1 2011-02-07 00:00:46 echelon has joined
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  12 2011-02-07 01:19:27 lfm has joined
  13 2011-02-07 01:21:24 <lfm> so still no gribble
  14 2011-02-07 01:22:31 al_ has joined
  15 2011-02-07 01:25:46 <andrew12> lfm: gribble is here
  16 2011-02-07 01:26:22 <lfm> oh I see it now
  17 2011-02-07 01:28:05 <andrew12> hmm
  18 2011-02-07 01:28:16 <andrew12> I keep getting $100 adwords gift cards in the mail
  19 2011-02-07 01:28:32 <andrew12> should I use it to advertise bitcoin? xD
  20 2011-02-07 01:30:44 <lfm> sure
  21 2011-02-07 01:33:43 <Cusipzzz> andrew12: rigged, i only got 75$
  22 2011-02-07 01:41:09 yegg1 has joined
  23 2011-02-07 01:41:28 echelon has joined
  24 2011-02-07 01:42:41 <yegg1> Does bitcoin have use for/accept donations?
  25 2011-02-07 01:44:24 <lfm> yeggl sure send me some at 13hAeGdrrRHMG9ZCu4eU2YENQRRfNc9LDh
  26 2011-02-07 01:46:58 <yegg1> lfm: hah, is there an official process?
  27 2011-02-07 01:47:48 <lfm> are you asking me for an official answer? really? after I gave you that line?
  28 2011-02-07 01:49:01 <lfm> yeggl remember bitcoin is decetralized. so its kinda not realistic to expect a central collection point for donations
  29 2011-02-07 01:49:25 <andrew12> yegg1: if you want to receive donations, you post your address somewhere. if you want to send donations, you find someone that has a bitcoin address and send them some bitcoins
  30 2011-02-07 01:50:00 <andrew12> the "official process" is use of the client ;)
  31 2011-02-07 01:50:11 <yegg1> andrew12: i meant donating to the bitcoin project itself
  32 2011-02-07 01:50:33 <lfm> if you wanted to give Satoshi some bitcoins, he has stated he has lota of bitcoins already so there is not much point sending him any small amounts
  33 2011-02-07 01:51:19 <Kiba> I would like to see the bitcoin.org site self sustain itself only on bitcoin donation
  34 2011-02-07 01:51:23 <dirtyfilthy> yegg1: the method people use is posting a bounty for something they'd like to see done with/to bitcoin
  35 2011-02-07 01:51:24 <Kiba> and bitcoin hosts
  36 2011-02-07 01:54:08 xelister has joined
  37 2011-02-07 01:54:29 <xelister> how many W does 5770 take, and 5870 ?
  38 2011-02-07 01:54:54 <xelister> how many W does radeon take: 5770=150W? 5870=200W???, 5970=300W ?
  39 2011-02-07 01:55:14 * xelister calculates electrisity costs
  40 2011-02-07 01:55:24 <lfm> i think 5770 is spozed to be 105w
  41 2011-02-07 01:55:24 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  42 2011-02-07 01:55:53 <xelister> lfm: 150W afair?
  43 2011-02-07 01:56:22 <lfm> there is a table on wikipeadia
  44 2011-02-07 01:56:24 <[Noodles]> 5850=150W stock
  45 2011-02-07 01:56:25 <xelister> 150 W means that card will use 150*24*30/1000 = 108 kWh per month?
  46 2011-02-07 01:56:54 <lfm> xelist that looks right ya
  47 2011-02-07 01:56:57 <xelister> what is price of 1 kWh (home utilities) in say USA, and in other countries?
  48 2011-02-07 01:57:14 <lfm> theres a thread on that in the forum
  49 2011-02-07 01:58:20 <xelister> afair 0.30 PLN/kWh (0.10 USD/kWh) in PL
  50 2011-02-07 01:58:51 <lfm> thats pretty cheap compared to a lot of places
  51 2011-02-07 01:59:07 <xelister> or .40 (0.13)
  52 2011-02-07 01:59:10 <lfm> not the cheapest tho
  53 2011-02-07 01:59:44 <xelister> ArtForz: your unit was... 200Mhash, 2000 USD investment to get hardware, around 20 W usage?
  54 2011-02-07 02:00:21 <lfm> I thinkj  he spent more than that
  55 2011-02-07 02:03:13 <luke-jr> only 200 MH⁇
  56 2011-02-07 02:03:18 yegg1 has left ()
  57 2011-02-07 02:03:39 <lfm> xelister: maybe those figures are for on card
  58 2011-02-07 02:03:43 <lfm> one card
  59 2011-02-07 02:03:47 <Necr0s> I spent $385 on my 5970, and already had all the other hardware needed.
  60 2011-02-07 02:04:17 <ArtForz> errr... no
  61 2011-02-07 02:04:39 <Necr0s> I might get one for my other comp now, assuming I can get a GPU miner to run on OS X.
  62 2011-02-07 02:06:06 <lfm> necros wouldn't you have to get the card before you can tell if you can get it to work
  63 2011-02-07 02:06:17 <ArtForz> a 1U unit is 6.4Gh, $6000, ~300W
  64 2011-02-07 02:06:28 <luke-jr> sigh, still no block ☹
  65 2011-02-07 02:06:43 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 6400000
  66 2011-02-07 02:06:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 6400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 4 hours, 6 minutes, and 12 seconds
  67 2011-02-07 02:06:59 <Necr0s> lfm, well I could test using the card I already have.
  68 2011-02-07 02:07:16 <lfm> oic
  69 2011-02-07 02:07:26 <luke-jr> just a month to break even at current difficulty/market… :o
  70 2011-02-07 02:07:34 <luke-jr> ArtForz: you're selling these?
  71 2011-02-07 02:07:43 <ArtForz> nope
  72 2011-02-07 02:07:45 <luke-jr> :p
  73 2011-02-07 02:07:48 <ArtForz> well, not yet at least
  74 2011-02-07 02:08:00 <ArtForz> I havent even finished the production board design
  75 2011-02-07 02:08:02 <luke-jr> before they become unprofitable? :P
  76 2011-02-07 02:08:11 <lfm> have you even got it actually running yet?
  77 2011-02-07 02:08:18 <ArtForz> I dont even have the damn chips yet
  78 2011-02-07 02:08:47 <lfm> thot you said youd have em by now. some delay?
  79 2011-02-07 02:09:03 <luke-jr> I'm still totally confused about how the Stream SDK is able to GPU-mine on my Intel chipset that has no OpenCL support
  80 2011-02-07 02:09:06 <Necr0s> This is the FPGA rig?
  81 2011-02-07 02:09:18 <ArtForz> no, I said I hope I got em by now, shipping date is <= feb 11
  82 2011-02-07 02:09:21 <ArtForz> ASIC
  83 2011-02-07 02:10:02 <ArtForz> same setup with most power/cost efficient FPGAs would cost about the same, use about the same power, run at about 1/3 the speed
  84 2011-02-07 02:10:52 <lfm> necros if you're not an expert you might just as well think of em as fpga really
  85 2011-02-07 02:11:41 <ArtForz> the small difference is on a FPGA about 75% of chip area is taken up by the programmable routing network
  86 2011-02-07 02:13:09 <ArtForz> less on modern designs w/ bigger logic/ff blocks, but still about 2/3 of chip lost to programmability
  87 2011-02-07 02:13:16 <lfm> i'm immagining your maskable asic is like a custom mask layer over an array of standard gates basiclly
  88 2011-02-07 02:13:24 <ArtForz> yep, exactly
  89 2011-02-07 02:13:53 <ArtForz> silicon and lower metal layers are fixed
  90 2011-02-07 02:14:07 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  91 2011-02-07 02:14:43 <ArtForz> a standard cell ASIC would still beat it by an order of magnitude on... pretty much everything
  92 2011-02-07 02:15:51 mtgox has joined
  93 2011-02-07 02:15:57 <ArtForz> well, you'd have to go with an older process to make fixed cost at least semi-plausible, so maybe not order of magnitude, still a factor of 3 or 4
  94 2011-02-07 02:16:18 <lfm> so in say 8 months when difficulty is 200000 and btc is 5$ you might start work on a standard cell asic?
  95 2011-02-07 02:16:26 <ArtForz> unlikely
  96 2011-02-07 02:17:05 <ArtForz> upfront cost is in the high 6-digit $
  97 2011-02-07 02:17:51 <ArtForz> at least for any semi-modern process like 130nm
  98 2011-02-07 02:18:03 <lfm> ok, maybe in 5 years after you have enuf put away to pay for it! :-)
  99 2011-02-07 02:18:42 <ArtForz> and I havent really done any physical chip design in ages, last was iirc on a multi-um node
 100 2011-02-07 02:19:30 <jgarzik> TMSC charges $400,000 base cost, just to set up masks and such
 101 2011-02-07 02:19:41 <ArtForz> yeah
 102 2011-02-07 02:20:21 <ArtForz> tools arent exactly free either, and from what I heard still a bitch to use
 103 2011-02-07 02:21:02 <jgarzik> that's for 0.13u mask, minimum order 25 wafers
 104 2011-02-07 02:21:26 <ArtForz> so stuff hasnt gotten chaper, just smaller
 105 2011-02-07 02:22:08 <ArtForz> actually, thats pretty cheap for a full mask set
 106 2011-02-07 02:22:13 <noagendamarket> maybe we need to raise 1.5 million and buy a bulk order of chips to be assembled on cards :)
 107 2011-02-07 02:23:09 * noagendamarket pulls a figure o0ut of his butt
 108 2011-02-07 02:23:31 <lfm> noagendamarket: not to mention first run will probably be buggy\
 109 2011-02-07 02:23:41 <ArtForz> well, do first run on a taxi wafer
 110 2011-02-07 02:24:10 dwdollar has joined
 111 2011-02-07 02:24:33 <ArtForz> they're called multiproject wafers or somesuch nowadays
 112 2011-02-07 02:25:51 <lfm> google: McVitie's Taxi Milk Chocolate Caramel Wafers (9) in Tesco
 113 2011-02-07 02:26:13 <xelister> no one produces the Cypresses no more?
 114 2011-02-07 02:26:22 <xelister> can't Ati restore the line?
 115 2011-02-07 02:26:36 <ArtForz> sure could, but for what?
 116 2011-02-07 02:26:37 <xelister> we could petition them and order like 100 pieces :P
 117 2011-02-07 02:26:41 <lfm> xelister: theyre trying to make 6990 instead
 118 2011-02-07 02:26:46 <ArtForz> yep
 119 2011-02-07 02:26:49 <xelister> we would all (bitcoiners) buik order like 100 chips
 120 2011-02-07 02:26:53 <xelister> *bulk
 121 2011-02-07 02:27:02 <xelister> 50 cards
 122 2011-02-07 02:27:24 <xelister> and if they fix their FUCKING SHIT DRIVERS SHIT these cards actually have many good uses besides mining
 123 2011-02-07 02:27:33 <lfm> sure if you wanna pay $1000/card or more
 124 2011-02-07 02:28:14 <ArtForz> what I heard they're using most of their contingent of TMSC 40nm runs to make caymans
 125 2011-02-07 02:28:20 <xelister> lfm: its not like if they totally dismantled the lines to produce them and throw away all needed blueprints
 126 2011-02-07 02:28:33 <ArtForz> ATI is fabless
 127 2011-02-07 02:28:50 <xelister> so whipe the factory workers to make chips faster
 128 2011-02-07 02:28:52 * xelister *whip*
 129 2011-02-07 02:28:54 <ArtForz> they're getting their shit fabbed by TSMC
 130 2011-02-07 02:29:19 <ArtForz> well, at lest up to 28nm 7xxx, there they want to dual-source from TSMC and GF
 131 2011-02-07 02:29:20 <xelister> taiwan! who would have guessed
 132 2011-02-07 02:29:31 <lfm> anyway theres still cards out there if you wanna pay for em
 133 2011-02-07 02:29:31 <ArtForz> btw, for multiproject wafers, see http://www.mosis.com/
 134 2011-02-07 02:30:03 <xelister> we should hire yakuza to get that factory
 135 2011-02-07 02:30:26 <xelister> if we would smuggle there some pollocks, Im sure they can steal entire factory and we can reassemble it with russian scientists =)
 136 2011-02-07 02:31:02 <xelister> what we need is 100 bottles of vodka, and contact to Yakuza. btw we can ask them to release Satoshi
 137 2011-02-07 02:31:04 <xelister> :}
 138 2011-02-07 02:33:21 <xelister> is temp steys < 80 C, then there is no risk of permanently demaging 5xxx cards with oc?
 139 2011-02-07 02:33:24 <xelister> *if
 140 2011-02-07 02:33:50 <xelister> I was asking last time but still, is there any ready-to-use program I can run on linux to verify if the hashes are correctly generated
 141 2011-02-07 02:33:55 <lfm> my 5770 runs 70C with no fan 100% load
 142 2011-02-07 02:34:28 <lfm> xelister ya bitcoin will do that if you set it up right
 143 2011-02-07 02:34:31 <xelister> I ment can there be other damage to the GPU, then from overheating, during normal but overclocked usage
 144 2011-02-07 02:34:49 <lfm> xelist sure you could overvolt it
 145 2011-02-07 02:34:56 <xelister> yea, but without overvolting
 146 2011-02-07 02:35:08 <xelister> lfm: well, I am not getting any INVALID blocks, but only blocks that look ok (G==0) are checked more in detail
 147 2011-02-07 02:35:10 <newsham> dont oversha it
 148 2011-02-07 02:35:22 <xelister> newsham: ?
 149 2011-02-07 02:35:36 <lfm> your getting into theoretical then. metal whisker formation and drifting traces
 150 2011-02-07 02:35:39 <newsham> too many hashes
 151 2011-02-07 02:37:21 <lfm> um g=0 you mean h=0? if the rate of h=0 is as expected then you should be fine
 152 2011-02-07 02:37:48 <xelister> yea
 153 2011-02-07 02:38:08 <lfm> or join a pool where h=0 is a share that pays
 154 2011-02-07 02:38:47 <newsham> anyone betting on pitts?
 155 2011-02-07 02:40:34 <Cusipzzz> i wish, got a lot of gb action :/
 156 2011-02-07 02:41:03 <newsham> whats your line?
 157 2011-02-07 02:41:20 <Cusipzzz> no i mean people picked gb against me a lt.. -2.5 and 3
 158 2011-02-07 02:41:27 <Cusipzzz> lot
 159 2011-02-07 02:41:58 <Cusipzzz> i wanted pitt to win :(
 160 2011-02-07 02:42:08 <newsham> doesnt look likely
 161 2011-02-07 02:42:12 <Cusipzzz> i know, sigh
 162 2011-02-07 02:42:37 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 163 2011-02-07 02:42:47 lfm has quit (Quit: bbl)
 164 2011-02-07 02:46:25 Necr0s has quit (Quit: Reboot time)
 165 2011-02-07 02:47:13 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 166 2011-02-07 02:53:14 mtgox has joined
 167 2011-02-07 02:58:56 <newsham> still a chance, cus
 168 2011-02-07 02:59:05 <Cusipzzz> ya, for a sec looked good
 169 2011-02-07 02:59:07 <Cusipzzz> not now
 170 2011-02-07 02:59:26 <newsham> :)
 171 2011-02-07 03:00:11 noagendamarket has joined
 172 2011-02-07 03:04:14 <newsham> still possible
 173 2011-02-07 03:04:48 <Cusipzzz> yes
 174 2011-02-07 03:08:39 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 175 2011-02-07 03:10:26 Lube has joined
 176 2011-02-07 03:12:46 jgarzik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 177 2011-02-07 03:13:00 <newsham> sorry cusi
 178 2011-02-07 03:13:51 mtgox has joined
 179 2011-02-07 03:15:28 <Cusipzzz> eh, it's ok..good for publicity to lose and pay :)
 180 2011-02-07 03:16:08 <newsham> were there any bookmakers taking btc for this game?
 181 2011-02-07 03:17:36 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 182 2011-02-07 03:17:57 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 183 2011-02-07 03:21:03 dwdollar2 has joined
 184 2011-02-07 03:21:13 sgornick has joined
 185 2011-02-07 03:21:42 dwdollar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 186 2011-02-07 03:24:48 <Cusipzzz> newsham: i was
 187 2011-02-07 03:24:55 <Cusipzzz> lol, that's what i'm talking about
 188 2011-02-07 03:25:01 <Cusipzzz> most people bet green bay
 189 2011-02-07 03:25:11 <Cusipzzz> btcsportsbet.com
 190 2011-02-07 03:26:18 <newsham> need to pick a line that gets 50% on each side
 191 2011-02-07 03:26:38 <newsham> ie. greenbay by 10
 192 2011-02-07 03:27:31 <Cusipzzz> lol...then i get killed by sharp bettors taking a middle with another book
 193 2011-02-07 03:28:58 <Cusipzzz> like i said, good pub to pay people, have them withdraw, test things out.
 194 2011-02-07 03:29:44 <newsham> what was the line from the pros?
 195 2011-02-07 03:30:29 <xelister> btc > @1.00 USD will actually have a downside: it will be not possible to represent USD prices with enough granuality in btc (min 0.01 btc)?
 196 2011-02-07 03:31:06 <Cusipzzz> newsham: -2.5 all week then -3 today
 197 2011-02-07 03:31:12 <newsham> xelister: clients can adjust to more decimal places if needed
 198 2011-02-07 03:31:29 <newsham> cusi: pitts by 3?  or greenbay by 3?
 199 2011-02-07 03:31:35 <Cusipzzz> gb -3
 200 2011-02-07 03:31:42 <newsham> you can tell i dont follow football :)
 201 2011-02-07 03:32:01 <newsham> whats the line on this?  http://www.surfnewsnetwork.com/index.php?content_id=37&photo_id=24858&photo_typeid=10
 202 2011-02-07 03:32:14 Necr0s has joined
 203 2011-02-07 03:32:52 <Cusipzzz> don't take durfing, sorry.. football, basketball, hockey, soccer, esports (starcraft, etc)
 204 2011-02-07 03:32:56 Lube has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 205 2011-02-07 03:32:57 <Cusipzzz> surfing*
 206 2011-02-07 03:33:09 <Cusipzzz> also boxing/mma
 207 2011-02-07 03:33:46 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 208 2011-02-07 03:35:04 <xelister> newsham: well, transfer < 0.01 btc are not possible
 209 2011-02-07 03:35:22 <andrew12> they are possible, they just have a fee
 210 2011-02-07 03:36:50 <xelister> send 0.007 btc with 0.010 fee - what sense does it make?  then it costs 0.017 btc to send 0.007, so I may as well just pay the man 0.01 ?
 211 2011-02-07 03:38:06 jgarzik has joined
 212 2011-02-07 03:38:42 <newsham> xelister: thats not a btc limitation, thats a limit built into the cline that can be adjusted by recompiling
 213 2011-02-07 03:39:03 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
 214 2011-02-07 03:39:03 jgarzik has joined
 215 2011-02-07 03:39:05 <newsham> as long as the majority of people are usign a clien that supports <0.01btc xfers it wont be a problem
 216 2011-02-07 03:39:13 <newsham> but yah, it will prob need to be adjsted
 217 2011-02-07 03:39:57 <newsham> i wonder if they're already working on that or not
 218 2011-02-07 03:40:13 <newsham> since btc=$ is at the door
 219 2011-02-07 03:40:58 <luke-jr> there's nothing to "work on"
 220 2011-02-07 03:41:01 <luke-jr> it's a trivial modification
 221 2011-02-07 03:41:26 <luke-jr> I agree it should be tweaked probably by the next version or so
 222 2011-02-07 03:41:35 <xelister> but who makes such decissions
 223 2011-02-07 03:41:36 <luke-jr> maybe just change the fee to 10% or something
 224 2011-02-07 03:41:40 <xelister> perhaps there should be like an commitet
 225 2011-02-07 03:41:43 <xelister> like C++ ISO
 226 2011-02-07 03:41:49 <luke-jr> the committee is user adoption
 227 2011-02-07 03:41:51 <xelister> (but perhaps working a bit faster LOL <_<)
 228 2011-02-07 03:41:56 <luke-jr> or rather, miner adoption
 229 2011-02-07 03:41:57 <tcatm> we're currently busy preparing 0.3.20 for release, but yeah, I think going to 4 decimal places (I'd like to avoid 3 because of confusion with . and ,) would be a good idea if price stays at current level or rises even further
 230 2011-02-07 03:42:19 <luke-jr> we could always move it to a Tonal unit ☺
 231 2011-02-07 03:42:57 <newsham> luke: right but it needs to be done before a release :)
 232 2011-02-07 03:42:59 <luke-jr> 1 TBC = 0.00065536, possibly a good stop-gap for a while
 233 2011-02-07 03:43:20 <luke-jr> of course, that might pose a problem for tcatm's reasons
 234 2011-02-07 03:43:28 <luke-jr> BTC would end up using 3 decimal points
 235 2011-02-07 03:44:09 <luke-jr> I like the idea of using 4 decimal points, and a fixed 8% fee for smaller sizes
 236 2011-02-07 03:44:13 <newsham> but then again, the US penny is hardly worth dealing with
 237 2011-02-07 03:44:22 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 238 2011-02-07 03:44:24 <tcatm> Tonal Bitcoin won't make it into the official client for the next few hundred years
 239 2011-02-07 03:44:37 <luke-jr> so to send 0.00001, you pay a 0.000008 fee :p
 240 2011-02-07 03:44:40 <newsham> prob getting rid of 0.01usd makes mroe sense ;-)
 241 2011-02-07 03:44:44 <luke-jr> tcatm: s/official/original
 242 2011-02-07 03:45:02 <luke-jr> tcatm: and that mainly because of the people using Tonal, I am one of the few programmers, and I don't use wx :p
 243 2011-02-07 03:45:29 <luke-jr> actually, using a % doesn't solve the micro-tx problem ☹
 244 2011-02-07 03:45:34 * luke-jr ponders
 245 2011-02-07 03:45:58 <Cusipzzz> tcatm: thank you
 246 2011-02-07 03:46:01 <newsham> pennies suck!
