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   2 2011-01-06 00:05:24 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=uk&v=yjacqcTFYFw
   3 2011-01-06 00:08:57 <kiba>  what the youtube video about?
   4 2011-01-06 00:09:22 <kiba> my visit to college was a whole lot of nothing
   5 2011-01-06 00:12:05 * kiba is currently WTFing himself regarding his refund
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  23 2011-01-06 01:14:58 <fabianhjr> I feel so bad. Stupid Telmex they cut my Internet access for 24+ hours D:
  24 2011-01-06 01:15:16 <fabianhjr> marioxcc: sorry buddy, was knocked offline. I need a new ISP.
  25 2011-01-06 01:15:37 <fabianhjr> Now I probably missed the great 5 BTC/month dedi box. >_<
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  27 2011-01-06 01:15:46 <kartofeln> this is exactly why I have a phone ready to be tethered so I won't go into withdrawal.
  28 2011-01-06 01:16:08 <fabianhjr> kartofeln: I only have an old cellphone with no internet access.
  29 2011-01-06 01:16:11 <lfm> did you download too much?
  30 2011-01-06 01:16:20 <fabianhjr> It is a really nice Motorola though. :D
  31 2011-01-06 01:16:32 <fabianhjr> lfm: no, they had issues with the central.
  32 2011-01-06 01:16:38 soultcer has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  33 2011-01-06 01:16:49 <kartofeln> bummer. internet addicts really ought to have a plan B though.
  34 2011-01-06 01:17:00 <fabianhjr> I am regularly knocked offline because of the bad quality of service.
  35 2011-01-06 01:17:01 <kartofeln> even if that implies cracking your neighbor's WEP passwd. O_o
  36 2011-01-06 01:17:22 <fabianhjr> kartofeln: I AM downloading aircrack-ng NOW!
  37 2011-01-06 01:17:31 <kartofeln> that's the spirit! \o/
  38 2011-01-06 01:17:59 <fabianhjr> Though, I feel bad because someone in the forums was selling this: https://www.ovh.co.uk/products/rps3.xml for 5 BTC month. >_<
  39 2011-01-06 01:18:00 int0x27h has joined
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  41 2011-01-06 01:18:19 <kartofeln> yeah I saw that.. that seems like an entirely unrealistic pricing though.
  42 2011-01-06 01:18:32 <fabianhjr> Now I probably missed it. It is worth actually ~80 BTC/month at current exchange.
  43 2011-01-06 01:19:41 <fabianhjr> kartofeln: yeah, just imaging reselling VPS of like 256 MB RAM and 5 GB each and 20 GB transfer. :P
  44 2011-01-06 01:20:10 <fabianhjr> Hell you could do 512 MB RAM at what it comes by default.
  45 2011-01-06 01:21:24 <fabianhjr> :/
  46 2011-01-06 01:22:01 <kartofeln> I'm just going to assume it's a silly offer. at best, it'd have to be a first-month pricing promotion.
  47 2011-01-06 01:22:52 <newsham> i mined a bitcoin
  48 2011-01-06 01:23:01 <sipa> newsham: congrats!
  49 2011-01-06 01:23:10 <newsham> anyone got a bubblegum machine for me to drop this coin into?
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  59 2011-01-06 01:39:56 <fabianhjr> newsham: how much coins you have?
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  64 2011-01-06 01:58:38 <afed> ys hello
  65 2011-01-06 01:59:27 <fabianhjr> afed are you a FED?
  66 2011-01-06 01:59:35 <afed> no
  67 2011-01-06 01:59:37 <afed> that's just my nick
  68 2011-01-06 02:00:04 <afed> having trouble with my dual 5870 setup
  69 2011-01-06 02:00:45 <afed> with crossfire enabled, poclbm finds both GPUS, good performance if i run one instance, bad performance if i run it on both GPUS (100 instead of 300 mhash)
  70 2011-01-06 02:00:47 <luke-jr> marioxcc: Debian is the OS
  71 2011-01-06 02:00:55 <afed> if i disable crossfire i only see one GPU
  72 2011-01-06 02:01:13 <marioxcc> luke-jr: ???
  73 2011-01-06 02:01:30 <fabianhjr> afed: disable crossfire and set up two scripts.
  74 2011-01-06 02:01:37 <afed> fabianhjr: i have two scripts
  75 2011-01-06 02:01:39 <fabianhjr> One with -d 1 and the other with -d 2
  76 2011-01-06 02:01:40 <luke-jr> marioxcc: Debian, not GNU, is the OS you were talking about
  77 2011-01-06 02:01:45 <afed> fabianhjr: there isn't a 2
  78 2011-01-06 02:01:58 <fabianhjr> xD
  79 2011-01-06 02:02:05 <fabianhjr> afed: did you disable crossfire?
  80 2011-01-06 02:02:11 <afed> yes
  81 2011-01-06 02:02:15 <afed> and removed the bridges
  82 2011-01-06 02:02:26 <marioxcc> luke-jr: no...
  83 2011-01-06 02:02:31 <luke-jr> yes
  84 2011-01-06 02:02:35 <marioxcc> I was talking about OSs
  85 2011-01-06 02:02:37 <marioxcc> i'm not longer
  86 2011-01-06 02:02:51 <marioxcc> and I wasn't talking about any specific distribution
  87 2011-01-06 02:02:53 <luke-jr> …
  88 2011-01-06 02:03:20 <luke-jr> [16:33:16] <marioxcc> i think there is a debian which uses GNU Hurd rather than linux
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  97 2011-01-06 02:24:22 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
  98 2011-01-06 02:24:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101233 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1582 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 12 hours, 14 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17084.61657186
  99 2011-01-06 02:25:15 duck1123 has joined
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 118 2011-01-06 03:39:46 <marioxcc> hello
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 135 2011-01-06 05:59:34 <lucky> http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2011/01/05/bc-casino-chips-gangsters.html
 136 2011-01-06 06:00:04 <lucky> "$8 million in unexplained transactions is [...] unacceptable [...]"
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 145 2011-01-06 07:22:47 chaord has joined
 146 2011-01-06 07:23:22 <chaord> hi guys...I'm not in the dev forum too often, so I'm sorry if this has already been discussed
 147 2011-01-06 07:23:49 <chaord> is there an implementation of a javascript (browser based) miner yet that anyone knows of?
 148 2011-01-06 07:24:52 <chaord> so joining a cooperative mining pool would be as easy as pointing your browser to "http://myminingpool.com" and putting in a bitcoin address to send rewards to
 149 2011-01-06 07:26:01 <chaord> obviously a browser miner won't be able to compete with GPU and such, but spread over a ton of browsers it might (I'm really not sure)
 150 2011-01-06 07:28:13 <OneFixt> chaord: It's on my (long) to-do list.  Not sure how extensively it's been discussed, but it's definitely worth a try.
 151 2011-01-06 07:28:57 <chaord> OneFixt: yah..I mean I'm much more interested in building the bitcoin economy organically....but a web-based miner would be nice for the curb appeal to new users
 152 2011-01-06 07:29:16 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 153 2011-01-06 07:29:32 <OneFixt> chaord: absolutely
 154 2011-01-06 07:29:41 <chaord> OneFixt: one thing I thought of as a potential downside...
 155 2011-01-06 07:30:17 <chaord> i know that when javascript on my browser seems to be hogging too many resources, the browser pops up a "warning" about the script or locks up the window
 156 2011-01-06 07:30:46 <OneFixt> yeah, a good web miner won't be trivial
 157 2011-01-06 07:31:05 <chaord> yah...it'd probably be super slow
 158 2011-01-06 07:31:12 <OneFixt> yep
 159 2011-01-06 07:31:12 <chaord> or only crunch for 10s at a time or something
 160 2011-01-06 07:32:14 <chaord> ok, well it was just a thought....I'll move that one way down on my todo list too ;)
 161 2011-01-06 07:33:19 <OneFixt> =)
 162 2011-01-06 07:34:12 <lucky> I'm entirely unsure how fast such a thing would be.
 163 2011-01-06 07:34:19 <lucky> And you'd have to run it long enough to find a block
 164 2011-01-06 07:34:31 <lucky> which even on my 6000 khash/s GPU miner is like every 10 minutes.
 165 2011-01-06 07:34:38 <chaord> yah...well it would be for cooperative mining
 166 2011-01-06 07:34:42 <lucky> That's my point
 167 2011-01-06 07:35:05 <lucky> my GPU would take *months* to find a non-pooled result
 168 2011-01-06 07:35:15 <chaord> right
 169 2011-01-06 07:35:17 <lucky> on average.
 170 2011-01-06 07:35:28 <theymos> Metahash pooled mining would work better.
 171 2011-01-06 07:35:34 <lfm> frankly i dont see how javascript would be any use for mining
 172 2011-01-06 07:35:48 <lucky> If Javascript does like 200 khash/s (optimistic imo) on average hardware with an average browser
 173 2011-01-06 07:35:56 <chaord> yah...me neither...unless you had many thousands of clients
 174 2011-01-06 07:35:57 <lucky> then you're looking at something like an average of 2 - 3 hours for each share
 175 2011-01-06 07:36:26 <lucky> (with pooled mining)
 176 2011-01-06 07:36:31 <chaord> but at many thousands of clients your server costs and such would probably start to counteract what you're doing
 177 2011-01-06 07:36:42 <lfm> you could browse all year and earn a penny or two
 178 2011-01-06 07:36:47 <lucky> You just want something to open in a tab at the library, don't you?
 179 2011-01-06 07:36:58 <chaord> haha...pretty much
 180 2011-01-06 07:37:01 <lucky> A Java applet might make more sense for that purpose.
 181 2011-01-06 07:37:06 <lucky> Java is far, far faster.
 182 2011-01-06 07:37:14 <chaord> yah...i was thinking applet might work
 183 2011-01-06 07:37:34 <chaord> it's not really for me....i was thinking more as a "intro to mining" for mainstreamers
 184 2011-01-06 07:37:35 <lucky> and natively multithreaded for modern hardware
 185 2011-01-06 07:38:00 <chaord> or some way to allow your "neighborhood geek" to set up a pooled mining site
 186 2011-01-06 07:38:13 <chaord> just to add strength to the network
 187 2011-01-06 07:38:14 <lucky> imo, i think everything that emphasizes "mining" is a terrible disservice to bitcoin.
 188 2011-01-06 07:38:23 <lfm> chaord the C cpuminer is prolly your best bet for a simple intro to m,ining
 189 2011-01-06 07:38:34 <lucky> Easily 50% of people entirely forget the point is not to "mine money" but to use it to actually carry out transactions.
 190 2011-01-06 07:38:55 <chaord> yah...I generally think that mining is completely overrated
 191 2011-01-06 07:39:04 <chaord> necessary, but overrated
 192 2011-01-06 07:39:17 <chaord> exactly...I couldn't agree more with you
 193 2011-01-06 07:39:19 <lucky> It seems ecologically wasteful and almost silly to have people buying GPUs to burn electricity just to allow them to capture more of the mining marketshare, the network would adjust and be just as fine if we all ran hash generation on one core on average CPUs in the background.
 194 2011-01-06 07:39:44 <chaord> yeah...which actually, as I have talked about bitcoin with other "alternative currency experts" they end up focusing on the mining aspect
 195 2011-01-06 07:40:21 <chaord> and it's quite annoying....they can't seem to get past the "arbitrariness" that is bitcoin's mining/reward structure
 196 2011-01-06 07:40:39 <lucky> and in almost all cases it's not profitable anyway
 197 2011-01-06 07:40:44 <chaord> yep
 198 2011-01-06 07:41:23 <lucky> *maybe* if you lived in Iceland with nearly free electricity and heat your home with electricity anyway and you found a dumpster full of discarded CUDA processors
 199 2011-01-06 07:41:27 <chaord> if people weren't self interested, we could theoretically all be happy campers having each town run one node on an old x486 if we really wanted to, haha
 200 2011-01-06 07:41:38 <lucky> yes, pretty much.
 201 2011-01-06 07:41:54 <chaord> but we digress...since that is not reality ;)
 202 2011-01-06 07:42:00 <lfm> lucky CUDA processors are wrong for bitcoin.
 203 2011-01-06 07:42:12 <lucky> lfm, fine, wrong term :P
 204 2011-01-06 07:42:22 <lucky> a bunch of *ATI* cards
 205 2011-01-06 07:42:23 <chaord> yah...i'm not even familiar with CUDA
 206 2011-01-06 07:42:24 <wumpus> then one person with a GPU could take over the network :)
 207 2011-01-06 07:42:42 <lucky> wumpus, from what i've heard, half a dozen people already have.
 208 2011-01-06 07:42:53 * lucky shrugs
 209 2011-01-06 07:43:08 <wumpus> yeah but I mean in the case people would only use their old 486 for mining
 210 2011-01-06 07:43:15 <lfm> theres hundreds of people mining in the pools
 211 2011-01-06 07:43:28 <wumpus> the strength of the network depends on the amount of processing power
 212 2011-01-06 07:43:49 <lucky> aye, the pools seem to be a nice offset, and a few of the "big shots" have recently connected to Slush's network
 213 2011-01-06 07:43:53 <chaord> wumpus: yah...i was saying 486 would work if, and only if, people could set aside self-interest ;)
 214 2011-01-06 07:43:55 <lucky> it's averaging 7000 mhash/s
 215 2011-01-06 07:44:20 <lucky> it's not likely in their own self-interest anyway :p it's the delusion of "free money"
 216 2011-01-06 07:44:29 <chaord> haha, correct
 217 2011-01-06 07:44:47 <wumpus> yes a typical tragedy of the commons problem
 218 2011-01-06 07:45:01 <lfm> chaord you really think people could set aside self interest when were talking about money?
 219 2011-01-06 07:45:04 <theymos> Pools still put all of the pool's power into the hands of the pool maintainer. Not much different than a person with a bunch of GPUs.
 220 2011-01-06 07:45:07 <chaord> well, yes and no...it does strengthen the network, regardless
 221 2011-01-06 07:45:24 <lucky> theymos, only if said person were to commit fraud and it were to be undetected
 222 2011-01-06 07:45:35 <chaord> but overall, i agree....mining is definitely not the way for most people to become bitzillionaires
 223 2011-01-06 07:45:56 <lucky> meh, none of this really damages bitcoin tremendously, and as it grows i suspect cornering a significant share of generation will become increasingly difficult and generation will be come a true lottery
 224 2011-01-06 07:46:08 <chaord> agreed
 225 2011-01-06 07:46:09 <lucky> but the detraction from the core intention of actually using it as a currency miffs me.
 226 2011-01-06 07:46:19 <wumpus> which will hopefully make people forget about generation completely
 227 2011-01-06 07:46:24 <chaord> yes! it's really annoying
 228 2011-01-06 07:46:26 <wumpus> it's only a few coins anyway
 229 2011-01-06 07:46:45 <lucky> actually i wonder if the economy is perpetually deflationary
 230 2011-01-06 07:47:04 <wumpus> probably not, it'll have bubbles and busts like anything
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 232 2011-01-06 07:47:14 <lucky> then... well, when 0.001 BTC is an average worker's yearly wage... "OMFG I GENERATED.... *heart attack and death*"
 233 2011-01-06 07:47:22 <kiba> lucky: as long we don't reverse growth and continue growing, it's deflationary
 234 2011-01-06 07:47:28 <chaord> yah...long term, hopefully it will be deflationary....but short-term I think it can go either way
 235 2011-01-06 07:47:35 <kiba> lucky: you have to take into consideration when that will happen
 236 2011-01-06 07:47:38 <lucky> kiba, aye I think so as well.
