1 2010-12-24 00:01:33 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2 2010-12-24 00:02:27 <[Noodles]> they've got different INs and OUTs, http://blockexplorer.com/b/99117 last block, 4 transactions of diffenrent size
3 2010-12-24 00:02:42 maximi89 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4 2010-12-24 00:03:29 maximi89 has joined
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6 2010-12-24 00:07:09 <EvanR> from many sources
7 2010-12-24 00:07:19 <EvanR> and possibly to many destinations
8 2010-12-24 00:07:36 <EvanR> ah so a transaction isnt one to one
9 2010-12-24 00:09:48 <sipa> many transactions are even zero to one :)
10 2010-12-24 00:10:13 <MT`AwAy> mh
11 2010-12-24 00:10:27 <MT`AwAy> two outs doesn't mean transaction someone sent money to two ppl
12 2010-12-24 00:10:47 <EvanR> but it may
13 2010-12-24 00:13:13 <EvanR> The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
14 2010-12-24 00:13:19 <EvanR> xD
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16 2010-12-24 00:16:03 Cusipzzz has joined
17 2010-12-24 00:16:37 <kiba> The Russian have an impressive # of posts
18 2010-12-24 00:16:41 <kiba> 1074 posts
19 2010-12-24 00:16:44 <kiba> jesus
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22 2010-12-24 00:19:28 <BoBeR> the kiba have more
23 2010-12-24 00:21:00 Lysacor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
24 2010-12-24 00:21:11 <EvanR> uhm nanocoins
25 2010-12-24 00:21:22 <EvanR> 1 coin = 100,000,000 nanocoins
26 2010-12-24 00:21:35 <sipa> *10
27 2010-12-24 00:21:39 <EvanR> someone didnt read SI definition of nano xD
28 2010-12-24 00:22:06 <EvanR> the above definition is in the wiki, and makes sense given the smallest division of coin
29 2010-12-24 00:22:09 <EvanR> except its not nano
30 2010-12-24 00:24:31 <sipa> it's decananocoins!
31 2010-12-24 00:25:15 <kiba> I am FILTHY RICH!
32 2010-12-24 00:25:20 <kiba> I have 1 BTC
33 2010-12-24 00:25:26 <arcatan> off by one.. zero
34 2010-12-24 00:25:42 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
35 2010-12-24 00:25:43 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.25,"low":0.241,"vol":8610,"buy":0.2433,"sell":0.25,"last":0.25}}
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38 2010-12-24 00:33:25 <EvanR> kiba: is that all?
39 2010-12-24 00:33:40 * sipa like 10 BTC *WOW*
40 2010-12-24 00:33:44 <sipa> *has
41 2010-12-24 00:34:50 * donpdonp stares at the pile'o'btc
42 2010-12-24 00:35:04 <nanotube> i have about .5 btc on my pool balance :)
43 2010-12-24 00:35:19 <nanotube> that's like... 50million of the smallest units. heh
44 2010-12-24 00:35:35 <EvanR> yeah, nanocoins are AWESOME
45 2010-12-24 00:35:41 <donpdonp> nanotube: you're an optimist, i can tell :)
46 2010-12-24 00:36:04 awers has joined
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48 2010-12-24 00:36:38 <nanotube> donpdonp: hehe
49 2010-12-24 00:36:45 <nanotube> just trying to make it look good.
50 2010-12-24 00:37:00 * tcatm is running his miner on reduced speed. Cheap PSU suck and it's nearly impossible to get a replacement before next week now :/
51 2010-12-24 00:37:00 <sipa> 50 million of the smallest euro units, would be like EUR 500000, wow!
52 2010-12-24 00:37:11 <nanotube> i have other coins from purchase/service/donations... but these are my first generated coins. :)
53 2010-12-24 00:42:01 <chuck251> is anyone here using an ATI 5850 to mine, and if so what kind of khash/sec does it get? Thinking about upgrading ;)
54 2010-12-24 00:42:38 ColonelPanic1 is now known as INEEDMONEY
55 2010-12-24 00:42:41 <tcatm> chuck251: 240
56 2010-12-24 00:43:41 noagendamarket has joined
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58 2010-12-24 00:43:58 noagendamarket has joined
59 2010-12-24 00:46:43 <chuck251> what brand do you have? has it ever overheated?
60 2010-12-24 00:49:43 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
61 2010-12-24 00:51:05 <tcatm> chuck251: I don't have a 5850, just looked the number up. I have a few 5870 and 5970 and if you leave enoug space for air it should be fine.
62 2010-12-24 00:51:25 <[Noodles]> i've got an Asus and no, never overheated, not even oc'd to 920Mhz to squeeze 300M out, currently runs at 910Mhz 24/7 <70°
63 2010-12-24 00:53:06 <nanotube> chuck251: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
64 2010-12-24 00:54:45 TD has joined
65 2010-12-24 00:58:12 <chuck251> I am trying to do the math - for about $450, I could get this card - http://tinyurl.com/28hkkpr - and this system - http://tinyurl.com/37qr39g - and let it run 24/7, when would it pay for itself? I guess the difficulty is going up so fast, I might have missed the boat...
66 2010-12-24 00:58:32 <tcatm> chuck251: 4 months
67 2010-12-24 00:58:48 <sipa> 4 months is a long time
68 2010-12-24 00:59:20 <sipa> the computing speed of the network may have gone up *10 by then
69 2010-12-24 00:59:23 <tcatm> It's really a bit late now to get in.
70 2010-12-24 01:00:10 <chuck251> nano, thanks... I had seen that chart aleady, my friend has a 5770 and gets 140MHash not the 156 the chart lists, so I wondered if anyone had 1st hand exp with the 5850 to verify it is really ~240 and not way less
71 2010-12-24 01:00:37 <[Noodles]> if you oc it, it's way more
72 2010-12-24 01:00:52 <[Noodles]> as said, mine is running <300M
73 2010-12-24 01:01:17 <[Noodles]> ~236 at stock frequency
74 2010-12-24 01:02:17 <chuck251> you have the 5850 noodles? did you do anything special to OC, replace the fan or anything like that?
75 2010-12-24 01:03:57 <[Noodles]> yes i have and no i didn't, still the stock air-cooler
76 2010-12-24 01:04:13 <[Noodles]> that one -> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121370
77 2010-12-24 01:05:06 <chuck251> the only way I can see spending $450 on a mining computer is 1) it's winter, it will cut my heating costs! (lol) 2) even if it takes 4 months, maybe bitcoins will be worth $1 by then... :)
78 2010-12-24 01:06:33 <chuck251> thanks noodles. I wonder what is wrong with the powercolor I listed above that makes it $40 less then the Asus :) No reviews...
79 2010-12-24 01:06:36 asdf30 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
80 2010-12-24 01:07:07 <[Noodles]> no idea, actually it was the cheapest i could get at the time i bought
81 2010-12-24 01:09:07 <EvanR> this wiki pages says if i dont 'backup' my wallet after 100 operations, i will lose my entire balance :S
82 2010-12-24 01:10:09 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
83 2010-12-24 01:10:26 <EvanR> whats up with that
84 2010-12-24 01:14:46 <kiba> dunno
85 2010-12-24 01:15:00 <EvanR> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=backup
86 2010-12-24 01:15:01 <kiba> could be a mistake in documentation
87 2010-12-24 01:15:18 <Sherpa> I got a 5750 here, it runs nice at 500MHz [lowest]
88 2010-12-24 01:15:28 <Sherpa> 55000khash/s
89 2010-12-24 01:16:20 <sipa> EvanR: if you don't have a backup of at most 100 transactions old, and you lose your wallet.dat, you will lose access to at least part of your balance
90 2010-12-24 01:17:00 <EvanR> oh
91 2010-12-24 01:17:01 <[Noodles]> it's not that you WILL lose your balance, but you MIGHT lose it, if you restore an outdated wallet
92 2010-12-24 01:17:21 <EvanR> so if i backup regularly, and lose my wallet, i wont lose everything since the old wallet?
93 2010-12-24 01:17:37 <sipa> no, a wallet contains 100 future keys
94 2010-12-24 01:17:44 <EvanR> ah
95 2010-12-24 01:17:51 <sipa> and the transactions are stored in the network
96 2010-12-24 01:18:04 <tcatm> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison I made the GPU table sortable :)
97 2010-12-24 01:18:05 <EvanR> right, its a keyring
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108 2010-12-24 01:39:22 genjix has joined
109 2010-12-24 01:39:49 <genjix> ;;bc,mtgox
110 2010-12-24 01:39:50 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.25,"low":0.241,"vol":8610,"buy":0.2433,"sell":0.25,"last":0.25}}
111 2010-12-24 01:40:03 annodomini has joined
112 2010-12-24 01:40:19 <genjix> hmm, prices should climb soon. btc was on russia today news
113 2010-12-24 01:40:55 annodomini has joined
114 2010-12-24 01:41:11 <EvanR> oh nice
115 2010-12-24 01:42:47 <genjix> anyone know any good terminal email programs?
116 2010-12-24 01:42:52 Xun-meister has joined
117 2010-12-24 01:42:57 <genjix> i've started using email again
118 2010-12-24 01:43:34 <sipa> mutt
119 2010-12-24 01:44:07 <tcatm> mailx :D
120 2010-12-24 01:44:24 <EvanR> sylpheed claws lol
121 2010-12-24 01:44:51 <genjix> mutt looks cool. will try that first then
122 2010-12-24 01:49:22 <genjix> wtf -_- this shit is so confusing
123 2010-12-24 01:49:51 <genjix> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Postfix
124 2010-12-24 01:49:52 <EvanR> use ed and sendmail
125 2010-12-24 01:49:53 <genjix> lol
126 2010-12-24 01:50:29 <sipa> tcatm: updated graph http://sipa.be/static/bc-speed.pdf
127 2010-12-24 01:50:39 <sipa> should be much closer to reality now
128 2010-12-24 01:51:44 <tcatm> looks good
129 2010-12-24 02:03:49 TD has joined
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131 2010-12-24 02:10:32 <genjix> EvanR: eh? claws isnt a terminal mail program
132 2010-12-24 02:11:55 <EvanR> just kidding
133 2010-12-24 02:12:05 <EvanR> dont know whod use that program
134 2010-12-24 02:12:52 <da2ce7> genjix, what did russia today say about bitcoin?
135 2010-12-24 02:13:08 <genjix> da2ce7: it was short like 20-30 secs
136 2010-12-24 02:13:22 <genjix> about how it worked .etc in their money section
137 2010-12-24 02:14:22 <da2ce7> wow, some pritty mainstream ppl are getting intersested in bitcoin in russia...
138 2010-12-24 02:14:43 <genjix> i thought it was cool too
139 2010-12-24 02:15:04 <genjix> da2ce7: http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/stock-market-riots-crisis/
140 2010-12-24 02:15:06 <genjix> 12:00
141 2010-12-24 02:15:34 <da2ce7> maybe we should consider making some langurage sub-forums for the russian section on smf.
142 2010-12-24 02:16:46 <genjix> can we have an esperanto one too?
143 2010-12-24 02:16:49 <genjix> there's 5 of us
144 2010-12-24 02:19:10 <donpdonp> genjix: if esperanto is getting a forum, lojban better get one too )
145 2010-12-24 02:19:12 <donpdonp> :)
146 2010-12-24 02:19:34 <genjix> how many people speak lojban in bitcoin cmmunity?
147 2010-12-24 02:19:36 <genjix> 0?
148 2010-12-24 02:19:59 <donpdonp> thats as statistically significant as 5 :)
149 2010-12-24 02:20:10 <genjix> not really.
150 2010-12-24 02:20:33 <sipa> are there people that *speak* lojban?
151 2010-12-24 02:20:40 <sipa> know it, ok...
152 2010-12-24 02:20:41 asdf30 has joined
153 2010-12-24 02:21:08 <genjix> compare with some other languages, we're more than or the same.
154 2010-12-24 02:22:09 <EvanR> kiu parolas esperanton chi tiu?
155 2010-12-24 02:22:34 <genjix> ho! Äu vi ankaÅ parolas la belan lingvon? :D
156 2010-12-24 02:22:44 <EvanR> lol
157 2010-12-24 02:23:01 <EvanR> bone
158 2010-12-24 02:23:17 <genjix> mi pensas ke via gramatiko ne Äustas
159 2010-12-24 02:23:45 <genjix> vi volas diri: kiu parolas esperanton Äi tie?
160 2010-12-24 02:23:57 <EvanR> yeah, thats it
161 2010-12-24 02:24:33 <EvanR> lets speak chinese instead
162 2010-12-24 02:24:48 <genjix> i swear some old-school unix people live in lala-land.
163 2010-12-24 02:24:50 <genjix> http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/
164 2010-12-24 02:24:57 Insti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
165 2010-12-24 02:25:03 <genjix> they expect me to read *all* of that just to configure my mail client?
166 2010-12-24 02:25:32 <genjix> no, quickstart tutorial anywhere.
167 2010-12-24 02:25:36 <tcatm> They expect you to already know how to use mutt :)
168 2010-12-24 02:25:39 <INEEDMONEY> so guys
169 2010-12-24 02:25:41 <EvanR> no, they expect you to pipe ed into sendmail
170 2010-12-24 02:25:44 <INEEDMONEY> have you thought of a better way to decentralize bitcoin yet?
171 2010-12-24 02:25:58 <genjix> "MuttGuide is meant to be used from beginning to end, as a whole; the parts are kept simple to explain the various features step by step, and as basic as possible. Therefore not everything will be explained in all aspects & detail in each part. You might have to read several parts to learn everything for a certain task before you can make it work as you like. Mutt's power lies in the combination of the various features, and it depends on your creat
172 2010-12-24 02:26:06 <INEEDMONEY> so it doesn't rely on the central nature of the internet as it has become
173 2010-12-24 02:26:10 <genjix> right. im going to read this massive document.
174 2010-12-24 02:26:23 <EvanR> genjix: that being said, i really wish microsoft products had such manuals freely available
175 2010-12-24 02:26:28 <INEEDMONEY> lol
176 2010-12-24 02:26:30 <INEEDMONEY> fuck m$
177 2010-12-24 02:26:32 <INEEDMONEY> I am going to buy them
178 2010-12-24 02:26:37 <INEEDMONEY> and burn them
179 2010-12-24 02:27:05 <genjix> except i just want to read email. why is it so hard? i can do it using telnet.
180 2010-12-24 02:27:09 <Cusipzzz> well, we could mint some coins for actual exchange, so if the net goes down, we have coins as backup
181 2010-12-24 02:27:22 <genjix> there's this guide: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=565326
182 2010-12-24 02:27:22 <Cusipzzz> pine ftw
183 2010-12-24 02:27:40 <genjix> did that. doesn't work after installing the 5 programs and copy-pasting those config files.
184 2010-12-24 02:27:41 <EvanR> alpine blows
185 2010-12-24 02:27:46 <genjix> Cusipzzz: thanks will try that.
186 2010-12-24 02:28:24 <genjix> what else can i try if alpine sucks then?
187 2010-12-24 02:28:53 <tcatm> X?
188 2010-12-24 02:29:08 <EvanR> gmail
189 2010-12-24 02:29:13 <Cusipzzz> lol
190 2010-12-24 02:29:20 <genjix> gmail- be spied on. no thx.
191 2010-12-24 02:29:31 <EvanR> google would never do that
192 2010-12-24 02:29:42 <EvanR> lmao
193 2010-12-24 02:29:58 <Cusipzzz> yahoo mail..they are too inept to do anything with the spying
194 2010-12-24 02:30:02 waffles has joined
195 2010-12-24 02:30:05 <genjix> Oo maybe we know different googles
196 2010-12-24 02:30:13 satamusic_ has joined
197 2010-12-24 02:30:25 waffles has left ()
198 2010-12-24 02:30:25 <Cusipzzz> until google buys yahoo, then you're screwed
199 2010-12-24 02:30:25 <tcatm> use GPG
200 2010-12-24 02:30:34 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
201 2010-12-24 02:30:57 <EvanR> write your own email client in bash
202 2010-12-24 02:31:10 <EvanR> it will probably take less effort and time than learning existing popular suites
203 2010-12-24 02:31:23 <tcatm> First write a good email replacement that somehow combines SMTP and IMAP into something easy to configure.
204 2010-12-24 02:31:34 <Cusipzzz> mutt? thunderbird?
205 2010-12-24 02:32:24 Bossbear has joined
206 2010-12-24 02:32:35 <Bossbear> economics anyone?
207 2010-12-24 02:32:37 <Cusipzzz> you want easy? safe? command line old school ?
208 2010-12-24 02:32:54 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
209 2010-12-24 02:35:36 <genjix> twas the day before christmas, genjix was sitting in his house, mail client guis being configured and roused.
210 2010-12-24 02:38:11 <genjix> sweet! i got it configured
211 2010-12-24 02:38:20 <genjix> heh really simple/copy-paste
212 2010-12-24 02:46:53 <Cusipzzz> how many coins think are lost to 'shrinkage', HD crashes, negligence, people never running client after someone send them, etc?
213 2010-12-24 02:47:39 <Cusipzzz> have to think it's a decent number
214 2010-12-24 02:48:35 <tcatm> 100k .. 1M? No one knows..
215 2010-12-24 02:48:42 <Cusipzzz> i mean, cash is lost, burned, ripped, washed to oblivion, too
216 2010-12-24 02:48:54 <Cusipzzz> i was going to say mid- 5 figs
217 2010-12-24 02:49:01 <Cusipzzz> prob higher.
218 2010-12-24 02:49:10 <MT`AwAy> you cannot know
219 2010-12-24 02:49:22 <MT`AwAy> you can only stat the idle coins
220 2010-12-24 02:49:22 <Cusipzzz> i know, just asking what the educatedguess is
221 2010-12-24 02:49:26 <tcatm> I know of at least 9000 BTC that are lost
222 2010-12-24 02:49:37 <MT`AwAy> we all do
223 2010-12-24 02:49:40 <MT`AwAy> :p
224 2010-12-24 02:50:18 <Cusipzzz> i know of some as well :/
225 2010-12-24 02:50:43 <MT`AwAy> mine are safe
226 2010-12-24 02:51:04 <Cusipzzz> i mean, if it's like 50-100k, no biggie.. but if the market knew that 500k+ don't really exist, may impact price...or built-in?
227 2010-12-24 02:51:19 <MT`AwAy> not until we miss them
228 2010-12-24 02:51:54 <Asphodelia> Market-wise, there's not much difference between someone that lost their coins and someone that's not interested in selling them right now.
229 2010-12-24 02:52:27 <Cusipzzz> well, the latter may be interested ina certain price, whereas the former cannot be sold... like a equity stock buyback, those shares are removed fro the pool.
230 2010-12-24 02:52:36 <tcatm> There about 2.5 million coins that haven't beed sent after generation.
231 2010-12-24 02:52:56 <MT`AwAy> that means nothing
232 2010-12-24 02:53:12 <Cusipzzz> ya, doubt many of those are lost, as people who generate, might be more informed, lol
233 2010-12-24 02:53:36 <MT`AwAy> except for the first generations
234 2010-12-24 02:53:47 <MT`AwAy> who didn't care much
235 2010-12-24 02:53:54 <genjix> wish i found bitcoin 1 year ago, generated a ton of coins and put my life savings in them.
236 2010-12-24 02:54:04 <MT`AwAy> lol
237 2010-12-24 02:54:28 <Cusipzzz> i'm thinkin more HD crashes, or someone deciding to send a friend a hefty amount, but friend doesn't see use for BTC and wipes it.
238 2010-12-24 02:55:31 <MT`AwAy> I know of 0.03 btc lost, sent to the NULL address
239 2010-12-24 02:55:37 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
240 2010-12-24 02:55:49 Bossbear has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
241 2010-12-24 02:55:55 <Cusipzzz> i lost 2.03 coins from atest client that got wiped :/, hence the question. lol
242 2010-12-24 02:56:39 <MT`AwAy> that's why my client will include a wallet backup system
243 2010-12-24 02:57:27 <genjix> MT`AwAy: im going to make a discussion page for QBitcon with suggestion ideas, ok? :)
244 2010-12-24 02:57:45 <MT`AwAy> genjix, there is a talk page on the wiki
245 2010-12-24 02:58:03 <genjix> that's what i meant
246 2010-12-24 02:58:07 <MT`AwAy> :p
247 2010-12-24 02:59:24 <MT`AwAy> there is also a separate page for the wallet
248 2010-12-24 03:01:26 ByteCoin has joined
249 2010-12-24 03:02:44 <MT`AwAy> ByteCoin, we fixed the ecc, I made a mistake when I copied some of the montgommery reductions, it works fine now
250 2010-12-24 03:02:47 <MT`AwAy> thanks
251 2010-12-24 03:02:48 <MT`AwAy> :p
252 2010-12-24 03:03:04 <genjix> ByteCoin?
253 2010-12-24 03:03:11 <genjix> isn't your client called QBitcoin?
254 2010-12-24 03:03:21 <genjix> :o
255 2010-12-24 03:03:43 nameless1 is now known as nameless|
256 2010-12-24 03:03:47 <MT`AwAy> genjix, [11:59:18] * ByteCoin (~ByteCoin@188-223-73-61.zone14.bethere.co.uk) a rejoint #bitcoin-dev
257 2010-12-24 03:03:54 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|aww
258 2010-12-24 03:03:58 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|my hat flew away
259 2010-12-24 03:04:04 <genjix> oh my bad :S
260 2010-12-24 03:05:54 <MT`AwAy> :p
261 2010-12-24 03:06:18 * Sherpa has 800 BTC on TestNet :)
262 2010-12-24 03:06:32 * MT`AwAy had 9000 btc on testnet
263 2010-12-24 03:06:34 <genjix> MT`AwAy: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:QBitcoin#Suggestions
264 2010-12-24 03:06:37 skeledrew has joined
265 2010-12-24 03:06:40 <MT`AwAy> gave it all to the test faucet
266 2010-12-24 03:07:00 <Sherpa> I'm thinking i might use TestNet to try out an IRC Slot machine :)
267 2010-12-24 03:07:46 * Sherpa has been working on it
268 2010-12-24 03:07:47 <Sherpa> 3-Slot Values: 5 Unique: 125 Odds: 0.8% 3-Slot Values: 9 Unique: 1000 Odds: 0.1% 5-Slot Values: 5 Unique: 3125 Odds: 0.032% 5-Slot Values: 9 Unique: 100000 Odds: 0.001%
269 2010-12-24 03:08:31 <Sherpa> Membership is 1.0BTC and 'Pulls' are 0.1 BTC to 0.4 BTC :)
270 2010-12-24 03:09:17 * Sherpa still hasnt decided on winning combos yet
271 2010-12-24 03:09:58 <MT`AwAy> :p
272 2010-12-24 03:10:14 <Sherpa> Values arent 9, there 10 :P
273 2010-12-24 03:10:23 <Sherpa> the Values 5 is right thou
274 2010-12-24 03:10:25 <Cusipzzz> sounds rigged =)
275 2010-12-24 03:10:33 <Sherpa> Will be open source
276 2010-12-24 03:10:39 <Sherpa> I'm good like that :)
277 2010-12-24 03:11:24 <Sherpa> Ideally, I get an IRC BlackJack and Poker going as well
278 2010-12-24 03:11:26 Sapians has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
279 2010-12-24 03:11:27 <Cusipzzz> haha
280 2010-12-24 03:11:38 <Cusipzzz> they've had irc poker for years..decades maybe :)
281 2010-12-24 03:11:58 <Sherpa> RFC is dated 81 or so
282 2010-12-24 03:12:00 <Cusipzzz> i think i payed in the late 80s... (dating myself)
283 2010-12-24 03:12:08 <Cusipzzz> played*
284 2010-12-24 03:12:25 <MT`AwAy> irc poker rfc?
285 2010-12-24 03:12:32 <Sherpa> no, RHC 1459
286 2010-12-24 03:12:34 <Sherpa> *F
287 2010-12-24 03:12:54 <Sherpa> Network Working Group J. Oikarinen
288 2010-12-24 03:12:54 <Sherpa> Request for Comments: 1459 D. Reed
289 2010-12-24 03:12:54 <Sherpa> May 1993
290 2010-12-24 03:13:11 <Sherpa> Abstract
291 2010-12-24 03:13:11 <Sherpa> The IRC protocol was developed over the last 4 years since it was
292 2010-12-24 03:13:11 <Sherpa> first implemented as a means for users on a BBS to chat amongst
293 2010-12-24 03:13:11 <Sherpa> themselves. Now it supports a world-wide network of servers and
294 2010-12-24 03:13:11 <Sherpa> clients, and is stringing to cope with growth. Over the past 2 years,
295 2010-12-24 03:13:12 <Sherpa> the average number of users connected to the main IRC network has
296 2010-12-24 03:13:12 <Sherpa> grown by a factor of 10.
297 2010-12-24 03:13:23 theymos has joined
298 2010-12-24 03:13:41 <Sherpa> The MAIN IRC Network..
299 2010-12-24 03:13:45 <Sherpa> I Wonder what that was
300 2010-12-24 03:13:49 <MT`AwAy> irc is probably the single most extablished cloud-based chat protocol
301 2010-12-24 03:13:53 <Cusipzzz> efnet
302 2010-12-24 03:14:02 <Sherpa> I would guess EFNet or DAL
303 2010-12-24 03:14:22 satamusic_ is now known as satamusic
304 2010-12-24 03:14:51 <Sherpa> That document actually has nostalgic value to me :P
305 2010-12-24 03:15:20 * Sherpa remembers grabbing it off of Technicians Town BBS in the early 90's
306 2010-12-24 03:15:27 <Sherpa> Along with mIRC v5
307 2010-12-24 03:15:29 <Sherpa> :)
308 2010-12-24 03:15:48 <Sherpa> and wIRCD for local testing
309 2010-12-24 03:16:31 <Cusipzzz> hoops, bowl game
310 2010-12-24 03:16:35 <Cusipzzz> gah, wrong window
311 2010-12-24 03:20:52 <MT`AwAy> genjix, remember to sign your edits on talk pages
312 2010-12-24 03:21:00 <genjix> ok
313 2010-12-24 03:21:03 <MT`AwAy> :p
314 2010-12-24 03:24:31 <EvanR> twitter is trying to get me to follow AmericanExpress
315 2010-12-24 03:25:15 <Cusipzzz> don't leave home w/o it
316 2010-12-24 03:25:26 lolcat^ has joined
317 2010-12-24 03:25:41 <lolcat^> Its christmas!
