1 2010-12-23 00:00:03 <fabianhjr> devon_hillard: Asphodelia has reason.
   2 2010-12-23 00:01:36 mndrix has joined
   3 2010-12-23 00:01:36 mndrix has quit (Changing host)
   4 2010-12-23 00:01:36 mndrix has joined
   5 2010-12-23 00:04:27 fabianhjr_ has joined
   6 2010-12-23 00:04:57 <fabianhjr_> Sorry for the connection issues.
   7 2010-12-23 00:05:08 fabianhjr has quit (Disconnected by services)
   8 2010-12-23 00:05:10 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
   9 2010-12-23 00:07:14 <xelister> fabianhjr: I claim 0.01 BTC in moral damage to  1CkMG3CTVc6DaGqou35QmxKLnnQJ6Moc6G for this outrage
  10 2010-12-23 00:07:39 <fabianhjr> xelister: wtf?
  11 2010-12-23 00:07:50 * xelister prepares lawsuit
  12 2010-12-23 00:07:59 <fabianhjr> xD You want it in debt or in assets </joke>
  13 2010-12-23 00:08:18 <xelister> in bitcoin ;)
  14 2010-12-23 00:08:41 <devon_hillard> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4&NR=1 Bohemian Rhapsody RMX
  15 2010-12-23 00:08:49 <fabianhjr> Sorry, I only own 10 mansions and a corvet. I will give you a debt certificate then. xD
  16 2010-12-23 00:09:16 <fabianhjr> Tough, You may choose any of the above. :P
  17 2010-12-23 00:11:58 <fabianhjr> xelister: what would you prefer?
  18 2010-12-23 00:14:45 <EvanR> how many wives you got?
  19 2010-12-23 00:15:07 Wfx has joined
  20 2010-12-23 00:17:03 <fabianhjr> 3 per mansion. :P </joke>
  21 2010-12-23 00:17:45 epicurus has joined
  22 2010-12-23 00:19:27 <EvanR> is there an rss for mtgox? or some other way to get instant updates
  23 2010-12-23 00:19:48 <Asphodelia> #bitcoin-market I think
  24 2010-12-23 00:19:52 <slush_cz> EvanR I implemented jabber bot
  25 2010-12-23 00:20:25 <EvanR> jabber bot?
  26 2010-12-23 00:20:33 <slush_cz> EvanR: jabber bot
  27 2010-12-23 00:20:37 <EvanR> jabber bot?
  28 2010-12-23 00:21:04 <slush_cz> EvanR: don't know jabber?
  29 2010-12-23 00:21:14 <EvanR> the chat service
  30 2010-12-23 00:21:19 <ne0futur> I d also need a mtgox rss
  31 2010-12-23 00:21:27 <EvanR> you implemented a jabber bot?
  32 2010-12-23 00:21:43 <ne0futur> but theres only json api iirc
  33 2010-12-23 00:21:44 <ne0futur> http://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php
  34 2010-12-23 00:21:45 <slush_cz> yes. You add jabber contact to your roster and will receive every price change as message
  35 2010-12-23 00:21:52 <ne0futur> things like this
  36 2010-12-23 00:22:12 <EvanR> ne0futur: so basically you have to poll
  37 2010-12-23 00:22:27 <ne0futur> but my rss feeder wont do it :p
  38 2010-12-23 00:22:29 <ne0futur> it needs rss
  39 2010-12-23 00:22:45 <slush_cz> EvanR: bitcoin@jabber.cz
  40 2010-12-23 00:23:06 <slush_cz> EvanR Bot is checking price every few second and push changes to you
  41 2010-12-23 00:23:12 * EvanR looks around for a jabber client
  42 2010-12-23 00:23:24 <slush_cz> EvanR: Pidgin
  43 2010-12-23 00:25:23 <EvanR> jabber isnt what im looking for, and youre just polling
  44 2010-12-23 00:25:33 <EvanR> was wondering if there was another way
  45 2010-12-23 00:25:36 <EvanR> guess not
  46 2010-12-23 00:25:48 <slush_cz> I think so
  47 2010-12-23 00:26:19 <ne0futur> EvanR: https://mtgox.com/support/tradeAPI
  48 2010-12-23 00:28:04 <EvanR> yeah
  49 2010-12-23 00:29:03 <slush_cz> There is still need to pull changes. I made bot to do it once and then re-distribute it to subscribers
  50 2010-12-23 00:30:05 <xelister> jabber is a fucked up protocol ;)
  51 2010-12-23 00:30:29 <xelister> one milion extensions and shit, and no one can agree on basic set of cunctions and implement bug-free the basics even
  52 2010-12-23 00:30:37 <slush_cz> Yes, I should re-implement that to MSN
  53 2010-12-23 00:31:08 <donpdonp> anyone know the hashrate of the ati6970?
  54 2010-12-23 00:33:13 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
  55 2010-12-23 00:33:19 grondilu has joined
  56 2010-12-23 00:37:05 <da2ce7> well, they move back in freedoms, but at least they have done something that is way overdew...  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/us-politics/8219550/Barack-Obama-signs-law-repealing-Dont-Ask-Dont-Tell-for-gays-in-the-military.html
  57 2010-12-23 00:39:55 <xelister> well, we can then summarize - what a gay government you have ;)
  58 2010-12-23 00:41:30 <grondilu> gay people in army is weird anyway.
  59 2010-12-23 00:41:38 <Sherpa> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/jan/05/energy.g2
  60 2010-12-23 00:41:40 <da2ce7> lol, well now gay can get killed at battle, and be open about it.  :)
  61 2010-12-23 00:44:01 <da2ce7> I know a couple gay people in the US army... it really was a stupid law.  Now if they will get arround to repealing the 99.9 other laws... I'll be more happy.
  62 2010-12-23 00:44:43 Abhish has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  63 2010-12-23 00:45:10 grondilu has left ()
  64 2010-12-23 00:48:37 <Sherpa> ERROR: ConnectInputs() : ded1cc3b76 mapTransactions prev not found c6ef1374f6
  65 2010-12-23 00:48:37 <Sherpa> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed ded1cc3b76
  66 2010-12-23 00:49:45 <theymos> That's normal. Someone tried to send a transaction using an unconfirmed transaction that you haven't seen.
  67 2010-12-23 00:50:25 <Sherpa> K
  68 2010-12-23 00:50:28 <Sherpa> Bitcoin version 0.3.19 beta
  69 2010-12-23 00:50:28 <Sherpa> OS version Windows NT 6.1 (build 7600), 64-bit edition
  70 2010-12-23 00:50:48 <Sherpa> Loaded 7226 addresses
  71 2010-12-23 00:50:48 <Sherpa>  addresses               227ms
  72 2010-12-23 00:50:48 <Sherpa> Loading block index...
  73 2010-12-23 00:50:48 <Sherpa> LoadBlockIndex(): hashBestChain=00000000000b73890b28  height=92680
  74 2010-12-23 00:50:48 <Sherpa>  block index            2125ms
  75 2010-12-23 00:51:14 <Sherpa> mapBlockIndex.size() = 92681
  76 2010-12-23 00:51:14 <Sherpa> nBestHeight = 92680
  77 2010-12-23 00:51:56 <theymos> Why are you posting this?
  78 2010-12-23 00:52:11 <Sherpa> Shits and giggles
  79 2010-12-23 00:52:16 <Sherpa> version message: version 31700, blocks=98973
  80 2010-12-23 00:54:44 <Sherpa> I'm redownloading BlockChain
  81 2010-12-23 00:55:08 <omglolbbq> how does this poolminer calculate? im contributing 65mhash of 5551mhash, so that should be about 0.585 btc if a block gets solved, on the other hand, i just found 171 shares of the 29400 of current round, that should put me at 0.29btc , but my profile displays expected reward of 0.38 btc for current round... im a little confused
  82 2010-12-23 00:58:27 <donpdonp> if all the miners are working on the same block, there can only be one winner, right?
  83 2010-12-23 00:58:45 <donpdonp> (not a pooled miner question which divides the profits, but a general miner question)
  84 2010-12-23 00:59:28 <omglolbbq> donpdonp, i think thats right, and the reason why if two miners find the same solution in a close timeframe one wont count
  85 2010-12-23 01:00:32 <donpdonp> omglolbbq: yeah what i dont get is that says if i am not one of the fastest miners, i'll never get a winning block. there is no point unless i have 600Mhashes or so (ati 5970)
  86 2010-12-23 01:00:37 <tcatm> donpdonp: Yep. One miner will solve the block and the all miners work on the following block.
  87 2010-12-23 01:01:06 <theymos> donpdonp: Each hash is like an entry into a lottery. More hashes = more entries, but every hash has a chance to win.
  88 2010-12-23 01:01:40 <omglolbbq> you still have a chance to win, it's just less then the faster miners
  89 2010-12-23 01:02:02 <donpdonp> theymos: there is only one winning hash that solves the work of some number of leading zeros. first correct solution wins, so i'll never win
  90 2010-12-23 01:02:32 <omglolbbq> why wouldn't you have the solution?
  91 2010-12-23 01:02:46 <donpdonp> because it takes me twice as long
  92 2010-12-23 01:03:01 <omglolbbq> so your chance halves
  93 2010-12-23 01:03:06 <theymos> donpdonp: You can get a winning hash before everyone else. Each hash you calculate is a random number. If the number is below some target, you win the block. There is no "progress" to solving a block.
  94 2010-12-23 01:03:08 <omglolbbq> it doesn't become pointless
  95 2010-12-23 01:03:11 <donpdonp> oh wait thats on average, i guess there is some chance that by luck i come across the solution with a 300Mhash card before a 500Mhash card
  96 2010-12-23 01:03:23 <fabianhjr> donpdonp: just make 1 hash on hand of something long like your bday + your favourite movie+ some lyrics of your favourite song and you have a chance to win!
  97 2010-12-23 01:03:38 <donpdonp> theymos: yeah that makes sense
  98 2010-12-23 01:03:44 <[Noodles]> you migh be lucky and find a solution first with 500khash
  99 2010-12-23 01:03:51 <[Noodles]> even with 1khash
 100 2010-12-23 01:04:00 <[Noodles]> doesnt matter actually
 101 2010-12-23 01:04:04 <omglolbbq> just needs a more luck :)
 102 2010-12-23 01:04:07 <fabianhjr> donpdonp: even if the 500M guy has a better probability, I can win him with my improbability drive. :D
 103 2010-12-23 01:04:16 <donpdonp> right, so the slow cards arent just slow, they'll really never win
 104 2010-12-23 01:04:31 <[Noodles]> on average, they'll never win
 105 2010-12-23 01:04:32 <fabianhjr> donpdonp: there is still a chance.
 106 2010-12-23 01:04:47 <fabianhjr> [Noodles] out it on the right words :P
 107 2010-12-23 01:04:49 <omglolbbq> the cpu's  for example have such a low chance, you could call that never probably
 108 2010-12-23 01:04:50 <donpdonp> [Noodles]: yeah. probability.
 109 2010-12-23 01:05:03 <donpdonp> ok that clears it up in my head. thanks everyone.
 110 2010-12-23 01:05:26 <omglolbbq> slush_cz you there?
 111 2010-12-23 01:05:27 <[Noodles]> that's why they SHOULD join a pool, IF they want coins as reward for contributing
 112 2010-12-23 01:05:31 <fabianhjr> Unless you joing a pooled effort. In which your chances are higher and the reward lower.
 113 2010-12-23 01:05:35 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: yep
 114 2010-12-23 01:05:44 <nanotube> donpdonp: you are forgetting that every miner hashes /different input/
 115 2010-12-23 01:05:52 <omglolbbq> im a little confused to the share calculating
 116 2010-12-23 01:05:53 <Sherpa> ;;bc,calc 82082
 117 2010-12-23 01:05:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 82082 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 31 minutes, and 28 seconds
 118 2010-12-23 01:05:54 <nanotube> donpdonp: because everyone inserts his own unique "give me 50 btc" transaction
 119 2010-12-23 01:06:42 <fabianhjr> ;;bc,calc 327000
 120 2010-12-23 01:06:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 327000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 2 days, 4 hours, 50 minutes, and 41 seconds
 121 2010-12-23 01:06:50 <donpdonp> nanotube: interesting point. i think the probability of finding the correct hash remains the same
 122 2010-12-23 01:07:04 <fabianhjr> Oh, damn. The difficulty increased by ~200 D:
 123 2010-12-23 01:07:27 <[Noodles]> more like 2000
 124 2010-12-23 01:07:30 <omglolbbq> slush_cz, if i calculate my share from shares to total sharers this round i should get 0.29, but my profile displays expected reward 0.38
 125 2010-12-23 01:07:36 <Sherpa> ;;bc,calc 115014
 126 2010-12-23 01:07:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 115014 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 6 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 42 seconds
 127 2010-12-23 01:07:40 <donpdonp> how does the 'network' know how many hash attempts are made, and thus adjusts the difficulty?
 128 2010-12-23 01:07:55 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: So be happy and don't say it to anybody :-D
 129 2010-12-23 01:07:56 <fabianhjr> [Noodles]: sorry, my computer is lagging while I run the mining program. 8)
 130 2010-12-23 01:07:57 <Sherpa> Thats what 200MHz on my GPU makes for in khash
 131 2010-12-23 01:08:00 <theymos> donpdonp: It doesn't. It's just based on time to generate the blocks.
 132 2010-12-23 01:08:16 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: how many shares do you have now?
 133 2010-12-23 01:08:19 <omglolbbq> ok... i didn't say anything, nobody saw what i said!
 134 2010-12-23 01:08:22 <omglolbbq> xD
 135 2010-12-23 01:08:22 <Sherpa> 32932 khash/s
 136 2010-12-23 01:08:30 <slush_cz> Sherpa: shares, not speed
 137 2010-12-23 01:08:34 <omglolbbq> 188 shares
 138 2010-12-23 01:08:38 <Sherpa> ?
 139 2010-12-23 01:08:48 <slush_cz> Sherpa: sorry, bad nick :)
 140 2010-12-23 01:08:50 <fabianhjr> shares of what?
 141 2010-12-23 01:08:52 <donpdonp> theymos: oh! ok. makes sense
 142 2010-12-23 01:09:10 <Sherpa> ;;bc,calc 32932
 143 2010-12-23 01:09:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 32932 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 3 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 43 minutes, and 33 seconds
 144 2010-12-23 01:09:11 <midnightmagic> must be of the pool.
