1 2011-02-03 00:00:34 satamusic_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
   2 2011-02-03 00:00:45 <andrew12^mac> b3d92e42538f7c3dc397bf97dd58fd620ed272eef5ac9e902ea34c647d3ce601 ;)
   3 2011-02-03 00:01:10 <newsham> woot.. $0.007 in a mere 5minutes!
   4 2011-02-03 00:01:24 <andrew12^mac> :D
   5 2011-02-03 00:01:36 satamusic has joined
   6 2011-02-03 00:01:36 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
   7 2011-02-03 00:01:36 satamusic has joined
   8 2011-02-03 00:03:08 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
   9 2011-02-03 00:03:58 <andrew12^mac> ;;bc,mtgox
  10 2011-02-03 00:03:58 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.76,"low":0.69,"vol":5627,"buy":0.72,"sell":0.74,"last":0.716}}
  11 2011-02-03 00:05:58 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, i actually devised an attack on the network based on exactly that
  12 2011-02-03 00:06:08 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, id test it but ya know felony and what not
  13 2011-02-03 00:06:44 <midnightmagic> felony? how so? :)
  14 2011-02-03 00:06:53 <phantomcircuit> a massive ddos attack
  15 2011-02-03 00:07:06 Kiba has joined
  16 2011-02-03 00:07:25 <midnightmagic> small transaction flood?
  17 2011-02-03 00:07:35 <andrew12^mac> ^^^
  18 2011-02-03 00:07:55 <Kiba> god damn
  19 2011-02-03 00:07:59 <Kiba> magazine's editor quit
  20 2011-02-03 00:08:04 <midnightmagic> or just overloading a node so its network traffic decreases to the point where it can no longer get timely updates, thus slowing the overall ghash of the network?
  21 2011-02-03 00:08:05 <Kiba> the editor in chief is nowhere to be found
  22 2011-02-03 00:09:16 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  23 2011-02-03 00:10:56 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, flood the nodes in the network on a rotation, it will increase the odds that a node on the network will generate a block has a network time outside the acceptable range, but will not make it difficult for the attacker to get the same information
  24 2011-02-03 00:10:59 Vladimir has joined
  25 2011-02-03 00:11:01 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, neat huh?
  26 2011-02-03 00:11:57 <midnightmagic> hrm. have to think about that. :)
  27 2011-02-03 00:12:55 <midnightmagic> kind of curious as to how much exactly the odds change for the attacker depending on network bandwidth input.
  28 2011-02-03 00:13:12 <midnightmagic> holy crap, there's another reference to Wei Dai!
  29 2011-02-03 00:13:59 <midnightmagic> i keep running into him..
  30 2011-02-03 00:14:44 <midnightmagic> i wonder what we'd find if we did a concordance comparison of wei dai's writings and satoshi's posts.
  31 2011-02-03 00:14:55 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, probably doesn't increase your odds very much, but like all things that scale a slight advantage is a huge advantage
  32 2011-02-03 00:15:12 <midnightmagic> true enough
  33 2011-02-03 00:16:02 <presence> its strange to have a "lucky" GPU
  34 2011-02-03 00:16:11 <presence> one GPU is far better at finding hashes than the other
  35 2011-02-03 00:16:17 <presence> like 3:1
  36 2011-02-03 00:16:21 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
  37 2011-02-03 00:16:24 <midnightmagic> one of my GPU keeps giving me doubled-up blocks that are within 20 seconds of one another.
  38 2011-02-03 00:16:31 <midnightmagic> but just one GPU. :)
  39 2011-02-03 00:16:43 <presence> I have that with rpcminer-cuda sometimes
  40 2011-02-03 00:18:21 <slush> midnightmagic that's not bad, because you still have one lucky GPU. Let's imagine that you have only the worse :)
  41 2011-02-03 00:19:26 <midnightmagic> that would suck. my gpus haven't given me anything in the last two days, but i'm hoping that's just because i was doing some power work so they were off for about 12 hours.
  42 2011-02-03 00:19:52 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  43 2011-02-03 00:25:31 <luke-jr> poclbm is just hanging
  44 2011-02-03 00:25:48 mtgox has joined
  45 2011-02-03 00:25:55 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  46 2011-02-03 00:26:10 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  47 2011-02-03 00:26:17 * midnightmagic high-fives mtgox.
  48 2011-02-03 00:26:41 molecular has joined
  49 2011-02-03 00:27:20 <Vladimir> yep poclbm has a nasty zombyish hanging habit m that's one of the reasons why I personally do not use it anymore
  50 2011-02-03 00:27:57 * andrew12^mac blames python
  51 2011-02-03 00:28:44 <luke-jr> …
  52 2011-02-03 00:28:51 <midnightmagic> Vladimir: what do you use instead?
  53 2011-02-03 00:28:55 <Vladimir> very difficult manage those poclbm zombies, have to basically reboot the system
  54 2011-02-03 00:29:03 <luke-jr> it doesn't look like it's doing anything
  55 2011-02-03 00:29:16 <Vladimir> proprietary stuff
  56 2011-02-03 00:29:28 <midnightmagic> how intriguingly nebulous..! :-)
  57 2011-02-03 00:29:30 <andrew12^mac> a proprietary miner?
  58 2011-02-03 00:29:53 <Vladimir> cannot comment much on that, sorry
  59 2011-02-03 00:30:06 <sipa> mrb's?
  60 2011-02-03 00:30:13 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  61 2011-02-03 00:30:16 <midnightmagic> that's okay, really none of my business anyway to be honest
  62 2011-02-03 00:30:35 <Vladimir> better
  63 2011-02-03 00:31:16 <luke-jr> …
  64 2011-02-03 00:31:20 <Vladimir> but mrb's miner is great, I've seen it in action
  65 2011-02-03 00:31:25 <luke-jr> I didn't get this far just to give up
  66 2011-02-03 00:31:37 <sipa> might you be inclined to give some numbers...?
  67 2011-02-03 00:31:45 * sipa kills a cat
  68 2011-02-03 00:32:10 <Vladimir> mrb's claimed numbers are pretty much correct
  69 2011-02-03 00:32:58 <andrew12^mac> Vladimir: "can't comment on that" pretty much means yes
  70 2011-02-03 00:33:04 <andrew12^mac> in like every situation
  71 2011-02-03 00:33:06 <andrew12^mac> heh
  72 2011-02-03 00:33:29 <sipa> of course it probably means yes, but that doesn't mean he has to confirm it :)
  73 2011-02-03 00:33:36 <andrew12^mac> indeed
  74 2011-02-03 00:33:42 <Vladimir> well... than my next few claims would be a lie would they not?
  75 2011-02-03 00:34:16 <sipa> since you've only said you've seen mrb's miner, and not that you are using or have been using it, no
  76 2011-02-03 00:34:32 <Vladimir> I said that what I use is better
  77 2011-02-03 00:34:38 <sipa> yes
  78 2011-02-03 00:34:46 <luke-jr> wtf
  79 2011-02-03 00:34:53 <luke-jr> it only works when the X server's vt is active?
  80 2011-02-03 00:34:58 <sipa> yes
  81 2011-02-03 00:35:09 <andrew12^mac> heh
  82 2011-02-03 00:35:11 <luke-jr> this is useless
  83 2011-02-03 00:35:22 <slush> Vladimir: how much better it can be, when current miners are using 99% of GPU?
  84 2011-02-03 00:35:22 <sipa> for some reason, otherwise fglrx can't talk to the card apparently
  85 2011-02-03 00:35:41 <luke-jr> why didn't someone say that before I wasted $162?
  86 2011-02-03 00:35:57 <andrew12^mac> *wasted*
  87 2011-02-03 00:36:11 <sipa> luke-jr: i use onboard video for working, while mining on radeon
  88 2011-02-03 00:36:12 dduane2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  89 2011-02-03 00:36:20 <luke-jr> sipa: that's what I'm trying to do
  90 2011-02-03 00:36:26 <luke-jr> but only one X server can be active at a time
  91 2011-02-03 00:36:30 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  92 2011-02-03 00:36:46 <sipa> what type is the onboard video?
  93 2011-02-03 00:36:47 <andrew12^mac> luke-jr: tried running the miner before you start X? or even using a different miner?
  94 2011-02-03 00:36:52 <luke-jr> Intel HD 2000
  95 2011-02-03 00:36:59 <sipa> andrew12^mac: won't work
  96 2011-02-03 00:37:12 <sipa> luke-jr: i fear it's going to be hard, in that case
  97 2011-02-03 00:37:16 <luke-jr> …
  98 2011-02-03 00:37:18 <Vladimir> poclbm uses 99% too and it is back in the dust and often zombyfied... which brings actual performance down quite a bit
  99 2011-02-03 00:37:55 <midnightmagic> X must always be running or else poclbm will never be exit'able on my machines.
 100 2011-02-03 00:38:05 <luke-jr> X is running…
 101 2011-02-03 00:38:07 <luke-jr> two Xs
 102 2011-02-03 00:38:21 <midnightmagic> only one X needs to run on one machine in my case.
 103 2011-02-03 00:39:53 <sipa> luke-jr: i think there are ways to not limit the X server to what vt the system is set to
 104 2011-02-03 00:41:09 ForceMajeure has joined
 105 2011-02-03 00:41:38 <sipa> this is very outdated i think, but at least uses that possibilty i think: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/XFree-Local-multi-user-HOWTO/index.html
 106 2011-02-03 00:42:56 kermit has joined
 107 2011-02-03 00:45:43 <andrew12^mac> huh.. i didnt know it was possble to run two Xs
 108 2011-02-03 00:45:59 mtgox has joined
 109 2011-02-03 00:46:04 <andrew12^mac> next thing you know i'll figure out how to run X under X
 110 2011-02-03 00:47:21 <andrew12^mac> in a window :p
 111 2011-02-03 00:50:24 xelister has joined
 112 2011-02-03 00:50:24 xelister has quit (Changing host)
 113 2011-02-03 00:50:24 xelister has joined
 114 2011-02-03 00:52:43 <phantomcircuit> andrew12^mac, that's easy
 115 2011-02-03 00:53:17 <phantomcircuit> andrew12^mac, Xephyr
 116 2011-02-03 00:53:47 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 117 2011-02-03 00:54:02 molecular has joined
 118 2011-02-03 00:56:09 <andrew12^mac> phantomcircuit: it was a joke :p
 119 2011-02-03 00:57:19 <phantomcircuit> andrew12^mac, i figured actually
 120 2011-02-03 01:00:23 <luke-jr> yay it's finally working
 121 2011-02-03 01:00:28 <luke-jr> 252 MH/s
 122 2011-02-03 01:00:48 ducki2p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 123 2011-02-03 01:03:26 ducki2p has joined
 124 2011-02-03 01:03:30 <EvanR> can the bitcoin gui work as a bitcoind
 125 2011-02-03 01:03:40 <EvanR> like for miners and cli commands
 126 2011-02-03 01:04:01 <ArtForz> yes
 127 2011-02-03 01:04:05 <ArtForz> -server
 128 2011-02-03 01:04:50 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 129 2011-02-03 01:05:01 DELTA9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 130 2011-02-03 01:05:13 <EvanR> by default does it accept connections from other computers
 131 2011-02-03 01:05:18 bk128 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 132 2011-02-03 01:05:26 <ArtForz> no
 133 2011-02-03 01:05:38 bk128 has joined
 134 2011-02-03 01:05:41 andrew12^mac has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 135 2011-02-03 01:05:53 <Vladimir> unless they have a tunnel to your 127.0.0.1
 136 2011-02-03 01:06:27 <Vladimir> 127.0.0.1:8332 actually
 137 2011-02-03 01:06:54 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 138 2011-02-03 01:09:52 * Kiba is going to write a story for english class
 139 2011-02-03 01:10:34 <slush> is there any reason why one of my core freeze once a few days?
 140 2011-02-03 01:10:42 <slush> I have to restart computer then...
 141 2011-02-03 01:11:06 <ArtForz> marginal overclock?
 142 2011-02-03 01:11:11 <slush> it can work at 860 MHz, but even underclocking to 845 didn't help
 143 2011-02-03 01:11:19 <ArtForz> weird
 144 2011-02-03 01:11:49 <slush> It's pretty usual that my miners are weird :-/
 145 2011-02-03 01:12:46 prax has joined
 146 2011-02-03 01:13:02 <ArtForz> I had random once-every-few-days lockups on a bunch of cores too, dropping those by 10-20MHz fixed it
 147 2011-02-03 01:13:23 <slush> ok, I'm trying 845 now
 148 2011-02-03 01:13:32 <slush> I'll tell you after week if it helped :)
 149 2011-02-03 01:13:35 mtgox has joined
 150 2011-02-03 01:15:00 <luke-jr> I'm getting more MH/s with Stream SDK than the wiki page says I should get with this card…
 151 2011-02-03 01:15:04 * luke-jr tries 2.2
 152 2011-02-03 01:15:18 <ArtForz> what card, and how much more
 153 2011-02-03 01:15:44 <luke-jr> 5850, 252 MH/s
 154 2011-02-03 01:15:52 <luke-jr> wiki says 240 MH/s
 155 2011-02-03 01:15:59 <luke-jr> or did, I'm updating it
 156 2011-02-03 01:16:09 <ArtForz> well, thats stupid
 157 2011-02-03 01:16:13 <LobsterMan> any idea why i'm getting a lot of "invalid or stale" results from m0mchil's latest miner with slush's pool? this seems to only be recent for the past few days so i guess it has to do with the new version
 158 2011-02-03 01:16:15 <luke-jr> what's stupid?
 159 2011-02-03 01:16:18 <LobsterMan> poclbm_py2exe_20110127
 160 2011-02-03 01:16:18 <ArtForz> then all the relations are off
 161 2011-02-03 01:16:44 <ArtForz> other cards scale by about the same factor
 162 2011-02-03 01:16:51 <luke-jr> ?
 163 2011-02-03 01:17:01 <slush> LobsterMan: if it corresponds with new blocks on -monitor, then it is fine
 164 2011-02-03 01:17:07 <luke-jr> 12 MH/s is huge
 165 2011-02-03 01:17:09 <ArtForz> those numbers are for a old version of my miner
 166 2011-02-03 01:17:21 <luke-jr> you tried every one of those cards⁇
 167 2011-02-03 01:17:24 <ArtForz> last version of my OCL miner got 565Mh/s on a stock 5970
 168 2011-02-03 01:17:30 <ArtForz> a bunch
 169 2011-02-03 01:17:36 <LobsterMan> slush i'm not sure, i just know that the new version of poclbm is causing more "invalid or stale" than i used to get for the old version
 170 2011-02-03 01:17:38 lfm has joined
 171 2011-02-03 01:17:42 <luke-jr> can you remember which? I added a "miner" column
 172 2011-02-03 01:18:13 <ArtForz> 4870, 5770, 5870, 5970, 6870
 173 2011-02-03 01:18:37 <slush> LobsterMan: I'm not sure if it is relevant to miner version. But before two three days I introduced rejecting stale shares. Like original bitcoind
 174 2011-02-03 01:18:50 <ArtForz> to get correct numbers for current OCL miners, just multiply 5xxx by 1.05
 175 2011-02-03 01:18:51 <slush> LobsterMan: which worker?
 176 2011-02-03 01:19:01 <LobsterMan> m0mchil's latest poclbm_py2exe_20110127
 177 2011-02-03 01:19:13 <slush> no, I think login
 178 2011-02-03 01:19:19 <LobsterMan> the old one i was using was like 20101226 or something
 179 2011-02-03 01:19:22 <LobsterMan> oh
 180 2011-02-03 01:19:34 <LobsterMan> let me see if i can figure it out
 181 2011-02-03 01:19:47 <slush> well, if you used such old version, you cut yourself a lot
 182 2011-02-03 01:19:54 <LobsterMan> they both have 7 shares
 183 2011-02-03 01:19:54 <slush> I claimed it many many times everywhere :)
 184 2011-02-03 01:19:57 <ArtForz> as it's a hardware comparison table, not a "which miner is tweaked best for what" table
 185 2011-02-03 01:22:16 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 186 2011-02-03 01:22:16 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 187 2011-02-03 01:22:23 <luke-jr> ArtForz: what is your miner called, and what is the version called that you tested those with?
 188 2011-02-03 01:22:31 <ArtForz> errr... sec
 189 2011-02-03 01:23:34 <ArtForz> that was my old miner called "clmine", didnt really have a version#
 190 2011-02-03 01:24:17 <luke-jr> which Stream SDK?
 191 2011-02-03 01:24:20 <ArtForz> 2.1
 192 2011-02-03 01:24:26 <ArtForz> cat 10.10
 193 2011-02-03 01:24:46 <luke-jr> does Cat matter?
 194 2011-02-03 01:24:50 <ArtForz> not really
 195 2011-02-03 01:25:57 molecular has joined
 196 2011-02-03 01:26:01 <luke-jr> what's the latest version with 565 called?
 197 2011-02-03 01:26:43 <ArtForz> clmine2
 198 2011-02-03 01:26:58 <luke-jr> sdk 2.1?
 199 2011-02-03 01:27:00 <ArtForz> yep
 200 2011-02-03 01:27:04 <ArtForz> and my cal miner is called... calmine
 201 2011-02-03 01:27:15 <ArtForz> 604Mh/s on stock 5970
 202 2011-02-03 01:28:06 <luke-jr> O.O
 203 2011-02-03 01:28:10 <luke-jr> is that public?
 204 2011-02-03 01:28:13 <ArtForz> nope
 205 2011-02-03 01:28:23 <luke-jr> nuts
 206 2011-02-03 01:28:44 <luke-jr> now here's something interesting: polcbm's miner shows my Sandy Bridge GPU
 207 2011-02-03 01:28:51 <luke-jr> and *appears* to be working with it
 208 2011-02-03 01:29:01 <LobsterMan> what kind of hash rate?
 209 2011-02-03 01:29:21 <luke-jr> 750 kH/s :p
 210 2011-02-03 01:29:21 <ArtForz> slooow ;)
 211 2011-02-03 01:29:33 <luke-jr> ArtForz: I don't think you expected *that* slow, did you? :p
 212 2011-02-03 01:29:41 <ArtForz> actualyl I did
 213 2011-02-03 01:29:45 <luke-jr> but is that actually using the IGP?
 214 2011-02-03 01:29:52 <necrodearia> offtopic: Is anyone experienced with using GeSHi?
 215 2011-02-03 01:29:52 <luke-jr> even without Intel supporting OpenCL at all?
 216 2011-02-03 01:29:54 <ArtForz> quite possible
 217 2011-02-03 01:30:02 <ArtForz> depends really
 218 2011-02-03 01:30:08 <ArtForz> but it's what I'd expect
 219 2011-02-03 01:32:01 <presence> one of the palit gtx460 NE5X460HF1102 get ~63.5Mhash/s
 220 2011-02-03 01:34:25 Tritonio has joined
 221 2011-02-03 01:37:17 <presence> thats with rpcminer-cuda.exe
 222 2011-02-03 01:37:31 <presence> in case anyone gives a crap (:D)
 223 2011-02-03 01:38:53 <luke-jr> btw, any idea why my Radeon shows up as "Cypress" in the miner's GPU list?
 224 2011-02-03 01:39:08 <presence> because its probably a cypress :D
 225 2011-02-03 01:39:13 <luke-jr> ⁇?
 226 2011-02-03 01:39:15 <ArtForz> because thats the chips name
 227 2011-02-03 01:39:17 <luke-jr> wtf is a cypress
 228 2011-02-03 01:39:33 <ArtForz> 5830/50/70/5970 are all cypresses
 229 2011-02-03 01:39:38 <luke-jr> codename?
 230 2011-02-03 01:39:40 <presence> its a tree in outdoors sense
 231 2011-02-03 01:39:52 <ArtForz> yup
 232 2011-02-03 01:39:53 <presence> but its the chip name in, well, yeah artfonz stated it
 233 2011-02-03 01:40:14 <ArtForz> all 5xxx chips were trees
 234 2011-02-03 01:40:47 <luke-jr> lol
 235 2011-02-03 01:41:03 <afed> yes um
 236 2011-02-03 01:41:09 <afed> is anyone at all running 69X0 cards
 237 2011-02-03 01:41:18 <ArtForz> yes, me
 238 2011-02-03 01:41:25 <presence> so does nvidia know that they are hosed yet?
 239 2011-02-03 01:41:37 <afed> ArtForz: tell me about them? what specs and have you had any trouble?
 240 2011-02-03 01:41:41 <ArtForz> 6870+6970 using sdk 2.3 and cat 10.12
 241 2011-02-03 01:41:50 <afed> ic
 242 2011-02-03 01:42:10 <afed> i have 6950 cards
 243 2011-02-03 01:42:13 <ArtForz> = sucky OCL miner performance, multiGPU total disaster
 244 2011-02-03 01:42:22 <afed> bad eh?
 245 2011-02-03 01:42:29 <presence> better than nvidia :D
 246 2011-02-03 01:42:29 <afed> i can't make them run stable
 247 2011-02-03 01:42:39 <afed> i have the new 11.x driver on win7
 248 2011-02-03 01:43:05 <afed> i am probably going to sell them and buy 5870 cards
 249 2011-02-03 01:43:09 <afed> since they are faster and $220
 250 2011-02-03 01:43:32 <afed> i really just need the box to run and generate coins, i no longer care about tinkering
 251 2011-02-03 01:43:33 <molecular> ArtForz, clmine2, calminer? never heard. where can I find these?
 252 2011-02-03 01:43:38 <ArtForz> nowhere
 253 2011-02-03 01:43:51 <molecular> :)
 254 2011-02-03 01:43:55 <ArtForz> all of em are private
 255 2011-02-03 01:43:58 <presence> I dont think he released them
 256 2011-02-03 01:44:05 <afed> heh
 257 2011-02-03 01:44:10 <afed> as in, he's selling them for bitcoins?
 258 2011-02-03 01:44:13 <lfm> cl would be from opencl I assume
 259 2011-02-03 01:44:14 <ArtForz> well, I did publish the OCL kernels of both CL miners
 260 2011-02-03 01:44:21 <afed> and they're 5000 khash faster than poclbm?
 261 2011-02-03 01:44:32 <presence> jesus this trimble thunderbolts 10mhz output is a full .625 hz off
 262 2011-02-03 01:44:56 <lfm> thats prolly in spec
 263 2011-02-03 01:44:58 <afed> presence: hhahaha
 264 2011-02-03 01:45:16 <presence> its not when it is supposed to be a time source
 265 2011-02-03 01:45:26 <afed> presence: are you just a time nut as well as a bitcoiner, or does timekeeping give some advantage to mining?
 266 2011-02-03 01:45:36 <lfm> ptrdrnce compared to what? PC clock?
 267 2011-02-03 01:45:36 <presence> supposed to be accurate to e-9 over long periods
 268 2011-02-03 01:45:41 <presence> Im a timenut too
 269 2011-02-03 01:45:58 <afed> nice
 270 2011-02-03 01:46:01 <presence> compared to 10Mhz coming out of a hp 5071A cesium reference
 271 2011-02-03 01:46:19 <ArtForz> yeah, thats about 6e-8, not really great
 272 2011-02-03 01:46:24 <lfm> hehe well you might also consider the price difference
 273 2011-02-03 01:46:59 <presence> yeah but lots of other GPSDOs are better
 274 2011-02-03 01:47:05 <presence> and about the same price point
 275 2011-02-03 01:47:17 <ArtForz> you got a cesium reference? *envy*
 276 2011-02-03 01:47:29 <ArtForz> only got 2 rubidium references here
 277 2011-02-03 01:47:38 <lfm> calibrate prolly only goes to 1hz
 278 2011-02-03 01:48:13 <afed> heh i'm satisfied with a local ntp box informed by a gps receiver
 279 2011-02-03 01:48:55 <lfm> hehe Im satisifed with random pool.ntp.org server
 280 2011-02-03 01:49:36 <presence> I have 2 cesiums and 1 rubidium
 281 2011-02-03 01:49:37 <molecular> ArtForz, is the OCL kernel you published the one Diablo and m0m integrated into their miners or a different one?
 282 2011-02-03 01:49:40 <presence> and a bunch of gpsdos
 283 2011-02-03 01:49:45 <ArtForz> same one
 284 2011-02-03 01:49:58 <ArtForz> they use both quite heavily modified versions though
 285 2011-02-03 01:50:24 <luke-jr> afed: I don't see any cards on there that contrast poclbm and clmine
 286 2011-02-03 01:51:30 <afed> luke-jr: good to know
 287 2011-02-03 01:51:45 <afed> if it was a 50% improvement i'd pay for it
 288 2011-02-03 01:51:55 <luke-jr> afed: as in, there's no comparison done
 289 2011-02-03 01:52:10 <presence> timekeeping doesnt really help mining
 290 2011-02-03 01:52:18 <molecular> ArtForz, then there must be something else you do better, because I only get about 560 Mh/s on my 5970 @725/725 with Diablo's miner
 291 2011-02-03 01:52:20 <luke-jr> however, I would be glad to compare for you if you send me a 5970 ;p
 292 2011-02-03 01:52:22 <presence> Im a global network guy and it matters significantly there
 293 2011-02-03 01:52:29 sabalaba has joined
 294 2011-02-03 01:52:56 <afed> i'll send you a pair of 6950 cards for 600 bitcoins
 295 2011-02-03 01:53:10 <luke-jr> lol
 296 2011-02-03 01:54:23 * Kiba is currently mad because the editor-in-chief failed to do the simplest job
 297 2011-02-03 01:54:27 <luke-jr> wait, really?
 298 2011-02-03 01:54:31 <luke-jr> 6950 isn't charted at all
 299 2011-02-03 01:56:53 Tritonio_Droid has joined
 300 2011-02-03 01:58:05 <EvanR> molecular: i had the same effect
 301 2011-02-03 01:58:14 <EvanR> i switched to the python miner
 302 2011-02-03 01:58:26 <molecular> EvanR, which python miner?
 303 2011-02-03 01:58:41 <EvanR> poc something
 304 2011-02-03 01:58:44 <EvanR> tab complete that
 305 2011-02-03 01:58:47 <molecular> pocblm
 306 2011-02-03 01:58:47 <ArtForz> m0s
 307 2011-02-03 01:59:01 <molecular> that's m0mchills, yeah
 308 2011-02-03 01:59:18 <molecular> haven't really tried that in a while...
 309 2011-02-03 01:59:40 <molecular> I've been into Diablo's code for a while, don't see what he might be doing inefficiently...
 310 2011-02-03 01:59:52 <ArtForz> the kernel I pastebinned and m0s and diablos modified versions are really quite different
 311 2011-02-03 02:00:07 Tritonio_Droid has quit (Client Quit)
 312 2011-02-03 02:00:25 ducki2p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 313 2011-02-03 02:00:30 <molecular> really? 'll have to compare them..
 314 2011-02-03 02:00:44 <molecular> I figured it was only different arg-passing
 315 2011-02-03 02:01:05 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 316 2011-02-03 02:01:09 <Ljrn900> ugh
 317 2011-02-03 02:01:14 <Ljrn900> my pc is hanging
 318 2011-02-03 02:01:52 Tritonio_Droid has joined
 319 2011-02-03 02:04:01 ducki2p has joined
 320 2011-02-03 02:06:31 <molecular> EvanR, ArtForz well, pocblm does 272Mh/s (one one core), that would make 545Mh/s on both
 321 2011-02-03 02:06:43 luke-jr has joined
 322 2011-02-03 02:08:08 <lfm> Ljrn900: thats terrible!
 323 2011-02-03 02:09:46 <luke-jr> yes
 324 2011-02-03 02:11:40 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 325 2011-02-03 02:17:28 <presence> ljrn: power or ram
 326 2011-02-03 02:19:39 OneFixt_ has joined
 327 2011-02-03 02:19:40 OneFixt has quit (Disconnected by services)
 328 2011-02-03 02:19:41 <luke-jr> presence: ⁇?
 329 2011-02-03 02:19:43 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
 330 2011-02-03 02:19:46 <luke-jr> my display locked up
 331 2011-02-03 02:19:46 OneFixt has quit (Changing host)
 332 2011-02-03 02:19:46 OneFixt has joined
 333 2011-02-03 02:20:11 <luke-jr> Clocksource tsc unstable (delta = -60133896280 ns)
 334 2011-02-03 02:21:50 <luke-jr> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/331410/
 335 2011-02-03 02:22:20 andrew12 has joined
 336 2011-02-03 02:22:33 Tritonio_Droid has quit (Quit: Bye)
 337 2011-02-03 02:23:15 CyanDynamo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 338 2011-02-03 02:24:12 <ArtForz> looks like a driver conflict
 339 2011-02-03 02:25:45 <luke-jr> ☹
 340 2011-02-03 02:25:58 <andrew12> <box>
 341 2011-02-03 02:26:01 <luke-jr> guess I can hope maybe it was triggered by using OpenCL miner on Intel GPU that doesn't support OpenCL…
 342 2011-02-03 02:26:07 <luke-jr> andrew12: fix your PC then
 343 2011-02-03 02:26:42 <ArtForz> looks like some oops in i915 driver
 344 2011-02-03 02:27:04 <andrew12> luke-jr: too lazy
 345 2011-02-03 02:27:36 <presence> i915 ugh
 346 2011-02-03 02:27:39 <presence> complete CRAP
 347 2011-02-03 02:31:11 <luke-jr> ArtForz: yeah
 348 2011-02-03 02:31:19 <luke-jr> presence: it's an i915 driver, not i915 chipset
 349 2011-02-03 02:31:55 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 350 2011-02-03 02:32:16 <luke-jr> anyhow, now I just need to do /etc/init.d/lxc.amd start and my system will GPUmine
 351 2011-02-03 02:33:23 Guest37890 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 352 2011-02-03 02:35:26 james has joined
 353 2011-02-03 02:35:52 james is now known as Guest79064
 354 2011-02-03 02:42:06 CyanDynamo has joined
 355 2011-02-03 02:42:21 <luke-jr> so anyhow
 356 2011-02-03 02:42:34  is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.251.224.113|Netsniper
 357 2011-02-03 02:43:17 <luke-jr> let me get this straight: if my miner submits the proof-of-work via my own RPC client instead of slush's, he'd still get the generation+fees because it's inherent in the solution (and it might screw up the reward distribution)? :P
 358 2011-02-03 02:45:00 <luke-jr> any way to be sure the Radeon's fans are running?
 359 2011-02-03 02:45:53 darrelize has joined
 360 2011-02-03 02:49:13 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 257000
 361 2011-02-03 02:49:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 257000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 4 days, 6 hours, 11 minutes, and 11 seconds
 362 2011-02-03 02:50:10 darrelize has left ()
 363 2011-02-03 02:51:52 <luke-jr> is poclbm supposed to use 100% CPU?
 364 2011-02-03 02:52:28 <presence> it didnt on my box
 365 2011-02-03 02:52:45 <luke-jr> :/
 366 2011-02-03 02:52:51 <luke-jr> maybe -f 1?
 367 2011-02-03 02:53:12 <presence> I ran it stock
 368 2011-02-03 02:57:22 <andrew12> wow, xz is awesome
 369 2011-02-03 02:57:41 <andrew12> compressed my entire supybot folder (165M) to 21.5M
 370 2011-02-03 02:58:03 <ArtForz> sdk2.1 ?
 371 2011-02-03 03:01:51 <presence> which ati drivers should I prep for opencl mining?
 372 2011-02-03 03:09:07 <lfm> drivers 10-11 or 10-12 most people find works best
 373 2011-02-03 03:09:39 <lfm> for ati
 374 2011-02-03 03:13:09 <andrew12> wow
 375 2011-02-03 03:13:21 <andrew12> i closed bitcoin and my download went from 40k/s to 200k/s
 376 2011-02-03 03:13:35 <andrew12> ^- the reason p2p isn't necessarily good
 377 2011-02-03 03:13:44 <andrew12> or maybe
 378 2011-02-03 03:13:51 <andrew12> ^- the reason dsl is very bad
 379 2011-02-03 03:14:42 <lfm> was bitcoin downloading block chain?
 380 2011-02-03 03:15:18 <andrew12> no
 381 2011-02-03 03:15:26 <andrew12> whenever i have p2p stuff running it's like that
 382 2011-02-03 03:15:35 <andrew12> whether its bitcoin, bittorrent, i2p, tor...
 383 2011-02-03 03:15:41 <lfm> I have several bitcoin running and can hardly see any effect on dsl downloads
 384 2011-02-03 03:15:49 <devrandom> luke-jr - are you also getting 100% cpu?  I'm on ubuntu 10.10 and getting 100% system time on two cores (java + xorg)
 385 2011-02-03 03:16:06 <luke-jr> devrandom: just Python is 100% CPU
 386 2011-02-03 03:16:07 <andrew12> lfm: well it could also be because of my network setup
 387 2011-02-03 03:16:27 <lfm> andrew12: what is your isp? are they throttling you?
 388 2011-02-03 03:16:30 <andrew12> though bitcoin's mainly just idle connections
 389 2011-02-03 03:16:30 <devrandom> yes, with the python client I get 100% system on the python process
 390 2011-02-03 03:16:44 <andrew12> lfm: wouldn't make any sense since i gain back all the speed right after i close bitcoin
 391 2011-02-03 03:16:44 <andrew12> hmm
 392 2011-02-03 03:16:47 <devrandom> luke-jr - is it system for you too?
 393 2011-02-03 03:16:51 <andrew12> i should fiddle with qos
 394 2011-02-03 03:17:05 <luke-jr> devrandom: I think so?
 395 2011-02-03 03:17:17 <luke-jr> andrew12: QoS doesn't work with p2p :p
 396 2011-02-03 03:17:19 <devrandom> what os are you running?
 397 2011-02-03 03:17:28 <luke-jr> andrew12: unless you set your cap to like 50% your real limit
 398 2011-02-03 03:17:32 <devrandom> cat /etc/issue
 399 2011-02-03 03:17:33 <luke-jr> devrandom: Gentoo
 400 2011-02-03 03:17:48 <devrandom> kernel?
 401 2011-02-03 03:17:59 <luke-jr> 2.6.27 is the only kernel that can boot me
 402 2011-02-03 03:18:44 <devrandom> 2.6.35-25 on ubuntu 10.10 here
 403 2011-02-03 03:18:46 <devrandom> sigh...
 404 2011-02-03 03:18:54 <luke-jr> 2.6.37*
 405 2011-02-03 03:19:02 <devrandom> ah
 406 2011-02-03 03:19:04 <ArtForz> either a crappy router or isp throttling on "p2p-y" activity
 407 2011-02-03 03:19:23 <devrandom> hm... maybe something funny about those kernels
 408 2011-02-03 03:19:43 <devrandom> ArtForz - you are not experiencing the 100% system issue, right?
 409 2011-02-03 03:19:45 <ArtForz> use. sdk. 2.1.
 410 2011-02-03 03:19:52 <luke-jr> ArtForz: not available
 411 2011-02-03 03:19:55 <ArtForz> 2.2 and 2.3 use 100% cpu
 412 2011-02-03 03:20:00 <luke-jr> sigh
 413 2011-02-03 03:20:10 <devrandom> ah
 414 2011-02-03 03:20:18 <devrandom> okay, will try that, thanks
 415 2011-02-03 03:20:35 andrew12_ has joined
 416 2011-02-03 03:20:57 andrew12\ has joined
 417 2011-02-03 03:21:03 <andrew12\> and of course get disconnected a few times
 418 2011-02-03 03:21:46 skeledrew1 has joined
 419 2011-02-03 03:23:21 andrew12 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 420 2011-02-03 03:24:11 <andrew12\> why does it use stuff like "Exempt", "Premium", "Express", "Standard", "Bulk" instead of just numbers?
 421 2011-02-03 03:24:26 <andrew12\> i want it to be like nice
 422 2011-02-03 03:24:38 <andrew12\> so i can say bitcoin's priority is -4 but http is 4 or something
 423 2011-02-03 03:24:43 andrew12\ is now known as andrew12
 424 2011-02-03 03:24:56 andrew12 has quit (Changing host)
 425 2011-02-03 03:24:56 andrew12 has joined
 426 2011-02-03 03:25:28 andrew12_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 427 2011-02-03 03:25:39 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 428 2011-02-03 03:28:56 andrew12 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 429 2011-02-03 03:30:44 DiabloD3 has joined
 430 2011-02-03 03:31:37 skeledrew has joined
 431 2011-02-03 03:32:36 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 432 2011-02-03 03:34:24 <necrodearia> Any volunteers to examine http://witcoin.com:2982 and provide feedback?
 433 2011-02-03 03:34:47 <necrodearia> The colors/design isn't important for now.
 434 2011-02-03 03:36:36 andrew12 has joined
 435 2011-02-03 03:38:31 <presence> so with ati on windows 7 64, you should install the 11,1 or something earlier?
 436 2011-02-03 03:39:30 <lfm> I think some people are reporting problems with 11.1, not sure if its in win7
 437 2011-02-03 03:41:40 <luke-jr> you should install Linux
 438 2011-02-03 03:42:30 <andrew12> wow
 439 2011-02-03 03:42:32 <andrew12> qos works
 440 2011-02-03 03:42:33 <andrew12> lol
 441 2011-02-03 03:42:34 noagendamarket has joined
 442 2011-02-03 03:42:49 <andrew12> made http have highest priority and now i got 300kb/s
 443 2011-02-03 03:43:14 <luke-jr> …
 444 2011-02-03 03:43:24 <luke-jr> what router is this?
 445 2011-02-03 03:43:32 <andrew12> wrt320n with dd-wrt
 446 2011-02-03 03:44:05 <presence> cant came on linux
 447 2011-02-03 03:44:07 <presence> game
 448 2011-02-03 03:44:21 <presence> I have openbsd and linux and other stuff...but no decent cards
 449 2011-02-03 03:44:32 gejohn has joined
 450 2011-02-03 03:48:08 <luke-jr> andrew12: no way. DD-Wrt's QoS *never* works.
 451 2011-02-03 03:48:12 <luke-jr> presence: nonsense
 452 2011-02-03 03:48:17 <luke-jr> all the best games run best on Linux
 453 2011-02-03 03:48:26 <andrew12> luke-jr: it works fine here :P
 454 2011-02-03 03:49:00 <luke-jr> ArtForz: does 2.01 work?
 455 2011-02-03 03:49:40 <ArtForz> no clue
 456 2011-02-03 03:51:50 <luke-jr> my system is acting like it's about to hang again :x
 457 2011-02-03 03:51:58 <luke-jr> random ms lockups
 458 2011-02-03 03:54:30 fabianhjr has joined
 459 2011-02-03 03:55:00 <fabianhjr> The Bitcoin Times had been published: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2355.msg43883#msg43883
 460 2011-02-03 03:59:33 devrandom1 has joined
 461 2011-02-03 03:59:55 fabianhjr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 462 2011-02-03 04:04:24 brunner has joined
 463 2011-02-03 04:06:46 <luke-jr> FWIW, Stream 2.01 doesn't support OpenCL 1.1 and thus fails to work at all :p
 464 2011-02-03 04:10:17 <ArtForz> boo
 465 2011-02-03 04:10:43 <luke-jr> I tried copying the 2.2 ebuild to 2.1
 466 2011-02-03 04:10:48 <luke-jr> will report back
 467 2011-02-03 04:12:14 * Kiba decides fabianjhr sucks as an editor in chief
 468 2011-02-03 04:12:43 <luke-jr> Kiba: opening a competing publication?
 469 2011-02-03 04:13:42 <Kiba> luke-jr: quite possibly
 470 2011-02-03 04:14:14 <Kiba> BTW, I wrote 5 articles for his magazine over ALL THE ISSUES that been published
 471 2011-02-03 04:14:37 <luke-jr> bah ODT
 472 2011-02-03 04:14:43 <luke-jr> I won't be reading this edition I guess
 473 2011-02-03 04:14:55 <Kiba> 1 for issue 0, 3 for issue 1, and 1 for issue 2
 474 2011-02-03 04:15:11 <Kiba> so he lost quite possibly his most valuable writer so far
 475 2011-02-03 04:16:21 <Kiba> but fabianjhr's issue is that he just doesn't communicate in a timely manner or tell us what's going on.
 476 2011-02-03 04:16:31 <Kiba> plus, he only packages the content
 477 2011-02-03 04:16:44 <Kiba> wrote one article in issue 1. That's it.
 478 2011-02-03 04:16:47 <presence> one article?
 479 2011-02-03 04:17:18 <nanotube> Kiba: fork it! :)
 480 2011-02-03 04:18:03 <doublec> publishing once a week seems ambitious
 481 2011-02-03 04:18:05 <Kiba> how pathetic do you have to be to be reduced to packaging the content?
 482 2011-02-03 04:18:18 <Kiba> doublec: hey, I managed one article a week at the very least
 483 2011-02-03 04:18:56 <doublec> yes but I suspect you'd run out of articles over the course of a couple of months
 484 2011-02-03 04:19:11 * Kiba shrugs
 485 2011-02-03 04:19:22 <Cusipzzz> Kiba: fcked up my ad, too
 486 2011-02-03 04:19:26 <Cusipzzz> but no big deal
 487 2011-02-03 04:19:43 <Kiba> I didn't manage the ads. That was supposed to be Chris' job.
 488 2011-02-03 04:19:55 <Kiba> but he quit. Lame.
 489 2011-02-03 04:20:02 <Kiba> well, I quit too.
 490 2011-02-03 04:20:12 <luke-jr> WTF
 491 2011-02-03 04:20:19 <luke-jr> ArtForz: get this, 2.1 doesn't work
 492 2011-02-03 04:20:26 <presence> just now :D
 493 2011-02-03 04:20:36 <Cusipzzz> lol
 494 2011-02-03 04:20:51 * Kiba is wondering if Atlas will be working on a new, rival publication
 495 2011-02-03 04:20:55 <luke-jr> I mean, it installs
 496 2011-02-03 04:21:00 <luke-jr> just has the OPENCL_1.1 error
 497 2011-02-03 04:21:40 <luke-jr> ImportError: /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/pyopencl/_cl.so: undefined symbol: clEnqueueReadBufferRect
 498 2011-02-03 04:21:46 <luke-jr> that's after I rebuilt pyopencl with it
 499 2011-02-03 04:22:55 Necr0s has joined
 500 2011-02-03 04:23:06 purpleposeidon has quit (Quit: you know stuff)
 501 2011-02-03 04:23:21 purpleposeidon has joined
 502 2011-02-03 04:23:44 purpleposeidon has quit (Client Quit)
 503 2011-02-03 04:24:09 purpleposeidon has joined
 504 2011-02-03 04:24:21 <Cusipzzz> Kiba: well i'm done with all of ya, but gl with your rival mag :)
 505 2011-02-03 04:25:19 <Kiba> Cusipzzz: I'll give you 3 issue ads deal ;P
 506 2011-02-03 04:26:34 <luke-jr> ok, fixed the /usr/include/CL symlink, rebuilt pyopencl, now it works
 507 2011-02-03 04:26:36 <Cusipzzz> well, lets see, the formatting is fucked up, there are 2 paragraphs of text missing, and it's not a page. lol..
 508 2011-02-03 04:27:05 <Cusipzzz> and nobody is goin to mediafire to get it...other than that, i'm happy
 509 2011-02-03 04:27:09 <luke-jr> Kiba: I'd do his first ad gratis just to show you can do it right
 510 2011-02-03 04:27:16 <Kiba> Cusipzzz: he could just use bitcoinservice.co.uk
 511 2011-02-03 04:27:22 <Kiba> or even upload it to the forum :(
 512 2011-02-03 04:27:34 <Kiba> luke-jr: do his first what?
 513 2011-02-03 04:27:40 <luke-jr> ad
 514 2011-02-03 04:27:46 <Kiba> for who?
 515 2011-02-03 04:27:47 <Kiba> me?
 516 2011-02-03 04:27:48 <Cusipzzz> nah, don't worry about it, i know it wasnt your fck up
 517 2011-02-03 04:27:48 <nanotube> in your new fork mag
 518 2011-02-03 04:28:13 <Kiba> well, I am waiting to see if Atlas approve of the partnership
 519 2011-02-03 04:28:36 <Kiba> than it's off to writing articles for the next issue
 520 2011-02-03 04:29:04 <luke-jr> someone should do an article on how diverse the BitCoin community is, and how we all have different goals (eg, Tonal) for the same concept
 521 2011-02-03 04:29:07 <luke-jr> :P
 522 2011-02-03 04:30:21 <Cusipzzz> lol
 523 2011-02-03 04:30:43 DiabloD3 is now known as Diablo-D3
 524 2011-02-03 04:30:48 <Cusipzzz> if there is an article on Tonal, you couldn't pay me to put my ad in :P
 525 2011-02-03 04:30:54 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: fail
 526 2011-02-03 04:30:58 <Cusipzzz> lol
 527 2011-02-03 04:31:11 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
 528 2011-02-03 04:31:11 noagendamarket has joined
 529 2011-02-03 04:31:32 <luke-jr> maybe 'bigot' is a better word :P
 530 2011-02-03 04:31:44 <doublec> I don't think tonal is obscure enough for bitcoin. We should also translate it into lojban to ensure maximal chance of being hard to pick up.
