1 2011-02-16 00:03:22 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
   2 2011-02-16 00:04:43 <molecular> hey slush, how's the push-stuff coming? or is that on hold?
   3 2011-02-16 00:05:34 <slush> molecular i didn't touch it for few days, I was away or busy with other important stuff on site
   4 2011-02-16 00:06:00 <slush> molecular Tomorrow I'll introduce score based accounting system and then I'll start on push implementation with high priority again
   5 2011-02-16 00:06:19 <xelister> nanotube: yes I just re-read it
   6 2011-02-16 00:06:32 <xelister> cant we build in some mixing service into the nodes even
   7 2011-02-16 00:07:25 <nanotube> xelister: mixing involved trust.
   8 2011-02-16 00:07:30 <nanotube> you send your coins somewhere
   9 2011-02-16 00:07:38 <nanotube> you hope to get some back
  10 2011-02-16 00:08:34 <molecular> slush, nice
  11 2011-02-16 00:08:52 <phantomcircuit> so in the irc bootstrap who are the people with nicks x.+
  12 2011-02-16 00:09:49 <slush> molecular I think jgarzik done good stuff with protocol in meantime, so I'll keep his guidelines. I hope there will be standard push protocol for all miners soon
  13 2011-02-16 00:09:53 <phantomcircuit> nvm
  14 2011-02-16 00:11:00 <molecular> slush, I'm not sure if this is a problem here and for how long it has existed or wether it's normal or not, but I'm getting a lot of rejected shares
  15 2011-02-16 00:11:09 kupo_ is now known as kupo
  16 2011-02-16 00:11:14 <slush> molecular now?
  17 2011-02-16 00:11:18 <molecular> yes, just now
  18 2011-02-16 00:11:24 <molecular> about 30% reject
  19 2011-02-16 00:12:28 <molecular> maybe these are really miscalculations.. I think DiabloMiner doesn't recalc the hash...
  20 2011-02-16 00:12:35 <slush> molecular for how long time? I don't see anything bad in logs now
  21 2011-02-16 00:12:47 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  22 2011-02-16 00:13:00 <slush> molecular I was playing with pool heavily in last few hours
  23 2011-02-16 00:13:10 <slush> but now it should be everything fine
  24 2011-02-16 00:13:38 kupo has quit (Changing host)
  25 2011-02-16 00:13:38 kupo has joined
  26 2011-02-16 00:15:00 Guest18491 is now known as ForceMajeure
  27 2011-02-16 00:15:06 <phantomcircuit> oh wow
  28 2011-02-16 00:15:22 <phantomcircuit> there are a couple of people running nodes on aws
  29 2011-02-16 00:15:32 <phantomcircuit> 12 that i count
  30 2011-02-16 00:15:49 <phantomcircuit> there is no way that's economically feasible
  31 2011-02-16 00:15:49 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  32 2011-02-16 00:16:21 <foucist> phantomcircuit: hmm, what if the nodes are actively being used for other purposes?
  33 2011-02-16 00:16:37 <foucist> and the mining is just ancillary..
  34 2011-02-16 00:17:14 <phantomcircuit> foucist, you'd have to be using the nodes with GPUs available, and i cant imagine anybody needing one of those w/o also needing the GPU
  35 2011-02-16 00:17:38 <foucist> yeah, sounds strange
  36 2011-02-16 00:17:48 <foucist> but i guess some people just have money to burn
  37 2011-02-16 00:18:14 <foucist> one guy spent some $500 using ec2 for runing some evolutionary computation stuff
  38 2011-02-16 00:18:27 <foucist> for the google ai challenge (no money prizes or anything)
  39 2011-02-16 00:18:39 <phantomcircuit> it could be people betting that the current exchange rate is going to see a massive influx
  40 2011-02-16 00:18:50 <foucist> phantomcircuit: then why don't they just buy bitcoins? :P
  41 2011-02-16 00:19:07 <phantomcircuit> foucist, $500 is nothing to beat something like that
  42 2011-02-16 00:20:55 <phantomcircuit> anyways
  43 2011-02-16 00:20:58 <phantomcircuit> like i was saying
  44 2011-02-16 00:22:36 <foucist> phantomcircuit: maybe they have a miner that actually makes it cost effective ;)
  45 2011-02-16 00:22:47 xelister has joined
  46 2011-02-16 00:22:48 xelister has quit (Changing host)
  47 2011-02-16 00:22:48 xelister has joined
  48 2011-02-16 00:22:51 <foucist> wouldn't that scare the shit out of you ;)
  49 2011-02-16 00:24:04 <xelister> so much for stable 5770@960
  50 2011-02-16 00:25:50 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  51 2011-02-16 00:31:34 <phantomcircuit> EvanR-work, a naive DDoS against the network would target everybody so assuming the average capacity of a node to be 30/10 (which is probably on the high side) you could DDoS the network with 2500*30mbps
  52 2011-02-16 00:32:04 <phantomcircuit> EvanR-work, however there is an obvious amplification attack in the network stack
  53 2011-02-16 00:33:27 <phantomcircuit> EvanR-work, so indeed i believe i could shutdown the vast majority of the network with a mere 12 mbps
  54 2011-02-16 00:33:35 <phantomcircuit> (upstream of course)
  55 2011-02-16 00:34:06 <phantomcircuit> lets see if it works (locally of course ;)
  56 2011-02-16 00:35:11 <theymos> You'd run out of CPU trying to get nodes to relay transactions. addr messages aren't broadcast to all peers, and they reach only a random segment of the network.
  57 2011-02-16 00:35:42 <phantomcircuit> theymos, that's not the attack
  58 2011-02-16 00:36:31 <ntosme2> if it works locally, feel free to try globally hehe
  59 2011-02-16 00:36:53 <theymos> What is the attack? Opening TCP connections to make nodes respond with a version?
  60 2011-02-16 00:36:54 <bk128> or make a patch
  61 2011-02-16 00:37:36 <phantomcircuit> theymos, what small request can i make that will result in a large response?
  62 2011-02-16 00:38:56 tibano has joined
  63 2011-02-16 00:39:00 <theymos> getdata? Wouldn't you have to download all the data?
  64 2011-02-16 00:39:03 <tibano> hey guy
  65 2011-02-16 00:39:10 <tibano> guys
  66 2011-02-16 00:39:38 <phantomcircuit> theymos, you're almost there
  67 2011-02-16 00:40:03 <tibano> can someone help me with slush's pool mining gpu/cpu program?
  68 2011-02-16 00:40:07 <theymos> getblocks? getheaders?
  69 2011-02-16 00:40:21 <phantomcircuit> no you had the right one
  70 2011-02-16 00:40:31 <phantomcircuit> you're just missing an important part of the attack
  71 2011-02-16 00:40:33 <tibano> i'm missing OpenCL.dll but slush says it's in the binary
  72 2011-02-16 00:40:37 <tibano> i can't find it
  73 2011-02-16 00:40:49 <xelister> tibano: well slush is nere =)
  74 2011-02-16 00:40:51 <xelister> here
  75 2011-02-16 00:40:57 <tibano> lol
  76 2011-02-16 00:40:58 <phantomcircuit> theymos, clue none of the data ever hits the network
  77 2011-02-16 00:41:12 <slush> slush is going to the bed right now, sorry :)
  78 2011-02-16 00:41:20 <tibano> ah k
  79 2011-02-16 00:41:29 <tibano> where is OpenCL.dll?! :p
  80 2011-02-16 00:42:07 <theymos> phantomcircuit: I give up; what is it? :/
  81 2011-02-16 00:42:40 <xelister> tibano: what miner are you using
  82 2011-02-16 00:42:44 dirtyfilthy has joined
  83 2011-02-16 00:43:08 <phantomcircuit> theymos, dat window size
  84 2011-02-16 00:43:27 <tibano> "bitcoin-rpcminer-20110213-win32bin.zip"
  85 2011-02-16 00:43:48 <tibano> so i guess puddin's
  86 2011-02-16 00:44:07 <tibano> trying to join slush's mining pool tho
  87 2011-02-16 00:44:19 Necr0s has joined
  88 2011-02-16 00:44:44 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: Page closed)
  89 2011-02-16 00:46:24 <theymos> phantomcircuit: TCP window size? I don't see how that helps -- you still have to download the data.
  90 2011-02-16 00:46:28 <bk128> phantomcircuit: don't ddos me!
  91 2011-02-16 00:46:37 <phantomcircuit> theymos, actually i dont
  92 2011-02-16 00:47:18 <phantomcircuit> set the tcp windows to close to zero and you'll end up with either no memory or every connection slot filled
  93 2011-02-16 00:47:21 <ntosme2> phantomcircuit: it would probably be easiest to simply ddos the pool servers
  94 2011-02-16 00:47:27 <bk128> the whole network with 12mbit though?  that's scary
  95 2011-02-16 00:47:39 <tibano> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/Tibano/Untitled.png
  96 2011-02-16 00:47:48 <tibano> so...this pic shows there's no OpenCL.dll
  97 2011-02-16 00:49:19 <tibano> no one else had this issue?
  98 2011-02-16 00:49:33 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, possible but the work around for that is trivial
  99 2011-02-16 00:51:11 <ntosme2> drop packets from spamming IPs yes
 100 2011-02-16 00:51:47 <phantomcircuit> no i meant just drop the pools
 101 2011-02-16 00:51:53 <bk128> tibano: I think opencl.dll comes with the ati sdk.
 102 2011-02-16 00:52:02 <bk128> if you're running an ati card
 103 2011-02-16 00:52:15 <tibano> dxdiag says i am
 104 2011-02-16 00:52:25 <bk128> what card is it?
 105 2011-02-16 00:52:42 <bk128> http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ if you don't know
 106 2011-02-16 00:53:27 <tibano> crappy 4400 radeon
 107 2011-02-16 00:53:55 <tibano> i'll try downloading the updated driver
 108 2011-02-16 00:56:33 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 109 2011-02-16 00:59:31 <bk128> tibano: I think there are quite a few guides out there as well.
 110 2011-02-16 00:59:50 Necr0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 111 2011-02-16 00:59:52 <tibano> do you have a link to one? that would be helpful :)
 112 2011-02-16 01:00:07 <bk128> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
 113 2011-02-16 01:00:34 <bk128> it sounds like Diablo's and m0mchil's are the most popular.  there are guides on that page
 114 2011-02-16 01:00:59 <tibano> i picked puddin' so i can use cpu+gpu
 115 2011-02-16 01:01:56 <bk128> tibano: don't use cpu.  it just wastes power
 116 2011-02-16 01:01:58 <bk128> http://www.newslobster.com/random/how-to-get-started-using-your-gpu-to-mine-for-bitcoins-on-windows
 117 2011-02-16 01:02:16 <tibano> it just wastes power?
 118 2011-02-16 01:02:18 <tibano> it what sense?
 119 2011-02-16 01:02:24 <cosurgi> 17 blocks in one hour! That was 7 hours ago.
 120 2011-02-16 01:02:42 <tibano> ah damn
 121 2011-02-16 01:02:56 <bk128> tibano: running your cpu at full load probably consumes as much power as your video card at full load and will only produce 1/200 of the coins or so
 122 2011-02-16 01:03:04 <tibano> now i get OpenCL.dll here and the termindal died :P
 123 2011-02-16 01:03:08 <tibano> terminal
 124 2011-02-16 01:03:20 <tibano> well i will just use GPU then
 125 2011-02-16 01:03:35 <cosurgi> CPU is a total waste.
 126 2011-02-16 01:03:48 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 127 2011-02-16 01:03:55 <tibano> bah. puddin' proggy is buggy
 128 2011-02-16 01:05:07 <bk128> tibano: are you using the last guide I sent you?
 129 2011-02-16 01:05:32 <tibano> i will start now :p
 130 2011-02-16 01:05:38 noagendamarket has joined
 131 2011-02-16 01:05:59 <bk128> tibano: In the future you might get more answers in #bitcoin-discussion or #bitcoin-otc
 132 2011-02-16 01:06:13 <tibano> cool
 133 2011-02-16 01:06:35 <xelister> theymos: download data from freenet \i/
 134 2011-02-16 01:06:46 <theymos> phantomcircuit: That does sound like an effective attack. You might even be able to crash some routers. Do other network apps address this issue? Seems like a flaw in TCP itself.
 135 2011-02-16 01:07:02 <theymos> xelister: What data?
 136 2011-02-16 01:07:40 <bk128> phantomcircuit: is there a way to prevent this attack?
 137 2011-02-16 01:08:19 <phantomcircuit> theymos, google slow loris
 138 2011-02-16 01:08:45 <phantomcircuit> bk128, yes, you simply set your own sndbuf to be relatively small and then from any peers that fill it
 139 2011-02-16 01:08:55 <phantomcircuit> theymos, and yes it is >:)
 140 2011-02-16 01:09:42 <theymos> Bitcoin should require proof-of-work on connect.
 141 2011-02-16 01:10:03 <bk128> phantomcircuit: think that'll be patched in .21?
 142 2011-02-16 01:10:06 yawniek has joined
 143 2011-02-16 01:10:16 <phantomcircuit> bk128, how would i know?
 144 2011-02-16 01:10:17 <phantomcircuit> lol
 145 2011-02-16 01:10:26 <bk128> lol I thought you did some of the dev
 146 2011-02-16 01:10:36 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 147 2011-02-16 01:13:51 <nanotube> theymos: haha interesting idea.
 148 2011-02-16 01:14:21 <nanotube> theymos: but you need to open a socket in order to send it. so it's still vulnerable to the 'open a bunch of sockets' attack.
 149 2011-02-16 01:15:03 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, that's pretty easy to defend against, simply limit the number of connections/unique ips
 150 2011-02-16 01:15:22 <theymos> You can use -maxconnections to limit the number of connections.
 151 2011-02-16 01:15:49 <afed> any estimates on what bitcoins might cost when the difficulty goes to 33k?
 152 2011-02-16 01:16:16 <nanotube> afed: price is not directly attached to dificulty
 153 2011-02-16 01:16:37 <afed> nanotube: true
 154 2011-02-16 01:16:42 <afed> but i sense that pattern
 155 2011-02-16 01:16:42 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: aw, so cute! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_loris (but what does it have to do with network attacks) :)
 156 2011-02-16 01:16:42 <phantomcircuit> theymos, that ironically makes the situation worse
 157 2011-02-16 01:16:53 <afed> rate of generation slows down, fewer coins to buy
 158 2011-02-16 01:16:57 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, you need to brush up on your googlefu ;)
 159 2011-02-16 01:17:18 <nanotube> afed: total generation is targeted to 7200 blocks per day, regardless of difficulty.
 160 2011-02-16 01:17:33 <theymos> You wouldn't want to hold the connection open while waiting for proof-of-work.
 161 2011-02-16 01:17:37 <nanotube> rising difficulty just means there's more total people mining.
 162 2011-02-16 01:17:56 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: yea i know, was just funny how first hit was a cute critter. ;)
 163 2011-02-16 01:18:04 <Cusipzzz> 7200 coins per day.. 7200 blocks, inflation city :)
 164 2011-02-16 01:18:23 <nanotube> Cusipzzz: hahaha yea, coins, not blocks
 165 2011-02-16 01:21:45 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
 166 2011-02-16 01:22:31 yawniek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 167 2011-02-16 01:23:08 yawniek has joined
 168 2011-02-16 01:23:08 molecular has quit (zapp!~molecular@e176121245.adsl.alicedsl.de|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 169 2011-02-16 01:23:44 <bk128> slush: just tried signing up.  after verifying email and trying to log in it says my username/ pass don't match.  tried resetting it twice and using different passwords
 170 2011-02-16 01:24:12 <phantomcircuit> yes as i suspect
 171 2011-02-16 01:24:18 <phantomcircuit> this attack works perfectly
 172 2011-02-16 01:24:30 <phantomcircuit> i could trivially DDoS the entire network from my DSL connection
 173 2011-02-16 01:24:32 <phantomcircuit> kthx
 174 2011-02-16 01:24:38 <phantomcircuit> bbl
 175 2011-02-16 01:25:57 <bk128> slush: nevermind /facepalm
 176 2011-02-16 01:26:06 <bk128> using email in the username field
 177 2011-02-16 01:27:07 <xelister> about blocks
 178 2011-02-16 01:27:09 <xelister> e.g. http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000201905fdc60d46e74ad3adeaae6ced8f4c64b2036ceb5e0a0d0cc
 179 2011-02-16 01:27:30 <xelister> the blocks travel the network (TCP) as binary right?  the blockexplorer decodes it for view?
 180 2011-02-16 01:27:38 <theymos> Right.
 181 2011-02-16 01:27:58 <xelister> although probably crypto is added by the p2p layer even in normal bitcoin?
 182 2011-02-16 01:28:04 <dirtyfilthy> nope
 183 2011-02-16 01:28:09 <xelister> just pure text? omg
 184 2011-02-16 01:28:28 <dirtyfilthy> all the transactions are public anyway
 185 2011-02-16 01:28:28 <afed> what purpose would crypto serve
 186 2011-02-16 01:28:28 <xelister> so all ISPs, GOVs and some neighbours know our transactions
 187 2011-02-16 01:28:36 <xelister>  what about TX ?
 188 2011-02-16 01:28:42 <dirtyfilthy> it's all in the block chain
 189 2011-02-16 01:28:43 <xelister> they travel as text too?
 190 2011-02-16 01:28:49 <afed> if that crap was encrypted, how would YOU decrypt it?
 191 2011-02-16 01:29:02 <xelister> yeah but before it ends up in block chain it ravels freelty to reach miners that will put it into chains
 192 2011-02-16 01:29:08 <dirtyfilthy> yeh
 193 2011-02-16 01:29:10 <dirtyfilthy> point being
 194 2011-02-16 01:29:13 <dirtyfilthy> ?
 195 2011-02-16 01:29:16 <luke-jr_> xelister: all TX are public in the end, no matter how you send it
 196 2011-02-16 01:29:20 <xelister> afed: p2p could use encyption just on public layer
 197 2011-02-16 01:29:33 <afed> xelister: it's all public
 198 2011-02-16 01:29:44 <afed> anyone could just decrypt the traffic
 199 2011-02-16 01:29:45 <xelister> luke-jr_: but TX in travel have an IP associated with them. in blockchain they do not
 200 2011-02-16 01:29:52 <xelister> thats why it is pseudonymous
 201 2011-02-16 01:30:03 <afed> you're trolling me
 202 2011-02-16 01:30:07 <xelister> get a clue
 203 2011-02-16 01:30:10 <afed> stop trolling me by pretending to be stupid
 204 2011-02-16 01:30:18 <luke-jr_> xelister: sorry, but he has a clue
 205 2011-02-16 01:30:30 <dirtyfilthy> tx in travel? eh not following
 206 2011-02-16 01:30:31 <luke-jr_> xelister: it is impossible to encrypt a p2p network like this
 207 2011-02-16 01:30:32 <xelister> TX in flight over TCP is of course associated with an IP.   TX in published block chain does not have IP associated
 208 2011-02-16 01:30:45 <xelister> theymos: back me up, these noobs troll me =)
 209 2011-02-16 01:30:54 <dirtyfilthy> okaaaay... but you're rebroadcasting tx's all over the show anyway
 210 2011-02-16 01:31:15 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: yeah but ISP of the originator of TX will know that this TX is associated with given IP
 211 2011-02-16 01:31:35 <luke-jr_> xelister: there is nothing anyone can do about that.
 212 2011-02-16 01:31:40 <xelister> and could sell this info say to IRS
 213 2011-02-16 01:31:46 <xelister> luke-jr_: sure there is
 214 2011-02-16 01:31:49 <xelister> I can do something about it
 215 2011-02-16 01:31:51 <dirtyfilthy> you could negotiate keys on the fly
 216 2011-02-16 01:31:54 <dirtyfilthy> he's right about that
 217 2011-02-16 01:31:58 <xelister> also someone did sometihng about it by transporting over TOR
 218 2011-02-16 01:32:00 <luke-jr_> dirtyfilthy: then the ISP just needs to do MITM
 219 2011-02-16 01:32:09 <xelister> luke-jr_: TOR
 220 2011-02-16 01:32:14 <xelister> ISP can suck my balls
 221 2011-02-16 01:32:15 <luke-jr_> xelister: prove TOR works
 222 2011-02-16 01:32:21 <xelister> luke-jr_: wikileaks
 223 2011-02-16 01:32:24 <dirtyfilthy> prove it doesn't?
 224 2011-02-16 01:32:26 <dirtyfilthy> :P
 225 2011-02-16 01:32:31 <luke-jr_> wikileaks is proof it doesn't.
 226 2011-02-16 01:32:36 <xelister> "<luke-jr_> xelister: prove TOR works" lol ?
 227 2011-02-16 01:32:55 <xelister> yes TOR is not unbreakable.   Also, yes, tor DOES work, duuh.
 228 2011-02-16 01:33:20 johyn has joined
 229 2011-02-16 01:33:24 <xelister> well anyway, so default naked bitcoin is even more vulnearable then I thought >_>  I assumed some kind of crypto on transport layer
 230 2011-02-16 01:33:28 <johyn> hi all
 231 2011-02-16 01:33:36 <xelister> yes it can be mitm'ed, but for example this is a legal problem
 232 2011-02-16 01:33:48 <xelister> while passive listening by ISP is easy and cheap and hard to sue for
 233 2011-02-16 01:33:58 <luke-jr_> xelister: you're trying to do something illegal, so what does it matter?
 234 2011-02-16 01:33:59 <xelister> and undetectable
 235 2011-02-16 01:34:01 <johyn> is there a channel where i can ask people to order me a pizza for bitcoins
 236 2011-02-16 01:34:06 <tibano> so, i followed bk128
 237 2011-02-16 01:34:11 <tibano> that walkthrough
 238 2011-02-16 01:34:14 <xelister> johyn: I could if you are in poland =)
 239 2011-02-16 01:34:32 <bk128> tibano: I haven't set up gpu's yet.  I have 3 5870's arriving on friday though
 240 2011-02-16 01:34:42 <johyn> i wish i was in poland
 241 2011-02-16 01:34:42 <tibano> so
 242 2011-02-16 01:34:45 <tibano> ?
 243 2011-02-16 01:34:48 <johyn> i'm in california, and broke
 244 2011-02-16 01:34:57 <xelister> luke-jr_: if it is illegal, it DOES matter is it detectable&provable (tempering with packets) or totally unproable (passive sniffing)
 245 2011-02-16 01:35:04 <johyn> but i got a good fitty bucks in bitocins
 246 2011-02-16 01:35:11 <bk128> tibano: is it working?
 247 2011-02-16 01:35:12 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 248 2011-02-16 01:35:14 <tibano> ah
 249 2011-02-16 01:35:16 <tibano> well
 250 2011-02-16 01:35:21 <tibano> i set the batch file
 251 2011-02-16 01:35:25 <tibano> and it's communicating
 252 2011-02-16 01:35:26 <xelister> johyn: sorry not me. but other people for sure. also try #bitcoin-mining.  please say back how it went :)
 253 2011-02-16 01:35:34 <tibano> but there seems to be some kind of incomplete error
 254 2011-02-16 01:35:45 <xelister> theymos: are you here
 255 2011-02-16 01:35:49 * xelister poeks nanotube in eye
 256 2011-02-16 01:36:03 <bk128> tibano: you might try the forums or #bitcoin-discussion
 257 2011-02-16 01:36:30 <xelister> what format you propose to pack sevearl blocks and transactions into a file (for freenet transport)? binary + added headers of size?  like:  size,<data,data...data>, size,<data,data...data>,  ? or .tar ?  or .. ?
 258 2011-02-16 01:38:51 <xelister> the "hash" from block explorer like http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000201905fdc60d46e74ad3adeaae6ced8f4c64b2036ceb5e0a0d0cc   is the thing that nicelly identifies an uniquie block globally, right?
 259 2011-02-16 01:39:18 <dirtyfilthy> yep
 260 2011-02-16 01:39:32 <dirtyfilthy> that hash is actually reversed btw
 261 2011-02-16 01:39:57 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: ah right, damn indians ;)
 262 2011-02-16 01:39:58 sabalaba has joined
 263 2011-02-16 01:40:17 <xelister> what sounds like better idea to pack several blocks for transportation?
 264 2011-02-16 01:40:20 <xelister> .tar them
 265 2011-02-16 01:40:28 <dirtyfilthy> i don't know why every site reverses them
 266 2011-02-16 01:40:31 <xelister> or put them into a blob file of:  size,data,size,data...
 267 2011-02-16 01:40:57 johyn is now known as devojinx
 268 2011-02-16 01:42:22 <xelister> endianess!!! finally YOU CAN DECIDE! woo
 269 2011-02-16 01:42:39 <xelister> you want big endian or little endian?  you decide =)  for a bitcoin file transport format
 270 2011-02-16 01:42:49 <xelister> *bitcoin over freenet transport
 271 2011-02-16 01:44:12 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 272 2011-02-16 01:44:18 <xelister> noone? ok little it is
 273 2011-02-16 01:44:25 <luke-jr_> xelister: um, no. if it's illegal, it doesn't matter how they enforce it.
 274 2011-02-16 01:44:55 <tibano> anyone know why i'm getting this error? ------>http://pastebin.com/QgFCsUHu
 275 2011-02-16 01:45:35 user117 has joined
 276 2011-02-16 01:46:02 devojinx has left ()
 277 2011-02-16 01:46:11 <tibano> trying to run python OpenCL
 278 2011-02-16 01:46:37 <luke-jr_> xelister: octets should flow in the same direction as bits.
 279 2011-02-16 01:46:43 <luke-jr_> xelister: in any case, use network byte order
 280 2011-02-16 01:48:50 <xelister> luke-jr_: yeah but if you can easier detect it, then it is better, then if you are unalbe to detec  the attack
 281 2011-02-16 01:49:15 <luke-jr_> xelister: no, because you should be prosecuted for breaking the law.
 282 2011-02-16 01:49:28 <luke-jr_> anything that makes it easier for you to get away with it, is a bad thing
 283 2011-02-16 01:50:27 <theymos> xelister: The blkxxx.dat files are just concatenated binary blocks, IIRC.
 284 2011-02-16 01:51:14 satamusic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 285 2011-02-16 01:52:26 <xelister> theymos: I would like to add there  size, data×N, size, data×X structure, terminated by size=0; size is 4 octet integer.   sounds good? Easy to parse
 286 2011-02-16 01:52:46 <xelister> e.g. easier to splite the file without fully parsing-understanging the format of blocks
 287 2011-02-16 01:54:04 <dirtyfilthy> store every block as a file under it's hash name, split into directories by first 2 hex digits of hash,  then tar?
 288 2011-02-16 01:54:20 <dirtyfilthy> no need to even parse a file then
 289 2011-02-16 01:54:24 <xelister> luke-jr_: huh?  In this scenario the watcher (e.g. ISP) is the attacker. Also "you should be prosecuted for breaking the law" is fucking stupid. During 1940-1944 it was 'illegal' to help jews avoid genocide
 290 2011-02-16 01:54:53 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: but then you must implement a tar decoder to operate on such blocks
 291 2011-02-16 01:55:06 <bk128> if my gpu supports CUDA, will it support opencl mining?  (it's on this page http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_gpus.html)
 292 2011-02-16 01:55:13 <dirtyfilthy> this is true, i'm assuming your OS provides this
 293 2011-02-16 01:55:36 <xelister> well there is an http://www.feep.net/libtar/#Features
 294 2011-02-16 01:55:45 <xelister> I assume it is easy to use
 295 2011-02-16 01:55:53 <ntosme2> bk128: it should
 296 2011-02-16 01:56:07 <xelister> or just write own primitive format...
