21 22:19:25 * slush_cz1 means ccc
2286 2010-12-21 22:19:27 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if AMD finally did fix the crossfire bug on windows
2287 2010-12-21 22:19:35 <Diablo-D3> because half your shit should be broken
2288 2010-12-21 22:19:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: so, if you're not getting 70, only 2, and you're OCing... thats your bug.
2289 2010-12-21 22:20:16 <slush_cz1> So I'm cutting my card for a month on (currently) 30mhash/s for fucking window open
2290 2010-12-21 22:20:16 osmosis has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2291 2010-12-21 22:20:16 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I though that.
2292 2010-12-21 22:20:16 <Diablo-D3> but wtf
2293 2010-12-21 22:20:19 <Diablo-D3> when the fuck did AMD fix the bug
2294 2010-12-21 22:20:24 <Diablo-D3> and why the fuck havent they fixed it on Linux
2295 2010-12-21 22:20:27 <Diablo-D3> the fucking bastards
2296 2010-12-21 22:22:21 <slush_cz1> I'm making holes to walls for better cooling, I'm playing it for hour to go over 600 and the solution? Close the fucking CCC window. That's definitely unfair.
2297 2010-12-21 22:23:07 <Diablo-D3> heh.
2298 2010-12-21 22:23:26 noagendamarket has joined
2299 2010-12-21 22:23:41 <slush_cz1> is VDCC temp <110 oC safe for long term?
2300 2010-12-21 22:23:53 <Diablo-D3> <100, mostly
2301 2010-12-21 22:24:08 <slush_cz1> well, I'll downclock it a bit
2302 2010-12-21 22:24:19 <slush_cz1> still become above 600. fuck
2303 2010-12-21 22:24:36 darrob has joined
2304 2010-12-21 22:28:21 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: you said 3x pulls per 5 seconds? that miiiiiight be happening
2305 2010-12-21 22:28:35 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: :) how
2306 2010-12-21 22:28:42 <Diablo-D3> on nonce saturation
2307 2010-12-21 22:28:57 <Diablo-D3> all the executors that see it force getwork update
2308 2010-12-21 22:29:03 <slush_cz1> yes, looks like this.
2309 2010-12-21 22:29:03 <Diablo-D3> so if all of them see it, they all do it
2310 2010-12-21 22:29:11 <Diablo-D3> but it doesnt happen every 5 seconds
2311 2010-12-21 22:29:13 <slush_cz1> It was long after found block
2312 2010-12-21 22:29:14 <Diablo-D3> only on nonce saturation
2313 2010-12-21 22:29:20 <xelister> slush_cz1: ati software is legendary for it's shitty quality
2314 2010-12-21 22:29:23 <slush_cz1> correct
2315 2010-12-21 22:29:33 <Diablo-D3> xelister: I agree
2316 2010-12-21 22:29:35 <Diablo-D3> I feel sorry for AMD
2317 2010-12-21 22:29:41 <xelister> yeap
2318 2010-12-21 22:29:55 <spm_Draget> AMD is doing a good job on cleaning up I think
2319 2010-12-21 22:30:03 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I still don't get why it is over max_jobs sometime.
2320 2010-12-21 22:30:11 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Code on my side is _extremely_ simple.
2321 2010-12-21 22:30:12 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: probably because max jobs are useless
2322 2010-12-21 22:30:22 <EvanR-work> can the bitcoin power house be used to do anything else besides bitcoins? ;)
2323 2010-12-21 22:30:42 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 5:28:30 PM] DEBUG: Running getwork update automatically
2324 2010-12-21 22:30:42 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 5:28:32 PM] DEBUG: Forcing getwork update due to nonce saturation
2325 2010-12-21 22:30:42 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 5:28:32 PM] DEBUG: Forcing getwork update due to nonce saturation
2326 2010-12-21 22:30:42 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 5:28:32 PM] DEBUG: Forcing getwork update due to nonce saturation
2327 2010-12-21 22:30:42 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 5:28:35 PM] DEBUG: Running getwork update automatically
2328 2010-12-21 22:30:44 <Diablo-D3> bam.
2329 2010-12-21 22:30:49 <Diablo-D3> that should only happen once.
2330 2010-12-21 22:30:49 maximi89 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2331 2010-12-21 22:30:54 <xelister> what the fuck is nonce saturation
2332 2010-12-21 22:30:55 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,calc 4800000
2333 2010-12-21 22:30:56 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4800000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 3 hours, 36 minutes, and 0 seconds
2334 2010-12-21 22:31:03 <Diablo-D3> xelister: nonce exceeds 32 bits.
2335 2010-12-21 22:31:04 * midnightmagic hugs the world.
2336 2010-12-21 22:31:09 <Diablo-D3> xelister: as in, it loops back to 0
2337 2010-12-21 22:31:10 <slush_cz1> EvanR-work: Yes, if you are interested with cracking sha256 which have exactly the same structure as bitcoin block signature :D
2338 2010-12-21 22:31:11 <midnightmagic> you, too.
2339 2010-12-21 22:31:25 <xelister> Diablo-D3: lol your miner loops back to 0 ? good job
2340 2010-12-21 22:31:32 <Diablo-D3> erm?
2341 2010-12-21 22:31:36 <Diablo-D3> thats how numbers work
2342 2010-12-21 22:31:37 <xelister> Diablo-D3: I hope this does not happen a lot on deafult settings?
2343 2010-12-21 22:31:52 <Diablo-D3> thats the behavior of computers since long before you were born
2344 2010-12-21 22:32:03 <Diablo-D3> you overflow a variable, it loops around
2345 2010-12-21 22:32:09 <xelister> no shit grandpa
2346 2010-12-21 22:32:09 <slush_cz1> lol
2347 2010-12-21 22:32:29 <xelister> by default older versions of your miner
2348 2010-12-21 22:32:30 <Diablo-D3> xelister: so how do you think the nonce base offset works?
2349 2010-12-21 22:32:38 <xelister> do they pool getwork anyway fast enough to avoid this?
2350 2010-12-21 22:32:48 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt have to avoid it
2351 2010-12-21 22:32:53 <Diablo-D3> it detects it and forces a getwork update
2352 2010-12-21 22:32:58 <Diablo-D3> it has for quite some time
2353 2010-12-21 22:33:08 <xelister> i.e. last 3 weeks?
2354 2010-12-21 22:33:15 <Diablo-D3> over a month
2355 2010-12-21 22:33:15 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: Loops around, sets a CPU flag, potentially generates an interrupt, has lots of implications for math ops, and does a pile of other things too.
2356 2010-12-21 22:33:24 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: yup.
