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6 2011-02-08 00:19:05 <nanotube> midnightmagic: yea i've also been thinking that we can have bitcoin read data from a conf file about a block chain. the conf file would contain some seednodes, a genesis block, block chain rules (diff adjustments, btc per block, reward adjustments, etc)
7 2011-02-08 00:23:24 <andrew12> that'd be nifty
8 2011-02-08 00:23:57 <luke-jr> nanotube: sounds complex. for what gain?
9 2011-02-08 00:24:12 <nanotube> for the gain of easily starting alternative block chains.
10 2011-02-08 00:24:14 <nanotube> for testing, e.g.
11 2011-02-08 00:24:38 <luke-jr> I'm not sure the gains outweigh the complexity. ;)
12 2011-02-08 00:24:53 <luke-jr> you'd need to create an expression compiler/interpreter for the adjustments
13 2011-02-08 00:24:54 <nanotube> extra complexity would be approximately zero.
14 2011-02-08 00:25:09 <nanotube> s/hardcodedvalues/valuesfromtxtfile/
15 2011-02-08 00:25:11 <nanotube> and you're good to go
16 2011-02-08 00:25:20 <luke-jr> except these things are hard coded *algorithms*
17 2011-02-08 00:25:41 <nanotube> we don't need to go into expression interpreter
18 2011-02-08 00:25:47 <nanotube> if we rely on existing algos, and just feed them values.
19 2011-02-08 00:26:45 <nanotube> diff adjustment: s/2016/somethingelse/. reward per block: s/50/somethingelse/, reward reduction: s/half/somethingelse, etc.
20 2011-02-08 00:26:48 <andrew12> http://codepad.org/muEVIgIj
21 2011-02-08 00:26:52 <nanotube> we don't need to come up with new algos
22 2011-02-08 00:27:14 bittertea has joined
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25 2011-02-08 00:27:33 <slush> midnightmagic is there any further discussion about merging two chains while mining?
26 2011-02-08 00:27:41 <slush> Looks nice, but I've no idea how it might work
27 2011-02-08 00:27:54 <luke-jr> slush: O.o
28 2011-02-08 00:28:11 <tcatm> slush: nanotube and I had discussion about that a while ago
29 2011-02-08 00:28:30 <luke-jr> hum
30 2011-02-08 00:28:31 <tcatm> i.e. how to do it in practice
31 2011-02-08 00:28:35 <slush> ...When both networks have different merkle and so
32 2011-02-08 00:28:45 <slush> tcatm: well, if it is doable, it is definitely interesting
33 2011-02-08 00:28:48 da2ce7 has joined
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35 2011-02-08 00:28:48 da2ce7 has joined
36 2011-02-08 00:28:57 <tcatm> do we have searchable irclogs?
37 2011-02-08 00:29:16 <slush> nice tests of this might be mining on mainnet and testnet at once ;)
38 2011-02-08 00:29:31 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
39 2011-02-08 00:29:37 <tcatm> no it wouldn't work like that
40 2011-02-08 00:29:56 <slush> that means, both networks (protocol) have to know about that
41 2011-02-08 00:30:15 <tcatm> it's a little bit more complex (but needs little or no code change)
42 2011-02-08 00:30:25 <nanotube> tcatm: yes we do...
43 2011-02-08 00:30:40 <tcatm> nanotube: where?
44 2011-02-08 00:30:45 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
45 2011-02-08 00:30:46 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.9,"low":0.83,"vol":2264,"buy":0.8614,"sell":0.89,"last":0.89}}
46 2011-02-08 00:30:47 <slush> ok, I'm busy right now
47 2011-02-08 00:30:54 <nanotube> tcatm: iirc when you cycle the channel, bcbot spits a url at you
48 2011-02-08 00:30:54 <slush> but sounds interesting to me
49 2011-02-08 00:31:09 <tcatm> hmm no search field?
50 2011-02-08 00:31:14 Kiba has joined
51 2011-02-08 00:31:58 <slush> is the main point to support more merkle hashes?
52 2011-02-08 00:32:08 <slush> no, it won't work
53 2011-02-08 00:32:18 <slush> ok, let it be, back to the job :)
54 2011-02-08 00:32:26 <tcatm> no, add one more merkle hash with two branches: bitcoin and other net
55 2011-02-08 00:32:43 * Kiba wrote a bitcoin story
56 2011-02-08 00:32:49 <slush> oh
57 2011-02-08 00:33:14 <nanotube> tcatm: ah... yea you probably get to feed google a search string like "site:<thaturl> <your search string>"
58 2011-02-08 00:33:53 <tcatm> does not work :/
59 2011-02-08 00:34:24 <nanotube> oh
60 2011-02-08 00:34:25 <nanotube> sucks
61 2011-02-08 00:34:55 <nanotube> tcatm: want me to mail you my personal irc log?
62 2011-02-08 00:35:00 <nanotube> it's a txt file you can grep
63 2011-02-08 00:35:09 <nanotube> we did have a nice discussion that time
64 2011-02-08 00:35:09 <tcatm> how big?
65 2011-02-08 00:35:21 <nanotube> er... let me see. i bet it would be pretty small gzipped :)
66 2011-02-08 00:35:58 <luke-jr> if you merge two blocks, what happens to their generation?
67 2011-02-08 00:35:58 <tcatm> depending on how gzip compresses all those "no coins in x days mined" messages :D
68 2011-02-08 00:36:05 <nanotube> 17.1mb unzipped
69 2011-02-08 00:36:09 <nanotube> haha
70 2011-02-08 00:36:18 <tcatm> luke-jr: merge?
71 2011-02-08 00:36:33 <nanotube> i'll make it a bz2 just in case, tcatm :)
72 2011-02-08 00:36:38 <tcatm> k
73 2011-02-08 00:36:40 <luke-jr> [19:21:20] <slush> midnightmagic is there any further discussion about merging two chains while mining?
74 2011-02-08 00:36:47 <tcatm> Kiba: I might have a job for you :)
75 2011-02-08 00:36:53 <nanotube> 4.1 mb bz2
76 2011-02-08 00:37:20 <slush> luke-jr: what?
77 2011-02-08 00:37:44 <slush> oh i see
78 2011-02-08 00:37:48 <tcatm> 4.1M is good. can you mail it to tcatm@gawab.com?
79 2011-02-08 00:38:06 <Guest___> do all current versions (mac/pc/linux) support gpu? I'm getting ~1000 khash/s on a macbook pro core2duo 2.2ghz sould i restart into boot camp win xp win7? or leave in mac
80 2011-02-08 00:38:20 <nanotube> tcatm: already sending :)
81 2011-02-08 00:38:21 <slush> luke-jr: not merging two bitcoin blocks, but use cpu power to work on two independent chains at once
82 2011-02-08 00:38:35 <luke-jr> oooh
83 2011-02-08 00:38:42 <tcatm> Guest___: you need a special miner, please join #bitcoin-mining for help (or use the forum)
84 2011-02-08 00:38:56 <Guest___> thanks
85 2011-02-08 00:38:57 <luke-jr> I thought you meant, to unify forked chains
86 2011-02-08 00:39:09 <nanotube> tcatm: sent
87 2011-02-08 00:39:59 <luke-jr> Guest___: that sounds about right
88 2011-02-08 00:40:19 <luke-jr> oh, missed the GPU part
89 2011-02-08 00:40:43 <tcatm> yay, mail killed my mua
90 2011-02-08 00:41:24 <tcatm> I really need a new laptop
91 2011-02-08 00:41:53 <Syke> my laptop mines at 100 MH/s :)
92 2011-02-08 00:42:18 <luke-jr> my Radeon mines at 265 MH/s ;)
93 2011-02-08 00:42:24 <luke-jr> in a VM
94 2011-02-08 00:42:25 <slush> btw is there any progress with bitdns? There were big hype before some time...
95 2011-02-08 00:42:32 <tcatm> not for mining. It can't even open a 4.1 GPG encrypted email
96 2011-02-08 00:42:58 jav has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
97 2011-02-08 00:43:04 <tcatm> slush: lack of skilled developers / or time
98 2011-02-08 00:44:00 <slush> and maybe also big eyes
99 2011-02-08 00:44:24 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
100 2011-02-08 00:45:50 <tcatm> slush: http://veritas.maximilianeum.ch/bitcoin/irc/logs/2011/01/27#l691
101 2011-02-08 00:48:07 <slush> thanks
102 2011-02-08 00:48:57 <tcatm> Someone should summarize this channel once a day (if anything important or interesting was discussed)
103 2011-02-08 00:49:10 <andrew12> hehe
104 2011-02-08 00:49:53 mtgox has joined
105 2011-02-08 00:50:25 <lfm> important irc seems like an oxymoron
106 2011-02-08 00:51:33 <tcatm> there are some good discussions from time to time or in-depth answers to repeatin questions
107 2011-02-08 00:56:41 <sgornick> That's actually a great idea -- summary. How about the concept of a hashtag for things that should get summarized.
108 2011-02-08 00:56:41 <sgornick> e.g., after a discussion append a #summary (or some other keywords) so that a person manually perusing the logs (or maybe for creating a "Today in -dev" forum post) knows what not to gloss over.
109 2011-02-08 00:59:02 <tcatm> Good idea.
110 2011-02-08 01:05:02 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
111 2011-02-08 01:05:34 <andrew12> sgornick: or we could make a qdb for that purpose :P
112 2011-02-08 01:05:36 Cusipzzz has joined
113 2011-02-08 01:07:15 <andrew12> err, what's the difference between getblockcount and getblocknumber?
114 2011-02-08 01:08:38 <luke-jr> nothing
115 2011-02-08 01:08:43 <luke-jr> probably one should be deprecated
116 2011-02-08 01:09:49 <andrew12> indeed
117 2011-02-08 01:09:56 <nanotube> tcatm: should i resend without encryption?
118 2011-02-08 01:10:43 <luke-jr> yet another change for RPC v1 :p
119 2011-02-08 01:11:28 <tcatm> nanotube: no worked fine, just took a few minutes to open :)
120 2011-02-08 01:18:34 <Kiba> trading volume so minicule today
121 2011-02-08 01:19:05 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
122 2011-02-08 01:19:30 <tcatm> preparing to crash :)
123 2011-02-08 01:19:45 <Cusipzzz> sell mortimer sell !
124 2011-02-08 01:22:17 * Kiba goes wee
125 2011-02-08 01:24:51 ForceMageure has joined
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127 2011-02-08 01:25:35 ForceMajeure_ has joined
128 2011-02-08 01:25:53 * andrew12 writes some crazy ruby library to access mtgox
129 2011-02-08 01:27:25 <genjix> ;;bc,blocks
130 2011-02-08 01:27:26 <gribble> 106813
131 2011-02-08 01:30:08 sgornick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
132 2011-02-08 01:30:34 sgornick has joined
133 2011-02-08 01:40:29 <dirtyfilthy> andrew12: it'd better be literally crazy. like 1/4000 chance of randomly dumping all your bitcoins on to market at half market price
134 2011-02-08 01:41:44 <andrew12> dirtyfilthy: what?
135 2011-02-08 01:41:57 <dirtyfilthy> you're crazy ruby library
136 2011-02-08 01:42:03 <dirtyfilthy> your
137 2011-02-08 01:42:06 <andrew12> oh
138 2011-02-08 01:42:10 <andrew12> i misread what you said
139 2011-02-08 01:43:05 <andrew12> http://pastie.org/1539235
140 2011-02-08 01:43:22 Xanie has joined
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142 2011-02-08 01:47:00 <dirtyfilthy> insert this line somewhere: sell(balance,rand*2) if rand(4000)==23
143 2011-02-08 01:47:09 <dirtyfilthy> mix it up a little
144 2011-02-08 01:59:37 <andrew12> heh
145 2011-02-08 02:00:36 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
146 2011-02-08 02:00:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106819 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 28 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 hours, 44 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25901.61238963
147 2011-02-08 02:00:43 <andrew12> 3 hours
148 2011-02-08 02:00:52 <andrew12> well 4
149 2011-02-08 02:01:30 <Syke> one of those 28 blocks better be mine!
150 2011-02-08 02:01:42 <andrew12> I know they won't be mine :P
151 2011-02-08 02:02:22 <andrew12> well they might be
152 2011-02-08 02:02:29 * andrew12 runs miners on the mainnet instead of testnet
153 2011-02-08 02:04:05 noagendamarket has joined
154 2011-02-08 02:04:43 <luke-jr> Syke: no, mine!
155 2011-02-08 02:04:54 <luke-jr> I've been going for 4 days ;.;
156 2011-02-08 02:05:00 <Syke> i'll race you
157 2011-02-08 02:05:06 <Syke> i'm clocking in at 860 MH/s
158 2011-02-08 02:05:13 <luke-jr> ;.;
159 2011-02-08 02:05:22 <luke-jr> 265 MH/s is all I can handle
160 2011-02-08 02:05:47 <presence> Has m0mchil uploaded a windows exe of the new poclbm?
161 2011-02-08 02:06:27 genjix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
162 2011-02-08 02:12:14 FAMULUS has joined
163 2011-02-08 02:12:16 <presence> Im getting 281Mh/s from rpcminer, but I cant get diablo's miner to go over 14M and rpcminer to report a hash at all.
164 2011-02-08 02:19:41 <Syke> try smaller 'w' values, like "-w 64" or "-w 128"
165 2011-02-08 02:19:55 <Syke> for diablominer
166 2011-02-08 02:21:02 <citiz3n> for some reason, both GPUs aren't showing up as usable for me
167 2011-02-08 02:21:08 <citiz3n> they are listed in device manager
168 2011-02-08 02:21:15 <citiz3n> but CCC doesn't show them both
169 2011-02-08 02:21:22 <citiz3n> neither does m0mchil's miner :(
170 2011-02-08 02:23:03 <presence> citizen: are they in crossfire?
171 2011-02-08 02:24:15 <presence> hm, 128 and 64 make things worse with diablo's miner
172 2011-02-08 02:24:26 <presence> 512 ands 1024 cause a kernel error
173 2011-02-08 02:24:32 <citiz3n> i have never enabled crossfire
174 2011-02-08 02:24:42 <slush> citiz3n: two 5870?
175 2011-02-08 02:24:44 <citiz3n> and it doesn't even see to be enableable in CCC
176 2011-02-08 02:24:48 <citiz3n> yes slush
177 2011-02-08 02:25:05 <slush> two 5970 never worked in Win for me
178 2011-02-08 02:25:11 <slush> Don't know how two 5870
179 2011-02-08 02:25:21 <citiz3n> yeah
180 2011-02-08 02:25:22 <citiz3n> hmm
181 2011-02-08 02:26:27 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
182 2011-02-08 02:28:25 Guest___ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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185 2011-02-08 02:31:31 <Diablo-D3> ...
186 2011-02-08 02:31:37 <Diablo-D3> presence: you're doing it wrong.
187 2011-02-08 02:31:45 <Diablo-D3> -w 64 is most optimum.
188 2011-02-08 02:33:01 <Diablo-D3> most likely you have your box configured wrong
189 2011-02-08 02:33:33 <afed> when are we going to have a way to run opencl with no x server :(
190 2011-02-08 02:33:41 <Diablo-D3> never.
191 2011-02-08 02:33:46 <ArtForz> we already do
192 2011-02-08 02:33:55 <afed> o
193 2011-02-08 02:34:38 <ArtForz> well, at least if you have another graphics card you can use for primary VGA
194 2011-02-08 02:35:26 <afed> i thought you had to have a display on each gpu you wanted to use
195 2011-02-08 02:35:33 <ArtForz> yes
196 2011-02-08 02:35:42 <Netsniper> -w 64 -r 5 -f 2500
197 2011-02-08 02:35:46 <ArtForz> then hand the radeons to a VM with PCI passthrough
198 2011-02-08 02:36:09 <Diablo-D3> -f over 1000 doesnt make sense
199 2011-02-08 02:36:13 <Netsniper> i dont even know what those options do specificly - i just use them because if i don't, the screen gets bogged down
200 2011-02-08 02:36:15 <Diablo-D3> most people dont even run 1000hz clocks
201 2011-02-08 02:36:16 <afed> ok, that is going the wrong way in terms of complexity
202 2011-02-08 02:36:27 <afed> i want to boil it down to a kernel and ramdisk that PXE boot
203 2011-02-08 02:37:14 <Netsniper> Diablo-D3: if i use a lower value, my video suffers
204 2011-02-08 02:37:19 <ArtForz> err... so?
205 2011-02-08 02:37:20 <Diablo-D3> you're on nvidia?
206 2011-02-08 02:37:29 <ArtForz> what cant a nfs-/ image not run X?
207 2011-02-08 02:37:30 <Netsniper> yes, 8800gt
208 2011-02-08 02:37:32 <Diablo-D3> thats why
209 2011-02-08 02:37:35 <Diablo-D3> nvidia cant be fixed.
210 2011-02-08 02:38:00 <afed> i heard 8800gt cards are terminal cases
211 2011-02-08 02:38:02 <afed> built wrong
212 2011-02-08 02:38:07 <afed> 100% failure rate
213 2011-02-08 02:38:10 <Netsniper> ha
214 2011-02-08 02:38:21 <Netsniper> i ran gpugrid before bitcoin
215 2011-02-08 02:38:24 <ArtForz> actually thats the complete 8xxx and 9xxx generation
216 2011-02-08 02:38:25 <Diablo-D3> thats EVERY nvidia card
217 2011-02-08 02:39:10 <presence> diablo: what should the parms be for an ati-5870? I get 291M/s with m0mchils, but 14M/sec with yours...something is definitely wrong
218 2011-02-08 02:40:43 <Syke> I think my 5870s run with "-w 256 -f 1"
219 2011-02-08 02:41:12 <ArtForz> w > 64 should generally be *slower* for 58xx
220 2011-02-08 02:41:29 <ArtForz> w < 64 is also slower
221 2011-02-08 02:42:00 <presence> w of 64 cut me down to 6M/sec
222 2011-02-08 02:42:45 <ArtForz> wtf
223 2011-02-08 02:42:52 <ArtForz> somethings seriously wrong with your setup
224 2011-02-08 02:43:06 <ArtForz> which devices does diablos miner say it's using?
225 2011-02-08 02:44:53 <presence> well its not entirely wrong since momchils is working as far as hardware goes
226 2011-02-08 02:45:05 <presence> but Im at -f 1000 -w 256 getting 14M
227 2011-02-08 02:45:13 <presence> lemme look at the output
228 2011-02-08 02:46:21 <presence> C:\Program Files (x86)\Bitcoin\DiabloMiner>java -cp target\libs\*;target\DiabloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner -u xxx-p yyy -f 1000 -w 256
229 2011-02-08 02:46:25 <presence> [2/7/11 7:39:10 PM] Started
230 2011-02-08 02:46:28 <presence> [2/7/11 7:39:11 PM] Added Cypress (#1) (20 CU, local work size of 256)
231 2011-02-08 02:46:30 <presence> 15031/14721 khash/sec
232 2011-02-08 02:47:17 ForceMajeure_ is now known as ForceMajeure
233 2011-02-08 02:47:28 <Syke> try -f 1
234 2011-02-08 02:49:06 <ArtForz> is that a 5870 ?
235 2011-02-08 02:49:35 <presence> 5870
236 2011-02-08 02:51:31 <Netsniper> i'm using m0mchils
237 2011-02-08 02:51:50 <presence> ok, with -f 1 it gets an average of 290M but the system is unresponsive
238 2011-02-08 02:51:57 <presence> trying -w 64
239 2011-02-08 02:52:07 <presence> java crashed :(
240 2011-02-08 02:52:59 <presence> -w 64 is about the same, but my system is still laggy :(
241 2011-02-08 02:53:10 <presence> just raising and lowering windows :(
242 2011-02-08 02:59:40 <Diablo-D3> [09:40:15] <presence> [2/7/11 7:39:11 PM] Added Cypress (#1) (20 CU, local work size of 256)
243 2011-02-08 02:59:45 <Diablo-D3> a single 5870?
244 2011-02-08 02:59:51 <Diablo-D3> presence: what driver and sdk
245 2011-02-08 03:00:54 * Kiba gets by with his little ads revenue
246 2011-02-08 03:01:17 <luke-jr> try -f 100 ?
247 2011-02-08 03:01:55 <luke-jr> tbh, I can't use my Radeon if it's mining even with that
248 2011-02-08 03:01:58 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: that wont make it faster.
249 2011-02-08 03:02:01 <luke-jr> I just use my IGP :P
250 2011-02-08 03:04:03 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
251 2011-02-08 03:04:03 noagendamarket has joined
252 2011-02-08 03:04:55 <presence> its a single 5870, yes
253 2011-02-08 03:05:49 <presence> I have the most current drivers and sdk...and although I know that it is not 100% compatible with some miners, m0mchils is giving reasonable results with them without tuning or overclocking
254 2011-02-08 03:06:42 <presence> yours was performing at 5% better, but I couldnt use the machine while it mines, which is a necessity
255 2011-02-08 03:07:10 <Diablo-D3> presence: thats where you went wrong
256 2011-02-08 03:07:21 <andrew12> interesting. my desktop mines the best with the cryptopp_asm32 algo
257 2011-02-08 03:07:21 <Diablo-D3> do not use 11.1 or 10.12, and only use sdk 2.1
258 2011-02-08 03:07:43 <presence> m0mchil's apparently is ok with current with 2.2
259 2011-02-08 03:07:46 <Diablo-D3> its not.
260 2011-02-08 03:07:52 <Diablo-D3> 2.1 is faster with both mine and m0's
261 2011-02-08 03:08:02 <Diablo-D3> and both mine and m0s will run like utter shit on 11.1
262 2011-02-08 03:08:08 <presence> Hmm...
263 2011-02-08 03:08:18 <presence> this is 293M/s with current
264 2011-02-08 03:08:26 <Diablo-D3> thats low
265 2011-02-08 03:08:28 <presence> should I expect a bost of 10% with 10.12?
266 2011-02-08 03:08:33 <ArtForz> wow thats bad
267 2011-02-08 03:08:35 <Diablo-D3> switch to 10.11
268 2011-02-08 03:08:39 <Diablo-D3> and sdk 2.1
269 2011-02-08 03:08:57 <presence> it never hurts to try
270 2011-02-08 03:09:05 <Diablo-D3> presence: you should be able to get past 315
271 2011-02-08 03:09:08 <ArtForz> even m0s old miner got ~310 out of a stock 5870 on a decently set up system
272 2011-02-08 03:09:20 <presence> stock?
273 2011-02-08 03:09:29 <ArtForz> yes, stock
274 2011-02-08 03:09:45 <presence> ok, downloading 10.12 cap2
275 2011-02-08 03:10:03 <Diablo-D3> 10.11.
276 2011-02-08 03:10:05 <andrew12> nini guys
277 2011-02-08 03:10:06 <presence> do I have to do anything special to remove this old/new driver before install?
278 2011-02-08 03:10:08 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
279 2011-02-08 03:10:18 <Diablo-D3> 10.12 has issues for a small percentage of users
280 2011-02-08 03:10:20 <Diablo-D3> cant figure out whyt
281 2011-02-08 03:10:30 <Diablo-D3> its not a horrid fuckup like 11.1 is
282 2011-02-08 03:10:30 <presence> ok, it didnt list 10.11, had to go to the archive
283 2011-02-08 03:11:11 <ArtForz> hmmm... it's ATI, their shit only works on accident
284 2011-02-08 03:11:17 <presence> hahaha
285 2011-02-08 03:11:28 <presence> is there a video manufacturer you dont loathe?
286 2011-02-08 03:11:35 <Diablo-D3> hrm, no
287 2011-02-08 03:11:39 <Diablo-D3> ati is the only one worth buying
288 2011-02-08 03:11:39 <ArtForz> nope
289 2011-02-08 03:11:41 <Diablo-D3> they suck the least
290 2011-02-08 03:11:51 <ArtForz> at least ati makes decent hardware
291 2011-02-08 03:12:09 <presence> is just uninstalling the driver enough, or do I have to scrub?
292 2011-02-08 03:13:09 <ArtForz> I prefer uninstall+scrub, but thats just my general paranoia
293 2011-02-08 03:13:27 <presence> unfortunately, with video drivers its a founded belief
294 2011-02-08 03:13:41 <presence> nvidia asses your system if you dont scrub
295 2011-02-08 03:13:45 <ArtForz> so does ATI
296 2011-02-08 03:14:00 <presence> awesome
297 2011-02-08 03:14:10 <ArtForz> had major issues with a 4870 and 10.5/6/7
298 2011-02-08 03:14:32 <presence> but it gets the windows logo :D
299 2011-02-08 03:15:14 <presence> gots to reboot, brb
300 2011-02-08 03:15:18 FAMULUS has quit (Quit: FAMULUS)
301 2011-02-08 03:21:24 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
302 2011-02-08 03:21:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106833 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 14 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 51 minutes, and 46 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25958.75370955
303 2011-02-08 03:22:23 <luke-jr> if my GPU miner worked with slush's, it should work without, right? :/
304 2011-02-08 03:22:44 <luke-jr> I suppose, I really only have a 50% chance of getting a block in the bc,calc timeframe, don't I? :/
305 2011-02-08 03:22:46 Slix` has joined
306 2011-02-08 03:22:54 <ArtForz> errr... no
307 2011-02-08 03:23:02 <ArtForz> it's about 60% iirc
308 2011-02-08 03:23:23 <ArtForz> 63%
309 2011-02-08 03:23:25 <luke-jr> so I'm just unlucky? :/
310 2011-02-08 03:25:22 <presence> hmm
311 2011-02-08 03:25:31 <presence> it reinstalled sdk 2.3.00
312 2011-02-08 03:25:34 <presence> WTF
313 2011-02-08 03:26:24 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
314 2011-02-08 03:26:25 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106834 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 13 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 43 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25964.40322824
315 2011-02-08 03:26:46 <luke-jr> :\
316 2011-02-08 03:26:51 <luke-jr> gimme one of them plz
317 2011-02-08 03:29:55 dissipate has joined
318 2011-02-08 03:30:04 <dissipate> hello
319 2011-02-08 03:33:09 <Syke> everyone's busy watching to see who gets the last 13 blocks before difficulty increases...
320 2011-02-08 03:36:25 <dissipate> what is the difficulty going up to now?
321 2011-02-08 03:36:47 <luke-jr> 26k
322 2011-02-08 03:37:07 <dissipate> uh oh
323 2011-02-08 03:37:09 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 26000
324 2011-02-08 03:37:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26000, is 4 days, 21 hours, 3 minutes, and 13 seconds
325 2011-02-08 03:37:11 <dissipate> crank up those GPUs
326 2011-02-08 03:37:14 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 265000
327 2011-02-08 03:37:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given current difficulty of 22012.4941572 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 6 minutes, and 5 seconds
328 2011-02-08 03:37:23 <luke-jr> 18 hours extra :/
329 2011-02-08 03:38:18 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
330 2011-02-08 03:38:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106835 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 12 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 35 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25960.47969052
331 2011-02-08 03:46:54 <Syke> Did you know that each time a block is found, an angel gets its wings?
332 2011-02-08 03:47:18 <lfm> syke what are you smokin
333 2011-02-08 03:47:36 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
334 2011-02-08 03:47:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106838 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 9 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 11 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25980.26640211
335 2011-02-08 03:47:40 <luke-jr> 9!
336 2011-02-08 03:47:55 * luke-jr kicks his Radeon
337 2011-02-08 03:48:00 <ArtForz> 362880?
338 2011-02-08 03:50:41 <luke-jr> ?
339 2011-02-08 03:50:56 <ArtForz> 9!
340 2011-02-08 03:51:06 <dissipate> they need to decrease difficulty so 1 block per second is generated
341 2011-02-08 03:51:25 <lfm> dissipate: that'd suck
342 2011-02-08 03:51:26 <ArtForz> impossible
343 2011-02-08 03:52:02 <luke-jr> dissipate: who's "they"?
344 2011-02-08 03:52:04 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
345 2011-02-08 03:52:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106839 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 8 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25987.96938250
346 2011-02-08 03:52:13 <ArtForz> feel free to create a custom test network and watch it blow up spectacularly
347 2011-02-08 03:52:26 <lfm> dissipate: if you want more frequent payouts try a pool
348 2011-02-08 03:52:47 <luke-jr> ⦠and get 50% your overall earnings
349 2011-02-08 03:53:02 <lfm> luke-jr: ?
350 2011-02-08 03:53:59 <dissipate> ArtForz, even on a LAN?
351 2011-02-08 03:54:58 <lfm> dissipate: try it
352 2011-02-08 03:56:49 <ArtForz> with >5 hops distance between furthest nodes it *will* start to diverge
353 2011-02-08 03:56:58 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
354 2011-02-08 03:57:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106839 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 8 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25987.96938250
355 2011-02-08 03:57:12 <luke-jr> ArtForz: you're assuming that's a problem
356 2011-02-08 03:57:29 <luke-jr> all it really means (maybe) is that you need a lot more verifications before you trust it
357 2011-02-08 03:57:37 <lfm> luke-jr: ? did you undrestand what he said?
358 2011-02-08 03:59:44 <presence> hmm...with 10.11 the results are lower.
359 2011-02-08 03:59:53 <presence> Do you have to install SDK 2.1 seperately?
360 2011-02-08 03:59:56 <ArtForz> yes
361 2011-02-08 04:00:02 <presence> ah
362 2011-02-08 04:00:11 <presence> it was integrated with the new drive
363 2011-02-08 04:00:11 <presence> r
364 2011-02-08 04:00:17 <ArtForz> yes
365 2011-02-08 04:03:14 <Kiba> time to cook up some coffee!
366 2011-02-08 04:03:18 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
367 2011-02-08 04:03:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106839 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 8 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25987.96938250
368 2011-02-08 04:08:15 <Syke> ;;bc,stats
369 2011-02-08 04:08:17 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106840 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 7 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 55 minutes and 25 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25975.08125336
370 2011-02-08 04:10:25 bk128 has joined
371 2011-02-08 04:11:17 chaord has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
372 2011-02-08 04:15:16 <luke-jr> ()%*&#%
373 2011-02-08 04:15:23 <luke-jr> just
374 2011-02-08 04:15:25 <luke-jr> one
375 2011-02-08 04:15:27 <luke-jr> block
376 2011-02-08 04:15:28 <luke-jr> plz
377 2011-02-08 04:15:31 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
378 2011-02-08 04:15:33 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106842 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 5 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 39 minutes and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25989.69925085
379 2011-02-08 04:15:41 <luke-jr> aww, difficulty went way up with that one
380 2011-02-08 04:15:49 <luke-jr> and we lost a bunch of ETA
381 2011-02-08 04:16:55 * Kiba slips on caffine
382 2011-02-08 04:17:05 <presence> ugh now getting some error in module stuff
383 2011-02-08 04:17:19 <presence> grr and it hosed my chrome links
384 2011-02-08 04:21:38 <presence> yeah, poclbm is now hosed :(
385 2011-02-08 04:22:01 <ArtForz> what error?
386 2011-02-08 04:23:52 Vladimir has joined
387 2011-02-08 04:31:39 tg has quit (Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number)
388 2011-02-08 04:32:45 tg has joined
389 2011-02-08 04:35:48 <presence> Well, diablos miner works, about 310M/s
390 2011-02-08 04:35:56 <presence> but m0ms is hosed...no version will run now
391 2011-02-08 04:36:08 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
392 2011-02-08 04:36:10 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106843 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 4 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 31 minutes and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25976.96652251
393 2011-02-08 04:36:11 <presence> and rpcminer-opencl runs, but its horrible
394 2011-02-08 04:36:43 <presence> m0ms states that a DLL did not load.
395 2011-02-08 04:38:33 <presence> diablo's works well, but it pretty much makes the system very slow
396 2011-02-08 04:38:38 <presence> probably java's doing
397 2011-02-08 04:40:59 <presence> it looks like its a pyopencl issue
398 2011-02-08 04:41:08 <presence> maybe something in the py2exe packaging
399 2011-02-08 04:43:11 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
400 2011-02-08 04:44:04 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
401 2011-02-08 04:45:13 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
402 2011-02-08 04:45:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106845 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 2 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 15 minutes and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25984.35312908
403 2011-02-08 04:45:20 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
404 2011-02-08 04:45:22 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106845 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 2 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 15 minutes and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25984.35312908
405 2011-02-08 04:46:08 <presence> File "poclbm.py", line 3, in <module>
406 2011-02-08 04:46:09 <presence> File "pyopencl\__init__.pyc", line 3, in <module>
407 2011-02-08 04:49:36 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
408 2011-02-08 04:49:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106846 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 1 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 7 minutes and 55 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25993.78894618
409 2011-02-08 04:50:02 <luke-jr> I want that last block plz
410 2011-02-08 04:50:05 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
411 2011-02-08 04:50:06 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106846 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 1 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 7 minutes and 55 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25993.78894618
412 2011-02-08 04:50:09 <LobsterMan> hehehehehehe
413 2011-02-08 04:51:09 <Netsniper> :/
414 2011-02-08 04:51:29 <Netsniper> i haven't completed a block since september
415 2011-02-08 04:51:37 <LobsterMan> lol
416 2011-02-08 04:51:48 <LobsterMan> my last one was 1-28
417 2011-02-08 04:51:50 <luke-jr> Netsniper: what video card?
418 2011-02-08 04:52:04 <ArtForz> 45 and 43 were mine :P
419 2011-02-08 04:52:05 <ArtForz> ;;bc,stats
420 2011-02-08 04:52:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106847 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 2 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25997.87992881
421 2011-02-08 04:52:18 <luke-jr> noooooooooooooooooooooooooo
422 2011-02-08 04:52:26 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
423 2011-02-08 04:52:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106847 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 2 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25997.87992881
424 2011-02-08 04:52:35 <Netsniper> and i didn't start using my video card until about a month ago
425 2011-02-08 04:52:37 <Netsniper> so...
426 2011-02-08 04:52:55 <LobsterMan> i remember when diff was 1200 and generating via cpu only was actually viable
427 2011-02-08 04:53:05 <Netsniper> right
428 2011-02-08 04:53:08 <ArtForz> 25997.9 it is
429 2011-02-08 04:53:09 <LobsterMan> my first few blocks were from my i7 ^_^
430 2011-02-08 04:53:17 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
431 2011-02-08 04:53:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106847 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25997.87992881
432 2011-02-08 04:53:28 <presence> is there some method to set up diablominer to make it be more friendly to gui usage?
433 2011-02-08 04:53:35 <doublec> i remember thinking what a waste of time generating with the cpu was since it'd take 2-3 weeks on average
434 2011-02-08 04:53:38 <Netsniper> i made about 120 block with cpu only :D
435 2011-02-08 04:53:49 <ArtForz> ghribble is wrong
436 2011-02-08 04:53:57 <LobsterMan> gribble is offby1 or something
437 2011-02-08 04:53:58 <ArtForz> current difficulty already IS 25997.9
438 2011-02-08 04:54:01 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
439 2011-02-08 04:54:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106847 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25997.87992881
440 2011-02-08 04:54:10 * LobsterMan pokes nanotube
441 2011-02-08 04:54:33 <luke-jr> doublec: lol
442 2011-02-08 04:54:42 <ArtForz> yea
443 2011-02-08 04:54:43 <nanotube> sup LobsterMan
444 2011-02-08 04:54:43 <ArtForz> GetNextWorkRequired RETARGET
445 2011-02-08 04:54:43 <ArtForz> nTargetTimespan = 1209600 nActualTimespan = 1024171
446 2011-02-08 04:54:43 <ArtForz> Before: 1b02fa29 000000000002fa29000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
447 2011-02-08 04:54:43 <ArtForz> After: 1b028552 00000000000285529c013f02df1ce0bcfabe9ad89c78b67a5694583472361250
448 2011-02-08 04:54:50 <LobsterMan> nanotube read up a few lines :P
449 2011-02-08 04:55:22 <ArtForz> = we're already mining for the first target 00000000000285529c013f02df1ce0bcfabe9ad89c78b67a5694583472361250 = diff 25997.9 block
450 2011-02-08 04:55:34 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
451 2011-02-08 04:55:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106847 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25997.87992881
452 2011-02-08 04:55:41 <nanotube> LobsterMan: ah yea... well such is life. heh.
453 2011-02-08 04:55:52 <x6763> gribble is reporting the same thing that bitcoin is reporting...it must be reporting the difficulty of the most recent block (which is 22012.49415720)
454 2011-02-08 04:55:55 <nanotube> complain to theymos about his blockexplorer/q
455 2011-02-08 04:56:04 <LobsterMan> hehehe
456 2011-02-08 04:56:06 <nanotube> x6763: ya
457 2011-02-08 04:56:42 <luke-jr> ArtForz: which limit is actually used? The one with the trailing zeros, or the slightly higher one with more precision? :P
458 2011-02-08 04:57:38 <dirtyfilthy> it's put back into compact format
459 2011-02-08 04:57:44 <ArtForz> the second one, with the lower part replaced with zeros
460 2011-02-08 04:57:45 <dirtyfilthy> after the calc
461 2011-02-08 04:58:00 <luke-jr> meh
462 2011-02-08 04:58:20 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
463 2011-02-08 04:58:21 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106847 | Current Difficulty: 22012.4941572 | Next Difficulty At Block: 106847 | Next Difficulty In: 0 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 25997.87992881
464 2011-02-08 04:58:24 <ArtForz> 00000000000285529c013f02df1ce0bcfabe9ad89c78b67a5694583472361250 -> 1b028552 -> 0000000000028552000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
465 2011-02-08 04:58:39 <afed> lol
466 2011-02-08 04:59:34 * Kiba learns a great deal about aging
467 2011-02-08 04:59:48 <Kiba> well how to defeat aging
468 2011-02-08 05:00:20 <Kiba> one proposal is to limit the divison of cells, effectively making cancers uneffective
469 2011-02-08 05:00:25 <Kiba> err
470 2011-02-08 05:00:26 * dirtyfilthy lights another cigarette
471 2011-02-08 05:00:28 <Kiba> non-deadly
472 2011-02-08 05:00:28 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
473 2011-02-08 05:00:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106848 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 2015 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 103992.77869249
474 2011-02-08 05:00:32 <LobsterMan> \o/
475 2011-02-08 05:00:53 <Kiba> cancer grows exponentionally, so it will reach the limit of cell division...FAST
476 2011-02-08 05:01:24 <luke-jr> 103992â¼â¼â¼!
477 2011-02-08 05:01:25 <luke-jr> WTF
478 2011-02-08 05:01:48 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 103992
479 2011-02-08 05:01:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 103992, is 2 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 10 minutes, and 42 seconds
480 2011-02-08 05:02:03 <luke-jr> I better break even in the next 2015 blocks :/
481 2011-02-08 05:02:11 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
482 2011-02-08 05:02:33 <Kiba> so we have an over-dramtic increase in difficulty?
483 2011-02-08 05:02:50 nelisky has joined
484 2011-02-08 05:03:29 <Kiba> how many blocks we're supposed to have every hour?
485 2011-02-08 05:03:38 <dirtyfilthy> 6
486 2011-02-08 05:03:55 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
487 2011-02-08 05:03:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106849 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 2014 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 0 hours, 10 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 103992.77869249
488 2011-02-08 05:04:06 <Kiba> it's 8 blocks per hour
489 2011-02-08 05:04:07 <luke-jr> it's not letting up :x
490 2011-02-08 05:04:24 <Kiba> how come the difficulty jumped to 103992.77...
491 2011-02-08 05:04:32 <x6763> it's an estimate
492 2011-02-08 05:04:42 <x6763> a highly inaccurate one
493 2011-02-08 05:04:50 nelisky has quit (Client Quit)
494 2011-02-08 05:05:13 <x6763> since the difficulty *just* changed, it's only had a few blocks to base this estimate on
495 2011-02-08 05:06:05 <presence> I may just have to take the hit on processing with new drivers and poclbm
496 2011-02-08 05:06:06 <ArtForz> two I think
497 2011-02-08 05:06:09 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
498 2011-02-08 05:06:12 <presence> I cant cope with a sluggish ui
499 2011-02-08 05:07:07 <citiz3n> im having a hell of a time with these ATI 5870s
500 2011-02-08 05:08:01 <citiz3n> they go offline, won't show up again under the miner
501 2011-02-08 05:08:08 <citiz3n> catalyst control center won't start up
502 2011-02-08 05:08:09 <afed> weird :(
503 2011-02-08 05:09:34 <citiz3n> i spent a fortune on this crap - i better be able to get it to work ;P
504 2011-02-08 05:09:47 <afed> no guarantee of that
505 2011-02-08 05:10:12 <afed> but i'll give you 150 btc for each of your used 5870 cards
506 2011-02-08 05:10:43 <prax> 151
507 2011-02-08 05:10:57 <citiz3n> 250 with free shipping
508 2011-02-08 05:11:02 <citiz3n> :)
509 2011-02-08 05:11:13 <afed> 200 shipped
510 2011-02-08 05:11:20 <afed> i don't know if you broke them or not
511 2011-02-08 05:11:27 <afed> you claim not to be able to get them to run
512 2011-02-08 05:11:31 <citiz3n> lol i didn't
513 2011-02-08 05:11:37 <citiz3n> naw i don't want to sell them - i just want them to work
514 2011-02-08 05:11:50 <afed> what's the rest of your setup?
515 2011-02-08 05:12:03 <citiz3n> wel ive got 9 dell computers at work
516 2011-02-08 05:12:14 <citiz3n> not even sure what they are, but they have a PCIe slot
517 2011-02-08 05:12:20 <presence> caps viewer does say I have ATI Stream installed and functional
518 2011-02-08 05:12:22 <citiz3n> so i upgraded the PSUs to nice antec 650 watt
519 2011-02-08 05:12:33 <afed> ok
520 2011-02-08 05:12:36 <citiz3n> popped the card in and everything worked
521 2011-02-08 05:12:36 <afed> that stuff should be adequate
522 2011-02-08 05:12:47 <afed> what's your OS and software?
523 2011-02-08 05:12:47 <citiz3n> but randomly after i closed the miner
524 2011-02-08 05:12:54 <citiz3n> windows 7 pro
525 2011-02-08 05:12:55 <presence> OpenCL 1.0 ATI-Stream-v2.1 (145) - CU: 20 @ 850MHz (GPU)
526 2011-02-08 05:13:01 <citiz3n> m0mchil's miner
527 2011-02-08 05:13:07 <afed> ok
528 2011-02-08 05:13:11 <afed> that's close to what i run
529 2011-02-08 05:13:12 <citiz3n> ive been trying various versions of catalyst and SDK
530 2011-02-08 05:13:14 <afed> win7 and m0mchil
531 2011-02-08 05:13:28 <citiz3n> do you use more than 1 card in any machines?
532 2011-02-08 05:13:34 <afed> i have the last 10.x catalyst that comes with opencl, didn't install any SDK
533 2011-02-08 05:13:41 <citiz3n> ok
534 2011-02-08 05:13:45 <citiz3n> i tried 10.11
535 2011-02-08 05:13:47 <afed> yeah two 5870 cards with the crossfire bridge installed
536 2011-02-08 05:13:56 <afed> i used 10.12 i think
537 2011-02-08 05:13:56 <citiz3n> why the bridge?
