1 2011-02-15 00:03:35 <da2ce7> lol it is vd day!
   2 2011-02-15 00:07:04 Lachesis has joined
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   4 2011-02-15 00:07:08 Lachesis has joined
   5 2011-02-15 00:08:40 <Lachesis> well hello BCBot!
   6 2011-02-15 00:09:29 <noagendamarket> da2ce7  lol
   7 2011-02-15 00:10:32 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
   8 2011-02-15 00:12:45 Bimmerhead has joined
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  10 2011-02-15 00:14:39 <ntosme2> are trades with bitcoin-central free? I don't see any fees mentioned...
  11 2011-02-15 00:14:55 <jgarzik> ntosme2: yes
  12 2011-02-15 00:15:01 user99672 has quit (Quit: user99672)
  13 2011-02-15 00:15:07 Bimmerhead has joined
  14 2011-02-15 00:15:15 sabalaba has joined
  15 2011-02-15 00:19:04 <edcba> wtf 1 << 1 is better than 2 ?
  16 2011-02-15 00:19:18 <tcatm> ?
  17 2011-02-15 00:19:52 <jgarzik> edcba: with bitmapped constants, yes
  18 2011-02-15 00:20:39 <comboy> I must agree it looks more pro
  19 2011-02-15 00:21:18 frewsxcv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  20 2011-02-15 00:22:27 <newsham> edcba: if you're trying to communicate that its the 1st (counting from 0) bit.
  21 2011-02-15 00:22:37 <edcba> why +1 would be more easier than *2 ?
  22 2011-02-15 00:23:32 MrCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  23 2011-02-15 00:23:35 <jgarzik> edcba: that's a shift, not addition
  24 2011-02-15 00:23:52 <edcba> index is +1
  25 2011-02-15 00:24:00 <jgarzik> 1 << 0, 1 << 9, 1 << 31, 1 << 63, ...
  26 2011-02-15 00:24:12 <jgarzik> explicitly shows the bit number
  27 2011-02-15 00:24:14 <comboy> sipa: ping?
  28 2011-02-15 00:24:22 <newsham> map (1<<) [0,9,31,63]
  29 2011-02-15 00:25:00 theymos has joined
  30 2011-02-15 00:25:54 <edcba> i propose we do 0x80000000>>31 hahaha
  31 2011-02-15 00:26:02 <luke-jr> newsham: pretty sure that requires a $_
  32 2011-02-15 00:26:17 <edcba> now you see why it's wrong
  33 2011-02-15 00:26:49 <jgarzik> why what's wrong?
  34 2011-02-15 00:27:07 <jgarzik> it's just a notational method for defining bit masks.
  35 2011-02-15 00:27:18 <edcba> what is 0x80000000>>31 ?
  36 2011-02-15 00:27:27 plumb` is now known as Validus
  37 2011-02-15 00:27:34 <jgarzik> who cares?
  38 2011-02-15 00:28:12 <edcba> ...
  39 2011-02-15 00:28:23 <newsham> >>> 0x80000000 >> 31
  40 2011-02-15 00:28:23 <newsham> 1L
  41 2011-02-15 00:28:26 <newsham> a la python
  42 2011-02-15 00:29:13 <newsham> luke: that wasnt perl and hence doesnt need $_
  43 2011-02-15 00:29:28 <sipa> comboy: pong
  44 2011-02-15 00:29:59 <USSJoin> Sorry to ask again, but I'm trying to build puddinpop's rpcminer (with just a "make rpcminer" after the cmake step) and I get the error "‘get’ was not declared in this scope" . Any thoughts on what to poke?
  45 2011-02-15 00:30:25 <comboy> sipa: was just about to ask something abouth this p2p pooled mining idea but posted already in the thtread
  46 2011-02-15 00:30:26 <jgarzik> are you trying to make a point about C type promotion?
  47 2011-02-15 00:31:46 Lachesis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  48 2011-02-15 00:31:47 <jgarzik> for 64-bit integers, we often do (1ULL << 60) or whatnot
  49 2011-02-15 00:32:30 <newsham> its too bad C doesnt have typeless constants like golang does.
  50 2011-02-15 00:32:33 Lachesis has joined
  51 2011-02-15 00:32:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, you're no fun
  52 2011-02-15 00:32:47 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ps is there some reason that headers.h exists?
  53 2011-02-15 00:33:01 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: to which project do you refer?
  54 2011-02-15 00:33:07 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin
  55 2011-02-15 00:33:16 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  56 2011-02-15 00:33:28 <edcba> newsham: depends size and if signed or not
  57 2011-02-15 00:33:40 <sipa> comboy: and i answered :)
  58 2011-02-15 00:33:44 <newsham> ebcda: what does?
  59 2011-02-15 00:33:46 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: <shrug>
  60 2011-02-15 00:33:59 <edcba> also 1 << 99 won't work well
  61 2011-02-15 00:34:00 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: what alternative would you prefer?  all-in-one helps with PCH, I know.
  62 2011-02-15 00:34:28 <newsham> it wont?
  63 2011-02-15 00:34:34 <midnightmagic> uh. did mtgox always charge %0.65 for every trade? i've forgotten now.
  64 2011-02-15 00:34:36 <jgarzik> heh, not in C at least :)
  65 2011-02-15 00:34:48 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: no, it was free at first.  then paypal fraud hit.
  66 2011-02-15 00:34:53 <newsham> yah and I said "too bad C doesnt .... " etc
  67 2011-02-15 00:34:58 <phantomcircuit> edcba, sure it'll always be 0 though
  68 2011-02-15 00:35:07 <edcba> depends...
  69 2011-02-15 00:35:09 <luke-jr> wtf is up with JPY:BTC?
  70 2011-02-15 00:35:18 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: thank you! geez, i need more sleep. so the bots have to pay to do their thing then..
  71 2011-02-15 00:35:20 <phantomcircuit> edcba, you have a > 64bit integer cpu?
  72 2011-02-15 00:35:29 <comboy> sipa: thanks, I'm very skeptical about it to be honest, but well I was also skeptical about bitoicn before learning basics of how it works
  73 2011-02-15 00:35:53 <newsham> phantom: dont you?
  74 2011-02-15 00:36:10 <newsham> got 128-bit xmm registers?
  75 2011-02-15 00:36:15 <comboy> sipa: possibly n^2 problem could be solved when there would be many nodes connecting to just random part of them, like in bitcoin
  76 2011-02-15 00:36:43 <luke-jr> with AVX, I think my CPU has 256-bit registers now :p
  77 2011-02-15 00:36:56 <phantomcircuit> the hell
  78 2011-02-15 00:37:05 <phantomcircuit> $(CXX) -c $(CFLAGS) -msse2 -O3 -march=amdfam10 -o $@ $<
  79 2011-02-15 00:37:12 Kiba has joined
  80 2011-02-15 00:37:16 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ?
  81 2011-02-15 00:37:27 <luke-jr> yeah, -O3 is usually considered unsafe, but it often works too
  82 2011-02-15 00:37:33 <comboy> sipa: since unlike bitcoin it does not have to be a consistent chain if I get it correctly, we can insert something in the middle (I mean inside this shares list)
  83 2011-02-15 00:37:34 <phantomcircuit> amdfam10 ?
  84 2011-02-15 00:37:37 <newsham> edcba: http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html#tmp_175
  85 2011-02-15 00:37:41 <newsham>     const hardEight = (1 << 100) >> 97  // legal
  86 2011-02-15 00:37:46 paul0 has quit (Quit: paul0)
  87 2011-02-15 00:37:56 <edcba> newsham: bitcoin is coded in c++ as of now
  88 2011-02-15 00:37:56 <sipa> comboy: bitcoin *also* has an n^2 problem, if the number of transactions scales proportional to the number of network nodes
  89 2011-02-15 00:38:02 <luke-jr> "AMD Family 10h core based CPUs with x86-64 instruction set support.  (This supersets MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSE4A, 3dNOW!, enhanced 3dNOW!, ABM and 64-bit instruction set extensions.)"
  90 2011-02-15 00:38:08 <Kiba> hello
  91 2011-02-15 00:38:11 <Kiba> bitcoiners
  92 2011-02-15 00:38:24 <luke-jr> edcba: one client is
  93 2011-02-15 00:38:32 <luke-jr> newsham: feel free to write your own client
  94 2011-02-15 00:38:52 <newsham> dont worry, I wouldnt ask permission first if i was going to write one.
  95 2011-02-15 00:40:01 <comboy> sipa: well yes, there's thread currently about it, but there you just need to store them, there's 10mins to propagate (if I get it correctly), and here it should be faster, right?
  96 2011-02-15 00:40:12 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, seems like that would generate a very inefficient binary for just about any other system :|
  97 2011-02-15 00:40:37 <sipa> comboy: sure, but i don't expect pools to get as big as the whole bitcoin network
  98 2011-02-15 00:40:47 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: on other systems, it would crash
  99 2011-02-15 00:40:48 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 100 2011-02-15 00:40:56 <sipa> and some delay, even 10 minutes, is not a problem, actually
 101 2011-02-15 00:41:10 <sipa> as long as on average the tables remain up to date
 102 2011-02-15 00:41:25 <comboy> hmm
 103 2011-02-15 00:41:31 <sipa> of course, if people join and leave the pool every minute, that becomes an issue
 104 2011-02-15 00:41:34 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, not necessarily, if the system simply had different timing characteristics
 105 2011-02-15 00:41:50 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: which the description denies
 106 2011-02-15 00:41:58 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: for example, my CPU does not have 3dNOW!
 107 2011-02-15 00:42:03 <sipa> but in a stable situation, the distribution percentages won't change (in the ideal situation, they are even constant)
 108 2011-02-15 00:42:08 <sipa> + much
 109 2011-02-15 00:42:43 <comboy> it sounds interesting
 110 2011-02-15 00:42:53 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, huh mine doesnt either and yet it seems to work
 111 2011-02-15 00:42:56 * sipa needs urgent sleep now
 112 2011-02-15 00:42:58 <sipa> cya!
 113 2011-02-15 00:43:03 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: luck
 114 2011-02-15 00:43:11 <phantomcircuit> must not actually result in any 3dnow instructions being included in the build
 115 2011-02-15 00:43:15 <comboy> obviously still like in bitcoin itself as mentioned kind of flood/ddos attacks works
 116 2011-02-15 00:43:17 <Lachesis> anyone seen laszlo around recently?
 117 2011-02-15 00:43:27 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: use -march=generic :P
 118 2011-02-15 00:43:30 <comboy> slush could just ban these 100 slow workers
 119 2011-02-15 00:43:34 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, -march=native :P
 120 2011-02-15 00:43:42 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: generic, if you want something sharable
 121 2011-02-15 00:43:48 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, psh
 122 2011-02-15 00:44:18 <phantomcircuit> what's really needed is a shell script to parse /proc/cpuinfo and multiple binaries
 123 2011-02-15 00:44:21 <phantomcircuit> but well
 124 2011-02-15 00:44:22 <phantomcircuit> meh
 125 2011-02-15 00:44:40 <comboy> btw, I really think we should stress bitcoin notwork more while it's young and while good people are doing it
 126 2011-02-15 00:45:01 <comboy> ( http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3198.msg44882#msg44882 - shameless self bump)
 127 2011-02-15 00:45:52 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: seriously, it ISN'T going to make ANY noticable difference -.-
 128 2011-02-15 00:46:07 <phantomcircuit> comboy, that's a bad idea from my cursory analysis of the code base i can practically guarantee there are serious vulnerabilities
 129 2011-02-15 00:46:49 <edcba> what do you mean by serious ?
 130 2011-02-15 00:46:50 <comboy> phantomcircuit: then let's learn more about how bad they are in practice, better now than later
 131 2011-02-15 00:47:17 <Lachesis> comboy, what's wrong with stressing the testnet?
 132 2011-02-15 00:47:44 <phantomcircuit> edcba, there is almost certainly at least one rce
 133 2011-02-15 00:47:59 <phantomcircuit> probably dozens of crash bugs
 134 2011-02-15 00:48:00 <comboy> Lachesis: I think it's too small to prove anything
 135 2011-02-15 00:48:01 <edcba> reverse code engineering ?
 136 2011-02-15 00:48:06 <edcba> wtf is a rce ?
 137 2011-02-15 00:48:11 <ntosme2> remote code execution?
 138 2011-02-15 00:48:17 <edcba> lol
 139 2011-02-15 00:48:26 <edcba> i hope not !
 140 2011-02-15 00:48:45 <phantomcircuit> and im not even talking subtle bugs
 141 2011-02-15 00:48:46 <comboy> Lachesis: and when you are doing some stress test, you are doing it on the production machine, you want to know how bad it can be
 142 2011-02-15 00:48:47 <edcba> and i doubt it anyway
 143 2011-02-15 00:48:50 <newsham> eip=41414141
 144 2011-02-15 00:49:20 <ntosme2> I guess that means it's time to start my own "safe" implementation
 145 2011-02-15 00:49:27 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: I tried to find a couple of exploits I thought of and found them either patched or taken advantage of
 146 2011-02-15 00:49:55 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, there's at least one bug in the irc code but it's not exploitable with the current irc server
 147 2011-02-15 00:50:20 <luke-jr> oh
 148 2011-02-15 00:50:27 <luke-jr> can just rip that out
 149 2011-02-15 00:50:28 <luke-jr> :p
 150 2011-02-15 00:50:42 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 151 2011-02-15 00:50:44 <grubles> alright, need a little help here
 152 2011-02-15 00:50:52 <ntosme2> why is there irc code in the first place...
 153 2011-02-15 00:50:59 <luke-jr> ntosme2: bootstrapping
 154 2011-02-15 00:51:07 <ntosme2> ah, forgot
 155 2011-02-15 00:51:28 <newsham> why not just subscribe to a multicast address?
 156 2011-02-15 00:51:30 <newsham> *ducks*
 157 2011-02-15 00:51:41 <luke-jr> -noirc
 158 2011-02-15 00:51:50 <luke-jr> newsham: still way too spammy
 159 2011-02-15 00:51:54 <luke-jr> actually
 160 2011-02-15 00:52:02 <luke-jr> why doesn't bitcoin use multicast instead of p2p?
 161 2011-02-15 00:52:07 <luke-jr> just multicast your tx…
 162 2011-02-15 00:52:13 <grubles> i have one win 7 64bit computer running bitcoin.exe -server + poclbm x 4. i also have another rig with ubuntu 9.10 with a 5970 trying to run poclbm. how do i connect the poclbms to the windows bitcoin -server?
 163 2011-02-15 00:52:14 <newsham> multicast is not well supported
 164 2011-02-15 00:52:21 <luke-jr> newsham: it should be with IPv6
 165 2011-02-15 00:52:26 <newsham> its supposed to be
 166 2011-02-15 00:52:30 <newsham> is not the sam ething as it will be
 167 2011-02-15 00:53:01 <luke-jr> what is the IRC server/channel btw?
 168 2011-02-15 00:53:27 <theymos> #bitcoin on irc.lfnet.org
 169 2011-02-15 00:53:30 dirtyfilthy has joined
 170 2011-02-15 00:54:19 satamusic has joined
 171 2011-02-15 00:55:26 user is now known as lolcat
 172 2011-02-15 00:56:40 larsig has joined
 173 2011-02-15 00:59:59 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, i guarantee you multicast will be blocked over ipv6 simply because people wont understand that it's different from ipv4 multicast
 174 2011-02-15 01:00:18 <luke-jr> …
 175 2011-02-15 01:03:56 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, honestly i cant even figure out what uses sha256.o
 176 2011-02-15 01:03:58 llama has joined
 177 2011-02-15 01:04:08 <phantomcircuit> they all appear to be using cryptopp or openssl (yes both are used)
 178 2011-02-15 01:04:41 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 179 2011-02-15 01:05:20 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|whats the difference in multicast ipv6 and mcast ipv4?
 180 2011-02-15 01:05:28 <phantomcircuit> one works the other doesnt
 181 2011-02-15 01:05:30 <phantomcircuit> xD
 182 2011-02-15 01:05:43 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|because cisco default?
 183 2011-02-15 01:05:49 <phantomcircuit> something like that
 184 2011-02-15 01:06:01 <grubles> can anyone help me with this problem?
 185 2011-02-15 01:06:14 lolcat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 186 2011-02-15 01:06:15 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|yes
 187 2011-02-15 01:06:43 <grubles> ok
 188 2011-02-15 01:06:54 <grubles> i have 2 computers, one with windows 7 64bit
 189 2011-02-15 01:06:58 <grubles> the other, ubuntu 9.10
 190 2011-02-15 01:07:01 <grubles> 32 bit
 191 2011-02-15 01:07:10 * molecular zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|can help with the second one maybe
 192 2011-02-15 01:07:17 <grubles> the windows box is running bitcoin.exe -server
 193 2011-02-15 01:07:33 <grubles> and i have 4 poclbm instances running on there
 194 2011-02-15 01:07:45 <newsham> isnt that a bit backwards?  you'd prob get more bang for your buck running ubuntu 64bit and windows 32bit :)
 195 2011-02-15 01:07:46 <phantomcircuit> ah found it main.cpp:3599
 196 2011-02-15 01:08:22 <newsham> (also time to update ubuntu 9.x)
 197 2011-02-15 01:08:24 <grubles> now on the ubuntu box, i want to have 2 poclbm instances going, and have them connect to the bitcoin.exe on the windows box
 198 2011-02-15 01:08:49 <grubles> i have the flags and host/post setup (i believe) correctly
 199 2011-02-15 01:09:03 <nanotube> grubles: did you set the conf file to allow ip connections?
 200 2011-02-15 01:09:08 <nanotube> (by default it only listens on localhost)
 201 2011-02-15 01:09:25 <grubles> nanotube: nope
 202 2011-02-15 01:09:26 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|grubles did not even come to the point of exmplaining his problem, did he?
 203 2011-02-15 01:09:36 <grubles> didnt know that was needed
 204 2011-02-15 01:09:57 <nanotube> molecular|zapp: /me reads minds
 205 2011-02-15 01:09:58 <nanotube> heh
 206 2011-02-15 01:10:03 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|nanotube, you give the answer before the question, coool!
 207 2011-02-15 01:10:06 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|lol
 208 2011-02-15 01:10:13 <grubles> well if it wasnt clear, i want to have my 2 computers pooled basically
 209 2011-02-15 01:10:16 <newsham> give that man a btc
 210 2011-02-15 01:10:27 * nanotube accepts btc at ,,botsnack :)
 211 2011-02-15 01:10:27 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
 212 2011-02-15 01:10:35 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|yea! grubles should give nanotube some bitcoin
 213 2011-02-15 01:10:47 <newsham> from grubles to gribble
 214 2011-02-15 01:11:00 <molecular> zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|why gribble?
 215 2011-02-15 01:11:10 <newsham> [14:57] * nanotube accepts btc at ,,botsnack :)
 216 2011-02-15 01:11:10 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
 217 2011-02-15 01:12:04 <nanotube> molecular|zapp: gribble is my minion
 218 2011-02-15 01:12:09 <nanotube> anything he gets, i take :)
 219 2011-02-15 01:12:28 * molecular zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|is having a nice snack
 220 2011-02-15 01:13:07 <Lachesis> jgarzik, around?
 221 2011-02-15 01:13:51 <Lachesis> i was playing with minerd today, hoping to get a few extra mhps out of my quad core box and noticed that the --config option seems to be broken.
 222 2011-02-15 01:13:55 <Lachesis> anyone know anything about that?
 223 2011-02-15 01:14:03 <Lachesis> when i specify a config file it just returns the --help text
 224 2011-02-15 01:14:24 <grubles> is that your add. nanotube?
 225 2011-02-15 01:15:45 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
 226 2011-02-15 01:15:46 <nanotube> grubles: yep, the botsnack address goes to me. :)
 227 2011-02-15 01:16:08 <nanotube> Lachesis: are you using latest code? (just checking)
 228 2011-02-15 01:16:42 <Lachesis> nanotube, as of 10 minutes ago
 229 2011-02-15 01:16:51 <Lachesis> hold on let me triple check that it pulled correctly
 230 2011-02-15 01:16:59 <grubles> nanotube: incoming!
 231 2011-02-15 01:17:07 <nanotube> grubles: cool thanks :)
 232 2011-02-15 01:17:28 <Lachesis> nanotube, hmm so very strange
 233 2011-02-15 01:17:37 <nanotube> Lachesis: ?
 234 2011-02-15 01:17:42 <Lachesis> on my x64 laptop, it works
 235 2011-02-15 01:17:48 <Lachesis> on my x32 server, it doesn't
 236 2011-02-15 01:18:02 larsig has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 237 2011-02-15 01:18:24 <Lachesis> using the same cfg file (the example one)
 238 2011-02-15 01:19:43 <nanotube> Lachesis: mmm interesting. well, wait for jgarzik to show up :) or you could file an issue on his github repo :)
 239 2011-02-15 01:19:47 <Lachesis> yeah
 240 2011-02-15 01:20:13 <Lachesis> wonder if it's a library difference thing
 241 2011-02-15 01:20:47 <Lachesis> perhaps something with jansson?
 242 2011-02-15 01:21:39 <genjix> how can I check a block hash using sha256sum?
 243 2011-02-15 01:21:46 <Lachesis> genjix, with a lot of pain
 244 2011-02-15 01:21:55 <genjix> ?
 245 2011-02-15 01:22:09 <nanotube> grubles: got it, much appreciated. :)
 246 2011-02-15 01:22:12 <genjix> i have the block hash, nonce, ...
 247 2011-02-15 01:22:18 <genjix> i want to verify it using sha256sum
 248 2011-02-15 01:23:08 <nanotube> genjix: maybe follow the ,,(bc,wiki block hashing algo) though not sure if that's detailed enough
 249 2011-02-15 01:23:09 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm | 27 Jan 2011 ... Block hashing algorithm. From Bitcoin. Jump to: navigation, search. When generating, you constantly hash the block header. The block is also ...
 250 2011-02-15 01:23:18 <genjix> it's not
 251 2011-02-15 01:23:23 <genjix> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000271de9d8b94afff543366e290e995f3e3e337bb86a0b7bf02e8d1
 252 2011-02-15 01:23:25 <grubles> nanotube: would i add "addnode=$ip" or "rpcallowip=$ip"?
 253 2011-02-15 01:23:26 <genjix> take that
 254 2011-02-15 01:23:41 <genjix> hash = 00000000000271de9d8b94afff543366e290e995f3e3e337bb86a0b7bf02e8d1
 255 2011-02-15 01:23:50 <nanotube> grubles: rpcallowip
 256 2011-02-15 01:23:53 <noagendamarket> You know what would be the unltimate edibl;e bitcoin product ?
 257 2011-02-15 01:23:55 <genjix> previous hash = 00000000000148c04e58dca8e1a2df251339c81e2dfe1ff0e9d655b7b4ca428d
 258 2011-02-15 01:24:01 <genjix> nonce = 329961997
 259 2011-02-15 01:24:13 <dirtyfilthy> genjix: serialize it into the network protocol, then hash that
 260 2011-02-15 01:24:18 <grubles> nanotube: ok thank you
 261 2011-02-15 01:24:23 <genjix> now what do I do to hash the nonce and previous hash?
 262 2011-02-15 01:24:40 <dirtyfilthy> " " " "
 263 2011-02-15 01:25:04 <genjix> noagendamarket: detection free cannabis through mail XD
 264 2011-02-15 01:25:08 <nanotube> genjix: not sure what order they go in and how they're encoded for sha hashing... (also, iirc they get hashed twice, so it's sha(sha(data))
 265 2011-02-15 01:25:11 <nanotube> )
 266 2011-02-15 01:25:26 <genjix> ill forum post
 267 2011-02-15 01:25:31 <grubles> nanotube: im in business, tyvm for your help
 268 2011-02-15 01:25:41 <nanotube> grubles: no prob, enjoy your private mining pool :)
 269 2011-02-15 01:25:54 <dirtyfilthy> genjix: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Block_Headers
 270 2011-02-15 01:26:03 <grubles> :P
 271 2011-02-15 01:26:08 <dirtyfilthy> make that, sha256 it twice
 272 2011-02-15 01:26:26 <genjix> thank you
 273 2011-02-15 01:27:10 <dirtyfilthy> don't include the transaction count
 274 2011-02-15 01:27:47 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 275 2011-02-15 01:31:41 <grubles> hmm im getting "verification failed, check hardware!" from poclbm now
 276 2011-02-15 01:31:59 dishwara has joined
 277 2011-02-15 01:32:06 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 1600
 278 2011-02-15 01:32:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1600 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 years, 11 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 25 minutes, and 27 seconds
 279 2011-02-15 01:32:59 <ntosme2> ^^^ so essentially never, assuming increasing difficulty
 280 2011-02-15 01:33:11 <phantomcircuit> yes i got that much :P
 281 2011-02-15 01:33:30 <ntosme2> that's pretty amusing
 282 2011-02-15 01:36:10 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 283 2011-02-15 01:36:17 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 4158
 284 2011-02-15 01:36:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4158 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 44 weeks, 2 days, 19 hours, 31 minutes, and 7 seconds
 285 2011-02-15 01:36:35 <genjix> is bitcoin big endian or little endian?
 286 2011-02-15 01:36:48 <phantomcircuit> genjix, the network protocol is mostly little endian
 287 2011-02-15 01:36:55 <phantomcircuit> iirc there is at least one exception
 288 2011-02-15 01:37:07 <genjix> thanks
 289 2011-02-15 01:40:53 darsk1ez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 290 2011-02-15 01:41:12 Lachesis has joined
 291 2011-02-15 01:42:17 <Kiba> woah, I am up to 2505 posts already
 292 2011-02-15 01:42:34 <genjix> MT`AwAy: could I have some webspace to add automatic wallet backup to the client? ^_^  ;)
 293 2011-02-15 01:43:08 <MT`AwAy> genjix: yep
 294 2011-02-15 01:43:13 <MT`AwAy> genjix: just open priv
 295 2011-02-15 01:43:14 <genjix> ty
 296 2011-02-15 01:43:45 <dirtyfilthy> phantomcircuit: what's the exception?
 297 2011-02-15 01:43:48 <genjix> if anybody has ideas here (see last post),
 298 2011-02-15 01:43:49 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3451.0
 299 2011-02-15 01:43:53 <genjix> i would appreciate them.
 300 2011-02-15 01:44:34 darsk1ez has joined
 301 2011-02-15 01:49:02 <comboy> genjix: would be nice to note it's just a gui rpc client, not a real bitcoin client, I got too excited ;)
 302 2011-02-15 01:49:16 <genjix> why? there's no difference.
 303 2011-02-15 01:49:29 <comboy> uhm
 304 2011-02-15 01:49:39 <phantomcircuit> genjix, lol yes there is
 305 2011-02-15 01:49:45 <phantomcircuit> still a pretty client
 306 2011-02-15 01:49:46 <comboy> like there is no difference between color of your car and it's engine
 307 2011-02-15 01:50:15 <comboy> yeah I lie that you did it too, dont'g get me wrong, just thead title may fool some people
 308 2011-02-15 01:53:54 <phantomcircuit> Variable length integer
 309 2011-02-15 01:53:56 <phantomcircuit> oh wow
 310 2011-02-15 01:53:58 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
 311 2011-02-15 01:54:21 <dirtyfilthy> ?
 312 2011-02-15 01:54:42 <phantomcircuit> serious over optimization in the network protocol
 313 2011-02-15 01:54:49 <dirtyfilthy> ah yeah, totally
 314 2011-02-15 01:55:02 <dirtyfilthy> saving bytes
 315 2011-02-15 01:55:12 <phantomcircuit> no wonder it looks like spaghetti
 316 2011-02-15 01:55:22 <dirtyfilthy> as many as three in some circumstances
 317 2011-02-15 01:56:01 <phantomcircuit> also i like the ASCII encoded command field
 318 2011-02-15 01:56:14 <phantomcircuit> because defining command codes would be so hard
 319 2011-02-15 01:56:23 <ntosme2> !!! that's just sad
 320 2011-02-15 01:56:39 <phantomcircuit> watchign a network dump is hilarious
 321 2011-02-15 01:56:49 <phantomcircuit> *gibberish*version*gibberish*
 322 2011-02-15 01:57:56 gavinandresen has joined
 323 2011-02-15 01:59:20 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: what did you do to the chat logs?   http://veritas.maximilianeum.ch/bitcoin/irc/logs/2011/02/15
 324 2011-02-15 02:00:36 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, is that your logs?
 325 2011-02-15 02:01:36 <gavinandresen> Nope, not my logs....
 326 2011-02-15 02:01:45 <phantomcircuit> do you know whose they are?
 327 2011-02-15 02:01:47 <dirtyfilthy> <script>alert("hurroh!")</script>
 328 2011-02-15 02:01:48 <jgarzik> Lachesis: that means your JSON is broken
 329 2011-02-15 02:01:55 sethsethseth has joined
 330 2011-02-15 02:02:06 <phantomcircuit> <script type="text/javascript">window.location="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cross-site_scripting"</script>
 331 2011-02-15 02:02:10 <phantomcircuit> dirtyfilthy, lame
 332 2011-02-15 02:02:46 <sethsethseth> question:  how long does it take to confirm a transaction with say >95% certainity?  how many blocks would this be?
 333 2011-02-15 02:03:16 <noagendamarket> 6
 334 2011-02-15 02:03:31 <gavinandresen> sethsethseth: depends on what % of the network your theoretical attacker controls
 335 2011-02-15 02:03:38 <noagendamarket> youre pretty safe with 1
 336 2011-02-15 02:03:47 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
 337 2011-02-15 02:03:47 <sethsethseth> prob 95% with 1 right?
 338 2011-02-15 02:04:12 <gavinandresen> There's a couple of tables at the end of satoshi's paper calculating the probabilities.
 339 2011-02-15 02:04:23 <sethsethseth> i see that
 340 2011-02-15 02:04:32 <sethsethseth> i dont know how to use the forumula
 341 2011-02-15 02:05:10 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, NOW we've broken the logs
 342 2011-02-15 02:05:16 <sethsethseth> now the 1 block after the transactions, is this a new block that has just been mined?  or is this just more transactions piled up?
 343 2011-02-15 02:05:32 <gavinandresen> If it is a small transaction and you don't have a good reason to suspect that the person you're transacting with will try hard to screw you, then 1 is plenty good enough.
 344 2011-02-15 02:06:20 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  yup.   Hey, you were talking about vulnerabilities before... are you all talk or are you willing to help fix stuff?
 345 2011-02-15 02:06:29 <sethsethseth> im confused about the term "block" here, does taht refer to a new mined block, or the record of everything
 346 2011-02-15 02:06:32 <phantomcircuit> it's less a question of the number of confirmations and more a question of how much you trust those confirmations to remain online
 347 2011-02-15 02:06:56 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, im considering implementing a actual separate client
 348 2011-02-15 02:07:01 <phantomcircuit> s/a /an/
 349 2011-02-15 02:07:32 <gavinandresen> Cool, diversity is good.  Don't underestimate how much work it'll be, though....
 350 2011-02-15 02:07:36 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, currently im fixing the build process on *nix by adding wx-config support, which i now see someone else has added
 351 2011-02-15 02:07:41 <dirtyfilthy> it's a lot of work
 352 2011-02-15 02:07:49 <sethsethseth> how fast does the new transaction actually get passed around the nodes?
 353 2011-02-15 02:08:06 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: jgarzik is doing an autotools IIRC
 354 2011-02-15 02:08:13 <gavinandresen> RE: fixing the build process:  having just gone through the build process, I'm thinking we need to re-arrange the bitcoin source directory structure.....
 355 2011-02-15 02:08:26 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, dear god no, that'll easy triple the build process time
 356 2011-02-15 02:08:44 <dirtyfilthy> phantomcircuit: what would you write it in?
 357 2011-02-15 02:09:06 <gavinandresen> (and I think we should pull the wx-config patch just as soon as 0.3.20 is fully out the door)
 358 2011-02-15 02:09:09 <phantomcircuit> dirtyfilthy, ill decide after i finish reading the paper again
 359 2011-02-15 02:09:22 <ntosme2> this is just bad ... "numbers in the protocol are not encoded in network byteorder, but rely on little endian"
 360 2011-02-15 02:09:43 <phantomcircuit> but for right now
 361 2011-02-15 02:09:50 <phantomcircuit> im going to go shoot people in cs:s
 362 2011-02-15 02:10:02 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 363 2011-02-15 02:10:07 <tcatm> sethsethseth: I measured it last year. About 2 minutes.
 364 2011-02-15 02:10:13 <gavinandresen> yeah, i think he's mostly talk....
 365 2011-02-15 02:10:30 <grubles> while running 2 instances of poclbm w/ a 5970 on ubuntu 9.10, it seems one instance is cutting into the other's hashes / second
 366 2011-02-15 02:10:51 <grubles> even when specifying -d 1 and -d 2
 367 2011-02-15 02:10:58 <luke-jr> ntosme2: to make it worse, some IS big endian
 368 2011-02-15 02:11:16 <ntosme2> luke-jr: well crap
 369 2011-02-15 02:11:18 <dirtyfilthy> i'm about 55% of the way implementing a client (i think) but that other 45% keeps getting longer and longer... ;)
 370 2011-02-15 02:11:47 <gavinandresen> dirtyfilthy: I know that feeling....
 371 2011-02-15 02:11:56 <ntosme2> can we fork the format and make things consistent please?
 372 2011-02-15 02:12:02 <tcatm> Don't worry. IIRC it took three years for 0.3.20 :)
 373 2011-02-15 02:12:10 <gavinandresen> fork what format?  the bitcoin protocol?
 374 2011-02-15 02:12:16 <ntosme2> heh yes
 375 2011-02-15 02:12:17 <dirtyfilthy> hard
 376 2011-02-15 02:12:33 <ntosme2> is there any form of version field?
 377 2011-02-15 02:12:35 <docl> http://videocardz.com/ati/radeon-6000/radeon-6990 is this likely to be significantly better than a 5970?
 378 2011-02-15 02:12:38 <dirtyfilthy> yes
 379 2011-02-15 02:12:45 <gavinandresen> Actually, somebody implementing a 'dual stack' client that spoke a different protocol over a different networking layer would be great, in my opinion.
 380 2011-02-15 02:13:05 <ntosme2> that's what I'm considering
 381 2011-02-15 02:13:05 <gavinandresen> ... maybe use protocol buffers (mmmm... protocol buffers....)...
 382 2011-02-15 02:13:31 <tcatm> docl: no
 383 2011-02-15 02:14:12 <gavinandresen> ntosme2:  just don't underestimate how much work it'll be.
 384 2011-02-15 02:14:37 <gavinandresen> ntosme2:  ... and if the only reason you do it is so the bytes are lined up pretty on the wire... well, nobody will probably care.
 385 2011-02-15 02:14:52 <ntosme2> gavinandresen: oh I know, I certainly haven't committed
 386 2011-02-15 02:15:06 <andrew12> hmm, which linux distro do you guys reccomend to run on a macbook? :o)
 387 2011-02-15 02:15:08 <ntosme2> I'm reading the code for the moment
 388 2011-02-15 02:15:14 satamusic_ has joined
 389 2011-02-15 02:15:46 <ntosme2> andrew12: Ubuntu, or Gentoo if you're masochistic like me
 390 2011-02-15 02:15:55 <gavinandresen> great!   if you could read rpc.cpp, some people have been experiencing crashes under heavy JSON-RPC load.  Haven't been able to reliably reproduce, though....
 391 2011-02-15 02:15:56 <andrew12> lol
 392 2011-02-15 02:16:13 <docl> tcatm: can you expand on that a little?
 393 2011-02-15 02:16:18 <andrew12> I could try.
 394 2011-02-15 02:16:38 satamusic has quit (Disconnected by services)
 395 2011-02-15 02:16:46 satamusic_ is now known as satamusic
 396 2011-02-15 02:16:58 <Kiba> is the forum of any use?
 397 2011-02-15 02:17:05 <dirtyfilthy> ntosme2: if you're interested in (half) another implementation i have a version in java that speaks the protocol and downloads the blockchain, https://github.com/dirtyfilthy/bitcoin-wallet
 398 2011-02-15 02:17:06 <Kiba> err
 399 2011-02-15 02:17:08 <Kiba> is the forum up?
 400 2011-02-15 02:17:10 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
 401 2011-02-15 02:17:10 satamusic has joined
 402 2011-02-15 02:17:23 <andrew12> s/is/are/
 403 2011-02-15 02:17:32 <ntosme2> dirtyfilthy: ah that sounds useful, I was considering Python
 404 2011-02-15 02:17:35 * andrew12 grammar nazi
 405 2011-02-15 02:17:46 <gavinandresen> mmmm.... python.....
 406 2011-02-15 02:17:47 <tcatm> docl: IIRC ArtForz said it should be about the same speed as 5970 today (=> grep logs at  http://bit.ly/cdmwSu)
 407 2011-02-15 02:18:11 <genjix> gavinandresen: did you see my isinitialized rpc patch?
 408 2011-02-15 02:18:17 <dirtyfilthy> ntosme2: the original src should always be your first port of call, but my code my help with figuring out how things work
 409 2011-02-15 02:18:27 dishwara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 410 2011-02-15 02:18:27 <dirtyfilthy> *might help
 411 2011-02-15 02:18:31 <gavinandresen> genjix:  yup.  Why did you make it a whole new rpc call?
 412 2011-02-15 02:18:44 <gavinandresen> (why not just another bit of info returned from getinfo?)
 413 2011-02-15 02:18:52 <genjix> because getinfo returns database info
 414 2011-02-15 02:18:56 <genjix> which is still initialising
 415 2011-02-15 02:19:06 <docl> tcatm: thanks
 416 2011-02-15 02:19:09 <genjix> only help/isinitialized are allowed to be run while AppInit is still working
 417 2011-02-15 02:19:14 <gavinandresen> So what happens if you call getinfo before the database is initialized?
 418 2011-02-15 02:19:22 <gavinandresen> (with your patch)
 419 2011-02-15 02:19:24 <genjix> throws an error in RpcCall
 420 2011-02-15 02:19:26 <tcatm> you could make all RPC calls return errors while the client isn't initialized
 421 2011-02-15 02:19:45 <genjix> says you need to wait for initialization to complete.
 422 2011-02-15 02:20:00 <presence> my diablominer keeps crashing :(
 423 2011-02-15 02:20:14 <gavinandresen> So we don't need your patch at all, you can just catch that error to tell whether the client is initialized or not....
 424 2011-02-15 02:20:45 <gavinandresen> (or, at least, don't need the new RPC call, just the move-listen-sooner part of it)
 425 2011-02-15 02:20:46 <genjix> umm you still need the isinitialized bool
 426 2011-02-15 02:21:03 <genjix> and if it exists then why not have a getter in the rpc interface?
 427 2011-02-15 02:21:04 <gavinandresen> ok, and the isinitialized bool so it throws an error.
 428 2011-02-15 02:21:29 <genjix> python philosophy says it's not good practice to check states by trying to check for exceptions? :)
 429 2011-02-15 02:21:33 <gavinandresen> because I'm of the python philosophy of "there's one right way to do it" and not the perl "there's more than one way to do it"
 430 2011-02-15 02:21:37 <genjix> -?
 431 2011-02-15 02:22:07 <gavinandresen> Huh?  python is very much about "don't be afraid to throw an exception"
 432 2011-02-15 02:22:14 <genjix> right. what I'm saying is that looping until the rpc stops throwing exceptions is bad practice
 433 2011-02-15 02:22:23 <genjix> because exceptions are not things to be expected
 434 2011-02-15 02:22:32 <genjix> they should be unusual
 435 2011-02-15 02:22:36 <gavinandresen> ... so you're going to loop until isinitialized returns true?
 436 2011-02-15 02:22:41 <genjix> yep
 437 2011-02-15 02:22:47 <genjix> it shows a progress bar
 438 2011-02-15 02:23:06 <ntosme2> ugh, rpc.cpp == 2074 lines
 439 2011-02-15 02:23:10 <genjix> every 1 second it does a check to see if initialisation completed.
 440 2011-02-15 02:23:23 <gavinandresen> ntosme2:  hey, there's a little HTTP server in there!  what did you expect?
 441 2011-02-15 02:23:43 * genjix is pretty fond of rpc :)
 442 2011-02-15 02:23:51 <genjix> nice simple
 443 2011-02-15 02:23:53 <gavinandresen> genjix:  seems cleaner to me to call getinfo (or whatever the first piece of info you need is) and loop until it succeeds.
 444 2011-02-15 02:24:45 <tcatm> When using getinfo you don't even need a patch at all. If the client isn't initialized it'll refuse the connection anyway.
 445 2011-02-15 02:24:53 <ntosme2> genjix: this is where python's httpserver code would come in really handy
 446 2011-02-15 02:24:56 <gavinandresen> But who am I to say?  Get consensus that a new isinitialized rpc method is a great idea and we'll make rpc.cpp even longer....
 447 2011-02-15 02:25:18 <genjix> no getinfo returns info about bitcoins initialised state
 448 2011-02-15 02:25:36 <genjix> unless we exclude some fields when not initialised
 449 2011-02-15 02:25:46 <genjix> "keypoololdest" : 1297625320
 450 2011-02-15 02:25:51 <gavinandresen> That'd be ok with me.
 451 2011-02-15 02:26:06 <genjix> ok nice :)
 452 2011-02-15 02:26:21 <genjix> and isinitialized will block everything except help/getinfo
 453 2011-02-15 02:26:39 Yurumtin has joined
 454 2011-02-15 02:26:41 <gavinandresen> that sounds right.
 455 2011-02-15 02:27:54 <genjix> thanks.
 456 2011-02-15 02:28:51 <tcatm> coding.txt: s/isinitialized/fInitialized/
 457 2011-02-15 02:28:54 octarine has joined
 458 2011-02-15 02:29:35 <gavinandresen> tcatm: good catch
 459 2011-02-15 02:29:49 <gavinandresen> genjix: listen to tcatm
 460 2011-02-15 02:30:10 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
 461 2011-02-15 02:30:12 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108151 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 712 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 16 hours, 24 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34181.47043374
 462 2011-02-15 02:30:13 pogden has joined
 463 2011-02-15 02:30:51 <gavinandresen> I wonder if we'll ever be saying "remember the days when difficulty was under a million...."
 464 2011-02-15 02:31:14 <genjix> tcatm: ? the variable is an  extern bool initialization_completed; in rpc.h
 465 2011-02-15 02:31:39 <genjix> ahh ok
 466 2011-02-15 02:31:43 <gavinandresen> genjix:  see coding.txt for coding style.  No underscores, use f for bools, etc etc
 467 2011-02-15 02:31:43 <genjix> thank you
 468 2011-02-15 02:31:50 <genjix> yep :)
 469 2011-02-15 02:32:28 <gavinandresen> ... I still screw up and put the {}'s in the wrong place... (old habits are hard to break)
 470 2011-02-15 02:32:57 Yurumtin has left ()
 471 2011-02-15 02:33:29 <genjix> yep, i keep getting confused with all these competing coding styles
 472 2011-02-15 02:33:36 <tcatm> Can C++ do something like if x in ["abc", "def"] ?
 473 2011-02-15 02:33:43 <genjix> no
 474 2011-02-15 02:33:59 <genjix> but you can return a reference using the operator
 475 2011-02-15 02:34:12 <genjix> so you can do  object("abc")("def")
 476 2011-02-15 02:35:29 <tcatm> Would it make sense to throw the exception in every RPC function the needs an initialized node instead?
 477 2011-02-15 02:35:34 <midnightmagic_> i shall always use the 1TBS.. *snif*
 478 2011-02-15 02:35:44 <tcatm> s/the n/that n/
 479 2011-02-15 02:36:04 lzd_hz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 480 2011-02-15 02:36:29 <gavinandresen> you'll make ntosme2 sad if you make rpc.cpp any longer with all that duplicated exception throwing code...
 481 2011-02-15 02:37:07 <ntosme2> hehe, indeed
 482 2011-02-15 02:41:45 <genjix> im gonna make some slides for the intro screen when downloading the block chain
 483 2011-02-15 02:42:42 <tcatm> genjix: btw, did you see my category=generate patch?
 484 2011-02-15 02:42:54 <genjix> 1. using bitcoin, 2. bitcoin faucet, 3. mtgox, 4. bitcoinwatch.com stats + mtgox graph, 5. ... forums or something :p
 485 2011-02-15 02:43:02 <gavinandresen> genjix: nice.  if they're helpful, feel free to use anything from here:  http://www.skypaint.com/bitcoin/GavinIgniteTalk.pdf   (talk I gave last week)
 486 2011-02-15 02:43:43 <genjix> ok great. pass everything to me... im collecting bitcoin info for beginners
 487 2011-02-15 02:44:05 <genjix> tcatm: no, where is it?
 488 2011-02-15 02:44:20 <genjix> do people still use the dev section of forum for patches?
 489 2011-02-15 02:44:31 <tcatm> https://gist.github.com/825986
 490 2011-02-15 02:44:48 <dirtyfilthy> what do people think about including a partial predigested blockchain with a client?
 491 2011-02-15 02:44:57 <tcatm> I prefer github pull requests (and attached discussion).
 492 2011-02-15 02:45:06 <dirtyfilthy> i.e. first 100,000 block headers or something
 493 2011-02-15 02:45:15 <JunK-Y> how can i solve: ImportError: No module named pyopencl
 494 2011-02-15 02:45:50 <JunK-Y> on ubuntu 10.04
 495 2011-02-15 02:45:59 <genjix> thanks tcatm
 496 2011-02-15 02:46:08 <tcatm> dirtyfilthy: Re-downloading the chain should be faster
 497 2011-02-15 02:46:28 <doublec> JunK-Y: apt-get install python-pyopencl
 498 2011-02-15 02:46:46 <tcatm> For very fast verification you could download from multiple clients and check if the blocks match.
 499 2011-02-15 02:46:50 <JunK-Y> doublec: E: Couldn't find package python-pyopencl
 500 2011-02-15 02:46:53 <genjix> tcatm: aha great. thanks
 501 2011-02-15 02:46:59 <JunK-Y> is it specific to ubuntu 10.10 ?
 502 2011-02-15 02:47:04 <doublec> JunK-Y: you'll have to hunt it down and install it manually
 503 2011-02-15 02:47:18 <doublec> I think 10.10 has it
 504 2011-02-15 02:47:22 <sethsethseth> what is the average time for a 1 block verification now?
 505 2011-02-15 02:47:26 <tcatm> genjix: main.py should catch KeyboardInterrupt...
 506 2011-02-15 02:48:01 <tcatm> sethsethseth: 6.7 min
 507 2011-02-15 02:48:02 <genjix> catch, quit app and then re-throw?
 508 2011-02-15 02:48:02 <dirtyfilthy> tcatm: actually i'm finding the bottleneck is actually verifying (on android, emulator)
 509 2011-02-15 02:48:13 <dirtyfilthy> with just block headers
 510 2011-02-15 02:48:25 <dirtyfilthy> 2000 blocks is like a 161k download
 511 2011-02-15 02:48:50 <dirtyfilthy> if your on wifi that's only a few seconds
 512 2011-02-15 02:48:51 <genjix> gavinandresen: I uploaded new patch as per your suggestions, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3419.msg48136
 513 2011-02-15 02:48:54 <JunK-Y> doublec: let me try to install  pyopencl-0.92.tar.gz
 514 2011-02-15 02:49:08 <tcatm> dirtyfilthy: That's acceptable
 515 2011-02-15 02:49:30 <dirtyfilthy> yeh, and then verifying 2000 blocks takes like 3 minutes or so
 516 2011-02-15 02:49:58 <tcatm> so download twice or more from multiple sources and compare those blocks
 517 2011-02-15 02:49:58 <genjix> so I try to run git fetch https://gist.github.com/825986
 518 2011-02-15 02:50:06 <genjix> error: The requested URL returned error: 500 while accessing https://gist.github.com/825986/info/refs
 519 2011-02-15 02:50:10 <genjix> fatal: HTTP request failed
 520 2011-02-15 02:50:28 <dirtyfilthy> tcatm: ah right, yeah i get you, and don't bother verifying them yourself, just that they match
 521 2011-02-15 02:51:03 <da2ce7> fucking group signuture... the more you research the more complex they get.
 522 2011-02-15 02:51:05 <da2ce7> :(
 523 2011-02-15 02:51:21 <genjix> da2ce7: are you trying to do shared wallets?
 524 2011-02-15 02:51:34 <genjix> where multiple people have to sign it to authorise transactions?
 525 2011-02-15 02:51:48 <tcatm> dirtyfilthy: yep, well maybe verify the latest n blocks on the phone or random blocks every 10000 blocks?
 526 2011-02-15 02:51:49 <da2ce7> nope. that is the opposite to what I want to do.
 527 2011-02-15 02:52:18 <da2ce7> group signutres say that multipe people can spend one wallet... except you don't know who
 528 2011-02-15 02:52:36 <genjix> cool
 529 2011-02-15 02:52:36 <dirtyfilthy> tcatm: mmm, cheers dude, you've certainly given me something to think about
 530 2011-02-15 02:52:48 <da2ce7> but if sombody abuses the system the manager can work out who did it.
 531 2011-02-15 02:53:46 <tcatm> and one last idea: mark unverified blocks and verify them once you need a txout from them (triggering reorg and all that stuff when verification fails)
 532 2011-02-15 02:55:01 <da2ce7> I will be Recruiting soon to my super secert (well not really), but at least cool idea.
 533 2011-02-15 02:55:05 <da2ce7> :_)
 534 2011-02-15 02:55:22 Shfork has joined
 535 2011-02-15 02:55:24 <dirtyfilthy> part of the problem is that you can verify a block (hashes correctly, right difficulty, in right timestamp range etc) but you don't have a verified chain unless all the blocks in the chain are verified
 536 2011-02-15 02:56:35 Bimmerhead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 537 2011-02-15 02:57:17 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 538 2011-02-15 02:58:01 <tcatm> dirtyfilthy: does the verification code any signature checking?
 539 2011-02-15 02:59:12 <dirtyfilthy> nope
 540 2011-02-15 02:59:28 <dirtyfilthy> i might just be doing things some real slow way of course
 541 2011-02-15 02:59:54 <tcatm> Is your code public?
 542 2011-02-15 03:00:22 <dirtyfilthy> yep
 543 2011-02-15 03:00:35 <tcatm> url?
 544 2011-02-15 03:00:44 <dirtyfilthy> https://github.com/dirtyfilthy/bitcoin-wallet/
 545 2011-02-15 03:01:13 <da2ce7> I'm looking into sign(personal) - encrypt - sign(group) solutions.
 546 2011-02-15 03:01:59 genjix has quit (Changing host)
 547 2011-02-15 03:01:59 genjix has joined
 548 2011-02-15 03:02:03 <JunK-Y> can I run m0mchil using ATI stream?
 549 2011-02-15 03:02:11 <da2ce7> yep
 550 2011-02-15 03:02:19 <da2ce7> JunK-Y, what os?
 551 2011-02-15 03:02:35 <dirtyfilthy> https://github.com/dirtyfilthy/bitcoin-wallet/blob/master/src/net/dirtyfilthy/bitcoin/core/BlockChain.java addBlock is the relevant function
 552 2011-02-15 03:03:10 <JunK-Y> linux
 553 2011-02-15 03:03:14 <tcatm> have you tried to profile that code during block download to see where it spends most of the time?
 554 2011-02-15 03:03:22 <JunK-Y> specifically, ubuntu 10.04 64
 555 2011-02-15 03:04:07 <dirtyfilthy> yeh, i guess that's my next step
 556 2011-02-15 03:04:35 <tcatm> getMedianTimePast looks like it does a lot of .getPrevious()
 557 2011-02-15 03:04:43 lzd_hz has joined
 558 2011-02-15 03:04:49 <dirtyfilthy> for a garbage collected platform you sure have to be careful with memory allocation on android
 559 2011-02-15 03:04:58 <tcatm> Maybe you could calculate the median on-the-fly in addBlock?
