1 2011-01-07 00:01:08 Bth8 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2 2011-01-07 00:01:29 <midnightmagic> well, at least testnet generation is working.
3 2011-01-07 00:09:08 <BitterSweet> Hi is there any way to reduce how much CPU power the client uses when "generating money"?
4 2011-01-07 00:09:34 <BitterSweet> *coins
5 2011-01-07 00:09:41 <tcatm> Anyone generating on testnet? :)
6 2011-01-07 00:10:02 <marioxcc> BitterSweet: only if you reduce generation rate
7 2011-01-07 00:10:27 <marioxcc> otherwise no, did you expect the CPU to have a magic push-button which saves 50% energy?
8 2011-01-07 00:11:10 <BitterSweet> I thought you can make application not use 100% CPU just by making the generating slower
9 2011-01-07 00:11:19 <marioxcc> that's what I mean
10 2011-01-07 00:11:31 <marioxcc> only if you reduce generation rate you will reduce CPU usage
11 2011-01-07 00:11:42 <BitterSweet> yes, I don't need max generation rate
12 2011-01-07 00:11:42 <marioxcc> and with reduced CPU usage comes reduced power consumption
13 2011-01-07 00:11:54 <marioxcc> however
14 2011-01-07 00:12:00 <marioxcc> in GNU/linux for instance
15 2011-01-07 00:12:15 <marioxcc> it gets the higest nice number
16 2011-01-07 00:12:31 <marioxcc> so other software takes precedence
17 2011-01-07 00:12:45 james_ has joined
18 2011-01-07 00:12:47 <marioxcc> CPU usage, per se, shouldn't be a problem
19 2011-01-07 00:12:59 <BitterSweet> I don't see an option to reduce generation rate
20 2011-01-07 00:13:12 Guest70465 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21 2011-01-07 00:14:24 <marioxcc> in the default bitcoin client, there isn't.
22 2011-01-07 00:14:42 <marioxcc> free feel to add it, the default bitcoin client is free software
23 2011-01-07 00:15:16 <BitterSweet> bummer, I'm not a programmer
24 2011-01-07 00:15:19 <BitterSweet> :P
25 2011-01-07 00:15:43 <marioxcc> then learn programming or pay someone for doing the change
26 2011-01-07 00:15:57 <marioxcc> you can also ask a volunteer and pay him nothing
27 2011-01-07 00:16:10 <marioxcc> provided you find one, of course
28 2011-01-07 00:16:18 <BitterSweet> nah I simply won't generate the blocks
29 2011-01-07 00:16:26 <ArtForz> kinda hard, as it sound pretty pointless
30 2011-01-07 00:16:28 <xelister> ```pic
31 2011-01-07 00:16:30 <xelister> Tired of POOLED MINING with no result? GET PAID NOW! Doing usefull stuff:) Send pic of "Xelister and bitcoin rock! :*" pen-written: 0.01 BTC on hand; If ur cute girl: 0.05; 0.10 on back or above breasts; 1.00 on them(>18yo!). ~50 BTC for nice girls(PM me). Not faked! 3 nice foto >1MPix. FaceVisible=x2. | Ugly or male? No probl! Ask sister ;) -or- Email Adobe/MS/US gov/China why they're fags(0.03). Real offer:) PM before!
32 2011-01-07 00:16:35 <BitterSweet> I didn't want do it for money, I thought it helps speed up transactions
33 2011-01-07 00:16:36 <xelister> BitterSweet: --^ :D
34 2011-01-07 00:16:48 <ArtForz> running 100% for a while and 0% for a while is more efficient overall than going 50% all the time
35 2011-01-07 00:16:49 <marioxcc> BitterSweet: no really
36 2011-01-07 00:17:21 <BitterSweet> so besides the tiny financial bonus for those who generate it doesn't do anything good for the network?
37 2011-01-07 00:17:30 <marioxcc> more generation capacity don't speed ups transactions, as network will change difficulty to try to keep a 6 blocks per hour rate
38 2011-01-07 00:17:43 <marioxcc> it is not so tiny
39 2011-01-07 00:17:55 <marioxcc> however
40 2011-01-07 00:18:10 <marioxcc> more geneation power makes it harder for an attacker to break something
41 2011-01-07 00:18:13 <ArtForz> yep
42 2011-01-07 00:18:31 <ArtForz> and actual generation is kinda unlikely if you dont have at least a decent GPU
43 2011-01-07 00:18:46 <BitterSweet> that's why I would run it voluntairly but not if it takes 100% CPU
44 2011-01-07 00:18:49 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 16000
45 2011-01-07 00:18:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 16000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 7 weeks, 1 day, 15 hours, 58 minutes, and 26 seconds
46 2011-01-07 00:19:15 <ArtForz> ... thats about a high-end 6-core CPU
47 2011-01-07 00:19:39 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 500000
48 2011-01-07 00:19:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 1 day, 14 hours, 54 minutes, and 40 seconds
49 2011-01-07 00:19:42 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 530000
50 2011-01-07 00:19:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 530000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 42 minutes, and 31 seconds
51 2011-01-07 00:19:48 <xelister> ^-- and that is an 500 usd gfx card
52 2011-01-07 00:19:54 <ArtForz> $500 graphics card
53 2011-01-07 00:20:20 <ArtForz> damn, beat me to it
54 2011-01-07 00:20:32 <xelister> \o/
55 2011-01-07 00:21:02 <marioxcc> however, in order to generate bitcoins in a GPU you must use proprietary drivers, you sell your computing freedom for some bitcoins and put your grain of salt to bury free use of technology
56 2011-01-07 00:21:20 <xelister> marioxcc: lol
57 2011-01-07 00:21:26 <EvanR> you also arent free to use cpus
58 2011-01-07 00:21:30 <EvanR> theres secret stuffs
59 2011-01-07 00:21:43 <marioxcc> I use it with GNU/linux-libre
60 2011-01-07 00:21:50 <EvanR> you also cant have free hardware
61 2011-01-07 00:21:56 <xelister> or just make picture of your hand and get more money then for mining with CPU for a month
62 2011-01-07 00:22:05 <marioxcc> free hardware looses it sense
63 2011-01-07 00:22:20 <marioxcc> you mean free software hardware design specs?
64 2011-01-07 00:22:30 <EvanR> nope
65 2011-01-07 00:22:46 <ArtForz> so you got a FOSS BIOS?
66 2011-01-07 00:22:59 <marioxcc> no
67 2011-01-07 00:23:18 <ArtForz> so your kernel is happily running propertiary ACPI bytecode in a interpreter with full system access
68 2011-01-07 00:23:24 <xelister> marioxcc: hipocryt :P
69 2011-01-07 00:23:26 <marioxcc> the issue with software is naturally can copy it and you need to change it sometimes
70 2011-01-07 00:23:45 <marioxcc> ArtForz: no, it is linux-libre
71 2011-01-07 00:24:18 <marioxcc> xelister: don't you undestand? you can't use copy and modify freele a piece of hardware
72 2011-01-07 00:24:23 <marioxcc> hardware is a phisical thing
73 2011-01-07 00:24:42 <marioxcc> software is information, and that's why the 4 freedoms make sense
74 2011-01-07 00:25:01 <sipa> your cpu has firmware
75 2011-01-07 00:25:04 <ArtForz> that makes no fucking sense
76 2011-01-07 00:25:16 <marioxcc> well, this is a discussion I won't have again
77 2011-01-07 00:25:22 <kiba> most people don't have the expertise to change the software
78 2011-01-07 00:25:24 Bth8 has joined
79 2011-01-07 00:25:38 <xelister> marioxcc: you suck
80 2011-01-07 00:25:39 <marioxcc> there are eassays about the issue in www.gnu.org
81 2011-01-07 00:25:42 * xelister throws rock @ marioxcc
82 2011-01-07 00:25:53 <sipa> that doesnt matter, kiba
83 2011-01-07 00:26:01 <ArtForz> so if the firmware in my NIC is buggy and burned in a ROM I buy a new NIC, if its a binary blob loaded by a driver I cry FOSS foul?
84 2011-01-07 00:26:05 <marioxcc> xelister: classic, to dogde the free software issue with a trolling
85 2011-01-07 00:26:06 <xelister> marioxcc: sure open code and all is nice, but there is also common sense. Noones going to mine with shitty cpu when they have x200 faster gpu
86 2011-01-07 00:26:26 <xelister> marioxcc: you are taking the FOSS idea too far here
87 2011-01-07 00:26:30 <kiba> the only problem is that the 4 freedom run counter to my libertarian philosophy
88 2011-01-07 00:26:34 <xelister> rms, is that you
89 2011-01-07 00:26:50 <ArtForz> and yes, crap like that DOES happen
90 2011-01-07 00:26:52 <kiba> I cannot be consistent if I use the GPL
91 2011-01-07 00:26:59 <marioxcc> xelister: I know you can't efficiently generate with CPU
92 2011-01-07 00:27:02 <marioxcc> that's why I don't generate
93 2011-01-07 00:27:07 <marioxcc> you don't have to do so
94 2011-01-07 00:27:25 <marioxcc> those who accept to surrent they freedoms are those who mine
95 2011-01-07 00:27:38 <kiba> open hardware and open source make sense, if you have a lifestyle that fit within that
96 2011-01-07 00:27:38 <ArtForz> what freedoms?
97 2011-01-07 00:27:47 <kiba> otherwise, most users don't care about the "4 freedom"
98 2011-01-07 00:27:48 <marioxcc> ArtForz: ...
99 2011-01-07 00:27:50 <EvanR> marioxcc: you and stallman are alike, both stuck in early 20th century technological limitations
100 2011-01-07 00:28:10 <mizerydearia> the freedom to be enslaved
101 2011-01-07 00:28:24 <EvanR> copying hardware at low cost is a serious issue endangering intellectual property, along with issues of enslaving your duplicate from a teleportation accident
102 2011-01-07 00:28:24 <marioxcc> EvanR: ethics go much beyond all kinds of technological limitations
103 2011-01-07 00:28:51 <marioxcc> EvanR: at a low cost, not for free, as it happens for software
104 2011-01-07 00:28:51 <EvanR> to limit yourself to software is shortsighted at best
105 2011-01-07 00:29:05 <EvanR> copying software isnt free either
106 2011-01-07 00:29:08 <EvanR> if you go there
107 2011-01-07 00:29:16 <kiba> open hardware projects like makerbots are revolutionizing and changing the world :p
108 2011-01-07 00:29:23 <ArtForz> yep, bits dont grow on trees
109 2011-01-07 00:29:38 <marioxcc> EvanR: you need materials to do hardware
110 2011-01-07 00:29:45 <marioxcc> hardware is composed of atoms
111 2011-01-07 00:29:53 <kiba> intellectual property die, and with it, GPL
112 2011-01-07 00:29:53 <marioxcc> software is information
113 2011-01-07 00:29:57 <EvanR> look around, do you see a shortage?
114 2011-01-07 00:29:58 <marioxcc> independent of its representation
115 2011-01-07 00:30:07 <xelister> marioxcc: you are taking this idea to the extreme, and make it sound moronic
116 2011-01-07 00:30:09 <marioxcc> shoratge?, no, i mean you use them
117 2011-01-07 00:30:12 <kiba> sooner or later, people think public domain is a much more interesting stream than the the GPL stream
118 2011-01-07 00:30:24 <xelister> although
119 2011-01-07 00:30:29 <ArtForz> thats kinda stupid
120 2011-01-07 00:30:42 <xelister> ArtForz: will you open source your miners hw / driver? that would rock
121 2011-01-07 00:30:57 <marioxcc> xelister: I'm used to people which trivialize the issue with words as those, don't worry
122 2011-01-07 00:31:01 <ArtForz> unless you break the laws of physics, storing information does have cost
123 2011-01-07 00:31:20 <kiba> ArtForz: well, the marginal cost of storing information is close to 0
124 2011-01-07 00:31:22 <xelister> your asic driver
125 2011-01-07 00:31:34 <marioxcc> ArtForz: the information is independent of its representation
126 2011-01-07 00:31:43 <EvanR> lets talk about data please
127 2011-01-07 00:31:44 <EvanR> not information
128 2011-01-07 00:31:51 <ArtForz> representation doesnt matter, it's still entropy
129 2011-01-07 00:32:00 <marioxcc> ArtForz: that's what reversible computing is for...
130 2011-01-07 00:32:12 <ArtForz> okay, so we ARE breaking the laws of physics, nevermind
131 2011-01-07 00:32:21 <kiba> violation of the law of thermodynamic?
132 2011-01-07 00:32:26 <EvanR> information theoretical stuff has little to do with copying source code or how much it costs
133 2011-01-07 00:32:36 <sipa> agree
134 2011-01-07 00:32:55 <kiba> copying the source code is the easy part
135 2011-01-07 00:32:59 <kiba> modification is the hard part
136 2011-01-07 00:33:13 <EvanR> use ed
137 2011-01-07 00:33:21 <EvanR> it does that easily
138 2011-01-07 00:33:26 <kiba> worse, some programmers have zero to negative productivity
139 2011-01-07 00:33:36 noagendamarket has joined
140 2011-01-07 00:33:50 <ArtForz> yep
141 2011-01-07 00:33:54 <kiba> EvanR: well, I mean more than just editing the source code
142 2011-01-07 00:34:10 <kiba> but actually acheving some kind of goal in editing said source code
143 2011-01-07 00:34:25 <EvanR> oh yeah, that has even less to do with source code ;)
144 2011-01-07 00:35:36 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
145 2011-01-07 00:36:09 <ArtForz> but yeah, driver blobs can be a PITA
146 2011-01-07 00:37:14 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
147 2011-01-07 00:37:36 <Cusipzzz> question...if you accumulate a lot of coins via a certain address, like EFF,can you prove via blockexplorer that they still have them?
148 2011-01-07 00:37:50 <kiba> yes
149 2011-01-07 00:37:53 <kiba> err
150 2011-01-07 00:37:54 <kiba> no
151 2011-01-07 00:37:56 <ArtForz> well, they could always lose the private key...
152 2011-01-07 00:38:07 <kiba> unless EFF doesn't use them?
153 2011-01-07 00:38:10 <kiba> well
154 2011-01-07 00:38:17 <kiba> they could transfer bitcoin to a new address
155 2011-01-07 00:38:33 <EvanR> that would show up in the block explorer
156 2011-01-07 00:38:36 <Cusipzzz> right but could that be tracked,so if there are no xfers they still 'have them'right?
157 2011-01-07 00:38:54 <sipa> yes
158 2011-01-07 00:39:07 <marioxcc> they could make the coins dance between their addressess on purpuse
159 2011-01-07 00:39:12 <EvanR> and if they send to themselves, they 'may' still have them
160 2011-01-07 00:39:16 <marioxcc> so you loose track of them
161 2011-01-07 00:39:53 <Cusipzzz> i'm saying, for a new application, if someone wanted to 'prove' they have 5,000 coins, they can send them to published address X, and can prove via blockexplorer that they stil have them
162 2011-01-07 00:39:55 <EvanR> crystal clean coins! ;)
163 2011-01-07 00:40:02 <Cusipzzz> saying if you WANT to be transparent
164 2011-01-07 00:40:22 <marioxcc> Cusipzzz: guess so, but who would want to do such thing?
165 2011-01-07 00:40:25 Mad_Vinnie has joined
166 2011-01-07 00:40:37 <Cusipzzz> someone who would want to prove they have X number of coins, to gain trust
167 2011-01-07 00:40:46 <marioxcc> to prove you HAVE they coins don't mean you will SEND them
168 2011-01-07 00:40:53 <marioxcc> *these
169 2011-01-07 00:40:58 <Cusipzzz> AGREE, but it's half the battle, lol
170 2011-01-07 00:41:46 <kiba> half the battle, still a half time more difficult to evade
171 2011-01-07 00:42:21 <Cusipzzz> saying you are running a service, that relies on a certain amount of trust, if you can prove via blockexplorer that you have 10k coins, someone might be more at ease with like a 100 coin transaction, no ?
172 2011-01-07 00:42:34 <marioxcc> no
173 2011-01-07 00:42:53 <marioxcc> you can swindle that way
174 2011-01-07 00:42:57 <marioxcc> and people know so
175 2011-01-07 00:43:10 <marioxcc> hece, a smart observer will not trust such a thing
176 2011-01-07 00:43:21 <Cusipzzz> of course there is still trust involved, but nothing vs. proving holding X number of chips, i'd think the latter is better?
177 2011-01-07 00:43:29 <Cusipzzz> coins even, lol
178 2011-01-07 00:43:32 <marioxcc> well
179 2011-01-07 00:43:36 <marioxcc> personally
180 2011-01-07 00:43:44 <marioxcc> if the other person offers to prove so
181 2011-01-07 00:43:50 <marioxcc> then i conclude he wants to steal me
182 2011-01-07 00:43:53 <marioxcc> else
183 2011-01-07 00:43:58 <marioxcc> I will require him to prove so
184 2011-01-07 00:44:20 <EvanR> uhm, its proof either way
185 2011-01-07 00:44:36 <marioxcc> proof of you HAVE the coins, not you will SEND them
186 2011-01-07 00:44:43 <Cusipzzz> yes, i'm just trying to come up with ways to ease the trust burden here. i think it's a small improvement over nothing, right?
187 2011-01-07 00:45:16 <Cusipzzz> i could be Joe plumber with 0 coins, or publish an address in advance, and xfer 10k coins there. that proves...something
188 2011-01-07 00:45:22 <Cusipzzz> the latter seems better to me
189 2011-01-07 00:46:00 <marioxcc> my point is you can't trust a "proof" which don't gives you 100% coinfidence, because then people which are able to do the proof will do it when they want to steal you
190 2011-01-07 00:46:15 <marioxcc> that's my opinion
191 2011-01-07 00:46:21 * marioxcc back to hack
192 2011-01-07 00:46:37 <Cusipzzz> i agree there are better ways, you can work with mtgox and set up an escrow account with x coins, that he would control and confirm.. but short of that, not sure what can be done
193 2011-01-07 00:46:57 <Cusipzzz> i thought proving ownership is a decent first step
194 2011-01-07 00:47:06 <marioxcc> nothing really
195 2011-01-07 00:47:30 <Cusipzzz> fair enough, thx.
196 2011-01-07 00:47:34 <marioxcc> they help but don't get 100% confidence
197 2011-01-07 00:47:36 <marioxcc> :)
198 2011-01-07 00:48:10 Kiba` has joined
199 2011-01-07 00:50:15 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
200 2011-01-07 00:52:36 chris200x9 has joined
201 2011-01-07 00:52:54 <chris200x9> hi
202 2011-01-07 00:53:05 <chris200x9> can someone help me
203 2011-01-07 00:53:23 <Cusipzzz> chris200x9: shoot
204 2011-01-07 00:53:40 <chris200x9> I've been playing cashcow roullette and its not transfering my bitcoins
205 2011-01-07 00:54:17 <chris200x9> I have them in my checking
206 2011-01-07 00:54:33 <chris200x9> and hit the send to address
207 2011-01-07 00:54:56 <chris200x9> but it's not showing up and it shows still in my checking
208 2011-01-07 00:55:11 <Kiba`> what is a checking?
209 2011-01-07 00:55:34 <chris200x9> Kiba`: http://94.75.220.77:10619/index.php
210 2011-01-07 00:55:46 <chris200x9> it has casino money
211 2011-01-07 00:55:50 <Kiba`> oh
212 2011-01-07 00:55:51 <chris200x9> and checking
213 2011-01-07 00:55:55 <Kiba`> it's casino money
214 2011-01-07 00:56:15 <Kiba`> checking is casino money
215 2011-01-07 00:56:17 <Kiba`> gottach
216 2011-01-07 00:58:30 Cusipzzzz has joined
217 2011-01-07 01:00:02 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
218 2011-01-07 01:05:38 Cusipzzzz has quit ()
219 2011-01-07 01:06:38 <marioxcc> chris200x9: do you run it?
220 2011-01-07 01:07:06 <chris200x9> marioxcc: run what?