 531 2011-02-03 04:31:45 <Cusipzzz> hahah
 532 2011-02-03 04:31:59 <Cusipzzz> doublec: agree...maybe assyrian as well
 533 2011-02-03 04:32:03 <presence> why not publish it in sha hashes
 534 2011-02-03 04:32:05 <Diablo-D3> ancient babylonian
 535 2011-02-03 04:32:07 <doublec> hahaha
 536 2011-02-03 04:32:16 <Cusipzzz> hierglyphics!
 537 2011-02-03 04:32:37 * luke-jr wonders when Tonal passed Lojban in non-obscurityness
 538 2011-02-03 04:32:48 <Cusipzzz> i'd like to send a bird, a snake and a fraction of the pyramid w/the eye in it
 539 2011-02-03 04:32:49 <Cusipzzz> !
 540 2011-02-03 04:32:53 <Diablo-D3> a rare portugese dialect spoken by "lost" amazonian tribes
 541 2011-02-03 04:32:54 <Cusipzzz> via JSON
 542 2011-02-03 04:33:08 <Diablo-D3> Cusipzzz: the all seeing eye
 543 2011-02-03 04:33:12 <Diablo-D3> aka Ra
 544 2011-02-03 04:33:24 <Cusipzzz> that could be the fractions
 545 2011-02-03 04:33:38 <luke-jr> I bet Unicode supports those
 546 2011-02-03 04:33:41 <Diablo-D3> btw iirc
 547 2011-02-03 04:33:46 <Diablo-D3> there is that in unicode
 548 2011-02-03 04:33:50 <luke-jr> lol
 549 2011-02-03 04:34:41 <Cusipzzz> easy then. just don't store them as floats, and we're in business
 550 2011-02-03 04:35:37 <doublec> a while back in the lojban list someone was pushing for hexadecimal to be used in the number system
 551 2011-02-03 04:35:42 <doublec> it wasn't you was it luke-jr?
 552 2011-02-03 04:35:58 <luke-jr> doublec: no, I was only pushing for Tonal inside Lojban on IRC
 553 2011-02-03 04:36:12 <luke-jr> IIRC, I was told Lojban already has a native base 16 language
 554 2011-02-03 04:36:46 <luke-jr> also that the Tonal digit pronunciations were inherently incompatible with Lojban
 555 2011-02-03 04:36:51 <Cusipzzz> we can use the klingon number system. might pick up the wil wheaton fanboys
 556 2011-02-03 04:40:52 <doublec> luke-jr: lojban does have words for the hexidecimal digits but that's about the extent of things I believe
 557 2011-02-03 04:42:37 <luke-jr> doublec: they lied to me⁈⁈ :p
 558 2011-02-03 04:43:46 <doublec> the hexadecimal debate was long and arduous. They probably didn't want to revive it :)
 559 2011-02-03 04:44:52 * Kiba considers ordering a VPS
 560 2011-02-03 04:45:01 <Kiba> I have 700 + BTC
 561 2011-02-03 04:45:17 <Kiba> so 172.49 BTC will be a piece of cake
 562 2011-02-03 04:45:31 <luke-jr> that's a lot for a VPS
 563 2011-02-03 04:45:41 <luke-jr> http://lightfoot.dashjr.org/?page=vps&currency=BTC
 564 2011-02-03 04:45:43 <doublec> that's a lot for cake too
 565 2011-02-03 04:45:44 <Cusipzzz> lol, more than a month i trust
 566 2011-02-03 04:46:14 <Kiba> luke-jr: that's for six month
 567 2011-02-03 04:46:36 <luke-jr> ok, that's about the same as my prices then
 568 2011-02-03 04:46:45 <luke-jr> btw, I had to open a calculator to do 172/6
 569 2011-02-03 04:47:02 <Cusipzzz> lol
 570 2011-02-03 04:47:03 <doublec> how much easier would it have been to do tonally
 571 2011-02-03 04:47:12 <luke-jr> if we were using tonal, I could have just moved the decimal point and *2 :p
 572 2011-02-03 04:47:17 <Cusipzzz> in kligon it's pretty easy too
 573 2011-02-03 04:47:23 <Cusipzzz> klingon*
 574 2011-02-03 04:47:36 <luke-jr> tonal point*
 575 2011-02-03 04:47:38 <doublec> in klingon you just kill the person asking?
 576 2011-02-03 04:47:47 <Cusipzzz> and take their coins!
 577 2011-02-03 04:47:49 <Cusipzzz> :)
 578 2011-02-03 04:47:50 <doublec> hehe
 579 2011-02-03 04:48:14 <luke-jr> doublec: so, you tell me
 580 2011-02-03 04:48:27 <luke-jr> how much easier is double and move the point, than opening a calculator? :p
 581 2011-02-03 04:48:37 <Kiba> https://www.kalyhost.com/vps.html
 582 2011-02-03 04:48:48 <doublec> I doubt I cound double a hexadecimal number in my head
 583 2011-02-03 04:48:59 <doublec> I'd definitely need a calculator
 584 2011-02-03 04:49:20 <luke-jr> doublec: for a fair comparison, pretend you were doubling+moving in decimal
 585 2011-02-03 04:49:49 <luke-jr> Kiba: but I accept BTC :P
 586 2011-02-03 04:50:08 <Cusipzzz> kalyhost takes btc
 587 2011-02-03 04:50:11 <luke-jr> Kiba: and I'll give you half off :P
 588 2011-02-03 04:50:21 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: they don't prominently show BTC prices
 589 2011-02-03 04:50:31 <Kiba> for the same everything, luke-jr ?
 590 2011-02-03 04:50:37 <Cusipzzz> sure they do, select btc
 591 2011-02-03 04:50:56 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: there's nowhere to select it
 592 2011-02-03 04:51:08 <Kiba> 512 MB of ram, daily backup, 20 GB, etc
 593 2011-02-03 04:51:17 <luke-jr> Kiba: half of *my* prices :P
 594 2011-02-03 04:51:29 <Cusipzzz> um, at the top, where it says PAY IN: xxx - you can select BTC
 595 2011-02-03 04:51:34 <Cusipzzz> lol
 596 2011-02-03 04:51:40 <luke-jr> that'd be like 93 BTC * 50%
 597 2011-02-03 04:51:40 * Kiba don't know
 598 2011-02-03 04:51:52 <doublec> hmm. i can't get the 'move the decimal point' and double to work
 599 2011-02-03 04:51:54 <Kiba> for six month?
 600 2011-02-03 04:51:59 <luke-jr> Cusipzzz: didn't see it
 601 2011-02-03 04:52:03 <luke-jr> Kiba: per month :p
 602 2011-02-03 04:52:16 <Kiba> hmm. No.
 603 2011-02-03 04:52:17 <doublec> so 172 is AC in hex. move the decimal point = A.C?
 604 2011-02-03 04:52:35 <luke-jr> doublec: just do it in decimal
 605 2011-02-03 04:52:38 <presence> DEAD:BEEF:CAFE
 606 2011-02-03 04:52:38 <luke-jr> you're used to decimal
 607 2011-02-03 04:52:50 <Kiba> it have to be cheaper than kalyhost but just as good
 608 2011-02-03 04:53:07 <luke-jr> Kiba: sorry, I can't operate at a loss :P
 609 2011-02-03 04:53:14 <luke-jr> presence: DEAD:BEEF:CAFE:F00D
 610 2011-02-03 04:53:20 <Kiba> whatever
 611 2011-02-03 04:53:29 <luke-jr> I don't oversell my resources.
 612 2011-02-03 04:54:41 <Kiba> you don't want my bitcoin at what you're selling
 613 2011-02-03 04:55:07 <luke-jr> oh well
 614 2011-02-03 04:56:00 <Kiba> look like I have one month ago
 615 2011-02-03 04:56:11 <Kiba> to go before my hosting expire with dreamhost
 616 2011-02-03 04:56:18 <Kiba> than I'll bail out to a bitcoin VPS
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 628 2011-02-03 05:51:22 <welterde> luke-jr: what kind of hardware are you hosting on?
 629 2011-02-03 05:51:38 <luke-jr> welterde: Core2Quad
 630 2011-02-03 05:52:12 <luke-jr> or Celeron if you prefer that for some reason :p
 631 2011-02-03 05:52:24 <welterde> luke-jr: with how much ram per server? dedicated server or colocation?
 632 2011-02-03 05:52:40 <luke-jr> welterde: dedicated; colo costs more :x
 633 2011-02-03 05:52:56 <luke-jr> welterde: C2Q has 8 GB, Celeron has 512 MB
 634 2011-02-03 05:53:08 <luke-jr> the latter is mainly just for the Armagetron hosting tbh
 635 2011-02-03 05:53:19 <luke-jr> but if someone really wants the location for a small VPS, i can oblige :P
 636 2011-02-03 05:54:26 <welterde> luke-jr: I am gonna buy a server for ~2kEUR later this year and put it into colocation.. even the cheapest dedicated server can't compete with that..
 637 2011-02-03 05:54:49 <luke-jr> welterde: colocation is $50/mo at least
 638 2011-02-03 05:54:58 <luke-jr> the Celeron only costs me $30/mo :p
 639 2011-02-03 05:55:02 <welterde> luke-jr: sounds reasonable
 640 2011-02-03 05:55:37 <welterde> luke-jr: with colocation you can put way more ram/hdd into the server.. our server will have 32GB of ram then..
 641 2011-02-03 05:56:00 <luke-jr> welterde: this is true also.
 642 2011-02-03 05:56:14 <luke-jr> unfortunately, little me is too small to afford such a huge server :P
 643 2011-02-03 05:56:32 <welterde> luke-jr: I bet right now you are larger than we are :P
 644 2011-02-03 05:56:58 <luke-jr> welterde: but you apparently have financing :p
 645 2011-02-03 05:57:29 <welterde> luke-jr: true
 646 2011-02-03 05:58:03 <welterde> luke-jr: but even a cheaper server should come out cheaper than your dedicated server..
 647 2011-02-03 05:58:32 <luke-jr> welterde: not the Celeron…
 648 2011-02-03 05:58:57 <luke-jr> so long as the colo costs $50+/mo, it can never beat one that costs $30/mo without any up-front costs :p
 649 2011-02-03 05:59:23 <welterde> luke-jr: how much does your other server cost?
 650 2011-02-03 06:00:34 <luke-jr> $65/mo, plus I paid to add a bunch of hardware up-front
 651 2011-02-03 06:00:40 <luke-jr> mainly memory IIRC
 652 2011-02-03 06:00:55 <luke-jr> so it's kinda hybrid dedi/colo
 653 2011-02-03 06:01:16 <luke-jr> but I get the benefit of dedi that I don't pay extra to replace hardware :p
 654 2011-02-03 06:01:27 <welterde> luke-jr: ovh offers kind of dedicated servers for cheaper than 30$ btw.
 655 2011-02-03 06:01:35 <luke-jr> "kind of"
 656 2011-02-03 06:01:41 <luke-jr> I'd love to offer those
 657 2011-02-03 06:01:48 <luke-jr> but it seems like custom hardware
 658 2011-02-03 06:02:12 <welterde> luke-jr: dedicated hardware except for hard disk
 659 2011-02-03 06:02:19 <welterde> which is connected via iSCSI
 660 2011-02-03 06:03:03 <luke-jr> I know
 661 2011-02-03 06:03:43 <welterde> luke-jr: ah.. already know ovh?
 662 2011-02-03 06:03:58 <luke-jr> yes
 663 2011-02-03 06:04:09 <welterde> well.. I don't think that's custom hardware..
 664 2011-02-03 06:04:21 <welterde> probably just mainboards stacked google style
 665 2011-02-03 06:07:12 <luke-jr> …
 666 2011-02-03 06:07:28 <luke-jr> What I wanted certainly would be :P
 667 2011-02-03 06:07:38 <luke-jr> I wanted to throw like 256 ARM systems into a 1U box
 668 2011-02-03 06:08:00 <welterde> hehe..
 669 2011-02-03 06:08:23 <welterde> btw.. what does MOO under Managed hosting mean? MUD object oriented?
 670 2011-02-03 06:08:28 <luke-jr> yes
 671 2011-02-03 06:08:45 <luke-jr> means I help you with MOO-related stuff :p
 672 2011-02-03 06:09:13 <welterde> why didn't I think of that >_>
 673 2011-02-03 06:09:19 <luke-jr> :p
 674 2011-02-03 06:09:33 <welterde> I could probably even host a few at home..
 675 2011-02-03 06:09:55 <luke-jr> MOOs are dying, unfortunately.
 676 2011-02-03 06:10:11 <welterde> :(
 677 2011-02-03 06:13:28 <presence> MOOs arent already dead?
 678 2011-02-03 06:14:34 <luke-jr> not yet!
 679 2011-02-03 06:14:47 <luke-jr> blind people make up about 50% of the MOO world now though
 680 2011-02-03 06:14:55 <presence> I remember being a wiz on pegasus decades ago
 681 2011-02-03 06:15:02 <luke-jr> I don't know pegasus
 682 2011-02-03 06:15:04 <presence> and running tinymuck
 683 2011-02-03 06:15:07 <luke-jr> I grew up on KidMud/Kids' MOO
 684 2011-02-03 06:15:56 <presence> muck forth was awesome
 685 2011-02-03 06:15:57 <presence> heh
 686 2011-02-03 06:16:49 <luke-jr> maybe I'll get into MOOs again when my children can read and type
 687 2011-02-03 06:16:52 <luke-jr> ;)
 688 2011-02-03 06:23:00 <nanotube> luke-jr: you'll have to start a tonal moo. :)
 689 2011-02-03 06:23:14 <luke-jr> nanotube: omg I should!
 690 2011-02-03 06:23:26 <luke-jr> :p
 691 2011-02-03 06:23:29 <nanotube> would be good practice for those who want to learn tonal.
 692 2011-02-03 06:23:37 <nanotube> more fun than just reading a book
 693 2011-02-03 06:23:41 <luke-jr> not really…
 694 2011-02-03 06:23:47 <luke-jr> how often do you use numbers in MOO?
 695 2011-02-03 06:23:57 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 696 2011-02-03 06:24:03 <nanotube> well, put up a bunch of math-based quests. :)
 697 2011-02-03 06:24:50 * luke-jr has a Win3.11 math game somewhere around here
 698 2011-02-03 06:26:37 <luke-jr> how do I monitor my Radeon's temps?
 699 2011-02-03 06:27:51 <presence> I use my g15 keyboard and AIDE
 700 2011-02-03 06:27:56 <presence> but you are running linux
 701 2011-02-03 06:28:55 <presence> did you check lm-sesnsors and ksensors?
 702 2011-02-03 06:29:45 <luke-jr> …no
 703 2011-02-03 06:29:49 <luke-jr> don't even have those installed
 704 2011-02-03 06:29:55 <luke-jr> doubt they know GPU exists
 705 2011-02-03 06:29:59 <luke-jr> nothign else on my system does XD
 706 2011-02-03 06:30:54 <presence> they do
 707 2011-02-03 06:31:05 <luke-jr> …
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 709 2011-02-03 06:31:47 <presence> hmm, mayb not radeon
 710 2011-02-03 06:31:57 <presence> http://www.lm-sensors.org/wiki/Devices
 711 2011-02-03 06:33:09 <lfm> luke-jr: aticonfig --od-gettemperature
 712 2011-02-03 06:33:47 <Kiba> hmm
 713 2011-02-03 06:33:55 * Kiba finally finish his work for tonight
 714 2011-02-03 06:34:05 <presence> I dont have an ati card yet to even look at it
 715 2011-02-03 06:36:47 <Vladimir> aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt
 716 2011-02-03 06:38:06 <satamusic> may someone link to a tutorial for generating on a 8800 gpu from win7 64bit?  thanks.
 717 2011-02-03 06:38:37 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 718 2011-02-03 06:39:07 <lfm> satamusic:  no tutorials that I know of, just look for cuda miner by puddinpop
 719 2011-02-03 06:39:31 <satamusic> using that one but don't know what arguments to use, if any
 720 2011-02-03 06:41:09 <luke-jr> lfm: 78 C
 721 2011-02-03 06:41:16 <presence> they only "tunable" I know of is agression
 722 2011-02-03 06:41:23 <presence> and you probably want to leave it alone
 723 2011-02-03 06:41:32 <lfm> satamusic: run bitcoin in -server mode OR join a pool?
 724 2011-02-03 06:42:08 <lfm> luke-jr: 78c should be fine
 725 2011-02-03 06:42:32 <presence> I dont know how much value there is in running an 8800gpu on its own, but you can earn
 726 2011-02-03 06:43:03 <presence> I run my gtx260s at 80-86deg c
 727 2011-02-03 06:43:55 <satamusic> i generated 50btc on a 900mhz celeron in a month :p
 728 2011-02-03 06:44:06 <satamusic> thanks lfm
 729 2011-02-03 06:44:10 <lfm> sata when was that?
 730 2011-02-03 06:44:13 <presence> that was prolly ages ago or luck :D
 731 2011-02-03 06:44:19 <satamusic> 8/10
 732 2011-02-03 06:44:21 <satamusic> luck
 733 2011-02-03 06:44:41 <lfm> satamusic: ya difficulty has been going up constantly since then
 734 2011-02-03 06:44:56 <luke-jr> wiki has 5850 at 725 MHz, but mine says 765 MHz… why?
 735 2011-02-03 06:45:17 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 736 2011-02-03 06:45:18 <lfm> luke-jr: just lucky I guess
 737 2011-02-03 06:45:25 <luke-jr> ⁇?
 738 2011-02-03 06:45:39 <lfm> luke-jr: some of those numbers are just estimates
 739 2011-02-03 06:46:10 <luke-jr> …..
 740 2011-02-03 06:46:14 <lfm> luke-jr: some makers do factory overclocks
 741 2011-02-03 06:46:15 <satamusic> just run bitcoin.exe -server    ?
 742 2011-02-03 06:46:43 <luke-jr> lfm: like Gigabyte?
 743 2011-02-03 06:46:52 <luke-jr> is it safe?
 744 2011-02-03 06:46:55 <lfm> satamusic: or server in the config file
 745 2011-02-03 06:47:20 <lfm> luke-jr: please dont drill my tooth
 746 2011-02-03 06:47:31 <luke-jr> ?
 747 2011-02-03 06:47:48 <lfm> luke-jr:  google marathon man
 748 2011-02-03 06:49:49 <lfm> luke-jr:  google "marathon man" "Is it safe?"
 749 2011-02-03 06:51:42 <jgarzik> slush: question about calculating cluster hash rate... what is 1 share (32-bit target) equivalent to, in mhash/sec?
 750 2011-02-03 06:52:26 <lfm> jgarzik: wrong units 1 share is equivalent to 2^32 hashes (not hash/s)
 751 2011-02-03 06:52:51 <jgarzik> ok
 752 2011-02-03 06:52:59 CyanDynamo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 753 2011-02-03 06:54:50 <OneFixt> for some reason bitcoind let me send from testnet to a live account
 754 2011-02-03 06:55:05 <OneFixt> shouldn't there be a check?
 755 2011-02-03 06:55:31 <lfm> OneFixt: what exactly did you do?
 756 2011-02-03 06:55:55 <OneFixt> used testnet bitcoind to send coins to a mainnet address
 757 2011-02-03 06:56:12 <OneFixt> and didn't get an error, the coins were taken out of the wallet
 758 2011-02-03 06:56:41 <nanotube> OneFixt: yea, going mainnet -> testnet errors, but the other way doesn't
 759 2011-02-03 06:56:46 <echelon> does the bitcoin client not show the khash/s on windows?
 760 2011-02-03 06:56:47 <nanotube> dunno why it is the way it is, but it is.
 761 2011-02-03 06:56:57 <OneFixt> nanotube: ah, thanks
 762 2011-02-03 06:57:03 <OneFixt> i was afraid it was both ways
 763 2011-02-03 06:57:07 <lfm> thats no spozed to happen, its a bug should be reported in the dev forum
 764 2011-02-03 06:57:07 ForceMajeure has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 765 2011-02-03 06:57:11 <nanotube> OneFixt: maybe put in an issue on github. i think it'd be a good idea to have the both-ways check.
 766 2011-02-03 06:57:27 <lfm> or github
 767 2011-02-03 06:57:28 <OneFixt> hm, i don't have an account ther
 768 2011-02-03 06:57:30 <OneFixt> there
 769 2011-02-03 06:57:43 * nanotube guesses that it's time for OneFixt to make an account. :)
 770 2011-02-03 06:57:49 * OneFixt will think about it
 771 2011-02-03 06:59:05 ForceMajeure has joined
 772 2011-02-03 06:59:10 <nanotube> OneFixt: hehe
 773 2011-02-03 07:04:33 CyanDynamo has joined
 774 2011-02-03 07:05:35 <satamusic> lfm, that made me look into the bitcoin.conf, set user and pass and find out what arguments to pass to rpcminer-cuda.exe, running at 18mhash/s :)
 775 2011-02-03 07:07:14 <lfm> satamusic: wtg
 776 2011-02-03 07:08:46 <lfm> send tips to 1BDTwgHqXHZqAtT151EKTcfa7Tr3oBMsQ4 :-)
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 778 2011-02-03 07:10:11 <frewsxcv> i'm having a problem mining with opencl+ati. here's the pastebin http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1017187
 779 2011-02-03 07:10:36 <midnightmagic_> could there be a technical reason why miners running on the same machine as bitcoind -testnet would seem to be finding more blocks than miners running on remote machines?
 780 2011-02-03 07:11:33 <lfm> midnightmagic shouldnt be significant so long as the networking is working right
 781 2011-02-03 07:12:41 <lfm> frewsxcv: platform 0 is your cpu, try 1
 782 2011-02-03 07:13:22 <lfm> frewsxcv: I might be wrong about that tho
 783 2011-02-03 07:13:36 <midnightmagic_> hrm, that's what i was thinking too. but it's a LAN.
 784 2011-02-03 07:13:57 <frewsxcv> lfm: no, 0 is my gpu
 785 2011-02-03 07:14:37 <lfm> rval=0 is errors
 786 2011-02-03 07:15:20 <frewsxcv> lfm: do i need to connect this to a server?
 787 2011-02-03 07:15:53 <lfm> frewsxcv: server or pool
 788 2011-02-03 07:16:51 <frewsxcv> all i want to do is mine on my local machine. the official client uses the cpu but i want to use my gpu. what is the easiest way to use my gpu?
 789 2011-02-03 07:17:19 <lfm> frewsxcv: keep running bitcoin add server option
 790 2011-02-03 07:17:55 <lfm> frewsxcv: you can keep running cpu mining generation or not, up to you
 791 2011-02-03 07:18:38 <lfm> -gen=0 option would turn off cpu mining
 792 2011-02-03 07:18:41 <sipa> frewsxcv: first find a miner for your platform and gpu
 793 2011-02-03 07:18:54 <sipa> then connect that to either your local bitcoind, or to a pool
 794 2011-02-03 07:19:31 <frewsxcv> lfm: where do i add server option?
 795 2011-02-03 07:20:40 <lfm> frewsxcv: either command line or in config file
 796 2011-02-03 07:21:35 <frewsxcv> lfm: so do i not need this opencl executable?
 797 2011-02-03 07:22:08 <sipa> no you do
 798 2011-02-03 07:22:08 <lfm> frewsxcv: oh for nvidia no, you want the cuda version
 799 2011-02-03 07:22:16 <frewsxcv> i have ati
 800 2011-02-03 07:22:25 <sipa> then you need opencl
 801 2011-02-03 07:22:31 <lfm> oh ok for ati ya use opencl
 802 2011-02-03 07:22:43 <sipa> bitcoind only does mining on cpu
 803 2011-02-03 07:22:43 <frewsxcv> ah i see
 804 2011-02-03 07:23:28 <sipa> but you can use a specialized program which requests work from bitcoind, and does the calculations in gpu
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 808 2011-02-03 07:31:30 <satamusic> on its way lfm
 809 2011-02-03 07:31:42 <lfm> ty
 810 2011-02-03 07:33:25 <satamusic> i hope what i sent is enough to buy a small house
 811 2011-02-03 07:33:40 <lfm> very funny
 812 2011-02-03 07:33:59 <satamusic> :(
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 814 2011-02-03 08:00:15 <frewsxcv> lfm: any ideas why it still might not be working? how can i test the connectivity with the server?
 815 2011-02-03 08:02:18 <lfm> is it reporting hash/s?
 816 2011-02-03 08:02:33 <frewsxcv> lfm: no
 817 2011-02-03 08:03:00 <frewsxcv> http://pastebin.com/hfLF4D7j
 818 2011-02-03 08:03:19 <lfm> maybe have to tell it to connect to localhost or 128.0.0.1
 819 2011-02-03 08:03:54 <lfm> i mean 127.0.0.1
 820 2011-02-03 08:04:27 <frewsxcv> lfm: look at the flags i passed to it on the first line
 821 2011-02-03 08:05:02 <frewsxcv> oh i tried -url=http://127.0.0.1:8332
 822 2011-02-03 08:05:10 <lfm> ya, I hope thats not the real password or you change it real soon
 823 2011-02-03 08:05:36 <frewsxcv> lfm: why would it matter? i don't use that password anywhere else
 824 2011-02-03 08:05:55 <lfm> people can steal your coins with it
 825 2011-02-03 08:06:05 <sipa> if your bitcoind isnt reachable from outside youre fine
 826 2011-02-03 08:06:07 <frewsxcv> 1) i have 0.6 btc, and 2) it's not even working
 827 2011-02-03 08:06:32 <lfm> that target line seems to indicate it is close
 828 2011-02-03 08:07:00 <sipa> indeed
 829 2011-02-03 08:07:29 <lfm> what model gpu is it?
 830 2011-02-03 08:07:39 <frewsxcv> ati 4770
 831 2011-02-03 08:11:37 <lfm> the Target= means it has connected to the server and done a getwork
 832 2011-02-03 08:11:49 <frewsxcv> hmmm
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 834 2011-02-03 08:12:29 <lfm> Im still not sure if those rval=0 are errors
 835 2011-02-03 08:12:57 <frewsxcv> lfm: i don't need those extensions do i?
 836 2011-02-03 08:13:02 <frewsxcv> the ones taht are outputted
 837 2011-02-03 08:13:07 <lfm> frewsxcv: what version vid driover is it?
 838 2011-02-03 08:13:17 <lfm> driver
 839 2011-02-03 08:13:20 <frewsxcv> the latest catalyst whatever that is
 840 2011-02-03 08:13:21 * frewsxcv checks
 841 2011-02-03 08:13:41 <frewsxcv> 2011.0104.2155.39304
 842 2011-02-03 08:15:02 <lfm> those extensions look ok to me. the problem is I dont use rpcminer-opencl.exe at all myself and I dont use any opencl on windows myself
 843 2011-02-03 08:15:48 <lfm> I been using diablo miner and m0mchill's miner on linux
 844 2011-02-03 08:16:20 <frewsxcv> unfortunately, the ati drivers suck for my video card + linux
 845 2011-02-03 08:16:38 <frewsxcv> so, i tried using rpcminer-cpu.exe and it's working
 846 2011-02-03 08:16:43 <frewsxcv> and i'm aware that's not what i want
 847 2011-02-03 08:16:49 <frewsxcv> but the connection is indeed going through
 848 2011-02-03 08:17:06 <lfm> can you try the slightly older video drivers from ati, 10-12 or 10-11?
 849 2011-02-03 08:18:13 <frewsxcv> should i be getting my drivers through ati or sapphire?
 850 2011-02-03 08:18:32 <lfm> just ati i think
 851 2011-02-03 08:18:34 <frewsxcv> i mean, it's a saphire ati 4770, but should that make a difference if i just get it through ati's drivers?
 852 2011-02-03 08:18:53 <frewsxcv> which one? 10-12 or 10-11?
 853 2011-02-03 08:19:04 <lfm> try 10-12
 854 2011-02-03 08:29:40 RazielZ has joined
 855 2011-02-03 08:30:12 purpleposeidon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 856 2011-02-03 08:31:57 <frewsxcv> lfm: no luck
 857 2011-02-03 08:32:44 <lfm> same result then eh? well try the  forum thread for those miners
 858 2011-02-03 08:34:30 <satamusic> yep frewsxcv post pastebin, screenshot, and details on the forums
 859 2011-02-03 08:34:54 <frewsxcv> uggghh such a waste of time for me
 860 2011-02-03 08:35:21 <satamusic> not a waste of time, you learned something :3
 861 2011-02-03 08:35:29 <frewsxcv> yeah i guess
 862 2011-02-03 08:35:43 <satamusic> and ud still have to wait weekd to generate coin
 863 2011-02-03 08:35:59 purpleposeidon has joined
 864 2011-02-03 08:36:03 <satamusic> do the forum thing
 865 2011-02-03 08:39:24 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 866 2011-02-03 08:41:50 <Diablo-D3> holy fucking shit
 867 2011-02-03 08:41:58 <Diablo-D3> you know that thrust vps company?
 868 2011-02-03 08:42:43 <Diablo-D3> the guy who runs it
 869 2011-02-03 08:42:44 <Diablo-D3> is
 870 2011-02-03 08:42:47 <Diablo-D3> a total douchebag
 871 2011-02-03 08:43:28 <Diablo-D3> and has a history on WHT from fucking people over
 872 2011-02-03 08:44:09 <Diablo-D3> man, why isnt that fucker dead and/or in jail yet
 873 2011-02-03 08:44:56 <Diablo-D3> thrust vps is the same company as fsckvps and vaserv
 874 2011-02-03 08:45:18 <echelon> where can i get some "bitcoin accepted here" logos?
 875 2011-02-03 08:45:29 <Diablo-D3> hrm, try the wiki?
 876 2011-02-03 08:46:45 <frewsxcv> Diablo-D3: WHT?
 877 2011-02-03 08:47:38 <Diablo-D3> frewsxcv: I'd like to tell you about this wonderful website... its called google
 878 2011-02-03 08:51:39 <satamusic> haha Diablo-D3 you even checked them out on wht :p
 879 2011-02-03 08:52:01 <frewsxcv> so far i haven't experienced a problem
 880 2011-02-03 08:52:02 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: I read wht periodically
 881 2011-02-03 08:52:54 <satamusic> i found databasebydesign there, i had an unmanaged server and they basically ran the thing for me. good ratings on wht.  the other one i use, wiredtree (managed) also great ratings on wht
 882 2011-02-03 08:53:17 <frewsxcv> http://www.feralhosting.com/heron/slots/ also has cheap stuff. though they aren't vps
 883 2011-02-03 08:53:26 <Diablo-D3> I dont care for managed shit
 884 2011-02-03 08:53:44 <frewsxcv> good for a seedbox
 885 2011-02-03 08:54:48 <satamusic> i do, i don't know it all :/
 886 2011-02-03 08:55:24 sudog has joined
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 888 2011-02-03 08:55:53 <satamusic> still have managed server with wiredtree, had it since 2007, no problems, no outage (welll.... one), no breakins
 889 2011-02-03 08:56:15 <satamusic> i think managed services have their purpose Diablo-D3
 890 2011-02-03 08:56:27 * frewsxcv agrees
 891 2011-02-03 08:56:45 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but not when you know more than their techs do
 892 2011-02-03 08:57:08 <satamusic> ah not everyone has that advantage
 893 2011-02-03 08:57:30 <frewsxcv> Diablo-D3: find me an unmanaged that can beat those specs
 894 2011-02-03 08:57:33 <frewsxcv> (feral)
 895 2011-02-03 08:57:53 <satamusic> get on wht
 896 2011-02-03 08:58:03 <satamusic> and for really low end
 897 2011-02-03 08:58:19 <Diablo-D3> frewsxcv: I dont do business with shit companies
 898 2011-02-03 08:58:21 <Diablo-D3> you're on your own
 899 2011-02-03 08:58:22 <satamusic> http://www.lowendbox.com/
 900 2011-02-03 08:58:39 <frewsxcv> Diablo-D3: honestly, just calm down
 901 2011-02-03 08:58:39 <satamusic> na, check wht
 902 2011-02-03 08:59:05 <satamusic> good companies usually have pages and pages of praise, same for bad companies, tons of complaints
 903 2011-02-03 09:00:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah, wht is really useful
 904 2011-02-03 09:00:28 <Diablo-D3> well, sometimes anyways
 905 2011-02-03 09:00:33 <Diablo-D3> I remember when wht was less popular
 906 2011-02-03 09:00:36 <Diablo-D3> as in, better
 907 2011-02-03 09:00:57 Ljrn900 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 908 2011-02-03 09:01:14 <satamusic> as in less spam?
 909 2011-02-03 09:01:25 <Diablo-D3> well, less bullshit
 910 2011-02-03 09:01:43 <Diablo-D3> theres been incidents where a brand new company all the sudden has a shitload of praise
 911 2011-02-03 09:02:23 <satamusic> and then they disappear?
 912 2011-02-03 09:02:32 <Diablo-D3> its obviously malicious
 913 2011-02-03 09:02:33 <Diablo-D3> but that only happened when everyone realized wht is _the_ advertising spot for small time hosting companies
 914 2011-02-03 09:02:37 <Diablo-D3> post haste.
 915 2011-02-03 09:02:48 <satamusic> frewsxcv http://lmgtfy.com/?q=WHT
 916 2011-02-03 09:03:10 <satamusic> and Diablo-D3 (just in case you don't know about the wonderful lmgtfy ;)
 917 2011-02-03 09:03:19 <Diablo-D3> Im aware of that
 918 2011-02-03 09:03:23 <Diablo-D3> I just like full length snark
 919 2011-02-03 09:03:25 <satamusic> :3
 920 2011-02-03 09:03:39 <satamusic> and this would be... sneaky snark?
 921 2011-02-03 09:03:45 <Diablo-D3> tinyurl-esque snark
 922 2011-02-03 09:03:54 <satamusic> ah
 923 2011-02-03 09:04:16 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, the companies I like to do business with are ones that HAVE had problems
 924 2011-02-03 09:04:54 <Diablo-D3> you look at how they handled the problem
 925 2011-02-03 09:05:04 <Diablo-D3> if they handled it well, then they're worth doing business with
 926 2011-02-03 09:05:09 <Diablo-D3> if they repeatedly fuck it up, fuck them
 927 2011-02-03 09:05:18 <Diablo-D3> if they died out, well that makes your choice easier
 928 2011-02-03 09:05:42 <Diablo-D3> new companies who havent had their first big fuckup, they dont really have a good or bad side
 929 2011-02-03 09:05:50 <Diablo-D3> and ALL companies WILL have one
 930 2011-02-03 09:05:52 <Diablo-D3> it just takes time
 931 2011-02-03 09:06:18 <Diablo-D3> theres very few companies that can repeatedly take on shit and thrive
 932 2011-02-03 09:06:40 <Diablo-D3> those are the companies that have been around 10+ years, do millions in business every year, and have hundreds of thousands of customers
 933 2011-02-03 09:07:14 <Diablo-D3> they are not cheap, sometimes they are even overpriced a tad, but having a company that knows how to handle shit when it goes wrong is worth it's weight in gold
 934 2011-02-03 09:07:27 <Diablo-D3> any fucker can rack a few boxes and plug them into the internet
 935 2011-02-03 09:07:44 <satamusic> the rack that hosted my vps at wiredtree was down for half hour because of a bad power strip :D  just that once thou, and they called me on my cellphone to let me know!
 936 2011-02-03 09:07:49 <Diablo-D3> it takes someone with balls to stand up to shit
 937 2011-02-03 09:08:01 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: yeah, shit like that happens
 938 2011-02-03 09:08:21 <Diablo-D3> steadfast, which is a DC in chicago that hosts like two dozen big companies
 939 2011-02-03 09:08:21 <satamusic> a $5 power strip...
 940 2011-02-03 09:08:38 <Diablo-D3> accidently tripped the main building power
 941 2011-02-03 09:08:47 <satamusic> tsk tsk
 942 2011-02-03 09:08:49 <satamusic> shit happens
 943 2011-02-03 09:09:00 <Diablo-D3> rapidxen chicago, all the other steadfast customers, AND half the building was down for like an hour
 944 2011-02-03 09:09:03 <Diablo-D3> it happens
 945 2011-02-03 09:09:17 <satamusic> didnt the planet have an explosion a few years ago?
 946 2011-02-03 09:09:25 <Diablo-D3> last year I think
 947 2011-02-03 09:09:33 <Diablo-D3> power rectifier nuked itself
 948 2011-02-03 09:09:41 <Diablo-D3> thats pretty rare though
 949 2011-02-03 09:09:48 <Diablo-D3> had to have been a manufacturing defect
 950 2011-02-03 09:10:03 <Diablo-D3> btw, $5 power strip? no
 951 2011-02-03 09:10:08 <Diablo-D3> a lot of companies use ones like I have
 952 2011-02-03 09:10:23 <Diablo-D3> $25 power strip thats _just_ a power strip
 953 2011-02-03 09:10:31 <Diablo-D3> no surge protection, no nothing else
 954 2011-02-03 09:10:44 <satamusic> hmm they run racks on DC power?
 955 2011-02-03 09:10:45 <Diablo-D3> metal body, solid construction, secure plug that can survive heavy use
 956 2011-02-03 09:10:48 <lfm> rack mount nothing costs $5
 957 2011-02-03 09:10:58 <lfm> maybe a bolt
 958 2011-02-03 09:11:07 <Diablo-D3> I have two under my desk
 959 2011-02-03 09:11:11 <Diablo-D3> some triplite shit
 960 2011-02-03 09:11:15 <Diablo-D3> very very nice
 961 2011-02-03 09:11:50 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: btw, no
 962 2011-02-03 09:11:52 <satamusic> still funny how a $25 power strip brings down a whole rack and tons of servers with it
 963 2011-02-03 09:11:53 <Diablo-D3> depends on the place though
 964 2011-02-03 09:12:05 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: well, sounds like they cheaped out
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 966 2011-02-03 09:12:15 <Diablo-D3> a PDU usually doesnt fry
 967 2011-02-03 09:12:17 <Diablo-D3> it DOES happen
 968 2011-02-03 09:12:20 <Diablo-D3> its just exceedingly rare
 969 2011-02-03 09:12:25 <satamusic> manuf defect
 970 2011-02-03 09:12:41 <Diablo-D3> btw, with DC power, there ARE some that use 48v DC
 971 2011-02-03 09:12:44 <Diablo-D3> google does, for example
 972 2011-02-03 09:13:15 <satamusic> what was it that happened at the planet related to nuked power rectifier?
 973 2011-02-03 09:13:18 <Diablo-D3> they replaced the PSUs with partially disassembled UPSes
 974 2011-02-03 09:13:46 <Diablo-D3> so it has an extremely tiny battery (like 5-10 minutes), and takes 48v off the line and sends 48v to the computer
 975 2011-02-03 09:14:12 <Diablo-D3> then they step it down to 12v and use a pico psu
 976 2011-02-03 09:14:23 <satamusic> so less conversion loss?
 977 2011-02-03 09:14:23 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: cant quite remember
 978 2011-02-03 09:14:30 <Diablo-D3> yeah very little conversion loss
 979 2011-02-03 09:14:35 <Diablo-D3> thats why you use 48V dc to begin with
 980 2011-02-03 09:14:52 <Diablo-D3> but google basically started assembling custom PSUs en masse to make it chepaer
 981 2011-02-03 09:15:16 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if they fab them now
 982 2011-02-03 09:15:42 <Diablo-D3> but the way they did it, they figured out its much cheaper
 983 2011-02-03 09:15:43 <Diablo-D3> like
 984 2011-02-03 09:15:47 <Diablo-D3> no wasting room on a rack for an UPS
 985 2011-02-03 09:15:54 <lfm> ya just hire a factory in china to do a run whenever they need more
 986 2011-02-03 09:15:56 <satamusic> the planet explosion was in 2003 and 2008
 987 2011-02-03 09:16:04 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: and?!
 988 2011-02-03 09:16:05 <satamusic> they must have a factory just for themselves
 989 2011-02-03 09:16:08 <Diablo-D3> I remember the 2008 one
 990 2011-02-03 09:16:22 <Diablo-D3> wow, its been that long?
 991 2011-02-03 09:16:23 <Diablo-D3> heh
 992 2011-02-03 09:16:27 <Diablo-D3> I thought it was like a year
 993 2011-02-03 09:16:30 <Diablo-D3> not 3
 994 2011-02-03 09:16:40 <Diablo-D3> but yeah, like, google's trick worked
 995 2011-02-03 09:16:42 <Diablo-D3> they're happy with it
 996 2011-02-03 09:16:46 <Diablo-D3> I dont expect anyone else to try it
 997 2011-02-03 09:16:59 <Diablo-D3> but most places just use 120 or three phase 208 drops
 998 2011-02-03 09:17:09 <satamusic> http://tech.slashdot.org/story/08/06/01/1715247/Explosion-At-ThePlanet-Datacenter-Drops-9000-Servers
 999 2011-02-03 09:17:32 <Diablo-D3> heh
1000 2011-02-03 09:17:38 <satamusic> why wont anybody else try it?
1001 2011-02-03 09:17:40 <Diablo-D3> this is the story I learned it from too
1002 2011-02-03 09:17:49 <Diablo-D3> google could do it because they have like a million boxes
1003 2011-02-03 09:18:00 <lfm> cuz tesla beat edison
1004 2011-02-03 09:18:02 <Diablo-D3> custom ordering shit and assembling it themselves is cheap
1005 2011-02-03 09:18:05 <satamusic> lol lfm
1006 2011-02-03 09:18:15 <Diablo-D3> now, otoh
1007 2011-02-03 09:18:21 <Diablo-D3> I can get an industrial PSU
1008 2011-02-03 09:18:24 <Diablo-D3> meant for welding
1009 2011-02-03 09:18:50 <Diablo-D3> that is rated for like 25k watts
1010 2011-02-03 09:18:53 <Diablo-D3> and outputs 12v
1011 2011-02-03 09:19:03 slush has joined
1012 2011-02-03 09:19:21 <Diablo-D3> the company that made them sold fake PSUs for it
1013 2011-02-03 09:19:33 <satamusic> fake psus?
1014 2011-02-03 09:19:34 <Diablo-D3> ATX sized box, all the standard plugs and a bunch of pci-e ones
1015 2011-02-03 09:19:35 <lfm> Diablo-D3: Id suspect it might need a lot of filtering
1016 2011-02-03 09:19:52 <Diablo-D3> and had step down DC->DC converters for 12->5 and ->3.3 and whatever
1017 2011-02-03 09:19:53 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1018 2011-02-03 09:19:59 <Diablo-D3> and some filtering, but not much
1019 2011-02-03 09:20:23 <Diablo-D3> the output from the industrial PSU was already designed for this task (the company repurposed it)
1020 2011-02-03 09:20:32 <Diablo-D3> so you get this insanely efficient high output fucker
1021 2011-02-03 09:20:40 <Diablo-D3> that can do like 5 or 10 boxes
1022 2011-02-03 09:21:06 <Diablo-D3> I dont think anyone actually bought them
1023 2011-02-03 09:21:07 <lfm> 5 or 10 racks
1024 2011-02-03 09:21:18 <Diablo-D3> lfm: this is #bitcoin
1025 2011-02-03 09:21:35 <Diablo-D3> and no, I mean, if you wanna really fuck shit up
1026 2011-02-03 09:21:49 <Diablo-D3> there are 5U blade boxes that take 4 full sized ATX 2000w PSUs
1027 2011-02-03 09:21:54 <Diablo-D3> and they're not "redundant"
1028 2011-02-03 09:21:54 <satamusic> ah the fake psu is to get the 5v and 3.3v apart from the 12v that the industrial ones provide
1029 2011-02-03 09:22:02 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: yeah, and have all the plugs
1030 2011-02-03 09:22:05 <Diablo-D3> and actually get it into the box
1031 2011-02-03 09:22:12 <satamusic> got it now
1032 2011-02-03 09:22:14 <Diablo-D3> the ATX PSU box is mostly empty
1033 2011-02-03 09:22:26 <satamusic> ya no huge transformers
1034 2011-02-03 09:22:32 <lfm> gotta let the air thru
1035 2011-02-03 09:22:38 <Diablo-D3> they used decent components though
1036 2011-02-03 09:22:41 <satamusic> air is expensive
1037 2011-02-03 09:22:42 <Diablo-D3> like huge jap caps and shit
1038 2011-02-03 09:22:50 <Diablo-D3> and yeah, it had a 80mm fan and shit
1039 2011-02-03 09:23:11 <Diablo-D3> good PSUs dont have 120 AC -> 5v/3.3v transformers anyhow
1040 2011-02-03 09:23:12 dirtyfilthy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1041 2011-02-03 09:23:19 <satamusic> 25k of 12v is a lot...
1042 2011-02-03 09:23:31 dirtyfilthy has joined
1043 2011-02-03 09:23:36 <Diablo-D3> yes, its almost enough for art.
1044 2011-02-03 09:23:46 <Diablo-D3> him and his 24 5970s
1045 2011-02-03 09:23:49 <Diablo-D3> and other assorted shit
1046 2011-02-03 09:23:50 <satamusic> lol
1047 2011-02-03 09:23:58 <lfm> prolly too expensive for art
1048 2011-02-03 09:24:05 <Diablo-D3> well, he'd only have to buy one
1049 2011-02-03 09:24:14 <Diablo-D3> it was like $5k or some shit
1050 2011-02-03 09:24:15 <satamusic> and if it that one fails...
