1 2011-01-02 00:00:06 <tcatm> MacRohard: haven't seen him on IRC ever
   2 2011-01-02 00:00:45 james has joined
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   5 2011-01-02 00:02:05 <tcatm> grondilu: => lost wallet?
   6 2011-01-02 00:02:19 <grondilu> no
   7 2011-01-02 00:02:29 <Cusipzzz> rats =)
   8 2011-01-02 00:02:37 <grondilu> I think it's the <(...) that bitcoind doesn't like.
   9 2011-01-02 00:02:49 <grondilu> I mean :  >(...)
  10 2011-01-02 00:03:01 <tcatm> What should that >(foo) do?
  11 2011-01-02 00:03:12 <Cusipzzz> or the foo ! s/foo/bar
  12 2011-01-02 00:03:12 <grondilu> some kind of a pipe in bash.
  13 2011-01-02 00:03:33 <grondilu> the foo was just an attempt.  It was xxd
  14 2011-01-02 00:03:40 <lfm> grondilu yes, do not use > just name output
  15 2011-01-02 00:04:15 <grondilu> well, this would make a more elegant backup script
  16 2011-01-02 00:04:16 <devon_hillard> [1/2/11 2:00:18 AM] ERROR: Can't connect to Bitcoin: Failed to communicate with
  17 2011-01-02 00:04:16 <devon_hillard> bitcoind: {"id": "1", "result": null, "error": {"message": "Server temporarily d
  18 2011-01-02 00:04:16 <devon_hillard> own for maintenance", "code": -131}}
  19 2011-01-02 00:04:51 <tcatm> grondilu: backupwallet /dev/stdout
  20 2011-01-02 00:04:58 <lfm> grond sorry, not elegant but it works
  21 2011-01-02 00:05:38 <lfm> tcatm pretty sure that wont work
  22 2011-01-02 00:05:56 <grondilu> tcatm: /dev/stdout doesn't work either
  23 2011-01-02 00:06:42 <grondilu> I hate to have to make a file when I could use a pipe
  24 2011-01-02 00:06:59 <lfm> stdout isnt a dev, it is just a handle
  25 2011-01-02 00:07:46 <lfm> grondilu well > makes a file too
  26 2011-01-02 00:07:59 <tcatm> strange. It outputs the file to stdout but that can't be redirected
  27 2011-01-02 00:08:51 <lfm> tcatm you may be thinking of /dev/tty
  28 2011-01-02 00:11:01 <tcatm> grondilu: bitcoind backupwallet /dev/null & cat wallet.dat > foo
  29 2011-01-02 00:11:15 <lfm> nonono
  30 2011-01-02 00:11:27 <tcatm> backupwallet does a sleep(100)
  31 2011-01-02 00:11:28 <grondilu> to /dev/null ??
  32 2011-01-02 00:11:29 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  33 2011-01-02 00:11:45 <lfm> cat wallet.dat >foo might make bad  copy in the middle of an update
  34 2011-01-02 00:12:17 <grondilu> I actually think backup wallet should not write to a file but to stdout.
  35 2011-01-02 00:12:19 <tcatm> lfm: backupwallet closes db and writes it to disk, then does a "cp wallet.dat $file" and sleep(100)
  36 2011-01-02 00:12:27 <marioxcc> grondilu: why?
  37 2011-01-02 00:12:47 <grondilu> because it's a security issue for people having their wallet on an encrypted disk.
  38 2011-01-02 00:12:54 <tcatm> so if you copy wallet.dat manually within 100s after calling backupwallet the wallet will be okay
  39 2011-01-02 00:12:55 <lfm> grondilu well you need to change bitcoin sources then. only way
  40 2011-01-02 00:13:08 <grondilu> I'm a poor programmer.
  41 2011-01-02 00:13:17 <lfm> tcatm how can you know that?
  42 2011-01-02 00:13:24 <tcatm> lfm: see db.cpp
  43 2011-01-02 00:13:24 <marioxcc> grondilu: what's the problem with stdout piping?
  44 2011-01-02 00:13:38 <grondilu> marioxcc: it just doesn't work.
  45 2011-01-02 00:13:43 <tcatm> function BackupWallet()
  46 2011-01-02 00:13:48 <lfm> because backupwallet command doesn ot use stdout at all
  47 2011-01-02 00:14:04 <marioxcc> if piping don't works the tool is brooken
  48 2011-01-02 00:14:24 <lfm> fine you rewrite it
  49 2011-01-02 00:15:05 tylergillies has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  50 2011-01-02 00:15:18 <marioxcc> lfm: I WILL do, you WILL see
  51 2011-01-02 00:15:23 <marioxcc> :)
  52 2011-01-02 00:15:24 <lfm> note wallet.dat is a database file. makes no sense to pipe it
  53 2011-01-02 00:15:41 <MacRohard> can you do bitcoind backupwallet /dev/stdout > foo ?
  54 2011-01-02 00:15:41 <grondilu> yes it does.
  55 2011-01-02 00:15:50 <lfm> macr no
  56 2011-01-02 00:16:00 <MacRohard> ahh. oh well. :/
  57 2011-01-02 00:16:02 <tcatm> MacRohard: nope, the redirection doesn't work
  58 2011-01-02 00:16:15 <tcatm> will output everything on stdout and fsck up terminal ;)
  59 2011-01-02 00:16:27 <MacRohard> oh. so it would work?
  60 2011-01-02 00:16:39 <MacRohard> just do ( bitcoind backupwallet /dev/stdout ) > foo
  61 2011-01-02 00:16:39 james_ has joined
  62 2011-01-02 00:16:43 <lfm> only think you would ever want to do with it is write to a file.
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  64 2011-01-02 00:16:58 <tcatm> MacRohard: doesn't work
  65 2011-01-02 00:17:02 <MacRohard> why not?
  66 2011-01-02 00:17:05 <tcatm> no idea
  67 2011-01-02 00:17:13 <marioxcc> lfm: or send it by SSH
  68 2011-01-02 00:17:17 <marioxcc> pipe to gpg
  69 2011-01-02 00:17:20 <marioxcc> and so
  70 2011-01-02 00:17:25 <lfm> makes a race condition. might work most of the time
  71 2011-01-02 00:17:25 <tcatm> bitcoin does a filesystem::copy_file(DATADIR + "wallet.dat", "/dev/stdout");
  72 2011-01-02 00:17:44 <lfm> prolly only fails when you really need a backup
  73 2011-01-02 00:17:55 <grondilu> couldn't I use something like "scp <(bitcoind backupwallet |gpg -c) wallet.dat.gpg"
  74 2011-01-02 00:18:02 <grondilu> ?
  75 2011-01-02 00:18:14 <lfm> tcatm THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ?DEV?STDOUT
  76 2011-01-02 00:18:15 <tcatm> lfm: backupwallet does a basic file copy without any fancy DB stuff so it's perfectly fine to copy the file manually after calling backupwallet
  77 2011-01-02 00:18:16 <grondilu> wouldn't that be cool ?
  78 2011-01-02 00:18:25 <lfm> tcatm THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS /dev/stdout
  79 2011-01-02 00:18:51 <tcatm>   File: „/dev/stdout“ -> „/proc/self/fd/1“
  80 2011-01-02 00:19:06 <lfm> what you think your gonna do? diplay it on your screen?
  81 2011-01-02 00:19:06 <MacRohard> oh hmm
  82 2011-01-02 00:19:06 <grondilu> lfm: indeed it is just a shortcut
  83 2011-01-02 00:19:45 <MacRohard> yea.. just do /proc/self/fd/1 instead of /dev/stdout
  84 2011-01-02 00:19:49 <MacRohard> if you don't have that
  85 2011-01-02 00:20:06 <MacRohard> bitcoind backupwallet /proc/self/fd/1
  86 2011-01-02 00:20:10 <MacRohard> maybe heh
  87 2011-01-02 00:20:14 <lfm>   ../fd/.. is a file descriptor handle, not a device
  88 2011-01-02 00:20:24 <grondilu> true
  89 2011-01-02 00:20:30 <sipa> slush: what is the unit for the "difficulty" entry in the node table in your pool?
  90 2011-01-02 00:20:51 <sipa> the difficulty we're working at is 1, so that number is maybe the number of zero-bits in the hash
  91 2011-01-02 00:20:54 <sipa> ?
  92 2011-01-02 00:21:34 <marioxcc> why is it listed anyways? do it changes for some workers?
  93 2011-01-02 00:21:35 <lfm> sipa that value in the work data would have to be the real difficulty for the whole bitcoin net or it wouldnt work
  94 2011-01-02 00:21:35 <tcatm> lfm: yep, passing that fd-handle to open() will return you the fd
  95 2011-01-02 00:21:56 <grondilu> scp <(bitcoind backupwallet - |gpg -c) user@host:wallet.dat.gpg
  96 2011-01-02 00:22:08 <sipa> lfm: i've no idea what you mean?
  97 2011-01-02 00:22:24 <sipa> marioxcc: i heard slush doesn't intend to change it
  98 2011-01-02 00:22:32 <tcatm> grondilu: use the /dev/null approach
  99 2011-01-02 00:22:50 <grondilu> you're kidding ?  /dev/null ?
 100 2011-01-02 00:22:55 <tcatm> no
 101 2011-01-02 00:22:58 <lfm> why not just put the file name in the command line where its spozed to be?
 102 2011-01-02 00:23:01 <marioxcc> sipa: weird
 103 2011-01-02 00:23:10 <grondilu> lfm: because it's not cool
 104 2011-01-02 00:23:15 <lfm> bull
 105 2011-01-02 00:23:27 <grondilu> :)
 106 2011-01-02 00:23:43 <tcatm> bitcoind backupwallet /dev/null; scp <(gpg -c /home/grondilu/.bitcoin/wallet.dat) user@host:wallet.dat.gpg
 107 2011-01-02 00:23:43 <lfm> its not cool to unduely complicate your scripts
 108 2011-01-02 00:23:57 <maazu> happy new year all!
 109 2011-01-02 00:23:58 maazu has left ("Konversation terminated!")
 110 2011-01-02 00:24:23 <grondilu> tcatm: oh I get it now.  Would that really work ?
 111 2011-01-02 00:24:41 <lfm> no, you are asking for a bad copy tcatms way
 112 2011-01-02 00:25:02 <tcatm> except for small race conditions, yes (so you should keep older versions of your wallet)
 113 2011-01-02 00:25:13 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 114 2011-01-02 00:25:31 <grondilu> lfm: please confirm/infirm what tcatm says
 115 2011-01-02 00:25:35 <lfm> or just stop bitcoin then you can copy all you want
 116 2011-01-02 00:26:13 <lfm> yes, "small" race condition means "small" chance of bad backup file
 117 2011-01-02 00:26:54 <nanotube> tcatm: why not keep a second copy just in case? e.g., bitcoind backupwallet wallet.backup.dat; scp .... wallet.backup.dat.gpg
 118 2011-01-02 00:26:56 <tcatm> possible race conditions: TX sent/received just between backupwallet and gpg call
 119 2011-01-02 00:27:06 <nanotube> tcatm: that way you avoid any race conditions
 120 2011-01-02 00:27:20 <nanotube> you can delete the backup after you're done, if needed.
 121 2011-01-02 00:27:35 <tcatm> nanotube: grondilu would prefer to not keep any files on disk
 122 2011-01-02 00:27:38 <lfm> nanotube could be 2 bad backs (yes small chance)
 123 2011-01-02 00:28:12 tjgillies has joined
 124 2011-01-02 00:28:28 <lfm> his wallet.dat (original) is already on disk! backup on disk does not increase vulnerability
 125 2011-01-02 00:29:01 <grondilu> lfm: yes but my wallet.dat is on an encrypted disk.  I have to make sure the temp backup is too.
 126 2011-01-02 00:29:16 <grondilu> It's a risk of mistake
 127 2011-01-02 00:29:33 <MacRohard> an attacker with sameuser accses will be able to steal it regardless
 128 2011-01-02 00:29:43 <lfm> grondilu so specifiy the back on ecyrpted disk then
 129 2011-01-02 00:30:05 <tcatm> grondilu: you could backupwallet it to a ramdisk
 130 2011-01-02 00:30:14 <grondilu> hum...
 131 2011-01-02 00:30:24 <grondilu> or via a pipe !
 132 2011-01-02 00:30:24 <MacRohard> attacker can just snarf it with strace
 133 2011-01-02 00:30:43 <lfm> "bitcoind backupwallet /mnt/encrypted/wallet.bak" no problem
 134 2011-01-02 00:31:05 <grondilu> I just would like to do "bitcoind backupwallet -"
 135 2011-01-02 00:31:15 <lfm> grondilu nope
 136 2011-01-02 00:31:30 <grondilu> all unix programs should be able to use the "-" special filename
 137 2011-01-02 00:31:44 <tcatm> hm
 138 2011-01-02 00:31:57 <lfm> all computer should read minds and do what you want, not what you tell them
 139 2011-01-02 00:31:57 <tcatm> I just realized why /dev/stdout does not work.
 140 2011-01-02 00:32:06 <luke-jr> grondilu: bitcoin is too poorly designed for so many standard *nix stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if that fails
 141 2011-01-02 00:32:17 <MacRohard> tcatm, why not?
 142 2011-01-02 00:32:19 <tcatm> It's written to the stdout of bitcoind server process
 143 2011-01-02 00:32:28 <EvanR> luke-jr is into bitcoin?
 144 2011-01-02 00:32:28 <MacRohard> oh. which is closed.
 145 2011-01-02 00:32:30 <tcatm> Not the one making the RPC call
 146 2011-01-02 00:32:37 <luke-jr> EvanR: who are you?
 147 2011-01-02 00:32:37 <lfm> BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS /dev/stdout
 148 2011-01-02 00:32:38 <EvanR> i bet hes the fbi agent
 149 2011-01-02 00:32:44 <luke-jr> lfm: there is on my system
 150 2011-01-02 00:32:52 <tcatm> Either closed or still on some terminal, but never affected by the redirection
 151 2011-01-02 00:33:01 <EvanR> luke-jr: your worst nightmare
 152 2011-01-02 00:33:26 <MacRohard> yea.. makes sense
 153 2011-01-02 00:33:29 <sipa> lfm: you have /proc/self/fd ?
 154 2011-01-02 00:33:56 <tcatm> So what we really need is a RPC call to that transfers the wallet over the network...
 155 2011-01-02 00:34:12 <lfm> sipa only on linux, not mswin, not solaris
 156 2011-01-02 00:34:22 <sipa> yeah
 157 2011-01-02 00:34:24 <grondilu> does that mean I could get the output using "bitcoind 1>bitcoin.out" or something ?
 158 2011-01-02 00:34:27 <luke-jr> http://lightfoot.dashjr.org/
 159 2011-01-02 00:35:07 <lfm> grondilu just go write your own bitcoin, forget using this one that way, its not how it works
 160 2011-01-02 00:35:09 <tcatm> grondilu: yep, but then you'd need to restart bitcoind before and after transfer
 161 2011-01-02 00:35:09 <MacRohard> grondilu, perhaps.
 162 2011-01-02 00:35:43 <MacRohard> well you could truncate the file before doing the save
 163 2011-01-02 00:35:47 <MacRohard> and then you wouldn't need to restart it
 164 2011-01-02 00:35:48 * grondilu is trying to restart bitcoind with "mkfifo bitcoind.out; bitcoind > bitcoind.out"
 165 2011-01-02 00:35:50 <tcatm> [Cso bitcoind > foo & bitcoind backupwallet /dev/stdout; bitcoind stop
 166 2011-01-02 00:35:53 <luke-jr> perhaps better to link to http://lightfoot.dashjr.org/?page=vps&currency=BTC
 167 2011-01-02 00:36:18 marioxcc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 168 2011-01-02 00:36:28 <MacRohard> cp /dev/null bitcoin.out ; bitcoind backupwallet /dev/stdout
 169 2011-01-02 00:36:43 <luke-jr> is plural supposed to be 'bitcoins' or 'bitcoin'? :
 170 2011-01-02 00:36:44 <tcatm> grondilu: a fifo seems to be more complicated than backupping to a ramdisk ;)
 171 2011-01-02 00:37:13 <tcatm> (ramdisk can usually be found on /dev/shm/)
 172 2011-01-02 00:37:17 <MacRohard> what's the point of backing up to a ramdisk though?
 173 2011-01-02 00:37:32 <tcatm> MacRohard: not having an unencrypted wallet on disk
 174 2011-01-02 00:37:45 <sipa> but you already have, no?
 175 2011-01-02 00:37:46 <tcatm> he keeps his wallet on an encrypted volume
 176 2011-01-02 00:37:51 <MacRohard> meh. it can still be stolen from ram
 177 2011-01-02 00:37:57 marioxcc has joined
 178 2011-01-02 00:38:01 <lfm> macrichard no point, just grondilu wishes the world worked the way he immagines it should
 179 2011-01-02 00:38:02 <sipa> well, the backup could be placed on the encrypted volume as well?
 180 2011-01-02 00:38:09 <MacRohard> or most likely while it's being written to wherever
 181 2011-01-02 00:38:54 <MacRohard> a backup over rpc command soudns like a nice thing to have
 182 2011-01-02 00:39:11 <lfm> gronilu you know how to use named pipes? Not sure if mswin has the concept is all
 183 2011-01-02 00:39:14 <MacRohard> but i guess transferring it over the network is a massive security issue too
 184 2011-01-02 00:39:17 <tcatm> backup over rpc could be a security issue
 185 2011-01-02 00:39:26 <sipa> lfm: i doubt it
 186 2011-01-02 00:39:44 <tcatm> though not much more than getbalance / sendtoaddress
 187 2011-01-02 00:40:05 <MacRohard> heh true
 188 2011-01-02 00:40:59 <grondilu> didn't work anyway
 189 2011-01-02 00:41:01 <tcatm> I personally keep encrypted incremental backups that include the whole .bitcoin folder
 190 2011-01-02 00:41:18 <sipa> same
 191 2011-01-02 00:41:29 <tcatm> So if one of those backups broke my wallet I'd just restore an older version
 192 2011-01-02 00:42:51 <lfm> tcatm fine just use cat walet.dat | scp - whatever then. if you dont care if your backups are any good
 193 2011-01-02 00:43:59 <grondilu> hum.
 194 2011-01-02 00:44:03 <grondilu> good idea
 195 2011-01-02 00:44:24 <tcatm> I don't run my "personal wallet" bitcoin 24/7, only when I need to do transactions so most (automated hourly) backups should be fine :P
 196 2011-01-02 00:45:39 <grondilu> mybe I could do a :  $ f=wallet.$(date +%s).dat ; bitcoind backupwallet $f ; tar af wallet.dat.tar $f ; scp wallet.dat.tar ...
 197 2011-01-02 00:46:20 <tcatm> tar jaf
 198 2011-01-02 00:46:29 <tcatm> there will probably a lot of redundant data
 199 2011-01-02 00:46:38 <grondilu> true
 200 2011-01-02 00:47:28 <lfm> ya since current system only needs backups after 100 txn
 201 2011-01-02 00:48:11 <nanotube> or move, if you run with a bigger pool...
 202 2011-01-02 00:48:13 <nanotube> more
 203 2011-01-02 00:49:56 Diablo-D3 has joined
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 206 2011-01-02 01:00:31 <grondilu> hum... there's no use compressing an archive of encrypted files.
 207 2011-01-02 01:00:48 <grondilu> unless I encrypt the archive.
 208 2011-01-02 01:01:11 <sipa> indeed
 209 2011-01-02 01:01:12 <EvanR> theres still no point in compressing
 210 2011-01-02 01:01:15 <grondilu> which means I have to decrypt it before I want to add some files.  This is silly
 211 2011-01-02 01:01:39 <sipa> and decrypt the files you want to put in it as well
 212 2011-01-02 01:02:12 <lfm> yes, compress first then encrypt
 213 2011-01-02 01:02:20 <marioxcc> of course
 214 2011-01-02 01:02:48 <grondilu> I thought encryption already reduces size
 215 2011-01-02 01:02:58 <marioxcc> haha, no
 216 2011-01-02 01:02:59 <sipa> no
 217 2011-01-02 01:03:06 <marioxcc> encryption is encryption
 218 2011-01-02 01:03:09 <marioxcc> no size change
 219 2011-01-02 01:03:13 <marioxcc> well, format overhead
 220 2011-01-02 01:03:14 <marioxcc> and so
 221 2011-01-02 01:03:33 <sipa> gpg supports compression before it encrypts, i think
 222 2011-01-02 01:03:33 <marioxcc> padding also, depending on the mode used
 223 2011-01-02 01:03:41 <lfm> in general encryption adds to size if only by a few bytes. some encryption systems have built in compression tho
 224 2011-01-02 01:03:52 <marioxcc> sipa: it does, but it isn't that encryption reduces size, is just GPG happens to compress too
 225 2011-01-02 01:04:04 <sipa> marioxcc: that's exactly what i say :)
 226 2011-01-02 01:04:16 <sipa> s/say/mean/
 227 2011-01-02 01:04:21 <marioxcc> ok
 228 2011-01-02 01:05:21 <marioxcc> why isn't minerd in cpuminer a daeom?
 229 2011-01-02 01:05:30 <marioxcc> the d sounds silly if it don't daemonize
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 233 2011-01-02 01:06:32 <nanotube> marioxcc: suggest that on the cpuminer forum thread or github issues
 234 2011-01-02 01:06:50 <marioxcc> uh
 235 2011-01-02 01:07:25 <EvanR> nanotube: i have a cloak, how do i rate people
 236 2011-01-02 01:07:32 <nanotube> yea, forget about the forum thread, i know you don't do forums. :) but github issues
 237 2011-01-02 01:07:37 <nanotube> EvanR: use the rate command.
 238 2011-01-02 01:07:43 <EvanR> rate nanotube
 239 2011-01-02 01:07:44 <marioxcc> nanotube: :)
 240 2011-01-02 01:07:53 <EvanR> ;;rate
 241 2011-01-02 01:07:53 <gribble> (rate <nick> <rating> [<notes>]) -- Enters a rating for <nick> in the amount of <rating>. Use optional <notes> field to enter any notes you have about this user. Things like transaction details, or total transactions you've had with this user are good candidates for notes. Your previously existing rating, if any, will be overwritten.
 242 2011-01-02 01:08:16 <nanotube> EvanR: take it to -otc :)
 243 2011-01-02 01:08:21 <EvanR> oh, wrong channel
 244 2011-01-02 01:08:22 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 245 2011-01-02 01:10:02 Slix` has joined
 246 2011-01-02 01:21:27 <tfoote> If anyone's interested in testing a port of the bitcoin build system. I've pushed a branch onto github which uses CMake.  I hope it'll make cross platform builds a little easier to maintain.  https://github.com/tfoote/bitcoin/tree/cmake_devel
 247 2011-01-02 01:21:45 <Diablo-D3> dont use cmake.
 248 2011-01-02 01:21:48 james_ has joined
 249 2011-01-02 01:21:49 <Diablo-D3> bad tfoote
 250 2011-01-02 01:22:24 <afed> when slush takes his server down, my gpus fall silent
 251 2011-01-02 01:22:41 Guest38225 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 252 2011-01-02 01:23:50 <sipa> same :)
 253 2011-01-02 01:25:42 <lfm> ya pools are wonderful arnt they
 254 2011-01-02 01:26:42 glassresistor has joined
 255 2011-01-02 01:27:18 <nanotube> multiple pools ftw.
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 261 2011-01-02 01:38:55 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: http://pastebin.com/xSPfKF7U
 262 2011-01-02 01:39:49 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you're on the pool?
 263 2011-01-02 01:39:59 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: yes, the bitcoin.cz pool
 264 2011-01-02 01:40:05 <Diablo-D3> restart the client when it does that
 265 2011-01-02 01:40:26 <devon_hillard> why does it do it?
 266 2011-01-02 01:41:09 <Diablo-D3> because he restarted the pool daemon
 267 2011-01-02 01:46:44 james__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 268 2011-01-02 01:47:11 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
 269 2011-01-02 01:47:34 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3, I mean, the NullPointerException
 270 2011-01-02 01:48:00 <Diablo-D3> it failed in getwork, and then getwork pushed null into the getwork variable
 271 2011-01-02 01:48:02 james_ has joined
 272 2011-01-02 01:48:17 <Diablo-D3> it ONLY happens if you restart the client the miner connects to
 273 2011-01-02 01:48:19 <Diablo-D3> and only very rarely
 274 2011-01-02 01:48:45 <devon_hillard> I should modify the source to catch this particular exception
 275 2011-01-02 01:48:53 <Diablo-D3> you cant
 276 2011-01-02 01:48:58 <devon_hillard> or modify the startup script to restart in case of an exception
 277 2011-01-02 01:49:02 <Diablo-D3> not with your proposed solution
 278 2011-01-02 01:49:15 <Diablo-D3> the exception happens because the variable is set to null
 279 2011-01-02 01:49:24 <Diablo-D3> I should check if the variable WOULD be set to null and then fail to set it
 280 2011-01-02 01:54:01 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 281 2011-01-02 01:58:43 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: in the main function, I'm putting a try/catch block: try { ...} catch (NullPointerException e) { Thread.sleep (10000); DiabloMiner diabloMiner = new DiabloMiner(); diabloMiner.execute(args); }
 282 2011-01-02 01:58:48 <devon_hillard> as a quick workaround
 283 2011-01-02 01:58:54 <Diablo-D3> dont.
 284 2011-01-02 01:59:02 <Diablo-D3> thats a very ugly fix
 285 2011-01-02 01:59:08 <Diablo-D3> and I already said exactly how it should be fixed.
 286 2011-01-02 01:59:56 akem has joined
 287 2011-01-02 01:59:59 noagendamarket has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 288 2011-01-02 02:00:03 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: here? CL10.clEnqueueWriteBuffer(queue, output, CL10.CL_FALSE, 0, buffer, null, null);
 289 2011-01-02 02:01:38 <Diablo-D3> nope.
 290 2011-01-02 02:02:16 <devon_hillard> hm... the stack trace must be off then (using the binary distribution)
 291 2011-01-02 02:02:37 <Diablo-D3> no, its probably failing there
 292 2011-01-02 02:02:41 <Diablo-D3> but your fix is wrong
 293 2011-01-02 02:03:53 james has joined
 294 2011-01-02 02:04:19 james is now known as Guest57364
 295 2011-01-02 02:04:49 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 296 2011-01-02 02:05:24 <devon_hillard> restarting the server does not seem to induce the error every time
 297 2011-01-02 02:05:59 <Diablo-D3> nope, it doesnt
 298 2011-01-02 02:06:05 <Diablo-D3> it only when it gets stuck during sending the response
 299 2011-01-02 02:06:38 <devon_hillard> ah, and since the pool sends easier tasks, responses are more frequent
 300 2011-01-02 02:06:49 <Diablo-D3> yeha
 301 2011-01-02 02:07:03 <Diablo-D3> if it fails when its not in motion, ie, it never connects, it triggers correctly
 302 2011-01-02 02:07:12 <devon_hillard> I can replicate the exception with bitcoind, but the miner keeps on cracking after the server restart
 303 2011-01-02 02:07:28 <devon_hillard> the pool just restarted and the miner stopped cracking
 304 2011-01-02 02:07:43 <Diablo-D3> it only does it every once in awhile
 305 2011-01-02 02:11:35 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * re3c3bfb / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
 306 2011-01-02 02:11:35 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: Fixed rare exception when Bitcoin disconnects in the middle of a
 307 2011-01-02 02:11:35 <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: response - http://bit.ly/eyx3FI
 308 2011-01-02 02:13:33 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: A wise man once said, '↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A
 309 2011-01-02 02:13:42 <devon_hillard> Mortal Kombat fatality? :)
 310 2011-01-02 02:13:46 <Diablo-D3> konami code
 311 2011-01-02 02:14:03 Animeking has joined
 312 2011-01-02 02:14:19 akem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 313 2011-01-02 02:14:37 <Animeking> and then extract the contents of the archive to this new folder. The executable which will be used is poclbm.exe, but this must be launched via command line and given several launch parameters. This can be tedious to do on windows, so we will expedite this with a batch script. (and your final path to poclbm.exe should be C:\bitcoin\poclbm_py2exe_20101214\poclbm.exe)" - m0m, so what exactly  does
 314 2011-01-02 02:14:38 <Animeking> this mean
 315 2011-01-02 02:15:40 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: that should handle it
 316 2011-01-02 02:15:57 <Animeking> oh
 317 2011-01-02 02:16:01 <Animeking> didn't read the next step
 318 2011-01-02 02:16:02 <Animeking> forget it
 319 2011-01-02 02:17:48 james_ has joined
 320 2011-01-02 02:18:10 Guest57364 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 321 2011-01-02 02:24:34 genjix has joined
 322 2011-01-02 02:24:42 <genjix> hey
 323 2011-01-02 02:25:01 <genjix> if someone gives me a txid, how can I check it?
 324 2011-01-02 02:25:17 <genjix> b2ce4919d281aae2d1c5433296cfdce69ce5d1926dc93c23c0fb7bd4ef09f17b
 325 2011-01-02 02:27:54 <MT`AwAy> genjix: either modify your client, or wait for it to appear on bbe
 326 2011-01-02 02:28:08 <genjix> what is bbe?
 327 2011-01-02 02:28:14 <Animeking> http://pastebin.com/D7kJQq5n  Why is it that pyopencl miner givesm e this error everytime I try to open it -.-
 328 2011-01-02 02:28:15 <genjix> blockexplorer.com?
 329 2011-01-02 02:28:17 <MT`AwAy> http://blockexplorer.com/
 330 2011-01-02 02:28:19 <Animeking> With or without the batch file.
 331 2011-01-02 02:28:23 <genjix> ok thanks
 332 2011-01-02 02:28:26 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BBE
 333 2011-01-02 02:29:04 <genjix> MT`AwAy: btw can you make the font for sourcecode larger on the wiki?
 334 2011-01-02 02:29:10 <genjix> the same size as on wikipedia.
 335 2011-01-02 02:29:14 <genjix> it is far too small
 336 2011-01-02 02:29:18 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_(JSON-RPC)
 337 2011-01-02 02:31:04 <MT`AwAy> genjix: this has already been proposed, got any idea how big you want it?
 338 2011-01-02 02:31:28 <genjix> as big as the indentation from
 339 2011-01-02 02:31:31 <genjix>   blocks
 340 2011-01-02 02:31:47 <MT`AwAy> right now it seems to be "1em"
 341 2011-01-02 02:32:04 <genjix> how big is the font in the blocks where you indent by 2 spaces?
 342 2011-01-02 02:32:44 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_(JSON-RPC)#Controlling_Bitcoin
 343 2011-01-02 02:32:50 <genjix> like these ones.
 344 2011-01-02 02:33:09 <Animeking> and why is poclbm 0 KB o.O
 345 2011-01-02 02:34:18 <MT`AwAy> mh
 346 2011-01-02 02:34:22 <MT`AwAy> it got overwritten :(
 347 2011-01-02 02:35:25 <Animeking> -.-
 348 2011-01-02 02:35:37 <genjix> http://awesome.naquadah.org/ <- they accept bitcoins now and will add their bitcoin address soon to the front page :)
 349 2011-01-02 02:37:11 <MT`AwAy> gah
 350 2011-01-02 02:38:08 <MT`AwAy> how do I give priority to a definition in css?
 351 2011-01-02 02:38:40 <genjix> i think newer definitions always take priority in css :o
 352 2011-01-02 02:38:57 <MT`AwAy> ok
 353 2011-01-02 02:38:58 <MT`AwAy> genjix: fixed
 354 2011-01-02 02:39:05 <MT`AwAy> [11:35:44] <genjix> i think newer definitions always take priority in css :o <- or important ones
 355 2011-01-02 02:39:13 <MT`AwAy> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MediaWiki:Geshi.css <- I used keyword !important
 356 2011-01-02 02:39:17 <MT`AwAy> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/cascade.html#important-rules <- doc
 357 2011-01-02 02:39:21 <genjix> MT`AwAy: looks great
 358 2011-01-02 02:39:42 james__ has joined
 359 2011-01-02 02:39:47 <genjix> oh wow- learn new things everyday :)
 360 2011-01-02 02:39:55 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 361 2011-01-02 02:40:09 <MT`AwAy> it's part of CSS2
 362 2011-01-02 02:40:09 <MT`AwAy> :p
 363 2011-01-02 02:41:33 <marioxcc> what will happen when the first halving is here?
 364 2011-01-02 02:41:43 <marioxcc> the time between miners isn't synced
 365 2011-01-02 02:41:52 <marioxcc> some will still mine 50BTC blocks
 366 2011-01-02 02:41:54 <marioxcc> what will happen to them?
 367 2011-01-02 02:42:05 <marioxcc> or do that goes by block count?
 368 2011-01-02 02:42:28 <MT`AwAy> first halving?
 369 2011-01-02 02:42:44 <marioxcc> when block values halve
 370 2011-01-02 02:42:46 <MacRohard> hmm i guess it depends which concept of time the majority of the network adheres too
 371 2011-01-02 02:42:49 <marioxcc> from 50 to 25
 372 2011-01-02 02:43:15 <noot> i guess block count
 373 2011-01-02 02:43:29 <noot> otherwise it will not be exactly 21000000
 374 2011-01-02 02:43:41 <noot> in total
 375 2011-01-02 02:43:42 <marioxcc> well, it isn't exactly 21000000
 376 2011-01-02 02:43:50 <marioxcc> it's a bit less
 377 2011-01-02 02:43:56 <noot> why is that?
 378 2011-01-02 02:44:02 <marioxcc> because of lack of presicion
 379 2011-01-02 02:44:23 <marioxcc> it converges to 21000000 at infinity
 380 2011-01-02 02:44:28 <marioxcc> but there won't be infinite halves
 381 2011-01-02 02:44:31 <noot> precision of what?
 382 2011-01-02 02:44:36 <marioxcc> bitcoin division
 383 2011-01-02 02:44:47 <marioxcc> it will go from 0.00000001 to 0
 384 2011-01-02 02:44:49 * genjix has emails from richard stallman and eben moglen :O
 385 2011-01-02 02:45:00 <genjix> ^ slight brag there
 386 2011-01-02 02:45:00 <noot> i don't think this will be a problem
 387 2011-01-02 02:45:09 <noot> in the end you just have a transaction
 388 2011-01-02 02:45:15 * luke-jr has provided email service to Richard Stallman. so there.
 389 2011-01-02 02:45:31 <genjix> guess im not that special then
 390 2011-01-02 02:45:33 <marioxcc> noot: i don't say it is a problem
 391 2011-01-02 02:45:36 <noot> and the exact amounts are added or subtracted from your acount
 392 2011-01-02 02:45:40 <noot> *account
 393 2011-01-02 02:45:48 <marioxcc> genjix: several people is involved with the GNU projects and its members
 394 2011-01-02 02:45:52 <marioxcc> that's the GNU project nature
 395 2011-01-02 02:46:10 <marioxcc> my email is @gnu.org for instance
 396 2011-01-02 02:46:22 <marioxcc> because i'm a volunteer in GNU Savannah
 397 2011-01-02 02:48:24 <genjix> i wanted to hand copyright of my program over to fsf
 398 2011-01-02 02:48:30 <genjix> but the restrictions are too much
 399 2011-01-02 02:48:39 <marioxcc> huh, restrictions?
 400 2011-01-02 02:49:05 <marioxcc> noot: here you have: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_long_will_it_take_to_generate_all_the_coins?
 401 2011-01-02 02:49:06 <marioxcc> :)
 402 2011-01-02 02:49:24 <genjix> (texinfo documentation, code style, fitting operability tests, ...)
 403 2011-01-02 02:49:46 <marioxcc> genjix: oh, the gnu coding standards
 404 2011-01-02 02:50:03 <marioxcc> thats in order to maintain coherence and a certain minimum quality among gnu software
 405 2011-01-02 02:50:16 <luke-jr> genjix: Im sure they would take a donation of copyright, without making it a GNU project
 406 2011-01-02 02:50:25 <genjix> luke-jr: they won't.
 407 2011-01-02 02:50:29 <marioxcc> genjix: here you have: http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/
 408 2011-01-02 02:50:43 <marioxcc> luke-jr: the FSF hold only copyright for GNU projects
 409 2011-01-02 02:50:45 * luke-jr wonders if you can assign copyright to them against their will
 410 2011-01-02 02:51:05 <marioxcc> you could put "Copyright SUCH and SUCH and Free software foundation"
 411 2011-01-02 02:51:14 <genjix> which is silly... why can't they hold copyrights for others?
 412 2011-01-02 02:51:19 <marioxcc> but there is no point in doing so
 413 2011-01-02 02:51:25 <marioxcc> genjix: why should they?
 414 2011-01-02 02:51:38 <marioxcc> if they hold copyright for a project is to defend it
 415 2011-01-02 02:51:39 <genjix> because they believe in keeping all software free
 416 2011-01-02 02:51:55 <marioxcc> sure, but
 417 2011-01-02 02:52:01 <genjix> well then.
 418 2011-01-02 02:52:09 <marioxcc> there is another option for that
 419 2011-01-02 02:52:18 <marioxcc> see http://softwarefreedom.org/
 420 2011-01-02 02:52:29 <genjix> XFree86 - wouldn't have happened if licensed to GNU
 421 2011-01-02 02:52:32 <kiba> we need to be free of the shakle of copyright!
