1 2011-01-05 00:00:23 <slush> marioxcc: currently I accept it as a share. Teoretically it should make only 1% difference in final share distribution. But in last update (yesterday) I also started to log which share is 'effective' and which is not (job is older than last network chain change). So I will see real difference in distribution. Then I'll decide if I should count those 'ineffective' submits as shares
   2 2011-01-05 00:01:03 <marioxcc> slush: ok
   3 2011-01-05 00:02:28 james_ has joined
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  11 2011-01-05 00:17:38 TheRealPlato has joined
  12 2011-01-05 00:18:12 <TheRealPlato> Hi all, is there a more recent guide to setting up DiabloMiner than this thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0
  13 2011-01-05 00:18:15 <bitbot> Official DiabloMiner Thread
  14 2011-01-05 00:19:23 <nanotube> well, it's "the official" thread :) i haven't seen anything besides that
  15 2011-01-05 00:20:05 <TheRealPlato> nano, I saw your name at bitcoin-otc.com
  16 2011-01-05 00:20:06 <TheRealPlato> nice wrok
  17 2011-01-05 00:20:08 <TheRealPlato> *work
  18 2011-01-05 00:24:08 Cusipzzz has joined
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  20 2011-01-05 00:25:07 rtfm is now known as Guest36282
  21 2011-01-05 00:25:23 <Guest36282> hey all, I knew about bitcoin for a while but finally might use it =)
  22 2011-01-05 00:27:46 <EvanR> use it?
  23 2011-01-05 00:27:52 <EvanR> like to pay your rent?
  24 2011-01-05 00:27:56 <nanotube> TheRealPlato: :) tx
  25 2011-01-05 00:28:15 james_ has joined
  26 2011-01-05 00:28:23 <afed> yo slush
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  28 2011-01-05 00:28:46 <da2ce7> slush, 0.1% invalid or stale now. :)
  29 2011-01-05 00:29:16 <afed> slush: confirmation backlog is now 9 blocks, is that expected?
  30 2011-01-05 00:30:05 Guest36282 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  31 2011-01-05 00:31:44 <slush> afed: what is confirmation backlog?
  32 2011-01-05 00:32:52 <slush> da2ce7: yes, I found optimization on current server. And tomorrow we'll go to fresh clean server with pool, so it should be even better
  33 2011-01-05 00:32:52 <afed> slush: the ones awaiting conformation before rewards
  34 2011-01-05 00:33:11 <slush> afed: ok, what you mean 'is that expected'?
  35 2011-01-05 00:33:33 <slush> we're waiting to 120 confirmations of bitcoin network
  36 2011-01-05 00:35:57 <afed> slush: well there used to be four waiting usually
  37 2011-01-05 00:36:02 <afed> now it's up to nine
  38 2011-01-05 00:36:10 <slush> afed: see mhash/s
  39 2011-01-05 00:36:15 <slush> it's little higher now :)
  40 2011-01-05 00:36:34 <slush> it is simple - now we have 9 blocks in last 120 blocks
  41 2011-01-05 00:36:47 <afed> ok just because we're making blocks faster :)
  42 2011-01-05 00:36:52 <slush> exactly
  43 2011-01-05 00:37:23 <slush> I have to go, bye!
  44 2011-01-05 00:37:33 <afed> bye
  45 2011-01-05 00:40:27 chuck251 has joined
  46 2011-01-05 00:42:06 <jgarzik> slush: yes, it runs through nonce 0 - 0xffffff before checking for more work.  this increases the chance of finding zeroes in current work, and increases the chance of solving older work.  0xffffff nonce's take about 5 seconds on my machine, but this varies from machine to machine.
  47 2011-01-05 00:43:30 <jgarzik> slush: I can add "max nonce" option for people to shorten.  Another possibility is creating a "max scan time" option, and calculate number of hashes required to reach max scan time -- 5 seconds or whatever
  48 2011-01-05 00:48:40 james__ has joined
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  50 2011-01-05 00:59:12 <tcatm> Anyone on testnet?
  51 2011-01-05 00:59:19 <xelister> how to list all transactions I done?
  52 2011-01-05 00:59:24 <xelister> with cli bitcoind
  53 2011-01-05 00:59:43 <xelister> tcatm: I could join I suppose. why?  for a moment I can put there hundrets of M ;)
  54 2011-01-05 01:01:04 <tcatm> I need some transactions for testing my bitcoin UI. Send some coins to mqqCCLT8jJGW4PBSNWzonkqsfn8D14YcDH and tell me addreses where I can send some coins to.
  55 2011-01-05 01:01:25 <xelister> test coins?
  56 2011-01-05 01:01:30 <tcatm> yep
  57 2011-01-05 01:02:32 <nanotube> tcatm: does your ui list all the transactions, like the bitcoin gui does?
  58 2011-01-05 01:02:55 <tcatm> It uses listtransactions (RPC)
  59 2011-01-05 01:03:02 james_ has joined
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  61 2011-01-05 01:05:41 <nanotube> tcatm: and iirc, if you set minconf=0, it'll show the just-arrived ones as well yes?
  62 2011-01-05 01:05:58 <tcatm> yep
  63 2011-01-05 01:06:10 <nanotube> neato
  64 2011-01-05 01:06:48 MT`AwAy is now known as zz_MT`AwAy
  65 2011-01-05 01:06:55 <tcatm> JSONP is very annoying :/
  66 2011-01-05 01:07:16 <nanotube> hehe well, the whole thing sounds like a big hack... so no surprise there. :P
  67 2011-01-05 01:07:36 <EvanR> welcome to the www
  68 2011-01-05 01:07:48 <EvanR> epitome of worse-is-better
  69 2011-01-05 01:07:58 <tcatm> I have to cheat to use Objects because it forgets the self-references after JSONP calls.
  70 2011-01-05 01:08:47 <EvanR> {myself: {myself: {myself: ...
  71 2011-01-05 01:08:50 <EvanR> lol
  72 2011-01-05 01:11:37 alowm has joined
  73 2011-01-05 01:17:05 <kiba> it is not at all transparent to me how I am wrong
  74 2011-01-05 01:17:49 <xelister> tcatm: sent you 666.777
  75 2011-01-05 01:18:24 <xelister> in CLI how to list all outgoing xfers I done?
  76 2011-01-05 01:18:44 pr0wler has joined
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  78 2011-01-05 01:18:58 <tcatm> xelister: listtransactions should show them
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  81 2011-01-05 01:20:14 <xelister> ok
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  87 2011-01-05 01:34:04 <rtfm> hi
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  89 2011-01-05 01:34:05 rtfm is now known as Guest32538
  90 2011-01-05 01:35:13 <Guest32538> guess I got split off before.. so, I am thinking BC might be good as an alternative to accept payments to paypal/"high risk" CC processors. Anyone using BC that way?
  91 2011-01-05 01:35:49 <comboy> hints for the best way to buy bitcoins having visa/paypal? I'm traveling through this different sites, they seem like made by 15 yo old in 1995 and I'm afraid to put my credentials there or they charge like 40%, what do you recommend?
  92 2011-01-05 01:36:36 <uberjar> Guest32538: yeah it'd be pretty OK for that
  93 2011-01-05 01:38:01 <alowm> is it even feasible for a core i7 quad to be trying to generate coins today, or are the GPU fellows still running the show?
  94 2011-01-05 01:38:35 <uberjar> comboy, most of the exchangers on http://www.bitcoin.org/trade are for real
  95 2011-01-05 01:38:56 <uberjar> comboy: I can personally vouch for http://www.nanaimo-gold.com/
  96 2011-01-05 01:39:31 <uberjar> Guest32538: I want to create a private tracker site that encourges people to tip good uploads using BTC
  97 2011-01-05 01:39:41 Guest32538 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  98 2011-01-05 01:39:57 <uberjar> Guest32538: it would be too painful to try to impliment micropayments like that with normal credit card processing
  99 2011-01-05 01:40:09 <comboy> uberjar: about bitcoin/trade, been there, browsed a lot, many exchangers are closed, this nanaimo does not seem to accept paypal or visa
 100 2011-01-05 01:41:16 <uberjar> comboy: generally speaking..  I think the problem is that trading an irrevocable currency for revocable credit is fundamentally a bad idea.
 101 2011-01-05 01:41:49 <uberjar> this is why you can't buy gold-backed e-currency such as pecunix or cgold with credit cards
 102 2011-01-05 01:42:09 <comboy> uberjar: any suggestions for other ways to get bitcoins then? other than generating them
 103 2011-01-05 01:42:14 <uberjar> because credit cards can "charge back" but there is no way to "charge back" a bitcoin transfer
 104 2011-01-05 01:42:39 <uberjar> you could purchase BTC with bank wires
 105 2011-01-05 01:42:59 <marioxcc> comboy: accept them as a payment for a service or goods
 106 2011-01-05 01:43:00 <uberjar> or purchase pecunix, cgold, or liberty reserve with a bank wire
 107 2011-01-05 01:43:05 <uberjar> then trade for btc
 108 2011-01-05 01:43:05 <marioxcc> or request donations
 109 2011-01-05 01:43:08 <marioxcc> you can get some in
 110 2011-01-05 01:43:15 <marioxcc> https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
 111 2011-01-05 01:43:37 <comboy> I already have 50 being lucky to find a block
 112 2011-01-05 01:43:42 <chuck251> buy then sell gift cards? amazon itunes etc..
 113 2011-01-05 01:44:13 <comboy> but I really do not want to spend too much time with this, I just want to invest some of my money, I' have my job I do not want to ttrade things for bitcoins
 114 2011-01-05 01:44:26 <marioxcc> comboy: then buy BTC
 115 2011-01-05 01:44:41 <marioxcc> they're not a game, if you want bitcoins you must work for them the one way or another
 116 2011-01-05 01:44:43 <comboy> I guess I'll have to try some wire transfer, but I have troubles finding service that looks trustworthy
 117 2011-01-05 01:44:47 <marioxcc> like other money currencies
 118 2011-01-05 01:44:58 zz_MT`AwAy is now known as MT`AwAy
 119 2011-01-05 01:45:14 <comboy> marioxcc: looks like you haven't seen my first question in this conversation
 120 2011-01-05 01:46:04 <marioxcc> no, I don't serach the complete log before writting a comment :P
 121 2011-01-05 01:46:05 <marioxcc> this is IRC
 122 2011-01-05 01:46:24 <comboy> ok marioxcc thanks for comment
 123 2011-01-05 01:46:31 <chuck251> comboy, I agree... if there were a site that would sell bitcoins for paypal, I would have bought a lot, but I don't want to wire money or give out credit card #'s, so I am sticking to generating for now
 124 2011-01-05 01:46:37 <marioxcc> np
 125 2011-01-05 01:46:49 <comboy> chuck251: exactly my point
 126 2011-01-05 01:47:00 <uberjar> comboy, generally what I do is I buy pecunix gold-currency to play online poker at pecunix casinos.  I buy this pecunix with a bank wire transfer and there are dozens of well known and reputible pecunix exchangers out there.
 127 2011-01-05 01:47:18 <uberjar> then I trade some of my pecunix for BTC when I need BTC
 128 2011-01-05 01:47:46 james__ has joined
 129 2011-01-05 01:47:50 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 130 2011-01-05 01:48:03 <brocktice> chuck251: there is bitcoin market
 131 2011-01-05 01:48:09 <brocktice> chuck251: also check out #bitcoin-otc
 132 2011-01-05 01:48:23 <comboy> hmm, ok so you reccomend pecunix? I was starting with libertyreserve as this currency to buy btc
 133 2011-01-05 01:48:33 <uberjar> either is fine
 134 2011-01-05 01:48:46 <uberjar> pecunix is larger, has been around longer, and I like better
 135 2011-01-05 01:48:54 <uberjar> pecunix is in a better jurisdiction
 136 2011-01-05 01:49:02 <comboy> so in case I go for wire transfer, any recommendationns for specific sites that accept that?
 137 2011-01-05 01:49:04 <uberjar> liberty reserve could be snatched up by the US FBI at any point and time
 138 2011-01-05 01:49:22 <uberjar> whereas pecunix is more resistant to interference by NATO powers.
 139 2011-01-05 01:49:38 <uberjar> comboy: yeah 1 sec
 140 2011-01-05 01:50:40 <comboy> if you are saying it's used in poker maybe I should also ask my friend that's making living out of it to sell me some poker currency that will be easier to trade to btc..
 141 2011-01-05 01:51:11 <uberjar> depending on where he lives he's probably already using something like pecunix or liberty reserve to play poker
 142 2011-01-05 01:51:26 <comboy> europe
 143 2011-01-05 01:51:50 <comboy> I'll ask then, that's a good hint
 144 2011-01-05 01:52:18 <uberjar> http://www.talkgold.com  <-- good forum for reading reviews about various exchangers
 145 2011-01-05 01:52:42 <brocktice> what's that site for CC purchases?
 146 2011-01-05 01:52:42 <comboy> oh, great
 147 2011-01-05 01:52:44 <brocktice> bitcoin gateway?
 148 2011-01-05 01:53:45 <comboy> "BitcoinGateway.com is closed for maintenance"
 149 2011-01-05 01:53:54 <brocktice> oh, damn
 150 2011-01-05 01:53:54 <comboy> like so many others
 151 2011-01-05 01:54:23 <brocktice> Well, I'll take paypal gift transactions for BTC.
 152 2011-01-05 01:54:43 <brocktice> go to #bitcoin-otc and do ;;getrating brocktice if you want to check my reputation
 153 2011-01-05 01:54:55 <brocktice> actually I think it should work here because gribble is in here
 154 2011-01-05 01:54:57 <brocktice> ;;getrating brocktice
 155 2011-01-05 01:54:58 <gribble> User brocktice was created on Mon Nov  8 17:16:40 2010, and has a cumulative rating of 15, from a total of 4 ratings. Of these, 4 are positive and 0 are negative. This user has also sent 8 positive ratings, and 0 negative ratings to others.
 156 2011-01-05 01:55:24 <comboy> well, I think we could try
 157 2011-01-05 01:58:02 darrob has quit (Disconnected by services)
 158 2011-01-05 01:58:08 darrob has joined
 159 2011-01-05 02:02:13 <luke-jr> wtf is this ECDSA junk?
 160 2011-01-05 02:03:39 <jgarzik> luke-jr: public/private key signatures
 161 2011-01-05 02:04:07 <luke-jr> why not something standard like PGP?
 162 2011-01-05 02:05:29 <TheRealPlato> read the whitepaper
 163 2011-01-05 02:05:42 <luke-jr> tl;dr
 164 2011-01-05 02:05:49 <TheRealPlato> SOL
 165 2011-01-05 02:05:52 <TheRealPlato> sry
 166 2011-01-05 02:05:53 <TheRealPlato> idfk
 167 2011-01-05 02:05:58 <TheRealPlato> i'm curious too
 168 2011-01-05 02:06:06 <TheRealPlato> did anyone ever end up making that explanatory video for a bounty
 169 2011-01-05 02:07:15 <xelister> do we have a good exchange that acceepts EUR wires?
 170 2011-01-05 02:08:03 <marioxcc> still no MXN exchange?
 171 2011-01-05 02:08:23 <jgarzik> xelister: mtgox accepts EUR wires, I thought?
 172 2011-01-05 02:09:11 <xelister> hmm I wonder though
 173 2011-01-05 02:09:18 <xelister> will places like mtgox have problems
 174 2011-01-05 02:09:21 <xelister> from the IRS et
 175 2011-01-05 02:09:23 <xelister> etc
 176 2011-01-05 02:09:44 Bossbear has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 177 2011-01-05 02:10:53 <kiba> anarcho-capitalism is a very foreign idea to most people
 178 2011-01-05 02:11:53 <brocktice> therI thought I was a libertarian
 179 2011-01-05 02:11:58 <brocktice> sorry about the ther
 180 2011-01-05 02:12:06 <brocktice> Apparently I'm more of an anarcho-capitalist
 181 2011-01-05 02:12:38 <kiba> you are a libertarian
 182 2011-01-05 02:13:09 <brocktice> there are some differences
 183 2011-01-05 02:13:11 james_ has joined
 184 2011-01-05 02:13:11 <kiba> anarcho-capitalism is a conception in libertarianism land
 185 2011-01-05 02:13:19 <brocktice> ok, fair enough
 186 2011-01-05 02:13:26 james__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 187 2011-01-05 02:13:28 <brocktice> You could call it a subset
 188 2011-01-05 02:13:31 <brocktice> anyway, time for bed
 189 2011-01-05 02:14:18 <AAA_awright> Anarchocapitalism ⊂ Liberalism
 190 2011-01-05 02:14:20 <AAA_awright> Right
 191 2011-01-05 02:14:26 <TheRealPlato> night
 192 2011-01-05 02:14:40 <AAA_awright> Or if you consider them seperate concepts, Anarchocapitalism ⊂ Libertarianism ⊂ Liberalism
 193 2011-01-05 02:14:59 <xelister> you know what would be nice
 194 2011-01-05 02:15:04 <xelister> free country
 195 2011-01-05 02:15:09 <AAA_awright> I like this ida
 196 2011-01-05 02:15:12 <xelister> all is legal
 197 2011-01-05 02:15:14 <xelister> erm
 198 2011-01-05 02:15:31 <AAA_awright> Well, no, free and law can co-exist
 199 2011-01-05 02:15:33 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/js-remote/ very early alpha, can display server information and balance
 200 2011-01-05 02:15:35 <xelister> all is legal that is now legal in sum of EU and USA law (OR'ing allowances, not AND'ing - so more things not less)
 201 2011-01-05 02:15:36 <AAA_awright> How about no *arbritary* law
 202 2011-01-05 02:15:37 <xelister> plus
 203 2011-01-05 02:15:53 <xelister> all to which all parties affected agree under no pressure (and in mentall capacity to do so)
 204 2011-01-05 02:15:55 <xelister> about taxes
 205 2011-01-05 02:16:09 <xelister> one idea I seen with this online
 206 2011-01-05 02:16:13 <xelister> was to just pay constant fee
 207 2011-01-05 02:16:36 <xelister> or, pay small fee for 'being in country', better if you want to access more or better services from the state
 208 2011-01-05 02:17:00 <kiba> twincest wincest!
 209 2011-01-05 02:17:01 <AAA_awright> xelister: Here's an idea. Everyone owns property, and the only laws you follow are those for those of the property of other people.
 210 2011-01-05 02:17:15 <xelister> basically state only ensures that agreements between people are kept and noone is forced to do things against own will,  and is NOT punised for things that did not hurt anyone
 211 2011-01-05 02:17:26 <xelister> AAA_awright: quuestion what to do with copyright
 212 2011-01-05 02:17:42 <xelister> e.g. it should be author's liberty to demand money or dissallow making copies
 213 2011-01-05 02:17:54 <xelister> and it should be customers liberty to copu/share it... what now :)
 214 2011-01-05 02:17:54 kartofeln has joined
 215 2011-01-05 02:18:16 <xelister> jgarzik: I didnt yet actually used mtgox transaciions
 216 2011-01-05 02:18:28 <AAA_awright> xelister: Well, the book is my property, to my laws. No copyright.
 217 2011-01-05 02:18:50 <xelister> AAA_awright: you made photo of your gf giving you bj
 218 2011-01-05 02:18:56 <xelister> am I free to copy it when you oppose that
 219 2011-01-05 02:19:04 <AAA_awright> A publisher could have a copyright of sorts, but only while they are the owners of the book. That means, not after they sell it to me.
 220 2011-01-05 02:19:11 <xelister> but I guess this falls under privacy&secrecy more
 221 2011-01-05 02:19:29 <AAA_awright> Eh, well, nothing illegal about it
 222 2011-01-05 02:19:41 <AAA_awright> Unless that person stole my camera to get it
 223 2011-01-05 02:19:45 <xelister> hm
 224 2011-01-05 02:20:17 <AAA_awright> Then who knows, accounting for damages resulting from the theft, my penalty could be pretty high, yes?
 225 2011-01-05 02:20:45 Bossbear has joined
 226 2011-01-05 02:21:00 <TheRealPlato> has anyone read The Diamond Age
 227 2011-01-05 02:21:17 <TheRealPlato> it describes a world where decentralized anonymous currency brought down all the nation states
 228 2011-01-05 02:21:25 <TheRealPlato> so everyone follows the Common Economic Protocol
 229 2011-01-05 02:21:36 <TheRealPlato> basically, you can do anything as long as it doesn't economically hurt another entity
 230 2011-01-05 02:22:33 <TheRealPlato> it's by neal stephenson. I just reread it, it's pretty prescient for a 1995 work
 231 2011-01-05 02:23:17 <kiba> TheRealPlato: "economically" hurt another entity?
 232 2011-01-05 02:23:41 <TheRealPlato> sure, you shoot someone, they have to pay bills, lose work, etc
 233 2011-01-05 02:24:08 <kartofeln> you offend someone, they have to go to therapy, and that ain't free? O_o
 234 2011-01-05 02:24:09 <TheRealPlato> you block a road in the city you live in, someone's gotta pay for it
 235 2011-01-05 02:24:50 <TheRealPlato> sure, if they can prove it in whatever court system exists in their... tribe, you get punished
 236 2011-01-05 02:25:13 <TheRealPlato> that's just incidental
 237 2011-01-05 02:25:18 <TheRealPlato> i like it just because it's a really good book
 238 2011-01-05 02:25:26 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 239 2011-01-05 02:25:32 <kiba> pyre
 240 2011-01-05 02:25:38 <TheRealPlato> very, very compelling plot, and it's set in a world where nanotech is pretty omnipresent
 241 2011-01-05 02:26:01 <kiba> and with the main character who got molested
 242 2011-01-05 02:26:37 <kartofeln> ah why not.. still seems like less work than unleashing the Singularity upon an unsuspecting world.
 243 2011-01-05 02:26:59 <kiba> 3D printers
 244 2011-01-05 02:27:00 <kiba> and bitcoin
 245 2011-01-05 02:27:21 <kartofeln> the day 3d printers can do more than shape molten plastic, I'll get a bit more excited about them.
 246 2011-01-05 02:27:37 <kiba> you can do a lot with plastics
 247 2011-01-05 02:27:42 <kartofeln> right now, reprap is an exciting concept with a rather lukewarm reality.
 248 2011-01-05 02:27:50 <TheRealPlato> you ever looked at the 'Art' section on www.shapeways./com
 249 2011-01-05 02:27:53 <TheRealPlato> FFFFFFFFFFCUCK
 250 2011-01-05 02:27:58 <TheRealPlato> www.shapeways.com
 251 2011-01-05 02:28:45 <kiba> kartofeln: well, they can already print electrical pathway or something like that
 252 2011-01-05 02:28:59 <TheRealPlato> yeah
 253 2011-01-05 02:29:00 <TheRealPlato> kiba
 254 2011-01-05 02:29:07 <TheRealPlato> you can print solar cells on flexible substrates
 255 2011-01-05 02:29:17 <TheRealPlato> http://www.google.com/search?q=thin+film+solar
 256 2011-01-05 02:29:34 <kiba> it's the matter of getting the extruder to support multimaterial extrusion
 257 2011-01-05 02:29:48 <TheRealPlato> that'd be baller
 258 2011-01-05 02:30:55 <kartofeln> holy fat circuits batman! http://blog.reprap.org/2009/04/first-reprapped-circuit.html
 259 2011-01-05 02:30:59 <kartofeln> still, it's a step.
 260 2011-01-05 02:33:00 Slix` has joined
 261 2011-01-05 02:33:02 <kiba> kartofeln: I got an idea of a self-replicating lego train network
 262 2011-01-05 02:33:03 <kartofeln> so uh.. here's a question I haven't seen in the faq or (recent) forums: What's to stop anybody from taking the source for bitcoin, start with a new seed block, and create bitmoney, or bitcash, or whatever?
 263 2011-01-05 02:33:23 <kiba> they can, but would anybody use it?
 264 2011-01-05 02:33:40 <kartofeln> why wouldn't they? It has exactly as much intrinsic value as bitcoins.
 265 2011-01-05 02:33:45 <kartofeln> so it becomes a marketing issue.
 266 2011-01-05 02:34:13 <kiba> we have the first mover advantage
 267 2011-01-05 02:34:23 <kiba> BY SHEER inertia
 268 2011-01-05 02:34:30 <TheRealPlato> uh
 269 2011-01-05 02:34:30 <kartofeln> yes.
 270 2011-01-05 02:34:38 <TheRealPlato> if goldman sachs knew this channel existed
 271 2011-01-05 02:34:41 <TheRealPlato> they would probably do it
 272 2011-01-05 02:34:53 <kartofeln> Still, expect that kind of stuff to happen once you reach a certain threshold of success.
 273 2011-01-05 02:34:59 <kiba> maybe it's too foreign of a concept to Goldman Sachs
 274 2011-01-05 02:35:01 <TheRealPlato> whatever inertia bitcoin has so far is basically negligible
 275 2011-01-05 02:35:06 <TheRealPlato> kiba: i hope so!
 276 2011-01-05 02:37:09 <alowm> you guys should read A Lodging of Wayfaring Men
 277 2011-01-05 02:37:13 <alowm> <-- hence my name
 278 2011-01-05 02:37:51 <alowm> it's about private markets/currencies and how they disrupt things :)
 279 2011-01-05 02:37:58 <kartofeln> http://www.sunnimaravillosa.com/books/lodging.html compares it to Atlas Shrugged. I'm scared.
 280 2011-01-05 02:38:43 <alowm> yeah, that aspect of it is less interesting than the visualisation of what untraceable/untaxable transactions will do
 281 2011-01-05 02:39:43 <kartofeln> full e-book apparently available here: http://agorism.info/_media/a-lodging-of-wayfaring-men.pdf
 282 2011-01-05 02:40:15 <alowm> it was originally published anonymously, so there was no one to really claim copyright on it
 283 2011-01-05 02:40:35 <alowm> that one was good, and i liked Toward a Private Digital Economy as well
 284 2011-01-05 02:40:49 <kartofeln> it's CC A-NC-SA, so all is well.
 285 2011-01-05 02:41:12 <alowm> quantifying trust is a pretty interesting problem to solve
 286 2011-01-05 02:42:23 Bossbear has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
 287 2011-01-05 02:43:58 <kartofeln> another n00b question: It seems like transactions are somehow tied to the block generation/mining process. What happens when mining stops/slows down drastically?
 288 2011-01-05 02:48:08 <dwdollar> Goldman Sachs accept Bitcoin???  That's a hoot...
 289 2011-01-05 02:48:28 <kartofeln> accept or subvert, whichever is more likely..
 290 2011-01-05 02:49:02 <marioxcc> so they're limited to small sites? :(
 291 2011-01-05 02:50:57 <dwdollar> Goldman Sachs would never endorse a currency that they can not control.
 292 2011-01-05 02:51:23 <marioxcc> ¿who is goldman sachs?
 293 2011-01-05 02:51:40 <kartofeln> it's not that bad. technically, they don't control most currencies out there, but it doesn't mean they don't play with them.
 294 2011-01-05 02:52:33 <dwdollar> A big investment bank in bed with the Federal Reserve.
 295 2011-01-05 02:52:45 <alowm> they affect USD, though, which is part of around 84% of all international currency trades
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 307 2011-01-05 03:22:58 <xelister> but um
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 318 2011-01-05 04:03:14 <johnyh> this is 500 BTC that was sent to someone - http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Pfhnh6EniEYxQEd9MbrHdu1iJ8RDRDVBD
 319 2011-01-05 04:03:23 <johnyh> it was sent with description/label.
 320 2011-01-05 04:03:30 <johnyh> where to see that label in the blockexplorer?
 321 2011-01-05 04:03:48 <theymos> The label is private. No one but the sender knows it.
 322 2011-01-05 04:04:05 <johnyh> ohh.
 323 2011-01-05 04:04:31 <marioxcc> i think they're not public
 324 2011-01-05 04:04:32 <kartofeln> is the lack of transactions attached to the early blocks due to the merkle tree pruning?
 325 2011-01-05 04:04:57 <marioxcc> kartofeln: "early blocks"?
 326 2011-01-05 04:05:10 <kartofeln> those kind of blocks http://blockexplorer.com/b/1
 327 2011-01-05 04:05:17 <theymos> kartofeln: No. Bitcoin doesn't prune yet (and probably won't for a long time). There were just few transactions then.
 328 2011-01-05 04:05:24 <kartofeln> oh ok
 329 2011-01-05 04:06:20 <kartofeln> is it correct that the creation of new blocks will slowdown over time and eventually stop altogether?
 330 2011-01-05 04:06:26 <theymos> No.
 331 2011-01-05 04:06:50 <theymos> The coins generated for each blocks gets lower, but the difficulty adjusts to keep generation steady.