 247 2011-02-07 03:46:07 <newsham> (that should be a tshirt)
 248 2011-02-07 03:46:33 <luke-jr> tbh, I don't think it will REALLY be a problem until we hit $10/BTC
 249 2011-02-07 03:46:56 <newsham> in fairness, micropayments is exactly where something like btc would shine
 250 2011-02-07 03:47:20 <newsham> like every time i say something witty on #bitcoin-dev I should be receiving a flurry of subcent appreciation payments
 251 2011-02-07 03:47:26 <luke-jr> newsham: until we hit $10/BTC, you're talking under 10 cents :p
 252 2011-02-07 03:47:46 <newsham> 10c isnt a micropayment
 253 2011-02-07 03:47:57 <newsham> think "stamps for ip packets"
 254 2011-02-07 03:48:01 <newsham> or something on that order
 255 2011-02-07 03:48:54 <luke-jr> I don't really care so long as we can send single TBC units by the $16/BTC mark (at which point 1 TBC = $0.01)
 256 2011-02-07 03:49:24 <newsham> all i hear is "blah blah blah tonal blah blah blah"
 257 2011-02-07 03:49:56 <luke-jr> probably the correct solution is to have a proper configuration interface for mining
 258 2011-02-07 03:49:57 <tcatm> luke-jr should print tonal dollars :)
 259 2011-02-07 03:50:06 <luke-jr> let the end user specify fees
 260 2011-02-07 03:50:17 <ArtForz> mining alone isnt the problem
 261 2011-02-07 03:50:40 <luke-jr> tcatm: I lack the authority to issue a fiat currency, the backing to issue a backed currency, … :p
 262 2011-02-07 03:50:43 <ArtForz> nowadays transactions not carrying enough fees arent even forwarded by network nodes
 263 2011-02-07 03:51:04 <newsham> no trade on mtgox in nearly 3hrs
 264 2011-02-07 03:51:37 <newsham> what is "enough fees" currently?
 265 2011-02-07 03:52:36 <newsham> thats like saying "I lack the authority to give out poker chips"
 266 2011-02-07 03:52:55 <ArtForz> iirc enough = "it'll make into a block already containing 1000 Byte of coinbase/other TX"
 267 2011-02-07 03:53:25 <ArtForz> so it only affects really big transactions and < 0.01 microTX
 268 2011-02-07 03:54:05 <ArtForz> but this means we have to get a large majority of nodes to upgrade just to *forward* fee-less 0.001 tx
 269 2011-02-07 03:54:14 <ArtForz> well, not really a large majority
 270 2011-02-07 03:54:27 <ArtForz> but a decent chunk
 271 2011-02-07 03:55:27 <tcatm> we could lower fees a few releases before we actually change the RPC and UI to accept more decimals
 272 2011-02-07 03:55:57 <ArtForz> well, accepting more decimals isnt the problem imo
 273 2011-02-07 03:56:06 <newsham> ahh, centrally planned economies ;-)
 274 2011-02-07 03:56:19 <newsham> isnt it ironic?
 275 2011-02-07 03:56:59 <ArtForz> but yeah
 276 2011-02-07 03:57:11 <luke-jr> newsham: fiat currencies are enforced by law
 277 2011-02-07 03:57:51 <luke-jr> tcatm: No.
 278 2011-02-07 03:58:07 <ArtForz> first release a version that accepts/forwards 0.001 tx, later release one that actually creates them
 279 2011-02-07 03:58:19 <luke-jr> ArtForz: without fees*
 280 2011-02-07 03:58:22 <ArtForz> yes
 281 2011-02-07 03:58:25 <ArtForz> at the same time we'll also have to change min fee to 0.001
 282 2011-02-07 03:58:37 <ArtForz> well, not *have to*, but it'd be weird otherwise
 283 2011-02-07 03:58:37 <luke-jr> 0.0001 for reasons tcatm mentioned
 284 2011-02-07 03:58:42 <newsham> dont forget to project ahead to $10/btc.
 285 2011-02-07 03:58:58 <newsham> which could hapen as early as summer.
 286 2011-02-07 03:59:07 <luke-jr> 1,001 looks like 1.001 to Europeans
 287 2011-02-07 03:59:10 <newsham> i guess 2 decimal digits would cover that
 288 2011-02-07 03:59:11 <luke-jr> >.>
 289 2011-02-07 03:59:36 <newsham> err 2 more decimal digits
 290 2011-02-07 04:00:21 <ArtForz> well, I'd just drop rounding
 291 2011-02-07 04:00:44 <ArtForz> 1.00100000 doesnt confuse anyone
 292 2011-02-07 04:01:56 <luke-jr> 1.001 isn't rounding :p
 293 2011-02-07 04:01:57 <tcatm> we could drop rounding once the RPC sendfrom can handle fees
 294 2011-02-07 04:02:13 <luke-jr> tcatm: it already does
 295 2011-02-07 04:02:20 <luke-jr> just not "right"
 296 2011-02-07 04:02:41 <luke-jr> if it couldn't handle fees, people would have issues with large tx
 297 2011-02-07 04:03:03 <luke-jr> also, consensus seems to be on integer base units (as it should be)
 298 2011-02-07 04:03:23 <newsham> one thing that bothers me (only slightly) is that you ship bitcoin participants with policies.
 299 2011-02-07 04:03:25 <tcatm> integer base units can wait
 300 2011-02-07 04:03:28 <newsham> rather than let participants choose their own policies
 301 2011-02-07 04:03:31 <luke-jr> tcatm: no
 302 2011-02-07 04:03:36 <luke-jr> tcatm: they are needed today.
 303 2011-02-07 04:03:54 <newsham> why not let participants pick the fees and tx sizes they're willing to deal with?
 304 2011-02-07 04:03:56 <luke-jr> newsham: [22:43:48] <luke-jr> probably the correct solution is to have a proper configuration interface for mining[22:43:58] <luke-jr> let the end user specify fees
 305 2011-02-07 04:04:01 <ArtForz> newsham: so you want every node to forward or not forward tx based on arbitrary criteria?
 306 2011-02-07 04:04:12 <newsham> artforz: essentially, yes.
 307 2011-02-07 04:04:20 <luke-jr> ArtForz: you can't stop them.
 308 2011-02-07 04:04:26 <luke-jr> I'd make it an "Advanced" option page
 309 2011-02-07 04:04:26 <newsham> mind you i havent though tthis through very deeply :)
 310 2011-02-07 04:04:29 <luke-jr> with reasonable defaults
 311 2011-02-07 04:04:29 <newsham> but thats my general hunch
 312 2011-02-07 04:04:41 <tcatm> could cause harm to the network. some users like to tweak options without knowing what they do.
 313 2011-02-07 04:05:03 <newsham> at the very least it seems to fit better with the spirit of bitcoin (decentralized currency without central bank)
 314 2011-02-07 04:05:10 <ArtForz> well, they can already change the rules, just edit main.h and recompile
 315 2011-02-07 04:05:24 <newsham> but as lukejr points out, clients can aalready modify the policy.. its just currently a lot of work
 316 2011-02-07 04:05:29 <newsham> right
 317 2011-02-07 04:05:53 <newsham> so why not stop pretending, put it in an easily changed config file and publish it
 318 2011-02-07 04:05:56 <newsham> and let the market vote?
 319 2011-02-07 04:06:02 <newsham> prob most people will accept the stock policy
 320 2011-02-07 04:06:15 <newsham> so there'lls till be lots of power in the hands of the bitcoin standard client team
 321 2011-02-07 04:06:21 <newsham> at least as long as there is a single client
 322 2011-02-07 04:06:39 <newsham> *shrug*  just random not fully baked thoughts :)
 323 2011-02-07 04:09:42 <ArtForz> random thought, shouldnt we have some means in the protocol for nodes to announce their fee schedule?
 324 2011-02-07 04:11:25 <tcatm> interesting idea. But what should the client show as TX fee? Will it depend on what nodes it is connected to?
 325 2011-02-07 04:11:26 <dirtyfilthy> there won't be just a single client for long though.
 326 2011-02-07 04:11:41 <dirtyfilthy> i've been wondering what will happen when we have slightly different implementations
 327 2011-02-07 04:12:02 <tcatm> worst case: chain split
 328 2011-02-07 04:12:20 <ArtForz> as long as they follow the same rules for what is a valid block/tx... nothing really
 329 2011-02-07 04:13:15 <dirtyfilthy> supposing they follow rules that are subtly different through programming error
 330 2011-02-07 04:13:25 <ArtForz> worst case, chain split
 331 2011-02-07 04:13:37 <ArtForz> see 0.3.8 vs. 0.3.10
 332 2011-02-07 04:14:04 <tcatm> I also doubt we'll see a full replacement for the original client soon
 333 2011-02-07 04:15:26 <dirtyfilthy> how come?
 334 2011-02-07 04:16:17 <jgarzik> too many mechanics, like proper double-spend detection or chain split handling, are built into the C++ implementation.  it's an ugly implementation, in terms of code beauty, but it's proven.
 335 2011-02-07 04:16:46 <jgarzik> I think we'll see some python-based daemon implementations eventually
 336 2011-02-07 04:16:53 <midnightmagic_> i find the code to be very beautiful.
 337 2011-02-07 04:17:13 <luke-jr> I'm hopeful for QBitCoin
 338 2011-02-07 04:17:22 <luke-jr> just wish MT`AwAy would develop it openly
 339 2011-02-07 04:17:31 <jgarzik> the threading is completely nutters
 340 2011-02-07 04:17:34 <midnightmagic_> extremely simple, and elegant. i have fewer problems grokking through bitcoin source than the typical non-core utility program on Linux.
 341 2011-02-07 04:18:28 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 342 2011-02-07 04:18:59 <luke-jr> and so long as the original client developers continue to oppress/ignore Tonal, I have no interest in using it beyond necessity
 343 2011-02-07 04:19:29 da2ce7 has joined
 344 2011-02-07 04:19:29 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
 345 2011-02-07 04:19:29 da2ce7 has joined
 346 2011-02-07 04:19:29 dissipate_ has joined
 347 2011-02-07 04:19:49 <midnightmagic_> "oppress"?
 348 2011-02-07 04:19:50 <dissipate_> hello, can someone tell me in a nutshell how bitcoin could scale to millions or billions of nodes?
 349 2011-02-07 04:20:07 <midnightmagic_> can you find a single other person who wants to adopt tonal?
 350 2011-02-07 04:20:07 <dirtyfilthy> hmmmm, dealing with chain splits is the next thing on my agenda
 351 2011-02-07 04:20:25 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: some people have actively tried to oppose Tonal usage of bitcoin
 352 2011-02-07 04:20:35 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: certainly, there is even a Facebook group
 353 2011-02-07 04:20:39 <dirtyfilthy> i'm not gonna worry about detecting double spending, indeed i can't with just the headers for the initial block d/l
 354 2011-02-07 04:20:46 <midnightmagic_> from what I can see, you have a patchset which is specific just to you, and they are denying your patches because the use is single-user-specific. how is that oppression?
 355 2011-02-07 04:20:46 <tcatm> dissipate_: easy as long as it doesn't need to scale over night and we have some time tweaking it to scale well
 356 2011-02-07 04:20:49 <dissipate_> luke-jr, what is tonal?
 357 2011-02-07 04:21:10 <midnightmagic_> wait, don't answer that, it was a rhetorical question..
 358 2011-02-07 04:21:15 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: my patches aren't even Tonal-specific, they just fix design flaws that interfere with Tonal
 359 2011-02-07 04:21:23 <afed> yeah when is this whole thing going to collapse, i want to sell my bitcoins at the highest possible price
 360 2011-02-07 04:21:24 <luke-jr> dissipate_: alternative to decimal
 361 2011-02-07 04:21:24 <dissipate_> tcatm, producing new blocks would be a major problem once you start scaling big time, IMO
 362 2011-02-07 04:21:41 <ArtForz> why?
 363 2011-02-07 04:21:46 <dissipate_> luke-jr, link as to how it works? is it arbitrary big decimal precision?
 364 2011-02-07 04:21:48 <ArtForz> move from flat broadcast p2p to a p2p network of hubs with normal clients and miners as leaves
 365 2011-02-07 04:22:19 <tcatm> we already have miners as leaves with getwork (even though it's ugly)
 366 2011-02-07 04:22:19 <luke-jr> dissipate_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_System has a summary; http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/tonal-system/10991090 has a (free) PDF of the original book
 367 2011-02-07 04:22:24 <dirtyfilthy> for a thin client, when the longest chain changes, i just need to rebroadcast any of my transactions that were in blocks that are no longer in longest chain?
 368 2011-02-07 04:22:37 <ArtForz> tcatm: yup
 369 2011-02-07 04:22:48 <luke-jr> dissipate_: BitCoin-specific Tonal specifications are on the wiki
 370 2011-02-07 04:23:26 <dissipate_> ArtForz, here is the problem. if the usage of BTC takes off, the number of transactions will increase, and also people will probably demand much faster transaction verification times than the current ones. the faster the blocks are produced, the more difficult it is to coordinate block production among the miners.
 371 2011-02-07 04:23:37 <dissipate_> luke-jr, thanks
 372 2011-02-07 04:23:47 <jgarzik> Tonal resides in the twin categories of "silly" and "has a userbase of one"
 373 2011-02-07 04:23:50 <luke-jr> dissipate_: it is basically impossible to make transactions any faster
 374 2011-02-07 04:23:58 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 375 2011-02-07 04:23:58 <luke-jr> jgarzik: FUD
 376 2011-02-07 04:24:09 <dissipate_> luke-jr, why is that?
 377 2011-02-07 04:24:12 <midnightmagic_> the only way to make transactions faster is to use bitcoins as a backing for another instantaneous-transfer mechanism.
 378 2011-02-07 04:24:26 <luke-jr> dissipate_: the entire p2p network is designed to target 10 minutes per block
 379 2011-02-07 04:24:55 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: read the snack machine thread?
 380 2011-02-07 04:25:06 <tcatm> and faster confirmations => lower difficulty => need to wait for more confirmations => nothing changes
 381 2011-02-07 04:25:07 <luke-jr> jgarzik: Tonal is rationally the better choice; closed-minded people just refuse to use it because they're against learning
 382 2011-02-07 04:25:08 <midnightmagic_> i did, when i first joined these channels.
 383 2011-02-07 04:25:14 <midnightmagic_> i've forgotten most of it by now.
 384 2011-02-07 04:25:16 <dissipate_> tonal system has 'tonbong'? lmao :D
 385 2011-02-07 04:25:40 <luke-jr> dissipate_: Tonal came before the modern slang :/
 386 2011-02-07 04:25:43 <ArtForz> much less than that and you get too many chain forks, much more than that and blocks take ages
 387 2011-02-07 04:25:47 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: i'm pretty sure there's more to their refusal than "being against learning"
 388 2011-02-07 04:26:01 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: such as?
 389 2011-02-07 04:26:01 <dissipate_> tcatm, that is a pretty bad problem then
 390 2011-02-07 04:26:07 <ArtForz> why?
 391 2011-02-07 04:26:17 <hacim> luke-jr: i have no idea what it even is, except for something that you keep talking about
 392 2011-02-07 04:26:18 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: it's basically the same problem as people who refuse to learn Dvorak because they're happy with Qwerty
 393 2011-02-07 04:26:31 <luke-jr> hacim: ?
 394 2011-02-07 04:26:39 <hacim> luke-jr: tonal
 395 2011-02-07 04:26:42 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: it's not good practice to put single-user-specific code into something as crucial as a bitcoin node, on which, out there, someone with 400,000 bitcoins depends.
 396 2011-02-07 04:26:43 <dissipate_> jgarzik, link to snack machine thread?
 397 2011-02-07 04:26:52 <luke-jr> hacim: [23:16:11] <luke-jr> dissipate_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonal_System has a summary; http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/tonal-system/10991090 has a (free) PDF of the original book
 398 2011-02-07 04:27:06 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: there is *nothing* Tonal-specific about the changes I made.
 399 2011-02-07 04:27:09 <tcatm> I think it's totally fine to transfer serious amounts of money within one hour across the internet securely. There's nothing else that could do that.
 400 2011-02-07 04:27:14 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: I am also not the only person using Tonal
 401 2011-02-07 04:27:16 <tcatm> Sucks for micro TX, though :P
 402 2011-02-07 04:27:27 <ArtForz> yep
 403 2011-02-07 04:27:35 <dissipate_> tcatm, one hour??
 404 2011-02-07 04:27:45 <tcatm> 6 confirmations
 405 2011-02-07 04:27:50 <dissipate_> tcatm, another system called loom.cc is pretty much instantaneous for any amount.
 406 2011-02-07 04:27:52 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: though I may be the last Tonal user to use BitCoin, if people oppose it too much
 407 2011-02-07 04:28:04 <jgarzik> dissipate_: snack machine thread (fast confirmations): http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=423.0;all
 408 2011-02-07 04:28:15 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: then you and that other person run your fork. why would you expect other people to promote, debug, qa, and release your work when they don't want to?
 409 2011-02-07 04:28:17 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: Tonal support is an incentive for us to use BitCoin; otherwise, the local fiat currencies work just as well
 410 2011-02-07 04:28:20 <dissipate_> guys i'm sorry but these confirmation times are going to be a serious problem.
 411 2011-02-07 04:28:23 <tcatm> dissipate_: loom.cc has a central server IIRC
 412 2011-02-07 04:28:35 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: again, my changes are not Tonal specific. they fix bugs that need fixing.
 413 2011-02-07 04:28:40 <dissipate_> tcatm, true, but it is instantaneous
 414 2011-02-07 04:28:46 <hacim> so... how should I use tonal
 415 2011-02-07 04:28:53 <midnightmagic_> but you are wrapping your fixes into tonal acceptance, and that is a sort of blackmail.
 416 2011-02-07 04:28:57 <tcatm> add a central server to bitcoin (like mybitcoin) and you can do the same
 417 2011-02-07 04:29:04 <ArtForz> tcatm: agreed
 418 2011-02-07 04:29:08 <jgarzik> I think fast confirmations are possible, with a decent, distributed set of links into the P2P network.
 419 2011-02-07 04:29:33 <ArtForz> well, not faster than block time really
 420 2011-02-07 04:29:36 <luke-jr> hacim: if you seriously want to learn it, I'd be glad to talk further on that in #Tonal ; however, don't feel like you have to. My goal here is not to destroy Decimal BitCoin, merely to allow us to reasonably use BitCoin with Tonal also.
 421 2011-02-07 04:29:54 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: huh?
 422 2011-02-07 04:29:57 <tcatm> add some secure communication protocol between services like mybitcoin, mtgox and bitcoin central and you can have instant confirmations between a lot of users
 423 2011-02-07 04:30:18 <hacim> luke-jr: i'm not sure why I'd want to learn it yet
 424 2011-02-07 04:30:21 <midnightmagic_> can your patches be separated into "stuff which supports tonal" and "stuff which fixes problems in the main codebase"?
 425 2011-02-07 04:30:31 <ArtForz> hmmm, and hope none of them starts cheating
 426 2011-02-07 04:30:33 <luke-jr> hacim: basically, it's easier to work with once you know it
 427 2011-02-07 04:30:44 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: there is *nothing* Tonal specific at all right now
 428 2011-02-07 04:30:53 <tcatm> if you run your own bitcoin client it'll be slower, just like if you'd need to go to the ATM to get real money before you can spend it
 429 2011-02-07 04:31:17 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: in *any* of my patches
 430 2011-02-07 04:31:17 <midnightmagic_> if that is so, and your patches truly fix things, then I would oppose the opposition to the adoption of your patches.
 431 2011-02-07 04:31:53 <dissipate_> can someone explain the mechanism of paying for a faster transaction verification time
 432 2011-02-07 04:31:56 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: the majority seem to still support the fixes
 433 2011-02-07 04:32:12 <newsham> re fee schedule: if peers and mienrs advertised their fee schedule couldnt you at least show a rough chart of fee per likely delay?
 434 2011-02-07 04:32:15 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: although my specific patches probably need rewriting, in consideration of some critique made on *how* they're implemented
 435 2011-02-07 04:32:17 <dissipate_> if 6 blocks per hour is the fastest it can go, what is the point of paying for something faster??
 436 2011-02-07 04:32:33 <ArtForz> simple, those transactions dont ever touch the block chain
 437 2011-02-07 04:32:34 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: in-person shopping.
 438 2011-02-07 04:32:50 <newsham> ie: 75% of nodes will accept tx for 2%, 85% will accept for 1.8%, ...
 439 2011-02-07 04:32:51 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: tbh, nobody wants to wait 10 minutes to checkout :p
 440 2011-02-07 04:33:35 <dissipate_> ArtForz, huh??
 441 2011-02-07 04:33:46 <dissipate_> midnightmagic, what's 'in-person' shopping?