 297 2011-02-16 01:56:14 <luke-jr_> xelister: that's a "law" the government lacked the authority to make
 298 2011-02-16 01:56:22 <bk128> ntosme2: thanks.  trying it out on my macbook pro
 299 2011-02-16 01:56:38 <luke-jr_> xelister: governments have authority to tax
 300 2011-02-16 01:56:51 <xelister> luke-jr_: german government fully legally made it illegal to help jews avoid genocide.  This does not make it a good thing
 301 2011-02-16 01:57:18 <luke-jr_> xelister: the german government did not have the authority pass such a law.
 302 2011-02-16 01:57:26 <xelister> if you think law == good   or  law == just  then you are so stupid I do not know where to begin explaining it.
 303 2011-02-16 01:57:26 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 304 2011-02-16 01:57:37 <xelister> luke-jr_: why not? Even hitler was legally ellected
 305 2011-02-16 01:57:52 <luke-jr_> xelister: because the authority of the State is not unlimited.
 306 2011-02-16 01:57:58 <xelister> luke-jr_: or USA law of allowing Slavery
 307 2011-02-16 01:58:08 <xelister> or current Islamic laws to kill for stupid shit
 308 2011-02-16 01:58:11 <luke-jr_> there is nothing immoral about slavery. another difference.
 309 2011-02-16 01:58:16 <xelister> lol
 310 2011-02-16 01:58:28 <xelister> you are seriously trolling =)  nothing immoral about slavery
 311 2011-02-16 01:58:37 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 312 2011-02-16 01:58:48 <luke-jr_> xelister: in many ways, modern capitalist employment is worse than slavery
 313 2011-02-16 01:59:05 <luke-jr_> slave abuse is another matter
 314 2011-02-16 01:59:05 <xelister> perhaps, this does not make slavery any better
 315 2011-02-16 01:59:12 sabalaba has joined
 316 2011-02-16 01:59:43 LobsterMan has joined
 317 2011-02-16 01:59:43 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
 318 2011-02-16 01:59:43 LobsterMan has joined
 319 2011-02-16 01:59:58 <xelister> I ment slavery as a fucking slavery, not as fucking ponytails and reinbows Miss Marry and 5 happy Niggers in the medow happily working togeather in the cornfield, wtf do not waste my time, you know what I ment... talk seriously if you ahvea  point to make
 320 2011-02-16 02:00:15 * xelister back to protocol work >_<
 321 2011-02-16 02:01:39 sabalaba has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 322 2011-02-16 02:01:46 <xelister> if you think always law is good then go to islamic country and kiss your girlfriend, happy getting jailed + 100 whips by your 'good' and in fact lawfull law&court
 323 2011-02-16 02:02:32 <luke-jr_> I didn't say all law is good.
 324 2011-02-16 02:02:36 sabalaba has joined
 325 2011-02-16 02:02:43 <luke-jr_> But any law that the State has the authority to make must be obeyed.
 326 2011-02-16 02:02:46 <luke-jr_> good or not.
 327 2011-02-16 02:02:47 <xelister> bk128: yea. what gpu
 328 2011-02-16 02:02:56 <xelister> luke-jr_: of what fucking State
 329 2011-02-16 02:03:08 <xelister> by your arrogance level, I assume you're an americafag?
 330 2011-02-16 02:03:27 <luke-jr_> I live in America, but I hate its government. Does that answer your question?
 331 2011-02-16 02:03:39 <xelister> so why say to obey law of the state
 332 2011-02-16 02:03:47 <ZenMondo> So Rosa Parks was wrong for not giving up her seat? Those black people sitting at the Lunch Counter were wrong?  The Lovings were wrong for getting married?
 333 2011-02-16 02:03:56 <luke-jr_> the State has authority from God to make laws, and we are morally obliged to obey them.
 334 2011-02-16 02:04:08 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: if it was illegal, yes.
 335 2011-02-16 02:04:09 <xelister> luke-jr_: which god? *facepalm*
 336 2011-02-16 02:04:13 <luke-jr_> xelister: the one true God
 337 2011-02-16 02:04:53 <dirtyfilthy> who authoritahed who in the what now?
 338 2011-02-16 02:04:59 * xelister marks luke-jr_ as relligious nut
 339 2011-02-16 02:05:12 <ZenMondo> If you are in America then surely you know the establishment clause of the First Amendment. God has nothing to do with government.
 340 2011-02-16 02:05:32 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: "freedom of religion" is condemned heresy, and one of the major flaws in the US Constitution
 341 2011-02-16 02:05:53 <luke-jr_> as is "separation of Church and State", since the State is subject to the Church
 342 2011-02-16 02:06:14 <ZenMondo> WHICH church?
 343 2011-02-16 02:06:22 <ZenMondo> I suppose YOURS.
 344 2011-02-16 02:06:25 <dirtyfilthy> show working plz
 345 2011-02-16 02:06:34 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: the Church founded by God ofc
 346 2011-02-16 02:06:57 <luke-jr_> the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
 347 2011-02-16 02:06:57 <ZenMondo> God is a fiction. There is no evidence for the existence of any god.
 348 2011-02-16 02:07:01 <dirtyfilthy> i'm trying to figure out if this a troll or not
 349 2011-02-16 02:07:09 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: God's existence is a proven fact, and also obvious.
 350 2011-02-16 02:07:21 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: that should answer it
 351 2011-02-16 02:07:33 <ZenMondo> We are venturing into Poe's Law territory
 352 2011-02-16 02:07:52 <user117> Hi, all! May be a silly question, but is it possible to write a simple application for just payments without necessarity to download all blocks. I'm talking about phones and other gadges. Tasks are recieve payments and send payments only. As I understand, receiving can be done just by monitoring current block, and sending by sending signed transaction to net. Is it possible to make that?
 353 2011-02-16 02:08:19 <dirtyfilthy> yes
 354 2011-02-16 02:08:20 <luke-jr_> user117: no, you need the entire block chain to verify the coins exist.
 355 2011-02-16 02:08:31 <xelister> user117: you must have a wallet with coins in it.  I suppose you need to know at least this blocks that given you your coins.
 356 2011-02-16 02:08:33 <dirtyfilthy> ah you can get the block headers only
 357 2011-02-16 02:08:34 <luke-jr_> user117: phones should just remotely access a wallet on a real computer
 358 2011-02-16 02:08:34 noagendamarket has joined
 359 2011-02-16 02:09:17 <ZenMondo> Nowadays phones ARE real computers
 360 2011-02-16 02:09:36 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: then keep a full block chain on it :P
 361 2011-02-16 02:09:57 tibano has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 362 2011-02-16 02:10:03 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr_: that's not tooooo difficult
 363 2011-02-16 02:10:27 <luke-jr_> dirtyfilthy: ?
 364 2011-02-16 02:10:34 <dirtyfilthy> full block chain minus transactions
 365 2011-02-16 02:10:50 <dirtyfilthy> 161k to d/l 2000 blocks approx
 366 2011-02-16 02:11:35 <user117> luke-jr_: not me. The Network. For me is enough to see that transaction from my desktop address to phone address is accepted by some nodes. They will check all things for me, not my phone
 367 2011-02-16 02:11:35 <dirtyfilthy> so only a few meg for the entire block chain
 368 2011-02-16 02:12:03 <xelister> the first block is block #0 or #1 ?
 369 2011-02-16 02:12:04 <dirtyfilthy> user117: yeah the problem is you need to be able to handle chain forks
 370 2011-02-16 02:12:07 <dirtyfilthy> xelister: 0
 371 2011-02-16 02:12:17 <xelister> block #0 is genesis and is hardcoded,  and #1 is hardcoded as well?
 372 2011-02-16 02:12:38 <xelister> how to see block #15 in block explorere
 373 2011-02-16 02:12:42 <dirtyfilthy> #1 is not hardcoded
 374 2011-02-16 02:12:52 <dirtyfilthy> search for 15
 375 2011-02-16 02:13:11 <xelister> dirtyfilthy: url?
 376 2011-02-16 02:13:23 <xelister> nm
 377 2011-02-16 02:13:24 noagendamarket has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 378 2011-02-16 02:13:31 <xelister> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000839a8e6886ab5951d76f411475428afc90947ee320161bbf18eb6048
 379 2011-02-16 02:13:36 tibano has joined
 380 2011-02-16 02:13:40 <xelister> #0   http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
 381 2011-02-16 02:13:47 <dirtyfilthy> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000b3322c8c3ef7d2cf6da009a776e6a99ee65ec5a32f3f345712238473
 382 2011-02-16 02:14:03 <Syke> http://blockexplorer.com/b/15
 383 2011-02-16 02:14:20 <xelister> thx Syke. there should be url like that on main page
 384 2011-02-16 02:16:25 <user117> xelister: As I see the usage - I have a big computer with normal client. And phone with minimalistic software. Phone soft can only generate addresses, check transactions for them in current block and send signed transctions. So, I just transfer some coins to phone and use them out of home. I also can generate addresses to accept payments. And I can check if the payment accepted by other nodes. Where is necessarity of all blocks
 385 2011-02-16 02:16:47 <phantomcircuit> xelister, adding encryption to the p2p layer wouldn't be trivial
 386 2011-02-16 02:19:05 <dirtyfilthy> user117: if the block chain forks, you won't be able to decide which the the correct (highest total work) branch chain to use. storing the block headers is not a problem anyway, it's only a few meg
 387 2011-02-16 02:19:28 <dirtyfilthy> user117: though if you can convince me i'm wrong it'd be good to know. i'm working on a phone client
 388 2011-02-16 02:19:42 <davex__> luke-jr_, i would have thought being involved with bitcoin would be problematic for a hard-core catholic
 389 2011-02-16 02:20:50 <xelister> phantomcircuit: to protect it against mitm you need trust - exchanged IDs over secure channel
 390 2011-02-16 02:20:57 <xelister> or
 391 2011-02-16 02:21:02 <phantomcircuit> xelister, diffie hellman
 392 2011-02-16 02:21:20 <xelister> you just need to take care so that the ID under that you use in encrption layer is not tied to IP (or other IRL ident)
 393 2011-02-16 02:21:22 <xelister> so use like tor
 394 2011-02-16 02:21:25 <xelister> or freenet or i2p
 395 2011-02-16 02:21:31 <xelister> tor transport is working
 396 2011-02-16 02:21:35 <phantomcircuit> but yes protecting against mitm you'd need to run a tor like network
 397 2011-02-16 02:21:36 <user117> dirtyfilthy: What will be the worst problem with forks? I didn't dig sources a lot, just thinking about small and traffic cheap mobile client.
 398 2011-02-16 02:21:39 <xelister> freenet will soon - esp if people add to bounty =)
 399 2011-02-16 02:22:42 <xelister> what will be the block number in around end of 2012 someone can calc quickly?
 400 2011-02-16 02:22:53 <xelister> 10/h
 401 2011-02-16 02:23:15 <xelister> around 200,000
 402 2011-02-16 02:24:30 <dirtyfilthy> user117: the worst problem is that your transactions might not be in the block chain everybody is actually using
 403 2011-02-16 02:25:21 Validus has joined
 404 2011-02-16 02:26:12 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 405 2011-02-16 02:26:27 <luke-jr_> davex__: why?
 406 2011-02-16 02:26:58 <bk128> xelister: it's an 8600M GT
 407 2011-02-16 02:27:27 <xelister> really it does opencl?
 408 2011-02-16 02:27:35 <luke-jr_> bk128: worthless :p
 409 2011-02-16 02:27:53 <luke-jr_> bk128: 5.66 MH/s. my CPU can almost do that.
 410 2011-02-16 02:27:55 <user117> dirtyfilthy: what if i will monitor the current block? and if it will change, just will repeat transaction.
 411 2011-02-16 02:27:59 <bk128> xelister: http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_gpus.html
 412 2011-02-16 02:28:27 <bk128> what CPU can do that?  I thought it'd be close to worthless.
 413 2011-02-16 02:28:31 <davex__> luke-jr_, just the anti-government bent of it
 414 2011-02-16 02:28:43 <luke-jr_> bk128: i5-2400
 415 2011-02-16 02:28:54 <luke-jr_> davex__: it's not inherently anti-government.
 416 2011-02-16 02:29:12 <bk128> I need to upgrade my main computer.  running a 2.4ghz c2 duo
 417 2011-02-16 02:29:34 <davex__> luke-jr_, true...  well if it gets outlawed by a government, will you stop using it?
 418 2011-02-16 02:29:46 <davex__> er i mean the government, not "a" government
 419 2011-02-16 02:30:51 <luke-jr_> davex__: I might have to out of obedience, I suppose.
 420 2011-02-16 02:30:57 <davex__> hmm...
 421 2011-02-16 02:31:00 <luke-jr_> when it happens, I'll ask a priest
 422 2011-02-16 02:31:15 <davex__> romans 13 seems to say you should
 423 2011-02-16 02:31:28 <dirtyfilthy> user117: hmmm i'm not sure, i need to think about this a bit more and do some napkin working :)
 424 2011-02-16 02:32:46 <luke-jr_> davex__: hopefully, the government will simply prosecute bitcoin users who use it to evade taxes
 425 2011-02-16 02:32:58 <luke-jr_> in which case, things are fine so long as I report all my income properly
 426 2011-02-16 02:33:25 <bk128> or big corporations will use it to evade taxes
 427 2011-02-16 02:33:29 <bk128> maybe someday
 428 2011-02-16 02:33:49 <andrew12> ;;bc,estimate
 429 2011-02-16 02:33:50 <gribble> 34955.41361461
 430 2011-02-16 02:33:56 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
 431 2011-02-16 02:33:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108375 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 488 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 10 hours, 17 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34955.41361461
 432 2011-02-16 02:34:05 <JFK911_> hah 35000
 433 2011-02-16 02:34:09 <JFK911_> 50% jump?
 434 2011-02-16 02:34:12 JFK911_ is now known as JFK911
 435 2011-02-16 02:34:13 <luke-jr_> ;.;
 436 2011-02-16 02:34:23 <andrew12> JFK911: what's 26000*2?
 437 2011-02-16 02:34:30 <luke-jr_> davex__: my purpose for Bitcoin is to have a Tonal-compatible currency ☺
 438 2011-02-16 02:34:36 <JFK911> andrew12: 100% jump
 439 2011-02-16 02:34:37 <bk128> and i'm adding another ghash/sec on friday :)  keeps getting worse.
 440 2011-02-16 02:34:39 <andrew12> ..nevermind, misread
 441 2011-02-16 02:34:40 <JFK911> ?
 442 2011-02-16 02:34:54 <JFK911> it might approach 50%
 443 2011-02-16 02:35:07 <andrew12> i read 50% jump as 100% jump because i'm not good with percentages :p
 444 2011-02-16 02:35:15 <bk128> ;;bc,calcd 1000000 35000
 445 2011-02-16 02:35:16 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 35000, is 1 day, 17 hours, 45 minutes, and 23 seconds
 446 2011-02-16 02:35:19 <andrew12> ;;calc 26000*1.5
 447 2011-02-16 02:35:20 <gribble> 26,000 * 1.5 = 39,000
 448 2011-02-16 02:35:22 <davex__> yeah i'm hoping that too
 449 2011-02-16 02:35:26 <andrew12> ;;calc 25000*1.5
 450 2011-02-16 02:35:27 <gribble> 25,000 * 1.5 = 37,500
 451 2011-02-16 02:35:34 <andrew12> ;;calc 25000*1.4
 452 2011-02-16 02:35:35 <gribble> 25,000 * 1.4 = 35,000
 453 2011-02-16 02:35:38 <andrew12> that's a bit more accurate
 454 2011-02-16 02:36:01 <andrew12> but yes, it is getting close to 50%
 455 2011-02-16 02:36:02 <doublec> ;;calc 34955.41361461/25997.87992881
 456 2011-02-16 02:36:03 <gribble> 34 955.41361461 / 25 997.87992881 = 1.34454862
 457 2011-02-16 02:36:04 <JFK911> Right no point in labourious calculation sfor an estimate.
 458 2011-02-16 02:36:09 <JFK911> I just pulled that from my head.
 459 2011-02-16 02:36:15 <bk128> hopefully the value of btc keeps increasing at a faster rate than the difficulty
 460 2011-02-16 02:36:26 <andrew12> ;;calc [bc,estimate]/[bc,diff]
 461 2011-02-16 02:36:27 <gribble> 34,955.41361461 / 25,997.87992881 = 1.34454862
 462 2011-02-16 02:36:32 <andrew12> :P
 463 2011-02-16 02:36:35 <doublec> hehe
 464 2011-02-16 02:36:43 <doublec> I wondered if something like that was possible
 465 2011-02-16 02:36:47 <andrew12> ;;math calc [bc,estimate]/[bc,diff]
 466 2011-02-16 02:36:48 <gribble> 1.34454862129
 467 2011-02-16 02:36:52 <andrew12> doublec: how do you think ;;bc,stats et al works?
 468 2011-02-16 02:36:56 <andrew12> ;;help bc,stats
 469 2011-02-16 02:36:57 <gribble> (bc,stats <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo Current Blocks: [bc,blocks] | Current Difficulty: [bc,diff] | Next Difficulty At Block: [bc,nexttarget] | Next Difficulty In: [math calc [bc,nexttarget] - [bc,blocks]] blocks | Next Difficulty In About: [bc,timetonext] | Next Difficulty Estimate: [bc,estimate]".
 470 2011-02-16 02:37:08 <doublec> ;;calc 50/[bc,estimate]
 471 2011-02-16 02:37:09 <gribble> 50 / 34,955.41361461 = 0.0014303936
 472 2011-02-16 02:37:21 <doublec> curious what bitpenny would eventually be paying
 473 2011-02-16 02:37:26 <user117> dirtyfilthy: as food for thinking - what is the propability to get only one chain of fork from, say, 100 different nodes within 5 minutes? may be it is less than probability of postal loss, so why to bother? And when I send coins to smb. in most cases I can ask if they confirmed.
 474 2011-02-16 02:37:26 <doublec> ;;calc 45/[bc,estimate]
 475 2011-02-16 02:37:26 <andrew12> bitpenny does 10%
 476 2011-02-16 02:37:27 <gribble> 45 / 34,955.41361461 = 0.00128735424
 477 2011-02-16 02:37:36 <andrew12> s/does/keeps/
 478 2011-02-16 02:37:42 <bk128> can gribble approximate the total ghash/sec of everyone mining?
 479 2011-02-16 02:37:52 <andrew12> bk128: sure, if you know the algorithm :D
 480 2011-02-16 02:38:01 <andrew12> ;;apropos bc
 481 2011-02-16 02:38:01 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
 482 2011-02-16 02:38:34 <bk128> ;;bc,poolstats
 483 2011-02-16 02:38:36 <gribble> {"active_workers": 737, "ghashes_ps": "57.338", "getwork_ps": 344}
 484 2011-02-16 02:38:55 <bk128> is that just slush?
 485 2011-02-16 02:38:58 <andrew12> yes
 486 2011-02-16 02:39:02 <luke-jr_> does anyone use genjix's client?
 487 2011-02-16 02:39:06 <andrew12> bitpenny doesn't have stats yet
 488 2011-02-16 02:39:12 <andrew12> luke-jr_: genjix's client?
 489 2011-02-16 02:39:15 <luke-jr_> yeah
 490 2011-02-16 02:39:23 <luke-jr_> spesmilo
 491 2011-02-16 02:39:38 <doublec> I hope bitpenny goes public again soon. slush's pool is getting really big. it'd be nice to have another biggish pool to balance it.
 492 2011-02-16 02:40:01 <andrew12> doublec: you can mine to http://vps.andrew12.net:4567 which proxies to bitpenny :P
 493 2011-02-16 02:40:26 <luke-jr_> andrew12: even when it's down?
 494 2011-02-16 02:40:30 <doublec> and gives you money?
 495 2011-02-16 02:40:37 <andrew12> luke-jr_: I'm cool enough to be able to use it when it's down
 496 2011-02-16 02:40:51 <andrew12> doublec: if I add your ip and bitcoin address to my script, yes
 497 2011-02-16 02:41:13 <xelister> what encoding to use
 498 2011-02-16 02:41:27 <xelister> to embbed binary inside HTML and ASCII and \n and no-null compatible text format
 499 2011-02-16 02:41:49 <doublec> base64?
 500 2011-02-16 02:41:49 <dirtyfilthy> uuencode
 501 2011-02-16 02:42:11 <andrew12> ascii ones and zeroes
 502 2011-02-16 02:42:17 <xelister> which ones...
 503 2011-02-16 02:42:46 <andrew12> these ones: 11111
 504 2011-02-16 02:42:59 <xelister> base64 or uu
 505 2011-02-16 02:43:38 <andrew12> ascii ones and zeroes!
 506 2011-02-16 02:45:58 <dirtyfilthy> xelister: it's the same thing
 507 2011-02-16 02:46:31 noagendamarket has joined
 508 2011-02-16 02:46:33 <xelister> lol therea re 10+ variants on base64
 509 2011-02-16 02:46:35 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base64
 510 2011-02-16 02:46:44 <KBme> ;;bc,calcd 442265 25997
 511 2011-02-16 02:46:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 442265 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 25997, is 2 days, 22 hours, 7 minutes, and 44 seconds
 512 2011-02-16 02:46:59 <KBme> oh wow, -f1 makes a huge difference
 513 2011-02-16 02:47:02 <KBme> hurray
 514 2011-02-16 02:47:22 cyphase has joined
 515 2011-02-16 02:47:35 <afed> ;;bc,stats
 516 2011-02-16 02:47:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108379 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 484 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 9 hours, 48 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34982.46161615
 517 2011-02-16 02:48:19 yawniek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 518 2011-02-16 02:54:47 <foucist> hey guys.. how useful is this http://www.taters.net/btcgc.php  ?
 519 2011-02-16 02:54:58 <foucist> it doesn't seem to take into account pooling?
 520 2011-02-16 02:55:17 <foucist> or maybe that doesn't matter..
 521 2011-02-16 02:55:20 <afed> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1297823749186.jpg
 522 2011-02-16 02:55:26 <afed> /b/ is for bitcoin
 523 2011-02-16 02:55:44 <afed> foucist: highly useful thx
 524 2011-02-16 02:56:32 <foucist> afed: ok, well if i assume a 5970, and plug in 0.6 Ghz, network size 280, growth 30%.. then basically it hits 400 BTC in 4 months and then tapers off
 525 2011-02-16 02:56:45 <foucist> (150 blocks/day being the typical rate i'm told..)
 526 2011-02-16 02:57:09 <foucist> so it seems like it really slows down after 4 months from now.. might not produce many BTC at all?
 527 2011-02-16 02:57:15 <afed> btc can't really be a constant though
 528 2011-02-16 02:57:24 <afed> btc/usd i mean
 529 2011-02-16 02:57:49 <foucist> i'm not loking at hte usd part
 530 2011-02-16 02:57:53 <foucist> i put $0 in there
 531 2011-02-16 02:58:15 <afed> ok
 532 2011-02-16 02:58:29 tibano has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 533 2011-02-16 02:58:29 <grubles> kbme: -f1 as in the poclbm flag?
 534 2011-02-16 02:58:54 tibano has joined
 535 2011-02-16 02:59:04 tibano has quit (Client Quit)
 536 2011-02-16 02:59:51 <phantomcircuit> anybody want to see something uh
 537 2011-02-16 02:59:53 <phantomcircuit> neat?
 538 2011-02-16 03:00:30 <andrew12> sure?
 539 2011-02-16 03:00:33 <ntosme2> if it involves a DoS
 540 2011-02-16 03:00:43 <phantomcircuit> yeah it does
 541 2011-02-16 03:00:52 <phantomcircuit> i just need your ip
 542 2011-02-16 03:00:56 <andrew12> heh
 543 2011-02-16 03:00:57 <phantomcircuit> (it's not a network DoS)
 544 2011-02-16 03:01:04 <ntosme2> I knew you'd say that
 545 2011-02-16 03:01:16 <ntosme2> you have my IP
 546 2011-02-16 03:01:21 <andrew12> phantomcircuit: explain
 547 2011-02-16 03:01:36 <phantomcircuit> can trivially cause cpu 100%
 548 2011-02-16 03:01:39 <phantomcircuit> it's neat
 549 2011-02-16 03:01:46 <xelister> how long can a chain split be?
 550 2011-02-16 03:01:50 <xelister> under normall conditions
 551 2011-02-16 03:02:00 <andrew12> xelister: as long as the main chain -1
 552 2011-02-16 03:02:04 <xelister> uhm
 553 2011-02-16 03:02:07 <ntosme2> phantomcircuit: try me
 554 2011-02-16 03:02:10 <xelister> no I mean in practive
 555 2011-02-16 03:02:11 <xelister> practice
 556 2011-02-16 03:02:25 <andrew12> what do you mean?
 557 2011-02-16 03:02:27 <xelister> ArtForz: how long chainsplits you seen longest?
 558 2011-02-16 03:02:36 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, your freenode ip isn't connectable
 559 2011-02-16 03:02:40 <xelister> well I suppose splits bigger then say 3 blocks do not happen
 560 2011-02-16 03:02:49 <ntosme2> hmm...really
 561 2011-02-16 03:02:54 <andrew12> phantomcircuit: try vps.andrew12.net
 562 2011-02-16 03:02:56 <phantomcircuit> 8333/tcp filtered unknown
 563 2011-02-16 03:03:04 yawniek has joined
 564 2011-02-16 03:03:10 <ntosme2> odd
 565 2011-02-16 03:03:15 <ntosme2> will v6 work?
 566 2011-02-16 03:03:32 <ntosme2> I thought I had forwarded
 567 2011-02-16 03:03:44 * jgarzik returns
 568 2011-02-16 03:04:06 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I never disputed the possibility of DDoS.  I doubt that a DDoS would continue long enough to cause difficulty change.
 569 2011-02-16 03:04:18 <jgarzik> for all miners globally
 570 2011-02-16 03:05:03 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, i dont think the client listens on ipv6
 571 2011-02-16 03:05:11 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, load average?
 572 2011-02-16 03:06:39 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, lol you there?