 422 2011-01-02 02:52:52 <marioxcc> genjix: they can put it under the GNU GPL without putting the copyright to the FSF!
 423 2011-01-02 02:53:03 <genjix> marioxcc: i emailed them too... not very helpful.
 424 2011-01-02 02:53:05 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 425 2011-01-02 02:53:07 <kiba> copyight is a babric system created as a system of economic privillege
 426 2011-01-02 02:53:08 <marioxcc> hey, don't make the GNU responsible for the choise of other people
 427 2011-01-02 02:53:18 <marioxcc> kiba: i disagree
 428 2011-01-02 02:53:21 <marioxcc> it's a good idea in priciple
 429 2011-01-02 02:53:31 <marioxcc> but it has been manipulated
 430 2011-01-02 02:53:32 <marioxcc> so much
 431 2011-01-02 02:53:39 <genjix> < marioxcc> genjix: they can put it under the GNU GPL without putting the copyright to the FSF!
 432 2011-01-02 02:53:40 <marioxcc> than now it's the other way around
 433 2011-01-02 02:53:42 <kiba> it's not that it's manipulated, it's alway been that way
 434 2011-01-02 02:53:43 <genjix> what?
 435 2011-01-02 02:53:44 <genjix> what?
 436 2011-01-02 02:53:45 <genjix> < marioxcc> genjix: they can put it under the GNU GPL without putting the copyright to the FSF!
 437 2011-01-02 02:53:59 <kiba> copyright is a bad idea, affont to the idea of libertarian property right
 438 2011-01-02 02:54:01 <luke-jr> copyright could be good, with a limit of like 5 years and requirement to publish the source
 439 2011-01-02 02:54:04 <marioxcc> genjix: whatever they want
 440 2011-01-02 02:54:18 <kiba> an enemy of freedom
 441 2011-01-02 02:54:26 <kiba> it's a monopoly enforced by the state
 442 2011-01-02 02:54:30 <genjix> marioxcc: well they didn't agree
 443 2011-01-02 02:54:47 <marioxcc> genjix: they don't have to agree anything
 444 2011-01-02 02:54:50 <genjix> they said they'll help defend my software if that ever arose
 445 2011-01-02 02:54:56 <marioxcc> you can put whathever you want under the GNU GPL
 446 2011-01-02 02:54:59 <genjix> but they're not taking copyrights on
 447 2011-01-02 02:55:04 <marioxcc> and then call the FSF to help
 448 2011-01-02 02:55:10 <marioxcc> or any other organization
 449 2011-01-02 02:55:13 <marioxcc> if need
 450 2011-01-02 02:55:16 <genjix> my software is under the GPL
 451 2011-01-02 02:55:22 <marioxcc> fine then
 452 2011-01-02 02:55:22 <genjix> however i have investors
 453 2011-01-02 02:55:24 <marioxcc> we appreciate that
 454 2011-01-02 02:55:30 <marioxcc> kiba: i undestand your concern
 455 2011-01-02 02:55:43 <marioxcc> but copyright used to be for the benefit of users
 456 2011-01-02 02:55:44 <genjix> i dont want them ever in the future to strongarm me into putting an alternative license on
 457 2011-01-02 02:55:46 <kiba> marioxcc: it's inconsistent with property right.
 458 2011-01-02 02:55:46 <marioxcc> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.html
 459 2011-01-02 02:55:58 <luke-jr> kiba: information isn't propert
 460 2011-01-02 02:56:08 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i think that's what he mean :P
 461 2011-01-02 02:56:10 <genjix> so to do that, i want to transfer the copyright to a neutral organisation
 462 2011-01-02 02:56:15 <luke-jr> genjix: GPL can't be revoked
 463 2011-01-02 02:56:32 <genjix> luke-jr: right, but the copyright holder can apply a new license to the project
 464 2011-01-02 02:56:35 <kiba> marioxcc: If you have read the history of IP, it's a long history of a very sick game
 465 2011-01-02 02:56:36 <genjix> i.e XFree86
 466 2011-01-02 02:56:45 <genjix> I DONT want that to be possible EVER
 467 2011-01-02 02:56:54 <marioxcc> kiba: i know, it sucks, i just mean it COULD be a good thing
 468 2011-01-02 02:56:59 <genjix> not even if i want to do it myself
 469 2011-01-02 02:57:05 <marioxcc> i invite you to read the above link, kiba
 470 2011-01-02 02:57:11 <marioxcc> it explains in deep what i mean
 471 2011-01-02 02:57:13 <kiba> marioxcc: it COULD be is based on flawed economic reasoning
 472 2011-01-02 02:57:19 <marioxcc> but with a more readable english
 473 2011-01-02 02:57:21 <marioxcc> hehe
 474 2011-01-02 02:57:38 * kiba is a veteran and read GNU philosophy and DISAGREE with it
 475 2011-01-02 02:57:54 <marioxcc> kiba: I DO have a problem with current copyright
 476 2011-01-02 02:58:02 <marioxcc> i would like it to be completely different
 477 2011-01-02 02:58:09 <marioxcc> that's why I do support free software
 478 2011-01-02 02:58:23 <marioxcc> because I believe in the freedoms the GNU movement advocate
 479 2011-01-02 02:58:32 <genjix> ....
 480 2011-01-02 02:58:32 <kiba> I am a person submerged into hacker culture, but it doesn't mean that I support copyleft software
 481 2011-01-02 02:58:41 <genjix> so nobody has any suggestions?
 482 2011-01-02 02:58:52 <marioxcc> genjix: so
 483 2011-01-02 02:58:58 <marioxcc> what you don't want is to have the possibility
 484 2011-01-02 02:59:00 <kiba> on the contary, I think some aspect of what RMS advocate is evil.
 485 2011-01-02 02:59:05 <marioxcc> of get forced by your invesstors
 486 2011-01-02 02:59:07 <kiba> we should be free to distribute closed source software
 487 2011-01-02 02:59:10 <marioxcc> to release it under another license
 488 2011-01-02 02:59:11 <marioxcc> true?
 489 2011-01-02 02:59:14 <genjix> right.
 490 2011-01-02 02:59:29 <genjix> e.g free license and premium special features proprietary
 491 2011-01-02 02:59:33 <marioxcc> genjix: i undestand your concern, i would just say clearly "NO"
 492 2011-01-02 02:59:40 <marioxcc> but if you can't
 493 2011-01-02 02:59:41 <genjix> goodbye money.
 494 2011-01-02 02:59:43 <genjix> lol
 495 2011-01-02 02:59:52 <marioxcc> I suggest you ask the fsf what to do
 496 2011-01-02 02:59:57 <kiba> the user have the right to do anything with the sfotware they brought
 497 2011-01-02 02:59:58 <marioxcc> not whether they accept your copyright
 498 2011-01-02 02:59:58 <genjix> i did.
 499 2011-01-02 03:00:01 BoBeR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 500 2011-01-02 03:00:04 <luke-jr> genjix: this sounds easy.
 501 2011-01-02 03:00:06 <kiba> but so do programmers who sell the software to the user
 502 2011-01-02 03:00:07 <marioxcc> genjix: what did they said?
 503 2011-01-02 03:00:08 <luke-jr> genjix: give yourself copyright.
 504 2011-01-02 03:00:09 <genjix> they said "we'll think about it when it happens."
 505 2011-01-02 03:00:16 BoBeR has joined
 506 2011-01-02 03:00:28 <marioxcc> kiba: to release proprietary software is a power
 507 2011-01-02 03:00:29 <genjix> FSF said "we only take copyright from GNU projects"
 508 2011-01-02 03:00:32 <marioxcc> over other people
 509 2011-01-02 03:00:41 <luke-jr> genjix: your investors can only force your corporation to do things, not you as an individual.
 510 2011-01-02 03:01:04 <kiba> marioxcc: RMS's brand of free software is inconsistent with property right principle
 511 2011-01-02 03:01:07 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 512 2011-01-02 03:01:10 <genjix> luke-jr: that assumes im a person with no obligations and complete freedom. which si false.
 513 2011-01-02 03:01:10 <marioxcc> luke-jr: sure, but a big "NO" isn't good for business
 514 2011-01-02 03:01:13 <luke-jr> kiba: information isn't property
 515 2011-01-02 03:01:24 <marioxcc> kiba: property right?
 516 2011-01-02 03:01:39 <kiba> marioxcc: read up on Libertarian ethical theory
 517 2011-01-02 03:01:40 <marioxcc> property don't applies to information as does for phisical things
 518 2011-01-02 03:01:48 <luke-jr> kiba: Libertarian is wrong
 519 2011-01-02 03:01:50 <marioxcc> kiba: link?
 520 2011-01-02 03:01:55 <genjix> "im putting a tax on anger".
 521 2011-01-02 03:02:00 <kiba> sure it does, the information in my head is property
 522 2011-01-02 03:02:07 <luke-jr> Libertarian is idolatry of liberty
 523 2011-01-02 03:02:13 <marioxcc> kiba: why is it?
 524 2011-01-02 03:02:17 <kiba> and you're that guy from #anime?
 525 2011-01-02 03:02:17 <marioxcc> you can copy and use information as you want
 526 2011-01-02 03:02:22 <marioxcc> it doesn't matter
 527 2011-01-02 03:02:27 <marioxcc> because it doesn't consumes
 528 2011-01-02 03:02:32 <kiba> I have the right to silence as much as I have the right to free speech
 529 2011-01-02 03:02:36 <marioxcc> you can have as many instances as you want for virtually no const
 530 2011-01-02 03:02:49 <kiba> so you're telling me that I must release the source code for my software
 531 2011-01-02 03:02:53 <marioxcc> yes
 532 2011-01-02 03:02:53 <genjix> no
 533 2011-01-02 03:02:57 <genjix> thats not what gpl says
 534 2011-01-02 03:02:58 <marioxcc> that's what i'm telling you kiba
 535 2011-01-02 03:03:06 <marioxcc> well
 536 2011-01-02 03:03:07 <luke-jr> genjix: yes it does
 537 2011-01-02 03:03:11 <genjix> private changes stay private
 538 2011-01-02 03:03:11 <kiba> no, I have the right to not release the source code for my software
 539 2011-01-02 03:03:15 <marioxcc> only if you publis it in binary form
 540 2011-01-02 03:03:22 <marioxcc> kiba: but why do you?
 541 2011-01-02 03:03:26 <luke-jr> kiba: no
 542 2011-01-02 03:03:33 <kiba> marioxcc: because I own the information on my computer
 543 2011-01-02 03:03:38 <genjix> so you are wrong kiba
 544 2011-01-02 03:03:43 <genjix> and stop trolling
 545 2011-01-02 03:03:44 <marioxcc> kiba: you're on a circular dependency
 546 2011-01-02 03:03:48 <marioxcc> please...
 547 2011-01-02 03:03:50 <luke-jr> information doesn't have owners
 548 2011-01-02 03:03:51 <kiba> why is it so?
 549 2011-01-02 03:04:04 <marioxcc> kiba: why do you apply property to information in first placd?
 550 2011-01-02 03:04:17 <marioxcc> property applies to goods because they wear and can be only used a finite number of times
 551 2011-01-02 03:04:21 <marioxcc> by a finite number of people
 552 2011-01-02 03:04:27 <marioxcc> information don't have this limitant
 553 2011-01-02 03:04:34 <marioxcc> hence the property thing is meaningless
 554 2011-01-02 03:04:48 <kiba> I still maintain the right to hold secret information
 555 2011-01-02 03:05:01 <luke-jr> kiba: secret, yes
 556 2011-01-02 03:05:12 <luke-jr> but not public-with-ties
 557 2011-01-02 03:05:19 <kiba> therefore, I have the right to keep information secret, especially things like software
 558 2011-01-02 03:05:29 <luke-jr> kiba: closed source is not secret
 559 2011-01-02 03:05:37 <kiba> you can reverse engineer it or whatever
 560 2011-01-02 03:05:40 <luke-jr> closed source is merely difficult to exercise fair use rights
 561 2011-01-02 03:06:11 <luke-jr> closed source is the most basic form of DRM
 562 2011-01-02 03:06:12 * marioxcc is glad to see there is people in this channel which appreciate software freedom in one way or another :)
 563 2011-01-02 03:06:19 <kiba> well
 564 2011-01-02 03:06:30 <kiba> the free sfotware people have a long debate with me in a thread called copyfree
 565 2011-01-02 03:06:40 <kiba> it's somewhere on the forum
 566 2011-01-02 03:06:48 * kiba is a proponent of copyfree
 567 2011-01-02 03:06:56 <marioxcc> kiba: there isn't "free software people"
 568 2011-01-02 03:07:04 <marioxcc> no single one represents the free software people
 569 2011-01-02 03:07:05 <kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1972.0
 570 2011-01-02 03:07:07 <bitbot> Growing the Copyfree Movement
 571 2011-01-02 03:07:17 <marioxcc> there are several free software supporters
 572 2011-01-02 03:07:20 <marioxcc> with incompatible opinions
 573 2011-01-02 03:07:50 * kiba is not a supporter pf oprietary software or free software. He just think copyright is unethical
 574 2011-01-02 03:08:22 <luke-jr> it's one or the other
 575 2011-01-02 03:08:46 <marioxcc> kiba: you can't keep neutral
 576 2011-01-02 03:08:54 <kiba> it's not that I am netural
 577 2011-01-02 03:09:09 <kiba> I am an opponent against copyright. Please learn the proper distinction
 578 2011-01-02 03:09:48 <marioxcc> free software don't imply copyright
 579 2011-01-02 03:09:56 <marioxcc> public domain software with source is an example
 580 2011-01-02 03:10:05 <kiba> The GPL is a copyright license. I oppose copyright licenses.
 581 2011-01-02 03:10:13 <luke-jr> GPL != free software
 582 2011-01-02 03:10:19 <luke-jr> GPL is one kind of free software license
 583 2011-01-02 03:10:48 <marioxcc> yeah
 584 2011-01-02 03:11:26 <kiba> also note that I don't release proprietary software
 585 2011-01-02 03:11:42 <marioxcc> no one argues that
 586 2011-01-02 03:11:56 <luke-jr> then you release free software?
 587 2011-01-02 03:12:01 <luke-jr> or just don't release software?
 588 2011-01-02 03:12:26 <kiba> I release software, more often BSD these day..but I am going to release more and more public domain
 589 2011-01-02 03:12:36 <luke-jr> so free software
 590 2011-01-02 03:13:03 <kiba> I don't have a problem with people continue to release closed source software. It's not my problem.
 591 2011-01-02 03:13:28 <kiba> my only objective is to end the use of copyright
 592 2011-01-02 03:13:35 <marioxcc> you won't
 593 2011-01-02 03:13:43 <marioxcc> we won't, even if we want to do so
 594 2011-01-02 03:13:46 <marioxcc> that's utopical
 595 2011-01-02 03:13:57 <marioxcc> the best you can do is to use copyright to defend what you believe in
 596 2011-01-02 03:13:59 <kiba> it's simply inconsistent with libertarianism.
 597 2011-01-02 03:14:08 <marioxcc> that's wath copyleft is about
 598 2011-01-02 03:14:25 <luke-jr> libertarianism is a false religion
 599 2011-01-02 03:14:37 <kiba> copyleft doesn't sastify libertarianism ethical theory.
 600 2011-01-02 03:14:56 <luke-jr> and yes, it really IS a religion
 601 2011-01-02 03:15:27 <marioxcc> let's avoid the "religion" word
 602 2011-01-02 03:15:33 <marioxcc> it just generates discussion and trolling :)
 603 2011-01-02 03:15:33 * kiba sense idealogical disconnect
 604 2011-01-02 03:15:51 <luke-jr> what's wrong with discussion? XD
 605 2011-01-02 03:16:45 <marioxcc> luke-jr: I mean trolling
 606 2011-01-02 03:16:52 <marioxcc> educated discussion is good
 607 2011-01-02 03:17:05 <kiba> I was not trolling. This is a serious position held by anarchists on the bitcoin forum.
 608 2011-01-02 03:17:10 <kiba> by many
 609 2011-01-02 03:17:21 <luke-jr> who cares what position nutcases hold?
 610 2011-01-02 03:17:54 <marioxcc> kiba: i didn't mean you, I just ask to avoid the work "religion"
 611 2011-01-02 03:17:54 <kiba> most people on the forum ARE Libertarian..shouldn't you at least understand what the majority believe in?
 612 2011-01-02 03:18:12 <luke-jr> kiba: democracy is even more flawed than libertarianism ☺
 613 2011-01-02 03:18:13 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
 614 2011-01-02 03:18:15 <marioxcc> lol
 615 2011-01-02 03:18:17 <marioxcc> majority...
 616 2011-01-02 03:18:22 <marioxcc> the dictatorship of the majority
 617 2011-01-02 03:18:26 <kiba> genjix: No, I wasn't arguing anything
 618 2011-01-02 03:18:28 <marioxcc> = democracy
 619 2011-01-02 03:18:29 <marioxcc> :P
 620 2011-01-02 03:18:34 <kiba> I was arguing that you should understand what the majority think
 621 2011-01-02 03:18:42 <genjix> "most people on the forum ARE Libertarian" < troll harder.
 622 2011-01-02 03:18:43 <kiba> it's a pragramatic position
 623 2011-01-02 03:18:45 <luke-jr> … contradiction
 624 2011-01-02 03:18:53 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Copyleft allows you to sue someone if you they don't distribute code the way you like... is that really what copyleft is all about?
 625 2011-01-02 03:19:05 <AAA_awright> genjix: It's true though, from what I can tell
 626 2011-01-02 03:19:14 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
 627 2011-01-02 03:19:15 <marioxcc> aaa_awright: of course not
 628 2011-01-02 03:19:17 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
 629 2011-01-02 03:19:18 <genjix> logical fallacy. appeal to authority.
 630 2011-01-02 03:19:24 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: Copyright allows that. Copyleft defines what you don't like as "power abuse"
 631 2011-01-02 03:19:30 <kiba> we are not making appeal to authority, we're just pointing out what people believe
 632 2011-01-02 03:19:35 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: usually you urge them to comply with the license
 633 2011-01-02 03:19:37 larsig has joined
 634 2011-01-02 03:19:52 <marioxcc> if they don't want to, you reminds them of the legal validity of the GNU GPL
 635 2011-01-02 03:19:56 <marioxcc> a sue is the last resource
 636 2011-01-02 03:20:04 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That's how the GPL is enforced though, you are *NOT* allowed to distribute your own property unless it's done according to the terms specified by the copyright owner
 637 2011-01-02 03:20:30 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: except those terms are "you must not deny others their fair use rights"
 638 2011-01-02 03:20:33 james has joined
 639 2011-01-02 03:20:46 * kiba sigh
 640 2011-01-02 03:20:48 <luke-jr> eg, "your right to throw a fist stops at my face"
 641 2011-01-02 03:20:59 <kiba> this debate is fruitless if you guys don't agree on ethical positiion
 642 2011-01-02 03:20:59 james is now known as Guest56213
 643 2011-01-02 03:21:00 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That's a violation of individual rights because it obligates me to do something I don't voluntarially agree to
 644 2011-01-02 03:21:02 james__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 645 2011-01-02 03:21:05 <genjix> logical fallacy. confirmation bias.
 646 2011-01-02 03:21:23 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: it doesn't matter whether or not you agree not to murder me. you still aren't allowed to murder me.
 647 2011-01-02 03:21:28 <genjix> this like watching 2 wet tissues flap at each other.
 648 2011-01-02 03:21:35 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: No because you own yourself
 649 2011-01-02 03:22:02 <genjix> logical fallacy. false analogy.
 650 2011-01-02 03:22:04 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: You would have to agree to it before I'm allowed to kill you, if I even wanted to do that (I don't, clearly, but for the hypothetical)
 651 2011-01-02 03:22:09 <genjix> logical fallacy. false analogy.
 652 2011-01-02 03:22:26 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you have the right to share the information, or not share it. copyleft merely prevents you from later controlling the people who you choose to share it with.
 653 2011-01-02 03:22:33 <marioxcc> could you please write more slowly?
 654 2011-01-02 03:22:41 <marioxcc> i can't read as you type, hehe
 655 2011-01-02 03:22:51 <kiba> how is closing the source code "controlling". You're doing whatever you want with that information.
 656 2011-01-02 03:23:22 <luke-jr> kiba: because the ONLY difference between source code and binary, is your ability to exercise your right to modify it
 657 2011-01-02 03:23:29 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Right. I shouldn't be able to tell other people that they are not allowed to distribute my code unless they include sources. If they don't want to include sources, that's their decision. But no matter what, no one should be able to stop anyone from distributing anything.
 658 2011-01-02 03:23:35 <luke-jr> binary-only is DRM
 659 2011-01-02 03:23:37 <marioxcc> kiba: controlling, you know how, as a software developer
 660 2011-01-02 03:23:41 <kiba> luke-jr: so the right of the user is over software
 661 2011-01-02 03:23:42 <marioxcc> you control what your users do
 662 2011-01-02 03:23:44 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: And?
 663 2011-01-02 03:23:54 <kiba> marioxcc: the user choose if they watn to use the closed source or not.
 664 2011-01-02 03:23:55 <marioxcc> the users depend solely on you to adapt the program to their needs
 665 2011-01-02 03:23:57 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Most DRM only exists beacuse of the legal system
 666 2011-01-02 03:24:01 xelister has joined
 667 2011-01-02 03:24:03 <luke-jr> sigh
 668 2011-01-02 03:24:06 <kiba> and if the user choose to depend on the developers, that's their choice.
 669 2011-01-02 03:24:13 <genjix> logical fallacy. begging the question.
 670 2011-01-02 03:24:20 <AAA_awright> genjix: Shut up
 671 2011-01-02 03:24:24 <genjix> you SUCK
 672 2011-01-02 03:24:28 <marioxcc> kiba: great, let's put a spinning blade on the ground in the front of a street
 673 2011-01-02 03:24:34 <marioxcc> they chose whether to get to the blade or not
 674 2011-01-02 03:24:35 <genjix> arguments = fail
 675 2011-01-02 03:24:41 <Animeking> finally
 676 2011-01-02 03:24:43 <Animeking> it works.
 677 2011-01-02 03:24:51 <Animeking> the pyopencl miner finally works ;D
 678 2011-01-02 03:24:53 <kiba> marioxcc: dude, it's your choice to use propreitary software or not.
 679 2011-01-02 03:24:54 <AAA_awright> genjix: Logical fallacy, subjective as fact, false analogy
 680 2011-01-02 03:25:05 <marioxcc> kiba: not always, but even when it is
 681 2011-01-02 03:25:15 <genjix> AAA_awright: WRONG! where did i use false analogy?
 682 2011-01-02 03:25:16 <marioxcc> you don't have why to be subject to the developer unjustified power
 683 2011-01-02 03:25:21 <AAA_awright> arguments = fail
 684 2011-01-02 03:25:27 <kiba> unjustified power
 685 2011-01-02 03:25:36 <genjix> and where did i use subjective as fail too
 686 2011-01-02 03:25:40 <marioxcc> kiba: why should the developer artificially limit what the user could do?
 687 2011-01-02 03:25:42 <genjix> i used neither of those lol
 688 2011-01-02 03:25:43 <kiba> he have the same right to do whatever he want with the information
 689 2011-01-02 03:25:46 <Animeking> hmm
 690 2011-01-02 03:25:48 <AAA_awright> genjix: Because I don't suck anything
 691 2011-01-02 03:26:00 <marioxcc> kiba: but you're restricting his right by not releasing the coe
 692 2011-01-02 03:26:01 <marioxcc> *code
 693 2011-01-02 03:26:03 <kiba> marioxcc: why the frak are you patronizing such crappy ass developer?
 694 2011-01-02 03:26:04 <Animeking> I don't need to 'enable' generating BC on my bitcoins client do i
 695 2011-01-02 03:26:19 <marioxcc> kiba: what you said?
 696 2011-01-02 03:26:21 <Cusipzzz> Animeking: nope
 697 2011-01-02 03:26:24 <AAA_awright> I mean sheesh, if you're going to call logical fallacies at least make sure they are correct
 698 2011-01-02 03:26:26 <genjix> AAA_awright: evidently you do from all of your fail attempts at arguing.
 699 2011-01-02 03:26:51 <kiba> if you have the money, choose a free software developer. That's your power right there.
 700 2011-01-02 03:26:56 <marioxcc> money?
 701 2011-01-02 03:26:58 <kiba> the developer don't get to eat if they don't have money.
 702 2011-01-02 03:27:02 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: No one's rights are violated if I choose to only distribute a compiled program
 703 2011-01-02 03:27:03 <marioxcc> you don't need money to develop or not free software
 704 2011-01-02 03:27:04 <Cusipzzz> as a wise man once said, "can't we all just get along?"
 705 2011-01-02 03:27:08 <marioxcc> free software is about freedom
 706 2011-01-02 03:27:13 <marioxcc> not money
 707 2011-01-02 03:27:16 <genjix> this convo is a waste of time.
 708 2011-01-02 03:27:17 genjix has left ()
 709 2011-01-02 03:27:19 <kiba> it's a different sort of freedom, marioxcc
 710 2011-01-02 03:27:20 <marioxcc> you can make or not to make money with free software
 711 2011-01-02 03:27:24 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: My rights *are* violated if you threaten legal action if I don't release the sources, however
 712 2011-01-02 03:27:25 <marioxcc> kiba: why so?
 713 2011-01-02 03:27:38 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Or, I can withhold the binary and no one gets anything at all
 714 2011-01-02 03:27:41 <kiba> because we have different premesis. If you don't sort them, the debate doesn't go anywhere
 715 2011-01-02 03:27:44 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: which rights?
 716 2011-01-02 03:27:48 <Animeking> BSD vs GPL flameware, start!!! (kidding)
 717 2011-01-02 03:27:49 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Individual rights
 718 2011-01-02 03:27:54 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: my rights to adapt the software as I need?
 719 2011-01-02 03:28:00 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Is not a right
 720 2011-01-02 03:28:00 xelister has quit (DRUNK!~xe@ip-1-157.gemini.net.pl|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 721 2011-01-02 03:28:03 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Well
 722 2011-01-02 03:28:08 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: why not?
 723 2011-01-02 03:28:12 <marioxcc> it's the most natural thing
 724 2011-01-02 03:28:14 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: If you own the computer the software is on, sure, because it's your property
 725 2011-01-02 03:28:15 <luke-jr> [22:24:06] <AAA_awright> marioxcc: No one's rights are violated if I choose to only distribute a compiled program
 726 2011-01-02 03:28:18 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: wrong
 727 2011-01-02 03:28:19 <kiba> if you own the software, you are free to reverse engineer it, modify it, etc
 728 2011-01-02 03:28:20 <marioxcc> information is naturally repicable
 729 2011-01-02 03:28:22 <marioxcc> and adaptable
 730 2011-01-02 03:28:30 <kiba> source code are even better
 731 2011-01-02 03:28:36 <marioxcc> to restrict that is merely artifficial
 732 2011-01-02 03:28:40 <kiba> now you don't to poke and reverse engineer
 733 2011-01-02 03:28:45 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: I could not distribute anything, whose rights are violated then?
 734 2011-01-02 03:28:50 <kiba> marioxcc: it's perfectly natural for human being to restrict information.
 735 2011-01-02 03:28:52 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: none
 736 2011-01-02 03:29:08 <marioxcc> kiba: let's see, in the hyp. case i sell you a house
 737 2011-01-02 03:29:11 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: But if I do release a compiled program, then somehow I'm violating someone's rights?
 738 2011-01-02 03:29:15 <AAA_awright> Right...
 739 2011-01-02 03:29:15 <marioxcc> then when you get in
 740 2011-01-02 03:29:17 <marioxcc> i put the lock
 741 2011-01-02 03:29:22 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: if you don't include source
 742 2011-01-02 03:29:22 <marioxcc> and only me have the key
 743 2011-01-02 03:29:29 <marioxcc> you have to askme for everything you want to do
 744 2011-01-02 03:29:36 <marioxcc> because every room is locked
 745 2011-01-02 03:29:37 <marioxcc> by my key
 746 2011-01-02 03:29:43 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: ok, you do have a good point
 747 2011-01-02 03:29:44 <marioxcc> that's what proprietary software does
 748 2011-01-02 03:29:57 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: And so what, I've released a compiled program without sources, big deal, what can you do about it?
 749 2011-01-02 03:30:04 <AAA_awright> Ask me?
 750 2011-01-02 03:30:06 <kiba> marioxcc: when you buy software, you own that information. You just don't have the key to your own house. You should have brought open source software in the first place.
 751 2011-01-02 03:30:13 <AAA_awright> You certainly can't force me
 752 2011-01-02 03:30:19 <kiba> Now most people don't have a need or a desire to modify the software anyway
 753 2011-01-02 03:30:21 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you are right, to a limited extent
 754 2011-01-02 03:30:37 <marioxcc> kiba: so it's your mistrake to buy a house I have a key on?
 755 2011-01-02 03:30:48 <marioxcc> what if it's the only house left in the city?
 756 2011-01-02 03:30:58 <marioxcc> what if I need a place to rest?
 757 2011-01-02 03:31:01 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It's a (perceved) violation of software freedom, if I don't have the source code to play with, but it's not a human right. It's my choice.
 758 2011-01-02 03:31:05 <kiba> doesn't matter. it's your choice.
 759 2011-01-02 03:31:09 <marioxcc> then you're forcing me to get locked
 760 2011-01-02 03:31:19 <marioxcc> kiba: it's like if someone thorws you a gigantic bag
 761 2011-01-02 03:31:21 <kiba> I didn't force you to buy the house
 762 2011-01-02 03:31:24 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: correct. the only flaw remaining, is the idolization of liberty.
 763 2011-01-02 03:31:24 <marioxcc> you can't breath
 764 2011-01-02 03:31:28 <kiba> you brought it
 765 2011-01-02 03:31:29 <marioxcc> is your choise what to do
 766 2011-01-02 03:31:33 <kiba> without the fraking key
 767 2011-01-02 03:31:37 <marioxcc> you can try to break the bag
 768 2011-01-02 03:31:46 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Liberty is the only objective thing to argue, though
 769 2011-01-02 03:31:50 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: the government has the right to make laws forcing you to include source
 770 2011-01-02 03:31:53 <marioxcc> the "you brought it" argument is pointelss
 771 2011-01-02 03:31:57 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no, there is authority and morality
 772 2011-01-02 03:32:00 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Says who? Certainly not me
 773 2011-01-02 03:32:03 <marioxcc> you sometimes have to buy it
 774 2011-01-02 03:32:03 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: says God
 775 2011-01-02 03:32:05 <marioxcc> maybe not a game
 776 2011-01-02 03:32:07 <AAA_awright> and government has no rights that I don't
 777 2011-01-02 03:32:10 <marioxcc> but a software tool you need
 778 2011-01-02 03:32:12 <luke-jr> wrong
 779 2011-01-02 03:32:20 devon_hillard has joined
 780 2011-01-02 03:32:21 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: God endows indivdiuals with rights, not governments
 781 2011-01-02 03:32:41 <kiba> luke-jr: I remember you! We used to hang out in the #anime channel.
 782 2011-01-02 03:32:42 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: God endows individuals with right, true. But He also endows governments with authority/powr.
 783 2011-01-02 03:32:48 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It follows that governments do not have any powers that individuals do not. If I cannot steal, neither can government. If I can defend my self, so can government.
 784 2011-01-02 03:32:51 <kiba> you're that god nut!
 785 2011-01-02 03:33:39 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: it is a common fallacy, to say government gets its authority from the ruled individuals.
 786 2011-01-02 03:33:49 <luke-jr> the reality is, government's authority comes from above, not below.
 787 2011-01-02 03:33:53 <Animeking> at 42,000 khash persecond when am I expected to make more BC?
 788 2011-01-02 03:33:59 <Animeking> a week? lol
 789 2011-01-02 03:34:03 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Government does NOT get authority to violate individual rights from individuals, correct
 790 2011-01-02 03:34:04 <Animeking> I've heard the difficulty has gone up
 791 2011-01-02 03:34:09 <luke-jr> Animeking: my understand is that only the fastest machine can make them
 792 2011-01-02 03:34:30 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but for the most part, software is not a human right in any sense
 793 2011-01-02 03:34:40 <luke-jr> and government can control it as it sees fit
 794 2011-01-02 03:34:51 <AAA_awright> Uh right in what sense?
 795 2011-01-02 03:34:52 <kiba> luke-jr: no, it's the luckiest machine. Naturally the higher the hashrate, the more luckier you are...because it's essentially a lottery you enter more than anybody
 796 2011-01-02 03:35:03 <AAA_awright> I don't have a "right to not have no software"
 797 2011-01-02 03:35:11 <kiba> if you enter the lottery more and more, you have more chance at earning bitcoin
 798 2011-01-02 03:35:14 <AAA_awright> But I do have a right to be /able/ to own software
 799 2011-01-02 03:35:25 <AAA_awright> er if that makes any sense
 800 2011-01-02 03:35:28 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you don't have a right to keep secrets either
 801 2011-01-02 03:35:28 <AAA_awright> I don't have an entitlement
 802 2011-01-02 03:35:40 <marioxcc> Animeking: please see http://www.bitcoin.org/faq#How_long_does_it_take_to_generate_a_coin
 803 2011-01-02 03:35:41 <marioxcc> :)
 804 2011-01-02 03:35:45 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Nonsense, I own myself, correct? I can control what I say and do.
 805 2011-01-02 03:35:45 <kiba> keeping serects is the natural ability of a human being
 806 2011-01-02 03:35:49 <kiba> so is making it source code
 807 2011-01-02 03:35:53 <kiba> closed
 808 2011-01-02 03:36:03 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: software is information and cannot be owned, except by government exercising its authority to define ownership for it
 809 2011-01-02 03:36:09 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no, you don't own yourself
 810 2011-01-02 03:36:21 <luke-jr> kiba: not all abilities are rights
 811 2011-01-02 03:36:30 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Information is not owned, instances of information (like my hard disk drive) are owned.
 812 2011-01-02 03:36:46 <kiba> luke-jr: but property right said I should be allowed to release the software closed source.
 813 2011-01-02 03:36:59 <luke-jr> kiba: property right has NOTHING to do with software period
 814 2011-01-02 03:37:02 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: I have to own myself, if no one else does, it follows from the definition of ownership
 815 2011-01-02 03:37:03 <Animeking> Is there a reason why the unix performancefor my CPU was higher than on windows
 816 2011-01-02 03:37:03 <luke-jr> software is not property
 817 2011-01-02 03:37:11 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: God does.
 818 2011-01-02 03:37:18 <Animeking> as in, why I was making more khash with my cpu only on Lin than I was on Win
 819 2011-01-02 03:37:24 <Animeking> 4k vs 8k on lin
 820 2011-01-02 03:37:32 <kiba> if I own the software, than I have the right to manipulate its content and do whatever shit to it
 821 2011-01-02 03:37:35 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: God owns individual rights, and bestows them on individuals. They are not mine to give away in that sense,.
 822 2011-01-02 03:37:58 <luke-jr> kiba: nobody owns software
 823 2011-01-02 03:38:06 <AAA_awright> Also yes, nobody owns information
 824 2011-01-02 03:38:08 <Animeking> using the concept of God when not everyone believes in said deity bestowing rights on man is a bit off :T
 825 2011-01-02 03:38:09 <AAA_awright> That's not disputed
 826 2011-01-02 03:38:13 <kiba> luke-jr: wrong, everybody own information.
 827 2011-01-02 03:38:21 <kiba> it looks like it's owned by nobody.
 828 2011-01-02 03:38:32 <AAA_awright> Animeking: There's other arguments for individual rights too, but knowing all of them is critical
 829 2011-01-02 03:38:32 <luke-jr> Animeking: God exists without belief necessary.
 830 2011-01-02 03:38:36 <marioxcc> developers are not like god
 831 2011-01-02 03:38:46 <Animeking> luke-jr:  thats dumb.
 832 2011-01-02 03:38:48 <kiba> marioxcc: users are not also god.
 833 2011-01-02 03:38:53 <marioxcc> of course
 834 2011-01-02 03:38:54 <marioxcc> but
 835 2011-01-02 03:39:00 <marioxcc> software is very much like mathemathics
 836 2011-01-02 03:39:03 <marioxcc> it don't gets "created"
 837 2011-01-02 03:39:05 <kiba> why should users have the right to force developers?
 838 2011-01-02 03:39:13 <marioxcc> kiba: force?
 839 2011-01-02 03:39:19 <marioxcc> to do what?
 840 2011-01-02 03:39:24 <kiba> to release the source code
 841 2011-01-02 03:39:28 <luke-jr> kiba: for the betterment of society
 842 2011-01-02 03:39:35 <marioxcc> kiba: same question
 843 2011-01-02 03:39:36 <marioxcc> the other way
 844 2011-01-02 03:39:44 <marioxcc> why should have the developers the right to force users?
 845 2011-01-02 03:39:48 <marioxcc> to their power?
 846 2011-01-02 03:39:57 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: They don't
 847 2011-01-02 03:40:03 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: they do
 848 2011-01-02 03:40:05 <kiba> marioxcc: they have no power
 849 2011-01-02 03:40:10 <marioxcc> how not?
 850 2011-01-02 03:40:14 <kiba> the user is free to accept or deny
 851 2011-01-02 03:40:25 <kiba> the developer is also free to accept or deny
 852 2011-01-02 03:40:28 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: No one has the power to force anyone to do anything. If the developer has source code, no one can force them to distribute it.