538 2011-02-08 05:14:08 <afed> couldn't get it to see both GPUs without the bridge
539 2011-02-08 05:14:14 <citiz3n> ohhh interesting
540 2011-02-08 05:14:20 <afed> i think there is a way but it doesn't make a difference
541 2011-02-08 05:14:23 <citiz3n> did it show both GPUs in device manager
542 2011-02-08 05:14:30 <afed> poclbm shows both devices, that's what counts
543 2011-02-08 05:14:54 <afed> have to run one instance for each opencl device, -d 0 and -d 1
544 2011-02-08 05:15:00 <citiz3n> im getting both GPUs in device manager just fine
545 2011-02-08 05:15:09 <citiz3n> but usually 0 GPUs listed in poclbm
546 2011-02-08 05:15:14 <citiz3n> and CCC won't load anymore
547 2011-02-08 05:15:19 <afed> odd
548 2011-02-08 05:15:22 <citiz3n> maybe ill install that bridge and see how it likes it
549 2011-02-08 05:15:28 <afed> try getting the 11.x catalyst package
550 2011-02-08 05:15:36 <afed> make sure it has opencl on the list of components
551 2011-02-08 05:15:38 <citiz3n> ive spent the night uninstalling, reinstalling, trying a different version, etc etc
552 2011-02-08 05:15:56 <afed> try also updated chipset drivers and what not
553 2011-02-08 05:15:59 <afed> from dell or intel
554 2011-02-08 05:16:02 <afed> start with dell's
555 2011-02-08 05:16:37 <presence> I was told not to get the 11.x package that 10.11 was far better for processing
556 2011-02-08 05:16:47 <presence> and that you want sdk 2.1 and not more current
557 2011-02-08 05:16:53 <afed> i don't know what the basis for that is
558 2011-02-08 05:16:54 <presence> otherwise you get less hash/s
559 2011-02-08 05:17:05 <afed> on windows you don't need the SDK
560 2011-02-08 05:17:08 <presence> Ive tested and so far I cant argue with the results
561 2011-02-08 05:17:15 <afed> at least not if you are running poclbm py2exe
562 2011-02-08 05:17:18 <presence> You need the SDK or you will get poor performance
563 2011-02-08 05:17:38 <afed> i'm getting max performance from my GPUs without the SDK
564 2011-02-08 05:17:40 <afed> on windows
565 2011-02-08 05:17:52 <presence> ok
566 2011-02-08 05:18:20 <afed> the critical part is to get the catalyst package with the opencl drivers included, amd publishes one with and one without
567 2011-02-08 05:18:36 <afed> again, that applies to windows
568 2011-02-08 05:18:45 <afed> on linux i understand the SDK is crucial
569 2011-02-08 05:19:10 <afed> i have a fuckload of windows licenses at my disposal through MSDNAA so that's how i'm rolling
570 2011-02-08 05:19:41 <Syke> I have even more Linux licenses!
571 2011-02-08 05:19:44 Cusipzzz has joined
572 2011-02-08 05:19:45 Cusipzzz has quit (2!~kvirc@c-69-142-104-68.hsd1.nj.comcast.net|Client Quit)
573 2011-02-08 05:20:02 jackmcbarn has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
574 2011-02-08 05:20:21 <Syke> WTS Linux licenses, 10 BTC each, PST.
575 2011-02-08 05:21:28 <LobsterMan> lol
576 2011-02-08 05:21:31 <LobsterMan> i'll sell them for 1btc
577 2011-02-08 05:21:32 <LobsterMan> :P
578 2011-02-08 05:21:48 <nanotube> i'll sell freebsd licenses for 0.
579 2011-02-08 05:21:48 <nanotube> 5
580 2011-02-08 05:21:50 <nanotube> hehe
581 2011-02-08 05:22:04 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
582 2011-02-08 05:23:43 chuck251 has quit ()
583 2011-02-08 05:25:48 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
584 2011-02-08 05:26:47 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
585 2011-02-08 05:26:56 skeledrew has joined
586 2011-02-08 05:27:59 <luke-jr> afed: no Catalyst 10.x has OpenCL included..
587 2011-02-08 05:32:38 <afed> false, 10-12_vista64_win7_64_dd_ccc_ocl.exe
588 2011-02-08 05:32:53 <afed> is the package i used on my mining nodes
589 2011-02-08 05:33:28 <luke-jr> meh
590 2011-02-08 05:33:30 <luke-jr> who uses Windows?
591 2011-02-08 05:33:37 <afed> i uses windows
592 2011-02-08 05:33:50 <ducki2p> bill gates probably
593 2011-02-08 05:34:22 <luke-jr> ducki2p: kinda doubt it
594 2011-02-08 05:34:30 <luke-jr> if he had to use it, it might be decent
595 2011-02-08 05:34:33 <afed> i bet if bill gates built out enough GPU capacity, he could generate all of the bitcoins before the difficulty level could adjust
596 2011-02-08 05:34:58 <luke-jr> afed: impossible
597 2011-02-08 05:35:10 <luke-jr> the adjustment is by block number
598 2011-02-08 05:35:15 <afed> oh yep my bad
599 2011-02-08 05:35:21 <afed> i keep thinking of it as a time interval
600 2011-02-08 05:35:37 <afed> but i know that's wrong
601 2011-02-08 05:35:41 <luke-jr> downward adjustments *should* be
602 2011-02-08 05:36:22 Slix`` has joined
603 2011-02-08 05:39:10 Slix` has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
604 2011-02-08 05:39:22 jackmcbarn has joined
605 2011-02-08 05:43:29 <presence> Ill have to work this ui latency issue tomorrow, Im cooked
606 2011-02-08 05:50:43 <Vladimir> ArtForz: are you around?
607 2011-02-08 05:51:04 <ArtForz> no, why?
608 2011-02-08 05:51:04 <ArtForz> ;)
609 2011-02-08 05:51:17 <Vladimir> just a question :-)
610 2011-02-08 05:51:41 <Vladimir> how much yeld do you lose typically?
611 2011-02-08 05:51:46 <Vladimir> what I mean is
612 2011-02-08 05:52:19 <Vladimir> the calculator gives statistical expectation of blocks being generated for given Ghps
613 2011-02-08 05:52:39 <Vladimir> but it is for an ideal case
614 2011-02-08 05:53:13 <Vladimir> in the real life there are all kinds of issues like network latency, block collisions, reboots, etc...
615 2011-02-08 05:55:21 <Vladimir> so assuming that 100% yield is what given by formula based on difficulty, how much do you manage to get
616 2011-02-08 05:56:14 <ArtForz> got 190 blocks between diff changes, expected... 188
617 2011-02-08 05:56:56 <ArtForz> on average I am pretty exactly on average
618 2011-02-08 05:56:57 <Vladimir> any longer term data?
619 2011-02-08 05:57:06 <Vladimir> ok, thanks
620 2011-02-08 06:02:06 alystair has joined
621 2011-02-08 06:02:15 devon_hillard has joined
622 2011-02-08 06:04:48 <comboy> ;;bc,stats
623 2011-02-08 06:04:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106854 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 2009 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 8 hours, 19 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 37266.60558100
624 2011-02-08 06:07:00 noagendamarket has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
625 2011-02-08 06:14:35 <afed> ll
626 2011-02-08 06:14:53 <midnightmagic> gack, heart attack for a moment. geez gribble should really just say "not enough data to estimate" when it's this close on the heels of a new difficulty..
627 2011-02-08 06:22:57 <jgarzik> some miners might be waiting for the beginning of a new diff, to switch on new GPU power
628 2011-02-08 06:23:32 <Vladimir> why would they do that?
629 2011-02-08 06:23:46 <citiz3n> son of a @%@^*
630 2011-02-08 06:24:01 <citiz3n> i figured out why i was having a lot of these ATI problems
631 2011-02-08 06:24:19 <citiz3n> ATI + windows + no monitor = bad
632 2011-02-08 06:24:23 <Kiba> Hmm
633 2011-02-08 06:24:26 <Kiba> interesting
634 2011-02-08 06:24:31 <citiz3n> ati + windows + monitor (or KVM) = happy
635 2011-02-08 06:24:44 <Kiba> I have a prodigous post rate that is far outpacing second place
636 2011-02-08 06:24:51 <Vladimir> citiz3n: I'll simplify this for you windows = bad
637 2011-02-08 06:25:05 <citiz3n> yes, but it's unavoidable sometimes
638 2011-02-08 06:30:19 <midnightmagic> citiz3n: if you get a DVI<->vga dongle you can run three resistors across six holes and simulate an attached monitor. :)
639 2011-02-08 06:30:47 <presence> ATIs driver condition, well, dogshit comes to mind
640 2011-02-08 06:31:23 <midnightmagic> oh now, it's not that bad. :)
641 2011-02-08 06:31:49 <OneFixt> --Please join me in #bitcoin-bitpenny to test a new instant-payout mining system--
642 2011-02-08 06:39:12 <citiz3n> i hate ATI
643 2011-02-08 06:39:28 <citiz3n> even with monitors attached, it's still not listing my devices properly
644 2011-02-08 06:39:41 <AAA_awright> At least they have working drivers
645 2011-02-08 06:40:17 <citiz3n> i wouldn't call this working
646 2011-02-08 06:40:26 <citiz3n> my next suspicion is that remote desktop has something to do with this
647 2011-02-08 06:40:36 <citiz3n> back down to the basement i go
648 2011-02-08 06:40:39 <citiz3n> :(
649 2011-02-08 06:40:54 <AAA_awright> Nvidia actually shipped my video card I'm using with a VGA out and a DVI out... except the DVI only carries the analog signal, the exact same signal as a VGA cable, no digital whatsoever. Idiots.
650 2011-02-08 06:41:14 <presence> DVI-A
651 2011-02-08 06:41:17 <AAA_awright> Actually I don't even know that much, I haven't gotten it working at all, not on any operating system.
652 2011-02-08 06:41:19 <presence> there is DVI-D and DVI-A
653 2011-02-08 06:41:28 <presence> I havent seen DVI-A for some time
654 2011-02-08 06:41:49 <AAA_awright> DVI-A is for reverse compatibility, you're not supposed to support excusively that
655 2011-02-08 06:42:22 <presence> back in the day, thats all there was
656 2011-02-08 06:42:32 <AAA_awright> DVI-I or DVI-D
657 2011-02-08 06:42:37 <presence> the fact that there is dvi-a on a card today is rediculous
658 2011-02-08 06:42:39 <presence> hah
659 2011-02-08 06:43:40 darkskiez_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
660 2011-02-08 06:43:43 <AAA_awright> presence: DVI-A is for suppoting old monitors on new cards, you're NOT supposed to ship analog-only DVI ports. The fact that this has a single-link digital port sugguests that fact, that it should work.
661 2011-02-08 06:44:02 <AAA_awright> *has the pins for a single-link digital connection
662 2011-02-08 06:46:57 darkskiez_ has joined
663 2011-02-08 06:49:35 <ArtForz> vid card with DVI-A output is just weird
664 2011-02-08 06:52:40 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
665 2011-02-08 06:55:28 <lfm> how old is the card?
666 2011-02-08 06:56:15 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
667 2011-02-08 06:59:02 <prax> 6990 is goign to replace 5970?
668 2011-02-08 06:59:37 <lfm> on the market
669 2011-02-08 06:59:40 xelister has joined
670 2011-02-08 07:00:04 <prax> what u mean?
671 2011-02-08 07:00:21 <prax> oh so not in terms of best fo rmining
672 2011-02-08 07:00:37 <lfm> you prolly would not want to rip out a good 5970 and put in a 6990
673 2011-02-08 07:00:40 <prax> nothing forseeable?
674 2011-02-08 07:00:46 <prax> I got shit now
675 2011-02-08 07:00:51 <prax> trying to plan a system
676 2011-02-08 07:00:56 <prax> to buy in like ~1mo or so
677 2011-02-08 07:01:53 <xelister> presence: ATI DRIVERS ARE WHEN YOU take BULL SHIT, harvest it, feed it to cows, feed the cows to CTHULU and COLLECT HIS SHIT
678 2011-02-08 07:01:55 <lfm> ok so depending what price the 6990 will be it should be good but it might be overpriced
679 2011-02-08 07:02:37 <lfm> xelister: bitter or what?
680 2011-02-08 07:03:06 <prax> think 5970 price would drop?
681 2011-02-08 07:03:14 <xelister> citiz3n: ati sucks a huge donkey cock: on linux desktop with 2 displays switching virtuall displays is GUARANTEED to crash the X on at latest 2nd switching
682 2011-02-08 07:03:35 <ArtForz> disable. KVM.
683 2011-02-08 07:03:38 <xelister> lfm: just experianced with ati's excuse of a software driver. Since year ~2006 (back on windows shit even)
684 2011-02-08 07:03:45 <OneFixt> -- Please join me in #bitcoin-bitpenny to test a new instant-payout mining system. You keep what you mine. --
685 2011-02-08 07:04:37 <lfm> OneFixt: can you give us an executive summary?
686 2011-02-08 07:04:42 <OneFixt> certainly
687 2011-02-08 07:05:06 <OneFixt> Server pays a fixed rate per-share, available to you to withdraw immediately.
688 2011-02-08 07:05:08 <xelister> ArtForz: [ 0.000000] Command line: [...] noquiet nosplash libata.ata_probe_timeout=3 libata.atapi_enable=1 radeon.modeset=0 nomodeset crashkernel=384M-2G:64M,2G-:128M
689 2011-02-08 07:05:32 <OneFixt> www.bitpenny.com
690 2011-02-08 07:05:35 <ArtForz> running fbcon?
691 2011-02-08 07:05:49 <xelister> ArtForz: not sure, it is what is the default for ubuntu
692 2011-02-08 07:05:59 <xelister> didnt fiddled with settings there
693 2011-02-08 07:06:24 <ArtForz> that usually means yes
694 2011-02-08 07:07:04 <xelister> btw on screen #2, the mouse cursor is ALWAYS a random black-and-white 128x128 px image looking like random part of memory. bug + arbitrary memory read exploit?
695 2011-02-08 07:07:22 <xelister> except for the default arrow mouse cursor, this one shows fine
696 2011-02-08 07:07:39 <xelister> good job ati you got that one Ati mouse driver correct like a boss
697 2011-02-08 07:08:20 <ArtForz> oooold problem
698 2011-02-08 07:08:21 <xelister> I think it reads random parts of video memory there.
699 2011-02-08 07:08:29 <ArtForz> that bug's been there at least for 2 years
700 2011-02-08 07:08:30 <ArtForz> yea
701 2011-02-08 07:08:41 <ArtForz> iirc only happens with b/w cursors
702 2011-02-08 07:08:52 <xelister> 1. browse FN 2. use ati drvier 3. put your grandma in front of display #2 with Ati® drivers 4. buy bleach
703 2011-02-08 07:09:02 <lfm> did you try download drivers from ati, they all the same cursors?
704 2011-02-08 07:09:03 <ArtForz> basically HW accel for 1-bit cursor = broken
705 2011-02-08 07:09:13 <ArtForz> has been at least since 8.something
706 2011-02-08 07:09:33 <xelister> good job, just 15 years lagging after S3 Trio
707 2011-02-08 07:09:40 <ArtForz> yep
708 2011-02-08 07:09:42 <lfm> nohwcursor
709 2011-02-08 07:10:04 <xelister> BTW
710 2011-02-08 07:10:12 <citiz3n> confirmed: remote desktop + mining is = fail
711 2011-02-08 07:10:24 <ArtForz> could've told you as much
712 2011-02-08 07:10:28 <xelister> then manage to also FUCK UP THE TEXT MODE. but this is just nitpicking (the boot screen shows garbage for few seconds untill cleared)
713 2011-02-08 07:10:35 <OneFixt> lfm: also, no registration required
714 2011-02-08 07:10:36 <ArtForz> I think their driver team is a lobotomized monkey
715 2011-02-08 07:10:49 <xelister> :}
716 2011-02-08 07:11:01 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
717 2011-02-08 07:11:22 <lfm> onefixt how does it find the bitcoin addr to pay out to?
718 2011-02-08 07:11:39 <OneFixt> lfm you set your address as the username in the connection string, with any password
719 2011-02-08 07:11:53 <xelister> perhaps we should contact Amd
720 2011-02-08 07:11:55 <lfm> oh cool
721 2011-02-08 07:12:00 <xelister> offer to write not-shit drivers
722 2011-02-08 07:12:01 <jgarzik> OneFixt: bitpenny is... a miner pool?
723 2011-02-08 07:12:04 <xelister> like ArtForz
724 2011-02-08 07:12:13 <OneFixt> then you can check your balance and withdraw through the website by pasting your address on www.bitpenny.com
725 2011-02-08 07:12:17 <OneFixt> jgarzik: not exactly
726 2011-02-08 07:12:26 <OneFixt> the server buys your hashrate and pays you immediately
727 2011-02-08 07:12:35 <OneFixt> so it doesn't matter how many people are connected
728 2011-02-08 07:12:57 <xelister> ArtForz: or use part of your immerse welth :P to sponsore writting drivers that are not disgrace to entire humanity =)
729 2011-02-08 07:12:59 <OneFixt> you never have to wait for the block to complete in order to get paid
730 2011-02-08 07:13:04 <citiz3n> why does slush's pool wait for confirmation then?
731 2011-02-08 07:13:09 <citiz3n> how do you get away without waiting?
732 2011-02-08 07:13:23 <OneFixt> I pay with my own BTC balance
733 2011-02-08 07:13:39 <citiz3n> what prevents you from overpaying?
734 2011-02-08 07:13:39 <xelister> OneFixt: that will be an OHSHI moment if you pay out and it turns out long chain just got reverted?
735 2011-02-08 07:13:51 <OneFixt> yes
736 2011-02-08 07:13:52 <lfm> OneFixt: you still need to wait till your shares accumulat to m ore than 0.01
737 2011-02-08 07:14:06 <ArtForz> xelister: why bother?
738 2011-02-08 07:14:17 <OneFixt> lfm: yes, unfortunately, btc protocol limitation
739 2011-02-08 07:14:33 <OneFixt> I tried to make it send the whole balance, but then fees start to eat your balance
740 2011-02-08 07:14:37 <citiz3n> doesn't the number of shares vary from block to block
741 2011-02-08 07:14:38 <xelister> ArtForz: dunno? why people do charity... Get laid? By some hot linux entusiast chicks? (they exist ;)
742 2011-02-08 07:14:51 <OneFixt> It's actually cheaper for the users not to withdraw the sub-.01 balance
743 2011-02-08 07:15:05 <citiz3n> hot linux enthusiast chicks?
744 2011-02-08 07:15:07 <xelister> btw, do pool miners also share the income from transactions processing?
745 2011-02-08 07:15:10 <xelister> or just 50.00
746 2011-02-08 07:15:13 <OneFixt> well, this is not a charity
747 2011-02-08 07:15:22 <lfm> OneFixt: share value would only vary with main system difficulty I spoze
748 2011-02-08 07:15:32 <OneFixt> I calculate the rate based on the current difficulty.
749 2011-02-08 07:16:08 <OneFixt> To cover the server's huge exposure to risk, the rate is set a bit lower than expected value.
750 2011-02-08 07:16:25 <xelister> how much lower :}
751 2011-02-08 07:16:41 <OneFixt> But in return, you are able to get a near variance-free return, and to sell at market price before price falls.
752 2011-02-08 07:16:50 <OneFixt> You can calculate it based on the rate on the site =)
753 2011-02-08 07:17:02 darkskiez_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
754 2011-02-08 07:17:06 <lfm> come on! you can tell us
755 2011-02-08 07:17:30 <xelister> :-& 2% plus stealing tx money for the pool? ;)
756 2011-02-08 07:17:39 <OneFixt> It's a basic math puzzle, you'll get the satisfaction when you calculate it yourself =)
757 2011-02-08 07:17:45 <OneFixt> no way for me to steal
758 2011-02-08 07:17:51 <OneFixt> only you can steal =)
759 2011-02-08 07:18:05 <xelister> Theyy oook my tx monezzz
760 2011-02-08 07:18:11 <presence> how long does it take to get a mtgox transaction to complete?
761 2011-02-08 07:18:44 <lfm> so if I want to screw you I can hold back winning shares that you would get 50 btc
762 2011-02-08 07:18:45 * xelister wonders if any of pools is kind enought to also share tx fees earnings from block, on top on 50.00
763 2011-02-08 07:19:06 <OneFixt> xelister: not likely, it costs $ to run a pool
764 2011-02-08 07:19:22 <xelister> lfm: yes, that is an expensive way to screw with pool owners. You cause the owner how much harm as you are yourself not loosing, so rather expensive thing
765 2011-02-08 07:20:28 <xelister> if someone wants to spend 1000 BTC just to make someone else 1000 BTC poorer, then something is wrong with such a person, cetainly he's not profiting
766 2011-02-08 07:20:42 <ArtForz> except he doesnt spend 1000 btc
767 2011-02-08 07:20:43 <citiz3n> you generate transaction fees from running a pool?
768 2011-02-08 07:20:49 <xelister> (unless pool wars to monopolize market? ;)
769 2011-02-08 07:20:57 <lfm> xelister: yes, I would do better to just mine privately but who knows the pool admin might make enemies
770 2011-02-08 07:21:03 <xelister> ArtForz: s/spend/spend resources that normally would get him 1000 btc
771 2011-02-08 07:21:04 <OneFixt> Why don't you guys try bitpenny? Spend 5 mins, you might like it.
772 2011-02-08 07:21:08 <ArtForz> no
773 2011-02-08 07:21:22 <citiz3n> i will try it, onefix
774 2011-02-08 07:21:23 <ArtForz> if you submit every NON-winning share you still get about (difficulty-1)/difficulty of your "normal" return
775 2011-02-08 07:21:36 <xelister> wait, right
776 2011-02-08 07:21:49 <xelister> this is why other pools only share the actuall win
777 2011-02-08 07:21:53 <ArtForz> yep
778 2011-02-08 07:22:00 <OneFixt> ArtForz: yes, the attack is possible, but I will have security in place to ban such users and prevent them from withdrawing
779 2011-02-08 07:22:11 Slix`` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
780 2011-02-08 07:22:14 <xelister> OneFixt: it is triviall to cheat your pool to double mining...
781 2011-02-08 07:22:22 <OneFixt> xelister: try it
782 2011-02-08 07:22:23 <midnightmagic> haha what a hilarious way to mess with someone.. i wonder if that's the reason why that guy came in here the other day complaining that he wasn't getting the expected return from participating in some pool!
783 2011-02-08 07:22:29 <xelister> e.g. I will mine 100 BTC and get 100 BTC from you on top of that
784 2011-02-08 07:22:37 <ArtForz> how do you detect someone *missing* a winning hash?
785 2011-02-08 07:22:38 <midnightmagic> some other douche was holding back with a custom miner..? hehehe wow.
786 2011-02-08 07:22:40 <OneFixt> xelister: try it and tell me if it works =)
787 2011-02-08 07:23:05 <xelister> we need moar miners and pools.
788 2011-02-08 07:23:19 <OneFixt> ArtForz: I'll have to keep that quiet for now.
789 2011-02-08 07:23:20 * satamusic contributes his 900mhz celeron
790 2011-02-08 07:23:37 <xelister> to make it more interesting, lets make new miner in php, and new pool server + website + UI in OpenCL
791 2011-02-08 07:23:38 <OneFixt> thanks satamusic =)
792 2011-02-08 07:23:43 <ArtForz> aka "let's hope no one calls my bluff and tries it"
793 2011-02-08 07:23:46 * Kiba ponders his next book target
794 2011-02-08 07:23:54 <Kiba> Let do SICP!
795 2011-02-08 07:23:54 <midnightmagic> LOL
796 2011-02-08 07:24:04 <OneFixt> It's not a bluff - currently it's not implemented.
797 2011-02-08 07:24:18 <satamusic> right now i'm mining from a 8800GS on your bitpenny pool
798 2011-02-08 07:24:20 <OneFixt> but when it is, I would do better to keep quiet about it to make it harder to circumvent
799 2011-02-08 07:24:22 <xelister> what is not implemented?
800 2011-02-08 07:24:29 <midnightmagic> wow that's a really great idea.. I love it!
801 2011-02-08 07:24:39 <midnightmagic> i would never do it, but.. I love it!
802 2011-02-08 07:24:50 <OneFixt> midnightmagic: which part?
803 2011-02-08 07:25:16 <midnightmagic> the part where you mine but hold back a winner under the current difficulty..
804 2011-02-08 07:25:46 <satamusic> :s
805 2011-02-08 07:25:50 <OneFixt> indeed
806 2011-02-08 07:25:52 <midnightmagic> and just get another work unit instead. if you have a chunk of miners (say 8-10 5970) then the pool as a whole consistently underperforms..
807 2011-02-08 07:25:59 <ArtForz> yep
808 2011-02-08 07:26:02 <ArtForz> thats generally how you damage pools
809 2011-02-08 07:26:05 <midnightmagic> and people leave just because.
810 2011-02-08 07:26:37 puddinpop has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
811 2011-02-08 07:26:45 <OneFixt> sure
812 2011-02-08 07:26:52 <midnightmagic> hahaha it never occurred to me before now.. perhaps I'm so amused because it's late and I'm still at work, working but I don't want to be.
813 2011-02-08 07:27:09 <OneFixt> lol
814 2011-02-08 07:27:38 <midnightmagic> :-D
815 2011-02-08 07:28:08 <ArtForz> it's especially rewarding for instant-payout pools, but works nearly as well on contributed pools
816 2011-02-08 07:28:24 <OneFixt> yep
817 2011-02-08 07:28:44 ThomasV has joined
818 2011-02-08 07:28:56 <midnightmagic> i wonder if the pool manager could detect it based on the number of hashes you're churning through, and then over a huge chunk of time conclude with more and more certainty that you should have returned a winner before then, and just kick you out instead.
819 2011-02-08 07:29:33 <ArtForz> you need a pretty large time/#shares for that
820 2011-02-08 07:29:35 <OneFixt> not really - you can switch ips and accounts
821 2011-02-08 07:29:39 <lfm> and there might be more than one person doing it
822 2011-02-08 07:29:49 <ArtForz> especially if someone is only dropping *some* winning hashes
823 2011-02-08 07:29:54 <midnightmagic> OneFixt: well, you know, I guess it's assuming you're brazen about it.
824 2011-02-08 07:30:03 <ArtForz> and ofc, change IP, lather, rinse, repeat
825 2011-02-08 07:30:10 <midnightmagic> awesome..
826 2011-02-08 07:30:19 <citiz3n> what would be the motive behind this
827 2011-02-08 07:30:28 <ArtForz> err... damaging pools
828 2011-02-08 07:30:30 <midnightmagic> and here all this time the only one I was thinking about was a cheating pool manager..
829 2011-02-08 07:30:43 <citiz3n> i run a pool, so i want to damage someone else's?
830 2011-02-08 07:30:46 <ArtForz> griefers need a reason nowadays?
831 2011-02-08 07:30:54 <jgarzik> heh
832 2011-02-08 07:31:02 <lfm> you need to be vindictive about it cuz you would make more in private
833 2011-02-08 07:31:36 <midnightmagic> i guess if people are bent on mining they would leave the pool and mine normally, so it's not like a long-term strategy to improve your own odds considering the growth of the network.
834 2011-02-08 07:31:45 <ArtForz> nope
835 2011-02-08 07:32:32 <midnightmagic> pure douchebaggery. like those idiots who run up to my car and bang on the hood because they've had too much to drink.
836 2011-02-08 07:32:33 <lfm> or if you are just shorting btc on the general market?
837 2011-02-08 07:33:05 <lfm> not sure how but ..
838 2011-02-08 07:33:15 <ArtForz> no clue why someone would do it
839 2011-02-08 07:33:19 <citiz3n> do most of the big miners just mine on their own and use the regular bitcoin server?
840 2011-02-08 07:33:20 <OneFixt> if you're shorting, it's useful to mine for an instant payout so you can short immediately
841 2011-02-08 07:33:41 <midnightmagic> jesus i'm still giggling. time to go home.
842 2011-02-08 07:33:47 <lfm> citiz3n: ya or use private custom miners
843 2011-02-08 07:34:25 <midnightmagic> citiz3n: regular bitcoin server, but custom miners.. sometimes you really can eke out quite a bit if you write to the lowest level you can.
844 2011-02-08 07:34:46 <citiz3n> interesting
845 2011-02-08 07:35:26 <citiz3n> well im off to bed - g'night everyone
846 2011-02-08 07:35:28 <midnightmagic> i have this friend who used to be able to do in 100 instructions what took the rest of us 1000. he would carefully study the entire instruction set, and pull this shit right the hell out of his ass, and presto! pure gold.
847 2011-02-08 07:35:28 <ArtForz> yup
848 2011-02-08 07:35:35 <midnightmagic> night citiz3n!
849 2011-02-08 07:35:37 citiz3n is now known as citiz3n_zzZZzZ
850 2011-02-08 07:35:40 <lfm> I think Art uses a custom patched bitcoind server as well
851 2011-02-08 07:35:43 <ArtForz> yup
852 2011-02-08 07:35:54 <ArtForz> my miner is about 8% faster than the fastest OCL miners
853 2011-02-08 07:36:02 <ArtForz> and about 3% faster than mrbs
854 2011-02-08 07:36:07 <xelister> 8===========D :}
855 2011-02-08 07:36:12 <satamusic> lol
856 2011-02-08 07:36:24 <ArtForz> (blame mrb for it)
857 2011-02-08 07:36:37 <xelister> ;)
858 2011-02-08 07:36:40 <soultcer> I wrote a quantum miner that is faster than all your miners
859 2011-02-08 07:36:46 <soultcer> Someone give me a quantum computer to run it on :P
860 2011-02-08 07:37:06 <lfm> soultcer: cool. you shouldn't tell us tho, now we are warned
861 2011-02-08 07:37:20 <midnightmagic> i wrote a miner that works with yeast and sugar! hah!
862 2011-02-08 07:37:23 <xelister> I wrote a miner that calculates all minable blocks in half day, but Lore stolen it. Now borgs trade using it
863 2011-02-08 07:37:37 <ArtForz> I was perfectly happy with my 565Mh/s OCL miner before he went all dickwavery with his 585Mh/s CAL miner
864 2011-02-08 07:37:38 <satamusic> i knew it ^
865 2011-02-08 07:37:45 <jgarzik> getwork poll mining is inefficient; a better scheme gets work to you more quickly than polling miners, giving custom miners a useful window of opportunity perhaps
866 2011-02-08 07:37:50 <midnightmagic> "dickwavery"?
867 2011-02-08 07:37:59 <midnightmagic> fucking-A maybe I'll stay for a few more minutes..!
868 2011-02-08 07:38:15 <xelister> did someone said btc2xxx.org
869 2011-02-08 07:38:15 <midnightmagic> so that's why your old miner went into m0m's.
870 2011-02-08 07:38:21 <ArtForz> yup
871 2011-02-08 07:38:28 <soultcer> midnightmagic: Actually bacteria and DNA based crypto might be a more serious threat to current cryptographic algorithms than quantum computing.
872 2011-02-08 07:38:43 <ArtForz> my own CAL miner now does 604Mh/s on stock 5970
873 2011-02-08 07:38:56 <xelister> soultcer: I can already see in my imagination, all this bacteria working sha rounds like bussyass motherfuckers
874 2011-02-08 07:38:58 <OneFixt> looks like someone's made a nice .05BTC on bitpenny
875 2011-02-08 07:39:02 <midnightmagic> i was curious about that. i thought it had something to do with your move to those chips of yours but I guess it makes more sense that you wouldn't just throw away your old hardware yet. :)
876 2011-02-08 07:39:15 <ArtForz> yep
877 2011-02-08 07:39:30 <ArtForz> for now it makes sense to keep my GPUs
878 2011-02-08 07:39:31 <soultcer> xelister: Imagine "growing" blocks instead of mining them *hrhr*
879 2011-02-08 07:39:32 * jgarzik still holds out hope that he can get FOSS devs to let me pass CAL ELF binaries via Linux DRM drivers
880 2011-02-08 07:39:43 <midnightmagic> soultcer: yeah that's why I mentioned it. there's some great slime mold concepts too.
881 2011-02-08 07:39:56 <ArtForz> shit'll look different when I have to switch to utility power
882 2011-02-08 07:40:01 <Kiba> hmm
883 2011-02-08 07:40:07 <xelister> sha1 does sound like a problem that will work fine with generic algorithms or work with biological organisms calculator
884 2011-02-08 07:40:11 <xelister> sha256
885 2011-02-08 07:40:14 dissipate has joined
886 2011-02-08 07:40:20 <xelister> not like a problem that will totally fuck up any such approach :}
887 2011-02-08 07:40:29 <ArtForz> doubt it
888 2011-02-08 07:40:34 <xelister> you dont say
889 2011-02-08 07:40:38 <satamusic> ArtForz, you don't have to pay for electricity?
890 2011-02-08 07:40:44 <midnightmagic> christ, nobody would believe me if I mined with bacteria..
891 2011-02-08 07:40:45 <ArtForz> currently, not really
892 2011-02-08 07:40:52 * Kiba starts the great hacking barrage
893 2011-02-08 07:41:02 <lfm> weep
894 2011-02-08 07:41:15 <ArtForz> though I'm starting to have to switch my miners to utility power more frequently
895 2011-02-08 07:41:22 <xelister> midnightmagic: unless by mining with lower life forms you just mean you are realy realy rasist and offshored some miners
896 2011-02-08 07:41:45 <ArtForz> outside temps are up quite a bit :/
897 2011-02-08 07:41:50 <lfm> ArtForz: get industrial power then only mine during off peak times
898 2011-02-08 07:42:08 <xelister> make power turbine, harvest electricity and power fans with it
899 2011-02-08 07:42:14 <presence> mining onpeak should still be profitable, just not as profitable
900 2011-02-08 07:42:18 <jgarzik> OneFixt: did you use my poold as a base?
901 2011-02-08 07:42:27 <OneFixt> nope, custom
902 2011-02-08 07:42:35 <ArtForz> yeah, it's still pretty profitable
903 2011-02-08 07:42:55 <lfm> presence: depends whare you are maybe some rates are quite high
904 2011-02-08 07:42:58 <xelister> btw, any one has any idea is @0.90 a big bubble or what??
905 2011-02-08 07:43:10 <Kiba> xelister: your guess is good as mine
906 2011-02-08 07:43:12 <presence> yeah, some places have rediculous electricity costs
907 2011-02-08 07:43:16 <ArtForz> *shakes magic 8-ball*
908 2011-02-08 07:43:23 <xelister> recently we talked how mining can cost as lowe as @0.10 for some people (e.g. already have ok hw, dont pay much for electricity)
909 2011-02-08 07:43:23 <midnightmagic> a moment while i glare into my magic crystal ball!
910 2011-02-08 07:43:24 <xelister> 0.10
911 2011-02-08 07:43:27 <xelister> and now bam, 0.90
912 2011-02-08 07:43:30 <presence> however, in most cases the more that you use the less that you pay per kwh (on tiers)
913 2011-02-08 07:43:35 <OneFixt> Congrats to whoever made the first withdrawal =)
914 2011-02-08 07:43:40 <ArtForz> well, $0.30/kWh around here
915 2011-02-08 07:43:47 * xelister 2-3 lower
916 2011-02-08 07:43:48 <presence> I pay .11/kwh
917 2011-02-08 07:43:51 <Kiba> xelister: we'll stay at the pricelevel of 0.90 as long as the bitcoin economy continues to expand
918 2011-02-08 07:44:08 <midnightmagic> presence: not here. from $0.065, up to $0.08 or so once you use more than 1.3kWh per month.
919 2011-02-08 07:44:11 <Kiba> that and I am trying to nick every bitcoin as I can before the price reach absurdly high level
920 2011-02-08 07:44:15 <lfm> kiba or higher?
921 2011-02-08 07:44:15 * Kiba 's goal 2100 BTC
922 2011-02-08 07:44:22 <ArtForz> iirc vlads customers pay even more
923 2011-02-08 07:45:08 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,calc 114000
924 2011-02-08 07:45:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 114000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 week, 4 days, 8 hours, 4 minutes, and 34 seconds
925 2011-02-08 07:45:20 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,calc 115000
926 2011-02-08 07:45:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 115000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 week, 4 days, 5 hours, 42 minutes, and 36 seconds
927 2011-02-08 07:45:27 <presence> I already use 3.2k kwh/mon
928 2011-02-08 07:45:28 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,calc 1
929 2011-02-08 07:45:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3540 years, 37 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 54 minutes, and 20 seconds
930 2011-02-08 07:45:32 * xelister pitties LobsterMan's nvidia box
931 2011-02-08 07:45:34 * Kiba earns 0.03 BTC per day from his site
932 2011-02-08 07:45:36 <LobsterMan> :P
933 2011-02-08 07:45:37 <jgarzik> ;;bc,calc 1000000
934 2011-02-08 07:45:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 day, 7 hours, 1 minute, and 0 seconds
935 2011-02-08 07:45:40 * LobsterMan slaps xelister around with a heavy metal pole
936 2011-02-08 07:46:00 chaord has joined
937 2011-02-08 07:46:01 <presence> ;;bc,calc 320000
938 2011-02-08 07:46:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 320000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 0 hours, 55 minutes, and 37 seconds
939 2011-02-08 07:46:01 <lfm> jgarzik: use /msg gribble to avoid spamming us
940 2011-02-08 07:46:15 * LobsterMan slaps lfm around with a heavy metal pole
941 2011-02-08 07:46:29 * xelister slaps a heavy metal pole around with LobsterMan
942 2011-02-08 07:46:34 <LobsterMan> o_0
943 2011-02-08 07:46:38 <lfm> LobsterMan: oh you too
944 2011-02-08 07:46:46 <LobsterMan> ^_____________________________________________^
945 2011-02-08 07:47:02 <midnightmagic> presence: lemme see.. three four-way 5970 equivalents? so, 12 cards total maybe?
946 2011-02-08 07:47:13 <presence> tomorrow I will get my dual nvidia working in the new box and hopefully my other 5870 shows up
947 2011-02-08 07:47:16 <xelister> btw I seen artice about braking passwords
948 2011-02-08 07:47:37 <presence> midnight: nah, I have buttloads of electronics at the house...required for my work at northrop
949 2011-02-08 07:47:54 <lfm> presence: nvidia blah! are they still profitable?
950 2011-02-08 07:48:14 <ArtForz> yeah
951 2011-02-08 07:48:14 <midnightmagic> yikes. :) i'm looking forward to mocking the cops who are inevitably going to show up and demand to see my grow-op..
952 2011-02-08 07:48:14 <xelister> "this is how password-breaker looks like" ---> http://technologie.gazeta.pl/internet/1,104530,9069516,Tak_wyglada_lamacz_hasel__.html
953 2011-02-08 07:48:26 <xelister> do you see naything very wrong with that picture :>
954 2011-02-08 07:48:26 <presence> yeah, its still better than not running it
955 2011-02-08 07:48:31 <midnightmagic> "I'm growing crypto, douchebags!" "Cuff him.."
956 2011-02-08 07:49:06 <lfm> midnightmagic ya your face will be bloody mess but you will show them!
957 2011-02-08 07:49:33 <midnightmagic> they don't do that shit around here, they can't get away with it anymore.
958 2011-02-08 07:49:41 <xelister> you will probably not fall off the stairs 5 times
959 2011-02-08 07:49:52 <xelister> because USA is known to have not-evil police and all
960 2011-02-08 07:49:58 <midnightmagic> I'm not american.
961 2011-02-08 07:50:01 <lfm> and they never put on the cuffs too tight
962 2011-02-08 07:50:04 <LobsterMan> i guess a gpu farm might use more power than a large cannabis grow op
963 2011-02-08 07:50:05 <LobsterMan> :P
964 2011-02-08 07:50:06 <xelister> *any country basically*
965 2011-02-08 07:50:12 <midnightmagic> Except Canada.
966 2011-02-08 07:50:15 joe_1 has joined
967 2011-02-08 07:50:21 <xelister> midnightmagic: yeap
968 2011-02-08 07:50:34 <xelister> midnightmagic: in Canada they instead electroshock you to death. on airport
969 2011-02-08 07:50:36 <lfm> midnightmagicso long as you're white
970 2011-02-08 07:50:41 <ArtForz> LobsterMan: yup
971 2011-02-08 07:50:42 <midnightmagic> The odd boot in the face.. but then retribution comes back tenfold..
972 2011-02-08 07:50:50 <LobsterMan> ^_^
973 2011-02-08 07:51:03 <chaord> hey guys...would any of you with intimate knowledge of the source code be interested in implementing a feature request of me? (for pay)
974 2011-02-08 07:51:15 <ArtForz> well... at least I guess so
975 2011-02-08 07:51:18 <ArtForz> not like I know how much power a indoor grow-op is using or anything
976 2011-02-08 07:51:18 <midnightmagic> chaord: put up your feature request and ask for an estimate in bitcoins. :)
977 2011-02-08 07:51:21 <chaord> PM me if you are...are
978 2011-02-08 07:51:22 <lfm> chaord: maybe
979 2011-02-08 07:51:25 <midnightmagic> LOL
980 2011-02-08 07:51:43 <midnightmagic> chaord: probably the forum would be a better place to solicit though.
981 2011-02-08 07:51:56 <joe_1> i've been working for the past 4 days to get bitcoin to COMPILE
982 2011-02-08 07:52:09 <chaord> midnightmagic well of course i'd pay in btc (unless requested otherwise)...i figured that was a given ;)
983 2011-02-08 07:52:10 <lfm> joe_1: good for you
984 2011-02-08 07:52:20 <midnightmagic> chaord: :-)
985 2011-02-08 07:52:22 <joe_1> lfm was talking to chaoird
986 2011-02-08 07:52:48 <midnightmagic> chaord: awesome, bro, post to the forum, more people read there than read the backlog here.
987 2011-02-08 07:52:51 <joe_1> and wen i get this thing to compile im implementing a laundry list of no brainer improvements to the client. maybe it is possible your rquest overlaps with what im already thinking of
988 2011-02-08 07:52:54 <chaord> yah...i'd post the forum eventually...i'm more interested in some dedicated development though than a slow-going bounty type thing
989 2011-02-08 07:53:14 <LobsterMan> chaord what kind of feature are you looking for?
990 2011-02-08 07:53:31 <LobsterMan> i can't really help. but i am curious nonetheless
991 2011-02-08 07:53:34 <LobsterMan> ,*
992 2011-02-08 07:54:16 <midnightmagic> i am also curious!
993 2011-02-08 07:54:17 <dissipate> chaord, slow growing bounty?
994 2011-02-08 07:54:31 <chaord> LobsterMan: essentially I need to, on top of the account feature, export private keys for a specific account (let's call it a "savings account") to a different file (possible on a usb drive)
995 2011-02-08 07:55:00 <midnightmagic> that request i think is already up on the github site.
996 2011-02-08 07:55:11 <chaord> yah, a similar one is
997 2011-02-08 07:55:21 <lfm> chaord: check with gavinadnresen see if he is already working on it
998 2011-02-08 07:55:44 <chaord> yah..i chatted with him yesterday....he didn't indicate that he was working on it currently
999 2011-02-08 07:56:00 <chaord> i will re-confirm though
1000 2011-02-08 07:56:41 <lfm> chaord may be able to use listaccount command or something to hack it up
1001 2011-02-08 07:56:43 <chaord> dissipate: oh, just saying that sometimes the bounty method takes a while for features to be developed...not sure why i called it slow-growing, haha
1002 2011-02-08 07:57:23 <lfm> slow-going prolly depends on reward-effort ratio
1003 2011-02-08 07:57:40 <dissipate> chaord, probably depends on the amount of the bounty
1004 2011-02-08 07:57:41 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1005 2011-02-08 07:58:08 <dissipate> chaord, if i offered a large sum relative to the time/effort to develop the feature, it will probably be implemented pretty quick.
1006 2011-02-08 07:58:16 <chaord> lfm: perhaps...my goal is pretty simple....I just want to have the client look for the private keys for a particular account at /some/path....if it can't find them (eg usb key is not in), then the transaction waits til it is (or times out)
1007 2011-02-08 07:58:55 <chaord> dissipate: that is correct...i'd rather not have to offer my highest amount and have a few devs just give me quotes ;)
1008 2011-02-08 07:59:31 TheAncientGoat has joined
1009 2011-02-08 07:59:34 <dissipate> chaord, set up an auction with a secret reserve. :O
1010 2011-02-08 08:00:06 <chaord> dissipate: thought about that...i'll look into it
1011 2011-02-08 08:00:24 <chaord> so...no takers from the chatroom directly? ;)
1012 2011-02-08 08:05:18 devrandom has joined
1013 2011-02-08 08:17:09 larsivi has joined
1014 2011-02-08 08:18:19 <joe_1> bitcoin $2 tomorrow?
1015 2011-02-08 08:20:41 <midnightmagic> LOL
1016 2011-02-08 08:21:01 <midnightmagic> I wonder if it's possible to buy one specific order @ $5 just to mock the system.
1017 2011-02-08 08:21:14 <lfm> joe_1: maybe if you clean out your bank account and buy btc, you have 30,000 dollars in the bank right?