 332 2011-01-05 04:06:51 <kartofeln> oh. so block creation continues at the same rate, but the value of each block diminishes?
 333 2011-01-05 04:06:54 <kartofeln> ok
 334 2011-01-05 04:07:23 <theymos> Eventually generators will make more on transaction fees than generations.
 335 2011-01-05 04:07:31 <kartofeln> once the value generated per block gets low enough, isn't there a risk of general disinterest in block generation?
 336 2011-01-05 04:07:39 <kartofeln> ah I see
 337 2011-01-05 04:08:20 <kartofeln> is there a technical document that goes over all this stuff? the initial paper is a bit light on those kind of specifics?
 338 2011-01-05 04:08:36 <theymos> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee
 339 2011-01-05 04:10:10 <kartofeln> one more n00b question if I may: I've seen pages that claim BTC can be subdivided in tiny quantities way below cents, yet it seems that current clients truncate subcent amounts from transactions. Is that going to change or am I missing something?
 340 2011-01-05 04:10:12 larsig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 341 2011-01-05 04:10:38 <theymos> It will change as needed.
 342 2011-01-05 04:10:55 <nanotube> kartofeln: that's just the client rounding... it can be changed - even you can change it right now if you edit code.
 343 2011-01-05 04:11:08 <kartofeln> ok cool
 344 2011-01-05 04:11:18 <theymos> Generators won't accept sub-cent transactions right now, though.
 345 2011-01-05 04:11:56 <nanotube> theymos: really? even if fee is paid?
 346 2011-01-05 04:12:13 <nanotube> i'm pretty sure with a .01 fee, they'll accept any amount
 347 2011-01-05 04:12:46 <kartofeln> in a world where sub-cent transactions are desirable, .01 is probably a lot of money to grease a wheel.
 348 2011-01-05 04:12:58 <nanotube> kartofeln: tx fee schedule will change as needed, to
 349 2011-01-05 04:12:59 <nanotube> o
 350 2011-01-05 04:13:01 <theymos> They will. I suppose you could bunde together tons of sub-cent outputs.
 351 2011-01-05 04:13:32 <theymos> Actually, transactions with more than two outputs aren't accepted, either.
 352 2011-01-05 04:14:04 <nanotube> oh really? is that one of the relatively-new 'safety checks' ?
 353 2011-01-05 04:14:29 <nanotube> mm actually, iirc gavin has created a multi-output tx recently as a test... and it seems to have made it into the chain just fine
 354 2011-01-05 04:14:44 Bossbear has joined
 355 2011-01-05 04:15:22 <theymos> That was on the test chain. He generated a block. This particular limitation has been around for a while (after the overflow issue).
 356 2011-01-05 04:15:45 <kartofeln> for someone wanted to stare at code, would you suggest grabbing from the SVN tree or from the github tree? Or are the two consistently kept in sync?
 357 2011-01-05 04:15:49 <kartofeln> *wanting
 358 2011-01-05 04:16:22 <theymos> Github contains code that might not make it into Bitcoin, I believe.
 359 2011-01-05 04:16:34 <theymos> They're nearly the same, however.
 360 2011-01-05 04:16:35 <TheRealPlato> did any of you see that guy climbing the brooklyn bridge and exploring subway tunnels
 361 2011-01-05 04:22:12 <kartofeln> are there any correct reimplementations of the bitcoin protocol? I remember seeing a mention of a java port.
 362 2011-01-05 04:24:10 <theymos> No. MT`AwAy is working on one (not sure what language).
 363 2011-01-05 04:24:18 nefario has joined
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 366 2011-01-05 04:26:24 <kartofeln> ok. thanks for answering all my questions :)
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 369 2011-01-05 04:27:31 <MT`AwAy> theymos: C++
 370 2011-01-05 04:29:45 <nanotube> kartofeln: there's also a java client someone's working on. ,,(sl java bitcoin client)
 371 2011-01-05 04:29:46 <gribble> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin-client/ | Sep 30, 2010 ... Get Java Bitcoin Client at SourceForge.net. Fast, secure and free downloads from the largest Open Source applications and software ...
 372 2011-01-05 04:30:03 <nanotube> and there's also protocol documentation on the bitcoin wiki ,,(bc,wiki protocol)
 373 2011-01-05 04:30:03 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification | Dec 30, 2010 ... 4, version, uint32_t, Identifies protocol version being used by the node. 8, services, uint64_t, bitfield of features to be enabled for this ...
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 376 2011-01-05 04:40:21 <luke-jr> I wonder, if governments would be more likely to tolerate BTC if BTC users all voluntarily paid the proper tax due for it
 377 2011-01-05 04:43:10 Guest1427 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 378 2011-01-05 04:43:28 james_ has joined
 379 2011-01-05 04:43:56 <nanotube> luke-jr: i'm sure some do... and for all they know, that's all of them. :)
 380 2011-01-05 04:46:14 <luke-jr> really?
 381 2011-01-05 04:46:14 <luke-jr> I mean, before converting to USD
 382 2011-01-05 04:46:14 <luke-jr> I would imagine they would have problems when converting later-- would the LR trust their claim to have already paid the tax?
 383 2011-01-05 04:53:54 <nanotube> luke-jr: well, gov't probably wouldn't accept taxes in bitcoin. :P
 384 2011-01-05 04:54:35 <luke-jr> nanotube: can pay taxes on BTC in USD :P
 385 2011-01-05 04:55:23 <kiba> the government might find bitcoin to be a threatening to their money monopoly
 386 2011-01-05 04:56:50 <nanotube> luke-jr: yes you can, i suppose, just like paying tax on foreign currency profits, etc.
 387 2011-01-05 04:57:50 <EvanR> whos money monopoly
 388 2011-01-05 04:57:56 <EvanR> visa, mastercard?
 389 2011-01-05 04:58:02 <EvanR> they own it all
 390 2011-01-05 05:00:39 james_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 392 2011-01-05 05:04:08 <luke-jr> hmm
 393 2011-01-05 05:04:24 <luke-jr> web bitcoind binary = 3.8 MB
 394 2011-01-05 05:04:32 <luke-jr> Qt4-based bitcoind = 5.3 MB
 395 2011-01-05 05:04:33 <luke-jr> -.-
 396 2011-01-05 05:06:16 welterde has quit (Excess Flood)
 397 2011-01-05 05:08:29 <luke-jr> bzr branch lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-qt # if anyone wants to check out Qt-based bitcoind
 398 2011-01-05 05:08:42 <luke-jr> currently just builds with qmake and uses QCA for hashing
 399 2011-01-05 05:09:20 <luke-jr> hopefully can replace all of crypto++ with QCA, then replace 'json' with QJson
 400 2011-01-05 05:09:32 <luke-jr> and anything else that makes sense
 401 2011-01-05 05:09:45 Bossbear has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 403 2011-01-05 05:10:57 <kartofeln> is QCA better than Crypto++?
 404 2011-01-05 05:11:09 <luke-jr> it's at least a standard system library :P
 405 2011-01-05 05:11:31 <lfm> then there is gcrypt
 406 2011-01-05 05:11:39 <luke-jr> but gcrypt is GTK/glib trash
 407 2011-01-05 05:11:52 <luke-jr> no idea on performance for QCA, but that's only important for miners :P
 408 2011-01-05 05:12:01 <kartofeln> are they all build on top of openssl, or do they have their own implementations of crypto primitives?
 409 2011-01-05 05:12:05 <lfm> noppe gcrypt is gnu crypt
 410 2011-01-05 05:12:15 Bossbear has quit (Client Quit)
 411 2011-01-05 05:12:19 <luke-jr> kartofeln: not sure
 412 2011-01-05 05:13:00 <lfm>  Libgcrypt (version 1.4.1, 4 January 2008), which is
 413 2011-01-05 05:13:01 <lfm> GNU's library of cryptographic building blocks.
 414 2011-01-05 05:13:10 <kartofeln> I see
 415 2011-01-05 05:13:28 Bossbear has joined
 416 2011-01-05 05:14:05 <luke-jr> looks to have its own MD5
 417 2011-01-05 05:14:09 <luke-jr> not sure where SHA256 is in the src
 418 2011-01-05 05:14:14 <kartofeln> I think the most obvious crypto-related win for bitcoin client would be to ship something with openCL support baked in.
 419 2011-01-05 05:14:46 <lfm> naw miners aree properly seperate modules
 420 2011-01-05 05:15:01 <kartofeln> not terribly user friendly, though.
 421 2011-01-05 05:15:10 <kartofeln> unless the intent is that only tech savyy users should have miners.
 422 2011-01-05 05:15:22 warner has joined
 423 2011-01-05 05:15:24 <luke-jr> good. opencl should not be encouraged until there's a free implementation
 424 2011-01-05 05:15:31 <lfm> fewer users as opposed to hackers mining the better
 425 2011-01-05 05:15:44 <kartofeln> hackers?
 426 2011-01-05 05:15:54 <lfm> programmers
 427 2011-01-05 05:15:58 <luke-jr> kartofeln: the core isn't user friendly, either
 428 2011-01-05 05:16:12 <luke-jr> the GUI can/should spawn core and any other modules as needed
 429 2011-01-05 05:16:18 <kartofeln> user friendly in that you get a pretty window and it takes two clicks to start mining.
 430 2011-01-05 05:16:37 <kartofeln> sorry, maybe it doesn't belong in the core from an architecture standpoint.
 431 2011-01-05 05:16:47 <kartofeln> but it ought to ship with the initial download and be usable from the gui.
 432 2011-01-05 05:16:47 <lfm> have bitcoin spawn a browser for the forums and irc
 433 2011-01-05 05:16:55 <luke-jr> kartofeln: CPU miner, ok
 434 2011-01-05 05:16:58 <luke-jr> GPU miner, must die
 435 2011-01-05 05:17:02 <kartofeln> why?
 436 2011-01-05 05:17:10 <luke-jr> proprietary driver required
 437 2011-01-05 05:17:35 <lfm> luke good idea, no one should be allowed gpu miners but me
 438 2011-01-05 05:17:37 <kartofeln> it's a bit like saying android must die because it can't run without proprietary drivers currently.
 439 2011-01-05 05:17:49 <luke-jr> kartofeln: ok, but Android should die because it just plain sucks
 440 2011-01-05 05:17:58 <kartofeln> purity is good and all that, but coding against an open spec has value nonetheless.
 441 2011-01-05 05:18:21 <luke-jr> sure, it has value
 442 2011-01-05 05:18:30 <luke-jr> just not bundled for end users until it's usable freely
 443 2011-01-05 05:18:58 <luke-jr> the only thing GPU miners accomplish is increasing the difficulty drastically
 444 2011-01-05 05:19:04 <luke-jr> and making it harder for legit/CPU miners
 445 2011-01-05 05:19:49 welterde has joined
 446 2011-01-05 05:20:42 <kartofeln> it would be fun if there was a way to "prove" in your block generation that the computation for it was done without a GPU.
 447 2011-01-05 05:20:56 * luke-jr just thought of a USEFUL proof-of-work, maybe
 448 2011-01-05 05:21:16 <luke-jr> what if the work was compressing the block below a certain size?
 449 2011-01-05 05:21:25 <luke-jr> verification is a simple decompress
 450 2011-01-05 05:21:32 <kartofeln> then there'd be a temptation to create cpu-only clients that would blatantly ignore gpu-created blocks, hence forking the chain for their own little cpu-only group.
 451 2011-01-05 05:21:36 <lfm> why is that usefull?
 452 2011-01-05 05:21:55 <luke-jr> lfm: puts that CPU power to making the blocks smaller
 453 2011-01-05 05:22:19 <luke-jr> possibly compressing the whole block chain, if more difficulty is needed
 454 2011-01-05 05:22:22 <lfm> and that is usefull how?
 455 2011-01-05 05:22:27 <kartofeln> from a pure number crunching standpoint, there isn't going to be a lot of problems where CPUs can still beat GPUs, I think
 456 2011-01-05 05:22:28 <luke-jr> savign on the disk space bloat
 457 2011-01-05 05:22:46 <luke-jr> kartofeln: then why don't we just get rid of the CPUs and run all our apps on GPUs?
 458 2011-01-05 05:22:48 <lfm> as opposed to a standard compression routine?
 459 2011-01-05 05:23:15 <kartofeln> because most of what we do with computers isn't number crunching :P
 460 2011-01-05 05:23:18 <luke-jr> lfm: that also: it could find new compression algos for general purpose data for us ☺
 461 2011-01-05 05:24:14 <lfm> why dont you have it find peace in the mideast?
 462 2011-01-05 05:24:23 <ArtForz> or a sandwich
 463 2011-01-05 05:24:23 <luke-jr> in fact, if block compression isn't needed, just give it random public user data to try to discover a new compression record
 464 2011-01-05 05:24:24 <kartofeln> but the "useful proof-of-work" idea is kinda fun.. an hybrid between bitcoin and distributed.net, maybe.
 465 2011-01-05 05:24:39 <luke-jr> lfm: that's easy, get rid of "Israel"'s illegal occupation.
 466 2011-01-05 05:25:40 <nanotube> or, equivalently, have palestinian state of jordan accept the bunch of "refugees" hanging out west of the river.
 467 2011-01-05 05:26:00 <kartofeln> <insert single unilateral action that somehow brings peace on earth here>
 468 2011-01-05 05:26:00 <lfm> luke-jr I think that was tried, back in the 1940s
 469 2011-01-05 05:26:10 <nanotube> or hell, just nuke the whole place from orbit. it's the only way to be sure.
 470 2011-01-05 05:27:15 <luke-jr> well, just nuke the middle-east
 471 2011-01-05 05:27:22 <luke-jr> then if there is still fighting, it won't be there
 472 2011-01-05 05:27:51 <kartofeln> you'd be surprised at how agitated radiactive mutants can get.
 473 2011-01-05 05:28:01 <luke-jr> keep nuking then
 474 2011-01-05 05:28:45 <luke-jr> maybe nuke all the big capitals too while you're at it
 475 2011-01-05 05:28:55 <luke-jr> post-apocalyptic world is fun, eh
 476 2011-01-05 05:28:57 <kiba> how in the world do we have a Chinese using bitcoin?
 477 2011-01-05 05:29:01 <lfm> agitated radioactive mutants with their own nukes to throw back at you
 478 2011-01-05 05:29:09 <luke-jr> lol
 479 2011-01-05 05:29:19 <luke-jr> lfm: well, dont give them nukes obviously
 480 2011-01-05 05:29:29 <kartofeln> bitcoin isn't supposed to cross the great firewall?
 481 2011-01-05 05:29:32 * luke-jr wonders what idiot was responsible for that decision
 482 2011-01-05 05:29:44 <luke-jr> kiba: it's a spy!
 483 2011-01-05 05:29:50 <lfm> luke you havnt been paying attention, isreal has nukes already
 484 2011-01-05 05:30:00 <luke-jr> lfm: because someone gave it to them
 485 2011-01-05 05:30:10 <lfm> ya well too late now
 486 2011-01-05 05:30:31 <luke-jr> get one of them suicide bombers to bring in an EMP?
 487 2011-01-05 05:30:31 <kartofeln> iran almost has nukes, probably from pakistan, which got it from.. where? India maybe?
 488 2011-01-05 05:30:45 * luke-jr wants nukes ;.;
 489 2011-01-05 05:30:46 Bossbear has left ()
 490 2011-01-05 05:30:51 <luke-jr> soon I'll be all alone
 491 2011-01-05 05:31:01 <kartofeln> I know, let's write a cool computer virus designed to disable their nuclear facilities!
 492 2011-01-05 05:31:04 <kartofeln> oh wait.
 493 2011-01-05 05:31:22 james has joined
 494 2011-01-05 05:31:25 <luke-jr> disable or take over?
 495 2011-01-05 05:31:26 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 496 2011-01-05 05:31:32 <luke-jr> why not just have those same nukes explode?
 497 2011-01-05 05:31:41 <luke-jr> save the expense of firing our own
 498 2011-01-05 05:31:48 james is now known as Guest44933
 499 2011-01-05 05:31:49 <kartofeln> google "stuxnet". it's a fun story.
 500 2011-01-05 05:32:07 <luke-jr> will it put me on a FBI watch list?
 501 2011-01-05 05:32:15 <kartofeln> you already are. don't sweat it.
 502 2011-01-05 05:32:18 <luke-jr> :p
 503 2011-01-05 05:33:47 <kiba> Asia is not as enthuastic about bitcoin
 504 2011-01-05 05:33:50 <kiba> we need to fix that!
 505 2011-01-05 05:34:20 <kartofeln> well, it certainly wouldn't be the first currency to be region-dependent..
 506 2011-01-05 05:36:12 <kiba> kartofeln: we have penetrated pretty much all the developed western nations
 507 2011-01-05 05:36:38 <lfm> and russia
 508 2011-01-05 05:36:48 <kiba> yeah, Russia is the special one
 509 2011-01-05 05:37:23 <kartofeln> "BitCoin: the white man's favorite virtual currency"
 510 2011-01-05 05:37:52 <lfm> has anyone tried ip address mapping of bitcoin nodes?
 511 2011-01-05 05:40:13 <kartofeln> is the only thing preventing Liberty Reserve from becoming the next e-gold that they don't have a US presence?
 512 2011-01-05 05:41:06 <kiba> kartofeln: naw, Bitcoin, the Western currency
 513 2011-01-05 05:41:28 <kartofeln> Mine is more transparently offensive though.
 514 2011-01-05 05:41:37 Cusipzzz has quit ()
 515 2011-01-05 05:41:44 <nanotube> lfm: yes, MT`AwAy has done that and put it on googlemaps somewhere
 516 2011-01-05 05:41:58 <theymos> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Map
 517 2011-01-05 05:42:47 <kiba> kartofeln: I am a westerner despite being born in Asia
 518 2011-01-05 05:43:08 Guest44933 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 519 2011-01-05 05:43:18 <kartofeln> I wasn't going for accuracy :'(
 520 2011-01-05 05:43:18 <nanotube> theymos: ah nice :)
 521 2011-01-05 05:43:19 xelister has joined
 522 2011-01-05 05:43:33 <kartofeln> darn. that map shows a lot of asian presence actually.
 523 2011-01-05 05:44:12 <nanotube> heh, mostly europe and usa, though.
 524 2011-01-05 05:44:25 james_ has joined
 525 2011-01-05 05:44:37 <kartofeln> yeah but definitely more than one lost Chinese soul.
 526 2011-01-05 05:45:00 <nanotube> heh yea
 527 2011-01-05 05:45:04 <kiba> you have to realize that it kinda basically reflect the connectivity of the world
 528 2011-01-05 05:45:43 <nanotube> btw, if anyone wants to see a live streaming block count over irc... feel free to join #bitcoin-blockchain
 529 2011-01-05 05:54:10 <lolcat>  /join #bitcoin-blockchain
 530 2011-01-05 05:54:29 <lolcat> Bwaah
 531 2011-01-05 06:03:18 james__ has joined
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 533 2011-01-05 06:09:34 <kartofeln> oh. small world. the initial concept for bitcoin came from a certain Wei Dai, who's also apparently the author of crypto++
 534 2011-01-05 06:11:54 <davux> does anyone have a French bank account where I could wire money and get bitcoins in exchange?
 535 2011-01-05 06:12:21 <davux> (European is not enough, it needs to be French)
 536 2011-01-05 06:19:10 james_ has joined
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 538 2011-01-05 06:37:39 Lyspooner has joined
 539 2011-01-05 06:37:50 <Lyspooner> theymos you around homey
 540 2011-01-05 06:38:12 <theymos> Yes. I owe you some BTC!
 541 2011-01-05 06:38:29 <Lyspooner> sorry, i've been away
 542 2011-01-05 06:38:44 <Lyspooner> what are these things worth these days
 543 2011-01-05 06:40:03 <nanotube> ;;bc,markets
 544 2011-01-05 06:40:06 <gribble> bcLREUR: 0.17 (28.93 BTC) 0.22/0.254 | bcLRUSD: 0.3 (3.93 BTC) 0.292/0.29998 | bcmLRUSD: 0.26 (100 BTC) 0.28/0.305 | bcmPPUSD: 0.2951 (500 BTC) 0.2945/0.3 | bcmPXGAU: 0.0061 (300 BTC) 0.0046/0.0062 | btcexJPY: 2 (0.8 BTC) None/None | btcexRUB: 9 (0.11 BTC) None/None | btcexWMR: 8.8 (44.81 BTC) None/None | mtgoxUSD: 0.298953 (91.475 BTC) 0.290273/0.298953
 545 2011-01-05 06:40:23 <nanotube> about .3usd
 546 2011-01-05 06:42:55 <theymos> I did manage to get ahead when considering my other Bitcoin-related bets.
 547 2011-01-05 06:42:56 <xelister> I wonder if price will go up from .3
 548 2011-01-05 06:43:11 <theymos> So what's your address, Lyspooner?
 549 2011-01-05 06:43:24 <Lyspooner> 1LiB9pMw1bNxxePix6khMfwVf56Z5qeHZd
 550 2011-01-05 06:43:29 <nanotube> what bet did you guys have? the difficulty one?
 551 2011-01-05 06:43:36 <Lyspooner> 10000 by jan1
 552 2011-01-05 06:43:40 <nanotube> ah
 553 2011-01-05 06:43:41 <nanotube> hehe ic
 554 2011-01-05 06:43:44 <nanotube> way over that
 555 2011-01-05 06:43:54 <lolcat> Will the new sandy bridge cpus be a lot bether at mining?
 556 2011-01-05 06:44:10 <Lyspooner> i've been away from btc for a month.  what's new
 557 2011-01-05 06:44:16 <nanotube> lolcat: still no match for a gpu i bet
 558 2011-01-05 06:44:20 <theymos> Lyspooner: Sent. I was really off on that one...
 559 2011-01-05 06:44:46 <nanotube> Lyspooner: i guess... check out the forums, and any new listings on ,,trade
 560 2011-01-05 06:44:47 <gribble> List of bitcoin-accepting merchants: http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
 561 2011-01-05 06:45:09 <Lyspooner> theymos, whatd you send
 562 2011-01-05 06:45:46 <theymos> 75
 563 2011-01-05 06:46:03 <Lyspooner> good man
 564 2011-01-05 06:46:15 <Lyspooner> how do i rate you higher and all that
 565 2011-01-05 06:46:36 <lolcat> nanotube: THey said they were bether at vector something
 566 2011-01-05 06:46:43 <nanotube> ;;whatis #bitcoin-otc wotguide
 567 2011-01-05 06:46:43 <gribble> Guide to using the trust rating system: http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/OTC_Rating_System
 568 2011-01-05 06:46:46 <nanotube> Lyspooner: --^
 569 2011-01-05 06:47:01 <nanotube> lolcat: mmm dunno. i'm just guessing really. ;)
 570 2011-01-05 06:47:24 <kartofeln> lolcat, to give you an idea, my phenom quad core does about 4Mhash/s, my ati 5770 does about 150Mhash/s. it's almost 2 orders of magnitudes.
 571 2011-01-05 06:48:06 <kartofeln> I'm guessing it would take something drastic for cpus to compete with gpus in pure number crunching.
 572 2011-01-05 06:50:31 <lolcat> kartofeln: But it doesn't have vector stuff!
 573 2011-01-05 06:51:14 <kartofeln> "When AVX instruction is used in conjunction with these improvements, it provides double peak FLOPS performance compared to using SSE4 instructions on CPUs."
 574 2011-01-05 06:51:23 <davux> theymos: i have a suggestion for blockexplorer.com
 575 2011-01-05 06:51:35 <kartofeln> if you believe that, and are willing to translate "double the FLOPS" into "double the hash/s", that's still pretty far off from GPU perf.
 576 2011-01-05 06:51:52 <kartofeln> that's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge_%28microarchitecture%29
 577 2011-01-05 06:51:59 <lolcat> Also the Sabdy Bridge has a built in GPU...
 578 2011-01-05 06:52:06 <theymos> davux: What?
 579 2011-01-05 06:52:07 <kartofeln> oh. well, that's different.
 580 2011-01-05 06:52:36 <davux> theymos: you could provide an RSS/atom feed for payments made to an address
 581 2011-01-05 06:53:55 <theymos> davux: I had considered that. Maybe email notifications, too. I'll do it eventually.
 582 2011-01-05 06:54:47 <davux> i'm sure it would be a killer feature
 583 2011-01-05 06:56:01 <theymos> Until I do RSS, you could watch http://blockexplorer.com/q/getreceivedbyaddress
 584 2011-01-05 06:59:48 Diablo-D3 has joined
 585 2011-01-05 07:01:42 <Sami345> :(
 586 2011-01-05 07:01:57 <Sami345> default client of Bitcoin doesn't care about bitorder :/
 587 2011-01-05 07:02:59 <kartofeln> lolcat, apparently the sandy bridge GPU seems a little better than an ATI HD 5450 for gaming benchmark. if that's an indication of it's openCL capabilities, it's definitely better than a plain CPU, but still not awesome (HD 5450 gives about 12Mhash/s)
 588 2011-01-05 07:07:44 uberjar has quit (Quit: bbl guys.. was fun! thnx cmnky.)
 589 2011-01-05 07:09:09 <Diablo-D3> no kartofeln
 590 2011-01-05 07:09:12 <Diablo-D3> its still a GMA part
 591 2011-01-05 07:09:14 <Diablo-D3> no opencl to be found
 592 2011-01-05 07:09:19 <Diablo-D3> dx9 only
 593 2011-01-05 07:09:21 <kartofeln> grmf.. my wxWidgets 2.9 build didn't put wx/setup.h in my /usr/local/include/ directory. I swear I followed the instructions :'(
 594 2011-01-05 07:09:29 <kartofeln> ah, well that's disappointing.
 595 2011-01-05 07:09:36 <Diablo-D3> its intel
 596 2011-01-05 07:09:38 <Diablo-D3> what do you epxect
 597 2011-01-05 07:10:09 <kartofeln> I guess it's only meant to be a remedial GPU for people who don't want to splurge on a video card.
 598 2011-01-05 07:10:39 <Diablo-D3> its barely enough to clear aero usage, really
 599 2011-01-05 07:11:08 Lyspooner has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 600 2011-01-05 07:11:50 <kartofeln> isn't openCL just a driver repurposing of basic GPU capabilities though?
 601 2011-01-05 07:12:03 <kartofeln> so in theory, wouldn't intel be able to write an openCL for their stuff if they cared enough?
 602 2011-01-05 07:12:10 <kartofeln> *an openCL driver
 603 2011-01-05 07:17:03 <kartofeln> for folks that build bitcoin on unix, does this error message look familiar at all: /usr/local/include/wx-2.9/wx/filefn.h:512: error: zero width for bit-field 'wxAssert_513::BadFileSizeType'
 604 2011-01-05 07:17:50 <kartofeln> the Google says I should add a -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 somewhere to fix it, but it seems odd, hence checking here first.
 605 2011-01-05 07:17:58 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: opencl is provided by a driver
 606 2011-01-05 07:18:09 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 607 2011-01-05 07:18:15 <Diablo-D3> GMA do not have the hardware internally to be a gpgpu
 608 2011-01-05 07:18:20 <kartofeln> oh ok
 609 2011-01-05 07:18:26 <Diablo-D3> no opencl, no direct compute, no cuda
 610 2011-01-05 07:18:35 <Diablo-D3> and no dx10/11 either.
 611 2011-01-05 07:19:41 sgornick has joined
 612 2011-01-05 07:20:39 <kartofeln> I'm reading something that claims the sandy bridge GMA can do dx 10.1
 613 2011-01-05 07:20:57 <Diablo-D3> I think the GMA HD parts can do dx10 now, actually
 614 2011-01-05 07:21:02 <Diablo-D3> but they barely hacked that on
 615 2011-01-05 07:21:14 <kartofeln> so still no hope of openCL goodness?
 616 2011-01-05 07:21:26 <Diablo-D3> not that Im aware of
 617 2011-01-05 07:21:32 * Diablo-D3 checks the almighty list
 618 2011-01-05 07:21:44 <Diablo-D3> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Comparison_of_Intel_graphics_processing_units#Specifications
 619 2011-01-05 07:22:09 <kartofeln> I can't even tell what column in that list would indicate openCL support :(
 620 2011-01-05 07:22:22 <Diablo-D3> none of them do
 621 2011-01-05 07:22:29 <Diablo-D3> that should tell you something.