221 2011-01-07 01:07:24 <marioxcc> http://94.75.220.77:10619/
222 2011-01-07 01:07:50 <chris200x9> no
223 2011-01-07 01:08:00 <chris200x9> I just found it on the trade page
224 2011-01-07 01:08:00 <chris200x9> it looked fun
225 2011-01-07 01:08:11 <marioxcc> ok
226 2011-01-07 01:08:18 <marioxcc> maybe I made a more complete cassino
227 2011-01-07 01:08:24 <marioxcc> if I do, I will run it as a tor hidden service
228 2011-01-07 01:08:53 * marioxcc don't want to go to prission for a obscure law only 1 in each 20000 persons know
229 2011-01-07 01:09:08 * marioxcc (why i don't either)
230 2011-01-07 01:10:37 <chris200x9> so is there anyway to get them out?
231 2011-01-07 01:11:44 <marioxcc> to get wath out?
232 2011-01-07 01:12:27 <chris200x9> my bitcoins
233 2011-01-07 01:12:42 <chris200x9> or is it like "play money" now
234 2011-01-07 01:12:50 <marioxcc> i don't know+
235 2011-01-07 01:13:10 <marioxcc> oh, no
236 2011-01-07 01:13:13 <marioxcc> it is flash BS
237 2011-01-07 01:13:14 <BitterSweet> why not contacting the casino owner
238 2011-01-07 01:13:39 <marioxcc> what for?
239 2011-01-07 01:13:40 <chris200x9> ok I'll email them
240 2011-01-07 01:13:55 <BitterSweet> to ask them about his problem
241 2011-01-07 01:14:00 <BitterSweet> whatever the problem is
242 2011-01-07 01:14:02 <chris200x9> to get my bitcoins?
243 2011-01-07 01:14:03 <marioxcc> ok
244 2011-01-07 01:14:32 <BitterSweet> if you have a problem with a service, usually you contact someone who runs it?
245 2011-01-07 01:15:11 <chris200x9> yea I thought the might be in here
246 2011-01-07 01:15:24 tg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
247 2011-01-07 01:15:38 <chris200x9> they had an email address and said to come here
248 2011-01-07 01:15:53 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
249 2011-01-07 01:16:27 <chris200x9> thats why I went here, figured it'd be quicker than email but obviously the owner is not here :(
250 2011-01-07 01:16:39 james has joined
251 2011-01-07 01:16:46 james_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
252 2011-01-07 01:16:47 tg has joined
253 2011-01-07 01:17:02 <marioxcc> is there a GIT-wiki=
254 2011-01-07 01:17:05 james is now known as Guest72664
255 2011-01-07 01:18:19 <chris200x9> welp its a moot issue I got bored went back to the tables
256 2011-01-07 01:18:25 <chris200x9> and lost it all
257 2011-01-07 01:18:26 <chris200x9> :(
258 2011-01-07 01:19:24 Cusipzzz has joined
259 2011-01-07 01:19:55 <BitterSweet> I don't understand gambling
260 2011-01-07 01:19:57 77CAAKIOY has joined
261 2011-01-07 01:20:01 <BitterSweet> what's fun in losing money
262 2011-01-07 01:20:42 <xelister> BitterSweet: you can gain
263 2011-01-07 01:20:47 77CAAKIOY is now known as Abhish
264 2011-01-07 01:20:59 <chris200x9> well it was 6 bit coins
265 2011-01-07 01:21:09 <chris200x9> and I had won 4
266 2011-01-07 01:21:21 <chris200x9> so I thought I was on a roll
267 2011-01-07 01:21:30 <chris200x9> evidently I was not
268 2011-01-07 01:21:33 <chris200x9> :P
269 2011-01-07 01:21:43 <chris200x9> only 6*
270 2011-01-07 01:22:20 <marioxcc> duh, gambler fallacy
271 2011-01-07 01:22:24 <marioxcc> ;-)
272 2011-01-07 01:23:04 <chris200x9> no i was working on a bug theory
273 2011-01-07 01:23:14 <Cusipzzz> martingale? lol
274 2011-01-07 01:23:37 <chris200x9> every spin was red on the first spin
275 2011-01-07 01:23:46 <chris200x9> then i closed it
276 2011-01-07 01:24:02 <chris200x9> then first spin next time red again
277 2011-01-07 01:24:20 <marioxcc> it is not a bug
278 2011-01-07 01:24:27 <marioxcc> they may do that on purpose
279 2011-01-07 01:24:31 <chris200x9> must have happend 5 or 6 times in a row
280 2011-01-07 01:24:32 <marioxcc> so you do that kind of things
281 2011-01-07 01:25:11 <chris200x9> with 6 bitcoin (less than $3) yes
282 2011-01-07 01:25:15 <chris200x9> then I bet it all and the firt on wa black
283 2011-01-07 01:25:18 <Cusipzzz> 5 or 6 is nothing.. i have seen 21 black spins in a row, at a casino
284 2011-01-07 01:25:42 <Cusipzzz> people got killed, kept doubling up on red, saying, it must come...and yes it did, when most where broke
285 2011-01-07 01:26:07 <chris200x9> it wasn't in a row
286 2011-01-07 01:26:27 <chris200x9> it was just the first spin every time
287 2011-01-07 01:26:35 <Cusipzzz> hm
288 2011-01-07 01:26:35 <chris200x9> when i closed it and went back
289 2011-01-07 01:27:02 <chris200x9> oh well it's $1.80
290 2011-01-07 01:27:09 <chris200x9> meh
291 2011-01-07 01:27:24 <Cusipzzz> code is something like 'on $spin1 if bet < 5 btc, red, else black'
292 2011-01-07 01:27:25 Abhish has quit (Disconnected by services)
293 2011-01-07 01:27:25 <Cusipzzz> lol
294 2011-01-07 01:27:32 Abhish has joined
295 2011-01-07 01:27:38 <Cusipzzz> waiting for the big score, hah
296 2011-01-07 01:27:41 <marioxcc> hey people
297 2011-01-07 01:27:48 <marioxcc> this isn't a real roulette
298 2011-01-07 01:27:57 <marioxcc> they results are competely predictable and modifiable by the operator
299 2011-01-07 01:32:00 duck1123 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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304 2011-01-07 01:43:26 <EvanR> Cusipzzz: yeah that happened to me
305 2011-01-07 01:43:31 <EvanR> about 13 black in a row
306 2011-01-07 01:43:38 <EvanR> know what i did, kept betting on black xD
307 2011-01-07 01:43:49 <EvanR> because that was my strategy
308 2011-01-07 01:43:56 <EvanR> only one color, no point in changing
309 2011-01-07 01:44:04 <Cusipzzz> once you go black, you don't go back....
310 2011-01-07 01:44:07 <EvanR> lol
311 2011-01-07 01:44:21 <EvanR> i kept doubling my money, it was awesome
312 2011-01-07 01:44:22 <marioxcc> changing from one prediction to another with equal probability is the same as not changing
313 2011-01-07 01:44:42 <EvanR> randomly choosing red or black is equal to only choosing black, so i took the lazy way ;)
314 2011-01-07 01:44:47 <Cusipzzz> maybe the wheel was uneven, and the black slots not as deep as the red
315 2011-01-07 01:44:53 <marioxcc> EvanR: yeah
316 2011-01-07 01:45:13 <EvanR> Cusipzzz: no, that would make the wheel quite a burden on the house
317 2011-01-07 01:45:23 <Cusipzzz> yes
318 2011-01-07 01:45:29 <marioxcc> Cusipzzz: well, that will only show after lots of tests, you don't know in advance
319 2011-01-07 01:45:56 * EvanR maybe should go put a few on black tonight ;)
320 2011-01-07 01:47:00 <EvanR> casino RNGs are funny, they are required to generate a perpetual stream of random numbers which you poll at certain times
321 2011-01-07 01:47:11 <EvanR> which is the same as just dequeuing once
322 2011-01-07 01:47:39 <EvanR> save electricity ;)
323 2011-01-07 01:48:28 Abhish has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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328 2011-01-07 02:31:37 <eureka^> http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html
329 2011-01-07 02:31:40 <eureka^> http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html
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337 2011-01-07 02:57:07 <kartofeln> so... how futile/unfeasible is it to write a miner on top of openGL, as an attempt to leverage GPUs that don't support openCL/CUDA things?
338 2011-01-07 02:57:27 <kartofeln> presumably by writing a very strange shader.
339 2011-01-07 03:02:27 <nanotube> kartofeln: i've heard ArtForz say it's feasible... not sure how useful it would be, as far as how much hash rate you can get, though.
340 2011-01-07 03:03:11 <kartofeln> if it's better than a CPU approach, it's a win for computers that don't have a GPGPU thingy.
341 2011-01-07 03:03:26 <nanotube> possibly
342 2011-01-07 03:03:29 james__ has joined
343 2011-01-07 03:03:33 <kartofeln> it also opens other possibilities. such as non-sucky web-based mining.
344 2011-01-07 03:03:42 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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346 2011-01-07 03:03:47 <nanotube> kartofeln: also a win for proprietary driver refuseniks.
347 2011-01-07 03:03:59 <nanotube> ah hehe true, that too. :)
348 2011-01-07 03:04:30 kermit has joined
349 2011-01-07 03:06:50 fabianhjr has joined
350 2011-01-07 03:06:58 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
351 2011-01-07 03:07:32 <fabianhjr> MtGox is getting near 0.31 this looks really good. :)
352 2011-01-07 03:08:44 <Cusipzzz> try .32 =)
353 2011-01-07 03:09:01 <fabianhjr> There is a high volume: 35K BTC. S3052, are you here?
354 2011-01-07 03:09:03 <nanotube> fabianhjr: it seems you're missing out on #bitcoin-market. :)
355 2011-01-07 03:09:16 <nanotube> ;;bc,mtgox
356 2011-01-07 03:09:16 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.319,"low":0.29,"vol":36200,"buy":0.298,"sell":0.32,"last":0.308}}
357 2011-01-07 03:09:38 <fabianhjr> WOW, lol. BitcoinCharts failed me. Maybe it is the ticker. xD
358 2011-01-07 03:09:44 <fabianhjr> eitherway. It looks good.
359 2011-01-07 03:09:56 <nanotube> heh nice volume... so mtgox made about ,,(math calc 36200*0.013) in fees today.
360 2011-01-07 03:09:57 <gribble> 470.6
361 2011-01-07 03:10:16 <Keefe> ;;seen mtgox
362 2011-01-07 03:10:16 <gribble> mtgox was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 1 day, 12 hours, 8 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <mtgox> EvanR-work: you have to tell me you are doing it and I'll look for the transaction in my account
363 2011-01-07 03:10:32 <Cusipzzz> lol
364 2011-01-07 03:10:43 <Cusipzzz> mtgox too busy with hookers and blow =)
365 2011-01-07 03:10:51 <fabianhjr> xD
366 2011-01-07 03:11:26 <kartofeln> talking of which, did that forum post about selling one's body for BTC ever go anywhere?
367 2011-01-07 03:11:39 <nanotube> kartofeln: doubtful. ;)
368 2011-01-07 03:11:49 <fabianhjr> Anyone ready to get Randall(XKCD.com) involved in Bitcoins?
369 2011-01-07 03:12:03 <fabianhjr> kartofeln: it was genjix's and he is now selling his name.
370 2011-01-07 03:12:17 <kartofeln> ah yes. missed that. reading now.
371 2011-01-07 03:12:27 <nanotube> yea, he ran out of stuff to sell, and is now resorting to body and name. hehe
372 2011-01-07 03:12:42 <fabianhjr> I suggested a long name of each alphabetical letters like Abrams Bruno Charlie Dominique ets. and Santa.
373 2011-01-07 03:13:04 <kartofeln> so we're going from bobby table to straight out buffer overflows?
374 2011-01-07 03:13:37 <fabianhjr> I would really love Randall doing some great comics promoting Bitcoin. I mean, how many geeks read it?!
375 2011-01-07 03:14:45 <fabianhjr> nanotube: can I ask the bitcoin-market bot the latest MtGox trade or something like that via PM?
376 2011-01-07 03:15:59 <newsham> hi.. I'm trying the Diablo gpu miner on a t410s (linux 64bit) and its segfaulting.
377 2011-01-07 03:16:11 <newsham> is that normal behavior if its an unsupported gpu/card?
378 2011-01-07 03:17:47 <fabianhjr> newsham: maybe. Better ask Diablo-D3
379 2011-01-07 03:18:04 <fabianhjr> he is the one behind the miner. :)
380 2011-01-07 03:18:08 <newsham> is that a handle?
381 2011-01-07 03:18:20 <newsham> does he come on this chan? if so, aprox when?
382 2011-01-07 03:18:23 <fabianhjr> That is his Nick on this channel.
383 2011-01-07 03:18:30 <nanotube> fabianhjr: yes you can give it the bc,mtgox command in pm.
384 2011-01-07 03:19:19 <nanotube> kartofeln: haha yea that's a good idea, btw. bid 0.01 btc for genjix to change name to 'bobby tables'... then use that to lure in randall xkcd. :)
385 2011-01-07 03:20:06 <kartofeln> lol. I'm not entirely sure bitcoins need a lot more geek-target promotion as it is..
386 2011-01-07 03:20:17 <tcatm> Yay, reduced bitcoind-patch for js-remote to 4 lines!
387 2011-01-07 03:20:21 <nanotube> how can you go wrong with more geeks, kartofeln ?? :)
388 2011-01-07 03:20:47 <nanotube> tcatm: nice! :) is that relative to svn trunk bitcoin... or relative to latest in github?
389 2011-01-07 03:21:09 <Kiba``> seem to be typical style for bitcoiners to pay people via bounties
390 2011-01-07 03:21:43 <tcatm> nanotube: should work on both. It's against github.
391 2011-01-07 03:22:26 <Kiba``> hmm
392 2011-01-07 03:22:39 <Kiba``> I should finish my novel from NOvember before proceeding to do a graphic novel
393 2011-01-07 03:23:59 <tcatm> I want a removeaccount RPC :/
394 2011-01-07 03:27:12 <Kiba``> hmm
395 2011-01-07 03:27:47 <Kiba``> Khan Academy had managed to teach me a few mechanical tricks regarding math
396 2011-01-07 03:27:50 <Kiba``> not bad
397 2011-01-07 03:28:25 Kiba`` is now known as kiba
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403 2011-01-07 03:54:53 <kartofeln> is there any meaningful performance difference between diablo's miner and m0mchil's ?
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417 2011-01-07 04:16:29 <chuck251> I wonder about that too. Also, linux vs windows, 32bit os vs 64bit etc? has anyone benchmarked these...
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419 2011-01-07 04:17:22 <nanotube> kartofeln: diablo claims his is a couple percent faster. :P
420 2011-01-07 04:17:37 <kiba> Diablo-D3 always claim that he's the best
421 2011-01-07 04:17:47 <kartofeln> k. I read a bit more about it, they're apparently both using the same underlying .cl file.
422 2011-01-07 04:17:57 <nanotube> chuck251: no i don't know if anyone has said that it makes much of a difference... so it's up to you to try i guess. :)
423 2011-01-07 04:18:02 <nanotube> kartofeln: yes
424 2011-01-07 04:18:04 <nanotube> same core
425 2011-01-07 04:19:43 <kartofeln> so.. the -v flag on those things makes it compyte 2 hashes in parallel using a vector type, right?
426 2011-01-07 04:20:06 <kartofeln> is there a reason it stops at 2, rather than 3 or 4 item vectors?
427 2011-01-07 04:24:55 <tcatm> Can I tell git to ignore changes to a single file on commit -a?
428 2011-01-07 04:27:02 acous has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
429 2011-01-07 04:27:09 <afed> cluster gets faster every day :D
430 2011-01-07 04:27:59 <nanotube> tcatm: .gitignore
431 2011-01-07 04:28:10 <nanotube> tcatm: or do you mean, to ignore it "just this one time" ?
432 2011-01-07 04:29:45 <tcatm> nanotube: ignore it always except when I explicitly commit it (it's a settings file where I'd like a clean version in git)
433 2011-01-07 04:31:48 <nanotube> tcatm: ah. well this http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/gitignore.html suggests to use 'git update-index --assume-unchanged' to ignore changes to a file that's already tracked.
434 2011-01-07 04:32:01 <nanotube> i'd man 'git-update-index' for more details
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440 2011-01-07 04:35:43 <tcatm> nanotube: thanks. --assume-unchanged works
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442 2011-01-07 04:38:47 <nanotube> tcatm: cool. :) and when you need to force the update, just 'git add <yourfile>' explicitly prior to commit.
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448 2011-01-07 04:53:22 <tcatm> nanotube: https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin-js-remote
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451 2011-01-07 04:56:42 <nanotube> cool tcatm :)
452 2011-01-07 04:57:27 <tcatm> What's the best way to have a clean git log on the master branch?
453 2011-01-07 04:59:19 kartofeln has joined
454 2011-01-07 05:01:42 <nanotube> tcatm: don't commit anything to master until you're ready... :)
455 2011-01-07 05:01:55 <nanotube> tcatm: do all your 'exploratory work' on side branches
456 2011-01-07 05:02:02 <kartofeln> why is the topic link pointing to an ancient forum thread?
457 2011-01-07 05:02:06 <tcatm> How do I commit a branch to master?
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461 2011-01-07 05:11:09 <newsham> i have ubuntu with an nvidia card. i have the nvidia drivers and headers, but I have no CL/cl_ext.h file.
462 2011-01-07 05:11:15 <newsham> where does that come from?
463 2011-01-07 05:11:36 <da2ce7> nvidia cards generate slow...
464 2011-01-07 05:11:46 <newsham> irrelevant.
465 2011-01-07 05:11:51 <da2ce7> you may be making more heat that bitcoin.
466 2011-01-07 05:12:07 <newsham> irrelevant.
467 2011-01-07 05:12:10 <da2ce7> any recent nvidia drivers have everything you need.
468 2011-01-07 05:12:26 <newsham> i cant build pyopencl because it wants CL/cl_ext.h
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471 2011-01-07 05:12:39 <newsham> which is not present in the nvidia driver dist or the matching -dev
472 2011-01-07 05:13:06 <da2ce7> is there a open-cl dev package you are missing?
473 2011-01-07 05:13:59 <newsham> the nvidia driver comes with opencl files in /usr/include/nvidia-current/CL/* (and matching libs elsewhere)
474 2011-01-07 05:14:06 <newsham> it has CL/cl.h but not CL/cl_ext.h
475 2011-01-07 05:14:56 <da2ce7> I cannot help, any further. I'm a windows boy.
476 2011-01-07 05:15:08 <newsham> thanks anyway.
477 2011-01-07 05:16:38 <da2ce7> http://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/cuda/2_3/opencl/sdk/docs/release_notes_opencl.txt
478 2011-01-07 05:16:47 <da2ce7> there is clext.h
479 2011-01-07 05:17:01 <da2ce7> try making a symlink to cl_ext.h
480 2011-01-07 05:17:04 <nanotube> tcatm: you mean, merge a branch into master? you do 'git merge'
481 2011-01-07 05:17:30 <tcatm> nanotube: yeah, but doesn't that copy the whole commit history?
482 2011-01-07 05:17:36 <nanotube> tcatm: so... sa you're on branch 'newfeature'. you want to merge it to master because it is ready... you do "git checkout master", then "git merge newfeature"
483 2011-01-07 05:19:01 <nanotube> tcatm: ah, for that, look into the --squash option to git merge
484 2011-01-07 05:19:50 <nanotube> tcatm: you could also do an interactive rebase, and squash commits selectively
485 2011-01-07 05:20:08 <nanotube> tcatm: but all that said... there really isn't much need to 'sanitize' your commit history.
486 2011-01-07 05:20:16 <nanotube> just let it be what it is. :)
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490 2011-01-07 05:29:36 <kartofeln> grmf. pyopencl claims to not require boost anymore, but its build process still very much expects it to be there.
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495 2011-01-07 06:33:32 <Diablo-D3> newsham: nvidia NEVER ships up to date headers
496 2011-01-07 06:33:46 <Diablo-D3> just use the ones provided by khronos
497 2011-01-07 06:33:54 <Diablo-D3> or ones provided by mesa
498 2011-01-07 07:03:07 <da2ce7> any big changes to bitcoin since 0.3.19?