2357 2010-12-21 22:33:37 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: I do the easy thing and just use a long and see if it > max int
2358 2010-12-21 22:34:37 <xelister> you know how we usually say
2359 2010-12-21 22:34:39 <xelister> fuck USA
2360 2010-12-21 22:34:51 <xelister> but today I say we qualify it more,
2361 2010-12-21 22:35:03 <xelister> lets fuck USA pigs (cops) -> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/recording_the_p.html
2362 2010-12-21 22:35:40 <xelister> why can't people record cops - this is imho obvious people should be allowed to
2363 2010-12-21 22:35:46 <BoBeR> lol
2364 2010-12-21 22:35:51 <BoBeR> because cops break the law
2365 2010-12-21 22:36:02 <xelister> yea
2366 2010-12-21 22:36:08 <xelister> so we citizens should record them
2367 2010-12-21 22:36:29 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: are you guaranteed that the long will never increase by max_int in between checks?
2368 2010-12-21 22:36:33 <xelister> cops should imo have by default x2 higher sentences to any crimes they do, and x4 - x10 if they used their powers to do so
2369 2010-12-21 22:36:34 <EvanR-work> yes, we citizens of poland should record to corrupt police of america
2370 2010-12-21 22:36:43 <EvanR-work> xelister has a fixation
2371 2010-12-21 22:36:48 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: not even Art can do that with his 24 5970s, even if they were plugged into the same machine.
2372 2010-12-21 22:37:03 <xelister> EvanR-work: same rules applies to anywhere
2373 2010-12-21 22:37:06 <slush_cz1> great, looks like davout connected his miners back again.
2374 2010-12-21 22:37:13 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
2375 2010-12-21 22:37:15 <gribble> {"active_workers": 107, "hashes_ps": 5577418395, "shares": 31365, "round_started": "2010-12-21 15:52:44"}
2376 2010-12-21 22:37:20 <EvanR-work> xelister: good, then why do you only talk about america?
2377 2010-12-21 22:37:23 <slush_cz1> it is going high again
2378 2010-12-21 22:37:37 <ArtForz> actually it should be possible to overflow a max_int with some work
2379 2010-12-21 22:37:46 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: not on a long.
2380 2010-12-21 22:37:57 <xelister> EvanR-work: because USA poors its shit into most of the world, by 'liberating' countries, by political friendly 'influence' and so on
2381 2010-12-21 22:38:00 <ArtForz> no, a uint
2382 2010-12-21 22:38:07 <ArtForz> that is, if cat works with > 4 5970s
2383 2010-12-21 22:38:13 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes, but Im using a long to hold the int, so I can check > max_int
2384 2010-12-21 22:38:31 <Diablo-D3> it happens periodically on my 4850.
2385 2010-12-21 22:38:31 <xelister> EvanR-work: did any EU countries invaded other countries recently (especially on such scale)
2386 2010-12-21 22:38:36 <EvanR-work> yeah, iraq
2387 2010-12-21 22:38:39 <slush_cz1> oh, block found
2388 2010-12-21 22:38:44 <nanotube> woo
2389 2010-12-21 22:38:47 <nanotube> ;;bc,blockstats
2390 2010-12-21 22:38:47 <gribble> Error: "bc,blockstats" is not a valid command.
2391 2010-12-21 22:38:51 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
2392 2010-12-21 22:38:52 <gribble> {"active_workers": 106, "hashes_ps": 6681060232, "shares": 28, "round_started": "2010-12-21 22:36:36"}
2393 2010-12-21 22:39:04 <ArtForz> 7 5970s should be able to hit 4Ghps
2394 2010-12-21 22:39:15 <ArtForz> well, 4.3
2395 2010-12-21 22:39:43 <xelister> EvanR-work: who started it and who just tagged along? (but yea, poland, germany etc are now also evil invaders, some excuse - to a smaller scale)
2396 2010-12-21 22:40:08 <nanotube> xelister: fwiw... i'm up to 0.42 bitcoins balance from the pool with my measly cpu gen. :)
2397 2010-12-21 22:40:15 <xelister> nanotube: woot
2398 2010-12-21 22:40:22 <xelister> Im up to 1100.00 bitcoins though
2399 2010-12-21 22:40:38 <nanotube> good going. :)
2400 2010-12-21 22:40:42 * Diablo-D3 simplifies his code a bit
2401 2010-12-21 22:40:55 <ArtForz> err.. huh?
2402 2010-12-21 22:42:03 <Diablo-D3> I think I like this new code better
2403 2010-12-21 22:42:07 <Diablo-D3> I cant hit nonce saturation anymore
2404 2010-12-21 22:42:11 <slush_cz1> Good that statistics is working. Found blocks are spreaded along users with relative fair ratio. So nobody can say 'I contributed GPU which found a 4 blocks and have only 100 BTC'
2405 2010-12-21 22:42:18 <Diablo-D3> I wasn't always resetting nonce base offset every getwork
2406 2010-12-21 22:42:46 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
2407 2010-12-21 22:42:46 <albatross> artforz: what do you use for overclocking on linux. aticonfig commands only? or something else
2408 2010-12-21 22:42:46 <gribble> {"active_workers": 107, "hashes_ps": 6739533535, "shares": 397, "round_started": "2010-12-21 22:36:36"}
2409 2010-12-21 22:42:47 <xelister> nanotube: so give it another month or two of effort
2410 2010-12-21 22:42:53 <xelister> and you win the amazing
2411 2010-12-21 22:42:59 <nanotube> slush_cz1: ooh, 6.7 ghps on the pool. :)
2412 2010-12-21 22:42:59 <xelister> THE CUP OF COFFEEEEEEY \o/
2413 2010-12-21 22:43:02 <ArtForz> aticonfig and a few custom tools
2414 2010-12-21 22:43:14 <xelister> no wait, that does not sound that amazing as for few months of thinking of some 'job'
2415 2010-12-21 22:43:17 <nanotube> xelister: yea i know, peanuts. but they are /my/ peanuts, dammit! :)
2416 2010-12-21 22:43:23 <slush_cz1> nanotube: It will go down. Too short timeframe (424 shares)
2417 2010-12-21 22:43:31 <xelister> nanotube: you know how you can get /more/ money?
2418 2010-12-21 22:43:31 <albatross> custom tools needed for voltage adjustment, right?
2419 2010-12-21 22:43:38 <ArtForz> yep
2420 2010-12-21 22:43:46 <ArtForz> and it's a fucking ugly hack
2421 2010-12-21 22:43:48 <xelister> go to some bank or officee and use their public coffee machien or water column few times
2422 2010-12-21 22:43:51 <albatross> lol
2423 2010-12-21 22:43:52 <dsg> slush_cz1: Would you consider setting up an SSL port for your pool?
2424 2010-12-21 22:43:53 <xelister> or, go to homeless shelter
2425 2010-12-21 22:43:59 <nanotube> xelister: yes i know many ways, and routinely do so. this is just a 'for fun' thing.
2426 2010-12-21 22:44:05 <xelister> I guess 2-3 dinners would make you 'win'
2427 2010-12-21 22:44:06 <ArtForz> you have to directly access hardware regs to get at the vreg i2c interface
2428 2010-12-21 22:44:26 <slush_cz1> dsg: https is already working, but it is not default. there is self-signed certificate yet
2429 2010-12-21 22:44:27 <xelister> you routinly go to homeless shelter?