318 2010-12-24 03:26:17 <EvanR> all i want for christmas is 400 coins at 20 cents each from mtgox ;)
319 2010-12-24 03:27:27 <MT`AwAy> http://twitpic.com/3ixp0i
320 2010-12-24 03:29:13 <EvanR> whats that
321 2010-12-24 03:29:21 <MT`AwAy> japan
322 2010-12-24 03:29:27 <EvanR> besides that
323 2010-12-24 03:29:30 <lolcat^> EvanR: Unlikley
324 2010-12-24 03:29:35 <EvanR> lol
325 2010-12-24 03:29:50 <MT`AwAy> a picture I just took
326 2010-12-24 03:30:09 <EvanR> that baskin robins is missing their building
327 2010-12-24 03:30:28 <MT`AwAy> because someone didn't believe me when I told him that we had girls dressed as father christmas
328 2010-12-24 03:31:01 <MT`AwAy> oh and you can see the "no smocking" sign on the ground
329 2010-12-24 03:31:18 <lolcat^> MT`AwAy = mtgox?
330 2010-12-24 03:31:21 <MT`AwAy> no
331 2010-12-24 03:31:25 <MT`AwAy> mtgox == mtgox
332 2010-12-24 03:31:34 <MT`AwAy> I'm not mtgox
333 2010-12-24 03:31:43 <MT`AwAy> (I'd love to, but I'm not)
334 2010-12-24 03:32:22 <Cusipzzz> lol
335 2010-12-24 03:32:45 <lolcat^> oO
336 2010-12-24 03:34:09 <MT`AwAy> lolcat^, anyway I'm not mtgox
337 2010-12-24 03:34:39 <lolcat^> Okey, I though it was a abbrevation
338 2010-12-24 03:34:43 <EvanR> magicalgox
339 2010-12-24 03:35:03 <MT`AwAy> :D
340 2010-12-24 03:35:15 <lolcat^> I want to become rich, peg bitcoin to 10x NOK and start my own exchange...
341 2010-12-24 03:36:10 Cdh has joined
342 2010-12-24 03:36:40 <EvanR> lol this blog is introducing bitcoin at the same time as complaining about the roulette game being rigged
343 2010-12-24 03:37:05 <Cusipzzz> yes, we need fixed exchanged rates to encourage growth,,, o.0
344 2010-12-24 03:37:06 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
345 2010-12-24 03:37:21 <Cusipzzz> lol
346 2010-12-24 03:37:26 <EvanR> bitcoins should be backed by gold
347 2010-12-24 03:37:33 <EvanR> or vice versa
348 2010-12-24 03:37:45 <MT`AwAy> bitcoin is backed by gpus
349 2010-12-24 03:39:10 * lolcat^ wants to redeem his bitcoins in gpus
350 2010-12-24 03:39:16 satamusic_ has joined
351 2010-12-24 03:39:35 <lolcat^> And no. bitcoin are backed by the comunity wanting to buy them
352 2010-12-24 03:39:38 <Cusipzzz> fixed exchange rate works for the Yuan...this floating stuff is rigged ;)
353 2010-12-24 03:40:29 <lolcat^> I think a minimum price would drive the price up fast
354 2010-12-24 03:40:31 Cdh has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
355 2010-12-24 03:40:58 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
356 2010-12-24 03:41:33 <Cusipzzz> there is a min price. all the people lined up on the bid at mtgox...of course maybe not at the quantity you'd like.
357 2010-12-24 03:43:35 <EvanR> is the bitcoin casino still up?
358 2010-12-24 03:52:02 Beeps has joined
359 2010-12-24 03:52:53 <Beeps> Hello
360 2010-12-24 03:53:53 <Beeps> are you all asleep?
361 2010-12-24 03:54:07 <theymos> Hi.
362 2010-12-24 03:54:46 <Beeps> Hi @theymos
363 2010-12-24 03:54:54 <genjix> sweet i got mutt configured nice now.
364 2010-12-24 03:56:11 <Cusipzzz> hello
365 2010-12-24 03:56:13 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/
366 2010-12-24 03:56:19 <Cusipzzz> i suggested mutt !
367 2010-12-24 03:56:40 <Beeps> how do you get bitcoins for cash (USD, etc.)?
368 2010-12-24 03:57:04 <nanotube> Beeps: see bitcoin.org/trade (the exchange section)
369 2010-12-24 03:57:20 <Cusipzzz> you can try #bitcoin-otc as well for 1-off trading
370 2010-12-24 03:57:34 <nanotube> Cusipzzz: otc is listed on /trade. :)
371 2010-12-24 03:57:42 <Sherpa> Or make a post at http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/sell/
372 2010-12-24 03:57:43 <Beeps> I did, but all the services that allow me to buy BTC are down
373 2010-12-24 03:57:43 <Cusipzzz> ohhh. forgot :)
374 2010-12-24 03:57:46 <Sherpa> :)
375 2010-12-24 03:57:58 <Cusipzzz> #bitcoin-otc is open!
376 2010-12-24 04:00:37 <Beeps> BTC-OTC, thanks, didn't know about it
377 2010-12-24 04:01:47 <Beeps> I wonder if Wikileaks takes BTC
378 2010-12-24 04:01:54 <genjix> no they dont
379 2010-12-24 04:02:03 <genjix> we came to a gentlemens agreement
380 2010-12-24 04:02:07 <aximilation> they should
381 2010-12-24 04:02:32 <genjix> that'd be nice for wikileaks, disastrous for bitcoin.
382 2010-12-24 04:02:37 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
383 2010-12-24 04:02:52 <EvanR> what was the agreement
384 2010-12-24 04:02:56 <genjix> +5 for wikileaks, -5000 for bitcoin
385 2010-12-24 04:03:08 <genjix> -9001 heh
386 2010-12-24 04:03:21 <Cusipzzz> lol
387 2010-12-24 04:03:32 <nanotube> genjix: even from wl standpoint, problem is there's not enough volume in btc... so it doesn't do them any appreciable good.
388 2010-12-24 04:03:35 <genjix> EvanR: i think they just agreed not to use it because people didnt want them too.
389 2010-12-24 04:03:43 <Sherpa> http://www.bitcoinx.info/btcx/remote-pooled-mining/12-official-btcx-mining-pool.html
390 2010-12-24 04:04:03 <genjix> ic
391 2010-12-24 04:04:17 <genjix> but i know already some people are shifting a few K in btc
392 2010-12-24 04:04:40 <genjix> in the 5-digit ranges
393 2010-12-24 04:05:02 <Beeps> alot of people are angry, like me, and are giving BTC another look
394 2010-12-24 04:05:08 <aximilation> tell me a bit more about the pooled mining?
395 2010-12-24 04:05:20 <Cusipzzz> why did you look away the first time?
396 2010-12-24 04:05:28 <aximilation> I have several machines around that can contribute CPU but haven't found anything on their own :-|
397 2010-12-24 04:05:33 <Beeps> didn't understand it
398 2010-12-24 04:05:41 <genjix> Cusipzzz: x-factor on television
399 2010-12-24 04:05:45 <Beeps> now i do, somewhat
400 2010-12-24 04:06:00 <genjix> another presidential debate :p
401 2010-12-24 04:06:02 <Cusipzzz> lol
402 2010-12-24 04:07:20 ColonelPanic1 has joined
403 2010-12-24 04:07:22 <Beeps> besides, when i looked at BTC last time, it was still VERy new and nobody was using it,
404 2010-12-24 04:07:25 AAA_awright has joined
405 2010-12-24 04:07:41 Kiba has joined
406 2010-12-24 04:07:57 <Beeps> now EFF, i2p, others are taking BTC
407 2010-12-24 04:08:12 <nanotube> aximilation: look at the ,,pool page
408 2010-12-24 04:08:13 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
409 2010-12-24 04:08:14 ColonelPanic1 has quit (Client Quit)
410 2010-12-24 04:08:19 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
411 2010-12-24 04:08:22 <Beeps> and we really need an alternative currency/transfer system
412 2010-12-24 04:08:39 INEEDMONEY1 has joined
413 2010-12-24 04:08:47 <nanotube> tcatm: nice work on the tablification of the hardware tables. :)
414 2010-12-24 04:09:08 <Cusipzzz> Beeps: so get in there!
415 2010-12-24 04:09:14 INEEDMONEY has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
416 2010-12-24 04:09:23 INEEDMONEY1 is now known as INEEDMONEY
417 2010-12-24 04:09:24 <EvanR> Beeps: so far, bitcoins has worked well for me, unless i want it to interface with real money
418 2010-12-24 04:09:33 <Cusipzzz> lol
419 2010-12-24 04:09:44 <EvanR> solution, keep it all in bitcoins
420 2010-12-24 04:09:49 <Cusipzzz> ez game
421 2010-12-24 04:10:33 <Beeps> Cusipzzz/EvanR, I am running BTC, but have very little to buy anything, so I need to convert some regular money into BTC
422 2010-12-24 04:11:09 <EvanR> how many do you want
423 2010-12-24 04:11:31 <Beeps> dunno yet,
424 2010-12-24 04:11:34 <Cusipzzz> what kind of 'regular money' ? i suggest #bitcoin-otc
425 2010-12-24 04:11:45 <Beeps> regular = USD
426 2010-12-24 04:12:02 <EvanR> i like my monopoly on Beeps in here ;)
427 2010-12-24 04:12:14 <Cusipzzz> define USD...cash? paypal? check? credit card? stored value card? amazon USD credit? poker usd$
428 2010-12-24 04:12:36 <Beeps> USD is going to be worthless anyway :)
429 2010-12-24 04:12:42 <EvanR> chili's gift card, stocks and bonds, swiss accounts
430 2010-12-24 04:12:51 <Beeps> paypal or cash
431 2010-12-24 04:13:17 <Cusipzzz> where do ya live? some people will take cash in person if you don't want to mail. people will take paypal in #bitcoin-otc
432 2010-12-24 04:14:01 <Beeps> I live on 2 continents, sometimes 3
433 2010-12-24 04:14:19 <Beeps> i need to lose some weight :)
434 2010-12-24 04:14:28 <Cusipzzz> ok, i tried =)
435 2010-12-24 04:15:15 <Beeps> thanks for the info, but those who take cash, how do THEY exchange it for BTC?
436 2010-12-24 04:15:29 <EvanR> mail
437 2010-12-24 04:15:35 <EvanR> oh
438 2010-12-24 04:15:39 <Cusipzzz> they already have them... almost 5MM outstanding
439 2010-12-24 04:15:43 <EvanR> yeah
440 2010-12-24 04:16:03 <theymos> They might also have large amounts in Liberty Reserve, which is more easy to trade with.
441 2010-12-24 04:16:05 <EvanR> they are already in the pyramid
442 2010-12-24 04:16:18 <Beeps> wow, that doesn't seem fair, that the BTC system is si skewed rich/poor from the outset
443 2010-12-24 04:16:43 <EvanR> its not
444 2010-12-24 04:16:49 <nanotube> Beeps: well, you are invited to come up with a better way to initially 'seed' the currency among the populace.
445 2010-12-24 04:17:01 <EvanR> overthrow satoshi
446 2010-12-24 04:17:03 <Cusipzzz> yes! outrageous !
447 2010-12-24 04:17:04 <nanotube> Beeps: whatever you come up with is likely to have more problems than this. :)
448 2010-12-24 04:17:21 <EvanR> redistribution of wealth
449 2010-12-24 04:17:33 <Cusipzzz> ya.. BTC lottery of all outstanding coins every 6 months.
450 2010-12-24 04:17:45 <Cusipzzz> that would be exciting
451 2010-12-24 04:18:01 <Beeps> it should be more equitable at least until the maximum BTC number of coins is minted
452 2010-12-24 04:18:10 <EvanR> in 2140?
453 2010-12-24 04:18:20 <Cusipzzz> it is equitable..you do the work, you get the coins
454 2010-12-24 04:18:29 <Beeps> OK, maybe 75%
455 2010-12-24 04:19:14 <Cusipzzz> early adopters always have an advantage. people who bought apple stock at 10, that's not fair to the guy who wants to buy today, at $233, right?
456 2010-12-24 04:19:14 <Beeps> not equitable, because if you can afford more/better computers, electricity, then you get more BTC
457 2010-12-24 04:19:37 <EvanR> you would get more sooner by just buying them outright
458 2010-12-24 04:20:02 <Beeps> true....
459 2010-12-24 04:20:06 <EvanR> well not if you go all out
460 2010-12-24 04:20:07 <Cusipzzz> yes, bitcoin is biased against homeless people, you are right, we should shut it down.
461 2010-12-24 04:20:10 <EvanR> with an array of 5970
462 2010-12-24 04:20:19 <theymos> Beeps: That's how all resources work. Generators are simply buying BTC with electricity.
463 2010-12-24 04:20:38 <theymos> When the price was low, you could also have bought BTC with USD at extremely low prices.
464 2010-12-24 04:21:15 <Cusipzzz> you may get your chance again, maybe $.25 is too high and it will be $.06 next week?
465 2010-12-24 04:21:38 <EvanR> the sellers havent budged in days :(
466 2010-12-24 04:21:46 <Beeps> i understand that this tendency to stratification is not avoidable, but I was hoping that it would be level at least for some time in the beginning
467 2010-12-24 04:22:00 <EvanR> Beeps is a communist!
468 2010-12-24 04:22:22 <Cusipzzz> it was level, it is level. late joiners will always pay more. such is life
469 2010-12-24 04:22:43 <Beeps> fuck life!!
470 2010-12-24 04:22:45 <Beeps> LOL
471 2010-12-24 04:22:53 <EvanR> figure out ways to steal peoples coins
472 2010-12-24 04:23:04 <Beeps> call me Comrade Beeps
473 2010-12-24 04:23:18 <EvanR> for instance, with a casino
474 2010-12-24 04:23:32 <Cusipzzz> Beeps: go to the faucet - free coins
475 2010-12-24 04:23:35 fabianhjr has joined
476 2010-12-24 04:23:42 <Beeps> is soviet russia, we use rubber hoses
477 2010-12-24 04:23:56 <fabianhjr> Does anyone know where is Genjix?
478 2010-12-24 04:24:18 <Beeps> faucet, nice idea, but need more
479 2010-12-24 04:24:20 <Cusipzzz> !seen genjix
480 2010-12-24 04:24:24 <Cusipzzz> hmm
481 2010-12-24 04:24:30 <theymos> ;;seen genjix
482 2010-12-24 04:24:30 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 18 minutes and 29 seconds ago: <genjix> another presidential debate :p
483 2010-12-24 04:24:31 <EvanR> Beeps: people donate to people regularly
484 2010-12-24 04:24:38 <EvanR> put your cup out
485 2010-12-24 04:24:39 <Cusipzzz> ah, thx :)
486 2010-12-24 04:25:08 <fabianhjr> OMG, he is in deep shit. There has been someone with shell access to pastecoin >_<
487 2010-12-24 04:26:07 <Cusipzzz> and that's a problem because...
488 2010-12-24 04:26:14 acous has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
489 2010-12-24 04:27:07 <EvanR> Beeps: ill send you a coin if you give me an address
490 2010-12-24 04:27:24 <theymos> Didn't he sell pastecoin?
491 2010-12-24 04:28:10 <fabianhjr> Don't care. Somone uploaded a c99 and here is where I sell my files. >_<
492 2010-12-24 04:28:21 <Beeps> thanks EvanR, but I really don't need it at this point, and BTC being scarce, you should keep it. I have 0.05 and counting.
493 2010-12-24 04:28:36 <EvanR> they arent really scarce
494 2010-12-24 04:28:50 <EvanR> see depth of mtgox
495 2010-12-24 04:28:54 <Cusipzzz> scarce is relative..
496 2010-12-24 04:28:56 <fabianhjr> theymos: who is the new owner?
497 2010-12-24 04:29:23 <theymos> fabianhjr: I don't know. I don't even know if he sold it yet. He was auctioning it off on the forum, though.
498 2010-12-24 04:29:36 <fabianhjr> Yes, I saw it.
499 2010-12-24 04:30:08 <fabianhjr> I hope he gets online soon.
500 2010-12-24 04:30:28 <fabianhjr> Kiba: are you the new owner of Pastecoin?
501 2010-12-24 04:32:03 <fabianhjr> Are you still there?</Portal>
502 2010-12-24 04:37:44 <Beeps> Thanks theymos, EvanR, Cusi, etc for all the info
503 2010-12-24 04:38:56 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
504 2010-12-24 04:39:54 <EvanR> may the coin be with you
505 2010-12-24 04:40:07 <Beeps> lol
506 2010-12-24 04:41:25 <Beeps> i hope the coin takes over the world
507 2010-12-24 04:41:35 <Beeps> dark side and all
508 2010-12-24 04:42:20 <Cusipzzz> but that will only enrich the founders...blashpemy. we need it to catch up, nobody cash out, then blow it up and start a 2nd chain, where everyone is even at beginning :)
509 2010-12-24 04:42:45 <lolcat^> EvanR: How many coins are for sale on mtgox?
510 2010-12-24 04:43:00 <EvanR> like a hundred thousand
511 2010-12-24 04:43:06 <EvanR> just guessing
512 2010-12-24 04:43:13 <Beeps> lol Cusipzzz
513 2010-12-24 04:43:15 <Cusipzzz> prob more
514 2010-12-24 04:43:21 <EvanR> oh, dark pools
515 2010-12-24 04:43:37 <Cusipzzz> question is not how many, but how many at what price?
516 2010-12-24 04:44:27 * lolcat^ wonders how many bitcins â¬100000 could get
517 2010-12-24 04:44:43 <Cusipzzz> lots
518 2010-12-24 04:45:51 <Beeps> BTC is open source, so who knows what thsi will start
519 2010-12-24 04:48:08 pop_ has joined
520 2010-12-24 04:48:11 <pop_> hi
521 2010-12-24 04:48:28 <Cusipzzz> hello
522 2010-12-24 04:48:33 <pop_> anyone up for some help?
523 2010-12-24 04:48:49 <Cusipzzz> go for it
524 2010-12-24 04:48:51 <aximilation> I love getting help!
525 2010-12-24 04:49:20 <pop_> I dled bitcoin went to faucet did the whole thing got the coin, but man something is eating all my cpus
526 2010-12-24 04:49:37 <pop_> I had to suspend the program
527 2010-12-24 04:49:41 <Cusipzzz> don't generate coins
528 2010-12-24 04:49:48 <aximilation> sounds like you're mining
529 2010-12-24 04:49:51 <theymos> Are you still downloading blocks?
530 2010-12-24 04:50:00 <Cusipzzz> even better answer :/
531 2010-12-24 04:50:25 <pop_> no idea
532 2010-12-24 04:50:39 <theymos> Is the block count in the lower right of the UI increasing?
533 2010-12-24 04:51:25 <pop_> coupld see it had to end the program
534 2010-12-24 04:51:34 <Beeps> instead of solving stupid sha problems, why not generate BTC by running a program like seti@home?
535 2010-12-24 04:51:37 <Cusipzzz> re open it =)
536 2010-12-24 04:51:41 <pop_> k
537 2010-12-24 04:51:59 <theymos> Beeps: Those don't have the properties we need. We need to generate random numbers verifiably.
538 2010-12-24 04:52:13 <theymos> Beeps: And it's not useless. It allows Bitcoin to function.
539 2010-12-24 04:52:21 <pop_> says 1 connection 99150block 1 trans
540 2010-12-24 04:52:58 <theymos> Does it say "generating" at the bottom of the UI?
541 2010-12-24 04:53:01 <Beeps> i wish we could also use those cycles for more
542 2010-12-24 04:53:31 <pop_> ummm
543 2010-12-24 04:53:47 <pop_> this is all very new to me
544 2010-12-24 04:54:00 <Cusipzzz> does it say 'generating' or not ?
545 2010-12-24 04:54:07 <pop_> now it says generating
546 2010-12-24 04:54:10 <aximilation> pop, the part that uses cpu is mining
547 2010-12-24 04:54:14 <aximilation> aka generating
548 2010-12-24 04:54:15 <Cusipzzz> that willeat your cpu
549 2010-12-24 04:54:31 <theymos> Go to "settings" and uncheck "generate coins".
550 2010-12-24 04:54:34 <aximilation> trying to find the magic numbers (free BTC) turn that off and you can *use* BTC but not generate free ones
551 2010-12-24 04:54:42 <Cusipzzz> ^^
552 2010-12-24 04:54:51 <pop_> now that I closed it and reopend it;s not using much
553 2010-12-24 04:55:21 <pop_> ok ungenerated
554 2010-12-24 04:55:40 <pop_> I hope I have all the settings correct
555 2010-12-24 04:56:02 <Cusipzzz> now it should use very little
556 2010-12-24 04:56:27 <pop_> so thisi s all new to me what am I doing?
557 2010-12-24 04:56:53 <theymos> Without "generate coins", Bitcoin doesn't do anything. You can use it to send and receive bitcoins.
558 2010-12-24 04:56:54 <pop_> I get the concept - sort of
559 2010-12-24 04:57:13 <pop_> so if I am not collecting coins I should turn it off
560 2010-12-24 04:57:21 <aximilation> basically when you were generating you were "hunting for gold" so to speak
561 2010-12-24 04:57:35 <aximilation> but even with it off you can still send/receive BTC
562 2010-12-24 04:57:43 <EvanR> and the river is dry ;)
563 2010-12-24 04:57:56 <Cusipzzz> lol
564 2010-12-24 04:57:57 <theymos> pop_: You do act as a node in the network. It's helpful to leave Bitcoin running if you can accept incoming connections and have high uptime.
565 2010-12-24 04:58:11 <aximilation> it's either a bank account or you're searching for gold
566 2010-12-24 04:58:12 <pop_> I'm trying to understand what the purpose is - something about nodes and gathering coins and exchanging them
567 2010-12-24 04:58:31 <Cusipzzz> did you read the faq?
568 2010-12-24 04:58:40 <nanotube> pop_: it is just as it says on the label: a decentralized cryptocurrency.
569 2010-12-24 04:58:42 <aximilation> think of it like gold from the old days...
570 2010-12-24 04:58:47 <pop_> yes, but the concept hasn't sunk in yet
571 2010-12-24 04:59:00 * EvanR bites into a bitcoin
572 2010-12-24 04:59:01 <aximilation> some people searched for/mined gold, others traded/stole/swindled for gold
573 2010-12-24 04:59:09 <theymos> It replaces both PayPal and USD.
574 2010-12-24 04:59:10 <EvanR> thats not gold at all
575 2010-12-24 04:59:14 <aximilation> both are a rare (limited supply) commodity
576 2010-12-24 04:59:27 <pop_> I like the idea of barter and something other than pay pal
577 2010-12-24 04:59:38 <EvanR> paypal refugee
578 2010-12-24 04:59:45 <theymos> pop_: It's not barter. It is money.
579 2010-12-24 04:59:48 <aximilation> you can provide services, you can be paid in BTC. Or gold. Or USD. Pick your payment
580 2010-12-24 04:59:55 <Cusipzzz> right but.. but mining gold, you can find nothing, or the mother lode.. gold isn't 50 blocks/day
581 2010-12-24 05:00:05 <pop_> but it's not physical gold
582 2010-12-24 05:00:06 <aximilation> If you give me $1 USD I'll give you my 1 BTC
583 2010-12-24 05:00:08 <Cusipzzz> err 200 blocks
584 2010-12-24 05:00:35 <aximilation> or something like that, it's a virtual, unreproducible "item"
585 2010-12-24 05:00:35 <Cusipzzz> i'll do it for less ;)
586 2010-12-24 05:00:50 <aximilation> actually I'd be open to buy some BTC tonight if the price is right
587 2010-12-24 05:00:55 <nanotube> i've been doing some work on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getting_started
588 2010-12-24 05:00:57 <pop_> how do you mine - I mean iot's not like digging in the sierras
589 2010-12-24 05:01:02 <Cusipzzz> like an Epic sword, in WoW, if that helps.
590 2010-12-24 05:01:08 <aximilation> well actually it's sorta like that
591 2010-12-24 05:01:18 <aximilation> the BTC are out there, it's a matter of finding them
592 2010-12-24 05:01:30 <aximilation> generating is akin to going to the old mine searching for gord
593 2010-12-24 05:01:35 <pop_> I need an imagination picture to understand the concept
594 2010-12-24 05:01:38 <Cusipzzz> you have to work for them. not find.
595 2010-12-24 05:01:39 <aximilation> you may find it, you may not
596 2010-12-24 05:01:48 <EvanR> computational gold
597 2010-12-24 05:02:08 <Beeps> who believes Satoshi is really japanese?
598 2010-12-24 05:02:09 <aximilation> when you generate you are crunching numbers, finding the golden numbers and separating them from the useless "rocks"
599 2010-12-24 05:02:11 <theymos> pop_: Your computer generates random numbers in a way that the rest of the network can verify. If one of your numbers is lower than the current target number, you win a block and 50 BTC. It's like a lottery. The target is so low right now, however, that it's pretty much pointless unless you have special mining hardware.
600 2010-12-24 05:02:19 <pop_> I can understand if I work like create something and people watch it or buy it with bitcoins
601 2010-12-24 05:02:49 <pop_> mineing hardware like?
