1 2011-01-26 00:03:12 <sipa> interesting to see: http://vps.sipa.be/growth.png
   2 2011-01-26 00:05:47 <sipa> so the growth rate hasn't been as low as now since bitcoin made slashdot
   3 2011-01-26 00:06:59 <molecular> ArtForz: int the adl sdk html documentation "...adl_sdk/Public-Documents/html/Sample_2main_8c-example.html" there is some weird stuff (for me) being done with function pointers and loading symbols explicitly from libatiadlxx.so. wtf?
   4 2011-01-26 00:07:34 andrew12^mac has joined
   5 2011-01-26 00:07:53 <Diablo-D3> molecular: thats normal actually
   6 2011-01-26 00:08:06 <Diablo-D3> if its the code Im thinking of, its just runtime loading of C symbols from a lib
   7 2011-01-26 00:08:08 <fabianhjr> sipa: I think it is not small at all. 2% daily is about 0.02**365 annually or 137740%.
   8 2011-01-26 00:08:09 <Diablo-D3> aka dynamic loading
   9 2011-01-26 00:08:19 <Diablo-D3> this is frequently used in things like libgl
  10 2011-01-26 00:08:25 <Diablo-D3> when you dont want to link to the lib but still use it
  11 2011-01-26 00:08:34 <Diablo-D3> plugins in C apps often use this trick too
  12 2011-01-26 00:09:06 <sipa> fabianhjr: agree, it's not small by any standard - but it's still the lowest (except for very short periods of time) since /.
  13 2011-01-26 00:09:52 <lfm> you mean 1.02 ** 365
  14 2011-01-26 00:10:10 <sipa> i think he does, since his result is correct
  15 2011-01-26 00:10:23 <fabianhjr> If we could suppose that the network hashrate is correlated with the number of users then if we currently have 100 active users we would be 137K by the end of this year and 2 Million by the end of next.
  16 2011-01-26 00:10:31 <fabianhjr> lfm: yeah, sorry. xD
  17 2011-01-26 00:11:04 <sipa> fabianhjr: the graph also shows that it's quite pointless to make guesses about any period of time longer than a few weeks :)
  18 2011-01-26 00:11:05 <molecular> Diablo-D3, artforz sent me some fan_control.c code earlier. It doesn't link here to libatiadlxx.so complaining about undefined references. I check, the symbols are in my libatiadlxx.so.
  19 2011-01-26 00:11:24 <Diablo-D3> molecular: it doesnt link to ANYTHING if you dont link it to it
  20 2011-01-26 00:11:27 <luke-jr> holy crap
  21 2011-01-26 00:11:29 <Diablo-D3> the c file doesnt link to things
  22 2011-01-26 00:11:34 <luke-jr> I just found a basic summary of Bitcoin from 2006
  23 2011-01-26 00:11:39 <Diablo-D3> you have to do that yourself with the linker command
  24 2011-01-26 00:11:47 <sipa> luke-jr: ... what?
  25 2011-01-26 00:12:02 <Diablo-D3> such as gcc -o fan_control fancontrol.o -latiadlxx or whatever
  26 2011-01-26 00:12:03 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm moving my data around and stumbled across it
  27 2011-01-26 00:12:09 <molecular> Diablo-D3, yeah, I am. it's a linker error.
  28 2011-01-26 00:12:14 <fabianhjr> luke-jr: any author on it?
  29 2011-01-26 00:12:18 <luke-jr> me
  30 2011-01-26 00:12:27 <luke-jr> was just some ideas I scribbled down basically
  31 2011-01-26 00:12:48 <fabianhjr> xD Well, Satoshi beat you to implement it first.
  32 2011-01-26 00:12:49 <luke-jr> but more or less the idea behind bitcoin
  33 2011-01-26 00:12:53 <luke-jr> yeah
  34 2011-01-26 00:12:59 <luke-jr> I totally forgot about it XD
  35 2011-01-26 00:13:23 <luke-jr> if only I knew it could be so popular :p
  36 2011-01-26 00:13:28 <devon_hillard> I learned a new acronym today: G-GPGPU - Graphics GPGPU, or using GPGPU features to do offline graphics processing loads like raytracing
  37 2011-01-26 00:14:08 <CIA-98> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rbeeb723 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java :
  38 2011-01-26 00:14:08 <CIA-98> DiabloMiner: Change long period hashmeter to enable on -f below 5, fixed smoothness
  39 2011-01-26 00:14:08 <CIA-98> DiabloMiner: of work size changes, can go much lower with change - http://bit.ly/gwGmsp
  40 2011-01-26 00:14:28 <lfm> devon_hillard: that's silly
  41 2011-01-26 00:14:52 <andrew12^mac> yay
  42 2011-01-26 00:14:53 <molecular> Diablo-D3, "gcc -g -O2   -Wall    ./ati_fan_control.o -lGL -latiadlxx -o ati_fan_control" -> "undefined reference to `ADL_Main_Control_Create(void* (*)(int), int)'"
  43 2011-01-26 00:14:57 <andrew12^mac> i got a vps to run my stuff on
  44 2011-01-26 00:15:11 <molecular> Diablo-D3, which is defined "extern" in the code
  45 2011-01-26 00:15:20 <Diablo-D3> molecular: maybe function signature changed
  46 2011-01-26 00:15:33 <andrew12^mac> now's the long part where i upload a year of logs
  47 2011-01-26 00:15:43 <molecular> I managed to look at the symbols using mn, objdump... how can I see the signatures?
  48 2011-01-26 00:16:01 <sipa> objdump -C
  49 2011-01-26 00:16:30 <molecular> "0001d200 g    DF .text  0000003f  Base        ADL_Main_Control_Create"
  50 2011-01-26 00:17:02 <lfm> you got some arg the wrong type or number
  51 2011-01-26 00:20:27 <sipa> approximate dates of passing certain calculation speeds: 100MH/s: may 20 2010, 1GH/s: july 15 2010, 10GH/s: sept 15 2010, dec 10 2010
  52 2011-01-26 00:20:46 <molecular> lfm: yeah, which one?
  53 2011-01-26 00:20:50 <sipa> * 100GH/s: dec 10 2010
  54 2011-01-26 00:21:15 <lfm> prolly the function arg
  55 2011-01-26 00:21:37 <molecular> My header (from adl sdk 3.0) doesn't match the lib from ati-drivers 10.11
  56 2011-01-26 00:21:48 <molecular> no not true
  57 2011-01-26 00:22:14 <molecular> Diablo-D3, -C didn't tell me the function signature, did it?
  58 2011-01-26 00:22:32 <lfm> molecular maybe it changed between yours and Art's
  59 2011-01-26 00:22:39 <molecular> most likely
  60 2011-01-26 00:22:51 <molecular> I just cant find documentation as to what is correct on my system
  61 2011-01-26 00:22:59 <molecular> then I could simply change it
  62 2011-01-26 00:23:33 <molecular> or lookup the function symbols signature directly from the lib I have
  63 2011-01-26 00:23:39 <lfm> where is code, may I try it?
  64 2011-01-26 00:24:34 <molecular> <ArtForz> http://pastebin.com/STAF2VZ7
  65 2011-01-26 00:24:50 <molecular> that's the code
  66 2011-01-26 00:26:13 * Kiba` is getting tired of his art project
  67 2011-01-26 00:26:44 <prax> is there any sort of thing for semi-automated e-commerce yet?
  68 2011-01-26 00:26:55 <molecular> damn, my libatiadlxx.so comes from "ati-driver-installer-10-11-x86.x86_64.run". so it's 64 bit???
  69 2011-01-26 00:29:26 <dirtyfilthy> prax: mybitcoin.com has a tool
  70 2011-01-26 00:29:37 <prax> k will check it out ty
  71 2011-01-26 00:29:52 <prax> working on an electronic cigarette site
  72 2011-01-26 00:30:04 <prax> would like to use bitcoin, try to get some adoption
  73 2011-01-26 00:30:41 <luke-jr> prax: don't forget to support Tonal as well as Decimal :P
  74 2011-01-26 00:31:07 <prax> idk what ur talkin bout
  75 2011-01-26 00:32:10 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
  76 2011-01-26 00:32:54 <AAA_awright> Don't forget to support octal while you're at it
  77 2011-01-26 00:32:57 <AAA_awright> And Hexadecimal
  78 2011-01-26 00:33:21 <luke-jr> there is no octal bitcoin standard :P
  79 2011-01-26 00:33:26 <AAA_awright> Yes
  80 2011-01-26 00:33:29 <luke-jr> hexadecimal would just be tonal written in hexadecimal
  81 2011-01-26 00:33:33 <luke-jr> there is?
  82 2011-01-26 00:33:36 <AAA_awright> o7777 BTC
  83 2011-01-26 00:33:42 <luke-jr> …
  84 2011-01-26 00:33:50 <AAA_awright> = 4095 BTC
  85 2011-01-26 00:33:57 <luke-jr> Octal Bitcoin is just decimal converted to octal?
  86 2011-01-26 00:34:04 <AAA_awright> = xFFF BTC
  87 2011-01-26 00:34:10 <luke-jr> no
  88 2011-01-26 00:34:19 <AAA_awright> That's how numeric bases work, luke-jr
  89 2011-01-26 00:34:40 <AAA_awright> You don't change the unit if the number representation changes, the unit is still the same after all
  90 2011-01-26 00:34:45 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: BTC is defined as *decimal* BitCoin
  91 2011-01-26 00:35:00 <AAA_awright> No, the digits 0-9 are defined as decimal
  92 2011-01-26 00:35:05 <AAA_awright> Not the BTC at the end
  93 2011-01-26 00:35:12 <AAA_awright> I could do it BTC * 999
  94 2011-01-26 00:35:15 <luke-jr> "BTC" is decimal units
  95 2011-01-26 00:35:31 <AAA_awright> Which is the same as 999 BTC, same as b1111100111 BTC
  96 2011-01-26 00:36:09 <luke-jr> and the same as 17,4281.07 TBC
  97 2011-01-26 00:36:14 <AAA_awright> I could say BTC*(1+1+1+1+b10), same as 6 BTC
  98 2011-01-26 00:36:29 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: How many TBC in BTC?
  99 2011-01-26 00:36:56 <luke-jr> 55.1 TBC = 1 BTC
 100 2011-01-26 00:36:57 <AAA_awright> There's exactly 1 TBC in BTC
 101 2011-01-26 00:37:01 <luke-jr> no
 102 2011-01-26 00:37:29 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units
 103 2011-01-26 00:37:29 <AAA_awright> What's the link say
 104 2011-01-26 00:37:45 <AAA_awright> 1 TBC = 0.00065536 BTC
 105 2011-01-26 00:38:58 CyanDynamo has joined
 106 2011-01-26 00:39:04 davout has quit (Quit: i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net))
 107 2011-01-26 00:39:08 <AAA_awright> 1525.87890625 TBC = 1 BTC, so it's probably not a good unit for day to day payments
 108 2011-01-26 00:39:11 Cusipzzz has joined
 109 2011-01-26 00:39:18 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: 55.1 tonal * 0.00065536 decimal = 1
 110 2011-01-26 00:39:36 Cusipzzz has quit (Changing host)
 111 2011-01-26 00:39:36 Cusipzzz has joined
 112 2011-01-26 00:39:36 <AAA_awright> I don't think my unicode goes that far up
 113 2011-01-26 00:39:41 <luke-jr> TBC is a good unit for day to day payments, in a world that has adopted bitcoin
 114 2011-01-26 00:39:53 <slush> ;bc,stats
 115 2011-01-26 00:40:02 <AAA_awright> How much is a BitCoin going for?
 116 2011-01-26 00:40:03 <slush> ;;bc,stats
 117 2011-01-26 00:40:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 104591 | Current Difficulty: 18437.64439217 | Next Difficulty At Block: 104831 | Next Difficulty In: 240 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 9 hours, 8 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 21836.00384363
 118 2011-01-26 00:40:14 <luke-jr> 5f5.e1 tonal-in-hexadecimal * 0.00065536 decimal = 1 :p
 119 2011-01-26 00:40:42 <AAA_awright> $0.41 yikes
 120 2011-01-26 00:40:53 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: today.
 121 2011-01-26 00:40:59 <luke-jr> a year ago, it was what? $0.04?
 122 2011-01-26 00:41:02 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
 123 2011-01-26 00:41:10 <AAA_awright> 5 months ago
 124 2011-01-26 00:41:26 <luke-jr> there will never be more than 21 million BTC. Far too few for worldwide adoption without each BTC being HUGE
 125 2011-01-26 00:41:34 <AAA_awright> That's not to say you could have been a billionare or anything, too much investment would reduce your gains
 126 2011-01-26 00:41:47 <Kiba`> how?
 127 2011-01-26 00:41:58 <luke-jr> TBC has a maximum of 7.7 Tam-TBC, which puts the TBC unit at a reasonable level for everyday spending when the world adopts it
 128 2011-01-26 00:42:12 <Kiba`> that's a lot of people
 129 2011-01-26 00:42:16 <Kiba`> 6 billion human beings
 130 2011-01-26 00:42:19 <Kiba`> soon to be 7 I think
 131 2011-01-26 00:42:22 <luke-jr> exactly
 132 2011-01-26 00:42:32 <AAA_awright> Kiba`: Basic economics. If you bought more, it would have become more expensive, reducing the gains you would get with each additional BitCoin
 133 2011-01-26 00:42:37 <AAA_awright> Or, rather, on the margin
 134 2011-01-26 00:42:55 <AAA_awright> You would have bid it up to its current price much sooner
 135 2011-01-26 00:42:56 <luke-jr> 7.7 Tam is 1,0000,0000 (tonal) aka 4.2 billion (decimal)
 136 2011-01-26 00:43:04 <luke-jr> err
 137 2011-01-26 00:43:08 <luke-jr> that's 1 Tam, not 7.7 ☺
 138 2011-01-26 00:43:23 <luke-jr> 7.7 Tam is like 32 billion in decimal
 139 2011-01-26 00:44:18 <Kiba`> a very small fraction of humanity use bitcoin
 140 2011-01-26 00:44:31 <luke-jr> Kiba`: today.
 141 2011-01-26 00:44:39 <Kiba`> did ya
 142 2011-01-26 00:44:43 <Kiba`> read the magazine?
 143 2011-01-26 00:44:48 <luke-jr> no
 144 2011-01-26 00:44:54 <luke-jr> it costs too much
 145 2011-01-26 00:45:02 <Kiba`> now it cost nothing!
 146 2011-01-26 00:45:02 <luke-jr> maybe when I get a GPU
 147 2011-01-26 00:45:03 <dirtyfilthy> wtf is the point of tonal bitcoin
 148 2011-01-26 00:45:16 <Kiba`> http://fabianhjr.co.cc/theBitcoinTimes/issue001.pdf
 149 2011-01-26 00:45:26 <Kiba`> you can read it for free
 150 2011-01-26 00:45:36 <Kiba`> you can thanks noagendamarket and...
 151 2011-01-26 00:45:41 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: first, a currency for use with the Tonal system despite government non-adoption
 152 2011-01-26 00:45:42 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: second, a long-term solution to the too-few-bitcoin problem
 153 2011-01-26 00:45:53 <fabianhjr> Thanks to our advertisers. Please Dragons.tl and The Bitcoin Investment club are awesome!
 154 2011-01-26 00:45:54 <Kiba`> Dragon Tales
 155 2011-01-26 00:46:08 <dirtyfilthy> ok, i really don't want to learn a new system of counting when i have a perfectly good decimal one
 156 2011-01-26 00:46:12 <fabianhjr> Kiba`: it is eGenesis. :p
 157 2011-01-26 00:46:21 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: decimal isn't perfectly good, it sucks
 158 2011-01-26 00:46:33 <Kiba`> decimal is good!
 159 2011-01-26 00:46:38 <Kiba`> I don't understand how tonal is good
 160 2011-01-26 00:46:43 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr: you'd have to make a very strong case for me to change
 161 2011-01-26 00:46:44 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: lots of people don't want to learn a new system of money when they have a perfectly good USD ;)
 162 2011-01-26 00:46:49 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: read the book
 163 2011-01-26 00:46:52 <dirtyfilthy> nah
 164 2011-01-26 00:46:53 <luke-jr> http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/tonal-system/10991090
 165 2011-01-26 00:46:56 <dirtyfilthy> my time is limited
 166 2011-01-26 00:47:02 <Kiba`> luke-jr: read the mag for free?
 167 2011-01-26 00:47:04 <dirtyfilthy> and i can't see this helpig me
 168 2011-01-26 00:47:05 <fabianhjr> I will just stick to 1 BTC == 100000 uBTC == 10**12 nBTC :P
 169 2011-01-26 00:47:11 <luke-jr> Kiba`: I will, when it finishes the long download
 170 2011-01-26 00:47:22 <luke-jr> fabianhjr: nBTC doesn't exist :p
 171 2011-01-26 00:47:33 <fabianhjr> luke-jr: JET!
 172 2011-01-26 00:47:33 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: SI-prefixes
 173 2011-01-26 00:47:42 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: SI sucks just as much as decimal which it's based on
 174 2011-01-26 00:47:54 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: That doesn't mean it doesn't exist
 175 2011-01-26 00:48:03 <luke-jr> but it doesn't.
 176 2011-01-26 00:48:06 <luke-jr> nBTC is too small to exist
 177 2011-01-26 00:48:18 <luke-jr> the smallest unit is a cuBTC
 178 2011-01-26 00:48:22 <luke-jr> or is it ucBTC?
 179 2011-01-26 00:48:29 <AAA_awright> That just means you will have quantities > 10
 180 2011-01-26 00:48:29 <gavinandresen> Decimal Rocks!  Go Big Ten!
 181 2011-01-26 00:48:32 <luke-jr> or uBTCent? :p
 182 2011-01-26 00:48:34 <AAA_awright> or whatever
 183 2011-01-26 00:48:55 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It means that 1 nBTC is impossible, but not to say that the unit nBTC "doesn't exist"
 184 2011-01-26 00:49:03 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: meh, fine
 185 2011-01-26 00:49:20 <luke-jr> either way, I hate SI/decimal, so it *shouldn't* exist :P
 186 2011-01-26 00:49:34 <dirtyfilthy> what is the problem with decimal?
 187 2011-01-26 00:49:39 <gavinandresen> If God meant us to count in hex, she would've given us sixteen teeth.
 188 2011-01-26 00:49:41 <Kiba`> the bitcoin economy is so small ;_;
 189 2011-01-26 00:49:47 <Kiba`> grow and grwo and grow!
 190 2011-01-26 00:49:50 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It's been the de-facto number system since numbers were invented, and anywhere we need a base-2 based system we use Hexadecimal
 191 2011-01-26 00:49:55 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: it's unnatural and difficult to work with
 192 2011-01-26 00:49:56 <Kiba`> gavinandresen: god is a woman?
 193 2011-01-26 00:49:58 <AAA_awright> So live with it, that or hexadecimal
 194 2011-01-26 00:50:04 <gavinandresen> Kiba`: last I checked
 195 2011-01-26 00:50:17 <Kiba`> shouldn't it be goddess?
 196 2011-01-26 00:50:26 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: hexadecimal is not a complete unit system
 197 2011-01-26 00:50:31 <jgarzik> goddess dressing
 198 2011-01-26 00:50:38 <Kiba`> I follow the religion Discordianism
 199 2011-01-26 00:50:41 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Uh yeah it is, I can represent any quantity I want with it
 200 2011-01-26 00:50:58 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: what is the standard hexadecimal length?
 201 2011-01-26 00:51:01 * Kiba` is a discordist
 202 2011-01-26 00:51:07 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Uh, the meter
 203 2011-01-26 00:51:07 <luke-jr> or clock?
 204 2011-01-26 00:51:09 <luke-jr> or calendar?
 205 2011-01-26 00:51:16 <luke-jr> there is no hexadecimal meter
 206 2011-01-26 00:51:35 <luke-jr> there is a SI/decimal meter and a tonal metere
 207 2011-01-26 00:51:38 <luke-jr> meter*
 208 2011-01-26 00:51:46 <AAA_awright> Yes there is, 22.5 m = x16.8 m
 209 2011-01-26 00:51:55 <luke-jr> nope.
 210 2011-01-26 00:52:06 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Units don't care about the number system you use
 211 2011-01-26 00:52:10 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: They exist outside numbers
 212 2011-01-26 00:52:21 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: wrong, SI is based on decimal
 213 2011-01-26 00:52:29 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Not the base units
 214 2011-01-26 00:52:38 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Which is the meter, kilogram, second
 215 2011-01-26 00:53:01 <AAA_awright> You fail math forever
 216 2011-01-26 00:53:04 <luke-jr> then what are they based on?
 217 2011-01-26 00:53:13 <luke-jr> at least tonal's base units are logical
 218 2011-01-26 00:53:13 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: RE "trusted build process"  definitely a good idea, but it's a lot of work, ironing out all the timestamps and rand(3) calls that create a non-deterministic output.  It winds up, in practice, being loads easier simply to trust satoshi and his PGP key, or you and your PGP key, etc.
 219 2011-01-26 00:53:13 <dirtyfilthy> they are arbitary essentially
 220 2011-01-26 00:53:19 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Specific universal constants
 221 2011-01-26 00:53:33 <luke-jr> yet another reason SI sucks
 222 2011-01-26 00:53:34 <luke-jr> :P
 223 2011-01-26 00:53:39 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: The second is defined in terms of a cesium atom, the meter on the speed of light and the second
 224 2011-01-26 00:53:52 <jgarzik> of course, the thread really should be named "untrusted build process"
 225 2011-01-26 00:53:58 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  but satoshi and I want to get out of the build business...
 226 2011-01-26 00:54:00 <AAA_awright> The kilogram is a hunk of metal in Paris but they're working on that
 227 2011-01-26 00:54:25 <luke-jr> yawn
 228 2011-01-26 00:54:29 <luke-jr> so arbitrary nonsense values
 229 2011-01-26 00:54:31 <luke-jr> how stupid
 230 2011-01-26 00:54:32 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: understandable from a patent standpoint, definitely
 231 2011-01-26 00:54:38 <dirtyfilthy> you're not explaining why tonal is any better
 232 2011-01-26 00:54:41 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Well what else do you use?
 233 2011-01-26 00:54:51 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: from my testing, objdump -d (disassemble) | shasum   gives nice, deterministic output.
 234 2011-01-26 00:55:02 <AAA_awright> It has to be arbritary, there's no construct of "units" in the universe, things just exist
 235 2011-01-26 00:55:12 <gavinandresen> (given same compiler version, libraries, etc).
 236 2011-01-26 00:55:17 <devon_hillard> we should use units based on integer values of Planck constants
 237 2011-01-26 00:55:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yep, it usually does
 238 2011-01-26 00:55:25 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: the Tonal system defines 10 Tim as the circumference of the Earth, and 1 Timmill = 1 millmeter
 239 2011-01-26 00:55:27 <Kiba`> wee!
 240 2011-01-26 00:55:33 <Kiba`> second successful issue
 241 2011-01-26 00:55:40 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  what changes the 'usually' ?
 242 2011-01-26 00:55:41 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr: that is also arbitary
 243 2011-01-26 00:55:44 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: The meter is based on the circumverence of the Earth, but that isn't percice enough
 244 2011-01-26 00:55:46 <Kiba`> The Bitcoin Times is now rolling in bitcoin dough
 245 2011-01-26 00:55:50 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: not quite so arbitrary
 246 2011-01-26 00:55:59 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: It's *defined* in terms of univeral constants that don't change
 247 2011-01-26 00:56:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: sometimes the compiler will edit debug records that include timestamps, but after the whole "distcc" effort -- which relies on summing the assembler output -- most of those have been ironed out.
 248 2011-01-26 00:56:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: s/edit/emit/
 249 2011-01-26 00:56:07 <dirtyfilthy> actually just as arbitary. why not the circumference of the sun?
 250 2011-01-26 00:56:15 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: And in any event the circumference of the earth is just as arbritary as anything else
 251 2011-01-26 00:56:25 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: not quite.
 252 2011-01-26 00:56:40 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  current build process strips binaries anyway, so debug records shouldn't be an issue.
 253 2011-01-26 00:56:43 <Kiba`> luke-jr doesn't believe in evolution!
 254 2011-01-26 00:56:57 <luke-jr> the particular point of the Earth chosen for the height used, is somewhat arbitrary
 255 2011-01-26 00:57:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it's actually quite interesting.  you can do untrusted builds over the 'net with distcc:  send post-CPP output to N different nodes, and trust the build output based on shasum quorom
 256 2011-01-26 00:57:01 * Kiba` hides
 257 2011-01-26 00:57:04 <jgarzik> quorum
 258 2011-01-26 00:57:05 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: The only thing that would matter is efficency, it wouldn't make sense to define the base unit as something too large or small to physically see
 259 2011-01-26 00:57:10 <lfm> molecular: works for me, what versaion driver and sdk you have installed?
 260 2011-01-26 00:57:14 <AAA_awright> But that's just convienence, not to say you can't
 261 2011-01-26 00:57:29 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: that is nifty.  Overkill for bitcoin builds, but nifty.
 262 2011-01-26 00:57:32 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: for measurement, the base tonal unit is the tonal meter
 263 2011-01-26 00:57:42 daveparrish has quit (Changing host)
 264 2011-01-26 00:57:42 daveparrish has joined
 265 2011-01-26 00:57:48 <devon_hillard> one meter = 161.6 billion yotta-planck-lengths (we need more SI prefixes)
 266 2011-01-26 00:57:49 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: oh certainly.  it's more useful for the kernel and it's thousands of drivers, or rebuilding an entire distro
 267 2011-01-26 00:58:30 <luke-jr> so 1⁄1000,0000 the Earth's circumference
 268 2011-01-26 00:58:39 <gavinandresen> So, on the subject of builds... this afternoon I installed VirtualBox on my Mac, and spun up an Ubuntu 10-10 64bit server image
 269 2011-01-26 00:58:55 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: And how many meters is that? Certainly you can define a new unit, say, hm, which is 1/2 a meter... but that still has nothing to do with the numeric system (maybe it just makes work with a certain system easier)
 270 2011-01-26 00:59:11 <gavinandresen> Anybody have opinions on whether that's a good place to start to create a trusted build environment?
 271 2011-01-26 00:59:18 <Kiba`> measurement wars!
 272 2011-01-26 00:59:51 <gavinandresen> (I want a base-11 number system.  Eleven is my favorite number.)
