1 2011-02-13 00:00:15 <Mango-chan> so will bitcoin become so powerful
   2 2011-02-13 00:00:18 <midnightmagic_> pretty much, but then what would be the point? it would have to originate from a philosophical objection to the network. the 500k would essentially be wasted.
   3 2011-02-13 00:00:32 <Mango-chan> that the government or some other entity feels threatened
   4 2011-02-13 00:00:55 <Mango-chan> that the incentive of taking over the network is essentially 0?
   5 2011-02-13 00:01:19 <midnightmagic_> $5m of BTC floating around isn't much of a threat to anyone.
   6 2011-02-13 00:01:23 <Mango-chan> or, the cost of taking over the network >>>>>>>>> incentive to deneutralize the threat
   7 2011-02-13 00:01:30 <sipa> there is no $5m of BTC
   8 2011-02-13 00:01:41 <Mango-chan> i mean if we become big
   9 2011-02-13 00:01:45 <andrew12> baloney
  10 2011-02-13 00:02:04 <nevezen> what's a dark pool?
  11 2011-02-13 00:02:11 <Mango-chan> will we become BIG ENOUGH that the government thinks it's a waste of money to take over the network?
  12 2011-02-13 00:02:16 <sipa> invisible bids/asks
  13 2011-02-13 00:02:50 <Mango-chan> hell they can even rent out gpu farms
  14 2011-02-13 00:02:50 <Mango-chan> they don't even have to pay for the hardware themselves
  15 2011-02-13 00:02:51 <dissipate_> i don't understand how the next 'target' is calculated for a difficulty increase. is it based on how long it took to generate the previous 2016 blocks?
  16 2011-02-13 00:02:51 MrCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  17 2011-02-13 00:02:54 <dissipate_> so if i a huge mining operation went online, generating 2016 blocks in seconds, there would be a massive difficulty increase.
  18 2011-02-13 00:03:02 <midnightmagic_> sipa: total circulation is 5.39 million BTC isn't it?
  19 2011-02-13 00:03:02 <Mango-chan> yes
  20 2011-02-13 00:03:02 Mr_Coin has joined
  21 2011-02-13 00:03:02 <midnightmagic_> sipa: Ah, i see. you saw the "$". that was habit.
  22 2011-02-13 00:03:17 <Mango-chan> dissipate
  23 2011-02-13 00:03:18 <Mango-chan> if it's gone
  24 2011-02-13 00:03:20 <sipa> oh ok
  25 2011-02-13 00:03:25 <Mango-chan> the next difficulty adjust rate will go down
  26 2011-02-13 00:03:28 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: yes, that's it.
  27 2011-02-13 00:03:42 <dissipate_> Mango-chan, by the time it gets that big no single entity could amass the resources to bring it down. not even the government.
  28 2011-02-13 00:04:06 <[Noodles]> Mango-chan:  it will go down??
  29 2011-02-13 00:04:10 <[Noodles]> how do you know?
  30 2011-02-13 00:04:13 <[Noodles]> and why?
  31 2011-02-13 00:04:22 <Mango-chan> [15:56:00] <dissipate_> so if i a huge mining operation went online, generating 2016 blocks in seconds, there would be a massive difficulty increase.
  32 2011-02-13 00:04:23 <[Noodles]> we currently create >9blocks/hour
  33 2011-02-13 00:04:33 <Mango-chan> [15:56:24] <Mango-chan> if it's [the sudden increase in processing power] gone
  34 2011-02-13 00:04:34 AAA_awright_ has joined
  35 2011-02-13 00:04:38 <midnightmagic_> confidence in it would take quite a hit if that happened..
  36 2011-02-13 00:04:38 <Mango-chan> isn't that the design?
  37 2011-02-13 00:04:42 <[Noodles]> so it'll probably go UP
  38 2011-02-13 00:04:50 <Mango-chan> why?
  39 2011-02-13 00:04:57 <[Noodles]> why not?
  40 2011-02-13 00:05:01 <Mango-chan> what
  41 2011-02-13 00:05:01 <luke-jr> dissipate: what if the one world government declares it illegal to operate computers without their trojan?
  42 2011-02-13 00:05:04 <[Noodles]> 9blocks/hour is too many
  43 2011-02-13 00:05:08 <Mango-chan> no
  44 2011-02-13 00:05:16 <[Noodles]> so it has to become more difficult to reach 6blocks/hour#
  45 2011-02-13 00:05:18 <Mango-chan> he says if he has a gpufarm and then
  46 2011-02-13 00:05:24 <Mango-chan> he could mine 2000 in seconds
  47 2011-02-13 00:05:24 <dissipate_> what would be funny is if a massive mining operation went online, rapidly jacking up the difficulty level, then went offline, making it take *ages* to generate the next block.
  48 2011-02-13 00:05:29 <Mango-chan> so then, the difficulty would go UP
  49 2011-02-13 00:05:32 <Mango-chan> but afterward
  50 2011-02-13 00:05:36 <Mango-chan> when he takes out his gpufarm
  51 2011-02-13 00:05:38 <dissipate_> luke-jr, then we are screwed, bitcoin or not.
  52 2011-02-13 00:05:40 <Mango-chan> the difficulty would go DOWN
  53 2011-02-13 00:05:41 <luke-jr> dissipate_: not funny. it would kill bitcoin
  54 2011-02-13 00:05:51 <[Noodles]> ah, well, very slowly go down ^.^
  55 2011-02-13 00:06:01 <luke-jr> Mango-chan: not until that 2016 blocks finish
  56 2011-02-13 00:06:03 <dissipate_> luke-jr, seems like a weakness to me. :O
  57 2011-02-13 00:06:04 <Mango-chan> yeah
  58 2011-02-13 00:06:07 <Mango-chan> so taking down bitcoin
  59 2011-02-13 00:06:10 <Mango-chan> isn't that "hard"
  60 2011-02-13 00:06:16 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  61 2011-02-13 00:06:18 <luke-jr> *right now*
  62 2011-02-13 00:06:19 <[Noodles]> he needs a very huge GPU-farm though
  63 2011-02-13 00:06:29 <[Noodles]> not worth the effort
  64 2011-02-13 00:06:31 <Mango-chan> he can just rent out a gpufarm
  65 2011-02-13 00:06:32 <luke-jr> ArtForz could probably kill bitcoin for months
  66 2011-02-13 00:06:34 <luke-jr> right now
  67 2011-02-13 00:06:40 <Mango-chan> he doesn't even have to pay for the hardware
  68 2011-02-13 00:06:46 <Mango-chan> he just needs to rent out a pre-existing farm
  69 2011-02-13 00:06:58 <Mango-chan> like, the entire amazon ec2, despite their shitty hardawre
  70 2011-02-13 00:07:15 <[Noodles]> IF we become THAT BIG, that we're a thread to any government, then we will also be as big, that it takes a HUGE gpu-farm
  71 2011-02-13 00:07:15 Mr_Coin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  72 2011-02-13 00:07:17 <Mango-chan> so
  73 2011-02-13 00:07:18 <Mango-chan> it comes down to the fact that who's bigger
  74 2011-02-13 00:07:27 <Mango-chan> and that's not something we can calculate now
  75 2011-02-13 00:07:27 <[Noodles]> it sure does
  76 2011-02-13 00:07:56 <Mango-chan> so theoretically, it all comes down to a game of who has the bigger guns -3-
  77 2011-02-13 00:08:03 <dissipate_> [Noodles], yep, plus those governments would have to compete with the resources of large offshore companies as well.
  78 2011-02-13 00:08:34 <Mango-chan> so say
  79 2011-02-13 00:08:41 <luke-jr> so… how can I see block maturity of my mined blocks?
  80 2011-02-13 00:08:47 <Mango-chan> what if some government become aware of bitcoin
  81 2011-02-13 00:08:52 <Mango-chan> +s
  82 2011-02-13 00:08:58 <dissipate_> luke-jr, what if someone just rented a huge GPU farm for 1 minute to jack up the difficulty level, then going offline to leave everyone with a huge difficulty level for who knows how long.
  83 2011-02-13 00:09:00 <Mango-chan> and decide in to dump like 500k~ into taking this down
  84 2011-02-13 00:09:07 <Mango-chan> or
  85 2011-02-13 00:09:09 <Mango-chan> even less
  86 2011-02-13 00:09:17 <Mango-chan> i mean for a government entity
  87 2011-02-13 00:09:19 <luke-jr> dissipate_: it would take 2016 blocks of mining to up it significantly
  88 2011-02-13 00:09:20 <Mango-chan> that amount of money is trivial
  89 2011-02-13 00:09:30 <[Noodles]> dissipate: no gpu-farm is able to generate 2016blocks in 1minute
  90 2011-02-13 00:09:41 <dissipate_> luke-jr, right, which could be mined in seconds on a big farm, i am assuming.
  91 2011-02-13 00:09:45 <Mango-chan> it doesn't have to be one minutes
  92 2011-02-13 00:09:47 <Mango-chan> -s
  93 2011-02-13 00:09:49 <[Noodles]> that'd cause some chain-splits i guess
  94 2011-02-13 00:09:57 <Mango-chan> a short amount of time would screw it up?
  95 2011-02-13 00:10:16 <dissipate_> it would be a pretty bad attack IMO
  96 2011-02-13 00:10:18 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
  97 2011-02-13 00:10:43 <[Noodles]> show me a gpu-farm that would be capable to do such an attack
  98 2011-02-13 00:10:57 <[Noodles]> you'll need a few hundred Ghash/s
  99 2011-02-13 00:11:09 <Mango-chan> a few thousand
 100 2011-02-13 00:11:11 <[Noodles]> good luck with that
 101 2011-02-13 00:11:20 <Mango-chan> who knows
 102 2011-02-13 00:11:23 <Mango-chan> the government is magical
 103 2011-02-13 00:11:24 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: you can copy your wallet to another machine, then run "bitcoind -printblocktree"
 104 2011-02-13 00:11:32 <Mango-chan> this amount of money/resource is trivial imo
 105 2011-02-13 00:11:36 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: why copy it?
 106 2011-02-13 00:11:39 <dissipate_> [Noodles], so you are saying that the equivalent of a huge GPU farm is spread out across the miners right now?
 107 2011-02-13 00:11:58 <dissipate_> [Noodles], and perhaps they wouldn't use GPUs, but some custom hardware
 108 2011-02-13 00:11:59 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: because bitcoind will try to take a lock, and the running bitcoind already has it, and the second one will just shut down.
 109 2011-02-13 00:12:04 <midnightmagic_> rather than printing out the block tree.
 110 2011-02-13 00:12:05 <[Noodles]> the miners actually ARE are huge GPU+CPU farm
 111 2011-02-13 00:12:17 <[Noodles]> what else are miners?
 112 2011-02-13 00:12:20 <Mango-chan> yes
 113 2011-02-13 00:12:25 <Mango-chan> custom sha-256 hardawre
 114 2011-02-13 00:12:30 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_ that's exactly right. what are they? something like 210GH/s right now? that's a lot.
 115 2011-02-13 00:12:38 <[Noodles]> and that farm actually does 240Ghash/s
 116 2011-02-13 00:12:42 <midnightmagic_> 240 now?
 117 2011-02-13 00:12:45 <luke-jr> does poclbm show my time or UTC?
 118 2011-02-13 00:12:50 <Mango-chan> UTC
 119 2011-02-13 00:12:51 <[Noodles]> to create 9blocks/hour
 120 2011-02-13 00:12:54 <Mango-chan> or
 121 2011-02-13 00:12:54 <Mango-chan> idk
 122 2011-02-13 00:12:56 <[Noodles]> now
 123 2011-02-13 00:13:28 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: it doesn't do aynthing
 124 2011-02-13 00:13:39 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, let's see what happens when people start getting their electric bills, and guys like Mango-chan get kicked out of their dorm rooms. :P
 125 2011-02-13 00:13:46 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: check the .bitcoin/debug.log
 126 2011-02-13 00:13:51 <midnightmagic_> dissipate_: awesome. :-)
 127 2011-02-13 00:14:00 <Mango-chan> dissipate what
 128 2011-02-13 00:14:05 <[Noodles]> so u'll need >5500Ghash/s to create 2016blocks in 1minute ^.^
 129 2011-02-13 00:14:10 <Mango-chan> i'm pretty sure it's not in my housing contract
 130 2011-02-13 00:14:12 <Mango-chan> hm
 131 2011-02-13 00:14:13 <Mango-chan> that's right
 132 2011-02-13 00:14:17 <Mango-chan> i guess
 133 2011-02-13 00:14:18 <[Noodles]> and a lot of luck
 134 2011-02-13 00:14:20 <Mango-chan> when we get that big
 135 2011-02-13 00:14:26 <Mango-chan> you need a network that scales 1000x~
 136 2011-02-13 00:14:34 <Mango-chan> to play "catch up" with a legit block chain
 137 2011-02-13 00:14:46 <Mango-chan> since it's the longest one which realms king
 138 2011-02-13 00:14:53 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
 139 2011-02-13 00:14:53 <gribble> 107735
 140 2011-02-13 00:15:01 <midnightmagic_> 5500 GHash would be.. what.. 9800 5970 cards?
 141 2011-02-13 00:15:12 <Mango-chan> or one nsa supercomputer
 142 2011-02-13 00:15:15 <rlifchitz> http://www.clubic.com/technologies-d-avenir/actualite-396232-ibm-supercalculateur-10-petaflops.html : this one has 7166 GPUs
 143 2011-02-13 00:15:19 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
 144 2011-02-13 00:15:21 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107735 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1128 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 2 hours, 38 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33395.81170396
 145 2011-02-13 00:15:24 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 146 2011-02-13 00:15:28 <[Noodles]> and after those 2016blocks are created you'll need 20 000Ghash for the next 2016blocks
 147 2011-02-13 00:15:36 <dissipate_> [Noodles], once again this is assuming there isn't  custom  hardware that could hash much faster than a GPU.
 148 2011-02-13 00:15:40 <rlifchitz> 2.57 petaflops
 149 2011-02-13 00:15:56 <[Noodles]> dissipate: it doesnt matter which hardware u use
 150 2011-02-13 00:16:04 <[Noodles]> that's totally up to you
 151 2011-02-13 00:16:07 <Mango-chan> The computer had cost $88 million to build and around $20 million annually for costs involving energy intake and operating costs. It also has to have 200 workers in order to have it operate and function properly. [18]
 152 2011-02-13 00:16:08 <Mango-chan> lol
 153 2011-02-13 00:16:12 <Mango-chan> $88 million
 154 2011-02-13 00:16:33 <dissipate_> [Noodles], has anyone estimated the cost at bringing down Bitcoin?
 155 2011-02-13 00:16:51 <[Noodles]> i didn't
 156 2011-02-13 00:16:57 <Mango-chan> i mean the govnerment puts in
 157 2011-02-13 00:17:00 <[Noodles]> you got the numbers, do the math
 158 2011-02-13 00:17:05 <Mango-chan> billions for defense
 159 2011-02-13 00:17:25 <[Noodles]> it makes no sense to spend 20million to bring a 5million economy down
 160 2011-02-13 00:17:33 <midnightmagic_> exactly. :)
 161 2011-02-13 00:17:36 <sipa> bringing down bitcoin almost certainly requires you to have >50% of the network
 162 2011-02-13 00:17:40 <dissipate_> [Noodles], but you agree a government could bring it down if it wanted to spend the money, right?
 163 2011-02-13 00:17:47 <[Noodles]> yes
 164 2011-02-13 00:17:50 <sipa> which is not expensive for any government currently
 165 2011-02-13 00:17:54 <[Noodles]> right now, that would be possible
 166 2011-02-13 00:17:57 <dissipate_> [Noodles], oh ok, then we agree.
 167 2011-02-13 00:18:09 <[Noodles]> but it would be expensive
 168 2011-02-13 00:18:18 <Mango-chan> expensive to us
 169 2011-02-13 00:18:20 <Mango-chan> not the gov't
 170 2011-02-13 00:18:22 <dissipate_> [Noodles], but do you believe it would be nearly impossible for a single organization to bring down bitcoin if it got much larger in the future?
 171 2011-02-13 00:18:25 <[Noodles]> to every tax-payer
 172 2011-02-13 00:18:36 <[Noodles]> yes
 173 2011-02-13 00:18:44 <[Noodles]> else i wouldnt invest into bitcoin
 174 2011-02-13 00:18:52 <dissipate_> [Noodles], ok, then we agree on that too. :)
 175 2011-02-13 00:19:13 Mr_Coin has joined
 176 2011-02-13 00:19:25 <dissipate_> Mango-chan, the gist of it is that bitcoin would never be profitable to bring down. the amount it would cost 1 organization is more than the entire bitcoin economy is worth.
 177 2011-02-13 00:19:34 <JFK911> Looking like difficulty's going to jump over 50%?
 178 2011-02-13 00:19:38 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 179 2011-02-13 00:19:48 <sipa> JFK911: ?
 180 2011-02-13 00:19:50 <JFK911> Oh, I'm not so good at math.
 181 2011-02-13 00:19:57 <Mango-chan> hm
 182 2011-02-13 00:20:02 <dissipate_> 50%?? great scott!
 183 2011-02-13 00:20:06 <Mango-chan> i guess it depends on how you define profitable
 184 2011-02-13 00:20:13 molecular has joined
 185 2011-02-13 00:20:13 <sipa> difficulty isn't measured in %
 186 2011-02-13 00:20:14 <[Noodles]> i don't expect a 50% growth, but >20% isn not that unlikely
 187 2011-02-13 00:20:29 <sipa> [Noodles]: in what time frame?
 188 2011-02-13 00:20:31 <[Noodles]> last jump was 18%
 189 2011-02-13 00:20:40 <sipa> oh, per retarget
 190 2011-02-13 00:20:46 <[Noodles]> sipa: the usual 2016 blockframe
 191 2011-02-13 00:20:47 <RBecker> 50% jump in difficulty would make the next difficulty 38995
 192 2011-02-13 00:20:48 <molecular> luke-jr, not sure wether I caught your comment. what was it?
 193 2011-02-13 00:20:52 <dissipate_> Mango-chan, the government is not afraid of a $5 million operation. and if bitcoin grew to billions, the difficulty would be so high, not even a government could bring it down. by the time it got on the government
 194 2011-02-13 00:21:00 <dissipate_> government's radar, it would be too late
 195 2011-02-13 00:21:02 <luke-jr> [Saturday, February 12, 2011] [11:41:32 am] <Ljrn900> "international decimal association" now known as SI
 196 2011-02-13 00:21:04 <luke-jr> [Saturday, February 12, 2011] [11:41:35 am] <Ljrn900> the book is older than hexadecimal and SI-the-system
 197 2011-02-13 00:21:26 <molecular> yeah, caught that, thx
 198 2011-02-13 00:21:30 <luke-jr> sipa: actually, difficulty *is* measured in %
 199 2011-02-13 00:21:37 <Mango-chan> hm
 200 2011-02-13 00:21:39 <Mango-chan> lol
 201 2011-02-13 00:21:48 <luke-jr> sortof
 202 2011-02-13 00:21:50 <Mango-chan> given the fact that the government IS the type
 203 2011-02-13 00:21:55 MartianW has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 204 2011-02-13 00:21:55 <JFK911> Well, the nullvoid thing says it's predicting 33k now.  Last time it went from 22k to 26k.
 205 2011-02-13 00:22:02 <Mango-chan> to act when something is "considered" a threat
 206 2011-02-13 00:22:04 <Mango-chan> it'd be too late
 207 2011-02-13 00:22:08 <JFK911> And the rate seems to be increasing faster than it's predicting.
 208 2011-02-13 00:22:23 <dissipate_> can't you predict next difficulty by taking the average time to generate a block?
 209 2011-02-13 00:22:26 <sipa> but if someone were to try a >50% attack, surely they wouldn't activate all nodes at the same time
 210 2011-02-13 00:22:33 <[Noodles]> that's an estimate JFK, because we currently create 9blocks/hour, that might change in a day
 211 2011-02-13 00:22:34 <sipa> that'd be way too suspicious
 212 2011-02-13 00:22:45 <JFK911> dissipate_: If I have it right, difficulty is adjusted to level out the block creation rate.
 213 2011-02-13 00:22:57 <sipa> do it spread over 2 months, and noone will notice
 214 2011-02-13 00:23:19 <sipa> just a slightly higher difficulty increase during that time
 215 2011-02-13 00:23:23 <dissipate_> JFK911, right, so you could predict in real time the next difficulty increase by looking at the total number of blocks generated since the last increase divided by time.
 216 2011-02-13 00:23:34 <molecular> dissipate, JFK911 I think that's what nullvoid does: assume current net hashing power and extrapolate. doesnt accomodate for the nonlinear aspect of the growth
 217 2011-02-13 00:23:46 <JFK911> Maybe all these noobs will be frustrated when the rate jumps, and leave.
 218 2011-02-13 00:23:53 <JFK911> Could the difficulty go back down then?
 219 2011-02-13 00:23:59 <dissipate_> JFK911, yep
 220 2011-02-13 00:23:59 <[Noodles]> some will be frustrated sooner
 221 2011-02-13 00:24:09 <molecular> JFK911, they'll be frustrated when (if) the exchange rate drops ;)
 222 2011-02-13 00:24:20 <JFK911> How long do people have to return the video cards they got this week?
 223 2011-02-13 00:24:27 <molecular> lol
 224 2011-02-13 00:24:30 <JFK911> Newegg sold out of their cheapest 5870 after slashdot.
 225 2011-02-13 00:24:30 <dissipate_> molecular, doesn't my formula work for real time calculation?
 226 2011-02-13 00:24:32 <molecular> probably 2 weeks
 227 2011-02-13 00:24:34 <sipa> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3024.msg42173#msg42173
 228 2011-02-13 00:24:59 <molecular> dissipate, "your formula" = "assume current creation rate and extrapolate" ?
 229 2011-02-13 00:25:08 <dissipate_> dissipate, no
 230 2011-02-13 00:25:12 <dissipate_> er, molecular no
 231 2011-02-13 00:25:17 <molecular> lol
 232 2011-02-13 00:25:25 Lube has quit ()
 233 2011-02-13 00:25:26 <molecular> ok, what's your formula again?
 234 2011-02-13 00:25:26 <dissipate_> molecular, my formula is simply IF difficulty were to increase now
 235 2011-02-13 00:25:38 <sipa> it can't
 236 2011-02-13 00:25:39 <molecular> ah!
 237 2011-02-13 00:25:43 <molecular> well, I think that's the same
 238 2011-02-13 00:25:55 <dissipate_> molecular, total number of blocks generated since last increase divided by time
 239 2011-02-13 00:26:04 <sipa> it's defined based on the time the previous 2016 blocks took
 240 2011-02-13 00:26:29 <dissipate_> er, divided by time since last increase
 241 2011-02-13 00:26:30 <sipa> and since there were no 2016 blocks since the last increase, you need to do either some extrapolation or some correction
 242 2011-02-13 00:26:58 TD_ has joined
 243 2011-02-13 00:26:59 <dissipate_> sipa, i'm not talking about prediction, just a real time snapshot of where we are at now.
 244 2011-02-13 00:27:11 <molecular> yeah, dissipate is proposing to ask: what would be the diff if it was not 2016, but 889 blocks (now)
 245 2011-02-13 00:27:20 <dissipate_> sipa, predicting actual increase would be difficult depending on how many blocks away you are from next increase.
 246 2011-02-13 00:27:21 <[Noodles]> either way it's a prediction, you don't know what'll happen in the next few days, not to mention weeks, or months
 247 2011-02-13 00:27:22 <sipa> dissipate_: for the difficulty or for the hashing rate?
 248 2011-02-13 00:27:33 <sipa> those are two separate (yet somewhat related) things
 249 2011-02-13 00:28:08 <molecular> currently one would probably best assume some exponential-type function for the total net hashrate
 250 2011-02-13 00:28:13 <dissipate_> sipa, i'm talking about using current hashing rate to calculate difficulty *if* difficulty were based on current hashing rate. that's all.
 251 2011-02-13 00:28:34 <molecular> yeah, thats 33399 currently, what nullvoid says
 252 2011-02-13 00:28:37 <sipa> i have a rather nice formula for measuring the hashing speed
 253 2011-02-13 00:28:56 <dissipate_> molecular, and what % increase is that compared to current difficulty?
 254 2011-02-13 00:29:10 <sipa> based on a maximum-likelyhood fitted exponentially increasing function thought an exponentially decreasing windows
 255 2011-02-13 00:29:17 <molecular> don't know. guessing around 38000
 256 2011-02-13 00:29:37 <sipa> it's used for the graphs here: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3024.msg42173#msg42173
 257 2011-02-13 00:30:13 <molecular> yeah, that graph is cool
 258 2011-02-13 00:30:26 <molecular> you can see the exponentiality starting 02'11
 259 2011-02-13 00:30:27 <sipa> the exact value differs based on the window you choose
 260 2011-02-13 00:30:38 <molecular> oh yes
 261 2011-02-13 00:30:43 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 262 2011-02-13 00:30:49 <sipa> in practice it's between 240 and 260 GH/s now
 263 2011-02-13 00:30:59 <sipa> but hard to say more accurately
 264 2011-02-13 00:31:22 <MT`AwAy> anyone can find out who's ip is this? 87.150.216.72 (this guy replaced the donation bitcoin addresses on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Donation-accepting_organizations_and_projects )
 265 2011-02-13 00:31:53 <dissipate_> looking at a 28% difficulty increase it looks like
 266 2011-02-13 00:32:06 <molecular> I think it's going to be more
 267 2011-02-13 00:32:20 Mr_Coin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 268 2011-02-13 00:32:25 <molecular> 45%
 269 2011-02-13 00:32:47 <molecular> but maybe not, slashdot-effect or whatever it was might be over...
 270 2011-02-13 00:32:59 <dissipate_> molecular, what about psychology? if people think it is going to go way up, they may bow out now. of course that increases the opportunity for others to get more BTC. :D
 271 2011-02-13 00:32:59 <sipa> i estimate some 3-3.5% daily growth currently
 272 2011-02-13 00:33:03 Mr_Coin has joined
 273 2011-02-13 00:33:16 <sipa> i was close to 1% a week ago
 274 2011-02-13 00:33:47 <molecular> sipa, hmm, that introduces another "unknown": number of blocks generated per day
 275 2011-02-13 00:34:14 <sipa> true
 276 2011-02-13 00:34:25 <molecular> 2016 in two weeks? we're gonna do it in much less this time. so one can not simply do pow(1.035,14)
 277 2011-02-13 00:34:32 <sipa> indeed
 278 2011-02-13 00:34:48 <dissipate_> good god
 279 2011-02-13 00:34:53 <sipa> though it is possible to convert one in the other
 280 2011-02-13 00:34:54 <dissipate_> that's a steep chart
 281 2011-02-13 00:34:59 <sipa> it's harder than that
 282 2011-02-13 00:35:26 <molecular> pow(1.035,11) = 1.46 == the 46% I said, so 3.5% per day sounds about right ;)
 283 2011-02-13 00:35:53 <dissipate_> sipa, at a certain point pretty much everyone will have to join a mining pool, or be left with nothing, yes or no?
 284 2011-02-13 00:35:54 <molecular> *45% I said
 285 2011-02-13 00:36:17 <sipa> dissipate_: i think so, yes
 286 2011-02-13 00:36:24 <[Noodles]> that
 287 2011-02-13 00:36:28 <dissipate_> molecular, mining pools pretty much mandatory to get BTC in the future? agree?
 288 2011-02-13 00:36:32 <[Noodles]> 's why we need more pools
 289 2011-02-13 00:36:33 <molecular> if you remove "pretty", the question is a lot harder to answer
 290 2011-02-13 00:36:53 <sipa> currently it's still possible for individuals to mine profitably and reliably on their own
 291 2011-02-13 00:36:57 <sipa> but it's getting harder
 292 2011-02-13 00:37:07 <molecular> I'm not so sure. It could be a _lot_ of people use network node
 293 2011-02-13 00:37:14 <molecular> is "generate coins" checked by default?
 294 2011-02-13 00:37:17 <sipa> network node?
 295 2011-02-13 00:37:27 <molecular> well, run a client
 296 2011-02-13 00:37:37 <molecular> to be able to use bitcoins (not specifically to mine)
 297 2011-02-13 00:37:45 <sipa> sure
 298 2011-02-13 00:37:52 <molecular> such masses can be overwhelming
 299 2011-02-13 00:38:41 <molecular> i think there will be more hashing power from "big individuals" than from pools
 300 2011-02-13 00:38:46 <dissipate_> sipa, and in 6 months? could be impossible.
 301 2011-02-13 00:38:53 <molecular> maybe the client should default to pooled mining??
 302 2011-02-13 00:39:01 <[Noodles]> i doubt that, molecular
 303 2011-02-13 00:39:08 <dissipate_> molecular, who runs the pool and under what terms??
 304 2011-02-13 00:39:21 <[Noodles]> 50Ghash from single individuals?
 305 2011-02-13 00:39:21 <molecular> the "default"-pool? well, that's a big problem
 306 2011-02-13 00:39:32 <molecular> oh yeah, artforz will have it
 307 2011-02-13 00:39:42 <[Noodles]> yeah, but that's the only one
 308 2011-02-13 00:39:48 <molecular> more will follow (envy)
 309 2011-02-13 00:40:27 <[Noodles]> why didn't they yet?
 310 2011-02-13 00:40:37 <[Noodles]> if they got the money
 311 2011-02-13 00:40:38 gmci has joined
 312 2011-02-13 00:40:59 <dissipate_> molecular, having a default pool could cause a lot of bitching! :O
 313 2011-02-13 00:41:05 <[Noodles]> the longre they wait, the more power they'll need
 314 2011-02-13 00:42:01 RichardG has joined
 315 2011-02-13 00:42:28 <molecular> oh yes, bitching!
 316 2011-02-13 00:42:35 <[Noodles]> in a (hopefully distant) future, the majority of users wont be mining, they'll just use the network
 317 2011-02-13 00:42:54 <RichardG> long time no see
 318 2011-02-13 00:42:59 <dissipate_> molecular, what if the default pool takes a 50% rake? :P
 319 2011-02-13 00:43:09 <RichardG> got a new PC, too bad it can only cpumine
 320 2011-02-13 00:43:20 <RichardG> will 4way work on a pentium dual core e5300?
 321 2011-02-13 00:43:26 <molecular> thanks, [Noodles], that was my hypothesis -> therefor no big pools (maybe one)
 322 2011-02-13 00:43:54 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 323 2011-02-13 00:43:54 <molecular> many network nodes, not mining
 324 2011-02-13 00:43:57 <[Noodles]> why maybe one?
 325 2011-02-13 00:44:05 <[Noodles]> hopefully more soon
 326 2011-02-13 00:44:12 <[Noodles]> we need more pools already
 327 2011-02-13 00:44:22 <molecular> yes, more soon, only one left in distant future (14 years)
 328 2011-02-13 00:44:31 <[Noodles]> nah, i dont think so
 329 2011-02-13 00:44:32 <dissipate_> [Noodles], what does that have to do with mining pools?
 330 2011-02-13 00:44:33 gmci has left ("Leaving...")
 331 2011-02-13 00:44:47 <[Noodles]> if pools exist in the future, it'll be some, not only one
 332 2011-02-13 00:45:00 <[Noodles]> why should it just be one?
 333 2011-02-13 00:45:07 <sipa> it's definitely possible to have some pools
 334 2011-02-13 00:45:08 <[Noodles]> why does the operate...operate it?
 335 2011-02-13 00:45:11 <noagendamarket> I want someone to patch age of empires so it lets me mine for coins while virtually mining and any coins lets me get more stuff in game.
 336 2011-02-13 00:45:12 <[Noodles]> profit i guess
 337 2011-02-13 00:45:13 <sipa> maybe a dozen
 338 2011-02-13 00:45:26 <[Noodles]> if there's profit, more than one admin will try to get that profit
 339 2011-02-13 00:45:29 <noagendamarket> That would be a pool Id join lol
 340 2011-02-13 00:45:32 <molecular> you're probably right. I'll say something different: cumulative power from pools will be <30%
 341 2011-02-13 00:45:34 <dissipate_> [Noodles], i mentioned that pools will be the only way for an individual miner to get BTC. molecular then said that maybe there should be a default pool
 342 2011-02-13 00:45:37 <[Noodles]> result==lots of pools
 343 2011-02-13 00:45:42 <sipa> molecular: doubt that
 344 2011-02-13 00:46:03 <molecular> I would hope that majority of mining power comes from "many small individuals"
 345 2011-02-13 00:46:09 <molecular> but I fear it might not be the case
 346 2011-02-13 00:46:23 <sipa> slush's pool currently has already >15% of the hashing power
 347 2011-02-13 00:46:25 <[Noodles]> molecular: that would mean >70% comes from individuals, which is almost impossible to achieve
 348 2011-02-13 00:46:35 <molecular> why
 349 2011-02-13 00:46:44 <sipa> small individuals won't be both profitable and reliable
 350 2011-02-13 00:47:11 <[Noodles]> because it takes years to mine as an individual, if you dont have a few hundred Ghashes
 351 2011-02-13 00:47:13 <sipa> you will need specialized hardware, which is an investment
 352 2011-02-13 00:47:25 <[Noodles]> you need clients to mine==pool
 353 2011-02-13 00:47:41 <sipa> and if you don't have a significant part, the payouts will be way too infrequent
 354 2011-02-13 00:47:52 <[Noodles]> why spend hundreds for hardware, when you can just ask your customers todo it for some coins in return?
 355 2011-02-13 00:47:53 <molecular> does "come from individula" only mean individuals mining solo or also individuals using a pool?
 356 2011-02-13 00:48:33 RichardG has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 357 2011-02-13 00:49:35 <sipa> mining solo
 358 2011-02-13 00:49:42 <[Noodles]> i see a few "commercial-pools" in the future, sponsored by big companys, paying users to mine for them
 359 2011-02-13 00:50:10 <molecular> what about "commercial individuals", like art, do they count as individual or commercial?
 360 2011-02-13 00:50:29 <molecular> I think we're talking about two kinds of individuals: professionals and amateures or sth
 361 2011-02-13 00:50:30 <jgarzik> we definitely need more pools.  I tried to help, by creating a server that people could use to start their own...
 362 2011-02-13 00:50:37 <[Noodles]> huh? individual vs pool makes sense
 363 2011-02-13 00:50:40 <jgarzik> just rewrote it in C, too, for my commercial pool that's coming
 364 2011-02-13 00:50:47 <[Noodles]> individual vs commercial does not
 365 2011-02-13 00:50:49 * jgarzik ponders banning CPU miners
 366 2011-02-13 00:50:52 RichardG has joined
 367 2011-02-13 00:50:58 <molecular> does bitpenny use your server, jgarzik
 368 2011-02-13 00:51:03 <jgarzik> molecular: no
 369 2011-02-13 00:51:04 <RichardG> hey all, long time no see
 370 2011-02-13 00:51:10 <RichardG> will 4way work on a
 371 2011-02-13 00:51:15 <RichardG> CPU: Pentium Dual-Core E5700
 372 2011-02-13 00:51:16 <molecular> which pools exist? slush, bitpenny,...
 373 2011-02-13 00:51:22 <[Noodles]> bitpenny is the first "commercial" pool, although it's currently operating at a loss
 374 2011-02-13 00:51:33 <jgarzik> slush arguably just went commercial
 375 2011-02-13 00:51:39 <Mango-chan> "donations"
 376 2011-02-13 00:51:45 <[Noodles]> yeah, noticed that
 377 2011-02-13 00:51:47 <molecular> fair enough
 378 2011-02-13 00:51:51 <molecular> any "free" pools?
 379 2011-02-13 00:51:53 <Mango-chan> what do you need to run a pool
 380 2011-02-13 00:51:58 <Mango-chan> just bandwidth?
 381 2011-02-13 00:52:08 <[Noodles]> mostly i guess
 382 2011-02-13 00:52:13 <sipa> i've been pondering about a P2P pool
 383 2011-02-13 00:52:14 <Mango-chan> is running one cpu intensive
 384 2011-02-13 00:52:16 <molecular> probably some devotion and a hard skin
 385 2011-02-13 00:52:36 <sipa> where nodes decide automatically who to share their profits with
 386 2011-02-13 00:52:43 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
 387 2011-02-13 00:53:06 <sipa> based on low-difficulty blocks they solve and they include eachother in
 388 2011-02-13 00:53:13 <sipa> in the generating tx
 389 2011-02-13 00:53:25 <sipa> but it's very hard to prevent abuse
 390 2011-02-13 00:53:26 <RichardG> I need to renew my membership on xelister's CPU miners' fund...
 391 2011-02-13 00:53:33 <molecular> sipa: won't you need a target address for the 50BTC everyone agrees on?
 392 2011-02-13 00:53:36 <RichardG> I got a new PC, pentium dual-core...
 393 2011-02-13 00:53:38 <sipa> molecular: no
 394 2011-02-13 00:53:42 <RichardG> but it has an intel igp
 395 2011-02-13 00:53:42 <molecular> or how do you want to ensure the finder of the block actually distributes the revenue?
 396 2011-02-13 00:53:44 <Mango-chan> http://www.100tb.com/ <-
 397 2011-02-13 00:53:50 <sipa> there can be more than one target address
 398 2011-02-13 00:53:53 <Mango-chan> soemone pool together 200$ to run a superpool
 399 2011-02-13 00:54:19 <sipa> slush doesn't use that feature, don't know about other pools
 400 2011-02-13 00:54:42 <RichardG> okay i'll try running 4way myself and see if it works
 401 2011-02-13 00:54:43 <molecular> I don't understand how there can be more than one target address... one for each worker?
 402 2011-02-13 00:54:50 <sipa> molecular: yes
 403 2011-02-13 00:55:03 <dissipate_> molecular, what do you mean by target address?
 404 2011-02-13 00:55:03 <molecular> what keeps me from keeping a found block for myself?
 405 2011-02-13 00:55:16 <sipa> molecular: the fact that that will cause others to stop mining for you
 406 2011-02-13 00:55:22 <molecular> hm, address given in the block as recipient of 50 BTC transaction
 407 2011-02-13 00:55:35 <sipa> just have a generating tx with more than one output
 408 2011-02-13 00:55:38 <molecular> how will they ever know I ripped them off?
 409 2011-02-13 00:55:40 <dissipate_> molecular, you could, but you would get nothing from it.
 410 2011-02-13 00:55:45 <molecular> ah!
 411 2011-02-13 00:55:49 <sipa> molecular: because they see the block chain
 412 2011-02-13 00:56:00 <molecular> you can do that? more than one output for the 50BTC?
 413 2011-02-13 00:56:05 <sipa> yes
 414 2011-02-13 00:56:11 <sipa> it's perfectly legal
 415 2011-02-13 00:56:13 <[Noodles]> 200$ for a "superpool"? not that super, is it?
 416 2011-02-13 00:56:25 <molecular> so when the p2p-pool generates a block it will always contain <number of workers in pool/> transactions?
 417 2011-02-13 00:56:27 <Mango-chan> why
 418 2011-02-13 00:56:27 <dissipate_> molecular, each block has the 50 coin tx in it with the public address. the mining pool gives you a block to work on with the mining pool's address embedded in the tx for the block.
 419 2011-02-13 00:56:35 <Mango-chan> 200$/month
 420 2011-02-13 00:56:40 <Mango-chan> 100tb worth of bandwidth~
 421 2011-02-13 00:56:47 <[Noodles]> ah, /month
 422 2011-02-13 00:56:54 <Mango-chan> (i think it's within their tos?)
 423 2011-02-13 00:56:57 <sipa> molecular: no it will contain 1 generating transaction with N outputs, and M normal transaction just as generated blocks have now
 424 2011-02-13 00:57:11 <sipa> and what those N outputs are, will be based on P2P decisions
 425 2011-02-13 00:57:12 <[Noodles]> tos can be changed
 426 2011-02-13 00:57:18 <Mango-chan> it's only one server
 427 2011-02-13 00:57:19 <Mango-chan> doing it
 428 2011-02-13 00:57:20 <[Noodles]> at any time ^.^
 429 2011-02-13 00:57:24 <Mango-chan> i doubt they'd change their tos
 430 2011-02-13 00:57:26 <Mango-chan> for it
 431 2011-02-13 00:57:35 <Mango-chan> it's not like we're doing anything illegal right!
 432 2011-02-13 00:57:42 <[Noodles]> nope
 433 2011-02-13 00:57:49 <[Noodles]> well, just do it
 434 2011-02-13 00:57:55 <jgarzik> JSON-RPC is incredibly wasteful, /especially/ when stupid clients (hello m0mchil, Diablo-D3) use decades-old HTTP/1.0 rather than HTTP/1.1 with persistent connections
 435 2011-02-13 00:57:55 <[Noodles]> noone holds you back
 436 2011-02-13 00:58:07 <jgarzik> tons of wasteage for slush that way
 437 2011-02-13 00:58:17 <molecular> sipa, you blow my mind... M = number of workers in pool? N = number of some intermediary transaction nodes handled by p2p net?
 438 2011-02-13 00:58:35 <sipa> N = number of workers in pool (or less)
 439 2011-02-13 00:58:49 <sipa> M = number of transactions included in block (as is done now)
 440 2011-02-13 00:58:53 <molecular> sipa, you you go 50 BTC -> N -> M in the generated block?
 441 2011-02-13 00:58:58 <molecular> ah, sorry
 442 2011-02-13 00:58:59 <molecular> ok
 443 2011-02-13 00:59:04 <dissipate_> sipa, are you talking about a peer 2 peer mining pool or what?
 444 2011-02-13 00:59:06 <RichardG> <jgarzik> JSON-RPC is incredibly wasteful, /especially/ when stupid clients (hello m0mchil, Diablo-D3) use decades-old HTTP/1.0 rather than HTTP/1.1 with persistent connections
 445 2011-02-13 00:59:08 <sipa> dissipate_: yes
 446 2011-02-13 00:59:09 <RichardG> 100% agreed
 447 2011-02-13 00:59:12 <molecular> M = the usual "outside" transactions?
 448 2011-02-13 00:59:16 <RichardG> binary would be a nice save of bandwidth
 449 2011-02-13 00:59:16 <sipa> molecular: yes
 450 2011-02-13 00:59:22 <dissipate_> sipa, who gets the blocks??
 451 2011-02-13 00:59:27 <sipa> the miners
 452 2011-02-13 00:59:28 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 453 2011-02-13 00:59:32 <sipa> directly
 454 2011-02-13 00:59:32 <molecular> ok, no for "N or less". that's the individuals in the pool?
 455 2011-02-13 00:59:36 <jgarzik> RichardG: I rewrote the mining protocol into binary.  Should help.
 456 2011-02-13 00:59:44 <dissipate_> sipa, gotta trust someone to distribute them.
 457 2011-02-13 00:59:47 <sipa> no
 458 2011-02-13 00:59:52 <dissipate_> oh?
 459 2011-02-13 00:59:53 <sipa> you distribute them yourself
 460 2011-02-13 00:59:54 <RichardG> oh and two questions
 461 2011-02-13 00:59:57 <RichardG> 1. will 4way work on a pentium dual-core e5700
 462 2011-02-13 00:59:59 <dissipate_> sipa, how so?
 463 2011-02-13 01:00:03 <RichardG> 2. are there any x64 miners out there
 464 2011-02-13 01:00:12 <molecular> sipa, it's based on reputation?
 465 2011-02-13 01:00:16 <jgarzik> what is x64?
 466 2011-02-13 01:00:18 <jgarzik> x86-64?
 467 2011-02-13 01:00:20 <RichardG> yes
 468 2011-02-13 01:00:23 <RichardG> windows to be precise
 469 2011-02-13 01:00:26 <sipa> molecular: say we two form a pool
 470 2011-02-13 01:00:30 <molecular> ja
 471 2011-02-13 01:00:34 <sipa> equal power
 472 2011-02-13 01:00:34 <jgarzik> RichardG: you can recompile into 64-bit easily
 473 2011-02-13 01:00:44 <sipa> you include me in your gen tx's
 474 2011-02-13 01:00:48 <RichardG> jgarzik: that's what I'm getting visual studio for
 475 2011-02-13 01:00:51 <sipa> i include you in my gen tx's
 476 2011-02-13 01:00:55 <molecular> allright so far
 477 2011-02-13 01:00:59 <sipa> for a certain percentage
 478 2011-02-13 01:01:05 <molecular> 50% ?
 479 2011-02-13 01:01:07 <[Noodles]> jgarzik: any plans to add GPU support to you miner anytime soon?
 480 2011-02-13 01:01:08 <sipa> (not necessarily 50%)
 481 2011-02-13 01:01:13 <dissipate_> sipa, sounds like a honor system to me.
 482 2011-02-13 01:01:13 <sipa> but equal %
 483 2011-02-13 01:01:15 <jgarzik> RichardG: but really, CPU mining is only useful if you have free electricity and the noise doesn't bother you
 484 2011-02-13 01:01:22 <jgarzik> [Noodles]: why, yes...  :)
 485 2011-02-13 01:01:27 <[Noodles]> kewl ^.^
 486 2011-02-13 01:01:31 <sipa> when i find a low-difficulty block, i show it to you
 487 2011-02-13 01:01:33 <dissipate_> jgarzik, CPU mining is almost worthless. :O
 488 2011-02-13 01:01:49 <sipa> since i had to decide who to mine for before i acutally started mining
 489 2011-02-13 01:01:49 <molecular> ah, and I veryfy you have me in the transaction 50% (or whatever)
 490 2011-02-13 01:02:02 <molecular> ok, cool
 491 2011-02-13 01:02:17 <Diablo-D3> [07:51:16] <jgarzik> JSON-RPC is incredibly wasteful, /especially/ when stupid clients (hello m0mchil, Diablo-D3) use decades-old HTTP/1.0 rather than HTTP/1.1 with persistent connections
 492 2011-02-13 01:02:21 <sipa> you can consider my showing that block - even if it doesn't generate any real BTC - as a proof that i trust you
 493 2011-02-13 01:02:23 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik fails at the internet forever
 494 2011-02-13 01:02:36 <molecular> so I could measure the diff1-proofs I get from you and give you back equally in my diff1-proofs
 495 2011-02-13 01:02:43 <sipa> exactly
 496 2011-02-13 01:02:45 <sipa> that's the idea
 497 2011-02-13 01:02:47 <jgarzik> RichardG: check http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php before deciding much else...
 498 2011-02-13 01:02:48 <molecular> fine thinking
 499 2011-02-13 01:02:54 <molecular> can it work?
 500 2011-02-13 01:02:54 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: my client uses whatever the other end negotiates.
 501 2011-02-13 01:03:00 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: its compatible with keepalive
 502 2011-02-13 01:03:08 <RichardG> jgarzik: did slush's pool break
 503 2011-02-13 01:03:09 <RichardG> HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error: 400
 504 2011-02-13 01:03:10 <sipa> measure how much others include you in their blocks, and include them proportionally
 505 2011-02-13 01:03:18 <jgarzik> RichardG: did you turn on donations?
 506 2011-02-13 01:03:19 <molecular> yeah, friggin nifty
 507 2011-02-13 01:03:20 <Diablo-D3> RichardG: works for me
 508 2011-02-13 01:03:22 <sipa> the only hard thing is abuse prevention
 509 2011-02-13 01:03:24 <RichardG> oh, donations
 510 2011-02-13 01:03:27 <RichardG> didnt know was mandatory now
 511 2011-02-13 01:03:33 <molecular> what would an abuse-case look like?
 512 2011-02-13 01:03:34 <sipa> molecular: but between trusted clients, yes it could definitely work
 513 2011-02-13 01:03:52 <RichardG> done set donations
 514 2011-02-13 01:03:56 <molecular> why they need to be trusted at all, can you run me through an abuse-case?
 515 2011-02-13 01:04:06 <molecular> does abuse work with a pool just you and me?
 516 2011-02-13 01:04:06 <RichardG> but I still get 400s...
 517 2011-02-13 01:04:10 <sipa> there are two abuses i know of
 518 2011-02-13 01:04:35 <sipa> one is the "typical" vandalism, i just withold blocks if they really generate bitcoins
 519 2011-02-13 01:04:53 <molecular> that will harm the abuser
 520 2011-02-13 01:04:57 <sipa> that'd be bad for me as well of course, but if i just want to vandalise, that may not be a problem
 521 2011-02-13 01:05:11 <sipa> and that's something the current pools are vulnerable for too
 522 2011-02-13 01:05:18 <molecular> ok, I think I can rebutt that one, but what's the other case?
 523 2011-02-13 01:05:50 <RichardG> did anyone here take a while to have pooled mining reactivated
 524 2011-02-13 01:05:54 <RichardG> after setting a donation amount?
 525 2011-02-13 01:06:09 <sipa> another attack is wait for a statistical variation in my advantage (someone giving me occasionally more than i deserve - this will always happen in small or larger degrees)
 526 2011-02-13 01:06:13 <RichardG> because I already set my donation and I still get 400s...
 527 2011-02-13 01:06:25 <sipa> and then leave the pool, and rejoin under another name/address
 528 2011-02-13 01:07:02 <sipa> if it gained you something
 529 2011-02-13 01:07:24 <RichardG> nevermind, I was using my old PC's worker account, which obviously failed
 530 2011-02-13 01:09:18 <molecular> sipa, ok, so the second abuse is like the pool switching strategy slush was (maybe) suffering from a week ago?
 531 2011-02-13 01:09:38 <sipa> not exactly the same
 532 2011-02-13 01:09:46 <molecular> sipa: what about p2p-bandwidth? don't we need to distribute a block description for every diff1-proof to all nodes?
 533 2011-02-13 01:10:03 <sipa> unfortunately, yes
 534 2011-02-13 01:10:10 <[Noodles]> suffering from?
 535 2011-02-13 01:10:13 <[Noodles]> was it?
 536 2011-02-13 01:10:16 <sipa> no
 537 2011-02-13 01:10:22 <molecular> sipa, so the bandwidth is O(n) :(
 538 2011-02-13 01:10:35 <sipa> molecular: there is an improvement
 539 2011-02-13 01:10:42 <molecular> I'd like to hear
 540 2011-02-13 01:10:52 <sipa> let miners decide for themselves which difficulty they mine at
 541 2011-02-13 01:11:04 <sipa> (before they start mining)
 542 2011-02-13 01:11:36 <sipa> and count a difficulty-N block as N difficulty-1 blocks
 543 2011-02-13 01:11:46 <molecular> ok, and on receiving-end, take that difficulty in account when calculating what I owe this guy
 544 2011-02-13 01:11:52 <sipa> indeed
 545 2011-02-13 01:11:57 ntosme2 has joined
 546 2011-02-13 01:12:01 <molecular> but then you need to put that "decided-on difficulty" in the block data
 547 2011-02-13 01:12:07 <sipa> yes
 548 2011-02-13 01:12:08 <molecular> cant use the block hash for that
 549 2011-02-13 01:12:13 <sipa> you can
 550 2011-02-13 01:12:16 <molecular> ok, cool
 551 2011-02-13 01:12:20 <molecular> this can work
 552 2011-02-13 01:12:25 <sipa> if you put it somehow encoded in the coinbase
 553 2011-02-13 01:12:30 <molecular> but it's still O(n)-ish ;|
 554 2011-02-13 01:12:34 <sipa> yup
 555 2011-02-13 01:12:46 <molecular> actually it's just fiddling with a constant
 556 2011-02-13 01:13:02 <molecular> it still can work quite well if pool doesn't get too large...
 557 2011-02-13 01:13:18 <molecular> maybe we can stuff a "layer in the middle" and make sort of a meta-pool of smaller pools
 558 2011-02-13 01:13:25 <RichardG> pentium dual core e5700, 4gb ram, 7 x64 - getting 1250-1375 khashes with cryptopp_asm32
 559 2011-02-13 01:13:36 <sipa> O(n^2) bandwidth through the whole network for N pool miners
 560 2011-02-13 01:13:49 <molecular> you're right
 561 2011-02-13 01:14:04 <molecular> was faultily taking the perspective of just "one node"
 562 2011-02-13 01:15:08 <molecular> individuals could put "trust" in some intermediaries that receive/redistribute to a sub-cluster of the nodes
 563 2011-02-13 01:15:21 <molecular> sipa, did you make calculations concerning the bandwidth?
 564 2011-02-13 01:15:41 <ntosme2> RichardG: I'm getting 2400 with 2 threads, cpuminer, c/kernel alg
 565 2011-02-13 01:15:48 <jgarzik> cpuminer version 0.7 released
 566 2011-02-13 01:15:54 <jgarzik> all pool users strongly urged to upgrade
 567 2011-02-13 01:16:06 <molecular> jgarzik, what did you do?
 568 2011-02-13 01:16:25 <jgarzik> molecular: persistent HTTP connections and DNS caching
 569 2011-02-13 01:16:45 <jgarzik> should lower slush's server usage, _and_ speed up 'getwork' turnaround time.
 570 2011-02-13 01:16:52 <jgarzik> win-win
 571 2011-02-13 01:17:08 <molecular> jgarzik, sounds good
 572 2011-02-13 01:17:24 <molecular> what happened to slush's push model?
 573 2011-02-13 01:17:26 * Diablo-D3 wonders why jgarzik fails at the internet.
 574 2011-02-13 01:17:37 * jgarzik wrote a push server last night
 575 2011-02-13 01:17:45 <jgarzik> hopefully that will become the official protocol
 576 2011-02-13 01:17:50 <RichardG> ntosme2: getting 1100-1200 on c
 577 2011-02-13 01:17:50 <jgarzik> but until then...
 578 2011-02-13 01:17:55 <RichardG> asm32 is best for me
 579 2011-02-13 01:18:13 <Diablo-D3> I hope it never becomes the official protocol
 580 2011-02-13 01:18:44 joe_1 has joined
 581 2011-02-13 01:18:51 <sipa> molecular: not really
 582 2011-02-13 01:18:59 <ntosme2> RichardG: asm32 was about 1.6% slower here
 583 2011-02-13 01:19:05 <molecular> sipa, well. I really like your idea
 584 2011-02-13 01:19:13 <sipa> it just took a lot of brainstorming with someone here who seems to have left
 585 2011-02-13 01:19:23 <sipa> and i fear i have no time for implementing it :)
 586 2011-02-13 01:19:28 <molecular> who was that?
 587 2011-02-13 01:19:44 <sipa> marioxcc i believe was his nick
 588 2011-02-13 01:20:26 <molecular> sound like a cc-coder ;) maybe he has the resources...
 589 2011-02-13 01:20:40 <Diablo-D3> huh
 590 2011-02-13 01:20:44 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 591 2011-02-13 01:20:46 <Diablo-D3> slush requires forced donations?
 592 2011-02-13 01:20:49 <molecular> I could definitely help, but am not into bitcoin-code very deeply
 593 2011-02-13 01:20:51 * Diablo-D3 turns his down to 2%
 594 2011-02-13 01:21:01 <molecular> Diablo-D3, interesting reaction
 595 2011-02-13 01:21:16 <sipa> and very understandable one
 596 2011-02-13 01:21:18 <molecular> yeah
 597 2011-02-13 01:21:20 bk128 has joined
 598 2011-02-13 01:21:20 <Diablo-D3> it was 6%.
 599 2011-02-13 01:21:29 <sipa> the moment it becomes forced, it's a payment, not a donation
 600 2011-02-13 01:21:38 <sipa> though i fully understand slush
 601 2011-02-13 01:22:07 <molecular> people say, slush's gone "commercial"... well, he says it's a reaction to the slashdotting and he's on vacation and he's doing it only temporarily
 602 2011-02-13 01:22:17 <sipa> uhu
 603 2011-02-13 01:22:27 <ntosme2> at 2% that's about $30/day
 604 2011-02-13 01:22:33 <[Noodles]> calling fees "required donations" is just silly
 605 2011-02-13 01:22:36 <sipa> i wonder what other solution he will come up with
 606 2011-02-13 01:22:38 <molecular> yeah, I don't think it's a bad move
 607 2011-02-13 01:22:47 <molecular> he's just not making enough to finance the bandwidth
 608 2011-02-13 01:23:07 <[Noodles]> that's another story, of course a server has to be paid for
 609 2011-02-13 01:23:24 <molecular> (read the link right to the donation <select/>)
 610 2011-02-13 01:23:31 <sipa> molecular: anyway, there are other problems as well, such as observability... essentially every node will be measuring the speed and "coor
 611 2011-02-13 01:23:44 <sipa> molecular: anyway, there are other problems as well, such as observability... essentially every node will be measuring the speed and "cooperability" of (at least some) other nodes
 612 2011-02-13 01:23:55 <sipa> with everyone having a different notion about it
 613 2011-02-13 01:24:16 <sipa> so i think it'll be a hell to debug, and if not, to have it gain trust
 614 2011-02-13 01:25:17 <sipa> anyway
 615 2011-02-13 01:25:20 * sipa needs sleep
 616 2011-02-13 01:25:44 molecular has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 617 2011-02-13 01:26:17 <joe_1> if slush were smart he wouldn't charge any fee, but he would take every 10th block for himself. that way, nobody would know.
 618 2011-02-13 01:26:38 <jgarzik> I think slush is doing a fantastic job
 619 2011-02-13 01:28:33 <RichardG> wait, stupid idea
 620 2011-02-13 01:28:42 * RichardG puts minerd on his old Athlon XP
 621 2011-02-13 01:34:15 <luke-jr> …why?
 622 2011-02-13 01:34:23 <luke-jr> that is *so* mining at a loss
 623 2011-02-13 01:34:58 * Mr_Coin runs minerd on his 386SX 16
 624 2011-02-13 01:35:04 <jgarzik> lol
 625 2011-02-13 01:35:07 <[Noodles]> like....folding at a loss?
 626 2011-02-13 01:35:44 * jgarzik wonders how many blocks/day could we get, if I opened a CPU-miner-only pool
 627 2011-02-13 01:36:07 pavelo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 628 2011-02-13 01:36:20 <noagendamarket> jgarzik do it man lol
 629 2011-02-13 01:36:37 <[Noodles]> i'd join, just for the fun
 630 2011-02-13 01:36:38 <noagendamarket> lest discriminate against gpu's for once :)
 631 2011-02-13 01:36:47 <jgarzik> open a pool for hardware built pre-year-2000
 632 2011-02-13 01:36:52 <noagendamarket> hahaha
 633 2011-02-13 01:36:58 <noagendamarket> atari 2600 pool
 634 2011-02-13 01:37:03 <noagendamarket> ftw
 635 2011-02-13 01:37:12 <jgarzik> I bet you could do that with a simulator :)
 636 2011-02-13 01:37:20 <noagendamarket> hey I bet I could
 637 2011-02-13 01:38:14 <jgarzik> seeing sha256 on TRS-80 Color Computer (BASIC language) would be... interesting
 638 2011-02-13 01:38:44 <RichardG> makes me remember of xelister
 639 2011-02-13 01:38:50 <Mr_Coin> i'm getting about 0.1 hash/sec
 640 2011-02-13 01:38:51 <RichardG> and his "CPU miners' fund"
 641 2011-02-13 01:39:05 <RichardG> i need to renew my membership in it...