602 2010-12-24 05:03:01 <aximilation> high end, multi proc computers
603 2010-12-24 05:03:02 <theymos> GPUs, mainly.
604 2010-12-24 05:03:08 <aximilation> or that
605 2010-12-24 05:03:17 <EvanR> ati 5970
606 2010-12-24 05:03:26 <pop_> hmm okay makes sence, but the low number part - I don't get
607 2010-12-24 05:03:36 <Cusipzzz> yes..you can sell services for BTC...programming, web design, etc..or physical goods...books, anything.
608 2010-12-24 05:03:53 <EvanR> or blow it in poker
609 2010-12-24 05:04:02 <pop_> how do you buy these bitcoins to trade?
610 2010-12-24 05:04:18 <pop_> and what do you buy them with other than a service
611 2010-12-24 05:04:28 <Cusipzzz> trade link
612 2010-12-24 05:04:43 <aximilation> USD, JPY, any currency that people who are selling BTC will accept
613 2010-12-24 05:04:46 <theymos> pop_: Your CPU does some work and is able to generate often several million hashes per second. Each hash is a random number between 0 and 2^256. If this number happens to be below the current target (also a huge number, but much less than the maximum one), then you win.
614 2010-12-24 05:04:52 <Cusipzzz> http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
615 2010-12-24 05:05:32 <aximilation> for instance I may accept solid ounces of silver for BTC
616 2010-12-24 05:06:03 <pop_> theymos: that's past me I'm afraid - I'll have to learn what you just said
617 2010-12-24 05:06:07 <Cusipzzz> lots more than currency... you can trade poker money, amazon.com credit, paypal credit, prepaid credit cards, anything that has 'value' people will likely accept for BTC
618 2010-12-24 05:06:41 <nanotube> theymos: i think a non-techy-friendly explanation of mining would find a good home on the getting started page on the wiki :)
619 2010-12-24 05:06:54 <nanotube> theymos: then we could stop repeating the same things to the newcomers. :)
620 2010-12-24 05:07:04 <Cusipzzz> or just create a macro =)
621 2010-12-24 05:07:09 <theymos> nanotube: Well, I wrote a bunch of stuff in "target", "block", etc.
622 2010-12-24 05:07:12 <Beeps> lol
623 2010-12-24 05:07:12 <aximilation> most people don't consider solid silver or gold currency...but they are both able to be accepted for real world currency
624 2010-12-24 05:07:19 <pop_> yeah I imagine as this grows people are going to have a ton of the same questions
625 2010-12-24 05:07:27 <aximilation> you guys want me to put a script together?
626 2010-12-24 05:07:34 <pop_> aximilation: I am trying to crash JPM
627 2010-12-24 05:07:36 <aximilation> it could respond to #faq
628 2010-12-24 05:07:44 <aximilation> jpm?
629 2010-12-24 05:07:49 <pop_> JP Morgan
630 2010-12-24 05:08:40 <EvanR> wikileak them to death
631 2010-12-24 05:08:47 <Cusipzzz> you can probably buy a put on jpm w/bitcoins, lol
632 2010-12-24 05:08:48 <pop_> aximilation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCM7rMIqxmk
633 2010-12-24 05:09:53 <pop_> so I have a website I seel something on how do I get someone to send me bitcoins for the product - is there a button or?
634 2010-12-24 05:09:58 <nanotube> theymos: ah cool i should link to those. btw... about 'difficulty', the page says "difficulty = minimum_target / current_target "... shouldn't that be 'maximum target" rather than minimum? since the minimum target is like... 1 :)
635 2010-12-24 05:10:28 <Cusipzzz> pop_ yes, you can add code to your site to accept BTC
636 2010-12-24 05:10:56 <pop_> do I need to register with the web site?
637 2010-12-24 05:11:07 <EvanR> no
638 2010-12-24 05:11:11 <EvanR> but would be cool
639 2010-12-24 05:11:23 <Cusipzzz> has nothing to do with any site, it's anonymous between you and the buyer
640 2010-12-24 05:11:30 <pop_> so if I put I accept bitcoins in exchange for this product
641 2010-12-24 05:11:48 <pop_> I have to come up with a vertain amount of bitcoins
642 2010-12-24 05:11:57 <EvanR> the price
643 2010-12-24 05:12:04 <pop_> how do I figure that out - via what I charge for cash?
644 2010-12-24 05:12:22 <EvanR> you could convert using the current rate for USD, or not
645 2010-12-24 05:12:28 <Cusipzzz> roughly USD x .25
646 2010-12-24 05:12:33 <Cusipzzz> you can check current trading prices
647 2010-12-24 05:13:01 <pop_> so if I sell a product for say $15.00 what's that equate to in cash?
648 2010-12-24 05:13:08 <Sherpa> www.wtfhost.info/cart.php
649 2010-12-24 05:13:14 <Sherpa> What im using for pricing
650 2010-12-24 05:13:15 <Sherpa> in BTC
651 2010-12-24 05:13:20 <Cusipzzz> ~60BTC
652 2010-12-24 05:13:55 <theymos> nanotube: It should actually be maximum. I fixed it. Maximum target = minimum difficulty. The code actually uses "minimum" for the variable name, which is probably how this error was made (I didn't write the difficulty article).
653 2010-12-24 05:14:00 <pop_> heh nice site
654 2010-12-24 05:14:43 <pop_> one problem - shipping
655 2010-12-24 05:15:11 <EvanR> the seller is going to have to pay shipping in usd
656 2010-12-24 05:15:12 <pop_> seems tangibles for the most part drives up the cost via shipping
657 2010-12-24 05:15:16 <Cusipzzz> what's the problem?
658 2010-12-24 05:15:30 <nanotube> theymos: yea :) was just making sure i wasn't off on that. :)
659 2010-12-24 05:15:32 <Cusipzzz> if you charge usd shipping, charge BTC shipping
660 2010-12-24 05:15:52 <pop_> unless I sell shipping
661 2010-12-24 05:15:59 <EvanR> good idea
662 2010-12-24 05:16:00 <pop_> via usd
663 2010-12-24 05:16:04 <EvanR> bad idea
664 2010-12-24 05:16:07 <EvanR> lol
665 2010-12-24 05:16:41 <pop_> so if I have bitcoin click here then lkink that to say UPS via paypal click here
666 2010-12-24 05:17:31 <Cusipzzz> why? just add on extra BTCs to cover shipping
667 2010-12-24 05:17:33 <pop_> until someone comes up with a way to exchange shipping via bitcoin
668 2010-12-24 05:17:53 <pop_> well shipping via USD comes out of my pocket
669 2010-12-24 05:17:56 Beeps has quit (Quit: Page closed)
670 2010-12-24 05:18:00 <Cusipzzz> you pay the shipping in USD, they pay you in BTC...just like for your product
671 2010-12-24 05:18:37 <pop_> of course that makes sense. except if you don't have anyh more funds and just product
672 2010-12-24 05:19:09 <pop_> I might be more likly to do that with a friend
673 2010-12-24 05:19:28 <pop_> I think it's just old thinking on my part
674 2010-12-24 05:19:42 <pop_> the idea of bitcoin is strange
675 2010-12-24 05:19:45 <Cusipzzz> i don't understand...this product is a value of 15$, but you are willing to give it up for BTCs, but the 5$ shipping, you want cash?
676 2010-12-24 05:19:46 <EvanR> you can do this: 15.00 coins + 5 for shipping, or something
677 2010-12-24 05:19:51 <pop_> like going from cash to credit card
678 2010-12-24 05:20:13 <pop_> the productis paid for - the funds are already gone
679 2010-12-24 05:20:17 <nanotube> hey everyone, new command: bitcoin wiki search.
680 2010-12-24 05:20:19 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki fee
681 2010-12-24 05:20:20 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Dec 19, 2010 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
682 2010-12-24 05:20:25 <nanotube> (for example) :)
683 2010-12-24 05:20:56 <theymos> Cool. That will be useful.
684 2010-12-24 05:21:01 <Cusipzzz> dare i ask what this product is ?
685 2010-12-24 05:21:14 <nanotube> i think so too. :)
686 2010-12-24 05:21:20 <pop_> you're asking people to go from what they know - what they have in their hand or think they have in their bank account - a tangable to digits - that's new
687 2010-12-24 05:21:25 <EvanR> Cusipzzz: dont do it. dont ask about 'product'
688 2010-12-24 05:21:55 <EvanR> pop_: as far as i can tell the only difference is the bank doesnt own the digits anymore
689 2010-12-24 05:21:56 <Cusipzzz> it's new... at one point coins were new...and paper money
690 2010-12-24 05:22:20 <pop_> Cusipzzz: yes and it take a bit of getting used to
691 2010-12-24 05:22:41 <pop_> the psychology behind money
692 2010-12-24 05:22:50 <EvanR> if they mention it on mass media, well get a serious reaction ;)
693 2010-12-24 05:23:06 <pop_> I understand barter and coins and dollars
694 2010-12-24 05:23:31 <pop_> EvanR: no doubt, peope like new - but they are always looking for scammers
695 2010-12-24 05:23:38 <Cusipzzz> this is like barter. people have 'faith' in BTCs to the point that they offer real goods and services in exchange
696 2010-12-24 05:23:52 <pop_> think about how much troublke people have gotten into with their credit card
697 2010-12-24 05:24:04 <Kiba> gosh, people are still confused as to who is the true owner of pastecoin
698 2010-12-24 05:24:14 <Cusipzzz> no credit, no fractional reserve, no banks creating money from loans.
699 2010-12-24 05:24:32 <pop_> Cusipzzz: correct - but old habits
700 2010-12-24 05:24:43 <pop_> sholdn't bankers on Wall Street be in jail?
701 2010-12-24 05:25:06 <pop_> the important question is why aren't they
702 2010-12-24 05:25:07 <Kiba> they probably have more to lose than anyone else
703 2010-12-24 05:25:09 <Cusipzzz> could you be more specific? all of them?
704 2010-12-24 05:25:26 <pop_> well say Dimon and Blankfein
705 2010-12-24 05:25:46 <pop_> Geithner Bernanck and Greenspan
706 2010-12-24 05:25:57 <pop_> I got a list if you want to see it
707 2010-12-24 05:26:00 <EvanR> lol
708 2010-12-24 05:26:00 <pop_> ;)
709 2010-12-24 05:26:03 <Cusipzzz> for what? govt has been investigating for years..if they had a criminal case, they would pursue... the public would love it.
710 2010-12-24 05:26:21 <pop_> are you serious?
711 2010-12-24 05:26:38 <Kiba> they lose their shirt when the economy come crashing down, eventually
712 2010-12-24 05:26:38 <pop_> the whole system is corrupt
713 2010-12-24 05:26:42 <Cusipzzz> notsureifserious.jpg
714 2010-12-24 05:26:54 <pop_> Kiba: that's the hope - buuuuuuut
715 2010-12-24 05:27:14 <Kiba> this is what the people get, anyway
716 2010-12-24 05:27:16 <pop_> these guys are already making plans to leave
717 2010-12-24 05:27:30 <theymos> I'm not familiar with the case, but it seems to me that the bankers didn't force anyone to do anything.
718 2010-12-24 05:27:43 <Kiba> democracy always in the end, commit sucide
719 2010-12-24 05:27:55 <pop_> dubai has no US extradition
720 2010-12-24 05:28:08 <EvanR> assange picked the wrong hiding place
721 2010-12-24 05:28:13 <pop_> theymos: fraud larceny theft
722 2010-12-24 05:28:27 <pop_> EvanR: wasn't that interesting...
723 2010-12-24 05:28:38 <Cusipzzz> prove it. i'd blame the rating agencies first.
724 2010-12-24 05:28:49 <Kiba> they are a symptom, not the cause...
725 2010-12-24 05:28:54 <pop_> if you are a banker you can go to London Town and even interpole can't touch you
726 2010-12-24 05:28:56 <Kiba> punishing them is popular, but not hte cure
727 2010-12-24 05:29:15 <Kiba> it all come downs to incentive problems
728 2010-12-24 05:29:16 <pop_> well without justice you have no foundation
729 2010-12-24 05:29:31 <Kiba> justice is not about punishing people you don't like. It's about predictability and rule of law.
730 2010-12-24 05:29:49 <Kiba> there is no predictablity and rule of law because congress is interested in everything in your life.
731 2010-12-24 05:29:58 <pop_> they violate the rule of law with impunity
732 2010-12-24 05:30:03 <pop_> they own the government
733 2010-12-24 05:30:11 <Kiba> no, you the people, own the government.
734 2010-12-24 05:30:17 <Kiba> you vote the guys in.
735 2010-12-24 05:30:30 <pop_> Congress is making money off the stock market and bailout - how corrupt can it get
736 2010-12-24 05:30:31 <Kiba> well excuse me, voters own the government
737 2010-12-24 05:30:48 <Kiba> who's the largest and most powerful voters? The elderly.
738 2010-12-24 05:30:50 <pop_> Kiba: the people are how do I put this....
739 2010-12-24 05:30:52 <Kiba> look at what they get...
740 2010-12-24 05:30:54 <EvanR> but the government doesnt own (many) banks
741 2010-12-24 05:30:56 <Kiba> social security
742 2010-12-24 05:31:01 <Kiba> and medicaid
743 2010-12-24 05:31:06 <Kiba> young people get little if anything
744 2010-12-24 05:31:06 <pop_> the banks own the government now
745 2010-12-24 05:31:18 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
746 2010-12-24 05:31:21 epicurus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
747 2010-12-24 05:31:22 <Kiba> it's not about just the elite, it's about people like your grandmas and voters
748 2010-12-24 05:31:28 <pop_> all that toxic waste is being exchanged for cash
749 2010-12-24 05:31:40 <pop_> and they are taking the cash and buying gold
750 2010-12-24 05:31:47 <Kiba> your grandma, your grandpa, and everybody else who votes..buy into the system
751 2010-12-24 05:31:49 <Kiba> support the system
752 2010-12-24 05:31:54 <EvanR> oy again with the gold!
753 2010-12-24 05:32:00 <Kiba> and eventually you get some of the l00t
754 2010-12-24 05:32:05 <Cusipzzz> another goldbug =)
755 2010-12-24 05:32:05 <Kiba> democracy is loot by many.
756 2010-12-24 05:32:06 <pop_> and other commodities
757 2010-12-24 05:32:30 <Kiba> if monarchy is l00t by few, democracy is l00t by many.
758 2010-12-24 05:32:38 <pop_> China is cashing all of their US Ts and B for commodities - they are buying the world with US dollars
759 2010-12-24 05:32:53 * Kiba is not a goldbug
760 2010-12-24 05:32:59 * Kiba is a supporter of free market money
761 2010-12-24 05:33:14 <pop_> these bankers mean business
762 2010-12-24 05:33:19 <Kiba> people like to blame the banking elite, the lobbyisters..and all
763 2010-12-24 05:33:25 <Kiba> it's popular...
764 2010-12-24 05:33:25 <pop_> they are taking down country after country
765 2010-12-24 05:33:42 <pop_> Kiba: well as long as the door is open they take
766 2010-12-24 05:33:53 <pop_> but the people helping them are supposed to be protecting us
767 2010-12-24 05:33:54 <Kiba> pop_: all government is a form of civilized looting.
768 2010-12-24 05:34:15 <pop_> well government can serve the people
769 2010-12-24 05:34:23 <Kiba> the government serve the people who vote, pop_
770 2010-12-24 05:34:25 <Kiba> like the elderly
771 2010-12-24 05:34:26 <pop_> you wouldn't have a computer without it
772 2010-12-24 05:34:52 <pop_> no the government NOW serves the guys with the most wealth and power
773 2010-12-24 05:34:54 <Kiba> the government is not the sole path to computer and the internet
774 2010-12-24 05:35:08 <pop_> tax payers made it happen
775 2010-12-24 05:35:15 <Kiba> pop_: every representive elected directly serve the taxpayer in that district
776 2010-12-24 05:35:28 <pop_> you think that was true, but it's not
777 2010-12-24 05:35:49 <Kiba> ah come on..it's not about many versus the evil rich elite
778 2010-12-24 05:35:51 <pop_> the districts are gerrymandered
779 2010-12-24 05:36:02 <pop_> that was done by design
780 2010-12-24 05:36:15 BCBot has joined
781 2010-12-24 05:36:19 <pop_> corpoations paid big money to corner that
782 2010-12-24 05:36:23 <Kiba> it's about looters.
783 2010-12-24 05:36:33 <pop_> well yes immoral people
784 2010-12-24 05:36:35 <Kiba> pop_: if corporations don't lobby, others will lobby against them.
785 2010-12-24 05:36:48 <Kiba> pop_: taxation is inheriently immoral, even if it is done for "the people"
786 2010-12-24 05:37:11 <pop_> well if they are dumping cadmium in the drinking water yes people will lobby against them wouldn't you?
787 2010-12-24 05:37:19 <EvanR> hahahaha
788 2010-12-24 05:37:31 <Kiba> I don't give a damn about who the rich and poor is.
789 2010-12-24 05:37:32 <pop_> what woudl you do?
790 2010-12-24 05:37:36 <theymos> The Internet probably would have happened faster without government. AT&T had a government-granted monopoly, and used it to prevent IP-type technologies.
791 2010-12-24 05:37:39 <pop_> Kiba: you should
792 2010-12-24 05:37:43 <Kiba> pop_: reduce the size of the government
793 2010-12-24 05:37:53 <pop_> especially if they are dumping crap in your back yard
794 2010-12-24 05:38:06 <pop_> how are you going to stop them?
795 2010-12-24 05:38:07 <Kiba> until the neccescary need for lobbying end..so we don't have to play this game of looting
796 2010-12-24 05:38:20 <pop_> it's really about morals
797 2010-12-24 05:38:26 <Kiba> pop_: it's all incentives.
798 2010-12-24 05:38:27 <pop_> it always comes back to that
799 2010-12-24 05:38:28 <Kiba> don't you see?
800 2010-12-24 05:38:36 <BoBeR> guys
801 2010-12-24 05:38:37 <Kiba> democracy is two wolves and one chicken deciding what to eat for dinner
802 2010-12-24 05:38:38 <BoBeR> i solved it
803 2010-12-24 05:38:58 <BoBeR> the internet problem
804 2010-12-24 05:39:03 <BoBeR> its really communistic
805 2010-12-24 05:39:04 <BoBeR> but it works
806 2010-12-24 05:39:06 <BoBeR> meshnet
807 2010-12-24 05:39:09 <BoBeR> google up
808 2010-12-24 05:39:15 <BoBeR> mesh net can work
809 2010-12-24 05:39:15 <pop_> if I dump poison in your back yard what are you going to do about it
810 2010-12-24 05:39:20 <EvanR> lol
811 2010-12-24 05:39:22 <BoBeR> 40 bucks nad some software
812 2010-12-24 05:39:36 <EvanR> way ahead of you
813 2010-12-24 05:39:38 <EvanR> im on the mesh
814 2010-12-24 05:39:41 <BoBeR> really
815 2010-12-24 05:39:45 <pop_> will you just abandon and move?
816 2010-12-24 05:39:45 <EvanR> i dont have internet
817 2010-12-24 05:39:49 <EvanR> officially
818 2010-12-24 05:39:51 <BoBeR> im starting my soon
819 2010-12-24 05:39:58 <BoBeR> i need the router thing
820 2010-12-24 05:40:01 <BoBeR> whats a good one
821 2010-12-24 05:40:27 <Kiba> blah
822 2010-12-24 05:40:28 <EvanR> wireless i always go for what has non broken free drivers for linux
823 2010-12-24 05:40:29 <Kiba> who care about pop_
824 2010-12-24 05:40:46 <EvanR> certain atheros chipsets
825 2010-12-24 05:40:47 <pop_> what if you have oil on your property and I live next door and slant drill how are you going to stop me?
826 2010-12-24 05:40:57 <theymos> pop_: Under anarcho-capitalism, my defense agency would negotiate with your defense agency under prior contracts. Then most likely you would have to pay a gigantic fine for tresspassing.
827 2010-12-24 05:41:14 <BoBeR> under anarcho communism
828 2010-12-24 05:41:19 <BoBeR> we both sell the oil
829 2010-12-24 05:41:21 <BoBeR> and make money
830 2010-12-24 05:41:25 <pop_> theymos: but if I have money power and wealth I can make anything go away
831 2010-12-24 05:41:30 <BoBeR> that then we buy bread and give out for free
832 2010-12-24 05:41:47 <BoBeR> then its not an anarchy because your a government
833 2010-12-24 05:41:47 <pop_> I can buy a judge perhaps even your lawyer
834 2010-12-24 05:41:48 <EvanR> uhm no, dont you just give out the oil for free
835 2010-12-24 05:42:11 <theymos> pop_: Why would I hire a defense agency that uses buyable judges?
836 2010-12-24 05:42:37 <pop_> if I have wealth and power where willyou go?
837 2010-12-24 05:43:02 <pop_> ever read about the town of Pullman?
838 2010-12-24 05:43:07 <Kiba> how many agencies in the world would only cater to the rich and powerful?
839 2010-12-24 05:43:27 <EvanR> organized crime
840 2010-12-24 05:43:38 <pop_> that's what it is now
841 2010-12-24 05:43:43 <EvanR> lol
842 2010-12-24 05:43:49 <pop_> isn't it?
843 2010-12-24 05:43:50 <theymos> pop_: You would just buy the land from me. Otherwise you'll have to go to war with my defense agency, or pay more to bribe them into taking a big reputation hit.
844 2010-12-24 05:44:12 <pop_> theymos: you owna defence agnecy?
845 2010-12-24 05:44:23 <theymos> No. I'm talking about anarcho-capitalism.
846 2010-12-24 05:44:40 <Kiba> there is no point in conversing with a person who are unfamiliar with libertarianism and is a supporter of democracy
847 2010-12-24 05:44:55 <pop_> I know what libertarism is
848 2010-12-24 05:45:07 <pop_> you have to have a moral base for it tho
849 2010-12-24 05:45:17 <Kiba> libertarianism is an ethical philosophy
850 2010-12-24 05:45:34 <pop_> what do you do with those who don't agree?
851 2010-12-24 05:45:38 <Kiba> and moral base doesn't matter when it comes to economic incentives
852 2010-12-24 05:45:40 <pop_> toss them out?
853 2010-12-24 05:45:54 <pop_> well even Ron Paul would disagree with that
854 2010-12-24 05:46:04 <nanotube> theymos: even in the presence of govt and punishments and etc, there is no lack of fraudsters and scammers and grifters etc. in the absence of the explicit disincentives, i fail to see how you won't get even more of those
855 2010-12-24 05:46:08 <Kiba> Ron Paul is an Austrian. Even he would understand.
856 2010-12-24 05:46:27 <pop_> he's against abortion
857 2010-12-24 05:46:47 <Kiba> and Libertarians are divided on the issue of abortion, anyway.
858 2010-12-24 05:46:48 <pop_> peopel aren't so cut and dry
859 2010-12-24 05:47:00 <theymos> nanotube: There is a disincentive: You have to go to war with people, and war is expensive. Now you don't have to go to war in some cases: you can exploit the legal framework.
860 2010-12-24 05:47:10 <pop_> it's a very big liberty - what one does with their own body
861 2010-12-24 05:47:14 <pop_> even death
862 2010-12-24 05:47:35 <pop_> theymos: thatis what Wall Street has done
863 2010-12-24 05:47:37 <Kiba> you should read Democracy: The god that Fail
864 2010-12-24 05:47:41 <pop_> it's a financial WWIII
865 2010-12-24 05:47:52 <Kiba> the wall street ain't everything!
866 2010-12-24 05:48:01 <pop_> you don't have top bomb any more - just destroy the economy
867 2010-12-24 05:48:21 <pop_> no it's really about people - and most are pretty dumbed down
868 2010-12-24 05:48:44 <Kiba> people can't be expected to elect official anyways.
869 2010-12-24 05:49:03 <pop_> well the founders created the house
870 2010-12-24 05:49:05 <Kiba> they don't have time to make sure that their politicans actually do the right thing, never mind
871 2010-12-24 05:49:18 <pop_> you want to be king?
872 2010-12-24 05:49:18 <Kiba> actually knowing a thing or two about economics
873 2010-12-24 05:49:29 <Kiba> pop_: I don't need a damn ruler.
874 2010-12-24 05:49:55 <Kiba> I don't need a damn representive
875 2010-12-24 05:49:57 <Kiba> or a damn senator
876 2010-12-24 05:49:58 <theymos> Neither is good, but I would prefer a dictator who actually knows good economics over democracy.
877 2010-12-24 05:50:02 <Kiba> or a damn government official
878 2010-12-24 05:50:06 <nanotube> theymos: fact remains that a lot of people are gullible/stupid... and they'll be exploitable. and if there's no 'law of the land' to punish the exploiters, they'll be fruitful and multiply.
879 2010-12-24 05:50:11 <pop_> I never can get past this point with Libertarians
880 2010-12-24 05:50:45 <pop_> I'm actually for secession
881 2010-12-24 05:50:51 <Kiba> nanotube: it's not that they're gulliable/stupid, it just that they don't have time to learn economics.
882 2010-12-24 05:50:56 <pop_> I think the US is too big to fail
883 2010-12-24 05:51:02 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|pokes nanotube for op
884 2010-12-24 05:51:21 <pop_> they are busy working for less and less
885 2010-12-24 05:51:40 <Kiba> pop_: it's not about that..it's the rule.