 145 2010-12-23 01:09:11 <[Noodles]> shares of work done for the pool
 146 2010-12-23 01:09:39 * Sherpa might build a machine to host a mining pool :)
 147 2010-12-23 01:09:43 <omglolbbq> slush, the profile corrected it! my own calculation 0.307, profile expects 0.306
 148 2010-12-23 01:09:53 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: So ~0.3 is correct.
 149 2010-12-23 01:09:58 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: 188/30591*50
 150 2010-12-23 01:10:00 <omglolbbq> is there a delay in calculation on the profile?
 151 2010-12-23 01:10:16 <omglolbbq> just a few minutes ago it displayed 0.38
 152 2010-12-23 01:10:25 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: No, but total shares is changing very frequently
 153 2010-12-23 01:10:26 <[Noodles]> no delay, but it changes with every hash you send
 154 2010-12-23 01:10:28 <Sherpa> 1st line of http://www.bitcoinx.info/ has current stats for BitCoin :)
 155 2010-12-23 01:10:28 <fabianhjr> Need to reboot. BRB
 156 2010-12-23 01:10:30 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
 157 2010-12-23 01:10:38 <Sherpa> BitCoin Blocks: 98975 Coins: 4948750 Difficulty: 14484 BTC/Block: 50
 158 2010-12-23 01:10:45 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Changes with every hash ANYBODY send
 159 2010-12-23 01:10:54 <slush_cz> current submit rate is >1/sec
 160 2010-12-23 01:11:05 <omglolbbq> o_o" 5 mln coins... i wonder who has them
 161 2010-12-23 01:11:15 <[Noodles]> the longer you are in a roiund, the closer you get to your 0.585
 162 2010-12-23 01:11:58 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: This is just an expectation. It may be incorrect until workers submit their shares every second
 163 2010-12-23 01:12:27 <omglolbbq> slush_cz, ok :)
 164 2010-12-23 01:18:40 <omglolbbq> aww no players in bitcoin poker xD
 165 2010-12-23 01:19:33 satamusic has joined
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 169 2010-12-23 01:28:07 Toadyonps3 has joined
 170 2010-12-23 01:28:23 <omglolbbq> somebody interrested here in playing bitcoin poker?
 171 2010-12-23 01:29:07 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: me, but not now, I'm too busy
 172 2010-12-23 01:30:00 <omglolbbq> np, i still need to confirm balance
 173 2010-12-23 01:31:23 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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 180 2010-12-23 01:55:57 <slush_cz> omglolbbq: What's the link to poker? Today I'm out (3am here again), but I'm interested in
 181 2010-12-23 02:03:14 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 182 2010-12-23 02:04:32 <slush_cz> I just fixed an pool issue with newest Diablo's miner.
 183 2010-12-23 02:05:09 <slush_cz> Please all users of Diablo's miner, please update. It comes with significant improvements with pooled mining
 184 2010-12-23 02:05:54 <nanotube> slush_cz: ooh what was the source of the problem?
 185 2010-12-23 02:06:43 Cusipzzz has joined
 186 2010-12-23 02:07:14 <slush_cz> nanotube: One of Diablo's improvement is that cores are working on the same job at the same time.
 187 2010-12-23 02:07:14 <nanotube> and woo, i'm almost up to half a bitcoin on my pool balance! :)
 188 2010-12-23 02:08:30 <slush_cz> nanotube: But all other miners and previous version of Diablo's throw away job when nonce was found. And pool did not allow to reuse job which was already submitted
 189 2010-12-23 02:08:57 <nanotube> mmm
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 208 2010-12-23 03:01:45 <sneak> ArtForz: ping
 209 2010-12-23 03:03:14 mndrix has joined
 210 2010-12-23 03:05:26 <ArtForz> ?
 211 2010-12-23 03:05:42 <sneak> ArtForz: are you coming to berlin for ccc/berlinsides?
 212 2010-12-23 03:06:31 <sneak> http://sneak.datavibe.net/20101222/financing-the-revolution/
 213 2010-12-23 03:16:32 <da2ce7> ;;bc,calc 470000
 214 2010-12-23 03:16:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 470000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 45 minutes, and 59 seconds
 215 2010-12-23 03:16:49 <nanotube> btw... so is the actual pubkey of the source address included in a transaction? so that all clients can verify that it is valid?
 216 2010-12-23 03:17:05 <nanotube> if not, how is validity verified?
 217 2010-12-23 03:17:18 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
 218 2010-12-23 03:17:18 <gribble> {"active_workers": 98, "hashes_ps": 4883470182, "shares": 5178, "round_started": "2010-12-23 01:59:20"}
 219 2010-12-23 03:17:55 <slush_cz> nanotube: mine 600mhash is not here, I'm testing on testnet
 220 2010-12-23 03:18:09 <nanotube> ah ok... that's why we're below 5ghps...
 221 2010-12-23 03:18:17 <theymos> nanotube: It's including in the scriptSig when you spend a transaction that was sent to your BC address.
 222 2010-12-23 03:18:35 <nanotube> slush_cz: 600mhash... testnet must be running up blocks like mad.
 223 2010-12-23 03:18:47 <nanotube> theymos: cool so in other words, that's a 'yes' :)
 224 2010-12-23 03:18:55 <slush_cz> nanotube: it is :)
 225 2010-12-23 03:20:30 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 226 2010-12-23 03:24:05 Slix` has quit (Quit: { throw std::runtime_error("Client got bored of IRC."); })
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 228 2010-12-23 03:26:32 <slush_cz> nanotube: I'm back, but I probably shot down few miners because of restart
 229 2010-12-23 03:27:01 <slush_cz> nanotube: Few miners still run on older versions because of many issues in newer versions
 230 2010-12-23 03:28:46 <[Noodles]> your just killing 1 of 3 miners on my side ;o)
 231 2010-12-23 03:30:18 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 232 2010-12-23 03:31:12 <slush_cz> [Noodles]: Soory, it was the last restart today
 233 2010-12-23 03:31:26 <da2ce7> slush_cz, what has changed?
 234 2010-12-23 03:31:33 <[Noodles]> nevermind, it's not a problem at all, as long as i notice
 235 2010-12-23 03:31:35 <slush_cz> Not all issues solved :( but I need to manage this with Diablo.
 236 2010-12-23 03:31:41 <slush_cz> Does not look like problem on my side now
 237 2010-12-23 03:32:11 <slush_cz> But stability of Diablo's with pool is good enough, I migrated from older version now
 238 2010-12-23 03:32:51 <slush_cz> da2ce7: Diablo made some performance improvements for my pool. Unfortunately they were incompatible with it :))
 239 2010-12-23 03:33:41 <slush_cz> We found one problem yesterday which is currently fixed - submitting more nonces for one job.
 240 2010-12-23 03:33:48 <da2ce7> so the pool acepts bocks with the same work, but differnt nounces?
 241 2010-12-23 03:34:13 <slush_cz> But it looks like he (or <something>) is uploading same nonces twice, sometimes
 242 2010-12-23 03:34:15 <da2ce7> cool,
 243 2010-12-23 03:34:49 <da2ce7> slush_cz, your miner is becoming pritty solid.
 244 2010-12-23 03:35:05 <slush_cz> da2ce7: I'm doing my best :)
 245 2010-12-23 03:35:43 Cdh has joined
 246 2010-12-23 03:36:48 skeledrew has joined
 247 2010-12-23 03:37:03 <slush_cz> So still some problems here, but it does not throw away unique shares. So probably no PoW lost
 248 2010-12-23 03:39:06 wizeman_ is now known as rcorreia
 249 2010-12-23 03:39:12 <da2ce7> how is the dynamic dificuty going?
 250 2010-12-23 03:40:10 Cdh has quit (3!~cdh@p57B44456.dip.t-dialin.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 251 2010-12-23 03:40:47 <slush_cz> no progress in last days, I solved those issues
 252 2010-12-23 03:41:03 <slush_cz> But it is #1 task in my TODO now
 253 2010-12-23 03:42:32 <da2ce7> are you going to release the source code?
 254 2010-12-23 03:47:49 <ArtForz> updated network hashrate graph: http://bayimg.com/fAbMpaAdj
 255 2010-12-23 03:48:30 <slush_cz> da2ce7: No, I don't plan it for now. I like to run it as service
 256 2010-12-23 03:52:11 <theymos> ArtForz: Nice exponential growth. I'd expect it to level off soon, though, since the price is remaining pretty low.
 257 2010-12-23 03:57:32 <Keefe> what's the sample size used for that chart?
 258 2010-12-23 03:57:38 <ArtForz> 144 blocks
 259 2010-12-23 04:00:27 <slush_cz> ;;seen Diablo-D3
 260 2010-12-23 04:00:27 <gribble> Diablo-D3 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 10 hours, 29 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Diablo-D3> run mvn package
 261 2010-12-23 04:00:40 <Keefe> exactly? the timescale is linear though
 262 2010-12-23 04:00:50 <ArtForz> so?
 263 2010-12-23 04:00:59 <Keefe> are the datapoints spaces evenly also?
 264 2010-12-23 04:01:03 <Keefe> spaced*
 265 2010-12-23 04:01:07 <Keefe> horizontally
 266 2010-12-23 04:01:09 <ArtForz> nope
 267 2010-12-23 04:01:11 <Keefe> ah
 268 2010-12-23 04:01:16 <Keefe> nice chart
 269 2010-12-23 04:01:32 <EvanR> lol @ bid 0.2499 10, ask 0.2501 10
 270 2010-12-23 04:02:05 <EvanR> which way is it gonna go xD
 271 2010-12-23 04:03:54 <Keefe> i'm going to guess the bid will be filled first
 272 2010-12-23 04:09:03 pr0wler has quit (Quit: :)
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 276 2010-12-23 04:28:21 <EvanR> <+gribble> MTG|     TRADE|                         10 @ $0.2499
 277 2010-12-23 04:30:11 <EvanR> youre the man
 278 2010-12-23 04:30:17 <EvanR> good thing i didnt bet ;)
 279 2010-12-23 04:32:56 <Cusipzzz> it's his bot, obv
 280 2010-12-23 04:33:07 <EvanR> lol
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 285 2010-12-23 05:10:16 <Keefe> i wouldn't have bet. it would be too easy to cause the desired outcome cheaply
 286 2010-12-23 05:11:12 <Keefe> i had nothing to do with that outcome, for what my saying so is worth :)
 287 2010-12-23 05:11:27 satamusic_ has joined
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 289 2010-12-23 05:21:18 <appamatto> Any crypto-minded folks around here used Curve25519 before?
 290 2010-12-23 05:23:45 <nanotube> appamatto: no... but why do you ask? it seems it's incompatible with the ecdsa standard...
 291 2010-12-23 05:25:04 <appamatto> what part of it?
 292 2010-12-23 05:25:45 <appamatto> it's not one of the selected curves, in other words?
 293 2010-12-23 05:28:04 madscientist has joined
 294 2010-12-23 05:28:35 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 295 2010-12-23 05:28:47 <appamatto> djb is the man
 296 2010-12-23 05:28:48 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/technical-support/10-bitcoin-blocks-full-blockchain-download.html
 297 2010-12-23 05:29:17 lolcat has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 298 2010-12-23 05:29:34 <appamatto> Sherpa, is this better than having the client download it?
 299 2010-12-23 05:29:39 <nanotube> appamatto: yep, it's outside the spec for the acceptable family of curves.
 300 2010-12-23 05:29:46 madscientist has quit (Client Quit)
 301 2010-12-23 05:29:59 <appamatto> nanotube, I don't think the spec says that other curves are inherently dangerous
 302 2010-12-23 05:30:01 <nanotube> appamatto: well, it may be faster... but you have to trust the source.
 303 2010-12-23 05:30:12 <nanotube> appamatto: not inherently dangerous... just outside the spec.
 304 2010-12-23 05:32:07 <appamatto> I read about off-the-record protocols today
 305 2010-12-23 05:32:21 <appamatto> I always wondered how that could be done
 306 2010-12-23 05:32:45 <appamatto> Forgery is a part of the protocol
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 310 2010-12-23 05:56:20 <theymos> What is the proper/consistent way of using the AddToWallet function from main.cpp in init.cpp? Should I just copy/paste it?
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 324 2010-12-23 06:46:28 <BoBeR> when was the last purchase on bitcoin
 325 2010-12-23 06:46:36 <BoBeR> it seems like no money is being made
 326 2010-12-23 06:47:06 <nanotube> last trade on mtgox was 23.26 EST (according to #bitcoin-market)
 327 2010-12-23 06:47:35 darrob has joined
 328 2010-12-23 06:51:10 grondilu has joined
 329 2010-12-23 06:51:47 <grondilu> nanotube: do you think you could implement an robot for dealing with auctions on #bitcoin-auction ?
 330 2010-12-23 06:52:19 <nanotube> what would it do?
 331 2010-12-23 06:53:39 <grondilu> pretty much what I did.  It would reads auctions from people, and declare the winner.
 332 2010-12-23 06:54:22 <nanotube> so basically people would do something like "bid <amount>", and it'd record it as highest bid, or else reject if it's too low?
 333 2010-12-23 06:54:41 <grondilu> yes, more or less
 334 2010-12-23 06:55:20 <grondilu> bitd could have the form "30", "10bc", "+1", "_.04" and so on...
 335 2010-12-23 06:55:53 <nanotube> i think to reduce confusion, it should just take full amount.
 336 2010-12-23 06:56:14 <grondilu> we should permit fast typing
 337 2010-12-23 06:56:20 <nanotube> numbers are fast.
 338 2010-12-23 06:56:43 <nanotube> plus there's message history. you can hit arrow-up, and edit your previous number.
 339 2010-12-23 06:57:06 <nanotube> e.g., you saw what happened to day at the auction, when you said 'just type decimals'... there was some confusion.
 340 2010-12-23 06:57:14 <nanotube> best to stick to full amounts.
 341 2010-12-23 06:57:35 <grondilu> you weren't there earlier.  Bober and Kiba were battling at the very last block and I had to suggest to them not to write the first digit.  So "3.45" was ".45" for instance
 342 2010-12-23 06:57:52 <nanotube> i saw the full history, though i wasn't at the comp. :)
 343 2010-12-23 06:58:13 <nanotube> .45 is not appreciably faster than 3.45
 344 2010-12-23 06:58:14 <grondilu> still, I think fast typing is important.
 345 2010-12-23 06:59:08 <grondilu> I think .45 is faster than 3.45, especially if you have to type it multiple times.