 622 2011-01-05 07:22:45 <Diablo-D3> wait
 623 2011-01-05 07:22:47 <Diablo-D3> HOLY SHIT
 624 2011-01-05 07:22:55 <Diablo-D3> look at the HD 2k/3k line at the bottom
 625 2011-01-05 07:22:56 <kartofeln> oh yeah
 626 2011-01-05 07:22:57 <Diablo-D3> it does opencl
 627 2011-01-05 07:22:59 <Diablo-D3> holy fucking shit
 628 2011-01-05 07:22:59 <kartofeln> I grepped the page for it
 629 2011-01-05 07:23:04 <Diablo-D3> _wow_
 630 2011-01-05 07:23:13 <Diablo-D3> but its still not a dx11 part
 631 2011-01-05 07:23:19 <kartofeln> yay progress.
 632 2011-01-05 07:23:38 <kartofeln> still. that's probably enough to get about 10Mhash/s right there
 633 2011-01-05 07:24:30 <Diablo-D3> yeah something like that
 634 2011-01-05 07:25:23 <kartofeln> ok, I had to patch bitcoin/makefile.unix to add a -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 to the DEFS= line to get it to start building reasonably.
 635 2011-01-05 07:25:41 <kartofeln> not sure if that's due to my system's wonkiness (possible) or if the makefile.unix needs some patching.
 636 2011-01-05 07:25:55 <Diablo-D3> makefile.unix doesnt import the right cflags
 637 2011-01-05 07:26:17 <Diablo-D3> all reasonable libs on linux that need shit provide the correct gcc flags
 638 2011-01-05 07:26:27 <Diablo-D3> this includes wx
 639 2011-01-05 07:27:00 <Diablo-D3> wx-config --cxxflags and wx-config --libs in the right places
 640 2011-01-05 07:27:08 <kartofeln> yeah.. everything seems a wee bit hardcoded right now.
 641 2011-01-05 07:27:25 <Diablo-D3> it should be executing those directly, really
 642 2011-01-05 07:29:15 <kartofeln> w00t. linkage failed because it's using somethign too different from what wx-config --libs returns.
 643 2011-01-05 07:29:49 <Diablo-D3> theres two lines in makefile.unix that are named like wx_flags and wx_libs
 644 2011-01-05 07:30:05 <Diablo-D3> just put the appropriate wx-config output there
 645 2011-01-05 07:30:06 <kartofeln> no wx_flags on mine..
 646 2011-01-05 07:30:18 <Diablo-D3> theres two wx variables
 647 2011-01-05 07:30:20 <kartofeln> I grabbed it from github though.. might be my problem.
 648 2011-01-05 07:30:21 <Diablo-D3> its obvious which is which
 649 2011-01-05 07:30:52 <kartofeln> I seriously only have WXLIBS = defined in there
 650 2011-01-05 07:30:58 <Diablo-D3> huh.
 651 2011-01-05 07:30:58 <kartofeln> let me check SVN.
 652 2011-01-05 07:31:05 <Diablo-D3> maybe it changed and I didnt notice
 653 2011-01-05 07:31:21 * Diablo-D3 doesnt build bitcoin with ui, so no wx req
 654 2011-01-05 07:32:25 <kartofeln> so.. would it be horrible to update makefile.unix to actually call wx-config to populate those things?
 655 2011-01-05 07:32:35 <Diablo-D3> nope
 656 2011-01-05 07:32:38 <Diablo-D3> I did that once
 657 2011-01-05 07:32:46 <Diablo-D3> remember to enclose those in ``
 658 2011-01-05 07:32:51 <Diablo-D3> not '' not "" but ``
 659 2011-01-05 07:33:06 <kartofeln> I mean, updating the main tree with it.
 660 2011-01-05 07:33:26 <Diablo-D3> well, if you had repo access, sure
 661 2011-01-05 07:33:29 <Diablo-D3> but no one does
 662 2011-01-05 07:33:45 <kartofeln> lol
 663 2011-01-05 07:33:50 <Diablo-D3> thats what the makefile should have used to begin with, btw
 664 2011-01-05 07:33:53 <kartofeln> alright. I'm starting to grasp the problem.
 665 2011-01-05 07:33:55 <Diablo-D3> thats what ALL makefiles essentially do
 666 2011-01-05 07:36:27 <kartofeln> Well at least I've got stuff running from source now. that's happy.
 667 2011-01-05 07:36:51 <kartofeln> thanks for the help.
 668 2011-01-05 07:37:22 <kartofeln> there was a post on the forum about opening up the tree.. maybe I'll try to push that little patch back in there.
 669 2011-01-05 07:38:49 <Diablo-D3> you could always send a patch to gavin
 670 2011-01-05 07:38:56 <Diablo-D3> the github repo is his
 671 2011-01-05 07:44:32 <lolcat> So the i7-2600K will be able to get 12mhash, in addition to some from the mid end ati card :D
 672 2011-01-05 07:44:52 <Diablo-D3> thats... sad.
 673 2011-01-05 07:45:13 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
 674 2011-01-05 07:46:04 <Diablo-D3> so, roughly....
 675 2011-01-05 07:46:18 <Diablo-D3> a 5450
 676 2011-01-05 07:46:41 <lolcat> I think I want a 5850
 677 2011-01-05 07:46:48 <Diablo-D3> well
 678 2011-01-05 07:47:30 <Diablo-D3> you want a { 6850, 6870, 5850, 5870, 6950, 6970, 5970, 6990 }
 679 2011-01-05 07:47:48 <Diablo-D3> combined dollar/watt efficiency, from lowest to highest
 680 2011-01-05 07:47:52 <Diablo-D3> of all the cards worth buying
 681 2011-01-05 07:48:01 <lolcat> But watts are free
 682 2011-01-05 07:48:09 <Diablo-D3> only if you're not paying the power bill.
 683 2011-01-05 07:48:26 <lolcat> I pay the same price if I use 2000watt or 5000
 684 2011-01-05 07:48:33 <lolcat> Fixed rate
 685 2011-01-05 07:48:40 <Diablo-D3> then you're not paying the power bill.
 686 2011-01-05 07:48:50 <Diablo-D3> at that rate, you'd just go directly for 5970s
 687 2011-01-05 07:49:23 <kartofeln> I do wonder if I'm shortening the life of my video card by keeping it at a steady 76`c
 688 2011-01-05 07:49:32 <Diablo-D3> 76? no.
 689 2011-01-05 07:49:35 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, have you noticed that Bitcoin doesn't care about byte order :(
 690 2011-01-05 07:49:35 <Diablo-D3> try to keep it below 80
 691 2011-01-05 07:49:46 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: its not endian aware, yes
 692 2011-01-05 07:49:54 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: notice my miner handles bullshit there.
 693 2011-01-05 07:50:00 <Sami345> that's bad
 694 2011-01-05 07:50:01 <Diablo-D3> it endian flips the getwork shit
 695 2011-01-05 07:50:16 <Diablo-D3> technically I should add a flag asking what the host's endian is
 696 2011-01-05 07:50:31 * lolcat goes to check what the price of the 5970 is
 697 2011-01-05 07:50:38 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: $500 some
 698 2011-01-05 07:50:39 <Sami345> you just think that the host is same as your computer=
 699 2011-01-05 07:50:53 <Sami345> *?
 700 2011-01-05 07:50:53 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: no
 701 2011-01-05 07:50:59 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: mine assumes it is always little endian
 702 2011-01-05 07:51:03 <Sami345> oh ok
 703 2011-01-05 07:51:09 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: java's parser for this always assumes its big endian
 704 2011-01-05 07:51:13 <Diablo-D3> so I always flip
 705 2011-01-05 07:51:28 <Diablo-D3> and since its human readable text, it always SHOULD be big endian
 706 2011-01-05 07:51:47 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: btw, this ONLY applies to the host
 707 2011-01-05 07:51:52 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt matter what my miner is ran on
 708 2011-01-05 07:51:59 <Diablo-D3> since java always does shit in a big endian way
 709 2011-01-05 07:52:13 <Diablo-D3> so, my miner could be on mips, a sparc, ppc
 710 2011-01-05 07:52:18 <Diablo-D3> and it wouldnt matter
 711 2011-01-05 07:52:23 <lolcat> My shop doesn't have the 5970
 712 2011-01-05 07:52:35 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: everyone is running out of stock
 713 2011-01-05 07:52:38 <Sami345> lolcat, you shops?
 714 2011-01-05 07:52:39 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: and 6990 isnt out yet
 715 2011-01-05 07:52:45 <Sami345> internet is full of shops
 716 2011-01-05 07:52:48 <xelister> lolcat: what country ;)
 717 2011-01-05 07:53:08 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: just take the list I put above, and see what you can afford
 718 2011-01-05 07:53:11 <lolcat> It does however have the 5850 and the 6870
 719 2011-01-05 07:53:18 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: start from the right side and go down
 720 2011-01-05 07:53:20 <xelister> Diablo-D3: yes,  there are so many Radeon's drivers of OpenCL portedt do sparc
 721 2011-01-05 07:53:35 <lolcat> Diablo-D3: 6879 isnt that high in price
 722 2011-01-05 07:53:57 <Diablo-D3> 6870 has the miner performance of a 5850, but the 3D performance of a 5870
 723 2011-01-05 07:53:58 <Diablo-D3> give or take
 724 2011-01-05 07:54:25 <lolcat> Most of the stuff I watch is 2D anyways
 725 2011-01-05 07:54:26 <xelister> 5970 are the gold so far
 726 2011-01-05 07:54:39 <Diablo-D3> if I was mining only, I'd take the 5850
 727 2011-01-05 07:54:43 <Diablo-D3> { 6850, 6870, 5850, 5870, 6950, 6970, 5970, 6990 }
 728 2011-01-05 07:54:47 <Diablo-D3> just see what you can afford.
 729 2011-01-05 07:54:50 <lolcat> But I have to wait to buy the computer to get the Sandy Bridge cpus
 730 2011-01-05 07:54:56 <Diablo-D3> heh
 731 2011-01-05 07:54:59 <Diablo-D3> why bother buying intel?
 732 2011-01-05 07:55:00 <Sami345> lolcat, it also depents how it rendered
 733 2011-01-05 07:55:01 <Diablo-D3> intel is dead.
 734 2011-01-05 07:55:05 <Diablo-D3> buy amd.
 735 2011-01-05 07:55:06 <lolcat> I like intel
 736 2011-01-05 07:55:08 <Diablo-D3> cheaper, faster.
 737 2011-01-05 07:55:13 <Diablo-D3> lolcat: you like wasting money?
 738 2011-01-05 07:55:18 <Diablo-D3> nothing intel can do at this point can beat AMD
 739 2011-01-05 07:55:19 <lolcat> I don't care for money
 740 2011-01-05 07:55:28 <kartofeln> I like AMD. it keeps my nice and warm in winter.
 741 2011-01-05 07:55:41 <Sami345> If I had unlimited money, I'd buy NVidia
 742 2011-01-05 07:55:48 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: no you wouldnt
 743 2011-01-05 07:55:49 <Sami345> but for cheap, AMD
 744 2011-01-05 07:55:54 <Diablo-D3> you'd buy all the 5970s you could find
 745 2011-01-05 07:56:04 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, Phys-X :/
 746 2011-01-05 07:56:05 <lolcat> I don't know, but my first box was a Pentium 133mhz with windows 95
 747 2011-01-05 07:56:19 <lolcat> It is some nostalgia about it
 748 2011-01-05 07:56:40 <Sami345> lolcat, same here :)
 749 2011-01-05 07:56:56 <Sami345> I got my first computer 2003
 750 2011-01-05 07:57:03 <ArtForz> sorry, but intels low-end offerings suck
 751 2011-01-05 07:57:13 <lolcat> Who said low end?
 752 2011-01-05 07:57:22 <lolcat> I want the i7-2600K
 753 2011-01-05 07:57:25 <ArtForz> who needs a hexcore in a miner box?
 754 2011-01-05 07:57:38 <lolcat> It is a fileserver that will also mine
 755 2011-01-05 07:57:50 <ArtForz> and fileservers need CPU nowadays?
 756 2011-01-05 07:58:10 <lolcat> I don't know, I like computers, money will be worthless some day
 757 2011-01-05 07:58:11 <Sami345> more like good connection and fast hard drive
 758 2011-01-05 07:58:21 <lolcat> Why not entertain myself with a sweet computer?
 759 2011-01-05 07:58:36 <ArtForz> with a A64-X2 4800+ and AES256 encrypted HDs my fileserver happily does 80MB/s
 760 2011-01-05 07:58:48 <Sami345> lolcat, so you want processor to do some idling? :d
 761 2011-01-05 07:58:51 <lolcat> I have a gigabit network at home
 762 2011-01-05 07:59:12 <lolcat> A D-Link DGS-1224t if remember correctly
 763 2011-01-05 07:59:12 <ArtForz> 80MB/s, not Mbit
 764 2011-01-05 07:59:13 <Sami345> lolcat, wtf O.o
 765 2011-01-05 07:59:26 <lolcat> 24 ports in a tiny place
 766 2011-01-05 07:59:44 <lolcat> Couldn't even fit that many computers there xD
 767 2011-01-05 07:59:44 <Diablo-D3> [02:52:51] <Sami345> Diablo-D3, Phys-X :/
 768 2011-01-05 07:59:48 <Diablo-D3> physx is software
 769 2011-01-05 07:59:52 <Diablo-D3> and people hacked it to run on amd
 770 2011-01-05 07:59:56 <Diablo-D3> and no game worth playing uses it
 771 2011-01-05 08:00:03 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, give me link then
 772 2011-01-05 08:00:08 <Sami345> I haven't find any
 773 2011-01-05 08:00:13 <Diablo-D3> because no one uses it.
 774 2011-01-05 08:00:15 <Diablo-D3> seriously.
 775 2011-01-05 08:00:23 <ArtForz> mainly because physx is a marketing gimmick by nvidia
 776 2011-01-05 08:00:34 <Diablo-D3> it has nothing to do with physics
 777 2011-01-05 08:00:35 <Sami345> Crazy Machines 2 uses
 778 2011-01-05 08:00:37 <Diablo-D3> and all to do with fancy gfx
 779 2011-01-05 08:00:57 <Diablo-D3> like, realtime rendered flags flying about in the air
 780 2011-01-05 08:01:02 <lolcat> Any new bitcoin services?
 781 2011-01-05 08:01:08 <Diablo-D3> or colored sparks (instead of white ones)
 782 2011-01-05 08:01:10 <Diablo-D3> or other stupid shit
 783 2011-01-05 08:01:28 <ArtForz> yup, pretty much anyone using a physics engine for anything not purely eye-candy uses something else
 784 2011-01-05 08:02:02 <Sami345> is there many 3D-physic engines?
 785 2011-01-05 08:02:06 <Diablo-D3> yes
 786 2011-01-05 08:02:08 <Diablo-D3> havok for one
 787 2011-01-05 08:02:11 <Diablo-D3> which EVERYONE uses
 788 2011-01-05 08:02:22 <Diablo-D3> its hard to find a game that isnt using havok
 789 2011-01-05 08:02:23 <ArtForz> iirc about every major game engine has one nowadays
 790 2011-01-05 08:03:53 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, does Source Engine use it? :P
 791 2011-01-05 08:04:08 <Sami345> there are many games using Source Engine
 792 2011-01-05 08:04:15 <Diablo-D3> source uses havok iirc
 793 2011-01-05 08:04:19 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 794 2011-01-05 08:04:30 <ArtForz> yup
 795 2011-01-05 08:04:33 <ArtForz> custom havok
 796 2011-01-05 08:04:42 <Sami345> iirc? in Internet Relay Chat? :D
 797 2011-01-05 08:04:50 <Diablo-D3> if I remember correctly
 798 2011-01-05 08:04:55 * Diablo-D3 beats Sami345 with a cluebat
 799 2011-01-05 08:06:32 <ArtForz> btw, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
 800 2011-01-05 08:06:59 <Diablo-D3> ahh, it moved to the wiki?
 801 2011-01-05 08:07:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, those new sandy vagina GMAs?
 802 2011-01-05 08:07:12 <ArtForz> yeah, someone wikified my old TSV
 803 2011-01-05 08:07:14 <Diablo-D3> they do opencl.
 804 2011-01-05 08:07:24 <ArtForz> slooowly
 805 2011-01-05 08:07:34 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but at least THEY FINALLY FUCKING DO IT
 806 2011-01-05 08:07:43 <Diablo-D3> it took them 5 fucking years to join the modern world
 807 2011-01-05 08:08:02 <ArtForz> and it's probably faster to use AMDs OCL drivers and run your OCL on the CPU ;)
 808 2011-01-05 08:08:25 <Diablo-D3> sadly, yes
 809 2011-01-05 08:08:28 <ArtForz> GMAs shaders are so slow it's not even funny
 810 2011-01-05 08:09:07 <ArtForz> 8 ALUs at 500MHz or something equally laughable
 811 2011-01-05 08:10:54 <Diablo-D3> well
 812 2011-01-05 08:10:55 <Diablo-D3> at least
 813 2011-01-05 08:10:58 <Diablo-D3> they can decode blurays now
 814 2011-01-05 08:11:03 <Diablo-D3> problem is
 815 2011-01-05 08:11:08 <Diablo-D3> the fucking atoms use gmas THAT STILL FUCKING CANT
 816 2011-01-05 08:11:28 <ArtForz> = about on-par with a GF6600 or a X800
 817 2011-01-05 08:11:53 <Diablo-D3> or doing it by hand
 818 2011-01-05 08:11:57 <Diablo-D3> srsly
 819 2011-01-05 08:12:20 <ArtForz> which were mid-range GPUs... about 6 years ago
 820 2011-01-05 08:13:32 <ArtForz> btw, did atom finally catch up to P3 ? *g*
 821 2011-01-05 08:13:53 <Diablo-D3> ARMs did >_>
 822 2011-01-05 08:15:10 <Diablo-D3> heehhhh
 823 2011-01-05 08:15:33 <Diablo-D3> I just noticed the pool has new stats
 824 2011-01-05 08:16:11 <Diablo-D3> it says Im doing about 81.5 mhash
 825 2011-01-05 08:16:12 <Diablo-D3> lol
 826 2011-01-05 08:17:08 <kartofeln> if you're using bitcoin.cz's pool, their mhash stats are violently wrong at times.
 827 2011-01-05 08:17:21 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: he just added them
 828 2011-01-05 08:17:55 TheAncientGoat has joined
 829 2011-01-05 08:17:59 <kartofeln> I consistently do 148 mhash/s, and I've seen it listed as high as 200 on his site..
 830 2011-01-05 08:18:13 <Diablo-D3> like I said, he just added them
 831 2011-01-05 08:18:47 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how hes going to deal with when I turn my miner off
 832 2011-01-05 08:18:51 <Diablo-D3> my mhash/s better not drop
 833 2011-01-05 08:19:33 <Diablo-D3> his math seems to be about 50 every half hour per 100mhash
 834 2011-01-05 08:19:38 <Diablo-D3> it should be every 36 minutes
 835 2011-01-05 08:20:20 <kiba> hmm
 836 2011-01-05 08:20:33 <kiba> LWN seems to maintain an awfully high content to noise ratio
 837 2011-01-05 08:21:56 <Diablo-D3> it always has
 838 2011-01-05 08:22:00 <Diablo-D3> but the content is really boring
 839 2011-01-05 08:22:00 <kartofeln> dunno.. my mhash started showing really low, and slowly climbed to a correct level, except for the occasional wild fluctuation.
 840 2011-01-05 08:22:42 <kiba> Diablo-D3: not your cup of tea, eh
 841 2011-01-05 08:22:54 <kiba> MT`AwAy: you're neglecting your interview questions again
 842 2011-01-05 08:23:04 <MT`AwAy> oooops
 843 2011-01-05 08:23:58 <Diablo-D3> kiba: I develop software, I dont masturbate over the next version of linux
 844 2011-01-05 08:24:05 <Diablo-D3> and you're talking to someone that runs BFS, too
 845 2011-01-05 08:24:43 <kiba> BFS?
 846 2011-01-05 08:24:54 <Diablo-D3> con's scheduler
 847 2011-01-05 08:24:56 <kartofeln> I'm guessing it's not benign fasciculation syndrome.
 848 2011-01-05 08:25:29 <kartofeln> ah.. I think one of the custom android distro was using that briefly.
 849 2011-01-05 08:25:43 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yes they were
 850 2011-01-05 08:25:46 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 851 2011-01-05 08:25:51 <Diablo-D3> and they quit using it because they're morons
 852 2011-01-05 08:25:58 Amiga4000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 853 2011-01-05 08:26:13 <kartofeln> I was running a CM build with it, and frankly couldn't tell the difference in day to day operations.
 854 2011-01-05 08:26:35 Amiga4000 has joined
 855 2011-01-05 08:26:55 <kartofeln> but yeah, it seemed like a good match for mobile devices.
 856 2011-01-05 08:27:02 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: your kernel was probably setup wrong
 857 2011-01-05 08:27:24 <kartofeln> very possible.
 858 2011-01-05 08:27:32 <Diablo-D3> if you're not running a 1000hz kernel with preempt on full (not off, not voluntary) you wont see anything
 859 2011-01-05 08:27:41 <Diablo-D3> your latency is already too high
 860 2011-01-05 08:28:11 <Diablo-D3> now, if you're playing video games, using jack, or have a very high load server, you'll see a difference
 861 2011-01-05 08:31:38 <mizerydearia> Hmm, there are some people in #bitcoin-discussion that aren't in here.  Although there are also a lot let users in the other channel.  I notice a lot of nondev discussion takes place here.  Will there be a kind of segregation in the near future perhaps?
 862 2011-01-05 08:32:28 warner has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
 863 2011-01-05 08:35:14 <kiba> the developer don't use this channel to discuss stuff, mizerydearia
 864 2011-01-05 08:35:16 <kiba> as far as I know
 865 2011-01-05 08:36:30 bitbot has left ("See ya in #bitcoin-discussion ~_~")
 866 2011-01-05 08:38:23 <mizerydearia> kiba, There is more than simply "the developer."  Anyone can develop and there are several notable members of the community that have "developed" and are continuing to contribute towards the Bitcoin software.  Additionally they use this channel to discuss stuff.
 867 2011-01-05 08:39:12 <mizerydearia> It may be useful to distinguish useful developmental related content from unimportant useless banter.
 868 2011-01-05 08:39:12 <kiba> they don't discuss development of bitcoin stuff
 869 2011-01-05 08:39:15 <kiba> they discuss other stuff
 870 2011-01-05 08:39:55 <mizerydearia> If you check gavin's latest comments, that is one example.
 871 2011-01-05 08:42:05 <kiba> someday....the largest thread will NOT be about mining
 872 2011-01-05 08:42:54 <theymos> This channel has always been used to discuss all things related strongly to Bitcoin. I don't find it disruptive.
 873 2011-01-05 08:43:03 <kiba> hmm
 874 2011-01-05 08:43:04 <kiba> Nope.
 875 2011-01-05 08:43:20 <kiba> no evidence to support mizerydearia's assertion
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 888 2011-01-05 09:46:30 <kartofeln> is there already a mechanism that allows to send bitcoins over email?
 889 2011-01-05 09:47:30 <Diablo-D3> no
 890 2011-01-05 09:47:32 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt make sense to
 891 2011-01-05 09:48:05 <kartofeln> "Hi bob, here's this one-time use code that you can redeem for 2 BTC. don't spend it all at once :) "
 892 2011-01-05 09:48:11 <kartofeln> I don't know. I could see the use-case.
 893 2011-01-05 09:48:22 <sipa> with a centralized server that's possible
 894 2011-01-05 09:48:22 <Diablo-D3> this has already been discussed in depth
 895 2011-01-05 09:48:27 <sipa> and that already exists
 896 2011-01-05 09:48:35 <kartofeln> centralized servers make bitcoins sad though.
 897 2011-01-05 09:48:37 <Diablo-D3> yeah, if you have a centralized service who holds onto your coins to do it, great
 898 2011-01-05 09:48:38 <Diablo-D3> it works
 899 2011-01-05 09:48:49 <sipa> but you need to trust it both
 900 2011-01-05 09:49:04 <Diablo-D3> but you cant remove the coins from the chain and hand them to a different user in any useful sense
 901 2011-01-05 09:49:09 <kartofeln> I was hoping we had some magic crypto dust to do that too.
 902 2011-01-05 09:49:24 <Diablo-D3> you'd basically have to create a single use address in a single use wallet.dat, and then hand them the wallet.dat
 903 2011-01-05 09:49:44 <Diablo-D3> which is absurd
 904 2011-01-05 09:50:04 <kartofeln> that seems fairly close to the concept of a little cash card.
 905 2011-01-05 09:50:08 <theymos> You can make a transaction redeemable with a short code and then send them the code. The sender can redeem the code first, of course.
 906 2011-01-05 09:50:33 <sipa> it's not - it's a very quick way of sending money, and you can do it over any medium, not just the bitcoin network
 907 2011-01-05 09:50:49 <sipa> but there is no way the reciever can know the money wasn't spent yet by the sender
 908 2011-01-05 09:50:56 <sipa> except by using the network :)
 909 2011-01-05 09:51:01 <kartofeln> right. until they try to get the money.
 910 2011-01-05 09:51:09 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: to do this, you'd need another system
 911 2011-01-05 09:51:12 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt belong in bitcoin itself
 912 2011-01-05 09:51:39 <kartofeln> fair enough.. the challenge is, can it be a serverless system.
 913 2011-01-05 09:52:13 <sipa> the problem is: you need to send something that represents "money redeemable by one who has this piece of data"
 914 2011-01-05 09:52:20 <kartofeln> why do you say that attaching a wallet.dat file to an email is absurb though?
 915 2011-01-05 09:52:29 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: the client doesnt support that
 916 2011-01-05 09:52:40 <Diablo-D3> and you'd need two clients to generate the wallet.dat to begin with
 917 2011-01-05 09:52:44 <Diablo-D3> and its just insane
 918 2011-01-05 09:52:45 <sipa> which makes it far from absurd - only not yet implemented
 919 2011-01-05 09:52:46 <kartofeln> ah.. you'd need a tool to merge the two wallet.dat and stuff.
 920 2011-01-05 09:52:47 <kartofeln> ok
 921 2011-01-05 09:53:02 <Diablo-D3> I'd rather see a third party authority handle this
 922 2011-01-05 09:53:27 <sipa> i would however not vote for a wallet.dat file, but a way to export/import a keypair to/from a human-readable file
 923 2011-01-05 09:53:37 <kartofeln> is it worth losing the "there's no central authority" property for this use case, though?
 924 2011-01-05 09:53:52 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, you'd export everything belonging to the transaction and the address from the wallet.dat
 925 2011-01-05 09:54:05 <kartofeln> sipa: right. if there's no client support for any of it, we might as well go for something convenient.
 926 2011-01-05 09:54:08 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: not if you want a immediately observable trust.
 927 2011-01-05 09:54:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: you'd end up with, say, 2k worth of shit
 928 2011-01-05 09:54:31 <Diablo-D3> maybe 1
 929 2011-01-05 09:54:38 <ArtForz> why?
 930 2011-01-05 09:54:39 <Diablo-D3> you need the address keys and the transaction keys.
 931 2011-01-05 09:54:52 <kartofeln> sounds like one of those GPG blocks.
 932 2011-01-05 09:54:58 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yeah basically.
 933 2011-01-05 09:54:59 <ArtForz> just send the secret of the private key
 934 2011-01-05 09:55:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hrrm.
 935 2011-01-05 09:55:10 <Diablo-D3> maybe.
 936 2011-01-05 09:55:12 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
 937 2011-01-05 09:55:15 <ArtForz> = 256 bits
 938 2011-01-05 09:55:23 <Diablo-D3> the codes still couldnt be immediately available though
 939 2011-01-05 09:55:33 <Diablo-D3> you have to send the coins to the address and then have th enetwork accept them
 940 2011-01-05 09:55:37 <ArtForz> yep
 941 2011-01-05 09:55:40 <ArtForz> and maybe a transaction hash so the receiver doesnt have to scan the whole chain
 942 2011-01-05 09:55:41 <sipa> true
 943 2011-01-05 09:55:42 <Diablo-D3> so thered still be a half hour before your magic code works
 944 2011-01-05 09:55:46 <ArtForz> yep
 945 2011-01-05 09:55:49 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: no, make it short.