 273 2011-01-26 01:00:00 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: 1 tonal meter = 5.86584 in
 274 2011-01-26 01:00:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: just establish a reference distro, reference package versions, etc.
 275 2011-01-26 01:00:16 <andrew12^mac> gavinandresen: what do you mean you "want" one? there is one
 276 2011-01-26 01:00:21 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: outsiders should be able to reproduce from there
 277 2011-01-26 01:00:23 <lfm> gavinandresen: works for me but just because I mosyl using ubuntu 10.10 myself
 278 2011-01-26 01:00:25 <andrew12^mac> 11 in base 11 is 10
 279 2011-01-26 01:00:31 <andrew12^mac> 10 in  base 11 is a
 280 2011-01-26 01:00:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: It goes to 11!  </nigel>
 281 2011-01-26 01:00:53 <gavinandresen> 11!  Exactly!
 282 2011-01-26 01:01:00 <andrew12^mac> (that is, if you use 0123456789a
 283 2011-01-26 01:01:03 <gavinandresen> Maybe I should wait for Ubuntu 11.11
 284 2011-01-26 01:01:15 <donpdonp> eleventy-one years is far too short a time to live amongst such noble and excellent hobbits.
 285 2011-01-26 01:01:20 <jgarzik> heh
 286 2011-01-26 01:01:23 <gavinandresen> Or wait to release the next bitcoin on 11/11/11 (I can hardly wait!)
 287 2011-01-26 01:01:30 <luke-jr> so 1 tonal meter = 0.149 SI meters
 288 2011-01-26 01:01:30 <jgarzik> eleventh breakfast
 289 2011-01-26 01:01:37 <donpdonp> jgarzik: har.
 290 2011-01-26 01:01:52 <luke-jr> assuming Google converted inches to SI meters O.o
 291 2011-01-26 01:01:55 kermit has joined
 292 2011-01-26 01:02:14 * Kiba` waits for noagendamarket to pop up and pay him some moar bitcoins!
 293 2011-01-26 01:02:20 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: So then why not just use regular meters again?
 294 2011-01-26 01:02:21 <gavinandresen> jgarzik, lfm :  can you give me a quick run-down on what's up with 64bit versus 32bit stuff on Linux?  I'm clueless about the whole issue.
 295 2011-01-26 01:02:54 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: because they're illogical?
 296 2011-01-26 01:02:55 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: can you be more specific?
 297 2011-01-26 01:03:13 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: There's nothing logical or illogical about units. They are simply certain definitions.
 298 2011-01-26 01:03:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: you mean stuff like trying to run a 32-bit binary on 64-bit OS?
 299 2011-01-26 01:03:19 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  E.g. why can't we just release a 32-bit bitcoin that works for both 32 and 64 bit LInux?
 300 2011-01-26 01:03:27 <lfm> um 64 bit is practiclly a whole new architechure except it supports a 32 bit sub-mode compatible to x86
 301 2011-01-26 01:03:40 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: because a 64-bit OS can't run 32-bit binaries
 302 2011-01-26 01:03:44 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: A definition cannot be illogical by definition, it's its definition!
 303 2011-01-26 01:03:52 <jgarzik> luke-jr: incorrect!
 304 2011-01-26 01:04:00 <gavinandresen> 64 bit windows and 64 bit macs run 32-bit binaries fine and dandy.
 305 2011-01-26 01:04:06 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: because a 64-bit OS can't /necessarily/ run 32-bit binaries
 306 2011-01-26 01:04:08 <lfm> gavinandresen: so to run 32 bit binaries you need to install 32 bit compatability libraries
 307 2011-01-26 01:04:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ignore luke-jr.
 308 2011-01-26 01:04:16 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that's because there is no pure 64-bit Windows, only 32/64 hybrids
 309 2011-01-26 01:04:35 <gavinandresen> lfm:  that's exactly what I didn't know, thanks.
 310 2011-01-26 01:04:37 <luke-jr> afaik Macs are still 32-bit userland, but I don't know Macs
 311 2011-01-26 01:04:57 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 32-bit binaries on 64-bit kernel is often MORE optimal, because of more compact code size, smaller binaries (less icache usage), smaller pointers for each datum, etc.
 312 2011-01-26 01:05:10 <luke-jr> jgarzik: that's not nice :P
 313 2011-01-26 01:05:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: therefore, it is common on Sparc and PPC to have _mostly_ 32-bit binaries on 64-bit OS
 314 2011-01-26 01:05:29 <andrew12^mac> luke-jr: well... you can make your mac boot in 64 bit by holding 6 and 4 while its booting (go figure)
 315 2011-01-26 01:05:31 <lfm> gavinandresen: prolly only want to build 64 bit binaries on 64 bit linux for now then
 316 2011-01-26 01:05:31 * luke-jr runs a 32-bit userland with a 64-bit kernel
 317 2011-01-26 01:06:08 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: x86 muddies the waters a bit.  x86-64 adds many more registers, and makes code much more efficient (32-bit x86 is register-starved, even with tricks like register renaming)
 318 2011-01-26 01:06:10 <andrew12^mac> so... anyone here know suse?
 319 2011-01-26 01:06:17 <jgarzik> x86 is essentially a compressed instruction set
 320 2011-01-26 01:06:36 <lfm> gavinandresen: especially tricky would be to build 32 and 64 bit versions of wxwidget pacages
 321 2011-01-26 01:06:51 <gavinandresen> lfm, jgarzik:  so to produce 32 and 64 bit versions of Linux bitcoin I should create 32 and 64-bit VMs?  Or is it easy to get the 64-bit compiler to produce 32-bit binaries?
 322 2011-01-26 01:07:10 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: the bottom line for bitcoin:  a 32-bit Linux binary is just fine for UI and JSON purposes.  You will sacrifice some khash/sec in the built-in miner, versus a pure 64-bit build.
 323 2011-01-26 01:07:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: bitcoin does not need more than 32 bits of address space
 324 2011-01-26 01:07:32 <lfm> gavinandresen: it is possible to create 32 bit binaries onb 64 bit system but it can be pretty tricky I think
 325 2011-01-26 01:07:41 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: chroots would be enough
 326 2011-01-26 01:07:42 <davex__> What's a good mainboard for running two 5970's?
 327 2011-01-26 01:07:43 <jgarzik> lfm: it's trivial.  CFLAGS += "-m32"
 328 2011-01-26 01:07:51 <jgarzik> I do 32-bit builds on 64-bit all the time.
 329 2011-01-26 01:07:54 <tcatm> could something like scratchbox be used instead of a VM?
 330 2011-01-26 01:07:55 <jgarzik> windows and linux.
 331 2011-01-26 01:07:58 <doublec> yes, -m32 is all that's needed
 332 2011-01-26 01:08:07 <gavinandresen> tcatm: what's scratchbox?
 333 2011-01-26 01:08:09 <luke-jr> jgarzik: will that work for the assembly?
 334 2011-01-26 01:08:09 <lfm> jgarzik: is trivial to make wxwidgets 32 bit too?
 335 2011-01-26 01:08:14 <jgarzik> lfm: yes
 336 2011-01-26 01:08:23 <doublec> scratchbox is what I used to get the n900 build on arm
 337 2011-01-26 01:08:28 <lfm> jgarzik: ok I never tried it
 338 2011-01-26 01:08:51 <jgarzik> luke-jr: qualified yes -- you get the 32-bit instruction set, but assembler will always let you generate weird shit if you really try.
 339 2011-01-26 01:09:14 <luke-jr> well of course, I meant the asm actually working in miners :P
 340 2011-01-26 01:09:34 <jgarzik> luke-jr: bitcoin's built-in miner does not use assembler AFAIK
 341 2011-01-26 01:09:44 <tcatm> gavinandresen: a cross compiler build environment that simulates a target enviroment incl. cpu emulation (e.g. arm on x86) but uses native compilers. pretty easy to have a bunch of targets that require only a few hundred MB diskspace
 342 2011-01-26 01:09:45 <jgarzik> and that's the only miner relevant to this discussion.
 343 2011-01-26 01:10:04 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I thought it supported 4way O.o
 344 2011-01-26 01:10:10 <jgarzik> luke-jr: that's C code
 345 2011-01-26 01:10:14 <luke-jr> oh
 346 2011-01-26 01:10:23 <doublec> does it use intrinsics?
 347 2011-01-26 01:10:25 <jgarzik> luke-jr: special compiler built-ins that access SSE2 data types and instructions
 348 2011-01-26 01:10:29 <jgarzik> doublec: yes
 349 2011-01-26 01:11:35 <gavinandresen> Right.  So....   it sounds like Ubuntu 64bit is NOT the right environment to build a release bitcoin/bitcoind.  Ubuntu 32 would be better   (I don't care about trying to optimize the built-in CPU miner)
 350 2011-01-26 01:11:44 * luke-jr wishes he knew how to write an AVX miner
 351 2011-01-26 01:11:57 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I would consider -not- doing a Linux build at all.  Consider letting the distro-specific packagers tackle that problem, and set up their own repos.  Punt on Linux altogether.  Windows is the only platform where you, as a project manager, _need_ to do binaries.
 352 2011-01-26 01:12:15 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: realistically, it's best to use your target OS to build packages for it
 353 2011-01-26 01:12:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: if you ask Fedora/Deb/Ubu package people, I bet that's what they'll tell you
 354 2011-01-26 01:12:36 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  that's why I'm asking
 355 2011-01-26 01:12:40 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I would agree, but the original BitCoin client is notoriously difficult to build
 356 2011-01-26 01:12:41 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: freshrpms and other third party aggregator repos do builds from source
 357 2011-01-26 01:13:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: then the user process is simply "add $pkg_repo to list ; apt-get install bitcoin"
 358 2011-01-26 01:13:27 <lfm> gavinandresen: ya source only for linux might wel save you a few headaches
 359 2011-01-26 01:13:39 <gavinandresen> I'm all for fewer headaches
 360 2011-01-26 01:13:50 <jgarzik> people will pkg it for you
 361 2011-01-26 01:13:53 <jgarzik> put efforts into supporting that
 362 2011-01-26 01:14:30 <gavinandresen> Any advice on how to get the three or four different groups who have worked on various packaging to FIGURE IT OUT AND SUBMIT SOME FRICKIN PATCHES ???
 363 2011-01-26 01:15:17 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you're welcome to merge my branch
 364 2011-01-26 01:15:26 <jgarzik> it doesn't help that bitcoin's build system is a bit ad-hoc.  Hate autotools all you want, but autotools ensures __automatic integration into package build systems__
 365 2011-01-26 01:15:40 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it also has a bugfix to avoid throwing away sub-cent change
 366 2011-01-26 01:15:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  uh huh.......
 367 2011-01-26 01:15:48 <jgarzik> the work it takes integrate a non-autotools pkg into Fedora or Deb is often 5x or 10x the work of a standard autotools pkg.
 368 2011-01-26 01:16:09 * jgarzik once ported all of Mandrake to Alpha, and non-autotools pkgs were 90% of the work
 369 2011-01-26 01:16:30 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: inside your Subversion checkout, you should be able to simply 'bzr pull lp:~luke-jr/+junk/bitcoin-tonal' I think
 370 2011-01-26 01:16:34 <luke-jr> assuming bzr and bzr-svn are install
 371 2011-01-26 01:16:36 <luke-jr> ed
 372 2011-01-26 01:16:56 <luke-jr> or 'bzr merge …' might work better, to review things before committing
 373 2011-01-26 01:17:07 <luke-jr> not sure how bzr handles a native svn checkout when you pull into it
 374 2011-01-26 01:17:55 <luke-jr> but if someone's done an autotools version, that might make more sense
 375 2011-01-26 01:18:05 <luke-jr> (in which case, let me know and I'll isolate my bugfix)
 376 2011-01-26 01:18:25 <gavinandresen> As you can tell, I don't know nothin bout cmake/autotools/etc..... I need somebody who DOES know something about it to step up and do it.
 377 2011-01-26 01:18:29 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: you willing?
 378 2011-01-26 01:18:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I'd just post Linux source and call for packaging-related patches.  Let people motivated in that area take up the slack.
 379 2011-01-26 01:18:53 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Yes, I would be willing.  I've done many autotools conversions.
 380 2011-01-26 01:19:08 * luke-jr pokes gavinandresen
 381 2011-01-26 01:19:11 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  awesome, I'll add you to the team
 382 2011-01-26 01:19:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: building on MSVC++ seems like a sticking point though.  not sure how to proceed there.  I can do Linux + mingw builds with autotools.
 383 2011-01-26 01:19:38 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  hmm?  I'm not going to learn Yet Another Revision Control System to pull your patches
 384 2011-01-26 01:19:40 fabianhjr_ has joined
 385 2011-01-26 01:19:49 <fabianhjr_> I got a quick question. How can you verify the BlockChain is legitimate? What signs each block? Could I in a LAN where someone starts to download the blockchain give him a rogue one?
 386 2011-01-26 01:20:18 <doublec> what are the windows builds done with? MSVC or MingW?
 387 2011-01-26 01:20:22 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: those single commands should work fine, but whatever. Subversion doesn't really work well in a distributed fashon
 388 2011-01-26 01:20:23 <jgarzik> doublec: both :)
 389 2011-01-26 01:20:25 fabianhjr_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 390 2011-01-26 01:20:31 <jgarzik> doublec: there are makefiles for each
 391 2011-01-26 01:20:45 <jgarzik> doublec: and I don't want to break MSVC if people really want that.
 392 2011-01-26 01:20:45 <doublec> ok, I've only used mingw to build it
 393 2011-01-26 01:21:02 fabianhjr_ has joined
 394 2011-01-26 01:21:06 * jgarzik thinks MSVC should be dropped, because the only excuse to avoid mingw is making the built-in CPU miner go faster.
 395 2011-01-26 01:21:14 <jgarzik> and that importance is greatly lessened today.
 396 2011-01-26 01:21:22 <doublec> I'm inclined to agree
 397 2011-01-26 01:21:25 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: how would you like me to prepare it for easier merging?
 398 2011-01-26 01:21:37 <doublec> on the other hand, getting all the required mingw packages and building them was a bit of a mission.
 399 2011-01-26 01:21:42 * luke-jr doesn't see what purpose the builtin miner serves
 400 2011-01-26 01:21:43 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: github pull request.
 401 2011-01-26 01:21:43 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 402 2011-01-26 01:21:44 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
 403 2011-01-26 01:21:46 <doublec> I guess that's the same issue on msvc (or even more so)
 404 2011-01-26 01:22:02 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  or send it to jgarzik :-)
 405 2011-01-26 01:22:05 <jgarzik> doublec: depends on distro.  We hired the mingw maintainer at Red Hat, so it's really easy on Fedora <grin>
 406 2011-01-26 01:22:08 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: has the project actually moved to git then?
 407 2011-01-26 01:22:09 * jgarzik runs
 408 2011-01-26 01:22:15 <jgarzik> :_
 409 2011-01-26 01:22:16 <jgarzik> :)
 410 2011-01-26 01:22:19 <luke-jr> it's really easy on Gentoo as well
 411 2011-01-26 01:22:19 <doublec> heh, good plan
 412 2011-01-26 01:22:32 <luke-jr> crossdev --target mingw32 … done!
 413 2011-01-26 01:22:54 <fabianhjr> I oppened USDp/TCP 8883 port and got knocked offline. LOL xD Crappy ISP.
 414 2011-01-26 01:23:16 <jgarzik> there is even an easy script "mingw32-configure", which runs "./configure" with necessary cross-compile args for mingw.  it's great, and damned easy w/ autotools pkgs.
 415 2011-01-26 01:23:30 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: would a git tree off-github be feasable? I prefer not to use notioriously proprietary software, even if webapps
 416 2011-01-26 01:23:33 <jgarzik> that's how I build cpuminer for win32 + win32 installer.
 417 2011-01-26 01:23:46 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  if nobody volunteers to maintain/build MSVC, then we should drop it.
 418 2011-01-26 01:24:12 <luke-jr> jgarzik: any plans for AVX support in cpuminer? ;)
 419 2011-01-26 01:24:43 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: cool.  in the meantime, my autotools conversion should not destroy the ability to do "make -f makefile.msvc"  autotools conversion merely implies changes to default makefiles etc.
 420 2011-01-26 01:25:02 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I accept patches!
 421 2011-01-26 01:25:13 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I failed miserably in my attempt to write one ☹
 422 2011-01-26 01:25:26 <luke-jr> I blame lack of example of how to use AVX :P
 423 2011-01-26 01:25:58 <luke-jr> Intel should publish some AVX examples
 424 2011-01-26 01:26:00 <luke-jr> or something
 425 2011-01-26 01:31:11 <fabianhjr> If I open my port(8883) how many connections can I expect and how fast would they fill?
 426 2011-01-26 01:32:08 <tcatm> 8883 or 8333?
 427 2011-01-26 01:34:01 <lfm> fabianhjr: Id guess no more that 25-30 at the worst and most of the time fewer, it goes up and down
 428 2011-01-26 01:35:34 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 429 2011-01-26 01:36:10 <gavinandresen> fabianhjr: the bitcoin faucet has 38 connections right now, after running for 24 hours or so.  I've seen it have as many as 60.
 430 2011-01-26 01:36:34 <fabianhjr> tcatm: oh, really? xD
 431 2011-01-26 01:37:57 <lfm> thats for a well known node, new nodes should be less
 432 2011-01-26 01:38:30 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 433 2011-01-26 01:39:35 molecular has joined
 434 2011-01-26 01:40:03 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: can I put my git branch off-github? I cannot agree to their ridiculous ToS
 435 2011-01-26 01:40:03 <lfm> molecular: works for me, what versaion driver and sdk you have installed?
 436 2011-01-26 01:40:38 <jgarzik> luke-jr: gitorious should work; I think that's 100% FOSS
 437 2011-01-26 01:40:58 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sure, that's fine.
 438 2011-01-26 01:41:12 <luke-jr> I just don't care to obligate myself to make a legal defense of github :p
 439 2011-01-26 01:41:34 <luke-jr> at my expense, even :/
 440 2011-01-26 01:41:37 <jgarzik> luke-jr: really any HTTP webspace will do, even.
 441 2011-01-26 01:41:50 <jgarzik> git supports HTTP pulls (although, they are slower than git pulls)
 442 2011-01-26 01:41:58 <luke-jr> sure.
 443 2011-01-26 01:42:04 <luke-jr> I have a git server myself
 444 2011-01-26 01:42:14 <luke-jr> but I'll use Gitorious in hopes that more people migrate there ;)
 445 2011-01-26 01:43:46 <fabianhjr> OMG no single block in over 20 minutes. What the hell? D:<
 446 2011-01-26 01:44:47 <luke-jr> …
 447 2011-01-26 01:45:49 <fabianhjr> C'mon don't stand there. Mine!
 448 2011-01-26 01:46:20 <luke-jr> I am
 449 2011-01-26 01:46:27 <luke-jr> at a whole 4.5 MH/s
 450 2011-01-26 01:47:36 <fabianhjr> LOL, I am doing 300 MHashes/sec and it is no longer enough. xD
 451 2011-01-26 01:49:48 <fabianhjr> Bitcoin going down to 0.40 BTC again. :P
 452 2011-01-26 01:52:06 <jgarzik> and if only I'd held onto my early bitcoins
 453 2011-01-26 01:52:45 <jgarzik> that 10,000 BTC that went to puddinpop for open sourcing his stuff would be worth a pretty penny
 454 2011-01-26 01:53:06 <jgarzik> all generated w/ built-in miner or purchase around $0.06
 455 2011-01-26 01:53:43 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: woulda coulda shoulda.... I wish I'd bought a bunch more at 0.005....
 456 2011-01-26 01:54:05 <jgarzik> :)
 457 2011-01-26 01:54:06 Slix` has joined
 458 2011-01-26 01:54:42 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 459 2011-01-26 01:57:14 fabianhjr_ has joined
 460 2011-01-26 01:58:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 'obj' dir in git seems weird.  would it be ok to add top-level obj/ directory to top-level .gitignore, and remove that tree from git?
 461 2011-01-26 01:58:09 <fabianhjr_> gavinandresen: you can still buy and they are probably going to be worth a lot more in the future if this gets adopted mainstream. :P
 462 2011-01-26 01:58:14 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 463 2011-01-26 01:58:26 fabianhjr_ is now known as fabianhjr
 464 2011-01-26 01:58:52 <Kiba`> fabianhjr:
 465 2011-01-26 01:58:59 <Kiba`> we need to discuss the new editor
 466 2011-01-26 01:59:04 <Kiba`> and next issue
 467 2011-01-26 01:59:32 <fabianhjr> :/ I got to go almost. I got a class and have another 5 minutes.
 468 2011-01-26 01:59:45 <Kiba`> I am thinking wednesday
 469 2011-01-26 01:59:53 <Kiba`> as the next perma deadline
 470 2011-01-26 01:59:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ... but the makefiles don't create obj/ if it doesn't exist, so git checkout then make would fail, yes?
 471 2011-01-26 01:59:57 <Kiba`> think you can handle?
 472 2011-01-26 02:00:13 <fabianhjr> For this W or next one to this?
 473 2011-01-26 02:00:18 <Kiba`> next one
 474 2011-01-26 02:00:21 <Kiba`> for next issue
 475 2011-01-26 02:00:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: correct.  hmmm....
 476 2011-01-26 02:00:44 <Kiba`> the editor will choose the deadline for submission...
 477 2011-01-26 02:00:51 <fabianhjr> Ok, I can handle it then.
 478 2011-01-26 02:00:57 <fabianhjr> Ok
 479 2011-01-26 02:00:57 <gavinandresen> (teaching makefiles to create obj/ would be OK with me, except I wouldn't know how to do that for WIndoze)
 480 2011-01-26 02:01:05 <tcatm> mkdir -p obj/nogui/ in makefile?
 481 2011-01-26 02:01:43 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: nod.   it's easy enough to create directories.  just asking why it was there at all in the git repo (and that question has been answered; thanks)
 482 2011-01-26 02:03:26 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: FWIW, autotools always drops object output in the current directory, making the typical srcdir != objdir workflow slightly different:  mkdir /tmp/mybuilddir ; cd /tmp/mybuilddir ; /usr/src/bitcoin/configure ; make
 483 2011-01-26 02:03:43 <jgarzik> cross-compiles and other arcane gadgetry work the same way
 484 2011-01-26 02:03:55 <jgarzik> srcdir != objdir is a common workflow
 485 2011-01-26 02:04:28 <jgarzik> of course, slackers like me often use srcdir==objdir for convenience
 486 2011-01-26 02:05:20 fabianhjr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
 487 2011-01-26 02:08:41 <andrew12^mac> hm
 488 2011-01-26 02:08:50 <andrew12^mac> is bitcoin compatible with db4.5?
 489 2011-01-26 02:09:11 <Diablo-D3> use 4.7
 490 2011-01-26 02:09:21 * andrew12^mac looks for an rpm for it
 491 2011-01-26 02:10:02 <molecular> lfm: ati driver 10.12, stream sdk 2.1
 492 2011-01-26 02:10:06 <gavinandresen> Hmm, that's another release loose end-- I don't think any windows people said whether or not upgrading to db 4.8 would cause them problems.
 493 2011-01-26 02:10:21 <jgarzik> andrew12^mac: I -think- so, but no guarantees.  Your main obstacle is to avoid building bitcoin with db version X, creating databases, then rebuilding with db version Y
 494 2011-01-26 02:10:33 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: good point.  what is current windows binary using?
 495 2011-01-26 02:10:37 <jgarzik> 4.7?
 496 2011-01-26 02:10:43 <gavinandresen> Yeah, 4.7 I believe.
 497 2011-01-26 02:11:27 <gavinandresen> 4.7.25.NC according to build-msw.txt
 498 2011-01-26 02:11:43 <andrew12^mac> I found a 4.7 rpm so all is good
 499 2011-01-26 02:12:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: boilerplate db disclaimer is that you should use db_upgrade when going 4.7 -> 4.8, 4.8->4.9, etc.  They attempt to make format backwards compatible, but do make changes from time to time, especially to tertiary files such as logs.
 500 2011-01-26 02:12:43 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yup-- I think all the problems I've seen have been with the log files as people DOWNgrade
 501 2011-01-26 02:12:48 <jgarzik> yeah :/
 502 2011-01-26 02:13:02 * jgarzik wonders how to detect that
 503 2011-01-26 02:13:11 <prax> hey I didn't even read your issues yet, halfway through the thread, but I might write something
 504 2011-01-26 02:14:51 * jgarzik is a nutter and actually prefers the blkNNNN.dat methodology (custom file format + fsync) over dealing with binary compatibility of a third party library.  Heck, files like addr.dat could be gzip'd JSON (yes, you can append to gzip'd files).
 505 2011-01-26 02:14:53 <andrew12^mac> http://pastebin.com/KDwzETEB -- openssl and libopenssl-devel is installed...
 506 2011-01-26 02:16:34 <andrew12^mac> (that's a make error if you're too lazy to click it)
 507 2011-01-26 02:17:18 <andrew12^mac> wait hmm
 508 2011-01-26 02:18:26 Kiba`` has joined
 509 2011-01-26 02:22:37 <andrew12^mac> this is irritating
 510 2011-01-26 02:22:41 Kiba` has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 511 2011-01-26 02:22:47 * ne0futur google error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
 512 2011-01-26 02:23:07 <ne0futur> you could need berkeley db  -devel
 513 2011-01-26 02:23:23 <andrew12^mac> that's probably why
 514 2011-01-26 02:23:27 <andrew12^mac> because i found an rpm
 515 2011-01-26 02:23:30 <andrew12^mac> its just not -devel
 516 2011-01-26 02:23:41 <andrew12^mac> http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/14272755/dir/mandriva_2010/com/libdbcxx4.7-4.7.25-6mdv2010.1.i586.rpm.html
 517 2011-01-26 02:23:41 <doublec> some distro's package the c++ part of libdb seperately
 518 2011-01-26 02:23:50 <ne0futur> use gentoo , you ll never have this type of problems ;)
 519 2011-01-26 02:23:54 <andrew12^mac> heh
 520 2011-01-26 02:24:15 <doublec> try downloading the libdb source from oracle - I'm still waiting for their page to load, sigh.