886 2010-12-24 05:51:46 <pop_> a strong nation has a robust citizenry
887 2010-12-24 05:51:49 <Kiba> you can never have an educated public
888 2010-12-24 05:52:06 <Kiba> because it's just damn impossible and just damn inefficent
889 2010-12-24 05:52:16 <pop_> take Germany an economic powerhouse - 2% use credit cards - they are savers and yet it's a socialist country
890 2010-12-24 05:52:52 <Kiba> it's not a socialist country. It's a mixed economy
891 2010-12-24 05:53:00 <pop_> Germany has a very well educated population - but they are proud of their heritage - cept that part in WWI and WWII
892 2010-12-24 05:53:12 <pop_> it's a socialist country
893 2010-12-24 05:53:27 <pop_> U Care - pension - jobs and education are free
894 2010-12-24 05:53:44 <pop_> that's as close to socilist as you get
895 2010-12-24 05:53:52 <pop_> thing is Germany still makes things
896 2010-12-24 05:53:54 <theymos> nanotube: Anarcho-capitalism can only work if like 20% of the population knows why anarcho-capitalism is the way to go. Society organizes itself according to what people want. If people want an inferior government-based system, then that's what they'll get.
897 2010-12-24 05:54:02 <pop_> and well made things
898 2010-12-24 05:54:23 <Kiba> I guess even libertarianism have its fair share of idiots
899 2010-12-24 05:54:24 <pop_> theymos: agree and that's what the US has now
900 2010-12-24 05:54:28 <nanotube> nameless|: hmm... gribble didn't give it to you automagically eh?
901 2010-12-24 05:54:49 <nanotube> nameless|: can you try cycling the channel (just for a test)
902 2010-12-24 05:54:49 <pop_> I think culture plays a stong role
903 2010-12-24 05:55:02 <Kiba> theymos: in my graphic novel idea, I imagine a lot of societal unrest
904 2010-12-24 05:55:17 <pop_> just can't have too much nationalism and you have to conrtol the banks
905 2010-12-24 05:55:19 <Kiba> because many perceive anarcho-capitalism as a technocracy that serve only the rich
906 2010-12-24 05:55:38 <pop_> the US has cronie capitalism
907 2010-12-24 05:55:38 nameless has left (!~root@weowntheinter.net|)
908 2010-12-24 05:55:38 nameless has joined
909 2010-12-24 05:55:44 <BoBeR> lol
910 2010-12-24 05:55:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|When I joined I was nameless1
911 2010-12-24 05:55:50 <BoBeR> US has shit for capitalism
912 2010-12-24 05:55:57 <BoBeR> now your nameless|
913 2010-12-24 05:56:02 <Kiba> of course
914 2010-12-24 05:56:04 <Kiba> the openining scene
915 2010-12-24 05:56:04 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I'm a nameless pipe
916 2010-12-24 05:56:08 <pop_> BoBeR: yes too true even that's gone now
917 2010-12-24 05:56:23 <Kiba> have a PDA that's defending a family with a little home in the middle of the buisness distract..they never want to sell...
918 2010-12-24 05:56:40 <pop_> I believe the US is suffering from corportism we are a plutocracy
919 2010-12-24 05:56:58 <Kiba> but a big corporation CEO is planning a scheme so he can get that family property for himselves...attempting to convert his economic power into political power
920 2010-12-24 05:57:02 <nanotube> nameless|: ah ok well that explains it. :)
921 2010-12-24 05:57:32 <theymos> Kiba: Does it take place in an anarcho-capitalistic society?
922 2010-12-24 05:57:35 <pop_> greed is the problem unbridled greed
923 2010-12-24 05:57:47 <pop_> Blankfein says he is doing Gods work
924 2010-12-24 05:57:52 <Kiba> theymos: yeah, and the CEO end up dead and the scheme of the corporation's attempt takeover become public
925 2010-12-24 05:58:07 <theymos> Happy ending ;)
926 2010-12-24 05:58:07 <pop_> manifest destiny - didn't work out so well for the natives
927 2010-12-24 05:58:21 <BoBeR> i cant wait for wikileaks BOA leak
928 2010-12-24 05:58:21 <Kiba> that's like the first chapter
929 2010-12-24 05:58:21 <pop_> that's where the middel class in the US is heading
930 2010-12-24 05:58:31 <BoBeR> thats gonna fuck shit up
931 2010-12-24 05:58:33 <nanotube> theymos: well, i have no problem with people trying things... i just have doubts about ancap's long-term viability in the face of a persistent "bad guy" onslaught.
932 2010-12-24 05:58:37 <pop_> BoBeR: I hope they have more than BOA
933 2010-12-24 05:58:47 <Kiba> BoBeR: based on the boring shit they have with cablegate
934 2010-12-24 05:58:50 <pop_> BOA is a zombie bank - right after WAMU
935 2010-12-24 05:58:54 <Kiba> I bet BoA will be b oring shit as well
936 2010-12-24 05:59:00 <pop_> Paulson took Lewis for a ride
937 2010-12-24 05:59:02 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I think I'm going to get into the day trading business
938 2010-12-24 05:59:04 <Kiba> but the reaction is FUNNY AS SHIT
939 2010-12-24 05:59:22 <pop_> Paulson should be in prison for treason
940 2010-12-24 05:59:34 <Kiba> US gov basically gone bunker even though cablegate make them look good
941 2010-12-24 06:00:01 <Kiba> counteracting the positive effect of cablegate does for American image
942 2010-12-24 06:00:01 <pop_> diggingin toilets for DNA is pretty weird
943 2010-12-24 06:00:22 <nanotube> nameless|: trading what kind of asset? :)
944 2010-12-24 06:00:22 <pop_> well I'm looking for a new country
945 2010-12-24 06:00:39 <pop_> I'd love to bitcoin that
946 2010-12-24 06:00:45 darrob has joined
947 2010-12-24 06:00:56 <Kiba> nanotube: the persistent "bad guy" onslaught is the theme of my graphic novel idea
948 2010-12-24 06:01:16 <nanotube> mmm well... i look forward to checking it out, Kiba :)
949 2010-12-24 06:01:23 <pop_> so is everyone here in the US?
950 2010-12-24 06:01:25 <Kiba> starting with the CEO's evil takeover of a family house
951 2010-12-24 06:01:28 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nanotube: probably stocks
952 2010-12-24 06:01:39 <Kiba> I rather have writer write the story..and I do the artwork
953 2010-12-24 06:03:01 <nanotube> nameless|: hmm well good luck :)
954 2010-12-24 06:03:08 <theymos> nanotube: The situation is kind of like Bitcoin, which might also fail to survive a serious attacker. But, like Bitcoin, I think an anarcho-capitalist society with more than 50% good people will tend to be OK.
955 2010-12-24 06:03:09 <pop_> anyway back to bitcoin - so I shoudl just close this program now unless I'm mining?
956 2010-12-24 06:03:45 <Kiba> aren't there's like a billion way you could DDOS bitcoin nodes?
957 2010-12-24 06:03:48 <Kiba> and the network?
958 2010-12-24 06:03:56 <theymos> pop_: I just leave it open. It takes a while to start up, and it doesn't use many resources.
959 2010-12-24 06:04:10 <pop_> what is it doing just open?
960 2010-12-24 06:04:26 <pop_> says 12 confirmations
961 2010-12-24 06:04:28 <aximilation> stealing y0ur passw3rdz
962 2010-12-24 06:04:32 <nanotube> pop_: relaying network transactions. receiving blocks...
963 2010-12-24 06:04:41 <pop_> aximilation: that's probably not funny
964 2010-12-24 06:04:48 <aximilation> :d
965 2010-12-24 06:05:07 <nanotube> aximilation: bitcoin lolcat, do it now. hehe
966 2010-12-24 06:05:13 <pop_> thats the kind of stuff people worry about and won't take to it
967 2010-12-24 06:05:39 <pop_> what does relaying trans and blocks mean to me?
968 2010-12-24 06:05:53 <aximilation> helping the network communicate
969 2010-12-24 06:06:10 <pop_> and what does that do for me or the system?
970 2010-12-24 06:06:45 <theymos> It's not very helpful for the network unless you accept incoming connections.
971 2010-12-24 06:06:55 <nanotube> well, it uses a minimal amount of network ... and keeps your client up to date on the block chain.
972 2010-12-24 06:07:17 <nanotube> but you really don't have to run it all the time... e.g., i don't run the client on my desktop all the time, only fire it up when i need to.
973 2010-12-24 06:07:18 <pop_> and the block chain means?
974 2010-12-24 06:07:24 <nanotube> (but i do run a persistent node on a vps)
975 2010-12-24 06:07:31 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki block chain
976 2010-12-24 06:07:32 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain | Dec 20, 2010 ... Every block contains a hash of the previous block. This has the effect of creating a chain of blocks from the genesis block to the current ...
977 2010-12-24 06:07:34 <nanotube> pop_: --^
978 2010-12-24 06:07:51 <nanotube> theymos: (yep, handy :) )
979 2010-12-24 06:08:53 sec^nd has joined
980 2010-12-24 06:09:13 <pop_> don't think I understood that all
981 2010-12-24 06:09:44 <theymos> That particular article was written for people who have already read the other articles. try ,,(bc,wiki block)
982 2010-12-24 06:09:44 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Blocks | Dec 19, 2010 ... Data is permanently recorded in the Bitcoin network through blocks. Each block contains all recent transactions, a nonce (random number), ...
983 2010-12-24 06:09:46 <aximilation> just get to reading, then read some more :-D
984 2010-12-24 06:10:15 <nanotube> pop_: it's a bit complicated as a system... takes some reading to get your head around it.
985 2010-12-24 06:10:19 <pop_> yeah this is going to take some time for me to understand
986 2010-12-24 06:10:47 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nanotube: thanks
987 2010-12-24 06:10:50 <pop_> but I like the idea for a number of reasons
988 2010-12-24 06:11:01 <nanotube> nameless|: be sure to let us know how it goes. :)
989 2010-12-24 06:11:30 <pop_> I always look for the simplest way to explain things so I can communicate with people this is new to
990 2010-12-24 06:11:56 <pop_> finding relative examples
991 2010-12-24 06:12:44 <pop_> most people don't want to look under the hood, they just want it to go
992 2010-12-24 06:13:07 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|nanotube: Don't worry, if I make big bucks I'm going to buy a tesla
993 2010-12-24 06:13:32 <nanotube> pop_: yea... we've been struggling for a 'simple elevator-speech explanation'... :)
994 2010-12-24 06:13:54 <nanotube> nameless|: tesla? not an ati 5970 ? or you mean tesla the car? :)
995 2010-12-24 06:14:24 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|tesla roadster
996 2010-12-24 06:14:40 <nanotube> heh ic. :)
997 2010-12-24 06:14:50 remmy_ has joined
998 2010-12-24 06:14:52 <pop_> when I first got into computers I had to explain how files worked in windows to people who never used one - they did however know how to ise a filing cabinet - that helped
999 2010-12-24 06:14:54 <nanotube> tesla the car it is.
1000 2010-12-24 06:15:33 <pop_> I saw a car that runs on air
1001 2010-12-24 06:15:47 <pop_> and one on hydro
1002 2010-12-24 06:19:16 <aximilation> so anyone selling BTC tonight? I have some extra funds in paypal and could use some BTC to play with
1003 2010-12-24 06:19:50 <nanotube> aximilation: try asking on #bitcoin-otc
1004 2010-12-24 06:20:12 <aximilation> otc? ** trade channel?
1005 2010-12-24 06:21:21 <aximilation> but ty.
1006 2010-12-24 06:22:47 <nanotube> yea, trade channel. :)
1007 2010-12-24 06:26:22 <pop_> well thank you all for your time - I'll ghave some interesting things to bring to the table this weekend about bitcoin
1008 2010-12-24 06:26:47 <pop_> I'll think about trading my product for them
1009 2010-12-24 06:27:05 <nanotube> pop_: have fun - feel free to drop by if you have any more questions.
1010 2010-12-24 06:27:06 <pop_> anyone here a spcialist on the topic willing to go on TV or readio?
1011 2010-12-24 06:27:20 <nanotube> (but be sure to read the site, faq, and wiki first :) )
1012 2010-12-24 06:27:25 <pop_> er radio
1013 2010-12-24 06:28:03 <pop_> good way to get soem free press
1014 2010-12-24 06:28:28 <pop_> nanotube: I'll bookmark it and link from my sites
1015 2010-12-24 06:28:57 <pop_> I'd like to at least try it once
1016 2010-12-24 06:29:15 <nanotube> yep :)
1017 2010-12-24 06:29:24 <pop_> right nowI take USD and silver coins
1018 2010-12-24 06:29:35 <nanotube> re: tv or radio... well, throw out your proposal specifics, and see what shakes out.
1019 2010-12-24 06:30:07 <pop_> someone who really kows what this is and can explain it in laymens terms
1020 2010-12-24 06:30:32 <pop_> a lot of politically active peopel and gold and silver buyers
1021 2010-12-24 06:31:16 * Kiba gets mad
1022 2010-12-24 06:31:33 <Kiba> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/eqj5b/redditor_bails_out_student_jailed_for_filming/
1023 2010-12-24 06:31:37 <Kiba> read this...
1024 2010-12-24 06:33:44 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1025 2010-12-24 06:34:05 sgornick has joined
1026 2010-12-24 06:35:08 <Kiba> good thing, somebody decides to help out that student
1027 2010-12-24 06:35:11 <nanotube> pretty shitty, Kiba
1028 2010-12-24 06:35:46 <nanotube> Kiba: let that be a lesson to all of us - if you get video of similar content, you post it /anonymously/ on the internet, not under your own name.
1029 2010-12-24 06:36:06 <Kiba> a police department that doesn't like being camed to death is...a supspicious
1030 2010-12-24 06:36:14 <Kiba> organization
1031 2010-12-24 06:36:14 Cusipzzz has quit ()
1032 2010-12-24 06:36:21 <nanotube> and then all the pissed off cops can have a ball trying to find you, good luck.
1033 2010-12-24 06:36:31 <Kiba> obviouly, many policemen and women...
1034 2010-12-24 06:36:53 <Kiba> would like to be caught on tape..
1035 2010-12-24 06:37:10 <Kiba> since the accusation can goes both way
1036 2010-12-24 06:38:25 <BoBeR> cop watch FTW
1037 2010-12-24 06:38:33 <BoBeR> and blur out faces of ppl
1038 2010-12-24 06:38:38 <BoBeR> other then cops victim
1039 2010-12-24 06:38:42 <BoBeR> no one likes a snitch
1040 2010-12-24 06:39:13 <BoBeR> leak it to /b/ to make it internet famouse
1041 2010-12-24 06:39:40 <Kiba> cop car with cam prevent many abuses
1042 2010-12-24 06:40:30 <BoBeR> most do
1043 2010-12-24 06:40:37 <BoBeR> but police will say its not worknig
1044 2010-12-24 06:40:44 <BoBeR> or its evidence and cant be released
1045 2010-12-24 06:40:49 <BoBeR> its all the same BS
1046 2010-12-24 06:40:56 <BoBeR> like stated by someone yesterday
1047 2010-12-24 06:41:13 <BoBeR> all cops should get 2x the sentance because of there position of power
1048 2010-12-24 06:41:19 <Kiba> some policemen will say these kind of bullshit
1049 2010-12-24 06:41:24 <Kiba> some policemen will be gald
1050 2010-12-24 06:41:37 <BoBeR> and 4x if they do it while on duty and with there autority
1051 2010-12-24 06:41:44 <BoBeR> all cops are bastards
1052 2010-12-24 06:41:48 <BoBeR> dont ever forget that
1053 2010-12-24 06:42:07 <BoBeR> they may start by saying i want to help the community but all they do is turn corrupt
1054 2010-12-24 06:42:53 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1055 2010-12-24 06:43:14 <pop_> I have to get out of this country
1056 2010-12-24 06:43:21 <Kiba> turn corrupt?
1057 2010-12-24 06:43:28 <Kiba> sound like an INCENTIVE problem!
1058 2010-12-24 06:43:43 <pop_> it's pride
1059 2010-12-24 06:44:01 <pop_> hard to believe the kids been in jail for 8 months
1060 2010-12-24 06:44:18 sgornick has joined
1061 2010-12-24 06:44:23 <pop_> even if he said something
1062 2010-12-24 06:45:08 <BoBeR> !google lmctfy
1063 2010-12-24 06:45:14 <BoBeR> let me censore that for you?
1064 2010-12-24 06:45:21 <pop_> hard to tell was the cop white or black and who wanted who to be lynched?
1065 2010-12-24 07:03:13 gibbz has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1066 2010-12-24 07:26:16 pop_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1067 2010-12-24 07:29:22 <necrodearia> Woo, almost 100,000 blocks. Will there be any celebration?
1068 2010-12-24 07:30:13 <necrodearia> sgornick, Re: Bitcoin 3.9 bug and irc log since just before discovery see http://please.bitcoin.me/irclog.txt (from a day or so ago in case you missed it)
1069 2010-12-24 07:31:47 <newsham> necro: at 10k, santa will guide his sleigh to all the good boys and girls
1070 2010-12-24 07:32:27 <theymos> And give them all bitcoins?
1071 2010-12-24 07:32:35 <satamusic_> yay!
1072 2010-12-24 07:32:45 <newsham> unlikely
1073 2010-12-24 07:32:48 <satamusic_> :/
1074 2010-12-24 07:32:59 <newsham> candy canes more likely
1075 2010-12-24 07:33:16 <satamusic_> bitcandy
1076 2010-12-24 07:33:24 <newsham> sugar should be currency in america.
1077 2010-12-24 07:34:28 <satamusic_> *high fructose corn syrup
1078 2010-12-24 07:34:35 <BoBeR> it already is
1079 2010-12-24 07:34:40 <BoBeR> in fat kids at school
1080 2010-12-24 07:34:50 <BoBeR> they trade snickers for math answers
1081 2010-12-24 07:34:53 <satamusic_> they trade junk food
1082 2010-12-24 07:35:10 <Keefe> at 100,000 blocks, santa will give one lucky person 50 btc ;)
1083 2010-12-24 07:35:24 <newsham> 100k? getting ahead of ourselves
1084 2010-12-24 07:35:32 <newsham> oops, my bad.
1085 2010-12-24 07:35:35 <newsham> why did i think 10k?
1086 2010-12-24 07:35:36 <newsham> heh
1087 2010-12-24 07:35:46 <newsham> <- dumb
1088 2010-12-24 07:36:13 <Keefe> wonder if the priv key to the 100,000th block will be worth more than 50 btc in collection value
1089 2010-12-24 07:36:26 <Keefe> could print it on a card and save it
1090 2010-12-24 07:37:01 <newsham> start an auction for the 100k block, sellit to the highest bidder
1091 2010-12-24 07:37:11 <BoBeR> lol thats just gay
1092 2010-12-24 07:37:23 <Asphodelia> >:(
1093 2010-12-24 07:37:25 <newsham> i bet it gets at least 51btc ;-)
1094 2010-12-24 07:37:27 <BoBeR> no one needs blacks like that
1095 2010-12-24 07:37:32 <BoBeR> blocks
1096 2010-12-24 07:37:42 <BoBeR> the real keepers are 1337
1097 2010-12-24 07:37:45 <BoBeR> and 666
1098 2010-12-24 07:37:46 <theymos> I don't think the collection value would be all that much, since 100,000-block generations won't end up being too rare. Maybe an extra 100 BTC.
1099 2010-12-24 07:38:06 <BoBeR> we are hackers not some normal ppl that like 100000 and other nice numbers
1100 2010-12-24 07:38:21 <newsham> so wait for 0x100000
1101 2010-12-24 07:38:47 <newsham> wake me up when we're at 0x1badd00d
1102 2010-12-24 07:39:19 <theymos> The coins in block 0 would probably be worth 50,000 BTC or more.
1103 2010-12-24 07:40:19 <BoBeR> block 1 you mean
1104 2010-12-24 07:40:26 <newsham> if we had a graph of the transactions in the blocks, we'd know who owns em
1105 2010-12-24 07:40:27 <BoBeR> and no one has spent it yet
1106 2010-12-24 07:40:32 <theymos> No. http://blockexplorer.com/b/0
1107 2010-12-24 07:43:51 <BoBeR> my bad
1108 2010-12-24 07:45:33 RazielZ has joined
1109 2010-12-24 07:45:54 <newsham> whats the lowest block spent (err.. coin from the lowest block, that is spent)
1110 2010-12-24 07:52:40 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1111 2010-12-24 07:53:13 <theymos> Block 9.
1112 2010-12-24 07:55:45 <theymos> 50,984 generations are unspent: 2,549,200 BTC.
1113 2010-12-24 07:56:29 <newsham> thats a lot of coin
1114 2010-12-24 07:57:32 <necrodearia> At least 9,000 of them are lost.
1115 2010-12-24 07:57:51 <necrodearia> 9,000btc not 9,000 generations
1116 2010-12-24 07:58:35 <necrodearia> Actually, iirc, the 9,000 lost were spent, so nevermind.
1117 2010-12-24 07:58:37 <newsham> probably in the couch
1118 2010-12-24 07:59:42 Asphodelia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1119 2010-12-24 08:00:42 <lfm> theymos: My program seems to find that 51,200
1120 2010-12-24 08:00:57 <lfm> 5 blocks are unspent. I wonder why the difference
1121 2010-12-24 08:01:13 <lfm> theymos: My program seems to find that 51,205 that is
1122 2010-12-24 08:01:21 <BoBeR> lol
1123 2010-12-24 08:01:29 <BoBeR> i find that i know 2.2 are lost
1124 2010-12-24 08:01:34 <BoBeR> as i sent them to some one
1125 2010-12-24 08:01:40 <BoBeR> and he deleted the wallet
1126 2010-12-24 08:01:42 <BoBeR> the faggot
1127 2010-12-24 08:01:52 <theymos> lfm: Want to compare lists?
1128 2010-12-24 08:02:20 <lfm> theymos: sigh that might take a long time
1129 2010-12-24 08:02:45 <theymos> Not if we can produce the exact same format in the same order.
1130 2010-12-24 08:03:08 <newsham> once you settle format, order is easy
1131 2010-12-24 08:03:10 <BoBeR> XML wtf
1132 2010-12-24 08:03:19 <BoBeR> ftw
1133 2010-12-24 08:03:21 <BoBeR> my bad
1134 2010-12-24 08:03:40 <lfm> plain text file of block numbers?
1135 2010-12-24 08:03:57 <aximilation> perl to the rescue!
1136 2010-12-24 08:04:10 <lfm> and I agree #9 is the first spent one
1137 2010-12-24 08:05:14 <theymos> lfm: Sure.
1138 2010-12-24 08:08:27 <lfm> I think I know the discrepency already, you know about those "special" way that the gut took the 5.00BTC royalty for generating with his program? I mighta counted them twice
1139 2010-12-24 08:10:38 <lfm> there is 73 of them!
1140 2010-12-24 08:11:44 <lfm> ok thats not enuf
1141 2010-12-24 08:12:03 <necrodearia> theymos, lfm If you provide the lists to me I can compare them
1142 2010-12-24 08:12:38 <necrodearia> even if they are in different format/order
1143 2010-12-24 08:13:28 <newsham> he's going to use technology!
1144 2010-12-24 08:14:47 <theymos> Here's mine: http://theymos.ath.cx:34183/output.txt
1145 2010-12-24 08:15:12 <necrodearia> got it
1146 2010-12-24 08:20:12 <theymos> I'm considering a coin completely spent if any of its outputs are spent. Maybe that's the difference.
1147 2010-12-24 08:20:41 <lfm> ok try http://www3.telus.net/unsp.txt
1148 2010-12-24 08:20:50 <necrodearia> 404
1149 2010-12-24 08:21:06 <lfm> ok try http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/unsp.txt
1150 2010-12-24 08:21:13 <necrodearia> got it
1151 2010-12-24 08:23:20 <theymos> It looks like a combination of the thing you mentioned and the thing I mentioned.
1152 2010-12-24 08:27:10 <theymos> You're also counting duplicate transactions like the one in 91880, which wouldn't actually be valid if spent.
1153 2010-12-24 08:31:49 <lfm> huh? whats wrong with 91880?
1154 2010-12-24 08:32:06 <BoBeR> theres a dublicate
1155 2010-12-24 08:32:08 <theymos> http://blockexplorer.com/b/91880
1156 2010-12-24 08:32:59 <BoBeR> hows that double spending
1157 2010-12-24 08:34:01 <lfm> there is no trouble spending those
1158 2010-12-24 08:34:01 <BoBeR> 1JiTbxqmmkC9izgpC9QLcqGWbQs42PtC7r IS RICHHHHHHHHHHHHH
1159 2010-12-24 08:34:12 <theymos> lfm: You can spend one, but not both.
1160 2010-12-24 08:35:00 <lfm> nope you can spend both cuz txn inputs are different block numbers
1161 2010-12-24 08:35:44 <lfm> i think
1162 2010-12-24 08:35:46 <theymos> Inputs don't contain block numbers. Each transaction is *exactly the same*. Bitcoin can't distinguish between them.
1163 2010-12-24 08:36:12 <lfm> oh, ya, I never checked for that
1164 2010-12-24 08:37:31 <lfm> so thats what the extra nonce is for?
1165 2010-12-24 08:38:20 <theymos> It's mostly to prevent different workers from doing the exact same work. But it also prevents this.
1166 2010-12-24 08:38:48 <theymos> Actually, I think switching keys for each generation is the main way of preventing this.
1167 2010-12-24 08:40:10 <lfm> hmm, ya. I can see where someone might prefer all their generation go to the same key tho
1168 2010-12-24 08:41:24 <theymos> Then they have to do something special with extraNonce. Maybe just increment a number in it for every solved block.
1169 2010-12-24 08:45:59 <lfm> You learn something every day. so thats why extra-nonce is there. Its like Satoshi thoght of everything. I wondered why it was there
1170 2010-12-24 08:46:36 <lfm> I spoze there may be other reasons too
1171 2010-12-24 09:01:57 ThomasV has joined
1172 2010-12-24 09:05:41 <bd_> well, there are plenty of other ways to nonce things up too. You could add some dummy code (PUSH+POP) to the script for the stipend transaction for example
1173 2010-12-24 09:12:39 <mahadri> The extra nonce field can be up to 94 bytes long. The genesis block's extra nonce contains the string "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks".