 946 2011-01-05 09:56:04 <Diablo-D3> and the reciever needs the whole chain anyhow to verify the transaction
 947 2011-01-05 09:56:14 <ArtForz> true
 948 2011-01-05 09:56:23 <Diablo-D3> the only additional information I'd like to see is WHATS in the fake wallet.dat
 949 2011-01-05 09:56:29 <Diablo-D3> ie, amount, etc
 950 2011-01-05 09:56:38 <ArtForz> the secret alone is something like 64 chars base64
 951 2011-01-05 09:56:44 <sipa> it could include the lowest block number in which a transaction to that address was done
 952 2011-01-05 09:56:49 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah
 953 2011-01-05 09:56:56 <sipa> so it would only need to scan everything after that block
 954 2011-01-05 09:56:56 <Diablo-D3> it'd be 2x a bitcoin address
 955 2011-01-05 09:57:03 <Diablo-D3> sipa: no
 956 2011-01-05 09:57:12 <Diablo-D3> sipa: because it can miss the chain and try again
 957 2011-01-05 09:58:03 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: actually, wouldnt it also need the address?
 958 2011-01-05 09:58:04 <ArtForz> yeah, you could put some informational info, like amount or whatever, but the reciver has to check the block chain and spend that output anyways to claim it
 959 2011-01-05 09:58:19 <ArtForz> address is derived from pubkey is derived from privkey is derived from secret
 960 2011-01-05 09:58:32 <kartofeln> is there any kind of CRC baked in a bitcoin address, to detect typos and such?
 961 2011-01-05 09:58:36 <ArtForz> yes
 962 2011-01-05 09:58:44 <Diablo-D3> so knowing the secret gives you the address?
 963 2011-01-05 09:58:47 <ArtForz> yep
 964 2011-01-05 09:58:53 <Diablo-D3> k
 965 2011-01-05 09:59:03 <Diablo-D3> so it only needs the address and the intended amount
 966 2011-01-05 09:59:09 <ArtForz> bitcoin address contains a sha256 truncated to 32 bits as checksum
 967 2011-01-05 09:59:18 <kartofeln> cool
 968 2011-01-05 09:59:29 <Diablo-D3> heh good ole sha256
 969 2011-01-05 09:59:35 <ArtForz> satoshi really likes sha256 :P
 970 2011-01-05 09:59:41 <Diablo-D3> well, its fucking useful
 971 2011-01-05 09:59:42 <kartofeln> when in doubt, hash it some more!
 972 2011-01-05 09:59:51 <Diablo-D3> but Im not using it in my stuff unless I need an always repeatable hash
 973 2011-01-05 09:59:58 <ArtForz> oh yeah, and we use double-sha256 pretty much everywhere
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 975 2011-01-05 10:00:08 <Diablo-D3> well, double sha256 builds other shit
 976 2011-01-05 10:00:18 <Diablo-D3> its not a unique trick by any means
 977 2011-01-05 10:00:23 <kartofeln> why is that, btw? is that out of worry that sha-256 might get broken?
 978 2011-01-05 10:00:42 <theymos> SHA-256 is even used for network checksums... total overkill.
 979 2011-01-05 10:00:42 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: no, it forms the basis of many message verification systems
 980 2011-01-05 10:00:48 <ArtForz> kinda, it's a often-seen best practice
 981 2011-01-05 10:01:03 <ArtForz> makes some classes of attack a LOT harder
 982 2011-01-05 10:01:10 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 983 2011-01-05 10:01:16 <Diablo-D3> and you're not limited to twice
 984 2011-01-05 10:01:22 <ArtForz> PBKDF anyone?
 985 2011-01-05 10:01:30 <Diablo-D3> theres other systems that use weaker hashes 1000 times in a row
 986 2011-01-05 10:01:39 <Diablo-D3> just to make key generation absurdly difficult
 987 2011-01-05 10:02:01 <ArtForz> = PBKDF, usually 1000-10000 times sha1
 988 2011-01-05 10:02:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah
 989 2011-01-05 10:02:11 <Diablo-D3> but thats not unqiue
 990 2011-01-05 10:02:34 <slush> jgarzik: "max scan time" --> I think it is more user-friendly than 'max nonce'. And even more exact, because the time is what matters.
 991 2011-01-05 10:02:35 <Diablo-D3> but its _ALMOST_ just a random seed
 992 2011-01-05 10:02:45 <Diablo-D3> the seed part being how many times you run the hash
 993 2011-01-05 10:03:02 <kartofeln> hmm.. 1e5 hash runs.. that starts to sound like a way to discourage brute force cracking.
 994 2011-01-05 10:03:04 <Diablo-D3> so if you dont know the number nor the salt
 995 2011-01-05 10:03:07 <Diablo-D3> you are fucked
 996 2011-01-05 10:03:13 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: it is
 997 2011-01-05 10:03:28 <Diablo-D3> infact, theres one that does EC shit that way
 998 2011-01-05 10:03:54 <Diablo-D3> not only is it an unusual crypto, its mathematically difficult
 999 2011-01-05 10:04:21 <Diablo-D3> so you crypt, say, your stream cypher key with it, and then do your actual payload with the stream cypher
1000 2011-01-05 10:06:36 <Diablo-D3> or produce your stream cypher key with it and input a plaintext password into the blender
1001 2011-01-05 10:06:53 <Diablo-D3> a few backup systems do it that way
1002 2011-01-05 10:07:07 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1003 2011-01-05 10:07:21 <kartofeln> yeah, I'm more used to the former approach.
1004 2011-01-05 10:08:06 <Diablo-D3> AES cant be brute forced realistically, and if you have to brute force the key just to produce one key attempt, fuck it
1005 2011-01-05 10:08:47 <Diablo-D3> (then again, you may not NEED the key if you want the data and no further data)
1006 2011-01-05 10:08:54 Zarutian has joined
1007 2011-01-05 10:09:04 <Diablo-D3> depends if you have the payload you want already or not
1008 2011-01-05 10:09:34 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: encryption is all about fucking people over
1009 2011-01-05 10:09:45 <Diablo-D3> its never perfect, it wont last forever
1010 2011-01-05 10:09:48 <Diablo-D3> but it makes it harder.
1011 2011-01-05 10:09:58 <kartofeln> yeah..
1012 2011-01-05 10:10:47 <kartofeln> I mostly like that there's enough aspects to consider when using it that almost every implementation ends up getting something wrong.
1013 2011-01-05 10:11:38 <kartofeln> although I suppose that's getting less common nowadays.
1014 2011-01-05 10:13:48 <Diablo-D3> http://armorgames.com/play/7446/kolm
1015 2011-01-05 10:13:50 <Diablo-D3> wtf
1016 2011-01-05 10:14:49 <kartofeln> needs moar blur.
1017 2011-01-05 10:15:51 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1018 2011-01-05 10:16:22 <kartofeln> n/m. game looked better blurry.
1019 2011-01-05 10:17:10 <theymos> I enjoyed KOLM. It has a big, interesting environment and good platforming.
1020 2011-01-05 10:17:34 <kartofeln> wait, there's some subtle 3d stuff going on here.
1021 2011-01-05 10:17:42 <Diablo-D3> kartofeln: yes
1022 2011-01-05 10:18:27 Pegasus-Rider has joined
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1024 2011-01-05 10:21:55 <Pegasus-Rider> Hello. Would you please tell if it's technically possible to cache calculated hashes so that a computing node need not have network connection?
1025 2011-01-05 10:22:42 <theymos> Several people on #bitcoin-discussion already told you that it's not...
1026 2011-01-05 10:43:40 <Pegasus-Rider> BTW, is there some way of making use of huge (16+ GB) amount of RAM for Bitcoin?
1027 2011-01-05 10:44:23 <theymos> Bitcoin doesn't need much RAM.
1028 2011-01-05 10:47:50 <sipa> why do you want it to use much ram?
1029 2011-01-05 10:48:56 ThomasV has joined
1030 2011-01-05 10:50:37 <Pegasus-Rider> Because I can get it for peanuts :-)
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1033 2011-01-05 10:56:52 <Sami345> Pegasus-Rider, no without huge amount of processor power too, I mean like super computer amount :D
1034 2011-01-05 10:57:18 <Sami345> then you could  possible need 16 GB of RAM for computing :D
1035 2011-01-05 10:59:28 <bd_> in the future, if transaction rates go up a _lot_, then keeping the database cached may become necessary. Then, and only then, will 16GB of RAM become necessary
1036 2011-01-05 11:00:29 <Pegasus-Rider> I don't mean a requirement, but a performance boost :-)
1037 2011-01-05 11:00:59 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1038 2011-01-05 11:01:35 <Pegasus-Rider> Anyway, I bet we'll see tenfold increase in transaction rates in a couple of years
1039 2011-01-05 11:01:46 <sipa> maybe
1040 2011-01-05 11:01:48 <sipa> maybe not
1041 2011-01-05 11:05:51 <Diablo-D3> fffffff
1042 2011-01-05 11:08:59 <Pegasus-Rider> Would you like a wager? :-)
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1045 2011-01-05 11:13:29 <Diablo-D3> fffffffffffffffffff
1046 2011-01-05 11:13:33 <Diablo-D3> lol my sore is negative
1047 2011-01-05 11:13:36 <Diablo-D3> *score
1048 2011-01-05 11:13:37 <Diablo-D3> oh well
1049 2011-01-05 11:14:40 darrob has joined
1050 2011-01-05 11:17:18 <dsg> Pegasus-Rider: Just make a ramdisk and mount on ~/.bitcoin if you really want to. But you won't see any real benefit.
1051 2011-01-05 11:18:42 <Sami345> Diablo-D3, where?
1052 2011-01-05 11:19:49 <Diablo-D3> Sami345: that game
1053 2011-01-05 11:19:54 <Diablo-D3> http://armorgames.com/play/7446/kolm
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1056 2011-01-05 11:34:02 <Diablo-D3> end message == bullshit
1057 2011-01-05 11:34:28 * Diablo-D3 still missing k l and t
1058 2011-01-05 11:36:31 <theymos> Did you notice that the end message explains the title of the game?
1059 2011-01-05 11:38:20 <Diablo-D3> theymos: yes
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1070 2011-01-05 13:05:51 <devon_hillard> are there CUDA miners so far?
1071 2011-01-05 13:07:51 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1072 2011-01-05 13:13:54 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: yes, but its pointless
1073 2011-01-05 13:13:56 <Diablo-D3> nvidia hardware sucks
1074 2011-01-05 13:28:39 <UukGoblin> yeah
1075 2011-01-05 13:28:50 <UukGoblin> I started to write one but gave up, it /is/ pointless
1076 2011-01-05 13:28:57 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: do you have any link for a good attempt so far?
1077 2011-01-05 13:29:24 <UukGoblin> opencl ones should work on nvidia hardware with recent drivers
1078 2011-01-05 13:32:51 <sipa> the coinbase of a transaction is (apart from the bits in it?) fully random?
1079 2011-01-05 13:32:56 <sipa> s/random/arbitrary/
1080 2011-01-05 13:33:17 <sipa> as in: no restrictions on length, or particular meaning of certain byte positions in it
1081 2011-01-05 13:42:15 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: someone already wrote one
1082 2011-01-05 13:42:17 <Diablo-D3> but like
1083 2011-01-05 13:42:23 <Diablo-D3> it hasnt been updated in aehile
1084 2011-01-05 14:33:21 MT`AwAy is now known as MagicalTux
1085 2011-01-05 14:33:43 MagicalTux is now known as MT`AwAy
1086 2011-01-05 14:36:28 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1087 2011-01-05 14:39:40 gavinandresen has joined
1088 2011-01-05 14:44:31 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1089 2011-01-05 14:48:38 ApertureScience has quit (Quit: This a triumph,I'm making a note here HUGE SUCCESS!)
1090 2011-01-05 14:50:23 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1091 2011-01-05 14:53:05 darrob has joined
1092 2011-01-05 15:16:22 <devon_hillard> Shares contributed in current round: 53820, Current round duration: 8:24:53
1093 2011-01-05 15:16:44 <devon_hillard> and with the 7.6Ghashes/s
1094 2011-01-05 15:17:26 <Diablo-D3> yeah, it seems we're stuck on hard to find block
1095 2011-01-05 15:17:35 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 7600000
1096 2011-01-05 15:17:44 gciii has joined
1097 2011-01-05 15:17:45 ApertureScience has joined
1098 2011-01-05 15:17:54 <sipa> each potential block is equally likely :)
1099 2011-01-05 15:18:16 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but due to the randomness, you get deserts
1100 2011-01-05 15:18:21 <Diablo-D3> no block in sight
1101 2011-01-05 15:18:31 <Diablo-D3> also, lol, I have 507 shares waiting
1102 2011-01-05 15:18:34 gciii has quit (Client Quit)
1103 2011-01-05 15:18:38 <sipa> we're just accidentally all looking in the wrong places
1104 2011-01-05 15:18:45 <Diablo-D3> exactlu
1105 2011-01-05 15:18:48 <Diablo-D3> its ACTUALLY random
1106 2011-01-05 15:18:52 <Diablo-D3> instead of smoothly random
1107 2011-01-05 15:18:54 <ArtForz> you get desserts?
1108 2011-01-05 15:19:03 <Diablo-D3> hurr
1109 2011-01-05 15:19:09 <devon_hillard> come on people, overclock your card 1% more, we can make it :)
1110 2011-01-05 15:19:12 <ArtForz> there will be cake!
1111 2011-01-05 15:19:33 <devon_hillard> it's winter, so cooling is easy
1112 2011-01-05 15:19:50 <ArtForz> if cooling is easy, you dont have enough GPUs
1113 2011-01-05 15:20:03 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
1114 2011-01-05 15:20:12 <devon_hillard> that's true, I have yet to replace my radiator with a GPU stack
1115 2011-01-05 15:21:38 <sipa> only 3.7% chance that it takes this long at 7.6GH/s
1116 2011-01-05 15:21:43 <ArtForz> damn, I'm a tab hoarder
1117 2011-01-05 15:22:22 <ArtForz> ff using 7.3G
1118 2011-01-05 15:23:21 nefario has joined
1119 2011-01-05 15:24:15 <ArtForz> ~400 tabs total
1120 2011-01-05 15:24:16 <slush> sipa: what's the probability that we find a block in 03:44 ? :)
1121 2011-01-05 15:24:46 <ArtForz> not 4'33" ?
1122 2011-01-05 15:25:16 <slush> yes, 3 minutes and 44 sec
1123 2011-01-05 15:25:22 genjix has joined
1124 2011-01-05 15:25:49 <sipa> slush: 2.4%
1125 2011-01-05 15:26:04 <sipa> (that's for finding one in 3'44" or less)
1126 2011-01-05 15:26:49 <ArtForz> exactly one or one or more?
1127 2011-01-05 15:26:54 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de6YDJvYr_4
1128 2011-01-05 15:26:59 <ArtForz> oh... 3'44 or less
1129 2011-01-05 15:27:01 <genjix> maybe one of you will enjoy my app
1130 2011-01-05 15:27:37 <sipa> ArtForz: actually that the time between two successive blocks is less than 3'44"
1131 2011-01-05 15:29:36 <sipa> which is equivalent to finding at least one block in exactly 3'44"
1132 2011-01-05 15:29:54 <ArtForz> yep
1133 2011-01-05 15:34:04 <luke-jr> bzr branch lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-qt # if anyone wants to check out Qt-based bitcoind
1134 2011-01-05 15:35:56 * sipa hopes bitcoind will never need Qt
1135 2011-01-05 15:36:13 Pegasus-Rider has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1136 2011-01-05 15:36:22 <sipa> (stressing the 'd')
1137 2011-01-05 15:36:25 <luke-jr> sipa: pfft
1138 2011-01-05 15:36:34 <luke-jr> better than libcrypto++ :P
1139 2011-01-05 15:36:55 Pegasus-Rider has joined
1140 2011-01-05 15:36:55 <ArtForz> since when do we depend on external libcryptopp ?
1141 2011-01-05 15:36:57 <genjix> i agree sipa. client code is no longer needed
1142 2011-01-05 15:37:02 <luke-jr> ArtForz: internal is even worse
1143 2011-01-05 15:37:19 <TD> cryptopp was the least painful part of building the client, imho
1144 2011-01-05 15:37:28 <TD> openssl and berkely db were significantly trickier (on macos x)
1145 2011-01-05 15:37:32 <luke-jr> also, Qt bitcoind is painless to build ☺
1146 2011-01-05 15:37:41 <luke-jr> oh, no idea on Mac
1147 2011-01-05 15:37:46 <ArtForz> only thing from cryptopp we use is sha256
1148 2011-01-05 15:37:53 <luke-jr> ArtForz: oh really?
1149 2011-01-05 15:37:56 <ArtForz> yes
1150 2011-01-05 15:38:04 <luke-jr> what about all that ECDSA nonsense?
1151 2011-01-05 15:38:10 <ArtForz> openssl
1152 2011-01-05 15:38:28 <luke-jr> but pulled in via libcrypto++ I guess
1153 2011-01-05 15:38:37 <ArtForz> no, plain ole openssl, RTFS
1154 2011-01-05 15:38:46 <luke-jr> ArtForz: I see no openssl linking
1155 2011-01-05 15:39:08 <ArtForz> #include <openssl/buffer.h>
1156 2011-01-05 15:39:08 <ArtForz> #include <openssl/ecdsa.h>
1157 2011-01-05 15:39:08 <ArtForz> #include <openssl/evp.h>
1158 2011-01-05 15:39:08 <ArtForz> #include <openssl/rand.h>
1159 2011-01-05 15:39:08 <ArtForz> #include <openssl/sha.h>
1160 2011-01-05 15:39:09 <ArtForz> #include <openssl/ripemd.h>
1161 2011-01-05 15:39:16 <ArtForz> no, no openssl, no sir!
1162 2011-01-05 15:39:37 <sipa> luke-jr, genjix: i was merely stressing that i do not want the bitcoin *daemon* to depend on any graphics library
1163 2011-01-05 15:39:50 <luke-jr> sipa: Qt isn't a graphics library
1164 2011-01-05 15:39:53 <genjix> sipa: i know.
1165 2011-01-05 15:39:54 <luke-jr> it's a programming language
1166 2011-01-05 15:40:04 <luke-jr> QtGui is the graphics part
1167 2011-01-05 15:40:10 <ArtForz> an, look whats in makefile
1168 2011-01-05 15:40:11 <ArtForz>    -l ssl \
1169 2011-01-05 15:40:19 <ArtForz> wonder what libarray that one is linking
1170 2011-01-05 15:40:22 <luke-jr> ArtForz: not in my qmake .pro :P
1171 2011-01-05 15:40:36 <luke-jr> also not in the binary off the site
1172 2011-01-05 15:40:42 <sipa> luke-jr: hmm, ok
1173 2011-01-05 15:40:45 <genjix> Qt isnt a programming language
1174 2011-01-05 15:40:48 <genjix> you mean QML
1175 2011-01-05 15:40:50 <ArtForz> run strings
1176 2011-01-05 15:40:52 <luke-jr> I mean Qt
1177 2011-01-05 15:40:54 <ArtForz> we link ossl statically
1178 2011-01-05 15:41:04 <luke-jr> sigh
1179 2011-01-05 15:41:10 <luke-jr> so much poor coding practices in bitcoin
1180 2011-01-05 15:41:22 <ArtForz> or maybe so many fucked up distros
1181 2011-01-05 15:41:22 <luke-jr> static linking, embedding other libs, ugly Makefiles that don't work…
1182 2011-01-05 15:41:30 <sipa> the distinction between programming languages, libraries and api's is vague :)
1183 2011-01-05 15:41:37 <ArtForz> redhat system openssl doesnt include ECDSA
1184 2011-01-05 15:41:52 <luke-jr> ArtForz: maybe ECDSA was a poor choice then?
1185 2011-01-05 15:41:55 <luke-jr> oh well too late now
1186 2011-01-05 15:42:07 * luke-jr hasn't figured out how to get ECDSA from QCA yet
1187 2011-01-05 15:42:17 <ArtForz> yes, lets use RSA and increase block size by 10x
1188 2011-01-05 15:42:25 <luke-jr> or PGP
1189 2011-01-05 15:42:43 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1190 2011-01-05 15:42:46 <sipa> PGP uses RSA
1191 2011-01-05 15:43:18 <ArtForz> no clue why the fuck we carry around cryptopp for sha256, might as well use ossls
1192 2011-01-05 15:43:41 <luke-jr> my bitcoind uses QCA for SHA and RIPE
1193 2011-01-05 15:44:09 Pegasus-Rider has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1194 2011-01-05 15:44:12 <ArtForz> the ecdsa part could get a bit tricky
1195 2011-01-05 15:44:40 <ArtForz> iirc we have some osslisms there
1196 2011-01-05 15:44:45 <luke-jr> I wrote a QCA provider for the silly hash160/hash256 stuff
1197 2011-01-05 15:45:14 nefario has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1198 2011-01-05 15:45:27 Pegasus-Rider has joined
1199 2011-01-05 15:47:12 <edcba> and .net ecdsa implementation isn't compatible with openssl one...
1200 2011-01-05 15:47:52 <luke-jr> tbh, I don't get what main.cpp is doing with SHA256::Transform
1201 2011-01-05 15:48:03 <edcba> double sha256
1202 2011-01-05 15:48:06 <edcba> iirc
1203 2011-01-05 15:55:09 <luke-jr> that's 'hash256'
1204 2011-01-05 15:55:36 <TD> edcba: are you sure?
1205 2011-01-05 15:55:39 <TD> edcba: ECDSA is a standard
1206 2011-01-05 15:55:56 <TD> the java bouncey castle lib is certainly compatible with cryptopp
1207 2011-01-05 15:56:01 <TD> it'd be surprising if the .NET version wasn't
1208 2011-01-05 15:58:35 gribble has joined
1209 2011-01-05 15:59:00 <edcba> ecdsa curves are maybe standards
1210 2011-01-05 15:59:09 <edcba> the way to store it isn't i bet
1211 2011-01-05 15:59:15 <TD> that's also standardised
1212 2011-01-05 15:59:19 <TD> ASN.1 encodings are used
1213 2011-01-05 15:59:22 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1214 2011-01-05 15:59:36 <edcba> ok for asn1 but which parameters are you saving ?
1215 2011-01-05 15:59:50 <TD> i mean, look at it this way. i've built a pure java implementation using bouncy castle that is compatible with satoshis implementation, and i didn't use anything non standard. so it's definitely possible.
1216 2011-01-05 16:00:12 <edcba> anyway .net don't like some parameters from what i remember
1217 2011-01-05 16:00:29 <TD> the public key is an encoded version of Q
1218 2011-01-05 16:00:30 <edcba> i guess .net is the culprit once again :)
1219 2011-01-05 16:00:35 <TD> the private key is just D
1220 2011-01-05 16:00:50 <TD> inside the wallet, bitcoin encodes the private key using an ASN.1 struct that includes other things though
1221 2011-01-05 16:00:56 <genjix> did anyone see that sony's keys were cracked
1222 2011-01-05 16:01:00 <TD> you have to extract D from it with an ASN1 parser
1223 2011-01-05 16:01:09 <genjix> and that the salt for the ecdsa was the number 4
1224 2011-01-05 16:01:14 <genjix> lol
1225 2011-01-05 16:01:39 <ArtForz> chosen by fair dice roll?
1226 2011-01-05 16:01:43 <edcba> lol
1227 2011-01-05 16:02:14 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1228 2011-01-05 16:02:15 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcbaeKA2moE&feature=related
1229 2011-01-05 16:02:26 <genjix> i was cheering and fist pumping throughout this video
1230 2011-01-05 16:02:46 <ArtForz> ahhh, the 27C3 presentation, yea
1231 2011-01-05 16:02:50 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1232 2011-01-05 16:03:10 <TD> edcba: http://pastebin.com/9cZJpzQ4
1233 2011-01-05 16:04:01 <edcba> i'll try with mono when i'll get time
1234 2011-01-05 16:04:19 <genjix> please boycot mono
1235 2011-01-05 16:04:32 <edcba> lol
1236 2011-01-05 16:04:48 <edcba> that's just a language with some libs
1237 2011-01-05 16:04:56 akem has joined
1238 2011-01-05 16:04:56 akem has quit (Changing host)
1239 2011-01-05 16:04:56 akem has joined
1240 2011-01-05 16:05:20 <edcba> if ever ms prevents anything i can recode a client in less than a week
1241 2011-01-05 16:05:26 tonytraductor has joined
1242 2011-01-05 16:05:31 <tonytraductor>  the btc client seems to be using an inordinately large amount of CPU...like 36% (3.2ghz celeron with 1.5g ram, debian gnu/linux). Is this normal upon initiation?
1243 2011-01-05 16:05:49 <sipa> tonytraductor: you just started it the first time?
1244 2011-01-05 16:05:57 <tonytraductor> currently it's up to 45%
1245 2011-01-05 16:06:03 <tonytraductor> more or less
1246 2011-01-05 16:06:06 <tonytraductor> first time it connected
1247 2011-01-05 16:06:11 <edcba> it needs to verify all transactions/blocks at first run
1248 2011-01-05 16:06:26 <tonytraductor> I did start it a couple of times prior, but it didn't connect
1249 2011-01-05 16:06:26 <sipa> you'll see a counter with a number of blocks
1250 2011-01-05 16:06:28 <sipa> right?
1251 2011-01-05 16:06:39 <tonytraductor> it's generating blocks, yes
1252 2011-01-05 16:06:48 <sipa> no
1253 2011-01-05 16:07:00 <sipa> well, could be
1254 2011-01-05 16:07:11 <sipa> but i assume it's just downloading existing ones and verifying them
1255 2011-01-05 16:07:11 <tonytraductor> well, that number keeps climbing
1256 2011-01-05 16:07:17 <tonytraductor> oh, ok
1257 2011-01-05 16:07:29 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1258 2011-01-05 16:07:37 <tonytraductor> I'm waiting for my free btc from the faucet
1259 2011-01-05 16:07:57 <sipa> it needs to go to 100000-somethingish before it can do anything useful
1260 2011-01-05 16:08:15 <sipa> 101166 to be precise
1261 2011-01-05 16:08:21 <tonytraductor> oh, ok...and then it will calm down and run in the bg?
1262 2011-01-05 16:08:40 <tonytraductor> just reached 60k, still climbing!
1263 2011-01-05 16:08:59 <sipa> yes
1264 2011-01-05 16:09:02 <tonytraductor> this is pretty cool
1265 2011-01-05 16:09:15 <luke-jr> unless you turn on a miner
1266 2011-01-05 16:09:26 <tonytraductor> a miner?
1267 2011-01-05 16:09:34 <luke-jr> generates blocks
1268 2011-01-05 16:09:38 <sipa> search for blocks yourself
1269 2011-01-05 16:09:42 <tonytraductor> oh
1270 2011-01-05 16:09:57 <sipa> but unless you've got a decent GPU to run it on, it's not worth the electricity it will cost you
1271 2011-01-05 16:10:15 <tonytraductor> right...probably not a good idea on this 3.2ghz celeron
1272 2011-01-05 16:11:06 <Pegasus-Rider> Interesting, how much a kW worth nowadays?..
1273 2011-01-05 16:11:09 gribble has joined
1274 2011-01-05 16:12:22 <sipa> depends on your location i guess
1275 2011-01-05 16:12:52 <tonytraductor> looks like the site needs to be translated to Portuguese (7th most spoken language worldwide)
1276 2011-01-05 16:13:24 <tonytraductor> Brasil, Portugal, Angola, Mozambique, Macão...huge market
1277 2011-01-05 16:13:42 <sipa> tonytraductor: i'm sure people would appreciate it if you did that :)
1278 2011-01-05 16:15:25 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 5600000
1279 2011-01-05 16:15:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 3 hours, 28 minutes, and 27 seconds
1280 2011-01-05 16:15:35 <TD> well
1281 2011-01-05 16:15:44 <TD> basically the point of the hashing is to make bitcoin strong
1282 2011-01-05 16:15:51 <TD> minting of coins is kind of an intended side effect
1283 2011-01-05 16:15:55 <TD> but contributing hashes always helps
1284 2011-01-05 16:16:06 <TD> so it depends whether you're in it for profit or idealism i guess
1285 2011-01-05 16:16:12 <TD> (obv both are fine)
1286 2011-01-05 16:16:15 <Pegasus-Rider> ;;bc,calc 2000
1287 2011-01-05 16:16:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 1 year, 5 weeks, 5 days, 7 hours, 47 minutes, and 32 seconds
1288 2011-01-05 16:16:36 <Pegasus-Rider> Yeah, I guessed right :-)
1289 2011-01-05 16:16:46 <devon_hillard> what is the command for the total network cracking speed?
1290 2011-01-05 16:17:02 <sipa> devon_hillard: it's estimated
1291 2011-01-05 16:17:11 <sipa> currently 120-125 GH/s i think
1292 2011-01-05 16:17:16 <ArtForz> estnextdiff * 2**32 / 600
1293 2011-01-05 16:17:20 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,???
1294 2011-01-05 16:17:21 <gribble> Error: "bc,???" is not a valid command.