 521 2011-01-26 02:24:51 <andrew12^mac> going to try http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/14272748/dir/mandriva_2010/com/libdb4.7-devel-4.7.25-6mdv2010.1.i586.rpm.html first
 522 2011-01-26 02:25:36 <ne0futur> google mandriva error: db_cxx.h
 523 2011-01-26 02:25:51 <ne0futur> there are bugs and answers
 524 2011-01-26 02:27:32 <ne0futur> https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=45257
 525 2011-01-26 02:27:46 <ne0futur> you probably just have to add a msymlink
 526 2011-01-26 02:27:58 <ne0futur> There's already a symlink for db.h in /usr/include.
 527 2011-01-26 02:28:01 <ne0futur> Fedora and Debian are both providing symlinks for db.h db_185.h and db_cxx.h.
 528 2011-01-26 02:29:26 <andrew12^mac> ne0futur: its suse
 529 2011-01-26 02:29:56 <ne0futur> and you want to install a mandriva rpm on suze ?
 530 2011-01-26 02:30:10 <andrew12^mac> well i dunno. it might work? lol
 531 2011-01-26 02:31:48 <andrew12^mac> i dont know anything about rpm
 532 2011-01-26 02:32:18 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 533 2011-01-26 02:32:42 <Kiba``> so
 534 2011-01-26 02:32:46 <Kiba``> anybody read the magazine yet?
 535 2011-01-26 02:33:04 <andrew12^mac> im just gonna try building berkeley db from source
 536 2011-01-26 02:37:31 <ne0futur> it might work yes, but it will probably break everything :p
 537 2011-01-26 02:39:40 <andrew12^mac> hm
 538 2011-01-26 02:40:01 <andrew12^mac> you don't need to have any arguments in configure for it to build the stuff for c++ right?
 539 2011-01-26 02:40:33 <andrew12^mac> ah yes
 540 2011-01-26 02:41:03 <andrew12^mac> because i backtraced it!
 541 2011-01-26 02:41:20 riush has joined
 542 2011-01-26 02:41:49 <andrew12^mac> $ make me a sandwich
 543 2011-01-26 02:45:04 <jgarzik> $ make out
 544 2011-01-26 02:45:24 <andrew12^mac> lol
 545 2011-01-26 02:45:34 <andrew12^mac> make: *** No rule to make target `out'.  Stop.
 546 2011-01-26 02:54:18 <andrew12^mac> if i can get this to work, i'm going to figure out how to make an rpm for bitcoin and i'll make rpms for all these, and put them in a repo somewhere.
 547 2011-01-26 02:54:29 <andrew12^mac> that is, if i decide to be less lazy for a bit
 548 2011-01-26 02:55:29 <ne0futur> try to post your problems to build bitcoin on suse on the forums
 549 2011-01-26 02:56:45 <andrew12^mac> i'm building db4.7 right now
 550 2011-01-26 02:57:29 <ne0futur> also try updatedb ; locate db_cxx.h
 551 2011-01-26 02:57:46 <ne0futur> db_cxx.h could be here but not in path and you just need a ln -s
 552 2011-01-26 02:59:34 <andrew12^mac> pretty sure this is gonna work
 553 2011-01-26 03:01:24 <andrew12^mac> hm
 554 2011-01-26 03:01:27 <andrew12^mac> ;;ping
 555 2011-01-26 03:01:28 <gribble> pong
 556 2011-01-26 03:01:30 <andrew12^mac> weird
 557 2011-01-26 03:01:51 <andrew12^mac> ssh connection froze :\
 558 2011-01-26 03:02:03 <andrew12^mac> and i cant open another for some reason
 559 2011-01-26 03:02:32 <andrew12^mac> its responding to ping though o_o
 560 2011-01-26 03:05:52 ArtForzZz has joined
 561 2011-01-26 03:08:59 <dooglus> andrew12^mac: try ssh -M user@host
 562 2011-01-26 03:09:34 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 563 2011-01-26 03:09:56 <luke-jr> FWIW, db_cxx.h isn't in the include path usually
 564 2011-01-26 03:10:37 andrew121mac has joined
 565 2011-01-26 03:10:40 <andrew121mac> 21:56:41 -!- supybot [supybot@McInHost-3362242C.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout]
 566 2011-01-26 03:10:51 <andrew121mac> .-.
 567 2011-01-26 03:11:03 <luke-jr> w00t, I won a 5850
 568 2011-01-26 03:11:11 <luke-jr> $163
 569 2011-01-26 03:11:20 <andrew121mac> nice
 570 2011-01-26 03:12:03 andrew12^mac has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 571 2011-01-26 03:12:15 andrew121mac is now known as andrew12^mac
 572 2011-01-26 03:12:48 <luke-jr> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=150553802314&si=xHhjaUb88oWHhtvkLwlQWY9FRko%253D&viewitem=
 573 2011-01-26 03:13:15 <hacim> i got lucky with a 5970 today
 574 2011-01-26 03:13:33 <luke-jr> ?
 575 2011-01-26 03:13:34 <hacim> $280
 576 2011-01-26 03:13:37 <luke-jr> :O
 577 2011-01-26 03:13:50 <luke-jr> nice deal, but I wouldn't have the PSU to handle it possibly
 578 2011-01-26 03:13:53 <hacim> +$9 shipping
 579 2011-01-26 03:13:53 <luke-jr> only 500 W
 580 2011-01-26 03:14:03 <luke-jr> I'd probably have grabbed that XD
 581 2011-01-26 03:14:05 <hacim> should be fine its the 12v that matters
 582 2011-01-26 03:14:43 <luke-jr> oh well
 583 2011-01-26 03:14:45 <luke-jr> 5850 is its
 584 2011-01-26 03:14:47 <luke-jr> it is*
 585 2011-01-26 03:36:13 Slix` has joined
 586 2011-01-26 03:43:42 <Kiba``> an open source project
 587 2011-01-26 03:43:44 <Kiba``> with no backing
 588 2011-01-26 03:43:49 <Kiba``> no insitutional support
 589 2011-01-26 03:43:51 Kiba`` is now known as kiba
 590 2011-01-26 03:43:53 <kiba> no money
 591 2011-01-26 03:43:56 <kiba> launches a revolution
 592 2011-01-26 03:44:36 <kiba> that spans the globe...
 593 2011-01-26 03:44:39 <kiba> and that is...bitcoin
 594 2011-01-26 03:48:31 <andrew12^mac> !!!!!
 595 2011-01-26 03:51:58 <kiba> hmm
 596 2011-01-26 03:52:13 <kiba> andrew12^mac: so you read the The Bitcoin Times yet?
 597 2011-01-26 03:52:20 <andrew12^mac> no
 598 2011-01-26 03:52:50 <andrew12> well i read the first one
 599 2011-01-26 03:53:48 <kiba> we got the second issue out
 600 2011-01-26 03:53:55 <kiba> available for...free!
 601 2011-01-26 03:54:01 <andrew12> :O!
 602 2011-01-26 03:54:20 <andrew12> http://twitter.com/theUSpresident
 603 2011-01-26 03:54:34 <kiba> why a link to the US president?
 604 2011-01-26 03:54:57 * kiba wonders what to write for next week
 605 2011-01-26 04:02:02 <andrew12> kiba: its not the actual president
 606 2011-01-26 04:02:07 <andrew12> its a parody account
 607 2011-01-26 04:04:18 tedison has joined
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 615 2011-01-26 04:10:54 luke-jr has joined
 616 2011-01-26 04:18:29 <luke-jr> jgarzik: you're doing autotools? so no reason for me to re-do my qmake branch in git, right?
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 627 2011-01-26 04:49:37 <dooglus> jgarzik: have you seen cryptopp/sha.cpp in the source tree?  lots of assembler in there
 628 2011-01-26 04:53:06 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 629 2011-01-26 04:57:37 <jgarzik> dooglus: true.  I forgot about that.  It's in my cpuminer tree too, so I should have remembered :)
 630 2011-01-26 05:01:28 * kiba raise his hand and so some chromium hacking
 631 2011-01-26 05:01:37 <kiba> err
 632 2011-01-26 05:01:39 <kiba> extension hacking
 633 2011-01-26 05:01:40 <kiba> for
 634 2011-01-26 05:01:42 <kiba> bitcoin
 635 2011-01-26 05:02:25 <kiba> ah shit
 636 2011-01-26 05:02:30 <kiba> not today
 637 2011-01-26 05:05:51 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
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 655 2011-01-26 07:13:21 annodomini has quit (Changing host)
 656 2011-01-26 07:13:21 annodomini has joined
 657 2011-01-26 07:18:18 <sipa> ;;bc,mtgox
 658 2011-01-26 07:18:19 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.425,"low":0.3904,"vol":4096,"buy":0.4001,"sell":0.4197,"last":0.4112}}
 659 2011-01-26 07:26:58 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 660 2011-01-26 07:29:27 annodomini has quit (Quit: annodomini)
 661 2011-01-26 07:53:17 <tcatm> Yay. It's snowing and GPU temps are <60°C :)
 662 2011-01-26 07:53:50 <sipa> where do yoiu live?
 663 2011-01-26 07:53:58 <tcatm> germany
 664 2011-01-26 07:55:17 AAA_awright has joined
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 666 2011-01-26 08:19:44 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 667 2011-01-26 08:21:05 malfy has joined
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 669 2011-01-26 08:24:44 <molecular> good morning!
 670 2011-01-26 08:25:14 <molecular> one should make a poll, many germans here ;)
 671 2011-01-26 08:25:49 <tcatm> There's a poll somewhere in the forum
 672 2011-01-26 08:26:40 <molecular> I know from three people here where they come from. all german.
 673 2011-01-26 08:26:56 <molecular> one is me, of course ;) so that makes a low sample
 674 2011-01-26 08:28:07 <tcatm> We could arrange a meetup.
 675 2011-01-26 08:28:29 <molecular> yeah. I fear I'm the only one living in the northern part, though
 676 2011-01-26 08:28:46 <molecular> artforz is from close to regensburg somewhere, I'm in Hamburg currently
 677 2011-01-26 08:29:05 <molecular> and it's snowing where tcatm is, so probably southish?
 678 2011-01-26 08:29:09 <tcatm> I'm near Kiel
 679 2011-01-26 08:30:09 <molecular> couldn't have been more wrong ;) snow? hm...
 680 2011-01-26 08:31:01 <tcatm> Still > 100km away so it's not surprising it's not snowing in Hamburg.
 681 2011-01-26 08:32:06 <molecular> yeah
 682 2011-01-26 08:32:47 <molecular> we _could_ have a meeting, I suppose. talk, brag about our miners, order overprized pizza for btc,...
 683 2011-01-26 08:33:46 <tcatm> Is there a pizza service that accepts BTC?
 684 2011-01-26 08:34:15 <molecular> I don't think so, but there are stories about people paying 10.000 for one pizza, respectively selling it
 685 2011-01-26 08:34:48 <molecular> lyspooner told be he sold one for 6.000
 686 2011-01-26 08:34:52 <molecular> well... stories.
 687 2011-01-26 08:34:58 <molecular> s/be/me
 688 2011-01-26 08:36:39 <molecular> diablos miner went all "hog all cpu, hashrate drop way down" on me last night. I think I might switch back to m0's.
 689 2011-01-26 08:37:31 devon_hillard has joined
 690 2011-01-26 08:38:54 <tcatm> Yep, his miner is strange sometimes
 691 2011-01-26 08:38:55 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
 692 2011-01-26 08:38:57 <gribble> Current Blocks: 104659 | Current Difficulty: 18437.64439217 | Next Difficulty At Block: 104831 | Next Difficulty In: 172 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 23 hours, 47 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 21952.52503258
 693 2011-01-26 08:39:12 <tcatm> Found me 5 blocks this night, though so it's at least working
 694 2011-01-26 08:40:28 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
 695 2011-01-26 08:40:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 104661 | Current Difficulty: 18437.64439217 | Next Difficulty At Block: 104831 | Next Difficulty In: 170 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 23 hours, 28 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 21973.30277294
 696 2011-01-26 08:41:04 <cosurgi> 2 blocks on less than minutes
 697 2011-01-26 08:41:58 <molecular> fortuna has been sitting on them
 698 2011-01-26 08:48:28 dirtyfilthy has quit (Quit: Changing server)
 699 2011-01-26 08:50:49 dirtyfilthy has joined
 700 2011-01-26 08:55:42 <cosurgi> ;;bc,target
 701 2011-01-26 08:55:43 <gribble> Error: "bc,target" is not a valid command.
 702 2011-01-26 08:55:55 <cosurgi> ;;target
 703 2011-01-26 08:55:55 <gribble> I do not know about 'target', but I do know about these similar topics: 'trade'
 704 2011-01-26 08:56:38 <molecular> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=gribble
 705 2011-01-26 08:59:30 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 706 2011-01-26 09:00:28 Guest50437 is now known as sneak
 707 2011-01-26 09:00:37 sneak has quit (Changing host)
 708 2011-01-26 09:00:37 sneak has joined
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 710 2011-01-26 09:02:22 <cosurgi> ;;bc,diff
 711 2011-01-26 09:02:23 <gribble> 18437.64439217
 712 2011-01-26 09:02:34 <cosurgi> thanks.
 713 2011-01-26 09:02:45 <cosurgi> I want to check the hex representation of target
 714 2011-01-26 09:10:24 <sipa> http://blockexplorer.com/q/hextarget
 715 2011-01-26 09:15:20 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 716 2011-01-26 09:19:55 noagendamarket has joined
 717 2011-01-26 09:20:47 <cosurgi> thanks
 718 2011-01-26 09:21:33 <molecular> I'm unclear about something: How often does the info returned by "getwork" change? only in between blocks or whenever there is a new transaction?
 719 2011-01-26 09:21:52 <cosurgi> molecular: I think it changes every second.
 720 2011-01-26 09:22:31 <molecular> but then a getwork interval of 5 seconds would make me hash on wrong data for 4 seconds of the 5.
 721 2011-01-26 09:22:37 <tcatm> molecular: It should change whenever there's a new TX
 722 2011-01-26 09:22:37 <cosurgi> I know that there is a unix time in inpu data for hashing. I'm just not sure if this time is provided by getwork or by client.
 723 2011-01-26 09:23:09 <cosurgi> all P2P clients accept small deviation from current time - understanding that there must be some time spent on hashing.
 724 2011-01-26 09:23:29 <cosurgi> there is a formula for maximum accepted time deviation, I just don't remember it.
 725 2011-01-26 09:23:31 <Diablo-D3> molecular: it changes every time you pull it.
 726 2011-01-26 09:23:55 <molecular> I'm hashing in slush's pool at 540mhash/s. how often should I pull?
 727 2011-01-26 09:23:55 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: are you happy with you new miner?
 728 2011-01-26 09:24:04 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: I... guess?
 729 2011-01-26 09:24:08 <cosurgi> *your
 730 2011-01-26 09:24:09 <Diablo-D3> molecular: the default.
 731 2011-01-26 09:24:16 <molecular> ok
 732 2011-01-26 09:24:39 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: nice :) I wasn't sure, due to hasmeter, and also look at this: (let me find)
 733 2011-01-26 09:24:46 <cosurgi> 09:31 < molecular> diablos miner went all "hog all cpu, hashrate drop way down" on me last night. I think I might switch back to m0's.
 734 2011-01-26 09:24:52 <cosurgi> molecular: care to explain?
 735 2011-01-26 09:24:58 <Diablo-D3> sounds like molecular was on drugs.
 736 2011-01-26 09:25:05 <cosurgi> :)
 737 2011-01-26 09:25:14 <Diablo-D3> I keep telling people to use sdk 2.1
 738 2011-01-26 09:25:16 <Diablo-D3> but they dont listen
 739 2011-01-26 09:25:20 <molecular> Diablo-D3, your miner had some bad behaviour last night. It went down to 10mhash/s (540 normal) and hogged the cpu (java thread).
 740 2011-01-26 09:25:26 <molecular> no drugs, sadly
 741 2011-01-26 09:25:36 <molecular> I am using sdk 2.1
 742 2011-01-26 09:25:46 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
 743 2011-01-26 09:25:53 <Diablo-D3> if it does it again, just restart it
 744 2011-01-26 09:25:53 * molecular shrugs too
 745 2011-01-26 09:25:57 asdf58 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 746 2011-01-26 09:25:58 <molecular> yeah
 747 2011-01-26 09:26:15 <molecular> no bad feelings, just thought I'd tell you
 748 2011-01-26 09:26:23 <Diablo-D3> the only time Ive ever been able to do that on purpose is when I could trigger the terminal change bug
 749 2011-01-26 09:26:33 <Diablo-D3> and I cant trigger that anymore
 750 2011-01-26 09:26:34 <cosurgi> tcatm: but you have found 5 blocks with Diablo's miner, right?
 751 2011-01-26 09:26:35 <molecular> what's the terminal change bug?
 752 2011-01-26 09:26:40 <Diablo-D3> molecular: switch vts
 753 2011-01-26 09:27:01 <tcatm> cosurgi: yep
 754 2011-01-26 09:27:15 <Diablo-D3> thats more than Ive found with my miner :<
 755 2011-01-26 09:27:25 <cosurgi> so the merge with ArtForz code is 100% success :)
 756 2011-01-26 09:27:40 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: seeing as I pushed it to git yesterday, I'd assume so
 757 2011-01-26 09:28:24 <molecular> cosurgi: I'm still skeptical about the new miner with art's kernel
 758 2011-01-26 09:28:25 <molecular> dunno why
 759 2011-01-26 09:28:34 <molecular> I'm using the older one
 760 2011-01-26 09:28:36 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3, tcatm: what -f setting do you use?
 761 2011-01-26 09:28:49 <tcatm> -w 128 -f 1
 762 2011-01-26 09:28:53 * cosurgi wonders: 1 or 5 or 6 ?
 763 2011-01-26 09:29:05 <molecular> why 128? not the max 256 ??
 764 2011-01-26 09:29:15 <Diablo-D3> 64 is faster
 765 2011-01-26 09:29:17 <tcatm> too little registers on GPU
 766 2011-01-26 09:29:26 <Diablo-D3> except for a very small number of people, 128 is faster
 767 2011-01-26 09:29:58 <tcatm> The kernel uses 23 registers
 768 2011-01-26 09:30:11 riush has joined
 769 2011-01-26 09:30:12 <tcatm> One CU has a total of 4096 registers for all threads
 770 2011-01-26 09:30:18 <Diablo-D3> er, no?
 771 2011-01-26 09:30:24 <Diablo-D3> it has 16384.
 772 2011-01-26 09:30:36 * tcatm checks datasheet
 773 2011-01-26 09:30:57 <Diablo-D3> and thats 16384 vec4s too
 774 2011-01-26 09:31:05 <molecular> the hasmeter averages over how long?
 775 2011-01-26 09:31:18 <Diablo-D3> molecular: 30 seconds unless you use -f 1
 776 2011-01-26 09:31:23 <Diablo-D3> well, below 5
 777 2011-01-26 09:31:30 <molecular> and with -f 1 ?
 778 2011-01-26 09:31:32 <tcatm> yes, you'Re right. 16k regs
 779 2011-01-26 09:31:53 <Diablo-D3> molecular: forever
 780 2011-01-26 09:32:26 <molecular> will have to wait quite a while for it to converge then
 781 2011-01-26 09:34:55 <Diablo-D3> I find it hilarious, though, this is about 2% short of maximum theoretical speed on my card
 782 2011-01-26 09:35:28 <molecular> how do you calc the "theoretical speed"?
 783 2011-01-26 09:35:40 <Diablo-D3> art did
 784 2011-01-26 09:36:02 <Diablo-D3> its 78.x something on a 4850
 785 2011-01-26 09:36:08 <Diablo-D3> I get 76.x
 786 2011-01-26 09:36:49 <molecular> actually, my skepticism against your new miner is starting to vanish
 787 2011-01-26 09:37:07 <molecular> hashmeter @590, still rising (570 with old miner)
 788 2011-01-26 09:37:18 <molecular> nice work!
 789 2011-01-26 09:37:34 <Diablo-D3> its going to take awhile for it to settle if you're using -f 1
 790 2011-01-26 09:37:51 <molecular> obviously
 791 2011-01-26 09:37:53 <Diablo-D3> fast cards + long kernel execution lengths, it'll take awihle for the miner to finally reach that
 792 2011-01-26 09:38:22 <molecular> what's nonce saturation??? tried all possible nonces?
 793 2011-01-26 09:38:40 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 794 2011-01-26 09:38:46 <cosurgi> molecular: yes, there are only 2^32 possible monces. Not much :)
 795 2011-01-26 09:38:56 <Diablo-D3> it'll trigger a getwork when that happens
 796 2011-01-26 09:39:07 <molecular> good idea, that ;)
 797 2011-01-26 09:39:40 <tcatm> It could trigger before that happens to keep GPUs busy
 798 2011-01-26 09:39:50 <molecular> it will keep hashing while doing getwork, right?
 799 2011-01-26 09:39:50 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: three execution queues
 800 2011-01-26 09:40:13 <Diablo-D3> so one being stalled for less than a second isnt going to effect anything
 801 2011-01-26 09:40:50 <tcatm> Does it use one getwork for all GPUs?
 802 2011-01-26 09:40:53 <Diablo-D3> no
 803 2011-01-26 09:40:59 <Diablo-D3> one for each execution thread
 804 2011-01-26 09:41:05 <Diablo-D3> so 3*gpu
 805 2011-01-26 09:41:16 <tcatm> k
 806 2011-01-26 09:41:32 <Diablo-D3> I tried a singular getwork for awhile, but it caused more problems than it cured
 807 2011-01-26 09:42:38 <molecular> if I use "-f 2", will I get a "moving average" hashmeter?
 808 2011-01-26 09:42:45 <Diablo-D3> no
 809 2011-01-26 09:42:48 <Diablo-D3> gotta use 5 or up
 810 2011-01-26 09:42:51 <molecular> ok
 811 2011-01-26 09:42:59 <molecular> will that hurt performance a lot compared to -f 1 ?
 812 2011-01-26 09:43:11 <Diablo-D3> no
 813 2011-01-26 09:43:26 <Diablo-D3> but if you're benchmarking its pointless
 814 2011-01-26 09:45:09 <molecular> what is best for benchmarking?
 815 2011-01-26 09:46:58 <molecular> it just said "nonce saturation" 13 times in a row. is that explainable?
 816 2011-01-26 09:47:33 <molecular> keeps saying nonce saturation like 30 times now. still finding some shares, though
 817 2011-01-26 09:48:05 <cosurgi> your cards are too fast, compared to getworks. You must getwork more often
 818 2011-01-26 09:48:14 <molecular> default is 5?
 819 2011-01-26 09:48:25 <cosurgi> I don't know
 820 2011-01-26 09:48:39 <cosurgi> you are using slush1's pool?
 821 2011-01-26 09:48:44 <molecular> yeah
 822 2011-01-26 09:48:59 <molecular> is the nonce smaller when using the pool?
 823 2011-01-26 09:49:00 <cosurgi> I don't know how to configure how often to getwork from pool
 824 2011-01-26 09:49:16 <cosurgi> it's not. the target is smaller: only 32 bits.
 825 2011-01-26 09:49:33 <slush1> I don't think 'nonce saturation' is a problem
 826 2011-01-26 09:49:42 <molecular> hey slush
 827 2011-01-26 09:49:45 <slush1> it just tell you that new getwork is needed
 828 2011-01-26 09:50:28 <molecular> well, but after a new getwork (which it says it does), there should be 2^32 more nonces to mine?
 829 2011-01-26 09:51:33 <molecular> slush1: love your cooperative, btw
 830 2011-01-26 09:51:40 <molecular> nice page, too
 831 2011-01-26 09:52:12 <slush1> yes, new getwork is 2^32 space to hashing
 832 2011-01-26 09:53:21 <Diablo-D3> erm
 833 2011-01-26 09:53:26 <Diablo-D3> molecular: nonce saturation is meaningless
 834 2011-01-26 09:53:28 <Diablo-D3> its just information
 835 2011-01-26 09:53:34 <molecular> ok
 836 2011-01-26 09:53:36 <Diablo-D3> theres a reason why it says it under debug only
 837 2011-01-26 09:53:40 <molecular> :)
 838 2011-01-26 09:53:41 <Diablo-D3> if it saturates, it getworks.
 839 2011-01-26 09:54:44 <molecular> ok, but still: why does it keep doing that once it starts happening?
 840 2011-01-26 09:54:50 <Diablo-D3> because it keeps saturating
 841 2011-01-26 09:55:04 <Diablo-D3> I am not surprised a card going almost 600 mhash/sec saturates in 5 seconds
 842 2011-01-26 09:55:22 <molecular> this only happened after like 10 minutes of running
 843 2011-01-26 09:55:37 <molecular> restart: no nonce saturation message
 844 2011-01-26 09:55:59 <Diablo-D3> 2**32 is 4200 million
 845 2011-01-26 09:56:03 <Diablo-D3> well, 4294
 846 2011-01-26 09:56:16 <molecular> 4200/600 = 7
 847 2011-01-26 09:56:22 <molecular> 7 seconds
 848 2011-01-26 09:56:56 <Diablo-D3> yes, and it triggers a little early
 849 2011-01-26 09:57:18 <Diablo-D3> it really triggers at 2**31
 850 2011-01-26 09:57:28 <Diablo-D3> so you have 3.6 seconds.
 851 2011-01-26 09:57:31 <molecular> you said before you might implement "early triggering". did you?
 852 2011-01-26 09:57:32 <molecular> ah
 853 2011-01-26 09:58:42 <Diablo-D3> since you have 3 execution threads, you dont see this like FPS*3 times a second
 854 2011-01-26 09:59:29 <Diablo-D3> no thats wrong
 855 2011-01-26 09:59:37 <Diablo-D3> it'd be 3 times before 5 seconds are up
 856 2011-01-26 10:00:16 <molecular> I should really turn off debug mode, just makes me nervous for no reason
 857 2011-01-26 10:01:10 <Diablo-D3> you'd have to have 2 5970s and a 5870 to consistently hit every saturation
 858 2011-01-26 10:01:12 <slush1> Diablo-D3: For some strange reason, my miner is crunching quite old jobs. When I have one 5970, average time from getwork to submit was under 5 seconds
 859 2011-01-26 10:01:27 <slush1> Diablo-D3: When I have two 5970 in one box, I have times around 10 seconds
 860 2011-01-26 10:01:39 <slush1> Maybe it is related to job queues in miner?
 861 2011-01-26 10:01:51 <Diablo-D3> slush1: probably not.
 862 2011-01-26 10:02:10 <slush1> but it's quite consistent
 863 2011-01-26 10:02:16 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but it could be your pool
 864 2011-01-26 10:02:20 <slush1> how?