1174 2010-12-24 09:14:55 <BoBeR> its 4 14 am
1175 2010-12-24 09:14:59 <BoBeR> go to bed everyone
1176 2010-12-24 09:15:16 <lfm> depends on your time zone dont it
1177 2010-12-24 09:15:45 <MT`AwAy> the longer extraNonce is, the more cpu you'll need to solve the block (it's not much, but when you do 5 million hashes/sec, it starts to accumulate)
1178 2010-12-24 09:16:02 <necrodearia> boo, my computer is still trying to compute the differences of the two block lists =/
1179 2010-12-24 09:16:04 <MT`AwAy> BoBeR: it's 18:13 here, and it's xmas eve, in a few hours we'll be on 25th
1180 2010-12-24 09:16:21 <lfm> txn are not part of the block hash except for the merkle tree hash
1181 2010-12-24 09:17:07 <MT`AwAy> lfm: is it a reply to me? :o
1182 2010-12-24 09:17:43 <lfm> MT`AwAy: ya, so your hash rate is independant of the number or size of the txn s
1183 2010-12-24 09:17:55 <MT`AwAy> lfm: extraNonce is not part of txn, but part of the header itself
1184 2010-12-24 09:18:07 <theymos> No. It's in the generation's scriptSig.
1185 2010-12-24 09:18:12 <MT`AwAy> nah?
1186 2010-12-24 09:18:49 <MT`AwAy> a guy called theymos said something different on http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1332.msg14966#msg14966
1187 2010-12-24 09:18:49 <MT`AwAy> :D
1188 2010-12-24 09:18:52 <bitbot> How to overthrow the GPU Oligarchs : theymos: When you generate, you calculate hashes of the block header. Hashing more data is slower than hashing less data, so the block header is critically of a fixed size for everyone, with one exception. After every hash attempt, you increment the Nonce header field, but since this field is only 32 bytes long, it overflows a lo...
1189 2010-12-24 09:18:58 <lfm> MT`AwAy: not really, you only run the hash on the 80 byte block header
1190 2010-12-24 09:19:01 <theymos> MT`AwAy: I changed my mind...
1191 2010-12-24 09:19:06 <MT`AwAy> ok
1192 2010-12-24 09:19:27 <MT`AwAy> was just basing my mind on the result of google for "bitcoin extraNonce"
1193 2010-12-24 09:19:28 <MT`AwAy> :p
1194 2010-12-24 09:19:42 <MT`AwAy> (I haven't come to the block scanning part yet on my client, but it's soon)
1195 2010-12-24 09:19:58 <lfm> mt oh ya, you cant quite beleive everything you find on the internet
1196 2010-12-24 09:20:29 <theymos> You can see here where the generation scriptSig is constructed with the extraNonce value: txNew.vin[0].scriptSig << nBits << CBigNum(nExtraNonce);
1197 2010-12-24 09:22:01 <theymos> For some reason the current difficulty (nBits) is encoded in the scriptSig, even though the exact same information is in the header.
1198 2010-12-24 09:23:52 <lfm> Any idea what LockTime is for?
1199 2010-12-24 09:24:29 <theymos> Yes. It contains a UTC time or block number. The transaction can't be included in a block until after that time (or the block will be invalid).
1200 2010-12-24 09:25:15 <lfm> no, LockTime in the txn, it is always zero it seems
1201 2010-12-24 09:25:35 <theymos> It is in the transaction.
1202 2010-12-24 09:25:55 <theymos> So all current transactions can be included as of block 0, and are always included.
1203 2010-12-24 09:26:15 <theymos> Bitcoin used to have a feature where you could update a transaction before it's included in a block. With this feature, LockTime is useful for escrows and other things. The replacement feature is disabled now, though, so it's useless.
1204 2010-12-24 09:26:37 <lfm> oh, ok, so kinda turns out as a waste of bits huh
1205 2010-12-24 09:26:48 <theymos> The feature will probably be enabled again at some point.
1206 2010-12-24 09:26:50 <LobsterMan> http://www.newslobster.com/music/dubstep-snowman
1207 2010-12-24 09:26:50 <LobsterMan> note the timestamp :]
1208 2010-12-24 09:28:23 <theymos> The sequence field in inputs is also used for lockTime/replacement. It shows how old an input is relative to other versions of the same input in different transactions.
1209 2010-12-24 09:29:51 <lfm> ok, that confused me.
1210 2010-12-24 09:30:48 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1211 2010-12-24 09:32:09 <theymos> To replace a transaction with LockTime, you would send out a new version of the same transaction. Other nodes are able to tell that this new version is new because the sequence number for all of its inputs are lower than the sequence number for all currently-known inputs. Right now sequence is always UINT_MAX -- the "oldest possible" version.
1212 2010-12-24 09:33:05 <MT`AwAy> https://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_up-day.png <- we got almost 600 nodes accepting bitcoin connections :)
1213 2010-12-24 09:38:19 satamusic has joined
1214 2010-12-24 09:39:19 ebel has joined
1215 2010-12-24 09:40:25 <lfm> MT`AwAy: how often are those check to see if they're still up?
1216 2010-12-24 09:45:39 <MT`AwAy> lfm, about once an hour
1217 2010-12-24 09:46:25 <MT`AwAy> if one node is down however it is flagged as such for 24 hours, and if after 24 hours it still appears into other clients' addr reply, a connection attempt is retried
1218 2010-12-24 09:46:55 nathan7_ has quit (Changing host)
1219 2010-12-24 09:46:55 nathan7_ has joined
1220 2010-12-24 09:46:57 nathan7_ is now known as nathan7
1221 2010-12-24 09:48:06 <necrodearia> woo, finally: 79764, 80300, 80661, 80737, 80783, 81172, 81302, 81304, 81325, 81342, 81361, 81422, 81484, 81565, 81697, 81942, 81950, 81977, 81983, 82119, 82173, 82409, 82593, 83444, 83533, 83556, 83563, 83629, 83763, 83986, 84034, 84344, 84387, 84482, 84904, 85174, 85260, 85364, 85384, 85475, 85670, 85807, 85894, 86267, 86316, 86340, 86480, 86490, 86493, 86508, 86737, 86754, 86763, 86790, 87912, 88964, 89253, 89380, 91842, 91880, 9
1222 2010-12-24 09:48:06 <necrodearia> 5420, 97017, 99004
1223 2010-12-24 09:58:25 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1224 2010-12-24 10:05:49 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1225 2010-12-24 10:12:44 <lfm> necrodearia: did you try the diff program on linux?
1226 2010-12-24 10:13:04 <necrodearia> yeah, that didn't work out as anticipated.
1227 2010-12-24 10:13:22 <lfm> diff -c?
1228 2010-12-24 10:13:28 <necrodearia> I didn't try that.
1229 2010-12-24 10:14:33 <lfm> also his has cr-lf and mine is just lf! we didnt specify
1230 2010-12-24 10:14:41 <necrodearia> I removed the crs
1231 2010-12-24 10:15:55 <lfm> you took out the dupes in my list too?
1232 2010-12-24 10:17:44 <lfm> diff -c works pretty good I think
1233 2010-12-24 10:22:25 <necrodearia> lfm, I didn't take out dupes.
1234 2010-12-24 10:23:31 <necrodearia> yeah, `diff -c` is quite fast
1235 2010-12-24 10:28:05 <lfm> wow 99004 and 97017 are new type. looks like the co-op mining doing a trick
1236 2010-12-24 10:28:45 noagendamarket has joined
1237 2010-12-24 10:28:52 <sipa> necrodearia: what's that list?
1238 2010-12-24 10:29:32 <theymos> Yeah; puddinpop's pooled mining server splists earnings like that. All of the recipients actually get "Generated (0.01 matures in x)", which is awesome.
1239 2010-12-24 10:29:47 <lfm> Theymos and me were disagreeing over the number of generated blocks that are unspent. those are (some of) the blocks we dissagreed on how to count
1240 2010-12-24 10:29:47 <necrodearia> difference between lfm and theymos's blocks that are unspent
1241 2010-12-24 10:30:34 <sipa> hmm, is there a way to ask "block number N" in blockexplorer?
1242 2010-12-24 10:30:42 <lfm> theymos some of them are sub cent values too, that auta make for some controversy! grin
1243 2010-12-24 10:31:05 <theymos> sipa: Just search for the number.
1244 2010-12-24 10:31:26 <sipa> bah, should have thought of that :)
1245 2010-12-24 10:32:15 <theymos> Strangely, no one complained about network implications of sub-cent transactions.
1246 2010-12-24 10:39:33 StrangeCharm has joined
1247 2010-12-24 10:45:39 <lolcat^> Why should they?
1248 2010-12-24 10:47:00 <theymos> People are worried about transaction spam. Sub-cent transactions allow you to spam easier. A generator could fill an entire block with sub-cent outputs to their generation.
1249 2010-12-24 10:48:14 Diablo-D3 has joined
1250 2010-12-24 10:51:05 <lolcat^> If I send bitcoins back and forth for myself, won't that slow things up?
1251 2010-12-24 10:52:12 <theymos> The network will detect what you're doing, and those transactions will have low priority. Generators get to ignore this for their own blocks, though.
1252 2010-12-24 10:55:09 <lolcat^> What if I use hundreds of clients?
1253 2010-12-24 10:55:47 <theymos> The network will see that you're using the same coins repeatedly.
1254 2010-12-24 10:56:31 <lolcat^> Hmm
1255 2010-12-24 10:56:44 <lolcat^> So used coins are bad?
1256 2010-12-24 10:58:40 <theymos> Only when you send the same ones many times within a few blocks of each other.
1257 2010-12-24 10:59:05 midnightmagic_ has joined
1258 2010-12-24 10:59:09 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,stats
1259 2010-12-24 10:59:11 <gribble> Current Blocks: 99185 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 1614 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 18 hours, 14 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 15135.41754620
1260 2010-12-24 10:59:21 <Cdh> 2!~cdh@p57B445F0.dip.t-dialin.net|so i get a million clients, wait until every of them has generated a block and then send the smallest amount possible to any other of my clients
1261 2010-12-24 10:59:29 <midnightmagic_> difficulty estimate has dropped a tad.
1262 2010-12-24 10:59:51 <Cdh> 2!~cdh@p57B445F0.dip.t-dialin.net|repeat until all coins spent
1263 2010-12-24 11:00:13 <lfm> lolcat^: if you really want to try hard enough you can kinda bog down the net with spam transactions. It will be noticed tho and the odds are the net will figure out who you are
1264 2010-12-24 11:00:54 <theymos> Cdh|2: Generated coins are also considered "young". You could save up many coins for a long time, but once they are spent, they become young again, and you'll have to wait several days before they rival the average transaction in priority.
1265 2010-12-24 11:01:07 <lolcat^> Cdh|2: Then you could generate millons of coins and transact money all the time...
1266 2010-12-24 11:01:34 <lfm> lolcat^: you cant generate millions of coins really
1267 2010-12-24 11:01:48 <lolcat^> I can
1268 2010-12-24 11:01:51 <theymos> You can with sub-cent outputs...
1269 2010-12-24 11:02:05 <lolcat^> All I need is 5000 ati cards...
1270 2010-12-24 11:02:18 <lfm> lolcat^: ok you do that
1271 2010-12-24 11:02:27 <Cdh> 2!~cdh@p57B445F0.dip.t-dialin.net|i'd only need access to the supercomputer of my university ;)
1272 2010-12-24 11:02:43 <lfm> Cdh|2: good luck with that
1273 2010-12-24 11:03:55 <lolcat^> If I earn a lot I'd buy all the bitcoins.
1274 2010-12-24 11:04:06 ThomasV has joined
1275 2010-12-24 11:05:13 <theymos> You'd drive the price up to a point where you couldn't buy any more.
1276 2010-12-24 11:05:29 <lolcat^> I'd get new money every month.
1277 2010-12-24 11:05:44 <lfm> lolcat^: well you couldnt buy ALL the bitcoins. You might buy all the coins on the market and drive the price sky high in the process
1278 2010-12-24 11:06:09 <[Noodles]> please do so ^.^
1279 2010-12-24 11:06:12 <Cdh> 2!~cdh@p57B445F0.dip.t-dialin.net|sounds like a good plan
1280 2010-12-24 11:06:24 <Cdh> 2!~cdh@p57B445F0.dip.t-dialin.net|buy all bitcoins, wait until price is high, sell cleverly
1281 2010-12-24 11:07:22 <lfm> Cdh|2: ya, good luck with that one too
1282 2010-12-24 11:07:37 <lolcat^> probably smartest to buy enough to generate all new blocks
1283 2010-12-24 11:07:45 <Cdh> 2!~cdh@p57B445F0.dip.t-dialin.net|well, you just need enaugh starting money
1284 2010-12-24 11:08:55 <lfm> lolcat^: doent really work that way. other generators will always have a chance
1285 2010-12-24 11:09:25 <lolcat^> If I have 1000x the power off them they won't...
1286 2010-12-24 11:09:27 <ArtForz> errr... nope, if you have >50% generation power, you can generate all blocks
1287 2010-12-24 11:09:47 <ArtForz> just fork the chain whenever someone else finds a block
1288 2010-12-24 11:09:48 <lolcat^> ArtForz: Only >50%?
1289 2010-12-24 11:10:12 <lfm> oh ok ya It really worries me he might do that
1290 2010-12-24 11:10:45 <ArtForz> right now you'd need about $100k in GPUs to pull that off reliably
1291 2010-12-24 11:11:16 <theymos> And then some botnet would realize how much profit you're making and displace you.
1292 2010-12-24 11:11:22 <lolcat^> it is christmas today
1293 2010-12-24 11:11:25 <lfm> and btw your university super is probably not powerfull enough
1294 2010-12-24 11:12:50 <lolcat^> You only need like a million dollars to buy all the bitcoins
1295 2010-12-24 11:13:00 <ArtForz> unlikely
1296 2010-12-24 11:13:10 <theymos> lolcat^: I will never sell all of mine. I'll keep at least 1 BTC forever.
1297 2010-12-24 11:13:31 <ArtForz> yup, good luck buying my 40kBTC stockpile
1298 2010-12-24 11:14:50 <lolcat^> If you don't spend the bitcoins they arent doing anyting for the bitcoin economy. And isnt there a problem we dont have loans?
1299 2010-12-24 11:15:01 <ArtForz> so?
1300 2010-12-24 11:16:07 <lfm> theymos: & ArtForz are those indentical transactions yours Art? like the one at http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000743f190a18c5577a3c2d2a1f610ae9601ac046a38084ccb7cd721
1301 2010-12-24 11:16:29 <ArtForz> nope, not mine
1302 2010-12-24 11:16:52 <lolcat^> If I transfer my bitcoin twice, I get more xD
1303 2010-12-24 11:17:01 <theymos> I posted a topic about it on the forum a while ago, and no one said that they created them.
1304 2010-12-24 11:18:01 <lfm> lolcat^: I think we got that one covered too
1305 2010-12-24 11:18:26 <lolcat^> How many people will verificate it
1306 2010-12-24 11:18:42 <lolcat^> before they notice it is double spent
1307 2010-12-24 11:20:01 <lfm> lolcat^: like I said, we got it covered. Satoshi figured that problem out before the first bitcoin was created
1308 2010-12-24 11:20:33 <Diablo-D3> heh
1309 2010-12-24 11:20:47 <lolcat^> Hmm
1310 2010-12-24 11:21:06 <lolcat^> What would it take for me to make my own bitcoin-currency
1311 2010-12-24 11:21:13 <xelister> ArtForz: I will take your sister, for that 40 kBTC.
1312 2010-12-24 11:21:18 <xelister> ArtForz: I will take your sister for wife, for that 40 kBTC.
1313 2010-12-24 11:21:23 <xelister> ... erm, no, wait... this isn't the middle ages <_<
1314 2010-12-24 11:21:31 <Diablo-D3> this isnt India either
1315 2010-12-24 11:21:52 <xelister> ha, that would be funny if people in India would use BTC in this way too
1316 2010-12-24 11:22:05 <lfm> xelister: what? Are you kidnapping his sister?
1317 2010-12-24 11:22:17 * xelister hangs lfm reading glasses
1318 2010-12-24 11:22:21 <xelister> *hands
1319 2010-12-24 11:22:23 larsig has joined
1320 2010-12-24 11:22:25 <Diablo-D3> BTC is _not_ to be used for dowry, kthx
1321 2010-12-24 11:22:49 Toadyonps3 is now known as ApetureScience
1322 2010-12-24 11:23:00 <lolcat^> BTC is unregulated...
1323 2010-12-24 11:23:12 <lolcat^> We can buy sell whatever we please with it
1324 2010-12-24 11:23:12 <Diablo-D3> making a note here, 'great success.'
1325 2010-12-24 11:23:35 <lfm> yes, thankfully Diablo-D3 is not the controlling authority for bitcoin
1326 2010-12-24 11:23:41 <xelister> he is not??
1327 2010-12-24 11:23:49 <Diablo-D3> if I was the controlling authority for bitcoin, I'd ban xelister.
1328 2010-12-24 11:24:02 <Diablo-D3> and make art give me half his coins
1329 2010-12-24 11:24:13 <xelister> I would just pay 5 BTC per hor to Diablo-D3's sister. Sorry for increasing the price guys
1330 2010-12-24 11:24:15 <lfm> and his sister?
1331 2010-12-24 11:24:17 <xelister> *hour
1332 2010-12-24 11:24:20 <Keefe> i'm trying to understand the details of the keypair used in bitcoin. it's ECDSA, right? how many bits?
1333 2010-12-24 11:24:27 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: over 9000
1334 2010-12-24 11:24:28 <xelister> lfm: fortunatelly I forseen this situation, and I don't have a sister
1335 2010-12-24 11:24:28 <ApetureScience> huge success
1336 2010-12-24 11:24:39 <Diablo-D3> ApetureScience: er, right
1337 2010-12-24 11:24:44 <ApetureScience> lol
1338 2010-12-24 11:24:48 <Diablo-D3> its been too long since I played portal
1339 2010-12-24 11:24:50 <ArtForz> 256
1340 2010-12-24 11:24:54 <lfm> xelister: astute planning there
1341 2010-12-24 11:25:17 <Diablo-D3> anyhow
1342 2010-12-24 11:25:19 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
1343 2010-12-24 11:25:20 <Diablo-D3> find me
1344 2010-12-24 11:25:21 <Diablo-D3> a
1345 2010-12-24 11:25:23 <ApetureScience> maybe Black Mesa, that was a joke ha ha fat chance
1346 2010-12-24 11:25:31 <xelister> buttplug?
1347 2010-12-24 11:25:39 <Diablo-D3> cryptographically secure 64 bit hash.
1348 2010-12-24 11:25:42 <lfm> heartplug?
1349 2010-12-24 11:25:43 <ArtForz> EC DLP is roughly O(sqrt(n)), so ~128 bits symmetric equivalent security
1350 2010-12-24 11:25:49 <Diablo-D3> or at least one that performs well
1351 2010-12-24 11:26:22 Zarutian has joined
1352 2010-12-24 11:26:56 <lolcat^> Last stupid question from me today: What if someone cracks bitcoin?
1353 2010-12-24 11:27:15 <ArtForz> huh?
1354 2010-12-24 11:27:19 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: then thats the end of the world.
1355 2010-12-24 11:27:23 <necrodearia> Does bitcoin client handle https yet?
1356 2010-12-24 11:27:26 <lfm> lolcat^: then it will be cracked
1357 2010-12-24 11:27:26 <wumpus> cracked in what way?
1358 2010-12-24 11:27:27 <necrodearia> for api
1359 2010-12-24 11:27:28 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: do you realize how much shit uses sha256?
1360 2010-12-24 11:27:32 <ArtForz> if someone breaks ECDSA or sha256, we have bigger problems
1361 2010-12-24 11:27:37 <Diablo-D3> yeah what art said
1362 2010-12-24 11:27:38 <ApetureScience> lol @ end of the world
1363 2010-12-24 11:27:42 <xelister> Diablo-D3: like, uh, first 64 bits of sha128 or something?
1364 2010-12-24 11:27:51 <ApetureScience> i thought that was in 2012
1365 2010-12-24 11:27:56 <Diablo-D3> xelister: there isnt a sha128.
1366 2010-12-24 11:28:09 <Keefe> ArtForz: it seems like the keys stored in my wallet have a 520 bit pubkey and 2232 bit privkey. is only 256 bits of each the actual ECDSA pair?
1367 2010-12-24 11:28:18 <Diablo-D3> xelister: sha2 comes in four flavors, 256 through 512, and sha1 is 160.
1368 2010-12-24 11:28:23 <theymos> necrodearia: The Linux version does.
1369 2010-12-24 11:28:25 <xelister> ure there is, you take first half of sha-256
1370 2010-12-24 11:28:28 <lfm> apertmaybe youre thinking of sha1
1371 2010-12-24 11:28:31 <midnightmagic_> http://eprint.iacr.org/2010/575
1372 2010-12-24 11:28:32 <ArtForz> the secret is 256 bits
1373 2010-12-24 11:28:38 <necrodearia> theymos, Nice. I'll have to upgrade maybe.
1374 2010-12-24 11:28:42 <Diablo-D3> xelister: yeah, but thats ugly.
1375 2010-12-24 11:28:44 <xelister> actually, take any function you like and take first X bits why not
1376 2010-12-24 11:28:53 <ApetureScience> ok like if you go in a bus will they accept bit coin lmfao
1377 2010-12-24 11:28:59 <ArtForz> wallet also stores secret*G = pubkey and the curve params (we always use the same curve)
1378 2010-12-24 11:29:01 <ApetureScience> on*
1379 2010-12-24 11:30:10 <ArtForz> and btw, a cryptographically secure 64 bit hash is kinda impossible
1380 2010-12-24 11:30:17 <wumpus> xelister: some also use xor to reduce the hash size to 128 bit
1381 2010-12-24 11:30:20 <lfm> ApetureScience: ya, and the bus sit at your stop for an hour till the transaction is verified
1382 2010-12-24 11:30:29 <ApetureScience> lol
1383 2010-12-24 11:30:32 <wumpus> for 'md5 backward compatibilty' in ancient data structures/protocols (puke)
1384 2010-12-24 11:30:39 <ArtForz> you only need ~ 2**32 time and space for a birthday collision
1385 2010-12-24 11:30:58 <Keefe> i'm working on an idea of printing a QR code of the secret part of the key, and later re-importing the keypair into a wallet.dat
1386 2010-12-24 11:31:01 <wumpus> yep
1387 2010-12-24 11:32:09 <Keefe> but if i only saved the 256-bit secret, and bitcoin later began using different curve params, it would be a problem
1388 2010-12-24 11:32:12 <wumpus> the only thing 64 bits hashes are useful for is for hash tables and generating semi-unique identifiers for resources, not for security in any way
1389 2010-12-24 11:32:24 <ArtForz> we always use secp256k1 curve
1390 2010-12-24 11:32:27 <xelister> good idea wumpus
1391 2010-12-24 11:33:02 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: xor you say?
1392 2010-12-24 11:33:08 <Diablo-D3> and yes, I need a unique identifier
1393 2010-12-24 11:33:13 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt have to be secure
1394 2010-12-24 11:33:22 <lfm> wumpus: I think 64 bit hash would be too big for a hash table
1395 2010-12-24 11:33:40 <theymos> <Diablo-D3> cryptographically secure 64 bit hash.
1396 2010-12-24 11:33:46 <Keefe> i know very little about the techinical details of crypto. can the pub key be recreated from the priv key? or do i need to save the pub key also?
1397 2010-12-24 11:33:54 <Diablo-D3> not if you have over 2**32 items, lfm
1398 2010-12-24 11:33:59 <ArtForz> pub key is simply priv key * G
1399 2010-12-24 11:34:05 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yes, and arguably 64 cant be secure by definition
1400 2010-12-24 11:34:06 <Keefe> s/techinical/technical/
1401 2010-12-24 11:34:06 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: yes, simply xor the two halves together until you have your desired hash length
1402 2010-12-24 11:34:15 <ArtForz> G is the generator point, part of the curve params
1403 2010-12-24 11:34:33 <Keefe> ah, thanks, that will get me started
1404 2010-12-24 11:34:33 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: it's much more secure than using MD5, but still, 128 bit hashes are too short these days for real security
1405 2010-12-24 11:34:50 <wumpus> lfm: depends on how large your dataset is
1406 2010-12-24 11:35:06 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: I just need a unique identifier
1407 2010-12-24 11:35:10 <wumpus> lfm: don't forget we're living in the age of multi-terabyte databases :)
1408 2010-12-24 11:35:18 <lfm> 2^64 table entries needs a pretty large store
1409 2010-12-24 11:35:30 <wumpus> yeah you certainly wouldn't want to do it that way
1410 2010-12-24 11:35:32 <midnightmagic_> i have a multi-terabyte database just as a personal hobby.
1411 2010-12-24 11:35:43 <Diablo-D3> lfm: if its in the same table, that'd be a 8tb table give or take
1412 2010-12-24 11:35:48 <Diablo-D3> (or more if its really wide)
1413 2010-12-24 11:35:51 <wumpus> you'd % it to smaller sizes in some heirarchy
1414 2010-12-24 11:35:51 <midnightmagic_> ~13TB at the moment.