 442 2011-02-07 04:33:50 <ArtForz> the tx is valid before it gets into the chain
 443 2011-02-07 04:34:01 <newsham> maybe peers could keep some recent hsitory of tx fee vs. delay?
 444 2011-02-07 04:34:07 <newsham> that would provide real measurements vs estimates
 445 2011-02-07 04:34:11 <newsham> (instead of estimates i mean)
 446 2011-02-07 04:34:13 <dissipate_> ArtForz, i don't get it. have a link to the documentation?
 447 2011-02-07 04:34:17 <andrew12> woo, 29 days of uptime on here
 448 2011-02-07 04:34:24 <ArtForz> what documentation?
 449 2011-02-07 04:34:30 <newsham> ie "95% of TXs with a fee >= 1% were accepted in <20min)
 450 2011-02-07 04:34:34 <dissipate_> ArtForz, to how the instantaneous verification works
 451 2011-02-07 04:34:53 <newsham> with time decaying averages
 452 2011-02-07 04:35:04 <ArtForz> by having merchants establish trust with "bitcoin banks"
 453 2011-02-07 04:35:40 <dissipate_> oh snap, now we are back to a centralized system. :O
 454 2011-02-07 04:35:45 <newsham> there are already sites that will let you clear btc denominated transactions faster
 455 2011-02-07 04:35:48 <newsham> like mtgox
 456 2011-02-07 04:35:51 <ArtForz> actually not centralized
 457 2011-02-07 04:35:56 <newsham> it doesnt have to be centralized
 458 2011-02-07 04:36:04 <newsham> but it does have advantages ;-)
 459 2011-02-07 04:36:13 <dissipate_> ArtForz, how so?
 460 2011-02-07 04:36:18 <ArtForz> there can easily be many such "banks" ala mybitcoin
 461 2011-02-07 04:36:20 <newsham> also stop fooling yourself, artforz == central authority onbitcoin ;-)
 462 2011-02-07 04:36:21 <dissipate_> ArtForz, a bank is a 'central' institution
 463 2011-02-07 04:36:36 <newsham> by sheer cpu power
 464 2011-02-07 04:36:39 <ArtForz> so if you have 10 competing private banks, which one is the central one?
 465 2011-02-07 04:36:46 <echelon> bitcoincharts is being sloow
 466 2011-02-07 04:37:38 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: in-person shopping is someone wandering into a store and not wanting to wait for 10 minutes to walk away with their merchandise..
 467 2011-02-07 04:37:53 <luke-jr> who cares if there's a central bank or not? :P
 468 2011-02-07 04:38:03 <newsham> artforz: there are degrees of centralization
 469 2011-02-07 04:38:15 <dissipate_> luke-jr, i do, because the feds could shut it down
 470 2011-02-07 04:38:51 <newsham> midnight: and in person stores have a solution to this problem.. they trust visa to extend credit and setle transactions
 471 2011-02-07 04:39:06 <newsham> so that customers without cash in pocket can still buy at your store
 472 2011-02-07 04:39:13 <ArtForz> yep
 473 2011-02-07 04:39:23 <ArtForz> merchants CAN accept 0/unconf payments just fine
 474 2011-02-07 04:39:37 <dissipate_> ArtForz, what happens when the feds shut down the banks?
 475 2011-02-07 04:39:46 <afed> what does it look like if a payment isn't confirmed
 476 2011-02-07 04:39:54 <dissipate_> ArtForz, not a snack machine. :D
 477 2011-02-07 04:39:59 <ArtForz> ?
 478 2011-02-07 04:40:00 <afed> can a transaction go from 0/unconf to 0/never going to be confirmed
 479 2011-02-07 04:40:02 <afed> 0/repudiated
 480 2011-02-07 04:40:04 <afed> etc
 481 2011-02-07 04:40:19 <luke-jr> yes
 482 2011-02-07 04:40:30 <luke-jr> it can also go from 1/whatever to 0/never
 483 2011-02-07 04:40:34 <ArtForz> it just goes from 0/unconf to "poof, gone"
 484 2011-02-07 04:40:37 <midnightmagic_> ArtForz: wouldn't they have to worry that someone nearby has a wallet clone of their smartcard and is spending the same money?
 485 2011-02-07 04:40:41 <ArtForz> yes
 486 2011-02-07 04:40:47 <newsham> credit risk
 487 2011-02-07 04:40:48 <dissipate_> ArtForz, i send the snack machine some bogus BTC and it gives me the snack before verifying
 488 2011-02-07 04:40:55 <newsham> you charge a premium that covers your credit risk
 489 2011-02-07 04:41:02 <afed> so if it goes poof, gone, then the bitcoins are never spent
 490 2011-02-07 04:41:06 <afed> you just redo the transaction right?
 491 2011-02-07 04:41:10 <newsham> and if that premium gets too high, you give up and stop taking purchases on credit
 492 2011-02-07 04:41:11 <ArtForz> err... no
 493 2011-02-07 04:41:21 <midnightmagic_> i guess technically *one* of the merchants will get paid..
 494 2011-02-07 04:41:35 <ArtForz> well, *someone* will get paid
 495 2011-02-07 04:41:53 <midnightmagic_> yea, course, good point.
 496 2011-02-07 04:41:59 <ArtForz> you can't just unsped a coin, you have to send it elsewhere (usually to yourself instead of to the merchant)
 497 2011-02-07 04:41:59 <dissipate_> all of these schemes seem way too complicated
 498 2011-02-07 04:42:07 <ArtForz> ?
 499 2011-02-07 04:42:37 noagendamarket has joined
 500 2011-02-07 04:42:50 <midnightmagic_> what we need is a smartcard which has a little lcd display on it.
 501 2011-02-07 04:43:00 <ArtForz> yet merchants accept credit cards...
 502 2011-02-07 04:43:02 <dissipate_> look, i am a merchant i want to accept BTC and i want instant verification, but i don't want to go through some pool account at a BTC 'bank'
 503 2011-02-07 04:43:11 <newsham> dissipate: you're aware that when you buy something at the store with your visa card you can dispute the transaction and "unbuy" it, right?
 504 2011-02-07 04:43:18 <ArtForz> yep
 505 2011-02-07 04:43:23 <newsham> in which case the merchant eats the transaction ("chargeback")
 506 2011-02-07 04:43:35 <luke-jr> newsham: or proves you authorized it
 507 2011-02-07 04:43:38 <dissipate_> newsham, i am aware of that, but you understand that we are trying to build something superior to a credit card, right??
 508 2011-02-07 04:43:42 <luke-jr> then YOU get hit with a fee IIRC
 509 2011-02-07 04:43:44 <newsham> this stuff isnt unique to bitcoin.  it hapens in the real world
 510 2011-02-07 04:43:51 <newsham> and there is a history of real world solutions
 511 2011-02-07 04:43:56 <ArtForz> merchants generally just eat that risk and raise prices to compensate
 512 2011-02-07 04:44:17 <midnightmagic_> with a chargeback, VISA fraud division kicks in and starts tracking criminals down.
 513 2011-02-07 04:44:29 <dissipate_> newsham, then why would a merchant choose BTC over credit cards? they have a system in place that 'works' and it would cost them to implement a new system
 514 2011-02-07 04:44:41 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: freedom!
 515 2011-02-07 04:45:00 <luke-jr> dissipate_: some of the people here assume everyone is in their little niche ;)
 516 2011-02-07 04:45:02 <ArtForz> no fees, lower risk
 517 2011-02-07 04:45:03 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, sorry, merchants don't care about freedom.
 518 2011-02-07 04:45:32 <xelister> what the fuck
 519 2011-02-07 04:45:33 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Mobility_Radeon_HD_5xxx_Series
 520 2011-02-07 04:45:34 <newsham> you have a choice, you can take coins and wait for the tx to be confirmed, or you can take it on credit and eat the cost of fraud, or use a central transaction clearninghouse and let them hide the transaction latency for you
 521 2011-02-07 04:45:37 <xelister> why 5970 is missing
 522 2011-02-07 04:45:50 <xelister> no ... wait.  Shit Im blind.  disregard that.
 523 2011-02-07 04:45:50 <ArtForz> mobility 5970 ?
 524 2011-02-07 04:45:51 <tcatm> Who is polling markets.json every second from 5 different IPs?!
 525 2011-02-07 04:46:03 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, some merchants might, the vast majority don't. and frankly all they want to do is keep their head down and comply with all state regulations so they can be left alone to make a buck.
 526 2011-02-07 04:46:03 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: you're 100% wrong there. i was a retail store merchant for ..  oh maybe 10 years and I cared very much whenever VISA autocratically changed their acceptance procedures, and mastercard were being douchebags..
 527 2011-02-07 04:46:04 <newsham> when you take things on credit, youc an use history information to limit risk (ie. "credit score")
 528 2011-02-07 04:46:08 <newsham> if you can get some meaningful credit history
 529 2011-02-07 04:46:30 <afed> who wants to establish a bitcoin credit reporting bureau
 530 2011-02-07 04:46:32 <newsham> i leave it to you to figure out why a merchant might want to or not want to use btc :)
 531 2011-02-07 04:46:47 <newsham> afed: one already exists (bitcoin-otc reputation)
 532 2011-02-07 04:46:50 <luke-jr> afed: credit reporting BS is evil
 533 2011-02-07 04:46:59 <afed> newsham: we need 3
 534 2011-02-07 04:47:05 <newsham> probably ;-)
 535 2011-02-07 04:47:19 <dissipate_> afed, hahaha, a credit bureau. you know that defeats the entire purpose of bitcoin, right?
 536 2011-02-07 04:47:19 <midnightmagic_> or when american express refused to pay me until the customer paid their bill
 537 2011-02-07 04:47:28 <afed> it's a redundancy system, if one is wrong it'll be out of whack with the other two
 538 2011-02-07 04:47:32 <afed> why we have three IRL
 539 2011-02-07 04:47:37 <newsham> i think pragmatically,  shopping cart transaction clearing banks will be popular if bitcoin is used for buying stuff on the web.
 540 2011-02-07 04:47:41 <midnightmagic_> that was really infuriating..
 541 2011-02-07 04:47:41 <luke-jr> dissipate_: "purpose" is subjective
 542 2011-02-07 04:47:42 <newsham> ie. mtgox or other clearninghouse
 543 2011-02-07 04:47:49 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_ so you were a merchant for 10 years, now what are you?
 544 2011-02-07 04:48:20 <newsham> you can talk idealism and dream up the perfect solution all you want.
 545 2011-02-07 04:48:28 <newsham> if it doesnt work for real world merchants, they wont use it
 546 2011-02-07 04:48:42 <dissipate_> newsham, big problem. if BTC caught on those clearinghouses would be shut down by the feds. ever heard of 1mdc?
 547 2011-02-07 04:48:47 <newsham> and they might use the same "real world" mechanisms you complain so much about instead
 548 2011-02-07 04:49:14 <newsham> dissipate: btc getting shut down by the fed is a very real risk :)
 549 2011-02-07 04:49:16 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: well for the last ten years I was glorified technical support. i'm not sure what I am specifically, right now. i don't even know what my official job title is now..
 550 2011-02-07 04:49:17 <newsham> egold ftw
 551 2011-02-07 04:49:27 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, are you planning on bringing bitcoin to point of sale?
 552 2011-02-07 04:49:44 <midnightmagic_> it didn't occur to me to ask when i accepted the new position actually..  ha ha hilarious.
 553 2011-02-07 04:49:45 <newsham> but thats a problem "if btc catches on".  you are going to probably hvae to embrace some of these flawes mechanisms if you hope it to catch on in the first place
 554 2011-02-07 04:50:03 <newsham> the fed does not take kindly to people starting up their own currency
 555 2011-02-07 04:50:07 <midnightmagic_> i guess "Performance Lab Engineer"
 556 2011-02-07 04:50:15 <newsham> they sorta have a monopoly on that kinda thing in the usa :)
 557 2011-02-07 04:50:52 <dissipate_> newsham, so there in lies the problem. in order for bitcoin to catch on it needs centralized clearing houses. but if it i does catch on, those clearing houses will be shut down, taking people's BTC with them.
 558 2011-02-07 04:51:02 <newsham> dissipate: *nod*
 559 2011-02-07 04:51:26 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: I would absolutely if 1) there was a clean way of doing it, and 2) enough demand to make first-mover advantage profitable enough.
 560 2011-02-07 04:51:31 <newsham> if its any comfort, it sems that people in china like to use video game currency for real world transactions despite the cntral govts objections :)
 561 2011-02-07 04:51:58 <luke-jr> newsham: the US has actually shut down alternate currencies
 562 2011-02-07 04:52:07 <dissipate_> newsham, it seems to me the solution is to increase the rate of block production
 563 2011-02-07 04:52:10 <newsham> *nod*.. I did mention eGold not a few minutes ago
 564 2011-02-07 04:52:12 <luke-jr> including taking lots of privately owned gold
 565 2011-02-07 04:52:31 <dissipate_> luke-jr, e-gold and 1mdc got shut down
 566 2011-02-07 04:52:31 <luke-jr> dissipate_: why do yuo assume that's possible?
 567 2011-02-07 04:52:38 <luke-jr> and Liberty Dollar
 568 2011-02-07 04:52:43 <dissipate_> but e-gold was really really dumb. they set up shop in Florida.
 569 2011-02-07 04:52:52 <dissipate_> luke-jr, liberty dollar was dumb too
 570 2011-02-07 04:52:58 <dissipate_> luke-jr, they set up in the U.S.
 571 2011-02-07 04:53:15 <x6763> what's the purpose of the clearing house? (i missed much of this conversation)
 572 2011-02-07 04:53:18 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr: it's certainly *possible*, you change like one line in the source and get everyone to upgrade clients
 573 2011-02-07 04:53:24 <dissipate_> luke-jr, i'm not assuming it is possible. but i think the possibility must be explored.
 574 2011-02-07 04:53:52 <dissipate_> x6763, to overcome the problem of potentially slow transaction verifications
 575 2011-02-07 04:54:06 <midnightmagic_> x6763: instantaneous transactions. dissipate_ seems to think btc is doomed because instant transactions aren't possible.
 576 2011-02-07 04:54:30 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, not doomed at all, just highly desirable
 577 2011-02-07 04:54:41 <x6763> ah, ok...so something that allows instant transfers like mtgox, but people are worried they'll get shut down?
 578 2011-02-07 04:54:45 <midnightmagic_> sorry if i mischaracterised your objection. :)
 579 2011-02-07 04:54:53 <dissipate_> i mean bitcoin is not doomed because of the slow transaction verifications, but they are highly desirable
 580 2011-02-07 04:54:53 <midnightmagic_> or start cheating.
 581 2011-02-07 04:54:58 <newsham> ACH transactions arent instant either..
 582 2011-02-07 04:55:03 <newsham> 2 days to clear?
 583 2011-02-07 04:55:05 <newsham> still very useful
 584 2011-02-07 04:55:08 <midnightmagic_> and basically be contrary to the bticoni philosophy
 585 2011-02-07 04:55:25 <dissipate_> x6763, yep
 586 2011-02-07 04:55:28 <newsham> also instant transactions are possible, its just that the trust doesnt come instantly ;-)
 587 2011-02-07 04:55:35 <newsham> transaction verification isnt instant ;-)
 588 2011-02-07 04:55:40 <dissipate_> x6763, if mt. gox got big enough they would be shut down by some government, i guarantee it.
 589 2011-02-07 04:55:43 <dirtyfilthy> x6763: sup dude, how's the client going?
 590 2011-02-07 04:55:54 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: what "bitcoin philosophy" is that?
 591 2011-02-07 04:56:31 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: decentralised currency without a centralised must-trust authority.
 592 2011-02-07 04:56:33 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: you're not going to get a majority of the world to adopt any "philosophy"; the technology had better be prepared to appeal to many different existing philosophies if it is to succeed
 593 2011-02-07 04:56:53 <newsham> also perhaps bitcoin fails but gives good lessons for the next crypto currency
 594 2011-02-07 04:56:53 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: except if the philosophy is "more freedom".
 595 2011-02-07 04:56:56 <dissipate_> luke-jr, agreed!
 596 2011-02-07 04:56:58 <newsham> wouldnt be the worst outcome in the world
 597 2011-02-07 04:57:07 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: then only the niche of freedom-worshippers care
 598 2011-02-07 04:57:25 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: everyone will choose more freedom, all else being equal.
 599 2011-02-07 04:57:41 <dissipate_> luke-jr, vast majority of people don't care about freedom, but they will defect from centralized governments when the cost goes down.
 600 2011-02-07 04:57:42 <x6763> dirtyfilthy: going good...still working on the private key thing with the little bits of time i have (creating a "drop-in" replacement sure does create a lot of extra work)...i managed to build some JCEECPrivateKey objects with the private keys from the wallet, though, but now I'm just working on making sure i get the serialization right
 601 2011-02-07 04:57:42 <midnightmagic_> .. they.. you know..  found countries on the principle..
 602 2011-02-07 04:57:46 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: you say this because you adhere to that philosophy
 603 2011-02-07 04:57:52 al_ is now known as al_x
 604 2011-02-07 04:57:56 satamusic has joined
 605 2011-02-07 04:58:10 <luke-jr> dissipate_: exactly. Bitcoin needs to appeal to other philosophical grounds to "win"
 606 2011-02-07 04:58:11 al_x is now known as hss
 607 2011-02-07 04:58:21 hss is now known as bbc
 608 2011-02-07 04:58:22 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: I say this because entire continents of populations cherish that particular philosophy.
 609 2011-02-07 04:58:24 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: some people have.
 610 2011-02-07 04:58:34 bbc is now known as torbank
 611 2011-02-07 04:58:39 <dissipate_> luke-jr, not really. i don't think it needs to appeal to any philosophy. it just needs to appeal to people's desire for more personal wealth.
 612 2011-02-07 04:58:40 <luke-jr> still a minority
 613 2011-02-07 04:58:47 <newsham> also perhaps fed kills btcin america but people keep using it elsewhere
 614 2011-02-07 04:58:51 <newsham> also not a horrible outcome
 615 2011-02-07 04:59:09 <dissipate_> luke-jr, what is a minority?
 616 2011-02-07 04:59:17 <midnightmagic_> not quite the minority of 1 you implied. :)
 617 2011-02-07 04:59:20 <luke-jr> dissipate_: people who care about freedom
 618 2011-02-07 04:59:36 <dissipate_> luke-jr, that's exactly what i said.
 619 2011-02-07 04:59:47 <dirtyfilthy> x6763: yeah i'm not going to bother with importing keys, people just send money to the wallet from their original client
 620 2011-02-07 05:00:00 <dissipate_> luke-jr, people who desire more personal wealth are not necessarily people who consciously desire freedom. two different things.
 621 2011-02-07 05:00:26 <luke-jr> dissipate_: two different philosophies Bitcoin might (or might not) appeal with
 622 2011-02-07 05:00:41 <luke-jr> right now, Bitcoin doesn't have a strong appeal to greed afaik
 623 2011-02-07 05:01:09 <newsham> lukejr: except for the huge $/btc bubble? :)
 624 2011-02-07 05:01:12 <dissipate_> luke-jr, right now it doesn't but it has the potential to appeal to 'greed' (or whatever you call it) big time.
 625 2011-02-07 05:01:19 <luke-jr> perhaps
 626 2011-02-07 05:01:45 <luke-jr> it has the potential to appear to those with the intellectual interests to adopt the tonal system too
 627 2011-02-07 05:01:49 <newsham> but btc today, sell it back next month for 2x$
 628 2011-02-07 05:02:09 <dissipate_> luke-jr, my theory is that when people can defect from central governments at a relatively cheap price they will do so.
 629 2011-02-07 05:02:09 <luke-jr> but so long as the freedom-worshippers insist on their-philosophy-only, that possibility might get killed off
 630 2011-02-07 05:02:20 <presence> how long does it take a buy to go through
 631 2011-02-07 05:02:24 <luke-jr> newsham: who guarantees that?
 632 2011-02-07 05:02:37 <newsham> huh?  there is no guarantee
 633 2011-02-07 05:02:43 <newsham> since when does greed require guarantees?
 634 2011-02-07 05:02:46 <luke-jr> newsham: exactly.
 635 2011-02-07 05:02:53 <dissipate_> luke-jr, we need to give people the ability to cut out the tax man. that's about it.
 636 2011-02-07 05:03:05 <luke-jr> dissipate_: BitCoin cannot fight taxes.
 637 2011-02-07 05:03:15 <x6763> dirtyfilthy: yeah, i made a lot of extra work for myself going this route, but i figured if i could complete a drop-in replacement bitcoin client, i'd have a fairly good understanding of how it all works
 638 2011-02-07 05:03:24 <dissipate_> luke-jr, in it's current form or in theory?
 639 2011-02-07 05:03:29 <luke-jr> dissipate_: either.
 640 2011-02-07 05:03:33 <dissipate_> luke-jr, how so?
 641 2011-02-07 05:03:44 <luke-jr> citizens still have a legal and moral obligation to pay taxes, no matter what currency
 642 2011-02-07 05:03:48 <newsham> wow, i love the tax man..  i dig roads and schools and fire depts and having police and price stability and a judicial system and all kindsa fun things like that
 643 2011-02-07 05:03:52 <dissipate_> luke-jr, seems natural that it could be used to do so quite cheaply and effectively
 644 2011-02-07 05:03:53 <newsham> you dont like the tax man?
 645 2011-02-07 05:04:25 <dissipate_> newsham, nope, i don't. i want all those things too but i want to decide how and when *I* will pay for them.