 346 2010-12-23 07:01:16 <grondilu> there was some confusion only when Kiba wrote "10" when the highest bid was 3.43 or something.  He should have written 10.00 to avoid confusion.   There are just a few conventions that should be specified.
 347 2010-12-23 07:03:34 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 348 2010-12-23 07:03:41 <grondilu> the "+1" function would be especially usefull.  We obviously can't do that with only humans involved, because it woudl require too much quick mental computation.  But a robot would immediately do the addition and notify everyone of the new highest bid.
 349 2010-12-23 07:04:42 darrob has joined
 350 2010-12-23 07:05:13 <nanotube> yea, we could do +x meaning "add x to previous high bid"
 351 2010-12-23 07:05:21 <grondilu> exactly
 352 2010-12-23 07:05:56 <grondilu> and the robot would immediately post "alice leads at XXX BTC"
 353 2010-12-23 07:06:10 <nanotube> right
 354 2010-12-23 07:06:31 <nanotube> and even do automatic auction termination. based either on block posting, or clocktime
 355 2010-12-23 07:06:34 <grondilu> I'll make a thread in the forum to clarify those ideas.
 356 2010-12-23 07:07:22 <grondilu> yes of course, termination is one of main interest of using a robot.
 357 2010-12-23 07:07:33 <theymos> What if two people post within seconds such that the second transaction adds up to a larger bid than expected? Example: A bids 10, B bids 50, and C bids +1, thinking that he's actually bidding 11.
 358 2010-12-23 07:08:04 <nanotube> theymos: there's 'unbid' for that. :)
 359 2010-12-23 07:08:19 * grondilu doesn't like the "unbid" idea
 360 2010-12-23 07:08:27 <grondilu> a bid should be definitive.
 361 2010-12-23 07:08:31 <nanotube> grondilu: so what if someone makes a typo, and bids 110 instead of 10?
 362 2010-12-23 07:08:38 <nanotube> you make him stick by it? that's pretty unforgiving
 363 2010-12-23 07:08:48 <grondilu> true, that's a problem.
 364 2010-12-23 07:08:56 <nanotube> or bids 099 instead of 0.99 :)
 365 2010-12-23 07:09:00 <nanotube> there has to be unbid
 366 2010-12-23 07:09:17 <theymos> Maybe just within a few minutes of the bid.
 367 2010-12-23 07:09:22 <Kiba> "We can't trust companies. That why they need to be regulated!"
 368 2010-12-23 07:09:36 <Kiba> of course, what if the companies capture the regulator authority
 369 2010-12-23 07:09:39 <nanotube> theymos: but yes, that's why i was liking the 'full amount only' idea. reduces problems like that. :)
 370 2010-12-23 07:09:54 <grondilu> I guess with a robot there has to be a possibility for unbidding.
 371 2010-12-23 07:10:10 <Diablo-D3> http://www.simcop2387.info/pics/moot.png
 372 2010-12-23 07:10:35 <Diablo-D3> fucking gabe newell
 373 2010-12-23 07:11:55 <grondilu> we might also have the robot make some kind of a numeric check.  It would ask confirmation if the spread is higher than a certain amount.
 374 2010-12-23 07:12:25 <nanotube> meh, getting too complex... what if other people are bidding while bot is still waiting for confirmation?
 375 2010-12-23 07:13:34 <grondilu> doesn't matter, if intermediate bidding is higher, it will cancel confirmation of the other.  If it's lower, we can just forget about it.
 376 2010-12-23 07:14:43 <grondilu> Asking for confirmation does make sense.  It's pretty much what a human being does.  If someone tells me 1000 when I espect around 10, I say "WTF ?  can you confirm that please ?"
 377 2010-12-23 07:15:27 <grondilu> I'd prefer this solution to the unbidding.
 378 2010-12-23 07:16:09 <grondilu> Also, with the unbidding you have to keep a record of previous bids.  It may be even more complex than the confrmation method.
 379 2010-12-23 07:16:41 <nanotube> with confirmation, i'd also have to keep track of the unconfirmed bids.
 380 2010-12-23 07:16:59 <grondilu> only one.
 381 2010-12-23 07:17:17 <grondilu> and not all bids will require confirmation.
 382 2010-12-23 07:17:21 <grondilu> most won't.
 383 2010-12-23 07:17:22 <nanotube> u1: 10btc; bot: u1 confirm please; u2: 9 btc; bot: u2 confirm please...
 384 2010-12-23 07:17:35 <grondilu> no.
 385 2010-12-23 07:17:45 <nanotube> until u1 confirms, or fails to... u2 bid may still be valid.
 386 2010-12-23 07:18:51 <grondilu> A: 1 btc; bot: A leads at 1 btc;  B: 10000 btc;  bot: B: !? please type confirm to confirm 10000 btc.
 387 2010-12-23 07:19:12 <nanotube> right... now let's go on
 388 2010-12-23 07:19:16 <nanotube> C: 900btc
 389 2010-12-23 07:19:25 <nanotube> bot: C: ?? confirm
 390 2010-12-23 07:19:29 <grondilu> Has B confirmed ?N
 391 2010-12-23 07:19:29 <nanotube> right? :)
 392 2010-12-23 07:19:31 <nanotube> no
 393 2010-12-23 07:19:38 <nanotube> you didn't see me type B: confirm
 394 2010-12-23 07:20:16 <grondilu> yes, C must confirm since his bid is 900% increase of A's bid
 395 2010-12-23 07:20:39 <grondilu> we could make a limit of, say, 20% increase.
 396 2010-12-23 07:20:57 <grondilu> This limit could be set individually by each user.
 397 2010-12-23 07:21:28 <grondilu> I know it's sounds complex but not too much imo
 398 2010-12-23 07:21:43 <nanotube> limit by user, even? way too much complexity heh.
 399 2010-12-23 07:22:01 <grondilu> ok, one limit for everyone then.
 400 2010-12-23 07:23:12 <nanotube> i think for a first implementation... i'll just try a bid <fullamount> and an unbid with a max history of 10 bids.
 401 2010-12-23 07:23:21 <nanotube> and we'll see how it goes from there. :)
 402 2010-12-23 07:23:30 hacim has joined
 403 2010-12-23 07:23:58 <grondilu> It's actually what happens when I make an stock market order.  If my bid is higher than 110% of the last price, I receive a warning before I'm asked to confirm the order.
 404 2010-12-23 07:24:05 <hacim> howdy, the cli doesn't seem to have an option to list my addresses... I can create a new address with ./bitcoind getnewaddress, but generating a new one each time?
 405 2010-12-23 07:24:57 bd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 406 2010-12-23 07:25:45 <grondilu> again I don't like the unbid version.  I won't use it if you implement it.
 407 2010-12-23 07:26:15 <theymos> hacim: listreceivedbyaddress 0 true
 408 2010-12-23 07:26:36 <hacim> theymos: aha, thanks!
 409 2010-12-23 07:27:18 <nanotube> grondilu: mm well i'm going to sleep... i'll sleep on it. :)
 410 2010-12-23 07:27:26 <grondilu> ok
 411 2010-12-23 07:27:47 <grondilu> nanotube: use the /away command
 412 2010-12-23 07:28:26 <nanotube> why? my bnc will set me away automatically once i disconnect.
 413 2010-12-23 07:28:38 <grondilu> oh ok
 414 2010-12-23 07:29:55 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
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 416 2010-12-23 07:32:21 <Diablo-D3> man wheres slush
 417 2010-12-23 07:32:34 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: he's afk for the holidays.
 418 2010-12-23 07:32:52 <Diablo-D3> feh
 419 2010-12-23 07:32:55 <Diablo-D3> his fix isnt.
 420 2010-12-23 07:33:40 hacim has left ()
 421 2010-12-23 07:35:04 <Kiba> ever met a person that is wrong in almost every sentence he said?
 422 2010-12-23 07:35:51 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: strangely, yes
 423 2010-12-23 08:05:40 RazielZ has joined
 424 2010-12-23 08:06:18 <Keefe> anyone know what fee bitcoingateway charges for buying mtgox credit? BG is closed for maintenance so i can't see the details
 425 2010-12-23 08:15:16 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 426 2010-12-23 08:15:46 <EvanR> Kiba: 90% of the people in ##php #mysql and ##javascript
 427 2010-12-23 08:16:00 amiga4000 is now known as Amiga4000
 428 2010-12-23 08:16:20 <ne0futur> Kiba: ##economics is cool too to meet this kind of people :p
 429 2010-12-23 08:16:35 <Diablo-D3> ##economics is mostly full of retards
 430 2010-12-23 08:16:40 <EvanR> basically, people on the internet
 431 2010-12-23 08:26:41 <wumpus> not only on the internet
 432 2010-12-23 08:28:44 <EvanR> the internet aggregates wrong people
 433 2010-12-23 08:30:00 <wumpus> well also 'right' people but they're aways a miniority
 434 2010-12-23 08:30:42 TD has joined
 435 2010-12-23 08:31:55 larsig has joined
 436 2010-12-23 08:33:57 <BoBeR> FALALALALALALAH
 437 2010-12-23 08:34:32 <hundfred> BoBeR: ?
 438 2010-12-23 08:34:41 <BoBeR> holidays
 439 2010-12-23 08:34:49 <BoBeR> whats wrong with singing
 440 2010-12-23 08:35:07 <hundfred> +
 441 2010-12-23 08:35:16 <hundfred> BoBeR: just go ahead
 442 2010-12-23 08:35:35 <BoBeR> why thank you kind sir/madam
 443 2010-12-23 08:42:01 HarryS has quit (Quit: Äddi)
 444 2010-12-23 09:07:51 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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 454 2010-12-23 09:42:13 ebel has joined
 455 2010-12-23 09:45:31 <aximilation> is everyone gone for the night?
 456 2010-12-23 09:46:17 * aximilation finds a quiet corner and falls asleep as well
 457 2010-12-23 09:51:06 slush_cz has joined
 458 2010-12-23 09:51:11 fhdfhgh has joined
 459 2010-12-23 09:53:07 Lysacor has joined
 460 2010-12-23 09:53:58 <joe_1> yes
 461 2010-12-23 09:54:25 <joe_1> everyone is gone
 462 2010-12-23 09:54:53 larsig has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
 463 2010-12-23 09:55:02 <Amiga4000> not really
 464 2010-12-23 09:55:06 <wumpus> not really, it also isn't night here
 465 2010-12-23 09:55:25 <Amiga4000> i just got my 3rd block
 466 2010-12-23 09:55:32 larsig has joined
 467 2010-12-23 09:57:24 <Lysacor> various people show at various times
 468 2010-12-23 10:01:21 fhdfhgh has left ()
 469 2010-12-23 10:02:46 * TD awakifies
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 472 2010-12-23 10:08:38 MT`AwAy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 473 2010-12-23 10:08:52 MT`AwAy has joined
 474 2010-12-23 10:12:21 <slush_cz> ;;seen Diablo-D3
 475 2010-12-23 10:12:22 <gribble> Diablo-D3 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 55 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Diablo-D3> ##economics is mostly full of retards
 476 2010-12-23 10:12:47 <Lysacor> ;;bc,stats
 477 2010-12-23 10:12:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 99031 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1768 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15150.15312763
 478 2010-12-23 10:20:47 <Diablo-D3> slush_cz: Im right here
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 496 2010-12-23 11:53:12 <UukGoblin> is bitcoinexchange coming back, Sirius_?
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 515 2010-12-23 13:07:48 xelister has joined
 516 2010-12-23 13:08:04 mtgox has joined
 517 2010-12-23 13:10:34 <xelister> haha funny.  Look how this uneducated niggers from TSA abuse american peoples on own land :D The terrorists had won. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHxy5GattLY
 518 2010-12-23 13:11:39 <xelister> also, how pigs work in usa
 519 2010-12-23 13:13:04 <xelister> I restate that americans are buch of fat faggots
 520 2010-12-23 13:13:14 <xelister> even uneducated idiots from TSA can become their slave masters
 521 2010-12-23 13:15:25 <MT`AwAy> most of the americans who care are too lazy to actually do something, and the few who do something are too few
 522 2010-12-23 13:16:08 <xelister> yeap. Country of fat pussies sitting in front on TV
 523 2010-12-23 13:17:00 <MT`AwAy> stop hurting their freedom
 524 2010-12-23 13:21:01 Cusipzzz has quit ()
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 526 2010-12-23 13:33:27 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 527 2010-12-23 13:45:00 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
 528 2010-12-23 13:45:00 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.25,"low":0.241,"vol":1745,"buy":0.2457,"sell":0.2501,"last":0.25}}
 529 2010-12-23 13:55:18 <EvanR> there seems to be no end to the bitcoins worth 25 cents ;)
 530 2010-12-23 13:55:20 gavinandresen has joined
 531 2010-12-23 13:55:51 <EvanR> rebrand to 'bitquarters'
 532 2010-12-23 13:56:24 ArtForz has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
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 535 2010-12-23 13:58:36 <ThomasV> hello. besides private keys, what does wallet.dat contain ?
 536 2010-12-23 13:59:17 <edcba> candies !
 537 2010-12-23 13:59:28 <ThomasV> oh sure
 538 2010-12-23 14:01:37 Amiga4000 is now known as amiga4000
 539 2010-12-23 14:02:30 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: application settings and all transactions to or from your private keys.
 540 2010-12-23 14:03:01 <gavinandresen> If you're really curious, my python bitcointools can dump out all the data in wallet.dat in human-readable form
 541 2010-12-23 14:03:10 <ThomasV> I am
 542 2010-12-23 14:03:20 <ThomasV> where is it ?
 543 2010-12-23 14:03:35 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
 544 2010-12-23 14:03:36 <edcba> on the cloud
 545 2010-12-23 14:03:49 <ThomasV> great
 546 2010-12-23 14:04:28 <EvanR> to the cloud!!
 547 2010-12-23 14:05:24 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 548 2010-12-23 14:09:17 mahound has joined
 549 2010-12-23 14:09:31 <mahound> hello
 550 2010-12-23 14:09:33 Kiba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 551 2010-12-23 14:10:03 Kiba` has joined
 552 2010-12-23 14:11:08 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: is there an option to print out they full key pairs ?
 553 2010-12-23 14:11:32 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: nope.  Trivial to change the code to do that, though...
 554 2010-12-23 14:11:45 <ThomasV> okay
 555 2010-12-23 14:12:21 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 556 2010-12-23 14:13:49 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: why does it display more key pairs than adresses ?