 573 2011-02-16 03:06:49 lzd_hz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 574 2011-02-16 03:07:30 andrew12^droid has joined
 575 2011-02-16 03:07:40 <andrew12^droid> kill it :x
 576 2011-02-16 03:07:44 <phantomcircuit> rofl
 577 2011-02-16 03:08:20 <phantomcircuit> for anybody interested that was 2KB/s average after an initial spike of 60KB/s
 578 2011-02-16 03:08:44 <andrew12^droid> wtf did i do to screen
 579 2011-02-16 03:09:55 <ntosme2> neat
 580 2011-02-16 03:10:15 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, so yeah w/o a significant client modification i could probably take down the entire network
 581 2011-02-16 03:10:28 andrew12 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 582 2011-02-16 03:10:40 andrew12 has joined
 583 2011-02-16 03:10:53 <Validus> hmm i wonder for secure transfers you could do a seperate option that states a password both ppl would have to type in with the trade. so one coudlnt reneg on it
 584 2011-02-16 03:10:53 <andrew12> heh
 585 2011-02-16 03:10:56 <ntosme2> phantomcircuit: well we know who to point at when that happens >_>
 586 2011-02-16 03:11:11 andrew12^droid has quit (Client Quit)
 587 2011-02-16 03:11:19 <phantomcircuit> ntosme2, at this point anybody in this channel with any skill could replicate what i've done
 588 2011-02-16 03:11:23 <andrew12> wheee
 589 2011-02-16 03:11:23 <phantomcircuit> mah big fat mouth and all
 590 2011-02-16 03:11:45 <ntosme2> hmm, might have to read the backlog heh
 591 2011-02-16 03:11:46 <andrew12> or you can just do it the old fasioned way and do a syn flood
 592 2011-02-16 03:11:57 <Validus> phantom; your not gonna beat my reputation on being a bastard of speaking minds on irc :P
 593 2011-02-16 03:12:35 <jgarzik> there are always plenty of ways to DoS any system.  the relevant question is whether or not it can have any effect on the currency...
 594 2011-02-16 03:12:41 <phantomcircuit> Validus, wat
 595 2011-02-16 03:12:54 <Validus> u said mah big fat mouth and all. i was more being a smartass
 596 2011-02-16 03:13:26 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, actually this was just about someone betting on what the difficulty would be, DoS could trivially modify that number down fast
 597 2011-02-16 03:13:39 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: how?
 598 2011-02-16 03:13:43 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, also i could use this to capture > 50% of the networks processing power pretty trivially
 599 2011-02-16 03:14:03 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: DoS would slow down difficulty change
 600 2011-02-16 03:14:36 newsham has quit (Quit: leaving)
 601 2011-02-16 03:14:38 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well i assume the person taking bets isn't going by difficulty @ block #
 602 2011-02-16 03:15:13 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, either way this is a serious flaw, i could trivially use this to capture > 50% of the networks CPU time (and gpu time) which is the only assumption made by the system
 603 2011-02-16 03:15:28 <jgarzik> so IOW, DoS would -not- trivially modify the difficulty/target "down fast" :)
 604 2011-02-16 03:15:58 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well no if wouldn't modify the target down
 605 2011-02-16 03:16:06 <phantomcircuit> rather it would keep it from changing
 606 2011-02-16 03:16:16 <jgarzik> correct
 607 2011-02-16 03:16:25 <phantomcircuit> but really who cares
 608 2011-02-16 03:16:57 <phantomcircuit> lowering the target is irrelevent if i can guarantee nobody else finds the next block
 609 2011-02-16 03:17:01 <phantomcircuit> irrelevant
 610 2011-02-16 03:17:34 <jgarzik> that's the most relevant point.  even if you shut out all other mining nodes other than yourself, you need an enormous amount of GPU power simply to mine the blocks yourself.  therefore... a DoS buys time to fix the problem, and then life resumes.  Just like how other annoying DoS's are dealt with.
 611 2011-02-16 03:17:35 RBecker is now known as RBecker|Detached
 612 2011-02-16 03:17:40 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, a syn flood wouldn't work actually
 613 2011-02-16 03:18:01 <phantomcircuit> andrew12, that was the first thing i tried, at least on *nix it just turned on syn cookies and that was that
 614 2011-02-16 03:18:07 <jgarzik> I'd wager the problem would resolve itself in 24 hours.
 615 2011-02-16 03:18:08 sabalaba has joined
 616 2011-02-16 03:18:29 sgornick has joined
 617 2011-02-16 03:18:40 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 400000
 618 2011-02-16 03:18:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 days, 5 hours, 32 minutes, and 30 seconds
 619 2011-02-16 03:19:17 * jgarzik is not disputing that DoSing all other miners off the network is a flaw :)
 620 2011-02-16 03:19:31 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, oh and this couldnt be fixed in 24 hours
 621 2011-02-16 03:19:42 <phantomcircuit> id wager this will take about a week to fix
 622 2011-02-16 03:19:45 <jgarzik> it would probably be fixed more quickly than that
 623 2011-02-16 03:19:57 <doublec> the bug would be fixed - people upgrading to latest software would take a while
 624 2011-02-16 03:20:06 <phantomcircuit> well ill just DoS the test network off the face of the web and we'll see
 625 2011-02-16 03:20:09 <phantomcircuit> xD
 626 2011-02-16 03:20:36 lzd_hz has joined
 627 2011-02-16 03:20:37 <phantomcircuit> doublec, that's just it, this isn't a bug, it's a flaw in the network protocol
 628 2011-02-16 03:20:42 <jgarzik> doublec: true.  But I think "major sites" would be back up quickly
 629 2011-02-16 03:20:53 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: doesn't matter.  it would get fixed.
 630 2011-02-16 03:21:06 <phantomcircuit> hehe now you're tempting me to try it ;)
 631 2011-02-16 03:21:06 <jgarzik> possibly without even changing the network protocol...
 632 2011-02-16 03:21:08 <doublec> the protocol would just be changed
 633 2011-02-16 03:21:20 * phantomcircuit goes back to pudding
 634 2011-02-16 03:21:23 <doublec> that's the advantage at the moment of having one client
 635 2011-02-16 03:21:32 <jgarzik> yep
 636 2011-02-16 03:22:08 <doublec> phantomcircuit: it's good that you found it though. More vulnerability finding is good.
 637 2011-02-16 03:22:16 <phantomcircuit> so who do i tell?
 638 2011-02-16 03:22:26 <phantomcircuit> also im totally not going to fix it
 639 2011-02-16 03:22:43 <doublec> there should be a mailing list or something for security issues
 640 2011-02-16 03:22:48 <doublec> with trusted people on it
 641 2011-02-16 03:23:34 <xelister> how big where biggest chain splits?
 642 2011-02-16 03:23:57 <xelister> e.g. you are on normal network (well connected) and you see a chain split... say 3 versions of chain in generation N
 643 2011-02-16 03:23:58 <doublec> phantomcircuit: email gavin and or jgarzik?
 644 2011-02-16 03:24:01 <xelister> 4 versions in generation N+1
 645 2011-02-16 03:24:20 <xelister> 3 in N+2... 3 in N+3...  and in genration N+M back to 1 chain.   what was biggest M?
 646 2011-02-16 03:24:22 <xelister> like 5? 10?
 647 2011-02-16 03:24:23 <doublec> phantomcircuit: sell it on the forums for 10,000 btc ;)
 648 2011-02-16 03:24:26 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: gavin, tcatm, googlus, me, ...
 649 2011-02-16 03:24:48 <doublec> (by which I refer to the recent attempt to sell a facebook issue for that much)
 650 2011-02-16 03:24:58 <jgarzik> er, dooglus
 651 2011-02-16 03:25:10 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, pm?
 652 2011-02-16 03:25:29 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: whatever method, it doesn't matter
 653 2011-02-16 03:25:41 dissipate has joined
 654 2011-02-16 03:25:42 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: email works too
 655 2011-02-16 03:26:06 <jgarzik> email, irc pm, forum pm, IP over avian carrier, ...
 656 2011-02-16 03:26:59 Mrcheesenips has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 657 2011-02-16 03:28:40 Animeking has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net)
 658 2011-02-16 03:30:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, you see my pm?
 659 2011-02-16 03:32:11 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 660 2011-02-16 03:34:03 <Omni> AFK!~hopper@attic.ipv6.omnifarious.org|What's this attack?
 661 2011-02-16 03:38:00 satamusic has joined
 662 2011-02-16 03:38:00 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
 663 2011-02-16 03:38:00 satamusic has joined
 664 2011-02-16 03:38:47 <midnightmagic_> witcoin looks beautiful, good job.
 665 2011-02-16 03:39:53 Mrcheesenips has joined
 666 2011-02-16 03:39:54 Mrcheesenips has quit (Changing host)
 667 2011-02-16 03:39:54 Mrcheesenips has joined
 668 2011-02-16 03:40:25 <jgarzik> yes, saw PM and analyzed the attacked.
 669 2011-02-16 03:40:39 sgornick has joined
 670 2011-02-16 03:40:49 sgornick has quit (Changing host)
 671 2011-02-16 03:40:49 sgornick has joined
 672 2011-02-16 03:43:18 <noagendamarket> midnightmagic  its a lot easier to look at now :)
 673 2011-02-16 03:44:03 <midnightmagic_> andrew: tell us you got a tcpdump. :)
 674 2011-02-16 03:51:44 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 675 2011-02-16 04:02:18 <phantomcircuit> what's with the point of the OP_CHECKSIG stuff?!
 676 2011-02-16 04:03:17 * phantomcircuit is off to read about egc
 677 2011-02-16 04:03:28 <phantomcircuit> ecc
 678 2011-02-16 04:06:11 <JunK-Y> ecc?
 679 2011-02-16 04:06:55 <phantomcircuit> elliptic curve crypto
 680 2011-02-16 04:07:27 <JunK-Y> how its related to SHA?
 681 2011-02-16 04:07:34 <jgarzik> it's not
 682 2011-02-16 04:08:05 sabalaba has joined
 683 2011-02-16 04:08:06 <JunK-Y> i was like: i missed a part here.
 684 2011-02-16 04:08:12 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 685 2011-02-16 04:08:58 <KBme> grubles: DiabloMiner
 686 2011-02-16 04:09:08 <KBme> poclbm?
 687 2011-02-16 04:09:51 <KBme> anyone know why i have two adresses listed in listreceiveraddress?
 688 2011-02-16 04:10:33 <JunK-Y> KBme: cause you get 2 transactions?
 689 2011-02-16 04:10:42 <JunK-Y> s/get/got/
 690 2011-02-16 04:10:50 <KBme> only one, but i guess so then
 691 2011-02-16 04:11:00 <KBme> so for each transaction i will get a new one?
 692 2011-02-16 04:11:03 <Validus> it generates a new key you can use if you like
 693 2011-02-16 04:11:20 <Validus> but yes you'll get a new one each transaction
 694 2011-02-16 04:11:22 <KBme> oh, after each transaction it generates a new receiver address?
 695 2011-02-16 04:11:35 <KBme> but not replaced then
 696 2011-02-16 04:11:36 <KBme> ?
 697 2011-02-16 04:12:04 <Validus> ya, you can recieve on t he same key
 698 2011-02-16 04:12:51 <KBme> this is weird, though. i have to manually manage my adresses so it doesn't get out of hand
 699 2011-02-16 04:13:02 <KBme> also, to which address is the mined BTC transferred?
 700 2011-02-16 04:13:23 <Validus> where your mining at should have instructions where you put it
 701 2011-02-16 04:13:31 <Validus> if your on slushs you put it in your account page
 702 2011-02-16 04:14:14 <KBme> no, i mine on my own
 703 2011-02-16 04:14:17 <KBme> individually
 704 2011-02-16 04:14:20 <KBme> no pool
 705 2011-02-16 04:14:26 <[Noodles]> generated coins get their own new address
 706 2011-02-16 04:14:38 <Netsniper> i'm the unlukiest miner in the world
 707 2011-02-16 04:15:07 <Netsniper> havent generated since sept - bro, who has only 10% faster khash rate has mined 4 blocks since then
 708 2011-02-16 04:15:16 <Netsniper> !?!?!?
 709 2011-02-16 04:15:31 <jgarzik> [Noodles]: unless you have a puddinpop-hacked pool bitcoind.  IIRC, that puts the pool recipients as collectively the output of the generated coin tx.
 710 2011-02-16 04:15:55 <doublec> jgarzik: you recall correctly
 711 2011-02-16 04:15:59 <[Noodles]> well, yeah, but i somehow doubt KBme has ^.^
 712 2011-02-16 04:16:04 <jgarzik> :)
 713 2011-02-16 04:16:59 <KBme> nah should be vanilla bitcoind
 714 2011-02-16 04:17:16 <KBme> so then i have to transfer the mined BTC to my primary account?
 715 2011-02-16 04:17:22 <[Noodles]> no
 716 2011-02-16 04:17:23 <KBme> ok
 717 2011-02-16 04:17:35 <KBme> Netsniper: nah, your random number generator is off
 718 2011-02-16 04:17:42 <KBme> =)
 719 2011-02-16 04:17:50 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 720 2011-02-16 04:18:09 <KBme> i think they improved it in 2.6.26
 721 2011-02-16 04:18:10 <KBme> ;)
 722 2011-02-16 04:20:29 <afed> it doesn't matter for a fuck what account you keep your btc in
 723 2011-02-16 04:20:31 <KBme> so then when I do bitcoind listreceivedbyaddress 0 true it should show me the dough when i have finished a block?
 724 2011-02-16 04:20:39 <KBme> afed: yeah
 725 2011-02-16 04:20:47 <afed> i suggest making an encrypted virtual machine and running a bitcoin client in that
 726 2011-02-16 04:20:54 <afed> generate an address to send all your btc to
 727 2011-02-16 04:20:54 <KBme> still, i wouldn't like having tens of different accounts
 728 2011-02-16 04:21:02 <afed> then turn that fucking vm off
 729 2011-02-16 04:21:12 <afed> keep it on a usb stick disconnected from your machine
 730 2011-02-16 04:21:18 <KBme> «encrypted virtual»
 731 2011-02-16 04:21:19 <afed> only bring it up when you need your bitcoins
 732 2011-02-16 04:21:21 <KBme> are you serious?
 733 2011-02-16 04:21:23 <Validus> or just make a backup
 734 2011-02-16 04:21:25 <KBme> what the hell is that?
 735 2011-02-16 04:21:28 <Validus> lol
 736 2011-02-16 04:21:37 <afed> Validus: the point is that they're offline so they can't be stolen if your computer is compromised
 737 2011-02-16 04:21:45 <afed> KBme: vmware workstation will encrypt a vm
 738 2011-02-16 04:21:53 <Validus> if you have a backup stored somewhere then your fine
 739 2011-02-16 04:21:55 <afed> KBme: or you can just install linux on an encrypted filesystem
 740 2011-02-16 04:22:09 <afed> Validus: you're NOT fine if someone steals your wallet and sends your bitcoins away
 741 2011-02-16 04:22:14 <afed> your backup will do no good in that case
 742 2011-02-16 04:22:21 <KBme> ok, so backup my .bitcoin to a tar.gz and gpg it you mean?
 743 2011-02-16 04:22:23 <Validus> um how so
 744 2011-02-16 04:22:31 <Validus> i have a backup made after every transaction
 745 2011-02-16 04:22:36 <tcatm> KBme: only backup wallet.dat
 746 2011-02-16 04:22:37 <KBme> lol man, encrypted virtual machine
 747 2011-02-16 04:22:40 <Diablo-D3> yoR: you here?
 748 2011-02-16 04:22:58 <KBme> so just gpg walled.dat and that would be it
 749 2011-02-16 04:23:04 <KBme> wallet*
 750 2011-02-16 04:23:43 <afed> Validus: if someone steals your wallet and makes further  transactions, sending the bitcoins to some address they control, you have no way to repudiate those transactions
 751 2011-02-16 04:23:52 <afed> that is the nature of the system
 752 2011-02-16 04:24:26 <KBme> yeah, true
 753 2011-02-16 04:24:43 <KBme> so you would use a .bitcoin different from the one you usually use
 754 2011-02-16 04:24:47 <KBme> like a savings account :)
 755 2011-02-16 04:25:00 <KBme> and once in a while transfer the BTC to that
 756 2011-02-16 04:25:13 <KBme> then just shut it down, backup to gpg and remove the folder
 757 2011-02-16 04:25:14 <KBme> done
 758 2011-02-16 04:25:27 <afed> sure
 759 2011-02-16 04:25:33 <KBme> s,remove,shred if you're paranoid
 760 2011-02-16 04:26:41 <[Noodles]> just dont go online with your savings-wallet, no need to shutdown/backup/shred if your only receiving coins
 761 2011-02-16 04:27:15 <KBme> ? how do you transfer money to it if you're not online?
 762 2011-02-16 04:27:32 <[Noodles]> you transfer it to an address
 763 2011-02-16 04:27:41 <[Noodles]> the key to that address is your wallet
 764 2011-02-16 04:27:53 <JunK-Y> all credits pending in the pool are safe, right?
 765 2011-02-16 04:27:54 <[Noodles]> you dont need to be online
 766 2011-02-16 04:28:02 <KBme> yes but to receive the transfer you need to be online
 767 2011-02-16 04:28:07 <[Noodles]> no
 768 2011-02-16 04:28:11 <afed> NO
 769 2011-02-16 04:28:15 <KBme> well, so it works through a telepathic net i don't know about?
 770 2011-02-16 04:28:19 <afed> yes
 771 2011-02-16 04:28:20 <KBme> ok
 772 2011-02-16 04:28:23 <KBme> good!
 773 2011-02-16 04:28:24 <[Noodles]> you only need to be online to send coins, to USE your key
 774 2011-02-16 04:28:30 <afed> the blocks of transactions that we're burning all this energy calculating
 775 2011-02-16 04:28:51 <Validus> not like your pc probably woudlnt be on anyways
 776 2011-02-16 04:28:56 <doublec> when you next go online it'll download the blocks containing the transaction where you receive the money
 777 2011-02-16 04:28:57 <afed> did you read the paper?
 778 2011-02-16 04:29:12 <KBme> man...
 779 2011-02-16 04:29:25 <KBme> he's just saying "when you next go online"...
 780 2011-02-16 04:29:30 <KBme> so you do have to go online
 781 2011-02-16 04:29:47 <afed> i'm trying not to bite newbies but somewhere along the line the whole mechanism of how this works hasn't been conveyed to you
 782 2011-02-16 04:29:50 <KBme> how the hell would you receive a transfer without connecting?
 783 2011-02-16 04:30:00 <[Noodles]> no, you have to be online to SEE that you received something
 784 2011-02-16 04:30:13 <KBme> ok
 785 2011-02-16 04:30:18 <KBme> sorry then, i understand now
 786 2011-02-16 04:30:27 <afed> all of these blocks form a record of every transaction that has occured, once a transaction is in a block, it has happened
 787 2011-02-16 04:30:33 <[Noodles]> or you could use blockexplorer to check your receiving-address
 788 2011-02-16 04:30:38 <doublec> if you're not online you could still go to blockexplorer.com, look up your address, and see that you received the money
 789 2011-02-16 04:30:44 <doublec> oops, beaten by [Noodles]
 790 2011-02-16 04:30:50 <afed> the client to client activity is passing blocks around so every client is current, and putting new transactions out so they can be incorporated into the next block
 791 2011-02-16 04:30:50 <KBme> ok
 792 2011-02-16 04:30:54 <ntosme2> where in the source does bitcoin start connecting to other nodes to download blocks? I have yet to find it...
 793 2011-02-16 04:31:32 <KBme> so what is the actual secret? it's a private key associated with the account ID?
 794 2011-02-16 04:31:57 <KBme> the wallet.dat
 795 2011-02-16 04:32:08 <dirtyfilthy> each address is a public / private key pair
 796 2011-02-16 04:32:12 <KBme> yep
 797 2011-02-16 04:32:15 <KBme> ok, gotcha
 798 2011-02-16 04:33:30 <JunK-Y> RSA?
 799 2011-02-16 04:34:48 dwdollar1 has joined
 800 2011-02-16 04:36:37 <dirtyfilthy> ECDSA secp256k1
 801 2011-02-16 04:41:25 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 802 2011-02-16 04:41:49 <nanotube> ntosme2: net.cpp is a good start, probably :)
 803 2011-02-16 04:42:18 <CIA-57> DiabloMiner: royvanrijn master * r8d91bb1 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Added -x property, adding advanced proxy support - http://bit.ly/hBV2Md
 804 2011-02-16 04:42:20 <CIA-57> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r5e72570 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Cleaned up formatting, fixed Unicode - http://bit.ly/gpAgut
 805 2011-02-16 04:45:09 <ntosme2> nanotube: ah ConnectNode
 806 2011-02-16 04:45:24 <nanotube> :)
 807 2011-02-16 04:49:34 <xelister> nanotube: wazup =) rememer we talk long ago how to transport wallets over freenet
 808 2011-02-16 04:49:42 <nanotube> xelister: yep yep.
 809 2011-02-16 04:49:48 <xelister> nanotube: how cool that now true freenet node could work
 810 2011-02-16 04:49:55 <nanotube> so... is bitcoin over freenet now a reality?
 811 2011-02-16 04:50:08 <xelister> well, a draft rfc is almost =)
 812 2011-02-16 04:50:37 <xelister> actuall implementation can be like... I guess 2 weeks of work (1 person+) + 2 weeks of debugging, bugfixing, stabilizing, getting users etc
 813 2011-02-16 04:51:24 <ntosme2> ok correct me if I'm wrong: block generation is done by sequentially passing a nonce through sha256, looking for a value under a certain threshold
 814 2011-02-16 04:51:41 <JunK-Y> xelister: wanna read that draft :)
 815 2011-02-16 04:51:51 <xelister> you can easly hook into bitcoind code to add own code when bitcoind receives TX and BLOCK from tcp/ip network,  and also make it send accept-include some TX and BLOCKS into own inventory (sort of like getwork/setwork but for tx and blocks not for mining)
 816 2011-02-16 04:51:53 <xelister> yea?
 817 2011-02-16 04:52:10 <xelister> ntosme2: yea, well 2x sha256 to be exact
 818 2011-02-16 04:52:31 <xelister> I wonder would be enough interest to e.g. make bounty for that.
 819 2011-02-16 04:52:53 <ntosme2> hmm..just to be extra-hashed
 820 2011-02-16 04:53:07 <xelister> full bitcoin over freenet, that would even allow mining (but watch out for -5% -10% less mining due to lag... on the other hand highly anonymous coins could be better ;) is even more
 821 2011-02-16 04:53:32 <xelister> JunK-Y: ok will keep you posted =)
 822 2011-02-16 04:53:49 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 823 2011-02-16 04:53:49 <JunK-Y> xelister: not sure i'll be helpful, but im just curious.
 824 2011-02-16 04:54:16 <nanotube> xelister: sounds great. i think a forum post could garner some interest.
 825 2011-02-16 04:54:20 <KBme> you could also probably drop most of the p2p stuff from bitcoin itself if you have an anonymous p2p network
 826 2011-02-16 04:54:23 <nanotube> or maybe a freenet messaging post :)
 827 2011-02-16 04:55:49 <foucist> what are the 5970 miners coded in?
 828 2011-02-16 04:55:57 <foucist> like ati doesn't really use the cuda stuff, just opencl ?
 829 2011-02-16 04:56:00 <foucist> what are the options?
 830 2011-02-16 04:56:23 <foucist> for asm or C (lowlevel crap)
 831 2011-02-16 04:56:30 <foucist> or other lowlevel stuff?
 832 2011-02-16 04:56:54 <foucist> what was that asm-like lang called
 833 2011-02-16 04:56:57 <JunK-Y> opencl is better, since it "wrap" cuda, ati stream and cpus.
 834 2011-02-16 04:57:05 <Diablo-D3> fail.
 835 2011-02-16 04:57:15 <Diablo-D3> opencl is native on both ati and nvidia.
 836 2011-02-16 04:57:22 <Diablo-D3> opencl is also native on cpus.
 837 2011-02-16 04:58:01 <JunK-Y> only if you have recent drivers, rigth?
 838 2011-02-16 04:58:42 <xelister> foucist: most miners are opencl, yes
 839 2011-02-16 04:58:50 <xelister> JunK-Y: sdk 2.1
 840 2011-02-16 04:58:56 <xelister> btw, ATI SUCKS COCKS IN HELL
 841 2011-02-16 04:59:06 <xelister> watch out for ati drivers they are all shit
 842 2011-02-16 04:59:24 <xelister> unfortunatelly, nvidia is sloooooow so we are left with radeon and their crappy drivers
 843 2011-02-16 04:59:37 <KBme> what is paytaxfee?
 844 2011-02-16 05:00:03 <xelister> KBme: pay 0.01 for example per transfer and in return your transaction will complete as fast as usuall even when network would be spammed
 845 2011-02-16 05:00:07 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: your question makes no sense.
 846 2011-02-16 05:00:21 <KBme> oh I see
 847 2011-02-16 05:00:28 <KBme> it's some sort of "guarantee"
 848 2011-02-16 05:00:41 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: ati's compiler produces IL for the assembler, nvidia's compiler reads both opencl and cuda, and produces IL for their assembler
 849 2011-02-16 05:00:50 <KBme> so if i make it higher, the transactions are more likely to complete faster?
 850 2011-02-16 05:00:52 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: and ati has an IL compiler for x86.
 851 2011-02-16 05:00:57 <nanotube> KBme: see ,,(bc,wiki transaction fees)
 852 2011-02-16 05:00:58 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Dec 19, 2010 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
 853 2011-02-16 05:01:07 <KBme> thanks
 854 2011-02-16 05:01:11 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: ibm also has two different impls, one for POWER, one for cell SPEs
 855 2011-02-16 05:01:20 <nanotube> KBme: at the current rate of tx on the network... fees don't gain you anything in processing speed.
 856 2011-02-16 05:01:28 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 857 2011-02-16 05:01:32 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: so Im not sure where you get "wrap"
 858 2011-02-16 05:01:42 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: its native machine code for all platforms involved.
 859 2011-02-16 05:01:48 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: opencl on ps3?
 860 2011-02-16 05:02:02 <Diablo-D3> yes, and its slow
 861 2011-02-16 05:02:24 <JunK-Y> it was more in a "it abstracts" way.
 862 2011-02-16 05:02:25 <lfm> ATI has CAL and OPenCL
 863 2011-02-16 05:02:29 <KBme> meaning that networks are fast and the p2p overlay is working pretty well?
 864 2011-02-16 05:02:37 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 865 2011-02-16 05:02:43 <Diablo-D3> lfm: CAL is no longer being worked on, however
 866 2011-02-16 05:02:53 <Diablo-D3> lfm: they're only supporting it due to support contracts
 867 2011-02-16 05:03:07 <lfm> cool
 868 2011-02-16 05:03:12 <Diablo-D3> CAL isnt exactly a real language either
 869 2011-02-16 05:03:29 <Diablo-D3> its pretty close to just being IL as an assembly language
 870 2011-02-16 05:03:33 <lfm> AL means assembler language dont it?
 871 2011-02-16 05:03:33 <JunK-Y> ya, ive read all man-hours will be on opencl instead of CAL
 872 2011-02-16 05:04:13 <Diablo-D3> compute abstraction laye
 873 2011-02-16 05:04:15 <Diablo-D3> *layer
 874 2011-02-16 05:04:22 <lfm> o ok
 875 2011-02-16 05:04:44 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: thx for all those clarifications.
 876 2011-02-16 05:06:24 <JunK-Y> off-topic question, do you know any equivalent to gpu-z, but for linux?
 877 2011-02-16 05:07:14 <JFK911> lspci
 878 2011-02-16 05:07:25 bk128 has joined
 879 2011-02-16 05:07:30 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: hurr, no
 880 2011-02-16 05:07:35 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: there isnt one
 881 2011-02-16 05:08:04 <JunK-Y> JFK911: i wanna see temperature.