1051 2011-02-03 09:24:24 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: if it fails his house blows up
1052 2011-02-03 09:24:29 <satamusic> lol
1053 2011-02-03 09:25:01 <satamusic> can't recover any bitcoins from the ruins :(
1054 2011-02-03 09:25:16 <Diablo-D3> but yeah
1055 2011-02-03 09:25:33 <Diablo-D3> having a centralized large scale DC transformer does make it very efficient
1056 2011-02-03 09:25:42 <Diablo-D3> but the problem with DC is it drops over long distances easily
1057 2011-02-03 09:25:50 <satamusic> how much is the loss on consumer psus?
1058 2011-02-03 09:26:00 <Diablo-D3> its not unusual for 48DC in a DC to drop below 36
1059 2011-02-03 09:26:13 <Diablo-D3> and most of the PSUs or that expect 24-48
1060 2011-02-03 09:26:15 <satamusic> at what distance using what cabling?
1061 2011-02-03 09:26:17 <Diablo-D3> *for
1062 2011-02-03 09:26:22 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: building sized.
1063 2011-02-03 09:26:26 <satamusic> ah
1064 2011-02-03 09:26:43 <Diablo-D3> now that you have cheap >90% efficient AC psus its not really an issue
1065 2011-02-03 09:27:05 <Diablo-D3> pc power and cooling made the first consumer >90% efficient PSU (enterprise ones were making them for years)
1066 2011-02-03 09:27:10 <Diablo-D3> and that was like 10 years ago
1067 2011-02-03 09:27:31 <Diablo-D3> then antec made the 90plus program, and now everyone ships 90%+ shit
1068 2011-02-03 09:28:01 <satamusic> i suppose hardware fans measure that when doing reviews, right?
1069 2011-02-03 09:28:07 <Diablo-D3> yes
1070 2011-02-03 09:28:15 <Diablo-D3> people do all sorts of nutty shit to PSUs
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1072 2011-02-03 09:28:21 <Diablo-D3> like intentionally trying to make them go bang
1073 2011-02-03 09:28:32 <Diablo-D3> some bang easier than others
1074 2011-02-03 09:28:37 <satamusic> feed them 480ac?
1075 2011-02-03 09:29:00 <lfm> see what happens when you short the fuses and breakers
1076 2011-02-03 09:29:07 <satamusic> no thnx :)
1077 2011-02-03 09:29:31 <lfm> thats some of the stuff underwriters labs does
1078 2011-02-03 09:29:40 <satamusic> is my 8800 gpu supposed to be running at 160F?
1079 2011-02-03 09:29:55 <lfm> whats that in C
1080 2011-02-03 09:30:04 <satamusic> 73 + -
1081 2011-02-03 09:30:07 <lfm> doesnt sound too bad really
1082 2011-02-03 09:30:09 <Diablo-D3> satamusic: thats fine
1083 2011-02-03 09:30:25 <Diablo-D3> geforces should be under 80, radeons under 85
1084 2011-02-03 09:30:33 <Diablo-D3> and cpus under 80
1085 2011-02-03 09:30:39 <slush> jgarzik: 1 share / sec means 2**32 hashes / sec, so approx 4.29 Mhash/s
1086 2011-02-03 09:30:41 <Diablo-D3> but, meh, I dont like anything above 65.
1087 2011-02-03 09:30:51 <lfm> my 5770 only goes up to 72 when I turn the fan off
1088 2011-02-03 09:30:55 <satamusic> i don't have ac here :(
1089 2011-02-03 09:31:17 <satamusic> + i live on an island so it's cool by night
1090 2011-02-03 09:31:32 <sipa> slush: 4.29 Ghash/s
1091 2011-02-03 09:31:40 <slush> oh, of course, sorry
1092 2011-02-03 09:31:41 <lfm> winter here, gets too warm I can get frost by opening a window
1093 2011-02-03 09:31:50 <satamusic> holy! 4.3ghash?!?
1094 2011-02-03 09:32:32 <lfm> ''bc,calc 4300000
1095 2011-02-03 09:32:39 <lfm> ';;bc,calc 4300000
1096 2011-02-03 09:32:46 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 4300000
1097 2011-02-03 09:32:47 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 6 hours, 6 minutes, and 26 seconds
1098 2011-02-03 09:32:54 <satamusic> profit!
1099 2011-02-03 09:33:35 <joe_1> who gets 4.3 ghash
1100 2011-02-03 09:33:45 <slush> many people
1101 2011-02-03 09:33:45 <sipa> ArtForz/4
1102 2011-02-03 09:33:54 <satamusic> /4?
1103 2011-02-03 09:34:05 <sipa> 0.25 ArtForz gets 4.3 GHash/s, i guess :p
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1107 2011-02-03 09:34:40 <lfm> just from his old box
1108 2011-02-03 09:34:42 <satamusic> he gets free electricity?
1109 2011-02-03 09:34:47 <lfm> nope
1110 2011-02-03 09:35:05 <satamusic> has backyard nuke reactor and turbines?
1111 2011-02-03 09:35:21 molecular has joined
1112 2011-02-03 09:35:29 <sipa> almost
1113 2011-02-03 09:35:30 <satamusic> works in a lab that pays for all that?
1114 2011-02-03 09:39:56 <lfm> i dont think he has said
1115 2011-02-03 09:40:20 <satamusic> off to work, thanks for the talks lfm, sipa, Diablo-D3, frewsxcv
1116 2011-02-03 09:40:29 <Diablo-D3> seeya
1117 2011-02-03 09:40:32 * satamusic afk
1118 2011-02-03 09:40:34 <lfm> but I think the bitcoins have been pating for his power
1119 2011-02-03 09:40:54 <lfm> paying
1120 2011-02-03 09:40:57 <lfm> bye
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1124 2011-02-03 10:10:47 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 27436285 3h 43m 42s
1125 2011-02-03 10:10:47 <gribble> 0.979657713495
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1141 2011-02-03 10:46:22  is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-251-225-195.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
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1145 2011-02-03 10:54:00 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, have your ASICs arrived yet? :-]
1146 2011-02-03 10:55:22 <Diablo-D3> lawlz
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1150 2011-02-03 11:00:20 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
1151 2011-02-03 11:00:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 105958 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 889 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 13 hours, 50 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 24274.30741753
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1159 2011-02-03 11:20:18 <davout> ohai
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1182 2011-02-03 12:23:49 <dirtyfilthy> how long has getheaders been in the client for?
1183 2011-02-03 12:26:36 <lfm> is it in 0.3.19?
1184 2011-02-03 12:26:38 <dirtyfilthy> hmmm since the fifth of december
1185 2011-02-03 12:26:51 <dirtyfilthy> well
1186 2011-02-03 12:26:55 <dirtyfilthy> that's when the commit was
1187 2011-02-03 12:27:21 <dirtyfilthy> just wondering why no one ever responds to my "getheaders" ;_;
1188 2011-02-03 12:29:31 <dirtyfilthy> eh i'm connecting to plenty of recent clients so prolly just a fuck up on my part
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1208 2011-02-03 13:21:30 <watership_down> Wake up, neo. The matrix wants you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYmjasEXRdE&NR=1
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1214 2011-02-03 13:35:41 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: imagine if a religion tried this
1215 2011-02-03 13:35:45 <Diablo-D3> they've be wiped out
1216 2011-02-03 13:36:03 <watership_down> You think?
1217 2011-02-03 13:36:10 <davex__> so I thought Diablominer would "just work" if I copied the Stream SDK .so files into target/libs/natives/linux,
1218 2011-02-03 13:36:15 <davex__> guess i have to add them to LD_LIBRARY_PATH?
1219 2011-02-03 13:37:13 <watership_down> Diablo-D3: Pleas read: http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm
1220 2011-02-03 13:37:22 <watership_down> watch it... it can hurt your eyes...
1221 2011-02-03 13:37:35 <watership_down> read AFTER a cup of coffee....
1222 2011-02-03 13:38:20 <davex__> ah.  nope, see a reason why that wouldn't work.
1223 2011-02-03 13:39:33 <watership_down> I will tie the religion to it later... this is literally hidden information.
1224 2011-02-03 13:39:57 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: yeah, this video is bullshit
1225 2011-02-03 13:40:10 <watership_down> I put this here because people are awake
1226 2011-02-03 13:40:11 <watership_down> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
1227 2011-02-03 13:40:15 <watership_down> Yea why?
1228 2011-02-03 13:40:26 <watership_down> that is what you are programmed to say....
1229 2011-02-03 13:40:33 <watership_down> literally
1230 2011-02-03 13:41:28 <watership_down> Ever read the first 2 paragraphs of the Declaration of independence?
1231 2011-02-03 13:42:07 <Diablo-D3> yes... have you?
1232 2011-02-03 13:43:01 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Governments have power only because people recognize it.
1233 2011-02-03 13:43:06 <Diablo-D3> Money exists because people recognize it.
1234 2011-02-03 13:43:26 <watership_down> Money doesn't exist.. It is fictional.
1235 2011-02-03 13:43:27 <Diablo-D3> These videos are completely bullshit because people, at the end of the day, do not recognize it.
1236 2011-02-03 13:43:29 <watership_down> Paper
1237 2011-02-03 13:43:39 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1238 2011-02-03 13:43:41 <watership_down> again. you are very programmed... Nothing personal
1239 2011-02-03 13:43:47 <Diablo-D3> What is the worst they can do to me? Jail me? Torture me? Kill me?
1240 2011-02-03 13:43:52 <watership_down> yes
1241 2011-02-03 13:43:57 <ArtForz> yes yes, it's a global conspiracy!!one
1242 2011-02-03 13:44:28 <watership_down> When OUR country was set up, the Citizen was Sovereign. We the people, are the Parent, the government is the Child. If we are to remain Sovereign as a Nation, we must have Sovereign States, and without Sovereign Citizens, there is no Sovereign State.
1243 2011-02-03 13:44:46 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: But you even assume the Constitution has power.
1244 2011-02-03 13:44:48 <Diablo-D3> It does not.
1245 2011-02-03 13:44:48 <watership_down> Know what the word Sovereign even means?
1246 2011-02-03 13:44:54 <Diablo-D3> It is, too, a tool of government.
1247 2011-02-03 13:45:03 <Diablo-D3> Again, I ask, what is the worst they can do to me?
1248 2011-02-03 13:45:07 <Diablo-D3> You cannot own a person.
1249 2011-02-03 13:45:18 <Diablo-D3> Even God does not own people, and mere men are not above God.
1250 2011-02-03 13:45:24 <watership_down> Contrary to popualr belief, and as they teach in schools... the Constution in only handbook on how to RUN government
1251 2011-02-03 13:45:46 <davex__> no, constitution restrains govt
1252 2011-02-03 13:45:51 <davex__> in theory
1253 2011-02-03 13:45:55 <watership_down> btw: Sovereign people are the only ones in which the Declaration of Independance/Constutuon supoport
1254 2011-02-03 13:45:59 <watership_down> Please investigate this
1255 2011-02-03 13:46:10 <watership_down> you will literally shit
1256 2011-02-03 13:46:12 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Yes, but you have concluded the Constitution was valid.
1257 2011-02-03 13:46:16 <Diablo-D3> It is not.
1258 2011-02-03 13:46:25 <Diablo-D3> No document in which legalizes government is legitimate.
1259 2011-02-03 13:46:36 <Diablo-D3> Governments of man are not, and never shall be, legitimate.
1260 2011-02-03 13:46:37 <watership_down> Here is proof WITH EVERYTHING SITED http://ppjg.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/the-occupation-of-the-united-states-orhow-lincoln-made-slaves-out-of-all-of-us/
1261 2011-02-03 13:46:43 <watership_down> THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY
1262 2011-02-03 13:46:47 <Diablo-D3> The worst punishment they an enact is to kill me. Is this all they can do?
1263 2011-02-03 13:46:50 <watership_down> it is all on record Public
1264 2011-02-03 13:46:55 <Diablo-D3> Is that the maximum of their power?
1265 2011-02-03 13:46:56 mtgox has joined
1266 2011-02-03 13:46:58 <Diablo-D3> They are mere men.
1267 2011-02-03 13:47:02 <Diablo-D3> They have no power.
1268 2011-02-03 13:47:11 <Diablo-D3> By even discussing this with me you are perpetuating this.
1269 2011-02-03 13:47:11 <watership_down> Perhaps, but you are a US Citizen no?
1270 2011-02-03 13:47:35 <Diablo-D3> I am many things.
1271 2011-02-03 13:47:36 <watership_down> I am trying to set you free... 'IT' is what is fighting you.
1272 2011-02-03 13:48:04 <watership_down> If you are a US Citizen you are have 'slave rights' literally....
1273 2011-02-03 13:48:06 <Diablo-D3> A government that wishes to fight me is no more dangerous than a mosquito.
1274 2011-02-03 13:48:06 <watership_down> Please look this up
1275 2011-02-03 13:48:10 <watership_down> dont trust me
1276 2011-02-03 13:48:12 <watership_down> just read
1277 2011-02-03 13:48:20 <watership_down> you will be.... SHockED
1278 2011-02-03 13:48:38 <Diablo-D3> Silly people with the wool pulled over their eyes.
1279 2011-02-03 13:48:40 <ArtForz> lol
1280 2011-02-03 13:48:42 <watership_down> http://ppjg.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/the-occupation-of-the-united-states-orhow-lincoln-made-slaves-out-of-all-of-us/
1281 2011-02-03 13:48:50 <Diablo-D3> If you wish to be free, you act so.
1282 2011-02-03 13:48:56 <ArtForz> you know, people have seen that link the first time
1283 2011-02-03 13:48:57 <Diablo-D3> if you wish to be enslaved, this is also your choice.
1284 2011-02-03 13:48:59 <watership_down> read Diablo-D3.. all i can say is read....
1285 2011-02-03 13:49:13 <watership_down> dont take my word for it... just investigate this
1286 2011-02-03 13:49:19 <Diablo-D3> Accepting that any government has power is your downfall.
1287 2011-02-03 13:49:24 <watership_down> come back after 30 minutes and let me know
1288 2011-02-03 13:49:29 <watership_down> it is sobering
1289 2011-02-03 13:49:43 <watership_down> i am not a shill
1290 2011-02-03 13:50:09 <watership_down> this is all about the people regaining their freedom (SovereignCitizenship)
1291 2011-02-03 13:50:34 <watership_down> again... If you are here... your are searching for freedom from the FEDERAL RESERVE
1292 2011-02-03 13:50:41 <ArtForz> yawn.
1293 2011-02-03 13:50:42 <watership_down> that is who is controlling the world.
1294 2011-02-03 13:50:52 <watership_down> http://ppjg.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/the-occupation-of-the-united-states-orhow-lincoln-made-slaves-out-of-all-of-us/
1295 2011-02-03 13:51:02 <watership_down> I ask the people to only read
1296 2011-02-03 13:51:09 <watership_down> think for youself
1297 2011-02-03 13:51:17 <watership_down> but please, dont ignore this.
1298 2011-02-03 13:51:21 <ArtForz> why not paste that link another ten times for good measure?
1299 2011-02-03 13:51:52 <davex__> you're preaching to the choir.
1300 2011-02-03 13:51:58 <ArtForz> yup
1301 2011-02-03 13:52:24 <watership_down> There system is based on fear.
1302 2011-02-03 13:52:47 <ArtForz> Where system?
1303 2011-02-03 13:52:52 <watership_down> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
1304 2011-02-03 13:53:44 <noagendamarket> lol
1305 2011-02-03 13:54:02 <noagendamarket> I think someone took over 9000 red piulls
1306 2011-02-03 13:54:23 <ArtForz> lol
1307 2011-02-03 13:54:50 <watership_down> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzjv20sC5CY
1308 2011-02-03 13:55:04 <watership_down> Maybe that will help
1309 2011-02-03 13:55:21 <[Noodles]> help cure cancer?
1310 2011-02-03 13:55:37 <noagendamarket> who are you trying to convert?   we already are aware of this shit
1311 2011-02-03 13:55:41 <watership_down> http://gemworld(dot com)/USAvsUS.htm
1312 2011-02-03 13:55:48 <watership_down> oh>
1313 2011-02-03 13:55:49 <watership_down> ?
1314 2011-02-03 13:56:00 <watership_down> 'shit' ? What freedom?
1315 2011-02-03 13:56:05 <davex__> yeah, most of us here are already anarchists.
1316 2011-02-03 13:56:11 <noagendamarket> :)
1317 2011-02-03 13:56:14 <watership_down> You are a slave by deception.
1318 2011-02-03 13:56:17 <watership_down> Please investigate
1319 2011-02-03 13:56:21 <watership_down> all i ask
1320 2011-02-03 13:56:33 <x6763> who here hasn't seen this stuff before?
1321 2011-02-03 13:56:51 <watership_down> I put a video in this link: please spend 30 min and I am full of shit...fine...  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
1322 2011-02-03 13:57:10 <[Noodles]> what do i get for my 30min?
1323 2011-02-03 13:57:15 <watership_down> your life.
1324 2011-02-03 13:57:18 <[Noodles]> pay me some coins?
1325 2011-02-03 13:57:18 <noagendamarket> Id rather spend 30 min with your mum
1326 2011-02-03 13:57:30 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 1199000 1
1327 2011-02-03 13:57:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1199000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 3 seconds
1328 2011-02-03 13:57:33 <watership_down> watch it and listen.
1329 2011-02-03 13:57:48 <[Noodles]> nah, not if you don't pay me
1330 2011-02-03 13:57:56 <watership_down> then be a slave.
1331 2011-02-03 13:58:03 <[Noodles]> time is money
1332 2011-02-03 13:58:03 <watership_down> your choise.
1333 2011-02-03 13:58:09 <watership_down> money = slavery
1334 2011-02-03 13:58:10 altamic has joined
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1336 2011-02-03 13:58:10 altamic has joined
1337 2011-02-03 13:58:14 <ArtForz> LOL
1338 2011-02-03 13:58:17 <watership_down> LOL?
1339 2011-02-03 13:58:18 <x6763> haha
1340 2011-02-03 13:58:29 <noagendamarket> http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAntiTerrorist   theres  alink for ya
1341 2011-02-03 13:58:31 <watership_down> you dont know yhour history
1342 2011-02-03 13:58:37 <ArtForz> theres like 90% ancaps here
1343 2011-02-03 13:58:51 <davex__> you need to read more about money watership_down
1344 2011-02-03 13:59:02 <watership_down> here is one for you: http://www.joycerosenwald.com/Treason.htm
1345 2011-02-03 13:59:10 <x6763> watership_down: http://mises.org
1346 2011-02-03 13:59:38 <ArtForz> money != government fiat currency
1347 2011-02-03 13:59:42 <davex__> except diablod3, he sounds like anarcho-syndicalist or something
1348 2011-02-03 14:00:07 <watership_down> One day you _may_ see...
1349 2011-02-03 14:00:31 <[Noodles]> what you don't get is that we already know
1350 2011-02-03 14:00:33 <watership_down> until then read the link I pasted in. The truth is stranger than fiction... TRUST ME.
1351 2011-02-03 14:00:37 * noagendamarket likes endlessly scrolling websites
1352 2011-02-03 14:01:01 <x6763> watership_down: "There are no special words or documents you can use against those who set their own rules and ignore their own laws......" - noagendamarket - http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.msg43972#msg43972
1353 2011-02-03 14:01:23 <watership_down> So noodles what is a Sovereign Citizenship?
1354 2011-02-03 14:01:32 <noagendamarket> http://www.timecube.com/
1355 2011-02-03 14:01:35 <noagendamarket> lol
1356 2011-02-03 14:01:37 <ArtForz> ROFL
1357 2011-02-03 14:01:44 <ArtForz> good ole timecube
1358 2011-02-03 14:02:05 <watership_down> some of you might get this. others will laugh. this is to be expected.
1359 2011-02-03 14:02:23 <noagendamarket> we do get it
1360 2011-02-03 14:02:27 <watership_down> but if even ONE of you has the brains to get past the programming.
1361 2011-02-03 14:02:32 <davex__> is that loughner's site?
1362 2011-02-03 14:02:44 <watership_down> So noodles what is a Sovereign Citizenship?
1363 2011-02-03 14:02:54 <watership_down> Do you know?
1364 2011-02-03 14:03:03 sabalaba has joined
1365 2011-02-03 14:03:05 <Diablo-D3> back
1366 2011-02-03 14:03:08 <watership_down> and WHY is that so guarded?>
1367 2011-02-03 14:03:14 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: so, why do you think any government is legitimate?
1368 2011-02-03 14:03:38 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1369 2011-02-03 14:03:45 <watership_down> the gov has been hyjacked by the very people they were running from in the first place... just nobody knows this.
1370 2011-02-03 14:03:53 <ArtForz> ahahaha
1371 2011-02-03 14:04:03 <x6763> watership_down: why do you think it's ok to initiate force against others?
1372 2011-02-03 14:04:03 <Diablo-D3> but why do you think the US Government became legitimate at any point in history?
1373 2011-02-03 14:04:05 <watership_down> read the Dec. Of Independence Para 2
1374 2011-02-03 14:04:06 <noagendamarket> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBLpT1drkM    I tried ignoring a cop the other day....
1375 2011-02-03 14:04:15 <watership_down> the US gov is a corporation
1376 2011-02-03 14:04:19 <watership_down> literally
1377 2011-02-03 14:04:27 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: you have not answered the question: what proof do you have that the US Gov in _any_ form has ever been legitimate
1378 2011-02-03 14:04:30 <noagendamarket> funnnily enopugh he threw my keys in the bushes
1379 2011-02-03 14:04:42 <noagendamarket> lol
1380 2011-02-03 14:04:44 <watership_down> http://ppjg.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/the-occupation-of-the-united-states-orhow-lincoln-made-slaves-out-of-all-of-us/
1381 2011-02-03 14:04:57 <watership_down> http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm
1382 2011-02-03 14:05:07 <watership_down> Cross REFERENCRE
1383 2011-02-03 14:05:11 * noagendamarket has link fatigue
1384 2011-02-03 14:05:12 <ArtForz> 5th time you pasted that link, still not gaining you anything
1385 2011-02-03 14:05:12 <watership_down> PLEASE
1386 2011-02-03 14:05:48 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: do you believe that on July 4th 1776, the US Government was legitimate?
1387 2011-02-03 14:05:53 <ArtForz> try pasting it a few dozen times more until people wake up !1!!one
1388 2011-02-03 14:05:56 <watership_down> yes
1389 2011-02-03 14:06:08 <watership_down> it was until after the cival war
1390 2011-02-03 14:06:12 <watership_down> 1873
1391 2011-02-03 14:06:13 <Diablo-D3> Do you believe on June 21st 1788, when the Constitution was ratified, did it become a legitimate document?
1392 2011-02-03 14:06:23 <Diablo-D3> Because no government of man is legitimate.
1393 2011-02-03 14:06:24 <noagendamarket> there is no government...what we have now is complete anarchy :)
1394 2011-02-03 14:06:33 <Diablo-D3> The US Government, has not, and never has been, legitimate.
1395 2011-02-03 14:06:40 <Diablo-D3> No man has a right to rule any other man.
1396 2011-02-03 14:06:47 <x6763> --^
1397 2011-02-03 14:06:52 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: so what do you say to that?
1398 2011-02-03 14:06:55 <ArtForz> what Diablo-D3 said
1399 2011-02-03 14:06:56 <noagendamarket> does a bear shit in the woods ?
1400 2011-02-03 14:06:57 <Diablo-D3> Gonna post that link for a 6th time?
1401 2011-02-03 14:07:04 <watership_down> noagendamarket: if you are sovern you 'are the people' if you are a US Citzen you have the rights of a black slave.
1402 2011-02-03 14:07:17 <watership_down> please investigate
1403 2011-02-03 14:07:18 <ArtForz> no, a 6th and 7th time, it's the only way to be sure
1404 2011-02-03 14:07:22 <noagendamarket> what if Im australian ? lol
1405 2011-02-03 14:07:33 <noagendamarket> we still have a fucking queen
1406 2011-02-03 14:07:42 <[Noodles]> lol
1407 2011-02-03 14:07:42 <ArtForz> lol
1408 2011-02-03 14:07:54 xelister has joined
1409 2011-02-03 14:08:07 <soultcer> Damn, I always get this wrong. I always think that #bitcoin is a channel for discussing the Bitcoin software
1410 2011-02-03 14:08:07 <watership_down> people’s reactions when I mentioned the Commerce Game. Most wanted to ‘kill the messenger’ because their having been so conned by the alleged ‘authorities’ for their entire lives was too painful to contemplate. Those with neither eyes to see nor ears to hear wanted to argue with me.
1411 2011-02-03 14:08:08 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Answer me. How is any government of man legitimate?
1412 2011-02-03 14:08:15 <watership_down> they are not
1413 2011-02-03 14:08:17 * noagendamarket would be a queen if he wore a dress
1414 2011-02-03 14:08:18 <soultcer> Turns out it's a subchannel of #politics and #libertarians
1415 2011-02-03 14:08:19 altamic_ has joined
1416 2011-02-03 14:08:19 altamic_ has quit (Changing host)
1417 2011-02-03 14:08:19 altamic_ has joined
1418 2011-02-03 14:08:20 <ArtForz> is that like a beauty queen, but with a way more interesting contest? *ducks*
1419 2011-02-03 14:08:30 <watership_down> any under the UN is bankrupt --that is the requirement
1420 2011-02-03 14:08:32 <noagendamarket> if we wear a dress we can be a queen
1421 2011-02-03 14:08:43 <Diablo-D3> Any ever in the history of the world have not been legitimate
1422 2011-02-03 14:08:59 <noagendamarket> lmao
1423 2011-02-03 14:09:13 <noagendamarket> priscilla queen of the desert
1424 2011-02-03 14:09:14 <watership_down> Perhaps, but no where the Royalty has it's hands
1425 2011-02-03 14:09:38 <soultcer> watership_down: Mind keeping your discussions to a politics channel and not a software channel?
1426 2011-02-03 14:10:11 <ArtForz> why? it's not like theres any useful discussion here at the moment
1427 2011-02-03 14:10:21 * noagendamarket doesnt likea the rear admiral
1428 2011-02-03 14:10:32 <watership_down> I am a programmer, that and a thinker... that is why I wanted to share the riddle....is is a whole lot more than that. You people are actually smart and can do something with this information.
1429 2011-02-03 14:10:43 <watership_down> I am hoping that you can at least...
1430 2011-02-03 14:10:44 <Diablo-D3> This was true ten thousand years ago during the dynasty of Gilgamesh, and it is true now.
1431 2011-02-03 14:10:46 <noagendamarket> we are doing something
1432 2011-02-03 14:10:51 <Diablo-D3> No government of man is legitimate.
1433 2011-02-03 14:10:56 <watership_down> Bit coin is not enough
1434 2011-02-03 14:11:01 <ArtForz> what Diablo-D3 just said
1435 2011-02-03 14:11:05 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Someday you will recognize the truth of what I have said.
1436 2011-02-03 14:11:11 <Diablo-D3> Until then, you are a pawn of the government.
1437 2011-02-03 14:11:24 <watership_down> Ok please share with me. My mind is open, and I am listening:
1438 2011-02-03 14:11:36 <noagendamarket> dont fight the government ignore it
1439 2011-02-03 14:11:54 <watership_down> No... The govt was CREATED BY 'THE PEOPLE' FOR THE PEOPLE
1440 2011-02-03 14:11:59 <watership_down> not the other way
1441 2011-02-03 14:12:05 <noagendamarket> govt doesnt exist
1442 2011-02-03 14:12:05 <Diablo-D3> But who had the authorization to create such a government?
1443 2011-02-03 14:12:07 <Diablo-D3> The people did not.
1444 2011-02-03 14:12:16 <Diablo-D3> What document or power authorizes people to have a government?
1445 2011-02-03 14:12:18 <watership_down> Please read para 1,2 in the declaration of independance
1446 2011-02-03 14:12:19 <noagendamarket> govt=religion
1447 2011-02-03 14:12:25 <ArtForz> no man has the right to rule any other man.
1448 2011-02-03 14:12:30 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: yes, but who authorized them to write this document
1449 2011-02-03 14:12:35 <watership_down> we did
1450 2011-02-03 14:12:37 <davout> Diablo-D3: why would people need an authorization for having a govt?
1451 2011-02-03 14:12:43 <ArtForz> so any form of government is illegitimate by definition
1452 2011-02-03 14:12:45 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: but who are we? we are merely men.
1453 2011-02-03 14:12:54 <Diablo-D3> No man has a right to rule any other man.
1454 2011-02-03 14:12:58 <watership_down> The people (Sovern people did)
1455 2011-02-03 14:13:33 <davout> once you manage to be the ruler of yourself, you don't need to rule anyone else
1456 2011-02-03 14:13:36 <Diablo-D3> But the people do not have this power.
1457 2011-02-03 14:13:50 <Diablo-D3> The people cannot rule themselves as they are merely people.
1458 2011-02-03 14:13:50 <davout> this piece of spiritual knowledge was brought to you by bitcoin central
1459 2011-02-03 14:13:58 <noagendamarket> lol
1460 2011-02-03 14:14:02 <Diablo-D3> So again, I ask, what document or power has authorized the creation of governments?
1461 2011-02-03 14:14:02 <watership_down> they tricked everyone after the great depression to sign up for Social Security thus recieving benefits... but they had to check a box that said  'are you a US CIitizen' which removed ther soverneity
1462 2011-02-03 14:14:10 <Diablo-D3> The people, inherently, do not have this power.
1463 2011-02-03 14:14:11 <watership_down> please investigate that is all i asl
1464 2011-02-03 14:14:25 <davout> Diablo-D3: authorization is irrelevant if you don't have laws to base them on
1465 2011-02-03 14:14:26 <noagendamarket> asl?
1466 2011-02-03 14:14:28 <watership_down> We are the people
1467 2011-02-03 14:14:34 <watership_down> 'We the People'
1468 2011-02-03 14:14:38 <sipa> you are one person
1469 2011-02-03 14:14:39 <ArtForz> age sex location
1470 2011-02-03 14:14:39 <davout> 14/f/cali
1471 2011-02-03 14:14:40 <Diablo-D3> But there you go again, an already illegitimate government has tricked people? So what? It was illegitimate in 1776.
1472 2011-02-03 14:14:50 <noagendamarket> heh
1473 2011-02-03 14:14:54 <watership_down> the govt was created by the people
1474 2011-02-03 14:15:02 <Diablo-D3> But the people cannot create a government.
1475 2011-02-03 14:15:05 <Diablo-D3> No man may rule another man.
1476 2011-02-03 14:15:06 b1gdata has joined
1477 2011-02-03 14:15:11 <watership_down> the Constution was created as a HANDBOOK to run the govt!
1478 2011-02-03 14:15:23 <watership_down> written by thge people!
1479 2011-02-03 14:15:28 <noagendamarket> the constitutuion only applies to those who signed it
1480 2011-02-03 14:15:36 <noagendamarket> not to anyone else
1481 2011-02-03 14:15:42 <davout> we bitcoiners, have understood since some time already that brute force is the only way to go XD
1482 2011-02-03 14:15:45 <ArtForz> ^..
1483 2011-02-03 14:15:45 <watership_down> This has all forgotton... the schools DONT teach this
1484 2011-02-03 14:15:51 <noagendamarket> haha
1485 2011-02-03 14:15:55 <ArtForz> löl
1486 2011-02-03 14:16:01 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: yes, and who told the people they could run a government! who told them they could do this?!
1487 2011-02-03 14:16:13 <Diablo-D3> What document or power has authorized the people to create governments?
1488 2011-02-03 14:16:28 * davout facepalms
1489 2011-02-03 14:16:30 <b1gdata> it's called guns
1490 2011-02-03 14:16:35 <b1gdata> thats what authorizes them
1491 2011-02-03 14:16:41 * noagendamarket can see the gun in the room
1492 2011-02-03 14:16:42 <Diablo-D3> b1gdata: is that the worst that someone could threaten me with? death?
1493 2011-02-03 14:16:48 <davout> Diablo-D3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg
1494 2011-02-03 14:16:50 <watership_down> again... Diablo-D3 all I as is please what this video... I am not your enemy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBLpT1drkM
1495 2011-02-03 14:16:50 <Diablo-D3> That is not much of a power at all.
1496 2011-02-03 14:17:09 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: If you continue to accept any government as legitimate, you are an enemy of the people and you work for THEM.
1497 2011-02-03 14:17:13 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: Pretty much. And pain. And killing/foltering your family....
1498 2011-02-03 14:17:23 <Diablo-D3> soultcer: Is that it? That is not much of a power at all.
1499 2011-02-03 14:17:25 <soultcer> oh wait, folter is not a word
1500 2011-02-03 14:17:31 <soultcer> torture it is
1501 2011-02-03 14:17:31 <noagendamarket> heh
1502 2011-02-03 14:17:35 <watership_down> You can not LAWFULLY own a gun if your NOT Soverign.
1503 2011-02-03 14:17:45 <davout> or "the question" as we french people used to call it
1504 2011-02-03 14:17:50 <Diablo-D3> Even mere animals can destroy life. Are you an animal?
1505 2011-02-03 14:17:55 <davout> yup
1506 2011-02-03 14:17:55 * noagendamarket owns a potato gun
1507 2011-02-03 14:17:58 <watership_down> The Dec. Of Independence is for Sovereigns  ONLT
1508 2011-02-03 14:18:02 <watership_down> NOT US CITIZENS
1509 2011-02-03 14:18:04 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: I think so
1510 2011-02-03 14:18:10 <watership_down> very wll kept secret
1511 2011-02-03 14:18:18 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: But who authorized the creation of the document! What gives it power?
1512 2011-02-03 14:18:25 <watership_down> The People
1513 2011-02-03 14:18:28 TheAncientGoat_ has joined
1514 2011-02-03 14:18:28 <b1gdata> the gun
1515 2011-02-03 14:18:28 <watership_down> ead irt
1516 2011-02-03 14:18:30 <watership_down> read it!!!
1517 2011-02-03 14:18:38 <ArtForz> eat dirt!!!
1518 2011-02-03 14:18:45 TheAncientGoat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1519 2011-02-03 14:18:45 <soultcer> Hm, tasty
1520 2011-02-03 14:18:46 <noagendamarket> wee the people
1521 2011-02-03 14:18:51 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: But who gave the people this right!
1522 2011-02-03 14:18:57 <watership_down> The 'Federal' gov can take that 'right' away from you any time it wants....
1523 2011-02-03 14:18:57 <davout> authorization = authority = government = chicken and egg = potato
1524 2011-02-03 14:18:58 <soultcer> Guns?
1525 2011-02-03 14:18:58 <Diablo-D3> Your logic, it is circular!
1526 2011-02-03 14:19:12 <davout> :D
1527 2011-02-03 14:19:16 <noagendamarket> they have big guns
1528 2011-02-03 14:19:23 <noagendamarket> thats the answer
1529 2011-02-03 14:19:28 <Diablo-D3> No man has a right to rule anyone else! All governments of man are illegitimate!
1530 2011-02-03 14:19:33 <watership_down> Diablo-D3 can you please just watch this and come back and tell me I am nuts... BUT NOT TILL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBLpT1drkM
1531 2011-02-03 14:19:36 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: Feel free to declare your own state and declare war on the US govt I guess?
1532 2011-02-03 14:19:49 <watership_down> If you r soverign
1533 2011-02-03 14:19:51 <Diablo-D3> The sooner you realize this, the closer you will be to being truly free!
1534 2011-02-03 14:19:54 <watership_down> and ONLY iF
1535 2011-02-03 14:20:00 <davout> soultcer: or just live peacefully and long for spiritual growth
1536 2011-02-03 14:20:04 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Sovereign is a concept created by the governments of man!
1537 2011-02-03 14:20:07 <soultcer> Most people are pretty happy being unfree.
1538 2011-02-03 14:20:14 <watership_down> exactly
1539 2011-02-03 14:20:15 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: It is a name, it is a tool to restrict you
1540 2011-02-03 14:20:20 <sipa> it is a compromise
1541 2011-02-03 14:20:21 <watership_down> and the USA was an experiment
1542 2011-02-03 14:20:27 <sipa> between freedom and order
1543 2011-02-03 14:20:31 <Diablo-D3> If you consider yourself sovereign, you are submitting to the government!
1544 2011-02-03 14:20:34 <watership_down> where it was the first to ACTUALLY GIVE ITS PEOPLE SOVERIGNTY
1545 2011-02-03 14:20:51 <Diablo-D3> You are a slave if you submit to any other man! You are a slave if you allow anyone else to be your ruler!
1546 2011-02-03 14:20:52 <watership_down> it has been volunteerly taken away!
1547 2011-02-03 14:21:06 <watership_down> but the good news is WE THE PEOPLE can get it back!
1548 2011-02-03 14:21:20 <Diablo-D3> "WE THE PEOPLE" do not have authorization to create a more perfect union!
1549 2011-02-03 14:21:24 <b1gdata> it's a trick.. you'd take it back and just turn into another tyranny
1550 2011-02-03 14:21:27 <Diablo-D3> We, as Men, do not have that right!
1551 2011-02-03 14:21:28 * noagendamarket wnats to cake it back
1552 2011-02-03 14:21:29 <ArtForz> and btw, volunteerly is not a word.
1553 2011-02-03 14:21:42 <b1gdata> best to get rid of the state all together
1554 2011-02-03 14:21:46 <Diablo-D3> We, as Men, do not have the right to rule others! And no one is our ruler!
1555 2011-02-03 14:21:47 <ArtForz> noagendamarket: there is no cake.
1556 2011-02-03 14:22:02 <noagendamarket> what are you going to do if i refuse to ?
1557 2011-02-03 14:22:08 <noagendamarket> the cake is a lie!!!
1558 2011-02-03 14:22:08 <watership_down> if there are NO SOVREIGNS there is NO TREATIES... THERE IS NO CONSTUTION
1559 2011-02-03 14:22:17 <watership_down> You are not a Soverign citizen
1560 2011-02-03 14:22:18 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
1561 2011-02-03 14:22:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 105985 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 862 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 9 hours, 18 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 24336.75449631
1562 2011-02-03 14:22:23 <watership_down> you are a US Citizen!
1563 2011-02-03 14:22:27 <watership_down> volunteerily
1564 2011-02-03 14:22:31 <noagendamarket> no im not
1565 2011-02-03 14:22:34 <noagendamarket> lol
1566 2011-02-03 14:22:37 <ArtForz> volunteerly is still not a word.
1567 2011-02-03 14:22:42 <noagendamarket> heh
1568 2011-02-03 14:22:43 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Citizen itself is a word created by the government to control you!
1569 2011-02-03 14:22:46 <watership_down> are you a Soverign citizen?
1570 2011-02-03 14:22:50 <watership_down> exactly
1571 2011-02-03 14:22:57 <noagendamarket> Im a convict
1572 2011-02-03 14:22:58 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Do you call yourself a sovereign citizen? If you do, you are a slave!
1573 2011-02-03 14:23:01 <b1gdata> the word liberty implies that someone is giving you permission
1574 2011-02-03 14:23:02 <watership_down> Diablo-D3 I am agreeing with you!
1575 2011-02-03 14:23:11 <watership_down> it is all word magic
1576 2011-02-03 14:23:14 <davex__> Yay, diablominer works.
1577 2011-02-03 14:23:20 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: What exactly are you, may I ask?
1578 2011-02-03 14:23:21 <b1gdata> the government is granting you liberty (permission) this means you are their slave and they are granting you some liberties
1579 2011-02-03 14:23:22 <Diablo-D3> davex__: damn fucking straight it does.
1580 2011-02-03 14:23:23 <watership_down> the whole court system is too
1581 2011-02-03 14:23:25 <Diablo-D3> soultcer: a man.
1582 2011-02-03 14:23:33 <Diablo-D3> b1gdata: exactly.
1583 2011-02-03 14:23:43 <watership_down> govermemnt == mind control (literally translates to that)
1584 2011-02-03 14:23:46 <Diablo-D3> I have the freedoms handed down to me from a much greater power.
1585 2011-02-03 14:23:51 <soultcer> No, I mean, what do you do? Unless you sit at home all day and do nothing, you rely on some form of government
1586 2011-02-03 14:23:52 <Diablo-D3> Mere governments can do nothing.
1587 2011-02-03 14:24:09 <watership_down> I am becoming Sovereign
1588 2011-02-03 14:24:25 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: to "become Sovereign", you are becoming less than what you are.
1589 2011-02-03 14:24:25 <b1gdata> soultcer: I particpate in black markets and try to fuel a counter-economy that will hopefully one day undermine that economy that funds the government
1590 2011-02-03 14:24:26 * noagendamarket sits on his ass all day
1591 2011-02-03 14:24:50 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: To recognize the rule of others is to become a slave!
1592 2011-02-03 14:24:56 <ArtForz> hey, I do that too!
1593 2011-02-03 14:25:09 <davout> me too, except for i smoke weed too
1594 2011-02-03 14:25:11 <soultcer> b1gdata: O_o
1595 2011-02-03 14:25:12 <watership_down> Please read:
1596 2011-02-03 14:25:14 <watership_down> hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
1597 2011-02-03 14:25:23 <ArtForz> davout: you also sit on noagendamarkets ass?
1598 2011-02-03 14:25:36 <watership_down> does that seem strangely familar?
1599 2011-02-03 14:25:36 * noagendamarket wishes he could join davout for a smoke
1600 2011-02-03 14:25:41 <davout> ArtForz: yes
1601 2011-02-03 14:25:49 <watership_down> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the
1602 2011-02-03 14:25:54 <b1gdata> Agorists recognize that situation can not develop through political reform. Instead, it will arise as a result of market processes.
1603 2011-02-03 14:25:56 <davout> i tried to get weed in the mail for bitcoins from the dutch people
1604 2011-02-03 14:26:02 <davout> nobody wanted to make such a deal
1605 2011-02-03 14:26:03 <noagendamarket> hen in the course of history did the chicken cross the road ?
1606 2011-02-03 14:26:05 <watership_down> unalienable Rights?
1607 2011-02-03 14:26:16 <davex__> hmm, 19 kh/s on a 5970.  somethin'gs wrong...
1608 2011-02-03 14:26:20 <watership_down> you only have that  is you are a Soverign American
1609 2011-02-03 14:26:24 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Yes, and one of those unalienable rights is to not be ruled by anyone
1610 2011-02-03 14:26:29 <watership_down> US Citizen != Soverign American
1611 2011-02-03 14:26:48 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: calling yourself a sovereign american means you have become a slave to the system!
1612 2011-02-03 14:26:53 <davout> i'm so totally free, i cross the road when it says "do not cross"
1613 2011-02-03 14:27:26 TheAncientGoat_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1614 2011-02-03 14:27:29 <soultcer> davout: I think they can arrest you for that
1615 2011-02-03 14:27:43 TheAncientGoat has joined
1616 2011-02-03 14:27:54 <Diablo-D3> soultcer: is that the worst they can do?
1617 2011-02-03 14:28:03 <watership_down> Enough of the lies, deceit and dishonesty that has crafted a grand illusion upon the state of the nation. Enough of the false promises of security and comfort leading ever more dangerously towards tyranny.
1618 2011-02-03 14:28:13 <noagendamarket> tasers are invigorating especially on your nipples
1619 2011-02-03 14:28:23 <ArtForz> mmmh, tasers.
1620 2011-02-03 14:28:38 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: You sound like someone who has never been arrested or looked at the wrong end of a gun.
1621 2011-02-03 14:28:41 <watership_down> http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm
1622 2011-02-03 14:28:58 <b1gdata> I wanna make a big bittorrent site that charges small btc fees for each download, and pays the uploaders for sharing good stuff.   Do you think it would work ?
1623 2011-02-03 14:29:10 * noagendamarket  is going to bed 
1624 2011-02-03 14:29:21 <soultcer> b1gdata: Easy to game, I guess
1625 2011-02-03 14:29:24 <watership_down> If you are a Sovereign Citizen... the 'police' of the US Corp are just security guards of THe US CORP!
1626 2011-02-03 14:29:29 <davout> soultcer: i'm french, i eat cops for breakfast
1627 2011-02-03 14:29:31 <ArtForz> b1gdata: I'd say yes, but legally *very* iffy
1628 2011-02-03 14:29:38 <Diablo-D3> soultcer: as I said, the worst they can do is kill me.
1629 2011-02-03 14:29:44 <soultcer> davout: I always knew french cusine was weird :P
1630 2011-02-03 14:29:51 <noagendamarket> no one told me to go to bed I just decided too lol
1631 2011-02-03 14:29:52 <watership_down> Every county is under this same theat... not ust the US.
1632 2011-02-03 14:29:58 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: Doesn't that kind of bother you, getting killed?
1633 2011-02-03 14:30:12 <davout> soultcer: american cuisine is an oxymoron :)
1634 2011-02-03 14:30:20 <watership_down> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.msg43972#msg43972
1635 2011-02-03 14:30:21 <b1gdata> ArtForz, don't worry it wouldn't be in the US
1636 2011-02-03 14:30:22 <noagendamarket> soultcer life is a death sentence
1637 2011-02-03 14:30:25 <ArtForz> less oxy, more moron
1638 2011-02-03 14:30:36 <soultcer> b1gdata: It's like a private tracker, only that you can even gain money by playing it.
1639 2011-02-03 14:30:54 <soultcer> noagendamarket: Yeah, life is short and all, so better make the most of it?