1295 2011-01-05 16:17:36 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,help
1296 2011-01-05 16:17:36 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
1297 2011-01-05 16:17:43 <edcba> Integrated support for PVK file format and some related formats such as MS PUBLICKEYBLOB and PRIVATEKEYBLOB. Command line switches to support these in the 'rsa' and 'dsa' utilities.
1298 2011-01-05 16:17:45 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,estimate
1299 2011-01-05 16:17:46 <gribble> 16934.59728645
1300 2011-01-05 16:17:48 <edcba> http://www.openssl.org/news/changelog.html
1301 2011-01-05 16:17:54 <edcba> maybe it is supported now
1302 2011-01-05 16:17:59 <Pegasus-Rider> bc,btex
1303 2011-01-05 16:17:59 <devon_hillard> is that 16GH/s?
1304 2011-01-05 16:18:12 <sipa> devon_hillard: no, that's the expected next difficulty
1305 2011-01-05 16:18:21 <sipa> but it is proportional to the global hashing speed
1306 2011-01-05 16:18:28 <sipa> via the formule ArtForz told you
1307 2011-01-05 16:18:43 <ArtForz> so ~121Ghps
1308 2011-01-05 16:19:21 ThomasV has joined
1309 2011-01-05 16:19:25 <davux> what do you think of https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2625.0 ?
1310 2011-01-05 16:19:27 <ArtForz> or about 200 5970s
1311 2011-01-05 16:19:35 <davux> the RPS 3 offer
1312 2011-01-05 16:19:36 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 121000000
1313 2011-01-05 16:19:37 <sipa> TD: also count realism - a 1kH/s system will most likely never find any block, hence not helping the security of the network either
1314 2011-01-05 16:19:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 121000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 9 minutes and 38 seconds
1315 2011-01-05 16:19:54 <TD> it contributes to the difficulty
1316 2011-01-05 16:19:56 <TD> that helps
1317 2011-01-05 16:20:04 <sipa> not if it never finds a block
1318 2011-01-05 16:20:15 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 1210000000000
1319 2011-01-05 16:20:16 <gribble> Error: '0.0578843847528' is not a valid integer.
1320 2011-01-05 16:20:23 <sipa> of course it has a chance of finding a block, so on average it will help a bit
1321 2011-01-05 16:20:43 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 12100000000
1322 2011-01-05 16:20:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 12100000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 5 seconds
1323 2011-01-05 16:20:55 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1324 2011-01-05 16:20:59 <sipa> luke-jr: kH/s, not H/s
1325 2011-01-05 16:22:13 <devon_hillard> I'd need 386 ATI HD 5870 cards to equal network capacity :)
1326 2011-01-05 16:22:32 <Diablo-D3> hee 386
1327 2011-01-05 16:22:32 <devon_hillard> say, a maximum of 4 per machine
1328 2011-01-05 16:22:44 <devon_hillard> 96 boxes
1329 2011-01-05 16:22:45 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: wellllll
1330 2011-01-05 16:22:48 <Diablo-D3> you could do 8
1331 2011-01-05 16:23:08 <sipa> 8 16x PCI-e sockets on one mobo?
1332 2011-01-05 16:23:08 <Diablo-D3> if you got boards that had 8 pci-e slots (doesnt need to be x16)
1333 2011-01-05 16:23:17 <ArtForz> x1 is fine for mining
1334 2011-01-05 16:23:27 <Diablo-D3> could build custom cases like Art did
1335 2011-01-05 16:23:28 <Diablo-D3> btw
1336 2011-01-05 16:23:37 <sipa> oh, it actually works on less than x16?
1337 2011-01-05 16:23:38 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: why didnt you do 8? couldnt find good boards that had 8 slots?
1338 2011-01-05 16:23:40 * sipa didn't know
1339 2011-01-05 16:23:46 <devon_hillard> you don't need to move a lot of data to and from the cards when mining
1340 2011-01-05 16:23:53 <Diablo-D3> sipa: pci-e is required to support down to 1 working lane
1341 2011-01-05 16:23:59 <sipa> nice
1342 2011-01-05 16:24:03 <ArtForz> yep
1343 2011-01-05 16:24:03 <ArtForz> and decent PCIe risers are expensive
1344 2011-01-05 16:24:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: 15 of them arent required to be wired
1345 2011-01-05 16:24:24 <Diablo-D3> sipa: this is why its x16 and not 16x
1346 2011-01-05 16:24:30 <Diablo-D3> sipa: its not 16 faster, its 16 of them.
1347 2011-01-05 16:24:36 <sipa> i see
1348 2011-01-05 16:24:42 <ArtForz> well, techically a x16 card doesnt have to work at less that x4, but they do
1349 2011-01-05 16:24:57 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: Im not aware of any that dont
1350 2011-01-05 16:25:03 <Diablo-D3> due to too many boards being x16 electrically
1351 2011-01-05 16:25:07 <ArtForz> yeah, but PCIe spec says so
1352 2011-01-05 16:25:21 <Diablo-D3> yeah but its not a violation of the spec to allow it
1353 2011-01-05 16:25:28 <ArtForz> nope
1354 2011-01-05 16:25:32 <Diablo-D3> its just a violation of the spec for those mobos to have done it'
1355 2011-01-05 16:25:38 <Diablo-D3> and then its not as long as they clearly mark it
1356 2011-01-05 16:25:38 <ArtForz> well, yeah, you CAN support less ,but its not required
1357 2011-01-05 16:25:45 <ArtForz> a x16 card is required to support x16, x8 and x4
1358 2011-01-05 16:25:53 <Diablo-D3> btw
1359 2011-01-05 16:25:58 <Diablo-D3> it also fucks anyone whos using an external box
1360 2011-01-05 16:26:05 <ArtForz> y?
1361 2011-01-05 16:26:14 <Diablo-D3> express cards are only x1.
1362 2011-01-05 16:26:22 <ArtForz> and?
1363 2011-01-05 16:26:37 <devon_hillard> so say, 16 cards, this setup would rather need a server form factor to be cost-effective, right?
1364 2011-01-05 16:26:38 <Diablo-D3> how do you plug the box into the express slot then?
1365 2011-01-05 16:26:42 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: 8.
1366 2011-01-05 16:26:58 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: and no, theres no such thing as a server form factor
1367 2011-01-05 16:27:02 <ArtForz> PCIe bridge, who said a bridge has to have X uplink width?
1368 2011-01-05 16:27:08 <devon_hillard> I mean 1U or 2U
1369 2011-01-05 16:27:14 <devon_hillard> units with lots of pci-e slots
1370 2011-01-05 16:27:17 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: 1u would be impossible here
1371 2011-01-05 16:27:20 Zarutian has joined
1372 2011-01-05 16:27:24 <Diablo-D3> and 2u would be impossible to cool
1373 2011-01-05 16:27:31 <ArtForz> 3U is bare minimum if you want to fit a decent # of cards
1374 2011-01-05 16:27:34 <Diablo-D3> 2u doesnt allow sideways full height double width cards
1375 2011-01-05 16:27:49 <ArtForz> 2U you can maybe fit 4, and it'll be hell to cool
1376 2011-01-05 16:27:57 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: see above
1377 2011-01-05 16:28:18 <Diablo-D3> there would be zero airflow
1378 2011-01-05 16:28:23 <ArtForz> y?
1379 2011-01-05 16:28:46 <Diablo-D3> because 2u gives you two sideways slots
1380 2011-01-05 16:28:49 <Diablo-D3> not three
1381 2011-01-05 16:29:01 <ArtForz> well, premade 2U
1382 2011-01-05 16:29:17 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: remember, most desktop cases are somewhere in the 4u size
1383 2011-01-05 16:29:42 <ArtForz> and yeah, 2 cards stacked in 2u = no go
1384 2011-01-05 16:29:46 <ArtForz> you'd have to put em side by side
1385 2011-01-05 16:29:50 <devon_hillard> what to server farms do when they need lots of GPUs?
1386 2011-01-05 16:30:08 <devon_hillard> besides just paying IBM a lot of money to build them a box
1387 2011-01-05 16:30:21 <ArtForz> http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/poweredge-c410x/pd
1388 2011-01-05 16:30:28 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you just take normal 4U boxes
1389 2011-01-05 16:30:37 <Diablo-D3> and btw
1390 2011-01-05 16:30:46 <Diablo-D3> theres A LOT of faggots who buy shit like tesla shit
1391 2011-01-05 16:30:50 <ArtForz> 16 GPUs in 3U
1392 2011-01-05 16:30:54 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why, but apparently it involves masturbating a lot.
1393 2011-01-05 16:31:05 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: errrmmmm
1394 2011-01-05 16:31:13 <Diablo-D3> _wtf_
1395 2011-01-05 16:31:21 int0x27h has joined
1396 2011-01-05 16:31:24 <devon_hillard> but CUDA is the industry standard solution to increase shareholder value :p
1397 2011-01-05 16:31:28 <Diablo-D3> theres no way in hell thats 3U spec
1398 2011-01-05 16:31:47 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: nvidia shareholder value, sure
1399 2011-01-05 16:31:48 <devon_hillard> tesla are identical to the desktop card, except with SPUs unlocked, right?
1400 2011-01-05 16:31:51 <ArtForz> it's a full length 3U
1401 2011-01-05 16:32:02 <ArtForz> no, just without crippled DP units
1402 2011-01-05 16:32:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: that isnt it, full height cards are 3U height by themselves
1403 2011-01-05 16:32:13 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: they dont unlock them, they criple them
1404 2011-01-05 16:32:15 <ArtForz> teslas have less SPs than their desktop cousins
1405 2011-01-05 16:32:23 <ArtForz> no, they aren't
1406 2011-01-05 16:32:38 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well, 2.5U
1407 2011-01-05 16:32:54 <Diablo-D3> they have to have taken off the pci brackets for that to fit
1408 2011-01-05 16:32:57 <ArtForz> iirc 3U = 134mm, standard height card = 121mm
1409 2011-01-05 16:33:02 <Diablo-D3> and hope to god the card isnt too high
1410 2011-01-05 16:33:24 <ArtForz> just look at the pic of a sled+card
1411 2011-01-05 16:33:40 <ArtForz> thats a plain ole tesla
1412 2011-01-05 16:33:54 <Diablo-D3> did they take the pci bracket off?
1413 2011-01-05 16:34:00 <ArtForz> yep
1414 2011-01-05 16:34:04 <Diablo-D3> thats why it fits
1415 2011-01-05 16:34:13 <Diablo-D3> with it on, no way in fucking hell
1416 2011-01-05 16:34:23 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure it would fit with the bracket too
1417 2011-01-05 16:34:47 <ArtForz> *digs for CEM spec*
1418 2011-01-05 16:35:10 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: basically, teslas work like this
1419 2011-01-05 16:35:15 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you take a gtx 5xx
1420 2011-01-05 16:35:20 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you slow it down a little
1421 2011-01-05 16:35:27 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you disable some of the pipes
1422 2011-01-05 16:35:37 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you disable the DP math killer
1423 2011-01-05 16:35:48 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: and then you charge about 5x for it.
1424 2011-01-05 16:36:08 <EvanR-work> sounds lucrative
1425 2011-01-05 16:36:10 <devon_hillard> so the GPGPU card is weaker than the desktop card?
1426 2011-01-05 16:36:18 <Diablo-D3> yes
1427 2011-01-05 16:36:21 <devon_hillard> at GPGPU work?
1428 2011-01-05 16:36:31 <Diablo-D3> at anything but DP work, yes
1429 2011-01-05 16:36:58 <Diablo-D3> a crippled one does 1/8th, an uncrippled one does 1/2th
1430 2011-01-05 16:37:24 <sipa> what is DP?
1431 2011-01-05 16:37:26 <Diablo-D3> but due to the cost, I can just buy 4 times more 69xxs and get 1/4th AND still have 4 times more.
1432 2011-01-05 16:37:29 <Diablo-D3> double precision
1433 2011-01-05 16:37:32 <sipa> oh ok
1434 2011-01-05 16:37:41 <devon_hillard> so what application are supposedly better with the GPGPU card, if any?
1435 2011-01-05 16:37:48 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: none.
1436 2011-01-05 16:37:55 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: AMD basically fucks their shit
1437 2011-01-05 16:38:20 <Diablo-D3> 1 tesla vs 4 69xx, the 69xxes get 1x the DP performance and 4x the SP performance
1438 2011-01-05 16:38:39 <Diablo-D3> and thats only if I buy 69xxes slow enough to match that tesla
1439 2011-01-05 16:38:52 <ArtForz> bracket is 4.725", card sticks out max of 0.246"
1440 2011-01-05 16:38:54 <Diablo-D3> its closer to like 2x/8x
1441 2011-01-05 16:39:04 <devon_hillard> I don't understand enterprise hardware
1442 2011-01-05 16:39:10 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: this isnt enterprise hardware
1443 2011-01-05 16:39:13 <Diablo-D3> its STUPIDITY
1444 2011-01-05 16:39:21 <ArtForz> 3U is well > 5"
1445 2011-01-05 16:39:21 <Diablo-D3> its not like we're going out and buying Suns and IBMs here
1446 2011-01-05 16:39:27 <EvanR-work> isnt that the definition of enterprise ready
1447 2011-01-05 16:39:29 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: hrrrrrm.
1448 2011-01-05 16:39:44 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: no, enterprise gets you something for your money
1449 2011-01-05 16:39:49 <Diablo-D3> it may not be something you want, but its there
1450 2011-01-05 16:40:02 <Diablo-D3> not everybody wants to be able to, say, swap DIMMs live.
1451 2011-01-05 16:40:41 <ArtForz> only problem is on any decent card PCIe power connectors are on top
1452 2011-01-05 16:40:53 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so
1453 2011-01-05 16:40:59 <Diablo-D3> we're back to my solution
1454 2011-01-05 16:41:02 <Diablo-D3> buy fucking 4U cases
1455 2011-01-05 16:41:24 <ArtForz> meh, 50kW+ per rack sounds like more fun
1456 2011-01-05 16:41:50 <ArtForz> aka "how the fuck do you cool that"
1457 2011-01-05 16:42:55 <Diablo-D3> simply, you dont
1458 2011-01-05 16:43:00 <Diablo-D3> I mean, fuck
1459 2011-01-05 16:43:09 <Diablo-D3> I know of places that have racks full of thumpers
1460 2011-01-05 16:43:26 <Diablo-D3> thats 48 drives in 4U with a computer wedged in there
1461 2011-01-05 16:43:32 <ArtForz> yup
1462 2011-01-05 16:43:37 <Diablo-D3> drives randomly melting is just part of the game
1463 2011-01-05 16:44:02 <ArtForz> and I know places with dual 4P systems in 1U
1464 2011-01-05 16:44:08 <Diablo-D3> oh christ
1465 2011-01-05 16:44:11 <Diablo-D3> those supermicro shit?
1466 2011-01-05 16:44:18 <Diablo-D3> thats some pretty fucked up shit right there
1467 2011-01-05 16:44:26 <Diablo-D3> oh, and those fucking supermicro blade boxes
1468 2011-01-05 16:44:38 <Diablo-D3> they got AMD blades that do 4 G34 sockets
1469 2011-01-05 16:44:43 ThomasV has left ("Leaving")
1470 2011-01-05 16:44:48 <Diablo-D3> and I think 8 blades go in that shit
1471 2011-01-05 16:45:03 <Diablo-D3> so take the 12 core shit
1472 2011-01-05 16:45:12 <Diablo-D3> thats 384 cores in 7u
1473 2011-01-05 16:45:30 <Diablo-D3> and its powered by 4 full sized 2000 watt PSUs
1474 2011-01-05 16:46:01 <Diablo-D3> hot swappable, but only one can fail before your shit halts
1475 2011-01-05 16:46:15 <Diablo-D3> how the fuck do you cool _that_
1476 2011-01-05 16:46:23 <ArtForz> 16 5970s in 3U would still take the cake, >66kW for a full rack
1477 2011-01-05 16:46:37 <tonytraductor> okay, now that I have 0.05BTC, I'm wondering...should my bitcoin.conf have more than just a password? How is my acct associated with me? (other than that my wallet is on my computer, and nobody else can access it, theoretically (thank gawd I don't use windows))?
1478 2011-01-05 16:47:09 <Diablo-D3> tonytraductor: bitcoin's rpc only listens to localhost by default
1479 2011-01-05 16:47:16 <Diablo-D3> that password is only used by rpc shit
1480 2011-01-05 16:48:04 <sipa> tonytraductor: and your account is not associated with you, that's the nice thing
1481 2011-01-05 16:48:18 <sipa> if you backup your wallet.dat you can access your funds from anywhere
1482 2011-01-05 16:48:19 <tonytraductor> now, I'm expecting a new machine in the mail within a week...I can simply move my wallet, copy everything over, right?  I did briefly see something about making a backup, so I can backup, copy the backup to the new machine.
1483 2011-01-05 16:48:43 <sipa> i haven't tried it, but yes, that should work
1484 2011-01-05 16:48:46 <tonytraductor> that's weird...cool, but odd.  Still trying to get my head around the whole thing.
1485 2011-01-05 16:49:01 <EvanR-work> if you backup to the internet make sure you encrypt it with gpg
1486 2011-01-05 16:49:11 <sipa> or rot-13
1487 2011-01-05 16:49:15 <tonytraductor> unlike a bank acct in a bank, or a paypal acct on their servers, all my acct is in my wallet.dat. Yes?
1488 2011-01-05 16:49:24 <sipa> tonytraductor: yes
1489 2011-01-05 16:49:44 <sipa> tonytraductor: well, the balance is in the network
1490 2011-01-05 16:49:47 <tonytraductor> w0w...I hope this takes off
1491 2011-01-05 16:49:49 <EvanR-work> just xor every bit with 1
1492 2011-01-05 16:49:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: still
1493 2011-01-05 16:50:00 <sipa> EvanR-work: twice, for extra security
1494 2011-01-05 16:50:01 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you have a bigger problem
1495 2011-01-05 16:50:04 <EvanR-work> lol
1496 2011-01-05 16:50:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: most DCs wont let you drag that many circuits in
1497 2011-01-05 16:50:10 <sipa> tonytraductor: but to access it you need to the keys, stored in wallet.dat
1498 2011-01-05 16:50:16 <tonytraductor> ah, but the balance in the network is associated with the wallet.dat in my possession, but not with my name, my SS#, tax id, nada...
1499 2011-01-05 16:50:22 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so you're going to have a few half empty racks
1500 2011-01-05 16:50:26 <sipa> tonytraductor: correct
1501 2011-01-05 16:50:43 <tonytraductor> nice
1502 2011-01-05 16:50:52 <EvanR-work> tonytraductor: as long as you didnt put any of that in your comment fields...
1503 2011-01-05 16:50:52 <ArtForz> most DCs get iffy around 25-30kW/rack
1504 2011-01-05 16:51:13 <tonytraductor> aha
1505 2011-01-05 16:51:15 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: depends on the DC
1506 2011-01-05 16:51:52 <ArtForz> yeah, guys specialising in high density or HPC usually have no problem
1507 2011-01-05 16:51:55 <tonytraductor> and, say I did want to enter some comment. what syntax?  like C comments? or bash? (ie., with # or with /**, or what?)
1508 2011-01-05 16:52:12 <EvanR-work> its any text
1509 2011-01-05 16:52:16 <sipa> EvanR-work: the comment fields are private
1510 2011-01-05 16:52:19 <Pegasus-Rider> A cluster of AMD Fusion (say, C50s) would be an interesting thing to build, considering their TDP and estimated cost
1511 2011-01-05 16:52:24 <tonytraductor> okay
1512 2011-01-05 16:52:27 <EvanR-work> comment fields are in the wallet only?
1513 2011-01-05 16:52:32 <sipa> yes
1514 2011-01-05 16:52:35 <EvanR-work> oh
1515 2011-01-05 16:52:36 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: HPC automatically makes the racks cost twice as much
1516 2011-01-05 16:52:43 <ArtForz> yep
1517 2011-01-05 16:52:44 <sipa> it's just the name you give to accounts
1518 2011-01-05 16:52:57 <Diablo-D3> Pegasus-Rider: I very much want a 12" tablet with a Fusion in it
1519 2011-01-05 16:52:59 <TD> are there any plans to integrate the GPU mining with the official client ?
1520 2011-01-05 16:53:03 <ArtForz> no
1521 2011-01-05 16:53:09 hpj has joined
1522 2011-01-05 16:53:09 <Diablo-D3> TD: well, it "is" intergrated
1523 2011-01-05 16:53:09 <TD> how comes?
1524 2011-01-05 16:53:13 <EvanR-work> integrating sounds horrible
1525 2011-01-05 16:53:16 <TD> i mean, shipping with it out of the box
1526 2011-01-05 16:53:18 <Diablo-D3> TD: turn json rpc on, run the miner.
1527 2011-01-05 16:53:23 <Diablo-D3> no patches needed
1528 2011-01-05 16:53:42 <TD> i think one of the reasons bitcoin managed to get started from zero is that it's relatively easy to use and do something
1529 2011-01-05 16:53:52 <TD> download, run, use gui. no screwing around with command line parameters or extra dependencies.
1530 2011-01-05 16:53:55 <TD> it'd be a shame to lose htat.
1531 2011-01-05 16:53:56 <TD> that
1532 2011-01-05 16:54:12 <Diablo-D3> mining isnt for most people
1533 2011-01-05 16:54:15 <Diablo-D3> its for a select few.
1534 2011-01-05 16:54:27 <TD> that's not how bitcoin has worked for most of its history. why start now?
1535 2011-01-05 16:54:39 <Diablo-D3> most people dont want their boxes burning up
1536 2011-01-05 16:54:42 <ArtForz> because for most of its history bitcoin has been about 2 guys
1537 2011-01-05 16:54:44 <EvanR-work> mining is only for those in power
1538 2011-01-05 16:55:00 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: exactly
1539 2011-01-05 16:55:24 slush has joined
1540 2011-01-05 16:55:45 <TD> so reduce the load until it's comfortable, like the official client does with its low priority threads. my point is, the best way to increase the hash rate is still to grow the user population rather than have a tiny number of people make huge investments
1541 2011-01-05 16:55:51 <ArtForz> frying a GPU with mining really isnt too hard
1542 2011-01-05 16:56:05 <TD> bitcoin is still ridiculously easy to overpower if you have a very small botnet. that doesn't engender trust.
1543 2011-01-05 16:56:08 <EvanR-work> TD: dont know about that
1544 2011-01-05 16:56:14 <tonytraductor> I haven't the slightest idea how to add comments to the wallet....that's probably a good thing, anyway
1545 2011-01-05 16:56:15 <EvanR-work> on both counts
1546 2011-01-05 16:56:26 <EvanR-work> tonytraductor: its in the addresses gui
1547 2011-01-05 16:56:30 <EvanR-work> 'label'
1548 2011-01-05 16:56:51 <tonytraductor> oh, yeah, no I just labeled address with timestamps, basically.
1549 2011-01-05 16:56:53 <brocktice> TD: Bullshit, it's not ridiculously easy to overpower with a botnet
1550 2011-01-05 16:56:53 <ArtForz> define *small* botnet
1551 2011-01-05 16:57:11 <ArtForz> you'd need *well* > 100k zombies
1552 2011-01-05 16:57:15 <TD> ArtForz: didn't you calculate you'd need about 250 high end ATI cards to match the network?
1553 2011-01-05 16:57:16 <brocktice> TD: Unless it's a botnet of 5970s
1554 2011-01-05 16:57:20 <TD> yes
1555 2011-01-05 16:57:24 <brocktice> TD: That is growing constantly
1556 2011-01-05 16:57:36 <brocktice> ArtForz: What's it at now?
1557 2011-01-05 16:57:38 <TD> if users aren't mining, your botnet doesn't need to grow constantly
1558 2011-01-05 16:57:49 <TD> because the bitcoin user population grows but the mining population probably doesn't, if it becomes a specialized thing
1559 2011-01-05 16:57:59 <brocktice> The mining population will continue to grow
1560 2011-01-05 16:58:10 <ArtForz> errr... it's still growing
1561 2011-01-05 16:58:22 <EvanR-work> whats the pool at now
1562 2011-01-05 16:58:26 <brocktice> TD: It hasn't stopped growing
1563 2011-01-05 16:58:26 <EvanR-work> 10G?
1564 2011-01-05 16:58:29 <brocktice> ;;bc,stats
1565 2011-01-05 16:58:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101170 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1645 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 1 hour, 1 minute, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 16929.39064624
1566 2011-01-05 16:58:37 <brocktice> ooh look, difficulty is still going up
1567 2011-01-05 16:58:39 <brocktice> growing
1568 2011-01-05 16:58:43 <ArtForz> yep
1569 2011-01-05 16:58:47 <TD> yeah, but people were just saying "don't bother mining" to a new user
1570 2011-01-05 16:58:49 <TD> so for how long?
1571 2011-01-05 16:58:56 <brocktice> ... with a cpu
1572 2011-01-05 16:59:07 <brocktice> because I think that is often a net loss when you include power costs.
1573 2011-01-05 16:59:11 <ArtForz> well, because nowadays minign with a CPU usually isn't worth it
1574 2011-01-05 16:59:14 osmosis has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1575 2011-01-05 16:59:16 <EvanR-work> eventually governments and special interest groups will be the main miners ;)
1576 2011-01-05 16:59:17 <ArtForz> unless you have electrical heating anyways
1577 2011-01-05 16:59:20 <TD> btw botnet installs are cheap
1578 2011-01-05 16:59:21 <TD> http://installsmarket.net/index.php?lang=en
1579 2011-01-05 16:59:23 <tonytraductor> hmmm...but, if someone can crack your machine and steal your wallet, they have your BTC.  Is this correct? (not worried, since I use debian/stable. just a hypothetical question)
1580 2011-01-05 16:59:37 <EvanR-work> yes
1581 2011-01-05 16:59:45 * brocktice just ordered another 5970 to drop into the water cooled miner
1582 2011-01-05 16:59:48 <EvanR-work> the file shouldnt be world readable
1583 2011-01-05 17:00:02 <brocktice> ArtForz: I guess we'll find out if that 360 rad can handle three 5970s :)
1584 2011-01-05 17:00:10 <tonytraductor> oh, right...gave it 600 permissions, so only I can read.write it.  true.
1585 2011-01-05 17:00:27 <EvanR-work> the next line of defense is your ssh password, and the weaknesses of whatever server software youre running
1586 2011-01-05 17:00:29 <hpj> mining is only cost effective if you believe the value of BTC will go up significantly - and if you believe that, you might as well just buy a bunch
1587 2011-01-05 17:00:33 <EvanR-work> and the physical security of your computer
1588 2011-01-05 17:00:37 <hpj> unless you need your computer for heating, which you might
1589 2011-01-05 17:00:42 <TD> 1 botnet machine day is about 1cent
1590 2011-01-05 17:00:42 <tonytraductor> but, if they crack your machine, they can probably get by those permissions, no?
1591 2011-01-05 17:00:43 <hpj> in that case, it's a free by-product :)
1592 2011-01-05 17:01:00 <TD> so i suspect you wouldn't need to pay a whole lot to mass 250 ATI 5970s
1593 2011-01-05 17:01:02 <EvanR-work> tonytraductor: if they have root or just your password yes
1594 2011-01-05 17:01:09 <TD> especially given that a lot of these bot installs come in via pirated games
1595 2011-01-05 17:01:13 <EvanR-work> or walk up to it while youre in the bathroom
1596 2011-01-05 17:01:29 * brocktice needs his computer for heating
1597 2011-01-05 17:01:45 <brocktice> TD: Yeah but people would notice if their 5970 was maxed out.
1598 2011-01-05 17:01:54 <brocktice> "Why does my computer constantly sound like a hair dryer on 'High'"?
1599 2011-01-05 17:02:02 <ArtForz> yea, thats a pretty quick way to lose a lot of decent zombies
1600 2011-01-05 17:02:03 <brocktice> Especially the kind of people that buy 5970s
1601 2011-01-05 17:02:04 <TD> and when they fail to find out ?
1602 2011-01-05 17:02:16 <brocktice> Wipe and reinstall, probably
1603 2011-01-05 17:02:21 <TD> i mean if all people had to do was notice unusual system load to discover viruses, botnets wouldn't be an issue
1604 2011-01-05 17:02:21 <brocktice> zombie gone, for a while
1605 2011-01-05 17:02:31 <EvanR-work> TD: you get a big boost to the bitcoin economy ;)
1606 2011-01-05 17:02:33 <brocktice> TD: Have you ever run a 5970 at full tilt?