 865 2011-01-26 10:02:34 <Diablo-D3> that'd be 12 threads getworking simultaniously
 866 2011-01-26 10:03:02 <slush1> when miner ask for getwork and calculate it immediately, I should have very tiny times per job
 867 2011-01-26 10:03:27 <Diablo-D3> yes it should
 868 2011-01-26 10:03:28 <slush1> so it looks like miner ask for getwork, but don't calculate it immediately
 869 2011-01-26 10:03:52 <Diablo-D3> the execution thread asks for getwork, blocks waiting for it, and then goes back to mining
 870 2011-01-26 10:04:02 <slush1> with one 5970, I had also times under second. Now when it hit 5 second per job, it is rare
 871 2011-01-26 10:04:23 <slush1> yes, but roundtrip is 40ms
 872 2011-01-26 10:05:03 <Diablo-D3> you're measuring only submits being 10 seconds old?????????????????????????????????
 873 2011-01-26 10:05:08 <Diablo-D3> er, goddamnit ? key stuck
 874 2011-01-26 10:05:19 <Diablo-D3> IRC + -f 1 may not be best combination
 875 2011-01-26 10:05:32 <slush1> no, I'm measuring all submits from my miner right now
 876 2011-01-26 10:05:38 <Diablo-D3> hrm
 877 2011-01-26 10:05:40 <slush1> and they are typically >7s
 878 2011-01-26 10:05:48 <Diablo-D3> 7s I can almost see
 879 2011-01-26 10:06:12 <slush1> my getwork rate is 5 sec, but there should be also much faster submits, you know
 880 2011-01-26 10:06:22 <Diablo-D3> slush1: well
 881 2011-01-26 10:06:30 <Diablo-D3> you have 3 execution threads EACH taking, say, a second
 882 2011-01-26 10:06:32 <slush1> but I have no explanation for 14 second from getwork to submit...
 883 2011-01-26 10:06:34 <Diablo-D3> when doing -f 1
 884 2011-01-26 10:07:17 <Diablo-D3> so 5 seconds almost are up, kernel is queued, two other kernels complete before it, it completes, you're at second 8
 885 2011-01-26 10:07:19 <slush1> yep, I have -f 1
 886 2011-01-26 10:07:40 <sipa> 14s delays = 2.5% extra chance for stale blocks...
 887 2011-01-26 10:08:37 <Diablo-D3> slush1: see if it still does it when doing -f 1000
 888 2011-01-26 10:09:24 <molecular> I dont know how this relates to "gewort to submit"-measurements: just did 50 shares in 390 seconds. that's 7.8 seconds per share on avg. seems a bit low considering slush said something about getting <5s average ?
 889 2011-01-26 10:09:40 <sipa> what's your hashrate?
 890 2011-01-26 10:09:46 <Diablo-D3> molecular: whats your hashrate?
 891 2011-01-26 10:09:51 <molecular> 606mhash/s
 892 2011-01-26 10:09:55 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 606000 1
 893 2011-01-26 10:09:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 606000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 7 seconds
 894 2011-01-26 10:10:04 <molecular> hmm, ok
 895 2011-01-26 10:10:16 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,calcd 75000 1
 896 2011-01-26 10:10:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 75000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 57 seconds
 897 2011-01-26 10:10:23 <Diablo-D3> that calc is off
 898 2011-01-26 10:10:36 <molecular> how the hell did you do <5s average on a 5970?
 899 2011-01-26 10:10:54 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd
 900 2011-01-26 10:10:54 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
 901 2011-01-26 10:11:01 <Diablo-D3> wait, its right
 902 2011-01-26 10:11:24 <sipa> that formula is actually not entirely correct
 903 2011-01-26 10:11:35 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
 904 2011-01-26 10:11:45 <ArtForz> close enough for all insensitive purposes
 905 2011-01-26 10:12:01 <molecular> moin artforz
 906 2011-01-26 10:12:19 <sipa> ok 0.0015% off
 907 2011-01-26 10:12:21 <sipa> good enough :D
 908 2011-01-26 10:12:28 <ArtForz> moin moin
 909 2011-01-26 10:12:32 <Diablo-D3> molecular: 2**31/(606m*3)
 910 2011-01-26 10:12:39 <Diablo-D3> er
 911 2011-01-26 10:13:01 <Diablo-D3> /3
 912 2011-01-26 10:13:07 <ArtForz> huh?
 913 2011-01-26 10:13:22 <Diablo-D3> molecular: thats how long it'd take you to do nonce saturation, not find a block
 914 2011-01-26 10:13:32 <ArtForz> ah, k
 915 2011-01-26 10:13:37 <molecular> 3.54
 916 2011-01-26 10:13:44 <Diablo-D3> and thats to guarantee nonce saturation
 917 2011-01-26 10:13:51 <Diablo-D3> no, 10.63
 918 2011-01-26 10:14:13 <molecular> <Diablo-D3> /3
 919 2011-01-26 10:14:30 <molecular> the 606  is the combined rate of the queues ?
 920 2011-01-26 10:14:33 <sipa> 2**32/(606M/3)
 921 2011-01-26 10:14:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: 31
 922 2011-01-26 10:14:44 <sipa> oh, yes
 923 2011-01-26 10:14:50 <sipa> 2**31/(606M/3)
 924 2011-01-26 10:14:58 <ArtForz> ignoring the top bit or something?
 925 2011-01-26 10:15:02 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah, its signed
 926 2011-01-26 10:15:05 <Diablo-D3> yay java
 927 2011-01-26 10:15:13 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
 928 2011-01-26 10:15:16 <Diablo-D3> its not like it matter
 929 2011-01-26 10:15:34 <Diablo-D3> on a 5870 speed chip, you're not going to see nonce saturation often
 930 2011-01-26 10:15:48 <ArtForz> you shouldnt really see it at all
 931 2011-01-26 10:16:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: molecular doesnt
 932 2011-01-26 10:16:23 <Diablo-D3> he was just confused at why my miner said it
 933 2011-01-26 10:17:28 <ArtForz> btw, tweaked my CAL kernel a bit yesterday, still same speed, but 3% lower power consumption
 934 2011-01-26 10:17:33 <Diablo-D3> LOL
 935 2011-01-26 10:17:47 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you said my card maxes at 78.x right?
 936 2011-01-26 10:18:04 <ArtForz> 4850?
 937 2011-01-26 10:18:07 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 938 2011-01-26 10:18:22 <ArtForz> havent done the math for 4xxx with precalculating as much shit as possible
 939 2011-01-26 10:18:28 <Diablo-D3> heh
 940 2011-01-26 10:18:29 <Diablo-D3> well
 941 2011-01-26 10:18:34 <Diablo-D3> its doing 76.x now
 942 2011-01-26 10:18:44 <ArtForz> with full double-sha2356 it's 75.3Mh/s
 943 2011-01-26 10:18:55 <ArtForz> *256
 944 2011-01-26 10:19:31 * molecular thinks about adding "seconds/submit"-value to the hashmeter
 945 2011-01-26 10:19:31 <Diablo-D3> yeah, and I was getting 74.6 with 6 rounds chopped off
 946 2011-01-26 10:19:31 <ArtForz> 78.67 leaving out the first and last 3 rounds
 947 2011-01-26 10:19:39 <Diablo-D3> molecular: not worth it
 948 2011-01-26 10:19:45 <molecular> why not?
 949 2011-01-26 10:19:50 <Diablo-D3> because its meaningless
 950 2011-01-26 10:20:43 <ArtForz> 80.1 or so with precalculating partial rounds
 951 2011-01-26 10:20:44 <molecular> it's directly related to BTC/day
 952 2011-01-26 10:21:25 <ArtForz> thats theoretical peak assuming 100% VLIW utilization
 953 2011-01-26 10:21:57 <ArtForz> so 76.x is really pretty damn good
 954 2011-01-26 10:22:20 <ArtForz> thats like 95% peak
 955 2011-01-26 10:22:37 <molecular> If I overclock too hard, might I get wrong hashes or will it always freeze?
 956 2011-01-26 10:22:46 <ArtForz> you might get wrong hashes
 957 2011-01-26 10:22:56 <Diablo-D3> molecular: you probably WILL get wrong hashes
 958 2011-01-26 10:23:01 <Diablo-D3> which is why my miner has a check for it
 959 2011-01-26 10:23:06 <molecular> so I might still see 600mhash/s but no shares found ?
 960 2011-01-26 10:23:13 <Diablo-D3> unlikely
 961 2011-01-26 10:23:19 <Diablo-D3> my miner will bitch very loudly
 962 2011-01-26 10:23:25 <ArtForz> depends
 963 2011-01-26 10:23:33 <ArtForz> it only complains on false positive
 964 2011-01-26 10:23:44 <ArtForz> false negative is a LOT more likely
 965 2011-01-26 10:23:51 <ArtForz> by about a factor of 2**32
 966 2011-01-26 10:23:54 <Diablo-D3> yes, but you wont get away with zero false positives
 967 2011-01-26 10:24:26 <ArtForz> depends really
 968 2011-01-26 10:24:51 <ArtForz> assuming randomly distributed errors, int's about 1 : 2**32 false pos : false neg
 969 2011-01-26 10:25:06 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 970 2011-01-26 10:25:07 <Diablo-D3> but
 971 2011-01-26 10:25:26 <molecular> you mean this: "error("Invalid block found on " + deviceName + ", possible driver or hardware issue");" ?
 972 2011-01-26 10:25:35 <Diablo-D3> hes doing a h == 0 every 7 seconds
 973 2011-01-26 10:25:35 <ArtForz> yup
 974 2011-01-26 10:25:41 <Diablo-D3> molecular: yes
 975 2011-01-26 10:25:54 <ArtForz> srsly, why not add a test mode?
 976 2011-01-26 10:25:56 <Diablo-D3> if your hardware is fucking up at that speed, _you will know about it_
 977 2011-01-26 10:26:02 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: meh
 978 2011-01-26 10:26:05 <molecular> what's that: "if(G <= currentWork.target[6]) {" (around the H==0)
 979 2011-01-26 10:26:18 <ArtForz> feed 1 or 2 known good block headers with varying starting nonce, see if you get the expected result
 980 2011-01-26 10:26:29 <Diablo-D3> molecular: checks if it meets the target.
 981 2011-01-26 10:26:49 <molecular> might a hardware error cause the target to not be met?
 982 2011-01-26 10:26:54 <ArtForz> thats exactly what I'm doing with my burn-in test
 983 2011-01-26 10:27:07 <Diablo-D3> molecular: I check if H even == 0, if it DOESNT, then theres a hw issue
 984 2011-01-26 10:27:12 <ArtForz> for known good block headers, see blk0001.dat ;)
 985 2011-01-26 10:28:29 <molecular> but if ! (G <= currentWork.target[6])) it won't even check H == 0
 986 2011-01-26 10:28:38 <molecular> but silently continue
 987 2011-01-26 10:28:52 <ArtForz> I mangle the starting nonces so every enqueuekernel a different VLIW unit gets the "good" hash
 988 2011-01-26 10:29:13 <molecular> that's why I asked if hardware trouble can cause (G <= currentWork.target[6]) == false
 989 2011-01-26 10:29:28 <ArtForz> finds hardware problems a LOT quicker than just waiting for a false pos to show up
 990 2011-01-26 10:29:29 <Diablo-D3> molecular: but the hardware doesnt check for G
 991 2011-01-26 10:29:36 <Diablo-D3> molecular: it only checks for H
 992 2011-01-26 10:29:49 <ArtForz> another good test: pyrit-calpp in benchmark mode
 993 2011-01-26 10:30:16 <Diablo-D3> molecular: the only thing that both the host and the opencl do is check for H
 994 2011-01-26 10:30:27 <molecular> ok, that answers the question, thx
 995 2011-01-26 10:30:42 <ArtForz> if pyrit says hardware error, back down the clock
 996 2011-01-26 10:30:48 <Diablo-D3> so yes, a hardware error can cause a wrong G
 997 2011-01-26 10:31:00 <Diablo-D3> its just going to be very fucking hard to do without also misidentifying H
 998 2011-01-26 10:31:35 <ArtForz> quite a few of my 5970s start producing incorrect reults 20MHz+ below "locks up" clock
 999 2011-01-26 10:32:27 <ArtForz> thing is, even with some errors it might still be a net gain
1000 2011-01-26 10:32:59 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: heh
1001 2011-01-26 10:33:07 <molecular> btw: restarting X causes the fan-control to go back to auto -> nice
1002 2011-01-26 10:33:08 <Diablo-D3> theres an entire school of thought that believes that
1003 2011-01-26 10:33:23 <Diablo-D3> molecular: yes, it reinitializes the chip
1004 2011-01-26 10:33:31 <sipa> is there no pplib command to let the fans go back to auto?
1005 2011-01-26 10:33:36 <ArtForz> nope
1006 2011-01-26 10:33:42 <ArtForz> well, there is one, but it's broken
1007 2011-01-26 10:33:46 <ArtForz> it sets fan speed to 0%
1008 2011-01-26 10:34:01 * UukGoblin just plugged the fans straight to the PSU :-]
1009 2011-01-26 10:34:01 <sipa> which is rarely what you want
1010 2011-01-26 10:34:02 <molecular> I asked how to put it back to auto a couple times here. someone said: not possible, need reboot. glad it's not true
1011 2011-01-26 10:34:11 <ArtForz> weird thing is, it works fine with ADL lib calls
1012 2011-01-26 10:34:59 <molecular> btw artforz: gave up on the fan_control linking problem for now. thanks for the code anyways
1013 2011-01-26 10:35:29 <molecular> I think the function signatures are different, but don't know how to read them form the .so
1014 2011-01-26 10:35:35 <ArtForz> really weird, it compiles and links fine on debian sid x86 and amd64 here
1015 2011-01-26 10:35:49 <molecular> yeah, someone else tried it yesterday, worked for him
1016 2011-01-26 10:36:12 <molecular> I think it was tcatm
1017 2011-01-26 10:36:32 <molecular> I might have some weird version of the ati-driver. gentoo says "ati-driver 10.11"
1018 2011-01-26 10:36:42 <ArtForz> shouldnt really matter
1019 2011-01-26 10:36:52 <molecular> but that's where libatiadlxx.so comes from
1020 2011-01-26 10:36:56 <ArtForz> the ADL interfaces I'm using havent changed in years
1021 2011-01-26 10:37:13 <molecular> puh. them maybe some gcc issue
1022 2011-01-26 10:37:21 <molecular> *then
1023 2011-01-26 10:37:57 <molecular> hm, you could send me your libatiadlxx.so, just to check if I can link to that...
1024 2011-01-26 10:38:43 <ArtForz> wild guess: you're missing some dynlib libatiadlxx.so links against
1025 2011-01-26 10:38:58 <ArtForz> or at least miss it in standard lib path
1026 2011-01-26 10:38:58 <sipa> molecular: still that problem with linking?
1027 2011-01-26 10:39:06 <sipa> about the missing symbol
1028 2011-01-26 10:39:21 <ArtForz> it's not missing, thats the weird thing
1029 2011-01-26 10:39:38 <ArtForz> what does ldd /usr/lib/libatiadlxx.so say?
1030 2011-01-26 10:40:13 <molecular> a lot of stuff like: "libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/opengl/ati/lib/libGL.so.1 (0xb760b000)"
1031 2011-01-26 10:40:21 <sipa> are you both using the same architecture? (32-bit, 64-bit, ...) ?
1032 2011-01-26 10:40:29 <ArtForz> does it say that for ALL linked libs?
1033 2011-01-26 10:40:53 <molecular> what do you mean "All linked libs"?
1034 2011-01-26 10:40:55 <ArtForz> iirc it says "missing" or something if one linked lib isn't found
1035 2011-01-26 10:41:08 <sipa> maybe that extern defined symbol in the C code has some types wrong, but are accidentaly correct for the platform ArtForz is using
1036 2011-01-26 10:41:25 <molecular> http://pastebin.com/bdQGsv38
1037 2011-01-26 10:41:29 <ArtForz> my code compiles and links on x86 and x64
1038 2011-01-26 10:41:39 <sipa> ok, nvm then
1039 2011-01-26 10:41:45 <ArtForz> against 10.9, 10.10, 10.11 and 10.12
1040 2011-01-26 10:42:14 <ArtForz> hurrrrm
1041 2011-01-26 10:42:27 <ArtForz> libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/opengl/ati/lib/libGL.so.1
1042 2011-01-26 10:42:41 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure thats not in the standard lib path
1043 2011-01-26 10:43:09 <molecular> can't be gcc version, can it? (4.4.4)
1044 2011-01-26 10:43:09 <molecular> does anyone know how to check the complete type-list (signature?) of a function in a lib?
1045 2011-01-26 10:43:29 <molecular> I tried objdump, mn, dumpelf
1046 2011-01-26 10:43:35 <sipa> is it C or C++?
1047 2011-01-26 10:43:39 <ArtForz> C
1048 2011-01-26 10:43:55 <sipa> then types arent encoded in the function name
1049 2011-01-26 10:43:57 <ArtForz> try adding a -L /usr/lib/opengl/ati/lib/
1050 2011-01-26 10:43:59 <lfm>         libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 (0x00007f7743d98000) works ok on my system
1051 2011-01-26 10:44:00 <sipa> so no way to know
1052 2011-01-26 10:44:06 <ArtForz> yeah, same here
1053 2011-01-26 10:44:07 <molecular> gentoo does some shit allowing you to switch opengl implementation
1054 2011-01-26 10:44:13 <UukGoblin> molecular, I don't think it's exactly possible without disassembling
1055 2011-01-26 10:44:15 <ArtForz> yay for putting libs i nweird places
1056 2011-01-26 10:44:39 <UukGoblin> there's patchelf that can change the location of the libs in an elf
1057 2011-01-26 10:44:51 <molecular> "-L /usr/lib/opengl/ati/lib/" when linking?
1058 2011-01-26 10:44:54 <ArtForz> yep
1059 2011-01-26 10:44:58 <ArtForz> my lGL is in /usr/lib
1060 2011-01-26 10:45:35 <ArtForz> it's a ati-specific libGL
1061 2011-01-26 10:46:59 <molecular> still no luck: http://pastebin.com/cEcFfC32
1062 2011-01-26 10:48:29 <ArtForz> looks like you're picking up a cpp lib comewhere
1063 2011-01-26 10:49:29 <molecular> where do you see that?
1064 2011-01-26 10:49:35 <UukGoblin> there's these -rpath and -rpath-link options
1065 2011-01-26 10:49:44 int0x27h has quit (Changing host)
1066 2011-01-26 10:49:44 int0x27h has joined
1067 2011-01-26 10:49:48 <ArtForz> -_gxx_personality_v0 is a libstdc++ symbol
1068 2011-01-26 10:50:49 <UukGoblin> passed via -Wl,rpath IIRC
1069 2011-01-26 10:50:49 <molecular> oh f.ck
1070 2011-01-26 10:51:06 <molecular> hhhhrm. I named the file ati_fan_control.cpp initially
1071 2011-01-26 10:51:12 <molecular> then used some generic Makefile
1072 2011-01-26 10:51:29 <molecular> renamed to .c last night, still didn't work
1073 2011-01-26 10:51:36 <molecular> now I cleaned everything and it works
1074 2011-01-26 10:51:37 <ArtForz> clean your objects, use plain ole gcc
1075 2011-01-26 10:51:39 <molecular> thanks for that hint
1076 2011-01-26 10:51:54 <molecular> how does gcc detect cpp/c ?
1077 2011-01-26 10:52:19 larsivi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1078 2011-01-26 10:52:23 <molecular> puuuh, thanks a lot
1079 2011-01-26 10:52:25 <ArtForz> no clue really
1080 2011-01-26 10:52:43 <molecular> maybe that "generic Makefile" did that somehow
1081 2011-01-26 10:52:59 <ArtForz> you probably still had a c++ .o floating about
1082 2011-01-26 10:53:24 <molecular> I recompiled a lot after renaming to .c
1083 2011-01-26 10:53:55 <molecular> well, don't really care... breakfast now, then will look at your fan_control ;)
1084 2011-01-26 11:13:24 <molecular> well, now I remember... in cpp you have to use 'extern "C" ...'
1085 2011-01-26 11:13:48 <Diablo-D3> so
1086 2011-01-26 11:13:52 <Diablo-D3> today's fredo and pidjin
1087 2011-01-26 11:13:56 * Diablo-D3 facepalms
1088 2011-01-26 11:17:56 pozic has joined
1089 2011-01-26 11:18:30 <pozic> My miner suddently uses 100% CPU. Does that mean it found something?
1090 2011-01-26 11:18:47 <pozic> I use the poclbm miner.
1091 2011-01-26 11:19:43 <pozic> It had been running for > 40 hours without any issue.
1092 2011-01-26 11:20:59 <Diablo-D3> ati?
1093 2011-01-26 11:25:35 <noagendamarket> did you delete system 32 ?
1094 2011-01-26 11:26:00 <cosurgi> I just noticed one thing: with old Diablo's miner all GPUs load was almost always 99%, with new one - one of three GPUs load is 96%
1095 2011-01-26 11:26:50 <cosurgi> other two stay at 99%
1096 2011-01-26 11:27:48 <pozic> Diablo-D3: yes
1097 2011-01-26 11:27:50 * cosurgi had cut a hole in the case, with steel cutting scissors. Now highest GPU temperature is 79 C. Before - it was 95 C :)
1098 2011-01-26 11:28:10 <pozic> noagendamarket: no idea what you mean.
1099 2011-01-26 11:28:27 <cosurgi> it's a hole on the bottom, where the second GPU is, the case is lying on its side.
1100 2011-01-26 11:31:27 RazielZ has joined
1101 2011-01-26 11:32:44 * noagendamarket has no idea either
1102 2011-01-26 11:32:51 <lfm> what sorta case is it? not a fancy one I assume
1103 2011-01-26 11:35:46 <xelister> anyone seen too high clock?
1104 2011-01-26 11:35:51 <xelister> what does too high clock cause on 5970?
1105 2011-01-26 11:36:04 <xelister> or - how do I know that given clock is too high (for mining). The box is also used as desktop
1106 2011-01-26 11:36:38 <lfm> erratic stability mostly
1107 2011-01-26 11:36:55 <noagendamarket> the ultimate case is no case at all ?
1108 2011-01-26 11:37:24 <lfm> like the antec skeleton case?
1109 2011-01-26 11:37:25 <noagendamarket> air cooled to the max...
1110 2011-01-26 11:37:46 <lfm> not the quietest tho
1111 2011-01-26 11:37:54 <Diablo-D3> pozic: 10.12?
1112 2011-01-26 11:38:22 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: gpu load is not a measurement of performance
1113 2011-01-26 11:39:01 <xelister> is there any GPU miner that does verify all the time validity of all calculated things?
1114 2011-01-26 11:40:19 <lfm> if you match the referance imlemnation for one hash the odds of your implementation being wrong are astronomically small
1115 2011-01-26 11:40:44 <xelister> lfm: but I ment to test gpu / opencl stability-validaity
1116 2011-01-26 11:40:53 <pozic> Diablo-D3: Fedora 14
1117 2011-01-26 11:42:14 <cosurgi> lfm: I go the cheapest route, all componentes except for PSU are the cheapest ones. sempron CPU, cheapest 5850 that I could find (2 year warranty, though).
1118 2011-01-26 11:42:52 <cosurgi> of course cheapest case :)
1119 2011-01-26 11:43:08 <lfm> so you might consider springing for a slightly better case next time?
1120 2011-01-26 11:43:19 <pozic> A case is a good investment.
1121 2011-01-26 11:43:30 <pozic> You can reuse it for a different machine later on.
1122 2011-01-26 11:44:02 <cosurgi> no, I have nothing against cutting holes in the case. I did this already to my backup server, which serves me 4 years already and is doing rsnapshot backups three times a day of all my 7 boxes scattered around town.
1123 2011-01-26 11:44:06 <lfm> otoh I like the coormaster elite 330, cheap and seems to have decent circulation
1124 2011-01-26 11:44:33 <lfm> and you dont pay for silly clear sides and so on
1125 2011-01-26 11:45:26 <lfm> coormaster -> coolermaster
1126 2011-01-26 11:45:31 <cosurgi> well, I put them far away, where noise is not a concern, add lots of fans and and UPS, and forget. They keep running. backup server has about 10 fans in it, and 9 HDDs :) raid6.
1127 2011-01-26 11:46:12 <cosurgi> its not a clean way, but cheap and robust.
1128 2011-01-26 11:47:00 <cosurgi> and it's actually a P3 :)
1129 2011-01-26 11:47:26 <lfm> oh never mind then, no one and nothing can help a p3
1130 2011-01-26 11:47:34 <cosurgi> um, no. sorry.
1131 2011-01-26 11:47:36 <cosurgi> model name      : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.00GHz
1132 2011-01-26 11:47:40 <cosurgi> a P4.
1133 2011-01-26 11:48:00 <cosurgi> I wonder where did my P3 go?
1134 2011-01-26 11:49:29 <lfm> ok I have a soft spot for p4s. I have had several of them given to me and I didnt even tear all of them apart for parts yet
1135 2011-01-26 11:53:22 MJD has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1136 2011-01-26 11:54:16 MJD has joined
1137 2011-01-26 11:55:28 <molecular> artforz: fan_control working nicely... don't see a need to fiddle with Kp, Ki, Kd
1138 2011-01-26 11:55:40 <ArtForz> well, try step load change
1139 2011-01-26 11:55:55 <molecular> step load?
1140 2011-01-26 11:56:02 <ArtForz> idle to 100% load and back
1141 2011-01-26 11:56:23 <molecular> ok
1142 2011-01-26 11:56:28 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
1143 2011-01-26 11:56:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 104680 | Current Difficulty: 18437.64439217 | Next Difficulty At Block: 104831 | Next Difficulty In: 151 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 55 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 21928.87509190
1144 2011-01-26 11:56:43 <ArtForz> thats why I added the "force 100% fan if current temp > targettemp + 5°C" safety
1145 2011-01-26 11:57:05 <lfm> ya it seems to work fine for me too but 77 degrees made fan zero so I reduced temp to 65 for result fan 30 percent
1146 2011-01-26 11:57:06 <molecular> yeah, saw that
1147 2011-01-26 11:57:16 <molecular> fan at 0% now
1148 2011-01-26 11:57:24 <ArtForz> with decent case ventilation and card idle it likes to settle for 0% fan speed
1149 2011-01-26 11:57:26 <pozic> The difficulty is going up 10fold?