499 2011-01-07 07:07:09 <lfm> depends what you think is big
500 2011-01-07 07:32:52 larsivi has joined
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502 2011-01-07 07:42:58 <edcba> a
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513 2011-01-07 08:41:21 <kartofeln> it seems like switching from a 2 ints vector to a 4 ints vector in the CL code is boosting my throughput from 160Mhash/s to 258Mhash/s
514 2011-01-07 08:42:13 <kartofeln> which for an ATI HD 5770 seems rather good
515 2011-01-07 08:42:44 <kartofeln> oh wait.
516 2011-01-07 08:43:20 <kartofeln> n/m. I suck at math.
517 2011-01-07 08:43:34 lucky has joined
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527 2011-01-07 09:12:52 <joe_1> anyone having trouble loggin in to mtgox
528 2011-01-07 09:17:31 FreeMoney has joined
529 2011-01-07 09:18:25 <joe_1> my mtgox account was just blown away fuck
530 2011-01-07 09:19:02 <FreeMoney> what?
531 2011-01-07 09:20:50 <Keefe> all's fine for me
532 2011-01-07 09:21:36 <Keefe> well, other than still waiting for a deposit to process
533 2011-01-07 09:24:34 <slush> ;;bc,mtgox
534 2011-01-07 09:24:35 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.319,"low":0.29,"vol":36400,"buy":0.309,"sell":0.319,"last":0.31}}
535 2011-01-07 09:24:38 <joe_1> i tried both the regular log in form, and the forgot password form. neither form recognizes my username or email
536 2011-01-07 09:25:10 <lfm> try the new user form?
537 2011-01-07 09:28:39 <joe_1> I thought of trying the new user form, but my account has coins in it. If it lets me create a new account on top of the same username, it might complicate the process for mtgox to resolve my issue.
538 2011-01-07 09:32:32 <lfm> my account seems ok over there except I wish the balances were larger
539 2011-01-07 09:36:21 ebel has joined
540 2011-01-07 09:47:11 <joe_1> false alarm i had the wrong username. i'm in now. but the forgot password form is still messed up because it doesn't work if you look it up by email address.
541 2011-01-07 10:25:41 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
542 2011-01-07 10:36:20 davout has joined
543 2011-01-07 10:38:07 <davout> hi
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553 2011-01-07 12:25:38 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,calc 104000
554 2011-01-07 12:25:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 104000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 1 week, 0 days, 19 hours, 4 minutes, and 22 seconds
555 2011-01-07 12:26:00 <edcba> ;;bc,calc 3000
556 2011-01-07 12:26:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 3000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 38 weeks, 4 days, 5 hours, 11 minutes, and 41 seconds
557 2011-01-07 12:26:40 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 100500
558 2011-01-07 12:26:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100500 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 1 week, 1 day, 1 hour, 35 minutes, and 16 seconds
559 2011-01-07 12:30:59 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
560 2011-01-07 12:31:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101447 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1367 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 57 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 17082.23828179
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567 2011-01-07 12:53:33 T_X has quit (Changing host)
568 2011-01-07 12:53:33 T_X has joined
569 2011-01-07 13:06:02 ArtForz has joined
570 2011-01-07 13:06:42 darkskiez has joined
571 2011-01-07 13:06:50 <davout> ;;bc,calc 600000
572 2011-01-07 13:06:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 16307.48285682 , is 1 day, 8 hours, 25 minutes, and 33 seconds
573 2011-01-07 13:07:45 jackmcbarn has joined
574 2011-01-07 13:21:24 RazielZ has joined
575 2011-01-07 13:23:55 RazielZ has quit (Client Quit)
576 2011-01-07 13:27:05 WonTu has joined
577 2011-01-07 13:27:19 WonTu has left ()
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580 2011-01-07 13:40:42 darkskiez has joined
581 2011-01-07 13:50:38 * davout laughs hard at http://www.picshag.com/a-bachelor-of-the-fine-arts.html
582 2011-01-07 13:54:17 <devon_hillard> the pool is at 12.7GH/s, approaching 10% of total cluster speed
583 2011-01-07 13:59:55 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
584 2011-01-07 14:00:20 darkskiez has joined
585 2011-01-07 14:06:41 <davout> yay
586 2011-01-07 14:06:52 <davout> bitcoin-central.net now has dark pools
587 2011-01-07 14:07:12 <davout> they aren't very sophisticated yet but they do the job
588 2011-01-07 14:07:40 Sami345 has quit (Quit: leaving)
589 2011-01-07 14:08:02 <tcatm> davout: is there a minium volume required?
590 2011-01-07 14:10:47 <davout> not yet
591 2011-01-07 14:11:25 <davout> i think 1k or 500 is reasonable
592 2011-01-07 14:11:58 <tcatm> USD or BTC?
593 2011-01-07 14:12:04 <davout> BTC
594 2011-01-07 14:12:22 <tcatm> better 5k ... 10k
595 2011-01-07 14:12:26 <davout> think that's too low ?
596 2011-01-07 14:12:43 <davout> yea i guess o forgot the minimum amount at mtgox is 1k USD not BTC
597 2011-01-07 14:12:51 <tcatm> You don't want your orderbook to look empty ;)
598 2011-01-07 14:12:58 <davout> thats right
599 2011-01-07 14:13:10 <davout> there aren't that much trades so lets fill the book
600 2011-01-07 14:13:16 <davout> :D
601 2011-01-07 14:14:06 <tcatm> I just traded some coins
602 2011-01-07 14:14:11 <davout> yay
603 2011-01-07 14:14:30 Zarutian has joined
604 2011-01-07 14:14:32 <davout> hehe
605 2011-01-07 14:14:38 <davout> i need some work on the charts
606 2011-01-07 14:14:43 <davout> there should be a couple more
607 2011-01-07 14:14:47 <davout> the code is ugly
608 2011-01-07 14:15:17 <davout> and as soon as the first order dispayed in it gets older than 48h the whole line gets removed
609 2011-01-07 14:15:27 <tcatm> I could help you by porting code from bitcoincharts
610 2011-01-07 14:15:30 <davout> in other words bc charts == shitty for now
611 2011-01-07 14:15:45 <davout> i didn't really look into your code, how are you making them ?
612 2011-01-07 14:15:48 <davout> i'm using proto charts
613 2011-01-07 14:15:54 <davout> but it feels kinda shitty
614 2011-01-07 14:16:07 <tcatm> Graphs are rendered by ChartDirectory (non free)
615 2011-01-07 14:16:13 <tcatm> ChartDirector*
616 2011-01-07 14:16:18 <davout> i'd rather user jqplot like mtgox but that means translating ptype => jquery
617 2011-01-07 14:16:23 <davout> or direct svg output
618 2011-01-07 14:16:32 <tcatm> But there's a lot of pre-processing that could be used with other charting libs
619 2011-01-07 14:16:35 <davout> yea, i'd rather use some foss lib
620 2011-01-07 14:17:46 <tcatm> Most important part is one very mighty SQL query for converting trade history into chart-able data
621 2011-01-07 14:18:03 <davout> sql queries are a breeze with arel
622 2011-01-07 14:18:21 <UukGoblin> hrm
623 2011-01-07 14:18:37 <UukGoblin> I wonder if I should produce a VAT invoice for selling bitcoins
624 2011-01-07 14:18:57 <davout> and pay vat ?
625 2011-01-07 14:19:06 <tcatm> davout: is the source available yet?
626 2011-01-07 14:19:43 <davout> rails sql sweetness
627 2011-01-07 14:19:44 <davout> http://pastie.org/1437265
628 2011-01-07 14:19:45 <UukGoblin> davout, I guess...
629 2011-01-07 14:20:00 <davout> i can email you a tarball
630 2011-01-07 14:20:29 <davout> i don't have any private repo collabs slots anymore
631 2011-01-07 14:20:31 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
632 2011-01-07 14:21:01 <tcatm> davout: tcatm@gawab.com
633 2011-01-07 14:21:21 <UukGoblin> if I was going to pay income tax on the income I get from bitcoin, I'd like to get as many VAT deductions as possible... or something... I've no idea about accounting, never had to do it
634 2011-01-07 14:24:13 darkskiez has joined
635 2011-01-07 14:28:29 <davout> well, in france as a company you deduct the vat you pay with expenses from the vat you collect from sales and pay the difference
636 2011-01-07 14:28:41 <davout> which is positive if you're profitable usually
637 2011-01-07 14:28:55 <davout> the problem with bitcoin
638 2011-01-07 14:29:03 <UukGoblin> yeah, that's how vat works in general
639 2011-01-07 14:29:17 <davout> is that if you buy from non professionals you don't get any vat to deduct from your sales
640 2011-01-07 14:29:23 <davout> which is shitty
641 2011-01-07 14:29:52 <UukGoblin> that's only a problem if you buy bitcoins
642 2011-01-07 14:30:11 <davout> also as a professionnal that takes deposits from ppl you could have to get a financial license which requires a 750k EUR deposit
643 2011-01-07 14:30:13 <davout> yea
644 2011-01-07 14:30:24 <davout> i guess if you buy hardware to generate that could work
645 2011-01-07 14:32:56 <ThomasV> davout: is bitcoin-central located in France ?
646 2011-01-07 14:33:01 <davout> yup
647 2011-01-07 14:33:05 <davout> tcatm: sent
648 2011-01-07 14:33:18 <ThomasV> so, will you have do pay this deposit ?
649 2011-01-07 14:33:29 <ThomasV> sorry, this licence
650 2011-01-07 14:33:29 <tcatm> davout: thanks
651 2011-01-07 14:33:30 <MacRohard> register a company somewhere with lax regulation
652 2011-01-07 14:33:45 <davout> yea, but thats pretty complicated right now
653 2011-01-07 14:33:55 <davout> that could definitely be worth it though
654 2011-01-07 14:34:05 <MacRohard> belize and seyshells shelf companies are cheap
655 2011-01-07 14:34:17 <davout> but that would mean people would have to wire funds to panama which could be expensive/sound fishy
656 2011-01-07 14:34:39 <MacRohard> you can often register the offshore companies locally
657 2011-01-07 14:34:46 <MacRohard> and then open regular france bank accounts for them
658 2011-01-07 14:35:25 <MacRohard> but they're still offshore
659 2011-01-07 14:36:18 <ThomasV> did mtgox also pay a similar licence ?
660 2011-01-07 14:36:35 <MacRohard> i don't think mtgox has a company
661 2011-01-07 14:36:45 <davout> ThomasV: i don't think so
662 2011-01-07 14:36:59 <davout> i'm going to look into it
663 2011-01-07 14:37:08 <MacRohard> you don't really need a corporate entity to deal with bitcoin or liberty reserve
664 2011-01-07 14:37:09 <ThomasV> yes but he has a eu account where users can wire euros
665 2011-01-07 14:37:26 <MacRohard> true. might just be a personal acct.. ut maybe he does have a company
666 2011-01-07 14:37:33 <UukGoblin> I'm just worried if I have to pay income tax on my bitcoin income
667 2011-01-07 14:37:41 <UukGoblin> and how to do it :-[
668 2011-01-07 14:37:52 <MacRohard> you just pay the current market price in dollars
669 2011-01-07 14:38:01 <davout> if someone feels like wiring me 1k EUR for 3.3k BTC i can do just that :)
670 2011-01-07 14:38:03 <MacRohard> or whatever your local currency is
671 2011-01-07 14:38:32 <davout> opening an offshore corporation, my wildest dreams are coming true
672 2011-01-07 14:38:34 <davout> xD
673 2011-01-07 14:39:18 akem has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
674 2011-01-07 14:40:33 tg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
675 2011-01-07 14:41:35 tg has joined
676 2011-01-07 14:43:34 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
677 2011-01-07 14:44:25 <MacRohard> 1kEUR should buy more like 4020 BTC
678 2011-01-07 14:44:33 <MacRohard> going by the last mtgox prices
679 2011-01-07 14:45:27 <edcba> ;mtgox
680 2011-01-07 14:45:29 <bitbot> edcba: Mt. Gox: Last(0.322) High(0.322) Low(0.29) BestSellPrice(0.31) BestBuyPrice(0.319) Volume(40509)
681 2011-01-07 14:46:03 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
682 2011-01-07 14:46:24 fabianhjr has joined
683 2011-01-07 14:46:40 <fabianhjr> Hi, sup?
684 2011-01-07 14:46:52 <fabianhjr> davout: thanks for the source. :)
685 2011-01-07 14:47:03 <davout> hi
686 2011-01-07 14:47:22 <davout> MacRohard: yea i guess
687 2011-01-07 14:50:18 <MacRohard> i'd offer to do it, but i don't have 1k EUR available until a couple of weeks time.
688 2011-01-07 14:52:05 skeledrew1 has joined
689 2011-01-07 14:53:13 <fabianhjr> Now the USd per BTC is reaching 0.33 with the insane 40K in volume. :)
690 2011-01-07 14:54:03 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
691 2011-01-07 14:58:16 <EvanR-work> well see how long THAT lasts! ;)
692 2011-01-07 14:58:23 * EvanR-work prognosticates
693 2011-01-07 14:59:08 <MacRohard> 1 BTC will prolly soon be worth $1 trillion USD ;)
694 2011-01-07 14:59:38 <edcba> 'soon'
695 2011-01-07 14:59:56 <MacRohard> hehe
696 2011-01-07 15:00:38 <ArtForz> and how many milligrams of gold is that gonna be? ;)
697 2011-01-07 15:00:41 <EvanR-work> for very eventual values of soon
698 2011-01-07 15:03:41 <edcba> i hope we'll switch from original protocol then
699 2011-01-07 15:04:27 davout has quit (Quit: brb)
700 2011-01-07 15:07:12 fabianhjr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
701 2011-01-07 15:08:02 fabianhjr_ has joined
702 2011-01-07 15:08:26 gavinandresen has joined
703 2011-01-07 15:11:44 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
704 2011-01-07 15:14:44 <sipa> slush: you got 10% of the whole network in your cluster!
705 2011-01-07 15:15:03 <slush> yep I know
706 2011-01-07 15:15:12 <sipa> wow! :)
707 2011-01-07 15:15:31 <slush> tcatm added his 3ghash cluster to pool recently
708 2011-01-07 15:15:49 <slush> (which is behind the big step in overall speed)
709 2011-01-07 15:16:21 <sipa> if they all donate 2%, you earn 1.5 BTC/day through donations :)
710 2011-01-07 15:16:50 <slush> but the majority did not touch default donation settings ;) (0%)
711 2011-01-07 15:17:00 <sneak> is it stream 2.1 or 2.2 that i want?
712 2011-01-07 15:17:00 <sneak> i forgot
713 2011-01-07 15:17:08 <sipa> 2.1
714 2011-01-07 15:17:59 <sneak> my root drive in my mining box died
715 2011-01-07 15:18:08 <sneak> have to reinstall all the stuff :/
716 2011-01-07 15:22:11 Rodrigo_M has joined
717 2011-01-07 15:25:47 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
718 2011-01-07 15:26:22 <Rodrigo_M> hi there ppl
719 2011-01-07 15:26:43 AAA_awright_ has joined
720 2011-01-07 15:26:55 <Rodrigo_M> i'm having a bit of trouble developing for bitcoin, i need some help
721 2011-01-07 15:27:22 <Rodrigo_M> anyone knows or used the MOVE command?
722 2011-01-07 15:28:20 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
723 2011-01-07 15:28:38 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
724 2011-01-07 15:34:00 <gavinandresen> I implemented it-- does that count?
725 2011-01-07 15:34:24 <tcatm> hey gavin :)
726 2011-01-07 15:34:48 <gavinandresen> Good morning tcatm
727 2011-01-07 15:34:55 <gavinandresen> Rodrigo_M : what's your question?
728 2011-01-07 15:36:53 <tcatm> gavinandresen: I made a patch to support CORS
729 2011-01-07 15:37:06 <gavinandresen> tcatm: awesome! Does it work?
730 2011-01-07 15:37:22 <tcatm> https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin-js-remote/raw/master/README
731 2011-01-07 15:37:23 <tcatm> yep
732 2011-01-07 15:37:30 <tcatm> even more reliable than JSONP
733 2011-01-07 15:37:35 <tcatm> and a lot simpler :)
734 2011-01-07 15:38:09 <sipa> gavinandresen: is there a branch in git which supports has the getblock method?
735 2011-01-07 15:38:36 <gavinandresen> sipa: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/tree/monitorreceived
736 2011-01-07 15:39:40 <sipa> oh, thanks :)
737 2011-01-07 15:39:52 <sipa> i used a different one earlier, but things seem to have changed
738 2011-01-07 15:41:42 acous has joined
739 2011-01-07 15:41:42 acous has quit (Changing host)
740 2011-01-07 15:41:42 acous has joined
741 2011-01-07 15:41:50 davout has joined
742 2011-01-07 15:42:03 <devon_hillard> <MacRohard> 1 BTC will prolly soon be worth $1 trillion USD ;) it's already worth more than a trillion Z-USD :p
743 2011-01-07 15:46:40 <gavinandresen> tcatm: is the change to ErrorReply (status 200 instead of 500) needed for CORS? I was careful to follow the latest JSON-RPC-HTTP for status returns and error codes...
744 2011-01-07 15:51:00 bc-noobie has joined
745 2011-01-07 15:52:03 <EvanR-work> whats Z-USD
746 2011-01-07 15:52:15 bc-noobie has quit (Client Quit)
747 2011-01-07 15:53:11 asdf30 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
748 2011-01-07 15:53:23 <davout> zimbabwean dollar
749 2011-01-07 15:53:51 <fabianhjr> Damn, the American Dream Film is a really nice movie. :)
750 2011-01-07 15:55:32 <fabianhjr> Just finish watching it and love it even if it has some small lies in it. :P
751 2011-01-07 15:58:20 <tcatm> gavinandresen: Mhm.. it *should* work with 500. I'll have to see whether I can get a JSON object from a 500 response with jQuery.
752 2011-01-07 16:00:38 <tcatm> gavinandresen: Works!
753 2011-01-07 16:01:01 slush has joined
754 2011-01-07 16:01:53 <gavinandresen> tcatm: great. I'll push a CORS branch to github and submit a PULL request; I like the CORS solution WAY better than JSONP.
755 2011-01-07 16:02:09 <bonsaikitten> there have been 4 zimbabwean dollars as far as I remember, with inlfation putting the exchange between them near 10^25
756 2011-01-07 16:02:10 <gavinandresen> (I think IE will have issues, though....)
757 2011-01-07 16:02:27 <tcatm> gavinandresen: Me too. JSONP caused problems for strings with spaces :)
758 2011-01-07 16:03:13 <gavinandresen> WhoWouldEverUseSpaces?TheyAreWayOverrated.
759 2011-01-07 16:03:50 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
760 2011-01-07 16:03:52 <tcatm> I don't think we need to care that much about IE..
761 2011-01-07 16:04:39 <tcatm> btw, would it be possible to add a mergeaccount or removeaccount RPC?
762 2011-01-07 16:04:42 <gavinandresen> I think I agree. If you can only connect to localhost if you are running IE, then that would be just fine by me.
763 2011-01-07 16:06:56 <gavinandresen> tcatm: mergeaccount would probably be exactly the same as: getaddressesbyaccount <old>, then for each of those setaccount <new>, then getbalance <old>, then move <new> <old> -old_balance
764 2011-01-07 16:07:23 <tcatm> Will the account disappear from listaccounts?
765 2011-01-07 16:07:48 <gavinandresen> Nope. There might still be move's or sendfroms that reference the old account.
766 2011-01-07 16:08:35 <gavinandresen> How do professional accountants handle account merges? I know they do NOT "rewrite history"
767 2011-01-07 16:08:35 <tcatm> Problem is I have a lot of accounts with strange names from the JSONP spaces problem. Would be nice if they could be removed.
768 2011-01-07 16:09:06 <gavinandresen> tcatm: sounds like a job for bitcointools....
769 2011-01-07 16:09:34 <gavinandresen> tcatm: do you know python?
770 2011-01-07 16:09:37 <tcatm> yep
771 2011-01-07 16:10:32 <gavinandresen> take a look at fixwallet.py -- should be easy to modify to replace bad account names.