 237 2011-01-06 07:48:51 <chaord> lucky: when 0.001 BTC is an average worker's yearly wage, we are all going to be visiting each other on our private islands and having a grand time
 238 2011-01-06 07:48:56 <lucky> true
 239 2011-01-06 07:48:59 * lucky pets his 16 BTC
 240 2011-01-06 07:49:10 <chaord> haha
 241 2011-01-06 07:49:37 slush has joined
 242 2011-01-06 07:49:59 <lucky> I saw madhatter is actually buying Canadian tire money at 2% commission for 1 TCCAD = 3 BTC
 243 2011-01-06 07:50:06 <lucky> i have a whole drawer socked away of that crap
 244 2011-01-06 07:53:51 <lucky> i think that should be a good measure of success to aim at: as popular as canadian tire money :p
 245 2011-01-06 07:56:37 <OneFixt> ;;pool
 246 2011-01-06 07:56:38 <gribble> No fancy GPU farm, and don't want to wait for months for a block gen? Join the mining pool! http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
 247 2011-01-06 07:58:09 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 160000
 248 2011-01-06 07:58:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 160000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 5 days, 1 hour, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds
 249 2011-01-06 08:02:38 chaord has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 253 2011-01-06 08:16:13 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 254 2011-01-06 08:17:48 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
 255 2011-01-06 08:17:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101274 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1541 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 3 hours, 33 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17218.03770014
 256 2011-01-06 08:23:42 <alowm> has anyone charted difficulty over time historically?
 257 2011-01-06 08:25:06 <alowm> it'd be interesting to see how it spiked/lulled after the project received press attention
 258 2011-01-06 08:26:08 <theymos> This is not exactly difficulty, but here's a chart of total network hash/s: http://bayimg.com/fAbMpaAdj
 259 2011-01-06 08:26:39 <alowm> cool, thanks
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 262 2011-01-06 08:27:56 <Sami345> do you have problems with slush mining pool?
 263 2011-01-06 08:28:36 <Sami345> it keeps saying block invalid
 264 2011-01-06 08:28:40 <Sami345> I'll try reboot
 265 2011-01-06 08:38:55 devon_hillard has joined
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 267 2011-01-06 08:43:13 <kartofeln> Sami345, if you're using m0mchil's CPU miner, update it now.
 268 2011-01-06 08:44:00 <Sami345> oh ok
 269 2011-01-06 08:44:17 <Sami345> bug?
 270 2011-01-06 08:44:19 <AAA_awright> Someone needs a paper currency redeemable in BTC
 271 2011-01-06 08:44:39 <AAA_awright> >_>
 272 2011-01-06 08:44:40 <AAA_awright> ^_^
 273 2011-01-06 08:45:22 <AAA_awright> I can't imagine this holds up if there were some major catastrophe... It's so strange
 274 2011-01-06 08:46:09 <Sami345> kartofeln, bug in mienr or something?
 275 2011-01-06 08:46:12 <Sami345> *mner
 276 2011-01-06 08:46:16 <Sami345> **miner
 277 2011-01-06 08:46:40 <kartofeln> presumably. don't know the details, but the latest commit is doing some small modifications to a timestamp field.
 278 2011-01-06 08:48:02 <Sami345> lol
 279 2011-01-06 08:48:25 <Sami345> I added -v -w 128 -f 30
 280 2011-01-06 08:48:30 <lucky> AAA_awright, that's venturing into bank territory.
 281 2011-01-06 08:48:35 <lucky> It's possible but i can't see it as being secure
 282 2011-01-06 08:48:38 <Sami345> from 140 Mhash/s -> 160 Mhash/s
 283 2011-01-06 08:48:57 <AAA_awright> lucky: I can imagine the regulators getting anxious over that
 284 2011-01-06 08:48:59 <kartofeln> hulu is killing my hashing rate :'(
 285 2011-01-06 08:49:03 <AAA_awright> Fresh meat
 286 2011-01-06 08:50:59 * lucky starts issuing bitcoin scrip, backed by ME :D
 287 2011-01-06 08:51:00 <Sami345> now my miner does better than wikipage says \o/
 288 2011-01-06 08:51:29 <lucky> Just deposit your bitcoins into my account, and I'll issue you bitcash, and then you can totally trust that they're redeemable at any time *nod*
 289 2011-01-06 08:52:47 <kartofeln> Sami, what GPU are you on?
 290 2011-01-06 08:53:40 <lucky> brilliant idea!
 291 2011-01-06 08:53:50 <lucky> use qcodes + hashes to make currency verifiable
 292 2011-01-06 08:54:10 <lucky> poof, solves counterfeiting for the mostpart.
 293 2011-01-06 08:54:15 <kartofeln> verifiable how?
 294 2011-01-06 08:54:35 <lucky> oh wait no that totally wouldn'twork
 295 2011-01-06 08:54:38 * lucky goes back to the drawing board
 296 2011-01-06 08:56:11 <Sami345> My balance is 21.66 BTC :)
 297 2011-01-06 08:56:28 <lucky> the problem with anyone issuing a paper bitcoin currency is that counterfeiting would be immediate, and utterly brutal.
 298 2011-01-06 08:56:53 <Sami345> kartofeln, HD5770
 299 2011-01-06 08:56:58 <devon_hillard> strictly speaking, bitcoins are not money, they are secure tokens
 300 2011-01-06 08:57:10 <kartofeln> neat. exactly my card as well.. I'll try your settings.
 301 2011-01-06 08:57:20 <devon_hillard> they don't need 'confidence' to back them, it's about maths
 302 2011-01-06 08:57:45 <devon_hillard> secure algorithms and uninvertible functions
 303 2011-01-06 08:57:54 <devon_hillard> or hard to invert, at least
 304 2011-01-06 08:57:57 <lucky> devon_hillard, true, but if no one wants them, they're worthless ;p
 305 2011-01-06 08:58:10 <lfm> the math is the basis of the trust
 306 2011-01-06 08:58:13 <Sami345> the best way to make bitcoin currency would be barcode with account priv + pub key with the money in it
 307 2011-01-06 08:58:15 <AAA_awright> devon_hillard: Strictly speaking, they are a money, because they are a medium of intermediate exchange
 308 2011-01-06 08:58:17 <devon_hillard> lucky: they have value in being provable secure and anonymous
 309 2011-01-06 08:58:22 <Sami345> I mean paper money
 310 2011-01-06 08:58:34 <Sami345> that way you could even print bitcoin money yourself
 311 2011-01-06 08:58:48 <lucky> the math is the basis that you know bitcoins are not counterfeit, reversible, etc. etc.
 312 2011-01-06 08:58:50 <Sami345> (taking money from your account)
 313 2011-01-06 08:58:57 <lucky> but any actual value of bitcoins will come solely for what you can trade them for.
 314 2011-01-06 08:59:20 <lucky> if no one in the world will trade anything for your half a million bitcoins, they're worthless.
 315 2011-01-06 08:59:24 <lfm> and you know that the issuer isnt gonna flood the market unexpectedly
 316 2011-01-06 08:59:30 <lucky> lfm, aye.
 317 2011-01-06 09:01:40 <devon_hillard> the only thing that can destroy confidence in bitcoins would be some proof that the math underpinnings are flawed
 318 2011-01-06 09:02:14 <lfm> devon well I think there may be some other ways
 319 2011-01-06 09:02:14 <devon_hillard> eg. if someone manages to print a ridiculous ammount of BTC for very little computational resources
 320 2011-01-06 09:02:55 <devon_hillard> lfm: like it being declared illegal?
 321 2011-01-06 09:03:14 <lucky> i suspect if bitcoins were declared illegal in a number of countries their exchange value would plummet
 322 2011-01-06 09:03:18 <theymos> The incentives might be wrong, and not enough people will generate.
 323 2011-01-06 09:03:33 <lfm> demon not sure if that would be good or bad really
 324 2011-01-06 09:04:01 <devon_hillard> is the bitcoin irc server using SSL?
 325 2011-01-06 09:04:10 <theymos> No.
 326 2011-01-06 09:04:11 <lucky> Freenode has the option for SSL
 327 2011-01-06 09:04:20 <lucky> but not by default.
 328 2011-01-06 09:04:50 <theymos> The network will need "backbone" entities to carry the disk/network burden. If no one is a backbone, then the network will fail.
 329 2011-01-06 09:05:13 <devon_hillard> still, even with SSL, the government can force Verizon to provide backdoors in their certification process
 330 2011-01-06 09:05:20 <lfm> theymos you sure of that?
 331 2011-01-06 09:05:50 <lucky> on the other hand, i could imagine BTC illegality could drive their value up paradoxically, it'd probably shrink the number of sellers of non-BTC currencies, and drive demand (everyone wanting to get their money out of BTCs)
 332 2011-01-06 09:05:55 <lucky> i suspect that would be short-term though.
 333 2011-01-06 09:06:20 RazielZ has joined
 334 2011-01-06 09:06:46 <lfm> lucky ya declaring it illegal could just turn out to be the sort of publicity to take it over the top
 335 2011-01-06 09:06:59 altamic has joined
 336 2011-01-06 09:07:26 <theymos> lfm: Full network nodes need to store all of the unspent transactions and they need to receive every block and every transaction. I can't see a Visa-level Bitcoin network surviving without some backbone entities.
 337 2011-01-06 09:07:31 <lucky> I still don't think BTC itself will likely be declared illegal in most Western countries... I think they'll go after exchangers.
 338 2011-01-06 09:08:13 <devon_hillard> it's much safer to "move" BTC than cash
 339 2011-01-06 09:08:29 <lucky> theymos, there was some speculation on the forums about how much bandwidth and disk space would ber equired to process something like VISA's level of transactions per second, it wasn't all that shocking, in the thousands of dollars a month.
 340 2011-01-06 09:08:38 <devon_hillard> but of course, a government can also order local ISPs to shut down temporarily
 341 2011-01-06 09:08:39 <lfm> theymos seems to me ordinary pcs are powerful enuf to run full nodes
 342 2011-01-06 09:09:39 <lucky> devon_hillard, well, some.  that'd be legally very problematic here.
 343 2011-01-06 09:10:03 <lucky> of course things that step on the toes of those invested in the current economic system tend to get special legal expediency, so who knows.
 344 2011-01-06 09:10:34 <theymos> lfm: That calculation didn't take into account required diskspace. All of those transactions have to be stored until they are spent. And the required network usage is *way* out of the league of what is available to consumers.
 345 2011-01-06 09:10:41 <devon_hillard> other than the central IRC servers, are there any other centralized resources?
 346 2011-01-06 09:10:46 <lucky> no.
 347 2011-01-06 09:11:08 <lucky> although almost all BTC-nonBTC exchange takes place through maybe 2 central websites and a couple of loose coalitions hosted on IRC.
 348 2011-01-06 09:11:11 <devon_hillard> is there a contingency in place for an attack on IRC?
 349 2011-01-06 09:11:24 <lucky> why would that matter?
 350 2011-01-06 09:11:33 <lucky> it would have little impact on bitcoin, other than affecting this channel.
 351 2011-01-06 09:11:54 <devon_hillard> not this channel
 352 2011-01-06 09:12:02 joe_1 has joined
 353 2011-01-06 09:12:24 <lucky> then ... what?
 354 2011-01-06 09:13:35 <devon_hillard> there is a big IRC server holding all currently active network nodes, right?
 355 2011-01-06 09:13:39 <lucky> no
 356 2011-01-06 09:13:47 <devon_hillard> or was there?
 357 2011-01-06 09:13:57 <lucky> bitcoin used to get a list of hosts to connect to via IRC
 358 2011-01-06 09:14:06 <lfm> devon there are lots of alternatives to the irc channel
 359 2011-01-06 09:14:09 <lucky> that's what all those odd character name clients in #bitcoin are
 360 2011-01-06 09:14:16 <lucky> people still running old oooold versions of the client
 361 2011-01-06 09:14:16 <theymos> There are ~20 built-in seednodes in case IRC goes down. If those all go down, there's a fallback_nodes page on the wiki. If that goes down, Satoshi can issue an alert to all Bitcoin clients informing people to download a new seednode list.
 362 2011-01-06 09:14:41 <devon_hillard> ah, ok
 363 2011-01-06 09:14:51 <theymos> Bitcoin still connects to irc.lfnet.org as a main bootstrap source.
 364 2011-01-06 09:15:41 <devon_hillard> I remember an irc channel with over 1K people in it, with hashed names
 365 2011-01-06 09:15:51 <devon_hillard> forget the server address
 366 2011-01-06 09:16:02 <alowm> there's a few in #bitcoin still
 367 2011-01-06 09:16:21 <theymos> devon_hillard: It's #bitcoin on irc.lfnet.org
 368 2011-01-06 09:16:29 <lfm> and there isnt just one irc server of course
 369 2011-01-06 09:16:50 <theymos> Bitcoin connects to one hardcoded IP address.
 370 2011-01-06 09:17:17 <lucky> anyway such a thing would disrupt some people trying to run their clients who don't know a peer to connect to
 371 2011-01-06 09:17:20 <lucky> but would not kill bitcoin
 372 2011-01-06 09:18:32 <kartofeln> so.. when people say bitcoin is a beta... does it imply bitcoins might become obsolete as a gamma or production version is ushered?
 373 2011-01-06 09:18:44 <devon_hillard> theymos: yes, that was the one
 374 2011-01-06 09:20:39 <devon_hillard> kartofeln: they would probably still be valuable unless the underlying algorithms are insecure
 375 2011-01-06 09:21:18 <kartofeln> I wonder. no matter how sound the algorithm, even the rumor of a replacement system would drive the value down considerably.
 376 2011-01-06 09:22:00 <devon_hillard> bitcoin 2.0 could work to support the 1.0 infrastructure as well
 377 2011-01-06 09:33:30 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 378 2011-01-06 09:36:32 <alowm> or even provide a translation layer (think IPv4<->6 gateways) or conversion service if feasible
 379 2011-01-06 09:38:40 <lucky> haha i should put up sales of my old banknotes on biddingpond
 380 2011-01-06 09:38:50 <lucky> there's something poetic about selling physical banknotes with bitcoins.
 381 2011-01-06 09:44:39 altamic has left ()
 382 2011-01-06 09:44:50 altamic has joined
 383 2011-01-06 09:46:18 <helmut> altamic: what is your question?
 384 2011-01-06 09:47:12 <altamic> question: on http://a.yfrog.com/img640/6545/az6.png you can see a vesion message. You can see message start, command, message size and checksum marked by a rectangle
 385 2011-01-06 09:47:27 <altamic> I wonder where variable data starts
 386 2011-01-06 09:48:33 <helmut> obviously after the checksum
 387 2011-01-06 09:49:21 <helmut> wait. actually that depends on the protocol version.
 388 2011-01-06 09:50:35 <helmut> cause in earlier versions there was no checksum. since the version message is part of the version handshake it normally uses the old form without a checksum
 389 2011-01-06 09:51:22 <altamic> so I need to check the protocol version and decide how to parse
 390 2011-01-06 09:51:27 <helmut> yes
 391 2011-01-06 09:51:48 <altamic> thank you
 392 2011-01-06 09:51:59 <helmut> what language do you use?
 393 2011-01-06 09:52:18 <altamic> ruby
 394 2011-01-06 09:53:49 <helmut> hmm. the most promising implementations I've seen so far were all python
 395 2011-01-06 09:56:38 ebel has joined
 396 2011-01-06 09:58:21 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 397 2011-01-06 10:00:42 altamic has joined
 398 2011-01-06 10:03:35 <joe_1> kartofeln: it would only be bad if the replacement system did not preserve the current ownership of bitcoins
 399 2011-01-06 10:03:45 <kartofeln> yeah
 400 2011-01-06 10:04:24 <joe_1> and even then, it wouldn't be bad because the original bitcoin would have a longer chain. and longer chain = legitimacy
 401 2011-01-06 10:04:40 <kartofeln> hmm. my GPU is running at 400MHz instead of the usual 850Mhz.. anything obvious that could cause that?