1415 2010-12-24 11:36:09 <ArtForz> well, depends, if you want to reduce collision chances a 64 bit hash makes sense
1416 2010-12-24 11:36:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes
1417 2010-12-24 11:36:18 <wumpus> or whatever, I know 64 bit hashes are used a lot for databse work, I don't know the specifics
1418 2010-12-24 11:36:28 <Diablo-D3> Im wondering if I should use a hash at all
1419 2010-12-24 11:36:31 <lfm> wampuif you are reducing it then you might as well use a smaller faster hash
1420 2010-12-24 11:36:40 <ArtForz> yep
1421 2010-12-24 11:36:57 <Diablo-D3> I could, say, use a guaranteed cluster unique name, unix time, nanotime since system start, plus thread id
1422 2010-12-24 11:37:03 <Diablo-D3> and mash that up
1423 2010-12-24 11:37:11 <wumpus> lfm: not really if the prime use case is storing a more secure hash in a small field
1424 2010-12-24 11:37:58 <Diablo-D3> and do a half assed uuid
1425 2010-12-24 11:38:11 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: twitter has recently open sourced some generation scheme for distributed identifiers, might also be interesting to look at
1426 2010-12-24 11:38:24 <ArtForz> 64 bits isnt enough to be secure. so all it needs to be is decently collision-resistant
1427 2010-12-24 11:38:34 <wumpus> yes UUIDs are great if you can spare 128 bit
1428 2010-12-24 11:39:05 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah
1429 2010-12-24 11:39:12 <wumpus> it's generally my first choice for distributed databases that don't have such crazy amounts of records that size matters
1430 2010-12-24 11:39:12 <Diablo-D3> so whats the most collision resistant 64 bit hash
1431 2010-12-24 11:39:27 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: yeah, but I'm trying my hand at writing one
1432 2010-12-24 11:39:42 <Diablo-D3> and I dont particularly want to waste 16 bytes per row ;)
1433 2010-12-24 11:40:08 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: indeed for big numbers of small rows you probably don't want to use UUID
1434 2010-12-24 11:40:36 <Diablo-D3> a uuid-like method could work actually
1435 2010-12-24 11:40:39 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: but on the other hand it's very convenient to use them as every programming language already has librraries to generate them
1436 2010-12-24 11:40:43 <Diablo-D3> but it seems saner just to use a hash
1437 2010-12-24 11:40:54 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: default uuid setups are shit
1438 2010-12-24 11:41:02 <Diablo-D3> they're too human oriented
1439 2010-12-24 11:41:08 <Diablo-D3> and often dont let you plug your own shit in
1440 2010-12-24 11:41:11 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: this is what I meant: http://engineering.twitter.com/2010/06/announcing-snowflake.html
1441 2010-12-24 11:41:18 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1442 2010-12-24 11:41:38 <Diablo-D3> "We currently use MySQL to store most of our online data."
1443 2010-12-24 11:41:39 <Diablo-D3> FAIL
1444 2010-12-24 11:41:46 <lolcat^> Bigger problems?
1445 2010-12-24 11:42:07 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: for most applications 'plugging your own shit' into the unique id generator is not neccesary, you just need uuid and noone cares what they are :)
1446 2010-12-24 11:42:14 <ArtForz> you could build a 64 bit hash from DES
1447 2010-12-24 11:42:22 <Diablo-D3> "weâre working to replace many of these systems with the Cassandra distributed database or horizontally sharded MySQL (using gizzard)."
1448 2010-12-24 11:42:23 <Diablo-D3> FAIL
1449 2010-12-24 11:42:26 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: not true
1450 2010-12-24 11:42:42 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: like, the system name field should NOT be the actual system name
1451 2010-12-24 11:43:10 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: the distribution backend has guaranteed unique node names
1452 2010-12-24 11:43:33 <lolcat^> Distrobuted = P2P?
1453 2010-12-24 11:43:45 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: in this case, yes
1454 2010-12-24 11:43:47 <wumpus> lolcat^: not in my case, I simply mean a lot of servers that are semi-independent
1455 2010-12-24 11:44:02 <wumpus> lolcat^: in the P2P case there are certainly more constraints
1456 2010-12-24 11:44:08 <lolcat^> Only semi?
1457 2010-12-24 11:44:18 <Diablo-D3> hrrrm
1458 2010-12-24 11:44:22 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: this looks interesting
1459 2010-12-24 11:44:39 <wumpus> lolcat^: well there's still *some* dependency between them, as you want them to have a similar view of you database 'world'
1460 2010-12-24 11:44:57 <necrodearia> Is anyone able to assist with gavinandresen's monitor address modifications? i'm having trouble producing a patch: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1319.new#new
1461 2010-12-24 11:45:00 <lolcat^> I think I want to use cassandra...
1462 2010-12-24 11:45:02 <bitbot> [PATCH] monitoraddress/blocks
1463 2010-12-24 11:45:24 <lolcat^> Oracle == the devil
1464 2010-12-24 11:45:26 <Diablo-D3> btw, I think I've fixed the one remaining race issue bug in my single getwork thread impl
1465 2010-12-24 11:45:42 <Diablo-D3> and I think I overengineered it
1466 2010-12-24 11:45:57 <wumpus> yeah I've looked at cassandra as well, for some applications a fast distributed key/value store is everything you need
1467 2010-12-24 11:46:16 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: yeah, but if I want just a distributed kv store, I'll use infinispan
1468 2010-12-24 11:46:22 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: which is what Im already doing
1469 2010-12-24 11:46:28 <wumpus> infinispan?
1470 2010-12-24 11:46:46 <Diablo-D3> yes, its written in java, and uses jgroups for the transport backend
1471 2010-12-24 11:46:50 <Diablo-D3> <3 jgroups
1472 2010-12-24 11:46:57 <lolcat^> wumpus: I am thinking of using it for wordpress...
1473 2010-12-24 11:46:58 <wumpus> hadn't heard of that one yet
1474 2010-12-24 11:47:08 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: its foss, jboss/redhat hosts it
1475 2010-12-24 11:47:14 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: Java, isn't that also made by some evil corporation?
1476 2010-12-24 11:47:22 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: java is open source.
1477 2010-12-24 11:47:33 <wumpus> but yes there are a lot of "nosql" databases, all have their own specific advantages and drawbacks, it's very hard to choose
1478 2010-12-24 11:47:46 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: yeah, but I'm trying to write a sql db.
1479 2010-12-24 11:47:51 <wumpus> extremely dependent on your exact workload
1480 2010-12-24 11:48:02 <wumpus> which you generally don't know that well in advance
1481 2010-12-24 11:48:06 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: I do believe its possible to write a sql db that is fast, unlimitedly scalable, and not shit.
1482 2010-12-24 11:48:17 <wumpus> heh, good luck with that :)
1483 2010-12-24 11:48:24 <Diablo-D3> it may end up being as featureful as sqlite... but at least it'll be sql.
1484 2010-12-24 11:48:38 * Diablo-D3 hates nosql efforts
1485 2010-12-24 11:48:48 <Diablo-D3> 99.9% of them were started by idiots who hate mysql
1486 2010-12-24 11:48:52 <wumpus> I won't spend time writing another database, it's very nice of people to have already written them
1487 2010-12-24 11:49:03 <Diablo-D3> instead of just siwtching to postgresql like normal people, they eschew sql altogether
1488 2010-12-24 11:49:08 <wumpus> ehhh
1489 2010-12-24 11:49:21 <wumpus> 'hating sql', right :)
1490 2010-12-24 11:49:45 <Diablo-D3> what I mean is, they never tried an actual working sql impl
1491 2010-12-24 11:50:00 <Diablo-D3> they tried mysql and thought mysql was representative of sql
1492 2010-12-24 11:50:01 <wumpus> do some research, most companies using nosql do that because the available sql databases are not scalable enough to their workloads, or require too much server resources
1493 2010-12-24 11:50:15 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: which isnt really true
1494 2010-12-24 11:50:25 <Diablo-D3> I hate oracle db to no end, but its not really that bad
1495 2010-12-24 11:50:34 <wumpus> I'm sure there is a 'I hate sql' movement but it's really small and probably consists of afew nerds that have nothing else to do :)
1496 2010-12-24 11:50:43 <lolcat^> I hate oracle.
1497 2010-12-24 11:51:00 <Diablo-D3> the problem is, no one has written a sql impl that is on the scale of these nosql systems
1498 2010-12-24 11:51:10 <wumpus> hating stuff won't get you anywhere, you have to look what is best for yor application, and that's certainly not always a sql database
1499 2010-12-24 11:51:18 <Diablo-D3> no single point of failure style unlimited scaling and zero admin overhead dbs are a new concept
1500 2010-12-24 11:51:32 <Diablo-D3> all the best sql impls are a decade+ old.
1501 2010-12-24 11:51:40 <wumpus> sql is simply one of the possible data query languages
1502 2010-12-24 11:51:41 <Diablo-D3> its not that sql cant do it, its just no one has tried it.
1503 2010-12-24 11:51:43 <wumpus> it's not a panacea
1504 2010-12-24 11:51:49 <Diablo-D3> and Im not saying sql is perfect for everything
1505 2010-12-24 11:51:54 <Diablo-D3> there are times you just need a kv store
1506 2010-12-24 11:52:09 <lolcat^> I use MySql but I don't like it...
1507 2010-12-24 11:52:32 <Diablo-D3> there are times when you really DO need an uneven document store (although I suspect you wrote your app wrong at that point)
1508 2010-12-24 11:52:50 <Diablo-D3> but like, you have morons writing shit in haskell or python
1509 2010-12-24 11:52:51 <wumpus> sql, for most things, simply has too much expressive power, which make implementations really complex and create a lot of corner cases
1510 2010-12-24 11:52:54 <Diablo-D3> which is completely wrong
1511 2010-12-24 11:53:12 <lolcat^> Why not store everything in .txt
1512 2010-12-24 11:53:39 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: because if I was going to do that, I'd just use bdb
1513 2010-12-24 11:53:50 <wumpus> huh, why would writing things in python or hashell be 'wrong'?
1514 2010-12-24 11:54:04 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: very slow
1515 2010-12-24 11:54:21 <Diablo-D3> the fastest python and haskell vms are slower than jvm
1516 2010-12-24 11:54:24 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: bdb?
1517 2010-12-24 11:54:26 <wumpus> developer time is usually much more important than running time, especially for i/o bound applications
1518 2010-12-24 11:54:31 <Diablo-D3> and if you use stuff like jvm, here goes half your python
1519 2010-12-24 11:54:37 <Diablo-D3> (no C libs, etc)
1520 2010-12-24 11:54:54 <wumpus> the database backends are usually written in C, though
1521 2010-12-24 11:55:11 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: except people are writing the databases themselves in those languages
1522 2010-12-24 11:55:46 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: for rapid prototyping I guesS?
1523 2010-12-24 11:55:51 <Diablo-D3> couchdb is written in erlang, for example
1524 2010-12-24 11:55:59 <wumpus> erlang is very fast
1525 2010-12-24 11:56:08 <Diablo-D3> not really
1526 2010-12-24 11:56:17 <lolcat^> ertain types of queries that a traditional RDMS like MySQL provides will not be possible with Cassandra; thus, prevent the migration over to Cassandra all together.
1527 2010-12-24 11:56:17 <Diablo-D3> although its faster than non-jvm python and ruby
1528 2010-12-24 11:56:42 <wumpus> erlang is very tuned to network-specific workloads, though, as it was invented for the telecom industry
1529 2010-12-24 11:56:48 <wumpus> it's not your number crunching language
1530 2010-12-24 11:57:02 <Diablo-D3> mysql doesnt really support truly abusive sql queries, lolcat^
1531 2010-12-24 11:57:13 <Diablo-D3> if you want that, you use oracle or pg
1532 2010-12-24 11:57:32 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: you know what I think the really big problem is?
1533 2010-12-24 11:57:40 <wumpus> oracle is expensive and very very heavy-weight
1534 2010-12-24 11:57:44 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: everyone tries to shove mapreduce and bloom filters into their shit because they're buzzwords
1535 2010-12-24 11:57:58 <Diablo-D3> not because they're particularly good ideas.
1536 2010-12-24 11:57:59 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: hehe, that's true
1537 2010-12-24 11:58:00 <lfm> we all need to support the SPCDBs
1538 2010-12-24 11:58:09 <wumpus> there are a lot of buzzword following people
1539 2010-12-24 11:58:16 <Diablo-D3> and I wish they'd quit calling them bloom _filters_
1540 2010-12-24 11:58:21 <wumpus> that doesn't mean though, that the underlying concept don't make sense
1541 2010-12-24 11:58:24 <Diablo-D3> they're fucking well distributed hashes.
1542 2010-12-24 11:58:34 <ArtForz> not quite
1543 2010-12-24 11:58:34 <wumpus> I've also written bloom filters :) but those were for computer graphics
1544 2010-12-24 11:58:45 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: wrong kind of bloom ;)
1545 2010-12-24 11:58:48 <wumpus> hehe
1546 2010-12-24 11:58:51 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: All my queries usually fail before I find the good equilent of phpmyadmin and makes it do it...
1547 2010-12-24 11:59:04 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: you should not be allowed near SQL.
1548 2010-12-24 11:59:21 <wumpus> sql also was a buzzword at some point
1549 2010-12-24 11:59:33 <wumpus> which is why it got so much market domination
1550 2010-12-24 11:59:41 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: in a way
1551 2010-12-24 11:59:46 <Diablo-D3> computers used to be a buzzword
1552 2010-12-24 11:59:49 <Diablo-D3> that wore off quickly
1553 2010-12-24 11:59:52 <wumpus> exactly
1554 2010-12-24 11:59:56 <wumpus> that's how the technology industry works
1555 2010-12-24 12:00:13 <ArtForz> if you have a large KV map, bloom filters speed up simple key-in-store checks a lot
1556 2010-12-24 12:00:30 <wumpus> you need Nice Buzzwords to get the powerpoint devils to invest in you
1557 2010-12-24 12:00:36 <lfm> seems a standard query language is a good idea anyway. we dont really need a new query language for every app
1558 2010-12-24 12:00:52 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes, but so does just broadcasting the request
1559 2010-12-24 12:01:06 <Diablo-D3> lfm: I agree
1560 2010-12-24 12:01:06 <lolcat^> I remember in school it was a lot of buzz around powerpoint
1561 2010-12-24 12:01:24 <amiga4000> powerpoint-bingo!
1562 2010-12-24 12:01:34 <wumpus> lfm: I think the whole idea of a query language should go.. generating queries as text and them submitting them to a server is so 90's
1563 2010-12-24 12:01:37 <lfm> lolcat^: what grade did you get in that course?
1564 2010-12-24 12:01:40 <wumpus> amiga4000: woohoo
1565 2010-12-24 12:02:07 <Diablo-D3> although once you start doing stuff like JPQL
1566 2010-12-24 12:02:37 <Diablo-D3> (jpql == sql for native java objects, really; used as part of an orm)
1567 2010-12-24 12:02:45 <Diablo-D3> it may not matter
1568 2010-12-24 12:02:51 <wumpus> yes, ORMs are nice
1569 2010-12-24 12:02:51 <lolcat^> lfm: It was years ago, high school or whatever. All the classes used PowerPoint. Although I have had 1 year wiht a class in C# or VB (could never remember what to compile as, if I choose the wrong one I got far more errors than usually when compiling).
1570 2010-12-24 12:02:57 <wumpus> and they show the problem with SQL :)
1571 2010-12-24 12:03:06 <lolcat^> I got an OK grade in it actually
1572 2010-12-24 12:03:12 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: well
1573 2010-12-24 12:03:16 <Diablo-D3> if you use JPA
1574 2010-12-24 12:03:19 <Diablo-D3> you really are using SQL
1575 2010-12-24 12:03:20 <wumpus> they are like nice 2010 sauce over a 90's concept :)
1576 2010-12-24 12:03:46 <Diablo-D3> a well written JDBC driver for a SQL db generally just translates object types into the appropriate tables.
1577 2010-12-24 12:03:48 <wumpus> even better, you can rewrite your ORM to use a nosql database
1578 2010-12-24 12:03:51 <Diablo-D3> well, through JPA anyways
1579 2010-12-24 12:03:55 <wumpus> without changing your app at all!
1580 2010-12-24 12:04:04 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: well thats the thing
1581 2010-12-24 12:04:09 <wumpus> so, parting will SQL is not that bad
1582 2010-12-24 12:04:22 <Diablo-D3> JPA->JDBC, connected to a nosql db, you're still using SQL
1583 2010-12-24 12:04:30 <wumpus> I think there are nosql bindings for SQLAlchemy, for example
1584 2010-12-24 12:04:36 <wumpus> :P
1585 2010-12-24 12:04:49 <Diablo-D3> JPQL is written like SQL
1586 2010-12-24 12:04:51 <Diablo-D3> its identical
1587 2010-12-24 12:05:12 <Diablo-D3> it just can do a lot of the boiler plate code for you
1588 2010-12-24 12:05:16 <wumpus> which is funny as projects still use 'SQL' as a buzzword even though it might not be used at all anymore for client<->server comms
1589 2010-12-24 12:05:43 <wumpus> yes that's nice
1590 2010-12-24 12:05:51 <wumpus> every second writing boilerplate code is wasted
1591 2010-12-24 12:07:23 <wumpus> but that one of my reasons for not liking java, it simply has too much boilerplate code, even though you can have your IDE generate most
1592 2010-12-24 12:07:57 <Diablo-D3> not really
1593 2010-12-24 12:08:01 <Diablo-D3> remember, JEE is not part of Java
1594 2010-12-24 12:08:17 <Diablo-D3> and servlet 3.0/ejb 3.0 got rid of the interface and xml masturbation
1595 2010-12-24 12:08:21 <wumpus> true :)
1596 2010-12-24 12:08:29 <wumpus> they're improving
1597 2010-12-24 12:09:04 <lolcat^> JAVA, flash, sql, C#, VB, and M$ is things I could do without
1598 2010-12-24 12:09:26 <Diablo-D3> java is not in capitals you moron
1599 2010-12-24 12:10:16 <Diablo-D3> Solution
1600 2010-12-24 12:10:16 <Diablo-D3> Thrift Server written in Scala
1601 2010-12-24 12:10:16 <Diablo-D3> id is composed of:
1602 2010-12-24 12:10:16 <Diablo-D3> time - 41 bits (millisecond precision w/ a custom epoch gives us 69 years)
1603 2010-12-24 12:10:16 <Diablo-D3> configured machine id - 10 bits - gives us up to 1024 machines
1604 2010-12-24 12:10:17 <Diablo-D3> sequence number - 12 bits - rolls over every 4096 per machine (with protection to avoid rollover in the same ms)
1605 2010-12-24 12:10:21 <Diablo-D3> are you fucking kidding me?
1606 2010-12-24 12:10:48 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: It made from a capitalistic company!
1607 2010-12-24 12:11:08 <wumpus> I still prefer JAVA to C#, even though it's by a small margin
1608 2010-12-24 12:11:16 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: so? they open sourced it!
1609 2010-12-24 12:11:20 <wumpus> I love eclipse
1610 2010-12-24 12:11:22 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: c# is java--
1611 2010-12-24 12:11:45 <Diablo-D3> its slower, its patent encumbered, mono is a fucking failure, and microsoft is now killing silverlie
1612 2010-12-24 12:12:17 <wumpus> indeed, mono is worse than the jvm, I don't like the memory handling, it leaks (even though they're working on it)
1613 2010-12-24 12:12:37 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: Would you use Windows if it was open-source?
1614 2010-12-24 12:12:45 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: depends on the license
1615 2010-12-24 12:12:45 <wumpus> then again, mono have been working on a better gc for a long time and it hasn't improved that much
1616 2010-12-24 12:12:54 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: OpenBSD license
1617 2010-12-24 12:12:58 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: also, many parts of windows microsoft doesnt own the IP for
1618 2010-12-24 12:13:00 <wumpus> personally I'd give that priority #1
1619 2010-12-24 12:13:04 <Diablo-D3> BSD license? never.
1620 2010-12-24 12:13:15 <wumpus> I wouldn't use windows when it was open source
1621 2010-12-24 12:13:19 <Diablo-D3> GPLv3, ASL 2.0, or CDDL? sure.
1622 2010-12-24 12:13:33 <Diablo-D3> all three have strong patent language.
1623 2010-12-24 12:13:50 <lolcat^> Is the BSD license the openest one there is?
1624 2010-12-24 12:14:05 <Diablo-D3> a 2 clause one is
1625 2010-12-24 12:14:07 <lfm> Diablo-D3: safe bet then cuz it would never happen
1626 2010-12-24 12:14:10 <wumpus> yes, BSD/MIT is the closest to public domain that you'll get
1627 2010-12-24 12:14:28 <Diablo-D3> ASL 2.0 is effectively 2 clause + patent lang
1628 2010-12-24 12:15:26 <Diablo-D3> or was it 3 clause, I forget
1629 2010-12-24 12:15:58 <Diablo-D3> (L)GPLv3 and ASL 2.0 are perfectly acceptable licenses for new projects, imo
1630 2010-12-24 12:16:11 <lolcat^> But BSD/MIT isnt?
1631 2010-12-24 12:16:21 <Diablo-D3> for new ones? depends on what you want
1632 2010-12-24 12:16:36 <Diablo-D3> if you want companies to ship closed source versions of your software, go ahead
1633 2010-12-24 12:16:56 <Diablo-D3> theres a lot of software I use on a regular basis that is BSD/MIT/Sleepycat/etc
1634 2010-12-24 12:16:57 <lfm> lolcat^: youd only use bds if you were sponsored by a company that wanted to take it closed as soon as they can
1635 2010-12-24 12:17:06 <lfm> bsd
1636 2010-12-24 12:17:10 <lolcat^> Let whomever do whatever they wish with the source for whatever reason whatsoever.
1637 2010-12-24 12:17:25 <Diablo-D3> pg is mit, for example
1638 2010-12-24 12:17:34 remmy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1639 2010-12-24 12:17:58 <wumpus> well indeed what license you choose is dependent on your ideology and 'business plan'
1640 2010-12-24 12:18:16 <lolcat^> I think most should be public domain
1641 2010-12-24 12:18:21 <wumpus> lgpl is nice in a way because people have to contribute back their changes
1642 2010-12-24 12:18:42 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: public domain isnt valid in many parts of the world
1643 2010-12-24 12:18:55 <Diablo-D3> the lowest you can get is 2 clause BSD
1644 2010-12-24 12:19:22 <lolcat^> So my explanation above wont work?
1645 2010-12-24 12:19:23 <wumpus> public domain is a US thing indeed
1646 2010-12-24 12:19:37 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: you cant give away copyright in some jurisdictions
1647 2010-12-24 12:19:48 <Diablo-D3> public domain is the obliteration of copyright for the specified work
1648 2010-12-24 12:19:48 <lfm> ya I think US outlawed public domain 20 years ago. Everything is copyright since
1649 2010-12-24 12:19:57 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1650 2010-12-24 12:20:04 <wumpus> it was 'invented' for work that public institutions (such as universities) do
1651 2010-12-24 12:20:06 <Diablo-D3> lfm: I can place things in the public domain in the US, however
1652 2010-12-24 12:20:21 <Diablo-D3> and things that are government originated is public domain automatically
1653 2010-12-24 12:21:03 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, if you really dont want to retain any useful rights, just 2 clause BSD it
1654 2010-12-24 12:21:26 <Diablo-D3> I dont particularly like 2 clause though
1655 2010-12-24 12:21:37 <Diablo-D3> most variants of that omit the promotional use wording
1656 2010-12-24 12:22:01 <wumpus> it seems a lot of people use BSD license for 'shit projects' they don't care that much about(of course, that doesn't include BSD itself)
1657 2010-12-24 12:22:12 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: btw, as a side note, openbsd uses isc, not bsd for the license
1658 2010-12-24 12:22:19 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: not true
1659 2010-12-24 12:22:19 <chuck251> hey all, random hardware question: which RAM do you think would be better for generating coins, 1066 at CL7 or 1333 at CL9? they are both ddr3/4gb to run on an amd 640. same price.. not sure! I would think the difference would be unnoticable in most apps, but with SHA256... maybe there is a clear choice?
1660 2010-12-24 12:22:39 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: openbsd uses a isc license (reworded bsd thats equiv to a 2 clause)
1661 2010-12-24 12:22:47 <wumpus> if you want an active, open community around your software it might be better to go with LGPL
1662 2010-12-24 12:22:51 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: free/netbsd uses a 3 clause mit-like bsd
1663 2010-12-24 12:23:20 <Diablo-D3> X uses a 3 clause mit-like in some parts, modified 2 in others
1664 2010-12-24 12:23:23 <wumpus> chuck251: ram isn't important for generating coins, you need integer crunching power
1665 2010-12-24 12:23:32 <Diablo-D3> BSD isnt even a license anymore
1666 2010-12-24 12:23:37 <Diablo-D3> its a set of clauses
1667 2010-12-24 12:23:42 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: indeed, even BSD uses other licenses, that kind of proves my point :)
1668 2010-12-24 12:24:10 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: well, the 2 through 4 clause version of BSD, MIT/X/zlib, ISC, etc are all really the same license
1669 2010-12-24 12:24:19 <wumpus> yep
1670 2010-12-24 12:24:23 <Diablo-D3> they just remove or add specific parts
1671 2010-12-24 12:24:29 <Diablo-D3> and ISC cleaned it up greatly
1672 2010-12-24 12:24:49 <Diablo-D3> and theres ASF
1673 2010-12-24 12:24:55 <wumpus> it's like the creative commons licenses, puzzled together from clauses
1674 2010-12-24 12:25:01 <Diablo-D3> which tried to further refine the BSD family, but 1.0 goofed it up
1675 2010-12-24 12:25:05 <lolcat^> But if you want totaly free software you have to rewrite 50 000 packages to a new license
1676 2010-12-24 12:25:18 <lolcat^> Whitebox or whatever
1677 2010-12-24 12:25:18 <Diablo-D3> 2.0 fixed it, and then introduced a strong patent lang clause to the family
1678 2010-12-24 12:25:25 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: clean room
1679 2010-12-24 12:25:42 <Diablo-D3> and your definition of Free Software is lacking
1680 2010-12-24 12:26:05 <Diablo-D3> Free Software is generally defined as software that is licensed in such a way that the license forces it to remain free
1681 2010-12-24 12:26:42 <wumpus> lolcat^: depends on your definition of 'totally free'.. this is very contested territory
1682 2010-12-24 12:26:56 <Diablo-D3> Free Software removes exactly one freedom: to become non-free.