1018 2011-02-08 08:23:15 <joe_1> yeah
1019 2011-02-08 08:23:39 <lfm> ok then! we'll be watching for ya
1020 2011-02-08 08:24:55 <joe_1> but that wouldnt be smart. if i wanted 30,000 in coins i would funnel the money in slowly
1021 2011-02-08 08:25:03 <joe_1> get them all for under a dollar
1022 2011-02-08 08:25:40 <joe_1> then wait for the pop to $2
1023 2011-02-08 08:25:57 <joe_1> cash the 30,000 back out
1024 2011-02-08 08:26:07 <lfm> might never pop to $2 then, could be bubble that pops too
1025 2011-02-08 08:26:50 <joe_1> its not a bubble because the price belongs well over 1000$ per coin
1026 2011-02-08 08:27:19 <lfm> well your $30,000 is good as gold then, better
1027 2011-02-08 08:27:36 <joe_1> yeah, it will turn into 30 million
1028 2011-02-08 08:27:51 yoyo_ has joined
1029 2011-02-08 08:27:57 <yoyo_> how do i determine khps?
1030 2011-02-08 08:28:05 <yoyo_> is there something on bitcoin that's supposed to show me?
1031 2011-02-08 08:28:13 <joe_1> your client reads it out to you near the bottom left
1032 2011-02-08 08:28:21 <lfm> yoyo ya, turn on generation
1033 2011-02-08 08:28:25 <yoyo_> it's on
1034 2011-02-08 08:28:30 <yoyo_> i have 65 connections
1035 2011-02-08 08:28:36 <yoyo_> and it doesn't say anything in the bottom left
1036 2011-02-08 08:28:45 <yoyo_> 45138 blocks
1037 2011-02-08 08:28:54 <yoyo_> 45500 blocks now
1038 2011-02-08 08:28:59 <yoyo_> 0 transactions
1039 2011-02-08 08:29:00 <lfm> yoyo wait till you have all blocks downloaded, (hour or two
1040 2011-02-08 08:29:07 <yoyo_> ohhh okay
1041 2011-02-08 08:29:27 <yoyo_> is it really worth it?
1042 2011-02-08 08:30:01 <lfm> if you dont have a high end gpu then you will have trouble making profit
1043 2011-02-08 08:30:12 <yoyo_> just built a new computer
1044 2011-02-08 08:30:20 <yoyo_> 3ghz quad core
1045 2011-02-08 08:30:23 <lfm> what model gpu?
1046 2011-02-08 08:30:23 <yoyo_> 4 gig ram
1047 2011-02-08 08:30:27 <yoyo_> athlon 2
1048 2011-02-08 08:30:39 <lfm> what model gpu? not cpu
1049 2011-02-08 08:30:44 <yoyo_> oh
1050 2011-02-08 08:30:48 <yoyo_> HIS raedon 5670
1051 2011-02-08 08:30:56 <yoyo_> why gpu?
1052 2011-02-08 08:31:05 <yoyo_> 1 gig 400 stream processors
1053 2011-02-08 08:31:20 <joe_1> it turns out that gpu's can calcualate bitcoin blocks way faster than CPU's
1054 2011-02-08 08:31:23 <lfm> oo ok marginal. it will work but might not pay for its own power
1055 2011-02-08 08:31:32 <yoyo_> dang
1056 2011-02-08 08:31:44 <yoyo_> what if i put it on a cloud server?
1057 2011-02-08 08:31:49 <yoyo_> will it generate enough then? :)
1058 2011-02-08 08:31:55 <lfm> yoyo depends how much you pay for your power maybe
1059 2011-02-08 08:32:04 <joe_1> you'll be swimming in cash
1060 2011-02-08 08:33:04 <lfm> i dont think cloud server is relevant
1061 2011-02-08 08:33:25 <OneFixt> yoyo_ how many watts does it take? I think it should easily pay for its own power
1062 2011-02-08 08:33:35 <OneFixt> it should do about 75Mhs
1063 2011-02-08 08:33:41 <yoyo_> well i hae a 650 watt power supply
1064 2011-02-08 08:33:57 <yoyo_> and i leave my computer on 24/7 anyways
1065 2011-02-08 08:34:16 <yoyo_> how many blocks will i download before it begins generation?
1066 2011-02-08 08:34:45 <OneFixt> the card takes only 64 watts, should run about 72.5 Mh/s
1067 2011-02-08 08:34:47 dirtyfil1hy has joined
1068 2011-02-08 08:34:50 <lfm> yoyo hard to say you might only be using 100-200 watts for normal operation, the 650 is only needed to start up
1069 2011-02-08 08:34:58 <OneFixt> ;;bc,calc 72500
1070 2011-02-08 08:34:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 72500 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 48 minutes, and 58 seconds
1071 2011-02-08 08:35:35 <yoyo_> and 1 block equals how many bitcoins?
1072 2011-02-08 08:35:35 <yoyo_> 50?
1073 2011-02-08 08:35:40 <lfm> ya
1074 2011-02-08 08:35:59 <yoyo_> so in 2 approximately 2 months i should have atleast 100-200?
1075 2011-02-08 08:36:12 <yoyo_> theoretically
1076 2011-02-08 08:36:20 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1077 2011-02-08 08:36:39 <lfm> maybe ya
1078 2011-02-08 08:36:43 <yoyo_> sweet
1079 2011-02-08 08:36:50 <yoyo_> i see some shit i wanna buy
1080 2011-02-08 08:36:51 <yoyo_> haha
1081 2011-02-08 08:39:25 <yoyo_> thanks guys, i'll see how this works
1082 2011-02-08 08:39:28 yoyo_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1083 2011-02-08 08:39:32 <OneFixt> joe_1 do you mine?
1084 2011-02-08 08:40:02 <joe_1> no i dont own a good gpu and have been too lazy to buy a $600 gpu to mine profitably
1085 2011-02-08 08:40:22 <OneFixt> ah, ok
1086 2011-02-08 08:40:26 <joe_1> do you
1087 2011-02-08 08:40:34 <OneFixt> yep
1088 2011-02-08 08:40:42 <joe_1> do u have a room full of 5970s like artforz
1089 2011-02-08 08:40:45 <OneFixt> I'm also testing a new mining service, so looking for testers
1090 2011-02-08 08:40:59 <OneFixt> joe_1 who knows =)
1091 2011-02-08 08:41:09 <lfm> 5770 can be profitable only costs < $150
1092 2011-02-08 08:41:32 <OneFixt> yeah, 5770 is very efficient, just the rest of the system costs more in proportion to a 5970 rig
1093 2011-02-08 08:43:18 <joe_1> if i did it i would try my best to get away with putting it into the system i already have instead of buying a whole new computer.
1094 2011-02-08 08:44:13 <Kiba> hmm
1095 2011-02-08 08:44:15 <OneFixt> then a 5770 is a pretty decent choice
1096 2011-02-08 08:44:21 * Kiba goes to sleep
1097 2011-02-08 08:44:27 <OneFixt> you can hook it up to bitpenny
1098 2011-02-08 08:44:46 <joe_1> bitpenny
1099 2011-02-08 08:44:49 <ArtForz> yup
1100 2011-02-08 08:44:53 <OneFixt> yup yup
1101 2011-02-08 08:44:58 <ArtForz> also 5770 is less likely to blow up crappy PSUs
1102 2011-02-08 08:45:05 <OneFixt> joe_1: bitpenny.com
1103 2011-02-08 08:45:27 <OneFixt> ArtForz: 5770 is around as efficient as a 5970, right?
1104 2011-02-08 08:45:32 <ArtForz> not quite
1105 2011-02-08 08:46:39 <OneFixt> I was thinking in terms of $/hash, not power actually
1106 2011-02-08 08:46:44 <ArtForz> yes
1107 2011-02-08 08:46:52 <ArtForz> for card alone 5770 gets better hash/$
1108 2011-02-08 08:47:05 <joe_1> is bitpenny a mining pool
1109 2011-02-08 08:47:27 <OneFixt> I hesitate to call it a pool because you're not pooled with anyone
1110 2011-02-08 08:47:38 <OneFixt> rather you sell it your hashing power, and it pays you immediately
1111 2011-02-08 08:47:40 <ArtForz> for complete system, 5970 wins
1112 2011-02-08 08:47:53 <joe_1> but what if i cheat, and cash in any blocks i find
1113 2011-02-08 08:48:10 <ArtForz> short answer: you can't
1114 2011-02-08 08:48:11 <OneFixt> can't do that, the getworks have the server's address in the merkle root
1115 2011-02-08 08:48:18 <ArtForz> ^.. that
1116 2011-02-08 08:48:24 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1117 2011-02-08 08:48:27 darkskiez_ has joined
1118 2011-02-08 08:48:27 <lfm> joe_1: you cant cash them in yourself. all you could do is deny them to the pool
1119 2011-02-08 08:48:30 <ArtForz> and 5970 has about 25% higher hash/W
1120 2011-02-08 08:48:34 <Kiba> wow
1121 2011-02-08 08:48:39 <Kiba> that was a lot of midnight coding
1122 2011-02-08 08:48:55 <joe_1> well the servers address can't be in the merkle root but it could be in a merkle leaf
1123 2011-02-08 08:49:21 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
1124 2011-02-08 08:49:36 <OneFixt> ---^
1125 2011-02-08 08:50:06 <ArtForz> it's a hash tree, change any leaf and you change the root
1126 2011-02-08 08:50:28 <joe_1> and each transaction must be a valid bitcoin transaction
1127 2011-02-08 08:50:39 <ArtForz> yep
1128 2011-02-08 08:50:47 <joe_1> so how do you squeeze in the servers address
1129 2011-02-08 08:51:14 <ArtForz> ?
1130 2011-02-08 08:51:26 <lfm> server's address is in the txn "to" address field
1131 2011-02-08 08:51:30 <ArtForz> yep
1132 2011-02-08 08:51:30 <joe_1> oh.
1133 2011-02-08 08:53:35 <ArtForz> the only way to "cheat" is to drop valid hash <= target solutions
1134 2011-02-08 08:54:13 <OneFixt> which is a good way to screw yourself out of using a pool
1135 2011-02-08 08:54:19 <ArtForz> which doesnt gain the cheater anything (well, he actually loses a bit), but causes more loss for pool operator and/or other pool participants
1136 2011-02-08 08:54:36 <lfm> yes you screw the whole pool including yourself
1137 2011-02-08 08:54:50 <ArtForz> actually for a insta-payout pool you don't really screw yourself too badly
1138 2011-02-08 08:55:01 <OneFixt> yeah, I'm taking a huge risk with that
1139 2011-02-08 08:55:09 <lfm> except in the long run
1140 2011-02-08 08:55:16 <ArtForz> why?
1141 2011-02-08 08:55:33 <ArtForz> after the pool goes bankrupt you continue mining on your own.
1142 2011-02-08 08:55:34 <joe_1> so the way they should really do it is, participants only calculate the first hash. operator calculates the second hashes
1143 2011-02-08 08:55:39 <lfm> in the long run the pool will increase margins to cover "cheats
1144 2011-02-08 08:56:02 <ArtForz> yep
1145 2011-02-08 08:56:11 <lfm> joe ya something like that
1146 2011-02-08 08:56:13 <ArtForz> which a pool a lot less attractive
1147 2011-02-08 08:56:23 <ArtForz> yeah, let's see...
1148 2011-02-08 08:56:42 darkskiez_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1149 2011-02-08 08:56:54 <ArtForz> 500Mh/s, 32 byte/hash ...
1150 2011-02-08 08:57:01 <OneFixt> joe_1 that would be like reversing workers and the server...
1151 2011-02-08 08:57:37 <ArtForz> 16GB/s, that'S gonna be a tiny bit of a problem
1152 2011-02-08 08:58:16 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1153 2011-02-08 08:58:25 <OneFixt> ah I see what he's saying
1154 2011-02-08 08:58:31 <OneFixt> yeah, a bit of a bandwidth issue
1155 2011-02-08 08:59:04 <OneFixt> though it theoretically would make screwing the server twice as expensive
1156 2011-02-08 08:59:14 <ArtForz> btw, at current diff a "pool damager" would lose... 0.003%
1157 2011-02-08 08:59:33 <OneFixt> not twice as expensive/ rather 50% loss
1158 2011-02-08 09:00:07 <OneFixt> ArtForz: and his dignity =)
1159 2011-02-08 09:00:54 <ArtForz> it's all pretty theoretical anyways
1160 2011-02-08 09:01:29 <joe_1> the solution is very simple bitcoin would need to be modifiied. the difficulty hash would be acceptable if the first X bytes match one of the branches of the merkle tree..or something.
1161 2011-02-08 09:01:41 <ArtForz> if you want to fuck a pool, just pay a botnet herder a few bucks to DDoS it
1162 2011-02-08 09:01:46 <lfm> ya he would need to get a custom miner to do the "damage" first
1163 2011-02-08 09:02:28 <lfm> joe or something
1164 2011-02-08 09:02:39 <ArtForz> actually that custom mienr would be pretty damn simple
1165 2011-02-08 09:02:58 <ArtForz> *miner
1166 2011-02-08 09:03:28 <lfm> ArtForz: ya for you or maybe me but the average luser who doesnt know python or java or ...
1167 2011-02-08 09:03:37 <ArtForz> yeah, still pretty damn simple
1168 2011-02-08 09:03:58 <joe_1> lfm it would solve the whole problem
1169 2011-02-08 09:04:04 <ArtForz> theres already a if(hash <= target) {submit result}
1170 2011-02-08 09:04:21 <ArtForz> change the if to hash <= pool_target and hash > real_target
1171 2011-02-08 09:05:08 <joe_1> i'll have to add that in to my laundry list of fixes
1172 2011-02-08 09:05:31 <ArtForz> boom, done
1173 2011-02-08 09:05:31 <ArtForz> it's so simple, you could pay a indian to do it *ducks*
1174 2011-02-08 09:05:56 <OneFixt> ArtForz: first you gotta explain what bitcoin is
1175 2011-02-08 09:06:32 <OneFixt> althought.... I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few businesses running on btc there in the near future
1176 2011-02-08 09:07:15 <lfm> diablo on hollidays or something?
1177 2011-02-08 09:08:06 <joe_1> im thinking of getting a solid state drive with my next computer
1178 2011-02-08 09:08:33 <ArtForz> SSDs are fun
1179 2011-02-08 09:08:50 <joe_1> is there any down side to them
1180 2011-02-08 09:09:05 <lfm> smaller capacity
1181 2011-02-08 09:09:08 <echelon> around what time is magicaltux usually around?
1182 2011-02-08 09:09:18 <echelon> he seems to be always away
1183 2011-02-08 09:09:22 <ArtForz> and some older models have the tendency to just die FNAR
1184 2011-02-08 09:09:24 <lfm> ;;seen magicaltux
1185 2011-02-08 09:09:25 <gribble> I have not seen magicaltux.
1186 2011-02-08 09:09:39 <echelon> he's on as MT`AwAy
1187 2011-02-08 09:09:55 <MT`AwAy> it's me
1188 2011-02-08 09:10:05 <lfm> ;;seem MT`AwAy
1189 2011-02-08 09:10:06 <gribble> Error: "seem" is not a valid command.
1190 2011-02-08 09:10:14 <lfm> ;;seen MT`AwAy
1191 2011-02-08 09:10:14 <gribble> MT`AwAy was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 19 seconds ago: <MT`AwAy> it's me
1192 2011-02-08 09:10:22 <ArtForz> WAY faster app start, and system actually stays semi-usable while swapping
1193 2011-02-08 09:10:49 <joe_1> cool
1194 2011-02-08 09:11:10 <ArtForz> boot is also faster, but thats kinda pointless for linux users
1195 2011-02-08 09:11:26 <joe_1> why, because linux users naver have to boot up?
1196 2011-02-08 09:11:43 <ArtForz> up 176 days, 19:27
1197 2011-02-08 09:11:48 <ArtForz> ... pretty much
1198 2011-02-08 09:11:51 * MT`AwAy pokes echelon
1199 2011-02-08 09:11:56 <echelon> oh :D
1200 2011-02-08 09:12:22 <echelon> so, you're going to start selling ssl certs?
1201 2011-02-08 09:12:48 <MT`AwAy> echelon, yep, but I'll need some interfaces for that (input of csr, loads of doc, etc)
1202 2011-02-08 09:12:55 <MT`AwAy> if you want in the meantime we can do that directly
1203 2011-02-08 09:13:51 <ArtForz> big UPS and generator, ideal conditions for uptime 8=====D
1204 2011-02-08 09:13:52 <echelon> oh, i was meaning to ask something else
1205 2011-02-08 09:14:04 <echelon> would they be good for code signing?
1206 2011-02-08 09:14:13 <echelon> for deploying software
1207 2011-02-08 09:14:30 <MT`AwAy> echelon, for code signing I got specific stuff, but I never got to test those
1208 2011-02-08 09:14:38 <echelon> oh
1209 2011-02-08 09:15:43 <MT`AwAy> maybe if you told me more we could test that
1210 2011-02-08 09:16:17 <echelon> i'm just going to be deploying a signed java applet/jnlp for the site
1211 2011-02-08 09:16:22 <MT`AwAy> heh
1212 2011-02-08 09:16:24 <MT`AwAy> signed java x.x
1213 2011-02-08 09:16:30 <echelon> :/
1214 2011-02-08 09:17:20 <echelon> if it's not signed by a ca, it warns users not to run it
1215 2011-02-08 09:17:51 <MT`AwAy> yep
1216 2011-02-08 09:18:15 <MT`AwAy> have you tried to check startssl.com ?
1217 2011-02-08 09:18:29 <echelon> are they anonymous?
1218 2011-02-08 09:18:48 chaord has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1219 2011-02-08 09:18:59 <echelon> i mean i've heard of them and they offer free 1-yr ssl certs
1220 2011-02-08 09:19:08 <MT`AwAy> signing certificates is not anonymous
1221 2011-02-08 09:19:14 <echelon> ya
1222 2011-02-08 09:19:27 <echelon> it would have to correspond with the whois
1223 2011-02-08 09:19:40 <MT`AwAy> for domains
1224 2011-02-08 09:19:55 <echelon> hmm
1225 2011-02-08 09:19:55 <MT`AwAy> for code signing you need to send copy of passport, and get your address verified
1226 2011-02-08 09:20:12 <joe_1> retarded
1227 2011-02-08 09:21:15 <echelon> i don't think startssl is even recognized as a root ca
1228 2011-02-08 09:21:29 <echelon> in java cacerts file
1229 2011-02-08 09:21:32 <MT`AwAy> it is recognized at least by microsoft, mozilla, and others
1230 2011-02-08 09:21:36 <MT`AwAy> I don't know about oracle
1231 2011-02-08 09:23:53 <echelon> nope.. http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=E21qU6xg
1232 2011-02-08 09:24:14 <MT`AwAy> 46/108
1233 2011-02-08 09:25:21 <echelon> thawte's free email certs used to work, but they discontinued it :/
1234 2011-02-08 09:25:48 <echelon> oh well
1235 2011-02-08 09:25:57 <echelon> anyway, kalyhost owns xta.net?
1236 2011-02-08 09:28:39 <MT`AwAy> yep, it's my domain
1237 2011-02-08 09:28:47 <echelon> cool
1238 2011-02-08 09:28:59 <MT`AwAy> expires in 2020
1239 2011-02-08 09:29:01 <MT`AwAy> :D
1240 2011-02-08 09:29:20 <echelon> nice :]
1241 2011-02-08 09:31:07 <echelon> oh yeah, was meaning to ask you something else
1242 2011-02-08 09:31:46 <echelon> recently i got my domain for free through ripn.net, but they offloaded that service to a paid registrar
1243 2011-02-08 09:32:18 <echelon> well, not recently.. for the last 7yrs
1244 2011-02-08 09:32:18 m0mchil has joined
1245 2011-02-08 09:33:49 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1246 2011-02-08 09:34:01 molecular has joined
1247 2011-02-08 09:34:08 <echelon> MT`AwAy, if you provide registry of a ccTLD, would you be able to register a third level domain as well?
1248 2011-02-08 09:35:08 <MT`AwAy> echelon, most of the time yep
1249 2011-02-08 09:35:19 <echelon> awesome
1250 2011-02-08 09:35:28 <MT`AwAy> depends of those third level domains are official or not
1251 2011-02-08 09:36:06 <echelon> well i've seen other registrars sell them
1252 2011-02-08 09:36:16 <echelon> http://www.ripn.net/nic/dns/info/en/domains-3level-to-nic.html
1253 2011-02-08 09:37:34 <echelon> http://www.ripn.net/nic/dns/info/en/access-get-to-nic.html
1254 2011-02-08 09:37:39 <MT`AwAy> ok
1255 2011-02-08 09:37:40 <MT`AwAy> unofficial
1256 2011-02-08 09:37:46 <echelon> oh :/
1257 2011-02-08 09:38:05 Guest has joined
1258 2011-02-08 09:43:56 m0mchil has left ()
1259 2011-02-08 09:45:40 jav has joined
1260 2011-02-08 09:47:26 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1261 2011-02-08 09:47:48 ArtForz has joined
1262 2011-02-08 09:49:10 Guest is now known as Jon81
1263 2011-02-08 09:54:57 <echelon> MT`AwAy, so you're going to add support for ssl authenticating for uid.st?
1264 2011-02-08 09:55:24 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1265 2011-02-08 09:55:32 <MT`AwAy> echelon, it already exists but only works with firefox (well, I think key generation is broken right now since the acls are not present on the server)
1266 2011-02-08 09:55:53 <echelon> yeah, it doesn't work for me in ff
1267 2011-02-08 09:56:14 <MT`AwAy> for login, or key creation ?
1268 2011-02-08 09:56:21 <echelon> key creation
1269 2011-02-08 09:56:27 <MT`AwAy> as I said
1270 2011-02-08 09:56:29 <MT`AwAy> it doesn't work
1271 2011-02-08 09:56:29 <MT`AwAy> :p
1272 2011-02-08 09:56:35 <MT`AwAy> I'll have to do something later
1273 2011-02-08 09:56:38 <echelon> :)
1274 2011-02-08 09:56:39 <MT`AwAy> when I'm on the new servers
1275 2011-02-08 09:56:54 <MT`AwAy> it used to work one year ago
1276 2011-02-08 09:56:59 <echelon> the ff message box shows that it's creating it then it stops
1277 2011-02-08 09:57:08 <echelon> ah
1278 2011-02-08 09:57:28 <MT`AwAy> but I moved servers few months ago, and removed some ACLs
1279 2011-02-08 09:57:38 <MT`AwAy> I'll fix that after this month's server move
1280 2011-02-08 09:57:38 dissipate has joined
1281 2011-02-08 09:58:38 <echelon> cool
1282 2011-02-08 09:58:58 noagendamarket has joined
1283 2011-02-08 09:59:17 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
1284 2011-02-08 09:59:17 noagendamarket has joined
1285 2011-02-08 10:15:37 Jon81 has quit (Quit: Jon81)
1286 2011-02-08 10:15:41 kermit has joined
1287 2011-02-08 10:20:58 slush1 has joined
1288 2011-02-08 10:31:25 <UukGoblin> there you have it, your resistance at $~0.85-0.9
1289 2011-02-08 10:31:52 <MT`AwAy> lol
1290 2011-02-08 10:31:59 <MT`AwAy> I was wondering about the incrase in BTC sales on kalyhost.com
1291 2011-02-08 10:32:00 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
1292 2011-02-08 10:32:00 <gribble> 29230.34144814
1293 2011-02-08 10:32:28 <UukGoblin> holy shit @ diff :-]
1294 2011-02-08 10:35:07 <dissipate> bitcoin may be doomed: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3254.0
1295 2011-02-08 10:36:04 <ArtForz> world may end tomorrow
1296 2011-02-08 10:37:48 <dissipate> ArtForz, not going to read my post?
1297 2011-02-08 10:37:59 <UukGoblin> lol
1298 2011-02-08 10:38:04 <UukGoblin> dissipate, that's not bitcoin related
1299 2011-02-08 10:38:15 <UukGoblin> if that happens, the internet is doomed, not bitcoin
1300 2011-02-08 10:38:25 <ArtForz> "govt might take over the intarwebz"
1301 2011-02-08 10:38:27 <dissipate> UukGoblin, how so?
1302 2011-02-08 10:38:28 <ArtForz> yawn
1303 2011-02-08 10:38:38 <dissipate> ArtForz, you didn't read it, did you?
1304 2011-02-08 10:38:40 <OneFixt> Central banks took over the money systems. Bitcoin happened.
1305 2011-02-08 10:38:46 <ArtForz> yes I did
1306 2011-02-08 10:39:05 <dissipate> ArtForz, so you know china is building a huge cloud data center, right?
1307 2011-02-08 10:39:06 <OneFixt> So a binternet will sprout up and a new internet will be born.
1308 2011-02-08 10:39:44 <UukGoblin> china's internet is already doomed
1309 2011-02-08 10:39:57 <UukGoblin> they have a Great Firewall, and people are not protesting
1310 2011-02-08 10:40:19 <dissipate> and now they will have a Great Datacenter
1311 2011-02-08 10:40:21 <UukGoblin> dissipate, one possible answer to this is huge-scale wireless meshing
1312 2011-02-08 10:41:12 <dissipate> UukGoblin, you don't think they can jam wireless signals?
1313 2011-02-08 10:41:16 <ArtForz> "hey, lets just outlaw general purpose hardware and private communication"
1314 2011-02-08 10:41:29 <OneFixt> to be fair, dissipate, you have a point - it's probably heading in this direction; but there are enough technically compenent people out there who can sustain a free internet
1315 2011-02-08 10:41:33 <ArtForz> yeah, that's REALLY gonna fly.
1316 2011-02-08 10:42:14 <UukGoblin> and it's /not/ bitcoin related. sure, bitcoin would have an issue if that happened, but loads of other stuff would as well
1317 2011-02-08 10:42:42 <dissipate> ArtForz, it will when the average person can get all the content they want buy just hooking their TV/monitor and peripherals up to the cloud network.
1318 2011-02-08 10:43:17 <UukGoblin> dissipate, they'll still be able to hook it to any other network
1319 2011-02-08 10:43:24 <dissipate> UukGoblin, so you are saying my thread should be removed?
1320 2011-02-08 10:43:36 <ArtForz> so you're a prophet now?
1321 2011-02-08 10:43:49 <dissipate> UukGoblin, how? when the outlaw CPU ownership
1322 2011-02-08 10:43:53 <ArtForz> no, moved to OT, where it belongs
1323 2011-02-08 10:44:20 <ArtForz> it doesnt have shit to do with bitcoin
1324 2011-02-08 10:44:21 <OneFixt> you know, they DID outlaw strong cryptography in certain cases
1325 2011-02-08 10:44:31 <ArtForz> yes, and it DIDN'T WORK
1326 2011-02-08 10:44:37 <UukGoblin> dissipate, if they outlaw CPU ownership, you won't be able to own said TV/monitor and peripherals
1327 2011-02-08 10:44:39 <OneFixt> kinda makes you think they might say "regular CPUs are too powerful! too dangerous!"
1328 2011-02-08 10:44:55 <dissipate> OneFixt, i hope there are enough people to stop it. we can't depend on the average person to, that's for sure.
1329 2011-02-08 10:45:13 <OneFixt> the only real problem I see is with physical hardware availability
1330 2011-02-08 10:45:20 <ArtForz> errr... you realize CPUs already were export controlled?
1331 2011-02-08 10:45:24 <ArtForz> well, it worked just fine at hampering US based companies
1332 2011-02-08 10:45:34 <dissipate> OneFixt, it's the same thing they are saying about having large quantities of cash: "you must be a drug dealer!"
1333 2011-02-08 10:45:46 <ArtForz> the rest of the world just shook their heads and moved along
1334 2011-02-08 10:46:01 <ArtForz> same shit's still going on today
1335 2011-02-08 10:46:05 <lfm> bitcoin can run on MUCH less powerful computers too
1336 2011-02-08 10:46:13 <UukGoblin> there's plenty of physical hardware available today :-]
1337 2011-02-08 10:46:19 <OneFixt> ArtForz: actually, i didn't - cpus were controlled?
1338 2011-02-08 10:46:19 <ArtForz> try exporting a high-rate gyro from the US
1339 2011-02-08 10:46:22 <ArtForz> yep
1340 2011-02-08 10:46:23 <UukGoblin> you'd have to destroy it all to get rid of it
1341 2011-02-08 10:46:27 <dissipate> OneFixt, once they have the cloud data centers set up, they will claim the only people who want hard drives and PCs are people with something to hide.
1342 2011-02-08 10:46:36 <ArtForz> iirc anything faster than x VAX MIPS
1343 2011-02-08 10:47:01 <ArtForz> model helicopter hobbyists arent exactly thrilled about the gyro thing
1344 2011-02-08 10:47:10 <OneFixt> hah
1345 2011-02-08 10:47:10 <UukGoblin> gyrocopter?
1346 2011-02-08 10:47:16 <lfm> dissipate: and people who want to play computer games and companies who want to analyse their buisness data
1347 2011-02-08 10:47:23 <ArtForz> automatic pitch/roll stabilization
1348 2011-02-08 10:47:26 <UukGoblin> ah
1349 2011-02-08 10:47:27 <UukGoblin> :-]
1350 2011-02-08 10:47:31 <UukGoblin> heheh yeah nice toy to have
1351 2011-02-08 10:47:45 <ArtForz> and also very useful in quided missiles
1352 2011-02-08 10:47:51 <UukGoblin> still, it's possible to build one yourself with components available from stores
1353 2011-02-08 10:47:58 <ArtForz> yea
1354 2011-02-08 10:48:10 <ArtForz> because the components arent even fucking manufactured in the US
1355 2011-02-08 10:48:15 <UukGoblin> so they can outlaw what they want and you can still have one
1356 2011-02-08 10:48:39 <OneFixt> thankfully
1357 2011-02-08 10:48:43 <ArtForz> so eurian distributors just order em straight from china
1358 2011-02-08 10:48:51 <OneFixt> it might change if we ever get the NWO though
1359 2011-02-08 10:48:59 <OneFixt> no "China" to get components from
1360 2011-02-08 10:49:16 <lfm> new world order?
1361 2011-02-08 10:49:19 <OneFixt> yeah
1362 2011-02-08 10:49:23 <UukGoblin> dissipate, the computerworld article you linked doesn't seem to mention outlawing CPUs or private networks
1363 2011-02-08 10:49:38 <dissipate> did anyone notice the parallel between the Whitehouse wanting a master switch to the Internet and what happened in Egypt?
1364 2011-02-08 10:49:48 <OneFixt> yep
1365 2011-02-08 10:49:50 <dissipate> UukGoblin, i never claimed it did
1366 2011-02-08 10:49:51 <lfm> even a cell phone can run bitcoin
1367 2011-02-08 10:50:13 <UukGoblin> dissipate, so that's just your assumption
1368 2011-02-08 10:50:18 <ArtForz> btw, US export restrictions are sometimes completely fucking useless
1369 2011-02-08 10:50:22 <dissipate> why the bloody hell would the Whitehouse need a master switch for the Internet other than to shut it down during protests??
1370 2011-02-08 10:50:27 <echelon> yeah, if the gov't ever took control of the entire internet, people could easily deploy mesh networks
1371 2011-02-08 10:50:38 <ArtForz> can't export zigbee modules to sweden.
1372 2011-02-08 10:50:44 <UukGoblin> lol
1373 2011-02-08 10:50:57 <ArtForz> they're manufactured my motorola. in sweden.
1374 2011-02-08 10:51:05 <UukGoblin> HAHAHAH
1375 2011-02-08 10:51:12 <UukGoblin> :-D
1376 2011-02-08 10:52:12 <ArtForz> also fun was the xMega debacle
1377 2011-02-08 10:52:20 <OneFixt> i think the summary is this: 1) "THEY" will try all sorts of shit 2) life will go on
1378 2011-02-08 10:52:27 <dissipate> i hope the government collapses before they take over the internet
1379 2011-02-08 10:52:35 <ArtForz> Atmel xMega contained a crypto accelerator
1380 2011-02-08 10:53:06 <slush1> is there any bitcoin futures market?
1381 2011-02-08 10:53:08 <ArtForz> guess someone at a TLA read that and freaked.
1382 2011-02-08 10:53:09 <OneFixt> since 5970s are now "crypto-accelerators", shouldn't they be under export restriction?
1383 2011-02-08 10:53:15 <ArtForz> yep
1384 2011-02-08 10:53:29 <ArtForz> if you sell em for that purpose, you ... can't
1385 2011-02-08 10:53:34 <dissipate> what is a crypto accelerator?
1386 2011-02-08 10:53:42 <ArtForz> thats the question
1387 2011-02-08 10:54:04 <ArtForz> iirc the export law a totally useless definition
1388 2011-02-08 10:54:15 <ArtForz> something like "faster than general purpose hardware"
1389 2011-02-08 10:54:17 <dissipate> which export law? the cryptography one?
1390 2011-02-08 10:54:25 <ArtForz> yep
1391 2011-02-08 10:54:38 <OneFixt> ArtForz: so i guess if you came to the US you couldn't leave
1392 2011-02-08 10:54:43 <OneFixt> your brain might be faster than average
1393 2011-02-08 10:54:51 <echelon> lol
1394 2011-02-08 10:55:07 <ArtForz> yeah, the xMega AES engine *was* faster at AES than a regular 8-bit MCU, ofc it was still slower than a low-end PC by a few orders of magnitude
1395 2011-02-08 10:55:09 <dissipate> i thought the cryptography export law went away
1396 2011-02-08 10:55:13 <ArtForz> nope
1397 2011-02-08 10:55:19 <ArtForz> just went into a different law
1398 2011-02-08 10:55:24 <echelon> didn't someone sell a book with the code written in the text to bypass the export law?
1399 2011-02-08 10:55:44 <dissipate> ArtForz, is this hardware for encrypting, decrypting or both?
1400 2011-02-08 10:55:51 <ArtForz> both
1401 2011-02-08 10:55:54 <UukGoblin> hmm atmega's accelerator would be slower than general purpose hardware like 5970 ;-]
1402 2011-02-08 10:56:00 <echelon> might have been bruce schneier
1403 2011-02-08 10:56:09 <UukGoblin> oh you just said that
1404 2011-02-08 10:56:19 <ArtForz> well, it took atmel a few months to straighten the mess out
1405 2011-02-08 10:56:40 <ArtForz> aka "look guys, it's still SLOW AS FUCK"
1406 2011-02-08 10:56:41 <dissipate> i can encrypt something on a low end laptop that would take longer than the age of the universe to crack (with classical computers). i don't get what that is about.
1407 2011-02-08 10:56:59 <UukGoblin> dissipate, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China <- they need to fix that first in China
1408 2011-02-08 10:57:00 <soultcer> echelon: Yeah, pgp was published as a hardcover book.
1409 2011-02-08 10:57:11 <ArtForz> wonder how much they had to pay some bureaucrat to get that restriction lifted
1410 2011-02-08 10:57:12 <echelon> ah kk
1411 2011-02-08 10:57:27 <joe_1> who cares about laws. i certainly don't.
1412 2011-02-08 10:57:41 <UukGoblin> I care
1413 2011-02-08 10:57:46 <UukGoblin> I like to know when I break it
1414 2011-02-08 10:57:51 <ArtForz> well, it's just a bit of a problem for the US
1415 2011-02-08 10:58:00 <ArtForz> at least for US based electronic distributors
1416 2011-02-08 10:58:01 <dissipate> what do you guys think of technically proficient people working for the gov to destroy freedom? (e.g. the FBI, NSA and DHS). are they ignorant, evil, all of the above?
1417 2011-02-08 10:58:23 <soultcer> joe_1: Exporting cryptographic software was considered weapon smuggling.
1418 2011-02-08 10:58:24 <UukGoblin> there's DHL too
1419 2011-02-08 10:59:06 <ArtForz> I once had to fill a detailed export questionaire for a bunch of fuses
1420 2011-02-08 10:59:19 <ArtForz> yes, the electrical kind
1421 2011-02-08 10:59:22 <UukGoblin> heh
1422 2011-02-08 11:00:05 <ArtForz> one manufacturer decided to use some weird-ass DC fuse in their equipment thats about as common as hens teeth
1423 2011-02-08 11:00:19 <OneFixt> dissipate: I think it's not so simple, many people who work for those organisations actually want to do something positive
1424 2011-02-08 11:01:16 <ArtForz> we needed replacements. only place to get them is... from a US distributor
1425 2011-02-08 11:01:42 dirtyfilthy has joined
1426 2011-02-08 11:01:48 <UukGoblin> they didn't have them in china?
1427 2011-02-08 11:01:52 <ArtForz> nope
1428 2011-02-08 11:01:53 <UukGoblin> or at least some cheap copies?
1429 2011-02-08 11:01:53 <lfm> dissipate: they think they're there to catch the bad guys. from the outside it just looks like they are going off track sometimes
1430 2011-02-08 11:01:55 <UukGoblin> wow
1431 2011-02-08 11:02:26 <UukGoblin> they're the bad guys!
1432 2011-02-08 11:02:27 <dissipate> lfm, monitoring anti-war groups on college campuses is 'catching the bad guys'? :O
1433 2011-02-08 11:02:52 <joe_1> dissipate: do you believe in politician-killing?
1434 2011-02-08 11:02:54 <lfm> dissipate: they thot russian "agitators" were doing that sort of stuff
1435 2011-02-08 11:03:32 <dissipate> joe_1, depends on the circumstances.
1436 2011-02-08 11:03:33 <OneFixt> lfm: they certainly encouraged it
1437 2011-02-08 11:03:35 <ArtForz> "what equipment will these devices be used in" "same equipment the burnt out ones are in" "who is the final recipient of these" "errr... this. company." "could these devices used for weapons" "well, I guess you could throw them at someone..."
1438 2011-02-08 11:04:04 <OneFixt> lol
1439 2011-02-08 11:04:26 <dissipate> joe_1, i think politicians are guilty of crimes that are punishable by death, but i don't believe in randomly killing politicians (if that is what you mean).
1440 2011-02-08 11:04:26 <UukGoblin> :-]
1441 2011-02-08 11:04:28 <OneFixt> the funny thing is, you could make an effective weapon out of just about anything if you have a good imagination
1442 2011-02-08 11:04:33 dirtyfil1hy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1443 2011-02-08 11:04:44 <UukGoblin> exactly
1444 2011-02-08 11:04:58 <lfm> OneFixt: captain kirk vs the gorn?
1445 2011-02-08 11:05:03 <UukGoblin> even my brain can be used as a weapon
1446 2011-02-08 11:05:08 <dissipate> joe_1, for instance Bush should definitely be on death row
1447 2011-02-08 11:05:08 <OneFixt> lfm: sorry dont know that one
1448 2011-02-08 11:05:19 <ArtForz> throw it at someone?
1449 2011-02-08 11:05:24 <OneFixt> lol
1450 2011-02-08 11:05:28 <UukGoblin> (not to mention it can be an encryption accelerator, communication medium, or a CPU replacement)
1451 2011-02-08 11:05:32 <joe_1> when gabrielle giffords was killed i was disappointed that the shooter was not politically motivated. because killing congressmen who put us down with their lawmaking might actually help scare them away from doing it.
1452 2011-02-08 11:06:03 <OneFixt> joe_1: monitoring you is actually worthwhile, then, eh?
1453 2011-02-08 11:06:08 <ArtForz> I never quite figured out why these DC fuses are export controlled
1454 2011-02-08 11:06:25 <UukGoblin> lol it'd be funny to see if the china outlawed CPUs, you'd just hire loads of chinese workers to manually calculate SHA bitcoin blocks on paper
1455 2011-02-08 11:06:31 <joe_1> what do you mean 1fix
1456 2011-02-08 11:06:39 <ArtForz> best guess, I now know which kind of fuses is in a bunch of US missiles
1457 2011-02-08 11:07:04 <OneFixt> joe_1: it's not a good idea to condone these sorts of things
1458 2011-02-08 11:07:14 <OneFixt> joe_1: if you can't fix it peacefully, then you don't really have a real solution
1459 2011-02-08 11:07:16 <UukGoblin> with 1 billion chinese each doing 1 hash per minute, you could get away with about 16Mhash!
1460 2011-02-08 11:07:17 <lfm> CIA-98: take note of joe_1 sympathizing with crazy gunman
1461 2011-02-08 11:07:19 <UukGoblin> /s
1462 2011-02-08 11:07:34 <soultcer> joe_1 is right. Let's just shoot everyone we disagree wiht, it's obviously the best solution.
1463 2011-02-08 11:07:40 <ArtForz> yep
1464 2011-02-08 11:07:50 <ArtForz> should solve overpopulation pretty quickly
1465 2011-02-08 11:08:03 <joe_1> no- shoot statist lawmakers
1466 2011-02-08 11:08:05 <soultcer> I don't think it will solve overpopulation quickly
1467 2011-02-08 11:08:10 <lfm> no one left real soon
1468 2011-02-08 11:08:11 * soultcer draws gun at ArtForz
1469 2011-02-08 11:08:21 <ArtForz> I disagree *bang*
1470 2011-02-08 11:08:36 <dissipate> joe_1, ever heard of 'assassination politics'?
1471 2011-02-08 11:08:53 <ArtForz> buttbuttination?
1472 2011-02-08 11:09:09 <OneFixt> maybe you guys should move this to a different topic
1473 2011-02-08 11:09:23 <UukGoblin> ok
1474 2011-02-08 11:09:24 <ArtForz> why, this is #bitcoin-randomshit, right?
1475 2011-02-08 11:09:30 <UukGoblin> let's change the topic to sex
1476 2011-02-08 11:09:39 <UukGoblin> did you hear that mozambique was going to outlaw sex?
1477 2011-02-08 11:09:48 <joe_1> 1fix so i imagine when the united states declared independence from britain, it wasnn't a real solution because it wasn't peaceful.
1478 2011-02-08 11:09:53 <soultcer> UukGoblin: We are in a software developement channel, I don't think anybody has any experience with that topic.
1479 2011-02-08 11:09:54 <OneFixt> "don't feed the feds/trolls"
1480 2011-02-08 11:10:03 <UukGoblin> soultcer, lol true
1481 2011-02-08 11:10:08 <ArtForz> outlaw sex? someone should shoot these idiots.
1482 2011-02-08 11:10:11 <lfm> UukGoblin: maybe we could embed porrn in the bitchain
1483 2011-02-08 11:10:13 <soultcer> OneFixt: But the govt feeds me
1484 2011-02-08 11:10:34 <UukGoblin> lfm, yeah, that'd be cute
1485 2011-02-08 11:11:29 <OneFixt> joe_1: don't initiate force in other words. declare what you wish
1486 2011-02-08 11:11:36 <dissipate> OneFixt, there is a peaceful solution: stop paying taxes. unfortunately, you will probably violently be thrown in prison for doing so.
1487 2011-02-08 11:12:13 <joe_1> no, onefixt, the government has already initiated the force against the people. coming back at politicians would not be initiation of force.
1488 2011-02-08 11:12:35 <OneFixt> joe_1: physically harming an individula for what "THE POLITICIANS" have done is idiocy
1489 2011-02-08 11:12:41 <OneFixt> individual*
1490 2011-02-08 11:12:52 <joe_1> but physically harming a politician for what the politicians have done makes sense.
1491 2011-02-08 11:13:10 <OneFixt> i disagree
1492 2011-02-08 11:13:21 * soultcer draws gun at OneFixt and shoots him too
1493 2011-02-08 11:13:32 <soultcer> My opinion is the best. Everyone else deserves to be shot
1494 2011-02-08 11:13:34 <UukGoblin> physically harming makes sense in that it helps reduce overpopulation
1495 2011-02-08 11:13:42 <lfm> soultcer: please shoot joe_1 while you're at it
1496 2011-02-08 11:13:43 <UukGoblin> but you have to harm well
1497 2011-02-08 11:13:46 <OneFixt> can't argue with that, UukGoblin
1498 2011-02-08 11:13:57 <soultcer> lfm: But joe_1 is right. Shoot everyone who disagrees.
1499 2011-02-08 11:13:59 * soultcer shoots lfm too
1500 2011-02-08 11:14:15 <UukGoblin> shoot everyone who doesn't wear armour and can't shoot back!