 853 2011-01-02 03:40:43 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: that's another fallacy
 854 2011-01-02 03:40:44 <AAA_awright> Such an exchange of information has to happen voluntarially
 855 2011-01-02 03:40:46 <kiba> the user have the right to pirate software, but by the same token, the developer have the right to keep the source code to be closed
 856 2011-01-02 03:40:53 <marioxcc> to consfuse actual phisical power with ethics
 857 2011-01-02 03:40:59 <luke-jr> marioxcc: they're right, from a libertarianism point of view
 858 2011-01-02 03:41:24 <marioxcc> luke-jr: uh?
 859 2011-01-02 03:41:37 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: The non-aggression axiom
 860 2011-01-02 03:41:46 <Animeking> ;T Why not just live and let live. Let people do what they feel like withotu enforcing your opinions or belief on them. Whether they wanna keep their little secret formula secret or just spread it about like wildfire and overtime things will work out  :|
 861 2011-01-02 03:41:49 <marioxcc> what do have that to do?
 862 2011-01-02 03:42:08 <luke-jr> marioxcc: if the person with the information is not obliged to divulge the information, he is free to divulge it only partially
 863 2011-01-02 03:42:33 <AAA_awright> Wikipedia: The non-aggression principle (also called the non-aggression axiom, or the anti-coercion or zero aggression principle) is an ethical stance which asserts that "aggression" is inherently illegitimate. "Aggression" is defined as the "initiation" of physical force against persons or property, the threat of such, or fraud upon persons or their property. In contrast to pacifism, the non-aggression principle does not preclude
 864 2011-01-02 03:42:33 <AAA_awright> violent self-defense. The principle is a deontological (or rule-based) ethical stance.
 865 2011-01-02 03:43:01 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: wikipedia is not an aurhority at all
 866 2011-01-02 03:43:08 <marioxcc> his words have so much importance as mine does
 867 2011-01-02 03:43:12 <marioxcc> i could well have written so
 868 2011-01-02 03:43:14 <marioxcc> or you
 869 2011-01-02 03:43:15 <marioxcc> ...
 870 2011-01-02 03:43:15 <kiba> marioxcc: that is the definition of non-agression principle we accept
 871 2011-01-02 03:43:23 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: That's doesn't fail to make it a very good definition
 872 2011-01-02 03:43:30 <kiba> therefore it is accurate for AAA_awright and kiba
 873 2011-01-02 03:43:37 <marioxcc> now, that's a different thing
 874 2011-01-02 03:43:45 <AAA_awright> In the context of this conversation that's the definition
 875 2011-01-02 03:43:55 <AAA_awright> And that's the definition practically everywhere else too
 876 2011-01-02 03:44:24 <marioxcc> the problem with this
 877 2011-01-02 03:44:29 <marioxcc> is you assume information is property
 878 2011-01-02 03:44:32 <marioxcc> which is not
 879 2011-01-02 03:44:35 <marioxcc> you could make it property
 880 2011-01-02 03:44:37 <kiba> why it shouldn't be?
 881 2011-01-02 03:44:40 <marioxcc> but naturally it is free
 882 2011-01-02 03:44:47 <kiba> the user own his property, the developer own his property
 883 2011-01-02 03:44:56 <marioxcc> kiba: you're axiomizing
 884 2011-01-02 03:44:57 <kiba> marioxcc: it's only free if the source choose to divuge it
 885 2011-01-02 03:45:01 <marioxcc> why is it property?
 886 2011-01-02 03:45:09 <marioxcc> if I do make a son
 887 2011-01-02 03:45:11 <marioxcc> is my property?
 888 2011-01-02 03:45:17 <marioxcc> (this is unrelated)
 889 2011-01-02 03:45:24 <marioxcc> no, true?
 890 2011-01-02 03:45:26 <lfm> it is stealing when you leave it there and take a copy
 891 2011-01-02 03:45:39 <kiba> lfm: I think that's merely tresspassing
 892 2011-01-02 03:45:42 <marioxcc> lfm: copying isn't stealing
 893 2011-01-02 03:45:45 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Information is not owned. Instances of information are.
 894 2011-01-02 03:45:46 <marioxcc> by the own definition
 895 2011-01-02 03:45:49 <marioxcc> if you copy you duplicate
 896 2011-01-02 03:46:00 <marioxcc> the original "owner" don't have less of his copy
 897 2011-01-02 03:46:05 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: I can copy information if I see it, but I can't break into your house to copy something.
 898 2011-01-02 03:46:11 <kiba> marioxcc: we accept that.
 899 2011-01-02 03:46:15 <lfm> no one really loses
 900 2011-01-02 03:46:16 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: who says so?
 901 2011-01-02 03:46:22 <kiba> this idea isn't in dispute. Remember I am against copyright.
 902 2011-01-02 03:46:38 <marioxcc> kiba: i don't see a dispute
 903 2011-01-02 03:46:41 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: That's what natural law is
 904 2011-01-02 03:46:44 <Animeking> current day copyright is a corruption of what Copyright was originally about :|
 905 2011-01-02 03:47:00 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Maybe you reject individual rights, that's another discussion, is that the discussion we need to have/
 906 2011-01-02 03:47:00 <marioxcc> Animeking: we talked about in the begin of this discussion
 907 2011-01-02 03:47:03 <AAA_awright> ?
 908 2011-01-02 03:47:04 <kiba> Animeking: oh, that what people make justification for. In reality, it's a farce
 909 2011-01-02 03:47:14 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: what do individual rights have to do here?
 910 2011-01-02 03:47:29 <lfm> the worst thing about current copyright in my mind is the way it gets extended forever
 911 2011-01-02 03:47:30 <kiba> alway been, alway will be
 912 2011-01-02 03:47:39 <luke-jr> I support a copyright system with a 5-10 year expiracy, which requires publishing source up front
 913 2011-01-02 03:47:59 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Individual rights would say that just beacuse information is unowned, it does not follow that I can violate someone's rights to acquire it (like force them to turn over their computer with the source code)
 914 2011-01-02 03:48:01 <marioxcc> that would be beneficial
 915 2011-01-02 03:48:11 <Animeking> we still make 50 BC atm right?
 916 2011-01-02 03:48:15 <Animeking> or has it lowered finally
 917 2011-01-02 03:48:20 <marioxcc> Animeking: not yet
 918 2011-01-02 03:48:33 <marioxcc> it does every 4 years
 919 2011-01-02 03:48:38 <marioxcc> next is 2013 i think
 920 2011-01-02 03:48:44 <nanotube> every 210000 blocks
 921 2011-01-02 03:48:45 <Animeking> Ah, I see
 922 2011-01-02 03:48:48 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: in the first place
 923 2011-01-02 03:48:49 <AAA_awright> because the hard disk drive, the physical representation of the information, IS owned
 924 2011-01-02 03:48:51 <kiba> http://mises.org/store/Against-Intellectual-Property-P523.aspx
 925 2011-01-02 03:48:56 <lfm> like the world would come to an end if disney copr couldnt stop[ people from makeing mickey mouse stories and pictures
 926 2011-01-02 03:49:02 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: the representation is
 927 2011-01-02 03:49:05 <marioxcc> the information isn't
 928 2011-01-02 03:49:09 <AAA_awright> Right
 929 2011-01-02 03:49:11 <marioxcc> the hard disk can't be copied
 930 2011-01-02 03:49:17 <AAA_awright> Not physically no
 931 2011-01-02 03:49:17 <marioxcc> its information can
 932 2011-01-02 03:49:23 <marioxcc> that's what I mean
 933 2011-01-02 03:49:31 <AAA_awright> Yeah right
 934 2011-01-02 03:49:35 <marioxcc> you don't have less of a hard disk for copying its information
 935 2011-01-02 03:49:40 <nanotube> just a friendly suggestion: consider taking the copyright talk over to #bitcoin-discussion... just in case someone drops by and actually wants to talk about stuff more directly related to bitcoin? :)
 936 2011-01-02 03:49:40 <marioxcc> nor you do have less of it information
 937 2011-01-02 03:49:46 <AAA_awright> Agreed... so
 938 2011-01-02 03:49:46 <marioxcc> not even if you make 1K copies
 939 2011-01-02 03:49:56 <marioxcc> then why should we limit how information is manipulated?
 940 2011-01-02 03:50:06 <marioxcc> information isn't property
 941 2011-01-02 03:50:11 <kiba> marioxcc: that what I would ask of YOU
 942 2011-01-02 03:50:15 <luke-jr> here's a twist to the discussion:
 943 2011-01-02 03:50:20 <kiba> why are you limiting how developer deal with their own information?
 944 2011-01-02 03:50:23 <luke-jr> Are BitCoins property or information?
 945 2011-01-02 03:50:25 <luke-jr> :P
 946 2011-01-02 03:50:32 <AAA_awright> Dun dun DUN
 947 2011-01-02 03:50:40 <marioxcc> kiba: bitcions are property
 948 2011-01-02 03:50:44 <marioxcc> we know that
 949 2011-01-02 03:50:52 <marioxcc> you can't copy a bitcoin
 950 2011-01-02 03:50:53 <kiba> marioxcc: bitcoin are entirely digital
 951 2011-01-02 03:50:53 <marioxcc> well, you can
 952 2011-01-02 03:51:01 <luke-jr> actually, it's a trick question
 953 2011-01-02 03:51:02 <marioxcc> but you can't spend it twice
 954 2011-01-02 03:51:04 <marioxcc> you can use a software twice
 955 2011-01-02 03:51:05 <AAA_awright> They are mathematically limited in number, therefore it's property
 956 2011-01-02 03:51:08 <luke-jr> bitcoins are in fact, a *service*
 957 2011-01-02 03:51:11 <lfm> kiba limit developers to give users more power. there are more users than developers to it is the greater good
 958 2011-01-02 03:51:19 <luke-jr> the service of sending a transfer notice
 959 2011-01-02 03:51:22 <AAA_awright> Anything that is limited can be property, because it has to be allocated
 960 2011-01-02 03:51:36 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: allocated?
 961 2011-01-02 03:51:49 <marioxcc> again the hard disk example, i copy your hard disk information into mine
 962 2011-01-02 03:51:54 <marioxcc> your hard disk is intact
 963 2011-01-02 03:51:55 <kiba> in essence, bitcoin is property.
 964 2011-01-02 03:51:56 <AAA_awright> Right, like, with a pricing mechanism. We allocate bread based on who is willing to pay for it.
 965 2011-01-02 03:52:12 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: uh?
 966 2011-01-02 03:52:15 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: A lottery is another allocation mechanism, like what Bitcoin does to add new coins.
 967 2011-01-02 03:52:19 <kiba> bitcoins are stored in this big vault we called the blockchain right?
 968 2011-01-02 03:52:27 <kiba> the only way to assess these vault
 969 2011-01-02 03:52:31 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: I disagree with that method of pricing.
 970 2011-01-02 03:52:35 <kiba> is that we possess the correct key, right?
 971 2011-01-02 03:52:37 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Homesteading is another allocation mechanism, which is just claiming something that is unowned
 972 2011-01-02 03:52:43 <marioxcc> kiba: key?
 973 2011-01-02 03:52:49 <marioxcc> there is no key kiba, it's a hash
 974 2011-01-02 03:52:55 <kiba> marioxcc: wallets are our key to the big vault
 975 2011-01-02 03:52:57 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What about it?
 976 2011-01-02 03:52:58 <luke-jr> just because I'm willing to expend 500 hours of my time, to get what took you 1 second to make, does not mean you should demand 500 hours of my time
 977 2011-01-02 03:53:11 <kiba> wallets are a collection of private keys
 978 2011-01-02 03:53:16 <kiba> that tell us who own what.
 979 2011-01-02 03:53:17 <marioxcc> kiba: sorry, i thought you meant the block
 980 2011-01-02 03:53:20 <luke-jr> instead, you should consider how much of my time, is worth that 1 second of yours
 981 2011-01-02 03:53:20 <kiba> if you have the key, you own it!
 982 2011-01-02 03:53:28 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: but if you use a house no one elase can use it
 983 2011-01-02 03:53:33 <marioxcc> only N persons can use it at a time
 984 2011-01-02 03:53:34 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Uh, right
 985 2011-01-02 03:53:42 <marioxcc> that don't happens with information
 986 2011-01-02 03:53:50 <marioxcc> and that's why it is not property
 987 2011-01-02 03:54:03 <marioxcc> the question "who should have a slot in N to use this inforamation"
 988 2011-01-02 03:54:09 <marioxcc> as does with your house allocatioin
 989 2011-01-02 03:54:09 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What do you mean? If you're willing to buy something for $5.50, and I'm willing to sell it at that price, an exchange is made
 990 2011-01-02 03:54:10 <kiba> IF only if somebody divuge the private key
 991 2011-01-02 03:54:11 <marioxcc> is meaningless
 992 2011-01-02 03:54:18 <marioxcc> because an indefinite number of people could
 993 2011-01-02 03:54:27 <kiba> if you divuge the key, theoritically, anybody possessing the copy of that private key can access it
 994 2011-01-02 03:54:34 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but if it's only worth $2.50 to you, you shouldn't ask for $5.50
 995 2011-01-02 03:54:38 <marioxcc> kiba: what's your point?
 996 2011-01-02 03:54:43 <marioxcc> i don't mean information should be public
 997 2011-01-02 03:54:47 <marioxcc> just it isn't property
 998 2011-01-02 03:54:53 <marioxcc> bitcoins are property on the other side, why?
 999 2011-01-02 03:55:03 <marioxcc> because only someone could have it
1000 2011-01-02 03:55:08 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Why not? If I sold it under price that's a cost to me
1001 2011-01-02 03:55:10 <marioxcc> in the sense of have the capacity to spend it
1002 2011-01-02 03:55:17 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It's called oppertunity cost
1003 2011-01-02 03:55:22 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: if it's only worth $2.50 to you, $2.50 isn't undercost
1004 2011-01-02 03:55:33 <kiba> marioxcc: you own bitcoin through having the property key to access it
1005 2011-01-02 03:55:48 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Yes, to be exact it would be a $3 loss
1006 2011-01-02 03:55:48 <kiba> proper
1007 2011-01-02 03:55:52 <Animeking> wtf is a transaction fee
1008 2011-01-02 03:55:54 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Because I could have sold it for $5.50
1009 2011-01-02 03:55:54 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no
1010 2011-01-02 03:55:56 <marioxcc> kiba: because
1011 2011-01-02 03:55:59 <marioxcc> if you send a transaction
1012 2011-01-02 03:56:04 <marioxcc> it is going to included in a block
1013 2011-01-02 03:56:09 <marioxcc> and can be only used once
1014 2011-01-02 03:56:16 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but that would be extortion
1015 2011-01-02 03:56:16 <marioxcc> that is how its meant to be
1016 2011-01-02 03:56:22 <Animeking> And the fee?
1017 2011-01-02 03:56:26 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: You can't say it's only worth $2.50 to me in any event, because I would value it for more if I could sell it for more
1018 2011-01-02 03:56:31 <marioxcc> Animeking: there isn't always a fee
1019 2011-01-02 03:56:40 <marioxcc> see the wiki on fees
1020 2011-01-02 03:56:40 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: that presumes greed
1021 2011-01-02 03:56:41 <marioxcc> :)
1022 2011-01-02 03:56:44 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What if there's multiple people willing to buy it for $2.50 what do you do?
1023 2011-01-02 03:56:54 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Yes it does, nothing wrong with that
1024 2011-01-02 03:56:55 <kiba> marioxcc: well, somebody have to send the bitcoin to their vault first before everyone else
1025 2011-01-02 03:56:57 <Animeking> Whats the current price on BC anyways, like every 1 BC = 17 cents now?
1026 2011-01-02 03:57:05 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That fact by itself
1027 2011-01-02 03:57:13 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: produce more, which might drive up the cost, if you could be spending that time making more money in other ways
1028 2011-01-02 03:57:18 <AAA_awright> Animeking: Something like $0.30
1029 2011-01-02 03:57:19 <jgarzik> Animeking: http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
1030 2011-01-02 03:57:20 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: greed is evil
1031 2011-01-02 03:57:20 <Animeking> and how are these prices decides :\
1032 2011-01-02 03:57:25 <jgarzik> Animeking: open market
1033 2011-01-02 03:57:26 <marioxcc> kiba: ?
1034 2011-01-02 03:57:31 <kiba> before everyone else can use the key to send bitcoin to their vault
1035 2011-01-02 03:57:42 <kiba> marioxcc: your address is a public key right?
1036 2011-01-02 03:57:49 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Actually the desire for profit is a good thing because it means you took scarce, valuble resources and made them more valuble
1037 2011-01-02 03:57:56 <marioxcc> kiba: public key, in the cryptographic sense
1038 2011-01-02 03:58:01 <marioxcc> well, not really
1039 2011-01-02 03:58:02 <kiba> behind that is a private key, right?
1040 2011-01-02 03:58:04 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: If I were selling things at a loss that would mean I'm destroying value and that's bad, of course
1041 2011-01-02 03:58:04 <marioxcc> it's a hash of, i think
1042 2011-01-02 03:58:08 <marioxcc> yes
1043 2011-01-02 03:58:13 <marioxcc> its private
1044 2011-01-02 03:58:24 <marioxcc> is information don't affects someone else
1045 2011-01-02 03:58:26 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: greed is bad, period
1046 2011-01-02 03:58:31 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Says who?
1047 2011-01-02 03:58:32 <marioxcc> as does private software
1048 2011-01-02 03:58:36 <marioxcc> we have no problem with t hat
1049 2011-01-02 03:58:42 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: God. morality. natural law.
1050 2011-01-02 03:58:53 <marioxcc> jgarzik: did I told you?
1051 2011-01-02 03:58:57 <kiba> marioxcc: but suppose a thief try to get a hold of the bitcoin, he would send bitcoin to his adress before the owner have the chance to send bitcoin to a safe address
1052 2011-01-02 03:59:03 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Natural law somehow says greed is bad. ...
1053 2011-01-02 03:59:12 <marioxcc> jgarzik: i'm not sure, but i have done some little changes to cpuminer
1054 2011-01-02 03:59:16 xelister is now known as xelister|DrUNk
1055 2011-01-02 03:59:20 <marioxcc> to make it use a work queue
1056 2011-01-02 03:59:26 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: No matter how greedy I am I cannot acquire anything unless someone else voluntarially agrees to be helped
1057 2011-01-02 03:59:31 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|Im druuunk
1058 2011-01-02 03:59:35 <marioxcc> and the threads to not to away for network latency
1059 2011-01-02 03:59:38 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: if you have a monopoly, they have no choice
1060 2011-01-02 03:59:39 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|who wants to buy 500 BTC @ 0.01 USD
1061 2011-01-02 03:59:51 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: in your system, monopoly drives value
1062 2011-01-02 03:59:56 <luke-jr> xelister|DrUNk: me!
1063 2011-01-02 03:59:57 <AAA_awright> xelister|DrUNk: VERY HIGH LEVELS OF INTELECTUAL CONVERSATION ARE PRESENT
1064 2011-01-02 03:59:59 <marioxcc> kiba: again, bitcoins are property because they can be only spend once
1065 2011-01-02 04:00:02 <marioxcc> they're like gold in this sense
1066 2011-01-02 04:00:10 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|sure, everyone just paste here your bitcoin address
1067 2011-01-02 04:00:12 <jgarzik> marioxcc: you should post your patch to the forum
1068 2011-01-02 04:00:16 <AAA_awright> xelister|DrUNk: DUNKEN RAMBLINGS NOT RECOMMENDED IN PRESENT ATMOSPHERE
1069 2011-01-02 04:00:20 <kiba> they're property because nobody have a copy of your private key, marioxcc
1070 2011-01-02 04:00:26 <marioxcc> jgarzik: i don't like forums, that's why i'm talking to you
1071 2011-01-02 04:00:27 <jgarzik> xelister|DrUNk: drink more!
1072 2011-01-02 04:00:37 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|ok I TRANSFER TO luke-jr THEN
1073 2011-01-02 04:00:49 <luke-jr> xelister|DrUNk: I don't have one ☹
1074 2011-01-02 04:00:49 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Of course you have a choice. All goods are substitutes to the extent that they satisfy human wants.
1075 2011-01-02 04:00:51 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|luke-jr: I send you -100 BTC for trying to  take advantage of poor users lol :D
1076 2011-01-02 04:00:52 <marioxcc> kiba: what do you base on?
1077 2011-01-02 04:00:56 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|bbl
1078 2011-01-02 04:00:56 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: or needs
1079 2011-01-02 04:01:01 <kiba> my own understanding
1080 2011-01-02 04:01:02 <jgarzik> marioxcc: ok
1081 2011-01-02 04:01:15 <xelister> DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|we need minut BTC transfers in next version, someone call satoshi lo
1082 2011-01-02 04:01:18 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Need are a subset of wants. A need is just a very highly ranked want.
1083 2011-01-02 04:01:41 <marioxcc> xelister|DrUNk: bitcoin is free software, you can adapt it to fit your needs
1084 2011-01-02 04:01:58 <marioxcc> kiba: the key is kept private to ensure you have control over bitcoins
1085 2011-01-02 04:02:19 <marioxcc> i don't see the connection
1086 2011-01-02 04:02:32 <kiba> see, if somebody have a copy of my private key, they can control mine and send money to theiraddress
1087 2011-01-02 04:02:43 <marioxcc> what then?
1088 2011-01-02 04:02:54 <marioxcc> how do that relates to the issue information is not property?
1089 2011-01-02 04:03:07 <kiba> I thought we're discussing how bitcoin are property
1090 2011-01-02 04:03:15 <marioxcc> i wasn't
1091 2011-01-02 04:03:24 <marioxcc> i just said bitcoins are property because you can only spend them once
1092 2011-01-02 04:03:31 <marioxcc> lol
1093 2011-01-02 04:03:36 * kiba don't understand
1094 2011-01-02 04:03:38 <luke-jr> I still say it's a service
1095 2011-01-02 04:03:47 <Diablo-D3> its both.
1096 2011-01-02 04:03:51 <Diablo-D3> its a service to manage property
1097 2011-01-02 04:04:00 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i don't think bitcoins are a service
1098 2011-01-02 04:04:08 <marioxcc> i would say the bitcoin network is a service
1099 2011-01-02 04:04:11 <marioxcc> not the bitcoins themselves
1100 2011-01-02 04:04:19 <kiba> it's a service in the sense that somebody need to process the transaction
1101 2011-01-02 04:04:22 <luke-jr> marioxcc: what you're bartering with is the service of signing a token over
1102 2011-01-02 04:04:32 <AAA_awright> I consider services a subset of goods, the difference being that services are a person's rented out time, goods are everything else
1103 2011-01-02 04:04:34 <jgarzik> I guess satoshi is on a long vacation?
1104 2011-01-02 04:04:38 <jgarzik> No software updates for a while.
1105 2011-01-02 04:04:40 <kiba> jgarzik: or he's dead
1106 2011-01-02 04:04:43 <AAA_awright> I just say "Goods" to include services anymore
1107 2011-01-02 04:04:53 <kiba> assassinated by serect CIA agents
1108 2011-01-02 04:04:54 <marioxcc> AAA_awright: well, goods can be stored
1109 2011-01-02 04:04:57 <marioxcc> services cant'
1110 2011-01-02 04:05:01 <marioxcc> services are ephimeral
1111 2011-01-02 04:05:21 <AAA_awright> marioxcc: Right, services are temporal
1112 2011-01-02 04:05:25 <AAA_awright> Goods are physical
1113 2011-01-02 04:05:33 <jgarzik> last post Dec 12.  "last active" Dec 13.
1114 2011-01-02 04:05:36 <AAA_awright> Goods also lose their value too
1115 2011-01-02 04:05:37 <kiba> is Satoshi usually on a long vacation when Decemember come around?
1116 2011-01-02 04:05:59 <kiba> Satoshi is a human being. He have lives.
1117 2011-01-02 04:06:04 <AAA_awright> Try saving for retirement with the world's largest beef storehouse, or something
1118 2011-01-02 04:06:07 <kiba> even if it is a very serect live
1119 2011-01-02 04:06:22 <AAA_awright> <kiba> assassinated by serect CIA agents
1120 2011-01-02 04:06:34 <Animeking> hmm
1121 2011-01-02 04:06:38 <AAA_awright> He lived in China and they caught on
1122 2011-01-02 04:06:43 <Animeking> i wonder if there is a way to decrease my GPUs temp
1123 2011-01-02 04:06:47 <Animeking> a tempature of 80 degrees
1124 2011-01-02 04:06:50 lolcat has joined
1125 2011-01-02 04:06:51 <Animeking> doesn't make me feel comfy
1126 2011-01-02 04:06:57 fabianhjr has joined
1127 2011-01-02 04:06:59 <marioxcc> Animeking: phase change cooling
1128 2011-01-02 04:07:02 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
1129 2011-01-02 04:07:07 <Animeking> phase change?
1130 2011-01-02 04:07:10 <marioxcc> or just raw liquid nitrogen
1131 2011-01-02 04:07:13 <Animeking> I'm running the fan at 80 RPM
1132 2011-01-02 04:07:15 <marioxcc> yeah, phase change
1133 2011-01-02 04:07:21 <marioxcc> thermodynamics, you know
1134 2011-01-02 04:07:26 <marioxcc> 80 RPM is very few
1135 2011-01-02 04:07:28 <lolcat> My fan is running at 2800rpm
1136 2011-01-02 04:07:37 <marioxcc> are you sure it's 80?
1137 2011-01-02 04:07:42 <marioxcc> you would barely see it spinning
1138 2011-01-02 04:07:46 <fabianhjr> lolcat: I got big ones that run at 800 RPM
1139 2011-01-02 04:07:52 <Animeking> 85%
1140 2011-01-02 04:07:53 <Animeking> it says
1141 2011-01-02 04:07:56 <marioxcc> oh
1142 2011-01-02 04:07:56 <nanotube> Animeking: cheaper solutions: clean your heatsink, use better thermal compound...
1143 2011-01-02 04:07:59 <marioxcc> 85% speed
1144 2011-01-02 04:08:02 <marioxcc> of maximun speed
1145 2011-01-02 04:08:05 <marioxcc> that's a different number
1146 2011-01-02 04:08:08 <Animeking> mmm
1147 2011-01-02 04:08:12 <fabianhjr> lol, it is.
1148 2011-01-02 04:08:13 <Animeking> it doesn't give exact RPM
1149 2011-01-02 04:08:25 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: i use an external squirred cage shaded pole fan
1150 2011-01-02 04:08:32 <lolcat> my computer is only 61C
1151 2011-01-02 04:08:34 <marioxcc> runs at 127 V AV
1152 2011-01-02 04:08:47 <Animeking> Like, is there any part of the CPU I can temporarily underclock
1153 2011-01-02 04:08:55 <Animeking> GPU
1154 2011-01-02 04:08:57 <fabianhjr> AV lol. Does it got an LCD display?
1155 2011-01-02 04:08:58 <marioxcc> Animeking: did you read your doccumentation?, maybe 80 are ok
1156 2011-01-02 04:09:11 <marioxcc> AC, sorry
1157 2011-01-02 04:09:14 <fabianhjr> Animeking: the memory.
1158 2011-01-02 04:09:26 <marioxcc> it's just a small non-computer fan
1159 2011-01-02 04:09:29 <Animeking> so lowering the memory clock is a good idea?
1160 2011-01-02 04:09:37 <AAA_awright> I'm having this debate with Drupal people, they think that all Drupal modules are derivative works of Drupal and therefore GPL licensed -_-
1161 2011-01-02 04:09:37 <AAA_awright> I published my module in the public domain WHAT NOW
1162 2011-01-02 04:09:46 <marioxcc> but much powewrfull than a computer fan (they're really crapy, < 1W power)
1163 2011-01-02 04:10:08 <fabianhjr> Does anyone know what happened with the Ripple Bitcoin thing?
1164 2011-01-02 04:10:16 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: ripple?
1165 2011-01-02 04:10:18 <kiba> I don't know what hpapens to it
1166 2011-01-02 04:10:24 <kiba> ripple is a credit thingy
1167 2011-01-02 04:10:37 <kiba> but very rarely people loan people money
1168 2011-01-02 04:10:46 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: yeah, someone post about integrating Bitcoins to ripple. It is a nice concept. let me get you the video.
1169 2011-01-02 04:10:57 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: i don't like videos
1170 2011-01-02 04:11:00 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: https://ripplepay.com/
1171 2011-01-02 04:11:02 <marioxcc> a paper is fine
1172 2011-01-02 04:11:10 <marioxcc> well, let's see
1173 2011-01-02 04:11:17 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: there it is. The video, the paper, and the FAQ. xD
1174 2011-01-02 04:11:19 <marioxcc> oh no, flash BS
1175 2011-01-02 04:13:25 * kiba agrees with marioxcc that video is to be hated
1176 2011-01-02 04:13:38 <fabianhjr> AFK
1177 2011-01-02 04:13:40 <marioxcc> kiba: i didn't ever saw the video itself
1178 2011-01-02 04:13:47 <marioxcc> do you mean the video _format_?
1179 2011-01-02 04:14:04 <kiba> no, video are to be hated. Texts are better.
1180 2011-01-02 04:14:10 <marioxcc> :)
1181 2011-01-02 04:14:20 <marioxcc> yes, i think that
1182 2011-01-02 04:15:52 <BoBeR> hey guise
1183 2011-01-02 04:16:36 <BoBeR> kiba if video is hated why the large bounty?
1184 2011-01-02 04:17:06 <kiba> BoBeR: because it achevied an objective. And my video is hated is merely my preference
1185 2011-01-02 04:17:09 <marioxcc> BoBeR: he said "_to be_ harted"
1186 2011-01-02 04:17:11 <kiba> I don't care if other people like video
1187 2011-01-02 04:17:24 <kiba> or hate video
1188 2011-01-02 04:17:26 <kiba> I hate video
1189 2011-01-02 04:17:30 <kiba> personally
1190 2011-01-02 04:17:38 <BoBeR> i see
1191 2011-01-02 04:17:38 <marioxcc> why do you?
1192 2011-01-02 04:17:44 * BoBeR Playing: Streetlight Manifesto - Skyscraper
1193 2011-01-02 04:17:44 <marioxcc> jut wondering
1194 2011-01-02 04:18:06 <kiba> because I can understand better with words than video
1195 2011-01-02 04:18:38 <marioxcc> yes
1196 2011-01-02 04:18:48 <marioxcc> that's also true if you aren't a native english speaker
1197 2011-01-02 04:19:05 <marioxcc> like me
1198 2011-01-02 04:19:09 <BoBeR> google translate deosnt work with videos
1199 2011-01-02 04:19:45 <marioxcc> i don't like automated translations
1200 2011-01-02 04:20:19 <BoBeR> its better for text i mean
1201 2011-01-02 04:20:38 <kiba> automated translations are not very nice but sometime it's the only information that allows us to understand
1202 2011-01-02 04:20:45 <marioxcc> well, yes but
1203 2011-01-02 04:20:52 <marioxcc> i know english (written) and spanish
1204 2011-01-02 04:21:06 <marioxcc> that's enough for almost everything i need
1205 2011-01-02 04:21:07 <marioxcc> :)
1206 2011-01-02 04:21:10 noagendamarket has joined
1207 2011-01-02 04:25:50 xelister has quit (DrUNk!~xe@ip-1-141.gemini.net.pl|Remote host closed the connection)
1208 2011-01-02 04:31:18 <marioxcc> jgarzik: here are my changes: http://200.56.150.72:8080/software/cpuminer.git/
1209 2011-01-02 04:31:33 <marioxcc> if you are interested in them
1210 2011-01-02 04:31:40 <marioxcc> nothing extraordinary of course, only my 2 cents
1211 2011-01-02 04:31:57 james_ has joined
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1213 2011-01-02 04:37:59 Sami345 has joined
1214 2011-01-02 04:38:03 <Sami345> hi
1215 2011-01-02 04:38:06 <marioxcc> helllo
1216 2011-01-02 04:38:19 <Sami345> go you know if I am allowed to create a custom client?
1217 2011-01-02 04:38:27 <Sami345> *do
1218 2011-01-02 04:38:36 <luke-jr> of course?
1219 2011-01-02 04:38:52 <marioxcc> Sami345: i don't see why you wound't be
1220 2011-01-02 04:39:04 <marioxcc> the original bitcoin clientis free software, you're alloed to modify it too
1221 2011-01-02 04:39:19 <marioxcc> it may be less expensive to do so than to create one from scratch
1222 2011-01-02 04:39:29 <marioxcc> do you have something specific in mind? :)
1223 2011-01-02 04:39:32 <Sami345> doing some statics about network and maybe even use my GPU for computing :>
1224 2011-01-02 04:40:11 <Sami345> With OpenCL I could support a large amount of hardware
1225 2011-01-02 04:40:29 <marioxcc> Sami345: there is alredy free software for thath
1226 2011-01-02 04:40:31 <marioxcc> which is free in itself
1227 2011-01-02 04:40:33 <Sami345> :o
1228 2011-01-02 04:40:36 <marioxcc> but you need proprietary controllers
1229 2011-01-02 04:40:54 <Sami345> what is proprietary controllers
1230 2011-01-02 04:41:09 <marioxcc> please see http://www.gnu.org/
1231 2011-01-02 04:41:12 <marioxcc> for a definition of free software
1232 2011-01-02 04:41:19 <marioxcc> propreitary software is the negation of free software
1233 2011-01-02 04:41:28 <nanotube> Sami345: basically... you need the proprietary nvidia/ati graphics drivers, to use the opencl mining.
1234 2011-01-02 04:41:34 <Sami345> lol :D
1235 2011-01-02 04:41:36 <marioxcc> free software gives you the rights to use, copy, study and modify it to your needs
1236 2011-01-02 04:41:46 <Sami345> can you give the software name please?
1237 2011-01-02 04:42:16 <marioxcc> i don't suport such software
1238 2011-01-02 04:42:23 <marioxcc> because it have proprietary dependencies
1239 2011-01-02 04:42:25 <marioxcc> if you mean the GPU miner
1240 2011-01-02 04:42:30 <marioxcc> the CPU miner is available at
1241 2011-01-02 04:42:37 <marioxcc> https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer
1242 2011-01-02 04:42:52 <marioxcc> and I just published some changes in http://200.56.150.72:8080/software/cpuminer.git/
1243 2011-01-02 04:43:09 <Diablo-D3> heh
1244 2011-01-02 04:43:15 <marioxcc> note this thttpd instance has been set up just to request a pull
1245 2011-01-02 04:43:28 <marioxcc> it's not permanent (as the IP may make you think, of course)
1246 2011-01-02 04:43:28 <marioxcc> hehe
1247 2011-01-02 04:44:19 <Sami345> what I just discovered
1248 2011-01-02 04:44:32 <marioxcc> ?
1249 2011-01-02 04:44:32 <Sami345> Bitcoin is a very easy target for virus!
1250 2011-01-02 04:44:39 <marioxcc> virus?
1251 2011-01-02 04:44:54 <Sami345> It can just ready you account keys from file :(
1252 2011-01-02 04:44:58 <nanotube> Sami345: there are links to the various miners on the ,,pool page
1253 2011-01-02 04:44:59 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
1254 2011-01-02 04:45:00 <marioxcc> virus target the human body and other animals
1255 2011-01-02 04:45:17 <nanotube> Sami345: it's no worse than your bank account being target for a virus
1256 2011-01-02 04:45:48 <marioxcc> there isn't really "computer viruses"
1257 2011-01-02 04:46:07 <marioxcc> i prefer the term "malware"
1258 2011-01-02 04:46:15 <nanotube> marioxcc: a computer virus is a terminology in common use for malicious software.
1259 2011-01-02 04:46:23 <nanotube> marioxcc: i doubt you'll win this linguistic war. :P
1260 2011-01-02 04:46:31 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1261 2011-01-02 04:46:31 <marioxcc> nanotube: that don't makes it correct
1262 2011-01-02 04:46:38 <Sami345> nanotube, well at least I don't keep my bank account on a computer in file mybankaccout.txt
1263 2011-01-02 04:46:50 <marioxcc> just as the common description of the atom is the bohr's functional model
1264 2011-01-02 04:47:01 <nanotube> Sami345: but you do log in to your bank website from your computer. so you might as well.
1265 2011-01-02 04:47:01 <marioxcc> that don't makes it more real
1266 2011-01-02 04:47:15 <nanotube> marioxcc: they're both useful analogies.
1267 2011-01-02 04:47:29 <luke-jr> bank accounts are insured against fraud
1268 2011-01-02 04:47:33 <marioxcc> usefull, but misleading when takenth too further
1269 2011-01-02 04:47:37 <luke-jr> how much are bitcoin accounds insured?
1270 2011-01-02 04:47:48 <nanotube> luke-jr: you can go and buy insurance right now. nobody's stopping you.
1271 2011-01-02 04:47:57 <Sami345> nanotube, virus detectors don't care about program reading files, they care things like watching keyboard
1272 2011-01-02 04:48:00 <luke-jr> banks don't charge :P
1273 2011-01-02 04:48:20 <nanotube> luke-jr: oh they charge. just not directly. :)
1274 2011-01-02 04:48:29 <luke-jr> nanotube: they charge other people ☺
1275 2011-01-02 04:49:03 <marioxcc> Sami345: first
1276 2011-01-02 04:49:06 <nanotube> luke-jr: haha well, true.