2430 2010-12-21 22:44:35 <albatross> fuuu...research time. thanks!
2431 2010-12-21 22:44:41 <nanotube> xelister: no, "other ways" not necessarily ones you suggested.
2432 2010-12-21 22:44:47 <xelister> ok <_<
2433 2010-12-21 22:44:50 <slush_cz1> nanotube: fuck, it is NOT going down :-)
2434 2010-12-21 22:44:57 <nanotube> xelister: and btw, i enjoy the distinction of being the slowest miner in the pool. :P
2435 2010-12-21 22:45:00 <nanotube> slush_cz1: nice :)
2436 2010-12-21 22:45:05 <EvanR-work> nanotube: wrong
2437 2010-12-21 22:45:16 <nanotube> EvanR-work: oh, are you slower than me now? :)
2438 2010-12-21 22:46:00 <EvanR-work> dell inspircrap 300kh/s ;)
2439 2010-12-21 22:46:22 <nanotube> oh wow... i can get 800khps on my inspiron. (but don't cuz it heats up)
2440 2010-12-21 22:46:33 <slush_cz1> hey, how can be block with higher time than now() in block chain?
2441 2010-12-21 22:46:40 <nanotube> EvanR-work: but damn, i suppose now i need to run the miner with cpulimit=.1, so i can beat you at slowness haha
2442 2010-12-21 22:46:44 <slush_cz1> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000002ae3200f3481672fada8afbdd878da9f52314c1dde6dbbbe648ad
2443 2010-12-21 22:46:46 <dsg> slush_cz1: Oh, which port should I use? I get a JSON decoding error trying with 443.
2444 2010-12-21 22:47:05 <nanotube> slush_cz1: there's a window of allowable timestamps on blocks.
2445 2010-12-21 22:47:13 <ArtForz> I have machine that should do ~0.4khps
2446 2010-12-21 22:47:27 <slush_cz1> dsg: You mean for mining? It is completely useles and will make performance overhead on server
2447 2010-12-21 22:47:30 <nanotube> my atomn270 netbook even does 400+ khps
2448 2010-12-21 22:47:43 <nanotube> ArtForz: what's that, a p2 ? :)
2449 2010-12-21 22:47:56 <slush_cz1> dsg: but if you _really_ care, point your miner to https://mining.bitcoin.cz/getwork/
2450 2010-12-21 22:47:59 <nanotube> wait, probably an i486
2451 2010-12-21 22:48:00 <theymos> slush_cz1: The person who generated it has bad time.
2452 2010-12-21 22:48:02 <ArtForz> no, a 8MHz 8 bit RISC
2453 2010-12-21 22:48:13 <EvanR-work> i have an abacus
2454 2010-12-21 22:48:14 <dsg> slush_cz1: Ah, thanks :)
2455 2010-12-21 22:48:14 <slush_cz1> theymos: that means that block will be rejected?
2456 2010-12-21 22:48:16 <nanotube> ArtForz: ah heh nice
2457 2010-12-21 22:48:18 <xelister> can we mine on pocket calculators?
2458 2010-12-21 22:48:27 <nanotube> slush_cz1: no, there's an acceptable window
2459 2010-12-21 22:48:27 <ArtForz> and yes, I actually wrote a sha2 lib for it
2460 2010-12-21 22:48:31 <dsg> slush_cz1: Shouldn't be a big performance impact with a persistent connection
2461 2010-12-21 22:48:32 <BoBeR> I JUST GOT BITCOIN ON ardiuno
2462 2010-12-21 22:48:34 <theymos> slush_cz1: No. Blocks are allowed to be off by up to 2 hours.
2463 2010-12-21 22:49:07 <nanotube> EvanR-work: haha yea, abacus: 1000 sph speed
2464 2010-12-21 22:49:12 <slush_cz1> theymos: Oh, thanks. So I don't need to be scared with just found block which has lower time than this, right?
2465 2010-12-21 22:49:24 <slush_cz1> BoBeR: Which speed?
2466 2010-12-21 22:49:26 <ArtForz> they can be off even more
2467 2010-12-21 22:49:54 <BoBeR> ardiuno the microcontroller
2468 2010-12-21 22:49:54 <ArtForz> block nTime has to be > median of prev 11 blocks and < network-adjusted now+2h
2469 2010-12-21 22:49:59 <BoBeR> what do you mean speed
2470 2010-12-21 22:50:07 <BoBeR> it just works no the test net
2471 2010-12-21 22:50:10 Auctwo is now known as Auctus
2472 2010-12-21 22:50:12 <BoBeR> it can send and recieve coins
2473 2010-12-21 22:50:18 <slush_cz1> BoBeR: Ah, I misunderstood your post
2474 2010-12-21 22:50:36 <slush_cz1> BoBeR: That's nice, I had already think about bitcoin and arduino
2475 2010-12-21 22:50:46 <nanotube> ArtForz: that should go on the wiki somewhere. :)
2476 2010-12-21 22:51:14 <slush_cz1> dsg: It is not persistent, those are separate requests
2477 2010-12-21 22:51:19 <BoBeR> robots here we come
2478 2010-12-21 22:51:52 <slush_cz1> BoBeR: So this does not need a running client elsewhere on PC?
2479 2010-12-21 22:52:07 <dsg> slush_cz1: The current miner yes
2480 2010-12-21 22:52:12 <slush_cz1> BoBeR: I'd be amazed if so
2481 2010-12-21 22:52:40 <slush_cz1> dsg: I still don't see any point with mining over SSL. There are no sensitive data
2482 2010-12-21 22:53:04 <slush_cz1> dsg: Submitted share cannot be hijacked and used even by another miner
2483 2010-12-21 22:53:05 spm_Draget has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2484 2010-12-21 22:53:33 <dsg> Oh, really?
2485 2010-12-21 22:54:01 <dsg> Then there's no point I suppose
2486 2010-12-21 22:54:13 <slush_cz1> dsg: no
2487 2010-12-21 22:54:49 <nanotube> slush_cz1: but someone can connect his miner using your u/p, and submit shares in your name!
2488 2010-12-21 22:54:53 <slush_cz1> I mean yes, shares are useless for anybody another. It is bounded to your worker's account
2489 2010-12-21 22:55:06 <Asphodelia> And this is a bad thing how?
2490 2010-12-21 22:55:07 <slush_cz1> nanotube: :-D fucking hacker!
2491 2010-12-21 22:55:32 spm_Draget has joined
2492 2010-12-21 22:55:32 <slush_cz1> I think those are always welcome
2493 2010-12-21 22:56:16 <nanotube> Asphodelia: you can get too many bitcoins that you weren't expecting, and die of positive surprise! :P
2494 2010-12-21 22:57:15 <slush_cz1> nanotube: did you read my issue with Catalyst control center?