1640 2011-02-03 14:31:04 <b1gdata> soultcer: you gain money when people vote that it was a good share... not based on sheer number of bytes downloaded
1641 2011-02-03 14:31:16 <b1gdata> soultcer: but yea thats the idea
1642 2011-02-03 14:31:22 <watership_down> TREASON -  A NOTICE TO PUBLIC SERVANTS-:     http://www.joycerosenwald.com/Treason.htm
1643 2011-02-03 14:31:41 <noagendamarket> soultcer its too short to read endlessly scrolling websites
1644 2011-02-03 14:31:44 <ArtForz> basically like a private tracker with user ratings, except with bitcoins instead of brownie points
1645 2011-02-03 14:31:49 <b1gdata> yep
1646 2011-02-03 14:31:54 <noagendamarket> and documents that peole sign
1647 2011-02-03 14:31:56 <ArtForz> sounds like a pretty good idea
1648 2011-02-03 14:32:05 <b1gdata> people would use it because they can get paid so why not use it
1649 2011-02-03 14:32:27 <soultcer> noagendamarket: Yeah that's why I prefer technical discussions in here. They are interesting. Instead we mostly get boring "I am a libertarian UARGH" stuff :-(
1650 2011-02-03 14:32:53 TheAncientGoat has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1651 2011-02-03 14:32:56 <watership_down> Diablo-D3 and all  Friends... Please watch this video. This is NOT THE RAMBLINGS OF SOME IDIOT CONSPRIARY THERORY: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.msg43972#msg43972
1652 2011-02-03 14:32:58 <noagendamarket> argumentarians
1653 2011-02-03 14:33:00 <ArtForz> soultcer: you're not easily entertained, are you?
1654 2011-02-03 14:33:15 TheAncientGoat has joined
1655 2011-02-03 14:33:16 <watership_down> we ARE the PEOPLE
1656 2011-02-03 14:33:21 <ArtForz> no
1657 2011-02-03 14:33:23 <watership_down> and it time to TAKE IT BACK!
1658 2011-02-03 14:33:26 <watership_down> yes
1659 2011-02-03 14:33:28 * noagendamarket thinks alex jones is lame
1660 2011-02-03 14:33:35 <watership_down> alex jones is a shill
1661 2011-02-03 14:33:46 <noagendamarket> heh
1662 2011-02-03 14:33:50 <watership_down> working for the mosad
1663 2011-02-03 14:34:18 <noagendamarket> hes doing it wrong then
1664 2011-02-03 14:34:27 <watership_down> most EVRERYTHING you see/read/hear about this subject is from SHILLS...
1665 2011-02-03 14:34:38 <watership_down> they want you to be asleep
1666 2011-02-03 14:34:40 <ArtForz> CAPS really EMPHASIZE your MESSAGE
1667 2011-02-03 14:34:45 <watership_down> sorry
1668 2011-02-03 14:34:46 <noagendamarket> lmao
1669 2011-02-03 14:34:59 <Diablo-D3> YES lets USE caps More
1670 2011-02-03 14:35:06 <davout> ArtForz: please don't write in caps like that, my hard drive is running low on space
1671 2011-02-03 14:35:20 <watership_down> Does anyone here agree with me?
1672 2011-02-03 14:35:34 <watership_down> any of you:
1673 2011-02-03 14:35:41 <watership_down> ?
1674 2011-02-03 14:35:41 <ArtForz> *crickets*
1675 2011-02-03 14:35:46 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1676 2011-02-03 14:35:51 <soultcer> ArtForz: Well, I am in a channel for technical discussion of some crypto software (hence the name bitcoin-dev).
1677 2011-02-03 14:35:58 <b1gdata> anybody can be manipulated and can end up working for the bad gusy without realizing it.
1678 2011-02-03 14:36:10 <watership_down> b1gdata: exactly
1679 2011-02-03 14:36:19 <watership_down> that is what a shill is (well sort of)
1680 2011-02-03 14:36:20 <b1gdata> so what though that applies to pretty much everybody
1681 2011-02-03 14:36:28 <ArtForz> soultcer: yeah, it's a bit of a misnomer, should really be #bitcoin-random
1682 2011-02-03 14:36:51 <watership_down> I have been tracking down this information for 9 years.... and I finally just figured it out
1683 2011-02-03 14:37:09 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: Yet you still think governments are legitimate
1684 2011-02-03 14:37:23 <watership_down> It is so simple that is it stupid... and it blantly in fron of you
1685 2011-02-03 14:37:36 <watership_down> the govs are controlled by the monarachy
1686 2011-02-03 14:37:43 TheAncientGoat has quit (Client Quit)
1687 2011-02-03 14:37:44 <watership_down> royal
1688 2011-02-03 14:37:56 * noagendamarket went down the rabbit hole a long time ago
1689 2011-02-03 14:37:59 <watership_down> IMF
1690 2011-02-03 14:38:00 TheAncientGoat has joined
1691 2011-02-03 14:38:02 <Diablo-D3> Yet the monarchy are mere people.
1692 2011-02-03 14:38:05 <Diablo-D3> What power do they have?
1693 2011-02-03 14:38:10 <watership_down> Money
1694 2011-02-03 14:38:20 <watership_down> Influence val Media
1695 2011-02-03 14:38:20 <noagendamarket> the queen has  a nice handbag ?
1696 2011-02-03 14:38:25 <watership_down> control via govt
1697 2011-02-03 14:38:30 <soultcer> ArtForz: Yes, that would be nice, sending all the boring stuff to bitcoin-random :-)
1698 2011-02-03 14:38:46 <watership_down> how is true freedom boring?
1699 2011-02-03 14:38:54 * noagendamarket is on the nod
1700 2011-02-03 14:38:59 <watership_down> that is what bitcoin is all about!
1701 2011-02-03 14:39:12 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: is that it?
1702 2011-02-03 14:39:21 <Diablo-D3> Money? Influence? Media?
1703 2011-02-03 14:39:23 <Diablo-D3> Is that it?
1704 2011-02-03 14:39:31 <watership_down> And gaining control of a currency
1705 2011-02-03 14:39:34 <watership_down> of course
1706 2011-02-03 14:39:38 <watership_down> it is a great idea
1707 2011-02-03 14:39:40 <Diablo-D3> Do you accept currency as legitimate?
1708 2011-02-03 14:39:50 <watership_down> but the Monarachy will just shut it down
1709 2011-02-03 14:40:02 <watership_down> and if you are a Slave to them they will have control of your wealth
1710 2011-02-03 14:40:04 <watership_down> no?
1711 2011-02-03 14:40:28 <Diablo-D3> But what is this so called wealth? More money?
1712 2011-02-03 14:40:29 <Diablo-D3> Property?
1713 2011-02-03 14:40:30 <watership_down> They have not yet... but if they gain control via govt they will...
1714 2011-02-03 14:40:43 <watership_down> Wealth == anything that makes you 'prosper'
1715 2011-02-03 14:40:44 <Diablo-D3> Who authorized mere men to have property?
1716 2011-02-03 14:41:06 <watership_down> Sovereignty
1717 2011-02-03 14:41:09 <soultcer> Diablo-D3: Again, guns!
1718 2011-02-03 14:41:12 <watership_down> google allodial title
1719 2011-02-03 14:41:27 <davex__> DiabloD3: so mere men have no rights to do anything.
1720 2011-02-03 14:41:29 <soultcer> If I point a gun at you, surely you won't deny then that I can have property.
1721 2011-02-03 14:41:34 <ArtForz> soultcer: variation of the golden rule, eh?
1722 2011-02-03 14:41:34 <davex__> they must just shrivel up and die.
1723 2011-02-03 14:41:44 <watership_down> Allodial title constitutes ownership of real property (land, buildings and fixtures) that is independent of any superior landlord. In common legal use, allodial title is used to distinguish absolute ownership of land by individuals from feudal ownership, where property ownership is dependent on relationship to a lord or the sovereign. Webster's first dictionary (1825 ed) says "allodium" is "land which is absolute property o
1724 2011-02-03 14:42:04 <watership_down>  Sovereign: A person, body or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler with limited power. -Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th edition pg. 1252
1725 2011-02-03 14:42:05 <davex__> at least, if you deny property rights anyway
1726 2011-02-03 14:42:14 <davout> MessageBox("Chargement", "Liste des salariés pour lesquels on fait une validation globale")
1727 2011-02-03 14:42:14 <Diablo-D3> davex__: men do not have the right to rule other men.
1728 2011-02-03 14:42:19 <davex__> of course
1729 2011-02-03 14:42:33 <watership_down> Diablo-D3: exactly
1730 2011-02-03 14:42:41 <soultcer> ArtForz: Well, it kinda is how the world worked for the last few million years. You are strong, you get to decide.
1731 2011-02-03 14:42:42 <watership_down> that is what the USA is built on
1732 2011-02-03 14:42:45 <watership_down> but that has been stolen
1733 2011-02-03 14:42:54 <watership_down> and we can re-claim it
1734 2011-02-03 14:42:55 <davex__> owning property != ruling other men
1735 2011-02-03 14:42:57 <watership_down> that is the whole point
1736 2011-02-03 14:43:05 <watership_down> running from them is NOT the solution
1737 2011-02-03 14:43:09 <watership_down> removing them IS
1738 2011-02-03 14:43:14 * davout thinks that trolls are probably not hungry anymore now
1739 2011-02-03 14:43:36 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1740 2011-02-03 14:43:38 <watership_down> again please refer to the Del. of Indep. Para 2
1741 2011-02-03 14:44:09 <watership_down> if you understand this will make perfect sense: http://www.gemworld.com/USAvsUS.htm
1742 2011-02-03 14:44:28 <watership_down> US = UNITED STATES CORPORATION
1743 2011-02-03 14:44:38 <watership_down> the the united states for America
1744 2011-02-03 14:44:45 <watership_down> 'united states for America'
1745 2011-02-03 14:44:48 <watership_down> VERY DIFFERENT
1746 2011-02-03 14:45:03 <watership_down> 99.999 % of the people DO NOT KNOW THIS
1747 2011-02-03 14:45:06 <watership_down> that makes them a slave
1748 2011-02-03 14:45:20 <watership_down> (BUT YOU CAN RE-CLAIM YOUR SOVERIGNTY)
1749 2011-02-03 14:45:34 <watership_down> which makes you
1750 2011-02-03 14:45:35 <watership_down> Sovereign: A person, body or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler with limited power. -Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th edition pg. 1252
1751 2011-02-03 14:45:44 <watership_down> The UNITED STATES corporation now uses your birth certificate, filed as a registered security with the United States Department of Commerce as collateral to secure credit from the world bank; England's private bank, thus making you liable for the national debt. Each 'strawman' birth certificate is considered to be a fictitious person, a second-class citizen, a corporation “Vessel of the United States” that was voluntari
1752 2011-02-03 14:45:54 <davex__> well dammit.  wonder if I need to do something with aticonfig. 19MH/s is not right
1753 2011-02-03 14:46:09 <Diablo-D3> davex__: run with -w 64
1754 2011-02-03 14:46:15 <davex__> tried, got 7 MH/s
1755 2011-02-03 14:46:19 <Diablo-D3> wtf.
1756 2011-02-03 14:46:22 <soultcer> watership_down: Again, you keep posting these links and stuff, but please keep in mind that this is not a politics discussion channel, it's a software channel
1757 2011-02-03 14:46:24 <Diablo-D3> did you accidently run two miners?
1758 2011-02-03 14:46:33 <ArtForz> smths seriously fucked
1759 2011-02-03 14:46:37 <davex__> idk, maybe the cpu miner is running too
1760 2011-02-03 14:46:40 <watership_down> It is a place of people who think
1761 2011-02-03 14:46:42 <Diablo-D3> yeah kill that
1762 2011-02-03 14:46:47 <watership_down> and can solve problems
1763 2011-02-03 14:47:01 <watership_down> Please understand.. this is beyond important
1764 2011-02-03 14:47:38 <watership_down> No disrecpect soultcer
1765 2011-02-03 14:47:56 <watership_down> I will stop
1766 2011-02-03 14:48:08 <watership_down> I wanted to share this with all here...
1767 2011-02-03 14:48:25 <watership_down> as I am becomeing fully de-programmed!
1768 2011-02-03 14:48:51 <soultcer> Isn't it enough to post the link once then?
1769 2011-02-03 14:48:53 <watership_down> this is the last time: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.msg43972#msg43972
1770 2011-02-03 14:49:14 <watership_down> thanks to all who contributed in this discussion and thanks for Bitcoin!
1771 2011-02-03 14:49:16 <ArtForz> argument is 12-A, this is abuse
1772 2011-02-03 14:50:46 <davex__> nope, cpu miner wasn't running.  system is very sluggish when i run diablominer though.
1773 2011-02-03 14:50:52 <ArtForz> hrrrm
1774 2011-02-03 14:51:04 <ArtForz> what does aticonfig --odgc say for load% ?
1775 2011-02-03 14:51:59 <davex__> current clocks: 725, GPU load: 75%
1776 2011-02-03 14:52:18 <ArtForz> hrrrm... that seems a bit low
1777 2011-02-03 14:52:24 <davex__> ya
1778 2011-02-03 14:53:04 <ArtForz> how does CPU load look?
1779 2011-02-03 14:53:53 <davex__> That seems OK, i think i hear a lot of IO happening
1780 2011-02-03 14:54:07 <ArtForz> hurrm, weird
1781 2011-02-03 14:54:17 <Diablo-D3> what driver?
1782 2011-02-03 14:54:20 <Diablo-D3> 11.1?
1783 2011-02-03 14:54:37 <ArtForz> yeah, what OS/sdk/catalyst ?
1784 2011-02-03 14:54:44 <Diablo-D3> 11.1 is known to be broken
1785 2011-02-03 14:54:46 <Diablo-D3> and Im not sure why
1786 2011-02-03 14:54:59 <ArtForz> it's ATI.
1787 2011-02-03 14:55:09 <ArtForz> they don't need reasons to break crap
1788 2011-02-03 14:55:23 <davex__> mmm don't remember..  yeah it's 11.1
1789 2011-02-03 14:55:24 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yeah but it didnt fix sdk 2.3 sucking
1790 2011-02-03 14:55:35 <Diablo-D3> davex__: go back to 10.12
1791 2011-02-03 14:55:37 <Diablo-D3> or 10.11
1792 2011-02-03 14:55:40 <davex__> ok
1793 2011-02-03 14:55:45 <ArtForz> ... yeah, 11.1 is known to cause problems
1794 2011-02-03 14:55:46 <davex__> wish i had used debs instead of their installer
1795 2011-02-03 14:55:54 <davex__> not sure how easy it is to uninstall
1796 2011-02-03 14:56:00 <ArtForz> not really hard
1797 2011-02-03 14:56:13 <Diablo-D3> you have to clean shit and then apt-get install --reinstall the debs
1798 2011-02-03 14:56:18 <Diablo-D3> I hate the installer because it fucks up packaging
1799 2011-02-03 14:56:30 <ArtForz> iirc /usr/share/fglrx/fglrx-uninstall.sh
1800 2011-02-03 14:56:31 <davex__> yeah i'll do it that way next time
1801 2011-02-03 14:56:42 <ArtForz> for unpackaged catalyst
1802 2011-02-03 14:56:43 <davex__> oh ok
1803 2011-02-03 14:58:18 <davex__> bbl, thanks
1804 2011-02-03 14:58:20 <ArtForz> I use 10.12 from experimental repo on sid
1805 2011-02-03 15:02:24 <molecular> even with 30Gh/s one can have a bad time. slush found only 5 blocks last 14 hours
1806 2011-02-03 15:03:44 <echelon> hmm
1807 2011-02-03 15:04:09 <xelister> How are actually radeons builded?
1808 2011-02-03 15:04:11 <slush> two 100000 rounds in the row :-/
1809 2011-02-03 15:04:18 <luke-jr> xelister: by computers obv
1810 2011-02-03 15:04:21 <Vladimir> yea, slush's pool has quite some bad luck lately
1811 2011-02-03 15:04:25 <xelister> the main chips (most hard part) is done in some 2 or 3 factories in Taiwan?
1812 2011-02-03 15:04:35 <molecular> slush, are a lot of people "playing the pool"?
1813 2011-02-03 15:04:56 <luke-jr> molecular: you can't play the pool
1814 2011-02-03 15:05:11 <molecular> I never said you could, but some believe
1815 2011-02-03 15:05:35 <xelister> because friend has contact to some China guy claiming to represent factory with radeons like 5970 for around 120-150 USD...  sounds liek scam?  What can be the lowest hard production cost for radeon 5970
1816 2011-02-03 15:05:39 <slush> 'playing the pool'?
1817 2011-02-03 15:05:55 shortcircuit has quit (Quit: leaving)
1818 2011-02-03 15:06:04 <molecular> what we discussed 1-2 days ago: switching pool
1819 2011-02-03 15:06:12 shortcircuit has joined
1820 2011-02-03 15:06:12 <luke-jr> molecular: my understanding is that the hashes pool miners generate, are only useful for the pool
1821 2011-02-03 15:06:25 <molecular> luke-jr, yes, I know
1822 2011-02-03 15:06:49 <molecular> some reason that you could switch to another pool or mine solor whenever shares go > some number
1823 2011-02-03 15:06:49 <slush> molecular: there is no other significant pool in the game
1824 2011-02-03 15:07:24 <luke-jr> slush: public*
1825 2011-02-03 15:07:28 <slush> molecular: jgarzik's is still quite small and have no public stats, so people don't know if it is better to stay with me or with him
1826 2011-02-03 15:07:42 <molecular> I'm still not convinced this makes sense at all
1827 2011-02-03 15:07:49 <molecular> the pool-switching idea
1828 2011-02-03 15:07:49 <luke-jr> slush: I will probably switch to jgarzik at some point, if his is open source and yours not. ;)
1829 2011-02-03 15:07:59 <slush> it may be little better than not switching
1830 2011-02-03 15:08:10 <slush> luke-jr: do whatever you want
1831 2011-02-03 15:08:20 <slush> I don't plan to open my pool
1832 2011-02-03 15:08:25 <luke-jr> fine.
1833 2011-02-03 15:08:31 <luke-jr> I doubt I'm alone in this sentiment
1834 2011-02-03 15:08:41 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1835 2011-02-03 15:08:51 <slush> well, in fact there is no reason to be on opensource pool
1836 2011-02-03 15:08:58 <slush> if you're not an operator
1837 2011-02-03 15:09:00 <luke-jr> principle.
1838 2011-02-03 15:09:06 <molecular> was just going to ask: what's the downside of it being closedsource
1839 2011-02-03 15:09:27 <molecular> if slush tries stealing bigtime, you will see that anyhow
1840 2011-02-03 15:09:28 <luke-jr> molecular: you can't fork it if you want to. :p
1841 2011-02-03 15:09:31 <Vladimir> slush: luke-jr: but little bit of blackmail, never hurts, lol
1842 2011-02-03 15:09:35 <xelister> no one knows?
1843 2011-02-03 15:09:44 <xelister> what can be minimum prices for 5970 radeons
1844 2011-02-03 15:09:53 <molecular> yeah, that's true, luke-jr, but seem from a purely mining perspective, it doesn't really matter
1845 2011-02-03 15:10:10 <slush> xelister: pricipally zero if you're stealing pieces from factory where are you working :)
1846 2011-02-03 15:10:11 <luke-jr> molecular: for example, slush could make donations mandatory
1847 2011-02-03 15:10:16 <molecular> I don't think one can make a 5970 for $160
1848 2011-02-03 15:10:24 <Vladimir> there are none of 5970  left in europe or china at reasonable prices
1849 2011-02-03 15:10:26 <luke-jr> molecular: why not?
1850 2011-02-03 15:10:36 <luke-jr> molecular: it costs Intel like $1 at most to make each CPU
1851 2011-02-03 15:10:45 * xelister 's friend seen chinese guys (claiming to represent factories) to sell 5970's fro like 150 USD - what the fuck
1852 2011-02-03 15:10:45 <xelister> slush: >_>
1853 2011-02-03 15:10:56 <xelister> Vladimir: not in china?
1854 2011-02-03 15:11:06 <molecular> luke-jr, you would have to buy chips from amd. do you think they sell them for such a low price?
1855 2011-02-03 15:11:07 <slush> luke-jr: I could and you could switch to other pool in this case
1856 2011-02-03 15:11:14 <slush> luke-jr: still no argument to swtich _now_ :)
1857 2011-02-03 15:11:23 <ArtForz> luke-jr: errr. no.
1858 2011-02-03 15:11:25 <luke-jr> molecular: no. I think the factories can easily make illegit sales.
1859 2011-02-03 15:11:40 <molecular> luke-jr, hmmm
1860 2011-02-03 15:11:43 <luke-jr> slush: yes, it is for me.
1861 2011-02-03 15:11:54 <Vladimir> well difficult to say during chinese new year, but at least 2 factories manufacturing 5970's told me that they are all sold, and do not expect more anytime soon
1862 2011-02-03 15:11:57 <luke-jr> molecular: China is not bound by US laws.
1863 2011-02-03 15:12:22 <ArtForz> again, because the supply of cypresses is drieing up
1864 2011-02-03 15:12:49 <molecular> slush, how is the cluster performance measured?
1865 2011-02-03 15:13:31 <luke-jr> molecular: also, I might want to run my own pool someday. :p
1866 2011-02-03 15:13:45 <luke-jr> supposedly using slush's pool has some overhead.
1867 2011-02-03 15:14:23 <molecular> luke-jr, you mean because of net latency?
1868 2011-02-03 15:14:28 <luke-jr> molecular: no idea why.
1869 2011-02-03 15:14:34 <slush> luke-jr: Are you sure your pool will have less overhead? :)
1870 2011-02-03 15:14:51 <luke-jr> slush: if all 50 BTC go to me, all 50 BTC is there :P
1871 2011-02-03 15:14:52 <molecular> luke-jr, and jgarzik's doesn't have that overhead-problem?
1872 2011-02-03 15:15:03 <ArtForz> any pool has the same problem
1873 2011-02-03 15:15:21 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you know, Im surprised religion is legal
1874 2011-02-03 15:15:25 <luke-jr> I'm assuming it has to do with the distribution of rewards being somewhat off from the distribution of random block gen
1875 2011-02-03 15:15:28 <Diablo-D3> Do you know what Jesus died for?
1876 2011-02-03 15:15:35 <Diablo-D3> He died for our sins.
1877 2011-02-03 15:15:36 <ArtForz> hookers and blow?
1878 2011-02-03 15:15:57 <slush> luke-jr: ?
1879 2011-02-03 15:16:03 <luke-jr> slush: nfc :P
1880 2011-02-03 15:16:04 <Diablo-D3> Government is a sin.
1881 2011-02-03 15:16:08 <ArtForz> = all "new" 58xx/59xx are leftover stock
1882 2011-02-03 15:16:09 <xelister> ArtForz: so who mades Cypresses?
1883 2011-02-03 15:16:12 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3 is loony. :P
1884 2011-02-03 15:16:13 <Vladimir> slush: what's your estimate of your pool's overhead in % as compared to solo mining with comparable GH/s power?
1885 2011-02-03 15:16:21 <luke-jr> Government is not sin.
1886 2011-02-03 15:16:29 <luke-jr> Government is empowered by God Himself.
1887 2011-02-03 15:17:00 <Diablo-D3> So, Jesus died because we have governments, and absolved us of our sin of ignorance.
1888 2011-02-03 15:17:15 <Diablo-D3> Ergo, Christians, all of them, are anti-government terrorists.
1889 2011-02-03 15:17:22 <xelister> and pedophiles
1890 2011-02-03 15:17:30 <Vladimir> slush: and assuming very little network latency, like 14ms, for example
1891 2011-02-03 15:17:32 <xelister> wait, that is funny because its partially true (priests ;)\
1892 2011-02-03 15:17:32 <slush> Vladimir: hard to say exactly. Teoretically it should be roundtrip time / ask rate %, but for example Diablo is performing new getwork before nonce range is out
1893 2011-02-03 15:17:43 <ArtForz> ATI/TSMC
1894 2011-02-03 15:17:43 <ArtForz> iirc fabbed in taiwan, packaged in malaysia
1895 2011-02-03 15:17:47 <slush> Application itself has no overhead, there is no reason why
1896 2011-02-03 15:17:48 <Diablo-D3> slush: only slightly before
1897 2011-02-03 15:17:51 <luke-jr> Christians know the State is instituted by God, and we are obliged to obey their laws.
1898 2011-02-03 15:18:09 <xelister> ArtForz: so factory in taiwan.  They could tell Ati  FU  and just fab 1000 more?
1899 2011-02-03 15:18:35 <slush> Diablo-D3: it would be easy to measure why to ask for new getwork when you know miner hashrate... easy patch? ;)
1900 2011-02-03 15:18:41 <ArtForz> errr... yes. but TSMC isn't exactly a backyard vendor
1901 2011-02-03 15:18:54 <Vladimir> slush: could you speculate on % just a ballpark number maybe?
1902 2011-02-03 15:18:54 <luke-jr> ;;echo Christians know the State is instituted by God, and we are obliged to obey their laws.
1903 2011-02-03 15:18:54 <gribble> Christians know the State is instituted by God, and we are obliged to obey their laws.
1904 2011-02-03 15:19:08 <Diablo-D3> slush: run with -d.
1905 2011-02-03 15:19:19 <Diablo-D3> it spits out when it ran out
1906 2011-02-03 15:19:36 <Diablo-D3> gribble: Christians only know the Government of God is instituted by God.
1907 2011-02-03 15:20:08 <slush> Vladimir: as I said, there is no other reason for overhead if pool is working
1908 2011-02-03 15:20:17 <Diablo-D3> The government of man is not the government of god
1909 2011-02-03 15:20:23 <slush> of course askrate, but it is the same as mining against own bitcoind
1910 2011-02-03 15:20:27 <luke-jr> ;;echo All governments have authority from God, even if they neglect their duty to recognize Christ as King. P.S. Unignore me. --luke-jr
1911 2011-02-03 15:20:27 <gribble> All governments have authority from God, even if they neglect their duty to recognize Christ as King. P.S. Unignore me. --luke-jr
1912 2011-02-03 15:20:43 <Vladimir> slush: ok, thanks, just wanted to have some confirmation of my math
1913 2011-02-03 15:21:04 <slush> what's your numbers?
1914 2011-02-03 15:21:11 <slush> I didn't measure this exactly
1915 2011-02-03 15:21:13 <Vladimir> fraction of a %
1916 2011-02-03 15:22:06 <Diablo-D3> huh
1917 2011-02-03 15:22:11 <Diablo-D3> why did I put luke on ignore
1918 2011-02-03 15:22:35 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: you're live on fuck you radio.
1919 2011-02-03 15:22:36 <luke-jr> probably something to do with tonal
1920 2011-02-03 15:22:49 <slush> I have alpha of push and it is significantly better. It is less influenced by quality of network and pool speed itself
1921 2011-02-03 15:23:22 <Vladimir> does it requires modification of client?
1922 2011-02-03 15:23:28 <Diablo-D3> But yeah, as I was saying
1923 2011-02-03 15:23:37 <Diablo-D3> Man does not have a right to form a government
1924 2011-02-03 15:23:42 <Diablo-D3> we have not been granted that right by god
1925 2011-02-03 15:23:56 <luke-jr> correct, but God does grant governments the authority
1926 2011-02-03 15:24:29 gejohn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1927 2011-02-03 15:24:31 <molecular> slush: nice!
1928 2011-02-03 15:24:31 <molecular> looking forward to push
1929 2011-02-03 15:24:31 <molecular> slush said there will be a proxy you can stick in between your client and the pool
1930 2011-02-03 15:24:36 <Vladimir> are you saying that since there is not god, the government has no authority?
1931 2011-02-03 15:24:47 <Vladimir> cool
1932 2011-02-03 15:24:57 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: but God has not.
1933 2011-02-03 15:25:04 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: He has.
1934 2011-02-03 15:25:08 <Diablo-D3> Where.
1935 2011-02-03 15:25:17 <luke-jr> where?
1936 2011-02-03 15:25:50 <luke-jr> by their very existance as a soveign nation, States have authority from God
1937 2011-02-03 15:25:54 <luke-jr> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm
1938 2011-02-03 15:25:55 <slush> Vladimir: I'll provide proxy for standard getwork and monkey patch for poclbm
1939 2011-02-03 15:26:19 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1940 2011-02-03 15:26:22 <slush> Vladimir: so you can run local proxy which communicate with pool with long polling
1941 2011-02-03 15:26:45 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: Except God does not trifle himself with such... small matters.
1942 2011-02-03 15:27:01 <Vladimir> I'd love to have some specs, so that I can modify my client too
1943 2011-02-03 15:27:05 <Diablo-D3> We cannot take it with us when we die, ergo, it doesn't really exist in any meaningful way.
1944 2011-02-03 15:27:34 <molecular> Vladimir, you could just wait for the proxy and patch and then look at the code
1945 2011-02-03 15:27:41 <Vladimir> sure
1946 2011-02-03 15:27:49 <slush> Vladimir: I decided to do this in some steps. In first step, I'm rewriting pool core to async server operation to handle thousands of open connections
1947 2011-02-03 15:27:58 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: the State's authority and duties affect the salvation of many
1948 2011-02-03 15:28:17 <Diablo-D3> Yes, but not in a positive way.
1949 2011-02-03 15:28:18 <slush> Vladimir: in this phase, getwork protocol is the same json, but when client open the connection, result is returned only when merkhle has changed
1950 2011-02-03 15:28:25 <molecular> slush, will dynamic ip-adresses be taken care of somehow?
1951 2011-02-03 15:28:31 <Vladimir> ok
1952 2011-02-03 15:28:34 <slush> Vladimir: then miner can iterate over nonce and change ntime for every second
1953 2011-02-03 15:28:36 <Diablo-D3> If you buy into the bullshit, you lose yourself
1954 2011-02-03 15:28:43 <slush> molecular: it does not care about IP
1955 2011-02-03 15:28:50 <molecular> so I make the connection?
1956 2011-02-03 15:28:54 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: yes, in a positive way, given a good State that fulfils its duties
1957 2011-02-03 15:29:01 <slush> molecular: of course yes
1958 2011-02-03 15:29:13 gejohn has joined
1959 2011-02-03 15:29:17 <slush> so with this change, there will be ~1 request per miner per minute
1960 2011-02-03 15:29:38 <slush> then I'll change protocol itself to be just TCP stream with binary data
1961 2011-02-03 15:29:46 <molecular> slush, will the proxy reconnect nicely on ip-change, though?
1962 2011-02-03 15:29:55 <slush> I'll throw away HTTP overhead + bunch of unused data in getwork
1963 2011-02-03 15:30:16 <slush> molecular: of course, when the connection will be closed for some reason, proxy open it again immediately
1964 2011-02-03 15:30:58 <molecular> slush, cool
1965 2011-02-03 15:31:21 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: but any State ran by man, by definition, is not good.
1966 2011-02-03 15:31:22 <slush> then when miner ask proxy for getwork(), proxy will manage ntime changes and get new, unique job
1967 2011-02-03 15:31:34 <Vladimir> good stuff, cannot wait
1968 2011-02-03 15:31:39 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: there are degrees of corruption
1969 2011-02-03 15:31:58 <molecular> slush, sounds fabulous!
1970 2011-02-03 15:31:58 <slush> also submitting work is async. When miner submit share to proxy, it will response immediately to not block miner. And submit share to pool then
1971 2011-02-03 15:32:01 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: a State need not be perfect, to fulfil its duties
1972 2011-02-03 15:32:18 <slush> so final getwork() latency will be <1ms on the same machine
1973 2011-02-03 15:32:22 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1974 2011-02-03 15:32:23 <Diablo-D3> Corruption is a binary state.
1975 2011-02-03 15:32:26 <slush> but you can also point plenty miners to the same local proxy
1976 2011-02-03 15:32:27 <Diablo-D3> Either you are, or you are not.
1977 2011-02-03 15:32:30 Kiba has joined
1978 2011-02-03 15:32:30 <molecular> slush, wohooo!
1979 2011-02-03 15:32:42 <Diablo-D3> slush: btw, wtf are you doing now?
1980 2011-02-03 15:33:03 <slush> Diablo-D3: just now? Chatting on IRC
1981 2011-02-03 15:33:04 <slush> ;)
1982 2011-02-03 15:33:13 <ArtForz> binary states: True, False, FileNotFound
1983 2011-02-03 15:33:14 <Vladimir> awesome, this should be even better than mining solo via bitcoind
1984 2011-02-03 15:33:22 <Diablo-D3> slush: no, what proxy?
1985 2011-02-03 15:33:30 <slush> my own proxy reference implementation
1986 2011-02-03 15:33:39 <watership_down> luke-jr: Most everything you read in papers/web/textbooks/tv is all coming from the same source, eg, Vatican or The Royal Monarchy. I have added links at the bottom of the page for those who choose to read on: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
1987 2011-02-03 15:34:05 <slush> Once this will be done and will work, I will be open to talk about low level protocol format
1988 2011-02-03 15:34:15 <slush> but for now, it will be the same json structure as it is now
1989 2011-02-03 15:34:28 <luke-jr> watership_down: what claim to authority do your links have?
1990 2011-02-03 15:34:39 <ArtForz> he repeats them a lot
1991 2011-02-03 15:34:41 <slush> Diablo-D3: between push based getwork() and current poll based one.
1992 2011-02-03 15:34:44 <luke-jr> lol
1993 2011-02-03 15:35:29 <Diablo-D3> slush: heh, sounds useless.
1994 2011-02-03 15:35:37 <slush> Definitely not
1995 2011-02-03 15:35:40 <ArtForz> eww
1996 2011-02-03 15:35:40 <Diablo-D3> changing the API would be superior.
1997 2011-02-03 15:35:49 <slush> Diablo-D3: yes, in next step
1998 2011-02-03 15:35:55 <slush> it is definitely in TODO
1999 2011-02-03 15:36:16 <watership_down> luke-jr: would it be more offical if I had the Monarchy's stamp on it?
2000 2011-02-03 15:36:26 <ArtForz> yes
2001 2011-02-03 15:36:30 <luke-jr> watership_down: try a Nihil Obstat.
2002 2011-02-03 15:36:32 <watership_down> 'authority'?!
2003 2011-02-03 15:36:44 <slush> but I want to improve things asap. Protocol change itself is for long run, because there must be wide agreement
2004 2011-02-03 15:36:46 <luke-jr> otherwise it's merely the fallible speculations of men
2005 2011-02-03 15:36:53 <watership_down> Authority == Brainwashing
2006 2011-02-03 15:37:29 <ArtForz> yep, not touched by His Noodly Appendage ;)
2007 2011-02-03 15:37:46 <watership_down> This has occurred through an onslaught of public policy and practice, government lies, deception, and propaganda, public media and education, and bureaucratic threat, duress and coercion, and the manipulation of the political, economic and legal system since the Civil War.
2008 2011-02-03 15:37:51 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2009 2011-02-03 15:38:07 <watership_down> “If the government/authorty is moving it’s lips, they’re lying.”
2010 2011-02-03 15:38:11 <luke-jr> watership_down: yawn.
2011 2011-02-03 15:38:29 <luke-jr> that sounds like political propaganda to me.
2012 2011-02-03 15:38:35 <ArtForz> it is
2013 2011-02-03 15:38:41 <watership_down> luke-jr: wow, that is deep.
2014 2011-02-03 15:38:52 <watership_down> big thinker
2015 2011-02-03 15:39:22 omglolbbq1 has left ()
2016 2011-02-03 15:39:57 <watership_down> luke-jr: of course it does... You have been programmed from a baby to think that.
2017 2011-02-03 15:40:11 <luke-jr> watership_down: do me a favour and overthrow the US government before you repent, ok?
2018 2011-02-03 15:40:14 xelister has joined
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2020 2011-02-03 15:40:14 xelister has joined
2021 2011-02-03 15:40:57 <luke-jr> actually, maybe you'd better focus on some smaller, more corrupt government
2022 2011-02-03 15:41:00 <luke-jr> just to do a trial run
2023 2011-02-03 15:41:29 <watership_down> luke-jr: An “invisible” and secret war is being waged against the united states of America for the benefit of a elite aristocracy and consortium of international bankers bent on attaining global empire at the expense of the American people and all the Citizens of the world.
2024 2011-02-03 15:42:03 <watership_down> wake up neo...
2025 2011-02-03 15:42:03 <ArtForz> look at me, I can copypasta random conspiracy drivel.
2026 2011-02-03 15:42:04 <luke-jr> watership_down: conspiracy theories too?
2027 2011-02-03 15:42:28 <luke-jr> watership_down: … it's FICTION
2028 2011-02-03 15:42:37 <watership_down> ArtForz: again. This is not a comspiracy. It is all on public record
2029 2011-02-03 15:42:41 <watership_down> literally
2030 2011-02-03 15:42:45 <watership_down> why cant you see that?
2031 2011-02-03 15:42:56 <luke-jr> watership_down: I'm not fan of the modern governments, but like it or not they have authority.
2032 2011-02-03 15:42:57 <watership_down> because you are programmed not to.
2033 2011-02-03 15:43:23 <watership_down> You like being RULED?
2034 2011-02-03 15:43:31 <watership_down> told what you can do?
2035 2011-02-03 15:43:32 <luke-jr> it's not about what you like
2036 2011-02-03 15:43:41 <watership_down> it absolutely is
2037 2011-02-03 15:43:45 <luke-jr> it is natural and just for man to have authority over him.
2038 2011-02-03 15:43:59 <watership_down> so if they outlaw programming or the internet... you would like it?
2039 2011-02-03 15:44:04 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2040 2011-02-03 15:44:05 xelister has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2041 2011-02-03 15:44:08 <watership_down> actually made it illegal
2042 2011-02-03 15:44:12 <luke-jr> nope, but they have the authority to do so
2043 2011-02-03 15:44:45 ForceMajeure has joined
2044 2011-02-03 15:45:03 <watership_down> And you have the authorty to remove the CORPORATION: http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm
2045 2011-02-03 15:45:05 <Vladimir> guess, I would move to another country, voting with my feet is what I do
2046 2011-02-03 15:45:10 xelister has joined
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2048 2011-02-03 15:45:10 xelister has joined
2049 2011-02-03 15:45:18 <luke-jr> watership_down: I have no authority whatsoever.
2050 2011-02-03 15:45:25 <luke-jr> Vladimir: all the other countries are worse.
2051 2011-02-03 15:45:27 <watership_down> Why move to another country
2052 2011-02-03 15:45:32 <watership_down> that was my first thought
2053 2011-02-03 15:45:38 <watership_down> this is you COUNTRY
2054 2011-02-03 15:45:41 <watership_down> not the govts
2055 2011-02-03 15:45:52 <Vladimir> I am very practical man, that's why
2056 2011-02-03 15:45:57 <luke-jr> I would gladly move to another country, if there was a better one.
2057 2011-02-03 15:45:58 <watership_down> read thew Declaration of Independance --firs 2 paragraphs
2058 2011-02-03 15:46:06 <watership_down> it is Literally our DUTY to do so
2059 2011-02-03 15:46:10 <luke-jr> watership_down: America's foundations are all evil.
2060 2011-02-03 15:46:14 <watership_down> to remove govt
2061 2011-02-03 15:46:15 <luke-jr> including that "Declaration"
2062 2011-02-03 15:46:20 <watership_down> please actually  read it
2063 2011-02-03 15:46:31 <luke-jr> it is based on heresy.
2064 2011-02-03 15:46:35 <watership_down> hhahaha
2065 2011-02-03 15:46:44 <watership_down> you think?
2066 2011-02-03 15:46:52 <watership_down> you feel free today?
2067 2011-02-03 15:46:58 <ArtForz> yep
2068 2011-02-03 15:47:01 <Vladimir> well, no offence to anyone, but US is fairly low on my list of 'countries to move to if s** hits the fun'
2069 2011-02-03 15:47:21 <luke-jr> watership_down: I don't idolize liberty.
2070 2011-02-03 15:47:28 <Kiba> duty?
2071 2011-02-03 15:47:37 <Kiba> what duty?
2072 2011-02-03 15:47:45 <luke-jr> obedience is a virtue. liberty is not.
2073 2011-02-03 15:47:57 <luke-jr> Vladimir: you must not have children.
2074 2011-02-03 15:48:13 <luke-jr> the US is the only nation that still gives lip service to parental authority.
2075 2011-02-03 15:48:14 <Vladimir> ?
2076 2011-02-03 15:48:25 <ArtForz> *chuckle*
2077 2011-02-03 15:48:30 <Kiba> Vladimir: he's just being strange
2078 2011-02-03 15:48:33 <luke-jr> parents have been unjustly stripped of their rights in all other countries
2079 2011-02-03 15:48:54 <watership_down> When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
2080 2011-02-03 15:49:00 <Vladimir> 'all other'?
2081 2011-02-03 15:49:25 <davout> tonal children ftw
2082 2011-02-03 15:49:28 <ArtForz> more likely 'all'
2083 2011-02-03 15:49:36 <luke-jr> Vladimir: except for some Muslim country
2084 2011-02-03 15:49:47 <luke-jr> yes, the US doesn't *really* respect parental rights either anymore
2085 2011-02-03 15:49:52 <luke-jr> but it DOES give lip service
2086 2011-02-03 15:49:56 <luke-jr> that's more than any other country
2087 2011-02-03 15:50:09 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2088 2011-02-03 15:50:13 <watership_down> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Righ
2089 2011-02-03 15:50:19 <Vladimir> what right's specifically you are talking about? like smacking them or something?
2090 2011-02-03 15:50:29 <luke-jr> watership_down: that is heretical.
2091 2011-02-03 15:50:42 <watership_down> Does that strick a note with you ? 'That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,'
2092 2011-02-03 15:50:53 <watership_down> is that a conspiracy?
2093 2011-02-03 15:50:57 <luke-jr> Vladimir: all matters relating to their upbringing
2094 2011-02-03 15:51:05 <bd_> luke-jr: I would just like to point out that arguments based on heresy or other religious bases are not convincing to anyone not of your faith
2095 2011-02-03 15:51:16 <watership_down> it was irrevelant
2096 2011-02-03 15:51:23 <watership_down> that was the whole point
2097 2011-02-03 15:51:27 <luke-jr> bd_: true enough, but they are objectively sound.
2098 2011-02-03 15:51:28 xelister has joined
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2100 2011-02-03 15:51:28 xelister has joined
2101 2011-02-03 15:51:47 <bd_> luke-jr: How is "That is heretical" an objectively sound reason for anything to be "evil"?
2102 2011-02-03 15:51:59 <Vladimir> that's a bit extreme and maximalistic point of view, don't you think? 'all countries' 'all rights' etc..
2103 2011-02-03 15:52:04 <luke-jr> bd_: heresy is by definition evil
2104 2011-02-03 15:52:07 <watership_down> if you read it  the reason they wrote it was to stop what is going on now! Also why they averave american thinks the Constution somehow gives them 'right'
2105 2011-02-03 15:52:12 <ArtForz> all absolutes are evil!
2106 2011-02-03 15:52:19 <watership_down> http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
2107 2011-02-03 15:52:23 <ArtForz> err.. wait...
2108 2011-02-03 15:52:27 <ArtForz> ;)
2109 2011-02-03 15:52:32 <bd_> luke-jr: Only from the point of view of the religious group that believes it to be heretical, and only if said religious group believes heresy to be evil.
2110 2011-02-03 15:52:45 <luke-jr> bd_: objectively.
2111 2011-02-03 15:52:48 <watership_down> They were trying to STOP evil.
2112 2011-02-03 15:53:00 <luke-jr> bd_: you are assuming false religions are in some way on par with the true religion.
2113 2011-02-03 15:53:08 <watership_down> what ever evil might try to form slavey of 'THe People' which is NOW!
2114 2011-02-03 15:53:26 <ArtForz> what true religion?
2115 2011-02-03 15:53:29 <watership_down> If you are a US Citizen you have NO RIGHTS... LITERALLY
2116 2011-02-03 15:53:34 <luke-jr> ArtForz: Catholicism ofc
2117 2011-02-03 15:53:37 xelister has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2118 2011-02-03 15:53:48 <Vladimir> frankly, most religions insult my intelligence, particularly during 'conversion' attempts
2119 2011-02-03 15:53:53 <watership_down> Rights are only for Sovereign Americans
2120 2011-02-03 15:53:54 <bd_> luke-jr: Actually, I'm assuming there's no objective way to determine what religion, if any, is the true religion, and even if there was there's no way to get everyone to agree on it, so there's really no point whatsoever on arguing based on religion
2121 2011-02-03 15:54:05 <luke-jr> bd_: bad assumpiton
2122 2011-02-03 15:54:09 <bd_> If you argue based on religion to a nonbeliever, you'll end up with no conclusion to your argument *shrug*
2123 2011-02-03 15:54:26 <watership_down> You remove you Sovereignty EVERYTIME YOU CHECK THE BOX ON YOUR TAXES that says 'US Citizen'
2124 2011-02-03 15:54:34 <watership_down> literally renew a contract
2125 2011-02-03 15:54:35 <bd_> If you insist on assuming there is a true religion, fine, but if you argue based on that, then our axioms differ, and we cannot have a meaningful discourse
2126 2011-02-03 15:54:44 <luke-jr> watership_down: I don't. What then?
2127 2011-02-03 15:54:54 <luke-jr> the only taxes I pay are stolen from my wages.