1150 2011-01-26 11:57:34 <ArtForz> and then takes ages to ramp back up normally
1151 2011-01-26 11:57:34 <molecular> hm, actually pplib still reports 19%
1152 2011-01-26 11:57:39 <pozic> Never mind
1153 2011-01-26 11:57:52 <ArtForz> it's because the fan controller internally ramps speed
1154 2011-01-26 11:58:25 <ArtForz> setting fan speed 0->100% or 100->0 takes about 30 seconds to actually get there
1155 2011-01-26 11:58:52 <molecular> which might be too slow when I start the miner?
1156 2011-01-26 11:58:54 <lfm> oh its not due to zero speed stall start mechanical effect you think?
1157 2011-01-26 11:59:06 <ArtForz> nope
1158 2011-01-26 11:59:20 <ArtForz> fan controller hardware has a slope limit
1159 2011-01-26 11:59:44 <molecular> ok, the safety kicked in
1160 2011-01-26 11:59:49 <ArtForz> yep
1161 2011-01-26 12:00:02 <lfm> prolly a noise control measure so the jet blast doesnt startle people
1162 2011-01-26 12:00:06 <molecular> one could shorten the buffer or increase the frequency
1163 2011-01-26 12:00:15 <ArtForz> 1.0/0.5/1.0 is on the sloooow side to avoid oscillating
1164 2011-01-26 12:00:54 <molecular> does this way of regulating have a name?
1165 2011-01-26 12:01:04 <ArtForz> yes
1166 2011-01-26 12:01:08 <ArtForz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
1167 2011-01-26 12:02:10 * molecular learned something new today
1168 2011-01-26 12:02:33 <ArtForz> probably increase Kp and lower Ki
1169 2011-01-26 12:03:15 <molecular> if I adjust the refresh-rate (sleep(3) -> sleep(1)) will I have to adjust the P_x to get the same result?
1170 2011-01-26 12:03:19 <ArtForz> yep
1171 2011-01-26 12:03:29 <molecular> uhm, divide all three by 3?
1172 2011-01-26 12:03:37 <pozic> So, poclbm does not run stable here. After 40 hours it uses 100% CPU. Did anyone else also experience that?
1173 2011-01-26 12:04:05 <ArtForz> iirc leave p and k alone, i / 3
1174 2011-01-26 12:04:17 <ArtForz> errr, leave p and d alone
1175 2011-01-26 12:05:01 <molecular> ah, of course... makes sense
1176 2011-01-26 12:06:31 <ArtForz> it's kinda fun to play with params
1177 2011-01-26 12:07:07 <ArtForz> once could also factor GPU load into it
1178 2011-01-26 12:07:25 <ArtForz> which would kinda make sense
1179 2011-01-26 12:07:27 <molecular> one could also adjust frequency and have noise level as goal ;)
1180 2011-01-26 12:07:42 <ArtForz> yep
1181 2011-01-26 12:08:01 <ArtForz> adjust frequency to regulate card temp at constant fan speed :P
1182 2011-01-26 12:08:13 <molecular> and power consumption, price and mtgox exchange rate, hehe
1183 2011-01-26 12:08:43 <molecular> stichwort "smart meter"
1184 2011-01-26 12:09:32 <molecular> well, with difficulty rising and assuming btc value will rise, the only sane way is to go full power anyway
1185 2011-01-26 12:09:47 <ArtForz> yep
1186 2011-01-26 12:10:58 <lfm> molecular full pwer or off
1187 2011-01-26 12:11:05 <molecular> actually, initially I was just going to simply _buy_ some btc
1188 2011-01-26 12:11:20 <molecular> then I thought it might be more entertaining to mine a little
1189 2011-01-26 12:11:29 <molecular> little late to get in the game, though
1190 2011-01-26 12:12:33 MJD has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1191 2011-01-26 12:12:46 <ArtForz> depends really on electricity price
1192 2011-01-26 12:14:10 <molecular> yeah, well, I live in germany
1193 2011-01-26 12:14:10 <molecular> also depends on btc/eur value
1194 2011-01-26 12:14:25 <ArtForz> yeah, probably not a too good idea
1195 2011-01-26 12:14:38 MJD has joined
1196 2011-01-26 12:14:51 <ArtForz> $0.30+/kWh = suck
1197 2011-01-26 12:15:06 <molecular> jup
1198 2011-01-26 12:15:35 <molecular> might send miner to the states or somewhere when time comes. probably just sell the card for like nothing and let it go, though
1199 2011-01-26 12:15:36 Bth8 has joined
1200 2011-01-26 12:15:39 <ArtForz> it's like $0.08/kWh in canuckistan
1201 2011-01-26 12:15:45 <pozic> How can the German economy run on 0.3euro/kWh?
1202 2011-01-26 12:15:48 <molecular> ca-what?
1203 2011-01-26 12:15:52 <ArtForz> canada :P
1204 2011-01-26 12:15:59 <pozic> er dollar
1205 2011-01-26 12:16:14 <ArtForz> how it runs? fine. :P
1206 2011-01-26 12:16:35 <pozic> In France it is like 0.08 euro
1207 2011-01-26 12:16:39 <molecular> exporting alternative energy solutions
1208 2011-01-26 12:17:03 <lfm> france exporting neuclear solutions
1209 2011-01-26 12:17:05 <molecular> until one of your reactors blows ;)
1210 2011-01-26 12:17:15 <pozic> molecular: they cannot blow anymore.
1211 2011-01-26 12:17:28 <molecular> no?
1212 2011-01-26 12:17:41 <molecular> bad things can't happen? then the only problem is waste
1213 2011-01-26 12:17:44 <pozic> molecular: there are also fusion designs which are even safer with a higher yield.
1214 2011-01-26 12:17:45 <lfm> pozic kinda depends how stupid the operators can get
1215 2011-01-26 12:17:48 <ArtForz> my chart says ~0.12EUR/kWh in .fr
1216 2011-01-26 12:17:59 <pozic> ArtForz: your chart is wrong.
1217 2011-01-26 12:18:22 <pozic> It depends probably on how much you use, though.
1218 2011-01-26 12:18:29 <lfm> may vary by province
1219 2011-01-26 12:18:51 <ArtForz> probably does
1220 2011-01-26 12:22:50 <pozic> Alternative energy sounds nice, but as long as we don't have near free paint for solar and a way to store the energy it doesn't work.
1221 2011-01-26 12:23:07 <ArtForz> depends
1222 2011-01-26 12:23:14 <pozic> MIT invented something like that, but if it was so easy to produce I don't see why we don't have it yet.
1223 2011-01-26 12:23:19 <Diablo-D3> http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/TWUGjs_8d0M/provocative-metaphor.html
1224 2011-01-26 12:23:20 <Diablo-D3> what.
1225 2011-01-26 12:23:25 <molecular> I kinda like the idea using electric cars for decentralized storage
1226 2011-01-26 12:23:46 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw
1227 2011-01-26 12:23:48 <Diablo-D3> the real question is
1228 2011-01-26 12:23:51 <Diablo-D3> how fucking long is that 6990
1229 2011-01-26 12:23:55 <Diablo-D3> the photo makes it look huge
1230 2011-01-26 12:24:23 <ArtForz> looks shorter than a 5970
1231 2011-01-26 12:24:33 <noagendamarket> http://www.net-security.org/secworld.php?id=10493   heh
1232 2011-01-26 12:24:57 <ArtForz> hard to tell at that weird angle
1233 2011-01-26 12:25:13 <Diablo-D3> shorter? seriously?
1234 2011-01-26 12:25:17 <ArtForz> yep
1235 2011-01-26 12:25:24 <Diablo-D3> I dont think that card would fit in my case
1236 2011-01-26 12:25:40 <ArtForz> http://it.oc.com.tw/images/1101/201163044121194732630447638.jpg
1237 2011-01-26 12:26:05 <ArtForz> check length of card relative to PCIe connector
1238 2011-01-26 12:26:10 <Diablo-D3> no theres a better image out
1239 2011-01-26 12:26:16 <noagendamarket> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/01/11x0126h83amd.jpg
1240 2011-01-26 12:26:24 <Diablo-D3> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/26/amd-radeon-hd-6990-shows-up-in-its-metallic-flesh-looking-large/
1241 2011-01-26 12:26:24 <noagendamarket> it looks huge
1242 2011-01-26 12:26:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah that one
1243 2011-01-26 12:26:34 <Diablo-D3> it looks like a fucking xbox
1244 2011-01-26 12:26:39 <noagendamarket> lmao
1245 2011-01-26 12:27:01 <noagendamarket> you could fit the whole computer inside the card lol
1246 2011-01-26 12:27:10 <ArtForz> eww
1247 2011-01-26 12:27:16 <noagendamarket> maybe theyare gonna sell them as cases
1248 2011-01-26 12:27:27 <Diablo-D3> small mexican families could live in those
1249 2011-01-26 12:27:36 <noagendamarket> lol
1250 2011-01-26 12:27:39 <ArtForz> if thats really the cooler design, say goodbye to decent cooling performance
1251 2011-01-26 12:27:51 <lfm> seems like the new single slot width versions could be more power dense
1252 2011-01-26 12:28:06 <ArtForz> XFX custom 5970s had the same braindead arrangement
1253 2011-01-26 12:28:46 <noagendamarket> maybe you can remove the cover....
1254 2011-01-26 12:28:48 <molecular> looks like 5970 sizewise to me
1255 2011-01-26 12:29:36 <Diablo-D3> its gotta be bigger
1256 2011-01-26 12:29:42 <Diablo-D3> because Im pretty sure I can fit a 5970 in my case
1257 2011-01-26 12:29:45 <Diablo-D3> theres no way thats fitting
1258 2011-01-26 12:29:59 <noagendamarket> you could stick wheels on it and carry your luggage to the airport
1259 2011-01-26 12:30:15 <ArtForz> let's see
1260 2011-01-26 12:30:23 <Diablo-D3> dude, it'd stick wings on it and fly it away from the airport
1261 2011-01-26 12:32:03 <noagendamarket> the engine might overheat though...it doesnt look like much air cooling for such a huge card
1262 2011-01-26 12:32:33 <ArtForz> length of PCIe conn in that pic 101 px, card 292 px
1263 2011-01-26 12:32:35 <noagendamarket> maybe its a dyson and it  sucks lie a vacuum cleaner?
1264 2011-01-26 12:32:41 <noagendamarket> lol
1265 2011-01-26 12:33:30 <ArtForz> random 5970 pic, PCIe conn 173px, card 511px
1266 2011-01-26 12:34:17 <ArtForz> so 2.9 PCIe conn length for 6990, ~2.95 for 5970
1267 2011-01-26 12:35:13 <ArtForz> so about the same length as a 5970, maybe a tad shorter
1268 2011-01-26 12:35:17 <molecular> ArtForz, I modded your safety-logic: "if ( (newfanspeed == 0 && curtemp > targettemp - 10.0) || curtemp > targettemp + 5.0 ) {" -> starts up earlier and still doesn't interfere with normal operation
1269 2011-01-26 12:35:41 <ArtForz> neat
1270 2011-01-26 12:35:50 * xelister gives molecular a nice set of (((( )))) to use
1271 2011-01-26 12:36:17 <ArtForz> sorry, we need those for lisp
1272 2011-01-26 12:36:29 <molecular> xelister, I also need some ":" and "-"
1273 2011-01-26 12:36:44 <molecular> for lisp? that's not nearly enough for even the simplest task ;)
1274 2011-01-26 12:37:18 <andrew12^mac> http://xkcd.com/297/
1275 2011-01-26 12:37:41 <ArtForz> lol, yeah
1276 2011-01-26 12:38:27 <noagendamarket> Im not a coder yet I laughed at that comic
1277 2011-01-26 12:38:38 <noagendamarket> I dont know why lol
1278 2011-01-26 12:39:09 <ArtForz> old joke, LISP - Lots of Irritating Stupid Parens
1279 2011-01-26 12:39:47 <noagendamarket> yea I got that part :)
1280 2011-01-26 12:39:59 <ArtForz> so, looks like no go for 4*6990 without having to fuck with risers to get some air space between em
1281 2011-01-26 12:40:01 <andrew12^mac> but who was Scheme?
1282 2011-01-26 12:41:24 <lfm> andrew12just a brand name dialect
1283 2011-01-26 12:41:24 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1284 2011-01-26 12:41:38 <andrew12^mac> heh
1285 2011-01-26 12:41:57 <molecular> can I overclock higher when the chips are cooler? a lot, or just a little?
1286 2011-01-26 12:41:58 <lfm> like basic is to gwbasic
1287 2011-01-26 12:42:21 <ArtForz> usually yes, and usually 10-20 MHz
1288 2011-01-26 12:42:56 <ArtForz> probably quite a bit more if you were close to 90°C before
1289 2011-01-26 12:43:02 <andrew12> wut if i put my gpu in the snow? :p
1290 2011-01-26 12:43:17 <andrew12> (i dont even have a gpu)
1291 2011-01-26 12:43:35 <lfm> youd be checking your product return conditions
1292 2011-01-26 12:43:36 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1293 2011-01-26 12:45:01 <slush1> Diablo-D3: I have just another problem with one miner box. Miner started with all 4 devices, but after some time, one device after one device hangs in miner. Sometimes it run on 4 devices for few hours, but sometimes it hangs few minutes after restart
1294 2011-01-26 12:45:14 andrew12^mac has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1295 2011-01-26 12:45:31 <ArtForz> keep core temp low and most 5970s can hit >850MHz @ stock V
1296 2011-01-26 12:45:31 <slush1> Diablo-D3: Ctrl+C does not work when there are stopped devices
1297 2011-01-26 12:45:40 <ArtForz> yeah, they crashed
1298 2011-01-26 12:46:09 <slush1> Diablo-D3: so I have to kill process directly. Then I see in top "java <defunct>" which take 100% of CPU...
1299 2011-01-26 12:46:11 <sipa> ArtForz: mine locks up easily over 820MHz
1300 2011-01-26 12:46:16 <ArtForz> probably overheating or OCed too far
1301 2011-01-26 12:46:33 <ArtForz> the cheap sapphire 5970s seem to be bad OCers
1302 2011-01-26 12:46:43 <ArtForz> well, not really bad, just a lot more variance
1303 2011-01-26 12:46:55 <molecular> arforz: sound nice. I started running into trouble beyond 800Mhz @87-90°C
1304 2011-01-26 12:47:03 <ArtForz> errr... yes
1305 2011-01-26 12:47:11 <ArtForz> I try to keep GPU temp < 80°C
1306 2011-01-26 12:47:13 <lfm> or power supply running outa juice
1307 2011-01-26 12:47:14 <molecular> artforz: that's what I have ;(
1308 2011-01-26 12:47:35 <ArtForz> most older 5970s usually had no problem getting 830+MHz on both cores
1309 2011-01-26 12:47:49 <molecular> I'll have to check cores independently at some point
1310 2011-01-26 12:47:59 <molecular> had to get temp under control first, though
1311 2011-01-26 12:48:01 <ArtForz> one of my sapphires is maxing at 790/870
1312 2011-01-26 12:48:11 <molecular> interesting
1313 2011-01-26 12:48:39 <sipa> ArtForz: you mean 790 for one core and 870 for the other?
1314 2011-01-26 12:48:42 <ArtForz> yep
1315 2011-01-26 12:48:43 prax has joined
1316 2011-01-26 12:49:01 <sipa> quite a difference
1317 2011-01-26 12:49:02 <ArtForz> with the faster core running ~5°C hotter at same clocks
1318 2011-01-26 12:49:11 <Keefe> and i have one at 800/865
1319 2011-01-26 12:49:33 <ArtForz> my older cards seem better matched speed and temp-wise
1320 2011-01-26 12:49:39 <molecular> aticonfig is reporting different temp than adl_sdk
1321 2011-01-26 12:49:46 <Diablo-D3> slush1: thats clearly a driver bug
1322 2011-01-26 12:49:48 <Keefe> with the slower one 4 C hotter
1323 2011-01-26 12:49:49 <Diablo-D3> slush1: I cant fix that.
1324 2011-01-26 12:49:52 <Diablo-D3> it seems to be related to 10.12
1325 2011-01-26 12:50:04 <lfm> ever heard of 5870 x2?
1326 2011-01-26 12:50:09 <ArtForz> yep
1327 2011-01-26 12:50:19 <Diablo-D3> lfm: those are stock full mhz 5970s
1328 2011-01-26 12:50:31 <Diablo-D3> as in, the 5870s are at 5870 speeds
1329 2011-01-26 12:50:33 <Diablo-D3> instead of underclocked
1330 2011-01-26 12:50:36 <Diablo-D3> its a marketing gimmic
1331 2011-01-26 12:50:48 <ArtForz> my guess, the sapphire 5970s were made from remaining cypresses after 58xx got phased out
1332 2011-01-26 12:51:51 <ArtForz> which makes sense
1333 2011-01-26 12:51:58 <slush1> Diablo-D3: what's the preferred driver version?
1334 2011-01-26 12:52:02 <ArtForz> 5970 had tiny volume compared to 58xx
1335 2011-01-26 12:52:46 <ArtForz> = chips that would still make 5970 spec but ran a bit slow/hot/... went to 5850 or 5830 instead
1336 2011-01-26 12:52:58 <slush1> Diablo-D3: It's pretty interesting, that one box with two cards is working stable. This second box is using the same hardware (MB+CPU) and HDD is the exact clone of first box
1337 2011-01-26 12:53:00 <Diablo-D3> slush1: well, Im using 10.12, and Ive only seen it once
1338 2011-01-26 12:53:08 <slush1> Diablo-D3: So only one difference is in card manufacturer
1339 2011-01-26 12:54:01 <ArtForz> obviously if you just use all chips that make 5970 spec, you get a lot more variance
1340 2011-01-26 12:55:41 <slush1> Diablo-D3: I'm using also 10.12
1341 2011-01-26 12:56:52 <Diablo-D3> try 10.11 and see if it goes away
1342 2011-01-26 13:00:02 <slush1> ok
1343 2011-01-26 13:01:09 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
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1347 2011-01-26 13:01:59 altamic has joined
1348 2011-01-26 13:08:47 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1349 2011-01-26 13:11:51 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1351 2011-01-26 13:24:49 <slush1> One of my core is quite hot on 735MHz - 82.5 oC. Is good idea to remove cooler and add thermal paste?
1352 2011-01-26 13:24:53 satamusic_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1353 2011-01-26 13:26:07 <slush1> It's not a new card, I suspect that there was water cooling before, so maybe cooler is badly mounted
1354 2011-01-26 13:27:53 <xelister> ;;calc 165000
1355 2011-01-26 13:27:54 <gribble> ...
1356 2011-01-26 13:27:57 <xelister> ;; calc 165000
1357 2011-01-26 13:27:57 <gribble> ...
1358 2011-01-26 13:29:19 altamic has joined
1359 2011-01-26 13:29:28 <Diablo-D3> slush1: ADD?
1360 2011-01-26 13:29:29 <Diablo-D3> dude no
1361 2011-01-26 13:30:41 <Diablo-D3> you use something like arctic silver's two part cleaner
1362 2011-01-26 13:32:37 <slush1> Diablo-D3: well, remove old and add new one
1363 2011-01-26 13:32:45 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but you have to remove it correctly
1364 2011-01-26 13:32:50 <Diablo-D3> and it also depends what it used
1365 2011-01-26 13:33:04 <Diablo-D3> the heatsink on my 4850 was a sheet of thermal pad
1366 2011-01-26 13:33:18 <Diablo-D3> with thermal goop on the gpu onky
1367 2011-01-26 13:33:28 <Diablo-D3> so if I ever plan on remounting that, I'll have to redo all the thermal pad work too
1368 2011-01-26 13:34:32 <slush1> hmm
1369 2011-01-26 13:34:57 <slush1> Core can go >860 oC, but temperature is insane
1370 2011-01-26 13:35:36 <slush1> 860 MHz :_D
1371 2011-01-26 13:35:42 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,calc 165000
1372 2011-01-26 13:35:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 165000 Khps, given current difficulty of 18437.64439217 , is 5 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 53 seconds
1373 2011-01-26 13:36:05 <slush1> not oC. So I don't know if is better to let it be on basic frequency or try to fix cooling (with the risk that it will be even worse)
1374 2011-01-26 13:40:15 <Diablo-D3> heh
1375 2011-01-26 13:45:52 sabalaba has joined
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1377 2011-01-26 13:54:33 <tcatm> slush1: are talking about a 5970?
1378 2011-01-26 13:55:41 <slush1> yes
1379 2011-01-26 13:56:53 <tcatm> Is the air intake blocked in some way?
1380 2011-01-26 13:57:40 <tcatm> What does DISPLAY=:0.0 aticonfig --pplib-cmd 'get fanspeed 0' output?
1381 2011-01-26 13:58:33 <slush1> tcatm: fan is on 90%, second core is on 72 oC
1382 2011-01-26 13:58:49 <slush1> (I set up fan to 90% by self, it's not an auto)
1383 2011-01-26 13:58:50 <tcatm> RMA the card
1384 2011-01-26 14:00:13 <UukGoblin> huh
1385 2011-01-26 14:00:18 <UukGoblin> nice command
1386 2011-01-26 14:00:28 <cosurgi> slush1: did you reduce the problem to just a single card?
1387 2011-01-26 14:00:34 <UukGoblin> but reports 29% on my card where fan is totally disconnected from the card :-]
1388 2011-01-26 14:00:58 <slush1> cosurgi: ?
1389 2011-01-26 14:01:21 <slush1> tcatm: RMA is not possible, it's from second hand
1390 2011-01-26 14:01:31 <slush1> tcatm: I'll consider this card as 5870 :)
1391 2011-01-26 14:01:47 <tcatm> slush1: ebay?
1392 2011-01-26 14:01:53 <slush1> tcatm: something similar
1393 2011-01-26 14:02:06 <tcatm> maybe it was sold because of that defect
1394 2011-01-26 14:02:13 <slush1> probably
1395 2011-01-26 14:02:25 <slush1> I wrote email to seller, so I'll see
1396 2011-01-26 14:02:45 <slush1> card is working on default clocks, so I don't think he will accept it back
1397 2011-01-26 14:03:18 <tcatm> well, re-applying thermal paste *should* fix it but it's a little bit more complicated to do than on a CPU (two cores, bridge, memory and VRM)
1398 2011-01-26 14:04:08 <slush1> any nice howto on the web?
1399 2011-01-26 14:04:30 <slush1> Cores can go pretty high, so I'll probably try it somedays
1400 2011-01-26 14:04:42 <tcatm> no idea. Do you know how to apply thermal paste in very tiny amounts?
1401 2011-01-26 14:05:18 <slush1> If it is similar as with cleaning my teeth, then yes
1402 2011-01-26 14:10:09 pozic has quit (Quit: leaving)
1403 2011-01-26 14:11:38 <tcatm> http://www.overclockers.com/applying-thermal-grease/ depending on size of DIE use either 3 or 4
1404 2011-01-26 14:12:59 annodomini has joined
1405 2011-01-26 14:13:41 <slush1> nice. On CPUs I always used something like 3
1406 2011-01-26 14:14:26 <tcatm> http://images.bit-tech.net/content_images/2010/05/sapphire/hd5970-2b.jpg
1407 2011-01-26 14:15:18 <tcatm> looks like memory and VRMs use thermal pads
1408 2011-01-26 14:17:50 <tcatm> For removal of thermal grease I'd use IPA. You should also clean the memory/VRM or cooler (depending on where the thermal pads stick when you remove the cooler)
1409 2011-01-26 14:18:26 <slush1> IPA?
1410 2011-01-26 14:18:37 <tcatm> isopropyl alcohol
1411 2011-01-26 14:19:31 kermit has joined
1412 2011-01-26 14:20:17 Pegasus-Rider has quit (Quit: Re-joining)
1413 2011-01-26 14:20:55 <slush1> thanks
1414 2011-01-26 14:21:56 annodomini has quit (Quit: annodomini)
1415 2011-01-26 14:39:08 larsivi has joined
1416 2011-01-26 14:47:51 dwdollar1 has joined
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1420 2011-01-26 15:15:01 <Zarutian> fabianhjr: a bit late response: yes, I have been watching it
1421 2011-01-26 15:26:46 <slush1> tcatm: oh, so the card is still in warranty. I'll try to apply it
1422 2011-01-26 15:27:41 <Diablo-D3> tcatm: no
1423 2011-01-26 15:27:48 <Diablo-D3> dont use isopropyl
1424 2011-01-26 15:28:00 <Diablo-D3> use arctic silver's cleaner
1425 2011-01-26 15:28:06 <Diablo-D3> much better than isopropyl
1426 2011-01-26 15:28:38 devon_hillard has joined
1427 2011-01-26 15:28:44 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
1428 2011-01-26 15:28:44 devon_hillard has joined
1429 2011-01-26 15:29:17 <tcatm> IPA works well enough, but yep, I have better stuff for cleaning things in my lab
1430 2011-01-26 15:30:48 <Diablo-D3> arctic silver's shit == best
1431 2011-01-26 15:30:54 <Diablo-D3> havent found anything better
1432 2011-01-26 15:31:01 <Diablo-D3> smells like fucking oranges though
1433 2011-01-26 15:31:22 <Diablo-D3> well, a sick approximation of such
1434 2011-01-26 15:32:14 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1435 2011-01-26 15:32:58 <Diablo-D3> Im going to bed
1436 2011-01-26 15:32:59 <Diablo-D3> night all
1437 2011-01-26 15:33:24 Atlas__ has joined
1438 2011-01-26 15:37:22 Atlas__ has quit (Client Quit)
1439 2011-01-26 15:38:56 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1440 2011-01-26 15:56:05 sabalaba has joined
1441 2011-01-26 16:05:02 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 761119
1442 2011-01-26 16:05:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 761119 Khps, given current difficulty of 18437.64439217 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 54 minutes, and 2 seconds
1443 2011-01-26 16:11:45 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1444 2011-01-26 16:14:25 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1445 2011-01-26 16:28:40 <luke-jr> gribble: help
1446 2011-01-26 16:28:44 <luke-jr> ;;help
1447 2011-01-26 16:28:45 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1448 2011-01-26 16:29:24 <luke-jr> !later
1449 2011-01-26 16:29:36 <luke-jr> gribble: later tell gavinandreson git://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
1450 2011-01-26 16:29:42 <luke-jr> -.-
1451 2011-01-26 16:30:53 kermit has joined
1452 2011-01-26 16:31:10 <luke-jr> there we go (in PM) ☺
1453 2011-01-26 16:31:21 brunner has joined
1454 2011-01-26 16:31:30 <luke-jr> !later tell nanotube cool bot :P
1455 2011-01-26 16:31:35 * luke-jr peers
1456 2011-01-26 16:31:39 <luke-jr> gribble: later tell nanotube cool bot :P
1457 2011-01-26 16:31:46 <luke-jr> weird, wonder why it only works in PM
1458 2011-01-26 16:32:23 <prax> I still don't get the whole mining thing... a block = 50 BTC?