 882 2011-02-16 05:08:50 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: btw, the only people who use CAL are those people who really do want to bypass the compiler
 883 2011-02-16 05:09:02 <JFK911> i heard lm-sensors has support for some, but i've never personally gotten it to work, JunK-Y
 884 2011-02-16 05:09:13 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: gpu-z queries the gpu about features it supports
 885 2011-02-16 05:09:20 <Diablo-D3> its otherwise useless and pointless
 886 2011-02-16 05:09:22 <JunK-Y> JFK911: it works for cpu, but not for gpu
 887 2011-02-16 05:09:41 <JFK911> JunK-Y: right.  i heard of people getting gpu temps thru it.  but idk how.
 888 2011-02-16 05:09:51 <Diablo-D3> if you want temps, aticonfig --odgt
 889 2011-02-16 05:10:13 <luke-jr_> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo
 890 2011-02-16 05:11:12 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: im on windows now, i'll give a try tomorrow
 891 2011-02-16 05:11:14 <JunK-Y> thanks
 892 2011-02-16 05:12:12 MartianW has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 893 2011-02-16 05:12:15 <Diablo-D3> windows's drivers already do it ;)
 894 2011-02-16 05:12:22 <JunK-Y> im waiting for http://www.amazon.ca/Opencl-Programming-Guide-Aaftab-Munshi/dp/0321749642/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1297832677&sr=8-2
 895 2011-02-16 05:12:29 <Diablo-D3> its in the control panel on the overclocking tab
 896 2011-02-16 05:12:37 <JFK911> the cpuid thing will show gpu temps
 897 2011-02-16 05:12:40 <Diablo-D3> heh, those opencl books are useless
 898 2011-02-16 05:12:46 <JFK911> the ati catalyst panel is trash
 899 2011-02-16 05:12:54 <JFK911> if the gpu is busy mining the whole panel is frozen
 900 2011-02-16 05:13:00 <Diablo-D3> you dont need anything but the reference api pdf
 901 2011-02-16 05:14:39 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: im pretty new at gpu programming
 902 2011-02-16 05:16:00 foucist has left ()
 903 2011-02-16 05:16:14 <luke-jr_> JunK-Y: do a CAL miner so I can use free software drivers :D
 904 2011-02-16 05:16:53 <JunK-Y> luke-jr_: sadly im too lame for that now :)
 905 2011-02-16 05:16:59 <luke-jr_> hehe, me too ☹
 906 2011-02-16 05:19:00 <JunK-Y> im more in networking, not in gpu programming, sadly
 907 2011-02-16 05:20:04 <ZenMondo> So I dug out this special edition of TIME magazine dated Spring 1995 called "Welcome to Cyberspace" in it is a short story by Neal Stephenson called _The Great Simolean Caper_ that 16 years ago predicted a money system like Bitcoin called CryptoCredits.
 908 2011-02-16 05:20:54 <afed> have you read his books?
 909 2011-02-16 05:21:26 <ZenMondo> It also included a conspiracy by the govt to discredit electronic currency
 910 2011-02-16 05:21:33 <afed> i am p. sure snowcrash and then the diamond age are supposed to depict the future consequences of the events of cryptonomicon
 911 2011-02-16 05:21:37 <ZenMondo> I have read all of Neal Stephenson's books.
 912 2011-02-16 05:21:47 <afed> hi5
 913 2011-02-16 05:21:57 <afed> i've put zodiac and the big u aside
 914 2011-02-16 05:22:05 <afed> incase he dies without publishing anything else
 915 2011-02-16 05:22:34 <afed> he's into medieval euro martial arts, he might accidentally lop his own head off with a broadsword
 916 2011-02-16 05:22:39 <ZenMondo> I am re-reading the Baroque Cycle right now and plan on reading Cryptonomicon right afterwards.
 917 2011-02-16 05:23:10 user117 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 918 2011-02-16 05:23:20 <afed> crazy how many forward references to the baroque cycle are in cryptonomicon
 919 2011-02-16 05:23:40 <afed> like he knew he was going to go and write that stuff
 920 2011-02-16 05:23:47 <afed> or he just put in a bunch of details he could refer to later
 921 2011-02-16 05:24:08 <afed> i also haven't read anathem yet
 922 2011-02-16 05:24:25 <afed> work and study all the time :(
 923 2011-02-16 05:24:36 <afed> and waste time on irc and minecraft and crap
 924 2011-02-16 05:24:40 <xelister> nanotube: any idea about a nice inline crypto?
 925 2011-02-16 05:24:40 <ZenMondo> Anathem is one of my favorite books of all time.
 926 2011-02-16 05:24:42 <xelister> pubkey
 927 2011-02-16 05:24:44 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: aticonfig -odgt works fine, thanks
 928 2011-02-16 05:24:52 <xelister> is openpgp easy to implement in java you think?
 929 2011-02-16 05:25:28 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 930 2011-02-16 05:25:38 <xelister> inline openpgp seems perfect. but will it be easy to handle from say inside freenet plugin in java
 931 2011-02-16 05:25:43 <nanotube> xelister: nice inline crypto... well there's gpgme library...
 932 2011-02-16 05:25:51 <nanotube> i bet there are java bindings for that.
 933 2011-02-16 05:25:59 <xelister> we can make bitcoin over frennet
 934 2011-02-16 05:26:03 <xelister> MORE SECURE THEN FREENET
 935 2011-02-16 05:26:09 <xelister> by using fucking awesome tunnels
 936 2011-02-16 05:26:20 <xelister> BITCOIN OVER TUNNELS OVER FREENET TUNNELS.  how anonymous is that lol
 937 2011-02-16 05:26:27 <nanotube> haha
 938 2011-02-16 05:26:31 <lfm> slower than bitcoin or freenet alone
 939 2011-02-16 05:26:32 <xelister> normall freenet will not do that yet, because it would make traffic x10 more
 940 2011-02-16 05:26:39 <xelister> but this is business
 941 2011-02-16 05:26:41 <xelister> so.
 942 2011-02-16 05:26:42 <xelister> :)
 943 2011-02-16 05:26:56 <xelister> lfm: yeah but if you want to make absolutelly super secret transaction
 944 2011-02-16 05:27:35 <luke-jr_> yawn
 945 2011-02-16 05:27:38 <xelister> then you dont care about your donation to EFF / donation to Chinese disidents / Ordering of 10 kG plutonium  will it reach recipient next friday or saturaday
 946 2011-02-16 05:27:40 <ZenMondo> Isn't Bitcoin already anonymous?
 947 2011-02-16 05:27:43 <xelister> ZenMondo: no
 948 2011-02-16 05:27:45 <luke-jr_> so who's tried genjix's client?
 949 2011-02-16 05:27:50 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: more or less
 950 2011-02-16 05:27:58 <luke-jr_> ZenMondo: it's as anonymous as you make it
 951 2011-02-16 05:28:36 <xelister> nanotube: just make such server run on VPN bought by BTC, and everyone can suck your dong =)
 952 2011-02-16 05:28:53 <luke-jr_> lol
 953 2011-02-16 05:29:06 <nanotube> heh
 954 2011-02-16 05:29:52 <luke-jr_> anyhow, I added stuff to genjix's client to make it work with a normal RPC server
 955 2011-02-16 05:29:53 <luke-jr_> enjoy
 956 2011-02-16 05:29:55 <xelister> <8 years later> oh how you found me? Yea some guy bought this VPN from me before the China War.  Da.  Da... Who it was? A shto ty mówisz? poszedł won, da!
 957 2011-02-16 05:30:01 <luke-jr_> maybe someday I'll get to Tonal support
 958 2011-02-16 05:30:36 <ZenMondo> Now I know a bit about freenent though I don't run a node. How would it be possible to be on the p2p network of bitcoin on an undernet like freenet?
 959 2011-02-16 05:31:07 <xelister> ZenMondo: gateway nodes
 960 2011-02-16 05:31:20 <xelister> basically you just need 2 types of data to push/pull
 961 2011-02-16 05:31:22 <xelister> blocks
 962 2011-02-16 05:31:25 <xelister> and transacations
 963 2011-02-16 05:31:58 <xelister> and blocks are perfectly suited for distributed static content publishing anon system, like freenet
 964 2011-02-16 05:32:49 <xelister> since they will be massdownloaded
 965 2011-02-16 05:33:11 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
 966 2011-02-16 05:33:30 <xelister> ZenMondo: install a freenet node it is 3 minutes literally =) and you could help us test this miracle of anon world
 967 2011-02-16 05:42:54 davux has joined
 968 2011-02-16 05:43:05 <davux> ;help
 969 2011-02-16 05:43:08 <davux> ;;help
 970 2011-02-16 05:43:09 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
 971 2011-02-16 05:43:58 <davux> how do you know the estimated time from the hash rate?
 972 2011-02-16 05:44:35 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 2000
 973 2011-02-16 05:44:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 year, 40 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 20 minutes, and 22 seconds
 974 2011-02-16 05:45:49 <davux> ;;,bc,calc 559726
 975 2011-02-16 05:45:50 <gribble> Error: ",bc,calc" is not a valid command.
 976 2011-02-16 05:45:55 <davux> ;;bc,calc 559726
 977 2011-02-16 05:45:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 559726 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 2 days, 7 hours, 24 minutes, and 50 seconds
 978 2011-02-16 05:46:15 <davux> oh, no
 979 2011-02-16 05:46:19 <davux> haha
 980 2011-02-16 05:46:31 <davux> ;;bc,calc 560
 981 2011-02-16 05:46:32 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 560 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 6 years, 16 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 55 minutes, and 35 seconds
 982 2011-02-16 05:46:35 <davux> :D
 983 2011-02-16 05:47:01 jgarzik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 984 2011-02-16 05:47:04 <davux> gethashespersec gives an answer in hps, not khps...
 985 2011-02-16 05:48:17 <JunK-Y> ?
 986 2011-02-16 05:49:24 <JunK-Y> nanotube: The processing of one 512-bit block is performed in 66 clock cycles and the bit-rate achieved is 7.75Mbps / MHz on the input of the SHA256 core.   sounds good huh?
 987 2011-02-16 05:51:19 jgarzik has joined
 988 2011-02-16 06:01:30 <xelister> yey 500 line specyfication
 989 2011-02-16 06:01:36 <xelister> its hard to get shit right in details.
 990 2011-02-16 06:09:01 pwrgeek has joined
 991 2011-02-16 06:11:27 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,calc.11973
 992 2011-02-16 06:11:28 <gribble> Error: "bc,calc.11973" is not a valid command.
 993 2011-02-16 06:11:41 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,calc,11973
 994 2011-02-16 06:11:41 <gribble> Error: "bc,calc,11973" is not a valid command.
 995 2011-02-16 06:12:10 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,calc 11973
 996 2011-02-16 06:12:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 11973 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 15 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 33 minutes, and 7 seconds
 997 2011-02-16 06:14:30 <ntosme2> wow...9 templates for PushMessage
 998 2011-02-16 06:16:59 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
 999 2011-02-16 06:16:59 jgarzik has joined
1000 2011-02-16 06:17:56 <jgarzik> ntosme2: any other language would have forced a more sane solution on the programmer :)
1001 2011-02-16 06:19:49 <pwrgeek> Is there a simple library (JAVA or C) implementing the BC protocol anywhere?
1002 2011-02-16 06:20:08 <pwrgeek> Working on an iphone app and don't wan't to reinvent the wheel
1003 2011-02-16 06:20:10 skeledrew has joined
1004 2011-02-16 06:20:13 <ntosme2> jgarzik: like Python's def fun(*arg):
1005 2011-02-16 06:22:47 <larsig> is it possible to estimate how many users who are connected to the btc network?
1006 2011-02-16 06:25:01 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1007 2011-02-16 06:25:11 <ntosme2> larsig: write a crawler?
1008 2011-02-16 06:25:28 <ntosme2> I've done a similar one for gnutella
1009 2011-02-16 06:26:39 <midnightmagic_> ZenMondo: not much of a prediction, hashcash-like systems have been dreamed up for decades.
1010 2011-02-16 06:27:10 <ZenMondo> well A decade and a half at least. :)
1011 2011-02-16 06:27:40 <ZenMondo> hashcash was a system to combat spam. Not really currency.
1012 2011-02-16 06:28:09 <pwrgeek> :larsig hard to do.  If you analyze slush's pool he has 738 workers right now and has produced 20% of blocks over last 145 so if you figure 20% of cpu power translates to 20% of computers then there are around 3690
1013 2011-02-16 06:28:54 <[Noodles]> that would be miners only
1014 2011-02-16 06:29:09 <pwrgeek> I know a lot of approximations, but prob as close as anyone can get without serious traffic analysis
1015 2011-02-16 06:30:55 <pwrgeek> [Noodles]: true but there aren't many clients on the network right now not mining
1016 2011-02-16 06:31:19 <[Noodles]> says who?
1017 2011-02-16 06:31:48 <ZenMondo> pwrgeek: thats an assertion where is your evidence?
1018 2011-02-16 06:32:18 <pwrgeek> [Noodles]: anecdotal only.
1019 2011-02-16 06:32:37 <pwrgeek> why would you be on the network and not attempt to generate
1020 2011-02-16 06:32:44 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
1021 2011-02-16 06:32:54 <[Noodles]> to accept payments and/or donations?
1022 2011-02-16 06:32:55 <ZenMondo> to not peg your processor.
1023 2011-02-16 06:33:06 <[Noodles]> to pay and/or donate?
1024 2011-02-16 06:33:50 <pwrgeek> no need to be online to accept payments unless ther are for real time goods otherwise connect occasionally to gather them
1025 2011-02-16 06:34:14 * jgarzik has a number of non-generating nodes on the network
1026 2011-02-16 06:34:22 <pwrgeek> In my case a pegged processor is a good thing.
1027 2011-02-16 06:36:13 rame has joined
1028 2011-02-16 06:36:16 <[Noodles]> how do you process orders of your customers if your node is not online?
1029 2011-02-16 06:36:44 <[Noodles]> might work for your single-donation-address, but not for a shop/service accepting btc-payments
1030 2011-02-16 06:37:14 <pwrgeek> True, but how many of those are there right now
1031 2011-02-16 06:37:37 <pwrgeek> how many regular people are there in comparison
1032 2011-02-16 06:38:34 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ps i think my attack can be solved with a single line
1033 2011-02-16 06:38:48 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lets test...
1034 2011-02-16 06:39:03 <[Noodles]> i've got more non-generating nodes online, than those that generate (which is actually just 1)
1035 2011-02-16 06:40:19 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: ping
1036 2011-02-16 06:40:32 <pwrgeek> Interesting! I think that will be the trend going forward as well, just a gut feeling right now that the majority of nodes are generating and that therefore my math is reasonably close (may be off by as much as a factor of 10)
1037 2011-02-16 06:40:59 <jgarzik> who says the majority of nodes are generating?
1038 2011-02-16 06:41:06 <jgarzik> the opposite seems highly likely
1039 2011-02-16 06:41:19 <jgarzik> mining power is consolidating
1040 2011-02-16 06:41:21 <phantomcircuit> that's fairly easy to test
1041 2011-02-16 06:41:58 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, main.cpp:2640
1042 2011-02-16 06:42:04 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, that looks uhm... wrong
1043 2011-02-16 06:42:34 <pwrgeek> jgarzik: In the future it is highly likely, right now most people on the network are enthusiasts or hobbyists who are more likely to generate
1044 2011-02-16 06:42:50 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik, ?
1045 2011-02-16 06:42:55 <genjix> luke-jr_: hey just saw your branch... got stuff!
1046 2011-02-16 06:42:57 genjix_ has joined
1047 2011-02-16 06:43:06 genjix_ has quit (Client Quit)
1048 2011-02-16 06:43:13 <genjix> d
1049 2011-02-16 06:44:02 <pwrgeek> anyway does anyone know if there is a C (preferably) lib that implements the protocol.  If not there should be so that as more clients get writeen they can all use the same protocol backend
1050 2011-02-16 06:44:16 <genjix> i agree :p
1051 2011-02-16 06:44:17 <jgarzik> pwrgeek: I'm not sure I agree with that hand-waving assertion ;-)   Power geeks get access to a free payment network, whether they generate or not.
1052 2011-02-16 06:44:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: changing that to 2000 won't fix the problem AFAICS
1053 2011-02-16 06:44:53 <genjix> btw, I've never generated a coin ever and neither has my sister or other 4 irl people i know either
1054 2011-02-16 06:45:38 <genjix> jaromil: hey did you manage to get that message to caedes? did he do it?
1055 2011-02-16 06:45:56 <genjix> ;;bc,seen luke-jr_
1056 2011-02-16 06:45:57 <gribble> Error: "bc,seen" is not a valid command.
1057 2011-02-16 06:46:01 <genjix> ;;seen luke-jr_
1058 2011-02-16 06:46:01 <gribble> luke-jr_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 15 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <luke-jr_> maybe someday I'll get to Tonal support
1059 2011-02-16 06:46:07 <pwrgeek> I'm in slush's pool after several months on my own and no coins either
1060 2011-02-16 06:46:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well we're about to see
1061 2011-02-16 06:47:28 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1062 2011-02-16 06:47:58 devon_hillard has joined
1063 2011-02-16 06:48:47 <genjix> luke-jr_: this is what I imagined for a settings dialog, http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7/dialogs-configdialog.html ... you want to put something like that in? I've been using the Oxygen icon set so you should take things from there (to be consistent), http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Oxygen+Icons?content=74184
1064 2011-02-16 06:49:10 <genjix> ... just a suggestion :) not forcing anything
1065 2011-02-16 06:49:22 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, lol no that didnt help at all
1066 2011-02-16 06:49:40 <phantomcircuit> well it definitely slowed it down slightly
1067 2011-02-16 06:50:26 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: that's about what I would expect
1068 2011-02-16 06:50:38 <phantomcircuit> also the real problem is memory
1069 2011-02-16 06:50:45 <phantomcircuit> possibly there is a leak somewhere
1070 2011-02-16 06:50:58 Kiba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1071 2011-02-16 06:51:26 rhett` has joined
1072 2011-02-16 06:51:59 <bk128> pwrgeek: genjix: are you guys running gpu miners?
1073 2011-02-16 06:52:15 <genjix> i've never mined before :p
1074 2011-02-16 06:52:55 <genjix> not worth my time to setup for the payoff involved
1075 2011-02-16 06:52:59 <pwrgeek> bk128: running an old 4350 until my new 5770 comes in (gets paid for) ;-)
1076 2011-02-16 06:53:45 <pwrgeek> more of an experiment and wanting to help strengthen the network than to actually make money.
1077 2011-02-16 06:53:47 <bk128> genjix: I just bought some hardware for $700.  I calculated it'll take a month to pay it off (assuming the difficulty and exchange rate increase proportionally)
1078 2011-02-16 06:54:12 <bk128> tried to factor in power costs and exchange fees too
1079 2011-02-16 06:54:35 <rhett`> I just built a computer with a m4a78t-e and a six core phenom and cant get it to post anyone that can help me troubleshoot?
1080 2011-02-16 06:54:40 <pwrgeek> bk128: right now I calculate power fees at 0 as its winter where I'm located
1081 2011-02-16 06:54:52 <pwrgeek> CPU/GPU heat offsets heating energy cost
1082 2011-02-16 06:55:05 <bk128> yeah.  where i live though we can use gas which is cheaper
1083 2011-02-16 06:55:13 <midnightmagic_> rhett`: not the best place for generic computer help. :-(
1084 2011-02-16 06:55:34 <rhett`> yeah i suppose
1085 2011-02-16 06:55:38 <ZenMondo> Does it power up and then power right off?
1086 2011-02-16 06:56:29 <pwrgeek> rhett': BIOS version?
1087 2011-02-16 06:56:31 <bk128> in the summer, you're going to pay extra.  pay for the gpu's to heat your apartment then pay for your air conditioners to pump the heat out
1088 2011-02-16 06:56:31 <midnightmagic_> ah, someone to help you. :) you lucked out. you gents mind taking it to privmsg? :)
1089 2011-02-16 06:56:33 <rhett`> no it stays on the fans run the motherboard led is lit and it seems to work fine no beeps or nothing just not getting anything on the monitor
1090 2011-02-16 06:56:39 <rhett`> sure man
1091 2011-02-16 06:56:56 <pwrgeek> bk128: in the summer I'll prob turn it off
1092 2011-02-16 06:57:11 <midnightmagic_> no biggie, just at the moment it's tough to follow the phantomcircuit hack thread.
1093 2011-02-16 06:57:14 <pwrgeek> no AC in the house
1094 2011-02-16 06:57:24 <da2ce7> hey back
1095 2011-02-16 06:57:29 <bk128> pwrgeek: run it in a tent :)
1096 2011-02-16 06:57:38 <da2ce7> :)
1097 2011-02-16 06:57:46 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, , ?
1098 2011-02-16 06:58:02 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
1099 2011-02-16 06:58:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108406 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 457 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 35 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34831.52962166
1100 2011-02-16 06:58:11 <pwrgeek> bk128: might work, course it gets to 105F here so it might just overheat and crash
1101 2011-02-16 06:58:24 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1102 2011-02-16 06:58:46 <bk128> pwrgeek: you'd have to see if it's worth investing in a large passive radiator water cooling system
1103 2011-02-16 06:58:59 molecular has joined
1104 2011-02-16 06:59:04 <pwrgeek> bk128: for a 4350 not a chance
1105 2011-02-16 06:59:10 <bk128> that pumps to outside.  that's what i might do
1106 2011-02-16 06:59:20 <bk128> right, not worth it for the 4350
1107 2011-02-16 06:59:37 <midnightmagic_> jesus, next difficulty est. almost at 35000
1108 2011-02-16 06:59:51 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1109 2011-02-16 07:00:05 <bk128> yeah, it keeps going up.  and I'm adding another 1ghash/sec on friday :)
1110 2011-02-16 07:00:26 <pwrgeek> anyway guess there isn't a C lib like what I'm looking for so now the eternal question.  Do it right and write one or hack what is there into your code and kick the can down the road
1111 2011-02-16 07:00:30 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: trying to follow you and jgarzik and simultaneously duplicate both your hack and a fix is tough with all the chatter.
1112 2011-02-16 07:01:36 <Validus> welcome to irc
1113 2011-02-16 07:01:40 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, fix doesnt work it actually might make it worse
1114 2011-02-16 07:02:03 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: i'm doing something else.
1115 2011-02-16 07:02:19 <phantomcircuit> k
1116 2011-02-16 07:03:04 <bk128> has anyone watercooled their 5870's?
1117 2011-02-16 07:03:31 <midnightmagic_> bk128: there's a guy in norway who hooked up a watercooler to his bathroom floor
1118 2011-02-16 07:03:45 <phantomcircuit> lol
1119 2011-02-16 07:04:00 <bk128> to his bathroom floor?   like a bunch of pipes laid out?
1120 2011-02-16 07:04:13 <bk128> series of tubes
1121 2011-02-16 07:04:14 <midnightmagic_> no, like radiant floor heating, fed by the watercoolers in his miners.
1122 2011-02-16 07:04:20 <bk128> lol
1123 2011-02-16 07:04:30 <midnightmagic_> so yeah, i guess.. series of tubes.
1124 2011-02-16 07:06:04 <pwrgeek> ;;bc,stats
1125 2011-02-16 07:06:06 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108408 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 455 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34852.16307452
1126 2011-02-16 07:06:10 <phantomcircuit> just as a uhm academic question
1127 2011-02-16 07:06:18 <phantomcircuit> is there a way to short BTC?
1128 2011-02-16 07:06:30 <midnightmagic_> i don't think any markets have taken the risk yet
1129 2011-02-16 07:06:45 <midnightmagic_> or maybe you can in bitcoin-otc
1130 2011-02-16 07:07:01 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, a joke ;)
1131 2011-02-16 07:07:10 <midnightmagic_> i know
1132 2011-02-16 07:07:35 <pwrgeek> phantomcircuit: way too much counterparty risk for any sane person
1133 2011-02-16 07:07:36 <OneFixt> phantomcircuit: midnightmagic_: it's been done
1134 2011-02-16 07:07:38 <midnightmagic_> the most-fun thing to do with a joke is to answer it seriously. :)
1135 2011-02-16 07:07:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
1136 2011-02-16 07:08:00 <lfm> phantomcircuit: the only way I can immagine doing a short would be to borrow some
1137 2011-02-16 07:08:14 <phantomcircuit> lfm, well yeah that's what a short is
1138 2011-02-16 07:08:37 <lfm> phantomcircuit: you just have to find someone willing to lend
1139 2011-02-16 07:10:48 <phantomcircuit> hopefully nobody in here is dumb enough to let me borrow BTC
1140 2011-02-16 07:10:52 <phantomcircuit> lets try otc
1141 2011-02-16 07:11:01 <midnightmagic_> i'll lend you 1 :-)
1142 2011-02-16 07:11:07 FreeMoney has joined
1143 2011-02-16 07:11:11 <lfm> you have any colateral?
1144 2011-02-16 07:11:39 <phantomcircuit> sure i have collateral
1145 2011-02-16 07:12:19 <phantomcircuit> ill place current market value x 2 in whatever currency you'd like in an escrow account somewhere
1146 2011-02-16 07:13:48 <midnightmagic_> it'll be tough to break the hallucination. people want to believe in a system outside of the tiny box of their most-hated enemy.
1147 2011-02-16 07:15:13 <phantomcircuit> well obviously my first move would be to cause panic by spreading rumors that i've managed to steal everybodies wallet
1148 2011-02-16 07:15:19 <phantomcircuit> that would probably do it actually
1149 2011-02-16 07:15:51 <jgarzik> doubtful
1150 2011-02-16 07:17:00 <jgarzik> it's easy enough to distinguish between a grotty implementation and fundamental cryptographic integrity problems
1151 2011-02-16 07:17:32 <phantomcircuit> stealing wallets is an implementation problem
1152 2011-02-16 07:17:39 <phantomcircuit> all your keys r belong to us
1153 2011-02-16 07:17:51 <lfm> all youd need is some buffer overflow in the main client
1154 2011-02-16 07:18:02 <jgarzik> wallets can always be stolen, just like cash can be stolen from your physical wallet.
1155 2011-02-16 07:19:42 <jgarzik> if all data is encrypted in storage, there's still in-RAM attacks on the client.  OTOH, even if my house is as secure as like Fort Knox, there remain attacks thieves may make on me when I venture outside to spend cash.
1156 2011-02-16 07:20:18 <lfm> jgarzik: you go outside?!?!
1157 2011-02-16 07:21:06 <jgarzik> the easiest attacks on bitcoin are simply to copy the unecrypted wallet off of some fool's hard drive  (IMHO, it should be encrypted when stored)
1158 2011-02-16 07:21:14 <jgarzik> we all await the first bitcoin virus :)
1159 2011-02-16 07:22:02 <midnightmagic_> even if it is encrypted, whatever steps you take to decrypt it are revealed and duplicatable by attacker
1160 2011-02-16 07:22:27 <jgarzik> in general, protecting private keys is an old problem with known parameters -- and notably, largely peripheral to the fundamental strengths of bitcoin
1161 2011-02-16 07:22:30 <Validus> i think a cool feature would be beside the balance it can retrieve the rate from a website and you can select what you want it to display in
1162 2011-02-16 07:22:37 <midnightmagic_> i guess unless you never intend to spend them..