1277 2011-01-02 04:49:12 <marioxcc> you should be kind of dumb to get a "virus"
1278 2011-01-02 04:49:17 <marioxcc> also, if you're so concerned
1279 2011-01-02 04:49:27 <luke-jr> marioxcc: not necessarily
1280 2011-01-02 04:49:29 <marioxcc> you can implement wallet-encrypting :)
1281 2011-01-02 04:49:36 <Sami345> how do I know for example those OpenCL miners are not a virus
1282 2011-01-02 04:49:41 <marioxcc> or pay someone of us to do so
1283 2011-01-02 04:49:46 <marioxcc> I personally would be glad to
1284 2011-01-02 04:49:47 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: well, mines written in Java
1285 2011-01-02 04:49:49 <luke-jr> Sami345: exactly
1286 2011-01-02 04:49:51 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: and its open source.
1287 2011-01-02 04:49:56 <Diablo-D3> _and you can compile it yourself_
1288 2011-01-02 04:49:58 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: the drivers are?
1289 2011-01-02 04:50:00 <marioxcc> Sami345: because you see the code
1290 2011-01-02 04:50:01 <marioxcc> duh,
1291 2011-01-02 04:50:03 <devon_hillard> is it possible to ask bitcoin.cz pool for more than one workload at the same time?
1292 2011-01-02 04:50:03 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: the drivers can be
1293 2011-01-02 04:50:15 <marioxcc> devon_hillard: "at same time"?
1294 2011-01-02 04:50:15 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: but if AMD's drivers are fucked, we have bigger things to worry about
1295 2011-01-02 04:50:24 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: mine does anyhow.
1296 2011-01-02 04:50:27 <nanotube> devon_hillard: yes. in fact, if you run a multithreaded miner, it will do just that.
1297 2011-01-02 04:50:32 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: its doing 3 per gpu
1298 2011-01-02 04:50:34 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: really? bigger than $$$?
1299 2011-01-02 04:50:38 <marioxcc> nanotube: not if its only one work fetcher
1300 2011-01-02 04:50:43 <devon_hillard> ah, I see
1301 2011-01-02 04:50:49 <marioxcc> request are serial in cpuminer for instance
1302 2011-01-02 04:50:55 <marioxcc> i could implement threaded request if need
1303 2011-01-02 04:50:59 <marioxcc> but i think it's worthless
1304 2011-01-02 04:51:02 <marioxcc> the queue model is working fine :)
1305 2011-01-02 04:51:33 <Diablo-D3> well
1306 2011-01-02 04:51:38 <Diablo-D3> I had a single fetch system setup
1307 2011-01-02 04:51:59 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, btw can you give me any real reason to switch from C++ to Java?
1308 2011-01-02 04:52:02 <Diablo-D3> but it basically fucked itself over because I didnt want to basically implement an entire sub-queued setup
1309 2011-01-02 04:52:08 <luke-jr> Sami345: NO, Java sucks
1310 2011-01-02 04:52:11 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: c++ is a disgusting pile of shit tha tneeds to die
1311 2011-01-02 04:52:14 <Diablo-D3> I refuse to use
1312 2011-01-02 04:52:16 <luke-jr> Sami345: but go ahead and swithc to D
1313 2011-01-02 04:52:18 <luke-jr> C*
1314 2011-01-02 04:52:23 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: i think the same of Java
1315 2011-01-02 04:52:24 <Diablo-D3> if you're going to fuck with c++, just use C
1316 2011-01-02 04:52:37 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: no one wants that slow ass patent bloatware
1317 2011-01-02 04:52:44 <Diablo-D3> c# is java--.
1318 2011-01-02 04:52:51 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: C, not C#
1319 2011-01-02 04:53:29 <Diablo-D3> oh
1320 2011-01-02 04:53:33 <Diablo-D3> I thought that was a # not a *
1321 2011-01-02 04:53:38 <Diablo-D3> small font is small
1322 2011-01-02 04:54:02 <Sami345> Can you be more accurate, why is C++ a disgusting pile of shit?
1323 2011-01-02 04:54:11 <luke-jr> Sami345: it's stdlib is kinda bloated
1324 2011-01-02 04:54:16 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: friend classes
1325 2011-01-02 04:54:20 <Diablo-D3> multiple inheritence
1326 2011-01-02 04:54:27 <Sami345> well, you don't have to use them
1327 2011-01-02 04:54:38 <Diablo-D3> templates give compiles headaches when trying to optimize
1328 2011-01-02 04:54:42 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: but thats the problem
1329 2011-01-02 04:54:44 <Diablo-D3> you CAN use them
1330 2011-01-02 04:54:47 <Diablo-D3> ergo someone already has
1331 2011-01-02 04:54:53 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Java is worse
1332 2011-01-02 04:54:54 <Diablo-D3> ergo they already fucked you over
1333 2011-01-02 04:54:57 <Diablo-D3> also, boost is shit
1334 2011-01-02 04:55:12 <luke-jr> templates are kinda the best way to do what they do
1335 2011-01-02 04:55:21 <Diablo-D3> not really
1336 2011-01-02 04:55:25 <Diablo-D3> if I wanted to use C macros, I would.
1337 2011-01-02 04:55:27 <Sami345> boost has a bad documentation, but very good library otherwise
1338 2011-01-02 04:55:34 <luke-jr> C macros are inferior to templates
1339 2011-01-02 04:55:49 <Diablo-D3> boost, internally, is a pile of unstable shit
1340 2011-01-02 04:56:23 <marioxcc> hey
1341 2011-01-02 04:56:30 <marioxcc> this is a stupid thinking
1342 2011-01-02 04:56:35 <marioxcc> C++ is better than C
1343 2011-01-02 04:56:41 <marioxcc> because C++ have X which C don'ts
1344 2011-01-02 04:56:42 <Diablo-D3> marioxcc: learn english.
1345 2011-01-02 04:56:47 <marioxcc> and you don't want to use it
1346 2011-01-02 04:57:14 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: my english is not as good as it should, i know
1347 2011-01-02 04:57:23 <marioxcc> but "learn english" won't make it better
1348 2011-01-02 04:57:32 <Sami345> C++0x comes with better stdlib
1349 2011-01-02 04:57:40 <marioxcc> if you have a specific suggestion I would be glad to see it :)
1350 2011-01-02 04:57:42 <Diablo-D3> 0x seems to do boost correctly
1351 2011-01-02 04:57:50 <Diablo-D3> which may lead, about 20 years from now, to a c++ that isnt shit
1352 2011-01-02 04:58:17 <luke-jr> Sami345: that's impossible
1353 2011-01-02 04:58:28 <Sami345> you can already turn C++Ox on up-to-date g++ compilers
1354 2011-01-02 04:58:29 <luke-jr> from the bloat issue perspective
1355 2011-01-02 05:00:35 Cusipzzz has quit ()
1356 2011-01-02 05:04:11 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, how to run your thing on windows
1357 2011-01-02 05:04:32 <Sami345> I tried java -jar
1358 2011-01-02 05:04:37 <devon_hillard> wooh, 125 shares block and I missed it :(
1359 2011-01-02 05:04:46 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: read the thread
1360 2011-01-02 05:04:49 <Diablo-D3> the instructions are at the top
1361 2011-01-02 05:05:27 scibotic has joined
1362 2011-01-02 05:05:54 <devon_hillard> <luke-jr> C macros are inferior to templates
1363 2011-01-02 05:06:04 <devon_hillard> it really depends on the application
1364 2011-01-02 05:06:11 <marioxcc> nah
1365 2011-01-02 05:06:17 <marioxcc> lisp macros beat both :)
1366 2011-01-02 05:06:33 <devon_hillard> actually, C macros is a functional language of sorts :)
1367 2011-01-02 05:06:49 <marioxcc> sure
1368 2011-01-02 05:07:04 <marioxcc> some people use it for things other than C
1369 2011-01-02 05:07:09 <marioxcc> i prefer M4
1370 2011-01-02 05:07:12 <marioxcc> they're much more complete
1371 2011-01-02 05:07:25 <devon_hillard> M4?
1372 2011-01-02 05:07:27 <marioxcc> and turing-complete with no pain (explit loop and so)
1373 2011-01-02 05:07:29 <marioxcc> yes
1374 2011-01-02 05:07:33 <marioxcc> haven't you heard of M4?
1375 2011-01-02 05:07:36 <devon_hillard> no
1376 2011-01-02 05:07:45 <marioxcc> autoconf uses M4
1377 2011-01-02 05:07:48 <marioxcc> it's a macrolanguage
1378 2011-01-02 05:07:49 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, there is no .sh-file for windows
1379 2011-01-02 05:07:58 <Sami345> just for Linux, Solaris and OSX
1380 2011-01-02 05:08:04 <marioxcc> Macro
1381 2011-01-02 05:08:08 <marioxcc> M4
1382 2011-01-02 05:08:13 <marioxcc> ;)
1383 2011-01-02 05:08:36 BoBeR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1384 2011-01-02 05:08:41 <devon_hillard> ah, ok :)
1385 2011-01-02 05:09:05 <devon_hillard> well, as a hobby I made a brainfuck compiler for XSLT
1386 2011-01-02 05:09:14 <nanotube> Sami345: maybe a .bat file?
1387 2011-01-02 05:09:19 <marioxcc> devon_hillard: hehe, great
1388 2011-01-02 05:09:21 <Sami345> nope
1389 2011-01-02 05:09:34 <devon_hillard> sadly, most browsers have a low recursion limit (around 100)
1390 2011-01-02 05:09:50 <marioxcc> what is XSLT?
1391 2011-01-02 05:09:51 <devon_hillard> for their XSLT processors
1392 2011-01-02 05:10:02 <marioxcc> what is that?
1393 2011-01-02 05:10:14 <devon_hillard> xml stylesheet language transform
1394 2011-01-02 05:10:25 <marioxcc> ok
1395 2011-01-02 05:10:31 <devon_hillard> it transforms xml into html, xml or other text
1396 2011-01-02 05:10:38 <marioxcc> ok
1397 2011-01-02 05:10:44 <marioxcc> i don't like xml too much
1398 2011-01-02 05:10:47 <marioxcc> it's so rendundant
1399 2011-01-02 05:11:03 <Sami345> YAML for the victory \o/
1400 2011-01-02 05:11:19 <marioxcc> yet another macro language
1401 2011-01-02 05:11:21 <marioxcc> lol
1402 2011-01-02 05:11:26 <devon_hillard> so XSLT is Turing-complete with a lot of pain
1403 2011-01-02 05:11:27 <Sami345> markup?
1404 2011-01-02 05:11:41 <marioxcc> devon_hillard: :)
1405 2011-01-02 05:12:11 <devon_hillard> now that I think of it, that may be the only server-side browser language, apart from javascript
1406 2011-01-02 05:12:53 <devon_hillard> s/server-side/client-side/
1407 2011-01-02 05:13:29 <marioxcc> devon_hillard: what about java, flash and other slimilar BS?
1408 2011-01-02 05:14:15 <devon_hillard> yeah, but those are not run by the browser
1409 2011-01-02 05:14:23 <devon_hillard> you need a third-party runtime
1410 2011-01-02 05:14:30 <marioxcc> true
1411 2011-01-02 05:14:31 xelister has joined
1412 2011-01-02 05:14:41 <luke-jr> why is the bitcoin cap so low?
1413 2011-01-02 05:14:47 <marioxcc> cap?
1414 2011-01-02 05:15:06 <luke-jr> 21mil or whatever
1415 2011-01-02 05:15:27 <marioxcc> i think only satoshi knows for sure
1416 2011-01-02 05:15:36 <marioxcc> but that means
1417 2011-01-02 05:15:38 <marioxcc> in a future
1418 2011-01-02 05:15:45 <marioxcc> a BTC will be worth several dollars
1419 2011-01-02 05:15:53 <marioxcc> so maybe it has been done for pride
1420 2011-01-02 05:15:57 <devon_hillard> luke-jr: any divisible money supply is adequate to support an economy
1421 2011-01-02 05:15:59 <xelister> kiba: maybe Satoshi got ikea'd
1422 2011-01-02 05:16:27 <xelister> btw. ATI sucks cocks. Blaaaarghh arghhhhhhh why it re-enabled fucking crossfire shit?! Blaaaaaaaargh
1423 2011-01-02 05:16:50 <devon_hillard> luke-jr: there are actually maximum 2.1bn tradeable tokens (currently 400M) in the bitcoin network
1424 2011-01-02 05:17:01 <devon_hillard> 0.01 being the maximum division currently
1425 2011-01-02 05:17:05 <marioxcc> devon_hillard: 400M?
1426 2011-01-02 05:17:14 <marioxcc> that's well above the maximum i think (21M)
1427 2011-01-02 05:17:36 <devon_hillard> considering the tradeable tokens, one BTC having 100 tradeable divisions
1428 2011-01-02 05:17:57 <marioxcc> hey
1429 2011-01-02 05:18:06 <marioxcc> it is much more than 100
1430 2011-01-02 05:18:21 <devon_hillard> yeah, but currently it only works with 2 decimals
1431 2011-01-02 05:18:45 <marioxcc> no really
1432 2011-01-02 05:19:09 <devon_hillard> you can send 0.001, but there would be a 0.001 transaction fee, AFAIK
1433 2011-01-02 05:19:21 <devon_hillard> *0.01 transaction fee*
1434 2011-01-02 05:19:42 <xelister> btw if I send  1.00001 then receiver gets of course exactly 1.00001 ?
1435 2011-01-02 05:19:59 <marioxcc> xelister: i think it does
1436 2011-01-02 05:20:08 <marioxcc> there was a sub-cent block i saw
1437 2011-01-02 05:20:13 <marioxcc> but i can't find it again
1438 2011-01-02 05:20:19 <marioxcc> sipa: have you the link?
1439 2011-01-02 05:21:09 <luke-jr> devon_hillard: is it infinitely divisible?
1440 2011-01-02 05:21:32 <devon_hillard> luke-jr, no, but currently sufficient for all practical purposes
1441 2011-01-02 05:21:33 <xelister> luke-jr: to like 0.0000001 afair
1442 2011-01-02 05:22:04 <luke-jr> devon_hillard: 2.1bn is less than 1 per human alive right now IIRC
1443 2011-01-02 05:22:11 <marioxcc> xelister: it think it is 10X that
1444 2011-01-02 05:22:17 <marioxcc> 8 decimal places
1445 2011-01-02 05:22:21 <marioxcc> 0.00000001
1446 2011-01-02 05:22:24 <luke-jr> why decimal? -.-
1447 2011-01-02 05:22:36 <devon_hillard> luke-jr: currently, the total BTC supply has an exchange rate of about $1M
1448 2011-01-02 05:22:37 <marioxcc> luke-jr: what would you like it to be?
1449 2011-01-02 05:22:45 <marioxcc> base i?
1450 2011-01-02 05:22:53 <luke-jr> marioxcc: some power of 2
1451 2011-01-02 05:22:56 <marioxcc> luke-jr: what for?
1452 2011-01-02 05:23:08 <luke-jr> easier to work with
1453 2011-01-02 05:23:15 <marioxcc> for whom?
1454 2011-01-02 05:23:18 <nanotube> he wants to keep the plebes away :)
1455 2011-01-02 05:23:19 <luke-jr> everyone
1456 2011-01-02 05:23:23 <marioxcc> luke-jr: no
1457 2011-01-02 05:23:26 <marioxcc> everyone uses decimal
1458 2011-01-02 05:23:30 <marioxcc> only computer uses binary
1459 2011-01-02 05:23:40 <luke-jr> doesn't matter what everyone uses
1460 2011-01-02 05:23:41 <marioxcc> computers are our servants, not our masters
1461 2011-01-02 05:23:50 <luke-jr> binary is still easier, even for humans
1462 2011-01-02 05:24:16 <marioxcc> maybe if you learn binary since you're a little baby
1463 2011-01-02 05:24:19 <luke-jr> humans can naturally work with powers of 2
1464 2011-01-02 05:24:19 <marioxcc> but most we have learned decimal
1465 2011-01-02 05:24:21 <luke-jr> not 10
1466 2011-01-02 05:24:27 <marioxcc> and that's not going to change in the near future
1467 2011-01-02 05:24:32 <marioxcc> social inertia
1468 2011-01-02 05:24:34 <luke-jr> even for someone who has grown up with decimal
1469 2011-01-02 05:24:48 <devon_hillard> <marioxcc> computers will become our equals or our masters (if we enslave them) :p
1470 2011-01-02 05:25:05 <luke-jr> look at your grocery stores
1471 2011-01-02 05:25:13 <marioxcc> devon_hillard: uh?
1472 2011-01-02 05:25:13 <luke-jr> "4 for $1" items for example
1473 2011-01-02 05:25:22 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i rarely see that
1474 2011-01-02 05:25:24 <joe_1> luke if power of 2 was so easy we would have seen it in history
1475 2011-01-02 05:25:29 <marioxcc> look money
1476 2011-01-02 05:25:31 <marioxcc> 1
1477 2011-01-02 05:25:31 <marioxcc> 2
1478 2011-01-02 05:25:32 <marioxcc> 5
1479 2011-01-02 05:25:35 <marioxcc> that's the series
1480 2011-01-02 05:25:44 <marioxcc> the factors of 10
1481 2011-01-02 05:26:20 <luke-jr> marioxcc: people can't naturally divide by 5 or 10
1482 2011-01-02 05:26:20 <marioxcc> i agree
1483 2011-01-02 05:26:24 <marioxcc> 10 is far from optimal
1484 2011-01-02 05:26:42 <marioxcc> but society works that way
1485 2011-01-02 05:26:45 <marioxcc> it is social inertia
1486 2011-01-02 05:26:47 <joe_1> we have 10 fingers
1487 2011-01-02 05:26:54 <luke-jr> society naturally tries to divide by 2 and powers of 4
1488 2011-01-02 05:26:55 <luke-jr> 2*
1489 2011-01-02 05:26:58 <luke-jr> joe_1: irrelevant
1490 2011-01-02 05:26:58 <marioxcc> joe_1: we don't count with the fingers
1491 2011-01-02 05:27:01 <marioxcc> that don't matters
1492 2011-01-02 05:27:05 <joe_1> i do
1493 2011-01-02 05:27:15 <marioxcc> joe_1: why do you?
1494 2011-01-02 05:27:17 <luke-jr> joe_1: binary is better suited for finger counting too, in any case
1495 2011-01-02 05:27:25 <marioxcc> yes, I agree
1496 2011-01-02 05:27:35 <marioxcc> 1024 combinations with the fingers
1497 2011-01-02 05:28:00 <afed> mining is hard work
1498 2011-01-02 05:28:09 <luke-jr> my children are all learning Tonal numbers
1499 2011-01-02 05:28:12 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1500 2011-01-02 05:28:19 <joe_1> it takes longer to say a number in binary
1501 2011-01-02 05:28:20 james has joined
1502 2011-01-02 05:28:35 <luke-jr> joe_1: I'm not advocating binary ☺
1503 2011-01-02 05:28:44 <fabianhjr> Good Night
1504 2011-01-02 05:28:47 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1505 2011-01-02 05:28:47 james is now known as Guest5583
1506 2011-01-02 05:28:49 <marioxcc> joe_1: no if you use a binary friendly nomeclature
1507 2011-01-02 05:29:05 <marioxcc> if the society were to use binary
1508 2011-01-02 05:29:10 <marioxcc> we wouldn't say zero an done
1509 2011-01-02 05:29:12 <marioxcc> *one
1510 2011-01-02 05:29:16 <marioxcc> but rather shorter sounds
1511 2011-01-02 05:29:22 <marioxcc> or maybe group the digits
1512 2011-01-02 05:29:29 <luke-jr> Tonal digits use a single syllable per
1513 2011-01-02 05:29:30 <marioxcc> like if it were hexadecimal
1514 2011-01-02 05:29:46 <luke-jr> an, de, ti, go, su, by, ra, me, ni, ko, hu, vy, la, po, fy, ton
1515 2011-01-02 05:30:05 <marioxcc> exactly
1516 2011-01-02 05:30:35 <joe_1> no offense but if your children go to school and talk those numbres they're going to get beat up. it sounds interesting to you and me, but...
1517 2011-01-02 05:30:50 <luke-jr> I am ton-ni (1) years old
1518 2011-01-02 05:30:56 <nanotube> luke-jr: "ra, me, n"  i'm starting to like this tonal system. :)
1519 2011-01-02 05:30:56 <luke-jr> joe_1: school is for idiots
1520 2011-01-02 05:31:18 <marioxcc> hehe
1521 2011-01-02 05:31:26 <marioxcc> well, really school is a sumoptimal method of learning
1522 2011-01-02 05:31:32 <marioxcc> but that how society works again
1523 2011-01-02 05:31:41 <marioxcc> you will later need that stupid paper
1524 2011-01-02 05:31:42 <luke-jr> secular society perhaps
1525 2011-01-02 05:31:47 <joe_1> how does it work
1526 2011-01-02 05:31:48 <marioxcc> secular?
1527 2011-01-02 05:31:49 <joe_1> ton ni is what
1528 2011-01-02 05:32:02 <marioxcc> joe_1: it's like any other positional numbering system
1529 2011-01-02 05:32:13 <luke-jr> joe_1: ton = 10; ni = ; ton-ni = 1
1530 2011-01-02 05:32:27 <marioxcc> luke-jr: are you writting ascii?
1531 2011-01-02 05:32:30 <luke-jr> marioxcc: no
1532 2011-01-02 05:32:33 * MT`AwAy sees "ni = \u23d3"
1533 2011-01-02 05:32:38 <marioxcc> your ni = ? and ton-ni don't write
1534 2011-01-02 05:32:43 <marioxcc> *don't display
1535 2011-01-02 05:32:44 <marioxcc> here
1536 2011-01-02 05:32:44 <luke-jr> ASCII doesn't encode  to 
1537 2011-01-02 05:32:48 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1538 2011-01-02 05:32:55 <marioxcc> I only see boxes
1539 2011-01-02 05:32:58 <joe_1> boxes here
1540 2011-01-02 05:32:59 <marioxcc> my font don't haves your characters
1541 2011-01-02 05:33:02 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: your unicode chars are missing from my font
1542 2011-01-02 05:33:10 <marioxcc> please romanize whatever you're trying to say
1543 2011-01-02 05:33:11 <Sami345> I wonder If I could with 50 BC buy enough processor power to get 50 BC
1544 2011-01-02 05:33:33 <luke-jr> ton = 10; ni = 9; ton-ni = 19
1545 2011-01-02 05:33:34 <Diablo-D3> [12:04:53] <Sami345> Diablo-D3, there is no .sh-file for windows
1546 2011-01-02 05:33:35 <MT`AwAy> Sami345: no, because cpu power wouldn't generate 50 BTC
1547 2011-01-02 05:33:35 <Diablo-D3> read the thread.
1548 2011-01-02 05:33:37 <lucky> Sami345, well, its roughl $20 USD, so not really.
1549 2011-01-02 05:33:39 <Diablo-D3> its in the op post
1550 2011-01-02 05:34:00 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: wtf did you use intead of 9 then?
1551 2011-01-02 05:34:03 <luke-jr> an=1 de=2 ti=3 go=4 su=5 by=6 ra=7 me=8 ni=9 ko=a hu=b vy=c la=d po=e fy=f ton=10
1552 2011-01-02 05:34:09 <lucky> with 300 BC you could buy a GPU powerful enough to reasonably crunch away.
1553 2011-01-02 05:34:10 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: the Tonal character
1554 2011-01-02 05:34:10 HarryS has quit (Quit: Äddi)
1555 2011-01-02 05:34:20 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, wich thread?
1556 2011-01-02 05:34:21 <marioxcc> luke-jr: what did happened to the 0?
1557 2011-01-02 05:34:26 <luke-jr> marioxcc: noll
1558 2011-01-02 05:34:28 <joe_1> that's base 16 not base 2
1559 2011-01-02 05:34:33 <luke-jr> joe_1: 16 is a power of 2
1560 2011-01-02 05:34:40 <marioxcc> joe_1: there isn't a real difference
1561 2011-01-02 05:34:45 <marioxcc> just group the digits
1562 2011-01-02 05:34:48 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1563 2011-01-02 05:34:48 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: the diablo miner thread!
1564 2011-01-02 05:35:03 <joe_1> so tonal is hex
1565 2011-01-02 05:35:14 <luke-jr> joe_1: except usable for everyday numbers
1566 2011-01-02 05:35:16 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: thats what you get when you don't include a README for these kind of users ;-)
1567 2011-01-02 05:35:27 <Diablo-D3> I dont really support windows users.
1568 2011-01-02 05:35:34 <Diablo-D3> it works, but meh
1569 2011-01-02 05:35:37 <Diablo-D3> linux mines faster
1570 2011-01-02 05:35:48 <Sami345> oh
1571 2011-01-02 05:36:00 <Sami345> I thought it was for  NVidia hardware :D
1572 2011-01-02 05:36:21 <marioxcc> you CAN install proprietary drivers in GNU/Linux
1573 2011-01-02 05:36:22 <luke-jr> http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/tonal-system/10991091
1574 2011-01-02 05:36:32 <marioxcc> but you loss the point, which is computing freedom
1575 2011-01-02 05:36:33 <luke-jr> marioxcc: then it's no longer Linux, and non-free
1576 2011-01-02 05:36:37 <luke-jr> marioxcc:  not to mention illegal
1577 2011-01-02 05:36:46 <luke-jr> well, supporting of illegal copying
1578 2011-01-02 05:36:50 <marioxcc> luke-jr: ???
1579 2011-01-02 05:36:53 <marioxcc> I use linux-libre
1580 2011-01-02 05:37:09 <marioxcc> http://www.fsfla.org/svnwiki/selibre/linux-libre/
1581 2011-01-02 05:37:15 <lucky> iwasn'taware the point of gnu/linux was computing freedom
1582 2011-01-02 05:37:16 <luke-jr> marioxcc: just saying… nVidia's proprietary Linux derivative isn't really Linux anymore
1583 2011-01-02 05:37:26 <joe_1> it's only illegal if you sell it
1584 2011-01-02 05:37:30 <luke-jr> joe_1: wrong
1585 2011-01-02 05:37:36 <luke-jr> joe_1: copyright doesn't care if you charge or not
1586 2011-01-02 05:37:38 <joe_1> nobody here cares about the law anyway
1587 2011-01-02 05:37:41 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i don't say it is linux
1588 2011-01-02 05:37:49 <lucky> the GPL doesn't apply if you don't distribute.
1589 2011-01-02 05:37:54 <Sami345> Can't connect to bitcoin
1590 2011-01-02 05:37:56 <luke-jr> joe_1: anyone who cares about free software usually does
1591 2011-01-02 05:37:57 <Sami345> why is this
1592 2011-01-02 05:38:01 <luke-jr> lucky: nVidia distributes.
1593 2011-01-02 05:38:07 <lucky> no they do not.
1594 2011-01-02 05:38:11 <joe_1> good point
1595 2011-01-02 05:38:19 <lucky> They distribute a binary blob which you load into your kernel.
1596 2011-01-02 05:38:24 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, wow my graphics card is loud
1597 2011-01-02 05:38:29 <luke-jr> lucky: they also distribute a derived work of Linux with it
1598 2011-01-02 05:38:29 <marioxcc> linus don't seems to care about proprietary derivate works of linux
1599 2011-01-02 05:38:33 <lucky> said blob contains no Linux kernel code.
1600 2011-01-02 05:38:33 <marioxcc> he say they're not
1601 2011-01-02 05:38:37 <Sami345> but it can't connect
1602 2011-01-02 05:38:41 <luke-jr> marioxcc: Linus is an idiot -.-
1603 2011-01-02 05:38:42 <Sami345> why
1604 2011-01-02 05:39:05 <marioxcc> luke-jr: it is, but he's the head of the linux development
1605 2011-01-02 05:39:21 <Sami345> fun fact: my mothers friend has studiet in same class with Linus
1606 2011-01-02 05:39:23 <luke-jr> marioxcc: I wish someone else with copyright would just sue despite him
1607 2011-01-02 05:39:28 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: stock hsf are loud often
1608 2011-01-02 05:39:42 <marioxcc> luke-jr: likley, copyright is getting more agressive
1609 2011-01-02 05:39:45 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, why this says Can't connect
1610 2011-01-02 05:39:51 <marioxcc> that's a pity, on the other side :(
1611 2011-01-02 05:39:53 <Diablo-D3> because you didnt read the thread.
1612 2011-01-02 05:39:56 <lucky> Ah, see, they use an LGPL intermediate API
1613 2011-01-02 05:39:58 <Sami345> Connection refuseD: connect
1614 2011-01-02 05:40:05 <luke-jr> lucky: no
1615 2011-01-02 05:40:12 <luke-jr> lucky: Linux is GPL. GPL isn't compatible with LGPL
1616 2011-01-02 05:40:22 <Diablo-D3> depends which way
1617 2011-01-02 05:40:26 <marioxcc> well
1618 2011-01-02 05:40:27 <Diablo-D3> lgpl links to gpl fine
1619 2011-01-02 05:40:33 <marioxcc> you can make a derivate work
1620 2011-01-02 05:40:33 <lucky> luke-jr, that's also false.
1621 2011-01-02 05:40:37 <marioxcc> from a LGPL work
1622 2011-01-02 05:40:41 <marioxcc> and put it under the GNU GPL
1623 2011-01-02 05:40:41 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: GPL has the same terms for either way
1624 2011-01-02 05:40:46 <marioxcc> the other way is not true
1625 2011-01-02 05:41:04 <lucky> and again, the GPL is not applicable if you don't redistribute the product
1626 2011-01-02 05:41:11 <lucky> see ZFS Linux kernel module, for example.
1627 2011-01-02 05:41:15 <luke-jr> lucky: also, in any case, derivative works must always be the same license. not merely compatible.
1628 2011-01-02 05:41:25 <lucky> luke-jr, there are no distributed derivations.
1629 2011-01-02 05:41:29 <luke-jr> there are
1630 2011-01-02 05:41:38 <lucky> I don't see NVIDIA shipping a linux kernel with the drivers integrated.
1631 2011-01-02 05:41:38 <luke-jr> it is impsosible to make a kernel-mode driver for Linux, that is not a derived work
1632 2011-01-02 05:41:43 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yeah
1633 2011-01-02 05:41:48 <Diablo-D3> lgpl libs are common
1634 2011-01-02 05:42:00 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
1635 2011-01-02 05:42:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 100625 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 174 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 0 hours, 36 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 16169.28541041
1636 2011-01-02 05:42:03 <marioxcc> luke-jr: but linus say they're not
1637 2011-01-02 05:42:12 <marioxcc> he probably know they are
1638 2011-01-02 05:42:13 <lucky> luke-jr, I disagree, writing to an APIs is not a derivative work
1639 2011-01-02 05:42:13 <luke-jr> marioxcc: he's not the judge
1640 2011-01-02 05:42:16 <marioxcc> but don't care
1641 2011-01-02 05:42:23 <marioxcc> luke-jr: but he is the one in charge
1642 2011-01-02 05:42:25 <luke-jr> lucky: Linux has no such driver API
1643 2011-01-02 05:42:26 <marioxcc> i don't agree with linux
1644 2011-01-02 05:42:28 <marioxcc> *linus
1645 2011-01-02 05:42:30 <luke-jr> lucky: the only API Linux has, is for userland
1646 2011-01-02 05:42:31 <marioxcc> i don't like linus
1647 2011-01-02 05:42:37 <lucky> luke-jr, wrong.
1648 2011-01-02 05:42:41 <marioxcc> but if he don't wants to enforce the GNU GPL of linux, who will do?
1649 2011-01-02 05:42:49 BCBot has joined
1650 2011-01-02 05:42:51 <lucky> luke-jr, calling a function, etc. is an API
1651 2011-01-02 05:42:53 <marioxcc> maybe other contributors, if they hold the copyright too
1652 2011-01-02 05:43:17 <lucky> luke-jr, it's entirely possible to enter a binary at any point etc.
1653 2011-01-02 05:43:27 <luke-jr> lucky: no, an API requires documentation
1654 2011-01-02 05:43:29 <marioxcc> lucky: what's your point?
1655 2011-01-02 05:43:42 <lucky> knowledge of the internals of a binary informing your programming is not a derivative work.
1656 2011-01-02 05:43:49 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, wow this made my GPU hot
1657 2011-01-02 05:43:50 <lucky> only actually incorrporating parts of it is infringement.
1658 2011-01-02 05:43:57 <luke-jr> linking to those internals is
1659 2011-01-02 05:43:58 <Diablo-D3> yes, thats what it does.
1660 2011-01-02 05:43:59 <Sami345> like 80 degress celsius
1661 2011-01-02 05:44:03 <Diablo-D3> only mine with proper cooling
1662 2011-01-02 05:44:03 <marioxcc> luke-jr: you aren't the judge, sorry
1663 2011-01-02 05:44:04 <lucky> luke-jr, no it's not.
1664 2011-01-02 05:44:05 xelister_ has joined
1665 2011-01-02 05:44:05 <marioxcc> read the GNU GPL
1666 2011-01-02 05:44:10 <marioxcc> sorry
1667 2011-01-02 05:44:11 <marioxcc> i mean
1668 2011-01-02 05:44:13 <marioxcc> lucky
1669 2011-01-02 05:44:16 <marioxcc> the above thing
1670 2011-01-02 05:44:17 <lucky> Distributing code linked is a violation.
1671 2011-01-02 05:44:19 <marioxcc> hehe
1672 2011-01-02 05:44:28 <lucky> Doing it at home on your own is not distributing, and therefore not copyright infringement.
1673 2011-01-02 05:44:35 <luke-jr> lucky: it's infringement if you write a book that's sufficiently similar to Star Wars, even if you never mention anything explicit from the movies/books
1674 2011-01-02 05:44:42 <luke-jr> lucky: same applies here
1675 2011-01-02 05:44:46 <lucky> luke-jr, that's reimplementation.
1676 2011-01-02 05:44:48 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1677 2011-01-02 05:45:09 <marioxcc> lucky: but nvidia and these
1678 2011-01-02 05:45:12 <lucky> luke-jr, writing a story that only makes sense if include "insert dialogue of star  wars at 4 minutes, 31 seconds HERE" is not copyright infringement .
1679 2011-01-02 05:45:15 <marioxcc> do distribute they proprietary software
1680 2011-01-02 05:45:22 <lucky> but not linked to Linux.
1681 2011-01-02 05:45:22 <marioxcc> so the GPL do apply
1682 2011-01-02 05:45:35 <marioxcc> lucky: they don't need to be linked
1683 2011-01-02 05:45:38 <marioxcc> they're like plug ins
1684 2011-01-02 05:45:40 <lucky> They ship the modules separately, and then you insmod them on bootup.
1685 2011-01-02 05:45:44 <marioxcc> they're tightly coupled with linux
1686 2011-01-02 05:45:47 <Sami345> is 155000 khash/sec good?
1687 2011-01-02 05:45:52 <lucky> Sami345, yes.
1688 2011-01-02 05:45:55 <luke-jr> lucky: go hire an IP lawyer ☺
1689 2011-01-02 05:46:04 <marioxcc> ¿internet protocol?
1690 2011-01-02 05:46:05 <marioxcc> :P
1691 2011-01-02 05:46:16 <luke-jr> :P
1692 2011-01-02 05:46:17 <lucky> luke-jr, IANAL but I'm familiar with this concept, the GPL and copyright law in my country.
1693 2011-01-02 05:46:29 <luke-jr> lucky: well real lawyers all tend to disagree with you
1694 2011-01-02 05:46:36 <marioxcc> haha
1695 2011-01-02 05:46:50 <lucky> luke-jr, where? and why is Nvidia still standing, then?
1696 2011-01-02 05:47:01 xelister_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1697 2011-01-02 05:47:09 <luke-jr> lucky: nVidia is still standing probably because nobody wants to piss off Linus and 50% of the "Linux" user base
1698 2011-01-02 05:47:19 <marioxcc> lucky: because no linux developer seems to care about
1699 2011-01-02 05:47:21 <lucky> separately distributing code that is linked by the end-consumer into the final product is widely considered to be a big loophole to the GPL
1700 2011-01-02 05:47:23 <lucky> not a violation.
1701 2011-01-02 05:47:24 <luke-jr> and real lawyers don't make statements like that publicly :p
1702 2011-01-02 05:47:36 <nanotube> Sami345: see ,,(bc,wiki mining hardware comparison)
1703 2011-01-02 05:47:36 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison | Dec 26, 2010 ... Mining Hardware Comparison. From Bitcoin. Jump to: navigation, search. This page is a stub, you can help by expanding it. ...
1704 2011-01-02 05:47:49 <nanotube> Sami345: that page gives 'reference numbers' for the various gfx cards.
1705 2011-01-02 05:47:50 <Sami345> omg
1706 2011-01-02 05:47:54 <Sami345> it lows down
1707 2011-01-02 05:47:59 <Sami345> GPU overheating
1708 2011-01-02 05:48:05 <luke-jr> lucky: that description is based on a fundamental misunderstanding
1709 2011-01-02 05:48:07 <Sami345> 110 degree
1710 2011-01-02 05:48:14 <marioxcc> lucky: it is linked
1711 2011-01-02 05:48:20 <luke-jr> lucky: the law doesn't care about the technical 'ld' app
1712 2011-01-02 05:48:24 <marioxcc> else it woulnd't work as a module
1713 2011-01-02 05:48:36 <lucky> marioxcc, linked by *who* ?