2128 2011-02-03 15:54:59 <watership_down> You may be an Actual Sovereign
2129 2011-02-03 15:55:05 <bd_> watership_down: Uh. Do you know what sovereignty means?
2130 2011-02-03 15:55:08 <watership_down> Sovereign: A person, body or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler with limited power. -Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th edition pg. 1252
2131 2011-02-03 15:55:19 <ArtForz> copypasta FTW!
2132 2011-02-03 15:55:22 <watership_down> yes i do actgually
2133 2011-02-03 15:55:38 <luke-jr> watership_down: by that definition, only the pope is sovereign, and even then with an asterisk
2134 2011-02-03 15:55:44 <watership_down> The cat is out of the bag and the Sovereign Civilian's Handbook is your ticket to true Sovereignty from the trappings of the institutional conspiracy for the deprivation of the rights of every Soil-born American.
2135 2011-02-03 15:55:51 <bd_> watership_down: Typically speaking, it refers to a body or group with absolute ruling power over a specific territory. Usually applied to governments and monarchs.
2136 2011-02-03 15:55:55 davex__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2137 2011-02-03 15:55:58 <watership_down> http://www.gemworld.com/USAvsUS.htm
2138 2011-02-03 15:55:58 <ArtForz> copypasta FTW!
2139 2011-02-03 15:56:08 <Vladimir> is there ignore feature here?
2140 2011-02-03 15:56:18 davex__ has joined
2141 2011-02-03 15:56:22 <bd_> Individual soverigns don't really work out too well though - soverigns have no ruling power above them, which means their interactions are anarchic.
2142 2011-02-03 15:56:25 <ArtForz> tried /ignore ?
2143 2011-02-03 15:56:31 <watership_down> ArtForz: this is not personal. It is meant to encourage thinking and realization of something that is HIDDEN
2144 2011-02-03 15:56:34 <watership_down> from U
2145 2011-02-03 15:56:45 <Vladimir> tried now :-)
2146 2011-02-03 15:57:08 <watership_down> davex__: that is what the media will tell you
2147 2011-02-03 15:57:10 <watership_down> but that media is the same ones running the banks...hmmmm.
2148 2011-02-03 15:57:28 <watership_down> connect the dots....   http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
2149 2011-02-03 15:57:31 <bd_> davex__ didn't say anything
2150 2011-02-03 15:57:34 <ArtForz> so we're at gobal conspiracy again
2151 2011-02-03 15:57:58 <davex__> wow, he's still going looks like
2152 2011-02-03 15:58:00 <watership_down> well.. if you would like to call it that..
2153 2011-02-03 15:58:09 <Vladimir> it's not working
2154 2011-02-03 15:58:13 <ArtForz> davex__: yup
2155 2011-02-03 15:58:43 <watership_down> but it is all on record... and it it no conspiracy that you are an American is it? But your NOT Sovereign.... You are a US Citizen --HUGE DIFFERENCE.... PLEASE LOOK THIS UP.
2156 2011-02-03 15:58:48 <bd_> watership_down: and, by the way, the States General were soverign before the declaration of independence
2157 2011-02-03 15:58:57 <watership_down> exactly
2158 2011-02-03 15:59:00 <bd_> as well as the Dutch East India Company
2159 2011-02-03 15:59:11 <davex__> so i've never actually used /ignore before, but here goes...
2160 2011-02-03 15:59:15 <ArtForz> actually I'm neither, but thanks for playing
2161 2011-02-03 15:59:18 <Vladimir> like this: "/ignore annoying_guy_nick" right
2162 2011-02-03 15:59:23 <bd_> (along with a number of other trading companies)
2163 2011-02-03 15:59:25 <watership_down> and the bankers came in an re-organized govt when it was bankrupt
2164 2011-02-03 15:59:42 <davex__> Vladimir, apparently not, doesn't work
2165 2011-02-03 16:00:03 <ArtForz> /ignore nick!userid@host
2166 2011-02-03 16:00:11 <bd_> or just /ignore nick!*@*
2167 2011-02-03 16:00:15 <ArtForz> yep
2168 2011-02-03 16:00:33 <davex__> oh
2169 2011-02-03 16:00:44 <luke-jr> watership_down: welcome to bitcoin, but don't assume everyone has the same agenda you do.
2170 2011-02-03 16:01:07 <luke-jr> just to follow-up with earlier, here is the treaty to abolish parental rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child
2171 2011-02-03 16:01:10 <watership_down> I will lay off... But please, I ask you just to read/investigate and think for youself here...
2172 2011-02-03 16:01:11 <watership_down>  There are a lot of people out there that don't seem to be exercising what should come naturally to us all; common sense. Do you remember what you learned about America in grade school? How they showed you how the American government was organized by the founding fathers to ensure freedom and equality for all people and that the judiciary is designed to allow for fairness in resolving discrepancies between the people?    Ho
2173 2011-02-03 16:01:12 <Vladimir> gotcha!
2174 2011-02-03 16:02:12 <luke-jr> watership_down: the founding fathers were heretics and founded America on heretical principles. I look forward to the fall of the American government.
2175 2011-02-03 16:02:38 <luke-jr> I voted* for Obama to hasten that fall. The sooner, the better.
2176 2011-02-03 16:02:50 <luke-jr> but only to be replaced with a proper State!
2177 2011-02-03 16:03:12 <davex__> haha.  yeah the gop winning last november kind of makes me nervous about my hyperinflation bet.
2178 2011-02-03 16:03:22 <watership_down> Obamama is part of the US CORPORATION. Did you even know that Govt was a corp? or is that a conspiracy too: http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm
2179 2011-02-03 16:04:41 <luke-jr> watership_down: ok, you're starting to sound like a political bot.
2180 2011-02-03 16:04:45 <watership_down> Friends.. .this is the reason that Bitcoin was created... to give you control of you own currency... But screw their 'system': a Corporation run by IMF/WOrld Bank terrorists.
2181 2011-02-03 16:05:06 <luke-jr> watership_down: I think Satoshi is more qualified to say why Bitcoin was created.
2182 2011-02-03 16:05:12 <ArtForz> so you have authority to say what bitcoin was created for?
2183 2011-02-03 16:05:16 <watership_down> luke-jr: use your head for what it is meant for. I am not your enemy.
2184 2011-02-03 16:05:19 <luke-jr> regardless, the purpose of Bitcoin *for me* is to further the Tonal system.
2185 2011-02-03 16:05:20 <ArtForz> who died and made you God?
2186 2011-02-03 16:05:40 <luke-jr> nothing relating to government, or conspiracy nonsense.
2187 2011-02-03 16:05:43 <watership_down> My creator.
2188 2011-02-03 16:06:05 <watership_down> luke-jr: how is the 'control' of your life/money non-sense
2189 2011-02-03 16:06:27 <watership_down> wouldn't that be the very reason you would work on a project like bitcoin? Freedom?
2190 2011-02-03 16:06:41 <watership_down> freedom from Tyrany
2191 2011-02-03 16:06:44 Vladimir has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2192 2011-02-03 16:07:06 <ArtForz> The purpose of bitcoin is to be a decentralized currency. Tools don't have agendas.
2193 2011-02-03 16:08:11 <sipa> things don't need a purpose to be useful
2194 2011-02-03 16:08:12 <watership_down> I am not asking for flame war. I am here because I believe you are able to understand this. 99.999% of people dont..  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
2195 2011-02-03 16:08:49 <watership_down> In Fact EVERYONE who is a 'US Citizen' is a slave by definition
2196 2011-02-03 16:08:58 <ArtForz> no, I think It's 57.314% of people
2197 2011-02-03 16:08:59 <luke-jr> watership_down: you are endorsing slavery to your whims.
2198 2011-02-03 16:09:02 <watership_down> Sovereign American are not slaves
2199 2011-02-03 16:09:14 <luke-jr> watership_down: the reason *I* work on Bitcoin is the Tonal system.
2200 2011-02-03 16:09:28 <watership_down> You are Sovereign Americans. You just volunteerly gave up your freedom.
2201 2011-02-03 16:09:39 <watership_down> without knowin it
2202 2011-02-03 16:09:48 <luke-jr> actually, I suspect numerous people here are not any kind of American
2203 2011-02-03 16:09:48 <watership_down> isn't that worth investigartion to you?
2204 2011-02-03 16:09:53 <ArtForz> yes, all people are 'merkins...
2205 2011-02-03 16:10:03 <luke-jr> also, America is not properly a State
2206 2011-02-03 16:10:07 <Diablo-D3> The act of being Sovereign Americans also gives up rights.
2207 2011-02-03 16:10:15 <luke-jr> Florida is. Nebraska is. Connecticut is. etc
2208 2011-02-03 16:10:15 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: his argument really applies to anyone
2209 2011-02-03 16:10:20 <watership_down> luke-jr: EXACTLY
2210 2011-02-03 16:10:37 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: everyone is a slave and watership_down wishes to keep them as such
2211 2011-02-03 16:10:48 <watership_down> the UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN CORPORATION is!!!  http://ppjg.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/the-occupation-of-the-united-states-orhow-lincoln-made-slaves-out-of-all-of-us/
2212 2011-02-03 16:10:51 Zarutian has joined
2213 2011-02-03 16:11:09 <watership_down> Diablo-D3: I am _trying_ to set you free....
2214 2011-02-03 16:11:17 <luke-jr> watership_down: Fine. USA sucks. Nothing new here. Bitcoin won't change it.
2215 2011-02-03 16:11:18 <bd_> luke-jr: Different definition of State, actuallly. The definition of Soverign State is quite specific, and would include the US.
2216 2011-02-03 16:11:22 <bd_> luke-jr: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo_Convention
2217 2011-02-03 16:11:28 <ArtForz> free from what? independent thought?
2218 2011-02-03 16:11:30 <Diablo-D3> Then why recognize the legitimacy of any government?
2219 2011-02-03 16:11:42 <watership_down> the 'US' is just a corporation
2220 2011-02-03 16:11:48 <watership_down> notice the caps
2221 2011-02-03 16:11:51 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: because government is a necessity.
2222 2011-02-03 16:11:52 <watership_down> know the diff?
2223 2011-02-03 16:12:03 <Diablo-D3> Lincoln did nothing after the end of the civil war because the government he was President of was not legitimate.
2224 2011-02-03 16:12:03 <luke-jr> watership_down: #bitcoin-offtopic
2225 2011-02-03 16:12:12 <Diablo-D3> Nor was the 20 some Presidents before him.
2226 2011-02-03 16:12:18 altamic_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2227 2011-02-03 16:12:20 <Diablo-D3> None of them had the right to rule.
2228 2011-02-03 16:12:23 <ArtForz> luke-jr: I think that point's arguable.
2229 2011-02-03 16:12:31 <watership_down> Real Govt yes.. But the US GOvt has been hyjacted for the last 140 years...
2230 2011-02-03 16:12:45 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: they have authority from God, not from any right
2231 2011-02-03 16:12:46 <Diablo-D3> watership_down: but the hijacked government was not legitimate either
2232 2011-02-03 16:12:53 <ArtForz> there is no "real" govt. they're all illegitimate.
2233 2011-02-03 16:12:54 xelister has joined
2234 2011-02-03 16:12:54 xelister has quit (Changing host)
2235 2011-02-03 16:12:54 xelister has joined
2236 2011-02-03 16:12:55 <watership_down> PERFECT
2237 2011-02-03 16:12:56 <Diablo-D3> But God has not given such authority.
2238 2011-02-03 16:13:01 <watership_down> that is my arguement
2239 2011-02-03 16:13:10 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: He has/does.
2240 2011-02-03 16:13:11 <bd_> ArtForz: I would argue that government is an inevitability, with any population of sufficient size. A high population density and no government is an unstable state; eventually someone will step up to take power, for better or for wirse.
2241 2011-02-03 16:13:16 <bd_> worse*
2242 2011-02-03 16:13:26 <watership_down> America is at risk of losing its cherished freedoms and becoming a tyrannical, totalitarian, high technology police state.
2243 2011-02-03 16:13:36 <luke-jr> watership_down: good. let it.
2244 2011-02-03 16:13:36 <watership_down> Our government is arrogant with power and forgetful of its responsibility to serve the American people.
2245 2011-02-03 16:13:42 <ArtForz> risk of? it's already there.
2246 2011-02-03 16:13:50 <watership_down> The government has stepped up its continued assault upon the people through litigation, foreclosures, forfeitures of property and the so-called “war on crime and drugs.”
2247 2011-02-03 16:14:01 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm
2248 2011-02-03 16:14:06 <bd_> The thing is, this does not necessarily imply we should just tear down the entire govt at the drop of a hat - returning to such a state raises the strong possibility that $random_crime_lord will rise up and take power, making things worse.
2249 2011-02-03 16:14:06 <watership_down> The government is bankrupt politically, morally and economically, and has not been honest in disclosing the consequences of its spending policies and priorities. Thus We the People are on the brink of an economic and political disaster.
2250 2011-02-03 16:14:26 <watership_down> We MUST all come together on this.
2251 2011-02-03 16:14:28 <watership_down> literally
2252 2011-02-03 16:14:29 <luke-jr> bd_: $random_crime_lord can only control so much area
2253 2011-02-03 16:14:46 <luke-jr> bd_: before he could get the whole US, the land would be split into multiple smaller nations
2254 2011-02-03 16:14:59 <luke-jr> *that* is what my ideal scenario is right now
2255 2011-02-03 16:15:18 <luke-jr> the more nations, the better the probability one is decent.
2256 2011-02-03 16:15:20 <watership_down> luke-jr: All I ask of you is to please watch that video linked to this page on youtube. If you still think I am crazy.. Ok. I tried.  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
2257 2011-02-03 16:15:26 <luke-jr> watership_down: LOL
2258 2011-02-03 16:15:37 <luke-jr> watership_down: all you ask of me, is to give up my freedoms?
2259 2011-02-03 16:15:38 <bd_> luke-jr: Certainly, there would be multiple local leaders stepping up, and you'd end up with a smaller system initially. Which doesn't mean that any of those areas are better than before. And it definitely doesn't mean that the "good" nations won't be crushed by their "bad" neighbors
2260 2011-02-03 16:15:38 <watership_down> Again. I am not your enemy. I am a fellow countryman.
2261 2011-02-03 16:15:55 <watership_down> We the People have a gut feeling that something is terribly wrong, a discontent and anger that indicates the extent of the exploitation, domination, and control to which we are subject, yet are often at a loss to either articulate or comprehend what is in fact occurring.
2262 2011-02-03 16:15:57 <luke-jr> watership_down: you want me to sign a (very long) contract where I give up my civil rights, just to watch a video?
2263 2011-02-03 16:16:11 <watership_down> The nature of the oppression is mostly invisible, “legal,” and economic. We the People are being taxed to death and indebted into “economic slavery” by individuals and institutions that have no moral or lawful authority under the American system of law.
2264 2011-02-03 16:16:14 <ArtForz> so basically... keep the current tyranny because another tyranny might replace it in the future?
2265 2011-02-03 16:16:18 <Diablo-D3> The only freedom someone does not have is to give up freedoms.
2266 2011-02-03 16:16:23 <bd_> luke-jr: Just because $local_crime_lord has to start small, doesn't mean he won't get ambitions to annex happyland next door after all. And with $crime_lord's oppressive tax rates, he'll have an easy time crushing the liberals next door, right?
2267 2011-02-03 16:16:27 <Diablo-D3> Ahh, the wonderful GPL, best religion ever.
2268 2011-02-03 16:16:29 <watership_down> We the American People have been systematically robbed and bankrupted by special interests, and public officials that profit immensely from political and legal systems put into place to serve their ends.
2269 2011-02-03 16:16:43 <watership_down> Laws are passed “by the Power structure and for the Power structure.” We the American People are taxed without representation by federal, State and local governments that no longer serve our best interests. Instead, they perpetuate and protect their own unlimited growth, at our expense.
2270 2011-02-03 16:16:57 <luke-jr> bd_: but with relaxed laws, we can assassinate $local_crime_lord without fear of a bigger crime lord (US gov't) going after us
2271 2011-02-03 16:17:03 <watership_down> Our military is presently under the command of foreign powers intent on creating a New World Order, a one-world government and world army through the militarization of the United Nations (UN).
2272 2011-02-03 16:17:03 <bd_> ArtForz: I'm saying, it has to be a pretty bad tyranny before tearing it down and starting from scratch is a good idea. And you need to have the population mostly united. And I feel neither condition is yet the case in the USA.
2273 2011-02-03 16:17:12 <ArtForz> I never said it was
2274 2011-02-03 16:17:13 <bd_> luke-jr: Relaxed laws? $local_crime_lord _is_ the law.
2275 2011-02-03 16:17:23 <watership_down> “A treaty signed by former President George Bush places the assessment and collection of all taxes, even local property taxes, under UN auspices and sets up an international enforcement corps and an international data bank.”
2276 2011-02-03 16:17:24 <luke-jr> bd_: not when he's assassinated.
2277 2011-02-03 16:17:29 <Diablo-D3> The US Gov _is_ the local crime lord
2278 2011-02-03 16:17:31 <b1gdata> it's better to be raped by small time thugs than by all powerful ones.
2279 2011-02-03 16:17:33 <luke-jr> watership_down: I want an answer. Why do you ask me to give up my rights?
2280 2011-02-03 16:17:39 <b1gdata> at least with the small time thugs you have a better chance to escape
2281 2011-02-03 16:17:42 <bd_> luke-jr: The momeny $local_crime_lord is a soverign, he's no longer a crime lord. He's a soverign ruler, and will (if he's smart) get his own police to protect him.
2282 2011-02-03 16:17:44 <watership_down> We the People have been programmed, conditioned and educated to see, feel, think, and act socially and “politically correct.”
2283 2011-02-03 16:17:53 <luke-jr> bd_: Just war doctrine applies.
2284 2011-02-03 16:17:55 <watership_down> Political correctness is social programming promulgated by the traditional Left—don’t ask, don’t speak, don’t dissent. It corresponds perfectly with the religious fundamentalist programming of the traditional Right.
2285 2011-02-03 16:17:59 <ArtForz> of course the good old rule of "might makes right" is still in effect
2286 2011-02-03 16:17:59 <bd_> Yes, a lot of the small-time rulers may get killed. Not necessarily because they're evil.
2287 2011-02-03 16:18:08 <watership_down> Both are mind numbing, mind-controlling propaganda machines.
2288 2011-02-03 16:18:13 <luke-jr> watership_down: I want an answer. Why do you ask me to give up my rights?
2289 2011-02-03 16:18:17 <watership_down> This is in alignment with a global design and strategy that’s so subtle, so invisible, yet so pervasive that very few of our best intellects have broken the veil.
2290 2011-02-03 16:18:29 <watership_down> Our flag-waving, hollow patriotism often doesn’t reflect the actual realities of America today as much as it worships the hollow, superficial and mythological symbols of our past.
2291 2011-02-03 16:18:30 <bd_> My point is, there is absolutely no fundamental reason for the ruler you end up with to be better than the one you started with
2292 2011-02-03 16:18:50 <watership_down> Most Americans still “believe” we’re living in a “free” country under a “free enterprise” system. Most Americans still trust and expect big government to take care of them, and believe that the government is well meaning and good. Yet we all  know there is no “free” lunch (especially the schoolchildren).
2293 2011-02-03 16:18:50 <luke-jr> bd_: except that there's more of them
2294 2011-02-03 16:18:56 <ArtForz> so now we're at appeal to authority.
2295 2011-02-03 16:19:06 <ArtForz> what is this? fallacy bingo?
2296 2011-02-03 16:19:08 <watership_down> We the People receive small fragments of crucial news and  information from the mainstream media (1% facts), but have  barely begun to comprehend American history, law,  economics and politics as a whole system.
2297 2011-02-03 16:19:11 <luke-jr> watership_down: are you ignoring me?
2298 2011-02-03 16:19:29 <watership_down> I didn't you colunteered
2299 2011-02-03 16:19:32 <watership_down> volunteered
2300 2011-02-03 16:19:38 <watership_down> Please see that video
2301 2011-02-03 16:19:39 <ArtForz> or maybe it's 7.13% facts
2302 2011-02-03 16:19:43 <luke-jr> watership_down: YOU ASKED ME TO VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP MY RIGHTS. WHY?
2303 2011-02-03 16:19:49 <bd_> luke-jr: The evil rulers are more ruthless, however - they will take advantages "good" rulers would not. And consider that the power bases that remain when government collapses are primarily organized crime and corporations; chances are one of the two will step up
2304 2011-02-03 16:19:54 <watership_down> that was the biggest decepetion in the history of the world
2305 2011-02-03 16:20:04 <watership_down> Without the whole global picture, We the People are  hopelessly enslaved. We must break through this veil of  deception and lies.
2306 2011-02-03 16:20:21 <watership_down> We must come together as a new nation and rediscover America for the all the people, regardless of race, creed, sex, or color. This is our vision of rediscovering America.
2307 2011-02-03 16:20:29 <luke-jr> watership_down: WATCHING THAT VIDEO REQUIRES ADOBE FLASH. ADOBE FLASH HAS A LONG CONTRACT YOU MUST SIGN TO DOWNLOAD. THAT CONTRACT REQUIRES ME TO GIVE UP RIGHTS.
2308 2011-02-03 16:20:39 <prax> anyone want to try to help me with an Internet Explorer problem? =)
2309 2011-02-03 16:20:41 <watership_down> All allodial land and lawful “money” (i.e., gold/silver) in the    united states of America has been “hypothecated” to the       Federal Reserve Bank since 1913 as collateral and “payment”          against an unpayable federal debt.
2310 2011-02-03 16:20:44 <ArtForz> juke-jr: pwned
2311 2011-02-03 16:20:52 <tcatm> prax: aptitude install firefox
2312 2011-02-03 16:21:06 <prax> no I got it fixed by using IETab in FF
2313 2011-02-03 16:21:13 <prax> some certain website requires IE
2314 2011-02-03 16:21:16 <watership_down> ok I will stop... But please, if any of this get to your right brain please see:   http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
2315 2011-02-03 16:21:19 <prax> but it wont hold my login
2316 2011-02-03 16:21:26 <prax> idk if it is how my IE is setup or what
2317 2011-02-03 16:21:30 <luke-jr> ArtForz: he can't answer, can he? :P
2318 2011-02-03 16:21:35 <b1gdata> lol is he asking for btc donations for the rant ?
2319 2011-02-03 16:21:37 <prax> been doing this on some websites I need for business
2320 2011-02-03 16:21:40 <watership_down> I am still her
2321 2011-02-03 16:21:44 <b1gdata> I've gotta try that sometime
2322 2011-02-03 16:21:44 <bd_> luke-jr: Sure there might be a lot of people you consider "good" lying about. However would they really step up? Could they assert the military/police power needed to protect themselves from the more ruthless members of society with a vested interest in power? And could they resist annexation, either from other "evil" rulers or from other pre-established developed nations?
2323 2011-02-03 16:21:46 <watership_down> here just being polite
2324 2011-02-03 16:21:54 <watership_down> yes
2325 2011-02-03 16:22:06 <luke-jr> bd_: I'm not sure I care.
2326 2011-02-03 16:22:10 <watership_down> but only a Sovereign American has RIGHTS!
2327 2011-02-03 16:22:14 <watership_down> US Citizens DONT
2328 2011-02-03 16:22:18 <watership_down> understand rthat
2329 2011-02-03 16:22:21 <luke-jr> bd_: I would have the freedom to rule over and protect my own family. That is all I need.
2330 2011-02-03 16:22:30 <bd_> luke-jr: Only temporarily.
2331 2011-02-03 16:22:32 <luke-jr> bd_: as it is, protecting my family has a huge liability.
2332 2011-02-03 16:22:42 <luke-jr> the US government will protect the criminals.
2333 2011-02-03 16:22:51 slush1 has joined
2334 2011-02-03 16:23:16 <bd_> luke-jr: I'm not going to respond to that unless you clarify what you mean. Too much chance I'd be setting myself up for a strawman argument.
2335 2011-02-03 16:23:21 <luke-jr> I know this from personal experience.
2336 2011-02-03 16:23:48 <watership_down> luke-jr: the worst type of slavery is _thinking_ your are free when you ARE REALLY a SLAVE!
2337 2011-02-03 16:23:57 <ArtForz> <watership_down> but only a Sovereign American has RIGHTS! ... thanks for clearing that up for the rest of the world
2338 2011-02-03 16:24:13 <luke-jr> my children were kidnapped by a government employee 4 years ago. the State assisted them in their kidnapping, and even demanded I pay the kidnappers child support, for the 3 years it took to prove my innocence.
2339 2011-02-03 16:24:23 <watership_down> Strawman in legal terms means your PUBLIC person
2340 2011-02-03 16:24:27 <watership_down> Person = Legal Fiction
2341 2011-02-03 16:24:36 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2342 2011-02-03 16:24:37 <watership_down> look it up in blacks dictionary of law
2343 2011-02-03 16:24:40 <luke-jr> watership_down: shut up.
2344 2011-02-03 16:24:40 <ArtForz> luke-jr: yup, shit like that happens
2345 2011-02-03 16:24:40 slush1 is now known as slush
2346 2011-02-03 16:24:51 slush has quit (Changing host)
2347 2011-02-03 16:24:51 slush has joined
2348 2011-02-03 16:25:03 <prax> people oft misuse the term "legal fiction"
2349 2011-02-03 16:25:10 <luke-jr> at least with the US government down, I could have just shot the kidnapper.
2350 2011-02-03 16:25:16 <bd_> luke-jr: I understand you had a bad experience. And I'm not saying the current system is perfect - indeed, it has a LOT of flaws. However, destroying the gov't doesn't automatically make anything better.
2351 2011-02-03 16:25:19 <watership_down> oh that is a conspiracy too? http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/iamnotaperson.html
2352 2011-02-03 16:25:37 <luke-jr> bd_: destroying the current gov't allows me to defend my family.
2353 2011-02-03 16:25:46 <ArtForz> with that url, yes
2354 2011-02-03 16:25:49 <prax> how did yr kid get kidnapped?
2355 2011-02-03 16:25:51 <luke-jr> if someone threatens us, I shoot them. End of story.
2356 2011-02-03 16:25:51 <watership_down> Person - Black's Law Dictionary 6th Edition, pg. 791, defines 'person' as follows: "In general usage, a human being (i.e. natural person), though by statute term may include labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in bankruptcy, or receivers."
2357 2011-02-03 16:25:54 <bd_> luke-jr: Sure, you can shoot the kidnapper, but the kidnapper can shoot you. So can anyone else.
2358 2011-02-03 16:26:05 <luke-jr> bd_: so I setup automated turrets. :D
2359 2011-02-03 16:26:10 <watership_down> it is all 'legal' word magic
2360 2011-02-03 16:26:20 <bd_> luke-jr: And again, if you remove the government, another one forms. One which probably won't like random murder much either. It tends to disrupt society.
2361 2011-02-03 16:26:21 dwdollar has left ()
2362 2011-02-03 16:26:25 <prax> you're still doing it wrong
2363 2011-02-03 16:26:36 <watership_down> he Federal Reserve Bank and its foreign principals/creditors control the federal United States government, and directs all legislative action and public policy through its lending and monetary policies.
2364 2011-02-03 16:26:38 <luke-jr> bd_: I'm not talking about murder, just self defense
2365 2011-02-03 16:26:52 <watership_down> The U.S. Congress is simply a “trustee” for the continued bankruptcy of the United States government corporation.
2366 2011-02-03 16:27:00 <bd_> The new gov't might have bigger things on its mind than messing with the parenting relations of children, of course.
2367 2011-02-03 16:27:02 <watership_down> The IRS is a collection agency for the International Monetary Fund (IMF) collecting from a bankrupt Federal Reserve Bank (FRB).
2368 2011-02-03 16:27:09 <bd_> watership_down: you've said you'd shut up at least twice now and you're still talking
2369 2011-02-03 16:27:17 <bd_> just saying.
2370 2011-02-03 16:27:18 <watership_down> Your income tax does not go to the United States government, but to service your individual obligation toward the federal debt.
2371 2011-02-03 16:27:19 <luke-jr> lol
2372 2011-02-03 16:27:30 <prax> preaching to the choir I think
2373 2011-02-03 16:27:41 <watership_down> “When a well-packaged web of lies  has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” —Dresden James
2374 2011-02-03 16:27:46 <luke-jr> bd_: the new gov't also will want to gain recognition from its citizens.
2375 2011-02-03 16:27:52 <ArtForz> wow, a new copypasta
2376 2011-02-03 16:27:57 <watership_down> U.S. citizens cannot “own” true and lawful title to land unless you’ve updated the land patent and removed any encumbrances or liens as a American National OR sovereign “state” Citizen.
2377 2011-02-03 16:27:58 <ArtForz> and there I thoguht it was getting boring
2378 2011-02-03 16:28:01 <bd_> luke-jr: Heh, why? All they need to do is _control_ their citizens
2379 2011-02-03 16:28:15 <luke-jr> bd_: no individual can do that alone.
2380 2011-02-03 16:28:18 <watership_down> The United States government corporation has quit-claim deeded all the property in the united states of America to the foreign principles/creditors as collateral against the un- payable debt.
2381 2011-02-03 16:28:36 <watership_down> When you “purchased” your property or real estate, you    received a “deed,” not an allodial title.
2382 2011-02-03 16:28:54 <bd_> luke-jr: Recognition makes it easier, sure. But after the gov't falls, there'll be enough chaos that people will want some source of power. No contract enforcement = no business = no food in the grocery stores = unhappy people
2383 2011-02-03 16:28:55 <watership_down> A “deed” only represents equitable or beneficial interest in a trust property “owned” by the State acting as a trustee.
2384 2011-02-03 16:29:08 <watership_down> Without an allodial title held in your sovereign capacity, banks loaning you so-called “money” can attach a lien on    your property until it’s “discharged” in full.
2385 2011-02-03 16:29:20 <watership_down> know that?
2386 2011-02-03 16:29:32 <watership_down> If you fail to pay the mortgage the bank will foreclose on the property. Even if it’s paid in full with FRN’s after thirty-    years, you still don’t hold the true title, only possession in fee     simple.
2387 2011-02-03 16:29:45 <luke-jr> bd_: not exactly. contract enforcement is not necessary for contracts.
2388 2011-02-03 16:29:46 <watership_down> U.S. citizens do not “own” their “motor vehicles.” As trustee, the State holds the true title, and has legal “ownership” in the property.
2389 2011-02-03 16:29:57 <luke-jr> bd_: I can still do business with other Catholics.
2390 2011-02-03 16:29:59 <watership_down> You get a “Certificate of Title” that certifies that you are a “beneficial holder.” The legal “owner” has the right to require the “beneficial holder” to get it registered with State- issued plates, have a State-issued driver’s license and insurance.
2391 2011-02-03 16:30:14 <prax> we get it
2392 2011-02-03 16:30:15 <watership_down> In essence, you are renting the use of a “government-owned” vehicle. The legislative intent of the Motor Vehicle Code is to regulate the commercial operation of motor vehicles only.
2393 2011-02-03 16:30:23 <bd_> luke-jr: Not strictly necessary, no, but it limits business rather sharply, I'm afraid. After all, how do you know if someone is _really_ a Catholic?
2394 2011-02-03 16:30:26 <watership_down> There are hidden liens on your “person,” your property and your future productivity toward “discharging” the un- payable federal debt.
2395 2011-02-03 16:30:36 <watership_down> that boring?
2396 2011-02-03 16:30:39 <ArtForz> yep
2397 2011-02-03 16:30:50 <watership_down> ArtForz is a SLAVE and love is?
2398 2011-02-03 16:31:03 <ArtForz> of course
2399 2011-02-03 16:31:04 <watership_down> Make sure you know that.
2400 2011-02-03 16:31:12 <luke-jr> bd_: well, if they break a contract once, I just don't do biz with them again, and warn others
2401 2011-02-03 16:31:21 <bd_> luke-jr: And are you implying non-catholics wouldn't be able to do business with you? it makes business a lot more difficult. Yes, people can adapt. However, it means a lot of short-term disruption to the supply chain. The devaluation of fiat currency won't help one bit, either.
2402 2011-02-03 16:31:23 <watership_down> Most Americans are fundamentally bankrupt, and have not been paid real “money” for working in their entire lives. Ninety-two percent of all American’s are bankrupt at age sixty-two.
2403 2011-02-03 16:31:34 <bd_> luke-jr: and this short-term disruption is important. People will want stability quickly.
2404 2011-02-03 16:31:39 <watership_down> Unless you get educated and protect what remains of your assets now, Americans will wake up, one day soon as Thomas Jefferson warned, shake their weary heads and wonder what the heck happened.
2405 2011-02-03 16:31:46 <watership_down> ...
2406 2011-02-03 16:31:51 <bd_> luke-jr: this makes it a bit easier to gain control once you have some critical mass of support.
2407 2011-02-03 16:32:03 <luke-jr> bd_: non-Catholics might be able to, if they prove trustworthy somehow
2408 2011-02-03 16:32:03 <watership_down> That is what this is about
2409 2011-02-03 16:32:12 <bd_> now, of course, if there was a proper revolution, I suppose the revolutionaries would already have that mass of support
2410 2011-02-03 16:32:16 <watership_down> luke-jr: this is not about relegion
2411 2011-02-03 16:32:25 <luke-jr> watership_down: everything is about religion.
2412 2011-02-03 16:32:28 <bd_> You just have to hope the government they set up won't be Evil. Or won't go Evil.
2413 2011-02-03 16:32:29 <watership_down> Homelessness and the proliferation of social, racial and political violence are advanced symptoms of undeclared State and federal bankruptcies.
2414 2011-02-03 16:32:41 <watership_down> We the People and our political leaders have unwittingly “sold out” our country, our freedoms and our children’s future for privileges, benefits, temporary entitlements and the short-term “success” of a privileged few.
2415 2011-02-03 16:32:47 <ArtForz> hahaha
2416 2011-02-03 16:32:57 * Kiba yawn
2417 2011-02-03 16:33:00 <Kiba> this is boring
2418 2011-02-03 16:33:00 <watership_down> We the People and our political leaders have unwittingly “sold out” our country, our freedoms and our children’s future for privileges, benefits, temporary entitlements and the short-term “success” of a privileged few.
2419 2011-02-03 16:33:02 <ArtForz> yeah
2420 2011-02-03 16:33:13 <Kiba> that democracy for ya
2421 2011-02-03 16:33:14 <luke-jr> bd_: or that one of the other 50+ governments isn't evil
2422 2011-02-03 16:33:14 <watership_down> understand that?
2423 2011-02-03 16:33:20 <luke-jr> bd_: 1/50 is better odds than 1/1
2424 2011-02-03 16:33:21 <ArtForz> copypasta it a few more times for great justice!
2425 2011-02-03 16:33:25 <watership_down> U.S. citizens are not “Citizens” at all, but subjects and property of the District of Columbia, residents and franchisees of the bankrupt federal United States government corporation organized under municipal law.
2426 2011-02-03 16:33:40 <Kiba> watership_down: I am still not fundamentally bankrupted
2427 2011-02-03 16:33:42 <watership_down> You will discover that the Constitution for the united states of America and the Bill of Rights does not apply to “U.S. citizens.”
2428 2011-02-03 16:33:48 <bd_> luke-jr: I'd also like to make one point about your specific experience. The child abuse laws are there for a reason - there are a lot of drug addicts, etc, who leave their kids in abhorrent conditions, and their kids need to be removed from them immediately. However, no system is perfect, and false positives are occasionally unavoidable. I'm sorry you got caught up in one.
2429 2011-02-03 16:33:50 <luke-jr> soultcer: Xunie Sirius
2430 2011-02-03 16:33:51 <watership_down> U.S. citizens are subjects and property governed under “statutory,” Admiralty and Maritime law, Military and Martial law under the undisclosed presumption of an international contract. U.S. citizens have no constitutional protections or unalienable rights, only privileges and “rights” granted by the government. Legal “persons,” born or naturalized in the federal United States were created exclusively by the 14th
2431 2011-02-03 16:34:16 <luke-jr> bd_: the government does NOT have the authority to kidnap children, no matter how bad they consider the parents to be.
2432 2011-02-03 16:34:25 <bd_> However, destroying the system entirely is no solution. Either you leave the kids who really need help to suffer, or you build a new system for child protection, which will also have false positives.
2433 2011-02-03 16:34:28 <watership_down> Please understand this...99.9999% of 'US Citizens' DONT
2434 2011-02-03 16:34:50 <Kiba> watership_down: citation needed
2435 2011-02-03 16:34:51 <bd_> luke-jr: Okay, so you argue that no matter what the parents do to their children, they should be given full deference?
2436 2011-02-03 16:34:52 <luke-jr> bd_: the father's authority over his children's upbringing is soveirgn
2437 2011-02-03 16:34:53 <ArtForz> so parents should have legal right to use their children for slave labor?
2438 2011-02-03 16:34:57 <bd_> hahahaha, nice netsplit!
2439 2011-02-03 16:35:15 <luke-jr> bd_: if the parents do soemthing criminal, the State can imprison them. short of that, correct.
2440 2011-02-03 16:35:24 <bd_> luke-jr: Okay, under what logic do you argue that that is the case?
2441 2011-02-03 16:35:34 <ArtForz> now that sounds more reasonable.
2442 2011-02-03 16:35:46 davout has quit (Quit: i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net))
2443 2011-02-03 16:35:49 <luke-jr> bd_: the father is the highest authority over his children. the State does not have authority over how he raises them.
2444 2011-02-03 16:35:51 <bd_> luke-jr: and, what do you define criminal, here?
2445 2011-02-03 16:36:03 <luke-jr> bd_: murder, for example.
2446 2011-02-03 16:36:03 <bd_> luke-jr: Again, what makes the father have authority over his children?
2447 2011-02-03 16:36:08 <luke-jr> bd_: God.
2448 2011-02-03 16:36:19 Vladimir_ has joined
2449 2011-02-03 16:36:22 <bd_> luke-jr: Okay, now give me an argument that will convince non-catholics.
2450 2011-02-03 16:36:26 <ArtForz> property rights! *ducks*
2451 2011-02-03 16:36:57 <bd_> luke-jr: As a practical matter, you cannot convert all of the US into a catholic theocracy.
2452 2011-02-03 16:37:15 <luke-jr> bd_: theocracy is not required for a proper state.
2453 2011-02-03 16:37:19 <sipa> no
2454 2011-02-03 16:37:34 <bd_> luke-jr: It is required, however, for your argument of parental soverginity to hold
2455 2011-02-03 16:37:39 <luke-jr> all States are morally obliged to recognize the Church's supreme authority, but they are not necessarily theocratic.
2456 2011-02-03 16:37:48 <sipa> ehm
2457 2011-02-03 16:37:49 <sipa> wtf?
2458 2011-02-03 16:37:56 <bd_> luke-jr: Again, this only holds for theocracies
2459 2011-02-03 16:38:09 <bd_> A non-theocracy, by definition, doesn't care one whit what the Church has to say
2460 2011-02-03 16:38:13 <luke-jr> no, it holds for all States.
2461 2011-02-03 16:38:18 <bd_> Therefore you must argue based on other premises
2462 2011-02-03 16:38:31 <sipa> what about other churches?
2463 2011-02-03 16:38:45 <sipa> which church should they give supreme authority to?
2464 2011-02-03 16:38:45 <luke-jr> the State's duty/purpose is to serve the natural family, and the family of the Church
2465 2011-02-03 16:38:52 <bd_> luke-jr: It matters not what you believe States should be morally obliged to do. The fact is, by definition, a state that defers to the Church's authority is theocratic.
2466 2011-02-03 16:38:53 <luke-jr> sipa: false religions are not on par with the true religion
2467 2011-02-03 16:39:00 <bd_> A state that does not, is not.
2468 2011-02-03 16:39:03 <bd_> Simple as that.
2469 2011-02-03 16:39:06 <sipa> who are we to judge which is the true one?
2470 2011-02-03 16:39:11 <b1gdata> the black pope
2471 2011-02-03 16:39:12 <luke-jr> bd_: no, a theocracy is one which gives the civil authority to bishops and such
2472 2011-02-03 16:39:12 <bd_> I, for one, do _not_ want to live in a theocracy.
2473 2011-02-03 16:39:32 <luke-jr> sipa: we aren't. God has revealed only the one true relgion.
2474 2011-02-03 16:39:40 <sipa> so you are told, by people
2475 2011-02-03 16:39:41 <bd_> luke-jr: Hmm. okay. Let me correct myself then.
2476 2011-02-03 16:39:58 <bd_> Not all states choose to accept the authority of your Church.
2477 2011-02-03 16:40:09 <luke-jr> bd_: that is a corruption, an abuse of authority.
2478 2011-02-03 16:40:22 <bd_> luke-jr: Which is the view of your church.
2479 2011-02-03 16:40:29 <luke-jr> the States do not have a choice in the matter really.
2480 2011-02-03 16:40:30 harryjr has joined
2481 2011-02-03 16:40:40 <luke-jr> bd_: it is the objective truth of the matter.
2482 2011-02-03 16:40:48 <bd_> luke-jr: You must understand, those arguments do not convince other states. They do not convince other people either, unless they're already Catholic.
2483 2011-02-03 16:41:05 <sipa> why can't you leave the decision what to believe to people themselves, instead of states?
2484 2011-02-03 16:41:12 <luke-jr> bd_: no argument will, short of conversion.
2485 2011-02-03 16:41:30 Vladimir_ has quit (Client Quit)
2486 2011-02-03 16:41:31 <luke-jr> sipa: people can decide what to believe, but the State is obliged to recognize the Church
2487 2011-02-03 16:41:42 <sipa> how do you define recognize?
2488 2011-02-03 16:41:57 brunner has joined
2489 2011-02-03 16:42:01 <luke-jr> sipa: the limits on the State's authority are defined by the Church's teaching
2490 2011-02-03 16:42:13 <bd_> luke-jr: Indeed. So do you see now how this line of argument is fruitless? Do you propose to construct a state which defers to the catholic church?
2491 2011-02-03 16:42:23 <ArtForz> so ... theocracy-by-proxy
2492 2011-02-03 16:42:32 <bd_> And if so, how do you expect to convince the people living in the vicinity to accept rule by a state which defers to the catholic church?
2493 2011-02-03 16:42:36 <sipa> i don't see how that is not a theocracy
2494 2011-02-03 16:42:38 <luke-jr> bd_: the State can do whatever it decides is best, within the realm of its authority
2495 2011-02-03 16:42:53 <sipa> and you let the decision what is its authority to a church?
2496 2011-02-03 16:43:02 <luke-jr> the decision is by God
2497 2011-02-03 16:43:05 <b1gdata> clearly catholocism has caussed more human suffering and bloodshed than any other organization known to man.
2498 2011-02-03 16:43:12 <luke-jr> the Church teaches with the authority from God
2499 2011-02-03 16:43:21 <luke-jr> b1gdata: FUD
2500 2011-02-03 16:43:28 <sipa> but the church interprets the decisions of god
2501 2011-02-03 16:43:35 <luke-jr> the Church teaches them.
2502 2011-02-03 16:43:35 <sipa> and is done by humans
2503 2011-02-03 16:43:40 <sipa> who can make mistakes
2504 2011-02-03 16:43:44 <luke-jr> infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost.
2505 2011-02-03 16:43:53 <bd_> luke-jr: A state which has realms to its authority beyong those defined by its geopolitical borders, is by definition not soverign. But that's not important. By point is, as a purely practical matter, arguing based on church authority is not a very practical way to go about doing things.
2506 2011-02-03 16:43:56 <Kiba> sipa: ignore luke-jr...
2507 2011-02-03 16:43:59 <b1gdata> the church killed off thousands of native populations, raped millions of women, took all the loot back to the vatican where it sits today
2508 2011-02-03 16:44:05 <sipa> Kiba: i'll have no other choice
2509 2011-02-03 16:44:17 <luke-jr> b1gdata: that is a lie.
2510 2011-02-03 16:44:22 <Kiba> sipa: he's a religious nutcase who think evolution is a lie
2511 2011-02-03 16:44:31 <b1gdata> luke-jr: which part ?
2512 2011-02-03 16:44:42 <b1gdata> luke-jr: clearly spain did all tha tstuff and brought the loot back to the pope
2513 2011-02-03 16:44:44 <luke-jr> b1gdata: the Church has never killed anyone, or raped.
2514 2011-02-03 16:44:49 <luke-jr> Spain is not the Church.
2515 2011-02-03 16:44:55 <b1gdata> spain was using the flag of the churchb
2516 2011-02-03 16:44:57 <ArtForz> "no true scotsman"
2517 2011-02-03 16:44:58 <b1gdata> and the symbols of the church
2518 2011-02-03 16:45:03 <luke-jr> Spain is not the Church.
2519 2011-02-03 16:45:05 <b1gdata> and they claimed they were doing it in the name of the church
2520 2011-02-03 16:45:06 <b1gdata> yes it is
2521 2011-02-03 16:45:09 <luke-jr> Spain is a State.
2522 2011-02-03 16:45:19 <b1gdata> spain was operating as a wing of the church
2523 2011-02-03 16:45:25 <bd_> b1gdata: actually that was the Spanish government, under Philip II, as well as a number of generals who had dreams of conquest going on, who used an authorization from the Vatican to conduct missionary activities in the americas as a justification for the exploitation of the americas
2524 2011-02-03 16:45:32 <bd_> also the portugese, I think
2525 2011-02-03 16:45:34 <sipa> and how is this different than states leaving their decision for what is their authority to a church?