772 2011-01-07 16:10:39 <tcatm> k
773 2011-01-07 16:11:55 skeledrew1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
774 2011-01-07 16:12:19 skeledrew has joined
775 2011-01-07 16:12:20 <gavinandresen> Yeah, you just need an item_callback that looks for "account" or "otherAccount" keys and does the right replacement... I think...
776 2011-01-07 16:13:43 <davout> hey
777 2011-01-07 16:14:01 <davout> i was wondering about something regarding accounts
778 2011-01-07 16:15:00 <davout> like, there are ways to end up with a balance thats different from the sum of all accounts balances, or even with an account balance thats > to the clients balance
779 2011-01-07 16:15:09 <davout> is that by design ?
780 2011-01-07 16:15:33 <gavinandresen> The design is that the sum of all account balances always equal getbalance. If that isn't true, then there is a bug.
781 2011-01-07 16:15:47 <gavinandresen> ("all accounts" includes the empty-string-named account)
782 2011-01-07 16:15:48 <tcatm> Can I check whether a sendfrom would cause a fee?
783 2011-01-07 16:15:54 <gavinandresen> tcatm: nope
784 2011-01-07 16:16:21 <davout> gavinandresen: well then there is a bug
785 2011-01-07 16:16:26 <davout> :)
786 2011-01-07 16:16:33 <tcatm> Mh. Probably complicated to add as the next run might choose different coins
787 2011-01-07 16:16:49 <davout> let's say we have three A, B and C accts
788 2011-01-07 16:16:54 <davout> each one is +10 BTC
789 2011-01-07 16:17:24 <davout> if you sendtoaddress [address from acct A] 30
790 2011-01-07 16:17:32 <gavinandresen> tcatm: exactly; between asking "will there be a fee" and actually doing the send all sorts of interesting things might happen (block chain re-org that changes coin #confirmations, etc etc)
791 2011-01-07 16:17:47 <davout> you'll end up with +40, +10, +10, and a +30 client balance
792 2011-01-07 16:17:58 <gavinandresen> ... and a -30 balance in the "" account
793 2011-01-07 16:18:11 <davout> hmm nice
794 2011-01-07 16:18:15 <gavinandresen> (sendtoaddress always debits the "" account)
795 2011-01-07 16:18:27 <davout> hmm
796 2011-01-07 16:18:33 <davout> thats what i didn't get
797 2011-01-07 16:18:47 <davout> i don't really like that "" acct but well
798 2011-01-07 16:18:50 <davout> i was just wondering
799 2011-01-07 16:19:17 <gavinandresen> If you don't like the "" account you don't have to use it-- just always use sendfrom instead of sendtoaddress.
800 2011-01-07 16:19:35 <gavinandresen> And always give out addresses for receiving bitcoins that are associated with accounts.
801 2011-01-07 16:19:39 fabianhjr_ has joined
802 2011-01-07 16:20:03 <davout> yea, that's what i'm doing
803 2011-01-07 16:20:19 <davout> for bitcoin-central.net
804 2011-01-07 16:20:48 <gavinandresen> Good, accountants everywhere will thank you.
805 2011-01-07 16:21:15 <EvanR-work> but accountants will hate you for using negative numbers!
806 2011-01-07 16:21:21 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
807 2011-01-07 16:21:22 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
808 2011-01-07 16:21:33 <gavinandresen> Just put them in parentheses and they'll be OK, right?
809 2011-01-07 16:21:37 <EvanR-work> lol
810 2011-01-07 16:22:02 <EvanR-work> accountants are stuck in the twelfth century
811 2011-01-07 16:22:10 <gavinandresen> Hey, while I have a few people here interested in accounts: I think I screwed up the gettransaction API.
812 2011-01-07 16:22:28 <gavinandresen> ... and I'm thinking about a breaking change to fix it.
813 2011-01-07 16:22:47 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
814 2011-01-07 16:22:53 <davout> i'm not using it but i'll give my 2BTC :)
815 2011-01-07 16:23:10 <gavinandresen> The problem: call gettransaction <txid> and you don't get information about the account(s) that were involved.
816 2011-01-07 16:23:50 <gavinandresen> It really should behave like listtransactions, and return a list of Objects that describe what that transaction did to your wallet.
817 2011-01-07 16:24:05 <gavinandresen> Usually that will be one entry, but if you send coins to yourself there could be two.
818 2011-01-07 16:24:44 <gavinandresen> And, theoretically, bitcoin support wacky fan-in/fan-out so even more complicated stuff is possible.
819 2011-01-07 16:25:20 darrob has joined
820 2011-01-07 16:25:31 <gavinandresen> So: I'm thinking of changing gettransaction from returning one Object: { ... stuff ... } to returning an array of Objects: [ { ... } ]
821 2011-01-07 16:26:19 <gavinandresen> Essentially, you'll get the same information you'd get if you call listtransactions '*' and then just grabbed the stuff with "txid" : <txid>
822 2011-01-07 16:27:23 <davout> that sounds sensible
823 2011-01-07 16:27:43 <davout> the more i hear about the internals of the client and protocol, the more i'm confused :D
824 2011-01-07 16:28:13 <EvanR-work> pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
825 2011-01-07 16:29:32 <gavinandresen> There's a zero/one/infinity programming design principle-- either don't do something, support exactly one of something, or support an abitrary number. Satoshi is fond of the infinity option.
826 2011-01-07 16:30:04 <EvanR-work> i dont like the dogmatism of that one
827 2011-01-07 16:30:18 <EvanR-work> there are cases where you want exactly 3 and any other amount is an error
828 2011-01-07 16:30:36 <EvanR-work> doesnt mean it has to be inflexible, but...
829 2011-01-07 16:30:55 <EvanR-work> overly general
830 2011-01-07 16:30:59 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
831 2011-01-07 16:33:30 <ArtForz> well, a fanout of 1 or 2 sounds about right
832 2011-01-07 16:33:46 <tcatm> gavinandresen: what about gettransactions returning something like {$txid: [ .. array of objects like listtransaction .. ]}?
833 2011-01-07 16:33:50 <ArtForz> and why the fuck are we allowing 0-value outputs?
834 2011-01-07 16:34:27 <sipa> if no such tx is known?
835 2011-01-07 16:35:29 <gavinandresen> tcatm: if I'm going to break it, I'd rather it be just like listtransactions.
836 2011-01-07 16:35:49 <gavinandresen> tcatm: oh, wait, I see what you're saying...
837 2011-01-07 16:36:11 <gavinandresen> (missed the $ in the $txid there)
838 2011-01-07 16:36:21 <tcatm> Grouping by txid
839 2011-01-07 16:37:22 <gavinandresen> tcatm: interesting idea. In the common case, it would look like a bunch of information was just repeated.
840 2011-01-07 16:37:56 <gavinandresen> tcatm: in the complicated cases, the outer information would sum up the information for you.
841 2011-01-07 16:39:40 <tcatm> I think that might even be useful for listtransactions
842 2011-01-07 16:40:03 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: I have no idea why 0-value outputs are allowed. I don't see the harm, though-- they trigger the micropayment code, so they're only "allowed" if they're part of a fee-paying txn
843 2011-01-07 16:40:24 <gavinandresen> (at least I THINK they trigger the micropayment code.....)
844 2011-01-07 16:42:42 <ArtForz> yep, they do
845 2011-01-07 16:43:25 <ArtForz> now I wonder, can you create a TX with no outputs at all?
846 2011-01-07 16:43:43 <sipa> good question
847 2011-01-07 16:44:27 <sipa> or one where the gen tx creates a smaller amount than 50+txfee
848 2011-01-07 16:46:31 <ArtForz> iirc thats allowed
849 2011-01-07 16:47:15 <gavinandresen> ArtForz: I don't see anything that would prevent you from creating a CTransaction with zero txouts.
850 2011-01-07 16:48:27 <gavinandresen> I don't see it creating any problems, either.... that's just a pure-fee transaction.
851 2011-01-07 16:49:01 <ArtForz> yea
852 2011-01-07 16:49:04 <gavinandresen> Maybe the Bitcoin Central Bank will decide to do a "helicopter drop" in 2050 by doing a bunch of pure-fee transactions :-)
853 2011-01-07 16:49:09 hacim has joined
854 2011-01-07 16:49:27 <hacim> i noticed in src/build-unix.txt, it says to use Berkeley DB 4.7
855 2011-01-07 16:49:36 <hacim> "You need Berkeley DB 4.7. Don't use 4.8, the database/log0000* files are incompatible"
856 2011-01-07 16:49:40 <ArtForz> yes, use bdb 4.7
857 2011-01-07 16:49:41 <hacim> however, I'm using 4.8 just fine...
858 2011-01-07 16:49:59 <ArtForz> well, now your DB is auto-upgraded to 4.8
859 2011-01-07 16:50:08 <hacim> the database/log0000* files are just transaction logs
860 2011-01-07 16:50:16 <ArtForz> = 4.7 can't read it anymore
861 2011-01-07 16:50:27 <hacim> they are of course incompatible with 4.7, this is the definition of the ABI change :)
862 2011-01-07 16:50:39 <gavinandresen> As long as you don't reinstall a precompiled bitcoin you'll be fine.
863 2011-01-07 16:50:49 <ArtForz> yep
864 2011-01-07 16:51:29 <hacim> ok, so there is nothing about the 4.7 libraries, such as relying on the network API in the internal bdb format of little-endian 4.7?
865 2011-01-07 16:51:35 <ArtForz> nope
866 2011-01-07 16:51:55 <ArtForz> it's just that 4.8 isnt backwards compatible with 4.7 and binary builds use 4.7
867 2011-01-07 16:51:57 <hacim> so, for new installs, why would one chose to use 4.7, when you will need to upgrade anyways?
868 2011-01-07 16:52:00 akem has joined
869 2011-01-07 16:52:14 <hacim> eventually those binary builds will need to use 4.8, and people will have to transition
870 2011-01-07 16:52:20 <ArtForz> why?
871 2011-01-07 16:52:30 <hacim> if the history of bdb is to be any indicator of the future...
872 2011-01-07 16:52:39 <ArtForz> so far the binary builds are 4.7, so going to selfcompiled w/ 4.8 is a one-way street
873 2011-01-07 16:52:40 <hacim> do you know anyone using bdb4.1?
874 2011-01-07 16:52:52 <UukGoblin> hey!
875 2011-01-07 16:52:54 <UukGoblin> just had an idea.
876 2011-01-07 16:53:15 <UukGoblin> you know those guys who do pooled CPU mining?
877 2011-01-07 16:53:17 <ArtForz> when binary build switches to 4.8, recommended version for compiling will switch to 4.8 (duh)
878 2011-01-07 16:53:25 <hacim> why in god's name would anyone want to use 4.7 right now is beyond me
879 2011-01-07 16:53:40 <ArtForz> no one WANTS to, everyone using a precompiled binary HAS to
880 2011-01-07 16:53:41 <UukGoblin> why won't we do a pooled ASIC order
881 2011-01-07 16:53:46 <hacim> ArtForz: the 'binary build' meaning the binaries offered on the website?
882 2011-01-07 16:53:50 <ArtForz> yep
883 2011-01-07 16:53:57 <UukGoblin> order like 100 units among 10-20 people should be cheap enough
884 2011-01-07 16:54:20 <UukGoblin> if we got like 1000 willing people we could probably order the 55nm true asic thingy too
885 2011-01-07 16:54:22 <gavinandresen> hacim: you want to volunteer to organize an effort to make sure 4.8 is supported on windows mac and all the linux flavors people are using?
886 2011-01-07 16:54:40 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
887 2011-01-07 16:54:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 101463 | Current Difficulty: 16307.48285682 | Next Difficulty At Block: 102815 | Next Difficulty In: 1352 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 2 hours, 56 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 16809.13373253
888 2011-01-07 16:54:53 <UukGoblin> oh, nice low next estimate
889 2011-01-07 16:56:19 <nanotube> UukGoblin: someone's gotta design the asic, too, though. :)
890 2011-01-07 16:56:25 <hacim> gavinandresen: it works fine on three different linux flavors that I've tried this morning
891 2011-01-07 16:56:29 <UukGoblin> nanotube, yeah
892 2011-01-07 16:56:33 <gavinandresen> hacim: or, to say it another way: bitcoin uses 4.7 because two years ago that is what Satoshi decided to use, and nobody has put in the effort needed to upgrade. It just hasn't been a priority.
893 2011-01-07 16:56:38 davex__ has joined
894 2011-01-07 16:56:39 <UukGoblin> or perhaps we could chip in to pay ArtForz to give us his :-]
895 2011-01-07 16:56:46 <nanotube> heh
896 2011-01-07 16:56:58 <gavinandresen> hacim: great! so create a patch and recruit some people to see if it works on mac and windows.
897 2011-01-07 16:56:58 <hacim> gavinandresen: it doesn't bother me that other people use 4.7
898 2011-01-07 16:57:10 <hacim> 4.7 is from 2008 :)
899 2011-01-07 16:57:25 <hacim> gavinandresen: all it requires is to build against libdb4.8++
900 2011-01-07 16:57:30 <ArtForz> well, I kinda first want to know if the chips actually ... you know... work
901 2011-01-07 16:57:39 <hacim> which I bet a lot of people are doing already, and dont even realize it
902 2011-01-07 16:57:59 <gavinandresen> hacim: great! so fix and test all the makefiles and submit a patch.
903 2011-01-07 16:58:46 <sneak> hi guys
904 2011-01-07 16:59:28 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, sure, it'd take ages to gather up that many people with cash too ;-]
905 2011-01-07 16:59:29 <hacim> I dont think the problem is using 4.8, the problem is migrating to 4.8
906 2011-01-07 16:59:33 RazielZ has quit ()
907 2011-01-07 16:59:47 <sneak> hacim: people have existing wallet and block databases
908 2011-01-07 17:00:17 <gavinandresen> hacim: so I guess we have an answer to "why in gods name would anybody be using 4.7" ....
909 2011-01-07 17:00:50 <hacim> except that the databases are auto-upgraded to 4.8
910 2011-01-07 17:01:31 <sneak> are they? if so, then fix it :)
911 2011-01-07 17:01:54 <sneak> it would be nice to support whatever libdb ships with redhat/centos
912 2011-01-07 17:02:28 RazielZ has joined
913 2011-01-07 17:02:49 <gavinandresen> ... it would be nice if code wrote and test itself, too....
914 2011-01-07 17:03:18 <ArtForz> iirc bdb automagically upgrading databases isn't "fixable"
915 2011-01-07 17:03:18 <sneak> gavinandresen: i would do it myself if i wasn't busy with Real Work
916 2011-01-07 17:03:29 <sneak> my time is finite, unfortunately
917 2011-01-07 17:05:44 <kiba> why is our wallet file a binary blob?
918 2011-01-07 17:06:45 <hacim> i've got a bitcoind from the pre-compiled binary, compiled against libdb4.7++. I create a wallet with it by starting up the daemon, I let it download all the current blocks. I then run a self-compiled bitcoin, linked against libdb4.8++
919 2011-01-07 17:06:52 <ArtForz> because no one invented XML with commit journals yet? ;)
920 2011-01-07 17:06:54 <hacim> it converts the database to 4.8 format, and things continue to work as normal
921 2011-01-07 17:07:34 <ArtForz> you then start a pre-compiled binary again, whoops
922 2011-01-07 17:08:05 <gavinandresen> Upgrading bdb is WAY down on my list of things I can do to make bitcoin more successful. If it is near the top of your list, great! go for it.
923 2011-01-07 17:08:17 <ArtForz> yeah, I dont see the problem
924 2011-01-07 17:08:51 <hacim> ArtForz: i dont see why I'd go backwards
925 2011-01-07 17:09:31 <ArtForz> well, whatever you like
926 2011-01-07 17:09:58 <ArtForz> imo keeping binary compatibility at least for wallet between as many builds as possible is a good thing
927 2011-01-07 17:10:46 <nanotube> ArtForz: well, fwiw, i once compiled bitcoind with bdb 4.8... only thing i needed to do to go back to official binary was delete .bitcoin/database/*
928 2011-01-07 17:10:51 <nanotube> no problems with the wallet itself.
929 2011-01-07 17:11:26 <ArtForz> well, iirc thats pure luck that bdb didnt introduce incompatible db format cahnges for the main DB
930 2011-01-07 17:11:46 <ArtForz> iirc official BDB docs says they're free to do so
931 2011-01-07 17:12:23 <ArtForz> so I guess using 4.7 or 4.8 doesnt matter really, as long as I can move wallet.dat between em I'm happy
932 2011-01-07 17:13:33 <nanotube> yea well, it's pretty lucky indeed. :) just telling you how it is.
933 2011-01-07 17:15:28 <hacim> gavinandresen: I understand prioritizing that, makes a lot of sense. I will point out that by using 4.7, bitcoin cannot be run on powerpc. So if you want adoption of that architecture, it will need to move
934 2011-01-07 17:16:17 <nanotube> hacim: basically, do some testing with bdb4.8 on mac/linux/win... and if things work, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the next official client release will be built with 4.8
935 2011-01-07 17:16:38 <hacim> nanotube: i've already done the linux. i just dont know anyone with mac/windows to test it
936 2011-01-07 17:16:39 <gavinandresen> iirc, bitcoin has way more problems running on powerpc than bdb.
937 2011-01-07 17:17:02 <nanotube> hacim: unfortunately... i'm on linux too, so can't help you there. :)
938 2011-01-07 17:17:21 <ArtForz> yup
939 2011-01-07 17:17:24 <nanotube> er... s/unfortunately/fortunately/ maybe hehe
940 2011-01-07 17:17:26 <hacim> if i wanted to get testers, would I post to the forum 'Development & Technical Discussion'
941 2011-01-07 17:17:32 <ArtForz> porting bitcoin to a BE arch is gonna be "fun"
942 2011-01-07 17:17:33 <nanotube> hacim: yea that's a good start
943 2011-01-07 17:18:33 <gavinandresen> Whaddya know.... I'm compiling against bdb 4.8.26 here on my mac....
944 2011-01-07 17:18:43 <hacim> i'll note that the freebsd people are also using 4.8
945 2011-01-07 17:18:49 <gavinandresen> (but I don't create the mac builds)
946 2011-01-07 17:18:55 <hacim> based on http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=379.0
947 2011-01-07 17:18:58 <bitbot> HOWTO: Compiling Bitcoin v0.3 on FreeBSD (7.2,7.3,8.0)
948 2011-01-07 17:21:48 <gavinandresen> Speaking of freebsd... there are at least four different sets of people doing linux/unix build stuff. Anybody know about cmake and debian and freebsd build stuff who would be willing to figure out how to incorporate all their good work into the mainline bitcoin?
949 2011-01-07 17:23:54 ebel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
950 2011-01-07 17:26:22 <newsham> diablo-d3: around?
951 2011-01-07 17:27:11 <newsham> gavin: freebsd users can install and run gmake.
952 2011-01-07 17:29:15 <tcatm> gavinandresen: The HTTP server should be made multithreaded. SSL doesn't work with browsers (they keep the connection open)
953 2011-01-07 17:29:47 grifferz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
954 2011-01-07 17:30:44 grifferz has joined
955 2011-01-07 17:32:20 <gavinandresen> tcatm: that's not going to be high on my priority list, either. Browsers keep the connection open even when sent the Connection: close header????
956 2011-01-07 17:32:42 <tcatm> It's probably the SSL layer that keeps it open
957 2011-01-07 17:33:25 <gavinandresen> Have you tried explicitly patching to call stream->close() ?
958 2011-01-07 17:33:26 <tcatm> Opening https://localhost:7332 in chrome stalls the RPC thread
959 2011-01-07 17:34:00 <tcatm> Doesn't help, the browser doesn't even send the rquest.
960 2011-01-07 17:34:38 <gavinandresen> Anything interesting in debug.log? Like is the "pause 10 seconds to prevent brute-forcing passwords" code happening?