1163 2011-02-16 07:22:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ps that patch only protects clients with a -maxconnections
1164 2011-02-16 07:23:17 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: true
1165 2011-02-16 07:23:42 <phantomcircuit> and even for them doesn't help the cpu starvation
1166 2011-02-16 07:24:16 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: well the fix is a hack.  the real fix is to add flow control.
1167 2011-02-16 07:24:54 <midnightmagic_> ah i was right after all.
1168 2011-02-16 07:24:56 * midnightmagic_ likes being right.
1169 2011-02-16 07:25:12 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, about what?
1170 2011-02-16 07:25:26 satamusic has joined
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1172 2011-02-16 07:25:26 satamusic has joined
1173 2011-02-16 07:25:49 <midnightmagic_> oh, sorry, I was looking at Mt Gox trades..! i had too much coffee today, my fingers are a little jittery
1174 2011-02-16 07:26:53 <phantomcircuit> dat crash
1175 2011-02-16 07:26:55 yay6892 has joined
1176 2011-02-16 07:28:29 <midnightmagic_> i love the persistence of all those folks still in @$0.80s :)
1177 2011-02-16 07:31:30 <xelister> midnightmagic_: =)
1178 2011-02-16 07:33:11 <midnightmagic_> it's kind of like insurance. "You shall not pass! Not until I have my BTC!"
1179 2011-02-16 07:34:18 dissipate has joined
1180 2011-02-16 07:34:53 bk128 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1181 2011-02-16 07:35:49 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it seems the more serious problem is that the buffer isn't cleared when the rogue client disconnects
1182 2011-02-16 07:36:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: that sounds strange
1183 2011-02-16 07:38:06 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1184 2011-02-16 07:38:07 * xelister should build his bitcoind with forced debug/asserts of STL & boost e.g. vectors
1185 2011-02-16 07:38:09 * xelister like a boss
1186 2011-02-16 07:38:35 bk128 has joined
1187 2011-02-16 07:38:35 bk128 has quit (Changing host)
1188 2011-02-16 07:38:35 bk128 has joined
1189 2011-02-16 07:39:26 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: close to bedtime here.  I'll monitor jgarzik@gmail.com  and IRC for the next hour or so, off and on
1190 2011-02-16 07:39:35 <phantomcircuit> k
1191 2011-02-16 07:40:07 genjix has joined
1192 2011-02-16 07:40:11 <phantomcircuit> im probably about to go play cs:s anyways
1193 2011-02-16 07:42:46 TheAncientGoat has joined
1194 2011-02-16 07:43:55 yay6892 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1195 2011-02-16 07:44:50 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1196 2011-02-16 07:46:05 rhett` has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1197 2011-02-16 07:46:09 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, all hostile clients disconnected memory still in use
1198 2011-02-16 07:48:02 octarine has quit (oh_hai!~jodo@c-24-5-11-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1199 2011-02-16 07:53:39 <phantomcircuit> lol the op_checksig stuff is hilarious
1200 2011-02-16 07:56:43 foucist has joined
1201 2011-02-16 07:58:29 TheAncientGoat_ has joined
1202 2011-02-16 07:59:22 TheAncientGoat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1203 2011-02-16 07:59:38 phantomcircuit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1204 2011-02-16 08:00:12 phantomcircuit has joined
1205 2011-02-16 08:00:31 <rame> Somebody needs to establish the 1st bank of bitcoin. Offering loans
1206 2011-02-16 08:00:46 <phantomcircuit> it's not going to be me
1207 2011-02-16 08:00:48 <phantomcircuit> xD
1208 2011-02-16 08:01:22 <foucist> are there any video cards better than 5970 at all?
1209 2011-02-16 08:01:28 <foucist> like what about the workstation cards
1210 2011-02-16 08:01:32 <foucist> or other dedicated gpu cards
1211 2011-02-16 08:02:16 <rame> 6970 ;p
1212 2011-02-16 08:02:49 <rame> For once I kinda wish I didn't get a gtx480
1213 2011-02-16 08:05:02 <foucist> what about the quadros or /we
1214 2011-02-16 08:05:14 <foucist> oh that's nvidia
1215 2011-02-16 08:06:43 <bk128> rame: for bitcoin, the 6970 is supposed to just be comparable to the 5970.
1216 2011-02-16 08:07:35 <[Noodles]> wrong, 6970 is a singleGPU card, 5970 is dualGPU
1217 2011-02-16 08:07:40 <phantomcircuit> bk128, same number of integer units
1218 2011-02-16 08:09:15 <xelister> JunK-Y: USK@oG7cGoUEBuHyulWpcmqV0yc-I569Re2A7RRs8zRljEs,IWIcXczmLdP9FEjTvoxJgGnXnK5~PxOppN-wYSADPWQ,AQACAAE/bitcoin-over-freenet/1/
1219 2011-02-16 08:10:10 <foucist> rame: 6970 isn't better.. it's only $380 too
1220 2011-02-16 08:10:15 <foucist> er yeah
1221 2011-02-16 08:10:21 <foucist> 6990 is what's next..
1222 2011-02-16 08:10:40 <bk128> phantomcircuit: are those the "shaders"?
1223 2011-02-16 08:10:53 <TheAncientGoat_> Oh god, ad in gmail "- Develop in COBOL, deploy in Java, and lower TCO"
1224 2011-02-16 08:11:16 <phantomcircuit> TheAncientGoat_, dem cross converters
1225 2011-02-16 08:11:53 <TheAncientGoat_> but... why
1226 2011-02-16 08:12:42 <xelister> TheAncientGoat_: ha ha lol wtf
1227 2011-02-16 08:13:23 <foucist> so who the hell is buying the $1400 5970 radeons?  4GB DDR5 RAM and all that BS :P
1228 2011-02-16 08:13:37 <xelister> Develop on COBOL.  Code on punchout cards.   Deploy in Java.  PATENT.  BUY STOCK.   ???  Profit
1229 2011-02-16 08:13:54 <phantomcircuit> foucist, ricers
1230 2011-02-16 08:16:31 <bk128> can any games use that much video ram?  what would it be used for?  super hd textures?
1231 2011-02-16 08:16:38 devon_hillard_ has joined
1232 2011-02-16 08:17:26 <phantomcircuit> bk128, ridiculous sized maps
1233 2011-02-16 08:17:43 larsivi has joined
1234 2011-02-16 08:17:46 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1235 2011-02-16 08:18:01 <Validus> tessla is very taxing
1236 2011-02-16 08:18:02 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: define "memory still in use"?  once allocated, the OS may not recover the memory necessarily, if you're doing something like sbrk(2)
1237 2011-02-16 08:18:07 <xelister> btw we have draft of bitcoin over freenet
1238 2011-02-16 08:18:21 genjix has quit (Changing host)
1239 2011-02-16 08:18:21 genjix has joined
1240 2011-02-16 08:18:25 <jgarzik> even if the process does the C++ equivalent of free(3)
1241 2011-02-16 08:18:57 <xelister> 4 gb ram is ridiculous imo
1242 2011-02-16 08:19:25 <xelister> you could have an HD movie instead the damn FACE of every enemy in the game, and still under-user it
1243 2011-02-16 08:19:53 <MT`AwAy> btw
1244 2011-02-16 08:19:54 * jgarzik will sell anyone a brand new 5970 for 1000 BTC, shipped anywhere in the world
1245 2011-02-16 08:19:59 <foucist> Validus: what's tesla? i keep seeing mentions of it?  ithought it was a gpu card?
1246 2011-02-16 08:20:02 <MT`AwAy> wtf happened on Feb 11th ?
1247 2011-02-16 08:20:11 <genjix> ?
1248 2011-02-16 08:20:13 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1249 2011-02-16 08:20:22 <MT`AwAy> maybe 10th
1250 2011-02-16 08:20:23 <xelister> jgarzik: from USA?
1251 2011-02-16 08:20:34 <jgarzik> MT`AwAy: slashdotting on Feb 10
1252 2011-02-16 08:20:38 <xelister> meh there is +30% stupid customs border tax on USA->EU it seems
1253 2011-02-16 08:20:41 <Validus> its a directx 11 thing
1254 2011-02-16 08:20:46 <foucist> oh
1255 2011-02-16 08:20:48 <jgarzik> xelister: yes
1256 2011-02-16 08:21:00 <MT`AwAy> jgarzik, ok, I see
1257 2011-02-16 08:21:06 <xelister> ok I know, my cousing is flying from USA
1258 2011-02-16 08:21:10 <xelister> with a bag of cocain
1259 2011-02-16 08:21:17 <xelister> perhaps we can hide an radone there!  no.. wait..
1260 2011-02-16 08:21:18 <da2ce7> :)
1261 2011-02-16 08:21:22 <MT`AwAy> http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7836/bitcoinwikistats.png <- I  was wondering about that
1262 2011-02-16 08:21:27 * jgarzik will sell anyone a brand new 5970 for 1000 BTC, shipped anywhere in the world (you pay any import taxes / customs / VAT fees etc.)
1263 2011-02-16 08:21:36 <da2ce7> xelister, thanks for the great work!
1264 2011-02-16 08:21:55 <xelister> da2ce7: yey \o/   -otc trust to johnyh as always please =)
1265 2011-02-16 08:22:15 <xelister> everyoen has freenet right?  USK@oG7cGoUEBuHyulWpcmqV0yc-I569Re2A7RRs8zRljEs,IWIcXczmLdP9FEjTvoxJgGnXnK5~PxOppN-wYSADPWQ,AQACAAE/bitcoin-over-freenet/1/
1266 2011-02-16 08:22:23 <xelister> ok let me paste that for freenet-less ones to some imagebin
1267 2011-02-16 08:22:26 <bk128> MT`AwAy: was that the slashdot?
1268 2011-02-16 08:22:33 <purpleposeidon> xelister: Java, such a pain.
1269 2011-02-16 08:22:42 <xelister> purpleposeidon: portable.. easier secure
1270 2011-02-16 08:22:59 <MT`AwAy> bk128, I guess
1271 2011-02-16 08:23:01 <MT`AwAy> on the wiki
1272 2011-02-16 08:23:04 <MT`AwAy> (not the site itself)
1273 2011-02-16 08:23:12 <genjix> xelister: yeah i do
1274 2011-02-16 08:23:15 <bk128> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/02/10/189246/Online-Only-Currency-BitCoin-Reaches-Dollar-Parity yeah
1275 2011-02-16 08:23:17 <xelister> jgarzik: I would buy overal.. but 1000 BTC  is really actually quite high I think? it used to cost like 700
1276 2011-02-16 08:23:19 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, RSS
1277 2011-02-16 08:23:21 <xelister> well, usd
1278 2011-02-16 08:23:32 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, causes swapping
1279 2011-02-16 08:24:04 <bk128> yeah, I got a sapphire 5870 for 220 btc shipped
1280 2011-02-16 08:24:32 <genjix> yeah why would you pay with your valuable bitcoins a card that's ~$500? :)
1281 2011-02-16 08:24:58 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: yep
1282 2011-02-16 08:25:12 <xelister> http://imagebin.org/138208
1283 2011-02-16 08:25:26 <bk128> 5870's are $240 usd now at most (for new ones)
1284 2011-02-16 08:25:39 <xelister> I have 5970's for 150 USD
1285 2011-02-16 08:25:47 <foucist> xelister: you do?
1286 2011-02-16 08:25:47 <bk128> working?
1287 2011-02-16 08:25:50 <foucist> xelister: for sale?
1288 2011-02-16 08:25:59 * bk128 is skeptical
1289 2011-02-16 08:26:06 <xelister> although from china. And the company page dissapeared. And they sell radeons and wedding dressess. I think it might be a tarp :D :D
1290 2011-02-16 08:26:17 <foucist> heh
1291 2011-02-16 08:26:25 <xelister> its funny because its true story
1292 2011-02-16 08:26:28 <foucist> :P
1293 2011-02-16 08:26:54 <xelister> and ofc everyone wants pay in advance heh
1294 2011-02-16 08:27:19 <jgarzik> <shrug>  a price is a price.  If you want one at 1000 BTC shipped, buy it.  If not, don't :)   But 5970's are becoming harder to find.
1295 2011-02-16 08:27:51 <jgarzik> especially brand new
1296 2011-02-16 08:28:03 <JFK911> you don't want em at brand new prices
1297 2011-02-16 08:28:08 <JFK911> what are they $750 at newegg?
1298 2011-02-16 08:28:24 <bk128> yeah.  I was going to buy them but it's not worth it anymore imho
1299 2011-02-16 08:28:26 <ntosme2> I went with 5570s: cheaper, but it takes more
1300 2011-02-16 08:28:42 <JFK911> ntosme2: really?  BTC per $?
1301 2011-02-16 08:28:44 <foucist> ntosme2: you mean 5870 ?
1302 2011-02-16 08:28:58 <xelister> jgarzik: well yes this is true. Actually, I can not find ANY 5970 at all now
1303 2011-02-16 08:29:06 <xelister> Ati really stoped producing them too soon
1304 2011-02-16 08:29:09 <ntosme2> the Mhash/W is similar
1305 2011-02-16 08:29:13 <JFK911> oh ok
1306 2011-02-16 08:29:19 <bk128> went with 5870's.  $200 but I have to fill out rebates.  and the rebates were 1 per address so I'm shipping them to my parents house too and friend's house
1307 2011-02-16 08:29:28 <bk128> $40 off each card though
1308 2011-02-16 08:29:30 <phantomcircuit> JFK911, only  ones on newegg are ~1k
1309 2011-02-16 08:29:32 <xelister> perhaps they should get some team to work on the not-sucking driver+SDK instead of switching factory assembly lines
1310 2011-02-16 08:29:37 <foucist> ntosme2: 5570 = 60 MHash/s
1311 2011-02-16 08:29:49 <ntosme2> yes
1312 2011-02-16 08:29:57 <foucist> bk128: oh, wow, what a PITA.. rebate-wise
1313 2011-02-16 08:30:00 <ntosme2> but 39W
1314 2011-02-16 08:30:03 <JFK911> you should get 80 if you jack up the clock, ntosme2
1315 2011-02-16 08:30:17 <bk128> foucist: even at $240 each they're not too bad.
1316 2011-02-16 08:30:21 <ntosme2> JFK911: good to know
1317 2011-02-16 08:30:32 <JFK911> Also, it's pretty easy to turn the 5550 into a 5570.  I've seen those for like $25
1318 2011-02-16 08:30:41 <JFK911> And the board is exactly the same
1319 2011-02-16 08:30:51 <xelister> we should petition Ati to  1) reopen 5xxx assemly line  2) write non-shit driver seriously.   Anyone?
1320 2011-02-16 08:30:55 <foucist> bk128: 5870 yes, 5570 no?
1321 2011-02-16 08:30:57 <genjix> anyone know how to use vim to edit hex?
1322 2011-02-16 08:31:02 <ntosme2> JFK911: by unlocking? flashing?
1323 2011-02-16 08:31:11 <JFK911> switching BIOS
1324 2011-02-16 08:31:26 <bk128> we should petition ati to make us a shader only gpu :D
1325 2011-02-16 08:31:38 <ArtForz> I very much doubt that
1326 2011-02-16 08:31:38 <JFK911> I think the cards I saw were asus low profile ones
1327 2011-02-16 08:31:45 <bk128> foucist: they're 5870's.
1328 2011-02-16 08:31:50 <ArtForz> 5xxx is laser locked
1329 2011-02-16 08:32:10 <bk128> what's laser locked?
1330 2011-02-16 08:32:14 <foucist> bk128: right yeah i just meant in terms of having to mail to diff addresses, didn't realize you had to do that for the rebate
1331 2011-02-16 08:32:37 <bk128> this one says one per address. not all rebates are that way though
1332 2011-02-16 08:32:41 <ArtForz> shader groups disabled by physically fusing off part of the chip
1333 2011-02-16 08:32:45 <ArtForz> 5550 has 320 shaders, 5570 has 400
1334 2011-02-16 08:33:04 larsig has joined
1335 2011-02-16 08:33:15 <JFK911> Do you have proof of that?
1336 2011-02-16 08:33:22 <ArtForz> proof of what?
1337 2011-02-16 08:33:36 <genjix> JFK911: it's common
1338 2011-02-16 08:33:40 <JFK911> locked by hardware
1339 2011-02-16 08:33:47 <ArtForz> erm, fucking google it
1340 2011-02-16 08:33:49 <genjix> cheaper hardware is the same sometimes as higher end versions
1341 2011-02-16 08:33:56 <genjix> but they disable certain features
1342 2011-02-16 08:34:02 <ArtForz> you can turn a 5570 into a 5670
1343 2011-02-16 08:34:22 <ArtForz> as the have the same #shaders
1344 2011-02-16 08:34:30 <JFK911> It's not uncommon for the crippling to be less than permanent either.
1345 2011-02-16 08:34:33 <ArtForz> but not 5550 to 5570, 320 vs. 400 shaders
1346 2011-02-16 08:34:50 <ArtForz> JFK911: yes, for example current 6950s CAN be unlocked to all shaders
1347 2011-02-16 08:34:55 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if it would be possibly to use floating point operations...
1348 2011-02-16 08:34:58 <bk128> ArtForz: what can you do to squeeze more out of the 5870's?
1349 2011-02-16 08:35:07 <ArtForz> that made BIG NEWS, because its pretty RARE with GPUs nowadays
1350 2011-02-16 08:35:52 <JFK911> Well, it's impossible to find out with google
1351 2011-02-16 08:35:55 <ArtForz> last time I checked, there is *no* way to unlock shaders on any 5xxx or 68xx
1352 2011-02-16 08:36:06 <ArtForz> so... how do you know then?
1353 2011-02-16 08:36:24 <JFK911> How do you know? :)
1354 2011-02-16 08:36:26 <ArtForz> you fucking claimed it's possible, yet... no one on the whole internet posted about it?
1355 2011-02-16 08:36:27 <JFK911> I don't work at ATI.
1356 2011-02-16 08:36:32 <JFK911> No
1357 2011-02-16 08:36:44 <JFK911> When you search google you get pages of shit results
1358 2011-02-16 08:36:48 <ArtForz> <JFK911> Also, it's pretty easy to turn the 5550 into a 5570.  I've seen those for like $25
1359 2011-02-16 08:36:50 <bk128> ArtForz: decap the IC and fix the metal layer with FIB deposition? :p
1360 2011-02-16 08:36:56 <JFK911> Shit reviews from Shit tech sites that sell Overpriced Shit for ricer-gamer-bois
1361 2011-02-16 08:36:58 <ArtForz> so. proof or STFU
1362 2011-02-16 08:37:16 <JFK911> They load up Google results so its impossible to find any research
1363 2011-02-16 08:37:26 <ArtForz> bk128: thats not exactly "pretty easy", now is it ;)
1364 2011-02-16 08:37:27 <JFK911> I've heard it's not hard
1365 2011-02-16 08:38:09 <foucist> ArtForz: what's the diff between 5570/5670, how do you turn one into the other? flash?
1366 2011-02-16 08:38:17 <ArtForz> oh, so a friend of a friend knows someone who's third cousins sister knows a ATI engineer?
1367 2011-02-16 08:38:28 <bk128> lol
1368 2011-02-16 08:38:39 <JFK911> So does it take any unique composition in any layers to make a fusible link, that you wouldn't need for any other feature?
1369 2011-02-16 08:38:51 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1370 2011-02-16 08:38:56 <JFK911> EEPROM and FLASH cells seem to have had difficulties with integration in the past
1371 2011-02-16 08:39:02 <ArtForz> foucist: same chip, different clocks
1372 2011-02-16 08:39:10 <foucist> ArtForz: so just a clock thing then?
1373 2011-02-16 08:39:13 <ArtForz> yea
1374 2011-02-16 08:39:27 <ArtForz> and 5570s with gddr5 are kinda rare
1375 2011-02-16 08:39:39 <ArtForz> while it's pretty common on 5670s
1376 2011-02-16 08:39:43 <bk128> how are the clocks different?  software or hardware change?  are they external to the gpu?
1377 2011-02-16 08:39:53 <JFK911> You can overclock the card in catalyst
1378 2011-02-16 08:39:58 <ArtForz> you can just overclock with aticonfig/ccc
1379 2011-02-16 08:40:05 <bk128> ah
1380 2011-02-16 08:40:08 <midnightmagic_> ArtForz: Your ire would be much more popcorn if you aimed it at phantomcircuit and made a flow control patch for bitcoind. :) scrollback a few pages.
1381 2011-02-16 08:40:10 <JFK911> It will run fine up to the max clock
1382 2011-02-16 08:40:14 * midnightmagic_ prods random people.
1383 2011-02-16 08:40:25 <ArtForz> midnightmagic: too much chatter, didn't read
1384 2011-02-16 08:40:29 devon_hillard_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1385 2011-02-16 08:40:46 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, oh yeah btw i could take down every single node
1386 2011-02-16 08:40:46 <bk128> ArtForz: do you have to mess with xorg configs to run a linux miner if you do everything over the cli?
1387 2011-02-16 08:40:50 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, neat trick huh?
1388 2011-02-16 08:40:55 <bk128> or do you have to run a desktop environment anyways
1389 2011-02-16 08:40:57 <ArtForz> phantomcircuit: so could I, and?
1390 2011-02-16 08:41:10 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, aw make me feel all bad
1391 2011-02-16 08:41:14 <midnightmagic_> ArtForz: phantom says he made an exploit that kills bitcoind. jgarzik tried to make an insta-patch. phantom is being open with his details.
1392 2011-02-16 08:41:25 <ArtForz> DoSing the client via a direct connection is trivial.
1393 2011-02-16 08:41:33 <purpleposeidon> Specyfication? :P
1394 2011-02-16 08:41:39 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, uh not what im talking about
1395 2011-02-16 08:41:46 <phantomcircuit> well maybe it is
1396 2011-02-16 08:41:48 <phantomcircuit> im tired
1397 2011-02-16 08:41:55 <ArtForz> lemme guess, memory exhaustion?
1398 2011-02-16 08:41:58 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, use up all available ram
1399 2011-02-16 08:42:01 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1400 2011-02-16 08:42:09 <ArtForz> yeah, found that one like 3 months ago
1401 2011-02-16 08:42:15 <phantomcircuit> can be trivially converted into a cpu exhaustion attack also
1402 2011-02-16 08:42:22 <ArtForz> yep
1403 2011-02-16 08:43:12 <midnightmagic_> then these are the mods you hinted at; but question: what's the gain in keeping the only bitcoind that can survive those attacks?
1404 2011-02-16 08:43:18 <midnightmagic_> ah..  you're not the only one running it.
1405 2011-02-16 08:43:30 <midnightmagic_> well that's hardly fair now is it? :)
1406 2011-02-16 08:43:52 puddinpop has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1407 2011-02-16 08:44:05 <ArtForz> problem is, main devs disagree with my fix as it might break transaction forwarding under DoS conditions
1408 2011-02-16 08:44:11 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, well to start with you could use it to quickly gain >50% of cpu time
1409 2011-02-16 08:44:47 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: hrm.. i think that would only work if difficult came back down while i had it.
1410 2011-02-16 08:44:59 <midnightmagic_> that would take a while.
1411 2011-02-16 08:45:05 <phantomcircuit> why?
1412 2011-02-16 08:45:29 <phantomcircuit> if you're generating valid blocks and nobody else is you're suppressing inflationary tendencies while printing money
1413 2011-02-16 08:45:32 <ArtForz> gotta go, bbl
1414 2011-02-16 08:45:36 <phantomcircuit> you've effectively crowned yourself FED
1415 2011-02-16 08:45:40 <midnightmagic_> bye art.
1416 2011-02-16 08:46:13 <midnightmagic_> when i say "I" I mean me personally. i don't have enough mining power to overrun the bigger miners, who presumably would then be forking their own independent chains which would overrun mine when the network came back together.
1417 2011-02-16 08:46:45 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1418 2011-02-16 08:46:45 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, you'd simply have to be larger than any single miner
1419 2011-02-16 08:47:13 <midnightmagic_> phantomcircuit: or pool. it's hard to be stronger than art or slush unless you're determined.
1420 2011-02-16 08:47:22 <phantomcircuit> which while potentially difficult (lol ArtForz) is significantly easier than gaining > 50% of cpu time under normal circumstances
1421 2011-02-16 08:47:40 mbarkhau has joined
1422 2011-02-16 08:47:48 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, hard, but not financially restricting
1423 2011-02-16 08:47:51 <da2ce7> +0.5GHash/s today :)
1424 2011-02-16 08:47:54 <midnightmagic_> you would have to kill all connections. and what about the people running in i2p?
1425 2011-02-16 08:48:12 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic_, attack would disable them as well
1426 2011-02-16 08:48:23 <midnightmagic_> those guys run block-passing proxies, you can't even reach those guys.
1427 2011-02-16 08:48:57 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1428 2011-02-16 08:48:59 <phantomcircuit> as in they're not connected to the network in anyway?
1429 2011-02-16 08:49:10 <Syke> lots of miners are behind firewalls that won't accept any connections
1430 2011-02-16 08:49:14 <midnightmagic_> some, not directly.
1431 2011-02-16 08:49:48 <midnightmagic_> and what syke said. only outgoing, so you'd have to modify it to attack incoming people, and somehow disconnect their existing 8 connections to make them eventually cycle around to you.
1432 2011-02-16 08:49:51 <phantomcircuit> oh
1433 2011-02-16 08:49:55 <phantomcircuit> it's irrelevant
1434 2011-02-16 08:50:31 <phantomcircuit> you'd be disabling the only remotely connectable nodes which would partition the network into subnetworks consisting of only local peers
1435 2011-02-16 08:51:45 <midnightmagic_> hrm..
1436 2011-02-16 08:52:38 <midnightmagic_> i think you should do it. i hope you're on tor or using a hacked dsl right now. :)
1437 2011-02-16 08:53:50 <lfm> people with incoming enabled typiclly have more then 8 connects
1438 2011-02-16 08:53:57 devon_hillard has joined
1439 2011-02-16 08:54:56 <midnightmagic_> lfm: syke mentioned firewalled people, I was talking about people incoming from the perspective of his hacked bitcoind
1440 2011-02-16 08:55:49 <midnightmagic_> lfm: firewalled people have by default a max of 8 outgoing connections active. well..  mine seemed to, so i guess that's an assumption on my part..
1441 2011-02-16 08:55:57 <phantomcircuit> lfm, huh?
1442 2011-02-16 08:56:27 <lfm> midnightmagic_ ya 8 is the default
1443 2011-02-16 08:56:53 <phantomcircuit> what's the difference?
1444 2011-02-16 08:57:04 <phantomcircuit> there wouldn't be anybody to connect outbound to
1445 2011-02-16 08:57:07 devon_hillard_ has joined
1446 2011-02-16 08:57:21 <midnightmagic_> except art. :)
1447 2011-02-16 08:57:36 <midnightmagic_> i wonder if he's become a hub for all the firewalled people then.
1448 2011-02-16 08:57:49 devon_hillard_ has quit (Client Quit)
1449 2011-02-16 08:57:56 <midnightmagic_> auto-island..
1450 2011-02-16 08:58:12 <phantomcircuit> lol yeah he'd probably have full control of the network
1451 2011-02-16 08:58:12 <phantomcircuit> rofl
1452 2011-02-16 08:59:13 <midnightmagic_> you've been spending a lot of time monkeying around with this. are you sure you don't have something more productive to do with your time?