1607 2011-01-05 17:02:35 <TD> we can't solve botnets. but we can increase the costs of matching the network
1608 2011-01-05 17:02:40 <brocktice> I think not or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
1609 2011-01-05 17:02:52 <TD> so run it at 1/4 power and quadruple the number of nodes
1610 2011-01-05 17:02:57 <nanotube> brocktice: with 200k botnodes... you don't even need gpu mining.
1611 2011-01-05 17:03:01 <TD> these guys are happy to sell you 50,000 installs *per day*
1612 2011-01-05 17:03:02 <ArtForz> yep
1613 2011-01-05 17:03:12 <EvanR-work> TD: another problem is if you simply take over everyones computer
1614 2011-01-05 17:03:20 <EvanR-work> then you dont even need bitcoins
1615 2011-01-05 17:03:31 <brocktice> With 200k botnodes you'd probably be better off mining
1616 2011-01-05 17:03:42 <brocktice> which is part of the beauty of the system.
1617 2011-01-05 17:04:07 <brocktice> Why go to all that effort to double-spend once
1618 2011-01-05 17:04:11 <brocktice> when you can just mine instead?
1619 2011-01-05 17:04:20 <nanotube> brocktice: unless your goal is to disrupt the network
1620 2011-01-05 17:04:30 <TD> it's more about perception than anything else. people ask themselves, can I trust this network with my money?
1621 2011-01-05 17:04:35 <brocktice> nanotube: there are easier ways to disrupt the network
1622 2011-01-05 17:04:42 <TD> if the answer is that it costs very little to rewrite transaction history, it lowers peoples trust, even if you assume rational actors wouldn't ever do that
1623 2011-01-05 17:04:46 <TD> anyway, meeting time.
1624 2011-01-05 17:04:48 <brocktice> TD: A double-spend event is not a catstrophic failure of the network.
1625 2011-01-05 17:05:01 <brocktice> OK, have fun
1626 2011-01-05 17:05:05 <brocktice> and for me, espresso time
1627 2011-01-05 17:05:11 <nanotube> brocktice: well... someone who controls >50% can stop all transaction confirmations
1628 2011-01-05 17:05:20 <nanotube> brocktice: that's a 'catastrophic failure'
1629 2011-01-05 17:05:22 <EvanR-work> TD: theres limits to what you can do if you 'take over' the network partially
1630 2011-01-05 17:05:30 <tonytraductor> wow, people are actually trading this currency
1631 2011-01-05 17:05:44 <sipa> ;;bc,mtgox
1632 2011-01-05 17:05:44 <nanotube> tonytraductor: yep. .3usd/btc currently
1633 2011-01-05 17:05:45 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.299,"low":0.289,"vol":213,"buy":0.2903,"sell":0.2989,"last":0.299}}
1634 2011-01-05 17:05:47 <EvanR-work> TD: changing history is not possible
1635 2011-01-05 17:06:11 <ArtForz> well, it kinda is
1636 2011-01-05 17:06:23 <Diablo-D3> TIME MACHHENEZES
1637 2011-01-05 17:06:25 <nanotube> EvanR-work: well... it is... say, 1000 ghps can probably start from genesis block (or really, from the latest hardcoded block)
1638 2011-01-05 17:06:27 <EvanR-work> you could fork the chain
1639 2011-01-05 17:06:28 <genjix> gavinandresen: can we add some string to all non-json output in bitcoind?
1640 2011-01-05 17:06:30 <ArtForz> you just need an awful lot of hashrate for it
1641 2011-01-05 17:06:30 <genjix> i.e
1642 2011-01-05 17:06:32 <nanotube> EvanR-work: and overtake the main chain in relatively short order
1643 2011-01-05 17:06:36 <genjix> ERROR: blaaa
1644 2011-01-05 17:06:58 <genjix> gavinandresen: makes it much easier for a gui wrapper
1645 2011-01-05 17:07:17 <EvanR-work> nanotube: meaning with 10x the current network, you could generate 100000 blocks before anyone else generates 1?
1646 2011-01-05 17:07:19 <gavinandresen> genjix:  ummm, why not just call the JSON directly using curl or wget or something?
1647 2011-01-05 17:07:50 <genjix> oh ok
1648 2011-01-05 17:07:59 <gavinandresen> (or javascript like tcatm is doing)
1649 2011-01-05 17:08:09 <genjix> javascript?
1650 2011-01-05 17:08:12 <nanotube> EvanR-work: no, but you could generate 105k blocks before the rest of the network generates 4k
1651 2011-01-05 17:08:17 <nanotube> EvanR-work: and thus your chain becomes longer.
1652 2011-01-05 17:08:21 <nanotube> ;;bc,blocks
1653 2011-01-05 17:08:21 <gribble> 101170
1654 2011-01-05 17:08:24 <genjix> i mean that bitcoind sometimes outputs non-json stuff
1655 2011-01-05 17:08:27 <nanotube> well... call it 3 k :)
1656 2011-01-05 17:08:33 <genjix> Bitcoin: Cannot obtain a lock on data directory /home/genjix/.bitcoin.  Bitcoin is probably already running.
1657 2011-01-05 17:08:37 <genjix> ^ gavinandresen
1658 2011-01-05 17:08:43 <gavinandresen> genjix:  tcatm is working on a pure-javascript GUI that talks to bitcoind using the JSON-RPC...
1659 2011-01-05 17:09:10 <genjix> ahh im supposed to use rpc instead of the bitcoind output
1660 2011-01-05 17:09:54 <gavinandresen> genjix:  yup.  Run   bitcoind help   and internally it just creates a JSON HTTP request and sends it to localhost:rpcport.
1661 2011-01-05 17:09:57 <tonytraductor> can I request an invite to the btc market here?
1662 2011-01-05 17:10:18 <nanotube> tonytraductor: which market are you talking about?
1663 2011-01-05 17:10:23 <EvanR-work> #bitcoin-otc
1664 2011-01-05 17:10:26 <EvanR-work> youre invited!
1665 2011-01-05 17:10:38 <tonytraductor> http://184.106.171.80
1666 2011-01-05 17:10:50 <tonytraductor> it says I have to request an invite to join the market and trade btc
1667 2011-01-05 17:10:50 <EvanR-work> that looks ominous
1668 2011-01-05 17:11:06 <tonytraductor> that was linked to from bitcoin.org
1669 2011-01-05 17:11:21 <nanotube> tonytraductor: ah, that marketplace is still in beta testing.
1670 2011-01-05 17:11:30 <nanotube> tonytraductor: you probably want mtgox.com instead
1671 2011-01-05 17:11:41 <nanotube> or... join #bitcoin-otc and see if you can scare up some otc trades.
1672 2011-01-05 17:11:54 <tonytraductor> oh, sorry, linked from https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/
1673 2011-01-05 17:13:20 <nanotube> yea, beta. :)
1674 2011-01-05 17:14:35 <davux> any idea why $btcregex in http://grondilu.freeshell.org/eurobitcoin.cgi?show_source=yes says {34} instead of {33}?
1675 2011-01-05 17:14:49 <davux> (line 3)
1676 2011-01-05 17:15:09 <brocktice> oh, why dwdollar
1677 2011-01-05 17:15:31 <tonytraductor> ok, signing up on mtgox, and clearcoin
1678 2011-01-05 17:15:55 <EvanR-work> heh, if only mtgox were that simple ;)
1679 2011-01-05 17:16:15 <nanotube> tonytraductor: fyi clearcoin is not a market, it's an escrow.
1680 2011-01-05 17:18:01 <tonytraductor> now someone needs to write a droid app (Idon't write java, or I'd look into it myself)
1681 2011-01-05 17:18:19 <Pegasus-Rider> ... And sell it for BTC :-)
1682 2011-01-05 17:18:21 <EvanR-work> isnt there a bounty on that
1683 2011-01-05 17:20:14 <x6763> tonytraductor: TD is working on an android client
1684 2011-01-05 17:20:19 osmosis has joined
1685 2011-01-05 17:20:30 osmosis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1686 2011-01-05 17:26:36 <cosurgi> slush: that hashing speed in profile page was very nice. But maybe some people complained that it's sometimes wrong, a pity.
1687 2011-01-05 17:26:57 <EvanR-work> i liked it
1688 2011-01-05 17:27:07 <cosurgi> slush: well, if they don't want to see it, then make a checkbox "display hashing speed". And they will disable this :)
1689 2011-01-05 17:27:31 <EvanR-work> it hurt peoples feelings and they demand its removal for everyone?
1690 2011-01-05 17:27:34 ebel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1691 2011-01-05 17:27:41 <cosurgi> looks like so
1692 2011-01-05 17:27:46 <EvanR-work> :(
1693 2011-01-05 17:31:34 Dark_Ghost has joined
1694 2011-01-05 17:31:58 marioxcc has joined
1695 2011-01-05 17:33:10 <hpj> is anyone working on local wallet encryption?
1696 2011-01-05 17:33:47 <marioxcc> I would like to
1697 2011-01-05 17:34:26 <cosurgi> well.. I just use my local encrypted partition, and keep in unmounted almst all the time. So I use my already existing solution.
1698 2011-01-05 17:34:43 <hpj> sounds like it'd make a lot of sense
1699 2011-01-05 17:35:04 <marioxcc> cosurgi: i don't think it is a solution becuase when mounted other programs can access it
1700 2011-01-05 17:35:13 <hpj> cosurgi: that's definitely not for everyone - and, can you keep it unmounted while the app is running?
1701 2011-01-05 17:35:25 <cosurgi> definitely not :)
1702 2011-01-05 17:35:28 <hpj> better to keep the only unencrypted copy in unswappable RAM
1703 2011-01-05 17:36:26 <ArtForz> depends on your attack scenario
1704 2011-01-05 17:36:43 <marioxcc> anyway, it is an improvement
1705 2011-01-05 17:36:53 <ArtForz> over what?
1706 2011-01-05 17:37:01 <ArtForz> encrypted wallet protects against stolen laptop, but then so does disk encryption
1707 2011-01-05 17:37:04 <marioxcc> over non-encrypted wallet
1708 2011-01-05 17:37:10 <hpj> well, i assume you can attack both the running process and external storage right now
1709 2011-01-05 17:37:18 <hpj> so eliminating the latter would be good anyway
1710 2011-01-05 17:37:43 <marioxcc> ArtForz: not everyone uses nor needs to encrypt the whole HD
1711 2011-01-05 17:37:52 <marioxcc> i don't for instance, but my GPG and SSH keys are encrypted
1712 2011-01-05 17:38:05 <marioxcc> there is no need to encrypt anything else and would be a waste of resources
1713 2011-01-05 17:38:33 <ArtForz> again, depends on attack scenario
1714 2011-01-05 17:39:03 <hpj> i think we all agree that there are multiple attack scenarios :)
1715 2011-01-05 17:39:09 <ArtForz> yep
1716 2011-01-05 17:39:11 <marioxcc> ArtForz: everything depends on attack scenarios
1717 2011-01-05 17:39:29 <marioxcc> in the worst scenario you're just forced to give all the keys
1718 2011-01-05 17:39:32 <ArtForz> and I cant see one where having a simple encrypted wallet really helps much
1719 2011-01-05 17:39:49 <marioxcc> in the best scenario the atacker have to do a ciphertext-only attack
1720 2011-01-05 17:40:22 <ArtForz> if our scenario is someone stealing a powered-down computer or imaging it, yes
1721 2011-01-05 17:40:39 RichardG has joined
1722 2011-01-05 17:40:49 <hpj> ArtForz: remote attacker
1723 2011-01-05 17:40:52 <ArtForz> otherwise he can just dump the running process
1724 2011-01-05 17:41:03 <hpj> ArtForz: unencrypted local partition
1725 2011-01-05 17:41:10 <hpj> ArtForz: unencrypted backup store
1726 2011-01-05 17:41:13 MT`AwAy is now known as MagicalTux
1727 2011-01-05 17:41:21 MagicalTux is now known as MT`AwAy
1728 2011-01-05 17:41:21 <hpj> ArtForz: or simple carelessness when transferring home dir
1729 2011-01-05 17:41:30 <hpj> ArtForz: e.g. insecure wipe
1730 2011-01-05 17:41:34 <ArtForz> yep, for those it would help
1731 2011-01-05 17:42:11 <hpj> it also helps for unsophisticated remote attackers, of which there are many
1732 2011-01-05 17:42:16 <ArtForz> though encrypting the whole wallet sounds like a waste, too
1733 2011-01-05 17:42:43 <ArtForz> the only secret info in there is the private keys
1734 2011-01-05 17:43:03 <hpj> it's pretty common to protect private keys with a passphrase or such
1735 2011-01-05 17:43:07 <ArtForz> everything else is just duplicates of public info
1736 2011-01-05 17:43:40 <ArtForz> well, okay... unless you wamnt to protect against someone finding out which pubkeys are yours from a lost/stolen/whatever wallet.dat ...
1737 2011-01-05 17:44:14 <Dark_Ghost> hello all, been a while since i was last here.
1738 2011-01-05 17:44:24 <ArtForz> guess it's better to encrypt the whole thing
1739 2011-01-05 17:44:41 <marioxcc> hpj: have you made any progress?
1740 2011-01-05 17:44:53 <hpj> i'd be happy with just encrypted priv keys
1741 2011-01-05 17:45:02 <hpj> marioxcc: no, just thinking out loud :)
1742 2011-01-05 17:45:14 <marioxcc> ok
1743 2011-01-05 17:46:24 <ArtForz> hrrrm
1744 2011-01-05 17:47:01 <ArtForz> shouldnt need too many modifcations
1745 2011-01-05 17:47:01 <hpj> which set of libraries is bitcoin using for the PK crypto?
1746 2011-01-05 17:47:06 <ArtForz> openssl
1747 2011-01-05 17:47:10 <hpj> ok
1748 2011-01-05 17:47:14 <hpj> then it shouldn't be too hard, i guess
1749 2011-01-05 17:47:45 <hpj> you could support modules that enable passphrase, biometric, or whatever
1750 2011-01-05 17:47:56 <marioxcc> ¿biometric?
1751 2011-01-05 17:48:12 <EvanR-work> usb fingerprint scanner
1752 2011-01-05 17:48:23 <ArtForz> well, it's better than bioimperial ;)
1753 2011-01-05 17:48:34 <hpj> marioxcc: in theory, libraries like openssl and NSS support plug-in crypto modules
1754 2011-01-05 17:48:42 <EvanR-work> now the attacker has incentive to cut your hand off
1755 2011-01-05 17:48:50 <marioxcc> EvanR-work: exactly
1756 2011-01-05 17:48:58 <hpj> marioxcc: so e.g. a workplace or nation can issue chips to employees or citizens that identify them to cryptosystems
1757 2011-01-05 17:48:59 <marioxcc> encryption is the strongest part alredy
1758 2011-01-05 17:49:19 <EvanR-work> and remembering the password is the weakest ;)
1759 2011-01-05 17:49:41 <hpj> right - not saying what kind of auth is a good idea, just that it pays to integrate with existing technologies
1760 2011-01-05 17:49:44 <marioxcc> well, i would prefer to have to give a password than a finger ;)
1761 2011-01-05 17:55:39 <Dark_Ghost> man, all these people here and i don't see anyone i know
1762 2011-01-05 17:55:47 <Dark_Ghost> or knew
1763 2011-01-05 17:56:20 <kiba> like who?
1764 2011-01-05 17:56:43 <Dark_Ghost> lemme grab chatlogs.. it's been 6months or more.
1765 2011-01-05 18:00:42 <nanotube> howdy Dark_Ghost hehe
1766 2011-01-05 18:01:22 <Dark_Ghost> nanotube: AH! there we go
1767 2011-01-05 18:01:45 <Dark_Ghost> that saves me some time from trying to grab chatlogs.. i'd have to find them
1768 2011-01-05 18:01:55 <Dark_Ghost> how are things?
1769 2011-01-05 18:02:35 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:QBitcoin#Initial_welcome.2Flogin_screen
1770 2011-01-05 18:03:08 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
1771 2011-01-05 18:03:09 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.299,"low":0.289,"vol":213,"buy":0.2903,"sell":0.2989,"last":0.299}}
1772 2011-01-05 18:03:16 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: --^ bitcoin is up to .3 usd/btc
1773 2011-01-05 18:03:17 <luke-jr> :o
1774 2011-01-05 18:03:22 <luke-jr> nanotube: that's < .3 now
1775 2011-01-05 18:03:28 <luke-jr> BTC is going down ☹
1776 2011-01-05 18:03:40 <marioxcc> yeah
1777 2011-01-05 18:03:41 <slush> cosurgi: The hash meter was very inaccurate for the most of users
1778 2011-01-05 18:03:42 <marioxcc> what a shame
1779 2011-01-05 18:03:50 <Dark_Ghost> whats the avrage # of bitcoins now? i still have my 205, but i bet thats kinda small now
1780 2011-01-05 18:03:55 <nanotube> luke-jr: it's been between .29 and .3 for a few days now... no big deal.
1781 2011-01-05 18:03:59 tonytraductor has quit (Quit: leaving)
1782 2011-01-05 18:04:06 <marioxcc> Dark_Ghost: of total bitcoins?
1783 2011-01-05 18:04:09 <slush> cosurgi: And I had many questions like "Why it displays I have only 2mhash when my miner shows 12?"
1784 2011-01-05 18:04:10 <luke-jr> Dark_Ghost: avg # *should* be going down
1785 2011-01-05 18:04:16 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: nobody knows what the 'average' is... only total :) ,,bc,totalbc
1786 2011-01-05 18:04:17 <gribble> 5058900.00000000
1787 2011-01-05 18:04:23 <Dark_Ghost> ok, cool.
1788 2011-01-05 18:04:25 genjix has quit (Quit: leaving)
1789 2011-01-05 18:04:35 <marioxcc> it is almost 1/4 of the total ever
1790 2011-01-05 18:04:43 <luke-jr> if BTC are to ever be adopted, there isn't enough of them for even 1 per person
1791 2011-01-05 18:04:45 <Dark_Ghost> wow
1792 2011-01-05 18:04:58 <nanotube> luke-jr: yes, that's why they're highly divisible
1793 2011-01-05 18:05:00 <marioxcc> luke-jr: that's why they're divisible
1794 2011-01-05 18:05:04 <marioxcc> oops
1795 2011-01-05 18:05:06 <luke-jr> nanotube: not highly. barely.
1796 2011-01-05 18:05:07 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: so your 205 btc is about 60 bucks now. :)
1797 2011-01-05 18:05:19 <luke-jr> I have 1.49 BTC <.<
1798 2011-01-05 18:05:23 <nanotube> luke-jr: .00000001 units are not enough for you?
1799 2011-01-05 18:05:27 <marioxcc> luke-jr: 10^8 divisions per coin is barely?
1800 2011-01-05 18:05:35 <Dark_Ghost> heh, neat! how long is normal generation of new bitcoins?
1801 2011-01-05 18:05:41 <luke-jr> marioxcc: when yuo consider everything, yes
1802 2011-01-05 18:05:53 <marioxcc> luke-jr: what's everything?
1803 2011-01-05 18:05:53 <luke-jr> 0.0001 BTC per person alive
1804 2011-01-05 18:05:55 <Dark_Ghost> when i left it was like a block every 3 days for me on a 64bit amd 3200
1805 2011-01-05 18:06:16 <luke-jr> Dark_Ghost: probably will get one every couple years with that
1806 2011-01-05 18:06:23 <Dark_Ghost> lol
1807 2011-01-05 18:06:32 <Dark_Ghost> well hopefully the GPU client would help
1808 2011-01-05 18:06:42 <luke-jr> so when 0.0001 is a person's life savings, 0.00000001 isn't much
1809 2011-01-05 18:06:49 <luke-jr> err, isn't little
1810 2011-01-05 18:06:57 <luke-jr> Dark_Ghost: if you want to sell your soul for BTC
1811 2011-01-05 18:07:18 <Dark_Ghost> did they not make the gpu client opensource?
1812 2011-01-05 18:07:33 <luke-jr> Dark_Ghost: the client itself is, but it doesn't work wtih any open source OS
1813 2011-01-05 18:07:44 <Dark_Ghost> lol
1814 2011-01-05 18:07:48 <Dark_Ghost> win only?
1815 2011-01-05 18:07:55 <luke-jr> Win or proprietary Linux
1816 2011-01-05 18:07:57 <ArtForz> no, needs binary drivers
1817 2011-01-05 18:08:18 <x6763> luke-jr: 0.00010000 BTC is 10000 of the smallest bitcoin pieces per person, and the number of decimal places could be expanded in the future if/when needed, making it 100,000,000,000 pieces or however many people think it should be...this is a non-issue
1818 2011-01-05 18:08:44 <ArtForz> which is apparently a real deal-breaker for FOSS tro... errr... advocates
1819 2011-01-05 18:09:13 <hpj> x6763: could that be done without protocol/storage format changes?
1820 2011-01-05 18:09:27 <ArtForz> nope
1821 2011-01-05 18:09:27 <slush> tro :-D
1822 2011-01-05 18:10:10 <nanotube> ArtForz: speaking of which... maybe divisibility should be increased now, before it's too late? what are your thoughts on that?
1823 2011-01-05 18:10:10 <ArtForz> too bad satoshi didnt make use of those ~12 left over bits in the int64
1824 2011-01-05 18:10:14 <x6763> hpj: i don't know...regardless, it can be changed and transitioned
1825 2011-01-05 18:10:36 <Dark_Ghost> nanotube: how long you plan to be in with BTC's?
1826 2011-01-05 18:10:54 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1827 2011-01-05 18:11:11 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: what do you mean? hopefully, until i die, or btc dies. :)
1828 2011-01-05 18:11:15 <Pegasus-Rider> Eh, what? GPU mining would require some proprietary cruft?!
1829 2011-01-05 18:11:24 <luke-jr> Pegasus-Rider: exactly
1830 2011-01-05 18:11:34 <nanotube> Pegasus-Rider: it only works with the closed-source drivers. foss drivers don't support opencl (yet)
1831 2011-01-05 18:11:37 <jgarzik> Pegasus-Rider: I'll pledge 100 BTC towards an open source OpenCL effort :)
1832 2011-01-05 18:11:49 <nanotube> jgarzik: heh
1833 2011-01-05 18:11:50 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: you mean to Mesa?
1834 2011-01-05 18:11:53 <ArtForz> we really wouldnt need opencl
1835 2011-01-05 18:11:56 <Diablo-D3> since they already have an opencl impl
1836 2011-01-05 18:12:22 <ArtForz> a pixel shader is uglier to implement, but works as well
1837 2011-01-05 18:12:31 <luke-jr> anyhow, I'm advocating TBC instead of BTC :P
1838 2011-01-05 18:12:40 <ArtForz> tubercolosis?
1839 2011-01-05 18:12:41 <Diablo-D3> you mean uBTC
1840 2011-01-05 18:12:45 <luke-jr> no, I mean TBC :P
1841 2011-01-05 18:12:52 <jgarzik> should be easy enough to ship asm.  I talked to lead Xorg kernel devs about OpenCL, and the basic kernel interface design for shipping remote-execution code already exists.
1842 2011-01-05 18:12:52 <Diablo-D3> wtf is TBC?
1843 2011-01-05 18:13:04 <luke-jr> 0x1,0000 uBTC/BTCᵇ
1844 2011-01-05 18:13:07 <luke-jr> err
1845 2011-01-05 18:13:08 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: wtf?
1846 2011-01-05 18:13:09 <luke-jr> 0x1,0000 uBTC/TBCᵇ
1847 2011-01-05 18:13:23 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: _mesa already has an opencl impl_
1848 2011-01-05 18:13:29 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: _it uses gallium_
1849 2011-01-05 18:13:37 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it works?
1850 2011-01-05 18:13:40 <Dark_Ghost> nanotube:  rock on. i am decding on what i want to do. i am not sure i can dedicate the cycles to the client anymore, so i am trying to figure out if i should give mine to you, or if i should try to find the wallet.dat file and keep them in hopes that i will remember to pick this up again in the future. *IF* i remember it.
1851 2011-01-05 18:13:47 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: for varying definitions of works
1852 2011-01-05 18:13:55 <luke-jr> Dark_Ghost: I'll take em! :P
1853 2011-01-05 18:14:11 <Dark_Ghost> heh
1854 2011-01-05 18:14:14 <luke-jr> Dark_Ghost: also note, you could just trade them in for USD too
1855 2011-01-05 18:14:22 <Diablo-D3> Dark_Ghost: just sell them
1856 2011-01-05 18:14:45 <Dark_Ghost> for me the purpose was to help the currency. so the decision is more how can i help BitCoin the most
1857 2011-01-05 18:15:11 <Diablo-D3> you can sell them, that'd help the most.
1858 2011-01-05 18:15:14 <jgarzik> Dark_Ghost: start a biz !
1859 2011-01-05 18:16:02 <Dark_Ghost> doing what?
1860 2011-01-05 18:16:12 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: heh if you really don't want them, your best course of action (other than giving them to me :) ), is to sell them at current market rates.
1861 2011-01-05 18:16:12 <Dark_Ghost> sitting on btc's?
1862 2011-01-05 18:16:21 <hpj> btw, won't BTC suffer deflation due to people slowly losing their coins to equipment failure?
1863 2011-01-05 18:16:39 <ArtForz> afaict it should be possible to build a OGL GPU miner
1864 2011-01-05 18:16:41 <nanotube> hpj: yes... so?
1865 2011-01-05 18:16:45 <Diablo-D3> hpj: there is NO reason why equipment failure should lead to data loss _ever_
1866 2011-01-05 18:16:50 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: its pointless
1867 2011-01-05 18:16:56 <hpj> Diablo-D3: carelessness is a good reason
1868 2011-01-05 18:17:03 <Diablo-D3> hpj: then they should be shot.
1869 2011-01-05 18:17:07 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: your statement assumes competence on the part of the user.
1870 2011-01-05 18:17:19 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: no, I assume they are afraid of me killing them in their sleep
1871 2011-01-05 18:17:26 <hpj> nanotube: just wondering.
1872 2011-01-05 18:17:33 <x6763> hpj: prices will adjust...not a problem
1873 2011-01-05 18:17:50 <ArtForz> well, I didnt say it was useful
1874 2011-01-05 18:18:16 <nanotube> hpj: there's a forum thread about that too. :)
1875 2011-01-05 18:18:17 <Dark_Ghost> nanotube:  what about generation, all i really have open is a laptop to run the client on, i've not kept up with where the generation rates are now, but would that even be enough to generate coins on a personal level?
1876 2011-01-05 18:18:26 <hpj> nanotube: :)
1877 2011-01-05 18:18:34 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: well, there's the mining ,,pool
1878 2011-01-05 18:18:34 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
1879 2011-01-05 18:18:55 <nanotube> that'll maybe give you a coin every week or two or three (depending on your hashrate)
1880 2011-01-05 18:19:19 <Dark_Ghost> reading now
1881 2011-01-05 18:20:13 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: but as far as 'helping bitcoin the most'... best thin gyou can do is offer goods or services in exchange for bitcoin, to expand the meatspace bitcoin economy. as jgarzik suggested. :)
1882 2011-01-05 18:20:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1883 2011-01-05 18:23:43 osmosis has joined
1884 2011-01-05 18:27:26 <slush> All users of m0mchil miners on pool, please update to latest miner version (see m0mchil last post in forum)
1885 2011-01-05 18:27:46 <Diablo-D3> what did he break this time?
1886 2011-01-05 18:28:38 <Dark_Ghost> how long should it take to transfer an ammount from one comp to another? i just sent my 205 from me to me, so i'm just wondering
1887 2011-01-05 18:28:43 <nanotube> heh, best market manipulation ever (for later on): 1) publicly announce "zomg, i just irretrievably lost my wallet with 1m btc in it, can someone help me recover? bla bla..." 2) prices go up... quietly sell off some bitcoin at higher prices. 3) publicly announce "oh nvm, i recovered them with the help of a friend with an electron microscope" 4) prices go down, buy back some bitcoin. :)
1888 2011-01-05 18:28:54 <slush> he did not 'break' anything, we just find that miner sometimes crunched same job twice in some extreme cases
1889 2011-01-05 18:29:00 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: should show up instantly, if your receiving comp has the entire block chain.
1890 2011-01-05 18:29:24 <nanotube> otherwise.. just wait until it catches up.
1891 2011-01-05 18:29:25 <slush> I don't know technical details much
1892 2011-01-05 18:29:30 <Dark_Ghost> i just d/l'd it and started it like 5 mins ago, so it might be a while
1893 2011-01-05 18:29:40 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: ah yes. indeed. ,,bc,blocks
1894 2011-01-05 18:29:40 <gribble> 101180
1895 2011-01-05 18:29:46 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: you need to dl 101k blocks or so.