1714 2011-01-02 05:48:46 <marioxcc> lucky: uh?
1715 2011-01-02 05:48:53 <marioxcc> it's linked because it uses linux tightly
1716 2011-01-02 05:48:57 <luke-jr> 'linking', as far as copyright is concerned, is the same regardless of what technical functions happen
1717 2011-01-02 05:48:59 <marioxcc> it calls function and gets called
1718 2011-01-02 05:49:06 <luke-jr> even if it's source code, it still links
1719 2011-01-02 05:49:10 <lucky> marioxcc, yes, but linking is not copyright infringement.
1720 2011-01-02 05:49:14 <lucky> redistributing the end product is.
1721 2011-01-02 05:49:16 <marioxcc> lucky: see the GPL
1722 2011-01-02 05:49:19 <marioxcc> see the GPL!!!
1723 2011-01-02 05:49:27 <luke-jr> see the GPL and hire a lawyer ☺
1724 2011-01-02 05:49:30 <lucky> marioxcc, you cannot commit copyright infringement without distribution.
1725 2011-01-02 05:49:37 <luke-jr> lucky: nVidia distributes.
1726 2011-01-02 05:49:44 <lucky> they don't distribute any Linux code.
1727 2011-01-02 05:49:47 <marioxcc> lucky: but nvidia does
1728 2011-01-02 05:49:52 <luke-jr> they distribute a derived work of Linux
1729 2011-01-02 05:49:55 <marioxcc> they do distribute their code
1730 2011-01-02 05:50:03 <marioxcc> in binary form
1731 2011-01-02 05:50:07 <lucky> Again, it's not a derivative work.
1732 2011-01-02 05:50:07 <marioxcc> else, how do you have it?
1733 2011-01-02 05:50:12 <luke-jr> marioxcc: no, the derived part is distributed as source
1734 2011-01-02 05:50:21 <luke-jr> lucky: if it wasn't, then it wouldn't work
1735 2011-01-02 05:50:28 <lucky> The derivative work, in a legal sense, is created when the module is loaded.
1736 2011-01-02 05:50:32 <luke-jr> lucky: NO
1737 2011-01-02 05:50:36 <lucky> luke-jr, Yes.
1738 2011-01-02 05:50:38 <luke-jr> the law does NOT care about loading
1739 2011-01-02 05:50:46 <luke-jr> loaded or unloaded, it is the same under the law
1740 2011-01-02 05:50:53 <marioxcc> for law technical issues don't matters
1741 2011-01-02 05:51:01 <lucky> marioxcc, hah, they matter very much.
1742 2011-01-02 05:51:02 <marioxcc> it is derived because it works with linux
1743 2011-01-02 05:51:03 <Sami345> my GPU only does now 1.17 because it's overheating
1744 2011-01-02 05:51:10 <Sami345> Wiki says 1.668
1745 2011-01-02 05:51:12 <marioxcc> it is a plug in
1746 2011-01-02 05:51:59 <Sami345> at least it is like x60 what my CPU does
1747 2011-01-02 05:52:12 <lucky> "In Galoob v. Nintendo the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals defined a derivative work as having "'form' or permanence" and noted that "the infringing work must incorporate a portion of the copyrighted work in some form"."
1748 2011-01-02 05:52:13 <nanotube> Sami345: might want to improve air flow...
1749 2011-01-02 05:52:35 <Sami345> nanotube, how exactly?
1750 2011-01-02 05:52:45 <luke-jr> lucky: which it does
1751 2011-01-02 05:52:55 <lucky> luke-jr, being informed by is not incorporating.
1752 2011-01-02 05:53:12 <nanotube> blow out the heatsink... get better fans... better thermal paste (these are the cheaper solutions... you could also go for water cooling and stuff)
1753 2011-01-02 05:53:22 <nanotube> Sami345: --^
1754 2011-01-02 05:53:26 <lucky> Again, how is this distinguishable from a proprietary application running on Linux?
1755 2011-01-02 05:53:36 <Sami345> nanotube, my every cooler is standart
1756 2011-01-02 05:53:38 <lucky> It executes certain instructions that hand over to the kernel, making the two one indistinguishable blob.
1757 2011-01-02 05:53:40 <luke-jr> lucky: syscalls are a documented/API
1758 2011-01-02 05:53:48 <lucky> luke-jr, so are the linux kernel internals.
1759 2011-01-02 05:53:50 <luke-jr> nope
1760 2011-01-02 05:53:51 <Sami345> CPU has a standart cooler with standart heatsink
1761 2011-01-02 05:53:55 <lucky> the source is publicly published.
1762 2011-01-02 05:54:01 <luke-jr> source isn't an API
1763 2011-01-02 05:54:03 <lucky> Is writing to an API book copyright infringement, then?
1764 2011-01-02 05:54:09 <luke-jr> if you base it on the source, you derive from it
1765 2011-01-02 05:54:10 <lucky> are you infringing on the specification?
1766 2011-01-02 05:54:32 <luke-jr> lucky: that's clean-room reverse engineering
1767 2011-01-02 05:54:43 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, does it try random solutions or in order
1768 2011-01-02 05:55:25 <lucky> I fail to see the distinction.  Linux source is publicly published, API specification is publicly published.  Said knowledge informs the programmer
1769 2011-01-02 05:55:32 <lucky> If one is a derivative, then the other is.
1770 2011-01-02 05:56:48 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1771 2011-01-02 05:57:04 <Sami345> it drops the speed from 850 to 157 MHz when overheat
1772 2011-01-02 05:58:05 <luke-jr> lucky: Linux is GPL
1773 2011-01-02 05:58:20 <lucky> I'm aware... what's your point?
1774 2011-01-02 05:58:23 <luke-jr> APIs are generally not viral like that
1775 2011-01-02 05:59:01 <lucky> luke-jr, The law isn't concerned with technical details, in marioxcc's words.
1776 2011-01-02 05:59:13 <lucky> luke-jr, many API specifications are published without *any* licenceing, they're just copyrighted.
1777 2011-01-02 05:59:33 <luke-jr> license isn't technical
1778 2011-01-02 05:59:37 <luke-jr> license is legal
1779 2011-01-02 06:01:06 <lucky> luke-jr, that's my point.
1780 2011-01-02 06:01:34 HarryS has joined
1781 2011-01-02 06:01:38 <lucky> luke-jr, You arguethat reading the linux source to be informed as how to write a program is derivation.  I would argue therefore that reading the MSDN documentation to write a windows program is copyright infringement.
1782 2011-01-02 06:02:03 <luke-jr> lucky: except the MSDN docs license allows you to do it
1783 2011-01-02 06:02:07 <lucky> No, it doesn't.
1784 2011-01-02 06:02:12 <lucky> It says nothing about it.
1785 2011-01-02 06:02:29 <lucky> "Microsoft won't sue you for patent infringement, we areon't liable if this stuff explodes and kills you"
1786 2011-01-02 06:02:36 <lucky> but nothing about "you can use this to make programs" actually.
1787 2011-01-02 06:03:08 acous has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1788 2011-01-02 06:03:59 <lfm> yes, compress first then encrypt
1789 2011-01-02 06:04:09 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, is it possible to make your program use less power from the computer
1790 2011-01-02 06:04:13 <lfm> bah wrong key again
1791 2011-01-02 06:05:19 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: not worht it
1792 2011-01-02 06:05:43 <Sami345> why not?
1793 2011-01-02 06:06:27 <lucky> luke-jr, e.g., The interest in clean-room reimplementation is not that such informed reverse engineering is illegal, so much as that it's a good defence against a claim of copyright infringement ("They actually just took our code and mangled it a bit then repackaged it!"
1794 2011-01-02 06:06:32 <lfm> sami345 just put some sleep() calls in
1795 2011-01-02 06:06:40 <lucky> regardless of the actual truth of that.
1796 2011-01-02 06:07:18 <luke-jr> "They actually just took our code and mangled it a bit then repackaged it!" /is/ true if you read the original code then rewrite it :p
1797 2011-01-02 06:08:38 <lucky> depends entirely on how close it is. ;p
1798 2011-01-02 06:08:58 <lucky> ideas are not copyrightable,
1799 2011-01-02 06:09:07 <lucky> only a specific expression in a fixed medium.
1800 2011-01-02 06:09:43 <Sami345> I have to learn how to compile a java program? :(
1801 2011-01-02 06:09:46 <lucky> reading an algorithm, understanding it then rewriting it isn't copyright infringement, even if the C code looks byte-for-byte identical.
1802 2011-01-02 06:10:08 <lucky> of course, you may have a hard time actually *proving* that in court
1803 2011-01-02 06:10:16 <lucky> (hence the interest in clean-room reimplementation as a defence)
1804 2011-01-02 06:10:48 <lfm> even clean room can infringe look-and-feel suit
1805 2011-01-02 06:11:41 <lucky> lfm, L&F cases tend to die a miserable death.
1806 2011-01-02 06:11:53 <lucky> provided you can afford to defend it ;p
1807 2011-01-02 06:12:02 <lfm> lotus won look&feel way back
1808 2011-01-02 06:12:02 <marioxcc> lucky: what's your basis?
1809 2011-01-02 06:12:11 <lucky> lfm, they lost it.
1810 2011-01-02 06:12:12 ArtForzZz has joined
1811 2011-01-02 06:12:21 <lucky> lfm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_v._Borland
1812 2011-01-02 06:12:32 <lfm> luck lotus vs paperback software
1813 2011-01-02 06:12:32 <lucky> lfm, "Lotus Development Corporation v. Borland International, Inc., 516 U.S. 233 (1996), is a United States Supreme Court case that tested the extent of software copyright. This case established that copyright does not extend to the text or layout of a program's menus."
1814 2011-01-02 06:13:30 <lucky> lfm, the borland case is more recent and presumably the precedent on the issue.
1815 2011-01-02 06:14:04 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1816 2011-01-02 06:14:04 <afed> i don't know if a newer case necessarily takes precedent over an older case
1817 2011-01-02 06:14:06 <afed> in common law
1818 2011-01-02 06:14:28 <lucky> afed, it does if the newer one made it all the way to the supreme court :p
1819 2011-01-02 06:14:55 <lucky> but this is all American law and so fairly irrelevant
1820 2011-01-02 06:14:58 <afed> is that how it works?
1821 2011-01-02 06:15:13 <lfm> vp=planner was a total clone of lotus. borland had native borland mode and macros that redifined it to look like lotus
1822 2011-01-02 06:15:20 <afed> i'd like to study more law
1823 2011-01-02 06:15:32 <afed> i'd like to study more calc too but ican't be bothered
1824 2011-01-02 06:16:50 <lucky> lfm, and it was held not to be infringing, which pretty much kills the whole l&f copyright case concept
1825 2011-01-02 06:17:11 Animeking has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net)
1826 2011-01-02 06:17:18 <lucky> afed, the precedent of a superior court is generally held over that of lower courts, yes.
1827 2011-01-02 06:17:30 <lucky> afed, and new precedents by the same level of a court overturn old case law.
1828 2011-01-02 06:17:33 <lfm> borland had to drop support for those macros iirc
1829 2011-01-02 06:18:03 <afed> lucky: good to know
1830 2011-01-02 06:18:36 <lucky> eg Lawrence v. Texas overturning the Supreme Court's own decision 17 years prior in Bowers v. Hardwick
1831 2011-01-02 06:23:09 marioxcc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1832 2011-01-02 06:24:56 <Sami345> how do I set Diablo's GPU miner connect somewhere else than localhost
1833 2011-01-02 06:25:27 <nanotube> there are probably cli args you can use... try running it with --help
1834 2011-01-02 06:25:32 Guest5583 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1835 2011-01-02 06:26:50 james_ has joined
1836 2011-01-02 06:30:06 * MT`AwAy pokes jgarzik
1837 2011-01-02 06:32:04 <Sami345> wtf?
1838 2011-01-02 06:32:08 <Sami345> 0 khash/sec
1839 2011-01-02 06:32:09 <Sami345> ...
1840 2011-01-02 06:32:41 <joe_1> yeah, satoshi put an easter egg in the software that was supposed to turn it off for a while at the new year.
1841 2011-01-02 06:34:46 <joe_1> no- i don't really know what issue you're having.
1842 2011-01-02 06:35:22 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: read the instructions.
1843 2011-01-02 06:35:27 <Sami345> I think my GPU just didn't like overheat
1844 2011-01-02 06:35:33 <Sami345> it's working again
1845 2011-01-02 06:36:04 <scibotic> So if I have to recommend a way for a client to fund their bitcoin account with less than $10, Bitcoin4Cash would be one of the most well regarded services in the community?
1846 2011-01-02 06:37:32 <lucky> Sami345, don't overheat your GPU :P
1847 2011-01-02 06:40:13 <Sami345> hmm
1848 2011-01-02 06:40:38 <Sami345> it cost me 0,25e/h to run worker
1849 2011-01-02 06:41:15 <Sami345> my computer uses 250 W/h
1850 2011-01-02 06:41:20 <joe_1> scibotic: i've never used them but i think they are reliable based on not hearing anything bad about them. i've always done usd > liberty reserve > mtgox.com for btc. but a direct usd > btc exchanger such as bitcoin4cash is clearly less complicated.
1851 2011-01-02 06:41:47 <scibotic> joe_1, Which exchanger do you use for Liberty Reserve?
1852 2011-01-02 06:43:12 <scibotic> joe_1, I'm only considering advocating Bitcoin4Cash since there's all the usual fraud issues with Paypal and Credit Card services.
1853 2011-01-02 06:44:12 <joe_1> for liberty reserve <-> btc, i use mtgox
1854 2011-01-02 06:44:25 <scibotic> For usd to lr though?
1855 2011-01-02 06:44:57 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, have you got any donations for your miner?
1856 2011-01-02 06:45:01 <joe_1> i've had good success with getemoney.com
1857 2011-01-02 06:45:25 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: I think someone once sent me 5 BTC
1858 2011-01-02 06:45:32 <Sami345> ok
1859 2011-01-02 06:45:40 <joe_1> scibotic: oh, but - they have a fee that makes it bad for small transactions
1860 2011-01-02 06:45:41 james has joined
1861 2011-01-02 06:46:06 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1862 2011-01-02 06:46:07 james is now known as Guest16092
1863 2011-01-02 06:49:19 <nanotube> scibotic: bitcoin4cash is reputable
1864 2011-01-02 06:49:52 <scibotic> nanotube, #otc seems to be a bit much to be advocating. :P
1865 2011-01-02 06:50:29 <nanotube> scibotic: hehe well... if people wants small amounts, there are always people on channel willing to deal with paypal...
1866 2011-01-02 06:50:55 <nanotube> which is usually the least-barrier method of acquiring btc
1867 2011-01-02 06:51:14 <afed> Sell: For every 200 bitcoins sent to 1CRZpkKKAt7G5uiK4JPBjBJGnozgiatFAs you will receive $1.00 USD in cash by mail.
1868 2011-01-02 06:51:18 <scibotic> nanotube, Yeah but there's the issue with having to explain to them how IRC works, where to get a Freenode cloak etc.
1869 2011-01-02 06:51:25 <afed> why does this joker still get a link on the official site
1870 2011-01-02 06:51:55 <nanotube> scibotic: they don't need a cloak to do one-off negotiated trades. only to put stuff on the order book and rate people in the wot.
1871 2011-01-02 06:52:38 <nanotube> that said, scibotic... bitcoin4cash is probably easiest to explain/deal with for a noob.
1872 2011-01-02 06:52:58 <scibotic> nanotube, I thought people wouldn't trade without it? As far as funding goes, the client only need $5-10.
1873 2011-01-02 06:53:37 theymos has joined
1874 2011-01-02 06:54:00 <nanotube> scibotic: people do trade... some trust can be established in a conversation over pm, etc.
1875 2011-01-02 06:54:47 <scibotic> nanotube, If I do send them there though, should I recommend a certain opening line to state?
1876 2011-01-02 06:55:44 <nanotube> scibotic: well... why not just buy some coins on -otc yourself, then resell to your contact? you probably will be able to get a better deal
1877 2011-01-02 06:56:12 <scibotic> nanotube, Trying to stay anonymous, so distributed funding sources is less of a liability.
1878 2011-01-02 06:56:19 <Sami345> Send threshold
1879 2011-01-02 06:56:39 <Sami345> if it creates lower amount of BTC
1880 2011-01-02 06:56:47 <Sami345> what happens to it?
1881 2011-01-02 06:57:11 <nanotube> scibotic: heh ic. well do you know and trust the person you're talking about?
1882 2011-01-02 06:57:16 <nanotube> Sami345: you're talking about the pool?
1883 2011-01-02 06:57:24 <nanotube> the bitcoin.cz pool
1884 2011-01-02 06:57:39 <Sami345> yeah
1885 2011-01-02 06:57:47 <scibotic> nanotube, This is more a discussion about your generic customer and no, if I trusted them I wouldn't have to use bitcoin.
1886 2011-01-02 06:57:59 <nanotube> scibotic: haha
1887 2011-01-02 06:58:08 <nanotube> i see
1888 2011-01-02 06:58:21 <scibotic> nanotube, But providing a paragraph on how to use #otc and setting up Freenode's webchat is a possibility.
1889 2011-01-02 06:58:52 <scibotic> Only thing is that the Freenode cloak takes a while since you have to locate staff etc. so that's a no go.
1890 2011-01-02 06:59:09 <nanotube> in that case... just suggest several potential sources... there's bitcoingateway (currently closed), the -otc channel, the bitcoin4cash, the recently-opened http://coinpal.ndrix.com/ ... let them decide.
1891 2011-01-02 06:59:43 <nanotube> you can put in a brief sentence or two about each of the methods
1892 2011-01-02 06:59:44 <scibotic> Coinpal is a bit new for me to recommend, Bitcoin4Cash is a definite and I had a good time trading with you on #otc.
1893 2011-01-02 06:59:57 <lfm> I dont see how using btc will protect you from someone you dont trust
1894 2011-01-02 07:00:01 <nanotube> scibotic: yea coinpal is in beta :)
1895 2011-01-02 07:00:34 <Sami345> I think much more effective way than mining would be offerin some services from Bitcoins
1896 2011-01-02 07:00:46 <nanotube> scibotic: so i guess... a couple sentences about bitcoin4cash and -otc should do it. people can decide whether they're more comfortable sending cash by mail, or doing irc
1897 2011-01-02 07:01:20 <joe_1> for larger transactions there are more possibilities
1898 2011-01-02 07:01:25 <Sami345> A nice idea:
1899 2011-01-02 07:01:26 <nanotube> Sami345: depends on if your services meet with demand.
1900 2011-01-02 07:01:28 <scibotic> nanotube, My only concern is sending a bunch of newbies your way without a cloak. You're sure that's fine?
1901 2011-01-02 07:01:48 <Sami345> I have internal graphics card build on motherboar
1902 2011-01-02 07:02:10 <Sami345> If I connect my monitor to that == full power of external graphics card for mining
1903 2011-01-02 07:02:26 <Sami345> works? :D
1904 2011-01-02 07:02:34 <nanotube> scibotic: i have personally traded with people without a cloak. i just make sure to do small amount, and talk to them a bit to make sure they're 'real people' :)
1905 2011-01-02 07:03:08 <nanotube> scibotic: if they come in and can't find anyone trade with... they can just go and try bitcoin4cash instead. :)
1906 2011-01-02 07:03:23 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, is your miner bugged: it founded a invalid block :o
1907 2011-01-02 07:03:36 <Sami345> *An
1908 2011-01-02 07:03:46 <scibotic> nanotube, Okay, thanks. :)
1909 2011-01-02 07:04:15 <nanotube> Sami345: yes, that would help you increase your hashrate from your gfx card.
1910 2011-01-02 07:04:31 <nanotube> scibotic: np :) good luck with your business! :)
1911 2011-01-02 07:06:55 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: not at all
1912 2011-01-02 07:06:59 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: post the exact error
1913 2011-01-02 07:10:21 <Sami345> ERROR: Invalid block found on Jupiner (#1), possible driver or hardware issue
1914 2011-01-02 07:10:44 <Diablo-D3> thats not my miner, thats your hardware.
1915 2011-01-02 07:10:47 <Diablo-D3> it clearly says so.
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1917 2011-01-02 07:10:54 <Diablo-D3> your hardware is overheating.
1918 2011-01-02 07:11:03 <Sami345> doing miscalculations?
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1920 2011-01-02 07:11:43 <Diablo-D3> yes.
1921 2011-01-02 07:11:51 <Diablo-D3> remember, I wrote the miner, I know what the error sdo.
1922 2011-01-02 07:12:14 <Sami345> I suppose it checks the block with CPU, if wrong, print error?
1923 2011-01-02 07:13:06 <Diablo-D3> yes.
1924 2011-01-02 07:13:48 <Sami345> so it may be bug in your check code or in your code that generates blocks :P
1925 2011-01-02 07:14:02 <Diablo-D3> nope.
1926 2011-01-02 07:14:12 <Diablo-D3> you already admitted your card is reaching 80c
1927 2011-01-02 07:14:24 <Sami345> actually it's 108 degree now
1928 2011-01-02 07:14:32 <Diablo-D3> dude, your card is going to bust itself.
1929 2011-01-02 07:14:35 <joe_1> holy sh**
1930 2011-01-02 07:14:43 <Diablo-D3> 85c is the absolute maximum safe limit
1931 2011-01-02 07:15:00 <Diablo-D3> 75c is the sane max limit
1932 2011-01-02 07:15:01 <joe_1> cant you put your chip in the refrigerator
1933 2011-01-02 07:15:08 <Diablo-D3> and your VRMs have probably already started melting
1934 2011-01-02 07:22:02 RazielZ has joined
1935 2011-01-02 07:29:34 <devon_hillard> Is there a windows utility that I can use to overclock an ATI card more than what's possible with AMD Overdrive?
1936 2011-01-02 07:30:06 <devon_hillard> running at 58 degrees in full load after 24 hours
1937 2011-01-02 07:30:21 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: not worth it
1938 2011-01-02 07:30:25 <Diablo-D3> cant drive the voltage high enough
1939 2011-01-02 07:30:35 <Diablo-D3> you could always just replace it with a 5970
1940 2011-01-02 07:30:55 <devon_hillard> but 58 degrees, I can push it another 10 degrees
1941 2011-01-02 07:31:01 <lfm> um ati IS amd
1942 2011-01-02 07:31:15 <devon_hillard> my older card went to 80 degrees with no problems
1943 2011-01-02 07:31:29 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: turn the fan down.
1944 2011-01-02 07:33:02 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1946 2011-01-02 07:33:57 <devon_hillard> the fan is only at 60% or so
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1948 2011-01-02 07:36:10 <Diablo-D3> hah
1949 2011-01-02 07:39:51 ArtForzZz has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
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1951 2011-01-02 07:40:58 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: ?
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1980 2011-01-02 09:39:04 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, I found actual bug, it doesn't work with the newest drivers
1981 2011-01-02 09:39:12 <Sami345> http://i.servut.us/i/errorhw.png
1982 2011-01-02 09:39:43 <Sami345> OpenCL examples run fine
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1986 2011-01-02 09:52:47 <Xunie> ;;bc,diff
1987 2011-01-02 09:52:48 <gribble> 14484.16236123
1988 2011-01-02 09:52:51 <Xunie> ;;bc,stats
1989 2011-01-02 09:52:53 <gribble> Current Blocks: 100657 | Current Difficulty: 14484.16236123 | Next Difficulty At Block: 100799 | Next Difficulty In: 142 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 hours, 55 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 16204.48589668
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1995 2011-01-02 10:04:19 <Sami345> idea: it takes about 3 minutes for my gpu to get 85 degress abd it cool down in one minute
1996 2011-01-02 10:04:40 <Sami345> so I could edit the program
1997 2011-01-02 10:04:56 <Sami345> work 3 minutes -> pause 1 minute -> repeat
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2014 2011-01-02 11:04:20 <lucky> Sami345, just put a nice new fan in your box :p
2015 2011-01-02 11:04:50 <Sami345> or I could clean it
2016 2011-01-02 11:04:57 <lucky> or you could clean it :P
2017 2011-01-02 11:05:05 <joe_1> put it in the refrigerator
2018 2011-01-02 11:05:22 <Sami345> how to get power there?
2019 2011-01-02 11:05:29 <Sami345> and all the other cables?
2020 2011-01-02 11:05:33 <joe_1> leave the door ajar
2021 2011-01-02 11:06:17 <lucky> good way to burn your fridge out in 6 months.
2022 2011-01-02 11:07:32 mids has left ()
2023 2011-01-02 11:07:45 <joe_1> oh well
2024 2011-01-02 11:07:49 <joe_1> your making 40$ a day
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2030 2011-01-02 11:22:36 <Keefe> $40/day with one card??
2031 2011-01-02 11:24:04 <Keefe> a 5970 makes about $10/day
2032 2011-01-02 11:25:23 <Keefe> oh you must mean 40 btc /day
2033 2011-01-02 11:25:36 james_ has joined
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2035 2011-01-02 11:26:52 <joe_1> i guess
2036 2011-01-02 11:29:14 lucky has joined
2037 2011-01-02 11:30:00 <tcatm> How many Mhash/s does Diablo-D3's miner do on a 5870?
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2045 2011-01-02 12:02:32 <Keefe> probably about 300
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2052 2011-01-02 12:28:47 <tcatm> Keefe: got a more exact value? I lost the sourcecode for my miner and had to rewrite it and now I don't know if its efficient or not
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2064 2011-01-02 12:44:01 <Sami345> nice
2065 2011-01-02 12:44:08 <Sami345> I cleaned up my computer
2066 2011-01-02 12:44:20 <Sami345> gpu temp on 100% usage
2067 2011-01-02 12:44:29 <Sami345> before: 108 degree celcius
2068 2011-01-02 12:44:31 <Sami345> now: 74
2069 2011-01-02 12:45:43 <Sami345> also my computer is less loudy
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2072 2011-01-02 12:49:32 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, 74 degree is a ok temp?
2073 2011-01-02 12:50:00 <Sami345> I haven't cleaned that fan like in a year :D
2074 2011-01-02 12:51:23 <Diablo-D3> heh
2075 2011-01-02 12:51:26 <Diablo-D3> its lower
2076 2011-01-02 12:51:28 <Diablo-D3> thats for sure
2077 2011-01-02 12:51:45 <tcatm> Diablo-D3: how fast is your miner on 5870/5970?
2078 2011-01-02 12:52:20 <sipa> 5870 will be 1/2 the speed of 5970, i suppose
2079 2011-01-02 12:53:24 <tcatm> should be 17/29 of 5970 but I'm interested in accurate Mhash/s numbers
2080 2011-01-02 12:53:51 <sipa> any reason why it's not exactly 1/2?
2081 2011-01-02 12:54:01 <sipa> a 5970 contains two 5870 gpu's, no?
2082 2011-01-02 12:54:38 <tcatm> 5970 runs at 725MHz, 850 at 850
2083 2011-01-02 12:54:45 <tcatm> 5870 at 850
2084 2011-01-02 12:54:56 <sipa> ic
2085 2011-01-02 12:55:58 <sipa> tcatm: wiki says 313Mhash/s for 5870
2086 2011-01-02 12:56:11 <Sami345> is it good idea to run cpu and gpu miner at the same time?
2087 2011-01-02 12:56:22 <tcatm> Sami345: no
2088 2011-01-02 12:56:34 <sipa> Sami345: if i do so,i lose more performance on the gpu than i gain on the cpu
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2092 2011-01-02 13:04:52 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, your program doesn't like when server goes down and it has no work to do :D
2093 2011-01-02 13:05:00 <Sami345> crash
2094 2011-01-02 13:08:03 <Keefe> tcatm: the best i've heard of is 556.3 @ 725 on a 5970
2095 2011-01-02 13:08:03 <sipa> while true; do ./run-diablo-miner.sh; done
2096 2011-01-02 13:08:54 zylche has joined
2097 2011-01-02 13:09:05 <Keefe> which calcs to 326 mhps on a 5870 at 850
2098 2011-01-02 13:09:46 <Keefe> i don't know how much slower Diablo's is
2099 2011-01-02 13:14:33 <Keefe> actually i do, last i heard a few days ago Diablo's is 3.5% slower, so 313 sounds just right
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2104 2011-01-02 13:20:44 <Sami345> who will encrypt all the transactions when 21 millions is full
2105 2011-01-02 13:22:54 <sipa> you mean mine for blocks?
2106 2011-01-02 13:23:01 <sipa> there's no encryption going on
2107 2011-01-02 13:23:18 <sipa> but if that's your question: people who want the transaction fees
2108 2011-01-02 13:26:13 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2109 2011-01-02 13:28:18 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: yes, just restart it when it does it
2110 2011-01-02 13:28:26 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: it depends how you define slower
2111 2011-01-02 13:28:35 <Diablo-D3> mine doesnt use the loop trick, but the loop trick isnt worth 3.5%
2112 2011-01-02 13:32:05 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: also, make sure you have the newest version
2113 2011-01-02 13:32:22 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: I recently pushed a fixup for one issue that slipped through
2114 2011-01-02 13:32:46 <Sami345> how do I know do I have the newest version?
2115 2011-01-02 13:33:31 <Diablo-D3> you download it again.
2116 2011-01-02 13:35:07 <mizerydearia> Are "comment"s and "comment-to"s public per txid?
2117 2011-01-02 13:35:27 <Diablo-D3> yes
2118 2011-01-02 13:35:32 <mizerydearia> kk
2119 2011-01-02 13:37:37 <Sami345> hmm
2120 2011-01-02 13:37:41 james_ has joined
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2122 2011-01-02 13:38:02 <Sami345> Wouldn't it be possible to cheat on bitcoin cluster
2123 2011-01-02 13:38:08 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: no.
2124 2011-01-02 13:38:20 <Sami345> just send solutions to "easy" problems to server
2125 2011-01-02 13:38:21 <Diablo-D3> and yes, someone before you has come in here and proposed how
2126 2011-01-02 13:38:34 <Diablo-D3> you mean to the pool?
2127 2011-01-02 13:38:39 <Sami345> yeah
2128 2011-01-02 13:38:41 <Diablo-D3> it already gives you maximum easy solutions.
2129 2011-01-02 13:39:01 FFFFUUUUU has joined
2130 2011-01-02 13:39:09 <Diablo-D3> difficultly of 1 is as low as it goes before it forces mines to remove an important optimization
2131 2011-01-02 13:39:13 <Sami345> yeah, it tests my computer with easy solutions and then gives the real job
2132 2011-01-02 13:39:33 <Sami345> couldn't my computer keep real job solutions to itself
2133 2011-01-02 13:39:39 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: nope
2134 2011-01-02 13:40:01 <Diablo-D3> the problems given to miners from the pool are poisoned with a missing transaction
2135 2011-01-02 13:40:11 <Diablo-D3> and you cant reasonably recreate it either
2136 2011-01-02 13:40:22 <Sami345> ok
2137 2011-01-02 13:41:08 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2138 2011-01-02 13:42:04 <Diablo-D3> seriously, everything you can think of, its already frequently asked in here
2139 2011-01-02 13:42:09 <Diablo-D3> we shoot them down every time
2140 2011-01-02 13:42:47 <Diablo-D3> it either involves breaking the cryptography behind bitcoin (which would make 97 of the 125 governments of the world want you dead, every single major bank, every single major company, etc)
2141 2011-01-02 13:42:51 <Diablo-D3> (and/or God)
2142 2011-01-02 13:42:52 <Sami345> best way to "cheat" bitcoins is scam
2143 2011-01-02 13:43:05 <Diablo-D3> or it involves a misunderstanding of how bitcoin works
2144 2011-01-02 13:45:54 <Sami345> 21 million bitcoins is too few
2145 2011-01-02 13:46:47 <Diablo-D3> not at all
2146 2011-01-02 13:47:10 <Diablo-D3> remember, they are divisible for 8 places below the decimal point
2147 2011-01-02 13:47:11 <wumpus> how can an arbitrary number of arbitrary valued units be 'too few'
2148 2011-01-02 13:47:28 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2149 2011-01-02 13:47:52 <tcatm> ;;bc,calc 3350E6
2150 2011-01-02 13:47:52 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
2151 2011-01-02 13:47:58 <tcatm> ;;bc,calc 3350000000
2152 2011-01-02 13:47:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 3350000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 18 seconds
2153 2011-01-02 13:48:24 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: did you forget to /1000?
2154 2011-01-02 13:48:53 <tcatm> Wasn't sure how to use that command
2155 2011-01-02 13:49:01 <Diablo-D3> its khash not hash
2156 2011-01-02 13:49:37 darrob has joined
2157 2011-01-02 13:49:47 <Sami345> it's about 24h from I last slept
2158 2011-01-02 13:49:54 <Sami345> I am bit tired already
2159 2011-01-02 13:50:00 <sipa> maybe you should go to bed
2160 2011-01-02 13:50:00 <Diablo-D3> go to bed man
2161 2011-01-02 13:50:28 <tcatm> I hate it that after writing a new miner I never know if it'll find a block at all (although my test cases say it should).
2162 2011-01-02 13:50:45 samfisher has joined
2163 2011-01-02 13:50:46 <samfisher> hi
2164 2011-01-02 13:50:54 <Sami345> tcatm, just give it simple test tasks?
2165 2011-01-02 13:50:55 <sipa> tcatm: try it on the test network first :)
2166 2011-01-02 13:51:03 <samfisher> how many bitcoins per day could I get with a pooled cpu miner?
2167 2011-01-02 13:51:15 <tcatm> sipa: that's part of the test cases ;)
2168 2011-01-02 13:51:30 <Sami345> samfisher, depents on you computer power
2169 2011-01-02 13:51:36 <Keefe> samfisher: how fast is your cpu?
2170 2011-01-02 13:51:36 <Sami345> *your
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2172 2011-01-02 13:51:54 <sipa> samfisher: how many khash/s in particular
2173 2011-01-02 13:51:57 <Sami345> or gpu if it is a good one
2174 2011-01-02 13:52:06 james_ has joined
2175 2011-01-02 13:52:17 <samfisher> aprox 2000 khashes
2176 2011-01-02 13:52:27 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 2000
2177 2011-01-02 13:52:28 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 51 weeks, 3 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes, and 21 seconds
2178 2011-01-02 13:52:46 <Diablo-D3> might as well just join the pool at that point
2179 2011-01-02 13:52:49 <sipa> you'd get 0.14 BTC per day, i think
2180 2011-01-02 13:52:50 <samfisher> yes, but using the pooled?
2181 2011-01-02 13:52:56 <samfisher> hmm
2182 2011-01-02 13:53:06 <Sami345> ;;bc,calc 145000
2183 2011-01-02 13:53:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 145000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 4 days, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 27 seconds
2184 2011-01-02 13:53:10 <sipa> samfisher: pooled gives you on average the same as you would get without the pool
2185 2011-01-02 13:53:21 <sipa> samfisher: but in more frequent and smaller payouts
2186 2011-01-02 13:53:32 <samfisher> oh, i see
2187 2011-01-02 13:53:57 <samfisher> another question: what kind of hardware should i buy in order to mine more bitcoins?
2188 2011-01-02 13:54:04 <Keefe> amd gpus
2189 2011-01-02 13:54:13 <Sami345> 0.59143071 unconfirmed reward :)
2190 2011-01-02 13:54:24 <samfisher> Keefe: what amd gpu?
2191 2011-01-02 13:54:52 <Keefe> 5970, $400, 600 mhps overclocked
2192 2011-01-02 13:55:07 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 600000
2193 2011-01-02 13:55:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 48 minutes, and 1 second
2194 2011-01-02 13:55:10 <Keefe> ~40 btc /day
2195 2011-01-02 13:55:32 <Sami345> Keefe, you run miner 24/7?
2196 2011-01-02 13:55:36 <Keefe> yes
2197 2011-01-02 13:55:39 <Sami345> O.o
2198 2011-01-02 13:55:43 <Keefe> 3 5970
2199 2011-01-02 13:55:49 <Sami345> how you can use your computer :D
2200 2011-01-02 13:55:49 <Keefe> and 1 5770
2201 2011-01-02 13:56:00 <sipa> if you invest in one for the purpose of making money with it, you should run it 24/7
2202 2011-01-02 13:56:02 <Keefe> i don't use those for anything else
2203 2011-01-02 13:56:06 <Sami345> Keefe the rich bitch? :D
2204 2011-01-02 13:56:20 <Keefe> oh that's nothing compared to Art's cluster
2205 2011-01-02 13:56:34 <samfisher> what cluster?
2206 2011-01-02 13:56:36 <sipa> Art has 24 5970's, right
2207 2011-01-02 13:56:38 <sipa> ?
2208 2011-01-02 13:56:42 <samfisher> 24??
2209 2011-01-02 13:56:43 <Keefe> yep, plus some others
2210 2011-01-02 13:56:46 <Sami345> loool
2211 2011-01-02 13:56:55 <Keefe> and he's going to setup custom ASIC's soon
2212 2011-01-02 13:57:07 <Sami345> Keefe, in one motherboard? O.i
2213 2011-01-02 13:57:13 <Sami345> or multiple computers?