 560 2011-02-15 03:05:13 <presence> if poclbm doesnt see your gpu...is there something special you have to do?  DiabloMiner sees it without problem
 561 2011-02-15 03:05:25 <tcatm> Assuming you get the blocks in ascending order...
 562 2011-02-15 03:05:46 <dirtyfilthy> tcatm: that's a good call, you could always do the old way if you receive out of order blocks
 563 2011-02-15 03:05:55 <tcatm> yep
 564 2011-02-15 03:06:10 <JunK-Y> da2ce7: any hint?
 565 2011-02-15 03:06:16 <sethsethseth> are there any modified clients out?
 566 2011-02-15 03:06:28 <presence> hmm...not running as root makes it work
 567 2011-02-15 03:06:30 <presence> odd as hell
 568 2011-02-15 03:07:41 <tcatm> dirtyfilthy: also keep a pointer to the prevblock around so you can skip the prev=blockStore.getPrev..
 569 2011-02-15 03:08:24 <sethsethseth> i would like a client that lets me send BTC with sooner than 6 confirmations if i know the source is trusted
 570 2011-02-15 03:08:55 <doublec> I don't think it limits it to 6 does it?
 571 2011-02-15 03:09:00 <doublec> I thought it only limited it to 1.
 572 2011-02-15 03:09:16 <sethsethseth> rly?  i'll try again
 573 2011-02-15 03:09:40 <doublec> it used to allow sending of unconfirmed. I'd sometimes have long changes of unconfirmed transactions waiting for the initial confirmation to filter through.
 574 2011-02-15 03:09:44 <da2ce7> sorry, JunK-Y windows user here.
 575 2011-02-15 03:10:31 <dirtyfilthy> tcatm, yeah already done that, the SqlBlockStore handles all that caching
 576 2011-02-15 03:13:05 mtgox2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 577 2011-02-15 03:22:40 wizzard0 has joined
 578 2011-02-15 03:22:58 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 579 2011-02-15 03:26:48 molecular has quit (zapp!~molecular@188-192-73-214-dynip.superkabel.de|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 580 2011-02-15 03:29:07 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 581 2011-02-15 03:30:10 <sethsethseth> question:  i am generating at 70Mhash/s with a pooled miner.  will i get transaction fees from people for processing?
 582 2011-02-15 03:32:08 bitcoiner has joined
 583 2011-02-15 03:32:30 <doublec> sethsethseth: with slush's pool I believe slush gets the transactoin fees
 584 2011-02-15 03:32:46 <JunK-Y> 2,4 or 6% if im not wrong
 585 2011-02-15 03:33:01 <JunK-Y> any hint if i cant compile pyopencl-0.92 manually?
 586 2011-02-15 03:36:06 <doublec> upgrade to ubuntu 10.10?
 587 2011-02-15 03:37:33 <sethsethseth> what nodes are all teh transaction fees going to for all the bitcoin transfers that are going on in the whole network
 588 2011-02-15 03:37:51 <sethsethseth> bah thats not very clear question
 589 2011-02-15 03:39:58 m86 has quit (Changing host)
 590 2011-02-15 03:39:58 m86 has joined
 591 2011-02-15 03:40:35 <OneFixt> sethsethseth: to whoever solve the block
 592 2011-02-15 03:40:44 <OneFixt> solves*
 593 2011-02-15 03:40:52 <OneFixt> and whomever
 594 2011-02-15 03:42:38 <Validus> on slush's you can pick 2 %, 4 % or 6 %
 595 2011-02-15 03:43:12 <Validus> oh ya u just said that
 596 2011-02-15 03:43:16 <Validus> i should read more . lol
 597 2011-02-15 03:43:58 <sethsethseth> ahh, so if i solve a block myself, i get transaction fees
 598 2011-02-15 03:44:16 <sethsethseth> how much are those worth?  should i dump the cooperative mining?
 599 2011-02-15 03:44:43 <Validus> depends on how many you help with and the # of users
 600 2011-02-15 03:44:59 <Validus> you dont have to solve the block yourself on pooling
 601 2011-02-15 03:45:00 <doublec> I don't think there's much in the way of transaction fees going around
 602 2011-02-15 03:45:20 <doublec> Validus: I think you are referring to the donation percentage
 603 2011-02-15 03:45:36 <doublec> sethsethseth is referring to the transaction fees given to block generators
 604 2011-02-15 03:46:17 <Validus> i assumed when it sends your btc threshold you selected itll send the % in the form of a fee
 605 2011-02-15 03:47:04 <doublec> that is different than the tranasction fees that sethsethseth is talking about
 606 2011-02-15 03:47:25 <doublec> http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=transaction_fee
 607 2011-02-15 03:49:23 <luke-jr> sethsethseth: slush's pool splits fees too
 608 2011-02-15 03:49:50 <sethsethseth> orly?
 609 2011-02-15 03:49:52 <sethsethseth> okgood
 610 2011-02-15 03:50:25 <sethsethseth> i would still like an estimate of how much transaction fees are being done
 611 2011-02-15 03:50:51 <doublec> luke-jr: not unless things have changed since http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1976.msg42122#msg42122
 612 2011-02-15 03:51:08 <doublec> "As I was declared this many times before, currently pool keeps fees for self. Afaik, in whole pool history there are only ~0.05 BTC in fees. Once it will become any significant amount, I'll start calculating fees into participant rewards."
 613 2011-02-15 03:51:49 <da2ce7> here it goes: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3487.0
 614 2011-02-15 03:53:40 Lachesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 615 2011-02-15 03:54:14 <dirtyfilthy> da2ce7: give me tl;dr version, given it's huge increase in complexity, what benefits does it provide?
 616 2011-02-15 03:57:25 <da2ce7> posts auto web-of-trust, forums can be backed up.
 617 2011-02-15 03:57:57 <ntosme2> can I have a short list of bitcoin server ips? the client won't run and I'm playing with a Python implementation
 618 2011-02-15 03:58:23 <ntosme2> i.e. a few lines from addr.txt
 619 2011-02-15 03:58:41 <ntosme2> pretty please?
 620 2011-02-15 03:58:42 <genjix> go to the irc channel and run /names
 621 2011-02-15 03:59:03 <ntosme2> hmm,
 622 2011-02-15 03:59:04 <ntosme2> k
 623 2011-02-15 03:59:20 <genjix> i think it's efnet
 624 2011-02-15 04:00:24 <da2ce7> oh dirtyfilthy, small forums (of trusted peers) can remain encrypted, and nobody will know who is in the group.
 625 2011-02-15 04:00:42 <ntosme2> wow...I thought they were IPs
 626 2011-02-15 04:00:46 <doublec> ntosme2: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes
 627 2011-02-15 04:00:49 fladder has joined
 628 2011-02-15 04:01:21 TD has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 629 2011-02-15 04:02:16 <dirtyfilthy> da2ce7: ok, just trying to wrap my head around this, so if you change/remove participants do you change the group key?
 630 2011-02-15 04:02:28 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 631 2011-02-15 04:03:25 <da2ce7> you can add people with out chaning the group public key.  However to remove you need to re-issue the keys. but that is as simple as sending a encripted message to each of the users key folder.
 632 2011-02-15 04:04:00 <da2ce7> the server only knows the current public keys of the forum, and checks posts by that.
 633 2011-02-15 04:04:50 <da2ce7> the server will get an updated (and signed by somebody in the 'admin' group) public key for the users.
 634 2011-02-15 04:06:17 sgornick has joined
 635 2011-02-15 04:06:39 <genjix> anyone know what
 636 2011-02-15 04:06:40 <genjix> warning: refname 'remotes/tcatm/master' is ambiguous.
 637 2011-02-15 04:06:44 <genjix> means with git?
 638 2011-02-15 04:07:14 TD has joined
 639 2011-02-15 04:07:29 <doublec> what git command were you running?
 640 2011-02-15 04:08:14 <genjix> git checkout remotes/tcatm/master
 641 2011-02-15 04:09:04 <genjix> 'git branch -a' showed a branch called remotes/tcatm/master so then i ran 'git branch remotes/tcatm/master' and it appeared in 'git branch'
 642 2011-02-15 04:09:37 <genjix> however the directory appear really ghetto
 643 2011-02-15 04:09:49 <genjix> cashier.pyc  core_interface.pyc  gistfile1.txt  jsonrpc  send.pyc
 644 2011-02-15 04:09:56 <genjix> those are the files in it...
 645 2011-02-15 04:10:56 <ntosme2> I really feel like C++ is way too verbose, or this implementation is just really messy
 646 2011-02-15 04:12:31 <doublec> genjix: the 'git branch remotes/tcatm/master' was an error on your part
 647 2011-02-15 04:12:40 <doublec> it created a branched called 'remotes/tcatm/master'
 648 2011-02-15 04:12:49 <doublec> which has the same name as a remote reference
 649 2011-02-15 04:12:53 <genjix> oh dear
 650 2011-02-15 04:13:00 <doublec> so when you do 'git checkout ...' it doesn't know if you want the branch or the remote
 651 2011-02-15 04:13:12 <doublec> best thing to do is delete that branch
 652 2011-02-15 04:13:20 <doublec> git branch -D remotes/tcatm/master
 653 2011-02-15 04:13:28 <genjix> i cannot
 654 2011-02-15 04:13:30 <doublec> why?
 655 2011-02-15 04:13:53 <genjix> git checkout master
 656 2011-02-15 04:13:53 <genjix> error: Entry 'core_interface.py' would be overwritten by merge. Cannot merge.
 657 2011-02-15 04:14:03 <doublec> git stash
 658 2011-02-15 04:14:04 <genjix> (eventhough the file doesn't exist -_-)
 659 2011-02-15 04:14:08 <doublec> to save your current work
 660 2011-02-15 04:14:12 <doublec> git checkout master
 661 2011-02-15 04:14:20 <doublec> git branch -D remotes/tcatm/master
 662 2011-02-15 04:14:23 <doublec> git stash apply
 663 2011-02-15 04:14:27 <doublec> the latter gets your changes back
 664 2011-02-15 04:14:42 <genjix> ok thanks that works
 665 2011-02-15 04:14:45 <genjix> git branch -a
 666 2011-02-15 04:14:45 <genjix> * master remotes/origin/master remotes/tcatm/master
 667 2011-02-15 04:15:03 <doublec> what does this show: git branch
 668 2011-02-15 04:15:09 <genjix> just master
 669 2011-02-15 04:15:18 <doublec> if you want to checkout remotes/tcatm/master you should do something like:
 670 2011-02-15 04:15:26 <doublec> git checkout -b mynewbranch tcatm/master
 671 2011-02-15 04:15:34 <genjix> thank you! i was looking for that
 672 2011-02-15 04:15:41 <doublec> that will create 'mynewbranch' and checkout the code based on tcatm/master
 673 2011-02-15 04:15:43 <doublec> np
 674 2011-02-15 04:15:52 <genjix> yep :) was asking on #git and searching google
 675 2011-02-15 04:15:55 <genjix> couldn't find it...
 676 2011-02-15 04:16:16 <genjix> perfect.
 677 2011-02-15 04:17:06 <JunK-Y> on my 5970, i see sometime: 16/02/2011 00:08, 29530d71, invalid or stale
 678 2011-02-15 04:17:12 <JunK-Y> is that normal?
 679 2011-02-15 04:17:19 <JunK-Y> its like 1/10 of them
 680 2011-02-15 04:17:48 <doublec> yes, normal
 681 2011-02-15 04:17:55 lfm has joined
 682 2011-02-15 04:18:00 <nanotube> doublec: 1/10th? seems a bit high
 683 2011-02-15 04:18:25 <doublec> it's about what I get - maybe 1/20th
 684 2011-02-15 04:19:00 <nanotube> isn't that msg for when you generate a block, but it turns out someone else already did? shouldn't happen that often...
 685 2011-02-15 04:19:34 <nanotube> or is that for when zeros match, but not actual target?
 686 2011-02-15 04:19:40 <doublec> isn't it for when you generate for an old block?
 687 2011-02-15 04:19:48 <doublec> which can happen in the pool
 688 2011-02-15 04:20:23 <lfm> kinda depends how often you getwork?
 689 2011-02-15 04:21:43 <genjix> i deleted my repo to redo those actions above (so i never forget)
 690 2011-02-15 04:21:45 <genjix> http://pastebin.com/b0xkHJ8r
 691 2011-02-15 04:22:10 <genjix> why doesn't git remote add tcatm gitL://...  have the branch show up at the bottom?
 692 2011-02-15 04:24:00 <doublec> you need to fetch from it
 693 2011-02-15 04:24:04 <doublec> git fetch tcatm
 694 2011-02-15 04:24:32 <doublec> 'remote add' just adds an entry to your config giving it a name
 695 2011-02-15 04:24:40 <doublec> 'fetch' is what actually retrieves the data
 696 2011-02-15 04:24:51 <JunK-Y> doublec: its more like 1/20 now
 697 2011-02-15 04:26:43 <genjix> ok i think i get this now. thanks
 698 2011-02-15 04:26:52 <genjix> there's a difference between remote and local branches.
 699 2011-02-15 04:29:26 <genjix> how can you see all the repos added to git remote add?
 700 2011-02-15 04:30:21 Shfork has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 701 2011-02-15 04:30:22 ntosme2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 702 2011-02-15 04:30:30 <doublec> 'git remote' without arguments
 703 2011-02-15 04:31:20 <genjix> thank you :)
 704 2011-02-15 04:43:35 phantomcircuit has joined
 705 2011-02-15 04:53:02 <hacim> git remote -v gives you useful info
 706 2011-02-15 04:55:01 * Kiba is learning how to prepare a production environment for rails
 707 2011-02-15 04:55:32 <Kiba> and the funky nature of sh versus bash
 708 2011-02-15 04:55:42 <Kiba> no wonder why bash commands doesn't work today
 709 2011-02-15 04:55:59 <dirtyfilthy> what are you rolling? apache and passenger?
 710 2011-02-15 04:56:08 <Kiba> apperantly
 711 2011-02-15 04:56:22 <Kiba> he installed apache first
 712 2011-02-15 04:56:25 <Kiba> the owner
 713 2011-02-15 04:56:38 <Kiba> my client that is
 714 2011-02-15 04:59:18 Dan_ has joined
 715 2011-02-15 05:01:41 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 716 2011-02-15 05:04:10 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, passenger? ew
 717 2011-02-15 05:04:56 <Kiba> phantomcircuit: I was thinking of uninstalling apache and replacing it with something that's easy to set up
 718 2011-02-15 05:05:32 <genjix> < _habnabit> genjix, ha ha bitcoins
 719 2011-02-15 05:05:41 <genjix> < _habnabit> genjix, I think the concept is hilariously stupid
 720 2011-02-15 05:06:01 <Kiba> genjix: don't be discouraged
 721 2011-02-15 05:06:15 <Kiba> that what people do when they're not thinking carefully
 722 2011-02-15 05:06:19 <genjix> i am not :) just insightful
 723 2011-02-15 05:06:49 <genjix> i think satoshi is a genius and that's a bit harsh.
 724 2011-02-15 05:07:21 <Validus> who cares what people thinks anyways
 725 2011-02-15 05:07:26 <Kiba> genuis?
 726 2011-02-15 05:07:29 <Kiba> Validus: who care?
 727 2011-02-15 05:07:38 <Kiba> bitcoin needs to convince people to join in
 728 2011-02-15 05:07:42 <Kiba> otherwise we just die out
 729 2011-02-15 05:07:43 <hacim> passenger isn't that hard to setup
 730 2011-02-15 05:07:52 <hacim> much easier than a lot of things that are out there
 731 2011-02-15 05:07:59 <Kiba> what's the easiest to set up web server for rails?
 732 2011-02-15 05:11:56 gasteve_ has joined
 733 2011-02-15 05:12:22 <necrodearia> http://witcoin.com is updated - Many improvements.  Let me know what you guys think.
 734 2011-02-15 05:12:58 <necrodearia> Also, thanks again to tcatm for the AMAZING design and especially molecular for the background color
 735 2011-02-15 05:13:11 <Kiba> is tcatm a graphic designer?
 736 2011-02-15 05:13:34 <Kiba> views is a bit cuttoff
 737 2011-02-15 05:13:42 <necrodearia> views?
 738 2011-02-15 05:13:46 <Kiba> is it supposed to be grey?
 739 2011-02-15 05:13:50 <Kiba> necrodearia: the word view
 740 2011-02-15 05:13:55 <necrodearia> hmm
 741 2011-02-15 05:13:57 <necrodearia> what browser?
 742 2011-02-15 05:14:32 <Validus> shows up fine over here. using firefox
 743 2011-02-15 05:15:09 <Kiba> chromium
 744 2011-02-15 05:15:10 <Kiba> ah..I just logged in
 745 2011-02-15 05:15:10 <Kiba> it's better now
 746 2011-02-15 05:16:11 <necrodearia> Kiba, ctrl+shift+r
 747 2011-02-15 05:16:11 <necrodearia> refresh your cache
 748 2011-02-15 05:16:52 <genjix> python's Crypto.PublicKey.RSA is dumb!
 749 2011-02-15 05:17:21 <genjix> it's a library for generating rsa keys but there's no method for import/export of keys! lol
 750 2011-02-15 05:17:37 mail2345 has joined
 751 2011-02-15 05:21:29 Dan_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 752 2011-02-15 05:23:21 <genjix> http://weidai.com/bmoney.txt <- the bitcoin manisfesto
 753 2011-02-15 05:24:43 <Kiba> is Satoshi Wei Dai?
 754 2011-02-15 05:25:26 ntosme2 has joined
 755 2011-02-15 05:25:28 gasteve_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 756 2011-02-15 05:25:29 <necrodearia> Oh, and of course thanks to theymos for the help
 757 2011-02-15 05:25:35 <necrodearia> http://witcoin.com/help
 758 2011-02-15 05:25:41 <andrew12> Is Satoshi real?
 759 2011-02-15 05:26:17 <genjix> no
 760 2011-02-15 05:26:34 <genjix> necrodearia: looks nice!
 761 2011-02-15 05:27:08 <necrodearia> genjix, thanks
 762 2011-02-15 05:27:46 gasteve_ has joined
 763 2011-02-15 05:27:47 gasteve_ has quit (Changing host)
 764 2011-02-15 05:27:47 gasteve_ has joined
 765 2011-02-15 05:28:00 <luke-jr> andrew12: Satoshi is a fake persona to protect the real inventor ofc
 766 2011-02-15 05:28:54 <Kiba> that what we want to know!
 767 2011-02-15 05:28:58 <Kiba> who this real inventor guy is
 768 2011-02-15 05:29:38 <Netsniper> Julian Asange
 769 2011-02-15 05:29:45 <doublec> follow the path of early bitcoins in bbe and see who they went too - see if anything pops up
 770 2011-02-15 05:31:07 <andrew12> another theory: satoshi doesnt exist and gavin is the main developer of bitcoin.
 771 2011-02-15 05:31:32 <doublec> one of those two statements is true
 772 2011-02-15 05:31:40 sbc has joined
 773 2011-02-15 05:31:40 sbc has quit (Changing host)
 774 2011-02-15 05:31:40 sbc has joined
 775 2011-02-15 05:32:03 <andrew12> well i'm gonna go try to get some more sleep
 776 2011-02-15 05:32:13 <andrew12> "[
 777 2011-02-15 05:32:15 <andrew12> :p
 778 2011-02-15 05:32:32 <noagendamarket> but gavin is the main developer right now lol
 779 2011-02-15 05:32:40 <doublec> exactly :)
 780 2011-02-15 05:32:59 <andrew12> well that's true
 781 2011-02-15 05:33:10 <andrew12> i suppose
 782 2011-02-15 05:33:16 <noagendamarket> maybe his middle name is satoshi :)-
 783 2011-02-15 05:34:32 <andrew12> Gavin Satoshi Nakamoto Andresen
 784 2011-02-15 05:35:00 <andrew12> Gavin "Satoshi Nakamoto" Andresen
 785 2011-02-15 05:35:36 apenonsfe has joined
 786 2011-02-15 05:37:01 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 787 2011-02-15 05:38:20 gasteve_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
 788 2011-02-15 05:45:27 bitcoiner has joined
 789 2011-02-15 05:49:34 <genjix> nah gavin is too obvious
 790 2011-02-15 05:49:45 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 791 2011-02-15 05:49:46 <genjix> either jgarzik or wei-dai...
 792 2011-02-15 05:50:09 <genjix> or someone lurking around here
 793 2011-02-15 05:50:26 <genjix> must be andrew12 ... that's what you'd say if you were satoshi
 794 2011-02-15 05:51:43 <genjix> anyway got to love satoshi's noble handing over of the reigns and fading away.
 795 2011-02-15 05:51:56 lfm has quit (Quit: bye)
 796 2011-02-15 05:51:56 <genjix> while keeping anon in case he gets attacked
 797 2011-02-15 06:00:40 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 798 2011-02-15 06:03:50 apenonsfe has left ()
 799 2011-02-15 06:12:14 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 800 2011-02-15 06:15:31 <xelister> ;; bc,calc 170000
 801 2011-02-15 06:15:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 170000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 week, 0 days, 14 hours, 27 minutes, and 3 seconds
 802 2011-02-15 06:15:42 <xelister> ;; bc,calc 590000
 803 2011-02-15 06:15:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 590000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 4 hours, 34 minutes, and 14 seconds
 804 2011-02-15 06:15:49 <xelister> ;; bc,calc 300000
 805 2011-02-15 06:15:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 7 hours, 23 minutes, and 20 seconds
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 822 2011-02-15 06:59:38 <necrodearia> Watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XETxAgYXb6w makes me want to start a vocabulary for government language
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 840 2011-02-15 07:42:18 <nevezen> ;;bc,calc 945000
 841 2011-02-15 07:42:19 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 945000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 day, 8 hours, 49 minutes, and 18 seconds
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 846 2011-02-15 08:13:55 <mbarkhau> i have read in the wiki both that adresses are hashes of public keys and that they are actual encoded public keys
 847 2011-02-15 08:14:04 <mbarkhau> which is the case?
 848 2011-02-15 08:14:59 <nanotube> mbarkhau: well, given that a hash is a way to "encode" a piece of info, i guess it's both. ;) lossy encoding :)
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 851 2011-02-15 08:15:21 <nanotube> but strictly speaking, address is a hash of a pubkey. ripemd160(sha256(key)) iirc.
 852 2011-02-15 08:15:49 <mbarkhau> so the actual keys are distributed in the network?
 853 2011-02-15 08:16:33 <nanotube> source pubkeys are included in tx.
 854 2011-02-15 08:17:16 <mbarkhau> so the guy making the block figures it out
 855 2011-02-15 08:17:46 <TD__> transactions include both keys and addresses
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 857 2011-02-15 08:17:56 <TD__> depending on which side of the transaction you look at
 858 2011-02-15 08:18:07 <nanotube> source - keys, dest - addresses :)
 859 2011-02-15 08:18:27 <nanotube> and yes, all the guys receiving tx can verify it.
 860 2011-02-15 08:19:12 <mbarkhau> thx
 861 2011-02-15 08:19:26 <mbarkhau> i guess i'll have to read more
 862 2011-02-15 08:19:30 <mbarkhau> :)
 863 2011-02-15 08:20:07 <nanotube> mbarkhau: try the wiki. :)
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 870 2011-02-15 08:24:26 <jgarzik> Bitcoin Binary Data Protocol, for mining, monitorblocks, etc.
 871 2011-02-15 08:24:26 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3493.0
 872 2011-02-15 08:24:34 <jgarzik> OneFixt, slush: ^^
 873 2011-02-15 08:24:45 <jgarzik> FOSS implementation included
 874 2011-02-15 08:25:44 satamusic_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 875 2011-02-15 08:26:11 <OneFixt> jgarzik: thank you
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 886 2011-02-15 08:47:24 <ntosme2> am I likely to crash clients if I encode a ipv6 address and advertise it on irc?
 887 2011-02-15 08:48:27 <ntosme2> it makes sense to have v6 in there eventually
 888 2011-02-15 08:48:42 <jgarzik> ntosme2: sounds like a good test..  you should try it
 889 2011-02-15 08:49:24 <ntosme2> I was thinking instead of encode(a.b.c.d) use the encode(::ffff:a.b.c.d) format
 890 2011-02-15 08:50:12 <ntosme2> but in base58 of course
 891 2011-02-15 08:50:45 <sipa> internally the bitcoin protocol already uses ipv6 addresses
 892 2011-02-15 08:53:09 <ntosme2> is the irc format the limitation then?
 893 2011-02-15 08:54:01 <jgarzik> ntosme2: that's one limitation, yes, but IRC is only needed for seeding -- ie. not really needed
 894 2011-02-15 08:54:22 * jgarzik is campaigning for a list of DNS names to be built into the client, for seeding as well
 895 2011-02-15 08:54:47 <jgarzik> that would automatically support multiple IPs, and both IPv4 and IPv6
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 898 2011-02-15 08:56:29 <ntosme2> jgarzik: are we going to assume the port is always 8333 in that case?
 899 2011-02-15 08:57:07 <jgarzik> ntosme2: yes.  I'm a fan of SRV records, but they are not as universally supported in DNS servers and ancient winsock APIs
 900 2011-02-15 08:57:10 <ntosme2> b/c the port is in the irc adv
 901 2011-02-15 08:57:35 mtgox has joined
 902 2011-02-15 08:57:52 * jgarzik wonders about TXT
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 905 2011-02-15 08:58:37 <ntosme2> do we really need to support port changing?
 906 2011-02-15 08:59:26 <jgarzik> ntosme2: it would be nice
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 910 2011-02-15 09:28:21 <sgillet> hello everyone, i'm trying to install bitcoin for linux (i'm on ubuntu 10.10 - 32bits).. but I get "Erreur de segmentation" (Segmentation error in french) when executing bitcoin
 911 2011-02-15 09:28:35 <sgillet> is that a known issue?
 912 2011-02-15 09:30:04 <sgillet> (the file that I try to execute is bitcoin-0.3.19/bin/32/bitcoin)
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 915 2011-02-15 09:34:03 <sipa> sgillet: compiled it yourself?
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 918 2011-02-15 09:37:19 <sgillet> no ! didn't find how to compile it myself
 919 2011-02-15 09:37:32 <sgillet> any tut on this ? :)
 920 2011-02-15 09:37:58 <sipa> if you don't need to, don't
 921 2011-02-15 09:38:12 <sipa> you just ran the precompiled binary on the site?
 922 2011-02-15 09:39:56 prax has joined
 923 2011-02-15 09:41:25 <sgillet> yes, i guess that I'll need it since i get a segmentation error
 924 2011-02-15 09:42:02 <sgillet> I downloaded and ran the binary from bitcoin.org
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 927 2011-02-15 09:46:43 <sgillet> and since there's no "configure" file in  bitcoin-0.3.19/src , I can't figure out how to compile it...
 928 2011-02-15 09:48:07 <sipa> you'll need to install the wxwidgets source
 929 2011-02-15 09:48:17 <sipa> edit the makefile.unix file to point to the correct paths
 930 2011-02-15 09:48:24 <sipa> and then make -f makefile.unix bitcoin
 931 2011-02-15 09:48:27 <sipa> ... horror
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 935 2011-02-15 09:56:08 <sgillet> i'll try that then :)
 936 2011-02-15 09:57:34 <dissipate> i recommend the unofficial ubuntu package. worked for me.
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 938 2011-02-15 10:11:21 <ntosme2> 2001:1938:80:1d3::2 == 42540999659147785970654015301766610946 == MGy23v4gHUGAehdFqkcDx
 939 2011-02-15 10:11:37 <ntosme2> normal ipv6, base10, base58
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 942 2011-02-15 10:13:38 <ntosme2> maybe I'll just add DNS support
 943 2011-02-15 10:13:53 <ntosme2> that just looks ridiculous
 944 2011-02-15 10:14:08 <nathan7> :o
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 948 2011-02-15 10:18:18 <nathan7> fahadsadah: oppy?
 949 2011-02-15 10:18:22 <nathan7> Gribble is dead or something
 950 2011-02-15 10:18:23 <nathan7> bbl
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 954 2011-02-15 10:36:33 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
 955 2011-02-15 10:36:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108217 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 646 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34234.87302118
 956 2011-02-15 10:36:40 <lfm> nope
 957 2011-02-15 10:39:31 <sgillet> thank you sipa and dissipate, I just did the following, and it worked:
 958 2011-02-15 10:40:32 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 959 2011-02-15 10:42:47 <sgillet> http://pastebin.com/etnP90nu
 960 2011-02-15 10:45:46 <dissipate> sgillet, nice. do you plan on mining bitcoins at all?
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 966 2011-02-15 10:55:56 <sgillet> dissipate: i don't quite get your meaning of mining, but I think I'll use bitcoins.. perhaps contribute later
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 968 2011-02-15 10:58:21 <lfm> mining == generating
 969 2011-02-15 10:58:26 <sgillet> dissipate: how about you?
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 973 2011-02-15 11:18:31 <hundfred> ´/win 4
 974 2011-02-15 11:18:32 <hundfred> ´/win 45
 975 2011-02-15 11:24:35 <ZenMondo> Is there a way to know how many Bitcoins are in circulation?
 976 2011-02-15 11:24:59 <ntosme2> ;;bc,stats
 977 2011-02-15 11:25:01 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108218 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 645 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34072.73056143
 978 2011-02-15 11:25:12 <ntosme2> should be current blocks * 50
 979 2011-02-15 11:25:42 <ntosme2> hmm...not sure about that
 980 2011-02-15 11:26:06 <ntosme2> 5410900
 981 2011-02-15 11:26:11 <lfm> ;;calc 108218*50
 982 2011-02-15 11:26:12 <gribble> 108,218 * 50 = 5,410,900
 983 2011-02-15 11:26:27 <ntosme2> heh
 984 2011-02-15 11:26:28 <ZenMondo> got it thanks
 985 2011-02-15 11:27:49 <lfm> may be plus 50 actually cuz the genisis block isnt counted
 986 2011-02-15 11:29:37 <welterde>  /b #ccc
 987 2011-02-15 11:29:39 <welterde> bah
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 991 2011-02-15 11:36:23 <UukGoblin> hrm
 992 2011-02-15 11:36:30 <UukGoblin> we need a sensible escrowing service
 993 2011-02-15 11:36:35 <UukGoblin> like paypal
 994 2011-02-15 11:36:47 <lfm> you should do one
 995 2011-02-15 11:36:59 <UukGoblin> I don't have time
 996 2011-02-15 11:37:08 <noagendamarket> we have clearcoin
 997 2011-02-15 11:37:21 <UukGoblin> yeah I saw clearcoin but it really doesn't solve the problem well...
 998 2011-02-15 11:37:43 <UukGoblin> waiting a year after a scam doesn't make it any less scamy
 999 2011-02-15 11:38:06 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1000 2011-02-15 11:39:26 <UukGoblin> what would be really useful is something that'll actually act as a middle-man to solve disputes and actually do /some/ investigation to solve cases
1001 2011-02-15 11:39:35 satamusic has joined
1002 2011-02-15 11:39:51 <UukGoblin> like paypal
1003 2011-02-15 11:40:42 <ZenMondo> Well I just made my first convert to Bitcoin
1004 2011-02-15 11:41:00 <lfm> oh dear
1005 2011-02-15 11:41:34 <ZenMondo> She hates private banking. Is convinced the world wide depression was the banker's fault. So something they can't fuck with she is all for.
1006 2011-02-15 11:42:37 <lfm> well for certain definitions of "banker" she'd be right I guess
1007 2011-02-15 11:43:01 <noagendamarket> ZenMondo does she want any bitcoins ?lol
1008 2011-02-15 11:43:34 <ZenMondo> Well I linked her up with the fawcet and told her about Noodle's second life group and exchange
1009 2011-02-15 11:43:43 <noagendamarket> UukGoblin  paypal doesnt investigate anything
1010 2011-02-15 11:44:10 <ZenMondo> Being in Second Life she is comfortable with virtual money already.
1011 2011-02-15 11:44:30 <ZenMondo> I am gonna work on vendors in Second Life that can take Bitcoin as payment
1012 2011-02-15 11:44:34 <noagendamarket> tell her to join http://witcoin.com asnd send me her profile link
1013 2011-02-15 11:44:56 <ZenMondo> She went offline
1014 2011-02-15 11:45:00 <noagendamarket> ah
1015 2011-02-15 11:45:04 <ZenMondo> But I will get in touch with her
1016 2011-02-15 11:45:16 <ZenMondo> I saw that offer on the market but I am too new to qualify,
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1018 2011-02-15 11:46:05 <noagendamarket> ya there is a reason that is in place :)
1019 2011-02-15 11:46:14 <ZenMondo> and I understand it
1020 2011-02-15 11:46:30 <UukGoblin> ZenMondo, you want to buy bitcoins?
1021 2011-02-15 11:46:32 <ZenMondo> because Stevenbuck is good at making alts.
1022 2011-02-15 11:46:42 <noagendamarket> lol thats one reason
1023 2011-02-15 11:46:50 <noagendamarket> he wont be able too soon
1024 2011-02-15 11:46:57 <ZenMondo> I want to earn bitcoins with labor.  I don't have a lot of cash right now as I missed a week of pay.
1025 2011-02-15 11:47:04 <noagendamarket> not with nefarios new startup
1026 2011-02-15 11:48:16 <noagendamarket> what can you do ?
1027 2011-02-15 11:48:22 <ZenMondo> I have a heavy project I am getting paid in USD with right now so I don't have a lot of cycles for bitcoin work
1028 2011-02-15 11:48:51 <ZenMondo> I am a programmer specializing in systems that connect virtual worlds with databases on the world wide web
1029 2011-02-15 11:48:58 <noagendamarket> I guess programming work ?
1030 2011-02-15 11:49:16 <UukGoblin> mhm, cool
1031 2011-02-15 11:49:20 <noagendamarket> nice
1032 2011-02-15 11:49:21 <UukGoblin> we had this p2p mmorpg idea...
1033 2011-02-15 11:49:41 <noagendamarket> yeah that didnt go anywhere lol
1034 2011-02-15 11:49:48 <UukGoblin> I doubt it's something you'd get paid for well
1035 2011-02-15 11:49:54 <UukGoblin> noagendamarket, I'm not surprised
1036 2011-02-15 11:49:55 <ZenMondo> http://flynnos.org/Networked%20Communication%20of%20Second%20Life%20Objects.pdf  is an example of the kind of stuff I do.
1037 2011-02-15 11:50:06 <UukGoblin> noagendamarket, it's a difficult task for which you won't get any money ;-]
1038 2011-02-15 11:50:51 <noagendamarket> lol thats a thankless task
1039 2011-02-15 11:51:08 <UukGoblin> well not necessarily thankless
1040 2011-02-15 11:51:13 <UukGoblin> people would thank you for it
1041 2011-02-15 11:51:14 <lfm> you might get thanks, just no money
1042 2011-02-15 11:51:30 <noagendamarket> well thats true
1043 2011-02-15 11:51:33 <UukGoblin> you'd probably get about $0.3 in donations
1044 2011-02-15 11:51:49 <noagendamarket> ZenMondo so you write plugins for SL ?
1045 2011-02-15 11:53:43 <ZenMondo> Well not really. I write scripts for objects in Second Life mostly.  If an object does something its a script that is doing it otherwise it just sits there. But now objects can talk to the world wide web and actually be a mini-webserver themselves so I build back-end systems on a server and the communication between the server and the virtual objects and in turn the virtual objects communicating with each other through the s
1046 2011-02-15 11:53:45 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1047 2011-02-15 11:54:54 <UukGoblin> ZenMondo, you were cut off after 'through the s'
1048 2011-02-15 11:55:04 <ZenMondo> "server"
1049 2011-02-15 11:55:23 * UukGoblin nods
1050 2011-02-15 11:55:34 <UukGoblin> next step: scan a human brain and re-create it as an object in SL
1051 2011-02-15 11:55:59 <noagendamarket> so..whats stopping the webserver from being a bitcoin pool mining server ?
1052 2011-02-15 11:56:13 <noagendamarket> players can mine while playing SL
1053 2011-02-15 11:56:14 <noagendamarket> lol
1054 2011-02-15 11:56:20 grondilu has joined
1055 2011-02-15 11:56:22 <ZenMondo> which webserver?
1056 2011-02-15 11:56:31 mtgox has joined
1057 2011-02-15 11:56:32 <grondilu> BITCOIN IS AVAILABLE ON DEBIAN SID !!!
1058 2011-02-15 11:56:43 <grondilu> apt-cache search debian !!!!!
1059 2011-02-15 11:56:46 <UukGoblin> BUY BUY BUY!!!1
1060 2011-02-15 11:56:59 <noagendamarket> you said objects can be mni webservers
1061 2011-02-15 11:57:09 <noagendamarket> *mini
1062 2011-02-15 11:57:25 <ZenMondo> Well what I am thinking of doing is actually making a bitcoin integration into the Second Life viewer as an alternative virtual currency instead of the Linden Dollar
1063 2011-02-15 11:57:46 <UukGoblin> ZenMondo, awesome! but won't LL have problems with it?
1064 2011-02-15 11:57:53 <ZenMondo> Very limited webservers.
1065 2011-02-15 11:58:06 <noagendamarket> it only has to run at difficulty 1
1066 2011-02-15 11:58:08 <noagendamarket> lol
1067 2011-02-15 11:58:31 <UukGoblin> noagendamarket, hrm, are you thinking of using LL's server farm for mining? :-]
1068 2011-02-15 11:58:37 <UukGoblin> yeah... how would that work.. ;-]
1069 2011-02-15 11:58:42 <noagendamarket> ;)
1070 2011-02-15 11:58:48 <UukGoblin> put an object in SL and get it to compute SHA-256 ;-]
1071 2011-02-15 11:58:54 <noagendamarket> thats it
1072 2011-02-15 11:59:06 <noagendamarket> lol
1073 2011-02-15 11:59:07 <UukGoblin> :-]
1074 2011-02-15 11:59:31 <noagendamarket> just stick it on a bitcoin island lol
1075 2011-02-15 11:59:35 <ZenMondo> Well its been a while since I looked at the Third Party Viewer agreement. While you have to have functionality for Linden Dollars and buying on the Lindex I don't think there was anything saying that had to be the ONLY money handler.
1076 2011-02-15 12:00:00 grondilu has quit (Client Quit)
1077 2011-02-15 12:00:22 <UukGoblin> ZenMondo, makes me instantly wonder what will happen to bitcoin-based gambling in-world
1078 2011-02-15 12:00:33 <ZenMondo> while LSL is turing complete a mono compiled script only has 64k of memory. Thats both stack and heap have to fit in that.
1079 2011-02-15 12:00:45 <ZenMondo> Well Gambling is against the TOS
1080 2011-02-15 12:00:54 <UukGoblin> even with non-L$? ;-]
1081 2011-02-15 12:00:57 <noagendamarket> everyone could buy their own bitcoin miner instance with L$
1082 2011-02-15 12:01:01 <noagendamarket> lol
1083 2011-02-15 12:01:08 <ZenMondo> Yes "anything of value" it says.
1084 2011-02-15 12:01:10 <UukGoblin> imho gambling has definition problems. Simply playing SL is kinda gambling.
1085 2011-02-15 12:01:17 * UukGoblin nods
1086 2011-02-15 12:01:28 <UukGoblin> ZenMondo, 64k should be enough for everyo^Wsha-256
1087 2011-02-15 12:02:11 <ZenMondo> well they do define it. I have not looked in a while but its something about games of chance with a random element.
1088 2011-02-15 12:02:16 <Animeking> I know this is a dumb question but how much biotcoins can you make in a month at 41000 khash :\
1089 2011-02-15 12:02:37 <Animeking> I recall there being an application a year back that made a guesstimate on daily.
1090 2011-02-15 12:02:49 <Animeking> err or how many days it would take guesstimate
1091 2011-02-15 12:02:51 <Animeking> or a bot.
1092 2011-02-15 12:03:01 <tcatm> ;;bc,calc 41000
1093 2011-02-15 12:03:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 41000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours, 30 minutes, and 15 seconds
1094 2011-02-15 12:03:15 <Animeking> o.O
1095 2011-02-15 12:03:27 <Animeking> Wow. XD
1096 2011-02-15 12:03:31 <lfm> so 50
1097 2011-02-15 12:04:02 <lfm> on average, of course random variation could be more or less
1098 2011-02-15 12:04:36 <lfm> and the difficulty is gonna change soon
1099 2011-02-15 12:04:42 <UukGoblin> ZenMondo, SL is a game of chance with a random element. But nevermind, I don't want to argue about details right now
1100 2011-02-15 12:04:45 <Animeking> ah
1101 2011-02-15 12:04:58 <lfm> ;;bc,stats
1102 2011-02-15 12:05:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108231 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 632 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34255.62506978
1103 2011-02-15 12:05:35 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 41000 34255.62506978
1104 2011-02-15 12:05:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 41000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 34255.62506978, is 5 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 47 minutes, and 38 seconds
1105 2011-02-15 12:06:24 <Animeking> So, the difficulty is gonna go down :\
1106 2011-02-15 12:06:27 <Animeking> possibly.
1107 2011-02-15 12:06:32 <Animeking> or up o.O
1108 2011-02-15 12:06:35 <lfm> up
1109 2011-02-15 12:06:36 <UukGoblin> up
1110 2011-02-15 12:06:40 <UukGoblin> up and away
1111 2011-02-15 12:06:46 <Animeking> Ah.
1112 2011-02-15 12:16:32 sethsethseth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1113 2011-02-15 12:17:20 sethsethseth has joined
1114 2011-02-15 12:18:30 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1115 2011-02-15 12:19:05 molecular has joined
1116 2011-02-15 12:21:12 slush has joined
1117 2011-02-15 12:21:26 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 4 1
1118 2011-02-15 12:21:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 1 week, 5 days, 10 hours, 15 minutes, and 41 seconds
1119 2011-02-15 12:26:28 Jam_ has joined
1120 2011-02-15 12:26:39 <slush> ;;bc,stats
1121 2011-02-15 12:26:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108235 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 628 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 4 hours, 55 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34308.71165644
1122 2011-02-15 12:27:01 <slush> see bitcoinmonitor.com, it's crazy how much blocks are here in one hour...
1123 2011-02-15 12:29:19 <Jam_> Hi noob here, Love the concept! Just wandering is this currency going to deflate Majorly? If I buy 100 BTC now they will probably be worth 1000000 times that in 2 years if people start using this as a standard.
1124 2011-02-15 12:29:50 <lfm> Jam_: we dont know
1125 2011-02-15 12:30:06 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1126 2011-02-15 12:30:36 <Jam_> I love it , as an Anarcho capitalist this i the first major step to freedom
1127 2011-02-15 12:30:58 <edcba> wtf is an anarcho capitalist
1128 2011-02-15 12:31:16 <Jam_> true free markets with out a state
1129 2011-02-15 12:31:23 <Jam_> no tax
1130 2011-02-15 12:32:31 <mbarkhau> edcba: <--
1131 2011-02-15 12:32:32 <Jam_> as state have a monopaly on money creation or should I say Dept creation. Bitcoin makes them obsolite
1132 2011-02-15 12:32:49 <edcba> i doubt society can work without state
1133 2011-02-15 12:32:52 <Jam_> When I say states I meen Government
1134 2011-02-15 12:33:17 <Jam_> They already work 99%
1135 2011-02-15 12:33:23 <Jam_> without a state
1136 2011-02-15 12:33:29 <lfm> Average interval last 144 blocks: 6.79 min
1137 2011-02-15 12:33:44 <lfm> thats the smallest I ever seen it
1138 2011-02-15 12:34:05 <edcba> if i didn't have to fear police i'd just kill you for being stupid Jam_...
1139 2011-02-15 12:35:00 <slush> lfm: In last hour, as bitcoinmonitor.com show me, 14 blocks were found
1140 2011-02-15 12:35:02 <Jam_> Ok but theen your public record (contract rating would say you have killed someone and no one would do business with you. outcasting you from trade
1141 2011-02-15 12:35:11 <slush> lfm: but it may be just random peak
1142 2011-02-15 12:36:03 <lfm> seems almost like another slashdot effect or something, just nothing we can point our fingers at
1143 2011-02-15 12:36:05 <mbarkhau> Jam_: more immediatly I would assue you can defend yourself?
1144 2011-02-15 12:36:19 <edcba> Jam_: ok it's assuming full information ?
1145 2011-02-15 12:36:29 <Jam_> just like credit ratings stop you from ripping off cridetors now. contract rating agencys would stop you from fucking up contracts
1146 2011-02-15 12:36:43 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1147 2011-02-15 12:36:56 <noagendamarket> some people dont care about contracts
1148 2011-02-15 12:37:03 <noagendamarket> politicians for one ....
1149 2011-02-15 12:37:11 <lfm> jeez Id rather trust banks than credit rating angencies
1150 2011-02-15 12:37:13 <Jam_> well then they cant trade in society
1151 2011-02-15 12:37:23 <edcba> ppl giving those marks won't really care indeed :)
1152 2011-02-15 12:37:26 <noagendamarket> they ignore the constitution all the time lol
1153 2011-02-15 12:37:51 satamusic has joined
1154 2011-02-15 12:37:58 <noagendamarket> they will trade ut will just cost more
1155 2011-02-15 12:38:13 <noagendamarket> someone will always take the risk if the return is right
1156 2011-02-15 12:38:23 <noagendamarket> look at the drug trade
1157 2011-02-15 12:39:09 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1158 2011-02-15 12:39:32 <Jam_> Check out the ebook or Audio book Practicle anarchy It will answer some of your questions. http://freedomainradio.com/FreeBooks/PracticalAnarchy.aspx
1159 2011-02-15 12:39:36 <Animeking> wow
1160 2011-02-15 12:39:51 <Jam_> All you need are systems like BitCoin
1161 2011-02-15 12:40:00 <Jam_> No one person is in control
1162 2011-02-15 12:40:16 <Jam_> Its a stunning exsample of Anarchy
1163 2011-02-15 12:40:45 <Netsniper> Jam_: i take it you're a fan of Stefan Molyneux
1164 2011-02-15 12:41:04 <Jam_> Yeah Hes pretty good.
1165 2011-02-15 12:41:22 <Jam_> But also like Murray Rothbard and the like
1166 2011-02-15 12:41:24 <lfm> jam_ isnt it printed?
1167 2011-02-15 12:41:55 <Jam_> yeah on LULU http://www.lulu.com/content/2935951
1168 2011-02-15 12:43:39 <Netsniper> http://www.simpleliberty.org/tootoa/index.htm
1169 2011-02-15 12:44:56 <noagendamarket> http://freetalklive.com
1170 2011-02-15 12:45:12 <noagendamarket> (since everyone is sharing links ) lol
1171 2011-02-15 12:45:31 <mbarkhau> mises regression theorem application: market value of bitcoin starts with people realizing they're so freakin awesome!
1172 2011-02-15 12:45:35 <Jam_> Thanks Netsniper!
1173 2011-02-15 12:45:41 <Netsniper> np
1174 2011-02-15 12:46:08 <Netsniper> linky linky!
1175 2011-02-15 12:46:14 <Jam_> Hay Im waiting on my first coin from Bitcoin Faucet  but it hasn't come through it's been half hour. have I done somthing wrong. can some one send me something?
1176 2011-02-15 12:46:17 <MacRohard> mr. coats
1177 2011-02-15 12:46:27 <andrew12> ahoy
1178 2011-02-15 12:46:30 <Netsniper> MacRohard: howdy
1179 2011-02-15 12:46:41 <Netsniper> mr McKay
1180 2011-02-15 12:46:44 <MacRohard> Netsniper, how goes?
1181 2011-02-15 12:46:48 <Netsniper> not bad
1182 2011-02-15 12:47:21 <MacRohard> Netsniper, cool.. did you move somewhere?
1183 2011-02-15 12:47:36 <Netsniper> Not yet, house is on the market though
1184 2011-02-15 12:47:50 <Netsniper> and what a great market it is right now :D
1185 2011-02-15 12:47:57 <MacRohard> hehe
1186 2011-02-15 12:47:58 <MacRohard> yea
1187 2011-02-15 12:48:00 <Jam_> :)
1188 2011-02-15 12:48:07 <MacRohard> my mom is selling her house to my sister i think
1189 2011-02-15 12:48:14 <Jam_> should sell it in Bitcoins :)
1190 2011-02-15 12:48:57 <Animeking> Wow, wow....if I invested in bitcoins oh God... *Dies* why didn't I do that a year ago D: no offense, just how much they're worth now is wow. XD
1191 2011-02-15 12:49:16 <Jam_> how many connections are normal? I'm getting 8
1192 2011-02-15 12:49:28 <sipa> 8 is the amount the client tries to reach
1193 2011-02-15 12:49:41 <sipa> so without incoming connections, that's good :)
1194 2011-02-15 12:49:51 <Jam_> thanks
1195 2011-02-15 12:50:10 <Jam_> how do I know I'm getting incoming ?
1196 2011-02-15 12:50:14 <Jam_> if
1197 2011-02-15 12:50:20 <andrew12> 8 is the limit for outgoing connections. if you forward port 8333 you'll get at least 20
1198 2011-02-15 12:50:26 <lfm>  do you have a NAT router?
1199 2011-02-15 12:50:56 <Jam_> its a DSL-G604T modem router
1200 2011-02-15 12:51:05 <andrew12> and you might need to restart the client after forwarding, at least, it tells all the other nodes that are looking for connections to connect to you
1201 2011-02-15 12:51:18 <Jam_> Oh ok
1202 2011-02-15 12:51:32 <Jam_> Yeah because I thought I was fowarding the ports
1203 2011-02-15 12:51:48 <andrew12> bitcoin needs upnp :P
1204 2011-02-15 12:51:54 <lfm> it can take a long time to get more than 8
1205 2011-02-15 12:52:37 <lfm> you dont need incoming connect
1206 2011-02-15 12:52:43 <andrew12> but it helps
1207 2011-02-15 12:52:48 <lfm> not really
1208 2011-02-15 12:53:05 gasteve_ has joined
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1210 2011-02-15 12:53:05 gasteve_ has joined
1211 2011-02-15 12:53:09 <andrew12> well if you're generating or running a pool you want a lot of connections
1212 2011-02-15 12:53:20 <lfm> 8 is lots
1213 2011-02-15 12:53:22 <andrew12> so you've got the right work
1214 2011-02-15 12:54:10 <Jam_>  hay I went to the Bitcoin Faucet put my Bitcoin Address in but the coin hasn't come through yet. do I have to do somthing else?
1215 2011-02-15 12:54:35 <Jam_> @lfm thanks
1216 2011-02-15 12:55:29 <lfm> the faucet should work quickly if its gonna at all
1217 2011-02-15 12:56:29 <Jam_> Oh it just came through then!  :)
1218 2011-02-15 12:56:48 <Jam_> Yay! .05 I'm rich!
1219 2011-02-15 12:56:49 <Jam_> LOL
1220 2011-02-15 12:56:56 <afed> don't spend it all in one joint
1221 2011-02-15 12:57:00 <lfm> wtg
1222 2011-02-15 13:10:27 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1223 2011-02-15 13:10:29  has joined
1224 2011-02-15 13:16:29  is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.240.204.108|Netsniper
1225 2011-02-15 13:16:51 <Jam_> Hay I want to buy some bitcoin. I'm over at http://bitcoinmorpheus.tumblr.com/how_to_buy_bitcoin_with_paypal but I dont understand his fees
1226 2011-02-15 13:17:17 <Jam_> $1 over spot! so I'm baying 2USD for 1 BTC?
1227 2011-02-15 13:17:29 <Jam_> that doesn't sound right
1228 2011-02-15 13:17:58 <noagendamarket> no
1229 2011-02-15 13:18:11 <noagendamarket> his commission is a minimum of $1
1230 2011-02-15 13:18:21 <noagendamarket> on the total sale
1231 2011-02-15 13:19:31 <lfm> Jam_: so buy 100 btc for 101$
1232 2011-02-15 13:19:44 Diablo-D3 has joined
1233 2011-02-15 13:19:50 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
1234 2011-02-15 13:19:51 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.085,"low":1.0356,"vol":9725,"buy":1.04,"sell":1.05,"last":1.0356}}
1235 2011-02-15 13:19:51 <Jam_> Oh I see.