 402 2011-01-06 10:04:58 <ArtForz> whats the temp?
 403 2011-01-06 10:05:00 <kartofeln> not sure if the length of the chain matter to the people figuring out how much value they want to put on it
 404 2011-01-06 10:05:02 <kartofeln> 53
 405 2011-01-06 10:05:08 <kartofeln> it was at 76 for most of yesterday
 406 2011-01-06 10:05:12 <ArtForz> thats... weird
 407 2011-01-06 10:05:23 <ArtForz> tried restarting the miner?
 408 2011-01-06 10:05:34 <joe_1> history of use is another thing that bitcoin would have and the new one wouldn't
 409 2011-01-06 10:05:56 Diablo-D3 has joined
 410 2011-01-06 10:07:17 <kartofeln> yeah.. wondering if I should let the GPU take a break or get a GPU clock tool and whip it into shape.
 411 2011-01-06 10:07:55 <ArtForz> well, it certainly sounds like something is off
 412 2011-01-06 10:08:54 <ArtForz> 400MHz is idle clock on some cards... so is the miner still actually dfoing anything?
 413 2011-01-06 10:09:11 <kartofeln> yeah.. still getting 72Mhash, but that's basically half of its normal throughput.
 414 2011-01-06 10:09:25 <kartofeln> I was getting that for a while, but I was also watching some full screen video, so it didn't seem too crazy.
 415 2011-01-06 10:09:38 <ArtForz> could be a driver fuckup
 416 2011-01-06 10:10:27 <ArtForz> windows or linux?
 417 2011-01-06 10:10:38 <kartofeln> windows.. vista x64 ati hd radeon 5770
 418 2011-01-06 10:10:45 <ArtForz> yeah, sounds like driver fuckup
 419 2011-01-06 10:11:01 <kartofeln> I tried downloading an "AMD gpu clock tool" thingy, but it crashed on start.
 420 2011-01-06 10:11:11 <kartofeln> woe is me, and stuff.
 421 2011-01-06 10:11:15 <ArtForz> might have something to do with video playback
 422 2011-01-06 10:11:35 <joe_1> did u restart the machine
 423 2011-01-06 10:11:38 <kartofeln> yeah.. maybe I should kill a few processes.
 424 2011-01-06 10:11:43 <kartofeln> no.. I hate restarting.
 425 2011-01-06 10:11:50 <ArtForz> real idle 2D clock is 150MHz, 400MHz is usually used for dualhead 2D and video playback
 426 2011-01-06 10:11:56 <joe_1> me to but
 427 2011-01-06 10:12:04 <ArtForz> *on 5770
 428 2011-01-06 10:12:07 <kartofeln> oh woot
 429 2011-01-06 10:12:16 <kartofeln> killed chrome, hash perf shot up right away
 430 2011-01-06 10:12:22 <ArtForz> so my guess, your driver still thinks you're playing video ...
 431 2011-01-06 10:12:23 <kartofeln> I guess it was still holding to something.
 432 2011-01-06 10:12:27 <kartofeln> yup
 433 2011-01-06 10:12:56 <joe_1> firefox
 434 2011-01-06 10:13:01 <ArtForz> flash
 435 2011-01-06 10:13:19 <kartofeln> yeah.. flash definitely had something to do with it.
 436 2011-01-06 10:13:29 <ArtForz> iirc theres a registry setting to stop the ati driver from doing that
 437 2011-01-06 10:13:54 <kartofeln> darn. Sami wasn't kidding.. -v -w 128 -f 30 really does crunch more hashes on this GPU.
 438 2011-01-06 10:14:10 <ArtForz> weird, I always got best reults with -w 64 on 5770
 439 2011-01-06 10:14:21 <ArtForz> and -f really_low
 440 2011-01-06 10:14:38 <ArtForz> lags like hell, but hashes fast
 441 2011-01-06 10:14:38 <kartofeln> -w 128 give 160Mhash, -w 64 tops at 152
 442 2011-01-06 10:14:59 <Diablo-D3> why are you using -f 30?
 443 2011-01-06 10:15:02 <kartofeln> I don't get any lag.
 444 2011-01-06 10:15:06 <Diablo-D3> that will fuck your desktop performance over
 445 2011-01-06 10:15:07 <kartofeln> koz Sami said so.. :-/
 446 2011-01-06 10:15:13 <ArtForz> but then my miner uses a different kernel, so all bets are off
 447 2011-01-06 10:15:14 <kartofeln> I don't even know what it's supposed to do :'(
 448 2011-01-06 10:15:18 <Diablo-D3> it defaults at 60, and everyone uses 120 or 180
 449 2011-01-06 10:15:21 <ArtForz> -f = framerate
 450 2011-01-06 10:15:30 <ArtForz> anything under 120 usually = laggy desktop
 451 2011-01-06 10:15:38 <joe_1> can someone buy me a radeon so i can join the fun
 452 2011-01-06 10:15:41 <kartofeln> oh yeah.. dragging big windows is a wee bit sluggish now.
 453 2011-01-06 10:15:42 <Diablo-D3> I should just default to 180 really
 454 2011-01-06 10:15:56 <Diablo-D3> it can flush all three requests before having to draw 2D shit
 455 2011-01-06 10:16:00 <AAA_awright> Has any investment actually paid off?
 456 2011-01-06 10:16:05 <ArtForz> yup
 457 2011-01-06 10:16:11 <AAA_awright> In the graphics cards?
 458 2011-01-06 10:16:18 <ArtForz> yup
 459 2011-01-06 10:16:20 <AAA_awright> That's twisted
 460 2011-01-06 10:16:31 <joe_1> i think everyone has soaked up all the arbitrage by now, though.
 461 2011-01-06 10:16:37 <ArtForz> not really
 462 2011-01-06 10:16:52 <ArtForz> problem is, no one knows how many people are getting into the game
 463 2011-01-06 10:17:07 <ArtForz> = investing in GPUs now is kinda risky
 464 2011-01-06 10:17:25 <Diablo-D3> well
 465 2011-01-06 10:17:28 <Diablo-D3> just buying ONE is fine
 466 2011-01-06 10:17:34 <Diablo-D3> you needed to upgrade anyhow
 467 2011-01-06 10:17:52 <kartofeln> well.. I can generate about 10 btc a day with my card.. so 3 bucks a day right now.. cheapest ati hd 5770 is $160
 468 2011-01-06 10:17:59 <joe_1> what your going to start seeing is botnets will start gpu mining
 469 2011-01-06 10:18:05 <ArtForz> I doubt it
 470 2011-01-06 10:18:29 <ArtForz> gpu mining is a damn fast way to lose zombies
 471 2011-01-06 10:18:33 <kartofeln> if the global computation power stayed steady for 2 months, you'd make your money back.. it's unlikely though.
 472 2011-01-06 10:18:41 <joe_1> but why would u lose them
 473 2011-01-06 10:19:03 <joe_1> cant u just dial the numbers down a little
 474 2011-01-06 10:19:16 <kartofeln> as far as bitcoin's health is concerned, anything that increase the overall computation power of the network is a good thing. makes gaming that much harder.
 475 2011-01-06 10:19:21 <ArtForz> yep
 476 2011-01-06 10:19:32 <ArtForz> except a cheater getting >50% of total hash power
 477 2011-01-06 10:19:56 <AAA_awright> Anyone think the NSA could go after it?
 478 2011-01-06 10:20:03 <kartofeln> yes.
 479 2011-01-06 10:20:09 <ArtForz> easily
 480 2011-01-06 10:20:10 <Diablo-D3> the nsa is too busy trying to crack encrypted child porn
 481 2011-01-06 10:20:13 <da2ce7> we need to get to the point where a cheater needs an invetment of at least 50% of the bitcoin market CAP...
 482 2011-01-06 10:20:18 <da2ce7> untill then we are insecure.
 483 2011-01-06 10:20:26 <ArtForz> right now you'd need about 200 5970s, 250 to be sure
 484 2011-01-06 10:20:52 <ArtForz> add in the rest of the system, housing, ... still < $200k
 485 2011-01-06 10:21:11 <kartofeln> how many 5970 can you cram on one mobo?
 486 2011-01-06 10:21:17 <ArtForz> at least 4
 487 2011-01-06 10:21:24 <ArtForz> probably 8
 488 2011-01-06 10:21:26 <da2ce7> we need much much more investment in hardware.
 489 2011-01-06 10:21:34 <joe_1> i'm about to buy some
 490 2011-01-06 10:21:50 <kartofeln> it's kinda nifty how much raw power you can stack in a plain desktop tower box  nowadays.
 491 2011-01-06 10:21:56 <joe_1> once i get em im gonna need a somebody to show me what to plug in where
 492 2011-01-06 10:22:02 <ArtForz> well, I got 20Gh/s of custom chips coming in in february
 493 2011-01-06 10:22:07 <da2ce7> I keep at 50-50% ratio.  between coins I generate, and coins I buy.
 494 2011-01-06 10:22:14 <ArtForz> beats 5970 by a factor of >10 on hash/W
 495 2011-01-06 10:22:33 <kartofeln> art, that's about 20 to 25% of the total network capacity isn't it?
 496 2011-01-06 10:22:42 <ArtForz> more like 15% of current network
 497 2011-01-06 10:22:57 <ArtForz> we're ~125Gh/s currently
 498 2011-01-06 10:23:15 <ArtForz> and I doubt that number is gonna go down any time soon
 499 2011-01-06 10:23:20 <kartofeln> darn. I thought we were a bit lower. is there an easy formula to go from difficulty level to that number?
 500 2011-01-06 10:23:24 <ArtForz> yes
 501 2011-01-06 10:23:29 <ArtForz> difficulty * 2**32 / 600
 502 2011-01-06 10:23:53 <AAA_awright> Is there any research into how much computing power the NSA has? Though if they don't go after domestic cases I can imagine it would be hard to get an estimate
 503 2011-01-06 10:24:06 <ArtForz> "a shitload" is a good estimate
 504 2011-01-06 10:24:12 <kartofeln> AAA_awright: by definition, anybody who knows can't talk about it.
 505 2011-01-06 10:24:25 <AAA_awright> What definition?
 506 2011-01-06 10:24:49 <kartofeln> well, unless they feel like getting thrown in the brig in solitary for a months without trial.
 507 2011-01-06 10:25:03 <lfm> aaa_awright its a SECRET of course. if you knew you couldnt tell anyone
 508 2011-01-06 10:25:10 <da2ce7> the only real question is how wide is their quantum computers are...
 509 2011-01-06 10:25:10 <joe_1> i dont know- i think it's publicly known how many flops their supercomputer does
 510 2011-01-06 10:25:12 <AAA_awright> I thought it was classified
 511 2011-01-06 10:25:38 <kartofeln> I'd be a little surprised if they had working useful quantum computers already.
 512 2011-01-06 10:25:40 <kartofeln> but who nkows.
 513 2011-01-06 10:25:59 <ArtForz> yeah, I doubt it
 514 2011-01-06 10:26:45 <lfm> ya, they can factor 10 bit numbers now!
 515 2011-01-06 10:26:52 <kartofeln> the real threat from NSA-type things, beside their vast pockets to buy large computers, is that they hire a lot of smart mathematician types.
 516 2011-01-06 10:26:57 <ArtForz> yep
 517 2011-01-06 10:27:14 <ArtForz> I'd guess most of their boxes are busy correlating data, not cracking crypto
 518 2011-01-06 10:27:16 <Diablo-D3> hurrrr
 519 2011-01-06 10:27:26 <Diablo-D3> where do I get drugs like that
 520 2011-01-06 10:27:29 <Diablo-D3> [05:20:35] <AAA_awright> Is there any research into how much computing power the NSA has? Though if they don't go after domestic cases I can imagine it would be hard to get an estimate
 521 2011-01-06 10:27:41 <Diablo-D3> they have the 4 largest super computers on the top 500 list
 522 2011-01-06 10:27:50 <ArtForz> errr... no
 523 2011-01-06 10:27:53 <Diablo-D3> #0, #-1, #-2, and #-3 respectively.
 524 2011-01-06 10:28:10 <AAA_awright> Uh since when
 525 2011-01-06 10:28:12 <ArtForz> oh, the top -5 list you mean
 526 2011-01-06 10:28:20 <AAA_awright> -5?
 527 2011-01-06 10:28:21 <da2ce7> I suppose you could use quite narrow quantum computer coupled with a massive cypto, a 10-bit quantum could remove 10-bit of search space.
 528 2011-01-06 10:28:23 <Diablo-D3> the top "not allowed to tell you about them" list
 529 2011-01-06 10:28:29 <AAA_awright> hah
 530 2011-01-06 10:28:56 <Diablo-D3> theres about 10 computers in the world that are all bigger than that list
 531 2011-01-06 10:29:09 <lfm> the top 500 is rated by flops tho and cryptography  is more fixed point
 532 2011-01-06 10:29:14 <joe_1> satoshi got our back no matter what the nsa wants to do
 533 2011-01-06 10:29:30 <ArtForz> again, I doubt anybody serious is busy cracking crypto
 534 2011-01-06 10:29:30 <Diablo-D3> and walmart could almost be in the top 10, but they dont actually have a single computer
 535 2011-01-06 10:29:33 <Diablo-D3> its just a massive cluster
 536 2011-01-06 10:29:36 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the nsa is
 537 2011-01-06 10:29:39 <Diablo-D3> but not for shit like this
 538 2011-01-06 10:29:46 <Diablo-D3> they're trying to spy on the chinese
 539 2011-01-06 10:30:13 <ArtForz> btw, for raw FLOPS F@H makes top500 look like toys
 540 2011-01-06 10:30:49 <joe_1> who is F@H
 541 2011-01-06 10:30:53 <ArtForz> Folding@Home
 542 2011-01-06 10:30:59 <ArtForz> real crappy interconnect, but crazy raw CPU power
 543 2011-01-06 10:31:24 <AAA_awright> Is Seti@Home still going or what?
 544 2011-01-06 10:31:35 <ArtForz> yeah, they're ~oder of magnitude smaller though
 545 2011-01-06 10:31:45 <ArtForz> *order
 546 2011-01-06 10:32:19 <ArtForz> last time I checked we were about 1/4 S@H in raw FLOPS (well, INTOPS)
 547 2011-01-06 10:32:35 <lfm> seti@home keeps running outa data then they start over
 548 2011-01-06 10:32:53 <da2ce7> artforz, if say AMD was going build a SHA256 chip, on the same process that they use for their CPU's... what order of magnitude of speed are we looking at?
 549 2011-01-06 10:33:13 <ArtForz> crazy fast
 550 2011-01-06 10:33:18 <kartofeln> one hash per cycle? that'd be neat..
 551 2011-01-06 10:33:20 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
 552 2011-01-06 10:33:25 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101293 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1522 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 22 hours, 26 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17381.29964103
 553 2011-01-06 10:33:28 <ArtForz> one hash/cycle is easy
 554 2011-01-06 10:33:48 <kartofeln> is it? you can hardcode all the rounds into one cycle?
 555 2011-01-06 10:33:51 <da2ce7> so maybe 1000 GHash/s
 556 2011-01-06 10:33:51 <lfm> 1140 hashes / cycle
 557 2011-01-06 10:34:22 <ArtForz> 2 fully unrolled sha256 blocks are ~1850 32-bit adders, ~6000 2-input 32 bit logic gates and ~200k FFs
 558 2011-01-06 10:35:08 <UukGoblin> FF = fast fouriers?
 559 2011-01-06 10:35:12 <ArtForz> Flip Flops
 560 2011-01-06 10:35:12 <UukGoblin> flip-flops.