2214 2011-01-02 13:57:14 <Keefe> 4 5970's per board
2215 2011-01-02 13:57:15 <sipa> Sami345: he has 4 per machine
2216 2011-01-02 13:58:22 <Keefe> i wouldn't recommend buying gpu's for mining anymore. you won't pay them off before difficulty increases so far as to make it worth less than electricity costs
2217 2011-01-02 13:58:38 <sipa> indeed
2218 2011-01-02 13:58:52 <sipa> but if you plan on buying a new graphics card
2219 2011-01-02 13:59:08 <Keefe> and if others do as Art is doing, soon even gpu's will be left in the dust
2220 2011-01-02 13:59:11 <sipa> this is the perfect excuse, and you might get a part of it payed back :)
2221 2011-01-02 14:00:41 <Sami345> I just realized this is just stupid
2222 2011-01-02 14:01:09 <sipa> what is stupid and why?
2223 2011-01-02 14:01:16 <Sami345> We are using very much computing power to count money based on computing power...
2224 2011-01-02 14:01:26 <Sami345> It's just insane
2225 2011-01-02 14:01:34 <sipa> yes, it is a pity, but unavoidable
2226 2011-01-02 14:02:30 <Sami345> How does the mining actually "stop"
2227 2011-01-02 14:02:37 <helmut> never
2228 2011-01-02 14:02:47 <Sami345> 21 million is maximum?
2229 2011-01-02 14:02:56 <sipa> the gains decrease of time
2230 2011-01-02 14:02:57 <Sami345> 50 every 10 minutes
2231 2011-01-02 14:03:03 <Sami345> it have to stop
2232 2011-01-02 14:03:07 <helmut> there is a maximum, but it never stops
2233 2011-01-02 14:03:12 <sipa> after block 210000 it is only 25BTC every 10 minutes
2234 2011-01-02 14:03:24 <sipa> after block 420000 it is 12.5BTC every 10 minutes
2235 2011-01-02 14:03:25 <sipa> and so on
2236 2011-01-02 14:03:29 <Sami345> ok
2237 2011-01-02 14:03:35 <helmut> and after maximum, just the transaction fee is to be gained
2238 2011-01-02 14:03:36 <Keefe> "mining" is actually just creating blocks, whether it pays a reward or not
2239 2011-01-02 14:04:19 <Keefe> if "miners" stopped running their processors when the flow of new coins slows to a trickle, the bitcoin system will collapse
2240 2011-01-02 14:04:46 <Keefe> we expect txn fees to take the place of the minting of bitcoins
2241 2011-01-02 14:04:47 <helmut> the problem is not the lack of new coins, but the lack of transaction processing
2242 2011-01-02 14:05:49 <Keefe> and the vulnerability to attack if the total processing power drops too much
2243 2011-01-02 14:05:55 <Sami345> Keefe, often people don't care about if their send money goes fast or slow
2244 2011-01-02 14:05:56 <helmut> yes
2245 2011-01-02 14:06:28 <Sami345> the receiver should pay the transaction fee
2246 2011-01-02 14:06:40 <helmut> impossible
2247 2011-01-02 14:06:42 <sipa> if agreed to, sure
2248 2011-01-02 14:06:50 <Keefe> anyway, this is a very far off concern
2249 2011-01-02 14:06:52 <sipa> but the transaction is initiated by the sender
2250 2011-01-02 14:07:17 <Keefe> many other things to think about and work on before that becomes a problem
2251 2011-01-02 14:07:24 <sipa> yes
2252 2011-01-02 14:07:35 <helmut> for instance a second implementation
2253 2011-01-02 14:07:52 <Sami345> a second implentation?
2254 2011-01-02 14:07:59 <sipa> yes, one with inflation and fractional reserve and so on *ducks*
2255 2011-01-02 14:08:20 <sipa> oh, you mean a second implementation of the client?
2256 2011-01-02 14:08:24 <sipa> yes, definitely
2257 2011-01-02 14:09:15 <helmut> bitcoin should separate protocol from implementation asap
2258 2011-01-02 14:09:36 <helmut> this is basically the only way to achieve real openness
2259 2011-01-02 14:09:36 <lucky> it has, to some degree
2260 2011-01-02 14:09:56 <helmut> lucky: could you be more precise on how?
2261 2011-01-02 14:10:00 <lucky> The specification is quite thorough
2262 2011-01-02 14:10:10 <lucky> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
2263 2011-01-02 14:10:16 * helmut laughs
2264 2011-01-02 14:10:19 <helmut> 1) it is wrong
2265 2011-01-02 14:10:23 <helmut> 2) it is totally incomplete
2266 2011-01-02 14:10:53 <lucky> and i believe an attempt at implementation in Java at http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin-client/
2267 2011-01-02 14:12:56 <helmut> nice attempt, but doomed
2268 2011-01-02 14:13:04 <sipa> why?
2269 2011-01-02 14:13:39 <helmut> it is a client to bitcoind
2270 2011-01-02 14:13:56 <helmut> via json
2271 2011-01-02 14:14:32 <sipa> oh
2272 2011-01-02 14:15:11 <helmut> this is what I mean when I say bitcoin needs a second implementation
2273 2011-01-02 14:16:08 <sipa> there was some talk about an independent android implementation
2274 2011-01-02 14:16:18 <helmut> no
2275 2011-01-02 14:16:24 <sipa> no?
2276 2011-01-02 14:16:41 <helmut> there has been talk and work about an adroid implementation
2277 2011-01-02 14:16:47 <sipa> yes
2278 2011-01-02 14:16:48 <helmut> a dependant one
2279 2011-01-02 14:16:51 <lucky> ah.
2280 2011-01-02 14:16:58 <lucky> just a front end then, hm
2281 2011-01-02 14:17:07 <sipa> really? i heard at least someone was working on a native java one
2282 2011-01-02 14:17:09 <lucky> you make a fairly good point then helmut
2283 2011-01-02 14:17:11 <helmut> actually TD is doing this. it relies on a trustworthy bitcoind node
2284 2011-01-02 14:17:19 <sipa> oh
2285 2011-01-02 14:17:35 <TD> it's not dependent on a trustworthy node
2286 2011-01-02 14:17:42 <TD> it may be able to use one later for improved user experience
2287 2011-01-02 14:18:09 <TD> it does not give you the same assurances as the official client, but the difference is unlikely to be large in practice
2288 2011-01-02 14:18:12 <helmut> until it verifies transactions it cannot be seen as an independant implementation, sorry.
2289 2011-01-02 14:18:29 james has joined
2290 2011-01-02 14:18:36 <sipa> TD: in which points does it differ, exactly?
2291 2011-01-02 14:18:55 james is now known as Guest52698
2292 2011-01-02 14:19:11 <TD> a transaction that would show in the official client as "0/unconfirmed" has in fact been confirmed in a few important ways - namely that it spends coins which exist, and which the tx sender is allowed to spend
2293 2011-01-02 14:19:25 <TD> the android client i'm writing cannot prove either of those things when in 0/unconfirmed state
2294 2011-01-02 14:19:29 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2295 2011-01-02 14:19:30 <helmut> sipa: td verifies the block chain, but not the transactions. this allows some attacks with little impact, mainly DoS.
2296 2011-01-02 14:19:41 <TD> (without the help of a trusted node)
2297 2011-01-02 14:19:51 <sipa> i see
2298 2011-01-02 14:19:56 <TD> once the tx shows as N/unconfirmed where N > 0 it means the client received proof the network accepted it
2299 2011-01-02 14:20:14 <TD> as N gets higher the likelyhood that the tx isn't "real" gets lower and lower
2300 2011-01-02 14:20:40 <TD> so in practice, if you wait for a new block when receiving a transaction you have a pretty good guarantee that the tx is real, confirmed and you can spend the received coins
2301 2011-01-02 14:21:10 <helmut> sipa: in practise I'd say that TD's implementation looks most promising so far (based on what he tells)
2302 2011-01-02 14:21:20 <sipa> ok
2303 2011-01-02 14:21:41 <TD> there's still a fair bit of work to do. i'm planning on popping down to a local coffee shop in a bit and doing more work on it
2304 2011-01-02 14:22:06 <TD> the hardest part (imho) is now coming up - fixing the bugs that mean the tx signatures don't match. will require some hacking of the official client to get better logging, i think.
2305 2011-01-02 14:22:17 <TD> after that it should be a downhill run
2306 2011-01-02 14:22:39 <helmut> TD: this is why I was going for verification first ;-)
2307 2011-01-02 14:22:57 <helmut> TD: granted my success is lower than yours
2308 2011-01-02 14:23:03 <TD> once the tx signatures match, verification is very easy to add. the extra work is mostly in doing the block storage and indexing
2309 2011-01-02 14:23:10 <TD> as the block chain does not fit in RAM (i know, i tried :-)
2310 2011-01-02 14:23:23 <bd_> TD: sure it does, if you have enough RAM
2311 2011-01-02 14:23:24 <sipa> $ du -sh /home/pw/.bitcoin/
2312 2011-01-02 14:23:24 <sipa> 134M	/home/pw/.bitcoin/
2313 2011-01-02 14:23:36 <TD> well i meant, doesn't fit in RAM using my crappy java implementation :)
2314 2011-01-02 14:23:40 <bd_> oh, android client
2315 2011-01-02 14:23:44 <TD> yeah
2316 2011-01-02 14:23:45 <helmut> the block chain isn't big
2317 2011-01-02 14:23:49 <bd_> nevermind then :)
2318 2011-01-02 14:23:51 toxx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2319 2011-01-02 14:23:55 <helmut> it's less than 10M afaik
2320 2011-01-02 14:24:12 <bd_> that small? I thought it was over 100MB by now..
2321 2011-01-02 14:24:13 <TD> -rw-------   1 hearn  5000    58M Jan  1 21:52 blk0001.dat
2322 2011-01-02 14:24:13 <TD> -rw-------   1 hearn  5000    50M Jan  1 21:58 blkindex.dat
2323 2011-01-02 14:24:24 <helmut> bd_: without transactions ;-)
2324 2011-01-02 14:24:25 <TD> 60mb for the prod block chain and another 50 for the indexs
2325 2011-01-02 14:24:27 <TD> ah
2326 2011-01-02 14:24:29 <TD> sure
2327 2011-01-02 14:24:36 <TD> that sounds more like the right ballpark
2328 2011-01-02 14:24:37 <helmut> bd_: and without index
2329 2011-01-02 14:24:45 <sipa> then what do you include, if no transactions?
2330 2011-01-02 14:24:47 <TD> but obviously to verify transactions you need the full chain and the indexs :)
2331 2011-01-02 14:24:49 <sipa> just the hashes?
2332 2011-01-02 14:24:49 <TD> sipa: the headers
2333 2011-01-02 14:25:00 <bd_> helmut: ah :) Well, with txns and indexes it'll be tough to do that on a cellphone
2334 2011-01-02 14:25:07 <sipa> version + merkle root + time stamp + nonce ?
2335 2011-01-02 14:25:10 <helmut> bd_: agreed
2336 2011-01-02 14:25:13 <bd_> but anyway if bitcoin takes off bandwidth and processor power would be an issue on a cell phone as well
2337 2011-01-02 14:25:53 <helmut> it's not that bad
2338 2011-01-02 14:26:02 <helmut> keep in mind that a block pops up every 10 minutes
2339 2011-01-02 14:26:17 <bd_> helmut: but unconfirmed txns would be propagated too
2340 2011-01-02 14:26:18 <helmut> estimating the bandwidth will be lower than 1kb/s
2341 2011-01-02 14:26:23 <bd_> one packet * txn * peer
2342 2011-01-02 14:26:35 <helmut> bd_: non-mining clients don't care about unconfirmed
2343 2011-01-02 14:26:35 <edcba> if you don't forward transactions to cell phone it's ok
2344 2011-01-02 14:26:43 <TD> no, that's helmuts point. the client i'm writing does not download unconfirmed transactions. it can't do anything useful with them.
2345 2011-01-02 14:26:46 <bd_> helmut: they don't care, but their peer will still tell them about it
2346 2011-01-02 14:26:57 <TD> it might get notified about them via some other backchannel rather than official p2p network in future
2347 2011-01-02 14:27:03 <bd_> I suppose so
2348 2011-01-02 14:27:18 <TD> i did some calculations as to bandwidth and cpu requirements in extreme scale on the forum (for keeping up with visa)
2349 2011-01-02 14:27:29 <bd_> still, every 10 minutes, you butn a bunch of CPU processingwhat will eventually be hundreds/thousands of txns in a 10 minute period
2350 2011-01-02 14:27:33 <TD> basically a visa scale bitcoin network with the implementation of today would produce blocks of a bit over a gigabyte in size
2351 2011-01-02 14:27:36 <bd_> and CPU = battery...
2352 2011-01-02 14:27:39 <TD> too big to download to a cell phone *today*
2353 2011-01-02 14:27:56 <helmut> not sure whether the protocol is capable at the moment, but a node should be able to delcare no interest in unconfirmed tx
2354 2011-01-02 14:27:58 <TD> but in some hypothetical future where bitcoin is as common as visa, there'd be alternative implementations and besides, much better mobile networks :)
2355 2011-01-02 14:28:26 <TD> bd_: you only need to download the full block contents to find out when you received coins. that's pretty fast.
2356 2011-01-02 14:28:34 <TD> just scanning over some data structures. not a significant cpu/battery hit.
2357 2011-01-02 14:28:56 <helmut> bd_: as TD says: just keeping up with the chain is no big hit
2358 2011-01-02 14:29:20 <bd_> I see. I'd be worried about the crypto myself, but I guess you only need to verify the chain leading up to your own txns
2359 2011-01-02 14:29:34 <TD> verifying the chain is cheap
2360 2011-01-02 14:29:48 <helmut> for verification you basically need a few sha2 computations
2361 2011-01-02 14:29:58 <bd_> you do need to hash each txn in the block to build the index of course :)
2362 2011-01-02 14:30:04 <helmut> current machines do about millions of them per second
2363 2011-01-02 14:30:06 <bd_> or look it up in an external server
2364 2011-01-02 14:30:17 <bd_> helmut: It's not a matter of speed
2365 2011-01-02 14:30:19 <bd_> it's a matter of power
2366 2011-01-02 14:30:39 <bd_> having your cellphone doing a bunch of sha1s every 10 minutes will drain the battery
2367 2011-01-02 14:30:39 <TD> bd_: if you rely on the network you can ignore the block bodies
2368 2011-01-02 14:30:44 <helmut> bd_: let's say android is 100 times slower that'd be 10k sums / second
2369 2011-01-02 14:30:45 <TD> just check the headers
2370 2011-01-02 14:30:57 <helmut> bd_: verifying a new block is less than 10k hashes
2371 2011-01-02 14:31:08 <helmut> bd_: so your android cpu is busy for less than 1s/10minutes
2372 2011-01-02 14:31:18 <TD> sorry, i'm wrong. didn't wake up yet :)
2373 2011-01-02 14:31:22 <TD> you do need to check the merkle tree is valid
2374 2011-01-02 14:31:26 <TD> but yes, that's not a big deal.
2375 2011-01-02 14:31:37 <TD> bear in mind we're talking about devices that run fully blown java JIT compilers on them :)
2376 2011-01-02 14:31:44 <bd_> heh, I suppose :)
2377 2011-01-02 14:32:11 <bd_> still it seems to me that it'd be better to leave all the hard work (indexing the blocks, searching the index) to an external server
2378 2011-01-02 14:32:15 <bd_> and just check that external server's work
2379 2011-01-02 14:32:41 <helmut> if you have such a (trusted) server, yes.
2380 2011-01-02 14:32:54 <bd_> it doesn't need to be trusted
2381 2011-01-02 14:32:57 <sipa> TD: to be technically correct, it is not a Java (the bytecode) JIT
2382 2011-01-02 14:32:59 <helmut> it does
2383 2011-01-02 14:33:10 <TD> sipa: that's true
2384 2011-01-02 14:33:10 <sipa> and pre-2.1 didn't have any JIT at all, it was just an interpreter
2385 2011-01-02 14:33:37 <bd_> Not really - you ask it for updates, it sends back the chain back to generation blocks for the transaction(s) in question, plus the block headers
2386 2011-01-02 14:34:00 <bd_> basically, you have the server handle the hard work of searching for the txns in questions
2387 2011-01-02 14:34:10 <bd_> as well as keeping up with new blocks
2388 2011-01-02 14:34:23 <bd_> The cell phone only does work when you run the application and there are new received transactions
2389 2011-01-02 14:34:28 <sipa> everytime my GPU stops making noise, i wonder whether slush is doing something to the pool, or my internet connection broke :(
2390 2011-01-02 14:34:47 <TD> bd_: if you don't have a (potentially pruned) copy of the block chain going back to the genesis block you can't prove the received transactions aren't double spends
2391 2011-01-02 14:34:50 <bd_> Sure, the server can refuse to forward a transaction, but you can avoid that by using multiple unaffiliated servers
2392 2011-01-02 14:34:54 <sipa> bd_: then you're making a front end, not a client
2393 2011-01-02 14:35:13 <TD> basically, it's a balance.
2394 2011-01-02 14:35:45 <TD> downloading and verifying the block chain but NOT the transactions means you cannot have any assurance of a transactions validity, until it gets into a block. so that's a ten minute-ish delay for receiving coins
2395 2011-01-02 14:35:46 <bd_> TD: well, if you have the headers that's good enough. My point is, don't try to have the cell phone keep up with the stream in real time. When the user runs the app, send down the bare minimum of data needed to run a verification
2396 2011-01-02 14:35:54 <TD> kind of annoying .... but the advantage is much lower resource usage on the phone
2397 2011-01-02 14:36:06 <bd_> TD: Well, you can always run verification on the sources for the txn.
2398 2011-01-02 14:36:21 <bd_> ah, nevermind, double-spend is a problem indeed.
2399 2011-01-02 14:36:27 <TD> yes, most likely you'd only catch up with the chain when you needed to, or maybe overnight to avoid the delays becoming too huge
2400 2011-01-02 14:36:31 <bd_> You can show a (DANGER UNVERIFIED) flag :)
2401 2011-01-02 14:36:37 <TD> well. i've been thinking about that a lot.
2402 2011-01-02 14:36:44 <bd_> actually, no matter what, you can't prove there's no double-spend until it makes it into a block
2403 2011-01-02 14:36:47 <TD> i think for v1 i just won't show transactions that aren't in a block.
2404 2011-01-02 14:37:00 <bd_> as there can be another unverified transaction with the same sources floating around that makes it into the block
2405 2011-01-02 14:37:06 <TD> v2 might introduce some trusted relay nodes
2406 2011-01-02 14:37:25 <TD> so you'd get the lower latency. if the relay nodes are compromised it means you can be fooled for 10 minutes
2407 2011-01-02 14:37:33 <TD> then the phone would figure out the reality of the situation
2408 2011-01-02 14:37:33 <bd_> *nod*
2409 2011-01-02 14:37:49 <TD> longer term i want to have an incognito mode type equivalent which basically dials up the paranoia/privacy settings
2410 2011-01-02 14:37:51 <bd_> but even then, the relay nodes can be fooled
2411 2011-01-02 14:38:13 <TD> so the people who want to pay the costs of dealing with sophisticated attackers can do, and the other 99% get the usability
2412 2011-01-02 14:38:16 <bd_> connect to the relay nodes and send in the false transaction. At the same time, connect to a bunch of people with lots of CPU/GPU power and send in a different txn
2413 2011-01-02 14:38:37 <TD> well the relays would be full network nodes capable of verifying transactions for validity and maintaining lots of connections
2414 2011-01-02 14:38:42 <TD> so that would be a hard attack
2415 2011-01-02 14:38:48 <TD> and it assumes you can identify the relays
2416 2011-01-02 14:38:54 <TD> i would probably keep their identities private
2417 2011-01-02 14:39:16 <bd_> TD: It's a probability thing. It's fairly simple to make sure different nodes get different transactions - just figure out your RTT and arrange for the txns to arrive at the same time
2418 2011-01-02 14:39:34 <TD> basically, there are no absolutes, but we can ramp up the difficulty of attacking the system significantly, especially if we find a way to expose the security/usability tradeoffs in an easy to understand manner
2419 2011-01-02 14:39:37 <bd_> Then you just arrange for the total amount of CPU power on the txn you want to go through to be much larger than the relay nodes
2420 2011-01-02 14:39:45 <bd_> Sure, it won't succeed every time
2421 2011-01-02 14:39:47 <TD> txs are globally broadcast
2422 2011-01-02 14:39:50 <bd_> But do you need it to succeed _every_ time?
2423 2011-01-02 14:40:01 <bd_> TD: Yes, and what happens when you receive a txn that looks like a double spend?
2424 2011-01-02 14:40:16 <TD> the first one wins.
2425 2011-01-02 14:40:39 <bd_> TD: so we just need to make sure different nods have a different idea of which is first :)
2426 2011-01-02 14:40:47 <edcba> (txs are globally broadcast and this is wrong)
2427 2011-01-02 14:41:06 <helmut> edcba: uhm. why? I don't see the reason yet
2428 2011-01-02 14:41:25 <bd_> edcba: If there's a winning condition, then it gets even easier to do this attack
2429 2011-01-02 14:41:26 <TD> most of the timing attacks people talk about can be mitigated by just waiting 10 or 20 minutes. for large transactions where it matters, like selling a car or a house, waiting is no big deal.
2430 2011-01-02 14:41:41 <TD> these attacks are of interest where you have very high stakes AND very fast response times. maybe like stock trading or so.
2431 2011-01-02 14:41:58 <TD> not things you will use mobile phones for :-)
2432 2011-01-02 14:41:58 <bd_> They're of interest anywhere you can buy something that can be pawned off easily :)
2433 2011-01-02 14:42:58 <edcba> helmut: because you don't want your node see the 4 billions tx made by whole world each day
2434 2011-01-02 14:43:16 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2435 2011-01-02 14:43:50 <helmut> edcba: then you need to rethink bitcoin from ground up. might be a good idea, but definitely not bitcoin. if you have a document describing a working process, tell me.
2436 2011-01-02 14:44:23 <bd_> The fundamental reason why bitcoin can be trusted without trusting any individual nodes is because double-spending can be verified by any node
2437 2011-01-02 14:44:24 <edcba> yes i should start a bitcoin v2.0 :)
2438 2011-01-02 14:44:37 <bd_> If you stop broadcasting txns, now you can't do that verification anymore
2439 2011-01-02 14:44:40 <helmut> edcba: no. just the spec
2440 2011-01-02 14:44:54 <edcba> helmut: maybe i could start with the spec :)
2441 2011-01-02 14:45:14 <helmut> edcba: I'd definitely be interested
2442 2011-01-02 14:45:17 <bd_> One thing you can do, though, it put another layer on top of bitcoin of semi-trusted banks. Txns between users would be batched up and reconciled in a single batch
2443 2011-01-02 14:45:35 <bd_> At this point the bank is a point of failure for the users using it, of course.
2444 2011-01-02 14:45:48 <helmut> bd_: like mybitcoin?
2445 2011-01-02 14:45:51 <sipa> make it a distributed database, where each client only knows about a certain fraction of the transactions
2446 2011-01-02 14:46:03 <bd_> helmut: Right. But you'd also want to allow transactions between banks to be batched up to an extent
2447 2011-01-02 14:46:04 <sipa> but each can ask about any transaction if they want
2448 2011-01-02 14:46:04 <helmut> sipa: double spending...
2449 2011-01-02 14:46:26 <bd_> The fundamental question is this:
2450 2011-01-02 14:46:42 <sipa> helmut: yeah
2451 2011-01-02 14:46:45 <bd_> How do we determine the first _valid_ transaction to mention another specific transaction
2452 2011-01-02 14:47:35 <helmut> all this "don't know about all txs" talk is doomed (for bitcoin), cause it is based on this assumption
2453 2011-01-02 14:47:42 <helmut> if you change this, think from ground up.
2454 2011-01-02 14:47:42 <bd_> You need to be able to quickly find if such a transaction exists; you also must be able to defend against malicious false positives and false negatives
2455 2011-01-02 14:48:14 <bd_> helmut: The problem of double spending is still pretty fundamental
2456 2011-01-02 14:48:29 <sipa> helmut: eventually you will somehow need to split up the block chain... there's no way to have a whole network of millions of clients to know each and every of millions of transactions per second
2457 2011-01-02 14:48:35 <bd_> You need a way to invalidate some currency; however you need to be able to control who can perform an invalidation; and you need to prevent false pos/negs
2458 2011-01-02 14:49:22 <edcba> invalidate some currency ?
2459 2011-01-02 14:49:25 <edcba> what for ?
2460 2011-01-02 14:49:38 <bd_> edcba: invalidate - meaning, it's been spent
2461 2011-01-02 14:49:46 <helmut> sipa: if you believe this, stop using bitcoin now
2462 2011-01-02 14:50:00 <bd_> Exactly how the invalidation occurs is the problem at hand.
2463 2011-01-02 14:50:03 <sipa> helmut: why?
2464 2011-01-02 14:50:13 <helmut> sipa: because it cannot split
2465 2011-01-02 14:50:14 <bd_> You might use a differnt word for it, but this is fundamental to distributed currency systems.
2466 2011-01-02 14:50:25 <helmut> sipa: so you are doomed if you continue using bitcoin
2467 2011-01-02 14:50:26 <sipa> not the way it is done right now, no
2468 2011-01-02 14:50:29 <edcba> know is not same as process :)
2469 2011-01-02 14:50:37 <TD> bitcoin won't have to handle millions of transactions per second within our lifetimes
2470 2011-01-02 14:50:56 <TD> consider that visa, which is the largest digital payment network in the world, only handles around 2000 tps average
2471 2011-01-02 14:51:15 <sipa> only 2000/s?
2472 2011-01-02 14:51:17 <sipa> wow
2473 2011-01-02 14:51:24 <edcba> not what i did read TD
2474 2011-01-02 14:51:29 <TD> the only way you can possibly reach millions of tps is if you assume bitcoin replaces not only all existing online payment networks, but also all cash transactions that take place in meatspace for ALL countries, and probably that we colonize mars too
2475 2011-01-02 14:51:36 <TD> yes
2476 2011-01-02 14:51:49 <edcba> or maybe but 2000/s means a lot by day :)
2477 2011-01-02 14:52:18 <edcba> about 173M
2478 2011-01-02 14:52:23 <bd_> 1,200,000 per 10 minutes... that's a lot of bandwidth :)
2479 2011-01-02 14:52:33 <bonsaikitten> also - average vs. peak
2480 2011-01-02 14:52:59 <bonsaikitten> hmm. that would also mean that all online banking systems should be able to handle transfers in under 5 minutes easily
2481 2011-01-02 14:53:01 <TD> yes, rule of thumb, double to reach peak
2482 2011-01-02 14:53:09 <bonsaikitten> sometimes I hate thinking about such things
2483 2011-01-02 14:53:10 <TD> see some calculations i did in this thread
2484 2011-01-02 14:53:10 <TD> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2454.40
2485 2011-01-02 14:53:13 <bitbot> Micropayments?
2486 2011-01-02 14:53:17 <TD> it's really not a big deal today.
2487 2011-01-02 14:53:18 <bd_> bonsaikitten: the only reason they don't is because they profit off float :)
2488 2011-01-02 14:53:37 <bonsaikitten> bd_: stop making me frustrated :)
2489 2011-01-02 14:53:57 <bd_> there's really no reason a money transfer can't be executed in a few seconds - it's just a simple matter of doing a two-phase commit protocol after all
2490 2011-01-02 14:54:11 <bd_> there's also the problem of legacy systems of course
2491 2011-01-02 14:54:29 <bd_> plenty of banks still using mainframes running COBOL programs first written in the 70s
2492 2011-01-02 14:54:35 <TD> bd_: it's only a lot of bandwidth if you assume bitcoin continues to run out of peoples living rooms. for any reasonable organization it's a fairly trivial amount of bandwidth. see the calcs in the thread.
2493 2011-01-02 14:54:53 <TD> anyway. i'm gonna get some fresh air. laters
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2496 2011-01-02 14:59:24 <bonsaikitten> bd_: these mainframes may be old, but they are throughput monsters
2497 2011-01-02 14:59:43 <bonsaikitten> I would not expect them to notice 5k txn/sec
2498 2011-01-02 14:59:50 <bonsaikitten> (background noise)
2499 2011-01-02 15:00:56 <bd_> sure, but the programs running on them are still in the batch oriented mindset of the time, I expect
2500 2011-01-02 15:05:13 <edcba> when you have a lot of data and centralized access you can't really do otherwise i guess
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2521 2011-01-02 16:20:26 <mizerydearia> Using Bitcoin Control Panel I see that one of my accounts has a high positive balance, even higher than the total balance of the current client.  The reason this is is because I initially used sendtoaddress method instead of sendfrom method.  I would like to manually correct this data by adjusting transactions that I sent to be referenced or included in the account and therefore reducing the balance to the amount that it should be
2522 2011-01-02 16:20:27 <mizerydearia> .  I do not see any methods that provide this ability, however.  Is this possible as of yet?
2523 2011-01-02 16:21:04 int0x27h has joined
2524 2011-01-02 16:21:06 <mizerydearia> e.g. the specific account shows balance of 50.00 but the "" account shows a negative balance.
2525 2011-01-02 16:21:22 <mizerydearia> I would like to adjust transactions from the "" account to be directed or included as the specific account.
2526 2011-01-02 16:22:52 <mizerydearia> e.g. I would like to take -50.0 balance worth of transactions from "" account and associate them with the specific account.
2527 2011-01-02 16:24:16 <mizerydearia> I see that I can use the move method for moving balances from an account with a positive balance to an account with any balance.
2528 2011-01-02 16:24:46 <mizerydearia> However, it would be convenient if I could do the opposite and use move method to move amoutns from an account with a negative balance and apply it to an account with a positive (or any other) balance.
2529 2011-01-02 16:24:55 <mizerydearia> s/any other/even negative/
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2536 2011-01-02 16:54:01 <lfm> hey Gavin Mizery just had a big question about accounts and balances that you might be the expert on, he should repeat it for ya
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2541 2011-01-02 17:10:15 <gavinandresen> lfm: chat logs to the rescue..... I see the question
2542 2011-01-02 17:10:43 <gavinandresen> mizerydearia:  you want to retroactively change a "sendtoaddress" to a "sendfrom"....
2543 2011-01-02 17:11:08 james_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2544 2011-01-02 17:11:46 <gavinandresen> mizerydearia:  There's no way to do that.  Best you can do is to use 'move' to adjust the account balances, maybe with a comment referencing the transaction id of the sendtoaddress that you're adjusting for.
2545 2011-01-02 17:12:22 james_ has joined
2546 2011-01-02 17:13:08 <gavinandresen> mizerydearia: ... and you can always move any amount from the "" account....
2547 2011-01-02 17:14:09 nanotube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2549 2011-01-02 17:18:06 <mizerydearia> hmm
2550 2011-01-02 17:21:17 <mizerydearia> I understand that as of now there is no way to accomplish that functionaility, but is there potential to provide that functionality with a patch?  Is that kind of functionality potentially useful or is it unnecessary?
2551 2011-01-02 17:22:01 <mizerydearia> I agree that not using sendtoaddress and instead using sendfrom is best practice from here on forward, however, in regards to transactions that have previously used sendtoaddress.
2552 2011-01-02 17:23:17 <gavinandresen> I'm biased against adding features that are "use them once to fix up a mistake that could have been avoided"....
2553 2011-01-02 17:23:51 <mizerydearia> Mmkay
2554 2011-01-02 17:24:47 <mizerydearia> I am still learning better usage of Bitcoin and I agree that I should have learned the functionality before inmplementing using Bitcoin in production environments.
2555 2011-01-02 17:24:56 <gavinandresen> That said, it wouldn't be horribly hard to teach bitcointools to rewrite a wallet file to change the sendaddress for certain transactions.  That aught to do what you want.
2556 2011-01-02 17:25:04 genjix has joined
2557 2011-01-02 17:25:41 <gavinandresen> (I recently committed a bitcointools script that rewrote a wallet file, omitting any key/value pairs that it couldn't parse properly)
2558 2011-01-02 17:25:55 <TD> bitcointools is the business. it's pretty easy to adapt.
2559 2011-01-02 17:25:57 <mizerydearia> gavinandresen, Btw, have you glanced at the web-based project I designed?
2560 2011-01-02 17:26:01 <TD> i wrote a little extension to let it dump the keypairs
2561 2011-01-02 17:26:12 <TD> was very easy
2562 2011-01-02 17:26:12 <ThomasV> where ?
2563 2011-01-02 17:26:55 <mizerydearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2546.0
2564 2011-01-02 17:26:58 <bitbot> Bitcoin Control Panel
2565 2011-01-02 17:27:03 <gavinandresen> mizerdearia:  I glanced at it-- seems nifty!  I'd still like to see a pure-javascript version, so people not running a PHP webserver could do something similar....
2566 2011-01-02 17:27:12 <mizerydearia> mm
2567 2011-01-02 17:27:57 <mizerydearia> Well, actually, that could be possible.
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2571 2011-01-02 17:28:33 <ThomasV> TD: where is your extension available ?
2572 2011-01-02 17:28:42 james is now known as Guest23661
2573 2011-01-02 17:28:50 <tcatm> gavinandresen: Can you make a patch to support jsonp?
2574 2011-01-02 17:28:57 <genjix> chroot: cannot change root directory to .: Operation not permitted
2575 2011-01-02 17:29:01 <genjix> ^ any ideas to get around this?
2576 2011-01-02 17:29:09 <TD> ThomasV: it's just local. i could send you a patch if you like, but it's not that useful on its own as there's no import side :-)
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2578 2011-01-02 17:29:24 <TD> also the format it dumps the keys is hex encoded data buffers
2579 2011-01-02 17:29:32 <TD> you need additional ASN.1 parsing to extract the private key
2580 2011-01-02 17:29:42 <gavinandresen> tcatm: sure... if i do, will you volunteer to do the JS ?
2581 2011-01-02 17:29:49 <tcatm> yep
2582 2011-01-02 17:30:26 <ThomasV> mizerydearia: why did you use php ?
2583 2011-01-02 17:30:59 <gavinandresen> tcatm: deal.  I'll make a patch in the next day or two.
2584 2011-01-02 17:31:43 <gavinandresen> genjix: chroot needs an absolute, canonical path, doesn't it?
2585 2011-01-02 17:32:55 gavinandresen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2586 2011-01-02 17:32:58 gavinandresen_ has joined
2587 2011-01-02 17:33:12 <gavinandresen_> d'oh, gotta replace that ethernet cable....
2588 2011-01-02 17:34:16 <genjix> doesn't help chroot with absolute path... still needs root somehow
2589 2011-01-02 17:34:23 <genjix> not sure why an admin would disable this for me
2590 2011-01-02 17:34:48 <tcatm> gavinandresen_: would it be possible to cache getnewaddress so the javainterfaces doesn't create lots of unused addresses?
2591 2011-01-02 17:35:42 tg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2592 2011-01-02 17:35:44 <gavinandresen_> tcatm: Can you just use getaccountaddress instead?
2593 2011-01-02 17:35:56 tg has joined
2594 2011-01-02 17:36:22 <gavinandresen_> tcatm: getnewaddress is meant for when you really and truly do want a brand-new address.
2595 2011-01-02 17:36:42 fabianhjr has joined
2596 2011-01-02 17:36:47 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
2597 2011-01-02 17:36:48 <tcatm> didn't know that getaccountaddress existed. that solves the problem
2598 2011-01-02 17:39:58 <TD> genjix: well you can only chroot if you run as root, iirc
2599 2011-01-02 17:40:00 <TD> it's a protected operation
2600 2011-01-02 17:40:14 <TD> genjix: see the man page
2601 2011-01-02 17:40:16 <genjix> how can i work around this?
2602 2011-01-02 17:40:26 <genjix> maybe start bash so it works with relative paths?
2603 2011-01-02 17:40:42 <mizerydearia> ThomasV, I didn't consider a javascript only implementation.
2604 2011-01-02 17:40:46 <mizerydearia> At least not until now.
2605 2011-01-02 17:41:07 james_ has joined
2606 2011-01-02 17:41:41 <ThomasV> mizerydearia: yes, but why php ? you could generate html directly
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2608 2011-01-02 17:42:19 <mizerydearia> So as to store the password and username in a secured non web accessible location.
2609 2011-01-02 17:42:40 <mizerydearia> However, that information can be prompted for as well.
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2621 2011-01-02 18:28:12 <kiba> why are libertarians so future-forward looking?
2622 2011-01-02 18:28:56 <EvanR> as in us libertarian party?
2623 2011-01-02 18:29:44 Slix` has joined
2624 2011-01-02 18:29:49 <kiba> no.
2625 2011-01-02 18:30:00 <fabianhjr> kiba: maybe because the real world is for people who can't imagine a better place. :P
2626 2011-01-02 18:30:08 <kiba> radical life extension
2627 2011-01-02 18:30:11 <kiba> seasteading
2628 2011-01-02 18:30:13 <kiba> bitcoin
2629 2011-01-02 18:30:16 <kiba> singularity
2630 2011-01-02 18:30:21 <kiba> extropianism
2631 2011-01-02 18:30:24 <kiba> cyberpunks
2632 2011-01-02 18:30:29 <Cusipzzz> but where are my flying cars?