1896 2011-01-05 18:29:57 <Dark_Ghost> he never fixed that?
1897 2011-01-05 18:30:04 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: who he?
1898 2011-01-05 18:30:48 <Dark_Ghost> the guy who started this. wasn't this an issue we were talking about a while back? the large download needed to get into BC?
1899 2011-01-05 18:31:15 <nanotube> ah heh.. no, still no light-weight client out there.
1900 2011-01-05 18:31:25 <nanotube> it's not really that large, only 60mb or so.
1901 2011-01-05 18:31:30 <kiba> lack of bitcoin manpower?
1902 2011-01-05 18:31:49 <Dark_Ghost> i started so it'll only be a little while
1903 2011-01-05 18:32:04 <Dark_Ghost> though i might need to open a port or something
1904 2011-01-05 18:32:57 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: you can copy the blk0001.dat file over, to save the time. stop your target client, delete blk001.dat and blkindex.dat.. copy over blk0001.dat, and fire up client. (of course, make wallet backup just in case beforehand)
1905 2011-01-05 18:33:13 <nanotube> Dark_Ghost: if it shows connections, then opening a port won't help really as far as block dl.
1906 2011-01-05 18:33:29 <nanotube> as long as it is able to make outgoing connections
1907 2011-01-05 18:35:08 altamic has joined
1908 2011-01-05 18:35:10 planetPlosion has joined
1909 2011-01-05 18:35:17 <nanotube> or you could just wait it out. :)
1910 2011-01-05 18:35:22 <hpj> would it be possible at some point for new clients to join without having the entire block chain?
1911 2011-01-05 18:35:30 <hpj> i mean technically feasible
1912 2011-01-05 18:35:39 <planetPlosion> which bitcoin miners are available?
1913 2011-01-05 18:36:22 <nanotube> planetPlosion: there's a nice list on the ,,pool page
1914 2011-01-05 18:36:23 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
1915 2011-01-05 18:37:30 <donpdonp> where you too can make 0.002BTC a month for $1.75 in electricity :)
1916 2011-01-05 18:38:01 <nanotube> donpdonp: heh well, probably more like 1btc a month...
1917 2011-01-05 18:38:28 <planetPlosion> Has anyone written essays on the feasibility of bitcoin compared to energy usage?
1918 2011-01-05 18:39:01 <planetPlosion> seems largely not worth it
1919 2011-01-05 18:39:27 <nanotube> planetPlosion: depends on your hardware. gpu mining using ati 5xxx gpus is quite profitable.
1920 2011-01-05 18:39:42 <luke-jr> donpdonp: I don't pay per watt on my dedi :D
1921 2011-01-05 18:40:31 <planetPlosion> i'm not talking about how much you pay for electricity... I'm talking about the global detriment that using electricity to generate money would mean
1922 2011-01-05 18:41:07 <luke-jr> yawn
1923 2011-01-05 18:41:24 <planetPlosion> ,,!,
1924 2011-01-05 18:41:26 <kiba> planetPlosion: just go nuclear
1925 2011-01-05 18:41:32 <luke-jr> they're charging me for the power, whether I use it or not
1926 2011-01-05 18:41:34 <kiba> energy problem, solved
1927 2011-01-05 18:41:35 <luke-jr> might as well use it
1928 2011-01-05 18:41:43 <ArtForz> we already discussed this at length
1929 2011-01-05 18:41:51 <luke-jr> yeah, no shortage of energy here. if there is ever, build more nuclear plants
1930 2011-01-05 18:42:13 <planetPlosion> well.. that's just fucking stupid
1931 2011-01-05 18:42:22 <kiba> why?
1932 2011-01-05 18:42:27 <ArtForz> assuming rational actors, generation + fees < power cost
1933 2011-01-05 18:42:28 <luke-jr> planetPlosion: you know something better?
1934 2011-01-05 18:42:40 <kiba> the sun gave us more energy in one hour than we can consume in one year
1935 2011-01-05 18:42:42 <hpj> luke-jr: coal
1936 2011-01-05 18:42:45 <Pegasus-Rider> I guess there's more poison for our planet ;) within traditional money production process
1937 2011-01-05 18:42:52 <kiba> not to mention that we're USING ENERGY MORE EFFICENT!
1938 2011-01-05 18:42:59 <luke-jr> hpj: no, coal is dirty and risky
1939 2011-01-05 18:43:13 <hpj> luke-jr: coal plants are cheaper and safer
1940 2011-01-05 18:43:18 <kiba> however we use that to build bigger SUVs
1941 2011-01-05 18:43:18 <hpj> :)
1942 2011-01-05 18:43:26 <planetPlosion> Art, was the "at length" discussion recorded or just in chat here?
1943 2011-01-05 18:43:32 <ArtForz> yes
1944 2011-01-05 18:43:49 <ArtForz> we have public chat logs... somewhere
1945 2011-01-05 18:43:57 <luke-jr> hpj: not compared to nuclear
1946 2011-01-05 18:44:13 <kiba> what is this posion that Pegasus-Rider speak of?
1947 2011-01-05 18:44:17 <kiba> hurt the planet? WTF?
1948 2011-01-05 18:44:29 <kiba> earth have no feeling
1949 2011-01-05 18:44:55 <ArtForz> and compared to the damages caused by central banks, a few GW look positively benign :P
1950 2011-01-05 18:45:17 <planetPlosion> who wants my bitcoins? This endeavor will fail
1951 2011-01-05 18:45:19 <kiba> those idiots want to stop climate change
1952 2011-01-05 18:45:23 <kiba> WHEN YOU CAN just adapt to it!
1953 2011-01-05 18:45:30 <hpj> luke-jr: i'm just playing devil's advocate here
1954 2011-01-05 18:45:31 <kiba> human beings are pretty good at adaptation
1955 2011-01-05 18:45:50 <luke-jr> hpj: ok, but nuclear is far cleaner and safer than coal
1956 2011-01-05 18:45:56 <luke-jr> planetPlosion: I do!
1957 2011-01-05 18:46:05 <kiba> beside
1958 2011-01-05 18:46:19 <kiba> those who use energy more efficent will make more bitcoin than those who don't
1959 2011-01-05 18:46:21 <kiba> err
1960 2011-01-05 18:46:22 <kiba> more money
1961 2011-01-05 18:46:25 <ArtForz> yep
1962 2011-01-05 18:46:26 <hpj> luke-jr: i agree; i doubt they are significantly cheaper, though
1963 2011-01-05 18:46:31 <luke-jr> 1KczVqwopWXQdFLe5sNQbpCq7yGSmXx2oo
1964 2011-01-05 18:46:40 <kiba> so
1965 2011-01-05 18:46:42 <kiba> bitcoin generation
1966 2011-01-05 18:46:45 <luke-jr> hpj: not sure on costs
1967 2011-01-05 18:46:49 <kiba> may actually DRIVE energy efficency
1968 2011-01-05 18:46:51 <ArtForz> generation tends toward getting more efficient, but that will even out again
1969 2011-01-05 18:47:07 <hpj> luke-jr: building them to be safe, and then decommissioning must be factored in; also security, fuel and fuel transport
1970 2011-01-05 18:47:13 <nanotube> also... as far as energy use - sure beats the energy required to maintain the fiat monetary system. bank vaults, printing presses, armored cars, etc.
1971 2011-01-05 18:47:17 <nanotube> planetPlosion: --^
1972 2011-01-05 18:47:27 <nanotube> but if you don't want your coins... i'll take them. send them to ,,botsnack
1973 2011-01-05 18:47:28 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
1974 2011-01-05 18:47:30 <nanotube> heh
1975 2011-01-05 18:47:34 tonytraductor has joined
1976 2011-01-05 18:47:37 <planetPlosion> already sent them
1977 2011-01-05 18:47:43 <kiba> you don't need a security guard
1978 2011-01-05 18:47:45 <planetPlosion> but I like the discussion
1979 2011-01-05 18:47:45 <nanotube> hehe ok
1980 2011-01-05 18:47:51 <kiba> the security guard can do something else more productive
1981 2011-01-05 18:48:02 <hpj> nanotube: stock autotraders...
1982 2011-01-05 18:48:11 <kiba> all which help us GET RICHER!
1983 2011-01-05 18:48:37 <planetPlosion> i agree that the fiat money and central banks are terrible, that's why I was here in the first place
1984 2011-01-05 18:49:03 <planetPlosion> Just trying to grasp how it would play out
1985 2011-01-05 18:49:37 <tonytraductor> one could  have multiple copies of your wallet (besides a backup), Yes?, so, for instance, you could have one in your netbook or droid phone, and one in your desktop, thus enabling you transact from various locations, since your balance is saved in the network? so long as you have the same bitcoin.conf, or something?
1986 2011-01-05 18:50:00 <kiba> the probelm with that, tonytraductor
1987 2011-01-05 18:50:03 <tonytraductor> all copies would be synched through the network, no?
1988 2011-01-05 18:50:13 <kiba> is that if someone stole your wallet, all the wallets are stolen on every computer
1989 2011-01-05 18:50:24 <tonytraductor> right
1990 2011-01-05 18:50:39 <kiba> I would have half different bitcoin wallets
1991 2011-01-05 18:50:49 <kiba> so, half sync to somewhere else, others synce to other place
1992 2011-01-05 18:50:54 <luke-jr> kiba: assuming your phone doesn't store it encrypted
1993 2011-01-05 18:50:57 <planetPlosion> you could just set up a script to remotely access your bitcoin wallet and send a specific amount anywhere
1994 2011-01-05 18:51:10 <luke-jr> planetPlosion: then you don't get  backups
1995 2011-01-05 18:51:11 <nanotube> tonytraductor: use separate wallets. otherwise they'll get out of sync due to new address generation being separate in each instance.
1996 2011-01-05 18:51:16 <tonytraductor> right, root the droid, ssh home to effect transaction
1997 2011-01-05 18:51:25 <kiba> anyway
1998 2011-01-05 18:51:27 <kiba> gottach go
1999 2011-01-05 18:56:59 genjix has joined
2000 2011-01-05 18:57:28 <genjix> CIA-106: <- which project is this bot for?
2001 2011-01-05 18:57:43 <nanotube> genjix: diablominer iirc
2002 2011-01-05 18:57:48 <nanotube> ;;seen CIA-106
2003 2011-01-05 18:57:48 <gribble> CIA-106 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 days, 16 hours, 45 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <CIA-106> DiabloMiner: response - http://bit.ly/eyx3FI
2004 2011-01-05 18:58:24 <Diablo-D3> probably mine
2005 2011-01-05 18:59:17 TD has joined
2006 2011-01-05 18:59:20 <genjix> ok
2007 2011-01-05 18:59:48 <tonytraductor> I'm just trying to think of the ways of keeping this a convenient transaction method on the go, from multiple devices.
2008 2011-01-05 19:00:04 <tonytraductor> I could store my wallet on my webserver and remotely access it or something, but that does seem risky.
2009 2011-01-05 19:00:18 <Diablo-D3> genjix: why do you want to know?
2010 2011-01-05 19:00:36 <genjix> wondering whether gavin has setup CIA for his bitcoin repo
2011 2011-01-05 19:01:15 <Diablo-D3> he should
2012 2011-01-05 19:01:27 <genjix> yep im mailing him now.
2013 2011-01-05 19:01:44 <genjix> *PMing
2014 2011-01-05 19:02:52 <nanotube> tonytraductor: ssh to your server from your smartphone is currently the best way, i guess.
2015 2011-01-05 19:06:45 <luke-jr> AFAIK, CIA bots are per like 30 projects ea
2016 2011-01-05 19:07:29 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
2017 2011-01-05 19:07:54 skeledrew has joined
2018 2011-01-05 19:08:41 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2629.0
2019 2011-01-05 19:08:47 <genjix> voice your opinions there
2020 2011-01-05 19:08:53 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: whatever max chans on freenode is
2021 2011-01-05 19:09:03 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: that varies by person
2022 2011-01-05 19:09:07 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I have max 50 IIRC
2023 2011-01-05 19:09:14 <Diablo-D3> genjix: just turn it into a poll
2024 2011-01-05 19:09:29 <genjix> why do you need a poll lol
2025 2011-01-05 19:09:37 <genjix> hardly objectionable.
2026 2011-01-05 19:09:37 <Diablo-D3> you said voice opinions
2027 2011-01-05 19:09:46 <Diablo-D3> opinions dont really need to be voiced
2028 2011-01-05 19:10:09 <genjix> yes they do. polls aren't very useful for discussion
2029 2011-01-05 19:10:15 <genjix> who is better X or Y
2030 2011-01-05 19:10:19 <genjix> vs
2031 2011-01-05 19:10:21 <genjix> discussion
2032 2011-01-05 19:10:39 <ArtForz> vi
2033 2011-01-05 19:11:15 <genjix> lol
2034 2011-01-05 19:11:28 <genjix> ArtForz: why you dont use vim?
2035 2011-01-05 19:12:12 <ArtForz> is there any other vi? *ducks*
2036 2011-01-05 19:12:28 <genjix> yeah just realised vi loads vim anyway
2037 2011-01-05 19:12:33 <jgarzik> good ole elvis
2038 2011-01-05 19:12:43 <ArtForz> nvi is pining for the fjords
2039 2011-01-05 19:12:55 <luke-jr> anyone up for #yandere game?
2040 2011-01-05 19:12:58 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/js-remote/ beta javascript remote :) needs jsonp patch
2041 2011-01-05 19:13:22 <genjix> tcatm: very nice!
2042 2011-01-05 19:13:49 <genjix> tcatm: can i send myself 1 btc to test?
2043 2011-01-05 19:13:55 <tcatm> genjix: sure
2044 2011-01-05 19:14:01 <genjix> kk ill send back
2045 2011-01-05 19:14:09 <tcatm> no need, it's testnet
2046 2011-01-05 19:14:36 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2047 2011-01-05 19:14:56 <genjix> oh ok
2048 2011-01-05 19:15:33 <genjix> guess that joke 'oops i mistyped 3 0's, has gone out the window then
2049 2011-01-05 19:15:37 jb55 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2050 2011-01-05 19:16:17 <tcatm> btw, works fine on android phone. any iPhone users around? :)
2051 2011-01-05 19:16:37 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2052 2011-01-05 19:18:38 kermit has joined
2053 2011-01-05 19:20:24 Dark_Ghost has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2054 2011-01-05 19:21:38 <lfm> so is the difficulty actually finally leveling off?
2055 2011-01-05 19:21:46 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
2056 2011-01-05 19:21:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101185 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1630 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 22 hours, 36 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 16914.52264116
2057 2011-01-05 19:22:09 * marioxcc votes for GNU Emacs, the customizable and extensible free software text editor :)
2058 2011-01-05 19:22:58 <lfm> marioxcc its not the onbly customizable and extensible free editor
2059 2011-01-05 19:23:09 <RichardG> in fact
2060 2011-01-05 19:23:15 WonTu has joined
2061 2011-01-05 19:23:15 <RichardG> i got an addiction to emacs today
2062 2011-01-05 19:23:28 WonTu has left ()
2063 2011-01-05 19:23:30 <RichardG> I have three IRC channels and one terminal open on cygwin emacs-X11
2064 2011-01-05 19:23:49 <RichardG> version me for ERC
2065 2011-01-05 19:23:55 <lfm> richardg well you should try linux then
2066 2011-01-05 19:24:00 <RichardG> I did.
2067 2011-01-05 19:24:05 <RichardG> too bad I have no space on my only HDD
2068 2011-01-05 19:24:20 genjix has left ()
2069 2011-01-05 19:24:26 <lfm> poor excuse HD are ultra cheap
2070 2011-01-05 19:24:55 <RichardG> lfm: on your country.
2071 2011-01-05 19:25:12 <lfm> um ya Canada, whats yours?
2072 2011-01-05 19:26:26 <lfm> I bet you could get a free old used hd of 20-40gb just about anywhere in the world. thatd be lots to do most things in linux
2073 2011-01-05 19:26:54 <RichardG> Brazil
2074 2011-01-05 19:26:56 <luke-jr> lfm: hard drives die after 3-5 years
2075 2011-01-05 19:27:05 <RichardG> and it's a 40GB which is already failing
2076 2011-01-05 19:27:13 <RichardG> not to the point where it starts giving I/O errors
2077 2011-01-05 19:27:21 <RichardG> but at the point the OS keeps restarting
2078 2011-01-05 19:27:28 <lfm> luke-jr not all of em, I have HD I been running 24-7 for 15 years
2079 2011-01-05 19:27:48 <luke-jr> lfm: and it's still 100% workinmg
2080 2011-01-05 19:27:49 <luke-jr> ?
2081 2011-01-05 19:28:03 <lfm> luke-ya of course
2082 2011-01-05 19:28:48 <lfm> richardg so how much you pay for HDs in Brasil?
2083 2011-01-05 19:29:10 <RichardG> I can get like 125-200 US dollars for 400 GB IDE.
2084 2011-01-05 19:29:26 <RichardG> not to count this is a legacy motherboard
2085 2011-01-05 19:29:31 <RichardG> socket a
2086 2011-01-05 19:29:48 <lfm> richardg so how bout say 80gb?
2087 2011-01-05 19:30:09 <marioxcc> use network based filesystems for all but the boot-essentials
2088 2011-01-05 19:30:23 <RichardG> lfm: 80 not enough for me
2089 2011-01-05 19:30:50 Slix` has joined
2090 2011-01-05 19:31:20 <lfm> richardg I thought you were running on 40 gb now? whys 80 not enuf?
2091 2011-01-05 19:32:09 <RichardG> I don't know
2092 2011-01-05 19:32:15 <RichardG> I think it's because I like to test OSes.
2093 2011-01-05 19:32:24 <lfm> richardg just to make you envious, the shop I go to sells 1tb seagates for $50 now
2094 2011-01-05 19:34:41 <RichardG> yeah but I know how to live on an emerging country
2095 2011-01-05 19:35:03 <RichardG> the price of a 1 GB DDR400, which I was looking for for 2 years but a friend gave me one
2096 2011-01-05 19:35:13 <RichardG> reduced to almost half in 2 years
2097 2011-01-05 19:35:15 <lfm> i admit brasil sounds pretty cool for a lot of things
2098 2011-01-05 19:37:24 <RichardG> still, I find using a legacy system cool to one point
2099 2011-01-05 19:37:33 <RichardG> some time ago, there was a troll named xelister here
2100 2011-01-05 19:37:55 <RichardG> he said mining with CPU was useless and he said he was going to create a CPU miners' xmas fund
2101 2011-01-05 19:38:26 <RichardG> ended up that, with this fund, I got 0.08 btc from xelister
2102 2011-01-05 19:38:35 <RichardG> and 1 btc from magical
2103 2011-01-05 19:39:38 <luke-jr> can I buy tech with BTC yet?
2104 2011-01-05 19:40:12 <tonytraductor> Brasil é o pais mais lindo.
2105 2011-01-05 19:40:33 <lfm> luke-jr you could get btc rebate for buying tech
2106 2011-01-05 19:42:36 <luke-jr> lfm: that's the wrong direction XD
2107 2011-01-05 19:42:54 <luke-jr> ability *spend* BTC is where it will get value
2108 2011-01-05 19:42:59 <luke-jr> not ability to *get* BTC
2109 2011-01-05 19:43:04 <lfm> luke what country ar eyou in?
2110 2011-01-05 19:43:07 <luke-jr> USA
2111 2011-01-05 19:43:43 <lfm> ok so sell btc for LR$ on mtgox and you can trade LR$ for us$ with lots of sites
2112 2011-01-05 19:44:24 <altamic> tcatm:  http://yfrog.com/h8dgap  http://yfrog.com/h29i5p
2113 2011-01-05 19:44:44 <luke-jr> btw, are LR$ really US$, or is it Liberty Dollars?
2114 2011-01-05 19:45:04 <Diablo-D3> liberty reserve you mean
2115 2011-01-05 19:45:36 <lfm> diablo ya
2116 2011-01-05 19:45:37 <luke-jr> yeah, is Liberty Reserve for USD or ALD?
2117 2011-01-05 19:48:44 <lfm> whats ALD?
2118 2011-01-05 19:48:57 <marioxcc> IMHO bitcoins should have been made more divisible from the begin, a good engineered system contemplates much further expansion
2119 2011-01-05 19:49:26 <lfm> marioxcc yes you told us that yesterday. give it a rest
2120 2011-01-05 19:49:45 <tcatm> altamic: looks good, thanks!
2121 2011-01-05 19:50:35 dsgtru has joined
2122 2011-01-05 19:50:47 <johnyh> luke-jr: tech?
2123 2011-01-05 19:50:57 <luke-jr> johnyh: yeah, like a new PC
2124 2011-01-05 19:51:03 <luke-jr> lfm: American Liberty Dollar
2125 2011-01-05 19:51:10 <luke-jr> lfm: gold-backed currency
2126 2011-01-05 19:51:15 <johnyh> ok so you ment items/hardware?
2127 2011-01-05 19:51:22 <luke-jr> johnyh: yeah
2128 2011-01-05 19:51:23 <johnyh> I can sell various PC parts in Poland for BTC
2129 2011-01-05 19:51:35 <luke-jr> too far ☹
2130 2011-01-05 19:51:37 <johnyh> including 5970, perhaps 5770
2131 2011-01-05 19:51:45 <luke-jr> wtf are those
2132 2011-01-05 19:51:48 <lfm> luke-jr I dont think liberty reserve is linked to american liberty dollar at all
2133 2011-01-05 19:51:50 gavinandresen has joined
2134 2011-01-05 19:51:52 <johnyh> radeon 5970
2135 2011-01-05 19:51:54 <altamic> tcatm: congrats, nice work
2136 2011-01-05 19:52:23 <luke-jr> 4670?
2137 2011-01-05 19:52:57 <lfm> 4670 is no longer current
2138 2011-01-05 19:53:21 <luke-jr> 4670 is best supported by Linux afaik
2139 2011-01-05 19:53:41 <lfm> linux video drivers are never current
2140 2011-01-05 19:53:48 <luke-jr> exactly!
2141 2011-01-05 19:54:12 <lfm> if you want old tech dont ask for new tech
2142 2011-01-05 19:54:32 <luke-jr> new as opposed to used :p
2143 2011-01-05 19:54:45 <lfm> luke-jr and 5770 works fine on linux current free drivers
2144 2011-01-05 19:54:52 <luke-jr> it does?
2145 2011-01-05 19:54:54 <lfm> just doesnt habve opencl is all
2146 2011-01-05 19:54:57 <slush> johnyh: how much for 5970?
2147 2011-01-05 19:54:58 <luke-jr> OpenGL?
2148 2011-01-05 19:55:29 <lfm> luke-jr yes I think opengl works
2149 2011-01-05 19:55:43 dsgtru has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2150 2011-01-05 19:56:14 <luke-jr> trying to decide on CPU
2151 2011-01-05 19:56:25 <luke-jr> Celeron E3300 or Athlon II X4 640
2152 2011-01-05 19:57:08 <lfm> celeron has tiny cache dont it?
2153 2011-01-05 19:57:22 <luke-jr> the X4 doesn't have any L3 cache at all
2154 2011-01-05 19:57:31 <marioxcc> IMHO amd is more serious about their products
2155 2011-01-05 19:57:32 <luke-jr> Celeron is 3x my current CPU; X4 is 5x
2156 2011-01-05 19:57:47 <marioxcc> probably the celeron will be discontinued in 1-2 years
2157 2011-01-05 19:57:51 <luke-jr> performance:price is about the same for each
2158 2011-01-05 19:57:52 <EvanR-work> x5x7x53x6x46x
2159 2011-01-05 19:58:30 <lfm> 3x to 5x is like 40% difference isnt it?
2160 2011-01-05 19:58:35 <luke-jr> marioxcc: the Celeron is a bit cheaper, and could be replaced w/ a Core2Extreme later
2161 2011-01-05 19:59:00 <luke-jr> lfm: nearly double
2162 2011-01-05 19:59:06 <luke-jr> the prices are nearly double too :p
2163 2011-01-05 19:59:06 <marioxcc> luke-jr: but they're discontinuated
2164 2011-01-05 19:59:15 <luke-jr> marioxcc: C2E is?
2165 2011-01-05 19:59:17 <marioxcc> <lfm> 3x to 5x is like 40% difference isnt it? <- depends on cache and how they communicate
2166 2011-01-05 19:59:29 <lfm> cant athlon get upgrades to phenom?
2167 2011-01-05 19:59:41 <luke-jr> lfm: dunno the AMD side
2168 2011-01-05 19:59:42 <marioxcc> luke-jr: i mean you don't easily get motherboards for core 2 extreme
2169 2011-01-05 19:59:52 <luke-jr> marioxcc: well, that might be the problem
2170 2011-01-05 19:59:55 <marioxcc> and you do for phenoms AM2 and AM3
2171 2011-01-05 20:00:03 <marioxcc> intel changes their sockets every 3 years
2172 2011-01-05 20:00:07 <luke-jr> I found 1 mobo that works for both Celeron and C2E and stuff, and it's out of stock :x
2173 2011-01-05 20:00:21 <marioxcc> lol
2174 2011-01-05 20:00:29 <luke-jr> that X4 is AM3
2175 2011-01-05 20:00:49 <lfm> ya 775 socket lasted quite a while
2176 2011-01-05 20:01:08 <luke-jr> I was waiting for the Sandy Bridge ones, but they seem to be a one-off socket -.-
2177 2011-01-05 20:01:14 <marioxcc> also, 775 processors still depend on the northbrigde for RAM access for what i undestand
2178 2011-01-05 20:01:20 <luke-jr> the Q4 2011 won't even be using the same socket
2179 2011-01-05 20:01:21 <marioxcc> AM3 have they memory controllers on the CPU
2180 2011-01-05 20:01:31 <lfm> marioxcc true
2181 2011-01-05 20:01:37 <Diablo-D3> thats not limited to am3
2182 2011-01-05 20:01:51 <luke-jr> so lack of L3 cache on the AM3 is no big deal?
2183 2011-01-05 20:01:59 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: AM3 has L3.
2184 2011-01-05 20:02:02 <Diablo-D3> it depends on the CPU
2185 2011-01-05 20:02:26 <Diablo-D3> athlon IIs go for 2x L2 and no L3, phenom IIs go for 1x L2 and a blob of L3.
2186 2011-01-05 20:02:32 <lfm> l3 cache kinda needs embedded mem ctrl to be efficient it seems
2187 2011-01-05 20:02:40 <Diablo-D3> lfm: well
2188 2011-01-05 20:02:45 <Diablo-D3> its only used by the memory controller
2189 2011-01-05 20:02:52 <Diablo-D3> its a global shared cache
2190 2011-01-05 20:03:19 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: that AM3 doesn't have L3
2191 2011-01-05 20:03:40 <lfm> luke-jr some do and some dont
2192 2011-01-05 20:04:01 <luke-jr> I'm only looking at the <$100 price range really
2193 2011-01-05 20:04:12 <luke-jr> unless I can be convinced there's huge price savings by going slightly over
2194 2011-01-05 20:04:21 <Diablo-D3> well, there is
2195 2011-01-05 20:04:23 <lfm> luke-jr ya the cheapest ones kinda tend to drop the l3
2196 2011-01-05 20:04:27 <luke-jr> but my A64 3200+ is really quite fast, I don't *need* a better CPU
2197 2011-01-05 20:04:38 <Diablo-D3> its not about "cheapest"
2198 2011-01-05 20:04:45 <Diablo-D3> [02:59:09] <Diablo-D3> athlon IIs go for 2x L2 and no L3, phenom IIs go for 1x L2 and a blob of L3.
2199 2011-01-05 20:04:48 <Diablo-D3> no one listens.
2200 2011-01-05 20:04:56 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
2201 2011-01-05 20:05:06 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: but what's the diffence?
2202 2011-01-05 20:05:12 <Diablo-D3> thats the difference.
2203 2011-01-05 20:05:19 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: when any CPU is good enough, cheapest is all I really care about
2204 2011-01-05 20:05:25 <marioxcc> they won't tell you the access times to each cache layer anyway
2205 2011-01-05 20:05:25 <Diablo-D3> athlon IIs are only worth buying for dual core
2206 2011-01-05 20:05:29 <marioxcc> so you can only speculate
2207 2011-01-05 20:05:35 <Diablo-D3> phenom IIs are only worth buying for quad core
2208 2011-01-05 20:05:37 <lfm> and arnt phenom cost more than athlon in general?