2495 2010-12-21 22:57:36 <nanotube> yea i saw, slush_cz1 :) nice when a problem has an easy solution. :)
2496 2010-12-21 22:57:45 <slush_cz1> nanotube: I got +60x your's VPS performance by closing single screen :-D
2497 2010-12-21 22:57:49 <slush_cz1> ..window
2498 2010-12-21 22:57:55 <nanotube> yea
2499 2010-12-21 22:57:59 * nanotube cries
2500 2010-12-21 22:58:30 Slix` has joined
2501 2010-12-21 22:58:48 albatross has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2502 2010-12-21 22:59:17 <xelister> slush_cz1:  :P
2503 2010-12-21 23:00:11 <xelister> can speed lower faster then after ~1000 of clocks?
2504 2010-12-21 23:00:16 <xelister> *diff
2505 2010-12-21 23:00:26 <xelister> can diff alos lower, say, not just in X blocks, but also in 1 day
2506 2010-12-21 23:00:41 <nanotube> difficulty changes every 2016 blocks
2507 2010-12-21 23:00:51 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2508 2010-12-21 23:00:53 <xelister> example: ArtForz joins tesnet with full power for a day, testnet is left with hugediff, he leaves.. and then no block gets generated for days
2509 2010-12-21 23:00:56 <nanotube> so if 2016 blocks happen in one day... then yes.
2510 2010-12-21 23:01:10 <ArtForz> been there, done that, got the t-shirt
2511 2010-12-21 23:01:22 <xelister> so after such rush, if rest of network will slow down to say 1block/day...
2512 2010-12-21 23:01:33 TD has joined
2513 2010-12-21 23:01:34 <theymos> xelister: That's happened. It doesn't adjust for a long time.
2514 2010-12-21 23:01:36 <xelister> in such case, this slow down will last... 2016 days? 6 years?
2515 2010-12-21 23:01:47 <xelister> this sucks
2516 2010-12-21 23:02:01 <xelister> a bit ... although in normal net that is not really a likelly scenario
2517 2010-12-21 23:02:21 <nanotube> only an attack by a govt, maybe.
2518 2010-12-21 23:02:28 <ArtForz> even then it's crazy scale
2519 2010-12-21 23:02:50 <nanotube> well, they could throw a few nsa supercomputers at it for a couple weeks...
2520 2010-12-21 23:03:00 <ArtForz> ~15Thps
2521 2010-12-21 23:03:05 Slix` has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2522 2010-12-21 23:03:41 jav_ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
2523 2010-12-21 23:03:43 <EvanR-work> nsa supercomputers are better than bitcoinland's gpus/
2524 2010-12-21 23:03:47 <EvanR-work> and ArtForz's asics?
2525 2010-12-21 23:04:07 <midnightmagic> he doesn't have asics i thought :)
2526 2010-12-21 23:04:18 <EvanR-work> someone
2527 2010-12-21 23:04:30 <nanotube> like, <importantdude>: hey guys, could you put your gpg-encrypted-email-cracking on hold for a few days, and use the spare power to run up bitcoin's difficulty? <nsa dudes>: sure no prob... most of those emails are banal shit anyway.
2528 2010-12-21 23:04:51 <ArtForz> btw, thats a LOT of hashes per second
2529 2010-12-21 23:04:53 Slix` has joined
2530 2010-12-21 23:05:05 <Diablo-D3> hrrrrm
2531 2010-12-21 23:05:10 <ArtForz> roughly... about the entire top100
2532 2010-12-21 23:05:33 <midnightmagic> yah, I don't think people fully realise the incredible shift in power that AMD has brought to the consumer..
2533 2010-12-21 23:05:43 <Diablo-D3> fucking magnets, how do they work
2534 2010-12-21 23:05:55 <midnightmagic> i mean honestly..  orders of magnitude stronger than desktop CPUs?!
2535 2010-12-21 23:06:08 <edcba> that only work for // tasks
2536 2010-12-21 23:06:14 <ArtForz> yup
2537 2010-12-21 23:06:26 <slush_cz1> ArtForz:But when you became arrested (see, I'm not asking 'if', but 'when') for supporting the terrorism and your GPUs will be distressed, other bitcoiners will not be able to make transactions.
2538 2010-12-21 23:06:29 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: orders of magnitude? I think not.
2539 2010-12-21 23:06:34 <Diablo-D3> maybe over the past decade
2540 2010-12-21 23:06:35 <ArtForz> massively parallel task works well on massively parallel processor, news at 11
2541 2010-12-21 23:06:47 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2542 2010-12-21 23:06:58 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: lol
2543 2010-12-21 23:08:10 * Diablo-D3 sets getwork update refresh to 1000 seconds
2544 2010-12-21 23:08:15 <Diablo-D3> overflow now, bitch
2545 2010-12-21 23:08:23 <Diablo-D3> LOL
2546 2010-12-21 23:08:27 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: soooo? ;)
2547 2010-12-21 23:08:30 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 6:05:15 PM] DEBUG: Running getwork update automatically
2548 2010-12-21 23:08:33 <slush_cz1> It may solve my problem, right?
2549 2010-12-21 23:08:36 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 6:06:15 PM] DEBUG: Forcing getwork update due to nonce saturation
2550 2010-12-21 23:08:39 <Diablo-D3> takes exactly a minute.
2551 2010-12-21 23:08:47 <Diablo-D3> and it only said it once.
2552 2010-12-21 23:08:54 pr0wler has joined
2553 2010-12-21 23:09:21 <xelister> Polish police captured a drunken man
2554 2010-12-21 23:09:23 <xelister> ...he was driving a bike.  He is charged for up to 10 years in prison for offering 2 candy to the policement (bribe?)
2555 2010-12-21 23:09:34 <nanotube> heh
2556 2010-12-21 23:09:40 <Diablo-D3> xelister: public intoxication
2557 2010-12-21 23:09:40 <xelister> perhaps he should use bitcoins. Also, the world is so just
2558 2010-12-21 23:10:44 <slush_cz1> Funny how many tries 'rpcuser' (used as example in miner's tutorials) with connecting to pool.
2559 2010-12-21 23:10:56 <Diablo-D3> lol
2560 2010-12-21 23:11:16 darrob has joined
2561 2010-12-21 23:11:22 <ArtForz> btw, we're now within an order of magnitude of F@H ...
2562 2010-12-21 23:11:33 <nanotube> ArtForz: what's fah at?
2563 2010-12-21 23:11:38 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r377e24f / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Updated how and when getwork is updated, should run less now - http://bit.ly/foorbP
2564 2010-12-21 23:11:41 <slush_cz1> folding at hone
2565 2010-12-21 23:11:43 <slush_cz1> home
2566 2010-12-21 23:11:48 <nanotube> (and aren't they using fp stuff anyway? how comparable is that)
2567 2010-12-21 23:11:51 <xelister> Diablo-D3: btw, are you still doing stupid system out printlines + date + "DEBUG" ?   because, you should had written a debug function/class like a whiteperson
2568 2010-12-21 23:11:53 <midnightmagic> yeh, orders of magnitude. two base-10 orders of magnitude in straight flops. AMD 1090T is 10Gflops (if you're overclocked and lucky). AMD 5970 is ~1 peak Tflops DP. *100. That's two orders of magnitude.