1683 2010-12-24 12:27:11 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: that's a good definition
1684 2010-12-24 12:27:14 <ArtForz> cue GPL vs BSD flamewar
1685 2010-12-24 12:27:17 <lolcat^> That isn't free...
1686 2010-12-24 12:27:26 <Diablo-D3> what you want is Open Source in general, which is the whole slew of shit under the BSD family of licenses
1687 2010-12-24 12:27:29 <Diablo-D3> which theres _tons_
1688 2010-12-24 12:27:33 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: free countries should have that same law :)
1689 2010-12-24 12:27:34 <lfm> then there is typical free software for windows (as in free beer) which is not even open source
1690 2010-12-24 12:28:00 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: well, it depends how you define free
1691 2010-12-24 12:28:14 <wumpus> free beer is for slobs :)
1692 2010-12-24 12:28:21 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: the US Constitution has a list of inalienable rights... you do not have the right to give them up.
1693 2010-12-24 12:28:27 <lfm> free beer tastes best
1694 2010-12-24 12:28:29 <chuck251> wumpus, are you saying that with generating coins, it's all in the cpu cache and therefore RAM latency/throughput really does not matter?
1695 2010-12-24 12:28:32 <lolcat^> Diablo-D3: It is like a dictatorship. You are free to do whatever you want as long as you do what the dictator wants to...
1696 2010-12-24 12:28:37 <wumpus> chuck251: yes
1697 2010-12-24 12:28:41 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: not at all.
1698 2010-12-24 12:28:44 <wumpus> chuck251: but you should use a GPU
1699 2010-12-24 12:28:50 <ArtForz> nobody serously uses CPUs for generating anways
1700 2010-12-24 12:28:50 <lfm> chuck251: yes
1701 2010-12-24 12:28:50 <wumpus> chuck251: an AMD GPU
1702 2010-12-24 12:28:55 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: copyright law already makes you the dictator.
1703 2010-12-24 12:29:02 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: you can only GIVE people rights, not take them away.
1704 2010-12-24 12:29:15 <lolcat^> So GIVE them all the rigths
1705 2010-12-24 12:29:16 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: GPL only ensures that the rights you gave to the people cannot be taken away by other people
1706 2010-12-24 12:29:26 <Diablo-D3> its a self protecting system.
1707 2010-12-24 12:29:54 <wumpus> chuck251: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
1708 2010-12-24 12:29:55 <Diablo-D3> BSD allows others to take away the rights you gave to other people
1709 2010-12-24 12:30:06 <wumpus> chuck251: CPUs aren't even in the same league
1710 2010-12-24 12:30:07 <lfm> Diablo-D3: well depends how you look at it. gpl takes away right to go proprietary
1711 2010-12-24 12:30:10 <lolcat^> If I license it with MIT/BSD license, can you then copyrigth my software?
1712 2010-12-24 12:30:16 <wumpus> lolcat^: no
1713 2010-12-24 12:30:20 <Diablo-D3> lfm: except thats not particularly a useful right.
1714 2010-12-24 12:30:21 <wumpus> you're not giving away copyright
1715 2010-12-24 12:30:27 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: no, you yourself own the copyright.
1716 2010-12-24 12:30:55 <wumpus> I don't think you can even give away copyright in a license (in general, you can give it to someone else of course)
1717 2010-12-24 12:30:56 <lolcat^> Even if I proclaim everyone is free to do whatever?
1718 2010-12-24 12:30:57 <chuck251> oh, I will use both GPU+CPU :) just trying to get every last bit out :)
1719 2010-12-24 12:31:07 <Diablo-D3> GPL means person A can give to person B, and person B can't give to person C with less rights than A gave to B
1720 2010-12-24 12:31:23 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: most countries do not allow you to destroy copyright.
1721 2010-12-24 12:31:26 <ArtForz> witha decent GPU loading CPu usually reduces GPU hashrate by more than what the CPU produces
1722 2010-12-24 12:31:33 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: ergo the entire public domain bit above
1723 2010-12-24 12:31:36 <wumpus> lolcat^: because if you give away copyright you can't even make a license for it anymore
1724 2010-12-24 12:31:44 <wumpus> lolcat^: it would be self-destructive
1725 2010-12-24 12:31:45 <Diablo-D3> public domain is not a license
1726 2010-12-24 12:31:49 <Diablo-D3> its the true anti-license.
1727 2010-12-24 12:32:02 <lolcat^> Hmm
1728 2010-12-24 12:32:48 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: and yes, I can re-assign copyright, but I cannot destroy it
1729 2010-12-24 12:32:51 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: btw
1730 2010-12-24 12:33:07 <Diablo-D3> GPL doesnt prevent me from multiply licensing my software
1731 2010-12-24 12:33:31 <Diablo-D3> I can give GPL out for free, and then sell very expensive licenses to those who wish to keep it closed
1732 2010-12-24 12:33:50 <wumpus> yes, dual-licensing is possible
1733 2010-12-24 12:34:00 <wumpus> can be a good idea
1734 2010-12-24 12:34:15 <Diablo-D3> lolcat^: or
1735 2010-12-24 12:34:17 <Diablo-D3> I can LGPL
1736 2010-12-24 12:34:17 <wumpus> although all your contributors have to agree on the double licensing
1737 2010-12-24 12:34:31 <Diablo-D3> which means you can glue it to closed source software, but still make that particular part still open source
1738 2010-12-24 12:34:52 <Diablo-D3> as long as they dont modify it, they have nothing additional required of them
1739 2010-12-24 12:35:09 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: which is why you have copyright assigning
1740 2010-12-24 12:35:13 <wumpus> so dual-licensing works best if you don't have too many contributors and have a pretty central control
1741 2010-12-24 12:37:25 chuck251 has left ()
1742 2010-12-24 12:43:49 TD has joined
1743 2010-12-24 13:03:17 <lolcat^> So complicated
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1756 2010-12-24 13:40:28 <xelister> todays news
1757 2010-12-24 13:40:36 <xelister> if firefox lead by incopetent people?
1758 2010-12-24 13:40:58 <rapacity> what
1759 2010-12-24 13:42:04 <xelister> for over 2 years there is a bug that mouse cursor does not show bussy when over loading page. This is very annoying UI bug making browsing much MUCH worse when often reloading same page (i.e. when doing webdevel). 2 years ago reproted, dozen of guys dicking around the issue, but still it is not fixed. SETTING A GOD DAMNED STUPI MOUSE CURSOR TO BUSSY ARROW. what the hell? O_o
1760 2010-12-24 13:45:52 <wumpus> the problem is that it is very hard to define a page as 'loading' these days, with all the comet, ajax, remote js loading, pages are loading all the time
1761 2010-12-24 13:46:12 <xelister> hey I take this back,
1762 2010-12-24 13:46:14 <xelister> they are just faggots
1763 2010-12-24 13:46:17 Hereisanotherlie has quit (Quit: quitting)
1764 2010-12-24 13:46:27 <xelister> some comments say it was because it is how gay os X does it
1765 2010-12-24 13:46:27 <wumpus> heh
1766 2010-12-24 13:46:30 ebel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1767 2010-12-24 13:46:45 <MT`AwAy> wumpus: the "loading" icon works fine on the tab, why not the mouse too?
1768 2010-12-24 13:46:48 <wumpus> things that sound simple aren't always simple to implement (or -- get right)
1769 2010-12-24 13:47:11 <wumpus> because a false positive loading icon in the toolbar doesn't bother people as much
1770 2010-12-24 13:47:25 <MT`AwAy> wumpus: already saw it do false positive?
1771 2010-12-24 13:47:38 <MT`AwAy> (anyway I don't use the mouse much so this never bothered me at all)
1772 2010-12-24 13:47:44 <wumpus> yes, some pages open a continous stream
1773 2010-12-24 13:47:55 <wumpus> so they never finish loading
1774 2010-12-24 13:48:00 <xelister> wumpus: cut this bullshit ;)
1775 2010-12-24 13:48:07 <xelister> 'things that sound simple aren't always simple to implement '
1776 2010-12-24 13:48:09 <xelister> WAT ????
1777 2010-12-24 13:48:26 <xelister> just switch the mother fucking mouse cursor when you switch the tab icon
1778 2010-12-24 13:48:32 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1779 2010-12-24 13:48:44 <wumpus> not really
1780 2010-12-24 13:48:52 <wumpus> you'd have a fucking hourglass cursor all the time
1781 2010-12-24 13:48:55 <xelister> they implemented milions lines of code worth of digging around with crazy CSS exceptions etc, and they can't setup fregging mouse cursor?
1782 2010-12-24 13:49:10 <wumpus> I don't even want that change, don't touch my mouse cursor :D
1783 2010-12-24 13:49:31 <xelister> they implemented one of biggest OS app and yet they can't to waht every CS grad can do - set mouse cursor shape???????
1784 2010-12-24 13:50:01 <wumpus> setting the mouse cursur shape is trivial
1785 2010-12-24 13:50:09 <wumpus> but determining the conditions is not
1786 2010-12-24 13:50:14 <xelister> - lol() { set_fucking_tab_shit(); }
1787 2010-12-24 13:50:31 <xelister> + lol() { set_fucking_tab_shit(); cursor_is_hour_glass=true; }
1788 2010-12-24 13:50:44 <tcatm> chromium does it so it can't be too hard
1789 2010-12-24 13:50:45 <xelister> @@ each_second() {
1790 2010-12-24 13:50:47 <wumpus> anyway, if it bothers you that much, implement it yourself, you seem to think you know how -- so what keeps you?
1791 2010-12-24 13:51:06 <xelister> + set_fucking_cursor( cursor_is_hour_glass ? NORMAL : HOURGLASS );
1792 2010-12-24 13:52:10 <xelister> 1) dont have time 2) will they put it to mineline? no time to dickaround updating patch 3) rebuilding for myself is bitch too 4) what about other users
1793 2010-12-24 13:52:12 <lfm> xelister: what language is that ht-fucking-ml?
1794 2010-12-24 13:52:24 <xelister> lfm: wat?
1795 2010-12-24 13:52:40 <wumpus> xelister: then stop bitching :)
1796 2010-12-24 13:53:16 <lfm> xelister: are you drunk?
1797 2010-12-24 13:53:20 <xelister> wumpus: well you /could/ reimplement entire ATI drivers yourself actually
1798 2010-12-24 13:53:24 <xelister> yet, bitching on ati is very ok :)
1799 2010-12-24 13:54:41 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1800 2010-12-24 13:55:36 <wumpus> xelister: hehe, I've actually done some development for the open source NVidia drivers (nouveau), the hard part is getting it to work on as many actual cards as possible.. gpus have quite large differences even within the same series (a lot of CYA going on in the drivers).. combined with all the reverse engineering involved it's a huge project
1801 2010-12-24 13:55:38 <lfm> he musta been drunk
1802 2010-12-24 13:57:25 <lfm> why would ati fglrx drivers work for me on ubuntu but not kubuntu?
1803 2010-12-24 13:57:52 Cusipzzz has joined
1804 2010-12-24 13:58:34 <wumpus> dunno, maybe one of them uses some hardware accel that isn't supported well enough?
1805 2010-12-24 13:59:11 <lfm> xorg wont even start, I dont think kde or gnome even get close
1806 2010-12-24 14:01:19 <lfm> oh well gnome doesnt bother me too much, i can use it, just I had been using mostly kde till now
1807 2010-12-24 14:03:23 <wumpus> same xorg version in both cases?
1808 2010-12-24 14:04:24 <lfm> pretty sure it is but who lnows all the patches ubuntu/kubuntu guys might put in
1809 2010-12-24 14:04:58 <wumpus> well as far as I know the only difference between ubuntu and kubuntu is the 'root package' (kubuntu-desktop versus ubuntu-desktop)
1810 2010-12-24 14:05:11 <wumpus> so the underlying xorg should be the same in the same release
1811 2010-12-24 14:05:37 <wumpus> they use the same repositories
1812 2010-12-24 14:06:11 <lfm> i thot so too. it just seemed weird but I cant be motivated to chase it down for ati
1813 2010-12-24 14:08:03 <lfm> its conceivable its even something I did different in the install but I cant think of what
1814 2010-12-24 14:16:57 <wumpus> have you compared the xorg configs?
1815 2010-12-24 14:18:29 <lfm> ya they're pretty bare bones, cant see anything there. also Xorg.0.log doesn't tell me anything usefull
1816 2010-12-24 14:19:56 ApetureScience has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1817 2010-12-24 14:19:57 <lfm> seems like its trying to change the monitor timeing to something wrong and I cant override it
1818 2010-12-24 14:20:56 <ArtForz> use the modeline, luke
1819 2010-12-24 14:21:54 TD has joined
1820 2010-12-24 14:22:25 <lfm> yup I tried some modelines and didnt get anywhere.. anyway I am running it ok on ubuntu now, Just wondered if you (or anyone) ever heard of anything like it
1821 2010-12-24 14:23:13 <ArtForz> well, kinda
1822 2010-12-24 14:24:13 <ArtForz> I had some fun with screens with wrong EDID info + DE helpfully selecting a non-supported resolution/refresh rate combo
1823 2010-12-24 14:25:07 Toadyonps3 has joined
1824 2010-12-24 14:25:34 <lfm> was there some message about it trying to fix some alignment?
1825 2010-12-24 14:25:59 <wumpus> EDID was really a pest when it was first introduced, especially the first monitors supporting it always had the wrong parameters in it
1826 2010-12-24 14:26:05 <ArtForz> yep
1827 2010-12-24 14:26:36 <wumpus> nowadays it seems to work OK, been a long time since I had problems with configuring monitors/resolutions and had to fiddle with modelines
1828 2010-12-24 14:26:45 TD has quit (Client Quit)
1829 2010-12-24 14:26:50 <lfm> these were fairly current lcd monitors, not old crts or anything. I tried two different monitos
1830 2010-12-24 14:27:01 <ArtForz> mostly a problem with a bunch of older 1024x768 and 1280x1024 LCDs
1831 2010-12-24 14:27:18 <wumpus> indeed
1832 2010-12-24 14:27:48 <lfm> thgat could be it then, odd that it seems to go away with ubuntu vs kubuntu
1833 2010-12-24 14:28:19 <ArtForz> for example one of my 17" 1280x1024s claims it can handle 1280x1024 @ 75Hz ... it can't
1834 2010-12-24 14:29:05 <wumpus> with CRTs the problem was usually the opposite around, it could do more than reported by EDID
1835 2010-12-24 14:29:09 <ArtForz> yep
1836 2010-12-24 14:29:52 <Diablo-D3> yup
1837 2010-12-24 14:29:57 <ArtForz> my 22" sonys do that
1838 2010-12-24 14:30:12 <ArtForz> according to EDID they max at 1600x1200 @ 85Hz
1839 2010-12-24 14:30:32 <ArtForz> manual override, 1600x1200 @ 100Hz works just fine
1840 2010-12-24 14:30:44 <sipa> you're overclocking your screen!
1841 2010-12-24 14:30:50 <ArtForz> nope
1842 2010-12-24 14:31:06 <ArtForz> still well inside official specs
1843 2010-12-24 14:31:32 <wumpus> then again, those were the times that the Hz actually mattered, 60Hz wuold kill your eyes :p
1844 2010-12-24 14:31:41 <ArtForz> the EDID simply underreports max hfreq
1845 2010-12-24 14:32:24 <ArtForz> and yeah, CRT @ 60Hz = ouch
1846 2010-12-24 14:32:32 <lfm> i wonder if ati has some alignment needs not common on other types
1847 2010-12-24 14:32:49 <ArtForz> dunno
1848 2010-12-24 14:33:29 <ArtForz> I know plenty of GPUs have a problem with 1440x900
1849 2010-12-24 14:33:40 <lfm> or just some fglrx quirk for some optimization somewhere
1850 2010-12-24 14:40:08 <Diablo-D3> sizes that arent /16 are generally shit
1851 2010-12-24 14:45:49 TD has joined
1852 2010-12-24 14:50:09 TD has quit (Client Quit)
1853 2010-12-24 14:52:35 Toadyonps3 is now known as ApertureScience
1854 2010-12-24 14:53:00 ukd1 has joined
1855 2010-12-24 14:53:26 <ukd1> hi :-)
1856 2010-12-24 15:00:19 <Cusipzzz> hello
1857 2010-12-24 15:01:38 midnightmagic_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1858 2010-12-24 15:11:34 <ukd1> Is there a good way of me selling a physical item for bitcoins at the moment? or do I just post in the forums?
1859 2010-12-24 15:12:00 <sgornick> ukd1: http://biddingpond.com ?
1860 2010-12-24 15:12:15 <ukd1> sgornick, I'll take a look!
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1867 2010-12-24 15:35:29 <ukd1> If someone sends thousands of small transactions, will this ever cause a problem?
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1870 2010-12-24 15:37:28 <ProgVal> Hi
1871 2010-12-24 15:37:33 <ukd1> :-)
1872 2010-12-24 15:37:48 <ProgVal> I have a problem compiling bitcoin on Debian Sid (GNU/Linux)
1873 2010-12-24 15:37:59 <ProgVal> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/309349/
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1875 2010-12-24 15:39:07 <ukd1> ProgVal, I'm not too sure about what is wrong there...I'm running it on Lenny fine - but I didn't compile
1876 2010-12-24 15:39:58 <ProgVal> Is your system a 64 bits too ?
1877 2010-12-24 15:40:02 <ukd1> yes
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1879 2010-12-24 15:40:22 <ukd1> the downloadable version runs fine for me
1880 2010-12-24 15:40:35 <ArtForz> easy
1881 2010-12-24 15:41:27 <ArtForz> add Xxf86vm to WXLIBS in makefile.unix
1882 2010-12-24 15:41:31 <ProgVal> I would like to say x11proto-xf86vidmode-dev package... but it is aready installed
1883 2010-12-24 15:41:42 <ProgVal> ArtForz: ?
1884 2010-12-24 15:42:03 <ArtForz> do clue why
1885 2010-12-24 15:42:18 <ArtForz> but thats what I have to do to get it to build on debian amd64
1886 2010-12-24 15:42:33 <ArtForz> *debian sid amd64
1887 2010-12-24 15:43:19 <ProgVal> ArtForz: thanks, it worked
1888 2010-12-24 15:43:53 <ProgVal> It is written in the Makefile to add it for wx 9.1 ><
1889 2010-12-24 15:43:57 <ProgVal> I should have read it
1890 2010-12-24 15:44:38 <ArtForz> yeah, makefile is hackish
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1931 2010-12-24 19:59:51 <EvanR> how does bitcoin and income tax work
1932 2010-12-24 20:00:36 <newsham> like normal coins and income tax?
1933 2010-12-24 20:02:30 <EvanR> normally the government takes part of my paycheck and i have to lobby to get most of the back
1934 2010-12-24 20:02:56 <EvanR> with bitcoin, they have no idea it even exists
1935 2010-12-24 20:03:29 <newsham> evanr: if your employer pays you in bitcoin he should withhold some and declare it to the irs
1936 2010-12-24 20:03:41 <newsham> but if he doesnt, it is your responsibility to declare it and pay taxes on it.
1937 2010-12-24 20:03:54 <EvanR> :S
1938 2010-12-24 20:03:57 <newsham> if you owe more than some threshhold, you need to periodically file before the year end reconcilliation
1939 2010-12-24 20:04:10 <newsham> ie. monthly, quarterly or semi-annually
1940 2010-12-24 20:04:47 <newsham> if you get paid by contract (ie. 1099), your employer doesnt withhold (but should still report) and it is your responsibility to file and pay
1941 2010-12-24 20:05:14 <newsham> i imagine anyone getting paid in bitcoin is likely doing it under contract
1942 2010-12-24 20:05:37 sec^nd has joined
1943 2010-12-24 20:05:41 <EvanR> what about running a business that accepts bitcoins
1944 2010-12-24 20:06:27 <newsham> i dont know much about that.. i think you'd keep track of income, keep track of expenses, and file the income and write-off the expenses and end up paying tax on the net
1945 2010-12-24 20:06:43 <newsham> just like you owuld if you accepted cash
1946 2010-12-24 20:07:40 <Kiba> the government have no idea until you declare it
1947 2010-12-24 20:07:46 <newsham> i imagine you'd just declare any bitcoin you cashed out into dollars? *shrug* not sure how things work with foreign currency.
1948 2010-12-24 20:07:49 <EvanR> the government would be very confused if i did
1949 2010-12-24 20:07:51 <Kiba> until they have people trained in tracking down your identity
1950 2010-12-24 20:07:59 <EvanR> newsham: that sounds like a good idea
1951 2010-12-24 20:08:08 <Kiba> using block explorerer
1952 2010-12-24 20:08:30 <EvanR> i would like to be anonymous, but i wouldnt like to break any sensible laws
1953 2010-12-24 20:08:51 <Kiba> paying taxes that goes to other people is sensible
1954 2010-12-24 20:08:52 <newsham> whats your business? (so i can track you down later! ;-)
1955 2010-12-24 20:09:00 <EvanR> i dont have one
1956 2010-12-24 20:09:03 <Kiba> I got taxpayer to give me college scholarship
1957 2010-12-24 20:09:11 <Kiba> I know that I don't deserve even a single cent of it
1958 2010-12-24 20:09:28 <Kiba> paying taxes that goes to other people is sensible?
1959 2010-12-24 20:09:48 <EvanR> its sensible if the government would put me in jail if i didnt follow it
1960 2010-12-24 20:10:01 <EvanR> or, if they have a reasonable probability of catching me
1961 2010-12-24 20:10:06 <newsham> kiba: indeed. having a government that builds roads and maintains an educated middle class are immensely important to my future wellbeing
1962 2010-12-24 20:10:20 <Kiba> newsham: nonsense.
1963 2010-12-24 20:10:30 <Kiba> I am a very sophisticated person
1964 2010-12-24 20:10:47 <Kiba> and I don't need a college education to make me a "sophisticated" person
1965 2010-12-24 20:11:12 <newsham> kiba: yah, I didnt mean you. for you we pay for prisons ;-)
1966 2010-12-24 20:11:50 <EvanR> what about sales tax?
1967 2010-12-24 20:11:50 <Kiba> well, I am educated.
1968 2010-12-24 20:12:10 <EvanR> do i need a lawyer to run a business that has almost nothing to do with america
1969 2010-12-24 20:12:18 <Kiba> and I have a sophisticated understanding of economic
1970 2010-12-24 20:12:56 <Kiba> but even if I vote, how many people possess the same kind of understanding as kiba? If they're all as sophisticated as kiba, what do you suppose will happen?
1971 2010-12-24 20:13:23 <EvanR> world peace, as usual
1972 2010-12-24 20:13:24 <newsham> evanr: if you're running it in america, you'll need to pay taxes. you can do that as an individual, but it may be beneficial to start a business entity for liability reasons (ie. i fyou have partners) in which case you'll need a lawyer
1973 2010-12-24 20:13:27 <Kiba> we would all understand democracy as evil and refuse to vote ;P
1974 2010-12-24 20:13:32 <newsham> a lawyer could also be useful for helping with other things
1975 2010-12-24 20:13:39 <EvanR> newsham: you mean if im running it, and *living* in america?
1976 2010-12-24 20:13:43 <EvanR> website
1977 2010-12-24 20:13:50 <newsham> i think in some parts of the country you also need a business license to do some or all kinds of business?
1978 2010-12-24 20:14:01 <EvanR> thats stupid!
1979 2010-12-24 20:14:04 <Kiba> well, I am an autodidact
1980 2010-12-24 20:14:04 <newsham> ie. in hawaii I need a "general excise tax license" because there's a local tax I must pay on income
1981 2010-12-24 20:14:16 <EvanR> do you need a license of run a lemonade stand
1982 2010-12-24 20:14:26 <newsham> but i dont need a "business license"
1983 2010-12-24 20:14:38 <Kiba> I don't need a business license to freelance
1984 2010-12-24 20:14:46 <newsham> evanr: if you collect enough money to owe general excise tax in hawaii, you would need a GET license here, yes.
1985 2010-12-24 20:14:56 <EvanR> whats the difference between freelance and another busines
1986 2010-12-24 20:15:09 <newsham> though most lemonade stands make less than the threshhold :)
1987 2010-12-24 20:15:33 <Kiba> EvanR: programmers don't have to pay a license to be a programmer
1988 2010-12-24 20:15:34 <EvanR> it would be nice to pay taxes without having to explain the details of the business
1989 2010-12-24 20:15:36 <Kiba> we're just programmer...
1990 2010-12-24 20:15:49 <newsham> evanr: the small business association has some great web pages to educate people on how to start a business. it covers way more than you need to know, and is in sections so you can skip stuff you dont care about
1991 2010-12-24 20:16:03 <newsham> kiba: I think in some states you need a license to do any business.
1992 2010-12-24 20:16:06 <newsham> but i could be wrong.
1993 2010-12-24 20:16:30 <Kiba> all for the purpose of forming cartels, that what a license is. To prevent barrier of entry
1994 2010-12-24 20:16:36 <newsham> evanr: I dont think you need to explain the nature of your business other than perhaps a broad category
1995 2010-12-24 20:16:50 <EvanR> newsham: selling weapons?
1996 2010-12-24 20:17:04 <newsham> "retail"? ;-)
1997 2010-12-24 20:17:08 <EvanR> ah
1998 2010-12-24 20:17:37 <newsham> http://www.sba.gov/category/navigation-structure/starting-managing-business
1999 2010-12-24 20:18:41 <newsham> i'm off.. enjoy
2000 2010-12-24 20:18:54 <EvanR> so if im running a business hosted at another country, and dont have any american customers, and im not getting paid in american money
2001 2010-12-24 20:19:04 <EvanR> i have to pay the us government a cut
2002 2010-12-24 20:19:17 <EvanR> does that make sense?