1236 2011-02-15 13:20:15 <lfm> except spot is $104
1237 2011-02-15 13:20:20 <lfm> 1.04
1238 2011-02-15 13:20:30 <Jam_> and 200 btc would be 201?
1239 2011-02-15 13:20:45 <Jam_> pretending its 1 -1
1240 2011-02-15 13:20:50 <lfm> $209 maybe
1241 2011-02-15 13:20:51 <Jam_> 1 to 1
1242 2011-02-15 13:20:53 HarryS has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1243 2011-02-15 13:21:58 <Jam_> Thanks yall I'm off to stack some btc as well as some physicle silver fuck the USD its inflating to much :)
1244 2011-02-15 13:22:17 noot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1245 2011-02-15 13:24:48 <Jam_> Oh just one last question (sorry total noob) how do I make sure I dont loose my BTC? there was no log in ? what do I back up? I'm on a mac, do I just back up the bitcoin applications folder every so often?
1246 2011-02-15 13:25:26 <lfm> backup wallet.dat
1247 2011-02-15 13:26:02 <lfm> actuallt 1. stop bitcoin, 2. backup wallet.dat; 3. restart biycoin
1248 2011-02-15 13:26:57 Kiba has joined
1249 2011-02-15 13:27:21 larsig has joined
1250 2011-02-15 13:27:23 <lfm> and dont let anyone else get to your wallet.dat file either
1251 2011-02-15 13:28:07 <Jam_> @lfm thanks for the advice :) but where do I find wallet.dat on OS x
1252 2011-02-15 13:28:49 <lfm> in your configdir, not sure where osx stuffs it maybe like unix it ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
1253 2011-02-15 13:29:11 <sipa> find / -type f -a -name wallet.dat
1254 2011-02-15 13:29:12 <sipa> :p
1255 2011-02-15 13:30:31 <Jam_> looking now thanks guys
1256 2011-02-15 13:31:24 <mbarkhau> it would be nice if wallet.dat was always valid
1257 2011-02-15 13:31:35 <sipa> how do you mean?
1258 2011-02-15 13:31:41 <Kiba> hey bitcoiners
1259 2011-02-15 13:31:46 <lfm> mbarkhau: then it could never be updated
1260 2011-02-15 13:31:54 <mbarkhau> make a new one rather than modify
1261 2011-02-15 13:32:05 <mbarkhau> and then atomic swap
1262 2011-02-15 13:32:15 <mbarkhau> well as atomic as the filesystem can do
1263 2011-02-15 13:32:15 <lfm> mbarkhau: it can get rather large
1264 2011-02-15 13:33:02 <mbarkhau> lfm: you know couchdb?
1265 2011-02-15 13:33:19 <UukGoblin> or mongo
1266 2011-02-15 13:33:20 <UukGoblin> it webscales
1267 2011-02-15 13:33:21 <lfm> 235 MB?
1268 2011-02-15 13:33:46 <mbarkhau> no because it stays consistent while doing updates on large files
1269 2011-02-15 13:33:46 TheAncientGoat has joined
1270 2011-02-15 13:34:14 <dissipate> \et, nice. do you plan on mining bitcoins at all?
1271 2011-02-15 13:34:14 <UukGoblin> wallet isn't large
1272 2011-02-15 13:34:16 <lfm> oh bitcoin just uses berkley db for portability
1273 2011-02-15 13:34:22 <Jam_> ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/
1274 2011-02-15 13:34:23 sabalaba has joined
1275 2011-02-15 13:34:26 <sipa> wallet.dat is not a db file
1276 2011-02-15 13:34:27 <Jam_> found it :)
1277 2011-02-15 13:34:40 <Jam_> its here ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/
1278 2011-02-15 13:34:45 <mbarkhau> i could have said git or mercurial just as well
1279 2011-02-15 13:35:13 <lfm> UukGoblin: maybe yours isnt
1280 2011-02-15 13:35:22 <mbarkhau> rather than modify, you append a diff and commit the change
1281 2011-02-15 13:35:39 <Jam_> So if its not encripted then if someone steals my computer then they can steal my coins I guess
1282 2011-02-15 13:35:42 <lfm> sipa you sure?
1283 2011-02-15 13:35:58 <lfm> Jam_: ya
1284 2011-02-15 13:36:26 <sipa> lfm: no, i'm wrong :)
1285 2011-02-15 13:36:50 <Jam_> Hmmm It would be good to have a username / password for the bitcoin client and that is used to encript the wallet
1286 2011-02-15 13:36:55 <UukGoblin> wallet.dat: Berkeley DB (Btree, version 9, native byte-order)
1287 2011-02-15 13:39:29 <UukGoblin> blk0001.dat isn't db
1288 2011-02-15 13:39:42 <dissipate> /////////////////
1289 2011-02-15 13:39:55 <lfm> but blkindex is index to blk0001
1290 2011-02-15 13:39:59 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1291 2011-02-15 13:40:06 <Jam_> So I'f I put the wallet.dat file on a usb key, can I go to a new computer, intall a new bitcoin client insert my backed up wallet.dat and all my cash would be there?
1292 2011-02-15 13:40:10 <UukGoblin> yup
1293 2011-02-15 13:40:14 <sipa> yes
1294 2011-02-15 13:40:23 noot has joined
1295 2011-02-15 13:40:25 <sipa> but don't use the same wallet.dat on different machines at once
1296 2011-02-15 13:40:39 <sipa> they'll diverge and stop seeing eachothers transactions after some time
1297 2011-02-15 13:41:13 <Jam_> Ok so shut down one before opening up another.
1298 2011-02-15 13:41:19 <Jam_> thanks heaps guys!
1299 2011-02-15 13:41:24 gasteve_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1300 2011-02-15 13:44:03 <Jam_> What would I do if my computer got stolen? I figure open a new bitcoin client, install my wallet then transfer all cash to a new bitcoin account?
1301 2011-02-15 13:44:30 <Keefe> yep
1302 2011-02-15 13:44:38 <Jam_> Ok.
1303 2011-02-15 13:45:01 <Keefe> well, just make sure you aren't transfering it all to an address in your wallet
1304 2011-02-15 13:45:18 <Jam_> no
1305 2011-02-15 13:45:53 <Keefe> the wallet has a pool of extra addresses to be used as needed. i'll let someone else explain the reason for that
1306 2011-02-15 13:46:15 <Jam_> thanks
1307 2011-02-15 13:46:17 <Jam_> :)
1308 2011-02-15 13:46:45 <Keefe> the quickest temp solution may be to send it all to an ewallet like mybitcoin
1309 2011-02-15 13:47:00 <lfm> yup
1310 2011-02-15 13:47:01 <dissipate> \\
1311 2011-02-15 13:47:33 <Keefe> then wipe the old wallet from all backups and start fresh, pulling the btc back from mybitcoin
1312 2011-02-15 13:48:40 <lfm> Keefe: keep the old wallet in case any more incoming txn outstanding
1313 2011-02-15 13:48:48 <Keefe> mm, right
1314 2011-02-15 13:49:23 <Keefe> as long as you don't leave any btc in it and avoid sending any to one of its addresses
1315 2011-02-15 13:49:33 <lfm> but other than that ya, dont use the old wallet for anything new
1316 2011-02-15 13:50:14 <Keefe> of course if the theif is knowledgable about bitcoin, you're money will simply be gone faster than you can do anything about it
1317 2011-02-15 13:50:28 <Jam_> yeah
1318 2011-02-15 13:51:10 <Jam_> is the comunity thinking of better ways of dealing with this? Why isn't thier a username / password on the client?
1319 2011-02-15 13:51:24 <Jam_> sorry about my spelling
1320 2011-02-15 13:51:35 <Jam_> dyslexsia sucks ass
1321 2011-02-15 13:51:46 <Jam_> :)
1322 2011-02-15 13:52:05 <lfm> Jam_:  use a password on you OS login and make it private files
1323 2011-02-15 13:52:16 <Keefe> for large amounts to be saved securely, i'd make a wallet on an offline computer and write down the address(es), then send to those addresses from your main computer(s) as desired
1324 2011-02-15 13:52:28 <sipa> Jam_: it's a planned feature
1325 2011-02-15 13:52:39 <UukGoblin> I agree that the wallet should be encrypted
1326 2011-02-15 13:52:51 satamusic has joined
1327 2011-02-15 13:52:54 <Keefe> Jam_: how about putting the wallet in a truecrypt container?
1328 2011-02-15 13:52:56 <lfm> or use an encrypted thum drive for yourt configdir
1329 2011-02-15 13:53:16 <UukGoblin> yeah as a temp solution
1330 2011-02-15 13:53:18 <Keefe> might need to make a link from the location bitcoin expects to see the wallet
1331 2011-02-15 13:53:22 <UukGoblin> but it's kinda user unfriendly
1332 2011-02-15 13:53:41 <lfm> bitcoin has a -configdir command line arg
1333 2011-02-15 13:53:43 <Jam_> @lfm @keefe thats a good idea :)
1334 2011-02-15 13:53:46 <Keefe> ah nice
1335 2011-02-15 13:54:49 <Jam_> thanks yall
1336 2011-02-15 13:54:56 <Keefe> i think the bitcoin project leans toward providing the minimum core features and letting users setup other tools to enhance security for example
1337 2011-02-15 13:55:03 xelister has joined
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1339 2011-02-15 13:55:04 xelister has joined
1340 2011-02-15 13:55:25 <Keefe> keeps the bitcoin project focused on the most important stuff while it's still young
1341 2011-02-15 13:55:42 * UukGoblin nods
1342 2011-02-15 13:55:47 <UukGoblin> it's getting older and older though
1343 2011-02-15 13:56:01 <Keefe> of course anyone is welcome to spin off a better implementation
1344 2011-02-15 13:56:03 <UukGoblin> we're over halfway through before a block rewards in 25 btc
1345 2011-02-15 13:56:23 <Keefe> adding stuff like wallet encryption
1346 2011-02-15 13:56:32 <Jam_> @keefe, yeah and I'm sure its all organicly growing, users like me who are not coders but love the concept have to beable to have an easy to use simple and secure inteface or it will never hit main stream
1347 2011-02-15 13:56:38 <Keefe> hopefully if someone does fork, they keep up with core updates also
1348 2011-02-15 13:57:06 <UukGoblin> Keefe, they're welcome to spin off the /client/, but not really the protocol
1349 2011-02-15 13:57:13 <Keefe> that's what i mean
1350 2011-02-15 13:57:31 <UukGoblin> someone started re-writing it in python
1351 2011-02-15 13:58:09 <UukGoblin> I'm not sure what they ended up with
1352 2011-02-15 13:58:18 <Jam_> Keep up the great work guys ! I'm off to bed
1353 2011-02-15 13:58:21 <Keefe> they'd need to watch any changes/fixes in the mainline core code and keep their python impl in line
1354 2011-02-15 13:58:31 Jam_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1355 2011-02-15 13:58:36 <UukGoblin> Keefe, not really...
1356 2011-02-15 13:59:17 <Keefe> guess it depends on whether those fixes are just impl fixes
1357 2011-02-15 13:59:23 <UukGoblin> if they just make the correct client straight away, it's the mainline that'll have to catch up ;-]
1358 2011-02-15 13:59:58 <Keefe> i'm thinking if a vuln was found in the mainline impl
1359 2011-02-15 14:00:16 <Keefe> may not affect a python impl
1360 2011-02-15 14:00:23 <UukGoblin> you're probably thinking of a vuln affecting the protocol
1361 2011-02-15 14:00:46 <Keefe> i'm thinking something like a buffer exploit
1362 2011-02-15 14:01:01 <UukGoblin> yeah that likely wouldn't affect the python client
1363 2011-02-15 14:01:06 <Keefe> that wouldn't be a protocol vuln as much as an impl vuln
1364 2011-02-15 14:01:17 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1365 2011-02-15 14:01:18 <UukGoblin> so there would be nothing to catch up with
1366 2011-02-15 14:01:54 <Keefe> yep. but someone maintaining a python impl should still keep an eye on bugfixes just in case
1367 2011-02-15 14:02:03 <UukGoblin> sure
1368 2011-02-15 14:02:10 <UukGoblin> especially for protocol fixes
1369 2011-02-15 14:02:26 <Keefe> have we had any of those in say the last yr?
1370 2011-02-15 14:02:35 <UukGoblin> I believe not
1371 2011-02-15 14:02:43 <UukGoblin> I'm still using 0.3.10 and it works fine ;-]
1372 2011-02-15 14:03:09 <Keefe> hopefully satoshi designed the protocol very solid
1373 2011-02-15 14:03:13 <UukGoblin> and the 0.3.9->0.3.10 bug was an implementation one afaik
1374 2011-02-15 14:03:19 <lfm> the 0.3.10 security fix was last oct I think
1375 2011-02-15 14:04:02 <UukGoblin> I wonder what's happening to the 0.3.9 blockchain these days ;-]
1376 2011-02-15 14:04:03 <Keefe> was that the one about a signed int wrapping when added or something?
1377 2011-02-15 14:04:11 <UukGoblin> yeah
1378 2011-02-15 14:04:35 <Keefe> that would be a impl-only bug, right?
1379 2011-02-15 14:04:45 <UukGoblin> yup
1380 2011-02-15 14:05:15 <lfm> but it could have propagated into other implementations if there had been any at the time
1381 2011-02-15 14:05:20 <UukGoblin> if there existed a python client back then, and it did the correct checks, it probably wouldn't have accepted the bad block and carried on
1382 2011-02-15 14:05:53 <UukGoblin> it's of course also possible that someone would just copy&paste some code and indeed propagate the bug across implementations
1383 2011-02-15 14:06:07 <UukGoblin> this did happen in history of other projects afaik
1384 2011-02-15 14:06:25 <lfm> that would be weird, the bad clients would be in the majority
1385 2011-02-15 14:09:38 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1386 2011-02-15 14:21:47 HarryS has joined
1387 2011-02-15 14:23:33 devon_hillard has joined
1388 2011-02-15 14:23:45 satamusic has joined
1389 2011-02-15 14:24:04 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, Exception in thread "DiabloMiner Executor (Cypress (#1)/0)" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.lwjgl.opencl.CLKernel.setArg(ILorg/lwjgl/opencl/CLObject;)Lorg/lwjgl/opencl/CLKernel;
1390 2011-02-15 14:24:11 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, at com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner$DeviceState$ExecutionState.run(DiabloMiner.java:532)
1391 2011-02-15 14:24:44 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, happens for all my 6 cypress cores, then starts 'waiting' and reports 0/0 khash
1392 2011-02-15 14:25:16 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, (your latest miner from git)
1393 2011-02-15 14:25:22 satamusic has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1394 2011-02-15 14:26:14 satamusic has joined
1395 2011-02-15 14:35:08 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1396 2011-02-15 14:37:32 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: someone else was bitching about that
1397 2011-02-15 14:37:37 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: cant fix because its a driver bug
1398 2011-02-15 14:39:08 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, can /I/ fix it in any way? i.e. by doing somethign to my driver?
1399 2011-02-15 14:40:12 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure
1400 2011-02-15 14:40:17 <Diablo-D3> this is on windows, right?
1401 2011-02-15 14:41:04 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1402 2011-02-15 14:41:08 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, hell no
1403 2011-02-15 14:41:16 <Diablo-D3> Huh.
1404 2011-02-15 14:41:22 <Diablo-D3> what driver and sdk?
1405 2011-02-15 14:42:07 <UukGoblin> it's ubuntu 10.04, your miner commit a6a5b27b88f4c73f312303fc65e41870b39a308d works fine in the setup , sdk 2.1
1406 2011-02-15 14:42:17 <UukGoblin> how do I check what driver it is again..?
1407 2011-02-15 14:42:33 <Diablo-D3> apt-cache show fglrx-driver | grep Ver
1408 2011-02-15 14:42:43 <Diablo-D3> assuming ubuntu didnt rename fglrx like the bunch of fags they are
1409 2011-02-15 14:43:08 xelister has joined
1410 2011-02-15 14:43:08 xelister has quit (Changing host)
1411 2011-02-15 14:43:08 xelister has joined
1412 2011-02-15 14:43:41 <UukGoblin> I believe I have 10.10
1413 2011-02-15 14:43:50 <UukGoblin> because a file named /root/ati-driver-installer-10-10-x86.x86_64.run exists
1414 2011-02-15 14:44:10 <UukGoblin> I didn't install the driver from apt I don't think
1415 2011-02-15 14:44:29 <xelister> UukGoblin: aah
1416 2011-02-15 14:44:33 <UukGoblin> again, an old version of your miner with a 0.3.14 bitcoind works fine
1417 2011-02-15 14:44:36 <xelister> fucking with Ati drivers versions maze
1418 2011-02-15 14:44:38 <xelister> the fun never stops :)
1419 2011-02-15 14:44:40 <Diablo-D3> I wish people wouldnt do that.
1420 2011-02-15 14:44:44 <Diablo-D3> do NOT use ati's installer
1421 2011-02-15 14:44:47 <Diablo-D3> it will fuck your shit up.
1422 2011-02-15 14:45:08 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, well I fucked with it back in november
1423 2011-02-15 14:45:15 <UukGoblin> don't feel like reinstalling the whole shit
1424 2011-02-15 14:45:16 <Diablo-D3> Ive been telling people this for years.
1425 2011-02-15 14:45:23 <xelister> UukGoblin: ati is shit
1426 2011-02-15 14:45:25 <UukGoblin> especially that older version of your miner works
1427 2011-02-15 14:45:27 <Diablo-D3> _always_ use distro provided packages fo rhsit like this
1428 2011-02-15 14:45:30 <xelister> everyone on the channel knows ati is shit
1429 2011-02-15 14:45:38 <UukGoblin> afaik there weren't any working distro provided packages...
1430 2011-02-15 14:45:45 <xelister> we should really group petition Amd to get the Ati slackers in shape
1431 2011-02-15 14:46:17 <Diablo-D3> ubuntu packages fglrx.
1432 2011-02-15 14:46:34 <xelister> I removedd ubuntu's fglrx and installed from amd.com - works ok
1433 2011-02-15 14:46:41 lfm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1434 2011-02-15 14:47:04 <sipa> you can ask that ati installer to generate .deb's for you
1435 2011-02-15 14:47:08 <sipa> those seem to work for me
1436 2011-02-15 14:47:11 lfm has joined
1437 2011-02-15 14:47:21 <Diablo-D3> sipa: dont use those either
1438 2011-02-15 14:47:26 <Diablo-D3> they arent compatible with debians or ubuntus
1439 2011-02-15 14:47:39 <Diablo-D3> they just blindly install shit and dont use the alternatives system
1440 2011-02-15 14:47:55 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: erm
1441 2011-02-15 14:48:01 <Diablo-D3> that commit, how old is it?
1442 2011-02-15 14:48:14 <UukGoblin> sipa, they didn't for me, don't remember why
1443 2011-02-15 14:48:48 <Diablo-D3> blah
1444 2011-02-15 14:48:52 <Diablo-D3> thats back in novemeber
1445 2011-02-15 14:48:56 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, a6a5b2 is from nov 26
1446 2011-02-15 14:49:18 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: pull HEAD~1
1447 2011-02-15 14:49:24 <UukGoblin> yeah november is last time I fucked with it
1448 2011-02-15 14:50:19 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, that's one commit older than head, right?
1449 2011-02-15 14:50:24 <Diablo-D3> yes
1450 2011-02-15 14:50:47 <Diablo-D3> you can do shit like git reset --hard HEAD~1
1451 2011-02-15 14:50:51 <Diablo-D3> and git knows what to do
1452 2011-02-15 14:51:54 <UukGoblin> yup this one looks better
1453 2011-02-15 14:52:09 <Diablo-D3> the only change was to update to lwjgl 2.7.1
1454 2011-02-15 14:52:20 sabalaba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1455 2011-02-15 14:52:38 <UukGoblin> hrm.
1456 2011-02-15 14:52:54 <UukGoblin> what are the counters now? current/total?
1457 2011-02-15 14:53:02 <Diablo-D3> 15 second, forever
1458 2011-02-15 14:54:24 <UukGoblin> they vary quite a bit... older version started ~1.8Ghash and slowly went down to 1.55. This one started ~1.1 and is now at 1.45 and seems to be going up still
1459 2011-02-15 14:54:33 <UukGoblin> but the variation... is insane ;-)
1460 2011-02-15 14:54:42 * UukGoblin waits for the cards to warm up again
1461 2011-02-15 14:54:47 <Diablo-D3> 15 second is supposed to tell you exactly what you're doing now
1462 2011-02-15 14:54:52 <Diablo-D3> its supposed to vary
1463 2011-02-15 14:54:54 <UukGoblin> yup
1464 2011-02-15 14:55:00 <UukGoblin> it's cool
1465 2011-02-15 14:55:05 <Diablo-D3> I bet if you move your mouse fast enough it'll go down
1466 2011-02-15 14:55:12 <UukGoblin> and I like the new logging look
1467 2011-02-15 14:55:42 <UukGoblin> I no longer need my patch to display the date along with the time of the found block :-]
1468 2011-02-15 14:55:53 <Diablo-D3> heh I made that change awhile ago
1469 2011-02-15 14:56:11 <UukGoblin> yup, the 'forever' counter went up to 1.54 Ghash already
1470 2011-02-15 14:56:35 <Diablo-D3> it takes up to 15 minutes for the forever counter to completely settle
1471 2011-02-15 14:56:49 <UukGoblin> I'm still surprised at how much it varies... it doesn't even have a mouse nor keyboard attached
1472 2011-02-15 14:57:10 <Diablo-D3> yeah, it really shows the effect of random shit like network activity and shit
1473 2011-02-15 14:57:43 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: theres one small problem though
1474 2011-02-15 14:57:43 <UukGoblin> hrm, so I'm guessing newer lwjgl requires shit from some newer driver/sdk?
1475 2011-02-15 14:57:53 <Diablo-D3> I cant reproduce the bug
1476 2011-02-15 14:57:58 <Diablo-D3> Im using 2.7.1 fine here
1477 2011-02-15 14:58:27 <Diablo-D3> and JNI only populates C wrappers when Java uses them
1478 2011-02-15 14:58:37 <Diablo-D3> and what I use obviously hasnt changed
1479 2011-02-15 14:58:58 <Diablo-D3> and the part that actually controls this, SDK 2.1, obviously hasnt changed
1480 2011-02-15 14:59:28 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I suspect your driver might actually be broken
1481 2011-02-15 14:59:38 <Diablo-D3> like, ubuntu overwrote your driver if you installed ubuntu's
1482 2011-02-15 15:01:41 <UukGoblin> hrm
1483 2011-02-15 15:01:56 <UukGoblin> or lwjgl is incompatible with the driver I have
1484 2011-02-15 15:02:12 <Diablo-D3> which is impossible
1485 2011-02-15 15:02:22 <UukGoblin> I do see that the only change you made was to up the lwjgl version
1486 2011-02-15 15:02:29 <Diablo-D3> since the opencl library is provided by SDK 2.1
1487 2011-02-15 15:02:55 <Diablo-D3> its not provided by the driver
1488 2011-02-15 15:03:08 <Diablo-D3> aaaaand
1489 2011-02-15 15:03:17 <Diablo-D3> the function in question would break _every single opencl app ever_
1490 2011-02-15 15:03:40 lfm has quit (Quit: later)
1491 2011-02-15 15:03:54 <UukGoblin> so how may my driver be broken? how do I even tell which .so is it using?
1492 2011-02-15 15:06:38 <UukGoblin> hmml ooks like java consumes slightly more cpu now... 4-7% looking at top, compared to 0-1% earlier
1493 2011-02-15 15:07:11 <UukGoblin> but it may be my imagination, top sucks for that shit anyway
1494 2011-02-15 15:10:42 <xelister> UukGoblin: ha you also written log date/time of found block patch? woot =)
1495 2011-02-15 15:12:47 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I tried to check with 2.7 but mvn failed with Unable to download the artifact from any repository
1496 2011-02-15 15:13:44 wizzard0 has left ()
1497 2011-02-15 15:15:25 <UukGoblin> xelister, yeah, was simple enough for me not to bother Diablo-D3 about it ;-]
1498 2011-02-15 15:18:54 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1499 2011-02-15 15:20:48 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1500 2011-02-15 15:25:22 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, the 15sec variation is much lower after the temperature stabilizes
1501 2011-02-15 15:25:51 <UukGoblin> about +/- 0.05 Ghash instead of 0.5 Ghash
1502 2011-02-15 15:26:11 slush has joined
1503 2011-02-15 15:28:32 <edcba> i have a new idea !!!
1504 2011-02-15 15:29:01 <edcba> what if you'd limit address creation with block chain
1505 2011-02-15 15:29:33 <UukGoblin> what?
1506 2011-02-15 15:29:53 <UukGoblin> why would you want to limit address creation?
1507 2011-02-15 15:30:00 <edcba> to handle trust
1508 2011-02-15 15:30:07 <UukGoblin> what trust?
1509 2011-02-15 15:30:14 <edcba> identities if you prefer
1510 2011-02-15 15:30:50 <UukGoblin> why? it's not the scope of bitcoin at all...
1511 2011-02-15 15:31:07 <UukGoblin> you specifically /don't/ want to handle identities inside bitcoin to provide anonymity...
1512 2011-02-15 15:31:40 <UukGoblin> number of addresses in existence doesn't make the slightest difference to the size of the blockchain
1513 2011-02-15 15:31:53 <UukGoblin> so there's also no need to limit it
1514 2011-02-15 15:32:09 <UukGoblin> if you want to create webs of trust, do it outside of bitcoin, like bitcoin-otc did
1515 2011-02-15 15:36:15 glassresistor has joined
1516 2011-02-15 15:36:42 <glassresistor> so i was trying to use liberty reserve on bitcoin market
1517 2011-02-15 15:37:21 <glassresistor> but it says i need to get another service get the money out of my account, im really confused
1518 2011-02-15 15:38:29 <edcba> ok sorry was on phone
1519 2011-02-15 15:38:34 <UukGoblin> yup that's libertyreserve for you glassresistor
1520 2011-02-15 15:38:43 <UukGoblin> there's exchangezone or something
1521 2011-02-15 15:39:03 <edcba> you may still have some anonimity
1522 2011-02-15 15:39:11 <UukGoblin> glassresistor, you could also try bitcoin-otc, maybe you'll find a LRUSD buyer there that'll pay you with paypal
1523 2011-02-15 15:39:21 <edcba> you'd just add relation between addresses
1524 2011-02-15 15:39:44 <UukGoblin> edcba, you can do it without limiting anything
1525 2011-02-15 15:39:56 <UukGoblin> use a DHT and store trust information in it for instance
1526 2011-02-15 15:40:22 <edcba> no i mean someone generate a fraudulent block
1527 2011-02-15 15:40:54 <edcba> i want to penalize creator of the block
1528 2011-02-15 15:41:30 <UukGoblin> the network will do it for you quickly enough
1529 2011-02-15 15:41:45 <glassresistor> UukGoblin: im not completely aware of how bitcoin-otr work
1530 2011-02-15 15:42:23 <edcba> so yes how bitcoin-otc works ?
1531 2011-02-15 15:42:24 <UukGoblin> bitcoin-otc
1532 2011-02-15 15:42:47 <glassresistor> what is a lr service that will do direct deposit for free or nearly free? since im the seller want the buyer pay the free anyways
1533 2011-02-15 15:42:50 <UukGoblin> well check the website at http://bitcoin-otc.com/
1534 2011-02-15 15:42:54 <UukGoblin> and join #bitcoin-otc
1535 2011-02-15 15:42:58 <Diablo-D3> back
1536 2011-02-15 15:43:20 <Diablo-D3> [10:05:55] <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I tried to check with 2.7 but mvn failed with Unable to download the artifact from any repository
1537 2011-02-15 15:43:23 <Diablo-D3> 2.7.1
1538 2011-02-15 15:43:35 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I've already determined 2.7.1 is broken
1539 2011-02-15 15:43:38 <glassresistor> yeah i meant bitcoin-otc i know its an irc channel for trading but ive never understood how it worked or how to use it
1540 2011-02-15 15:44:01 <edcba> UukGoblin: but here you may have to trust any new user as 'default'
1541 2011-02-15 15:44:14 <UukGoblin> glassresistor, it's a channel that is supposed to get sellers and buyers together and make the trades easier
1542 2011-02-15 15:44:38 <UukGoblin> edcba, no, you trust only the length of the chain and validity of the blocks in it
1543 2011-02-15 15:44:39 <edcba> when limiting address default is backed with parent
1544 2011-02-15 15:45:44 <edcba> UukGoblin: the problem lies with double spending by some block generator
1545 2011-02-15 15:46:25 <UukGoblin> I don't think a block generator can double-spend
1546 2011-02-15 15:46:28 <edcba> ie i generate a block but before broadcasting it i go to some online store makes a next to be double spent transaction
1547 2011-02-15 15:46:50 <UukGoblin> yeah
1548 2011-02-15 15:46:57 <UukGoblin> the store then waits for ~6 blocks to confirm the transaction
1549 2011-02-15 15:47:07 <edcba> yes of course
1550 2011-02-15 15:47:20 <UukGoblin> so you broadcast your fraudulent block, network realizes it's shit and drops it on the floor and generates 6 new of its own...
1551 2011-02-15 15:47:27 <edcba> now we want a fast system
1552 2011-02-15 15:48:13 <UukGoblin> like mtgox?
1553 2011-02-15 15:48:15 <edcba> store doesn't want to wait for 6 blocks :)
1554 2011-02-15 15:48:30 <UukGoblin> mtgox / mybitcoin.
1555 2011-02-15 15:48:45 <UukGoblin> or any other bitcoin bank
1556 2011-02-15 15:49:47 <UukGoblin> ideally what I'd like is a RFC for inter-bank bitcoin transfers
1557 2011-02-15 15:50:03 <Diablo-D3> erm
1558 2011-02-15 15:50:07 <edcba> i think bitcoin is actually inter-bank transfers...
1559 2011-02-15 15:50:09 <Diablo-D3> that'd just be bitcoin
1560 2011-02-15 15:50:09 <UukGoblin> so that you can seamlessly and quickly transfer bitcoins between mtgox and mybitcoin
1561 2011-02-15 15:50:13 <Diablo-D3> since everyone IS a bank
1562 2011-02-15 15:50:25 <edcba> what we need is a fast bitcoin for users
1563 2011-02-15 15:50:26 <UukGoblin> no
1564 2011-02-15 15:50:34 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: you'd just need addresses at mtgox and mybitcoin
1565 2011-02-15 15:51:04 RichardG has joined
1566 2011-02-15 15:51:06 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, no, transfers within mtgox or mybitcoin are instantaneously confirmed by the reputation of the site
1567 2011-02-15 15:51:28 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: define within... you mean mtgox->mtgox or mybitcoin->mybitcoin?
1568 2011-02-15 15:51:35 <UukGoblin> both
1569 2011-02-15 15:51:53 <UukGoblin> haven't actually used mybitcoin but I believe it allows user-to-user transfers?
1570 2011-02-15 15:52:08 <Diablo-D3> user to user doesnt use bitcoin
1571 2011-02-15 15:52:09 <Diablo-D3> thats why
1572 2011-02-15 15:52:44 <UukGoblin> hm?
1573 2011-02-15 15:52:50 <UukGoblin> oh
1574 2011-02-15 15:52:53 <RichardG> anyone got bitcoinwatch to output data without [g]zipping
1575 2011-02-15 15:53:09 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: like, go ahead and send money to yourself
1576 2011-02-15 15:53:12 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt go anywhere
1577 2011-02-15 15:53:13 <UukGoblin> RichardG, what's the problem with [g]unzipping?
1578 2011-02-15 15:53:39 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I dont think the transaction is even recorded
1579 2011-02-15 15:53:59 <RichardG> UukGoblin: i'm coding an IRC bot but mIRC doesn't have a convenient way for [g]unzipping...
1580 2011-02-15 15:54:00 <Diablo-D3> it just updates the bitcoin accounts if you're using them
1581 2011-02-15 15:54:07 <Diablo-D3> RichardG: use perl you noob.
1582 2011-02-15 15:54:10 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I'm not actually sure if mtgox can do it, but what we're talking about here is an instant transfer of bitcoins from one mtgox account to another
1583 2011-02-15 15:54:14 <RichardG> 100.0000001% of them are dlls which freeze the client while unpacking
1584 2011-02-15 15:54:19 <RichardG> Diablo-D3: i dont code in perl
1585 2011-02-15 15:54:23 <Diablo-D3> RichardG: learn to.
1586 2011-02-15 15:54:27 <Diablo-D3> RichardG: otherwise, dont bother.
1587 2011-02-15 15:54:30 <RichardG> no u.
1588 2011-02-15 15:54:38 <Diablo-D3> stop promoting the use of closed source software
1589 2011-02-15 15:55:04 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, and then extending it so that more services like mtgox could communicate with each other
1590 2011-02-15 15:55:13 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: what Im saying is, any site that uses bitcoin accounts OR internal accounting of its own, the transfers will be instant
1591 2011-02-15 15:55:25 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1592 2011-02-15 15:55:29 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: but to send money between mtgox and mybitcoin, you'd use bitcoin for it
1593 2011-02-15 15:55:36 <Sami345> yes!
1594 2011-02-15 15:55:36 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: otherwise you are subverting the proof of work chain
1595 2011-02-15 15:55:45 <Sami345> I GENERATED A BLOCK!!!!!
1596 2011-02-15 15:55:51 <sipa> congratulations
1597 2011-02-15 15:55:53 <Sami345> ALL BY MYSELF
1598 2011-02-15 15:56:00 <bitcoin_bonus> woot
1599 2011-02-15 15:56:00 <sipa> is it a boy?
1600 2011-02-15 15:56:03 <Diablo-D3> lol
1601 2011-02-15 15:56:05 <UukGoblin> RichardG, it's pointless getting bitcoinwatch to output large chunks of uncompressed data because it'd just waste bandwidth
1602 2011-02-15 15:56:07 <grubles> *high five*
1603 2011-02-15 15:56:08 lfm has joined
1604 2011-02-15 15:56:09 <welterde> Diablo-D3: pff.. perl.. that's a dead end :P
1605 2011-02-15 15:56:20 <sipa> flamewar!
1606 2011-02-15 15:56:26 <Diablo-D3> welterde: except perl has an entire framework to write irc bots in
1607 2011-02-15 15:56:26 * sipa grabs some chips
1608 2011-02-15 15:56:29 <Diablo-D3> mirc doesnt.
1609 2011-02-15 15:56:35 sgillet has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1610 2011-02-15 15:56:37 <Diablo-D3> mirc is also a pile of shit that cant be extended
1611 2011-02-15 15:56:39 <welterde> Diablo-D3: perl > mirc. agreed.
1612 2011-02-15 15:56:41 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, yes, but with a proper RFC and inter-site trust, you could speed it up and show it up as instantanous
1613 2011-02-15 15:56:47 <Diablo-D3> nor does it run headless, or on linux
1614 2011-02-15 15:56:58 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: except the entire point of bitcoin is to trust no one
1615 2011-02-15 15:57:01 <welterde> in fact * > mirc.
1616 2011-02-15 15:57:04 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: thus, no one should trust anyone
1617 2011-02-15 15:57:10 * UukGoblin is surprised at Diablo-D3 advocating anything that isn't java
1618 2011-02-15 15:57:10 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: ergo, your idea is invalid.
1619 2011-02-15 15:57:19 <RichardG> i could do it in shell if it could do proper string parsing
1620 2011-02-15 15:57:28 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, bitcoin inherently requires trust...
1621 2011-02-15 15:57:30 <RichardG> and i had some irc framework
1622 2011-02-15 15:57:31 <Diablo-D3> RichardG: sh+awk+sed == perl.
1623 2011-02-15 15:57:35 <welterde> RichardG: search for zsh and irc client :P
1624 2011-02-15 15:57:39 <RichardG> forget ii, never worked for me
1625 2011-02-15 15:57:40 <RichardG> -_-
1626 2011-02-15 15:57:45 <welterde> -and
1627 2011-02-15 15:57:56 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: bitcoin requires zero trust
1628 2011-02-15 15:58:01 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, bullshit
1629 2011-02-15 15:58:09 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: how so?
1630 2011-02-15 15:58:11 <sipa> it requires trust in the software and its principles
1631 2011-02-15 15:58:15 <sipa> but not in its users
1632 2011-02-15 15:58:17 <UukGoblin> if I buy bitcoin on bitcoinmarket, I actually trust the user not to reverse the paypal transaction
1633 2011-02-15 15:58:18 akem has joined
1634 2011-02-15 15:58:18 akem has quit (Changing host)
1635 2011-02-15 15:58:18 akem has joined
1636 2011-02-15 15:58:25 <Diablo-D3> sipa: I dont need to trust the software either
1637 2011-02-15 15:58:30 <Diablo-D3> its open source
1638 2011-02-15 15:58:31 <welterde> RichardG: you should give ruby a try though.. ;)
1639 2011-02-15 15:58:34 <UukGoblin> if I buy something from biddingpond, I actually trust that someone will send the item after I pay
1640 2011-02-15 15:58:52 <UukGoblin> sipa, to the contrary ;-] software side doesn't need trust, users do ;-]
1641 2011-02-15 15:58:52 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: except I dont need to trust them either, thus I dont do business on those sites
1642 2011-02-15 15:59:02 gavinandresen has joined
1643 2011-02-15 15:59:17 <RichardG> i should make a keynote-disposable presentation on why do people don't like bitcoin
1644 2011-02-15 15:59:21 <RichardG> and the explanations to that
1645 2011-02-15 15:59:33 <UukGoblin> you don't /need/ to, but if you didn't trust *anyone* you effectively couldn't use bitcoin for anything
1646 2011-02-15 15:59:49 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, or give me a usage scenario where you can use bitcoins without trusting anyone
1647 2011-02-15 16:00:10 <RichardG> too bad i uninstalled msoffice...
1648 2011-02-15 16:00:22 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I think you misunderstood when I said trust
1649 2011-02-15 16:00:30 <welterde> s/too bad/good thing/
1650 2011-02-15 16:00:32 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: if someone fucks me outside of the financial transaction, thats unrelated
1651 2011-02-15 16:00:48 <lfm> i think i detect a back[peddal
1652 2011-02-15 16:00:53 <UukGoblin> oh but that's precisely where all the trust is needed
1653 2011-02-15 16:00:56 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: the transaction itself is trusted.
1654 2011-02-15 16:01:04 <UukGoblin> not until it's confirmed
1655 2011-02-15 16:01:12 <Diablo-D3> if someone sends me 50 BTC, I can confirm, immediately, that it is valid.
1656 2011-02-15 16:01:20 <sipa> UukGoblin: no, that's where all the trust is needed with bitcoin agreed - but it could be much worse
1657 2011-02-15 16:01:23 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, no
1658 2011-02-15 16:01:27 <Diablo-D3> Yes.
1659 2011-02-15 16:01:34 <Diablo-D3> once my client says confirmed, it is confirmed.
1660 2011-02-15 16:01:38 <Diablo-D3> period.
1661 2011-02-15 16:01:45 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, because that someone could've sent the same 50 BTC to someone else a split second earlier
1662 2011-02-15 16:01:49 <UukGoblin> yes
1663 2011-02-15 16:01:50 <Diablo-D3> to take backs, no bank calling me up and saying I cashed a bad check
1664 2011-02-15 16:01:55 <Diablo-D3> s/to/no/
1665 2011-02-15 16:01:56 <UukGoblin> your client says confirmed after 6 blocks
1666 2011-02-15 16:02:08 <Diablo-D3> [10:54:40] <Diablo-D3> once my client says confirmed, it is confirmed.
1667 2011-02-15 16:02:09 <Diablo-D3> [10:54:45] <Diablo-D3> period.
1668 2011-02-15 16:02:10 <Diablo-D3> what did I say.
1669 2011-02-15 16:02:17 <nanotube> RichardG: openoffice :)
1670 2011-02-15 16:02:18 <UukGoblin> 155420 < Diablo-D3> if someone sends me 50 BTC, I can confirm, immediately,
1671 2011-02-15 16:02:23 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, you said immediately
1672 2011-02-15 16:02:33 <RichardG> nanotube: was going to
1673 2011-02-15 16:02:34 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: until my client says confirmed, they have not sent me 50 BC
1674 2011-02-15 16:02:40 <sipa> UukGoblin: compare with a system like bitcoin, but without any prevention of double spending
1675 2011-02-15 16:02:40 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: they are merely in the process of sending it
1676 2011-02-15 16:02:41 <UukGoblin> that's not immediate!
1677 2011-02-15 16:02:50 <sipa> THAT would require the trust Diablo-D3 is talking about
1678 2011-02-15 16:03:01 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I can confirm that the client says confirmed immediately
1679 2011-02-15 16:03:04 <RichardG> as soon as i'm done doing part of the presentation
1680 2011-02-15 16:03:10 <RichardG> i'll publish a pdf export
1681 2011-02-15 16:03:11 <welterde> nanotube: don't even have that installed anymore(and no.. libreoffice not either..)
1682 2011-02-15 16:03:13 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I _cannot_ confirm that a bank says confirmed even after they say they have
1683 2011-02-15 16:03:18 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, no, the client will say confirmed about an hour after the transaction
1684 2011-02-15 16:03:31 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: yes, and once it does, I can immediately confirm that is is confirmed
1685 2011-02-15 16:03:41 <RichardG> nanotube: it has turned libreoffice due to independence from oracle
1686 2011-02-15 16:03:49 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, yes but that's an hour later
1687 2011-02-15 16:03:51 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
1688 2011-02-15 16:03:57 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: but its exactly what I said
1689 2011-02-15 16:04:00 <ArtForz> 6 blocks later != immediately
1690 2011-02-15 16:04:12 <ArtForz> unless we disagree on what the definition of "is" is
1691 2011-02-15 16:04:13 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, you don't want to go to order lunch and wait an hour before your food starts being cooked because your transaction needs to be processed by the fast food vendor
1692 2011-02-15 16:04:13 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: a bank or credit card, otoh, can take back money after they've already credited my account
1693 2011-02-15 16:04:23 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: up to 90 days after the transaction has been completed
1694 2011-02-15 16:04:25 <Diablo-D3> thus
1695 2011-02-15 16:04:27 <Diablo-D3> banks cannot be trusted
1696 2011-02-15 16:04:29 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin can
1697 2011-02-15 16:04:34 <welterde> nanotube: LaTeX is much more suited for the stuff I write
1698 2011-02-15 16:04:38 wsc9tt has joined
1699 2011-02-15 16:04:42 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, yes that's correct
1700 2011-02-15 16:04:54 <ArtForz> well, not quite correct
1701 2011-02-15 16:05:04 <RichardG> welterde: it's just a presentation on why do people dislike/fear bitcoin
1702 2011-02-15 16:05:08 <ArtForz> but close enough
1703 2011-02-15 16:05:15 <RichardG> disposable in a format you could use on a keynote
1704 2011-02-15 16:05:31 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, did you actually understand what I said though?
1705 2011-02-15 16:05:42 <UukGoblin> about the bank-to-bank bitcoin transfer protocol?
1706 2011-02-15 16:05:44 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: I did, neat idea
1707 2011-02-15 16:05:51 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, thanks
1708 2011-02-15 16:05:53 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: yes, and bitcoin IS that bank to bank protocol
1709 2011-02-15 16:06:09 <welterde> RichardG: latex-beamer ftw!
1710 2011-02-15 16:06:12 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, then you didn't ;-]
1711 2011-02-15 16:06:23 <UukGoblin> or I didn't express myself properly
1712 2011-02-15 16:06:33 <ArtForz> actually all we'd need is a protocol so 2 partys can exchange keys and sign "I sent you TX X" messages
1713 2011-02-15 16:06:50 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes
1714 2011-02-15 16:06:52 <Diablo-D3> which cannot be trusted
1715 2011-02-15 16:06:59 <Diablo-D3> because its a transaction done outside of the chain.
1716 2011-02-15 16:07:02 <ArtForz> no
1717 2011-02-15 16:07:08 <ArtForz> it's still going into the chain
1718 2011-02-15 16:07:10 <nanotube> welterde: latex ftw, indeed. :)
1719 2011-02-15 16:07:13 <UukGoblin> you follow it up into the chain
1720 2011-02-15 16:07:18 <ArtForz> I'm basically saying "I trust X to not try to doublespend"
1721 2011-02-15 16:07:22 <luke-jr> RichardG: I think don't-care-about will be a bigger problem than dislike/fear
1722 2011-02-15 16:07:30 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: which I do not trust someone else's judgement
1723 2011-02-15 16:07:31 <UukGoblin> or you can also buffer them up and create once-per-day transactions to avoid bitcoin fees
1724 2011-02-15 16:07:32 <Diablo-D3> ESPECIALLY a bank
1725 2011-02-15 16:07:35 <luke-jr> welterde: but LaTeX is non-free ;)
1726 2011-02-15 16:07:46 <RichardG> luke-jr: yeah
1727 2011-02-15 16:07:49 <RichardG> title
1728 2011-02-15 16:07:50 <ArtForz> Diablo-D3: err... huh?
1729 2011-02-15 16:07:50 <UukGoblin> LaTeX is non-free? since when?
1730 2011-02-15 16:07:52 <welterde> you could implement that protocl as special transaction inside bitcoin..
1731 2011-02-15 16:07:57 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: since always
1732 2011-02-15 16:07:58 <RichardG> Why do people don't care about Bitcoin?
1733 2011-02-15 16:08:00 wsc9tt has left ()
1734 2011-02-15 16:08:06 <ArtForz> I'd rather not have crap like this in the main protocol
1735 2011-02-15 16:08:09 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I will not do business with a bitcoin bank that is trying to subvert bitcoin
1736 2011-02-15 16:08:12 <Diablo-D3> period
1737 2011-02-15 16:08:13 <Diablo-D3> end of story
1738 2011-02-15 16:08:16 <RichardG> i already got the first subjects in mind
1739 2011-02-15 16:08:16 <luke-jr> RichardG: then it's obviously backwards; why *should* they care?
1740 2011-02-15 16:08:18 <Diablo-D3> and I doubt anyone else will either
1741 2011-02-15 16:08:19 <RichardG> market value and mining
1742 2011-02-15 16:08:22 <welterde> luke-jr: wikipedia says otherwise..
1743 2011-02-15 16:08:22 <ArtForz> WHERES THE FUCKING SUBVERTING
1744 2011-02-15 16:08:28 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: and by your own fucking words, its an hour
1745 2011-02-15 16:08:29 <welterde> :P
1746 2011-02-15 16:08:32 <Diablo-D3> its not 3 days like the real banks
1747 2011-02-15 16:08:37 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, http://www.latex-project.org/lppl/ "The LaTeX project public license is a free software license. "
1748 2011-02-15 16:08:38 <luke-jr> welterde: Wikipedia is fallible
1749 2011-02-15 16:08:38 <Diablo-D3> if you cant wait one fucking hour, then go fuck yourself
1750 2011-02-15 16:08:45 <ArtForz> it's still a transaction that goees in the block chain
1751 2011-02-15 16:09:03 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes, but its some sort of sideband bullshit
1752 2011-02-15 16:09:05 <welterde> luke-jr: the OSI says so as well..
1753 2011-02-15 16:09:07 <ArtForz> so?
1754 2011-02-15 16:09:14 <UukGoblin> RichardG, "Why do people don't care about Bitcoin?" is an invalid english sentence
1755 2011-02-15 16:09:30 <nanotube> UukGoblin: that's never stopped anyone :P
1756 2011-02-15 16:09:31 <nanotube> heh
1757 2011-02-15 16:09:40 <Diablo-D3> the only protocol that would make sense is a secured json api with security token that can query and lock remote amounts
1758 2011-02-15 16:09:46 <RichardG> UukGoblin sorry i'm not a native speaker
1759 2011-02-15 16:09:54 <ArtForz> huh?
1760 2011-02-15 16:10:00 <nanotube> RichardG: s/don't/not/ and it's fine.
1761 2011-02-15 16:10:00 <ArtForz> that makes even less sense
1762 2011-02-15 16:10:15 <RichardG> a menos que a apresentação seja em português ;)
1763 2011-02-15 16:10:16 <Diablo-D3> so, mtgox gives mybitcoin a token, then mybitcoin can query mtgox accounts and lock amounts of coins
1764 2011-02-15 16:10:20 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, not true, xml-rpc would make sense just as much
1765 2011-02-15 16:10:27 <ArtForz> whats the fucking point of that
1766 2011-02-15 16:10:33 <Diablo-D3> mybitcoin then can immediately credit mybitcoin users
1767 2011-02-15 16:10:35 MingusDew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1768 2011-02-15 16:10:41 <luke-jr> welterde: I don't.
1769 2011-02-15 16:10:47 <Diablo-D3> without the user being able to spend the money on mtgox, because mtgox has agreed to lock it.
1770 2011-02-15 16:10:55 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
1771 2011-02-15 16:11:03 <luke-jr> welterde: http://www.latex-project.org/lppl/lppl-1-3c.html
1772 2011-02-15 16:11:09 <Diablo-D3> the security token is given to mybitcoin, not the mybitcoin user.
1773 2011-02-15 16:11:14 <lfm> id be like cheques between banks
1774 2011-02-15 16:11:16 <ArtForz> same thing I am proposing
1775 2011-02-15 16:11:25 <Diablo-D3> and locking it _only_ prevents the mtgox user from spending it
1776 2011-02-15 16:11:29 <Diablo-D3> it does nothing outside of that.
1777 2011-02-15 16:11:36 <ArtForz> whats the fucking point of that
1778 2011-02-15 16:11:42 <Diablo-D3> its merely a forwards intention to transfer money
1779 2011-02-15 16:11:43 <UukGoblin> yawn.
1780 2011-02-15 16:11:45 <welterde> luke-jr: ah.. so it's non-free, because you say so.. fair enough..
1781 2011-02-15 16:11:50 <luke-jr> welterde: read it. :p
1782 2011-02-15 16:12:00 <ArtForz> again, whats. the. fucking point.
1783 2011-02-15 16:12:04 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: without it, then mybitcoin cannot immediately credit users on transfers
1784 2011-02-15 16:12:11 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: this is what UukGoblin originally wanted
1785 2011-02-15 16:12:18 <luke-jr> welterde: I consider it non-free because it requires me to distribute their unmodified version with my (theoretical) modified version
1786 2011-02-15 16:12:19 <Diablo-D3> but didnt know how to articulate himself
1787 2011-02-15 16:12:32 <ArtForz> that sounds pretty stupid
1788 2011-02-15 16:12:33 <lfm> welterde: luke sez anythin but gnu isnt free afaik
1789 2011-02-15 16:12:39 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well, it IS pretty stupid
1790 2011-02-15 16:12:40 <luke-jr> lfm: nonsense
1791 2011-02-15 16:12:43 <Diablo-D3> and I said this about a half hour ago
1792 2011-02-15 16:12:48 <Diablo-D3> but this is effectively what UukGoblin wants
1793 2011-02-15 16:12:55 <Diablo-D3> forward intention to transfer.
1794 2011-02-15 16:12:56 <welterde> luke-jr: don't have a problem with that..
1795 2011-02-15 16:12:57 <ArtForz> you can do the same thing without weird locking and crap
1796 2011-02-15 16:13:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well yes, you can _just transfer the coins_
1797 2011-02-15 16:13:08 <Diablo-D3> it takes an hour.
1798 2011-02-15 16:13:18 <Diablo-D3> but UukGoblin has convinced himself that transfers should be instant
1799 2011-02-15 16:13:20 <Diablo-D3> and they shouldnt.
1800 2011-02-15 16:13:25 <UukGoblin> hrm?
1801 2011-02-15 16:13:30 * welterde checks if the food is finally done..