2569 2010-12-21 23:11:58 <ArtForz> pretty comparable
2570 2010-12-21 23:12:09 <ArtForz> on any recent arch int and SP FP is ~ the same
2571 2010-12-21 23:12:16 <Diablo-D3> xelister: you're no longer even following my miner on git, so stfu
2572 2010-12-21 23:12:31 <xelister> that is why I asked :>
2573 2010-12-21 23:12:33 <xelister> so?
2574 2010-12-21 23:12:38 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: May this bugfix solve my problems?
2575 2010-12-21 23:12:39 <ArtForz> 5.6 PFlops
2576 2010-12-21 23:13:12 <ArtForz> we're somewhere ~600 Tintops
2577 2010-12-21 23:13:15 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: it might, try it
2578 2010-12-21 23:13:27 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: but wasnt your problems only due to you OCing?
2579 2010-12-21 23:13:46 <xelister> Diablo-D3: seen wikileaks craze parody on WL/YT?
2580 2010-12-21 23:13:47 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: no, old version works perfectly
2581 2010-12-21 23:13:47 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: your comparison is useless
2582 2010-12-21 23:13:57 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: That was not error about invalid hash
2583 2010-12-21 23:14:01 <xelister> Diablo-D3:  http://wikileaks.ch/Video.html?jhgjj
2584 2010-12-21 23:14:06 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: oh, try it, who knows
2585 2010-12-21 23:14:12 <nanotube> ArtForz: nice
2586 2010-12-21 23:14:27 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: that statement is useless.
2587 2010-12-21 23:14:28 <Diablo-D3> xelister: and yes, I replaced the logging function awhile ago
2588 2010-12-21 23:14:32 <midnightmagic> ;-)
2589 2010-12-21 23:14:42 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: that isnt it... GPUs are only useful for parallel tasks
2590 2010-12-21 23:14:50 <ArtForz> 10Gflops for a 1090T sounds awfully low
2591 2010-12-21 23:14:50 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: on non-parallel tasks, they are very slow
2592 2010-12-21 23:15:08 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: I never disagreed with you. But essentially all large-scale computational tasks are parallelizable.
2593 2010-12-21 23:15:19 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: a 5870 can do like a thousand things in parallel.... if you fill just a single pipe, you're boned
2594 2010-12-21 23:15:21 <ArtForz> except when they're not
2595 2010-12-21 23:15:26 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: you're doing that backwards
2596 2010-12-21 23:15:42 <xelister> Diablo-D3: how cool is the vid I pasted
2597 2010-12-21 23:15:50 <Diablo-D3> massively parallel problem sets can be parallel on large scale computers
2598 2010-12-21 23:15:53 <Diablo-D3> xelister: Ill watch it in a sec
2599 2010-12-21 23:15:53 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Is binary on your thread already updated?
2600 2010-12-21 23:15:56 <ArtForz> 6 cores * 2 128-bit simd engines * 4 SPs/vector * 3 GHz = 144 SP GFLOPs
2601 2010-12-21 23:15:59 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: it is now
2602 2010-12-21 23:16:28 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: that DOESNT mean a large scale computer is running stuff in vector-like parallel
2603 2010-12-21 23:16:34 <ArtForz> half that DP
2604 2010-12-21 23:16:47 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: it could be scatter gather task event push with variable length tasks
2605 2010-12-21 23:17:05 <ArtForz> 5970 is 2320GFLOPs SP, 464 GFLOPs DP
2606 2010-12-21 23:17:19 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: thats not massively parallel in the sense a GPU is
2607 2010-12-21 23:17:50 <ArtForz> and theres some problems that simply don't parallize well at all
2608 2010-12-21 23:17:58 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes
2609 2010-12-21 23:18:14 <Diablo-D3> like, web serving doesnt parallelize well....
2610 2010-12-21 23:18:16 <Diablo-D3> but it doesnt have to
2611 2010-12-21 23:18:17 <ArtForz> large sparse-matrix solving comes to mind
2612 2010-12-21 23:18:17 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: 5970 is 928 gflops by AMD's specs, DP.
2613 2010-12-21 23:18:31 <ArtForz> yes, if you count MULADD as 2 FLOPs
2614 2010-12-21 23:18:55 <Diablo-D3> you just cycle to the next request during block, and serve multiple requests in parallel, where multiple == per core across your entire cluster
2615 2010-12-21 23:19:05 <midnightmagic> none of that means that available computing power is less. whether you can usefully use it is another matter.
2616 2010-12-21 23:19:11 <Diablo-D3> (and yes, I do not consider giant web serving clusters parallel)
2617 2010-12-21 23:19:53 <EvanR-work> why not! ;)
2618 2010-12-21 23:20:03 <ArtForz> problem for matrix solving is that block lanczos communication scales with #nodes squared
2619 2010-12-21 23:20:22 <Diablo-D3> btw, speaking of this shit... you know what the worst buzzword in awhile is?
2620 2010-12-21 23:20:24 <Diablo-D3> bloom filters.
2621 2010-12-21 23:20:59 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: I think you might be quoting the 5870 with those numbers.. those are almost perfectly half of what amd lists for 5970.
2622 2010-12-21 23:21:15 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: oh, problem still here
2623 2010-12-21 23:21:18 <Diablo-D3> its a non-cryptographic hash with good characteristics
2624 2010-12-21 23:21:23 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: what exactly IS the problem
2625 2010-12-21 23:21:29 <ArtForz> *facepalm*
2626 2010-12-21 23:21:49 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: -d are some debug prints?
2627 2010-12-21 23:21:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: yes.
2628 2010-12-21 23:22:03 <ArtForz> of course AMD figures are DOUBLE the actual FP ops/second because they count one MULADD opcode as 2 FLOPs
2629 2010-12-21 23:22:28 <EvanR-work> nice
2630 2010-12-21 23:22:35 <EvanR-work> clever boys
2631 2010-12-21 23:22:42 <Diablo-D3> its not really clever
2632 2010-12-21 23:22:49 <EvanR-work> i could be an engineer ;)
2633 2010-12-21 23:22:55 <Diablo-D3> muladd is cheap/free on any worthwhile fpu impl
2634 2010-12-21 23:23:01 <ArtForz> yep
2635 2010-12-21 23:23:29 <ArtForz> usual marketing bullshit
2636 2010-12-21 23:23:33 <slush_cz1> DerrikeG1: http://pastebin.com/RqtnnLd4
2637 2010-12-21 23:23:41 <slush_cz1> DerrikeG1: sorry, it was to Diablo-D3
2638 2010-12-21 23:23:43 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: http://pastebin.com/RqtnnLd4
2639 2010-12-21 23:24:00 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: thats on the pool?
2640 2010-12-21 23:24:04 <slush_cz1> yes
2641 2010-12-21 23:24:08 <Diablo-D3> thats completely normal then
2642 2010-12-21 23:24:16 <slush_cz1> why?
2643 2010-12-21 23:24:21 <slush_cz1> Are you checking against target?