2003 2010-12-24 20:20:53 <arcatan> if you personally get any money out of that business, then at least you have to :P
2004 2010-12-24 20:20:56 <ArtForz> yep
2005 2010-12-24 20:21:08 <EvanR> why, because im american?
2006 2010-12-24 20:21:11 <ArtForz> around here in .de it's the same
2007 2010-12-24 20:22:21 <EvanR> i guess if it takes off i can move to puerto rico, or costa rica or something
2008 2010-12-24 20:22:29 <EvanR> and take all the profits
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2011 2010-12-24 20:50:33 <EvanR> ArtForz: do you pay taxes on all your coins?
2012 2010-12-24 20:54:15 <Kiba> if da government is going to collapse, doesn't that make paying taxes an unnecesary activity
2013 2010-12-24 20:54:16 <Kiba> ?
2014 2010-12-24 20:54:30 <EvanR> as long as it collapses before they catch you?
2015 2010-12-24 20:54:40 <Cusipzzz> only taxes if/when you sell to USD..then you should declare the difference between sale price and cost basis.
2016 2010-12-24 20:55:00 <Kiba> taxes are complicated
2017 2010-12-24 20:55:00 <EvanR> cost includes operating costs?
2018 2010-12-24 20:55:07 <Kiba> no wonder government is going to collapse
2019 2010-12-24 20:55:07 <Cusipzzz> yes.
2020 2010-12-24 20:55:47 <EvanR> i guess heres where you need a company, to separate your costs from the companies
2021 2010-12-24 20:55:51 theymos has joined
2022 2010-12-24 20:57:16 <EvanR> Cusipzzz: and sales tax?
2023 2010-12-24 20:58:24 <Cusipzzz> no sales tax, capital gains tax...like investing in art, etc, you set up an LLC, line up expenses, cost basis of acquiring coins vs sale price.
2024 2010-12-24 20:59:00 <Cusipzzz> just like if you buy art for 1M and sel for 2M...if you had to spend money to find the buyer, advertise, hold an auction, etc, those can help offset the cap gains
2025 2010-12-24 20:59:19 <Kiba> god damn
2026 2010-12-24 20:59:24 <Kiba> why don't they just make it easy
2027 2010-12-24 20:59:28 <Kiba> one damn simple tax code
2028 2010-12-24 20:59:30 <EvanR> yeah
2029 2010-12-24 20:59:31 <Kiba> 1 rule
2030 2010-12-24 20:59:39 <Kiba> like...I don't know..
2031 2010-12-24 20:59:42 <Kiba> 1% of your income
2032 2010-12-24 20:59:44 <EvanR> people make a living on knowing how it all works
2033 2010-12-24 21:00:12 <Cusipzzz> yeah,you want to put all the accountants and tax attorneys and IRD workers out of jobs?
2034 2010-12-24 21:00:18 <EvanR> yes
2035 2010-12-24 21:00:29 <Kiba> they can make the economy more productive by doing other jobs
2036 2010-12-24 21:00:40 <EvanR> they could protect Kiba's river
2037 2010-12-24 21:00:44 <EvanR> with pitchforks
2038 2010-12-24 21:00:51 <Cusipzzz> what jobs? there are no other jobs
2039 2010-12-24 21:01:06 <Kiba> there are alway works
2040 2010-12-24 21:01:14 <Kiba> even if it meant working in a McDonald
2041 2010-12-24 21:01:22 <EvanR> there are people with a lot of money though, why dont they come up with jobs
2042 2010-12-24 21:01:30 <EvanR> and start freakin hiring
2043 2010-12-24 21:01:46 <EvanR> Kiba: i couldnt even get hired at mcdonalds in atlanta
2044 2010-12-24 21:01:51 <Kiba> pitiful.
2045 2010-12-24 21:01:56 <EvanR> or any other similar place
2046 2010-12-24 21:02:27 <EvanR> so fast food is not the employer of last resort that people make it out to be
2047 2010-12-24 21:02:38 <Kiba> the thing is...
2048 2010-12-24 21:02:42 <Kiba> there's alway works to do
2049 2010-12-24 21:02:50 <Kiba> and there are lot of unmet demand
2050 2010-12-24 21:03:08 <EvanR> i dont know about the demand part, but yes you could employ people to dig holes in the ground
2051 2010-12-24 21:03:17 <Kiba> that's not what I meant
2052 2010-12-24 21:04:06 <Kiba> we live in a world of scarcity. That's not going to disappear any time soon.
2053 2010-12-24 21:04:14 <Kiba> and with scarcity, there's work.
2054 2010-12-24 21:04:19 <Kiba> to relieve that scarcity
2055 2010-12-24 21:04:33 <EvanR> untrained work may not help
2056 2010-12-24 21:04:38 <Kiba> however, the unemployment rate is high because of several factors
2057 2010-12-24 21:04:48 <Kiba> caused by government internvention
2058 2010-12-24 21:04:59 <Diablo-D3> okay so
2059 2010-12-24 21:05:01 <Diablo-D3> I think
2060 2010-12-24 21:05:06 <Diablo-D3> with absolute certainty
2061 2010-12-24 21:06:04 <Diablo-D3> Ive finally killed the network thread bug
2062 2010-12-24 21:07:00 <Diablo-D3> I did 500 shares, and got zero rejected dupes
2063 2010-12-24 21:07:03 <Kiba> Well, it's certain
2064 2010-12-24 21:07:12 andrew12 has joined
2065 2010-12-24 21:07:31 <andrew12> eeleeeellelewreqwr hi
2066 2010-12-24 21:07:33 <Kiba> that there's inefficencies everywhere, creating more works than neccesary, but at the same time, there's always works to go around
2067 2010-12-24 21:07:39 <Diablo-D3> and it does a new share roughly every 30 seconds to a minute
2068 2010-12-24 21:08:05 <EvanR> Kiba: whats scarce is useful work
2069 2010-12-24 21:08:09 <Diablo-D3> (or, roughly, 50 every 45 minutes)
2070 2010-12-24 21:08:24 <Kiba> I mean
2071 2010-12-24 21:08:38 <EvanR> the only people who can do anything about that is venture capital which has been very reserved for the last few years
2072 2010-12-24 21:08:40 <Kiba> why do we need professors badly teaching students, when they can be replaced by a good lecture video?
2073 2010-12-24 21:09:09 darrob has quit (Disconnected by services)
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2075 2010-12-24 21:10:14 <Kiba> there are no shortage of work, but there's shortage of competent people
2076 2010-12-24 21:10:41 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: screw that
2077 2010-12-24 21:10:48 <Diablo-D3> we really only need to teach kids how to learn
2078 2010-12-24 21:10:54 <Diablo-D3> and then throw them into a giant pile of books
2079 2010-12-24 21:11:09 <Kiba> autodidictalism
2080 2010-12-24 21:11:22 <Diablo-D3> the modern term is "fucking wikipedia"
2081 2010-12-24 21:11:28 <EvanR> im leaving town for the weekend, wait until im back to solve world econopolitics
2082 2010-12-24 21:11:36 * EvanR leaves
2083 2010-12-24 21:11:51 * Kiba edited wikipedia for a short time
2084 2010-12-24 21:12:03 <Kiba> maybe a year or two
2085 2010-12-24 21:12:35 <Kiba> by then, there was already a bureacracy in place that make casual editing hard
2086 2010-12-24 21:13:03 <Kiba> I can't explain complain though, because wikipedia for the most part, works
2087 2010-12-24 21:13:11 <Diablo-D3> I ignore the beaurocracy
2088 2010-12-24 21:13:16 <Diablo-D3> I edit, if they roll back, I redit.
2089 2010-12-24 21:30:45 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rca50c42 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
2090 2010-12-24 21:30:45 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Forced all accesses to a getwork instance to be synchronous, should fix
2091 2010-12-24 21:30:45 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: final network thread problems - http://bit.ly/eFPTf0
2092 2010-12-24 21:33:01 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2094 2010-12-24 21:39:19 <Diablo-D3> 43 commits thus far
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2108 2010-12-24 22:13:38 <LobsterMan> pur3pwn4ge
2109 2010-12-24 22:13:48 <LobsterMan> ^___^
2110 2010-12-24 22:13:50 <LobsterMan> ^_____________^
2111 2010-12-24 22:13:56 <LobsterMan> happy xmas eve all
2112 2010-12-24 22:15:22 <LobsterMan> i suppose it's already xmas in some parts of the world
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2120 2010-12-24 22:27:58 Guest14743 is now known as skull23
2121 2010-12-24 22:28:18 RichardG has joined
2122 2010-12-24 22:28:48 <skull23> anyone recommend websites that are with bitcoin for researching?
2123 2010-12-24 22:34:00 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2124 2010-12-24 22:47:08 acous has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2125 2010-12-24 22:51:07 <Sherpa> www.BitCoinX.info/btcx
2126 2010-12-24 22:51:14 <Sherpa> www.BitCoinX.info/
2127 2010-12-24 22:53:35 <ApertureScience> well just to inform everyone, Santa is a big fat pedo who gives out free toys every year so little kids will continue to sit on his lap and make him jplly
2128 2010-12-24 22:53:57 <ApertureScience> jolly*
2129 2010-12-24 22:54:01 <Cusipzzz> lol
2130 2010-12-24 22:54:45 <ApertureScience> and is what he realy means to say is hoe hoe hoe i'm a big fat skank
2131 2010-12-24 22:55:53 <Diablo-D3> ....
2132 2010-12-24 22:56:05 <Diablo-D3> if I kill ApertureScience, does that make me a monster?
2133 2010-12-24 22:56:16 <Xunie> If I love ApertureScience, does that make me evil?
2134 2010-12-24 22:56:27 <Xunie> Chaotic Evil*
2135 2010-12-24 22:56:42 <Diablo-D3> *vaguely interesting
2136 2010-12-24 22:56:45 <ApertureScience> why would you kill me;_;
2137 2010-12-24 22:57:15 <Kiba> hmm
2138 2010-12-24 22:57:23 <Xunie> ApertureScience, I'd kill you with soy sauce so you can come back and talk to me through a bratwurst, just like John talked to David in John Dies At The End.
2139 2010-12-24 22:57:26 <Kiba> my family's 14 years old car went to the scrap yard
2140 2010-12-24 22:57:27 <ApertureScience> Xunie you need to say i'm a girl or they might think your queer lol
2141 2010-12-24 22:57:27 <Kiba> hmm
2142 2010-12-24 22:57:39 <Xunie> Kiba, did you sell it for Bitcoins?
2143 2010-12-24 22:57:43 <ApertureScience> lol
2144 2010-12-24 22:57:44 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: thats pretty decent
2145 2010-12-24 22:57:47 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: toyota?
2146 2010-12-24 22:57:50 <Kiba> toyota
2147 2010-12-24 22:57:53 <Diablo-D3> thought so.
2148 2010-12-24 22:57:53 <Kiba> car accident
2149 2010-12-24 22:57:55 <Kiba> this morning
2150 2010-12-24 22:57:58 <Kiba> err
2151 2010-12-24 22:57:59 <Kiba> Honda
2152 2010-12-24 22:58:08 <Diablo-D3> hrm, that was my second guess
2153 2010-12-24 22:58:48 <Diablo-D3> for resale value of cards, its like toyota, honda, a gigantic blank chasm, nissan, and then the big three
2154 2010-12-24 22:58:53 <Diablo-D3> *cars
2155 2010-12-24 22:59:20 <Diablo-D3> and if the big three actually made cars in the US and not in mexico, they wouldnt have this problem
2156 2010-12-24 23:00:21 <Kiba> blank chasm?
2157 2010-12-24 23:01:09 <Kiba> where is my autonomous car, google?
2158 2010-12-24 23:01:11 <Diablo-D3> toyota and honda really have everyone beat
2159 2010-12-24 23:01:18 <Diablo-D3> I'd include tesla, btw
2160 2010-12-24 23:01:19 <Diablo-D3> but uh
2161 2010-12-24 23:01:24 <Diablo-D3> no one has actually resold one yet
2162 2010-12-24 23:01:56 <Diablo-D3> and Im being unfair, nissan is closer to honda than the big three
2163 2010-12-24 23:09:24 BJ_ has joined
2164 2010-12-24 23:09:28 daveandr has quit (Quit: Bye)
2165 2010-12-24 23:10:59 BJ_ has quit (Client Quit)
2166 2010-12-24 23:12:37 <skull23> Does anyone have a recommendation as to , what should be made so i can contribute to this bitcoint society ?.
2167 2010-12-24 23:13:20 <Cusipzzz> sell stuff for btc, and buy stuff for btc. and spread the word.
2168 2010-12-24 23:13:58 genjix has joined
2169 2010-12-24 23:17:34 <Diablo-D3> skull23: well, really, the only thing you can do is HAVE bitcoins.
2170 2010-12-24 23:18:02 <Diablo-D3> having bitcoins, and maintaining the act of having them, is worth more than anything
2171 2010-12-24 23:18:05 <Diablo-D3> imo anyways
2172 2010-12-24 23:18:52 <skull23> So, would it be allright if i created an information gathering service?, via, warez/torrents/misc that people can't find?
2173 2010-12-24 23:19:07 <skull23> i could also extract information from email address and use that as a side option.
2174 2010-12-24 23:19:29 <Cusipzzz> ?
2175 2010-12-24 23:22:58 <skull23> you never hear of 'dox' before ?
2176 2010-12-24 23:26:47 <necrodearia> skull23, My suggestion is the same things that are made to contribute to societies or communities that revolve around other popular currencies.
2177 2010-12-24 23:27:02 <Cusipzzz> why would you want to gather dox?
2178 2010-12-24 23:27:03 <skull23> aight
2179 2010-12-24 23:27:23 <skull23> why wouldn't you want to know everything about the person your talking to when you have there email?
2180 2010-12-24 23:28:23 <genjix> ^^
2181 2010-12-24 23:28:37 <Cusipzzz> and for new emails ?
2182 2010-12-24 23:29:06 <skull23> all emails can be doxed, its just a matter of how much information you can extract/verify
2183 2010-12-24 23:29:23 <skull23> usually with the few bits and details a person gives you within the first conversation, you can gather quite a lot.
2184 2010-12-24 23:29:48 <genjix> google is the best way to dox coders :)
2185 2010-12-24 23:29:56 <skull23> example; com.lullar.com | www.pipl.com/email
2186 2010-12-24 23:30:12 <skull23> google is the god of all dox materials my friend ^_^
2187 2010-12-24 23:30:18 <Diablo-D3> dox, generally, are for losers.
2188 2010-12-24 23:30:41 <skull23> theres always one hater ... XD
2189 2010-12-24 23:31:41 <genjix> - sit in a net cafe
2190 2010-12-24 23:31:44 <Diablo-D3> You're talking to the guy that almost singlehandedly destroyed Freenode.
2191 2010-12-24 23:31:44 <genjix> - steal cookies
2192 2010-12-24 23:31:53 <genjix> - loginto everyon's facebook
2193 2010-12-24 23:31:57 <genjix> - cause havoc
2194 2010-12-24 23:32:05 <genjix> ohhh the guy who stole op?
2195 2010-12-24 23:32:15 <genjix> and started +b the mods?
2196 2010-12-24 23:32:24 <skull23> LOL
2197 2010-12-24 23:32:32 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no.
2198 2010-12-24 23:32:34 <genjix> is that Diablo-D3 ?
2199 2010-12-24 23:32:39 <genjix> ok
2200 2010-12-24 23:32:41 <Diablo-D3> I'm the guy that used tor and brought down the entire network.
2201 2010-12-24 23:32:58 <skull23> and that did what for you exactly?
2202 2010-12-24 23:33:05 <genjix> cool
2203 2010-12-24 23:33:09 <Diablo-D3> skull23: it made me very happy.
2204 2010-12-24 23:33:14 <genjix> how did you do that?
2205 2010-12-24 23:33:22 <Diablo-D3> genjix: trade secret.
2206 2010-12-24 23:33:30 <genjix> heh
2207 2010-12-24 23:33:43 <genjix> there was a guy who took control of freenode and started k-lining the mods
2208 2010-12-24 23:33:47 <genjix> operators
2209 2010-12-24 23:33:56 <skull23> i'm sure he probablly used social engineering and gained accsess threw similar close to admin accounts then got the admin and did whatever.
2210 2010-12-24 23:34:10 <genjix> blaa blaa
2211 2010-12-24 23:34:31 <Diablo-D3> genjix: that was jmax
2212 2010-12-24 23:34:32 <genjix> doesnt sound like you know
2213 2010-12-24 23:34:42 <Diablo-D3> he didnt social engineer it
2214 2010-12-24 23:34:49 <Diablo-D3> he guessed lilo's oper password
2215 2010-12-24 23:34:55 <genjix> aha ic
2216 2010-12-24 23:34:58 <skull23> oh thats just a fail XD
2217 2010-12-24 23:35:02 <Diablo-D3> because lilo diddnt setup the fucking hostmask right
2218 2010-12-24 23:35:08 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmax-
2219 2010-12-24 23:35:10 <skull23> whatever happend to passwords being 'secure'? ....
2220 2010-12-24 23:35:32 <Diablo-D3> and the password hashes wern't salted
2221 2010-12-24 23:35:44 <skull23> oh come on now, thats just sloppy.
2222 2010-12-24 23:35:51 <Diablo-D3> this is lilo we're talking about here
2223 2010-12-24 23:35:56 <Diablo-D3> he screwed up constantly
2224 2010-12-24 23:36:02 <Kiba> don't speak ill of the dead!
2225 2010-12-24 23:36:07 <genjix> lilo was cool
2226 2010-12-24 23:36:16 <Diablo-D3> Kiba: dude, I was probably the last person to talk to him
2227 2010-12-24 23:36:20 <skull23> Kiba, so we can't point out the obvious?
2228 2010-12-24 23:36:27 <genjix> i read his essay on altruism
2229 2010-12-24 23:36:30 <Diablo-D3> and its not like I destroyed freenode for fun
2230 2010-12-24 23:36:33 <genjix> kind of hippy but i liked it.
2231 2010-12-24 23:36:33 <Diablo-D3> I did it to prove a point.
2232 2010-12-24 23:36:41 <genjix> nah :p you did it for fun
2233 2010-12-24 23:36:47 <Diablo-D3> well, it was fun, sure
2234 2010-12-24 23:36:57 <skull23> diablo-d3, http://forum.intern0t.net/network-security-cryptography/431-cryptography-ebooks.html
2235 2010-12-24 23:37:20 <Diablo-D3> skull23: I do not need to read an ebook on cryptography =P
2236 2010-12-24 23:37:48 <skull23> I'm researching that material atm, i wanna read all the books the guy put up there , cause its awesome material.
2237 2010-12-24 23:37:49 <Diablo-D3> genjix: basically, lilo tried to push out everyone associated with atheme and nenolod
2238 2010-12-24 23:37:58 <skull23> so far i really like the 'OTP' one time pad.
2239 2010-12-24 23:38:23 <genjix> dont know who atheme and nenlod is
2240 2010-12-24 23:38:42 <genjix> wikipedia says they're freenode services...
2241 2010-12-24 23:39:35 <Kiba> so...
2242 2010-12-24 23:39:38 <Kiba> my car is totaled
2243 2010-12-24 23:39:47 <Kiba> christmas eve gift
2244 2010-12-24 23:39:49 <Kiba> I guess
2245 2010-12-24 23:40:44 <necrodearia> what does the total come out to?
2246 2010-12-24 23:40:56 <Cusipzzz> insurance?
2247 2010-12-24 23:41:27 <Diablo-D3> genjix: atheme is a set of projects, all of which involve nenolod
2248 2010-12-24 23:41:34 <Diablo-D3> nenolod wrote the ircd freenode is currently using
2249 2010-12-24 23:41:40 <genjix> Diablo-D3: my school expelled me because of a string of offenses over several year ending with me gaining adming... if you tell me how you took down freenode, i'll tell you how i took down my highschool :p
2250 2010-12-24 23:41:41 <Diablo-D3> something lilo was very against
2251 2010-12-24 23:41:53 <genjix> im curious
2252 2010-12-24 23:41:59 <Diablo-D3> genjix: I was virtually the head of staff for my hs.
2253 2010-12-24 23:42:28 <genjix> yeah well my hs was narrow minded and just tried rto crush me all the time.
2254 2010-12-24 23:42:41 <genjix> screw me into my hole.
2255 2010-12-24 23:42:44 <Diablo-D3> heh.
2256 2010-12-24 23:42:50 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, no, Im not going to tell you how it worked
2257 2010-12-24 23:42:55 <Diablo-D3> I dont particularly want to see that repeated
2258 2010-12-24 23:42:58 <genjix> baww cmon :(
2259 2010-12-24 23:43:14 <genjix> free information <- you do not hold that ideal.
2260 2010-12-24 23:43:14 <Kiba> genjix: so you pawn your own high school tech department?
2261 2010-12-24 23:43:25 <genjix> could. this was years ago.
2262 2010-12-24 23:43:33 <necrodearia> genjix, information wants to be free, but its captors may not want it to.
2263 2010-12-24 23:44:03 <skull23> information disclosure anyone? :P
2264 2010-12-24 23:44:13 <Diablo-D3> that, and it doesnt work anymore anyhow
2265 2010-12-24 23:44:17 <genjix> and i had hate between me and admins, so much of my time was spent trying to spite them.
2266 2010-12-24 23:44:34 <Diablo-D3> I (minorly) helped identify the specific flaws that allowed it to happen
2267 2010-12-24 23:44:47 <Diablo-D3> a new version of tor was pushed out shortly after that eliminated that hole
2268 2010-12-24 23:45:13 <necrodearia> genjix, Instead of trying to spite them, perhaps you can practice with drod and potentially smite them
2269 2010-12-24 23:45:26 <genjix> lets try to take down microsoft
2270 2010-12-24 23:45:31 <genjix> \m/ rock on \m/
2271 2010-12-24 23:45:44 <skull23> idiocy at it's best .....
2272 2010-12-24 23:46:30 <genjix> oh hello there steve ballmer.
2273 2010-12-24 23:47:01 <Diablo-D3> microsoft is taking itself down
2274 2010-12-24 23:47:12 <genjix> yep :)
2275 2010-12-24 23:47:13 <Diablo-D3> linux, ironically, ended up not being a threat to them
2276 2010-12-24 23:47:19 <Diablo-D3> their own faggotry is doing it all by itself
2277 2010-12-24 23:47:59 <Diablo-D3> I think the kin failure destroying winphone7 is the best one thus far
2278 2010-12-24 23:48:29 <Diablo-D3> kin == giant launch parties, commercials. in store displays, at&t as their chosen network
2279 2010-12-24 23:48:33 <Diablo-D3> 538 sold.
2280 2010-12-24 23:48:39 <Diablo-D3> not 538 thousand, just 538.
2281 2010-12-24 23:48:42 <Diablo-D3> after three days.
2282 2010-12-24 23:49:02 <Diablo-D3> everyone fearing winphone7 is a repeat, its stillborn
2283 2010-12-24 23:49:58 <Diablo-D3> I cant think of a bigger screw up
2284 2010-12-24 23:50:00 <genjix> cant really comment. we're not the same use-case as everyone else for these things.
2285 2010-12-24 23:50:06 <Diablo-D3> and I can think of a lot of micrsooft screwups
2286 2010-12-24 23:50:12 <Diablo-D3> genjix: there isnt a usecase
2287 2010-12-24 23:50:21 <Diablo-D3> everyone who gives a fuck about cell phones already chose sides here
2288 2010-12-24 23:50:21 <genjix> with our tiling desktops and terminals :p
2289 2010-12-24 23:50:28 <Diablo-D3> either iphone or android
2290 2010-12-24 23:50:37 <genjix> yeah i dont have a phone :p
2291 2010-12-24 23:50:41 <Diablo-D3> the ones that dont own one of those own a rather dumbphone
2292 2010-12-24 23:51:11 <genjix> like facebook- do anyone here understand this?
2293 2010-12-24 23:51:26 <genjix> no hacker could've invented this. it's beyond their reality.
2294 2010-12-24 23:51:30 <skull23> there is no point to facebook,other then 'timewaster'.
2295 2010-12-24 23:51:36 <necrodearia> genjix, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=this
2296 2010-12-24 23:51:40 <Diablo-D3> facebook wasnt inventedin that sense
2297 2010-12-24 23:51:59 <skull23> genjix; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpLNlSKugHw
2298 2010-12-24 23:52:16 <genjix> > privacy
2299 2010-12-24 23:52:20 <genjix> > links youtube
2300 2010-12-24 23:52:23 <genjix> -_-
2301 2010-12-24 23:53:41 <Diablo-D3> facebook has slowly been grown
2302 2010-12-24 23:54:37 <Diablo-D3> facebook is a bunch of fucking dicks anyhow
2303 2010-12-24 23:54:47 <Diablo-D3> you know why?
2304 2010-12-24 23:54:47 <skull23> true that :P
2305 2010-12-24 23:54:55 <Diablo-D3> they convinced people cassandra was worth using
2306 2010-12-24 23:54:55 <genjix> so much possible with the power of the net, but nobody can see
2307 2010-12-24 23:55:35 cosurgi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2308 2010-12-24 23:55:57 <genjix> except the technologists :p
2309 2010-12-24 23:56:12 <skull23> tbh, isn't the 'net' supposed to be called the 'arpanet' ?
2310 2010-12-24 23:56:42 <genjix> the net could be so much more but it's limited by limited vision.
2311 2010-12-24 23:57:16 <Diablo-D3> skull23: no, its called the internet
2312 2010-12-24 23:58:58 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)