 642 2011-02-13 01:39:13 <RichardG> got a new PC, unfortunately Intel IGP
 643 2011-02-13 01:40:48 molecular has joined
 644 2011-02-13 01:40:55 <jgarzik> tcatm: you need to merge cpuminer commit c0935a94899bc7261bc98b17a52d7c11b005fde4 into your oclminer.  calling curl_easy_init() in json_rpc_call() eliminates possibility of caching DNS and HTTP connections.
 645 2011-02-13 01:42:52 dissipate_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 646 2011-02-13 01:43:01 <donpdonp> lmao at Atari 2600 pool
 647 2011-02-13 01:44:30 <luke-jr> jgarzik: how would you validate whether it was a CPU only, or GPU?
 648 2011-02-13 01:44:47 <luke-jr> RichardG: unfortunately?
 649 2011-02-13 01:44:53 <jgarzik> luke-jr: a good question :)
 650 2011-02-13 01:45:04 <luke-jr> RichardG: that's basically ideal for mining-- just add a Radeon and pretend it isn't there ;)
 651 2011-02-13 01:45:09 <jgarzik> observed rate per HTTP connection is one
 652 2011-02-13 01:45:22 <luke-jr> jgarzik: keep in mind that my CPU is faster than some nvidia GPUs
 653 2011-02-13 01:46:05 <jgarzik> luke-jr: CPU == a single core?
 654 2011-02-13 01:46:09 <jgarzik> single thread?
 655 2011-02-13 01:46:14 <luke-jr> jgarzik: 5 threads
 656 2011-02-13 01:46:22 <jgarzik> that's 5 HTTP connections
 657 2011-02-13 01:46:33 <luke-jr> 4 cores, plus an extra to handle while the others are fetching more work
 658 2011-02-13 01:46:58 <luke-jr> I see.
 659 2011-02-13 01:47:09 <luke-jr> so a single HTTP connection beating 3 MH/s = GPU ?
 660 2011-02-13 01:47:16 <genjix> sup
 661 2011-02-13 01:48:59 <genjix> nokia has partnered with microsoft and is dropping symbian...
 662 2011-02-13 01:49:03 <genjix> what does this mean for Qt???
 663 2011-02-13 01:49:13 <genjix> ogodpleaseno
 664 2011-02-13 01:49:31 <luke-jr> genjix: joking?
 665 2011-02-13 01:49:35 <genjix> no
 666 2011-02-13 01:49:43 pavelo has joined
 667 2011-02-13 01:49:45 <noagendamarket> If you connect with under 5000 khash most likely you have a cpu ? lol
 668 2011-02-13 01:50:00 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: some nvidia GPUs are <5000
 669 2011-02-13 01:50:22 <genjix> http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/02/12/0028257/After-MS-Nokia-Pact-Many-Nokia-Workers-Walk-Out-In-Protest#comments
 670 2011-02-13 01:50:43 <noagendamarket> thats what i mean luke...limit the pool to a maximum khash rate
 671 2011-02-13 01:51:07 <noagendamarket> or something....
 672 2011-02-13 01:51:32 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: I'm saying why that can't work.
 673 2011-02-13 01:51:44 <jgarzik> <gribble> BCM|  CONF TRD|PPUSD                   100 @ $1.2550
 674 2011-02-13 01:51:47 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: if you want to keep out nvidia GPUs, you need to set the limit to like 2500 kH/s
 675 2011-02-13 01:51:48 <jgarzik> wow, the PayPal premium
 676 2011-02-13 01:51:51 <luke-jr> but then that keeps my CPU out too
 677 2011-02-13 01:51:56 <comboy> Diablo-D3: I'm curious what you think is wrong with the thing that jgarzik said he wrote, can you share?
 678 2011-02-13 01:52:08 <noagendamarket> luke maybe it a noob pool lol
 679 2011-02-13 01:53:02 <luke-jr> if you use simply max kH/s, it should be called "pool for those mining at a loss"
 680 2011-02-13 01:53:27 <genjix> microsoft is going to slaughter qt if they get their hands on it...
 681 2011-02-13 01:53:55 <ntosme2> by my calcs, an ATI 5970 will generate $17.26/day
 682 2011-02-13 01:54:27 <[Noodles]> i don't your "at a loss"-problem, people ar folding and seti at a loss all the time, for years and noone cares
 683 2011-02-13 01:54:40 <luke-jr> ntosme2: not CPUs
 684 2011-02-13 01:54:57 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: well, I guess idiots will always exist :P
 685 2011-02-13 01:55:05 <luke-jr> but AFAIK the folding stuff has a practical use?
 686 2011-02-13 01:55:13 <genjix> yes it does
 687 2011-02-13 01:55:13 <ntosme2> luke-jr: what's your point? that's a GPU
 688 2011-02-13 01:55:18 <genjix> so why does that make them idiots?
 689 2011-02-13 01:55:24 <genjix> they want to help people
 690 2011-02-13 01:55:31 <luke-jr> ntosme2: so we're talking about CPU-only pool
 691 2011-02-13 01:55:36 <luke-jr> genjix: mining at a loss helps nobody
 692 2011-02-13 01:55:37 <genjix> they are heroes if anything
 693 2011-02-13 01:55:40 <luke-jr> SETI helps nobody
 694 2011-02-13 01:55:41 jgarzik_web has joined
 695 2011-02-13 01:55:54 <[Noodles]> mining at a loss helps the network
 696 2011-02-13 01:55:59 <[Noodles]> it secures your coins#
 697 2011-02-13 01:56:02 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: oh?
 698 2011-02-13 01:56:03 <genjix> SETI is science
 699 2011-02-13 01:56:21 <luke-jr> SETI is a waste of time and CPU power, nothing more
 700 2011-02-13 01:56:23 <genjix> how long does a gpu take to generate a block?
 701 2011-02-13 01:56:29 <luke-jr> genjix: depends on the GPU
 702 2011-02-13 01:56:42 <genjix> that's unproductive to rubbish people's work
 703 2011-02-13 01:56:51 <genjix> im sure people call bitcoin the same.
 704 2011-02-13 01:57:09 <luke-jr> honestly, bitcoin's mining is a flaw.
 705 2011-02-13 01:57:16 <luke-jr> doesn't invalidate the whole system thankfully
 706 2011-02-13 01:57:44 <genjix> doesn't it annoy you when people rubbish tonal number system?
 707 2011-02-13 01:57:54 <genjix> that's the same with calling SETI a waste of time
 708 2011-02-13 01:58:09 <luke-jr> except that SETI has no potential benefits, IMO
 709 2011-02-13 01:58:15 <genjix> many talented scientists sacrifice their career because the believe in it.
 710 2011-02-13 01:58:46 <[Noodles]> it doesnt matter if people are mining at a loss, or in profit, important is, that mining is done
 711 2011-02-13 01:58:49 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: do you have substantive criticisms of a more network-efficient, constantly connected binary mining protocol?
 712 2011-02-13 01:58:55 <genjix> luke-jr: this is a movie about SETI, and you are the guys in suits (2 mins), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sds7hTlaNaM
 713 2011-02-13 01:59:12 <luke-jr> genjix: ok
 714 2011-02-13 01:59:17 <luke-jr> I don't use Flash.
 715 2011-02-13 01:59:27 <genjix> use html5 then
 716 2011-02-13 01:59:38 <luke-jr> YouTube dropped HTML5 support IIRC
 717 2011-02-13 01:59:39 <genjix> http://www.youtube.com/html5
 718 2011-02-13 01:59:55 <echelon> i would mine if the client had better frequency scaling
 719 2011-02-13 01:59:59 <Mr_Coin> they did not drop html5 support
 720 2011-02-13 02:00:17 <luke-jr> cool
 721 2011-02-13 02:01:07 <luke-jr> but it's fiction
 722 2011-02-13 02:01:13 <luke-jr> gotta remember that
 723 2011-02-13 02:01:20 <echelon> youtube limits the number of html5-supported videos because they haven't figured out a way to force ads on them
 724 2011-02-13 02:01:47 <genjix> all i can say is watch the video
 725 2011-02-13 02:01:58 <luke-jr> FICTION.
 726 2011-02-13 02:02:23 <Mr_Coin> i guess that's not the point
 727 2011-02-13 02:02:45 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 728 2011-02-13 02:03:38 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
 729 2011-02-13 02:04:04 <genjix> the film was written by Carl Sagan... one of the best astronomers ever. designed the pioneer plaque, mars landings, Cosmos .etc
 730 2011-02-13 02:04:30 <genjix> you remind me of people who say Linux will never work, or the internet, or aeroplanes, ...
 731 2011-02-13 02:04:56 <afed> heh
 732 2011-02-13 02:04:57 <Mr_Coin> yeah
 733 2011-02-13 02:05:11 <luke-jr> genjix: correct me if I'm wrong, but SETI has no purpose other than finding extraterrertials, right?
 734 2011-02-13 02:05:33 <genjix> so why are you here participating in a virtual currency controlled by the people, and promoting a base 16 number system from the 1900's?
 735 2011-02-13 02:05:47 <luke-jr> and since I am fairly confident there are no extraterrestial physical creatures, it is therefore a complete waste of time/power
 736 2011-02-13 02:05:54 <Mr_Coin> lol
 737 2011-02-13 02:06:02 <Kiba> in other words, we are alone
 738 2011-02-13 02:06:06 <luke-jr> genjix: Tonal is from the 1800s
 739 2011-02-13 02:06:17 <Mr_Coin> it is highly unlikely that we are alone
 740 2011-02-13 02:06:38 <genjix> 100 billion galaxies each with 100 billion stars
 741 2011-02-13 02:06:44 <Mr_Coin> yeah
 742 2011-02-13 02:07:00 <luke-jr> then why did it just so happen that God chose Earth and became man?
 743 2011-02-13 02:07:15 <Kiba> luke-jr: but we don't believe in god!
 744 2011-02-13 02:07:18 <Mr_Coin> there is no god, except in your head maybe
 745 2011-02-13 02:07:21 <luke-jr> Kiba: that's YOUR problem
 746 2011-02-13 02:07:31 <Kiba> :P
 747 2011-02-13 02:07:37 <luke-jr> see, this nonsense presumes the denial of God
 748 2011-02-13 02:07:49 <Mr_Coin> it has nothing to do with god actually
 749 2011-02-13 02:08:09 <Mr_Coin> it is just math
 750 2011-02-13 02:09:12 <[Noodles]> however its also highly unlikely that some et.creatures try to contact us, even if, it would take hubndreds or thousands of years to even send a message
 751 2011-02-13 02:09:32 <Mr_Coin> [Noodles], true, chances for that to happen are very small
 752 2011-02-13 02:09:54 <[Noodles]> so, imo SETI is a waste of time and energy, but who am i to judge people that do it
 753 2011-02-13 02:10:23 <genjix> better than shooting brown people
 754 2011-02-13 02:10:29 <[Noodles]> lol
 755 2011-02-13 02:10:30 <Mr_Coin> but maybe they haven't even been trying to contact us, but send messages for other reasons that we might be able to receive
 756 2011-02-13 02:10:48 <[Noodles]> maybe god exists
 757 2011-02-13 02:11:03 <Mr_Coin> well that really is HIGHLY unlikely
 758 2011-02-13 02:11:08 <[Noodles]> i dont think so, but i might be wrong
 759 2011-02-13 02:11:52 <Mr_Coin> but there is certain people that need something like a "god"
 760 2011-02-13 02:12:09 <[Noodles]> sure, let them be
 761 2011-02-13 02:12:13 <luke-jr> God exists, no matter the reason you might have to deny Him
 762 2011-02-13 02:12:23 <Mr_Coin> like luke-jr
 763 2011-02-13 02:12:29 <Mr_Coin> and i don't care
 764 2011-02-13 02:12:38 <[Noodles]> its not reasons i have to deny, it's reasons i don't have to believe
 765 2011-02-13 02:12:47 <Mr_Coin> but i don't argue with those people either, as it is useless
 766 2011-02-13 02:12:56 <luke-jr> Mr_Coin: need or not, I believe in God because His existence is solidly proven.
 767 2011-02-13 02:13:09 <[Noodles]> by what?
 768 2011-02-13 02:13:17 <luke-jr> logic, at least
 769 2011-02-13 02:13:21 <luke-jr> probably other fields of science, too
 770 2011-02-13 02:13:23 <Mr_Coin> luke-jr, you are free to believe anything, but nothing has been proven
 771 2011-02-13 02:13:48 <[Noodles]> show me evidence
 772 2011-02-13 02:13:52 <Mr_Coin> haha, yeah
 773 2011-02-13 02:13:55 <joe_1> bitcoin to western union?
 774 2011-02-13 02:13:57 <[Noodles]> havent seen any in my lifetime
 775 2011-02-13 02:13:58 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: you can find various proofs with Google
 776 2011-02-13 02:14:12 <[Noodles]> i can find all kinds of stuff with google
 777 2011-02-13 02:14:17 <Mr_Coin> well, as i said, it is useless to argue about that crap
 778 2011-02-13 02:14:17 <genjix> historians discovered a forum post by jesus
 779 2011-02-13 02:14:22 <[Noodles]> dont have to believe it
 780 2011-02-13 02:14:25 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: study logic then and prove it yourself
 781 2011-02-13 02:14:31 <[Noodles]> i did
 782 2011-02-13 02:14:36 <[Noodles]> that's why i dont believe
 783 2011-02-13 02:14:50 <[Noodles]> or DO believe that "he" doesnt exist
 784 2011-02-13 02:14:53 <luke-jr> obviously not, since what you just said is completely illogical
 785 2011-02-13 02:14:59 <Mr_Coin> lol
 786 2011-02-13 02:15:22 <luke-jr> if you proved His existence to yourself, it makes no sense to believe He doesn't exist.
 787 2011-02-13 02:15:49 <[Noodles]> i did study logic, i didnt prove his existence
 788 2011-02-13 02:16:03 <Mr_Coin> you obviously need some kind of god. but that does not mean a "god" exists
 789 2011-02-13 02:16:28 <[Noodles]> believe whatever you want, i wont blame you
 790 2011-02-13 02:16:38 <Mr_Coin> yeah
 791 2011-02-13 02:16:40 <genjix> if god screams in a forest, ...
 792 2011-02-13 02:16:46 <[Noodles]> but dont say "its proven" when its not
 793 2011-02-13 02:16:47 <genjix> QED
 794 2011-02-13 02:16:59 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: it is proven.
 795 2011-02-13 02:17:05 <[Noodles]> by what?
 796 2011-02-13 02:17:11 <luke-jr> your ignorance, willful or not, is irrelevant to that fact
 797 2011-02-13 02:17:12 <genjix> mathematics
 798 2011-02-13 02:17:27 <[Noodles]> theres so many relkigions with so many gods, which one is the proven one?
 799 2011-02-13 02:17:28 <genjix> there is a proof for the decibels of gods voice
 800 2011-02-13 02:17:32 <luke-jr> genjix: I would be interested in a mathematical proof.
 801 2011-02-13 02:17:35 <Mr_Coin> lol, even the most religious people usually do not claim that god's existence has been proven
 802 2011-02-13 02:17:49 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: I was referring merely to His existence. Not any attributes or such
 803 2011-02-13 02:18:23 <luke-jr> while various attributes *can* be proven, their proofs tend to be more complicated.
 804 2011-02-13 02:18:35 <noagendamarket> God gave me a dick so he wants me to use it.
 805 2011-02-13 02:18:41 <noagendamarket> lol
 806 2011-02-13 02:18:56 <Mr_Coin> show us proof about its existence or stop claiming that is has been proven
 807 2011-02-13 02:18:56 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: correct, to be fruitful and multiply.
 808 2011-02-13 02:18:58 <Mr_Coin> EOD
 809 2011-02-13 02:19:02 <noagendamarket> He also wants me to smoke copious amounts of drugs
 810 2011-02-13 02:19:08 <luke-jr> Mr_Coin: I won't Google for you.
 811 2011-02-13 02:19:20 <noagendamarket> so that I see god while hallucinating
 812 2011-02-13 02:19:22 <Mr_Coin> luke-jr, i don't want you to google
 813 2011-02-13 02:19:23 <[Noodles]> goggle lies
 814 2011-02-13 02:19:23 <noagendamarket> lol
 815 2011-02-13 02:19:29 <[Noodles]> google too
 816 2011-02-13 02:19:50 <luke-jr> Google can find verifiable logical proofs of God's existence.
 817 2011-02-13 02:19:54 <[Noodles]> google also says, ET has already been here!!
 818 2011-02-13 02:19:57 <Mr_Coin> either show us some proof or stop claiming such a crap
 819 2011-02-13 02:20:00 <[Noodles]> proven fact
 820 2011-02-13 02:20:04 <[Noodles]> google it
 821 2011-02-13 02:20:06 <genjix> proof: the face of jesus was discovered smiling in the wrinkles of a woman's back
 822 2011-02-13 02:20:13 <Mr_Coin> hehe true, [Noodles]
 823 2011-02-13 02:20:53 <genjix> [Noodles]: i think you'll find definitive proof in the forum posts of jesus
 824 2011-02-13 02:21:07 <[Noodles]> he posted on our forum?
 825 2011-02-13 02:21:09 <genjix> and it's not fake because the words are beyond anything a mortal could type
 826 2011-02-13 02:21:09 <[Noodles]> cool
 827 2011-02-13 02:21:24 <genjix> yeah he bitcoin was blessed
 828 2011-02-13 02:21:48 <genjix> and for our efforts he would send us christians as a reward
 829 2011-02-13 02:22:05 <genjix> and boys
 830 2011-02-13 02:22:32 <Mr_Coin> haha
 831 2011-02-13 02:23:20 <genjix> proof: if god screams in a forest, ...
 832 2011-02-13 02:23:22 <genjix> QED
 833 2011-02-13 02:23:32 <genjix> christians: 2 atheists: 0
 834 2011-02-13 02:23:39 <Mr_Coin> ;)
 835 2011-02-13 02:25:27 Lachesis has joined
 836 2011-02-13 02:25:31 Lachesis has quit (Changing host)
 837 2011-02-13 02:25:31 Lachesis has joined
 838 2011-02-13 02:25:32 <genjix> wouldn't it be lovely if instead of scumbag politicians and lawyers, we had respectable priests and honest popes serving the law
 839 2011-02-13 02:25:56 <newsham> hilarity
 840 2011-02-13 02:26:04 <noagendamarket> heh
 841 2011-02-13 02:26:16 <noagendamarket> it was called the spanish inquisition
 842 2011-02-13 02:26:19 <ntosme2> yes, but no
 843 2011-02-13 02:26:29 <newsham> six of one half a dozen of another
 844 2011-02-13 02:28:39 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3402.0
 845 2011-02-13 02:28:45 <genjix> any suggestions on this?
 846 2011-02-13 02:28:55 <Kiba> the problem is not lawyers but judges
 847 2011-02-13 02:29:08 <genjix> ahh christians... the persecuted minority.
 848 2011-02-13 02:29:18 <noagendamarket> the cake is a lie
 849 2011-02-13 02:29:35 <noagendamarket> do you believe in dog ?
 850 2011-02-13 02:30:13 <genjix> yes, i believe brother
 851 2011-02-13 02:30:20 <genjix> please show me the way
 852 2011-02-13 02:30:34 dissipate_ has joined
 853 2011-02-13 02:30:52 <genjix> take me to my virgins and pet dinosaurs
 854 2011-02-13 02:31:12 <genjix> actually make that sluts... virgins are bad at sex
 855 2011-02-13 02:31:17 <dissipate_> genjix, take me to bitcoin heaven
 856 2011-02-13 02:31:32 <noagendamarket> hehe
 857 2011-02-13 02:32:01 <genjix> brother noagendamarket will take us after we give him a fee
 858 2011-02-13 02:32:12 Lube has joined
 859 2011-02-13 02:32:23 Lube has quit (Client Quit)
 860 2011-02-13 02:32:48 <newsham> /topic [16:16] < genjix> ahh christians... the persecuted minority.
 861 2011-02-13 02:32:50 <genjix> we only have to drink the magic potions
 862 2011-02-13 02:33:53 <newsham> body and blood of christ
 863 2011-02-13 02:34:04 <newsham> christiam zombie vampires
 864 2011-02-13 02:38:00 <dissipate_> has anyone noticed how unfriendly the bitcoin client is to casual users who run bitcoin for the first time who want to mine?
 865 2011-02-13 02:38:14 <afed> no
 866 2011-02-13 02:38:26 <genjix> dissipate_: they're not meant to mine.
 867 2011-02-13 02:38:56 <genjix> afed: is your nick related to the website?
 868 2011-02-13 02:39:06 <genjix> afed: http://www.afed.org.uk/
 869 2011-02-13 02:39:14 <dissipate_> the client doesn't tell them how long it will take them to produce a block, or give any links to boost hashing.
 870 2011-02-13 02:39:26 <afed> genjix: this is my official web site: http://www.afedonline.org/en/
 871 2011-02-13 02:39:30 <genjix> they're not supposed to.
 872 2011-02-13 02:39:32 <dissipate_> genjix, then why put mining in the client at all??
 873 2011-02-13 02:39:45 <genjix> dissipate_: it will be taken out soon.
 874 2011-02-13 02:39:52 <genjix> (well kind of)
 875 2011-02-13 02:40:24 <dissipate_> genjix, what are they going to do?
 876 2011-02-13 02:40:25 <genjix> afed: kk so a mixup :) you from dubai?
 877 2011-02-13 02:40:32 <dissipate_> i mean personally, i don't plan on mining, just sayin'
 878 2011-02-13 02:40:42 <genjix> dissipate_: well gpu miners are the thing now
 879 2011-02-13 02:40:54 <afed> genjix: i'm not from dubai, and that web site actually has nothing to do with me either, but i like it somehow
 880 2011-02-13 02:41:12 <genjix> ic
 881 2011-02-13 02:41:28 <dissipate_> genjix, i know that. that's my point. :)  Bob downloads Bitcoin, Bob rubs his grubby hands together, tries to mine, gets nothing, gets frustrated, quits, Bob hates Bitcoin.
 882 2011-02-13 02:41:32 <afed> genjix: i joined a channel once a long time ago where they were in the habit of calling each other "feds" as a lighthearted insult
 883 2011-02-13 02:41:42 <afed> genjix: now i am "a fed"
 884 2011-02-13 02:41:52 <genjix> kk
 885 2011-02-13 02:42:10 <dissipate_> afed, if that's they case, should have used an underscore: "a_fed"
 886 2011-02-13 02:42:29 <afed> well i don't like underscores
 887 2011-02-13 02:43:05 <dissipate_> how about a dash?
 888 2011-02-13 02:43:06 <dissipate_> a-fed
 889 2011-02-13 02:43:18 <afed> i am tired of this conversation
 890 2011-02-13 02:45:15 <dissipate_> afed, actually your screen name reminds me of 'aphid' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphid
 891 2011-02-13 02:45:35 <afed> those are cool
 892 2011-02-13 02:45:53 <dissipate_> if you are a fed are we all busted?
 893 2011-02-13 02:46:03 <dissipate_> warrants will be served in the morning folks!
 894 2011-02-13 02:46:22 <afed> have you done anything illegal?
 895 2011-02-13 02:50:43 <dissipate_> yep
 896 2011-02-13 02:53:22 <afed> yes, i know you have
 897 2011-02-13 02:53:26 <afed> i've seen logs of you
 898 2011-02-13 02:53:30 <afed> threatening the president
 899 2011-02-13 02:53:34 <afed> downloading illegal pornography
 900 2011-02-13 02:53:38 <afed> taking the lord's name in vain
 901 2011-02-13 02:53:59 <afed> involved with an illegal cryptocurrency gambling scheme to destabilize the US economy
 902 2011-02-13 02:54:00 <lfm> wait a min
 903 2011-02-13 02:54:03 RichardG has joined
 904 2011-02-13 02:54:05 <afed> i imagine the penalty will be quite severe
 905 2011-02-13 02:54:13 <lfm> swearing is illegal?
 906 2011-02-13 02:54:29 <afed> they'll probably put you in a prison within a prison
 907 2011-02-13 02:54:36 <genjix> haha
 908 2011-02-13 02:54:40 <Diablo-D3> but arent all prisons within a prison?
 909 2011-02-13 02:54:47 <Diablo-D3> the prison for your mind is in a prison
 910 2011-02-13 02:54:49 <afed> inside yet another prison
 911 2011-02-13 02:54:51 <genjix> made me chuckle
 912 2011-02-13 02:54:57 <genjix> like machowska dolls
 913 2011-02-13 02:55:14 <afed> possession of illegal machowska dolls
 914 2011-02-13 02:55:19 <afed> with illegal drugs hidden inside
 915 2011-02-13 02:55:27 <genjix> matryoshka dolls
 916 2011-02-13 02:55:50 <genjix> a prison inside a matryoshka doll XD
 917 2011-02-13 02:55:58 <afed> inside another prison
 918 2011-02-13 02:56:59 <genjix> welcome to the panopticon
 919 2011-02-13 02:57:15 <dissipate_> aren't 'countries' prisons? :D
 920 2011-02-13 02:57:33 <RichardG> quick help needed
 921 2011-02-13 02:57:38 <RichardG> unable to load blkindex.dat
 922 2011-02-13 02:57:43 <RichardG> corrupted due to bsod?
 923 2011-02-13 02:57:44 <genjix> delete it
 924 2011-02-13 02:57:51 <RichardG> ok
 925 2011-02-13 02:57:58 <genjix> (move it)
 926 2011-02-13 02:58:09 <genjix> in case im wrong :p but you should only need wallet.dat
 927 2011-02-13 02:58:11 <RichardG> works thanks
 928 2011-02-13 02:58:19 <dissipate_> you need to delete wallet.dat too
 929 2011-02-13 02:58:31 <dissipate_> so that it can be regenerated
 930 2011-02-13 02:58:37 <genjix> and send wallet.dat to genjix
 931 2011-02-13 02:58:38 <RichardG> dissipate_: I'm not a noob
 932 2011-02-13 02:58:44 <RichardG> lol
 933 2011-02-13 02:59:24 <dissipate_> btw, looks like the bitcoin faucet is a scam
 934 2011-02-13 02:59:45 <genjix> its not
 935 2011-02-13 02:59:47 <RichardG> LOL
 936 2011-02-13 02:59:49 <dissipate_> it said it sent me bitcoins and i have received nothing
 937 2011-02-13 03:00:01 <genjix> patience padawan
 938 2011-02-13 03:00:27 <RichardG> someone should make a kind of artificial intelligence
 939 2011-02-13 03:00:27 <dissipate_> genjix, how long does it take??
 940 2011-02-13 03:00:37 <RichardG> where when someone accuses the faucet of scam
 941 2011-02-13 03:00:51 <RichardG> it explains about block downloading, etc.
 942 2011-02-13 03:01:07 <dissipate_> RichardG, block downloading?
 943 2011-02-13 03:01:15 <dissipate_> RichardG, txs are transmitted right away
 944 2011-02-13 03:01:24 <dissipate_> i have not received a tx
 945 2011-02-13 03:01:41 <RichardG> dissipate_: in order to receive any bitcoins you need to download all ,,bc,blocks
 946 2011-02-13 03:01:44 <gribble> 107761
 947 2011-02-13 03:01:46 <RichardG> ,,bc,blocks
 948 2011-02-13 03:01:46 <gribble> 107761
 949 2011-02-13 03:01:47 <genjix> what would faucet scam you out of?
 950 2011-02-13 03:02:00 <dissipate_> RichardG, i already have
 951 2011-02-13 03:02:06 <genjix> your time?
 952 2011-02-13 03:02:13 <dissipate_> genjix, it lied. said it sent coins, i got nothing
 953 2011-02-13 03:02:13 <RichardG> then wait for the transaction
 954 2011-02-13 03:02:24 <dissipate_> genjix, probably a scam to sell ads
 955 2011-02-13 03:02:49 <genjix> its not a scam
 956 2011-02-13 03:03:00 <genjix> its run by the lead maintainer of bitcoin
 957 2011-02-13 03:03:13 <dissipate_> well he went rogue, like sarah palin
 958 2011-02-13 03:03:22 <dissipate_> and now he be scammin' for ad revenue
 959 2011-02-13 03:05:35 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 960 2011-02-13 03:05:54 <dissipate_> genjix, i am not lying, the bitcoin faucet sent me nothing.
 961 2011-02-13 03:06:14 <genjix> read the getting started guide
 962 2011-02-13 03:06:25 <afed> in other words you typed your stupid address wrong
 963 2011-02-13 03:06:46 <RichardG> hm
 964 2011-02-13 03:06:54 <RichardG> I heard poclbm supports Intel GPUs, right?
 965 2011-02-13 03:07:14 <afed> no such thing
 966 2011-02-13 03:07:30 <dissipate_> afed, could be.
 967 2011-02-13 03:07:44 <afed> ok well if he somehow obtained larrabee hardware he's the first i've heard of
 968 2011-02-13 03:08:06 <lfm> no some sort of 3000
 969 2011-02-13 03:08:30 kermit has joined
 970 2011-02-13 03:08:34 <afed> yeah those don't do anything
 971 2011-02-13 03:09:18 <lfm> Model ↓ 	Mhash/s ↓ 	Mhash/W ↓ 	W ↓ 	Clock ↓ 	SP ↓ 	SDK ↓ 	Miner ↓
 972 2011-02-13 03:09:20 <lfm> HD 2000 	0.65 					2.2 	poclbm 2011-01-25
 973 2011-02-13 03:09:21 <lfm> from the wiki
 974 2011-02-13 03:09:34 <afed> 0.65
 975 2011-02-13 03:09:46 sshc has joined
 976 2011-02-13 03:09:53 <lfm> 0.65 Mhash! thats almost as good as a p4
 977 2011-02-13 03:10:16 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 978 2011-02-13 03:10:33 <dissipate_> nevermind, faucet isn't a scam, i just got my BTC
 979 2011-02-13 03:10:34 <lfm> its maybe just useing the cpu
 980 2011-02-13 03:10:42 RichardG has joined
 981 2011-02-13 03:10:43 <afed> lfm: ya think
 982 2011-02-13 03:10:43 <dissipate_> i wonder why it took so long for the tx to come in
 983 2011-02-13 03:11:04 <afed> dissipate_: it takes until a client that accepted the tx finds a block
 984 2011-02-13 03:11:06 <Kiba> you're new and you didn't download all the blocks yet
 985 2011-02-13 03:11:52 <lfm> sometimes tx get lost for a while and they only retry after about 30 min
 986 2011-02-13 03:12:40 <lfm> most txn spread thru the whole net in seconds
 987 2011-02-13 03:12:49 <dissipate_> afed, i thought all txs were transmitted to all clients
 988 2011-02-13 03:12:49 <dissipate_> Kiba, nope, i had all the blocks
 989 2011-02-13 03:12:54 <RichardG> as Intel seems to have no documentation on that
 990 2011-02-13 03:13:00 <RichardG> will OpenCL work in a G41 chipset's IGP
 991 2011-02-13 03:13:20 <afed> yej
 992 2011-02-13 03:14:02 <RichardG> what would I require then
 993 2011-02-13 03:14:08 <RichardG> Intel's SDK is for the CPU OpenCL
 994 2011-02-13 03:14:30 <afed> look at the numbers again
 995 2011-02-13 03:14:36 <afed> it's not worth your electricity to run that
 996 2011-02-13 03:15:31 <RichardG> I know, I just want to try it out
 997 2011-02-13 03:16:00 <afed> i meant yes to dissipate_
 998 2011-02-13 03:16:08 <afed> i wasn't saying yes opencl will work on that igp
 999 2011-02-13 03:16:15 <RichardG> facepalm
1000 2011-02-13 03:16:19 <afed> sorry
1001 2011-02-13 03:16:24 <lfm> http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-opencl-sdk/
1002 2011-02-13 03:16:31 <afed> the intel video chips don't do a lot of processing
1003 2011-02-13 03:16:36 <afed> most of it is done by their cpu
1004 2011-02-13 03:16:47 <afed> so running opencl with that intel sdk is the optimal use of that hardware
1005 2011-02-13 03:16:55 <dissipate_> lfm, it took minutes rather than seconds for me to get a txn
1006 2011-02-13 03:17:04 <nanotube> dissipate_: maybe it sends wit ha delay now
1007 2011-02-13 03:17:10 <lfm> sometimes tx get lost for a while and they only retry after about 30 min
1008 2011-02-13 03:17:18 <dissipate_> is it just me or are blocks being generated faster than 6 per hour??
1009 2011-02-13 03:17:29 <lfm> that Intel OpenCL SDK is for CPUs
1010 2011-02-13 03:17:50 <lfm> vista /win 7 only
1011 2011-02-13 03:18:01 <RichardG> that's weird as I swear I saw a hardware comparison entry
1012 2011-02-13 03:18:04 <RichardG> for an intel IGP
1013 2011-02-13 03:18:16 <RichardG> with poclbm
1014 2011-02-13 03:18:19 <andrew12> dissipate_: i don't understand how the faucet could be a scam if it's free
1015 2011-02-13 03:18:28 <lfm> RichardG: ya the performance was like it was doing all the work on a cpu
1016 2011-02-13 03:18:30 <dissipate_> andrew12, advertising
1017 2011-02-13 03:18:41 <afed> facepalm
1018 2011-02-13 03:18:42 <andrew12> ah
1019 2011-02-13 03:18:56 <dissipate_> unless i'm off my rocker, blocks are coming in faster than 6 per hour
1020 2011-02-13 03:19:02 <nevezen> intel igp still not dedicated discreet enough?
1021 2011-02-13 03:19:07 <afed> ;;bc,stats
1022 2011-02-13 03:19:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107764 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1099 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33616.68866085
1023 2011-02-13 03:19:18 <ntosme2> Is there advertising? I have adblock enabled and didn't notice
1024 2011-02-13 03:19:27 <afed> dissipate_: that is the reason the difficulty is going up so far
1025 2011-02-13 03:19:33 <afed> dissipate_: people keep adding capacity
1026 2011-02-13 03:19:53 <nevezen> more and more people running gpu miners :)
1027 2011-02-13 03:19:59 <afed> dissipate_: perhaps strategically, waiting until just after the difficulty goes up to bring GPUs up
1028 2011-02-13 03:20:09 <afed> to keep it from going up higher
1029 2011-02-13 03:20:13 <dissipate_> afed, that's great news. hopefully it will be ramped up so much no government could hope to overtake the system (in any reasonable amount of time).
1030 2011-02-13 03:20:58 <RichardG> as soon as I fix my current issues with this computer i'm thinking on buying a geforce for it
1031 2011-02-13 03:21:00 <afed> my face is starting to get palmprints
1032 2011-02-13 03:21:04 <RichardG> unsure which one will be the cheapest
1033 2011-02-13 03:21:13 <RichardG> last year it was the 8xxx series
1034 2011-02-13 03:21:16 <RichardG> namely 8400
1035 2011-02-13 03:21:30 <lfm> The Intel® OpenCL SDK contains optimizations that require the Intel® Streaming SIMD Extensions 4.1 (Intel® SSE 4.1) instruction set
1036 2011-02-13 03:22:17 <RichardG> my cpu has up to ssse3 (if you cant spell it, say it as supplemental sse3) sorry
1037 2011-02-13 03:23:27 <Mr_Coin> a geforce 8400 is rather useless for mining
1038 2011-02-13 03:23:40 <RichardG> let me check the cheapest gpu i can find
1039 2011-02-13 03:23:57 <Mr_Coin> it is so slow, it is just not worth it
1040 2011-02-13 03:23:57 <afed> 5870 is probably optimal
1041 2011-02-13 03:24:03 <lfm> Mr_Coin: ya, I know its not much different from a cpu
1042 2011-02-13 03:24:10 <afed> 5970 being expensive to obtain
1043 2011-02-13 03:24:15 <Mr_Coin> also any amd graphics card is better suited than those nvidia cards
1044 2011-02-13 03:24:19 <andrew12> dissipate_: that's what usually happens when there's a large difficulty increase.
1045 2011-02-13 03:24:29 <andrew12> er, when there's going to be..
1046 2011-02-13 03:24:32 <Lachesis> anyone done dual or quad GPUs with the 5870?
1047 2011-02-13 03:24:33 <Mr_Coin> even the cheapest radeon hd 4350 is faster than those geforces
1048 2011-02-13 03:24:34 <RichardG> point of view geforce 210?
1049 2011-02-13 03:24:41 <RichardG> 512mb gddr3
1050 2011-02-13 03:24:42 <andrew12> re: blocks are coming in faster than 6 per hour
1051 2011-02-13 03:24:47 <afed> Lachesis: i have two machines with dual 5870s
1052 2011-02-13 03:25:00 <Mr_Coin> RichardG, do not buy nvidia if you want to use it for mining
1053 2011-02-13 03:25:04 <Lachesis> afed, which mobo did u use?
1054 2011-02-13 03:25:18 <afed> Lachesis: some $90 asus board
1055 2011-02-13 03:25:27 <Lachesis> kk
1056 2011-02-13 03:25:27 <nevezen> 8400 may be useless but 8800 still crunches reasonable amounts :)
1057 2011-02-13 03:25:38 <RichardG> Mr_Coin: no unless you want me to use a sapphire 4550
1058 2011-02-13 03:25:41 <afed> doesn't matter as long as it has the slots you need, basically
1059 2011-02-13 03:25:52 <Mr_Coin> nevezen, even a 8800 is not a good choice, it consumes way too much power
1060 2011-02-13 03:26:17 <Lachesis> afed, amd or intel chipset?
1061 2011-02-13 03:26:22 <afed> amd
1062 2011-02-13 03:26:22 <nevezen> yep. but it's still better than any quad core cpu miner
1063 2011-02-13 03:26:45 <afed> used a $50 amd cpu
1064 2011-02-13 03:26:46 <Mr_Coin> RichardG, just have a look at the wiki page with the graphics card mining comparison, nvidia cards suck at integer caluclations
1065 2011-02-13 03:26:56 ZenMondo has joined
1066 2011-02-13 03:27:07 <Mr_Coin> for the same money you get about 4 times the performance when buying AMD
1067 2011-02-13 03:27:39 <afed> AMD has cheaper bottom end chips
1068 2011-02-13 03:27:40 <RichardG> Mr_Coin: I can't find ATIs as cheap as the nvidias i'm finding
1069 2011-02-13 03:27:43 <afed> you really just need something to run the OS
1070 2011-02-13 03:27:52 <RichardG> do you really want me to mine using a hd 4350
1071 2011-02-13 03:27:55 <afed> for the CPU i mean
1072 2011-02-13 03:27:58 <nevezen> I just get the feeling that people rushing out to buy an 5870 just to mine will be disappointed with the lousy return of bitcoins..
1073 2011-02-13 03:28:13 <afed> nevezen: the return is lower but it's still the best you can do just now
1074 2011-02-13 03:28:17 <Mr_Coin> RichardG, a HD 4350 is slow, but still much faster than a geforce 8600 or something
1075 2011-02-13 03:28:37 <nevezen> yes, but the difficulty factor increases still.
1076 2011-02-13 03:28:44 <afed> nevezen: it really generates about the same USD value
1077 2011-02-13 03:28:47 <RichardG> i'm going to check that comparison page
1078 2011-02-13 03:28:49 <RichardG> if the wiki loads
1079 2011-02-13 03:29:01 <RichardG> here we are
1080 2011-02-13 03:29:20 <nevezen> It's like a goldl rush, imo
1081 2011-02-13 03:29:24 <Mr_Coin> and if you pay for your electricity you don't want to buy nvidia
1082 2011-02-13 03:29:30 <ntosme2> my 8600 is getting 6.2 Mhash/s vs 6.9 for an HD4350
1083 2011-02-13 03:29:41 <nevezen> sooner or later, the difficulty will get to the point that mining isn't work much anymore
1084 2011-02-13 03:29:52 <Mr_Coin> i've got 7500 khashes/s on a hd 4350
1085 2011-02-13 03:30:08 * nevezen gets 25Mh/s on his 8800GT
1086 2011-02-13 03:30:11 <afed> yeah i'd turn that off
1087 2011-02-13 03:30:22 <nevezen> woth*
1088 2011-02-13 03:30:22 <afed> a phenom x6 will get you 8500 khashes
1089 2011-02-13 03:30:22 <Mr_Coin> and about 67000 on a cheap hd 5570
1090 2011-02-13 03:30:24 <nevezen> worth*
1091 2011-02-13 03:30:26 <phantomcircuit> How would I go about making an anonymous transaction ?
1092 2011-02-13 03:30:46 <RichardG> horrible site i'm looking for a gpu on
1093 2011-02-13 03:30:58 <RichardG> i get pages and pages of fx5500s, 8400s and 4550s
1094 2011-02-13 03:30:58 <Lachesis> do you need a PCI-E 16x slot
1095 2011-02-13 03:31:00 <Lachesis> or will 8x work?
1096 2011-02-13 03:31:10 <Mr_Coin> 8x is just fine
1097 2011-02-13 03:31:11 <phantomcircuit> i've read that using an intermediary account is one way of doing so, but an account with a single transaction doesn't seem to add much anonymity to me...
1098 2011-02-13 03:31:28 <dissipate_> i have a question. if difficulty increases only occur every so many blocks, isn't it possible for the overall block production rate to be above 6 blocks per hour?
1099 2011-02-13 03:31:40 <dissipate_> therefore, the 21 million bitcoins could be mined before the expected date
1100 2011-02-13 03:31:43 <RichardG> found a 5450, 11 mhashes
1101 2011-02-13 03:31:53 <lfm> power costs vary a lot from country to country so not all the miners quit at the same difficulty
1102 2011-02-13 03:31:56 <RichardG> oh finally
1103 2011-02-13 03:32:06 <RichardG> found some nvidias
1104 2011-02-13 03:32:10 <RichardG> let me compare them to nearby atis
1105 2011-02-13 03:32:31 <RichardG> wow, they're slower than the atis
1106 2011-02-13 03:32:35 <RichardG> way slower.
1107 2011-02-13 03:32:43 <Mr_Coin> yes, that's what i have been saying
1108 2011-02-13 03:32:49 <RichardG> a 210 is almost half of a 4350
1109 2011-02-13 03:32:50 <lfm> richard also look at the watts
1110 2011-02-13 03:32:56 <Mr_Coin> yeah, they suck
1111 2011-02-13 03:33:03 <RichardG> on budget cuts, will a 5450 do?
1112 2011-02-13 03:33:04 <Mr_Coin> and also consume a lot of electricity
1113 2011-02-13 03:33:05 <RichardG> 11.99 mhashes
1114 2011-02-13 03:33:12 <RichardG> compared to 3.38 of the 210
1115 2011-02-13 03:33:23 <Lachesis> oh do you need crossfire support
1116 2011-02-13 03:33:32 <Lachesis> or can you just index each device separately or smt
1117 2011-02-13 03:33:34 <Mr_Coin> sure compared to a gf 210 the 5450 is great
1118 2011-02-13 03:33:41 <lfm> Lachesis: no better with crossfire off
1119 2011-02-13 03:33:53 <lfm> Lachesis: no, better with crossfire off
1120 2011-02-13 03:33:58 <Lachesis> lfm, cool
1121 2011-02-13 03:34:10 <Lachesis> so a board with 2 PCI-E 2.0 slots could run two GPU miners, period?
1122 2011-02-13 03:34:25 <RBecker> Lachesis, if your power supply supports it
1123 2011-02-13 03:34:34 <RBecker> IE has enough wattage to power them
1124 2011-02-13 03:34:34 <Lachesis> RBecker, yeah, thought of that :)
1125 2011-02-13 03:34:37 <lfm> ya, unless they have dual gpu chips per board
1126 2011-02-13 03:34:47 <RichardG> okay my choice is set, i'm thinking on a 5450
1127 2011-02-13 03:34:52 <RichardG> almost exactly 12mhashes
1128 2011-02-13 03:35:29 <Lachesis> would this board work?
1129 2011-02-13 03:35:30 <Lachesis> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157226
1130 2011-02-13 03:35:52 ntosme2 has left ()
1131 2011-02-13 03:36:01 <phantomcircuit> Lachesis, are you seriously building a system around being able to mine for bitcoins?
1132 2011-02-13 03:36:13 <RBecker> lots of people do
1133 2011-02-13 03:36:20 <Lachesis> phantomcircuit, yeah, now's the time if there is one
1134 2011-02-13 03:36:22 <RBecker> I know someone who has a whole farm for BOINC
1135 2011-02-13 03:36:25 <phantomcircuit> you're gonna need a lot of luck to recoup the investment
1136 2011-02-13 03:36:30 <Lachesis> once the fpgas are out, we're done
1137 2011-02-13 03:36:45 <Lachesis> phantomcircuit, nah, $300 or so will net me $75 a week at current diff
1138 2011-02-13 03:36:56 RichardG has quit (Quit: QUIIIIII T)
1139 2011-02-13 03:37:04 <Lachesis> and even if diff doubles, it'll only take 2 months to recoup
1140 2011-02-13 03:37:10 <Lachesis> assuming value stays sane
1141 2011-02-13 03:37:12 <lfm> Lachesis: hard to say for sure, sometimes BIOS refuses to recognize 2 video cards even when you have the slots
1142 2011-02-13 03:37:19 <RBecker> Lachesis, those slots may be too close together
1143 2011-02-13 03:37:22 <Lachesis> lfm, good to hear
1144 2011-02-13 03:37:29 <Lachesis> lfm, well no, but good to know  :)
1145 2011-02-13 03:37:33 <Lachesis> RBecker, ooh good point
1146 2011-02-13 03:37:36 <lfm> heh
1147 2011-02-13 03:37:39 <lfm> hehe
1148 2011-02-13 03:37:41 <dissipate_> can someone explain how there could be a target date for all 21 million bitcoins to be mined when the difficulty is only adjusted periodically? in theory, the average block production rate could be much higher than 6 per hour.
1149 2011-02-13 03:37:59 <Lachesis> dissipate_, and it is right now :)
1150 2011-02-13 03:38:17 <Lachesis> the target is based on the idea that block gen rate will be 6/hr
1151 2011-02-13 03:38:19 <dissipate_> Lachesis, that's my point
1152 2011-02-13 03:38:26 <dissipate_> Lachesis, but that's a bad assumption
1153 2011-02-13 03:38:30 <Lachesis> also, we'll never reach 21m
1154 2011-02-13 03:38:38 <dissipate_> Lachesis, why not?
1155 2011-02-13 03:38:44 <lfm> dissipate_ ya target dates assume long term the 6 block/hour target will average out
1156 2011-02-13 03:38:51 <Lachesis> the idea is that after bitcoin's explosive growth ends, it'll level off
1157 2011-02-13 03:38:58 <Lachesis> and diff will remain relatively constant
1158 2011-02-13 03:38:59 <RBecker> Lachesis, they look like they might be spaced enough, but think about what lfm said, about BIOS not recognizing it
1159 2011-02-13 03:39:03 <Lachesis> yeah
1160 2011-02-13 03:39:10 <RBecker> especially since it's ASRock, which is a lower-end brand
1161 2011-02-13 03:39:13 <RBecker> It's Asus's budget brand
1162 2011-02-13 03:39:24 <dissipate_> lfm, bad assumption. if Moore's law is broken with incredible breakthroughs, that target date could become a joke.
1163 2011-02-13 03:39:38 <lfm> Lachesis: prolly safer to get mb with explicit support for crossfire
1164 2011-02-13 03:39:42 <Lachesis> according to this, http://www.xiew.com/product-detail/asrock/a770de/
1165 2011-02-13 03:39:44 <Lachesis> it has crossfire
1166 2011-02-13 03:40:01 <RBecker> my board has crossfire support
1167 2011-02-13 03:40:03 <Lachesis> dissipate_, we'll never reach it b/c reward / block drops
1168 2011-02-13 03:40:05 <RBecker> but I have an NVIDIA card in it
1169 2011-02-13 03:40:22 <dissipate_> Lachesis, what do you mean?
1170 2011-02-13 03:40:33 <lfm> dissipate_ nope, every 2016 blocks the difficulty is adjusted so it can catch up pretty fast
1171 2011-02-13 03:40:39 <dissipate_> Lachesis, the reward is based on the value of a bitcoin, which is determined by market forces.
1172 2011-02-13 03:40:54 <Lachesis> yes, but each block is worth 50 bitcoins right now by fiat
1173 2011-02-13 03:41:07 <Lachesis> by the same fiat, it will drop to 25 at a certain block number
1174 2011-02-13 03:41:09 <Lachesis> then 12.5
1175 2011-02-13 03:41:09 <dissipate_> Lachesis, but the value of those bitcoins is not fixed.
1176 2011-02-13 03:41:12 <Lachesis> then 6.25 and so on
1177 2011-02-13 03:41:15 <[Noodles]> of course we'll reach the no-more-block-reward date, but that's just an estimated date, based on the fact that on average 6blocks/hour.....
1178 2011-02-13 03:41:20 <Lachesis> so we'll never reach 21m coins
1179 2011-02-13 03:41:21 <dissipate_> Lachesis, in the future 1 bitcoin could be worth $1 million
1180 2011-02-13 03:41:24 <Lachesis> sure
1181 2011-02-13 03:41:30 <Lachesis> just meaning, we'll never get 21 million
1182 2011-02-13 03:41:40 <Lachesis> 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+... < 1
1183 2011-02-13 03:41:51 <Lachesis> well until you actually take the inf sum...
1184 2011-02-13 03:41:51 <dissipate_> Lachesis, i believe there is actually an estimated date of reaching the 21 million mark.
1185 2011-02-13 03:41:52 <[Noodles]> that's also true
1186 2011-02-13 03:42:29 <Lachesis> dissipate_, i suppose at some point rounding error will force a 21 millionth bitcoin to be generated
1187 2011-02-13 03:42:29 <[Noodles]> "estimated" that's the point
1188 2011-02-13 03:42:38 <Lachesis> but by design, it shouldn't happen
1189 2011-02-13 03:42:44 <Mr_Coin> Lachesis, theoretically you are right but as bitcoins are limited to 8 digits, we will eventually reach 21m
1190 2011-02-13 03:43:00 <Lachesis> that limitation's starting to look like a bad idea, huh?
1191 2011-02-13 03:43:13 <lfm> dissipate_ yes based on the 50 btc rewards cut in half every 4 years (210000 blocks)
1192 2011-02-13 03:43:49 <[Noodles]> and based on ~6blocks / hour
1193 2011-02-13 03:44:23 <Mr_Coin> question ist, if anyone's still mining when the reqard is just 0.00000001 per block
1194 2011-02-13 03:44:27 <Mr_Coin> reward
1195 2011-02-13 03:44:37 <Lachesis> Mr_Coin, the theory is that transaction fees will help then
1196 2011-02-13 03:44:40 <lfm> 210000 blocks in 4 years should be pretty close to 6 blocks/hour
1197 2011-02-13 03:44:56 <Lachesis> will PCI-E 4x cause a bottleneck?
1198 2011-02-13 03:44:57 <Mr_Coin> yeah, maybe they will
1199 2011-02-13 03:45:07 <[Noodles]> someone will Mr_Coin
1200 2011-02-13 03:45:12 <RBecker> Lachesis, yes
1201 2011-02-13 03:45:16 <RBecker> It'll slow it down
1202 2011-02-13 03:45:17 <[Noodles]> i would, why not?
1203 2011-02-13 03:45:17 <Mr_Coin> Lachesis, no, even pci-e x1 causes no problems when mining
1204 2011-02-13 03:45:27 <Lachesis> hmm anyone have data to back this up?
1205 2011-02-13 03:45:29 <RBecker> would it not slow it down
1206 2011-02-13 03:45:30 <[Noodles]> to protect my coins, i'd gladly keep mining
1207 2011-02-13 03:45:40 <[Noodles]> anjd to be able to transfer them
1208 2011-02-13 03:45:43 <Mr_Coin> bandwidth over pcie is really low while mining
1209 2011-02-13 03:45:53 <Lachesis> another option is that big businesses would mine
1210 2011-02-13 03:45:59 <Lachesis> to support the network
1211 2011-02-13 03:46:05 <Lachesis> and perhaps charge a tx fee
1212 2011-02-13 03:46:07 <lfm> ya, you can actually use a pcie-x1 slot with an adapter to run a video card for mining
1213 2011-02-13 03:46:16 <Lachesis> lfm, have you done this?
1214 2011-02-13 03:46:21 <Mr_Coin> Lachesis, someone has been using 4 hd5970s, all connected over pcie x1 and he had no problems at all
1215 2011-02-13 03:46:26 <lfm> not me, someone did tho
1216 2011-02-13 03:46:46 <Lachesis> Mr_Coin, ty
1217 2011-02-13 03:46:49 <dissipate_> my question is how does the tx transmission rate scale? what if there are billions of txs a minute?
1218 2011-02-13 03:46:52 <lfm> I think it was ArtForz
1219 2011-02-13 03:47:12 <lfm> dissipatenot well
1220 2011-02-13 03:47:30 <dissipate_> lfm, sounds like an issue. :O
1221 2011-02-13 03:47:40 <lfm> dissipate_ not yet
1222 2011-02-13 03:47:47 <dissipate_> we will have to set up bit torrent to download transaction files!
1223 2011-02-13 03:47:47 nik62591 has joined
1224 2011-02-13 03:48:24 <nevezen>  hmm, seems like slush pool now requires a 2% minimum donation
1225 2011-02-13 03:48:33 <nevezen> because of slashdot? meh :)
1226 2011-02-13 03:48:37 <lfm> dissipate_ we can offload TXN to something like mybitcoin.com where people can trade bitcoin on that site without need for the main net
1227 2011-02-13 03:49:13 <lfm> dissipate_ or mtgox.com
1228 2011-02-13 03:49:22 doublec has joined
1229 2011-02-13 03:49:26 <dissipate_> lfm, the more people on those sites, the more a government crack down would hurt.
1230 2011-02-13 03:50:00 <dissipate_> lfm, the more it becomes centralized, the more easily it is targeted.
1231 2011-02-13 03:50:25 <lfm> dissipate_ thats up to them, but you dont really need to worry about interefance for most stuff
1232 2011-02-13 03:51:15 <lfm> interferance
1233 2011-02-13 03:51:45 <dissipate_> lfm, i guess what i am saying is that your proposed solution moves bitcoin away from it's original decentralized intent
1234 2011-02-13 03:52:17 <andrew12> hmm, the data in a block never changes, correct?
1235 2011-02-13 03:53:37 <lfm> dissipate_ you can still keep most of your balance safe on the main net just move stuff to another wallet for day-to-day. It like keeping most of your money in a bank for safety but moveing a smaller amount to your wallet for daya to day even though your wallet might be lost or stolen
1236 2011-02-13 03:53:38 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
1237 2011-02-13 03:53:52 <luke-jr> lfm: nevezen: the Intel IGP poclbm results were using the ATi Stream SDK
1238 2011-02-13 03:53:59 <dissipate_> lfm, that's true.
1239 2011-02-13 03:54:10 <Lachesis> dissipate_, yeah it does
1240 2011-02-13 03:54:12 dukeleto has joined
1241 2011-02-13 03:54:21 <Lachesis> but centralizing bitcoin, while it introduces some risks, certainly helps some problems
1242 2011-02-13 03:54:36 <Lachesis> as long as the network can operate in decentralized mode as well, i'd say it's still good
1243 2011-02-13 03:54:36 biter has joined
1244 2011-02-13 03:54:45 <dissipate_> lfm, so people could keep most of their BTC in an encrypted offline backed up wallet, and a relatively small amount on MyBitcoin etc. makes sense. cuts down the txs and if a crackdown occurs they don't lose too much on an individual basis.
1245 2011-02-13 03:55:00 <dissipate_> Lachesis, i agree.
1246 2011-02-13 03:55:26 <nevezen> lfm, that wouldn't help if all transactions are public
1247 2011-02-13 03:55:28 <lfm> and there will still be coices if you are worried about mybitcoin.com perhaps mtgox or some other site will suit you betetr, like mastercard or visa
1248 2011-02-13 03:56:04 <lfm> nevezen: are TXN are public now
1249 2011-02-13 03:56:16 <nevezen> I know.
1250 2011-02-13 03:56:46 <lfm> so long asmybitcoin remains secure it might be better privacy
1251 2011-02-13 03:56:46 <dissipate_> nevezen, i believe txs within MyBitcoin would just be an accounting update within MyBitcoin. i could be wrong though.
1252 2011-02-13 03:56:57 <nevezen> I guess using a third party/centralized approach doesn't help at all?
1253 2011-02-13 03:57:05 <nevezen> when you can use blockexplorer?
1254 2011-02-13 03:57:24 <dissipate_> nevezen, huh? we just explained how it does help.
1255 2011-02-13 03:57:39 <nevezen> all transactions are public anyway
1256 2011-02-13 03:57:42 <dissipate_> nevezen, a centralized system can significantly cut transaction costs and transaction load.
1257 2011-02-13 03:58:07 <lfm> nevezen: txn between people both on mybitcoin do not show up in block explorer
1258 2011-02-13 03:58:08 <dissipate_> nevezen, not transactions within MyBitcoin or some other centralized Bitcoin service. your balance there are 'book' bitcoins.
1259 2011-02-13 03:58:14 <Lachesis> y'all running stock coolers on your gpus?
1260 2011-02-13 03:58:31 <lfm> Lachesis: I think so ya
1261 2011-02-13 03:58:38 <nevezen> yes lachesis
1262 2011-02-13 03:58:40 <luke-jr> I am
1263 2011-02-13 03:58:51 <Lachesis> cool
1264 2011-02-13 03:59:11 <nevezen> so blockexplorer doesn't see all transactions passing through the network?
1265 2011-02-13 03:59:12 <lfm> Lachesis: you may need to be carefull with some cheapo brands use cheapo coolers
1266 2011-02-13 03:59:21 <luke-jr> nevezen: it does.