 557 2010-12-23 14:14:56 <gavinandresen> bitcoin pre-generates keypairs (the "key pool") so wallet backups are valid for longer.  And it generates keypairs for change, and, if you are mining, keypairs for the miners.
 558 2010-12-23 14:16:41 <ThomasV> "keypairs for change" ? do you mean change as in spare change ?
 559 2010-12-23 14:17:10 <gavinandresen> Lets say you generate 50 bitcoins.  You have a value=50 "coin" (transaction, really) in your wallet.
 560 2010-12-23 14:17:43 <gavinandresen> Now you want to pay me 1 bitcoin.  That becomes a transaction with one input (+50) and two outputs:  1 bitcoin to me, and 49 in change
 561 2010-12-23 14:17:57 <gavinandresen> Bitcoin always uses a new keypair for the change
 562 2010-12-23 14:18:09 <ThomasV> I see
 563 2010-12-23 14:18:40 <ThomasV> so your tool does not tell me which keypairs are for what, does it ?
 564 2010-12-23 14:18:46 <gavinandresen> Nope
 565 2010-12-23 14:19:21 <ThomasV> is there a way I can delete an adress from the list with your tool ?
 566 2010-12-23 14:20:03 <gavinandresen> No.  Messing with the wallet is highly discouraged.
 567 2010-12-23 14:20:27 skeledrew has joined
 568 2010-12-23 14:21:06 <ThomasV> and is there a way to save it in human readable form, and to convert it back to its original format ?
 569 2010-12-23 14:21:27 <gavinandresen> No.
 570 2010-12-23 14:21:39 <ThomasV> hmmm
 571 2010-12-23 14:22:00 <gavinandresen> Are you worried about long-term storage of bitcoin value?
 572 2010-12-23 14:22:06 <ThomasV> exactly
 573 2010-12-23 14:22:18 <ThomasV> I would like to save it on a non-computer support
 574 2010-12-23 14:22:25 <ThomasV> eg a piece of paper
 575 2010-12-23 14:22:32 <ThomasV> and put it in a safe
 576 2010-12-23 14:22:37 <gavinandresen> See: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/2
 577 2010-12-23 14:22:40 hundfred has quit (Changing host)
 578 2010-12-23 14:22:40 hundfred has joined
 579 2010-12-23 14:22:46 <ThomasV> I can do this easily with ssh keypairs
 580 2010-12-23 14:22:53 <gavinandresen> (and vote it up)
 581 2010-12-23 14:23:02 <EvanR> you can easily base64 encode the file, print it out
 582 2010-12-23 14:23:15 <EvanR> on however many sheets of paper
 583 2010-12-23 14:23:20 <ThomasV> EvanR: yes, I thought about that
 584 2010-12-23 14:23:32 <ThomasV> but it might be quite long
 585 2010-12-23 14:23:34 <EvanR> dont know about reliably getting it back in
 586 2010-12-23 14:23:43 <ThomasV> well, with OCR
 587 2010-12-23 14:23:47 <EvanR> turn the printer to vector mode, reduce the font size
 588 2010-12-23 14:24:01 <UukGoblin> there was a project somewhere to print stuff on A4 and scan it back...
 589 2010-12-23 14:24:08 <gavinandresen> (and comment on it)
 590 2010-12-23 14:24:10 <UukGoblin> afaik it squashed up to 600k on 1 page
 591 2010-12-23 14:24:11 <EvanR> going to work
 592 2010-12-23 14:24:20 <gavinandresen> (and, if you're able, submit patches to implement it....)
 593 2010-12-23 14:24:35 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 594 2010-12-23 14:24:45 <ThomasV> but if I use my wallet, I guess the wallet.dat file will be deprecated
 595 2010-12-23 14:24:51 davex__ has left ("Ex-Chat")
 596 2010-12-23 14:24:58 davex__ has joined
 597 2010-12-23 14:25:28 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: exactly, it's no use saving a printout of your wallet in your safe if you're still SPENDING those coins....
 598 2010-12-23 14:25:34 <UukGoblin> http://www.ollydbg.de/Paperbak/index.html
 599 2010-12-23 14:25:53 <ThomasV> it's not alowing you to separate your identity from the contebt of your account
 600 2010-12-23 14:28:06 satamusic has joined
 601 2010-12-23 14:28:58 <ThomasV> what happens if I copy my wallet.dat on a different computer, and then do transactions. will the first wallet synchronize ?
 602 2010-12-23 14:30:50 <gavinandresen> Yes...
 603 2010-12-23 14:32:19 ArtForz has joined
 604 2010-12-23 14:32:24 <gavinandresen> But... it's generally not a good idea.  Eventually the two wallets will end up with different keypairs (as bitcoin generates new keys), and you'll eventually end up with a mess.
 605 2010-12-23 14:33:11 <ThomasV> unless the first wallet did not generate any keypair because it was a paper printout in a safe ?
 606 2010-12-23 14:33:24 <ThomasV> or not ?
 607 2010-12-23 14:34:01 <gavinandresen> Sure, but the second wallet will continue to generate keypairs.
 608 2010-12-23 14:34:37 <gavinandresen> As a backup, printing out the wallet and depositing it in the safe (or just saving it on a USB stick and putting it in a safe) is a great idea.
 609 2010-12-23 14:35:48 <mahound> what should be an acceptable khash/s speed for a modern computer? cpu mining only
 610 2010-12-23 14:36:13 <gavinandresen> mahound: there's no such thing.  cpu mining isn't cost effective unless you get your electricity for free.
 611 2010-12-23 14:37:43 Kiba`` has joined
 612 2010-12-23 14:39:10 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: if the second wallet continues to generate keypairs, I guess that some of them are recoverable through synchronisation (those related to transactions) and some of them are not (if I create new adresses). is that correct ?
 613 2010-12-23 14:40:45 epicurus has joined
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 615 2010-12-23 14:41:29 <mahound> gavinandresen, is the bc exhange rate that bad right now?
 616 2010-12-23 14:41:30 Kiba` has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 617 2010-12-23 14:41:50 <ThomasV> mahound: the difficulty is high
 618 2010-12-23 14:42:05 <mahound> ThomasV, what do you mean?
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 620 2010-12-23 14:42:48 <ThomasV> mahound: http://nullvoid.org/bitcoin/difficultiez.php
 621 2010-12-23 14:44:59 <gavinandresen> ThomasV: I don't think I understand your question.   If the second wallet generates new keypairs that aren't backed up, and you restore your wallet from an old backup, then any coins sent to those keypairs (either addresses you gave out or change transactions from coins you sent) are lost.
 622 2010-12-23 14:46:04 <gavinandresen> I've been tempted to write a "permanent wallet" patch, and have bitcoin just re-use the same, oh, 100 or 1,000 keypairs forever....
 623 2010-12-23 14:46:50 <gavinandresen> Theoretically that makes it easier for somebody to figure out all of your addresses, and, therefore, able to figure out your bitcoin balance and all your transactions.
 624 2010-12-23 14:47:00 <mahound> so, what is the best way of getting bitcoins right now, besides selling stuff of course?
 625 2010-12-23 14:47:01 <mahound> :p
 626 2010-12-23 14:47:12 <gavinandresen> But in practice, I think 100 or 1000 addresses would give you pretty good anonymity.
 627 2010-12-23 14:47:14 <nanotube> mahound: buying them with dollars, probably. :)
 628 2010-12-23 14:47:21 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 629 2010-12-23 14:47:39 <nanotube> mahound: or if you have free electricity, join the ,,pool
 630 2010-12-23 14:47:39 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
 631 2010-12-23 14:47:56 <nanotube> gavinandresen: could be a 'nice option to have'
 632 2010-12-23 14:48:35 <mahound> i see
 633 2010-12-23 14:50:33 <ThomasV> there might be theoretical reasons why the keypairs associated to my adresses are not sufficient to use my coins ; but I just do not see it
 634 2010-12-23 14:51:11 asdf30 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 635 2010-12-23 14:52:23 skeledrew has joined
 636 2010-12-23 14:52:37 <EvanR-work> lol free electricity
 637 2010-12-23 14:52:49 <gavinandresen> ThomasV:  a bitcoin address IS the encoded hash of public key, so if you have the corresponding private key that is completely sufficient for using coins sent to that address.
 638 2010-12-23 14:53:10 <EvanR-work> mahound: bitcoingateway, buy coins with a credit card
 639 2010-12-23 14:53:26 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: so why does bitcoin need to generate new keypairs then ?
 640 2010-12-23 14:54:00 <ThomasV> you said it uses new keypairs for change
 641 2010-12-23 14:54:55 <jb55> this is the first time I've seen this while mining in the pool, what does it mean? http://cl.ly/31290S2200130H450G1m
 642 2010-12-23 14:55:07 <bd_> ThomasV: it doesn't need to, but if you use the same key for your change it's pretty obvious which output was change and which was the payment
 643 2010-12-23 14:55:15 <bd_> meaning it's a bit easier to track what you're doing
 644 2010-12-23 14:56:28 <gavinandresen> what bd_ said-- constantly generating new keypairs increases anonymity.
 645 2010-12-23 14:56:31 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 646 2010-12-23 14:56:45 <ThomasV> hmm at the expenses of safety
 647 2010-12-23 14:57:08 <bd_> safety?
 648 2010-12-23 14:57:37 <gavinandresen> Well, there's also the issue of what if a hacker gets at an old backup copy of your wallet?
 649 2010-12-23 14:57:56 <EvanR-work> is the old wallet useful?
 650 2010-12-23 14:58:00 satamusic has joined
 651 2010-12-23 14:58:03 <gavinandresen> There's the computer security principle that keys should be changed regularly, for safety.
 652 2010-12-23 14:58:03 <ThomasV> bd_: yes, I would like to be able to recover my coins from a predefined set of keypairs
 653 2010-12-23 14:58:23 <bd_> ThomasV: Well, you could in principle do that at the expense of anonymity
 654 2010-12-23 14:58:53 <bd_> EvanR-work: If any unspent coins remain tied to keys on the old wallet, the person holding the old wallet could spend them
 655 2010-12-23 14:58:54 <ThomasV> gavinandresen: sure but once every transaction is a bit extreme :-)
 656 2010-12-23 14:59:40 <EvanR-work> remember to encrypt backup copies ;)
 657 2010-12-23 14:59:43 <ThomasV> bd_: that's what I want. I want to store my old wallet in a safe
 658 2010-12-23 14:59:44 <gavinandresen> ThomasV:  agreed.   I think Satoshi erred too far on the side of anonymity....
 659 2010-12-23 14:59:46 <mahound> i have received a transaction that is shown as "unconfirmed"
 660 2010-12-23 14:59:49 <mahound> what does it mean?
 661 2010-12-23 15:00:04 <EvanR-work> ThomasV: but your old wallet is unusable
 662 2010-12-23 15:00:15 <EvanR-work> normally
 663 2010-12-23 15:00:19 <bd_> mahound: it means that the transaction has yet to be confirmed by other nodes. It will generally gain one confirmation per 10 minutes on average; the more confirmations it has, the harder it is to "undo" it
 664 2010-12-23 15:00:41 <bd_> EvanR-work: That's just a limitation of the current client. If you have the keys, you can reconstruct the transaction history from the block chain
 665 2010-12-23 15:00:50 <bd_> that said, this becomes increasingly unfeasible as the block chain becomes larger and larger
 666 2010-12-23 15:01:00 <mahound> bd_, but it's been more than 10 min already
 667 2010-12-23 15:01:17 <bd_> mahound: on _average_ 10 minutes
 668 2010-12-23 15:01:23 <bd_> it can go above or below
 669 2010-12-23 15:01:24 <ThomasV> EvanR: this is precisely why I think new keypairs should not be generated on each transaction
 670 2010-12-23 15:01:40 <bd_> ThomasV: ?
 671 2010-12-23 15:01:44 <mahound> bd_, yeah, but it's been liek twice that ;) anyway, i'll wait
 672 2010-12-23 15:02:55 <bd_> http://blockexplorer.com/ <-- last block was at 14:48:17UTC, was the txn after that?
 673 2010-12-23 15:03:25 skeledrew has joined
 674 2010-12-23 15:05:12 <ThomasV> gavinandresen:  I guess I will try to mess with the code so that my client does not use new keypairs for change; are there things that I need to know so that the network does not consider this as an attack ?
 675 2010-12-23 15:05:40 <gavinandresen> Nope.  Network doesn't care.
 676 2010-12-23 15:05:47 larsig has joined
 677 2010-12-23 15:05:59 <ThomasV> what are the files I should dig in ?
 678 2010-12-23 15:06:00 <EvanR-work> if you just use the same address for each transfer, will it still generate new keys?
 679 2010-12-23 15:06:28 <ThomasV> EvanR-work: yes, as far as I understood
 680 2010-12-23 15:07:32 <gavinandresen> ThomasV:  as a hack, I think having CWalletDB::KeepKey call CWalletDB::ReturnKey will do what you want.  But you might also want to change the timestamp on the key, so you rotate through your keypool keys.
 681 2010-12-23 15:07:42 <gavinandresen> (see db.cpp, around line 990)
 682 2010-12-23 15:09:00 <nanotube> gavinandresen: would be nice if that was a cli arg... 'bitcoind -reusekeys 1000' e.g., would not gen more than 1000 keys, and just reuse them from its pool.
 683 2010-12-23 15:09:39 <gavinandresen> nanotube: sure would!
 684 2010-12-23 15:11:14 <gavinandresen> Wouldn't be hard for an enterprising young C++ coder to submit a patch for that... hint... hint...    The hard part isn't writing the code, the hard part is doing lots of testing to make sure it behaves as expected, doesn't have some weird unintended consequence, etc etc.
 685 2010-12-23 15:11:25 <nanotube> right
 686 2010-12-23 15:11:56 <mahound> bd_, no, before
 687 2010-12-23 15:11:56 <nanotube> speaking of patches... :)
 688 2010-12-23 15:12:16 <mahound> bd_, anyway, i already have got 3 confirmations, so, getting closer
 689 2010-12-23 15:12:31 <xelister> I would code above for 2000 btc (in middle of 2011.1 - coz still super bussy with other work now)
 690 2010-12-23 15:13:06 <EvanR-work> the hard part is c++
 691 2010-12-23 15:13:23 <EvanR-work> cobol of the 90s
 692 2010-12-23 15:13:30 <xelister> EvanR-work: c++ rulez
 693 2010-12-23 15:13:41 <xelister> C is the cobol of 90s
 694 2010-12-23 15:13:48 <EvanR-work> uhm
 695 2010-12-23 15:13:48 <EvanR-work> no
 696 2010-12-23 15:14:09 <xelister> yea
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 699 2010-12-23 15:25:44 <Beeps> Hello everyone
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 709 2010-12-23 15:48:18 <ThomasV> does someone know why it was decided that the amount of bitcoins created is bounded ?