1459 2011-01-26 16:33:45 Zarutian has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1460 2011-01-26 16:36:57 <sipa> prax: yes
1461 2011-01-26 16:39:32 <prax> I need new video cards anyway, but don't think I want to spend $1,200 on them.. are there specifics cards that are better for some reason?
1462 2011-01-26 16:39:55 <prax> like what am I looking for GPU clock?
1463 2011-01-26 16:40:11 <luke-jr> prax: currently.
1464 2011-01-26 16:40:22 <luke-jr> prax: clock isn't relevant
1465 2011-01-26 16:40:28 <ArtForz> for mining? anything ATI 5xxx or 6xxx blows nvidia out of the water on perf/$/ and perf/W
1466 2011-01-26 16:40:29 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
1467 2011-01-26 16:40:52 <luke-jr> Radeon HD 5970 is super-fast, but costs $600 :x
1468 2011-01-26 16:41:00 <luke-jr> I just bought a used 5850
1469 2011-01-26 16:41:10 <luke-jr> which does a little under half of what 5970 can do
1470 2011-01-26 16:41:12 <ArtForz> 6xxx got a price slash in the last few days
1471 2011-01-26 16:41:26 <ArtForz> yesterday I think
1472 2011-01-26 16:41:37 <prax> I'm probably going to wait a couple months, so not really shopping a model
1473 2011-01-26 16:41:50 <ArtForz> nicely coinciding with gtx560 release :P
1474 2011-01-26 16:41:53 <prax> so if not GPU what then? memory speed?
1475 2011-01-26 16:42:11 <ArtForz> for mining it's really just #shader ALUs * shader clock
1476 2011-01-26 16:42:27 <luke-jr> prax: it's like shopping for CPUs. there's nothing to go on really other than reviews and benchmarks.
1477 2011-01-26 16:42:42 <ArtForz> and personal preference ;)
1478 2011-01-26 16:43:41 <ArtForz> note that nvidias latest-and-greatest GTX580 is about as fast as a 5750 (a ~$100 card...)
1479 2011-01-26 16:44:54 <prax> K I noted #shader ALUs * shader clock though I'm not up with the jargon TY
1480 2011-01-26 16:45:08 <prax> I'll evaluate more when it is time to buy
1481 2011-01-26 16:45:12 <ArtForz> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
1482 2011-01-26 16:45:26 <prax> yeah I saw that.. SP = ?
1483 2011-01-26 16:45:42 <ArtForz> Shader Processors = ALUs
1484 2011-01-26 16:45:47 <prax> ah ok
1485 2011-01-26 16:46:16 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1486 2011-01-26 16:46:16 <ArtForz> table already has Mhash/W
1487 2011-01-26 16:46:26 <ArtForz> note Mhash numbers, check prices on newegg, calculate Mhash/$
1488 2011-01-26 16:46:48 <ArtForz> ati beats nvidia on both fronts by about a factor of 5
1489 2011-01-26 16:47:12 <prax> that's quite a difference
1490 2011-01-26 16:47:27 <ArtForz> yup
1491 2011-01-26 16:47:49 <prax> I have seriously outdated equipment lol
1492 2011-01-26 16:47:58 <prax> get like 2K khash
1493 2011-01-26 16:49:16 <luke-jr> ArtForz: hey, that isn't fair!
1494 2011-01-26 16:49:27 <luke-jr> the wiki says nVidia's GTX580 is *half* of my 5850 :P
1495 2011-01-26 16:49:52 <luke-jr> prax: I just upgraded my PC
1496 2011-01-26 16:50:06 <luke-jr> prax: Sandy Bridge i5-2400's CPU gets about 4.5 MH/s
1497 2011-01-26 16:50:18 <luke-jr> there's no miner that supports SB's GPU yet
1498 2011-01-26 16:50:36 <luke-jr> my new Radeon 5850 in the mail can do 240 MH/s supposedly
1499 2011-01-26 16:50:40 <ArtForz> a GTX580 is like $500, a 5850 is what? $200?
1500 2011-01-26 16:51:02 <luke-jr> I got the 5850 on Ebay for $163 shipped
1501 2011-01-26 16:51:27 <ArtForz> not much sense trying a miner on SBs IGP
1502 2011-01-26 16:52:10 <ArtForz> SBs IGP should be about half as fast as a 4350
1503 2011-01-26 16:52:13 <nanotube> luke-jr: use ;;, not !
1504 2011-01-26 16:52:15 <ArtForz> = about 3.5Mh/s
1505 2011-01-26 16:52:22 <nanotube> cuz the help is wrong. :)
1506 2011-01-26 16:52:43 <luke-jr> ;;later
1507 2011-01-26 16:52:44 <gribble> Error: "later" is not a valid command.
1508 2011-01-26 16:52:57 <luke-jr> ArtForz: SB's GPU is faster than my old Radeon for 3D at least
1509 2011-01-26 16:53:19 <luke-jr> ;;later tell
1510 2011-01-26 16:53:19 <gribble> (later tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells <nick> <text> the next time <nick> is in seen. <nick> can contain wildcard characters, and the first matching nick will be given the note.
1511 2011-01-26 16:53:22 <ArtForz> old radeon what?
1512 2011-01-26 16:53:26 <luke-jr> ArtForz: X850
1513 2011-01-26 16:54:04 <ArtForz> thats like 6 years old
1514 2011-01-26 16:54:08 <luke-jr> 7
1515 2011-01-26 16:54:16 <ArtForz> it's probably also faster than my voodoo3
1516 2011-01-26 16:54:16 <luke-jr> just like my old CPU
1517 2011-01-26 16:54:18 <luke-jr> :p
1518 2011-01-26 16:54:30 <luke-jr> Voodoo3 is like 12 years old :p
1519 2011-01-26 16:55:26 <ArtForz> whoops
1520 2011-01-26 16:55:51 <ArtForz> SB has 12 shader pipes @ up to 1.3GHz
1521 2011-01-26 16:56:27 <luke-jr> … that sounds crap
1522 2011-01-26 16:56:32 <ArtForz> so about 15.6 Gop/s
1523 2011-01-26 16:56:52 <ArtForz> a 4350 does 46 Gop/s
1524 2011-01-26 16:58:19 <luke-jr> so about 2 MH/s :O
1525 2011-01-26 16:58:28 <luke-jr> oh well, 6.5 > 4.5 :P
1526 2011-01-26 16:58:47 <ArtForz> yup
1527 2011-01-26 16:59:04 <ArtForz> quick calc says 2.3Mh/s
1528 2011-01-26 16:59:56 <ArtForz> = CPU part is probably faster by a factor of 5 or so...
1529 2011-01-26 17:00:07 <tcatm> ;;bc,calcd 350000 187
1530 2011-01-26 17:00:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 350000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 187, is 38 minutes and 14 seconds
1531 2011-01-26 17:00:32 <ArtForz> testnet?
1532 2011-01-26 17:00:38 <tcatm> yep
1533 2011-01-26 17:01:04 <ArtForz> yeah, you pretty much need a 5970 to get decent time/block on testnet now
1534 2011-01-26 17:01:48 <tcatm> need to test m0's miner somewhere with  1 < diff < ~50
1535 2011-01-26 17:01:57 <Teppy1> How long does a single 5970 average on the main network now?
1536 2011-01-26 17:02:10 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 600000
1537 2011-01-26 17:02:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 18437.64439217 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 39 minutes, and 41 seconds
1538 2011-01-26 17:02:52 <ArtForz> tcatm: how bout testnet starting from genesis ?
1539 2011-01-26 17:02:56 <tcatm> could you take a look at https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm/blob/master/BitcoinMiner.cl and check if G is calculated correctly? (last few lines)
1540 2011-01-26 17:03:40 <tcatm> well, the problem seems to be G, H works on pool diff=1
1541 2011-01-26 17:03:55 <ArtForz> thats because my kernel doesn't properly calculate G
1542 2011-01-26 17:04:02 <luke-jr> ArtForz: so how bad was X850?
1543 2011-01-26 17:04:10 <ArtForz> nm
1544 2011-01-26 17:04:12 <tcatm> I added two lines to calculate G
1545 2011-01-26 17:04:34 <ArtForz> yeah, I see it...
1546 2011-01-26 17:05:40 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure it's still missing something
1547 2011-01-26 17:06:43 <sipa> clock speed is relevant, but  not the only factor
1548 2011-01-26 17:07:29 <ArtForz> line 285
1549 2011-01-26 17:08:05 <ArtForz> missing a G = G + (rotr(H, 2) ^ rotr(H, 13) ^ rotr(H, 22)) + ((H & A) | (B & (H | A))); at the end
1550 2011-01-26 17:08:10 <m0mchil> oh :(
1551 2011-01-26 17:08:23 <sipa> ow, that was an answer for something half an hour ago
1552 2011-01-26 17:08:48 <sipa> is that calculation of g really necessary?
1553 2011-01-26 17:08:51 <ArtForz> no
1554 2011-01-26 17:08:59 <ArtForz> I don't get why you're calculating G in tghe kernel in the firsdt place
1555 2011-01-26 17:09:05 <sipa> idem
1556 2011-01-26 17:09:09 <ArtForz> it's an extra ~half round in the innder loops
1557 2011-01-26 17:09:22 <sipa> if you need it, do it in python
1558 2011-01-26 17:09:33 <sipa> afterwards
1559 2011-01-26 17:09:42 <ArtForz> yup
1560 2011-01-26 17:10:19 <ArtForz> normally only 1 in 2**32 hashes passes the H check anyways, unless you're running at <1 diff on testnet
1561 2011-01-26 17:11:33 <ArtForz> doing the full 128-round hash on CPU once every 2**32 hashes avg is a lot faster than doing half a round extra for each of the 2**32 hashes
1562 2011-01-26 17:12:04 <molecular> fiddling with the ram-clock wont do anything, right?
1563 2011-01-26 17:12:18 <ArtForz> not for mining
1564 2011-01-26 17:12:28 <molecular> thought so
1565 2011-01-26 17:18:32 <Kiba> so
1566 2011-01-26 17:18:35 <Kiba> folks
1567 2011-01-26 17:18:43 <Kiba> where do gpg keep my private key?
1568 2011-01-26 17:21:19 <nanotube> ~/.gnupg
1569 2011-01-26 17:21:25 <nanotube> assuming you're on *nix
1570 2011-01-26 17:22:38 <Kiba> yes
1571 2011-01-26 17:22:44 <Kiba> but which file contain my private key?
1572 2011-01-26 17:22:54 <Kiba> gpg.conf  pubring.gpg  pubring.gpg~  random_seed  secring.gpg  trustdb.gpg
1573 2011-01-26 17:23:04 <nanotube> secring
1574 2011-01-26 17:23:08 <nanotube> (secure ring)
1575 2011-01-26 17:23:52 <nanotube> Kiba: man gpg for details of the files.
1576 2011-01-26 17:24:10 <Kiba> ok, so I copy that into my usb drive
1577 2011-01-26 17:24:22 <nanotube> it doesn't hurt to copy the whole dir.
1578 2011-01-26 17:24:26 * Kiba is trying to learn how to use gpg
1579 2011-01-26 17:24:33 <nanotube> if you're looking to backup
1580 2011-01-26 17:24:40 <Kiba> is all the other files improtant?
1581 2011-01-26 17:26:25 <tcatm> btw, can pubring be re-created from secring (except for other person's keys)?
1582 2011-01-26 17:28:15 <x6763> ArtForz or anyone else knowledgeable in transaction scripts: i've got OP_CHECKSIG mostly implemented, but i'm doing something wrong somewhere as the signature isn't verifying. i think something is wrong in the simplified transaction I'm building before it gets hashed. details are here: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2957.0  any help would be greatly appreciated!
1583 2011-01-26 17:29:48 <nanotube> tcatm: mm not sure... but if you have uploaded the key to some keyservers, you can just pull them back from there.
1584 2011-01-26 17:35:56 <Kiba> so copy the pubring.gpg too?
1585 2011-01-26 17:36:56 * Kiba is paranoid about his wallet
1586 2011-01-26 17:37:40 <sipa> you shouldnt mess with secring and pubring
1587 2011-01-26 17:38:02 <sipa> just export the key to a file, and backup that
1588 2011-01-26 17:38:45 <Kiba> serect key
1589 2011-01-26 17:38:48 <Kiba> or public key?
1590 2011-01-26 17:43:02 m0mchil has quit ()
1591 2011-01-26 17:45:07 <nanotube> sipa: copying the directory as a backup is not 'messing'.
1592 2011-01-26 17:45:31 <nanotube> there's no need to export unless you want it in ascii for purposes of printing out, etc.
1593 2011-01-26 17:45:55 <nanotube> or unless you want to transfer just a subset of keys somewhere
1594 2011-01-26 17:46:48 <tcatm> Kiba: gpg -ao secring.asc --export-secret-keys; gpg -ao pubring.asc --export
1595 2011-01-26 17:47:23 <Kiba> I gottach go
1596 2011-01-26 17:47:41 sabalaba has joined
1597 2011-01-26 17:47:59 * Kiba saved the command for later
1598 2011-01-26 17:48:01 <Kiba> anyway
1599 2011-01-26 17:48:04 <Kiba> it was nice learning
1600 2011-01-26 17:48:29 <tcatm> I wish QR codes could store 16 kByte of ascii
1601 2011-01-26 17:49:18 <Kiba> for some reason, I am having a hard time mounting my usb drive...
1602 2011-01-26 17:50:36 <Kiba> if we supposely have the right to privacy
1603 2011-01-26 17:50:45 <Kiba> doesn't that mean fiancial matters?
1604 2011-01-26 17:52:03 <Kiba> bai bye
1605 2011-01-26 17:52:17 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1612 2011-01-26 18:25:56 <lfm> ''bc,calcd 300000 1
1613 2011-01-26 18:26:08 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 300000 1
1614 2011-01-26 18:26:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 14 seconds
1615 2011-01-26 18:26:41 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|;;bc,calcd 300000 174
1616 2011-01-26 18:26:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 174, is 41 minutes and 31 seconds
1617 2011-01-26 18:27:20 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 300000 23000
1618 2011-01-26 18:27:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 23000, is 3 days, 19 hours, 28 minutes, and 0 seconds
1619 2011-01-26 18:32:03 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 300000 5750
1620 2011-01-26 18:32:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 5750, is 22 hours, 52 minutes, and 0 seconds
1621 2011-01-26 18:32:39 m0mchil has joined
1622 2011-01-26 18:32:57 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 300000 1437.50
1623 2011-01-26 18:32:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1437.50, is 5 hours, 43 minutes, and 0 seconds
1624 2011-01-26 18:37:00 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1631 2011-01-26 19:04:32 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1634 2011-01-26 19:07:24 <jwalck> ;;bc,stats
1635 2011-01-26 19:07:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 104736 | Current Difficulty: 18437.64439217 | Next Difficulty At Block: 104831 | Next Difficulty In: 95 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 13 hours, 8 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 21985.78830708
1636 2011-01-26 19:13:44 prax has joined
1637 2011-01-26 19:16:08 devon_hillard has joined
1638 2011-01-26 19:16:10 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 761119
1639 2011-01-26 19:16:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 761119 Khps, given current difficulty of 18437.64439217 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 54 minutes, and 2 seconds
1640 2011-01-26 19:16:17 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calc 761119 18437.64439217
1641 2011-01-26 19:16:18 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1642 2011-01-26 19:16:25 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calcd 761119 18437.64439217
1643 2011-01-26 19:16:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 761119 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 18437.64439217, is 1 day, 4 hours, 54 minutes, and 2 seconds
1644 2011-01-26 19:16:34 <cosurgi> ;;bc,calcd 761119 21985.78830708
1645 2011-01-26 19:16:34 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 761119 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 21985.78830708, is 1 day, 10 hours, 27 minutes, and 45 seconds
1646 2011-01-26 19:35:51 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1647 2011-01-26 19:45:58 <x6763> does anyone know why blockexplorer.com and blk.bitcoinwatch.com have the hashes in the opposite byte-order from what's actually in the network packets, blkindex.dat, blk0001.dat, etc?
1648 2011-01-26 19:49:03 <altamic> hey x6763
1649 2011-01-26 19:49:12 <x6763> altamic: hi
1650 2011-01-26 19:49:12 <altamic> thank you for your reply
1651 2011-01-26 19:49:16 <altamic> on the forum
1652 2011-01-26 19:49:34 <ArtForz> yes
1653 2011-01-26 19:49:37 <altamic> AFAIK they are little endian
1654 2011-01-26 19:49:45 <ArtForz> exactly
1655 2011-01-26 19:50:12 <ArtForz> bitcoin interprets hashes as 256 bit LE ints
1656 2011-01-26 19:50:19 <altamic> that's correct
1657 2011-01-26 19:50:28 <ArtForz> yet common notation treats sha256 hashes as just a sequence of bytes
1658 2011-01-26 19:50:30 prax has quit ()
1659 2011-01-26 19:51:07 <ArtForz> so byte order and word order are reversed between bitcoin and what the rest of the universe uses as standard representation of a sha256
1660 2011-01-26 19:51:18 <altamic> yup
1661 2011-01-26 19:51:27 <lfm> x6763 sometimes they are treated as an array of bytes in one order and sometimes they are treated as a 256 bit number in little endian binary byte order
1662 2011-01-26 19:52:00 CIA-98 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1663 2011-01-26 19:52:08 BitCoinz has joined
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1665 2011-01-26 19:52:08 BitCoinz has joined
1666 2011-01-26 19:52:33 <ArtForz> iirc bitcoin also prints hashes in hex the "wrong way around"
1667 2011-01-26 19:52:50 ducki2p has joined
1668 2011-01-26 19:53:25 <lfm> it is a side effect of the little endian / big endian wars that have been ongoing since the dawn of the computer age
1669 2011-01-26 19:53:26 <x6763> when are the hashes used as numbers?
1670 2011-01-26 19:53:35 akem has joined
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1672 2011-01-26 19:53:44 akem has joined
1673 2011-01-26 19:53:50 <ArtForz> hash<=target check for block hashes for example
1674 2011-01-26 19:53:55 <lfm> they are treated as numbers when you compare a hash to a target difficulty
1675 2011-01-26 19:53:58 <dirtyfilthy> ehhhhh
1676 2011-01-26 19:54:05 * dirtyfilthy goes to rewrite code
1677 2011-01-26 19:54:06 <dirtyfilthy> heh
1678 2011-01-26 19:54:12 <x6763> ok, are the transaction hashes used as numbers at all?
1679 2011-01-26 19:54:28 <ArtForz> nope, but they still get interpreted as numbers iirc
1680 2011-01-26 19:54:28 <lfm> dont think so
1681 2011-01-26 19:55:00 <lfm> prolly just someone using the same routine to display all hashes
1682 2011-01-26 19:55:04 <ArtForz> yep
1683 2011-01-26 19:55:08 <x6763> alright
1684 2011-01-26 19:56:01 <x6763> posting hexdumps on the forums and then referring to hashes in the opposite order as shown on websites apparently causes some confusion for some people, lol
1685 2011-01-26 19:56:07 BitCoinz has quit (Client Quit)
1686 2011-01-26 19:56:24 <ArtForz> its not that confusing
1687 2011-01-26 19:56:48 <ArtForz> bitcoin hex hash notation has byte order exactly reversed to in-memory layout
1688 2011-01-26 19:56:54 <lfm> its not that confusin g if you have years of experience dealing with endianness
1689 2011-01-26 19:57:08 <ArtForz> at least it's not middle-endian
1690 2011-01-26 19:57:11 <x6763> i didn't think it was confusing, either, but Hal didn't catch it in my post
1691 2011-01-26 19:57:23 <altamic> I've started my implementation using array of bytes, avoiding the issue
1692 2011-01-26 19:57:38 <x6763> altamic: yeah, i'm just using byte arrays
1693 2011-01-26 19:57:49 <lfm> altamic: good luck with that
1694 2011-01-26 19:57:55 <ArtForz> I convert to bignum ASAP
1695 2011-01-26 19:58:13 <altamic> lfm: already done it works
1696 2011-01-26 19:58:14 <x6763> the hashing and signing functions take byte arrays...i'll convert them to bigints when needed
1697 2011-01-26 19:59:11 tg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1698 2011-01-26 20:00:08 tg has joined
1699 2011-01-26 20:01:18 altamic_ has joined
1700 2011-01-26 20:02:26 tg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1701 2011-01-26 20:02:43 <x6763> ArtForz and dirthfilthy: will you guys please check out my forum post to see if you can point out what the problem is with my simplified/temporary transaction copy that i'm using for signature verification? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2957.0
1702 2011-01-26 20:02:52 tg has joined
1703 2011-01-26 20:02:58 <x6763> ^^ dirtyfilthy
1704 2011-01-26 20:03:05 <dirtyfilthy> my shit doesn't work either but i'll have a look
1705 2011-01-26 20:03:18 <x6763> dirtyfilthy: oh, that sucks, lol
1706 2011-01-26 20:04:04 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1707 2011-01-26 20:04:04 altamic_ is now known as altamic
1708 2011-01-26 20:04:15 <x6763> cdecker is also doing a java implementation...i wonder if he's using the same signature verification code or not...
1709 2011-01-26 20:05:02 RazielZ has quit ()
1710 2011-01-26 20:05:43 <x6763> ;;seen cdecker
1711 2011-01-26 20:05:43 <gribble> cdecker was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 2 days, 3 hours, 21 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <cdecker> Oh god that massive 20'000 BTC for 0.51$ will really stagnate the market for quite a long time should we ever get that high
1712 2011-01-26 20:06:36 sabalaba has joined
1713 2011-01-26 20:07:30 <jgarzik> what I miss for bitcoin, as a developer:  a wiki or web page somewhere, showing various bitcoin libraries and snippets of code, grouped by programming language.
1714 2011-01-26 20:10:42 <ducki2p> jgarzik: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29
1715 2011-01-26 20:12:09 <jgarzik> ducki2p: yeah, that's just JSON-RPC.  there are mountains of code on the forums for, e.g. validating bitcoin addresses or [de]serializing blocks, just floating out there.  Someone just posted a Java snippet to assist with OP_CHECKSIG script
1716 2011-01-26 20:13:21 * ducki2p empowers jgarzik :)
1717 2011-01-26 20:14:24 <jgarzik> ditto for payment engines.  mike g(?) on the forums wrote payment gateways for several frameworks.  that should be easily accessible for newcomers wishing to deploy bitcoin.
1718 2011-01-26 20:14:55 <ducki2p> yeah nostate mike does a good job with those
1719 2011-01-26 20:16:06 <ducki2p> jgarzik: stackoverflow could be used for that, which might have some PR benefits too
1720 2011-01-26 20:16:10 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1721 2011-01-26 20:16:43 <ducki2p> zero posts tagged with 'bitcoin' there atm
1722 2011-01-26 20:20:29 gavinandresen has joined
1723 2011-01-26 20:23:12 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1724 2011-01-26 20:26:21 CIA-98 has joined
1725 2011-01-26 20:32:51 <necrodearia> For a website offering a service involving sending and receiving bitcoins periodically, what is a best method to provide a bitcoind process for handling the funds?  I imagine webserver and bitcoin daemon on the same server is not a good idea.
1726 2011-01-26 20:37:56 <jgarzik> ducki2p: I think people searching for bitcoin programming help are more likely to search bitcoin.org to en.bitcoin.it
1727 2011-01-26 20:38:53 <jgarzik> necrodearia: <shrug>  there is nothing fundamentally wrong about webserver and bitcoind on same server.  it is all a matter of your security envelope.  certainly, separate servers for -everything- makes life more difficult for hackers, just like it makes life more difficult for sysadmins.  :)
1728 2011-01-26 20:39:16 <jgarzik> there are plenty of same-server security solutions that are useful, like selinux MAC
1729 2011-01-26 20:39:24 sabalaba has joined
1730 2011-01-26 20:39:41 <necrodearia> mm, has there been any work on selinux for bitcoin?
1731 2011-01-26 20:40:08 <jgarzik> and "same server" itself has many definitions.  are two separate VPS's on the same hardware the "same server"?  Both might be compromised by the same root hole.
1732 2011-01-26 20:41:27 <ne0futur> i dont know for selinux for but it wonmt work on a full grsec / pie / ssp
1733 2011-01-26 20:41:55 <ne0futur> well a binary work but a locally built boitcoind will crash
1734 2011-01-26 20:43:13 <andrew12> I think I'm going to try to make a bitcoin library in ruby, with events and oo and stuff
1735 2011-01-26 20:43:29 <andrew12> that will function as a node.
1736 2011-01-26 20:44:29 <gavinandresen> andrew12: excellent, diversity is good.
1737 2011-01-26 20:45:06 <andrew12> ^_^
1738 2011-01-26 20:48:20 <dirtyfilthy> yeah bitcoin certainly suffers from a lack of a second public implementation
1739 2011-01-26 20:52:02 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
1740 2011-01-26 20:52:19 <andrew12> dirtyfilthy: well there's qbitcoin, but that isn't released yet
1741 2011-01-26 20:53:24 slush has joined
1742 2011-01-26 20:54:33 <andrew12> hi slush
1743 2011-01-26 20:54:46 <slush> hi
1744 2011-01-26 20:55:34 <sipa> wow
1745 2011-01-26 20:55:39 <sipa> pool speed to 26GH/s
1746 2011-01-26 20:55:52 <dirtyfilthy> yeah, and a bunch of people have their own unpublished clients
1747 2011-01-26 20:56:00 <necrodearia> Woo, Bitcoin mentioned @ http://neworder.box.sk/
1748 2011-01-26 20:56:08 <nanotube> jgarzik: so... make a bunch of pages on the bitcoin wiki, put them all into category:code .. and you will have what you want. :)
1749 2011-01-26 20:57:22 <sipa> slush: how does that feel, controlling 15% of the bitcoin network computing power? ;)
1750 2011-01-26 20:59:06 <slush> sipa: one guy connected his 10x 5970 rig to pool today. That's the reason for big jump.