1501 2011-02-08 11:14:16 <lfm> soultcer: are you dissagreeing with me?
1502 2011-02-08 11:14:37 <ArtForz> no! yes! *shoots himself*
1503 2011-02-08 11:14:42 <soultcer> lol
1504 2011-02-08 11:14:43 <UukGoblin> :-]
1505 2011-02-08 11:15:12 <dissipate> soultcer, no, more like shoot people who want to oppress me, take my property and set up an empire off my labor.
1506 2011-02-08 11:15:15 <lfm> ArtForz: whats your favorit color? what the airspeed of a swallow in flight?
1507 2011-02-08 11:15:21 <ArtForz> hahaha
1508 2011-02-08 11:15:32 <UukGoblin> lfm, african or australian swallow?
1509 2011-02-08 11:15:34 <OneFixt> african or...
1510 2011-02-08 11:15:35 <OneFixt> yeah
1511 2011-02-08 11:15:40 <Diablo-D3> blue! wait, green! yeaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
1512 2011-02-08 11:15:47 <UukGoblin> (not sure if the other one was australian)
1513 2011-02-08 11:16:04 <OneFixt> austrailan swallows are restricted
1514 2011-02-08 11:16:05 <OneFixt> too smart
1515 2011-02-08 11:16:09 joe_8 has joined
1516 2011-02-08 11:16:18 <comboy> ;;bc,stat
1517 2011-02-08 11:16:18 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
1518 2011-02-08 11:16:20 <UukGoblin> joe multiplies
1519 2011-02-08 11:16:21 <soultcer> dissipate: I don't have any people wo oppress me, take my property and set up an empire of my labor
1520 2011-02-08 11:16:23 <comboy> ;;bc,stats
1521 2011-02-08 11:16:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106889 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1974 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 13 hours, 35 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 29048.06574008
1522 2011-02-08 11:16:30 <soultcer> Well someone stole my walled once but I don't think I would shoot someone for that
1523 2011-02-08 11:16:38 <comboy> is there any tool online that shows what gribble says?
1524 2011-02-08 11:16:49 <dissipate> soultcer, so you don't live in an area with a government?
1525 2011-02-08 11:16:55 <Diablo-D3> and I thought it was african or european
1526 2011-02-08 11:17:06 <lfm> comboy: ya irc clients
1527 2011-02-08 11:17:06 <OneFixt> i think so, too, Diablo-D3
1528 2011-02-08 11:17:11 <UukGoblin> comboy, there's nullvoid.org/bitcoin
1529 2011-02-08 11:17:13 <soultcer> dissipate: No, I don't live in an area with a government that does any of the things you said
1530 2011-02-08 11:17:34 <comboy> lfm: :))
1531 2011-02-08 11:17:39 <comboy> UukGoblin: thanks
1532 2011-02-08 11:17:50 <ArtForz> and bitcoincharts.com
1533 2011-02-08 11:17:54 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1534 2011-02-08 11:18:01 * OneFixt goes to sleep
1535 2011-02-08 11:18:06 <soultcer> Good night
1536 2011-02-08 11:18:09 <lfm> OneFixt: bye
1537 2011-02-08 11:18:14 <dissipate> soultcer, do you live in an area with a government, yes or no?
1538 2011-02-08 11:18:31 <soultcer> Yes
1539 2011-02-08 11:18:31 <lfm> dissipate: hes a pirate on the high seas
1540 2011-02-08 11:18:42 <ArtForz> yarrr
1541 2011-02-08 11:18:46 <comboy> oh, missed difficulty estimation on bitcoincharts.com, as clean and beautiful as this site is, I find it hard to quickly get information from it
1542 2011-02-08 11:19:09 <ArtForz> yeah, it's well hidden in that top bar ;)
1543 2011-02-08 11:19:14 <lfm> comboy: try /msg gribble bc,stats
1544 2011-02-08 11:19:35 <dissipate> soultcer, so your government doesn't tax you or regulate you at all? how does it fund itself?
1545 2011-02-08 11:20:00 <comboy> lfm: thanks, also didnt know it responds to priv msgs
1546 2011-02-08 11:20:01 <lfm> dissipate: hes living in a manhole
1547 2011-02-08 11:20:17 Prof_BiG_BanG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1548 2011-02-08 11:20:31 <soultcer> dissipate: It taxes me and it regulates me, but how is that the same oppressing me and setting up an empire of my labor?
1549 2011-02-08 11:21:04 * ArtForz hands soultcer some more ancap kool-aid
1550 2011-02-08 11:21:15 <soultcer> I like having rules. It is good that all people drive on the right side of the road
1551 2011-02-08 11:21:19 <dissipate> soultcer, well, i'm assuming your government has some kind of military or police force
1552 2011-02-08 11:21:24 <soultcer> I like having taxes. It is good that there is a road I can drive on
1553 2011-02-08 11:21:30 <lfm> soultcer: um left!
1554 2011-02-08 11:21:38 <dissipate> soultcer, and if you don't think taxation is oppression, that's pretty sad.
1555 2011-02-08 11:21:39 <soultcer> dissipate: Yeah, I served in the military for 6 months
1556 2011-02-08 11:21:43 <UukGoblin> soultcer, hrm, the road was built from your labor
1557 2011-02-08 11:21:53 <soultcer> UukGoblin: No it was built from my taxes
1558 2011-02-08 11:21:58 <soultcer> I pay taxes so I get roads
1559 2011-02-08 11:22:02 <UukGoblin> which were taken from your labor
1560 2011-02-08 11:22:08 <UukGoblin> the problem I have with it is
1561 2011-02-08 11:22:12 <dissipate> soultcer, why do you *need* to pay taxes to have roads?
1562 2011-02-08 11:22:16 <UukGoblin> people who /don't/ pay taxes also get to use the roads
1563 2011-02-08 11:22:27 <soultcer> Because if I don't pay for the roads with my taxes, who will pay for the roads?
1564 2011-02-08 11:22:46 <lfm> soulcdoesnt labor ? he is trust fund kid?
1565 2011-02-08 11:22:56 <UukGoblin> soultcer, what if robots could mine minerals and build roads automatically?
1566 2011-02-08 11:23:01 <UukGoblin> no-one would have to pay for that
1567 2011-02-08 11:23:03 <ArtForz> people who want roads... I guess
1568 2011-02-08 11:23:04 <dissipate> soultcer, ever heard of an oil company? they have a slight interest in having roads around.
1569 2011-02-08 11:23:15 <soultcer> UukGoblin: Then who'd pay the roads.
1570 2011-02-08 11:23:38 <UukGoblin> soultcer, why would the roads need paying?
1571 2011-02-08 11:23:42 <lfm> roads still need space, who owns land?
1572 2011-02-08 11:23:58 <soultcer> lfm: No, in fact I am a student. The government pays for my education and food.
1573 2011-02-08 11:24:10 <soultcer> UukGoblin: Because they need maintenance.
1574 2011-02-08 11:24:14 <lfm> soultcer: ok
1575 2011-02-08 11:24:25 <dissipate> soultcer, a farmer feeds his animals and provides them with shelter and care. and?
1576 2011-02-08 11:24:26 <UukGoblin> soultcer, oh the same robots that built them would maintain them
1577 2011-02-08 11:24:46 <soultcer> UukGoblin: Somebody has to build the robots first
1578 2011-02-08 11:24:48 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
1579 2011-02-08 11:24:51 <lfm> dissipate: so we are farm animals, robots are farmers
1580 2011-02-08 11:24:59 * dirtyfilthy chuckles
1581 2011-02-08 11:25:02 <dirtyfilthy> ah libertarians
1582 2011-02-08 11:25:06 <UukGoblin> soultcer, so you like taxes because they give you food and shelter and you don't pay them, simple
1583 2011-02-08 11:25:20 <soultcer> So I am a farm animal, but I am a a happy animal. I get free ed
1584 2011-02-08 11:25:24 <ArtForz> who doesn't like not paying for shit?
1585 2011-02-08 11:25:36 joe_8 is now known as joe_1
1586 2011-02-08 11:25:38 <dissipate> soultcer, yep, pretty much.
1587 2011-02-08 11:25:41 <UukGoblin> soultcer, the robots could be built from donations and shit
1588 2011-02-08 11:26:00 <soultcer> UukGoblin: I don't pay taxes yet. Big difference. When I have finished my education I will earn money and thus pay taxes.
1589 2011-02-08 11:26:05 <dissipate> soultcer, what do you think people in power do to stay in power? throw scraps of meat to their flock.
1590 2011-02-08 11:26:17 <soultcer> UukGoblin: Donations work well. Just ask those starving kids in Africa.
1591 2011-02-08 11:26:28 <dissipate> soultcer, right, you have been groomed for the pluckin'
1592 2011-02-08 11:26:32 <UukGoblin> soultcer, but you'll pay different amounts depending on what job you find
1593 2011-02-08 11:26:46 <dirtyfilthy> life will be so much better under corporate rule
1594 2011-02-08 11:26:48 <lfm> actually the computers took over the worl back in the 1960s. that was when the volume of cheues became too large to be processed by hand, computers got control of the economy
1595 2011-02-08 11:26:53 <soultcer> dissipate: As long as they throw enough meat at me I'm happy I guess
1596 2011-02-08 11:27:06 <soultcer> UukGoblin: Yeah
1597 2011-02-08 11:27:07 <dissipate> soultcer, they are investing in your future tax paying years. and i'm sure they have racked up some government debt. so they have actually *already* spent your future earnings.
1598 2011-02-08 11:27:29 <UukGoblin> soultcer, so it may just happen that you don't actually repay your education in your life
1599 2011-02-08 11:27:42 <dissipate> it's like fattening up a pig or feeding chickens
1600 2011-02-08 11:27:43 <UukGoblin> also, you might become unemployed and claim benefits
1601 2011-02-08 11:27:51 <UukGoblin> and continue not paying taxes
1602 2011-02-08 11:27:58 <UukGoblin> and that'd still be perfectly fine with the law
1603 2011-02-08 11:28:06 <soultcer> Good for me, then?
1604 2011-02-08 11:28:11 <dirtyfilthy> lord forbid we care about other people
1605 2011-02-08 11:28:14 <UukGoblin> yes
1606 2011-02-08 11:28:23 <UukGoblin> bad for people who pay taxes, good for people who don't
1607 2011-02-08 11:28:28 <cosurgi> nice character: '฿' Would be cool if I could type it more easily. (copy-pasted currently)
1608 2011-02-08 11:28:31 <soultcer> This means that if I am unlucky I will still get a happy life. Yay for taxes!
1609 2011-02-08 11:28:44 <UukGoblin> yeah
1610 2011-02-08 11:28:46 <dirtyfilthy> UukGoblin: do you want to live in a society with people starving in the streets?
1611 2011-02-08 11:28:53 <soultcer> If I am lucky and get a high-paying job I also have a happy life. Hurray again for taxes
1612 2011-02-08 11:29:02 <dissipate> soultcer, if you need government to get what you want, then that is really sad. it's basically saying you are too dumb to earn what you need on your own.
1613 2011-02-08 11:29:15 <dirtyfilthy> fuck man
1614 2011-02-08 11:29:15 <UukGoblin> I'm lucky and I get a decent job but I don't want to give all my money to lazy people who can't find one, so I don't like taxes. :-]
1615 2011-02-08 11:29:18 <dirtyfilthy> me me me me
1616 2011-02-08 11:29:22 <lfm> soultcer: well your happy life doesnt have to include any luxuries, like a PC
1617 2011-02-08 11:29:35 <UukGoblin> dirtyfilthy, no, they should not be allowed on the streets because I'm probably paying for the streets and they don't
1618 2011-02-08 11:29:40 <dissipate> soultcer, so not only have they spent your future earnings, they insulted your intelligence and now they have you groomed for years of fleecing.
1619 2011-02-08 11:29:40 <UukGoblin> let them starve elsewhere
1620 2011-02-08 11:29:46 <Netsniper> government does not create wealth for anyone
1621 2011-02-08 11:29:49 <soultcer> UukGoblin: So what is if you are unlucky?
1622 2011-02-08 11:29:49 <Netsniper> end of story
1623 2011-02-08 11:29:53 <dirtyfilthy> yeah, see, hmmm, you people are fucked up
1624 2011-02-08 11:30:11 <lfm> Netsniper: thats not its jobs
1625 2011-02-08 11:30:13 <UukGoblin> soultcer, if you're unlucky you die and contribute to helping prevent overcrowding
1626 2011-02-08 11:30:25 <soultcer> UukGoblin: Bad for me then.
1627 2011-02-08 11:30:37 <UukGoblin> good/bad
1628 2011-02-08 11:30:48 <UukGoblin> bad for someone always equals good for someone else :-]
1629 2011-02-08 11:31:04 <UukGoblin> I'm tending towards balance
1630 2011-02-08 11:31:11 <soultcer> My grand-grand-father and grandfather both had a hard condition that killed them in their 60s
1631 2011-02-08 11:31:24 <lfm> UukGoblin: so you're not a beleiver in the win-win scenario?
1632 2011-02-08 11:31:38 <soultcer> I would never be able to afford an operation to prevent the same happening to me if it weren't for socialized health care.
1633 2011-02-08 11:31:41 <soultcer> Happy now?
1634 2011-02-08 11:31:52 <dissipate> soultcer, no faceless entity will ever just *give* you something out of the goodness of their hearts. you think the people in government office care about your education? haha. they are getting you ready to help pay off their wasteful spending and debt.
1635 2011-02-08 11:32:09 <UukGoblin> lfm, win-win happens between two parties. You could usually think up a bigger picture where there's actually win-win-lose-lose with ~4 parties
1636 2011-02-08 11:32:14 <soultcer> UukGoblin: "bad for someone always equals good for someone else" <-- this is so wrong to thik it makes me sad
1637 2011-02-08 11:32:32 <UukGoblin> soultcer, yeah I agree, the 'always' there is wrong
1638 2011-02-08 11:32:34 <UukGoblin> but often
1639 2011-02-08 11:32:41 <Diablo-D3> "CloudPerfect is a creative new way of getting you upvoted on Quora. Between trolling /b/ and marriage, people believe they can't learn how to paint. This is where CloudPerfect comes in, with lots of coffee and an army of monkeys, CloudPerfect will revolutionize your social experience."
1640 2011-02-08 11:32:48 <Diablo-D3> http://www.ykombinator.com
1641 2011-02-08 11:32:55 <Diablo-D3> best generator ever
1642 2011-02-08 11:33:17 <lfm> UukGoblin: so the universe is a zero sum game. actually its worse than that, according to entropy you cant really even break even
1643 2011-02-08 11:33:23 <dissipate> soultcer, so you admit you aren't smart enough or have enough wits to get what you need on your own with your own capacity to earn. sad.
1644 2011-02-08 11:33:30 <UukGoblin> lfm, indeed
1645 2011-02-08 11:33:38 <Netsniper> governments and thei supporters constantly rail against the "evils" in the hearts of people, and especially "corporations" or, groups of people - yet never seems to come to the correct conclusion that they are completely hypocritical by doing so
1646 2011-02-08 11:33:45 <ArtForz> lfm: yup
1647 2011-02-08 11:33:47 <UukGoblin> it's kinda like playing roulette
1648 2011-02-08 11:33:48 <dissipate> soultcer, you gotta have a bureaucrat hand you stuff. :(
1649 2011-02-08 11:33:57 <UukGoblin> it balances out between the players, but the casino always wins anyway
1650 2011-02-08 11:34:08 <UukGoblin> the casino = inevitable entropy increase
1651 2011-02-08 11:34:39 <soultcer> dissipate: I could live on my own. Farmer style, working day and night to keep my crops alive.
1652 2011-02-08 11:34:57 <soultcer> dissipate: And then one year there is a big storm with hail and I starve to death.
1653 2011-02-08 11:35:04 <dissipate> soultcer, how did you end up in such a pathetic state?
1654 2011-02-08 11:35:12 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: at least until maxwells demon comes along ;)
1655 2011-02-08 11:35:14 <UukGoblin> soultcer, bad for you, you didn't stack up a reserve
1656 2011-02-08 11:35:23 <lfm> soulciiiiee farmers dont live on their own! farmers get screwed all the time in every way
1657 2011-02-08 11:35:24 <soultcer> Or maybe I could work together with the other 8 million people in my country and help each other out in bad times.
1658 2011-02-08 11:35:27 <dissipate> soultcer, bad for you, you never heard of crop insurance.
1659 2011-02-08 11:35:37 <soultcer> Insurance? But that's a faceless entitiy
1660 2011-02-08 11:35:53 <UukGoblin> help each other out in bad times, sure
1661 2011-02-08 11:35:53 <soultcer> I can't afford insurance? With what should I pay them? Carrots?
1662 2011-02-08 11:35:59 <dissipate> sure it is, but you pay them directly. it's called business.
1663 2011-02-08 11:36:08 <UukGoblin> pay some lazy bastards who can't be arsed to do anything, no
1664 2011-02-08 11:36:09 <dissipate> soultcer, then don't set up a farm.
1665 2011-02-08 11:36:17 <Netsniper> insurance is not faceless, it does not make customers from unwilling partners, it can not charge more than it is deemed worthwile by both parties
1666 2011-02-08 11:36:38 <UukGoblin> someone made a calculation somewhere and in UK most money from taxes goes out in various benefits
1667 2011-02-08 11:36:42 <lfm> soultcer: the pirate on the high seas was a better idea than farmer!
1668 2011-02-08 11:37:03 RazielZ has joined
1669 2011-02-08 11:37:06 <Netsniper> being a politician is better than a pirate
1670 2011-02-08 11:37:13 <soultcer> Being a pirate is even riskier than being a farmer without insurance
1671 2011-02-08 11:37:14 <dissipate> soultcer, the problem is you think people out there care about you and want to give you stuff. in reality they don't. they want to take stuff from you, or use you as a political pawn to take from others. your ass is caught up in a big scheme. sorry.
1672 2011-02-08 11:37:23 <ArtForz> thats why pirates had insurance :P
1673 2011-02-08 11:37:30 <lfm> Netsniper: pirates are better liked!
1674 2011-02-08 11:37:49 <soultcer> dissipate: Your problem is that you don't trust anyone. You think everyone is out to get you and steal something from you.
1675 2011-02-08 11:38:08 <ArtForz> well ,thats generally a goo first-order approximation
1676 2011-02-08 11:38:16 <lfm> smoking too much grass makes you paranoid
1677 2011-02-08 11:38:37 <ArtForz> second-order is "someone might help you so they can benefit in some way"
1678 2011-02-08 11:38:40 <Netsniper> the government must smoke a lot of grass
1679 2011-02-08 11:38:49 <dissipate> soultcer, people have had to make a living somehow for thousands of years. it's called life. time to deal with it like a man instead of being proud of getting hand outs.
1680 2011-02-08 11:38:55 <ArtForz> third order and up gets brainfucky
1681 2011-02-08 11:39:01 <UukGoblin> soultcer, not everyone is out there to steal from you, but the most powerful people who can get away with it easily, do
1682 2011-02-08 11:39:09 <UukGoblin> s/do/are/
1683 2011-02-08 11:39:29 <dissipate> soultcer, no, i am just not deluded into thinking that people outside my immediate family care about me.
1684 2011-02-08 11:40:14 <dissipate> soultcer, and especially a guy who gets up at a podium and babbles empty rhetoric to a roomful of giddy tax cattle
1685 2011-02-08 11:40:15 <soultcer> dissipate: I am very sad to hear that. I wish you meet some nice people soon so you realize that the world is not all bad.
1686 2011-02-08 11:40:46 <UukGoblin> stop using the words bad/good. They're bad.
1687 2011-02-08 11:40:53 <ArtForz> good.
1688 2011-02-08 11:41:02 <joe_1> haha
1689 2011-02-08 11:41:09 <soultcer> lemme rephrase that
1690 2011-02-08 11:41:10 <dissipate> soultcer, i don't believe the world is all bad. i just don't believe in fairy tales (e.g. the guy in the Whitehouse who has never met me or heard about me really cares about me).
1691 2011-02-08 11:41:12 <lfm> soultcer: he didnt say world was all bad! he said his relatives look out for him, better than my relatives look out for me by the soud of it
1692 2011-02-08 11:41:37 <ArtForz> soultcer: reality check, a vast majority of the world doesnt give a flying fuck about you.
1693 2011-02-08 11:41:38 <soultcer> dissipate: I am very sad to hear that. I wish you meet some people who help you without an ulterior motive soon so you realize that the world is not full of people just looking out for themselves..
1694 2011-02-08 11:41:49 <lfm> dissipate: he really cares about your vote
1695 2011-02-08 11:42:21 <UukGoblin> soultcer, by liking taxes, you're effectively saying to me "fuck off and care about me! give me your money!"
1696 2011-02-08 11:42:22 <dissipate> soultcer, so you honestly believe politicians care about you?
1697 2011-02-08 11:42:41 <soultcer> ArtForz: Most of the world doesn't give a flying fuck about me, but that doesn't mean they do something to harm me.
1698 2011-02-08 11:42:46 <lfm> good way to get your vote is to seem to care
1699 2011-02-08 11:42:51 <soultcer> dissipate: Some do, most probably don't.
1700 2011-02-08 11:43:36 <dissipate> soultcer, ok, so if they A. don't really care about you and B. take your money and regulate you, then what conclusion can we draw here? hmm, i think they want power! ding ding ding!
1701 2011-02-08 11:44:10 <lfm> dissipate: well ya, votes are power in democracy
1702 2011-02-08 11:44:20 <soultcer> You do realize that taxes are not only collected to be salary for politicans?
1703 2011-02-08 11:44:22 <Netsniper> votes?
1704 2011-02-08 11:44:29 <Netsniper> that's absurd.
1705 2011-02-08 11:44:44 <Netsniper> if votes were power, why does the govt need guns?
1706 2011-02-08 11:44:49 <lfm> Netsniper: oh? no one cares about elections?
1707 2011-02-08 11:44:57 <dissipate> soultcer, true, a lot of taxes go to special interest groups and military industrial complexes that donate to campaigns.
1708 2011-02-08 11:45:19 <ArtForz> they're also pretty useful to bribe easily influenced population groups
1709 2011-02-08 11:45:22 <dissipate> lfm, actually, not even needing votes is power
1710 2011-02-08 11:45:28 <Netsniper> elections are a distraction
1711 2011-02-08 11:45:54 <Netsniper> there is only one party: the incumbant party
1712 2011-02-08 11:46:17 <dissipate> lfm, how many people can name the major shareholders of the Federal Reserve? and who voted them into their position?
1713 2011-02-08 11:46:31 <lfm> Netsniper: well if people let their votes be baught with cheezy tv ads then the power shifts
1714 2011-02-08 11:46:36 <soultcer> dissipate: Our military is one of the smallest parts of government spending
1715 2011-02-08 11:46:40 <UukGoblin> soultcer, by saying taxes are good because they pay for your education and protect you in case you get broke, you're effectively showing that YOU don't care for the rest of the people
1716 2011-02-08 11:46:40 <dissipate> there is one answer for both questions: pretty much no one
1717 2011-02-08 11:46:52 <UukGoblin> soultcer, and you actually prove that people out there are actually evil
1718 2011-02-08 11:47:07 <UukGoblin> and selfish
1719 2011-02-08 11:47:08 <soultcer> UukGoblin: But I do care. They also pay for other people's education and help other people when they are broke
1720 2011-02-08 11:47:10 <UukGoblin> and all
1721 2011-02-08 11:47:22 <UukGoblin> soultcer, but involuntarily! you force them to do that!
1722 2011-02-08 11:47:34 <UukGoblin> they don't go "yeah here please have my money"
1723 2011-02-08 11:47:39 <soultcer> Nobody is forced to pay taxes
1724 2011-02-08 11:47:40 <dissipate> soultcer, why do you need politicians and taxes for that? ever heard of charity?
1725 2011-02-08 11:47:44 <soultcer> Just go somewhere else if you don't like it here
1726 2011-02-08 11:47:45 <UukGoblin> soultcer, oh?
1727 2011-02-08 11:48:03 <UukGoblin> oh, yeah, sure
1728 2011-02-08 11:48:11 <ArtForz> lol
1729 2011-02-08 11:48:14 <lfm> soultcer: then you wind up in the pirate on the high seas position again
1730 2011-02-08 11:48:24 <dissipate> soultcer, but now you are implying the government legitimately owns everything. a fact you have not established to be true.
1731 2011-02-08 11:48:33 <soultcer> lfm: Yeah, so let them go and play pirate. I like paying taxes and not being a pirate
1732 2011-02-08 11:48:45 <UukGoblin> abandon my family, my house, my job, and go to united arab emirates! And I don't even know arabic! sure, why not!
1733 2011-02-08 11:48:59 <soultcer> dissipate: If the people are the government, the people own everything, which is good
1734 2011-02-08 11:49:03 <dissipate> soultcer, why don't the politicians leave?
1735 2011-02-08 11:49:17 altamic has joined
1736 2011-02-08 11:49:25 <lfm> soultcer: you said you dont pay taxes, you live offa them so of course you like em
1737 2011-02-08 11:49:34 <MT`AwAy> I'll publish the contributors scores soon
1738 2011-02-08 11:49:35 <MT`AwAy> :)
1739 2011-02-08 11:49:35 Prof_BiG_BanG has quit (Changing host)
1740 2011-02-08 11:49:35 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
1741 2011-02-08 11:49:51 <soultcer> lfm: I don't pay income tax as I have no income
1742 2011-02-08 11:50:01 <dissipate> soultcer, ok, here is a question: does the government internalize or externalize costs? that is, is an entity that imposes costs on others or does it pay for its own activities without imposing costs on others?
1743 2011-02-08 11:50:10 <UukGoblin> and you get student benefits so you actually pay negative income tax
1744 2011-02-08 11:50:51 <soultcer> dissipate: Best case is it does neither? It just shifts the money around from those that have it to those that need it, benefiting everyone.
1745 2011-02-08 11:50:51 <lfm> dissipate: I think thats a false dichotomy
1746 2011-02-08 11:51:05 <dissipate> lfm, how so?
1747 2011-02-08 11:51:22 <UukGoblin> soultcer, who is there to say who needs it? people who pay taxes also need the money
1748 2011-02-08 11:51:25 <dissipate> soultcer, so you robbing someone is 'shifting money around'?
1749 2011-02-08 11:51:28 <lfm> all organizations have income and expenses
1750 2011-02-08 11:51:38 <UukGoblin> anyways
1751 2011-02-08 11:51:39 <soultcer> UukGoblin: I served the 6 months for almost no pay in the army instead of studying, so I guess the government owes me one :P
1752 2011-02-08 11:51:40 <UukGoblin> in case of doubt
1753 2011-02-08 11:51:51 <UukGoblin> just shoot everyone who disagrees, like we agreed earlier. :-]
1754 2011-02-08 11:52:05 <dissipate> lfm, but not all organizations impose costs on people (e.g. a club that is funded voluntarily by member dues).
1755 2011-02-08 11:52:25 <soultcer> UukGoblin: And yet they have an acceptable living standard
1756 2011-02-08 11:52:32 <UukGoblin> soultcer, but it's not government that pays for that, it's /other taxpayers/
1757 2011-02-08 11:52:49 <UukGoblin> government just supervises the thefts
1758 2011-02-08 11:52:50 <lfm> dissipate: if you dont like the club you can quit? isnt that the same as people saying if you dont like this country get out?
1759 2011-02-08 11:52:54 <dissipate> soultcer, you made your farmers proud of you
1760 2011-02-08 11:53:16 <Netsniper> That progressives and other collectivists can maintain with a straight face that Âwe are the government while simultaneously maintaining that Âa corporation is separate and apart from its owners stands of one of the most glaring inconsistencies in their ideologies. -Robert Higgs
1761 2011-02-08 11:53:24 <dissipate> lfm, no, because they haven't established the legitimacy of the government's power in the first place.
1762 2011-02-08 11:53:37 <dissipate> lfm, putting the cart before the horse
1763 2011-02-08 11:54:24 <lfm> dissipate: and a corporation has "established legitimacy"? corps can be evil too
1764 2011-02-08 11:54:38 <joe_1> LobsterMan: are you there
1765 2011-02-08 11:54:38 <dissipate> lfm, if the government does not externalize costs then no protest is legitimate. if it does externalize costs, then it is no more than a criminal organization.
1766 2011-02-08 11:54:44 * LobsterMan slaps joe_1 around with a heavy metal pole
1767 2011-02-08 11:54:51 <soultcer> dissipate: Pretty sure the farmers are happy about taxes as they are getting heavy subsidies for what they do.
1768 2011-02-08 11:54:59 <Netsniper> so if we are government, how does taking money from us, taking some off the top for the cost of collecting it and salaries for govt employees, and then returning it to us ... create greater value or wealth, fairness.. or anything else?
1769 2011-02-08 11:55:03 <dissipate> lfm, corporations are quasi-governmental entities. you are going in circles.
1770 2011-02-08 11:55:18 <lfm> dissipate: when a corporations costs go up they increase prices, isnt that "externalizing costs"?
1771 2011-02-08 11:55:18 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1772 2011-02-08 11:55:19 <joe_1> How did you fix the problem with the common iterator boost problem? i'm having the exact same issue.
1773 2011-02-08 11:55:28 <soultcer> UukGoblin: If the government is only supervising, you could view taxes as a form of donation
1774 2011-02-08 11:55:41 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1775 2011-02-08 11:55:46 <LobsterMan> joe_1 i was never able to get bitcoin to build on windows
1776 2011-02-08 11:55:50 <LobsterMan> i gave up months ago :\
1777 2011-02-08 11:55:52 <joe_1> oh
1778 2011-02-08 11:55:55 <dissipate> lfm, first of all a corporation by definition externalizes costs by being a quasi-governmental entity
1779 2011-02-08 11:56:01 <UukGoblin> soultcer, NO! donations are voluntary, taxes are enforced!
1780 2011-02-08 11:56:07 <lfm> dissipate: when a church's expenses go up they solicit more donations, isnt that externalizing costs?
1781 2011-02-08 11:56:14 <soultcer> UukGoblin: That's why donations don't work but taxes do.
1782 2011-02-08 11:56:25 <UukGoblin> donations don't work?
1783 2011-02-08 11:56:30 <UukGoblin> and wikipedia doesn't work either then?
1784 2011-02-08 11:56:37 <Netsniper> Harry Reid says taxes are voluntary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6q0slMhDw8
1785 2011-02-08 11:56:39 <dissipate> lfm, nope. because they secured the donations through willing parties. that is no more externalizing a cost than mowing my own lawn.
1786 2011-02-08 11:56:42 <lfm> UukGoblin: churches dont exist?
1787 2011-02-08 11:57:17 <soultcer> UukGoblin: And yet children starve in Africa.
1788 2011-02-08 11:57:21 <ArtForz> someone should tell slush
1789 2011-02-08 11:57:33 <lfm> and luke-jr
1790 2011-02-08 11:57:47 <UukGoblin> and taxes work. sure. every time you make a transaction you pay VAT. You realise that if you sell a thing 10 times the taxes you should pay each time will exceed the value of the item?
1791 2011-02-08 11:57:52 <dissipate> lfm, if someone throws money at me that can hardly be called 'externalizing a cost', unless i am coercing them or holding a gun at them.
1792 2011-02-08 11:57:56 <UukGoblin> soultcer, of course they starve
1793 2011-02-08 11:58:04 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: actually... no
1794 2011-02-08 11:58:05 <UukGoblin> soultcer, there's too many of them and they don't have enough food
1795 2011-02-08 11:58:06 ducki2p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1796 2011-02-08 11:58:16 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, no?
1797 2011-02-08 11:58:19 <ArtForz> nope
1798 2011-02-08 11:58:34 <soultcer> UukGoblin: If I am a company and buy something then I don't pay VAT. Only the person who buys it from me pays VAT.
1799 2011-02-08 11:58:41 <ArtForz> at least not around here
1800 2011-02-08 11:58:45 <UukGoblin> ok, yeah, I suspected there must be some sanity in that regard, but I don't know how it'd work
1801 2011-02-08 11:59:02 <ArtForz> two models
1802 2011-02-08 11:59:03 <lfm> dissipate: ok so voluntary payments are not externalizing costs? how do you figure corporations raising prices is not voluntary costs? you dont have to buy
1803 2011-02-08 11:59:06 <dissipate> lfm, here is the dilemma. if the government does not externalize costs, that means no protest is legitimate and any protest of its activities should mean either prison or death. but if it is externalizing costs, then it is no better than a criminal organization. logically speaking there isn't anything in between.
1804 2011-02-08 11:59:13 <UukGoblin> soultcer, you pay the difference
1805 2011-02-08 11:59:22 <ArtForz> 1. resellers dont pay VAT, send VAT from buyers on
1806 2011-02-08 11:59:29 <soultcer> lfm: But I have to buy food, clothes, ...
1807 2011-02-08 11:59:45 <lfm> soultcer: grow your own, be a farmer
1808 2011-02-08 11:59:49 * cosurgi just did 'git pull && mvn package' what is the new Diablo's hashmeter?
1809 2011-02-08 11:59:57 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, I'm talking about a situation where you say buy a 5970, use it for 3 months, then sell it. You're not a company but a user
1810 2011-02-08 11:59:58 <dissipate> lfm, i didn't say it wasn't voluntary costs. a firm may raise prices for a variety of reasons, but if it is securing payment through non-coercive means, that is not externalizing a cost.
1811 2011-02-08 11:59:59 <ArtForz> 2. resellers pay VAT up-front, keep the part of VAT they already paid from sale
1812 2011-02-08 12:00:05 <soultcer> lfm: I'm no good at growing, I am a computer person
1813 2011-02-08 12:00:27 <ArtForz> then nobody pays VAT around here
1814 2011-02-08 12:00:28 <lfm> soultcer: your prolly gonna have to work for money then
1815 2011-02-08 12:00:35 <UukGoblin> well nobody pays
1816 2011-02-08 12:00:41 <ArtForz> no, really
1817 2011-02-08 12:00:42 <UukGoblin> but e.g. in poland, you /should/ pay it
1818 2011-02-08 12:00:47 <ArtForz> no VAT on private sales around here
1819 2011-02-08 12:00:50 <soultcer> lfm: That's the plan
1820 2011-02-08 12:00:50 <UukGoblin> you should pay tax even from gifts
1821 2011-02-08 12:01:23 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: the new hashmeter is short-term-average/long-term-averrage ?
1822 2011-02-08 12:01:36 <UukGoblin> in a similar manner, I'm pretty sure it also applies in a UK... if you have a big house
1823 2011-02-08 12:01:44 <lfm> private sales == "underground economy" in beaurocrat talk
1824 2011-02-08 12:01:51 <ArtForz> no
1825 2011-02-08 12:01:54 <UukGoblin> and die, and your child inherits it... the child has to pay tax... the child dies, his child inherits it, also pays tax
1826 2011-02-08 12:02:12 <ArtForz> VAT applies at first sale-to-non-corp
1827 2011-02-08 12:02:12 <dissipate> lfm, the problem that people like soultcer have is they hold two contradictory ideas in their mind at once. the first is that the government does not externalize costs because it is legitimized by voting, elections and laws. the second is that it does externalize costs because those laws can impose costs on individuals. furthermore, they realize it's power can grow out of control and also that its activities are sometimes nefarious
1828 2011-02-08 12:02:13 <dissipate> , and so they think protest is legitimate as well.
1829 2011-02-08 12:02:24 <ArtForz> after that, it just goes *poof*
1830 2011-02-08 12:02:40 <lfm> ArtForz: ok its different there I guess
1831 2011-02-08 12:02:49 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, VAT does, yes
1832 2011-02-08 12:02:53 <UukGoblin> I mean, maybe
1833 2011-02-08 12:03:03 <UukGoblin> but gift tax doesn't, e.g. in US http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_tax_in_the_United_States
1834 2011-02-08 12:03:04 nelisky has joined
1835 2011-02-08 12:03:17 <dissipate> lfm, if a government doesn't externalize costs then protesting is tantamount to interfering with private government property and activities. it is like knocking someone down on their own front lawn.
1836 2011-02-08 12:03:18 <ArtForz> well, thats something totally different
1837 2011-02-08 12:04:05 <dissipate> also, by that logic, all Egyptian protestors should go to prison or be shot
1838 2011-02-08 12:04:36 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, oh, btw, could you perhaps explain to me then (cause I don't understand that either), how can I pay tax on income from bitcoins? (i.e. I buy hardware, mine some bitcoins, sell them?)
1839 2011-02-08 12:04:49 <lfm> dissipate: so whats an example of not extranalized costs then? you cant just make it up yourself, it has to come from outside (external)
1840 2011-02-08 12:05:08 <UukGoblin> that's probably not VAT either I guess..?
1841 2011-02-08 12:05:11 <ArtForz> nope
1842 2011-02-08 12:05:22 <Netsniper> if i print the money, how can i externalize the cost
1843 2011-02-08 12:05:50 <Netsniper> hrm....
1844 2011-02-08 12:05:55 <dissipate> lfm, simple. non-externalized costs are costs that are not imposed by a third party. if i mess up my apartment and clean it up, that's a cost i dealt with internally (i.e. internalized cost).
1845 2011-02-08 12:06:06 <lfm> Netsniper: get done thru inflation then, external cost
1846 2011-02-08 12:06:30 <dissipate> lfm, if i go to my neighbor's apartment and mess his place up and make him clean it up, that's an externalized cost.
1847 2011-02-08 12:06:31 <Diablo-D3> [06:55:08] <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: the new hashmeter is short-term-average/long-term-averrage ?
1848 2011-02-08 12:06:32 <Diablo-D3> yes
1849 2011-02-08 12:06:50 <cosurgi> thanks. what are the time periods?
1850 2011-02-08 12:06:57 <Diablo-D3> 15 seconds/forever
1851 2011-02-08 12:06:58 echelon has joined
1852 2011-02-08 12:07:02 <ArtForz> "too short" and "too long"
1853 2011-02-08 12:07:05 <cosurgi> ok :-)
1854 2011-02-08 12:07:37 <dissipate> lfm, the gist of free market anarchism is that externalized costs should not exist. in other words, the ideal is that all costs are internalized and are paid for or dealt with by willing parties.
1855 2011-02-08 12:08:00 <lfm> dissipate: so your own labor? hows government spozed to pay for services? Make the polititians pave the roads? ha!
1856 2011-02-08 12:08:10 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: after 5 minutes, it seems to be slower than my previous version. But maybe it need to settle for a bit longer. (I'm mining in slush's pool), before I had 546161 khash/sec 0 bash
1857 2011-02-08 12:08:22 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: now I have 513270/497924 khash/sec
1858 2011-02-08 12:08:48 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: its best after about 15 minutes
1859 2011-02-08 12:08:52 <dissipate> lfm, law would be a good or service on the market like anything else, bought and paid for by willing parties.
1860 2011-02-08 12:08:56 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: ok.
1861 2011-02-08 12:09:06 riush has joined
1862 2011-02-08 12:09:55 <lfm> dissipate: so only volutary "donation" taxes? The army would starve, some tinpot dictator would over run you
1863 2011-02-08 12:10:06 <dissipate> lfm, law (or rules) would be the market's way of avoiding costly outcomes of war and violence. it would most likely come about by third parties specializing in arbitration and insurance companies.
1864 2011-02-08 12:10:37 <Netsniper> deed govt property back to the citizens
1865 2011-02-08 12:10:51 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: the best part of a forever meter is it shows the impact of you using your machine
1866 2011-02-08 12:10:53 <dissipate> lfm, nope, no taxes at all. 0 tax.
1867 2011-02-08 12:10:54 <lfm> dissipate: only way to make cost of army "fair" is to force everyone to pay the same wheather they want or not
1868 2011-02-08 12:11:01 <Netsniper> no need for takeover by crackpots
1869 2011-02-08 12:11:22 <dissipate> lfm, so you admit government externalizes costs.
1870 2011-02-08 12:11:29 <joe_1> lobster i was just now able to get it to compile by commenting out the for loop that uses that config file iterator.
1871 2011-02-08 12:11:35 <joe_1> of course that's not a workable solution
1872 2011-02-08 12:11:51 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: I'm not using them. They are dedicated boxes :-)
1873 2011-02-08 12:11:57 <lfm> dissipate: I dont agree with your terminology but I dont see how we can dispense with taxes
1874 2011-02-08 12:12:02 <comboy> gee, when I read you here and on forum, I so love to imagine that bitcoin is the first step towards society ruled by geeks, ruled by those that are fastest and best in gathering and processing information, and protecting from others through cryptography, properly used one (sorry for cutting in)
1875 2011-02-08 12:12:13 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: then, other than the pool communication overhead, it should be fine
1876 2011-02-08 12:12:24 <dissipate> lfm, you don't need to see it
1877 2011-02-08 12:12:42 <dissipate> lfm, do you know everything about how a CPU is developed and manufactured?
1878 2011-02-08 12:12:56 <lfm> dissipate: no one does
1879 2011-02-08 12:12:58 <dissipate> i certainly don't
1880 2011-02-08 12:13:03 <Netsniper> there is no product of service useful to mankind that requires violence in its production or sale
1881 2011-02-08 12:13:05 <dissipate> lfm, exactly
1882 2011-02-08 12:13:07 <Netsniper> of/or
1883 2011-02-08 12:13:35 <lfm> dissipate: so? you dont know how all the department in your government work either
1884 2011-02-08 12:13:55 <dissipate> lfm, if something is easy enough to say: "i know exactly how that would work" (e.g. roads), why not have smart people do it, instead of fools in government?
1885 2011-02-08 12:13:57 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: I can't put ati in my workstation. It has to be stable for years. So I have nvidia here, and before last kernel upgrade it had over 370 days uptime :) (UPS configured for tuxonice hibernation)
1886 2011-02-08 12:14:41 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: and three LCD screens and 32 GB of ram. boooah, my workstation is grrrrrrreat!
1887 2011-02-08 12:14:48 <cosurgi> ;-))
1888 2011-02-08 12:14:55 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: you do realize nvidia chips themselves self destruct, right?
1889 2011-02-08 12:14:59 <ArtForz> up 76 days, 22:30
1890 2011-02-08 12:15:10 <ArtForz> hmmm... no problems with ati here
1891 2011-02-08 12:15:22 <ArtForz> well, except for the mouse pointer glitch
1892 2011-02-08 12:15:24 <lfm> dissipate: thats just predjudice "governemnt people ar efools" no better than saying races are better or worse
1893 2011-02-08 12:15:25 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: what do you mean? :) They work fine for few years so far.
1894 2011-02-08 12:15:27 <dissipate> lfm, i don't, no, but the difference there is that the government was centrally planned. so a relatively few number of people do need to know how it works, unlike say a CPU where the knowledge is spread across thousands or even millions.
1895 2011-02-08 12:15:40 <ArtForz> which happens with multihead and 1-bit pointer bitmaps
1896 2011-02-08 12:15:40 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: nvidia fabbed at least 3 generations wrong, the chips randomly die
1897 2011-02-08 12:15:58 <ArtForz> well not quite randomly, from thermal cycling
1898 2011-02-08 12:16:04 <Diablo-D3> yeah, which is random
1899 2011-02-08 12:16:12 <Diablo-D3> you dont know if they'll be dead in 6 months or 2 years
1900 2011-02-08 12:16:19 <Diablo-D3> but they WILL die of it
1901 2011-02-08 12:16:22 <ArtForz> yep
1902 2011-02-08 12:16:34 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: ok, I didn't suffer that yet. Maybe because I don't use them for games.
1903 2011-02-08 12:16:34 <comboy> ArtForz: oh, you have that screwed up cursor on the second screen with xinerama with ati drivers?
1904 2011-02-08 12:16:42 <dissipate> lfm, where i live the roads look like a war zone after a rain. so yes they are fools.