1802 2011-02-15 16:13:30 <luke-jr> welterde: lots of people don't have a problem with EULAs. doesn't make them free.
1803 2011-02-15 16:13:48 <luke-jr> lfm: http://scm.dashjr.org/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=portage-overlay-luke-jr&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fprofiles%2Flicense_groups.rationale
1804 2011-02-15 16:13:52 <ArtForz> no, I think he said that for example transfers between mtgox and mybitcoin accounts should be instant
1805 2011-02-15 16:13:56 <luke-jr> (also: http://scm.dashjr.org/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=portage-overlay-luke-jr&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fprofiles%2Flicense_groups.rejected )
1806 2011-02-15 16:14:03 <ArtForz> which doesnt involve the user in any way
1807 2011-02-15 16:14:04 <UukGoblin> what I want is for bank1 to be able to sign an agreement with bank2 and enable the user to transfer money from bank1's account to someone else's bank2 account in a credit-card like instant manner
1808 2011-02-15 16:14:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: yes, and to make it instant it requires imposed trust.
1809 2011-02-15 16:14:14 <Diablo-D3> and I described a system that would impose such trust.
1810 2011-02-15 16:14:22 <ArtForz> your scheme does the exact same thing
1811 2011-02-15 16:14:26 <ArtForz> actually it's even worse
1812 2011-02-15 16:14:33 <ArtForz> but hey, thanks for playing
1813 2011-02-15 16:14:40 <Diablo-D3> if mtgox no longer trusts mybitcoin, they can revoke the security token
1814 2011-02-15 16:14:47 <ArtForz> "imposed" trust? by who? on who?
1815 2011-02-15 16:14:57 <Diablo-D3> if mybitcoin no longer trusts mtgox, then they can stop using it.
1816 2011-02-15 16:14:57 <UukGoblin> by 'instant' I mean 'taking few seconds'
1817 2011-02-15 16:15:15 <glassresistor> for people using money brokers how long does it normally take money to get from the market to mb? i just made a trade but don't see it in mb yet
1818 2011-02-15 16:16:04 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: the bitcoin system itself imposes a system of trust.
1819 2011-02-15 16:16:06 <ArtForz> and again, how is your weird-ass "locking" scheme helping anything?
1820 2011-02-15 16:16:23 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: allowing mybitcoin to hand out coins for free attacks every other mybitcoin user
1821 2011-02-15 16:16:42 <Diablo-D3> because if someone double spends using instant mybitcoin transfers with no way of mtgox locking the sum on the offending user's account...
1822 2011-02-15 16:16:46 <ArtForz> hand out coins for free? what the fucking fuck are you fucking talking about
1823 2011-02-15 16:16:50 <Diablo-D3> then mybitcoin defaults on it's obligations
1824 2011-02-15 16:17:13 <UukGoblin> doesn't need to lock anything, just subtract the transferred amount out of the user's balance
1825 2011-02-15 16:17:29 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: which DUN DUN DUNNN
1826 2011-02-15 16:17:32 <Diablo-D3> requires an api to do so
1827 2011-02-15 16:17:38 <UukGoblin> so?
1828 2011-02-15 16:17:38 MingusDew has joined
1829 2011-02-15 16:17:41 <welterde> luke-jr: the requirement to redistribute the unmodified version with the modified version doesn't make it non-free though imho
1830 2011-02-15 16:17:46 <Diablo-D3> the user sees it subtracted from his account, but it actually hasnt been subtracted
1831 2011-02-15 16:17:55 <Diablo-D3> its just been removed from use, ie, locked
1832 2011-02-15 16:17:57 <ArtForz> why not?
1833 2011-02-15 16:18:03 <xelister> radeon 6850 - what is its Mhash?  how compatible is it?
1834 2011-02-15 16:18:08 <xelister> ArtForz:  help \o/
1835 2011-02-15 16:18:08 <Diablo-D3> its in the process of being sent.
1836 2011-02-15 16:18:19 <UukGoblin> 154254 <@UukGoblin> ideally what I'd like is a RFC for inter-bank bitcoin  transfers
1837 2011-02-15 16:18:23 <ArtForz> user requests transfer of X from mybitcoin addr Y to mtgox addr Z
1838 2011-02-15 16:18:37 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: you mean XY to XZ
1839 2011-02-15 16:18:44 <lfm> it would seem the mtgox user would still need to tell mtgox to please send this amount to mybitcoin user y right away then the two banks would need to trust each other with a protocol to do it
1840 2011-02-15 16:18:48 <UukGoblin> I thought that RFC kinda implies some kind of protocol or API
1841 2011-02-15 16:18:54 <Diablo-D3> but we dont know if X is attacking Y and Z using the accounts XY and XZ
1842 2011-02-15 16:19:01 <ArtForz> wthat?
1843 2011-02-15 16:19:33 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, if it did such a thing it means it's cheating
1844 2011-02-15 16:19:36 <Diablo-D3> if Z credits X instantly, and then Y doesnt transfer to Z (XY->XZ), then X has stolen from Z.
1845 2011-02-15 16:19:43 <UukGoblin> and you break the agreement and prosecute him in court
1846 2011-02-15 16:19:55 <Diablo-D3> yes, and you cant presecute in court over non-legal tender
1847 2011-02-15 16:19:57 <Diablo-D3> since it doesnt exist
1848 2011-02-15 16:20:06 <ArtForz> meanwhile Q killed E and R is scheming for world domination
1849 2011-02-15 16:20:22 <lfm> Diablo-D3: BS they are just commodities
1850 2011-02-15 16:20:29 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, yeah, none of which is over legal tender
1851 2011-02-15 16:20:37 <Diablo-D3> ever see someone sue over EvE credits or WoW gold?
1852 2011-02-15 16:20:41 <Diablo-D3> no.
1853 2011-02-15 16:20:53 <lfm> they could
1854 2011-02-15 16:20:57 <lfm> if they could prove it
1855 2011-02-15 16:20:58 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin is just as artifical and fake
1856 2011-02-15 16:21:00 <UukGoblin> cause the transfers were usually tiny?
1857 2011-02-15 16:21:03 <Diablo-D3> dont inflate it to something its not.
1858 2011-02-15 16:21:17 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, the bitcoin system itself forces you to be unable to cheat the system
1859 2011-02-15 16:21:26 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, I did FBI fucking LL over SL gambling, which was all over L$
1860 2011-02-15 16:21:34 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: because thats gambling
1861 2011-02-15 16:21:42 <UukGoblin> s/did/did see/
1862 2011-02-15 16:21:49 <Diablo-D3> LL does not have a license to run a gambling establishment
1863 2011-02-15 16:22:05 <ArtForz> again, what the fuck has that to do with anything?
1864 2011-02-15 16:22:08 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, yes but HEY! was it gambling in legal tenger? no! yet they still could've had a court case over it
1865 2011-02-15 16:22:16 <Diablo-D3> all gambling establishments in the US use psudeo-currencies, ie, usually USD denominated gambling chips
1866 2011-02-15 16:22:21 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: see above
1867 2011-02-15 16:22:42 <UukGoblin> I agree it has nothing to do with the RFC I wanted.
1868 2011-02-15 16:22:42 <Diablo-D3> the law effectively requires legitimate gambling establishments to use such things
1869 2011-02-15 16:22:50 <Diablo-D3> anyhow
1870 2011-02-15 16:22:56 <Diablo-D3> I described what you wanted.
1871 2011-02-15 16:23:03 <welterde> luke-jr: debian also considers it free.. so..
1872 2011-02-15 16:23:06 <lfm> so you can sue over trades which need not involve "legal tender"
1873 2011-02-15 16:23:19 <UukGoblin> lfm, yes, that was my point.
1874 2011-02-15 16:23:29 <Diablo-D3> X, the user, M, the place with the money, N, the place getting the money, XM, X's account at M, XN, X's account at N
1875 2011-02-15 16:23:46 <ArtForz> okay
1876 2011-02-15 16:23:55 <edcba> solve X for M=1
1877 2011-02-15 16:24:02 <UukGoblin> 42!
1878 2011-02-15 16:24:15 <lfm> e=mc^2
1879 2011-02-15 16:24:16 <Diablo-D3> without what I described, N instantly credits XN, X moves the money out, and then M never subtracts from XM and X at the same time has moved all his money out of XM
1880 2011-02-15 16:24:28 <ArtForz> no it doesnt
1881 2011-02-15 16:24:29 <Diablo-D3> N is now on the hook for the money X stole
1882 2011-02-15 16:24:33 <ArtForz> read what I fucking wrote
1883 2011-02-15 16:24:44 <Diablo-D3> which puts in harms way EVERY user of N
1884 2011-02-15 16:24:52 <Diablo-D3> since N now has to cover the lost amount and may be unable to
1885 2011-02-15 16:25:19 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1886 2011-02-15 16:25:19 <Diablo-D3> my way allows N to request to M that the transfer take place atomically and lock that amount until N has confirmed the transaction is complete
1887 2011-02-15 16:25:21 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, of course M subtracts before any transfer occurs
1888 2011-02-15 16:25:44 <ArtForz> M broadcasts a plain old transaction of [sum] to N over the plain old bitcoin network
1889 2011-02-15 16:25:52 <Diablo-D3> during the lock, the money wont be in M's hand unless bitcoin fails to get the transfer into the chain
1890 2011-02-15 16:25:59 <Diablo-D3> the lock cannot be undone.
1891 2011-02-15 16:26:13 <ArtForz> M also sends N a notification via side channel containing a signed "that tx is from me"
1892 2011-02-15 16:26:24 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, that's bank's implementation-specific issue, it has nothing to do with the protocol they'll use
1893 2011-02-15 16:26:32 <ArtForz> the only way for M to take back the money is... via a double-spend
1894 2011-02-15 16:26:33 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I just described the protocol.
1895 2011-02-15 16:26:38 <lfm> anyone notice a boom in blocks/min the last few hours?
1896 2011-02-15 16:26:52 <Diablo-D3> lfm: oasis in the dsesrt.
1897 2011-02-15 16:26:59 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, one option of it yes
1898 2011-02-15 16:27:16 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: my way more closely works like existing security protocols.
1899 2011-02-15 16:27:56 <ArtForz> what existing protocols?
1900 2011-02-15 16:28:07 Raulo has joined
1901 2011-02-15 16:28:11 <Diablo-D3> there are many protocols that allow one service to create actions on behalf of other users
1902 2011-02-15 16:28:12 <lfm> banking protocols?
1903 2011-02-15 16:28:21 <Diablo-D3> which is essentially what this is doing
1904 2011-02-15 16:28:22 <ArtForz> thats just fucking crazy
1905 2011-02-15 16:28:48 <Diablo-D3> N, on behalf of X, tells M, from the account XM, to transfer to N
1906 2011-02-15 16:28:55 <ArtForz> no
1907 2011-02-15 16:29:14 <Diablo-D3> N would thus require a security token to access the API to do such.
1908 2011-02-15 16:29:25 <ArtForz> user X tells N to do the transfer. N DOES THE TRANSFER.
1909 2011-02-15 16:29:37 <ArtForz> err... wait
1910 2011-02-15 16:29:37 <lfm> generally has to start with x talking to m afaik
1911 2011-02-15 16:29:38 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: but bitcoin doesnt allow remote transfers.
1912 2011-02-15 16:29:39 <xelister> 6xxx cards need which SDK version?
1913 2011-02-15 16:29:39 <edcba> some ppl forget that bitcoin is here to avoid use of central authorities...
1914 2011-02-15 16:29:39 <ArtForz> M or whatever
1915 2011-02-15 16:29:43 <ArtForz> exactly
1916 2011-02-15 16:29:47 <ArtForz> it doesnt fucking have to
1917 2011-02-15 16:29:54 <Diablo-D3> no, it doesnt
1918 2011-02-15 16:29:58 <Diablo-D3> but people are faggots.
1919 2011-02-15 16:30:03 <Diablo-D3> like UukGoblin
1920 2011-02-15 16:30:09 <ArtForz> I dont want mtgox able to initiate transfers from my mybitcoin account. thats just stupid.
1921 2011-02-15 16:30:10 <Diablo-D3> because _we dont need this to begin with_
1922 2011-02-15 16:30:13 <Diablo-D3> wait the fucking hour.
1923 2011-02-15 16:30:20 <lfm> ya sure name calling prove it
1924 2011-02-15 16:30:25 <Diablo-D3> no one needs to instantly credit anyone
1925 2011-02-15 16:30:30 <Diablo-D3> its a security violation and its not easily solved.
1926 2011-02-15 16:30:33 <UukGoblin> there are many options to achieve that thing
1927 2011-02-15 16:30:40 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: and none of them are correct.
1928 2011-02-15 16:30:42 <ArtForz> it's fucking plain simple
1929 2011-02-15 16:30:45 <Diablo-D3> the best system is the one I described
1930 2011-02-15 16:30:49 <Diablo-D3> and it should never be implemented
1931 2011-02-15 16:30:56 <ArtForz> no, it's just fucking stupid.
1932 2011-02-15 16:31:01 <ArtForz> and a fuckling strawman
1933 2011-02-15 16:31:05 <Diablo-D3> I will refuse to do buisness that implements such a thing
1934 2011-02-15 16:31:12 <UukGoblin> one I like is to basically for N and M to exchange all transactions between themselves in a secure channel, and only do one bitcoin transaction per day with the balance
1935 2011-02-15 16:31:14 <Diablo-D3> er, business with anyone that does that
1936 2011-02-15 16:31:15 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, bullshit
1937 2011-02-15 16:31:18 <ArtForz> UukGoblin never asked for banks to bea able to debit accounts at other banks willy-nilly
1938 2011-02-15 16:31:35 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: bullshit, you cannot remove keys from the system and reinsert them elsewhere!
1939 2011-02-15 16:31:42 <Diablo-D3> thats a violation of the trust system
1940 2011-02-15 16:31:49 <Diablo-D3> and clients should reject any false transaction done that way
1941 2011-02-15 16:32:07 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, what keys?
1942 2011-02-15 16:32:11 <edcba> if you want to do some indirect transfer on behalf from X from M to N just let M create a 'channel' address from X to N controlled by M and when X want to send to N he just transfers to that address
1943 2011-02-15 16:32:17 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: "coins"
1944 2011-02-15 16:32:21 <edcba> then M may instantly create another transaction
1945 2011-02-15 16:32:22 <ArtForz> edcba: exactly
1946 2011-02-15 16:32:50 <Diablo-D3> echelon: no, because the correct way is just to have M send to N with a standard transaction
1947 2011-02-15 16:32:51 <lfm> if why not start with payer talk to his bank, please send v to payee at other bank
1948 2011-02-15 16:32:53 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, no removal of coins takes place at any stage
1949 2011-02-15 16:33:02 <Diablo-D3> echelon: what UukGoblin wants is to N instantly credit X
1950 2011-02-15 16:33:09 <Diablo-D3> echelon: instead of waiting the fucking hour
1951 2011-02-15 16:33:14 <xelister> <Diablo-D3> but people are faggots.   <Diablo-D3> like UukGoblin
1952 2011-02-15 16:33:16 <xelister> <_< lol
1953 2011-02-15 16:33:26 <Diablo-D3> what UukGoblin describes is an attack on the bitcoin system
1954 2011-02-15 16:33:32 <Diablo-D3> its not a feature
1955 2011-02-15 16:33:44 <lfm> if why not start with payer talk to his bank, please send v to payee at other bank, if banks know each other they can do it in seconds
1956 2011-02-15 16:33:44 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, are you stupid or a troll?
1957 2011-02-15 16:34:00 <ArtForz> lfm: thats exactly what I'm describing
1958 2011-02-15 16:34:05 <welterde> lfm: no need for an special protocol there imho?
1959 2011-02-15 16:34:05 Zarutian has joined
1960 2011-02-15 16:34:07 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: troll
1961 2011-02-15 16:34:07 <Diablo-D3> lfm: but no transactions cannot be trusted unless bitcoin itself has authenticated the transaction
1962 2011-02-15 16:34:14 <ArtForz> nobody can be that ignorant for real
1963 2011-02-15 16:34:34 satamusic has joined
1964 2011-02-15 16:34:35 * UukGoblin cuts the feeding pipe then
1965 2011-02-15 16:34:40 <ArtForz> btw, Diablo-D3: *plonk*
1966 2011-02-15 16:34:41 <welterde> lfm: if the other bank trusts the first bank it can check with the public key that the first bank issued the transaction and just apply it instantly in their system?
1967 2011-02-15 16:34:45 <lfm> Diablo-D3: ok if you dont trust your own bank then it cant be done
1968 2011-02-15 16:34:58 grifferz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1969 2011-02-15 16:35:03 <Diablo-D3> lfm: the whole point if bitcoin is to trust no one unless the entire system has verified the transaction
1970 2011-02-15 16:35:22 * xelister takes UukGoblin's side:  bitcoin-ecosystem SHOULD allow automatic withdrawals (of course WITH THE OWNER consent)
1971 2011-02-15 16:35:29 <Diablo-D3> if UukGoblin's way becomes common, then entities outside of bitcoin are forcing me to trust them if I wish to use bitcoin
1972 2011-02-15 16:35:36 <Diablo-D3> because eventually all coins will be filtered through them
1973 2011-02-15 16:35:37 <ArtForz> no, I dont think it should
1974 2011-02-15 16:35:53 BlueMatt has joined
1975 2011-02-15 16:36:04 <lfm> Diablo-D3: you are saying you dont want to use banks at all ever
1976 2011-02-15 16:36:12 <ArtForz> I for sure as hell wont be using a service allowing that
1977 2011-02-15 16:36:15 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
1978 2011-02-15 16:36:19 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, Im saying that they should remain wallet holding services
1979 2011-02-15 16:36:22 <xelister> Diablo-D3: no, there still can be people that prefer to do it by hand, that share your view point
1980 2011-02-15 16:36:23 <xelister> hmm wait
1981 2011-02-15 16:36:26 <Diablo-D3> lfm: a bank to bank transfer should take an hour
1982 2011-02-15 16:36:26 xelister is now known as retsilex
1983 2011-02-15 16:36:28 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: no, there still can be people that prefer to do it by hand, that share your view point
1984 2011-02-15 16:36:30 <Diablo-D3> no one should EVER instantly credit
1985 2011-02-15 16:36:31 <Diablo-D3> EVER
1986 2011-02-15 16:36:39 <Diablo-D3> its just asking for abuse.
1987 2011-02-15 16:36:59 <Diablo-D3> what happens if I control X? I use it to agree to Y's requests, and then just bankrupt Y.
1988 2011-02-15 16:37:07 <Diablo-D3> since X never sends to Y
1989 2011-02-15 16:37:10 <retsilex> but it should be each user's decission how he wants or not to automate withdrawals from HIS account, np?
1990 2011-02-15 16:37:12 <retsilex> no?
1991 2011-02-15 16:37:29 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: no, because we dont have some printer in the bankground printing new bills
1992 2011-02-15 16:37:31 <UukGoblin> retsilex, of course
1993 2011-02-15 16:37:34 <Diablo-D3> theres no FDIC for bitcoins.
1994 2011-02-15 16:37:36 <UukGoblin> retsilex, of course yes
1995 2011-02-15 16:37:54 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1996 2011-02-15 16:37:56 <Diablo-D3> so everyone who does business with Y, I just stole all their coins because Y was stupid enough to trust X.
1997 2011-02-15 16:38:01 <lfm> Diablo-D3: mybitcoin.com does instant credit now when it is txn between two mybitcoin users. you are saying you cant trust mybitcoin to do it? then bank is useless
1998 2011-02-15 16:38:14 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, because mybitcoin doesnt do ANY transfers
1999 2011-02-15 16:38:17 <UukGoblin> of course Y never had to trust X with anything
2000 2011-02-15 16:38:25 <UukGoblin> Y only trusted N
2001 2011-02-15 16:38:40 <Diablo-D3> lfm: go ahead, locally, create two accounts, and then send money from one to the other
2002 2011-02-15 16:38:56 <Diablo-D3> lfm: a new transaction is not pushed to the bitcoin chain because money didnt exchange hands
2003 2011-02-15 16:38:57 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: hm?  well if someone is stupid enough to allow his coins stolen, then well his loss and the thief gain... as in real world.  I can also get bitcoins you send by my hand, and then cheat you on delivery of the promised goods - same end result
2004 2011-02-15 16:39:00 <lfm> locally? at mybitcoin?
2005 2011-02-15 16:39:09 <Diablo-D3> lfm: locally as in your own bitcoin instance.
2006 2011-02-15 16:39:19 <Diablo-D3> lfm: sending money to an address you already own is a no-op.
2007 2011-02-15 16:39:27 mbarkhau has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2008 2011-02-15 16:39:53 <lfm> Diablo-D3: whats that got to do with mybitcoin.com?
2009 2011-02-15 16:39:57 <UukGoblin> yeah?
2010 2011-02-15 16:40:05 <Diablo-D3> lfm: mybitcoin is just a frontend to bitcoin
2011 2011-02-15 16:40:13 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2012 2011-02-15 16:40:15 <Diablo-D3> ALL these services, no matter what they do, just frontend bitcoin
2013 2011-02-15 16:40:16 nathan7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014 2011-02-15 16:40:32 <UukGoblin> one of their functions is that, yes
2015 2011-02-15 16:40:44 <Diablo-D3> lfm: so mybitcoin sending money to itself does nothing
2016 2011-02-15 16:40:53 <Diablo-D3> lfm: the money didnt go anywhere
2017 2011-02-15 16:40:55 <lfm> Diablo-D3: txn between mybitcoin.com users might not even show up on bitcoin block chain
2018 2011-02-15 16:41:03 <Diablo-D3> lfm: I already said that
2019 2011-02-15 16:41:04 * UukGoblin really stops now
2020 2011-02-15 16:41:07 <Diablo-D3> it WONT show up
2021 2011-02-15 16:41:08 larsig has joined
2022 2011-02-15 16:41:13 <Diablo-D3> because its not a transaction between users
2023 2011-02-15 16:41:15 molecular has joined
2024 2011-02-15 16:41:20 <ArtForz> stop feeding the troll ;)
2025 2011-02-15 16:41:37 <lfm> Diablo-D3: ok, so do the same thing bewteen two banks that trust each other. no problem
2026 2011-02-15 16:41:41 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, so, I'm X, I run M, and N doesnt know I run M
2027 2011-02-15 16:41:45 <retsilex> brilliand minds like us should exchange ideas =)
2028 2011-02-15 16:41:50 <Diablo-D3> I tell N to originate a pull request
2029 2011-02-15 16:41:56 <Diablo-D3> M says 'sure, I sent the money"
2030 2011-02-15 16:42:01 <Diablo-D3> then N credits me, X, the money
2031 2011-02-15 16:42:09 <Diablo-D3> I then withdraw all the money
2032 2011-02-15 16:42:13 <Diablo-D3> and M never sends it to N
2033 2011-02-15 16:42:31 <Diablo-D3> instantly crediting money _does not work, and never will_
2034 2011-02-15 16:42:32 <lfm> dont try pulls, push the money
2035 2011-02-15 16:42:32 <UukGoblin> congratulations
2036 2011-02-15 16:42:36 <Diablo-D3> it requires trusting central authorities
2037 2011-02-15 16:42:50 <Diablo-D3> lfm: Im describing why this is a bad idea.
2038 2011-02-15 16:42:57 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: not neseserly
2039 2011-02-15 16:42:59 <retsilex> there is other way
2040 2011-02-15 16:43:01 <UukGoblin> there are no 'central' authorities
2041 2011-02-15 16:43:06 <lfm> ya pulls are bad, pushes are no problem
2042 2011-02-15 16:43:08 <retsilex> build ripple-like system on top of bitcoin
2043 2011-02-15 16:43:13 * retsilex xelister pokes jgarzik
2044 2011-02-15 16:43:23 <Diablo-D3> mybitcoin and mgtox in this way are central authorities to each other
2045 2011-02-15 16:43:29 <retsilex> then your friends are authorities
2046 2011-02-15 16:43:44 <retsilex> also, you can have sevearl authorities - like 10. And start your own one too
2047 2011-02-15 16:43:50 <Diablo-D3> by allowing instant crediting, first or third parties can abuse this relationship
2048 2011-02-15 16:44:01 <Diablo-D3> the ONLY authority that can be trusted is bitcoin itself.
2049 2011-02-15 16:44:09 <lfm> Diablo-D3: you must trust your own bank, if not then it cant be done
2050 2011-02-15 16:44:10 <Diablo-D3> if my client doesnt say the transaction is confirmed, it never happened.
2051 2011-02-15 16:44:19 <Diablo-D3> lfm: its not that I trust _my_ bank
2052 2011-02-15 16:44:22 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, very simple solution to your problem: when N signs a contract with M, they secure the contract with a deposit. If N cheats on M, the M will hold the N's deposit. You can also arrange that you never trust the other party with more than the deposit's worth of money
2053 2011-02-15 16:44:26 <Diablo-D3> its that I have to trust my bank to NEVER implement this.
2054 2011-02-15 16:44:35 <welterde> Diablo-D3: how would you abuse if mybitcoin and mgtox trust each other?
2055 2011-02-15 16:44:44 <welterde> *abuse this system
2056 2011-02-15 16:45:01 <Diablo-D3> lfm: _any_ bank that allows instant crediting not only puts at risk every user of that bank, but any user of the entire currency
2057 2011-02-15 16:45:06 <welterde> *each other and instantly apply transactions between them, before they are confirmed
2058 2011-02-15 16:45:17 <lfm> if one bank reneges then ya there could be a problem
2059 2011-02-15 16:45:19 <Diablo-D3> the only ones that will immediately suffer are the ones who's bank got stolen from
2060 2011-02-15 16:45:20 serard has left ("Quitte")
2061 2011-02-15 16:45:28 <Diablo-D3> since the bank cannot cover the losses
2062 2011-02-15 16:45:48 <Diablo-D3> but people will stop using bitcoin altogether once this shit happens
2063 2011-02-15 16:45:54 <Diablo-D3> it wont happen over night, but it will happen
2064 2011-02-15 16:46:04 <Diablo-D3> such a system _is_ an attack on bitcoin
2065 2011-02-15 16:46:07 <Diablo-D3> and it should be rejected.
2066 2011-02-15 16:46:22 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, you're of course wrong
2067 2011-02-15 16:46:23 <retsilex> hm
2068 2011-02-15 16:46:36 andrew12 has joined
2069 2011-02-15 16:46:51 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, the exact thing can happen with mtgox or mybitcoin right now
2070 2011-02-15 16:47:00 <welterde> Diablo-D3: I myself see no way(when both implement the system properly)
2071 2011-02-15 16:47:03 <retsilex> mtgox can run with the money to maxico
2072 2011-02-15 16:47:07 MingusDew has quit (Quit: http://folding.stanford.edu/)
2073 2011-02-15 16:47:10 <UukGoblin> the mtgox guy can say 'fuck off everyone', and keep everyone's LR$ and bitcoins and shut the site down
2074 2011-02-15 16:47:12 <lfm> UukGoblin: still want to use bitcoin at the cash register and he doesnt wanna stand in line for an hour. Diablo-D3 is saying he should not try
2075 2011-02-15 16:47:31 <retsilex> lfm: lol
2076 2011-02-15 16:47:36 <retsilex> sex 4 bitcoin !
2077 2011-02-15 16:47:41 <retsilex> - get naked
2078 2011-02-15 16:47:42 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|whoops, forgot to use chrome instead of ie
2079 2011-02-15 16:47:46 andrew12 has quit (school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|Client Quit)
2080 2011-02-15 16:47:47 <retsilex> - execute payment from mobile phone
2081 2011-02-15 16:47:55 <retsilex> - wait 30 confirmations
2082 2011-02-15 16:47:57 <retsilex> - get blown
2083 2011-02-15 16:47:59 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, so according to what you said you shouldn't be using their services
2084 2011-02-15 16:48:23 andrew12 has joined
2085 2011-02-15 16:48:30 <andrew12> school!d8241fa2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.36.31.162|yay
2086 2011-02-15 16:48:36 <edcba> anyway if you want fast transfer like i said limit address creation and assign them some trust
2087 2011-02-15 16:48:54 * UukGoblin breaks hands
2088 2011-02-15 16:48:54 <lfm> retsilex: yup long slow lineup in the alley
2089 2011-02-15 16:49:04 <UukGoblin> *facepalm*
2090 2011-02-15 16:49:25 <Diablo-D3> [11:39:58] <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, the exact thing can happen with mtgox or mybitcoin right now
2091 2011-02-15 16:49:31 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: so we should not use mtgox? they can run with money too
2092 2011-02-15 16:49:38 <Diablo-D3> only if mtgox does it themselves
2093 2011-02-15 16:49:45 * edcba try mybitcoin...
2094 2011-02-15 16:49:53 <lfm> or mybitcoin
2095 2011-02-15 16:50:06 <Diablo-D3> but if someone does it to mgtox (or mgtox does it to mybitcoin), then people will start thinking bitcoin cant be trusted
2096 2011-02-15 16:50:11 <Diablo-D3> even though bitcoin had NOTHING to do with it
2097 2011-02-15 16:50:30 <Diablo-D3> [11:40:19] <lfm> UukGoblin: still want to use bitcoin at the cash register and he doesnt wanna stand in line for an hour. Diablo-D3 is saying he should not try
2098 2011-02-15 16:50:42 <Diablo-D3> what keeps the real world banking system running is a series of legal agreements and laws
2099 2011-02-15 16:50:46 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, then they'll be wrong, period.
2100 2011-02-15 16:50:48 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin does not have such things
2101 2011-02-15 16:50:55 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: wrong or not, this is what they will believe
2102 2011-02-15 16:50:59 <UukGoblin> so?
2103 2011-02-15 16:51:02 <lfm> well I think if a bank goes belly up people dont always blame the currency
2104 2011-02-15 16:51:04 <Diablo-D3> and once someone believes something, you cannot convince them otherwise
2105 2011-02-15 16:51:04 <UukGoblin> doesn't mean you shouldn't do it
2106 2011-02-15 16:51:21 <Diablo-D3> lfm: people DID blame the government when all the banks closed during the depression
2107 2011-02-15 16:51:43 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin _doesnt_ have an fdic
2108 2011-02-15 16:51:49 <Diablo-D3> we cant afford to have shit blow up
2109 2011-02-15 16:51:56 <retsilex> to do any transaction you need legal afreements, like "give me 100 btc, I will blow you". Even if the "pay 100 btc" part is without agreement sort of, the delivery part "I will blow you" needs legal agreement.  So bitcoin anyway needs trust of the person you buy for
2110 2011-02-15 16:51:57 <lfm> if all the banks go broke then there could well be a problem with the whole economy
2111 2011-02-15 16:52:01 <retsilex> *you trade with
2112 2011-02-15 16:52:18 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: yes, but I only gave my trust to ONE bank
2113 2011-02-15 16:52:24 <edcba> hmm mybitcoin waits for confirmation before you can send payment it seems
2114 2011-02-15 16:52:27 <UukGoblin> of course legal shit would have to adapt for such bitcoin contracts to work
2115 2011-02-15 16:52:27 andrew12 is now known as school!d8241fa2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.36.31.162|andrew12[mac]
2116 2011-02-15 16:52:31 <Diablo-D3> if another bank screws the bank I gave mt trust to, that is a violation of trust
2117 2011-02-15 16:52:39 andrew12[mac] is now known as andrew12|school
2118 2011-02-15 16:52:43 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin itself implements a system where I need to trust no one to move money
2119 2011-02-15 16:52:52 <Diablo-D3> since the system itself functions correctly and cannot be tampered with
2120 2011-02-15 16:53:20 andrew12 is now known as school!d8241fa2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.36.31.162|andrew12^school
2121 2011-02-15 16:53:22 <lfm> well short of the 51% power thing
2122 2011-02-15 16:53:25 BlueMatt has joined
2123 2011-02-15 16:53:30 <Diablo-D3> well yeah, but I believe thats infeasable
2124 2011-02-15 16:53:51 <Diablo-D3> and the larger bitcoin gets the harder that attack is
2125 2011-02-15 16:53:59 <retsilex> how about many bookkeeping-account systems
2126 2011-02-15 16:54:01 <welterde> Diablo-D3: other banks can only screw you once.. when they do that your trust in them is gone (if you are one ank)
2127 2011-02-15 16:54:02 <retsilex> not 1 central
2128 2011-02-15 16:54:03 <Diablo-D3> and its not 51% of the entire cluster... its 51% of the best interconnected nodes
2129 2011-02-15 16:54:03 <retsilex> but many
2130 2011-02-15 16:54:20 <Diablo-D3> you cannot identify who is who
2131 2011-02-15 16:54:27 <Diablo-D3> since most of the cluster is dark from the rest of the cluster
2132 2011-02-15 16:54:32 <Diablo-D3> and you cant easily tell where you are
2133 2011-02-15 16:54:36 <Diablo-D3> you'd basically need 75% of the nodes
2134 2011-02-15 16:54:40 <lfm> I think pretty close to all nodes are interconnected pretty well
2135 2011-02-15 16:54:42 <Diablo-D3> just to a guarantee you're close
2136 2011-02-15 16:54:49 <Diablo-D3> lfm: thats also another problem
2137 2011-02-15 16:54:53 <Diablo-D3> some really are.
2138 2011-02-15 16:55:01 <Diablo-D3> so you cant outrun the communications
2139 2011-02-15 16:55:05 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2140 2011-02-15 16:55:06 <edcba> fucking bitcoin confirmation
2141 2011-02-15 16:55:08 <edcba> that's too long
2142 2011-02-15 16:55:10 <andrew12^school> heh
2143 2011-02-15 16:55:11 <Diablo-D3> so most of the time you're going to lose
2144 2011-02-15 16:55:16 <Diablo-D3> now
2145 2011-02-15 16:55:19 <Diablo-D3> what I said last year was
2146 2011-02-15 16:55:24 <Diablo-D3> confirmations take too long
2147 2011-02-15 16:55:35 <retsilex> people want instant confirmations for some cases
2148 2011-02-15 16:55:36 <Diablo-D3> as in, a new block every 10 minutes? why not every 30 seconds.
2149 2011-02-15 16:55:52 <andrew12^school> because then there would be way too many blocks
2150 2011-02-15 16:55:57 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: yes, but implementing a system that cannot be trusted doesnt work.
2151 2011-02-15 16:56:01 <retsilex> now people can have 1 second payment - move your card near to cashier and done.  faster then money, faster then credit card
2152 2011-02-15 16:56:06 <andrew12^school> plus it takes more than 30 seconds for the transactions to get around the network
2153 2011-02-15 16:56:20 <ArtForz> no it doesnt
2154 2011-02-15 16:56:21 <edcba> andrew12^school: how many time ?
2155 2011-02-15 16:56:26 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, of course it works, look around you. There's SHITLOADS of systems that cannot be trusted.
2156 2011-02-15 16:56:30 <UukGoblin> and guess what - they all work!
2157 2011-02-15 16:56:34 <andrew12^school> well it might if there's a lot of people using tor
2158 2011-02-15 16:56:43 <retsilex> UukGoblin: like government, church
2159 2011-02-15 16:56:44 <welterde> ArtForz: it can... maybe not currently..
2160 2011-02-15 16:56:47 <edcba> lol tor is slow but not that slow
2161 2011-02-15 16:56:47 <retsilex> schools system
2162 2011-02-15 16:56:52 <lfm> well cutting down the 10 min is like slowing down the whole net makes it easier to f**k with
2163 2011-02-15 16:57:00 <andrew12^school> lfm: exactly
2164 2011-02-15 16:57:07 <ArtForz> hey, let's just state random shit as fact, then change the claim when we get called out
2165 2011-02-15 16:57:10 <edcba> if every client would wait 1s to deliver tx
2166 2011-02-15 16:57:14 larsig has joined
2167 2011-02-15 16:57:24 <andrew12^school> plus there'd be more than 21 million bitcoins
2168 2011-02-15 16:57:26 <andrew12^school> :p
2169 2011-02-15 16:57:34 <edcba> you'd still potentially reach 8**15 nodes in 15 seconds
2170 2011-02-15 16:57:38 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, ok! you first
2171 2011-02-15 16:57:50 <ArtForz> actually, every client waits 0.1s
2172 2011-02-15 16:58:07 <welterde> edcba: it adds up..
2173 2011-02-15 16:58:08 <retsilex> RANDOM SHIT AS FAST
2174 2011-02-15 16:58:11 <ArtForz> so that'd be 8**150 nodes in 15 seconds ...
2175 2011-02-15 16:58:29 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, ;-)
2176 2011-02-15 16:58:36 <retsilex> Christian church approves 12 yo sex, e.g. in their own Vatican City, while they go full moral panic mode elsewhere, lol!
2177 2011-02-15 16:58:37 <andrew12^school> plus network latency!
2178 2011-02-15 16:58:43 <retsilex> no wait.. that is actually a true fact
2179 2011-02-15 16:58:48 <lfm> Diablo-D3: well we were assuming mybitcoin and mygox could trust each other, you are assuming they cannot it seems so of course we come to different conclusions
2180 2011-02-15 16:58:49 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: banks cannot be trusted, yes
2181 2011-02-15 16:58:53 <welterde> edcba: the route from here to another server of mine is 800ms RTT(that's not tor or anything..)
2182 2011-02-15 16:58:53 <Diablo-D3> but there is a system to clean up the mess
2183 2011-02-15 16:58:58 <Diablo-D3> there is no FDIC for bitcoin.
2184 2011-02-15 16:59:00 <Diablo-D3> period.
2185 2011-02-15 16:59:03 <andrew12^school> period.
2186 2011-02-15 16:59:03 <ArtForz> well, not quite, check the freenet papers for actual formula for spread of messages over random-connected networks
2187 2011-02-15 16:59:06 <Diablo-D3> now, Im not saying there cant be one
2188 2011-02-15 16:59:09 <edcba> welterde: it's still <1s
2189 2011-02-15 16:59:15 <retsilex> WINDOWS IS MORE SECURE THEN LINUX </random shit as fact>
2190 2011-02-15 16:59:17 <Diablo-D3> I would like to see one if UukGoblin wants his shit to work
2191 2011-02-15 16:59:26 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2192 2011-02-15 16:59:30 <Diablo-D3> but banks would have to be willing to pay large sums for that insurance
2193 2011-02-15 16:59:32 <Diablo-D3> which is expensive.
2194 2011-02-15 16:59:39 <andrew12^school> APPLE WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD </more random shit as fact>
2195 2011-02-15 16:59:53 <welterde> edcba: yes.. but once aren't connected to everyone else the tx might have to take more than one bitcoin hop
2196 2011-02-15 16:59:54 <Diablo-D3> andrew12^school: they already did
2197 2011-02-15 17:00:00 <andrew12^school> dun dun dun
2198 2011-02-15 17:00:03 <welterde> *anyone else
2199 2011-02-15 17:00:05 cane9 has joined
2200 2011-02-15 17:00:05 <retsilex> andrew12^school: they took over fagsworld
2201 2011-02-15 17:00:09 <welterde> *anyone else anymore
2202 2011-02-15 17:00:10 <Diablo-D3> andrew12^school: steve jobs is a member of the secret jew orderrrrr!!!!1111oneoneleven
2203 2011-02-15 17:00:13 <ArtForz> welterde: errr. so?
2204 2011-02-15 17:00:15 <edcba> welterde: i said 8**15 in 15 seconds
2205 2011-02-15 17:00:17 <cane9> hai
2206 2011-02-15 17:00:22 <andrew12^school> GOOGLE WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD </MORE random shit as fact>
2207 2011-02-15 17:00:24 <edcba> that's entire network
2208 2011-02-15 17:00:30 cane9 is now known as Guest26086
2209 2011-02-15 17:00:32 <lfm> yup before we know it all these banks will have as many fees as local currency banks
2210 2011-02-15 17:00:33 <ArtForz> unless EVERYONE has ONLY slow-ass links, average spread will still be fast
2211 2011-02-15 17:00:34 <Diablo-D3> andrew12^school: now that I can honestly say no
2212 2011-02-15 17:00:39 <andrew12^school> Diablo-D3: haha
2213 2011-02-15 17:00:40 <retsilex> edcba: bullshit, since some peers are in common
2214 2011-02-15 17:00:46 <Diablo-D3> andrew12^school: they merely want to run the world, they dont want to take it over
2215 2011-02-15 17:00:56 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, funny. Earlier you said that the only way it could work was to use your locking algorithm. Now you're saying that it would only work with a FDIC.
2216 2011-02-15 17:00:57 <Diablo-D3> and half the internet exists just because of google
2217 2011-02-15 17:01:01 <andrew12^school> if they run it then they already have taken it over
2218 2011-02-15 17:01:02 <ArtForz> again, freenet papers have actual formula for that
2219 2011-02-15 17:01:06 <Guest26086> need moar bitcoins why my quad core i7 can't generate any at all in 4 days?
2220 2011-02-15 17:01:13 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: my way is NOT a solution to your problem
2221 2011-02-15 17:01:14 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, and even before that you said that it couldn't work at all
2222 2011-02-15 17:01:16 <edcba> ok what is depth of network ?
2223 2011-02-15 17:01:18 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: I mean, my FDIC idea
2224 2011-02-15 17:01:23 <retsilex> Guest26086: mining on CPU will take months or years.  Use a Radeon instead.
2225 2011-02-15 17:01:25 <ArtForz> "not much"
2226 2011-02-15 17:01:29 <edcba> why the fuck there is no TTL in bitcoin messages
2227 2011-02-15 17:01:30 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: the FDIC would only clean up the mess after yours fails.
2228 2011-02-15 17:01:35 <lfm> edcba: depth?
2229 2011-02-15 17:01:38 <Guest26086> retsilex: can i do that on linuks?
2230 2011-02-15 17:01:41 <welterde> edcba: no need
2231 2011-02-15 17:01:41 <Diablo-D3> edcba: because the TTL is the entire cluster
2232 2011-02-15 17:01:46 <ArtForz> maximum hop count I think
2233 2011-02-15 17:01:48 <welterde> (I guess)
2234 2011-02-15 17:01:48 <andrew12^school> retsilex: or beg tons of people to shut off their radeons!
2235 2011-02-15 17:01:52 <retsilex> Guest26086: yes, use diablo miner.  what radeon do you have?
2236 2011-02-15 17:01:55 <edcba> welterde: TTL could avoid ddos
2237 2011-02-15 17:01:57 <UukGoblin> my protocol wouldn't fail, it's the bank that would
2238 2011-02-15 17:02:01 <Diablo-D3> TTL == time to live == max hop count
2239 2011-02-15 17:02:02 <welterde> edcba: uh.. no?
2240 2011-02-15 17:02:12 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: but your protocol introduces a method to make banks fail
2241 2011-02-15 17:02:13 <lfm> edcba: bitcoin messages are point to point.
2242 2011-02-15 17:02:21 <welterde> (at least not when it's implemented I would implement it)
2243 2011-02-15 17:02:26 <welterde> *the way I would
2244 2011-02-15 17:02:32 <Guest26086> erHD5800
2245 2011-02-15 17:02:34 <edcba> i know how they are right now
2246 2011-02-15 17:02:37 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, that's entirely unrelated, there's already many methods at which they can fail
2247 2011-02-15 17:02:38 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, group broadcast, and the group broadcasts messages to members you arent directly connected to
2248 2011-02-15 17:02:46 <Guest26086> retsilex: HD5800
2249 2011-02-15 17:02:46 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: yes, but they cant fail in a way that damages bitcoin
2250 2011-02-15 17:02:51 <retsilex> Guest26086: cool.
2251 2011-02-15 17:02:54 <retsilex> Guest26086: do you use jabber?
2252 2011-02-15 17:02:57 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, also a user of such system wouldn't have to enable such transactions, and the bank could leave the choice to them
2253 2011-02-15 17:03:07 <Guest26086> retsilex: do you know where i can get this diablo miner for linuks?
2254 2011-02-15 17:03:10 <retsilex> Guest26086: contact me on xelist@jabber.org  if you want about the installation
2255 2011-02-15 17:03:10 <Guest26086> retsilex: sure why?
2256 2011-02-15 17:03:15 <Guest26086> ah
2257 2011-02-15 17:03:16 <Guest26086> k
2258 2011-02-15 17:03:23 <UukGoblin> and then the damage would only go to users who enabled the feature and used it
2259 2011-02-15 17:03:28 <Diablo-D3> Guest26086: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0;all
2260 2011-02-15 17:03:31 <andrew12^school> america runs on dunkin /channel
2261 2011-02-15 17:03:37 <UukGoblin> not to any bloody whole bitcoin at all
2262 2011-02-15 17:03:39 <welterde> edcba: ah.. nvm.. not even required..
2263 2011-02-15 17:03:42 <retsilex> Guest26086: you can install this all (it should take 1 hour - 2 days depending... on luck) . diablo miner git, install ati driers and so on
2264 2011-02-15 17:03:53 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: except if two banks nuke each other, then bitcoin itself will be deemed unsafe
2265 2011-02-15 17:04:01 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: because users are quite dumb when they're afraid
2266 2011-02-15 17:04:09 <Diablo-D3> logic is not often employed by people
2267 2011-02-15 17:04:10 <Guest26086> retsilex: i have fglrx afaik
2268 2011-02-15 17:04:19 <UukGoblin> so go nuke mtgox's and mybitcoin servers
2269 2011-02-15 17:04:22 <UukGoblin> same result
2270 2011-02-15 17:04:28 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: no, because they didnt nuke each other
2271 2011-02-15 17:04:29 <welterde> edcba: The tx is stored on receive and not sent a second time when receiving it a second time..
2272 2011-02-15 17:04:39 <edcba> hopefully lol
2273 2011-02-15 17:04:44 <edcba> but ttl would allow stats
2274 2011-02-15 17:05:04 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: theres no frontpage slashdot report about how someone walked away with $1.2 million in BTC because of your big idea
2275 2011-02-15 17:05:05 <welterde> yeah.. but also would help to locate the origin of an tx
2276 2011-02-15 17:05:10 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, what "no"? of course it's the same result - people lose trust in bitcoin cause they're stupid
2277 2011-02-15 17:05:12 <Guest26086> well, bainow
2278 2011-02-15 17:05:13 Guest26086 has left ()
2279 2011-02-15 17:05:18 <Diablo-D3> edcba: ttl stats would allow people to map out cluster shape
2280 2011-02-15 17:05:20 <ArtForz> well, dont use it for tx then
2281 2011-02-15 17:05:21 <Diablo-D3> edcba: not sure if want
2282 2011-02-15 17:05:32 <edcba> :/
2283 2011-02-15 17:05:39 <retsilex> Diablo-D3:
2284 2011-02-15 17:05:44 <retsilex> can you say clearly
2285 2011-02-15 17:05:44 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: no, they'd merely blame it on mtgox and mybitcoin
2286 2011-02-15 17:05:50 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2287 2011-02-15 17:05:53 <retsilex> what do you gight against? against what use case.
2288 2011-02-15 17:05:55 <ArtForz> I can! "clearly"
2289 2011-02-15 17:05:59 <UukGoblin> lololol
2290 2011-02-15 17:06:00 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: if they used a violation in the protocol you designed, they'd think that protocol is part of bitcoin because many banks use it
2291 2011-02-15 17:06:02 <retsilex> >P_>
2292 2011-02-15 17:06:14 <welterde> edcba: and even when you don't store the message you don't have to use an TTL field
2293 2011-02-15 17:06:15 <UukGoblin> buahahah
2294 2011-02-15 17:06:25 <welterde> (you probably want an UID field though)
2295 2011-02-15 17:06:39 <lfm> Diablo-D3: thats like saying visa is part of US dollar
2296 2011-02-15 17:06:43 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2297 2011-02-15 17:06:53 <edcba> uid is no use since you can generate how many you want
2298 2011-02-15 17:06:57 CyanDynamo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2299 2011-02-15 17:06:59 CyanDynamo1 has joined
2300 2011-02-15 17:07:06 <welterde> edcba: what I would have done(when the tx weren't stored locally) is run incoming message through an bloom filter
2301 2011-02-15 17:07:24 <welterde> duplicate messages just get filtered out
2302 2011-02-15 17:07:44 <welterde> and when you want sent duplicate messages on purpose you just have to change the UID field of the message
2303 2011-02-15 17:07:45 <Diablo-D3> lfm: it IS part of the us dollar by that usage.
2304 2011-02-15 17:07:53 <Diablo-D3> lfm: all the major banks belong to visa.
2305 2011-02-15 17:08:02 <Diablo-D3> lfm: almost all our currency moves through the transaction system
2306 2011-02-15 17:08:30 <welterde> edcba: that's ok, since you want to allow one person to send as messages as he wants
2307 2011-02-15 17:08:31 <lfm> well some are master card and visa is not limited to us$ but you have a point
2308 2011-02-15 17:08:38 <retsilex> ArtForz: 6xxx have other speed on same clock*cores ?  if yes then by what factor?  copared to 5700 and above
2309 2011-02-15 17:08:45 <Diablo-D3> lfm: most of our currency that is held in a bank is held by 5 banks, these 5 banks are the major members of visa, mastercard, and also have half the seats on the Federal Reserve
2310 2011-02-15 17:08:49 <edcba> hmm my bitcoin waits for 1/unconfirmed ?
2311 2011-02-15 17:08:51 <ArtForz> very slightly higher
2312 2011-02-15 17:09:03 <retsilex> ArtForz: even lower from 6xxx series?
2313 2011-02-15 17:09:12 <ArtForz> err.. no
2314 2011-02-15 17:09:24 <ArtForz> I mean, 6970 is pretty exactly as fast as 5870 for me
2315 2011-02-15 17:09:26 <Diablo-D3> lfm: so yes, the whole banking industry is part of our dollar.
2316 2011-02-15 17:09:40 <ArtForz> yet by core*mhz it should be 0.7% slower
2317 2011-02-15 17:09:44 <Diablo-D3> lfm: and we already have a real life example of this
2318 2011-02-15 17:09:56 <Diablo-D3> during the depression people pulled money out of banks and put them in safes and matresses and shit
2319 2011-02-15 17:10:02 * edcba is not far from mybitcoin transaction took less than 30s to come back :)
2320 2011-02-15 17:10:05 <retsilex> ArtForz: 6950 .. would you recommend it?  instead of 5870
2321 2011-02-15 17:10:20 <ArtForz> well... for 3D, yes, for mining.. no
2322 2011-02-15 17:10:43 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: 6xxx is useless for mining
2323 2011-02-15 17:10:46 <ArtForz> you need sdk2.3 for 69xx, which has broken OpenCL multigpu support
2324 2011-02-15 17:10:51 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: you're stuck with sdk 2.2 or 2.3, which is shit
2325 2011-02-15 17:10:54 <Diablo-D3> its slow as fuck
2326 2011-02-15 17:11:01 <lfm> Diablo-D3: and I expect for certain uses (like for quick transactions) there will be other institutions which will step in to provides those services whether you or I like it or not
2327 2011-02-15 17:11:04 <retsilex> and 69xx are multicore?
2328 2011-02-15 17:11:05 <ArtForz> so unless you have a CAL miner, 69xx sucks ...
2329 2011-02-15 17:11:07 <ArtForz> no
2330 2011-02-15 17:11:10 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes, there will be
2331 2011-02-15 17:11:13 satamusic has joined
2332 2011-02-15 17:11:14 <ArtForz> but who wants to run only one card?
2333 2011-02-15 17:11:23 <retsilex> ArtForz: give me your CAL miner
2334 2011-02-15 17:11:39 <retsilex> ArtForz: you want to give me your CAL miner. Republican credits will do fine
2335 2011-02-15 17:12:03 andrew12^school has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2336 2011-02-15 17:12:59 <retsilex> is sdk 2.2 (for 6870) really slower then sdk 2.1?