 646 2011-02-07 05:04:30 <luke-jr> dissipate_: then how will governments fund their services?
 647 2011-02-07 05:04:50 <dissipate_> newsham, except for 'schools'. glorified detention centers in my opinion.
 648 2011-02-07 05:04:51 <newsham> dissipate: bumer.. i hope there arent too many people like you
 649 2011-02-07 05:05:14 <newsham> tax dollars pay for artforz gpu farm! ;-)
 650 2011-02-07 05:05:17 <dissipate_> newsham, how so?
 651 2011-02-07 05:05:28 <newsham> he gets solar subsidies
 652 2011-02-07 05:05:31 <luke-jr> dissipate_++
 653 2011-02-07 05:05:38 <x6763> newsham: violence is not the answer
 654 2011-02-07 05:05:45 <luke-jr> dissipate_: did you see that attack on tonal on the forum? :P
 655 2011-02-07 05:05:54 <luke-jr> dissipate_: basically saying "if schools don't use it, it's worthless"
 656 2011-02-07 05:05:55 <newsham> x6763: i agree.. i dont advocate violence..
 657 2011-02-07 05:06:03 <x6763> newsham: yet you advocate governmetn?
 658 2011-02-07 05:06:09 <dissipate_> luke-jr, nope i did not.
 659 2011-02-07 05:06:09 <newsham> this is true.
 660 2011-02-07 05:06:34 <prax> yeah you are in a spot of contradiction there newsham
 661 2011-02-07 05:06:49 <dissipate_> let's face it people. the most honest man today would be an outlaw.
 662 2011-02-07 05:07:11 <presence> wow
 663 2011-02-07 05:07:16 <newsham> prax: and yet the lack of govt can also be quite violent.
 664 2011-02-07 05:07:17 <presence> on a public channel
 665 2011-02-07 05:07:27 <dissipate_> presence, what?
 666 2011-02-07 05:07:59 <dissipate_> presence, who what where?
 667 2011-02-07 05:08:04 <prax> right, more to it than just anarchy
 668 2011-02-07 05:08:15 <dissipate_> newsham, i'll take violence over serfdom any day. :O
 669 2011-02-07 05:08:43 <newsham> there can be serfs without govts, fwiw.
 670 2011-02-07 05:08:54 <x6763> newsham: government is founded on violence...it needs to threaten and initiate violence to exist...it cannot exist in any effective form without violence
 671 2011-02-07 05:09:03 <luke-jr> x6763: false.
 672 2011-02-07 05:09:13 <newsham> x6763: there is violence both with and without govt.
 673 2011-02-07 05:09:13 <prax> government is just institutionalization of aggression
 674 2011-02-07 05:09:21 <luke-jr> violence is only required when citizens disobey.
 675 2011-02-07 05:09:27 <prax> really need to make the distinction between violence and aggression
 676 2011-02-07 05:09:33 <prax> some violence is justified
 677 2011-02-07 05:09:38 <x6763> luke-jr: if citizens aren't disobeying, then there's no need for government anyway
 678 2011-02-07 05:09:45 <x6763> "need"
 679 2011-02-07 05:09:46 <luke-jr> x6763: yes, there is.
 680 2011-02-07 05:09:52 <newsham> x6763: the number one cause of death in hunter-gatherer societies is murder.
 681 2011-02-07 05:10:04 <newsham> thats non-govt violence.
 682 2011-02-07 05:10:13 <newsham> err i think that was for prax
 683 2011-02-07 05:10:23 <prax> kind of doubt that
 684 2011-02-07 05:10:28 <x6763> oh geez, this is stupid...i'm not even going to argue this right now
 685 2011-02-07 05:10:30 <prax> more like disease i bet
 686 2011-02-07 05:10:39 <prax> yea me neither
 687 2011-02-07 05:10:51 <Kiba> hmm
 688 2011-02-07 05:10:54 <dirtyfilthy> in the glorious libertarian utopia we'll have corporations to initiate violence for/on us
 689 2011-02-07 05:11:22 <newsham> fascism ftw, dirtyfilthy?
 690 2011-02-07 05:11:29 <newsham> fascism seems quite popular in america right now
 691 2011-02-07 05:11:46 <Kiba> Bitcoin law!
 692 2011-02-07 05:11:48 <prax> it wouldnt be this "utopia" if that aggression wasnt punished
 693 2011-02-07 05:11:49 <dissipate_> newsham, you don't think it is possible that government increases levels of violence? look at WW I, WW II and pretty much every other war in history. all bank rolled by governments.
 694 2011-02-07 05:11:51 <dirtyfilthy> the industrial revolution was a golden age
 695 2011-02-07 05:11:55 <Kiba> The law of bitcoin have no more force than what people say!
 696 2011-02-07 05:11:58 <prax> corporations arent somehow exempt
 697 2011-02-07 05:12:05 <Kiba> forged by economic bonds
 698 2011-02-07 05:12:18 <dirtyfilthy> more children down the coal mines i say!
 699 2011-02-07 05:12:19 <prax> yes it was dirty
 700 2011-02-07 05:12:26 <newsham> dissipate: *shrug* there's definitely lots of govt sponsored violence.
 701 2011-02-07 05:12:26 <prax> u know why people worked 14 hour days in factories
 702 2011-02-07 05:12:31 <newsham> i dont know if its overall icnreased or decreased
 703 2011-02-07 05:12:35 <prax> because they were poor as shit and dint want to starve
 704 2011-02-07 05:12:41 <newsham> thats an interesting question.. iw onder if there are any good studies on that
 705 2011-02-07 05:12:48 <Kiba> prax: how many hours do farmers work back then?
 706 2011-02-07 05:12:57 <prax> idk kiba
 707 2011-02-07 05:13:00 <prax> lots?
 708 2011-02-07 05:13:20 <dirtyfilthy> this is exactly why we should get rid of these socialist "labour laws"
 709 2011-02-07 05:13:21 <Kiba> hmm...probably
 710 2011-02-07 05:13:26 <Kiba> maybe they work as much hours as coal miners
 711 2011-02-07 05:13:41 <Kiba> or even more
 712 2011-02-07 05:13:43 <Kiba> I don't know
 713 2011-02-07 05:13:55 * Kiba googled farmer work hours in the 19th century
 714 2011-02-07 05:14:02 <prax> check out farming in old egypt
 715 2011-02-07 05:14:05 <prax> pretty brutal
 716 2011-02-07 05:14:26 <Kiba> google no good :/
 717 2011-02-07 05:14:57 <newsham> dirthyfilthy: seriously.. if those with the means to production say you shoudl work 16hrs/day in the salt mine, its not the govts place to say otherwise!
 718 2011-02-07 05:15:12 <Kiba> the moviation of labor law is to benefit unions and ban children as competitors!
 719 2011-02-07 05:15:19 <dissipate_> newsham, i suggest you look up essays and books by a modern philosopher called Anthony de Jasay. he explains why governments don't help society from a game theory perspective.
 720 2011-02-07 05:15:19 <dirtyfilthy> You move 16 tons and what do you get?
 721 2011-02-07 05:15:48 <newsham> I'm not realy looking for an "explanation"
 722 2011-02-07 05:15:53 <newsham> i would like to see numbers.
 723 2011-02-07 05:15:54 <dirtyfilthy> dissipate_: all the interesting problems in game theory also show why a self-interested & "rational" market doesn't work
 724 2011-02-07 05:16:09 <newsham> that cant be $20 on the floor
 725 2011-02-07 05:16:11 <Kiba> human actors aren't rational..doesn't everybody know that?
 726 2011-02-07 05:16:22 <x6763> Kiba: apparently not
 727 2011-02-07 05:16:32 <Kiba> right, silly economists
 728 2011-02-07 05:16:39 <x6763> lol
 729 2011-02-07 05:17:07 <Kiba> dirtyfilthy: O RLY? governments doesn't work either!
 730 2011-02-07 05:17:08 <dissipate_> dirtyfilthy, repeated prisoner's dilemma shows that a rational and self interested market does work actually.
 731 2011-02-07 05:17:27 <Kiba> democracy is an exercise in mob rule
 732 2011-02-07 05:17:28 <newsham> there's the small problem of market participants not beign rational
 733 2011-02-07 05:17:34 <dirtyfilthy> tragedy of the commons for one
 734 2011-02-07 05:17:43 <Kiba> dirtyfilthy: you fix that by property righting it
 735 2011-02-07 05:17:46 <newsham> just because a market works if participants are rational doesnt make the participants rational
 736 2011-02-07 05:17:56 <prax> no newsh the problem you are describing is lack of ex post knowledge
 737 2011-02-07 05:18:45 <Kiba> humans make many irrational mistakes yet we are richers than all the kings in the past 2000 years except the modern day monarchy that get to sit on their fat lazy asses
 738 2011-02-07 05:18:46 <dirtyfilthy> Kiba: how do you "property right" a river? or pollution?
 739 2011-02-07 05:18:47 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 740 2011-02-07 05:18:58 <Kiba> sue people upstream?
 741 2011-02-07 05:19:07 <Kiba> sue factories for polluting?
 742 2011-02-07 05:19:19 <dirtyfilthy> and who enforces they suits?
 743 2011-02-07 05:19:22 <prax> hallmark of statist here, lack of imagination
 744 2011-02-07 05:19:27 <prax> statists*
 745 2011-02-07 05:19:28 <newsham> cap'n trade? ;-)
 746 2011-02-07 05:20:00 <prax> big diff between state and free market system
 747 2011-02-07 05:20:36 <prax> pretty much the same as on all the other issues you cant figure out
 748 2011-02-07 05:20:44 <Kiba> the state is actually the biggest pollutors!
 749 2011-02-07 05:20:46 <newsham> kiba: my hunch is that its a temporary status.  technology advanced us faster than population could hold us back
 750 2011-02-07 05:20:52 <newsham> but dont worry, we'll lose in the end
 751 2011-02-07 05:20:58 <dissipate_> 'small' government folk don't understand that they are just selecting 1 system out of a pool of many possibilities and denying that the other possibilities could work.
 752 2011-02-07 05:21:01 <Kiba> who's going to sue the state?
 753 2011-02-07 05:21:14 <Kiba> dissipate_: well, I don't exactly know the answer to every problem
 754 2011-02-07 05:21:25 <Kiba> but the government is s till like the biggest environmental pollutors
 755 2011-02-07 05:21:32 <Kiba> plus you have the problem of who watch the regulators?
 756 2011-02-07 05:21:43 torbank has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 757 2011-02-07 05:21:45 <dirtyfilthy> the electors, in theory
 758 2011-02-07 05:21:57 <newsham> /topic #bitcoin-dev political philosophy
 759 2011-02-07 05:22:02 <newsham> /away
 760 2011-02-07 05:22:14 <Kiba> and the poor incentive of the population to actually get off their ass to learn economics and decide rationally
 761 2011-02-07 05:22:39 <prax> not in practice
 762 2011-02-07 05:22:41 <Kiba> but ya know, people like to stop everybody in their track with "democracy is the worst form of government except all others" which stop discussion
 763 2011-02-07 05:22:55 <prax> the amount of rights assignment bureaucrats have expands far faster than funds for oversight
 764 2011-02-07 05:23:02 <newsham> yah rich people deserve their money and poor people are lazy saps who deserve what htey get
 765 2011-02-07 05:23:04 <dissipate_> a government is an entity that by definition externalizes costs, therefore it is a parasite and should be eliminated. there is nothing to keep from the fetid horror.
 766 2011-02-07 05:23:09 <prax> and buraeucrats control those, big surprise there
 767 2011-02-07 05:23:26 <dirtyfilthy> newsham: fucking lazy ethiopians man, rather starve to death than to an honest days labour
 768 2011-02-07 05:23:37 <Kiba> is it true that all organizations like to expand their goals?
 769 2011-02-07 05:23:50 echelon has joined
 770 2011-02-07 05:24:01 <prax> that's just stupid you guys
 771 2011-02-07 05:24:13 <prax> we're talking to a couple halfwits kiba
 772 2011-02-07 05:24:19 <prax> later
 773 2011-02-07 05:24:35 * dirtyfilthy bows down before prax's superior intellect :P
 774 2011-02-07 05:24:40 <Kiba> we're in the bitcoin channel where our goal is to make bitcoin the dominant currency at the expense of all other currency!
 775 2011-02-07 05:24:46 <newsham> thank goodness all those smart peopel who came up with CDOs and then tricked moody's into misrating them got paid out for their net social benefit before that market tanked
 776 2011-02-07 05:25:12 <presence> heh
 777 2011-02-07 05:25:13 <dissipate_> prax, what is stupid?
 778 2011-02-07 05:25:16 <newsham> otherwise we might never have known how much smarter they are than us
 779 2011-02-07 05:25:41 <presence> I find it telling that the S&L crap has many of the same backers that this current mortgage situation had
 780 2011-02-07 05:26:30 <newsham> and a lot of the same watchdogs..  horray for the office of thrift supervision!
 781 2011-02-07 05:26:40 <presence> yeah, on both sides
 782 2011-02-07 05:26:47 <dissipate_> presence, the parasitic elite will eventually drain the host and then leave. the latest crisis is just the latest episode of that process.
 783 2011-02-07 05:26:48 <newsham> drexel burnham 2.0
 784 2011-02-07 05:27:14 <newsham> dissipate: or keep the host barely alive to drain it yet agin ;-)
 785 2011-02-07 05:27:31 <newsham> like all good religeons^h^h^h^h^h^h^hparasites
 786 2011-02-07 05:27:40 <dissipate_> newsham, not really going to be possible considering the whole system is past the point of no return.
 787 2011-02-07 05:27:48 <presence> there is such a thing as going too far...and that doesnt help either side
 788 2011-02-07 05:27:55 <newsham> i doubt it.  i dont think its gonna go away
 789 2011-02-07 05:27:57 <presence> just produces lots of bloodshed
 790 2011-02-07 05:28:03 <dissipate_> newsham, they could strike again after the host recovers though
 791 2011-02-07 05:28:25 <presence> "let them eat cake"
 792 2011-02-07 05:28:30 <newsham> i thought you said the host is going to die
 793 2011-02-07 05:28:39 <newsham> now you're saing it will recover. :)
 794 2011-02-07 05:28:43 <presence> it worked perfectly for the french right up until they were beheaded
 795 2011-02-07 05:28:47 <dissipate_> newsham, which makes me wonder why you want to keep the parasites around for some long lost hope of them wanting to protect you out of the goodness of their hearts.
 796 2011-02-07 05:29:23 <dissipate_> newsham, well drain doesn't necessarily mean die, just resources exhausted.
 797 2011-02-07 05:29:46 <newsham> let them eat high fructose corn syrup
 798 2011-02-07 05:30:06 <newsham> "let them eat corn" is probably about right today
 799 2011-02-07 05:30:10 <presence> except the cake wasnt killing them as they were being actively killed elsewhere :D
 800 2011-02-07 05:30:19 <newsham> monsanto ftw!
 801 2011-02-07 05:30:59 <dissipate_> newsham, btw, did you ever consider that using bitcoin as a payment method as a merchant could get you in trouble with the gov?
 802 2011-02-07 05:31:01 <newsham> let them eat goldman's sack
 803 2011-02-07 05:31:14 <newsham> dissipate: i know it could.. and i'm not a merchant.
 804 2011-02-07 05:31:42 <presence> I like capitalism
 805 2011-02-07 05:31:42 <dissipate_> newsham, before you said you would be willing to set up a POS
 806 2011-02-07 05:32:11 <dissipate_> presence, i do too. not state capitalism though, which is really fascism.
 807 2011-02-07 05:32:19 <presence> its when stuff gets skewed due to stupid shit like subsidies and reward for no work that sucks balls
 808 2011-02-07 05:32:35 <newsham> dissipate; maybe someone else?  prob not me?  at least idont remember saying that
 809 2011-02-07 05:32:41 <newsham> i did say i would code for btc :)
 810 2011-02-07 05:32:44 <dissipate_> presence, that's not capitalism, that's plunder and shakedowns
 811 2011-02-07 05:33:04 <Netsniper> no one cares
 812 2011-02-07 05:33:07 <dissipate_> newsham, oops, could have gotten you mixed up with another guy. nevermind.
 813 2011-02-07 05:33:09 <Netsniper> more bread & circus, plz
 814 2011-02-07 05:33:11 <newsham> no worries
 815 2011-02-07 05:33:18 <newsham> less guns more butter
 816 2011-02-07 05:33:18 <dissipate_> Netsniper, no one cares about what?
 817 2011-02-07 05:33:21 <presence> like it or not, at this moment, unless you own an island, the US still has the best thing going...for now.
 818 2011-02-07 05:33:27 <Netsniper> reality
 819 2011-02-07 05:33:39 <dissipate_> Netsniper, i agree
 820 2011-02-07 05:33:49 <Netsniper> it's tedius and complicated
 821 2011-02-07 05:33:55 <dirtyfilthy> speaking of not caring about reality, i think it's beer & joint tiem
 822 2011-02-07 05:33:58 <dissipate_> most people wallow in a stupor of delusions
 823 2011-02-07 05:33:58 <presence> more nukes less kooks
 824 2011-02-07 05:34:04 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 825 2011-02-07 05:34:24 <dissipate_> presence, best thing going in what way?
 826 2011-02-07 05:34:32 ArtForz has joined
 827 2011-02-07 05:34:37 <presence> personal freedoms today
 828 2011-02-07 05:35:01 <presence> they are being bled away, but they arent gone
 829 2011-02-07 05:35:42 <newsham> presence; its only a problem if bitcoin conquors its first problem -- being successful
 830 2011-02-07 05:35:59 <Netsniper> external narratives given by narcissistic psychopaths trump the reality of being born, living and dying a soveriegn individual
 831 2011-02-07 05:36:29 <newsham> a wise man once said "go with the flow"
 832 2011-02-07 05:36:55 <newsham> i'm out.. enjoy...
 833 2011-02-07 05:37:25 <dissipate_> presence, i disagree, different countries have more freedom for certain things.
 834 2011-02-07 05:38:35 <presence> As long as you can remain armed, there is still hope
 835 2011-02-07 05:40:22 <dissipate_> presence, also, the U.S. is a large empire. while U.S. inhabitants may be relatively 'free', the U.S. military is in hundreds of countries imposing itself on others in brutal and forceful ways.
 836 2011-02-07 05:41:03 <dissipate_> Netsniper, it's all about the Constitution. right? :P
 837 2011-02-07 05:41:04 <presence> Unfortunately, thats the way of things.  Before the US is was germany, france, england, japan
 838 2011-02-07 05:41:24 Necr0s has joined
 839 2011-02-07 05:41:31 <Netsniper> dissipate_: lysander spooner said something about that...
 840 2011-02-07 05:42:09 <dissipate_> Netsniper, ever try to argue someone out of their belief in a particular narrative?
 841 2011-02-07 05:42:31 <Kiba> hmm
 842 2011-02-07 05:42:34 <Netsniper> why?
 843 2011-02-07 05:42:45 <Kiba> The Consistution of No Treason
 844 2011-02-07 05:42:56 <Kiba> he also started a mail competition to compete with the US postal service
 845 2011-02-07 05:42:57 <Kiba> badass
 846 2011-02-07 05:43:07 <Kiba> s/competition/company
 847 2011-02-07 05:44:54 <dissipate_> Netsniper, just curious
 848 2011-02-07 05:45:22 <dissipate_> Kiba, did it compete or did he start it up before the government took over? i can't remember.
 849 2011-02-07 05:45:36 <Kiba> he compete but the government shut him down
 850 2011-02-07 05:45:44 <Kiba> damn government lawyers
 851 2011-02-07 05:45:53 <Kiba> he basically made mail cheap
 852 2011-02-07 05:48:06 <Netsniper> seems inconsistent with the idea of liberty or freedom to limit a peaceful activity
 853 2011-02-07 05:49:44 <dissipate_> Netsniper, that's not the popular belief, unfortunately.
 854 2011-02-07 05:50:54 <Kiba> people are not consistent
 855 2011-02-07 05:51:02 <Kiba> their belief system is compartmenized
 856 2011-02-07 05:51:14 <Netsniper> Argumentum ad populum...
 857 2011-02-07 05:51:49 <Kiba> just explaining why they didn't think so
 858 2011-02-07 05:52:36 <dissipate_> Kiba, their belief system is fed to them early on through TV, school and their parents.
 859 2011-02-07 05:53:11 <Kiba> dissipate_: no, they just don't think very hard
 860 2011-02-07 05:53:22 <Kiba> "Ok, what is the basis of my ethical system?"
 861 2011-02-07 05:53:45 <Netsniper> democracy!
 862 2011-02-07 05:54:37 <Kiba> Some people's belief system will naturally be the opposite of ours
 863 2011-02-07 05:54:48 <Kiba> once they think through
 864 2011-02-07 05:55:22 <Kiba> but most people's beliefs are just...incohorent
 865 2011-02-07 05:56:43 <dissipate_> Kiba, yep. it reminds me of white noise.
 866 2011-02-07 05:56:52 <dissipate_> just a bunch of 'blah' 'blah'
 867 2011-02-07 05:58:13 <presence> hopefully my gpus will show up tomorrow
 868 2011-02-07 05:58:45 <presence> ups-- and snow_excuses--
 869 2011-02-07 06:00:54 <Netsniper> heh "Delivery exception: SNOWPOCALYPSE!"