1751 2011-01-26 20:59:40 <lfm> strange person
1752 2011-01-26 20:59:46 altamic has joined
1753 2011-01-26 20:59:46 altamic has quit (Changing host)
1754 2011-01-26 20:59:46 altamic has joined
1755 2011-01-26 20:59:54 <nanotube> ;;bc,poolstats
1756 2011-01-26 20:59:55 <gribble> {"round_probability": 6.0099999999999998, "hashes_ps": 26949739382, "shares": 1142, "active_workers": 361, "round_duration": "0:03:02", "round_started": "2011-01-26 20:51:45", "getwork_ps": 116}
1757 2011-01-26 21:00:06 <nanotube> mm nice
1758 2011-01-26 21:00:34 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 26949739
1759 2011-01-26 21:00:35 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 26949739 Khps, given current difficulty of 18437.64439217 , is 48 minutes and 58 seconds
1760 2011-01-26 21:01:33 <slush> I also connected two retarded 5970 to pool today. One is at 90 oC at basic clock and second is freezing every hour. I'm just lucky.
1761 2011-01-26 21:02:10 <lfm> second hand? they been overclocked for games before?
1762 2011-01-26 21:02:28 <slush> probably
1763 2011-01-26 21:03:49 <molecular> slush: that first 5970 at 90°C at 100% fan?
1764 2011-01-26 21:04:12 <slush> exactly 84 oC at 90% fan
1765 2011-01-26 21:04:32 <molecular> at 725Mhz, phew. that's bad even compared to my cheap saphire
1766 2011-01-26 21:04:40 <slush> it IS saphire :)
1767 2011-01-26 21:04:44 <molecular> :)
1768 2011-01-26 21:04:46 <lfm> or is the fan fubar
1769 2011-01-26 21:04:53 <ArtForz> is that 2nd hand?
1770 2011-01-26 21:04:58 <slush> no, fan is OK.
1771 2011-01-26 21:04:59 <slush> yes
1772 2011-01-26 21:05:10 <ArtForz> might wanna check if the bios is still orig
1773 2011-01-26 21:05:14 <molecular> I wonder why (s)he sold it.
1774 2011-01-26 21:05:16 <slush> but probably still in warranty. I'll try to apply it
1775 2011-01-26 21:05:42 <slush> he told me today that he had no problem with it. He does not known this temperature is high ;)
1776 2011-01-26 21:06:02 <slush> it's only one core, second is fine
1777 2011-01-26 21:06:25 <ArtForz> had one of those new too
1778 2011-01-26 21:06:32 <ArtForz> got it RMAd no problem
1779 2011-01-26 21:06:45 <ArtForz> well... even worse
1780 2011-01-26 21:06:54 <ArtForz> one core was ~80°C idle
1781 2011-01-26 21:07:02 <lfm> is it aftermarket cooler? maybe thermal compound is applied bad
1782 2011-01-26 21:07:02 <slush> heh
1783 2011-01-26 21:07:13 <ArtForz> applying load crashed within 2 sec
1784 2011-01-26 21:07:22 <slush> he told me that's stock and he didn't removed it
1785 2011-01-26 21:08:10 <ArtForz> yeah, check if its still under warranty
1786 2011-01-26 21:08:44 <ArtForz> as reapplying thermal compund on these is a major PITA
1787 2011-01-26 21:10:39 andrew12^mac has joined
1788 2011-01-26 21:11:09 <molecular> I changed the Statusline in Diablos Miner to look a little better and have more info:
1789 2011-01-26 21:11:16 <molecular> 7.20m: 611.82 mhash/s (30s avg), 8.31 s/block Cypress (#2) found #53
1790 2011-01-26 21:11:24 <molecular> 7.45m: 610.19 mhash/s (30s avg), 8.13 s/block Cypress (#2) found #55
1791 2011-01-26 21:11:32 <molecular> and so on. if anyone's interested
1792 2011-01-26 21:11:32 <lfm> and risc of damage warpping to dippy heat sink networks
1793 2011-01-26 21:11:50 <ArtForz> ?
1794 2011-01-26 21:12:30 <lfm> heat sinks on ram chips
1795 2011-01-26 21:12:56 <sipa> molecular: looks nice
1796 2011-01-26 21:13:26 <molecular> I think it's just the one line: "System.out.print("\r" + twoDec.format((float)(now - startTime) / 60000) + "m: " + twoDec.format((float)averageKHashCount / 1E3)+ " mhash/s (" + (TIME_OFFSET / 500) + "s avg), " +  twoDec.format( ((double)(now - startTime) / 1E3) / currentAttempts.get() ) + " s/block" );"
1797 2011-01-26 21:13:37 <lfm> molecular: what happened to found #54?
1798 2011-01-26 21:14:07 <molecular> I'm apending the "found"-message to the end of the status-line. has the nice effect that you have a history of status-lines
1799 2011-01-26 21:14:21 <molecular> ah
1800 2011-01-26 21:14:37 <molecular> sorry, #54 was dropped due to me having trouble pasting multiple lines to irc
1801 2011-01-26 21:14:42 <Keefe> slush: Sapphire will only do warranty service for the original purchaser and wants proof of purchase from a retailer (not ebay)
1802 2011-01-26 21:14:42 <sipa> molecular: minor detail, but mhash would mean millihash ;)
1803 2011-01-26 21:14:54 <molecular> Mhash/s?
1804 2011-01-26 21:14:58 <molecular> will fix ;)
1805 2011-01-26 21:15:06 <sipa> yes :)
1806 2011-01-26 21:15:17 <sipa> btw, i changed the output of found blocks too
1807 2011-01-26 21:15:24 <molecular> how?
1808 2011-01-26 21:15:28 <sipa> [1/26/11 10:01:16 PM] [#1 276] 00000000160F147BD3B1D0F5B78D2E8FE8558D8FF0944C7B2339CBF19587816D (score 11.61)
1809 2011-01-26 21:15:48 <molecular> cool
1810 2011-01-26 21:15:56 <sipa> so that i can know which block i found, if the pool finds one :)
1811 2011-01-26 21:15:57 <slush> lfm: I'll apply warranty directly to retailer. It's one local shop.
1812 2011-01-26 21:16:01 <molecular> what's "score"?
1813 2011-01-26 21:16:08 <sipa> molecular: the difficulty it would beat
1814 2011-01-26 21:16:18 <molecular> cool, I want that
1815 2011-01-26 21:16:47 <sipa> i'll make a patch against the latest git
1816 2011-01-26 21:18:20 <molecular> I finally got my system running nicely. The one big problem I had with getting varying results and sometimes X taking up 100% cpu and shit didn't appear any more after I stopped using a stupid "watch -n 1 'for card in 0 1; do aticonfig --adapter=$card --od-gettemp; done;'"
1817 2011-01-26 21:18:32 theymos has joined
1818 2011-01-26 21:19:12 <molecular> sipa: how do you do that? (new to git)
1819 2011-01-26 21:19:20 <theymos> Is the way printblock, getblock, and BBE display hashes incorrect?
1820 2011-01-26 21:19:42 <sipa> theymos: how do you mean?
1821 2011-01-26 21:20:16 <molecular> oh, "git diff". hrm.
1822 2011-01-26 21:21:11 <theymos> sipa: Apparently, when you deal with the data directly you must completely reverse the hashes. See http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2957.msg41602#msg41602 .
1823 2011-01-26 21:21:12 <lfm> theymos: you mean the byte order? might help if there was a standard way to display em I spoze
1824 2011-01-26 21:21:40 <andrew12^mac> i wonder what will happen after 4294967296 blocks
1825 2011-01-26 21:21:46 <lfm> theymos kinda debatable which way is "right"
1826 2011-01-26 21:21:48 <andrew12^mac> (thats the highest 32 bit integer)
1827 2011-01-26 21:21:55 <andrew12^mac> we
1828 2011-01-26 21:21:57 <andrew12^mac> er*
1829 2011-01-26 21:22:02 <andrew12^mac> 4294967295
1830 2011-01-26 21:22:03 <sipa> andrew12^mac: no, that's the highest 32 bit unsigned integer + 1 ;)
1831 2011-01-26 21:22:12 <andrew12^mac> sipa: yes. :p
1832 2011-01-26 21:22:25 <andrew12^mac> ;;calc 2^32-1
1833 2011-01-26 21:22:26 <gribble> (2^32) - 1 = 4,294,967,295
1834 2011-01-26 21:22:29 <andrew12^mac> yay
1835 2011-01-26 21:22:43 <sipa> theymos: the first 8 hexadecimal digits in that printout refer to the last 32 bits of the hash output
1836 2011-01-26 21:22:44 <lfm> or the first 33 bit unsigned?
1837 2011-01-26 21:22:56 <andrew12^mac> lol
1838 2011-01-26 21:23:29 <andrew12^mac> i should start doing my math homework in binary to confuse the shit out of my teacher :P
1839 2011-01-26 21:23:39 <andrew12^mac> better yet, base 3
1840 2011-01-26 21:23:44 <sipa> use base phi
1841 2011-01-26 21:23:53 <ArtForz> use base e
1842 2011-01-26 21:23:53 <sipa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
1843 2011-01-26 21:24:05 <lfm> base thre with 0,1 and -1
1844 2011-01-26 21:24:11 <cosurgi> uh. No luck with new Diablo's miner. it's already 30 hours. now I'm getting to 60% probability of finding. But also, on average - I'm two blocks behind schedule.
1845 2011-01-26 21:24:36 <cosurgi> going to sleep soon, anyway, will see in the morning
1846 2011-01-26 21:24:44 <ArtForz> gamblers fallacy
1847 2011-01-26 21:24:49 <sipa> theymos: but since that way corresponds to how it is compared to the target, i suppose it's the best way for showing it
1848 2011-01-26 21:25:13 <cosurgi> ArtForz: :-)
1849 2011-01-26 21:25:21 <andrew12^mac> it would take me forever to understand base phi
1850 2011-01-26 21:25:46 <sipa> no :)
1851 2011-01-26 21:26:10 <lfm> andrew12 try http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/base-3.txt
1852 2011-01-26 21:26:25 <andrew12^mac> haha
1853 2011-01-26 21:26:33 <andrew12^mac> -/\
1854 2011-01-26 21:27:09 <theymos> Thanks, sipa & lfm. I was considering Bitcoin's own printblock to be canonical, but if it's objectively wrong then I would have to change the way BBE shows things. I guess there's no problem if either way can be correct.
1855 2011-01-26 21:27:31 <ArtForz> imo printblock is canonical
1856 2011-01-26 21:27:40 prax has joined
1857 2011-01-26 21:27:43 <sipa> is it?
1858 2011-01-26 21:27:46 <sipa> hmm
1859 2011-01-26 21:27:47 <ArtForz> it's not called printrawbytes, is it?
1860 2011-01-26 21:28:02 <lfm> theymos its like the old bigenmdian / little endia debate. no real solution
1861 2011-01-26 21:28:02 <sipa> true
1862 2011-01-26 21:28:19 * andrew12^mac fires cannons at everyone
1863 2011-01-26 21:28:23 <andrew12^mac> hows that for canonical?
1864 2011-01-26 21:28:25 <ArtForz> bitcoin also uses sha256 hashes "wrong way around" for showing partial tx hashes and stuff
1865 2011-01-26 21:28:56 <sipa> no, it is probably the correct human base-16 representation of the 256-bit output of sha256 interpreted as a little-endian number
1866 2011-01-26 21:28:58 <jgarzik> little endian won by volume ;-)
1867 2011-01-26 21:29:03 <theymos> Perhaps the issue should be mentioned here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Dump_format
1868 2011-01-26 21:29:04 <ArtForz> yep
1869 2011-01-26 21:29:18 <lfm> andrew12 canon is like a bible. cannon is a big gun
1870 2011-01-26 21:29:22 <ArtForz> of course official docs say output of sha256 is big endian :P
1871 2011-01-26 21:29:28 <sipa> which makes sense, since it is compared to others as a number
1872 2011-01-26 21:29:37 <jgarzik> big endian is buried in routers and traffic signals and places that do not care about the details of end-user network protocols.
1873 2011-01-26 21:29:40 <sipa> so only the interpretation as little endian of sha256 is "wrong"
1874 2011-01-26 21:29:48 <ArtForz> yep
1875 2011-01-26 21:30:09 luke-jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1876 2011-01-26 21:30:09 <lfm> internet "network" byte order is big endian
1877 2011-01-26 21:30:15 <sipa> indeed
1878 2011-01-26 21:30:16 luke-jr has joined
1879 2011-01-26 21:30:20 <jgarzik> lfm: yes -- see above :)
1880 2011-01-26 21:31:05 <sipa> what is the difficulty on testnet now?
1881 2011-01-26 21:31:11 sokrates- has quit ()
1882 2011-01-26 21:31:21 <jgarzik> the computers have have to decode the network protocols are overwhelmingly little endian
1883 2011-01-26 21:31:25 <jgarzik> that have to
1884 2011-01-26 21:31:44 <ArtForz> yup
1885 2011-01-26 21:31:56 <ArtForz> btw, which protocol was it that encoded everything as both-endian?
1886 2011-01-26 21:32:19 <lfm> computers dont really have that much trouble translating endians when they have to
1887 2011-01-26 21:32:34 <ArtForz> 0x01020304 ended up as 01 02 03 04 04 03 02 01
1888 2011-01-26 21:32:39 <sipa> wow
1889 2011-01-26 21:32:40 <jgarzik> both LE and BE CPUs have byteswap instructions, sure.  that doesn't make it magically faster.
1890 2011-01-26 21:32:43 lyspooner has joined
1891 2011-01-26 21:32:46 <lfm> mostly just humans get confused
1892 2011-01-26 21:32:50 <sipa> what a waste
1893 2011-01-26 21:33:00 <sipa> although, not more than json ;)
1894 2011-01-26 21:33:01 <ArtForz> and PDP/11 users still feel left out
1895 2011-01-26 21:33:04 <jgarzik> PDP endian exists in addition to LE and BE
1896 2011-01-26 21:33:11 <jgarzik> ArtForz: :)
1897 2011-01-26 21:33:13 <ArtForz> or was it /7
1898 2011-01-26 21:33:14 <sipa> 3412-byteorder?
1899 2011-01-26 21:33:20 <ArtForz> yep, good old NUXI
1900 2011-01-26 21:33:25 <andrew12^mac> gonna do math homework in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_coding
1901 2011-01-26 21:33:45 <andrew12^mac> 65 = 0100100011
1902 2011-01-26 21:34:12 <lfm> andrew12 great! piss everyone off
1903 2011-01-26 21:34:52 <andrew12^mac> :D
1904 2011-01-26 21:35:52 <andrew12^mac> (kidding of course)
1905 2011-01-26 21:36:32 <sipa> wow even downloading testnet blockchain takes some time :)
1906 2011-01-26 21:36:44 <ArtForz> I fucking hated math in school
1907 2011-01-26 21:36:53 * luke-jr sighs.
1908 2011-01-26 21:37:02 <jgarzik> anyone willing to add Pecunix GAU support to bitcoin-central, for BTC?
1909 2011-01-26 21:37:02 <sipa> i liked it :)
1910 2011-01-26 21:37:07 <luke-jr> someone needs to talk some sense into Kiba so he fixes his UNLICENSE license. :P
1911 2011-01-26 21:37:12 <lfm> well its easy for teachers to screw it up
1912 2011-01-26 21:37:18 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I'd be glad to add TBC support ;)
1913 2011-01-26 21:37:24 <ArtForz> not like it was hard, teacher was boooring
1914 2011-01-26 21:39:09 <sipa> ;;calcd 98000 186.852885
1915 2011-01-26 21:39:09 <gribble> Error: "calcd" is not a valid command.
1916 2011-01-26 21:39:13 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 98000 186.852885
1917 2011-01-26 21:39:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 98000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 186.852885, is 2 hours, 16 minutes, and 29 seconds
1918 2011-01-26 21:39:14 <luke-jr> jgarzik: where's the source repo?
1919 2011-01-26 21:39:32 <sipa> bah, i don't feel like mining for 2.25 hours just to test something!
1920 2011-01-26 21:39:34 <nanotube> luke-jr: bitcoin-central is on github
1921 2011-01-26 21:40:17 Tritonio has joined
1922 2011-01-26 21:40:17 <lfm> xipa just set up two node isolated btc net of your own at difficulty one then
1923 2011-01-26 21:41:20 <luke-jr> who runs -central?
1924 2011-01-26 21:41:48 <nanotube> davout
1925 2011-01-26 21:42:09 <luke-jr> he use IRC?
1926 2011-01-26 21:42:20 <nanotube> ;;seen davout
1927 2011-01-26 21:42:20 <gribble> davout was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 22 hours, 22 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: * davout is trapped in wikipedia
1928 2011-01-26 21:42:25 <nanotube> yes :)
1929 2011-01-26 21:43:26 <luke-jr> ;;later tell davout Hey, I'm interested in adding TBC support to BitCoin Central, and just wanted to verify you're not hostile to TBC and would accept the completed patch, before I spend time writing it. Thanks!
1930 2011-01-26 21:43:26 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1931 2011-01-26 21:44:22 <luke-jr> assuming he's ok w/ it, any reason not to create the bitcoin-central git repo with my stuff under the umbrella BitCoin project in Gitorious?
1932 2011-01-26 21:44:23 <lyspooner> ;;later tell lyspooner tell lyspooner to tell lyspooner later
1933 2011-01-26 21:44:23 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1934 2011-01-26 21:45:02 <lfm> tbc == test bit coin?
1935 2011-01-26 21:45:10 <ArtForz> no, tonal bitcoin
1936 2011-01-26 21:45:13 <nanotube> lfm: no, that's luke-jr pet 'tonal bitcoin' project. :)
1937 2011-01-26 21:45:53 <nanotube> luke-jr: dunno, git is distributed, you can stick your repo anywhere you like...
1938 2011-01-26 21:45:59 <lfm> do I want to know?
1939 2011-01-26 21:46:12 <ArtForz> no
1940 2011-01-26 21:46:56 <ArtForz> unless you like sermons about why base16 using weird symbols as digits is way better than decimal
1941 2011-01-26 21:47:05 <theymos> It's apparently some counting system that no one will ever use because it is inherently counterintuitive...
1942 2011-01-26 21:47:32 <sipa> i don't think it's counterintuitive, just so different from what everyone has learned, that it's very hard to adopt
1943 2011-01-26 21:47:41 <ArtForz> well, or not different enough
1944 2011-01-26 21:47:43 <nanotube> theymos: well, it's not counterintuitive - only to those who are used to decimal.
1945 2011-01-26 21:47:52 <nanotube> which is... almost everyone
1946 2011-01-26 21:47:56 <sipa> indeed
1947 2011-01-26 21:47:57 <lfm> ie everyone
1948 2011-01-26 21:48:00 <nanotube> right :)
1949 2011-01-26 21:48:12 <ArtForz> putting another digit between standard decimal 8 and 9 symbols? yeah. great idea.
1950 2011-01-26 21:48:28 <sipa> that's confusing indeed
1951 2011-01-26 21:48:30 <nanotube> and since it, afaics, provides absolutely no benefits, besides being 'different'... i don't see a bright future for it. :)
1952 2011-01-26 21:48:36 <theymos> Roman numerals are also inherently counterintuitive for math.
1953 2011-01-26 21:48:37 <lfm> ok, sorry I asked :-)
1954 2011-01-26 21:48:41 <luke-jr> nanotube: but the bitcoin-central site isn't distributed :P
1955 2011-01-26 21:49:00 <luke-jr> theymos: Tonal is more intuitive than Decimal :P
1956 2011-01-26 21:49:13 <sipa> it may be for someone who has never learned decimal
1957 2011-01-26 21:49:14 <nanotube> luke-jr: true. but if davout responds in the affirmative for adding a tbc-display-option... you can stick it anywhere, and he should be able to pull.
1958 2011-01-26 21:49:21 <sipa> i would actuallt believe that
1959 2011-01-26 21:49:30 <luke-jr> nanotube: yeah, just wondering from a principle side
1960 2011-01-26 21:49:35 <nanotube> luke-jr: i guess most convenient would be github, since it supports pull requests etc...
1961 2011-01-26 21:49:37 <luke-jr> sipa: ie, all my children
1962 2011-01-26 21:49:44 <sipa> you have any?
1963 2011-01-26 21:49:45 <ArtForz> it'd still be confusing as hell for both sides
1964 2011-01-26 21:49:51 <luke-jr> nanotube: but GitHub's ToS is unacceptable
1965 2011-01-26 21:49:56 <luke-jr> sipa: 4 so far
1966 2011-01-26 21:50:05 <nanotube> luke-jr: that's what i thought. :) so if it's not on github, it can be anywhere.
1967 2011-01-26 21:50:20 m0mchil has quit ()
1968 2011-01-26 21:50:33 <luke-jr> nanotube: GitHub's ToS requires that if anyone sues them over something relating to my project/branch, I had to fight for them in court at my expense
1969 2011-01-26 21:50:43 <nanotube> luke-jr: i hope they're multi-number-system-al, rather than just tonal. otherwise they'd have trouble when they have to talk to just about anyone. :)
1970 2011-01-26 21:50:44 <luke-jr> which is something I'm not really interested in obliging myself to
1971 2011-01-26 21:50:59 <luke-jr> nanotube: yes, they're learning Decimal as a second number system
1972 2011-01-26 21:51:00 <nanotube> luke-jr: hehe wut? sounds weird.
1973 2011-01-26 21:51:00 <andrew12^mac> then don't get yourself sued?
1974 2011-01-26 21:51:01 <andrew12^mac> :P
1975 2011-01-26 21:51:10 <luke-jr> nanotube: don't read the ToS you sign on to?
1976 2011-01-26 21:51:15 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: no, if someone sues GitHub
1977 2011-01-26 21:51:21 <nanotube> yea i read it once upon a time.
1978 2011-01-26 21:51:26 <andrew12^mac> for your project/branch
1979 2011-01-26 21:51:27 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: even if there's no basis at all
1980 2011-01-26 21:51:28 <nanotube> a long time ago. heh and probably not very carefully.
1981 2011-01-26 21:51:35 CyanDynamo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1982 2011-01-26 21:51:48 <luke-jr> at the very least, that means I'd have to fly out to github's court sessions
1983 2011-01-26 21:51:53 <luke-jr> waste of time and money
1984 2011-01-26 21:52:19 CyanDynamo has joined
1985 2011-01-26 21:52:49 <andrew12^mac> rain rain go away!
1986 2011-01-26 21:53:02 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1987 2011-01-26 21:53:23 <luke-jr> anyhow, the reaosn I asked is because I want to give Gitorious's BitCoin project over to be the official branch someday ;)
1988 2011-01-26 21:53:37 <luke-jr> so the question is if having BitCoin-Central's code in the same project, would be a hinderance to that
1989 2011-01-26 21:53:41 <sipa> luke-jr: by the way, i'm not sure introducing a different base for TBC is the right thing to do
1990 2011-01-26 21:53:45 <andrew12^mac> gitorious's bitcoin project?
1991 2011-01-26 21:53:55 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1992 2011-01-26 21:54:04 <andrew12^mac> sipa: imo introducing tbc wasn't the right thing to do.
1993 2011-01-26 21:54:05 <luke-jr> sipa: the whole point of TBC (and my involvement in bitcoin, really) is the Tonal number system
1994 2011-01-26 21:54:05 <sipa> i mean saying 1 TBC = 2^16/10^8 BTC
1995 2011-01-26 21:54:08 <EvanR-work> numbers are numbers, regardless of base
1996 2011-01-26 21:54:22 <EvanR-work> ignore the notation if you dont like it ;)
1997 2011-01-26 21:54:23 <sipa> luke-jr: i'm not arguing about TBC itself, now
1998 2011-01-26 21:54:28 <luke-jr> sipa: ?
1999 2011-01-26 21:55:01 <sipa> luke-jr: what i mean is this: the unit is the bitcoin, not the centimicrobitcoin
2000 2011-01-26 21:55:10 <nanotube> luke-jr: probably best to start a separate project on gitorious
2001 2011-01-26 21:55:11 <sipa> that's just how the current implementation works
2002 2011-01-26 21:55:20 <ArtForz> but the unit *is* the centimicrobitcoin
2003 2011-01-26 21:55:28 <sipa> the implementation unit is
2004 2011-01-26 21:55:32 <sipa> the monetary unit isn't
2005 2011-01-26 21:55:53 <luke-jr> sipa: 1 BTC = 1 TBC would be confusing and problematic
2006 2011-01-26 21:56:06 <andrew12^mac> heh
2007 2011-01-26 21:56:07 <luke-jr> since you could only divide it into 100 (256 deci) pieces
2008 2011-01-26 21:56:20 bulletbill has joined
2009 2011-01-26 21:56:21 <luke-jr> also, it would make people think that 10 BTC = 10 TBC
2010 2011-01-26 21:56:29 <luke-jr> which wouldn't be true
2011 2011-01-26 21:56:38 <sipa> i see the problem
2012 2011-01-26 21:56:40 ApertureScience has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2013 2011-01-26 21:56:45 <luke-jr> finally, there would be no way to detect if the monetary value is intended to be BTC or TBC
2014 2011-01-26 21:56:47 <sipa> but confusing you will do anyway
2015 2011-01-26 21:57:06 <luke-jr> as it is, I have code on the wiki that can identify if any given bitcoin value is TBC or BTC ;)
2016 2011-01-26 21:57:07 <andrew12^mac> but isnt there like 2 whole people that even want to use tonal?
2017 2011-01-26 21:57:16 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: at least 5 ;)
2018 2011-01-26 21:57:25 <luke-jr> hopefully more over time
2019 2011-01-26 21:57:28 <bulletbill> hello...is there any way to get the UTC time of a block/transaction with the RPC API in 3.19?
2020 2011-01-26 21:57:35 <sipa> and what if the implementation/protocol is changed to use eg. 10^-16 units?
2021 2011-01-26 21:57:46 <ArtForz> how would that work?
2022 2011-01-26 21:57:47 <luke-jr> sipa: that would require a whole new system
2023 2011-01-26 21:57:51 <ArtForz> yeah
2024 2011-01-26 21:58:01 <lfm> luke-jr: 5 people? you and your 4 kids? not even their mother?