2337 2011-02-15 17:13:17 satamusic has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2338 2011-02-15 17:13:23 <ArtForz> no, we're just making up random crap
2339 2011-02-15 17:13:34 <retsilex> <_<
2340 2011-02-15 17:13:39 <UukGoblin> :-D
2341 2011-02-15 17:13:57 <retsilex> I ment, do you confirm ArtForz that even just 6870 also slows down too much because of shitty sdk
2342 2011-02-15 17:14:01 <lfm> its irc, it would be something else if there wasnt people making up random crap
2343 2011-02-15 17:14:03 <retsilex> ok then :|  5870 it is
2344 2011-02-15 17:14:10 <ArtForz> yea
2345 2011-02-15 17:14:38 <retsilex> ati sucks cocks
2346 2011-02-15 17:14:44 <ArtForz> news at 11.
2347 2011-02-15 17:14:46 * retsilex is amazed by Ati's fucking incopetence
2348 2011-02-15 17:15:02 <retsilex> but why Amd still didn't got them in shape?!  6xxx are Amd's fault too
2349 2011-02-15 17:15:19 <ArtForz> dude, they're ATI
2350 2011-02-15 17:15:28 <ArtForz> AMD does chips, not miracles
2351 2011-02-15 17:15:35 <lfm> i dont think amd has had any effect on ati yet
2352 2011-02-15 17:15:46 <ArtForz> well, they did
2353 2011-02-15 17:15:55 <retsilex> whip them
2354 2011-02-15 17:16:05 <retsilex> whip them like belrusconnis hookers in his love chamber
2355 2011-02-15 17:16:09 <retsilex> >_>
2356 2011-02-15 17:16:22 <Kiba> wowzer
2357 2011-02-15 17:16:23 <retsilex> they could be like
2358 2011-02-15 17:16:29 <Kiba> 52 active users on the forum
2359 2011-02-15 17:16:31 <ArtForz> without AMD we still wouldnt have 2D accel on r6/7xx in Xorg radeon driver
2360 2011-02-15 17:16:38 <retsilex> FIX YOUR FUCKING SHIT NOOBS OR YOU ARE ALL FIRED ON MONEY LOL
2361 2011-02-15 17:16:48 <retsilex> and then fire 20 bright minds in their place
2362 2011-02-15 17:16:50 <retsilex> *hire
2363 2011-02-15 17:16:51 <molecular> ;;seen Diablo-D3
2364 2011-02-15 17:16:52 <gribble> Diablo-D3 was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 5 minutes and 41 seconds ago: <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes, there will be
2365 2011-02-15 17:16:56 <luke-jr> ArtForz: nonsense
2366 2011-02-15 17:16:56 larsig has joined
2367 2011-02-15 17:16:56 <retsilex> or fire/hire untill it works
2368 2011-02-15 17:17:03 nathan7 has joined
2369 2011-02-15 17:17:04 <luke-jr> ArtForz: ATi was releasing specs *before* AMD bought them
2370 2011-02-15 17:17:37 <luke-jr> retsilex: 2.2 isn't slower, but it does eat CPU time
2371 2011-02-15 17:17:57 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: 6970 should be 15% faster than 5870
2372 2011-02-15 17:17:58 <Diablo-D3> but its not
2373 2011-02-15 17:18:03 <Diablo-D3> because the sdk fucks you over
2374 2011-02-15 17:18:31 <retsilex> Ati fucked Amd over haha
2375 2011-02-15 17:18:33 <Diablo-D3> they're otherwise very nice chips
2376 2011-02-15 17:18:34 <retsilex> here are the specs
2377 2011-02-15 17:18:38 <glassresistor> anyone know how long i should expect to wait for money from a bitcoinmarket trade will appear in moneybroker?  its been afew hours since the trade happened
2378 2011-02-15 17:18:39 <retsilex> yes, OF COURSE all this things work
2379 2011-02-15 17:18:40 <Diablo-D3> and yeah, ati did fuck amd
2380 2011-02-15 17:18:43 <retsilex> no bugs! I promise
2381 2011-02-15 17:18:44 <retsilex> :>
2382 2011-02-15 17:18:48 <Diablo-D3> amd shipped sdk 2.2 and 2.3
2383 2011-02-15 17:18:52 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2384 2011-02-15 17:18:53 <Diablo-D3> but its shit ati wrote thats fucking it up
2385 2011-02-15 17:19:00 <Diablo-D3> amd can only rewrite them so fast
2386 2011-02-15 17:19:04 <ArtForz> ATI released first specs in september '07
2387 2011-02-15 17:19:05 <retsilex> I ment fore they bought them lol
2388 2011-02-15 17:19:17 <Diablo-D3> everytime AMD adds a new feature
2389 2011-02-15 17:19:20 <Diablo-D3> something else breaks
2390 2011-02-15 17:19:20 <retsilex> look we are so sexy take us.. take us now.. fuck our stock with your big throbbing wallet
2391 2011-02-15 17:19:24 <Diablo-D3> because of undocumented bullshit
2392 2011-02-15 17:19:26 <ArtForz> they were bought by AMD ... october '06
2393 2011-02-15 17:19:32 <glassresistor> has anyone gotten the new ati cards like the 5700s to work in linux with bitcoin?  i could never get the opencl headers to work
2394 2011-02-15 17:19:38 <Diablo-D3> and ati NEVER released specs
2395 2011-02-15 17:19:39 <Diablo-D3> amd did
2396 2011-02-15 17:19:45 <Diablo-D3> ati didnt believe in open source
2397 2011-02-15 17:19:47 <Diablo-D3> amd thrives on it
2398 2011-02-15 17:19:51 <ArtForz> so your definition of "before" is "over 1 year later" ?
2399 2011-02-15 17:19:53 <glassresistor> nvidia worked no problem but id much rather use ati, much cheaper per stream proc
2400 2011-02-15 17:19:57 <retsilex> can't amd fire this noobs and hire lots of devels to write drivers from scratch, with documentaiton this time
2401 2011-02-15 17:20:01 <Diablo-D3> amd didnt just do a 180
2402 2011-02-15 17:20:05 <Diablo-D3> they did a 720
2403 2011-02-15 17:20:10 <lfm> glassresistor: yes 5770 here
2404 2011-02-15 17:20:22 <Diablo-D3> and then did a rail grind
2405 2011-02-15 17:20:28 <ArtForz> 57xxs arent exactly... new
2406 2011-02-15 17:20:32 <glassresistor> lfm: do you remember what you did? im running ubuntu 10.10
2407 2011-02-15 17:20:55 <retsilex> yes we <3 Amd.  So Amd really can't restart the drivers for Radeons?
2408 2011-02-15 17:21:01 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: they did
2409 2011-02-15 17:21:04 <lfm> glassresistor: ya do virgin install of 10.10 then DO NOT APPLY update patches
2410 2011-02-15 17:21:10 <Diablo-D3> catalyst drivers are almost brand new
2411 2011-02-15 17:21:14 <ArtForz> for ubuntu... install non-sucky fglrx driver. install sdk. run miner. ???. profit!
2412 2011-02-15 17:21:18 KBme has joined
2413 2011-02-15 17:21:23 <retsilex> or, Amd could pay like 50 open source developers to make awesome open source driver that is BETTER then binary - supoorts OpenCL and all
2414 2011-02-15 17:21:32 <glassresistor> lfm: what update patches?
2415 2011-02-15 17:21:33 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: THEY ARE PAYING 50 DEVELOPERS YOU IDIOT
2416 2011-02-15 17:21:48 <Diablo-D3> why do you think all this code is being shit out from xorg, mesa, and gallium?
2417 2011-02-15 17:21:53 <glassresistor> lfm: i installed 10.10 from scratch
2418 2011-02-15 17:21:53 <KBme> hai
2419 2011-02-15 17:21:58 <Diablo-D3> AMD is paying for the whole thing
2420 2011-02-15 17:21:59 <retsilex> so why there is no fucking OpenCL in opensource driver
2421 2011-02-15 17:21:59 <glassresistor> no dist upgrade
2422 2011-02-15 17:21:59 <lfm> glassresistor: "apt-get upgrade"
2423 2011-02-15 17:22:01 satamusic has joined
2424 2011-02-15 17:22:06 <retsilex> then hire 50 MORE developers to write OpenCL shit
2425 2011-02-15 17:22:06 <ArtForz> as ubuntu repo fglrx drivers are broken pre-release versions :/
2426 2011-02-15 17:22:14 <molecular> Diablo-D3, what with this: Exception in thread "DiabloMiner Executor (Cypress (#1)/2)" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.lwjgl.opencl.CLKernel.setArg(ILorg/lwjgl/opencl/CLObject;)Lorg/lwjgl/opencl/CLKernel; ?
2427 2011-02-15 17:22:19 <KBme> i get this error with diablominer: http://pastie.org/1567110
2428 2011-02-15 17:22:19 <glassresistor> lfm: your saying i can't upgrade anything?
2429 2011-02-15 17:22:43 <Diablo-D3> molecular: its because ubuntu sucks.
2430 2011-02-15 17:22:49 <lfm> glassresistor: there was something that broke when I tried to upgrade. not sure exactly what
2431 2011-02-15 17:22:54 <molecular> Diablo-D3, well, gentoo here... how to resolve this issue?
2432 2011-02-15 17:22:59 <Diablo-D3> okay
2433 2011-02-15 17:23:02 <Diablo-D3> its because ATI sucks
2434 2011-02-15 17:23:05 <molecular> :)
2435 2011-02-15 17:23:06 <Diablo-D3> and AMD is suffering from it
2436 2011-02-15 17:23:36 <glassresistor> lfm: hum that doesn't sound very appealing
2437 2011-02-15 17:23:39 <molecular> Diablo-D3, mvn downloaded lwjgl-native-2.7.1.jar after I did "git pull"
2438 2011-02-15 17:23:50 <glassresistor> lfm: what driver packages did you install?
2439 2011-02-15 17:24:01 <lfm> glassresistor: just did install of drivers and sdk from ati, ya I know thats the only way I could get it to work tho
2440 2011-02-15 17:24:11 <CIA-63> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r0e31996 / pom.xml : Go back to LWJGL 2.6 - http://bit.ly/hEIqkW
2441 2011-02-15 17:24:26 <lfm> glassresistor: drivers version 10-12 and sdk 2.1
2442 2011-02-15 17:24:30 <retsilex> nanotube: can we plase put "Ati drivers are shit (but NVidia is slow)" in topic =)
2443 2011-02-15 17:24:34 <glassresistor> lfm: so you got the drivers from tha ati website not apt
2444 2011-02-15 17:24:36 <molecular> Diablo-D3, can I go back to lwjgl 2.6 ?
2445 2011-02-15 17:24:39 <KBme> is there a list of dependencies of diablominer somewhere?
2446 2011-02-15 17:24:43 <lfm> glassresistor: yes
2447 2011-02-15 17:24:55 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: you're a faggot
2448 2011-02-15 17:24:57 <Diablo-D3> ati drivers arent shit
2449 2011-02-15 17:25:05 <Diablo-D3> nvidia couldnt even run my miner until late last year
2450 2011-02-15 17:25:10 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: you're sister is a living profe I'm not
2451 2011-02-15 17:25:11 <retsilex> >_>
2452 2011-02-15 17:25:15 <Diablo-D3> so shove that up your ass
2453 2011-02-15 17:25:49 <retsilex> ati drivers are not shit?  Now you are just trolling, Diablo-D3
2454 2011-02-15 17:26:00 <Diablo-D3> compared to nvidia? they're the cure for cancer
2455 2011-02-15 17:26:05 <retsilex> no
2456 2011-02-15 17:26:10 <retsilex> they are worse x100 then nvidia driver
2457 2011-02-15 17:26:16 <retsilex> nvidia: freeze 1 per month+
2458 2011-02-15 17:26:16 <molecular> why did Diablo-D3 switch to 2.71 lwjgl. what's better and why does it not work?
2459 2011-02-15 17:26:20 <Diablo-D3> [12:18:11] <Diablo-D3> nvidia couldnt even run my miner until late last year
2460 2011-02-15 17:26:24 <Diablo-D3> [12:18:11] <Diablo-D3> nvidia couldnt even run my miner until late last year
2461 2011-02-15 17:26:25 <Diablo-D3> [12:18:11] <Diablo-D3> nvidia couldnt even run my miner until late last year
2462 2011-02-15 17:26:25 <Diablo-D3> [12:18:11] <Diablo-D3> nvidia couldnt even run my miner until late last year
2463 2011-02-15 17:26:25 <Diablo-D3> [12:18:11] <Diablo-D3> nvidia couldnt even run my miner until late last year
2464 2011-02-15 17:26:27 <lfm> retsilex: they arnt very good but you still cant flush em down a toilet
2465 2011-02-15 17:26:38 <retsilex> readeon (3 cards, on 4 computers): FREEZE BOX EVERY 1-2 DAYS especially on multidisplay
2466 2011-02-15 17:26:43 <Diablo-D3> what part of ITS BROKEN dont you get?
2467 2011-02-15 17:26:48 <ArtForz> you'Re doing it wrong
2468 2011-02-15 17:26:55 <retsilex> ArtForz: Im not using KMS
2469 2011-02-15 17:27:05 <Diablo-D3> if you didnt specifically turn kms off, you're using kms
2470 2011-02-15 17:27:07 <KBme> no, fglrx has always been a disgrace
2471 2011-02-15 17:27:08 <ArtForz> 18:20:08 up 83 days, 21:02
2472 2011-02-15 17:27:11 <KBme> since day #1
2473 2011-02-15 17:27:11 <retsilex> I TURNED IT THE FUCK OFF
2474 2011-02-15 17:27:12 <ArtForz> fglrx.
2475 2011-02-15 17:27:18 <ArtForz> multihead.
2476 2011-02-15 17:27:19 <Diablo-D3> KBme: except fglrx no longer exists, its catalyst
2477 2011-02-15 17:27:19 <retsilex> ArtForz: multidisplay and actualling using box as desktop
2478 2011-02-15 17:27:22 <ArtForz> yes
2479 2011-02-15 17:27:27 <ArtForz> my main morkstation
2480 2011-02-15 17:27:31 <ArtForz> up 24/7 and used daily
2481 2011-02-15 17:27:34 <Diablo-D3> okay
2482 2011-02-15 17:27:35 <retsilex> ArtForz: well then what?  KMS shit is disabled
2483 2011-02-15 17:27:37 <Diablo-D3> new diablominer uploaded
2484 2011-02-15 17:27:39 <Diablo-D3> go use it
2485 2011-02-15 17:27:46 <KBme> ArtForz: just do a VT switch and say goodbye to your session
2486 2011-02-15 17:27:52 <ArtForz> why would I do that?
2487 2011-02-15 17:27:56 <lfm> Diablo-D3: fglrx is still the module name
2488 2011-02-15 17:27:57 <Diablo-D3> molecular, KBme UukGoblin ^
2489 2011-02-15 17:27:59 <retsilex> ArtForz: switch ctrl-alt-F7..F9 for me a few times and play OpenGL game. For me this = 80% chance of radeon freeze
2490 2011-02-15 17:28:09 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes because they were asked not to chang eit
2491 2011-02-15 17:28:12 <ArtForz> why the fuck are you using VTs when you have X running?
2492 2011-02-15 17:28:17 <KBme> lol
2493 2011-02-15 17:28:27 <KBme> because VTs are part of the operating system
2494 2011-02-15 17:28:27 <retsilex> ArtForz: by VT I ment switching to othe X server - other user
2495 2011-02-15 17:28:28 <Diablo-D3> and yes, please dont change VTs when running opengl or opencl
2496 2011-02-15 17:28:30 <Diablo-D3> or using xv
2497 2011-02-15 17:28:32 <retsilex> and what KBme said
2498 2011-02-15 17:28:37 <KBme> why the fuck do you use cat when you have eclipse?!
2499 2011-02-15 17:28:37 <Diablo-D3> its broken for ubuntu users
2500 2011-02-15 17:28:39 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: why the fuck not?
2501 2011-02-15 17:28:48 <retsilex> Diablo-D3: no, only on radeonshit
2502 2011-02-15 17:28:52 <Diablo-D3> retsilex: because the fbcon code is really broken
2503 2011-02-15 17:28:56 <Diablo-D3> nope, it breaks a lot of X drivers
2504 2011-02-15 17:29:03 <Diablo-D3> nvidia and X/mesa shit often hoarks too
2505 2011-02-15 17:29:08 <retsilex> "please do not wear blue t-shirt while using this software, or it may blow up in your face"
2506 2011-02-15 17:29:16 <ArtForz> like with nvidia
2507 2011-02-15 17:29:26 <KBme> interestingly enough intel drivers are fine with VT switch, eventhough the VT stuff in linux is admittedly borkish
2508 2011-02-15 17:29:26 <Diablo-D3> KMS is actually supposed to fix this
2509 2011-02-15 17:29:32 <KBme> retsilex: lol
2510 2011-02-15 17:29:34 <ArtForz> "dont enable Xv and drag window containing movie between displays"
2511 2011-02-15 17:29:39 <Diablo-D3> KMS enabled drivers should never hoark, because the same code is used by everyone
2512 2011-02-15 17:29:46 <retsilex> yeah I stoped switching VT's / X servers anyway.  And still it is freezing, but "just" each 2 days now
2513 2011-02-15 17:29:48 <Diablo-D3> KBme: if you use intel with kms
2514 2011-02-15 17:29:50 <retsilex> the radeon
2515 2011-02-15 17:29:57 <ArtForz> that was 100% insta-freeze with nvidia
2516 2011-02-15 17:30:05 <retsilex> ArtForz: your desktop uses which sdk, which drier version? and what linux?
2517 2011-02-15 17:30:07 grifferz has joined
2518 2011-02-15 17:30:13 <Diablo-D3> KBme: intel with kms off still can hoark periodically
2519 2011-02-15 17:30:32 <ArtForz> debian sid, 2.6.32, fglrx 10.9, sdk 2.1
2520 2011-02-15 17:30:35 <retsilex> ArtForz: yeap, some kombintaiton of switching was freezing nvidias too.   but radeons have like 4 triggers for freeze, one of which is "moving mouse cursor" it seems
2521 2011-02-15 17:30:42 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: oh guess what
2522 2011-02-15 17:30:46 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: Im on 11.1
2523 2011-02-15 17:30:52 <Diablo-D3> no slow down :D
2524 2011-02-15 17:31:02 <retsilex> then mouse cursor starts jumping around border of screen and nothing works
2525 2011-02-15 17:31:15 <KBme> Diablo-D3: the sweetness of using gentoo unstable: i'm on kms since a long time
2526 2011-02-15 17:31:32 toast has joined
2527 2011-02-15 17:31:32 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, so 2.7.1 is a fail?
2528 2011-02-15 17:31:40 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: if it works with 2.6, possibly
2529 2011-02-15 17:31:42 <KBme> i even now have some new driver architecture
2530 2011-02-15 17:31:48 <retsilex> meh all GFX cards software is fail :(
2531 2011-02-15 17:31:48 <Diablo-D3> gallium
2532 2011-02-15 17:31:53 <Diablo-D3> SOFTWARE IS FAIL
2533 2011-02-15 17:31:54 <retsilex> Im dissapointed in software development
2534 2011-02-15 17:31:54 <KBme> don't even remember teh name but it's r0x0r
2535 2011-02-15 17:31:58 <Diablo-D3> RETSILEX IS NOT CREDIT TO TEAM
2536 2011-02-15 17:31:59 <KBme> ya gallium
2537 2011-02-15 17:32:00 <Diablo-D3> CRY SOME MORE
2538 2011-02-15 17:32:25 <retsilex> <_<
2539 2011-02-15 17:32:28 <andrew12> heh
2540 2011-02-15 17:32:46 <retsilex> in good old VGA days all just worked =)
2541 2011-02-15 17:32:55 <ArtForz> unless you had a jumper set wrong
2542 2011-02-15 17:33:15 yawniek has joined
2543 2011-02-15 17:33:16 <retsilex> vga, not soundblaster =)
2544 2011-02-15 17:33:21 <ArtForz> same shit
2545 2011-02-15 17:33:23 <retsilex> and duke nukem was talking like 6 not 60 months to develop
2546 2011-02-15 17:33:26 <retsilex> 120
2547 2011-02-15 17:33:27 <lfm> retsilex: old vga days I had a ati card that would only cold start 1 out of 5 tries
2548 2011-02-15 17:33:38 <ArtForz> you could have irq, memory or i/o conflict with VGA cards as well
2549 2011-02-15 17:33:40 foucist has joined
2550 2011-02-15 17:33:44 <retsilex> lfm: I had Ati card, that was constalnty glithcing freezing and hanging on windows
2551 2011-02-15 17:34:02 <ArtForz> only took like a decade to get PnP more-or-less working ...
2552 2011-02-15 17:34:02 <UukGoblin> uhm, no
2553 2011-02-15 17:34:05 <lfm> retsilex: ya 386 windows 3.0
2554 2011-02-15 17:34:07 <retsilex> the "All-In-Wonder" card. IT'S A WONDER PEOPLE BUY OUR SHIT LOL
2555 2011-02-15 17:34:10 <andrew12> IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL
2556 2011-02-15 17:34:13 <UukGoblin> it was windows constantly glitching and freezing and hanging, NOT the card.
2557 2011-02-15 17:34:17 <KBme> Diablo-D3: if you can show me a list of dependencies of your stupid miner i will try and install it
2558 2011-02-15 17:34:23 <KBme> (i use the git version)
2559 2011-02-15 17:34:31 <UukGoblin> the only thing that was truly always screwed up was windows.
2560 2011-02-15 17:34:44 <ArtForz> no, all-in-wonder drivers were royally screwed
2561 2011-02-15 17:34:45 <retsilex> UukGoblin: and linux audio system
2562 2011-02-15 17:34:49 <lfm> UukGoblin: this was in bios post, not windows
2563 2011-02-15 17:35:09 satamusic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2564 2011-02-15 17:35:13 <retsilex> yes please use our 217 sound libs toolkits apis and SDKs!  Pick any one NO WORRY - none of them WORK anyway lol
2565 2011-02-15 17:35:14 <UukGoblin> oh well I was talking about retsilex's issue ;-]
2566 2011-02-15 17:35:31 <ArtForz> dunno, ALSA + JACK works plenty fine here
2567 2011-02-15 17:35:35 <echelon> someone highlighted me?
2568 2011-02-15 17:35:43 <retsilex> audio problem? NO WORRY, write another 18 libs why not
2569 2011-02-15 17:35:45 * andrew12 highlights echelon 
2570 2011-02-15 17:35:45 <UukGoblin> echelon, he wanted to hilite edcba instead
2571 2011-02-15 17:35:47 <ArtForz> I won't touch the mess that is pulseaudio
2572 2011-02-15 17:35:57 <echelon> ah kk
2573 2011-02-15 17:35:58 <foucist> ArtForz: hi, i am curious about why there was a drop in stream processors from 3200 for 5970 to 1120 for 6870..  i heard it had something to do with some sort of update that made them less necessary for gaming?  what's the nature of that update?  :)
2574 2011-02-15 17:35:58 <echelon> thanks
2575 2011-02-15 17:36:00 <UukGoblin> pulseaudio is actually awesome ArtForz
2576 2011-02-15 17:36:02 <KBme> alsa isn't much better
2577 2011-02-15 17:36:05 <UukGoblin> just not what people are using it for
2578 2011-02-15 17:36:08 <KBme> pulseaudio sucks
2579 2011-02-15 17:36:16 <retsilex> UukGoblin: Pulse Audio is awesome, in sucking a big chinese dong in hongkong
2580 2011-02-15 17:36:16 <ArtForz> yes, like half a second latency. how AWESOME.
2581 2011-02-15 17:36:17 <KBme> what is it awesome for?
2582 2011-02-15 17:36:21 <KBme> haahha retsilex
2583 2011-02-15 17:36:31 <UukGoblin> it's awesome for streaming audio over network
2584 2011-02-15 17:36:35 <KBme> lol
2585 2011-02-15 17:36:36 <UukGoblin> and configuring it
2586 2011-02-15 17:36:40 <ArtForz> guess you could loop output to input externally and make a cool reverb ...
2587 2011-02-15 17:36:43 <KBme> no it actually sucks for that too
2588 2011-02-15 17:36:48 <KBme> I tried
2589 2011-02-15 17:36:50 <UukGoblin> well yes, if you're streaming audio over network you have to accept the latencies
2590 2011-02-15 17:36:54 <ArtForz> LOCALLY
2591 2011-02-15 17:36:54 <KBme> and audio is delayed over the network
2592 2011-02-15 17:37:03 phantomcircuit_ has joined
2593 2011-02-15 17:37:08 <retsilex> PA is awesome for NOT WORKING as another user, or working as another user with just 500 MS LATENCY IN GAMES.  It even works over NETWORK! LOCALHOST 1000 MS LATENCY wow. Didn tried it in LAN yet but my hopes sure are up.
2594 2011-02-15 17:37:19 <KBme> so then why not just use icecast to have audio on the network?
2595 2011-02-15 17:37:19 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2596 2011-02-15 17:37:22 <UukGoblin> pulseaudio SUCKS DONKEY COCKS for local audio
2597 2011-02-15 17:37:25 <ArtForz> yeah, that sounds like my experience
2598 2011-02-15 17:37:27 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2599 2011-02-15 17:37:27 <retsilex> yeap
2600 2011-02-15 17:37:33 <UukGoblin> KBme, because pulseaudio makes it nicely appear as a soundcard
2601 2011-02-15 17:37:38 <KBme> lol
2602 2011-02-15 17:38:03 <ArtForz> why do I want to play sound from one box on another again? oh right, I don't...
2603 2011-02-15 17:38:04 <retsilex> speaking of donkey cocks, there should be ati group on Freenet. With videos CHK@s lol
2604 2011-02-15 17:38:37 <retsilex> ArtForz: you can have ~3 ms latency with pulseaudio, just play it over a LAN. Through a warmhole that goes back in time 1500 ms
2605 2011-02-15 17:38:41 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, setups like intercoms, or remote DJing to a different room, or playing the same shit on two computers in different rooms at the same time
2606 2011-02-15 17:38:47 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, most people DON'T do that
2607 2011-02-15 17:39:02 <UukGoblin> whoever decided to make it the default sound delivery system in ubuntu was an idiot ;-P
2608 2011-02-15 17:39:08 <retsilex> UukGoblin: NO WHY SIR we do it totally all the time with me and ALL MY FRIENDS AT WORK, seriously
2609 2011-02-15 17:39:11 <retsilex> >_>
2610 2011-02-15 17:39:34 <KBme> UukGoblin: it *doesn't* work for playing the same shit on two computers in different rooms at the same time
2611 2011-02-15 17:39:48 <retsilex> KBme: lolz
2612 2011-02-15 17:39:49 <ArtForz> well, at the same time, +- a few seconds :P
2613 2011-02-15 17:39:49 <KBme> UukGoblin: with 1500ms lag it's really fucking annoyin
2614 2011-02-15 17:40:02 <UukGoblin> KBme, it works, with a lag
2615 2011-02-15 17:40:07 <KBme> lol
2616 2011-02-15 17:40:07 <glassresistor> on the bitcoinmarket when a trade happens, thats handled automatically, does the buyer then have to approve the trade before the money is sent?
2617 2011-02-15 17:40:15 <UukGoblin> KBme, the lag doesn't matter if you're just playing out mp3s
2618 2011-02-15 17:40:19 <KBme> so then what use is it?
2619 2011-02-15 17:40:28 <KBme> why again?
2620 2011-02-15 17:40:31 <UukGoblin> told you, some specific networked uses
2621 2011-02-15 17:40:43 <foucist> ArtForz: i heard you were the guy to ask about the reason for the drop in stream processors between 5970 and the cards that come after :P
2622 2011-02-15 17:40:47 <KBme> jack works fine for that by the way
2623 2011-02-15 17:40:51 <UukGoblin> like when you have a diskless soundcardless remote terminal but want to play out sounds somewhere else and shit
2624 2011-02-15 17:40:52 <foucist> that you might have a theory for it..
2625 2011-02-15 17:40:52 <glassresistor> im trying to figure out if i should cancel this trade or not its been 2 hours since it happened and im not getting the money in my mb accout
2626 2011-02-15 17:40:59 <KBme> pulseaudio just tries to reinvent what jack does, crappily
2627 2011-02-15 17:41:06 <UukGoblin> ah yes jack does work but requires application support, whereas PA just shows up as an audio card
2628 2011-02-15 17:41:07 davex__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2629 2011-02-15 17:41:08 <lfm> glassresistor: I think most people have moved to mygox from bitcoinmarket
2630 2011-02-15 17:41:12 davex___ has joined
2631 2011-02-15 17:41:19 <lfm> mygox ->mtgix
2632 2011-02-15 17:41:25 <molecular> lol
2633 2011-02-15 17:41:26 <lfm> mygox ->mtgox
2634 2011-02-15 17:41:30 <glassresistor> haha
2635 2011-02-15 17:41:30 <ArtForz> foucist: pretyt simple really, 5xxx had pretty bad shader ALU use % in games on average
2636 2011-02-15 17:41:35 <UukGoblin> IIRC there wasn't any JACK->ALSA/OSS gateways... but I might be wrong
2637 2011-02-15 17:41:36 <KBme> UukGoblin: which is why for the first few years PA and skype and flash and etc... would crash pretty often
2638 2011-02-15 17:41:38 <glassresistor> yeah but im got pending trades
2639 2011-02-15 17:42:01 <UukGoblin> KBme, using it for skype is a contradiction in terms imho ;-]
2640 2011-02-15 17:42:03 <KBme> also, for playing over the network with latency use netcat wombined with OSS4
2641 2011-02-15 17:42:03 <ArtForz> so 6xxx got more fixed-function ahdrware, beefed up frontends, better mem controller, ... but shader ALU * MHz went down
2642 2011-02-15 17:42:08 <glassresistor> i might move later this week but i want to get the money from the trads im already doing and bitcoin market looks to have better rates for sellers
2643 2011-02-15 17:42:10 <foucist> ArtForz: so the shader ALU wasn't getting utilized fully?
2644 2011-02-15 17:42:11 <foucist> ArtForz: ahh i see
2645 2011-02-15 17:42:18 <KBme> s,wombined,combined
2646 2011-02-15 17:42:26 <UukGoblin> KBme, OSS4 is awesome, yeah
2647 2011-02-15 17:42:39 <lfm> glassresistor: just explaining why you arnt getting much feedback
2648 2011-02-15 17:42:42 <KBme> at least we agree on that
2649 2011-02-15 17:42:50 <glassresistor> lfm: no i appreciate it
2650 2011-02-15 17:42:56 <UukGoblin> shame they won't have it in linux
2651 2011-02-15 17:43:05 <glassresistor> whats the current ask/bit on mt.gox
2652 2011-02-15 17:43:07 <KBme> UukGoblin: er? wat?
2653 2011-02-15 17:43:15 <ArtForz> ;;bc,mtgox
2654 2011-02-15 17:43:15 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.085,"low":1.035,"vol":10313,"buy":1.0341,"sell":1.0549,"last":1.0502}}
2655 2011-02-15 17:43:37 <lfm> ;;bc,bcm
2656 2011-02-15 17:43:38 <gribble> [{"pair": "BCUSD[MoneyBookers]", "ask": 0.0, "bid": 0.37, "time": 1297791396}, {"pair": "BCGAU[Pecunix]", "ask": 0.0, "bid": 0.0045999999999999999, "time": 1297791396}, {"pair": "BCUSD[PayPal]", "ask": 1.0800000000000001, "bid": 1.05, "time": 1297791396}, {"pair": "BCUSD[LibertyReserve]", "ask": 1.2, "bid": 0.94999999999999996, "time": 1297791396}]
2657 2011-02-15 17:43:39 <foucist> ArtForz: dumb quesiton, but is the high number of stream processors also the biggest factor for other forms of crunching like the BOINC stuff?
2658 2011-02-15 17:43:49 <ArtForz> in theory, yes
2659 2011-02-15 17:44:15 <ArtForz> in practice fully utilizing all shaders on 58xx takes a lot of tweaking
2660 2011-02-15 17:44:21 <lfm> processors x clock speed
2661 2011-02-15 17:44:22 * retsilex *poof*
2662 2011-02-15 17:45:00 <UukGoblin> KBme, what, is OSS4 in linux now?
2663 2011-02-15 17:45:04 <ArtForz> with proper optimization it pretty much runs circles around everything
2664 2011-02-15 17:45:22 <KBme> UukGoblin: it is available for linux, sure
2665 2011-02-15 17:45:25 <ArtForz> well, except for double precision floating point, for that 69xx is actually better than 58xx
2666 2011-02-15 17:45:36 <KBme> i think it's also in the kernels, not sure about that tho
2667 2011-02-15 17:45:42 <UukGoblin> ah cool
2668 2011-02-15 17:45:47 <KBme> i'm stuck with alsa+pulseaudio crap for now
2669 2011-02-15 17:45:55 <luke-jr> plain ALSA works fine
2670 2011-02-15 17:45:58 <UukGoblin> last time I looked at it you needed special patches and there was something wrong with them too
2671 2011-02-15 17:46:15 <UukGoblin> basically it didn't make sense on linux... don't remember why now
2672 2011-02-15 17:46:30 <retsilex> isnt OSS4 actually propertiary or something?
2673 2011-02-15 17:46:36 <UukGoblin> no
2674 2011-02-15 17:46:39 <KBme> one thing that is nice in pulseaudio is being able to specify the volume per-application
2675 2011-02-15 17:46:40 <UukGoblin> it's in freebsd
2676 2011-02-15 17:46:47 <retsilex> KBme: indeed
2677 2011-02-15 17:46:55 <retsilex> too bad it is so high latency
2678 2011-02-15 17:47:04 <retsilex> when I aksed #pulseaudio to help me
2679 2011-02-15 17:47:06 <retsilex> they where like
2680 2011-02-15 17:47:08 <UukGoblin> you can do that in JACK too ;-]
2681 2011-02-15 17:47:11 <ArtForz> unless stuff is limited by memory bandwidth, in that case nvidia can actually keep up
2682 2011-02-15 17:47:15 <UukGoblin> and JACK actually has decent latencies
2683 2011-02-15 17:47:15 <KBme> UukGoblin: ;)
2684 2011-02-15 17:47:28 <KBme> yeah, jack is ay better in all regards than pulse
2685 2011-02-15 17:47:30 <retsilex> "well no. YOU say that 300 ms is inacceptable. That is your problem". Perhaps PA is developed by bunch of deaf guys?
2686 2011-02-15 17:47:42 <KBme> lol
2687 2011-02-15 17:48:00 <foucist> which type of distributed computing crunching (BOINC, etc) is most memory intensive?
2688 2011-02-15 17:48:01 <ArtForz> or people with really bad ear-eye coordination :P
2689 2011-02-15 17:48:10 <UukGoblin> yeah what Art said ;-]
2690 2011-02-15 17:48:19 <retsilex> foucist: freenet lol.  put storage to ram disk then it will own it
2691 2011-02-15 17:48:28 <luke-jr> hmm, my maildir is 9 GB, but my git repository containing its full history is only 4 GB :P
2692 2011-02-15 17:48:48 <foucist> retsilex: SSD might not be too bad for that either..
2693 2011-02-15 17:48:48 <KBme> luke-jr: are you counting .git?
2694 2011-02-15 17:48:53 <retsilex> foucist: yea
2695 2011-02-15 17:49:02 <lfm> foucist: I think folding@home is pretty heavey memory user
2696 2011-02-15 17:49:03 <luke-jr> KBme: the 9 GB is without .git, the 4 GB is only .git
2697 2011-02-15 17:49:16 <KBme> ah, ok
2698 2011-02-15 17:49:24 <KBme> weird :)
2699 2011-02-15 17:49:27 <retsilex> computer game!!!
2700 2011-02-15 17:49:27 <luke-jr> hehe
2701 2011-02-15 17:49:29 <foucist> luke-jr: you keep all your mail in a git repo?
2702 2011-02-15 17:49:30 <retsilex> year 2002.
2703 2011-02-15 17:49:33 <retsilex> Quake 2 in Windows.
2704 2011-02-15 17:49:34 <luke-jr> foucist: yep
2705 2011-02-15 17:49:42 <luke-jr> foucist: nice for backups in realtime
2706 2011-02-15 17:49:47 <foucist> luke-jr: do you back it up too?
2707 2011-02-15 17:49:56 <retsilex> *click-zip-buum* "Player1 killed"
2708 2011-02-15 17:50:01 <retsilex> 2011.  PA game (as another unix user. ON THE SAME FUCKING COMPUTER)
2709 2011-02-15 17:50:05 <foucist> luke-jr: rsync backup?
2710 2011-02-15 17:50:06 <luke-jr> my script automatically pushes to my desktop 30 seconds after a commit
2711 2011-02-15 17:50:06 <UukGoblin> you use git with Maildir? :-O
2712 2011-02-15 17:50:24 <retsilex> "Player 1 killed" *click* "Player1 quit the server" zip. "Loading biggun map" *boom*
2713 2011-02-15 17:50:29 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: yep
2714 2011-02-15 17:50:35 <ArtForz> lol
2715 2011-02-15 17:50:49 <luke-jr> and inotify to make the commits
2716 2011-02-15 17:50:51 <UukGoblin> oh, just read up
2717 2011-02-15 17:50:56 <UukGoblin> heh
2718 2011-02-15 17:50:59 <UukGoblin> why not rsync?
2719 2011-02-15 17:51:03 <luke-jr> rsync would be too slow
2720 2011-02-15 17:51:12 <luke-jr> has to scan every single file
2721 2011-02-15 17:51:25 <UukGoblin> doesn't git do that too?
2722 2011-02-15 17:51:32 <luke-jr> 733,000 files
2723 2011-02-15 17:51:41 <luke-jr> no, git lets you manually tell it which files change
2724 2011-02-15 17:51:47 <lfm> what you save all your spam?
2725 2011-02-15 17:51:50 <luke-jr> which is where inotify comes in handy
2726 2011-02-15 17:52:01 <luke-jr> lfm: it compresses well :D
2727 2011-02-15 17:52:02 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, you can also tell rsync which files you want transferred ;-]
2728 2011-02-15 17:52:09 <lfm> lol
2729 2011-02-15 17:52:16 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: git is more efficient ☺
2730 2011-02-15 17:52:31 <UukGoblin> hrm.
2731 2011-02-15 17:52:36 <luke-jr> I'd have to remember which files changed for rsync as long as I was offline
2732 2011-02-15 17:52:49 <luke-jr> since my desktop upgrade, I haven't had my backups sync'd for over a month
2733 2011-02-15 17:53:02 <luke-jr> but once I finish this, git will just push it like nothing happened
2734 2011-02-15 17:53:03 <andrew12> hmm
2735 2011-02-15 17:53:08 <andrew12> i wouldn't have thought of using git
2736 2011-02-15 17:53:12 <andrew12> and then just pulling
2737 2011-02-15 17:53:14 <luke-jr> also, rsync backups don't protect me from user error
2738 2011-02-15 17:53:18 <andrew12> dats clever
2739 2011-02-15 17:53:39 <UukGoblin> well depends how you do them
2740 2011-02-15 17:53:45 <UukGoblin> git does kick ass I have to agree ;-]
2741 2011-02-15 17:54:04 <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/gitbackup/gitbackup/blobs/master/gitbackup.c
2742 2011-02-15 17:54:07 <KBme> git rocks for text
2743 2011-02-15 17:54:08 <UukGoblin> someone here used it for automated server installs, to pull configs from FAI master
2744 2011-02-15 17:54:20 <UukGoblin> which is kinda weird cause these configs are generated by scripts...
2745 2011-02-15 17:54:21 <KBme> once you start having a lot of binary data rsync rocks it hands off
2746 2011-02-15 17:54:31 <UukGoblin> so it's a bit of an abuse of git
2747 2011-02-15 17:54:33 <luke-jr> KBme: git can handle binary diffing too
2748 2011-02-15 17:54:37 <KBme> it can
2749 2011-02-15 17:54:47 <KBme> doesn't mean it does it efficiently at all
2750 2011-02-15 17:54:52 <luke-jr> 513 lines of C code, to make git do real-time backups ☺
2751 2011-02-15 17:55:18 <UukGoblin> C?!?!
2752 2011-02-15 17:55:26 <UukGoblin> oh, inotify...
2753 2011-02-15 17:55:37 <luke-jr> and I haven't had to touch it in about a year, it's pretty stable :P
2754 2011-02-15 17:55:53 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, does it work with 40GB files?
2755 2011-02-15 17:56:01 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: nfc
2756 2011-02-15 17:56:09 <luke-jr> my mail server has a 15 MB limit on messages
2757 2011-02-15 17:56:11 <luke-jr> or smth like that
2758 2011-02-15 17:56:26 <KBme> luke-jr: as i said, try to backup /usr/bin to git
2759 2011-02-15 17:56:28 <KBme> have fun
2760 2011-02-15 17:56:33 david has joined
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2762 2011-02-15 17:56:54 <luke-jr> KBme: git won't store file permissions
2763 2011-02-15 17:56:59 bubust00br has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D)
2764 2011-02-15 17:57:19 <KBme> yeah, still
2765 2011-02-15 17:57:22 <KBme> even just for speed
2766 2011-02-15 17:57:29 <luke-jr> and /usr/bin is backed up via binary packages in /usr/portage/packages ☺
2767 2011-02-15 17:57:59 <KBme> luke-jr: this is just to demonstrate you can't use this system for anything, only mostly text data
2768 2011-02-15 17:58:04 <luke-jr> I have a personal policy never to modify stuff outside /etc, /home, /tmp, /var, and /mnt except via pkgs
2769 2011-02-15 17:58:09 plumb` has joined
2770 2011-02-15 17:58:18 <luke-jr> KBme: I didn't say it was for anything. I said it was for maildirs. :p
2771 2011-02-15 17:58:30 <KBme> yeah, that's fine
2772 2011-02-15 17:58:37 <KBme> it's awesome, actually
2773 2011-02-15 17:59:00 <KBme> luke-jr: you didn't release the code for that inotify+git backup of maildirs, did you?
2774 2011-02-15 17:59:26 <luke-jr> KBme: …
2775 2011-02-15 17:59:29 <luke-jr> [12:47:10] <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/gitbackup/gitbackup/blobs/master/gitbackup.c
2776 2011-02-15 17:59:39 <KBme> oh oops
2777 2011-02-15 17:59:41 <KBme> sry
2778 2011-02-15 17:59:50 <UukGoblin> yeah the file system layout on stuff like debian is pretty screwed
2779 2011-02-15 17:59:52 * UukGoblin loves nix
2780 2011-02-15 18:00:09 <luke-jr> KBme: probably want to clone the entire repo and use the scripts included
2781 2011-02-15 18:00:27 <luke-jr> with a cronjob to run at @reboot and @daily
2782 2011-02-15 18:00:44 <luke-jr> because if the monitored stuff changes too fast, it *does* intentionally die
2783 2011-02-15 18:00:57 <luke-jr> in which case, the daily one restarts it
2784 2011-02-15 18:01:05 genjix_ has joined
2785 2011-02-15 18:01:06 <luke-jr> (if it was a problem for me, I'd make it exec itself)
2786 2011-02-15 18:02:06 <luke-jr> if it's a problem for you, feel free to change it and make a merge req :p
2787 2011-02-15 18:02:18 Omnifars has joined
2788 2011-02-15 18:02:36 <luke-jr> reason you'd need to restart, is because inotify just drops changes
2789 2011-02-15 18:02:41 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2790 2011-02-15 18:02:56 <luke-jr> and it would therefore miss any directory creates
2791 2011-02-15 18:03:03 <luke-jr> even if it had git do a rescan of everything
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2793 2011-02-15 18:03:15 <KBme> huh
2794 2011-02-15 18:03:34 <KBme> luke-jr: also, now we have fanotify :p
2795 2011-02-15 18:03:49 <luke-jr> I'm not sure fanotify is the right tool for this, but I haven't looked into it
2796 2011-02-15 18:04:05 <luke-jr> don't *really* want to be notified for every. freaking. change. :P
2797 2011-02-15 18:04:13 <luke-jr> just those inside the maildir
2798 2011-02-15 18:06:06 * luke-jr watches his gitbackup begin its first successful push in a month
2799 2011-02-15 18:06:52 t4ls0 has joined
2800 2011-02-15 18:08:03 <luke-jr> yay, we get to keep -monitor :p
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2806 2011-02-15 18:10:39 <phantomcircuit> 2 weeks seems like an awfully long time between recalculating the difficulty
2807 2011-02-15 18:10:45 davex__ has joined
2808 2011-02-15 18:12:21 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
2809 2011-02-15 18:12:33 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: it's faster if the difficulty is going to up significantly.
2810 2011-02-15 18:12:39 <andrew12> hmm
2811 2011-02-15 18:12:45 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but unfortunately slower, if it is going to go down significantly.
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2835 2011-02-15 18:14:10 <andrew12> when it says "0xfd + uint16_t" under format in the protocol spec, does it mean 0xfd && the number?
2836 2011-02-15 18:14:26 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, yes
2837 2011-02-15 18:14:33 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, variable length integers ftl
2838 2011-02-15 18:14:48 lzd_hz has joined
2839 2011-02-15 18:15:00 <luke-jr> andrew12: no
2840 2011-02-15 18:15:07 nameless has joined
2841 2011-02-15 18:15:14 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: a && b can only result in 0 or 1
2842 2011-02-15 18:15:28 <luke-jr> andrew12: it means a literal 0xfd char, followed by a uint16_t
2843 2011-02-15 18:15:36 gwillen_ has joined
2844 2011-02-15 18:15:54 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, oh my bad i thought he was saying 0xfd0xdeadbeef
2845 2011-02-15 18:16:05 <phantomcircuit> not bitwise and
2846 2011-02-15 18:16:08 <phantomcircuit> er
2847 2011-02-15 18:16:11 <phantomcircuit> not logical and
2848 2011-02-15 18:16:17 <lfm> that would be uint32
2849 2011-02-15 18:16:22 * phantomcircuit needs more coffee
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2867 2011-02-15 18:16:55 <andrew12> luke-jr: thanks
2868 2011-02-15 18:16:56 <phantomcircuit> lfm, wiki says 0xfd is uint16_t
2869 2011-02-15 18:17:02 <phantomcircuit> 0xfe 32
2870 2011-02-15 18:17:04 <phantomcircuit> 0xff 64
2871 2011-02-15 18:17:11 <phantomcircuit> which would seem to make sense
2872 2011-02-15 18:17:14 <lfm> 0xfd concatenate uint16
2873 2011-02-15 18:17:30 <lfm> so its 3 bytes
2874 2011-02-15 18:17:41 <luke-jr> personally, I would just UTF-8 encode the numbers :D
2875 2011-02-15 18:17:50 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you crazy
2876 2011-02-15 18:17:50 <luke-jr> but that's probably considered evil
2877 2011-02-15 18:18:16 <phantomcircuit> personally i would just use uint64_t and assume that'll be big enough for a long time
2878 2011-02-15 18:18:27 <phantomcircuit> then when it's not increment a protocol version counter
2879 2011-02-15 18:18:50 <andrew12> the "fffffffffff" pretty much sums up binary data
2880 2011-02-15 18:18:59 gwillen has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2881 2011-02-15 18:19:05 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, amusing
2882 2011-02-15 18:19:10 MartianW has joined
2883 2011-02-15 18:19:17 <phantomcircuit> ima write a native python client
2884 2011-02-15 18:19:32 <lfm> good luck
2885 2011-02-15 18:19:34 <andrew12> i'm writing a sort of library in ruby
2886 2011-02-15 18:20:09 <phantomcircuit> lfm, i don't think it'll be *that* hard
2887 2011-02-15 18:20:09 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: didn't genjix_?
2888 2011-02-15 18:20:22 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, no he wrote an rpc interface
2889 2011-02-15 18:20:26 <phantomcircuit> im talking an actual client
2890 2011-02-15 18:20:37 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2891 2011-02-15 18:20:42 <andrew12> there isnt something that says "64-bit unsigned integer, little endian, but there is "native endian"
2892 2011-02-15 18:20:45 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: no, his client was GUI
2893 2011-02-15 18:20:51 sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2895 2011-02-15 18:21:06 <andrew12> er,
2896 2011-02-15 18:21:13 <andrew12> there isnt something that says "64-bit unsigned integer, little endian", but there is "native endian"
2897 2011-02-15 18:21:19 <andrew12> stupid quotes :P
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2902 2011-02-15 18:22:31 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah it uses bitcoind and rpc
2903 2011-02-15 18:22:48 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/genjix/spesmilo
2904 2011-02-15 18:22:52 <phantomcircuit> it's a neat client
2905 2011-02-15 18:23:05 <phantomcircuit> but it's really only a GUI for the mainline client
2906 2011-02-15 18:24:28 <andrew12> hmm
2907 2011-02-15 18:25:15 da2ce7 has joined
2908 2011-02-15 18:26:36 Diablo-D3 has joined
2909 2011-02-15 18:27:26 <andrew12> what exactly is "native endian" ?
2910 2011-02-15 18:27:30 akem_ has joined
2911 2011-02-15 18:27:38 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, your local system
2912 2011-02-15 18:27:41 <luke-jr> andrew12: could be anything
2913 2011-02-15 18:27:56 <andrew12> oh great
2914 2011-02-15 18:28:00 <luke-jr> KBme: FYI: the last month of maildir changes totalled to 36.87 MB
2915 2011-02-15 18:28:24 <andrew12> bbiab
2916 2011-02-15 18:29:06 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, everything is little endian except ip/port
2917 2011-02-15 18:29:47 malfy has joined
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2927 2011-02-15 18:31:01 sshc is now known as Guest71065
2928 2011-02-15 18:31:16 grifferz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2929 2011-02-15 18:31:51 <andrew12> phantomcircuit: i know. :p
2930 2011-02-15 18:32:19 malfy has joined
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2933 2011-02-15 18:33:23 xelister has joined
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2935 2011-02-15 18:34:02 <Diablo-D3> grrr
2936 2011-02-15 18:34:14 grifferz has joined
2937 2011-02-15 18:34:19 <Diablo-D3> KBme: learn to use mvn
2938 2011-02-15 18:34:22 <andrew12> what i'm having trouble with is figuring out how i can use 2 uint32's instead of a uint64, because there is no uint64 :|
2939 2011-02-15 18:34:24 <Diablo-D3> KBme: all you have to do is run mvn package
2940 2011-02-15 18:34:34 <andrew12> http://www.ruby-doc.org/core/classes/Array.html#M000206
2941 2011-02-15 18:34:49 <Diablo-D3> andrew12: dont use ruby
2942 2011-02-15 18:34:51 <Diablo-D3> problem solved.
2943 2011-02-15 18:34:57 <andrew12> no u
2944 2011-02-15 18:35:22 <lfm> rby?
2945 2011-02-15 18:35:52 <andrew12> hmm
2946 2011-02-15 18:36:05 <Diablo-D3> gag
2947 2011-02-15 18:36:07 <Diablo-D3> hah
2948 2011-02-15 18:36:27 <andrew12> i think 'native endian' is little endian, at least on this machine
2949 2011-02-15 18:36:37 <andrew12> if not then it's as simple as reversing it
2950 2011-02-15 18:36:39 <andrew12> hm
2951 2011-02-15 18:37:29 <andrew12> little endian 1 is 0x0100000000000000 (64 bit) right?
2952 2011-02-15 18:37:30 ctoph0 has joined
2953 2011-02-15 18:37:34 <lfm> are we gonna end up with little endian bitcoin and bigendian bitcoin nets?
2954 2011-02-15 18:37:40 <andrew12> lfm: haha
2955 2011-02-15 18:37:53 <Diablo-D3> lfm: no, but bitcoin has incorrect endian
2956 2011-02-15 18:37:58 kermit1 has joined
2957 2011-02-15 18:38:07 <Diablo-D3> there just are no big endian users
2958 2011-02-15 18:38:11 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2959 2011-02-15 18:39:03 Guest71065 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2960 2011-02-15 18:39:09 <lfm> there is too much bytedwapping in sha2 already for me. hope we dont have much more
2961 2011-02-15 18:39:10 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, the network protocol uses little endian
2962 2011-02-15 18:39:13 <andrew12> then i'll just assume everyone is little endian then :P
2963 2011-02-15 18:39:16 nathan7 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2964 2011-02-15 18:39:31 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: no, it uses native endian
2965 2011-02-15 18:39:35 <Diablo-D3> its just that we're all using little endian
2966 2011-02-15 18:39:54 <phantomcircuit> oh really?