 561 2011-01-06 10:35:23 <UukGoblin> 200k seems quite a lot
 562 2011-01-06 10:35:35 <ArtForz> 6MB L3 = 48M FFs
 563 2011-01-06 10:35:38 <kartofeln> hmm. would that fit on run-of-the-mill FPGA boards?
 564 2011-01-06 10:35:45 <ArtForz> large ones, yes
 565 2011-01-06 10:35:58 <ArtForz> a XC6SLX150 is just a tad too small
 566 2011-01-06 10:36:17 <AAA_awright> FFT is something entirely different I think :)
 567 2011-01-06 10:36:24 <ArtForz> same goes for the fastest in alteras "low cost" family
 568 2011-01-06 10:36:28 <kartofeln> what kind of clocks can FPGAs run at?
 569 2011-01-06 10:36:30 <UukGoblin> AAA_awright, yeah, definitely
 570 2011-01-06 10:36:31 <ArtForz> s/fastest/biggest
 571 2011-01-06 10:36:57 <ArtForz> 250MHz on a Virtex6
 572 2011-01-06 10:37:23 <kartofeln> ah.. that's not a bad speed overall, but not crazy better than a good GPU then.
 573 2011-01-06 10:37:30 <ArtForz> XC6VLX195T can fit 2 full sha256 blocks
 574 2011-01-06 10:37:38 <ArtForz> = one bitcoinhash/clock
 575 2011-01-06 10:38:18 <da2ce7> so how many transistors is a XC6VLX195T equiv to?
 576 2011-01-06 10:38:21 <ArtForz> costs like $2k per chip
 577 2011-01-06 10:38:36 <ArtForz> = not too interesting at 250Mh/s per chip
 578 2011-01-06 10:39:05 <UukGoblin> depends on power consumption also
 579 2011-01-06 10:39:07 <joe_1> how many ghashes can an android phone get
 580 2011-01-06 10:39:18 <da2ce7> well, lets make a bounty and get GF to make some sha256 chips.
 581 2011-01-06 10:39:24 <ArtForz> in this case, not too many
 582 2011-01-06 10:39:30 <UukGoblin> joe_1, G1 does about 50khash
 583 2011-01-06 10:39:35 <ArtForz> FPGA really isnt suited for sha256
 584 2011-01-06 10:39:55 <ArtForz> no real hardware adders
 585 2011-01-06 10:40:18 <da2ce7> so two SHA256 is arround 210k transistors?
 586 2011-01-06 10:40:30 <ArtForz> lets see...
 587 2011-01-06 10:40:35 <ArtForz> more
 588 2011-01-06 10:40:44 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, 250Mhash isn't bad imho... if it takes up to 50W...
 589 2011-01-06 10:41:08 <ArtForz> probably less
 590 2011-01-06 10:41:23 <UukGoblin> outperforms a 5770 then
 591 2011-01-06 10:41:23 <ArtForz> my guess would be ~30-40W
 592 2011-01-06 10:42:09 <ArtForz> one FF is ~6 transistors... logic gate ~4... each adder bit is ~3 gates
 593 2011-01-06 10:42:45 <joe_1> uuk what is a G1
 594 2011-01-06 10:43:27 <kartofeln> first gen android phone.
 595 2011-01-06 10:43:33 <kartofeln> slow as heck compared to current gen.
 596 2011-01-06 10:43:35 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so what are you doing with all these?
 597 2011-01-06 10:43:39 <ArtForz> ~3M transistors for a double-sha256 engine
 598 2011-01-06 10:43:59 <joe_1> well they're coming out with dual core phones now
 599 2011-01-06 10:44:01 <da2ce7> ah, so that is like 1W @ 1ghz.
 600 2011-01-06 10:44:13 <UukGoblin> joe_1, HTC Dream, one of the oldest android devices
 601 2011-01-06 10:44:48 <UukGoblin> it's about 560MHz ARM processor, IIRC not significantly slower than recent 800MHz-1GHz
 602 2011-01-06 10:44:56 <da2ce7> so with current technology we can protentaly make 1GHash/s @ 1 W
 603 2011-01-06 10:45:04 <ArtForz> yeah
 604 2011-01-06 10:45:21 <UukGoblin> the newer ones are mostly superior in terms of RAM
 605 2011-01-06 10:45:32 <ArtForz> well, at least close to it
 606 2011-01-06 10:45:43 <ArtForz> crypto uses a lot more power per transistor than normal stuff
 607 2011-01-06 10:46:02 <UukGoblin> hrm so my 2x 5970 are about 600 times more inefficient than FPGA :-]
 608 2011-01-06 10:46:02 <ArtForz> normally you calculate with ~10% of FFs switching per clock
 609 2011-01-06 10:46:13 <ArtForz> err... nope, more like 5x
 610 2011-01-06 10:46:20 <ArtForz> FPGAs really arent too efficient either
 611 2011-01-06 10:46:35 <UukGoblin> oh, you calculated for an ASIC
 612 2011-01-06 10:46:38 <ArtForz> yep
 613 2011-01-06 10:46:43 <ArtForz> true ASIC @ 45nm
 614 2011-01-06 10:47:03 * UukGoblin nods
 615 2011-01-06 10:47:28 <ArtForz> structured ASIC is worse (you have about as much unused logic as in a FPGA, just not that much capacitive loss on the routing network)
 616 2011-01-06 10:47:51 <ArtForz> for crypto you have ~50% FFs switching per clock
 617 2011-01-06 10:48:56 <ArtForz> which is a nother problem with FPGAs, they aren't designed for that much power usage
 618 2011-01-06 10:49:54 <UukGoblin> hrm
 619 2011-01-06 10:50:29 <UukGoblin> so if you're getting 20Ghash from ASICs... is that around 20 of them?
 620 2011-01-06 10:50:37 <ArtForz> 100
 621 2011-01-06 10:50:48 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you could give me one of them you know
 622 2011-01-06 10:50:53 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt even need to leave your house
 623 2011-01-06 10:50:58 <Diablo-D3> just make it assign coins to me
 624 2011-01-06 10:51:04 <UukGoblin> so they'll do 200Mhash each... guessing one hash per cycle at 200MHz...
 625 2011-01-06 10:51:24 <ArtForz> this is structured ASIC = fixed silicon+poly
 626 2011-01-06 10:51:46 <ArtForz> yep
 627 2011-01-06 10:52:04 <UukGoblin> and how much power? :-]
 628 2011-01-06 10:52:08 <da2ce7> how many watt each?
 629 2011-01-06 10:52:37 <ArtForz> about 12
 630 2011-01-06 10:53:23 <UukGoblin> oh, so unstructured is still a lot better than that
 631 2011-01-06 10:53:27 <ArtForz> yep
 632 2011-01-06 10:53:28 <da2ce7> ooh not bad you are going one whole order of magnitude better than the GPU's/
 633 2011-01-06 10:53:35 <ArtForz> yep
 634 2011-01-06 10:53:41 <ArtForz> that was my design target
 635 2011-01-06 10:53:51 <da2ce7> only 2 more to go/
 636 2011-01-06 10:53:55 <UukGoblin> :-]
 637 2011-01-06 10:54:32 <ArtForz> upping voltage I could get a lot higher clocks, but it'd kill hash/W
 638 2011-01-06 10:55:11 <ArtForz> and my whole power and cooling setup isn't designed for it
 639 2011-01-06 10:55:57 <da2ce7> (somebody from the GF node development team makes a sha256 units for 'testing' on the new node)... lol
 640 2011-01-06 10:56:11 <UukGoblin> GF?
 641 2011-01-06 10:56:16 <ArtForz> GlobalFoundries
 642 2011-01-06 10:57:08 <ArtForz> problem is the crazy setup costs
 643 2011-01-06 10:57:08 <UukGoblin> hahah, I like the quotes around "testing" ;-]
 644 2011-01-06 10:57:34 <da2ce7> suddenly the bitcoin difficulty will go from arround 10K to 1M
 645 2011-01-06 10:57:40 <ArtForz> structured ASIC is cheap because it's only metal layer masks, and shared between customers
 646 2011-01-06 10:58:07 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I just ask for one :<
 647 2011-01-06 10:58:10 <UukGoblin> 'cheap'? ;-]
 648 2011-01-06 10:58:14 <ArtForz> yep
 649 2011-01-06 10:58:27 <ArtForz> only ~$30k in fixed costs
 650 2011-01-06 10:58:42 * UukGoblin collapses
 651 2011-01-06 10:58:43 <da2ce7> can I help invest?
 652 2011-01-06 10:58:46 <sipa> "only"
 653 2011-01-06 10:58:51 <ArtForz> yes, only
 654 2011-01-06 10:59:02 <ArtForz> a full mask set at 55nm is well > $1M
 655 2011-01-06 10:59:36 * Diablo-D3 sends art $5 :<
 656 2011-01-06 10:59:52 <UukGoblin> 21M bitcoins @ $0.30 each is only $6M though
 657 2011-01-06 10:59:58 <UukGoblin> the price would have to go up...
 658 2011-01-06 11:00:14 <theymos> Sneak said he's going to rent a botnet with 300% of the current network's power. I hope that doesn't put all miners out of business.
 659 2011-01-06 11:00:23 <ArtForz> metal masks only at 90nm is order of magnitude cheaper, and having half a dozen different customer designs on one mask set further reduces cost
 660 2011-01-06 11:00:29 * da2ce7 dosn't have that sort of capital sitting arround, yet.
 661 2011-01-06 11:01:05 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 662 2011-01-06 11:01:21 <ArtForz> well, I wish him luck
 663 2011-01-06 11:01:35 <ArtForz> I'm more concerned about the sim unlocking guys
 664 2011-01-06 11:02:13 <UukGoblin> the GSM Subscriber Identity Modules?
 665 2011-01-06 11:02:23 <UukGoblin> why would /they/ be any threat?
 666 2011-01-06 11:02:26 <ArtForz> yup
 667 2011-01-06 11:02:35 <da2ce7> lol, the botnet guys get compition from bitoin.
 668 2011-01-06 11:02:47 <ArtForz> they use lots of GPUs
 669 2011-01-06 11:03:01 <UukGoblin> to crack SIMs?
 670 2011-01-06 11:03:25 <ArtForz> simlock on mobiles
 671 2011-01-06 11:03:46 <ArtForz> http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=45
 672 2011-01-06 11:03:50 <UukGoblin> ah... interesting, I didn't know that
 673 2011-01-06 11:04:32 <ArtForz> thats 52 5970s
 674 2011-01-06 11:04:36 <UukGoblin> fun
 675 2011-01-06 11:04:46 <da2ce7> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD it is really interesting how (almost) all the ristance levels slope down at 37% p.a. ; the rate that new bitcoin are being generated.
 676 2011-01-06 11:04:52 <ArtForz> or about 1/4 current network
 677 2011-01-06 11:05:01 <ArtForz> and thats a single team
 678 2011-01-06 11:05:28 <ArtForz> mining bitcoins would be a good way to make use of idle time on those clusters
 679 2011-01-06 11:06:05 <da2ce7> shit... gpu's are very risky
 680 2011-01-06 11:06:37 <da2ce7> I have taken account for your 20GHash/s, but not annother 100GHhash/s
 681 2011-01-06 11:06:49 <UukGoblin> ah, btw, I'd love to see charts of blocks per hour, and their derivative, compared to the difficulty (and its derivative)
 682 2011-01-06 11:06:59 <UukGoblin> so effectively a more accurate graph of difficulty
 683 2011-01-06 11:07:50 <ArtForz> so... basically the inverse of statistix graphs?
 684 2011-01-06 11:08:04 <UukGoblin> yeah, I guess
 685 2011-01-06 11:08:13 <ArtForz> should be easy
 686 2011-01-06 11:08:15 <UukGoblin> yeah
 687 2011-01-06 11:08:23 <UukGoblin> I can probably set it up on my own
 688 2011-01-06 11:08:42 int0x27h has joined
 689 2011-01-06 11:09:13 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, what's "ristance"?
 690 2011-01-06 11:09:20 <sipa> UukGoblin: http://sipa.be/static/bitcoin/speed.pdf
 691 2011-01-06 11:10:15 <ArtForz> yeah, nice graph
 692 2011-01-06 11:10:31 <UukGoblin> yup, cool
 693 2011-01-06 11:10:51 <ArtForz> though logarithmic difficulty + linear time/block or blocks/time would be easier to read
 694 2011-01-06 11:10:51 <UukGoblin> so effectively it's all the time above the difficulty :-]
 695 2011-01-06 11:11:08 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 696 2011-01-06 11:11:13 <UukGoblin> and derivative would show the speed of growth
 697 2011-01-06 11:11:18 <ArtForz> yea
 698 2011-01-06 11:11:28 <sipa> i've a graph for that as well somewhere
 699 2011-01-06 11:11:33 <UukGoblin> (could also get mtgox price in there)
 700 2011-01-06 11:11:52 <sipa> ArtForz: so put blocks instead of time on the x-axis?
 701 2011-01-06 11:12:03 <sipa> or what do you mean?
 702 2011-01-06 11:12:16 <ArtForz> time on x
 703 2011-01-06 11:12:39 <UukGoblin> log(ghash) on y? :-]
 704 2011-01-06 11:12:47 <ArtForz> on one
 705 2011-01-06 11:12:53 <sipa> ehm, that's what the current graph is :)
 706 2011-01-06 11:12:54 <UukGoblin> hang on, it's like that already
 707 2011-01-06 11:12:55 <da2ce7> UukGoblin, resistance + bad spelling;  it is where the price holds at the same level for a longer time.
 708 2011-01-06 11:13:04 <ArtForz> on the other linear #blocks/timespan vs. expected blocks/timespan
 709 2011-01-06 11:14:04 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, so like when it was ~$0.22, then $0.26 and now $0.30?
 710 2011-01-06 11:14:20 <da2ce7> and particualy at 0.06
 711 2011-01-06 11:15:11 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, so you've found a direct corellation between the price and amount of bitcoins in circulation?
 712 2011-01-06 11:15:38 <da2ce7> yep... sipa made a graph for me before...
 713 2011-01-06 11:15:59 <ArtForz> btw, is it me or has volume gone WAY down
 714 2011-01-06 11:17:21 <da2ce7> http://bitcoin.atspace.com/economy.png
 715 2011-01-06 11:18:10 noagendamarket has joined
 716 2011-01-06 11:18:19 <da2ce7> no it was Raulo
 717 2011-01-06 11:19:05 <da2ce7> and the chart is no longer up... but anyway it is market v.s. time... and you will see that the resistance levels were flat.
 718 2011-01-06 11:19:19 <da2ce7> *market size
 719 2011-01-06 11:20:20 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, it has
 720 2011-01-06 11:20:54 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, so if I'm thinking right, that means that the "backing" of bitcoin doesn't increase...
 721 2011-01-06 11:22:02 <UukGoblin> and it means the price will continue to go up but not drastically... unless there's some external drive to increase demand
 722 2011-01-06 11:22:38 <UukGoblin> ... or hrm, not much up, if there's fewer bitcoins generated after 2013...
 723 2011-01-06 11:23:24 <da2ce7> UukGoblin, yep 'market cap' or 'market size' is value * ammount.  So if the that price hold flat, that show the fundermentals are solid, (when people are not actively investing)
 724 2011-01-06 11:23:39 <da2ce7> if it was trailing down, that is a tell-tale sign that something is wrong.
 725 2011-01-06 11:24:32 <UukGoblin> ok
 726 2011-01-06 11:24:50 <da2ce7> bitcoin dosn't need people investing to keep the price up, (like fiat currencies), it only changes in value when people invest or withdraw.
 727 2011-01-06 11:24:55 <UukGoblin> so a graph that would show this would be simply mtgox price * total btc?