 870 2011-02-07 06:01:14 <presence> last I checked kansas city wasnt underground
 871 2011-02-07 06:01:44 <Kiba> we seem to be a bunch of ubermensch though
 872 2011-02-07 06:02:02 <dirtyfilthy> ahahahaha
 873 2011-02-07 06:02:04 <presence> lol
 874 2011-02-07 06:02:05 <dirtyfilthy> eh
 875 2011-02-07 06:02:06 <dissipate_> presence, by tomorrow they may be useless for mining if someone activates a huge mining farm that raises the difficulty to a huge number.
 876 2011-02-07 06:02:13 <Kiba> ubermensch wannaba*
 877 2011-02-07 06:02:52 <Kiba> let face it...which political interest have the most interest in cryptocurrency, anti-aging, seasteading, and all the technological marvels?
 878 2011-02-07 06:02:54 <dissipate_> which makes me wonder how bit coin handles someone activating a huge mining operation.
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 880 2011-02-07 06:03:38 <dissipate_> Kiba, seasteading. international currency that is not tied to fiat and doesn't require cargo space or security like gold or silver.
 881 2011-02-07 06:03:42 <presence> it cant handle it any other way that just deaking with it
 882 2011-02-07 06:04:02 <presence> if its over 50% then there is possibly an issue
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 884 2011-02-07 06:09:35 Syke is now known as afk!~Syke@173-11-125-162-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net|Syke
 885 2011-02-07 06:12:20 <Kiba> hmm
 886 2011-02-07 06:16:53 <dissipate_> Kiba, yes?
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 894 2011-02-07 06:22:59 <Syke> reading the buffer, this made me LOL. "midnightmagic_> with a chargeback, VISA fraud division kicks in and starts tracking criminals down." VISA couldn't care less about fraud. They don't lose anything.
 895 2011-02-07 06:25:33 <prax> don't merchants pay for certain levels of fraud protection?
 896 2011-02-07 06:25:55 <Syke> there's no such thing
 897 2011-02-07 06:25:56 <prax> so I would think they would care then to some extent
 898 2011-02-07 06:26:09 <prax> eh, well IDK but I was reading about this
 899 2011-02-07 06:26:27 <prax> like some do certain levels of verification, ZIP code for instance
 900 2011-02-07 06:26:27 <Syke> I deal with fraud every day. :(
 901 2011-02-07 06:26:35 <prax> =(
 902 2011-02-07 06:26:47 <prax> how is that?
 903 2011-02-07 06:27:07 <prax> but yeah I see why you mean they dont care because the merchant gets the loss of money, loss of items, chargeback fee, etc
 904 2011-02-07 06:27:09 <echelon> does anyone have enough btc's in their balance to order a hit?
 905 2011-02-07 06:27:12 <Syke> any fraud is paid by the merchants
 906 2011-02-07 06:27:35 <prax> do you know about high risk CC processors?
 907 2011-02-07 06:28:00 <Syke> to me they all are. what about it?
 908 2011-02-07 06:28:17 <prax> just trying to get some idea what they typically charge
 909 2011-02-07 06:28:56 <Syke> I've never found one that will take responsibility for fraud. it's always on the merchant
 910 2011-02-07 06:29:07 <prax> trying to find a way to offer bitcoin as an alternative to biz who are forced to use HR CC processors
 911 2011-02-07 06:29:18 <prax> i know that
 912 2011-02-07 06:29:37 <prax> I mean the ones who take merchants for more "questionable" things like porn, casinos, etc
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 914 2011-02-07 06:44:24 <midnightmagic_> Syke: it doesn't matter whether they lose anything (even though they do.)
 915 2011-02-07 06:45:19 <Syke> VISA does not take fraud seriously.
 916 2011-02-07 06:45:26 <midnightmagic_> Syke: the fraud divisions exist, and they work to track down criminals and prosecute them.
 917 2011-02-07 06:45:56 <midnightmagic_> there's a whole bunch of buildings full of people in their fraud divisions who might disagree with you.
 918 2011-02-07 06:46:29 <Syke> they're all busy charging the merchants for the fraud
 919 2011-02-07 06:47:38 <midnightmagic_> you mean merchants who didn't get a signature, took the numbers of smartcards without using the smartcard PIN, didn't check ID, and generally don't treat fraud seriously themselves?
 920 2011-02-07 06:48:14 <Syke> yeah, like an internet based merchant that can't get a signature, etc.
 921 2011-02-07 06:48:21 <afed> laff
 922 2011-02-07 06:48:23 <midnightmagic_> .. perhaps, accepted a card without a signature on it, didn't reconcile at the end of the day the way they should have, or otherwise took a visa number online without using the verified-by routines?
 923 2011-02-07 06:48:31 <afed> they simply can't fix fraud
 924 2011-02-07 06:48:40 <afed> the way the payment card system is set up
 925 2011-02-07 06:48:52 <afed> it's cheaper to have a slush fund to pay victims out of
 926 2011-02-07 06:49:11 <afed> i'm not even sure anything is wrong with that approach
 927 2011-02-07 06:49:23 <midnightmagic_> oh, I see. you're talking about online merchants who'll do anything to accept online credit cards and then whine about the risks they willingly agreed to when they signed their merchants' agreements?
 928 2011-02-07 06:49:40 <afed> if they chose security instead of paying victims off, the cost of the security would still be passed on to the merchants and customers
 929 2011-02-07 06:49:41 <Syke> ah, the merchant agreement. yup
 930 2011-02-07 06:49:52 <Syke> like I said, it's the merchant that takes all the risk
 931 2011-02-07 06:50:53 <Syke> name one major online merchant that does a human phone call based address verification and only ships to billing address.
 932 2011-02-07 06:51:55 <Syke> Visa has no automated way to verify full billing addresses.
 933 2011-02-07 06:52:25 <Syke> It take a minimum of two phone calls to track down the bank of the issuing card to do an address verification over the phone.
 934 2011-02-07 06:52:55 <midnightmagic_> i'm failing to see here how this shows VISA doesn't take fraud seriously. it's sounding a lot like you think high-risk retailers who should know better should shoulder less of the burden than brick-and-mortar.
 935 2011-02-07 06:53:24 <Syke> Visa offers no better way to reduce fraud.
 936 2011-02-07 06:53:33 <midnightmagic_> having come from brick-and-mortar, there's no way in hell I would ever have taken cards sight unseen, no signature, no security checks.
 937 2011-02-07 06:54:01 <midnightmagic_> besides that, VISA doesn't just plain old do pure chargebacks at the drop of a hat.
 938 2011-02-07 06:54:30 <Syke> sure they do. they're usually valid chargebacks due to stolen credit cards.
 939 2011-02-07 06:55:45 <Syke> but since visa doesn't offer a reliable method to verify addresses, no, they don't take it seriously
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 944 2011-02-07 07:05:13 <testing1234> Bitcoin is the new curreny at Pala casino.
 945 2011-02-07 07:05:16 <testing1234> Just kidding.
 946 2011-02-07 07:05:35 <testing1234> ...but that would be cool!
 947 2011-02-07 07:05:43 <testing1234> Anyone for tennis?
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 970 2011-02-07 08:59:19 <Necr0s> Suppose I "lose my wallet", and have no backup.  Are any coins in it lost and gone forever?
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 974 2011-02-07 09:07:12 <Syke> Necr0s, yes, if you lose your wallet the coins are lost forever.
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 976 2011-02-07 09:20:33 <da2ce7> anyone good at silver stripe cms?
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 986 2011-02-07 10:30:35 <necrodearia> More feedback wanted at http://meta.witcoin.com/p/56/user-generated-categories
 987 2011-02-07 10:31:40 <necrodearia> Although, the feedback doesn't need to take place at the site, but regarding the content
 988 2011-02-07 10:32:31 <necrodearia> For a user-generated content site that allows users to establish their own categories, what seems like a reasonable or acceptable implementation that is fair for all users and not just ones that satisfy first-come-first-serve?
 989 2011-02-07 10:34:47 <noagendamarket> an auction system
 990 2011-02-07 10:35:57 <noagendamarket> ie let market demand sort things out
 991 2011-02-07 10:35:59 dereckson has joined
 992 2011-02-07 10:36:02 <dereckson> Good morning
 993 2011-02-07 10:36:15 <noagendamarket> morning
 994 2011-02-07 10:37:46 <dereckson> According http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=151222 wxWidgets 2.9 will soon be in the FreeBSD ports tree, so I then will be able to prepare a FreeBSD port (local name for packages).
 995 2011-02-07 10:39:55 <dereckson> I wondered if this patch - http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=379.0 - have been applied to the main Makefile or is still required nowadays.
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1004 2011-02-07 12:17:29 <andrew12> (pedxing) it takes twenty-five muscles to frown, and only twelve to punch some wiseass in the mouth.
1005 2011-02-07 12:18:21 <afed> ;;bc,stats
1006 2011-02-07 12:18:23 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106699 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 148 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 23 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25587.43273836
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1011 2011-02-07 13:12:54 <CIA-98> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn master * rd2e2cb0 / net.cpp :
1012 2011-02-07 13:12:54 <CIA-98> bitcoin: Added 320 fresh seednodes to replace the old ones.
1013 2011-02-07 13:12:54 <CIA-98> bitcoin: Thanks to MagicalTux for providing the data for node uptime
1014 2011-02-07 13:12:54 <CIA-98> bitcoin: Thanks to sgornick for scapy script to test node connectivity
1015 2011-02-07 13:12:54 <CIA-98> bitcoin: Closes https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/22 - http://bit.ly/fDU2cE
1016 2011-02-07 13:17:10 <tcatm> mhm. Isn't github supposed to close the pull request on merge?
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1023 2011-02-07 13:33:34 <molecular> noagendamarket, why did you give me 2 witcoins?
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1027 2011-02-07 14:07:12 <afed> ;;bc,stats
1028 2011-02-07 14:07:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106714 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 133 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 18 hours, 12 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25632.17589028
1029 2011-02-07 14:07:35 <afed> everyone turn off their GPUs please
1030 2011-02-07 14:07:58 <xelister> what is current diff increase speed?
1031 2011-02-07 14:08:02 <xelister> x1.10 each 1 week?
1032 2011-02-07 14:08:09 <tcatm> afed: sure, just pay me 2500 BTC
1033 2011-02-07 14:08:27 <afed> tcatm: you'll earn more than 2500 BTC when the difficulty adjusts downward
1034 2011-02-07 14:08:32 <xelister> or, what you estimate the  weekly-diff-increase in upcoming 2 months, +10% each week?
1035 2011-02-07 14:09:55 <afed> my GPU shipment can't come fast enough :(
1036 2011-02-07 14:10:19 <xelister> afed: you can use my miner too =)
1037 2011-02-07 14:10:43 <afed> lol who's that guy contracting mining capacity
1038 2011-02-07 14:10:58 <afed> wonder how he builds out
1039 2011-02-07 14:11:10 <xelister> me?
1040 2011-02-07 14:11:16 <afed> presumably he has to scrounge ebay for more 5970 cards and build more nodes whenever he signs a new contract
1041 2011-02-07 14:12:14 <afed> are you vladmir?
1042 2011-02-07 14:12:41 <xelister> no. are you?
1043 2011-02-07 14:12:48 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1044 2011-02-07 14:12:50 <xelister> =)
1045 2011-02-07 14:12:50 <afed> no
1046 2011-02-07 14:12:58 <cosurgi> I'm not either.
1047 2011-02-07 14:13:04 <xelister> so you woulc be interested in ordering such cluster?
1048 2011-02-07 14:13:25 <xelister> for 2 weeks or more
1049 2011-02-07 14:13:37 <afed> need to run some numbers
1050 2011-02-07 14:13:48 <afed> half the fun is building the hardware yourself though
1051 2011-02-07 14:14:14 <afed> all i ever planned to do was have some fun and if i came out ahead after selling the hardware, i'd consider it a bonus
1052 2011-02-07 14:14:27 <afed> i'm not going to contract with someone else to do the fun part for me
1053 2011-02-07 14:14:37 <afed> and be left with the risk of currency speculating
1054 2011-02-07 14:18:18 mtgox has joined
1055 2011-02-07 14:21:58 sotto has joined
1056 2011-02-07 14:39:00 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1057 2011-02-07 14:42:08 <luke-jr> actually
1058 2011-02-07 14:42:15 <luke-jr> what happens if all the miners sandbox?
1059 2011-02-07 14:42:47 <luke-jr> A. we just get the next 20x0 blocks fast and difficulty soars ;P
1060 2011-02-07 14:46:54 <afed> what's the difficulty on the test network?
1061 2011-02-07 14:47:09 <afed> might be fun to mint a few hundred thousand tBTC
1062 2011-02-07 14:47:22 <slush> around 340
1063 2011-02-07 14:48:01 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 340
1064 2011-02-07 14:48:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340, is 1 hour, 31 minutes, and 50 seconds
1065 2011-02-07 14:48:20 <slush> good luck :)
1066 2011-02-07 14:48:26 <luke-jr> meh, don't have that much time -.-
1067 2011-02-07 14:48:27 <afed> ;;bc,calcd 1000000 340
1068 2011-02-07 14:48:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340, is 24 minutes and 20 seconds
1069 2011-02-07 14:48:34 <afed> meh
1070 2011-02-07 14:48:49 <luke-jr> 18 hours till next difficulty and still no block
1071 2011-02-07 14:48:50 <afed> don't feel like taking them out of production
1072 2011-02-07 14:48:53 <slush> oh, real difficulty is 186
1073 2011-02-07 14:48:55 <luke-jr> I need to spend every second mining for real
1074 2011-02-07 14:49:07 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 186
1075 2011-02-07 14:49:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 186, is 50 minutes and 14 seconds
1076 2011-02-07 14:49:43 <afed> dear slush, i don't know how agressively you are profiling people's behavior for possible cheating
1077 2011-02-07 14:49:53 <slush> what?
1078 2011-02-07 14:49:57 <luke-jr> afed: cheating is impossible
1079 2011-02-07 14:49:59 <afed> but i use my desktop box to mine only when i am not using it or asleep
1080 2011-02-07 14:50:04 <afed> so i turn the miners on and off
1081 2011-02-07 14:50:18 <slush> dear afed, I didn't banned you
1082 2011-02-07 14:50:34 <dereckson> Maybe it's a matter of definition. What do you mean by "cheating" afed?
1083 2011-02-07 14:50:42 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1084 2011-02-07 14:50:47 <afed> thx, i just wanted to make sure it didn't look like i was up to no good, stopping and starting some miners routinely
1085 2011-02-07 14:50:55 <luke-jr> dereckson: acceptable cheats are already *implemented* :p
1086 2011-02-07 14:51:38 <luke-jr> I have had 3 ideas for possible "cheats" so far
1087 2011-02-07 14:51:45 <luke-jr> 1 was inherently impossible
1088 2011-02-07 14:51:49 <luke-jr> 1 was implemented
1089 2011-02-07 14:51:56 <luke-jr> 1 was checked/prevented
1090 2011-02-07 14:53:01 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,stats
1091 2011-02-07 14:53:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106725 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 122 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 16 hours, 42 minutes, and 26 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25687.51875022
1092 2011-02-07 14:53:10 <slush> luke-jr: second one is what?
1093 2011-02-07 14:53:20 <EvanR-work> new difficulty today!
1094 2011-02-07 14:53:31 TheAncientGoat has joined
1095 2011-02-07 14:53:40 <luke-jr> in order, 1. submit blocks to network directly, bypassing the pool (impossible because the hash depends on the generation payout address); 2. Preprocess everything but the nonce and copy the SHA256 state ("midstate"); 3. Send a timestamp of 1.5 hrs in the future when I *do* find a block, locking out all others for that long (others will send future timestamp if necessary)
1096 2011-02-07 14:54:25 genjix has joined
1097 2011-02-07 14:54:35 <slush> but 3. does not make any money for you, isn't it?
1098 2011-02-07 14:54:50 <genjix> hey MT`AwAy
1099 2011-02-07 14:55:00 <luke-jr> slush: true, it would have just been a jerk action :P
1100 2011-02-07 14:55:14 <luke-jr> it might have long-term kept difficulty loweer
1101 2011-02-07 14:55:19 <luke-jr> at the expense of others
1102 2011-02-07 14:55:20 <slush> luke-jr: much easier si simply don't upload valid block
1103 2011-02-07 14:55:39 <luke-jr> but that's at your own expense ;)
1104 2011-02-07 14:55:57 <slush> but pool does not accept modified timestamp, so this is not possible :)
1105 2011-02-07 14:56:12 <luke-jr> well, that idea was without pool
1106 2011-02-07 14:56:14 <slush> and I didn't catch 2.
1107 2011-02-07 14:56:18 <slush> oh so
1108 2011-02-07 14:56:34 <luke-jr> 2 was simply to create what the client calls "midstate" and use that
1109 2011-02-07 15:02:00 altamic has joined
1110 2011-02-07 15:02:34 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1111 2011-02-07 15:03:52 mtgox has joined
1112 2011-02-07 15:08:36 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1113 2011-02-07 15:10:45 akem has joined
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1115 2011-02-07 15:16:15 <hacim> what is the second number in the hashrate output on Diablo's miner?
1116 2011-02-07 15:16:37 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1117 2011-02-07 15:20:53 molecular has joined
1118 2011-02-07 15:23:52 <[Noodles]> afaik 1st is current hashrate, 2nd is overall hashrate
1119 2011-02-07 15:24:00 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1120 2011-02-07 15:24:50 devon_hillard has joined
1121 2011-02-07 15:24:55 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
1122 2011-02-07 15:24:55 devon_hillard has joined
1123 2011-02-07 15:25:38 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r222 /trunk/ (main.cpp rpc.cpp main.h): (log message trimmed)
1124 2011-02-07 15:25:39 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: ReacceptWalletTransactions bugfix
1125 2011-02-07 15:25:39 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Fix two bugs that can happen if you copy your wallet to another machine
1126 2011-02-07 15:25:39 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: and perform transactions on both.
1127 2011-02-07 15:25:39 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: First, ReacceptWalletTransactions would notice if the other wallet spent coins, and
1128 2011-02-07 15:25:39 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: would correctly mark the receiving transaction spent. However, it did not add the spending
1129 2011-02-07 15:25:40 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: transaction to the wallet. Now it does.
1130 2011-02-07 15:25:40 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r223 /trunk/ (init.cpp main.cpp rpc.cpp):
1131 2011-02-07 15:25:41 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Reconcile getbalance and listaccounts 0 in the shared-wallet case
1132 2011-02-07 15:25:41 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: If you copied your wallet and used it on two different machines, the balance
1133 2011-02-07 15:25:42 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: reported by getbalance and the sum(listaccounts) could disagree, because you
1134 2011-02-07 15:25:42 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: might receive payments for an address that is in your wallet but not your
1135 2011-02-07 15:25:43 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: address book. Now all such transactions are credited to the default
1136 2011-02-07 15:25:43 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: empty-string account.
1137 2011-02-07 15:25:44 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r224 /trunk/init.cpp: Fix issue 34: correct spelling of -rpcsslcertificatechainfile in --help text.
1138 2011-02-07 15:25:45 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r225 /trunk/init.cpp: print -rescan timing info in debug.log
1139 2011-02-07 15:25:47 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r226 /trunk/init.cpp:
1140 2011-02-07 15:25:47 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Add new command line argument "-printtoconsole" to send debugging output to the
1141 2011-02-07 15:25:59 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r237 /trunk/util.cpp: Don't scan the time offsets vector repeatedly once we've displayed the warning that the user's clock may be wrong.
1142 2011-02-07 15:25:59 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r238 /trunk/build-unix.txt: Explicitly state that make -f makfile.unix is the way to build
1143 2011-02-07 15:26:00 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r239 /trunk/main.cpp: new checkpoint at block 105,000
1144 2011-02-07 15:26:01 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r240 /trunk/main.cpp: Reset testnet with a new genesis block
1145 2011-02-07 15:26:03 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: gavinandresen * r241 /trunk/net.cpp:
1146 2011-02-07 15:26:03 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Added 320 fresh seednodes to replace the old ones.
1147 2011-02-07 15:26:03 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Thanks to MagicalTux for providing the data for node uptime
1148 2011-02-07 15:26:03 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Thanks to sgornick for scapy script to test node connectivity
1149 2011-02-07 15:26:03 <CIA-98> Bitcoin: Closes https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/22
1150 2011-02-07 15:31:34 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1151 2011-02-07 15:36:12 gavinandresen has joined
1152 2011-02-07 15:36:49 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1153 2011-02-07 15:38:38 <Diablo-D3> jesus gavin
1154 2011-02-07 15:38:39 <Diablo-D3> code much
1155 2011-02-07 15:38:46 <gavinandresen> huhwhat?
1156 2011-02-07 15:39:14 <gavinandresen> Did I do something stupid again?
1157 2011-02-07 15:39:35 <tcatm> the CIA bot flooded the channel when you committed to SVN ;)
1158 2011-02-07 15:39:51 <Diablo-D3> yeah
1159 2011-02-07 15:39:55 <Diablo-D3> lol
1160 2011-02-07 15:39:58 <gavinandresen> Ah... CIA bot did something stupid...