2526 2011-02-03 16:45:50 <bd_> the church had little direct oversight.
2527 2011-02-03 16:45:50 <sipa> spain apparently made a mistake in its understanding of the god's will
2528 2011-02-03 16:46:02 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm not saying it was wrong, simply that it wasn't the Church regardless.
2529 2011-02-03 16:46:02 <b1gdata> bd_, they claimed all that land in the name of the pope, and gave him a huge share of the spoils
2530 2011-02-03 16:46:04 <bd_> But Spain was really one of the most staunchly Catholic states of the time. *shrug*
2531 2011-02-03 16:46:17 <afed> the pope personally authorized the crusades
2532 2011-02-03 16:46:23 <luke-jr> the Crusades were good.
2533 2011-02-03 16:46:32 <bd_> b1gdata: Right, they were operating under the framework of universal rule, and felt the authorization from the Pope gave them legal title to the americas, and thus rights to forbid other states from going there.
2534 2011-02-03 16:46:35 <afed> "god wills it, go out and kill every arab you can find"
2535 2011-02-03 16:46:36 <luke-jr> but were still carried out by a State, not the Church.
2536 2011-02-03 16:46:52 <bd_> b1gdata: it was back in the days before the idea of a 'State' wasn't really developed properly
2537 2011-02-03 16:46:57 <afed> those were not seperate entities in those times
2538 2011-02-03 16:47:11 <afed> the church was very much a part of government
2539 2011-02-03 16:47:20 <luke-jr> afed: they were always separate entities, the State being subject to the Church.
2540 2011-02-03 16:47:31 <bd_> moreover, there's no evidence the Pope was actually directly involved - the inquiry from Spain may have been answered by some low-level member of the clergy
2541 2011-02-03 16:47:37 <b1gdata> luke-jr: thats like blaming the gun instead of blaming the guy who held the gun and pulled the trigger
2542 2011-02-03 16:47:39 <luke-jr> just because I am subject to the State does not mean I *am* the State, or act in its authority.
2543 2011-02-03 16:47:42 satamusic has joined
2544 2011-02-03 16:48:06 <bd_> but it is wrong to say that the church had direct authority over King Philip II. King Philip II was a soverign ruler of Spain (and later the Kingdom of Portugal) and made his own decisions
2545 2011-02-03 16:48:31 <luke-jr> bd_: well, the pope could have deposed him, but that would take extreme circumstances
2546 2011-02-03 16:48:52 <luke-jr> not merely the abuse of some lower ranking officers
2547 2011-02-03 16:49:15 <ArtForz> yeah, whats a few million heathens between friends.
2548 2011-02-03 16:49:27 <bd_> luke-jr: States have changed the state religion before, Philip could've done the same. And yes, yes, it's corruption of power, etc etc. I know you think that. But that's about as effective, practically speaking, as the Holy Roman Emperor going up and claiming to rule the entire world from what is today Germany
2549 2011-02-03 16:49:57 <luke-jr> bd_: could have, but would have been gravely immoral to do so
2550 2011-02-03 16:49:58 <bd_> Incidentally, Philip II was also the Holy Roman Emperor
2551 2011-02-03 16:50:12 <bd_> luke-jr: I know you think that. But it doesn't matter.
2552 2011-02-03 16:50:18 <luke-jr> it does matter in the big picture.
2553 2011-02-03 16:50:24 <bd_> Your moral system claims to be absolute, but is not.
2554 2011-02-03 16:50:28 <luke-jr> it is.
2555 2011-02-03 16:50:45 <bd_> luke-jr: Yes, someone adhering to a moral system which claims to be absolute would claim it to be absolute.
2556 2011-02-03 16:50:50 <harryjr> Original American was not governed by the Vatican. It was the very reason they battled the British to create America.
2557 2011-02-03 16:51:04 <b1gdata> if I'm a mobster and I tell a group of thugs (a state) that it's fine by me if they go rob that bank... and they do it.. and they bring the loot back to your house and give it to you....  you're part of the plot
2558 2011-02-03 16:51:40 <luke-jr> b1gdata: except that there was nothing wrong with what the popes approved
2559 2011-02-03 16:51:45 gavinandresen has joined
2560 2011-02-03 16:51:52 <bd_> luke-jr: Which is my point: Arguing from religious authority cannot gain you any support beyond your fellow believers. Which is why I strongly suggest, for your own sake, to think up some arguments not based on religious justifcations to act as additional support.
2561 2011-02-03 16:51:59 <luke-jr> b1gdata: they didn't approve rape and murder.
2562 2011-02-03 16:52:03 <b1gdata> luke-jr: the pope approved the greatest bloodbath ever
2563 2011-02-03 16:52:16 <b1gdata> of course the pope was well aware of what it means to "claim the land"
2564 2011-02-03 16:52:18 <luke-jr> b1gdata: the greatest bloodbath ever was in the atheistic 20th century
2565 2011-02-03 16:52:45 <luke-jr> bd_: on topics that are inherently related to the Church, it is unavoidable.
2566 2011-02-03 16:53:20 <luke-jr> bd_: the *only* rational basis for morality is the Church
2567 2011-02-03 16:53:30 <b1gdata> the church has so much blood on it's hands its completely unavoidable.  :D
2568 2011-02-03 16:53:38 <bd_> luke-jr: Which is, again, something which is unconvincing to anyone not in your faith
2569 2011-02-03 16:54:03 <luke-jr> bd_: correct, anyone non-Catholic is inherently blind to objective morality.
2570 2011-02-03 16:54:19 <ArtForz> rofl
2571 2011-02-03 16:54:34 <b1gdata> hillarious stuff
2572 2011-02-03 16:54:51 <bd_> luke-jr: Incidentally, and I ask this in all seriousness:
2573 2011-02-03 16:55:16 <bd_> Consider a hypothetical scenario in which there are two churches, who both claim to be the ONLY true church.
2574 2011-02-03 16:55:23 <bd_> If I am born into the wrong one, how do I know?
2575 2011-02-03 16:55:32 <luke-jr> bd_: the four marks of the Church
2576 2011-02-03 16:55:36 <bd_> Assume their teachings are identical, but they happen to have a different pope.
2577 2011-02-03 16:55:40 <bd_> luke-jr: marks?
2578 2011-02-03 16:55:42 <luke-jr> Unity, Holiness, Catholicity, and Apostolicity
2579 2011-02-03 16:55:52 bk128 has joined
2580 2011-02-03 16:55:55 <luke-jr> oh, you mean like the Great Schism?
2581 2011-02-03 16:56:06 <harryjr> luke-jr: Catholics have blood running into the  Vatican...then to the Monarchy.  All roads lead to Rome and all Blood leads to the Vatican.
2582 2011-02-03 16:56:06 <bd_> luke-jr: How am I to identify if my church has these? Please keep in mind my own church is teaching me which marks to look for.
2583 2011-02-03 16:56:19 <luke-jr> bd_: history I guess
2584 2011-02-03 16:56:56 <luke-jr> harryjr: beware of slander. it's a serious crime.
2585 2011-02-03 16:56:57 <bd_> luke-jr: Assume both churches have a very very long history.
2586 2011-02-03 16:57:00 <harryjr> The Pope is a great man.. Just ask the queen!
2587 2011-02-03 16:57:04 <b1gdata> the spoils of that blood are still sitting in the vatican today, and the reminants of those indiginous populations are still being tortured by teh church (with it's anti-condom policies)
2588 2011-02-03 16:57:26 <bd_> luke-jr: My point here is, if you're born into the _wrong_ church, you could be very very very convinced your own church is correct. When it's not.
2589 2011-02-03 16:57:28 <luke-jr> b1gdata: no policies there. condoms are simply gravely immoral.
2590 2011-02-03 16:57:52 <b1gdata> luke-jr: wrong the vatican has used it's political and fiancial power to make condoms difficult to import into certain places
2591 2011-02-03 16:58:01 <luke-jr> bd_: St. Francis Xavier (IIRC) died following an antipope (false pope), yet he was still Catholic and is now a canonized Saint
2592 2011-02-03 16:58:04 <b1gdata> and they spread lies and disinformation about condoms
2593 2011-02-03 16:58:18 <luke-jr> b1gdata: good. condoms should be illegal.
2594 2011-02-03 16:58:31 <b1gdata> it's part of a contiuned torture campaign
2595 2011-02-03 16:58:41 <luke-jr> condoms are sexual abuse
2596 2011-02-03 16:58:44 <b1gdata> where the vatican has been continually raping these populations for hundreds of years
2597 2011-02-03 16:58:50 <luke-jr> worse than rape*
2598 2011-02-03 16:58:56 <bd_> luke-jr: I think you have the wrong person, but in any case - everyone dies
2599 2011-02-03 16:59:03 <bd_> Everyone dies, eventually.
2600 2011-02-03 16:59:15 <bd_> And every person in the wrong religion lives, for a while.
2601 2011-02-03 16:59:25 <bd_> How long, of course varies.
2602 2011-02-03 16:59:27 <luke-jr> bd_: the point being, honest mistakes do not interfere with ones membership in the Church
2603 2011-02-03 16:59:55 <luke-jr> even if one professes adherance to a false religion, it is possible he is still truly a member of the real Catholic Church
2604 2011-02-03 17:00:00 <b1gdata> the church is a terrorist organization
2605 2011-02-03 17:00:10 <b1gdata> plain and simple
2606 2011-02-03 17:00:16 <ArtForz> yep, and quite literally
2607 2011-02-03 17:00:17 <bd_> luke-jr: Well, that's not the problem. The problem is, you've made this honest mistake, you believe church A is the True church when church B is the true church. Now you go out and convert people from church B to A, honestly believing church A to be correct
2608 2011-02-03 17:00:33 <bd_> Now what?
2609 2011-02-03 17:00:34 <harryjr> Jesus was killed by the Bankers. Who do you think put up the 40 pieces of silver?
2610 2011-02-03 17:00:52 <luke-jr> bd_: those people are presumably in the same boat.
2611 2011-02-03 17:01:02 <luke-jr> bd_: anyhow, "who is the pope" is not a doctrinal matter.
2612 2011-02-03 17:01:18 <luke-jr> adherance to an antipope does not make someone lose their membership in the Church
2613 2011-02-03 17:01:23 <bd_> luke-jr: Okay. Now say the doctrines of church A and B vary in some material way.
2614 2011-02-03 17:01:34 <luke-jr> bd_: then you can discern which is legit
2615 2011-02-03 17:01:43 <bd_> luke-jr: How do you know which doctrine is correct?
2616 2011-02-03 17:02:14 <luke-jr> if one has varied, then its mark of Unity will be lacking most likely
2617 2011-02-03 17:02:28 <bd_> luke-jr: Okay. How do you know if the mark of Unity is there?
2618 2011-02-03 17:02:37 <harryjr> All relegion has been infiltrated by the Vatican --by force.
2619 2011-02-03 17:03:13 <luke-jr> bd_: observation?
2620 2011-02-03 17:03:29 <bd_> luke-jr: You can observe all you like, but if you don't know what you're looking for it won't do you any good!
2621 2011-02-03 17:03:45 <b1gdata> whichever church is the one he was born into is the true one of course
2622 2011-02-03 17:03:49 <ArtForz> thats easy, just look for the "Made by God" seal of authenticity
2623 2011-02-03 17:03:51 <bd_> Perhaps Church A teaches that The True Mark of Unity is Where $evilthing Is Permitted
2624 2011-02-03 17:04:05 <luke-jr> bd_: there's always the appeal to reason
2625 2011-02-03 17:04:05 <bd_> So you go out and look to see if $evilthing is permitted. And it is in Church A!
2626 2011-02-03 17:04:40 <bd_> luke-jr: Appealing to reason does no good unless you define your assumptions first. One one which will be the definition of what the heck this mark of unity is in the first place
2627 2011-02-03 17:04:59 <luke-jr> reason can disprove all false religions, and can (with inductive logic) prove the true religion
2628 2011-02-03 17:05:26 <bd_> luke-jr: With proper assumptions, certainly. You can prove _anything_ with the right set of assumptions.
2629 2011-02-03 17:05:30 <harryjr> How do you know Christanity is the 'true' religion?
2630 2011-02-03 17:05:53 <bd_> That's the thing about reason - to use reasoning properly, one must first define the rules one will be reasoning by
2631 2011-02-03 17:05:57 <b1gdata> whichever church has the most money is the 'true' religion..  in other words whichever one killed the most populations
2632 2011-02-03 17:06:10 <luke-jr> b1gdata: the Catholic Church is quite poor nowadays.
2633 2011-02-03 17:06:12 <harryjr> agreed.
2634 2011-02-03 17:06:15 <b1gdata> luke-jr: nonsense
2635 2011-02-03 17:06:16 <ArtForz> ROFL
2636 2011-02-03 17:06:18 <bd_> If you don't, it's too easy to let some silly assumption in that automatically makes some church or another win.
2637 2011-02-03 17:06:54 <harryjr> Not the Vatican + The Royals = All the wealth in the world.
2638 2011-02-03 17:06:56 <luke-jr> bd_: s/assumption/observation
2639 2011-02-03 17:07:08 <nanotube> oh no, has this become the #bitcoin-religion channel now. hehe
2640 2011-02-03 17:07:13 <bd_> luke-jr: I'm using assumption in a very careful sense here. Please do not replace it like that.
2641 2011-02-03 17:07:14 <luke-jr> harryjr: the Catholic Church no longer controls the Vatican, unfortunately.
2642 2011-02-03 17:07:38 <luke-jr> bd_: logic does not require any unreasonable assumptions.
2643 2011-02-03 17:07:47 <harryjr> luke-jr: Where do you get your information from?
2644 2011-02-03 17:07:53 <harryjr> Television?
2645 2011-02-03 17:07:55 <bd_> luke-jr: In logical reasoning, one starts with a set of "assumptions" (also known as axioms). There are statements you take as ultimate truth. "Reasonable" statements. You cannot do logic without these.
2646 2011-02-03 17:07:55 <ArtForz> nanotube: apparently, yup
2647 2011-02-03 17:08:03 <luke-jr> harryjr: I haven't had a TV for years.
2648 2011-02-03 17:08:07 <harryjr> Or the Pope's news letter
2649 2011-02-03 17:08:08 <bd_> There are also rules of induction, in which you take two true statements, and make another true statement.
2650 2011-02-03 17:08:27 <bd_> Most people play fast and loose with this kind of reasoning, but that's a nice way to make mistakes.
2651 2011-02-03 17:08:34 <luke-jr> bd_: ok
2652 2011-02-03 17:08:38 <bd_> luke-jr: Now, you say you don't need any "un"reasonable assumptions.
2653 2011-02-03 17:08:54 <bd_> But it is very very very important to define exactly what is reasonable before you go logicking off.
2654 2011-02-03 17:09:07 <ArtForz> you forgot a few verys there
2655 2011-02-03 17:09:11 <luke-jr> lol
2656 2011-02-03 17:09:27 <ArtForz> start with bad axioms and you can prove pretty much everything and nothing
2657 2011-02-03 17:09:39 <luke-jr> bd_: fyi, I do need to get to real world work sometime today, so I am trying to slowly wind-down this conversation :p
2658 2011-02-03 17:09:48 <bd_> Incidentally, under many sets of rules of induction, if your assumptions contain any inconsistency, any paradox whatsoever, you can end up proving _anything_
2659 2011-02-03 17:09:52 <luke-jr> just in case you plan to do a whole attempt of a proof here and now
2660 2011-02-03 17:10:01 <bd_> Including a proof that there's no such inconsistency.
2661 2011-02-03 17:10:44 <bd_> luke-jr: ah, okay, I'm just sort of interested in exactly how you determine the Catholic church, in objective grounds, to be correct. Because there are a lot of people of other churches who make the same claim and they're just as convinced as you.
2662 2011-02-03 17:10:52 <bd_> So _someone_ has to be wrong.
2663 2011-02-03 17:11:01 <bd_> Why shouldn't the person who is wrong be you?
2664 2011-02-03 17:11:17 <luke-jr> shrug
2665 2011-02-03 17:11:20 <harryjr> luke-jr: History/Proof are always provided by the victor....
2666 2011-02-03 17:11:23 <bd_> Excellent answer.
2667 2011-02-03 17:11:25 <luke-jr> why should I labour under the assumption I am wrong?
2668 2011-02-03 17:11:34 <bd_> luke-jr: It's safer than the assumption that you're right.
2669 2011-02-03 17:11:46 <luke-jr> not necessarily.
2670 2011-02-03 17:11:46 <bd_> Or to clarify:
2671 2011-02-03 17:11:53 <bd_> You need not be under the assumption that you _are_ wrong.
2672 2011-02-03 17:12:08 <bd_> But you should be under the assumption that, you know, maybe you _might_ be wrong?
2673 2011-02-03 17:12:20 <bd_> Because if not, and it does turn out that you're wrong,
2674 2011-02-03 17:12:23 <bd_> well, then, you're screwed.
2675 2011-02-03 17:12:42 <bd_> But if you're right, well, no worries there. God's got your back.
2676 2011-02-03 17:13:18 <luke-jr> bd_: all evidence I have seen clearly supports the Catholic Church's claim to infallibility.
2677 2011-02-03 17:14:05 <bd_> luke-jr: I'd love to hear what evidence that is, but I take it you're running out of time, so I'll take your word for it that you believe that.
2678 2011-02-03 17:14:27 <luke-jr> real history also supports its claim to have been revealed by God
2679 2011-02-03 17:14:31 <bd_> Just keep in mind that all evidence must be interpreted by the viewer, and a viewer under a bad set of assumptions can overlook all kinds of things. *shrug*
2680 2011-02-03 17:14:35 altamic has joined
2681 2011-02-03 17:14:48 <b1gdata> why would you serve a god who you believe has no mercy for most of the population of the planet ?
2682 2011-02-03 17:14:52 <harryjr> Did any of you look at that guy's links? A few of them are very interesting. i.e. 'The Occupation of the United States'???  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
2683 2011-02-03 17:15:00 <harryjr> nuts
2684 2011-02-03 17:15:00 <luke-jr> (as opposed to the made-up fictions that atheists have been coming up with lately)
2685 2011-02-03 17:15:28 <luke-jr> b1gdata: mercy is available, even if most don't care to seek it.
2686 2011-02-03 17:15:30 <bd_> luke-jr: The human brain is a lean mean pattern finding machine. It finds patterns and ignores the rest. It makes it very dangerous to select a few anecdotes and claim correctness. You must look at _every_ prediction, including the ones discarded due to being wrong.
2687 2011-02-03 17:15:43 <b1gdata> luke-jr: no according to you it's only available if you sign up for this one particular cult
2688 2011-02-03 17:15:53 <bd_> but anyway, enough about this
2689 2011-02-03 17:15:59 <luke-jr> b1gdata: that's still available.
2690 2011-02-03 17:16:07 <Kiba> I wanna talk about bitcoin jobs!
2691 2011-02-03 17:16:11 <harryjr> I didn't know that the USA was a Corporation.
2692 2011-02-03 17:16:26 <Kiba> harryjr: so you believe everything you read?
2693 2011-02-03 17:16:27 <bd_> If there is a God, I wish He'd make a much clearer sign about what He wants us to do. Rather than leaving us to guess based on the words of fallible fellow man :)
2694 2011-02-03 17:16:28 <luke-jr> harryjr: do you believe everything you read?
2695 2011-02-03 17:16:43 <harryjr> That material is sited in the public record
2696 2011-02-03 17:16:47 <luke-jr> bd_: there have been many miracles, if that's what you're asking for.
2697 2011-02-03 17:16:50 <harryjr> did you care to look?
2698 2011-02-03 17:16:56 <harryjr> or just assume?
2699 2011-02-03 17:16:59 <luke-jr> harryjr: no, because it doesn't matter.
2700 2011-02-03 17:17:05 <Kiba> harryjr: naw
2701 2011-02-03 17:17:08 <bd_> luke-jr: Selection bias. How many non-miracles also occur?
2702 2011-02-03 17:17:11 <luke-jr> my question was not intended to imply it is false, btw.
2703 2011-02-03 17:17:12 <Kiba> I am just asking you
2704 2011-02-03 17:17:23 <harryjr> oh... I see. Is that how you gain knowledge?
2705 2011-02-03 17:17:31 <luke-jr> bd_: there is something disproving about natural events?
2706 2011-02-03 17:17:39 <harryjr> Blind knowlegde?
2707 2011-02-03 17:17:42 <harryjr> hmm.
2708 2011-02-03 17:18:01 <luke-jr> harryjr: what difference does it make if the US is or is not a corp.?
2709 2011-02-03 17:18:17 <luke-jr> again, I'm not claiming to know which is the case.
2710 2011-02-03 17:18:19 <harryjr> the US Goverment?
2711 2011-02-03 17:18:21 <harryjr> ??
2712 2011-02-03 17:18:24 <bd_> luke-jr: No, I'm saying that things that you classify as "miraculous" will occur from time to time without divine intervention. Simple matter of probability. The thing is, people tend to pay lots of attention to the really rare "miracles", while ignoring all the perfectly ordinary cases as well.
2713 2011-02-03 17:18:26 <harryjr> you kidding?
2714 2011-02-03 17:18:46 <harryjr> It makes a HUGE diff
2715 2011-02-03 17:18:46 <bd_> luke-jr: As such, to truly show that these are miracles, and not just luck of the draw, you'd need to start looking at the _non-miracles_ as well.
2716 2011-02-03 17:19:52 <b1gdata> if the US is a corporation who are teh shareholders
2717 2011-02-03 17:19:59 <bd_> luke-jr: to put it another way, say I'm some sort of despot. I give sentenced criminals this deal: I'll flip a coin. If it comes up heads, off with their head. If it comes up tails, off with their head.
2718 2011-02-03 17:20:00 <b1gdata> the british monarch of course.
2719 2011-02-03 17:20:05 <bd_> The coin comes on its edge. It's a miracle!
2720 2011-02-03 17:20:22 <bd_> Of course, this is the 9000th prisoner to go through this, and there'll be 9000 after him
2721 2011-02-03 17:20:27 <bd_> None of whom came up on edge.
2722 2011-02-03 17:20:38 <bd_> But nobody remembers them after the fact
2723 2011-02-03 17:20:38 <luke-jr> bd_: really? bread will visibly change into human flesh, without divine intervention?
2724 2011-02-03 17:20:43 <harryjr> great question
2725 2011-02-03 17:20:45 <bd_> luke-jr: Did you see this happening?
2726 2011-02-03 17:20:47 <harryjr> the IMF?
2727 2011-02-03 17:20:56 <luke-jr> bd_: many witnesses did.
2728 2011-02-03 17:21:05 <bd_> luke-jr: Did you hear it from a witness directly?
2729 2011-02-03 17:21:15 <luke-jr> bd_: the Flesh, consecrated in the 7th century, is still living today.
2730 2011-02-03 17:21:32 <luke-jr> bd_: a biologist in the 20th century did a study on it
2731 2011-02-03 17:21:49 <bd_> luke-jr: How do you know that flesh was bread to start with?
2732 2011-02-03 17:21:52 <luke-jr> and found it to be living human flesh with various curious properties
2733 2011-02-03 17:22:11 <luke-jr> bd_: even if it was not, living human flesh standalone like that is still a miracle
2734 2011-02-03 17:22:23 <luke-jr> especially the weight attirbute of it
2735 2011-02-03 17:22:33 <luke-jr> 2 drops of blood from it, weighed the same as 1 by itself
2736 2011-02-03 17:22:40 <bd_> luke-jr: care to give me a link to this study? I'm pretty sure living flesh with no support would make a HUGE story, what with it being a violation of the second law of thermodynamics
2737 2011-02-03 17:22:53 <luke-jr> bd_: I think it's only available on tree paper
2738 2011-02-03 17:23:07 <ArtForz> how... convenient.
2739 2011-02-03 17:23:18 <luke-jr> in*
2740 2011-02-03 17:23:33 <bd_> luke-jr: That's okay, if it's been circulated widely at all, I can obtain it through interlibrary loan services. Although I only do English and Japanese, I'm afraid. Any other languages are a bit beyond me.
2741 2011-02-03 17:23:37 <luke-jr> ArtForz: unfortunately, the internet was only just invented in the last 50 years
2742 2011-02-03 17:23:49 <echelon> does having port 8333 forwarded effect the likelihood your ability to complete a block chain?
2743 2011-02-03 17:23:52 <bd_> If you can get me a citation that would be great
2744 2011-02-03 17:23:59 <nanotube> echelon: no
2745 2011-02-03 17:24:05 <echelon> kk
2746 2011-02-03 17:24:06 <luke-jr> http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html has a summary of the findings
2747 2011-02-03 17:24:15 <bd_> that said, if it's as weird as you suggest, I highly doubt it would have only one study, which is not in online archives
2748 2011-02-03 17:24:42 <luke-jr> the guy who headed the study in 1970-1981 was Prof. Odoardo Linoli
2749 2011-02-03 17:25:25 <echelon> anyone else purchased a domain through kalyhost?
2750 2011-02-03 17:25:35 <bd_> luke-jr: Okay, I don't trust this site's credentials. I would like the original article. Is this the shroud of Turin-Essay? I'm not too familar with this, you see
2751 2011-02-03 17:26:00 <luke-jr> bd_: no, I'm not aware of living flesh on the Shroud
2752 2011-02-03 17:26:20 <bd_> luke-jr: Actually, let me rephrase this. I suspect the person who wrote that site did not understand the findings of the study; they may have misinterpreted Prof. Linoli's writings.
2753 2011-02-03 17:26:31 <gavinandresen> I wonder if we can get the Church to accept bitcoins for donations or indulgences....
2754 2011-02-03 17:26:40 <luke-jr> bd_: if you can get the original, I would appreciate a scan ☺
2755 2011-02-03 17:26:42 <gavinandresen> I bet Scientology would accept them.
2756 2011-02-03 17:26:46 <nanotube> gavinandresen: haha that'd give bitcoin a bit of a boost. :)
2757 2011-02-03 17:26:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: the Church has forbade fee-based indulgences for a while
2758 2011-02-03 17:27:02 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: but tithing perhaps
2759 2011-02-03 17:27:20 <gavinandresen> "indulgence" was such a nice word, though... pity
2760 2011-02-03 17:27:32 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: there's still plenty of indulgences, just none with fees are allowed
2761 2011-02-03 17:27:54 <gavinandresen> It'd be a real coup to get the Amish to accept them
2762 2011-02-03 17:27:54 brunner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2763 2011-02-03 17:28:10 TheAncientGoat has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2764 2011-02-03 17:28:18 <luke-jr> Amish are heretics.
2765 2011-02-03 17:28:32 <bd_> http://www.getcited.org/pub/101676949 I think this is the citation
2766 2011-02-03 17:28:37 <luke-jr> but from a practical standpoint, you could probably do it
2767 2011-02-03 17:28:41 davout has joined
2768 2011-02-03 17:28:46 <luke-jr> Amish are big on cell phones
2769 2011-02-03 17:28:58 TheAncientGoat has joined
2770 2011-02-03 17:29:03 <gavinandresen> Yeah, they're not luddites.
2771 2011-02-03 17:29:05 <davout> gavinandresen: ping
2772 2011-02-03 17:29:08 <davout> hey
2773 2011-02-03 17:29:09 <gavinandresen> davout: pong
2774 2011-02-03 17:29:13 <luke-jr> bd_: dunno, sorry
2775 2011-02-03 17:29:18 <luke-jr> bd_: can you get it?
2776 2011-02-03 17:29:26 <b1gdata> catholic priests could start using btc to trade their little-boy sex slaves.  that'd give the bitcoin economy quite a boost.
2777 2011-02-03 17:29:29 <davout> which port do i need to open to make testnet client visible?
2778 2011-02-03 17:29:41 <luke-jr> b1gdata: that goes beyond slander.
2779 2011-02-03 17:29:46 <ArtForz> 18333
2780 2011-02-03 17:29:51 <b1gdata> beyond slander ?
2781 2011-02-03 17:29:56 <davout> k
2782 2011-02-03 17:29:57 <b1gdata> isn't that just recent news tories
2783 2011-02-03 17:30:04 <bd_> luke-jr: hmm. 1976, still in copyright. If it was an article it'd be easier
2784 2011-02-03 17:30:24 <bd_> I'm studying abroad in Japan atm, the library here isn't as good as my home library (whici will send scans for page ranges...)
2785 2011-02-03 17:30:57 <luke-jr> bd_: always annoying when scientific stuff is copyrighted, IMO
2786 2011-02-03 17:31:12 <luke-jr> b1gdata: no, it's slander from the lying media
2787 2011-02-03 17:31:22 <gavinandresen> Copyrights should expire after 20 years like they used to... sigh
2788 2011-02-03 17:31:25 <bd_> luke-jr: That, we can agree on :)
2789 2011-02-03 17:31:27 <b1gdata> lol these preists are being convincted in courts of law
2790 2011-02-03 17:31:43 <b1gdata> the media isn't just making it up
2791 2011-02-03 17:32:21 <bd_> it doesn't look like I'll be able to get ahold of it easily here in Japan. Ask me again in september, I'll be able to get a copy easily then :)
2792 2011-02-03 17:32:41 <luke-jr> b1gdata: they are, I agree. but they're not Catholic priests.
2793 2011-02-03 17:32:55 <luke-jr> b1gdata: if they were Catholic priests, no State's courts would have jurisidiction
2794 2011-02-03 17:32:58 TheAncientGoat_ has joined
2795 2011-02-03 17:33:09 <luke-jr> bd_: I might not remember ;P
2796 2011-02-03 17:33:17 <bd_> that said though, I would not be at all surprised if whatever this artifact is, was at some point living tissue. I would also not be at all surprised if the findings were widely misinterpreted *shrug*
2797 2011-02-03 17:33:30 <ArtForz> yup
2798 2011-02-03 17:33:31 <bd_> scientific studies getting misinterpreted happens all the time, unfortunately :|
2799 2011-02-03 17:33:37 TheAncientGoat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2800 2011-02-03 17:33:37 <ArtForz> yup
2801 2011-02-03 17:33:51 <luke-jr> bd_: either way, it'd be interesting to find out
2802 2011-02-03 17:33:55 <bd_> all I know is, if the artifact has the properties you described
2803 2011-02-03 17:34:02 <bd_> it would instantly turn modern science upside down
2804 2011-02-03 17:34:04 <bd_> overnight
2805 2011-02-03 17:34:07 <b1gdata> luke-jr: the catholic church has a history of sexual abuse dating back hundreds of years.  They used to burn people for having sex.
2806 2011-02-03 17:34:25 <luke-jr> b1gdata: more lies
2807 2011-02-03 17:34:26 <bd_> the first and second laws of thermodynamics are _fundamental_ to modern physics.
2808 2011-02-03 17:34:29 <b1gdata> apparently if you have sex that is not authorized by the catholic church.. you need to be burned
2809 2011-02-03 17:34:37 <b1gdata> there's all sorts of historical examples
2810 2011-02-03 17:34:38 <bd_> So yeah, it's not the kind of thing that would get buried in a church manuscript.
2811 2011-02-03 17:34:50 <bd_> Guarenteed Nobel prize for anyony who shows a violation of those laws
2812 2011-02-03 17:34:53 <b1gdata> people were burned for having sex out of wedlock all the time
2813 2011-02-03 17:34:55 <bd_> *shrug*
2814 2011-02-03 17:34:57 <luke-jr> bd_: unless people didn't *want* to believe it
2815 2011-02-03 17:35:00 <bd_> anyway 2:30 am here, time to sleep
2816 2011-02-03 17:35:11 <luke-jr> b1gdata: not by the Church
2817 2011-02-03 17:35:15 <bd_> luke-jr: Ah, that's the thing. It's trivially easy to demonstrate those kinds of violations :)
2818 2011-02-03 17:35:20 <luke-jr> b1gdata: and crimes like that *should* have penalties
2819 2011-02-03 17:35:32 <luke-jr> bd_: not when you have only one small Divine sample to use
2820 2011-02-03 17:35:37 <b1gdata> luke-jr: murder.. by the church.. on the church property.. authorized by the pope
2821 2011-02-03 17:35:44 <b1gdata> for having sex
2822 2011-02-03 17:35:45 <bd_> It's not about wanting to believe. It's about showing them, look, this this is alive. Look, the weight of the drops of blood doesn't change.
2823 2011-02-03 17:35:46 <luke-jr> b1gdata: again to lies
2824 2011-02-03 17:35:56 <bd_> Really quite easy to demonstrate.
2825 2011-02-03 17:36:22 <bd_> The church would want to make a big deal of it too, I'd suspect. It'd drive a lot of conversions, I'm sur.
2826 2011-02-03 17:36:23 <luke-jr> bd_: thousands witnessed Fatima, yet nothing much changed overnight
2827 2011-02-03 17:36:35 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2828 2011-02-03 17:37:22 <luke-jr> bd_: how many people saw Jesus perform His miracles in person, yet did not believe?
2829 2011-02-03 17:37:40 <sipa> none, possibly
2830 2011-02-03 17:37:54 <bd_> Mass hysteria/hallucinations has happened before. It'll happen again.
2831 2011-02-03 17:37:54 <b1gdata> luke-jr: how did Joan of Arc die ?
2832 2011-02-03 17:38:00 <luke-jr> sipa: at least the perfideous Jews who killed Him, witnessed some
2833 2011-02-03 17:38:03 <bd_> luke-jr: I don't know, and neither do you.
2834 2011-02-03 17:38:17 <ArtForz> yep, all Xth generation hearsay
2835 2011-02-03 17:38:31 <bd_> luke-jr: the only surviving records of Jesus's miracles are in holy books, which have been copied and translated many times, and before that were based on oral accounts that then go back generations
2836 2011-02-03 17:38:37 <ArtForz> and we all know how well that preserves facts...
2837 2011-02-03 17:38:57 <bd_> Even if there is divine content, it has been through too many generations of fallable humans to be automatically trusted
2838 2011-02-03 17:39:14 <b1gdata> there's much more historical evidence for the existance of other religions figures (buddha, mohammad, etc) than here is for jesus.
2839 2011-02-03 17:39:36 <bd_> Personally, I would not be at all surprised if there was a historical figure associated with Jesus. *shrug*
2840 2011-02-03 17:39:36 <luke-jr> b1gdata: a false court convicted her of heresy in a fixed trial
2841 2011-02-03 17:39:37 <b1gdata> I highly doubt he ever walked the earth
2842 2011-02-03 17:40:18 <ArtForz> bd_: agreed
2843 2011-02-03 17:40:26 <bd_> What I doubt, however, is that after that many generations of hearsay, that the accounts can remain completely accurate
2844 2011-02-03 17:40:31 <bd_> There is truth there, certainly.
2845 2011-02-03 17:41:12 <bd_> But the bible cannot be _all_ truth. This is evident by the manner in which it was composed, regardless of the original source.
2846 2011-02-03 17:41:23 <luke-jr> bd_: it is.
2847 2011-02-03 17:41:30 <x6763> i'm getting an javax.net.ssl.SSLPeerUnverifiedException exception when i try to connect to the mtgox trade api...anyone know why?
2848 2011-02-03 17:41:48 <bd_> oh good, technical questions. I'm done arguing religion now.
2849 2011-02-03 17:42:19 <bd_> http://xkcd.com/386/ I leave you all with this. And now, to sleep!
2850 2011-02-03 17:42:34 mtgox has joined
2851 2011-02-03 17:42:46 <b1gdata> speak of the devil
2852 2011-02-03 17:43:02 <bd_> x6763: are you using openjdk?
2853 2011-02-03 17:43:14 b1gdata has quit (Quit: ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz)
2854 2011-02-03 17:44:02 <bd_> x6763: the root cause is your JDK does not have the certificate for the CA that signed mtgox's cert installed
2855 2011-02-03 17:44:55 <luke-jr> bd_: :P
2856 2011-02-03 17:45:27 <bd_> x6763: http://docs.codehaus.org/display/HAUSMATES/Installing+a+new+CA+into+the+JDK has some examples of how to install CA certificates into the java keystore, so figure out what CA mtgox is using and install it to your keystore and you should be all set
2857 2011-02-03 17:45:35 <bd_> and now: to sleep! perchance to dream!
2858 2011-02-03 17:46:01 <x6763> bd_: no, i'm pretty sure i'm using sun-java6, not openjdk
2859 2011-02-03 17:46:05 <x6763> bd_: thanks, i'll check that out
2860 2011-02-03 17:46:29 <bd_> x6763: hm, well, for whatever reason your jdk/jre doesn't have the CA keys, so you'll need to install them
2861 2011-02-03 17:46:34 TD has joined
2862 2011-02-03 17:46:34 <bd_> ... anyway, sleep :|
2863 2011-02-03 17:46:38 <x6763> bd_: thanks
2864 2011-02-03 17:47:05 <CIA-98> bitcoin: David FRANCOIS master * r98ba262 / main.cpp : Reset testnet with a new genesis block - http://bit.ly/fspOog
2865 2011-02-03 17:47:12 * Kiba read Karl Marx
2866 2011-02-03 17:47:36 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2867 2011-02-03 17:47:39 <echelon> don't troll
2868 2011-02-03 17:47:44 <Kiba> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/
2869 2011-02-03 17:47:57 <Kiba> his theories are a bunch of hogwash
2870 2011-02-03 17:48:19 davout has quit (Quit: i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net))
2871 2011-02-03 17:48:41 <echelon> socialism is history's greatest troll
2872 2011-02-03 17:48:52 <gavinandresen> Was he the one with the cigar or the one that didn't talk?
2873 2011-02-03 17:49:21 <echelon> that's castro and teller
2874 2011-02-03 17:49:40 <echelon> teller from penn & teller?
2875 2011-02-03 17:50:30 <gavinandresen> Right, my mistake.  I shoulda known, Penn is from Greenfield MA which is just up the road from me.
2876 2011-02-03 17:50:54 <echelon> penn is a libertarian :)
2877 2011-02-03 17:51:08 <gavinandresen> Yeah, big-time whacko crazy libertarian.
2878 2011-02-03 17:51:15 <echelon> heh
2879 2011-02-03 17:52:11 * frewsxcv wouldn't consider him whacko
2880 2011-02-03 17:52:26 <echelon> ya, he just acts that way
2881 2011-02-03 17:52:29 <gavinandresen> He regularly says he's a whacko crazy libertarian.
2882 2011-02-03 17:52:42 <echelon> he's rational in his arguments
2883 2011-02-03 17:52:59 <gavinandresen> Agreed.  He's still whacko.  See:  http://www.crackle.com/c/Penn_Says
2884 2011-02-03 17:53:04 <echelon> perhaps meaning that he's a dedicated one
2885 2011-02-03 17:54:08 <Kiba> anyway, I seem to be without a writing job
2886 2011-02-03 17:57:16 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
2887 2011-02-03 17:57:20 <echelon> pitch things to obama's writing staff
2888 2011-02-03 17:57:49 dukeleto has joined
2889 2011-02-03 17:59:31 <Kiba> echelon: well, I'll be starting a new publication if nobody wish to step up as editor-in-chief
2890 2011-02-03 17:59:51 <echelon> Kiba, have you tried the bitcoin times?
2891 2011-02-03 18:00:10 <echelon> they're looking for writers, and uh.. in need of proofreaders
2892 2011-02-03 18:00:14 <luke-jr> lol
2893 2011-02-03 18:00:42 genjix has joined
2894 2011-02-03 18:00:49 <echelon> but it's a nice idea
2895 2011-02-03 18:01:31 <genjix> MT`AwAy: hey, im back around now... if you give me the github link ill start working on it.
2896 2011-02-03 18:02:15 <Kiba> echelon: I wrote for The Bitcoin Times
2897 2011-02-03 18:02:21 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2898 2011-02-03 18:02:22 <Kiba> for ALL THE ISSUES
2899 2011-02-03 18:02:23 <echelon> oh, which issue?
2900 2011-02-03 18:02:30 <echelon> :/
2901 2011-02-03 18:02:45 <Kiba> you see? I am not liking the editor-in-chief
2902 2011-02-03 18:03:37 <Kiba> one bit
2903 2011-02-03 18:03:46 <Kiba> not personally, but professionally
2904 2011-02-03 18:03:48 andrew12 has quit ()
2905 2011-02-03 18:04:37 <echelon> i only got the free issue
2906 2011-02-03 18:04:50 <echelon> you happen to know how old he is?
2907 2011-02-03 18:04:58 <Kiba> He's like 14 years old
2908 2011-02-03 18:08:16 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2909 2011-02-03 18:11:54 wumpus has joined
2910 2011-02-03 18:12:07 <jrabbit> I don't really know where they fall but they're quite annoying iirc
2911 2011-02-03 18:12:14 <genjix_> damn afk
2912 2011-02-03 18:12:19 <echelon> jrabbit, the owner is with the green party
2913 2011-02-03 18:12:29 <jrabbit> bourgois.
2914 2011-02-03 18:12:34 <jrabbit> Not leftist :P
2915 2011-02-03 18:12:50 <gavinandresen> Isn't it the green-rainbow now?
2916 2011-02-03 18:13:01 <echelon> i use leftist broadly
2917 2011-02-03 18:13:18 <echelon> statists
2918 2011-02-03 18:13:36 <genjix_> not all leftists are statists
2919 2011-02-03 18:13:46 * jrabbit doesn't like american terminology
2920 2011-02-03 18:14:06 <jrabbit> genjix_: most aren't unless they're progressive apologists
2921 2011-02-03 18:14:12 <echelon> the non-statist leftists don't even know that they're statists
2922 2011-02-03 18:14:17 <gavinandresen> Ah, it is just green-rainbow here in massachusetts... they can't make up their minds about anything....
2923 2011-02-03 18:14:24 <echelon> especially the anarchists
2924 2011-02-03 18:14:37 <harryjr> All partys are dirty. What we need to is remove everyone from the UNITED STATES CORP. and re-install 'congress' We can keep our buildings... Just get rid of the people.  http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm I am angry
2925 2011-02-03 18:15:21 <echelon> what was the headline a few weeks ago.. anarchists push students to riot because the state raised tuition?
2926 2011-02-03 18:15:28 <jrabbit> This is too silly for me to continue to engage
2927 2011-02-03 18:15:48 <echelon> universities, rather
2928 2011-02-03 18:16:01 <echelon> i don't know what harry's on about
2929 2011-02-03 18:16:04 <genjix_> a-com a-cap... both want the same thing, but both have a different image of it
2930 2011-02-03 18:16:11 <harryjr> anarchists/terrorist/anarchists/terrorist/anarchists/terrorist/anarchists/terrorist/ where do you get these terms? The television?
2931 2011-02-03 18:16:17 <jrabbit> echelon: you simply misunderstand the complexity of anarchism
2932 2011-02-03 18:16:32 <jrabbit> harryjr: no from anarchists like myself.
2933 2011-02-03 18:16:36 <echelon> i speak of mainstream anarchists
2934 2011-02-03 18:16:54 <echelon> i'm a free-market anarchist myself
2935 2011-02-03 18:17:05 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
2936 2011-02-03 18:17:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106007 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 840 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 24268.27230810
2937 2011-02-03 18:17:16 <prax> left-anarchists end up doing nothing but aiding states
2938 2011-02-03 18:17:26 <echelon> precisely
2939 2011-02-03 18:17:26 <genjix_> in an anarchist world, some would choose to make a-com states and others make a-cap
2940 2011-02-03 18:17:36 <prax> nobody wants to live that way, see Spain, right back to statism, vs something like Iceland
2941 2011-02-03 18:17:41 <genjix_> it'd be a big experiment of different societies to find the best style
2942 2011-02-03 18:17:48 <jrabbit> then you udnerstand that there are many kind of anarchism, one of the bigest relying on pro-social aspects, and wants pro-social aspects continued from the existing state but without the state as a requisite
2943 2011-02-03 18:18:20 <jrabbit> prax: because civil war dictates the will of the people?
2944 2011-02-03 18:18:34 <harryjr> anarchist are just running from a system
2945 2011-02-03 18:18:40 <prax> because communism doesnt work when people try it
2946 2011-02-03 18:18:42 <harryjr> a system of some control
2947 2011-02-03 18:18:58 <gavinandresen> evolution please, not revolution.  Small steps to a much better world.
2948 2011-02-03 18:19:08 <jrabbit> prax: do you not beleive in popular soviergnty? What are you some kind of monarchist?
2949 2011-02-03 18:19:19 <prax> no and no
2950 2011-02-03 18:19:31 <prax> well if you mean state sovereignty anyhow
2951 2011-02-03 18:19:35 harryjr has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2952 2011-02-03 18:19:48 <jrabbit> Then how can you say because of a civil war that spain did not wish for the republic.
2953 2011-02-03 18:19:50 <prax> individual sovereignty yes, democracy no thanks
2954 2011-02-03 18:19:56 <jrabbit> lol.
2955 2011-02-03 18:20:16 <jrabbit> So monarchism dressed up in modern names?
2956 2011-02-03 18:20:27 mikethompson has joined
2957 2011-02-03 18:20:37 <prax> huh? just saying that theres even less historical success in attempts at left-anarchism than more libertarian systems
2958 2011-02-03 18:20:54 <prax> who said anything about monarchism?