1905 2011-02-08 12:16:46 <ArtForz> well, it should last for a few decades if you keep it on a shelf in a temp-controlled room :P
1906 2011-02-08 12:16:49 <ArtForz> comboy: yup
1907 2011-02-08 12:16:55 <Diablo-D3> hee
1908 2011-02-08 12:17:00 <comboy> yay, I thought I was so alone with this
1909 2011-02-08 12:17:01 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, so in poland, if you're buying somethign worth more than 1000 PLN from some private person that doesn't give you a VAT invoice, you're supposed to pay 2% of the price as "civil-law activity tax" or some other shit
1910 2011-02-08 12:17:15 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: wow, that sucks
1911 2011-02-08 12:17:17 <UukGoblin> "podatek od czynnosci cywilno-prawnych"
1912 2011-02-08 12:17:37 <ArtForz> at least fglrx w/ xinerama+Xv doesn't hardlock my box like nvidia used to
1913 2011-02-08 12:17:53 <UukGoblin> software is at 1% and doesn't have the 1000 PLN cap (you always have to pay it)
1914 2011-02-08 12:17:57 <lfm> dissipate: people get the governemnt they want. if they vote like fools for fools then they get fools and they deserve fools. if you street is bad its cuz you elected people who did not think money should be spent there
1915 2011-02-08 12:17:57 <dissipate> lfm, if the government is legitimate as you say, then what room is there for dissent or protest if *you* don't like what it is doing? the problem with your theory of taxation and government is that you are claiming two contradictory things at once.
1916 2011-02-08 12:18:00 <comboy> yeah we have some screwed up law heree in poland, but form what I hear it's no better in other UE countries
1917 2011-02-08 12:18:04 <cosurgi> omg, how many people are from poland, here? xelister is, me and UukGoblin
1918 2011-02-08 12:18:25 <cosurgi> I think we should stop using english on this channel ;)
1919 2011-02-08 12:18:31 <UukGoblin> heheh
1920 2011-02-08 12:18:38 <UukGoblin> polish will take over the world one day
1921 2011-02-08 12:18:42 <dissipate> lfm, so if those fools force their children into a war they want nothing to do with and send them home in a body bag, it's their own fault?
1922 2011-02-08 12:19:00 <comboy> ArtForz: I actually have some very weak card just tu run my X on it separately so I can get max aut of strong ATIs, but have you found any solution for that cursor? from you comment - it does not happen if it's not b&w?
1923 2011-02-08 12:19:14 <dissipate> lfm, your theory leaves 0 room for dissent or protest. you are advocating a totally dominate government.
1924 2011-02-08 12:19:24 <comboy> UukGoblin: I would be definitely to lazy for taking over
1925 2011-02-08 12:19:29 <ArtForz> I created a bunch of custom fake "greyscale" cursors
1926 2011-02-08 12:19:43 <dissipate> lfm, if what you say is true what right do people have to protest?
1927 2011-02-08 12:19:44 <comboy> btw UukGoblin where are you from? anywhere near cracow?
1928 2011-02-08 12:19:51 <lfm> dissipate: well some wars come from outside but usa elected bush and chaney (sort of) and they just kinda had to put up with his antics then
1929 2011-02-08 12:19:54 <comboy> ArtForz: and it works?
1930 2011-02-08 12:19:58 <ArtForz> yep
1931 2011-02-08 12:20:04 <dissipate> lfm, wow, those are some 'antics'
1932 2011-02-08 12:20:11 <comboy> that is so cool :) I'll try that, I could not find or google any solution
1933 2011-02-08 12:20:21 <ArtForz> I more or less found that out by random
1934 2011-02-08 12:20:28 <ArtForz> btw, same bug happens on windows, too
1935 2011-02-08 12:20:42 <comboy> who cares ;)
1936 2011-02-08 12:20:49 <lfm> dissipate: well people voted for bush cuz they thot he was a cool guy to have a beer with (compared to other guy) so they got what they wanted
1937 2011-02-08 12:20:59 <ArtForz> win7 w/ multihead + 1-bit cursors = random block of pixels
1938 2011-02-08 12:21:10 <comboy> anyway, about working on the same card that does computation
1939 2011-02-08 12:21:23 <ArtForz> so I guess that proves ATIs drivers *are* cross-platform :P
1940 2011-02-08 12:21:36 <comboy> -f option like in diablominer does not seem to help me much, to have usable env I need to lower worksize - any better solutions?
1941 2011-02-08 12:21:39 <ArtForz> they even have the same bugs on totally different OSes
1942 2011-02-08 12:21:45 <comboy> hahah :)
1943 2011-02-08 12:21:52 <dissipate> lfm, ok, so what about the people in north korea? did they get what they wanted when 3 generations of entire families got thrown into labor camps?
1944 2011-02-08 12:23:04 <lfm> dissipate: well when you have dictators that a whole different dynamic. very few poeple have any choice about the leader. some army guys I spoze and such
1945 2011-02-08 12:23:39 <dissipate> lfm, but even in a democracy once the rulers are elected they are the legitimate owners of the country
1946 2011-02-08 12:24:13 <lfm> well I wouldnt say "owners"
1947 2011-02-08 12:24:18 <dissipate> in theory Bush could have done the same thing. declared martial law and put people into labor camps.
1948 2011-02-08 12:24:45 <dissipate> how so?
1949 2011-02-08 12:24:53 <lfm> dissipate: evenn bush still had to listen to courts and legislators
1950 2011-02-08 12:24:58 <Diablo-D3> Okay, Im going to hell
1951 2011-02-08 12:25:02 <dissipate> you said if someone disagrees they need to leave, if that isn't ownership i don't know what is.
1952 2011-02-08 12:25:08 <Diablo-D3> [07:17:37] <Diablo-D3> OOMPA LOOMPA DOOPETY DOO, I HAVE A RIDDLE FOR YOU, OOMPA LOOMPA DOOPETY DEE, IF YOU"RE WISE YOU'LL LISTEN TO ME, WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THEY FORGET HOW TO MAKE GAMES? AN EMPTY WALLET AND NOTHING ON TV. WHY DO ALL THE LITTLE NOOBS RAGE? IS IT BECAUSE OF A WOW HIGH-LEVEL MAGE? YOU KNOW WHO IS EXACTLY TO BLAME (THEY"RE ALL A BUNCH OF FAGGOTS ANYWAY)
1953 2011-02-08 12:25:40 <comboy> you are so going to hell
1954 2011-02-08 12:26:01 <dissipate> lfm, you said we need to leave if we disagree... sounds like big time Ownership
1955 2011-02-08 12:26:41 <comboy> Diablo-D3: you are buying this stuff for bitcoins?
1956 2011-02-08 12:27:03 <lfm> dissipate: I say they have a choice. if you can vote there is your choice. if your neighbors dissagree you either have to live with their choice or if you can find a way out. you cant always leave of course
1957 2011-02-08 12:27:10 <Diablo-D3> buying what stuff
1958 2011-02-08 12:27:27 <comboy> the stuff you smoke or I dont know what you do with it
1959 2011-02-08 12:27:36 <Diablo-D3> hurrr
1960 2011-02-08 12:27:50 <dissipate> lfm, so you are owned by your neighbors
1961 2011-02-08 12:28:23 <lfm> diff and you own them too? in your terminology ya
1962 2011-02-08 12:29:12 <dissipate> me? i don't. i don't vote and i'm not a ruler.
1963 2011-02-08 12:29:47 <lfm> dissipate: but you want to impose your ideas on your (stipid) neighbors? right?
1964 2011-02-08 12:30:02 <dissipate> lfm, nope.
1965 2011-02-08 12:30:23 <dissipate> lfm, i want to eliminate externalized costs.
1966 2011-02-08 12:30:33 <lfm> dissipate: you want some changes in your governement? the one your neighbors elected
1967 2011-02-08 12:31:06 <dissipate> lfm, are you 'imposing' ideas on me if you stop me from taking your wallet and beating you up?
1968 2011-02-08 12:31:36 <dissipate> lfm, no, i don't want changes in government, i want no government because governments externalize costs on others.
1969 2011-02-08 12:31:52 <lfm> disolving government IS a change
1970 2011-02-08 12:32:04 <dissipate> it's not a change in government
1971 2011-02-08 12:32:09 <dissipate> it's getting rid of it
1972 2011-02-08 12:32:12 <dissipate> big difference
1973 2011-02-08 12:32:30 <lfm> getting rid of my cat sure is a change for my cat
1974 2011-02-08 12:33:17 <dissipate> could be a good change since if the government passed a law saying you had to kill your cat, by your logic you would have to do it because your neighbors own you and they voted for a cat killer
1975 2011-02-08 12:33:23 <lfm> if your neighbors agreed they would elect people who would disolve your government
1976 2011-02-08 12:34:26 <dissipate> there are somethings that i definitely disagree with my neighbors but somehow we both get our way
1977 2011-02-08 12:34:39 <dissipate> they don't like my music and i don't like what they watch on TV etc.
1978 2011-02-08 12:35:22 <lfm> dissipate: so it seems like the problem in your neighborhood is obvious
1979 2011-02-08 12:35:38 <dissipate> i think your problem is you think everyone needs a 'mass mind' forcing a way of life on everyone monolithically.
1980 2011-02-08 12:36:03 <dissipate> lfm, how so?
1981 2011-02-08 12:36:07 <lfm> dissipate: local conditions can influence choices too
1982 2011-02-08 12:36:26 <dissipate> local conditions of what?
1983 2011-02-08 12:36:34 <lfm> dissipate: so it seems like the problem in your neighborhood is obvious If you cant see it, you're it
1984 2011-02-08 12:36:57 <dissipate> lfm, not sure what you mean
1985 2011-02-08 12:37:37 <dissipate> lfm, i doubt any neighborhood has 2 people that agree on everything. yet they seem to live with each other somehow.
1986 2011-02-08 12:37:39 <lfm> dissipate: if none of your neighbors like your music, then its not their problem, its yours
1987 2011-02-08 12:37:41 <x6763> lfm: what is and is not considered a problems is subjective...it's your opinion that dissipate is the problem, not a fact of nature
1988 2011-02-08 12:37:56 lesley has joined
1989 2011-02-08 12:38:27 <lesley> /nick genjix
1990 2011-02-08 12:38:28 <lfm> x6763: just trying to explain democracy to him
1991 2011-02-08 12:38:29 <lesley> /nick genjix
1992 2011-02-08 12:38:38 <lesley> wtf kind of ghetto client is this
1993 2011-02-08 12:39:13 <lesley> /nick genjix
1994 2011-02-08 12:39:18 <dissipate> lfm, actually you are doing a good job because you are basically telling me all the contradictions of democracy. fortunately, or unfortunately, i'm already aware of them though.
1995 2011-02-08 12:40:06 <dissipate> "...we are free because we vote...oh wait no we aren't we need to protest...oh wait yes we are because the military protects us...
1996 2011-02-08 12:40:07 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1997 2011-02-08 12:40:31 rli has joined
1998 2011-02-08 12:41:40 <dissipate> round and round we go on the ole democracy freedom merry go 'round
1999 2011-02-08 12:41:43 <lfm> dissipate: and of course you have the right to convince me that we should all pay more taxes for better roads or we should pay less taxes but you dont have the right to call for shootings and forcefull actions, thats a right we have reserved for those governement people we call police and army
2000 2011-02-08 12:42:09 <dissipate> lfm, a right 'we' have reserved?
2001 2011-02-08 12:42:17 <dissipate> lfm, so then they own us
2002 2011-02-08 12:42:32 <dissipate> lfm, btw, i didn't call for shootings.
2003 2011-02-08 12:42:57 <lfm> your terms again, I dont see them owning me, I see my neighbors not owning me by force
2004 2011-02-08 12:43:33 <dissipate> lfm, that's because you live on a farm where the animals have already been secured. the violence is over because the cattle have been herded.
2005 2011-02-08 12:43:45 <lfm> police and army have to follow the rules and orders we give em thru the elected reps
2006 2011-02-08 12:43:55 <dissipate> now you just live in perpetual and silent oppression. sorry. :(
2007 2011-02-08 12:44:01 rli1 has joined
2008 2011-02-08 12:44:16 <lfm> well I dont see that either
2009 2011-02-08 12:44:18 <dissipate> lfm, you gave them direct orders?
2010 2011-02-08 12:44:38 <lfm> no, indirect orders thru elected representatives
2011 2011-02-08 12:44:57 <dissipate> lfm, so protestors should be imprisoned and or shot?
2012 2011-02-08 12:45:41 rli has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2013 2011-02-08 12:45:41 <lfm> if they are rioting and destroying my property sure. if theyre peacfull and not in my way then they can sit there as long as they want
2014 2011-02-08 12:46:16 ducki2p has joined
2015 2011-02-08 12:46:36 <dissipate> let me explain again. IF 'the people' elected the representatives who have reserved the 'right' to police, then protesting ought to be a crime punishable by prison or death. it is interfering with private dealings between the government and the people.
2016 2011-02-08 12:46:47 <lfm> also kinda depends if I agree with them or not
2017 2011-02-08 12:47:02 <dissipate> how can you agree with them?
2018 2011-02-08 12:47:17 <dissipate> you just said the government has the right to police and enforce
2019 2011-02-08 12:47:32 <dissipate> they legitimately took power
2020 2011-02-08 12:47:52 <dissipate> also, revolution is off the table, period
2021 2011-02-08 12:47:57 <lfm> if my "representatives" are not representing me any more and it is not something that can wait for the next election then I might agree woith protesters
2022 2011-02-08 12:48:00 prax has joined
2023 2011-02-08 12:48:12 <dissipate> i claim my representatives are not representing me
2024 2011-02-08 12:48:31 <dissipate> bingo, i should be free from all of their laws and edicts
2025 2011-02-08 12:48:33 <lfm> dissipate: and how many protesters agree with you?>
2026 2011-02-08 12:48:35 <lesley> just read your forum post heh
2027 2011-02-08 12:48:50 <dissipate> lfm, why does that matter? let's say 100
2028 2011-02-08 12:49:02 <dissipate> now it's the number of people who agree with me? wow.
2029 2011-02-08 12:49:11 <lfm> numbers matter cuz thats how democracy is defined
2030 2011-02-08 12:49:17 <dissipate> lesley, hehe. did you reply?
2031 2011-02-08 12:49:21 <lesley> no
2032 2011-02-08 12:49:30 <lesley> just read it and saw your nick here too
2033 2011-02-08 12:49:34 <x6763> the government's job is to kill anyone that resists it, no matter how rational the resistance is and no matter how irrational the government is...you only get to continue living if you stop resisting before they kill you
2034 2011-02-08 12:49:42 <dissipate> lfm, and under what logical proof do numbers make right?
2035 2011-02-08 12:49:55 <dissipate> lesley, ah i see.
2036 2011-02-08 12:50:06 <lesley> (genjix)
2037 2011-02-08 12:50:14 <lesley> but this irc client cannot change my nick!
2038 2011-02-08 12:50:18 <lesley> /nick genjix
2039 2011-02-08 12:50:21 <lesley> like wtf
2040 2011-02-08 12:50:43 <lesley> /me jsdds
2041 2011-02-08 12:51:09 <dissipate> lfm, a large number of people protested the vietnam war, in often violent ways. you are saying they should have been jailed.
2042 2011-02-08 12:51:35 <dissipate> x6763, yep, hence my comment about living on a human farm.
2043 2011-02-08 12:51:38 rli1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2044 2011-02-08 12:51:57 <lfm> dissipate: well for those people who voted for bush cuz they thot he was "cooler" than Gore were they "right". its how we all learn. if you cant get along with those who make mistakes then you just dont fit into society
2045 2011-02-08 12:53:04 <dissipate> lfm, huh? really?? so if i make a 'mistake' by pulling the trigger on my .357 magnum and blow your head off, that's fine, because we need to live in a society where people make mistakes?
2046 2011-02-08 12:53:41 <dissipate> lfm, i didn't vote for bush or gore. yet somehow i'm on the hook for the wars in iraq and afghanistan. hmmm.
2047 2011-02-08 12:54:07 <lfm> dissipate: well that is a learning oportunity for both of us isnt it. I learn what its like to have a hole in my head and you learn something else about police and courts
2048 2011-02-08 12:54:19 <dissipate> lfm, you are basically saying that democracy will succumb to dumb people. great to know.
2049 2011-02-08 12:54:44 <dissipate> lfm, we need to pay for war because idiots want war
2050 2011-02-08 12:54:59 <lfm> dissipate: it aint perfect. giving power to "smart" people would be probably much worse
2051 2011-02-08 12:55:18 <joe_1> most people understand that full-fledged democracy is wrong. the sweet spot is a limited democracy, where the people are able to make choices within a predefined decision space that the government is not allowed to cross out of.
2052 2011-02-08 12:56:06 <lfm> joe_1: yes thats what "consititutions" and balance of power are about
2053 2011-02-08 12:56:07 <dissipate> lfm, aside from bush there are smart people running the show. i guarantee it. they wormed their way in and seized a huge amount of power. many of them are involved in central banking and probably no one here even knows their name.
2054 2011-02-08 12:56:38 <dissipate> joe_1, too bad the government decides when it can and cannot 'cross out.'
2055 2011-02-08 12:56:52 <joe_1> the US and europe have long thrown away the constitutional principles of limited government.
2056 2011-02-08 12:57:10 <dissipate> limited government is an oxymoron
2057 2011-02-08 12:57:20 <dissipate> it's like being a little bit pregnant
2058 2011-02-08 12:57:26 <joe_1> not really, it's just really hard to keep it limited.
2059 2011-02-08 12:57:40 <lfm> the alternative to government os anarchy
2060 2011-02-08 12:58:04 <dissipate> joe_1, that's like opening your wallet up to someone, telling them to help themselves and expect them to only take a small amount.
2061 2011-02-08 12:58:15 <dissipate> lfm, you are learning!
2062 2011-02-08 12:58:25 <Netsniper> hey
2063 2011-02-08 12:58:44 <lfm> dissipate: if you want anarchy then anyone can stop you and take your wallet
2064 2011-02-08 12:58:51 rli has joined
2065 2011-02-08 12:59:13 <dissipate> lfm, they could try, they can even try now.
2066 2011-02-08 12:59:14 <Netsniper> what restricts them now?
2067 2011-02-08 12:59:32 <lfm> and anarchy devolves inbto dictatorship rather quickly
2068 2011-02-08 12:59:58 <dissipate> lfm, but there are potential costs of doing so. order doesn't come from government, never has and never will. it comes from the high costs of the alternatives.
2069 2011-02-08 13:00:42 <dissipate> lfm, if no one believes in government power anymore how could the dictator rule? the egyptian protests would look like a cake walk.
2070 2011-02-08 13:02:01 <dissipate> in reality, the vast majority of criminals in anarchy would either end up exiled or dead because their victims would have no restraint on stopping them (e.g. gun control laws)
2071 2011-02-08 13:02:14 <lfm> dissipate: you dont want government try somalia!
2072 2011-02-08 13:02:38 <dissipate> lfm, somalia has all kinds of government meddling
2073 2011-02-08 13:02:50 <bonsaikitten> hehe
2074 2011-02-08 13:02:53 <x6763> anarchy dissolves to whatever a significant part of the population in question can be convinced into accepting...that's the problem the rest of us are trying to deal with, since right now most people want government
2075 2011-02-08 13:03:05 <lfm> and you think there is some way out of that?
2076 2011-02-08 13:03:10 <bonsaikitten> convergence ... capitalism always turns into feudalism, anarchy becomes dictatorship
2077 2011-02-08 13:03:24 <x6763> so a lot of us spend time trying to show others that government isn't the solution they think it is
2078 2011-02-08 13:03:30 <bonsaikitten> you'd need to have some entity enforcing certain freedoms to keep it stable
2079 2011-02-08 13:03:33 <UukGoblin> comboy, nope, I live in london
2080 2011-02-08 13:03:44 <UukGoblin> when I'm in poland it's usually more around Gdansk
2081 2011-02-08 13:03:53 <lfm> bonsaikitten: stability is overrated
2082 2011-02-08 13:04:00 <UukGoblin> comboy, want to buy some Bitcoin for PLN? :-]
2083 2011-02-08 13:04:28 <bonsaikitten> lfm: well, there are fixpoints :)
2084 2011-02-08 13:04:43 <joe_1> any reasonable person today notices that the government slowly encroaches on more and more civil liberties; and further, the public supports it >51%. It's not that the people are stupid, it's that democracy ceases to be effective when it is allowed to be applied to such a wide range of issues.
2085 2011-02-08 13:04:44 <dissipate> lfm, you can never 'elect' some group of people to give you freedom. power can only remove freedom, not create it.
2086 2011-02-08 13:04:45 <lfm> and there are always changes too
2087 2011-02-08 13:05:00 <bonsaikitten> lfm: while governments and countries are unstable systems they may converge to some configurations
2088 2011-02-08 13:05:27 <dissipate> joe_1, when you let a crack head walk into a voting booth, you got problems.
2089 2011-02-08 13:05:35 <lfm> dissipate: well most people agree to limits on freedom. you should not yell fire in a crowded building when there is no fire
2090 2011-02-08 13:05:37 rli has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2091 2011-02-08 13:06:09 <afed> but you can say anything like that
2092 2011-02-08 13:06:28 <dissipate> lfm, no, they 'agree' to it because it is less costly than the alternatives
2093 2011-02-08 13:06:28 <afed> well most people agree to limits on freedom. you should not destabilize the global economy using an electronic cryptocurrency
2094 2011-02-08 13:06:35 <ArtForz> you should not publically voice dissent outside of a free speech zone *ducks*
2095 2011-02-08 13:06:53 <lfm> dissipate: yes, they agree that unlimited freedom is not desirable
2096 2011-02-08 13:07:10 <joe_1> lfm do you believe in any freedom? economic freedom?
2097 2011-02-08 13:07:19 <dissipate> lfm, right, so since they agree they don't need a ruler, because they already agree
2098 2011-02-08 13:07:30 <lfm> ArtForz: then we just have to figure out where to draw the lines
2099 2011-02-08 13:07:53 <dissipate> lfm, can't do that when the government is drawing its own lines
2100 2011-02-08 13:08:21 <ArtForz> who the fuck was *for* free speech zones?
2101 2011-02-08 13:08:48 <joe_1> dissipate, how do we draw lines for the government and make sure they stick to them?
2102 2011-02-08 13:09:14 <lfm> ArtForz: the ones who HAD the power already and didnt want to be bothered by tiny minorities?
2103 2011-02-08 13:09:29 <dissipate> joe_1, we don't
2104 2011-02-08 13:09:37 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2105 2011-02-08 13:09:38 <dissipate> joe_1, we get rid of government
2106 2011-02-08 13:10:20 <joe_1> dissipate i think that is a flawed solution because in order to ensure that no new governments form you would need a government.
2107 2011-02-08 13:10:22 <lfm> dissipate: it just seems I couldnt trust you not to shoot me in an anarchy.
2108 2011-02-08 13:10:41 <dissipate> lfm, why not?
2109 2011-02-08 13:10:51 <lfm> dissipate: with a few police around I feel you will be better behaved
2110 2011-02-08 13:11:04 <dissipate> lfm, if i would shoot you in anarchy, i might just shoot you now. are you saying i would become a crazed psycho?
2111 2011-02-08 13:11:21 <lfm> dissipate: cuz of some of the things you have expressed already
2112 2011-02-08 13:11:36 <dissipate> lfm, i don't refrain from killing people because there are cops around.
2113 2011-02-08 13:11:45 <lfm> orly?
2114 2011-02-08 13:11:49 <dissipate> lfm, most murders go unsolved.
2115 2011-02-08 13:11:58 <Vladimir> the problem is not the government, the problem is private central banks who mint your currency and laugh when you complain about governments
2116 2011-02-08 13:11:58 <dissipate> lfm, such as?
2117 2011-02-08 13:12:23 <ArtForz> problem is nowadays it's all pretty much one conglomerate
2118 2011-02-08 13:12:24 noot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2119 2011-02-08 13:12:28 <lfm> Vladimir: well that is veering back on topic somewhat at least! grin
2120 2011-02-08 13:13:16 <dissipate> lfm, what have i expressed to lead you to believe i would shoot you unprovoked in anarchy?
2121 2011-02-08 13:13:47 <lfm> seems the lure of unregulated economy tends to draw a few radicals. is anyone really surprized? grin
2122 2011-02-08 13:14:11 <dissipate> lfm, in this day and age it is good to be a radical
2123 2011-02-08 13:14:20 <x6763> dissipate probably has more reason to shoot you now than he would in anarchy
2124 2011-02-08 13:14:23 <ArtForz> well, at least they're free radicals
2125 2011-02-08 13:15:14 <dissipate> lfm, you still haven't answered my question.
2126 2011-02-08 13:15:29 <lfm> dissipate: ya, Im getting tired
2127 2011-02-08 13:16:08 <lesley> obama
2128 2011-02-08 13:16:10 <ArtForz> I never get tired of good flam... discussion ;)
2129 2011-02-08 13:16:17 <lesley> islam
2130 2011-02-08 13:16:19 <lesley> terrorists
2131 2011-02-08 13:16:27 <ArtForz> TLA-baiting?
2132 2011-02-08 13:16:28 <lesley> just throwing some ideas out there
2133 2011-02-08 13:16:34 <joe_1> synonyms
2134 2011-02-08 13:16:49 <lesley> atheists
2135 2011-02-08 13:17:09 <dissipate> well i'm off to bed, i leave the deluded and misguided here for others to deal with. :)
2136 2011-02-08 13:17:14 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2137 2011-02-08 13:17:18 <da2ce7> bed, bed off to bed
2138 2011-02-08 13:17:19 <da2ce7> :P
2139 2011-02-08 13:17:31 <lfm> oh I win, he quit! grin
2140 2011-02-08 13:17:39 <lesley> i never really understand arguing about politics
2141 2011-02-08 13:17:52 <lesley> nobody reaches consensus and you can never change anything
2142 2011-02-08 13:17:59 <da2ce7> I do... they want to argue about what system you are most doomed under.
2143 2011-02-08 13:18:12 <ArtForz> I like arguing about politics
2144 2011-02-08 13:18:27 <da2ce7> or what slave farm has has a better tyant.
2145 2011-02-08 13:18:31 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, from what I read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#With_a_value_added_tax , VAT is paid on every level, not just end-consumer-sale
2146 2011-02-08 13:18:31 <ArtForz> it's a good way to avoid doing anything productive
2147 2011-02-08 13:18:32 <lfm> sometimes you learn something. not often
2148 2011-02-08 13:18:33 <lesley> better to do concrete things to destroy the system
2149 2011-02-08 13:18:54 <joe_1> i researched the fairtax and discovered it's flawed
2150 2011-02-08 13:19:08 <x6763> joe_1: the flaw is that it taxes people
2151 2011-02-08 13:19:12 <ArtForz> well, kinda
2152 2011-02-08 13:19:14 <da2ce7> yep
2153 2011-02-08 13:19:40 <da2ce7> tax = involntary extange of goods = theft
2154 2011-02-08 13:19:53 <x6763> da2ce7: exactly
2155 2011-02-08 13:19:57 <lfm> yup taxes and democracy are flawed, tear em down
2156 2011-02-08 13:20:08 <UukGoblin> question is
2157 2011-02-08 13:20:10 <da2ce7> so no 'tax' will ever be moral, therefore good.
2158 2011-02-08 13:20:15 <ArtForz> our VAT system works more like sales tax really
2159 2011-02-08 13:20:15 <UukGoblin> have you got anything better to replace them with? :-]
2160 2011-02-08 13:20:44 <joe_1> believe it or not i think income tax is pretty fair. and property tax
2161 2011-02-08 13:20:48 <UukGoblin> (I mean, is there anything better than democracy and taxes?)
2162 2011-02-08 13:20:51 <da2ce7> Laissez Faire Capitalism
2163 2011-02-08 13:20:55 <ArtForz> yes
2164 2011-02-08 13:20:56 <da2ce7> of course
2165 2011-02-08 13:21:03 <Netsniper> democracy is fine as long as it is not diluted to less than the individual level
2166 2011-02-08 13:21:07 <ArtForz> hookers and blow
2167 2011-02-08 13:21:17 <ArtForz> oh, wait, any better political system?
2168 2011-02-08 13:21:21 <UukGoblin> yeah
2169 2011-02-08 13:21:23 <joe_1> netsniper what does that mean
2170 2011-02-08 13:21:40 <UukGoblin> Netsniper, nope, democracy is pretty flawed
2171 2011-02-08 13:21:47 <da2ce7> what political system.... none, I like to pay for my guns with bitcoin.
2172 2011-02-08 13:21:50 <ArtForz> I guess direct democracy, aka mob rule
2173 2011-02-08 13:21:51 <Netsniper> joe_1: sovereignty of the individual
2174 2011-02-08 13:22:11 <UukGoblin> Netsniper, dumb people choose stupid government which realises it needs more dumb people, so it cuts down on education producing more dumb people who vote on even stupider gov't
2175 2011-02-08 13:22:12 <Netsniper> aka: not beholden to the mob
2176 2011-02-08 13:22:21 <da2ce7> * I don't have guns, we dont' have guns for protection in aus.
2177 2011-02-08 13:22:26 <UukGoblin> democracy = endless stupidity
2178 2011-02-08 13:22:27 <x6763> i find it so funny that pro-government/violence people come to bitcoin, a free-market/anarchist monetary system
2179 2011-02-08 13:22:40 <ArtForz> yeah, doesnt really make much sense
2180 2011-02-08 13:23:03 <ArtForz> at least not from my PoV
2181 2011-02-08 13:23:03 <soultcer> Bitcoin is also a very nice design of some kind of distributed timestamping.
2182 2011-02-08 13:23:03 <da2ce7> maybe they want the best of both worlds, aka. no world.
2183 2011-02-08 13:23:20 <ArtForz> or they're simply hypocrites like everyone else
2184 2011-02-08 13:23:23 <soultcer> Not everyone here hangs out because of the free-market stuff
2185 2011-02-08 13:23:50 <UukGoblin> bitcoin has a wide variety of uses, not all of them are pro free-meerkat/anachrist
2186 2011-02-08 13:23:52 <Netsniper> UukGoblin: I don't disagree with you
2187 2011-02-08 13:23:53 <da2ce7> no, some people are hopeing to get a good blowjob paid with some BTC
2188 2011-02-08 13:23:54 <lfm> no thy enemy. I like to be able to argue either side
2189 2011-02-08 13:24:27 <lfm> not always the side I actualy beleive better
2190 2011-02-08 13:24:28 <dirtyfilthy> i think the free market will be pretty violent
2191 2011-02-08 13:24:28 <Netsniper> but i suppose there is some difference in our use of the term "democracy"
2192 2011-02-08 13:24:34 <UukGoblin> lfm, same here :-)
2193 2011-02-08 13:24:57 <ArtForz> yep
2194 2011-02-08 13:25:07 <da2ce7> yeah, well in my view the most inportant thing for us to to is to rase the barrer to attack bitcoin.
2195 2011-02-08 13:25:30 <x6763> violence is expensive
2196 2011-02-08 13:25:31 <da2ce7> atm it is arround ~ $500K of well spent money
2197 2011-02-08 13:25:41 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, you attack bitcoin I attack you, yo, bro!
2198 2011-02-08 13:26:10 <lfm> yup we all need to get out there and buy those gpus and get em runnign
2199 2011-02-08 13:26:24 <da2ce7> :P I would only attack bitcoin to spur a change that dosn't get accepted before... such as adding more tests to accept blocks.
2200 2011-02-08 13:26:41 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, ooh, 'laissez-faire' is kinda the same as anarcho-capitalism, right?
2201 2011-02-08 13:26:56 <ArtForz> I broke testnet. twice.
2202 2011-02-08 13:27:00 <lfm> UukGoblin: ya kinda
2203 2011-02-08 13:27:10 <da2ce7> um laissez-faire is the economic model
2204 2011-02-08 13:27:11 <UukGoblin> it's got it flaws too
2205 2011-02-08 13:27:15 <Netsniper> there is no small difference between the democracy of a prepared ballot with specific selections on it and the democracy of chosing every facet of your life without restriction or review
2206 2011-02-08 13:27:18 <joe_1> art how
2207 2011-02-08 13:27:52 <ArtForz> first time was a TX sig script that caused a OOM in the interpreter
2208 2011-02-08 13:28:05 sabalaba has joined
2209 2011-02-08 13:28:09 rli has joined
2210 2011-02-08 13:28:24 <da2ce7> well anyway, we need to change bitcoin so it is resistant to a 50% + attack
2211 2011-02-08 13:28:35 <UukGoblin> basically, I'm not sure if I'd like to be ruled by megacorporations capable of pretty much the same stuff as government
2212 2011-02-08 13:28:53 <ArtForz> da2ce7: how the hell would that work?
2213 2011-02-08 13:29:00 <Netsniper> UukGoblin: and what protects you from this fate at the present?
2214 2011-02-08 13:29:08 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, good luck with that
2215 2011-02-08 13:29:14 <UukGoblin> Netsniper, nothing
2216 2011-02-08 13:29:16 <da2ce7> :D well I worked it out... :D
2217 2011-02-08 13:29:22 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2218 2011-02-08 13:29:31 <UukGoblin> Netsniper, present's fucked, I was asking if there's anything better than present
2219 2011-02-08 13:29:38 <Netsniper> government is a megacorporation
2220 2011-02-08 13:29:41 <da2ce7> drop blocks that drop two valid blocks before it.
2221 2011-02-08 13:29:49 <x6763> UukGoblin: so obviously you don't understand that the reason most big businesses are so large today is due to the government?
2222 2011-02-08 13:30:01 <Vladimir> "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" âMayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
2223 2011-02-08 13:30:11 <dirtyfilthy> oh man, too much too much, we need #bitcoin-debate
2224 2011-02-08 13:30:27 <UukGoblin> x6763, I think they'd be even larger if not for government
2225 2011-02-08 13:30:28 <ArtForz> whats "before"?
2226 2011-02-08 13:30:34 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2227 2011-02-08 13:30:40 <da2ce7> :D it means that the length of time and number of blocks to be protected from will increase, but no longer can gain 51% of the network and controll it.
2228 2011-02-08 13:30:46 <Netsniper> UukGoblin: no monopoly is exempt from collapse
2229 2011-02-08 13:30:49 <x6763> UukGoblin: doubtful...the government wouldn't be there to raise the barrier to entry, allowing for more competition
2230 2011-02-08 13:31:07 <joe_1> i think the client already does this for the 6 block confirmation level?
2231 2011-02-08 13:31:12 <ArtForz> again, whats "before"
2232 2011-02-08 13:31:57 <da2ce7> say if an attacker had 51% power... he/she would just orphan any blocks that was not it's own.
2233 2011-02-08 13:32:19 devrandom has joined
2234 2011-02-08 13:32:22 <ArtForz> yep
2235 2011-02-08 13:32:30 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, yes, and how do you want to protect against that?
2236 2011-02-08 13:32:43 <da2ce7> if the network rejects blocks that have orphaned two 'otherwise good' blocks, then the attacker will need to get a much greater %
2237 2011-02-08 13:33:07 <da2ce7> see we will fork the chain excluding the blocks that reject valid blocks.
2238 2011-02-08 13:33:17 <da2ce7> automaticaly.
2239 2011-02-08 13:33:17 <ArtForz> so which blocks are the "good" ones?
2240 2011-02-08 13:33:21 <dirtyfilthy> +1
2241 2011-02-08 13:33:40 rli has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2242 2011-02-08 13:33:41 <da2ce7> an attacker will not always win the race.
2243 2011-02-08 13:33:43 <ArtForz> so each client decides which chain is correct based on... which blocks it saw first?
2244 2011-02-08 13:34:10 <UukGoblin> what if the client was offline when that happened?
2245 2011-02-08 13:34:13 <ArtForz> exactly
2246 2011-02-08 13:34:19 <da2ce7> so an attacker will decide to mine on a block generated AFTER, a block that isn't owned by the attacter.
2247 2011-02-08 13:34:29 <ArtForz> why?
2248 2011-02-08 13:35:17 <ArtForz> so "real world" mines two blocks, after X, I also do, new client joins, sees my two blocks "first", now believes my blocks are the "real" blcoks, refuses to accept main cheain even if it gets longer because it'd orphan my 2 blocks...
2249 2011-02-08 13:35:21 <da2ce7> beacause it will be making a chain that 'eventualy' will be longer... but often alice will mine blocks before the attacker dose.
2250 2011-02-08 13:35:54 <dirtyfilthy> isn't this pretty much the exact situation we have now?
2251 2011-02-08 13:36:04 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, it won't be eventually longer if you drop 51% of blocks
2252 2011-02-08 13:36:10 <ArtForz> = now a attacker with 51% can split network into dozens of diverging chains in a few hours
2253 2011-02-08 13:36:18 <ArtForz> "whoops"
2254 2011-02-08 13:37:29 <da2ce7> well, the transactions get mirrored on each chain... what happens is that the attacker's chain will not be used by all the good miners... it will get longer the same way as say an attacker attacks the network with 60% and changes the rules to 60M coins.
2255 2011-02-08 13:37:33 <edcba> shouldn't clients store all blocks of all possible chains ?
2256 2011-02-08 13:37:46 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2257 2011-02-08 13:37:56 <UukGoblin> edcba, nope
2258 2011-02-08 13:38:08 <ArtForz> *headdesk* attacker can't change the basic rules
2259 2011-02-08 13:38:21 <da2ce7> so we are just making a rule that is inforced, that rule is that you dont' go arround orphaning blocks that are younger than yours...
2260 2011-02-08 13:38:38 <ArtForz> WHAT IS YOUNGER
2261 2011-02-08 13:38:54 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, what would differentiate the attacker's "evil" chain from the "good miners'" chain
2262 2011-02-08 13:38:59 <ArtForz> you can NOT trust block timestamps
2263 2011-02-08 13:39:07 <ArtForz> you can NOT trust time you receive a block
2264 2011-02-08 13:39:15 <UukGoblin> perhaps set an 'evil' bit in the IP header, as per RFC 3514
2265 2011-02-08 13:39:53 <da2ce7> no, but if we get the bitcoin miners to be able to talk fast to eachother... we can quickly work out what one is propergated first.
2266 2011-02-08 13:40:14 <ArtForz> so... a centralized system
2267 2011-02-08 13:41:00 <ArtForz> yes, with a central timestamping server deciding "x came before y" a distributed timestamping network is easy...
2268 2011-02-08 13:41:11 <edcba> what is the problem of taking younger according to block timestamp ?
2269 2011-02-08 13:41:16 <da2ce7> no... just as transactions are very quickly spread throogh the network, why carn't we rely on that to some confedence value.
2270 2011-02-08 13:41:40 <da2ce7> I can understand say 1min
2271 2011-02-08 13:41:41 <ArtForz> edcba: errr... because attacker can create any timestamp he likes?
2272 2011-02-08 13:41:52 <da2ce7> but say if the block is 2min late.
2273 2011-02-08 13:42:05 <da2ce7> then it get supious.
2274 2011-02-08 13:42:07 <edcba> of course but still he cannot go back till 1970 :)
2275 2011-02-08 13:42:17 <ArtForz> so again, how would a client joining the network know who is telling "the gospel"
2276 2011-02-08 13:42:19 <edcba> you have still a range of acceptance for clients
2277 2011-02-08 13:42:45 <ArtForz> you have X nodes claiming A came first and Y nodes claiming B came first, who is right?
2278 2011-02-08 13:42:53 <UukGoblin> the egg!
2279 2011-02-08 13:42:54 <da2ce7> the client should automaticaly check if an attack is happening, and rase the number of confimations needed in proportion
2280 2011-02-08 13:42:56 <UukGoblin> no, the chicken!
2281 2011-02-08 13:43:06 <UukGoblin> perhaps the egg if it's small enough
2282 2011-02-08 13:43:11 <UukGoblin> *shoots self*
2283 2011-02-08 13:43:20 <lfm> whole problem of time syncronization, see ntp.org
2284 2011-02-08 13:43:43 <edcba> anyway i still don't see what you are trying to solve here :)
2285 2011-02-08 13:43:45 <ArtForz> da2ce7: and now what has that do do with aynthing?
2286 2011-02-08 13:43:45 <UukGoblin> lfm, bitcoin does it without a central server ;-]
2287 2011-02-08 13:44:12 <UukGoblin> there should be a bitcoin-based ntpd that can set the clock from what effectively "the world" believes to be the correct time. :-]
2288 2011-02-08 13:44:20 <lfm> UukGoblin: nope bitcoin sidesteps time
2289 2011-02-08 13:44:20 <ArtForz> you were arguing about "clients should decide which blocks are "right" not based on chain length/work but on which came first"
2290 2011-02-08 13:44:20 <da2ce7> lol
2291 2011-02-08 13:44:38 <ArtForz> now it's something about # of confirmations should be dynamically adjusted#
2292 2011-02-08 13:44:42 <ArtForz> WTF?
2293 2011-02-08 13:45:52 <UukGoblin> lfm, 'sidesteps'?
2294 2011-02-08 13:45:57 <da2ce7> if you make a block that is much earlier (5min) and valid, yet it somehow gets orphaned 4 blocks later... by annother chain, somebody attacked the network.
2295 2011-02-08 13:46:02 <UukGoblin> lfm, what does it mean in this context?
2296 2011-02-08 13:46:22 <ArtForz> yes, but you can't tell who *somebody* is
2297 2011-02-08 13:46:24 <da2ce7> as most of the other miners would be mining on the earlier block, then suddenly find their work was out done.
2298 2011-02-08 13:46:27 <edcba> 14:39 < edcba> chain length then smaller target
2299 2011-02-08 13:46:29 <lfm> bitcoin doesnt care if time is accurate
2300 2011-02-08 13:46:58 <dirtyfilthy> this is a dumb question but is genesis block height 0?
2301 2011-02-08 13:47:02 <UukGoblin> lfm, the bitcoin client doesn't, because it has code to adjust the system's time
2302 2011-02-08 13:47:08 <edcba> dirtyfilthy: no
2303 2011-02-08 13:47:09 <lfm> dirtyfilthy: yes
2304 2011-02-08 13:47:11 <edcba> hmm
2305 2011-02-08 13:47:21 <edcba> use the source luke !
2306 2011-02-08 13:47:29 <UukGoblin> as in, adjust its perspective of time based on the data from the network
2307 2011-02-08 13:47:30 <ArtForz> well, somewhat
2308 2011-02-08 13:47:36 <lfm> UukGoblin: nope bitcoin does not adjust systenm time
2309 2011-02-08 13:47:43 <ArtForz> it's limited, and not really used for anything really important
2310 2011-02-08 13:47:57 <UukGoblin> lfm, no it doesn't
2311 2011-02-08 13:48:02 <Diablo-D3> and now
2312 2011-02-08 13:48:05 <UukGoblin> lfm, it stores the delta in a variable
2313 2011-02-08 13:48:13 <ArtForz> yep
2314 2011-02-08 13:48:15 <UukGoblin> so uses system time + stored delta
2315 2011-02-08 13:48:31 <lfm> wild guess compared to ntp
2316 2011-02-08 13:48:37 <UukGoblin> but it /could/ adjust the system time based on the network data, hence my proposal of bitcoin-based ntpd ;-]
2317 2011-02-08 13:48:43 <da2ce7> maybe that part of my idea needs work... let me talk about the other option.
2318 2011-02-08 13:48:44 <ArtForz> and all it's used for is for ignoring blocks "too far in the future"
2319 2011-02-08 13:48:45 <UukGoblin> yes, wild guess, but decentralized :-]
2320 2011-02-08 13:48:52 <Diablo-D3> for
2321 2011-02-08 13:48:56 <Diablo-D3> the wtf moment of the day
2322 2011-02-08 13:48:58 <edcba> the problem is bitcoin doesn't take account of other node time to determine the range of accepted time
2323 2011-02-08 13:49:11 <ArtForz> well, it does in a small window
2324 2011-02-08 13:49:15 <lfm> ntp is decentralized and better designed for the task
2325 2011-02-08 13:49:18 <Diablo-D3> http://www.boingboing.net/2011/02/08/hidden-mcbain-movie.html
2326 2011-02-08 13:49:19 <Diablo-D3> wtf
2327 2011-02-08 13:49:30 <edcba> ie if all your meighbours are at +/- 2 minutes accept all blocks +/- 4*2 minutes
2328 2011-02-08 13:49:41 <ArtForz> why shoudl it?