1267 2011-02-13 03:59:29 <luke-jr> nevezen: #bitcoin-monitor is more useful IMO
1268 2011-02-13 04:01:11 <lfm> nevezen: stuff purly within mybitcoin doesnt get on the main btc net, like stuff internal to mtgox isnt on the main net. its only when you move stuff in or out it shows up
1269 2011-02-13 04:01:24 jgarzik_web has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1270 2011-02-13 04:02:01 <nevezen> that would kind of defeat the purpose of bitcoin, wouldn't it?
1271 2011-02-13 04:02:14 <lfm> not really
1272 2011-02-13 04:02:25 <joe_1> bitcoin-monitor... which is input and which is output?
1273 2011-02-13 04:02:43 <dissipate_> nevezen, when you put bitcoins into MyBitcoin, they are in the MyBitcoin wallet.
1274 2011-02-13 04:02:46 <nevezen> well it's separating itself from the main network..
1275 2011-02-13 04:02:57 <luke-jr> joe_1: it only shows output
1276 2011-02-13 04:03:12 <joe_1> oh
1277 2011-02-13 04:03:20 <lfm> nevezen: so
1278 2011-02-13 04:03:22 <dissipate_> nevezen, when you transfer to someone within MyBitcoin, the tx does not get transmitted to the Bitcoin network, MyBitcoin just updates the balance of whoever you sent to as well as your balance.
1279 2011-02-13 04:03:46 <OneFixt> nevezen: just look at those sites as using their own currency backed 1:1 by bitcoin
1280 2011-02-13 04:03:52 <OneFixt> like currency is supposed to be
1281 2011-02-13 04:04:01 <dissipate_> nevezen, yes, MyBitcoin will only send out transfers to the bitcoin network. make sense?
1282 2011-02-13 04:04:42 <nevezen> and what happens when the 3rd party gets shut down? Dare I say mybitcoin?
1283 2011-02-13 04:04:48 <nevezen> before a transfer can take place?
1284 2011-02-13 04:04:54 <dissipate_> so if i transfer out of MyBitcoin to my Bitcoin wallet, that *will* be transmitted to the Bitcoin network. but txs within MyBitcoin will not be.
1285 2011-02-13 04:05:12 <lfm> nevezen: thats a risk you take
1286 2011-02-13 04:05:23 <dissipate_> nevezen, we were just talking about that. in theory only a small portion of your BTC should be in MyBitcoin for day to day transfers.
1287 2011-02-13 04:05:36 <nevezen> oh, as a proxy?
1288 2011-02-13 04:05:38 <joe_1> when mybitcoin folds up, all account holders will lose their mybitcoin money.
1289 2011-02-13 04:05:47 <OneFixt> like a wallet that you take with you, for daily spending
1290 2011-02-13 04:05:56 <OneFixt> or like a paypal account
1291 2011-02-13 04:06:30 <dissipate_> joe_1, not necessarily. if mybitcoin had a way of doing an emergency dump to user's bitcoin wallets, it might not turn out too bad. this could be done with an emergency switch or a deadman's switch.
1292 2011-02-13 04:06:31 <nevezen> so what's wrong with not using 3rd party services?
1293 2011-02-13 04:06:47 <OneFixt> on the other hand, some people would be safer letting mybitcoin manage their bitcoins, especially if they are not technically savvy enough to take care of their own wallet files
1294 2011-02-13 04:07:00 <lfm> nevezen: you can do that but the main net is slower
1295 2011-02-13 04:07:25 <dissipate_> nevezen, scalability and cost. the bitcoin network could get inundated with txs, and it is more expensive since each transaction must be in a block with a calculated hash.
1296 2011-02-13 04:07:37 <nevezen> so the idea of using a 3rd party is to lighten up transaction costs/load on the main network?
1297 2011-02-13 04:07:47 <lfm> nevezen: mybitcoin.com can also do instantanious TXN, no "confirmations" wait needed
1298 2011-02-13 04:08:17 <lfm> nevezen: that is one reason, ya
1299 2011-02-13 04:08:24 <dissipate_> yep, that too.
1300 2011-02-13 04:08:26 <midnightmagic_> to preseed another machine's block-chain, whats the minimum i need to copy across?
1301 2011-02-13 04:08:50 <jgarzik> midnightmagic_: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/block-db-94000.tar.bz2
1302 2011-02-13 04:09:05 <dissipate_> joe_1, why couldn't mybitcoin protect its customers from a shutdown by having an emergency switch to dump all user's bitcoins back to their wallets??
1303 2011-02-13 04:09:21 <joe_1> i would like to see somebody make a linux boot CD that allows you too send a lot of your wallet to a new wallet in a new addr, then encrypt the new wallet. kind of like a safety vault
1304 2011-02-13 04:09:34 <jgarzik> dissipate: who says a mybitcoin customer has a wallet?
1305 2011-02-13 04:09:35 <lfm> nevezen: also mybitcoin.com can be accessed from ANY browser. you dont need the whole blockchain on your local device
1306 2011-02-13 04:09:55 <nevezen> I see
1307 2011-02-13 04:10:00 <midnightmagic_> jgarzik: i'd hate to download that whole file just find out the filenames. i have working bitcoind here..?
1308 2011-02-13 04:10:03 <dissipate_> jgarzik, i'm assuming they would. how else could they get BTC into MyBitcoin??
1309 2011-02-13 04:10:07 <midnightmagic_> just getting my brother set up. :)
1310 2011-02-13 04:10:15 <jgarzik> midnightmagic_: blk*.dat
1311 2011-02-13 04:10:17 <joe_1> dissipate: it depends if we could trust mybitcoin not to run away
1312 2011-02-13 04:10:21 <midnightmagic_> jgarzik: thank you.
1313 2011-02-13 04:10:35 <jgarzik> dissipate_: someone else paid them
1314 2011-02-13 04:10:35 <nevezen> but it sounds risky than it already is
1315 2011-02-13 04:10:36 <doublec> dissipate_: they can get it by running a miner in a pooil or the faucet by using the address mybitcoin supplies
1316 2011-02-13 04:11:08 <jgarzik> doublec: ...or being a merchant
1317 2011-02-13 04:11:08 <dissipate_> joe_1, it seems if mybitcoin was trustworthy, each account holder could put their public wallet key in their account, upon which all their BTC would be sent to in case of a shut down. an emergency procedure.
1318 2011-02-13 04:11:25 <lfm> joe_1: anyone can make a competitor to mybitcoin.com and try to be trusted more than them
1319 2011-02-13 04:11:42 <dissipate_> doublec, i see. mybitcoin could *suggest* to users to get a wallet and put a wallet key in their account in case of a shut down.
1320 2011-02-13 04:11:48 <jgarzik> part of the attraction of mybitcoin.com is that "normal people" don't have to run bitcoin on their own computers, or know what is a wallet
1321 2011-02-13 04:11:59 <jgarzik> it's just a website and a currency
1322 2011-02-13 04:12:11 <dissipate_> jgarzik, reminds me of 1mdc
1323 2011-02-13 04:12:13 <lfm> dissipate_ some people might do that if they dont have a system capable of running the bitcoin client
1324 2011-02-13 04:12:26 <doublec> dissipate_: or have an emergency 'address' that can be used for mybitcoin to send too. That address could be with another online service.
1325 2011-02-13 04:12:40 <Kiba> dead man's switch
1326 2011-02-13 04:13:14 <dissipate_> doublec, yep
1327 2011-02-13 04:13:19 <joe_1> that would work, if mybitcoin actually had all the hard stuff to back up the numbers in all the mybitcoin accounts...
1328 2011-02-13 04:13:35 <nevezen> that emergency dump suggestion doesn't sound effective
1329 2011-02-13 04:13:54 <dissipate_> personally, i think it is too early to trust a site like MyBitcoin. they could be on fractional reserve for all we know.
1330 2011-02-13 04:13:55 <noagendamarket> Every so oftem mybitcoin and mt gox should mix all the coins together :)
1331 2011-02-13 04:14:12 <Kiba> there's a whole forum topic on how to verify bitcoin banks
1332 2011-02-13 04:14:13 <nevezen> if the service gets shut down abruptly, just how is it going to dump your coins back to your wallet? ;0
1333 2011-02-13 04:14:13 <dissipate_> nevezen, why not?
1334 2011-02-13 04:14:18 <Kiba> for acting as fractional reserve banks
1335 2011-02-13 04:14:37 <dissipate_> nevezen, dead man's switch on an offsite backup of the site.
1336 2011-02-13 04:14:53 <lfm> noagendamarket: pointless, If you deposit 10btc then withdraw 10 btc there may be no link bewtween those txn
1337 2011-02-13 04:14:59 <afed> i am going to open a fractional reserve bank with bitcoins
1338 2011-02-13 04:15:05 <afed> just to troll you guys
1339 2011-02-13 04:15:06 <nevezen> hmm, that' interesting
1340 2011-02-13 04:15:16 <afed> nevezen: would you like to borrow 1000 bitcoins?
1341 2011-02-13 04:15:23 <afed> well i only have one in my wallet HAHAHAHA
1342 2011-02-13 04:15:26 <nevezen> so instead of a takedown, keep the service up to prevent a dead man's switch scenario
1343 2011-02-13 04:15:27 <afed> but go ahead and spend them all
1344 2011-02-13 04:15:31 <lfm> noagendamarket: actually lumping coins together makes them EASIER to trace
1345 2011-02-13 04:15:44 <nevezen> afed: sure
1346 2011-02-13 04:15:50 <nevezen> you probably wouldn't get it back though
1347 2011-02-13 04:15:54 <dissipate_> noagendamarket, how so?
1348 2011-02-13 04:16:09 <afed> nevezen: now take that lesson to a real bank
1349 2011-02-13 04:16:16 <afed> nevezen: borrow some money and then NEVER GIVE IT BACK
1350 2011-02-13 04:16:21 <afed> they'll be totally owned
1351 2011-02-13 04:16:24 <noagendamarket> Just send bulk payments to each other
1352 2011-02-13 04:16:35 <noagendamarket> lol
1353 2011-02-13 04:16:41 <nevezen> not so. When you default, they sue ya. Or they do to some people. :)
1354 2011-02-13 04:16:53 <afed> anyway, mybitcoin is one step away from a fractional reserve bank
1355 2011-02-13 04:16:56 <lfm> noagendamarket: send small random amounts to each other
1356 2011-02-13 04:16:57 <afed> if you didn't realise
1357 2011-02-13 04:17:07 <afed> you can't even prove that they aren't operating that way already
1358 2011-02-13 04:17:07 <noagendamarket> Ifm yeah that too
1359 2011-02-13 04:17:59 <dissipate_> afed, if you only have a small amount in your account doesn't matter much.
1360 2011-02-13 04:18:19 <nevezen> I'm amused about the original idea of bitcoin but in this channel (and perhaps the forums), I read about applying real world systems to bitcoin..
1361 2011-02-13 04:18:19 <afed> dissipate_: the wealthy like fractional reserve banking
1362 2011-02-13 04:18:51 <lfm> noagendamarket: bulk TXN actually tie different TXN together making it easier to trace i think
1363 2011-02-13 04:19:01 <dissipate_> afed, i know that, but any fractional reserve banking with bit coins would be very limited, unless people were dumb and left large amounts of BTC in third party accounts.
1364 2011-02-13 04:19:22 <afed> right...
1365 2011-02-13 04:20:01 <dissipate_> afed, you can easily transfer small amounts to say MyBitcoin each week, or even each day.
1366 2011-02-13 04:20:04 <lfm> dissipate_ they might pay interest to get people to deposit
1367 2011-02-13 04:20:24 <noagendamarket> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8320912/Egypt-Hosni-Mubarak-used-last-18-days-in-power-to-secure-his-fortune.html
1368 2011-02-13 04:20:36 <noagendamarket> lol anonymous accounts offshore
1369 2011-02-13 04:20:46 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: did he spend it all on bitcoins?
1370 2011-02-13 04:20:50 <dissipate_> lfm, if people fall for that, they are dumb. and dumb people lose money no matter what system is in place.
1371 2011-02-13 04:20:50 <noagendamarket> one rule for politicians it seems
1372 2011-02-13 04:20:53 <joe_1> why did people revolt against mubarak
1373 2011-02-13 04:20:53 <noagendamarket> hahaha
1374 2011-02-13 04:20:58 <noagendamarket> maybe he did buy btc
1375 2011-02-13 04:21:12 genjix has quit (Changing host)
1376 2011-02-13 04:21:12 genjix has joined
1377 2011-02-13 04:21:40 <dissipate_> good god that guy is fugly
1378 2011-02-13 04:21:45 <noagendamarket> will it actually work just transferring power to his son ?
1379 2011-02-13 04:21:45 <noagendamarket> are people that stupid to fall for it ?
1380 2011-02-13 04:21:51 <noagendamarket> like replacing bush woth obama lol
1381 2011-02-13 04:21:56 <dissipate_> apparently good looks is not a pre-requisite for taking power in Egypt
1382 2011-02-13 04:22:30 <dissipate_> noagendamarket, people are pretty stupid. look at the Kennedys, Bushes and Clintons.
1383 2011-02-13 04:22:45 <noagendamarket> I prefer not to look at them
1384 2011-02-13 04:22:48 <noagendamarket> lol
1385 2011-02-13 04:22:58 <dissipate_> well look at how powerful they are
1386 2011-02-13 04:23:16 <noagendamarket> no they are only front men
1387 2011-02-13 04:23:18 <luke-jr> that article is clear: he bought bitcoins
1388 2011-02-13 04:23:24 <noagendamarket> they are actors
1389 2011-02-13 04:23:31 <Mango-chan> http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/12/eighth-circuit-declares-razr-a-computer-under-federal-law/
1390 2011-02-13 04:23:33 <Mango-chan> lol
1391 2011-02-13 04:23:37 <joe_1> look at obama, we elected a muslim 7 years after 9/11
1392 2011-02-13 04:23:55 <noagendamarket> the price rose to 1.11 because mubarak bought bitcoins lol
1393 2011-02-13 04:24:02 <noagendamarket> now I understand
1394 2011-02-13 04:24:09 <nevezen> obama is not muslim..
1395 2011-02-13 04:24:14 <midnightmagic_> not only a muslim! a fundie muslim!
1396 2011-02-13 04:24:26 <joe_1> he was elected as a peace offering to muslim terrorists
1397 2011-02-13 04:25:12 <ZenMondo> So you think its a secret conspiracy involving the millions of people that voted for him?
1398 2011-02-13 04:25:17 <joe_1> no
1399 2011-02-13 04:25:28 <joe_1> people voted for him to make us look more compassionate to muslims
1400 2011-02-13 04:25:46 <Mango-chan> joe_1 you have your head up your ass
1401 2011-02-13 04:25:49 <afed> obama doesn't have a birth certificate
1402 2011-02-13 04:25:51 <afed> he was never born
1403 2011-02-13 04:26:02 <midnightmagic_> joe_1: you are my new hero-of-the-day. ;)
1404 2011-02-13 04:26:13 <Lachesis> ;;bc,help
1405 2011-02-13 04:26:14 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
1406 2011-02-13 04:26:45 <luke-jr> joe_1: I voted* for him to change the status quo, even knowing it was a change for the worse
1407 2011-02-13 04:27:10 <Lachesis> ;;bc,timetonext
1408 2011-02-13 04:27:10 <gribble> 5 days, 20 hours, 55 minutes, and 15 seconds
1409 2011-02-13 04:27:14 <Lachesis> is that accurate?
1410 2011-02-13 04:27:16 <dissipate_> ZenMondo, no conspiracy, they are just dumb.
1411 2011-02-13 04:27:20 <phantomcircuit> are the binaries distributed with the debug build of wxwidgets?!
1412 2011-02-13 04:27:22 <luke-jr> now give Alan Keyes a chance at the presidency, and I'll vote for him
1413 2011-02-13 04:27:32 <luke-jr> Lachesis: it cannot be
1414 2011-02-13 04:27:33 <dissipate_> wow, getting feisty in here, oh my
1415 2011-02-13 04:27:42 <luke-jr> Lachesis: only a time traveller could tell you accurately
1416 2011-02-13 04:27:51 <Lachesis> i.e. does it try to measure the rate of blocks generated since the last change, or does it just assume 2016 blocks with 6 blocks / hr?
1417 2011-02-13 04:28:15 <joe_1> the scary thing is how it doesn't really matter who you elect. there's a power structure in Washington that seems to transcend the election cycles.
1418 2011-02-13 04:28:41 <dissipate_> joe_1, the system has that built right in
1419 2011-02-13 04:30:12 <joe_1> why couldn't the democratic president + democratic congress manage to repeal the patriot act?
1420 2011-02-13 04:30:30 <noagendamarket> http://witticisms.witcoin.com/p/119/Egypt-Hosni-Mubarak-transfers-his-fortune-to-bitcoin
1421 2011-02-13 04:30:32 <noagendamarket> lol
1422 2011-02-13 04:30:36 <dissipate_> joe_1, and give up power?
1423 2011-02-13 04:30:36 <luke-jr> joe_1: because they want it
1424 2011-02-13 04:31:15 <hacim> joe_1: the house is the one who just passed it, and its republican controlled, but I dont have high hopes for the democrats
1425 2011-02-13 04:32:04 <joe_1> yeah, we have a runaway government
1426 2011-02-13 04:32:42 <noagendamarket> A spokesperson for the anonymous internet currency bitcoin said the recent strength of the bitcoin against the dollar was the reason the corrupt former dictator chose to buy into the emerging currency,which reached parity with the US dollar recently.
1427 2011-02-13 04:32:48 <noagendamarket> lol
1428 2011-02-13 04:35:18 devon_hillard_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1429 2011-02-13 04:35:26 <newsham> there's a spokespeerson for bitcoin?
1430 2011-02-13 04:35:43 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,stats
1431 2011-02-13 04:35:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107773 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1090 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 20 hours, 47 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33573.59202657
1432 2011-02-13 04:36:24 <hacim> newsham: yes, I'm it
1433 2011-02-13 04:37:57 <lfm> distributed spokesperson(s)
1434 2011-02-13 04:38:36 <newsham> hacim: sweet
1435 2011-02-13 04:39:23 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1436 2011-02-13 04:39:33 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1437 2011-02-13 04:40:32 glassresistor has joined
1438 2011-02-13 04:40:38 <glassresistor> just checked the market
1439 2011-02-13 04:40:42 <glassresistor> and realized im rich
1440 2011-02-13 04:40:52 <glassresistor> anyone with advice on the market
1441 2011-02-13 04:41:13 <midnightmagic_> how rich? are you that guy with 400,000 BTC in his wallet?
1442 2011-02-13 04:41:59 <Lachesis> glassresistor, yeah, how much?
1443 2011-02-13 04:42:33 <Lachesis> if you want to sell, use dark pools on MtGox or something
1444 2011-02-13 04:43:20 <glassresistor> midnightmagic_: not quite but i have a months paycheck in them
1445 2011-02-13 04:43:25 <lfm> or just sell small blocks (1000 btc or so)
1446 2011-02-13 04:43:51 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: good for you! split your sells into multiple orders, and ask for a range of prices, and see what happens. :)
1447 2011-02-13 04:44:03 <glassresistor> i just put up 100 on the btc market for paypal at 1.2
1448 2011-02-13 04:44:05 <luke-jr> …or just hold onto them and become even richer
1449 2011-02-13 04:44:20 <glassresistor> i plan on keeping most
1450 2011-02-13 04:44:21 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: on mtgox? or somewhere else?
1451 2011-02-13 04:44:27 <lfm> glassresistor: mtgox is more active but up to you
1452 2011-02-13 04:44:35 <glassresistor> bitcoinmarket.com
1453 2011-02-13 04:44:52 <glassresistor> whats the difference?
1454 2011-02-13 04:44:56 <midnightmagic_> mtgox is way more active. :)
1455 2011-02-13 04:44:59 <luke-jr> you can't get real cash from mtgox tho
1456 2011-02-13 04:45:00 <joe_1> it's old school but still good
1457 2011-02-13 04:45:16 <midnightmagic_> luke-jr: sure you can. you just have to be more patient.
1458 2011-02-13 04:45:17 <glassresistor> cool hows its work?  which has higher selling prices?
1459 2011-02-13 04:45:29 <glassresistor> last time i looked it was at .3 and now its 1.2
1460 2011-02-13 04:45:31 <andrew12> just got bitcoin.tk, added it to afraid.org
1461 2011-02-13 04:45:35 <lfm> prices are about the same
1462 2011-02-13 04:45:52 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
1463 2011-02-13 04:45:52 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.08,"low":0.9907,"vol":4043,"buy":1.05,"sell":1.075,"last":1.075}}
1464 2011-02-13 04:46:05 <midnightmagic_> ;;bc,calc
1465 2011-02-13 04:46:05 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1466 2011-02-13 04:46:42 <newsham> market advice is easy to come by
1467 2011-02-13 04:46:49 <newsham> and usually worth what you pay for it (or less)
1468 2011-02-13 04:47:19 <newsham> my advice: sell some now, if it goes higher sell more, etc..
1469 2011-02-13 04:47:33 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
1470 2011-02-13 04:47:53 <joe_1> they're going to be worth $3000 in 2 years
1471 2011-02-13 04:48:08 dukeleto has joined
1472 2011-02-13 04:48:17 <glassresistor> well i've got 100 in the market, at 1.2
1473 2011-02-13 04:48:34 <glassresistor> i plan on keeping most till they level out at some higher price
1474 2011-02-13 04:48:47 <lfm> good luck
1475 2011-02-13 04:49:08 <newsham> you bought 100btc @ $1.2/btc?
1476 2011-02-13 04:49:27 <lfm> selling
1477 2011-02-13 04:49:32 <glassresistor> but it offers me some confurt to check and see how hard it is to sel them
1478 2011-02-13 04:49:41 <dissipate_> confurt?
1479 2011-02-13 04:49:43 <dissipate_> hehe
1480 2011-02-13 04:49:49 <glassresistor> newsham: nah im selling 100 btc for 1.2$
1481 2011-02-13 04:49:52 <glassresistor> each
1482 2011-02-13 04:50:01 <glassresistor> that looked like the market price
1483 2011-02-13 04:50:26 <glassresistor> any clue how long itll take before i get a bite?
1484 2011-02-13 04:50:34 <newsham> market price right now is 1.05/1.075
1485 2011-02-13 04:50:50 <newsham> i would guess you get a fill on your order within the next 2 weeks
1486 2011-02-13 04:51:56 <glassresistor> newsham: wow thats a long time
1487 2011-02-13 04:52:01 <glassresistor> https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/home/trends/
1488 2011-02-13 04:52:09 <glassresistor> that says its around 1.2
1489 2011-02-13 04:52:13 <newsham> you're talking about a 20% rise in price.
1490 2011-02-13 04:52:17 <newsham> 2 weeks sounds really fast to me :)
1491 2011-02-13 04:52:23 <lfm> it might be in two min too
1492 2011-02-13 04:52:43 <glassresistor> yeah im looking for an average honestly
1493 2011-02-13 04:53:15 <lfm> if you wanted to seel quick Id go for 1.05 or so
1494 2011-02-13 04:53:58 <hacim> $15 difference
1495 2011-02-13 04:54:00 <lfm> you can always change em anyway if they dont go
1496 2011-02-13 04:54:45 <newsham> put in sell @ 1.15, when it fills, put in buy @ 1.05.  rinse and repeat.
1497 2011-02-13 04:56:32 <lfm> ;;bc,bcm
1498 2011-02-13 04:56:33 <gribble> [{"pair": "BCUSD[MoneyBookers]", "ask": 0.0, "bid": 0.37, "time": 1297572587}, {"pair": "BCGAU[Pecunix]", "ask": 0.0, "bid": 0.0045999999999999999, "time": 1297572587}, {"pair": "BCUSD[PayPal]", "ask": 1.2, "bid": 1.0600000000000001, "time": 1297572587}, {"pair": "BCUSD[LibertyReserve]", "ask": 1.1000000000000001, "bid": 1.1000000000000001, "time": 1297572587}]
1499 2011-02-13 04:56:57 <lfm> so ya 1.20 is the lowest ask atm
1500 2011-02-13 04:57:36 <lfm> but see 1.06 bid is what you go for if you want to sell now
1501 2011-02-13 04:58:20 <lfm> if you're set on paypal at least
1502 2011-02-13 05:02:09 <midnightmagic_> bid for $1.10? pretty neat.
1503 2011-02-13 05:02:59 <glassresistor> midnightmagic_: ?
1504 2011-02-13 05:03:21 <midnightmagic_> LR
1505 2011-02-13 05:03:39 <lfm> market must be closed or that would go thru
1506 2011-02-13 05:04:31 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: there's someone bidding for $1.10 for libertyreserve dollars. that's a good price considering on mtgox it's going right now for.. $1.05 or $1.07 or so.
1507 2011-02-13 05:10:33 <afed> speaking of that
1508 2011-02-13 05:10:42 <afed> what's everyone's favourite exchanger of liberty reserve
1509 2011-02-13 05:11:02 <newsham> bitcoinmorpheus does LR right?
1510 2011-02-13 05:12:10 <joe_1> no
1511 2011-02-13 05:13:44 <joe_1> but morepheus accepts money orders, checks, and paypal
1512 2011-02-13 05:14:43 pogden has joined
1513 2011-02-13 05:16:09 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1514 2011-02-13 05:17:54 <joe_1> 1. write a check to bitcoinmorpheus for 500 coins 2. after 179 days dispute the check 3. profit
1515 2011-02-13 05:18:07 <afed> yawn
1516 2011-02-13 05:18:41 <joe_1> afed are you still looking for opnions on the best LR exchanger?
1517 2011-02-13 05:18:44 <newsham> :(
1518 2011-02-13 05:18:45 <afed> joe_1: sure
1519 2011-02-13 05:18:53 <newsham> 4. morpheus jacks up rates or closes shop
1520 2011-02-13 05:18:56 <newsham> 5. suck
1521 2011-02-13 05:18:59 <joe_1> afed: getemoney.com
1522 2011-02-13 05:19:02 <afed> joe_1: i just cashed out some LR and it took a while but i got a check and it seems ok
1523 2011-02-13 05:19:10 <afed> joe_1: how is getemoney?
1524 2011-02-13 05:19:17 <joe_1> there good
1525 2011-02-13 05:19:28 <afed> any others?
1526 2011-02-13 05:19:40 <joe_1> none that i've tried
1527 2011-02-13 05:19:56 <afed> but no problems with them
1528 2011-02-13 05:20:19 <afed> that's who i used
1529 2011-02-13 05:20:28 <afed> but i've only cashed out once so far
1530 2011-02-13 05:20:45 nik62591 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1531 2011-02-13 05:20:46 <joe_1> mail takes a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time
1532 2011-02-13 05:21:09 <joe_1> but the transactions are eventually successful
1533 2011-02-13 05:21:19 <afed> handwritten check @_@
1534 2011-02-13 05:21:43 <afed> just some guy arbitraging between LR and real money
1535 2011-02-13 05:21:54 <afed> nice business though
1536 2011-02-13 05:22:21 <glassresistor> midnightmagic_: i don't have a liberty reserver account
1537 2011-02-13 05:22:39 <midnightmagic_> glassresistor: it's easy to set up. i think you don't even have to show them any ID.
1538 2011-02-13 05:22:41 <joe_1> well the trouble is he's doing well. there's just not enough people doing exchanging because of laws. we're basically paying these people to break the law for us.
1539 2011-02-13 05:23:11 <afed> no one is doing anything illegal
1540 2011-02-13 05:23:29 <joe_1> yes and no. it's not technically illegal, but the government would love to shut these people down for money laundering anyway.
1541 2011-02-13 05:23:29 <afed> what the hell are you talking about
1542 2011-02-13 05:23:42 <joe_1> look at egold. nothing illegal there either.
1543 2011-02-13 05:24:05 <afed> isn't egold operating again?
1544 2011-02-13 05:24:12 <afed> and all the other operators took the same lesson
1545 2011-02-13 05:24:18 <afed> strict record keeping and accountability
1546 2011-02-13 05:24:42 <afed> for my part, i have laundered no money or commited any other crime
1547 2011-02-13 05:24:49 <afed> anyone with a court order to see my records may verify that
1548 2011-02-13 05:25:03 <glassresistor> on the market. if someone makes a bid for 200 at 1.06 and i have a ask for 100 at 1.06
1549 2011-02-13 05:25:06 <joe_1> patriot act = no court order needed
1550 2011-02-13 05:25:07 <glassresistor> will that go through
1551 2011-02-13 05:25:27 <afed> good luck sending a national security letter to "bitcoin"
1552 2011-02-13 05:25:43 <joe_1> no, i would send the letter to your exchanger
1553 2011-02-13 05:26:20 <afed> that wouldn't be the complete chain of transactions
1554 2011-02-13 05:27:00 <afed> the only way to get the bitcoin transactions is from me, and even the patriot act doesn't circumvent due process for that
1555 2011-02-13 05:27:13 MartianW has joined
1556 2011-02-13 05:27:26 <glassresistor> the goverments would attack the currency exchangers first, if paypal/liberty/etc. have good enough lawyers then they will probably go after freenode, then the websites facilitating it
1557 2011-02-13 05:27:48 <afed> stop pretending you're doing something wrong
1558 2011-02-13 05:27:57 <newsham> Congress may establish uniform laws relating to naturalization and bankruptcy. It may also coin money, regulate the value of American or foreign currency and punish counterfeiters. Congress may fix the standards of weights and measures.
1559 2011-02-13 05:28:30 <glassresistor> afed: we arnt doing anything WRONG but we are doing something that wlll eventually piss off visa
1560 2011-02-13 05:28:32 <joe_1> afed: do you suffer from that delusion that things that are illegal are automatically wrong? i'm not doing anything wrong. is it illegal? maybe.
1561 2011-02-13 05:28:59 <afed> i claim you are deluded because you think you're doing something illegal
1562 2011-02-13 05:29:27 <glassresistor> glassresistor: and pissing off visa is fairly equivalent to making something illedgal
1563 2011-02-13 05:29:28 <joe_1> first of all the law is complex. so if somebody comes to the wrong conclusion about the legality of something it's not delusional.
1564 2011-02-13 05:29:45 <noagendamarket> lmao @ afed
1565 2011-02-13 05:29:48 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
1566 2011-02-13 05:30:11 <noagendamarket> theres no crime if theres no victim
1567 2011-02-13 05:30:13 <joe_1> second, in this world we live in today, there seems to be a trend against any anonymous money moving.
1568 2011-02-13 05:30:40 <glassresistor> could someone answer this question? on the market. if someone makes a bid for 200 at 1.06 and i have a ask for 100 at 1.06
1569 2011-02-13 05:30:52 <afed> glassresistor: that's a ridiculous spread
1570 2011-02-13 05:30:59 <afed> er
1571 2011-02-13 05:31:06 <glassresistor> afed: ?
1572 2011-02-13 05:31:11 <afed> scuse me i've been drinking
1573 2011-02-13 05:31:12 <afed> anyway continue
1574 2011-02-13 05:31:35 <Kiba> I think people should make anonymous money a civil liberty!
1575 2011-02-13 05:31:41 <afed> i think 100 would sell for the price of 1.06?
1576 2011-02-13 05:31:41 <noagendamarket> Mubarak just moved 18 billion into anonymous offshore acounts
1577 2011-02-13 05:31:43 <newsham> it should partially fill and leave the rest of the order in the queue
1578 2011-02-13 05:31:59 <glassresistor> will my ask go through even though it only fits half there bid?
1579 2011-02-13 05:32:03 <newsham> ie fill 100@1.06 and leave bid 100@1.06 in queue
1580 2011-02-13 05:32:05 <noagendamarket> will they send a letter to him?
1581 2011-02-13 05:32:12 <glassresistor> newsham: yes
1582 2011-02-13 05:32:13 <afed> that's the way it works on mtgox
1583 2011-02-13 05:32:14 <noagendamarket> lol
1584 2011-02-13 05:32:20 <afed> it fills the order partially
1585 2011-02-13 05:32:37 <glassresistor> sweet well i see this bid in the que and mine
1586 2011-02-13 05:32:42 <glassresistor> but nothings happened
1587 2011-02-13 05:33:04 <afed> iirc on (for example) optionsexpress, it is an optional whether to fill orders partially
1588 2011-02-13 05:33:06 <glassresistor> is there a period of time it takes to make a deal once one is available?
1589 2011-02-13 05:33:33 <afed> again it depends on the exchange
1590 2011-02-13 05:33:44 <afed> on mtgox an order will stay out there until it's filled or you remove it
1591 2011-02-13 05:33:51 <glassresistor> im using paypal on bitcoinmarket.com
1592 2011-02-13 05:33:55 <newsham> it should fill as soon as it is possible to fill
1593 2011-02-13 05:34:42 Shfork has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1594 2011-02-13 05:35:15 Shfork has joined
1595 2011-02-13 05:35:59 <glassresistor> https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/home/markets/
1596 2011-02-13 05:36:50 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1597 2011-02-13 05:37:24 <glassresistor> my ask is the first two on that page and the bid im talking about is the 2nd in the bid table
1598 2011-02-13 05:37:53 <glassresistor> but i don't see anything going through
1599 2011-02-13 05:38:22 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1600 2011-02-13 05:38:37 <midnightmagic_> i wonder how good mtgox is at server security..
1601 2011-02-13 05:38:39 <newsham> could the website be showing you rounded numbers when storing them internally with more precision?
1602 2011-02-13 05:41:36 <glassresistor> newsham: who was this intended for?
1603 2011-02-13 05:41:55 <newsham> your question about why its not filling immediately?
1604 2011-02-13 05:41:55 BCBot has joined
1605 2011-02-13 05:42:27 <glassresistor> ah so they are asking for 1.059
1606 2011-02-13 05:42:29 <glassresistor> or something
1607 2011-02-13 05:47:27 <glassresistor> newsham: its they are asking 1.06000 looking at the xml so i don't think its a rounding problem
1608 2011-02-13 05:49:19 <glassresistor> newsham: i went back in and changed my ask to 200 for 1.0600, still havn't seen any trades pop up
1609 2011-02-13 05:49:31 <glassresistor> how will i know anyways?
1610 2011-02-13 05:52:40 Ljrn900 has joined
1611 2011-02-13 05:55:03 redukt has left ()
1612 2011-02-13 05:55:10 <glassresistor> if anyone feels like helping me test on the market that would be great, ill willing to do a small amount and tradeback in the end
1613 2011-02-13 05:56:10 * Kiba ponders when the new bitcoin market is going to go live
1614 2011-02-13 05:57:22 <dissipate_> Kiba, what is the new bitcoin market?
1615 2011-02-13 05:57:36 malfy has quit (Quit: leaving)
1616 2011-02-13 05:58:12 <Kiba> dissipate_: a major upgrade to the bitcoin market
1617 2011-02-13 05:58:23 <dissipate_> Kiba, what bitcoin market?
1618 2011-02-13 05:58:38 <Kiba> bitcoinmarket.com
1619 2011-02-13 05:59:49 <dissipate_> i got a 404
1620 2011-02-13 06:00:09 <glassresistor> oh im an idiot it says the market is closed
1621 2011-02-13 06:00:25 <glassresistor> which i assumed means no transacions are happening atm
1622 2011-02-13 06:01:04 <glassresistor> why would they close the market
1623 2011-02-13 06:02:13 <afed> heh
1624 2011-02-13 06:03:14 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
1625 2011-02-13 06:03:31 <dissipate_> a lot of bitcoin sites are going down for this reason or that reason
1626 2011-02-13 06:03:43 <dissipate_> coin pal went down for awhile due to fraud
1627 2011-02-13 06:03:50 <dissipate_> bit penny went down due to bandwidth issues
1628 2011-02-13 06:03:56 <dissipate_> coin market goes down for upgrades
1629 2011-02-13 06:04:11 <EvanR> for what its worth, those have only existed for last few days anyway
1630 2011-02-13 06:04:12 <dissipate_> bitcoin faucet was down  not too long ago for some reason i don't remember
1631 2011-02-13 06:04:35 <dissipate_> this is madness!
1632 2011-02-13 06:04:55 <EvanR> *shrug*
1633 2011-02-13 06:05:04 <EvanR> more koolaid!
1634 2011-02-13 06:05:30 bk128 has joined
1635 2011-02-13 06:05:33 bk128 has quit (Changing host)
1636 2011-02-13 06:05:33 bk128 has joined
1637 2011-02-13 06:05:59 <dissipate_> is this madness or is this Sparta?
1638 2011-02-13 06:06:15 <glassresistor> this site isn't down just says closed
1639 2011-02-13 06:09:24 <OneFixt> glassresistor: it just closes for the night, it'll be back tomorrow
1640 2011-02-13 06:09:29 <andrew12> hmm
1641 2011-02-13 06:09:31 <glassresistor> OneFixt: thanks
1642 2011-02-13 06:09:35 <OneFixt> np
1643 2011-02-13 06:09:40 <glassresistor> whys it close its the internet
1644 2011-02-13 06:09:41 fried_ has joined
1645 2011-02-13 06:09:43 <glassresistor> and night where?
1646 2011-02-13 06:09:45 <andrew12> what's the ati gpu that's the best for mining?
1647 2011-02-13 06:09:48 <OneFixt> that i don't know =)
1648 2011-02-13 06:10:05 <glassresistor> andrew12: the one with 800 stream proc
1649 2011-02-13 06:10:06 <OneFixt> andrew12 5970
1650 2011-02-13 06:10:09 <andrew12> that
1651 2011-02-13 06:10:20 <glassresistor> yeah that one
1652 2011-02-13 06:10:42 <glassresistor> although i couldn't find the opencl .so files for it that worked in linux
1653 2011-02-13 06:10:51 <glassresistor> but that might be becuase im an idiot
1654 2011-02-13 06:11:12 <glassresistor> ended up having to use nvidia \me wants to vomit
1655 2011-02-13 06:12:01 <andrew12> not sure if this is legit, but http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-ATI-RADEON-HD5970-hd-5970-graphics-card-nvidia-/290532841553?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item43a51b5851#ht_4192wt_970
1656 2011-02-13 06:12:07 <andrew12> $310
1657 2011-02-13 06:12:31 <andrew12> there's some others that are less than $400
1658 2011-02-13 06:15:21 <afed> http://freeweev.livejournal.com/1185.html
1659 2011-02-13 06:15:23 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1660 2011-02-13 06:15:49 <afed> everyone please donate
1661 2011-02-13 06:16:06 <afed> if they silence weev then we're all at risk
1662 2011-02-13 06:16:25 fried_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1663 2011-02-13 06:17:47 <dissipate_> afed, who is 'weev' and what happened to him?
1664 2011-02-13 06:18:06 <afed> ipad hacker
1665 2011-02-13 06:18:49 <afed> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/01/att-hack/
1666 2011-02-13 06:18:59 <afed> anyway he's taking bitcoins, we should support him just for that
1667 2011-02-13 06:23:17 <Kiba> not enough information to make a decision
1668 2011-02-13 06:25:34 <dissipate_> afed, just because someone accepts bitcoins doesn't mean we should send them bitcoins. :(
1669 2011-02-13 06:25:52 <afed> well make your own choice
1670 2011-02-13 06:26:00 <afed> based on his actions and whether you support them
1671 2011-02-13 06:26:02 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
1672 2011-02-13 06:26:12 <afed> but also consider that he has adopted and accepted bitcoins
1673 2011-02-13 06:26:26 <afed> he's throwing his lot in with us, we should stand with him too
1674 2011-02-13 06:26:35 dukeleto has joined
1675 2011-02-13 06:27:08 <dissipate_> just like Kiba said, not enough info for me to decide.
1676 2011-02-13 06:27:51 <andrew12> huh
1677 2011-02-13 06:28:02 <andrew12> why arent there any gpu miners written in C?
1678 2011-02-13 06:28:22 <midnightmagic_> there are.
1679 2011-02-13 06:28:29 <midnightmagic_> lots of them, if you believe their owners..
1680 2011-02-13 06:28:32 <dissipate_> andrew12, i think the popular ones are in python, could be wrong though.
1681 2011-02-13 06:28:45 <midnightmagic_> they're kept secret..
1682 2011-02-13 06:28:47 <andrew12> dissipate_: there's one in python and one in java
1683 2011-02-13 06:28:51 <afed> it doesn't matter one bit
1684 2011-02-13 06:29:12 <dissipate_> midnightmagic_, secret?
1685 2011-02-13 06:29:25 <andrew12> dissipate_: they keep them to themselves because they're greedy
1686 2011-02-13 06:29:26 <andrew12> :p
1687 2011-02-13 06:29:38 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: pretty much, yeah.
1688 2011-02-13 06:29:59 <midnightmagic_> dissipate: Art for example says he has some kind of CAL core that runs on his 5970s..
1689 2011-02-13 06:30:00 <dissipate_> for what purpose? is it some secret weapon?
1690 2011-02-13 06:30:05 `Jaka has joined
1691 2011-02-13 06:30:10 <andrew12> dissipate_: it's secret and superfast
1692 2011-02-13 06:30:25 <dissipate_> cool. more power to 'em.
1693 2011-02-13 06:30:44 <dissipate_> i don't mine, so no competition for me. :)
1694 2011-02-13 06:32:58 <jgarzik> andrew12: tcatm's oclminer is written in C.  it's based off of cpuminer.
1695 2011-02-13 06:33:47 Mango-chan has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1696 2011-02-13 06:33:59 Xunie has joined
1697 2011-02-13 06:33:59 Xunie has quit (Changing host)
1698 2011-02-13 06:33:59 Xunie has joined
1699 2011-02-13 06:34:01 <andrew12> jgarzik: oh right
1700 2011-02-13 06:34:24 Mango-chan has joined
1701 2011-02-13 06:34:28 `Jaka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1702 2011-02-13 06:37:56 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1703 2011-02-13 06:39:42 <phantomcircuit> irc.cpp:83            if (strLine.size() >= 9000)
1704 2011-02-13 06:39:51 <phantomcircuit> that should really be 510
1705 2011-02-13 06:40:24 <phantomcircuit> also the client should disconnect and put up a big giant ui warning
1706 2011-02-13 06:42:53 Xunie has quit (Quit: "You did become a terrorist when they sent her to your town." said Ange. "So I did," I said)
1707 2011-02-13 06:43:05 Xunie has joined
1708 2011-02-13 06:46:11 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: best file a github issue on that.
1709 2011-02-13 06:46:44 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, sure right after i finish exploiting it
1710 2011-02-13 06:47:09 <phantomcircuit> also the \r\n handling in irc.cpp could be used to forge irc server responses
1711 2011-02-13 06:49:09 <joe_1> whats the impact of the exploit
1712 2011-02-13 06:50:13 <andrew12> phantomcircuit: oooh, i wanna watch
1713 2011-02-13 06:50:22 <phantomcircuit> joe_1, potential for hilarity
1714 2011-02-13 06:50:36 <phantomcircuit> joe_1, no real threat
1715 2011-02-13 06:50:47 <phantomcircuit> although given that this is literally the first thing i've looked at
1716 2011-02-13 06:50:51 <phantomcircuit> it's not looking good
1717 2011-02-13 06:50:59 <joe_1> so you're basically auditing the code?
1718 2011-02-13 06:52:16 * joe_1 powers down bitcoin client until further notice
1719 2011-02-13 06:54:32 <afed> phantomcircuit: you should not discuss that here
1720 2011-02-13 06:54:51 <[Noodles]> why not, isn't this the -dev channel?
1721 2011-02-13 06:54:56 <andrew12> ^^
1722 2011-02-13 06:55:03 <phantomcircuit> afed, sure ill take it to #evilhackers
1723 2011-02-13 06:55:07 <phantomcircuit> that'll be better
1724 2011-02-13 06:55:24 <andrew12> you're not even in here
1725 2011-02-13 06:55:27 <andrew12> there*
1726 2011-02-13 06:56:37 Scootz has joined
1727 2011-02-13 06:57:09 <phantomcircuit> ah booo
1728 2011-02-13 06:57:30 <phantomcircuit> hybrid ircd shall protect from the hilarity of the \r\n parsing bug
1729 2011-02-13 06:58:37 devon_hillard has joined
1730 2011-02-13 07:00:48 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1731 2011-02-13 07:02:27 <Scootz> tcatm, you around?
1732 2011-02-13 07:02:48 <Scootz> or perhaps anyone familiar with oclminer?
1733 2011-02-13 07:04:24 <afed> lol
1734 2011-02-13 07:04:49 <Scootz> trying to get this to work with an nvidia geforce 8400gs.. it goes to getwork, pauses for 10-15 seconds.. then comes up with an error  HashMeter: 0.00 Mhash/sec (0.00)Error: clEnqueueReadBuffer failed. (clEnqueueReadBuffer)
1735 2011-02-13 07:05:36 <afed> odd
1736 2011-02-13 07:05:53 <afed> i don't have experience with that miner
1737 2011-02-13 07:06:10 <afed> did you try a different one, just for the sake of experimenting?
1738 2011-02-13 07:06:19 <Scootz> I can.
1739 2011-02-13 07:06:28 <Scootz> Andrew12 here is trying to get me to run one. :)
1740 2011-02-13 07:06:55 <andrew12> he couldn't get the poclbm to work; python was complaining
1741 2011-02-13 07:07:01 <afed> about what
1742 2011-02-13 07:07:18 <Scootz> i can pastebin the output
1743 2011-02-13 07:07:23 <andrew12> syntax errors
1744 2011-02-13 07:07:27 <andrew12> ohhh
1745 2011-02-13 07:07:29 <afed> i bet it says something about cl not importing
1746 2011-02-13 07:07:40 <andrew12> Scootz: try running it with python2 instead of just python
1747 2011-02-13 07:08:02 <afed> pastebin the errors please and what OS?
1748 2011-02-13 07:08:07 <andrew12> when you were installing python-jsonrpc
1749 2011-02-13 07:09:18 <andrew12> http://pastebin.com/6qNdVMVv - that's his error
1750 2011-02-13 07:09:30 <Scootz> thnx andrew :)
1751 2011-02-13 07:09:36 <Scootz> arch linux updated to latest.
1752 2011-02-13 07:10:30 <afed> does arch package python-jsonrpc?
1753 2011-02-13 07:10:38 <andrew12> nope
1754 2011-02-13 07:10:59 <afed> better check the prerequisites for python-jsonrpc
1755 2011-02-13 07:11:21 <afed> you might need to pull in more junk to get it to build right
1756 2011-02-13 07:11:30 <andrew12> i'm pretty sure the syntax error is because it's python2 code, and it was being run with python3
1757 2011-02-13 07:11:35 <afed> that error doesn't mak any sense to me, i am no python expert
1758 2011-02-13 07:11:42 <afed> hahahah yeah that'll fuck you up
1759 2011-02-13 07:11:44 <afed> install pythong
1760 2011-02-13 07:11:58 <Scootz> if i can figure out how to change it to python2.. i'll do that.
1761 2011-02-13 07:11:58 <andrew12> pythong?
1762 2011-02-13 07:12:04 <afed> python
1763 2011-02-13 07:12:09 <andrew12> Scootz: clyde -S python2
1764 2011-02-13 07:12:10 <Scootz> if its just a simple relinking to python2
1765 2011-02-13 07:12:11 <afed> python and python3 normally coexist
1766 2011-02-13 07:12:19 <afed> python2 and python3 normally coexist
1767 2011-02-13 07:12:26 <jgarzik> Scootz: "Works best on 5870/5970" http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3177.0
1768 2011-02-13 07:12:29 <Scootz> the /usr/bin/python links to python3.
1769 2011-02-13 07:12:38 <jgarzik> Scootz: oclminer on nvidia is probably new territory
1770 2011-02-13 07:12:39 <afed> python3 is not fully compatible with python 2
1771 2011-02-13 07:13:05 <afed> or it may be compatible but if the module is not adapted then it won't work right
1772 2011-02-13 07:13:07 <andrew12> Scootz: I don't suggest changing the link, just run stuff with 'python2' instead of 'python'
1773 2011-02-13 07:13:39 <jgarzik> afed: check out http://yyz.us/bitcoin/poold.py -- you don't need anything other than python standard library and a simple class
1774 2011-02-13 07:14:01 <jgarzik> no new pre-reqs besides standard python
1775 2011-02-13 07:14:15 <afed> jgarzik: to do what
1776 2011-02-13 07:14:38 <jgarzik> bitcoin JSON-RPC
1777 2011-02-13 07:14:51 <afed> o
1778 2011-02-13 07:15:38 <afed> anywya
1779 2011-02-13 07:15:45 <afed> should i buy a steering wheel for playing gta iv
1780 2011-02-13 07:16:56 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
1781 2011-02-13 07:16:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107785 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1078 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 20 hours, 26 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33273.69311579
1782 2011-02-13 07:23:07 <glassresistor> whats bitcoinmarket.com's opperating hours, looking at the transaction graph it looks like it closed between 3pm and 8am
1783 2011-02-13 07:23:16 <glassresistor> which seems weird
1784 2011-02-13 07:24:37 <glassresistor> but there faq is blank and i cant find any useful pages about there policys
1785 2011-02-13 07:24:42 <afed> there's no reason why that's necessary
1786 2011-02-13 07:24:51 <afed> if it seems suspicious to you, don't do business there
1787 2011-02-13 07:24:53 <glassresistor> ?
1788 2011-02-13 07:25:45 <glassresistor> its not suspicious, they are used by allot of people, mostly im just curious as to when i should except for them to say its open
1789 2011-02-13 07:31:51 <Scootz> i got the poclbm working. 1300khs for my gpu its reporting.
1790 2011-02-13 07:32:49 <[Noodles]> you sure that's your gpu?
1791 2011-02-13 07:34:00 <Scootz> yup. cpu usage is < 30%
1792 2011-02-13 07:34:25 <Scootz> when i run bitcoin generating by itself the cpu runs at 100%
1793 2011-02-13 07:34:32 <[Noodles]> what gpu is that?
1794 2011-02-13 07:34:40 <Scootz> geforce 8400gs
1795 2011-02-13 07:34:43 <Scootz> 512M
1796 2011-02-13 07:34:53 <[Noodles]> oh, ok ^.^
1797 2011-02-13 07:35:08 <Scootz> old card, but it does its job. for what I do.
1798 2011-02-13 07:35:18 <Scootz> i'm not much of a gamer.
1799 2011-02-13 07:35:29 <Mango-chan> http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-fake-money-saved-brazil < wow
1800 2011-02-13 07:35:34 <[Noodles]> just seemed a bit low, but for a 8400
1801 2011-02-13 07:35:47 <Scootz> my cpu gets a higher khs.
1802 2011-02-13 07:35:50 <[Noodles]> might get some more hashes using lower --frames
1803 2011-02-13 07:35:50 <Scootz> 2200 ish.
1804 2011-02-13 07:36:09 <[Noodles]> 30 is default, lower is faster
1805 2011-02-13 07:36:20 <Scootz> ah i'll try that.
1806 2011-02-13 07:36:21 <[Noodles]> but might cause more desktop-lag
1807 2011-02-13 07:36:30 <Scootz> its already lagging.
1808 2011-02-13 07:36:41 <Scootz> so say try 15?
1809 2011-02-13 07:36:44 <[Noodles]> higher frames=slower but less lag
1810 2011-02-13 07:36:51 <[Noodles]> sure, try
1811 2011-02-13 07:37:19 <[Noodles]> i set those that i don't need to work on the desktop to 5
1812 2011-02-13 07:37:31 <Scootz> what about using -v ?
1813 2011-02-13 07:37:39 <[Noodles]> depending what i do from 30-300 ^.^
1814 2011-02-13 07:38:01 <[Noodles]> guess -v doesnt make much difference on a 8400gs
1815 2011-02-13 07:38:35 <Scootz> 1350khs now.
1816 2011-02-13 07:39:57 <Scootz> using -v -f 15.. lol. drops to 900khs ish.
1817 2011-02-13 07:40:24 Syke has joined
1818 2011-02-13 07:40:26 <[Noodles]> better not use -v then :D
1819 2011-02-13 07:40:36 RazielZ has joined
1820 2011-02-13 07:41:05 <Scootz> better off using cpu instead of gpu
1821 2011-02-13 07:42:25 <[Noodles]> well, i doubt any of them is efficient enough to be profitable
1822 2011-02-13 07:42:41 <Scootz> not at these rates.
1823 2011-02-13 07:43:29 <Scootz> according to that one page that estimates 50%/95% completion of a block at 1000+ days.
1824 2011-02-13 07:44:08 <nevezen> don't think you'd be having that machine running for that long.. :-D
1825 2011-02-13 07:44:53 <[Noodles]> and it would take even longer anyway
1826 2011-02-13 07:49:45 <Scootz> thanks for the help/info/suggestions :)
1827 2011-02-13 07:50:01 <Scootz> i'm not even going to try using the gpu one.
1828 2011-02-13 07:50:05 <Scootz> just too slow.
1829 2011-02-13 08:17:08 malfy has joined
1830 2011-02-13 08:28:38 wrenny has joined
1831 2011-02-13 08:34:04 <lfm> Scootz: Ya i get max 1200 khash/s on my 8400gs also
1832 2011-02-13 08:34:27 <lfm> approx
1833 2011-02-13 08:36:15 <sipa> Scootz: gpu slower than cpu? what hardware do you have?
1834 2011-02-13 08:36:35 <sipa> oh i read it
1835 2011-02-13 08:36:49 <lfm> sipa gforce 8400gs it is like a $25 gpu card
1836 2011-02-13 08:36:57 <afed> a ripoff
1837 2011-02-13 08:37:08 <afed> i have a 5550 for $30 after rebate
1838 2011-02-13 08:37:11 <lfm> naw, its just cheap
1839 2011-02-13 08:37:17 <afed> 55000 khash
1840 2011-02-13 08:37:21 <lfm> and old
1841 2011-02-13 08:42:27 <lfm> normal 5550 price here is $85
1842 2011-02-13 08:43:26 <sipa> i never understood the term/practice rebate
1843 2011-02-13 08:43:32 <lfm> cheapest 5450 here is $50
1844 2011-02-13 08:43:33 <sipa> who is paying you for what?
1845 2011-02-13 08:44:16 <lfm> sipa they pay you for your mailing info and sometimes other survey info feedback
1846 2011-02-13 08:44:42 <sipa> ah
1847 2011-02-13 08:44:43 <sipa> and if you provide false information?
1848 2011-02-13 08:44:50 <lfm> marketing tool/gimick
1849 2011-02-13 08:45:02 <lfm> sipa most people are honest
1850 2011-02-13 08:45:08 <sipa> haha
1851 2011-02-13 08:45:40 <lfm> sipa how would you lie about your address, you wont get the cheque then
1852 2011-02-13 08:46:26 <sipa> ow i see
1853 2011-02-13 08:47:12 <wrenny> how long it take to see first coins after installing the client
1854 2011-02-13 08:47:29 <sipa> wrenny: the normal gui client?
1855 2011-02-13 08:47:30 <lfm> wrenny at what khash/s?
1856 2011-02-13 08:47:43 <wrenny> windows
1857 2011-02-13 08:47:49 <sipa> hate to disappoint you, but the answer is probably never
1858 2011-02-13 08:47:55 <wrenny> why
1859 2011-02-13 08:48:04 <wrenny> so why run it then
1860 2011-02-13 08:48:23 <sipa> to do transactions with it
1861 2011-02-13 08:48:26 <lfm> wrenny: a lot of people give up before they see anything
1862 2011-02-13 08:48:34 <joe_1> wrenny: client is for sending and receiving money. if you want to generate coins, download a bitcoin GPU miner
1863 2011-02-13 08:48:36 <sipa> it's a payment system, not a way to get free money
1864 2011-02-13 08:48:48 <lfm> wrenny: what cpu do you have?
1865 2011-02-13 08:48:54 <sipa> and indeed, on some GPU's it's still profitable
1866 2011-02-13 08:49:14 <ZenMondo> I am new to bitcoin tonight too already joined a mining pool
1867 2011-02-13 08:49:19 <wrenny> they said doesnt matter what processing power you have
1868 2011-02-13 08:49:22 <ZenMondo> and earned a penny
1869 2011-02-13 08:49:27 <wrenny> its distributed equally
1870 2011-02-13 08:49:39 <wrenny> the work
1871 2011-02-13 08:49:41 <[Noodles]> it is
1872 2011-02-13 08:49:43 <sipa> proportionally to your processing power, yes
1873 2011-02-13 08:49:48 <lfm> wrenny: any cpu works, faster cpu get more
1874 2011-02-13 08:49:50 <joe_1> wrenny: that's not right. who said that?
1875 2011-02-13 08:49:50 <sipa> so anyone can join
1876 2011-02-13 08:49:52 <[Noodles]> you just dont do much of the work
1877 2011-02-13 08:50:00 <[Noodles]> you need todo more to get coins quicker
1878 2011-02-13 08:50:01 <sipa> but a decent cpu does a few million hash per second
1879 2011-02-13 08:50:12 <sgornick> wrenny: have you gotten your freebie though ,,(bc,wiki freebitcoins)
1880 2011-02-13 08:50:13 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_faucet | 15 Jan 2011 ... URL: https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/. The bitcoin faucet will give out varying amount of bitcoins per visitor, depending on the amount of ...
1881 2011-02-13 08:50:14 <sipa> decent gpu's do a few hundred million hashes per second
1882 2011-02-13 08:50:49 <wrenny> this client has the option to 'Generate Coins'
1883 2011-02-13 08:50:54 <sipa> yes
1884 2011-02-13 08:50:57 <[Noodles]> true
1885 2011-02-13 08:51:02 <sipa> initially that was profitable
1886 2011-02-13 08:51:07 <wrenny> 0.3.19 beta
1887 2011-02-13 08:51:14 <lfm> my best cpu phenom X4 gets 11 mhash/s. my good gpu get 160 mhash/s
1888 2011-02-13 08:51:20 <sipa> and if you want to keep generating coins, please do so
1889 2011-02-13 08:51:33 <[Noodles]> it still is able to generate coins, it just takes a lot of time
1890 2011-02-13 08:51:35 <sipa> but it will probablt gain you less than the electricity it costs to keep it running
1891 2011-02-13 08:51:38 <sipa> probably
1892 2011-02-13 08:51:39 <sgornick> ;;bc,calc 11000
1893 2011-02-13 08:51:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 11000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 16 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 41 minutes, and 53 seconds
1894 2011-02-13 08:51:55 <joe_1> ;;bc,calc 160000
1895 2011-02-13 08:51:56 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 160000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 week, 1 day, 1 hour, 51 minutes, and 15 seconds
1896 2011-02-13 08:52:01 <wrenny> i have a quad core cpu and 2 Nvidia 9800 GTs
1897 2011-02-13 08:52:11 <[Noodles]> try the nvidias
1898 2011-02-13 08:52:18 <[Noodles]> they are much faster than your CPU
1899 2011-02-13 08:52:19 <sgornick> ;;bc,wiki mining hardware
1900 2011-02-13 08:52:20 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison | 8 Feb 2011 ... Below are some statistics about the mining performance of various hardware used in a mining rig. The GPU lists were originally compiled by ...