2959 2011-02-03 18:21:17 <jrabbit> You're ignoring popular soveirgnty is what I was saying
2960 2011-02-03 18:21:28 <prax> which means what?
2961 2011-02-03 18:21:29 <xelister> gavinandresen: (C) should expire in 5 years on comples  new technologies, 3 on general stuff and movies&music, 1 or simple devices etc, 3 months on simple internet-business shit like "mouse clicling" etc
2962 2011-02-03 18:21:34 <jrabbit> Which is ok but you have no business telling people who beleive in the will of the people what to do
2963 2011-02-03 18:21:38 <mikethompson> Is Anarchy what bitcoin is about or is it about Liberity?
2964 2011-02-03 18:21:43 <jrabbit> prax: its a well defined term
2965 2011-02-03 18:21:54 <jrabbit> mikethompson: its agnostic to beleif :P
2966 2011-02-03 18:22:02 <prax> statism, majoritarianism, again no thanks
2967 2011-02-03 18:22:19 <jrabbit> prax: you only know the history of spsin then?
2968 2011-02-03 18:22:24 <xelister> mikethompson: anarchism is related to liberty.  Are you free to serve no one ruler?
2969 2011-02-03 18:22:36 <gavinandresen> I think bitcoin is about Money By The People, For the People.  == liberty
2970 2011-02-03 18:22:40 <prax> jrabbit, you are a dishonest person and keep coming up with strawmen?
2971 2011-02-03 18:22:44 <mikethompson> No one ruler so rule all.
2972 2011-02-03 18:22:49 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: for you, it may be.
2973 2011-02-03 18:22:51 <mikethompson> It should be free.
2974 2011-02-03 18:22:57 <jrabbit> prax: the point is you don't know what popular soviergnty is
2975 2011-02-03 18:23:14 <prax> no I asked you what you mean
2976 2011-02-03 18:23:20 <luke-jr> with a diverse community, not everyone has the same purpose for things
2977 2011-02-03 18:23:25 <prax> rule by democratically elected leaders right?
2978 2011-02-03 18:23:29 <jrabbit> its the ideolgoy that runs counter to american imperialism
2979 2011-02-03 18:23:32 <gavinandresen> xelister:  I think 20 year copyright is in the realm of politically possible....   evolution, not revolution....
2980 2011-02-03 18:23:38 <mikethompson> I just got done watching this video. This guy should be man into a statue! http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3138.0
2981 2011-02-03 18:23:42 <jrabbit> that power derives from the people
2982 2011-02-03 18:23:52 <mikethompson> This is unbeliebeable.
2983 2011-02-03 18:24:11 <mikethompson> I have no idea
2984 2011-02-03 18:24:12 <prax> evaluation of the values of the majority aren't valid for establishing them for all
2985 2011-02-03 18:24:37 <jrabbit> "To speak of popular sovereignty is to place ultimate authority in the people."
2986 2011-02-03 18:24:46 <mikethompson> sovereignty is the ONLY way.
2987 2011-02-03 18:24:53 CyanDynamo1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2988 2011-02-03 18:24:54 <jrabbit> did you not learn this in school?
2989 2011-02-03 18:24:56 <mikethompson> and I am sovereignty
2990 2011-02-03 18:25:05 <jrabbit> It's part of the state propaganda platform even
2991 2011-02-03 18:25:11 <mikethompson> that is I am gettin my united states sovereignty BACK!
2992 2011-02-03 18:25:13 <xelister> gavinandresen: after like 1 year given 'media' is not longer new, and everyone seen it on TV or radio.  after 10 years noone cares
2993 2011-02-03 18:25:15 <prax> what is your point?
2994 2011-02-03 18:25:19 CyanDynamo has joined
2995 2011-02-03 18:25:26 <luke-jr> all this liberty fanaticism is going to drive people away from bitcoin.
2996 2011-02-03 18:25:32 <mikethompson> all for one one for all!
2997 2011-02-03 18:25:35 <Diablo-D3> <Fark> Federal authorities have finally realized that the mere existence of Oakland, California violates all kinds of laws
2998 2011-02-03 18:25:39 <jrabbit> prax: my point is that spain didn't "choose" anything, Franco just won a civil war.
2999 2011-02-03 18:25:42 * xelister bitchwhips luke-jr like a slave
3000 2011-02-03 18:25:45 <Diablo-D3> FINALLY! The change Obama promised!
3001 2011-02-03 18:25:55 <mikethompson> liberty is what Bit Coin is all about.
3002 2011-02-03 18:26:02 <luke-jr> mikethompson: to you maybe
3003 2011-02-03 18:26:06 <prax> and what I said was that leftism only serves states
3004 2011-02-03 18:26:06 <Diablo-D3> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/02/02/BA741HI1AN.DTL
3005 2011-02-03 18:26:10 <Kiba> gavinandresen: would you be interested in writing an article with The Bitcoin Times?
3006 2011-02-03 18:26:14 <Kiba> err
3007 2011-02-03 18:26:14 <prax> even when the talk is "anarchism"
3008 2011-02-03 18:26:24 <Kiba> gavinandresen: err, The Bitcoin Weekly
3009 2011-02-03 18:26:37 <mikethompson> luke-jr: what is it for u marxism?
3010 2011-02-03 18:26:44 <Kiba> the rival publication to The Bitcoin Times
3011 2011-02-03 18:26:47 <Kiba> haha
3012 2011-02-03 18:26:47 <jrabbit> prax: aanrchocommunism has nothing to do with the state
3013 2011-02-03 18:26:48 <luke-jr> mikethompson: tonal
3014 2011-02-03 18:26:58 <mikethompson> you are either with us...or against us.
3015 2011-02-03 18:27:00 <gavinandresen> Kiba:  I'm very busy;  if I were to do some writing, I'd do some rewriting of the bitcoin.org home page
3016 2011-02-03 18:27:03 <prax> nobody would want to live in anarcho-communism
3017 2011-02-03 18:27:14 <luke-jr> mikethompson: I am a Jedi, you are a Sith?
3018 2011-02-03 18:27:17 <jrabbit> It does have to do with an expectation of human rights regardless of a state to provide them
3019 2011-02-03 18:27:18 <x6763> mikethompson: bitcoin is a means to an ends...each person has their own ends their trying to get, so each person sees bitcoin a little bit different as part of the means to get there
3020 2011-02-03 18:27:23 <xelister> prax: dunno, many people want different things
3021 2011-02-03 18:27:31 <gavinandresen> (right now I'm busy waiting for boost to recompile and half-working on a 5-minute talk I'm giving on Tuesday)
3022 2011-02-03 18:27:33 <mikethompson> jrabbit: Jedi = Sovereign Citizen
3023 2011-02-03 18:27:34 <luke-jr> x6763++
3024 2011-02-03 18:27:42 <jrabbit> prax: repuclican spain organized itself that wya, egypt is organizing itself similarly
3025 2011-02-03 18:27:45 <mikethompson> Not a 'US Citizen'
3026 2011-02-03 18:27:48 <prax> anarcho sommunists wish to abolish money
3027 2011-02-03 18:27:55 <mikethompson> there is a difference
3028 2011-02-03 18:28:04 <prax> return to a primitive barter economy is just lol
3029 2011-02-03 18:28:20 * x6763 was just incremented to x6764 by luke-jr
3030 2011-02-03 18:28:24 <jrabbit> prax: how do you misunderstand your fellow anarchists so
3031 2011-02-03 18:28:26 <mikethompson> Did you listen that freggin video? WTF!
3032 2011-02-03 18:28:27 <prax> places like the USSR were not able to maintain autarchic existence
3033 2011-02-03 18:28:35 <prax> same for China, depends on trade with others
3034 2011-02-03 18:28:40 <jrabbit> USSR isn't relevant to this discussion
3035 2011-02-03 18:28:52 <jrabbit> Statist Stallinist scum
3036 2011-02-03 18:28:56 <luke-jr> lol
3037 2011-02-03 18:29:05 <luke-jr> why do half the people here assume everyone is American?
3038 2011-02-03 18:29:17 <x6763> must be americans
3039 2011-02-03 18:29:23 <jrabbit> ^
3040 2011-02-03 18:29:25 <mikethompson> Diablo-D3: There is no LAW under the 'Common Law' those are statutes
3041 2011-02-03 18:29:30 <prax> this is the difference jrabbit
3042 2011-02-03 18:29:31 <mikethompson> big difference
3043 2011-02-03 18:29:44 <prax> libertarian anarchists don't care if you want to go do your commune thing
3044 2011-02-03 18:29:46 <mikethompson> Do you even know what Common Law is?
3045 2011-02-03 18:29:56 <xelister> how you know someone is American by looking at the postal address he gives?
3046 2011-02-03 18:30:00 <mikethompson> it is The Sovereign Law
3047 2011-02-03 18:30:04 <prax> Marxists want to force us to be part of their worker councils and other bullshit
3048 2011-02-03 18:30:08 <Diablo-D3> Are we still doing this shit?
3049 2011-02-03 18:30:14 <mikethompson> not US CORPORATION 'legal'
3050 2011-02-03 18:30:20 <Diablo-D3> Law makes you a slave. ANYTHING that is a Law.
3051 2011-02-03 18:30:30 <mikethompson> you are dead asleep dude.
3052 2011-02-03 18:30:41 xelister is now known as retsilex
3053 2011-02-03 18:30:47 <mikethompson> Diablo-D3: Do you know what Common Law is?
3054 2011-02-03 18:30:55 <mikethompson> y/n?
3055 2011-02-03 18:30:58 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: not really. Law "rape is illegal" makes some people free (e.g. some wemen)
3056 2011-02-03 18:31:15 <mikethompson> Diablo-D3: again... you are dead asleep.
3057 2011-02-03 18:31:16 <prax> all law uses coercion, it matters what is justified
3058 2011-02-03 18:31:28 <retsilex> well always one's liberty is someone's else limitation
3059 2011-02-03 18:31:31 <prax> what fits in with things like peace and prosperity
3060 2011-02-03 18:31:51 <luke-jr> there should be a law against flooding #bitcoin-dev with this bs
3061 2011-02-03 18:31:54 <mikethompson> Common Law is what Soverign American's created for you
3062 2011-02-03 18:32:09 <Diablo-D3> Yes, and it makes you a slave.
3063 2011-02-03 18:32:26 <mikethompson> but you're not a Soverign American. You are a US Citizen. Do you know the diff y/n?
3064 2011-02-03 18:32:35 <mikethompson> straight up question to Diablo-D3
3065 2011-02-03 18:32:41 <mikethompson> y/n
3066 2011-02-03 18:33:02 <Diablo-D3> I am neither.
3067 2011-02-03 18:33:10 <Diablo-D3> Both of those descriptions imply I am a slave.
3068 2011-02-03 18:33:14 <mikethompson> do you have a drivers license?
3069 2011-02-03 18:33:17 <luke-jr> I am a Catholic layman.
3070 2011-02-03 18:33:22 <prax> yeah I don't recognize any state sovereignty
3071 2011-02-03 18:33:24 <mikethompson> do you have a birth 'certficate'?
3072 2011-02-03 18:33:29 <mikethompson> y/n?
3073 2011-02-03 18:33:35 <mikethompson> answer
3074 2011-02-03 18:33:36 <Diablo-D3> To say that I am anything but human is a divide and conquer technique.
3075 2011-02-03 18:33:37 <mikethompson> :
3076 2011-02-03 18:33:46 <mikethompson> you are dead asleep
3077 2011-02-03 18:33:51 <mikethompson> close your eyses...
3078 2011-02-03 18:33:55 <mikethompson> open them
3079 2011-02-03 18:34:00 <mikethompson> your still asleep
3080 2011-02-03 18:34:04 <prax> ^stfu
3081 2011-02-03 18:34:16 * luke-jr moves to #bitcoin-devel
3082 2011-02-03 18:34:20 <x6763> mikethompson == watership_down?
3083 2011-02-03 18:34:28 mikethompson has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3084 2011-02-03 18:34:39 <luke-jr> lol
3085 2011-02-03 18:34:41 <molecular> oh thank god
3086 2011-02-03 18:34:43 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3087 2011-02-03 18:34:44 <prax> rq
3088 2011-02-03 18:35:08 <luke-jr> someone more prominent go register #bitcoin-devel so we have a hideout when these nuts come here
3089 2011-02-03 18:35:26 kelvie` has joined
3090 2011-02-03 18:35:38 midnightmagic_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3091 2011-02-03 18:35:44 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: you there?
3092 2011-02-03 18:36:09 <gavinandresen> kinda
3093 2011-02-03 18:36:28 <jrabbit> prax: we msut discuss russia then you do not get how broadly intewrpreted "communism" was
3094 2011-02-03 18:36:31 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: register #bitcoin-devel so we have a hideout from nuts?
3095 2011-02-03 18:36:33 kelvie_ has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
3096 2011-02-03 18:36:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: and op a couple of people you trust
3097 2011-02-03 18:37:19 kelvie` has quit (Client Quit)
3098 2011-02-03 18:37:23 <gavinandresen> my IRC kung fu is weak.  And I'm busy.  Maybe somebody else aught to do that
3099 2011-02-03 18:37:25 <jrabbit> Lennin added many authortiarian elements into marxism as it was practiced by the bolshiveks
3100 2011-02-03 18:37:32 coins_not_cash has joined
3101 2011-02-03 18:37:47 <jrabbit> prax: You cannot asociate all "communism" with lenninism or exclude left communism
3102 2011-02-03 18:37:47 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: meh
3103 2011-02-03 18:38:11 <luke-jr> x6763: how about you?
3104 2011-02-03 18:39:17 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3105 2011-02-03 18:39:28 <luke-jr> …
3106 2011-02-03 18:39:31 <jrabbit> prax: your actual popular sovigern ideas dod not clash with left communism (as practiced by anarchocommunists) except in the political economy
3107 2011-02-03 18:39:47 <x6763> luke-jr: i'll consider it...but if anyone else wants to do it, feel free
3108 2011-02-03 18:39:52 <jrabbit> so just don't conflate the farce of russia with communism
3109 2011-02-03 18:40:11 <jrabbit> the left opposition is real, even if stallin tried to kill them all
3110 2011-02-03 18:40:36 <molecular> jrabbit == watership_down?
3111 2011-02-03 18:40:51 <jrabbit> ?
3112 2011-02-03 18:40:59 <molecular> <x6763> mikethompson == watership_down?
3113 2011-02-03 18:41:05 <molecular> worked before, but I might be mistaken
3114 2011-02-03 18:41:33 <retsilex> ArtForz: you think this taiwan factories could just resume production on their own or something. of cypresses
3115 2011-02-03 18:41:50 <x6763> molecular: haha
3116 2011-02-03 18:42:00 <jrabbit> http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ oh wow
3117 2011-02-03 18:42:10 <jrabbit> They're no longer refering to correspondants by name
3118 2011-02-03 18:42:41 <Kiba> what's happening in Egypt?
3119 2011-02-03 18:42:55 genjix_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3120 2011-02-03 18:43:02 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3121 2011-02-03 18:44:06 <molecular> is 1.12V dangerously high for a 5970?
3122 2011-02-03 18:44:17 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xkh6j7RMqk
3123 2011-02-03 18:44:21 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck am I watching
3124 2011-02-03 18:44:59 <molecular> can't tell you, ager verification trouble
3125 2011-02-03 18:46:14 <prax> http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/feb/03/egypt-protests-live-updates
3126 2011-02-03 18:46:18 <Diablo-D3> http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/02/03/gang-fight-video/
3127 2011-02-03 18:46:21 <Diablo-D3> a bunch of them
3128 2011-02-03 18:46:27 <prax> grabbing up a lot of journalists now
3129 2011-02-03 18:55:06 coins_not_cash has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3130 2011-02-03 18:58:14 Syke has joined
3131 2011-02-03 19:01:17 josh_ has joined
3132 2011-02-03 19:03:13 <josh_> Does anyone know of the 'best' place to buy bitcoin currency?
3133 2011-02-03 19:03:26 <josh_> (in volume)?
3134 2011-02-03 19:04:23 <luke-jr> my daughter just did her first multiplication problem!
3135 2011-02-03 19:04:31 <luke-jr> josh_: what kind of volume?
3136 2011-02-03 19:04:53 <josh_> maybe 30K?
3137 2011-02-03 19:04:57 <josh_> US $
3138 2011-02-03 19:05:14 <josh_> ~30
3139 2011-02-03 19:05:43 <luke-jr> um ok
3140 2011-02-03 19:05:49 <luke-jr> but I only have 150 BTC for that
3141 2011-02-03 19:05:50 <luke-jr> <.<
3142 2011-02-03 19:05:58 <josh_> ?
3143 2011-02-03 19:06:07 <luke-jr> so $1 per 200 BTC, I can do $30k
3144 2011-02-03 19:06:12 <luke-jr> err
3145 2011-02-03 19:06:17 <luke-jr> $200 per 1 BTC I mean
3146 2011-02-03 19:06:25 <retsilex> radeon announced their new 7xxx series card with photos
3147 2011-02-03 19:06:28 <Syke> i'll sell you 800 BTC for 30k!
3148 2011-02-03 19:06:29 <retsilex> http://imgur.com/gallery/SWbks
3149 2011-02-03 19:06:32 <josh_> Cute
3150 2011-02-03 19:06:44 <josh_> so this is not possible?
3151 2011-02-03 19:06:49 <luke-jr> josh_: I'm sure it's possible
3152 2011-02-03 19:06:54 <luke-jr> I only have 150 BTC to offer though
3153 2011-02-03 19:06:57 <Kiba> josh_: if you buy that much, you'll jack up the price
3154 2011-02-03 19:07:13 <luke-jr> yeah, expect to pay at least $1/BTC at that volume
3155 2011-02-03 19:07:19 <josh_> So there are 5M bit coins out at present correct?
3156 2011-02-03 19:07:31 <luke-jr> I think over 10M
3157 2011-02-03 19:07:38 <josh_> I see.
3158 2011-02-03 19:07:42 <Kiba> wrong
3159 2011-02-03 19:07:45 <Kiba> it's 5 million
3160 2011-02-03 19:07:47 <luke-jr> ArtForz might be able to sell enough
3161 2011-02-03 19:07:53 <luke-jr> Kiba: I thought we had half?
3162 2011-02-03 19:07:54 <josh_> This is a great idea!
3163 2011-02-03 19:07:59 <josh_> (Bit Coin)
3164 2011-02-03 19:08:03 <Kiba> 5.30 million bitcoin
3165 2011-02-03 19:08:14 <josh_> genius!
3166 2011-02-03 19:08:14 <Kiba> josh_: it's bitcoin, not Bit Coin
3167 2011-02-03 19:08:29 <josh_> sorry Kiba
3168 2011-02-03 19:08:39 <josh_> I am new to this. THANKS!
3169 2011-02-03 19:08:51 <Kiba> so you're looking to buy 30 thousand coins O_o
3170 2011-02-03 19:08:57 <luke-jr> actually, josh_ would jack the price up, but it would probably drop back to present levels shortly thereafter
3171 2011-02-03 19:09:06 <josh_> So is that a bad thing?
3172 2011-02-03 19:09:15 <josh_> 30K?!!!
3173 2011-02-03 19:09:15 <luke-jr> josh_: good for us, bad for you I think
3174 2011-02-03 19:09:26 <josh_> no, I am in early no?
3175 2011-02-03 19:09:31 <josh_> Correct?
3176 2011-02-03 19:09:33 <luke-jr> ⁇?
3177 2011-02-03 19:09:41 gejohn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3178 2011-02-03 19:09:43 <luke-jr> early was last year
3179 2011-02-03 19:09:43 <josh_> how long has bit coin been trading > .25?
3180 2011-02-03 19:09:51 <luke-jr> not too long
3181 2011-02-03 19:09:54 <luke-jr> maybe a few months I think
3182 2011-02-03 19:09:56 <prax> invest some of that 30K in me... =)
3183 2011-02-03 19:09:59 <josh_> You made my arguement.
3184 2011-02-03 19:10:25 <luke-jr> you might break even in a few months I suppose
3185 2011-02-03 19:10:26 <josh_> Ok, so you people are not vested in your own currency?
3186 2011-02-03 19:10:32 <luke-jr> but initially, you'll take a big loss
3187 2011-02-03 19:10:43 <luke-jr> I don't *have* $30k to vest :P
3188 2011-02-03 19:10:48 <josh_> I am already taking a loss with the $.
3189 2011-02-03 19:10:49 <Kiba> I have 700 BTC
3190 2011-02-03 19:10:52 <prax> he could probably wire it all to mtgox right?
3191 2011-02-03 19:10:56 <Kiba> which I earned from the bitcoin job market
3192 2011-02-03 19:11:01 <luke-jr> prax: I'n not sure MtGox has that much BTC?
3193 2011-02-03 19:11:01 <josh_> that is the whole reason I want bitcoin
3194 2011-02-03 19:11:05 <prax> then just not buy all at once and make a huge surge in prices
3195 2011-02-03 19:11:28 <prax> right but he would have MTG$ or whatever eh
3196 2011-02-03 19:11:36 <luke-jr> true, but he wants BTC
3197 2011-02-03 19:11:50 <luke-jr> I wouldn't trust MtGox with $30k anyhow
3198 2011-02-03 19:11:53 <prax> yes I understand and if he wants to drive the price like that go for it lol
3199 2011-02-03 19:11:59 <prax> true
3200 2011-02-03 19:12:03 <josh_> Hmmm.
3201 2011-02-03 19:12:15 <josh_> So you dont suggest buying in bulk?
3202 2011-02-03 19:12:19 <luke-jr> Bitcoin Market is peer-to-peer trading at least
3203 2011-02-03 19:12:19 <Kiba> somebody just sold lot of bitcoin right now
3204 2011-02-03 19:12:23 <prax> josh I suck at the currency thing but look at this
3205 2011-02-03 19:12:31 <luke-jr> josh_: I wouldn't.
3206 2011-02-03 19:12:38 <josh_> luke-jrL How did you get your bitcoins?
3207 2011-02-03 19:12:46 <luke-jr> josh_: bought & earned mostly
3208 2011-02-03 19:12:53 * Kiba earned mostly!
3209 2011-02-03 19:12:53 <prax> https://mtgox.com/trade/history
3210 2011-02-03 19:12:57 <luke-jr> spent about $80 USD on 200 BTC
3211 2011-02-03 19:12:58 <prax> then look at depth of market
3212 2011-02-03 19:13:02 <josh_> how many do u have, if you dont mind?
3213 2011-02-03 19:13:09 <luke-jr> earned about 40 so far with hosting
3214 2011-02-03 19:13:11 <josh_> ok
3215 2011-02-03 19:13:18 <luke-jr> sold those 200 BTC for about $140 or so
3216 2011-02-03 19:13:29 <prax> probably better to ask in #bitcoin-otc
3217 2011-02-03 19:13:36 <luke-jr> then bought 100 back for a bit less
3218 2011-02-03 19:13:39 <luke-jr> now up for sale on Market
3219 2011-02-03 19:13:48 <luke-jr> my non-sale balance is 57 BTC
3220 2011-02-03 19:14:09 <josh_> So I ask the group as a whole. Do you believe that this 'currency' (ok to call it that Kiba?) is a 'good' place to put your money right now (with a crashing $)?
3221 2011-02-03 19:14:12 <Kiba> trying to spectulate on bitcoin?
3222 2011-02-03 19:14:23 <Kiba> josh_: I don't know
3223 2011-02-03 19:14:27 <Kiba> I like it a lot
3224 2011-02-03 19:14:28 <Kiba> though
3225 2011-02-03 19:14:29 <josh_> ?
3226 2011-02-03 19:14:33 <Kiba> but anything could happen
3227 2011-02-03 19:14:37 <luke-jr> (which btw is almost 1,5895 TBC)
3228 2011-02-03 19:14:40 <prax> as safe of safer than $ imo
3229 2011-02-03 19:14:42 <josh_> it has trippled in 2 months
3230 2011-02-03 19:14:43 <prax> or*
3231 2011-02-03 19:14:43 <Kiba> between here and several years into the future
3232 2011-02-03 19:15:10 <luke-jr> prax: Bitcoin has no inherent value, just like USD.
3233 2011-02-03 19:15:16 <luke-jr> but unlike USD, it's not vulnerable to inflation
3234 2011-02-03 19:15:19 <josh_> I dont mean to be rash, but have any of you invested > 1K$ in this?
3235 2011-02-03 19:15:25 <josh_> or even know anyone who has?
3236 2011-02-03 19:15:27 <luke-jr> ArtForz has
3237 2011-02-03 19:15:29 <Kiba> josh_: no, I mostly earned my way
3238 2011-02-03 19:15:31 <luke-jr> but not directly
3239 2011-02-03 19:15:33 <prax> go to #bitcoin-otc
3240 2011-02-03 19:15:42 <luke-jr> ArtForz spent thousands on mining rigs
3241 2011-02-03 19:15:56 <Kiba> he will spend moar!
3242 2011-02-03 19:16:05 <Kiba> he's like the first mining capitalist!
3243 2011-02-03 19:16:21 <josh_> prax: thanks. I rather talk to the developers as I am a engineer as well. Not all that interested in what the suits say.
3244 2011-02-03 19:16:40 <prax> just a suggestion as you seem new
3245 2011-02-03 19:16:41 <josh_> Kiba: anything wrong with that?
3246 2011-02-03 19:16:46 <Kiba> no
3247 2011-02-03 19:16:58 <josh_> prax?
3248 2011-02-03 19:17:05 <josh_> nm
3249 2011-02-03 19:17:06 <luke-jr> josh_: the way I see it, bitcoin is more or less presently a MLM pyramid bootstrapping a currency.
3250 2011-02-03 19:17:21 <luke-jr> its value is solely in the fact that people will accept it for purchases
3251 2011-02-03 19:17:41 <luke-jr> so it's in our interest, as BitCoin possessors, to get more people to accept it
3252 2011-02-03 19:17:53 <josh_> Ok I am confused.
3253 2011-02-03 19:17:57 <luke-jr> but unlike the scam MLMs, BitCoin turns into a real commodity in the long run
3254 2011-02-03 19:18:13 <josh_> I am looking to bitcoin as a safe haven for $.
3255 2011-02-03 19:18:32 <josh_> I want out of the US$.
3256 2011-02-03 19:18:33 <josh_> now
3257 2011-02-03 19:18:58 <luke-jr> josh_: bitcoin has a risk element of failure. it's not guaranteed safe.
3258 2011-02-03 19:19:04 <luke-jr> if the system fails, we all lose our investment.
3259 2011-02-03 19:19:24 <Kiba> go buy gold, josh_
3260 2011-02-03 19:19:25 <luke-jr> but because of that, so long as we are invested, it is in our interest to prevent failure
3261 2011-02-03 19:19:33 <Kiba> you have 30 thousand dollars for god's sake
3262 2011-02-03 19:19:36 <josh_> luke-jr: right you are. Where do you put your money? Silver/Gold?
3263 2011-02-03 19:19:40 <luke-jr> Kiba: unless he physically stores it, gold can be stolen
3264 2011-02-03 19:19:46 <luke-jr> josh_: I don't have much money.
3265 2011-02-03 19:19:59 <Kiba> I am just a poor college student
3266 2011-02-03 19:20:02 <Kiba> I barely have any saving
3267 2011-02-03 19:20:21 <luke-jr> josh_: I did just put $161 into a decent video card for mining, but that's the most I can afford to invest.
3268 2011-02-03 19:20:28 <josh_> LOL! 30K$ wont even buy you a weekend in DC anymore.
3269 2011-02-03 19:20:33 <josh_> jezus...
3270 2011-02-03 19:21:02 <josh_> So OK.. How much of the 5.x M coins are actually in currency?
3271 2011-02-03 19:21:07 <Kiba> a weekend in DC?
3272 2011-02-03 19:21:09 <Kiba> wtf?
3273 2011-02-03 19:21:13 <luke-jr> josh_: huh?
3274 2011-02-03 19:21:18 <Kiba> in circulation?
3275 2011-02-03 19:21:20 <Kiba> nobody knows
3276 2011-02-03 19:21:23 chaord has joined
3277 2011-02-03 19:21:28 <josh_> Forgive my term.
3278 2011-02-03 19:21:37 <josh_> circulation
3279 2011-02-03 19:21:45 <josh_> hmm
3280 2011-02-03 19:21:46 <luke-jr> josh_: there's 21M total. 5M are "minted".
3281 2011-02-03 19:21:51 <josh_> i see
3282 2011-02-03 19:21:52 <luke-jr> nobody knows how many are lost.
3283 2011-02-03 19:21:58 <prax> listen to what I said above and you would have an idea...
3284 2011-02-03 19:22:00 <luke-jr> nobody knows how many are being hoarded.
3285 2011-02-03 19:22:14 <Syke> the majority of those 5M bitcoins are likely in active wallets.
3286 2011-02-03 19:22:29 <josh_> Realistically. How many of you here would put a 1/2 of you 'savings' into this?
3287 2011-02-03 19:22:44 <josh_> that is, how many of you actually trust that this will take off?
3288 2011-02-03 19:22:50 <Kiba> my saving is already 66%
3289 2011-02-03 19:22:50 <luke-jr> I would, but I don't have any savings presently.
3290 2011-02-03 19:23:00 <Kiba> bitcoin
3291 2011-02-03 19:23:07 <prax> not 1/2 but I feel positive about btc
3292 2011-02-03 19:23:19 <chaord> josh_: I've been gadually shifting my savings over
3293 2011-02-03 19:23:25 <josh_> ok
3294 2011-02-03 19:23:32 <luke-jr> I bet the % of savings we would put in, fluxuates a lot based on total savings :p
3295 2011-02-03 19:23:40 <chaord> agreed
3296 2011-02-03 19:23:43 <Kiba> I am looking to diversify my saving though
3297 2011-02-03 19:24:00 <Kiba> like bitcoin stocks
3298 2011-02-03 19:24:10 <josh_> Ok, from a precentage. What percentage would you put in BTC?
3299 2011-02-03 19:24:18 <prax> I need $ for my biz, how can I make a btc stock kiba?
3300 2011-02-03 19:24:22 <luke-jr> honestly, I trust Bitcoin more than I trust the technology supporting it.
3301 2011-02-03 19:24:36 <luke-jr> if I ever lose my wallet, I lose access to all my funds irrepairably.
3302 2011-02-03 19:24:39 <josh_> Sorry to be nosy. But the actual amount I am going to put in here could be a lot more than just 10$US
3303 2011-02-03 19:24:49 <josh_> more like 1M
3304 2011-02-03 19:24:57 <Kiba> ?
3305 2011-02-03 19:25:05 <Kiba> you're rich?
3306 2011-02-03 19:25:20 <luke-jr> josh_: honestly, if you want a fail-proof currency, buy lots of ammo and non-perishable food.
3307 2011-02-03 19:25:28 <josh_> ?
3308 2011-02-03 19:25:30 <luke-jr> there's always a market for those
3309 2011-02-03 19:25:31 <josh_> ahahahahaha
3310 2011-02-03 19:25:43 <josh_> What are you one of those 'wacos'?
3311 2011-02-03 19:25:48 <josh_> lol!
3312 2011-02-03 19:25:53 <Kiba> hmm?
3313 2011-02-03 19:25:56 <Kiba> survivalists?
3314 2011-02-03 19:26:08 <luke-jr> josh_: people will always accept food/ammo as payment, no matter what happens.
3315 2011-02-03 19:26:12 <Kiba> some of them might be right wing nutcase
3316 2011-02-03 19:26:15 <luke-jr> USD crashes? food is still edible.
3317 2011-02-03 19:26:19 <josh_> luke-jr: what make u think i will need that?
3318 2011-02-03 19:26:41 <Kiba> josh_: it depends on what you think is going to happen
3319 2011-02-03 19:26:45 <luke-jr> josh_: ammo/food are good for barter
3320 2011-02-03 19:26:54 <luke-jr> always
3321 2011-02-03 19:26:57 <Kiba> if you think the end of civilization is nigh, go buy food and ammo
3322 2011-02-03 19:27:02 <josh_> conspiracy theroists!!!!!
3323 2011-02-03 19:27:04 <josh_> hhahahahaha
3324 2011-02-03 19:27:14 * Kiba is not a conspiracy theorist
3325 2011-02-03 19:27:34 <luke-jr> josh_: it only takes one pissed off dictator to get an EMP into the USD airspace…
3326 2011-02-03 19:27:35 <josh_> Ok, define 'conspiracy theorist'?
3327 2011-02-03 19:27:40 <prax> being prepared is sensible... bu tI wouldn't spend a ton on ammo heh
3328 2011-02-03 19:28:02 <luke-jr> prax: depends where you live
3329 2011-02-03 19:28:03 <Kiba> I don't even have money to consider preparing for any scenerio
3330 2011-02-03 19:28:12 <josh_> luke-jr: whhha?
3331 2011-02-03 19:28:14 <luke-jr> ammo is already a trading commodity in the US
3332 2011-02-03 19:28:17 sabalaba has joined
3333 2011-02-03 19:28:23 RazielZ has quit ()
3334 2011-02-03 19:28:28 <luke-jr> josh_: EMP is a bomb designed to wipe out technology. Line of sight.
3335 2011-02-03 19:28:42 <josh_> EMP?
3336 2011-02-03 19:28:46 <chaord> josh_: I guess having the thread of an EMP is one reason to always keep a printed copy of your private keys
3337 2011-02-03 19:28:48 <Kiba> josh_: um, I believe 9/11 is nothing more than a bunch of crazy jihadists crashing planes into building
3338 2011-02-03 19:28:51 <luke-jr> josh_: if someone blows one in space, with the entire US in line of sight, there goes all our computers
3339 2011-02-03 19:29:10 <josh_> Kiba: why?
3340 2011-02-03 19:29:12 <luke-jr> chaord: if all the PCs go down, your keys are worthless
3341 2011-02-03 19:29:38 <Kiba> josh_: why? Because TSA are a bunch of incompetent fucktards
3342 2011-02-03 19:30:02 <josh_> That is why 9/11...is what?
3343 2011-02-03 19:30:10 <josh_> TSA?
3344 2011-02-03 19:30:15 <josh_> Retards?
3345 2011-02-03 19:30:18 <chaord> luke-jr: i'm not an expert...don't EMPs only affect devices that are currently on?  wouldn't a block chain survive if it was on a thumbdrive?
3346 2011-02-03 19:30:30 <Kiba> yes, the 9/11 attack is a result of security incompetency
3347 2011-02-03 19:30:32 <luke-jr> chaord: no, that is a Matrix myth
3348 2011-02-03 19:30:38 <chaord> ah, damn
3349 2011-02-03 19:30:42 <luke-jr> chaord: optical media could survive, but that's it
3350 2011-02-03 19:30:47 <josh_> Ok... I am confused...
3351 2011-02-03 19:31:10 <josh_> luke-jr: what is the Matrix myth?
3352 2011-02-03 19:31:10 <luke-jr> chaord: to protect against EMP, you need a solid copper shield around your hardware
3353 2011-02-03 19:31:11 <Kiba> so our entire civilization is vulnerable to an EMP attack
3354 2011-02-03 19:31:12 <Kiba> scary
3355 2011-02-03 19:31:14 <luke-jr> chaord: with *no* holes at all
3356 2011-02-03 19:31:21 <luke-jr> chaord: eg, you need a sealing tight door
3357 2011-02-03 19:31:29 <luke-jr> josh_: that EMPs only affect powered-on stuff
3358 2011-02-03 19:31:34 <chaord> i think there'd be a lot of people beyond the bitcoin community that would be ticked off if an emp were detonated ;)
3359 2011-02-03 19:31:38 <luke-jr> josh_: real EMPs kill all transistors, powered or off
3360 2011-02-03 19:31:39 <josh_> ok. now I am interested: But what is EMP
3361 2011-02-03 19:31:46 <luke-jr> ElectroMagnetic Pulse
3362 2011-02-03 19:31:50 <josh_> EMP=?
3363 2011-02-03 19:31:53 <josh_> oh
3364 2011-02-03 19:31:57 <luke-jr> bomb that kills electronics
3365 2011-02-03 19:32:02 <josh_> hmm
3366 2011-02-03 19:32:05 <luke-jr> without affecting anything else
3367 2011-02-03 19:32:12 <josh_> HAARP?
3368 2011-02-03 19:32:20 <luke-jr> a single EMP detonated in US airspace can wipe out the entire US electronics
3369 2011-02-03 19:32:33 <luke-jr> minus underground EMP-shielded bunkers perhaps the military might have
3370 2011-02-03 19:32:45 <luke-jr> underwater should be safe too
3371 2011-02-03 19:32:56 <josh_> EMP==HAARP?
3372 2011-02-03 19:33:01 <luke-jr> I don't know HAARP
3373 2011-02-03 19:33:16 <josh_> haha
3374 2011-02-03 19:33:17 <josh_> ok
3375 2011-02-03 19:33:21 <josh_> let talk bitcoin
3376 2011-02-03 19:33:38 <josh_> LOL!
3377 2011-02-03 19:33:42 <josh_> sorry to get off topic
3378 2011-02-03 19:34:04 <luke-jr> HAARP looks like an attempt to detect (and therefore defend) against missiles in general
3379 2011-02-03 19:35:18 <jrabbit> Lol conspiracy theorys  on unclassified programs
3380 2011-02-03 19:35:20 <josh_> Ok. thanks guys. Just wanted an honest opinion. Nice day to all!
3381 2011-02-03 19:35:34 <jrabbit> what happened to conspiracies that actually revolved on secret programs
3382 2011-02-03 19:35:54 josh_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3383 2011-02-03 19:36:04 * luke-jr wonders if he's going to buy
3384 2011-02-03 19:36:23 <jgarzik> slush: are pool rewards given out based on (a) total shares contributed since last found block ("current round"), or (b) shares contributed only to the block that was just found ("current block")?
3385 2011-02-03 19:37:04 <jgarzik> This seems to indicate all shares _not_ contributed towards just-solved block are dropped: "When the pool mints a block, only users who worked on that block are rewarded, and only for work they did on that block."
3386 2011-02-03 19:37:36 <chaord> luke-jr: considering that the total orderbook is considerably less than $1MM including outliers, it'd be pretty silly for him to buy
3387 2011-02-03 19:38:05 <molecular> jgarzik, I can answer that: a)
3388 2011-02-03 19:38:15 <davex__> ;;bc,calc 600000
3389 2011-02-03 19:38:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 1 day, 19 hours, 46 minutes, and 11 seconds
3390 2011-02-03 19:38:35 <davex__> ;;bc,estimate
3391 2011-02-03 19:38:35 <gribble> 24275.67945196
3392 2011-02-03 19:38:36 <molecular> ;;bc,calcd 600000 22012
3393 2011-02-03 19:38:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 22012, is 1 day, 19 hours, 46 minutes, and 8 seconds
3394 2011-02-03 19:44:59 <prax> what is the new good vid card called?
3395 2011-02-03 19:48:40 satamusic has joined
3396 2011-02-03 19:54:16 fireworks has joined
3397 2011-02-03 19:56:16 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3398 2011-02-03 19:59:30 larsivi has joined
3399 2011-02-03 19:59:51 <Kiba> http://www.quora.com/Is-the-cryptocurrency-Bitcoin-a-good-idea/answer/Fernanda-Ibarra?srid=1ii
3400 2011-02-03 19:59:57 <Kiba> Hmm?
3401 2011-02-03 20:00:46 <jrabbit> Quora lol
3402 2011-02-03 20:00:59 <Kiba> I don't understand wtf this dude is talking about
3403 2011-02-03 20:01:45 <Kiba> jrabbit: do you?
3404 2011-02-03 20:02:17 <edcba> fernanda the dude ?
3405 2011-02-03 20:02:21 <Kiba> female
3406 2011-02-03 20:02:22 <Kiba> whatever
3407 2011-02-03 20:03:28 <citiz3n> i don't think the author understands how bitcoins work
3408 2011-02-03 20:03:42 <edcba> anyway artbrock doesn't seem to understand bitcoin well
3409 2011-02-03 20:03:50 <jrabbit> I'm tf2ing sorry didn't click
3410 2011-02-03 20:04:08 <Kiba> understand? All I heard is nonsense!
3411 2011-02-03 20:04:50 <jrabbit> ENTIRE TEAM IS BABIES
3412 2011-02-03 20:07:35 skeledrew has joined
3413 2011-02-03 20:07:46 <echelon> MT`AwAy, can i add additional domains to use ns1.xta.net,ns2.xta.net ?
3414 2011-02-03 20:08:34 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3415 2011-02-03 20:10:20 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3416 2011-02-03 20:10:31 mtgox has joined
3417 2011-02-03 20:11:30 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3418 2011-02-03 20:13:42 molecular has joined
3419 2011-02-03 20:15:38 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3420 2011-02-03 20:24:53 rlifchitz_ has quit (Quit: "I never worry about action, but only about inaction" (W. Churchill))
3421 2011-02-03 20:25:05 rlifchitz has joined
3422 2011-02-03 20:27:00 phantomcircuit has joined
3423 2011-02-03 20:28:46 <luke-jr> Kiba: he's right, I think
3424 2011-02-03 20:30:12 <luke-jr> there's no reason we couldn't mine blocks in order, or use a pseudo-random seed to choose who gets to do the next block
3425 2011-02-03 20:30:35 <luke-jr> of course, either of those could be predicted
3426 2011-02-03 20:31:41 <Kiba> hmm
3427 2011-02-03 20:31:44 * Kiba shrugs
3428 2011-02-03 20:32:31 alystair has joined
3429 2011-02-03 20:34:14 <luke-jr> but it doesn't make Bitcoin worthless. I do disagree on that point.
3430 2011-02-03 20:34:23 <luke-jr> just exremely inefficient and capitalist. :p
3431 2011-02-03 20:36:00 fireworks has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3432 2011-02-03 20:37:04 <luke-jr> looks like I mine about 6 BTC/day
3433 2011-02-03 20:37:29 <luke-jr> so I might break even in a month
3434 2011-02-03 20:37:35 <luke-jr> ignoring power costs
3435 2011-02-03 20:37:35 ApertureScience has quit (Quit: i said i was busy damn it!)
3436 2011-02-03 20:38:32 <Kiba> luke-jr: unless difficulty soar faster than price
3437 2011-02-03 20:39:00 <luke-jr> yes, or other factors
3438 2011-02-03 20:41:19 <prax> you in a pool luke?
3439 2011-02-03 20:50:36 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3440 2011-02-03 20:57:38 skeledrew1 has joined
3441 2011-02-03 21:00:02 <EvanR-work> luke-jr will break even faster than me since he has cheaper hardware
3442 2011-02-03 21:00:31 <EvanR-work> but i will be making more faster once i do
3443 2011-02-03 21:00:43 <luke-jr> prax: slush's for now
3444 2011-02-03 21:00:43 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3445 2011-02-03 21:01:02 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: if I bought anything better, I'd have had to buy a new PSU too
3446 2011-02-03 21:01:12 <EvanR-work> yeah
3447 2011-02-03 21:01:18 <EvanR-work> that would make it more expensive
3448 2011-02-03 21:01:24 <EvanR-work> i had to buy a whole new machine
3449 2011-02-03 21:03:17 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3450 2011-02-03 21:04:17 <EvanR-work> i think i might join the pool again
3451 2011-02-03 21:04:21 <EvanR-work> i cant stand waiting for blocks
3452 2011-02-03 21:04:28 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3453 2011-02-03 21:06:09 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3454 2011-02-03 21:06:18 <hacim> luke-jr: 5870?
3455 2011-02-03 21:06:32 <hacim> EvanR-work: yeah, psychologically it sucks
3456 2011-02-03 21:06:58 <hacim> EvanR-work: when you switch to the pool, you will have a different psychological problem... am I getting as much as I would get if I went solo?!
3457 2011-02-03 21:07:00 <EvanR-work> i still havent gotten two ;)
3458 2011-02-03 21:07:26 <EvanR-work> i copied the wallet over use the gui, and im not even waiting for 120 confirms xD
3459 2011-02-03 21:09:06 <prax> I need a real vid card...
3460 2011-02-03 21:09:24 <prax> let's see what I got here
3461 2011-02-03 21:10:42 <prax> GeForce 6150SE nForce 430
3462 2011-02-03 21:10:51 <prax> even worth it to do gpu mining?
3463 2011-02-03 21:11:31 <ArtForz> iirc < 8xxx series isn't supported at all
3464 2011-02-03 21:11:53 theymos has joined
3465 2011-02-03 21:12:07 <prax> k
3466 2011-02-03 21:12:21 <prax> think it was an 8800 I had but my system got killed in a freak accident
3467 2011-02-03 21:12:30 <prax> god, this is like an '06 vid card
3468 2011-02-03 21:12:33 <ArtForz> also, 2 shaders @ 425MHz, would be totally useless
3469 2011-02-03 21:12:44 <ArtForz> thats 0.85 Gop/s
3470 2011-02-03 21:12:46 <prax> was just looking up what it had
3471 2011-02-03 21:12:55 <prax> lol k just wondered how bad what I have is
3472 2011-02-03 21:13:06 <prax> I know how to do the whole clock/alu/$ comp when I'm rdy
3473 2011-02-03 21:13:08 <ArtForz> a 5870 is 1360 Gop/s
3474 2011-02-03 21:13:35 <ArtForz> and yes, thats a factor of 1600
3475 2011-02-03 21:14:02 <EvanR-work> Gop?