 710 2010-12-23 15:48:48 <Kiba``> Don't know. Ask satoshi
 711 2010-12-23 15:49:09 <ThomasV> is satoshi his nick ?
 712 2010-12-23 15:49:25 <Kiba``> nobody knows
 713 2010-12-23 15:49:48 <Kiba``> who Satoshi is
 714 2010-12-23 15:49:53 <mahound> ThomasV, to avoid inflation?
 715 2010-12-23 15:50:16 <ThomasV> mahadri: sure, but deflation is worse than inflation
 716 2010-12-23 15:50:43 <ThomasV> err, sorry, I meant mahound
 717 2010-12-23 15:51:44 <Kiba``> how can it be worse?
 718 2010-12-23 15:51:47 <Kiba``> deflation is occuring
 719 2010-12-23 15:51:57 <Kiba``> nobody in the bitcoin economy is worrying about it
 720 2010-12-23 15:52:59 <Kiba``> indeed, everyone expects the bitcoin economy is going to deflate
 721 2010-12-23 15:53:36 <mahound> makes sense, if the money supply is constant and there's value being introduced
 722 2010-12-23 15:54:54 <mahound> ThomasV, i guess a limitless money supply would imply an authority to increase/decrease it when needed
 723 2010-12-23 15:55:16 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 724 2010-12-23 15:55:26 <ThomasV> deflation is an incentive to keep your coins instead of spending them, and that seriously harms an economy
 725 2010-12-23 15:55:43 <ThomasV> mahound: not really
 726 2010-12-23 15:56:15 <sgornick> In the past 24 hours, Bitcoin "supply" inflated at the annual rate of 53%   (144 blocks @ 50 BTC = 7,200 BTC added.  4,950,000 minted so far.  7200/4950000 * 365 = 53%
 727 2010-12-23 15:56:15 <sgornick> And yet the USD/BTC is stable.
 728 2010-12-23 15:58:00 <ThomasV> yes, but I think that when we approach the limit of the finite supply, we will run into problems
 729 2010-12-23 15:58:07 <mahound> ThomasV,  is it an incentive to keep them? if prices are lowering... shouldn't people spend more
 730 2010-12-23 15:58:17 <mahound> ?
 731 2010-12-23 15:58:25 <Kiba``> finite supply is not a problem
 732 2010-12-23 15:58:33 <Kiba``> it's just a matter of moving decimal spaces
 733 2010-12-23 15:58:50 <Kiba``> and we add more decimal spaces if neccesary
 734 2010-12-23 15:59:01 <ThomasV> mahound: no, it is the opposite. if you hold coins and you believe that their value will increase, then you do not spend them
 735 2010-12-23 15:59:13 skeledrew has joined
 736 2010-12-23 15:59:26 <Kiba``> ThomasV: we all have to spend them, eventually. The point of money is not to gather "value", it is to purchase goods and services
 737 2010-12-23 15:59:28 satamusic has joined
 738 2010-12-23 15:59:44 <Kiba``> a person does not hold on to money as he starve. He will spend that money.
 739 2010-12-23 16:00:34 <ThomasV> Kiba``: a starvation economy is not exactly the best thing you can wish for yourself
 740 2010-12-23 16:00:47 <mahound> ThomasV, maybe for investors, but not for the regular consumer
 741 2010-12-23 16:00:52 <Kiba``> ThomasV: All I am saying is that bitcoiners won't starve themsleves
 742 2010-12-23 16:01:02 <Kiba``> they will purchase milks and other goods
 743 2010-12-23 16:01:07 <Kiba``> they won't wait forever
 744 2010-12-23 16:01:22 <mahound> well, i guess people won't be spending bitcoins on food that soon, but...
 745 2010-12-23 16:01:47 <albatross> umm...why not? bitcoin is a secondary currency. you can always buy necessities with primary currency. no reason to spend bitcoin if you think their value will go up
 746 2010-12-23 16:02:28 <mahound> albatross, yeah, that's what i meant with my last sentence
 747 2010-12-23 16:02:51 <Kiba``> well, some people in the bitcoin economy is going to spend some on something, anyway
 748 2010-12-23 16:03:17 <Kiba``> it's not a problem
 749 2010-12-23 16:04:13 <mahound> in any case, if people are not willing to spend money, more deflation will follow
 750 2010-12-23 16:04:14 <ThomasV> all I am saying is that an economy based on controlled inflation will grow faster
 751 2010-12-23 16:05:03 <Kiba``> ThomasV: there would be less of an incentive to save.
 752 2010-12-23 16:05:06 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 753 2010-12-23 16:05:08 <mahound> controlled inflation would lead for a fight for cpu power
 754 2010-12-23 16:05:16 <mahound> *to
 755 2010-12-23 16:05:27 <Kiba``> saving is necceary for an economic to grow anyway
 756 2010-12-23 16:05:39 <Kiba``> for an economy*
 757 2010-12-23 16:05:55 <ThomasV> Kiba``: only if savings are invested
 758 2010-12-23 16:06:03 <ThomasV> that's not the case here
 759 2010-12-23 16:06:17 <mahound> if mining compensates, people will just mine, to the point at which it compensates so much that cpu power is super expensive
 760 2010-12-23 16:06:18 <mahound> no?
 761 2010-12-23 16:06:25 <ThomasV> you just accumulate coins hoping for their value to increase
 762 2010-12-23 16:06:39 <Kiba``> ThomasV: well, you need saving for investment anyway
 763 2010-12-23 16:06:48 <ThomasV> mahound: yes, for the moment, because mining is still possible
 764 2010-12-23 16:07:06 <mahound> ThomasV, but controlled inflation would mean indefinite mining, no?
 765 2010-12-23 16:07:27 <Kiba``> you need some mining to process transaction, mahound
 766 2010-12-23 16:07:34 <ThomasV> mahound: the current scheme means indefininte mining too
 767 2010-12-23 16:08:11 <Kiba``> some people will invest money to build new business
 768 2010-12-23 16:08:14 <Kiba``> some people won't.
 769 2010-12-23 16:08:56 <Kiba``> of course, there will be less investment, but it will be conservative ones..
 770 2010-12-23 16:09:06 <Kiba``> dumb investment are less likely to succeed
 771 2010-12-23 16:09:22 <mahound> ThomasV, yes, but as difficulty grows, the amount of money created by mining decreases as well, no?
 772 2010-12-23 16:09:42 <Kiba``> mining will increase until it become unprofitable
 773 2010-12-23 16:09:53 <Kiba``> some mine so they can ensure the integrity of bitcoin
 774 2010-12-23 16:10:01 <ThomasV> mahound: yes, but mining remains indefininte, so that does not make a difference as long as indefininteness is concerned
 775 2010-12-23 16:10:43 <Kiba``> anyway, I don't see why deflation is a serious concern. The bitcoin economy is still expanding
 776 2010-12-23 16:11:21 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 777 2010-12-23 16:11:36 <ThomasV> Kiba``: I think you are wrong. in a normal economy, currency is added by the central bank, in order to trade the new goods that are created.
 778 2010-12-23 16:11:55 <ThomasV> deflation just paralyzes the economy. see 1929
 779 2010-12-23 16:12:07 <Kiba``> 1929 was a result of economic intervention
 780 2010-12-23 16:12:22 <ThomasV> hehe
 781 2010-12-23 16:12:51 <mahound> ThomasV, i think deflation was more of a consequence of 1929 than a cause
 782 2010-12-23 16:13:06 <ThomasV> mahound: indeed, but it did not help
 783 2010-12-23 16:13:11 WonTu has joined
 784 2010-12-23 16:13:12 <Kiba``> and currently, the bitcoin economy had not been paralyzed as of yet
 785 2010-12-23 16:13:25 WonTu has left ()
 786 2010-12-23 16:13:38 <Kiba``> we're in a growth deflation economy anyway
 787 2010-12-23 16:13:49 <ThomasV> Kiba``: for the moment
 788 2010-12-23 16:14:04 <ThomasV> because mining is not neclectible
 789 2010-12-23 16:14:12 <mahound> so, buy more coins, we're all gonna be millionaires ;)
 790 2010-12-23 16:14:28 * Kiba`` collects bitcoin from selling his art
 791 2010-12-23 16:14:31 Kiba`` is now known as kiba
 792 2010-12-23 16:15:08 <mahound> kiba, oh really?
 793 2010-12-23 16:15:23 <ThomasV> mahound: /me is going to deflate your dreams
 794 2010-12-23 16:16:03 <ThomasV> if you want to be millionaires, you need the economy to grow, not to be paralyzed by deflation
 795 2010-12-23 16:16:42 <ThomasV> you can have temporary deflation, as the scope of the bitcoin economy grows. but once it reaches steady state, you must produce goods
 796 2010-12-23 16:16:42 <kiba> ThomasV: you can see bitcoiners investing in the growth of the economy in the Project Development section
 797 2010-12-23 16:16:52 <ThomasV> and for that, deflation is a terrible idea
 798 2010-12-23 16:17:16 <kiba> currently the goods that are being produced are not very capital intensive
 799 2010-12-23 16:18:37 <ThomasV> because the economy is tiny and legally, ahem, borderline
 800 2010-12-23 16:18:41 <ThomasV> :-)
 801 2010-12-23 16:18:50 <kiba> well
 802 2010-12-23 16:18:54 <kiba> we'll see what happens
 803 2010-12-23 16:19:19 <kiba> it might cause a revision in mainstream economic thought
 804 2010-12-23 16:19:58 <ThomasV> well, I think a revision in BTC creation is more likely to happen :-)
 805 2010-12-23 16:20:46 <albatross> lol...thomasv, i tend to agree
 806 2010-12-23 16:20:48 <ArtForz> not in bitcoin
 807 2010-12-23 16:21:00 <mahound> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral
 808 2010-12-23 16:21:32 <mahound> kiba: where's that "project development" section?
 809 2010-12-23 16:21:34 <albatross> thomasv: I also believe that the decentralized nature that is desired will disappear if bitcoin becomes mainstream
 810 2010-12-23 16:22:33 <ThomasV> I do not know about decentralized nature ; maybe it is sustainable
 811 2010-12-23 16:22:40 <kiba> mahound: it's in the forum
 812 2010-12-23 16:22:55 <kiba> p2p = decentralized...roughly speaking
 813 2010-12-23 16:23:37 <kiba> the problem with an inflationary currency is that early adopter incentive will disappear.
 814 2010-12-23 16:24:08 <ThomasV> kiba: that's your problem as an early adopter
 815 2010-12-23 16:24:28 <edcba> yes you still can have an advantage as being an early adopter
 816 2010-12-23 16:24:33 <kiba> ThomasV: it's an incentive problem..how do you get people to use your currency?
 817 2010-12-23 16:24:40 <ThomasV> with deflation, you cannot pay a fixed salary to someone
 818 2010-12-23 16:25:30 <kiba> I am not sure how it actually matter. With inflation, you have to increase
 819 2010-12-23 16:26:10 <ThomasV> and if people use your currency just because they believe they will become rich being early adopters, then it's not an economy, it's a ponzi scheme
 820 2010-12-23 16:26:42 <kiba> but it is an economy. People are trading goods for bitcoin.
 821 2010-12-23 16:26:50 <edcba> shouldn't a ponzi scheme make the last ppl completely losers ?
 822 2010-12-23 16:26:55 <edcba> here it wouldn't
 823 2010-12-23 16:27:44 <kiba> even the last people can get some bitcoin if they got desirable goods worth trading for
 824 2010-12-23 16:28:17 satamusic has joined
 825 2010-12-23 16:28:36 <kiba> beside, being an early adopter have large risk, mainly the currency might fail
 826 2010-12-23 16:28:48 <ThomasV> ok, a ponzi scheme might be an overstatement. but my point is that a controlled augmentation of the money supply would attract more people to it, rather than an economy where early adopters own everything
 827 2010-12-23 16:28:51 <edcba> and might is underrated here i think :)
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 829 2010-12-23 16:29:09 <edcba> (kiba's might)
 830 2010-12-23 16:29:21 <kiba> you cannot bootstrap an economy if you don't have early adopters
 831 2010-12-23 16:29:38 <kiba> or it loses more people than it gain
 832 2010-12-23 16:30:17 <edcba> yes i don't see a more realistic apt bootstrapping scheme
 833 2010-12-23 16:30:21 <ThomasV> ok, I have to go now. bbl
 834 2010-12-23 16:30:31 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 835 2010-12-23 16:30:42 <ArtForz> hmmm, wouldn't the same argument work for(against?) gold as currency?
 836 2010-12-23 16:32:01 <edcba> anyway i think bitcoin will fail technically :)
 837 2010-12-23 16:32:21 <kiba> we don't know
 838 2010-12-23 16:32:30 <edcba> i know i think that :)
 839 2010-12-23 16:32:56 <kiba> beside, how do you propose to have capital intensive projects without saving?
 840 2010-12-23 16:33:29 <edcba> you can work off hour on that
 841 2010-12-23 16:33:35 <edcba> keeping your day job
 842 2010-12-23 16:33:50 fabianhjr has joined
 843 2010-12-23 16:33:54 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
 844 2010-12-23 16:34:09 <kiba> your job earn you some money, which some of it goes into saving
 845 2010-12-23 16:34:49 <fabianhjr> ? You mean mining? Yeah, the pool just found a block! Though, I still have to wait for it to mature.
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 847 2010-12-23 16:35:23 <edcba> anyway economic theories aren't really interesting
 848 2010-12-23 16:35:47 <edcba> all economic ppl here just want to do it their own way
 849 2010-12-23 16:36:03 <edcba> they don't want to see the result of the experiment here :)
 850 2010-12-23 16:36:33 <edcba> i think they are just pissed because they weren't early adopters
 851 2010-12-23 16:36:46 skeledrew has joined
 852 2010-12-23 16:37:46 <edcba> if they know it will fail they'd better the next bitcoin iteration with their own parameters
 853 2010-12-23 16:37:52 <edcba> +prepare
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 855 2010-12-23 16:38:41 <sec^nd> hi
 856 2010-12-23 16:38:44 <sec^nd> where is bitcoin market ?