1453 2011-02-16 08:59:41 <midnightmagic_> maybe classes or a wife or something? :)
1454 2011-02-16 08:59:49 <midnightmagic_> ;)
1455 2011-02-16 08:59:50 <phantomcircuit> yes i do
1456 2011-02-16 09:00:12 <phantomcircuit> procrastination
1457 2011-02-16 09:00:19 devon_hillard_ has joined
1458 2011-02-16 09:00:37 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1459 2011-02-16 09:00:48 devon_hillard_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1460 2011-02-16 09:01:36 devon_hillard has joined
1461 2011-02-16 09:02:29 <midnightmagic_> kicking over sandcastles maybe..
1462 2011-02-16 09:03:47 <midnightmagic_> yelling at a bag lady..
1463 2011-02-16 09:04:20 <midnightmagic_> hey you ever used to play quake? the original?
1464 2011-02-16 09:04:43 <phantomcircuit> lol yes
1465 2011-02-16 09:04:56 <midnightmagic_> runequake.. my fave.
1466 2011-02-16 09:05:24 <midnightmagic_> god people used to get angry at me for abusing the hook
1467 2011-02-16 09:07:19 <midnightmagic_> Sky_Pinata was my nick.
1468 2011-02-16 09:07:23 RazielZ has joined
1469 2011-02-16 09:09:09 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1470 2011-02-16 09:26:44 dirtyfilthy has joined
1471 2011-02-16 09:34:52 soultcer has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1472 2011-02-16 09:35:06 soultcer has joined
1473 2011-02-16 09:43:17 satamusic has joined
1474 2011-02-16 09:43:17 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
1475 2011-02-16 09:43:17 satamusic has joined
1476 2011-02-16 09:45:49 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1477 2011-02-16 09:55:47 satamusic_ has joined
1478 2011-02-16 09:59:47 queria has joined
1479 2011-02-16 10:00:35 satamusic__ has joined
1480 2011-02-16 10:01:04 <queria> hi
1481 2011-02-16 10:01:51 devon_hillard_ has joined
1482 2011-02-16 10:01:53 <queria> what's the difference between bitcoind getaccountaddress and getnewaddress?
1483 2011-02-16 10:02:14 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1484 2011-02-16 10:02:42 devon_hillard has quit (Disconnected by services)
1485 2011-02-16 10:02:52 devon_hillard_ has quit (Client Quit)
1486 2011-02-16 10:02:55 <queria> after using getaccountaddress first and getnewaddress after that i ended with two different accounts with same label
1487 2011-02-16 10:03:17 devon_hillard has joined
1488 2011-02-16 10:03:17 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
1489 2011-02-16 10:03:17 devon_hillard has joined
1490 2011-02-16 10:03:58 <queria> so, why getaccountaddress created account instead of "no account found" message ... or how can i change lables or remove unused accounts?
1491 2011-02-16 10:05:07 <queria> is the only solution for me to wipeout bitcoind from my pc (or all in /var/lib/bitcoin)?
1492 2011-02-16 10:07:09 satamusic__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1493 2011-02-16 10:07:49 ArtForzZz has joined
1494 2011-02-16 10:10:24 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1495 2011-02-16 10:11:30 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1496 2011-02-16 10:12:28 davux has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1497 2011-02-16 10:13:08 altamic has joined
1498 2011-02-16 10:16:39 Phoebus has joined
1499 2011-02-16 10:22:39 <genjix> queria: accounts contain several addresses
1500 2011-02-16 10:22:47 <genjix> getnewaddress creates a new address
1501 2011-02-16 10:22:56 <genjix> getaccountaddress gets an existing one
1502 2011-02-16 10:23:10 <queria> ok ok
1503 2011-02-16 10:23:27 <queria> but after i installed bitcoind for first time
1504 2011-02-16 10:23:53 <queria> i after start first looked around getinfo and so ...
1505 2011-02-16 10:24:06 <queria> and tried "getaccountaddress queria"
1506 2011-02-16 10:24:15 <queria> and ... it printed me an address ...
1507 2011-02-16 10:25:07 <queria> after i later noticed there is an getnewaddres ... i tried it (say hey, i want my own address - didn know i already has two - "Your.." and "queria" from getaccadr)
1508 2011-02-16 10:25:39 <queria> then i looked at them using listreceivedbyaddress 0 true
1509 2011-02-16 10:26:20 <queria> and i was very confused that i see three accounts/addreses ...
1510 2011-02-16 10:27:36 mtve has joined
1511 2011-02-16 10:28:08 <Validus> lol when my current blocks confirm ill have a balance of .99
1512 2011-02-16 10:28:47 <queria> now my list seems like this http://pastebin.com/54YDnsnz, but i don't like to have too much accs here (atm)
1513 2011-02-16 10:30:11 rli has joined
1514 2011-02-16 10:30:29 <UukGoblin> what's the best driver (catalyst) version to use with sdk 2.1?
1515 2011-02-16 10:30:40 <Validus> every transaction generates a new address, so it looks like its thinking it recieved a transaction or you have it set on server and something like that
1516 2011-02-16 10:30:42 <molecular> Validus, I was at that point once, took me weeks
1517 2011-02-16 10:31:05 <Validus> i ran overdrive and gettin 73 - 75-- instead of 7000 - 7200
1518 2011-02-16 10:31:13 <Validus> but i joined pooled. i know thats not a lot
1519 2011-02-16 10:31:26 <Validus> i plan on donating most of my coins to the eff and saving a little for me
1520 2011-02-16 10:31:43 <Validus> thinking like 70/30
1521 2011-02-16 10:32:56 <Validus> i am getting 2 grand to build a new system but the 40+ hrs i put into getting hardware accelleration to work with ati cards on my p4 that was nightmarish on drivers etc and to my knowledge the mplayer that uses vaapi wasnt released till dec 2010 so that made me have a lil personall vendetta
1522 2011-02-16 10:33:34 * molecular is wondering why wikileaks hasn't figured out bitcoins might be helpfull to receive donations
1523 2011-02-16 10:33:48 <Validus> probably with so much going on
1524 2011-02-16 10:34:06 <Validus> but that is a good point/idea
1525 2011-02-16 10:34:14 <Validus> why dont you contact them?
1526 2011-02-16 10:35:08 Phoebus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1527 2011-02-16 10:35:30 <molecular> I might drop them a mail, but I doubt it will be read soonish... they must still be drowning in stuff. don't know any insiders
1528 2011-02-16 10:36:07 <Validus> im curiuos how hard it would be to implement beside the balance the current rate from a website and have it print out in the currency of your choice
1529 2011-02-16 10:36:27 <Validus> so it would say your balance and what your amount would be in the currency you pick next to it givin the market rate
1530 2011-02-16 10:38:05 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, do you think the CPU consumption issue with sdk 2.2+ could be solved by using the Stream API instead of OpenCL? Is there even such a thing as a Stream API?
1531 2011-02-16 10:38:06 <molecular> Validus, one can quite easily get the current rate from mtgox via it's api
1532 2011-02-16 10:38:21 <Validus> ya but what if you only have bitcoin open
1533 2011-02-16 10:38:31 <Validus> still would be a neat lil feature
1534 2011-02-16 10:38:56 <Validus> you could see right there without opening a browser etc or if your running console only im sure there would be a way to print it out
1535 2011-02-16 10:40:38 <molecular> you don't need to have a browser open in order to get the rate from mtgox. could put a http-request into bitcoin... but I doubt people would like something like that in the client
1536 2011-02-16 10:41:05 <molecular> Validus, what do you mean by "way to print it out"?
1537 2011-02-16 10:41:24 <Validus> be verbose
1538 2011-02-16 10:41:38 <Validus> as im sure there is console clients that just verbose what you have in terms of bitcoin
1539 2011-02-16 10:42:42 <molecular> well, you could make a little script that polls the exchange-rate and uses getbalance on your bitcoin(d), multiply that and print it, no?
1540 2011-02-16 10:44:38 <Validus> ya for console thatd be fine or a lil simple extra program. i think it would be conveneient next to the balance
1541 2011-02-16 10:44:49 queria has left ()
1542 2011-02-16 10:45:33 <molecular> Validus, yeah well, but it doesn't really belong there. Bitcoin is not about speculation, the goal is to build an economy. People should eventually "think in bitcoin", not convert to $ all the time
1543 2011-02-16 10:45:50 <Validus> how does it not belong here as it could be a feature added into thet client
1544 2011-02-16 10:46:25 slush has joined
1545 2011-02-16 10:46:26 <molecular> because the client is about keeping a bitcoin wallet, beting part of the network and making transactions
1546 2011-02-16 10:46:48 <molecular> it has nothing to do with $ per se, just because you can trade btc for usd on some trading place
1547 2011-02-16 10:47:01 <molecular> *being, not beting
1548 2011-02-16 10:47:05 <Validus> well btc's value is baed off the market
1549 2011-02-16 10:47:17 <Validus> so it does hold relevance espically if you have a service that fluctuates
1550 2011-02-16 10:47:31 <molecular> currently it's very much the case
1551 2011-02-16 10:48:16 <molecular> but I'm guessing at some point in the (distant) future, btc prices will be stabler and the USD-Value on websites will have to be adjusted constantly according to the current rate ;)
1552 2011-02-16 10:51:27 <UukGoblin> they'll never be stable because USD keeps inflating and BTC inflation is special/constant
1553 2011-02-16 10:51:45 <UukGoblin> oh right
1554 2011-02-16 10:51:52 <UukGoblin> sorry didn't read till the end ;-]
1555 2011-02-16 10:52:08 <molecular> :)
1556 2011-02-16 10:52:59 * UukGoblin waits for zimbabwe to incorporate bitcoins
1557 2011-02-16 10:53:11 <nathan7> ..oh god
1558 2011-02-16 10:53:20 <nathan7> also, UukGoblin, is gribble broken?
1559 2011-02-16 10:54:36 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
1560 2011-02-16 10:54:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108432 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 431 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 3 hours, 43 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34716.93740300
1561 2011-02-16 10:54:42 <UukGoblin> looks like it works
1562 2011-02-16 10:54:55 <UukGoblin> (it's not my bot btw)
1563 2011-02-16 10:56:19 <nathan7> :o
1564 2011-02-16 10:56:25 nathan7 has left ()
1565 2011-02-16 10:56:25 nathan7 has joined
1566 2011-02-16 10:56:30 <nathan7> Yep, broken
1567 2011-02-16 10:56:32 <nathan7> D:
1568 2011-02-16 10:56:37 <nathan7> ohshi
1569 2011-02-16 10:57:13 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, also, is that CPU usage bug filed with ATI somewhere / mentioned on AMD forums?
1570 2011-02-16 10:57:25 <UukGoblin> nathan7, !!! ;-P
1571 2011-02-16 10:57:44 <nathan7> :o
1572 2011-02-16 10:58:03 <nathan7> I await the day where I can pay for bitcoins for pizzas
1573 2011-02-16 10:58:04 <genjix> http://blip.tv/file/4771178
1574 2011-02-16 10:58:08 <genjix> gavin = hero
1575 2011-02-16 10:58:09 <nathan7> erm
1576 2011-02-16 10:58:13 <nathan7> pay for pizzas with bitcoin
1577 2011-02-16 10:58:14 <nathan7> s
1578 2011-02-16 10:58:34 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1579 2011-02-16 11:00:29 <nathan7> OMG, I have 0.00271302 BTC
1580 2011-02-16 11:01:07 <molecular> hm, not enough for pizza, yet
1581 2011-02-16 11:01:48 <UukGoblin> nathan7, wanna buy some more? :-]
1582 2011-02-16 11:02:03 <nathan7> I should have saved the 750 bitcoins I got from niekie
1583 2011-02-16 11:03:30 <molecular> should have, could have, would have
1584 2011-02-16 11:04:01 we6jbo has joined
1585 2011-02-16 11:04:52 davout has joined
1586 2011-02-16 11:04:58 <UukGoblin> hm, I got 750 BTC from niekie early on as well ;-]
1587 2011-02-16 11:05:03 * nathan7 sells molecular's existential crisis on bitpond
1588 2011-02-16 11:05:10 <nathan7> UukGoblin: well, 500 from him
1589 2011-02-16 11:05:36 we6jbo has quit (Client Quit)
1590 2011-02-16 11:05:49 mbarkhau has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1591 2011-02-16 11:06:12 <UukGoblin> is it true satoshi has a million?
1592 2011-02-16 11:07:03 <nathan7> and I genned 250 myself
1593 2011-02-16 11:07:10 <nathan7> and I exchanged it for $47
1594 2011-02-16 11:07:44 <nathan7> food!
1595 2011-02-16 11:07:45 <nathan7> lunch!
1596 2011-02-16 11:07:46 <nathan7> :D
1597 2011-02-16 11:07:58 <sipa> UukGoblin: maybe
1598 2011-02-16 11:08:18 <sipa> which is the answer to any possible question asked involving satoshi
1599 2011-02-16 11:08:47 <UukGoblin> even "what is the most common word used by satoshi"?
1600 2011-02-16 11:08:49 echelon has joined
1601 2011-02-16 11:09:14 <UukGoblin> or "has satoshi had sex with a goat?"? :-]
1602 2011-02-16 11:09:51 <echelon> O_o
1603 2011-02-16 11:10:31 <UukGoblin> hi supercomputer
1604 2011-02-16 11:10:34 <sipa> correction
1605 2011-02-16 11:10:39 <sipa> which is the answer to any possible yes-no question asked involving satoshi
1606 2011-02-16 11:11:07 <UukGoblin> 'maybe' is not an answer to a yes-no question ;-)
1607 2011-02-16 11:11:45 mtgox has joined
1608 2011-02-16 11:11:47 <sipa> it is, in english used by not too mathematically inclined people ;)
1609 2011-02-16 11:12:08 <sipa> or those believing in fuzzy logic :D
1610 2011-02-16 11:12:15 <UukGoblin> hahah
1611 2011-02-16 11:12:26 * UukGoblin just imagined a Church Of The Fuzzy Logic
1612 2011-02-16 11:13:05 <sipa> "Is there life after death?" - "Maybe"
1613 2011-02-16 11:14:09 <UukGoblin> "Is this sentence false?"
1614 2011-02-16 11:14:37 <UukGoblin> hrm.
1615 2011-02-16 11:14:47 * UukGoblin finds it hard to find a good question with that answer
1616 2011-02-16 11:15:01 <sipa> "Maybe"
1617 2011-02-16 11:15:15 <genjix> haha! great answer to that question
1618 2011-02-16 11:15:23 <genjix> is this sentence false? maybe.
1619 2011-02-16 11:15:26 <genjix> solved.
1620 2011-02-16 11:17:33 albertid has joined
1621 2011-02-16 11:18:27 <UukGoblin> Godel would be proud
1622 2011-02-16 11:22:14 <molecular> ;;seen chaord
1623 2011-02-16 11:22:15 <gribble> chaord was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 1 day, 3 hours, 21 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <chaord> so...no takers from the chatroom directly? ;)
1624 2011-02-16 11:22:27 <molecular> damn, where is the guy
1625 2011-02-16 11:22:41 <UukGoblin> how many bitcoins does he owe you? ;-]
1626 2011-02-16 11:23:00 <molecular> none, why are you asking? is he known for not paying?
1627 2011-02-16 11:23:08 <genjix> ;;seen genjix
1628 2011-02-16 11:23:09 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 minutes and 42 seconds ago: <genjix> solved.
1629 2011-02-16 11:23:18 <genjix> ;;seen genjix
1630 2011-02-16 11:23:19 <gribble> genjix was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 9 seconds ago: <genjix> ;;seen genjix
1631 2011-02-16 11:23:47 <UukGoblin> molecular, nah, just kidding ;-]
1632 2011-02-16 11:23:50 <molecular> he put up bounty for doing a java lib that seems simple enough to do
1633 2011-02-16 11:23:51 <molecular> ;)
1634 2011-02-16 11:23:53 <genjix> ;;seen caedes
1635 2011-02-16 11:23:54 <gribble> I have not seen caedes.
1636 2011-02-16 11:23:58 <molecular> I should require down payment ;)
1637 2011-02-16 11:24:01 <genjix> ;;seen satoshi
1638 2011-02-16 11:24:02 <gribble> I have not seen satoshi.
1639 2011-02-16 11:24:20 <molecular> satoshi might use a different name here
1640 2011-02-16 11:24:21 <UukGoblin> ;;seen god
1641 2011-02-16 11:24:21 <gribble> I have not seen god.
1642 2011-02-16 11:24:25 <molecular> lol
1643 2011-02-16 11:24:34 <molecular> ;;seen devil
1644 2011-02-16 11:24:35 <gribble> I have not seen devil.
1645 2011-02-16 11:24:37 <genjix> haha
1646 2011-02-16 11:24:48 <genjix> ;;seen the face of evil
1647 2011-02-16 11:24:49 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself.
1648 2011-02-16 11:24:57 <genjix> ;;seen the-face-of-evil
1649 2011-02-16 11:24:57 <gribble> I have not seen the-face-of-evil.
1650 2011-02-16 11:25:04 <genjix> trolol
1651 2011-02-16 11:25:06 <UukGoblin> ;;seen my bitcoins?
1652 2011-02-16 11:25:07 <molecular> ;;seen "genjix naked"
1653 2011-02-16 11:25:07 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself.
1654 2011-02-16 11:25:08 <gribble> Error: 'genjix naked' is not a valid nick.
1655 2011-02-16 11:25:13 <molecular> damn
1656 2011-02-16 11:25:19 <UukGoblin> ;;seen my_bitcoins
1657 2011-02-16 11:25:19 <gribble> I have not seen my_bitcoins.
1658 2011-02-16 11:25:25 <genjix> jaja
1659 2011-02-16 11:25:30 <genjix> ;;seen love
1660 2011-02-16 11:25:30 <gribble> I have not seen love.
1661 2011-02-16 11:25:48 <molecular> ;;seen the_three_rules_for_robots
1662 2011-02-16 11:25:49 <gribble> Error: 'the_three_rules_for_robots' is not a valid nick.  That nick is too long for this server.
1663 2011-02-16 11:25:54 <molecular> goddamnit
1664 2011-02-16 11:26:52 <genjix> ;;my_wife_in_weeks
1665 2011-02-16 11:26:53 <sipa> ;;seen much
1666 2011-02-16 11:26:53 <gribble> Error: "my_wife_in_weeks" is not a valid command.
1667 2011-02-16 11:26:55 <gribble> I have not seen much.
1668 2011-02-16 11:26:59 <genjix> ;;seen my_wife_in_weeks
1669 2011-02-16 11:26:59 <gribble> I have not seen my_wife_in_weeks.
1670 2011-02-16 11:27:07 <UukGoblin> ;;seen gribble
1671 2011-02-16 11:27:07 <gribble> I have not seen gribble.
1672 2011-02-16 11:27:13 <UukGoblin> blind idiot ;-]
1673 2011-02-16 11:27:18 * UukGoblin hands him a mirror
1674 2011-02-16 11:27:22 <molecular> you're wife's with me, gribble
1675 2011-02-16 11:27:26 <genjix> ;;seen reiser
1676 2011-02-16 11:27:27 <gribble> I have not seen reiser.
1677 2011-02-16 11:27:29 <UukGoblin> ;;seen ;;seen
1678 2011-02-16 11:27:30 <gribble> Error: ';;seen' is not a valid nick.
1679 2011-02-16 11:27:56 <genjix> ;;seen my_dildo
1680 2011-02-16 11:27:57 <gribble> I have not seen my_dildo.
1681 2011-02-16 11:29:30 Letharion has joined
1682 2011-02-16 11:31:33 lzd_hz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1683 2011-02-16 11:32:10 devon_hillard has joined
1684 2011-02-16 11:32:10 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
1685 2011-02-16 11:32:10 devon_hillard has joined
1686 2011-02-16 11:35:39 RBecker is now known as Detached!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|RBecker
1687 2011-02-16 11:36:15 <slush> ;;seen "my dildo"
1688 2011-02-16 11:36:15 <gribble> Error: 'my dildo' is not a valid nick.
1689 2011-02-16 11:36:34 mbarkhau has joined
1690 2011-02-16 11:36:42 <slush> ;;bc,stats
1691 2011-02-16 11:36:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108440 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 423 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 2 hours, 31 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34778.50372085
1692 2011-02-16 11:36:45 <Keefe> ;;seen myself_in_a_mirror
1693 2011-02-16 11:36:46 <gribble> Error: 'myself_in_a_mirror' is not a valid nick.  That nick is too long for this server.
1694 2011-02-16 11:36:47 <andrew12> ;;seen "my eyes"
1695 2011-02-16 11:36:47 <gribble> Error: 'my eyes' is not a valid nick.
1696 2011-02-16 11:37:12 <Keefe> ;;seen myself_in_mirror
1697 2011-02-16 11:37:12 <gribble> I have not seen myself_in_mirror.
1698 2011-02-16 11:37:21 <andrew12> hmm
1699 2011-02-16 11:37:31 <andrew12> it might be interesting to graph the difficulty estimate
1700 2011-02-16 11:37:41 <andrew12> </random thoughts from andrew>
1701 2011-02-16 11:37:44 <lfm> you all know you can play with gribble in private /msg too? no need to spam the channel with this junk?
1702 2011-02-16 11:37:58 <andrew12> lfm: its more fun to flood the channel
1703 2011-02-16 11:38:16 <UukGoblin> they're all voyeurs
1704 2011-02-16 11:38:28 <andrew12> wat
1705 2011-02-16 11:39:23 <Keefe> just graph the speed of block generation
1706 2011-02-16 11:40:12 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png
1707 2011-02-16 11:40:40 <UukGoblin> if you have block timestamps as input, that's gonna be the first derivative of... what exactly? ;-P
1708 2011-02-16 11:40:40 <Keefe> nice
1709 2011-02-16 11:40:43 * UukGoblin is poor at maths
1710 2011-02-16 11:41:16 <slush> any estimation when the network touch 1Thash/s? :)
1711 2011-02-16 11:41:20 <UukGoblin> oh, so we started accelerating again
1712 2011-02-16 11:41:46 <UukGoblin> slush, around april? :-]
1713 2011-02-16 11:41:47 <sipa> yes, after slashdotting :)
1714 2011-02-16 11:42:03 <UukGoblin> /another/ slashdotting?
1715 2011-02-16 11:42:19 <sipa> btw, http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth.png
1716 2011-02-16 11:42:35 <slush> people should stop with slashdotting
1717 2011-02-16 11:42:48 <slush> or wait until we generate few more bitcoins :)
1718 2011-02-16 11:42:54 <UukGoblin> sipa, ah, that's nice.
1719 2011-02-16 11:43:04 <UukGoblin> sipa, second derivative of that something
1720 2011-02-16 11:43:12 <sipa> actually, no
1721 2011-02-16 11:44:29 <sipa> it's the growth rate measured by fitting an exponential distribution with exponentially increasing rate through the block generation times, after windowing with an exponential window :)
1722 2011-02-16 11:45:05 <andrew12> more pretty graphs please!
1723 2011-02-16 11:45:06 <UukGoblin> hm
1724 2011-02-16 11:45:30 <UukGoblin> well, first derivative of growth still, I guess...
1725 2011-02-16 11:45:36 <UukGoblin> but how do you measure that growth..?
1726 2011-02-16 11:45:40 <sipa> not even that
1727 2011-02-16 11:46:15 <genjix> well it's not strictly an exponential function
1728 2011-02-16 11:46:22 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1729 2011-02-16 11:46:27 <UukGoblin> I guess 'number of blocks per 10 minutes' is a good starting point...
1730 2011-02-16 11:46:31 <sipa> no, it is fitting an exponential function
1731 2011-02-16 11:46:31 <genjix> that's an approximate. it's actually a step function.
1732 2011-02-16 11:46:55 <sipa> UukGoblin: look at it this way
1733 2011-02-16 11:47:13 <sipa> assume that the generation rate is given by A*exp(B*t) (with t=time)
1734 2011-02-16 11:47:18 <andrew12> i'll tell you what, it's not a quadratic function. :p
1735 2011-02-16 11:47:31 echelon has joined
1736 2011-02-16 11:47:32 <UukGoblin> A? B? exp?
1737 2011-02-16 11:47:43 <sipa> A and B are unknwon parameters
1738 2011-02-16 11:47:43 <genjix> so the derivative is a line function changing according to a power series
1739 2011-02-16 11:47:46 <andrew12> exp is the exponent function
1740 2011-02-16 11:47:47 <genjix> *linear
1741 2011-02-16 11:47:49 <sipa> exp is the exponential function
1742 2011-02-16 11:47:50 lfm_ has joined
1743 2011-02-16 11:47:56 <sipa> now ask yourself which A and B are most likely for giving you the block generation times you observed
1744 2011-02-16 11:47:56 <andrew12> exponential even
1745 2011-02-16 11:47:57 <UukGoblin> as in e^x?
1746 2011-02-16 11:47:59 <sipa> yes
1747 2011-02-16 11:48:02 <sipa> in a given window
1748 2011-02-16 11:48:11 <sipa> you can actually calculate this
1749 2011-02-16 11:48:16 rli has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1750 2011-02-16 11:48:28 <sipa> and the result is a very simple formula if you use an exponential window
1751 2011-02-16 11:49:09 <UukGoblin> I don't understand why you start off with an exponential function
1752 2011-02-16 11:49:10 <sipa> i've written some things down here, but it's very brief: http://sipa.be/static/bitcoin/estim_exp_math.txt
1753 2011-02-16 11:49:15 lzd_hz has joined
1754 2011-02-16 11:49:17 <sipa> that's the assumption
1755 2011-02-16 11:49:46 <sipa> if you say "the generation rate increases X % every N days", that's an exponentially increasing rate
1756 2011-02-16 11:50:10 <UukGoblin> but your raw data is "the generation rate is X"
1757 2011-02-16 11:50:14 <sipa> no
1758 2011-02-16 11:50:18 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1759 2011-02-16 11:50:20 <UukGoblin> you assume the increase
1760 2011-02-16 11:50:29 <sipa> the raw data is 'there are generations at times t1 t2 t3"
1761 2011-02-16 11:50:32 lfm_ is now known as lfm
1762 2011-02-16 11:50:35 <UukGoblin> yes
1763 2011-02-16 11:50:45 <sipa> the rate is unknown and not observable
1764 2011-02-16 11:50:55 <UukGoblin> so my first step would be to convert "generations at times" into something like "generation rate"
1765 2011-02-16 11:50:55 <sipa> since it's a probabilistic process
1766 2011-02-16 11:51:01 <sipa> that's what i'm doing
1767 2011-02-16 11:51:03 <UukGoblin> ok
1768 2011-02-16 11:51:07 <sipa> by fitting a function
1769 2011-02-16 11:51:18 <sipa> but i'm already going one step further
1770 2011-02-16 11:51:18 <UukGoblin> hrm.
1771 2011-02-16 11:51:21 <genjix> doesn't the generation rate decrease?
1772 2011-02-16 11:51:32 <sipa> and don't assume the generation rate is constant
1773 2011-02-16 11:51:35 <sipa> genjix: sometimes
1774 2011-02-16 11:51:59 <UukGoblin> when exactly was 0.3.10 released?