2633 2011-01-02 18:30:30 <kiba> cypherpunks*
2634 2011-01-02 18:30:39 <fabianhjr> kiba: social money(Whuffies)
2635 2011-01-02 18:30:47 <EvanR> sounds more like futurologtarians
2636 2011-01-02 18:31:01 <fabianhjr> kiba: ad hocs
2637 2011-01-02 18:31:15 <slush1> sipa: Today were many small outages of pool, I'm sorry. It should be more stable from now
2638 2011-01-02 18:31:18 <kiba> EvanR: it's true! Libertarians are like everywhere in radical or crazy technological ideas
2639 2011-01-02 18:31:55 <EvanR> space electors, venus cloud colonies
2640 2011-01-02 18:32:06 <EvanR> elevators*
2641 2011-01-02 18:32:30 <EvanR> these are divisive issues
2642 2011-01-02 18:32:53 * kiba shrugs
2643 2011-01-02 18:33:03 slush1 is now known as slush
2644 2011-01-02 18:33:07 <fabianhjr> kiba: It is because if they work they will change everything forever. Like Bitcoin is changing money forever.
2645 2011-01-02 18:33:20 slush has quit (Changing host)
2646 2011-01-02 18:33:20 slush has joined
2647 2011-01-02 18:33:34 <fabianhjr> slush: Hey, thanks for my second pooled mining payment. Now I have like 11 BTC. :)\
2648 2011-01-02 18:33:37 <ThomasV> fabianhjr: if bitcoin works
2649 2011-01-02 18:34:01 <slush> :)
2650 2011-01-02 18:34:03 <fabianhjr> ThomasV: Bitcoin works. It already changed money. If it becomes mainstream is another thing. :P
2651 2011-01-02 18:34:54 <Cusipzzz> bitcoin may not make the leap, but something similar certainly will
2652 2011-01-02 18:35:02 <kiba> it had not changed money until it anger the world powers
2653 2011-01-02 18:35:09 <fabianhjr> Hey, is anybody interested in a crowdfunding platform with Bitcoins? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2558.0
2654 2011-01-02 18:35:11 <bitbot> Bitcoin Crowdfunding(Open Source) - Pledge 30 BTC
2655 2011-01-02 18:35:39 <kiba> so you're crowdfunding for a crowdfunding platform
2656 2011-01-02 18:35:53 <fabianhjr> kiba: they are already with nervous ticks. If they move a finger the world will see it and a slashdot effect will happen.
2657 2011-01-02 18:35:58 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2658 2011-01-02 18:36:00 <kiba> in a crowdforuming section
2659 2011-01-02 18:36:19 <kiba> we already have a slashdot effect
2660 2011-01-02 18:36:22 <fabianhjr> kiba: that section is more of a crowdsourcing one. :P
2661 2011-01-02 18:36:26 <fabianhjr> Quite different.
2662 2011-01-02 18:36:59 <fabianhjr> kiba: another one? What happens if we get to the fronpage of The Guardian, BBC News, Times Magazine and others?
2663 2011-01-02 18:37:16 james has joined
2664 2011-01-02 18:37:22 <kiba> simple, sirus will do a memory upgrade1
2665 2011-01-02 18:37:28 <kiba> s/upgrade1/upgrade!
2666 2011-01-02 18:37:42 james is now known as Guest95061
2667 2011-01-02 18:37:48 <fabianhjr> kiba: LOL
2668 2011-01-02 18:38:01 <fabianhjr> BRB, breakfast is calling.
2669 2011-01-02 18:38:16 <DjeZAeL> breakfast ? o_O
2670 2011-01-02 18:38:22 <ThomasV> we'll make the frontpage when criminals use btc
2671 2011-01-02 18:40:00 <Cusipzzz> no..when the govt gets nervous, they will CLAIM it is being used by 'terrorists'
2672 2011-01-02 18:40:56 <EvanR> probably already is
2673 2011-01-02 18:41:07 <ThomasV> hehe
2674 2011-01-02 18:41:10 <EvanR> see the nodes in the middle east xD
2675 2011-01-02 18:41:21 <Cusipzzz> shhh... don't point out that node at Tora Bora, afghanistan
2676 2011-01-02 18:41:57 * EvanR looks suspiciously at the obvious fbi lurker in the room
2677 2011-01-02 18:43:10 <kiba> blah, criminal are obviously already successful with the money they're using
2678 2011-01-02 18:44:10 <kiba> they're the underbelly of society
2679 2011-01-02 18:44:17 <kiba> they will get by bitcoin or not
2680 2011-01-02 18:44:49 <TheAncientGoat> Obvious fbi lurker?
2681 2011-01-02 18:45:30 FBI has joined
2682 2011-01-02 18:45:37 <FBI> sorry, stepped out for a bit
2683 2011-01-02 18:46:17 <kiba> http://ar.to/2011/01/unlicense-1st-year
2684 2011-01-02 18:46:21 <kiba> Mike appears again!
2685 2011-01-02 18:46:34 <EvanR> lol
2686 2011-01-02 18:46:48 <fabianhjr> back
2687 2011-01-02 18:47:05 <EvanR> FBI: youre cool with bitcoin, right?
2688 2011-01-02 18:47:23 <TheAncientGoat> XD
2689 2011-01-02 18:47:55 <FBI> unless there are terrorists using it, sure
2690 2011-01-02 18:47:59 <FBI> EvanR: are you a terrorist?
2691 2011-01-02 18:48:05 <EvanR> no
2692 2011-01-02 18:48:19 <FBI> then i'll just step back and carry on lurking
2693 2011-01-02 18:48:25 <FBI> AnonymousUser: you are relieved of duty. i'll take this shift.
2694 2011-01-02 18:48:43 <EvanR> lol
2695 2011-01-02 18:49:15 <EvanR> protip, if theres terrorists using it, go after the terrorists, not it
2696 2011-01-02 18:49:18 <fabianhjr> lol, I thought you were going to call him part of  the AnonOps. xD
2697 2011-01-02 18:50:06 <Cusipzzz> lol
2698 2011-01-02 18:51:49 scibotic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2699 2011-01-02 18:52:15 <fabianhjr> FBI: go against the russians. They got something in hands. lol. I cannot understand a word from them. xD
2700 2011-01-02 18:52:36 Myckel has joined
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2703 2011-01-02 18:52:52 <dwdollar> sieg heil, long live the king, long live the communist revolution and all that good stuff
2704 2011-01-02 18:53:07 <dwdollar> down with the raghead terrorists
2705 2011-01-02 18:53:23 <dwdollar> bankers are good
2706 2011-01-02 18:54:36 <EvanR> its good to be king
2707 2011-01-02 18:54:53 <kiba> some people are very passionate about their hatred...
2708 2011-01-02 18:55:06 <kiba> EvanR: except when there assassination attempt on your life
2709 2011-01-02 18:55:12 <kiba> keeping power is hard work
2710 2011-01-02 18:55:27 <EvanR> or you die and your idiot children take over
2711 2011-01-02 18:56:16 <AnonymousUser> huh, someone mentioned my name
2712 2011-01-02 18:56:38 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2713 2011-01-02 18:56:40 <AnonymousUser> o.  because my name is suspicious.  got it
2714 2011-01-02 18:57:16 fabianhjr has joined
2715 2011-01-02 18:57:20 <fabianhjr> sorry a blackout
2716 2011-01-02 18:58:04 <fabianhjr> slush: do you have experience with WordPress? I need to set up a theme(flexibility3) and have some issues. It doesn't go past the "upacking" phase.
2717 2011-01-02 18:58:21 <fabianhjr> Had been waiting 1 hour+ and nothing.
2718 2011-01-02 18:58:43 <nanotube> nameless|: Xunie: ping, my vps died, lost ops. :)
2719 2011-01-02 18:58:57 <fabianhjr> Hi nanotube :)
2720 2011-01-02 18:59:01 <slush> fabianhjr: I don't work with WP, so if you don't have any error message, I cannot help you :(
2721 2011-01-02 18:59:07 james_ has joined
2722 2011-01-02 18:59:09 <slush> fabianhjr: But I'm pretty familiar with PHP
2723 2011-01-02 18:59:18 <fabianhjr> slush: ok thanks anyways. :P
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2725 2011-01-02 18:59:48 <fabianhjr> kiba: what about you? Had you used wordpress before?
2726 2011-01-02 19:00:35 <nanotube> fabianhjr: howdy :)
2727 2011-01-02 19:01:23 <fabianhjr> nanotube: good thanks. :) You?
2728 2011-01-02 19:01:38 <nanotube> same old ;)
2729 2011-01-02 19:02:09 <fabianhjr> lol, how so?
2730 2011-01-02 19:02:14 marioxcc has joined
2731 2011-01-02 19:02:50 <fabianhjr> nanotube: had you used WP before?
2732 2011-01-02 19:03:25 <marioxcc> what's up people?
2733 2011-01-02 19:04:09 <nanotube> fabianhjr: yes... sure, why?
2734 2011-01-02 19:04:11 <nanotube> marioxcc: howdy
2735 2011-01-02 19:04:18 <nanotube> fabianhjr: you signed up on raindroplet?
2736 2011-01-02 19:04:18 <marioxcc> nanotube: hello
2737 2011-01-02 19:04:31 <marioxcc> what's the topic of the day?
2738 2011-01-02 19:05:02 <nanotube> bitcoin, i guess :)
2739 2011-01-02 19:05:18 <kiba> fabianhjr: no
2740 2011-01-02 19:05:21 <marioxcc> something more specific?
2741 2011-01-02 19:05:27 <kiba> I used it but I wouldn't help you
2742 2011-01-02 19:05:41 <nanotube> fabianhjr: oh you mean wordpress, not wikipedia. hehe in that case, no not really.
2743 2011-01-02 19:05:54 <fabianhjr> Oh, ok then. xD
2744 2011-01-02 19:10:15 * marioxcc wonders why someone bothers himself to say "I did x" if he don't wants to help
2745 2011-01-02 19:12:28 <sgornick> marioxcc: How about this topic:  I wonder what happened to  www.MyBitcoin.com
2746 2011-01-02 19:12:48 <marioxcc> sgornick: interesting
2747 2011-01-02 19:12:57 <marioxcc> they had a onion address too
2748 2011-01-02 19:13:03 <marioxcc> maybe it is still active
2749 2011-01-02 19:13:07 <marioxcc> but I don't remember
2750 2011-01-02 19:13:11 <marioxcc> what one it was
2751 2011-01-02 19:14:14 * MT`AwAy pokes jgarzik again
2752 2011-01-02 19:17:24 <EvanR> mybitcoin is still there isnt it?
2753 2011-01-02 19:17:58 <nanotube> it's down at the moment
2754 2011-01-02 19:19:00 <EvanR> the webpage isnt
2755 2011-01-02 19:19:21 <nanotube> i can't access... or couldn't a couple minutes ago
2756 2011-01-02 19:19:25 <nanotube> ;;isitdown mybitcoin.com
2757 2011-01-02 19:19:30 <gribble> http://mybitcoin.com Is Down -> Check if your website is up or down?
2758 2011-01-02 19:19:59 <EvanR> https://www.mybitcoin.com/
2759 2011-01-02 19:20:04 <MT`AwAy> https://www.mybitcoin.com/ <- it's up here
2760 2011-01-02 19:20:33 <nanotube> ah, it's down with just http
2761 2011-01-02 19:20:36 <nanotube> but https works
2762 2011-01-02 19:21:26 <MT`AwAy> nah
2763 2011-01-02 19:21:30 <MT`AwAy> it's down if you don't put the www
2764 2011-01-02 19:21:38 <MT`AwAy> at least port 80 is open
2765 2011-01-02 19:21:42 <MT`AwAy> or seems so
2766 2011-01-02 19:21:51 <MT`AwAy> mh
2767 2011-01-02 19:21:54 <MT`AwAy> ah no it's my proxy
2768 2011-01-02 19:21:54 <MT`AwAy> x
2769 2011-01-02 19:21:55 <MT`AwAy> XD
2770 2011-01-02 19:22:29 james__ has joined
2771 2011-01-02 19:22:46 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2772 2011-01-02 19:24:18 <xelister> hi FBI \o
2773 2011-01-02 19:24:48 Bth8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2774 2011-01-02 19:24:49 <xelister> FBI:  when are you going to finalli bag the terroris Satoshi? Will you get him Ikea style or what?
2775 2011-01-02 19:26:01 <marioxcc> haha, terrorist satoshi
2776 2011-01-02 19:26:43 <fabianhjr> lol, at least we will see if he is a she or a he. The FBI must have pics. xD
2777 2011-01-02 19:27:06 <sipa> whatever you think you know about this man is irrelevant
2778 2011-01-02 19:27:27 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2779 2011-01-02 19:27:37 <marioxcc> satoshi isn't probably his real identity
2780 2011-01-02 19:27:58 <sipa> he is considered by many authorities to be the most dangerous man alive!
2781 2011-01-02 19:28:35 <ThomasV> his real name is Madoff
2782 2011-01-02 19:30:43 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2783 2011-01-02 19:33:15 <EvanR> lol
2784 2011-01-02 19:34:23 <EvanR> he isnt a he. he isnt japanese. he doesnt have endless bitcoins. he didnt even invent bitcoin. hes just a front
2785 2011-01-02 19:34:27 <EvanR> a scapegoat
2786 2011-01-02 19:34:40 <EvanR> someone to target
2787 2011-01-02 19:35:12 <marioxcc> satoshi don't exists
2788 2011-01-02 19:35:26 <marioxcc> there is a group of people behind bitcon
2789 2011-01-02 19:35:27 <fabianhjr> EvanR how you know that? You must be the one behind it alL!
2790 2011-01-02 19:35:31 <marioxcc> which plays satoshi
2791 2011-01-02 19:35:34 <EvanR> of course im not
2792 2011-01-02 19:35:43 <marioxcc> how we know?
2793 2011-01-02 19:35:49 <fabianhjr> EvanR: see! Now you are negating everything!
2794 2011-01-02 19:36:02 <EvanR> rule 1 is when you think you have something figured out, you are automatically wrong
2795 2011-01-02 19:36:45 <marioxcc> murphy laws?
2796 2011-01-02 19:37:21 <fabianhjr> EvanR: so you are wrong since the rule number one is that there are now rules. xD
2797 2011-01-02 19:37:29 <fabianhjr> s/now/no/
2798 2011-01-02 19:38:11 <EvanR> rule 2 is equal to rule 1, for dramatic emphasis
2799 2011-01-02 19:38:13 <marioxcc> a smart observer will notice we don't have too much to do
2800 2011-01-02 19:38:16 <sipa> fabianhjr: if you think you know that rule, you are wrong
2801 2011-01-02 19:38:20 james has joined
2802 2011-01-02 19:38:29 james__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2803 2011-01-02 19:38:47 james is now known as Guest16195
2804 2011-01-02 19:38:53 <fabianhjr> sipa: lmao, ok you win. Lets forgot about the rules.
2805 2011-01-02 19:42:39 <lfm> ruke 3 there is no ..
2806 2011-01-02 19:42:43 <lfm> rule 3
2807 2011-01-02 19:47:51 akem has joined
2808 2011-01-02 19:47:51 akem has quit (Changing host)
2809 2011-01-02 19:47:51 akem has joined
2810 2011-01-02 19:50:31 xelister has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2811 2011-01-02 19:50:57 xelister has joined
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2814 2011-01-02 19:59:06 RazielZ has quit ()
2815 2011-01-02 19:59:37 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 0.15
2816 2011-01-02 19:59:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 0.15 Khps, given current difficulty of 14484.16236123 , is 13150 years, 46 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 36 minutes, and 43 seconds
2817 2011-01-02 19:59:51 <fabianhjr> LOL
2818 2011-01-02 20:02:54 grondilu has joined
2819 2011-01-02 20:03:57 <nanotube> haha
2820 2011-01-02 20:04:35 fabianhjr_ has joined
2821 2011-01-02 20:04:35 fabianhjr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2822 2011-01-02 20:04:36 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
2823 2011-01-02 20:04:40 <EvanR> whats that, a 386
2824 2011-01-02 20:09:41 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2825 2011-01-02 20:11:21 EvanR has joined
2826 2011-01-02 20:11:21 EvanR has quit (Changing host)
2827 2011-01-02 20:11:21 EvanR has joined
2828 2011-01-02 20:12:06 paul0 has joined
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2830 2011-01-02 20:13:51 james_ has joined
2831 2011-01-02 20:13:51 <xelister> blaaargh
2832 2011-01-02 20:14:31 <xelister> Ati is shit
2833 2011-01-02 20:14:53 <xelister> 100 BTC to whoever toilerpaper's house of Ati software division CEO
2834 2011-01-02 20:15:12 hundfred has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2835 2011-01-02 20:15:27 <EvanR> lol xelister just put a hit out on a CEO
2836 2011-01-02 20:15:43 <EvanR> bitcoin is getting serious
2837 2011-01-02 20:15:50 <xelister> 100000 btc to hit Ati software ceo lol
2838 2011-01-02 20:16:14 <EvanR> how much to kill him?
2839 2011-01-02 20:16:20 <xelister> shit-software:  silverlight < flash < ati driver
2840 2011-01-02 20:19:54 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2841 2011-01-02 20:20:34 <mizerydearia> I have been investigating how I can communicate with Bitcoin HTTP JSON-RPC server using JavaScript, and I think http://plugins.jquery.com/plugin-tags/json-rpc will allow for it, however, I do not understand what endPoint or namespace is.
2842 2011-01-02 20:20:59 <mizerydearia> Would I be able to pass http://user:pass@host:port" as endPoint?
2843 2011-01-02 20:22:07 <tcatm> mizerydearia: wait until gavin adds JSONP support
2844 2011-01-02 20:22:18 <mizerydearia> ooh, what's that?
2845 2011-01-02 20:22:40 <tcatm> JS can't access the current JSON-RPC interface (except if bitcoin would include a webserver)
2846 2011-01-02 20:22:45 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: ping
2847 2011-01-02 20:22:56 <tcatm> JSONP is a hack to get around that problem
2848 2011-01-02 20:22:59 <mizerydearia> hmm
2849 2011-01-02 20:23:37 <mizerydearia> Ah, to allow the client to load JSON-encoded data from third-party domains
2850 2011-01-02 20:24:23 <mizerydearia> actually, nm
2851 2011-01-02 20:24:39 <mizerydearia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON#JSONP
2852 2011-01-02 20:26:08 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2853 2011-01-02 20:26:42 FBI has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2854 2011-01-02 20:28:54 devon_hillard has joined
2855 2011-01-02 20:33:44 <fabianhjr> Should I try to convince a
2856 2011-01-02 20:34:16 <fabianhjr> skiddie forum with over 100K active members to use Bitcoin?
2857 2011-01-02 20:34:25 <kiba> hmm
2858 2011-01-02 20:34:32 <kiba> script kiddie?
2859 2011-01-02 20:34:58 <fabianhjr> Yeah, that. They are ugly however I am sure they could give a boost to the economy.
2860 2011-01-02 20:35:01 <kiba> I don't have time to deal with immature
2861 2011-01-02 20:35:25 <tcatm> fabianhjr: It's worth a try.
2862 2011-01-02 20:35:30 <kiba> they spoil the goodname of hackerdom!
2863 2011-01-02 20:35:33 <fabianhjr> I know they are ugly and inmature. Though, they would boost the BTC vs USD and the trade volume.
2864 2011-01-02 20:35:37 <Cusipzzz> lol go for it.
2865 2011-01-02 20:35:50 <Cusipzzz> the more the merrier (except wikileaks)
2866 2011-01-02 20:35:53 <fabianhjr> kiba: I know. That's why I would like to use them for a good cause.
2867 2011-01-02 20:36:31 * kiba is not amused
2868 2011-01-02 20:36:51 <fabianhjr> :/ Though, they might flood the forums or attempt to DDoS it as far as I am concerned. That's why I am doubting.
2869 2011-01-02 20:37:25 <Cusipzzz> they might start a mining botnet and snag all the coins, oh noes
2870 2011-01-02 20:37:41 <larsig> haha
2871 2011-01-02 20:37:42 <fabianhjr> Cusipzzz: I am not really concerned of that.
2872 2011-01-02 20:37:44 <larsig> invite them
2873 2011-01-02 20:38:07 <fabianhjr> :/ Expect downtime of the forums.
2874 2011-01-02 20:38:19 <Cusipzzz> lol
2875 2011-01-02 20:38:34 <Cusipzzz> will be a good test for us, to prepare for when the NSA tries to shut it down..
2876 2011-01-02 20:38:41 <kiba> Why would you want bitcoiners to be associated with a bunch of unethical script kiddie
2877 2011-01-02 20:39:13 james has joined
2878 2011-01-02 20:39:19 <Cusipzzz> next up, 4chan
2879 2011-01-02 20:39:35 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2880 2011-01-02 20:39:38 james is now known as Guest7736
2881 2011-01-02 20:39:41 <fabianhjr> kiba: that could really give a boost in the Bitcoin economy. It is a great demographic. Many suffer PayPals wrath and other need a more anonymous solution.
2882 2011-01-02 20:39:47 <kiba> fabianhjr: you might want to consult the forum first
2883 2011-01-02 20:39:47 <larsig> what will script kiddies do to piss someone off?
2884 2011-01-02 20:40:18 <kiba> let try to stay under the radar for the time being
2885 2011-01-02 20:40:20 <Cusipzzz> 4chan, 2600, script kids, bring em all !
2886 2011-01-02 20:40:35 <Cusipzzz> give us your tired, poor, masses yearning to be anonymous
2887 2011-01-02 20:40:37 <fabianhjr> larsig: they will troll/ flood/ spam/ attempt to DDoS/ rage.
2888 2011-01-02 20:41:44 <fabianhjr> larsig: as far as I am aware they will shot us with all they got if I am wrong or they misunderstand a single bit of what I type.
2889 2011-01-02 20:42:25 <fabianhjr> kiba: So we have a current hashrate of 115 GHashes/sec right?
2890 2011-01-02 20:42:46 <nanotube> fabianhjr: heh, i'd say, stay away from them... with time, they might filter in on their own. no need to specifically go courting.
2891 2011-01-02 20:43:09 <larsig> so you are talking about the bitcoin forums and the irc channels as targets then?
2892 2011-01-02 20:43:45 <fabianhjr> larsig yeah. That is what I am more worried for. Well, the forum is back up by SourceForge.
2893 2011-01-02 20:43:59 <kiba> backed up by sourceforge?
2894 2011-01-02 20:44:01 <fabianhjr> The IRC by FreeNode, my favourite IRC network.
2895 2011-01-02 20:44:12 <kiba> as far as I am aware, the forum is on linode
2896 2011-01-02 20:44:14 <fabianhjr> kiba: it is host by Sourceforg.net right?
2897 2011-01-02 20:44:23 <kiba> and then backed up by several other volunteer servers
2898 2011-01-02 20:44:28 <kiba> fabianhjr: the codebase, download, yes
2899 2011-01-02 20:45:09 <fabianhjr> I am also concerned that $115000 is enough to take over the network.(230 5970s)
2900 2011-01-02 20:45:46 <kiba> clearly we need more CPU
2901 2011-01-02 20:46:35 <sipa> clearly we need more GPU
2902 2011-01-02 20:46:47 <marioxcc> they still can build ASICs
2903 2011-01-02 20:46:53 <fabianhjr> kiba: more GPU. They are the workhorse right now. I mean, the 5970s are the more economically feasible and more efficient solution.
2904 2011-01-02 20:46:53 <marioxcc> like the EFF DES cracker
2905 2011-01-02 20:47:32 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: we can also. The only defense is that 2/3 of the forum are actually honest and that would massively strength the network.
2906 2011-01-02 20:48:03 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: would they build ASICs too?
2907 2011-01-02 20:48:05 <kiba> spammers don't have any incentive to be dishonest
2908 2011-01-02 20:48:09 <marioxcc> i really dobut so
2909 2011-01-02 20:48:26 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: they are over 100K members I will assume they can.
2910 2011-01-02 20:48:45 <kiba> some of them can
2911 2011-01-02 20:48:45 <marioxcc> not everyone is active
2912 2011-01-02 20:48:59 <fabianhjr> No, yet we must reduce risks.
2913 2011-01-02 20:49:13 <kiba> than add more CPU/GPU to the network
2914 2011-01-02 20:49:21 <fabianhjr> So we had an 15 GHash/sec fold over the week right?
2915 2011-01-02 20:49:25 <kiba> put all your computer to work
2916 2011-01-02 20:49:38 <marioxcc> hey
2917 2011-01-02 20:49:45 <fabianhjr> kiba: better yet. Involve everyone you know. Bring them all.
2918 2011-01-02 20:49:53 <marioxcc> bean in mind an mass produced ASIC can be extemely efficient and cheap
2919 2011-01-02 20:49:55 <lucky> hmm, python is really nice to hack stuff in.
2920 2011-01-02 20:50:00 <kiba> well
2921 2011-01-02 20:50:06 <marioxcc> *bear
2922 2011-01-02 20:50:13 <marioxcc> which is what an atacker will probably do
2923 2011-01-02 20:50:17 <kiba> with time, it's going to be become only more difficult to attack via bringing raw GPU
2924 2011-01-02 20:50:18 <kiba> powre
2925 2011-01-02 20:50:43 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: how much would it cost to archieve 200 Ghashes/sec on your scenario?
2926 2011-01-02 20:50:52 <kiba> isn't ArtForz investing money into some kind of mass produced specialized hashing cruncher?
2927 2011-01-02 20:51:05 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: I don't know
2928 2011-01-02 20:51:14 <marioxcc> but the EFF cracker wasn't so expensive
2929 2011-01-02 20:51:14 <fabianhjr> kiba: I believe he only did circuit simulation.
2930 2011-01-02 20:51:29 <marioxcc> and technolgy/market have also advanced since then
2931 2011-01-02 20:51:30 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: how much are we talking about and what is the hash rate?
2932 2011-01-02 20:51:33 int0x27h has quit (Changing host)
2933 2011-01-02 20:51:33 int0x27h has joined
2934 2011-01-02 20:51:34 <kiba> well he's going to improve his GPU farm sooner or later with something else
2935 2011-01-02 20:51:54 <fabianhjr> kiba: lol, yeah. He has like 24 5970s right?
2936 2011-01-02 20:51:56 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: the EFF didn't made hashes but DES encryptions
2937 2011-01-02 20:52:28 <fabianhjr> Oh, ok. Then I misunderstood you. Still, we must grow.
2938 2011-01-02 20:53:44 <kiba> growing part will come naturally
2939 2011-01-02 20:53:53 <kiba> remember, we're only a 1.5 million dollars economy
2940 2011-01-02 20:54:16 <marioxcc> kiba: *only*?
2941 2011-01-02 20:54:28 <kiba> based on bitcoinwatch
2942 2011-01-02 20:54:33 <fabianhjr> kiba: What if it fold to 15 Million or more in a short period of time?
2943 2011-01-02 20:54:43 mtgox has joined
2944 2011-01-02 20:54:52 <kiba> that will facilitate and incentive mining operation, fabianhjr
2945 2011-01-02 20:54:53 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: there are 5040 thousand coins * 0.3 USd per coin.
2946 2011-01-02 20:55:06 <marioxcc> fabianhjr: *only*?
2947 2011-01-02 20:55:07 <marioxcc> that's a lot
2948 2011-01-02 20:55:08 <fabianhjr> kiba: indeed it would.
2949 2011-01-02 20:55:21 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: it is not enough.
2950 2011-01-02 20:55:34 <kiba> not enough what?
2951 2011-01-02 20:55:44 <kiba> we're small enough to be unnoticable
2952 2011-01-02 20:55:49 <fabianhjr> To go mainstream.
2953 2011-01-02 20:55:59 <kiba> so we're small a target
2954 2011-01-02 20:56:29 <fabianhjr> kiba: we could be noticed anytime soon. We must grow to the point were an attack is unfeasible.
2955 2011-01-02 20:56:59 <kiba> then grow the economy
2956 2011-01-02 20:57:09 <kiba> grow the economy, you grow the number of miners
2957 2011-01-02 20:57:31 <fabianhjr> I will go for it. Can someone go over 4chan? I believe they got an economy section(Never go to /b/)
2958 2011-01-02 20:57:43 <kiba> discuss it on the forum
2959 2011-01-02 20:57:45 <fabianhjr> My target is HackForums
2960 2011-01-02 20:57:47 <kiba> first
2961 2011-01-02 20:57:57 <kiba> with other people
2962 2011-01-02 20:58:02 <fabianhjr> :/ ok
2963 2011-01-02 20:58:05 <kiba> other than people on IRC
2964 2011-01-02 20:58:49 <fabianhjr> Should I fill it under Economy or Bitcoin Discussion?
2965 2011-01-02 20:59:01 <kiba> it's a promotional effort..
2966 2011-01-02 20:59:05 <kiba> I think Bitcoin discussion
2967 2011-01-02 21:01:44 <fabianhjr> Which targets apart of HackForums and 4chan should I include?
2968 2011-01-02 21:03:00 * kiba doesn't think inviting these kind of people are a good idea
2969 2011-01-02 21:04:16 <Cusipzzz> 2600 forums
2970 2011-01-02 21:05:14 <Cusipzzz> any hack/crack/phreak forums are likely adopters..how do people pay for stolen DVD screeners? 0 day exploits? latest warez? seems a natural market
2971 2011-01-02 21:05:44 Bth8 has joined
2972 2011-01-02 21:05:45 <fabianhjr> Cusipzzz: yeah, thats what I tought, though, it could bring some bad attention from the bad guys.
2973 2011-01-02 21:05:57 <kiba> bad attentions from the media
2974 2011-01-02 21:06:00 <kiba> more heats
2975 2011-01-02 21:06:10 <kiba> like wikileak bringing heat
2976 2011-01-02 21:06:11 <Cusipzzz> we need heat to test the system
2977 2011-01-02 21:06:19 <fabianhjr> I mean the big guys not the bad guys xD
2978 2011-01-02 21:06:48 <kiba> it will be as controversial as wikileak
2979 2011-01-02 21:06:49 <edcba> stupid bad guys
2980 2011-01-02 21:06:54 <fabianhjr> I could see also a lot of warez sites taking over.
2981 2011-01-02 21:06:59 <Cusipzzz> wikileaks is like a nuke bomb.. these guys would be small flamethrowers,and good for the sytem
2982 2011-01-02 21:07:02 <edcba> i doubt bad guys aren't using bitcoin :)
2983 2011-01-02 21:07:46 <fabianhjr> I am sure there are! Though, during my searches, a lot of communities hadn't even heard about Bitcoin yet.
2984 2011-01-02 21:07:57 <kiba> it is dobutful that Satoshi would like the idea, fabianhjr
2985 2011-01-02 21:07:58 <kiba> plus
2986 2011-01-02 21:08:05 <kiba> we have other communities that never heard of bitcoin
2987 2011-01-02 21:08:32 <fabianhjr> kiba: lets organize a promotional campaign then and go for the good communities then. Which ones do you suggest?
2988 2011-01-02 21:08:36 <EvanR> get some good guys to use it
2989 2011-01-02 21:08:39 <edcba> yes if you evilize too much bitcoin regular/business ppl will have hard time using it
2990 2011-01-02 21:08:51 <kiba> fabianhjr: well
2991 2011-01-02 21:09:02 <kiba> I wouldn't barge into a community attempting to promote bitcoin
2992 2011-01-02 21:09:14 <kiba> you would need to be an established member of their community
2993 2011-01-02 21:09:37 <kiba> and actually be a genuine community member
2994 2011-01-02 21:09:49 <edcba> but i think it's not yet time to publicize it too much since we have still some worries about scaling etc
2995 2011-01-02 21:09:54 <fabianhjr> I will title it "Promotional campaign - Computer savvy demography" then and see which suggestions arise.
2996 2011-01-02 21:10:17 <fabianhjr> kiba: np, I had been building some rapport lately. It isn't that hard actually.
2997 2011-01-02 21:10:45 <kiba> it is distrubing to me htat some b itcoiners lack conciousness of social rules
2998 2011-01-02 21:10:53 <kiba> and just barge into other people's forum
2999 2011-01-02 21:11:10 <kiba> and I am an aspie!
3000 2011-01-02 21:11:15 <EvanR> seems the best way to promote is to accept bitcoins as payment
3001 2011-01-02 21:11:31 <EvanR> im thinking of selling some of my stuff locally for bitcoins on craigslist
3002 2011-01-02 21:11:43 <edcba> EvanR: yes having some popular service to use it
3003 2011-01-02 21:11:52 <fabianhjr> kiba: the campaign doesn't need to have effect directly. The campaign is to go to those site, give good content and ask Bitcoins in return and in the process inform them of this great system.
3004 2011-01-02 21:12:11 <kiba> too vague of a plan to judge
3005 2011-01-02 21:12:46 <kiba> it seem like barging into one forum except displaying the "promotional banner"
3006 2011-01-02 21:12:51 <fabianhjr> :/ Well, in the case of HackForums offer coding services for Bitcoins. Giving the anonymous DNS registry and hosting.
3007 2011-01-02 21:13:17 <fabianhjr> Of course within the law.
3008 2011-01-02 21:13:26 * kiba doesn't think it's a good stragtegy
3009 2011-01-02 21:13:48 <kiba> if bitcoiners are actually ESTABLISHED, GENUINE community members, than it could work
3010 2011-01-02 21:14:09 <kiba> but otherwise, you risk reputation flak
3011 2011-01-02 21:14:18 <kiba> that affect ALL of us
3012 2011-01-02 21:14:47 hundfred has joined
3013 2011-01-02 21:15:06 <fabianhjr> :/ Ok, let me think. We have better chances of getting people who know how to use a computer. What about going to Security Focus and all other security experts sites?
3014 2011-01-02 21:16:13 <kiba> how aobut donating to charity?
3015 2011-01-02 21:16:35 <fabianhjr> had been donating to the EFF and the facet some coins.
3016 2011-01-02 21:16:36 <kiba> we got the EFF to accept bitcoin but that's only because someone have personal connection
3017 2011-01-02 21:16:45 <edcba> who was paypal early adopters ?
3018 2011-01-02 21:16:52 <kiba> and it was A LOT of work
3019 2011-01-02 21:17:05 <kiba> and a lot of waiting
3020 2011-01-02 21:17:07 <fabianhjr> edcba: hey, that's a great idea. Let me check.
3021 2011-01-02 21:17:10 <kiba> but it was an effective campaign
3022 2011-01-02 21:17:29 <nanotube> i've seen some fsf people around too
3023 2011-01-02 21:17:48 <fabianhjr> kiba: I am going to donate 10% of all my mining now to the EFF.(For a while)
3024 2011-01-02 21:18:03 <fabianhjr> That is a good start,
3025 2011-01-02 21:18:16 <kiba> now that I think about it
3026 2011-01-02 21:18:22 <kiba> we didn't have that kind of campaign in a while
3027 2011-01-02 21:18:42 <kiba> a CCC campaigned was targeted but didn't succeed because of poor communication failure by the CCC
3028 2011-01-02 21:18:55 <fabianhjr> Creative Commons?
3029 2011-01-02 21:19:02 <kiba> Chaos Computer Club
3030 2011-01-02 21:19:12 rapacity has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3031 2011-01-02 21:20:00 <Myckel> http://blogs.fsfe.org/gerloff/2010/09/20/power-freedom-software-sfd2010-in-the-hague-netherlands/  <= bitcoins gets mentioned here ;-)
3032 2011-01-02 21:20:44 <kiba> I think somebody already wrote a letter to the FSF
3033 2011-01-02 21:20:58 <Myckel> this is fsf-europe
3034 2011-01-02 21:21:32 <nanotube> Myckel: maybe gentoo :) i've seen a few gentoo users around as well. :)
3035 2011-01-02 21:22:04 <kiba> maybe somebody wrote to fsf-europe too
3036 2011-01-02 21:23:20 <Myckel> nanotube, yes, there at least a few people subscribed to the bug for the bitcoin ebuild
3037 2011-01-02 21:23:23 <lolcat> I hate money!
3038 2011-01-02 21:23:30 <Myckel> lolcat, gimme
3039 2011-01-02 21:23:45 <lolcat> I hate the system, I need money to get out of the military
3040 2011-01-02 21:23:57 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: pong again
3041 2011-01-02 21:25:44 <lolcat> What is the price of bitcoin today?
3042 2011-01-02 21:26:59 <fabianhjr> lolcat: 0.3 USD per BTC or 3.34 BTC per USD
3043 2011-01-02 21:27:10 <lolcat> oO
3044 2011-01-02 21:27:25 <lolcat> That is too much, I wanted to buy more :S
3045 2011-01-02 21:27:27 <fabianhjr> lolcat: that is the current market price.
3046 2011-01-02 21:27:42 <lolcat> I know
3047 2011-01-02 21:28:28 <lucky> Any people here run the testnet?
3048 2011-01-02 21:29:16 <lolcat> testnet?
3049 2011-01-02 21:29:43 <edcba> bitcoin network with lower difficulty
3050 2011-01-02 21:29:49 <lucky> a parallel network with worthless currency (free to be had by anyone basically)
3051 2011-01-02 21:30:15 <fabianhjr> lucky: lol, I will laugh so hard if that network gained a market value.
3052 2011-01-02 21:30:23 <lolcat> It is only worthless because nobody wants to buy them
3053 2011-01-02 21:30:25 <lucky> for testing/software purposes so you can simulate transactions without blowing real bitcoins.
3054 2011-01-02 21:30:31 <kiba> didn't somebody generate bitcoin for a long time only to find out that he was in an isolated network?