1161 2011-02-07 15:40:01 <afed> ;;bc,calcd 1000000 340
1162 2011-02-07 15:40:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340, is 24 minutes and 20 seconds
1163 2011-02-07 15:40:04 <Diablo-D3> gavinandresen: no
1164 2011-02-07 15:40:12 <afed> ;;bc,stats
1165 2011-02-07 15:40:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106734 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 113 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 15 hours, 17 minutes, and 11 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25750.04652501
1166 2011-02-07 15:40:14 <Diablo-D3> we're just making fun of you committing everything and the kitchen sink
1167 2011-02-07 15:40:53 <gavinandresen> Well, I was waffling between just copying the files to SVN or copying all the commits.  Commits seems better (preserving history and all)
1168 2011-02-07 15:42:13 citiz3n_afk is now known as citiz3n
1169 2011-02-07 15:42:30 altamic has joined
1170 2011-02-07 15:42:57 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1171 2011-02-07 15:43:16 <Diablo-D3> but doesnt git support exporting commits?
1172 2011-02-07 15:44:02 <gavinandresen> Yes, that's what I did (git svn dcommit to push all git commits since 0.3.19 to the svn tree)
1173 2011-02-07 15:44:53 <Diablo-D3> nice
1174 2011-02-07 15:46:32 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: probably before the next release, nodes should pass tx < 0.01 BTC
1175 2011-02-07 15:46:55 <luke-jr> tcatm suggested using 0.0001 for the new limit, to avoid confusion between 1,001 and 1.001
1176 2011-02-07 15:47:12 <tcatm> luke-jr: won't happen in .20
1177 2011-02-07 15:47:38 <luke-jr> clarification: next being whatever isn't in freeze state
1178 2011-02-07 15:47:51 darkskiez_ has quit (Quit: darkskiez_)
1179 2011-02-07 15:48:06 <luke-jr> ideally, users should be able to configure fee stuff :p
1180 2011-02-07 15:48:11 <gavinandresen> Is it time to create a feature roadmap somewhere?  Any chance we'd stick to it do y'all think?
1181 2011-02-07 15:48:26 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: wiki works :p
1182 2011-02-07 15:48:35 <luke-jr> just prepend * to each item to make a bulleted list
1183 2011-02-07 15:49:00 <tcatm> A roadmap would be good. I tried to clean up the issues at github to be more "roadmap"-like but that's still a little confusing
1184 2011-02-07 15:49:40 <gavinandresen> I like what you did tagging issues with release numbers, great idea.
1185 2011-02-07 15:49:45 <tcatm> Also, either a pure developer subforum or mailinglist would be great to coordinate things
1186 2011-02-07 15:51:35 <luke-jr> isn't that what the forum is supposed to be?
1187 2011-02-07 15:51:38 <gavinandresen> do you think mailing list would work better than forum?  It does take more commitment to subscribe to a mailing list, so there'd probably be less wandering off-topic...
1188 2011-02-07 15:51:49 riush has joined
1189 2011-02-07 15:51:52 <luke-jr> mailing lists are just a pain
1190 2011-02-07 15:51:58 <luke-jr> not that forums aren't.
1191 2011-02-07 15:52:21 <gavinandresen> A little pain is a good idiot-filter
1192 2011-02-07 15:52:25 <luke-jr> ML also make it easier to pedanticly reply to each and every little thing :P
1193 2011-02-07 15:52:45 dwdollar2 has left ()
1194 2011-02-07 15:52:46 <tcatm> mailing lists are threaded which is good, too
1195 2011-02-07 15:53:38 <luke-jr> tcatm: only so far as people's mail clients are compliant
1196 2011-02-07 15:53:52 <luke-jr> *cough*Gmail*cough*
1197 2011-02-07 15:54:01 <tcatm> I'd expect any developer to know how to use a mail client ;)
1198 2011-02-07 15:54:26 <luke-jr> tcatm: how many people use broken mail agents like Gmail though?
1199 2011-02-07 15:54:42 <tcatm> I, sometimes. For private mail.
1200 2011-02-07 15:54:51 <luke-jr> exactly
1201 2011-02-07 15:55:25 <jrabbit> luke-jr: like everyone.
1202 2011-02-07 15:55:53 <luke-jr> hence, mailing lists don't really work with threading in practice :p
1203 2011-02-07 15:56:03 <jrabbit> ^^
1204 2011-02-07 15:56:07 <luke-jr> I vote NNTP, but I'm probably being unrealistic :P
1205 2011-02-07 15:56:21 <jrabbit> luke-jr: google groups isn't that unrealistic...
1206 2011-02-07 15:56:41 <jrabbit> (I donno that you can access that over nttp though)
1207 2011-02-07 15:56:45 <luke-jr> jrabbit: …
1208 2011-02-07 15:56:49 <jrabbit> Someone might have written a legacy API
1209 2011-02-07 15:56:52 <luke-jr> sigh
1210 2011-02-07 15:56:53 <edcba> jrabbit: binary files ! :)
1211 2011-02-07 15:57:11 <jrabbit> actually thats probably a cool little idea someone mgiht not have done
1212 2011-02-07 15:57:18 <luke-jr> GitHub. Google Groups. You'd think BitCoin was anti-freedom, yet we seem to have a bunch of freedom worshippers…
1213 2011-02-07 15:57:43 <jrabbit> best products.
1214 2011-02-07 15:57:48 <luke-jr> not
1215 2011-02-07 15:58:20 <jrabbit> FOSS makes great products too, but its not universal yet and subscribing to it deeper than RMS doesn't make it so
1216 2011-02-07 15:58:51 <luke-jr> admittedly, I don't know a good NNTP reader
1217 2011-02-07 15:58:59 <tcatm> IMHO github is missing a good bugtracker and forum/mailing list-like thing for devs (or I haven't discovered it yet)
1218 2011-02-07 15:59:13 <luke-jr> I suppose KNode might work
1219 2011-02-07 15:59:47 <luke-jr> honestly, I don't have a problem with the existing forum
1220 2011-02-07 15:59:55 <Diablo-D3> I dunno
1221 2011-02-07 16:00:00 <Diablo-D3> I actually like github's bugtracker
1222 2011-02-07 16:00:07 <Diablo-D3> its extremely minimalistic
1223 2011-02-07 16:00:22 <luke-jr> except that it's non-free software
1224 2011-02-07 16:00:32 <Diablo-D3> now, if you want better shit
1225 2011-02-07 16:00:39 <Diablo-D3> you do shit like jira
1226 2011-02-07 16:00:42 <Diablo-D3> we dont need jira
1227 2011-02-07 16:00:50 * luke-jr doesn't care for Jira
1228 2011-02-07 16:00:55 <luke-jr> Bugzilla works better IMO
1229 2011-02-07 16:01:00 <luke-jr> and Bugzilla is still kinda ugly
1230 2011-02-07 16:01:06 <jrabbit> luke-jr: Vanilla is a good FOSS forum.
1231 2011-02-07 16:01:11 <Diablo-D3> dude
1232 2011-02-07 16:01:13 <Diablo-D3> bugzilla is shit
1233 2011-02-07 16:01:14 <Diablo-D3> its shit
1234 2011-02-07 16:01:15 <Diablo-D3> it
1235 2011-02-07 16:01:15 <Diablo-D3> is
1236 2011-02-07 16:01:16 <Diablo-D3> shit
1237 2011-02-07 16:01:18 <Diablo-D3> its shit.
1238 2011-02-07 16:01:21 <jrabbit> Diablo-D3: ++
1239 2011-02-07 16:01:21 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: so is Jira
1240 2011-02-07 16:01:25 <jrabbit> I hate bugzilla
1241 2011-02-07 16:01:32 <Diablo-D3> yeah fuck you luke
1242 2011-02-07 16:01:35 <Diablo-D3> jira > bguzilla
1243 2011-02-07 16:01:47 <jrabbit> bugzilla barely works for mozilla
1244 2011-02-07 16:02:15 <luke-jr> http://flyspray.org/
1245 2011-02-07 16:02:16 <jrabbit> I like google code's tasks for larger projects and trac
1246 2011-02-07 16:02:38 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Jira is just a proprietary rewrite of Bugzilla. They work the same.
1247 2011-02-07 16:02:58 <jrabbit> looks sexier
1248 2011-02-07 16:03:00 <gavinandresen> Anybody here know anything about berkeley db releases?  Like is there any good reason to compile against 4.8 (or 5.1) versus 4.7?
1249 2011-02-07 16:03:15 <Diablo-D3> yes, except jira doesnt make me want to kill jira developers
1250 2011-02-07 16:03:21 <luke-jr> lol
1251 2011-02-07 16:03:43 <luke-jr> Launchpad's bug tracker is pretty nice, but I think that's proprietary too
1252 2011-02-07 16:03:47 <Diablo-D3> I have at least one bugzilla developer in my freezer
1253 2011-02-07 16:03:48 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: dude
1254 2011-02-07 16:03:49 <Diablo-D3> fuck you
1255 2011-02-07 16:03:53 <Diablo-D3> you've never coded a day in your life
1256 2011-02-07 16:03:58 <luke-jr> lol
1257 2011-02-07 16:03:59 <Diablo-D3> you've never had to debug shit
1258 2011-02-07 16:04:02 <tcatm> gavinandresen: do we link bdb static? then stay with 4.7 for now to maintain compatibility
1259 2011-02-07 16:04:04 <Diablo-D3> or write bug reports that make sense
1260 2011-02-07 16:04:07 <Diablo-D3> or do anything useful, ever
1261 2011-02-07 16:04:13 <Diablo-D3> your life is full of boring pointless events
1262 2011-02-07 16:04:15 <gavinandresen> tcatm: yeah, that's my inclination.
1263 2011-02-07 16:04:17 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: fail
1264 2011-02-07 16:04:24 <Diablo-D3> if you think ANYTHING launchpad does is good
1265 2011-02-07 16:04:27 <Diablo-D3> you fail at life forever
1266 2011-02-07 16:04:47 <Diablo-D3> launchpad is worse than bugzilla, which was long theorized to be impossible
1267 2011-02-07 16:04:55 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: are you a Jira employee?
1268 2011-02-07 16:05:02 <jrabbit> Diablo-D3: ++ launchpad is annoying
1269 2011-02-07 16:05:14 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: no
1270 2011-02-07 16:05:18 <luke-jr> you sound like one
1271 2011-02-07 16:05:20 <Diablo-D3> but at least jira supports open source
1272 2011-02-07 16:05:22 <jrabbit> mostly because ubuntu and bzr stuff uses it
1273 2011-02-07 16:05:27 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: whatever that means
1274 2011-02-07 16:05:30 <Diablo-D3> I dont see launchpad supporting anything but microsoft linux
1275 2011-02-07 16:05:43 <jrabbit> hm?
1276 2011-02-07 16:05:48 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you're blind then
1277 2011-02-07 16:05:57 <jrabbit> microsoft linux? lol wat
1278 2011-02-07 16:06:03 <Diablo-D3> jrabbit: ubuntu == microsoft linux
1279 2011-02-07 16:06:04 <luke-jr> jrabbit: aka Ubuntu
1280 2011-02-07 16:06:06 <jrabbit> you mean mono patent creep?
1281 2011-02-07 16:06:08 <Diablo-D3> yes
1282 2011-02-07 16:06:09 <jrabbit> oh.
1283 2011-02-07 16:06:13 <jrabbit> :|
1284 2011-02-07 16:06:28 <luke-jr> but not only Ubuntu uses Launchpad
1285 2011-02-07 16:06:53 <Diablo-D3> jira is free for open source projects
1286 2011-02-07 16:07:00 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: free? or gratis?
1287 2011-02-07 16:07:03 <Diablo-D3> for example, redhat/jboss has a jira instance
1288 2011-02-07 16:07:07 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: free, not libre
1289 2011-02-07 16:07:17 <luke-jr> libre isn't an English word. free is.
1290 2011-02-07 16:07:23 <luke-jr> gratis is.
1291 2011-02-07 16:07:33 <Diablo-D3> I dont give a shit if something is open source if it WORKS
1292 2011-02-07 16:07:38 <Diablo-D3> and jira works
1293 2011-02-07 16:07:39 <jrabbit> ^^
1294 2011-02-07 16:07:46 <luke-jr> Jira works as well as Bugzilla
1295 2011-02-07 16:07:59 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1296 2011-02-07 16:08:00 <Diablo-D3> bullshit, it works a shitload better
1297 2011-02-07 16:08:02 <jrabbit> thats the diff between an ideologue and a designer
1298 2011-02-07 16:08:19 <luke-jr> I use both regularly. They're about the same.
1299 2011-02-07 16:08:34 <jrabbit> designer might be the wrong word, I don't know if I have a good word for having expectations of decent stuff
1300 2011-02-07 16:09:01 <luke-jr> jrabbit: Launchpad is (IIRC) just as non-free as Jira
1301 2011-02-07 16:09:10 <Diablo-D3> launchpad is even less free-er
1302 2011-02-07 16:09:15 <Diablo-D3> its closed source AND you cant install it
1303 2011-02-07 16:09:35 <luke-jr> just making the point that I'm talking about usability, not freeness
1304 2011-02-07 16:09:51 <luke-jr> obviously, I would prefer something free like maybe Flyspray
1305 2011-02-07 16:10:01 <luke-jr> but I don't use Flyspray enough to know how well it works
1306 2011-02-07 16:10:10 <luke-jr> it just looks pretty :P
1307 2011-02-07 16:10:22 <Diablo-D3> at least with jira you can get a license for it and install it on your own fucking shit
1308 2011-02-07 16:10:34 <Diablo-D3> you know what happens when shuttlecock runs out of money?
1309 2011-02-07 16:10:37 <Diablo-D3> launchpad dies
1310 2011-02-07 16:10:45 <Diablo-D3> there goes all your bugs, all your work, all your shit
1311 2011-02-07 16:10:48 <Diablo-D3> gone
1312 2011-02-07 16:10:59 <Diablo-D3> atlassia goes under? nothing changes for all the jira users.
1313 2011-02-07 16:11:34 slush has joined
1314 2011-02-07 16:12:26 <luke-jr> s/all/some/
1315 2011-02-07 16:12:29 darkskiez_ has joined
1316 2011-02-07 16:12:56 <luke-jr> all the companies I work with that use Jira, use their hosted solution
1317 2011-02-07 16:14:04 <Diablo-D3> eww, I wasnt aware anyone went for that unless they were really small companies
1318 2011-02-07 16:14:26 <Diablo-D3> you know, the kind that cant afford to hire real sysadmins
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1320 2011-02-07 16:19:12 <tcatm> gavinandresen: I'm currently looking at trac as roadmap/bugtracker. It also has a wiki so we could keep important things like protocol specs in one place
1321 2011-02-07 16:20:15 <gavinandresen> the wiki and git issues seems to be working pretty well so far.
1322 2011-02-07 16:20:32 * luke-jr concurs.
1323 2011-02-07 16:20:37 <gavinandresen> (wiki for roadmap seems like it aught to work)
1324 2011-02-07 16:20:40 <luke-jr> at least with the wiki part
1325 2011-02-07 16:20:50 <luke-jr> we already have forums too :p
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1328 2011-02-07 16:36:40 <nanotube> tcatm: yay, new seednode list merged :)
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1336 2011-02-07 17:05:36 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 150000 158
1337 2011-02-07 17:05:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 158, is 1 hour, 15 minutes, and 24 seconds
1338 2011-02-07 17:23:42 altamic has joined
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1353 2011-02-07 18:23:17 <Necr0s> Is there a way to have the bitcoin GUI client automatically start in RPC mode, like via the config file instead of having to specify the command-line option?
1354 2011-02-07 18:24:10 <jgarzik> Necr0s: all command line options may be specified in the configuration file
1355 2011-02-07 18:24:27 <Necr0s> win
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1357 2011-02-07 18:30:51 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1358 2011-02-07 18:32:02 <slush1> ;;any m0mchil
1359 2011-02-07 18:32:03 <gribble> m0mchil was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 hours, 16 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: *** m0mchil <m0mchil!~m0mchil@unaffiliated/m0mchil> has quit IRC ()
1360 2011-02-07 18:40:30 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1366 2011-02-07 19:15:48 <comboy> any of you guys have some experience with 5970 by MSI?
1367 2011-02-07 19:18:13 <midnightmagic> sounds expensive.
1368 2011-02-07 19:18:58 altamic has joined
1369 2011-02-07 19:19:22 <comboy> expensive? not really, I'm just worried about opinions about that company, and some rumors it's heating more than for example HIS
1370 2011-02-07 19:20:12 <comboy> I mean not expensive compared to other manufacturers of the same card, I don't say 5970 ain't expensive :)
1371 2011-02-07 19:24:24 <midnightmagic> :-)
1372 2011-02-07 19:24:56 <midnightmagic> forge some new territory. pretty much everyone I'm aware of has sapphire and/or powercolor.
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1384 2011-02-07 19:45:23 * genjix pokes MT`AwAy
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1389 2011-02-07 19:55:42 <comboy> midnightmagic: for 5870 I had sapphire asus and powercolor, seems that for some reason powercolor seems most noisy, but maybe it depends on the luck
1390 2011-02-07 19:56:23 <ArtForz> there shouldnt be a difference
1391 2011-02-07 19:56:38 <ArtForz> watch out for XFX 5870s, they have weaker fans
1392 2011-02-07 19:56:45 <comboy> oh
1393 2011-02-07 19:56:47 <comboy> thanks for warning
1394 2011-02-07 19:56:54 <comboy> ArtForz: and you tested MSI too maybe?
1395 2011-02-07 19:56:59 <slush1> ArtForz: XFX 5970 is fine?
1396 2011-02-07 19:57:17 slush1 is now known as slush
1397 2011-02-07 19:57:26 <ArtForz> got 2 MSI 5970s, no problems
1398 2011-02-07 19:57:27 slush has quit (Changing host)
1399 2011-02-07 19:57:27 slush has joined
1400 2011-02-07 19:57:53 <ArtForz> the only "bad" 5970s I got are the newish sapphires
1401 2011-02-07 19:57:55 <comboy> thanks a lot for info :)
1402 2011-02-07 19:58:08 <ArtForz> they seem to have a way bigger variance OC-wise
1403 2011-02-07 19:58:40 <ArtForz> pretty much all older 5970s seem to be able to get > 830
1404 2011-02-07 19:58:57 <slush> agree, my saphire is also quite poor
1405 2011-02-07 19:59:02 <ArtForz> mostly in the 830-850 range
1406 2011-02-07 19:59:07 <ArtForz> for the new sapphires it's anywhere from 780 to 890
1407 2011-02-07 19:59:16 <comboy> btw, I only heard some on our btc forum, but they have stopped producing 5970 already, right?
1408 2011-02-07 19:59:27 <ArtForz> from what I heard, yes
1409 2011-02-07 19:59:56 <comboy> and 6990 is something for exchange?
1410 2011-02-07 20:00:05 <ArtForz> yep, 6990 is successor
1411 2011-02-07 20:00:12 <comboy> I dont get why dont want to sell more 5970, there's clearly a market for them
1412 2011-02-07 20:00:20 <ArtForz> though it'll probably be worse for bitcoin mining
1413 2011-02-07 20:00:33 <ArtForz> I guess not enough of a market to warrant keeping production active
1414 2011-02-07 20:01:08 <slush> I hope there will be more 5970 in bazaars when 6990 arrive to shops
1415 2011-02-07 20:01:25 <comboy> slush: I'm hoping for the same
1416 2011-02-07 20:01:26 <ArtForz> yeah, there'll probably be quite a few NOS and used cards
1417 2011-02-07 20:01:44 <comboy> those gamers just want the shinest one
1418 2011-02-07 20:02:11 <ArtForz> yep
1419 2011-02-07 20:02:12 <presence> like it will matter when artforz puts his farm up
1420 2011-02-07 20:02:15 * presence runs
1421 2011-02-07 20:02:20 <ArtForz> and for 3D 6990 should *rape* 5970
1422 2011-02-07 20:02:23 <comboy> I dont get what do they need 5970 for, seriously, I believe some experiment could be conducted to prove them they cannot notice difference actually with lower gpu :)
1423 2011-02-07 20:03:31 <ArtForz> crossfire scaling for 5xxx was never that impressive, and the driver support was spotty, for quite a few games 5870 was *faster* than 5970
1424 2011-02-07 20:03:37 * slush thinks about install some game and finally try his 5970 in action
1425 2011-02-07 20:03:52 <ArtForz> and for dual 5970 AKA quadfire... total suck
1426 2011-02-07 20:04:04 <comboy> hah, was wondering about the same :) it's just that I would have to install windows first
1427 2011-02-07 20:04:09 <ArtForz> iirc average less than 20% faster than single 5970
1428 2011-02-07 20:04:17 <presence> heh
1429 2011-02-07 20:04:25 <presence> teh suck in gamerspeak
1430 2011-02-07 20:04:31 <ArtForz> yep
1431 2011-02-07 20:04:34 <comboy> :)
1432 2011-02-07 20:04:38 <ArtForz> from the reviews and benchmarks so far, looks like 69xx scales a lot better
1433 2011-02-07 20:04:56 <presence> 20% increase in performance for 400% increase in heat and power usage (or more)
1434 2011-02-07 20:05:01 <ArtForz> iirc 6970 x2 was about 70% faster than single 6970
1435 2011-02-07 20:05:04 <slush> btw who spend money on 5970s for gaming??
1436 2011-02-07 20:05:17 <ArtForz> *crickets*
1437 2011-02-07 20:05:23 <comboy> :))
1438 2011-02-07 20:05:38 <ArtForz> my fastest card before bitcoin was a 4870
1439 2011-02-07 20:06:25 <ArtForz> hrrrm... actually... seen any 3-/quadfire benches for 69xx ?