1775 2011-02-16 11:52:06 rli has joined
1776 2011-02-16 11:52:21 <genjix> sorry if i'm wrong before, i thought you was talking about the growth of coins (which is a step function and the rate is a decreasing power series which exp functions fit approximately)
1777 2011-02-16 11:52:38 <sipa> oh, no
1778 2011-02-16 11:52:47 <UukGoblin> anyway hrm.
1779 2011-02-16 11:53:15 <UukGoblin> I don't get it :-(
1780 2011-02-16 11:53:32 * UukGoblin did some "normal curve" fitting at maths, that's all
1781 2011-02-16 11:53:40 <sipa> UukGoblin: i'll explain it differently
1782 2011-02-16 11:53:40 <genjix> so by generation you mean the amount of coins being created for this difficulty which is proportional to the gigahashes being performed?
1783 2011-02-16 11:53:46 <lfm> from the tar file of 0.3.10:  10479264 2010-08-14 18:01 bitcoin-0.3.10/bin/64/bitcoin
1784 2011-02-16 11:53:47 FreeMoney has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1785 2011-02-16 11:53:51 <sipa> genjix: actually i'm plotting the hashing speed
1786 2011-02-16 11:53:52 <UukGoblin> but I kinda treated it as mostly guesswork, and the java app was doing it all for me
1787 2011-02-16 11:54:09 <sipa> but that is related to the generation rate by the difficulty
1788 2011-02-16 11:54:14 ducki2p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1789 2011-02-16 11:54:15 <UukGoblin> lfm, thanks
1790 2011-02-16 11:54:17 <genjix> ok
1791 2011-02-16 11:54:39 <UukGoblin> sipa, so actually starting the graph at around july would be awesome, it would show the decrease in rate when the bug happened
1792 2011-02-16 11:54:57 <sipa> tell me at what block number to start the graph
1793 2011-02-16 11:55:02 <UukGoblin> 1? :-)
1794 2011-02-16 11:55:07 <genjix> 0
1795 2011-02-16 11:55:22 <UukGoblin> -42
1796 2011-02-16 11:55:41 <lfm> also the first slashdot effect was mid july
1797 2011-02-16 11:56:12 <lfm> start at 50000?
1798 2011-02-16 11:56:16 <sipa> done
1799 2011-02-16 11:56:38 <UukGoblin> sipa, awesome! thanks :-]
1800 2011-02-16 11:57:27 <UukGoblin> w00t the jump in july/august was insane
1801 2011-02-16 11:57:34 rli has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1802 2011-02-16 11:57:44 <sipa> *10 in a few days
1803 2011-02-16 11:58:19 <UukGoblin> and the drop related to the bug bloody minuscule
1804 2011-02-16 11:58:28 akem_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1805 2011-02-16 11:58:34 <UukGoblin> if at all
1806 2011-02-16 11:58:38 <sipa> when was the bug?
1807 2011-02-16 11:58:50 <UukGoblin> 2010-08-14
1808 2011-02-16 11:58:51 akem has joined
1809 2011-02-16 11:58:51 akem has quit (Changing host)
1810 2011-02-16 11:58:51 akem has joined
1811 2011-02-16 11:59:10 <lfm> there is an old graph I did at http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/hashes.png
1812 2011-02-16 11:59:28 <lfm> starts at block 0
1813 2011-02-16 11:59:34 <andrew12> how about one with the block count on the x axis?
1814 2011-02-16 12:00:05 <UukGoblin> sipa, ok, so back to explanation, if you can be arsed... :-] why not just figure out number of blocks generated in a given time window (i.e. 10 minutes, 1 hour, etc)?
1815 2011-02-16 12:00:19 <UukGoblin> and use that as data?
1816 2011-02-16 12:00:27 <sipa> that will give you a nice average of generation speed during that window
1817 2011-02-16 12:00:44 <sipa> but you would need to make the window quite wide if you want a smooth line
1818 2011-02-16 12:00:52 <UukGoblin> sure
1819 2011-02-16 12:00:57 <sipa> a few days wide, actually
1820 2011-02-16 12:01:17 <sipa> and during a few days time, the generation rate actually goes up already significantly (sometimes)
1821 2011-02-16 12:01:29 <lfm> the line would never be smooth due to random variation
1822 2011-02-16 12:01:36 <sipa> so you wouldn't have a nice estimate for the real speed at a particular point in time
1823 2011-02-16 12:01:40 <UukGoblin> hm
1824 2011-02-16 12:01:43 <sipa> it'd always be somewhat outdated
1825 2011-02-16 12:01:45 rli has joined
1826 2011-02-16 12:02:16 <andrew12> lfm: more averaging you do, smoothe it'll be
1827 2011-02-16 12:02:22 <UukGoblin> sipa, at day 3, you could make the data average from days 0-6, make it a data point, then make a point at day 4, use data from 1-7, etc...
1828 2011-02-16 12:02:29 <sipa> you could
1829 2011-02-16 12:02:34 <sipa> you'd get something similar
1830 2011-02-16 12:02:37 <UukGoblin> well but agreed, it would be kinda outdated
1831 2011-02-16 12:02:49 <sipa> but i want something that tells me a good estimate for the generation rate *now*
1832 2011-02-16 12:02:55 <sipa> not 3 days ago
1833 2011-02-16 12:03:03 <UukGoblin> mhm
1834 2011-02-16 12:03:10 <sipa> and if i have that data, i can use that to do a graph :)
1835 2011-02-16 12:03:16 <lfm> bah smoothing is a lie, and you can smooth it in your head if you want to
1836 2011-02-16 12:03:23 <UukGoblin> can you ever get it for *now* exactly? it's so random on small timescales...
1837 2011-02-16 12:03:33 <sipa> i can't get it exactly, of course
1838 2011-02-16 12:03:36 <sipa> it's statistical
1839 2011-02-16 12:03:44 <andrew12> super statistical
1840 2011-02-16 12:03:47 <sipa> but i can do it without systematic error
1841 2011-02-16 12:03:59 <UukGoblin> ok
1842 2011-02-16 12:04:10 <sipa> which you would get if you used a 6-days average of past data for estimating the current speed
1843 2011-02-16 12:04:18 <UukGoblin> so on to that "fitting the exponential function"... I thought you needed data first to fit a function to it..?
1844 2011-02-16 12:04:21 <andrew12> wow, i think there's more blocks being generated than there are transactions
1845 2011-02-16 12:04:46 <sipa> UukGoblin: i have data, generation times and difficulties
1846 2011-02-16 12:05:07 <andrew12> nevermind, but there is definitely a lot of blocks :P
1847 2011-02-16 12:05:18 lfm_ has joined
1848 2011-02-16 12:05:27 <lfm_> there's lies, then there is damned lies, and then there's statistics
1849 2011-02-16 12:05:53 <andrew12> 97% of statistics are made up on the spot
1850 2011-02-16 12:06:04 <UukGoblin> sipa, yes
1851 2011-02-16 12:06:25 <sipa> UukGoblin: so, assume there's an exponential function that gives the real generation rate
1852 2011-02-16 12:06:27 <UukGoblin> sipa, so you'd plot that data somehow and fit a function to the plot, right?
1853 2011-02-16 12:06:36 <molecular> ;;seen slush
1854 2011-02-16 12:06:37 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 23 minutes and 48 seconds ago: <slush> or wait until we generate few more bitcoins :)
1855 2011-02-16 12:06:43 <sipa> we know that'd be incorrect, but it's an approximation
1856 2011-02-16 12:06:44 <sipa> ok?
1857 2011-02-16 12:06:45 <UukGoblin> plotting the generation times is what I have difficulty with to start
1858 2011-02-16 12:06:57 <sipa> no, it's not that kind of fitting
1859 2011-02-16 12:07:08 <sipa> but you're with me, now?
1860 2011-02-16 12:07:11 <UukGoblin> there we go
1861 2011-02-16 12:07:15 <sipa> so
1862 2011-02-16 12:07:23 <UukGoblin> sipa, well, I can assume, but I don't understand why I'd assume that
1863 2011-02-16 12:07:28 gasteve has joined
1864 2011-02-16 12:07:36 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1865 2011-02-16 12:07:38 <sipa> you can do it with any kind of function
1866 2011-02-16 12:07:39 <UukGoblin> I know you know it's an exponential one, but I don't see it
1867 2011-02-16 12:07:45 lfm_ is now known as lfm
1868 2011-02-16 12:07:55 <sipa> a straight line on my graph would correspond to an exponential function
1869 2011-02-16 12:07:58 <UukGoblin> so we could fit a linear one instead?
1870 2011-02-16 12:08:07 <sipa> since the plot is exponential already
1871 2011-02-16 12:08:29 <UukGoblin> yes, the plot being exponential I consider as a presentation detail
1872 2011-02-16 12:08:29 <sipa> yes you could fit a linear one as well, but to correspond not as good to reality
1873 2011-02-16 12:09:01 <molecular> maybe a taylor polynomial. except if it's really exponential, an exponential function will fit better
1874 2011-02-16 12:09:18 <sipa> so if you agree with me that (in small windows) the plot looks more or less linear, an exponential hashing rate is a good candidate
1875 2011-02-16 12:09:39 <sipa> molecular: there's also the reason that an exponential makes the math quite easy, in fact a lot easier than a linear one
1876 2011-02-16 12:09:45 <sipa> but let's ignore that reason :)
1877 2011-02-16 12:09:55 <UukGoblin> mhm
1878 2011-02-16 12:10:12 <lfm> sipa use a log y axis makes it look more linear
1879 2011-02-16 12:10:24 <UukGoblin> ok so I take it on faith that... there exist some A and B that... A * e^(B * t)...?
1880 2011-02-16 12:10:31 <sipa> lfm: look carefully at my y-axis http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png
1881 2011-02-16 12:10:33 <UukGoblin> lfm, he does use it
1882 2011-02-16 12:10:41 <sipa> both y-axes actually
1883 2011-02-16 12:10:47 <sipa> UukGoblin: yes
1884 2011-02-16 12:10:56 <lfm> ok I had not seen it
1885 2011-02-16 12:10:59 <molecular> I have to agree, at least currently and a lot in the past that it looks quite exponential
1886 2011-02-16 12:10:59 <molecular> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png <- looking at this, right?
1887 2011-02-16 12:10:59 <slush> molecular: yes?
1888 2011-02-16 12:11:06 <sipa> UukGoblin: so, now we need to find A and B
1889 2011-02-16 12:11:27 ducki2p has joined
1890 2011-02-16 12:11:34 <UukGoblin> sipa, nono, slow down
1891 2011-02-16 12:11:44 <UukGoblin> sipa, A * e^(B * t) = ?
1892 2011-02-16 12:11:46 <molecular> yes what? you could find A, B?
1893 2011-02-16 12:11:49 Tritonio has joined
1894 2011-02-16 12:12:04 <slush> molecular: ;;seen slush
1895 2011-02-16 12:12:17 <sipa> UukGoblin: Hashes_per_second(t) = A*e^(B*t)
1896 2011-02-16 12:12:20 <UukGoblin> t is the time of generation of each data block?
1897 2011-02-16 12:12:30 <sipa> that's the assumption
1898 2011-02-16 12:12:32 <UukGoblin> ah.
1899 2011-02-16 12:12:40 <UukGoblin> ok, that looks better
1900 2011-02-16 12:13:19 <sipa> so we look at a given window of data
1901 2011-02-16 12:13:23 <sipa> let's say a week
1902 2011-02-16 12:13:30 <molecular> you should also maybe add a constant C ?
1903 2011-02-16 12:13:39 <lfm> two weeks is what is used for difficulty
1904 2011-02-16 12:13:44 <sipa> you could, i haven't tried
1905 2011-02-16 12:13:56 <molecular> = C + A * e^(Bt)
1906 2011-02-16 12:14:03 <andrew12> lfm: 210000 blocks (or so)
1907 2011-02-16 12:14:05 <sipa> btw, we count one N-difficulty block as N*2^32 hashes, ok?
1908 2011-02-16 12:14:11 <sipa> that's not correct either, but it's a best guess
1909 2011-02-16 12:14:19 <sipa> andrew12: 2016 blocks
1910 2011-02-16 12:14:25 <sipa> but that doesn't matter actually
1911 2011-02-16 12:14:30 <lfm> andrew thats for 4 yeas, two weeks is 2016
1912 2011-02-16 12:14:31 <andrew12> oh, right
1913 2011-02-16 12:14:31 <Keefe> sipa: have you already made yourself a chart of $/day for say 1 ghps?
1914 2011-02-16 12:14:31 <UukGoblin> sipa, sorry, have to go for lunch, be back in about an hour, would love to pick up from there ;-] I'll read your messages once I'm back
1915 2011-02-16 12:14:32 <TheAncientGoat_> Anyonw working on porting Bitcoing to WP7?
1916 2011-02-16 12:14:32 <andrew12> heh
1917 2011-02-16 12:14:32 <sipa> 210000 is for changing the subsidy
1918 2011-02-16 12:15:02 <andrew12> TheAncientGoat_: Android first ;)
1919 2011-02-16 12:15:04 <sipa> UukGoblin: no, poke me if you're back :)
1920 2011-02-16 12:15:16 <TheAncientGoat_> andrew12: Well, I'm not asking for it
1921 2011-02-16 12:15:22 <TheAncientGoat_> andrew12: Because it's impossible!
1922 2011-02-16 12:15:35 <TheAncientGoat_> andrew12: No open source software on WP7 :D
1923 2011-02-16 12:15:50 <lfm> TheAncientGoat_: anyone use WP7?
1924 2011-02-16 12:16:03 <TheAncientGoat_> lfm: Nokia :Q
1925 2011-02-16 12:16:23 <Keefe> sipa: if not, i'm putting one up in a min...
1926 2011-02-16 12:16:28 <lfm> TheAncientGoat_: not for long is you beleive recent news
1927 2011-02-16 12:16:38 <TheAncientGoat_> lfm: Hmm?
1928 2011-02-16 12:16:56 <sipa> Keefe: i haven't done so (yet)
1929 2011-02-16 12:16:57 <lfm> TheAncientGoat_: nokia going to windows 7 mobile
1930 2011-02-16 12:17:48 <TheAncientGoat_> lfm: Yes, they are. But the WP7 application licensing aggreement states no open source software; it's the reason why Qt isn't being ported
1931 2011-02-16 12:18:06 <Keefe> sipa: http://i56.tinypic.com/14ln2c5.png
1932 2011-02-16 12:18:15 <TheAncientGoat_> Well, the main reason is because MS would never ever allow cross platform to take hold of their closed ecosystem
1933 2011-02-16 12:18:25 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1934 2011-02-16 12:18:27 <TheAncientGoat_> But in general, they hate open source
1935 2011-02-16 12:18:41 <Keefe> $ per day if sold at mtgox weighted avg trade price, based on 1 ghps
1936 2011-02-16 12:18:58 * andrew12 complains about the use of "open source" over "free software"
1937 2011-02-16 12:19:08 <lfm> microsoft mainly hates gpl, they like bsd and steal from it all the time
1938 2011-02-16 12:22:20 <TheAncientGoat_> lfm: "like" in the same way you like someone you take advantage of
1939 2011-02-16 12:22:23 <TheAncientGoat_> There's still disdain in there
1940 2011-02-16 12:23:28 <andrew12> well they also steal from google :P
1941 2011-02-16 12:27:16 Hackbat has joined
1942 2011-02-16 12:28:10 <Hackbat> what's the command to claculate how long it takes to make a block?
1943 2011-02-16 12:28:36 <andrew12> ;;bc,calc 1000
1944 2011-02-16 12:28:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 3 years, 28 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 40 minutes, and 44 seconds
1945 2011-02-16 12:28:50 <andrew12> replace 1000 with your khashes/s
1946 2011-02-16 12:29:03 <andrew12> ;;bc,gen 500000
1947 2011-02-16 12:29:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 19.3444308407 BTC per day and 0.806017951697 BTC per hour.
1948 2011-02-16 12:29:05 <Hackbat> ;;bc,calc 4594
1949 2011-02-16 12:29:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4594 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 40 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 33 minutes, and 45 seconds
1950 2011-02-16 12:29:22 <Hackbat> D: even with my gaming pc
1951 2011-02-16 12:29:37 <andrew12> try using a gpu miner
1952 2011-02-16 12:29:47 <Hackbat> >_>
1953 2011-02-16 12:30:00 <andrew12> ???
1954 2011-02-16 12:30:07 <Hackbat> yes because I want to spend $500 on gpus for 50 bitcoins
1955 2011-02-16 12:30:21 <andrew12> do you not have a gpu?
1956 2011-02-16 12:30:29 <afed> Hackbat: no, lots of bitcoins
1957 2011-02-16 12:30:43 <Hackbat> I have a gpu
1958 2011-02-16 12:30:50 <andrew12> i'm assuming your gaming machine has a gpu otherwise it's a pretty sorry gaming machine indeed
1959 2011-02-16 12:31:04 <Hackbat> I have a redeon
1960 2011-02-16 12:31:08 <Hackbat> they don't do CUDA
1961 2011-02-16 12:31:13 <andrew12> they do opencl
1962 2011-02-16 12:31:13 <Hackbat> *radeon
1963 2011-02-16 12:31:26 <Hackbat> oh?
1964 2011-02-16 12:31:27 <sipa> radeon or radeon hd?
1965 2011-02-16 12:31:38 <Hackbat> HD
1966 2011-02-16 12:31:39 <andrew12> there's links to some gpu miners on http://mining.bitcoin.cz
1967 2011-02-16 12:31:41 <sipa> which one?
1968 2011-02-16 12:32:01 <Hackbat> 4680? I think
1969 2011-02-16 12:32:32 <sipa> hmm that's not listed on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
1970 2011-02-16 12:32:40 <sipa> sure that exists?
1971 2011-02-16 12:32:53 <andrew12> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OpenCL_miner
1972 2011-02-16 12:32:54 <Hackbat> it's in the 4800 series
1973 2011-02-16 12:32:55 <sipa> oh, 4860 maybe?
1974 2011-02-16 12:33:22 <andrew12> if it was in the 4800 series would it make sense for it to start with 46? ;)
1975 2011-02-16 12:33:22 <Hackbat> yes
1976 2011-02-16 12:33:25 <sipa> sounds like that's still a profitable one
1977 2011-02-16 12:33:57 <Hackbat> could I get yall to email me some links to stuff while I'm at school?
1978 2011-02-16 12:34:15 <sipa> just start reading
1979 2011-02-16 12:34:27 <sipa> look under mining on the forum
1980 2011-02-16 12:34:31 <sipa> and the wiki
1981 2011-02-16 12:34:39 <Hackbat> fine fine @_@
1982 2011-02-16 12:34:45 <sipa> if you have question, please ask
1983 2011-02-16 12:34:47 <Hackbat> make me actually work for my money
1984 2011-02-16 12:34:52 <lfm> just start at bitcoin.org and read everything
1985 2011-02-16 12:34:53 <Hackbat> you horrible people
1986 2011-02-16 12:34:56 <Hackbat> :P
1987 2011-02-16 12:34:57 <sipa> but we're not doing it for you
1988 2011-02-16 12:35:09 <Hackbat> lol I was messing with yoa
1989 2011-02-16 12:39:07 mbarkhau has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1990 2011-02-16 12:44:21 <andrew12> heh
1991 2011-02-16 12:44:44 <andrew12> Hackbat: send your gaming machine to me ;)
1992 2011-02-16 12:51:02 Hackbat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1993 2011-02-16 13:15:21 mbarkhau has joined
1994 2011-02-16 13:22:01 <JunK-Y> by having my wallet.dat, all my transactions are safe?
1995 2011-02-16 13:22:49 <Diablo-D3> [05:50:17] <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, also, is that CPU usage bug filed with ATI somewhere / mentioned on AMD forums?
1996 2011-02-16 13:22:50 <Diablo-D3> yes
1997 2011-02-16 13:23:01 <Diablo-D3> theres at least one thread that mentions the hack too
1998 2011-02-16 13:23:06 <sipa> JunK-Y: yes
1999 2011-02-16 13:23:17 <JunK-Y> good morning btw guys :)
2000 2011-02-16 13:23:18 <Diablo-D3> [05:31:08] <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, do you think the CPU consumption issue with sdk 2.2+ could be solved by using the Stream API instead of OpenCL? Is there even such a thing as a Stream API?
2001 2011-02-16 13:23:21 <Diablo-D3> you mean CAL
2002 2011-02-16 13:23:26 <Diablo-D3> CAL doesnt suffer from the bug
2003 2011-02-16 13:23:34 <sipa> JunK-Y: well, all your coins are safe, the transactions are always safe (they're stored in the network)
2004 2011-02-16 13:23:39 <Diablo-D3> but CAL is also much harder to use, and your program essentially only works on one arch
2005 2011-02-16 13:24:07 <JunK-Y> but if i reinstall, i'll have a different wallet, no?
2006 2011-02-16 13:25:03 <sipa> JunK-Y: overwrite it
2007 2011-02-16 13:25:12 <sipa> and remove the db
2008 2011-02-16 13:25:20 <sipa> and then restart bitcoin(d)
2009 2011-02-16 13:25:33 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: yes, all you have to backup is wallet.dat
2010 2011-02-16 13:27:07 <JunK-Y> in the faq it saying the wallet could be partially or fully invalid, why exactly? a 'backup' should be a backup, no?
2011 2011-02-16 13:39:27 <lfm> and old wallet might be missing some keys. a wallet backed up incorrectly may have been in the middle of an update makeing parts invalid
2012 2011-02-16 13:39:32 <JunK-Y> slush: you should add a speed at 60 Ghash in the news :)
2013 2011-02-16 13:39:57 <lfm> ;;bc,poolstats
2014 2011-02-16 13:39:58 <gribble> {"active_workers": 768, "ghashes_ps": "59.593", "getwork_ps": 333}
2015 2011-02-16 13:40:23 bitcoin_bonus is now known as dduane
2016 2011-02-16 13:40:27 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017 2011-02-16 13:40:40 <JunK-Y> it was 60.something few minutes ago
2018 2011-02-16 13:40:52 <lfm> ;;bc,poolstats
2019 2011-02-16 13:40:52 <gribble> {"active_workers": 766, "ghashes_ps": "58.875", "getwork_ps": 330}
2020 2011-02-16 13:41:05 dduane is now known as bitcoin_bonus
2021 2011-02-16 13:42:16 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,poolstats
2022 2011-02-16 13:42:17 <gribble> {"active_workers": 767, "ghashes_ps": "58.347", "getwork_ps": 379}
2023 2011-02-16 13:44:21 <davex__> ;;bc,estimate
2024 2011-02-16 13:44:21 <gribble> 34898.03981473
2025 2011-02-16 13:44:29 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
2026 2011-02-16 13:44:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108463 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 400 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 23 hours, 40 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34898.03981473
2027 2011-02-16 13:45:10 mtgox has joined
2028 2011-02-16 13:46:11 <JunK-Y> so it goes from 25997.87992881 to 34898.03981473, pretty huge step
2029 2011-02-16 13:47:32 <dsg> That's still not enough to correct the gap between bitcoin price and generation cost, so it will increase more shortly.
2030 2011-02-16 13:47:39 <da2ce7> JunK-Y, how many GHash/s are you putting in?
2031 2011-02-16 13:48:14 <JunK-Y> like 1
2032 2011-02-16 13:48:24 <JunK-Y> u?
2033 2011-02-16 13:48:34 <da2ce7> hmm, same atm about put online annother 0.5
2034 2011-02-16 13:48:48 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2035 2011-02-16 13:49:20 molecular has joined
2036 2011-02-16 13:50:02 <JunK-Y> im asking myself if i should go get 2 more 5970 or not :)
2037 2011-02-16 13:50:34 <da2ce7> need to get more!
2038 2011-02-16 13:50:35 <da2ce7> :)
2039 2011-02-16 13:52:39 <JunK-Y> a 700$ each, i cant afford more than that
2040 2011-02-16 13:53:18 <da2ce7> yeah, I'm eyeing off a $650 ... hmmm.
2041 2011-02-16 13:53:27 <da2ce7> (needs to find cash)
2042 2011-02-16 13:53:38 <UukGoblin> sipa, I'm back :-]
2043 2011-02-16 13:54:00 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, yeah, I meant CAL I think
2044 2011-02-16 13:55:29 <UukGoblin> sipa, so we look at a weekly window of timestamp data?
2045 2011-02-16 13:55:50 <UukGoblin> and we have Hashes_per_second(t) = A*e^(B*t)
2046 2011-02-16 13:56:30 <sipa> yes
2047 2011-02-16 13:56:56 <JunK-Y> da2ce7: we all want better, dont worry
2048 2011-02-16 13:57:10 <sipa> the way to find the "best" guess for A and B is done through a technique called maximum likelyhood estimation, but i'll just tell you the result
2049 2011-02-16 13:57:43 <sipa> typically, there will be some property that will be equal for the observed data and the function you're fitting through it
2050 2011-02-16 13:57:57 <UukGoblin> hm
2051 2011-02-16 13:58:24 <sipa> the first one is probably one you already guessed: the number of hashes observed in the window should be equal to the number given by the fitted function in that same window
2052 2011-02-16 13:58:37 <sipa> sounds reasonable? :)
2053 2011-02-16 13:58:57 <UukGoblin> hm yeah...
2054 2011-02-16 13:59:00 <UukGoblin> I mean...
2055 2011-02-16 13:59:10 <sipa> if we were using a constant function hashes_per_second(t) = A, A would just be the average number of hashes you observed
2056 2011-02-16 13:59:12 <UukGoblin> yeah, you could get away with that I guess
2057 2011-02-16 13:59:13 <sipa> quite trivial
2058 2011-02-16 13:59:22 <sipa> but you can prove it's more general than that
2059 2011-02-16 14:00:18 <sipa> now the second property (we need two properties to solve for two parameters), is one you might not expect
2060 2011-02-16 14:00:46 <UukGoblin> you mean B
2061 2011-02-16 14:00:49 <sipa> no
2062 2011-02-16 14:01:09 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,poolstats
2063 2011-02-16 14:01:10 <gribble> {"active_workers": 792, "ghashes_ps": "60.223", "getwork_ps": 367}
2064 2011-02-16 14:01:16 <JunK-Y> yay!
2065 2011-02-16 14:01:19 <UukGoblin> oh, so two properties of the sought function, both affecting A and B?
2066 2011-02-16 14:01:31 <sipa> with the property "the number of observed hashes should be equal to those given by the fitted function A*exp(B*t)" you're not able to find either A or B
2067 2011-02-16 14:01:37 <sipa> but you already have one equation
2068 2011-02-16 14:01:44 <sipa> you just need a second equation
2069 2011-02-16 14:02:07 <sipa> and the second one is
2070 2011-02-16 14:02:09 <sipa> *drums*
2071 2011-02-16 14:02:10 <JunK-Y> by having the number of workers and the current speed, that would be interesting to see the average speed per workers.