3055 2011-01-02 21:30:37 <larsig> how does one create a paralell network?
3056 2011-01-02 21:31:02 <lucky> lolcat, yes and it's designed to maintain its worthlessness, in theory it could have value but that'd defeat the purpose :p
3057 2011-01-02 21:31:28 * lolcat pegs the testnet bitcoin to the dollar just for the lulz
3058 2011-01-02 21:31:29 <kiba> there is onothing special about the testnet that would make it worth more than the real bitcoin network
3059 2011-01-02 21:31:37 <fabianhjr> lucky I will buy 1M of your "test bitcoins" for real ones. 8)
3060 2011-01-02 21:31:50 <lucky> ... deal :P
3061 2011-01-02 21:31:52 * EvanR pegs air to the dollar
3062 2011-01-02 21:31:56 <edcba> larsig: just having a different root block chain
3063 2011-01-02 21:32:01 <fabianhjr> 1 BTC per 1 Million of the fake one, :)
3064 2011-01-02 21:32:10 <lucky> i don't have a million ;p
3065 2011-01-02 21:32:19 <fabianhjr> :P naw, I am just joking.
3066 2011-01-02 21:32:37 <lolcat> How do you get a different root block chain?
3067 2011-01-02 21:32:38 <larsig> edcba, ok.. so its like a random seed?
3068 2011-01-02 21:33:15 <lolcat> kiba: How does someone end up on an isolated network?
3069 2011-01-02 21:33:27 <edcba> hmm yes we could say that
3070 2011-01-02 21:33:28 <lucky> larsig, yes, very close to that.
3071 2011-01-02 21:33:40 <kiba> lolcat: fucked up firewall?
3072 2011-01-02 21:34:06 <kiba> I feel sorry for him
3073 2011-01-02 21:34:08 <lolcat> kiba: Sounds strange, will I be able to run my own one node bitcoin netowork? :P
3074 2011-01-02 21:34:16 <EvanR> yes
3075 2011-01-02 21:34:29 <Myckel> did the price on MtGox go up because of the possibility of EURO transfer?
3076 2011-01-02 21:34:31 <EvanR> incompatible with the real one
3077 2011-01-02 21:34:34 <larsig> why does it take shorter time to calculate blocks on the test network? is it because it is newer?
3078 2011-01-02 21:34:34 <lolcat> kiba: Did he generate much?
3079 2011-01-02 21:34:44 <edcba> ;mtgox
3080 2011-01-02 21:34:45 <bitbot> edcba: Mt. Gox: Last(0.299) High(0.3) Low(0.2936) BestSellPrice(0.2941) BestBuyPrice(0.299) Volume(2367)
3081 2011-01-02 21:34:50 <EvanR> larsig: lower difficulty
3082 2011-01-02 21:35:09 <edcba> Myckel: who knows ?
3083 2011-01-02 21:35:26 <edcba> you'd have to ask buyers :)
3084 2011-01-02 21:35:28 <lolcat> Ofcourse the euros helps, euro is collapsing
3085 2011-01-02 21:35:39 <lolcat> So people rather want bitcoins
3086 2011-01-02 21:35:43 <joe_1> well the bitcoin price is set to skyrocket
3087 2011-01-02 21:35:50 <sipa> maybe
3088 2011-01-02 21:35:53 <sipa> maybe not :)
3089 2011-01-02 21:35:55 <fabianhjr> Indeed
3090 2011-01-02 21:36:07 <EvanR> hahaha
3091 2011-01-02 21:36:09 <fabianhjr> It is set to. lets see if it happens.
3092 2011-01-02 21:36:14 <edcba> maybe i should buy bitcoins :)
3093 2011-01-02 21:36:17 <EvanR> joe_1 triggers everyone to buy, so he can sell
3094 2011-01-02 21:37:39 <fabianhjr> EvanR: lol
3095 2011-01-02 21:38:14 <EvanR> whats the going rate on otc
3096 2011-01-02 21:38:52 <joe_1> i sold a little to pay for my christmas but now trying to get back in before it pops to $1.50/coin and ultimately to 700/coin
3097 2011-01-02 21:39:06 <EvanR> lol
3098 2011-01-02 21:40:18 <fabianhjr> Also, BitcoinMarket is up to 0.31 USd per BTC
3099 2011-01-02 21:40:31 <joe_1> yep, it's already starting its climb
3100 2011-01-02 21:40:55 <EvanR> personally id love to buy
3101 2011-01-02 21:41:04 <EvanR> its just not easy
3102 2011-01-02 21:41:19 <joe_1> mtgox was supposed to be working on a margin system to allow you to borrow against coins you already have to buy more
3103 2011-01-02 21:41:33 james has joined
3104 2011-01-02 21:41:47 <lolcat> joe_1: That sounds evil
3105 2011-01-02 21:41:55 <EvanR> heh
3106 2011-01-02 21:41:59 <EvanR> welcome to the stock market
3107 2011-01-02 21:42:03 james is now known as Guest31064
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3110 2011-01-02 21:42:19 <lolcat> Intrest is the reason I quit my job to work against the marked
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3127 2011-01-02 22:19:31 <TD> does anyone have experience of building the client on OS X?
3128 2011-01-02 22:19:42 james_ has joined
3129 2011-01-02 22:19:45 <TD> i followed the instructions but berkely db seems to have compiled for the wrong architecture
3130 2011-01-02 22:23:33 <fabianhjr> TD: intel or PowerPC?
3131 2011-01-02 22:23:36 <TD> intel
3132 2011-01-02 22:23:46 <fabianhjr> Are you using X-Code?
3133 2011-01-02 22:25:13 <TD> just building from the command line. it appears bdb may have a bad build system .... i'm specifying --build=i386 and configure seems to think it should be compiling for i386 but the generated .o files are actually x86_64
3134 2011-01-02 22:27:20 <fabianhjr> lol, do you have a 64 Intel?
3135 2011-01-02 22:27:40 purpleposeidon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3136 2011-01-02 22:27:46 <fabianhjr> TD: try building it for 64-bits. Also, I believe there is a dmg you can download.
3137 2011-01-02 22:28:14 <TD> well, my kernel seems to think it's 32 bit at least
3138 2011-01-02 22:28:21 * TD tries forcing it with -m32
3139 2011-01-02 22:29:03 <fabianhjr> TD: do you have to compile it?
3140 2011-01-02 22:29:10 <newsham> osx running in 32bit mode?  i thought it was always 64bits on ia32
3141 2011-01-02 22:29:30 <TD> not sure. i don't normally work with c++ on macos x
3142 2011-01-02 22:29:48 <TD> $ uname -a
3143 2011-01-02 22:29:48 <TD> Darwin hearn-macbookpro.local 10.4.0 Darwin Kernel Version 10.4.0: Fri Apr 23 18:28:53 PDT 2010; root:xnu-1504.7.4~1/RELEASE_I386 i386
3144 2011-01-02 22:30:37 <TD> hmm
3145 2011-01-02 22:30:45 <TD> i wonder if i have to do this double compile/lipo merge thing with libdb too
3146 2011-01-02 22:30:47 <TD> pain if so
3147 2011-01-02 22:31:05 <fabianhjr> TD: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.19/
3148 2011-01-02 22:31:09 <marioxcc> can the bitcoin network be used for general purpose timestamping?
3149 2011-01-02 22:31:15 <TD> i want to modify the source so yes, i have to build it
3150 2011-01-02 22:31:45 <grondilu> marioxcc: yes.
3151 2011-01-02 22:31:54 <marioxcc> grondilu: how?
3152 2011-01-02 22:31:54 <marioxcc> :)
3153 2011-01-02 22:32:06 <grondilu> there is a thread about that on the forum
3154 2011-01-02 22:32:14 <marioxcc> oh no, forum...
3155 2011-01-02 22:32:15 <grondilu> search timestamping
3156 2011-01-02 22:32:18 * marioxcc skips
3157 2011-01-02 22:32:45 <grondilu> you would prefer a wiki or something ?
3158 2011-01-02 22:32:56 <marioxcc> mailing list
3159 2011-01-02 22:33:03 <marioxcc> i exposed the problem a couple of times
3160 2011-01-02 22:33:04 <fabianhjr> TD: sorry, I can't help you then. I had only used XCode for Objective-C. ):
3161 2011-01-02 22:33:17 <marioxcc> forum don't offers an standard interface, you have to use a web interface you don't like
3162 2011-01-02 22:33:18 <TD> this is all command line stuff. xcode doesn't get involved
3163 2011-01-02 22:33:19 <marioxcc> (not me at least)
3164 2011-01-02 22:33:27 <marioxcc> mail is standard, you can use whatever client you want
3165 2011-01-02 22:33:30 <marioxcc> or make your's own :)
3166 2011-01-02 22:34:08 <grondilu> marioxcc: it's not very complex though.  Just sign a rmd160, and put it in http://blockexplorer.com/q/hashtoaddress/MYHASH to get a bitcoin address
3167 2011-01-02 22:34:39 <grondilu> timestamping will cost you 0.01 BTC
3168 2011-01-02 22:35:08 <marioxcc> grondilu: some transactions are included for free
3169 2011-01-02 22:35:17 <grondilu> ?
3170 2011-01-02 22:35:27 <marioxcc> i undestand you can make small transactions without paying a fee
3171 2011-01-02 22:35:35 <marioxcc> why should you pay for timestamping?
3172 2011-01-02 22:35:55 <grondilu> yes but for timestamping you got to use a bitcoin address you don't own.
3173 2011-01-02 22:36:04 <grondilu> Actually, nobody owns it.
3174 2011-01-02 22:36:21 <EvanR> how would bitcoins work on a site like ebay. obviously you can wait to get the coins to ship it, but what 'protects' the buyer?
3175 2011-01-02 22:36:27 <marioxcc> do the miner actually check whether someone owns it?
3176 2011-01-02 22:36:34 <lucky> EvanR, nothing directly.
3177 2011-01-02 22:36:50 <EvanR> an escrow would have to verify the package got there
3178 2011-01-02 22:36:53 <lucky> EvanR, an escrow service would most likely be the sensible approach.
3179 2011-01-02 22:37:04 <lucky> actually, just mail the package to the escrow service.
3180 2011-01-02 22:37:17 <EvanR> thats going to slow down business...
3181 2011-01-02 22:37:18 <marioxcc> EvanR: see https://clearcoin.appspot.com/
3182 2011-01-02 22:37:25 <grondilu> The timestamping bitcoin address is made out of your hash.  Nobody owns it.
3183 2011-01-02 22:37:34 <TD> there we go
3184 2011-01-02 22:37:36 <EvanR> but yeah i didnt think of that
3185 2011-01-02 22:37:41 <TD> man building bitcoin is a ballache
3186 2011-01-02 22:37:51 <EvanR> lucky: but dont verify that the package got to buyer?
3187 2011-01-02 22:37:56 <EvanR> the buyer can still bitch
3188 2011-01-02 22:38:47 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3189 2011-01-02 22:40:20 <TD> finally .....
3190 2011-01-02 22:49:04 xelister has joined
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3192 2011-01-02 22:49:09 <marioxcc> it only includes the merkle tree in the blocks
3193 2011-01-02 22:49:09 <grondilu> lol
3194 2011-01-02 22:49:14 <grondilu> this is useful only if all your files are made in the same time.
3195 2011-01-02 22:49:26 <edcba> you can 0.01+epsilon
3196 2011-01-02 22:49:33 <grondilu> I mean : with the same timestamp
3197 2011-01-02 22:49:45 <grondilu> so it's actually ONE timestamp.
3198 2011-01-02 22:49:53 darsk1ez has joined
3199 2011-01-02 22:49:53 zygf has joined
3200 2011-01-02 22:50:12 <marioxcc> what's the current model, then?
3201 2011-01-02 22:50:42 <grondilu> it's not a model.  It's a possibility.  But so far almost noone uses it.
3202 2011-01-02 22:50:47 <marioxcc> ok
3203 2011-01-02 22:50:58 <marioxcc> is http://blockexplorer.com/q/hashtoaddress/ the same ascii encoder found in the default bitcoin client?
3204 2011-01-02 22:51:08 <marioxcc> base58
3205 2011-01-02 22:51:09 <grondilu> I did it once and I still regret my 0.01 BTC :(
3206 2011-01-02 22:51:44 <kiba>  the copyright meme is quite difficult to defeat...
3207 2011-01-02 22:51:45 <kiba> hmm
3208 2011-01-02 22:52:07 <grondilu> marioxcc: I don't know
3209 2011-01-02 22:52:54 <sipa> marioxcc: i have no idea about the implementation, which is likely in a different language
3210 2011-01-02 22:53:04 <marioxcc> sipa: c++
3211 2011-01-02 22:53:15 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: please email jgarzik@gmail.com, FWIW.  you can move any time; HTTP server is still shut down.
3212 2011-01-02 22:53:18 <marioxcc> if you mean base85
3213 2011-01-02 22:53:31 <sipa> marioxcc: in the client, of course
3214 2011-01-02 22:53:38 <sipa> but on the site it will be different
3215 2011-01-02 22:53:46 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: unlike most people, I use well known name (my real name) and publicly known email addresses
3216 2011-01-02 22:53:52 * jgarzik disappears again
3217 2011-01-02 22:53:53 <marioxcc> jgarzik: oh, did you saw my message yesterday?
3218 2011-01-02 22:56:13 Guest89486 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3219 2011-01-02 22:56:34 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik: unlike most people, I'm the same
3220 2011-01-02 22:57:16 <jgarzik> marioxcc: no
3221 2011-01-02 22:57:30 james_ has joined
3222 2011-01-02 22:58:04 <marioxcc> jgarzik: I made some changes to cpuminer
3223 2011-01-02 22:58:17 <marioxcc> added a work queue
3224 2011-01-02 22:58:29 <marioxcc> to minimize the impact of network latency
3225 2011-01-02 22:59:05 <marioxcc> grondilu: there is a git repository in http://200.56.150.72:8080/software/cpuminer.git/ if you want to pull the changes
3226 2011-01-02 22:59:15 <marioxcc> (temporary server)
3227 2011-01-02 22:59:32 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
3228 2011-01-02 23:00:18 <grondilu> jgarzik: marioxcc 's comment is for you I guess ^^
3229 2011-01-02 23:00:52 <marioxcc> jgarzik* sorry
3230 2011-01-02 23:01:47 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik: didn't you register on kalyhost?
3231 2011-01-02 23:02:38 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: no.  should I?
3232 2011-01-02 23:04:01 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik: I'll need you to fill a VPS for an order so I can make it free, please register on https://www.kalyhost.com/cart.html?REF[a]=206&REF[b]=202
3233 2011-01-02 23:04:30 <MT`AwAy> and tell me once you reach the payment page
3234 2011-01-02 23:04:41 <MT`AwAy> (I'll switch the domain to you too)
3235 2011-01-02 23:06:14 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
3236 2011-01-02 23:06:36 [Beta] has joined
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3243 2011-01-02 23:07:46 <EvanR> MT`AwAy: are you still working on problems with your service, or were you hoping i would go away ;)
3244 2011-01-02 23:08:05 * nanotube is curious what MT`AwAy and jgarzik are working on... :)
3245 2011-01-02 23:08:11 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: ?
3246 2011-01-02 23:08:24 james__ has joined
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3248 2011-01-02 23:08:34 <MT`AwAy> nanotube: I'm moving pastecoin to a real vps, since I'm going to stop the old host
3249 2011-01-02 23:08:51 <EvanR> i unmet demand for a vps
3250 2011-01-02 23:08:53 <EvanR> have
3251 2011-01-02 23:09:09 <xelister> EvanR: what you mean?
3252 2011-01-02 23:09:21 <xelister> EvanR: I can sell you VPS for BTC I suppose
3253 2011-01-02 23:09:32 <EvanR> i already am dealing with MT`AwAy
3254 2011-01-02 23:09:45 <EvanR> and nanocoin actually
3255 2011-01-02 23:09:49 <tjgillies> how do the bitcoin clients connect to each other if you're behind NAT?
3256 2011-01-02 23:10:11 <jgarzik> tjgillies: at least one host somewhere in the world must be outside the NAT
3257 2011-01-02 23:10:20 <jgarzik> tjgillies: and indeed there are plenty outside NAT
3258 2011-01-02 23:10:38 <MT`AwAy> EvanR: your login is?
3259 2011-01-02 23:10:45 <EvanR> i dont have one
3260 2011-01-02 23:10:49 <MT`AwAy> oh
3261 2011-01-02 23:10:53 <MT`AwAy> then your unmet demand is?
3262 2011-01-02 23:10:53 <MT`AwAy> :D
3263 2011-01-02 23:11:05 <tjgillies> jgarzik: how does the blockchain get sent to me if im behind NAT?
3264 2011-01-02 23:11:05 <EvanR> the cheapest vps service
3265 2011-01-02 23:11:17 <jgarzik> tjgillies: you download it from P2P nodes outside your NAT
3266 2011-01-02 23:11:19 <EvanR> tjgillies: same way a webpage does
3267 2011-01-02 23:11:29 <xelister> yeah then nevermind
3268 2011-01-02 23:11:53 <jgarzik> tjgillies: your NAT'd hosts connect to other P2P nodes.  behind a NAT only means people cannot connect _to_ you.  unless you port forward/etc.
3269 2011-01-02 23:12:03 <tjgillies> how does the client know that the person im trying to download from has a public ip?
3270 2011-01-02 23:12:20 <tjgillies> it justs randomly tries people until it can download?
3271 2011-01-02 23:12:47 <EvanR> it initially connects to hardcoded or stuff it heard on irc
3272 2011-01-02 23:12:51 <jgarzik> tjgillies: if you can connect, then you can download.  so you know simply because connections succeed, same as HTTP.  bitcoin makes sure clients publish their external IP.
3273 2011-01-02 23:12:56 <nanotube> MT`AwAy: ah cool.
3274 2011-01-02 23:13:21 sgornick has joined
3275 2011-01-02 23:13:58 <tjgillies> so its "centralized" in the sense that only public facing clients can distribute data
3276 2011-01-02 23:14:24 <EvanR> not all clients are generating coins either
3277 2011-01-02 23:14:27 <jgarzik> tjgillies: in that sense, all decentralized services everywhere are centralized
3278 2011-01-02 23:15:35 <jgarzik> tjgillies: as long as there are "plenty" of non-NAT P2P nodes out there, it's not centralized
3279 2011-01-02 23:15:45 <MT`AwAy> https://stats.bitcoin.it/rrd/nodes_up-day.png <- amount of nodes I saw "up"
3280 2011-01-02 23:15:51 <tjgillies> jgarzik: ok thanks. am trying to create a mini p2p client and trying to understand some fundamentals
3281 2011-01-02 23:16:06 darrob has quit (Disconnected by services)
3282 2011-01-02 23:16:14 darrob has joined
3283 2011-01-02 23:16:42 <slush> MT`AwAy: Those nodes are connected to your bitcoind?
3284 2011-01-02 23:16:56 <slush> MT`AwAy: I never see more than 50 nodes connected to my client...
3285 2011-01-02 23:17:11 <MT`AwAy> slush: no, it's not my bitcoind
3286 2011-01-02 23:17:20 <MT`AwAy> it's my bitcoin p2p network analyzer system
3287 2011-01-02 23:17:26 <slush> MT`AwAy: oh, thanks
3288 2011-01-02 23:18:41 <edcba> MT`AwAy: how do you stats ?
3289 2011-01-02 23:18:50 <edcba> join messages on network ?
3290 2011-01-02 23:19:17 <MT`AwAy> edcba: I made a tiny php script that connects to all bitcoin nodes I find
3291 2011-01-02 23:19:22 <MT`AwAy> and ask them to list addresses
3292 2011-01-02 23:19:25 <tjgillies> what does bitcoin use irc for? does it try to connect to everyone in the same room?
3293 2011-01-02 23:19:31 <edcba> ok
3294 2011-01-02 23:19:35 <xelister> btw, do we have a graph of bitcoin nodes over time?
3295 2011-01-02 23:19:40 <MT`AwAy> tjgillies: until it establishes a few connections
3296 2011-01-02 23:19:43 <afed> i hate long rounds i hate long rounds
3297 2011-01-02 23:19:57 <MT`AwAy> xelister: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Map <- I started but scanning a P2P network is not much reliable
3298 2011-01-02 23:20:03 <tjgillies> interesting
3299 2011-01-02 23:20:04 acous has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3300 2011-01-02 23:20:17 <tjgillies> was thinking of using irc as a bootstrapping protocol for my p2p network
3301 2011-01-02 23:20:40 <MT`AwAy> tjgillies: once a node has connected to some other nodes they'll exchange addresses via the network itself
3302 2011-01-02 23:20:43 <edcba> tjgillies: use central http server
3303 2011-01-02 23:20:49 <xelister> MT`AwAy: the way how freenet ( #freenet ) handles it can be interesting too.
3304 2011-01-02 23:20:58 <tjgillies> edcba: thats centralized
3305 2011-01-02 23:21:03 <edcba> tjgillies: irc too
3306 2011-01-02 23:21:14 acous has joined
3307 2011-01-02 23:21:15 <tjgillies> edcba: wel... yeah good point
3308 2011-01-02 23:21:30 <MT`AwAy> xelister: btw my nodes database can be downloaded from https://dump.bitcoin.it/misc/201101/
3309 2011-01-02 23:21:32 <tjgillies> if the irc channel got taken over would all the current bitcoin clients stop working?
3310 2011-01-02 23:21:40 <MT`AwAy> data format is JSON, and I do one backup per day
3311 2011-01-02 23:21:45 <edcba> tjgillies: only new clients
3312 2011-01-02 23:21:54 <edcba> hmm maybe not
3313 2011-01-02 23:22:01 <edcba> i think satoshi added some trusted nodes
3314 2011-01-02 23:22:23 <MT`AwAy> the source contains a random selection of nodes
3315 2011-01-02 23:22:27 <tjgillies> edcba: why do you say http server vs irc?
3316 2011-01-02 23:22:43 <edcba> because http is more enterprise friendly :)
3317 2011-01-02 23:22:49 <MT`AwAy> https://smsz.net/btcStats/accepting <- some stats in JSON format
3318 2011-01-02 23:22:58 <edcba> it's more internet friendly
3319 2011-01-02 23:23:08 <edcba> ie not firewalled
3320 2011-01-02 23:23:08 <tjgillies> why does bitcoin use irc then?
3321 2011-01-02 23:23:20 <edcba> because it's a crappy choice
3322 2011-01-02 23:23:27 <MT`AwAy> tjgillies: because irc is a bit more reliable and decentralized
3323 2011-01-02 23:23:34 <edcba> lol
3324 2011-01-02 23:23:44 <edcba> reliable as network splits ? :)
3325 2011-01-02 23:23:45 <MT`AwAy> usually an irc network has more than one node
3326 2011-01-02 23:23:53 <MT`AwAy> edcba: irc has splits, http has downs
3327 2011-01-02 23:23:55 <MT`AwAy> choose one
3328 2011-01-02 23:24:07 <tjgillies> ok thanks for the info
3329 2011-01-02 23:24:26 <MT`AwAy> as long as the irc network you use do not decide to throw you out, you're fine
3330 2011-01-02 23:24:33 <xelister> we can use Freenet for seeding bitcoin
3331 2011-01-02 23:25:03 <xelister> you would collect list of freenet-page-addresses (USK@) of people you trust + few hardcoded into bitcoin client
3332 2011-01-02 23:25:08 <MT`AwAy> https://smsz.net/btcStats/bootstrap <- I'm also providing an url for those who want to seed via HTTP, but it'll depend on my ability to stay online
3333 2011-01-02 23:25:14 <edcba> i think satoshi has chosen irc because it already do the propagation part for you where http would not
3334 2011-01-02 23:25:32 <tjgillies> what is "seeding"?
3335 2011-01-02 23:25:32 <xelister> and people would post there their ip:port and possibly other ip:port pairs that they know about (e.g. if you are cuted from seeding sources but they are not)
3336 2011-01-02 23:25:41 <tjgillies> distributing blockchain data?
3337 2011-01-02 23:25:51 <MT`AwAy> xelister: you can automatically harvest those
3338 2011-01-02 23:25:51 <xelister> tjgillies: finding peers to connect to (ip:port)
3339 2011-01-02 23:26:00 <tjgillies> ok
3340 2011-01-02 23:26:04 <xelister> MT`AwAy: why? and how is that a problem?
3341 2011-01-02 23:26:08 <jgarzik> bitcoin connects directly to IRC server's IP address
3342 2011-01-02 23:26:14 <jgarzik> it is a big single point of failure (SPOF)
3343 2011-01-02 23:26:18 <MT`AwAy> xelister: it's not a problem, it's just easier
3344 2011-01-02 23:26:22 <xelister> port:ip pairs announced over freenet USK@ would be UNCENSORABLE
3345 2011-01-02 23:26:46 <xelister> untill you kill entire freenet - and to do that FULLY you need to kill all encrypted p2p traffic basically
3346 2011-01-02 23:26:46 <MT`AwAy> xelister: they would eventually become invalid
3347 2011-01-02 23:26:57 <xelister> MT`AwAy: USK@ stands for *updatable* Subspace Key
3348 2011-01-02 23:27:04 <MT`AwAy> yep
3349 2011-01-02 23:27:16 <xelister> latency is around 0.1 - 3 hours, good enough for static and semi static ips
3350 2011-01-02 23:27:44 <xelister> actually you can script this all up right now
3351 2011-01-02 23:32:28 AAA_awright_ has joined
3352 2011-01-02 23:32:28 ArtForz has joined
3353 2011-01-02 23:32:44 <ArtForz> now a new node needs to somehow find the USK of the peer list of another node
3354 2011-01-02 23:32:44 <xelister> ArtForz: from sources
3355 2011-01-02 23:32:44 <ArtForz> what sources?
3356 2011-01-02 23:32:48 <xelister> hardcoded into new bitcoin version
3357 2011-01-02 23:33:09 <xelister> also, someone trustworthy
3358 2011-01-02 23:33:13 <ArtForz> so... you replaced a hardcoded IP list with a hardcoded USK list *and* added a dependency on freenet, how is this helping?
3359 2011-01-02 23:33:18 * xelister *cought*pickmepickme*cought*
3360 2011-01-02 23:33:31 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 286 seconds)
3361 2011-01-02 23:33:34 T_X has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3362 2011-01-02 23:33:36 <xelister> could made central USK listing other USK and combined list of all ip:port
3363 2011-01-02 23:34:04 <ArtForz> and who picks who maintains the central list?
3364 2011-01-02 23:34:05 <tcatm> slush: ping?
3365 2011-01-02 23:34:10 <xelister> ArtForz: it helps in this way that the USK can be updated in 1 hour, instead of waiting for next release of client and using it. also - adding, not replacing
3366 2011-01-02 23:34:25 <xelister> ArtForz: few people could publish their sites (e.g. I would)
3367 2011-01-02 23:34:34 <xelister> then popular lists would get hardcoded into client
3368 2011-01-02 23:34:38 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
3369 2011-01-02 23:34:45 <slush> tcatm: pong
3370 2011-01-02 23:35:07 <tcatm> slush: can you add a field "last share submitted x seconds ago" to the workers list?
3371 2011-01-02 23:35:14 <xelister> ArtForz: basically USK@ is like web page address, instead, it's damn hard to censor, you can't go after the DNS or after the hosting server of it
3372 2011-01-02 23:35:27 <slush> tcatm: yep, I can
3373 2011-01-02 23:35:34 <ArtForz> yeah, I know what a USK is
3374 2011-01-02 23:35:42 <slush> tcatm: Just now I'm working on reporting crashed workers...
3375 2011-01-02 23:35:55 <ArtForz> the whole thing just sounds horribly overcomplicated, and doesnt really solve anything
3376 2011-01-02 23:36:03 Zarutian has joined
3377 2011-01-02 23:36:38 <tcatm> slush: great :)
3378 2011-01-02 23:36:47 <xelister> ArtForz: what is other way to have uncensorable seeding point?
3379 2011-01-02 23:37:21 <ArtForz> there really isnt one, unless you go to darknet-style WoT
3380 2011-01-02 23:37:23 <xelister> ArtForz: TOR hidden service could be fine too, but TOR -vs- Freenet,  TOR is more censorable (even with bridges) in china
3381 2011-01-02 23:37:48 <ArtForz> yep
3382 2011-01-02 23:37:52 <xelister> darknet node with 10 hidden friends. can't censor that, such computer will ALWAY get the USK@ list of nodes
3383 2011-01-02 23:38:08 <xelister> unless it is in country that would ban and block ALL P2P protocols what so ever
3384 2011-01-02 23:38:26 <xelister> (and even then there is hope in crypto, and hand made mesh networks not using normal internet ;)
3385 2011-01-02 23:38:34 <ArtForz> btw, adding TOR support might be a good idea generally
3386 2011-01-02 23:38:40 <xelister> yes
3387 2011-01-02 23:38:52 <slush> tcatm: done (on dev)
3388 2011-01-02 23:39:01 <xelister> tor is easier (except, it will not work in china etc)
3389 2011-01-02 23:39:04 <ArtForz> way harder to split the network if you have a unknown # of hidden service links between nodes
3390 2011-01-02 23:39:08 <xelister> actually, freenet is easy too
3391 2011-01-02 23:39:23 <ArtForz> yeah, the API is pretty simple
3392 2011-01-02 23:39:27 <xelister> have 5 minutes?  use freenet -> freenetproject.org -> download (get java JRE too on your system) -> run -> done
3393 2011-01-02 23:40:02 <ArtForz> I've implemented a frost spider in python
3394 2011-01-02 23:40:07 <xelister> we should just make plugins for bitcoin, to use 1) tor  2) freenet  3) i2p  4) etc   for seeding
3395 2011-01-02 23:40:13 <xelister> and same for block exchanging
3396 2011-01-02 23:40:16 <xelister> that would rock
3397 2011-01-02 23:40:28 <tcatm> slush: another useful feature: a user configurable timeout. if the interval >= timeout, change row background to red
3398 2011-01-02 23:40:35 <xelister> ArtForz: cool. publish it :) although frost is so spamed nowdays
3399 2011-01-02 23:40:36 <ArtForz> well, block/tx exchange via non-realtime network is gonna be hard
3400 2011-01-02 23:40:45 <xelister> btw, can I play USA journalist? please please?
3401 2011-01-02 23:40:51 <ArtForz> but TOR and I2P should be possible
3402 2011-01-02 23:41:02 <xelister> HEADLINE !!!
3403 2011-01-02 23:41:10 <xelister> LEAD BITCOIN CLUSTER MILIONARE ADMITS PEDO RING ASSOCIATIONS
3404 2011-01-02 23:41:35 <slush> tcatm: well, currently there is hardcoded limit 1 hour from last share to decide worker as crashed
3405 2011-01-02 23:41:36 <xelister> also this just in: sweeden declared terrorists for dicking with Assange's death penalty
3406 2011-01-02 23:42:05 <ArtForz> we'd need a bunch of changes so a node keeps opennet and tor/i2p seperate
3407 2011-01-02 23:42:18 <xelister> in other news, 57823 kids killed in iraq whatever HAPPY 2011 YEAR HOLIDAYS o/   </usa>
3408 2011-01-02 23:42:40 <slush> tcatm: And I also fixed some issues so miners should not crash so often
3409 2011-01-02 23:42:55 <slush> (from next release)
3410 2011-01-02 23:42:57 <ArtForz> as I'd guess you kinda wouldnt want your node to announce its public IP over tor/i2p
3411 2011-01-02 23:43:25 <tcatm> slush: GPUs can still crash. A timeout of about 10 minutes would be better for them
3412 2011-01-02 23:43:43 <xelister> ArtForz: you could secure tor and others more, on high level, by adding remailer style blackboxes  to build high level logical onion routing thing
3413 2011-01-02 23:44:10 <ArtForz> yep
3414 2011-01-02 23:44:29 <xelister> such very secure channel should be fine even with possible weakeaing of security by including the IP of originator of message /usually you would have freenet/tor/i2p on same box as bitcoind ofcourse/
3415 2011-01-02 23:44:46 <slush> tcatm: How often is your miner crashing?
3416 2011-01-02 23:44:58 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3417 2011-01-02 23:45:10 <xelister> ArtForz: toad is against such tunnles yet (huge hit to penlaty) but imo anyone can code it high level, also for any basic protocol (i2p/tor/fn)
3418 2011-01-02 23:45:19 <xelister> *huge hit to preformance
3419 2011-01-02 23:45:26 <ArtForz> well, the only place where we disclose our IP is in the initial version() message
3420 2011-01-02 23:45:27 <tcatm> I have one GPU that seems a bit unstable using poclbm. Crashed a few times within the last hour
3421 2011-01-02 23:45:34 <slush> tcatm: I'm curious, because my Diablo's crashed once for two days, when I made crazy things on service
3422 2011-01-02 23:45:43 <xelister> ok bbl gang o/
3423 2011-01-02 23:46:39 AAA_awright has joined
3424 2011-01-02 23:46:58 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3425 2011-01-02 23:47:23 sgornick has joined
3426 2011-01-02 23:50:59 <slush> tcatm: Oh, so it is probably not related to pool stability, is it? During last hour pool was stable, afaik
3427 2011-01-02 23:51:39 <slush> tcatm: Today I had next strange issues with another service on server, but it looks definitely fixed now, so pool should be ok
3428 2011-01-02 23:52:00 <tcatm> slush: Yep, it's not the pool's fault.
3429 2011-01-02 23:53:21 <tcatm> slush: But it would be nice if I could monitor my nodes through your web interfaces as poclbm doesn't support monitoring.
3430 2011-01-02 23:53:32 <slush> tcatm: great. I would like to release my dev version soon, so it has feature freeze for now. But I'll add custom timeouts soon
3431 2011-01-02 23:55:17 <sipa> tcatm: any reason for using a python miner over a java one?
3432 2011-01-02 23:55:25 <Diablo-D3> nope, none.
3433 2011-01-02 23:55:29 <Diablo-D3> since mine is clearly superior
3434 2011-01-02 23:55:31 <tcatm> java doesn't work :P
3435 2011-01-02 23:55:38 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: because your shits broke
3436 2011-01-02 23:55:39 <Diablo-D3> fix it
3437 2011-01-02 23:55:43 <fabianhjr> I have a friend who loves music and has released some albums for free. I am trying to convince him to publish his work with a Bitcoin pricetag. I just wanted to know if you would buy it: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2576.0
3438 2011-01-02 23:55:45 <bitbot> Kieran's Music - Presaling
3439 2011-01-02 23:55:54 <lucky> is there a way to clear the bitcoind's transaction history?
3440 2011-01-02 23:56:05 <sipa> how do you mean?
3441 2011-01-02 23:56:13 <tcatm> Diablo-D3: poclbm works fine and is easy to customize
3442 2011-01-02 23:56:23 <Diablo-D3> I already confirmed tcatm has an out of date version of cat or stream sdk
3443 2011-01-02 23:56:24 <lucky> sipa, what'll be returned by listreceivedbyaccount
3444 2011-01-02 23:56:25 <Sami345> Approx. cluster performance: 9686.8244 Mhash/s
3445 2011-01-02 23:56:26 <Sami345> OMG
3446 2011-01-02 23:56:27 <Diablo-D3> it should not be used.
3447 2011-01-02 23:56:41 <tcatm> why not?
3448 2011-01-02 23:56:44 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: and why would you have to customize it if it already does everything correctly?
3449 2011-01-02 23:56:45 <afed> hahahahhahahaha
3450 2011-01-02 23:56:51 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: because its _slower_
3451 2011-01-02 23:56:52 <tcatm> I Mined over 54000 BTC with that old SDK :P
3452 2011-01-02 23:57:09 <Diablo-D3> you should be using at least cat 10.10 and sdk 2.1 only
3453 2011-01-02 23:57:14 <fabianhjr> tcatm: lol, what's your hashrate?
3454 2011-01-02 23:57:54 <tcatm> Diablo-D3: I have a hacked SDK that links to 2.2 libs but works with multi gpu :P
3455 2011-01-02 23:58:06 <xelister> 2011 wish list
3456 2011-01-02 23:58:14 <xelister> - >1.00 BTC/USD
3457 2011-01-02 23:58:20 <xelister> - getting x10 bigger economy size
3458 2011-01-02 23:58:22 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: erm, except 2.1 works with multi gpu
3459 2011-01-02 23:58:34 <tcatm> fabianhjr: 3.4 GHash/s
3460 2011-01-02 23:58:45 <fabianhjr> tcatm: you got 24 5970s right?
3461 2011-01-02 23:58:48 <xelister> - 2011 year of bitcoin, being used by crypto networks too, used by developers and serious outsourcing all over the world
3462 2011-01-02 23:58:55 <tcatm> fabianhjr: nope, that's ArtForz
3463 2011-01-02 23:58:59 <fabianhjr> It is impressive. 0_o You put my only GPU to shame.
3464 2011-01-02 23:59:06 <xelister> - Ati's drivers developers HQ bursting into flames
3465 2011-01-02 23:59:13 <xelister> - winds care the flames over to Flash HQ
3466 2011-01-02 23:59:31 <xelister> anything else?  Anyway, happy 2011 :)
3467 2011-01-02 23:59:38 xelister is now known as xelister|DrUNK
3468 2011-01-02 23:59:43 <tcatm> Diablo-D3: How much can I expect from your miner on a 5870 @ 850 MHz?