 728 2011-01-06 11:25:02 <UukGoblin> on y, and time on x?
 729 2011-01-06 11:25:26 <da2ce7> yep
 730 2011-01-06 11:25:51 <da2ce7> at any point in time... however the total BTC is not a simple calculation.
 731 2011-01-06 11:26:02 <AAA_awright> Might want to price that in grams gold or something a bit more inflation-proof
 732 2011-01-06 11:26:11 <UukGoblin> until 2013 it's just 50 * blocks
 733 2011-01-06 11:26:35 <da2ce7> yep, but the blocks haven't been produced at a constant rate.
 734 2011-01-06 11:26:53 <UukGoblin> they should be fairly constant at a little above 6/h
 735 2011-01-06 11:27:11 <lfm> one thing I have heard that I think might be wrong is I think it would be possible to have fractional reserve banking with bitcoin
 736 2011-01-06 11:27:44 <AAA_awright> It would, but without a central bank it would be highly regulated by the market
 737 2011-01-06 11:28:06 <da2ce7> lfm, there is nothing wrong with fractional reserve banking... it is only wrong if they are fractionaly leaning fiat money.
 738 2011-01-06 11:28:08 <UukGoblin> you could have many banks, really
 739 2011-01-06 11:28:31 <AAA_awright> More likely the contract would specify when you have access to your money, the interest rate paid would reflect the risk that you can't withdraw all your money at once
 740 2011-01-06 11:28:47 <da2ce7> you cannot 'make' bitcoin out of thin air.  so ther is no issue... The fundermentals are solid.
 741 2011-01-06 11:29:12 <da2ce7> as long as people trade bitcoin insted of bitcoin bank checks, there isn't any issue.
 742 2011-01-06 11:29:23 <AAA_awright> Right
 743 2011-01-06 11:29:48 <UukGoblin> well bank checks should be fine too, as long as the bank(s) can back them with real bitcoins
 744 2011-01-06 11:29:50 <lfm> so .. so long as no one starts producing a lot of thick air we should be fine
 745 2011-01-06 11:29:59 <AAA_awright> Thing about modern fractional reserve banking is real money and phoney money are identical and 1:1 exchangable
 746 2011-01-06 11:30:13 <AAA_awright> BitCoin I don't think you could do such a thing...?
 747 2011-01-06 11:30:17 <AAA_awright> Bitcoin?
 748 2011-01-06 11:30:55 <UukGoblin> main site says Bitcoin
 749 2011-01-06 11:30:56 <da2ce7> lfm, we are forced to use 'bank notes' because they are the same as 'fiat notes'
 750 2011-01-06 11:31:13 <AAA_awright> I meant that as a substitution yeah
 751 2011-01-06 11:32:12 <da2ce7> I fully expect there to be a bitcoin fractional lending system... however it will have many more assits on the books than just bitcoin... It should be very stable.
 752 2011-01-06 11:35:07 * da2ce7 wonders if there are many other IRC channels that have such a depth of tech and economic knowlage
 753 2011-01-06 11:36:55 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, really you have not much to fear... the simlock guys won't have the power efficiency your ASICs will achieve
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 766 2011-01-06 14:04:28 <CIA-106> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen integration * rf86655f / rpc.cpp : Add time to category:move transactions. - http://bit.ly/hmk913
 767 2011-01-06 14:04:28 <CIA-106> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rf86655f / rpc.cpp : Add time to category:move transactions. - http://bit.ly/hmk913
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 774 2011-01-06 15:09:57 davout has joined
 775 2011-01-06 15:10:05 <davout> hi all
 776 2011-01-06 15:14:15 <altamic> hey davout :)
 777 2011-01-06 15:16:36 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/media/stuff/js-remote/ almost done :)
 778 2011-01-06 15:18:19 <devon_hillard> the mining.bitcoin.cz pool, is it possible to automate the donation process to the miner also?
 779 2011-01-06 15:18:37 <devon_hillard> the miner author's address
 780 2011-01-06 15:19:28 <sipa> how do you mean?
 781 2011-01-06 15:19:29 <davout> hey, i have a question for you all rich miners
 782 2011-01-06 15:19:43 <davout> would you be interested in dark pool functionality on bitcoin central ?
 783 2011-01-06 15:20:00 <devon_hillard> sipa: the interface has an option to donate 2-6% to the pool
 784 2011-01-06 15:20:06 <tcatm> davout: no. I don't like dark pools
 785 2011-01-06 15:20:08 <sipa> yes i know
 786 2011-01-06 15:20:18 <sipa> devon_hillard: 0-6% actually
 787 2011-01-06 15:20:24 <devon_hillard> yes
 788 2011-01-06 15:20:34 <davout> tcatm: i think they're mostly beneficial to sellers
 789 2011-01-06 15:20:41 <devon_hillard> so is it possible to add a menu to send a donation to the miner authors?
 790 2011-01-06 15:20:51 <davout> tcatm: well, actually i don't really have an opinion
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 794 2011-01-06 15:21:25 <sipa> devon_hillard: well, currently even the donation to the pool isn't implemented afaik
 795 2011-01-06 15:21:31 <sipa> just the setting
 796 2011-01-06 15:21:50 <devon_hillard> sipa: k, just thought that feature would be worth it
 797 2011-01-06 15:22:10 <devon_hillard> and to encourage miner improvement :)
 798 2011-01-06 15:22:32 <tcatm> davout: maybe you could wait until your exchange is well used
 799 2011-01-06 15:22:38 <sipa> /poke slush
 800 2011-01-06 15:23:05 <devon_hillard> what's a dark pool, btw?
 801 2011-01-06 15:23:14 <scibotic> Is anyone here actually using a web host that accepts bitcoin?
 802 2011-01-06 15:23:44 larsivi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 803 2011-01-06 15:24:13 <tcatm> devon_hillard: orders that don't show in the order book
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 806 2011-01-06 15:25:01 <devon_hillard> tcatm: how would that be useful or relevant for bitcoin?
 807 2011-01-06 15:25:50 <tcatm> devon_hillard: well you could sell 10000 BTC at $0.30 without anyone kowing aobut that order
 808 2011-01-06 15:26:49 <devon_hillard> ah, a sort of ping-pong scam
 809 2011-01-06 15:27:04 <devon_hillard> "I sell you, you sell me back at a higher price etc"
 810 2011-01-06 15:28:01 <slush> sipa: here
 811 2011-01-06 15:28:12 <slush> > devon_hillard: so is it possible to add a menu to send a donation to the miner authors?
 812 2011-01-06 15:28:15 <slush> interesting idea
 813 2011-01-06 15:28:32 <slush> ...to add also donation for m0mchil, Diablo and jgarzik...
 814 2011-01-06 15:28:59 <sipa> or you could make a setting for each miner entry, to choose which miner software you use
 815 2011-01-06 15:29:33 <slush> and yes, donations are not active for now, it is just settings
 816 2011-01-06 15:29:48 <slush> I'll think about miner authors donations
 817 2011-01-06 15:30:49 <davout> tcatm: i think it could attract a bunch of wealthy seller
 818 2011-01-06 15:31:59 <slush> i have to go
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 821 2011-01-06 15:37:20 <nanotube> davout: indeed it would. but for the sake of a little openness... i would maybe suggest that instead of completely dark pools as mtgox does... have the 'dark' orders show up on the book, just not showing the amount. only the price. so you know they're there and at what price, just not the volume.
 822 2011-01-06 15:37:30 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 823 2011-01-06 15:41:06 <davout> nanotube: yea, i don't know, i guess there are going to be forks and interesting experiments :)
 824 2011-01-06 15:41:41 <davout> nanotube: do the dark pool trades get published on mtg ?
 825 2011-01-06 15:42:20 <ArtForz> trades, yep
 826 2011-01-06 15:42:55 <nanotube> donpdonp: yes, trades that happen get published. just the order book is dark.
 827 2011-01-06 15:43:02 <nanotube> davout that is
 828 2011-01-06 15:43:26 <davout> yea ok, i think i might go for that
 829 2011-01-06 15:43:45 <davout> maybe add an option to forbid executing against dark pool orders for those who don't like them
 830 2011-01-06 15:43:57 <davout> i dunno, guess i should brainstorm some more
 831 2011-01-06 15:44:04 <nanotube> well, consider making the existence of the order open, just hiding the volume. because being surprised by a dark pool order can kinda suck.
 832 2011-01-06 15:44:21 <davout> nanotube: that makes sense
 833 2011-01-06 15:44:38 <davout> nanotube: well, does it?
 834 2011-01-06 15:44:45 <davout> nanotube: like in which way ?
 835 2011-01-06 15:44:58 <nanotube> have them on the book... just don't show the volume of bitcoins they're trying to buy/sell
 836 2011-01-06 15:45:02 <davout> if you're selling, your price will be honored
 837 2011-01-06 15:45:04 <nanotube> easy as pie
 838 2011-01-06 15:45:08 <davout> if you're buying it will too
 839 2011-01-06 15:45:13 <ArtForz> yep
 840 2011-01-06 15:45:13 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 841 2011-01-06 15:45:28 <davout> so, i don't really see how one could have a bad surprise
 842 2011-01-06 15:45:42 <nanotube> davout: the surprise is here
 843 2011-01-06 15:45:51 <davout> or maybe an extra fee to see the full order book \o/
 844 2011-01-06 15:46:05 <nanotube> say i'm a seller... i look at the order book, and see lowest ask is say, .30. i say ok, i want to sell, so i'll try to sell at .299
 845 2011-01-06 15:46:31 <nanotube> davout: but then, people start buying, and i'm like shit, why isn't my order getting filled? turns out there's a dark pool at .298 that's stealing my volume
 846 2011-01-06 15:46:37 <nanotube> see? that kind of surprise
 847 2011-01-06 15:46:42 <nanotube> (same thing on the buy side)
 848 2011-01-06 15:47:24 <nanotube> if the dark pool were revealed on the book, i can place my orders with fuller information.
 849 2011-01-06 15:47:50 <nanotube> but anyway, that's just my idea... dunno what others think about that.
 850 2011-01-06 15:48:19 <ArtForz> dunno if thats a bad thing
 851 2011-01-06 15:49:44 <davout> i guess one could argue that your order wouldn't be filled either with a better price on otc/mtgox/bcm
 852 2011-01-06 15:50:28 <davout> i'm kind of surprised at how long it took for mtgox to implement them
 853 2011-01-06 15:50:43 <davout> basically it's just a "show me in the order book flag"
 854 2011-01-06 15:50:53 <ArtForz> btw, with the same reasoning you could also argue against trading bots
 855 2011-01-06 15:52:10 WonTu has joined
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 857 2011-01-06 15:52:35 <ArtForz> though watching bots on mtgox get into a bidding war can be amusing
 858 2011-01-06 16:00:04 <davout> i need to replicate his trading API...
 859 2011-01-06 16:00:38 <tcatm> Better write a new one that works better.
 860 2011-01-06 16:01:29 <davout> yea, it doesn't really look that secure
 861 2011-01-06 16:01:37 <davout> it relies on http sessions being opened
 862 2011-01-06 16:02:00 <davout> i'd rather do something like LR with a shared secret that gets hashed along /w a timestamp
 863 2011-01-06 16:02:12 <tcatm> + it's slow, not really reliable and returns data you didn't request
 864 2011-01-06 16:02:28 <davout> ok, dark pool orders in progress, we'll see how it plays out :)
 865 2011-01-06 16:04:08 <davout> tcatm: yea, i guess it's not that straightforward to write a decent API in PHP
 866 2011-01-06 16:04:15 <davout> they pretty much come for free in rails
 867 2011-01-06 16:04:44 <davout> your trading bot better know how to solve a captcha btw XD
 868 2011-01-06 16:06:09 <davout> wtf
 869 2011-01-06 16:06:16 <davout> almost an hour without a block :/
 870 2011-01-06 16:06:19 <ArtForz> yup
 871 2011-01-06 16:06:27 <davout> fucking statistics
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 876 2011-01-06 16:18:46 <davout> yay, block 101315 is out
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 889 2011-01-06 16:52:51 <davout> holy shit
 890 2011-01-06 16:52:57 <davout> blocks are getting scarce
 891 2011-01-06 16:54:03 <tcatm> yep
 892 2011-01-06 16:54:17 <ArtForz> ?
 893 2011-01-06 16:55:13 <tcatm> short term average is < 6 blocks/hr
 894 2011-01-06 16:55:20 <davout> umm nvm
 895 2011-01-06 16:55:30 <davout> my bbe wasn't refreshed
 896 2011-01-06 16:55:30 <Diablo-D3> ITS THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT
 897 2011-01-06 16:55:32 <scibotic> Crap, I have a transaction that looks like it didn't make it to the network and it won't let me reclaim it as part of my balance.
 898 2011-01-06 16:55:43 <Diablo-D3> scibotic: it'll keep retrying it
 899 2011-01-06 16:55:53 <ArtForz> might take a few hours though
 900 2011-01-06 16:56:19 <scibotic> Diablo-D3, It'll retry sending it? I just happened to be disconnected when I sent it.
 901 2011-01-06 16:56:37 <Diablo-D3> heh thats not good
 902 2011-01-06 16:57:10 <scibotic> No confirmations either.
 903 2011-01-06 16:57:34 <ArtForz> it takes a while before it resends, iirc 1 block + 0-30 min
 904 2011-01-06 16:57:55 <scibotic> Okay, guess I'll grab a cup of coffee then.
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 908 2011-01-06 17:06:14 <luke-jr> slush: I can't seem to login to the site...
 909 2011-01-06 17:06:29 <luke-jr> no errors, just returns me to the login screen
 910 2011-01-06 17:08:33 <luke-jr> nvm, it was links' retarded "aggressive cache"
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 913 2011-01-06 17:23:54 <EvanR-work> scibotic: i had that problem the other day, i reboot bitcoin to give it a kick in the pants
 914 2011-01-06 17:24:23 Bittersweet has joined
 915 2011-01-06 17:24:30 <lfm> Average interval since last diff change: 9.64 min
 916 2011-01-06 17:24:35 <lfm> Average interval last 100 blocks: 11.37 min
 917 2011-01-06 17:25:07 kiba has joined
 918 2011-01-06 17:25:43 <lfm> no thats not right
 919 2011-01-06 17:28:39 <lfm> Average interval last 100 blocks: 59.38 min
 920 2011-01-06 17:29:00 <lfm> is that right now?
 921 2011-01-06 17:30:14 <Bittersweet> Hi, I have a technical question about Bitcoin, if all transactions are stored on clients won't it take to much space on average PC when Bitcoin will get REALLY popular?
 922 2011-01-06 17:30:34 <lfm> depends
 923 2011-01-06 17:30:42 <devon_hillard> not all transactions are stored, just the most recent ones
 924 2011-01-06 17:30:45 <ArtForz> how did you get that number?
 925 2011-01-06 17:31:21 <lfm> art timediff(currentblock, block-100)
 926 2011-01-06 17:31:33 <ArtForz> I get ... about 585s/block
 927 2011-01-06 17:32:08 <lfm> ya thats close to 59 min isnt it
 928 2011-01-06 17:32:21 <ArtForz> errr.. no?
 929 2011-01-06 17:32:30 <sipa> that's close to 10 minutes
 930 2011-01-06 17:32:33 <sipa> as it should be
 931 2011-01-06 17:32:38 <x6763> 9 minutes 45 seconds
 932 2011-01-06 17:32:40 <ArtForz> thats 9m45s
 933 2011-01-06 17:32:45 <lfm> oh
 934 2011-01-06 17:33:20 <ArtForz> unless you use some weird metric minutes with 10 seconds each
 935 2011-01-06 17:34:22 <lfm> no I see my problem
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 938 2011-01-06 17:36:08 <Bittersweet> oh, ok thanks. But the client must at least download all blocks, right?