 857 2010-12-23 16:39:02 <kiba> bitcoinmarket.com
 858 2010-12-23 16:39:17 <sec^nd> heh nvm
 859 2010-12-23 16:39:18 <edcba> i think it needs a less complicated url
 860 2010-12-23 16:39:22 <sec^nd> it was https and www.
 861 2010-12-23 16:39:24 <Guest36632> it amazes me how people desire inflation over deflation
 862 2010-12-23 16:39:24 <edcba> it's too hard to memorize
 863 2010-12-23 16:39:41 <Guest36632> inflation is so socially destructive and always favors a select class
 864 2010-12-23 16:40:02 <kiba> where would capital come from if your saving is eroded?
 865 2010-12-23 16:40:09 <kiba> and most of your projects look profitable?
 866 2010-12-23 16:40:13 <Guest36632> exactly
 867 2010-12-23 16:40:54 <Guest36632> inflation redistributes real wealth from general users to insiders. deflation makes everyone's money increase in value equally
 868 2010-12-23 16:41:05 <edcba> ok should our universe inflates or deflates ?
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 870 2010-12-23 16:41:34 <Guest36632> btc has all the ingredients for a fantastic success story..at least economically
 871 2010-12-23 16:41:50 <kiba> if everyone save, everyone win!
 872 2010-12-23 16:42:07 <kiba> if everyone borrows in an inflationary economy, everyone win?
 873 2010-12-23 16:42:10 <albatross> guys...it's not like all this is just theorizing. This is based on economic knowledge and practice over hundreds of years. Deflation IS bad. Mild inflation IS good. These are fact
 874 2010-12-23 16:42:22 <fabianhjr> kiba, wait, wouldn't that stall the economy? Bitcoins need transactions to be made!
 875 2010-12-23 16:42:32 <Guest36632> false statement albatross
 876 2010-12-23 16:42:37 <albatross> kiba: if everyone saves then nobody would be buying anything...it stalls the economy
 877 2010-12-23 16:42:40 <kiba> albatross: economic reasoning is based on logics
 878 2010-12-23 16:43:04 <kiba> albatross: it does not, everyone need to buy milks, foods, and eggs..
 879 2010-12-23 16:43:06 <kiba> it just mean
 880 2010-12-23 16:43:13 <kiba> that your time preference is a bit longer
 881 2010-12-23 16:43:15 <Guest36632> the last 100 years have been extremely destructive for the common man
 882 2010-12-23 16:43:33 <kiba> Guest36632: destructive? we're getting richer
 883 2010-12-23 16:43:39 <kiba> but saving kinda sucks.
 884 2010-12-23 16:43:44 <albatross> yes...so everyone would just buy necessities. what about guys who only know how to write computer software or do science or other shit that is not necessary. they would not get paid
 885 2010-12-23 16:43:56 <kiba> wtf?
 886 2010-12-23 16:43:58 <Guest36632> we're richer in spite of destructive inflation
 887 2010-12-23 16:44:06 <kiba> albatross: some people like games
 888 2010-12-23 16:44:16 <kiba> they can't wait for it
 889 2010-12-23 16:44:26 <kiba> that why you see lot of people buying expensive game when they could have wait later
 890 2010-12-23 16:44:30 <edcba> albatross: the problem is economy are based on real economies, not reproductibles ones
 891 2010-12-23 16:44:58 <albatross> edcba: i don't understand. clarify?
 892 2010-12-23 16:44:59 <Guest36632> anyway the hoarding/savings issue will go away as new institutions develop to lend out saved btc (btc banks)
 893 2010-12-23 16:45:04 <kiba> nobody jsut buy neccesarites
 894 2010-12-23 16:45:07 <kiba> that would assume
 895 2010-12-23 16:45:08 <edcba> you need controlled economy if you want to experiment/validate theories
 896 2010-12-23 16:45:19 <kiba> that human beings can just get by with mere neccesaries!
 897 2010-12-23 16:45:22 <kiba> what nonsense!
 898 2010-12-23 16:45:23 <kiba> they want sex
 899 2010-12-23 16:45:27 <kiba> they want entertainment
 900 2010-12-23 16:45:31 <kiba> and all these things
 901 2010-12-23 16:45:48 <ArtForz> hookers and blow?
 902 2010-12-23 16:45:53 <kiba> Exactly!
 903 2010-12-23 16:45:54 <albatross> kiba: if my btc will get me one hooker today but three hookers tomorrow, why would i get one hooker today?
 904 2010-12-23 16:46:06 <kiba> because, you prefer a hooker NOW
 905 2010-12-23 16:46:10 <Guest36632> haha
 906 2010-12-23 16:46:10 <albatross> lol
 907 2010-12-23 16:46:17 <Guest36632> time preference baby
 908 2010-12-23 16:46:17 <fabianhjr> kiba: saving to a degree is good. Telling people to 'save' on depressions imho is bad. Many businesses can break because of this in my point of view.
 909 2010-12-23 16:46:26 <edcba> albatross: some study suggest extrovert ppl prefer to have one today than three tomorrow
 910 2010-12-23 16:46:31 <edcba> and they are happier
 911 2010-12-23 16:46:39 <Guest36632> that's only because we have a controlled banking system
 912 2010-12-23 16:46:49 <edcba> because they won't wait angerly for the 3 hookers
 913 2010-12-23 16:46:50 <kiba> all things being equal
 914 2010-12-23 16:46:59 <kiba> human beings prefere things RIGHT NOW rather than later
 915 2010-12-23 16:47:05 <kiba> that is time preference theory
 916 2010-12-23 16:47:08 <Guest36632> if we had free floating interest rates -> more savings = low interest rates discourgaing further savings
 917 2010-12-23 16:47:26 <Guest36632> less savings = higher interest rates encouraging more savings
 918 2010-12-23 16:47:36 <mahound> kiba, if they didn't, people would be actually saving money, and we all can see they're not
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 920 2010-12-23 16:52:37 <kiba> people assume that human being's time preference extend forever and ever
 921 2010-12-23 16:52:42 <kiba> of course, that's a bad assumption
 922 2010-12-23 16:52:51 <Guest36632> it seems to be a prevalent myth
 923 2010-12-23 16:53:26 <kiba> you know, we have a FINITE lifespan
 924 2010-12-23 16:53:33 <Guest36632> anyway, i think the killer application of btc will be smart contracts
 925 2010-12-23 16:53:45 <fabianhjr> What ya mean?
 926 2010-12-23 16:53:53 <Guest36632> it looks like satoshi had this in mind when he created the scripting system
 927 2010-12-23 16:54:24 <Guest36632> automatic escrows, third party arbitration, all manner of contractual arrangements enforced by the btc system
 928 2010-12-23 16:55:13 <Guest36632> the need for costly government courts/police will go down as people can have trust through btc smart contract arrangements
 929 2010-12-23 16:55:28 <Guest36632> a true agorist revolution
 930 2010-12-23 16:56:24 <Guest36632> imo, satoshi's scope of vision appears to be extremely vast
 931 2010-12-23 16:57:15 <Guest36632> future lawyers will be btc hackers
 932 2010-12-23 16:57:43 <kiba> the future will be regulated by algorithms!
 933 2010-12-23 16:59:36 <Guest36632> cryptoanarchy
 934 2010-12-23 16:59:51 <wumpus> yeah he is quite visionary
 935 2010-12-23 16:59:57 * kiba imagine a graphic novel with a cryptoanarchy
 936 2010-12-23 17:01:49 <Guest36632> i really wonder what satoshi's background is
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 938 2010-12-23 17:02:07 <kiba> he's probably a cipherpunk
 939 2010-12-23 17:02:17 <kiba> err cypherpunk
 940 2010-12-23 17:02:44 <kiba> my grpahic novel would start off with a PDA
 941 2010-12-23 17:03:19 <kiba> disposing of a corporation's CEO for attempt takeover of a small home in the middle of a business district
 942 2010-12-23 17:03:40 <Guest36632> if he's a cyperpunk, he/she must be in his 30s-40s i guess
 943 2010-12-23 17:03:57 <Guest36632> haha that would be awesome kiba
 944 2010-12-23 17:04:25 <Guest36632> even better if he's a state agent
 945 2010-12-23 17:04:46 <Guest36632> final stages of alongside night
 946 2010-12-23 17:04:49 <kiba> meh
 947 2010-12-23 17:04:56 <kiba> he's just a smiley evil CEO
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 967 2010-12-23 17:56:49 <mahound> is there any other way to get data about the network (last transactions etc) without having a client running?
 968 2010-12-23 17:57:04 <mahound> i mean, some kind of http gateway, etc
 969 2010-12-23 17:57:06 <Asphodelia> http://blockexplorer.com/
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 971 2010-12-23 17:59:27 <mahound> hm... it'd be nice to have this in json or so :/
 972 2010-12-23 18:02:42 <Asphodelia> What's your ultimate goal?
 973 2010-12-23 18:03:05 <mahound> i wanted to do some stats on the evolution of the economy
 974 2010-12-23 18:04:55 utyut has joined
 975 2010-12-23 18:06:10 <donpdonp> mahound: http://blockexplorer.com/q
 976 2010-12-23 18:06:43 <Asphodelia> If you want historical data, probably you should write a script to parse your local copy of the blockchain.
 977 2010-12-23 18:06:51 <mahound> ok, thanks :)
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 985 2010-12-23 18:18:52 <albatross> it's been 35 minutes since last block..crazy
 986 2010-12-23 18:21:18 <kiba> probabilities
 987 2010-12-23 18:22:22 <albatross> it's a long time to wait for confirmation :(
 988 2010-12-23 18:28:36 satamusic has joined
 989 2010-12-23 18:34:40 <nanotube> ;;bc,blocks
 990 2010-12-23 18:34:40 <gribble> 99083
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1000 2010-12-23 18:56:29 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 155000
1001 2010-12-23 18:56:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 155000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 4 days, 15 hours, 29 minutes, and 8 seconds
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1028 2010-12-23 20:08:37 <thrashaholic> dwdollar1: thanks for mentioning bitcoin on ZH
1029 2010-12-23 20:08:51 <dwdollar1> haha!
1030 2010-12-23 20:08:53 <thrashaholic> and i mean that in the most sarcastic way possible.
1031 2010-12-23 20:08:55 <dwdollar1> you saw that huh?
1032 2010-12-23 20:09:00 <thrashaholic> of course i did
1033 2010-12-23 20:09:00 <thrashaholic> :)
1034 2010-12-23 20:09:26 <thrashaholic> kucinich used to be alright in my book - for a socialist
1035 2010-12-23 20:09:32 <thrashaholic> now im gonna have to hate on him.
1036 2010-12-23 20:09:43 mndrix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1037 2010-12-23 20:10:11 <thrashaholic> wtf is  up with this new collapsed thread bullshit
1038 2010-12-23 20:10:14 <thrashaholic> can't turn it off
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1045 2010-12-23 20:11:55 <thrashaholic> dwdollar1: better get your ass back on that thread and defend it, im not going to because i dont log into zh unless it's to troll statists.
1046 2010-12-23 20:12:13 <dwdollar1> I was just looking at the comments.
1047 2010-12-23 20:12:32 <dwdollar1> I get tired of refuting the same crap over and over.
1048 2010-12-23 20:14:56 <nanotube> linky, anyone? :)
1049 2010-12-23 20:15:30 <dwdollar1> http://www.zerohedge.com/article/contrarian-take-dennis-kucinichs-recent-attempt-end-fed#comments
1050 2010-12-23 20:15:49 satamusic_ has joined
1051 2010-12-23 20:17:11 <thrashaholic> nanotube, im surprised you don't read zh day and night like i do lol
1052 2010-12-23 20:17:20 <thrashaholic> being a real economist and all =D
1053 2010-12-23 20:18:01 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1054 2010-12-23 20:18:43 <newsham> zerohedge is amusing, but I wouldnt base a portfolio on it.
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1059 2010-12-23 20:20:28 <thrashaholic> only an idiot would
1060 2010-12-23 20:22:50 <dwdollar1> I left a little something
1061 2010-12-23 20:23:14 <kiba> the CIA have the WTF
1062 2010-12-23 20:23:28 <kiba> WTF standing for Wikileak Task Force
1063 2010-12-23 20:23:31 <dwdollar1> I'm addicted to zerohedge too
1064 2010-12-23 20:26:41 <thrashaholic> lol
1065 2010-12-23 20:26:49 <thrashaholic> you mean the CIA has the Wikileaks - period
1066 2010-12-23 20:27:07 <thrashaholic> COINTELPRO bitches
1067 2010-12-23 20:27:09 <thrashaholic> alive and well
1068 2010-12-23 20:28:59 <thrashaholic> ugh you're going to make me login dwdollar1
1069 2010-12-23 20:29:25 <dwdollar1> sorry, heh
1070 2010-12-23 20:30:15 <EvanR-work> dwdollar1: bitcoin is fiat?
1071 2010-12-23 20:30:41 <dwdollar1> well, we don't all agree:)
1072 2010-12-23 20:30:43 finn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1073 2010-12-23 20:30:54 <EvanR-work> as fiat as gold i guess
1074 2010-12-23 20:31:04 <dwdollar1> I don't like the term fiat at all actually.
1075 2010-12-23 20:31:16 <dwdollar1> but people use it all the time
1076 2010-12-23 20:31:59 <EvanR-work> since getting into bitcoin ive had to fend off at least three occasions of people claiming that gold has intrinsic value
1077 2010-12-23 20:32:11 <EvanR-work> is this widespread?
1078 2010-12-23 20:32:23 sec^nd has joined
1079 2010-12-23 20:32:55 <EvanR-work> (as opposed to bitcoin which supposedly has none)
1080 2010-12-23 20:33:24 <EvanR-work> zerohedge seems to like gold
1081 2010-12-23 20:33:32 <dwdollar1> I don't believe in intrinsic value but I think that's a minority opinion, even here
1082 2010-12-23 20:33:54 <dwdollar1> It seems most people think it's backed by power usage.
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1085 2010-12-23 20:34:07 <ArtForz> I dont think intrinsic value affects usefulness of a currency much
1086 2010-12-23 20:34:07 <EvanR-work> lol
1087 2010-12-23 20:34:17 <wumpus> intrinsic value is a philosophical concept anyway
1088 2010-12-23 20:34:23 <wumpus> ArtForz: exactly
1089 2010-12-23 20:34:34 <EvanR-work> bitcoins cant be redeemed for a fixed amount of energy
1090 2010-12-23 20:35:21 <wumpus> but does energy have intrinsic value?