961 2011-01-07 17:35:30 <tcatm> Just RPC timeouts
962 2011-01-07 17:36:37 <wumpus> huh, SSL should never keep the connection open, it's transport layer encryption and works like a normal socket
963 2011-01-07 17:39:44 <gavinandresen> tcatm: I just turned on SSL, and it is working for me. You sure you have SSL setup correctly (server.crt/etc in your .bitcoin/testnet folder)
964 2011-01-07 17:40:17 <tcatm> gavinandresen: Have you tried ajax requests?
965 2011-01-07 17:41:05 <gavinandresen> No. I tried loading https://localhost:7332/ in Chrome, got the authentication required dialog, entered username/password and got a proper "Parse error" response, though.
966 2011-01-07 17:42:14 <tcatm> Yep, that works here, too.
967 2011-01-07 17:42:45 <gavinandresen> So opening https://localhost:7332 in Chrome does NOT stall the RPC thread... but Ajax requests do?
968 2011-01-07 17:43:37 <tcatm> Yep.
969 2011-01-07 17:45:51 * davout just deployed polished dark pools @ bitcoin-central.net
970 2011-01-07 17:46:27 <davout> (not to be mistaken with polish dark pools, where the orders you pass just lazily sit around)
971 2011-01-07 17:46:31 <gavinandresen> tcatm: I don't think multithreading the RPC would fix the real problem-- the real problem is why are the Ajax requests timing out.
972 2011-01-07 17:46:50 <gavinandresen> I'm afk for lunch for a while....
973 2011-01-07 17:48:05 <davux> davout: :p
974 2011-01-07 17:48:14 <davux> davout: drinking
975 2011-01-07 17:49:25 <davout> :)
976 2011-01-07 17:55:52 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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986 2011-01-07 18:20:44 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
987 2011-01-07 18:27:43 <mrb_> aaaand newegg is out of sapphire 5970s. didn't last very long.
988 2011-01-07 18:29:33 <ArtForz> yeah, 5970 supplies are starting to dry up
989 2011-01-07 18:29:59 <kiba> bencoder: yo there?
990 2011-01-07 18:30:08 <kiba> MT`AwAy: will you answer my interview question?
991 2011-01-07 18:30:14 <ArtForz> no big surprise, rumors say 6990 in late jan/early feb
992 2011-01-07 18:30:23 <nanotube> kiba: what's your interview question? :)
993 2011-01-07 18:30:38 <kiba> nanotube: an interview that I am doing with MT`AwAy
994 2011-01-07 18:30:48 <kiba> I am almost finished
995 2011-01-07 18:30:56 <kiba> but MT`AwAy is the kind of person who forget
996 2011-01-07 18:31:44 <nanotube> heh
997 2011-01-07 18:32:12 <fabianhjr> kiba: the magazine got delayed. I am going to write some articles publish my own magazine and then go back to the original idea.
998 2011-01-07 18:32:59 * kiba 's work heruistic is now centered around what can get him money
999 2011-01-07 18:35:35 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1000 2011-01-07 18:37:04 AAA_awright has joined
1001 2011-01-07 18:38:06 <mrb_> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/01/07/1559226/AMD-Puts-Out-Radeon-HD-6000-Open-Source-Driver
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1005 2011-01-07 18:46:12 <midnightmagic> is there some way of getting a summary of blocks that are going to mature (and how far away from maturation) from the json interface?
1006 2011-01-07 18:46:23 <midnightmagic> like the gui.
1007 2011-01-07 18:49:02 AAA_awright has joined
1008 2011-01-07 18:49:06 <wumpus> afaik, no
1009 2011-01-07 18:50:10 <wumpus> I don't think immature blocks will ever show up in the json interface at all
1010 2011-01-07 18:50:40 <nanotube> well, listtransactions minconf=0, i think they'll show up
1011 2011-01-07 18:51:13 AAA_awright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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1016 2011-01-07 18:54:50 <midnightmagic> oh.. wait a minute, what's this. PrintBlockTree via -printblocktree boolarg..
1017 2011-01-07 18:55:13 CyanDynamo has joined
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1019 2011-01-07 18:56:48 <EvanR-work> holy crap @ the power of the pool right now
1020 2011-01-07 18:57:00 <midnightmagic> what's it at?
1021 2011-01-07 18:57:04 <EvanR-work> 14G
1022 2011-01-07 18:57:11 <midnightmagic> surprising.
1023 2011-01-07 18:58:16 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
1024 2011-01-07 18:58:16 <gribble> {"hashes_ps": 14111108550, "shares": 2175, "active_workers": 239, "round_duration": "0:11:02", "round_started": "2011-01-07 18:43:48", "getwork_ps": 82}
1025 2011-01-07 18:58:24 <nanotube> yep... hard core
1026 2011-01-07 18:58:42 <midnightmagic> it would be interesting to see the breakdown of participants.
1027 2011-01-07 18:58:51 <midnightmagic> just by number of course..
1028 2011-01-07 18:59:23 rogutes has left ()
1029 2011-01-07 19:00:10 <nanotube> midnightmagic: well i understand that several people contribute multiple ghash all by themselves.
1030 2011-01-07 19:00:45 <midnightmagic> i wonder why..
1031 2011-01-07 19:02:35 <midnightmagic> i mean, good for them, it means that the rest of them can participate sooner, but. :)
1032 2011-01-07 19:04:16 <nanotube> midnightmagic: well, tbh, i dunno. :) if i had 1gh hash power, i'd just run on my own...
1033 2011-01-07 19:04:23 shortcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1034 2011-01-07 19:04:32 shortcircuit has joined
1035 2011-01-07 19:04:39 <nanotube> 1 block per day avg is sufficiently smooth that i wouldn't see the need for further income smoothing.
1036 2011-01-07 19:05:47 <midnightmagic> yeah me too. it occurs to me: would the pool miners be able to *really know* whether the pool manager is in fact 1) distributing fairly (or at least transparently) and 2) reporting success when it happens fairly?
1037 2011-01-07 19:06:59 <newsham> no, and i think the pool owners are up front about that
1038 2011-01-07 19:07:37 <kiba> +
1039 2011-01-07 19:07:50 <kiba> \\+
1040 2011-01-07 19:07:51 <midnightmagic> i knew they were upfront about the distribution; i was curious about the success part.
1041 2011-01-07 19:08:25 <midnightmagic> more on a technical level I guess. could it be checked from a miner's perspective whether the success was legit and therefore detect a hypothetical cheating pool manager.
1042 2011-01-07 19:08:56 <midnightmagic> the shares part would require all the pooled miners cooperatively talk to one another and assume nobody's lying, so not really an interesting problem.
1043 2011-01-07 19:23:59 <midnightmagic> i wonder if there's anyone who consistency mines at a higher difficulty just to show off.
1044 2011-01-07 19:24:49 <xelister> lol midnightmagic
1045 2011-01-07 19:29:57 <TD> given bitcoins potential for rapid growth i'd assume anyone who didn't try and maximize their mining income would be dumb. so not exactly showing off :)
1046 2011-01-07 19:30:32 <midnightmagic> unless they just didn't need the money and had access to those fabled "acres" of computing power you hear about from time to time.
1047 2011-01-07 19:30:52 <midnightmagic> but, i agree, it would be lame.
1048 2011-01-07 19:40:53 <bonsaikitten> midnightmagic: byzantine generals problem
1049 2011-01-07 19:47:29 <EvanR-work> not really an interesting problem indeed
1050 2011-01-07 19:47:36 <EvanR-work> also, P=NP?
1051 2011-01-07 19:48:04 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1052 2011-01-07 19:49:47 luke-jr has joined
1053 2011-01-07 19:50:07 <luke-jr> I can transfer 0.01000001 BTC, correct?
1054 2011-01-07 19:50:13 <luke-jr> since it's >= 0.01
1055 2011-01-07 19:50:14 <tcatm> js-remote now has a homepage! http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
1056 2011-01-07 19:51:04 ThomasV has joined
1057 2011-01-07 19:52:01 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: you mean without paying a fee? Yes, but you need a hacked client to create the transaction.
1058 2011-01-07 19:52:13 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: why? it's >= 0.01 :/
1059 2011-01-07 19:52:29 <EvanR-work> the client doesnt let you
1060 2011-01-07 19:52:36 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: the GUI client and the JSON-RPC interface round to the nearest 0.01
1061 2011-01-07 19:52:39 <luke-jr> oh, the transaction
1062 2011-01-07 19:52:46 <luke-jr> so the block generators should OK it?
1063 2011-01-07 19:53:14 <EvanR-work> what happens if a hacked client sends < 0.01?
1064 2011-01-07 19:53:33 <EvanR-work> no fee
1065 2011-01-07 19:53:49 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: afaik, that would get rejected by all the other clients
1066 2011-01-07 19:53:55 <luke-jr> unless you also generate the block yourself
1067 2011-01-07 19:54:14 <gavinandresen> EvanR-work: yes, standard clients and miners will ignore it.
1068 2011-01-07 19:54:20 <EvanR-work> thats bullshit!
1069 2011-01-07 19:54:29 <EvanR-work> i guess its to deter spam
1070 2011-01-07 19:54:32 <kiba> so...1 BTC is almost worth 3 bitcoin
1071 2011-01-07 19:54:51 <EvanR-work> kiba: that would be pretty awesome
1072 2011-01-07 19:54:52 <luke-jr> â¦
1073 2011-01-07 19:55:01 <EvanR-work> iterate exchange 1BTC
1074 2011-01-07 19:55:01 <luke-jr> that makes no sense
1075 2011-01-07 19:55:01 <kiba> err
1076 2011-01-07 19:55:08 <EvanR-work> 1 3 9 27 81...
1077 2011-01-07 19:55:13 <luke-jr> 1 == 3 how?
1078 2011-01-07 19:55:13 <kiba> 1 USD is worth 3 BTC
1079 2011-01-07 19:55:16 <luke-jr> oh
1080 2011-01-07 19:55:29 <luke-jr> I'd expect to get more than 3 BTC for 1 USD
1081 2011-01-07 19:55:43 <EvanR-work> you used to
1082 2011-01-07 19:55:49 <EvanR-work> was 4
1083 2011-01-07 19:55:58 <ArtForz> was 10000
1084 2011-01-07 19:56:19 <EvanR-work> haha, shoulda got in on that :(
1085 2011-01-07 19:56:29 <luke-jr> one of the bitcoin sites says 0.5 USD/BTC
1086 2011-01-07 19:56:39 <kiba> EvanR-work: just wait a few years
1087 2011-01-07 19:56:47 <kiba> the newbie wishes that they have gotten in there early
1088 2011-01-07 19:58:27 <EvanR-work> maybe i should start a retirement fund, buy 10 BTC per week
1089 2011-01-07 19:58:35 <kiba> haha
1090 2011-01-07 19:59:06 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1091 2011-01-07 19:59:45 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: just hold onto 50 or so
1092 2011-01-07 19:59:53 <luke-jr> if BTC ever succeeds, that will be worth quite a bit
1093 2011-01-07 19:59:54 <arcatan> tcatm: that CORS patch makes me uneasy. if it's going to be merged into the mainline, i think it should be a togglable option.
1094 2011-01-07 20:00:16 <EvanR-work> if theres even a 4x multiplier, im going to want more than 50
1095 2011-01-07 20:00:30 <tcatm> arcatan: Why? It just changes headers so browsers don't complain.
1096 2011-01-07 20:00:40 <kiba> paypal mafia?
1097 2011-01-07 20:00:45 <kiba> what about the bitcoin mafia?
1098 2011-01-07 20:01:26 <kiba> basically a bunch of super-rich bitcoin early adopters from the early day
1099 2011-01-07 20:01:52 <kiba> that now(in the future) run a series of world-changing enterprises
1100 2011-01-07 20:03:07 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1101 2011-01-07 20:04:40 larsivi has joined
1102 2011-01-07 20:04:46 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1103 2011-01-07 20:04:50 * kiba wonders why satoshi is inactive
1104 2011-01-07 20:05:04 fabianhjr has joined
1105 2011-01-07 20:05:26 <ArtForz> pining for the fjords?
1106 2011-01-07 20:06:52 <afed> anyone deployed 6950 or 6970 cards yet?
1107 2011-01-07 20:07:01 <afed> i'm still on the fence about keeping mine or not
1108 2011-01-07 20:07:03 <kiba> my theory is that Satoshi had finally made himself unnecesary
1109 2011-01-07 20:07:13 <kiba> now he's somewhere out in the world doing something else
1110 2011-01-07 20:07:14 <ArtForz> one 6970
1111 2011-01-07 20:07:59 <arcatan> tcatm: i was going to say that it makes CSRF-type attacks easier, but on second thought it probably doesn't change the situation
1112 2011-01-07 20:08:24 <ArtForz> after some kernel tweaking I get pretty much == 5870 perf
1113 2011-01-07 20:08:51 <ArtForz> = another card to move to my gaming machines
1114 2011-01-07 20:11:40 <kiba> mtgox volume is the biggest we have in a long time...
1115 2011-01-07 20:13:59 <ArtForz> yeah, someone bought quite a few btc
1116 2011-01-07 20:19:09 <fabianhjr> kiba: more like in one month. :P
1117 2011-01-07 20:19:57 <midnightmagic> bonsaikitten: there's a very similar problem, where so long as a network contains 50% + 1 reliable participants, under some circumstances all the liars (who themselves might say anything) can be directly identified.
1118 2011-01-07 20:22:38 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1119 2011-01-07 20:23:24 <midnightmagic> it's even possible to do so with only a surprisingly small number of questions put to the whole population.
1120 2011-01-07 20:24:20 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
1121 2011-01-07 20:24:25 <luke-jr> explanatory enough?
1122 2011-01-07 20:27:20 <marioxcc> luke-jr: why you don't start from 1 BTC?
1123 2011-01-07 20:27:35 <luke-jr> marioxcc: 1 BTC is too big, and not a power of 2
1124 2011-01-07 20:27:45 <marioxcc> luke-jr: 1 is a power of 2
1125 2011-01-07 20:27:59 <marioxcc> 2^0
1126 2011-01-07 20:28:07 <ArtForz> 5000000000 isnt
1127 2011-01-07 20:29:06 <luke-jr> marioxcc: but BTC is 100000000 base units
1128 2011-01-07 20:29:30 <marioxcc> luke-jr: I actually consider 1 BTC to be the base unit
1129 2011-01-07 20:29:37 <marioxcc> and the divisions to be that, divisions
1130 2011-01-07 20:29:49 <marioxcc> please don't count from 0.00..001
1131 2011-01-07 20:30:00 <marioxcc> that's an horrible way to mix decimal to hexadecimal
1132 2011-01-07 20:30:28 <ArtForz> so, what's 1BTC/512 ?
1133 2011-01-07 20:31:06 <luke-jr> ArtForz: about 3 TBC?
1134 2011-01-07 20:31:20 <luke-jr> marioxcc: blame the guy who made BTC so fundamentally decimal
1135 2011-01-07 20:31:40 <luke-jr> uBTC is programmicallyl the base unit
1136 2011-01-07 20:32:03 <ArtForz> actually uBTcent
1137 2011-01-07 20:32:12 <luke-jr> â¦
1138 2011-01-07 20:32:24 <ArtForz> yep, microcents
1139 2011-01-07 20:32:43 <luke-jr> ArtForz: so I need to move things over 2 more decimal places and adjust? -.-
1140 2011-01-07 20:32:51 <ArtForz> errr... sec
1141 2011-01-07 20:33:01 <marioxcc> luke-jr: no
1142 2011-01-07 20:33:02 <ArtForz> nope, looks right
1143 2011-01-07 20:33:24 <luke-jr> or you mean uBTC is technically 0.000001 BTC?
1144 2011-01-07 20:33:34 <ArtForz> yep
1145 2011-01-07 20:33:42 <luke-jr> i c
1146 2011-01-07 20:33:44 <ArtForz> which is usually what the SI u means
1147 2011-01-07 20:33:49 <luke-jr> ok
1148 2011-01-07 20:33:52 <luke-jr> I hate SI, soâ¦
1149 2011-01-07 20:34:33 <EvanR-work> mebicoins
1150 2011-01-07 20:34:42 <ArtForz> yeah, thats what I just thought
1151 2011-01-07 20:35:07 <midnightmagic> mebicoins.. good grief.
1152 2011-01-07 20:36:01 <AAA_awright> ...Or we could just use SI units
1153 2011-01-07 20:36:14 <luke-jr> actually, 'mebi' is a great example of how even when forced to use decimal, people will still try to move to a multiple of 2
1154 2011-01-07 20:36:20 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: except SI SUCKS
1155 2011-01-07 20:36:28 <EvanR-work> lets just use base three, it has the highest radix economy
1156 2011-01-07 20:37:02 <ArtForz> nah, too easy
1157 2011-01-07 20:37:10 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Really? I've always found it to be rather simple
1158 2011-01-07 20:37:34 davout has joined
1159 2011-01-07 20:37:43 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you must not do much real-world/practical things
1160 2011-01-07 20:38:10 <ArtForz> how about 20 bits to a mebicent, 105 mebicents in a coin
1161 2011-01-07 20:39:09 <EvanR-work> how about UNIT = avagadros number
1162 2011-01-07 20:39:33 <EvanR-work> how bitcoins are subject to empirical measurements
1163 2011-01-07 20:39:35 <EvanR-work> now*
1164 2011-01-07 20:40:16 <ArtForz> or how about 111546435 base units to a coin
1165 2011-01-07 20:40:24 <luke-jr> ArtForz: bits or bitcoins?
1166 2011-01-07 20:40:42 <ArtForz> that'd be smallprimecoin :P
1167 2011-01-07 20:40:58 <ArtForz> well, excluding 2
1168 2011-01-07 20:45:50 RazielZ has quit ()
1169 2011-01-07 20:54:09 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Uh, just things involving seconds, meters, kilograms, volts, amps, sometimes newtons
1170 2011-01-07 20:54:17 <AAA_awright> I mean, all things that use SI prefixes
1171 2011-01-07 20:55:10 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: seconds aren't SI
1172 2011-01-07 20:55:18 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Milliseconds
1173 2011-01-07 20:55:26 <luke-jr> that's SI hijacking seconds :P
1174 2011-01-07 20:55:38 <luke-jr> anyhow, real world things, not imaginary numbers
1175 2011-01-07 20:55:40 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Also, the second is an SI unit
1176 2011-01-07 20:55:55 hpj2 has joined
1177 2011-01-07 20:56:00 <luke-jr> humans naturally work better with 2, not 10
1178 2011-01-07 20:56:26 hpj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1179 2011-01-07 20:56:30 <AAA_awright> The SI second is defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom
1180 2011-01-07 20:56:30 <midnightmagic> i never liked listening to SI whine about csci convention..
1181 2011-01-07 20:56:39 <AAA_awright> Whew
1182 2011-01-07 20:56:48 <AAA_awright> And the meter is defined in terms of that, and the speed of light
1183 2011-01-07 20:56:50 <midnightmagic> humans have ten fingers though..
1184 2011-01-07 20:57:14 <wumpus> most humans :)
1185 2011-01-07 20:57:24 <luke-jr> 9,192,631,770 is *so* magic
1186 2011-01-07 20:57:32 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: humans have five fingers per hand
1187 2011-01-07 20:57:47 <luke-jr> or rather, humans have 20 fingers aka DIGITS
1188 2011-01-07 20:57:53 <midnightmagic> my friend used to have a fiancee who was a polydactyl at birth. she had six fingers, fully functional.
1189 2011-01-07 20:58:09 <AAA_awright> Well, 10 fingers, 20 digits
1190 2011-01-07 20:58:20 <midnightmagic> surgically removed, so when she held up her hand, it looked like she only had three fingers, but then you'd count them and well how about that, there's four.
1191 2011-01-07 20:58:24 <luke-jr> it's better to finger-count in base 2, than decimal
1192 2011-01-07 20:58:39 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: We can remember about seven things, base 2 is way harder
1193 2011-01-07 20:58:49 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: you have a high opinion of humans' comfort levels. :)
1194 2011-01-07 20:59:07 <AAA_awright> Perhaps we should use base 64
1195 2011-01-07 20:59:12 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: ⦠you realize how illogical that sounds?