2329 2011-02-08 13:49:50 <edcba> because 20 minutes is too much :)
2330 2011-02-08 13:50:00 <edcba> or don't remember which magic constant
2331 2011-02-08 13:50:02 <ArtForz> iirc it's 120 minutes
2332 2011-02-08 13:50:23 <da2ce7> bitcoin should reject drop blocks that do-not cointain 1 block+ old transactions that have a transaction fee higer than any transaction included in the block.
2333 2011-02-08 13:50:48 <ArtForz> *reads* *reads again* WTF?
2334 2011-02-08 13:50:49 <UukGoblin> I think bitcoin's strength to such attacks is not giving the attacker any incentive to attack
2335 2011-02-08 13:50:54 <da2ce7> so an attacker, even if they controll the network cannot block valid transactions.
2336 2011-02-08 13:50:59 * edcba didn't understand da2ce7
2337 2011-02-08 13:51:07 <ArtForz> "transactions that have a transaction fee higer than any transaction included in the block"
2338 2011-02-08 13:51:21 <edcba> da2ce7: don't forget anyone can generate a transaction (even block generator to itself)
2339 2011-02-08 13:51:23 <UukGoblin> edcba is not alone
2340 2011-02-08 13:51:54 rli has joined
2341 2011-02-08 13:52:08 <UukGoblin> if you have 51% of network's power, why spend it on some silly attacks if you can instead use it for mining? :-]
2342 2011-02-08 13:52:12 lesley has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2343 2011-02-08 13:52:19 <ArtForz> I wont bother trying to make sense of that
2344 2011-02-08 13:52:35 <da2ce7> if a block contains lots of transactions, one that has the lowest fee of 0.01 BTC... but a 1 block old transaction (not included in a block yet), that has a fee of 0.2 BTC is not included, reject the block
2345 2011-02-08 13:52:40 <ArtForz> seems da2ce7 is in "throw spaghetti at wall" mode
2346 2011-02-08 13:52:45 <edcba> UukGoblin: because you have some IRL business earning more than bitcoin mining hurted by bitcoin :)
2347 2011-02-08 13:53:08 <da2ce7> so an attacker cannot reject valid transactions that have fees.
2348 2011-02-08 13:53:21 <edcba> there is no rejection
2349 2011-02-08 13:53:27 <edcba> there is only priorities
2350 2011-02-08 13:53:41 <ArtForz> how can there be a 1-block old transaction not in a block?
2351 2011-02-08 13:53:44 <edcba> attacker can only delay them
2352 2011-02-08 13:53:49 <ArtForz> that doesnt make any fucking sense
2353 2011-02-08 13:53:56 <da2ce7> if an attacker gained 51% of the network then they could.
2354 2011-02-08 13:54:06 <ArtForz> if it's 1 block old then it's in a block by definition
2355 2011-02-08 13:54:16 <ArtForz> if it isn't in a block, it's not 1 block old, now is it?
2356 2011-02-08 13:54:20 <edcba> 1 block-old as time i guess
2357 2011-02-08 13:54:34 <edcba> not confirmed/1
2358 2011-02-08 13:54:40 <da2ce7> yep
2359 2011-02-08 13:54:49 <edcba> but there is no such distinction
2360 2011-02-08 13:55:07 <da2ce7> an attacker that controlls 51% could make everone register their addresses to be acepted into the chain.
2361 2011-02-08 13:55:08 <edcba> there are non validated transaction and there are confirmed/N transactions
2362 2011-02-08 13:55:31 <da2ce7> with this rule, valid tansactions cannot be rejected indefentaly
2363 2011-02-08 13:55:38 <da2ce7> if they have higher fees.
2364 2011-02-08 13:55:50 rli has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2365 2011-02-08 13:55:51 <edcba> not everyone knows all transactions
2366 2011-02-08 13:55:55 <edcba> at same time
2367 2011-02-08 13:56:01 <edcba> so you can't do that
2368 2011-02-08 13:56:06 <UukGoblin> yes, again, an offline client doesn't know that shit
2369 2011-02-08 13:56:31 <edcba> you can learn a new transaction in a new block before seeing it unvalidated
2370 2011-02-08 13:56:33 <UukGoblin> and yet it still needs to be able to deterministically confirm the validity of the chain
2371 2011-02-08 13:56:35 <ArtForz> you know, why not figure out why your random shit ideas everyone else had before can't possibly work on your own, /ignored
2372 2011-02-08 13:56:46 <edcba> :)
2373 2011-02-08 13:57:32 <UukGoblin> ok
2374 2011-02-08 13:57:35 <UukGoblin> back to democracy then? :-]
2375 2011-02-08 13:57:51 <edcba> it's hard for non programmers to grasp the complexity of bitcoin i guess :p
2376 2011-02-08 13:58:02 <UukGoblin> yeah
2377 2011-02-08 13:58:11 <UukGoblin> /topic it just works, trust us, we know!
2378 2011-02-08 13:58:27 <edcba> (except for scaling/micro transactions)
2379 2011-02-08 13:58:47 <UukGoblin> it apparently works with them too now
2380 2011-02-08 13:59:13 <edcba> maybe i didn't look at recent versions
2381 2011-02-08 13:59:26 <da2ce7> ok, ok, just some ideas. maybe they could be impmented. to me they sounded good. Maybe working on the inter client communication should be a priority. If all the clients knew what was going on, they could make more informed dissions, and be able to work out if an attack is happening.
2382 2011-02-08 13:59:28 <UukGoblin> I asked that question around yesterday
2383 2011-02-08 14:00:04 <UukGoblin> da2ce7, people on this # know when attacks are happening
2384 2011-02-08 14:00:10 <edcba> clients could cooperate for attacks but not this way
2385 2011-02-08 14:00:26 <edcba> it would work more like trust
2386 2011-02-08 14:00:31 <UukGoblin> there was an attack at 0.3.9, and it got fixed pretty fast.
2387 2011-02-08 14:00:55 <UukGoblin> but if you have > 51%... that's an attack by design, and you can't do anything about it really
2388 2011-02-08 14:00:55 <edcba> "pretty fast" = the time we had to overtake old clients ;)
2389 2011-02-08 14:01:15 <da2ce7> I'm just want to make the lives of any attacker that orphans all 47% of the blocks, with his 53% generator, life hard.
2390 2011-02-08 14:01:25 <edcba> lol
2391 2011-02-08 14:01:39 <UukGoblin> go and kidnap his wife then
2392 2011-02-08 14:02:05 <UukGoblin> democracy? better? anyone? :-]
2393 2011-02-08 14:02:23 <UukGoblin> have you guys heard of this zeitgeist-folk?
2394 2011-02-08 14:02:46 <UukGoblin> that made sense to me at one level, with a bunch of bullshit on another
2395 2011-02-08 14:02:49 <ArtForz> yup
2396 2011-02-08 14:03:12 <ArtForz> interesting idea, but a bit too much nutty on top for my taste
2397 2011-02-08 14:03:24 rli has joined
2398 2011-02-08 14:03:28 <UukGoblin> mhm
2399 2011-02-08 14:03:49 <UukGoblin> and they have quite a lot of "after the transition"/"before the transition" talk, without actually saying how to make the transition
2400 2011-02-08 14:04:18 <edcba> what is your zitgeist thingy ?
2401 2011-02-08 14:04:19 <UukGoblin> the major flaw being, you can't make it
2402 2011-02-08 14:04:52 <UukGoblin> edcba, www.zeitgeistmovie.com / thezeitgeistmovement.com
2403 2011-02-08 14:05:00 <ArtForz> wasnt it pretty much communism with robot proles?
2404 2011-02-08 14:05:20 <UukGoblin> they keep saying it's not communism, but that's pretty much the idea I got
2405 2011-02-08 14:05:52 <ArtForz> well, thats what it sounded like to me, *shrug*
2406 2011-02-08 14:06:39 <edcba> ouch website talking about spirituality and some earth pictures...
2407 2011-02-08 14:06:49 <edcba> that's a website i won't read :)
2408 2011-02-08 14:07:53 <UukGoblin> edcba, watch the movies
2409 2011-02-08 14:07:56 <UukGoblin> they're... interesting
2410 2011-02-08 14:08:39 <edcba> i'm at work movie is not a good idea since i bypass filtering proxy using some small bandwidth channel :)
2411 2011-02-08 14:08:41 <ArtForz> as in the old chinese curse "may you live an interesting live" ;)
2412 2011-02-08 14:08:47 <ArtForz> *life
2413 2011-02-08 14:08:49 <Diablo-D3> *life
2414 2011-02-08 14:08:54 <ArtForz> neener
2415 2011-02-08 14:09:45 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2416 2011-02-08 14:10:01 molecular has joined
2417 2011-02-08 14:10:17 <UukGoblin> edcba, well watch it later then ;-]
2418 2011-02-08 14:11:22 <UukGoblin> OK so no-one gave me any decent solutions better than democracy
2419 2011-02-08 14:11:35 <UukGoblin> so we're still fucked, just like we were yesterday
2420 2011-02-08 14:11:38 <UukGoblin> nothing new, yawn
2421 2011-02-08 14:12:06 rli has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2422 2011-02-08 14:12:33 <necrodearia> UukGoblin / edcba http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg5K07c72Tw
2423 2011-02-08 14:12:38 genjix has joined
2424 2011-02-08 14:13:24 <necrodearia> there's a follow up also at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9WEWcbfnHg
2425 2011-02-08 14:14:04 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, ah, cool, thanks, will watch, I think I needed something like this judging by the titles
2426 2011-02-08 14:14:06 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2427 2011-02-08 14:14:16 <edcba> there is better than democracy
2428 2011-02-08 14:14:25 <edcba> there is edcba's dictature
2429 2011-02-08 14:14:25 * necrodearia agrees
2430 2011-02-08 14:14:33 <UukGoblin> ah yes well
2431 2011-02-08 14:14:34 <necrodearia> the chinese version of dernocracy is better
2432 2011-02-08 14:14:37 <UukGoblin> yes. :-]
2433 2011-02-08 14:14:53 <UukGoblin> chinese have a version of democracy?
2434 2011-02-08 14:14:58 <lfm> make me dictator, thatd be great
2435 2011-02-08 14:15:01 <UukGoblin> what they currently have is deep shit, imho
2436 2011-02-08 14:15:02 <necrodearia> it's called dernocracy
2437 2011-02-08 14:15:10 puddinpop has joined
2438 2011-02-08 14:15:15 <UukGoblin> with a small enough font, it looks just the same
2439 2011-02-08 14:15:19 <necrodearia> ^_^
2440 2011-02-08 14:15:46 <edcba> dinocracy !
2441 2011-02-08 14:16:00 devrandom has joined
2442 2011-02-08 14:16:02 sipa1024 has joined
2443 2011-02-08 14:16:20 <necrodearia> In Japan there are democratic poriticians
2444 2011-02-08 14:16:45 <UukGoblin> ok ok
2445 2011-02-08 14:16:57 <UukGoblin> I agree you could just make me a dictator and that'd be great
2446 2011-02-08 14:17:08 <necrodearia> Actually, government should cease to exist
2447 2011-02-08 14:17:13 <sipa1024> ;;bc,mtgox
2448 2011-02-08 14:17:13 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.9,"low":0.83,"vol":2128,"buy":0.8721,"sell":0.8978,"last":0.8979}}
2449 2011-02-08 14:17:15 <UukGoblin> any other suggestions, as that's obviously flawed for everyone not-me?
2450 2011-02-08 14:17:23 <necrodearia> As Stefan claimed, government is the monopoly of use of force
2451 2011-02-08 14:17:56 <lfm> I want to be King! pick me pick me!
2452 2011-02-08 14:18:10 <necrodearia> So there is no such thing as a democratic government
2453 2011-02-08 14:18:23 <necrodearia> e.g. there is no government
2454 2011-02-08 14:18:31 <UukGoblin> ok that leads to anarchy
2455 2011-02-08 14:18:35 <necrodearia> Not necessarily
2456 2011-02-08 14:18:41 <necrodearia> That's what government wants you to think
2457 2011-02-08 14:18:57 <UukGoblin> isn't anarchy "no government" by definition?
2458 2011-02-08 14:19:10 <necrodearia> anarchy: a state of lawlessness and disorder (usually resulting from a failure of government)
2459 2011-02-08 14:19:26 <necrodearia> There can be law and order without 'government'
2460 2011-02-08 14:19:56 <lfm> distributed decentralized government
2461 2011-02-08 14:20:01 <necrodearia> Actually, there was a very interesting video I stumbled upon that proves it
2462 2011-02-08 14:20:06 * necrodearia searches for it
2463 2011-02-08 14:20:23 <necrodearia> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lWVVFHzuLE
2464 2011-02-08 14:20:53 <necrodearia> That is a community without government
2465 2011-02-08 14:20:56 <UukGoblin> Anarchy (from Greek: \u1f00\u03bd\u03b1\u03c1\u03c7\u03af\u1fb1 anarchÃ\u0101, "without ruler") may refer to any of the following:
2466 2011-02-08 14:20:57 <nanotube> well, to withstand well-heeled attackers (of which there are plenty) we need a well-heeled defender (govt). problem is preventing the defender from becoming an attacker.
2467 2011-02-08 14:20:59 <UukGoblin> "No rulership or enforced authority."[
2468 2011-02-08 14:21:11 <necrodearia> Or, at least as far as I know
2469 2011-02-08 14:21:16 <necrodearia> or anyone knows, really
2470 2011-02-08 14:21:18 <UukGoblin> ok anarchy as a word has many meanings
2471 2011-02-08 14:21:25 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, Check out the video I just linked ^_^
2472 2011-02-08 14:21:47 <necrodearia> Posted only five days ago, first footage
2473 2011-02-08 14:21:52 rli has joined
2474 2011-02-08 14:22:49 <UukGoblin> lfm, that's a nice idea
2475 2011-02-08 14:23:27 Kiba has joined
2476 2011-02-08 14:23:31 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, ok, there might be law and order without gov't, agreed
2477 2011-02-08 14:23:37 <nanotube> yea, that's pretty much what the jeffersonian idea of small fed, states do everything tries to do.
2478 2011-02-08 14:23:49 <nanotube> a 'distributed decentralized government'
2479 2011-02-08 14:23:54 <UukGoblin> but on a large scale, won't you effectively get people who will assemble power and use it against weaker?
2480 2011-02-08 14:24:07 <nanotube> yes, that has been the case historically
2481 2011-02-08 14:24:08 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, that is already what happens WITH the government
2482 2011-02-08 14:24:17 <UukGoblin> yes
2483 2011-02-08 14:24:36 <UukGoblin> what I'm saying is if you get rid of it, it'll re-emerge naturally
2484 2011-02-08 14:24:44 <necrodearia> Well
2485 2011-02-08 14:24:59 <necrodearia> Most of the people are not part of the government
2486 2011-02-08 14:25:10 <necrodearia> The people outnumber the government
2487 2011-02-08 14:25:19 <necrodearia> However, the government has more us dollars than the people
2488 2011-02-08 14:25:27 <necrodearia> more power and control
2489 2011-02-08 14:25:34 <Netsniper> the last free people on the planet indeed
2490 2011-02-08 14:25:36 <UukGoblin> mhm yes
2491 2011-02-08 14:25:39 <necrodearia> Actually, the federal reserve company is not the government
2492 2011-02-08 14:25:40 genjix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2493 2011-02-08 14:26:02 <necrodearia> It is separate and more powerful entity
2494 2011-02-08 14:26:27 <necrodearia> the 'government' is just a shadow or term used by various agencies to use initiation of force and control upon people
2495 2011-02-08 14:26:56 <necrodearia> If you get rid of it, it'll re-emerge naturally, if allowed
2496 2011-02-08 14:27:09 <dirtyfilthy> man, it's like living in an ayn rand novel in here
2497 2011-02-08 14:27:11 <necrodearia> for example, if I allow trash to build up in my home, fruit flies will reemerge naturally
2498 2011-02-08 14:27:21 <necrodearia> if I clean up after myself, they will be reduced or nonexistent
2499 2011-02-08 14:27:31 <necrodearia> e.g. government can be like fruit flies
2500 2011-02-08 14:28:15 <nanotube> necrodearia: it reduces down to the problem of freeriding, and reward/effort differences, between the 'population' and a 'would be government'
2501 2011-02-08 14:29:12 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, hrm, ok, to disallow it, you'd need awareness among the people
2502 2011-02-08 14:29:18 <nanotube> as a regular person, reward to being continuously vigilant is a free society... but it takes effort, plus you can freeride on your neighbors being vigilant and instead not be so yourself.
2503 2011-02-08 14:29:24 <UukGoblin> and incentive for them to take action to prevent re-emerging
2504 2011-02-08 14:29:37 <UukGoblin> also they'd need the power to take that action, i.e. guns
2505 2011-02-08 14:29:40 <nanotube> whereas to the potential power holder... reward to attack is a lot of power, so he has incentive to spend the effort.
2506 2011-02-08 14:29:54 <nanotube> yea, UukGoblin ++ :)
2507 2011-02-08 14:32:54 <UukGoblin> you /could/ perhaps start off with a small island of smart people, and educate children accordingly, and then grow
2508 2011-02-08 14:33:02 rli has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2509 2011-02-08 14:33:42 <UukGoblin> but even then... you'd have to give them the guns somehow, and how can you assure that one of them won't kill another and take his gun and thus become stronger, starting off a chain reaction which will lead to him becoming more powerful than everyone else?
2510 2011-02-08 14:34:53 <nanotube> yea you can't really assure it. even "smart people" have disagreements, fights, etc.
2511 2011-02-08 14:35:14 <nanotube> smart people can also be power hungry
2512 2011-02-08 14:35:28 <UukGoblin> exactly
2513 2011-02-08 14:35:28 <nanotube> or just think "i know better than everyone else how to run this island"
2514 2011-02-08 14:36:36 <UukGoblin> yup
2515 2011-02-08 14:36:55 <UukGoblin> "and I can prove it! *points gun*"
2516 2011-02-08 14:37:14 <necrodearia> prevent re-emerging? nuuuuuuu...
2517 2011-02-08 14:37:28 <lfm> ya smart people are assholes
2518 2011-02-08 14:37:28 * necrodearia reemerges all packages in gentoo environment
2519 2011-02-08 14:38:15 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, see you next week then
2520 2011-02-08 14:38:32 <nanotube> haha
2521 2011-02-08 14:39:04 <nanotube> there was a short story about this... how they got together a bunch of smart folks and some smart children and bootstrapped a new society.
2522 2011-02-08 14:39:09 <nanotube> forget what it's called though.
2523 2011-02-08 14:39:37 <Kiba> nanotube: where does it take place?
2524 2011-02-08 14:40:05 <nanotube> on earth
2525 2011-02-08 14:40:18 <UukGoblin> fictitious or based on facts story?
2526 2011-02-08 14:40:25 <nanotube> science fiction
2527 2011-02-08 14:40:33 <UukGoblin> ah
2528 2011-02-08 14:40:39 <UukGoblin> well, probably still an interesting read
2529 2011-02-08 14:40:40 <lfm> it really happened, they took over the world
2530 2011-02-08 14:40:50 pogden has joined
2531 2011-02-08 14:40:52 <UukGoblin> s-f authors sometimes have thought such things through quite well
2532 2011-02-08 14:40:58 <Kiba> The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
2533 2011-02-08 14:41:08 <Kiba> sci-fi is libertarians' breeding ground
2534 2011-02-08 14:42:01 <lfm> kiba that was on the moon
2535 2011-02-08 14:42:19 <nanotube> some scientists got some funding from govt under a slightly-false pretext, set up an isolated place where they started off with some really smart children, educating them to basically be nice and smart people, etc... children developed telepathy, quickly overtook broader-world science, established a defensive impenetrable perimeter just as govt was about to destroy them as a threat...
2536 2011-02-08 14:42:28 <nanotube> ringing any bells? :)
2537 2011-02-08 14:42:39 <Kiba> nope
2538 2011-02-08 14:42:57 <Kiba> I don't read much science fiction anyway
2539 2011-02-08 14:43:01 <nanotube> damn, /me feels like he'll have to go through his scifi story collection...
2540 2011-02-08 14:43:43 <lfm> nanotube: sounds somewhat like the midwich kukoos
2541 2011-02-08 14:44:22 <Netsniper> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12360045
2542 2011-02-08 14:44:23 rli has joined
2543 2011-02-08 14:44:28 <lfm> nanotube: John Wyndham
2544 2011-02-08 14:45:04 <lfm> or Chocky
2545 2011-02-08 14:45:53 <EvanR-work> nanotube: sounds like bitcion
2546 2011-02-08 14:45:55 <EvanR-work> coin
2547 2011-02-08 14:46:06 <EvanR-work> except for the part where it was funded by the government
2548 2011-02-08 14:46:23 <edcba> lol
2549 2011-02-08 14:46:42 <edcba> i only see dumb children here :)
2550 2011-02-08 14:46:50 <EvanR-work> "i see dumb people"
2551 2011-02-08 14:51:05 rli has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2552 2011-02-08 14:51:23 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, I'm halfway through your first yt link and yup, nice analysis
2553 2011-02-08 14:52:00 <necrodearia> mm, I actually didn't watch any of the content regarding zeitgeist, but that is primarily because I am not naive or foolish enough to root for the wrong cause.
2554 2011-02-08 14:52:13 <necrodearia> I watched that video, but not the video made by zeitgeist movement.
2555 2011-02-08 14:52:35 <luke-jr> lfm: tithing is obligatory, not donation. that donations do not work in a *secular* world is demonstrated by the (apparent) need for socialized health care.
2556 2011-02-08 14:53:17 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, mere watching and listening to someone's ideas doesn't necessarily mean following them
2557 2011-02-08 14:53:52 <necrodearia> That is true. However, I am not educated so well on zeitgeist movement.
2558 2011-02-08 14:54:04 <necrodearia> I am not interested in it as well.
2559 2011-02-08 14:54:16 <Kiba> donation doesn't work?
2560 2011-02-08 14:54:32 <UukGoblin> I, after watching zeitgeist, was all like "yes! you're right! yes! that's fucked! so, what do you wanna do about it anyway?" and then the zeitgeist addendum came supposedly giving me the answer and I went all like "pfft. morons. good luck with that then"
2561 2011-02-08 14:54:49 <necrodearia> mm
2562 2011-02-08 14:54:58 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: so easily brainwashed, are you? ;)
2563 2011-02-08 14:55:06 <necrodearia> heh
2564 2011-02-08 14:55:20 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, you could say that, yes
2565 2011-02-08 14:55:38 <UukGoblin> but I can /play/ being brainwashed too ;-]
2566 2011-02-08 14:55:50 <necrodearia> Similarly, I don't pay any attention to Barack Obama because I recognize not to root for any of his claims...any of them, because if I do, I will establish similarly a bit of brainwashage.
2567 2011-02-08 14:56:03 <necrodearia> Same goes for commercials on tv, but that's because I don't watch or own a tv.
2568 2011-02-08 14:56:11 <necrodearia> Also, I use adblock.
2569 2011-02-08 14:56:28 <UukGoblin> hrm
2570 2011-02-08 14:56:42 <EvanR-work> i use the tin foil hat plugin for firefox
2571 2011-02-08 14:56:45 <necrodearia> If I do accidentally stumble upon forced material, I close my eyes until I can make it go away.
2572 2011-02-08 14:56:53 <UukGoblin> I'd pay attention to Barack Obama (if I had the time) merely to /know/ what he's saying, so when there's a thread to my life, I can figure it out somewhat in advance
2573 2011-02-08 14:57:14 <necrodearia> a thread to your life?
2574 2011-02-08 14:57:20 <UukGoblin> threat ;-P
2575 2011-02-08 14:57:23 <luke-jr> necrodearia: I don't pay attention, but from what I hear Obamacare isn't socialized health care, it's merely "buy insurance or we'll fine you-- even if you can't afford it!"
2576 2011-02-08 14:57:36 <EvanR-work> get facts
2577 2011-02-08 14:57:38 * necrodearia nods understandingly
2578 2011-02-08 14:57:55 <EvanR-work> or youll be brainwashing your own dumb self ;)
2579 2011-02-08 14:57:57 <necrodearia> I don't use any health care or any health-based products
2580 2011-02-08 14:58:05 <necrodearia> well, except the occasional band-aid
2581 2011-02-08 14:58:10 <luke-jr> necrodearia: never see a dentist? :p
2582 2011-02-08 14:58:11 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, hrm, it's kinda hard, e.g. in my company I had to go through the fire training, and actually provide answers that they wanted, so I had to be slightly attentive
2583 2011-02-08 14:58:14 <necrodearia> but I could instead use scotch tape maybe
2584 2011-02-08 14:58:21 <lfm> the problem is Obama won election for the same reason Bush won. He was more "attractive" to the voters. In a different way, Bush was folksy, Obama was inspirational.
2585 2011-02-08 14:58:22 <necrodearia> or duct tape
2586 2011-02-08 14:58:39 <luke-jr> lfm: I voted* for Obama because it means the end of the government sooner
2587 2011-02-08 14:58:44 rli has joined
2588 2011-02-08 14:58:50 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, you wouldn't use one even if you were dying or in great pain?
2589 2011-02-08 14:58:51 <necrodearia> that's a good idea. from now on I will cover my cuts and wounds with duct tape
2590 2011-02-08 14:58:54 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2591 2011-02-08 14:58:56 <luke-jr> McCain would have maintained the status quo and prolonged the government's demise.
2592 2011-02-08 14:59:02 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, did you never had a toothache?
2593 2011-02-08 14:59:19 <necrodearia> In the past I have used medicines such as ibuprofen, advil, tylenol, etc
2594 2011-02-08 14:59:30 Netsniper has joined
2595 2011-02-08 14:59:30 <luke-jr> necrodearia: IIRC, ibuprofen can be deadly.
2596 2011-02-08 14:59:30 <necrodearia> However, I have since learned/realized that it isn't necessary.
2597 2011-02-08 14:59:36 <UukGoblin> ibuprofen/paracetamol I use /extremely/ rarely
2598 2011-02-08 14:59:47 <EvanR-work> cuts are one thing, serious illness is another
2599 2011-02-08 14:59:50 <necrodearia> From my experiences taking medicine, I only did so because I was taught or learned from my parents that medicine is helpful.
2600 2011-02-08 15:00:07 <necrodearia> From my observations of medicine helping, e.g. in cases of migraine or headache, the medicine didn't really help.
2601 2011-02-08 15:00:13 <UukGoblin> ok, yeah, what EvanR-work said, what about serious ilness?
2602 2011-02-08 15:00:16 <necrodearia> It took about the same amount of time for a migraine to disappear with or without taking medicine,.
2603 2011-02-08 15:00:24 <EvanR-work> if you suddenly start chronic vomitting for days at a time
2604 2011-02-08 15:00:24 <necrodearia> e.g. there's a word for it...forgot what it's called
2605 2011-02-08 15:00:28 <EvanR-work> a band aid will not help
2606 2011-02-08 15:00:34 <EvanR-work> you need to determine wtf is wrong with you
2607 2011-02-08 15:00:36 <EvanR-work> then you may need surgury
2608 2011-02-08 15:00:42 <luke-jr> necrodearia: interesting-- I knew vaccines were worthless, but I thought regular medicine generally worked
2609 2011-02-08 15:00:51 <EvanR-work> vaccines are not worthless
2610 2011-02-08 15:00:52 <necrodearia> e.g. medicine that doesn't do anything, but makes you think it does and therefore it does?
2611 2011-02-08 15:01:01 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2612 2011-02-08 15:01:02 <EvanR-work> luke-jr you are treading is stupid territory
2613 2011-02-08 15:01:02 <luke-jr> necrodearia: placebo
2614 2011-02-08 15:01:06 <necrodearia> yep, placebo
2615 2011-02-08 15:01:12 <EvanR-work> the fact that you have children is very disturbing
2616 2011-02-08 15:01:15 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: sorry, I forgot there were stupid people here
2617 2011-02-08 15:01:23 <luke-jr> won't hurt you to learn a bit
2618 2011-02-08 15:01:30 <EvanR-work> yeah. right.
2619 2011-02-08 15:01:32 <Kiba> anti-vaccine people eh?
2620 2011-02-08 15:01:45 <EvanR-work> also, luke-jr doesnt believe in the moon landing, much less a real moon at all
2621 2011-02-08 15:01:48 <EvanR-work> or a round earth
2622 2011-02-08 15:01:56 <Kiba> or evolution
2623 2011-02-08 15:01:57 * Kiba ducks
2624 2011-02-08 15:02:01 <necrodearia> If I start chronic vomitting, then I evaluate what I may have done in the past that may have caused it and cease doing it.
2625 2011-02-08 15:02:12 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: I neither believe nor disbelieve in the landing, having not the interest to bother investigating the claim.
2626 2011-02-08 15:02:22 <EvanR-work> necrodearia: if your pancreas has failed, you cant do much about it with your own rugged individualism
2627 2011-02-08 15:02:26 <luke-jr> if they did, cool. good for them.
2628 2011-02-08 15:02:32 <luke-jr> actually
2629 2011-02-08 15:02:42 <luke-jr> if they did, wtf is the hold up with letting me move there?
2630 2011-02-08 15:02:46 <necrodearia> If my pancreas failed, then I will simply replace it with a new one. ^_^
2631 2011-02-08 15:02:58 <Kiba> The moon is just a big rock
2632 2011-02-08 15:03:03 <necrodearia> Perhaps an upgraded newer version, with better reliability and stability
2633 2011-02-08 15:03:06 <EvanR-work> with your own dedicated team of doctors?
2634 2011-02-08 15:03:09 <necrodearia> Preferably an open source pancreas
2635 2011-02-08 15:03:22 <Kiba> necrodearia: we need to speed up anti-aging research!
2636 2011-02-08 15:03:24 <luke-jr> Kiba: can be made to sustain life somehow :p
2637 2011-02-08 15:03:26 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, have you ever had a tootache?
2638 2011-02-08 15:03:29 <necrodearia> yes
2639 2011-02-08 15:03:32 <luke-jr> Kiba: you afraid of getting old?
2640 2011-02-08 15:03:33 <EvanR-work> replacement pancreas is a serious subject, if we had a good supply of those, we could cure diabetes
2641 2011-02-08 15:03:42 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, and you didn't go to a dentist with it?
2642 2011-02-08 15:03:48 <lfm> kiba according to bible the moon is heavenly body, not the same as earth at all
2643 2011-02-08 15:03:50 rli has left ()
2644 2011-02-08 15:03:54 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: to be fair, good dentists are few and far between in the US
2645 2011-02-08 15:04:02 <necrodearia> EvanR-work, There has been previous information regarding a cure for diabetes but it has been silenced
2646 2011-02-08 15:04:09 <EvanR-work> hahahaha
2647 2011-02-08 15:04:19 <EvanR-work> same as free energy i guess
2648 2011-02-08 15:04:22 <EvanR-work> people arent ready for it
2649 2011-02-08 15:04:27 <necrodearia> It never reached the Internet, for if it did, it would be all over the place
2650 2011-02-08 15:04:50 <UukGoblin> ah yes
2651 2011-02-08 15:04:51 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, No, I didn't go to a dentist
2652 2011-02-08 15:04:51 <UukGoblin> free energy
2653 2011-02-08 15:04:55 <necrodearia> actually
2654 2011-02-08 15:04:55 <UukGoblin> anyone got it to work?
2655 2011-02-08 15:04:56 <necrodearia> yes and no
2656 2011-02-08 15:05:00 <luke-jr> necrodearia: just like all that cancer cure stuff?
2657 2011-02-08 15:05:01 <EvanR-work> UukGoblin: no.
2658 2011-02-08 15:05:01 <luke-jr> :p
2659 2011-02-08 15:05:06 xelister has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2660 2011-02-08 15:05:11 <necrodearia> In the past I have gone to a dentist, but that was when I was young and under my parents health care plan
2661 2011-02-08 15:05:21 <necrodearia> Now I am older and have no coverage and no money
2662 2011-02-08 15:05:28 <luke-jr> necrodearia: do you have poison in your teeth?
2663 2011-02-08 15:05:34 <necrodearia> I think so.
2664 2011-02-08 15:05:40 <EvanR-work> i do. drinking a diet coke right now
2665 2011-02-08 15:05:40 <luke-jr> XD
2666 2011-02-08 15:05:47 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: eck, that's terrible
2667 2011-02-08 15:05:48 <necrodearia> I don't drink soda
2668 2011-02-08 15:05:49 <EvanR-work> lol
2669 2011-02-08 15:05:51 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, you don't have money? I find it hard to believe
2670 2011-02-08 15:05:52 <necrodearia> Soda is poison for sure
2671 2011-02-08 15:05:52 <luke-jr> I meant mercury though.
2672 2011-02-08 15:06:01 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, How so?
2673 2011-02-08 15:06:11 <EvanR-work> i like my poison to be high tech and culturally popular
2674 2011-02-08 15:06:13 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, well how are you paying for electricity and internet access then?
2675 2011-02-08 15:06:15 <necrodearia> Currently I am living in an apartment courtesy of my Father paying for it :3
2676 2011-02-08 15:06:17 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: enough diet soda pop can cause psychotic-type symptoms; more will cause death. :x
2677 2011-02-08 15:06:29 <UukGoblin> oh, right
2678 2011-02-08 15:06:32 <Kiba> necrodearia: ya need to find jobs...like me!
2679 2011-02-08 15:06:44 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: i dont know about that, but i wouldnt be surprised
2680 2011-02-08 15:06:44 <Kiba> one guy said I need to provide a functional demo before he let me work
2681 2011-02-08 15:06:46 <UukGoblin> so you use your father's money
2682 2011-02-08 15:06:46 <necrodearia> Nah, I'm okay with remaining unobnoxious, no offense ^_^
2683 2011-02-08 15:06:52 <Kiba> another guy....
2684 2011-02-08 15:06:54 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
2685 2011-02-08 15:07:04 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: the sugar substitute was discovered while trying to develop an insecticide
2686 2011-02-08 15:07:06 <Kiba> he's not letting me work because he's lazy about his stuff :(
2687 2011-02-08 15:07:10 <lfm> oh oh soda causes autism!
2688 2011-02-08 15:07:16 <luke-jr> "hey, this poison tastes good!"
2689 2011-02-08 15:07:23 <EvanR-work> it doesnt taste that good
2690 2011-02-08 15:07:32 <EvanR-work> its like coffee, an acquired taste
2691 2011-02-08 15:07:35 <Diablo-D3> aspartame is a known neruotoxic, this is why it was banned by the FDA in the late 70s
2692 2011-02-08 15:07:39 <luke-jr> I agree, but why do people drink it?
2693 2011-02-08 15:07:46 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, I don't use his money. I have argued with him expressing that I didn't want him to force me to accept his generosity and to support me. However, he used initiation of force to force me to allow him to pay for my expenses.
2694 2011-02-08 15:07:46 <Diablo-D3> er, neurotoxin
2695 2011-02-08 15:07:47 <EvanR-work> culture
2696 2011-02-08 15:07:54 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: by the FDA? yet it's still used in the US?
2697 2011-02-08 15:08:13 <Kiba> necrodearia: so...free money?
2698 2011-02-08 15:08:18 <necrodearia> Not exactly
2699 2011-02-08 15:08:22 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: Rumsfeld, while he worked for the federal government, reversed the ban
2700 2011-02-08 15:08:27 <luke-jr> i c
2701 2011-02-08 15:08:33 BCBot has joined
2702 2011-02-08 15:08:38 <Diablo-D3> the same Rumsfeld that was on the board of the company that bought the company that invented aspartame
2703 2011-02-08 15:08:46 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, well if so then you do use his money. Forced use is still use.
2704 2011-02-08 15:08:52 bulletbill has joined
2705 2011-02-08 15:08:54 <EvanR-work> interesting, ill have to look up aspartame and rumsfeld now
2706 2011-02-08 15:08:55 <Diablo-D3> and ~10 years later would work for Bush, and then just a few years ago worked for Bush Jr
2707 2011-02-08 15:09:04 <Diablo-D3> Rumsfeld has been EVERYWHERE
2708 2011-02-08 15:09:14 <Diablo-D3> generally, if something has gone wrong, Rumsfeld was part of it
2709 2011-02-08 15:09:21 <luke-jr> lol
2710 2011-02-08 15:09:21 <EvanR-work> worked for bush senior 10 years ago?
2711 2011-02-08 15:09:29 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: yes, him and Cheney both did
2712 2011-02-08 15:09:35 <Diablo-D3> they were Bush Sr's right hand men
2713 2011-02-08 15:09:36 <EvanR-work> i didnt know bush senior did anything
2714 2011-02-08 15:09:45 <Diablo-D3> you didnt know because Bush Sr's plan worked
2715 2011-02-08 15:09:51 <EvanR-work> whats he doing?
2716 2011-02-08 15:09:53 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, Primarily no, however, yes too. I do use the apartment for shelter and electricity for Internet, so in that sense yes. But for money he has given to (or thrown at) me, is still in the same place it had landed, untouched.
2717 2011-02-08 15:09:57 * Diablo-D3 puts pinky to mouth
2718 2011-02-08 15:10:01 <Diablo-D3> TAKING OVER THE WORLD
2719 2011-02-08 15:10:04 <EvanR-work> ...
2720 2011-02-08 15:10:19 <Diablo-D3> Actually, hes just making money like everyone else
2721 2011-02-08 15:10:32 <Kiba> and he's old
2722 2011-02-08 15:10:42 <Diablo-D3> yes, and he made a lot of money
2723 2011-02-08 15:10:54 <Kiba> maybe to make up for his harm against humanity, he should contribute some money to the anti-aging cause
2724 2011-02-08 15:11:07 <EvanR-work> what was bush sr's harm to humanity?
2725 2011-02-08 15:11:21 * necrodearia would still like to make a list of people, actually two lists. One for list of evil people, and another for list of good people. List for neutrality isn't important.
2726 2011-02-08 15:11:22 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: a war in iraq to cover up US war crimes while causing more US war crimes
2727 2011-02-08 15:11:26 <Kiba> whatever conspiracy Diablo-D3 believes in now, EvanR-work
2728 2011-02-08 15:11:37 <necrodearia> And for the list to link to resources indicating why or how a person is evil or good
2729 2011-02-08 15:11:38 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, indirect forced use then.
2730 2011-02-08 15:11:41 <EvanR-work> im confused, 10 years ago, bush jr?
2731 2011-02-08 15:11:43 <EvanR-work> iraq?
2732 2011-02-08 15:11:54 <Diablo-D3> and no, it was like 15
2733 2011-02-08 15:11:56 <Diablo-D3> I never said 10
2734 2011-02-08 15:12:00 <EvanR-work> ~10
2735 2011-02-08 15:12:10 <EvanR-work> exactly 10 was the second iraq war
2736 2011-02-08 15:12:18 <EvanR-work> or was that 8
2737 2011-02-08 15:12:26 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, http://nullvoid.org/bitcoin/donate.php?d suggests you own 720 bitcoins of money
2738 2011-02-08 15:12:41 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2739 2011-02-08 15:12:43 <necrodearia> Not exactly
2740 2011-02-08 15:12:53 <necrodearia> It suggests that I have received 720 bitcoins in total
2741 2011-02-08 15:12:54 <UukGoblin> ok, received
2742 2011-02-08 15:12:57 <UukGoblin> sorry, yeah
2743 2011-02-08 15:13:01 <EvanR-work> ~20 was the first iraq war
2744 2011-02-08 15:13:02 <necrodearia> I have offered donations of my own as well.
2745 2011-02-08 15:13:22 <necrodearia> Additionally I have lost monies as well, approximately us$300 when bitcoins were worth $0.06/each
2746 2011-02-08 15:13:36 <necrodearia> Actually, the monies weren't entirely mine.
2747 2011-02-08 15:13:45 <EvanR-work> oh, 10 years later, misread
2748 2011-02-08 15:13:59 <necrodearia> And are unrelated tot he 720 bitcoin donations, so nevermind
2749 2011-02-08 15:14:26 <UukGoblin> anyway you do happily accept more of them by leaving the bitcoin address out there, so you do use money
2750 2011-02-08 15:14:31 <EvanR-work> would be nice to have 300 dollars of .06 bitcoins right about now
2751 2011-02-08 15:14:33 <UukGoblin> even in a non-forced fashion
2752 2011-02-08 15:14:55 <necrodearia> <UukGoblin> necrodearia, well if so then you do use his money. Forced use is still use.
2753 2011-02-08 15:14:56 <necrodearia> <UukGoblin> anyway you do happily accept more of them by leaving the bitcoin address out there, so you do use money
2754 2011-02-08 15:15:00 <necrodearia> "use his money" vs "use money"
2755 2011-02-08 15:15:19 <UukGoblin> money's still money
2756 2011-02-08 15:15:34 <UukGoblin> how can you possibly say "I don't use money, I use /his/ money"?
2757 2011-02-08 15:15:35 <necrodearia> Of course I use money, but not money forced upon me. I don't consider donations forced. ^_^
2758 2011-02-08 15:15:48 <necrodearia> Actually
2759 2011-02-08 15:15:55 <UukGoblin> oh, right
2760 2011-02-08 15:16:25 <necrodearia> It is very easy to indicate that you use something from someone and not someone else
2761 2011-02-08 15:16:31 <necrodearia> Money is just a medium of exchange.
2762 2011-02-08 15:16:34 <Kiba> necrodearia: ya making money off witcoin?
2763 2011-02-08 15:16:51 <necrodearia> Kiba, So far about 0.5 witcoins
2764 2011-02-08 15:17:04 <necrodearia> But I have since reinvested it as well
2765 2011-02-08 15:17:11 <Kiba> hmm, witcoin needs a lot of content seeding and a lot of users
2766 2011-02-08 15:17:17 <necrodearia> Not quite
2767 2011-02-08 15:17:35 <necrodearia> witcoin needs better and further refined implementation, interface, usability, etc
2768 2011-02-08 15:17:35 <Kiba> yes
2769 2011-02-08 15:17:41 rli has joined
2770 2011-02-08 15:17:46 <Kiba> necrodearia: the most improtant thing is a vibrant site
2771 2011-02-08 15:17:53 <necrodearia> Not exactly
2772 2011-02-08 15:18:09 <Kiba> yes
2773 2011-02-08 15:18:15 <Kiba> look at hacker news
2774 2011-02-08 15:18:19 <Kiba> it doesn't have lot of feature
2775 2011-02-08 15:18:26 <necrodearia> It's not the most important thing
2776 2011-02-08 15:18:27 <Kiba> but it's like even more popular than slashdot
2777 2011-02-08 15:18:32 <necrodearia> hacker news is nice for the content, not the vibrancy
2778 2011-02-08 15:18:36 <Kiba> necrodearia: wrong
2779 2011-02-08 15:18:39 <Kiba> it's vibrant
2780 2011-02-08 15:18:43 <Kiba> they have more comments
2781 2011-02-08 15:18:52 <Kiba> they have a community
2782 2011-02-08 15:19:11 <Kiba> it's the discussions, not the content they link to that matters the most
2783 2011-02-08 15:19:31 <necrodearia> Well, you are welcome to implement a more vibrant alternative to witcoin then.
2784 2011-02-08 15:19:42 <nanotube> or maybe, to help out with witcoin? :)
2785 2011-02-08 15:19:47 <Kiba> no, I am not interested in the business of running witcoin
2786 2011-02-08 15:19:51 <necrodearia> That is true also, good point nanotube
2787 2011-02-08 15:20:00 <Kiba> I just want to help you succeed
2788 2011-02-08 15:20:08 <Kiba> because if you succeed, the bitcoin economy grows
2789 2011-02-08 15:20:13 <necrodearia> Okay, but only if it is not forced upon me ^_^
2790 2011-02-08 15:20:23 <Kiba> just like I help fabjianhjr out until I get frustrated by his poor management
2791 2011-02-08 15:20:24 <EvanR-work> necrodearia: make your business work, NOW.
2792 2011-02-08 15:20:38 <EvanR-work> its illegal for your business to fail
2793 2011-02-08 15:21:05 * Kiba wonders if witcoin is a pyramid scheme
2794 2011-02-08 15:21:09 <necrodearia> It's not really a 'business'
2795 2011-02-08 15:21:10 <UukGoblin> what's witcoin?