1901 2011-02-13 08:52:25 <sipa> 9800 GT is relatively good iirc
1902 2011-02-13 08:52:28 <wrenny> so I have to run 2 softwares?
1903 2011-02-13 08:52:43 <[Noodles]> to generate you only have to use a "miner"
1904 2011-02-13 08:52:45 <sipa> depends
1905 2011-02-13 08:52:48 <sgornick> ;;bc,calc 30360
1906 2011-02-13 08:52:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 30360 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 6 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 37 minutes, and 47 seconds
1907 2011-02-13 08:52:57 <sgornick> X 2 = 3 weeks.
1908 2011-02-13 08:53:02 <lfm> ok, if you get a gpu miner it might take you only a few weeks
1909 2011-02-13 08:53:09 <[Noodles]> connect that miner to a mining-pool and earn some bitcents a day
1910 2011-02-13 08:53:16 <sipa> indeed
1911 2011-02-13 08:53:31 <lfm> wrenny: the standard bitcoin client doesnt do gpu mining tho, only cpu
1912 2011-02-13 08:53:35 <sipa> the client (what you have now) is for doing transactions (although it can also mine on your cpu)
1913 2011-02-13 08:53:39 dissipate_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1914 2011-02-13 08:53:40 <wrenny> where do I download the miner
1915 2011-02-13 08:53:56 <[Noodles]> check the forum
1916 2011-02-13 08:54:10 <wrenny> so I keep running the current client?
1917 2011-02-13 08:54:14 <sgornick> ;;bc,wiki mining
1918 2011-02-13 08:54:15 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Mining | 24 Dec 2010 ... Mining bitcoins is the process of generating blocks for the block chain, which is a way of processing and verifying transactions. ...
1919 2011-02-13 08:54:15 <[Noodles]> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1334.0
1920 2011-02-13 08:54:30 <joe_1> why are nvidia's so much lower than AMD?
1921 2011-02-13 08:54:36 <[Noodles]> or this one http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2444.0
1922 2011-02-13 08:54:43 <[Noodles]> because nvidia sucks ^.^
1923 2011-02-13 08:54:52 <ZenMondo> Do you need the client running to receive transactions?
1924 2011-02-13 08:54:58 <[Noodles]> no
1925 2011-02-13 08:54:58 <sipa> no
1926 2011-02-13 08:55:10 <sipa> they are processed by the network even if you are offline
1927 2011-02-13 08:55:48 <sipa> wrenny: either you choose to mine on your own (i do not advise that), in which case you do run both a client and connect the miner to your own client
1928 2011-02-13 08:56:15 <sipa> the other option is to join a mining pool, which is a lot of miners together who split the profits to get frequent but smaller payouts
1929 2011-02-13 08:56:31 <lfm> pools suck, mine on your own
1930 2011-02-13 08:56:36 <[Noodles]> lol
1931 2011-02-13 08:56:37 <joe_1> so the nvidia miners are just as efficient, but the nvidia card just sucks that much worse than AMD, that the hash rates are only 1/10 of the AMD cards?
1932 2011-02-13 08:56:39 <sipa> in that case you do not need to run the client yourself
1933 2011-02-13 08:56:44 <sipa> joe_1: no
1934 2011-02-13 08:56:57 <sipa> although nvidia's cards are in general weaker than amd's
1935 2011-02-13 08:57:04 <[Noodles]> no, nvidia are not as efficient, they need much more power per hash
1936 2011-02-13 08:57:27 <lfm> nvidia still work, just not quite as efficient
1937 2011-02-13 08:57:38 <sipa> they have a different architecture which makes them less appropriate for mining
1938 2011-02-13 08:57:48 <joe_1> ok
1939 2011-02-13 08:58:00 <sipa> they favor less parallel floating point operations
1940 2011-02-13 08:58:17 <lfm> sipa floats are not used mining
1941 2011-02-13 08:58:20 <sipa> while amd is good for both fp and integer operations, particularly very parallel ones
1942 2011-02-13 08:58:38 <sipa> and mining purely depends on very parallel integer operations
1943 2011-02-13 08:58:48 <lfm> actually floats are relativly good on nvidia, just useless for bitcoin
1944 2011-02-13 08:58:53 <sipa> indeed
1945 2011-02-13 08:59:35 <wrenny> will it use both my gpus?
1946 2011-02-13 08:59:43 <lfm> it can yes
1947 2011-02-13 08:59:56 <sipa> are they in SLI?
1948 2011-02-13 09:00:01 <[Noodles]> depends on which miner you use
1949 2011-02-13 09:00:02 <lfm> and you can still do normal stuff while it run
1950 2011-02-13 09:01:03 <wrenny> sli yes
1951 2011-02-13 09:01:32 <sipa> not sure whether mining is support when sli is enabled
1952 2011-02-13 09:01:38 <wrenny> so you never win coins with just the normal client?
1953 2011-02-13 09:01:57 <Mango-chan> so
1954 2011-02-13 09:01:58 <[Noodles]> not never, but your chances arent that good
1955 2011-02-13 09:02:04 <Mango-chan> what would happen to the security of the bitcoin network
1956 2011-02-13 09:02:06 <sipa> there is a chance you will, but the chances are low
1957 2011-02-13 09:02:17 <sipa> wrenny: how fast is your cpu mining?
1958 2011-02-13 09:02:18 <Mango-chan> when the entire block chain is created
1959 2011-02-13 09:02:32 <sipa> "entire" ?
1960 2011-02-13 09:02:32 <wrenny> where do i see the speed?
1961 2011-02-13 09:02:37 <[Noodles]> that won't ever happen
1962 2011-02-13 09:02:42 <sipa> wrenny: left bottom of the client window
1963 2011-02-13 09:02:55 <Mango-chan> wait
1964 2011-02-13 09:02:57 <[Noodles]> the block-chain is never "entire", it's endless
1965 2011-02-13 09:02:59 <wrenny> 5074
1966 2011-02-13 09:03:03 <Mango-chan> when all 21 million bitcoins
1967 2011-02-13 09:03:05 <Mango-chan> are in generation
1968 2011-02-13 09:03:08 <Mango-chan> what are the incentives to mine?
1969 2011-02-13 09:03:12 <sipa> transactions fees
1970 2011-02-13 09:03:18 <sipa> they will take over much sooner
1971 2011-02-13 09:03:18 <Mango-chan> how come?
1972 2011-02-13 09:03:20 <[Noodles]> then blocks still have to be generated
1973 2011-02-13 09:03:33 <[Noodles]> or we cant transfer any coins anymore
1974 2011-02-13 09:03:47 <lfm> ;;bcmcalc 5074
1975 2011-02-13 09:03:47 <gribble> Error: "bcmcalc" is not a valid command.
1976 2011-02-13 09:03:54 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 5074 1w
1977 2011-02-13 09:03:55 <gribble> 0.0271087976841
1978 2011-02-13 09:03:56 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 5074
1979 2011-02-13 09:03:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5074 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 36 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 51 minutes, and 55 seconds
1980 2011-02-13 09:04:26 <wrenny> hah
1981 2011-02-13 09:04:27 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 5074 1
1982 2011-02-13 09:04:28 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5074 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 14 minutes and 6 seconds
1983 2011-02-13 09:04:29 <[Noodles]> without generation of blocks, bitcoin will die immediately
1984 2011-02-13 09:04:40 <sipa> wrenny: so with 5074 kHash/s, you have 2.7% chance of finding a block this week
1985 2011-02-13 09:04:55 <wrenny> and with my gpus?
1986 2011-02-13 09:05:05 <lfm> noodya but someone is and will always generate
1987 2011-02-13 09:05:07 <sipa> let's see
1988 2011-02-13 09:05:28 <[Noodles]> i'm sure about that, lfm
1989 2011-02-13 09:05:31 <Mango-chan> [Noodles]
1990 2011-02-13 09:05:33 <lfm> [Noodles]: ya but someone is and will always generate
1991 2011-02-13 09:05:34 <Mango-chan> or sipa
1992 2011-02-13 09:05:41 <Mango-chan> lfm
1993 2011-02-13 09:05:41 <Mango-chan> why?
1994 2011-02-13 09:05:48 <[Noodles]> why not?
1995 2011-02-13 09:05:49 <Mango-chan> what is this transaction fee
1996 2011-02-13 09:05:50 <lfm> greed I guess
1997 2011-02-13 09:06:04 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 60720 1w
1998 2011-02-13 09:06:05 <gribble> 0.280275137472
1999 2011-02-13 09:06:18 <[Noodles]> people will pay fees and generators will collect those fees
2000 2011-02-13 09:06:18 <sipa> wrenny: 28% every week
2001 2011-02-13 09:06:21 <lfm> Mango-chan: txn fees are currently optional, few people bother
2002 2011-02-13 09:07:03 <sipa> currently the subsidy (the 50 BTC reward for finding a block) is enough economical motivation for mining
2003 2011-02-13 09:07:07 <wrenny> ik
2004 2011-02-13 09:07:09 <wrenny> k
2005 2011-02-13 09:07:38 <sipa> wrenny: by the way, the difficulty goes up rather quickly, so it gets harder and harder to mine
2006 2011-02-13 09:07:48 <sipa> on the other hand, the exchange rate is also going up
2007 2011-02-13 09:07:51 <wrenny> its will definately take that long ot its a crap shoot
2008 2011-02-13 09:08:06 <sipa> ?
2009 2011-02-13 09:08:23 <lfm> if you want to be generous to the (greedy) miners that keep the net running you can add a command line option to pay a TXN fee with every txn like 0.01 or whatever you want
2010 2011-02-13 09:08:39 <[Noodles]> and besides the fees, there will be people owning coins and those people would probably like their coins to be worth something, so they keep generating, because if they don't, their coins would be worthless
2011 2011-02-13 09:08:57 <lfm> txn fees are paid by the sender
2012 2011-02-13 09:09:19 <wrenny> its will definately take that long or its a crap shoot ?  like you might get lucky
2013 2011-02-13 09:09:37 <sipa> wrenny: it could take a second or a year
2014 2011-02-13 09:09:41 <[Noodles]> you might get lucky and find a block today
2015 2011-02-13 09:09:44 <wrenny> so its luck
2016 2011-02-13 09:09:48 <sipa> yes
2017 2011-02-13 09:09:55 <wrenny> like the slots
2018 2011-02-13 09:10:02 <StevenCH> hi
2019 2011-02-13 09:10:04 <sipa> that's why mining pools exist
2020 2011-02-13 09:10:08 <StevenCH> newbie question
2021 2011-02-13 09:10:10 <StevenCH> why does it take so long to generate block 1077796 ?
2022 2011-02-13 09:10:13 <wrenny> ok
2023 2011-02-13 09:10:16 <lfm> wrenny: no you could be lucky or unlucky, you might get something right away or it might not come up for much longer (assuming you avoid the pools)
2024 2011-02-13 09:10:20 <sipa> StevenCH: probabilities :)
2025 2011-02-13 09:10:33 <wrenny> ill try the mining tutorial
2026 2011-02-13 09:10:40 <sipa> StevenCH: how long did it take already?
2027 2011-02-13 09:10:46 <StevenCH> 45 mins
2028 2011-02-13 09:11:01 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 160000000 45m
2029 2011-02-13 09:11:02 <gribble> 0.979118384915
2030 2011-02-13 09:11:13 <lfm> StevenCH: ther are random variations. like how many rolls of a pair of dice does it take to roll a 12?
2031 2011-02-13 09:11:26 <StevenCH> is took 50 mins. the block has just been generated
2032 2011-02-13 09:11:34 <sipa> 2.1% chance that it takes longer than 45 minutes, so nothing special
2033 2011-02-13 09:11:41 <[Noodles]> how often do you have to flip 32coins to make them all show heads?
2034 2011-02-13 09:11:42 <sipa> there have been much slower blocks
2035 2011-02-13 09:12:00 <StevenCH> didn t know that. thanks for the insight
2036 2011-02-13 09:12:11 <[Noodles]> sometimes it's just seconds
2037 2011-02-13 09:12:32 <[Noodles]> crazy shit
2038 2011-02-13 09:12:36 <StevenCH> isn t the unpredicable nature of the time it takes to generate a block an impediment for bitcoin adoption ?
2039 2011-02-13 09:12:39 <lfm> its just target average that is 10 minutes
2040 2011-02-13 09:12:57 <sipa> wrenny: mining pools essentially remove a part of the statistical variation inherent to mining
2041 2011-02-13 09:13:06 <[Noodles]> not really Steven, transactions are actually distributed instantly
2042 2011-02-13 09:13:07 <StevenCH> people prefer a reliable payment system i guess
2043 2011-02-13 09:13:22 <wrenny> ok
2044 2011-02-13 09:13:25 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 160000000 2h
2045 2011-02-13 09:13:26 <gribble> 0.99996693482
2046 2011-02-13 09:13:45 <lfm> StevenCH: it IS reliable, just not always fast
2047 2011-02-13 09:13:46 <sipa> the chance that it takes more than 2 hours is 0.00ee
2048 2011-02-13 09:13:53 <sipa> the chance that it takes more than 2 hours is 0.00331%
2049 2011-02-13 09:14:07 <wrenny> why does a simple transaction take so much processing power, I dont get it
2050 2011-02-13 09:14:25 <sipa> transactions don't take processing power
2051 2011-02-13 09:14:36 <lfm> wrenny: the TXN doesnt take the power, preventing cheating takes the power
2052 2011-02-13 09:14:45 <sipa> combining them into a block chain does (artificially slow)
2053 2011-02-13 09:14:48 <sipa> so
2054 2011-02-13 09:15:08 <wrenny> so the hashing is a record?
2055 2011-02-13 09:15:20 <sipa> record?
2056 2011-02-13 09:15:27 <wrenny> a trail
2057 2011-02-13 09:15:34 <lfm> ya kinda
2058 2011-02-13 09:15:42 <wrenny> reference
2059 2011-02-13 09:15:43 <sipa> it is a way of proving you spent work
2060 2011-02-13 09:15:45 <lfm> authentication trail
2061 2011-02-13 09:16:13 <sipa> and that gives trust, because noone can fake doing work
2062 2011-02-13 09:16:25 <wrenny> but its just money
2063 2011-02-13 09:16:38 <lfm> blasphemy! grin
2064 2011-02-13 09:16:47 <wrenny> numbers
2065 2011-02-13 09:16:50 <sipa> yes
2066 2011-02-13 09:17:02 <[Noodles]> just money?
2067 2011-02-13 09:17:07 <wrenny> anyone can just buy bitcoins too its not work
2068 2011-02-13 09:17:13 <[Noodles]> some people say there's nothing more important than money
2069 2011-02-13 09:17:19 <lfm> wrenny: you dont need to do it if you prefer not
2070 2011-02-13 09:17:36 <sipa> bitcoins are the balance resulting from transactions in the block chain
2071 2011-02-13 09:18:23 <wrenny> i understadn the concept not to pay fees or controled by the Gov
2072 2011-02-13 09:18:34 <wrenny> but not the work concept thing
2073 2011-02-13 09:18:37 <[Noodles]> there's no need for you to "Generate Coins", you can use bitcoins anyway, just buy them, or accept them for your services/goods
2074 2011-02-13 09:18:37 <lfm> wrenny: yes people can buy btc from people who will sell them but that balances out. the GENERATION of new ones has to be regulated somehow and this is how we do it in a distributed way
2075 2011-02-13 09:18:37 <genjix> luke-jr: you're on encyclopedia dramatica
2076 2011-02-13 09:18:42 <genjix> luke-jr: http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/1/16/SlowkingmantheNeoNaziPedo.png
2077 2011-02-13 09:19:03 <sipa> by making it hard to put things in the block chain, you prevent anyone with bad intentions from controlling the block chain
2078 2011-02-13 09:19:20 <wrenny> hm
2079 2011-02-13 09:20:02 <sipa> if more than 50% of the mining is done by hones nodes, it is very hard or impossible (as far as we know) for attackers to manipulate the block chain for their own purposes
2080 2011-02-13 09:20:17 <wrenny> so the gpu miner program will link to the other client and show increased khash/s?
2081 2011-02-13 09:20:37 <lfm> wrenny: yes
2082 2011-02-13 09:20:37 <sipa> it will show its own khash/s, independent from the client
2083 2011-02-13 09:20:42 <wrenny> so it will use both cpu adn gpu together?
2084 2011-02-13 09:20:56 <lfm> wrenny: yes, if you wish
2085 2011-02-13 09:20:59 <wrenny> but under one user
2086 2011-02-13 09:21:00 <sipa> you should't keep mining on your cpu, but yes
2087 2011-02-13 09:21:28 <lfm> if your power is free you should keep the cpu going too
2088 2011-02-13 09:21:31 <sipa> well, i can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do
2089 2011-02-13 09:21:35 <wrenny> ok so turn off Generate coins on the regular client
2090 2011-02-13 09:21:47 <sipa> i would suggest that yes
2091 2011-02-13 09:22:10 <wrenny> atm all 4 cores are 100%
2092 2011-02-13 09:22:17 <wrenny> on cpu
2093 2011-02-13 09:22:36 <lfm> yes generate make cpu 100% busy
2094 2011-02-13 09:22:51 <wrenny> no way to cut it down
2095 2011-02-13 09:23:06 <lfm> but gpu miners should leave cpu mostly idle
2096 2011-02-13 09:23:24 <wrenny> not sure that'll be worth it
2097 2011-02-13 09:23:29 <wrenny> my gpus get HOT
2098 2011-02-13 09:23:29 <lfm> turn off generate or generate on just some cores
2099 2011-02-13 09:23:40 <sipa> wrenny: then cool them down or underclock them
2100 2011-02-13 09:23:48 <wrenny> yea
2101 2011-02-13 09:23:51 <lfm> wrenny: make sure fans are working right
2102 2011-02-13 09:24:06 <Mango-chan> [01:16:43] <wrenny> not sure that'll be worth it
2103 2011-02-13 09:24:06 <Mango-chan> [01:16:48] <wrenny> my gpus get HOT
2104 2011-02-13 09:24:08 <Mango-chan> fix airflow
2105 2011-02-13 09:24:11 <wrenny> i could try that with evga percision
2106 2011-02-13 09:24:20 <Mango-chan> how hot is hot?
2107 2011-02-13 09:24:20 <wrenny> i have plenty of cooling
2108 2011-02-13 09:24:25 <lfm> vacuume dust out
2109 2011-02-13 09:24:33 <Mango-chan> mine are running 80c/70c 24/7
2110 2011-02-13 09:24:34 <wrenny> was just mentioning I know its will suck alot of powrer
2111 2011-02-13 09:24:57 <wrenny> I have a turbo fans helps alot
2112 2011-02-13 09:25:09 <wrenny> knocks 20C or more of the heat
2113 2011-02-13 09:25:12 <wrenny> off
2114 2011-02-13 09:25:31 <lfm> wrenny: should be fine if you keep the fans clean and running right
2115 2011-02-13 09:25:34 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2116 2011-02-13 09:25:47 <Mango-chan> i need a
2117 2011-02-13 09:25:53 <Mango-chan> room
2118 2011-02-13 09:25:56 <Mango-chan> for bitcoin
2119 2011-02-13 09:25:59 <wrenny> some of you using the gpu miner?
2120 2011-02-13 09:26:00 <Mango-chan> so i can just turn my fans on 100
2121 2011-02-13 09:26:03 <Mango-chan> yse
2122 2011-02-13 09:26:04 <Mango-chan> yes
2123 2011-02-13 09:26:12 <lfm> wrenny: yes
2124 2011-02-13 09:26:18 <sipa> yes
2125 2011-02-13 09:26:19 <wrenny> won any coins yet?
2126 2011-02-13 09:26:27 <lfm> yes
2127 2011-02-13 09:26:27 <sipa> many
2128 2011-02-13 09:26:28 <Mango-chan> 130
2129 2011-02-13 09:26:32 <Mango-chan> in like
2130 2011-02-13 09:26:33 <Mango-chan> 4 days
2131 2011-02-13 09:26:37 <wrenny> in how much time
2132 2011-02-13 09:26:46 <lfm> Mango-chan: ya turn fans on 100% if you like
2133 2011-02-13 09:26:55 <Mango-chan> yeah my tower is right next to me
2134 2011-02-13 09:26:56 <sipa> 870 in a few weeks
2135 2011-02-13 09:27:02 <Mango-chan> i don't want them to sound like
2136 2011-02-13 09:27:05 <Mango-chan> jet engines
2137 2011-02-13 09:27:15 <wrenny> those are worth about $1 each?
2138 2011-02-13 09:27:22 <[Noodles]> you dont like jets?
2139 2011-02-13 09:27:23 <Mango-chan> yes
2140 2011-02-13 09:27:24 <ZenMondo> I got a nickel
2141 2011-02-13 09:27:24 <sipa> currently yes
2142 2011-02-13 09:27:27 <Mango-chan> noodles i do
2143 2011-02-13 09:27:28 <sipa> but i can change
2144 2011-02-13 09:27:30 <wrenny> how hard to turn into real cash?
2145 2011-02-13 09:27:31 <Mango-chan> but i don't like sitting next to one
2146 2011-02-13 09:27:38 <Mango-chan> not hard if someone wants them
2147 2011-02-13 09:27:39 <[Noodles]> :D
2148 2011-02-13 09:27:43 <lfm> Mango-chan: monitor temps then and set them to what you can stand. if too noisy UNDERCLOCK to let them run slower
2149 2011-02-13 09:27:45 <sipa> wrenny: www.mtgox.com www.bitcoin-central.net
2150 2011-02-13 09:27:50 <Mango-chan> lfm
2151 2011-02-13 09:27:52 <Mango-chan> i do
2152 2011-02-13 09:27:53 <Mango-chan> 40%
2153 2011-02-13 09:27:57 <joe_1> what i do is sink the whole tower into a pool of liquid nitrogen, and overclock the gpu's 10 times. 10 ghash/s yeah
2154 2011-02-13 09:27:57 <Mango-chan> running at 80c/70c
2155 2011-02-13 09:28:02 <wrenny> i saw site that said they would put the $$ onto a Credit card
2156 2011-02-13 09:28:08 <sipa> joe_1: lol
2157 2011-02-13 09:28:12 <lfm> joe_1: wtg
2158 2011-02-13 09:28:15 <Mango-chan> joe_1 it'll melt.
2159 2011-02-13 09:28:24 <sipa> Mango-chan: he's not serious
2160 2011-02-13 09:28:37 <Mango-chan> (liquid nitrogen can't melt stuff)
2161 2011-02-13 09:28:40 <wrenny> sipa what are your hardware specs?
2162 2011-02-13 09:28:52 <sipa> wrenny: 2 ati 5970's
2163 2011-02-13 09:28:54 xelister has joined
2164 2011-02-13 09:28:55 <wrenny> mining pool?
2165 2011-02-13 09:29:08 Bth8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2166 2011-02-13 09:29:13 <lfm> wrenny: ya they sell you a prepaid $50 or $100 credit card for bitcoins you give them
2167 2011-02-13 09:29:32 <wrenny> ok
2168 2011-02-13 09:29:39 <sipa> yes, i like the pool for the statistics and no panicking like "ahhh two days and no blocks found!"
2169 2011-02-13 09:30:01 <wrenny> ill definately try the gpu miner
2170 2011-02-13 09:30:37 <wrenny> turn the heat off in the house and let the PC warm up the house then
2171 2011-02-13 09:30:41 <wrenny> hah
2172 2011-02-13 09:30:50 <xelister> sipa: Im starting to less pools less and less
2173 2011-02-13 09:31:04 <xelister> for the -2% .. -10%  (and tx fees bonus) we take
2174 2011-02-13 09:31:11 <sipa> like?
2175 2011-02-13 09:31:14 <xelister> and for the "sorry we are offline now"
2176 2011-02-13 09:31:30 <xelister> sipa: now slush miner requires 2% donation or it DISCONNECT YOU and you mine NOTHING untill you notice
2177 2011-02-13 09:31:45 <xelister> and penny miner afair wants 10% or something
2178 2011-02-13 09:31:45 <sipa> yes, i know, as a temporary measure
2179 2011-02-13 09:32:08 <joe_1> well, there is the possibility of lowering the block rate to every 5 minutes, or 2 minutes
2180 2011-02-13 09:32:20 <joe_1> but it was met with some opposition
2181 2011-02-13 09:32:20 <xelister> sipa: I last 5 BTC because I was bussy heaving sex and heaving real life ;) instead of monitoring constantly miner output for the error message about need to set 2% on web page...
2182 2011-02-13 09:32:30 <sipa> haha
2183 2011-02-13 09:32:35 <[Noodles]> it doesnt "want 10%", it's payout is 90% of your averages
2184 2011-02-13 09:32:43 <xelister> not that this is much, but this is like 20% of what I already mine in pool.. so... ;)
2185 2011-02-13 09:32:53 <xelister> (I almost always mined pool-less)
2186 2011-02-13 09:33:08 <sipa> but i believe mining pools are the only way end-user mining can remain economically meaningful
2187 2011-02-13 09:33:18 <sipa> so i like to support the idea :)
2188 2011-02-13 09:33:29 <[Noodles]> we need more pools
2189 2011-02-13 09:33:37 <[Noodles]> a lot
2190 2011-02-13 09:33:45 <xelister> [Noodles]: big difference... or not.  You just mine 10% slower then expected, and 2% slower (or less depending on pool perforamnce/luck/attack) in Slush
2191 2011-02-13 09:33:46 <[Noodles]> every community should have its own pool
2192 2011-02-13 09:33:48 <Diablo-D3> interesting...
2193 2011-02-13 09:33:51 <Diablo-D3> I upgraded to 11.1
2194 2011-02-13 09:33:56 <Diablo-D3> and minign still works fine for me
2195 2011-02-13 09:34:18 <sipa> too many pools won't work
2196 2011-02-13 09:34:42 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 26000000 1w
2197 2011-02-13 09:34:43 <gribble> 1
2198 2011-02-13 09:34:56 <[Noodles]> too many? we only got one now
2199 2011-02-13 09:35:00 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 2600000 1w
2200 2011-02-13 09:35:01 <gribble> 0.999999234507
2201 2011-02-13 09:35:04 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 2600000 1d
2202 2011-02-13 09:35:05 <gribble> 0.866255070932
2203 2011-02-13 09:35:06 <[Noodles]> and there's need for more
2204 2011-02-13 09:35:12 <sipa> sure, some more
2205 2011-02-13 09:35:15 <sipa> but not hundreds
2206 2011-02-13 09:35:35 <[Noodles]> the bigger the network grows, the more pools are useful
2207 2011-02-13 09:35:40 <sipa> no
2208 2011-02-13 09:35:45 <[Noodles]> yes
2209 2011-02-13 09:36:15 <[Noodles]> single pools are single points of failure, besides that, lots of users cause lots of traffic, which causes connection probs to the pool
2210 2011-02-13 09:36:31 <sipa> the profit is always 144 blocks per day (or a bit more)
2211 2011-02-13 09:36:41 <[Noodles]> the profit doesnt matter
2212 2011-02-13 09:36:52 <sipa> the number of blocks does
2213 2011-02-13 09:36:58 <[Noodles]> that should always be about the same
2214 2011-02-13 09:37:04 <sipa> the value of a bitcoin can become very high
2215 2011-02-13 09:37:35 <sipa> but the frequency of payouts a pool can do depends on how many blocks it finds (regardless of how much they are worth)
2216 2011-02-13 09:37:54 <[Noodles]> sure, but time will come, that even slush pool will have problems to find a block a day
2217 2011-02-13 09:38:00 <sipa> indeed
2218 2011-02-13 09:38:01 <[Noodles]> at 50Ghash/s
2219 2011-02-13 09:38:07 <[Noodles]> then what?
2220 2011-02-13 09:38:18 <joe_1> the pool should pay off whenever you find work and absorb the risk of when the block will actually be found
2221 2011-02-13 09:38:18 <[Noodles]> accepting more workers will overload the server
2222 2011-02-13 09:38:28 <[Noodles]> so we need more servers==more pools
2223 2011-02-13 09:38:42 <sipa> no we need a more efficient pool mining protocol :)
2224 2011-02-13 09:38:42 <[Noodles]> even if they just create 1blocvk a day
2225 2011-02-13 09:38:48 <[Noodles]> lol
2226 2011-02-13 09:38:53 <sipa> or a way to combine multiple servers
2227 2011-02-13 09:38:57 <[Noodles]> and keep slush as the only one
2228 2011-02-13 09:39:00 <[Noodles]> all power in one hand
2229 2011-02-13 09:39:06 <sipa> i'm not saying that
2230 2011-02-13 09:39:15 <sipa> i want some pools
2231 2011-02-13 09:39:15 <[Noodles]> that's a great idea for a distributed network
2232 2011-02-13 09:39:32 <[Noodles]> all power in few hands
2233 2011-02-13 09:39:36 <[Noodles]> not much better
2234 2011-02-13 09:39:42 <sipa> unfortunately yes
2235 2011-02-13 09:39:50 <sipa> but it's an equilibrium
2236 2011-02-13 09:40:02 <sipa> people will join pools as much as they trust pool owners
2237 2011-02-13 09:40:11 <sipa> so you need some pools to create competition
2238 2011-02-13 09:40:25 <[Noodles]> that's why i mentioned community-pools
2239 2011-02-13 09:40:49 * sipa wishes he had time for a P2P pool miner :)
2240 2011-02-13 09:41:17 <[Noodles]> they don't need to be that big and probably don't need to operate in profit
2241 2011-02-13 09:41:26 <sipa> indeed
2242 2011-02-13 09:41:35 <[Noodles]> just spread the load
2243 2011-02-13 09:42:36 <[Noodles]> i'd like to create a SL-pool, SL-Residents often have nice gfx-cards that they only use when they're in-world
2244 2011-02-13 09:42:57 <sipa> SL?
2245 2011-02-13 09:43:04 <sipa> ah, second life
2246 2011-02-13 09:43:05 <[Noodles]> SecondLife
2247 2011-02-13 09:43:09 <sipa> does that still exist?
2248 2011-02-13 09:43:15 <ZenMondo> I'd sign up
2249 2011-02-13 09:43:16 <[Noodles]> it sure does
2250 2011-02-13 09:43:42 <[Noodles]> gets worse with every update, but still exists ^.^
2251 2011-02-13 09:44:24 <ZenMondo> In fact I came to bitcoin because it was mentioned in a group in Second Life and I see its potential to be an interoperable currency for use in virtual worlds.
2252 2011-02-13 09:44:33 <xelister> I wonder would anyone buy access to pro miner - e.g. yoy pay some constant fee like 100 BTC once, and then you get admin panel for own pool group and get there 99% + TX bonuses (so even like 101% of 50 btc/block :P) and attacks by otehrs do not affect you at all (and still you have option to pool your group with other groups to  have more smooth output in the begining where your group hashpower is not yet that big)
2253 2011-02-13 09:44:39 <xelister> *you
2254 2011-02-13 09:44:49 <xelister> ZenMondo: cool
2255 2011-02-13 09:44:58 <ZenMondo> So I am here to learn
2256 2011-02-13 09:46:23 <ZenMondo> and since bitcoin is open source my idea is to integrate a bitcoin wallet manager with a virtual world client. And create second life objects that can vend goods using bitcoin. Not sure how to do the second one yet but am pondering.
2257 2011-02-13 09:47:28 <[Noodles]> second part is not that hard, do a simple http_request in lsl
2258 2011-02-13 09:49:48 <[Noodles]> that's what my HUD does, you send bitcoins and in-world object pays you L$
2259 2011-02-13 09:49:50 <xelister> sounds like cool idea, ZenMondo
2260 2011-02-13 09:50:10 JStoker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2261 2011-02-13 09:50:11 <[Noodles]> in-world object could also give you it's content instead
2262 2011-02-13 09:50:15 <ZenMondo> well a vendor has to be more robust than just taking money. :)
2263 2011-02-13 09:50:58 <[Noodles]> taking money, taking item, what's the difference?
2264 2011-02-13 09:52:32 * xelister is growingly dissatisfied with slush miner
2265 2011-02-13 09:52:59 <xelister> I changed treshold to 1.00 BTC, I have 4.7 confirmed, and still waiting for payout
2266 2011-02-13 09:53:07 <bd_> xelister: Why should anyone donate CPU time to these 'pro miners'?
2267 2011-02-13 09:53:10 <xelister> also the table with workers is broken
2268 2011-02-13 09:53:16 <xelister> bd_: better gpu, not cpu
2269 2011-02-13 09:53:34 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2270 2011-02-13 09:53:39 <xelister> bd_: pro pools. To get smaller rewards more smoothly. You know how pools work overall?
2271 2011-02-13 09:53:50 <bd_> xelister: Same thing. Why should I allocate my hardware and spend my electricity on these 'pro miners' who paid 100 BTC to the pool operator?
2272 2011-02-13 09:54:56 <[Noodles]> and is that conastnat or once 100BTC
2273 2011-02-13 09:54:57 <xelister> well this is for people that can organize big network of miner and pay them a bit in smooth way, but do not want to write theire own pool
2274 2011-02-13 09:55:03 <[Noodles]> *constant
2275 2011-02-13 09:55:23 <xelister> [Noodles]: 100 BTC to get own group and panel - for owners of many small miners
2276 2011-02-13 09:55:27 <xelister> or, other idea
2277 2011-02-13 09:55:34 <bd_> xelister: Ah, so you own your miners.
2278 2011-02-13 09:55:35 <xelister> pool that gives you 99% of earned money
2279 2011-02-13 09:55:41 <[Noodles]> interesting
2280 2011-02-13 09:55:45 <bd_> You don't need to pool then. Just have all the miners send you their funds.
2281 2011-02-13 09:55:57 <xelister> instead of 98%-tx (so ~97% now?)  and instead of 90%
2282 2011-02-13 09:56:08 JStoker has joined
2283 2011-02-13 09:56:26 <[Noodles]> but then again theres all the power in one (your) hand
2284 2011-02-13 09:56:32 <xelister> bd_: but if you want to gratify your small miners, e.g. you more like organize them not fully own them, or if you just want better controll and statistics, then you need a pool
2285 2011-02-13 09:56:35 <[Noodles]> the power of lots of pools
2286 2011-02-13 09:57:05 <bd_> xelister: If you're just organizing them, then what incentive do their owners have to give you virtually all of their block generation fees?
2287 2011-02-13 09:57:16 <xelister> yeah, lonelly person with not-so-strong one miner, would choose the no-payment and 99% option probably
2288 2011-02-13 09:57:17 <bd_> xelister: And, stats can be done by an appropriate opensource tool.
2289 2011-02-13 09:57:50 <xelister> bd_: everything can be done, even one can write own pool and/or miner, but it is a question of time and effort
2290 2011-02-13 09:57:55 <bd_> xelister: what do you mean by 'no-payment and 99% option'? 99% of _everyone else_'s stuff?
2291 2011-02-13 09:58:36 <[Noodles]> 99% of his expected calculated averages
2292 2011-02-13 09:58:47 TD_ has joined
2293 2011-02-13 09:58:48 <xelister> lonelly user would be getting 99% of blocks he helped to generate, like in Slush miner but 99%+tx (so effictevly probably like 100% or 101%) not 98%
2294 2011-02-13 09:58:53 <bd_> then I don't understand what this pro stuff does
2295 2011-02-13 09:59:31 <xelister> what is recently average worth of 1 block, including tx fees? 51 btc?
2296 2011-02-13 09:59:44 <[Noodles]> 50btc
2297 2011-02-13 10:00:01 <xelister> [Noodles]: 50.00 ?  but the tx fees bonus
2298 2011-02-13 10:00:15 <[Noodles]> i'm generating since may and only got 3fees of 0.02, 0.03, and 0.01
2299 2011-02-13 10:00:24 <[Noodles]> generated a few hundred blocks
2300 2011-02-13 10:00:31 <[Noodles]> so the average fee is 0.00
2301 2011-02-13 10:00:31 <xelister> oh, so it is still a small number
2302 2011-02-13 10:00:42 <xelister> yeah but I expect it role will increase in future
2303 2011-02-13 10:00:48 <[Noodles]> in a far future
2304 2011-02-13 10:00:50 <xelister> to people setting 0.01 btc per tx
2305 2011-02-13 10:01:06 <bd_> xelister: perhaps. but again, what's this pro thing? Just a management tool for if you own a lot of miners?
2306 2011-02-13 10:01:21 <xelister> are you sure its far future? pool miners generate 50 transactions per block it would seem (since people use 1.00 btc payout treshold)
2307 2011-02-13 10:01:34 <xelister> bd_: yeah that was the idea
2308 2011-02-13 10:01:43 <bd_> xelister: pool miners can decide to pay no TX fees on their own transactions when they include them in a block
2309 2011-02-13 10:01:52 <xelister> bd_: writting own good pool is like 200 .. 2000 btc depending on how advanced
2310 2011-02-13 10:02:20 <xelister> bd_: yeap but that will change with more pools and clusters around
2311 2011-02-13 10:02:32 <xelister> pool must pay cluster to get fees out fast and viceversa
2312 2011-02-13 10:02:40 <xelister> but yeah hard to estimate that
2313 2011-02-13 10:02:54 <bd_> xelister: On the other hand, they don't gain any funds until they generate a block.
2314 2011-02-13 10:03:00 <[Noodles]> i wouldn't count on fees for a few more months, or years, fees won't even cover the bw-costs of a pool
2315 2011-02-13 10:03:16 <bd_> So any pool which generates so infrequently that they can't get fees out, is also somewhat useless as a pool
2316 2011-02-13 10:04:00 <[Noodles]> ask slush how many in fees he got so far, or Art
2317 2011-02-13 10:04:14 <[Noodles]> guess they got some numbers
2318 2011-02-13 10:04:16 <afed> yeah one of my miners found another block
2319 2011-02-13 10:04:19 <afed> YOU ARE ALL WELCOME
2320 2011-02-13 10:04:26 <[Noodles]> congrats
2321 2011-02-13 10:04:49 <afed> slush needs to turn the hall of fame back on whenver he gets back from his six month vacation
2322 2011-02-13 10:05:01 <xelister> vacation? ;)
2323 2011-02-13 10:05:40 <afed> yeah i guess it's not a vacation if you are travelling the world indefinitely on your bitcoin riches
2324 2011-02-13 10:06:09 <ZenMondo> well I have been hashing for a pool for about 5 hours. Have earned a nickel. A penny an hour.  Slave wage.
2325 2011-02-13 10:06:42 <[Noodles]> former business class renamed to bitcoin class?
2326 2011-02-13 10:06:52 <joe_1> why not buy 100 coins? you'll be rich in 2 years
2327 2011-02-13 10:08:00 <nanotube> ZenMondo: yea, a penny an hour, but you didn't actually have to labor for those 5 hours. :)
2328 2011-02-13 10:08:14 <xelister> ZenMondo: are you doing it by hand ;) put a good GPU on it
2329 2011-02-13 10:08:32 <xelister> ZenMondo: also, good idea is to actually /buy/ the bitcoins
2330 2011-02-13 10:08:44 <ZenMondo> I'd rather earn them
2331 2011-02-13 10:08:58 <xelister> yes - ot provide services for BTC
2332 2011-02-13 10:09:00 <xelister> *or
2333 2011-02-13 10:09:10 <xelister> e.g. offer some stuff in 2nd life or whatever, and get paid in BTC
2334 2011-02-13 10:09:20 <ZenMondo> Thats my plan
2335 2011-02-13 10:09:45 <ZenMondo> I thought maybe trading a currency fro another game for BTC
2336 2011-02-13 10:10:10 jav has joined
2337 2011-02-13 10:14:00 <wumpus> what game? we wouldn't want to make blizzard angry do we? :)
2338 2011-02-13 10:14:18 <ZenMondo> Kingdom of Loathing
2339 2011-02-13 10:14:28 <ZenMondo> But I don't know what the meat market is like
2340 2011-02-13 10:15:45 <ZenMondo> I sold a metric assload about 5 years ago for over $300 and bought parts for my computer
2341 2011-02-13 10:16:02 <wumpus> KoL looks funny, didn't know about that game yet
2342 2011-02-13 10:16:23 <ZenMondo> Oh it is hilarious but I have not played in about 3 years
2343 2011-02-13 10:16:52 <ZenMondo> I still have a lot of meat so I thought about maybe putting it up for Bidpool as an experiment
2344 2011-02-13 10:23:58 noagendamarket has joined
2345 2011-02-13 10:31:11 <nevezen> eve online :)
2346 2011-02-13 10:31:21 <nevezen> that would make them angry :)
2347 2011-02-13 10:31:25 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2348 2011-02-13 10:31:52 jav has quit (Quit: leaving)
2349 2011-02-13 10:33:13 <xelister> noobuntu kicks the fuck itself
2350 2011-02-13 10:33:19 <xelister> kills too
2351 2011-02-13 10:33:48 <nevezen> go back to the roots
2352 2011-02-13 10:33:52 <nevezen> debian
2353 2011-02-13 10:33:57 <xelister> ubuntu is able of randomly  shutting down own sshd (untill forced-restarted, due to some wired bug), and randomly not allowing to boot (with No more disk random errors
2354 2011-02-13 10:33:58 <nevezen> or gentoo
2355 2011-02-13 10:34:01 <xelister> :{
2356 2011-02-13 10:34:03 <xelister> yeah I should
2357 2011-02-13 10:39:45 TheAncientGoat has joined
2358 2011-02-13 10:42:18 <joe_1> phantomcircuit: have you found anything yet?
2359 2011-02-13 10:51:40 rasengan has quit (Quit: leaving)
2360 2011-02-13 10:52:39 <xelister> anyone has graph with diff history?
2361 2011-02-13 11:01:36 bitcoiner has joined
2362 2011-02-13 11:02:51 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2363 2011-02-13 11:09:46 heretic_ has joined
2364 2011-02-13 11:09:51 larsivi has joined
2365 2011-02-13 11:10:03 <heretic_> hello world!
2366 2011-02-13 11:11:26 <xelister> 5770 @ 940 MHz (stock=850).   Temperture jumpst 72..76 each 2 seconds (e.g  5 C jump / second).  This looks fine?  Dont want to try my card
2367 2011-02-13 11:11:31 * xelister pokes ArtForz with a question mark
2368 2011-02-13 11:11:56 <heretic_> anybody home? Somobody?
2369 2011-02-13 11:12:00 <xelister> heretic_: yea
2370 2011-02-13 11:12:50 <heretic_> i have a couple of questions, can someone help me?
2371 2011-02-13 11:13:03 <sipa> don't ask to ask, just ask :)
2372 2011-02-13 11:13:53 <heretic_> ok! Can you tell me is there a way to create my own bitcoins?
2373 2011-02-13 11:13:58 <sipa> there is
2374 2011-02-13 11:14:26 <heretic_> i mean if they dont be related with bitcoin system, my own e-currency for example?
2375 2011-02-13 11:14:30 <sipa> oh
2376 2011-02-13 11:14:55 <sipa> well, yes, you can patch the bitcoin source code of course to make something very comparable
2377 2011-02-13 11:15:02 <sipa> but why would you do so?
2378 2011-02-13 11:15:34 <heretic_> i have a project to realize, i just need my own payment system just like bitcoin, so where i can find details about this?
2379 2011-02-13 11:16:05 <joe_1> in your project, how many people will be running bitcoin clients?
2380 2011-02-13 11:16:34 <joe_1> and does your project require a decentralized network?
2381 2011-02-13 11:17:12 <heretic_> no i want users to generate this coins for the system
2382 2011-02-13 11:17:34 <heretic_> the value of each bitcoin will be growing slowly
2383 2011-02-13 11:17:56 <heretic_> so where i can find instructions for creating my own system? anybody?
2384 2011-02-13 11:18:00 <joe_1> it can be done, but the value of the bitcoins under your system will not have any value.
2385 2011-02-13 11:18:06 <sipa> they can
2386 2011-02-13 11:18:15 <sipa> but i'm not sure how you will control that
2387 2011-02-13 11:18:52 <heretic_> the value of each bitcoin will be from other source
2388 2011-02-13 11:19:06 <sipa> please don't call it bitcoin :)
2389 2011-02-13 11:19:20 <heretic_> ok "mycoin"
2390 2011-02-13 11:19:27 <sipa> fair enough
2391 2011-02-13 11:19:36 <sipa> what will it derive value fron?
2392 2011-02-13 11:20:01 <joe_1> he wants people to generate coins for some other thing, and he'll back each coin
2393 2011-02-13 11:20:34 <heretic_> Can you help me to find any details how i can start my own system. Yes it is exactly what i am talking about, i alrady have the value, i just need to connect with with "mycoin" system
2394 2011-02-13 11:20:45 <xelister> heretic_: well you can take the bitcoin, rename it, and setup own genesis block
2395 2011-02-13 11:20:50 <xelister> and that should be it probably
2396 2011-02-13 11:21:04 <sipa> i don't think there are instructions
2397 2011-02-13 11:21:26 <joe_1> in fact a genesis block is not necessary to the operation of bitcoin
2398 2011-02-13 11:21:33 <sipa> no?
2399 2011-02-13 11:21:48 <heretic_> it is just a torrent tracker right? I can create my own torrent tracker and begin sharing, does the program on their site allow this to creat my own "mycoins" system?
2400 2011-02-13 11:21:51 <joe_1> the genesis block points to prevhash=0.
2401 2011-02-13 11:21:54 <xelister> joe_1: clients will verify chains starting from it, no?
2402 2011-02-13 11:22:12 <joe_1> theoretically bitcoin can be re-written to verify chains starting from the imaginary block that has prevhash=0.
2403 2011-02-13 11:22:18 <xelister> heretic_: bitcoin is not a torrent tracker... it has nothing to do with torrents
2404 2011-02-13 11:22:41 <bitcoiner> p2p
2405 2011-02-13 11:22:43 <heretic_> i understand it is not torrent tracker xelister, i bring it for example!!
2406 2011-02-13 11:22:46 <sipa> "their site" which site?
2407 2011-02-13 11:22:49 <xelister> joe_1: they already verfy blocks. You say not from genesis? then from where
2408 2011-02-13 11:22:53 <heretic_> bitcoin.org
2409 2011-02-13 11:23:01 <sipa> heretic_: p2p is far more general than file sharing or bittorrent
2410 2011-02-13 11:23:27 <joe_1> xe: from an imaginary block with hash = 0
2411 2011-02-13 11:23:42 <xelister> I thought that block is called genesis..
2412 2011-02-13 11:23:47 <sipa> it just means there is no client/server model and all participants are equal
2413 2011-02-13 11:23:51 <joe_1> no, genesis is the block on top of that block, it has prevhash=0
2414 2011-02-13 11:23:57 <sipa> joe_1 is right
2415 2011-02-13 11:24:14 <xelister> joe_1: ah ok. so why is genesis blocks hardcoded into sources (is it?)
2416 2011-02-13 11:24:20 <sipa> it is
2417 2011-02-13 11:24:23 <ArtForz> simple
2418 2011-02-13 11:24:33 <bitcoiner> will this gpu mining change the future of bitcoins ?
2419 2011-02-13 11:24:44 <sipa> bitcoiner: it already has, i think :)
2420 2011-02-13 11:24:47 <ArtForz> otherwise I can create a genesis block with timestamp = really_old
2421 2011-02-13 11:24:59 <heretic_> also please tell me how much money i can generate if i leave my computer on 24/7 for 1 months period?
2422 2011-02-13 11:25:02 <ArtForz> so if I can overtake the main chain, I can give myself $LARGENUM of blocks
2423 2011-02-13 11:25:09 <sipa> heretic_: what hardware?
2424 2011-02-13 11:25:34 <xelister> heretic_: in bitcoin system?  on "mycoin" it is not possible to tell... well, as much money as others will be willing to pay to get this coins
2425 2011-02-13 11:25:39 <heretic_> p4, motherboard asus p4p800 2400cpu
2426 2011-02-13 11:25:45 <joe_1> artforz: but i could start doing that from on top of the genesis block in the current system.
2427 2011-02-13 11:25:50 <ArtForz> no you cant
2428 2011-02-13 11:25:55 <heretic_> i mean in bitcoin system
2429 2011-02-13 11:26:00 <xelister> bitcoin has some economy and users behind it, this is why it has more value the collecting cans
2430 2011-02-13 11:26:00 <ArtForz> blocks cant have nTime earlier than genesis
2431 2011-02-13 11:26:01 <sipa> heretic_: not much
2432 2011-02-13 11:26:14 <heretic_> can you give an aproximately number?
2433 2011-02-13 11:26:39 <xelister> heretic_: on 250 USD video card - around 100-150 USD in 1-2 months (and later it will be slower and slower per month)
2434 2011-02-13 11:26:48 <RazielZ> Wat
2435 2011-02-13 11:26:51 <RazielZ> But
2436 2011-02-13 11:26:56 <RazielZ> ...where do I botain this GPU client?
2437 2011-02-13 11:27:02 <xelister> assuming diff increase will stay similar to now,  and that value of BTC/USD will remain similar
2438 2011-02-13 11:27:02 <RazielZ> Video Card: ATI Radeon HD 4870 X2
2439 2011-02-13 11:27:03 <joe_1> art: true. but i don't understand why using a much older nTime for your genesis block helps you in your goal of overtaking the real chain?
2440 2011-02-13 11:27:06 <sipa> RazielZ: read the forum or the wiki
2441 2011-02-13 11:27:12 <ArtForz> joe_1: it doesnt help in overtaking
2442 2011-02-13 11:27:24 <ArtForz> it helps in keeping difficulty=1 so I can create a larger number of blocks
2443 2011-02-13 11:27:24 <xelister> RazielZ: Radeon 4xxx is bearly ok for minnig, but yea should be better then cpu... on the froums etc
2444 2011-02-13 11:27:41 <sipa> heretic_: if you're in for financial gain, the answer is: the electricity will cost you more than the profit you get from mining
2445 2011-02-13 11:28:00 <xelister> sipa: not really, depends on the cards
2446 2011-02-13 11:28:03 <bitcoiner> but if you speculate over the value of bitcoin
2447 2011-02-13 11:28:07 <ArtForz> remember, attackers chain needs more total work than main chain
2448 2011-02-13 11:28:09 <sipa> xelister: he has a cpu
2449 2011-02-13 11:28:18 <xelister> on 5770+ it is still proffitable, even a bit proffitable taking into account electricty and aux hw (the coputer/mobo)
2450 2011-02-13 11:28:26 <xelister> oh cpu. yea on cpu - do not mine.
2451 2011-02-13 11:28:27 <ArtForz> now if both start at the same genesis time and run to "now", they'll both end up with approx. the same # of blocks
2452 2011-02-13 11:28:48 <bitcoiner> im guessing a small group will end up with most of the bitcoin
2453 2011-02-13 11:28:49 <heretic_> i read on one forum that it is not working this generating system anymore? but here i can see the oposite. And i am not in financial gain, i just have a value wich i want to convert to "mycoin" system wich is also variable, so i just need to know if it is possible to setup the programm on bitcoin websiite for "mycoin "
2454 2011-02-13 11:28:57 <bitcoiner> wich will lead to a crash or rise in value ?
2455 2011-02-13 11:29:19 <ArtForz> now if attacker can start his chain with ntime = 1970, he can create a much larger number of blocks for the same total work
2456 2011-02-13 11:29:26 <sipa> heretic_: price is entirely determined by supply and demand
2457 2011-02-13 11:29:28 <xelister> bitcoiner: if too small group owns almost all bitcoins, it will be a crash imo
2458 2011-02-13 11:29:36 <joe_1> artforz: couldn't I generate 100,000 blocks off of the genesis block if I did it all at once on a high power GPU?
2459 2011-02-13 11:29:42 <ArtForz> no
2460 2011-02-13 11:29:53 <ArtForz> well, 100000, yes
2461 2011-02-13 11:30:04 <ArtForz> but not a few million
2462 2011-02-13 11:30:08 <xelister> joe_1: you will be slowed down x4 by each afair 2016 blocks generated
2463 2011-02-13 11:30:13 <ArtForz> yep
2464 2011-02-13 11:30:39 <xelister> so with 4 5970 and mining alone since diff=1 you could get away quite easly with like
2465 2011-02-13 11:30:40 <heretic_> <xelister> so what do you think? Is that possible?
2466 2011-02-13 11:30:41 <joe_1> ok. so the real answer to this (and something should probably addressed quickly) is a huge modification to the way that bitcoin chooses best chains.
2467 2011-02-13 11:30:46 <ArtForz> ?
2468 2011-02-13 11:30:50 <xelister> well with some number like ArtForz said probably
2469 2011-02-13 11:31:09 <ArtForz> joe_1: errr, huh?
2470 2011-02-13 11:31:22 <sipa> heretic_: what do you mean with generating system not working anymore?
2471 2011-02-13 11:31:22 <joe_1> when bitcoin chooses best chains it should sum up the difficulty that went into each block instead of just looking at the number of blocks.
2472 2011-02-13 11:31:30 <sipa> joe_1: it does
2473 2011-02-13 11:31:32 <ArtForz> IT ALREADY DOES THAT NUMNUT
2474 2011-02-13 11:31:53 <ArtForz> I said WORK. NOT NUMBER OF BLOCKS. THREE TIMES
2475 2011-02-13 11:31:57 <xelister> >_>
2476 2011-02-13 11:31:58 <heretic_> they say on the forum that bitcoin doesnt generate anymore coins, that all coins already generated and there is no need to generate it anymore
2477 2011-02-13 11:32:08 <sipa> huh
2478 2011-02-13 11:32:15 <noagendamarket> wtf
2479 2011-02-13 11:32:17 <joe_1> ok. then we don't need a genesis block.
2480 2011-02-13 11:32:20 <bitcoiner> they are not all generated yet
2481 2011-02-13 11:32:20 <xelister> noagendamarket: slashdot.
2482 2011-02-13 11:32:24 <sipa> the last coin will be generated somewhere in 2100
2483 2011-02-13 11:32:29 <noagendamarket> lmao
2484 2011-02-13 11:32:33 <sipa> possibly a bit sooner
2485 2011-02-13 11:32:34 <bitcoiner> they have a max though 21 million I think
2486 2011-02-13 11:32:38 <sipa> yes
2487 2011-02-13 11:32:52 <noagendamarket> yeah theres no need to generate .....
2488 2011-02-13 11:32:53 <bitcoiner> there was a genesis block
2489 2011-02-13 11:32:54 <heretic_> and how can you know that the 21 million is not reached yet?
2490 2011-02-13 11:33:00 <bitcoiner> but eventually it will be deleted
2491 2011-02-13 11:33:05 <bitcoiner> as it become useless
2492 2011-02-13 11:33:20 <noagendamarket> heretic its recorded in the block chain
2493 2011-02-13 11:33:31 <sipa> it isn't
2494 2011-02-13 11:33:41 <ArtForz> joe_1: I just explained why we *do* need a genesis block
2495 2011-02-13 11:34:04 <sipa> but there is a formula that says how many bitcoins are generated in every block (given its number)
2496 2011-02-13 11:34:08 <xelister> ArtForz: actually some pin point points hardcoded can be used in same function as genesis block probably
2497 2011-02-13 11:34:20 <joe_1> you're contradicting yourself because you said messing with the genesis block will allow me to make MORE blocks with the same work, but then saying number of blocks doesn't matter because the client sums up the work, not the number of blocks.
2498 2011-02-13 11:34:22 <sipa> and the sum of all those numbers is approximatelt 21 million
2499 2011-02-13 11:34:30 <ArtForz> YES
2500 2011-02-13 11:34:32 <bd_> heretic_: the 21 million coins thing is defined in terms of the length of the block chain, which is well known and easy to derive
2501 2011-02-13 11:34:52 <bitcoiner> right
2502 2011-02-13 11:34:53 <xelister> joe_1: number of blocks you generate in your separate chain is not important, anyway your chain will have less TOTALL WORK in it, so it will be discarded
2503 2011-02-13 11:34:55 <heretic_> ok!
2504 2011-02-13 11:35:00 <joe_1> therefore, it doesn't matter if somebody tampers with nTime of the genesis block. therefore, no genesis block is needed.
2505 2011-02-13 11:35:07 <ArtForz> xelister: the idea is if you CAN create a chain with more total work
2506 2011-02-13 11:35:33 <heretic_> if i have bought bitcoins and want to sell them, who actualy going to pay for this? Who it is profitable?
2507 2011-02-13 11:35:39 <ArtForz> attacker has X seconds from genesis to NOW, also needs to do at least Y work to overtake main chain
2508 2011-02-13 11:35:58 <bitcoiner> for people who want to buy and sell
2509 2011-02-13 11:36:04 <ArtForz> thanks to difficulty adjustment, he can't create much more than #blocks_in_main_chain in his alrternat reality version
2510 2011-02-13 11:36:12 <bitcoiner> anonymously ?
2511 2011-02-13 11:36:38 <xelister> heretic_: people that want bitcoins to buy other good from other people... etc.. this is just a currency.  Why people buy notes of paper with some green images of dead people that invaded Indians?
2512 2011-02-13 11:36:44 <ArtForz> now what happens if attacker can set his genesis ntime to a_few_centuries_ago?
2513 2011-02-13 11:37:14 <ArtForz> now he can keep work/block low, time/block at 600s and overtake main chain work
2514 2011-02-13 11:37:22 <bd_> ArtForz: The genesis block is hardcoded into the bitcoin program
2515 2011-02-13 11:37:28 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
2516 2011-02-13 11:37:31 <bd_> As are a few checkpoint blocks after the genesis block
2517 2011-02-13 11:37:38 <sipa> bd_: ArtForz is explaining to joe_1 why that is needed
2518 2011-02-13 11:37:40 <xelister> ArtForz: Then:  thou art getting my block No. 2, sire, and King Artyer sends in knights with block 3
2519 2011-02-13 11:37:47 <bd_> sipa: Oh. Nevermind then!
2520 2011-02-13 11:38:05 <joe_1> art: what? no! he can't overtake main chain work
2521 2011-02-13 11:38:13 <ArtForz> why not?
2522 2011-02-13 11:38:21 <joe_1> he would have to be doing more hash/s than the whole network
2523 2011-02-13 11:38:27 <ArtForz> ... so?
2524 2011-02-13 11:38:32 <heretic_> it seems like bitcoin is something like anonymous mutual benefit fund right?