2967 2011-02-15 18:39:57 <phantomcircuit> that's stupid as hell
2968 2011-02-15 18:39:58 <KBme> Diablo-D3: thanks
2969 2011-02-15 18:40:09 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: he just doesnt detect endian
2970 2011-02-15 18:40:10 <lfm> bigendian is dead
2971 2011-02-15 18:40:16 <Diablo-D3> well, its not "dead"
2972 2011-02-15 18:40:19 sshc_ has joined
2973 2011-02-15 18:40:21 <Diablo-D3> but one or the other should be enforced
2974 2011-02-15 18:40:32 <Diablo-D3> I have no qualms with people enforcing little endian as long as its notated
2975 2011-02-15 18:40:34 theymos has joined
2976 2011-02-15 18:40:39 <Diablo-D3> since network apps are assumed to be using big endian
2977 2011-02-15 18:40:50 <Diablo-D3> plus, anything using text must always be big endian
2978 2011-02-15 18:40:53 <Diablo-D3> which the json api doesnt
2979 2011-02-15 18:40:58 <andrew12> hm
2980 2011-02-15 18:41:01 * Diablo-D3 works around that appropriately, but its stupid
2981 2011-02-15 18:41:20 <lfm> write ten as 01?
2982 2011-02-15 18:41:33 <Diablo-D3> no
2983 2011-02-15 18:41:39 ctoph0 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2984 2011-02-15 18:42:03 <Diablo-D3> lfm: its outputting hex
2985 2011-02-15 18:42:06 <Diablo-D3> not decimal numbers
2986 2011-02-15 18:42:23 <lfm> oh yuk
2987 2011-02-15 18:42:36 riush has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2988 2011-02-15 18:42:47 <Diablo-D3> so instead of 0xABCDEFGH its 0xCDABGHEF
2989 2011-02-15 18:42:50 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, im going to be writing a client in python, i was just going to copy the mainline network protocol, but now im considering using a dual stack old protocol/new protocol
2990 2011-02-15 18:42:54 <Diablo-D3> (thats a 16 bit number, or 2 bytes)
2991 2011-02-15 18:43:03 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2992 2011-02-15 18:43:08 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: not really worth it.
2993 2011-02-15 18:43:20 <phantomcircuit> why not?
2994 2011-02-15 18:43:24 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: if you plan on doing that, PLEASE LEARN HOW TO PROPERLY WRITE A NETWORK PROTOCOL
2995 2011-02-15 18:43:29 riush has joined
2996 2011-02-15 18:43:29 <lfm> looks like m iddleendian
2997 2011-02-15 18:43:31 <phantomcircuit> lol
2998 2011-02-15 18:43:37 <Diablo-D3> lfm: 2 letters == 1 byte
2999 2011-02-15 18:43:45 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i wrote a p2p udp based file transfer system
3000 2011-02-15 18:43:47 <Diablo-D3> lfm: 0xFF is 255
3001 2011-02-15 18:43:49 <phantomcircuit> it's sexy as hell
3002 2011-02-15 18:43:55 StevenCH has joined
3003 2011-02-15 18:43:59 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: doesnt mean you know how to write protocols that will last forever.
3004 2011-02-15 18:44:15 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: protip: version numbers and feature negotiation is your friend
3005 2011-02-15 18:44:23 foucist_ has joined
3006 2011-02-15 18:44:28 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: infact, just use a protocol over http.
3007 2011-02-15 18:44:30 foucist has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3008 2011-02-15 18:44:33 <Diablo-D3> its easier that way
3009 2011-02-15 18:44:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, hehe im fully capable of writing a protocol
3010 2011-02-15 18:44:43 <Diablo-D3> you wont accidently stub your brain
3011 2011-02-15 18:44:45 <phantomcircuit> actually that was my plan
3012 2011-02-15 18:44:49 <xelister> phantomcircuit: like i2p or freenet?
3013 2011-02-15 18:45:02 <phantomcircuit> xelister, no it wasn't anonymous at all
3014 2011-02-15 18:45:10 <StevenCH> ;;guide
3015 2011-02-15 18:45:29 <phantomcircuit> i just got tired of tcp congestion control fucking with my file transfers
3016 2011-02-15 18:45:49 <phantomcircuit> and since i couldnt control the kernel parameters on at least one machine...
3017 2011-02-15 18:46:31 rapacity_ has quit (Changing host)
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3019 2011-02-15 18:46:40 rapacity_ is now known as rapacity
3020 2011-02-15 18:46:47 <lfm> just get rid of the congestion is better
3021 2011-02-15 18:47:11 malfy has joined
3022 2011-02-15 18:47:16 <StevenCH> ;;bc,calc 1000000
3023 2011-02-15 18:47:40 <foucist_> does anyone know if 4x5870 would be too much for 1000W PSU ?
3024 2011-02-15 18:47:45 <lfm> gribble failed to handle the netsplit or something?
3025 2011-02-15 18:47:46 foucist_ is now known as foucist
3026 2011-02-15 18:47:53 <Diablo-D3> foucist: 180*4
3027 2011-02-15 18:48:16 <Diablo-D3> so, possibly.
3028 2011-02-15 18:48:20 <foucist> Diablo-D3: yeah but what about the wattage of the other stuff?  prob would use a cheap sempron, 40W..
3029 2011-02-15 18:48:24 <Diablo-D3> if thats 1000w constant current, you're fine
3030 2011-02-15 18:48:37 <Diablo-D3> if thats 1000w peak, you're boned
3031 2011-02-15 18:48:46 <welterde> Diablo-D3: writing your own network protocol isn't *that* difficult
3032 2011-02-15 18:48:54 <Diablo-D3> welterde: look at what happened to bitcoin
3033 2011-02-15 18:48:56 <Diablo-D3> its a horrid mess
3034 2011-02-15 18:48:57 <foucist> Diablo-D3: prob get the ones rated 80 pls silver..
3035 2011-02-15 18:49:15 <foucist> Diablo-D3: but i wouldn't have much room to overclock i guess?
3036 2011-02-15 18:49:29 <Diablo-D3> foucist: doesnt matter if its 80plus
3037 2011-02-15 18:49:33 <phantomcircuit> lfm, there was no congestion, it was a single hop, the problem is with the way tcp congestion works, i'd only get about 90% of actual throughput because tcp would go slightly above rate, lose a packet and then cut back to 75% and then work it's way back up
3038 2011-02-15 18:49:34 <Diablo-D3> most PSUs are rated for peak
3039 2011-02-15 18:49:39 <foucist> oh
3040 2011-02-15 18:49:49 <foucist> Diablo-D3: so then how do i know what they're actual constant current is?
3041 2011-02-15 18:49:55 <Diablo-D3> read the label on it.
3042 2011-02-15 18:49:56 <foucist> their*
3043 2011-02-15 18:50:00 <Diablo-D3> or buy a brand that isnt shit
3044 2011-02-15 18:50:23 <UukGoblin> mhm
3045 2011-02-15 18:50:26 <welterde> Diablo-D3: true
3046 2011-02-15 18:50:43 gwillen_ is now known as gwillen
3047 2011-02-15 18:50:43 <UukGoblin> I like how corsair AX850 labels "850" and actually provides 840W on the 12V AND over 100W for other voltages
3048 2011-02-15 18:50:54 <lfm> most people's computers only need the PSU to put out to get it warmed up then they idle and sip power
3049 2011-02-15 18:50:56 <Diablo-D3> yeah
3050 2011-02-15 18:51:01 <Diablo-D3> corsair correctly labels
3051 2011-02-15 18:51:03 <Diablo-D3> so does nzxt
3052 2011-02-15 18:51:04 <theymos> phantomcircuit: Does the Linux Kernel do that now? That seems totally broken. TCP is supposed to find the correct rate and stick with it.
3053 2011-02-15 18:51:06 <Diablo-D3> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817116013
3054 2011-02-15 18:51:11 <Diablo-D3> like that
3055 2011-02-15 18:51:19 <Diablo-D3> thats the kind of psu foucist should buy
3056 2011-02-15 18:51:32 gwillen has quit (Changing host)
3057 2011-02-15 18:51:32 gwillen has joined
3058 2011-02-15 18:52:13 <lfm> "correct rate" is always changing due to network conditions
3059 2011-02-15 18:52:25 <UukGoblin> I loaded the AX850 with 3x 5970 for few days and it was warm, but worked
3060 2011-02-15 18:52:35 <UukGoblin> (plus the mobo, cpu, and shit)
3061 2011-02-15 18:52:39 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: thats 900 watts you moron
3062 2011-02-15 18:52:44 bitcoiner has joined
3063 2011-02-15 18:52:46 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: 5970 is 300 each
3064 2011-02-15 18:52:49 <welterde> lfm: you know what's funny? a friend of mine bought an atom server board from supermicro.. when first booted up it uses about 48W.. that power consumption drops down to about 30W over a few hours.. (not right away.. very slowly..)
3065 2011-02-15 18:52:59 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, my clamp ammeter was reporting about 820W
3066 2011-02-15 18:53:06 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, 5970 seems to be more like 250
3067 2011-02-15 18:53:07 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: hrm weird
3068 2011-02-15 18:53:08 <phantomcircuit> theymos, there is no correct rate
3069 2011-02-15 18:53:17 <Diablo-D3> well, mining doesnt fully power 5970s
3070 2011-02-15 18:53:17 <UukGoblin> I know, it's weird
3071 2011-02-15 18:53:20 <Diablo-D3> some shit shuts off
3072 2011-02-15 18:53:27 <UukGoblin> ah yes
3073 2011-02-15 18:53:29 <UukGoblin> actually!
3074 2011-02-15 18:53:35 <Diablo-D3> so still
3075 2011-02-15 18:53:36 <lfm> welfya I got a VIA c7 cpu motherboard like that
3076 2011-02-15 18:53:39 <UukGoblin> a question: can I safely downclock memory?
3077 2011-02-15 18:53:40 <Diablo-D3> I wouldnt fucking do that
3078 2011-02-15 18:53:43 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: yes
3079 2011-02-15 18:53:46 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3080 2011-02-15 18:53:48 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: but you cant fully declock it
3081 2011-02-15 18:53:54 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: when idling it drops down lower
3082 2011-02-15 18:53:59 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: and it doesnt help
3083 2011-02-15 18:54:06 <Diablo-D3> voltage is what you need to lower
3084 2011-02-15 18:54:15 <Diablo-D3> and the memory, at any clock, has a lower limit for voltage
3085 2011-02-15 18:54:18 <welterde> lfm: wonder what causes that..
3086 2011-02-15 18:54:21 <Diablo-D3> and its not much lower than what they are now
3087 2011-02-15 18:54:49 <UukGoblin> hm
3088 2011-02-15 18:55:11 <lfm> welterde: lota things, hardware and software effect it
3089 2011-02-15 18:55:23 <welterde> Diablo-D3: and when designing protocols, which uses heavy crypto.. don't forget to implement an method to change the algorithm(or rather support multiple versions of it) ;)
3090 2011-02-15 18:55:26 <Diablo-D3> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139007
3091 2011-02-15 18:55:31 <Diablo-D3> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139014
3092 2011-02-15 18:55:37 <UukGoblin>                             Core (MHz)    Memory (MHz)
3093 2011-02-15 18:55:38 <UukGoblin>            Current Clocks :    725           1000
3094 2011-02-15 18:55:40 sgornick has joined
3095 2011-02-15 18:55:41 <Diablo-D3> thats the two models of corsair's worth looking at
3096 2011-02-15 18:55:46 sgornick has quit (Changing host)
3097 2011-02-15 18:55:46 sgornick has joined
3098 2011-02-15 18:55:49 <welterde> lfm: you would guess though, that it levels off after a few minutes not after a few hours
3099 2011-02-15 18:55:54 <Diablo-D3> welterde: yes, but if you're using http, you just use https instead
3100 2011-02-15 18:55:54 <UukGoblin> it looks like it's at 1000MHz pretty much all the time (while mining)
3101 2011-02-15 18:56:04 <Diablo-D3> welterde: so all thats already handled by an existing stack
3102 2011-02-15 18:56:21 <UukGoblin> unless I'm reading it wrong
3103 2011-02-15 18:56:22 <lfm> welterde: ya, most do in a few seconds
3104 2011-02-15 18:56:23 <welterde> Diablo-D3: https is a joke of a protocol
3105 2011-02-15 18:56:38 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: argh which flag is clocks
3106 2011-02-15 18:57:13 <Diablo-D3> oh right odgc
3107 2011-02-15 18:57:15 <welterde> Diablo-D3: and transport layer encryption is not the big problem anyway
3108 2011-02-15 18:57:24 <Diablo-D3>            Current Clocks :    625           993
3109 2011-02-15 18:57:26 <Diablo-D3> mining
3110 2011-02-15 18:57:31 <Diablo-D3>            Current Clocks :    160           500
3111 2011-02-15 18:57:31 sshc_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3112 2011-02-15 18:57:33 <Diablo-D3> not mining
3113 2011-02-15 18:57:34 <welterde> that's easy to support multiple versions of it, etc.
3114 2011-02-15 18:57:42 sshc has joined
3115 2011-02-15 18:57:48 <Diablo-D3> welterde: yes, but it should be encrypted anyhow
3116 2011-02-15 18:57:57 <Diablo-D3> welterde: to prevent tampering from malicious entities such as governments
3117 2011-02-15 18:58:29 <welterde> Diablo-D3: sure.. it's better than nothing.. but it can be done better
3118 2011-02-15 18:58:33 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: and I can configure my peak as low as 750, but its still not as low as the idling one which undervolts it a fair bit
3119 2011-02-15 18:58:39 <Diablo-D3> welterde: possibly.
3120 2011-02-15 18:58:55 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3121 2011-02-15 18:58:56 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, well I imagine /some/ ram is needed for mining?
3122 2011-02-15 18:59:06 <Diablo-D3> welterde: having an existing framework used by governments, financial entities, porn websites, and billions of people is superior.
3123 2011-02-15 18:59:10 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: none.
3124 2011-02-15 18:59:16 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: it has zero effect on mining speed.
3125 2011-02-15 18:59:29 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: art underclocked his and lost like 1%
3126 2011-02-15 18:59:35 <UukGoblin> do the cores have their own cache?
3127 2011-02-15 18:59:41 <bitcoiner> how do you sell bitcoins without risking any charge backs ?
3128 2011-02-15 18:59:41 RazielZ has joined
3129 2011-02-15 18:59:47 <Diablo-D3> yes
3130 2011-02-15 18:59:56 <Diablo-D3> theres like 3 cache levels, plus all the registers
3131 2011-02-15 19:00:29 <foucist> Diablo-D3: how about this http://ncix.com/products/?sku=47753&vpn=ST1000%2DP&manufacture=Silverstone%20Technology
3132 2011-02-15 19:00:35 <MartianW> bitcoiner, sell only to trusted people.
3133 2011-02-15 19:00:37 <welterde> Diablo-D3: not really
3134 2011-02-15 19:00:39 <Diablo-D3> foucist: silverstone sucks
3135 2011-02-15 19:01:00 <MartianW> Or an escrow service.
3136 2011-02-15 19:01:11 <bitcoiner> many little amount would prevent fraud also right ?
3137 2011-02-15 19:01:17 <Diablo-D3> bitcoiner: you transfer money using methods that cant be charged back
3138 2011-02-15 19:01:36 <foucist> Diablo-D3: ok looks like they have the corsair (but it doesn't mention the 80 plus silver at all, compared to the newegg page) http://ncix.com/products/?sku=28797&vpn=CMPSU%2D1000HX&manufacture=Corsair
3139 2011-02-15 19:02:00 <Diablo-D3> foucist: you do know newegg sells in canada now, right?
3140 2011-02-15 19:02:20 <foucist> Diablo-D3: didn't know that
3141 2011-02-15 19:02:33 <Diablo-D3> newegg.ca
3142 2011-02-15 19:03:10 <andrew12> hmm
3143 2011-02-15 19:03:12 nathan7 has joined
3144 2011-02-15 19:03:24 <foucist> Diablo-D3: why does silverstone suck anyways :P
3145 2011-02-15 19:03:39 <Diablo-D3> foucist: because they chose to.
3146 2011-02-15 19:03:47 <Diablo-D3> thats the only answer I can really give you
3147 2011-02-15 19:03:57 <Diablo-D3> I mean, if I ran a company, my company would only sell the best
3148 2011-02-15 19:04:06 <Diablo-D3> but I guess they're okay with selling crap
3149 2011-02-15 19:05:34 <foucist> heh
3150 2011-02-15 19:05:56 <bk128> anyone had good/bad experiences with the xfx 5870 cards? is it a decent piece of hardware?
3151 2011-02-15 19:06:09 <bk128> ;;bc,stats
3152 2011-02-15 19:06:34 malfy has joined
3153 2011-02-15 19:06:45 <foucist> Diablo-D3: i'm looking at a 4x5870 setup, aparently the antec 1200W would be more suitable than that corsair 1000W for 4x rig.. http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=41978
3154 2011-02-15 19:06:46 <Diablo-D3> bk128: xfx sucks.
3155 2011-02-15 19:06:52 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lots of money in selling crap XD
3156 2011-02-15 19:07:07 <tcatm> bk128: Those with the fan in the center of the card?
3157 2011-02-15 19:07:19 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: "but how do they sleep at night?" "on a giant pile of cash"
3158 2011-02-15 19:07:30 <Diablo-D3> foucist: dude, antec psus suck
3159 2011-02-15 19:07:37 <foucist> :(
3160 2011-02-15 19:07:38 <bk128> shit.  I have 2 of these in the mail.  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150476
3161 2011-02-15 19:07:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, xD
3162 2011-02-15 19:07:52 <Diablo-D3> bk128: sucks to be you.
3163 2011-02-15 19:07:59 <xelister> Diablo-D3: ha that reminds me
3164 2011-02-15 19:08:00 <bk128> Diablo-D3: what's wrong with them?
3165 2011-02-15 19:08:09 <Diablo-D3> bk128: although they look like oem design so you MIGHT be okay
3166 2011-02-15 19:08:14 <Diablo-D3> er
3167 2011-02-15 19:08:19 <Diablo-D3> AMD design
3168 2011-02-15 19:08:19 <tcatm> bk128: Don't worry. I have three of them and they're mining fine for 5 months 24/7 now at 900 MHz.
3169 2011-02-15 19:08:30 <Diablo-D3> xfx is just on my "do not buy" list
3170 2011-02-15 19:08:42 <bk128> tcatm: ok.
3171 2011-02-15 19:08:50 <bk128> Diablo-D3: couldn't resist.  they were the cheapest @ 200 after rebate
3172 2011-02-15 19:08:54 <xelister> Diablo-D3: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=300
3173 2011-02-15 19:09:00 <bk128> what brand do you usually get?
3174 2011-02-15 19:09:09 <xelister> actually this is overall cool, everyone. http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=300
3175 2011-02-15 19:09:10 <Diablo-D3> brands I buy: asus, gigabyte, msi, sapphire
3176 2011-02-15 19:09:17 <Diablo-D3> brands I dont buy: everyone else
3177 2011-02-15 19:09:33 <glassresistor> on the bitcoinmarket if i don't ever see the money show up in my moneybookers account is there a way to cancel the trade
3178 2011-02-15 19:09:41 <glassresistor> or have i just lost my bitcoins?
3179 2011-02-15 19:10:34 <bk128> gigabyte cards are still $40 more after rebate :(  sapphire cards are $60 more
3180 2011-02-15 19:11:07 <foucist> Diablo-D3: the corsair doesn't have the connectors for a 4-way/quad rig?
3181 2011-02-15 19:12:14 <glassresistor> cause whats the point of using a broken if you can't get your coins back when they don't pay
3182 2011-02-15 19:12:59 <Diablo-D3> foucist: the AX1200 does
3183 2011-02-15 19:13:21 <Diablo-D3> foucist: most of theirs have 6 6+2 plugs
3184 2011-02-15 19:13:45 <xelister> anyone tried to check legal status of bitcoin?
3185 2011-02-15 19:13:46 <bk128> Diablo-D3: think a corsair 850 watt is okay to use with 2 of those 5870's?
3186 2011-02-15 19:13:59 <tcatm> 850 W should be enough for three of them
3187 2011-02-15 19:14:06 <Diablo-D3> KBme: 180 each.
3188 2011-02-15 19:14:09 <Diablo-D3> er
3189 2011-02-15 19:14:09 <tcatm> At least I'm running my 3x 5870 with a 850W PSU
3190 2011-02-15 19:14:11 <Diablo-D3> bk128: 180 each
3191 2011-02-15 19:14:28 <echelon> anyone signed up for bitcoin bonus? 10 free bitcents.. https://bitcoinbonus.com/referral/2f626a22 :D
3192 2011-02-15 19:14:31 <Diablo-D3> bk128: I could run that and a computer on my 650.
3193 2011-02-15 19:14:43 <Diablo-D3> echelon: I make 10 bitcents a day.
3194 2011-02-15 19:14:48 <echelon> and you can get free bitcents if you refer someone
3195 2011-02-15 19:14:50 <Diablo-D3> actually who am I kidding
3196 2011-02-15 19:14:59 <echelon> on what
3197 2011-02-15 19:15:02 <Diablo-D3> I make about 5 bitcoins a day
3198 2011-02-15 19:15:04 sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3199 2011-02-15 19:15:07 <echelon> doing what rather
3200 2011-02-15 19:15:15 <Diablo-D3> ;bc,calc 75000
3201 2011-02-15 19:15:22 <echelon> ah
3202 2011-02-15 19:15:23 <Diablo-D3> fucking bot
3203 2011-02-15 19:15:32 <andrew12> missing a semicolon
3204 2011-02-15 19:15:33 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 75000
3205 2011-02-15 19:15:34 sshc has joined
3206 2011-02-15 19:15:35 <echelon> pooling?
3207 2011-02-15 19:15:43 <andrew12> or it can still not work
3208 2011-02-15 19:15:43 <andrew12> heh
3209 2011-02-15 19:15:43 <bk128> Diablo-D3: someone said they were 300w each lol
3210 2011-02-15 19:15:44 <Diablo-D3> okay its closer to 2.5 bitcoins a day
3211 2011-02-15 19:15:59 <Diablo-D3> bk128: 5870 is 180, 5970 is 300
3212 2011-02-15 19:16:01 <andrew12> its not even here
3213 2011-02-15 19:16:03 <echelon> heh
3214 2011-02-15 19:16:21 <glassresistor> what is the bonuses things?
3215 2011-02-15 19:16:24 <andrew12> 14:09:02 <andrew> bc,calc 75000
3216 2011-02-15 19:16:25 <andrew12> 14:09:04 <supybot> The average time to generate a block at 75000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 33 minutes, and 20 seconds
3217 2011-02-15 19:16:26 <Diablo-D3> bk128: if you had two 5970s, a 850 would be enough as long as the naked box doesnt use more than about 150
3218 2011-02-15 19:16:30 <andrew12> yay for having my own supybot
3219 2011-02-15 19:16:50 <bk128> Diablo-D3: you develop a gpu miner and are only doing 75mhash/sec?
3220 2011-02-15 19:16:56 <Diablo-D3> yes.
3221 2011-02-15 19:16:59 <Diablo-D3> its a 4850.
3222 2011-02-15 19:17:26 <andrew12> bk128: i'm sure he'd be glad to have someone buy him a 5970 or two.. or 12
3223 2011-02-15 19:17:26 <bk128> are you waiting for the new ati cards or something?
3224 2011-02-15 19:17:41 <Diablo-D3> cant really afford to buy a new card
3225 2011-02-15 19:18:19 <glassresistor> someone needs to put up good instructions for running opencl on ati cards in 10.10 linux
3226 2011-02-15 19:18:31 <bk128> ah.  do you take donations for your miner?
3227 2011-02-15 19:18:31 <glassresistor> ubuntu* or just linux maybe
3228 2011-02-15 19:19:31 kelvie_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3229 2011-02-15 19:19:40 <lfm> they sposed to make you money, you cant afford not to buy one
3230 2011-02-15 19:19:50 ousado has joined
3231 2011-02-15 19:20:16 <glassresistor> Diablo-D3: 76mhash just from the gpu o na 4850? how many stream procs?
3232 2011-02-15 19:20:44 kelvie_ has joined
3233 2011-02-15 19:21:14 <bk128> Diablo-D3: would you be interested in VNCing into my rig when I build it this weekend and configuring it for like 20BTC?  I have hardware arriving by friday and want to get it running immediately, but I don't have the time to figure out how to configure it all.  I have midterms on monday
3234 2011-02-15 19:21:21 <lfm> 800
3235 2011-02-15 19:21:21 kermit1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3236 2011-02-15 19:21:53 kermit has joined
3237 2011-02-15 19:22:21 aphedox has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3238 2011-02-15 19:23:45 larsivi has joined
3239 2011-02-15 19:25:23 <lfm> bk128: I might consider doing something like that if you were paying 5x that amount and if you were local and Id do it on site, never remote
3240 2011-02-15 19:25:44 plumb` has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
3241 2011-02-15 19:27:04 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 267 seconds)
3242 2011-02-15 19:27:12 larsivi has quit (Client Quit)
3243 2011-02-15 19:27:20 <bk128> lfm: is it too hard to do over ssh?   I'm in chicago. and I can pay max 50 bitcoins (and not really any cash)
3244 2011-02-15 19:27:23 <MartianW> Wow, the miners are really rushing through the blocks.
3245 2011-02-15 19:27:27 <MartianW> ;;bc,stats
3246 2011-02-15 19:27:33 larsivi has joined
3247 2011-02-15 19:27:39 <bk128> bc bot down?
3248 2011-02-15 19:27:48 <MartianW> :-(
3249 2011-02-15 19:28:07 <lfm> down since the net split I think
3250 2011-02-15 19:28:23 <MartianW> Wait, there's a net split on?
3251 2011-02-15 19:28:24 * MartianW gets helmet.
3252 2011-02-15 19:28:32 <lfm> its over
3253 2011-02-15 19:28:51 <lfm> but gribble didnt come back
3254 2011-02-15 19:29:43 <foucist> how accurate do you guys think this is? http://www.taters.net/btcgc.php
3255 2011-02-15 19:29:43 <MartianW> Eh, I don't need him to know the next difficulty will be brutal.
3256 2011-02-15 19:29:50 TD_ has joined
3257 2011-02-15 19:29:52 <foucist> what values should i put in for network growth & size?
3258 2011-02-15 19:30:03 <foucist> like 300 Ghash/s size by now?
3259 2011-02-15 19:30:18 <foucist> was 250ish recently i think
3260 2011-02-15 19:30:34 <Diablo-D3> [02:13:23] <glassresistor> Diablo-D3: 76mhash just from the gpu o na 4850? how many stream procs?
3261 2011-02-15 19:30:36 <Diablo-D3> not enough.
3262 2011-02-15 19:30:49 <Diablo-D3> [02:14:20] <bk128> Diablo-D3: would you be interested in VNCing into my rig when I build it this weekend and configuring it for like 20BTC?  I have hardware arriving by friday and want to get it running immediately, but I don't have the time to figure out how to configure it all.  I have midterms on monday
3263 2011-02-15 19:30:56 <Diablo-D3> bk128: you can do it yourself dude =p
3264 2011-02-15 19:31:27 <foucist> bk128: shoot a message to vladimir i guess?
3265 2011-02-15 19:31:39 <bk128> lol how long does it take?
3266 2011-02-15 19:31:39 <necrodearia> Independent journalist Brandon Jordan described how airport authorities detained him for hours to copy the contents of his laptop computer.
3267 2011-02-15 19:31:49 <lfm> he gave up the idea of remote support too I think
3268 2011-02-15 19:32:09 <bk128> why?
3269 2011-02-15 19:32:10 <lfm> bk128: it might take you months
3270 2011-02-15 19:32:18 <foucist> lfm: oh? guess it's too hard?
3271 2011-02-15 19:32:28 <MartianW> necrodearia, hopefully he had Truecrypt or something similar.
3272 2011-02-15 19:32:35 <lfm> bitcoiners are too cheap
3273 2011-02-15 19:32:36 <bk128> lfm: hahah
3274 2011-02-15 19:33:22 <foucist> so what's the size & growth currently?
3275 2011-02-15 19:33:24 <lfm> they really really wanted a copy of his porn collection
3276 2011-02-15 19:33:50 <ArtForz> 280Gh/s give or take
3277 2011-02-15 19:34:13 <foucist> ArtForz: and growth? :P  i guess that's pretty variable
3278 2011-02-15 19:34:26 <bk128> 280 ghash/sec for everyone on the network?
3279 2011-02-15 19:34:30 <ArtForz> yea
3280 2011-02-15 19:34:32 <ArtForz> hard to tell, growth is mostly in steps
3281 2011-02-15 19:34:33 <bk128> I'm adding another  ghash/sec on friday
3282 2011-02-15 19:34:56 <lfm> judging by the next difficulty estimate groth is as strong as ever
3283 2011-02-15 19:35:10 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: all 5970s?
3284 2011-02-15 19:35:12 <ArtForz> wild guess, about 30-40%/period for a while
3285 2011-02-15 19:35:17 <foucist> slashdot effect and pooling..
3286 2011-02-15 19:35:36 JFK911_ has joined
3287 2011-02-15 19:35:37 JFK911 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3288 2011-02-15 19:35:39 <ArtForz> and price growth overtook difficulty growt. by quite a bit.
3289 2011-02-15 19:36:05 <ArtForz> difficulty/price is less than half what it was mid-dec
3290 2011-02-15 19:36:29 <foucist> interesting
3291 2011-02-15 19:36:34 <ArtForz> and yes, that means mining is *more* profitable now
3292 2011-02-15 19:36:58 <JunK-Y> and its going to be more and more difficult.
3293 2011-02-15 19:36:58 <foucist> also that people are more willing to pay $ instead of mining
3294 2011-02-15 19:37:06 RichardG has joined
3295 2011-02-15 19:37:42 <JunK-Y> foucist: im sure at 280 ghash, some will still do mining :)
3296 2011-02-15 19:37:43 <bk128> I'm paying money to mine (instead of paying to buy)
3297 2011-02-15 19:38:25 <ArtForz> well, *someone* is willing to buy instead of mining
3298 2011-02-15 19:38:33 <RichardG> http://goput.it/ycg.pdf
3299 2011-02-15 19:38:37 <RichardG> another draft of my presentation
3300 2011-02-15 19:38:40 <TD_> is the slashdot effect really so big?
3301 2011-02-15 19:38:42 <JunK-Y> i just bought 2xAMD 6950, too bad i didnt get 2x 5970
3302 2011-02-15 19:38:42 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
3303 2011-02-15 19:38:49 <ArtForz> yes
3304 2011-02-15 19:38:57 TD has joined
3305 2011-02-15 19:39:12 <MartianW> TD, take a look at block explorer.
3306 2011-02-15 19:39:22 <ArtForz> last time we got /. frontpage difficulty quintupled
3307 2011-02-15 19:39:31 <MartianW> The blocks are being generated much more often than 10 minutes.
3308 2011-02-15 19:39:43 <lfm> TD_ there was a big /. effect on bitcoin last july. the hash rate went up about 6 fold in 2 weeks
3309 2011-02-15 19:39:47 TD_ is now known as 20QAAQ89L
3310 2011-02-15 19:39:50 <ArtForz> yep
3311 2011-02-15 19:40:07 <20QAAQ89L> good to hear that. i was the one who submitted the story
3312 2011-02-15 19:40:11 <20QAAQ89L> er
3313 2011-02-15 19:40:14 <ArtForz> only time ever we saw difficulty increase hit the 4x/period limit
3314 2011-02-15 19:40:21 <20QAAQ89L> what just happened to my nick
3315 2011-02-15 19:40:30 <foucist> JunK-Y: yeah i mean, it's a change in the community, community was probably predominantly miners up until december, then it started changing noticeably, people paying for BTC instead of mining
3316 2011-02-15 19:40:36 <RichardG> 20QAAQ89L: netsplit
3317 2011-02-15 19:40:51 <RichardG> someone in the other side had  your nick
3318 2011-02-15 19:41:05 20QAAQ89L is now known as TD[home]
3319 2011-02-15 19:41:06 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3320 2011-02-15 19:41:16 hundfred has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3321 2011-02-15 19:41:22 <foucist> JunK-Y: 5970s are twice the price of 6950 though, twice the watt, etc :P
3322 2011-02-15 19:41:30 <TD[home]> lfm: yes, but bitcoin was much smaller then
3323 2011-02-15 19:41:43 <foucist> maybe i'd do 4x6950 instead of 4x5870 hmm
3324 2011-02-15 19:41:48 <ArtForz> foucist: not really
3325 2011-02-15 19:41:51 sgornick has joined
3326 2011-02-15 19:42:02 <JunK-Y> foucist: with a socket 1155, theres no such board atm
3327 2011-02-15 19:42:21 <JunK-Y> RichardG: i love the graph on page 10, good job.
3328 2011-02-15 19:42:22 <foucist> ArtForz: i can't find any 5970 less than $600 or w/e
3329 2011-02-15 19:42:23 sgornick has quit (Client Quit)
3330 2011-02-15 19:42:30 <ArtForz> ...so?
3331 2011-02-15 19:42:34 <RichardG> JunK-Y: openoffice ;)
3332 2011-02-15 19:42:39 <TD[home]> one thing i've wondered about is where the "natural" rate of mining is. at some point the economic reward vs the cost  vs "doing it for the ecosystem" must balance out
3333 2011-02-15 19:42:40 <foucist> JunK-Y: no such board for what? for 4x6950 ?
3334 2011-02-15 19:42:48 sgornick has joined
3335 2011-02-15 19:42:59 <JunK-Y> RichardG: if you wanna add the i7 2600K, its at 5200 khash/s
3336 2011-02-15 19:43:08 <TD[home]> and presumably there's a formula that relates cost of hardware, electricity, exchange rate and expected future value to come out to some point at which nobody will bother adding mining capacity
3337 2011-02-15 19:43:12 <JunK-Y> foucist: ya with the socket 1155
3338 2011-02-15 19:43:25 <lfm> TD[home]: only "natural" indicator we know of is power cost/hash
3339 2011-02-15 19:43:30 <JunK-Y> theres a bunch of 1156, but not with sandy bridge
3340 2011-02-15 19:43:31 <foucist> btw guys, i imagine there's a strong incentive for bitcoin miners to figure out how to sell their gpu cycles to others (once bitcoin mining becomes unprofitable for their rigs..)
3341 2011-02-15 19:43:31 <bk128> RichardG: nice.  just noticed a typo on p 12 (should be inflation)  also may want to mention anonymity of transfers when used with tor
3342 2011-02-15 19:44:34 <foucist> JunK-Y: would this work for 6950 ? http://ncix.com/products/?sku=55820 (msi 870-G45)
3343 2011-02-15 19:44:55 <RichardG> bk128: okay
3344 2011-02-15 19:45:01 <ArtForz> foucist: sure, why not?
3345 2011-02-15 19:45:01 <lfm> foucist: prolly they just sell the whole rig on ebay
3346 2011-02-15 19:45:09 <ArtForz> works fine with dual 5970s
3347 2011-02-15 19:45:28 <foucist> ArtForz: i was thinking 4x6950.. w/ a 1000W corsair
3348 2011-02-15 19:45:34 <foucist> or 4x5870..
3349 2011-02-15 19:45:52 <ArtForz> well, I'm running those exact boards with dual 5970s
3350 2011-02-15 19:46:04 <JunK-Y> foucist: no, its AM3 870 DDR3   , ive an intel i7 1155
3351 2011-02-15 19:46:15 <ArtForz> who cares?
3352 2011-02-15 19:46:29 <ArtForz> sempron 140 + ram is like $50
3353 2011-02-15 19:46:29 <foucist> ArtForz: cool do you think you can cram a couple extra cards on it no prob ?
3354 2011-02-15 19:46:41 <JunK-Y> i wanna re-use my cpu for something else.
3355 2011-02-15 19:46:44 <foucist> yeah the amd route seems cheap in this case
3356 2011-02-15 19:47:14 <JunK-Y> are you using just dual 5970s or did you put 3 in some machines?
3357 2011-02-15 19:47:16 BlueMatt has joined
3358 2011-02-15 19:47:21 <ArtForz> just duals on those boards
3359 2011-02-15 19:47:42 <ArtForz> quad 5970 on MSI 790FX-GD70
3360 2011-02-15 19:48:07 <ArtForz> also a bunch of dual 5870 on 870-G45s
3361 2011-02-15 19:48:10 <JunK-Y> and you like that board?
3362 2011-02-15 19:48:15 <foucist> is there any practical diff between dual, triple, and quad..  like would it be a real PITA to do quad?
3363 2011-02-15 19:48:16 <ArtForz> (ran out of cheap 5970s)
3364 2011-02-15 19:48:26 <ArtForz> foucist: yes, quad is a major PITA
3365 2011-02-15 19:48:32 <foucist> ArtForz: how come?
3366 2011-02-15 19:48:38 <ArtForz> only did it because I could get a bunch of the 790FXs pretty cheap
3367 2011-02-15 19:48:44 <foucist> would it be easier to do triple instead?
3368 2011-02-15 19:48:53 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: running windows or linux for that board?
3369 2011-02-15 19:48:56 <JunK-Y> (the quad one)
3370 2011-02-15 19:48:57 <ArtForz> because the cards overheat if you just put em right next to each other
3371 2011-02-15 19:49:12 <foucist> ok
3372 2011-02-15 19:49:13 <ArtForz> and you pretty much *need* dual PSUs for 4x5970
3373 2011-02-15 19:49:39 <foucist> yeah but i'm not talking about 5970 here, only 5870 or 6950
3374 2011-02-15 19:49:39 <JunK-Y> ive a 1000W here, dont think its going to be enough.
3375 2011-02-15 19:49:40 <ArtForz> as >1200W PSUs are way too f*in expensive
3376 2011-02-15 19:49:55 <ArtForz> 4*5970 OCed at stock V is pretty much 1200W
3377 2011-02-15 19:50:05 <foucist> i.e. i'm only aiming to get the equivalent of 2x5970
3378 2011-02-15 19:50:07 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3379 2011-02-15 19:50:18 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: did you try running BOINC before with such machines?
3380 2011-02-15 19:50:21 <ArtForz> no
3381 2011-02-15 19:50:29 <JunK-Y> that would be insane ;)
3382 2011-02-15 19:50:54 <lfm> its all insane
3383 2011-02-15 19:51:01 welterde has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3384 2011-02-15 19:51:06 <ArtForz> http://bayimg.com/KAAeaaAdp
3385 2011-02-15 19:51:17 <ArtForz> thats a partially assembled quad box
3386 2011-02-15 19:51:44 <sethsethseth> 4x5970 isnt good cause quadfire doesnt work on them so it doesnt do anything for games
3387 2011-02-15 19:51:51 <ArtForz> those are 5970s
3388 2011-02-15 19:51:55 <foucist> ArtForz: woah, why are the top two cards higher than the bottom two?
3389 2011-02-15 19:52:03 <foucist> adaptors?
3390 2011-02-15 19:52:04 <ArtForz> PCIe risers
3391 2011-02-15 19:52:07 <foucist> ah
3392 2011-02-15 19:52:15 <sethsethseth> crossfire only works on 4 cores
3393 2011-02-15 19:52:19 <bk128> ArtForz: can you just tie the PS_ON lines together to run 2 PSU's on 1 system?
3394 2011-02-15 19:52:23 <ArtForz> yes
3395 2011-02-15 19:52:29 <ArtForz> GND + PS_ON
3396 2011-02-15 19:52:41 <foucist> sethsethseth: ok so 5870/6950 would be fine in that case..
3397 2011-02-15 19:52:50 <JunK-Y> i think i'll sell my 2 6950 and get 2 5970
3398 2011-02-15 19:52:53 <ArtForz> though you normally get GND connected via chassis anyways
3399 2011-02-15 19:53:10 <foucist> JunK-Y: yeah if you can find them and afford the extra few hundred bucks :P
3400 2011-02-15 19:53:14 <ArtForz> in this case I used a explicit connection
3401 2011-02-15 19:53:19 <bk128> yeah, extra ground can't hurt though
3402 2011-02-15 19:53:21 <xelister> heey I recognize that tailed floor stone
3403 2011-02-15 19:53:23 <xelister> father is that you
3404 2011-02-15 19:53:27 <ArtForz> as ... theres no metal chassis ;)
3405 2011-02-15 19:53:50 <sethsethseth> yes crossfire works on 5870's x4
3406 2011-02-15 19:53:51 <ArtForz> fans are 3x scythe ultra kaze 3000
3407 2011-02-15 19:54:12 <JunK-Y> ive paid 777.78$CAD mine.
3408 2011-02-15 19:54:18 <foucist> would 5870/6950 run cool enough to go 4x (sidebyside) in comparison to 4x5970 (which would run a lot hotter in the first place..)
3409 2011-02-15 19:54:38 <RichardG> adding a section on anonimity in the presentation
3410 2011-02-15 19:54:41 * JunK-Y considers water-cooling.
3411 2011-02-15 19:54:46 <sethsethseth> http://blog.zorinaq.com/
3412 2011-02-15 19:54:52 <sethsethseth> he has a good way to cool them cheap
3413 2011-02-15 19:54:54 <ArtForz> foucist: I doubt it
3414 2011-02-15 19:54:54 <xelister> fredix: 6xxx are crap
3415 2011-02-15 19:54:58 <JunK-Y> RichardG: where do you present this?
3416 2011-02-15 19:54:59 <xelister> for mining
3417 2011-02-15 19:55:09 <xelister> RichardG: what presentation
3418 2011-02-15 19:55:11 <ArtForz> sethsethseth: you mean a good way to kill PCIe slots
3419 2011-02-15 19:55:14 <foucist> meh i'm just trying to figure out how to build the cheapest mining rig..  and at this point, 5870s or 6950s seem like the cheapest options
3420 2011-02-15 19:55:19 <foucist> except for the cooling problem..
3421 2011-02-15 19:55:24 <bk128> ArtForz: I'm going to build mine on top of a piece of mdf too.  with some aluminum angle to keep the cards vertical
3422 2011-02-15 19:55:30 <ArtForz> yep
3423 2011-02-15 19:55:32 <JunK-Y> sethsethseth: my 6950 is at 200 mhash
3424 2011-02-15 19:55:44 <ArtForz> thats how I built my first quad 5770 rig
3425 2011-02-15 19:55:46 <foucist> JunK-Y: should be able to get 340 mhash from it
3426 2011-02-15 19:55:54 <foucist> JunK-Y: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3475.0
3427 2011-02-15 19:56:01 <foucist> erm, 320
3428 2011-02-15 19:56:13 <sethsethseth> http://www.techaworld.com/the-worlds-first-inside-out-computer/
3429 2011-02-15 19:56:23 <sethsethseth> just build the computer like this, it looks cool  as hell
3430 2011-02-15 19:56:55 <foucist> JunK-Y: well i guess the msi part doesn't apply to you
3431 2011-02-15 19:56:59 <JunK-Y> foucist: thanks for the link, i'll try that.
3432 2011-02-15 19:57:02 <sethsethseth> ya 5870 or lower is the way to go
3433 2011-02-15 19:57:16 <phantomcircuit> sethsethseth, i like how they call it the first
3434 2011-02-15 19:57:17 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3435 2011-02-15 19:57:27 <ArtForz> people have done that shit for 20 years
3436 2011-02-15 19:57:35 <foucist> sethsethseth: hey, 320 mhash out of 6950 isn't too shabby either, same price as 5870 too
3437 2011-02-15 19:57:36 <sethsethseth> ya its dumb, but good example
3438 2011-02-15 19:57:52 <Diablo-D3> [02:49:34] <sethsethseth> http://www.techaworld.com/the-worlds-first-inside-out-computer/
3439 2011-02-15 19:57:59 <Diablo-D3> first? I dont think so, Tim.
3440 2011-02-15 19:58:02 <foucist> plus 6950 is probably better for more general crunching
3441 2011-02-15 19:58:09 <ArtForz> I had a 386 running on the wall like that (well, except for the flex cable card connection...)
3442 2011-02-15 19:58:45 <Diablo-D3> someone forgot how many people have ran stuff on the bench
3443 2011-02-15 19:58:45 <ArtForz> btw, my 5970s average a bit over 700Mh/s ;)
3444 2011-02-15 19:59:11 <sethsethseth> i think the 5850 is going to be the cheapest/hash actually
3445 2011-02-15 19:59:11 <JunK-Y> how come, ive only like 500 ?
3446 2011-02-15 19:59:15 <ArtForz> custom miner + OC = fun
3447 2011-02-15 19:59:27 <JunK-Y> haa
3448 2011-02-15 19:59:40 <ArtForz> my miner is calmine, 604Mh/s on stock 5970
3449 2011-02-15 19:59:43 <JunK-Y> how many BTC at 280 ghash?
3450 2011-02-15 19:59:54 <JunK-Y> i use m0mchill
3451 2011-02-15 19:59:56 <foucist> sethsethseth: 5830 is actually more hash for the bang
3452 2011-02-15 20:00:01 <ArtForz> ewww
3453 2011-02-15 20:00:03 <ArtForz> 5830 sucks
3454 2011-02-15 20:00:06 <foucist> sethsethseth: but then gotta factor in the cost of teh mobo/case/etc
3455 2011-02-15 20:00:06 <bk128> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AnEN-UY38coAdE9BTklLUDYyWnpfOUxqdnRxWkdmbmc&hl=en&authkey=CIeTjdoD
3456 2011-02-15 20:00:15 <phantomcircuit> sethsethseth, a 5850 is like 200 Mh/s for $200
3457 2011-02-15 20:00:32 <jgarzik> plus power costs :)
3458 2011-02-15 20:00:34 <phantomcircuit> sethsethseth, 5970 is about the same Mh/s/USD
3459 2011-02-15 20:00:34 <luke-jr> pfft
3460 2011-02-15 20:00:35 <bk128> just look at the bottom config.  I need to update my spreadsheet though.  I've been told xfx cards suck and the psu is overkill
3461 2011-02-15 20:00:37 <ArtForz> no need for 2GB ram
3462 2011-02-15 20:00:40 <luke-jr> 5850 is 265 MH/s for $162 ☺
3463 2011-02-15 20:00:45 <foucist> 5830 = 207 mhash / $135 = 1.5    vs 5850 @ 250 mhash/180 = 1.4
3464 2011-02-15 20:00:56 <ArtForz> get a 2*1GB set and use 1 stick each for 2 boxes
3465 2011-02-15 20:01:13 <bk128> that'll save $12
3466 2011-02-15 20:01:16 <ArtForz> so?
3467 2011-02-15 20:01:30 <sethsethseth> i think my roommates computer is 5850 and hes getting 290mhash
3468 2011-02-15 20:01:34 <Diablo-D3> 5830s are broken
3469 2011-02-15 20:01:36 <ArtForz> $10/box over a dozen boxes adds up
3470 2011-02-15 20:01:36 <Diablo-D3> dont buy them
3471 2011-02-15 20:01:39 <luke-jr> sethsethseth: get me his miner :o
3472 2011-02-15 20:01:40 <foucist> Diablo-D3: how's that?
3473 2011-02-15 20:01:49 <Diablo-D3> either get a 5770 or a 5850
3474 2011-02-15 20:01:51 <sethsethseth> wait i am not 100% on this, how do i tell the difference
3475 2011-02-15 20:01:54 <ArtForz> sounds plenty possible
3476 2011-02-15 20:01:57 <sethsethseth> without looking in his case
3477 2011-02-15 20:02:00 <Diablo-D3> foucist: uses as much power as a 5850, but is about as fast as a 5770
3478 2011-02-15 20:02:20 <ArtForz> stock 5850 is close to 250Mh/s using the public CL miners
3479 2011-02-15 20:02:32 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 290000
3480 2011-02-15 20:02:38 <ArtForz> so thats opnly a OC to 840 or so
3481 2011-02-15 20:02:38 <bitcoiner> art did you made calmine ?
3482 2011-02-15 20:02:42 <ArtForz> yes
3483 2011-02-15 20:02:43 <luke-jr> where's the bot?
3484 2011-02-15 20:02:51 <Diablo-D3> the bot didnt autojoin
3485 2011-02-15 20:02:56 <ArtForz> clmine, clmine2, calmine are all my private miners
3486 2011-02-15 20:02:59 <luke-jr> ArtForz: i get 265 MH/s with 5850+poclbm at -f 1
3487 2011-02-15 20:03:08 <ArtForz> luke-jr: stock?
3488 2011-02-15 20:03:12 <sethsethseth> is there a list of command lines people use for the best hash?
3489 2011-02-15 20:03:15 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: using my miner?
3490 2011-02-15 20:03:16 <Diablo-D3> oh\\
3491 2011-02-15 20:03:20 <Diablo-D3> poclbm
3492 2011-02-15 20:03:21 <Diablo-D3> feh
3493 2011-02-15 20:03:22 <Diablo-D3> what slow shit
3494 2011-02-15 20:03:26 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3495 2011-02-15 20:03:26 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: better than Java
3496 2011-02-15 20:03:27 <sethsethseth> on poclbm
3497 2011-02-15 20:03:42 <luke-jr> sethsethseth: be aware, that at -f 1, it isn't AT ALL usable :p
3498 2011-02-15 20:03:43 <bk128> ArtForz: I wasn't arguing.  Just making the observation
3499 2011-02-15 20:03:49 <Diablo-D3> hahaha better my comically oversized ultramensch penis
3500 2011-02-15 20:04:02 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I actually have Python installed.
3501 2011-02-15 20:04:02 <ArtForz> yep
3502 2011-02-15 20:04:16 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: your mom has a python installed in her cunt
3503 2011-02-15 20:04:23 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: fanboy. ;p
3504 2011-02-15 20:04:24 <bitcoiner> art how much u get with those 5770 with ur miner ?
3505 2011-02-15 20:04:44 <ArtForz> about 207Mh/s avg
3506 2011-02-15 20:04:53 <ArtForz> thats OCed to a bit >1000 core
3507 2011-02-15 20:05:22 <ArtForz> 5770s OC like crazy
3508 2011-02-15 20:05:38 <ArtForz> and yes, thats at stock voltage...
3509 2011-02-15 20:05:48 * hozer just ordered a radeon 5770
3510 2011-02-15 20:05:50 <Diablo-D3> yeah they should have released 5790s
3511 2011-02-15 20:06:47 <ArtForz> I'd guess that'd be 192Mh/s or so using the CL miners
3512 2011-02-15 20:06:50 <afed> ArtForz: how fast you go with the 5770
3513 2011-02-15 20:06:53 <afed> ooo
3514 2011-02-15 20:06:57 <afed> i should definitely OC mine
3515 2011-02-15 20:07:00 <Diablo-D3> OVER NIINNNEEE THHOUUSAAAAND
3516 2011-02-15 20:07:06 <ArtForz> my fastest does 1080MHz stable
3517 2011-02-15 20:07:10 <ArtForz> my slowest 1010
3518 2011-02-15 20:07:12 <bk128> what's a decent wattage ps then for the 35 watt sempron and 2x 5870's?
3519 2011-02-15 20:07:16 <afed> they're producing 160 Mh now
3520 2011-02-15 20:07:19 <foucist> sethsethseth: so basically a 5850 is bigger bang for the buck than 5870 ?  290 Mhash for $180  vs 340 Mhash for $290 ?
3521 2011-02-15 20:07:29 <afed> haven't overclocked because i don't like my workstation to crash
3522 2011-02-15 20:07:37 <ArtForz> bk128: a *good* 550 or a decent 650
3523 2011-02-15 20:07:50 <afed> a 5870 should be more like $230
3524 2011-02-15 20:07:59 <sethsethseth> hold on im trying to verify what card he has
3525 2011-02-15 20:08:04 <foucist> afed: canadian prices/supplier here..