1091 2010-12-23 20:35:57 <EvanR-work> well a lightning bolt just blew up my house, thats a lot of negative value
1092 2010-12-23 20:36:10 <wumpus> hehe
1093 2010-12-23 20:36:34 <wumpus> so buying bitcoins should actually give me money
1094 2010-12-23 20:36:45 <wumpus> because they have negative intrinsic value :P
1095 2010-12-23 20:37:31 <EvanR-work> what i was trying to say was energy is only as valuable as it is useful to you or something who will trade. the famous einstein mass-energy of a penny is phenomenal and essentially useless
1096 2010-12-23 20:38:16 <wumpus> well if you want to create mass bitcoins energy value would be neglectible
1097 2010-12-23 20:38:32 larsivi has joined
1098 2010-12-23 20:38:33 <wumpus> c^2 is a lot :)
1099 2010-12-23 20:39:39 <dwdollar1> But on the flip side, it could be this belief of intrinsic value that makes currency possible.  Otherwise people would prefer barter.
1100 2010-12-23 20:40:04 <EvanR-work> i thought currency was for convenience
1101 2010-12-23 20:40:17 <EvanR-work> a representation of barter
1102 2010-12-23 20:40:19 <wumpus> so you need a 'belief' to use currency at all?
1103 2010-12-23 20:40:44 <dwdollar1> maybe
1104 2010-12-23 20:41:02 <wumpus> well, in a way you are right, currencies are based on trust in  a central bank
1105 2010-12-23 20:41:05 <wumpus> but that's not intrinsic value
1106 2010-12-23 20:41:28 <EvanR-work> they used to be based on trust in gold
1107 2010-12-23 20:41:45 <wumpus> that's a long time ago
1108 2010-12-23 20:41:51 <wumpus> and only in the US, I think
1109 2010-12-23 20:42:01 <thrashaholic> no
1110 2010-12-23 20:42:03 <EvanR-work> no the gold standard was widespread
1111 2010-12-23 20:42:08 <EvanR-work> also silver
1112 2010-12-23 20:42:14 <thrashaholic> you're a little lax on your monetary history there, wumpus
1113 2010-12-23 20:42:31 <wumpus> yeah that could be true :)
1114 2010-12-23 20:42:49 <kiba> intristic value
1115 2010-12-23 20:42:58 <thrashaholic> america originally had a pure fiat system: colonial scrip, which was essentially the real reason for the revolution
1116 2010-12-23 20:43:06 <wumpus> I know we had gold currency here at some point in history not to long ago in the netherlands, but I don't know whether the non-gold currency was ever redeemable for gold
1117 2010-12-23 20:43:11 <kiba> we could use bitcoin blockchain as a time stamping service
1118 2010-12-23 20:43:41 <thrashaholic> the constitution mandates a bi-metallic standard, or a silver standard depending on how you interperet it
1119 2010-12-23 20:44:05 <thrashaholic> most of the smart founders were against both fiat and gold backed currencies
1120 2010-12-23 20:44:07 <kiba> intristic value is really what allow currencies to bootstrap from a BARTER economy
1121 2010-12-23 20:44:10 <kiba> we don't live in one
1122 2010-12-23 20:44:35 <sec^nd> hello
1123 2010-12-23 20:44:39 sef_ has joined
1124 2010-12-23 20:45:00 <kiba> gold is excellent for that because in an event of an economic collapse..it would be the currency of choice...
1125 2010-12-23 20:45:17 <thrashaholic> gold only has that status because of history
1126 2010-12-23 20:45:21 <thrashaholic> it could've been anything
1127 2010-12-23 20:45:27 <thrashaholic> but since it does, well it does
1128 2010-12-23 20:45:38 <thrashaholic> thousands of years of collective memory cant be changed
1129 2010-12-23 20:46:03 <thrashaholic> humans love shiny rocks
1130 2010-12-23 20:46:07 <thrashaholic> must be in our dna.
1131 2010-12-23 20:46:42 <wumpus> kiba: that depends, it could just as well be bottle caps :)
1132 2010-12-23 20:47:18 <sec^nd> oooohhh shiny        my precious
1133 2010-12-23 20:47:37 <wumpus> everything that is hard to produce after a collapse could be 'currency'
1134 2010-12-23 20:47:54 Sapians has joined
1135 2010-12-23 20:47:57 <sec^nd> wine
1136 2010-12-23 20:47:59 <wumpus> I don't get people's obsession with gold sometimes
1137 2010-12-23 20:48:03 <sec^nd> food
1138 2010-12-23 20:48:06 <sec^nd> barter system
1139 2010-12-23 20:48:27 Cdh has quit (2!~cdh@p57B44313.dip.t-dialin.net|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1140 2010-12-23 20:48:33 <ArtForz> wumpus: same
1141 2010-12-23 20:48:33 <sef_> food and wine spoil
1142 2010-12-23 20:48:45 <sec^nd> is there a bitcoin site in i2p ?
1143 2010-12-23 20:48:53 <sef_> bottle caps cannot be easily divided
1144 2010-12-23 20:49:10 <wumpus> gold coins can also be easily divided and 'scraped'
1145 2010-12-23 20:49:20 <wumpus> that was actually a big problem back when it was legal tender
1146 2010-12-23 20:49:46 <sef_> why is divisibility a problem? it makes trade easier
1147 2010-12-23 20:50:40 <wumpus> well it can be a problem because you can make smaller coins that look like the original ones
1148 2010-12-23 20:50:58 <sec^nd> skinnier
1149 2010-12-23 20:51:08 <wumpus> so you have to weigh very carefully, and even check the composition in case of gold
1150 2010-12-23 20:51:10 <sec^nd> cut quarter in half and now you have two
1151 2010-12-23 20:51:14 <sef_> true - but someone with a scale could guard against that
1152 2010-12-23 20:51:21 <sef_> right
1153 2010-12-23 20:51:46 <EvanR-work> if everyone accepts it, its currency. wine would be hard for everyone to accept
1154 2010-12-23 20:51:57 <thrashaholic> wumpus: composition check is done by weight
1155 2010-12-23 20:52:08 <EvanR-work> also making change
1156 2010-12-23 20:52:26 <thrashaholic> making change, and having smaller denominations is the reason you desire fractioning
1157 2010-12-23 20:52:41 <sef_> these are properties that gold has and explains its original adoption as money
1158 2010-12-23 20:52:49 <sef_> hence the 'obsession'
1159 2010-12-23 20:52:52 <thrashaholic> it is impossible to destroy
1160 2010-12-23 20:53:44 <sef_> of course, btc has these properties plus instantaneous electronic transport
1161 2010-12-23 20:53:57 <thrashaholic> of course
1162 2010-12-23 20:54:02 <thrashaholic> but it's not tangible or shiny ;)
1163 2010-12-23 20:54:06 * EvanR-work throws some gold into the ocean
1164 2010-12-23 20:54:07 <ArtForz> what is impossible to destroy?
1165 2010-12-23 20:54:19 <thrashaholic> gold, for all practical intents and purposes
1166 2010-12-23 20:54:27 <thrashaholic> you can't just burn it into nothing
1167 2010-12-23 20:54:30 <ArtForz> fission works
1168 2010-12-23 20:54:30 <thrashaholic> or smash it away
1169 2010-12-23 20:54:32 <sef_> yeah, btc doesn't have that weight in your hand feel
1170 2010-12-23 20:54:35 <thrashaholic> like i said
1171 2010-12-23 20:54:39 <thrashaholic> practical
1172 2010-12-23 20:54:43 <EvanR-work> ocean
1173 2010-12-23 20:54:47 <EvanR-work> we have several
1174 2010-12-23 20:54:49 <thrashaholic> its not destroyed is it?
1175 2010-12-23 20:55:01 <EvanR-work> as destroyed as bitcoins sent to a random address
1176 2010-12-23 20:55:03 <thrashaholic> it's sitting there on the ocean floor, ready for a treasure hunter to come and pick up
1177 2010-12-23 20:55:08 <thrashaholic> hardly
1178 2010-12-23 20:55:11 <kiba> bitcoin are never destroyed
1179 2010-12-23 20:55:11 <EvanR-work> maybe in the year 3000
1180 2010-12-23 20:55:16 <wumpus> you could dissolve it into the ocean
1181 2010-12-23 20:55:21 <wumpus> no way to get it back 
1182 2010-12-23 20:55:21 <kiba> only lost
1183 2010-12-23 20:55:24 <thrashaholic> you can't dissolve gold in the ocean
1184 2010-12-23 20:55:34 <kiba> remember
1185 2010-12-23 20:55:39 <wumpus> actually you can there's a lot of gold already in it
1186 2010-12-23 20:55:47 <thrashaholic> omg
1187 2010-12-23 20:55:49 <kiba> you can't destroy matter, right?
1188 2010-12-23 20:55:51 * thrashaholic facepalm
1189 2010-12-23 20:55:56 <kiba> well, you could convert it into energy
1190 2010-12-23 20:56:04 <EvanR-work> theres nuclear reactions
1191 2010-12-23 20:56:07 <kiba> in 50 years
1192 2010-12-23 20:56:09 <wumpus> you can't extract it though without taking more energy then you'd earn in gold
1193 2010-12-23 20:56:20 <kiba> you could have deepsea vessel that extract gold
1194 2010-12-23 20:56:58 <kiba> there's lot of energy reserve siting at the bottom of the ocean I think
1195 2010-12-23 20:57:01 <kiba> methane gas
1196 2010-12-23 20:57:41 <EvanR-work> cost of production isnt at issue, is it
1197 2010-12-23 20:57:48 <EvanR-work> i guess unless its zero
1198 2010-12-23 20:57:56 <wumpus> http://www.e-goldprospecting.com/html/extracting_gold_from_the_sea.html
1199 2010-12-23 20:59:49 <ArtForz> and yeah, nuclear works
1200 2010-12-23 21:00:06 <kiba> nuclear works?
1201 2010-12-23 21:00:32 <ArtForz> for destroying gold :P
1202 2010-12-23 21:00:39 <wumpus> anyway, why would you want to destroy a currency in the first place
1203 2010-12-23 21:00:39 <thrashaholic> its hardly practical
1204 2010-12-23 21:00:59 <ArtForz> 197 Au is stable, 198Au decays to 198Hg
1205 2010-12-23 21:01:18 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1206 2010-12-23 21:01:35 <kiba> mercury?
1207 2010-12-23 21:01:38 <ArtForz> yep
1208 2010-12-23 21:02:00 <ArtForz> backwards alchemy
1209 2010-12-23 21:02:07 <thrashaholic> haha
1210 2010-12-23 21:02:08 <kiba> lol
1211 2010-12-23 21:02:10 <thrashaholic> that's the easy part :)
1212 2010-12-23 21:02:14 Cdh has joined
1213 2010-12-23 21:02:32 <wumpus> heh
1214 2010-12-23 21:02:44 <Cdh> i think i should buy a nvidia card next
1215 2010-12-23 21:02:59 <wumpus> why?
1216 2010-12-23 21:03:01 <Cdh> http://pastebin.com/4zfHkqjv
1217 2010-12-23 21:03:02 <kiba> for bitcoin mining?
1218 2010-12-23 21:03:09 <Cdh> for any use
1219 2010-12-23 21:03:43 <wumpus> well yes nvidia drivers for linux are stable and work well
1220 2010-12-23 21:03:59 <wumpus> you can't say the same about ATI's crap :)
1221 2010-12-23 21:04:07 <ArtForz> removing one neutron would be kinda useful
1222 2010-12-23 21:04:09 <Cdh> BUG: scheduling while atomic: X/4405/0x00000002
1223 2010-12-23 21:04:11 <Cdh> seems serious
1224 2010-12-23 21:04:37 <ArtForz> 196Au decays to 196Pt (which is stable)
1225 2010-12-23 21:05:03 <wumpus> can you also make something decay into Au?
1226 2010-12-23 21:05:05 <kiba> Plotiumnum?
1227 2010-12-23 21:05:14 <ArtForz> Platinum
1228 2010-12-23 21:05:16 <kiba> ah
1229 2010-12-23 21:06:46 <wumpus> polonium is Po :)
1230 2010-12-23 21:06:50 <thrashaholic> ArtForz: get on that :)
1231 2010-12-23 21:11:25 <ArtForz> I think a few crazy russians already did
1232 2010-12-23 21:13:31 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1233 2010-12-23 21:13:37 <thrashaholic> fission platinoids
1234 2010-12-23 21:13:39 <Diablo-D3> I think I mau have fixed the fucking race issue
1235 2010-12-23 21:13:40 <thrashaholic> interesting
1236 2010-12-23 21:13:42 <Diablo-D3> ysing
1237 2010-12-23 21:13:44 <Diablo-D3> using
1238 2010-12-23 21:13:50 <Diablo-D3> entirely too much code
1239 2010-12-23 21:22:37 <ArtForz> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/20974/240793.aspx#240793
1240 2010-12-23 21:23:14 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1241 2010-12-23 21:25:04 sef_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1242 2010-12-23 21:30:07 <Diablo-D3> "That would be -1 times. It turned the computer on because it overheated?"
1243 2010-12-23 21:30:16 <Diablo-D3> that sounds like an nvidia feature >_>
1244 2010-12-23 21:30:41 <ArtForz> needs more bacon
1245 2010-12-23 21:31:44 <Diablo-D3> fuck
1246 2010-12-23 21:31:50 <Diablo-D3> someone gets to the nvidia joke at the bottom of the thread
1247 2010-12-23 21:31:58 <Diablo-D3> and executed it better than me
1248 2010-12-23 21:40:58 <Cdh> but nvidia cards do at least work
1249 2010-12-23 21:41:11 <Cdh> not the most efficient but they are stable
1250 2010-12-23 21:41:19 <Diablo-D3> work? stable?
1251 2010-12-23 21:41:21 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahah
1252 2010-12-23 21:41:39 <Cdh> this is the ati driver: http://pastebin.com/4zfHkqjv
1253 2010-12-23 21:42:13 <thrashaholic> blah
1254 2010-12-23 21:42:18 <Cdh> not even 3d usage, just a desktop without compositing and some windows
1255 2010-12-23 21:42:29 <Diablo-D3> Cdh: thats the kernel extra-bitching because you use a tainted module
1256 2010-12-23 21:42:44 <Diablo-D3> BUG: scheduling while atomic: X/4405/0x00000002
1257 2010-12-23 21:42:46 <Diablo-D3> the actual bug.