2525 2011-02-13 11:38:47 mtgox has joined
2526 2011-02-13 11:39:09 <xelister> anyway the block with biggest number of totall hashes calculated is needed, right?  So actually just attacker getting huge number of easy blocks (due to not using genesis) does not guarantee him a win
2527 2011-02-13 11:39:11 <sipa> heretic_: i don't see how?
2528 2011-02-13 11:39:18 <ArtForz> xelister: no
2529 2011-02-13 11:39:24 <ArtForz> thats not the fucking point
2530 2011-02-13 11:39:43 <xelister> heretic_: bitcoin is a currency.  Few dudes agreed that they will make own dollars to trade with eachother, that is all
2531 2011-02-13 11:39:44 <bd_> joe_1: That assumes difficulty adjustment works properly. Which it only does if timestamps are reasonable. If the attacker can choose the genesis block, they just set it far enough in the past that it _looks_ like the bitcoin network isn't doing very much hashing work at all. This makes it easy to generate minimum-difficulty blocks quickly, while the _real_ network is working on very hard blocks
2532 2011-02-13 11:39:44 <ArtForz> if attacker has to start at same time, and do > work than main chain, he needs > work/block
2533 2011-02-13 11:40:16 <ArtForz> so attacker can create a chain that starts in far history and stays at diff=1, netting him way more blocks
2534 2011-02-13 11:40:37 <xelister> heh Im starting to see joe_1's point actually..
2535 2011-02-13 11:40:38 <bitcoiner> no
2536 2011-02-13 11:40:42 <ArtForz> yes
2537 2011-02-13 11:40:48 <xelister> we just said it is NOT important how many more blocks does the attacker make
2538 2011-02-13 11:40:53 <bitcoiner> you need to start with no 1
2539 2011-02-13 11:40:57 <ArtForz> it's not important for which chain wins
2540 2011-02-13 11:40:58 <xelister> only what is the summed number of all hashes actually calculated in his chain
2541 2011-02-13 11:41:08 <ArtForz> it's important for how many generations attacker ends up with
2542 2011-02-13 11:41:12 <heretic_> yes it is a mutual benefit fund, i understand it is not the point of the system, and what is that prevents me to create my own "mycoin" system to exchange my created dollars with my clients? Does the bitcoin system allow this function in their program or no??? Do i have to order some specific proframms for that or no?????
2543 2011-02-13 11:41:22 <bd_> xelister: Er, no? Nothing ever counts 'summed hashes'. Too easy to lie about it.
2544 2011-02-13 11:41:28 <bitcoiner> wait ur right but he would need tremendous power
2545 2011-02-13 11:41:38 <ArtForz> not really all that much
2546 2011-02-13 11:41:58 <sipa> heretic_: i have no idea what your question is
2547 2011-02-13 11:42:08 <sipa> which function are you talking about
2548 2011-02-13 11:42:18 <bd_> xelister: You can calculate as many or as few hashes as you want. The key is finding certain _rare_ hashes. And in the block chain, each hash calculation is dependent on the prior (so you have to do one after another, not all at the same time).
2549 2011-02-13 11:42:24 <bitcoiner> the grc guy spoke bout that but I dont rcall everything
2550 2011-02-13 11:42:25 <xelister> ArtForz: so you mean, attacker that anyway can overtake the network (by anyway having more totall hashpower then everyone!) that he can get even bigger victory by also pretending his super-chain (that in fact has epic amount of work in it) was generated over last 300 years or so. So that, if he ovetakes, he ends not with "just" 1 milion coins, but with like 5 milion?
2551 2011-02-13 11:42:36 <heretic_> :) my question is i want to creat my own "mycoin" system, is it possible of not?
2552 2011-02-13 11:42:38 <ArtForz> yep
2553 2011-02-13 11:42:46 <sipa> heretic_: yes, it is possible
2554 2011-02-13 11:42:56 <bd_> xelister: So, since you know how rare the blocks are, you can estimate how much work, _on average_ it takes to find one. But this isn't actually done. Instead we just look at the length of the chain
2555 2011-02-13 11:42:58 <sipa> heretic_: but i don't think many people will want to trade it for dollars
2556 2011-02-13 11:43:07 <xelister> bd_: yeah, I ment the summed totall diffictulty of found hashes
2557 2011-02-13 11:43:07 <ArtForz> bd_: wrong
2558 2011-02-13 11:43:20 <bd_> ArtForz: oh?
2559 2011-02-13 11:43:24 <ArtForz> we look at sum(difficulty)
2560 2011-02-13 11:43:25 <heretic_> they will want i am sure, i have a project and i just need exactly the bitcoin system
2561 2011-02-13 11:43:29 <bitcoiner> heretic the question is will your currency work ?
2562 2011-02-13 11:43:34 * xelister is as correct as ArtForz today \o/
2563 2011-02-13 11:43:37 <heretic_> yes it will work
2564 2011-02-13 11:43:39 <bd_> ArtForz: Hm, do you have a source reference there?
2565 2011-02-13 11:43:39 <sipa> heretic_: but why not use bitcoin itself?
2566 2011-02-13 11:43:42 <ArtForz> so a diff 1000 block counts as much as 1000 diff 1 blocks
2567 2011-02-13 11:43:43 <ArtForz> yes
2568 2011-02-13 11:44:06 <heretic_> because i need to control my currency rate bymyself
2569 2011-02-13 11:44:29 <heretic_> and what do i need to do for that to create my "owncoin" system?
2570 2011-02-13 11:44:51 <sipa> so you will be providing an exchange system for your owncoin system to/from dollars?
2571 2011-02-13 11:44:58 <bd_> heretic_: Change the genesis block and protocol version, and you'll have a forked network. The test bitcoin network does something similar.
2572 2011-02-13 11:45:00 <xelister> heretic_: there is no currency controll. This is not sovier russia, it is a free market.  No one person stands ehind bitcoin.  Just people agreed like on using gold (but instead they use computer hashes, because they are also rare, but more convineint the gold) to trade with eachother, that is it
2573 2011-02-13 11:45:22 <heretic_> <xelister>   are you russian?
2574 2011-02-13 11:45:26 <xelister> no
2575 2011-02-13 11:45:39 <sipa> heretic_: and still allow people to generate their own owncoin, which you will accept in return for dollars/whatever other fiat currency?
2576 2011-02-13 11:45:49 * sipa thinks you'll be broke in no time
2577 2011-02-13 11:46:26 <ArtForz> GetBlockWork in main.h, CBlock::AddToBlockIndex in main.cpp pindexNew->bnChainWork = (pindexNew->pprev ? pindexNew->pprev->bnChainWork : 0) + pindexNew->GetBlockWork();
2578 2011-02-13 11:46:34 <xelister> ArtForz: as long as my gfx card does not lock up, and while it has < 78 C (5770) on normal voltage, can I be almost sure it will stay working for year+ as normally, or is there some damage done to it?  Only thermal demages the card hw or something else too? Assuming temperature does not jump around too much
2579 2011-02-13 11:47:01 <heretic_> look sipa, i have my own project with my forumals, i just need a programming solution for this stuff, thats why i am exploring this bitcoin system, and noone exactly didnt answer my question in this chat:))))))
2580 2011-02-13 11:47:03 <ArtForz> right below that if (pindexNew->bnChainWork > bnBestChainWork)
2581 2011-02-13 11:47:23 <sipa> heretic_: it's been answered a few times
2582 2011-02-13 11:47:24 <bitcoiner> art
2583 2011-02-13 11:47:37 <heretic_> but been rejected as well....:(
2584 2011-02-13 11:47:37 <bd_> ArtForz: hm, okay.
2585 2011-02-13 11:47:37 <bitcoiner> did you listen to that grc guy spoke bout bitcoins on twit tv ?
2586 2011-02-13 11:48:07 <bd_> xelister: well, in any case, the sum of actual hashes isn't looked at. Just the sum of the rarities of the blocks.
2587 2011-02-13 11:48:22 <ArtForz> yes
2588 2011-02-13 11:48:27 <bd_> In principle, it's possible to generate a high-difficulty block chain with only one hash per block. Just highly unlikely.
2589 2011-02-13 11:48:41 <ArtForz> really really unlikely
2590 2011-02-13 11:48:47 <sipa> heretic_: i'm just telling you i think it's a bad idea - that it is not what you need; but if you want to continue, take the bitcoin source, change the genesis block, change the port and/or hash possibly, change the name, and change whatever you don't like about bitcoin (like its creating rate)
2591 2011-02-13 11:49:01 <ArtForz> also change the irc channel
2592 2011-02-13 11:49:11 <bitcoiner> lol
2593 2011-02-13 11:49:13 <ArtForz> pretty much copy what testnet mode does
2594 2011-02-13 11:49:29 <sipa> port and/or hash -> port and/or magic
2595 2011-02-13 11:49:29 <heretic_> <ArtForz> you are so clever bravo!
2596 2011-02-13 11:49:36 <xelister> bd_: yes
2597 2011-02-13 11:49:49 <sipa> heretic_: it has already been done indeed for the testnet
2598 2011-02-13 11:49:59 <xelister> ArtForz: or can you tell me if you fried any card yet / how / what to watch out for?
2599 2011-02-13 11:50:04 <ArtForz> heretic_: you do realize the client is using a irc channel to find peers for bootstrapping, right?
2600 2011-02-13 11:50:25 <sipa> but there's no straightforward guide about how to do it (and i don't think there should be)
2601 2011-02-13 11:50:28 <ArtForz> so you kinda want to change that if you're creating a incompatible fork
2602 2011-02-13 11:50:43 <heretic_> <sipa> thank you for the answer
2603 2011-02-13 11:51:04 <ArtForz> xelister: should be fine
2604 2011-02-13 11:51:05 <noagendamarket> bitcoin should use fidonet lol
2605 2011-02-13 11:51:32 <xelister> heretic_: creating own separate value is an monumentall taks, because you need thousands of people to support economy to have something that can be traded with your currency so it has any value.  And, if you have fully cnetralized system like say WoW with own currency, you do not eed bitcoin with all clomplex hashing, just amek a centralized bookkeeping system and that is all!
2606 2011-02-13 11:51:39 <ArtForz> as long as it's not running hot it should survive for a few years
2607 2011-02-13 11:51:44 <xelister> noagendamarket: =)
2608 2011-02-13 11:51:57 <ArtForz> well, except maybe for the fan
2609 2011-02-13 11:52:15 <xelister> ArtForz: really? awesome.  Do you know what is 'too hot' for 5770, 5870, 5970?  and setting what V can be fine, and is it safe as long as it does not overheat?
2610 2011-02-13 11:52:40 <ArtForz> inofficial official max safe temp is 85°C
2611 2011-02-13 11:52:44 <xelister> hmm I suppose you can unmount the main box and replace fun... but better have a good critical-stop function working to stop card on fan fail lol :>
2612 2011-02-13 11:52:49 Zarutian has joined
2613 2011-02-13 11:52:54 <xelister> ArtForz: this is the same for all 5xxx series, right?
2614 2011-02-13 11:52:57 <xelister> at least >= 5770
2615 2011-02-13 11:53:00 <ArtForz> yes
2616 2011-02-13 11:53:04 <ArtForz> all 5xxx I think
2617 2011-02-13 11:53:12 <bitcoiner> what bout 4xxx temp ?
2618 2011-02-13 11:53:22 <joe_1> artforz: the code you provided indicates that the cumulative work is used, not the number of blocks
2619 2011-02-13 11:53:25 <ArtForz> same thing
2620 2011-02-13 11:53:29 <ArtForz> joe_1: yes
2621 2011-02-13 11:54:08 <ArtForz> any recent ATI should have max safe temp 85°C, except for a few mobile versions that are 95°C
2622 2011-02-13 11:54:19 <xelister> bitcoiner: with 4xxx anyway mining is not too much worthwile imo
2623 2011-02-13 11:54:23 <ArtForz> yep
2624 2011-02-13 11:54:42 <ArtForz> 4xxx is kinda slow as it doesn't have a native rotate() opcode
2625 2011-02-13 11:54:50 <bitcoiner> I know but for now that is all I got
2626 2011-02-13 11:55:14 <bitcoiner> but I really like the whole system I learned more in gpu cpu and stuff in 3 days than in a year with bitcoin
2627 2011-02-13 11:55:42 <joe_1> is anyone familiar with wxformbuilder
2628 2011-02-13 11:56:15 <xelister> bitcoiner: me too =)
2629 2011-02-13 11:56:28 <xelister> joe_1: afair I used it. it was not so bad
2630 2011-02-13 11:56:38 <bitcoiner> this very interesting
2631 2011-02-13 11:56:54 <ArtForz> blower fan on reference 57/58/59xx should last quite a while, those are ball bearing units
2632 2011-02-13 11:57:18 <ArtForz> the axial fans used on the cheap 57xx/58xx ... not so much
2633 2011-02-13 11:58:23 <ArtForz> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161338 <- these fans last maybe 3 months at 100%
2634 2011-02-13 11:59:22 <bitcoiner> would they pay for themself ?
2635 2011-02-13 11:59:22 <ArtForz> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102873 <- same thing for these
2636 2011-02-13 12:00:10 <ArtForz> actually it's the same thing for pretty much all 3rd party coolers that use this fan
2637 2011-02-13 12:00:30 <ArtForz> cheap sleeve-bearing unit :/
2638 2011-02-13 12:00:54 <xelister> huh
2639 2011-02-13 12:01:02 <xelister> so is replacing a fan possible-easy?
2640 2011-02-13 12:01:10 <ArtForz> not too hard on these
2641 2011-02-13 12:01:24 <ArtForz> 3 easily accessible screws
2642 2011-02-13 12:01:31 <ArtForz> getting a replacement... not so easy
2643 2011-02-13 12:01:33 <xelister> so how to pick correct fan?
2644 2011-02-13 12:01:40 <ArtForz> magic!
2645 2011-02-13 12:02:03 <xelister> both safire and his suck with fans? so what to use
2646 2011-02-13 12:02:09 TD_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2647 2011-02-13 12:02:12 <xelister> sapphire
2648 2011-02-13 12:02:18 TD_ has joined
2649 2011-02-13 12:02:25 <bitcoiner> somebody with massive computation power could spoof the chain but
2650 2011-02-13 12:02:31 <ArtForz> well, either stick with refrence cooler cards or use a 3rd party cooler with ball bearing fans
2651 2011-02-13 12:03:16 <xelister> so refernece cooler is the one that was made originaly by Ati as example for vendors? How to recognize them in e-shop?
2652 2011-02-13 12:03:28 <bitcoiner> the longuer the chain gets and the more good nodes there are the more impossible it become to spoof the chain
2653 2011-02-13 12:03:28 <ArtForz> sapphire uses the same crap fan for all their non-ref 5770s it seems :/
2654 2011-02-13 12:04:40 <ArtForz> well, stock "box" cooler is pretty damn obvious
2655 2011-02-13 12:06:49 <xelister> ArtForz: wikipedia says ball barings anyway have just x2 better lifetime (at 50 C) ~60,000 h  ; well, and normal fans have ~40 kH = 3 years so not that bad. Or is it getting rapidly worse at 70 C for sleeve?
2656 2011-02-13 12:07:03 <ArtForz> yes
2657 2011-02-13 12:07:44 <ArtForz> just google sleeve bearing lifetime elevated temperature
2658 2011-02-13 12:08:51 <ArtForz> I have a few of these HIS and Sapphire 5770s, with fan bearings either worn as hell or seized
2659 2011-02-13 12:09:33 <xelister> seized == ?
2660 2011-02-13 12:09:38 <ArtForz> stuck
2661 2011-02-13 12:09:50 <ArtForz> can't even turn it by hand
2662 2011-02-13 12:09:52 <xelister> ok so they are unusable and must be send back for warranty?
2663 2011-02-13 12:09:55 <ArtForz> nah
2664 2011-02-13 12:10:03 <xelister> warranty fixes it?
2665 2011-02-13 12:10:14 <ArtForz> I just remove the fans and run em passively
2666 2011-02-13 12:10:43 <ArtForz> that way I can stick 4 on a 790fx board and cool em with a single 120x38mm
2667 2011-02-13 12:10:56 <xelister> uhm
2668 2011-02-13 12:11:28 <ArtForz> well, those heatpipe fansinks without fan+shroud make nice passive heatsinks
2669 2011-02-13 12:11:45 <xelister> so no fan at the GPU but good fan pushing air quickly over the gpu will work too?
2670 2011-02-13 12:11:50 <ArtForz> yep
2671 2011-02-13 12:12:00 <ArtForz> well, with those coolers it does
2672 2011-02-13 12:12:11 <ArtForz> they have a nice fin spacing and fins running lengthwise
2673 2011-02-13 12:12:14 <xelister> will this stoping of fan + big external fan work fine for normal stock/box 5770-5970 too, or is putting there speciall custom heat sink a mendatory step
2674 2011-02-13 12:12:42 <ArtForz> wont work for stock I think ,those have coolers with way smaller fin area designed for higher airspeeds
2675 2011-02-13 12:13:20 <xelister> ok so overall I better get ball bering versions unless I want to dick around with buying and placing own heatsinks and fans
2676 2011-02-13 12:13:24 <ArtForz> yep
2677 2011-02-13 12:14:00 <xelister> considered oil cooling?
2678 2011-02-13 12:14:16 <xelister> remove all fans, emmerge entire box in some oil
2679 2011-02-13 12:14:27 <xelister> obviously keep CD etc outside of the tank ;)
2680 2011-02-13 12:14:32 <xelister> but you dont need this parts anyway
2681 2011-02-13 12:14:36 <ArtForz> meh, too much work
2682 2011-02-13 12:15:00 <xelister> or is it?  remove all funs, get 0.7 x 0.4 m box, fill with oil, profit - cool & quiet?
2683 2011-02-13 12:15:04 <xelister> fans
2684 2011-02-13 12:15:17 <ArtForz> and how do you remove the heat from that box? magic?
2685 2011-02-13 12:15:23 <noagendamarket> mineral oil
2686 2011-02-13 12:15:33 <ArtForz> = you need a big-ass rad, and a pump, and fans for that rad
2687 2011-02-13 12:15:45 <xelister> well oil gives quite big space right? and box will radiate or somethin
2688 2011-02-13 12:15:51 <ArtForz> no it wont
2689 2011-02-13 12:15:58 <noagendamarket> http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php
2690 2011-02-13 12:16:14 <ArtForz> take you average size fishtank, put in a 600W heater, see how hot it gets
2691 2011-02-13 12:16:14 <xelister> harder to boil 30 L of oil, compared to burning small chip I guess
2692 2011-02-13 12:16:40 <ArtForz> make that 750W for 4 5870s
2693 2011-02-13 12:16:44 <xelister> noagendamarket: well it does look cool
2694 2011-02-13 12:17:12 <bitcoiner> ahahhaha
2695 2011-02-13 12:17:15 <ArtForz> 88°C cpu temp under load
2696 2011-02-13 12:17:46 <ArtForz> soo... they slapped a rad on
2697 2011-02-13 12:17:49 <bitcoiner> is it dangerous to run cpu at load all time ?
2698 2011-02-13 12:18:09 <ArtForz> so you now need tubing + pump + rad + fans anyways
2699 2011-02-13 12:19:03 <xelister> or
2700 2011-02-13 12:19:19 <xelister> a big ass box + slowly pump-circulate the fluit to outside/basement =)
2701 2011-02-13 12:19:22 <ArtForz> might as well just get a bunch of full cover waterblocks instead of fucking with that
2702 2011-02-13 12:19:36 <xelister> but but
2703 2011-02-13 12:19:39 <xelister> you can put fish there
2704 2011-02-13 12:19:48 <xelister> well, some warm-tropical fishes =)
2705 2011-02-13 12:20:06 <xelister> and pirania. and it makes money. And buy lasers with btc and get sharks
2706 2011-02-13 12:20:23 <xelister> no wait, oil != water
2707 2011-02-13 12:20:42 <xelister> hm.  you could make french fries thou
2708 2011-02-13 12:20:47 <xelister> and onion rings
2709 2011-02-13 12:20:49 <ArtForz> btw, isnt someone heating his bathroom floor with his watercooled 5970 mining rig?
2710 2011-02-13 12:21:03 <xelister> you?
2711 2011-02-13 12:21:06 <ArtForz> nope
2712 2011-02-13 12:21:29 <ArtForz> I run aircooling only
2713 2011-02-13 12:21:37 <ArtForz> well, for my miners
2714 2011-02-13 12:21:45 <xelister> "Why not use a laptop?"
2715 2011-02-13 12:21:49 <xelister> err. because Im not a fag?
2716 2011-02-13 12:21:56 * xelister doesnt get why people use laptops @ home
2717 2011-02-13 12:22:17 <ArtForz> xelister: no clue
2718 2011-02-13 12:22:56 <ArtForz> I also wonder about that
2719 2011-02-13 12:23:15 <bitcoiner> when i open the door my temp drop by almost 20 C
2720 2011-02-13 12:24:05 <xelister> btw
2721 2011-02-13 12:24:13 <xelister> do radeons and overall PCs
2722 2011-02-13 12:24:20 <xelister> take well humidity up to 50 % relative ?
2723 2011-02-13 12:24:26 <ArtForz> yes
2724 2011-02-13 12:24:32 <bitcoiner> lol
2725 2011-02-13 12:24:36 <ArtForz> anything noncondensing is fine
2726 2011-02-13 12:24:44 <edcba> xelister: easier when in bed
2727 2011-02-13 12:24:44 <xelister> in computer room humity is 20% :{
2728 2011-02-13 12:24:59 <ArtForz> not to mention getting condensation on hot components would be... quite a trick
2729 2011-02-13 12:25:03 <xelister> so I will use probably air humifier (ultrasonic)
2730 2011-02-13 12:25:22 <xelister> thou better use destiled water to not cover everything in white calcium dust
2731 2011-02-13 12:25:41 <xelister> humified air (eg 50% instead 20%) should be better or worse .. or same? for cooling
2732 2011-02-13 12:25:53 <xelister> water transmist heat better
2733 2011-02-13 12:25:54 <edcba> vapor cooling ?
2734 2011-02-13 12:26:26 <xelister> edcba: I just ment in the room, to have reasonable conditions in the room for people.. but anyway humified should cool a  bit better I guess
2735 2011-02-13 12:26:42 <ArtForz> http://www.pugetsystems.com/aquarium-computer.php notice the humungous rad they're using for a 800W system ...
2736 2011-02-13 12:27:59 <bitcoiner> vapor cooling would work ?
2737 2011-02-13 12:28:02 <ArtForz> yes
2738 2011-02-13 12:28:07 <xelister> hm?
2739 2011-02-13 12:28:24 <ArtForz> vapor cooling would work
2740 2011-02-13 12:28:27 <xelister> anyway, so humified air (~50%) is a bit better? a lot better?
2741 2011-02-13 12:28:29 <bitcoiner> humidity cooling then its vapor cooling ?
2742 2011-02-13 12:28:37 <ArtForz> not really
2743 2011-02-13 12:28:57 <ArtForz> unless you're running at near vacuum or > 100°C
2744 2011-02-13 12:29:16 <ArtForz> otherwise water vapor will just increase thermal capacity of air a bit
2745 2011-02-13 12:29:50 <ArtForz> and yes, phase change cooling can move LOTS of heat
2746 2011-02-13 12:30:09 <bitcoiner> hardware can run well under 0 C room temp ?
2747 2011-02-13 12:30:30 <ArtForz> generally... yes
2748 2011-02-13 12:30:35 <ArtForz> just dont shut it down
2749 2011-02-13 12:30:37 <lfm> if the condesation doesnt get to it
2750 2011-02-13 12:30:54 <ArtForz> 58/59xx doesnt like starting < -5°C or so
2751 2011-02-13 12:31:06 <ArtForz> what condensation?
2752 2011-02-13 12:31:16 <lfm> and fan berring freeze up
2753 2011-02-13 12:31:32 <ArtForz> condensation can only occur on surfaces < ambient temp
2754 2011-02-13 12:31:42 <bitcoiner> what is ur ambiant temp room art ?
2755 2011-02-13 12:31:50 <ArtForz> 21°C currently
2756 2011-02-13 12:31:58 <edcba> http://www.overclockers.com/cpu-vapor-cooling-thermosyphon/
2757 2011-02-13 12:32:05 <bitcoiner> humidity ?
2758 2011-02-13 12:32:21 <ArtForz> checks... 70% RH
2759 2011-02-13 12:34:39 <lfm> regular heat pipes are phase change
2760 2011-02-13 12:34:49 <ArtForz> yep
2761 2011-02-13 12:35:58 qube23 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2)
2762 2011-02-13 12:36:23 <ArtForz> add a compressor in the vapor pipe and a restriction in the liquid pipe to create pressor = boiling point difference and you get... a AC unit
2763 2011-02-13 12:36:40 <bitcoiner> lol
2764 2011-02-13 12:36:59 <xelister> 5xxx will auto shutdown (or throlle a lot) if their fan fails?  (linux)
2765 2011-02-13 12:37:05 <ArtForz> yes
2766 2011-02-13 12:37:20 <xelister> would be not fun to melth gpu AND computer (and room, and house... ;)
2767 2011-02-13 12:38:52 dishwara has joined
2768 2011-02-13 12:39:48 TD__ has joined
2769 2011-02-13 12:39:57 <MartianW> xelister, it shouldn't catch anything on fire.
2770 2011-02-13 12:40:02 <MartianW> It'll just break.
2771 2011-02-13 12:40:57 <noagendamarket> I just relised Orielly tweeted about bitcoin
2772 2011-02-13 12:41:14 <lfm> my 5770 runs ok at 70c with fan off at std clock
2773 2011-02-13 12:41:15 <noagendamarket> http://twitter.com/#!/timoreilly
2774 2011-02-13 12:41:57 <xelister> hm.. wasnt that guy mentioned in rap news? as the bad guy
2775 2011-02-13 12:42:58 <xelister> rap news 5
2776 2011-02-13 12:43:40 TD_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2777 2011-02-13 12:43:45 <dishwara> hi
2778 2011-02-13 12:43:55 <dishwara> hi Diablo-D3
2779 2011-02-13 12:44:15 <dishwara> 18:05 <dishwara> when i run diablo miner i get following error
2780 2011-02-13 12:44:19 <xelister> no wait, that was Bill
2781 2011-02-13 12:44:43 <dishwara> 1 miner threads started, using SHA256 'c' algorithm.
2782 2011-02-13 12:44:43 <dishwara> HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error: 400
2783 2011-02-13 12:44:44 <dishwara> json_rpc_call failed, retry after 30 seconds
2784 2011-02-13 12:44:53 <dishwara> C:\CPU-miner\minerd.exe --url=http://minining.bitcoin.cz:8332  --userpass=***:***
2785 2011-02-13 12:45:00 <dishwara> windows 7 32 bit
2786 2011-02-13 12:45:15 <dishwara> with 2% donation
2787 2011-02-13 12:45:21 <lfm> dishwara: wrong port?
2788 2011-02-13 12:45:46 <xelister> dishwara: I also have problems
2789 2011-02-13 12:45:57 <lfm> dishwara: wrong account?
2790 2011-02-13 12:45:57 <xelister> I switched off the pool :[
2791 2011-02-13 12:45:57 <xelister> and just mine normally
2792 2011-02-13 12:46:02 <dishwara> acc correct
2793 2011-02-13 12:46:06 <xelister> I was getting lots of server unreachable
2794 2011-02-13 12:46:53 <lfm> I think slush's server gets overloaded sometimes
2795 2011-02-13 12:47:22 <xelister> yea
2796 2011-02-13 12:47:23 BlueMatt has joined
2797 2011-02-13 12:49:34 <dishwara> hmm
2798 2011-02-13 12:54:34 <edcba> http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-fake-money-saved-brazil
2799 2011-02-13 12:54:37 <edcba> interesting
2800 2011-02-13 12:55:20 <edcba> i don't see how URV saved them and is real valued bitcoin needed ?
2801 2011-02-13 12:57:00 <edcba> maybe instead of using bitcoins we should use some totalgenerated/bitcoins formula
2802 2011-02-13 13:02:57 <edcba> ie i want to buy something really expensive
2803 2011-02-13 13:03:13 <edcba> i'd ask 0.01% of total bitcoins
2804 2011-02-13 13:03:35 <edcba> thus i would not have to change my price every 2 mornings
2805 2011-02-13 13:03:39 TD__ has quit (Quit: TD__)
2806 2011-02-13 13:04:43 Validus has joined
2807 2011-02-13 13:05:08 <BlueMatt> edcba: no the thing is the number of bitcoins in total has a fixed limit, thus, provided there is always interest in the "currency", there will never be hyperinflation, only deflation in the long run and possibly slight inflation depending on market conditions
2808 2011-02-13 13:05:30 <BlueMatt> edcba: also, if there were no interest in the "currency", inflation would happen no matter how you calculate the price
2809 2011-02-13 13:06:19 <Validus> sup guys, nice to see ppl alive this early in the a.m.
2810 2011-02-13 13:08:00 <sipa> it's 2pm here!
2811 2011-02-13 13:08:28 <Validus> 7 am here. but who needs sleep. this is inets
2812 2011-02-13 13:08:36 <edcba> BlueMatt: working like that would simplify a lot of thing
2813 2011-02-13 13:09:05 <sipa> or you could defined an indexed bitcoin
2814 2011-02-13 13:09:05 <edcba> ppl would not have to change prices regularly
2815 2011-02-13 13:09:11 <sipa> define
2816 2011-02-13 13:09:49 <sipa> where eg. once every week an index is calculated based on the bitcoin-price of some commodities
2817 2011-02-13 13:11:03 <edcba> or maybe we could just wait it stabilizes
2818 2011-02-13 13:11:10 <edcba> not really important
2819 2011-02-13 13:11:38 <xelister> edcba: there was audio pod cast about this stroy too
2820 2011-02-13 13:11:50 <sipa> it won't stabilize
2821 2011-02-13 13:11:58 <edcba> but i don't know if ppl see how much worth 1/21M total money...
2822 2011-02-13 13:12:00 <Validus> doesnt bitcoin fluctuate like foreign currency exchanges?
2823 2011-02-13 13:12:14 <sipa> it fluctuates a lot more
2824 2011-02-13 13:12:32 <Validus> ive noticed from the sites i've seen that post the rates
2825 2011-02-13 13:12:38 <edcba> sipa each time a new block is generated the value of bitcoin is diluted
2826 2011-02-13 13:12:41 <Diablo-D3> dishwara: [07:38:12] <dishwara> C:\CPU-miner\minerd.exe --url=http://minining.bitcoin.cz:8332  --userpass=***:***
2827 2011-02-13 13:12:42 <sipa> yes
2828 2011-02-13 13:12:44 <BlueMatt> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/mtgox/ rate
2829 2011-02-13 13:12:46 <Diablo-D3> dishwara: thats not my miner.
2830 2011-02-13 13:12:51 <edcba> but the dilution weakens
2831 2011-02-13 13:12:56 <edcba> so that stabilizes
2832 2011-02-13 13:13:01 <BlueMatt> edcba: not reallt
2833 2011-02-13 13:13:10 <Validus> so outa all the miners which is best? and intensive?
2834 2011-02-13 13:13:24 <dishwara> sorry Diablo-D3 , misunderstood
2835 2011-02-13 13:13:31 <sipa> the money supply will reach a maximum
2836 2011-02-13 13:13:32 <BlueMatt> Validus: check #bitcoin-discussion they are talking about it now
2837 2011-02-13 13:13:51 <Validus> cool. i just followed the guide for poclbm
2838 2011-02-13 13:13:52 <sipa> but the size of the economy hopefully won't
2839 2011-02-13 13:13:53 <BlueMatt> edcba: creating a floating price based on bitcoins would further complicate things and make stores even less willing to offer payments in bitcoins
2840 2011-02-13 13:14:09 <edcba> why complicate ?
2841 2011-02-13 13:14:26 <Diablo-D3> dishwara: btw, did you enable donations in your pool account?
2842 2011-02-13 13:14:29 <sipa> edcba: even if the full 21M btc were in circulation today, you'd need to adjust prices
2843 2011-02-13 13:14:33 <BlueMatt> if the size of the bitcoin "economy" doesnt die, there should eventually be high deflation, ie money is worth more
2844 2011-02-13 13:15:05 <sipa> since the same number of bitcoin will be used for trading more and more goods and services
2845 2011-02-13 13:15:07 <Diablo-D3> dishwara: for the time being, slush is requiring donations due to the huge surge in new users
2846 2011-02-13 13:15:25 <sipa> the apparent price of those goods and services will go down
2847 2011-02-13 13:15:27 <dishwara> yes Diablo-D3 , i enabled in http://mining.bitcoin.cz
2848 2011-02-13 13:15:37 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2849 2011-02-13 13:15:58 <Diablo-D3> dunno. at least my miner prints the actual returned error
2850 2011-02-13 13:17:42 <edcba> sipa: maybe you'd need to adjust prices but not as frequently as now with bitcoin value changing...
2851 2011-02-13 13:18:44 <sipa> edcba: you understand that even while the amount of btc in circulation is increasing now, prices are falling?
2852 2011-02-13 13:18:51 <edcba> yes
2853 2011-02-13 13:18:56 <edcba> of course lol
2854 2011-02-13 13:19:22 <sipa> and that if the amount wouldn't increase, those prices would be falling even more?
2855 2011-02-13 13:19:30 <edcba> you can't pay with 1/21M total worth an egg :)
2856 2011-02-13 13:21:26 <edcba> ok so what we needed is to invert how we define money
2857 2011-02-13 13:21:35 <sipa> no
2858 2011-02-13 13:21:53 <edcba> instead of being paid 50 btc is to get 1 share of total worth
2859 2011-02-13 13:22:06 <sipa> what is "1 share" ?
2860 2011-02-13 13:22:15 <edcba> 1/total
2861 2011-02-13 13:22:21 <edcba> still divisible
2862 2011-02-13 13:22:23 <sipa> that's not useful
2863 2011-02-13 13:22:32 <edcba> of course it is
2864 2011-02-13 13:22:37 <sipa> well yes it is
2865 2011-02-13 13:22:43 <sipa> but not more than simply BTC
2866 2011-02-13 13:22:47 <edcba> because 21M is not divisible ad infinitum
2867 2011-02-13 13:22:52 <sipa> why not?
2868 2011-02-13 13:23:04 <edcba> because bitcoin doesn't work with floating point
2869 2011-02-13 13:23:18 <sipa> the current implementation doesn't
2870 2011-02-13 13:23:33 <sipa> and future implementations won't either, but may use more digits
2871 2011-02-13 13:23:41 <BlueMatt> edcba: that doesnt make it indivisible, floating point has a limit
2872 2011-02-13 13:24:04 <BlueMatt> edcba: the current implementation has support for 8? digits, I think thats plenty
2873 2011-02-13 13:24:12 <BlueMatt> you just cant enter it in the gui
2874 2011-02-13 13:24:19 <edcba> i know
2875 2011-02-13 13:24:23 <sipa> and you don't want to use floating point for currencies, amounts need to be representable exactly
2876 2011-02-13 13:24:27 <edcba> but still that is a limit
2877 2011-02-13 13:24:50 <BlueMatt> edcba: and floating point has a limit as well, its a computer there is always a limit
2878 2011-02-13 13:24:56 <edcba> sipa: that's why i said you don't want to divide 21M
2879 2011-02-13 13:25:02 <edcba> you want to increase totla
2880 2011-02-13 13:25:04 <edcba> total
2881 2011-02-13 13:25:18 <sipa> maybe you want to :)
2882 2011-02-13 13:25:46 <edcba> any sane programmer would i think
2883 2011-02-13 13:25:50 <sipa> bitcoin derives a lot of its strength from the knowledge that there is only a limited supply
2884 2011-02-13 13:26:07 <sipa> what does programming have to do with it?
2885 2011-02-13 13:26:15 <edcba> wtf lol
2886 2011-02-13 13:26:36 <sipa> i'm not sure we're talking about the same thing
2887 2011-02-13 13:27:31 <edcba> there are 2 phenomenon we were talking about prices changing
2888 2011-02-13 13:27:44 <sipa> yes
2889 2011-02-13 13:28:02 <edcba> mining and usual economy
2890 2011-02-13 13:28:09 <sipa> increase of the monetary mass (in bitcoin: the 50 BTC per block)
2891 2011-02-13 13:28:26 <sipa> and increase of the economy itself (the goods and services being traded for BTC)
2892 2011-02-13 13:28:31 <edcba> mining makes fluctuating prices a lot at beginning
2893 2011-02-13 13:28:49 <sipa> the first one causes prices to increase
2894 2011-02-13 13:28:57 <sipa> the second one causes prices to decrease
2895 2011-02-13 13:29:29 <sipa> regardless of the increase of BTC in circulation, prices seem to decrease
2896 2011-02-13 13:29:47 <sipa> so i think that currently, the second effect is a lot stronger than the first
2897 2011-02-13 13:30:37 <edcba> and i doubt 21e17 will be enough
2898 2011-02-13 13:30:50 <sipa> any number is enough if it is divisible
2899 2011-02-13 13:30:58 <edcba> that is the problem
2900 2011-02-13 13:31:09 <edcba> it isn't
2901 2011-02-13 13:31:17 <sipa> for now it is
2902 2011-02-13 13:31:29 <joe_1> why won't 21e17 be enough
2903 2011-02-13 13:31:56 <edcba> because we have more and more goods/services
2904 2011-02-13 13:32:54 <sipa> the current M2 supply of USD is some 9*10^12
2905 2011-02-13 13:33:11 <sipa> oops
2906 2011-02-13 13:34:12 <edcba> anyway it's a unnecessary imposed limit
2907 2011-02-13 13:34:32 <edcba> we could have just limited shares/time
2908 2011-02-13 13:34:43 <sipa> ?
2909 2011-02-13 13:34:50 <edcba> reward/time
2910 2011-02-13 13:34:59 <devon_hillard> bitcoin is still in beta, is that correct?
2911 2011-02-13 13:35:07 <sipa> edcba: eloborate please?
2912 2011-02-13 13:35:10 <BlueMatt> devon_hillard: technically, yes
2913 2011-02-13 13:35:11 <edcba> the 50btc/10 minutes without 21M limit
2914 2011-02-13 13:35:20 <sipa> why would you want that?
2915 2011-02-13 13:35:57 <sipa> if the problem is divisibility, add decimals
2916 2011-02-13 13:36:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: the point is we cant add decimals
2917 2011-02-13 13:36:16 <sipa> if the problem is psychological value of money, use an index
2918 2011-02-13 13:36:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: not without changing the protocol no, but there's been talk about that
2919 2011-02-13 13:37:03 <Validus> ok runing pcblm. i noticed it said problem connecting to rpc. then few seconds later continued with the khash/s
2920 2011-02-13 13:37:09 <Validus> is that alright or is ther an underlying error im missing
2921 2011-02-13 13:37:14 <joe_1> the way i understand this (could be wrong) the client displays 8 decimals, but the back end protocol will accept the 17 digits. Is this right?
2922 2011-02-13 13:37:18 <Validus> i see 4 accepted
2923 2011-02-13 13:37:41 <sipa> joe_1: the client displays 2 decimals now, the protocol supports 8
2924 2011-02-13 13:37:50 <BlueMatt> joe_1 I believe gui only shows 4, the cli shows 8
2925 2011-02-13 13:37:58 <joe_1> ok yeah im really tired
2926 2011-02-13 13:37:58 <BlueMatt> excuse me gui shows 2
2927 2011-02-13 13:38:16 <joe_1> so what was the 21e17 number being thrown around?
2928 2011-02-13 13:38:19 <joe_1> 17 would be enough
2929 2011-02-13 13:38:39 <sipa> 21 million (supply) * 100 million (microcents in a BTC)
2930 2011-02-13 13:39:30 <sipa> is 21*10^17
2931 2011-02-13 13:39:30 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2932 2011-02-13 13:39:36 <joe_1> ok,
2933 2011-02-13 13:40:01 <sipa> hey
2934 2011-02-13 13:40:24 <sipa> it's only 21*10^14
2935 2011-02-13 13:40:48 <joe_1> so it's 2.1e15
2936 2011-02-13 13:41:10 <joe_1> and m2 is 9e14 cents?
2937 2011-02-13 13:41:51 <sipa> USD M2 is 9e14 dollarcents
2938 2011-02-13 13:42:23 <sipa> current implementation-defined division limit of BTC is 2.1e15 microcents
2939 2011-02-13 13:42:33 <edcba> that's not a lot of margin
2940 2011-02-13 13:42:35 <ZenMondo> Woo I have earned a quater in my mining pool. this is fun!
2941 2011-02-13 13:42:49 <joe_1> the way i see it, it shouldn't be a real problem.
2942 2011-02-13 13:43:06 <sipa> it may not be enough if BTC would replace world currencies, no
2943 2011-02-13 13:43:23 <joe_1> when bitcoin really takes off, nobody will actually run clients. they'll have money in trusted real world entities that hold coins as collateral
2944 2011-02-13 13:43:54 <sipa> i hope you'll still be able to run the client yourself as an individual
2945 2011-02-13 13:43:58 <ZenMondo> that would introduce centralization and weaken one of the best things about Bitcoin.
2946 2011-02-13 13:44:03 <edcba> joe_1: if it takes off nobody *could* run clients
2947 2011-02-13 13:44:04 <glassresistor> btc;
2948 2011-02-13 13:44:11 <sipa> edcba: why no?
2949 2011-02-13 13:44:12 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: online wallet services
2950 2011-02-13 13:44:14 <sipa> not
2951 2011-02-13 13:44:24 <edcba> because there are still a lot of technical issues to scale
2952 2011-02-13 13:44:31 <glassresistor> how do i get the bot to print stats?
2953 2011-02-13 13:44:39 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
2954 2011-02-13 13:44:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107845 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 1018 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 11 hours, 29 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33603.27480987
2955 2011-02-13 13:45:44 <ZenMondo> I am a novice but I don't have a good feeling about online wallets.
2956 2011-02-13 13:45:54 <sipa> ZenMondo: then don't use them :)
2957 2011-02-13 13:46:05 <sipa> that's the nicest thing about bitcoin i think
2958 2011-02-13 13:46:30 <ZenMondo> So far I am not. What advantages does an online wallet have over a local one?
2959 2011-02-13 13:46:50 <ZenMondo> Ofcourse I have been using bitcoin for all of 12 hours now. haha
2960 2011-02-13 13:47:15 <edcba> what do you mean by local wallet ?
2961 2011-02-13 13:47:21 prax has joined
2962 2011-02-13 13:47:43 <sipa> edcba: the wallet a client on your own computer maintains
2963 2011-02-13 13:48:07 <sipa> compared to an online wallet like mybitcoin and some trading sites have
2964 2011-02-13 13:48:26 <edcba> ZenMondo: you don't have to trust anyone
2965 2011-02-13 13:49:17 <joe_1> edcba: what are the technical issues we need to overcome to allow a bitcoin world takeover
2966 2011-02-13 13:49:17 <sipa> ZenMondo: advantage: able to access your funds from everywhere, and no worries about things like backups (that is, as long as you do trust the wallet operator_
2967 2011-02-13 13:49:28 <Validus> or ppl stealing your cc info
2968 2011-02-13 13:50:09 <Validus> if you buy stuff online. i rather use a payment processor than my bank cards
2969 2011-02-13 13:50:22 <ZenMondo> I am trying to imagine a situation where I would be in a place I could make a bitcoin transaction and not being at my computer.
2970 2011-02-13 13:50:32 <edcba> joe_1: mainly transactions management i guess
2971 2011-02-13 13:50:53 <sipa> things like bitcoins on a smartcard
2972 2011-02-13 13:50:58 <ZenMondo> I mean I can imagine someday having a wallet on my phone and buying coca-cola in a brick and mortar store but that day is a ways off.
2973 2011-02-13 13:51:01 <Validus> like a paypal debit
2974 2011-02-13 13:51:19 <Validus> they already are trying tod o verified credit cards on phone apps
2975 2011-02-13 13:51:19 <edcba> if you want to pay everything in bitcoins that would generate too many transactions
2976 2011-02-13 13:51:24 <Validus> just its not very secure
2977 2011-02-13 13:51:31 <edcba> because as of now all clients handle all transactions
2978 2011-02-13 13:51:35 <BlueMatt> edcba: not true
2979 2011-02-13 13:51:48 <joe_1> the bitcoin client needs to show the private keys to your wallet coins so you can send them to other people without having the client with you.
2980 2011-02-13 13:52:10 <sipa> joe_1: export/import function for private keys, absolutely
2981 2011-02-13 13:52:10 <ZenMondo> you mean public key, surely
2982 2011-02-13 13:52:15 <edcba> BlueMatt: why ?
2983 2011-02-13 13:52:20 <BlueMatt> what is needed is a iphone/android client that takes a picture of a qr code (a bitcoin address encoded in it) and uses an rpc client to send funds
2984 2011-02-13 13:52:21 <sipa> but not for sending them to other people
2985 2011-02-13 13:52:49 <BlueMatt> edcba: slightly more data storage requirement but not more than is really reasonable
2986 2011-02-13 13:52:58 <joe_1> sipa: but i think that is a legitimate way to transfer coins.
2987 2011-02-13 13:53:05 <sipa> but not a trustable one
2988 2011-02-13 13:53:10 <sipa> i send you coins
2989 2011-02-13 13:53:13 <edcba> BlueMatt: i don't really fear storage
2990 2011-02-13 13:53:18 <sipa> by giving you a private key
2991 2011-02-13 13:53:18 <Validus> security trumps
2992 2011-02-13 13:53:20 <edcba> bandwidth...
2993 2011-02-13 13:53:33 <sipa> you check the funds are present
2994 2011-02-13 13:53:36 <sipa> we do a deal
2995 2011-02-13 13:53:44 <joe_1> no, i reissue through the network first.
2996 2011-02-13 13:53:53 <sipa> reissue?
2997 2011-02-13 13:54:04 <joe_1> send to self with a new public/private keypair
2998 2011-02-13 13:54:10 <sipa> ok fine
2999 2011-02-13 13:54:12 <BlueMatt> edcba: not really, the current client uses virtually nothing, and in the future, I'd hope, we would get more bandwidth from isps
3000 2011-02-13 13:54:40 <edcba> current client uses virtually nothing because not so many ppl use bitcoins
3001 2011-02-13 13:54:49 <edcba> and they are not using bitcoin as everyday use
3002 2011-02-13 13:55:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: edcba does have a point - if both the number of transactions and the number of connected clients goes up, it won't scale
3003 2011-02-13 13:55:18 <sipa> but there are ideas about clients that do no download and verify the whole blockchain
3004 2011-02-13 13:55:29 <edcba> i'm a bitcoin user and i paid 4x as much this morning in € than in btc :)
3005 2011-02-13 13:55:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: hard to make that secure
3006 2011-02-13 13:55:38 <edcba> (in # of tx)
3007 2011-02-13 13:55:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's the original intent
3008 2011-02-13 13:55:58 <sipa> the protocol is designed for that, it's just not implemented
3009 2011-02-13 13:56:22 <joe_1> Consider Alice wants to send money to Bob. Alice has to ask Bob for an address, Bob has to respond with an address, Alice then sends coins to Bob through client. With a private key transaction, Alice would simply email the private key to Bob and done.
3010 2011-02-13 13:56:24 <BlueMatt> ok yes, if btc was used for every transaction a home client wouldnt work, but it would scale well enough to large hardware
3011 2011-02-13 13:56:43 <BlueMatt> joe_1: woefully insecure
3012 2011-02-13 13:56:57 <sipa> joe_1: but transferring a private key never guarantees protection against double spening
3013 2011-02-13 13:57:08 <edcba> yes you could still use bitcoin for only transfering between banks of course
3014 2011-02-13 13:57:18 <joe_1> right, but the recipient re-sends the coins to self on a different address and only sends a product when that gets a couple confirmations.
3015 2011-02-13 13:57:19 <edcba> but i doubt it was the purpose of bitcoin :)
3016 2011-02-13 13:57:46 <sipa> joe_1: i see
3017 2011-02-13 13:57:58 <sipa> why the hassle?
3018 2011-02-13 13:59:01 <joe_1> if i want to send money to you right now, I would first have to ask you for your bitcoin address then send funds. Using my method, I would simply send you a private key.
3019 2011-02-13 13:59:01 <sipa> ok, more work for bob but less for alice
3020 2011-02-13 13:59:03 <BlueMatt> if btc were to replace $ now, the credit cards would still be a middle man, and could aggregate many of the transactions, plus physical currency, and it might have a chance of scaling, but home clients wouldnt work
3021 2011-02-13 13:59:25 <BlueMatt> joe_1: and i would spend your whole account no matter what you wanted to spend
3022 2011-02-13 13:59:57 <joe_1> no- the private key would be going with an address that's pre-fixed-up to only have the amount i want to send. and when i ask the client to give me that private key, the client makes sure not to use that in my wallet anymore.
3023 2011-02-13 14:00:29 <sipa> the client should not make sure not to use it anymore
3024 2011-02-13 14:00:35 <joe_1> your wallet is made up of many different coin chunks associated with various bitcoin addresses you've received payments from.
3025 2011-02-13 14:00:36 <sipa> what if the private key never arrives?
3026 2011-02-13 14:00:43 <BlueMatt> joe_1: then youve just made a transaction to fill the new account to the specified value, and given someone else the account
3027 2011-02-13 14:01:08 <BlueMatt> doesnt change anything really, just makes more work
3028 2011-02-13 14:01:16 <sipa> it does have one advantage
3029 2011-02-13 14:01:22 Hackbat has joined
3030 2011-02-13 14:01:24 <sipa> it only needs unidirectional comunication
3031 2011-02-13 14:02:30 <BlueMatt> but the lack of security, increased work and possibility of me "giving" you an account then using it for something else once I get the product is too high
3032 2011-02-13 14:02:37 <ZenMondo> If btc becomes ubiquitous currency so would portable electronic bitcoin wallets probably connected through wireless bandwidth (paid for with btc)
3033 2011-02-13 14:03:46 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: why add all the additional bandwidth and overhead of a p2p network on a phone, just make an rpc client on the phone and a network node elsewhere
3034 2011-02-13 14:04:10 <Validus> and if that did happen i hope to god it would all be heavily encrypted
3035 2011-02-13 14:04:19 <joe_1> blue: you give me a throwaway account, i clean it out to one of my own accounts immediately, then both parties can just forget all about that throwaway account.
3036 2011-02-13 14:04:28 <BlueMatt> Validus: the ssl on rpc would do fine
3037 2011-02-13 14:04:40 <Validus> its already been shown that you can stand next to someone in a line and retrieve their cc info from their phone app their trying to implement
3038 2011-02-13 14:05:06 <BlueMatt> Validus: so dont display the private key on the phone and dont display the rpc password and you are ok
3039 2011-02-13 14:05:24 <Validus> its not displaying thats the problem. its what it sends and having a sscanner to pick it up
3040 2011-02-13 14:05:32 <Validus> its same as sidejacking a network on wifi in a sense
3041 2011-02-13 14:06:04 <BlueMatt> Validus: thus require ssl with a properly signed key and you are fine
3042 2011-02-13 14:06:13 <glassresistor> is bitcoinmarket.com closed on sunday?
3043 2011-02-13 14:06:28 <BlueMatt> joe_1: yes ok could work, but the added inefficiency and need for strong security when sending the private key would make it hard
3044 2011-02-13 14:06:58 <BlueMatt> Validus: you never transmit the public key and the ssl hides the password, so youd be find
3045 2011-02-13 14:07:56 <BlueMatt> Validus: or if the network node is actually on the phone, you just have the private key there and never have to even use ssl, because the crypto on btc would provide enough security
3046 2011-02-13 14:08:04 <ZenMondo> I don't get why private keys would ever be sent anywhere. Thats what public keys are for. Transmitting and allowing others to encrypt one way to you.  Transmitting a private key is like taping a dollar bill to a postcard and thinking it will get to its recepient.
3047 2011-02-13 14:09:04 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: I agree, though joe_1's idea does only require one-way communication which is good.  Though Validus's point is only if the software is not implemented correctly
3048 2011-02-13 14:09:56 <ZenMondo> well part of bitcoin's strength I see is the trust dynamic by signing the coins and having other clients verify the chain.
3049 2011-02-13 14:09:59 <Validus> i never said it wasnt. i just said i hope it is
3050 2011-02-13 14:10:16 <ZenMondo> a direct connection gets rid of this trust metric.
3051 2011-02-13 14:10:29 <Validus> not really
3052 2011-02-13 14:11:03 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: only if the signed coins isnt checked by others
3053 2011-02-13 14:11:43 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3054 2011-02-13 14:11:58 <ZenMondo> and if you are xmiting a key directly not using the network how would the network verify the chain? Or am I missing something
3055 2011-02-13 14:12:14 [Noodles] has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
3056 2011-02-13 14:12:42 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: well you can send the coins to a node which then sends to the network, but yea it has to make it to the network somehow
3057 2011-02-13 14:13:08 <Validus> then you would also have to wait for it to be verified, could be instant. or could take a bit
3058 2011-02-13 14:14:03 RichardG has joined
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3060 2011-02-13 14:14:09 RichardG has joined
3061 2011-02-13 14:14:34 <ZenMondo> Well I could spend a coin before it was verified but thats not to say the person recieving it would trust it as such a coin could be double spent.
3062 2011-02-13 14:14:36 <BlueMatt> Validus: if you verify the coins using the same algo as the rest of the network, the chance of not getting the money is very low, after the 1st block its almost nothing (provided no one is creating bad blocks)
3063 2011-02-13 14:15:14 <Validus> well im just saying as i did a small transfer and it took about 15 mins for it to be verified
3064 2011-02-13 14:15:15 <BlueMatt> and even then, if you check the blocks using the same code, you would know to ignore those blocks
3065 2011-02-13 14:15:26 <Validus> imagine waiting in line for 15 mins for it to clear
3066 2011-02-13 14:15:40 <ZenMondo> right if one person was making bad blocks the rest of the network would catch it.
3067 2011-02-13 14:15:42 <sipa> if i want to pay a bread in a shop using bitcoin
3068 2011-02-13 14:16:00 <BlueMatt> Validus: for a small transfer it really doesnt need to be verified by a block, just check it using the same code as the rest of the network and you would have problems only very rarely
3069 2011-02-13 14:16:06 <sipa> the bill would be sent to my cellphone or whatever device (maybe a smartcard)
3070 2011-02-13 14:16:12 <sipa> i accept the payment
3071 2011-02-13 14:16:28 <sipa> my device creates the necessary transactions for the payment
3072 2011-02-13 14:16:50 <BlueMatt> Validus: obviously for large transactions, a block verification would be nice, but for coffee I'd trust a customer w/o a block
3073 2011-02-13 14:16:50 <sipa> those are sent back immediately (not using the btc network) to the shop
3074 2011-02-13 14:16:56 <sipa> the shop verifies the transactions
3075 2011-02-13 14:17:04 [Noodles] has joined
3076 2011-02-13 14:17:05 <sipa> and transmits them on the network
3077 2011-02-13 14:17:18 <sipa> as soon as that is done, the chance for a double spend is almost nihil
3078 2011-02-13 14:17:28 <BlueMatt> sipa: exactly
3079 2011-02-13 14:17:28 <sipa> and it does work immediatel
3080 2011-02-13 14:17:30 <sipa> y
3081 2011-02-13 14:18:15 <sipa> furthermore, anyone may sniff the packets between my device and the shop (though not modify them)
3082 2011-02-13 14:18:34 <sipa> they are worthless, except for the shop
3083 2011-02-13 14:18:49 <lfm> if you want quick payments you and the shopkeeper should both use something like mybitcoin.com
3084 2011-02-13 14:18:55 <ArtForz> that scheme only works for low-value payments
3085 2011-02-13 14:19:01 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3086 2011-02-13 14:19:37 <sipa> for larger payment the incentive to do lots of effort for creating a double-spend attack becomes more relevant
3087 2011-02-13 14:19:45 <ArtForz> yep
3088 2011-02-13 14:20:06 <davex___> ArtForz, have you ever had 5970's lock up your system soon after you overclock them?
3089 2011-02-13 14:20:11 <ArtForz> yes
3090 2011-02-13 14:20:18 <davex___> ArtForz, doesn't seem to be temp, that looks ok
3091 2011-02-13 14:20:26 <ArtForz> usually Oc pushed too far
3092 2011-02-13 14:20:30 <sipa> but then again, for larger payments you're maybe prepared to wait a bit more too
3093 2011-02-13 14:20:35 <ArtForz> or PSU not coping
3094 2011-02-13 14:20:41 <sipa> or use an escrow
3095 2011-02-13 14:20:43 <ArtForz> yep
3096 2011-02-13 14:20:52 <davex___> hmm, ok.  i tried 880, will try less.
3097 2011-02-13 14:21:46 <ArtForz> at stock V? good luck.
3098 2011-02-13 14:22:14 tjgillies_ has joined
3099 2011-02-13 14:22:15 <lfm> seems kinda obvious
3100 2011-02-13 14:22:30 tylergillies has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3101 2011-02-13 14:22:30 <ArtForz> at stock V I get >= 880 on 3 out of 56 5970 cores
3102 2011-02-13 14:22:58 <davex___> ah that's my problem
3103 2011-02-13 14:23:22 <ArtForz> start at 800 or so, work your way up from there
3104 2011-02-13 14:23:29 mtgox has joined
3105 2011-02-13 14:24:03 <lfm> just because some overclocker site reports they have acheived some clock rate means nothing for normal boards
3106 2011-02-13 14:24:22 <Validus> u shoudl go very small intervals and stress test it. then move up to the next
3107 2011-02-13 14:24:23 <lfm> and real application
3108 2011-02-13 14:24:24 <Validus> repeat
3109 2011-02-13 14:24:40 <ArtForz> well, iirc most OCers dont report clocks >830 or so on 5970s @ stock V
3110 2011-02-13 14:24:50 <ArtForz> all the 900+ OCs are at 1.1625V core
3111 2011-02-13 14:25:14 <ArtForz> ... and probably not running the card at furmark-esque load 24/7 ...
3112 2011-02-13 14:25:52 <ArtForz> otherwise they'd have a pretty dead 5970 pretty soon with the stock cooler
3113 2011-02-13 14:32:44 <luke-jr> midnightmagic_: seriously, that isn't even funny.
3114 2011-02-13 14:34:09 <lfm> ;;seen midnightmagic
3115 2011-02-13 14:34:09 <gribble> midnightmagic was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 17 hours, 55 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <midnightmagic> top-down law and order have no place in bitcoin.