1196 2011-01-07 20:59:39 <luke-jr> 16 is just in the sweet spot âº
1197 2011-01-07 20:59:55 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: How so? We can remember about seven things, from any number of "symbols" so the more symbols we can represent numbers with, the more numbers we can count in memory
1198 2011-01-07 20:59:57 <luke-jr> (I'd say 10, but you'd misinterpret that as 9)
1199 2011-01-07 21:00:14 <AAA_awright> base 64 is just crazy because it's too much to /learn/
1200 2011-01-07 21:00:42 <AAA_awright> Some of us have a hard enough time learning the alphabet :p
1201 2011-01-07 21:00:51 <AAA_awright> But, maybe we could have a base 26 system
1202 2011-01-07 21:01:00 <midnightmagic> twenty-two-ty six.
1203 2011-01-07 21:01:00 <luke-jr> base 26 isn't a power of 2
1204 2011-01-07 21:01:06 <ArtForz> so?
1205 2011-01-07 21:01:06 <AAA_awright> No, but it's more than 10
1206 2011-01-07 21:01:07 <midnightmagic> what would aye-ty-six be then?
1207 2011-01-07 21:01:27 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: you're trying to say some weird base in decimal
1208 2011-01-07 21:01:31 <AAA_awright> Base 32
1209 2011-01-07 21:01:43 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: I know, it's funny. :)
1210 2011-01-07 21:01:59 <ArtForz> all bases are base 10
1211 2011-01-07 21:02:07 <AAA_awright> 0-9a-w
1212 2011-01-07 21:02:09 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: regardless, I'm not interested in inventing a new system, merely adopting an existing one
1213 2011-01-07 21:02:09 <ArtForz> unless they're 0
1214 2011-01-07 21:02:25 <luke-jr> if tonal ends up being insufficient, my children can come up with something better
1215 2011-01-07 21:02:50 <luke-jr> ArtForz: decimal is base 9 âº
1216 2011-01-07 21:02:52 hpj2 is now known as hpj
1217 2011-01-07 21:02:57 <AAA_awright> Decimal is base 10...
1218 2011-01-07 21:02:59 <midnightmagic> awesome. base-0. the atomic base..
1219 2011-01-07 21:03:16 <ArtForz> binary is also base 10 (in binary)
1220 2011-01-07 21:03:19 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: in decimal âº
1221 2011-01-07 21:03:27 <luke-jr> decimal is base 9 (tonal)
1222 2011-01-07 21:03:48 <luke-jr> 9 tonal = 10 decimal
1223 2011-01-07 21:04:00 <AAA_awright> This is why no one has heard of tonal
1224 2011-01-07 21:04:12 <AAA_awright> 9 != 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+!+1
1225 2011-01-07 21:04:18 <AAA_awright> gah
1226 2011-01-07 21:04:35 <kartofeln> the special tonal digits on that wiki page don't render for me.
1227 2011-01-07 21:04:38 <ArtForz> !1!one ?
1228 2011-01-07 21:04:38 <kartofeln> I'm not tonal enough.
1229 2011-01-07 21:04:40 <marioxcc> luke-jr: 9 tonal?
1230 2011-01-07 21:04:46 <marioxcc> it should be 9 decimal too
1231 2011-01-07 21:04:50 <marioxcc> unless you add a digit
1232 2011-01-07 21:04:57 <luke-jr> marioxcc: no, there is a digit between 8 and 9 in tonal
1233 2011-01-07 21:05:08 <luke-jr> kartofeln: see the link to a couple of fonts
1234 2011-01-07 21:05:09 <marioxcc> why so?
1235 2011-01-07 21:05:16 <AAA_awright> Because someone wanted to be stupid
1236 2011-01-07 21:05:23 <luke-jr> marioxcc: the higher-valued digits are inverted forms of the lower-valued
1237 2011-01-07 21:05:23 <marioxcc> luke-jr: can't you use 0-9a-f?
1238 2011-01-07 21:05:27 <ArtForz> well, so it's different and special(tm), duh
1239 2011-01-07 21:05:27 <luke-jr> marioxcc: 9 is a inverted 6
1240 2011-01-07 21:05:36 <marioxcc> duh
1241 2011-01-07 21:05:37 <luke-jr> marioxcc: I'm not inventing anything
1242 2011-01-07 21:05:45 <afed> 3 is an inverted
1243 2011-01-07 21:05:47 <afed> E?
1244 2011-01-07 21:05:53 <luke-jr> E is more square
1245 2011-01-07 21:06:09 <marioxcc> it is completely square on my font (terminus)
1246 2011-01-07 21:06:20 <luke-jr> exactly
1247 2011-01-07 21:06:23 <luke-jr> 3 isn't square
1248 2011-01-07 21:06:35 <luke-jr> nor is î§
1249 2011-01-07 21:06:46 <marioxcc> anyway, why have you to use new digits for your base-16 system?
1250 2011-01-07 21:06:52 <marioxcc> just use the existing one 0-9A-F
1251 2011-01-07 21:07:00 <AAA_awright> I like that idea
1252 2011-01-07 21:07:01 <marioxcc> :)
1253 2011-01-07 21:07:08 <AAA_awright> And you can use base 32 or base64 with that too
1254 2011-01-07 21:07:10 <luke-jr> I presume it uses new digits because A-F are letters
1255 2011-01-07 21:07:13 <midnightmagic> eff-ty seven.
1256 2011-01-07 21:07:14 <kartofeln> 1862.. darn that's old skewl.
1257 2011-01-07 21:07:30 <marioxcc> luke-jr: what if they're letter?
1258 2011-01-07 21:07:40 <midnightmagic> bee-ty eee.
1259 2011-01-07 21:07:41 <marioxcc> their meaning depends solely on your interpretation
1260 2011-01-07 21:07:43 <luke-jr> marioxcc: again, I'm not interested in inventing something new
1261 2011-01-07 21:07:46 <midnightmagic> LOL i love it.
1262 2011-01-07 21:07:52 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Where have you been in computer science engineering for the last four decades?
1263 2011-01-07 21:08:00 <AAA_awright> Hexadecimal is nothing new
1264 2011-01-07 21:08:08 <marioxcc> luke-jr: the hexadecimal system using 0 to 9 as decimal and first 6 is very old
1265 2011-01-07 21:08:10 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: newer than tonal if it's only 4 decades
1266 2011-01-07 21:08:15 <marioxcc> it is also here alredy
1267 2011-01-07 21:08:28 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: What about it?
1268 2011-01-07 21:08:46 <midnightmagic> it's just a convenience that arose from the nature of computer hardware that's all.
1269 2011-01-07 21:08:46 <marioxcc> the tonal system is barely used, maybe if you use the existing hex nomenclature :)
1270 2011-01-07 21:08:50 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: Tonal is almost 15 decades
1271 2011-01-07 21:09:03 <AAA_awright> So?
1272 2011-01-07 21:09:18 <AAA_awright> It's nothing new, neither is hexadecimal, period.
1273 2011-01-07 21:09:25 <ArtForz> and base12 is quite a bit older than that
1274 2011-01-07 21:09:25 <kartofeln> dude, the tonal book itself acknowledges that base 16 is pimp
1275 2011-01-07 21:09:34 <luke-jr> â¦
1276 2011-01-07 21:09:39 <luke-jr> pimp?
1277 2011-01-07 21:09:48 <newsham> its a technical term, luke
1278 2011-01-07 21:09:53 <kartofeln> "The number 16 admit binary division to an infinite extent, and would, therefore be the most suitable number as a base for arithmetic, weight, measure, and coins."
1279 2011-01-07 21:09:55 <kartofeln> aka pimp.
1280 2011-01-07 21:10:20 <marioxcc> well, that's true for every positional systen
1281 2011-01-07 21:10:22 <kartofeln> (page 10)
1282 2011-01-07 21:10:24 <marioxcc> *system
1283 2011-01-07 21:10:29 <luke-jr> marioxcc: uh, no
1284 2011-01-07 21:10:41 <newsham> remember the maxim "pimps up hoes down"
1285 2011-01-07 21:10:44 <marioxcc> why not?
1286 2011-01-07 21:10:49 <luke-jr> decimal does NOT admit binary division infinitely in that way
1287 2011-01-07 21:10:55 <EvanR-work> 1000 ten can be indefinitely divided in tenths!
1288 2011-01-07 21:11:01 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1289 2011-01-07 21:11:06 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: but humans don't work in tenths
1290 2011-01-07 21:11:10 <EvanR-work> yes they do
1291 2011-01-07 21:11:14 <EvanR-work> sorry
1292 2011-01-07 21:11:22 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: try dividing anything into ten equal measurements without a guide
1293 2011-01-07 21:11:22 sgornick has joined
1294 2011-01-07 21:11:29 <AAA_awright> Well obviously we do otherwise it wouldn't have been created my multiple independent cultures
1295 2011-01-07 21:11:42 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: it wasn't.
1296 2011-01-07 21:11:47 <newsham> luke: easy, divide into 5 equal portions then split each portion in half
1297 2011-01-07 21:11:48 <AAA_awright> Your arugement is that it's not an economic system
1298 2011-01-07 21:11:52 <EvanR-work> that doesnt prove anything, not including my ability to dividing things in thirds and fifths
1299 2011-01-07 21:12:03 <luke-jr> newsham: good luck doing the division into 5 too
1300 2011-01-07 21:12:08 <AAA_awright> Base 10 doesn't have a repetitive pattern when you double it
1301 2011-01-07 21:12:11 <newsham> thanks for the luck.
1302 2011-01-07 21:12:20 <EvanR-work> | | | | | |, five fifths
1303 2011-01-07 21:12:22 <EvanR-work> bitch
1304 2011-01-07 21:12:22 <AAA_awright> Nor does any base not a power of 2
1305 2011-01-07 21:12:41 <luke-jr> lol @ EvanR-work
1306 2011-01-07 21:12:48 <newsham> the only proper base is e, aaawrite
1307 2011-01-07 21:13:05 <EvanR-work> AAA_awright: definite repetitive pattern
1308 2011-01-07 21:13:05 <marioxcc> base i?
1309 2011-01-07 21:13:07 <ArtForz> yeah, working base e is just natural
1310 2011-01-07 21:13:16 <EvanR-work> define*
1311 2011-01-07 21:13:41 <kartofeln> so wait.. the tonal system is a base 16 system?
1312 2011-01-07 21:13:50 <edcba> why the fuck are you talking about number bases ?
1313 2011-01-07 21:13:54 fabianhjr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1314 2011-01-07 21:14:04 <EvanR-work> edcba: luke-jr thinks decimal is stupid
1315 2011-01-07 21:14:07 <AAA_awright> EvanR-work: Doubling a number in x translates 1=>2, 2=>4, 4=>8, 8=>1, and may add a zero
1316 2011-01-07 21:14:22 <luke-jr> kartofeln: base (16 decimal)
1317 2011-01-07 21:14:29 <edcba> of course decimal is some arbitrary base because we have 10 fingers
1318 2011-01-07 21:14:38 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
1319 2011-01-07 21:14:40 <edcba> like months in year, number of days per week etc
1320 2011-01-07 21:14:47 <AAA_awright> EvanR-work: Doubling a number in x translates 1=>2; 2=>4; 4=>8; 8=>1, and appends a zero; (and other carry-over operations)
1321 2011-01-07 21:14:54 <newsham> i have 11 fingers
1322 2011-01-07 21:14:55 <luke-jr> edcba: there are 10 (16 deci) Tonal months in a year âº
1323 2011-01-07 21:15:02 <EvanR-work> who cares how you write it, numbers are still numbers
1324 2011-01-07 21:15:09 <EvanR-work> use number sense
1325 2011-01-07 21:15:19 <EvanR-work> thats why were good at base 2
1326 2011-01-07 21:15:29 <kartofeln> alright. still reading.. saying the tonal numbers out loud makes me feel like I'm swearing up and down on a firefly class ship.
1327 2011-01-07 21:15:30 <AAA_awright> You want to double base 10? 1=>2=>4=>8=>16=>32=>64=>128=>256, there is never a trailing zero ever
1328 2011-01-07 21:15:37 <kartofeln> sangotonsu suton gotonhu!
1329 2011-01-07 21:15:48 <newsham> aaa: try multiplying by powers of 10 in base2
1330 2011-01-07 21:15:50 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you're using decimal there though
1331 2011-01-07 21:16:03 <AAA_awright> Of course I am, I just said base 10
1332 2011-01-07 21:16:03 <newsham> what is 1/10th in base 2 again?
1333 2011-01-07 21:16:11 <edcba> so what is the debate ?
1334 2011-01-07 21:16:15 <AAA_awright> newsham: What is 1/3rd in base 10 again?
1335 2011-01-07 21:16:39 <ArtForz> 1/1010 and 1/3
1336 2011-01-07 21:16:40 <edcba> we could use base 2*3*5*7*11*13....
1337 2011-01-07 21:16:54 <AAA_awright> edcba: That's what 360 is supposed to be
1338 2011-01-07 21:16:58 <newsham> aaa: exactly
1339 2011-01-07 21:17:26 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: but it isn'tâ¦
1340 2011-01-07 21:17:32 <midnightmagic> oh let him be, he's just advocating it. who are we to say whether it's a good idea or not?
1341 2011-01-07 21:17:35 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Decimal is base 10 by definition
1342 2011-01-07 21:17:47 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: Tonal is base 10 by definition :D
1343 2011-01-07 21:17:47 <EvanR-work> so is binary
1344 2011-01-07 21:17:48 <AAA_awright> I mean, unless you are talking about decimal points in non-base-10 systems
1345 2011-01-07 21:17:51 <EvanR-work> lol
1346 2011-01-07 21:17:54 <EvanR-work> TEN
1347 2011-01-07 21:17:55 <EvanR-work> dammit
1348 2011-01-07 21:17:57 <ArtForz> any base is base 10 by definition, expressed in that base
1349 2011-01-07 21:17:58 <newsham> you mean 10 sub 10
1350 2011-01-07 21:17:59 <edcba> any base is base 10 in its base
1351 2011-01-07 21:18:02 <luke-jr> TON
1352 2011-01-07 21:18:10 <EvanR-work> 10 times 10 is 100!
1353 2011-01-07 21:18:11 <AAA_awright> No, the digits 0-9 are base 10 by definition UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED
1354 2011-01-07 21:18:11 <EvanR-work> lol
1355 2011-01-07 21:18:13 <newsham> there are 10 types of people in the world..
1356 2011-01-07 21:18:16 <AAA_awright> Stop playing stupid please
1357 2011-01-07 21:18:19 <newsham> those who understand binary and those who dont...
1358 2011-01-07 21:18:47 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: no
1359 2011-01-07 21:19:02 <newsham> men are from mars, aaa is from venus
1360 2011-01-07 21:19:16 <edcba> newsham: and those who don't understand dichotomy
1361 2011-01-07 21:19:18 <ArtForz> 9699690
1362 2011-01-07 21:19:26 <AAA_awright> 66 = x42 = 42_16 (x meaning hex, meaning base 16)
1363 2011-01-07 21:19:30 marioxcc has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
1364 2011-01-07 21:19:39 <newsham> my favorite number is 11 (any base)
1365 2011-01-07 21:20:19 <AAA_awright> _ meaning subscript, pronounced "sub" or (in this case) "base"
1366 2011-01-07 21:20:24 <newsham> i also have a fondness for hashes in bsae 2 with a number of leading zero bits.
1367 2011-01-07 21:21:10 <midnightmagic> newsham: incredible! I do too! small world..
1368 2011-01-07 21:21:29 <midnightmagic> \o
1369 2011-01-07 21:21:29 <ArtForz> I prefer trailing zero bits
1370 2011-01-07 21:21:36 <newsham> also walks in the park and sunsets
1371 2011-01-07 21:21:49 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Says who? That's the definition, by definition (Use of the digits 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 implies base 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 unless otherwise specified)
1372 2011-01-07 21:21:54 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That good enough for yuo?
1373 2011-01-07 21:21:56 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: nope
1374 2011-01-07 21:22:13 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: You bear the burden of disproving that otherwise I'm right
1375 2011-01-07 21:22:15 <EvanR-work> do you go into every channel and advocate base sixteen
1376 2011-01-07 21:22:24 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: wrong
1377 2011-01-07 21:22:33 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Ditto
1378 2011-01-07 21:22:44 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: you have the burden until you give some evidence suggestign you
1379 2011-01-07 21:22:45 <newsham> you say "1+" I say "S"
1380 2011-01-07 21:22:45 <luke-jr> 're right
1381 2011-01-07 21:22:54 <lfm> i like base 60
1382 2011-01-07 21:22:54 <newsham> unary ftw
1383 2011-01-07 21:22:56 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: not every
1384 2011-01-07 21:23:07 <edcba> lfm: you want to fuck 10 years girl ?
1385 2011-01-07 21:23:15 <newsham> Z + x = x; (S x) + y = S (x + y)
1386 2011-01-07 21:23:26 <davout> edcba: 0xLOL
1387 2011-01-07 21:23:26 <newsham> ebcda: which base?
1388 2011-01-07 21:23:28 <lfm> edcba no, are you selling your sister?
1389 2011-01-07 21:23:28 <midnightmagic> whoa, aaaaand I'm out.
1390 2011-01-07 21:23:35 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: 0-9 are digits. Digit MEANS "ten", as in 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
1391 2011-01-07 21:23:37 <ArtForz> base 60 fucking rules
1392 2011-01-07 21:23:39 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: luke-jr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_digit
1393 2011-01-07 21:23:51 <AAA_awright> ArtForz++
1394 2011-01-07 21:24:05 <newsham> xkcd dating rule still applies
1395 2011-01-07 21:24:16 <edcba> digit means ten as i have 10 fingers...
1396 2011-01-07 21:24:44 <lfm> i have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs
1397 2011-01-07 21:24:55 <newsham> for those with mit.edu/scratch installed http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/scratch/xkcd.sb
1398 2011-01-07 21:25:06 <luke-jr> edcba: humans have twenty digits
1399 2011-01-07 21:25:13 <newsham> are toes digits?
1400 2011-01-07 21:25:16 <luke-jr> yes
1401 2011-01-07 21:25:17 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: If I assert something has a particular definition that's your cue to go do a dictionary or encyclopedia instead of waiting for me to provide it for you
1402 2011-01-07 21:25:32 <newsham> oops, i meant scratch.mit.edu
1403 2011-01-07 21:26:03 <lfm> so you should use binary to count up to 1024 on the digits of your hands
1404 2011-01-07 21:26:08 <newsham> i'm sure this is all terribly important to future bitcoin development
1405 2011-01-07 21:26:28 <newsham> lfm: who hasnt done that before?
1406 2011-01-07 21:26:38 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: fine, my dictionary is not decimal-biased
1407 2011-01-07 21:26:52 <luke-jr> lfm: I count to 256
1408 2011-01-07 21:27:00 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: If you can't find the definition you can ask me where I found the definition, but you have to do that first _before_ you can say I'm wrong
1409 2011-01-07 21:27:01 <luke-jr> lfm: using all 5 fingers as digits is impractical IMO
1410 2011-01-07 21:27:12 <luke-jr> digit 1b : one of the elements that combine to form numbers in a system other than the decimal system
1411 2011-01-07 21:27:38 <lfm> luke-jr I am surprised you have made a logical and well thought out argument!
1412 2011-01-07 21:28:16 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Also, we're communicating, right? That means we are using /common/ definitions. It doesn't make any sense for you to assume that your dictionary with a distribution of 1 is the definition you should use when every single other person will use the same word with a different definition
1413 2011-01-07 21:28:47 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: Merriam-Webster is only used by me?
1414 2011-01-07 21:28:54 <luke-jr> strange, being KDE's default, I'd expect more users
1415 2011-01-07 21:29:01 Rodrigo_M has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1416 2011-01-07 21:29:05 <newsham> you can keep track of up to 10 unique decimal digits on your hands
1417 2011-01-07 21:29:06 <AAA_awright> I use gnome you insensitive clod
1418 2011-01-07 21:29:13 <AAA_awright> :p
1419 2011-01-07 21:29:14 <lfm> aaa_awright ya, we should just burn all those non-cantonese dictionaries cuz they dont have enuf folowers
1420 2011-01-07 21:29:21 <luke-jr> newsham: 1024
1421 2011-01-07 21:29:32 <newsham> there arent 1024 decimal digits
1422 2011-01-07 21:29:50 <luke-jr> I question any hand digits being decimal :P
1423 2011-01-07 21:29:56 <edcba> there are 2 decimal fucking trolls
1424 2011-01-07 21:29:57 <luke-jr> my fingers don't look like Arabic symbols
1425 2011-01-07 21:30:56 <lfm> if your fingers are inherently base (9+1) then which one is finger 7?