1258 2010-12-23 21:42:56 <Diablo-D3> and yes, its surprisingly harmless
1259 2010-12-23 21:43:00 <Cdh> it crashed X and left it frozen with the framebuffer
1260 2010-12-23 21:43:12 <wumpus> well nvidia drivers are pretty stable these days, ATI used to be shit, but they have slowly improved since AMD took them over as I've heard
1261 2010-12-23 21:43:14 <Diablo-D3> sounds like you fucked up, good job.
1262 2010-12-23 21:43:56 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1263 2010-12-23 21:44:00 <Cdh> and how can you be sure preempting an atomic operation will be harmless?
1264 2010-12-23 21:44:35 <Diablo-D3> because its fucking its own driver over
1265 2010-12-23 21:44:37 <wumpus> well given it crashed your system it's not harmless at all :)
1266 2010-12-23 21:44:42 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1267 2010-12-23 21:44:46 <Cdh> i could still ssh in...
1268 2010-12-23 21:44:56 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: well, it sounds like he hit the "change consoles while opencl is running" bug
1269 2010-12-23 21:45:17 <wumpus> oh man, does even that cause a crash?
1270 2010-12-23 21:45:22 <Cdh> i had no opencl application running. no opengl application
1271 2010-12-23 21:45:28 <wumpus> nvidia fixed that one years ago 
1272 2010-12-23 21:45:36 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: on some driver combinations it does
1273 2010-12-23 21:45:50 <Diablo-D3> and not even on all cards
1274 2010-12-23 21:45:56 <Diablo-D3> I have been completely unable to reproduce it
1275 2010-12-23 21:46:02 EvanR has joined
1276 2010-12-23 21:46:13 <Cdh> maybe they don't like defensive programming
1277 2010-12-23 21:47:16 <Diablo-D3> ATI doesnt
1278 2010-12-23 21:47:20 <Diablo-D3> AMD is fixing up the code base
1279 2010-12-23 21:47:39 <wumpus> finally
1280 2010-12-23 21:47:47 <Cdh> well, they are not doing it fast enaugh
1281 2010-12-23 21:48:03 <Diablo-D3> Cdh: no, but they ARE getting rid of the binary driver altogether fast enough
1282 2010-12-23 21:48:04 <wumpus> nah at least their hardware is the fastest bitcoin miner 
1283 2010-12-23 21:49:24 <Cdh> how long am i supposed to wait until there is proper video acceleration, opencl and opengl 2/3/4 support in the open source driver?
1284 2010-12-23 21:49:35 <wumpus> nvidia is king in floating point, but their integer ops are relatively pretty slow
1285 2010-12-23 21:49:48 <wumpus> waiting won't get you anywhere with open source
1286 2010-12-23 21:49:57 <wumpus> if it bothers you, help the dev team
1287 2010-12-23 21:50:10 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: lolno.
1288 2010-12-23 21:50:32 <Diablo-D3> nvidia sp fp is pretty slow per watt
1289 2010-12-23 21:50:38 <Diablo-D3> dp fp is disgustingly slow
1290 2010-12-23 21:50:49 <wumpus> not what i've heard
1291 2010-12-23 21:50:52 <ArtForz> yes
1292 2010-12-23 21:51:04 <Diablo-D3> they broke dp fp on consumer cards
1293 2010-12-23 21:51:20 <Cdh> as long as it's stable i'd prefer it
1294 2010-12-23 21:51:34 <Diablo-D3> so unless you have a tesla or a quadro, dp fp is like half as fast
1295 2010-12-23 21:51:42 <ArtForz> only tesla
1296 2010-12-23 21:51:47 <Diablo-D3> only tesla? wow
1297 2010-12-23 21:51:49 <Diablo-D3> thats even worse
1298 2010-12-23 21:51:55 <ArtForz> and it's 1/4 tesla speed = 1/8 SP
1299 2010-12-23 21:52:03 <ArtForz> tesla has DP = 1/2 SP perf, GTX4/5xx has DP = 1/8 SP perf
1300 2010-12-23 21:52:13 <ArtForz> *tesla fermi
1301 2010-12-23 21:52:18 <Diablo-D3> and 5xxx/68xx has 1/5th
1302 2010-12-23 21:52:23 <Diablo-D3> which beats the 1/8th by a wide margin
1303 2010-12-23 21:52:25 <wumpus> right
1304 2010-12-23 21:52:36 <Diablo-D3> and for those saying "well just byy a tesla then"
1305 2010-12-23 21:52:36 Slix` has joined
1306 2010-12-23 21:52:37 <ArtForz> ATI 58xx has 1/5,  69xx has 1/4
1307 2010-12-23 21:52:46 <Diablo-D3> I can buy like 3x as much radeon for that tesla
1308 2010-12-23 21:52:46 <wumpus> teslas are crazily expensive
1309 2010-12-23 21:52:48 <Diablo-D3> and win even harder
1310 2010-12-23 21:52:55 <ArtForz> 3x? make that 5x+
1311 2010-12-23 21:53:22 <ArtForz> a single tesla 2050 is in the 2kilobuck range
1312 2010-12-23 21:53:30 <Cdh> so you can get 3x as much crashes?
1313 2010-12-23 21:53:34 <wumpus> basically when you buy tesla's you're paying for support, mainly useful for corporations and such
1314 2010-12-23 21:54:33 thrashaholic has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1315 2010-12-23 21:54:42 <ArtForz> and even tesla DP is kinda slow compared to ATI
1316 2010-12-23 21:56:10 satamusic has joined
1317 2010-12-23 21:56:32 <ArtForz> DP: tesla C2050 = 257.6 GFLOPs, HD6970 = 337.9GFLOPs, HD5970 = 464GFLOPs
1318 2010-12-23 21:57:37 <ArtForz> and the 5970 can do another 1856GFLOPs SP on the XYZW units in parallel to DP on the T unit
1319 2010-12-23 21:58:57 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1320 2010-12-23 21:59:44 <xelister> PHP micro-job: PL-characters string is wrongly encoded. Instead of ł->Å� instead of ć->Å� instead of ę->Ä�; Anyone wanting to write php function that tames demages string and returns correct one? PM me with offer-price. This is a micro-job (needed 'right now') to speedup some of my work (Ive got too many :)
1321 2010-12-23 22:02:00 <xelister> its probably some double-encoded problem or iso-8859-2 or windows-1250 encoding raw re-encoded to UTF-8 or something. It should be simple (just make map of strings to convert back), but I need it fully done and tested and working to just copy&palce it without much talking (otehrwise I can do it myself in 20-60 minutes)
1322 2010-12-23 22:09:32 maximi89 has joined
1323 2010-12-23 22:24:16 noagendamarket has joined
1324 2010-12-23 22:24:44 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
1325 2010-12-23 22:24:44 noagendamarket has joined
1326 2010-12-23 22:30:54 <Diablo-D3> you know
1327 2010-12-23 22:30:58 <Diablo-D3> I wish tesla would sue nvidia
1328 2010-12-23 22:31:09 <Diablo-D3> clearly, its not a car.
1329 2010-12-23 22:31:14 <Diablo-D3> yet, it costs almost as much as one
1330 2010-12-23 22:33:01 <Cdh> hm... if i had a wish i would wish for other things
1331 2010-12-23 22:33:32 <Cdh> like i wish i could sue amd for not releasing a working driver
1332 2010-12-23 22:34:34 <EvanR> amd is not responsible for damages or injury caused by lack of working drivers or any other malfunction which is clearly its own fault
1333 2010-12-23 22:34:43 <EvanR> ______ sign here
1334 2010-12-23 22:35:12 <EvanR> ass covered
1335 2010-12-23 22:35:31 <xelister> I would like to have Ati software department burn in hell, for the buggy shit they release
1336 2010-12-23 22:38:07 <Diablo-D3> xelister: released, past tense
1337 2010-12-23 22:38:17 <Diablo-D3> Cdh: also, how do you plan on suing? amd is not a software company.
1338 2010-12-23 22:38:54 <xelister> Diablo-D3: even if newer drivers would be better - can't use them - for example because then newest opencl is shit
1339 2010-12-23 22:40:22 <Diablo-D3> xelister: except I now have 2.2 and 2.3 using zero cpu.
1340 2010-12-23 22:41:13 <Cdh> you suggest buying new hardware?
1341 2010-12-23 22:41:22 <xelister> Diablo-D3: 2.3 is good with dualcores like 5970?
1342 2010-12-23 22:41:25 <xelister> on linux
1343 2010-12-23 22:43:37 <Diablo-D3> 2.1 is still faster
1344 2010-12-23 22:45:16 dwdollar1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1345 2010-12-23 22:45:54 acous has joined
1346 2010-12-23 22:45:54 acous has quit (Changing host)
1347 2010-12-23 22:45:54 acous has joined
1348 2010-12-23 22:46:51 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1349 2010-12-23 22:47:44 <Diablo-D3> [12/23/10 5:44:10 PM] DEBUG: Attempt 105 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
1350 2010-12-23 22:47:45 <Diablo-D3> [12/23/10 5:44:10 PM] Block 105 found on ATI RV770 (#1)
1351 2010-12-23 22:47:48 <Diablo-D3> hrm we're good so far
1352 2010-12-23 22:49:33 maximi89 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1353 2010-12-23 22:50:20 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1354 2010-12-23 22:54:45 chuck251 has joined
1355 2010-12-23 23:04:17 Toadyonps3 has quit (Quit: So if a tree falls on Bill Gates in the forest,would anyone really care?)
1356 2010-12-23 23:20:17 <tcatm> It seems to be impossible to syncronize multiple outputs on ATI cards. I always get tearing artifacts when playing videos.
1357 2010-12-23 23:22:39 maximi89 has joined
1358 2010-12-23 23:28:33 <EvanR> what happens if someone tries to send me a hundred millionth of a bitcoin
1359 2010-12-23 23:31:46 <[Noodles]> it'll cause a fee of 0.01btc, so it doesnt make much sense
1360 2010-12-23 23:32:07 sipa has joined
1361 2010-12-23 23:33:06 <EvanR> where does that fee come from?
1362 2010-12-23 23:33:24 <EvanR> the client?
1363 2010-12-23 23:33:52 <EvanR> do you mean a fee of 0.00999999
1364 2010-12-23 23:34:33 <[Noodles]> no, 0.01btc, to send those 0.0099999btc would also cause a 0.01btc fee
1365 2010-12-23 23:35:01 Toadyonps3 has joined
1366 2010-12-23 23:35:08 <EvanR> so total money from my account is 0.01000001 ?
1367 2010-12-23 23:35:35 <EvanR> senders account*
1368 2010-12-23 23:35:50 <Asphodelia> Actually I think the client just refuses to attempt the transaction. A little window pops up saying "error in amount".
1369 2010-12-23 23:35:57 <[Noodles]> well, actually sub-cents will just vanish, so instead of paying an extra-fee, they will just pay their own value as fee
1370 2010-12-23 23:36:09 <EvanR> three different answers now
1371 2010-12-23 23:36:29 <Asphodelia> Try sending 0.001 to yourself, and see what happens.
1372 2010-12-23 23:36:29 <[Noodles]> and end up on the one wallet that generates the block containing that transaction
1373 2010-12-23 23:36:36 <EvanR> and i guessed two more apparently wrong answers
1374 2010-12-23 23:36:43 <EvanR> there needs to be a blog about this ;)
1375 2010-12-23 23:37:12 <EvanR> i will send 0.001 to myself
1376 2010-12-23 23:37:40 <[Noodles]> Current “Default” Rules for the regular Bitcoin client (Bitcoin 0.3.17):  0.01 BTC fee if sending any transaction less than 0.01 BTC. This is to help prevent DoS attacks against the network. ....
1377 2010-12-23 23:37:57 <EvanR> error in amount
1378 2010-12-23 23:38:01 <[Noodles]> wiki is your friend, http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=transaction_fee
1379 2010-12-23 23:38:24 Toadyonps3 has quit (Client Quit)
1380 2010-12-23 23:38:32 <EvanR> a 0.01 fee, so it costs you whatever you send + 0.01 ?
1381 2010-12-23 23:39:12 <EvanR> i have 3.19 beta
1382 2010-12-23 23:39:32 <nanotube> EvanR: see the ,,txfee wiki article
1383 2010-12-23 23:39:32 <gribble> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=transaction_fee
1384 2010-12-23 23:39:56 sgornick has joined
1385 2010-12-23 23:40:10 <[Noodles]> depends, i guess, if for example you generate sub-cents in a pool and try to send those sub-cents to anyone, they will just disappear and not causing a fee bigger than the amount to send
1386 2010-12-23 23:40:52 <Asphodelia> I get the same error again trying to send 0.011 though.
1387 2010-12-23 23:44:15 <[Noodles]> but why would anyone want to do that? i mean like paying $10 to send me $1? he could just send me 10 instead and keep the 1 for himself ^.^
1388 2010-12-23 23:44:44 <EvanR> i would do that if the damn thing im buying costs exactly 0.001 coin
1389 2010-12-23 23:45:00 <[Noodles]> but not if you have to pay 0.01 in fees
1390 2010-12-23 23:45:25 <EvanR> youre acting like the fee is immutable
1391 2010-12-23 23:45:47 <[Noodles]> it's not
1392 2010-12-23 23:45:54 <EvanR> great
1393 2010-12-23 23:45:58 <EvanR> glad to hear it
1394 2010-12-23 23:46:02 <[Noodles]> in a bitcoin-friendly future, it will for sure change
1395 2010-12-23 23:46:08 satamusic has joined
1396 2010-12-23 23:46:21 <[Noodles]> it's just a current implementation to prevent flooding-attacks
1397 2010-12-23 23:46:45 <EvanR> well 0.011 doesnt work either
1398 2010-12-23 23:48:13 <edcba> an inefficient implementation to prevent them
1399 2010-12-23 23:49:22 Toadyonps3 has joined
1400 2010-12-23 23:49:28 StrangeCharm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1401 2010-12-23 23:50:22 <[Noodles]> think of a better one and if you found one, tell devs about it
1402 2010-12-23 23:54:15 <EvanR> 'error this is an oversized transaction that reuqires a fee of 1.07'
1403 2010-12-23 23:54:25 <EvanR> how are some transactions bigger than others?