3116 2011-02-13 14:34:24 <lfm> ;;seen midnightmagic_
3117 2011-02-13 14:34:24 <gribble> midnightmagic_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 8 hours, 4 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <midnightmagic_> dissipate: Art for example says he has some kind of CAL core that runs on his 5970s..
3118 2011-02-13 14:34:59 <luke-jr> ;;last --from midnightmagic_ --with luke-jr
3119 2011-02-13 14:34:59 <gribble> Error: I couldn't find a message matching that criteria in my history of 1000 messages.
3120 2011-02-13 14:35:34 <lfm> luke-jr:  <- is halucinating again
3121 2011-02-13 14:36:11 <luke-jr> nah, it was just over 1000 lines ago
3122 2011-02-13 14:36:19 <luke-jr> I had to open my log to see the highlight
3123 2011-02-13 14:39:01 gmci has joined
3124 2011-02-13 14:39:08 gmci has left ("Leaving...")
3125 2011-02-13 14:40:07 <MartianW> Has anyone experimented with the Forth scripting or any kind of custom transactions?
3126 2011-02-13 14:40:27 dishwara has quit (Changing host)
3127 2011-02-13 14:40:27 dishwara has joined
3128 2011-02-13 14:40:57 <lfm> doth think so
3129 2011-02-13 14:41:10 <lfm> dont
3130 2011-02-13 14:42:13 Tritonio has joined
3131 2011-02-13 14:42:15 <MartianW> The current client doesn't exactly allow for control over your funds and how they're stored.
3132 2011-02-13 14:43:49 <Validus> thats why i assumed they stressed backups so much
3133 2011-02-13 14:44:37 <MartianW> I suppose nobody really cares.
3134 2011-02-13 14:44:48 <MartianW> *nobody non
3135 2011-02-13 14:44:50 <MartianW> -hackerish
3136 2011-02-13 14:45:15 dishwara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3137 2011-02-13 14:45:44 dishwara has joined
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3139 2011-02-13 14:48:33 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
3140 2011-02-13 14:48:46 <lfm> about forth? no, I havnt heard much about anyone using forth for years
3141 2011-02-13 14:50:01 <MartianW> lfm, isn't there a Forth like scripting for claiming transactions?
3142 2011-02-13 14:50:36 <sipa> yes
3143 2011-02-13 14:51:23 <lfm> dont think so.the sc ripting in the transaction records is a custom script, not really related to forth at all that I know
3144 2011-02-13 14:51:44 <MartianW> It's weird that nobody uses the scripting much, considering the fun stuff you can do with it.
3145 2011-02-13 14:51:45 <sipa> it's stack=based
3146 2011-02-13 14:51:52 <sipa> that makes it forth-like :p
3147 2011-02-13 14:52:15 <lfm> sipa thats just silly
3148 2011-02-13 14:52:21 <sipa> sorry :)
3149 2011-02-13 14:53:33 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3150 2011-02-13 15:01:49 ramu has joined
3151 2011-02-13 15:03:13 RichardG has joined
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3153 2011-02-13 15:03:21 RichardG has joined
3154 2011-02-13 15:04:07 <edcba> MartianW: fun like ?
3155 2011-02-13 15:06:30 <MartianW> Requiring multiple keypairs, requiring no keypairs and so on.
3156 2011-02-13 15:07:36 <sipa> the current client doesn4
3157 2011-02-13 15:07:54 <sipa> the current client doesn't even allow such transaction to get in the block chain iirc
3158 2011-02-13 15:08:23 <sipa> but once in the chain they're accepted
3159 2011-02-13 15:09:08 <MartianW> Aww.
3160 2011-02-13 15:10:52 <RichardG> correcting stats from yesterday
3161 2011-02-13 15:10:59 <RichardG> pentium dual e5700, 4gb, 7 x64, cpu-miner
3162 2011-02-13 15:11:11 <RichardG> 1250-1350 khashes per thread using cryptopp_asm32
3163 2011-02-13 15:12:28 ramu has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3164 2011-02-13 15:14:42 <RichardG> either thread may drop down to 950 khashes and go back up though
3165 2011-02-13 15:15:05 <Validus> thats what i put it on getting about the same
3166 2011-02-13 15:19:21 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
3167 2011-02-13 15:20:04 RichardG has quit (Quit: QUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII T)
3168 2011-02-13 15:20:30 gp5st1 has joined
3169 2011-02-13 15:21:31 <gp5st1> Hello. http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2129.0 I'm not sure I understand this. Does this mean the client or the documentation is broken?
3170 2011-02-13 15:23:10 <gp5st1> also, the 3rd entry on that page doesn't make sense to me.  having an OP_DROP statement is something that client would understand, so it's not signed in a different way.  why is it being used as an example for signing something it doesn't understand
3171 2011-02-13 15:23:38 <gp5st1> and what i meant in my original msg today is that the docs clearly state that extra information can be added to a transaction with an OP_DROP
3172 2011-02-13 15:30:15 <gp5st1> i understand the concern, but I see uses for arbitrary messages (not just my own). might a better solution be to limit a script to 1 OP_DROP of max 100bytes and change the spec to say that nothing can be on the stack but a true for a script to be valid?
3173 2011-02-13 15:31:14 <luke-jr> gp5st1: still wastes 100 bytes
3174 2011-02-13 15:33:06 <gp5st1> i thought the standard tx was on the order of a k
3175 2011-02-13 15:35:00 Kiba has joined
3176 2011-02-13 15:35:06 <gp5st1> i'm actually thinking more a long the lines of a general receipt system
3177 2011-02-13 15:35:17 <gp5st1> i'm still working out the fine details, but I think it's possible
3178 2011-02-13 15:36:35 <gp5st1> i guess not receipt per-say
3179 2011-02-13 15:36:51 <gp5st1> as the tx is always known to exist
3180 2011-02-13 15:37:07 <lfm> gp5st1: no, for instance this one... block size: 3051  numTx: 12
3181 2011-02-13 15:37:33 <gp5st1> oh, maybe i read that a block is on the order of a k
3182 2011-02-13 15:37:57 <lfm> a block with no regular txn is 216 bytes
3183 2011-02-13 15:38:42 <MartianW> Why are transactions identified by a hash in the inputs of the next transaction?
3184 2011-02-13 15:38:56 <MartianW> Doesn't that make searching more difficult?
3185 2011-02-13 15:39:14 bossweld has joined
3186 2011-02-13 15:39:14 <lfm> MartianW: thats what makes them a chain
3187 2011-02-13 15:39:32 <lfm> its also what organizes forks
3188 2011-02-13 15:40:15 <gp5st1> lfm: luke-jr: does this mean the wiki should be changed?
3189 2011-02-13 15:40:24 <gp5st1> the docs talking about OP_DROP?
3190 2011-02-13 15:40:30 <luke-jr> gp5st1: no
3191 2011-02-13 15:40:36 <luke-jr> the wiki documents protocol, not policy.
3192 2011-02-13 15:40:51 <edcba> MartianW: when searching for somethin hashing is what makes it easier to search ie hashtables
3193 2011-02-13 15:40:54 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
3194 2011-02-13 15:40:56 <lfm> dunno, basiclly no one is using special scripts, no need really
3195 2011-02-13 15:41:10 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3196 2011-02-13 15:41:17 <gp5st1> lfm: but if that didn't exist in the docs, it would kill discussion about it
3197 2011-02-13 15:41:18 <edcba> making use of scripts is hard
3198 2011-02-13 15:41:24 <bossweld> I just cloned the source from the git repository.  Are the library versions (for boost etc.) listed in the build-*.txt files correct?
3199 2011-02-13 15:41:43 <edcba> i still struggle to find a good usecase of scripts :)
3200 2011-02-13 15:41:58 <lfm> bossweld: sure
3201 2011-02-13 15:42:02 <gp5st1> from that forum post i'm still unsure what a non-standard tx is
3202 2011-02-13 15:42:25 <edcba> and satoshi didn't share his vision of bitcoin evolution
3203 2011-02-13 15:42:35 <lfm> gp5st1: like at block explorer for the standard scripts, anything else is nonstandard
3204 2011-02-13 15:42:56 <bossweld> lfm: thanks. I did notice that the versions differ between platforms.  For example boost 1.37 for unix, boost 1.42.1 on windows.
3205 2011-02-13 15:43:01 <gp5st1> lfm: but how is that defined? by a template script?
3206 2011-02-13 15:43:21 <lfm> gp5 i guess so
3207 2011-02-13 15:44:05 <gp5st1> see, i wish that were flushed out better
3208 2011-02-13 15:44:41 <gp5st1> (i know i could look at the source :-\)
3209 2011-02-13 15:44:44 <bossweld> Funnily enough, there is no boost version 1.42.1 in Boost's sourceforge repository...
3210 2011-02-13 15:45:16 <luke-jr> gp5st1: non-standard tx is just a tx that doesn't do the same thing every other tx does
3211 2011-02-13 15:45:33 <gp5st1> luke-jr: still, that's not a definition, that's an explanation
3212 2011-02-13 15:45:39 <lfm> bossweld: I think 1.42 or 1.43 work ok, try as close as you can get
3213 2011-02-13 15:45:54 <luke-jr> gp5st1: that is the definition
3214 2011-02-13 15:45:56 <bossweld> lfm: will do, thanks.
3215 2011-02-13 15:46:12 <gp5st1> luke-jr: no, it's not.  i wouldn't be able to take that and write a function to do that
3216 2011-02-13 15:46:30 <gp5st1> i mean...i could do baysian analysis on the entire block chain, but i don't think that's what you mean
3217 2011-02-13 15:46:43 <luke-jr> that would be cool
3218 2011-02-13 15:46:55 <luke-jr> gp5st1: just look at the transactions and see
3219 2011-02-13 15:47:16 <lfm> gp5st1: there are only 4 different scripts actually use in production, you can easily see what they are by examples
3220 2011-02-13 15:47:20 <gp5st1> luke-jr: that's still not an answer
3221 2011-02-13 15:47:27 <gp5st1> but that's not an answer
3222 2011-02-13 15:47:32 <gp5st1> is it template based?
3223 2011-02-13 15:47:39 <luke-jr> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <const> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
3224 2011-02-13 15:47:43 <gp5st1> are there stricter rules on the scripts than the wiki says
3225 2011-02-13 15:47:50 <lfm> ok there is no answer, it is impossible, give up now or forfiet your sanity
3226 2011-02-13 15:47:53 <luke-jr> lfm: there's others?
3227 2011-02-13 15:48:42 <luke-jr> gp5st1: note that you *can* have any arbitrary script. you might just have trouble getting someone else to put it in a block
3228 2011-02-13 15:48:46 <lfm> 2 different input scripts and 2 ouput
3229 2011-02-13 15:48:57 <gp5st1> luke-jr: lfm: i'm sorry. i prob should just look at the code if i want to know.  I'm looking for a specification of the isStandardTransaction function
3230 2011-02-13 15:49:26 <luke-jr> gp5st1: there is no specification, because that's not part of the standards
3231 2011-02-13 15:49:30 <lfm> gp5 yes, the code is still beta, the documentation is not finished yet either
3232 2011-02-13 15:49:36 <luke-jr> that's a matter of policy, subject to the whims of the end user in theory
3233 2011-02-13 15:49:50 <gp5st1> luke-jr: standards are specified, that's what the policy is
3234 2011-02-13 15:50:01 <gp5st1> specification means someone else can take it and write it
3235 2011-02-13 15:50:05 <luke-jr> gp5st1: BitCoin differentiates between standards and policy.
3236 2011-02-13 15:50:05 <gp5st1> lfm: ok
3237 2011-02-13 15:50:13 <gp5st1> lfm sorry to drag this on then
3238 2011-02-13 15:50:34 <luke-jr> gp5st1: IsStandardTransaction is something that *should* be in the settings dialog of a proper client
3239 2011-02-13 15:50:39 <lfm> I understand you are just trying to understand
3240 2011-02-13 15:50:39 <gp5st1> luke-jr: spec is not a standard
3241 2011-02-13 15:51:32 <lfm> gp5st1: if you think it is important maybe you should write it up for us
3242 2011-02-13 15:52:09 Ljrn900 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3243 2011-02-13 15:52:13 <gp5st1> lfm: i'm not even sure what the other 3 tx are:-\ I don't know these tech details as well as i should
3244 2011-02-13 15:53:11 <lfm> ok 2 input type are the regular TXN and the block gen txn inputs. 2 ouputs are one with a btc address and one with a btc key
3245 2011-02-13 15:53:32 <gp5st1> if i could write a btc client, then i'd be more than happy to, but i wouldn't be able to w/o first consulting the docs heavily\
3246 2011-02-13 15:55:21 <gp5st1> i think i'm starting to understand some of the oposition to the idea of using it to store additional information
3247 2011-02-13 15:55:35 <gp5st1> including having high value transactions overtaking normal tx
3248 2011-02-13 15:56:04 <luke-jr> Send to address output script template: "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <const> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
3249 2011-02-13 15:56:11 <lfm> I think txn with fees have priority now
3250 2011-02-13 15:56:16 <luke-jr> Generation output template: "<const> OP_CHECKSIG"
3251 2011-02-13 15:56:23 <luke-jr> Generation input template: (null)
3252 2011-02-13 15:56:54 <luke-jr> Normal send template: "<const> <const>"
3253 2011-02-13 15:56:57 * luke-jr wonders why 2 consts
3254 2011-02-13 15:57:18 <gp5st1> lfm: they do, but if you have other systems using btc with much higher tx fee, then it could become an issue
3255 2011-02-13 15:58:13 <lfm> ya wouldnt want dsn stuff to block regular txn
3256 2011-02-13 15:59:43 <lfm> the whole system is kinda balanced and throwing in alien stuff could upset balance
3257 2011-02-13 16:00:04 <gp5st1> well, i wouldn't want too many dns blocks to blocktoo many reg tx. which x6763 mentioned to me and is sinking in more now
3258 2011-02-13 16:02:43 <gp5st1> i mean, a na\:{i}ve answer would be to specify a tx type and have valid blocks only have one non standard tx, but i feel like that's a bandaid, not a solution
3259 2011-02-13 16:03:31 <lfm> gp5 if it was only a matter of a txn once every few hours or something perhaps no one would mind but if every dns "authority" is gonna throw something in every 10 mines it could get to swamp every thing else
3260 2011-02-13 16:04:44 <gp5st1> yes, that's my concern as well
3261 2011-02-13 16:05:00 <gp5st1> and there isn't an authority in my protocol but the btc chain;)
3262 2011-02-13 16:05:05 MartianW has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3263 2011-02-13 16:05:17 <gp5st1> but no, the implications of many high value tx are sinking into me
3264 2011-02-13 16:05:19 MartianW has joined
3265 2011-02-13 16:06:20 Necr0s has joined
3266 2011-02-13 16:06:27 <lfm> what do you mean by high value? how much are you thinking there?
3267 2011-02-13 16:06:57 <x6763> lfm: they'd be worth more than normal bitcoin money transactions
3268 2011-02-13 16:07:01 <gp5st1> i'm not sure, that's what we're fiiguring out
3269 2011-02-13 16:07:10 <gp5st1> lfm: what x6763 said
3270 2011-02-13 16:07:23 <lfm> so like fee of 0.02?
3271 2011-02-13 16:07:33 <x6763> lfm: preferably subject to market forces...can't predict the fee
3272 2011-02-13 16:07:36 <gp5st1> i was actually thinking ~ 10btc or more
3273 2011-02-13 16:07:46 <gp5st1> but....that's to be determined how that's determined
3274 2011-02-13 16:08:31 <lfm> ok that is high
3275 2011-02-13 16:08:36 <gp5st1> lfm: well, i was hoping it'd be around 10, but as x6763 we want it to be subject to a market, but not sure how to do that
3276 2011-02-13 16:08:49 <gp5st1> lfm: we want to make spam expensive
3277 2011-02-13 16:08:59 <gp5st1> but normal purchase not bad
3278 2011-02-13 16:09:06 <gp5st1> but....who do you pay if there is no authority?
3279 2011-02-13 16:09:28 <lfm> pay miners, make it all "fee"
3280 2011-02-13 16:09:41 <gp5st1> maybe we can make it a present and pay the last 10 ppl in the chain:-p
3281 2011-02-13 16:09:56 <gp5st1> that's what we planned to do
3282 2011-02-13 16:10:01 <gp5st1> that's why the tx fee was high
3283 2011-02-13 16:10:12 <lfm> to make it a fee you just leave out the txn outputs
3284 2011-02-13 16:10:38 <gp5st1> but then once it takes off as i hope it does, i don't want to have tons of really high value tx over take normal ones, as i kind of see btc running well a high priority as i think it's needed as well
3285 2011-02-13 16:10:55 <gp5st1> i know, but a 10btc tx fee would be really high
3286 2011-02-13 16:10:59 <gp5st1> and would overtake normal tx
3287 2011-02-13 16:11:11 <lfm> yup
3288 2011-02-13 16:11:37 <gp5st1> i don't want that
3289 2011-02-13 16:12:00 <gp5st1> like i said one or two a block with an extra 50-100 bytes max might not be too bad, but i feel it's more of a bandaid than a solution
3290 2011-02-13 16:12:01 <x6763> the way that i've thought to prevent dns transactions from pricing out normal bitcoin transactions is increasing the block size limit by maybe another 500,000 bytes, and then allowing dns transactions to use take up no more than 500,000 bytes
3291 2011-02-13 16:12:57 <x6763> dns transactions with a single input might be about 350 bytes, which would allow for over 200,000 dns transactions in a 24-hour period
3292 2011-02-13 16:12:58 <lfm> x6763: any txn with any fee would already be allowed to excede block size limit afaik
3293 2011-02-13 16:13:03 <x6763> compare this to: http://www.dailychanges.com/
3294 2011-02-13 16:13:42 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3295 2011-02-13 16:13:44 <x6763> lfm: i didn't know that (there's so many rules i haven't found out about yet....i wish they were all documented better)
3296 2011-02-13 16:14:14 <lfm> x6763: theyre still changing
3297 2011-02-13 16:14:46 <x6763> yeah
3298 2011-02-13 16:15:05 <gp5st1> lfm: the nice thing about btc when we first thought about this (to me at least) was the ability to pay someone random for it, but that now seems to be the downside
3299 2011-02-13 16:15:24 <lfm> well dns has been around since the prehistory of the internet, bitcoin is just 2 years old
3300 2011-02-13 16:15:35 <gp5st1> ?
3301 2011-02-13 16:15:45 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3302 2011-02-13 16:15:59 <gp5st1> i figured 40 extra bytes for a hefty fee sounded good, but...:-\
3303 2011-02-13 16:16:03 <lfm> hardly surprizing dns is documented better
3304 2011-02-13 16:16:19 <gp5st1> oh, we're not talking about that
3305 2011-02-13 16:16:25 <gp5st1> we're not really using the dns standard
3306 2011-02-13 16:16:34 <gp5st1> except for possible name restrictions
3307 2011-02-13 16:17:44 Necr0s_ has joined
3308 2011-02-13 16:17:53 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3309 2011-02-13 16:18:20 Lachesis has joined
3310 2011-02-13 16:21:24 Cusipzzz has joined
3311 2011-02-13 16:28:05 <hozer> if I have a running bitcoind, can I get the gui client to connect to it? bitcoin -connect localhost does not work as I expected
3312 2011-02-13 16:28:15 <ArtForz> no
3313 2011-02-13 16:28:53 <sipa> it's either the gui or bitcoind
3314 2011-02-13 16:29:17 <Necr0s_> It's too bad those weren't make into seperate programs.
3315 2011-02-13 16:29:36 <hozer> I will have to start digging around in the code... I want to make a version for HP WebOS
3316 2011-02-13 16:30:21 <Necr0s_> Or having the gui be a web interface served by the daemon.
3317 2011-02-13 16:30:36 <hozer> but it seems like having all the blocks stored might be a bit of a challenge on a mobile device
3318 2011-02-13 16:31:02 <ArtForz> yes, having a fat gui client feels wrong
3319 2011-02-13 16:31:19 <hozer> Necr0s_: that wil be effectively what I would do to make it work on WebOS
3320 2011-02-13 16:31:53 <ArtForz> I think long term the plan is extending RPC to export all GUI client functionality
3321 2011-02-13 16:32:08 <Necr0s_> Sounds like a win.
3322 2011-02-13 16:32:31 <hozer> is there any way to reduce the storage space requirements for the block chain?
3323 2011-02-13 16:32:50 <gp5st1> hozer: you can prune it, but only for certain cases
3324 2011-02-13 16:33:04 <gp5st1> don't know if it's implemented though
3325 2011-02-13 16:33:15 <hozer> is there a maximum size?
3326 2011-02-13 16:35:08 <gp5st1> i don't believe so
3327 2011-02-13 16:36:11 <sipa> the block chain is essentially a list of unredeemed transaction outputs, grouped together in blocks
3328 2011-02-13 16:36:15 <sipa> at least
3329 2011-02-13 16:36:35 <Necr0s_> cd ~/Library/Application\ Support/
3330 2011-02-13 16:36:36 <Necr0s_> tar -jcvf Bitcoin.tbz Bitcoin
3331 2011-02-13 16:36:40 <Necr0s_> du -sh Bitcoin*
3332 2011-02-13 16:36:43 <Necr0s_> 194M	Bitcoin
3333 2011-02-13 16:36:44 <Necr0s_> 101M	Bitcoin.tbz
3334 2011-02-13 16:36:58 <sipa> so its size it at least the storage requirement for all unredeemed outputs
3335 2011-02-13 16:37:21 <Necr0s_> I would say there is at least one way to reduce the storage requirements.
3336 2011-02-13 16:38:16 <hozer> now... how does this grow over time?
3337 2011-02-13 16:39:02 <hozer> ~ 256M of flash is not unreasonable for a decent smartphone these days
3338 2011-02-13 16:39:25 <Lachesis> hey, is there any way i could check the version of a running bitcoind
3339 2011-02-13 16:40:20 <Necr0s_> Is there really any reason to hang on to older parts of the chain once they have been validated, other than for servic them to peers?
3340 2011-02-13 16:40:26 <Necr0s_> serving
3341 2011-02-13 16:41:47 <lfm> currently my .bitcoin dir is 429 MB
3342 2011-02-13 16:42:05 <Necr0s_> Interesting.
3343 2011-02-13 16:42:12 <Necr0s_> I wonder what all's in there.
3344 2011-02-13 16:42:20 <Necr0s_> I quite a few sizable files.
3345 2011-02-13 16:42:32 <lfm> that includes all block chain, bd indexes and debug.log
3346 2011-02-13 16:42:42 <lfm> db indexes
3347 2011-02-13 16:43:07 <Necr0s_> But why is yours more than twice the size of mine?
3348 2011-02-13 16:43:09 <lfm> plus wallet.dat address.dat
3349 2011-02-13 16:43:24 <lfm> mine is older with more log file maybe
3350 2011-02-13 16:43:45 <Necr0s_> mmm, logfile...
3351 2011-02-13 16:44:28 <Necr0s_> Sure is verbose.
3352 2011-02-13 16:44:46 <Necr0s_> And never rotated or anything, it would seem.
3353 2011-02-13 16:44:47 <lfm> the block chain itself is in blk0001.dat at 76MB
3354 2011-02-13 16:45:37 <Necr0s_> And the 58MB index...
3355 2011-02-13 16:45:55 <Necr0s_> And all these __db.00n files...what are they?
3356 2011-02-13 16:46:01 <lfm> most sane people use a hard drive whith several GB of space so it is not a concern
3357 2011-02-13 16:46:38 <ArtForz> db transaction log files
3358 2011-02-13 16:46:45 <Necr0s_> For a desktop that's sane, sure, but for a mobile platform it's more of an issue.
3359 2011-02-13 16:47:22 <lfm> $10 thumb drives are 4 GB nowadays afaik
3360 2011-02-13 16:48:31 <lfm> why f*** arounds with 256MB?
3361 2011-02-13 16:48:45 <MartianW> lfm, if you're Amish. ;-)
3362 2011-02-13 16:50:33 <lfm> MartianW: I guess so, g*d decreed thou shalt not fiddle with any tech newer than 5 years of age
3363 2011-02-13 16:50:35 <Kiba> crazy traffic these day
3364 2011-02-13 16:51:31 <Kiba> we might break all time download record this month
3365 2011-02-13 16:52:25 <MartianW> I think there may be a bug with the Testnet.
3366 2011-02-13 16:52:34 <lfm> only one?
3367 2011-02-13 16:52:35 <MartianW> For fun I tried starting bitcoin connected to it.
3368 2011-02-13 16:52:46 <MartianW> Now it seems I'm generating every block.
3369 2011-02-13 16:52:53 <lfm> wtg
3370 2011-02-13 16:53:01 <Kiba> connection problem?
3371 2011-02-13 16:53:06 <Kiba> SMF is offline?
3372 2011-02-13 16:53:27 dust_ has joined
3373 2011-02-13 16:53:29 <MartianW> But they are not showing up on the Block Explorer for Testnet.
3374 2011-02-13 16:53:33 <lfm> MartianW: whats your hash rate?
3375 2011-02-13 16:53:53 <lfm> MartianW: what version bitcoin are you using?
3376 2011-02-13 16:54:14 <MartianW> lfm, 2000 K/Hash and 3.19. 32 bit for Linux.
3377 2011-02-13 16:54:39 <lfm> 0.30.20 has started a new tesnet block chain. that is what the blcok explorer is showing
3378 2011-02-13 16:54:40 <MartianW> I think it's not downloading the blocks, as my block count is at 11, and I've generated 11 blocks.
3379 2011-02-13 16:54:51 <MartianW> Ah.
3380 2011-02-13 16:54:52 <Kiba> BITCOIN FORUM DOWN!
3381 2011-02-13 16:54:56 * Kiba panics like crazy
3382 2011-02-13 16:55:00 <MartianW> I've started my very own bitcoin then. :-D
3383 2011-02-13 16:55:04 <lfm> kiba, not for me
3384 2011-02-13 16:55:10 local has joined
3385 2011-02-13 16:55:19 <MartianW> It's very lonely. :-(
3386 2011-02-13 16:55:20 <Kiba> it is for me
3387 2011-02-13 16:55:38 <lfm> kiba oh maybe it is, it was up a couple minutes ago
3388 2011-02-13 16:55:40 <TheAncientGoat> Kiba: Make Bitcoin based forum system!
3389 2011-02-13 16:56:04 <Kiba> memory problem again?
3390 2011-02-13 16:56:07 <lfm> TheAncientGoat: iiiiiieeeee! no!
3391 2011-02-13 16:56:11 <Kiba> Sirius: FORUM DOWN!
3392 2011-02-13 16:56:33 <hozer> I would really start worrying if IRC was down
3393 2011-02-13 16:56:37 <lfm> kiba prolly just down for maint
3394 2011-02-13 16:57:12 <Kiba> lfm: he would have told us soon!
3395 2011-02-13 16:57:36 <lfm> not just forum, whole www.bitcoin.org
3396 2011-02-13 16:57:54 <Kiba> memory problem again?
3397 2011-02-13 16:58:09 <hozer> what's it hosted on?
3398 2011-02-13 16:58:12 <MartianW> Slashdotted?
3399 2011-02-13 16:58:15 <lfm> kiba, I dont remember
3400 2011-02-13 16:58:16 <Kiba>  linode
3401 2011-02-13 16:58:28 <Kiba> MartianW: we already got slashdot traffic
3402 2011-02-13 16:58:56 <lfm> ya could be a hardware lock up
3403 2011-02-13 16:59:28 <hozer> as in one of Linode's VM servers locked up?
3404 2011-02-13 17:00:08 <TheAncientGoat> lfm: Yes, I was silly... The obvious thing to do is to make a bitcoin-backed HTTP protocol :D
3405 2011-02-13 17:00:37 <TheAncientGoat> lfm: Then we can do forums by mean of course!
3406 2011-02-13 17:01:15 <lfm> I agree, 10 confirmation of each txn should be fast enuf for anyone
3407 2011-02-13 17:01:47 BlueMatt has joined
3408 2011-02-13 17:02:14 <hozer> any good protocol docs that aren't hosted on bitcoin.org? I want to read ;)
3409 2011-02-13 17:02:16 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
3410 2011-02-13 17:03:11 gp5st1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3411 2011-02-13 17:03:14 <lfm> hozer if you're bored you could read the irc logs. I think half the official btc docs are only there anyway
3412 2011-02-13 17:03:44 llama has joined
3413 2011-02-13 17:06:05 <local> isn't the wiki off site now?
3414 2011-02-13 17:06:22 <lfm> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/
3415 2011-02-13 17:06:48 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3416 2011-02-13 17:06:56 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3417 2011-02-13 17:07:03 molecular has joined
3418 2011-02-13 17:07:15 <local> thx
3419 2011-02-13 17:08:40 sabalaba has joined
3420 2011-02-13 17:10:34 <hozer> lfm: HAH
3421 2011-02-13 17:10:41 <hozer> I am looking at http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2005/12/bit-gold.html
3422 2011-02-13 17:13:52 <lfm> hozer yes exactly. I think that is the sort of stuff Saoshi was reading when he created bitcoin
3423 2011-02-13 17:17:36 MingusDew has quit (Quit: http://folding.stanford.edu/)
3424 2011-02-13 17:18:02 <hozer> I'm trying to figure out what happens when all 21M tokens are issued
3425 2011-02-13 17:18:28 <local> a party
3426 2011-02-13 17:18:55 <hozer> hah, but does the inflation just stop , or deflate, or what?
3427 2011-02-13 17:19:02 <lfm> hozer not much I expect, not till 2160 or something
3428 2011-02-13 17:19:32 <Necr0s_> Probably a new hash seed value or somesuch, with a difficulty scale adjusted for the times, and a whole new mining operation begins.
3429 2011-02-13 17:19:39 <lfm> not generation will be pretty insignificant long before that
3430 2011-02-13 17:19:40 <local> it depends on whether the number of goods and services offered for it is growing or shrinking
3431 2011-02-13 17:19:49 <lfm> note, generation will be pretty insignificant long before that
3432 2011-02-13 17:19:55 <local> people will still be mining because of fees
3433 2011-02-13 17:20:18 <hozer> ah, good
3434 2011-02-13 17:20:44 <hozer> do the current miners only generate, or do fees too?
3435 2011-02-13 17:20:52 <Necr0s_> So we would have the "legacy" coins of today, and those from the new system, which would have their own valuation and other attributes.
3436 2011-02-13 17:21:01 <Necr0s_> NBTC.
3437 2011-02-13 17:21:11 <local> there will be a nice smooth transition for all (nearly) generation rewards to mostly, then all, fees
3438 2011-02-13 17:21:15 <lfm> hozer: fees to but fees are insignificant
3439 2011-02-13 17:21:24 <hozer> that's what I figured, there would basically be a fork
3440 2011-02-13 17:21:52 <hozer> lfm: but if there's suddenly a 20 billion bitcoin goods & services exchange, fees could be significant
3441 2011-02-13 17:22:06 <Necr0s_> That's just my theory though.
3442 2011-02-13 17:22:14 <lfm> note in about 2060 or so block value will be less than 0.01 btc
3443 2011-02-13 17:22:38 <hozer> now, is the hash calculation memory bound or cpu bound?
3444 2011-02-13 17:22:53 <lfm> cpu bound
3445 2011-02-13 17:23:00 <lfm> hardly any memory needed
3446 2011-02-13 17:23:03 <Necr0s_> Sure appears to be *pu-bound.
3447 2011-02-13 17:23:22 <lfm> definatly runs in lvl 1 cache
3448 2011-02-13 17:23:30 <Necr0s_> And I'd think if there was a time/memory trade-off to be had, a la rainbow tables, someone would have done it by now.
3449 2011-02-13 17:23:54 <hozer> I have a theory that data movement is the fundamental benchmark... so what you are really benchmarking is how fast the CPU moves bits around in L1 cache
3450 2011-02-13 17:24:31 <lfm> there was someone a while back was experimenting with some sort of memory based hashing version. not sure what happened to it
3451 2011-02-13 17:25:08 <hozer> the theory is something like this: "Computation is free, getting data to compute elements is not"
3452 2011-02-13 17:25:45 RichardG has joined
3453 2011-02-13 17:25:51 <hozer> but when the data set of your problem fits in L1 cache, you can't really tell the difference between the computation and data movement parts
3454 2011-02-13 17:25:54 RichardG has quit (Changing host)
3455 2011-02-13 17:25:54 RichardG has joined
3456 2011-02-13 17:25:55 <lfm> what theory is that based on?
3457 2011-02-13 17:26:16 <hozer> lfm: based on my observations of performance benchmarking
3458 2011-02-13 17:26:26 <hozer> and maintaining the NetPIPE benchmark
3459 2011-02-13 17:26:32 <RichardG> in cpuminer with more than one thread, is the khash counter displayed global or per thread?
3460 2011-02-13 17:26:47 <lfm> RichardG: global
3461 2011-02-13 17:27:07 <lfm> richard you can see it by restricting it to 1 thread
3462 2011-02-13 17:27:08 <RichardG> oh so that means running two threads on my pentium dual core is doing nothing
3463 2011-02-13 17:27:25 <hozer> lfm: bitspjoule.org
3464 2011-02-13 17:28:10 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3465 2011-02-13 17:28:33 <hozer> lfm: I keep looking for a way to articulate computation and data movement in terms of thermodynamics or energy
3466 2011-02-13 17:29:23 <lfm> hoser like the reversable computing which theoreticlly can be zero energy?
3467 2011-02-13 17:29:43 <hozer> sort-of
3468 2011-02-13 17:30:13 <hozer> my impression is reversible computing can be zero energy if you want to wait forever for the result ;)
3469 2011-02-13 17:30:31 <lfm> theory is that it is the erasing of data that requires energy
3470 2011-02-13 17:30:46 <hozer> ooh, that may be it
3471 2011-02-13 17:31:00 <lfm> when you write a word its erasing what was there
3472 2011-02-13 17:31:07 <hozer> and when you move data, you 'erase' what was there before
3473 2011-02-13 17:31:25 <hozer> in reversible computing, does computation count as erasure?
3474 2011-02-13 17:31:36 <lfm> reversable computing never erases data
3475 2011-02-13 17:31:45 RichardG has joined
3476 2011-02-13 17:32:05 <RichardG> sorry lfm got a BSOD, hope it gets fixed soon
3477 2011-02-13 17:32:08 <lfm> just shuffles it around
3478 2011-02-13 17:32:20 <RichardG> so that means running it in two threads is giving no difference
3479 2011-02-13 17:32:28 <RichardG> i think multithread is more suitable for multicpu systems...
3480 2011-02-13 17:32:44 <lfm> RichardG: you can set the number of threads to see how it works
3481 2011-02-13 17:32:49 <hozer> I guess I should start working on implementing bitcoin on reversible computing hardware ;)
3482 2011-02-13 17:33:31 <lfm> hozer: not sure how much real computing is possible in reversable computing
3483 2011-02-13 17:34:07 <llama> why is bitcoin.org down?
3484 2011-02-13 17:34:46 <lfm> hozer: either that or you are just hiding all the cost in the problem setup where you do all the erasure befor the computation starts
3485 2011-02-13 17:35:11 <lfm> llama: no one knows
3486 2011-02-13 17:35:33 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
3487 2011-02-13 17:35:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107885 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 978 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 3 hours, 52 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33954.20828359
3488 2011-02-13 17:43:34 <RichardG> ;;bc,calc 55334000
3489 2011-02-13 17:43:34 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 55334000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 33 minutes and 37 seconds
3490 2011-02-13 17:44:06 <RichardG> just a rough estimate (dont know how to calc khash -> ghash properly) of the pool's current performance
3491 2011-02-13 17:44:45 <lfm> ;;bc,poolstats
3492 2011-02-13 17:44:46 <gribble> {"active_workers": 678, "ghashes_ps": "53.887", "getwork_ps": 254}
3493 2011-02-13 17:45:00 <lfm> ;;bc,calc 53887000
3494 2011-02-13 17:45:02 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 53887000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 34 minutes and 32 seconds
3495 2011-02-13 17:45:32 <lfm> basicly the same
3496 2011-02-13 17:46:09 <RichardG> i should stop forgetting to start the miner...
3497 2011-02-13 17:46:11 Bth8 has joined
3498 2011-02-13 17:46:26 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
3499 2011-02-13 17:48:10 <RichardG> I'm trying to persuade friends into mining coins... too bad none of them can GPU mine
3500 2011-02-13 17:50:35 Bth8 has quit (Client Quit)
3501 2011-02-13 17:50:57 <MartianW> RichardG, then you don't have much of an argument.
3502 2011-02-13 17:50:57 Bth8 has joined
3503 2011-02-13 17:51:31 djizle has joined
3504 2011-02-13 17:54:06 <luke-jr> lol
3505 2011-02-13 17:54:18 <luke-jr> RichardG: CPU mining costs more in electric bill than you earn from bitcoins
3506 2011-02-13 17:54:55 <luke-jr> OneFixt: btw, how is BitPenny working out? do you make your profit properly, or is it at risk of being shutdown sometime?
3507 2011-02-13 17:55:28 viq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3508 2011-02-13 17:55:53 <RichardG> ,,bc,calc 343
3509 2011-02-13 17:55:53 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
3510 2011-02-13 17:55:59 <RichardG> ;;bc,calc 343
3511 2011-02-13 17:56:00 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 343 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 10 years, 16 weeks, 5 days, 19 hours, 38 minutes, and 7 seconds
3512 2011-02-13 17:56:05 <RichardG> ;;bc,calc 343000
3513 2011-02-13 17:56:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 343000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes, and 39 seconds
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3517 2011-02-13 18:03:35 OneFixt_remote has joined
3518 2011-02-13 18:04:02 <RichardG> one of my friends said
3519 2011-02-13 18:04:04 <RichardG> "yeah, bitcoin looks very serious... not... one among many, and even without a working website.. wheee :)"
3520 2011-02-13 18:04:56 <OneFixt_remote> luke-jr: It's currently paying out more than it generates, but there is no risk of being shut down at this point
3521 2011-02-13 18:04:56 <RichardG> "i've seen this kind of virtual currency before... for me it's practically useless anyway since I can't do anything with it anyway, except waste power, GPU cycles and shorten the lifetime of my hardware"
3522 2011-02-13 18:05:15 <OneFixt_remote> luke-jr: I should say 'very low risk' as there is always risk
3523 2011-02-13 18:05:57 <luke-jr> RichardG: really? I'm not aware of anything like bitcoin before bitcoin
3524 2011-02-13 18:07:14 <luke-jr> and you can't pay rent in it usually, but honestly, I wouldn't /want/ to
3525 2011-02-13 18:07:34 <luke-jr> far more sane to use a currency that's losing value rather than one gaining value, for long-term contracts
3526 2011-02-13 18:08:32 yay68922 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3527 2011-02-13 18:09:13 <edcba> usd is not real  money i can't pay my rent   with  it
3528 2011-02-13 18:09:37 <newsham> bitcoin are very serious business
3529 2011-02-13 18:09:41 <RichardG> lol at the faucet's captcha
3530 2011-02-13 18:09:48 <luke-jr> edcba: you can if you live in the US
3531 2011-02-13 18:10:05 <newsham> richard: you can exchange gpu cycles for dollars.
3532 2011-02-13 18:10:10 <newsham> also you can buy sex toys :)
3533 2011-02-13 18:10:13 djizle has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3534 2011-02-13 18:10:34 <luke-jr> you can buy VPS hosting
3535 2011-02-13 18:11:31 <RichardG> I checked some of the VPS hosters listed in the wiki yesterday
3536 2011-02-13 18:11:39 <luke-jr> check me? :P
3537 2011-02-13 18:11:40 <RichardG> that one with uk broadband access
3538 2011-02-13 18:11:45 <luke-jr> LOL
3539 2011-02-13 18:11:54 <RichardG> doesnt accept bitcoins apparently
3540 2011-02-13 18:11:56 <luke-jr> I have a real dedicated server in a datacenter
3541 2011-02-13 18:12:08 <luke-jr> http://lightfoot.dashjr.org/?page=vps&currency=BTC
3542 2011-02-13 18:13:11 <newsham> too bad you cant rent out virtual gpu time for less btc than it earns ;-)
3543 2011-02-13 18:14:43 <RichardG> luke-jr: yes I checked you
3544 2011-02-13 18:15:00 <Necr0s_> yea, amazon only offers Tesla GPUs.
3545 2011-02-13 18:15:34 pavelo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3546 2011-02-13 18:17:08 pavelo has joined
3547 2011-02-13 18:17:20 <Sirius> apache2: page allocation failure
3548 2011-02-13 18:17:22 <Sirius> what's that
3549 2011-02-13 18:17:58 * luke-jr wonders how you get JJGames to take bitcoins
3550 2011-02-13 18:18:12 <Necr0s_> out of memory perhaps?
3551 2011-02-13 18:21:56 Cusipzzz has joined
3552 2011-02-13 18:22:56 akem has joined
3553 2011-02-13 18:23:15 <Sirius> last time OOM was different
3554 2011-02-13 18:23:20 <Sirius> I'll ask the support
3555 2011-02-13 18:23:51 <RichardG> more quotes from that friend
3556 2011-02-13 18:24:08 <RichardG> he said he already saw scams related to coin mining a few years back
3557 2011-02-13 18:24:20 <RichardG> and would rather do it for something "valuable" like seti@
3558 2011-02-13 18:24:25 <Validus> everybody always sees a scam from something
3559 2011-02-13 18:24:30 <Validus> take it with a grain of salt
3560 2011-02-13 18:24:47 <RichardG> also what's the bitcoin randomizer's site again
3561 2011-02-13 18:26:14 <Validus> so what do the computed hashs go towards
3562 2011-02-13 18:26:21 <Validus> i heard it was like folding@home
3563 2011-02-13 18:27:04 <newsham> a few years back?
3564 2011-02-13 18:27:45 <RBecker> Validus, you get bitcoins
3565 2011-02-13 18:27:48 <RBecker> which can be traded
3566 2011-02-13 18:27:52 <RBecker> either for money or for something else
3567 2011-02-13 18:28:00 <Validus> .the hashes has to come from something. thats what im asking
3568 2011-02-13 18:28:14 pavelo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3569 2011-02-13 18:28:20 <Validus> if there was a more behind the scenese benefit of computing the hashese
3570 2011-02-13 18:28:24 <Validus> hashes*
3571 2011-02-13 18:28:37 <newsham> it would be nice if bitcoin mining was also productive in another way
3572 2011-02-13 18:29:15 <newsham> but i'd rather it be correct than tangentially useful.
3573 2011-02-13 18:29:36 <Validus> that kinda made no sense
3574 2011-02-13 18:29:37 <Validus> heh
3575 2011-02-13 18:30:07 bitanarchy has joined
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3577 2011-02-13 18:30:08 bitanarchy has joined
3578 2011-02-13 18:30:11 <Validus> folding @homst computes hashes. whats the difference but getting rewarded. besdies i know there would be various t hings. but similiar concept
3579 2011-02-13 18:30:23 <Validus> so its a valid point i think if it was going to the greater good of something
3580 2011-02-13 18:30:33 <Validus> or why the hashes are generated
3581 2011-02-13 18:31:10 <luke-jr> RichardG: SETI is a complete waste of cycles
3582 2011-02-13 18:31:10 <Validus> i mean it could just to be to make bit coins but itd seem more logical with the way they costs go that the hashes benefit something
3583 2011-02-13 18:31:26 <luke-jr> Validus: the hashes are worthless
3584 2011-02-13 18:31:33 <RichardG> but I still find bitcoins fun, no matter how you mine for them
3585 2011-02-13 18:31:40 <RichardG> as in pooled or alone, CPU or GPU...
3586 2011-02-13 18:31:43 <Validus> i was just curious. its nost gonna affect me
3587 2011-02-13 18:31:48 <RichardG> made me remember of the maemo port
3588 2011-02-13 18:31:52 <RichardG> did anyone get bitcoind on iOS yet
3589 2011-02-13 18:31:55 <lfm> Validus: no, its not a valid point. the hashes support only bitcoin
3590 2011-02-13 18:31:57 <luke-jr> Validus: the hashes serve no useful purpose other than to bruteforce a puzzle
3591 2011-02-13 18:32:02 <RichardG> (apple's, not cisco's, dont get it wrong)
3592 2011-02-13 18:32:34 <luke-jr> Validus: basically, they're trying to find a hash of BlockData+extraNonce that has a lot of 0s at the start of the hash
3593 2011-02-13 18:32:37 <Validus> it would be a valid point though if u think about it. as most things that compute hashes usually have some kind of benefit underlying them. as in this case just bitcoins
3594 2011-02-13 18:32:40 <Validus> so dont take it the wrong way
3595 2011-02-13 18:32:56 <luke-jr> Validus: it's a proof-of-work.
3596 2011-02-13 18:33:03 pavelo has joined
3597 2011-02-13 18:33:10 <Validus> im not arguing or saying its pointless
3598 2011-02-13 18:33:12 <Validus> just simple question
3599 2011-02-13 18:33:13 <Validus> :P
3600 2011-02-13 18:33:15 <luke-jr> Validus: take for example block 170694: 0000000000027fcdb0550f52958d03801d0c2a3bbcb7be3d1bd459aa2a869b08
3601 2011-02-13 18:33:22 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
3602 2011-02-13 18:33:44 <lfm> Validus: the benifit IS bitcoin. a decentralized currency. You need the hashes as they are to make bitcoin work.
3603 2011-02-13 18:33:45 <luke-jr> the goal was to find a hash for it that started with 11 zeros
3604 2011-02-13 18:34:00 <Validus> i realize that
3605 2011-02-13 18:34:08 <Validus> n/m i see what you rsaying but you keep repeating it lol
3606 2011-02-13 18:34:09 <luke-jr> lfm: the hashing isn't necessary, really.
3607 2011-02-13 18:34:25 <lfm> in fact it has been argued that if the hases had some side effec benifit it would not work then
3608 2011-02-13 18:34:41 <Validus> everybody is always out to argue something. its irc
3609 2011-02-13 18:34:45 <Validus> and internet tough guys. and trolls
3610 2011-02-13 18:35:00 <Validus> i was just curious and you answered. thank you
3611 2011-02-13 18:35:10 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
3612 2011-02-13 18:35:11 <lfm> luke-jr: its not neccessary if you want to accept some centralized authority to control it
3613 2011-02-13 18:35:21 <RichardG> did anyone get bitcoind on iOS yet
3614 2011-02-13 18:35:22 <RichardG> (apple's, not cisco's, dont get it wrong)
3615 2011-02-13 18:35:25 <RichardG> also what's the bitcoin randomizer's site again
3616 2011-02-13 18:36:19 <luke-jr> RichardG: both iOS are garbage ☺
3617 2011-02-13 18:37:19 <Validus> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4oB28ksiIo
3618 2011-02-13 18:37:22 <Validus> ^^ that is so funny
3619 2011-02-13 18:37:38 <Validus> prob should have posted that in discussion
3620 2011-02-13 18:38:50 niftyzero1_ has joined
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3631 2011-02-13 18:58:25 bk128 has joined
3632 2011-02-13 19:00:00 <afed> ;;bc,stats
3633 2011-02-13 19:00:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107896 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 967 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 2 hours, 13 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33942.40139091
3634 2011-02-13 19:00:22 <afed> ;;bc,help
3635 2011-02-13 19:00:23 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
3636 2011-02-13 19:00:30 <afed> ;;bc,estimate
3637 2011-02-13 19:00:30 <gribble> 33942.40139091
3638 2011-02-13 19:00:40 <afed> ;;bc,calc
3639 2011-02-13 19:00:41 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
3640 2011-02-13 19:01:04 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3641 2011-02-13 19:01:20 <Mango-chan> [10:29:37] <luke-jr> RichardG: both iOS are garbage ☺
3642 2011-02-13 19:01:21 Cusipzzz has joined
3643 2011-02-13 19:01:22 <Mango-chan> no
3644 2011-02-13 19:01:24 <Mango-chan> >>>>>>>>android
3645 2011-02-13 19:01:42 <luke-jr> Mango-chan: English?
3646 2011-02-13 19:02:09 <Mango-chan> español?
3647 2011-02-13 19:02:41 <RichardG> sorry for 3rd time but what's the bitcoin randomizer's site again
3648 2011-02-13 19:02:42 heretic_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3649 2011-02-13 19:05:50 <afed> ;;bc,calc/win 13
3650 2011-02-13 19:05:51 <gribble> Error: "bc,calc/win" is not a valid command.
3651 2011-02-13 19:06:29 <MartianW> RichardG, I'll give you my referral.
3652 2011-02-13 19:06:47 <MartianW> Wait, I forget, does it even have those?
3653 2011-02-13 19:08:35 <MartianW> Ah, it does.
3654 2011-02-13 19:08:36 <MartianW> How handy.
3655 2011-02-13 19:08:39 <MartianW> RichardG, http://fxnet.co.cc/?ref=156
3656 2011-02-13 19:10:01 <RichardG> ah ok
3657 2011-02-13 19:10:44 ducki2p has joined
3658 2011-02-13 19:10:56 <MartianW> Just having an account is not very profitable, unless you give someone your referral link to sign up with though.
3659 2011-02-13 19:12:46 flags8192 has joined
3660 2011-02-13 19:13:37 <flags8192> hi all !
3661 2011-02-13 19:14:30 <citiz3n> does the randomizer actually work?
3662 2011-02-13 19:14:57 <MartianW> citiz3n, sort of.
3663 2011-02-13 19:15:07 <MartianW> You get very little money, but I have succesfully withdrawn some from it.
3664 2011-02-13 19:15:15 <flags8192> in Russian says anyone?
3665 2011-02-13 19:15:25 <luke-jr> citiz3n: it's a ponzi scheme :p
3666 2011-02-13 19:15:41 <luke-jr> the people who join first, get the most money
3667 2011-02-13 19:15:47 <luke-jr> the people who join last get none
3668 2011-02-13 19:16:09 <luke-jr> since it started in Aug 2010 and bitcoin is still small, we're probably close to "none" now
3669 2011-02-13 19:16:11 MartianW has left ("Bye all.")
3670 2011-02-13 19:16:12 MartianW has joined
3671 2011-02-13 19:16:27 <MartianW> What luke-jr said.
3672 2011-02-13 19:16:37 <afed> what MartianW said
3673 2011-02-13 19:16:49 <luke-jr> on the other hand, since bitcoin is still growing, so long as the randomizer stays online, there will be new victims for years to come
3674 2011-02-13 19:17:03 <MartianW> luke-jr, victims is a bit harsh.
3675 2011-02-13 19:17:27 <flags8192> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2444.0 Help compile under linux
3676 2011-02-13 19:17:28 <luke-jr> MartianW: it's the truth
3677 2011-02-13 19:17:45 <MartianW> luke-jr, it's not lying about what it is, so there is no victimization.
3678 2011-02-13 19:18:03 <MartianW> At least, no more than a casino.
3679 2011-02-13 19:18:07 phantomcircuit_ has joined
3680 2011-02-13 19:18:38 <luke-jr> casinos aren't pyramid schemes
3681 2011-02-13 19:18:44 <luke-jr> you win or lose based on chance
3682 2011-02-13 19:18:55 <luke-jr> ponzi/pyramids, you win or lose based on when you join
3683 2011-02-13 19:19:13 <Validus> how is nothing that cost you a dime a victim?
3684 2011-02-13 19:19:20 <Validus> do you even know what ponzi is?
3685 2011-02-13 19:19:50 <Validus> the truth is thats quite ignorant to think that
3686 2011-02-13 19:19:54 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3687 2011-02-13 19:20:02 <luke-jr> Validus: what?
3688 2011-02-13 19:20:07 brcosta has joined
3689 2011-02-13 19:20:10 <Validus> you said it. what is it
3690 2011-02-13 19:20:14 <Validus> i know what ponzi is
3691 2011-02-13 19:20:15 <luke-jr> Validus: you said dime.
3692 2011-02-13 19:20:20 <MartianW> luke-jr, you will either win or lose depending on when you join. By joining you're gambling that you are early and not late.
3693 2011-02-13 19:20:23 <Validus> ive been researching money sites for 3 months
3694 2011-02-13 19:20:32 <luke-jr> MartianW: it's an objective measure.
3695 2011-02-13 19:20:32 <Validus> im on bitcoin i paid $0
3696 2011-02-13 19:20:43 <luke-jr> Validus: bitcoin is money
3697 2011-02-13 19:20:48 <Validus> if you invest. thats a risk
3698 2011-02-13 19:20:50 Cusipzzz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3699 2011-02-13 19:20:52 <luke-jr> 1 BTC is currently worth $1.07 or so
3700 2011-02-13 19:20:54 <Validus> so is stocks ponzi and pyrmaid to?
3701 2011-02-13 19:20:59 <luke-jr> no
3702 2011-02-13 19:21:00 <Validus> is forex?
3703 2011-02-13 19:21:03 <Validus> then how is this different
3704 2011-02-13 19:21:05 <Validus> quit trolling
3705 2011-02-13 19:21:08 Cusipzzz has joined
3706 2011-02-13 19:21:15 genjix has joined
3707 2011-02-13 19:21:21 <Validus> explain how this is ponzi
3708 2011-02-13 19:21:22 <Validus> i wanna hear it
3709 2011-02-13 19:21:23 <luke-jr> because the people at the end CANNOT get money
3710 2011-02-13 19:21:34 <MartianW> Actually, isn't it a Ponzi scheme when investors are paid with other investors money?
3711 2011-02-13 19:21:36 <Validus> ponzi is taking money from new members and paying old members
3712 2011-02-13 19:21:39 wrenny has left ()
3713 2011-02-13 19:21:42 <Validus> thetn getting more to sign up
3714 2011-02-13 19:21:45 <Validus> repeat process
3715 2011-02-13 19:21:46 <luke-jr> Validus: that's exactly what this does
3716 2011-02-13 19:21:46 <MartianW> If you're not saying it is an investment, it can't be a ponzi scheme?
3717 2011-02-13 19:21:50 <Validus> which requires $$$$$$
3718 2011-02-13 19:21:52 <Validus> no its not
3719 2011-02-13 19:21:56 <Validus> your being a twat
3720 2011-02-13 19:22:02 <luke-jr> …
3721 2011-02-13 19:22:04 <luke-jr> yes it is
3722 2011-02-13 19:22:07 <Validus> i will stick up for this program just for comemnts like you
3723 2011-02-13 19:22:09 <Validus> then dont fucking do it
3724 2011-02-13 19:22:19 <luke-jr> you pay 1 BTC to join, that 1 BTC goes to old members
3725 2011-02-13 19:22:23 <Validus> its not. your ignorant. lookup your terms before you say its something
3726 2011-02-13 19:22:31 <Validus> non your btc goes to what you produced
3727 2011-02-13 19:22:38 <Validus> if you dont produce. thats your problem
3728 2011-02-13 19:22:48 <luke-jr> get a clue, kthx
3729 2011-02-13 19:22:51 <genjix> what's wrong with ponzi schemes? :)
3730 2011-02-13 19:22:54 <Validus> funny how i alreayd earned btc
3731 2011-02-13 19:23:02 <Validus> and i didnt pay anything. how am i paying other ppl?
3732 2011-02-13 19:23:03 <luke-jr> genjix: the people at the end are cheated
3733 2011-02-13 19:23:12 <Validus> explain
3734 2011-02-13 19:23:16 <genjix> tough for them :P
3735 2011-02-13 19:23:18 <luke-jr> Validus: you're extremely ignorant.
3736 2011-02-13 19:23:23 <Validus> no im extremely smart
3737 2011-02-13 19:23:37 <Validus> and i dont like lil inet trolls that think their internet tough guys with some kidn of outragous claims
3738 2011-02-13 19:23:45 <luke-jr> genjix: I joined, simply to get a cut from the victims who I /don't/ mislead into it. :p
3739 2011-02-13 19:23:54 <MartianW> luke-jr, the risks are explained to them and they consent.
3740 2011-02-13 19:24:03 <luke-jr> MartianW: really? I see no risks disclosed.
3741 2011-02-13 19:24:05 <Validus> its an INVESTMENT
3742 2011-02-13 19:24:17 <Validus> if you putu $$ 's into it. then thats your end not anyone else.s bitcoin is free to join
3743 2011-02-13 19:24:24 <Validus> thats called investing.
3744 2011-02-13 19:24:34 <Validus> if you put $$ into a stock and lose. thats not ponzi. thats risk
3745 2011-02-13 19:24:39 <luke-jr> Validus: perhaps you are confused.
3746 2011-02-13 19:24:43 <luke-jr> I'm not saying bitcoin is a ponzi
3747 2011-02-13 19:24:44 <Validus> perhaps you are
3748 2011-02-13 19:24:47 <Validus> your on ignore
3749 2011-02-13 19:24:48 <luke-jr> I'm saying the bitcoin randomizer is.
3750 2011-02-13 19:24:48 <Validus> stfu
3751 2011-02-13 19:24:51 <luke-jr> LOL
3752 2011-02-13 19:24:52 <luke-jr> fail
3753 2011-02-13 19:24:53 <MartianW> luke-jr, on the front page it says payment comes from new members joining.
3754 2011-02-13 19:24:56 <andrew12> wow this channel is active
3755 2011-02-13 19:25:04 <Validus> call this shit ponzi wtf
3756 2011-02-13 19:25:06 <luke-jr> MartianW: that's not disclosure of the risk, to idiots
3757 2011-02-13 19:25:28 <Validus> ponzi taking the $$ of new members and paying old members with thbe proceeds
3758 2011-02-13 19:25:36 <Validus> like the ucashbox pay 9 bucks from alert pay into a forced matrix
3759 2011-02-13 19:25:38 <Validus> sign ppl up get paid
3760 2011-02-13 19:25:40 <Necr0s_> wat
3761 2011-02-13 19:25:44 <Validus> thats a start of a ponzi
3762 2011-02-13 19:25:44 <luke-jr> MartianW: anyhow, I used your referral. enjoy.
3763 2011-02-13 19:26:02 <MartianW> luke-jr, thanks for the quarter.
3764 2011-02-13 19:26:05 <Validus> not saying that site is either but you need to look up your terms
3765 2011-02-13 19:26:11 <MartianW> I shall buy bubblegum. ;-)
3766 2011-02-13 19:26:14 <luke-jr> lol
3767 2011-02-13 19:26:15 <RichardG> wait a second
3768 2011-02-13 19:26:21 <RichardG> so cryptopp_asm32
3769 2011-02-13 19:26:23 <RichardG> on cpuminer
3770 2011-02-13 19:26:24 <RichardG> is broken?