 939 2011-01-06 17:36:21 <Bittersweet> I mean, when you start the application the first time
 940 2011-01-06 17:36:28 <ArtForz> yep
 941 2011-01-06 17:36:52 <lfm> maybe just block headers, not sure
 942 2011-01-06 17:36:58 <ArtForz> well, techically it wouldn't really HAVE to
 943 2011-01-06 17:37:26 <ArtForz> block headers and merkle trees for blocks with unspent TX would be enough
 944 2011-01-06 17:39:15 <ArtForz> so far no one bothered because the block chain still isn't really that big
 945 2011-01-06 17:45:01 <lfm> even the merkle tree youd only really need about half of it, the actual txn hashes, the rest you can compute and check yourself
 946 2011-01-06 17:46:06 <ArtForz> yeah, you'd only need the lowest merkle hash for each spent branch and the unspent txn
 947 2011-01-06 17:48:21 <Bittersweet> That's all to complicated for me :P I just hope there won't be a situation you when you will have to leave a computer downloading and computing for a month to start using Bitcoin :>
 948 2011-01-06 17:48:50 <ArtForz> very unlikely
 949 2011-01-06 17:50:01 <lfm> bittersweet well in a sense that is already here. if your internet connection is really slow like an old modem it would take you several ages. that is part of the plan, that connection speed will continue to increase also
 950 2011-01-06 17:51:15 <ArtForz> 60MB isnt THAT much even on 14.4k ;)
 951 2011-01-06 17:51:36 <lfm> how bout 300 baud then? :-)
 952 2011-01-06 17:51:59 <ArtForz> how about avian carriers?
 953 2011-01-06 17:52:48 <lfm> floppy sneakernet?
 954 2011-01-06 17:53:48 <ArtForz> station wagon filled with tapes?
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 956 2011-01-06 17:54:07 <Bittersweet> did someone try to make some plausible simulations like, like how long it would take (how many people, if they are doing like 1 transaction / week each) to "block" the system with current average Internet connection?
 957 2011-01-06 17:54:38 <TD> Bittersweet: i did some scaling related calculations in the forum
 958 2011-01-06 17:55:15 <TD> Bittersweet: showing that bitcoin can scale to VISA traffic levels without it becoming radically expensive to run nodes (you'd need a lot more hardware than today but nothing unaffordable for a small business or rich hobbyist)
 959 2011-01-06 17:55:23 <ArtForz> iirc it really shouldnt be a problem even on a home line for the next few orders of magnitude
 960 2011-01-06 17:55:41 <TD> yeah, also the network protocol currently has some inefficiencies in that could be removed
 961 2011-01-06 17:55:48 <ArtForz> yep
 962 2011-01-06 17:55:57 <TD> but if bitcoin ever reaches the level where that'd be useful, average bandwidth is probably 100x what it is today anyway
 963 2011-01-06 17:56:05 <lfm> bittersweet there have been some tests to try to see if there are bottlenecks in the general txn rate yes. we can probably handle 100s of txn /min now
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 966 2011-01-06 17:57:52 <ArtForz> iirc isn't block size still limited to something ridiculous small like 50kB for now?
 967 2011-01-06 17:58:14 <lfm> bittersweet also for really high txn rates you can offload the main net using "local" server accounts such as mybitcoin.com and mtgox.com
 968 2011-01-06 17:59:07 <slush> luke-jr: Logging works perfectly. Are you using correct password?
 969 2011-01-06 17:59:17 <slush> luke-jr: I'm working on 'reset password' feature now
 970 2011-01-06 17:59:24 <luke-jr> slush: yes
 971 2011-01-06 17:59:32 <luke-jr> slush: it was links being retarded with cache
 972 2011-01-06 17:59:37 <lfm> slush he had a caching problem
 973 2011-01-06 18:00:40 <slush> luke-jr: so it is solved?
 974 2011-01-06 18:00:58 <luke-jr> yes
 975 2011-01-06 18:03:37 <TD> ArtForz: 500kb
 976 2011-01-06 18:03:59 <TD> bu yes it's still too small to take over the world :-)
 977 2011-01-06 18:04:42 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 978 2011-01-06 18:04:47 <luke-jr> if I added BTC prizes to a free game, would there be any interest in donating to its fund?
 979 2011-01-06 18:05:12 <ArtForz> well, kinda
 980 2011-01-06 18:05:24 <luke-jr> thinking like 0.01 BTC per winner
 981 2011-01-06 18:05:24 <ArtForz> max size of block to be accepted is 500kB
 982 2011-01-06 18:05:29 <lfm> start with your own btc and we will see
 983 2011-01-06 18:05:37 <ArtForz> iirc normal miner wont put tx into block beyond 50kB thoguh
 984 2011-01-06 18:05:38 <luke-jr> lfm: I have basically no BTC
 985 2011-01-06 18:06:16 <luke-jr> 2.21 BTC now
 986 2011-01-06 18:06:28 ebel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 987 2011-01-06 18:06:31 <ArtForz> nm, it is 500kB
 988 2011-01-06 18:06:51 <lfm> try micro btc prizes then? 0.0000001btc, then youd have 1000s of prizes
 989 2011-01-06 18:07:02 <luke-jr> but I can't transfer 0.0000001 BTC
 990 2011-01-06 18:08:12 <lfm> just call em points and when you have a million points you can "win" 0.01btc
 991 2011-01-06 18:08:13 <luke-jr> guess I need to make it stateful anyway to prevent cheating on prizes
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 997 2011-01-06 18:25:07 <midnightmagic> \o good morning all! Morning, ArtForz.
 998 2011-01-06 18:27:15 <ArtForz> hey
 999 2011-01-06 18:28:13 <ArtForz> ugh, too many VMs open
1000 2011-01-06 18:28:59 <midnightmagic> I just wanted to say thank you for being so free with technical information. :)
1001 2011-01-06 18:29:19 <ArtForz> ?
1002 2011-01-06 18:29:46 <midnightmagic> you know, how free you are with details, and equations, and facts about bitcoin and how your setup is rigged, and so on. it's really sparked my brain.
1003 2011-01-06 18:29:59 <ArtForz> yeah, thats kinda the point
1004 2011-01-06 18:30:06 <midnightmagic> i think your way is the best way thereby. :)
1005 2011-01-06 18:32:57 <lfm> you mean we should all design asics?
1006 2011-01-06 18:33:16 <ArtForz> well, yeah
1007 2011-01-06 18:33:35 <lfm> ill take that under advisment
1008 2011-01-06 18:33:52 <donpdonp> ArtForz: i want to second the kudos on free information. ive got a wiki page just of quotes from you on various aspects of mining.
1009 2011-01-06 18:34:05 <ArtForz> or wait until someone does so and sells hardware
1010 2011-01-06 18:35:14 <tcatm> Any idea why the RPC sometimes stalls for few seconds .. minutes?
1011 2011-01-06 18:35:24 <ArtForz> hmmm... no
1012 2011-01-06 18:36:58 <ArtForz> I dont think we'll see standard cell ASICs in the near future
1013 2011-01-06 18:38:18 <ArtForz> though I do expect various FPGA implementations which still should end up a ~ 3x improvement over GPUs on hash/W (but boy do they suck for hash/$)
1014 2011-01-06 18:40:12 Bittersweet has left ()
1015 2011-01-06 18:42:30 <midnightmagic> it would be interesting to know how long the power savings would take if you put the extra money into a longer-term purchasing plan for new GPU as they came out.
1016 2011-01-06 18:42:59 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1017 2011-01-06 18:43:19 <tcatm> Steps to reproduce: open first telnet to localhost:8332, then open second telnet. Enter "GET / HTTP/1.1" + two returns in second. There's no response. Then enter the same in first telnet session and response in second session appears. Can anyone reproduce this?
1018 2011-01-06 18:43:46 <midnightmagic> GET / HTTP/1.0[ctrl-j][ctrl-m]
1019 2011-01-06 18:43:57 <ArtForz> iirc rpc is single-threaded
1020 2011-01-06 18:44:40 <ArtForz> nope, it isnt... wtf
1021 2011-01-06 18:45:26 <ArtForz> nm, it is
1022 2011-01-06 18:46:13 <ArtForz> so yeah, RPC only handles one connection at a time
1023 2011-01-06 18:49:06 <tcatm> Is there anything that might break when making it multithreaded?
1024 2011-01-06 18:49:39 <ArtForz> probably
1025 2011-01-06 18:50:07 <luke-jr> that's kinda the nature of multithreaded :P
1026 2011-01-06 18:51:03 <ArtForz> it looks like we have locks in all important places
1027 2011-01-06 18:52:55 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure getwork isnt threadsafe
1028 2011-01-06 18:53:35 <tcatm> The RPC server is already running in its own thread, isn't it?
1029 2011-01-06 18:53:39 <ArtForz> yes
1030 2011-01-06 18:54:35 <ArtForz> and it's doing doing while(running) {accept(); get_request(); do_stuff(); send_response();}
1031 2011-01-06 18:55:10 <tcatm> So maybe using select() would work
1032 2011-01-06 18:55:57 <ArtForz> hrrrm
1033 2011-01-06 18:57:04 <ArtForz> yeah, I guess that could work
1034 2011-01-06 18:57:21 <tcatm> There's only one point where data is read. api_caller(ReadHTTP...
1035 2011-01-06 18:57:33 <ArtForz> yeah
1036 2011-01-06 18:58:14 <ArtForz> from the looks of it you could also make it threaded and put a lock around the do_stuff()
1037 2011-01-06 19:05:45 CyanDynamo has joined
1038 2011-01-06 19:07:19 <mizerydearia> uhoh  http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=11/01/06/1820208
1039 2011-01-06 19:08:16 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1040 2011-01-06 19:08:26 <kiba> mizerydearia: non-issue
1041 2011-01-06 19:08:48 <ArtForz> just a DoS, and easily fixed
1042 2011-01-06 19:08:54 <luke-jr> ?
1043 2011-01-06 19:13:37 Myckel has joined
1044 2011-01-06 19:20:35 <EvanR> damn
1045 2011-01-06 19:20:42 <EvanR> were using that version of php
1046 2011-01-06 19:22:16 <mizerydearia> It may affect my scripts if someone were to send 2.2250738585072011e-308btc to any address managed by the vps I'm working on.
1047 2011-01-06 19:22:32 <kiba> floating point are bad, mizerydearia
1048 2011-01-06 19:22:46 <midnightmagic> pretty sure that's too small and the network won't affect it.
1049 2011-01-06 19:22:47 <kiba> I wouldn't use floating point
1050 2011-01-06 19:22:52 <midnightmagic> accept it i mean.
1051 2011-01-06 19:26:13 <mizerydearia> Does anyone here have any experience using OpenID?
1052 2011-01-06 19:26:21 <mizerydearia> developing with it, that is
1053 2011-01-06 19:26:33 <donpdonp> mizerydearia: yes
1054 2011-01-06 19:28:33 AAA_awright_ has joined
1055 2011-01-06 19:30:13 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1056 2011-01-06 19:31:16 <midnightmagic> i am disliking openid these days. bigger websites rarely accept arbitrary openid..
1057 2011-01-06 19:33:32 <mizerydearia> hmm, isn't it gradually becoming more popular?
1058 2011-01-06 19:33:52 <mizerydearia> I am integrating OpenID into a particular Bitcoin-related site.
1059 2011-01-06 19:35:14 <slush> I also plan openid support on pool
1060 2011-01-06 19:37:39 <donpdonp> mizerydearia: im a big fan of openid, though id call it declining instead of growing.
1061 2011-01-06 19:37:47 <mizerydearia> hmm
1062 2011-01-06 19:37:54 <mizerydearia> I noticed the IRC community is tiny.
1063 2011-01-06 19:38:06 <mizerydearia> donpdonp, Have you noticed anything gaining popularity to take its place?
1064 2011-01-06 19:38:08 <nanotube> everyone saw the .40 ppusd trade on bitcoinmarket come by?
1065 2011-01-06 19:38:19 <donpdonp> mizerydearia: i think the savior for openid in the email address to openid url translation in webfinger. see webfinger.org
1066 2011-01-06 19:38:26 <Zarutian> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko <- intresting idea
1067 2011-01-06 19:38:41 <mizerydearia> nanotube: #bitcoin-market ^_^
1068 2011-01-06 19:38:48 <nanotube> mizerydearia: yep :)
1069 2011-01-06 19:40:12 luke-jr has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1070 2011-01-06 19:40:52 <ArtForz> nanotube: yup
1071 2011-01-06 19:41:56 <Zarutian> here a riddle/problem ya'll find interesting: devise a way for escrow less way of selling a name in the scroll for btc. (Fixed price and fixed btc-addr is allowed in the solution)
1072 2011-01-06 19:43:45 <mizerydearia> Zarutian, interesting
1073 2011-01-06 19:43:50 <mizerydearia> link
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1077 2011-01-06 19:50:13 zumba has joined
1078 2011-01-06 19:50:56 <mizerydearia> webfinger seems to be an extension to OpenID
1079 2011-01-06 19:52:14 <mizerydearia> However, at webfinger.org it seems to focus on Google
1080 2011-01-06 19:53:00 <mizerydearia> Although I did use a gmail.com email address.
1081 2011-01-06 19:54:09 <donpdonp> mizerydearia: webfinger is for discovery of all kinds of services based on an email address. openid being just one possible service
1082 2011-01-06 19:54:53 larsivi has joined
1083 2011-01-06 20:03:35 <dsg> Anyone have a link to Dan Kaminsky discussing bitcoin mentioned in the link above?
1084 2011-01-06 20:03:52 <dsg> (the link gives no source)
1085 2011-01-06 20:04:39 larsig has joined
1086 2011-01-06 20:06:21 AAA_awright has joined
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1088 2011-01-06 20:11:27 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1089 2011-01-06 20:14:12 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
1090 2011-01-06 20:14:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101337 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1478 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 23 hours, 21 minutes, and 14 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 16827.96978340
1091 2011-01-06 20:15:10 <midnightmagic> hee hee he said 1337
1092 2011-01-06 20:18:58 <mizerydearia> ooh, interesting interview with gavin: http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2010/12/interview-bitcoin.php
1093 2011-01-06 20:19:33 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1094 2011-01-06 20:20:15 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1095 2011-01-06 20:25:48 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1096 2011-01-06 20:25:53 zumba has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1097 2011-01-06 20:26:40 <sgornick> dsg: Via twitter right before Christmas: http://twitter.com/dakami/status/18069708553068544 there were conversations between: @aaronsw @zooko @mala @ioerror @dakami
1098 2011-01-06 20:31:18 <dsg> sgornick: thanks
1099 2011-01-06 20:31:45 <dsg> I'd guess the answer to that question is $10M. :)
1100 2011-01-06 20:32:21 <sgornick> Others think that threshold is much, much lower
1101 2011-01-06 20:36:35 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 171800
1102 2011-01-06 20:36:49 <mizerydearia> ;calc 171800+1
1103 2011-01-06 20:36:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 171800 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 4 days, 17 hours, 14 minutes, and 43 seconds
1104 2011-01-06 20:36:57 <mizerydearia> O_O
1105 2011-01-06 20:37:02 bitbot has joined
1106 2011-01-06 20:37:03 <mizerydearia> ;calc 171800-1
1107 2011-01-06 20:37:10 <mizerydearia> X_X
1108 2011-01-06 20:38:15 <mizerydearia> Ah, interference
1109 2011-01-06 20:38:59 <ArtForz> yep, a lot lower
1110 2011-01-06 20:39:46 <ArtForz> $250k already get you > current network
1111 2011-01-06 20:40:38 <ArtForz> beyond $1M or so economy of scale really kicks in
1112 2011-01-06 20:40:48 <mizerydearia> hmm
1113 2011-01-06 20:40:55 <mizerydearia> How much have you invested so far ArtForz ?