2796 2011-02-08 15:21:17 <necrodearia> a seven letter word
2797 2011-02-08 15:21:20 Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2798 2011-02-08 15:21:31 <necrodearia> witcoin is at parity with bitcoin
2799 2011-02-08 15:21:46 <EvanR-work> is it just me or did bitcoinbet get completely revamped, whats the address?
2800 2011-02-08 15:21:48 <necrodearia> the more witcoins you have, the more witty you are.
2801 2011-02-08 15:22:19 <necrodearia> Currently noagendamarket is the wittiest.
2802 2011-02-08 15:22:25 <Kiba> so it's pegged to bitcoin
2803 2011-02-08 15:22:28 <UukGoblin> that'd extrapolate onto "the more bitcoins you have, the more witty you are"..?
2804 2011-02-08 15:22:40 <UukGoblin> and then onto "the more money you have, ..."?
2805 2011-02-08 15:22:42 <Kiba> I guess so
2806 2011-02-08 15:22:51 <Kiba> noagendamarket is probably rich
2807 2011-02-08 15:22:59 <necrodearia> with protein
2808 2011-02-08 15:23:11 <Kiba> no, with bitcoin
2809 2011-02-08 15:23:19 <Kiba> so he made himself automatically the wittest
2810 2011-02-08 15:23:22 <necrodearia> You mean ArtForz?
2811 2011-02-08 15:23:32 <Kiba> I once got paid 250 BTC from noagendamarket!
2812 2011-02-08 15:24:02 * Kiba thinks noagendamarket spend more than he make in bitcoin
2813 2011-02-08 15:24:45 <Kiba> I am kinda worried about noagendamarket squandering his money on unprofitable project but I like getting paid!
2814 2011-02-08 15:25:20 <necrodearia> Well, if you want to help witcoin succeed, then you are welcome to help contribute towards its success. Other than some relaxation techniques (e.g. /., democracy now, youtube videos, shower, sleep) I've been working on witcoin dev practically full time.
2815 2011-02-08 15:25:29 <EvanR-work> Kiba: dont worry, the market will eliminate you in due time, if you arent productive ;)
2816 2011-02-08 15:26:07 <Kiba> necrodearia: I help by commenting!
2817 2011-02-08 15:26:10 <necrodearia> However, my pace at development is rather slow since I only have two hands.
2818 2011-02-08 15:26:12 rli has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2819 2011-02-08 15:27:00 <Kiba> no, it's because you don't use modern tools like emacs and web framework
2820 2011-02-08 15:27:06 <necrodearia> s/only have/have only/
2821 2011-02-08 15:27:18 <necrodearia> That could be true.
2822 2011-02-08 15:27:20 <Kiba> typing is not the limit!
2823 2011-02-08 15:27:28 <Kiba> it's the brain that's often the limit
2824 2011-02-08 15:27:33 <EvanR-work> duh, youre supposed to spend more time thinking than typing
2825 2011-02-08 15:27:40 <EvanR-work> if not, youre tools are broken
2826 2011-02-08 15:27:43 <EvanR-work> your*
2827 2011-02-08 15:27:46 <Kiba> or debugging
2828 2011-02-08 15:27:52 <Kiba> bugs like to eat your time
2829 2011-02-08 15:28:02 <EvanR-work> id say if you spend a lot of time debugging, your tools are broken
2830 2011-02-08 15:28:02 <necrodearia> and sometimes fly around and disrupt my attention
2831 2011-02-08 15:28:22 <Kiba> naw
2832 2011-02-08 15:28:29 <necrodearia> tools == brain
2833 2011-02-08 15:28:29 <Kiba> debugging is very fast for me
2834 2011-02-08 15:28:32 <Kiba> BUT!
2835 2011-02-08 15:28:42 <Kiba> the bug is sometime rather nasty to find
2836 2011-02-08 15:28:43 <EvanR-work> dynamic typing is lack of a feature, not a feature
2837 2011-02-08 15:28:50 <UukGoblin> what's witcoin? I can't seem to find an answer to that
2838 2011-02-08 15:28:59 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, Ask it on the site? ^_^
2839 2011-02-08 15:29:10 <necrodearia> Maybe someone will answer and it will be upvoted accordingly.
2840 2011-02-08 15:29:22 <necrodearia> http://faq.witcoin.com
2841 2011-02-08 15:29:26 <EvanR-work> makes things harder, not easier
2842 2011-02-08 15:29:42 <nanotube> UukGoblin: basically a forum where it costs points to upvote etc.
2843 2011-02-08 15:29:53 <nanotube> where points == bitcoins
2844 2011-02-08 15:30:09 <EvanR-work> you lose 'wit' to complement someone?
2845 2011-02-08 15:30:13 <necrodearia> With the ability to receive witcoins/bitcoins from others that upvote
2846 2011-02-08 15:30:20 <UukGoblin> ah
2847 2011-02-08 15:30:27 <UukGoblin> so it costs to vote?
2848 2011-02-08 15:30:31 <necrodearia> Okay, here's a brief (yet not so brief) explanation for those who are too lazy to review the forum thread.
2849 2011-02-08 15:30:53 <necrodearia> It costs witcoins to post, reply, edit post, edit reply, upvote (and future other things not yet implemented).
2850 2011-02-08 15:31:14 <EvanR-work> a zero sum game?
2851 2011-02-08 15:31:14 <necrodearia> For users that upvote your post or reply, you receive distribution of the cost of the upvote as profits.
2852 2011-02-08 15:31:19 rli has joined
2853 2011-02-08 15:31:20 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, I think it would help the site if you put such information there
2854 2011-02-08 15:31:49 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, Yes, of course. theymos has offered to write documentation.
2855 2011-02-08 15:31:58 <necrodearia> However
2856 2011-02-08 15:32:07 <necrodearia> Anyone else is welcome to contribute towards providing documentation as well.
2857 2011-02-08 15:32:29 <necrodearia> My English is not so good though. I am incapable of communicating written English so well.
2858 2011-02-08 15:32:29 * Kiba is skeptical of witcoin as a concept but he nonetheless would like it to succeed
2859 2011-02-08 15:32:45 <necrodearia> Therefore I haven't provided my own documentation.
2860 2011-02-08 15:33:02 <necrodearia> Well, the concept is a kind of experiment
2861 2011-02-08 15:33:13 <necrodearia> There is no prior precedence that I have noticed.
2862 2011-02-08 15:33:33 <necrodearia> So, while it may be worthy of skepticism, that will not stop me from continuing to design it as best as I can.
2863 2011-02-08 15:33:40 <EvanR-work> yeah. most websites dont make you pay for much of anything
2864 2011-02-08 15:33:41 <necrodearia> develop*
2865 2011-02-08 15:33:59 <EvanR-work> or you get play money
2866 2011-02-08 15:34:08 <necrodearia> The original idea behind it was to allow users to profit from their own generated content, but also in a way that allows otehrs to profit.
2867 2011-02-08 15:34:30 <necrodearia> e.g. if two or more people share the same idea, they can both participate to establish profits from agreeing with an idea (e.g. upvoting()
2868 2011-02-08 15:34:50 <Kiba> I imagine witcoin will evolve into a paid ask and answer
2869 2011-02-08 15:34:55 altamic has joined
2870 2011-02-08 15:34:58 <necrodearia> And the more people that upvote, the more profits for that idea. This is similar to reddit where some ideas become very popular and have many upvotes.
2871 2011-02-08 15:35:04 <Kiba> where the best answer and question receive the most money by being useful to the most people
2872 2011-02-08 15:35:04 altamic has quit (Changing host)
2873 2011-02-08 15:35:04 altamic has joined
2874 2011-02-08 15:35:06 <necrodearia> However, different in that actions cost witcoins
2875 2011-02-08 15:35:23 <EvanR-work> free is very different from costs very little
2876 2011-02-08 15:35:23 Zarutian has joined
2877 2011-02-08 15:35:40 * necrodearia agrees
2878 2011-02-08 15:36:06 <necrodearia> For sites that allow no expense to users that generate content, the users also receive no profits or reward other than reputation that is limited to the site.
2879 2011-02-08 15:36:07 <EvanR-work> would binky the stop motion beanie baby get 7 million 500 thousand views on youtube if it cost money
2880 2011-02-08 15:36:23 <necrodearia> However, the site does establsih profits from building a large community. e.g. reddit receives nice profits frmo ads.
2881 2011-02-08 15:36:25 <EvanR-work> also please send me coins for that joke
2882 2011-02-08 15:36:27 <Kiba> luke-jr: are you ready to advertise this tonal thingie?
2883 2011-02-08 15:36:32 <EvanR-work> it was witty
2884 2011-02-08 15:36:34 <luke-jr> Kiba: not yet, sorry.
2885 2011-02-08 15:37:03 <luke-jr> I am not good at writing propaganda to appeal to non-intellectuals. :P
2886 2011-02-08 15:37:19 <necrodearia> My goal is not to primarily establish profits for myself from building a community, but instead to provide opportunity for the community to profit for themselves in a way that is fair for everyone involved.
2887 2011-02-08 15:37:22 <Kiba> blah, I hardly care. As long as I get bitcoin
2888 2011-02-08 15:37:37 <Kiba> and hopefully make you employed, necrodearia
2889 2011-02-08 15:37:53 * necrodearia senses initiation of force
2890 2011-02-08 15:37:53 dwdollar1 has joined
2891 2011-02-08 15:38:21 * Kiba needs to ruthlessly chase opportunities
2892 2011-02-08 15:38:32 rli has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2893 2011-02-08 15:38:44 <Kiba> witcoin seem to be another opportunity
2894 2011-02-08 15:38:57 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: its pretty easy. "decimal eats babies! use tonal like real patriots!"
2895 2011-02-08 15:39:00 <necrodearia> hmm, "would binky the stop motion beanie baby get 7 million 500 thousand views on youtube if it cost money"
2896 2011-02-08 15:39:18 <necrodearia> It does cost money, but not noticeably for the user.
2897 2011-02-08 15:39:33 <cosurgi> ;;bc,stats
2898 2011-02-08 15:39:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106913 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1950 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 3 hours, 15 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 27196.34857714
2899 2011-02-08 15:39:53 <EvanR-work> necrodearia: viewing a youtube video doesnt cost a fee
2900 2011-02-08 15:39:58 <necrodearia> Instead the user is forced to see ads, in which they may click on them
2901 2011-02-08 15:40:04 <necrodearia> That is true
2902 2011-02-08 15:40:09 <EvanR-work> i dont see the ads
2903 2011-02-08 15:40:13 <EvanR-work> im transparent to ads
2904 2011-02-08 15:40:14 <EvanR-work> of all kinds
2905 2011-02-08 15:40:15 <necrodearia> That is true also
2906 2011-02-08 15:40:18 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, just make a link saying "what's witcoin" that'll show the backlog of what you've just said here on irc
2907 2011-02-08 15:40:22 <EvanR-work> i think most people are, and thats why advertising is hard
2908 2011-02-08 15:40:27 <UukGoblin> and let it evolve into a better documentation later
2909 2011-02-08 15:40:30 <Kiba> so ducki2p does a good job of seeding the community...
2910 2011-02-08 15:40:37 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, just add water?
2911 2011-02-08 15:41:06 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2912 2011-02-08 15:41:34 <necrodearia> Youtube is successful because of the reliability and stability of the servers to handle that much traffic, bandwidth and storage capacity.
2913 2011-02-08 15:41:45 <necrodearia> And also the ease to make videos easily accessible
2914 2011-02-08 15:41:46 <EvanR-work> reliability ahaha
2915 2011-02-08 15:41:55 <EvanR-work> its slow, even on broad band, at least here
2916 2011-02-08 15:42:03 <necrodearia> But it's never down
2917 2011-02-08 15:42:27 <EvanR-work> facebook and twitter, on the other hand, are regularly broken, and are also insanely popular
2918 2011-02-08 15:42:31 bittertea has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2919 2011-02-08 15:42:32 <necrodearia> Hmm
2920 2011-02-08 15:42:44 <Kiba> network effect!
2921 2011-02-08 15:42:45 <necrodearia> Facebook has government assisting it
2922 2011-02-08 15:42:49 <necrodearia> Google does too, actually
2923 2011-02-08 15:43:00 <Kiba> necrodearia: what is this government assistance that you speak of?
2924 2011-02-08 15:43:04 * necrodearia grabs link
2925 2011-02-08 15:43:26 <EvanR-work> Kiba: blessing as fodder for a state of the union address
2926 2011-02-08 15:43:31 <necrodearia> http://www.tgdaily.com/opinion-features/53879-analysis-consumer-watchdog%E2%80%99s-complaints-against-google
2927 2011-02-08 15:43:59 <necrodearia> "us corporatism"
2928 2011-02-08 15:44:20 <necrodearia> "The investigative report is full of juicy details and if any the information is accurate then it points to an alarming trend. We could have a situation where Google has been allowed to gain too much power and influence in government."
2929 2011-02-08 15:45:16 <Kiba> the only thing we can do now, necrodearia
2930 2011-02-08 15:45:23 <Kiba> is to press forward with bitcoin!
2931 2011-02-08 15:45:26 <necrodearia> So, like the federal reserve being more powerfult han the government, google could establish similarly
2932 2011-02-08 15:46:01 <Kiba> dangerous trend
2933 2011-02-08 15:46:21 <necrodearia> Actually, this is already true
2934 2011-02-08 15:46:26 <necrodearia> Same for Microsoft, Apple, etc
2935 2011-02-08 15:46:30 <Kiba> wait, I thought the federal reserve is already more powerful than the government?
2936 2011-02-08 15:46:35 <Kiba> errr
2937 2011-02-08 15:46:36 <necrodearia> it is
2938 2011-02-08 15:46:42 <Kiba> PART OF THE government
2939 2011-02-08 15:47:00 <Kiba> corporations are creature of the state, don't ya hear?
2940 2011-02-08 15:48:36 <Kiba> is it not natural for corporations to sleep with the state?
2941 2011-02-08 15:48:50 <necrodearia> It isn't
2942 2011-02-08 15:48:54 <necrodearia> That is learned behavior
2943 2011-02-08 15:49:54 <Kiba> no it's natural
2944 2011-02-08 15:50:01 <Kiba> all organizations strive for moar power!
2945 2011-02-08 15:50:01 <necrodearia> Like Florida orange juice?
2946 2011-02-08 15:50:06 <Kiba> even that puny charity
2947 2011-02-08 15:50:21 <Kiba> mission creeps!
2948 2011-02-08 15:50:29 <necrodearia> zerg attack?
2949 2011-02-08 15:51:08 <Kiba> organizations don't like to die when their goal is accomplished
2950 2011-02-08 15:51:11 <Kiba> so they make new one
2951 2011-02-08 15:51:18 pogden has joined
2952 2011-02-08 15:51:20 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2953 2011-02-08 15:51:34 <necrodearia> That statement is inaccurate in general.
2954 2011-02-08 15:51:57 <necrodearia> e.g. if I were an organization and wanted to suicide, would you disregard me existence and make claim that organizations don't like to die?
2955 2011-02-08 15:52:02 <necrodearia> s/me/my/
2956 2011-02-08 15:52:24 <Kiba> survival of the fittest prefer organizations that make new missions over organizations that don't
2957 2011-02-08 15:52:56 <Kiba> it's like cancer. The survival of the fittest is cells that divided the most, resist the cancer intervention the most, etc
2958 2011-02-08 15:53:09 <necrodearia> I can fit into tight or narrowly accessible places, but I am not fit.
2959 2011-02-08 15:53:15 <Kiba> clearly sinister
2960 2011-02-08 15:54:04 <Kiba> the type of organizations that tend to develop and stay the longest are organizations and insitution that make itself persists
2961 2011-02-08 15:54:08 <necrodearia> Although, I may be fit enough to fit in as witcoin developer. However, if someone would like to survivably overcome my fitness and take over my position, you're welcome to.
2962 2011-02-08 15:54:43 <Kiba> what we need is organizational apothosis!
2963 2011-02-08 15:55:08 <necrodearia> Perhaps lead by beardyman
2964 2011-02-08 15:55:12 <Kiba> when an insitution done its job in accomplishing a goal, it self destruct and disperse the resources to othe insitutions
2965 2011-02-08 15:56:25 <Kiba> thus preventing cancerous and parasital growth in human society
2966 2011-02-08 16:01:09 <citiz3n_zzZZzZ> ;;bc,mtgox
2967 2011-02-08 16:01:09 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8979,"low":0.835,"vol":1480,"buy":0.8617,"sell":0.895,"last":0.8978}}
2968 2011-02-08 16:06:18 <EvanR-work> there should be a godwin's law where s/nazi/cancer/
2969 2011-02-08 16:06:35 <EvanR-work> 'open source is cancer'
2970 2011-02-08 16:10:32 * Netsniper calls the amber lamps
2971 2011-02-08 16:10:53 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2972 2011-02-08 16:14:44 citiz3n_zzZZzZ is now known as citiz3n
2973 2011-02-08 16:16:55 <necrodearia> From today's broadcast on http://democracynow.org starting at 21:16, "What we learnt yesterday is that power belong to the people, not to the thugs. Power is in unity, not in division. Yesterday, we truly lived the best moments of our lives. We learned that the Egyptian people are not chaotic or disorderly. The government keeps saying that we are chaotic people, and a revolution will lead to chaos. Yesterday, we were truly one hand,
2974 2011-02-08 16:16:55 <necrodearia> concerned for one another. Yesterday, not even one girl was harassed, even among those thousands. No one stole anything. No one struck anyone. No fights broke out."
2975 2011-02-08 16:17:38 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
2976 2011-02-08 16:17:49 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, You suggested that without government, leads to anarchy. Based on the organizing by the people in Egypt, it seems there is no anarchy.
2977 2011-02-08 16:17:53 <UukGoblin> oh? what happened yesterday?
2978 2011-02-08 16:18:02 <UukGoblin> I was in a pub
2979 2011-02-08 16:18:08 dukeleto has joined
2980 2011-02-08 16:18:18 <necrodearia> and that there is law and order
2981 2011-02-08 16:18:32 <necrodearia> Check out yesterday's and today's broadcast at the site if you have time, about 1hr each.
2982 2011-02-08 16:18:33 <EvanR-work> its a good idea for the people to be calm and orderly, but they arent going to overthrow the government that way
2983 2011-02-08 16:18:50 <necrodearia> Yesterday's show was nice.
2984 2011-02-08 16:18:52 <UukGoblin> there is law in a government-less country?
2985 2011-02-08 16:18:54 <EvanR-work> its the government who is inciting violence, and through that, they will 'overthrow the people'
2986 2011-02-08 16:19:12 <UukGoblin> who's enforcing it?
2987 2011-02-08 16:19:25 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, There was natural order and law before government established 70-120 years ago (whenever it did)
2988 2011-02-08 16:19:26 <EvanR-work> UukGoblin: no, theres no law
2989 2011-02-08 16:19:28 <UukGoblin> anarchy doesn't imply disorder
2990 2011-02-08 16:19:30 <necrodearia> the us government, that is
2991 2011-02-08 16:19:34 pogden has joined
2992 2011-02-08 16:19:34 <EvanR-work> no law doesnst imply disorder
2993 2011-02-08 16:19:43 <necrodearia> s/law //
2994 2011-02-08 16:19:50 <UukGoblin> anarchy = no government
2995 2011-02-08 16:19:53 * necrodearia agrees with no law and that law doesn't imply disorder
2996 2011-02-08 16:19:54 <UukGoblin> in my understanding
2997 2011-02-08 16:20:07 <UukGoblin> but the word is open to interpretation and has many meanings
2998 2011-02-08 16:20:09 <EvanR-work> but no law brings up interesting problems
2999 2011-02-08 16:20:11 <prax> anarchy = no rulers
3000 2011-02-08 16:20:11 <necrodearia> law is contributory towards monopolizing force and control
3001 2011-02-08 16:20:34 <necrodearia> Anarchy may mean no government, but no government does not mean anarchty
3002 2011-02-08 16:20:42 <UukGoblin> heh
3003 2011-02-08 16:20:46 <Kiba> anarchy is laws without rulers as I understood it
3004 2011-02-08 16:20:47 <prax> you're mixing meanings
3005 2011-02-08 16:20:48 <EvanR-work> government == law enforcement
3006 2011-02-08 16:20:51 <prax> necro
3007 2011-02-08 16:21:00 <necrodearia> s/mean/imply/ ?
3008 2011-02-08 16:21:09 <prax> ?
3009 2011-02-08 16:21:09 <UukGoblin> first meaning on wikipedia: "No rulership or enforced authority."
3010 2011-02-08 16:21:21 <EvanR-work> Kiba: laws maybe, but not enforcement
3011 2011-02-08 16:21:23 <prax> government != law enforcement
3012 2011-02-08 16:21:25 <UukGoblin> third: "Absence of government"
3013 2011-02-08 16:21:35 <EvanR-work> prax: oh?
3014 2011-02-08 16:21:42 <prax> government = monopoly on being the final arbiter in a certain territory
3015 2011-02-08 16:22:09 * necrodearia suggests there to be a vocabulary that can better depict accurate definitions
3016 2011-02-08 16:22:18 <EvanR-work> how do you go about enforcing arbitrary law without governemnt-like activity
3017 2011-02-08 16:22:31 <EvanR-work> (specific laws enforce themselves)
3018 2011-02-08 16:22:34 * necrodearia has successfully become a vocabulary that can better depict accurate definitions.
3019 2011-02-08 16:23:03 <UukGoblin> 161137 <@UukGoblin> oh? what happened yesterday?
3020 2011-02-08 16:23:04 * Kiba ponders the advent of bitcoin common laws
3021 2011-02-08 16:23:28 <UukGoblin> guys, srsly, what happened yesterday?
3022 2011-02-08 16:23:32 <necrodearia> watch the video?
3023 2011-02-08 16:23:42 <EvanR-work> nothing as far as i know
3024 2011-02-08 16:23:44 <Kiba> we are not large enough to fermates the formation of abritation, contract rules, and such
3025 2011-02-08 16:23:54 <citiz3n> there are only two ways to deal with people: by reason or force
3026 2011-02-08 16:23:57 <EvanR-work> Kiba: do we want that?
3027 2011-02-08 16:23:58 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, what video? I watched three already, can't really watch any more now
3028 2011-02-08 16:24:05 <citiz3n> threat of force and coercion also fall under the force category
3029 2011-02-08 16:24:17 <EvanR-work> citiz3n: agression right
3030 2011-02-08 16:24:22 <necrodearia> http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2011/2/7
3031 2011-02-08 16:24:23 <Kiba> EvanR-work: there are nobody who can jail you
3032 2011-02-08 16:24:29 <citiz3n> we would be much better off living without the threat of force
3033 2011-02-08 16:24:33 <EvanR-work> Kiba: right, and?
3034 2011-02-08 16:24:49 <citiz3n> and dealing with one another on a respectful and level playing field
3035 2011-02-08 16:24:57 <Kiba> EvanR-work: but the bitcoin economy need dispute resolution
3036 2011-02-08 16:25:00 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, ok, doesn't work
3037 2011-02-08 16:25:02 <Kiba> someday
3038 2011-02-08 16:25:08 <EvanR-work> Kiba: it does?
3039 2011-02-08 16:25:08 <UukGoblin> but nvmd, I'll try some other time
3040 2011-02-08 16:25:11 <Kiba> it will largely be trust based
3041 2011-02-08 16:25:13 <citiz3n> there are third party services for such a thing
3042 2011-02-08 16:25:19 <EvanR-work> Kiba: what happened to 'let the buyer beware'
3043 2011-02-08 16:25:22 <Kiba> EvanR-work: eventually, there will be dispute between parties
3044 2011-02-08 16:25:23 <citiz3n> you can go through escrow services as well like clearcoin
3045 2011-02-08 16:25:28 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/7/stream
3046 2011-02-08 16:25:31 <citiz3n> there doesn't "need" to be any centralized "authority"
3047 2011-02-08 16:25:34 <Kiba> citiz3n: yeah, clearcoin
3048 2011-02-08 16:25:34 <EvanR-work> Kiba: where there is no recourse, there is no dispute ;)
3049 2011-02-08 16:25:38 <prax> law associated with bitcoin nowadays is teh threat of being shut down because it runs counter to states
3050 2011-02-08 16:25:49 <citiz3n> democracy now: yuck
3051 2011-02-08 16:26:03 <citiz3n> democracy is two wolves and a sheep arguing over what's for lunch :)
3052 2011-02-08 16:26:08 <Kiba> EvanR-work: merchant courts
3053 2011-02-08 16:26:09 <EvanR-work> haha
3054 2011-02-08 16:26:19 <EvanR-work> Kiba: its adding epicycles
3055 2011-02-08 16:26:30 <citiz3n> the founders of America thought democracy was one of the worst forms of government there is
3056 2011-02-08 16:26:34 <Kiba> epicycles?
3057 2011-02-08 16:26:39 <citiz3n> that's why they created a republic instead
3058 2011-02-08 16:26:46 <EvanR-work> people can enter into agreements between themselves, dont get anyone else involved
3059 2011-02-08 16:26:49 <Kiba> but a republic doesn't work either
3060 2011-02-08 16:26:56 <citiz3n> correct
3061 2011-02-08 16:27:06 <EvanR-work> citiz3n: 'everything sucks, its just a matter of what sucks least' ;)
3062 2011-02-08 16:27:07 <citiz3n> im only saying it's more desirable than democracy
3063 2011-02-08 16:27:08 <Kiba> EvanR-work: so? It doesn't mean that they don't agree to use an abritation service in case of a dispute
3064 2011-02-08 16:27:20 <EvanR-work> Kiba: yes, so three people entering into agreement
3065 2011-02-08 16:27:25 <Kiba> the court would work toward a compromise
3066 2011-02-08 16:27:34 <citiz3n> a republic founded upon the strong ideal of individual sovereignty might not be too bad
3067 2011-02-08 16:27:38 <EvanR-work> but dont appoint a guy to be arbiter if he doesnt want to be
3068 2011-02-08 16:27:46 <UukGoblin> necrodearia, jesus, whole hour
3069 2011-02-08 16:27:52 <citiz3n> it's not a problem with government though, because government is not real
3070 2011-02-08 16:27:54 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3071 2011-02-08 16:27:57 <citiz3n> government is only a fiction - an idea
3072 2011-02-08 16:28:05 <citiz3n> people are real
3073 2011-02-08 16:28:11 <Kiba> trust is one of the most precious commodity in the bitcoin economy
3074 2011-02-08 16:28:11 <citiz3n> a man is real, a woman is real
3075 2011-02-08 16:28:18 <UukGoblin> am I real?
3076 2011-02-08 16:28:29 <citiz3n> a group of men/women is simply more than one joined by an idea
3077 2011-02-08 16:28:30 <UukGoblin> are /you/ real?
3078 2011-02-08 16:28:30 <x6763> UukGoblin: sorry, goblin's aren't real
3079 2011-02-08 16:28:31 <necrodearia> UukGoblin, ^_^
3080 2011-02-08 16:28:36 <citiz3n> so a group is also a fiction
3081 2011-02-08 16:28:43 <citiz3n> you still only have individuals
3082 2011-02-08 16:28:45 <EvanR-work> citiz3n: the practical reality of a government isnt fiction or theoretical. its that band of pirates taking over ships, its the taliban, its alqueda, and its a few other groups i wont mention in this channel
3083 2011-02-08 16:28:45 <necrodearia> witcoin is fiction
3084 2011-02-08 16:29:08 <EvanR-work> i.e. using agressions to get what they want from other 'governments'
3085 2011-02-08 16:29:17 <necrodearia> there is no such thing as "anonymous" just as there is no such thing as "government"
3086 2011-02-08 16:29:23 <necrodearia> government is not anonymous and comprises of people
3087 2011-02-08 16:29:28 <citiz3n> well, it is a lot like the open sea :)
3088 2011-02-08 16:29:32 <EvanR-work> yes
3089 2011-02-08 16:29:33 <citiz3n> and piratism is popular
3090 2011-02-08 16:29:49 <UukGoblin> there is no such thing as 'such thing'
3091 2011-02-08 16:29:51 <citiz3n> im only saying the problem stems mostly from lack of understanding
3092 2011-02-08 16:29:56 <EvanR-work> there aint no such thing as a
3093 2011-02-08 16:30:01 <citiz3n> lack of understanding of who/what we are
3094 2011-02-08 16:30:07 <EvanR-work> im not a governemnt
3095 2011-02-08 16:30:10 <citiz3n> that we are accountable to none but ourselves
3096 2011-02-08 16:30:16 <EvanR-work> people can act not as governments do
3097 2011-02-08 16:30:20 <EvanR-work> its not impossible
3098 2011-02-08 16:30:24 <UukGoblin> this statement is false!
3099 2011-02-08 16:30:37 <EvanR-work> citiz3n: anarchy of one ;)
3100 2011-02-08 16:30:37 <citiz3n> an individual could never get away with what a group of individuals will get away with
3101 2011-02-08 16:30:50 <EvanR-work> safety in numbers
3102 2011-02-08 16:31:01 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3103 2011-02-08 16:31:04 <citiz3n> yup, and that's another concept not commonly understood
3104 2011-02-08 16:31:14 <citiz3n> groups of people put on suits or uniforms, fancy hats
3105 2011-02-08 16:31:17 <x6763> ;;bt,mtgox
3106 2011-02-08 16:31:17 <gribble> Error: "bt,mtgox" is not a valid command.
3107 2011-02-08 16:31:20 <x6763> ;;bc,mtgox
3108 2011-02-08 16:31:21 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8979,"low":0.835,"vol":1580,"buy":0.8618,"sell":0.897,"last":0.895}}
3109 2011-02-08 16:31:23 <citiz3n> and everyone thinks thinks are the way they ought to be
3110 2011-02-08 16:31:26 genjix has joined
3111 2011-02-08 16:31:41 <Kiba> everybody thinks they're right because wrong is not transparent
3112 2011-02-08 16:32:12 <citiz3n> ;;bc,calc 1400000
3113 2011-02-08 16:32:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 22 hours, 9 minutes, and 17 seconds
3114 2011-02-08 16:34:53 <citiz3n> the problem with man's law is it always fails to recognize natural law, which is higher
3115 2011-02-08 16:35:15 <citiz3n> this causes a (for lack of better phrase) "imbalance in the force" :D
3116 2011-02-08 16:35:38 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
3117 2011-02-08 16:35:41 <citiz3n> it should eventually right itself though
3118 2011-02-08 16:35:46 bubust00br has joined
3119 2011-02-08 16:36:06 <citiz3n> hey bubust00br
3120 2011-02-08 16:36:11 <bubust00br> hey
3121 2011-02-08 16:39:48 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 15000
3122 2011-02-08 16:39:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 15000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 12 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 46 minutes, and 42 seconds
3123 2011-02-08 16:41:26 <UukGoblin> hm...
3124 2011-02-08 16:41:37 <UukGoblin> if the block's validity can't depend on the timestamp...
3125 2011-02-08 16:41:51 <UukGoblin> how can you verify that the difficulty has been adjusted correctly?
3126 2011-02-08 16:42:09 <nanotube> there's an acceptable time window for block timestamp
3127 2011-02-08 16:42:28 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki timestamp
3128 2011-02-08 16:42:31 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_timestamp | Jan 13, 2011 ... Each block contains a Unix time timestamp. In addition to serving as a source of variation for the block hash, there are also validity ...
3129 2011-02-08 16:42:33 <UukGoblin> yes but... if a client is offline... it doesn't know the block's timestamp
3130 2011-02-08 16:42:51 <UukGoblin> well yes but people can put incorrect timestamps...
3131 2011-02-08 16:43:08 bulletbill has left ()
3132 2011-02-08 16:43:20 zapa has joined
3133 2011-02-08 16:43:56 <nanotube> UukGoblin: yes, but if it is within required window, block is accepted, and its timestamp is used as "the block timestamp"
3134 2011-02-08 16:44:27 <nanotube> there's an actual field in the block, for the timestamp
3135 2011-02-08 16:44:42 <UukGoblin> so there have to be clients actually online to validate and accept it...
3136 2011-02-08 16:45:05 <nanotube> heh at least one client to generate, and one client to accept hehe
3137 2011-02-08 16:47:22 zapa has quit (Client Quit)
3138 2011-02-08 16:47:24 <UukGoblin> so in addition to timestamp's accepted window, the clients could do more checks...
3139 2011-02-08 16:47:49 <UukGoblin> i.e. what da2ce7 suggested..?
3140 2011-02-08 16:49:55 <nanotube> they could - but from where i sit, i can see it leading to a bunch of chain forking.
3141 2011-02-08 16:50:13 <UukGoblin> right, ok, just wanted to check
3142 2011-02-08 16:50:22 <nanotube> the current situation of "whatever block happens to get the longes chain built upon it" seems to me the only way to avoid forking
3143 2011-02-08 16:51:27 <UukGoblin> current is "the longest with a valid last timestamp", or something like that
3144 2011-02-08 16:51:51 <nanotube> yea something like that. :)
3145 2011-02-08 16:52:16 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: difficulty doesn't care about time
3146 2011-02-08 16:52:34 <nanotube> luke-jr: quite the opposite
3147 2011-02-08 16:52:35 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, what? how?
3148 2011-02-08 16:52:38 <nanotube> it cares about time a lot
3149 2011-02-08 16:52:49 <genjix> MT`AwAy: hey, you here?
3150 2011-02-08 16:52:52 <nanotube> it depends on time it took to create prev 2016 blocks
3151 2011-02-08 16:53:36 lfm has quit (Quit: bye)
3152 2011-02-08 16:53:37 <luke-jr> oh, true
3153 2011-02-08 16:54:04 <luke-jr> but so long as it's within the valid window, it's probably fine
3154 2011-02-08 16:54:08 <luke-jr> hmm
3155 2011-02-08 16:54:35 <luke-jr> I motion that all miners create "first blocks" with as late a timestamps as possible, and "last blocks" with as early a timestamp as possible
3156 2011-02-08 16:54:36 <luke-jr> :p
3157 2011-02-08 16:54:44 RazielZ has joined
3158 2011-02-08 16:54:51 <UukGoblin> heheh
3159 2011-02-08 16:55:05 <UukGoblin> yup, potential for abuse right there :-]
3160 2011-02-08 16:56:23 <UukGoblin> you could also make the middle blocks to be as early as possible, to make the last block's "earliest possible" value lower
3161 2011-02-08 16:56:43 <UukGoblin> because from what the link reads, the earlier possible is the median of the timestamps of last 11 blocks
3162 2011-02-08 16:57:04 <UukGoblin> s/earlier/earliest/
3163 2011-02-08 16:57:55 <UukGoblin> but actually if you want to make difficulty lower, you should make the first block as early as possible and the last one as late as possible ;-]
3164 2011-02-08 17:02:50 <tcatm> first block as early as possible (median of 11 previous blocks + 1) and all following blocks with ntime = lastblock + 2h
3165 2011-02-08 17:04:25 <nanotube> so all you get is an extra 2 hours or so, for two weeks' worth of blocks.
3166 2011-02-08 17:04:33 <nanotube> no incentive
3167 2011-02-08 17:05:10 <tcatm> hm?
3168 2011-02-08 17:05:56 <nanotube> max time a block can be in the future is network-adjusted-time+2h
3169 2011-02-08 17:06:04 <tcatm> generating 2016 blocks would still take about two weeks but the timestamps of first and last blocks would be spaced 6 months
3170 2011-02-08 17:06:11 <nanotube> network-adjusted-time is median timestamp of all clients you're connected to.
3171 2011-02-08 17:06:27 <nanotube> so clients won't accept a block that's 6 months in the future
3172 2011-02-08 17:06:30 <luke-jr> nanotube: I count 6 hours
3173 2011-02-08 17:06:52 <tcatm> This was assuming that all miners agree to lower difficulty ;)
3174 2011-02-08 17:06:54 altamic has joined
3175 2011-02-08 17:06:54 altamic has quit (Changing host)
3176 2011-02-08 17:06:54 altamic has joined
3177 2011-02-08 17:07:16 <luke-jr> tcatm: not all, just most
3178 2011-02-08 17:07:20 <luke-jr> if all agree, we can just change the formula
3179 2011-02-08 17:07:42 <nanotube> tcatm: but regular clients won't accept the blocks
3180 2011-02-08 17:08:10 <nanotube> max ntime is not "last block + 2 hours"
3181 2011-02-08 17:08:16 <nanotube> it is 'network time + 2 h'
3182 2011-02-08 17:08:21 <nanotube> so you can't keep pushing it to the future
3183 2011-02-08 17:09:03 <nanotube> so you don't get 2 hours per block, you get 2 hours total.
3184 2011-02-08 17:10:03 jav_irc has joined
3185 2011-02-08 17:10:04 <nanotube> so you need >50% of all miners to agree to accept blocks outside the accepted window.
3186 2011-02-08 17:10:22 <nanotube> and if you have >50% of mining power... well we all know that you can screw with the net in various ways in that case.
3187 2011-02-08 17:10:42 <nanotube> jav: your bitcoinmonitor site rounds trades to 2 decimals... and claims .90 mtgox trades occurred when they actually haven't.
3188 2011-02-08 17:10:51 <nanotube> not sure if that is desirable
3189 2011-02-08 17:12:28 <presence> anyone know if poclbm is compatible with ati drivers 10.11 and sdk 2.1?
3190 2011-02-08 17:13:06 jav has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3191 2011-02-08 17:13:56 Vladimir has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3192 2011-02-08 17:15:46 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3193 2011-02-08 17:16:38 molecular has joined
3194 2011-02-08 17:18:09 Necr0s has joined
3195 2011-02-08 17:25:47 <[Noodles]> i'm running poclbm with 10.12/2.2 on windows, always had troubles get it to run with 2.1
3196 2011-02-08 17:26:16 chaord has joined
3197 2011-02-08 17:27:43 <presence> do you get decent rates on ATI?
3198 2011-02-08 17:28:46 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3199 2011-02-08 17:30:04 jav_irc is now known as jav
3200 2011-02-08 17:30:11 <[Noodles]> well, Diablo running on 2.1 would be a bit faster, but desktop-lagness isn't fun
3201 2011-02-08 17:30:40 <presence> yeah basically Im at a point where Id like to run diablo, but it makes my machine unusable
3202 2011-02-08 17:30:42 <[Noodles]> and i get expected <300M per GPU
3203 2011-02-08 17:30:50 <[Noodles]> so i'm cool with it
3204 2011-02-08 17:30:53 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3205 2011-02-08 17:31:10 <[Noodles]> same here, i can't run Diablo if i want to use the machine
3206 2011-02-08 17:31:26 <jav> nanotube: yeah, I see, might be misleading... I'll think about using higher precision
3207 2011-02-08 17:32:19 <presence> finding the stream packages to download is a bitch
3208 2011-02-08 17:32:42 <Necr0s> I already had stream for some reason.
3209 2011-02-08 17:33:02 <Necr0s> I think the ATI Catalyst software may have installed it.
3210 2011-02-08 17:33:30 <[Noodles]> there's Cat-packs with and without Stream
3211 2011-02-08 17:33:49 <UukGoblin> when will mtgox usd transfers be re-enabled? :-E
3212 2011-02-08 17:33:49 <presence> 10.11 doesnt do stream :(
3213 2011-02-08 17:33:54 <presence> you are on 10.11
3214 2011-02-08 17:33:55 <presence> ?
3215 2011-02-08 17:34:01 <presence> 10.12
3216 2011-02-08 17:34:01 <Necr0s> I saw there was a with and without OpenCL, and I got the "with".
3217 2011-02-08 17:34:07 <[Noodles]> me? 10.12
3218 2011-02-08 17:35:10 altamic has joined
3219 2011-02-08 17:35:10 altamic has quit (Changing host)
3220 2011-02-08 17:35:10 altamic has joined
3221 2011-02-08 17:36:06 noot has joined
3222 2011-02-08 17:36:14 <cosurgi> during switch to ipv6, we also should use a different email protocol, so that sending email would require a micropayment in bitcoins to the receiver. That would certainly stop spam.
3223 2011-02-08 17:36:27 <EvanR-work> hash cash
3224 2011-02-08 17:36:58 <EvanR-work> fixing email is about as likely as a black guy becoming president
3225 2011-02-08 17:37:03 <EvanR-work> er
3226 2011-02-08 17:37:07 <cosurgi> ;-)
3227 2011-02-08 17:41:06 <nanotube> haha
3228 2011-02-08 17:41:13 <Necr0s> Difficulty++ I see.
3229 2011-02-08 17:43:42 jav has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
3230 2011-02-08 17:45:32 <slush> sipa1024: shamir.sipa is yours?
3231 2011-02-08 17:48:55 citiz3n has quit ()
3232 2011-02-08 17:49:04 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3233 2011-02-08 17:49:11 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,stats
3234 2011-02-08 17:49:12 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106933 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1930 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 29208.67344024
3235 2011-02-08 17:49:17 <EvanR-work> 26000
3236 2011-02-08 17:49:32 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,calc 620000
3237 2011-02-08 17:49:32 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 620000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 2 hours, 1 minute, and 36 seconds
3238 2011-02-08 17:50:08 <Necr0s> Does the difficulty increasing "reset" any work in progress or any such thing?
3239 2011-02-08 17:50:22 <EvanR-work> no
3240 2011-02-08 17:52:36 <luke-jr> Necr0s: there is no work in progress
3241 2011-02-08 17:53:19 citiz3n has joined
3242 2011-02-08 17:53:19 citiz3n has quit (Changing host)
3243 2011-02-08 17:53:19 citiz3n has joined
3244 2011-02-08 17:54:00 <luke-jr> cosurgi: not a bad idea. Spec it
3245 2011-02-08 17:54:16 <luke-jr> cosurgi: but actually, I'm not sure it's practical
3246 2011-02-08 17:54:31 <luke-jr> for security, you'd need the recipient to give you an address to make the deposit
3247 2011-02-08 17:54:33 <EvanR-work> hash cash is already on the table
3248 2011-02-08 17:54:45 <EvanR-work> but it doesnt create real currency
3249 2011-02-08 17:54:48 <EvanR-work> its just proof of work to send email
3250 2011-02-08 17:54:49 <slush> ;;hostmask slush
3251 2011-02-08 17:54:49 <gribble> slush!~marekp@unaffiliated/slush
3252 2011-02-08 17:55:32 <luke-jr> I suppose you could replace the automatic "click here to whitelist your address" with a "send 1 TBC here to whitelist your address"
3253 2011-02-08 17:55:56 <citiz3n> did it show my real hostmask when i joined just now
3254 2011-02-08 17:56:28 <EvanR-work> yes
3255 2011-02-08 17:56:41 <EvanR-work> you cant autojoin at the same time as identifying
3256 2011-02-08 17:56:48 <EvanR-work> if you want to hide your hostname
3257 2011-02-08 17:56:52 <citiz3n> yeah ill use a timer
3258 2011-02-08 17:57:06 <citiz3n> or server password i guess
3259 2011-02-08 17:57:06 <EvanR-work> another way is sasl auth
3260 2011-02-08 17:57:08 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: yes you can
3261 2011-02-08 17:57:20 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: you can just identify pre-connect
3262 2011-02-08 17:57:29 <EvanR-work> that doesnt make sense
3263 2011-02-08 17:57:32 <luke-jr> just put your nickserv password in the "server password" field for your IRC client
3264 2011-02-08 17:57:41 <luke-jr> then it sends the password before your nick
3265 2011-02-08 17:57:50 <EvanR-work> doesnt sound secure
3266 2011-02-08 17:57:57 <EvanR-work> but neither is normal identifying
3267 2011-02-08 17:58:00 <EvanR-work> sasl auth
3268 2011-02-08 17:58:01 <luke-jr> unless you use SSL
3269 2011-02-08 17:58:22 <luke-jr> [12:51:56] [671] luke-jr luke-jr is using a secure connection
3270 2011-02-08 17:58:49 <luke-jr> [12:51:56] [378] luke-jr luke-jr is connecting from *@ishibashi.dashjr.org 2001:470:5:265:1e6f:65ff:fe8e:24a9
3271 2011-02-08 17:59:54 ThomasV has joined
3272 2011-02-08 17:59:59 ThomasV has quit (Changing host)
3273 2011-02-08 17:59:59 ThomasV has joined
3274 2011-02-08 18:04:40 <cosurgi> the receiving server during "smtp" negotations would require a payment from the sender.