2644 2010-12-21 23:24:32 <Diablo-D3> well, I'd have to look at your pool code, but I suspect its because your code is too simple
2645 2010-12-21 23:24:44 <slush_cz1> :) why
2646 2010-12-21 23:24:58 <Diablo-D3> well, how exactly are you keeping track of what a valid share is? just checking the target?
2647 2010-12-21 23:25:01 <slush_cz1> It is because I did not hash1 and midstate for this work already
2648 2010-12-21 23:25:21 <slush_cz1> no, I'm recounting PoW
2649 2010-12-21 23:25:27 <slush_cz1> recalculating
2650 2010-12-21 23:25:36 <Diablo-D3> hrm, Im not sure if I should consider your code too complex, or not complex enough
2651 2010-12-21 23:25:46 <slush_cz1> but this is NOT this problem. My code did not find midstate and so, and he cannot count pow again
2652 2010-12-21 23:26:02 <EvanR-work> lol, more complex code is faster?
2653 2010-12-21 23:26:15 <Diablo-D3> well no
2654 2010-12-21 23:26:15 zer0t has joined
2655 2010-12-21 23:26:27 <slush_cz1> well, I'll make test on my dev version
2656 2010-12-21 23:26:27 <Diablo-D3> I'd be solving the share's solution myself
2657 2010-12-21 23:26:34 <Diablo-D3> instead of remembering those.
2658 2010-12-21 23:26:48 <Diablo-D3> but that might take a shitload of cpu once you get a lot of users
2659 2010-12-21 23:27:07 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I can make 3 millions of shares per second
2660 2010-12-21 23:27:11 <slush_cz1> this is really not an issue
2661 2010-12-21 23:27:17 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: well, hrm
2662 2010-12-21 23:27:38 <Diablo-D3> yeah, 3mhash/sec would handle this fine
2663 2010-12-21 23:27:38 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: dont remember midstate/shit
2664 2010-12-21 23:27:39 <midnightmagic> if you look at it a certain way, anything can be chipped down to nothing.. stats, damn lies, and stats. this is theoretical peak computing power, and 4tflops is valid. can it do a muladd? sure. that's two ops in the best case. how about I just generate infinite ctxt with upcalls on a popular free os and kill all performance entirely? heck, not much gflops then.
2665 2010-12-21 23:27:39 <Diablo-D3> just solve the hash solution on demand instead
2666 2010-12-21 23:27:46 <Diablo-D3> thats the better way of doing this
2667 2010-12-21 23:28:30 <midnightmagic> but i was definitely wrong about peak 1090T gflops.
2668 2010-12-21 23:28:50 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Heh, this solution works and it is pretty easy to implement/check.
2669 2010-12-21 23:29:09 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: still don't think it is an issue. Wait a minute, I will post a server log of miner requests
2670 2010-12-21 23:29:09 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: yes, but your way requires remembering state
2671 2010-12-21 23:29:17 <Diablo-D3> my way doesnt
2672 2010-12-21 23:29:22 <Diablo-D3> which inherently makes it simpler.
2673 2010-12-21 23:29:23 <midnightmagic> still..  it's measured by magnitude, not a constant multiplier.
2674 2010-12-21 23:29:39 <midnightmagic> that's pretty badass.
2675 2010-12-21 23:29:57 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Yes. I definintely need to read about counting hases better way. But this works now.
2676 2010-12-21 23:30:04 zer0t has quit (Client Quit)
2677 2010-12-21 23:30:14 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: well, apparently it DOESNT work if you're dropping potential hashes
2678 2010-12-21 23:30:33 <slush_cz1> heh, you did it now too
2679 2010-12-21 23:30:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: and your way, you should be remembering the first 19 ints of the header
2680 2010-12-21 23:30:37 <slush_cz1> i see server log
2681 2010-12-21 23:30:53 <Diablo-D3> [12/21/10 6:28:26 PM] DEBUG: Block found, but rejected by Bitcoin, on ATI RV770 (#1)
2682 2010-12-21 23:31:12 <Diablo-D3> yes, and thats normal for normal bitcoins
2683 2010-12-21 23:31:13 mtgox has joined
2684 2010-12-21 23:31:15 <Diablo-D3> the chain changed.
2685 2010-12-21 23:31:29 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Do you have any sources what all the bits in hash means? I walked this way because I fully understand what I'm doing.
2686 2010-12-21 23:31:52 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: ask art, but only the first 19 ints are "important"
2687 2010-12-21 23:31:55 <Diablo-D3> the 20th is the nonce.
2688 2010-12-21 23:32:08 <newsham> you mean the part you're hasing over?
2689 2010-12-21 23:32:10 <newsham> or the hash itself?
2690 2010-12-21 23:32:12 <BoBeR> wanna hash my bits if you know what i mean
2691 2010-12-21 23:32:15 <Diablo-D3> the headers I return always match the original 19
2692 2010-12-21 23:32:35 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: you mean the header, right?
2693 2010-12-21 23:32:39 <slush_cz1> right
2694 2010-12-21 23:32:43 <Diablo-D3> because all the bits in the _hash_ mean... the hash.
2695 2010-12-21 23:33:02 <newsham> the only "meaning" the hash has is that, treated as a number, it has to be smaller than the target
2696 2010-12-21 23:33:13 <EvanR-work> BoBeR: for how many coins?
2697 2010-12-21 23:33:16 <slush_cz1> Of course I know this
2698 2010-12-21 23:33:23 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: the only thing your code should be doing your way is remembering the full header's first 19 ints.
2699 2010-12-21 23:33:28 <slush_cz1> But how I can re-calculate hash without midstate and hash1?
2700 2010-12-21 23:33:29 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: and then match that.
2701 2010-12-21 23:33:47 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: you take header, and do sha256(sha256(header))
2702 2010-12-21 23:33:54 <BoBeR> EvanR srsly i find you anytype of porn for 2 bitcoins
2703 2010-12-21 23:34:07 <slush_cz1> So why are there those hash1 and midstate?
2704 2010-12-21 23:34:14 <EvanR-work> hmmmmm
2705 2010-12-21 23:34:17 <newsham> bober: 50c for internet porn?  seems high.
2706 2010-12-21 23:34:23 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: look at my current code at line 480
2707 2010-12-21 23:34:35 <EvanR-work> well the original offer was to hash *your* bits, so nevermind
2708 2010-12-21 23:34:46 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: I _dont_ use anything but the header for double checking the entire solution.
2709 2010-12-21 23:34:57 <BoBeR> 50c for any internet porn
2710 2010-12-21 23:35:01 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: hash1 and midstate are used to accelerate the mining process
2711 2010-12-21 23:35:19 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: sha256 does 64 bytes at a time, the header is > 64, so it does the first set of rounds for you and you can continue from there
2712 2010-12-21 23:35:25 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: well, it sounds easy
2713 2010-12-21 23:35:36 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: its sorta like how miners pre-calculate the first three rounds in the host instead of opencl
2714 2010-12-21 23:35:40 <slush_cz1> But I still have to remember those headers
2715 2010-12-21 23:35:53 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: why were you trying to remember hash1/midstate? the client doesnt return those.