1114 2011-01-06 20:43:03 <ArtForz> about 60k so far
1115 2011-01-06 20:44:37 <xelister> ArtForz: when will you have first say 10 GHash worth of units and we will know if this was a success?
1116 2011-01-06 20:45:13 <ArtForz> not too sure, chips are done in feb, I'm doing all the assembly myself
1117 2011-01-06 20:45:53 <ArtForz> first bringup will probably take a while, I'm not sure yet if my layout works out
1118 2011-01-06 20:47:23 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
1119 2011-01-06 20:52:33 fogot has joined
1120 2011-01-06 20:52:36 <fogot> hello
1121 2011-01-06 20:52:52 <fogot> I'm curious as to the libraries available for bitcoin
1122 2011-01-06 20:53:16 <fogot> last I checked there was a shortage of them, but then again bitcoin was growing at a surprising rate
1123 2011-01-06 20:53:16 <fogot> soo
1124 2011-01-06 20:53:18 <fogot> i dunno
1125 2011-01-06 20:53:28 <fogot> i had an interesting idea though
1126 2011-01-06 20:53:31 <mizerydearia> ArtForz, What kinds of ideas/plans are you considering implementing or offering with your majority ownership of bitcoins?
1127 2011-01-06 20:54:02 <fogot> metadata can be stored in proof-of-work problems, in a way that disappears if you do "+0*..."
1128 2011-01-06 20:54:04 <ArtForz> 35Gh/s total really isn't a majority
1129 2011-01-06 20:54:20 <fogot> made me think +0* is kind of gods privacy model for the universe
1130 2011-01-06 20:54:29 <mizerydearia> Well, of all users that have bitcoins I believe you have the most.  Is that untrue?
1131 2011-01-06 20:54:49 <fogot> what is the worth of the biggest wallet
1132 2011-01-06 20:54:49 <fogot> USD
1133 2011-01-06 20:54:50 <fogot> ?
1134 2011-01-06 20:54:59 <ArtForz> most likely untrue
1135 2011-01-06 20:55:00 <mizerydearia> fogot, ~$0.30 * bitcoins
1136 2011-01-06 20:55:00 <fogot> didnt this economy go crazy bubbly recently
1137 2011-01-06 20:55:06 * sipa supposes that satoshi may have more
1138 2011-01-06 20:55:08 <sgornick> fogot: There are tools for looking at YOUR wallet https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
1139 2011-01-06 20:55:17 <ArtForz> I only have like 37k right now
1140 2011-01-06 20:55:33 <fogot> artforz how much is that usd
1141 2011-01-06 20:55:39 <ArtForz> *0.3 ?
1142 2011-01-06 20:55:45 <fogot> 11g
1143 2011-01-06 20:55:48 <fogot> eh
1144 2011-01-06 20:56:00 <ArtForz> total I mined so far is ~255k
1145 2011-01-06 20:56:00 <fogot> is that about the biggest single wallet supposedly?
1146 2011-01-06 20:56:18 <fogot> thats a yearly salary
1147 2011-01-06 20:56:25 <fogot> respectable*
1148 2011-01-06 20:56:29 <fogot> how long a period
1149 2011-01-06 20:56:31 <fogot> was that over
1150 2011-01-06 20:56:43 <ArtForz> started mid july
1151 2011-01-06 20:56:54 <fogot> jeebo
1152 2011-01-06 20:56:57 <fogot> thats fast
1153 2011-01-06 20:57:12 <fogot> can you remark on the trends of bitcoin worth vs the dollar
1154 2011-01-06 20:57:14 <fogot> of late
1155 2011-01-06 20:57:18 <xelister> 255k coins?
1156 2011-01-06 20:57:24 <ArtForz> yep
1157 2011-01-06 20:57:31 <xelister> at this point it would be really profitable to break into ArtForz's place lol
1158 2011-01-06 20:57:42 <mizerydearia> fogot, Glance at the chart at https://bitcoinmarket.com
1159 2011-01-06 20:57:42 <ArtForz> 5110 blocks
1160 2011-01-06 20:57:49 <mizerydearia> graph*
1161 2011-01-06 20:57:55 <ArtForz> whoops, 5111
1162 2011-01-06 20:57:57 <sgornick> fogot: Other good info from : http://blockexplorer.com/q
1163 2011-01-06 20:58:04 <mizerydearia> Also bitcoincharts.com
1164 2011-01-06 20:59:09 <ArtForz> if the design works, I'll probably get quotes from board houses for assembly
1165 2011-01-06 20:59:23 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1166 2011-01-06 20:59:51 ziman has joined
1167 2011-01-06 20:59:53 <ArtForz> because doing all the prep work and reflow for 100 36*36mm modules isn't exactly what I call a fun hobby
1168 2011-01-06 21:01:26 <ziman> hello, does the bitcoin gui client depend on a specific version of wxwidgets? The GUI does not show up after running ./bitcoin, (debian squeeze, 32bit, libwxgtk2.8). I noticed that makefile.unix contains a path to wxgtk-2.9 instead and I'm unsure how to go about debugging this.
1169 2011-01-06 21:01:54 <ziman> (I'm running the binary client.)
1170 2011-01-06 21:02:50 <ArtForz> yea, I have each engine chip on its own small carrier PCB, makes testing a lot easier
1171 2011-01-06 21:04:09 <sipa> ziman: i fixed by making the makefile call wx-config
1172 2011-01-06 21:04:15 <sipa> instead of using hardcoded paths
1173 2011-01-06 21:04:19 <sipa> not sure how others do it :)
1174 2011-01-06 21:04:45 <ziman> sipa, thank you :)
1175 2011-01-06 21:05:58 <marioxcc> ArtForz: What's what you will do?
1176 2011-01-06 21:06:10 <ArtForz> ?
1177 2011-01-06 21:06:33 <marioxcc> seems like I missed most the conversation (logs didn't stored)
1178 2011-01-06 21:06:54 <marioxcc> are you building a custom hardware for bitcoin block crunching?
1179 2011-01-06 21:07:00 <ArtForz> yup
1180 2011-01-06 21:07:19 <marioxcc> fine
1181 2011-01-06 21:07:32 <marioxcc> have you published the design and proyect documentation?
1182 2011-01-06 21:07:35 <ArtForz> nope
1183 2011-01-06 21:07:59 <marioxcc> ok
1184 2011-01-06 21:08:21 akem has joined
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1186 2011-01-06 21:08:21 akem has joined
1187 2011-01-06 21:08:36 <ArtForz> it's not like I'm doing anything groundbreaking
1188 2011-01-06 21:10:12 <marioxcc> well, kind of
1189 2011-01-06 21:10:40 <sipa> if i understand it right, the price per Mh/s isn't that much lower than for a GPU
1190 2011-01-06 21:10:46 <marioxcc> at least a custom hardware block cruncher will show there is interest in serious generation
1191 2011-01-06 21:11:14 <sipa> but the W/Mh is a lot lower
1192 2011-01-06 21:11:47 <ArtForz> actually price per Mh/s is a lot higher than ATI
1193 2011-01-06 21:11:59 <sipa> disregarding the design costs
1194 2011-01-06 21:12:10 <fogot> so bitcoin tools is purely for dealing with wallet files, basically?
1195 2011-01-06 21:12:14 <fogot> no network shtuf
1196 2011-01-06 21:12:20 <ArtForz> then it's about on par
1197 2011-01-06 21:12:35 <marioxcc> ArtForz: what do your mining farm consist of, currently?
1198 2011-01-06 21:12:38 <sipa> but when the price comes closer to the electricity costs
1199 2011-01-06 21:12:48 <sipa> the gains will be massive :)
1200 2011-01-06 21:13:07 <marioxcc> sipa: isn't it the other way?
1201 2011-01-06 21:13:07 <ArtForz> 24 5970s, 5 5770s, a 6870, a 6970
1202 2011-01-06 21:13:48 <marioxcc> ok :)
1203 2011-01-06 21:15:52 <ArtForz> I'll probably sell most of em and order another 100 chips or so if things work out
1204 2011-01-06 21:16:33 <marioxcc> the specific purpouse ones?
1205 2011-01-06 21:16:37 <ArtForz> yep
1206 2011-01-06 21:16:57 <marioxcc> ok
1207 2011-01-06 21:17:12 <ArtForz> in summer I pay ~$0.30/kWh for utility power
1208 2011-01-06 21:17:23 <marioxcc> ok
1209 2011-01-06 21:17:54 larsig has joined
1210 2011-01-06 21:18:37 <marioxcc> ArtForz: who do you manufacture the chips for you?
1211 2011-01-06 21:18:58 <ArtForz> yep
1212 2011-01-06 21:19:18 <marioxcc> what's the name of the manufacturer, I mean
1213 2011-01-06 21:19:25 <midnightmagic> altera does that for you for the structured asic stuff. http://www.altera.com/products/software/flows/asic/qts-structured_asic.html
1214 2011-01-06 21:20:03 <sgornick> fogot: There are some resources: http://bcspec.org/
1215 2011-01-06 21:20:13 <midnightmagic> but i'm sure they're not the only ones.
1216 2011-01-06 21:20:47 <sgornick> fogot: And there is source code: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1217 2011-01-06 21:22:04 <marioxcc> I see
1218 2011-01-06 21:22:10 <midnightmagic> Xilinx has EasyPath: http://www.xilinx.com/products/easypath/index.htm
1219 2011-01-06 21:22:59 <midnightmagic> i like xilinx..  i wish their tools were a little more open though
1220 2011-01-06 21:23:10 <ArtForz> though xilinx easypath really is kinda suck
1221 2011-01-06 21:24:16 <ArtForz> a bit cheaper than virtexes, but not really faster or much less power hungry
1222 2011-01-06 21:25:56 <ArtForz> which is kinda weird
1223 2011-01-06 21:29:05 <ArtForz> routing matrix takes up ~half of a FPGAs chip estate, getting rid of that should lower power consumption and improve speed by quite a bit
1224 2011-01-06 21:29:54 <marioxcc> how do you get rid of that?
1225 2011-01-06 21:30:17 <ArtForz> erm, thats the whole point of structured ASIC
1226 2011-01-06 21:30:49 <ArtForz> you have fixed logic blocks in silicon and lower metal layers, you do the routing in the upper metal layers
1227 2011-01-06 21:30:51 acous has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1228 2011-01-06 21:31:25 <marioxcc> ok
1229 2011-01-06 21:31:34 <ArtForz> = you save millions of whats essentially SRAM cells for the reconfigureable routing matrix
1230 2011-01-06 21:31:58 <ArtForz> my guess is they're actually doing something else
1231 2011-01-06 21:32:24 <ArtForz> FPGA silicon + interconnect and a maskROM for the config in one or 2 metal layers
1232 2011-01-06 21:32:40 <marioxcc> so it is like a FPGA with a metal layer to route as need?
1233 2011-01-06 21:32:48 <ArtForz> yep
1234 2011-01-06 21:33:16 <ArtForz> you have the same basic LUTs, FFs, blockRAMs, ... as in a FPGA
1235 2011-01-06 21:33:54 <marioxcc> ok
1236 2011-01-06 21:34:29 <ArtForz> from that point theres different approaches
1237 2011-01-06 21:34:57 kiba has joined
1238 2011-01-06 21:35:25 <marioxcc> what's the gain with these kinds of ASICs?
1239 2011-01-06 21:35:47 <ArtForz> about a factor of 3-4 over FPGA in hash/W
1240 2011-01-06 21:35:55 <marioxcc> ok
1241 2011-01-06 21:36:19 <ArtForz> problem is, even the biggest "low-cost" FPGAs are too small to fit one fully unrolled double-sha256 engine
1242 2011-01-06 21:36:23 acous has joined
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1244 2011-01-06 21:36:23 acous has joined
1245 2011-01-06 21:36:45 <ArtForz> otherwise something like a spartan6 would actually somewhat make sense
1246 2011-01-06 21:37:04 <ArtForz> next FPGA gen should be big enough though
1247 2011-01-06 21:37:23 <fogot> dude you just get a handul of cheap fpgas
1248 2011-01-06 21:37:51 <ArtForz> dude you do the math then say that again
1249 2011-01-06 21:38:04 <marioxcc> ArtForz: what about implementing all which can fit in one FPGA and continue the processing in the following one?
1250 2011-01-06 21:38:29 <ArtForz> 256 bits of data, I sure as hell dont want to do the PCB design for that one
1251 2011-01-06 21:39:31 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1252 2011-01-06 21:39:50 <ArtForz> and you still dont get that much performance out of it
1253 2011-01-06 21:41:12 <marioxcc> is really worth unrolling?
1254 2011-01-06 21:41:18 <ArtForz> yes
1255 2011-01-06 21:41:18 <fogot> tats why you have computers do the plans for u
1256 2011-01-06 21:41:19 <fogot> dur
1257 2011-01-06 21:41:41 <fogot> lol mario
1258 2011-01-06 21:41:54 <fogot> ur a plumber what are u doin in irc
1259 2011-01-06 21:42:58 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
1260 2011-01-06 21:43:12 <ArtForz> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2362.msg33869#msg33869
1261 2011-01-06 21:43:15 <bitbot> An estimate of fpga performance Connection refused.
1262 2011-01-06 21:43:27 ApertureScience has quit (Quit: This a triumph,I'm making a note here HUGE SUCCESS!)
1263 2011-01-06 21:44:03 kermit has joined
1264 2011-01-06 21:44:05 <ArtForz> lol
1265 2011-01-06 21:46:18 <marioxcc> i'm back, sorry
1266 2011-01-06 21:46:47 <marioxcc> i'm mean maybe you don't need so many gates if you just unroll a round and iterate
1267 2011-01-06 21:46:57 <ArtForz> nope
1268 2011-01-06 21:47:12 ApertureScience has joined
1269 2011-01-06 21:47:32 <ArtForz> if you use 128 / X rounds you now need X clocks/hash = you now need X engines to get the same hash/s at the same clock
1270 2011-01-06 21:47:49 <ArtForz> so you won really nothing and now have more control overhead
1271 2011-01-06 21:47:56 <marioxcc> ok
1272 2011-01-06 21:47:59 LobsterMan has joined
1273 2011-01-06 21:48:00 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
1274 2011-01-06 21:48:00 LobsterMan has joined
1275 2011-01-06 21:52:52 <slush> does anybody known what happen with bitcoinme.com?
1276 2011-01-06 21:55:13 <nanotube> looks like it's borked... :)
1277 2011-01-06 21:55:29 <marioxcc> hosting expried
1278 2011-01-06 21:57:49 <slush> hope bruce will put it back. otherwise I can put my site translations to bin
1279 2011-01-06 21:59:38 ThomasV has joined
1280 2011-01-06 22:00:05 <marioxcc> bruce?
1281 2011-01-06 22:00:16 <mizerydearia> bitcoinme.com created 16-nov-2010
1282 2011-01-06 22:02:50 ApertureScience has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1283 2011-01-06 22:03:28 <slush> bruce wagner
1284 2011-01-06 22:04:01 Slix` has joined
1285 2011-01-06 22:05:13 ApertureScience has joined
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1289 2011-01-06 22:35:37 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: do you have access to a full-text research library? There are a good..  probably 40-50 papers on FPGA-based SHA256 engines.
1290 2011-01-06 22:36:10 <midnightmagic> if you haven't had a look, it might be worth peeking at them, just for completeness' sake.
1291 2011-01-06 22:36:56 <ArtForz> yeah
1292 2011-01-06 22:37:23 <ArtForz> and it's still the same problem, FPGA adders just dont go very fast
1293 2011-01-06 22:37:23 <bitbot> O__O wtf?