3771 2011-02-13 19:26:28 <luke-jr> RichardG: works for me
3772 2011-02-13 19:26:31 phantomcircuit_ has joined
3773 2011-02-13 19:26:37 <luke-jr> RichardG: but again, CPU mining is not profitable
3774 2011-02-13 19:26:42 <Necr0s_> lol bitcoin randomizer
3775 2011-02-13 19:26:44 <RichardG> I know all that
3776 2011-02-13 19:26:49 <RichardG> luke-jr: I got false proof of work on my VPS...
3777 2011-02-13 19:26:54 <Validus> your making yourself look very foolish and i dont care if i look foolish from bad language. i HATE mis information from ppl
3778 2011-02-13 19:26:59 <luke-jr> RichardG: ?
3779 2011-02-13 19:27:03 <Validus> and ppl like you just spread that shit around to make shit fail
3780 2011-02-13 19:27:07 <Necr0s_> Yes, I'd say that thing has elements of both a ponzi scheme and a pyramid scheme.
3781 2011-02-13 19:27:19 <Validus> how is something you dont have ot pay to join a ponzi
3782 2011-02-13 19:27:21 <Validus> u make no sense
3783 2011-02-13 19:27:23 <RichardG> luke-jr: well because I got that on my VPS with cryptopp_asm32
3784 2011-02-13 19:27:24 <RichardG> PROOF OF WORK RESULT: false (booooo)
3785 2011-02-13 19:27:32 <RichardG> so it's probably broken on it
3786 2011-02-13 19:27:33 <Validus> user error
3787 2011-02-13 19:27:38 <RichardG> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1976.msg33203#msg33203
3788 2011-02-13 19:27:50 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3789 2011-02-13 19:27:57 <luke-jr> Validus: you DO need to pay to join the Randomizer, idiot
3790 2011-02-13 19:27:59 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3791 2011-02-13 19:28:04 <Validus> imthe idiot?
3792 2011-02-13 19:28:05 <Validus> lol
3793 2011-02-13 19:28:09 <Necr0s_> hm?  indeed you do have to pay to join the randomizer thing.
3794 2011-02-13 19:28:12 <luke-jr> RichardG: that's a VPS I host?
3795 2011-02-13 19:28:18 <RichardG> no
3796 2011-02-13 19:28:20 <RichardG> another vps
3797 2011-02-13 19:28:28 <Validus> well it reqauires no payment to join. if you join somethinge lse on it thats not my fault. but thats called an investment
3798 2011-02-13 19:28:38 <RichardG> i'll change it to c.
3799 2011-02-13 19:28:43 <Necr0s_> "send 1btc membership fee"...
3800 2011-02-13 19:28:46 <Validus> is hits4paid email on their link rotator ponzi cuz they offer the service if you want? no
3801 2011-02-13 19:28:50 <Necr0s_> on the front page.
3802 2011-02-13 19:28:56 Cusipzzz has joined
3803 2011-02-13 19:28:58 <RichardG> when finding the bitcoin mining setup on the vps
3804 2011-02-13 19:29:03 <Validus> ive hearned 15 bucks through them without paying a dime
3805 2011-02-13 19:29:04 <RichardG> i asked myself, why didnt i use asm32
3806 2011-02-13 19:29:08 <RichardG> now i remember, it was broken
3807 2011-02-13 19:29:16 <luke-jr> where is slush? why is his pool broken?
3808 2011-02-13 19:29:18 <Validus> as well as made 80 bucks this month on ptc sites that required no $$. but their all ponzi
3809 2011-02-13 19:29:31 <RichardG> luke-jr: it's not the pool, it's cryptopp_asm32
3810 2011-02-13 19:29:34 <RichardG> which breaks in some systems
3811 2011-02-13 19:29:36 <RichardG> like my vps
3812 2011-02-13 19:29:41 <luke-jr> the pool is broken right now, too
3813 2011-02-13 19:30:04 <RichardG> and i think it's equally broken on my new PC
3814 2011-02-13 19:30:07 <Validus> 13/02/2011 13:10, 8b5c8ef2, accepted
3815 2011-02-13 19:30:09 <RichardG> doesn't generate proof of work
3816 2011-02-13 19:30:19 <Validus> RichardG: check your login and pass
3817 2011-02-13 19:30:22 <luke-jr> * The requested URL returned error: 400
3818 2011-02-13 19:30:25 <Validus> the config file in app data
3819 2011-02-13 19:30:30 <RichardG> luke-jr: set donations?
3820 2011-02-13 19:30:46 <Validus> and run the program with -help to make sure your settings are correct
3821 2011-02-13 19:30:50 <Necr0s_> That's the cool thing about bitcoin.  There's absolutely no regulation or authority to keep ppl from setting up any kind of ponzi, lottery, casino, etc.
3822 2011-02-13 19:30:56 <luke-jr> duh
3823 2011-02-13 19:31:11 <luke-jr> too bad OneFixt's pool is down, his was more profitable
3824 2011-02-13 19:31:18 <Validus> well a ponzi site makes yo u pay $$ to join. and maintain then the money goes to old members waiting payout
3825 2011-02-13 19:31:22 <Validus> i dont see that here at all
3826 2011-02-13 19:31:24 bk128_ has joined
3827 2011-02-13 19:31:38 <Necr0s_> That's exactly what it is.
3828 2011-02-13 19:31:51 <Necr0s_> If you're talking about the same randomizer I foung googling.
3829 2011-02-13 19:31:52 <Validus> how so. if i didnt pay a dime. i have bitcoins. but thats ponzi?
3830 2011-02-13 19:32:03 <luke-jr> Validus: bitcoins are money
3831 2011-02-13 19:32:04 <MartianW> Validus, there is a fee to sign up?
3832 2011-02-13 19:32:10 <Validus> if you invest money into a ploy to make your stats better. then thats your oown fault
3833 2011-02-13 19:32:11 <Validus> no fee
3834 2011-02-13 19:32:14 <Necr0s_> "send 1btc membership fee"...
3835 2011-02-13 19:32:20 <Validus> i d/led the software straight from the site
3836 2011-02-13 19:32:23 <Necr0s_> http://fxnet.co.cc/
3837 2011-02-13 19:32:24 <Validus> setup gpu mining. and went about
3838 2011-02-13 19:32:27 <Necr0s_> That thing, right?
3839 2011-02-13 19:32:40 <Validus> ive only reviewed the main forums
3840 2011-02-13 19:32:41 <RichardG> changed my new PC's algo to c (second fastest, behind asm32, on a pentium dual e5700)
3841 2011-02-13 19:32:43 <Validus> not what other ppl have setup
3842 2011-02-13 19:32:45 <RichardG> hope it works
3843 2011-02-13 19:32:46 <luke-jr> Validus: this is the ponzi we're talking about: http://fxnet.co.cc/?ref=348
3844 2011-02-13 19:32:59 <Validus> see the point is you said the whole bitcoin is a ponzi
3845 2011-02-13 19:33:10 <Validus> and until i see proof its a ponzi. i still say y our full of shit
3846 2011-02-13 19:33:12 bk128 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3847 2011-02-13 19:33:16 <luke-jr> ;;echo Validus: NOBODY SAID BITCOIN IS A PONZI. JUST BITCOIN RANDOMIZER. http://fxnet.co.cc/?ref=348
3848 2011-02-13 19:33:16 <gribble> Validus: NOBODY SAID BITCOIN IS A PONZI. JUST BITCOIN RANDOMIZER. http://fxnet.co.cc/?ref=348
3849 2011-02-13 19:33:27 <dishwara> please cast ur vote at http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3439
3850 2011-02-13 19:33:35 bk128_ is now known as bk128
3851 2011-02-13 19:33:36 <Necr0s_> no, the bitcoin is not in itself a ponzi scheme.
3852 2011-02-13 19:33:45 <Necr0s_> bitcoin system and protocol.
3853 2011-02-13 19:33:56 <Validus> and getting affilates dont constitute a ponzi either
3854 2011-02-13 19:33:59 chmod755 has joined
3855 2011-02-13 19:34:03 <Validus> unless they cant pay their new members and they only pay old ones
3856 2011-02-13 19:34:08 <Validus> with the money you give them
3857 2011-02-13 19:34:37 <Necr0s_> You know, I think it's funny that media says "Bernie Madoof ran the biggest ponzi scheme in history".
3858 2011-02-13 19:34:47 <brcosta> looks ponzi to me - just don't be the last member, and you're good :)
3859 2011-02-13 19:34:48 <Necr0s_> Whereas there is a far far larger one ongoing today.
3860 2011-02-13 19:34:49 <luke-jr> someone throw a shoe at Validus since he's being willfully ignorant.
3861 2011-02-13 19:34:58 <Necr0s_> Known as Social Security.
3862 2011-02-13 19:35:00 <Validus> ya thatll do it
3863 2011-02-13 19:35:06 <Validus> oh it sucks when ppl call you out dont it
3864 2011-02-13 19:35:18 <Validus> i have no shame. i hate misinformation and ill admit if im wrong
3865 2011-02-13 19:35:27 <Validus> and i am a 110% bastard. no doubt about that. i speak my mind
3866 2011-02-13 19:36:29 <davex___> well bitcoin could be kind of like a ponzi if it breaks somehow.  but not a ponzi by design
3867 2011-02-13 19:36:51 <Validus> so since i paid no $$ to start. t heir gonna deduct my bitcoins and pay other ppl with them?
3868 2011-02-13 19:37:14 <Validus> last i checked your responsible for earing your own things
3869 2011-02-13 19:37:15 <luke-jr> /ignore Validus
3870 2011-02-13 19:37:18 <ArtForz> davex___: errwha?
3871 2011-02-13 19:37:22 <Validus> earning*
3872 2011-02-13 19:37:44 <Validus> and i bet if any founding person here of bitcoin would agree completely
3873 2011-02-13 19:37:49 <MartianW> luke-jr, to ignore you'll need to use Validus!*@*
3874 2011-02-13 19:37:54 <Validus> regardless of how much of an ass i make outa myself cussing your ass out
3875 2011-02-13 19:38:04 <davex___> idk, it's a stretch.
3876 2011-02-13 19:38:15 <luke-jr> MartianW: what clinet requires that?
3877 2011-02-13 19:38:23 <Validus> you want ponzies i can give you a list
3878 2011-02-13 19:38:24 <Necr0s_> Geez, if you wanna argue, at least make a good argument.
3879 2011-02-13 19:38:25 <Validus> 100 sites easy
3880 2011-02-13 19:38:32 <MartianW> luke-jr, all of them?
3881 2011-02-13 19:38:33 <ArtForz> agree completely to what exactly?
3882 2011-02-13 19:38:43 <Validus> that bitcoin is not a ponzi
3883 2011-02-13 19:38:50 <Validus> not some weird pyramid scheme
3884 2011-02-13 19:38:53 <Validus> or scam
3885 2011-02-13 19:38:55 <Validus> as thats what their saying
3886 2011-02-13 19:39:01 <luke-jr> MartianW: nope
3887 2011-02-13 19:39:05 <luke-jr> MartianW: /ignore Validus works fine herew
3888 2011-02-13 19:39:11 <ArtForz> err, who's saying that?
3889 2011-02-13 19:39:15 <davex___> think you misinterpreted him
3890 2011-02-13 19:39:19 <Validus> he just said this shit is a ponzi
3891 2011-02-13 19:39:24 <Validus> and pyrmaid scheme then argued about it
3892 2011-02-13 19:39:28 <Necr0s_> :sigh:
3893 2011-02-13 19:39:34 <Necr0s_> urmom is a ponzi.
3894 2011-02-13 19:39:35 <luke-jr> ArtForz: I said BitCoin Randomizer is a ponzi, and he keeps arguing that BitCoin isn't a ponzi. The idiot can't read.
3895 2011-02-13 19:39:36 <Necr0s_> Last one out loses.
3896 2011-02-13 19:39:38 <Validus> he's a 15 yr old internet tough guy in his moms basement
3897 2011-02-13 19:39:48 <yay6892> n00b question: how long does a transaction usually take?
3898 2011-02-13 19:39:53 <Validus> i thougth i was on ignore?
3899 2011-02-13 19:39:57 <luke-jr> yay6892: "take" until what?
3900 2011-02-13 19:39:59 <lfm> "bitcoin randomizer" is not "bitcoin"
3901 2011-02-13 19:40:05 <MartianW> yay6892, to be first put in a block, 10 minutes on average.
3902 2011-02-13 19:40:15 <Validus> i dont even t hink u know what a ponzi is
3903 2011-02-13 19:40:22 <ArtForz> and "bitcoin randomizer" IS A PONZI
3904 2011-02-13 19:40:26 <Validus> its just a word you heard
3905 2011-02-13 19:40:34 <Necr0s_> no u
3906 2011-02-13 19:40:36 <brcosta> hey guys, sorry to interrupt but anyone can explain me why do I need many bitcoin addresses?
3907 2011-02-13 19:40:38 <Validus> so bitcoin randomizer only takes your money and pays older members with it
3908 2011-02-13 19:40:40 <luke-jr> ArtForz: he can't read. he's been told over and over.
3909 2011-02-13 19:40:43 <MartianW> brcosta, you don't.
3910 2011-02-13 19:40:47 <MartianW> It's just more private as it's harder to trace.
3911 2011-02-13 19:40:53 <ArtForz> when you introduce your site as "first bitcoin ponzi scheme" on the forums, good chance its a ponzi scheme
3912 2011-02-13 19:41:00 <luke-jr> brcosta: anonymous
3913 2011-02-13 19:41:03 <andrew12> ArtForz: exactly
3914 2011-02-13 19:41:04 <lfm> brcosta: you dont really but it adds to privacy
3915 2011-02-13 19:41:23 <yay6892> thank you. and how many confirmations should one have to assume that it will not be somehow reversed?
3916 2011-02-13 19:41:30 <yay6892> sry, I know I am using sloppy terminology
3917 2011-02-13 19:41:31 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
3918 2011-02-13 19:41:34 <brcosta> thank you, get it
3919 2011-02-13 19:41:35 <luke-jr> yay6892: 7 is standard I think
3920 2011-02-13 19:41:41 <luke-jr> yay6892: but probably 2 is safe
3921 2011-02-13 19:41:47 <MartianW> yay6892, even 1 is pretty hard to reverse.
3922 2011-02-13 19:41:55 <sgornick> yay6892: FYI: ,,(bc,wiki block explorer)
3923 2011-02-13 19:41:56 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Block_Explorer | 23 Jan 2011 ... Bitcoin Block Explorer (also known as Block Explorer or BBE) is a service scanning bitcoin blocks and allowing visitors to see their content ...
3924 2011-02-13 19:42:01 dukeleto has joined
3925 2011-02-13 19:42:11 <luke-jr> yay6892: if it's a trivial amount, you don't need to wait for any really
3926 2011-02-13 19:42:26 <luke-jr> unless you see a double spend, if you see the tx, it's probably going into a block
3927 2011-02-13 19:42:39 <yay6892> thank you all
3928 2011-02-13 19:43:08 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
3929 2011-02-13 19:43:12 <sgornick> Does the client do anything to show that a double spend attempt was seen?
3930 2011-02-13 19:43:20 <andrew12> how does double spending work anyways?
3931 2011-02-13 19:43:33 <luke-jr> andrew12: just spend the coin twice
3932 2011-02-13 19:43:39 <luke-jr> sgornick: good question :p
3933 2011-02-13 19:43:49 <ArtForz> sgornick: iirc, no
3934 2011-02-13 19:44:02 <lfm> andrew12: we hope it doesnt work actually
3935 2011-02-13 19:44:02 <ArtForz> any client that has seen one version will silently ignore the other
3936 2011-02-13 19:44:05 <andrew12> the bitcoin client doesn't let you do that. you'd need to manually do it
3937 2011-02-13 19:44:10 <sgornick> ok, thanks.
3938 2011-02-13 19:44:13 <andrew12> has anyone ever even tried it?
3939 2011-02-13 19:44:20 <ArtForz> yes, on testnet
3940 2011-02-13 19:44:24 <Necr0s_> run 2 client instances, with 2 copies of the wallet.
3941 2011-02-13 19:44:28 <brcosta> wish I had signed up earlier, with my PC it'd take at least a year to generate a block..
3942 2011-02-13 19:44:33 <luke-jr> ArtForz: that might be considered a bug
3943 2011-02-13 19:44:42 <ArtForz> what?
3944 2011-02-13 19:44:46 <luke-jr> ArtForz: since it makes it very unlikely anyone will see a double-spend of what they're getting
3945 2011-02-13 19:44:49 <Validus> brcosta: join a pool mine
3946 2011-02-13 19:44:49 <andrew12> brcosta: better than 3 years
3947 2011-02-13 19:44:56 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 400
3948 2011-02-13 19:44:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 8 years, 44 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 41 minutes, and 50 seconds
3949 2011-02-13 19:45:05 <andrew12> 8 years?!?!
3950 2011-02-13 19:45:18 <ArtForz> luke-jr: so you prefer that anyone can flood the network with 100s of variations of the same transaction?
3951 2011-02-13 19:45:19 <brcosta> i can generate at 1700khash/s tops
3952 2011-02-13 19:45:21 <molecular> hehe, in 8 years a block is only 12.50 ;)
3953 2011-02-13 19:45:24 <luke-jr> ArtForz: nope
3954 2011-02-13 19:45:25 <Necr0s_> yeah, you can forget about mining on a cpu.
3955 2011-02-13 19:45:28 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 2000
3956 2011-02-13 19:45:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 year, 40 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 22 seconds
3957 2011-02-13 19:45:43 <molecular> you can still join a pool
3958 2011-02-13 19:45:48 <Necr0s_> My i7 920 makes around 4000hkps.
3959 2011-02-13 19:45:50 <andrew12> molecular: and by then the price will have x4'd too
3960 2011-02-13 19:45:53 <molecular> made 1 buck in a week with my lowly cpu
3961 2011-02-13 19:46:06 <brcosta> which pool do you recommend?
3962 2011-02-13 19:46:09 <ArtForz> Necr0s_: thats pretty bad
3963 2011-02-13 19:46:12 <molecular> andrew12, but also due to the difficulty rising, it'll be more than 8 years, maybe even 14
3964 2011-02-13 19:46:13 <brcosta> don't have a gpu atm
3965 2011-02-13 19:46:18 <Necr0s_> But I don't even bother running a miner on it.  I just use gpus.
3966 2011-02-13 19:46:19 <andrew12> brcosta: currently your only choice is slush's pool
3967 2011-02-13 19:46:22 <andrew12> molecular: that too
3968 2011-02-13 19:46:26 <luke-jr> 1,2905.2 TBC per block right now :P
3969 2011-02-13 19:46:31 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
3970 2011-02-13 19:46:37 <molecular> brcosta, mining.bitcoin.cz by slush is the biggest, I think
3971 2011-02-13 19:46:40 <molecular> brcosta, I use it
3972 2011-02-13 19:46:41 <luke-jr> Necr0s_: my i5-2400 makes about 5.1 MH/s
3973 2011-02-13 19:46:43 <ArtForz> a i7-920 should be getting about double that
3974 2011-02-13 19:46:54 <luke-jr> ArtForz: it should?
3975 2011-02-13 19:46:57 <ArtForz> yea
3976 2011-02-13 19:47:03 <Necr0s_> hm
3977 2011-02-13 19:47:05 dukeleto has joined
3978 2011-02-13 19:47:08 <luke-jr> ArtForz: Sandy Bridge is supposed to blow all earlier procs out of the water ;P
3979 2011-02-13 19:47:11 <luke-jr> including the 970
3980 2011-02-13 19:47:14 <Necr0s_> Also my Q6600 makes about 3000.
3981 2011-02-13 19:47:15 <molecular> Necr0s_, yeah, when I figured overclocking my GPU by about 1% makes more than my cpu, I stopped it ;)
3982 2011-02-13 19:47:26 <ArtForz> luke-jr: except it... doesn't
3983 2011-02-13 19:47:29 <andrew12> so when will bitcoin be out of beta? when all of the features are proven to work? (i.e. tx fees, the halving, etc)
3984 2011-02-13 19:47:42 <ArtForz> for some weird reason the SSE units on SB seem awfully slow
3985 2011-02-13 19:47:54 <luke-jr> andrew12: the original client probably never will be before it's replaced, IMO
3986 2011-02-13 19:47:57 <Necr0s_> Really, I feel like bitcoin is still pretty immature.
3987 2011-02-13 19:48:03 <luke-jr> ArtForz: because SSE is obsolete
3988 2011-02-13 19:48:19 <luke-jr> ArtForz: we need a good AVX miner
3989 2011-02-13 19:48:29 <Necr0s_> Things like using IRC for peer discovery should really not be in a production release.
3990 2011-02-13 19:48:51 * luke-jr wonders if BitTorrent's DHT protocol can be hijacked for BitCoin peer discovery
3991 2011-02-13 19:48:56 <ArtForz> well, SSE/SSE2/SSSE3/AVX/SSSSEEEEE42 or whatever mfgs call their SIMD vector units this month
3992 2011-02-13 19:48:58 <Necr0s_> That would be nice.
3993 2011-02-13 19:49:06 <jgarzik> luke-jr: nope. you still need a bootstrap.
3994 2011-02-13 19:49:11 <Necr0s_> Indeed I find myself comparing bitcoin to bittorrent a lot.
3995 2011-02-13 19:49:15 <luke-jr> jgarzik: how does DHT bootstrap?
3996 2011-02-13 19:49:18 <Necr0s_> And seeing a lot of contrast.
3997 2011-02-13 19:49:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: uses a well-known DNS name
3998 2011-02-13 19:49:41 <luke-jr> not a bad idea :p
3999 2011-02-13 19:49:47 <jgarzik> router.bittorrent.com or dht.transmissionbt.com or whatnot
4000 2011-02-13 19:50:00 <jgarzik> and once you have DNS, for bitcoin, you don't need a DHT
4001 2011-02-13 19:50:07 <Necr0s_> Yeah, that's kind of what DNS was made for.
4002 2011-02-13 19:50:18 <brcosta> molecular, which miner do you use?
4003 2011-02-13 19:50:24 <Necr0s_> Finding things.
4004 2011-02-13 19:50:26 <jgarzik> all you need is enough seed nodes to get onto the P2P network, where you are given oodles of addresses.
4005 2011-02-13 19:51:12 <ArtForz> so.. replacing a single point of failure (IRC) with another single point of failure (DNS)
4006 2011-02-13 19:51:16 * luke-jr wonders if anycast is viable.
4007 2011-02-13 19:51:27 <jgarzik> ArtForz: yep
4008 2011-02-13 19:51:33 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4009 2011-02-13 19:51:34 <ArtForz> bootstrap problem is bootstrap problem, news at 11 ;)
4010 2011-02-13 19:51:35 <Necr0s_> Using IRC, you have things like the IRC server going down, channel takeovers, floods, etc, which can bring down the whole system.
4011 2011-02-13 19:51:45 <lfm> and irc is already rather distributed
4012 2011-02-13 19:51:54 <Necr0s_> DNS is made to resist failure like that.
4013 2011-02-13 19:52:02 dukeleto has joined
4014 2011-02-13 19:52:18 <jgarzik> lfm: _our_ bitcoin IRC, or IRC in general?  bitcoin hardcodes the IRC server IP address, IIRC.
4015 2011-02-13 19:52:23 <jgarzik> that IP address is SPOF
4016 2011-02-13 19:52:27 <lfm> necrodearia: dns is vulnerable to us government supeopnas
4017 2011-02-13 19:52:38 <andrew12> lfm: tor tor tor tor tor
4018 2011-02-13 19:52:40 <Necr0s_> DNS based in the US.
4019 2011-02-13 19:52:47 <lfm> tor sucks
4020 2011-02-13 19:53:00 <ArtForz> and I still don't see whatTF AVX is supposed to gain
4021 2011-02-13 19:53:05 <Necr0s_> Use a bunch of DNS names on a bunch of domains on geographically distributed registrars.
4022 2011-02-13 19:53:10 dishwara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4023 2011-02-13 19:53:13 <luke-jr> the problem with IRC, or DNS, or anycast, is that a government can block it easily
4024 2011-02-13 19:53:20 <ArtForz> so you can run 1 256-bit op/clock instead of 2 128-bit ops... yay!
4025 2011-02-13 19:53:24 <Necr0s_> Distribute,
4026 2011-02-13 19:53:31 <Necr0s_> Don't put it all with one government.
4027 2011-02-13 19:53:33 <jgarzik> all the bitcoin client needs is (a) some built-in DNS names, run by loosely connected community members, and (b) the abillity to add more DNS names for lookups.  Then you can replace IRC.  If gov't snags one DNS name, you still have a bunch left all over the world.
4028 2011-02-13 19:54:00 <Necr0s_> bitcoin.de, bitcoin.se...
4029 2011-02-13 19:54:01 <andrew12> decentralized DNS, gogogo!
4030 2011-02-13 19:54:05 <jgarzik> no one says there must be only one "bootstrap.bitcoin.org"  bitcoin client may store "bootstrap.pirate.bay", "bootstrap.de", ...
4031 2011-02-13 19:54:13 <luke-jr> hhahaha
4032 2011-02-13 19:54:15 <luke-jr> jgarzik: use hashes
4033 2011-02-13 19:54:18 <ArtForz> sounds like a horribly complicated way for bootstrapping
4034 2011-02-13 19:54:24 <Necr0s_> Not really.
4035 2011-02-13 19:54:25 RazielZ has quit ()
4036 2011-02-13 19:54:29 <hozer> what are we bootstrapping now?
4037 2011-02-13 19:54:32 <Necr0s_> Just a list of names.
4038 2011-02-13 19:54:38 <luke-jr> first try 61d520ccb74288c96bc1a2b20ea1c0d5a704776dd0164a396efec3ea7040349d.net
4039 2011-02-13 19:54:44 <Necr0s_> Bootstrapping DHT.
4040 2011-02-13 19:54:49 <luke-jr> if that fails, b317f31ecf561b264fc76f203713b3c723c49cad85162867dfc6e5ee75bb87bd.net
4041 2011-02-13 19:54:52 <luke-jr> etc
4042 2011-02-13 19:55:02 <luke-jr> b31… is the SHA256 of 61d…
4043 2011-02-13 19:55:14 <lfm> you dont need to use irc now, you can use command line addnodes or fail thru to the hard coded node numbers
4044 2011-02-13 19:55:22 <luke-jr> probably replace .net with a regional TLD based on the last octet
4045 2011-02-13 19:55:37 <lfm> luke-jr: waste of time and effort
4046 2011-02-13 19:55:45 <jgarzik> ArtForz: far more simple than 445 LOC in irc.cpp:  for each dns name in list { IP addrs = dns lookup; addr list += IP addrs }
4047 2011-02-13 19:55:49 <hozer> ipv6 multicast!
4048 2011-02-13 19:55:52 <ArtForz> ... or just hardcode a bunch of public high-uptime bitcoin nodes by IP or hostname
4049 2011-02-13 19:55:58 <luke-jr> hozer: … not pretty ;)
4050 2011-02-13 19:56:02 <luke-jr> hozer: and can be blocked
4051 2011-02-13 19:56:04 <hozer> why not ;)
4052 2011-02-13 19:56:09 <luke-jr> ArtForz: those IPs can be shutdown
4053 2011-02-13 19:56:11 <Necr0s_> But to be production quality, peer discovery needs to take place automatically, and not have SPOF issues.
4054 2011-02-13 19:56:15 <ArtForz> ... so?
4055 2011-02-13 19:56:20 <lfm> ArtForz: the hardcoded list is already in bitcoin of course
4056 2011-02-13 19:56:28 <ArtForz> exactly
4057 2011-02-13 19:56:31 <hozer> why the focus on trying to avoid blocks?
4058 2011-02-13 19:56:34 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4059 2011-02-13 19:56:36 <luke-jr> so using hashes is shutdown-proof
4060 2011-02-13 19:56:40 <ArtForz> the next few million of these DNS names can be registered by some govt.
4061 2011-02-13 19:56:44 <hozer> just make BTC over http
4062 2011-02-13 19:56:54 <luke-jr> possibly
4063 2011-02-13 19:57:00 <luke-jr> or just on-the-fly
4064 2011-02-13 19:57:01 <ArtForz> so... a new node only has to do a few million DNS lookups to find a good seed node, yay!
4065 2011-02-13 19:57:04 dukeleto has joined
4066 2011-02-13 19:57:05 <andrew12> "web bootstrap"
4067 2011-02-13 19:57:16 <hozer> why the focuse on 'fighting' governments?
4068 2011-02-13 19:57:18 <Necr0s_> twitter bootstrap
4069 2011-02-13 19:57:22 <Necr0s_> :facepalm:
4070 2011-02-13 19:57:24 <ArtForz> well, he brought it up
4071 2011-02-13 19:57:24 <jgarzik> adding DNS names to a seed list would be fantastic
4072 2011-02-13 19:57:28 <andrew12> haha
4073 2011-02-13 19:57:36 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4074 2011-02-13 19:57:38 <andrew12> store the block chain in twitter!
4075 2011-02-13 19:57:55 <hozer> my personal opinion is keep the protocol simple, straightforward, and easily recognizable in tcpdump
4076 2011-02-13 19:58:11 <lfm> put up your hands, who here trusts twitter?
4077 2011-02-13 19:58:17 <luke-jr> hozer: because government attack is inevitable.
4078 2011-02-13 19:58:18 <Necr0s_> DNS is a well established protocol.
4079 2011-02-13 19:58:43 <luke-jr> but I can't think of a gov't-proof method, so predefined DNS names is probably the best we can do
4080 2011-02-13 19:58:46 <hozer> luke-jr: you will NOT resist a government attack via any conceivable techincal measure you can dream up on IRC
4081 2011-02-13 19:58:48 <andrew12> Necr0s_: but WHOIS is not! :(
4082 2011-02-13 19:58:57 <lfm> Necr0s_: and it is well established the us gov can turn off dns nodes
4083 2011-02-13 19:59:05 <hozer> you will resist government attack with nonviolent political action
4084 2011-02-13 19:59:17 <hozer> and via grassroots political lobbying
4085 2011-02-13 19:59:17 <luke-jr> hozer: yeah, that's worked so well in the past…
4086 2011-02-13 19:59:22 <davex___> hozer, disagree
4087 2011-02-13 19:59:23 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4088 2011-02-13 19:59:25 <hozer> egypt?
4089 2011-02-13 19:59:25 <Kiba> Egypt
4090 2011-02-13 19:59:28 <luke-jr> hozer: USA
4091 2011-02-13 19:59:29 <Necr0s_> nodes....what effect does turning off a node have tho?
4092 2011-02-13 19:59:34 <davex___> political action doesn't work
4093 2011-02-13 19:59:45 <luke-jr> hozer: egold? Liberty Dollar?
4094 2011-02-13 20:00:01 <hozer> follow the money. Get legitimate payment transactions in bitcoin, and start paying lobbyists with BTC
4095 2011-02-13 20:00:01 <lfm> Necr0s_: turn of the whole bitcoin list of names if they want
4096 2011-02-13 20:00:08 <Necr0s_> I don't think one government can "turn off" domain names registered in 25 countries.
4097 2011-02-13 20:00:25 <Necr0s_> Not the way the internets are set up now.
4098 2011-02-13 20:00:29 <ArtForz> jgarzik: looks like adding dns support for bootstrap nodes shouldnt be too hard
4099 2011-02-13 20:00:30 <jgarzik> It is completely silly to worry about DNS name takeover.  If the government wants to shutdown bitcoin, they will look at IP addresses, especially of miner nodes (observed by timings).
4100 2011-02-13 20:00:40 <davex___> egypt will end up with another oppressive central government
4101 2011-02-13 20:00:44 <jgarzik> ArtForz: indeed
4102 2011-02-13 20:00:52 * hozer seconds jgarzik
4103 2011-02-13 20:00:54 <luke-jr> DNS round robins in multiple countries PLUS *save 100 node IPs from the last time you were connected*
4104 2011-02-13 20:01:01 <ArtForz> would be useful as quite a few people run public high-uptime nodes on dynamic IP w/ dyndns, myself included
4105 2011-02-13 20:01:05 <Necr0s_> Look at wikileaks, they're still up on .fi, .de, etc domains.
4106 2011-02-13 20:01:07 <ArtForz> luke-jr: you fail.
4107 2011-02-13 20:01:32 <ArtForz> what do you think addr.dat contains?
4108 2011-02-13 20:01:34 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
4109 2011-02-13 20:01:41 <jgarzik> DNS has one limitation WRT bitcoin:  no ability to specify port, without using lesser-supported records such as TXT or SRV
4110 2011-02-13 20:01:41 <luke-jr> ArtForz: nfc, never looked
4111 2011-02-13 20:02:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: SRV isn't lesser-supported anymore
4112 2011-02-13 20:02:04 dukeleto has joined
4113 2011-02-13 20:02:11 <luke-jr> it's required for common services now
4114 2011-02-13 20:02:25 <jgarzik> luke-jr: ISPs I deal with beg to differ
4115 2011-02-13 20:02:27 lyspooner has joined
4116 2011-02-13 20:02:37 <ArtForz> oh, dunno, maybe ip address and last-seen timestamp for all nodes we've ever seen?
4117 2011-02-13 20:02:49 <Necr0s_> Do you think being able to specify a port will be important?
4118 2011-02-13 20:02:56 <ArtForz> not really
4119 2011-02-13 20:02:57 <hozer> anyone registered bitcoin.us ? .. if not, I will probably do so, and if it ever gets 'shut down' there will be a nice lawsuit follow-up
4120 2011-02-13 20:03:14 <ArtForz> bet bootstrap nodes will stay on 8333 for the forseeable future
4121 2011-02-13 20:03:29 chmod755 has left ("Leaving.")
4122 2011-02-13 20:04:02 <jgarzik> yep
4123 2011-02-13 20:04:17 Lachesis has joined
4124 2011-02-13 20:04:27 * jgarzik doesn't see it as a major problem now -- but I really would like bitcoin to start actively using and advertising non-8333 ports on P2P network
4125 2011-02-13 20:04:33 <jgarzik> this hardcoding is silly
4126 2011-02-13 20:04:52 <ArtForz> what hardcoding?
4127 2011-02-13 20:04:56 hozer has left ()
4128 2011-02-13 20:05:10 hozer has joined
4129 2011-02-13 20:05:17 <andrew12> if any of you guys have testnet coins, send them to the faucet. it's running out. mh7iEumGX2WXLWT9aYEovDLjMqudLQwJS2
4130 2011-02-13 20:05:25 <ArtForz> p2p net supports nonstandard ports just fine
4131 2011-02-13 20:05:28 <luke-jr> jgarzik: are there ISPs actually blocking SRV lookups?
4132 2011-02-13 20:05:32 <andrew12> i just sent 350.
4133 2011-02-13 20:05:47 <Necr0s_> A configurable port would be nice.
4134 2011-02-13 20:05:50 <lfm> mostly only reason you need other than 8333 is if you are behind nat and very few people have incoming set up thru their nat anyway imho
4135 2011-02-13 20:05:51 <Necr0s_> Like bittorrent.
4136 2011-02-13 20:05:53 <ArtForz> only problem is mainnet client hugely prefers connecting to 8333 over non-8333 peers
4137 2011-02-13 20:06:10 <Necr0s_> <-- has 8333 routed through NAT properly
4138 2011-02-13 20:06:24 phantomcircuit_ has joined
4139 2011-02-13 20:06:25 <lfm> see very few
4140 2011-02-13 20:06:30 <luke-jr> you shouldn't *have* to setup port forwarding
4141 2011-02-13 20:06:30 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4142 2011-02-13 20:06:38 <luke-jr> NAT is broken by design, too.
4143 2011-02-13 20:06:54 <Lachesis> does bitcoin support ipv6?
4144 2011-02-13 20:06:58 <luke-jr> Lachesis: no
4145 2011-02-13 20:07:03 <ArtForz> no... or not yet
4146 2011-02-13 20:07:05 <Necr0s_> :facepalm:
4147 2011-02-13 20:07:05 <luke-jr> or rather, bitcoin does
4148 2011-02-13 20:07:05 <lfm> pnp auto port forward is massive security hole
4149 2011-02-13 20:07:09 <luke-jr> but not the original client
4150 2011-02-13 20:07:13 <luke-jr> lfm: no, it isn't.
4151 2011-02-13 20:07:26 <luke-jr> lfm: NAT isn't supposed to be a security measure at all.
4152 2011-02-13 20:07:27 <ArtForz> p2p protocol already has placeholders for v6 addrs
4153 2011-02-13 20:07:45 <lfm> luke-jr: <- is massive security hole
4154 2011-02-13 20:07:48 <Lachesis> ArtForz, yeah, I remember seeing that
4155 2011-02-13 20:08:00 <Necr0s_> I like a lot of the idea(s) and design of the bitcoin system itself, but when it comes to the protocol and client implementation, I think there's a lot of room for improvement yet.
4156 2011-02-13 20:08:01 <luke-jr> lfm: if you want a firewall, setup a firewall.\
4157 2011-02-13 20:08:09 <ArtForz> so "only" part missing is the client actually supporting it :/
4158 2011-02-13 20:08:15 bk128 has joined
4159 2011-02-13 20:08:16 <luke-jr> Necr0s_: MT`AwAy is developing the next gen BitCoin client.
4160 2011-02-13 20:08:33 <ArtForz> yeah, upnp support shoulöd help push # of externally reachable nodes by quite a bit :P
4161 2011-02-13 20:08:35 <bk128> ;;bc,calc 313000
4162 2011-02-13 20:08:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 313000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 5 minutes, and 41 seconds
4163 2011-02-13 20:08:37 <Necr0s_> good, good
4164 2011-02-13 20:08:50 <luke-jr> I'd be helping if he let me, but oh well
4165 2011-02-13 20:09:09 <Lachesis> What will the next-gen client do that this one doesn't?
4166 2011-02-13 20:09:15 <Lachesis> is it a full rewrite, or just an update?
4167 2011-02-13 20:09:19 <luke-jr> Lachesis: full rewrite
4168 2011-02-13 20:09:27 <luke-jr> using Qt
4169 2011-02-13 20:09:30 <Lachesis> why?
4170 2011-02-13 20:09:35 <luke-jr> because wx sucks
4171 2011-02-13 20:09:39 <andrew12> wait
4172 2011-02-13 20:09:44 <andrew12> isnt qbitcoin the one in qt?
4173 2011-02-13 20:09:48 <ArtForz> Qt? for something that should be a daemon?
4174 2011-02-13 20:09:49 <andrew12> s/in/with/
4175 2011-02-13 20:09:49 <luke-jr> andrew12: exactly.
4176 2011-02-13 20:09:53 <luke-jr> ArtForz: the wallet is C
4177 2011-02-13 20:09:57 <andrew12> qbitcoin isn't a replacement
4178 2011-02-13 20:09:59 <andrew12> er
4179 2011-02-13 20:10:05 <luke-jr> ArtForz: but Qt is not inherently GUI
4180 2011-02-13 20:10:06 <andrew12> qbitcoin is separate from the main bitcoin
4181 2011-02-13 20:10:16 <luke-jr> andrew12: neither are "main". they are competing clients.
4182 2011-02-13 20:10:23 <Mr_Coin> maybe wx sucks, but qt sucks even more
4183 2011-02-13 20:10:25 <Lachesis> i thought bitcoind didn't require wx anymore?
4184 2011-02-13 20:10:28 <luke-jr> I am presently in the QBitCoin camp for client preference :P
4185 2011-02-13 20:10:30 <ArtForz> it doesnt
4186 2011-02-13 20:10:37 <andrew12> qt doesn't make things look like shit
4187 2011-02-13 20:10:41 <andrew12> wx does
4188 2011-02-13 20:10:41 <luke-jr> Lachesis: bitcoind isn't a client, it's an application integration thing
4189 2011-02-13 20:10:49 <Lachesis> ideally, we'd have a bitcoind that was very light and then a bitcoin client that connects to that
4190 2011-02-13 20:10:49 <andrew12> luke-jr: aplicaiton integeration thing
4191 2011-02-13 20:10:50 <andrew12> lol.
4192 2011-02-13 20:10:53 <jrabbit> what is it that bitcoin uses as a gui toolkit again?
4193 2011-02-13 20:10:57 <luke-jr> Mr_Coin: no, Qt is basically the ideal for GUIs
4194 2011-02-13 20:10:58 <Lachesis> WxWindows
4195 2011-02-13 20:11:00 <jrabbit> ah wx.
4196 2011-02-13 20:11:00 <andrew12> jrabbit: wxwidgets
4197 2011-02-13 20:11:06 <Lachesis> luke-jr, this is a holy war :)
4198 2011-02-13 20:11:06 <jrabbit> yeah I fucking hate wxwidgets
4199 2011-02-13 20:11:07 <jrabbit> :)
4200 2011-02-13 20:11:08 <Lachesis> let's not have it here
4201 2011-02-13 20:11:15 <luke-jr> Lachesis: ☺
4202 2011-02-13 20:11:20 <jrabbit> Qt is native on most platforms
4203 2011-02-13 20:11:25 <luke-jr> Qt is native on *all* platforms…
4204 2011-02-13 20:11:34 <luke-jr> what platform *isn't* Qt native on?
4205 2011-02-13 20:11:40 <luke-jr> besides Windows Mobile 7
4206 2011-02-13 20:11:42 <bk128> ;;bc,stats
4207 2011-02-13 20:11:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107902 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 961 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 1 hour, 27 minutes, and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33866.12332439
4208 2011-02-13 20:11:45 <jrabbit> haiku I think
4209 2011-02-13 20:11:46 <jrabbit> :D
4210 2011-02-13 20:12:03 <bk128> ;;bc,calc 313000 34000
4211 2011-02-13 20:12:03 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
4212 2011-02-13 20:12:38 <Lachesis> bk128, i wrote a python program to do that :)
4213 2011-02-13 20:12:50 <luke-jr> jgarzik: http://qt-haiku.ru/ begs to differ
4214 2011-02-13 20:13:34 joe_1 has joined
4215 2011-02-13 20:13:47 <Lachesis> 5.4 days / block
4216 2011-02-13 20:13:52 <bk128> Lachesis: do you have a link?
4217 2011-02-13 20:13:58 <Lachesis> haven't uploaded it anywhere yet
4218 2011-02-13 20:14:05 <Lachesis> the formula is simple, though
4219 2011-02-13 20:14:11 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calcd 313000 34000
4220 2011-02-13 20:14:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 313000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 34000, is 5 days, 9 hours, 35 minutes, and 45 seconds
4221 2011-02-13 20:14:28 <Lachesis> ArtForz, yep, that's it :)
4222 2011-02-13 20:14:37 <brcosta> anyone got this error 400 on minerd?
4223 2011-02-13 20:14:38 <Lachesis> my script does expected earnings too
4224 2011-02-13 20:14:39 Mr_Coin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4225 2011-02-13 20:14:41 <luke-jr> jrabbit: ^*
4226 2011-02-13 20:14:48 <Lachesis> brcosta, wrong username/password
4227 2011-02-13 20:14:58 <andrew12> ratta ratta ratta ratta
4228 2011-02-13 20:15:02 <luke-jr> brcosta: slush's pool now requires donations
4229 2011-02-13 20:15:07 <lfm> should have arg for the price of power/KWH
4230 2011-02-13 20:15:08 <luke-jr> brcosta: you get 400 if you have it set to 0
4231 2011-02-13 20:15:13 <Lachesis> luke-jr, oh good call
4232 2011-02-13 20:15:21 <ArtForz> enforced "donations" are not donations
4233 2011-02-13 20:15:23 <Lachesis> lfm, my power's free here so i didn't code that
4234 2011-02-13 20:15:24 <Lachesis> easy though
4235 2011-02-13 20:15:32 <bk128> ArtForz: thanks
4236 2011-02-13 20:15:33 <Lachesis> ArtForz, he calls them donations b/c he hasn't had time to fix the code
4237 2011-02-13 20:15:46 <Lachesis> he claims he'll be removing it once he comes up with a better server or smt
4238 2011-02-13 20:15:46 <luke-jr> Lachesis: and because it's temporary
4239 2011-02-13 20:15:50 <brcosta> just saw it on chrome: {"error": {"message": "Please set system donation to keep your workers running.
4240 2011-02-13 20:15:51 <Lachesis> yeah luke-jr
4241 2011-02-13 20:16:00 niftyzero1_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4242 2011-02-13 20:16:01 <brcosta> thanks guys
4243 2011-02-13 20:16:15 <jrabbit> luke-jr: oh.
4244 2011-02-13 20:16:16 <jrabbit> :|
4245 2011-02-13 20:16:19 <jrabbit> damn.
4246 2011-02-13 20:16:42 <luke-jr> jrabbit: but Nokia did just sign an agreement with Microsoft to not port Qt to WM7
4247 2011-02-13 20:16:46 <lfm> so its just a tactic to releive overload
4248 2011-02-13 20:17:08 <jrabbit> luke-jr: lol liek that matetrs
4249 2011-02-13 20:17:18 <jrabbit> wm7 is a steaming pile ofshit
4250 2011-02-13 20:17:23 <luke-jr> jrabbit: Nokia also agreed to use WM7 on all their new phones…
4251 2011-02-13 20:17:25 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
4252 2011-02-13 20:17:31 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: "old" testnet?
4253 2011-02-13 20:17:37 <luke-jr> jrabbit: makes people wonder why Nokia will keep Qt alive at all
4254 2011-02-13 20:17:40 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: new testnet
4255 2011-02-13 20:17:46 <jrabbit> pft
4256 2011-02-13 20:17:49 <ArtForz> lfm: I never claimed otherwise
4257 2011-02-13 20:17:51 <jrabbit> luke-jr: They are so going to be in court
4258 2011-02-13 20:17:55 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: oh well. I have 140k "old" testnet and nothing to do with them.
4259 2011-02-13 20:17:55 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4260 2011-02-13 20:17:58 <jrabbit> Elop owns MS stock
4261 2011-02-13 20:18:18 Raulo has joined
4262 2011-02-13 20:18:19 <jrabbit> this shit has monopoly abuse written all over it
4263 2011-02-13 20:18:23 <luke-jr> jrabbit: Nokia stock has fallen sharply since
4264 2011-02-13 20:18:32 <jrabbit> well duh
4265 2011-02-13 20:18:33 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: I can set up something so you can help me generate for the testnet, any blocks found will be sent to the faucet
4266 2011-02-13 20:18:33 <edcba> ...
4267 2011-02-13 20:18:34 <jrabbit> its suicide
4268 2011-02-13 20:18:35 <lfm> ArtForz: actually I think it is a smart tactic
4269 2011-02-13 20:18:39 <jrabbit> I'm quite aware of this luke-jr
4270 2011-02-13 20:18:41 <luke-jr> yeah
4271 2011-02-13 20:18:47 <edcba> 0.01% of stock
4272 2011-02-13 20:18:49 <luke-jr> MeeGo and Symbian are doomed at least
4273 2011-02-13 20:18:55 <luke-jr> Qt would probably be too, except for KD
4274 2011-02-13 20:18:57 <luke-jr> KDE*
4275 2011-02-13 20:19:03 <jrabbit> naw Meego is still on
4276 2011-02-13 20:19:04 <ArtForz> what? collecting a fee or tax and calling it a "donation"?
4277 2011-02-13 20:19:05 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: all my mining is done for the real network since the difficulty jumped up so damn high..  what's difficulty on "new" testnet right now?
4278 2011-02-13 20:19:12 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: 1
4279 2011-02-13 20:19:20 <jrabbit> luke-jr: Sybmian and w/e the other oen was are combining into meego anyways
4280 2011-02-13 20:19:21 <luke-jr> edcba: IIRC, Elop is in the top 10 Microsoft stockholders
4281 2011-02-13 20:19:23 <edcba> and from what i did read if MS gain 5% value of that it would only gives him $150K
4282 2011-02-13 20:19:27 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: will it always be 1 forever?
4283 2011-02-13 20:19:33 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: probably not :D
4284 2011-02-13 20:19:35 <edcba> top 10 personal ms holder
4285 2011-02-13 20:19:49 <lfm> ArtForz: ya, doesnt bother me, I dont pool
4286 2011-02-13 20:19:52 <ArtForz> in my book thats simply intellectual dishonesty.
4287 2011-02-13 20:19:56 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: sigh. seems a terrible shame to throw away all those old testnet coins.  anyone want them? i'm upgrading to new testnet.
4288 2011-02-13 20:20:15 <jrabbit> No conspiracy laden black rock capital?
4289 2011-02-13 20:20:15 <luke-jr> jrabbit: were. Nokia dropped MeeGo
4290 2011-02-13 20:20:20 <jrabbit> Man this conspiracy is boring
4291 2011-02-13 20:20:23 <ArtForz> never used pooled mining
4292 2011-02-13 20:20:34 <jrabbit> luke-jr: not what I read.
4293 2011-02-13 20:20:36 <luke-jr> now MeeGo is an Intel-only venture I think
4294 2011-02-13 20:20:42 <midnightmagic_> 140k "old" testnet coins, free, to first taker. i'm upgrading to new testnet.
4295 2011-02-13 20:20:49 <jrabbit> http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2011/02/12/nokia-new-strategic-direction-what-is-the-future-for-qt/
4296 2011-02-13 20:21:02 <jrabbit> Nokia also announced it will ship its first MeeGo-related device in 2011, which will rely on the Qt ecosystem – and then will continue with MeeGo as an open source project for future disruption.
4297 2011-02-13 20:21:19 <brcosta> future disruption?
4298 2011-02-13 20:21:33 <edcba> abandon ? :)
4299 2011-02-13 20:21:40 <luke-jr> [15:14:47] <Stskeeps> luke-jr: no, but R&D budget may be cut severely
4300 2011-02-13 20:21:45 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: if you wanna help me mine, point your miner at http://vps.andrew12.net:4567 :p
4301 2011-02-13 20:21:55 <luke-jr> so not quite abandon, but almost
4302 2011-02-13 20:21:59 <andrew12> (mainnet)
4303 2011-02-13 20:22:13 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: :-) i'll mine here and forward some to you..
4304 2011-02-13 20:22:19 <luke-jr> jrabbit: FYI, I've been somewhat involved with MeeGo from its inception
4305 2011-02-13 20:22:33 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: testnet or mainnet? :o)
4306 2011-02-13 20:22:37 <luke-jr> not so much lately though, cuz I don't like it :p
4307 2011-02-13 20:22:55 <jrabbit> luke-jr: then you should know that Nokia is so big that they had like 3 fucking OSes at once
4308 2011-02-13 20:23:05 <jrabbit> I don't think this really changes anything
4309 2011-02-13 20:23:14 <jrabbit> except that their leadership is dumber then expected.
4310 2011-02-13 20:23:21 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: you want testnet coins right?
4311 2011-02-13 20:24:02 <genjix> Sirius: I cannot upload attachments to the forum because the upload folder is full
4312 2011-02-13 20:24:20 <brcosta> well, mining with minerd at 860khps =/
4313 2011-02-13 20:24:22 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: all the testnet coins I get i've been sending to the faucet. you can just send yours straight there if you're gonna send them to me. the rpc url i posted is a proxy to bitpenny, mining for me
4314 2011-02-13 20:24:33 <brcosta> maybe I can get my first btc by the end of this year =)
4315 2011-02-13 20:24:56 <midnightmagic_> andrew12: is yours the only faucet? what's the url?
4316 2011-02-13 20:25:14 <Lachesis> are any of the pools open source?
4317 2011-02-13 20:25:25 <andrew12> midnightmagic_: http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/TEST/ the new testnet faucet. it's not mine.
4318 2011-02-13 20:25:29 <nanotube> Lachesis: jgarzik has posted source to his pool at some point.
4319 2011-02-13 20:26:02 <nanotube> andrew12: ah so the test faucet has upgraded to the new genesis block already? or not yet?
4320 2011-02-13 20:26:05 <andrew12> i just have a testnet node running at http://testnet:testnet@vps.andrew12.net:18332
4321 2011-02-13 20:26:09 <andrew12> nanotube: it has
4322 2011-02-13 20:26:13 <nanotube> ic :)
4323 2011-02-13 20:28:06 * andrew12 sneezes all over the room
4324 2011-02-13 20:29:47 <lfm> bless you
4325 2011-02-13 20:30:21 <andrew12> whee: http://cl.ly/4aDy
4326 2011-02-13 20:30:37 <andrew12> top one is my desktop, middle is my vps, last is my mac
4327 2011-02-13 20:31:13 <andrew12> totalling about 3Mhash/s
4328 2011-02-13 20:31:23 <andrew12> yay cpu mining
4329 2011-02-13 20:32:17 <davex___> so, are generated bitcoins traded for $ just capital gains with a 0 cost basis?
4330 2011-02-13 20:33:11 <genjix> jgarzik: in the few seconds before the rpc server has started and bitcoin is running, I need to know bitcoin is running but not initialised... So I put the RPC server at the very beginning and add isinitialised (all other rpc methods except help/isinitialized will send an error when isinitialized is false)
4331 2011-02-13 20:33:56 <davex___> or maybe better to just not know...
4332 2011-02-13 20:34:52 <genjix> Lachesis: nanotube: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/poold.py <- that's what you're looking for.
4333 2011-02-13 20:35:00 <Cusipzzz> davex___: i'm guessing you had hardware and electricity expenses, no?
4334 2011-02-13 20:35:05 <lyspooner> is there anything prophetic written in the genesis block of bitcoin?  or is it just a random bunch of bits
4335 2011-02-13 20:35:11 sabalabas has joined
4336 2011-02-13 20:35:28 <davex___> true.  guess electricity's easy enough to count for cost basis.
4337 2011-02-13 20:35:33 <lfm> lyspooner: neither
4338 2011-02-13 20:35:35 <davex___> not sure about hardware
4339 2011-02-13 20:35:44 <genjix> lyspooner: yeah search satoshi on bitcoin wiki
4340 2011-02-13 20:36:21 <Cusipzzz> pro rata on the hardware, internet costs, electricity, etc
4341 2011-02-13 20:37:12 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4342 2011-02-13 20:37:15 flags8192 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4343 2011-02-13 20:38:07 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4344 2011-02-13 20:38:25 <lyspooner> genjix, does coinbase have a fixed length?
4345 2011-02-13 20:39:05 <bitcoiner> if you have many device u need to pool em together or it doesnt change a thing ?
4346 2011-02-13 20:39:07 <genjix> you mean the size of a coin?
4347 2011-02-13 20:39:09 <genjix> int64
4348 2011-02-13 20:39:21 <genjix> 8 decimal places
4349 2011-02-13 20:39:23 <midnightmagic_> Wait, I've got it. Satoshi is actually Tsutomu Shimomura.. right?
4350 2011-02-13 20:39:30 <RichardG> i'm running minerd with algo c for hours on my VPS, it's stuck at 16777216 hashes and no proof of work
4351 2011-02-13 20:39:33 <RichardG> is something wrong?
4352 2011-02-13 20:39:39 <lyspooner> satoshi = Schneier + Okamoto
4353 2011-02-13 20:40:00 <midnightmagic_> Schneier self-aggrandizes too much. I'm pretty sure he'd do it under his own name.
4354 2011-02-13 20:40:04 <sipa> RichardG: how often does it tell you 16777216 hashes?
4355 2011-02-13 20:40:44 <RichardG> sipa: can't count, almost every minute or so
4356 2011-02-13 20:40:57 <sipa> mining solo or for a pool?
4357 2011-02-13 20:41:02 <RichardG> pool
4358 2011-02-13 20:41:06 <lyspooner> Schenier + Okamoto, for being cryptographers, didn't leave much to the decrypt with "Satoshi Nakamoto"
4359 2011-02-13 20:41:32 <sipa> RichardG: slush's pool requires difficulty-1 shares
4360 2011-02-13 20:41:44 <sipa> a difficulty-1 share typically requires 2^32 hashes
4361 2011-02-13 20:42:08 <sipa> since 16777216 is only 2^24 hashes, you'll need (on average) 256 such groups before you find a proof of work
4362 2011-02-13 20:42:26 <RichardG> that means it should find a PoW every 256 hash displays or so?
4363 2011-02-13 20:42:41 <RichardG> (256*number of threads)*
4364 2011-02-13 20:42:51 <sipa> indeed
4365 2011-02-13 20:43:04 <sipa> but still with wild variations
4366 2011-02-13 20:43:08 <sipa> what hash rate does it report?
4367 2011-02-13 20:43:19 <RichardG> 440-560
4368 2011-02-13 20:43:28 <sipa> 2 threads?
4369 2011-02-13 20:43:31 <RichardG> yes
4370 2011-02-13 20:43:42 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 880 1
4371 2011-02-13 20:43:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 880 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 1 hour, 21 minutes, and 20 seconds
4372 2011-02-13 20:43:47 <RichardG> asm32 is much faster, too bad it's broken (always generates invalid pow)
4373 2011-02-13 20:45:02 <RichardG> changed to 1thread, i think it's a bit faster
4374 2011-02-13 20:45:19 <RichardG> got 601 khashes
4375 2011-02-13 20:45:45 <RichardG> should I stick to two threads then
4376 2011-02-13 20:46:40 <sipa> yes
4377 2011-02-13 20:47:00 <sipa> 2*440 > 601
4378 2011-02-13 20:47:01 <RichardG> well I'm unsure whether HashMeter(1): 16777216 hashes, 435.90 khash/sec
4379 2011-02-13 20:47:06 <RichardG> is a global or per-thread value
4380 2011-02-13 20:47:08 Mr_Coin has joined
4381 2011-02-13 20:47:11 <sipa> per-tread
4382 2011-02-13 20:47:14 <RichardG> someone told me it was global
4383 2011-02-13 20:47:16 <sipa> oh
4384 2011-02-13 20:47:48 <RichardG> but for how it looks like
4385 2011-02-13 20:47:51 <RichardG> it seems per-thread
4386 2011-02-13 20:48:23 <RichardG> ;;bc,calcd 1130 1
4387 2011-02-13 20:48:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1130 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 20 seconds
4388 2011-02-13 20:49:01 <RichardG> I'll take a look at the source
4389 2011-02-13 20:49:27 <sipa> quite sure it's per-thread
4390 2011-02-13 20:50:16 <RichardG> { "quiet",
4391 2011-02-13 20:50:16 <RichardG> "(-q) Disable per-thread hashmeter output (default: off)" },
4392 2011-02-13 20:51:06 <RichardG> so I'm quite sure it's per-thread
4393 2011-02-13 20:53:01 MacRohard has joined
4394 2011-02-13 20:53:11 <fahadsadah> What pools are people using?