3526 2011-02-15 20:08:10 <sethsethseth> the system properties just says 5800 series
3527 2011-02-15 20:08:13 <afed> ah
3528 2011-02-15 20:08:34 <ArtForz> running a "cheap" PSU > 75% load continously usually == dead PSU
3529 2011-02-15 20:08:56 <luke-jr> ArtForz: if you let me use your calminer, I promise not to share it. I only have a 5850, so I can't compete with you even with it :P
3530 2011-02-15 20:08:58 <ArtForz> as in, a $80 650W
3531 2011-02-15 20:09:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: well
3532 2011-02-15 20:09:13 <Diablo-D3> lets define cheap
3533 2011-02-15 20:09:20 <Diablo-D3> cheap means "not rated at continuous load"
3534 2011-02-15 20:09:33 <foucist> afed: yeah newegg shows about $250 for me i guess (for canadian prices)
3535 2011-02-15 20:09:40 <Diablo-D3> so a 200w continuous loud psu (650w peak) would happily run at 90% of that all day long
3536 2011-02-15 20:09:50 <luke-jr> ArtForz: heck, you can even downgrade it so it's 265 MH/s and I'll still be happy (since CAL works with free software)…
3537 2011-02-15 20:09:56 <JunK-Y> foucist: you're canadian too? which province?
3538 2011-02-15 20:09:59 <foucist> afed: assuming HIS or DIAMOND are okay brands
3539 2011-02-15 20:10:01 <foucist> JunK-Y: bc
3540 2011-02-15 20:10:03 <Diablo-D3> and yes, Ive seen cheap psus that are that bad
3541 2011-02-15 20:10:06 <JunK-Y> im in QC
3542 2011-02-15 20:10:10 <bk128> crap.  my ferret just figured out how to get on my desk while i was afk.  spilled a glass of water and that almost soaked my scope
3543 2011-02-15 20:10:11 <foucist> bonjour :P
3544 2011-02-15 20:10:18 <JunK-Y> ;)
3545 2011-02-15 20:10:30 <luke-jr> bk128: … it's a ferret; what do you expect? XD
3546 2011-02-15 20:10:32 <Diablo-D3> ugh
3547 2011-02-15 20:10:37 <Diablo-D3> HIS and diamond suck
3548 2011-02-15 20:10:44 <Diablo-D3> asus, gigabyte, msi, sapphire only plox
3549 2011-02-15 20:10:56 <JunK-Y> i like XFX too
3550 2011-02-15 20:10:58 <foucist> ok gigabyte at $260
3551 2011-02-15 20:11:05 <Diablo-D3> xfx is crap.
3552 2011-02-15 20:11:11 <bk128> luke-jr: It's never gotten on my desk before
3553 2011-02-15 20:11:22 <foucist> Diablo-D3: you like to make strong statements :P
3554 2011-02-15 20:11:23 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: never got one to fail.
3555 2011-02-15 20:11:24 <Diablo-D3> FERRET SUPER POWERS WAAAAAAGH!
3556 2011-02-15 20:11:37 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: give to me, I can make it fail
3557 2011-02-15 20:11:49 <JunK-Y> by oc like crazy?
3558 2011-02-15 20:11:51 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no, I dont like shit to break
3559 2011-02-15 20:11:56 <luke-jr> bk128: it just didn't let you know that it has ;)
3560 2011-02-15 20:12:03 <Diablo-D3> I have isolated it to few brands that have a tendency to not fuck me over
3561 2011-02-15 20:12:13 * bk128 hears this 10x just after ordering 2 xfx cards
3562 2011-02-15 20:12:18 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: run diablominer on it
3563 2011-02-15 20:12:20 <Diablo-D3> DIABLOMINER CRUSHES WEAKLINGS
3564 2011-02-15 20:12:24 <ArtForz> going by brand is pretty much useless
3565 2011-02-15 20:12:29 <Diablo-D3> AND THEN HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THEIR FEMALE RELATIVES
3566 2011-02-15 20:12:31 <xelister> Diablo-D3: why his sucl
3567 2011-02-15 20:12:36 <xelister> *suck
3568 2011-02-15 20:12:45 <hozer> How many GPU's do all of you have running
3569 2011-02-15 20:12:53 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: hahaha
3570 2011-02-15 20:12:57 <Diablo-D3> I HAVE OVER 9000 GPUS
3571 2011-02-15 20:13:00 <jgarzik> 100,000
3572 2011-02-15 20:13:05 <ArtForz> 69
3573 2011-02-15 20:13:08 <Diablo-D3> THEY ARE CRACKING GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATIONS
3574 2011-02-15 20:13:20 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: so i should try clmine?
3575 2011-02-15 20:13:22 yawniek has joined
3576 2011-02-15 20:13:31 <Diablo-D3> SOON THE RECIPE FOR KFC FRIED CHICKEN WILL BE MINE
3577 2011-02-15 20:13:41 <ArtForz> JunK-Y: if you can find it ;)
3578 2011-02-15 20:13:53 <bk128> didn't someone publish it on the net a month ago?
3579 2011-02-15 20:13:54 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: just go work there for 2 weeks, ya'll know  :)
3580 2011-02-15 20:13:55 <ArtForz> kinda pointless though, m0s and diablos now have pretty much the same kernel
3581 2011-02-15 20:14:03 <hozer> jgarzik: who's power bill are you 'borrowing' :P
3582 2011-02-15 20:14:20 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: im sure to little boy in you will share it :)
3583 2011-02-15 20:14:22 <Diablo-D3> yeah, its basically lard, lard, lard, lard, lard, butter, and lard.
3584 2011-02-15 20:14:25 <ArtForz> I published the kernel I used for clmine2 after I got calmine sufficiently "fast enough"
3585 2011-02-15 20:14:41 <bk128> what are the main differences between m0 and diablo?
3586 2011-02-15 20:14:43 <JunK-Y> clmine != calmine?
3587 2011-02-15 20:14:46 <ArtForz> yes
3588 2011-02-15 20:15:03 <bk128> calmine is latest?
3589 2011-02-15 20:15:05 <ArtForz> clmine was my cl miner, clmine2 was a improved version, calmine is ... a cal miner
3590 2011-02-15 20:15:20 <bk128> what's a cal miner?
3591 2011-02-15 20:15:25 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: one uses cl the other usese cal
3592 2011-02-15 20:15:37 <ArtForz> cal = ATIs low level GPGPU framework
3593 2011-02-15 20:15:57 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: dont you want to share them?
3594 2011-02-15 20:16:08 <bk128> like assembly language for gpu's?
3595 2011-02-15 20:16:08 <sethsethseth> DAMMIT idk how to tell which 58xx he has in there
3596 2011-02-15 20:16:13 <ArtForz> errr... why the fuck would I want to?
3597 2011-02-15 20:16:40 <sethsethseth> can anyone think of hardware differences that i can see in dxdiag?
3598 2011-02-15 20:16:47 <JunK-Y> open-src is good, im sure clmine3 could be written after few devs looks at version2
3599 2011-02-15 20:16:49 <ArtForz> grab GPU-Z ?
3600 2011-02-15 20:17:00 <ArtForz> JunK-Y: so what?
3601 2011-02-15 20:17:17 Scootz has joined
3602 2011-02-15 20:17:30 <luke-jr> bk128: m0 is Python; Diablo is Java.
3603 2011-02-15 20:17:38 <jgarzik> buy mrb's CAL miner, if you really want one
3604 2011-02-15 20:17:38 <andrew12> this would probably be a lot easier if i wrote it in C or C++ and then pulled the guts together with ruby :|
3605 2011-02-15 20:17:40 <bk128> ok.
3606 2011-02-15 20:17:47 <jgarzik> or just RTFM
3607 2011-02-15 20:17:53 <sethsethseth> oh ya, that would do it gpu z
3608 2011-02-15 20:18:02 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: that will be appreciated in the community
3609 2011-02-15 20:18:30 <ArtForz> so?
3610 2011-02-15 20:18:33 <hozer> ArtForz: Would you put a price on what it would cost (in bitcoins of course) for the community (or a group) to buy calminer to open-source it? ;)
3611 2011-02-15 20:18:41 <Diablo-D3> I wonder why people think the only difference between my and m0's is just the language
3612 2011-02-15 20:18:44 <Diablo-D3> mine is functionally different
3613 2011-02-15 20:18:50 <bk128> JunK-Y: it would cost him money to release it.  lots
3614 2011-02-15 20:19:11 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3615 2011-02-15 20:19:11 <bk128> how so?
3616 2011-02-15 20:19:28 <JunK-Y> i understand ur point.
3617 2011-02-15 20:19:53 <JunK-Y> almost 100% of my code is open-src.
3618 2011-02-15 20:19:55 <jgarzik> hozer: mrb already has done so
3619 2011-02-15 20:20:04 <Diablo-D3> 100% of my code is open source
3620 2011-02-15 20:20:10 <Diablo-D3> including all the stuff I havent released =O
3621 2011-02-15 20:20:12 <Diablo-D3> er =P
3622 2011-02-15 20:20:22 <ArtForz> jgarzik: his code is also pretty slow ;)
3623 2011-02-15 20:21:02 <bitcoiner> ca va junk-y ?
3624 2011-02-15 20:21:03 <jgarzik> bk128: m0 is python, Diablo is Java, and oclminer by tcatm is in C
3625 2011-02-15 20:21:10 RazielZ has quit ()
3626 2011-02-15 20:21:15 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but mine is very fast
3627 2011-02-15 20:21:20 <hozer> we need a bitcoin miner X-prize ... 100k bitcoins to the miner software/hardware over 1Ghash/sec with the best Hash/watt
3628 2011-02-15 20:21:25 <Diablo-D3> none of them gangbangs gpus like mine
3629 2011-02-15 20:21:30 <bk128> jgarzik: I was asking how they're functionally different
3630 2011-02-15 20:21:34 <jgarzik> ArtForz: heh
3631 2011-02-15 20:21:37 <Diablo-D3> hozer: erm, we'd just give art 100k then
3632 2011-02-15 20:21:39 <luke-jr> oclminer is significantly slower than m0 tho
3633 2011-02-15 20:21:44 <JunK-Y> bitcoiner: oui, toi?
3634 2011-02-15 20:21:44 <Diablo-D3> hozer: art has his own custom fabbed chips for mining
3635 2011-02-15 20:21:53 <afed> hozer: i think the bitcoins themselves are sufficient reward for that advance
3636 2011-02-15 20:22:06 <jgarzik> luke-jr: oclminer speed varies wildly based on hardware.  if you don't have 5970, it might not be for you.
3637 2011-02-15 20:22:27 <yoR> I've heard ArtForz even has Chuck Norris in his basement with pen & paper mining away :-(
3638 2011-02-15 20:22:29 <ArtForz> yep, arrived today, should have first results tomorrow
3639 2011-02-15 20:22:30 <Diablo-D3> what jgarzik is code word for "its slower than diablo's"
3640 2011-02-15 20:22:31 <hozer> yes, but will ArtForz sell me his hardware rigs ;)
3641 2011-02-15 20:22:31 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: any diagram for ur soft?
3642 2011-02-15 20:22:38 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: read the source.
3643 2011-02-15 20:22:42 <jgarzik> ArtForz: AFAIK mrb's cal miner has more performance than OpenCL miner, which is probably sufficient for his customers...
3644 2011-02-15 20:22:47 <bk128> luke-jr: now my ferret is focused only on getting back on the table
3645 2011-02-15 20:22:48 <ArtForz> yes, like 2%
3646 2011-02-15 20:23:00 <Diablo-D3> lol only 2%?
3647 2011-02-15 20:23:04 <Diablo-D3> vs mine?
3648 2011-02-15 20:23:05 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: this is 2000, in 2010 diagrams are great. :)
3649 2011-02-15 20:23:08 <ArtForz> which is kinda pathetic for CAL IL + BFI_INT
3650 2011-02-15 20:23:14 <afed> my 5770 cards are at 90 deg C, fans 100%, at 850 MHz
3651 2011-02-15 20:23:17 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: its only like 600 lines
3652 2011-02-15 20:23:23 <jgarzik> yeah.  I remember your rant on BFI_INT :)
3653 2011-02-15 20:23:25 <Diablo-D3> afed: dont go above 85
3654 2011-02-15 20:23:42 <ArtForz> dont go above 82
3655 2011-02-15 20:23:49 <afed> why should i underclock them, asus should have put adequate fans on them
3656 2011-02-15 20:23:52 <foucist> luke-jr: -f 1 .. OC'd?
3657 2011-02-15 20:23:58 <foucist> afed: what's the Mhash of that?
3658 2011-02-15 20:24:07 <hozer> can I adjust the clock on a 5770 with software like cpufreq-utils, or is it silly bios stuff
3659 2011-02-15 20:24:08 <afed> 160 Mhash
3660 2011-02-15 20:24:18 <luke-jr> foucist: not OC'd
3661 2011-02-15 20:24:32 <ArtForz> afed: thats pretty damn hot
3662 2011-02-15 20:24:36 <afed> ;;bc,stats
3663 2011-02-15 20:24:41 <bk128> so Diablo is faster than m0?
3664 2011-02-15 20:24:45 jjm71119 has joined
3665 2011-02-15 20:24:54 <luke-jr> bk128: probably not.
3666 2011-02-15 20:24:57 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: i'll give a try for sure.
3667 2011-02-15 20:24:57 <bitcoiner> junk-y oui montreal ?
3668 2011-02-15 20:24:58 <luke-jr> bk128: Diablo is being a troll
3669 2011-02-15 20:24:59 <afed> ArtForz: yeah i didn't expect them to be so hot, i'm going to look in the machine when i get home and see what i can do about it
3670 2011-02-15 20:25:01 <bk128> same?
3671 2011-02-15 20:25:03 <foucist> afed: ArtForz is getting 207Mhash on his OC'd 5770, oh he's doing >1000 clock i guess
3672 2011-02-15 20:25:10 <Diablo-D3> bk128: yes
3673 2011-02-15 20:25:11 <Diablo-D3> because it rampages
3674 2011-02-15 20:25:11 <luke-jr> bk128: AFAIK, Diablo and m0 use the same core
3675 2011-02-15 20:25:23 <jgarzik> bk128: Diablo likes to make claims about his miner...
3676 2011-02-15 20:25:25 <afed> the case has big slow 120 mm fans, and the side panel is off
3677 2011-02-15 20:25:27 <bk128> just like a different wrapper?
3678 2011-02-15 20:25:39 <ArtForz> "slow 120mm fans" <- theres your problem
3679 2011-02-15 20:25:39 <afed> so i guess asus just provides crap shit coolers and i need to replace them
3680 2011-02-15 20:25:40 <luke-jr> bk128: yeah. Diablo-D3 uses crappy Java, and m0 uses crappy Python
3681 2011-02-15 20:25:50 <foucist> Diablo-D3: how's powercolor brand'
3682 2011-02-15 20:25:52 <bk128> lol
3683 2011-02-15 20:26:01 <afed> ArtForz: if i replace them they still gotta be quiet
3684 2011-02-15 20:26:02 <JunK-Y> is there any docs for cores?
3685 2011-02-15 20:26:20 <Diablo-D3> Im not trolling
3686 2011-02-15 20:26:20 <Diablo-D3> m0's has yet to multiply queue kernels
3687 2011-02-15 20:26:25 <ArtForz> heres a shot of my old quad 5770: http://bayimg.com/nAOAgaACJ
3688 2011-02-15 20:26:27 Keefe_ is now known as Keefe
3689 2011-02-15 20:26:37 <Diablo-D3> Im probably getting at least 1% more performance than his
3690 2011-02-15 20:26:53 <afed> ArtForz: nice duct
3691 2011-02-15 20:26:54 <Diablo-D3> similar kernel
3692 2011-02-15 20:26:58 <Diablo-D3> m0 switched to art's after I did
3693 2011-02-15 20:27:16 <foucist> Diablo-D3: powercolor 5770 radeons? :P
3694 2011-02-15 20:27:19 <ArtForz> the cards were running at 0% fan ;)
3695 2011-02-15 20:27:28 <bk128> ArtForz: why is there mdf/hardboard over the psu?  get more airflow over the heatsinks ?
3696 2011-02-15 20:27:31 <Diablo-D3> foucist: worst shit
3697 2011-02-15 20:27:35 <foucist> awesome
3698 2011-02-15 20:27:40 <Diablo-D3> foucist: there isnt a brand worse than powercolor
3699 2011-02-15 20:27:40 <afed> did you perhaps remove the fans for better flow from the big fan?
3700 2011-02-15 20:27:44 <ArtForz> yep
3701 2011-02-15 20:27:48 <afed> nice
3702 2011-02-15 20:27:53 <foucist> Diablo-D3: definitely a cheesy name so i
3703 2011-02-15 20:27:56 <Diablo-D3> foucist: poweroclor knowingly ships broken cards and doesnt care
3704 2011-02-15 20:27:56 <foucist> i'm not surprised
3705 2011-02-15 20:28:00 <foucist> lol
3706 2011-02-15 20:28:07 <bk128> oh, wait, the cards are under there
3707 2011-02-15 20:28:10 <afed> did your cards come with heat sinks designed for flow straight through like that?
3708 2011-02-15 20:28:14 <ArtForz> yes
3709 2011-02-15 20:28:17 <afed> i think mine are shaped for the fan in the center
3710 2011-02-15 20:28:23 <ArtForz> sapphire 5770s with fan in center
3711 2011-02-15 20:28:26 <afed> so i'd probably need to put on different sinks to do that
3712 2011-02-15 20:28:52 jjm71119 has quit (Client Quit)
3713 2011-02-15 20:28:53 <ArtForz> these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102873&cm_re=5770-_-14-102-873-_-Product
3714 2011-02-15 20:28:57 <afed> stats bot down?
3715 2011-02-15 20:29:00 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: wheres the screenshot of those 4x5970 boxes you built
3716 2011-02-15 20:29:11 Keefe has quit (Changing host)
3717 2011-02-15 20:29:11 Keefe has joined
3718 2011-02-15 20:29:13 <ArtForz> http://bayimg.com/eABDfaAdd ?
3719 2011-02-15 20:29:14 luke-jr_ has joined
3720 2011-02-15 20:29:24 <afed> i don't want any downtime until after the difficulty jumps
3721 2011-02-15 20:29:34 <Diablo-D3> yeah that
3722 2011-02-15 20:29:43 <Diablo-D3> see, you're not mining bitcoins until you're THAT crazy
3723 2011-02-15 20:29:49 ne0futur_ has joined
3724 2011-02-15 20:29:55 <afed> ArtForz: i have these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121363&cm_re=asus_5770-_-14-121-363-_-Product
3725 2011-02-15 20:29:56 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: btw, what wattage are those psus? 1200?
3726 2011-02-15 20:29:58 fahadsadah has joined
3727 2011-02-15 20:30:02 <ArtForz> 1000 each
3728 2011-02-15 20:30:23 <ArtForz> afed: yeah, that cooler... sucks
3729 2011-02-15 20:30:39 asherkin_ has joined
3730 2011-02-15 20:30:50 <afed> ArtForz: can you recommend a replacement?
3731 2011-02-15 20:30:55 <edcba> ArtForz: that's awful
3732 2011-02-15 20:30:59 <bk128> ArtForz: what brand psu's do you use?
3733 2011-02-15 20:31:20 <ArtForz> nowadays, SuperFlower 80+ gold
3734 2011-02-15 20:31:23 <foucist> do you guys worry about ati driver support in linux?
3735 2011-02-15 20:31:23 <jgarzik> afed: yes, gribble bot is down
3736 2011-02-15 20:31:34 <ArtForz> stay the fuck away from Andyson K series 80+ gold PSUs
3737 2011-02-15 20:31:36 <foucist> like do you worry about 6950 radeon being supported for example?
3738 2011-02-15 20:31:37 <jgarzik> foucist: worry in what way?
3739 2011-02-15 20:31:48 <foucist> jgarzik: i hear ati driver support is terrible?
3740 2011-02-15 20:31:50 <jgarzik> foucist: ATI will always support Linux
3741 2011-02-15 20:31:54 <foucist> compared to nvidia ?
3742 2011-02-15 20:32:02 <jgarzik> lol
3743 2011-02-15 20:32:13 <hozer> ArtForz: what did you use for a riser for those rigs in the picture
3744 2011-02-15 20:32:17 <ArtForz> they have a major design/assembly flaw and the 12V rectifiers blow up
3745 2011-02-15 20:32:27 <afed> ArtForz: thanks for the images
3746 2011-02-15 20:32:35 <ArtForz> hozer: sec, lemme find linky
3747 2011-02-15 20:32:36 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: your miner is using which core?
3748 2011-02-15 20:32:56 <ArtForz> http://www.dhgate.com/pci-e-express-x16-riser-card-1-slot-with/p-ff8080812c305fe5012c367decb86967.html
3749 2011-02-15 20:33:13 <bk128> ArtForz: also, where do you get the superflower psu's?  are they cheap?
3750 2011-02-15 20:33:20 jrabbit_ has joined
3751 2011-02-15 20:33:23 <bk128> and have you had a lot of hardware die running that many cards?
3752 2011-02-15 20:33:45 DoctorSocks has joined
3753 2011-02-15 20:33:56 <hozer> what I really want is a card that comes with a waterblock instead of fans from the manufacturer
3754 2011-02-15 20:34:00 CIA-57 has joined
3755 2011-02-15 20:34:10 asherkin_ is now known as asherkin
3756 2011-02-15 20:34:15 <ArtForz> besides those andyson PSUs ... not really
3757 2011-02-15 20:34:22 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: its called a kernel, dude
3758 2011-02-15 20:34:37 <ArtForz> one 5970 killed by overvolting with a accelero cooler
3759 2011-02-15 20:34:56 <ArtForz> one 5770 killed by fan failure while running overvolted
3760 2011-02-15 20:35:05 <foucist> anyone know where i can buy some 5970s at $500 or so ? :P
3761 2011-02-15 20:35:23 grubles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3762 2011-02-15 20:35:27 <ArtForz> foucist: where? no clue. when? about 2 months ago.
3763 2011-02-15 20:35:52 <ArtForz> should've bought 5970s while they were cheap and plenty
3764 2011-02-15 20:35:59 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3765 2011-02-15 20:36:03 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: if its java, you're not talking directly to the kernel
3766 2011-02-15 20:36:15 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3767 2011-02-15 20:36:25 <hozer> okay, what motherboard has 4 slots?
3768 2011-02-15 20:36:29 docl has joined
3769 2011-02-15 20:36:31 <ArtForz> bk128: for the superflower PSUs, I pay about $150 a pop for the 1kW 80+ gold units
3770 2011-02-15 20:36:44 <hozer> ArtForz: you are running over a 1KW of power, aren't you?
3771 2011-02-15 20:36:49 <bk128> I cant find them anywhere
3772 2011-02-15 20:36:49 <bk128> ebay?
3773 2011-02-15 20:36:58 <ArtForz> germany :P
3774 2011-02-15 20:37:06 <ArtForz> hozer: lol?
3775 2011-02-15 20:37:08 DoctorSocks has quit (Client Quit)
3776 2011-02-15 20:37:10 <bk128> lulz
3777 2011-02-15 20:37:11 <lfm> hozer mnote 2 psu in pix
3778 2011-02-15 20:37:13 <foucist> ArtForz: :P
3779 2011-02-15 20:37:21 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: any link when you started all this?
3780 2011-02-15 20:37:28 <bitcoiner> junk-y t de ou au qc ?
3781 2011-02-15 20:37:48 <ArtForz> 1280W per box
3782 2011-02-15 20:37:53 genjix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3783 2011-02-15 20:38:09 <JunK-Y> bitcoiner: mtl
3784 2011-02-15 20:38:10 <JunK-Y> toi?
3785 2011-02-15 20:38:22 <bitcoiner> pareil mtl-est  toi ?
3786 2011-02-15 20:38:29 <JunK-Y> st-leonard
3787 2011-02-15 20:38:32 <bk128> you live in germany?
3788 2011-02-15 20:38:39 <ArtForz> me? yea.
3789 2011-02-15 20:38:45 <bitcoiner> tu run quoi ?
3790 2011-02-15 20:38:47 <bk128> cool
3791 2011-02-15 20:38:53 darsk1ez has joined
3792 2011-02-15 20:39:00 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: no, its called an opencl kernel
3793 2011-02-15 20:39:15 <foucist> ArtForz: btw, what's it mean when a mobo has 2 PCI-e 2.0 but one is at x16 and the other is at x4 (and it supports crossfire) ?  is that good enough?
3794 2011-02-15 20:39:20 <lfm> has anyone looked at directcompute msoft thingy?
3795 2011-02-15 20:39:28 da2ce7 has joined
3796 2011-02-15 20:39:30 <ArtForz> foucist: good enough
3797 2011-02-15 20:39:35 <foucist> i think i heard the x part doesn't matter too much for this type of thing?
3798 2011-02-15 20:39:44 genjix has joined
3799 2011-02-15 20:39:47 <foucist> ArtForz: does the crossfire somehow make both cards operate like they're on x16 both ?
3800 2011-02-15 20:39:49 <ArtForz> yea
3801 2011-02-15 20:40:03 <ArtForz> even a PCIe 1.0 x1 only slows mining down by < 1% compared to 2.0 x16
3802 2011-02-15 20:40:12 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: check github
3803 2011-02-15 20:40:17 <ArtForz> foucist: nope
3804 2011-02-15 20:40:31 <ArtForz> thing is, we're really not doing much I/O to/from the cards
3805 2011-02-15 20:40:32 <JunK-Y> ha, you're refering to the ocl kernel, i though the linux kernel.
3806 2011-02-15 20:40:38 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: url?
3807 2011-02-15 20:40:51 * hozer drove through germany a week ago ;)
3808 2011-02-15 20:41:05 <hozer> ArtForz: what's your electric rate
3809 2011-02-15 20:41:26 <hozer> I get around $0.08/kwh residential in Iowa
3810 2011-02-15 20:41:40 jb55 has joined
3811 2011-02-15 20:41:47 ne0futur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3812 2011-02-15 20:41:55 <ArtForz> about $0.28/kWh
3813 2011-02-15 20:42:12 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: check the thread
3814 2011-02-15 20:42:31 <hozer> I should be renting you space in my basement :P
3815 2011-02-15 20:42:50 <ArtForz> well, thats in summer, in winter I get power pretty much free
3816 2011-02-15 20:43:42 echelon has joined
3817 2011-02-15 20:44:15 <ArtForz> electric heating doesn't cost more than electric heating ;)
3818 2011-02-15 20:44:30 <hozer> So I have the machine in my basement changing clock speed based on the bulk power market real-time price... can I adjust a 5770 clock up/down from software? (like underclock it to half speed)
3819 2011-02-15 20:44:39 grubles has joined
3820 2011-02-15 20:44:55 * jgarzik wonders what baseboard electricity draw is... (baseboard heating, those long electrical heaters mounted near the floor in some houses and apartments)
3821 2011-02-15 20:45:19 <ArtForz> "a lot" is a good guess
3822 2011-02-15 20:45:20 <presence> so if I can telnet to port 8333/tcp on a node, yet the miner is having trouble communicating, what could it be?
3823 2011-02-15 20:45:21 <lfm> hozer you could but might be easier to just stop if its to expensive
3824 2011-02-15 20:45:29 <hozer> if its US and 110V, ~1-1.5KW
3825 2011-02-15 20:46:01 <hozer> baseboard heat is ~1-5KW
3826 2011-02-15 20:46:10 <RichardG> another draft of my bitcoin presentation
3827 2011-02-15 20:46:52 <hozer> lfm: yeah.. right now it's just proof of concept.. I have to find a way to access that real-time power market
3828 2011-02-15 20:46:58 <ArtForz> from my pov 110V sucks
3829 2011-02-15 20:46:58 <luke-jr_> my maildir git repo has over 105,000 commits now. did I break the record yet?
3830 2011-02-15 20:47:26 <RichardG> http://goput.it/h7a.pdf
3831 2011-02-15 20:47:31 <hozer> ArtForz: 480V 3-phase all the way ;)
3832 2011-02-15 20:47:33 <lfm> hozer might need to be in industrial zone or something
3833 2011-02-15 20:47:49 <jgarzik> luke-jr_: versus what?  kernel repo has more commits than that.
3834 2011-02-15 20:48:14 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: hmm, so not yet
3835 2011-02-15 20:48:31 <luke-jr_> every LKML email should be a commit… :p
3836 2011-02-15 20:48:37 <luke-jr_> so it shouldn't take *too* long to catch up
3837 2011-02-15 20:48:50 <hozer> lfm: I think I need to build a rack that draws 10KW max and do a little demo for the municipal utility
3838 2011-02-15 20:49:09 <lfm> sounds like fun
3839 2011-02-15 20:49:26 <hozer> 5 might be more realistic.. 10kw in a rack is awefully hard to get rid of
3840 2011-02-15 20:49:39 <ArtForz> 10kW is pretty much nothing
3841 2011-02-15 20:49:41 <luke-jr_> jgarzik: over 733,000 files; does that break a record? XD
3842 2011-02-15 20:49:54 <ArtForz> thats < 250W/U
3843 2011-02-15 20:50:32 <hozer> I guess I have seen IBM boxen that spec 60KW/rack
3844 2011-02-15 20:50:36 <ArtForz> yea
3845 2011-02-15 20:50:39 <ArtForz> things get iffy > 750W/U
3846 2011-02-15 20:50:57 <foucist> is a crossfire mobo important at all?
3847 2011-02-15 20:51:01 ne0futur has joined
3848 2011-02-15 20:51:04 <foucist> like what's the cheapest sort of mobo i can go with (amd)
3849 2011-02-15 20:51:08 <foucist> for 2x5850
3850 2011-02-15 20:51:17 <ArtForz> pretty much need custom racks and crazy cooling setups beyond there
3851 2011-02-15 20:51:31 ne0futur has joined
3852 2011-02-15 20:51:38 <lfm> foucist: if its rated for crossfire you have some assurance it will work with two cards
3853 2011-02-15 20:51:40 <luke-jr_> foucist: Crossfire is a *problem* :p
3854 2011-02-15 20:51:53 <grubles> i would research your mobo + psu before anything. some mobos are buggy and dont allow 2 cards
3855 2011-02-15 20:51:59 <luke-jr_> lfm: but you still want to disable it
3856 2011-02-15 20:52:35 <foucist> luke-jr_: a problem how?
3857 2011-02-15 20:52:42 <ArtForz> up to 30kW/rack or so is manageable using standard setups
3858 2011-02-15 20:52:48 <luke-jr_> foucist: dunno how, it screws mining up
3859 2011-02-15 20:53:06 <foucist> luke-jr_: yeah, but that's disableable at the software level i think?
3860 2011-02-15 20:53:10 <lfm> foucist: for mining you disable crossfire, take off the top connector
3861 2011-02-15 20:53:12 <foucist> luke-jr_: just wondering about the hardware
3862 2011-02-15 20:53:14 <foucist> oh
3863 2011-02-15 20:53:15 <ArtForz> when in doubt, needs more cowbe... airflow
3864 2011-02-15 20:53:17 Gang has joined
3865 2011-02-15 20:54:00 <RichardG> http://goput.it/str/h7a.pdf
3866 2011-02-15 20:54:08 <RichardG> is my fact sheet about i2p in the last page correct
3867 2011-02-15 20:54:08 <hozer> whats funny is then the facility (datacenter cooling) takes 30% of the power of the machine itself
3868 2011-02-15 20:54:39 <ArtForz> thats mainly thanks to paranoid people
3869 2011-02-15 20:54:58 <ArtForz> you dont NEED AC 24/7 for a datacenter
3870 2011-02-15 20:55:04 <foucist> would a cheapo $36 msi mobo liek this be fine? http://ncix.com/products/?sku=40887  it's got 2 pci-e, one at x16 so i guess that's good enough? no crossfire
3871 2011-02-15 20:55:14 <foucist> good enough to slap 2x5850 on?
3872 2011-02-15 20:55:20 <ArtForz> servers run on filtered ambient air plenty fine
3873 2011-02-15 20:55:40 <ArtForz> but "it might cause issues" so... let's waste more power!
3874 2011-02-15 20:55:46 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3875 2011-02-15 20:56:37 jb55 has quit (Quit: bye)
3876 2011-02-15 20:56:48 <ArtForz> btw, those 80mm deltas are fucking crazy
3877 2011-02-15 20:56:52 <lfm> yup if they cant bring the room down to 15c they think it will catch fire
3878 2011-02-15 20:57:03 <ArtForz> yea
3879 2011-02-15 20:57:31 <ArtForz> didnt one major hw mfg run a whole DC at 40°C to prove a point?
3880 2011-02-15 20:57:42 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3881 2011-02-15 20:57:52 <lfm> they put it in a tent all summer
3882 2011-02-15 20:57:53 <JunK-Y> any link to start my own pool?
3883 2011-02-15 20:58:11 <RichardG> JunK-Y: in a private pool you could just use a bitcoind
3884 2011-02-15 20:58:17 <KBme> microsoft ran servers in a tent for about a year
3885 2011-02-15 20:58:18 <RichardG> in a public pool, search the forums for poold.py
3886 2011-02-15 20:58:37 <ArtForz> nah, I think it was HP
3887 2011-02-15 20:58:48 <KBme> microsoft+hp
3888 2011-02-15 20:58:55 <ArtForz> or maybe IBM, can't remember
3889 2011-02-15 20:59:15 <KBme> http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/22/new-from-microsoft-data-centers-in-tents/
3890 2011-02-15 20:59:21 <KBme> fail
3891 2011-02-15 20:59:37 * KBme hands a bucket of fail to ArtForz
3892 2011-02-15 20:59:55 <hozer> I wrote a proposal to run a Rackable system under ambient temps in Iowa (40C in summer)
3893 2011-02-15 21:00:10 <JunK-Y> RichardG: then ive to wrote my own wrapper for the web and everything?
3894 2011-02-15 21:00:15 <ArtForz> wasn't a tent, normal server room, ran on ambient air, at 40°C outside temp in summer.
3895 2011-02-15 21:00:40 <ArtForz> worked just fine, techs werent exactly thrilled...
3896 2011-02-15 21:00:45 <KBme> oh you were talking about ambient temp
3897 2011-02-15 21:00:46 <KBme> sorry
3898 2011-02-15 21:00:47 <hozer> I'll just have to put some miners in the garage in my parent's farm
3899 2011-02-15 21:00:54 <echelon> Fatal error: Call to undefined method Sport::get_sport_periods() in /var/www/system/application/models/Tabs.php on line 22
3900 2011-02-15 21:01:18 <lfm> hozer dust is prolly bigger problem than temps
3901 2011-02-15 21:01:36 <hozer> yes, I think that's true
3902 2011-02-15 21:01:41 <ArtForz> iirc they *did* use filters and dehumidifiers
3903 2011-02-15 21:01:49 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
3904 2011-02-15 21:01:49 da2ce7 has joined
3905 2011-02-15 21:01:53 <bk128> I wish we didn't have 110v power.  my electric heater power cord gets hot all the time (UL listed heater) and it's still a waste of copper
3906 2011-02-15 21:01:59 <ArtForz> yep
3907 2011-02-15 21:02:05 <ArtForz> 110 is such a waste of copper
3908 2011-02-15 21:02:24 <hozer> if you do it right, you never run the dehumidifier cause even if it's saturated when it comes in, the temp rise keeps it from condensing
3909 2011-02-15 21:02:36 <ArtForz> yes
3910 2011-02-15 21:03:01 <ArtForz> iirc problem is stuff like intake grilles
3911 2011-02-15 21:03:10 <RichardG> JunK-Y: poold already sends stats to sql
3912 2011-02-15 21:03:14 <RichardG> the web frontent is your part
3913 2011-02-15 21:03:17 <ArtForz> you *can* get condensation on there in bad conditions
3914 2011-02-15 21:03:18 <RichardG> *frontend
3915 2011-02-15 21:03:46 <JunK-Y> cool
3916 2011-02-15 21:03:48 <bk128> too many heating and cooling cycles is also bad, right?
3917 2011-02-15 21:04:02 <ArtForz> ... not really
3918 2011-02-15 21:04:05 <JunK-Y> and where do we get the sql structure and everything?
3919 2011-02-15 21:04:24 <ArtForz> otherwise shit would die from going 0-100-0% load pretty quickly
3920 2011-02-15 21:04:51 <bk128> I mean thousands of cycles.  everything expanding and contracting a little each tme
3921 2011-02-15 21:04:57 <foucist> ArtForz: stupid q, ATX mobos are better than mATX mobos for this right?  more space between stuff?
3922 2011-02-15 21:05:01 <jgarzik> JunK-Y: read the code :)
3923 2011-02-15 21:05:09 <bk128> I was reading environmental docs off hp's site once
3924 2011-02-15 21:05:17 <grubles> offtopic question.....is there an uptime command for win 7?
3925 2011-02-15 21:05:26 <ArtForz> well... kinda
3926 2011-02-15 21:05:40 <JunK-Y> jgarzik: i'll write some docs
3927 2011-02-15 21:05:49 <bk128> probably just more paranoia though
3928 2011-02-15 21:05:49 <foucist> ArtForz: are you using mATX mobos at all?
3929 2011-02-15 21:05:52 <ArtForz> no
3930 2011-02-15 21:05:57 jb55 has joined
3931 2011-02-15 21:06:25 prax has joined
3932 2011-02-15 21:06:26 <ArtForz> iirc most stuff is specced for < 100ppm failure rate at 3000 max operating temp range cycles
3933 2011-02-15 21:06:27 <xelister> o.c. 5770 850->945 and still holding!
3934 2011-02-15 21:06:33 <xelister> am I lucky or wat
3935 2011-02-15 21:06:51 <ArtForz> again, my *slowest* 5770 runs 1010 ;)
3936 2011-02-15 21:06:56 <xelister> ArtForz: omg
3937 2011-02-15 21:07:00 * xelister RAGE
3938 2011-02-15 21:07:08 <xelister> fuck you all
3939 2011-02-15 21:07:13 <grubles> is ocing these cards that you will supposedly run 24/7 a good idea for longevity?
3940 2011-02-15 21:07:15 <ArtForz> iirc need to hack bios to go >960 with linux
3941 2011-02-15 21:07:18 * xelister sets 960 clock like a boss
3942 2011-02-15 21:07:29 <ArtForz> who cares
3943 2011-02-15 21:08:09 <xelister> yey it works @ 960
3944 2011-02-15 21:08:13 <grubles> well...one example would be the person who bought the hardware
3945 2011-02-15 21:08:14 <ArtForz> the GPUs are probably going on ebay in a few months anyways
3946 2011-02-15 21:08:17 <xelister> ArtForz: normal fans on thoes cards? failing fast?
3947 2011-02-15 21:08:22 <bk128> ArtForz: so do residential locations in germany really get 3phase power?
3948 2011-02-15 21:08:22 <JunK-Y> ArtForz: wanna share how many btc do you make per day?
3949 2011-02-15 21:08:26 <ArtForz> bk128: yes
3950 2011-02-15 21:08:48 <bk128> I've never seen 3 phase in the U.S.  all split leg 120/240v
3951 2011-02-15 21:08:54 <bk128> single phase
3952 2011-02-15 21:08:59 <ArtForz> yeah, .de is different
3953 2011-02-15 21:09:30 <bk128> different/ better.  It's definitely more efficient for electric motors like an HVAC fans and stuff
3954 2011-02-15 21:09:37 <lfm> bk128: industrial or sometimes farms have 3 phase
3955 2011-02-15 21:09:37 <ArtForz> in normal single home developments you usually have 35A 3-phase
3956 2011-02-15 21:10:01 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 177
3957 2011-02-15 21:10:06 <bk128> lfm: yeah.  I'm in chicago.  most commercial locations and industrial have 3phase here
3958 2011-02-15 21:10:56 <xelister> ArtForz: what program you on windows to program bios?  what volate and other options?
3959 2011-02-15 21:11:04 <bk128> are switching psu's more efficient when you're putting in 240 or 120?  If 240 is more efficient, I might make a custom cable to pull from 2 circuits in my apartment for the 240
3960 2011-02-15 21:11:24 <bk128> or wait, maybe I cant do that without an isolation transformer
3961 2011-02-15 21:11:40 <ArtForz> xelister: dos floppy w/ atiflash for flashing, windows + RBE for editing
3962 2011-02-15 21:11:50 <ArtForz> bk128: errr... normally you can
3963 2011-02-15 21:11:52 <xelister> News flash:  anti-gov terrorist using terrormoney found dead in his aparment after trying to steal electrical power or something
3964 2011-02-15 21:12:18 <RichardG> xelister: use an online calculator, gribble's timing out atm due to freenode ddoses
3965 2011-02-15 21:12:24 <RichardG> also how is your cpu miners' fund going
3966 2011-02-15 21:12:46 <ArtForz> PSUs specced for 100-240 can't rely on having phase + neutral
3967 2011-02-15 21:12:52 <bk128> ArtForz: run it at 240?  yeah, but with single phase split leg it's different from regular 240 power
3968 2011-02-15 21:12:58 <xelister> RichardG: developing kind of pool perhaps. we will see ;)
3969 2011-02-15 21:13:23 <lfm> bk128: you might be able to do it from a regular kitchen double outlet
3970 2011-02-15 21:13:24 <ArtForz> so the whole primary is floating and secondary GND is connected to safety earth
3971 2011-02-15 21:13:26 <bk128> I'll use an old one and see if it starts on fire
3972 2011-02-15 21:13:30 <xelister> bk128: put on some t-shirt with a political statement, for the news paper photo
3973 2011-02-15 21:13:40 <xelister> bk128: before you meddle with electrical lines
3974 2011-02-15 21:13:47 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3,
3975 2011-02-15 21:13:48 <bk128> :)
3976 2011-02-15 21:13:53 <UukGoblin> on old november version:
3977 2011-02-15 21:13:55 <ArtForz> and yes, usually running at 240 gives about 4-5% higher efficiency compared to 110
3978 2011-02-15 21:14:02 <UukGoblin> Error: Compilation from LLVMIR binary to IL text failed!
3979 2011-02-15 21:14:02 <UukGoblin> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Failed to build program on Cypress at com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner$DeviceState.<init>(DiabloMiner.java:362) at com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner.execute(DiabloMiner.java:198) at com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner.main(DiabloMiner.java:87)
3980 2011-02-15 21:14:09 <UukGoblin> on new one just "compilation failed"
3981 2011-02-15 21:14:19 <ArtForz> most PSUs that barely do 80+ silver @ 110 easily reach gold efficiency at 230
3982 2011-02-15 21:14:23 <UukGoblin> as in "Internal error: Compilation failed.
3983 2011-02-15 21:14:23 <UukGoblin> [2/15/11 9:05:31 PM] ERROR: Failed to build program on Cypress (#6)
3984 2011-02-15 21:14:24 <xelister> UukGoblin: lol you suck at using Diablo-D3's miner ;P
3985 2011-02-15 21:14:32 <xelister> UukGoblin: for me it just worked =)
3986 2011-02-15 21:14:35 <bk128> ArtForz: I'd be doing it mostly to avoid flipping the 15A breakers we have in our apartment.  one goes all the time
3987 2011-02-15 21:14:40 <UukGoblin> first 5 cypresses added fine, breaks on adding 6th
3988 2011-02-15 21:14:50 <UukGoblin> xelister, do you run it with 4x 5970?
3989 2011-02-15 21:14:52 <xelister> bk128: REPLACE IT WITH A METAL WIRE. Like a boss
3990 2011-02-15 21:15:00 <ArtForz> found it
3991 2011-02-15 21:15:03 <ArtForz> http://media.digikey.com/PDF/Data%20Sheets/Delta%20PDFs/QFR0812DE-F00.pdf
3992 2011-02-15 21:15:08 <xelister> UukGoblin: no... =)
3993 2011-02-15 21:15:26 <ArtForz> those things at 100% sound like they're trying to take off
3994 2011-02-15 21:15:44 <JunK-Y> UukGoblin: what kind of cypress?
3995 2011-02-15 21:16:03 larsig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3996 2011-02-15 21:16:15 <ArtForz> but *shrug* they're cheap and move a shitload of air
3997 2011-02-15 21:16:17 <xelister> JunK-Y: hill
3998 2011-02-15 21:16:28 <UukGoblin> JunK-Y, the 5970 one
3999 2011-02-15 21:16:36 <xelister> are there other cypresses?
4000 2011-02-15 21:16:37 larsig has joined
4001 2011-02-15 21:16:44 <andrew12> hmm
4002 2011-02-15 21:16:55 <JunK-Y> which board are you using to fit 5 cards?
4003 2011-02-15 21:17:00 <xelister> oh, 58xx are cypress too
4004 2011-02-15 21:17:04 <ArtForz> yes
4005 2011-02-15 21:17:11 <JunK-Y> xelister: bingo :)
4006 2011-02-15 21:17:16 <ArtForz> probably 2*5970+2*5870
4007 2011-02-15 21:17:20 <JunK-Y> 5970 is just 2 5870
4008 2011-02-15 21:17:35 <ArtForz> 2 5870 at 5850 clocks ;)
4009 2011-02-15 21:17:35 <UukGoblin> I fit 4 cards
4010 2011-02-15 21:17:39 <ArtForz> and 5850 voltage
4011 2011-02-15 21:17:47 <UukGoblin> on MSI
4012 2011-02-15 21:17:49 <bk128> ArtForz: wow 100cfm with an 80mm fan
4013 2011-02-15 21:17:51 <UukGoblin> I'm thinking of fitting 5 later on
4014 2011-02-15 21:17:54 <andrew12> hmm
4015 2011-02-15 21:17:58 <xelister> UukGoblin: using raisers?
4016 2011-02-15 21:18:02 <UukGoblin> yes
4017 2011-02-15 21:18:11 <xelister> UukGoblin: what you have 5 pci-e connectors? what mobo is that
4018 2011-02-15 21:18:17 <ArtForz> bk128: yeah
4019 2011-02-15 21:18:32 <bk128> ArtForz: why do you use 80mm's?
4020 2011-02-15 21:18:43 <ArtForz> and they're only like $16 a pop
4021 2011-02-15 21:19:03 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: [04:07:09] <UukGoblin> Error: Compilation from LLVMIR binary to IL text failed!
4022 2011-02-15 21:19:06 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: driver bug
4023 2011-02-15 21:19:17 <Diablo-D3> Im not responsible for driver bugs.
4024 2011-02-15 21:19:19 <ArtForz> because my new miners are 2Us
4025 2011-02-15 21:19:26 <UukGoblin> have you seen that sort of shit?
4026 2011-02-15 21:19:34 <UukGoblin> it only happened after I added the fourth 5970 ;-P
4027 2011-02-15 21:19:47 <UukGoblin> xelister, there are multiple...
4028 2011-02-15 21:19:51 <Diablo-D3> UukGoblin: what driver?
4029 2011-02-15 21:19:58 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, 10.10, the same as earlier
4030 2011-02-15 21:20:08 <Diablo-D3> I dont think 10.10 supports 8 gpus
4031 2011-02-15 21:20:12 <ArtForz> it does
4032 2011-02-15 21:20:16 <bk128> ArtForz: gpu miners or asic miners?
4033 2011-02-15 21:20:22 <ArtForz> breaks with 9 though
4034 2011-02-15 21:20:37 <ArtForz> bk128: both
4035 2011-02-15 21:21:27 <hozer> ArtForz: how many BTC will you sell one of those 2U miners for ;)
4036 2011-02-15 21:22:01 <UukGoblin> I'll check, maybe the card is fucked
4037 2011-02-15 21:22:09 <bk128> ArtForz: do you have to use risers for a gpu in a 2u?
4038 2011-02-15 21:22:13 <ArtForz> yes
4039 2011-02-15 21:22:48 Omni has joined
4040 2011-02-15 21:22:50 <bk128> how many can you fit in a 2u space?
4041 2011-02-15 21:22:55 <UukGoblin> xelister, 790fx-gd70 is the one I'm using at the moment
4042 2011-02-15 21:22:57 <ArtForz> I only do 2
4043 2011-02-15 21:22:58 <UukGoblin> xelister, msi
4044 2011-02-15 21:23:02 <ArtForz> using a fixed right-angle riser + a flexible riser
4045 2011-02-15 21:23:26 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, how are the ASICs? :-]
4046 2011-02-15 21:23:30 <bk128> ok. what's the advantage of that over your mdf boxes?  it sounds more expensive
4047 2011-02-15 21:23:37 <bk128> make it look fancier :)
4048 2011-02-15 21:23:51 <ArtForz> yep
4049 2011-02-15 21:24:11 <lfm> impress girlfriend
4050 2011-02-15 21:24:30 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: arrived today, someone broke the moisture seal, they're baking overnight
4051 2011-02-15 21:24:32 <grubles> lol
4052 2011-02-15 21:24:43 <andrew12> heh
4053 2011-02-15 21:25:10 TD has joined
4054 2011-02-15 21:25:10 <bk128> you're really going to reflow 100 bga's in a toaster oven?
4055 2011-02-15 21:25:18 <UukGoblin> that's nasty
4056 2011-02-15 21:25:26 <ArtForz> yes
4057 2011-02-15 21:25:37 <hozer> please have someone video this
4058 2011-02-15 21:25:50 <bk128> I want more pictures
4059 2011-02-15 21:26:02 <UukGoblin> for that sort of money... kill them...!
4060 2011-02-15 21:26:17 <ArtForz> a 1600W toaster oven with 3 thermocouples, a PID controller and a convection fan ;)
4061 2011-02-15 21:26:31 <bk128> ArtForz: care on sharing your design :)
4062 2011-02-15 21:26:41 <ArtForz> already did way harder stuff in there than a bunch of 1.27mm BGAs
4063 2011-02-15 21:26:49 jrabbit has joined
4064 2011-02-15 21:26:54 EvanR_ has joined
4065 2011-02-15 21:26:57 <bk128> did you do the PID control with a MCU?
4066 2011-02-15 21:27:01 <ArtForz> yep
4067 2011-02-15 21:27:06 <bk128> what kind?
4068 2011-02-15 21:27:08 <ArtForz> AVR
4069 2011-02-15 21:27:09 hacim_ has joined
4070 2011-02-15 21:27:20 <bk128> care on sharing/ selling your schematics and code?
4071 2011-02-15 21:27:20 <hozer> arduio, perchance? or direct AVR-ASM bashing
4072 2011-02-15 21:27:33 <ArtForz> avr-gcc
4073 2011-02-15 21:27:38 <presence> ;;bc,nextblock
4074 2011-02-15 21:27:58 * hozer should finish the controllers for the 1000C furnance he has
4075 2011-02-15 21:28:05 <ArtForz> used maxim type-k -> spi converters
4076 2011-02-15 21:28:11 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4077 2011-02-15 21:28:14 <ArtForz> expensive but so fucking worth it
4078 2011-02-15 21:28:17 phantomcircuit has joined
4079 2011-02-15 21:28:32 <phantomcircuit> can someone verify the https certificate for bitcoin.org for me
4080 2011-02-15 21:28:40 <bk128> hate ADC's?
4081 2011-02-15 21:28:42 <ArtForz> $14 per converter isnt as bad as fucking with cold-junction compensation and op-amp noise for days
4082 2011-02-15 21:29:00 RichardG has joined
4083 2011-02-15 21:29:00 RichardG has quit (Changing host)
4084 2011-02-15 21:29:00 RichardG has joined
4085 2011-02-15 21:29:02 <hozer> quite
4086 2011-02-15 21:29:23 <hozer> this is quite nice too.. http://ryanjmclaughlin.com/store/interface-boards/assembled-boards/mq0ay.html
4087 2011-02-15 21:29:49 <UukGoblin> hrm that one new card only seems to work
4088 2011-02-15 21:30:03 <ArtForz> heaters are controlled via optotriac+triac
4089 2011-02-15 21:30:17 <ArtForz> basically discrete SSRs
4090 2011-02-15 21:30:38 <bk128> is an optotriac used to drive the triacs?