1440 2011-02-07 20:06:41 <comboy> ha, about bitcoin, kinda maybe private question, but ArtForz can you tell how much % of generated bitcoins, if any, have you sold?
1441 2011-02-07 20:07:10 <ArtForz> roughly 83%
1442 2011-02-07 20:07:17 <comboy> abouth those zilion-fires, they advertise those 4x5970 put one next to each other, I dont know how they expect it to work
1443 2011-02-07 20:07:22 <comboy> WOW
1444 2011-02-07 20:07:25 <presence> that still leaves him with most of a majority :D
1445 2011-02-07 20:07:42 <comboy> 83%?
1446 2011-02-07 20:07:50 <ArtForz> well, 83% of my generation
1447 2011-02-07 20:07:54 <comboy> wow that changes my bitcoin world inside my head
1448 2011-02-07 20:07:59 <ArtForz> = since july, sold about 235k, stockpiled 50k
1449 2011-02-07 20:08:09 <comboy> shit
1450 2011-02-07 20:08:17 <comboy> I should buy btc
1451 2011-02-07 20:08:24 <comboy> more, I mean
1452 2011-02-07 20:08:42 <comboy> because I imagined that you kept most waiting for it to raise
1453 2011-02-07 20:08:47 <ArtForz> nah
1454 2011-02-07 20:08:51 <comboy> so I thought any time you decide to finally selling them
1455 2011-02-07 20:08:57 <comboy> btc value will go sooo down
1456 2011-02-07 20:09:25 lfm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1457 2011-02-07 20:09:30 <comboy> so like some risk but you are also quite calm investor
1458 2011-02-07 20:09:50 <comboy> I mean you got your benefit for investing in these card early and you have it no matter what happens to btc market
1459 2011-02-07 20:09:56 lfm has joined
1460 2011-02-07 20:10:01 <ArtForz> yep
1461 2011-02-07 20:10:09 <cosurgi> slush: how is it going with cheatproof stuff?
1462 2011-02-07 20:10:12 <presence> whatever life they may have remaining :D
1463 2011-02-07 20:10:14 <ArtForz> I originally targeted selling 75%, stockpiling the rest
1464 2011-02-07 20:10:18 <comboy> I'm a bit scared how easily it is manipulated (btc price) currently
1465 2011-02-07 20:10:32 <slush> cosurgi: just started today, came back from job before an hour
1466 2011-02-07 20:10:33 <ArtForz> the recent price jump kinda changed that % a bit
1467 2011-02-07 20:10:42 <comboy> :)
1468 2011-02-07 20:10:43 <cosurgi> slush: ok :)
1469 2011-02-07 20:10:46 <slush> cosurgi: I also talked with my brother and he like your solution :)
1470 2011-02-07 20:11:03 <cosurgi> slush: thanks :) how about Raul ?
1471 2011-02-07 20:11:13 <slush> he didn't respond me yet
1472 2011-02-07 20:11:19 <cosurgi> slush: he is not on irc, maybe on forum? ok.
1473 2011-02-07 20:11:50 <comboy> respect for you ArtForz for jumping in so early with confidence
1474 2011-02-07 20:11:58 <slush> cosurgi: I wrote him PM
1475 2011-02-07 20:12:02 <comboy> I need to get back to work so I can buy more hardware
1476 2011-02-07 20:12:06 <comboy> thanks for all infos
1477 2011-02-07 20:12:17 <ArtForz> np
1478 2011-02-07 20:12:34 <cosurgi> slush: good. I have an imporession, that pool generates more blocks since you have hidden stats. May be just a random effect.
1479 2011-02-07 20:13:26 <slush> cosurgi: I'm pretty sure it is random effect
1480 2011-02-07 20:13:33 <cosurgi> :)
1481 2011-02-07 20:13:42 <slush> cosurgi: I'm immunite to this variance
1482 2011-02-07 20:13:51 Vladimir has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1483 2011-02-07 20:14:19 <slush> cosurgi: two times I updated pool with big changes. Two times pool had very bad rounds for long time
1484 2011-02-07 20:14:41 <cosurgi> ok.
1485 2011-02-07 20:14:42 <slush> cosurgi: I was very scared that I broke something. But it was always just random effect ;)
1486 2011-02-07 20:15:29 sabalaba has joined
1487 2011-02-07 20:15:50 <cosurgi> slush: You will need to update "How does it work?" section. You could just write: "(50 BTC) * (shares score of user's workers) / (total shares score in current round)" instead of current line. And add another line, with the formula for score.
1488 2011-02-07 20:16:08 <slush> cosurgi: I know
1489 2011-02-07 20:16:21 <cosurgi> slush: of course :-)
1490 2011-02-07 20:16:22 <slush> cosurgi: if everything will be OK, I released new version with counting score
1491 2011-02-07 20:16:32 <slush> cosurgi: but accounting will be on the old system
1492 2011-02-07 20:16:47 <slush> cosurgi: then, after few rounds, I'll pick some random users and calculate variance for their reward
1493 2011-02-07 20:16:57 <slush> cosurgi: if it will be reasonable, then switch algorithm
1494 2011-02-07 20:17:00 <cosurgi> slush: good approach.
1495 2011-02-07 20:17:47 <cosurgi> slush: look at CPU miners. They like to complain :)
1496 2011-02-07 20:18:28 <cosurgi> slush: in fact you could wait one whole day before switching, then you will see a variance over longer period of time.
1497 2011-02-07 20:18:56 <cosurgi> slush: or lack of variance, if reward is summed over longer period of time.
1498 2011-02-07 20:19:15 <slush> cosurgi: I'll probably wait at least two days
1499 2011-02-07 20:19:29 <cosurgi> slush: good :)
1500 2011-02-07 20:19:30 <slush> cosurgi: Also because I have to find energy to explain to all users which will PM me ;)
1501 2011-02-07 20:19:53 <cosurgi> slush: prepare a template PM with explanations :)
1502 2011-02-07 20:20:14 <slush> hehe, I'll probably prepare FAQ section on site
1503 2011-02-07 20:20:19 <cosurgi> yeah :)
1504 2011-02-07 20:20:28 <andrew12> hm
1505 2011-02-07 20:20:42 <andrew12> you need to install libglib2.0-dev (debian) or bitcoin won't build. that's not in the readme
1506 2011-02-07 20:20:52 <andrew12> s/the readme/build-unix.txt/
1507 2011-02-07 20:21:16 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1508 2011-02-07 20:23:44 <cosurgi> I wonder if BTC price will go down. That's weird - I bought a new PC with expectation that it will pay out around end of febrauary, and it already paid out. But I didn't sell any BTC yet :)
1509 2011-02-07 20:24:39 <cosurgi> moreover, before BTC price went up, the block difficulty went up, and I changed my expectation that it will pay out on march.
1510 2011-02-07 20:24:50 <cosurgi> weird stuff happens here.
1511 2011-02-07 20:25:09 <andrew12> cosurgi: of course it went up. bitcoin got more popular. :P
1512 2011-02-07 20:25:31 <cosurgi> I would buy another PC, but I have problems with stacking it somewhere.
1513 2011-02-07 20:27:35 <cosurgi> I was browsing some random website about free art for making games, and there I saw it "we accept bitcoin", surprise!
1514 2011-02-07 20:27:35 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1515 2011-02-07 20:27:58 <citiz3n> what's the GPU clock speed tweak utility of choice these days
1516 2011-02-07 20:28:00 <citiz3n> for windows
1517 2011-02-07 20:28:02 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1518 2011-02-07 20:28:15 * cosurgi didn't use windows since 1999
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1520 2011-02-07 20:30:30 <andrew12> hm
1521 2011-02-07 20:30:37 <andrew12> how many blocks are there in the new testnet so far?
1522 2011-02-07 20:30:58 akem has left ("Leaving")
1523 2011-02-07 20:30:58 <andrew12> my client is saying 0
1524 2011-02-07 20:31:05 <andrew12> ;;bc,calcd 1000 1
1525 2011-02-07 20:31:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 1 hour, 11 minutes, and 34 seconds
1526 2011-02-07 20:32:54 <jgarzik> andrew12: there are blocks out on the new testnet.  it took a while for my 0.3.20-prebuild to pick them up, the first time after the reset, locally.
1527 2011-02-07 20:33:19 <andrew12> oic
1528 2011-02-07 20:35:06 prax has joined
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1530 2011-02-07 20:35:44 <andrew12> should probably wait till my client is actually saying it has some blocks before i try to mine
1531 2011-02-07 20:35:49 <andrew12> only 6 connections :(
1532 2011-02-07 20:37:38 <andrew12> it's probably nodes frmo the other testnet
1533 2011-02-07 20:37:39 <andrew12> heh
1534 2011-02-07 20:38:27 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1539 2011-02-07 20:44:26 <jgarzik> chuckle.  the forum grew a 'Mining' category when I wasn't looking.
1540 2011-02-07 20:45:07 <andrew12> heh
1541 2011-02-07 20:53:12 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
1542 2011-02-07 20:54:04 <andrew12> ;;bc,blocks
1543 2011-02-07 20:54:04 <gribble> 106781
1544 2011-02-07 20:54:12 <andrew12> oh wee
1545 2011-02-07 20:54:51 <andrew12> only got 26000 :P
1546 2011-02-07 20:56:14 <andrew12> still no blocks on testnet
1547 2011-02-07 20:57:38 <andrew12> hm
1548 2011-02-07 20:58:01 <andrew12> is bitcoin supposed to take a lot of cpu when it's downloadingthe block chain initially?
1549 2011-02-07 20:58:21 <tcatm> yes
1550 2011-02-07 20:58:24 <andrew12> or is it just because i'm running both clients
1551 2011-02-07 20:58:25 <andrew12> ok
1552 2011-02-07 20:58:30 <tcatm> it needs to verfiy blocks
1553 2011-02-07 20:58:37 <andrew12> that's what i thought
1554 2011-02-07 20:59:10 <gavinandresen> andrew12: 0.3.20 testnet?
1555 2011-02-07 20:59:16 <andrew12> yes
1556 2011-02-07 20:59:31 <gavinandresen> Let me see if my testnet node is running...
1557 2011-02-07 20:59:42 <andrew12> got 10 connections now
1558 2011-02-07 20:59:46 <andrew12> still no blocks
1559 2011-02-07 21:00:19 <tcatm> mhm I should re-open my testnet port
1560 2011-02-07 21:00:28 <tcatm> somehow my router forgot all NAT settings
1561 2011-02-07 21:00:32 <gavinandresen> If they're all 0.3.19 testnet nodes then their blocks are invalid for you
1562 2011-02-07 21:00:47 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1563 2011-02-07 21:00:47 <andrew12> yeah
1564 2011-02-07 21:01:09 <andrew12> should've changed the magic number or something :P
1565 2011-02-07 21:01:48 <tcatm> btw, "errors" : "WARNING: Displayed transactions may not be correct!  You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade."
1566 2011-02-07 21:02:01 <tcatm> Is this expected behaviour? I can't do anything over RPC because of that error.
1567 2011-02-07 21:02:30 <gavinandresen> Yeah, bitcoin knows something wonky is going on because nobody else is accepting your blocks.
1568 2011-02-07 21:02:57 <tcatm> How many blocks does your testnet show?
1569 2011-02-07 21:03:19 <gavinandresen> I just restarted a testnet bitcoind that has 829 blocks
1570 2011-02-07 21:03:22 <andrew12> http://pastie.org/1538355
1571 2011-02-07 21:03:32 <andrew12> gavinandresen: is it a public node? :)
1572 2011-02-07 21:03:42 <andrew12> got something i can -addnode?
1573 2011-02-07 21:04:01 <gavinandresen> Try -testnet -addnode=96.240.197.31
1574 2011-02-07 21:04:38 <lyspooner> how many "interesting" chains are there?
1575 2011-02-07 21:04:51 <gavinandresen> three
1576 2011-02-07 21:05:14 Guest___ has joined
1577 2011-02-07 21:05:45 <gavinandresen> tcatm: your client is in "safe mode"; there's a command-line switch to turn it off.
1578 2011-02-07 21:05:52 <midnightmagic> Geez you guys, it's not like ArtForz's going to completely overrun the network with his new chips. :)
1579 2011-02-07 21:06:25 nelisky has joined
1580 2011-02-07 21:10:19 <midnightmagic> besides, you should be thankful people are going to that effort; with all the investment in the network, farms like art's are what will keep it secure.
1581 2011-02-07 21:10:22 <andrew12> ahh
1582 2011-02-07 21:10:27 <andrew12> got 830 blocks on testnet now
1583 2011-02-07 21:10:38 <midnightmagic> "old" or "new" testnet?
1584 2011-02-07 21:10:47 <andrew12> new
1585 2011-02-07 21:10:50 <gavinandresen> andrew12: lemme know if you want some new testnet coins
1586 2011-02-07 21:11:04 <gavinandresen> (I think tcatm has more than me right now though)
1587 2011-02-07 21:11:24 <tcatm> I have only 206 blocks
1588 2011-02-07 21:11:40 <andrew12> i'm gonna mine for them
1589 2011-02-07 21:11:45 <gavinandresen> Who generated the 800 blocks then?  Hmm.....
1590 2011-02-07 21:11:58 <lyspooner> 3 blocks just found on #bitcoin-monitor?
1591 2011-02-07 21:12:08 <tcatm> No idea. I had my GPUs running on new testnet for a while
1592 2011-02-07 21:12:12 <andrew12> damn
1593 2011-02-07 21:12:35 <gavinandresen> (oh, right, it might've been me, I forgot I was running a couple of wallets....)
1594 2011-02-07 21:12:41 <midnightmagic> i *did* have a bunch of testnet coins.. what's the current number.. lemme see.. "balance" : 103600.83000000,
1595 2011-02-07 21:13:51 <tcatm> I sold about 40k testnet coins of old network (before reset was announced)
1596 2011-02-07 21:13:53 <lyspooner> slush: was that your pool in that triple-header
1597 2011-02-07 21:14:01 <lyspooner> smells like a cartel
1598 2011-02-07 21:14:20 <andrew12> tcatm: nice! how much btc did you get?
1599 2011-02-07 21:14:25 <tcatm> 20
1600 2011-02-07 21:14:30 <midnightmagic> i'm still not quite grokking why the reset had to switch to a new genesis block.
1601 2011-02-07 21:14:36 molecular has joined
1602 2011-02-07 21:15:02 <andrew12> midnightmagic: because it would link back to the old one
1603 2011-02-07 21:15:18 <slush> lyspooner: no
1604 2011-02-07 21:15:18 <tcatm> midnightmagic: to see what happens when we change the genesis block
1605 2011-02-07 21:15:54 <midnightmagic> i liked the old testnet, :-P
1606 2011-02-07 21:16:13 <lyspooner> how far apart were those three blocks?
1607 2011-02-07 21:16:13 <gavinandresen> We didn't HAVE to.  There are various hacks we could have added to the code... but resetting with new genesis block is cleanest solution
1608 2011-02-07 21:16:14 <andrew12> the testnet will probably be improved a few more times
1609 2011-02-07 21:16:32 <andrew12> because eventually it will get back to where it was
1610 2011-02-07 21:18:54 <lyspooner> can i add a timestamp to these conversations?  i am using chatzilla
1611 2011-02-07 21:19:03 <tcatm> looks like my testnode doesn't want to sync with gavin's node
1612 2011-02-07 21:19:21 <lyspooner> got it
1613 2011-02-07 21:19:37 hundfred has joined
1614 2011-02-07 21:21:26 <midnightmagic> i think the old testnet is still hanging on..
1615 2011-02-07 21:21:43 <nanotube> heh... hope it keeps hanging on, cuz i got a bunch of old testnet coins hehe
1616 2011-02-07 21:22:03 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1617 2011-02-07 21:22:32 <midnightmagic> yeah me too. :-) time to fork!
1618 2011-02-07 21:22:43 <nanotube> so what, is the .20 release out now?
1619 2011-02-07 21:22:59 <tcatm> nanotube: still missing windows builds
1620 2011-02-07 21:23:05 <nanotube> ah ic
1621 2011-02-07 21:23:06 <midnightmagic> i'm running head from the git tree, but i have no idea whether it's an official release.
1622 2011-02-07 21:23:25 <tcatm> midnightmagic: which git tree?
1623 2011-02-07 21:23:27 <nanotube> yea i'm running a recent git build on the -otc node
1624 2011-02-07 21:24:19 <midnightmagic> tcatm: the one listed on the bitcoin.org website. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
1625 2011-02-07 21:24:37 <tcatm> midnightmagic: that's the official integration tree
1626 2011-02-07 21:24:52 Teppy has left ()
1627 2011-02-07 21:25:33 <midnightmagic> integration means a lot of different things. I am assuming when you guys use that term, you mean it is some kind of mix-net which you use to merge patches prior to committing to the "real" tree, which as I understand it is a subversion repo somewhere else?
1628 2011-02-07 21:25:46 ForceMajeure has joined
1629 2011-02-07 21:27:13 <gavinandresen> Yeah, I copied the git integration commits to the subversion tree at sourceforge this morning-- that's the 0.3.20 release candidate.
1630 2011-02-07 21:27:37 <gavinandresen> svn == stable,  git == integration/testing
1631 2011-02-07 21:28:14 <midnightmagic> i wish the svn tree were listed as prominently as the github. "Development is hosted at Github."
1632 2011-02-07 21:28:22 <tcatm> may testnode receives blocks from gavin but doesn't re-org. strange
1633 2011-02-07 21:28:37 <tcatm> my*
1634 2011-02-07 21:28:48 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic:  listed as prominently where?
1635 2011-02-07 21:28:59 <midnightmagic> on the front page where github is listed. :)
1636 2011-02-07 21:29:23 <gavinandresen> Ah!  I didn't know sirius had changed that....
1637 2011-02-07 21:29:28 <midnightmagic> but it's not really that important. i understand the difference..
1638 2011-02-07 21:30:15 <tcatm> maybe it would be good to switch to git only
1639 2011-02-07 21:30:37 <midnightmagic> would make mirroring a lot easier.
1640 2011-02-07 21:31:14 mtgox has joined
1641 2011-02-07 21:31:26 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: … why is svn used at all?
1642 2011-02-07 21:31:29 <gavinandresen> Suggest it on the forums, see if anybody complains they 'can't' run git for some reason.....
1643 2011-02-07 21:31:41 <midnightmagic> that looks like where satoshi first hosted it.
1644 2011-02-07 21:31:52 <Diablo-D3> if they cant run git, they need to quit playing with themselves at night
1645 2011-02-07 21:31:57 <luke-jr> lol
1646 2011-02-07 21:32:38 Raulo has joined
1647 2011-02-07 21:32:55 <lyspooner> how does blockexplorer list block 106784 at 21:04:51 and block 106785 at 21:04:40?  Can someone walk me through this?
1648 2011-02-07 21:33:11 <Raulo> slush: I've just read your PM and here I am
1649 2011-02-07 21:33:14 <Diablo-D3> because time is relative.
1650 2011-02-07 21:33:32 <tcatm> lyspooner: clock in miners are different
1651 2011-02-07 21:33:43 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin allows blocks from the future
1652 2011-02-07 21:33:47 <Diablo-D3> thats a clear example of it
1653 2011-02-07 21:33:50 <gavinandresen> It DOES seem odd that you can build on a block with time T when your local time is T-something.....
1654 2011-02-07 21:33:59 <Diablo-D3> not odd at all
1655 2011-02-07 21:34:13 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is not overly sensitive to time
1656 2011-02-07 21:34:20 <lyspooner> is there a timestamp limit where the network says whoa
1657 2011-02-07 21:34:22 <Diablo-D3> and it accepts large cluster time dynamics
1658 2011-02-07 21:34:22 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: bitcoin does NOT allow blocks from the past
1659 2011-02-07 21:34:40 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: except all blocks are in the past.
1660 2011-02-07 21:34:51 <gavinandresen> It may not BE odd, but it SEEMS odd.  I understand there are good reasons for it.
1661 2011-02-07 21:35:30 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: block 2 cannot have a timestamp older than block 1
1662 2011-02-07 21:35:32 <ArtForz> bitcoin DOES allow blocks from the past
1663 2011-02-07 21:35:33 <ArtForz> yes
1664 2011-02-07 21:35:53 <ArtForz> block X can't have a timestamp earlier than median of block X-1 to X-11
1665 2011-02-07 21:36:34 <luke-jr> I recall reading otherwise in the source…
1666 2011-02-07 21:36:40 <ArtForz> you recall wrong
1667 2011-02-07 21:36:52 <midnightmagic> and also, Tonal sucks!
1668 2011-02-07 21:36:57 <midnightmagic> sorry, that was mean.
1669 2011-02-07 21:37:05 <Diablo-D3> yeah what ArtForz said
1670 2011-02-07 21:37:12 <luke-jr> I also recall reading code that sets a minimum timestamp of lastBlockTS +1 on your own blocks
1671 2011-02-07 21:37:21 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: no, it just makes you sound intolerant and stupid ☺
1672 2011-02-07 21:37:25 <ArtForz> read the source again, more carefully this time
1673 2011-02-07 21:37:33 <midnightmagic> i retract my apology! :-P
1674 2011-02-07 21:37:53 <ArtForz> it's "block timestamp has to be >= medianPrevBlockTS + 1"
1675 2011-02-07 21:38:04 <gavinandresen> Do people often tell you "Read the Source, Luke"  ?