2209 2011-01-05 20:05:39 <Diablo-D3> marioxcc: not an issue of access time
2210 2011-01-05 20:05:40 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: this is quad-core without L3
2211 2011-01-05 20:05:47 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes, and its not worth owning
2212 2011-01-05 20:05:54 <Diablo-D3> they make quad core athlon IIs, its pointless
2213 2011-01-05 20:06:08 <luke-jr> …
2214 2011-01-05 20:06:15 <lfm> diablo-d3 what about the x6?
2215 2011-01-05 20:06:16 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it's 5 times faster than what I have now
2216 2011-01-05 20:06:30 <Diablo-D3> lfm: doesnt matter, they dont make a x6 athlon II
2217 2011-01-05 20:06:40 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes, and the lack of L3 fucks them
2218 2011-01-05 20:07:07 * luke-jr doesn't think his current CPU even has L3
2219 2011-01-05 20:07:08 <hpj> i'd trust real-life benchmarks on the task i was predominantly going to use it for over idle speculation on cache efficiency
2220 2011-01-05 20:07:10 cdecker has joined
2221 2011-01-05 20:07:18 <hpj> but in that price range, i'd probably settle for practical
2222 2011-01-05 20:07:23 cdecker has left ()
2223 2011-01-05 20:07:30 <Diablo-D3> hpj: well
2224 2011-01-05 20:07:36 <Diablo-D3> unless the application rapes cache
2225 2011-01-05 20:07:38 <Diablo-D3> neither will win
2226 2011-01-05 20:07:41 <hpj> e.g. not far to walk to the store/mailbox to pick it up from, not having to wait long to get it, not having to get an extra fan, etc.
2227 2011-01-05 20:07:55 <EvanR-work> paying less!
2228 2011-01-05 20:08:05 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: what do you think of the 1100T and friends?
2229 2011-01-05 20:08:17 <lfm> luke-jr true athlon prolly good enuf for almost anyone
2230 2011-01-05 20:08:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: just buy this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103916
2231 2011-01-05 20:08:36 tonytraductor has quit (Quit: leaving)
2232 2011-01-05 20:09:36 <lfm> he sed BELOW $100
2233 2011-01-05 20:09:39 osmosis has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2234 2011-01-05 20:09:48 <Diablo-D3> lfm: he said whats worth it.
2235 2011-01-05 20:09:49 <marioxcc> "We help by running additional, high bandwidth Tor relays."
2236 2011-01-05 20:09:54 <marioxcc> sorry, wrong channel
2237 2011-01-05 20:10:03 <Diablo-D3> otherwise hes spending $56 on the slowest athlon II
2238 2011-01-05 20:10:30 <Diablo-D3> marioxcc: the x6 are... just x6. nothing really different than x4.
2239 2011-01-05 20:10:43 <lfm> diablo-d3 actually I agree that looks like a good cpu
2240 2011-01-05 20:11:55 osmosis has joined
2241 2011-01-05 20:13:19 <Diablo-D3> there only really is two choices here
2242 2011-01-05 20:15:00 xelister has joined
2243 2011-01-05 20:15:30 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: cpubenchmark.net sez that isn't worth $30 more
2244 2011-01-05 20:15:53 <RichardG> welcome back, xelister
2245 2011-01-05 20:15:53 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: so?
2246 2011-01-05 20:15:59 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: so is it wrong?
2247 2011-01-05 20:16:00 <RichardG> how are your cpu miners' fund
2248 2011-01-05 20:16:04 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: very.
2249 2011-01-05 20:16:16 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: how?
2250 2011-01-05 20:16:18 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: if you actually have apps that use all four cores, then they will be raping cache.
2251 2011-01-05 20:16:23 <RichardG> s/are/is
2252 2011-01-05 20:16:28 <RichardG> /
2253 2011-01-05 20:16:31 <Diablo-D3> and the whole design of the chip is rather fucked without the L3
2254 2011-01-05 20:16:44 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I'm assuming different apps running on each core
2255 2011-01-05 20:16:45 <Diablo-D3> the only problem is, the dual core design cant effectively use the L3
2256 2011-01-05 20:16:47 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: are you an AMD EE?
2257 2011-01-05 20:16:54 <Diablo-D3> marioxcc: no, but I might as well be
2258 2011-01-05 20:17:06 <marioxcc> <Diablo-D3> and the whole design of the chip is rather fucked without the L3 <- have you actually seen it?
2259 2011-01-05 20:17:09 <Diablo-D3> this is why athlon II x4 and phenom II x2 are pointless
2260 2011-01-05 20:17:16 <Diablo-D3> marioxcc: in use? yes.
2261 2011-01-05 20:17:25 <marioxcc> you said the design
2262 2011-01-05 20:17:32 <marioxcc> did you saw the design?
2263 2011-01-05 20:17:40 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: cpubenchmark.net is based on real performance benchmarks…
2264 2011-01-05 20:17:40 <Diablo-D3> can I just beat you with a crowbar already?
2265 2011-01-05 20:17:50 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: benchmarks are rather pointless.
2266 2011-01-05 20:18:02 <luke-jr> …….
2267 2011-01-05 20:18:02 <Diablo-D3> I doubt they have a benchmark that measures cache abuse.
2268 2011-01-05 20:18:12 <luke-jr> no other way to measure performance
2269 2011-01-05 20:18:26 <Diablo-D3> using your actual fucking intended workload is how you benchmark.
2270 2011-01-05 20:18:30 <Diablo-D3> anything else is pointless.
2271 2011-01-05 20:18:45 * luke-jr isn't going to buy 100 CPUs just to compare on his specific workload
2272 2011-01-05 20:18:58 <Diablo-D3> your workload sounds like it idles all day long
2273 2011-01-05 20:19:23 <luke-jr> it might, with that much CPU power
2274 2011-01-05 20:19:32 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: the choice is
2275 2011-01-05 20:19:34 <luke-jr> right now my 3200 is pegged 24/7
2276 2011-01-05 20:19:34 <Diablo-D3> dual core
2277 2011-01-05 20:19:36 <Diablo-D3> or quad core.
2278 2011-01-05 20:19:45 <Diablo-D3> you have exactly two choices.
2279 2011-01-05 20:19:56 <Diablo-D3> dual core, you buy an athlon II x2.
2280 2011-01-05 20:20:03 <Diablo-D3> quad core, you buy a phenom II x4.
2281 2011-01-05 20:20:09 <luke-jr> actually, it only looks pegged
2282 2011-01-05 20:20:18 <luke-jr> 65% of the time, it runs at 1 GHz underclocked
2283 2011-01-05 20:20:29 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: dual core, I might as well go with that Celeron
2284 2011-01-05 20:20:39 <Diablo-D3> no, you might as well go with that athlon II
2285 2011-01-05 20:20:42 <Diablo-D3> far more efficient.
2286 2011-01-05 20:21:20 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: what's worse? turning off 2 of the 4 cores, or running all 4 cores?
2287 2011-01-05 20:21:32 <Diablo-D3> that doesnt make sense
2288 2011-01-05 20:22:02 RazielZ has quit ()
2289 2011-01-05 20:23:15 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: if I turn off half the cores in that $99 Athlon II, will it perform better than if I leave all 4 enabled?
2290 2011-01-05 20:23:30 <Diablo-D3> ...
2291 2011-01-05 20:23:44 <luke-jr> isn't that what you're basically saying?
2292 2011-01-05 20:23:53 <Diablo-D3> no, not at all
2293 2011-01-05 20:24:04 <Diablo-D3> the dual core athlon IIs are native dual core packages.
2294 2011-01-05 20:24:09 <x6763> hmmm...i'm looking at a tcp packet sent by the official bitcoin client, and this packet contains the 'verack', 'getaddr', and 'getblocks' commands...verack has both no checksum and no payload, but getaddr *has a checksum* despite having no data...is this intended behavior?
2295 2011-01-05 20:24:21 <lfm> x2 doesnt have half chip idling!
2296 2011-01-05 20:25:12 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, but the sempron "does"
2297 2011-01-05 20:25:28 <Diablo-D3> except for the fact dead cores dont idle, they're _dead_
2298 2011-01-05 20:25:41 <EvanR-work> x6763: pay no attention to that, its satoshi's backdoor
2299 2011-01-05 20:26:30 <x6763> lol...i'm just trying to implement the protocol, and with this strange "checksum of nothing" there, i'm not sure when i should be expecting checksums and when i shouldn't be
2300 2011-01-05 20:26:41 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: are you saying the Phenom you linked is actually 130% the performance of the Athlon?
2301 2011-01-05 20:27:00 <marioxcc> x6763: are you reimpleneting bitcoin?
2302 2011-01-05 20:27:13 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: your math sucks.
2303 2011-01-05 20:27:21 <lfm> evenr-work whats that? seems kinda silly to open source with backdoors?
2304 2011-01-05 20:27:24 <x6763> sort of...i'm mainly studying the protocol for the purposes of maybe using it for dns
2305 2011-01-05 20:27:46 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no one would suspect it
2306 2011-01-05 20:27:46 <x6763> ^-> marioxcc
2307 2011-01-05 20:28:02 <marioxcc> x6763: ok
2308 2011-01-05 20:28:15 <lfm> diablo-d3 it seems evenr does expect it
2309 2011-01-05 20:28:33 <EvanR-work> no one expects the spanish inquisition
2310 2011-01-05 20:28:35 <x6763> i'll probably end just reimplementing the bitcoin client, anyway, in the process of doing this
2311 2011-01-05 20:28:39 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: …
2312 2011-01-05 20:28:55 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: if the price is 130%, it's only worth it if the performace is 130%+ too
2313 2011-01-05 20:28:57 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: you have 2 cores. then, you have 4. thats 200% of the performance.
2314 2011-01-05 20:29:07 <EvanR-work> x6763: be sure not to bother with a gui or anything. just implement a basic client
2315 2011-01-05 20:29:10 <Diablo-D3> and how do you figure the price is 130%?
2316 2011-01-05 20:29:13 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: they're both 4 cores
2317 2011-01-05 20:29:16 <EvanR-work> perhaps non interactive
2318 2011-01-05 20:29:21 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: not the x2 I showed you.
2319 2011-01-05 20:29:23 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: $99 vs $129
2320 2011-01-05 20:29:49 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: the athlon II x4s arent worth buying
2321 2011-01-05 20:29:53 <x6763> EvanR-work: haven't even wasted a thought on a gui yet
2322 2011-01-05 20:30:33 <luke-jr> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=19-103-871 vs http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103916
2323 2011-01-05 20:30:34 soultcer has joined
2324 2011-01-05 20:30:55 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: that's what you're trying to argue, but I don't see it
2325 2011-01-05 20:31:15 <luke-jr> the Phenom is 130% the price of the Athlon
2326 2011-01-05 20:31:22 soultcer has quit (Client Quit)
2327 2011-01-05 20:31:35 soultcer has joined
2328 2011-01-05 20:31:39 <luke-jr> but only like 110% the performance according to the benchmark
2329 2011-01-05 20:31:41 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: except your comparison is fail
2330 2011-01-05 20:31:48 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: fail how?
2331 2011-01-05 20:31:57 <Diablo-D3> different speed.s
2332 2011-01-05 20:32:01 <luke-jr> …
2333 2011-01-05 20:32:58 <luke-jr> so you're saying hte benchmark is wrong, and the Phenom is 130+% performance of the Athlon?
2334 2011-01-05 20:33:17 <Diablo-D3> the benchmark does not include anything that would show off the performance
2335 2011-01-05 20:33:21 <Diablo-D3> so why keep talking about it?
2336 2011-01-05 20:33:44 lucky has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2337 2011-01-05 20:33:55 <luke-jr> benchmark is the only measure of performance I have
2338 2011-01-05 20:34:16 <luke-jr> if you want to say it's wrong that's fine, but provide me with an alternative
2339 2011-01-05 20:34:49 * Diablo-D3 facepalms.
2340 2011-01-05 20:34:59 <Diablo-D3> talking to a brick wall, seriously
2341 2011-01-05 20:35:26 <luke-jr> if measuring performance is impossible, and I have to go based only on price, I mgiht as well get the Celeron
2342 2011-01-05 20:36:08 <Diablo-D3> why would you buy an intel product?
2343 2011-01-05 20:36:10 <Diablo-D3> thats retarded.
2344 2011-01-05 20:36:17 <luke-jr> (same if it's impractical; eg, my own workload)
2345 2011-01-05 20:36:56 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you're telling me stuff with nothing to back it up
2346 2011-01-05 20:38:08 lucky has joined
2347 2011-01-05 20:38:08 <luke-jr> why would I buy Intel? it's cheaper.
2348 2011-01-05 20:38:15 <Diablo-D3> Im telling you whats immediately obvious.
2349 2011-01-05 20:38:26 <Diablo-D3> either you have tasks that dont need a quad core, or you do.
2350 2011-01-05 20:39:05 <luke-jr> how about regular 2-process, with occasional 4+ process bursts?
2351 2011-01-05 20:40:47 <luke-jr> really, I'd probably be idling at 1 process if kmail wasn't sitting there pegged for some reason
2352 2011-01-05 20:42:04 <marioxcc> luke-jr: you can basically use any number of cores
2353 2011-01-05 20:42:10 <marioxcc> for compiling you have -j N
2354 2011-01-05 20:42:17 <marioxcc> make -j 4 here, oh yeah!
2355 2011-01-05 20:42:21 <luke-jr> :p
2356 2011-01-05 20:42:43 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: so does that Phenom perform 130% of that Athlon or not?
2357 2011-01-05 20:42:43 <marioxcc> any big enought task can be parallelized, and several are alredy :)
2358 2011-01-05 20:42:57 <marioxcc> lzip have a multithreading option
2359 2011-01-05 20:43:07 <marioxcc> bzip have a separate multithreading implementation
2360 2011-01-05 20:44:26 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: sure, on the apps that work well on many cores
2361 2011-01-05 20:45:10 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: what about on 4 independent unrelated apps?
2362 2011-01-05 20:46:49 <marioxcc> probably cache is the issue then luke-jr
2363 2011-01-05 20:49:11 <hpj> aren't there a lot of benchmarks floating around on review sites? can't you just look it up?
2364 2011-01-05 20:49:14 <luke-jr> marioxcc: so… you're saying it'd be even better then?
2365 2011-01-05 20:49:22 <luke-jr> hpj: Diablo-D3 says benchmarks are total BS
2366 2011-01-05 20:49:41 <hpj> synthetic ones sometimes are
2367 2011-01-05 20:49:50 <marioxcc> luke-jr: depending on cache
2368 2011-01-05 20:50:04 <luke-jr> hpj: you know a reliable one?
2369 2011-01-05 20:50:07 <hpj> and they'll have to benchmark the exact make you're thinking of getting
2370 2011-01-05 20:50:10 <luke-jr> hpj: I was using cpubenchmarks.net
2371 2011-01-05 20:50:13 <hpj> i've used tomshardware.com before
2372 2011-01-05 20:50:19 <marioxcc> 4 different RAM intensive tasks aren't going to perform much better on a quad core than a dual core, unless it have more cache
2373 2011-01-05 20:50:29 <hpj> but i don't really fret over hardware purchases anymore
2374 2011-01-05 20:50:54 <luke-jr> hpj: well, this is $30 difference on the CPU just for L3 cache (and slower GHz)
2375 2011-01-05 20:51:08 <hpj> i just get something that seems to be about 3/4 of the way up in most of the benchmarks
2376 2011-01-05 20:51:27 <marioxcc> well, with pipelining, branch prediction and so you can't really judge a CPU because of it GHz
2377 2011-01-05 20:52:53 <luke-jr> hpj: I'm just looking low-end now
2378 2011-01-05 20:53:10 <hpj> CPUs are so complex now that you really have to judge them on how they perform on a particular task that resembles what you're going to do with it
2379 2011-01-05 20:53:16 sethsethseth__ has joined
2380 2011-01-05 20:53:22 <marioxcc> hpj: exactly
2381 2011-01-05 20:53:24 <hpj> but for most users, it's not worth the effort to even bother to research it much
2382 2011-01-05 20:53:24 <luke-jr> marioxcc: GHz is certainly a *factor* tho
2383 2011-01-05 20:53:36 <hpj> more expensive = more better
2384 2011-01-05 20:53:42 <hpj> roughly
2385 2011-01-05 20:54:04 <marioxcc> is "more better" correct in english?
2386 2011-01-05 20:54:18 <luke-jr> hpj: I'm looking at $58 Celeron E3300 vs $100 AthlonII X4 640 vs $130 PhenomII X4 925
2387 2011-01-05 20:54:21 <marioxcc> in spanish you would say the equivalent to just "better"
2388 2011-01-05 20:54:22 <hpj> marioxcc: i'm sure it is, somewhere :)
2389 2011-01-05 20:54:52 <luke-jr> the cpubenchmarks.net shows the AthlonII at about 2x the performance as the Celeron, but the Phenom only about 110% of the Athlon
2390 2011-01-05 20:57:00 <hpj> marioxcc: technically, it should be only "better", but adding "more" in front adds humorous nuance
2391 2011-01-05 20:57:12 <marioxcc> fine
2392 2011-01-05 21:00:45 <luke-jr> ##Hardware is telling me the same thing as Diablo-D3 fwiw
2393 2011-01-05 21:01:54 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2394 2011-01-05 21:06:34 marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK
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2396 2011-01-05 21:08:05 <xelister> blaaaaaaaaargh
2397 2011-01-05 21:08:35 <xelister> CrossShit from crappy Ati again re-enables itself. it is like cancer.
2398 2011-01-05 21:09:27 <sipa> OS?
2399 2011-01-05 21:09:32 <xelister> linux
2400 2011-01-05 21:09:38 <sipa> hmm
2401 2011-01-05 21:09:52 <xelister> what we the /etc/ file to NUKE FROM FUCKING ORBIT to delete ati's crap?
2402 2011-01-05 21:10:14 <xelister> it never stops to amaze how incredibly shitty Ati drivers are. Daikatana is beter coded.
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2406 2011-01-05 21:19:37 marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc
2407 2011-01-05 21:20:54 <marioxcc> linux is a kernel, not an operating system
2408 2011-01-05 21:21:41 <marioxcc> I invite you to read a good easay about http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html, if you have some time
2409 2011-01-05 21:22:22 <luke-jr> I never got a clear answer-- if I get onboard GPU with OpenCL, can I use it for that even if I have a discrete for my real gfx?
2410 2011-01-05 21:23:39 <luke-jr> marioxcc: to be fair, GNU isn't an OS either until they ship something :P
2411 2011-01-05 21:23:51 <luke-jr> it's *almost* there, but I think it needs HURD still
2412 2011-01-05 21:24:01 <luke-jr> unless they want to ship a GNU/Linux OS while they wait
2413 2011-01-05 21:24:21 <marioxcc> luke-jr: it is explained o nthe essay
2414 2011-01-05 21:24:22 <marioxcc> *the
2415 2011-01-05 21:33:57 <Pegasus-Rider> Well, GNU Hurd is there, and I know a person who uses it as his primary OS
2416 2011-01-05 21:35:45 <zygf> is it chuck norris? :P
2417 2011-01-05 21:36:10 <Pegasus-Rider> Eh?
2418 2011-01-05 21:36:32 <marioxcc> i think there is a debian which uses GNU Hurd rather than linux
2419 2011-01-05 21:36:50 <xelister> marioxcc: yea
2420 2011-01-05 21:37:00 <marioxcc> however, I don't think makes the differece regarding whether GNU is or isn't an operating system
2421 2011-01-05 21:40:17 Pegasus-Rider has quit (Quit: Thanks for informative discussions :-))
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2423 2011-01-05 21:47:21 <lfm> gnu's not unix so is unix an os?
2424 2011-01-05 21:49:05 <marioxcc> yes
2425 2011-01-05 21:49:12 <marioxcc> UNIX is an OS
2426 2011-01-05 21:49:27 <marioxcc> now "UNIX" is used to name really UNIX-like OS
2427 2011-01-05 21:49:34 <marioxcc> in that sense, GNU/Linux is UNIX
2428 2011-01-05 21:49:38 <marioxcc> which is a contradiction
2429 2011-01-05 21:49:50 <marioxcc> but I undestand it don't used to be that way
2430 2011-01-05 21:51:03 <lfm> is mswin an os then?
2431 2011-01-05 21:51:40 <marioxcc> are you kidding?
2432 2011-01-05 21:52:11 <lfm> lots of people say mswin is just a gui shell over dos
2433 2011-01-05 21:52:49 <marioxcc> oh, well
2434 2011-01-05 21:53:01 <marioxcc> i don't really know then whether W is a OS
2435 2011-01-05 21:53:03 <lfm> and dos, even tho it is call a disk os isnt an os cuz it is single process
2436 2011-01-05 21:53:31 <blakkino> lfm, win 3.1 was a gui shell over dos
2437 2011-01-05 21:54:03 <lfm> ok so winxp is a gui shell over nt
2438 2011-01-05 21:54:05 <blakkino> lfm, win9x was an os but it still had many dos design flaws
2439 2011-01-05 21:54:22 <blakkino> lfm, and winxp is win nt 6 :)
2440 2011-01-05 21:55:45 <lfm> xp isnt really an os cuz everyone runs as the administrator and its still only one user at a time
2441 2011-01-05 21:56:20 <blakkino> lfm, false
2442 2011-01-05 21:56:34 <blakkino> lfm, and even os with only one user are still os
2443 2011-01-05 21:56:49 <lfm> not a REAL os
2444 2011-01-05 21:56:50 <blakkino> lfm, check wikipedia, we're off topic here
2445 2011-01-05 21:57:00 <marioxcc> wikipedia is not more an autorithy than you or me
2446 2011-01-05 21:57:55 <lfm> ya wiki is always wrong
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2458 2011-01-05 22:47:34 <Diablo-D3> [04:45:56] <marioxcc> UNIX is an OS
2459 2011-01-05 22:47:38 <Diablo-D3> no, its a trademark
2460 2011-01-05 22:50:55 <lucky> heh
2461 2011-01-05 22:50:59 <lucky> very true.
2462 2011-01-05 22:54:07 <lucky> arguably, the last release of "real" Unix is either v7 (1979) or Sys V (1988), otherwise "Unix" is now a bunch of operating systems with similar characteristics which got certified by some group
2463 2011-01-05 22:54:12 <lucky> and the rest are "Unix-like"
2464 2011-01-05 22:55:31 <Diablo-D3> I mean fuck
2465 2011-01-05 22:55:32 <Diablo-D3> OSX
2466 2011-01-05 22:55:33 <Diablo-D3> is a Unix
2467 2011-01-05 22:55:38 <lucky> Well, it is.
2468 2011-01-05 22:55:49 <Diablo-D3> yes, because they paid for it.
2469 2011-01-05 22:55:59 <lucky> it's also very Unix-y
2470 2011-01-05 22:56:04 <Diablo-D3> well, yes
2471 2011-01-05 22:56:04 <sipa> underneath, yes
2472 2011-01-05 22:56:15 <Diablo-D3> its fbsd userland, which mach combined with who knows what as a kernel
2473 2011-01-05 22:56:22 <Diablo-D3> er, with
2474 2011-01-05 22:56:50 <lucky> if something as strange as the Unix compatibility layer in z/OS counts as Unix, Mac OS X is *definitely* a Unix.
2475 2011-01-05 22:56:59 <Diablo-D3> lucky: no
2476 2011-01-05 22:57:03 <Diablo-D3> its a unix because they paid for it.
2477 2011-01-05 22:57:10 <lucky> that's what i just said.
2478 2011-01-05 22:57:15 <Diablo-D3> heh
2479 2011-01-05 22:57:19 <Diablo-D3> but heres the problem
2480 2011-01-05 22:57:32 <Diablo-D3> the BSDs _are_ a unix in the sense that they didnt pay for it and cant call themselves that.
2481 2011-01-05 22:57:33 <lucky> Because OpenMVS is definitely not Unix-like, but it is Unix. :P
2482 2011-01-05 22:59:22 <marioxcc> <Diablo-D3> no, its a trademark <- just as "Diablo-D3" isn't a person but a nickname or a "computer" is not a object but a word
2483 2011-01-05 22:59:24 <marioxcc> silly...
2484 2011-01-05 22:59:39 <Diablo-D3> marioxcc: unix has not been an os since the 70s.
2485 2011-01-05 22:59:49 <lucky> marioxcc, what is Unix then?
2486 2011-01-05 22:59:52 <lucky> which specific codebase?
2487 2011-01-05 23:00:08 <marioxcc> is is an old OS
2488 2011-01-05 23:00:20 <lucky> Solaris is probably the most popular OS derived from the original codebase
2489 2011-01-05 23:00:24 <marioxcc> that don't means it is less of an OS
2490 2011-01-05 23:00:36 <Diablo-D3> lucky: probably
2491 2011-01-05 23:00:37 <marioxcc> DOS is as much of an OS now than it was 20 years ago
2492 2011-01-05 23:00:41 <Diablo-D3> I mean, who else is left
2493 2011-01-05 23:00:43 <Diablo-D3> hpux is dead
2494 2011-01-05 23:00:46 <Diablo-D3> aix is dead
2495 2011-01-05 23:01:09 <lucky> nah, neither are "dead" they're on life support. :p
2496 2011-01-05 23:01:16 <lucky> then again, Solaris is probably on life support now too.
2497 2011-01-05 23:01:34 <Diablo-D3> they're dead in the sense no one buys actually new licenses
2498 2011-01-05 23:01:34 <marioxcc> Diablo-D3: i don't say UNIX is live, you're reading what you would like others to write, not what we actually say
2499 2011-01-05 23:01:58 <lucky> opensolaris was the great unix hope, and oracle torpedoed, nuked then gassed it.
2500 2011-01-05 23:02:01 <Diablo-D3> (technically they still sell new aix, but they're tied to the hardware, and they're being bought for pre-existing legacy AIX installations during hardware replacement)
2501 2011-01-05 23:02:32 <Diablo-D3> the only life supports until the official EOL and all support contracts are dead date passes
2502 2011-01-05 23:02:35 <Diablo-D3> which might be awhile
2503 2011-01-05 23:03:06 <lucky> AIX is still getting new development, so i wouldn't say dead yet, "critically endangered" might be a good term :p
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2505 2011-01-05 23:04:25 <Diablo-D3> solaris kind of fucked
2506 2011-01-05 23:04:29 <Diablo-D3> did you hear the new shit?
2507 2011-01-05 23:04:41 <Diablo-D3> sparc T* are their flagship heavy compute shit
2508 2011-01-05 23:04:57 <Diablo-D3> T4 might be shipping with linux instead of solaris
2509 2011-01-05 23:05:03 <lucky> hurr.
2510 2011-01-05 23:05:15 <lucky> that's so wrong :|
2511 2011-01-05 23:05:22 <Diablo-D3> thats fucking hilarious
2512 2011-01-05 23:05:30 <Diablo-D3> I wasnt even aware linux ran correctly on those boxes
2513 2011-01-05 23:06:42 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2514 2011-01-05 23:07:11 <lucky> oh probably does, even FreeBSD runs well enough on T1 and T2 machines now.
2515 2011-01-05 23:07:33 <Diablo-D3> oh sure, linux WORKS on them
2516 2011-01-05 23:07:37 <Diablo-D3> but CFS is a pile of fucking shit
2517 2011-01-05 23:07:48 <Diablo-D3> unless you're going to put BFS in your kernel, say goodbye to your performance
2518 2011-01-05 23:07:56 <Diablo-D3> and double plus ungood, linux's network stack is shit
2519 2011-01-05 23:10:06 <zygf> I haven't noticed, aside from being in need of a bit of refactoring, because between netfilter, routing and traffic control, there's a lot of stuff that's similar and could be integrated
2520 2011-01-05 23:12:07 <kartofeln> talking of shit network stack, I tried to run mz on my linux box the other day, emitting packets at full speed.
2521 2011-01-05 23:12:21 <kartofeln> it insta-crashed my vista x64 box on the same wire.
2522 2011-01-05 23:12:48 <Diablo-D3> hahahahah
2523 2011-01-05 23:12:51 <Diablo-D3> _nice_
2524 2011-01-05 23:12:56 <Diablo-D3> zygf: dude
2525 2011-01-05 23:13:01 <Diablo-D3> I fucking hate iptables
2526 2011-01-05 23:13:04 <Diablo-D3> I hate it I hate it I hate it
2527 2011-01-05 23:13:43 <zygf> I'm comfortable with it, I prefer the lengthy syntax to bsd's total lack of punctuation
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2537 2011-01-05 23:42:28 <chuck251> I woke up today, almost all my hashes to Slush's pool were invalid... I installed the newest poclbm and it seems ok now, I think - what changed??
2538 2011-01-05 23:43:39 <nanotube> chuck251: slush mentioned something earlier about some errors... dunno the details.
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