4395 2011-02-13 20:53:16 <fahadsadah> nathan7: Hi
4396 2011-02-13 20:55:20 <fahadsadah> niekie: I lost +o again
4397 2011-02-13 20:55:32 <niekie> fahadsadah: gimme 25 bitcoins. :P
4398 2011-02-13 20:55:55 <fahadsadah> Go screw yourself.
4399 2011-02-13 20:55:59 <sipa> i think slush's pool is the biggest one
4400 2011-02-13 20:56:09 <niekie> :(
4401 2011-02-13 20:56:10 <sipa> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
4402 2011-02-13 20:56:13 <niekie> :O
4403 2011-02-13 20:56:20 <fahadsadah> sipa: Thanks
4404 2011-02-13 20:56:26 <fahadsadah> niekie: Thanks you!
4405 2011-02-13 20:56:38 <soultcer> Did I really just see nieke selling op for bitcoins?
4406 2011-02-13 20:56:53 <niekie> soultcer: I wasn't serious :)
4407 2011-02-13 20:56:53 <fahadsadah> No, I social-engineered it out of him
4408 2011-02-13 20:56:56 nevezen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4409 2011-02-13 20:58:21 <nanotube> soultcer: i'll sell you op for bitcoin. lol. :)
4410 2011-02-13 20:58:27 <soultcer> No need
4411 2011-02-13 20:58:35 <nanotube> yea i know :)
4412 2011-02-13 20:58:40 <niekie> nanotube: It might be helpful if you sell people things they don't already have :D
4413 2011-02-13 20:58:46 <soultcer> But seriously, if I catch someone really selling op for bitcoins I'll ban him :P
4414 2011-02-13 20:59:01 <niekie> Not if we ban you first :D </joke>
4415 2011-02-13 20:59:07 <soultcer> You can't
4416 2011-02-13 20:59:15 <niekie> I know :)
4417 2011-02-13 20:59:23 <nanotube> aw
4418 2011-02-13 20:59:28 nevezen has joined
4419 2011-02-13 20:59:32 * nanotube was looking forward to an egypt-replay :)
4420 2011-02-13 20:59:51 <nanotube> let's demonstrate in the streets against the op-dictators!
4421 2011-02-13 21:00:08 <soultcer> I've been op here for close to a year now
4422 2011-02-13 21:00:11 <bitcoiner> change is here ?
4423 2011-02-13 21:00:41 <soultcer> I like change. If you have some spare change, you can send it to my bitcoin address
4424 2011-02-13 21:01:05 <bitcoiner> I have a nickel bitcoin maybe later
4425 2011-02-13 21:01:52 <nanotube> soultcer: a whole year? definitely dictator-overthrow material there. :)
4426 2011-02-13 21:02:14 <soultcer> Overthrow Xunie, he was op for 30 seconds longer than me
4427 2011-02-13 21:03:19 <soultcer> -ChanServ- 2     Xunie                  (OP) [modified 47 weeks, 1 day, 12:40:27 ago]
4428 2011-02-13 21:03:31 <soultcer> -ChanServ- 3     soultcer                (OP) [modified 47 weeks, 1 day, 12:39:57 ago]
4429 2011-02-13 21:04:16 <RichardG> sipa: so I think you're right, the hashmeter is per-thread
4430 2011-02-13 21:04:26 <niekie> I usually bribe Xunie for ops.
4431 2011-02-13 21:04:27 * RichardG hits whoever told me it was global
4432 2011-02-13 21:04:41 <niekie> Ain't that right, Xunie? ;)
4433 2011-02-13 21:05:05 <edcba> wtf bitcoins explained by steve gibson ?
4434 2011-02-13 21:05:14 <niekie> Uhuh.
4435 2011-02-13 21:05:17 <bitcoiner> yeah
4436 2011-02-13 21:05:21 <bitcoiner> thats how I heard of it
4437 2011-02-13 21:06:37 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
4438 2011-02-13 21:06:40 <bitcoiner> can you get bitcoins with paypal ?
4439 2011-02-13 21:07:00 <edcba> you can buy them there are exchanges
4440 2011-02-13 21:07:13 <bitcoiner> with paypal ?
4441 2011-02-13 21:07:17 <sipa> yes
4442 2011-02-13 21:07:18 <edcba> but paypal don't support them (yet)
4443 2011-02-13 21:07:21 <edcba> yes with paypal
4444 2011-02-13 21:07:23 <bitcoiner> gotalink?
4445 2011-02-13 21:07:35 <bitcoiner> f paypal go bitcoins
4446 2011-02-13 21:07:40 <edcba> hmm www.mtgox.com i think
4447 2011-02-13 21:07:46 <bitcoiner> thanks
4448 2011-02-13 21:07:51 <sipa> mtgox doesn't do paypal dollars
4449 2011-02-13 21:08:21 <luke-jr> there's an exchange that only does PayPal, but only small amounts
4450 2011-02-13 21:08:29 <luke-jr> otherwise, you can find people to trade with on Market or OTC
4451 2011-02-13 21:08:41 <bitcoiner> I would nee paypal supplier
4452 2011-02-13 21:08:44 <bitcoiner> need
4453 2011-02-13 21:08:50 * edcba just googled bitcoin paypal...
4454 2011-02-13 21:08:57 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: you want to buy bitcoins or sell them?
4455 2011-02-13 21:09:00 <bitcoiner> yeah sorry im lazy
4456 2011-02-13 21:09:00 <edcba> there are a lot of new results
4457 2011-02-13 21:09:27 <nanotube> bitcoiner: you can do paypal on #bitcoin-otc channel, or on coinpal. i think bitcoinmorpheus also does paypal.
4458 2011-02-13 21:09:29 <bitcoiner> I want to buy
4459 2011-02-13 21:09:54 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Currency_exchange
4460 2011-02-13 21:10:01 <bitcoiner> I mean I need a trusty regular automatic supplier
4461 2011-02-13 21:10:11 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: no such thing.
4462 2011-02-13 21:10:20 <nanotube> bitcoiner: you could set something up on otc
4463 2011-02-13 21:10:21 <bitcoiner> yet.... ?
4464 2011-02-13 21:10:23 <luke-jr> anything automatic is open to fraud.
4465 2011-02-13 21:10:36 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: MtGox used to do it.
4466 2011-02-13 21:10:41 <nanotube> luke-jr: not unless we're talking about a trusted personal relationship between a buyer and seller.
4467 2011-02-13 21:10:42 <bitcoiner> mmmmm
4468 2011-02-13 21:10:50 <nanotube> bitcoiner: you can deposit funds into mtgox via bank wire or ach
4469 2011-02-13 21:10:51 <afed> anyone want a perl script that trades on technicals on mtgox
4470 2011-02-13 21:10:51 <sipa> traders don't like paypal because it payments can be revoked
4471 2011-02-13 21:10:52 <brcosta> is there any store accepting btc?
4472 2011-02-13 21:10:52 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: the problem is, PayPal transfers can be undone
4473 2011-02-13 21:10:55 <nanotube> bitcoiner: if your amounts are large enough
4474 2011-02-13 21:10:56 <luke-jr> brcosta: lots
4475 2011-02-13 21:10:58 <afed> 5000 bitcoins
4476 2011-02-13 21:11:03 <andrew12> afed: technicals?
4477 2011-02-13 21:11:18 <bitcoiner> thats why im talking bout this
4478 2011-02-13 21:11:22 <nanotube> afed: how about its profitability? :) have you backtested it?
4479 2011-02-13 21:11:22 <luke-jr> brcosta: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
4480 2011-02-13 21:11:24 <davex___> how do you run aticonfig over ssh without getting 'must be run in X session'
4481 2011-02-13 21:11:26 <bitcoiner> bitcoin cannot be undone right ?
4482 2011-02-13 21:11:30 <brcosta> luke-jr, thx
4483 2011-02-13 21:11:33 <nanotube> bitcoiner: right
4484 2011-02-13 21:11:35 <afed> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1493.20
4485 2011-02-13 21:11:39 <afed> that kind of analysis
4486 2011-02-13 21:11:41 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: exactly. so if you pay me with PayPal, then dispute it, I'm out of my bitcoins
4487 2011-02-13 21:11:41 <sipa> bitcoiner: not without cooperation from the receiver
4488 2011-02-13 21:11:41 <afed> can be automated easily
4489 2011-02-13 21:11:57 <afed> nanotube: no actually i thought i'd find a buyer first, then write it :)
4490 2011-02-13 21:11:58 <sipa> well, actually, just no, but you can always ask to have the money sent back
4491 2011-02-13 21:12:01 <nathan7> fahadsadah: hi
4492 2011-02-13 21:12:12 <bitcoiner> im saying this cuz I just got my first taste at an unauthorized claim  :)
4493 2011-02-13 21:12:18 joe_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4494 2011-02-13 21:12:21 <luke-jr> ?
4495 2011-02-13 21:12:28 <bitcoiner> so I figured out if I could get paid in bitcoins...
4496 2011-02-13 21:12:37 <nanotube> bitcoiner: ah someone stuck you with a paypal chargeback?
4497 2011-02-13 21:12:45 <bitcoiner> tell my customer to pay me in bitcoins...
4498 2011-02-13 21:12:48 <nanotube> afed: haha well... that'd be buying a dark horse.
4499 2011-02-13 21:12:48 <andrew12> where oh where is noagendamarket.
4500 2011-02-13 21:13:00 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: so then, you want to sell bitcoins, not buy them…
4501 2011-02-13 21:13:01 <nanotube> afed: anyone can write a trading bot. not anyone can write a /profitable/ trading bot. ;)
4502 2011-02-13 21:13:20 <edcba> luke-jr: maybe he wants to know his customers can buy bitcoins...
4503 2011-02-13 21:13:20 <bitcoiner> well dont know if it is a charge the guy claim his account was hacked
4504 2011-02-13 21:13:30 <bitcoiner> he flagged the account seconds after the transaction
4505 2011-02-13 21:13:44 <bitcoiner> mmm luke
4506 2011-02-13 21:13:45 <lyspooner> does the user Hal come to irc?
4507 2011-02-13 21:13:56 <bitcoiner> I wwant to get paid in bitcoin
4508 2011-02-13 21:13:58 <edcba> !seen hal
4509 2011-02-13 21:14:01 <nanotube> bitcoiner: ah... possible. stolen paypal accounts do happen with regularity.
4510 2011-02-13 21:14:04 <edcba> no bot :)
4511 2011-02-13 21:14:07 <sipa> ;;seen hal
4512 2011-02-13 21:14:07 <gribble> I have not seen hal.
4513 2011-02-13 21:14:07 <edcba> .seen hal
4514 2011-02-13 21:14:11 <necrodearia> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkCQhtJ5zX8#t=28m23s
4515 2011-02-13 21:14:15 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: paypal->bitcoin->paypal might be considered money laundering, and doesn't eliminate the risk, just changes it a little
4516 2011-02-13 21:14:19 <ArtForz> nanotube: anyone can write a profitable trading bot, the question is... profitable for who?
4517 2011-02-13 21:14:20 <bitcoiner> nano it was not stolen he acting like
4518 2011-02-13 21:14:30 <nanotube> ArtForz: hahaha good point :)
4519 2011-02-13 21:15:07 sva_ has joined
4520 2011-02-13 21:16:26 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: you can buy and sell bitcoins on BitCoin Market, but in the end, it's another trader who sends you the PayPal moneys, so you could be selling those 100 BTC to the same guy who sent you them :P
4521 2011-02-13 21:17:10 <nanotube> bitcoiner: what is the value of avg items you sell? if it's not too great, you could direct your customers to coinpal
4522 2011-02-13 21:17:14 <bitcoiner> how do they protect from unothorized transaction since its virutal ?
4523 2011-02-13 21:17:59 <bitcoiner> nano depends how many items they buy
4524 2011-02-13 21:18:55 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: they don't.
4525 2011-02-13 21:19:03 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: if they get scammed enough, the owner will just shut it down
4526 2011-02-13 21:19:22 <ArtForz> luke-jr: who doesn't what?
4527 2011-02-13 21:19:38 <luke-jr> ArtForz: CoinPal has no way to protect from chargebacks
4528 2011-02-13 21:19:47 <bitcoiner> so its hard to sell virtual goods without any risk of being rip off by paypal policy
4529 2011-02-13 21:19:51 <ArtForz> yep
4530 2011-02-13 21:20:03 <ArtForz> well, its hard to do anything without risk of paypal being dicks
4531 2011-02-13 21:20:29 <bitcoiner> it bitcoins get popular enuff
4532 2011-02-13 21:20:31 <bitcoiner> we can say f paypal ?
4533 2011-02-13 21:20:36 <edcba> yes
4534 2011-02-13 21:20:38 dust_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4535 2011-02-13 21:20:38 GoGi2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4536 2011-02-13 21:20:43 <ArtForz> errr... I said so about half a decade ago
4537 2011-02-13 21:20:47 <Kiba> if bitcoins get popular, you could have bitcoin dealers in coffee shop
4538 2011-02-13 21:21:07 <bitcoiner> right
4539 2011-02-13 21:21:11 <bitcoiner> lets crank this bitch
4540 2011-02-13 21:21:22 <andrew12> lol
4541 2011-02-13 21:21:29 <RichardG> <Kiba> if bitcoins get popular, you could have bitcoin dealers in coffee shop
4542 2011-02-13 21:21:30 <RichardG> lol
4543 2011-02-13 21:21:37 <ArtForz> nowadays I rather pay ripoff fees for international wire transfer than deal with paypal
4544 2011-02-13 21:21:48 <brcosta> just won 4btc on jackpot dice, lol =)
4545 2011-02-13 21:21:58 <andrew12> brcosta: send it to me :D
4546 2011-02-13 21:23:08 Necr0s_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4547 2011-02-13 21:23:25 <brcosta> hey, took a lot of time to get 1btc from the faucet to play on this game and win those 4 =D
4548 2011-02-13 21:23:38 <RichardG> ;;bc,dcalc 2600 1
4549 2011-02-13 21:23:38 <gribble> Error: "bc,dcalc" is not a valid command.
4550 2011-02-13 21:23:42 <RichardG> ;;bc,calcd 2600 1
4551 2011-02-13 21:23:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2600 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 27 minutes and 31 seconds
4552 2011-02-13 21:24:11 <nanotube> brcosta: did you cheat the faucet by getting 20x.05?
4553 2011-02-13 21:24:37 <edcba> it's so easy to cheat faucet...
4554 2011-02-13 21:25:14 <RichardG> the downside of bitcoin's anonimity
4555 2011-02-13 21:25:17 <Kiba> got an idea: a game
4556 2011-02-13 21:25:40 <Kiba> every ten minute, only one guy will get one bitcoin by competing against all others
4557 2011-02-13 21:25:47 <Kiba> and winning
4558 2011-02-13 21:25:52 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4559 2011-02-13 21:25:56 <nanotube> how do you compete Kiba
4560 2011-02-13 21:25:58 <edcba> you could get all money from faucet in minutes
4561 2011-02-13 21:26:09 RichardG has joined
4562 2011-02-13 21:26:09 RichardG has quit (Changing host)
4563 2011-02-13 21:26:09 RichardG has joined
4564 2011-02-13 21:26:16 <Kiba> but only one guy win every ten minute
4565 2011-02-13 21:26:19 <nanotube> edcba: don't you need to keep changing your ip? and keep solving the captchas?
4566 2011-02-13 21:26:45 <edcba> of course you need to change ip
4567 2011-02-13 21:27:21 <luke-jr> can we lart brcosta for cheating faucet
4568 2011-02-13 21:27:29 <nanotube> hehe we should.
4569 2011-02-13 21:27:55 <luke-jr> brcosta: when you cheat faucet, it prevents me from doing so!
4570 2011-02-13 21:28:05 <luke-jr> j/k :p
4571 2011-02-13 21:28:06 <RichardG> cheating the faucet isn't fair
4572 2011-02-13 21:28:13 <RichardG> obviously
4573 2011-02-13 21:28:19 <RichardG> if one wants bitcoins
4574 2011-02-13 21:28:24 <RichardG> then go pooled mine
4575 2011-02-13 21:28:36 <luke-jr> let's make brcosta do the dishes to repay faucet
4576 2011-02-13 21:28:42 <RichardG> *if you want bitcoins, go pooled mine
4577 2011-02-13 21:28:57 <luke-jr> brcosta: you stole 1 BTC from faucet to make 4 BTC. Send at least 3 back -.-
4578 2011-02-13 21:29:34 <RichardG> I'm pooled mining from two desktops, one laptop and one VPS, latter having some problems to get a PoW
4579 2011-02-13 21:29:50 <RichardG> it's worth the cent (or fraction of cent) per day
4580 2011-02-13 21:30:02 <sipa> RichardG: what's your combined hash rate?
4581 2011-02-13 21:30:05 <soultcer> VPS providers won't be happy with bitcoin user
4582 2011-02-13 21:30:08 <soultcer> *users
4583 2011-02-13 21:30:16 <RichardG> vps 500-550
4584 2011-02-13 21:30:23 <RichardG> desktop 1 350-750
4585 2011-02-13 21:30:35 <RichardG> er i mean
4586 2011-02-13 21:30:39 <RichardG> vps 500-550*2
4587 2011-02-13 21:30:42 <RichardG> desktop 1 350-750*1
4588 2011-02-13 21:30:45 <RichardG> desktop 2 1100-1200*2
4589 2011-02-13 21:30:45 <luke-jr> soultcer: I think I forbid mining in my ToS
4590 2011-02-13 21:30:49 <RichardG> laptop 650*4
4591 2011-02-13 21:30:58 <ArtForz> so thats what total?
4592 2011-02-13 21:31:02 <soultcer> luke-jr: You operate a VPS host?
4593 2011-02-13 21:31:06 <luke-jr> soultcer: yes
4594 2011-02-13 21:31:47 <RichardG> soultcer: it's a friend's vps, he told me he stopped paying for it
4595 2011-02-13 21:31:52 <luke-jr> I should probably make it more explicit someday.
4596 2011-02-13 21:32:01 <RichardG> so I'd better pool with it while it lasts
4597 2011-02-13 21:32:02 <pierre`> why does the bitcoin client connect on IRC to a Gandi VPS ?
4598 2011-02-13 21:32:10 <ArtForz> so thats like what? 6.5Mh/s combined?
4599 2011-02-13 21:32:13 <luke-jr> pierre`: to find IPs
4600 2011-02-13 21:32:30 <RichardG> ArtForz: tidbit: I got no GPUs
4601 2011-02-13 21:32:38 <ArtForz> so?
4602 2011-02-13 21:32:40 <pierre`> luke-jr: isn't it dangerous to give ips of every clients ?
4603 2011-02-13 21:32:47 <luke-jr> pierre`: no.
4604 2011-02-13 21:32:54 <RichardG> vps = duh, desktop 1 = s3 prosavageddr igp (and a dead geforce 4), desktop 2 = intel g41 igp, laptop = intel hdv igp
4605 2011-02-13 21:32:55 <luke-jr> IPs are public info
4606 2011-02-13 21:33:01 <ArtForz> a friggin $60 GPU is about 6 times as fast ...
4607 2011-02-13 21:33:03 <RichardG> so my entire network is mining using cpu
4608 2011-02-13 21:33:08 <bitcoiner> can you mine with a web server ?
4609 2011-02-13 21:33:11 pogden has joined
4610 2011-02-13 21:33:22 <pierre`> maybe it's better to say it to the users, no ?
4611 2011-02-13 21:33:24 Lachesis has joined
4612 2011-02-13 21:33:26 <sipa> bitcoiner: why would you?
4613 2011-02-13 21:33:26 <RichardG> ArtForz: no agp gpus with opencl for desktop 1 + desktop 2 is on warranty
4614 2011-02-13 21:33:27 <luke-jr> RichardG: Intel Graphics HD 2000/3000 can do GPU mining
4615 2011-02-13 21:33:35 <afed> ll
4616 2011-02-13 21:33:37 <luke-jr> pierre`: no
4617 2011-02-13 21:33:47 <ArtForz> luke-jr: yes ... slowly
4618 2011-02-13 21:33:48 <afed> you can make changes to hardware that's under warranty
4619 2011-02-13 21:33:58 <sipa> RichardG: i hope you don't need to pay electricity :)
4620 2011-02-13 21:33:59 <afed> it's not a sealed box that you can't touch
4621 2011-02-13 21:34:21 <luke-jr> pierre`: IP is like your nickname, nor your SSN
4622 2011-02-13 21:35:04 <RichardG> luke-jr: but I was told mining with an intel hdg is insignificant
4623 2011-02-13 21:35:05 <luke-jr> afed: so long as you don't damage it
4624 2011-02-13 21:35:11 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 6450
4625 2011-02-13 21:35:11 sva_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4626 2011-02-13 21:35:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 6450 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 28 weeks, 4 days, 8 hours, 47 minutes, and 14 seconds
4627 2011-02-13 21:35:16 <afed> yeah remember to wear your ESD strap
4628 2011-02-13 21:35:18 <luke-jr> RichardG: that is true. but same for CPUs
4629 2011-02-13 21:35:43 <sipa> RichardG: so you make somewhat less than 100 BTC/year with your whole setup
4630 2011-02-13 21:35:43 <luke-jr> Intel IGP is about 610 kH/s
4631 2011-02-13 21:35:53 <genjix> what's the maximum length for a bitcoin address?
4632 2011-02-13 21:35:59 <genjix> not the normal length, but the max
4633 2011-02-13 21:36:07 <luke-jr> genjix: pretty sure they're all the same length
4634 2011-02-13 21:36:13 <RichardG> sipa: that's why i pooled mine
4635 2011-02-13 21:36:13 <genjix> they're not.
4636 2011-02-13 21:36:17 <ArtForz> luke-jr: no they're not, but thanks for playing
4637 2011-02-13 21:36:22 <luke-jr> ArtForz: why not?
4638 2011-02-13 21:36:28 <RichardG> it's worth the single cent per day
4639 2011-02-13 21:36:29 <ArtForz> because. they. are. not.
4640 2011-02-13 21:36:31 <luke-jr> it's just base58 of a 160-bit hash, right?
4641 2011-02-13 21:36:58 <sipa> + version and part of a hash of that hash
4642 2011-02-13 21:37:05 <ArtForz> it's a bit more, but hey, dont let get facts in the way of your claim
4643 2011-02-13 21:37:06 <genjix> ArtForz: do you know it? is it 45?
4644 2011-02-13 21:37:07 <luke-jr> genjix: anyhow, it's possible to have coins that require 2 addresses, or something totally different, to redeem
4645 2011-02-13 21:37:31 <ArtForz> and to "how insignificant", all your boxes combined are < 1% of one 5970
4646 2011-02-13 21:37:36 <genjix> lots of things are possible :)
4647 2011-02-13 21:38:05 <luke-jr> genjix: so if you want a field to accept any possible coin, you need a variable length field that can hold an entire input script :P
4648 2011-02-13 21:38:15 <RichardG> ArtForz: as soon as i'm safe to void the warranty of desktop 2 (it shipped with some RAM issues, i'm IRCing from safe mode with network)
4649 2011-02-13 21:38:24 <RichardG> I'll try to add a 4550 to the mix
4650 2011-02-13 21:38:36 <luke-jr> RichardG: you're going to damage it?
4651 2011-02-13 21:38:46 <RichardG> luke-jr: no, open it to install a GPU
4652 2011-02-13 21:38:52 <rlifchitz> is there any working pool apart from slush's one?
4653 2011-02-13 21:38:53 <luke-jr> RichardG: that doesn't void any warranty
4654 2011-02-13 21:38:55 <ArtForz> I wouldnt even bother with 4xxx
4655 2011-02-13 21:39:21 <ArtForz> 4550 is about $30, 30W, ~7Mh/s
4656 2011-02-13 21:39:23 <RichardG> luke-jr: my manufacturer isn't like hp with its "you can open it safely" seals (I saw one)
4657 2011-02-13 21:39:28 <ArtForz> 5550 is about $60, 40W, ~40Mh/s
4658 2011-02-13 21:39:31 <luke-jr> RichardG: irrelevant. there's laws.
4659 2011-02-13 21:39:44 <luke-jr> RichardG: they cannot void a warranty, legally, unless you actually damage something
4660 2011-02-13 21:40:03 <RichardG> guess I need to research brazilian law a bit more
4661 2011-02-13 21:40:09 <luke-jr> nfc on Brazil ☺
4662 2011-02-13 21:40:31 <luke-jr> but if Brazil companies sell "service contracts", that's probably still the case
4663 2011-02-13 21:40:48 <luke-jr> "service contract" allows them to void it if you modify things ;)
4664 2011-02-13 21:40:59 <ArtForz> yep
4665 2011-02-13 21:41:04 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4666 2011-02-13 21:41:08 <ArtForz> well, or they can just claim you damaged something, have fun taking em to court to prove otherwise...
4667 2011-02-13 21:41:22 <RichardG> but I'd better wait for them to fix the RAM before I get any GPU
4668 2011-02-13 21:41:39 <ArtForz> thats SOP of a major vendor in .de
4669 2011-02-13 21:42:07 <ArtForz> "when in doubt, just claim customer broke it"
4670 2011-02-13 21:42:25 <afed> hipsters must fucking die
4671 2011-02-13 21:42:29 <pierre`> luke-jr: then, if the client uses irc, it isn't really p2p, no ?
4672 2011-02-13 21:42:40 <afed> disregard that , wrong window
4673 2011-02-13 21:42:50 <RichardG> pierre`: irc is for peer-finding
4674 2011-02-13 21:42:51 <sipa> pierre`: bootstrapping never is
4675 2011-02-13 21:43:03 <ArtForz> *initial* peer-finding
4676 2011-02-13 21:43:06 <sipa> but once you have some connections to other nodes, it is fully p2p
4677 2011-02-13 21:43:13 <sipa> notice the "some", not all
4678 2011-02-13 21:43:28 <ArtForz> one is pretty much enough
4679 2011-02-13 21:43:30 <pierre`> ok
4680 2011-02-13 21:43:43 <ArtForz> once it has a peer, it gets more peer addrs via p2p
4681 2011-02-13 21:44:03 <ArtForz> and it retries most recently seen peers on restart
4682 2011-02-13 21:44:12 <brcosta> hey guys
4683 2011-02-13 21:44:23 <brcosta> is it right to say that btc is much more like gold than money?
4684 2011-02-13 21:44:25 <ArtForz> so generally, it only needs to bootstrap via IRC or hardcoded node list once
4685 2011-02-13 21:44:32 <RichardG> unfortunately desktop1 (athlon xp) is unable to mine for a bit more than an hour...
4686 2011-02-13 21:44:38 <RichardG> it shuts down and keeps the power light on
4687 2011-02-13 21:44:42 <RichardG> a friend says it's overheating
4688 2011-02-13 21:44:52 <ArtForz> wild guess... it's overheating
4689 2011-02-13 21:45:15 <ArtForz> A-XPs were known for shit thermal performance
4690 2011-02-13 21:45:25 <pierre`> ArtForz: ok, but is every peer connected to the irc ?
4691 2011-02-13 21:45:29 <ArtForz> no
4692 2011-02-13 21:45:52 <ArtForz> people running -noirc sure aren't
4693 2011-02-13 21:45:58 <sipa> brcosta: yes
4694 2011-02-13 21:46:04 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4695 2011-02-13 21:46:10 <RichardG> ArtForz: combined with southern summer, it's horrible
4696 2011-02-13 21:46:14 <sipa> brcosta: though money is a general term with many defintions
4697 2011-02-13 21:46:17 <ArtForz> yes
4698 2011-02-13 21:46:20 <pierre`> ok
4699 2011-02-13 21:46:21 <ArtForz> money is a bit too general
4700 2011-02-13 21:46:30 <RichardG> some stuff may cause it to go to 76c and reboot
4701 2011-02-13 21:46:36 <RichardG> like octaveengine
4702 2011-02-13 21:47:08 <sipa> but bitcoin is definitely more like gold than like federal reserve notes
4703 2011-02-13 21:47:11 <ArtForz> tighten it to "govt issued fiat money" and I'd agree
4704 2011-02-13 21:49:14 bk128 has joined
4705 2011-02-13 21:49:23 riush has joined
4706 2011-02-13 21:49:34 <RichardG> oh my VPS finally got a PoW
4707 2011-02-13 21:49:35 <afed> as opposed to
4708 2011-02-13 21:49:35 <brcosta> like gold, amount of btc will be fixed some time
4709 2011-02-13 21:49:40 <afed> "cybernerd issued fiat money"
4710 2011-02-13 21:49:41 <RichardG> (not /my/ vps)
4711 2011-02-13 21:49:57 <brcosta> will not be "issued" anymore, just traded
4712 2011-02-13 21:50:23 <bk128> ;;bc;calc 570000
4713 2011-02-13 21:50:23 <gribble> Error: "bc;calc" is not a valid command.
4714 2011-02-13 21:50:40 docl has joined
4715 2011-02-13 21:50:49 <bk128> ;;bc,calc 560000
4716 2011-02-13 21:50:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 560000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 7 hours, 23 minutes, and 12 seconds
4717 2011-02-13 21:51:25 <MartianW> ;;bc,calc 600000
4718 2011-02-13 21:51:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 3 hours, 41 minutes, and 40 seconds
4719 2011-02-13 21:51:42 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4720 2011-02-13 21:51:46 <sipa> afed: depending on your definition of fiat money, that statement is either completely wrong, or completely correct :)
4721 2011-02-13 21:53:59 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4722 2011-02-13 21:54:23 <afed> i could jerk off about the definition of a word all day, it's one of my favorite things to do
4723 2011-02-13 21:54:49 <afed> what bitcoins have in common with other fiat money is that they lack intrinsic value
4724 2011-02-13 21:54:54 <sipa> indeed
4725 2011-02-13 21:55:04 <davex___> intrinsic value?  hmm...
4726 2011-02-13 21:55:06 <ArtForz> what they dont have in common is that the supply is fixed
4727 2011-02-13 21:55:14 <sipa> or that it is legal tender
4728 2011-02-13 21:55:19 <sipa> or government-issued
4729 2011-02-13 21:55:33 bk128 has quit (Quit: Bye)
4730 2011-02-13 21:56:11 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4731 2011-02-13 21:56:34 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4732 2011-02-13 21:57:50 noagendamarket has joined
4733 2011-02-13 22:01:04 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4734 2011-02-13 22:01:32 prax has joined
4735 2011-02-13 22:03:20 bk128 has joined
4736 2011-02-13 22:05:34 <afed> true
4737 2011-02-13 22:07:39 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4738 2011-02-13 22:08:12 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4739 2011-02-13 22:08:39 phantomcircuit has joined
4740 2011-02-13 22:09:23 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4741 2011-02-13 22:09:43 mtgox has joined
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4743 2011-02-13 22:13:51 anon92 has joined
4744 2011-02-13 22:14:26 <genjix> jgarzik: woah you're elite!
4745 2011-02-13 22:14:37 <genjix> i was searching for your code and found you're a kernel hacker :p
4746 2011-02-13 22:14:40 <genjix> nice.
4747 2011-02-13 22:14:53 <andrew12> heh
4748 2011-02-13 22:15:07 MingusDew has joined
4749 2011-02-13 22:15:13 Mr_Coin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4750 2011-02-13 22:15:16 <genjix> i had my suspicions he was an uber-hacker already :p
4751 2011-02-13 22:15:40 Mr_Coin has joined
4752 2011-02-13 22:16:33 <andrew12> this? https://github.com/mirrors/linux-2.6/blob/master/include/linux/ahci_platform.h
4753 2011-02-13 22:19:23 <genjix> also his pages/blogs say he works for red hat
4754 2011-02-13 22:19:31 <genjix> on the kernel
4755 2011-02-13 22:19:44 anon92 has quit (Quit: anon92)
4756 2011-02-13 22:20:39 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4757 2011-02-13 22:21:34 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4758 2011-02-13 22:24:09 <andrew12> I wanna be a kernel hacker! :p
4759 2011-02-13 22:24:59 bitcoiner has joined
4760 2011-02-13 22:25:31 viq has joined
4761 2011-02-13 22:26:31 viq has quit (Client Quit)
4762 2011-02-13 22:28:52 viq has joined
4763 2011-02-13 22:30:09 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4764 2011-02-13 22:33:57 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
4765 2011-02-13 22:34:16 bk128_ has joined
4766 2011-02-13 22:34:17 bk128_ has quit (Changing host)
4767 2011-02-13 22:34:17 bk128_ has joined
4768 2011-02-13 22:34:38 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4769 2011-02-13 22:35:07 bk128 has quit (Quit: Bye)
4770 2011-02-13 22:35:08 bk128_ is now known as bk128
4771 2011-02-13 22:37:02 riush has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4772 2011-02-13 22:37:54 TD_ has joined
4773 2011-02-13 22:38:04 riush has joined
4774 2011-02-13 22:41:06 <bk128> ;;bc,stats
4775 2011-02-13 22:41:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 107922 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 941 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 22 hours, 8 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33896.86089736
4776 2011-02-13 22:42:49 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4777 2011-02-13 22:43:40 <bk128> can anyone recommend a decent cheap (probably amd) motherboard that will be able to handle 2+ 5970's?
4778 2011-02-13 22:47:41 <luke-jr> bk128: see the wiki
4779 2011-02-13 22:48:43 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4780 2011-02-13 22:48:50 <bk128> why is a ssd necessary?
4781 2011-02-13 22:48:58 <genjix> i heard this is a channel for minors
4782 2011-02-13 22:49:05 <genjix> i like minors
4783 2011-02-13 22:51:47 <bk128> or not necessary, but recommended for a mining righ.  hdd read/write speed doesn't affect mining speed, right?
4784 2011-02-13 22:51:53 <bk128> rig*
4785 2011-02-13 22:53:36 <bk128> genjix: miners/minors?
4786 2011-02-13 22:53:42 <bk128> lol
4787 2011-02-13 22:53:51 <genjix> :)
4788 2011-02-13 22:54:18 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
4789 2011-02-13 22:54:33 <andrew12> noagendamarket: oh you're here now. can you let me in #bitcoind? :|
4790 2011-02-13 22:55:35 <genjix> what's on #bitcoind?
4791 2011-02-13 22:55:47 <genjix> can i have an invite too?
4792 2011-02-13 22:56:06 <andrew12> heh
4793 2011-02-13 22:56:23 <genjix> comments on my patch? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3419.0
4794 2011-02-13 22:56:26 <andrew12> noagendamarket: ping
4795 2011-02-13 22:59:17 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4796 2011-02-13 22:59:39 pierre` has left ()
4797 2011-02-13 23:00:00 <RichardG> anyone has a list of parameters for the gui original client?
4798 2011-02-13 23:00:27 <andrew12> RichardG: "a list of parameters for the gui" -- that doesn't make sense
4799 2011-02-13 23:01:17 <presence> wtf is this
4800 2011-02-13 23:01:18 <presence> 13/02/2011 15:49, 00001aae, invalid
4801 2011-02-13 23:02:22 doublec has joined
4802 2011-02-13 23:03:36 amwt has joined
4803 2011-02-13 23:03:48 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4804 2011-02-13 23:04:16 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4805 2011-02-13 23:05:10 <luke-jr> oh wow
4806 2011-02-13 23:05:13 <luke-jr> I got another block today
4807 2011-02-13 23:07:17 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 265000
4808 2011-02-13 23:07:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes, and 38 seconds
4809 2011-02-13 23:09:26 <Scootz> andrew12, whats your combined khash with the other person you are with?
4810 2011-02-13 23:10:03 <Scootz> i'd join it if i can use the cpu instead of the gpu. :)
4811 2011-02-13 23:10:16 <luke-jr> guess it's making up for the initial 2 weeks it found nothing
4812 2011-02-13 23:11:37 <andrew12> Scootz: I have no idea, I only know the hashrate for my miners
4813 2011-02-13 23:11:49 amwt has left ()
4814 2011-02-13 23:12:03 <RichardG> I mean, a list of command-line parameters for the GUI...
4815 2011-02-13 23:12:42 <andrew12> RichardG: "command line for the gui" doesn't make any sense. if you want a list of the command line parameters you can use, just do ./bitcoin help
4816 2011-02-13 23:12:59 <RichardG> ok
4817 2011-02-13 23:13:09 <andrew12> assuming you have the rpc server set up
4818 2011-02-13 23:13:18 <RichardG> was looking for that
4819 2011-02-13 23:14:13 <RichardG> no actually I'm not
4820 2011-02-13 23:14:20 <RichardG> andrew12: parameters like -noirc, -connect...
4821 2011-02-13 23:14:31 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4822 2011-02-13 23:15:03 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
4823 2011-02-13 23:16:43 <Scootz> andrew12, going to try getting it going again
4824 2011-02-13 23:16:50 <Scootz> yay!
4825 2011-02-13 23:17:03 <andrew12> yay
4826 2011-02-13 23:17:06 <Scootz> slow though..
4827 2011-02-13 23:17:32 <Scootz> changed from 2 threads to 1.
4828 2011-02-13 23:17:40 <Scootz> was getting 800khs.
4829 2011-02-13 23:17:57 <Scootz> using the cpuminer-git
4830 2011-02-13 23:18:28 <Scootz> donno why its so slow.  when with the normal bitcloin client it was getting 2200
4831 2011-02-13 23:18:37 Mango-chan has quit ()
4832 2011-02-13 23:19:01 <andrew12> Scootz: try the different --algo's
4833 2011-02-13 23:19:26 <andrew12> I get 600khash/s vs 400khash/s with the cryptopp_asm32 algo
4834 2011-02-13 23:19:37 <andrew12> on my desktop
4835 2011-02-13 23:19:39 <Scootz> its using "c"
4836 2011-02-13 23:19:51 <andrew12> try the different ones. lol
4837 2011-02-13 23:19:54 <Scootz> k
4838 2011-02-13 23:19:58 <bk128> are cpu miners even worth bothering with anymore?
4839 2011-02-13 23:20:09 <andrew12> bk128: if you're using a pool
4840 2011-02-13 23:20:24 <bk128> is there a wiki link to doing that?
4841 2011-02-13 23:20:47 <andrew12> http://mining.bitcoin.cz
4842 2011-02-13 23:21:09 <bk128> thanks
4843 2011-02-13 23:21:16 <Kiba> hmm
4844 2011-02-13 23:21:28 <Kiba> feel so awesome to be part of this bitcoin movement
4845 2011-02-13 23:21:53 <lyspooner> pooled mining doesn't really give much help to cpu mining
4846 2011-02-13 23:21:54 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4847 2011-02-13 23:21:57 <andrew12> woot my desktop just got another share :P
4848 2011-02-13 23:21:58 <lyspooner> it's dead
4849 2011-02-13 23:22:06 <jgarzik> bk128: cpu mining is useless, unless you have free electricity or another special situation
4850 2011-02-13 23:22:37 <Scootz> i don't pay for electricty. :)
4851 2011-02-13 23:22:40 <bk128> ok.  I'm waiting on my 5870 anyways
4852 2011-02-13 23:22:40 <lyspooner> a buyer of bitcoins at 10,000usd/btc, eg
4853 2011-02-13 23:23:43 <luke-jr> hmm
4854 2011-02-13 23:23:50 <luke-jr> so my Radeon really broke even in under 2 weeks…
4855 2011-02-13 23:24:14 Mango-chan has joined
4856 2011-02-13 23:24:17 <davex___> Is there a way to run aticonfig over ssh?
4857 2011-02-13 23:24:20 <Scootz> i could get 3-4 computers going on this.
4858 2011-02-13 23:24:31 <Scootz> luke :(
4859 2011-02-13 23:24:32 <luke-jr> lyspooner: pools let CPU miners get 0.01 BTC/day :P
4860 2011-02-13 23:24:37 <jgarzik> Some people have reported that their GPU mining goes faster, if they are also CPU mining on at least one core.  Without GPU, you'll get a few pennies a day from cpu mining with a decent machine and a pool...  assuming no power bills or other costs ("annoying noise") is a cost
4861 2011-02-13 23:24:39 <luke-jr> Scootz: that's a GOOD thing
4862 2011-02-13 23:25:13 Kiv has joined
4863 2011-02-13 23:25:27 <Scootz> only pennies? doesn't seem worth it then.
4864 2011-02-13 23:25:33 <jgarzik> for the pool owner, the question is whether or not the bandwidth bills are worth the CPU miners
4865 2011-02-13 23:25:36 <jgarzik> Scootz: it's not worth it
4866 2011-02-13 23:25:51 * jgarzik says this as the author of "cpuminer"  :)
4867 2011-02-13 23:25:54 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4868 2011-02-13 23:26:12 <RichardG> jgarzik: question i've been unable to solve with the community
4869 2011-02-13 23:26:20 <RichardG> is cpuminer's khash display per thread
4870 2011-02-13 23:26:36 <RichardG> looking at the source suggests it is
4871 2011-02-13 23:26:49 <jgarzik> RichardG: yes, it is per-thread
4872 2011-02-13 23:26:59 <RichardG> then i'm really getting improvements from multithreading :)
4873 2011-02-13 23:27:07 <Scootz> andrew12, 850-950khs so far. using the cryptopp  any of the others stink.
4874 2011-02-13 23:27:13 <jgarzik> HashMeter($THREAD_ID): $SPEED
4875 2011-02-13 23:27:24 <RichardG> also
4876 2011-02-13 23:27:35 <RichardG> is asm32 really broken
4877 2011-02-13 23:27:35 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
4878 2011-02-13 23:27:51 <RichardG> on this pentium dual e5700, it generates invalid pow
4879 2011-02-13 23:27:59 amwt has joined
4880 2011-02-13 23:28:06 <luke-jr> RichardG: no
4881 2011-02-13 23:28:17 <luke-jr> cryptopp_asm32 works best on my i5-2400
4882 2011-02-13 23:28:31 <luke-jr> and I think on my Core2Quad too
4883 2011-02-13 23:28:35 <Scootz> oh! per thread.
4884 2011-02-13 23:28:58 <Scootz> forgot i used -t 2. lol.  ok so double the 850/950 khs what ever that is.
4885 2011-02-13 23:29:15 <lyspooner> ;;bc,calc 1700
4886 2011-02-13 23:29:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1700 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 years, 4 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 6 minutes, and 18 seconds
4887 2011-02-13 23:29:27 <Scootz> lol
4888 2011-02-13 23:29:38 <Scootz> oi
4889 2011-02-13 23:29:48 <lyspooner> thank god it is per thread
4890 2011-02-13 23:30:05 <lyspooner> because my dad turns 60 in 2 years, 5 weeks
4891 2011-02-13 23:30:13 <luke-jr> lol
4892 2011-02-13 23:30:17 <RichardG> ;;bc,calcd 2200 1
4893 2011-02-13 23:30:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2200 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 32 minutes and 32 seconds
4894 2011-02-13 23:30:17 <lyspooner> and he wants some bitcoin coffee
4895 2011-02-13 23:30:23 <luke-jr> lyspooner: how many threads?
4896 2011-02-13 23:30:25 <bk128> the mining_rig link on the wiki seems to say that you're unsure if the MSI 890FXA-GD70 supports 3x 5970's.  does anyone know for sure if it does or not now?
4897 2011-02-13 23:30:32 <amwt> My first day mucking around with bitcoin. Tried GPU miner on i730/9300 board. FYI, that mGPU doesn't work.
4898 2011-02-13 23:30:32 sethsethseth has joined
4899 2011-02-13 23:30:36 <luke-jr> lyspooner: it's much more productive to invest in a GPU, or even better to work for it
4900 2011-02-13 23:30:37 <Scootz> does that seem right though? 1700  for a intel E2160? (dual 1.8G OC'd to 2.4g)
4901 2011-02-13 23:30:49 * jgarzik wonders if there is a way to get bitcoin.org/smf to show new posts, from all threads and all boards... in one big page?
4902 2011-02-13 23:30:55 <luke-jr> Scootz: OC is stupid
4903 2011-02-13 23:30:56 <lyspooner> luke-jr, already in slush's pool
4904 2011-02-13 23:31:00 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 3400
4905 2011-02-13 23:31:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 3400 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 year, 2 weeks, 1 day, 2 hours, 33 minutes, and 9 seconds
4906 2011-02-13 23:31:09 <luke-jr> lyspooner: even still
4907 2011-02-13 23:31:13 <Scootz> luke-jr, not when I don't have enough money to invest in a better cpu/motherboard.
4908 2011-02-13 23:31:14 <andrew12> Scootz: ignore luke-jr ;)
4909 2011-02-13 23:31:20 <luke-jr> lyspooner: my Radeon 5850 paid for itself in under 2 weeks
4910 2011-02-13 23:31:25 <luke-jr> andrew12: …
4911 2011-02-13 23:31:30 <luke-jr> Scootz: ESPECIALLY when that
4912 2011-02-13 23:31:33 * andrew12 sees a square
4913 2011-02-13 23:31:33 <Scootz> I had a quad last summer! but I had to sell it.
4914 2011-02-13 23:31:37 <nanotube> jgarzik: #bc-news
4915 2011-02-13 23:31:41 kelvie_ has joined
4916 2011-02-13 23:31:41 <nanotube> jgarzik: shows all new posts :)
4917 2011-02-13 23:31:47 <luke-jr> Scootz: even if OC is stable, it significantly shortens the lifespan of the CPU
4918 2011-02-13 23:32:03 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
4919 2011-02-13 23:32:05 * amwt is an enduser completely out of his depth on a dev channel
4920 2011-02-13 23:32:06 <Scootz> luke-jr, what if there is good enough cooling?
4921 2011-02-13 23:32:07 <luke-jr> Scootz: a month ago, I have an Athlon64 3200+ which has a single 2.2 GHz core.
4922 2011-02-13 23:32:08 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, so the estimates are off?
4923 2011-02-13 23:32:08 <jgarzik> nanotube: in their entirety?  or just links / subjects?
4924 2011-02-13 23:32:10 <luke-jr> Scootz: it was plenty fast
4925 2011-02-13 23:32:15 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ?
4926 2011-02-13 23:32:17 <nanotube> jgarzik: links/subjects
4927 2011-02-13 23:32:18 <jgarzik> nanotube: I'm looking for all content
4928 2011-02-13 23:32:24 <nanotube> jgarzik: ah ok. then nvm :)
4929 2011-02-13 23:32:25 <luke-jr> Scootz: you are cooling the outside, not the inside
4930 2011-02-13 23:32:32 <bk128> does anyone have a triple 5970 rig going?  is it possible?
4931 2011-02-13 23:32:40 <nanotube> jgarzik: maybe a bit of greasemonkeying would do it...
4932 2011-02-13 23:32:43 <jgarzik> bk128: water-cooled, yes
4933 2011-02-13 23:32:47 <luke-jr> Scootz: the ONLY reason I upgraded was for more memory. a single 2.2 GHz core *is* fast enough
4934 2011-02-13 23:32:56 <Scootz> core0/1 == 60-65C.
4935 2011-02-13 23:32:56 <afed> that whitepixel rig is four 5970 cards, air cooled
4936 2011-02-13 23:33:05 <jgarzik> nanotube: I've been meaning to check out greasemonkey
4937 2011-02-13 23:33:07 <sethsethseth> where can i see that
4938 2011-02-13 23:33:07 <luke-jr> Scootz: good luck.
4939 2011-02-13 23:33:11 <Scootz> hehe
4940 2011-02-13 23:33:27 <bk128> jgarzik: water is essential?  even in a cool basement with good case airflow?
4941 2011-02-13 23:33:36 <nanotube> jgarzik: heh well maybe now is your chance. all that said... not sure you'd even want to have that much info flooding at you. :)
4942 2011-02-13 23:33:37 <luke-jr> Scootz: you'll pay more than 50 BTC in 1 year on electricity, BTW :p
4943 2011-02-13 23:33:43 <afed> if you are going to use air it is probably best not to have a case
4944 2011-02-13 23:33:53 <nanotube> bk128: water cooling helps... but with pcie risers, you can do it with air.
4945 2011-02-13 23:33:54 <Scootz> luke, i pay nothing for electricity.
4946 2011-02-13 23:33:58 <luke-jr> Scootz: ok
4947 2011-02-13 23:34:14 <Scootz> luke-jr, besides. my computer is on 24/7 usually.
4948 2011-02-13 23:34:22 <luke-jr> once upon a time, I cooled my PC by putting it in an open window when it was snowing ;)
4949 2011-02-13 23:34:25 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4950 2011-02-13 23:34:27 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 600000
4951 2011-02-13 23:34:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 3 hours, 41 minutes, and 40 seconds
4952 2011-02-13 23:34:30 <bk128> nanotube: have most people have good results with the MSI 890FXA-GD70?  or are there other boards you'd recommend?
4953 2011-02-13 23:34:39 <luke-jr> Scootz: it uses more power when it's processing, than when it's idle
4954 2011-02-13 23:34:47 <nanotube> bk128: i don't mine, so i am not in a position to recommend anything.
4955 2011-02-13 23:34:57 <nanotube> bk128: there's a wiki page with mining rig hardware though...
4956 2011-02-13 23:35:00 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki mining rig
4957 2011-02-13 23:35:00 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_rig | 26 Jan 2011 ... A mining rig is a computer system used for mining bitcoins. The rig might be a dedicated miner where it was procured, built and operated ...
4958 2011-02-13 23:35:00 <phantomcircuit> so it could take what like 2 years to pay back an hd5970?
4959 2011-02-13 23:35:01 Lachesis has joined
4960 2011-02-13 23:35:03 <Scootz> luke-jr yup. of course it does.
4961 2011-02-13 23:35:08 <luke-jr> Scootz: for example, one of my computers can run on batteries for a month when idle. but if it's being used regularly, that drops to hours.
4962 2011-02-13 23:35:09 <bk128> nanotube: yeah, MSI 890FXA-GD70  is listed on that page.
4963 2011-02-13 23:35:22 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: 5970 is expensive. nfc. :P
4964 2011-02-13 23:35:40 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: my 5850 was $162 and earned that in under 2 weeks (265 MH/s)
4965 2011-02-13 23:35:46 <Scootz> has anyone made comparison charts of the different cpus and the khash/s?
4966 2011-02-13 23:35:58 <luke-jr> Scootz: there's a wiki page, but it's mostly GPUs
4967 2011-02-13 23:36:04 <afed> POOL'S DOWN, BACK TO SOLO MINING
4968 2011-02-13 23:36:06 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
4969 2011-02-13 23:36:08 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yes but at current rates 265 MH/s would tkae a while to get 162$
4970 2011-02-13 23:36:10 <afed> POOL'S UP, BACK IN THE POOL
4971 2011-02-13 23:36:16 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 265000
4972 2011-02-13 23:36:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 21 hours, 2 minutes, and 38 seconds
4973 2011-02-13 23:36:19 <Scootz> luke-jr ty
4974 2011-02-13 23:36:21 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I *just* finished breaking even
4975 2011-02-13 23:36:25 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I got it 12 days ago.
4976 2011-02-13 23:36:27 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, assuming 1 BCT~=1USD
4977 2011-02-13 23:36:42 Diablo-D3 has joined
4978 2011-02-13 23:36:55 <phantomcircuit> that's well over 2 years
4979 2011-02-13 23:36:59 <Scootz> hehe, my gpu isn't even listed on that. sad. well i'm not surprised.
4980 2011-02-13 23:37:01 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: first day, I got 12 BTC on slush's pool. next 9 days, I got nothing at all. Yesterday I got 2 blocks, and 1 more today.
4981 2011-02-13 23:37:03 <phantomcircuit> unless that calculation is substantially off
4982 2011-02-13 23:37:24 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 604
4983 2011-02-13 23:37:25 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 604 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 5 years, 44 weeks, 6 days, 16 hours, 7 minutes, and 2 seconds
4984 2011-02-13 23:37:26 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 604000
4985 2011-02-13 23:37:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 604000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 3 hours, 21 minutes, and 7 seconds
4986 2011-02-13 23:37:38 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: 5970 would get 50 BTC = $50 every 2 days or so
4987 2011-02-13 23:38:15 <phantomcircuit> oh wait
4988 2011-02-13 23:38:17 <phantomcircuit> fail math is fail
4989 2011-02-13 23:38:41 <luke-jr> so probably within a month if you buy 5970 at $600
4990 2011-02-13 23:38:53 <afed> harder to find
4991 2011-02-13 23:39:05 <afed> a 5870 is more like $200
4992 2011-02-13 23:39:20 <afed> unless you're farming really hard and need absolute density
4993 2011-02-13 23:39:28 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 343000
4994 2011-02-13 23:39:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 343000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes, and 39 seconds
4995 2011-02-13 23:39:56 <afed> i think i'd have the same hardware bill if i had bought two 5970s and one system as i paid for four 5870s and two board/cpu/ram to run them
4996 2011-02-13 23:39:57 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, i was counting each block as 1 BTC
4997 2011-02-13 23:39:59 <luke-jr> shrug, if my 5850 makes me another $1000 fast, maybe I'll build a 5970 rig
4998 2011-02-13 23:39:59 <phantomcircuit> heh
4999 2011-02-13 23:40:54 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
5000 2011-02-13 23:42:08 <amwt> I don't have any fancy GPUs but I have a small render farm of 5 core2duo 2.4-3Ghz boxes. worth joining the party?
5001 2011-02-13 23:43:20 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 4498
5002 2011-02-13 23:43:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4498 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 41 weeks, 0 days, 7 hours, 39 minutes, and 36 seconds
5003 2011-02-13 23:43:24 <phantomcircuit> lol
5004 2011-02-13 23:43:38 <Mango-chan> any linux pros
5005 2011-02-13 23:43:56 <Mango-chan> how do i search recursively in a directory for files or particular formats
5006 2011-02-13 23:43:57 * phantomcircuit turns off cpu mining
5007 2011-02-13 23:44:13 <andrew12> ;;bc,estimate
5008 2011-02-13 23:44:15 <gribble> 33769.19864133
5009 2011-02-13 23:44:25 <phantomcircuit> Mango-chan, by metadata or by content?
5010 2011-02-13 23:44:40 <andrew12> ;;bc,calcd 200 [bc,estimate]
5011 2011-02-13 23:44:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 200 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 33769.19864133, is 22 years, 51 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 6 minutes, and 58 seconds
5012 2011-02-13 23:44:44 <andrew12> err
5013 2011-02-13 23:44:44 <Mango-chan> for example
5014 2011-02-13 23:44:46 <Mango-chan> uh
5015 2011-02-13 23:44:49 <andrew12> ;;bc,calcd 2000 [bc,estimate]
5016 2011-02-13 23:44:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 33769.19864133, is 2 years, 15 weeks, 4 days, 8 hours, 6 minutes, and 41 seconds
5017 2011-02-13 23:44:50 <Mango-chan> phantomcircuit filename
5018 2011-02-13 23:44:55 <Mango-chan> metadata i suppose
5019 2011-02-13 23:44:59 <phantomcircuit> Mango-chan, man find
5020 2011-02-13 23:46:01 lyspooner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
5021 2011-02-13 23:46:06 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
5022 2011-02-13 23:48:18 RichardG has quit (Quit: QUIIIIIIIIIIII T)
5023 2011-02-13 23:48:44 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
5024 2011-02-13 23:51:42 <bk128> is there a calc that shows how long for a 90/98% chance to generate?
5025 2011-02-13 23:52:01 <phantomcircuit> bk128, a distribution curve?
5026 2011-02-13 23:52:06 <presence> there is an online calc
5027 2011-02-13 23:52:13 <phantomcircuit> bk128, my first guess would be a basic bell curve
5028 2011-02-13 23:52:16 <bk128> ok
5029 2011-02-13 23:52:18 <sethsethseth> does that guy find bitcoins on the whitepixel rig ?
5030 2011-02-13 23:52:19 <presence> http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php
5031 2011-02-13 23:52:23 <bk128> thanks
5032 2011-02-13 23:52:29 Necr0s has joined
5033 2011-02-13 23:52:38 <phantomcircuit> presence, nah he wants a distribution curve
5034 2011-02-13 23:52:39 <presence> does avg and 95%
5035 2011-02-13 23:52:57 <presence> why?  It doesn't matter, its luck where you fall on the curve
5036 2011-02-13 23:53:07 <presence> its good to know how long it COULD take
5037 2011-02-13 23:53:13 <phantomcircuit> i know :P
5038 2011-02-13 23:53:22 <presence> that way you dont stress until its after that
5039 2011-02-13 23:54:03 <bk128> that's good enough.  wow 5970's are expensive.  I thought they were closer to $500 but I cant find any cheaper than $700.  the ones on newegg that the wiki suggested are "deactivated"
5040 2011-02-13 23:54:31 <presence> they are through manufacturing
5041 2011-02-13 23:54:35 <presence> so whats left is whats left
5042 2011-02-13 23:54:39 <bk128> what are they making now?
5043 2011-02-13 23:54:39 <presence> get 2 5870s
5044 2011-02-13 23:54:42 <bk128> http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Radeon-5970-Video-Card/dp/B003E1XH4S
5045 2011-02-13 23:54:46 <genjix> http://www.qtcentre.org/threads/33430-QSystemTrayIcon-clicked-event
5046 2011-02-13 23:54:50 <genjix> this is soo weird
5047 2011-02-13 23:54:51 <presence> cheaper, and better, especially if you go to two machines
5048 2011-02-13 23:55:01 <genjix> look at the usernames of the posters
5049 2011-02-13 23:55:23 <Necr0s> I think ppl are buying them up for this.
5050 2011-02-13 23:55:41 <Necr0s> I think they're making 6870s now.
5051 2011-02-13 23:55:52 <presence> 6870 < 5870 for this
5052 2011-02-13 23:55:56 <presence> by almost 33%
5053 2011-02-13 23:55:57 <bk128> I thought 5970's were better value wise and mh/s/watt
5054 2011-02-13 23:56:14 <presence> they are better mh/s/w
5055 2011-02-13 23:56:17 <presence> but not price
5056 2011-02-13 23:56:27 <presence> I got my two 5870s l;ast week for $400 delivered
5057 2011-02-13 23:56:35 <bk128> where?
5058 2011-02-13 23:56:38 <presence> newegg
5059 2011-02-13 23:56:41 <bk128> hm
5060 2011-02-13 23:57:00 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
5061 2011-02-13 23:57:09 <phantomcircuit> genjix, i would bet that's a microsoft employee trying to gain forum rep to then go fuck with people
5062 2011-02-13 23:57:21 <bk128> and the comparison on the wiki says 5870 gets 313mhash/sec and the 6870 gets only 232
5063 2011-02-13 23:57:24 <genjix> weird:p