2716 2010-12-21 23:36:17 <Diablo-D3> it only returns a valid header.
2717 2010-12-21 23:36:20 <Sherpa> Random BitCoin Page: http://fxnet.co.cc/rot.php?id=252
2718 2010-12-21 23:36:21 <slush_cz1> I know, I'm recalculating hash in the same way as miners do
2719 2010-12-21 23:36:47 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I'll try to hash only header
2720 2010-12-21 23:37:07 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: missing some place with documentation about this :(
2721 2010-12-21 23:37:08 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: if I wrote this, I'd only hash the header given by the client
2722 2010-12-21 23:37:21 <EvanR-work> Sherpa: looks dead
2723 2010-12-21 23:37:40 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: I wouldnt try to remember attempts given out
2724 2010-12-21 23:37:44 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: well, I know it already. Thanks for valuable inputs
2725 2010-12-21 23:38:12 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: But I have to remember that I sent this job to miner. To avoid double spending or posting incorrect stuff
2726 2010-12-21 23:38:22 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: not at all
2727 2010-12-21 23:38:33 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: the header _has to be valid_
2728 2010-12-21 23:39:07 <slush_cz1> yeah, but how I can check that when somebody send me some hash found somewhere?
2729 2010-12-21 23:39:28 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: check the header contents.
2730 2010-12-21 23:39:33 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I still can remember sent headers, then look up this if this header was already sent to miner
2731 2010-12-21 23:39:43 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: lets try it this way
2732 2010-12-21 23:39:45 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Faster is to make lookup
2733 2010-12-21 23:39:54 <Diablo-D3> how are you currently generating new headers?
2734 2010-12-21 23:40:07 <slush_cz1> lol, I'm asking bitcoind :)
2735 2010-12-21 23:40:15 <newsham> diablo: did you write a multiuser miner?
2736 2010-12-21 23:40:25 <Diablo-D3> newsham: no, slush_cz1 wrote a pool.
2737 2010-12-21 23:40:34 <Diablo-D3> newsham: which my miner works with
2738 2010-12-21 23:40:51 <newsham> how does a user tell the pool that it tried a subspace and found nothing?
2739 2010-12-21 23:40:56 <newsham> in a trustable way?
2740 2010-12-21 23:40:58 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: I already stated that pool is just proxy behing miner and bitcoin to make an accounting and os
2741 2010-12-21 23:40:59 <slush_cz1> so
2742 2010-12-21 23:41:04 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: yeah, but how do you know if the solution returned, even if you match the header, is actually valid?
2743 2010-12-21 23:41:25 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz1: you'd need a bitcoind that checks the solution for everything but the target
2744 2010-12-21 23:41:29 <slush_cz1> recalculate the hash, of course
2745 2010-12-21 23:41:45 <Diablo-D3> (and you can check the target yourself like I do in my miner)
2746 2010-12-21 23:42:07 <slush_cz1> no, bitcoin gives me works for miners and I submit only validated hashes with some difficulty
2747 2010-12-21 23:42:17 <Diablo-D3> newsham: it doesnt, it hands every user a new header to try
2748 2010-12-21 23:42:23 <newsham> questions about pool.  1) what prevents a malicious pool participant from lying about searching a block that has no solution in it.  2) what prevents a malicious client from finding a solution and keeping it for himself?
2749 2010-12-21 23:42:37 <Diablo-D3> newsham: headers are never reused.
2750 2010-12-21 23:42:43 <newsham> diablo: yah but say you hand me a header and I report back that i tried it and it didnt work.
2751 2010-12-21 23:42:52 <newsham> I dont have to actually try it to do that
2752 2010-12-21 23:42:58 <Diablo-D3> newsham: you dont report back.
2753 2010-12-21 23:42:59 <newsham> i can just lie
2754 2010-12-21 23:43:01 <slush_cz1> 2) nothing, but he is keep of his reward
2755 2010-12-21 23:43:14 <Diablo-D3> newsham: the way it works now, you report back with false target solutions
2756 2010-12-21 23:43:35 <Diablo-D3> newsham: as in, you only get rewarded for valid solutions that are valid for everything but difficulty
2757 2010-12-21 23:43:50 <Diablo-D3> newsham: you DONT get rewarded for finding nothing
2758 2010-12-21 23:44:04 <Diablo-D3> newsham: its just like running bitcoin on a network of difficulty 1.
2759 2010-12-21 23:44:06 <newsham> ok. so you find solutions to an easier difficulty and get paid for the number of times that happens?
2760 2010-12-21 23:44:12 <Diablo-D3> yes.
2761 2010-12-21 23:44:36 <newsham> ok, nw what if my solution happens to be the one for the current difficulty.  cant I just keep it and report it to the bitcoin network for the full 50coins?
2762 2010-12-21 23:44:41 <newsham> instead of splitting it with others in the pool?
2763 2010-12-21 23:44:43 <Diablo-D3> newsham: nope.
2764 2010-12-21 23:45:02 <Diablo-D3> newsham: the headers given by the pool are poisoned with a transaction you dont have
2765 2010-12-21 23:45:36 <Diablo-D3> newsham: remember, the headers contain the merkle hash of the transaction list
2766 2010-12-21 23:45:41 <Diablo-D3> you cant reconstruct the list
2767 2010-12-21 23:45:43 <newsham> can I brute force that in a smaller number of hashes than necessary to compute my own solution?
2768 2010-12-21 23:45:47 <Diablo-D3> nope
2769 2010-12-21 23:46:01 <slush_cz1> Diablo-D3: Thanks for explaining. It is everytime hard to me for my bad English :)
2770 2010-12-21 23:46:27 <Diablo-D3> newsham: the time it'd take to brute force the merkle hash ... you might as well just mine for yourself .
2771 2010-12-21 23:46:28 <newsham> hmm.. i'm still skeptical ;-)
2772 2010-12-21 23:46:37 <Diablo-D3> newsham: basically, its 2**32 times harder.
2773 2010-12-21 23:47:08 <newsham> there's 1 additional transaction in the tree that I dont know about?
2774 2010-12-21 23:47:12 <Diablo-D3> yes
2775 2010-12-21 23:47:22 <Diablo-D3> one that the pool generated just to poison the merkle hash
2776 2010-12-21 23:47:24 <newsham> and I cant brute force that separately from the act of finding winning hashes?
2777 2010-12-21 23:47:31 <Diablo-D3> nope.
2778 2010-12-21 23:47:37 <Sherpa> Anyone accepting BitCoins for services/goods feel free to make a post here -> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/services/ [Recognized services please, not individuals]
2779 2010-12-21 23:47:58 <Diablo-D3> you'd have to generate valid transaction(s) that will cause a merkle hash of the one in the header
2780 2010-12-21 23:48:01 <newsham> how many bits are in the missing transaction?