1676 2011-02-07 21:38:13 <ArtForz> and medianPrevBlockTS is ... median of prev 11 block timestamps
1677 2011-02-07 21:38:14 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: about once every 2 weeks or so
1678 2011-02-07 21:38:21 <gavinandresen> (yeah, I figured)
1679 2011-02-07 21:38:26 <Diablo-D3> rtsl == win
1680 2011-02-07 21:38:29 <luke-jr> "Luke, I am your father" is about every other day
1681 2011-02-07 21:39:19 <ArtForz> well, with that nick its kinda tempting
1682 2011-02-07 21:39:43 <luke-jr> :p
1683 2011-02-07 21:39:51 <luke-jr> I should rename myself to TonalMan
1684 2011-02-07 21:40:02 <luke-jr> except that would only fit here really
1685 2011-02-07 21:41:03 jav has joined
1686 2011-02-07 21:41:06 <tcatm> gavinandresen: is davout's genesis block the same as the patch you made?
1687 2011-02-07 21:41:46 <gavinandresen> Nope
1688 2011-02-07 21:42:01 <tcatm> that might explain why my testnode has trouble syncing
1689 2011-02-07 21:42:08 <andrew12> heh
1690 2011-02-07 21:42:14 <gavinandresen> Yeah, you're in your own little private block chain world
1691 2011-02-07 21:42:37 <andrew12> tcatm has over 9000 bitcoins! but he's the only one! :p
1692 2011-02-07 21:42:46 <tcatm> no, only 850
1693 2011-02-07 21:42:53 <andrew12> t'was a joke
1694 2011-02-07 21:42:58 <andrew12> :p
1695 2011-02-07 21:43:31 <lyspooner> "little private block chain world" = chainedgirls.com (accepts BTC)
1696 2011-02-07 21:43:59 <andrew12> should add (NSFW) to that
1697 2011-02-07 21:46:23 * tcatm adds 8.3 Mhash/s to new testnet
1698 2011-02-07 21:46:35 * luke-jr adds 265 MH/s
1699 2011-02-07 21:46:41 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
1700 2011-02-07 21:46:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106787 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 60 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 8 hours, 2 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25874.30499243
1701 2011-02-07 21:46:48 <luke-jr> maybe in 8 hours :x
1702 2011-02-07 21:47:00 <tcatm> block found :)
1703 2011-02-07 21:47:03 <luke-jr> running out of time to find my first block :/
1704 2011-02-07 21:47:13 <tcatm> I wish mainnet was that fast
1705 2011-02-07 21:48:07 <andrew12> I would hope so!
1706 2011-02-07 21:48:08 <tcatm> also this test shows that mining on cpu and gpu does not influence gpu hashrate
1707 2011-02-07 21:48:30 <andrew12> well that makes sense
1708 2011-02-07 21:48:47 <tcatm> even though the CPU no mine at 8.4 Mhash/s and have to verify all found GPU hashes again
1709 2011-02-07 21:49:00 <tcatm> s/no//
1710 2011-02-07 21:49:29 <luke-jr> what CPU mines 8.4 MH/s?
1711 2011-02-07 21:50:24 genjix has joined
1712 2011-02-07 21:50:53 <tcatm> 3x semprom 140
1713 2011-02-07 21:51:21 <luke-jr> 3 CPUs?
1714 2011-02-07 21:51:40 <luke-jr> or 3 cores?
1715 2011-02-07 21:54:31 <andrew12> should make #bitcoin-monitorTEST
1716 2011-02-07 21:55:47 <Diablo-D3> sempron 140 is a single core athlon II dual core package.
1717 2011-02-07 21:56:17 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1718 2011-02-07 21:56:49 <andrew12> ;;bc,blocks
1719 2011-02-07 21:56:50 <gribble> 106790
1720 2011-02-07 21:56:56 <andrew12> kewl I have them all
1721 2011-02-07 21:58:36 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1722 2011-02-07 21:59:26 <EvanR-work> can the price on mtgox at some past date be determined
1723 2011-02-07 22:00:10 alystair has joined
1724 2011-02-07 22:01:32 <andrew12> EvanR-work: some sites have history... pretty sure mtgox doesn't keep data beyond 2 days, but i've been wrong before
1725 2011-02-07 22:01:52 <EvanR-work> be careful prefixing shit with 'im pretty sure that' lol
1726 2011-02-07 22:02:12 <EvanR-work> guess it might turn into one of those 'i could care less' sort of things
1727 2011-02-07 22:02:29 genjix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1728 2011-02-07 22:02:47 <tcatm> luke-jr: 3 cpus
1729 2011-02-07 22:03:16 <tcatm> EvanR-work: bitcoincharts.com? ;)
1730 2011-02-07 22:03:37 <andrew12> that
1731 2011-02-07 22:04:30 <EvanR-work> tcatm: example, i know i mined coins on day X three months ago. 'how much were they worth back then'
1732 2011-02-07 22:04:48 <tcatm> see chart ;)
1733 2011-02-07 22:05:04 <EvanR-work> during the day trades happen, what do you do, take the average?
1734 2011-02-07 22:05:31 darkskiez_ has joined
1735 2011-02-07 22:05:49 poseidon_ is now known as poseidon
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1748 2011-02-07 22:15:50 genjix has joined
1749 2011-02-07 22:16:57 <genjix> dssdsd
1750 2011-02-07 22:17:06 <genjix> someone speak plz :p
1751 2011-02-07 22:17:23 <dirtyfilthy> sup
1752 2011-02-07 22:17:37 <genjix> thanks
1753 2011-02-07 22:18:13 Raulo has joined
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1761 2011-02-07 22:29:11 genjix has joined
1762 2011-02-07 22:31:05 <andrew12> hmm
1763 2011-02-07 22:31:14 <andrew12> does anyone know if http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/TEST/ is on the new testnet?
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1773 2011-02-07 22:38:54 <andrew12> well, if you've got (new) testnet btc, and you don't have a use for it, send it to mqZk2gxAEpoyfeCfN6rGxvKPpyEgmRWzZX :)
1774 2011-02-07 22:39:54 citiz3n has quit ()
1775 2011-02-07 22:40:29 chaord has joined
1776 2011-02-07 22:40:53 <chaord> has anyone tried to get bitcoind working on an ARM processor by chance?
1777 2011-02-07 22:41:21 <chaord> not generating or anything, but just functioning as a wallet
1778 2011-02-07 22:41:44 <tcatm> no, but I'd like a binary :)
1779 2011-02-07 22:42:42 <tcatm> IIRC there's someone on the forum using ARM
1780 2011-02-07 22:43:31 <chaord> hmm...yah, i wish i knew who that person was ;)
1781 2011-02-07 22:44:05 <tcatm> teknohog was his name (or something like that)
1782 2011-02-07 22:44:09 <chaord> there's so many posts on the forum now, i couldn't even seem to find any discussion about it due to the term "arm" showing up in words like "warm"
1783 2011-02-07 22:44:18 <chaord> ok, i'll check it out...thanks tcatm
1784 2011-02-07 22:44:19 <tcatm> what kind of arm cpu do you have?
1785 2011-02-07 22:44:42 <chaord> well...none right now...was going to try to virtualize one for starters
1786 2011-02-07 22:44:55 <chaord> for a small project
1787 2011-02-07 22:45:22 mtgox has joined
1788 2011-02-07 22:45:59 <doublec> chaord: bitcoind works fine on an N900 which is ARM
1789 2011-02-07 22:46:27 <doublec> chaord: see here http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2125.0
1790 2011-02-07 22:46:58 <jgarzik> ARM-little-endian, I guess?  There are little endian assumptions in the bitcoin C++ code.
1791 2011-02-07 22:47:05 <doublec> jgarzik: yes
1792 2011-02-07 22:48:47 molecular has joined
1793 2011-02-07 22:48:48 <Raulo> There is a Nokia N900 port and this is ARM http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2125
1794 2011-02-07 22:49:40 <Raulo> Sorry. Have't seen a reply.
1795 2011-02-07 22:49:57 <Raulo> I would like to have a MIPS port to run a bitcoin server on my openwrt router
1796 2011-02-07 22:50:07 <tcatm> Mhm. Illegal Instruction :)
1797 2011-02-07 22:50:26 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1798 2011-02-07 22:51:40 <luke-jr> Raulo: just build it.
1799 2011-02-07 22:51:57 <Raulo> Yes. I know :)
1800 2011-02-07 22:52:23 <doublec> tcatm: the n900 binary doesn't run in scratchbox's arm emulation btw
1801 2011-02-07 22:52:36 <Raulo> If I build it, I'll let you know
1802 2011-02-07 22:52:39 <andrew12> hmm, the original motorola droid has an ARM processor, right?
1803 2011-02-07 22:52:51 <luke-jr> andrew12: practically all smartphones are ARM
1804 2011-02-07 22:52:54 <doublec> so I don't know how well an arm build in general will run under virtualisation (qemu, which scratchbox uses, for example)
1805 2011-02-07 22:53:07 <tcatm> doublec: tried running it on my ARM box
1806 2011-02-07 22:53:50 <andrew12> <3 cyanognmod
1807 2011-02-07 22:54:08 <andrew12> http://cl.ly/4Rfj
1808 2011-02-07 22:54:48 <tcatm> hm. I'd like a full debian-like os on my android phone
1809 2011-02-07 22:55:00 <andrew12> it's possible to install debian
1810 2011-02-07 22:55:26 <tcatm> I don't want to loose android.
1811 2011-02-07 22:56:38 <andrew12> partition your sd card :)
1812 2011-02-07 22:56:43 <andrew12> http://cl.ly/4Qfo -- this is weird
1813 2011-02-07 22:56:54 <tcatm> any good howto?
1814 2011-02-07 22:57:08 <andrew12> tcatm: which android do you have?
1815 2011-02-07 22:57:14 <andrew12> and is it rooted?
1816 2011-02-07 22:57:14 <tcatm> 2.3
1817 2011-02-07 22:57:22 <andrew12> tcatm: which model ;)
1818 2011-02-07 22:57:22 <tcatm> yes
1819 2011-02-07 22:57:32 <tcatm> motorola droid/milestone
1820 2011-02-07 22:57:39 <andrew12> same here :o)
1821 2011-02-07 22:58:01 <tcatm> so how do I install debian?
1822 2011-02-07 22:58:19 <luke-jr> ./bitcoind getbalance '*' -1 # should show generation immediately, yes?
1823 2011-02-07 22:58:21 <andrew12> i don;t know, i haven't done it myself, but i know its possible
1824 2011-02-07 22:58:30 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
1825 2011-02-07 22:58:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106798 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 49 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 hours, 32 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25921.15298960
1826 2011-02-07 22:58:36 <andrew12> http://www.saurik.com/id/10
1827 2011-02-07 22:58:40 <andrew12> heh
1828 2011-02-07 22:59:08 <slush> O.O almost diff 26000
1829 2011-02-07 22:59:22 <andrew12> that's for the G1 though, no idea if it works for milestone as well
1830 2011-02-07 23:00:19 <andrew12> i kinda wanna try it too
1831 2011-02-07 23:02:58 <tcatm> I'd be happy with full bash and vim (and sshd)
1832 2011-02-07 23:03:19 nevezen has joined
1833 2011-02-07 23:03:52 <andrew12> tcatm: apparently http://www.saurik.com/id/10 does indeed work with the milestone
1834 2011-02-07 23:04:27 <andrew12> #android-root :p
1835 2011-02-07 23:06:25 zylche has quit (Quit: zylche)
1836 2011-02-07 23:06:41 <luke-jr> slush: the difficulties aren't really decimal numbers, you know?
1837 2011-02-07 23:07:03 <slush> I see
1838 2011-02-07 23:07:37 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1839 2011-02-07 23:08:14 <slush> what is current difficulty in tonal?
1840 2011-02-07 23:08:37 <andrew12> heh
1841 2011-02-07 23:10:31 <luke-jr> 10292 ?
1842 2011-02-07 23:11:02 <slush> nice. Which font I have to install to display it?
1843 2011-02-07 23:11:23 <luke-jr> any font with Tonal numbers
1844 2011-02-07 23:11:49 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/education/tonal/glyphs/fonts/Luxi/LuxiTonal.ttf is the simplest Tonal-only font
1845 2011-02-07 23:12:06 <slush> thanks
1846 2011-02-07 23:12:28 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
1847 2011-02-07 23:13:00 <luke-jr> I suppose that algorithm could be used for tonal difficulty. I was just converting the "bits"
1848 2011-02-07 23:13:02 <chaord> doublec: thanks for the responses...sorry for the delay (was on the phone)
1849 2011-02-07 23:13:11 <chaord> doublec: i'll check out those threads
1850 2011-02-07 23:13:54 <tcatm> andrew12: do you know of a good backup solution for android (rooted)?
1851 2011-02-07 23:14:28 <luke-jr> if we use the same number, it would be (in Tonal) 55.7811615 or so
1852 2011-02-07 23:16:46 <andrew12> tcatm: rsync? ;)
1853 2011-02-07 23:16:51 <andrew12> or use clockworkmod
1854 2011-02-07 23:17:52 <andrew12> woo 1014 testnet blocks
1855 2011-02-07 23:18:06 * andrew12 still hasn't generated any
1856 2011-02-07 23:18:41 * andrew12 closes some stuff and waits to see if there's any change
1857 2011-02-07 23:18:49 <andrew12> should probably try mining on my desktop under linux
1858 2011-02-07 23:18:57 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1859 2011-02-07 23:19:29 <andrew12> actually, i am going to do that. brb
1860 2011-02-07 23:19:57 mtgox has joined
1861 2011-02-07 23:20:06 <tcatm> I hate googles new javasript interface
1862 2011-02-07 23:21:43 <andrew12> haha me too
1863 2011-02-07 23:22:34 EvanR-work has quit (Changing host)
1864 2011-02-07 23:22:34 EvanR-work has joined
1865 2011-02-07 23:24:52 <tcatm> Just figured out how to disable it
1866 2011-02-07 23:25:50 <andrew12> running miner for testnet on my desktop now :D
1867 2011-02-07 23:26:17 <andrew12> hmm
1868 2011-02-07 23:26:22 <andrew12> its only getting about 400kh/s
1869 2011-02-07 23:26:33 <tcatm> what cpuß
1870 2011-02-07 23:26:34 <tcatm> ?
1871 2011-02-07 23:26:36 <andrew12> p4
1872 2011-02-07 23:26:49 <tcatm> that's not much
1873 2011-02-07 23:26:54 <andrew12> my mac (core 2 duo) is only getting <400/core
1874 2011-02-07 23:27:11 <andrew12> 2 threads
1875 2011-02-07 23:27:13 <doublec> my n900 phone gets 150
1876 2011-02-07 23:27:24 <andrew12> yeah, which is pretty ridiculous
1877 2011-02-07 23:27:33 <doublec> pretty sure my core due macbook was getting 700 or so per core
1878 2011-02-07 23:27:37 <tcatm> a semprom 140 (cheapest single core AMD cpu) does 2874 khash/s
1879 2011-02-07 23:27:47 <andrew12> my macbook is from 2007
1880 2011-02-07 23:27:59 <doublec> mine is too - 1st gen x86 model
1881 2011-02-07 23:28:16 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
1882 2011-02-07 23:28:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106802 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 45 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 hours, 58 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25926.94266362
1883 2011-02-07 23:28:24 <andrew12> could it be that i'm mining to a server outside of lan?
1884 2011-02-07 23:28:27 <doublec> andrew12: running linux on it though - don't know if it makes a difference
1885 2011-02-07 23:28:36 zylche has joined
1886 2011-02-07 23:28:37 <andrew12> doublec: it probably does :p
1887 2011-02-07 23:28:44 <andrew12> might try installing arch on here
1888 2011-02-07 23:28:52 <andrew12> for lolz
1889 2011-02-07 23:28:54 <doublec> could be. also this isn't using the getwork stuff - just mining via the gui
1890 2011-02-07 23:29:02 <doublec> it's arch I used on mine
1891 2011-02-07 23:29:18 <andrew12> \o/ what wm do you use?
1892 2011-02-07 23:29:41 <doublec> I run a gnome desktop
1893 2011-02-07 23:29:50 <andrew12> interesting
1894 2011-02-07 23:30:00 <doublec> I used to run xmonad
1895 2011-02-07 23:30:11 <luke-jr> does wx actually look decent on GNOME?
1896 2011-02-07 23:30:25 <doublec> but I the apps I use aren't very compatible with xmonad
1897 2011-02-07 23:30:42 <doublec> luke-jr: looks fine to me but I'm not fussy about UI looks
1898 2011-02-07 23:31:13 <andrew12> going to try puddinpops miner
1899 2011-02-07 23:33:07 <andrew12> omg
1900 2011-02-07 23:33:09 <andrew12> i hate zip files
1901 2011-02-07 23:34:56 citiz3n has joined
1902 2011-02-07 23:35:19 <citiz3n> this is a bummer - haven't gotten the miner to work on windows server 2008 yet
1903 2011-02-07 23:35:30 <citiz3n> when installing radeon drivers, it says opencl is not supported
1904 2011-02-07 23:35:30 <citiz3n> :(
1905 2011-02-07 23:37:21 <citiz3n> hopefully a complete uninstall of ati stuff and complete reinstall will do the trick
1906 2011-02-07 23:37:55 chuck251 has joined
1907 2011-02-07 23:38:26 <andrew12> citiz3n: it might not have a compatible card
1908 2011-02-07 23:38:29 <andrew12> for cl
1909 2011-02-07 23:38:41 <citiz3n> the card is a 5870
1910 2011-02-07 23:39:32 <citiz3n> it'll be a real bummer if i can't get it working
1911 2011-02-07 23:39:43 <citiz3n> this server has two slots for my 5870s
1912 2011-02-07 23:39:51 <andrew12> hmm
1913 2011-02-07 23:41:45 <andrew12> getting about 450kh/s on my mac w/ 1 thread instead of two
1914 2011-02-07 23:44:53 <andrew12> yay my desktop generated 1 testnet bitcoin!
1915 2011-02-07 23:44:58 <andrew12> er 50* lol
1916 2011-02-07 23:45:08 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1917 2011-02-07 23:45:11 <doublec> quick, sell it!
1918 2011-02-07 23:45:17 <doublec> before testnet becomes invalid again
1919 2011-02-07 23:45:26 <midnightmagic> yeah i'm not cool with the regenesis. :)
1920 2011-02-07 23:46:02 <andrew12> doublec: the new testnet.
1921 2011-02-07 23:46:16 <midnightmagic> but i recognise that my viewpoint is somewhat irrelevant. :)
1922 2011-02-07 23:46:32 <doublec> we need names for 'new testnet' and friends
1923 2011-02-07 23:46:52 <midnightmagic> there's nothing that says we can't name a hash chain we want bitcoind to participate in..
1924 2011-02-07 23:46:56 <doublec> to avoid "I have 5 testnet coins". "Oh old testnet". "No new testnet". "New new testnet, or old new testnet"?
1925 2011-02-07 23:47:04 <andrew12> hahah
1926 2011-02-07 23:47:15 <andrew12> how about "0.3.20" testnet
1927 2011-02-07 23:47:30 * midnightmagic contemplates a patch which will preserve his old testnet computational effort.
1928 2011-02-07 23:47:42 <andrew12> midnightmagic: impossible
1929 2011-02-07 23:48:01 <andrew12> new testnet has a new genesis block
1930 2011-02-07 23:48:19 <andrew12> so unless you wanna have two chains, it isn't possible.
1931 2011-02-07 23:48:28 <midnightmagic> not so. one instance of bitcoind can be patched to participate only in a network which is explicitly designated as such by the suffixing of the IRC channels, genesis blocks, and subdirectories.
1932 2011-02-07 23:49:11 <midnightmagic> externalizing the genesis block and testnet "rules" would allow the reconfiguration and generation of new chains by anyone who wants to start them.
1933 2011-02-07 23:49:56 <midnightmagic> ah, I see, you are actually agreeing with my assessment. sorry, i guess there's a bit of a delay going on with my responses. :)
1934 2011-02-07 23:50:22 mtgox has joined
1935 2011-02-07 23:50:28 <midnightmagic> i wonder if it could be built into bitcoind itself, to participate actively in two chains simultaneously.
1936 2011-02-07 23:50:55 <citiz3n> i think im going to paint a replica of the sistine chapel by michelangelo on my ceiling while 2008 server reboots
1937 2011-02-07 23:51:06 <midnightmagic> and by "could" i of course mean, "could easily"
1938 2011-02-07 23:51:50 <midnightmagic> satoshi's posted idea of simultaneous chain mining might be rolled into that also.
1939 2011-02-07 23:52:10 <citiz3n> what is simultaneous chain mining?
1940 2011-02-07 23:52:50 <midnightmagic> for something like bitDNS, satoshi was understandably unwilling to split the CPU power between bitcoin proper and bitDNS, so he posted a clever way of mining for two targets simultaneously...
1941 2011-02-07 23:53:05 <citiz3n> ahhh
1942 2011-02-07 23:53:06 <midnightmagic> one was just of an "easier" difficulty than the other.
1943 2011-02-07 23:54:07 <midnightmagic> perhaps "unwilling" isn't the correct word. it's more like a "let's find a way to accommodate everybody, the most efficiently"
1944 2011-02-07 23:54:30 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1945 2011-02-07 23:55:39 <midnightmagic> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1790.msg28696#msg28696 and http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1790.msg28715#msg28715
1946 2011-02-07 23:57:02 sabalaba has joined