1294 2011-01-06 22:37:33 <bitbot> O__O wtf?
1295 2011-01-06 22:38:30 <mizerydearia> bitbot: see?  you're broken, you posted in the wrong chan...
1296 2011-01-06 22:39:46 <midnightmagic> I found a nice one I managed to save: "Cost-Efficient SHA Hardware Accelerators, IEEE Transactions on Very Large Scale Integration (VLSI) Systems, Vol. 16, No. 8, August 2008, Ricardo Chaves, Georgi Kuzmanov, Leonel Sousa, Stamatis Vassiliadis
1297 2011-01-06 22:40:27 <midnightmagic> there're some other things in that one besides speeding up adders
1298 2011-01-06 22:41:12 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1299 2011-01-06 22:41:29 <ArtForz> yeah, they're mostly ocncerned with sha1
1300 2011-01-06 22:43:53 <midnightmagic> they're including SHA256 in their introduction. "Throughput of 1.4Gbit/s is achievable for both SHA-128 and SHA-256 hash functions. For SHA-512 this value increases to 1.8Gbit/s."  "670% Throughput/Slice improvement regarding related art." "100% improvement regarding current state of the art."
1301 2011-01-06 22:45:19 <ArtForz> 797 slices of a virtex2 for 1184Mbit/s
1302 2011-01-06 22:45:21 <sipa> midnightmagic: sha-256 uses 512-bit input blocks
1303 2011-01-06 22:45:32 <sipa> or 64 bytes
1304 2011-01-06 22:45:49 <sipa> and bitcoin needs to do two sha256 blocks
1305 2011-01-06 22:45:55 <ArtForz> thats ... about 1.15Mh/s ...
1306 2011-01-06 22:46:10 <Diablo-D3> three
1307 2011-01-06 22:46:13 <Diablo-D3> but ones boiled away
1308 2011-01-06 22:46:26 <sipa> i get 1.3MGh/s
1309 2011-01-06 22:46:30 <sipa> ow
1310 2011-01-06 22:46:34 <sipa> 1.36MH/s
1311 2011-01-06 22:46:39 <midnightmagic> i have no comparison versus what ArtForz has already done for his structured ASICs, only the claims of the authors to go on..
1312 2011-01-06 22:46:50 <ArtForz> well, it's a decent work, but nothing groundbreaking
1313 2011-01-06 22:47:15 <sipa> midnightmagic: ArtForz' structured asics do 200MH/s :)
1314 2011-01-06 22:47:15 <ArtForz> moving parts of the calculation to previous stages is what you do to make things go faster
1315 2011-01-06 22:47:16 <midnightmagic> course not, but if they're right, and their fpga cores are 50-100% faster for sha2. anyway, just pointing it out.
1316 2011-01-06 22:47:22 <midnightmagic> those are different chips.
1317 2011-01-06 22:47:55 <ArtForz> yeah, I guess I'll have to more closely examine what they've done, but I think I'm mostly using all their tricks already
1318 2011-01-06 22:48:00 TD has joined
1319 2011-01-06 22:48:23 <midnightmagic> might that be related to "operation rescheduling for a more efficient pipeline usage"? that's in there.
1320 2011-01-06 22:48:32 <Diablo-D3> also
1321 2011-01-06 22:48:36 <Diablo-D3> art is a horrible horrible man
1322 2011-01-06 22:49:04 <ArtForz> yep
1323 2011-01-06 22:49:10 <midnightmagic> no, just proud. nothing wrong with that because he's also rational. :-)
1324 2011-01-06 22:49:13 <Diablo-D3> after he gets his asic farm up
1325 2011-01-06 22:49:16 <Diablo-D3> hes going to be like
1326 2011-01-06 22:49:23 <Diablo-D3> half the bitcoin miner power
1327 2011-01-06 22:49:40 <ArtForz> basically you can move calculations around to a earlier stage in the pipeline to save pipeline stages
1328 2011-01-06 22:50:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah but
1329 2011-01-06 22:50:15 <Diablo-D3> theres only so much you ccan do
1330 2011-01-06 22:50:20 <midnightmagic> i often wonder what that would mean for public perception of the currency. :-)
1331 2011-01-06 22:50:22 <Diablo-D3> sha2 simply isnt efficient
1332 2011-01-06 22:50:30 <Diablo-D3> [05:40:31] <midnightmagic> they're including SHA256 in their introduction. "Throughput of 1.4Gbit/s is achievable for both SHA-128 and SHA-256 hash functions. For SHA-512 this value increases to 1.8Gbit/s."  "670% Throughput/Slice improvement regarding related art." "100% improvement regarding current state of the art."
1333 2011-01-06 22:50:37 <ArtForz> yep, sha2 never was designed to be particularly efficient in hardware
1334 2011-01-06 22:50:37 <Diablo-D3> whats this sha-128?
1335 2011-01-06 22:50:38 <Diablo-D3> no such thing
1336 2011-01-06 22:50:48 <ArtForz> yes
1337 2011-01-06 22:51:03 <ArtForz> and 1.4Gbits/s = about 1.3Mhash/s
1338 2011-01-06 22:51:33 <ArtForz> each sha256 block is 512 bits, and bitcoinhash is 2 blocks
1339 2011-01-06 22:51:43 <Diablo-D3> whats the base unit we're looking at here?
1340 2011-01-06 22:51:45 <ArtForz> well, not quite 2 blocks, you can shave 3 rounds off each end
1341 2011-01-06 22:52:03 <Diablo-D3> because like
1342 2011-01-06 22:52:11 <sipa> that would get you 1.43MH/s
1343 2011-01-06 22:52:13 <Diablo-D3> 1.3mhash * even 256 is slow
1344 2011-01-06 22:52:18 <sipa> if it's a factor 128/122
1345 2011-01-06 22:52:29 <ArtForz> and that was on a XC2PV-7
1346 2011-01-06 22:52:44 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: so whats the total?
1347 2011-01-06 22:53:08 <ArtForz> XC2PC-7, 755 slices, 174MHz, 1370Mbit/s
1348 2011-01-06 22:53:21 <ArtForz> iirc virtex2 was 4-input LUTs
1349 2011-01-06 22:53:32 <Diablo-D3> thats.... not really... good at all
1350 2011-01-06 22:53:40 <ArtForz> lemme check
1351 2011-01-06 22:54:21 <Diablo-D3> how many dollars does that cost?
1352 2011-01-06 22:54:33 <midnightmagic> xilinx chips are a little pricey
1353 2011-01-06 22:54:34 <ArtForz> it's a ancient FPGA
1354 2011-01-06 22:54:52 <ArtForz> well, ancient in FPGA terms
1355 2011-01-06 22:54:59 <ArtForz> = about 4 generations old
1356 2011-01-06 22:55:16 <ArtForz> just checking what that should roughly be in modern FPGA slices
1357 2011-01-06 22:55:26 <Diablo-D3> because like
1358 2011-01-06 22:55:45 <Diablo-D3> if it uses less watts than two (three?) 5970s
1359 2011-01-06 22:55:51 <Diablo-D3> thats not... THAT bad
1360 2011-01-06 22:56:17 <sipa> Diablo-D3: and what speed do you expect?
1361 2011-01-06 22:56:27 <sipa> 1.43MH/s is nothing
1362 2011-01-06 22:56:36 <ArtForz> sec
1363 2011-01-06 22:56:57 <Diablo-D3> wait, I was reading that as 1370 mhash
1364 2011-01-06 22:57:00 <Diablo-D3> thats retardedly slow
1365 2011-01-06 22:57:16 <midnightmagic> the important part isn't the end speed, but the techniques presented, and compared against the then-current state-of-the-art. it's kind of irrelevant what the precise speeds are..
1366 2011-01-06 22:57:36 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: um bullshit
1367 2011-01-06 22:57:42 <Diablo-D3> its about mhash watt
1368 2011-01-06 22:58:06 <sipa> currently it isn't
1369 2011-01-06 22:58:08 <sipa> but it will be
1370 2011-01-06 22:58:13 <ArtForz> V2 had 2 4-input LUTs, 2 FFs and carry logic in each slice
1371 2011-01-06 22:59:34 <ArtForz> virtex6 and spartan6 are somewhat different in structure
1372 2011-01-06 23:00:04 <Diablo-D3> [05:47:42] <ArtForz> and 1.4Gbits/s = about 1.3Mhash/s
1373 2011-01-06 23:00:22 <Diablo-D3> so its a $2000 half of a c2d e8500.
1374 2011-01-06 23:00:26 <Diablo-D3> even less than half
1375 2011-01-06 23:00:33 <ArtForz> well, not quite
1376 2011-01-06 23:00:35 <ArtForz> sec
1377 2011-01-06 23:01:03 <sipa> all depends on how fast it would be on a modern fpga
1378 2011-01-06 23:01:13 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: superior technique achieves speed and efficiency. if there are techniques which improve your speed, you are more efficient, and your /watt performance increases. If there are techniques that Art can use to improve his efficiency, then I have paid him back. perhaps there's something he can incorporate into the next design.
1379 2011-01-06 23:01:15 <sipa> but i don't think it can beat either gpu's:)
1380 2011-01-06 23:01:16 <ArtForz> v6 and s6 have 2 5-input LUTs, 8 FFs per slice andf carry logic in half the slices
1381 2011-01-06 23:02:16 <midnightmagic> perhaps not, either way, his design is closed so we really don't know and can't argue about it, can we?
1382 2011-01-06 23:02:23 <ArtForz> so overall you probably end up with ~the same # of slices per engine
1383 2011-01-06 23:03:22 <ArtForz> so... about 800 slices per engine, a XC6SLX150 has about 23000 slices
1384 2011-01-06 23:04:28 <ArtForz> and I kinda doubt you'll get more than 150 Mhz out of a spartan6... so about 1.2Gbit/s/engine
1385 2011-01-06 23:05:07 <sipa> that's a very nice 32MH/s per fpga? :p
1386 2011-01-06 23:05:10 <ArtForz> yep
1387 2011-01-06 23:05:17 <ArtForz> per $180 FPGA
1388 2011-01-06 23:05:27 * sipa sticks to GPUs
1389 2011-01-06 23:06:27 <Diablo-D3> thats faster... but still slow
1390 2011-01-06 23:06:55 <ArtForz> well, I get about twice that out of a XC6SLX150
1391 2011-01-06 23:07:08 <ArtForz> still slow, hot and expensive though
1392 2011-01-06 23:11:43 <Diablo-D3> so
1393 2011-01-06 23:11:47 <Diablo-D3> 32mhz per $180
1394 2011-01-06 23:11:50 <Diablo-D3> er
1395 2011-01-06 23:11:53 <Diablo-D3> 32mhs
1396 2011-01-06 23:11:59 <ArtForz> for the chip alone
1397 2011-01-06 23:12:15 <Diablo-D3> that
1398 2011-01-06 23:12:21 <Diablo-D3> fuck
1399 2011-01-06 23:12:29 <Diablo-D3> I lost the url to the wiki page
1400 2011-01-06 23:13:39 <ArtForz> iirc commercial designs are in the ~$400/chip area for high density, slow interconnect stuff, and closer to $750/chip for a dozen on a PCIe board
1401 2011-01-06 23:14:04 <Diablo-D3> okay here we go
1402 2011-01-06 23:14:13 <midnightmagic> i love being glimpsing the edge of what's possible.
1403 2011-01-06 23:14:33 <ArtForz> sadly 6-layer boards, low-nois polyphase VRMs, ... dont grow on trees :/
1404 2011-01-06 23:14:40 <Diablo-D3> thats roughly a 5550
1405 2011-01-06 23:14:54 <ArtForz> yeah
1406 2011-01-06 23:15:04 <ArtForz> just using a lot less power
1407 2011-01-06 23:15:29 <Diablo-D3> lets try the other way around
1408 2011-01-06 23:15:41 <ArtForz> I'd guess about 7-8W
1409 2011-01-06 23:15:59 <Diablo-D3> a 5770 costs $112
1410 2011-01-06 23:16:07 <ArtForz> which might be a problem with spartan6s, those dont have thermally enhanced packages
1411 2011-01-06 23:16:37 <Diablo-D3> a 5850 costs $180 after rebate
1412 2011-01-06 23:16:39 <ArtForz> virtex 6 is flip-chip packaged with decently low junction-case Rth
1413 2011-01-06 23:16:40 <Diablo-D3> so
1414 2011-01-06 23:16:55 <Diablo-D3> thats 240 mhash/sec vs.... 32.
1415 2011-01-06 23:16:59 <ArtForz> spartan6 iirc is still using plain ole BGA packaging
1416 2011-01-06 23:17:27 <Diablo-D3> and it uses 151 watts
1417 2011-01-06 23:17:39 <Diablo-D3> what does that fpga use?
1418 2011-01-06 23:17:47 <ArtForz> I'd guessa bout 7-8W
1419 2011-01-06 23:17:55 <Diablo-D3> _feh_
1420 2011-01-06 23:18:39 <Diablo-D3> 4 mhash per watt on the fpga vs 1.6 on the gpu
1421 2011-01-06 23:18:45 <ArtForz> yeah
1422 2011-01-06 23:18:51 <Diablo-D3> and... its still pointless
1423 2011-01-06 23:19:14 <Diablo-D3> for every dollar you can spend, I can spend the same amount and curb stomp the fpga
1424 2011-01-06 23:19:25 <sipa> and 16 MH/W on those structures asics
1425 2011-01-06 23:19:26 <ArtForz> yep
1426 2011-01-06 23:19:34 <ArtForz> yep
1427 2011-01-06 23:19:40 <midnightmagic> dude. seriously. it's not the final design that's important, but the techniques presented therein. it does not logically follow that because the final product is slower (if it is) that the entire academic paper is therefore pointless.
1428 2011-01-06 23:19:54 <ArtForz> XC6SLX150 in FG484 is something like 3.7°C/W junction-case, so at 7W you're already looking die temp 26°C above case
1429 2011-01-06 23:20:00 <xelister> Diablo-D3: also prices of this card will drop a lot
1430 2011-01-06 23:20:06 <ArtForz> max die temp for C grade is 85°C
1431 2011-01-06 23:20:12 <midnightmagic> anyway, no big deal. :-)
1432 2011-01-06 23:20:23 <ArtForz> = max case temp 59.1°C
1433 2011-01-06 23:21:04 <ArtForz> assuming max ambient of 40°C, we need 2.7°C/W heatsink + TIM
1434 2011-01-06 23:21:51 <ArtForz> = we need forced airflow
1435 2011-01-06 23:23:12 <Diablo-D3> how many watts can I shove through the asics?
1436 2011-01-06 23:24:08 <ArtForz> with forced air about 25W
1437 2011-01-06 23:24:37 <ArtForz> thermally enhanced packages are fucking awesome
1438 2011-01-06 23:25:40 <ArtForz> kinda pointless though
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1449 2011-01-06 23:44:11 <tcatm> How many blocks are needed for a generation to confirm? 120?
1450 2011-01-06 23:44:42 <AAA_awright> tcatm: I thought it was 50
1451 2011-01-06 23:44:50 <AAA_awright> Should be about 12 hours or so
1452 2011-01-06 23:44:58 <AAA_awright> Hmm maybe 6
1453 2011-01-06 23:45:12 <da2ce7> 200
1454 2011-01-06 23:45:14 <da2ce7> *100
1455 2011-01-06 23:45:27 <da2ce7> then the extra 20 are optional
1456 2011-01-06 23:45:32 <ArtForz> yep, 100, client displays 120
1457 2011-01-06 23:46:14 <tcatm> So will getbalance "" include them on 100 or 120 confirmations?
1458 2011-01-06 23:46:29 <ArtForz> 120 I think
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