4091 2011-02-15 21:30:41 <bk128> never heard of one
4092 2011-02-15 21:30:42 <ArtForz> yep
4093 2011-02-15 21:31:05 <bk128> does it look just like an optoisolator?
4094 2011-02-15 21:31:05 <ArtForz> it's basically a optocoupler with a small triac instead of a output transistor
4095 2011-02-15 21:31:08 <hozer> I went old-school on my furnance and used radio-shack relays, cause triacs do not have the satisfying 'click'
4096 2011-02-15 21:31:10 <ArtForz> yep
4097 2011-02-15 21:31:13 <bk128> ah okay
4098 2011-02-15 21:31:32 <bk128> ArtForz: do you have your design notes on it?
4099 2011-02-15 21:31:40 <ArtForz> just need a R to limit trigger current to the power triac
4100 2011-02-15 21:32:46 <ArtForz> and of course some RC snubbing over the power triac so it doesnt get retriggered by the inductive spike at turnoff
4101 2011-02-15 21:32:54 rapacity has joined
4102 2011-02-15 21:33:12 <bk128> that's beyond what I could design at this point :(
4103 2011-02-15 21:33:14 <ArtForz> not really a problem driving resistive heaters
4104 2011-02-15 21:33:39 <ArtForz> it *is* a problem if you use one to drive a universal motor
4105 2011-02-15 21:34:16 <bk128> what do you do when your driving motors with triacs then?
4106 2011-02-15 21:34:25 <ArtForz> snubbers
4107 2011-02-15 21:34:40 <ArtForz> 47R + 100nF is a good starting point for smallish motors
4108 2011-02-15 21:34:40 <sethsethseth> roommates cards are 5870's btw
4109 2011-02-15 21:34:54 <sethsethseth> just got 320hash out of each of them
4110 2011-02-15 21:35:11 <ArtForz> and a 400V varisor just in case
4111 2011-02-15 21:35:13 <ArtForz> *varistor
4112 2011-02-15 21:35:31 yay6892 has quit (Quit: .)
4113 2011-02-15 21:35:43 <ArtForz> MCU is supplied by simple 9VAC transformer + diode fullbridge + 7805
4114 2011-02-15 21:35:53 gribble has joined
4115 2011-02-15 21:36:20 <bk128> ArtForz: trying to draw up a schematic in eagle as you explain this :)
4116 2011-02-15 21:36:54 <ArtForz> 2 additional diodes from transformer output to a resistive divider make a scaled-down rectified sine, fed to MCU A/D to find 0-crossing
4117 2011-02-15 21:36:56 <ntosme2> ArtForz: I like to use 5V phone chargers
4118 2011-02-15 21:36:59 <bk128> why 3 thermocouples  do you average them or take the highest?  or are there multiple heaters?
4119 2011-02-15 21:37:45 <ArtForz> one each near heater at top/bottom, one attached to PCB topside
4120 2011-02-15 21:38:30 <ArtForz> and yeah, I drive top/bottom heaters independently
4121 2011-02-15 21:38:34 Mrcheesenips has joined
4122 2011-02-15 21:39:04 <bk128> is the top heater only controlled by the top thermocouple?  what does the pcb thermocouple control?
4123 2011-02-15 21:39:05 Mrcheesenips has joined
4124 2011-02-15 21:39:15 <ArtForz> pcb thermocouple is used for main control
4125 2011-02-15 21:39:22 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4126 2011-02-15 21:39:35 <ntosme2> is there a bitcoind command to spit out a list of receiving addresses?
4127 2011-02-15 21:39:55 gribble has joined
4128 2011-02-15 21:39:57 <ArtForz> top/bottom are pretty much only to keep the heaters in check
4129 2011-02-15 21:40:19 <ArtForz> simple hardcoded tables would've worked for that as well, but I was lazy
4130 2011-02-15 21:40:35 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4131 2011-02-15 21:40:57 <bk128> MAX6675's?
4132 2011-02-15 21:41:06 nanotube has joined
4133 2011-02-15 21:41:08 <ArtForz> yep
4134 2011-02-15 21:41:11 <ArtForz> thats em
4135 2011-02-15 21:41:36 <ArtForz> interfacing type-ks can't get much simpler than that ;)
4136 2011-02-15 21:41:45 Gang has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4137 2011-02-15 21:41:46 <bk128> what do you think would happen if you just used 1 thermocouple? I don't think I could do 3.
4138 2011-02-15 21:42:06 dwdollar has left ()
4139 2011-02-15 21:42:07 <ntosme2> ah this worked './bitcoind listreceivedbyaccount 1 true'
4140 2011-02-15 21:42:07 <ArtForz> basically, I'm trying to avoid too big a heat gradient between top/bottom/pcb
4141 2011-02-15 21:42:22 <ArtForz> *temp gradient
4142 2011-02-15 21:42:52 <Raulo> ArtForz: A question unrelated to bitcoin. You have a combined heat and power generator in your home, haven't you? What manufacturer/type? How efficient it is?
4143 2011-02-15 21:42:52 <bk128> stil have the avr source?
4144 2011-02-15 21:43:22 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4145 2011-02-15 21:43:46 <ArtForz> with a heavy PCB and my standard profile, air near heaters would hit well > 400°C when ramping PCB towards 250°C peak
4146 2011-02-15 21:43:57 gribble has joined
4147 2011-02-15 21:44:51 <RichardG> is there any solution for running an executable in idle time, just like windows' low/idle priority?
4148 2011-02-15 21:44:53 <ArtForz> but that was a pretty extreme case, largeish 4-layer board with lots of heavy components
4149 2011-02-15 21:45:02 <RichardG> don't think nice -19 works in idle time
4150 2011-02-15 21:45:10 echelon has joined
4151 2011-02-15 21:45:13 jgarzik has joined
4152 2011-02-15 21:45:14 <RichardG> *in idle time in *nix
4153 2011-02-15 21:45:14 <ArtForz> try nice +19 ;)
4154 2011-02-15 21:45:21 <bk128> I've never done 2 layers anyways
4155 2011-02-15 21:45:22 <RichardG> ArtForz: no.
4156 2011-02-15 21:45:31 <ArtForz> RichardG: yes.
4157 2011-02-15 21:45:33 <bk128> more than 2*
4158 2011-02-15 21:45:40 <ArtForz> nice is niceness, higher nice = nicer
4159 2011-02-15 21:46:00 <ArtForz> higher nice level = lower priority
4160 2011-02-15 21:46:28 <ArtForz> well, 4-layer is pretty fun
4161 2011-02-15 21:46:32 <RichardG> Nicenesses  range
4162 2011-02-15 21:46:32 <RichardG>        from -20 (most favorable scheduling) to 19 (least favorable).
4163 2011-02-15 21:46:42 <ArtForz> yes
4164 2011-02-15 21:46:46 <RichardG> oh right.
4165 2011-02-15 21:46:52 <ArtForz> most favourable *to the process*
4166 2011-02-15 21:47:08 <ntosme2> block 1111 duration 0:00:28
4167 2011-02-15 21:47:11 <ntosme2> woak
4168 2011-02-15 21:47:12 <ArtForz> = lower nice level gets higher priority
4169 2011-02-15 21:47:14 <ntosme2> woah*
4170 2011-02-15 21:47:22 <ArtForz> wow, neat
4171 2011-02-15 21:47:22 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4172 2011-02-15 21:47:40 <ArtForz> but then, we already had -1000 second blocks
4173 2011-02-15 21:47:55 <ntosme2> ...?
4174 2011-02-15 21:47:58 gribble has joined
4175 2011-02-15 21:48:02 <ArtForz> yes, negative 1000
4176 2011-02-15 21:48:12 <andrew12> yay for unsynced clocks
4177 2011-02-15 21:48:15 <ArtForz> as in, a block with a timestamp earlier than the previous block
4178 2011-02-15 21:48:21 <ArtForz> which is prefectly fine
4179 2011-02-15 21:48:24 <ntosme2> ah, nice
4180 2011-02-15 21:48:32 <ArtForz> block timestamp has to be > median of prev 11 blocks
4181 2011-02-15 21:48:33 glassresistor has joined
4182 2011-02-15 21:48:44 <ArtForz> and < what client thinks is "now" + 2h
4183 2011-02-15 21:48:58 <UukGoblin> hrm, weird behaviour with 4 gpus
4184 2011-02-15 21:49:09 <ntosme2> that's somewhat arbitrary, but logical
4185 2011-02-15 21:49:12 <UukGoblin> I mean 8 gpus / 4 cards
4186 2011-02-15 21:49:30 <UukGoblin> after each software reboot, it hangs up in bios
4187 2011-02-15 21:49:34 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4188 2011-02-15 21:49:46 <ArtForz> msi 790fx board?
4189 2011-02-15 21:49:55 <andrew12> welp i'm gonna try to get arch working on here again :P
4190 2011-02-15 21:50:05 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, yup
4191 2011-02-15 21:50:11 <ArtForz> what PSUs?
4192 2011-02-15 21:50:16 <UukGoblin> I've just realized having 2x PSUs might be an issue
4193 2011-02-15 21:50:22 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, 2x AX850 corsair
4194 2011-02-15 21:50:35 <UukGoblin> one has the PS_ON# shorted to COM
4195 2011-02-15 21:50:51 <ArtForz> yep, should be fine
4196 2011-02-15 21:51:02 <ntosme2> are the cards ok with having power before system start?
4197 2011-02-15 21:51:23 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4198 2011-02-15 21:51:36 <ArtForz> that one is only supplying GPU PCIe connectors (and HD, system fans, ...) right?
4199 2011-02-15 21:51:47 <UukGoblin> right
4200 2011-02-15 21:51:57 gribble has joined
4201 2011-02-15 21:52:16 <ArtForz> I've seen the same behaviour
4202 2011-02-15 21:52:25 <ArtForz> replacing the 2ndary PSU fixed it
4203 2011-02-15 21:53:05 <UukGoblin> I've now reconfigured Xorg to use 2 cards only and it segfaults in fglrx.so or hangs up the box
4204 2011-02-15 21:53:08 <ArtForz> but that was with a cheap 750W group-regulated PSU running 2 5970s
4205 2011-02-15 21:53:34 <ArtForz> *the second 2 5970s
4206 2011-02-15 21:53:45 <ArtForz> hummm... thats really weird
4207 2011-02-15 21:53:57 sethsethseth has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
4208 2011-02-15 21:54:02 <UukGoblin> did aticonfig --adapter=0,1,2,3 --initial -f
4209 2011-02-15 21:54:07 <ArtForz> are your PCI IDs in xorg.conf correct?
4210 2011-02-15 21:54:24 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4211 2011-02-15 21:54:27 <ArtForz> watch out, sometimes aticonfig messes up adapter order
4212 2011-02-15 21:54:38 <UukGoblin> hm
4213 2011-02-15 21:54:43 <ArtForz> = 0,1,2,3 might not be what you expect
4214 2011-02-15 21:54:51 <UukGoblin> well the fact that with all 4 /compilation/ of the kernel breaks is... weird
4215 2011-02-15 21:55:13 <ArtForz> PCI bus IDs give a good idea who's who
4216 2011-02-15 21:55:13 <RichardG> any more suggestions for my presentation on why do people not care about bitcoin
4217 2011-02-15 21:55:19 <RichardG> current version: http://goput.it/str/h7a.pdf
4218 2011-02-15 21:55:27 gribble has joined
4219 2011-02-15 21:55:44 <ArtForz> they're 1master,1slave,2master,2slave, ... in ascending order
4220 2011-02-15 21:56:49 <UukGoblin> it used PCI:3:0:0, 4, 7 and 8
4221 2011-02-15 21:56:54 <ArtForz> that looks ok
4222 2011-02-15 21:56:59 <ArtForz> that should be the first 2 cards
4223 2011-02-15 21:57:18 <UukGoblin> --adapter=all gives these + 13, 14, 17, 18
4224 2011-02-15 21:57:24 * UukGoblin nods
4225 2011-02-15 21:57:27 <UukGoblin> something's screwed
4226 2011-02-15 21:57:30 <ArtForz> yep, looks ok
4227 2011-02-15 21:57:39 <ArtForz> yea
4228 2011-02-15 21:57:50 <ArtForz> do you have the latest mainboard BIOS flashed?
4229 2011-02-15 21:57:56 <UukGoblin> I tested all cards separately and there isn't one that's failing on its own
4230 2011-02-15 21:57:57 <UukGoblin> nope
4231 2011-02-15 21:58:01 <ArtForz> some older 790fx bioses were... problematic
4232 2011-02-15 21:58:15 <UukGoblin> actually, let me play around with settings...
4233 2011-02-15 21:58:54 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4234 2011-02-15 21:59:29 gribble has joined
4235 2011-02-15 22:00:07 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, I have v02.62
4236 2011-02-15 22:00:11 <bk128> ;;bc,stats
4237 2011-02-15 22:00:23 <bk128> ;;ping
4238 2011-02-15 22:02:44 <ArtForz> ?
4239 2011-02-15 22:02:55 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4240 2011-02-15 22:03:29 gribble has joined
4241 2011-02-15 22:03:44 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, that's my bios version, checking the latest now...
4242 2011-02-15 22:05:54 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4243 2011-02-15 22:06:03 phantomcircuit has joined
4244 2011-02-15 22:07:05 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4245 2011-02-15 22:07:40 gribble has joined
4246 2011-02-15 22:08:22 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4247 2011-02-15 22:08:25 RBecker has joined
4248 2011-02-15 22:10:38 <KBme> anyone know how to change the opencl path for diablominer?
4249 2011-02-15 22:10:52 gribble has joined
4250 2011-02-15 22:12:53 <KBme> my opencl buanry is in /usr/local/bin/x86_64...
4251 2011-02-15 22:13:08 <KBme> instead of /bin/x86_64 which diablominer seems to expect
4252 2011-02-15 22:13:17 <KBme> oh maybe it expects it to be in my path :)
4253 2011-02-15 22:13:41 <RBecker> KBme, do you know how to change it?
4254 2011-02-15 22:14:06 <KBme> yep
4255 2011-02-15 22:14:08 viq has quit (Quit: Shin! Shin! Sei! Kyu! Sai!)
4256 2011-02-15 22:14:11 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
4257 2011-02-15 22:14:11 jgarzik has joined
4258 2011-02-15 22:14:13 <KBme> it seems to work now lets see
4259 2011-02-15 22:14:28 <KBme> what would it display if it works?
4260 2011-02-15 22:14:37 <RBecker> you should get a khash/s rate
4261 2011-02-15 22:14:50 <KBme> hum weird
4262 2011-02-15 22:14:56 <KBme> no error but no output yet
4263 2011-02-15 22:15:03 <KBme> just the started message
4264 2011-02-15 22:16:15 <ntosme2> Encode/DecodeBase58 is nasty, surely there was a better way to do that
4265 2011-02-15 22:16:59 <RBecker> KBme, be aware that when you logout the default $PATH is set and you lose your custom one
4266 2011-02-15 22:17:28 SAK has joined
4267 2011-02-15 22:17:28 SAK has quit (Changing host)
4268 2011-02-15 22:17:28 SAK has joined
4269 2011-02-15 22:17:33 noagendamarket has joined
4270 2011-02-15 22:17:36 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
4271 2011-02-15 22:17:56 <SAK> anyone else in the US get disconnected?
4272 2011-02-15 22:18:08 SAK is now known as citizen
4273 2011-02-15 22:18:21 citizen is now known as citiz3n
4274 2011-02-15 22:18:41 <KBme> yeah
4275 2011-02-15 22:19:11 <citiz3n> seems like a bunch or all of the us servers are down
4276 2011-02-15 22:19:14 <citiz3n> crazy
4277 2011-02-15 22:19:30 <UukGoblin> hmm after upgrade it says it's v02.61
4278 2011-02-15 22:19:37 <UukGoblin> and copyright up to 2006 not 2008...
4279 2011-02-15 22:19:54 <UukGoblin> but website said that version 1.G is from 2010-12-01
4280 2011-02-15 22:19:55 <RBecker> yeah my BNC had issues reconnecting
4281 2011-02-15 22:19:56 <soultcer> Don't you read the global notices? Freenode is under DDoS
4282 2011-02-15 22:20:35 <RBecker> also kinda hard to do when the server your BNC is on is down and you were only able to get your BNC started ~15 minutes ago
4283 2011-02-15 22:20:53 <UukGoblin> hrm, after the bios upgrade PCI IDs are different...
4284 2011-02-15 22:21:07 <UukGoblin> w00t! and it now reboots properly
4285 2011-02-15 22:21:24 <UukGoblin> these new bioses are awesome btw
4286 2011-02-15 22:21:38 <UukGoblin> no need to boot from floppy, they automatically detect USB devices, neat!
4287 2011-02-15 22:21:44 <citiz3n> who was in here saying they had a card with 5 pci-e slots (evenly spaced)
4288 2011-02-15 22:22:00 <citiz3n> errr
4289 2011-02-15 22:22:04 <citiz3n> card = mobo
4290 2011-02-15 22:22:29 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
4291 2011-02-15 22:22:29 noagendamarket has joined
4292 2011-02-15 22:22:52 devon_hillard has joined
4293 2011-02-15 22:22:52 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
4294 2011-02-15 22:22:52 devon_hillard has joined
4295 2011-02-15 22:22:59 <UukGoblin> citiz3n, I have a mobo with 5 pci-e slots, not really evenly spaced
4296 2011-02-15 22:23:10 <UukGoblin> hrm, compilation of the last kernel still fails though :-[
4297 2011-02-15 22:23:17 <citiz3n> you can't fit 5 5870s in there can you?
4298 2011-02-15 22:23:26 <UukGoblin> I think I could
4299 2011-02-15 22:23:44 <citiz3n> what motherboard is it?
4300 2011-02-15 22:24:37 <UukGoblin> MSI 790fx-gd70
4301 2011-02-15 22:25:12 <UukGoblin> not sure though
4302 2011-02-15 22:25:23 <UukGoblin> it seems to have issues with my 4x 5970 as you can read above
4303 2011-02-15 22:25:35 Orbixx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4304 2011-02-15 22:25:57 <citiz3n> that's the motherboard i have
4305 2011-02-15 22:26:01 MacRohard has joined
4306 2011-02-15 22:26:06 <citiz3n> only has 4 full sized pci-e slots
4307 2011-02-15 22:26:22 <citiz3n> very nice mobo by the way
4308 2011-02-15 22:26:23 lyspooner has joined
4309 2011-02-15 22:26:24 <foucist> citiz3n: also has "1 PCI Express gen2 x1 slots"
4310 2011-02-15 22:26:25 <foucist> w/e that is
4311 2011-02-15 22:26:27 <citiz3n> i should check for bios updates too
4312 2011-02-15 22:26:52 <citiz3n> yeah in between slots 1 and 3
4313 2011-02-15 22:27:01 <citiz3n> so it's unusable unless you have single-space cards
4314 2011-02-15 22:27:14 <UukGoblin> or raisers
4315 2011-02-15 22:27:27 <devon_hillard> slush, you avatar :)
4316 2011-02-15 22:27:37 <citiz3n> didn't know they made raisers that big
4317 2011-02-15 22:27:38 <devon_hillard> now the mental image is stuck
4318 2011-02-15 22:27:49 <devon_hillard> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=309b727a44a45596b378c561fd9db72e&action=dlattach;attach=553;type=avatar
4319 2011-02-15 22:28:11 <slush> devon_hillard: what's wrong with my avatar? :)
4320 2011-02-15 22:28:21 <UukGoblin> ... aaand Xorg still segfaulting when I'm trying to run it on 2 cards only
4321 2011-02-15 22:28:26 <UukGoblin> giving up for today
4322 2011-02-15 22:29:09 <KBme> hurray :)
4323 2011-02-15 22:29:35 <KBme> so how much income can I expect with a 15934/16160 khash/sec?
4324 2011-02-15 22:30:29 <nanotube> ;;bc,calc 16000
4325 2011-02-15 22:30:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 16000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 11 weeks, 3 days, 18 hours, 32 minutes, and 32 seconds
4326 2011-02-15 22:30:44 <nanotube> ;;bc,gen 16000
4327 2011-02-15 22:30:46 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 16000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 0.619021786904 BTC per day and 0.0257925744543 BTC per hour.
4328 2011-02-15 22:31:08 <KBme> ok
4329 2011-02-15 22:31:10 <nanotube> KBme: --^ so about 2.5 pennies an hour :)
4330 2011-02-15 22:31:16 <KBme> ^^
4331 2011-02-15 22:31:18 <nanotube> at current difficulty.
4332 2011-02-15 22:31:35 <KBme> nanotube: but this means that...when will I see that it actually works?
4333 2011-02-15 22:31:56 <KBme> when a block completes in 11 weeks? :)
4334 2011-02-15 22:31:57 <nanotube> KBme: if you're not in a pool... then on average expect to wait 11 weeks. :)
4335 2011-02-15 22:32:06 <KBme> heh
4336 2011-02-15 22:32:06 <nanotube> i suggest you join a pool.
4337 2011-02-15 22:32:12 <andrew12> yay i got arch to work with syslinux ^_^
4338 2011-02-15 22:32:15 <nanotube> ;;pool
4339 2011-02-15 22:32:16 <gribble> Mining pools: http://mining.bitcoin.cz/ http://www.bitpenny.com/
4340 2011-02-15 22:32:16 <andrew12> now all i need is a gui...
4341 2011-02-15 22:32:35 <KBme> nanotube: thanks, i'll think about it. i'm really new
4342 2011-02-15 22:32:38 <RichardG> the fact youtube's transcribe audio feature can transcribe the What is a Bitcoin? animation perfectly
4343 2011-02-15 22:32:39 <andrew12> well upgrading all the packages is probably something i should do first
4344 2011-02-15 22:32:42 <RichardG> surprises me
4345 2011-02-15 22:32:51 <andrew12> unless they're all up to date. heh
4346 2011-02-15 22:32:57 <RichardG> (currently this is my only computer, its onboard audio recently died)
4347 2011-02-15 22:33:04 <Scootz> andrew12, is that on the mac?
4348 2011-02-15 22:33:06 <andrew12> yep
4349 2011-02-15 22:33:09 <KBme> wow if my gpu takes that long, my quadcore i7 would've taken like a year to get through a blockN
4350 2011-02-15 22:33:11 <KBme> ?
4351 2011-02-15 22:33:24 oldsailor has joined
4352 2011-02-15 22:33:31 <ntosme2> the difficulty is climbing rather fast...
4353 2011-02-15 22:33:36 <andrew12> that too.
4354 2011-02-15 22:33:49 <andrew12> ;;bc,gen 1000
4355 2011-02-15 22:33:51 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 0.0386888616815 BTC per day and 0.00161203590339 BTC per hour.
4356 2011-02-15 22:33:56 <andrew12> heh
4357 2011-02-15 22:34:13 <bk128> ;;bc,gen 1000000
4358 2011-02-15 22:34:14 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 38.6888616815 BTC per day and 1.61203590339 BTC per hour.
4359 2011-02-15 22:34:17 <slush> ;;gc,gen 600000
4360 2011-02-15 22:34:17 <gribble> Error: "gc,gen" is not a valid command.
4361 2011-02-15 22:34:23 <slush> ;;bc,gen 600000
4362 2011-02-15 22:34:25 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 23.2133170089 BTC per day and 0.967221542037 BTC per hour.
4363 2011-02-15 22:34:26 <KBme> ;;bc,calc 1000
4364 2011-02-15 22:34:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 years, 28 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 40 minutes, and 44 seconds
4365 2011-02-15 22:34:30 <andrew12> ;;bc,gen 192000000
4366 2011-02-15 22:34:32 <KBme> heh.
4367 2011-02-15 22:34:32 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 192000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 7428.26144284 BTC per day and 309.510893452 BTC per hour.
4368 2011-02-15 22:34:34 <RichardG> oh hey slush :)
4369 2011-02-15 22:34:39 <slush> hi
4370 2011-02-15 22:34:54 <KBme> man, first time i feel like i need a moar powerful videocard
4371 2011-02-15 22:34:58 <KBme> and multiples of it
4372 2011-02-15 22:34:59 <KBme> heh.
4373 2011-02-15 22:35:02 <RichardG> recently both the mining frontend and server have stopped working for an entire night (in my time)
4374 2011-02-15 22:35:08 <RichardG> they would just 500
4375 2011-02-15 22:35:16 <Scootz> it would be nice to sub-share what a miner gets to other computers in the same house.. split the work even further. :)
4376 2011-02-15 22:35:28 <citiz3n> ;;bc,gen 3420000
4377 2011-02-15 22:35:29 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 3420000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 132.315906951 BTC per day and 5.51316278961 BTC per hour.
4378 2011-02-15 22:35:30 <slush> RichardG: whole night? Not possible
4379 2011-02-15 22:35:55 <slush> RichardG: I did few restarts today, because I'm upgrading hardware
4380 2011-02-15 22:36:00 <andrew12> hmm
4381 2011-02-15 22:36:03 <slush> but those were few minute outages
4382 2011-02-15 22:36:04 Orbixx has joined
4383 2011-02-15 22:36:04 Orbixx has quit (Changing host)
4384 2011-02-15 22:36:04 Orbixx has joined
4385 2011-02-15 22:36:05 <andrew12> i think the 4way algo might work on here
4386 2011-02-15 22:36:26 <andrew12> yep
4387 2011-02-15 22:36:28 <foucist> andrew12: 4 cards or ?
4388 2011-02-15 22:36:34 <lyspooner> slush, any known bigger pools than yours?
4389 2011-02-15 22:37:10 <RichardG> I used to mine for puddinpop's pool until I saw slush's in a gribble definition
4390 2011-02-15 22:37:15 oldsailor has left ()
4391 2011-02-15 22:37:22 <RichardG> and found out it was bigger and more flexible (as in compatible with bitcoin's original protocol)
4392 2011-02-15 22:37:34 viq has joined
4393 2011-02-15 22:37:34 <andrew12> foucist: i have no idea what it is, but 4way actually showed up after i built it under arch on my mac (jgarzik's cpuminer)
4394 2011-02-15 22:37:49 <RichardG> ended up puddinpop slowly phased out his protocol
4395 2011-02-15 22:37:51 <andrew12> woo 500khash/s/core with the c algo
4396 2011-02-15 22:38:04 <RichardG> by first moving to a server provided by slush which went down one day
4397 2011-02-15 22:38:06 <andrew12> gonna try it with just 1 thread, then the other algos
4398 2011-02-15 22:38:09 <foucist> so anyways, i did my research and the cheapest rig for the biggest bang that i can come up with is $542 (case and all) with 2x5850s, for close to 550 Mhash/s
4399 2011-02-15 22:38:13 <RichardG> and then replacing his proprietary miners by json-rpc miners
4400 2011-02-15 22:38:39 <RichardG> it would be nice if pudidnpop's mining screensavers could passthru
4401 2011-02-15 22:38:47 <RichardG> just like avast antivirus' scan screensaver
4402 2011-02-15 22:39:00 Zarutian has joined
4403 2011-02-15 22:39:08 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4404 2011-02-15 22:39:18 <KBme> er...my i7 seems to be faster than diablominer
4405 2011-02-15 22:39:42 <KBme> ;;bc,gen 8496923
4406 2011-02-15 22:39:44 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 8496923 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 328.736278665 BTC per day and 13.6973449444 BTC per hour.
4407 2011-02-15 22:39:46 <KBme> ;;bc,calc 8496923
4408 2011-02-15 22:39:47 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 8496923 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 hours, 39 minutes, and 1 second
4409 2011-02-15 22:40:07 <KBme> or bitcoins hashpersec report is untrue :)
4410 2011-02-15 22:40:29 <KBme> oh, that is khash, ooops
4411 2011-02-15 22:40:31 <nanotube> KBme: khash
4412 2011-02-15 22:40:33 <andrew12> heh
4413 2011-02-15 22:40:33 <nanotube> heh yea
4414 2011-02-15 22:40:49 <slush> lyspooner: Don't know about any
4415 2011-02-15 22:40:50 <RichardG> ;;bc,gend 1100 1
4416 2011-02-15 22:40:50 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 8500
4417 2011-02-15 22:40:51 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1100 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 1106.41121864 BTC per day and 46.1004674435 BTC per hour.
4418 2011-02-15 22:40:52 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 8500 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 21 weeks, 5 days, 1 hour, 1 minute, and 15 seconds
4419 2011-02-15 22:40:52 <RichardG> ;;bc,gend 650 1
4420 2011-02-15 22:40:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 650 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 653.78844738 BTC per day and 27.2411853075 BTC per hour.
4421 2011-02-15 22:41:19 <KBme> wow so the cpu is worse at this job than the GPU?
4422 2011-02-15 22:41:19 <RichardG> gotta go, will continue work on my presentation tomorrow
4423 2011-02-15 22:41:21 <KBme> way worse
4424 2011-02-15 22:41:23 <KBme> weird
4425 2011-02-15 22:41:25 <andrew12> RichardG: that information would only be valid on testnet
4426 2011-02-15 22:41:34 <andrew12> KBme: that's how its supposed to be, lol
4427 2011-02-15 22:41:46 <KBme> it is?
4428 2011-02-15 22:41:50 <andrew12> yes
4429 2011-02-15 22:41:50 <Kiba> KBme: it's not weird! You're WEIRD!
4430 2011-02-15 22:41:54 <RichardG> andrew12 testnet = fixed difficulty?
4431 2011-02-15 22:41:54 <andrew12> Kiba: haha
4432 2011-02-15 22:42:12 <jgarzik> no, testnet is not fixed difficulty
4433 2011-02-15 22:42:17 <andrew12> RichardG: no, testnet difficulty's at 1 right now. I think they're gonna try to make it be fixed though...
4434 2011-02-15 22:42:19 <RichardG> ok
4435 2011-02-15 22:42:19 <RichardG> gotta go
4436 2011-02-15 22:42:22 <andrew12> cya
4437 2011-02-15 22:42:24 <RichardG> will continue work on my presentation tomorrow
4438 2011-02-15 22:42:28 <KBme> but...why? i have 4 cores and 3,2Ghz, i don't understand how a puny GPU can be faster than this
4439 2011-02-15 22:42:45 <slush> KBme: because mining is highly paralelized
4440 2011-02-15 22:42:49 <bk128> KBme: GPU's have 1500+ special purpose cores that can do the hashing
4441 2011-02-15 22:42:55 <KBme> oh?
4442 2011-02-15 22:42:59 <KBme> "shaders"
4443 2011-02-15 22:43:00 <bk128> not cores really, ALU's
4444 2011-02-15 22:43:04 <slush> KBme: with CPU, you have few cores. GPUs have hundreds or thousands of parallel streams
4445 2011-02-15 22:43:04 <KBme> i see
4446 2011-02-15 22:43:15 hundfred has joined
4447 2011-02-15 22:43:18 <KBme> ok, interesting stuff
4448 2011-02-15 22:43:18 <andrew12> Don't cross the streams!
4449 2011-02-15 22:43:25 <bk128> lol
4450 2011-02-15 22:43:47 <KBme> if I stop diablominer will it resume or will i loos a lot of work?
4451 2011-02-15 22:43:55 <Scootz> lol
4452 2011-02-15 22:44:30 <Scootz> slush, not with a 8400GS. :(
4453 2011-02-15 22:44:33 <andrew12> KBme: there is no work to lose
4454 2011-02-15 22:44:53 <KBme> man i wish i knew crypto better to dive in the bt code
4455 2011-02-15 22:45:01 <KBme> ah well, thanks, i'm set for now ☺
4456 2011-02-15 22:45:09 <andrew12> hehe
4457 2011-02-15 22:45:22 <Scootz> ooh my first segfault.
4458 2011-02-15 22:46:11 <lyspooner> how often does a 1ghash/sec generator's nonce overflow?
4459 2011-02-15 22:46:54 <KBme> heh.
4460 2011-02-15 22:46:58 <KBme> 1Ghash
4461 2011-02-15 22:47:24 <EvanR-work> yeah these people with 1mHash are puny ;)
4462 2011-02-15 22:47:31 <tcatm> lyspooner: about every 4 seconds
4463 2011-02-15 22:47:51 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
4464 2011-02-15 22:47:52 <tcatm> once "hash" is one nonce
4465 2011-02-15 22:47:54 <xelister> KBme: of course it will "resume"
4466 2011-02-15 22:48:03 <KBme> hurray :)
4467 2011-02-15 22:48:07 <TD[home]> lyspooner: just type this into google
4468 2011-02-15 22:48:08 <TD[home]> lyspooner: (2^32) / 1,000,000,000
4469 2011-02-15 22:48:11 <TD[home]> it gives you the answer
4470 2011-02-15 22:48:28 <lyspooner> ;;math, 2**32/1000000000
4471 2011-02-15 22:48:29 <gribble> Error: "math," is not a valid command.
4472 2011-02-15 22:48:43 <KBme> ;;bc (2^32) / 1,000,000,000
4473 2011-02-15 22:48:44 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
4474 2011-02-15 22:48:48 <xelister> KBme: searching is totally non-continues process, you can start/stop at random points, it does not matter. granuality is like 1/700,000,000 second (ok, more actually 1 second - cycle of main loop)
4475 2011-02-15 22:48:52 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4476 2011-02-15 22:49:14 <TD[home]> heh
4477 2011-02-15 22:49:14 <KBme> yeah, loosing 1sec of work isn't that bad
4478 2011-02-15 22:49:21 <KBme> except when it's the magic hash :p
4479 2011-02-15 22:49:25 <TD[home]> i guess i'm the only one who regularly uses google as a calculator?
4480 2011-02-15 22:49:29 <TD[home]> with chrome it's very convenient
4481 2011-02-15 22:49:32 <KBme> i use bc :)
4482 2011-02-15 22:49:32 <EvanR-work> how long is a bitcoin address?
4483 2011-02-15 22:49:52 <TD[home]> measured in what. characters? bytes?
4484 2011-02-15 22:49:56 <bk128> TD[home]: I use it all the time.  converting units too
4485 2011-02-15 22:49:57 <EvanR-work> whats the best datatype for a mysql database column storing bitcoin addresses
4486 2011-02-15 22:50:01 <EvanR-work> char(34) ?
4487 2011-02-15 22:50:06 <xelister> Found block #1 on Cypress.  Sending to 127.0.0.1:88^C^C^C   bash 1.2 $>           ... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
4488 2011-02-15 22:50:09 <nanotube> ;;calc (2^32) / 1,000,000,000
4489 2011-02-15 22:50:10 <gribble> (2^32) / 1,000,000,000 = 4.2949673
4490 2011-02-15 22:50:21 <xelister> <_<
4491 2011-02-15 22:50:23 sabalaba has joined
4492 2011-02-15 22:50:53 <KBme> xelister: lol
4493 2011-02-15 22:50:56 <TD[home]> EvanR-work: yeah they should always be the same width
4494 2011-02-15 22:50:59 <tcatm> EvanR-work: 44 chars is the maximum length IIRC
4495 2011-02-15 22:51:03 <EvanR-work> 44?
4496 2011-02-15 22:51:07 <EvanR-work> the length isnt fixed?
4497 2011-02-15 22:51:12 <tcatm> nope
4498 2011-02-15 22:51:14 <KBme> xelister: yeah exactly
4499 2011-02-15 22:51:17 <nanotube> EvanR-work: nope, addresses can vary in len
4500 2011-02-15 22:51:23 <theymos> 25-44 characters.
4501 2011-02-15 22:51:26 <bk128> xelister: what does that mean?
4502 2011-02-15 22:51:32 <xelister> KBme: bah, you have like 1/3600*24*2 chance of this ever happening ;)
4503 2011-02-15 22:51:54 <xelister> bk128: nah its a joke.. ^C is terminating(killing) a program  runnning in console. And that was part of some miner output =)
4504 2011-02-15 22:51:59 <KBme> that a better chance than winning the lotto
4505 2011-02-15 22:52:00 <foucist> EvanR-work: 0s get dropped i guess ;)
4506 2011-02-15 22:52:23 <EvanR-work> they all seem to be 34 in the monitor channel
4507 2011-02-15 22:52:36 <xelister> KBme: or join some good pool.
4508 2011-02-15 22:52:46 <TD[home]> tcatm: how does it end up different widths?
4509 2011-02-15 22:52:46 <lyspooner> xelister, is that the appropriate response to "will i lose my work if i drop my connection?"
4510 2011-02-15 22:52:47 <KBme> xelister: do i get to keep my dough?
4511 2011-02-15 22:52:55 <KBme> oh i remember poooling
4512 2011-02-15 22:53:02 <KBme> distributed equally among peers
4513 2011-02-15 22:53:07 <theymos> 34 and 33 are the most common lengths. This is a valid (though unowned) address: 11111111111111111111BZbvjr.
4514 2011-02-15 22:53:18 <KBme> is it distributed according to the hashpersec tho?
4515 2011-02-15 22:53:21 <theymos> The length depends on how many 0 bytes are in the address.
4516 2011-02-15 22:53:33 <TD[home]> EncodeBase58 zero pads
4517 2011-02-15 22:53:45 <TD[home]> so i thought that made no difference
4518 2011-02-15 22:53:55 <Keefe> impl wrong
4519 2011-02-15 22:54:07 <Keefe> but will probably never be changed
4520 2011-02-15 22:54:32 <Keefe> will probably bug me forever :)
4521 2011-02-15 22:54:37 <TD[home]> where is the bug ?
4522 2011-02-15 22:54:51 <Keefe> not exactly a bug. just illogical
4523 2011-02-15 22:55:00 <theymos> A 0 byte = 1, which is shorter than most other base58 conversions.
4524 2011-02-15 22:55:04 <Keefe> it works alright. just it should have been done properly
4525 2011-02-15 22:55:08 <xelister> KBme: but now we have 2 pools and well both could be better.  slush pool is taking 2% of your income and often has problems (overloaded server?) while the other bitpenny thing, seems to take ~10% (but of the guaranteed reward, this can be better)
4526 2011-02-15 22:55:59 <Keefe> who bother padding at all if you're not going to do it right?
4527 2011-02-15 22:56:06 <Keefe> why*
4528 2011-02-15 22:56:13 <KBme> bah i'll just wait 11 weeks
4529 2011-02-15 22:56:19 <KBme> or 3 months or wat
4530 2011-02-15 22:56:20 <KBme> lol
4531 2011-02-15 22:56:27 <xelister> KBme: hm? what are you mining with
4532 2011-02-15 22:56:52 <KBme> radeon
4533 2011-02-15 22:56:53 <KBme> erm
4534 2011-02-15 22:56:55 <KBme> lemme see
4535 2011-02-15 22:57:16 <nanotube> KBme: most likely diff will increase before you get a block. i personally would recommend you join the pool. :)
4536 2011-02-15 22:57:23 <EvanR-work> Keefe: annoying, i had hoped to one day write bitcoin code, but sounds like garbage ;)
4537 2011-02-15 22:57:25 <KBme> Radeon HD 5870
4538 2011-02-15 22:57:49 <xelister> KBme: woot.  btw I send you PM
4539 2011-02-15 22:57:50 <EvanR-work> 'worse is better'
4540 2011-02-15 22:58:16 <Keefe> i don't know about the rest of the code. probably all fine. but the base58 impl isn't perfect
4541 2011-02-15 22:58:19 <lyspooner> KBme, i would recommend you stop generating at all.  there are XXX sites looking for webcam models, which seems less difficult than 25,000
4542 2011-02-15 22:58:51 <bk128> ;;bc,stats
4543 2011-02-15 22:58:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108344 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 519 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 14 hours, 8 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34885.28416521
4544 2011-02-15 23:00:34 <EvanR-work> holy crap i hope the difficulty doesnt start jumping by 10k >_<
4545 2011-02-15 23:00:43 <EvanR-work> at least not before april 1
4546 2011-02-15 23:01:53 <xelister> EvanR-work: april1?
4547 2011-02-15 23:02:21 <EvanR-work> i got money on this bitch
4548 2011-02-15 23:02:43 <EvanR-work> sportsbook odds on difficulty under 50000 by then is 12 to 1
4549 2011-02-15 23:03:13 <phantomcircuit> you're betting on the difficulty rating?
4550 2011-02-15 23:03:15 <phantomcircuit> lolol
4551 2011-02-15 23:03:19 <EvanR-work> yeah
4552 2011-02-15 23:03:27 <jgarzik> lot of people are betting on difficulty rating by mining :)
4553 2011-02-15 23:03:37 <phantomcircuit> well shit i can manipulate the difficulty rating downward
4554 2011-02-15 23:03:43 <EvanR-work> you can?
4555 2011-02-15 23:03:49 <phantomcircuit> EvanR-work, DDoS
4556 2011-02-15 23:03:55 <EvanR-work> that would be good, go ahead and do that
4557 2011-02-15 23:04:02 <cosurgi> wtf
4558 2011-02-15 23:04:06 <jgarzik> highly doubtful
4559 2011-02-15 23:04:14 <jgarzik> I would you can DDoS all known miners
4560 2011-02-15 23:04:19 <jgarzik> I doubt you can DDoS all known miners
4561 2011-02-15 23:04:29 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, hehe so naive
4562 2011-02-15 23:04:33 sethsethseth has joined
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4564 2011-02-15 23:05:07 <ntosme2> isn't digital warfare fun!
4565 2011-02-15 23:05:11 <EvanR-work> phantomcircuit is satoshi
4566 2011-02-15 23:05:34 <cosurgi> wtf 2
4567 2011-02-15 23:06:08 larsivi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4568 2011-02-15 23:06:15 larsig has joined
4569 2011-02-15 23:06:45 <EvanR-work> while phantomcircuit is full of shit... that does bring up the question of how to somehow reduce difficulty so that i make more coins mining and get a giant payout ;)
4570 2011-02-15 23:06:58 <TD[home]> DoSing miners is probably very easy
4571 2011-02-15 23:07:14 <TD[home]> however to reduce difficulty would require it to last for a long time
4572 2011-02-15 23:07:18 <cosurgi> ask everyone to stop mining. Maybe if you pay them - they will stop.
4573 2011-02-15 23:07:44 <ntosme2> I will take 20BTC/day to stop mining
4574 2011-02-15 23:07:58 <cosurgi> I will take 100 BTC/day :)
4575 2011-02-15 23:08:18 <EvanR-work> is this corruption?
4576 2011-02-15 23:08:21 <lyspooner> 10,000 BTC up front for three years
4577 2011-02-15 23:08:25 satamusic has joined
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4579 2011-02-15 23:08:25 satamusic has joined
4580 2011-02-15 23:08:44 <EvanR-work> lyspooner: you bitch, i want a 12:1 odds payout ;)
4581 2011-02-15 23:08:45 <cosurgi> corruption??
4582 2011-02-15 23:08:59 <cosurgi> rather not.
4583 2011-02-15 23:09:27 <lyspooner> EvanR-work, we'll try again for June1
4584 2011-02-15 23:09:31 <EvanR-work> lol
4585 2011-02-15 23:10:18 opus_ has joined
4586 2011-02-15 23:10:20 <lyspooner> 25-->34 is a big jump
4587 2011-02-15 23:10:38 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,estimate
4588 2011-02-15 23:10:39 <gribble> 34894.35389127
4589 2011-02-15 23:10:46 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,stats
4590 2011-02-15 23:10:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108346 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 517 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 13 hours, 45 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34894.35389127
4591 2011-02-15 23:11:18 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
4592 2011-02-15 23:11:34 <KBme> lyspooner: how much would you pay to see me on a webcam?
4593 2011-02-15 23:11:38 <KBme> chatroulette anyone?
4594 2011-02-15 23:11:55 <ntosme2> oh my
4595 2011-02-15 23:12:03 doublec has joined
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4597 2011-02-15 23:12:04 doublec has joined
4598 2011-02-15 23:12:24 genjix has joined
4599 2011-02-15 23:12:38 <KBme> =)
4600 2011-02-15 23:13:37 <TD[home]> no takers
4601 2011-02-15 23:14:01 <EvanR-work> *cricket* *cricket*
4602 2011-02-15 23:14:08 <lyspooner> umm sorry
4603 2011-02-15 23:14:32 <lyspooner> how many decimal places does BTC have again?
4604 2011-02-15 23:14:39 <bk128> .01 right now
4605 2011-02-15 23:14:41 <bk128> I think
4606 2011-02-15 23:14:44 <KBme> lyspooner: http://goatse.fr
4607 2011-02-15 23:14:45 <EvanR-work> 8
4608 2011-02-15 23:15:00 <KBme> ohh they took it down
4609 2011-02-15 23:15:02 <KBme> dammit :(
4610 2011-02-15 23:15:02 <bk128> KBme: down
4611 2011-02-15 23:15:04 <lyspooner> KBme #bitcoin-fr
4612 2011-02-15 23:15:19 <UukGoblin> should I use a catalyst driver newer than 10.10?
4613 2011-02-15 23:15:30 <UukGoblin> with sdk 2.1?
4614 2011-02-15 23:16:41 CyanDynamo1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4615 2011-02-15 23:17:08 pogden has joined
4616 2011-02-15 23:17:45 <andrew12> hm, is it possible to do gpu mining with an agp card? :P
4617 2011-02-15 23:18:28 CyanDynamo has joined
4618 2011-02-15 23:21:20 <xelister> andrew12: check if it supports OpenCL
4619 2011-02-15 23:21:33 <xelister> andrew12: but it will be probably not too worth wile
4620 2011-02-15 23:23:18 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4621 2011-02-15 23:23:31 <andrew12> heh
4622 2011-02-15 23:24:00 molecular has joined
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4631 2011-02-15 23:36:30 xelister has joined
4632 2011-02-15 23:37:46 <theymos> I have 168 referrals on fxnet. I feel like some sort of criminal mastermind. ;)
4633 2011-02-15 23:39:07 yawniek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
4634 2011-02-15 23:43:05 <xelister> how much confirmations?
4635 2011-02-15 23:43:17 <xelister> 240 confirmations (24 hours) are the standard to wait to be completelly sure about a block?
4636 2011-02-15 23:43:19 Cusipzzz has joined
4637 2011-02-15 23:43:46 <molecular> that sounds like a lot
4638 2011-02-15 23:43:47 <theymos> Just 6. More than that is overkill, since the attacker would have to have >50% of the network, anyway.
4639 2011-02-15 23:44:12 <ntosme2> anyone an expert on EncodeBase58? I'm trying to implement in Python and getting different answers
4640 2011-02-15 23:44:29 <theymos> ntosme2: Did you see my PHP code? I think it's pretty easy to read.
4641 2011-02-15 23:44:40 <ntosme2> theymos: where?
4642 2011-02-15 23:44:48 <xelister> theymos: but there was some magic number. e.g. after generation
4643 2011-02-15 23:44:55 <xelister> how much was it? 120? 240?
4644 2011-02-15 23:45:12 <theymos> xelister: 100 network-enforced, plus 20 on the client. So 120.
4645 2011-02-15 23:45:17 <xelister> ok
4646 2011-02-15 23:45:23 <xelister> so ~12 hours
4647 2011-02-15 23:45:32 <theymos> Yes.
4648 2011-02-15 23:45:36 <theymos> ntosme2: http://pastebin.com/vmRQC7ha
4649 2011-02-15 23:46:16 <ntosme2> theymos: awesome, thanks
4650 2011-02-15 23:46:32 TD[home] has quit (Quit: TD[home])
4651 2011-02-15 23:46:59 <nanotube> ntosme2: iirc there's a python implementation as well, somewhere on forums.
4652 2011-02-15 23:47:35 <xelister> nanotube: awesome thing is happening right now
4653 2011-02-15 23:47:41 <xelister> the history is written lol =)
4654 2011-02-15 23:47:53 <xelister> freenet bitcoin transport is becoing a reali^H draft
4655 2011-02-15 23:48:03 <nanotube> xelister: nice!
4656 2011-02-15 23:48:08 <xelister> so, how secure will be bitcoin if the transport level is protected?
4657 2011-02-15 23:49:04 <theymos> You still need to make sure your anonymous coins are segmented from your non-anonymous coins. If that's taken care of, anonymity over Freenet should be pretty good.
4658 2011-02-15 23:49:17 <xelister> say, coin was mined non-anonymously,  then anon. payed to some guy X.  Now X anon'sly pays it to Y.    And Y spends it in 'unsafe way' (e.g. orders weed and plutonium via mail).  What are chances of finding out who X is?
4659 2011-02-15 23:49:23 <xelister> theymos: --^
4660 2011-02-15 23:50:13 <xelister> and what steps should be added to make it impossible to know who X is, if X always spends only anon'sly (and does not receive goods in trckable/irl way)
4661 2011-02-15 23:50:48 <molecular> cops could always interrogate Y and ask "who is X", maybe he knows
4662 2011-02-15 23:50:50 <luke-jr_> this is why, I do not tell which my blocks are ☺
4663 2011-02-15 23:51:09 <luke-jr_> molecular: presumably, they are tryign to /find/ Y
4664 2011-02-15 23:51:21 <xelister> molecular: X->Y anonymously .  just anonymously transported bitcoins,  negotiation/order was via say tor or something,  no IRL goods etc
4665 2011-02-15 23:51:25 <molecular> xelister said: "What are chances of finding out who X is?"
4666 2011-02-15 23:51:45 <theymos> xelister: Extremely low. The real risk is accidentally sending some non-anonymous coins. See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity
4667 2011-02-15 23:52:22 <xelister> theymos: so X should have separate bitcoin isntance + wallet that would ALWAYS use anonymous transport layer for bitcoins?
4668 2011-02-15 23:52:30 * xelister pokes da2ce7 in da face \o
4669 2011-02-15 23:53:12 <theymos> xelister: Yes. He must also always receive coins from people who don't know him and send to people who don't know him when using that installation.
4670 2011-02-15 23:53:20 <xelister> theymos: toad said he thinks even with anon transport bitcoin is tracable. But Im not sure he understood the stuff with random address for each transaction etc
4671 2011-02-15 23:53:50 <theymos> He's generally right, though it's possible to stay anonymous if you're really careful.
4672 2011-02-15 23:54:10 <xelister> ok so can we write down this rules 'reall careful' :)
4673 2011-02-15 23:54:31 <xelister> 1. use separate darknet wallet: seprate bitcoin client that ALWAYS uses anon transport (tor or freenet etc)
4674 2011-02-15 23:54:34 <xelister> 2. ?
4675 2011-02-15 23:55:03 <theymos> Send and receive coins anonymously.
4676 2011-02-15 23:55:35 <slush> does anybody know how fees for transactions are calculated? I need script to send everything from one wallet to another. Can I just do send(getbalance()) ?
4677 2011-02-15 23:55:50 <cosurgi> ;;seen ArtForz
4678 2011-02-15 23:55:51 <gribble> ArtForz was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 6 hours, 5 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <ArtForz> lol
4679 2011-02-15 23:55:52 <theymos> I think it's more secure to use an ewallet over Tor. Using your own client makes it easier to correlate your different addresses.
4680 2011-02-15 23:56:09 <xelister> theymos: ewaller?
4681 2011-02-15 23:56:11 <xelister> ewallet
4682 2011-02-15 23:56:16 <theymos> Like MyBitcoin.
4683 2011-02-15 23:56:20 <xelister> hmm
4684 2011-02-15 23:56:39 <theymos> slush: The rates on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee are still in effect AFAIK.
4685 2011-02-15 23:56:48 <xelister> well it is still to *own* bitcoins :)  the whole decentralisation thing ;)
4686 2011-02-15 23:57:40 <theymos> Even now the anonymity isn't as horrible as I used to think. I helped mtgox track people a couple of times, and both times there was too much ambiguity to take action.
4687 2011-02-15 23:57:48 <slush> theymos: thanks. so it looks like sending freshly minted coins to another wallet does not trigger the fees (as it is less than 27kB)
4688 2011-02-15 23:58:52 <theymos> slush: Right.
4689 2011-02-15 23:59:26 <nanotube> xelister: i take it you have read the anonymity wiki page?