2781 2010-12-21 23:48:16 <Diablo-D3> newsham: its a normal hash
2782 2010-12-21 23:48:30 <Diablo-D3> that means you have to try 2**32 times to brute force it
2783 2010-12-21 23:48:33 <newsham> not the hash, but the transaction that generaes the hash
2784 2010-12-21 23:48:44 <Diablo-D3> newsham: its a LIST of transactions.
2785 2010-12-21 23:48:45 <ArtForz> it's a sha256 hash, if you can break sha256, why the fuck are you in am ining pool?
2786 2010-12-21 23:49:01 <slush_cz1> lol
2787 2010-12-21 23:49:08 <Diablo-D3> newsham: the block header is the header of a block that contains a variable list of transactions
2788 2010-12-21 23:49:16 <newsham> art: why do you have to break sah256?
2789 2010-12-21 23:49:19 <Diablo-D3> newsham: the merkle hash is the hash of those transactions
2790 2010-12-21 23:49:46 <theymos> You can collide the ECDSA public key or collide the hash, both of which are nearly impossible.
2791 2010-12-21 23:49:56 <newsham> diablo: but the attacker will know all of the transactions in the merkel tree except for the one poison one.
2792 2010-12-21 23:50:10 <newsham> so if he could brute force the contents of that poison one...
2793 2010-12-21 23:50:11 <Diablo-D3> newsham: yes, but the block may only contain one transaction
2794 2010-12-21 23:50:12 <ArtForz> doesnt matter one bit
2795 2010-12-21 23:50:32 <Diablo-D3> newsham: you dont NEED to know the other real transactions btw
2796 2010-12-21 23:50:48 Auctus has left ("Leaving")
2797 2010-12-21 23:50:48 <Diablo-D3> newsham: you just need to generate transaction(s) that are valid and will create that hash
2798 2010-12-21 23:50:59 <ArtForz> that tarnsaction can be fucking PUBLIC
2799 2010-12-21 23:51:04 <Diablo-D3> newsham: the single transaction poisioned blocks are much easier
2800 2010-12-21 23:51:08 <ArtForz> change it and the merkle hash changes
2801 2010-12-21 23:51:23 <ArtForz> and presto - you're back to mining for yourself
2802 2010-12-21 23:51:26 <Diablo-D3> yeah
2803 2010-12-21 23:51:36 <Diablo-D3> it takes so much fucking effort to break this
2804 2010-12-21 23:51:42 <Diablo-D3> that you might as well just _mine_
2805 2010-12-21 23:51:47 <ArtForz> you can't break it
2806 2010-12-21 23:51:50 <Diablo-D3> there is no way to usefully win here
2807 2010-12-21 23:51:54 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well technically you can
2808 2010-12-21 23:52:02 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the search space is limited
2809 2010-12-21 23:52:07 <Diablo-D3> but its still so fucking huge that why bother
2810 2010-12-21 23:52:08 <ArtForz> yes, "only" in a compleity of 2**256
2811 2010-12-21 23:52:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it has to be a valid transaction
2812 2010-12-21 23:52:18 <Diablo-D3> not random data
2813 2010-12-21 23:52:34 <ArtForz> dude, 2 to the power of fucking 256
2814 2010-12-21 23:52:51 <Diablo-D3> yes, but to try every single combination isnt 2**256 tries
2815 2010-12-21 23:52:56 <Diablo-D3> because some combinations arent valid
2816 2010-12-21 23:53:38 <Diablo-D3> the number of valid combinations WILL be 2**32 or more
2817 2010-12-21 23:53:47 <ArtForz> valid combinations of what?
2818 2010-12-21 23:53:54 <newsham> 2^32 is a very small search space.
2819 2010-12-21 23:53:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the transaction.
2820 2010-12-21 23:54:00 <ArtForz> huh?
2821 2010-12-21 23:54:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the block is invalid if there is a broken transaction in the block
2822 2010-12-21 23:54:19 <ArtForz> yes
2823 2010-12-21 23:54:22 <Diablo-D3> you cant just shove random shit into a transaction
2824 2010-12-21 23:54:27 <ArtForz> trasnaction is signed to pubkey, priv key to generate that pub key is 256 bit random number
2825 2010-12-21 23:54:38 <Diablo-D3> so you cant fake a merklehash
2826 2010-12-21 23:54:44 <Diablo-D3> it has to be a merkle hash of a valid transaction list
2827 2010-12-21 23:54:48 <Diablo-D3> ERGO
2828 2010-12-21 23:54:59 <Diablo-D3> its less than 2**256
2829 2010-12-21 23:55:08 <Diablo-D3> but not small enough to make it useful to attack
2830 2010-12-21 23:55:15 <ArtForz> what is less?
2831 2010-12-21 23:55:27 <Diablo-D3> it could be 2**128
2832 2010-12-21 23:55:30 <ArtForz> there's certainly more than 2**256 possible valid transactions
2833 2010-12-21 23:55:43 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
2834 2010-12-21 23:55:47 <Diablo-D3> either way
2835 2010-12-21 23:55:57 <ArtForz> anyways, that attack *requires* breaking sha256
2836 2010-12-21 23:55:58 <Diablo-D3> if its 2**32, _just go mine 2**32 times_
2837 2010-12-21 23:56:08 <ArtForz> and if you can break sha256, WTF are you doing in a mining pool?
2838 2010-12-21 23:56:16 <ArtForz> it's not fucking 2**32
2839 2010-12-21 23:56:19 <Diablo-D3> if you can break sha256, you're either dead or rich or both.
2840 2010-12-21 23:56:32 <Diablo-D3> and possibly have an honorary phd
2841 2010-12-21 23:56:35 <ArtForz> thats a few orders base # of atoms in the universe off
2842 2010-12-21 23:56:38 <newsham> if you can breka sha256 you're not born yet.. ;-)
2843 2010-12-21 23:56:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: we're arguing about a moot issue
2844 2010-12-21 23:56:57 <Diablo-D3> like I said
2845 2010-12-21 23:57:12 <Diablo-D3> the computational overhead is so great, you can just mine with all that
2846 2010-12-21 23:58:01 <Diablo-D3> newsham: thats the thing, the _only_ valid attack against anything bitcoin is to out mine the rest of the network
2847 2010-12-21 23:58:07 <ArtForz> its not just great, it's completely infeasible with todays technology and knwon algorithms
2848 2010-12-21 23:58:19 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it could be twice as hard, and it doesnt matter
2849 2010-12-21 23:58:32 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: flat out straight mining gets you coins faster
2850 2010-12-21 23:58:46 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2851 2010-12-21 23:59:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so the entire issue is moot.
2852 2010-12-21 23:59:17 <theymos> It doesn't require breaking SHA-256. You could also break ECDSA so that the real transaction in the block can be claimed by you. This would probably be easier.
2853 2010-12-21 23:59:26 <ArtForz> yep
2854 2010-12-21 23:59:44 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yeah, but this is largely getting into math phd masturbation
2855 2010-12-21 23:59:58 <ArtForz> well, it's easier by about a factor of 2**128