2025 2011-01-26 21:58:12 <andrew12^mac> lfm: LMFAO
2026 2011-01-26 21:58:15 <luke-jr> lfm: my wife isn't into math at all ;)
2027 2011-01-26 21:58:28 <sipa> it would require a change in the protocol, data structures, ...
2028 2011-01-26 21:58:32 <ArtForz> yep
2029 2011-01-26 21:58:44 <luke-jr> sipa: it would no longer be the same bitcoin chain
2030 2011-01-26 21:58:48 <ArtForz> might as well call it a new currency
2031 2011-01-26 21:58:49 <sipa> but if bitcoin ever seriously takes off (which i doubt in its current form), that may be once necessary
2032 2011-01-26 21:58:49 <nanotube> ArtForz: so shouldn't we add extra decimals now, while it's still early? cuz if it ever comes to pass that 1 btc is worth 10000000 usd... we'd be fscked, divisibility-wise
2033 2011-01-26 21:59:06 <luke-jr> sipa: TBC is designed assuming it DOES take off
2034 2011-01-26 21:59:10 <nanotube> just set a date in the future where more decimal places are stored in the chain
2035 2011-01-26 21:59:13 <ArtForz> I think divisibility is plenty
2036 2011-01-26 21:59:14 <andrew12^mac> nanotube: we'd also be rich :P
2037 2011-01-26 21:59:30 <nanotube> and set all 'old' bitcoins equal to 10e16 new units
2038 2011-01-26 21:59:38 <luke-jr> there are a total of 7.7 Tam-TBC
2039 2011-01-26 21:59:42 <nanotube> andrew12^mac: haha yea if chain survives
2040 2011-01-26 21:59:42 <lyspooner> if divisibility is a problem, people should demand the products they buy become bulkier
2041 2011-01-26 21:59:55 doublec has joined
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2043 2011-01-26 21:59:55 doublec has joined
2044 2011-01-26 21:59:56 <nanotube> yea, or exchange into something more divisible prior to buying...
2045 2011-01-26 22:00:01 <ArtForz> yep
2046 2011-01-26 22:00:13 <luke-jr> that's 1,0000,0000 (4,294,967,296 decimal) times 7.7 (7.4 deci) ;)
2047 2011-01-26 22:00:17 <lfm> lyspooner: costco would love it
2048 2011-01-26 22:00:25 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2049 2011-01-26 22:00:39 <luke-jr> each TBC can also be divided into 1,0000 (65,536 deci) pieces
2050 2011-01-26 22:01:09 <lyspooner> we won't be worrying about divisibility when the moonpeople come and solve SHA4 with an ipod
2051 2011-01-26 22:01:16 <nanotube> lyspooner: lol
2052 2011-01-26 22:01:18 <sipa> haha
2053 2011-01-26 22:01:22 <luke-jr> 30 billion TBC divisible into 65k piece each, is plenty for widescale adoption
2054 2011-01-26 22:01:29 <lfm> the worst thing is even "TBC" is ambigous with testbitcoin
2055 2011-01-26 22:01:44 <luke-jr> lfm: TBC came first
2056 2011-01-26 22:01:54 <nanotube> luke-jr: right, as is 21e14 smallest bitcoin units...
2057 2011-01-26 22:02:11 <lfm> syill ambiguous
2058 2011-01-26 22:02:13 <luke-jr> nanotube: sure
2059 2011-01-26 22:02:14 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2060 2011-01-26 22:02:24 <luke-jr> lfm: so lart people who are using it for testbitcoin
2061 2011-01-26 22:02:32 mtgox has joined
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2063 2011-01-26 22:02:43 ducki2p has left ()
2064 2011-01-26 22:02:47 <sipa> when did you "conceive" TCB?
2065 2011-01-26 22:02:49 <sipa> TBC?
2066 2011-01-26 22:02:49 <luke-jr> get them to use TBTC or T.BTC
2067 2011-01-26 22:02:52 <luke-jr> sipa: Jan 2
2068 2011-01-26 22:02:54 <ArtForz> what about tuberculosis bacterium coins?
2069 2011-01-26 22:02:55 <lfm> luke-jr: hold a vote
2070 2011-01-26 22:03:06 <sipa> the test network is way older, no?
2071 2011-01-26 22:03:07 <lyspooner> TCBY coins
2072 2011-01-26 22:03:15 <luke-jr> I didn't see even TBTC until like yesterday anywhere
2073 2011-01-26 22:03:22 <EvanR-work> lfm: by making a fork and publishing it as an open source project, its a vote
2074 2011-01-26 22:03:24 <luke-jr> still haven't seen anyone try to use TBC for testbitcoin
2075 2011-01-26 22:03:48 * sipa is currently mining his first 50 TBC!
2076 2011-01-26 22:03:53 <sipa> there you go
2077 2011-01-26 22:03:57 <sipa> ;)
2078 2011-01-26 22:03:58 <ArtForz> we usually call em TESTcoins
2079 2011-01-26 22:04:05 <luke-jr> TC?
2080 2011-01-26 22:04:11 <luke-jr> yeah, I think I've seen that before
2081 2011-01-26 22:04:12 <nanotube> ArtForz: they've been referred to as tbtc and tnbtc on #bitcoin-otc
2082 2011-01-26 22:04:14 <andrew12^mac> or TBTC, or TNBTC
2083 2011-01-26 22:04:18 <ArtForz> Thermal Coefficient?
2084 2011-01-26 22:04:28 <andrew12^mac> Tasty Cheezits!
2085 2011-01-26 22:04:31 <nanotube> that said, tbc and tbtc are a bit close
2086 2011-01-26 22:04:45 <luke-jr> TBTC was only used for like the first 2 days of TonalBitCoin
2087 2011-01-26 22:04:48 <EvanR-work> tbs
2088 2011-01-26 22:04:54 <EvanR-work> very funny
2089 2011-01-26 22:04:56 <luke-jr> nanotube: so let's encourage TNBTC :P
2090 2011-01-26 22:04:58 <andrew12^mac> why not just call it tonal
2091 2011-01-26 22:04:59 <ArtForz> and what about tonal test bitcoins?
2092 2011-01-26 22:05:06 <luke-jr> TNTBC?
2093 2011-01-26 22:05:07 <sipa> TTNBTC
2094 2011-01-26 22:05:13 <nanotube> hehe
2095 2011-01-26 22:05:14 <lfm> lcabtc == lukes crazy assed tonal bit coins
2096 2011-01-26 22:05:15 <dirtyfilthy> TMNT
2097 2011-01-26 22:05:18 <dirtyfilthy> was a great show
2098 2011-01-26 22:05:20 <EvanR-work> tmntcoins
2099 2011-01-26 22:05:21 <sipa> TNT-BC is very nice
2100 2011-01-26 22:05:23 <luke-jr> I want some TNUSD
2101 2011-01-26 22:05:36 <nanotube> sure let me mint some up
2102 2011-01-26 22:05:47 <andrew12^mac> Trinitroluene Bitcoins.
2103 2011-01-26 22:05:50 <luke-jr> is that monopoly money?
2104 2011-01-26 22:06:02 <andrew12^mac> tnbtc is monopoly money
2105 2011-01-26 22:06:03 <andrew12^mac> omg guys
2106 2011-01-26 22:06:04 <nanotube> or zimbabwe dollars. :)
2107 2011-01-26 22:06:14 <luke-jr> …
2108 2011-01-26 22:06:19 <luke-jr> BitCoin Monopoly anyone?
2109 2011-01-26 22:06:20 <andrew12^mac> someone should make a site that is monopoly with TNBTC
2110 2011-01-26 22:06:28 Vaerros has joined
2111 2011-01-26 22:06:33 <andrew12^mac> lol
2112 2011-01-26 22:06:45 <andrew12^mac> or cashflow. that game is fun too.
2113 2011-01-26 22:06:47 <luke-jr> would work better with TBC :P
2114 2011-01-26 22:06:51 <lyspooner> nanotube can you bring up #bitcoin-otc orders from this room?  i have a resting bid for TBTC if people are interested
2115 2011-01-26 22:06:57 <luke-jr> everyone puts in 1000 TBC and play with that
2116 2011-01-26 22:07:12 <andrew12^mac> lyspooner: testnet bitcoins? the testnet is going to be redone soonish
2117 2011-01-26 22:07:26 <andrew12^mac> lyspooner: also just do ;;view -- it works anywhere where gribble is.
2118 2011-01-26 22:07:30 <nanotube> lyspooner: yes, just run 'view <ordernum>'
2119 2011-01-26 22:07:34 <andrew12^mac> or that
2120 2011-01-26 22:07:47 <andrew12^mac> anyone ever played cashflow?
2121 2011-01-26 22:08:02 <lyspooner> ;;view 317
2122 2011-01-26 22:08:02 <gribble> Error: No orders found matching these criteria.
2123 2011-01-26 22:08:07 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2124 2011-01-26 22:08:08 <lfm> stock-ticker
2125 2011-01-26 22:08:09 <lyspooner> oops
2126 2011-01-26 22:08:13 <lyspooner> ;;view 371
2127 2011-01-26 22:08:13 <gribble> #371 Thu Jan 20 14:39:00 2011 unaffiliated/mpkomara BUY 500000.0 tbtc @ 10.0 usd (None)
2128 2011-01-26 22:08:21 <molecular> andrew12, played it once
2129 2011-01-26 22:08:28 <andrew12^mac> its fun! :p
2130 2011-01-26 22:08:48 <andrew12^mac> it takes forever though
2131 2011-01-26 22:09:06 <EvanR-work> monopoly has fast rules
2132 2011-01-26 22:09:13 <EvanR-work> which i think no one has ever tried
2133 2011-01-26 22:09:58 <lfm> EvanR-work: I have, its nice fast
2134 2011-01-26 22:10:11 Vaerros has left ()
2135 2011-01-26 22:10:38 <EvanR-work> what are they again?
2136 2011-01-26 22:10:58 <EvanR-work> everone is distributed deeds
2137 2011-01-26 22:10:58 <luke-jr> would anyone else play monopoly with TBC?
2138 2011-01-26 22:10:59 <andrew12^mac> do not pass go, do not collect $200
2139 2011-01-26 22:11:16 <luke-jr> 1000 TBC game with N players can yield N*1000 TBC winnings
2140 2011-01-26 22:11:30 <luke-jr> any leftover bank money goes to game operation funds
2141 2011-01-26 22:11:46 <EvanR-work> ill play for a hundred million centimicro coins
2142 2011-01-26 22:11:55 <andrew12^mac> heh
2143 2011-01-26 22:11:55 <EvanR-work> im a high roller
2144 2011-01-26 22:12:03 <lfm> ie 1 btc
2145 2011-01-26 22:12:08 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
2146 2011-01-26 22:12:17 <luke-jr> 1000 TBC = 2.68435456 BTC
2147 2011-01-26 22:12:17 <dirtyfilthy> if it was for money i'd spend time trying to minimax that shit
2148 2011-01-26 22:12:26 <luke-jr> minimax?
2149 2011-01-26 22:12:26 <andrew12^mac> luke-jr: do we have to supply these bitcoins?
2150 2011-01-26 22:12:38 dukeleto has joined
2151 2011-01-26 22:12:41 <dirtyfilthy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax
2152 2011-01-26 22:12:43 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: each player puts in 1000 TBC
2153 2011-01-26 22:12:51 <luke-jr> eg, output is never > input
2154 2011-01-26 22:12:53 altamic has joined
2155 2011-01-26 22:12:53 altamic has quit (Changing host)
2156 2011-01-26 22:12:53 altamic has joined
2157 2011-01-26 22:13:02 <andrew12^mac> hm
2158 2011-01-26 22:13:09 <andrew12^mac> does the winner keep what they get?
2159 2011-01-26 22:13:12 <lfm> luke-jr: I wanna be banker
2160 2011-01-26 22:13:12 <luke-jr> but if output is < input, it goes to fund game
2161 2011-01-26 22:13:18 <andrew12^mac> lfm: lol
2162 2011-01-26 22:13:29 <luke-jr> I forget how to play monopoly
2163 2011-01-26 22:13:34 <andrew12^mac> lol
2164 2011-01-26 22:13:34 <luke-jr> does winner end up with all the funds?
2165 2011-01-26 22:13:56 <lfm> luke no winner is the last one broke
2166 2011-01-26 22:14:01 <luke-jr> if so, winner takes his winnings, maximum <input bitcoins>
2167 2011-01-26 22:14:10 <luke-jr> ok, so yeah
2168 2011-01-26 22:14:20 <luke-jr> whatever winner has at the end, are the winnings (except for the cap)
2169 2011-01-26 22:14:30 <andrew12^mac> ok
2170 2011-01-26 22:14:32 <andrew12^mac> i'll play
2171 2011-01-26 22:14:53 <luke-jr> cool
2172 2011-01-26 22:15:21 <luke-jr> anyone know an open source monopoly webapp? XD
2173 2011-01-26 22:15:30 <andrew12^mac> lol
2174 2011-01-26 22:15:43 <dirtyfilthy> http://www.amnesta.net/other/monopoly/
2175 2011-01-26 22:15:49 <dirtyfilthy> some people take it pretty seriously
2176 2011-01-26 22:16:08 <EvanR-work> atlantik is open source monopoly
2177 2011-01-26 22:16:17 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: but that's not web-based
2178 2011-01-26 22:16:19 <lfm> yup there are champoinships in vegas and stuff
2179 2011-01-26 22:16:20 <EvanR-work> good
2180 2011-01-26 22:16:30 <EvanR-work> web based equals necessarily shitty
2181 2011-01-26 22:16:42 <luke-jr> lol
2182 2011-01-26 22:16:48 <andrew12^mac> he's right though
2183 2011-01-26 22:17:02 <luke-jr> I know
2184 2011-01-26 22:17:11 <luke-jr> but webapps are required for adoption these days ☹
2185 2011-01-26 22:17:25 <EvanR-work> ill stay an orphan
2186 2011-01-26 22:17:42 <luke-jr> actually
2187 2011-01-26 22:17:45 <lfm> if you make a good one parker bros sues ya
2188 2011-01-26 22:17:45 <andrew12^mac> luke-jr: ok. write me a webapp that functions as a web browser
2189 2011-01-26 22:17:51 <andrew12^mac> :P
2190 2011-01-26 22:17:53 <luke-jr> with monetary winnings, maybe a standalone app would work
2191 2011-01-26 22:18:07 <luke-jr> lfm: well that's why you don't call it Monopoly :P
2192 2011-01-26 22:18:17 <andrew12^mac> Mon-oh-poly pl0x
2193 2011-01-26 22:18:18 <EvanR-work> adulau: they already have that
2194 2011-01-26 22:18:22 <EvanR-work> andrew12^mac:
2195 2011-01-26 22:18:26 fahadsadah has quit (Excess Flood)
2196 2011-01-26 22:18:27 <EvanR-work> it uses flash
2197 2011-01-26 22:18:34 <EvanR-work> its supposed to make internet explorer functional
2198 2011-01-26 22:18:38 <andrew12^mac> heh
2199 2011-01-26 22:18:58 <lfm> like that chrome plugin for ei?
2200 2011-01-26 22:19:04 <lfm> ie?
2201 2011-01-26 22:19:17 <EvanR-work> eieio
2202 2011-01-26 22:19:45 <lfm> flash flash here and a flash flash there
2203 2011-01-26 22:20:17 <andrew12^mac> here a flash there a flash
2204 2011-01-26 22:20:19 <andrew12^mac> everywhere a flash flash
2205 2011-01-26 22:20:38 <andrew12^mac> old mc donald just got flashed
2206 2011-01-26 22:20:40 <andrew12^mac> eieio
2207 2011-01-26 22:20:48 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2208 2011-01-26 22:21:14 <lfm> old mac gates had a browser
2209 2011-01-26 22:22:34 fahadsadah has joined
2210 2011-01-26 22:22:34 <lfm> gotta go eat see yall later
2211 2011-01-26 22:23:28 <andrew12^mac> gleee
2212 2011-01-26 22:23:37 <andrew12^mac> wireshark is working, i think
2213 2011-01-26 22:24:19 <andrew12^mac> erm
2214 2011-01-26 22:24:58 <jgarzik> andrew12^mac: you did a wireshark patch for bitcoin P2P network?  if so, that would be fantastic.
2215 2011-01-26 22:25:06 <andrew12^mac> jgarzik: wat
2216 2011-01-26 22:25:19 noagendamarket has joined
2217 2011-01-26 22:25:24 <jgarzik> wat?
2218 2011-01-26 22:25:30 <luke-jr> lol
2219 2011-01-26 22:25:35 <andrew12^mac> what do you mean
2220 2011-01-26 22:25:39 <luke-jr> sigh
2221 2011-01-26 22:25:49 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
2222 2011-01-26 22:25:49 noagendamarket has joined
2223 2011-01-26 22:25:52 <luke-jr> andrew12^mac: he means it would be FREAKING AWESOME if Wireshark interpreted BitCoin protocols
2224 2011-01-26 22:25:59 <jgarzik> yes
2225 2011-01-26 22:26:23 <jgarzik> all mature protocols are supported in wireshark.  it is standard during protocol development to create a wireshark patch for your new protocol.
2226 2011-01-26 22:26:32 <andrew12^mac> oh
2227 2011-01-26 22:26:39 <luke-jr> even immature. someone wrote an Armagetron dissector for our older protocol >.>
2228 2011-01-26 22:26:41 <andrew12^mac> you mean like have wireshark realize 'this is a block' etc?
2229 2011-01-26 22:27:02 <jgarzik> full decode of all bitcoin P2P packets: blocks, tx, inv, ...
2230 2011-01-26 22:27:18 <andrew12^mac> yeah I probably can't do that :P
2231 2011-01-26 22:27:53 * jgarzik wonders if wireshark has a python plugin api.  could smush ArtForz' python code into that, I bet.
2232 2011-01-26 22:28:01 SleepyMartian has joined
2233 2011-01-26 22:28:13 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2234 2011-01-26 22:28:22 <andrew12^mac> I wonder if I can make wireshark only show packets that start with 0xF9BEB4D9
2235 2011-01-26 22:28:26 <SleepyMartian> I have a running bitcoin client on one pc, what do I need to copy over to a second one to prevent it redownloading the chain?
2236 2011-01-26 22:28:27 <luke-jr> yes
2237 2011-01-26 22:28:39 <andrew12^mac> how?
2238 2011-01-26 22:28:43 <luke-jr> SleepyMartian: you want to lose your wallet too?
2239 2011-01-26 22:28:52 <jgarzik> SleepyMartian: blk*.dat
2240 2011-01-26 22:28:57 <SleepyMartian> luke-jr, I don't want them to share.
2241 2011-01-26 22:29:01 <SleepyMartian> A wallet.
2242 2011-01-26 22:29:08 <andrew12^mac> just copy blk*.dat
2243 2011-01-26 22:29:37 <SleepyMartian> Thanks.
2244 2011-01-26 22:30:21 <andrew12^mac> so, how do I have wireshark only show packets that start with F9BEB4D9?
2245 2011-01-26 22:32:01 <SleepyMartian> It gives me an error.
2246 2011-01-26 22:32:06 <SleepyMartian> Error loading blkindex.dat.
2247 2011-01-26 22:32:16 <andrew12^mac> did you copy blkindex.dat? :P
2248 2011-01-26 22:32:37 <andrew12^mac> SleepyMartian: are both the computers in the same lan?
2249 2011-01-26 22:32:48 <SleepyMartian> andrew12, most of the time yes.
2250 2011-01-26 22:33:22 <andrew12^mac> because you can use -addnode=firstcomputersip on the second computer's bitcoin and it will connect to your other computer
2251 2011-01-26 22:33:26 <andrew12^mac> and download the chain much faster
2252 2011-01-26 22:35:14 <SleepyMartian> Aah, thanks.
2253 2011-01-26 22:35:21 <SleepyMartian> That is much simpler than messing with the files.
2254 2011-01-26 22:36:24 <andrew12^mac> that's how i did it :P
2255 2011-01-26 22:37:53 <SleepyMartian> Wow, there are a lot more blocks than when I first started with bitcoin.
2256 2011-01-26 22:39:31 <andrew12^mac> that's how it works :P
2257 2011-01-26 22:43:04 <nanotube> SleepyMartian: when was the last time you checked in? :)
2258 2011-01-26 22:43:15 <SleepyMartian> 6 months or so ago.
2259 2011-01-26 22:43:36 <SleepyMartian> My bitcoins doubled in value from then.
2260 2011-01-26 22:43:46 <andrew12^mac> hmm
2261 2011-01-26 22:44:04 <nanotube> ehe nice
2262 2011-01-26 22:44:20 <jgarzik> six months ago was ... $0.08 or so?  more than doubled
2263 2011-01-26 22:44:29 <nanotube> yea, pentupled
2264 2011-01-26 22:44:32 <ArtForz> yeah, more like $0.06
2265 2011-01-26 22:44:45 <andrew12^mac> any idea why wireshark is giving me all this stuff before it even gets to the bitcoin command?
2266 2011-01-26 22:44:49 <andrew12^mac> http://pastebin.com/YNFbkdiC
2267 2011-01-26 22:45:07 <andrew12^mac> the magic bytes are in the center of line 4 :\
2268 2011-01-26 22:45:24 <ArtForz> we hit 0.08 like mid-oct
2269 2011-01-26 22:45:31 <sipa> you should look at tcp-ip payload
2270 2011-01-26 22:45:38 <sipa> there may be other headers before that
2271 2011-01-26 22:45:44 * SleepyMartian gets the exact date.
2272 2011-01-26 22:46:01 <andrew12^mac> ahh
2273 2011-01-26 22:46:03 <andrew12^mac> you're right
2274 2011-01-26 22:46:25 <andrew12^mac> http://cl.ly/4Dwr
2275 2011-01-26 22:46:37 <SleepyMartian> Wait, I fail at remembering.
2276 2011-01-26 22:46:40 <SleepyMartian> It was 3 months.
2277 2011-01-26 22:47:19 <luke-jr> speaking of Wireshark, is there a simple way to search for a string?
2278 2011-01-26 22:47:53 <andrew12^mac> luke-jr: i'm asking in #wireshark
2279 2011-01-26 22:48:38 <andrew12^mac> heh
2280 2011-01-26 22:48:39 <andrew12^mac> http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/rubypcap/
2281 2011-01-26 22:48:44 <luke-jr> Edit->Find Packet x.x
2282 2011-01-26 22:49:09 <andrew12^mac> ooh.
2283 2011-01-26 23:05:23 brunner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2284 2011-01-26 23:11:09 MartianW has joined
2285 2011-01-26 23:12:34 SleepyMartian has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2286 2011-01-26 23:15:13 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2287 2011-01-26 23:17:04 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
2288 2011-01-26 23:21:58 <necrodearia> In regards to promoting bitcoin, a response I got was
2289 2011-01-26 23:22:00 <necrodearia> well, since you're referring to virtual currency in the first place, I leave you with, "a fool and his gold, are often quickly parted"
2290 2011-01-26 23:23:06 sabalaba has joined
2291 2011-01-26 23:23:20 <necrodearia> naturally, due to unexplicable case of being unable to answer, I relay here for anyone to volunteer to assist me with a response ~_~
2292 2011-01-26 23:23:24 <andrew12^mac> what's a var_int?
2293 2011-01-26 23:24:00 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2294 2011-01-26 23:24:03 <necrodearia> andrew12^mac, that works, I'll try that.
2295 2011-01-26 23:24:10 <andrew12^mac> necrodearia: what?
2296 2011-01-26 23:24:42 <necrodearia> andrew12^mac, integer variable?
2297 2011-01-26 23:25:12 <andrew12^mac> well i know that... what i'm wondering is how i can pack that... in ruby at least.
2298 2011-01-26 23:25:18 <andrew12^mac> hm
2299 2011-01-26 23:25:20 <necrodearia> #ruby?
2300 2011-01-26 23:26:51 <andrew12^mac> might be a good idea to try that :p
2301 2011-01-26 23:33:39 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2302 2011-01-26 23:36:05 Kiba has joined
2303 2011-01-26 23:42:20 <andrew12^mac> hm
2304 2011-01-26 23:43:04 <Kiba> hey
2305 2011-01-26 23:43:18 <Kiba> tomorrow
2306 2011-01-26 23:43:24 <Kiba> is a project smashdown day
2307 2011-01-26 23:43:26 skeledrew has joined
2308 2011-01-26 23:45:16 <andrew12^mac> necrodearia: figured it out
2309 2011-01-26 23:45:31 <andrew12^mac> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
2310 2011-01-26 23:46:08 <Kiba> noagendamarket: hello
2311 2011-01-26 23:46:51 <Kiba> ;;lastseen noagendamarket
2312 2011-01-26 23:46:52 <gribble> Error: "lastseen" is not a valid command.
2313 2011-01-26 23:47:02 <Kiba> ;;last seen noagendamarket
2314 2011-01-26 23:47:02 <gribble> (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2315 2011-01-26 23:47:58 * Kiba dislike no communication
2316 2011-01-26 23:48:52 <Kiba> ;;lastsee noagendamarket
2317 2011-01-26 23:48:52 <gribble> Error: "lastsee" is not a valid command.
2318 2011-01-26 23:48:58 <Kiba> god damn
2319 2011-01-26 23:49:03 <Kiba> ;;last noagendamarket
2320 2011-01-26 23:49:03 <gribble> (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2321 2011-01-26 23:49:07 <andrew12^mac> ;;seen noagendamarket
2322 2011-01-26 23:49:08 <gribble> noagendamarket was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 11 hours, 9 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <noagendamarket> yea I got that part :)
2323 2011-01-26 23:50:59 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2324 2011-01-26 23:51:03 <andrew12^mac> grr
2325 2011-01-26 23:51:08 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2326 2011-01-26 23:51:15 <Kiba> thanks andrew12^mac
2327 2011-01-26 23:51:15 <andrew12^mac> i dont understand how to construct a var_int
2328 2011-01-26 23:51:22 <andrew12^mac> Kiba: you're welcoe
2329 2011-01-26 23:51:25 <andrew12^mac> welcome*
2330 2011-01-26 23:51:40 * Kiba is waiting for noagendamarket to communicate
2331 2011-01-26 23:51:57 <Kiba> so I can get paid and stuff
2332 2011-01-26 23:52:33 lfm_ has joined
2333 2011-01-26 23:54:58 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2334 2011-01-26 23:55:01 lfm_ is now known as lfm
2335 2011-01-26 23:55:55 ApertureScience has joined