1426 2011-01-07 21:31:40 <midnightmagic> edcba: sounds like a good joke! did they walk into a bar?
1427 2011-01-07 21:31:51 <ArtForz> edcba: pics or it didn't happen
1428 2011-01-07 21:32:08 <luke-jr> bases 6, 2, and 16 are all superior to base 10 for finger-counting
1429 2011-01-07 21:32:19 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Depends, are you a programmer or not?
1430 2011-01-07 21:32:26 <AAA_awright> lfm: Depends, are you a programmer or not?
1431 2011-01-07 21:32:40 <lfm> um yes
1432 2011-01-07 21:33:01 <AAA_awright> Of course I mean 0-indexing
1433 2011-01-07 21:33:06 <lfm> base 60 is still best, we all use it all the time for clocks and angles
1434 2011-01-07 21:33:11 <luke-jr> lfm: are you little or big endian?
1435 2011-01-07 21:33:13 <AAA_awright> Which isn't really base 60
1436 2011-01-07 21:33:34 <AAA_awright> It's just atomising things by 60
1437 2011-01-07 21:33:43 <ArtForz> you forgot 12
1438 2011-01-07 21:33:43 <AAA_awright> Which is fine because 60 is a cool number
1439 2011-01-07 21:33:50 <luke-jr> no, it's base 60 written in base 10
1440 2011-01-07 21:34:01 <luke-jr> but I don't use it for time âº
1441 2011-01-07 21:34:04 <luke-jr> I use tonal time too
1442 2011-01-07 21:34:13 <luke-jr> and tonal angles, etc
1443 2011-01-07 21:34:20 <lfm> if we were babylonians we would use 60 different symbols for base 60 coiunting
1444 2011-01-07 21:34:28 <AAA_awright> That would be better
1445 2011-01-07 21:36:45 * davout wonders how to advertise that bitcoin-central.net now features delicious dark pools...
1446 2011-01-07 21:37:13 <luke-jr> davout: does it support TBC?
1447 2011-01-07 21:38:12 <kartofeln> luke, do you seriously think BTC should widely adopt the tonal system?
1448 2011-01-07 21:38:40 <luke-jr> kartofeln: I think both systems should run in parallel until Tonal adopted as a whole
1449 2011-01-07 21:39:03 <kartofeln> you realize it was basically laughed at when written, and couldn't get published anywhere, right?
1450 2011-01-07 21:39:22 <kartofeln> are you sure that's the kind of momentum you want to attach to bitcoin?
1451 2011-01-07 21:40:22 <kiba> ignorance laughter ridiciule violence defeat
1452 2011-01-07 21:40:34 <EvanR-work> davout: you just did ;)
1453 2011-01-07 21:40:40 <luke-jr> kartofeln: wouldn't get published *at no charge* anywhere
1454 2011-01-07 21:40:52 <midnightmagic> oh no you di'int! you just ben Gandhi'd!
1455 2011-01-07 21:41:20 <kartofeln> I mean.. I'm sure you read the book.. it's basically hexadecimal with new symbols, silly names and force-fed into every aspect of life where it might or might not belong.
1456 2011-01-07 21:41:50 <kiba> Ignorance, Ridicule, Violence, Defeat
1457 2011-01-07 21:42:06 <kartofeln> Tonal never got its day of violence though. tough break.
1458 2011-01-07 21:42:35 <kiba> we're mostly in the Igorance stage
1459 2011-01-07 21:42:40 <ThomasV> davout: when will we be allowed to login without chaptcha
1460 2011-01-07 21:42:46 <davout> luke-jt: TBC ?
1461 2011-01-07 21:42:51 <midnightmagic> gah.. is it unusual to generate two blocks within 16 seconds of one another?
1462 2011-01-07 21:42:55 <luke-jr> davout: Tonal BitCoins
1463 2011-01-07 21:43:05 <kiba> midnightmagic: it's mere probabilities
1464 2011-01-07 21:43:15 <luke-jr> davout: 10000 (65536 decimal) base unit
1465 2011-01-07 21:43:16 <davout> ThomasV: when i implement decent user preferences
1466 2011-01-07 21:43:31 <kiba> davout: pay in bitcoin for instant login!
1467 2011-01-07 21:43:33 Diablo-D3 has joined
1468 2011-01-07 21:43:39 <davout> kiba: lol
1469 2011-01-07 21:43:56 <davout> ThomasV: session doesn't expire yet, so do it just once on a computer you trust
1470 2011-01-07 21:44:05 <luke-jr> davout: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
1471 2011-01-07 21:44:20 <ThomasV> it did expire a few times on my puta
1472 2011-01-07 21:44:34 <kiba> did you clear your cookies after viewing porn?
1473 2011-01-07 21:44:39 <ThomasV> lol
1474 2011-01-07 21:45:18 <ThomasV> davout: I do not like dark pools
1475 2011-01-07 21:45:50 <ThomasV> not having them was a good point in favor of bc
1476 2011-01-07 21:45:58 <kiba> if there is no dark pool on bitcoin central, there will one elsewhere
1477 2011-01-07 21:46:28 <ThomasV> there are some already at mtgox
1478 2011-01-07 21:51:44 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
1479 2011-01-07 21:55:40 <EvanR-work> ThomasV: why do you not like them?
1480 2011-01-07 21:56:04 <ThomasV> because I like transparency :-)
1481 2011-01-07 21:56:22 <ThomasV> hmm, actually TBC should mean TeraBitCoin, that's 10^12 bitcoins
1482 2011-01-07 21:56:25 <wumpus> ThomasV: the transaction log is public! :P
1483 2011-01-07 21:57:07 <luke-jr> ThomasV: down with SI!
1484 2011-01-07 21:57:27 <wumpus> it would be impossible to enforce reporting of all dollar/btc trades though, someone could always start a dark pool
1485 2011-01-07 21:57:31 <ThomasV> sure, let's have miles and pounds
1486 2011-01-07 21:57:48 <wumpus> trading on irc is also a kind o fdark pool
1487 2011-01-07 21:57:56 <ThomasV> luke-jr: how about tonic miles ?
1488 2011-01-07 21:58:06 <luke-jr> ThomasV: what?
1489 2011-01-07 21:58:41 <luke-jr> ThomasV: the Tonal meter you mean? or perhaps sanmeter is closer
1490 2011-01-07 21:58:48 <kartofeln> SI is just this French metrical system even their own people refuse to adopt in their mercantile transactions.
1491 2011-01-07 21:58:49 <ArtForz> my fav FUU is the mil
1492 2011-01-07 21:59:01 <ThomasV> luke-jr: well, why don't you propose to replace traffic signs with log2 based distances ?
1493 2011-01-07 21:59:18 <kartofeln> at least that's what a weird book I just read was saying.
1494 2011-01-07 21:59:19 <luke-jr> ThomasV: because that's for anothre channel
1495 2011-01-07 21:59:36 <ArtForz> aka thou
1496 2011-01-07 22:00:24 <ThomasV> luke-jr: let me remind you that occasionaly :-)
1497 2011-01-07 22:01:13 <ArtForz> seriously, who the fuck thought a unit of 1/1000 inch made any sense?
1498 2011-01-07 22:01:59 * luke-jr is witness to SI failing for litres
1499 2011-01-07 22:02:07 <ArtForz> failing?
1500 2011-01-07 22:02:07 freetx has joined
1501 2011-01-07 22:02:11 <luke-jr> ArtForz: yes, failing
1502 2011-01-07 22:02:29 <wumpus> ThomasV: why represent numbers logaritmically?
1503 2011-01-07 22:02:33 <luke-jr> people have adopted (by force) litre, and millilitre, but centilitre and decilitre are ignored
1504 2011-01-07 22:02:41 <ArtForz> actually they aren't
1505 2011-01-07 22:02:46 <midnightmagic> no they aren't.
1506 2011-01-07 22:03:14 <ThomasV> wumpus: no idea...
1507 2011-01-07 22:03:31 <wumpus> representing numbers logaritmically reminds me of "sloppy floating point" discussion http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/fuzzy-logic-0103.html
1508 2011-01-07 22:04:32 <sipa> wumpus: because people's feel for many amounts in reality is exponential
1509 2011-01-07 22:05:06 <wumpus> yes and multiplication becomes really easy, addition on the other hand...
1510 2011-01-07 22:07:07 <ArtForz> hectolitres are also pretty common, havent seen anyone use decalitres yet
1511 2011-01-07 22:07:20 <midnightmagic> except in dune. :-)
1512 2011-01-07 22:07:27 <sipa> are, centiare, hectare are used here commonly
1513 2011-01-07 22:07:32 <ArtForz> yep
1514 2011-01-07 22:07:57 <sipa> athmospheric pressure is measured in hPa
1515 2011-01-07 22:08:06 <sipa> hP?
1516 2011-01-07 22:08:24 <ArtForz> nope, hPa
1517 2011-01-07 22:08:29 <ArtForz> hectoPascals
1518 2011-01-07 22:08:30 <sipa> Pa indeed
1519 2011-01-07 22:08:37 <midnightmagic> kPa
1520 2011-01-07 22:08:42 <ArtForz> though iirc thats not exactly SI
1521 2011-01-07 22:08:51 <sipa> 1013 hPa
1522 2011-01-07 22:09:36 <midnightmagic> 101.3 kPa
1523 2011-01-07 22:10:02 <sipa> 0.1013 MPa
1524 2011-01-07 22:10:16 <midnightmagic> haha =)
1525 2011-01-07 22:10:29 <sipa> same accuracy!
1526 2011-01-07 22:10:39 <ArtForz> ~ 0.1MPa, good enough for engineers ;)
1527 2011-01-07 22:10:46 <sipa> yeah
1528 2011-01-07 22:11:09 <EvanR-work> millibars
1529 2011-01-07 22:11:15 <EvanR-work> 1000 millibars!
1530 2011-01-07 22:11:21 <sipa> mmHg!
1531 2011-01-07 22:11:33 <EvanR-work> press measured in length X terminator2
1532 2011-01-07 22:11:36 <EvanR-work> pressure
1533 2011-01-07 22:11:51 <sipa> ?
1534 2011-01-07 22:11:58 <EvanR-work> millimeters of mercury
1535 2011-01-07 22:12:15 <ArtForz> bar isn't official si
1536 2011-01-07 22:12:33 <midnightmagic> 1 sig fig is all ya need anyway!! grarrgg!
1537 2011-01-07 22:12:47 <EvanR-work> ill sig *your* fig
1538 2011-01-07 22:12:51 <sipa> 101.325 ãª
1539 2011-01-07 22:12:58 <sipa> unicode has a character for it!
1540 2011-01-07 22:13:30 <midnightmagic> wow that's ugly in my font
1541 2011-01-07 22:13:36 <lfm> si would be kg/m^2
1542 2011-01-07 22:13:57 <midnightmagic> i dig your sigs
1543 2011-01-07 22:14:06 <sipa> so kPa = 1000 kg/m^2 = 1 Mg/m^2 ?
1544 2011-01-07 22:14:20 <sipa> Mg is so much nicer than tonne
1545 2011-01-07 22:15:34 <ArtForz> wouldnt that be areal density?
1546 2011-01-07 22:15:36 <midnightmagic> 1 pa = 1N/m^2, = 1kg/(ms^2)
1547 2011-01-07 22:16:09 <midnightmagic> 1 bar is 100,000 pascals.
1548 2011-01-07 22:16:39 <sipa> you're right
1549 2011-01-07 22:16:47 <ArtForz> yeah, dont mix up mass and force ;)
1550 2011-01-07 22:17:02 <midnightmagic> i won't take credit for remembering: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_(unit)
1551 2011-01-07 22:17:27 <luke-jr> the temperature outside here is 2 Tp âº
1552 2011-01-07 22:17:59 <sipa> Tp ?
1553 2011-01-07 22:18:02 <midnightmagic> i enjoy inventing new and exciting barriers to communication too..
1554 2011-01-07 22:18:04 <luke-jr> Tonal Temps
1555 2011-01-07 22:18:24 <luke-jr> if I'm more accurate, I'd say 27 Tpáµ âº
1556 2011-01-07 22:18:26 <EvanR-work> personally i use egyptian numbers of the form 1/n
1557 2011-01-07 22:18:36 <EvanR-work> </strawman>
1558 2011-01-07 22:19:36 <luke-jr> (and I don't trust my equipment's accuracy enough to speculate on Tpáµ outside)
1559 2011-01-07 22:19:56 <EvanR-work> midnightmagic: your sarcasm is misplaced, after all, you use bitcoins!
1560 2011-01-07 22:20:18 <midnightmagic> I don't mean it maliciously.
1561 2011-01-07 22:20:42 <ArtForz> I'd say the temperature outside here is fucking cold
1562 2011-01-07 22:20:57 <midnightmagic> Now there's a measurement I can get behind.
1563 2011-01-07 22:21:06 <midnightmagic> Here's it's closer to 0.3FC
1564 2011-01-07 22:21:19 <EvanR-work> ArtForz: increasing the efficiency of your heat engines i mean generators
1565 2011-01-07 22:21:20 <sipa> it's about -2 times the termperature here of a week ago (in degrees celsius)
1566 2011-01-07 22:21:48 <luke-jr> FC?
1567 2011-01-07 22:21:54 <sipa> fucking cold
1568 2011-01-07 22:21:55 <luke-jr> o
1569 2011-01-07 22:22:12 <luke-jr> so what is that in some real unit?
1570 2011-01-07 22:22:19 * luke-jr pulls out conversion chart
1571 2011-01-07 22:22:24 <ArtForz> ... about 260K
1572 2011-01-07 22:22:29 <luke-jr> â¦.
1573 2011-01-07 22:22:30 <midnightmagic> 1FC would be an inverse relationship to actual temperature.
1574 2011-01-07 22:22:41 <sipa> in K?
1575 2011-01-07 22:22:47 <EvanR-work> 3633.2 FC
1576 2011-01-07 22:22:50 <sipa> i'd add in some logarithm
1577 2011-01-07 22:22:51 <midnightmagic> because 2FC would be Really Fucking Cold, which means it's lower on the degC
1578 2011-01-07 22:22:53 <luke-jr> my chart doesn't have K â¹
1579 2011-01-07 22:23:27 <luke-jr> ArtForz: so it's about -4 Tp for you
1580 2011-01-07 22:23:42 <EvanR-work> its about 534.67 rankines here
1581 2011-01-07 22:23:50 <ArtForz> yeah, 0.3FC is less fucking cold than 1FC obviously
1582 2011-01-07 22:24:02 <sipa> luke-jr: what's a Tp exactly?
1583 2011-01-07 22:24:08 <midnightmagic> Here, it's not so Fucking Cold, maybe 1/3 of a Fucking Cold, which I would consider to be about -1 to -5C 1FC would be closer to -15C or so.
1584 2011-01-07 22:24:14 <luke-jr> sipa: 0 Tp is water freezing
1585 2011-01-07 22:24:19 <ArtForz> btw, how many C in a FC ?
1586 2011-01-07 22:24:25 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: at what pressure?
1587 2011-01-07 22:24:26 <luke-jr> sipa: 10 Tp (16 decimal) is water boiling
1588 2011-01-07 22:24:27 <ArtForz> (= plain colds)
1589 2011-01-07 22:24:39 <midnightmagic> I would say -20C, personally, but then it changes based on humidity.
1590 2011-01-07 22:24:39 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: the same way Celcius defines it -.-
1591 2011-01-07 22:24:45 <luke-jr> 0 Tp = 0 C
1592 2011-01-07 22:24:49 <EvanR-work> so 0 is the triple point
1593 2011-01-07 22:24:50 <luke-jr> 10 Tp (16 decimal) = 100 C
1594 2011-01-07 22:25:11 <sipa> and 20 Tp (32 decimal) = 200 C ?
1595 2011-01-07 22:25:14 <midnightmagic> like in Victoria, Canada, 1FC is definitely -20C. But in Yukon, where it's dry, I would say 1FC is more like -30C.
1596 2011-01-07 22:25:28 <luke-jr> sipa: right
1597 2011-01-07 22:25:34 <luke-jr> sipa: and 8 Tp = 50 C
1598 2011-01-07 22:25:35 * sipa prefers logarithmic units
1599 2011-01-07 22:25:54 <midnightmagic> what is plain cold. Probably three of them in a FC.
1600 2011-01-07 22:26:06 <ArtForz> makes sense
1601 2011-01-07 22:26:07 <midnightmagic> so I guess 1/3FC = 1C
1602 2011-01-07 22:26:08 <sipa> a few years ago with some friends we used the "puut" (+1 puut = *2 seconds)
1603 2011-01-07 22:26:19 <sipa> and 0 puut = 1 second
1604 2011-01-07 22:26:45 <luke-jr> 1 timmill = ~1.3184 seconds
1605 2011-01-07 22:27:08 <sipa> what's a timmill?
1606 2011-01-07 22:27:20 <AAA_awright> About 1.3184 seconds, I would think
1607 2011-01-07 22:27:23 <luke-jr> 1/1000 (1/65536 decimal) of a Tim
1608 2011-01-07 22:27:35 <luke-jr> 10 Tim (16 decimal) make up 1 day
1609 2011-01-07 22:27:50 <sipa> what day? :)
1610 2011-01-07 22:28:01 <AAA_awright> No, again, 16 Tim make a day
1611 2011-01-07 22:28:03 <EvanR-work> SI day = 86400 seconds
1612 2011-01-07 22:28:15 <EvanR-work> earth day = messed up
1613 2011-01-07 22:28:16 <sipa> earth days are currently approximately 86400.002s now :)
1614 2011-01-07 22:28:22 <sipa> on average
1615 2011-01-07 22:28:42 <sipa> ok, SI day
1616 2011-01-07 22:28:45 <AAA_awright> sipa: a little longer than that, leap seconds are fairly often now
1617 2011-01-07 22:29:27 <luke-jr> sipa: Earth day :P
1618 2011-01-07 22:29:42 <midnightmagic> friggin leap seconds. i'll never get that time back..
1619 2011-01-07 22:29:54 <EvanR-work> Earth day would be stupid since you cant go back and measure it
1620 2011-01-07 22:30:19 <sipa> Because of the way the second is defined, the mean length of a day is now about 86,400.002 seconds, and is increasing by about 1.7 milliseconds per century (an average over the last 2,700 years).
1621 2011-01-07 22:30:24 <sipa> -- wikipedia
1622 2011-01-07 22:31:57 * luke-jr picks up his hard copy of the Tonal book to check
1623 2011-01-07 22:32:09 <EvanR-work> theres an entire book?
1624 2011-01-07 22:32:17 <EvanR-work> figured it was a pamphlet
1625 2011-01-07 22:32:18 <sipa> AAA_awright: leap seconds are *not* used to correct for the astronomical day compared to the SI day, but to keep calendar years multiples of the average astronomical day
1626 2011-01-07 22:32:43 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: yes, see the link on the wiki? :P
1627 2011-01-07 22:33:01 <AAA_awright> Uh, SI day?
1628 2011-01-07 22:33:04 Slix` has joined
1629 2011-01-07 22:33:05 <luke-jr> I guess a timmill is defined by the pendulum of length î§.î§î§î§ Tonal meters
1630 2011-01-07 22:33:14 <sipa> AAA_awright: SI day = 86400 seconds
1631 2011-01-07 22:33:34 <EvanR-work> at what height on what planet
1632 2011-01-07 22:33:37 <AAA_awright> What did I say?