3275 2011-02-08 18:05:36 <EvanR-work> it would take longer for a confirmation than to do the proof of work necessary to stop spam ;)
3276 2011-02-08 18:05:53 <EvanR-work> also, this would cause more spam, bitcoin spam ;)
3277 2011-02-08 18:07:01 <EvanR-work> cosurgi: right now bitcoin takes a lot of cpu power to create, much less is needed to stop spam
3278 2011-02-08 18:07:29 <EvanR-work> also, with BTC, you could 'buy' rights to spam
3279 2011-02-08 18:07:43 <EvanR-work> with hash cash, you literally have to use immediate cpu power
3280 2011-02-08 18:07:55 <luke-jr> cosurgi: what about relays?
3281 2011-02-08 18:07:55 <EvanR-work> so spam would be impossible
3282 2011-02-08 18:09:17 <cosurgi> hmm, with ipv6 relays wouldn't be necessary.
3283 2011-02-08 18:10:39 citiz3n has quit ()
3284 2011-02-08 18:13:02 <Kiba> gene should love to spourt nonsense
3285 2011-02-08 18:14:54 spin0 has left ()
3286 2011-02-08 18:19:19 citiz3n has joined
3287 2011-02-08 18:19:50 <luke-jr> cosurgi: relays are already unnecessary
3288 2011-02-08 18:19:57 <luke-jr> cosurgi: but SMTP is *designed* to use relays
3289 2011-02-08 18:23:02 xelister has joined
3290 2011-02-08 18:23:02 xelister has quit (Changing host)
3291 2011-02-08 18:23:02 xelister has joined
3292 2011-02-08 18:24:05 <xelister> would it be possible for Ati to license, or buys hares in S3 Trio? then they could grab their cutting edge technologies like WORKING MOUSE CURSOR ON SECOND DISPLAY®
3293 2011-02-08 18:24:57 <xelister> ok to be more fair, lets call it: Workin mouse cursor®
3294 2011-02-08 18:25:36 <slush> Is you mouse licenced for Windows?
3295 2011-02-08 18:25:40 <cosurgi> I think that Working Mouse Cursor® i spatented :)
3296 2011-02-08 18:27:12 <Kiba> sometime I feel communist anarchists are not really true anarchists
3297 2011-02-08 18:27:19 <xelister> btw, when o.c.'ing a 5770, it just seem to throlle itself down. e.g. GPU usage 94% instead 99% . Is it possible to disable that?
3298 2011-02-08 18:27:28 <EvanR-work> Kiba: why
3299 2011-02-08 18:27:38 <Kiba> EvanR-work: because of people like gene
3300 2011-02-08 18:27:43 <EvanR-work> who
3301 2011-02-08 18:28:02 <bonsaikitten> xelister: you should stop using bad drivers then
3302 2011-02-08 18:28:03 <Kiba> a dumbass on the forum who think democracy will lead to peace
3303 2011-02-08 18:28:22 <slush> Kiba: isn't it second gene's nick?
3304 2011-02-08 18:28:24 <EvanR-work> in terms of international peace, thats what the effect of democracy has been
3305 2011-02-08 18:28:30 <xelister> democracy did lead to peace, just look at USA
3306 2011-02-08 18:28:38 <Kiba> democracy?
3307 2011-02-08 18:28:40 <xelister> >_>
3308 2011-02-08 18:28:50 <Kiba> didn't the US invade Iraq and Afghanistan?
3309 2011-02-08 18:28:54 <EvanR-work> two democractic countries do not fight
3310 2011-02-08 18:28:56 <xelister> EvanR-work: yes, democracticall USA is not like, starting wars all over the globe, or anything
3311 2011-02-08 18:29:13 <EvanR-work> USA attacks non democracies and implements democracy there
3312 2011-02-08 18:29:23 <Kiba> EvanR-work: The North and the South in the American civil war
3313 2011-02-08 18:29:36 <EvanR-work> 20th century please
3314 2011-02-08 18:29:52 <Kiba> USA is technically a "republic"
3315 2011-02-08 18:30:04 <EvanR-work> theres no technically
3316 2011-02-08 18:30:13 <EvanR-work> democracy is a generic buzzphrase
3317 2011-02-08 18:30:14 <xelister> EvanR-work: no other democracies have wars?
3318 2011-02-08 18:30:18 <luke-jr> xelister: US isn't democracy
3319 2011-02-08 18:30:25 <EvanR-work> xelister: between two democratic countries
3320 2011-02-08 18:30:29 <xelister> luke-jr: it is, just the voters are idiots
3321 2011-02-08 18:30:42 <luke-jr> xelister: nope
3322 2011-02-08 18:30:51 <xelister> democracy would work, in a perfect socieity of trustworthy, good, people
3323 2011-02-08 18:30:57 <luke-jr> democracy means people vote directly on laws, judgements, etc
3324 2011-02-08 18:31:07 <xelister> but in such case, democracy or not, no wars nor any big trouble
3325 2011-02-08 18:31:08 <luke-jr> xelister: then so would anarchy, or socialism, etc
3326 2011-02-08 18:31:13 <xelister> yea
3327 2011-02-08 18:31:22 <luke-jr> monarchy is ideal in the world we have
3328 2011-02-08 18:31:30 <luke-jr> with a philosopher king
3329 2011-02-08 18:31:42 <EvanR-work> yes. 'government form' is all about how to deal with idiotic, evil, greedy, uninformed, etc people
3330 2011-02-08 18:31:50 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: who cant die
3331 2011-02-08 18:31:52 <Kiba> a wise philosopher king would give up his power the moment he ascend the throne
3332 2011-02-08 18:31:53 <EvanR-work> thats the problem
3333 2011-02-08 18:31:58 * xelister king ponders the universe
3334 2011-02-08 18:32:01 * xelister king ponders the universe
3335 2011-02-08 18:32:12 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: no government can last forever
3336 2011-02-08 18:32:36 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: in despotic or supreme ruler governments with golden ages, the minute the wise king dies and his idiotic son takes over, shit hits the fan
3337 2011-02-08 18:32:45 <luke-jr> Kiba: no, that would be a foolish philosopher :P
3338 2011-02-08 18:32:47 <Netsniper> government will survive as long as corruption does
3339 2011-02-08 18:32:58 * xelister king ponders the universe
3340 2011-02-08 18:32:59 <luke-jr> Kiba: a wise philosopher would realize his replacement would be inferior, so keep the throne just to prevent that
3341 2011-02-08 18:32:59 * xelister king_21 has quit: 0 population (12,000,000 - 10,000,000 illness - 2,000,000 famine)
3342 2011-02-08 18:33:08 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: unless hes dying
3343 2011-02-08 18:33:28 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: this is why you tend to have a lineage of kings
3344 2011-02-08 18:33:40 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: if the good king raises his children properly, he can ensure the security of the kingdom
3345 2011-02-08 18:33:42 <EvanR-work> the sons are almost always shit compared to the wise king
3346 2011-02-08 18:33:47 <EvanR-work> no, doesnt work like that
3347 2011-02-08 18:33:57 <luke-jr> a truly wise king will be a good parent as well :p
3348 2011-02-08 18:34:01 <EvanR-work> riiiiight
3349 2011-02-08 18:34:14 <EvanR-work> the first rule of parenting is the children dont listen
3350 2011-02-08 18:34:21 <luke-jr> then you smack em
3351 2011-02-08 18:34:25 <EvanR-work> hmm.
3352 2011-02-08 18:34:38 <luke-jr> they learn if you're consistent
3353 2011-02-08 18:34:44 <x6763> luke-jr: how can someone know what a wise person would do without having that wisdom them self?
3354 2011-02-08 18:35:05 <luke-jr> x6763: thanks for the compliment. :p
3355 2011-02-08 18:35:27 <x6763> lol
3356 2011-02-08 18:36:33 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: its not possible to completely alter another persons world view
3357 2011-02-08 18:37:12 <x6763> EvanR-work: the brain is unchangeable?
3358 2011-02-08 18:37:17 <EvanR-work> if it were that easy, then were back to... brainwash everyone then you dont need government / any government works
3359 2011-02-08 18:37:30 <EvanR-work> x6763: like total brain makeover
3360 2011-02-08 18:38:19 <x6763> the brains between two people with extremely different world views are still quite similar...i think you're overestimating the amount of change that would be required
3361 2011-02-08 18:38:50 <x6763> people do change. the ideas they believe in do change.
3362 2011-02-08 18:38:57 <x6763> some have changed greatly
3363 2011-02-08 18:39:06 <EvanR-work> this idea goes against the rugged individualism usually espoused here
3364 2011-02-08 18:39:40 <Kiba> what goes against the idea ideal of rugged individualism espoused here?
3365 2011-02-08 18:40:06 <luke-jr> I am anti-individualism
3366 2011-02-08 18:40:07 <luke-jr> :P
3367 2011-02-08 18:40:08 <Kiba> paternalism?
3368 2011-02-08 18:40:23 <Netsniper> http://www.simpleliberty.org/tootoa/index.htm
3369 2011-02-08 18:40:34 <Netsniper> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Leviathan_gr.jpg
3370 2011-02-08 18:40:39 <luke-jr> there are 2 important units: the family, and the Church
3371 2011-02-08 18:40:47 <presence> well, I wasnt mistaken
3372 2011-02-08 18:40:56 <presence> ATI has way more lousy drivers than Nvidia
3373 2011-02-08 18:41:13 <presence> its an eternal pain in the ass to get a miner running on ati unless you want to dedicate the box to it
3374 2011-02-08 18:41:15 <xelister> presence: yes
3375 2011-02-08 18:41:17 <luke-jr> presence: not when it comes to free software
3376 2011-02-08 18:41:35 <luke-jr> presence: nonsense
3377 2011-02-08 18:41:45 <xelister> luke-jr: free software driver does not do opencl nor foull opengl
3378 2011-02-08 18:41:47 <luke-jr> my box isn't dedicated to mining
3379 2011-02-08 18:41:47 <xelister> *full
3380 2011-02-08 18:41:49 <presence> Im sorry, but this crap doesnt pass the bar
3381 2011-02-08 18:41:54 <presence> free or cost
3382 2011-02-08 18:41:56 <luke-jr> xelister: it does full OpenGL 2.0 âº
3383 2011-02-08 18:41:58 <presence> its dogshit
3384 2011-02-08 18:42:03 <xelister> presence: luke-jr is constantly trollling about omg everyone lets be opesource like rms
3385 2011-02-08 18:42:09 <luke-jr> presence: free and cost are unrelated terms
3386 2011-02-08 18:42:29 <luke-jr> xelister: curiously, the Stream SDK supports mining on my 100% free driver Intel GPU
3387 2011-02-08 18:42:33 <presence> the fact is, having to figure out what mix of released garbage intermixes is an exercize in futility
3388 2011-02-08 18:42:39 <luke-jr> xelister: which doesn't support OpenCL at all
3389 2011-02-08 18:42:46 <xelister> luke-jr: free driver for radeon does full opengl 2.0 with same speed +- 20% as normal driver? so it can be used for games etc?
3390 2011-02-08 18:43:07 <luke-jr> xelister: good enough for games, yes; not full speed as normal driver for high-end stuff though
3391 2011-02-08 18:43:29 <bonsaikitten> but faster for many operations
3392 2011-02-08 18:43:32 <presence> having the opencl driver dissociated from the display driver is just horrible design
3393 2011-02-08 18:43:33 <bonsaikitten> it's quite funny
3394 2011-02-08 18:43:34 <luke-jr> for older radeons, the free driver is faster
3395 2011-02-08 18:43:46 <luke-jr> presence: erm, no
3396 2011-02-08 18:43:59 <xelister> luke-jr: with just free radeon drivers, on radeons 5xxx, is it possible to: have opengl games with at leasy 75% of normal (closed source driver) speed, and mine on GPU with at least 95% of normal speed, and still with normal cpu usage on minig (~0%) ?
3397 2011-02-08 18:44:00 <luke-jr> presence: in any case, neither ATi nor Nvidia support that
3398 2011-02-08 18:44:25 <presence> play devils advocate if you want, but Ive been dealing with this shit for hours now and Im not going to change my mind
3399 2011-02-08 18:45:03 <xelister> presence: yeap, ati sucks cock
3400 2011-02-08 18:45:22 <presence> with nvidia this was mostly painless
3401 2011-02-08 18:45:28 <presence> sure the hardware sucks comparitively
3402 2011-02-08 18:45:43 <presence> but the drivers make this dogshit look like some nigerian prince funded it
3403 2011-02-08 18:45:47 ThomasV has left ("Quitte")
3404 2011-02-08 18:46:53 <luke-jr> xelister: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r500_expanded&num=1
3405 2011-02-08 18:47:17 <xelister> luke-jr: dont have time now (work)... yes or not yet?
3406 2011-02-08 18:47:30 <luke-jr> xelister: depends on model
3407 2011-02-08 18:48:06 <xelister> luke-jr: 5770's and betters. any of thoes?
3408 2011-02-08 18:48:07 altamic has joined
3409 2011-02-08 18:48:26 <xelister> mostly, can I gpu mine 5770 - 5970 reasonably with yours fully open driver
3410 2011-02-08 18:48:40 <luke-jr> xelister: no idea, nobody's ever tried it afaik
3411 2011-02-08 18:48:41 <xelister> for mining I need 99% of speed. For games, I do not care too much
3412 2011-02-08 18:48:59 <presence> this would be a zero challenge if I wanted to set the machine aside to just mine
3413 2011-02-08 18:49:04 <presence> but Im not doing that
3414 2011-02-08 18:49:13 <xelister> =)
3415 2011-02-08 18:49:29 <luke-jr> presence: GPU mining and using the GPU as a desktop are inherently exclusive tasks
3416 2011-02-08 18:49:31 <luke-jr> presence: get over it
3417 2011-02-08 18:49:47 <presence> if thats the case, then why does rpcminer and poclbm not cause gui lag
3418 2011-02-08 18:49:49 <luke-jr> I use my Intel Graphics HD 2000 for desktop work, and my Radeon for mining
3419 2011-02-08 18:50:04 <luke-jr> when I want to play PS2 games, I turn off the miner and VNC to the Radeon
3420 2011-02-08 18:50:05 <presence> I can do everything I want with those two programs running, with the exclusion of game
3421 2011-02-08 18:50:08 <presence> which is perfectly fine
3422 2011-02-08 18:50:47 * luke-jr loves how full-framerate 3D works fine over VNC locally
3423 2011-02-08 18:51:51 <presence> Im going to install 11.1 and sdk 2.3 and lose the 10% with rpcminer. Its way better than losing 100% usability of my system with this other crap
3424 2011-02-08 18:52:12 <luke-jr> lol
3425 2011-02-08 18:52:23 <presence> thats the plain truth
3426 2011-02-08 18:52:57 <presence> Ive lost more hours already tweaking this shit that I will recoup for that 10% for months.
3427 2011-02-08 18:53:11 <luke-jr> use IGP, n00b
3428 2011-02-08 18:54:00 <presence> are you suggesting I game with an IGP?
3429 2011-02-08 18:54:31 <presence> because mining on an igp...well, I suspect that is less than high performance
3430 2011-02-08 18:55:40 <xelister> if I get 1000 usd on mtgox as mtgoxusd, then how much it costs (summed all fees) to take it out as a wirte to polish bank account (bank account can be in USD)
3431 2011-02-08 18:56:36 <luke-jr> presence: turn off the mining when you game
3432 2011-02-08 18:56:40 <luke-jr> and game on the high-end card
3433 2011-02-08 18:56:59 <presence> so what do I need IGP for?
3434 2011-02-08 18:57:41 <luke-jr> non-gaming desktop use
3435 2011-02-08 18:58:43 dissipate has joined
3436 2011-02-08 19:01:29 <molecular> ;;bc;calcd 650000
3437 2011-02-08 19:01:29 <gribble> Error: "bc;calcd" is not a valid command.
3438 2011-02-08 19:01:33 <molecular> ;;bc;calc 650000
3439 2011-02-08 19:01:33 <gribble> Error: "bc;calc" is not a valid command.
3440 2011-02-08 19:01:39 <molecular> ;;bc,calcd 650000
3441 2011-02-08 19:01:39 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
3442 2011-02-08 19:01:51 <molecular> ;;bc,calcd 650000 26000
3443 2011-02-08 19:01:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 650000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26000, is 1 day, 23 hours, 43 minutes, and 18 seconds
3444 2011-02-08 19:01:55 <citiz3n> ;;bc,calcd 25000 2h
3445 2011-02-08 19:01:55 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
3446 2011-02-08 19:02:15 <molecular> ;;bc,help
3447 2011-02-08 19:02:15 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
3448 2011-02-08 19:02:53 <presence> 285M/sec is going to have to do.
3449 2011-02-08 19:03:07 <presence> sure I lose 10%, but my machine is usable.
3450 2011-02-08 19:03:27 <Necr0s> what card?
3451 2011-02-08 19:03:52 <Necr0s> 5870?
3452 2011-02-08 19:05:17 <presence> yeah
3453 2011-02-08 19:05:38 <presence> couldnt get a better result. Loaded 10.10, 10.11, 10.12 sdk 2.2, 2.3, 2.1
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3455 2011-02-08 19:05:55 <presence> the only miner that reliably worked was diablos, however, it was brutal on gui latency
3456 2011-02-08 19:06:14 <presence> with 11.1 and sdk2.3 poclbm works well, but I lose 10% perf
3457 2011-02-08 19:06:25 <presence> however, my machine isnt in the drink while it runs
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3462 2011-02-08 19:10:13 <Necr0s> Did you try changing the task priority with diablo?
3463 2011-02-08 19:10:21 <presence> -f field?
3464 2011-02-08 19:10:22 <presence> yeah
3465 2011-02-08 19:10:28 <Necr0s> Using Task Manager
3466 2011-02-08 19:10:41 <presence> java isnt very friendly when you tweak it
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3470 2011-02-08 19:11:21 <presence> it was crashing unhappily
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3486 2011-02-08 20:16:04 <cosurgi> ArtForz: what PSU would you recommend for 4*ATI 5870, 188W ? would 750W be ok?
3487 2011-02-08 20:16:19 * cosurgi uses corsair...
3488 2011-02-08 20:17:15 <Kiba> YEAH BIATCH!
3489 2011-02-08 20:18:08 <Necr0s> Get 2x 5970 instead.
3490 2011-02-08 20:18:46 <Necr0s> 188W x4 > 750W
3491 2011-02-08 20:19:01 <cosurgi> I found 5870 at good price.
3492 2011-02-08 20:19:25 <Necr0s> Well you're gonna need more than 750w if you're gonna run 'em all at full tilt.
3493 2011-02-08 20:19:27 <cosurgi> with 3 year warranty
3494 2011-02-08 20:19:42 <Necr0s> I'd recommend at least 900W for such a system. 1000+ would be better.
3495 2011-02-08 20:20:21 <cosurgi> the 5970 are 2.3 time more expensive, but give only 1.7 times more hashes/sec
3496 2011-02-08 20:20:43 <Necr0s> But you can fit 4 of them in a single system for 8 GPUs. ;)
3497 2011-02-08 20:21:22 <cosurgi> I can fit, but they are more expensive :) Two 4*5870 are cheaper
3498 2011-02-08 20:21:23 <[Noodles]> and pay what, like $1000 for a good PSU? ^.^
3499 2011-02-08 20:21:30 <Necr0s> heh
3500 2011-02-08 20:21:33 <Necr0s> likely
3501 2011-02-08 20:21:59 <cosurgi> aha! I see, I did my PSU calculation for only two 5870. Oops. so I need >1000W PSU.
3502 2011-02-08 20:22:00 <[Noodles]> i also ordered 2x 5850 today, way cheaper than 1x 5970
3503 2011-02-08 20:22:21 <cosurgi> I'm talking about 5870 :)
3504 2011-02-08 20:22:26 <[Noodles]> i know
3505 2011-02-08 20:22:42 lyspooner has joined
3506 2011-02-08 20:23:25 <[Noodles]> but i got a 5850 already and i'm pleased with it's results
3507 2011-02-08 20:23:43 <cosurgi> if you have good price, then go for it! :)
3508 2011-02-08 20:23:54 <cosurgi> I had a good price for 5850, but they sold out.
3509 2011-02-08 20:24:01 <cosurgi> I got two of them.
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3511 2011-02-08 20:24:37 <Necr0s> I think there's a way to make these cards run in 1x slots too.
3512 2011-02-08 20:24:50 <Necr0s> I saw some guy's article/blog about how he did that.
3513 2011-02-08 20:26:16 <cosurgi> oops. suddenly it is cheaper to buy two PCs, with 2*5870 each. Because PSU gets 3 times more expensive.
3514 2011-02-08 20:27:02 <Necr0s> I've wondered about using 2 cheaper power supplies...
3515 2011-02-08 20:27:13 <Necr0s> instead of one big asspensive one.
3516 2011-02-08 20:30:47 <Necr0s> Seems like it should work. All you have to do is connect two pins on the ATX harness to turn it on.
3517 2011-02-08 20:31:30 <Necr0s> Connect the green wire to ground (any black wire)
3518 2011-02-08 20:31:56 <citiz3n> it may work, but you could also see funny results
3519 2011-02-08 20:32:05 <citiz3n> i would get two identical power supplies if you're gonna do it
3520 2011-02-08 20:32:26 <Necr0s> It's all DC so there shouldn't be any phase issues.
3521 2011-02-08 20:32:40 <cosurgi> hmm.. I would need to know exactly how to connect those wires. Are there some photos, or something that can explain this stuff?
3522 2011-02-08 20:32:50 <citiz3n> ive seen both power supplies shut off when only 1 is turned off
3523 2011-02-08 20:32:55 <citiz3n> weird things like that
3524 2011-02-08 20:33:13 <citiz3n> on the 20+4 pin connector, look for the green wire
3525 2011-02-08 20:33:15 <citiz3n> there is only 1 green wire
3526 2011-02-08 20:33:22 <citiz3n> connect that green to one of the black wires next to it
3527 2011-02-08 20:33:40 <Necr0s> Make a jumper out of a paper clip or something.
3528 2011-02-08 20:33:50 <citiz3n> http://www.smpspowersupply.com/connector_atx_pinout.GIF
3529 2011-02-08 20:34:03 <citiz3n> yeah making a proper jumper is the only difficult part
3530 2011-02-08 20:34:36 <Necr0s> Stripping the wires and soldering in a switch would be more proper.
3531 2011-02-08 20:34:38 <cosurgi> ok. so I make this jumper on the PSU which isn't connected to the motherboard at all, right?
3532 2011-02-08 20:34:49 <citiz3n> yup
3533 2011-02-08 20:34:53 <Necr0s> yeah
3534 2011-02-08 20:35:01 <cosurgi> ok, seems doable.
3535 2011-02-08 20:35:05 <citiz3n> all you're doing is the same thing the motherboard combined with the power switch does
3536 2011-02-08 20:35:10 <Necr0s> Or even more fancy would be a female ATX connector with the switch.
3537 2011-02-08 20:35:11 <cosurgi> I have some spare/old PSUs I can experiment with.
3538 2011-02-08 20:35:19 <citiz3n> that would be nice, necros
3539 2011-02-08 20:35:29 <citiz3n> actually, i never thought of doing that - ive got a million old boards around
3540 2011-02-08 20:35:36 <citiz3n> would be a pain to desolder one though
3541 2011-02-08 20:35:37 <citiz3n> :P
3542 2011-02-08 20:35:50 <Necr0s> probably.
3543 2011-02-08 20:36:45 <cosurgi> Or maybe would be enough to inser a paperclip right to the 20+4 connector from the bottom. Instead of plugging into mobo - you plig into the paperclip.
3544 2011-02-08 20:37:24 <cosurgi> Just find a paperclip with right diameter of wire. And it should fit right in.
3545 2011-02-08 20:38:24 <cosurgi> or maybe that's what you already said ;-) Before I had a vision of removin unsulation from the wires, to shortcut them with a clip ;/
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3550 2011-02-08 20:44:52 Raulo has joined
3551 2011-02-08 20:45:04 <cosurgi> Raulo: have you seen slush idea?
3552 2011-02-08 20:45:20 <Raulo> Yes. Contacted hip yesterday
3553 2011-02-08 20:45:30 <cosurgi> so it's good?
3554 2011-02-08 20:45:39 <Raulo> It should work privided that parameter C is small
3555 2011-02-08 20:45:59 <cosurgi> how small?
3556 2011-02-08 20:46:15 <Raulo> 100s for 3% cheating. 300s is 7%
3557 2011-02-08 20:46:32 <Raulo> 3% is essencially zero if you count overheads
3558 2011-02-08 20:46:53 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|meh
3559 2011-02-08 20:46:56 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I want to be an ass
3560 2011-02-08 20:47:04 <Raulo> I'll be back later. Gotto go
3561 2011-02-08 20:47:16 <cosurgi> wow. that's pretty short. about 3.5% of full time.
3562 2011-02-08 20:47:30 <cosurgi> Raulo: but you have seen the formula with exponent?
3563 2011-02-08 20:47:45 <cosurgi> Raulo: his_shares=his_shares + exp(time_fromstart/C)
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3569 2011-02-08 21:11:43 <cosurgi> ArtForz: would PSU 1200W be enough for 4*ATI 5870, 188W ?
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3572 2011-02-08 21:32:21 <slush> cosurgi: yes
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3577 2011-02-08 21:41:51 <cosurgi> slush: thanks :) I'm pondering buying this. Have you seen what Raulo just said?
3578 2011-02-08 21:42:13 <slush> yes, he told me the same numbers yesterday
3579 2011-02-08 21:42:25 <cosurgi> ok. are you testing right now?
3580 2011-02-08 21:42:36 <tcatm> chaord: did you get js-remote working?
3581 2011-02-08 21:43:40 <slush> It is ready to live and just now I'm thinking if push it to server now or tomorrow :)
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3585 2011-02-08 22:02:29 <presence> you will probably have heat issues with 4x 5870 in a single chassis
3586 2011-02-08 22:09:00 <cosurgi> presence: I am cutting holes in the chassis. I bought scissors for steel. It works great for my dual 5850 - 95 C dropped to 70 C.
3587 2011-02-08 22:10:21 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3588 2011-02-08 22:10:31 <tcatm> 3x 5870 right next to each other works fine. 4x 5970 will not
3589 2011-02-08 22:10:43 <presence> cool
3590 2011-02-08 22:11:46 skeledrew has joined
3591 2011-02-08 22:14:48 <luke-jr> how do you guys put even 2 in a system with hard drives? -.-
3592 2011-02-08 22:15:10 <luke-jr> I guess you could get adapters to mount them in the 5 inch baysâ¦
3593 2011-02-08 22:15:34 <tcatm> my miners don't have harddrives
3594 2011-02-08 22:15:40 noagendamarket has joined
3595 2011-02-08 22:16:45 <slush> tcatm: flash drive or PXE?
3596 2011-02-08 22:16:52 <tcatm> nfsroot
3597 2011-02-08 22:16:57 <slush> oh
3598 2011-02-08 22:17:12 <slush> I'm using 4gb usb stick, works pretty well
3599 2011-02-08 22:17:21 <tcatm> well, nfs was easier
3600 2011-02-08 22:17:48 <tcatm> also makes updates of miner software easy
3601 2011-02-08 22:18:41 <jgarzik> tcatm: your bios/firmware supports NFS?
3602 2011-02-08 22:18:42 <cosurgi> my miners don't have drives either - usbkey.
3603 2011-02-08 22:18:49 <jgarzik> or do you PXE bootstrap into NFS?
3604 2011-02-08 22:19:02 <tcatm> PXE -> nfsroot
3605 2011-02-08 22:19:25 <tcatm> PXE itself isn't really useful to replace a harddisk
3606 2011-02-08 22:19:30 <jgarzik> indeed
3607 2011-02-08 22:25:09 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3608 2011-02-08 22:25:18 <tcatm> My calculate-hashrate from real GPU results instead of counting loop runs seems to work great. I also immediately detects when GPU starts to return wrong results => hashrate drops
3609 2011-02-08 22:31:31 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3610 2011-02-08 22:32:26 <luke-jr> [fglrx] ASIC hang happened
3611 2011-02-08 22:32:27 <luke-jr> wtf
3612 2011-02-08 22:33:41 brunner has joined
3613 2011-02-08 22:34:29 <midnightmagic> is there some way to delete an account from my wallet..?
3614 2011-02-08 22:34:47 <tcatm> midnightmagic: setaccount
3615 2011-02-08 22:35:20 <midnightmagic> every time i setaccount the last bitcoin address in the account, a new one shows up and it remains in the listaccounts result set.
3616 2011-02-08 22:35:22 <tcatm> i.e. set all adddresses of a account to a different account (like "")
3617 2011-02-08 22:44:14 Diablo-D3 has joined
3618 2011-02-08 22:44:15 <Raulo> I'm pretty sure 950W PSU would be OK for 4x5870
3619 2011-02-08 22:44:42 <Diablo-D3> 950? or just the 5870s by themselves and its a good 950?
3620 2011-02-08 22:44:44 <Diablo-D3> *for
3621 2011-02-08 22:44:59 <Raulo> I have a powermeter and 2x5970 and the whole system draws 660W only under load
3622 2011-02-08 22:45:04 <Diablo-D3> that seems cutting it close
3623 2011-02-08 22:45:14 <Diablo-D3> each 5970 takes max 300 watts give or take
3624 2011-02-08 22:45:20 <Raulo> Including inneficiencies of the PSU
3625 2011-02-08 22:45:44 <Raulo> So it's max 600W on the 12V line or less
3626 2011-02-08 22:45:46 <Diablo-D3> though depends what you did with it
3627 2011-02-08 22:45:57 <Raulo> Mining of course :)
3628 2011-02-08 22:46:04 <citiz3n> i would have to agree that 950W for whole system is risky
3629 2011-02-08 22:46:08 <citiz3n> with that many cards
3630 2011-02-08 22:46:14 <citiz3n> you also need to account the fans
3631 2011-02-08 22:46:18 <Diablo-D3> yeah it should be closer to a 1200 watt PSU
3632 2011-02-08 22:46:34 <Diablo-D3> and even then you're just going to fry it
3633 2011-02-08 22:46:39 <cosurgi> yeah, but I'm not confident with cooling now. I should get risers.
3634 2011-02-08 22:46:49 <Diablo-D3> art has 6 4x 5970 boxes
3635 2011-02-08 22:46:51 <Raulo> I would definitely more worry about the heat
3636 2011-02-08 22:46:56 <Diablo-D3> hes using I think 2 800 watt PSUs
3637 2011-02-08 22:47:00 <midnightmagic> i run 2x5970+motherboard on one 750W high-efficiency corsair, and then another two 5970 with another 750W corsair in one machine.
3638 2011-02-08 22:47:01 <Diablo-D3> in each
3639 2011-02-08 22:47:17 <OneFixt> For those who missed the launch yesterday, try out the www.bitpenny.com insant-mining pool. join #bitcoin-bitpenny for more information
3640 2011-02-08 22:47:30 <Diablo-D3> ANOTHER pool?
3641 2011-02-08 22:47:37 <OneFixt> instant-payout*
3642 2011-02-08 22:47:40 <midnightmagic> this one's different. :)
3643 2011-02-08 22:47:40 <Diablo-D3> how many pools are there
3644 2011-02-08 22:47:46 <midnightmagic> three that I know of.
3645 2011-02-08 22:47:52 <midnightmagic> and I don't know squat
3646 2011-02-08 22:47:54 <Diablo-D3> goddamnit
3647 2011-02-08 22:47:56 <Diablo-D3> I should join all
3648 2011-02-08 22:48:00 <Raulo> OneFixt: Did you check the Poisson distribution. I hope you have deep pockets
3649 2011-02-08 22:48:13 <OneFixt> Raulo: yep, me too
3650 2011-02-08 22:48:38 <Diablo-D3> Raulo: still, 950 would be enough for 2 and not overtax the PSU
3651 2011-02-08 22:49:12 <Diablo-D3> it should be enough to clock 2 5970s at full speed
3652 2011-02-08 22:49:18 <midnightmagic> 950 is plenty for 2x5970 unless you plan on plugging in 12 HDD and a dozen peripherals
3653 2011-02-08 22:49:20 <cosurgi> hmm, in fact I'm pondering that maybe better get two PCs with two 5870 each...
3654 2011-02-08 22:49:20 <Raulo> Diablo-D3 for two 5970s?
3655 2011-02-08 22:49:22 <Diablo-D3> but 4 at 5970 clocks is impossible
3656 2011-02-08 22:49:28 <Raulo> I have 2x5970 on 850W
3657 2011-02-08 22:49:32 luke-jr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3658 2011-02-08 22:49:42 <Diablo-D3> enough as in 2 will fit
3659 2011-02-08 22:49:48 <Netsniper> bowel movement > demand curve movement
3660 2011-02-08 22:49:53 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: thats pointless
3661 2011-02-08 22:50:10 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: you think it's better to go with four 5870 ?
3662 2011-02-08 22:50:20 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: you can clock 5970s at 5870 speeds and use less power and take only 1 slot for 2 gpus
3663 2011-02-08 22:50:23 <Diablo-D3> the problem is cooling it
3664 2011-02-08 22:50:31 luke-jr has joined
3665 2011-02-08 22:50:34 <Diablo-D3> but if you're force cooling them with high rpm fans its not an issue
3666 2011-02-08 22:50:46 <slush> >you can clock 5970s at 5870 speeds ---- not to easy, because cooling
3667 2011-02-08 22:50:51 <slush> *too
3668 2011-02-08 22:50:55 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: ah, that. Well I have a good price in local store for 5870. The 5970s are 2.3 times more expensive. And still 3 year warranty.
3669 2011-02-08 22:50:56 <Diablo-D3> slush: depends on the case
3670 2011-02-08 22:51:07 <Diablo-D3> ONE 5970 in a normal sized case with good airflow is fine
3671 2011-02-08 22:51:14 <citiz3n> what does verification failed, check hardware mean?
3672 2011-02-08 22:51:17 <citiz3n> OCed too much?
3673 2011-02-08 22:51:20 <Diablo-D3> citiz3n: yeah
3674 2011-02-08 22:51:22 <Raulo> In my opinion the TDPs of the cards are very conservative
3675 2011-02-08 22:51:24 <Diablo-D3> or just a random glitch
3676 2011-02-08 22:51:31 <Diablo-D3> Raulo: yes and no
3677 2011-02-08 22:51:41 <Diablo-D3> you wont exceed 300 watts 12v in a 5970
3678 2011-02-08 22:51:45 <OneFixt> Does anyone who uses Diablo-D3
3679 2011-02-08 22:51:47 <Diablo-D3> because they underclocked it
3680 2011-02-08 22:51:56 <OneFixt> Does anyone who uses Diablo-D3's miner have a moment to test bitpenny?
3681 2011-02-08 22:52:03 <slush> from my observation, two gpus for the cooler is too much. I can OC every core much higher than both at once
3682 2011-02-08 22:52:07 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: it should work fine assuming you impl rpc right
3683 2011-02-08 22:52:13 <Raulo> Diablo-D3. I have also processor and hardrive and all the system on 600W
3684 2011-02-08 22:52:15 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt: it works exactly like m0's
3685 2011-02-08 22:52:21 <OneFixt> ok, good
3686 2011-02-08 22:52:29 <Raulo> The card takes max 260W each
3687 2011-02-08 22:52:34 <Diablo-D3> Raulo: Im just saying, 950 is enough for 2x with a fair bit of overhead
3688 2011-02-08 22:52:42 <Diablo-D3> its closer to 300 max
3689 2011-02-08 22:52:52 <citiz3n> depends on brand of PSU as well of course
3690 2011-02-08 22:52:54 <Raulo> 850W is enough for two 5970s
3691 2011-02-08 22:53:00 <Diablo-D3> I wouldnt squeeze 3x cards on a 950
3692 2011-02-08 22:53:02 <citiz3n> cheap brands usually give themselves a higher rating than they are
3693 2011-02-08 22:53:10 <Raulo> Even with some mild overcloking (but not overvolting)
3694 2011-02-08 22:53:12 <Diablo-D3> you COULD drive 2x 5970 at full speed on a 950
3695 2011-02-08 22:53:16 <Diablo-D3> but thats about it
3696 2011-02-08 22:53:23 <citiz3n> antec/corsair/rosewill/etc are good usually
3697 2011-02-08 22:53:25 LobsterMan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3698 2011-02-08 22:53:29 <Diablo-D3> citiz3n: bullshit
3699 2011-02-08 22:53:30 <citiz3n> sparkle is good, but not sure how high of rating they go
3700 2011-02-08 22:53:34 <Diablo-D3> rosewill is newegg's chinese shit brand
3701 2011-02-08 22:53:35 <cosurgi> which is better chieftec or corsair? I think corsair, but I thought I'd ask.
3702 2011-02-08 22:53:41 <citiz3n> you don't like rosewill?
3703 2011-02-08 22:53:43 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: corsair
3704 2011-02-08 22:53:47 <Diablo-D3> citiz3n: its newegg's private brand
3705 2011-02-08 22:53:48 <citiz3n> ive used a few and they were OK
3706 2011-02-08 22:53:53 <Raulo> cosurgi: I have a Corsiar and it works OK
3707 2011-02-08 22:53:57 <Diablo-D3> they buy the cheapest shit available and make it even cheaper
3708 2011-02-08 22:54:05 <Diablo-D3> antec is also shit
3709 2011-02-08 22:54:06 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
3710 2011-02-08 22:54:07 <presence> my corsairs work well
3711 2011-02-08 22:54:16 <cosurgi> ok, thanks
3712 2011-02-08 22:54:22 <citiz3n> wow, what brands DO you like?
3713 2011-02-08 22:54:22 <Diablo-D3> if I have to buy a new psu, its only going to be a corsair ax series
3714 2011-02-08 22:54:24 <presence> my last several antecs let out the blue smoke fairies prematurely
3715 2011-02-08 22:54:30 <presence> so Im avoiding them at this point
3716 2011-02-08 22:54:36 <Diablo-D3> unless I happen to find an original gen pc power silencer or truepower
3717 2011-02-08 22:54:38 dukeleto has joined
3718 2011-02-08 22:54:43 <Diablo-D3> the new silencer IIs are fucking shit
3719 2011-02-08 22:55:59 <Raulo> cosurgi: 950W should be OK for 4x5870s but you will have a lot of heat issues with so many cards crammed
3720 2011-02-08 22:56:28 <Diablo-D3> its not
3721 2011-02-08 22:56:34 <Diablo-D3> oh, 5870s? maybe
3722 2011-02-08 22:56:43 <cosurgi> yeah: heat. Either lots of fans, or rather two PCs, and I'd rather go with 1200W
3723 2011-02-08 22:56:43 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3724 2011-02-08 22:56:45 <Raulo> Yes, Diablo. 5870s
3725 2011-02-08 22:56:53 <Diablo-D3> if 2x 5970 at full speed will work, so will 4x 5870s
3726 2011-02-08 22:56:55 <Diablo-D3> but why waste two slots?
3727 2011-02-08 22:57:15 LobsterMan has joined
3728 2011-02-08 22:57:15 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
3729 2011-02-08 22:57:15 LobsterMan has joined
3730 2011-02-08 22:57:35 <cosurgi> oh, seriously? 950W ?
3731 2011-02-08 22:58:43 <Raulo> I'm running 2x5970 which are like 3.2 5870s on 850W with plenty of headroom
3732 2011-02-08 22:58:46 <citiz3n> the 5970s are slightly more efficient hash/watt right
3733 2011-02-08 22:59:58 <Raulo> 660W under load with the whole system on the wattmeter which is below 600W after the power supply
3734 2011-02-08 23:00:38 <Raulo> 700W on the wattmeter oveclocked to 800 MHz (with stock voltage)
3735 2011-02-08 23:01:49 doublec has joined
3736 2011-02-08 23:01:49 doublec has quit (Changing host)
3737 2011-02-08 23:01:49 doublec has joined
3738 2011-02-08 23:03:43 skeledrew has joined
3739 2011-02-08 23:04:57 <midnightmagic> uh. am I missing something? bitcoind listaccounts 1: error: {"code":-1,"message":"value is type str, expected int"}
3740 2011-02-08 23:06:00 <tcatm> what's the exact command you ran?
3741 2011-02-08 23:06:05 <tcatm> which bitcoin version?
3742 2011-02-08 23:06:12 <midnightmagic> that's it right there. "bitcoind listaccounts 1"
3743 2011-02-08 23:06:30 <midnightmagic> I also tried "bitcoind listaccounts minconf=1"
3744 2011-02-08 23:06:48 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3745 2011-02-08 23:06:59 <LobsterMan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitcoin
3746 2011-02-08 23:07:01 <LobsterMan> lol
3747 2011-02-08 23:08:14 <midnightmagic> looks like a bug. where would you prefer i file it, tcatm?
3748 2011-02-08 23:08:17 <tcatm> midnightmagic: bitcoind listaccounts 1 should work
3749 2011-02-08 23:08:22 <midnightmagic> i agree.
3750 2011-02-08 23:08:26 <tcatm> at least it works here (0.3.20)
3751 2011-02-08 23:08:37 <midnightmagic> how recent is your build?
3752 2011-02-08 23:08:45 <tcatm> 0.3.20 :)
3753 2011-02-08 23:09:08 <midnightmagic> yah yah.. :-) mine too: "version" : 32000,
3754 2011-02-08 23:09:12 <midnightmagic> :-D
3755 2011-02-08 23:09:30 <tcatm> are you really using the bitcoind to issue RPC or some script?
3756 2011-02-08 23:09:50 <midnightmagic> bitcoind on Linux from a bash command-prompt, I do no wrappers yet.
3757 2011-02-08 23:10:01 <midnightmagic> Ubuntu 10.10
3758 2011-02-08 23:10:07 <tcatm> very strange...
3759 2011-02-08 23:10:14 <tcatm> same here and it works fine
3760 2011-02-08 23:10:36 <tcatm> the error message indicates the 1 is passed as string
3761 2011-02-08 23:10:38 <midnightmagic> when did you do your build? I built back on.. 2010-12-30 19:05 Pacific Time.
3762 2011-02-08 23:10:46 <midnightmagic> i git clone'd as of about an hour before that.
3763 2011-02-08 23:11:00 <midnightmagic> actually, I guess i can query what my -head is. lemme check.
3764 2011-02-08 23:11:10 <tcatm> huh? did 0.3.20 even exist in december?
3765 2011-02-08 23:11:30 <tcatm> maybe the bitcoind binary you're using to issue RPC calls is still from 0.3.19?
3766 2011-02-08 23:11:36 <midnightmagic> oh.. hang on a sec..
3767 2011-02-08 23:11:45 <midnightmagic> interesting, the query might be from a 0.3.19..
3768 2011-02-08 23:12:45 <midnightmagic> ah there we go.
3769 2011-02-08 23:12:54 <midnightmagic> nevermind, problem solved. yeesh.
3770 2011-02-08 23:13:30 <midnightmagic> So! LOL, new feature request. bitcoind -V
3771 2011-02-08 23:13:54 <tcatm> I think it sohws the version in --help... since 0.3.20 :D
3772 2011-02-08 23:13:59 <tcatm> shows*
3773 2011-02-08 23:14:39 <midnightmagic> indeed it does. just ignore me. geez. honestly, I'm usually a much better user than this.
3774 2011-02-08 23:15:58 <midnightmagic> sorry about that. i'll do penance by helping some new users.
3775 2011-02-08 23:17:07 <tcatm> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/closed#issue/27
3776 2011-02-08 23:20:07 <midnightmagic> :-)
3777 2011-02-08 23:28:42 Raulo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3778 2011-02-08 23:30:19 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3779 2011-02-08 23:32:22 skeledrew has joined
3780 2011-02-08 23:45:58 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
3781 2011-02-08 23:46:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 106972 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1891 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 28857.96289701
3782 2011-02-08 23:47:36 <midnightmagic> has gribble evened out on the estimate?!
3783 2011-02-08 23:55:36 <prax> seems a little low?
3784 2011-02-08 23:56:47 <nanotube> tcatm: still missing the win build?
3785 2011-02-08 23:58:57 <tcatm> yep (at least I haven't heard of anyone building one)