3476 2011-02-03 21:14:16 <prax> isnt there some new card coming out better than 5870?
3477 2011-02-03 21:14:16 <theymos> The IPv4 global pool is now depleted. http://www.nro.net/news/ipv4-free-pool-depleted
3478 2011-02-03 21:14:19 <ArtForz> Giga Operations
3479 2011-02-03 21:14:31 <ArtForz> = even *if* it worked, you'd get about 125kh/s
3480 2011-02-03 21:14:40 <ArtForz> and yes, kh
3481 2011-02-03 21:15:11 <ArtForz> thats what? 1/4 the speed of a intel atom?
3482 2011-02-03 21:15:30 <prax> my processor get like 2K khash
3483 2011-02-03 21:15:40 <prax> yeah, not even close to that crap amount
3484 2011-02-03 21:16:37 <EvanR-work> 2KK
3485 2011-02-03 21:16:38 <EvanR-work> aka
3486 2011-02-03 21:16:39 <EvanR-work> 2M
3487 2011-02-03 21:16:41 <EvanR-work> lol
3488 2011-02-03 21:16:42 <ArtForz> sadly integer-operations-per-second doesn't have a good abbreviation beyond IPS
3489 2011-02-03 21:17:20 <ArtForz> not to mention GIPS just looks weird
3490 2011-02-03 21:17:39 <ArtForz> or TIPS
3491 2011-02-03 21:19:01 <ArtForz> IOPS is already taken by I/O operations per second
3492 2011-02-03 21:19:39 <ArtForz> FLOPS are floating point... so INTOPS?
3493 2011-02-03 21:20:07 dwdollar has joined
3494 2011-02-03 21:21:59 <tcatm> GINTOPS, TINTOPS, PINTOPS?
3495 2011-02-03 21:23:34 <midnightmagic> Warning: overflow encountered in uint_scalars ?
3496 2011-02-03 21:23:56 <ArtForz> Pinto per second? ;)
3497 2011-02-03 21:25:26 <tcatm> Better continue to use Mhps and Ghps.
3498 2011-02-03 21:26:29 TheAncientGoat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3499 2011-02-03 21:28:37 Tritonio has joined
3500 2011-02-03 21:33:17 <x6763> anyone here use the mtgox trade api?
3501 2011-02-03 21:38:44 skeledrew has joined
3502 2011-02-03 21:42:30 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3503 2011-02-03 21:47:12 TD has joined
3504 2011-02-03 21:48:04 <poseidon> anyone have any suggestions on installing bitcoin on archlinux?
3505 2011-02-03 21:49:38 <EvanR-work> i just ran it on arch, which we use at work
3506 2011-02-03 21:49:40 <EvanR-work> works
3507 2011-02-03 21:51:13 grondilu has joined
3508 2011-02-03 21:51:44 <grondilu> bootstapping doesn't seem to work very well.  Should we be able to add IPs "manually"?
3509 2011-02-03 21:52:01 <grondilu> Shouldn't*
3510 2011-02-03 21:52:04 <jrabbit> I think you can on the command line when you start it.
3511 2011-02-03 21:52:10 <grondilu> oh
3512 2011-02-03 21:52:12 <theymos> You can. -addnode=ip
3513 2011-02-03 21:52:27 <grondilu> ok, can someone give me his IP ?
3514 2011-02-03 21:52:38 <theymos> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_nodes
3515 2011-02-03 21:55:16 phantomcircuit has joined
3516 2011-02-03 21:56:21 <grondilu> ah I don't have the "host" command.
3517 2011-02-03 21:56:36 <theymos> Use one of the static IPs.
3518 2011-02-03 21:57:02 <theymos> ("host" is part of bind-utils, I believe.)
3519 2011-02-03 21:57:04 redeye has joined
3520 2011-02-03 21:57:57 <redeye> hello, I was looking at the wiki but I havent see any documenation about how to compile on linux, anyone can send me a link please
3521 2011-02-03 21:58:14 <theymos> Can someone try telnetting to theymos.ath.cx:8333 to see if my node is up? The wiki says I'm down.
3522 2011-02-03 21:58:35 <tcatm> telnetting?
3523 2011-02-03 21:58:56 <theymos> telnet theymos.ath.cx 8333 -- you'll get a version response after the TCP connection is established.
3524 2011-02-03 21:59:53 <tcatm> connecting 99.27.237.13
3525 2011-02-03 21:59:53 <tcatm> connected
3526 2011-02-03 21:59:53 <tcatm> close
3527 2011-02-03 22:00:00 <grondilu> thanks for the tip about -addnode.  I definitely should read the wiki more.
3528 2011-02-03 22:00:59 <theymos> tcatm: Thanks. Now to figure out what's wrong...
3529 2011-02-03 22:04:09 n0m4d has joined
3530 2011-02-03 22:07:19 <theymos> Huh. Bitcoin's incoming connection capability apparently died spontaneously. Restarting Bitcoin fixed it.
3531 2011-02-03 22:08:37 <tcatm> yep. msg_version(nVersion=31902 nServices=1 nTime=Thu Feb  3 23:02:13 2011 addrTo=CAddress(nServices=1 ip=85.116.192.135 port=38386) addrFrom=CAddress(nServices=1 ip=99.27.237.13 port=8333) nNonce=0x151B201D543AEC09 strSubVer= nStartingHeight=106037)
3532 2011-02-03 22:13:53 larsivi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3533 2011-02-03 22:15:40 <theymos> I think it's a bug with maxconnections.
3534 2011-02-03 22:17:34 <luke-jr> hacim: ?
3535 2011-02-03 22:21:03 <hacim> luke-jr: is that what you are running?
3536 2011-02-03 22:29:33 <hacim> wow, miner goes silent, as slush's pool is rebooted?
3537 2011-02-03 22:29:50 <slush> yes, doing some maintenance
3538 2011-02-03 22:29:59 <hacim> :)
3539 2011-02-03 22:30:03 andrew12 has joined
3540 2011-02-03 22:30:57 andrew12 has quit (Changing host)
3541 2011-02-03 22:30:57 andrew12 has joined
3542 2011-02-03 22:31:25 * hacim patiently waits
3543 2011-02-03 22:32:08 <molecular> hey slush, thanks for rounding pool performance value, looks much nicer ;)
3544 2011-02-03 22:32:11 <theymos> Hmm... I've been interpreting maxconnections wrongly forever. It actually limits max inbound connections, whereas I always thought it limited outbound connections.
3545 2011-02-03 22:32:21 <luke-jr> hacim: 5850
3546 2011-02-03 22:32:47 <luke-jr> slush: hurry up, you're costing me bitcoins! :P
3547 2011-02-03 22:34:35 <luke-jr> in seriousness, I wonder if my GPU miner will recover from this
3548 2011-02-03 22:34:47 <hacim> luke-jr: and you get 6btc per day with that card?
3549 2011-02-03 22:34:59 <luke-jr> hacim: apparently, why?
3550 2011-02-03 22:35:15 <hacim> luke-jr: oh I just have a 5870, and I was wondering how it compared
3551 2011-02-03 22:35:28 <slush> luke-jr: fixed :-P
3552 2011-02-03 22:35:29 <luke-jr> hacim: how much do you get/day?
3553 2011-02-03 22:35:37 <luke-jr> hacim: you should update the wiki :p
3554 2011-02-03 22:35:39 <ArtForz> that sounds awfully low
3555 2011-02-03 22:35:52 <luke-jr> I get 265 MH/s with 5850
3556 2011-02-03 22:35:57 <ArtForz> yeah
3557 2011-02-03 22:36:05 <luke-jr> ArtForz: blame slush if I'm not earning enough :P
3558 2011-02-03 22:36:20 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 265000
3559 2011-02-03 22:36:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 6 minutes, and 5 seconds
3560 2011-02-03 22:36:29 <ArtForz> so about 99h/block avg
3561 2011-02-03 22:36:34 <luke-jr> yeah, 6 is awful low :o
3562 2011-02-03 22:36:42 <luke-jr> slush: what's with that? :P
3563 2011-02-03 22:36:48 <molecular> slush, did you remove http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
3564 2011-02-03 22:36:49 <ArtForz> should be more like 12
3565 2011-02-03 22:37:05 * luke-jr considers figuring out how to self-mine
3566 2011-02-03 22:37:16 <slush> molecular: no
3567 2011-02-03 22:37:29 <molecular> ah, works again, slush.
3568 2011-02-03 22:37:45 <molecular> 8.81 GHashs/s??
3569 2011-02-03 22:37:47 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
3570 2011-02-03 22:37:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106042 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 805 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 0 hours, 18 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 24416.86285879
3571 2011-02-03 22:37:59 <slush> molecular: pool was down for few minutes
3572 2011-02-03 22:38:01 <molecular> ah, people left cause site was down
3573 2011-02-03 22:38:02 * luke-jr ponders
3574 2011-02-03 22:38:04 <molecular> allright, sorry
3575 2011-02-03 22:38:06 <slush> and speed is now 5 minute average
3576 2011-02-03 22:38:11 <molecular> should think first, then talk ;)
3577 2011-02-03 22:38:17 <slush> instead of round average... preparing for bad times ;)
3578 2011-02-03 22:38:18 <molecular> slush, what was it before?
3579 2011-02-03 22:38:28 <luke-jr> wtf
3580 2011-02-03 22:38:35 <luke-jr> I stop the mining and my video card fans fire up?
3581 2011-02-03 22:38:42 <ArtForz> lol
3582 2011-02-03 22:38:56 <hacim> luke-jr: i'm not sure actually. i'm getting an average of .59462 per block
3583 2011-02-03 22:39:07 <MT`AwAy> echelon: you need to contact customer support for that
3584 2011-02-03 22:39:16 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3585 2011-02-03 22:39:17 <andrew12> luke-jr: that happens to me too, though it's usually when i'm closing my laptop
3586 2011-02-03 22:39:33 <andrew12> (just temporarily. eventually they shut off)
3587 2011-02-03 22:39:37 <ArtForz> probably PTSD
3588 2011-02-03 22:39:39 <ArtForz> ;)
3589 2011-02-03 22:39:48 <andrew12> HAHAHA
3590 2011-02-03 22:39:54 <luke-jr> slush: you should show average BTC/day :P
3591 2011-02-03 22:40:17 <slush> luke-jr: are you blind? :)
3592 2011-02-03 22:40:18 <molecular> slush: he does, on the graph page
3593 2011-02-03 22:40:21 <luke-jr> how do I confirm my miner is actually working locally?
3594 2011-02-03 22:40:25 <luke-jr> slush: maybe
3595 2011-02-03 22:40:29 <luke-jr> I mean just for me
3596 2011-02-03 22:40:43 poseidon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3597 2011-02-03 22:40:50 <luke-jr> oh, I see
3598 2011-02-03 22:41:11 <luke-jr> so… how do I confirm my miner is actually working locally?
3599 2011-02-03 22:41:21 <slush> luke-jr: check debug.log
3600 2011-02-03 22:41:33 <slush> oh, getwork() is not logged
3601 2011-02-03 22:41:34 <slush> sorry
3602 2011-02-03 22:41:37 <luke-jr> I don't see a debug.log
3603 2011-02-03 22:41:42 <hacim> looks like I am getting ~12.864/day
3604 2011-02-03 22:42:13 <ArtForz> soudns right for a 5870
3605 2011-02-03 22:42:18 <luke-jr> …
3606 2011-02-03 22:42:19 <hacim> molecular: thats not average btc/day, thats how much you got each day
3607 2011-02-03 22:42:25 <luke-jr> didn't you just say *I* should be getting 12/day?
3608 2011-02-03 22:42:29 <ArtForz> yes
3609 2011-02-03 22:42:38 <hacim> ArtForz: he has a 5850, not a 5870
3610 2011-02-03 22:42:39 <luke-jr> 5850 != 5870
3611 2011-02-03 22:42:55 <ArtForz> 5850 should be 12.1/day at current diff
3612 2011-02-03 22:42:59 <redeye> can anybody explain me please how to compile under ubuntu linux please
3613 2011-02-03 22:43:20 <ArtForz> 5870 about 15.7 or so
3614 2011-02-03 22:43:49 <ArtForz> 5970 about 26.9
3615 2011-02-03 22:44:53 <hacim> hm
3616 2011-02-03 22:44:59 <hacim> i'm not getting 15.7
3617 2011-02-03 22:45:04 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3618 2011-02-03 22:45:34 <hacim> i'm off by 2.83
3619 2011-02-03 22:46:01 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 329400
3620 2011-02-03 22:46:02 <hacim> i wonder if that is lost in RPC communication
3621 2011-02-03 22:46:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 329400 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 3 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes, and 35 seconds
3622 2011-02-03 22:46:28 <ArtForz> nm
3623 2011-02-03 22:46:32 <hacim> ?
3624 2011-02-03 22:46:41 <ArtForz> 15.04
3625 2011-02-03 22:47:02 dsg has quit (Quit: leaving)
3626 2011-02-03 22:47:13 <Syke> redeye, why do you want to compile?
3627 2011-02-03 22:47:44 <hacim> ok, i'm off by 2.536 then
3628 2011-02-03 22:47:52 <hacim> thats a lot of coin to be down
3629 2011-02-03 22:48:04 dsg has joined
3630 2011-02-03 22:48:07 <ArtForz> 50 btc / 3.32 days
3631 2011-02-03 22:48:43 pogden has joined
3632 2011-02-03 22:48:56 <hacim> 50/3.32 = 15.06 not 15.4
3633 2011-02-03 22:49:37 <ArtForz> I said 15.04
3634 2011-02-03 22:49:55 dsg has quit (Client Quit)
3635 2011-02-03 22:50:11 dsg has joined
3636 2011-02-03 22:50:14 dsg has quit (Client Quit)
3637 2011-02-03 22:51:43 dsg has joined
3638 2011-02-03 22:52:19 noagendamarket has joined
3639 2011-02-03 22:52:21 <ArtForz> also, hashrate varies depending on os, miner used, driver/sdk version and phase of the moon
3640 2011-02-03 22:52:38 Slix` has joined
3641 2011-02-03 22:53:02 <ArtForz> = stock 5870 is anywhere from <300 to ~354Mh/s
3642 2011-02-03 22:53:14 <redeye> Syke I donwloaded and it was a .tar.gz with src folder so I tough I needed to do it
3643 2011-02-03 22:53:43 <Syke> just extract it, the binary is in the bin folder
3644 2011-02-03 22:53:59 genjix has joined
3645 2011-02-03 22:54:15 <rlifchitz> hi
3646 2011-02-03 22:54:16 <jgarzik> pool stats: http://pool.yyz.us/stats.cgi
3647 2011-02-03 22:54:43 <rlifchitz> i'm using m0mchil miner with an ATI HD 5970 with Debian
3648 2011-02-03 22:54:59 <rlifchitz> and can only manage to use 1 gpu
3649 2011-02-03 22:55:08 <rlifchitz> is the problem known?
3650 2011-02-03 22:55:11 <ArtForz> yes
3651 2011-02-03 22:55:34 <ArtForz> disable crossfire, make sure you have 2 devices listed in xorg.conf, export DISPLAY=:0
3652 2011-02-03 22:56:06 <rlifchitz> crossfire is disabled
3653 2011-02-03 22:56:08 <ArtForz> debian/ubuntu "helpfully" defaults DISPLAY to :0.0
3654 2011-02-03 22:56:59 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3655 2011-02-03 22:57:01 <rlifchitz> 2 sections in xorg.conf also ok
3656 2011-02-03 22:57:17 <slush> jgarzik: you could at least change order of the rows ;)
3657 2011-02-03 22:58:50 <midnightmagic> I did not have to disable crossfire.
3658 2011-02-03 22:59:10 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
3659 2011-02-03 22:59:13 <midnightmagic> All I had to do was ensure xorg.conf was connected with screens to the right device via pci bus ID.
3660 2011-02-03 22:59:20 <ArtForz> some people have to, some people don't
3661 2011-02-03 22:59:56 draginx has joined
3662 2011-02-03 22:59:58 <midnightmagic> yeah, and it confused the hell out of me when I thought I was forced to build VGA dongles and use amdcccle to get it working.
3663 2011-02-03 23:00:07 <rlifchitz> ArtForz: thanks but everything is ok so far
3664 2011-02-03 23:00:14 <ArtForz> well, windows is weird that way
3665 2011-02-03 23:00:15 <rlifchitz> problem still there
3666 2011-02-03 23:00:18 <draginx> Whats the best way to constantly refresh the list of transactions witihin my wallet? (I want all addresses)
3667 2011-02-03 23:00:35 <ArtForz> does aticonfig --odgt show all devices?
3668 2011-02-03 23:01:10 <ArtForz> wait... don't you have to run one instance of m0s miner for each device?
3669 2011-02-03 23:02:04 <rlifchitz> aticonfig --odgt show only one device
3670 2011-02-03 23:02:15 <ArtForz> that already sounds wrong
3671 2011-02-03 23:02:20 <rlifchitz> but i see both when trying to enable/disable crossfire
3672 2011-02-03 23:02:27 <rlifchitz> with aticonfig
3673 2011-02-03 23:02:32 <Syke> I have dual 5770 working fine
3674 2011-02-03 23:02:36 <rlifchitz> a master and a slave
3675 2011-02-03 23:02:37 <ArtForz> aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt
3676 2011-02-03 23:02:39 <Syke> --odgt shows only one adapter
3677 2011-02-03 23:03:01 <ArtForz> should show 2 5900 series adapters
3678 2011-02-03 23:03:07 <Syke> --adapter=all then shows both
3679 2011-02-03 23:03:18 <ArtForz> okay, so X sees both GPUs
3680 2011-02-03 23:03:46 <rlifchitz> i think so
3681 2011-02-03 23:04:20 <ArtForz> what does starting miner after setting DISPLAY=:0.1 do?
3682 2011-02-03 23:04:40 <rlifchitz> do i have to run 2 miners?
3683 2011-02-03 23:04:47 <Syke> DiabloMiner works great with multiple cards
3684 2011-02-03 23:05:08 <rlifchitz> Syke: both DiabloMiner and m0mchill show 272Mh/s
3685 2011-02-03 23:05:22 <ArtForz> yeah
3686 2011-02-03 23:05:35 <ArtForz> diablominers startup script also automatically sets DISPLAY=:0
3687 2011-02-03 23:05:45 <Syke> do "env DISPLAY=:0 ./DiabloMiner-Linux.sh -u username -p password"
3688 2011-02-03 23:06:00 <ArtForz> no
3689 2011-02-03 23:06:06 <ArtForz> diablominers .sh automagically does it
3690 2011-02-03 23:06:10 genjix has joined
3691 2011-02-03 23:06:12 <ArtForz> you have to do it manually for m0s I think
3692 2011-02-03 23:06:32 <Syke> DISPLAY needs to be set on my Diablo
3693 2011-02-03 23:06:33 * genjix pokes MT`AwAy 
3694 2011-02-03 23:06:34 dsg has quit (Quit: leaving)
3695 2011-02-03 23:06:36 <ArtForz> really
3696 2011-02-03 23:06:44 <ArtForz> okay, guess it might not have had it in older versions
3697 2011-02-03 23:07:23 redeye has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3698 2011-02-03 23:07:42 <genjix> MT`AwAy: yoooo :D
3699 2011-02-03 23:07:47 <MT`AwAy> hi
3700 2011-02-03 23:07:51 <midnightmagic> aticonfig --lsa   <-- use this to detect devices.
3701 2011-02-03 23:07:55 <genjix> im back around for good now :)
3702 2011-02-03 23:08:01 <ArtForz> --lsa lists all devices
3703 2011-02-03 23:08:11 <ArtForz> even devices not even configured in corg
3704 2011-02-03 23:08:12 <ArtForz> *xrog
3705 2011-02-03 23:08:13 <genjix> MT`AwAy: + we have a gbp account
3706 2011-02-03 23:08:14 <ArtForz> *xorg
3707 2011-02-03 23:08:15 <rlifchitz> ArtForz: aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt gives good adapter 0 but "Get temperature failed for Adapter 1"
3708 2011-02-03 23:08:32 <ArtForz> okay, that sounds like a problem
3709 2011-02-03 23:08:46 <MT`AwAy> genjix: nice
3710 2011-02-03 23:08:47 <genjix> MT`AwAy: did you already make something? if yes, send me a github link... if not, i'll start on something
3711 2011-02-03 23:08:48 <midnightmagic> that is probably an xorg.conf config issue. pastebin your xorg.conf, lemme take a peek.
3712 2011-02-03 23:08:58 <MT`AwAy> genjix: better talk private
3713 2011-02-03 23:09:01 <genjix> ok
3714 2011-02-03 23:09:10 <midnightmagic> also, pastebin the results of: aticonfig --lsa
3715 2011-02-03 23:09:39 <rlifchitz> http://pastebin.com/85s3jPu1 for xorg.conf
3716 2011-02-03 23:09:50 <Syke> "aticonfig --initial --adapter=all" gave me a good xorg.conf
3717 2011-02-03 23:09:50 <molecular> I also had this today, "Get temperature failed for Adapter 1". after a reboot it was gone, weird
3718 2011-02-03 23:10:07 <midnightmagic> do you actually have two monitors you want to run?
3719 2011-02-03 23:10:09 <ArtForz> yeah, also happened on one of my boxes, no clue what I did to fix it
3720 2011-02-03 23:10:10 <molecular> but I was fiddling with Voltage, so this might have other reasons
3721 2011-02-03 23:10:25 <midnightmagic> spotted the problem.
3722 2011-02-03 23:10:30 <ArtForz> wrond DeviceID
3723 2011-02-03 23:10:36 <midnightmagic> your BusID for device[0]-1 is the same as your first one.
3724 2011-02-03 23:10:52 <ArtForz> create a good xorg.xonf with aticonfig --adapter=all --initial -f
3725 2011-02-03 23:11:06 <midnightmagic> ack don't do that. :-)
3726 2011-02-03 23:11:06 <rlifchitz> thx
3727 2011-02-03 23:11:15 <midnightmagic> ha ha.. :)
3728 2011-02-03 23:12:00 <ArtForz> the "Screen 1" for dev 0-1 also looks pointless
3729 2011-02-03 23:12:07 <midnightmagic> sorry Art. :) I've had bad experiences with aticonfig auto-creating. his file is correct except for the BusID and a missing Screen[0]-1 definition. :)
3730 2011-02-03 23:12:27 <midnightmagic> oh, no he isn't. it's just down further.
3731 2011-02-03 23:12:37 <ArtForz> yea
3732 2011-02-03 23:12:38 * midnightmagic learns how to scroll down.
3733 2011-02-03 23:12:51 <ArtForz> looks like a completely stock aticonfig-created xorg.conf
3734 2011-02-03 23:12:58 <ArtForz> except for the weird 2nd device sectiobn
3735 2011-02-03 23:13:19 <midnightmagic> if there isn't a second monitor, it's very possible that if he moves his mouse to the right of the visible screen his machine will wedge.
3736 2011-02-03 23:13:35 <ArtForz> had no problem with that here
3737 2011-02-03 23:14:11 <Syke> I have no second monitor, but my mouse will go over there and come back just fine
3738 2011-02-03 23:14:18 <ArtForz> I can just move stuff off-screen for about 3 miles
3739 2011-02-03 23:14:26 <midnightmagic> what I do is place the screen section of invisible fake-screens at least one pixel to the right of the visible screen and the mouse won't cross any boundaries then.
3740 2011-02-03 23:15:02 <ArtForz> my miner boxes run without screens or input devices anyway, so I dont really care
3741 2011-02-03 23:15:17 <midnightmagic> did you have to use vga dongles?
3742 2011-02-03 23:15:21 <ArtForz> nope
3743 2011-02-03 23:15:30 <midnightmagic> turns out all the dongles i carefully crafted were completely pointless and unnecessary.
3744 2011-02-03 23:15:35 <ArtForz> not to mention X without any GUI programs on the box is kinda... uninteresting
3745 2011-02-03 23:15:44 <ArtForz> well, they usually are needed on windows
3746 2011-02-03 23:15:59 <ArtForz> at least with certain windows/catalyst combinations
3747 2011-02-03 23:16:13 <midnightmagic> and amdcccle needs them too to detect some kind of screen attached.
3748 2011-02-03 23:16:15 <midnightmagic> i hate amdcccle.
3749 2011-02-03 23:17:31 <ArtForz> yeah, it's stupid
3750 2011-02-03 23:17:41 <ArtForz> also fun, play accelerated video
3751 2011-02-03 23:17:43 <jgarzik> Mining pool test results
3752 2011-02-03 23:17:44 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3078.msg44159#msg44159
3753 2011-02-03 23:17:54 <ArtForz> driver "helpfully" clocks 5970 down to ~400Mhz
3754 2011-02-03 23:17:56 <jgarzik> slush: ^^
3755 2011-02-03 23:18:13 <midnightmagic> rlifchitz: --lsa should show you a second device at 04:00.0. switch your device to that, save, type in "sync" and hit enter, and then restart X or reboot as necessary. it should Just Work for you then.
3756 2011-02-03 23:18:31 <ArtForz> doesn't matter if you're also mining, it'll stay at 400 until you stop the video
3757 2011-02-03 23:18:52 doublec has joined
3758 2011-02-03 23:18:54 <rlifchitz> ArtForz & midnightmagic : ok it now works:)
3759 2011-02-03 23:19:02 <rlifchitz> it was my xorg file
3760 2011-02-03 23:19:05 <midnightmagic> ah, congrats..!
3761 2011-02-03 23:19:07 <rlifchitz> thx a lot guys!
3762 2011-02-03 23:19:18 <ArtForz> btw, dont forget to check temps
3763 2011-02-03 23:19:21 <rlifchitz> m0mchil requires 2 processes
3764 2011-02-03 23:19:24 <midnightmagic> what art said.
3765 2011-02-03 23:19:33 <rlifchitz> but diablominer detects both on a single run
3766 2011-02-03 23:19:49 <rlifchitz> ArtForz: what are normal temps?
3767 2011-02-03 23:19:49 <ArtForz> aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt
3768 2011-02-03 23:19:58 <ArtForz> I personally try to stay well <80
3769 2011-02-03 23:20:07 <rlifchitz> ok
3770 2011-02-03 23:20:13 <rlifchitz> 76°C right now
3771 2011-02-03 23:20:16 <ArtForz> but anything <85 should be safe long term
3772 2011-02-03 23:21:15 dsg has joined
3773 2011-02-03 23:21:15 dsg has quit (Changing host)
3774 2011-02-03 23:21:15 dsg has joined
3775 2011-02-03 23:21:53 <slush> jgarzik: geographically distributed mining is not needed with better protocol. 140ms between USA and Europe is far enough for one request per minute or so
3776 2011-02-03 23:23:37 <slush> jgarzik: btw is you interested in cooperation on protocol?
3777 2011-02-03 23:23:39 <luke-jr> I'm not sure even the current protocol is an issue
3778 2011-02-03 23:23:46 <slush> *are you O:-)
3779 2011-02-03 23:23:52 <luke-jr> why not just getdata when you're a minute away from completing the current?
3780 2011-02-03 23:24:09 <slush> luke-jr: it is, because it is very ineffective on bandwidth
3781 2011-02-03 23:24:22 <luke-jr> slush: relevance if you getdata early?
3782 2011-02-03 23:24:45 <slush> luke-jr: ?
3783 2011-02-03 23:25:14 <luke-jr> if you getdata early, you have the next "stuff" waiting locally when it's ready
3784 2011-02-03 23:25:55 <slush> so imagine you have 10 000 clients on server
3785 2011-02-03 23:26:00 <jgarzik> slush: yes
3786 2011-02-03 23:26:04 <slush> every byte counts
3787 2011-02-03 23:26:21 <slush> jgarzik: oh, nice hashrate on your pool now :)
3788 2011-02-03 23:26:26 <slush> wink wink :)
3789 2011-02-03 23:26:29 <jgarzik> slush: har :)
3790 2011-02-03 23:26:38 n0m4d has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3791 2011-02-03 23:26:44 <luke-jr> slush: oh, in that regard
3792 2011-02-03 23:26:46 da2ce7 has joined
3793 2011-02-03 23:26:46 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
3794 2011-02-03 23:26:46 da2ce7 has joined
3795 2011-02-03 23:26:48 <luke-jr> slush: just compress it?
3796 2011-02-03 23:26:54 <slush> luke-jr: random data?
3797 2011-02-03 23:27:07 <slush> you have also http headers which cannot be compressed
3798 2011-02-03 23:27:17 <da2ce7> hey all
3799 2011-02-03 23:27:23 <ArtForz> no, textual representation of not-quite-random data
3800 2011-02-03 23:27:31 <luke-jr> slush: isn't it base64 encoded?
3801 2011-02-03 23:27:39 <slush> simpy said, you are sending ~1kB for every request, but you need few bytes
3802 2011-02-03 23:27:42 <ArtForz> iirc worse, hex
3803 2011-02-03 23:28:32 <devon_hillard> slush, what's the equivalent of GH/s you're getting from donations?
3804 2011-02-03 23:28:37 <slush> so sending only needed binary data without headers and such may save bandwidth for thousands other users
3805 2011-02-03 23:28:42 <ArtForz> yep
3806 2011-02-03 23:28:44 <jgarzik> slush: I am very interesting in collaborating.  I was writing a bitcoin patch like this:  'pushwork' clients connect via TCP to bitcoind.  when new tx or block arrives, bitcoin will write new work to all connected TCP sockets.  new miner solves work, they write solution to TCP socket.  pushwork is simple binary protocol.
3807 2011-02-03 23:29:00 <ArtForz> with a binary protocol you need well < 100 bytes/request
3808 2011-02-03 23:29:03 <slush> devon_hillard: I didn't calculated it to hashrate, but it is less than 0.3 per block now
3809 2011-02-03 23:29:05 <draginx> Whats the best way to constantly refresh the list of transactions witihin my wallet? (I want all addresses)
3810 2011-02-03 23:29:09 <slush> btc
3811 2011-02-03 23:29:16 <luke-jr> slush: save bandwidth *for you* mainly
3812 2011-02-03 23:29:20 <luke-jr> 1 kB is nothing to the user
3813 2011-02-03 23:29:42 <slush> luke-jr: of course
3814 2011-02-03 23:29:45 <devon_hillard> ;;bc;calc 30000000
3815 2011-02-03 23:29:45 <gribble> Error: "bc;calc" is not a valid command.
3816 2011-02-03 23:29:50 <ArtForz> it's also a lot cheaper to build/parse
3817 2011-02-03 23:29:52 <jgarzik> luke-jr: it matters to all users, if you can get packet size < ethernet MTU
3818 2011-02-03 23:29:52 <slush> but YOU are paying ME for running server :)
3819 2011-02-03 23:29:52 <devon_hillard> ;;bc,calc 30000000
3820 2011-02-03 23:29:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 30000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 52 minutes and 31 seconds
3821 2011-02-03 23:30:11 <slush> so if there can be connected 1000x more server on the same resources, cost per user is much lower
3822 2011-02-03 23:30:22 <luke-jr> jgarzik: only so long as latency matters
3823 2011-02-03 23:30:39 <slush> jgarzik: how you solved uniqueness of job?
3824 2011-02-03 23:30:48 <slush> jgarzik: I mean, are you handling extranonce somehow?
3825 2011-02-03 23:31:09 <jgarzik> slush: use same machinery as RPC getwork...
3826 2011-02-03 23:31:13 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,calc 550000
3827 2011-02-03 23:31:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 550000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 1 day, 23 hours, 44 minutes, and 56 seconds
3828 2011-02-03 23:31:50 <slush> jgarzik: which is known security issue when you allow ntime changes
3829 2011-02-03 23:32:08 <slush> ...and you have to allow ntime changes, because people don't want to ask for every single job
3830 2011-02-03 23:32:32 <ArtForz> errr... why would that be a security issue?
3831 2011-02-03 23:32:42 <slush> because extranonce rotates
3832 2011-02-03 23:32:58 <slush> and job is unique only when extranonce and ntime is both unique ;)
3833 2011-02-03 23:33:05 <slush> I spend DAYS on this
3834 2011-02-03 23:33:51 <slush> so when you use built-in extranonce mechanism and allow user to change ntime, you have troubles
3835 2011-02-03 23:33:57 <da2ce7> I want to outsoruce my bounty management...
3836 2011-02-03 23:34:09 <slush> if you are registering job per user, as I'm doing, it allow duplicate job to be submitted
3837 2011-02-03 23:34:14 <jgarzik> slush: in latest code I:  cache last 60 seconds worth of getwork output in memory.  upon submission, I require solution to match getwork output, excluding nonce and ntime fields.  ntime can then be compared and kept within a reasonable bounds (time +/- 5 seconds)
3838 2011-02-03 23:34:21 <da2ce7> is there anyone excited to to take upon the roll?
3839 2011-02-03 23:34:21 <slush> and if you register job globally, you reject valid job for second user
3840 2011-02-03 23:34:24 <da2ce7> role.
3841 2011-02-03 23:34:27 <slush> which has impact to CDF
3842 2011-02-03 23:34:44 <devon_hillard> slush: have you also considered adding a donate option for the miner programs?
3843 2011-02-03 23:35:03 <luke-jr> devon_hillard: slush's pool already has a donate option
3844 2011-02-03 23:35:06 <ArtForz> I use coinbase-keypair-per-miner model
3845 2011-02-03 23:35:09 <slush> devon_hillard: yes, I considered this. But didn't implemented yet :)
3846 2011-02-03 23:35:11 <jgarzik> devon_hillard: he posts a donation address.  that's how I donate, because I don't like percentage donations.
3847 2011-02-03 23:35:16 <hacim> ArtForz: yeah, i'm using debian sid here, with m0n's miner, 2.3 sdk (tried the others with no difference), overclocked to 900mhz and today is the new moon. i tend to get ~339xxx Khps
3848 2011-02-03 23:35:31 <slush> ArtForz: there is big difference. You don't care about cheating miners
3849 2011-02-03 23:35:55 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3850 2011-02-03 23:35:57 <ArtForz> *blink*
3851 2011-02-03 23:36:14 <devon_hillard> jgarzik: yes, but steady recurring donations would not hurt
3852 2011-02-03 23:36:15 <luke-jr> hacim: slush's pool has a lot of overhead apparently
3853 2011-02-03 23:36:37 <luke-jr> devon_hillard: slush's pool has a function for that already
3854 2011-02-03 23:36:47 <jgarzik> devon_hillard: if slush added a "x.xxx BTC / month donation" option, I would use it :)
3855 2011-02-03 23:36:48 <ArtForz> it's pretty trivial to keep a hashtable of submitted H==0 solutions for current block across all miners
3856 2011-02-03 23:36:56 * jgarzik prefers fixed sum.  more predictable.
3857 2011-02-03 23:37:00 <luke-jr> jgarzik: use a cronjob
3858 2011-02-03 23:37:04 <ArtForz> well, maybe not with getwork idiocy
3859 2011-02-03 23:37:39 <luke-jr> btw, is this a problem? Warning: overflow encountered in uint_scalars
3860 2011-02-03 23:37:58 <luke-jr> I get it all the time in m0n's miner
3861 2011-02-03 23:38:02 <jgarzik> ArtForz: i filtered out all duplicate hashes (duplicate solutions with same hash), based on history of last 10,000 submissions to the pool
3862 2011-02-03 23:38:08 <hacim> draginx: use watch
3863 2011-02-03 23:38:16 <jgarzik> the only time it would filter out dups was with the same miner
3864 2011-02-03 23:38:23 <slush> jgarzik: why time-fixed donations are better?
3865 2011-02-03 23:38:51 <draginx> hacim: I do not see "watch" command https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Api
3866 2011-02-03 23:39:06 <jgarzik> slush: that's my preference in allocating money
3867 2011-02-03 23:39:10 <slush> jgarzik: you pay constant money for something which is probabilistic
3868 2011-02-03 23:39:16 <hacim> draginx: are you on linux?
3869 2011-02-03 23:39:28 <draginx> hacim: mac osx, but my bitcoind is on linix
3870 2011-02-03 23:39:30 <draginx> linux*
3871 2011-02-03 23:39:35 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: I'm seeing that too, for what it's worth. i haven't seen a solution out of that miner since upgrading the m0mchil miner
3872 2011-02-03 23:39:54 <ArtForz> yes, thats the definition of mining ;)
3873 2011-02-03 23:41:13 <slush> jgarzik: well, my way to push protocol is to have unique extranonce per worker
3874 2011-02-03 23:41:25 <hacim> draginx: open a terminal and see what happens when you type 'watch -n1 'bitcoind getbalance'
3875 2011-02-03 23:41:34 <slush> so when you don't have 'workers', I doubt we can use the same solution :)
3876 2011-02-03 23:41:37 <hacim> err: watch -n1 'bitcoind getbalance'
3877 2011-02-03 23:42:02 <hacim> i'm not seeing that error with m0n
3878 2011-02-03 23:42:28 grondilu has joined
3879 2011-02-03 23:42:36 sabalaba has joined
3880 2011-02-03 23:42:50 <grondilu> I'm stuck at 106050, normal ?
3881 2011-02-03 23:43:13 <ArtForz> ;;bc,blocks
3882 2011-02-03 23:43:13 <gribble> 106050
3883 2011-02-03 23:43:26 <OneFixt> Isn't this a potential problem with m0m's miner + pool mining:  the miner launches many threads at once, one thread per nonce, and all threads output to the same variable; for a regular miner that's fine, but for a pool miner, you are very likely to overwrite a solved block with a diff1 block.
3884 2011-02-03 23:43:28 <slush> lol
3885 2011-02-03 23:43:37 <grondilu> ok
3886 2011-02-03 23:43:50 <OneFixt> diff1 hash*
3887 2011-02-03 23:43:58 <necrodearia> ;;bc,diff
3888 2011-02-03 23:43:59 <gribble> 22012.4941572
3889 2011-02-03 23:44:02 <luke-jr> OneFixt: there are no "variables" at the CPU level
3890 2011-02-03 23:44:08 <OneFixt> output[0] = nonce;
3891 2011-02-03 23:44:25 <ArtForz> over one kernel run
3892 2011-02-03 23:44:34 <luke-jr> OneFixt: I would hope it's stored on the stack.
3893 2011-02-03 23:44:36 <draginx> hacim: so there is no documentation on watch? :(
3894 2011-02-03 23:44:37 <ArtForz> which is a few M items at most
3895 2011-02-03 23:44:57 <ArtForz> probability of 2+ H==0 in one run is pretty damn low
3896 2011-02-03 23:45:01 <hacim> draginx: man watch
3897 2011-02-03 23:45:37 <draginx>  watch - execute a program periodically, showing output fullscreen
3898 2011-02-03 23:45:44 <draginx> thats not good, i don want to execute it persay
3899 2011-02-03 23:45:46 <OneFixt> ArtForz: the probablility of diff1 is 22000 times greater than probability of winning hash
3900 2011-02-03 23:45:55 <ArtForz> so?
3901 2011-02-03 23:46:18 <OneFixt> so you can overwrite the winning hash with the diff1 hash
3902 2011-02-03 23:46:20 <draginx> I guess if I do ./bitcoind -server -daemon then if I just do watch -n 1 'bitcoind blah blah' it'll work?
3903 2011-02-03 23:46:27 <ArtForz> 22000 times pretty damn close to 0 is still pretty damn close to  0
3904 2011-02-03 23:46:42 <hacim> draginx: yeah
3905 2011-02-03 23:46:43 <draginx> as in not reexecuting just sending a command
3906 2011-02-03 23:46:53 <hacim> hm?
3907 2011-02-03 23:46:56 <draginx> ah very cool :) Ive been using periodic_timer in ruby for something like this ><
3908 2011-02-03 23:47:03 <draginx> hacim: I dont want bitcoind to be executed multiple times
3909 2011-02-03 23:47:14 <draginx> I want it running once, staying on, and then having me send commands to it O-o
3910 2011-02-03 23:47:16 <hacim> every 1 second you will be executing it
3911 2011-02-03 23:47:19 <hacim> oh
3912 2011-02-03 23:47:22 <draginx> but i just want to retrieve a list of all transactions
3913 2011-02-03 23:47:23 <hacim> yeah you are doing that
3914 2011-02-03 23:47:25 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3915 2011-02-03 23:47:36 <draginx> anyway to delete transactions? :P
3916 2011-02-03 23:47:51 <grondilu> also, bitcoinwatch is stuck at 106034...  ain't that weird?
3917 2011-02-03 23:48:45 <grondilu> ;;bc,blocks
3918 2011-02-03 23:48:45 <gribble> 106050
3919 2011-02-03 23:49:45 <OneFixt> ArtForz: you lose 7% on this
3920 2011-02-03 23:50:05 <OneFixt> ArtForz: chance to find diff 1 block at 300mhs per core is 7.1%
3921 2011-02-03 23:50:17 <ArtForz> wtf?
3922 2011-02-03 23:50:32 <OneFixt> actually you lose 3.5%
3923 2011-02-03 23:50:36 <ArtForz> how many million nonces per kernel run are you doing?
3924 2011-02-03 23:50:39 <OneFixt> in one second
3925 2011-02-03 23:50:55 <OneFixt> i'm talking about m0m's miner the way it's set up
3926 2011-02-03 23:50:55 <ArtForz> it's PER KERNEL RUN not per second
3927 2011-02-03 23:51:08 <ArtForz> then m0s miner is fucking stupid
3928 2011-02-03 23:51:12 <OneFixt> yeah but he's running all kernels, only checking output when it's done
3929 2011-02-03 23:51:24 <ArtForz> ?
3930 2011-02-03 23:52:36 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
3931 2011-02-03 23:52:59 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3932 2011-02-03 23:52:59 <da2ce7> Over my break thinking of defences from a +50% generation attack.  I think that I may have come across a method to make bitcoin more secure.
3933 2011-02-03 23:53:35 <ArtForz> I'm getting 0.55% for 400M nonces per clEnqueueNDRangeKernel
3934 2011-02-03 23:53:41 neocode has joined
3935 2011-02-03 23:53:54 <ArtForz> how the fuck do you end up at 3.5% ?
3936 2011-02-03 23:53:54 <da2ce7> We should make the defult clients 'ignore' blocks that unreasionably orphan valid blocks.
3937 2011-02-03 23:54:33 <OneFixt>                         kernelStart = time()
3938 2011-02-03 23:54:34 <OneFixt>                         self.miner.search(      queue, (globalThreads, ), (self.worksize, ),
3939 2011-02-03 23:54:34 <OneFixt>                                                                 state[0], state[1], state[2], state[3], state[4], state[5], state[6], state[7],
3940 2011-02-03 23:54:36 <da2ce7> secondaly we should ignore blocks that ignore vaild transactions that have higher fees than included.
3941 2011-02-03 23:54:47 <OneFixt> ugh, throttled
3942 2011-02-03 23:54:48 <OneFixt> anyway
3943 2011-02-03 23:54:52 <OneFixt>  kernelStart = time()
3944 2011-02-03 23:54:59 <OneFixt>  self.miner.search(   ..... )
3945 2011-02-03 23:55:05 <OneFixt> cl.enqueue_read_buffer(queue, output_buf, output)
3946 2011-02-03 23:55:27 <ArtForz> well, probably self.miner.search only does *one* clEnqueueNDRangeKernel, no?
3947 2011-02-03 23:55:31 <OneFixt> so he's running enough threads to take up a whole second from what i understand
3948 2011-02-03 23:55:43 <ArtForz> so you try globalThreads nonces per run
3949 2011-02-03 23:55:50 <necrodearia> nanotube, In your latest spreadsheet, none of the cells use the value from latest initial difficulty.
3950 2011-02-03 23:56:36 <necrodearia> I think I fixed it though.
3951 2011-02-03 23:56:59 <OneFixt> the miner adjusts #threads until kernel time is 1 sec
3952 2011-02-03 23:57:04 <OneFixt> and only checks output at the end
3953 2011-02-03 23:57:37 <ArtForz> thats still only like 350M nonces/run on a OCed 5870
3954 2011-02-03 23:57:40 <OneFixt> which is perfectly fine for regular mining, who cares if you overwrite a valid hash with another valid hash
3955 2011-02-03 23:57:54 retsilex is now known as xelister
3956 2011-02-03 23:58:07 <ArtForz> chance of any nonce being H==0 is ... 1/2**32
3957 2011-02-03 23:58:36 <OneFixt> which is 1 in 12 kernel runs then
3958 2011-02-03 23:58:41 <ArtForz> so mean is 350M / 2**32 H==0 solutions per run
3959 2011-02-03 23:58:53 <OneFixt> you're right in that, but for pool mining that's a problem
3960 2011-02-03 23:59:03 <OneFixt> 1 in 12 valid hashes will be overwritten by an invalid one
3961 2011-02-03 23:59:04 <ArtForz> yep
3962 2011-02-03 23:59:07 <ArtForz> no
3963 2011-02-03 23:59:19 <ArtForz> one in 12 runs average produces ONE H==0
3964 2011-02-03 23:59:19 <OneFixt> sorry 1 in 6
3965 2011-02-03 23:59:27 <ArtForz> you only get a overwrite if you get TWO in ONE RUN
3966 2011-02-03 23:59:53 <draginx> Whats the best way to pipeline transactions? So as they come through I can just store those values into a local DB of mine