1633 2011-01-07 22:33:49 <luke-jr> (67.975 inches)
1634 2011-01-07 22:34:05 <sipa> AAA_awright: you said that leap seconds occur quite often so the average astronomical day must be more than 86400.002s
1635 2011-01-07 22:34:12 <sipa> they are unrelated
1636 2011-01-07 22:34:40 <AAA_awright> No, you just gave the correct definition
1637 2011-01-07 22:34:43 <EvanR-work> years are not multiples of a day
1638 2011-01-07 22:34:55 <sipa> calendar years are multiples of days
1639 2011-01-07 22:34:58 <AAA_awright> I never said anything about years
1640 2011-01-07 22:35:04 <AAA_awright> Or days for that matter
1641 2011-01-07 22:35:06 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: actually, I think the length of a Tonal meter varies by height
1642 2011-01-07 22:35:18 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: well thats interesting, so tonal doesnt work in space?
1643 2011-01-07 22:35:31 <sipa> AAA_awright: so, what do you mean precisely?
1644 2011-01-07 22:35:46 <EvanR-work> the hell is a calendar year
1645 2011-01-07 22:35:49 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: sure it does.
1646 2011-01-07 22:35:53 <EvanR-work> if not 365 days
1647 2011-01-07 22:36:15 <EvanR-work> the proper length of a meter stick is always a meter
1648 2011-01-07 22:36:16 <AAA_awright> sipa: We've added 24 leap seconds in the century
1649 2011-01-07 22:36:37 <sipa> AAA_awright: i was wrong, sorry
1650 2011-01-07 22:36:54 <EvanR-work> yeah, leap seconds are to keep UTC in check with the earth
1651 2011-01-07 22:37:07 <EvanR-work> midnight
1652 2011-01-07 22:37:22 <ArtForz> really?
1653 2011-01-07 22:37:28 <ArtForz> I thought noon...
1654 2011-01-07 22:37:38 <sipa> but leap seconds are not introduced regularly, they are based on measurements and there are variations
1655 2011-01-07 22:37:42 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: since the Earth is the center of the universe from our perspective, every point in space has a height âº
1656 2011-01-07 22:37:54 <EvanR-work> luke-jr now youre just trolling
1657 2011-01-07 22:38:20 <AAA_awright> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leapsecond.ut1-utc.svg
1658 2011-01-07 22:38:26 <luke-jr> but yes, the length of the tonal meter is defined by the circumference of the Earth, which is of course dependent on height
1659 2011-01-07 22:38:41 <EvanR-work> uhm no
1660 2011-01-07 22:38:56 <luke-jr> â¦
1661 2011-01-07 22:38:57 <EvanR-work> also the earth isnt flat
1662 2011-01-07 22:40:02 <luke-jr> guess we'll just have to stick to the defined equivalents
1663 2011-01-07 22:42:14 <UukGoblin> hmm so I've determined that one 5970 takes about the same amount of power as 2 5770s
1664 2011-01-07 22:42:44 <ArtForz> that sounds a bit low
1665 2011-01-07 22:43:08 <UukGoblin> one 5970 takes about 0.7A (@240V), one 5770 about 0.31A
1666 2011-01-07 22:44:02 <ArtForz> yeah, I got about 2.5 5770s per 5970
1667 2011-01-07 22:44:12 Cusipzzz has joined
1668 2011-01-07 22:44:57 <UukGoblin> my measurements are roughly correct then :-)
1669 2011-01-07 22:45:59 <ArtForz> looks like it
1670 2011-01-07 22:46:00 <sipa> 1 5970 uses 0.7A @ 240V? that's 168W only?
1671 2011-01-07 22:46:22 <UukGoblin> sipa, yup
1672 2011-01-07 22:46:29 <ArtForz> errr... yeah, thats... weird
1673 2011-01-07 22:46:35 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1674 2011-01-07 22:46:36 <EvanR-work> AC Watts? what?
1675 2011-01-07 22:46:45 <UukGoblin> measurements with a clamp ammeter might be a bit off though, if I understand correctly
1676 2011-01-07 22:46:46 <EvanR-work> average power
1677 2011-01-07 22:46:46 <Cusipzzz> JC Watts imo
1678 2011-01-07 22:47:00 <sipa> oh right
1679 2011-01-07 22:47:19 <UukGoblin> oh
1680 2011-01-07 22:47:20 <UukGoblin> hang on
1681 2011-01-07 22:47:26 <UukGoblin> that's actually just a delta
1682 2011-01-07 22:47:31 <UukGoblin> I'm not sure how much it uses when idle
1683 2011-01-07 22:47:41 <ArtForz> still soudns WAY too low
1684 2011-01-07 22:48:04 <UukGoblin> whole computer takes 0.8A when idle and 2.25A when 2x 5970 are mining
1685 2011-01-07 22:48:24 <ArtForz> only 540W? wow
1686 2011-01-07 22:49:00 <UukGoblin> ... or the ammeter sucks.
1687 2011-01-07 22:49:05 <sipa> is that a maximal current, average current, root of average square current?
1688 2011-01-07 22:49:24 <ArtForz> root mean squirrel
1689 2011-01-07 22:49:24 <sipa> i assume the last
1690 2011-01-07 22:50:17 <UukGoblin> sipa, current as output by http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46384
1691 2011-01-07 22:50:21 <UukGoblin> when on the live wire
1692 2011-01-07 22:50:31 xelister has joined
1693 2011-01-07 22:50:47 <UukGoblin> (between PSU and mains)
1694 2011-01-07 22:51:39 <EvanR-work> sipa: wikipedia calls it apparent power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power
1695 2011-01-07 22:52:21 <EvanR-work> units usually spelled out as VA rather than watts
1696 2011-01-07 22:52:44 <ArtForz> yeah
1697 2011-01-07 22:52:56 <ArtForz> and always > W
1698 2011-01-07 22:53:16 <luke-jr> btw, painless bitcoind building using qmake: lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-qmake
1699 2011-01-07 22:53:20 <EvanR-work> wouldnt a nicer measurement occur on the DC side
1700 2011-01-07 22:53:38 <UukGoblin> I don't think I could use a clamp ammeter on DC current
1701 2011-01-07 22:53:39 <sipa> luke-jr: nice
1702 2011-01-07 22:53:47 <UukGoblin> at least not this cheap one
1703 2011-01-07 22:53:55 <ArtForz> there are DC clamp ammeters, not really cheap though
1704 2011-01-07 22:54:01 <luke-jr> also have lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-qt which uses QCA for hashes, but it doesn't seem to work :x
1705 2011-01-07 22:54:20 <slush> ;;any m0mchil
1706 2011-01-07 22:54:21 <gribble> m0mchil was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 6 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: *** m0mchil <m0mchil!4f7c3e52@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.124.62.82> has parted #bitcoin-dev
1707 2011-01-07 22:57:32 <EvanR-work> UukGoblin: use a compass xD
1708 2011-01-07 22:58:07 larsivi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1709 2011-01-07 23:02:12 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1710 2011-01-07 23:03:06 <UukGoblin> EvanR-work, LOL
1711 2011-01-07 23:04:26 <EvanR-work> i now have more than .5BTC on the pool!
1712 2011-01-07 23:08:29 <UukGoblin> I really think we need greater divisibility in stock client
1713 2011-01-07 23:10:09 <slush> UukGoblin: You really need to transfer less than $0.003 ?
1714 2011-01-07 23:10:41 <Cusipzzz> when it get to 1BTC =100USD, we'll talk then
1715 2011-01-07 23:10:51 <UukGoblin> slush, is current set at 0.003? I thought it was 0.01
1716 2011-01-07 23:10:57 <slush> $
1717 2011-01-07 23:11:21 larsivi has joined
1718 2011-01-07 23:11:51 <UukGoblin> oh $
1719 2011-01-07 23:12:03 <UukGoblin> yeah 1 BTC is about 1 PLN
1720 2011-01-07 23:12:17 <lfm> pln?
1721 2011-01-07 23:12:22 <UukGoblin> polish zlotys
1722 2011-01-07 23:12:33 <Cusipzzz> PLZ was taken ?
1723 2011-01-07 23:12:42 <Cusipzzz> Palestinian Zinar ?
1724 2011-01-07 23:12:47 <ThomasV> "please"
1725 2011-01-07 23:13:01 <UukGoblin> used to be pzl
1726 2011-01-07 23:13:07 <UukGoblin> they denominated 4 zeroes
1727 2011-01-07 23:13:12 <slush> Btw I found that sometimes one share in pool is for 0.00000110 BTC. Quite hard to get 1BTC with slow miner :)
1728 2011-01-07 23:13:19 <Cusipzzz> ah, they did a currency reverse split =)
1729 2011-01-07 23:13:45 <Cusipzzz> same with Turkey ..new Turkish Lira TRL
1730 2011-01-07 23:13:48 <lfm> how often do you get a share?
1731 2011-01-07 23:15:02 <sipa> slush's pool has 10-12% of the total network
1732 2011-01-07 23:15:06 <EvanR-work> slush: we need the next stage after the mining pool, to speed up slower miners
1733 2011-01-07 23:15:22 <EvanR-work> whole network -> mining pool -> ???
1734 2011-01-07 23:15:24 <slush> lfm: one share is equal to block with diff 1
1735 2011-01-07 23:15:26 <EvanR-work> -> profit
1736 2011-01-07 23:15:55 <EvanR-work> -> tor node which taxes wallets going through it ->
1737 2011-01-07 23:15:56 <sipa> so unless people are vandalizing, it should get some 15 shares a day :S
1738 2011-01-07 23:16:01 <slush> EvanR-work: what do you mean by 'next stage'?
1739 2011-01-07 23:16:08 <sipa> EvanR-work: there's no need
1740 2011-01-07 23:16:18 <sipa> slush doesn't scale difficulty
1741 2011-01-07 23:16:46 <EvanR-work> yeah but if you have a crap cpu, you cant get some
1742 2011-01-07 23:16:56 <EvanR-work> lets accelerate it again, use brainpower
1743 2011-01-07 23:16:58 <sipa> you won't ever get some
1744 2011-01-07 23:17:04 <sipa> haha
1745 2011-01-07 23:17:14 <EvanR-work> thats what they said about speed of sound (tm)
1746 2011-01-07 23:17:16 <kiba> you'll get some, but it will be ubersmall
1747 2011-01-07 23:17:17 * sipa does about 3.7nH/s with his brains
1748 2011-01-07 23:17:27 <lfm> slow cpu == loser with a big L
1749 2011-01-07 23:17:29 <tcatm> EvanR-work: Increase price of bitcoins so those 0.00001 BTC are actually worth something and we add more decimals
1750 2011-01-07 23:17:57 <kiba> assuming we succeed
1751 2011-01-07 23:18:13 * EvanR-work calls CNN about bitcoin
1752 2011-01-07 23:18:51 <lfm> call fox news, get them to denounce bitcoin
1753 2011-01-07 23:19:01 <slush> today pool found 18 blocks. crazy.
1754 2011-01-07 23:19:09 <lfm> wtg
1755 2011-01-07 23:19:38 <Cusipzzz> hax! =)
1756 2011-01-07 23:20:05 * EvanR-work trying to figure out why foxnews would denounce bitcoin, im sure they would, i just cant come up with a political theory to explain it
1757 2011-01-07 23:20:25 <EvanR-work> i just figure they say everything wrong to get ratings
1758 2011-01-07 23:20:31 <lfm> terrorist are useing btc to fund terror
1759 2011-01-07 23:21:30 <EvanR-work> federal agents today discovered an underground terrorist hacker ponzi phishing scheme known as bitcoin.
1760 2011-01-07 23:21:39 <lfm> doesnt matter if its true, fox wont care
1761 2011-01-07 23:21:41 <ThomasV> EvanR-work: because bitcoin is communist
1762 2011-01-07 23:21:58 <EvanR-work> it is expected to be found unconstitutional
1763 2011-01-07 23:22:04 <ThomasV> it's peer to peer, therefore it's communist
1764 2011-01-07 23:22:42 <EvanR-work> uhm isnt bitcoin more capitalist
1765 2011-01-07 23:22:45 <lfm> then call another station and get them to say its gread cuz it will undermine the fed
1766 2011-01-07 23:22:48 <EvanR-work> deregulated?
1767 2011-01-07 23:23:09 <lfm> gread -> great
1768 2011-01-07 23:23:26 <freetx> No, because it doesn't appear in the 10 planks of communism (like central banking) means its commie.....I think
1769 2011-01-07 23:23:31 <Cusipzzz> Fed gonna start mining coins imo
1770 2011-01-07 23:23:45 <ThomasV> http://www.freetechnologytips.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/communism.jpg
1771 2011-01-07 23:23:49 <Cusipzzz> trade coins for USD, retire MAiden Lane II w/profits
1772 2011-01-07 23:24:03 <kiba> EvanR-work: you need to stop thinking Fox News and people with a political idealogy are consistent
1773 2011-01-07 23:24:16 <EvanR-work> kiba: i dont, see above
1774 2011-01-07 23:24:26 <EvanR-work> thats why im confused
1775 2011-01-07 23:24:45 <kiba> if people are consistent, their motiviations would be really transparent
1776 2011-01-07 23:25:00 <EvanR-work> so its like an illuminati conspiracy
1777 2011-01-07 23:25:10 <EvanR-work> say everything wrong to confuse people
1778 2011-01-07 23:25:25 <kiba> naw, they're confused themselves
1779 2011-01-07 23:25:37 <EvanR-work> maybe thats the source of their fairness and balance
1780 2011-01-07 23:26:09 <lfm> evanr-work I think if we just try to explain bitcoin properly, most people will be confused
1781 2011-01-07 23:26:26 <kiba> bitcoin is money. That all people needs to know
1782 2011-01-07 23:26:37 <EvanR-work> we should start a cable news network, everyone political in here can be the analysts, the sane people can be the hosts
1783 2011-01-07 23:26:44 <EvanR-work> or news achors
1784 2011-01-07 23:27:10 <EvanR-work> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elevator_speech
1785 2011-01-07 23:27:28 <lfm> what about the crazy non-political peole?
1786 2011-01-07 23:27:41 <EvanR-work> put them on the business show
1787 2011-01-07 23:28:10 <lfm> ya, don't buy stocks and bonds BUY BITCOIN
1788 2011-01-07 23:28:30 <EvanR-work> report on USD as if it were the foreign currency segment
1789 2011-01-07 23:29:12 xelister has joined
1790 2011-01-07 23:29:25 <xelister> I left probably with ping timeout, right? or perhaps Quit
1791 2011-01-07 23:29:35 <xelister> that was incorrect part reason.
1792 2011-01-07 23:30:06 <lfm> xelister it scrolled off
1793 2011-01-07 23:30:13 <kiba> lfm: THEN buy stocks and bonds denominated in bitcoin!
1794 2011-01-07 23:30:49 <EvanR-work> 'redeemable at any time for bitcoins'
1795 2011-01-07 23:30:52 <EvanR-work> 'backed by...'
1796 2011-01-07 23:31:21 <lfm> brot to you by mtgox.com
1797 2011-01-07 23:31:30 <EvanR-work> lol
1798 2011-01-07 23:31:38 <EvanR-work> mtgox commercials
1799 2011-01-07 23:31:39 <kiba> an advertising market in bitcoin is going to open up real soon
1800 2011-01-07 23:31:42 <xelister> Guess (literally) what the true quit reason should be and win 5 BTC (for the 3 word reason, easy, 04d144fc) or 20 BTC (6 words, hard, c3fea309). Watch out for Upper case and "." at end, all is in form like "Foo bar." im not sure how to capitalize certain company name.
1801 2011-01-07 23:31:47 <kiba> now any content producers can make money
1802 2011-01-07 23:31:55 <xelister> write in chan, I check back brb 20 min (1 price for first person)
1803 2011-01-07 23:32:14 <lfm> xelister you gpu overheated and started your house on fire
1804 2011-01-07 23:32:44 <ThomasV> kiba: what do you mean ?
1805 2011-01-07 23:33:02 <xelister> echo -n "GPU caused fire." | sha256sum | head -c 8 ---> d0738eda. no.
1806 2011-01-07 23:33:23 <kiba> ThomasV: any traffic bearing site will now be able to earn bitcoin
1807 2011-01-07 23:33:35 <ThomasV> how ?
1808 2011-01-07 23:33:45 <kiba> via an ads network
1809 2011-01-07 23:33:59 <ThomasV> is this really being setup ?
1810 2011-01-07 23:34:00 <kiba> find and match advertising buyers with publishers
1811 2011-01-07 23:34:05 <Cusipzzz> ?
1812 2011-01-07 23:34:05 <kiba> ThomasV: yes
1813 2011-01-07 23:34:23 <ThomasV> who's doing it ?
1814 2011-01-07 23:34:23 <kiba> currently, the operator is buying lot of bitcoin so he will be able to pay a bitcoin hosting provider
1815 2011-01-07 23:34:25 <Cusipzzz> pay better than adsense?
1816 2011-01-07 23:34:27 <kiba> BioMike
1817 2011-01-07 23:34:37 <kiba> Cusipzzz: probably not, but it's probably better than adsense shutdown
1818 2011-01-07 23:34:38 <EvanR-work> the coin part of bitcoin was genius, when advertising starts up, thats going to be so good ;)
1819 2011-01-07 23:34:49 <kiba> you can have instant payout!
1820 2011-01-07 23:34:51 <Cusipzzz> adsense shutdown ??
1821 2011-01-07 23:34:55 <lfm> lets see, ill buy ads with bitcoin to drive traffic to my site so I can earn more btc with ads
1822 2011-01-07 23:34:58 <kiba> Cusipzzz: adsense horror story
1823 2011-01-07 23:35:01 <Cusipzzz> i've used adsense for years
1824 2011-01-07 23:35:39 <kiba> adsense is the paypal of the advertising world
1825 2011-01-07 23:35:51 <kiba> (I used paypal for years too!)
1826 2011-01-07 23:36:03 <Cusipzzz> maybe, but unlike paypal, adsense has been no prob to me
1827 2011-01-07 23:36:25 * kiba used adsense briefly but he make far more money with other ads provider
1828 2011-01-07 23:36:50 <Cusipzzz> which ?
1829 2011-01-07 23:37:44 <ThomasV> kiba: who is BioMike ?
1830 2011-01-07 23:38:33 <kiba> ThomasV: do you ever visit the forum?
1831 2011-01-07 23:38:41 <ThomasV> not really ...
1832 2011-01-07 23:38:52 <kiba> of course, you're not going to buy
1833 2011-01-07 23:38:55 <kiba> Cusipzzz: projectwonderful
1834 2011-01-07 23:39:43 <EvanR-work> ThomasV: youre not going to buy?
1835 2011-01-07 23:39:46 <ThomasV> kiba: but I do visit the IRC ! and the internets !
1836 2011-01-07 23:39:54 <ThomasV> to buy what ?
1837 2011-01-07 23:42:00 <Cusipzzz> kiba: thx, will take a look
1838 2011-01-07 23:43:53 <kiba> Cusipzzz: probably won't make you much money
1839 2011-01-07 23:44:01 <kiba> or more money than adsense
1840 2011-01-07 23:44:22 <Cusipzzz> ya, seems like a niche model..but interesting.
1841 2011-01-07 23:44:43 <Cusipzzz> i get ~200/mo adsense, never a problem
1842 2011-01-07 23:45:20 <Cusipzzz> but if there was a btc equivalent, that pays roughly the same, i'd be interested
1843 2011-01-07 23:46:19 noagendamarket has joined
1844 2011-01-07 23:46:20 tg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1845 2011-01-07 23:46:43 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
1846 2011-01-07 23:46:43 noagendamarket has joined
1847 2011-01-07 23:47:11 tg has joined
1848 2011-01-07 23:57:45 <xelister> anyway
1849 2011-01-07 23:57:50 <xelister> my quit reason previously should had been
1850 2011-01-07 23:57:54 <xelister> Blaaargh Blaaargh ATI crashed X again. ATI software sucks cocks in hell.
1851 2011-01-07 23:58:29 <sipa> what is the syntax for gettransaction?
1852 2011-01-07 23:58:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1853 2011-01-07 23:58:49 <sipa> using a transaction id from the ouput of getblock doesn't seem to work
1854 2011-01-07 23:59:07 <sipa> "invalid transaction id"
1855 2011-01-07 23:59:18 <Cusipzzz> <tx id> ?
1856 2011-01-07 23:59:47 <sipa> yes, but just using the hexadecimal form doesn't seem te work