2072 2011-02-16 14:02:28 <sipa> the average time around which hashes were found should be equal as well
2073 2011-02-16 14:02:59 <sipa> if you have a rate which is increasing eg., the average time will be a bit more to the right of the window than the left
2074 2011-02-16 14:03:00 <UukGoblin> in that window
2075 2011-02-16 14:03:03 <sipa> indeed
2076 2011-02-16 14:03:03 <UukGoblin> hrm
2077 2011-02-16 14:03:12 <UukGoblin> yeah
2078 2011-02-16 14:03:17 <sipa> that was really a surprisingly simple result when i found it
2079 2011-02-16 14:03:52 <sipa> but you can calculate for A*exp(B*t) and a given window what the average time is
2080 2011-02-16 14:04:05 <sipa> and do that for the observed blocks as well
2081 2011-02-16 14:06:18 <UukGoblin> well... the average time should be 10 minutes, no?
2082 2011-02-16 14:06:21 sabalaba has joined
2083 2011-02-16 14:06:35 <sipa> no no
2084 2011-02-16 14:06:35 <afed> ;;bc,stats
2085 2011-02-16 14:06:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108469 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 394 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 22 hours, 43 minutes, and 58 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 34954.27566898
2086 2011-02-16 14:06:39 <sipa> not duration
2087 2011-02-16 14:06:40 <sipa> time
2088 2011-02-16 14:06:53 <UukGoblin> like a unix timestamp?
2089 2011-02-16 14:06:56 <sipa> yes
2090 2011-02-16 14:06:59 <sipa> if your window is 6 days wide
2091 2011-02-16 14:07:06 <sipa> and the hashing rate stays equal
2092 2011-02-16 14:07:15 <sipa> the average time will be approximately in the middle
2093 2011-02-16 14:07:26 <sipa> i.e. 3 days in the past
2094 2011-02-16 14:07:36 <UukGoblin> mhm
2095 2011-02-16 14:07:37 <sipa> but if the hashing rate is increasing
2096 2011-02-16 14:07:51 <UukGoblin> yes
2097 2011-02-16 14:07:52 <sipa> there will be more hashes near the end of the window than near the beginnen
2098 2011-02-16 14:08:19 <sipa> right?
2099 2011-02-16 14:08:27 <sipa> *beginning
2100 2011-02-16 14:08:31 <UukGoblin> so we'll have mean > start + window_len / 2
2101 2011-02-16 14:08:37 <sipa> indeed
2102 2011-02-16 14:09:17 <UukGoblin> we could just take the difference between (start + window_len / 2) and the mean and use that as our 'rate'
2103 2011-02-16 14:09:30 <sipa> that's not the rate
2104 2011-02-16 14:09:38 <sipa> but it is a property of the observation
2105 2011-02-16 14:09:52 <sipa> and you should make sure the fitted function has the same value for that property
2106 2011-02-16 14:10:28 <UukGoblin> hrm
2107 2011-02-16 14:10:29 <sipa> you see?
2108 2011-02-16 14:11:08 <sipa> i mean, you agree that it's a reasonable property, and that it does relate to the growth rate
2109 2011-02-16 14:11:15 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2110 2011-02-16 14:11:41 <UukGoblin> so hang on, we're observing some function which we don't know, and we're trying to find A and B in our "assumed" equation so that equation will approximate the original unknown function?
2111 2011-02-16 14:12:10 <sipa> yes
2112 2011-02-16 14:12:40 <sipa> and assuming that the real function is something of the form A*exp(B*t), we trying to find the best values for A and B given the data we have
2113 2011-02-16 14:12:50 <UukGoblin> can't the original function be described as something simple?
2114 2011-02-16 14:13:06 <sipa> i find A*exp(B*t) extremely simple :)
2115 2011-02-16 14:13:39 <sipa> but yes, you could just use a constant function A, and have an approximation that's a bit worse
2116 2011-02-16 14:14:00 <UukGoblin> I mean, the average total network computation rate in a window of length L will be amount of blocks calculated in time L
2117 2011-02-16 14:14:33 <UukGoblin> well A*exp(B*t) looks fairly simple but you still need to find the A and B (and yes, I know you're dying to tell me how;->)
2118 2011-02-16 14:14:42 <sipa> i've told you how
2119 2011-02-16 14:14:49 <sipa> just not the solution to the equations
2120 2011-02-16 14:15:14 <UukGoblin> well yeah you made 2 observations about our original function.. how do these observation lead to finding A and B..?
2121 2011-02-16 14:15:30 <sipa> the principle is: make sure the expected number of hashes is right, and that their average timing is right
2122 2011-02-16 14:16:04 <sipa> well, assume your window is [0,1]
2123 2011-02-16 14:16:08 <sipa> in whatever unit
2124 2011-02-16 14:16:12 <UukGoblin> there's no "right"... I mean... The "right" is only defined for a network that neither grows nor shrinks
2125 2011-02-16 14:16:26 <sipa> "right" == "equal to what you observed"
2126 2011-02-16 14:16:33 <UukGoblin> ok
2127 2011-02-16 14:16:59 <sipa> you could do this for rectangular windows
2128 2011-02-16 14:17:23 <sipa> being just "look at 6 days of data, discard all the rest, and give equal weight to everything"
2129 2011-02-16 14:17:35 <UukGoblin> let's name the "network growth" function as g(t) and our "estimated network growth" as a(t) = A*exp(B*t) perhaps to make it simpler
2130 2011-02-16 14:17:45 <sipa> what is g(t) ?
2131 2011-02-16 14:18:08 <sipa> B ?
2132 2011-02-16 14:18:09 <UukGoblin> the original function which we don't know but are trying to approximate
2133 2011-02-16 14:18:36 <UukGoblin> which I would say is something like g(t) = num_of_blocks_found_in_window
2134 2011-02-16 14:18:50 <sipa> that'd be network block rate
2135 2011-02-16 14:18:56 <sipa> not growth
2136 2011-02-16 14:19:08 <UukGoblin> oh
2137 2011-02-16 14:19:12 <UukGoblin> true
2138 2011-02-16 14:19:16 <sipa> and a(t) is hashes_per_second
2139 2011-02-16 14:19:17 <UukGoblin> growth would be g'(t)
2140 2011-02-16 14:19:25 <sipa> you could say a'(t) is the growth
2141 2011-02-16 14:19:35 <UukGoblin> (I used 'a' for "assumed")
2142 2011-02-16 14:19:47 <sipa> but g you don't know or can't observe
2143 2011-02-16 14:20:02 <sipa> oh wait
2144 2011-02-16 14:20:06 <sipa> blocks found in a window
2145 2011-02-16 14:20:11 <sipa> yes, that's a property
2146 2011-02-16 14:20:33 <sipa> actually, use sum(difficulty(b), b in blocks in window)
2147 2011-02-16 14:21:31 <UukGoblin> what's b?
2148 2011-02-16 14:21:53 <sipa> a block
2149 2011-02-16 14:22:22 <UukGoblin> 'block in blocks in window'..?
2150 2011-02-16 14:22:35 <sipa> that's just a notation for "the sum of the difficulties of the blocks in the window"
2151 2011-02-16 14:22:49 <UukGoblin> oh right
2152 2011-02-16 14:23:07 satamusic has joined
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2155 2011-02-16 14:23:11 <UukGoblin> that'll most of the time be the difficulty(mean block in window)
2156 2011-02-16 14:23:19 <UukGoblin> ah no
2157 2011-02-16 14:23:22 <UukGoblin> * number of blocks
2158 2011-02-16 14:23:50 <sipa> and the other observation is sum(time(b)*difficulty(b), b in blocks in window) / sum(difficulty(b), b in blocks in window)
2159 2011-02-16 14:23:56 <sipa> that's the average time
2160 2011-02-16 14:26:04 <UukGoblin> so... my $sum = 0; foreach my $b in (@blocks_in_window) { $sum += $b->time * $b->difficulty }
2161 2011-02-16 14:26:32 <sipa> my original implementation was in perl, actually :)
2162 2011-02-16 14:26:36 Kiba has joined
2163 2011-02-16 14:26:39 <sipa> now it's in C though
2164 2011-02-16 14:26:52 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2165 2011-02-16 14:26:56 <UukGoblin> and then we divide it by.... sum(difficulty(b))? wouldn't that just be equal to sum(time(b), b)?
2166 2011-02-16 14:27:06 <sipa> not at all
2167 2011-02-16 14:27:55 satamusic has joined
2168 2011-02-16 14:28:11 <sipa> my ($sum,$sumt) = (0,0); foreach my $b in (@blocks_in_window) { $sum += $b->{difficulty}; $sumt += $b->{time} * $b->{difficulty} }; my $avgtime = $sumt/$sum
2169 2011-02-16 14:28:37 <UukGoblin> hang on let me just check that...
2170 2011-02-16 14:31:02 <UukGoblin> yeah ok it's different
2171 2011-02-16 14:31:08 <UukGoblin> my summing skills suck
2172 2011-02-16 14:33:22 <UukGoblin> that will quite likely be equal to (sum(time, b) * avg_diff) / (avg_diff * num_blocks)
2173 2011-02-16 14:35:06 <UukGoblin> as in... my $sum = 0; foreach my $b (@blocks_in_window) { $sum += $b->time }; my $avgtime = $sum * $avg_diff / ($avg_diff * $#blocks_in_window)
2174 2011-02-16 14:35:33 <UukGoblin> the last statement simplifies to my $avgtime = $sum / $#blocks_in_window
2175 2011-02-16 14:36:25 <UukGoblin> which looks about right
2176 2011-02-16 14:36:36 satamusic_ has joined
2177 2011-02-16 14:37:35 <UukGoblin> which is kinda like 141958 <@UukGoblin> and then we divide it by.... sum(difficulty(b))? wouldn't  that just be equal to sum(time(b), b)?
2178 2011-02-16 14:37:39 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2179 2011-02-16 14:37:45 <UukGoblin> but with a / $#blocks_in_window at the end
2180 2011-02-16 14:42:15 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2185 2011-02-16 14:46:18 <sipa> yeah
2186 2011-02-16 14:46:31 <sipa> it's just a weighted count of the blocks
2187 2011-02-16 14:46:36 <sipa> and a weighted average of their time
2188 2011-02-16 14:47:13 <sipa> and you can find formulas for that weighted count and weighted average too, assuming A*exp(B*t) and a given window
2189 2011-02-16 14:47:40 <sipa> and by equating those formulas to the observed count and average time, you get equations with A and B as unknowns
2190 2011-02-16 14:47:44 <sipa> and you can solve those
2191 2011-02-16 14:47:49 <sipa> giving you values for A and B
2192 2011-02-16 14:48:10 <sipa> (but those look *really* horrible, and i don't have those results anymore)
2193 2011-02-16 14:49:48 <UukGoblin> maxima is great for solving horrible simultaneous equations
2194 2011-02-16 14:49:59 <sipa> i did it with maple
2195 2011-02-16 14:50:03 <UukGoblin> so what are the magic values for A and B?
2196 2011-02-16 14:50:12 satamusic__ is now known as satamusic
2197 2011-02-16 14:50:17 <sipa> and was only able to find a numerical approximation after a few hours of work
2198 2011-02-16 14:50:21 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
2199 2011-02-16 14:50:21 satamusic has joined
2200 2011-02-16 14:50:21 <sipa> so, no go :)
2201 2011-02-16 14:50:27 <UukGoblin> whoah.
2202 2011-02-16 14:50:39 <sipa> *however*
2203 2011-02-16 14:50:55 <sipa> if you don't use a normal (rectangular) window, but an exponential window
2204 2011-02-16 14:51:03 <sipa> so you use all data available
2205 2011-02-16 14:51:17 <sipa> but give it more and more weight if it's more and more recent
2206 2011-02-16 14:51:24 <sipa> the formula's become trivial
2207 2011-02-16 14:51:32 <xelister> \o/ Bitcoin Over Freenet :)
2208 2011-02-16 14:51:35 <xelister> http://127.0.0.1:8888/freenet:USK@oG7cGoUEBuHyulWpcmqV0yc-I569Re2A7RRs8zRljEs,IWIcXczmLdP9FEjTvoxJgGnXnK5~PxOppN-wYSADPWQ,AQACAAE/bitcoin-over-freenet/1/
2209 2011-02-16 14:51:43 <xelister> any comments?
2210 2011-02-16 14:51:59 <UukGoblin> xelister, yeah: Connection refused ;-)
2211 2011-02-16 14:52:07 <sipa> UukGoblin: http://sipa.be/static/bitcoin/estim_exp_math.txt
2212 2011-02-16 14:52:43 <sipa> so we don't use A*exp(B*t) there, but something with a Mu (the current time, if you will) and Tau (the window size) in too
2213 2011-02-16 14:52:55 <UukGoblin> wth are Mu and Tau there? ;-]
2214 2011-02-16 14:53:08 <sipa> N and T are respectively the number of hashes and their average time
2215 2011-02-16 14:53:09 <UukGoblin> ah
2216 2011-02-16 14:53:27 <sipa> and the result is: A=N/T and B=1/T-1 :)
2217 2011-02-16 14:54:10 <xelister> UukGoblin: INSTALL FN YOU NOOB  ಠ_ಠ
2218 2011-02-16 14:54:56 <UukGoblin> xelister, dude, I'm not gonna install freenet on a work machine ;-P
2219 2011-02-16 14:55:12 <UukGoblin> I like my job [-;
2220 2011-02-16 14:55:14 <xelister> ಠ益ಠ
2221 2011-02-16 14:55:21 <UukGoblin> stop UTFing
2222 2011-02-16 14:55:25 <xelister> UukGoblin: set store size to 0.5 GiB =)
2223 2011-02-16 14:55:31 <sipa> ǝɹǝɥ ǝpoɔıun ʎɔuɐɟ ou 'ǝsɐǝʃd
2224 2011-02-16 14:55:47 <UukGoblin> 144833 < sipa> \u01dd\u0279\u01dd\u0265 \u01ddpo\u0254iun  \u028e\u0254u\u0250\u025f ou '\u01dds\u0250\u01dd\u0283d
2225 2011-02-16 14:55:51 <UukGoblin> ?
2226 2011-02-16 14:56:18 <xelister> ℒℴℒ
2227 2011-02-16 14:56:34 <sipa> UukGoblin: it was "please, no fancy unicode" written upside down
2228 2011-02-16 14:56:36 satamusic_ has joined
2229 2011-02-16 14:57:00 <UukGoblin> heh
2230 2011-02-16 14:57:28 <UukGoblin> I can spot the upside-down "no" ;-]
2231 2011-02-16 14:57:44 <sipa> UukGoblin: anyway, to conclude, if you're able to find A and B for a given window (window defined by Mu and Tau), you can easily convert it to a hash rate and growth rate
2232 2011-02-16 14:57:48 <UukGoblin> and "uni" and "od" ;-]
2233 2011-02-16 14:57:53 <sipa> last two lines of the text file
2234 2011-02-16 14:58:14 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2235 2011-02-16 14:58:24 <xelister> UukGoblin: http://imagebin.org/138208
2236 2011-02-16 14:58:40 <xelister> bitcoin transport over freenet: http://imagebin.org/138208
2237 2011-02-16 14:58:57 satamusic_ is now known as satamusic
2238 2011-02-16 14:59:03 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
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2240 2011-02-16 14:59:18 <UukGoblin> sipa, I'm lost, there's too many variables ;-( I'll try to give it a thought some other time I guess...
2241 2011-02-16 14:59:34 <UukGoblin> I'll come up with my idea of 'growth rate' and compare to yours perhaps
2242 2011-02-16 14:59:37 <sipa> UukGoblin: you understand what i mean with "exponential window" ?
2243 2011-02-16 14:59:43 <UukGoblin> not really
2244 2011-02-16 14:59:52 <UukGoblin> I mean.. kinda...
2245 2011-02-16 15:00:10 <UukGoblin> you mean a rectangular window but with exponential weights assigned to timestamps?
2246 2011-02-16 15:00:52 <UukGoblin> xelister, Patent pending? ;-)
2247 2011-02-16 15:01:33 <xelister> ;)
2248 2011-02-16 15:01:47 <UukGoblin> where is Betelgeuse? ;-O
2249 2011-02-16 15:02:04 <xelister> Hichhikers Guide.. ?
2250 2011-02-16 15:02:11 satamusic_ has joined
2251 2011-02-16 15:02:31 <UukGoblin> oh... only watched it once
2252 2011-02-16 15:03:43 <sipa> http://board800.com/start?name=4d5be540ca86e
2253 2011-02-16 15:03:51 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2255 2011-02-16 15:05:01 <UukGoblin> xelister, "Without any of this nodes ever touching normal IP Internet directly." - this sentence lacks the verb (orzeczenie, however that is in english). Also "IP Internet" is a pleonasm - IP already stands for Internet Protocol
2256 2011-02-16 15:05:29 <UukGoblin> xelister, similarly, "Just by using secure Freenet" lacks a verb
2257 2011-02-16 15:05:44 <sipa> UukGoblin: seen my drawing?
2258 2011-02-16 15:05:50 <xelister> hm. well its one long sentence =)  how wouldyou redesign it?  btw there is .svg
2259 2011-02-16 15:06:07 <UukGoblin> there is a dot there ;-]
2260 2011-02-16 15:06:18 <UukGoblin> xelister, I don't know how to redesign it cause I don't know what it's supposed to mean
2261 2011-02-16 15:06:30 <UukGoblin> sipa, ah yes, nice
2262 2011-02-16 15:06:35 <citiz3n> when using the normal bitcoin client in -server mode in window
2263 2011-02-16 15:06:37 <citiz3n> windows
2264 2011-02-16 15:06:38 <xelister> Here a node of crypto hashmoney BitCoin is able to pay to another BitCoin node silently! Without any of this nodes ever touching normal IP Internet directly. Just by using secure Freenet (distributed crypto storage net) Thanks to Bitcoin-over-freenet (BtcFn) technology.
2265 2011-02-16 15:06:52 <citiz3n> you don't need to have "generate" turned on to generate coins with separate miners right
2266 2011-02-16 15:06:54 <sipa> UukGoblin: upper is a normal window, bottom is exponential window
2267 2011-02-16 15:06:59 <UukGoblin> sipa, yes
2268 2011-02-16 15:07:00 <sipa> citiz3n: no, you don't
2269 2011-02-16 15:07:12 <citiz3n> crazy, i can't believe i haven't generated anything yet
2270 2011-02-16 15:07:23 <sipa> UukGoblin: that "now" value is the Mu
2271 2011-02-16 15:07:36 <sipa> and Tau is some measure for how quickly the weight decays
2272 2011-02-16 15:07:53 <UukGoblin> citiz3n, how many Ghash?
2273 2011-02-16 15:07:54 <citiz3n> ;;bc,prob 3042000 16hr
2274 2011-02-16 15:07:55 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression.  Please remove them.
2275 2011-02-16 15:08:05 <citiz3n> ;;bc,prob 3042000 16
2276 2011-02-16 15:08:05 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression.  Please remove them.
2277 2011-02-16 15:08:08 satamusic__ has joined
2278 2011-02-16 15:08:28 <UukGoblin> gribble, you're broken
2279 2011-02-16 15:08:37 <citiz3n> a little over 3 ghash
2280 2011-02-16 15:08:42 <UukGoblin> sipa, oh, allright
2281 2011-02-16 15:08:51 <UukGoblin> kinda like log-normal distribution parameters
2282 2011-02-16 15:09:00 <sipa> actually, yes
2283 2011-02-16 15:09:04 <UukGoblin> sipa, it's... interesting
2284 2011-02-16 15:09:12 satamusic__ is now known as satamusic
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2286 2011-02-16 15:09:18 satamusic has joined
2287 2011-02-16 15:09:24 <sipa> UukGoblin: :)
2288 2011-02-16 15:09:39 <xelister> This diagram shows how BitCoin users can pay anonymously. In this example a BitCoin node pays to another BitCoin node in silent way: none of this nodes use IP directyl. Here Bitcoin transactions can NOT be tied to any IP address! This is done thanks to Bitcoin-over-freenet transport (BtcFn) technology.
2289 2011-02-16 15:09:41 <xelister> UukGoblin: better?
2290 2011-02-16 15:10:24 <UukGoblin> xelister, yup, better. "in /a/ silent way" and "none of /these/" and it's fine
2291 2011-02-16 15:10:35 <UukGoblin> directyl is an obvious typo
2292 2011-02-16 15:10:46 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2293 2011-02-16 15:10:51 * xelister sucks dongs at english... hey perhaps Ati Drivers dep is hiring?
2294 2011-02-16 15:11:01 <UukGoblin> xelister, also, I believe the transactions will then be tied to the purple BtcFn node's IP address..?
2295 2011-02-16 15:11:30 <UukGoblin> sipa, amazing, how much a single picture can tell
2296 2011-02-16 15:12:11 <UukGoblin> sipa, I like how this exponential approach will smooth out the randomness
2297 2011-02-16 15:12:25 <xelister> UukGoblin: yes. So what, the purple node (gateway) can not be hold liable - it even CAN NOT know the IP of originator, because it receives tx over freenet where no IPs are seen =)
2298 2011-02-16 15:12:31 satamusic_ has joined
2299 2011-02-16 15:13:00 <sipa> UukGoblin: any window would smooth out randomness
2300 2011-02-16 15:13:13 <sipa> but an exponential one has the advantage of making the formulas very simple
2301 2011-02-16 15:13:15 <UukGoblin> sipa, so these "7-day estimate for growth" lines relate to Tau?
2302 2011-02-16 15:13:21 <sipa> those are tau :)
2303 2011-02-16 15:13:31 <sipa> tau = 7 days, in that case
2304 2011-02-16 15:13:41 <UukGoblin> :-]
2305 2011-02-16 15:13:51 <sipa> it the duration over which the weight gets divided by e
2306 2011-02-16 15:13:51 albertid has left ("Verlassend")
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2308 2011-02-16 15:14:13 <UukGoblin> xelister, well, of course it can be held liable ;-]
2309 2011-02-16 15:14:27 <UukGoblin> xelister, I can hold /you/ liable for all bitcoin transactions...
2310 2011-02-16 15:14:40 <UukGoblin> xelister, "give me a man and I'll find a paragraph on him"
2311 2011-02-16 15:14:51 <citiz3n> where's the gribble bot guide
2312 2011-02-16 15:15:03 <xelister> hmm  http://board800.com/start?name=4d5be540ca86e   ? there is something peculiar about this picture. but I find it correct.
2313 2011-02-16 15:15:37 <UukGoblin> xelister, ...
2314 2011-02-16 15:15:41 <xelister> >_>
2315 2011-02-16 15:15:43 <UukGoblin> kid.
2316 2011-02-16 15:15:57 <UukGoblin> WE WERE DOING SCIENCE THERE! ;-P
2317 2011-02-16 15:16:06 <xelister> stand back! I DO SCIENCE
2318 2011-02-16 15:16:43 <xelister> UukGoblin: well but then you can as well delegalize Bitcoin
2319 2011-02-16 15:16:48 <sipa> http://imgs.xkcd.com/store/imgs/stand_back_square_0.png
2320 2011-02-16 15:16:55 <xelister> this is also how all tor exit nodes are operating
2321 2011-02-16 15:17:13 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2322 2011-02-16 15:17:27 <UukGoblin> sipa, how many years of maths at uni does it take to come up with stuff like that, on average? ;-]
2323 2011-02-16 15:17:44 <UukGoblin> xelister, well, yeah
2324 2011-02-16 15:17:50 <xelister> anyone has graph on diff now and prognose?
2325 2011-02-16 15:17:51 <sipa> no idea, but i'm currently doing a phd in computer science :)
2326 2011-02-16 15:17:54 <UukGoblin> it'd be a BtcFN exit node ;-]
2327 2011-02-16 15:18:15 <sipa> xelister: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png may help you already
2328 2011-02-16 15:18:23 <xelister> UukGoblin: yes. and police can suck your dongs, participating in bitcoin is not illegal
2329 2011-02-16 15:18:28 <nanotube> UukGoblin: no, citiz3n's input is broken
2330 2011-02-16 15:18:45 <xelister> UukGoblin: either way this is so much complex then normal mode
2331 2011-02-16 15:19:01 satamusic has joined
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2333 2011-02-16 15:19:01 satamusic has joined
2334 2011-02-16 15:19:20 <UukGoblin> nanotube, but he didn't put any underscores nor brackets!
2335 2011-02-16 15:19:28 <nanotube> citiz3n: ,,(bc,wiki gribble)
2336 2011-02-16 15:19:29 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Gribble | Feb 11, 2011 ... gribble is a modified Supybot IRC bot, carrying some useful bitcoin-related commands and factoids. The bot's command sequence is ';;' ...
2337 2011-02-16 15:19:30 <xelister> nanotube: seen graph?  Send TX in bitcoin so that you can not be tied to IP.  Totally hide fact that you are even watching freenet (receiving txes).  Even mine anonymously (but loose probably like 5-10% due to lag)
2338 2011-02-16 15:19:49 <nanotube> UukGoblin: yes, not in his input, but in resulting error output from his bad input. :)
2339 2011-02-16 15:20:01 <nanotube> ;;bc,prob 3042000 16h
2340 2011-02-16 15:20:02 <gribble> 0.791792526943
2341 2011-02-16 15:20:11 <nanotube> UukGoblin: --^ good input == good result :)
2342 2011-02-16 15:20:14 <UukGoblin> xelister, the non-purple BtcFn nodes can't really effectively generate... the delay is too high...
2343 2011-02-16 15:20:22 <nanotube> xelister: yea i saw - very nice
2344 2011-02-16 15:20:51 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,prob 3042000 16
2345 2011-02-16 15:20:52 <gribble> Error: There's really no reason why you should have underscores or brackets in your mathematical expression.  Please remove them.
2346 2011-02-16 15:21:00 <UukGoblin> ^^ bad input, bad error message
2347 2011-02-16 15:21:20 <nanotube> yea well, can't be arsed to fix that, since it's just an alias stringing together a bunch of commands.
2348 2011-02-16 15:21:23 <xelister> UukGoblin: Dunno.. it can be as good as 60 seconds
2349 2011-02-16 15:21:44 <nanotube> UukGoblin: just give it a 1-letter code for time units
2350 2011-02-16 15:21:47 <nanotube> and it'll be fine
2351 2011-02-16 15:22:03 <xelister> UukGoblin: also if you generate as gateway (purple), it is hard to prove did you got a block from other hidden generator in FN or other hidden generator in TOR, or did it yourself
2352 2011-02-16 15:22:20 <nanotube> xelister: ah good point, that. :)
2353 2011-02-16 15:22:21 sabalaba has joined
2354 2011-02-16 15:23:34 <UukGoblin> xelister, 60 seconds is quite a lot here
2355 2011-02-16 15:24:13 <xelister> UukGoblin: but ok :) to make geneators more possible, one should: start BtcFn node that would only publish blocks (mostly his block), perhaps allow inlining of a block for even faster download, and ask few FnBtc-Gateways to monitor him on high priority (perhaps pyaing some fee for that).  I blelive this can get us even like perhaps 15 seconds or so
2356 2011-02-16 15:25:02 <xelister> or just only publish inline own block.  then this info is really fast to push and download
2357 2011-02-16 15:25:22 <xelister> HOW ABOUT WE TEST IT ???? :D
2358 2011-02-16 15:25:56 <xelister> what forum thread would be best for bitcoin-over-freenet overall?
2359 2011-02-16 15:27:41 <UukGoblin> xelister, you're assuming people give a shit ;-]
2360 2011-02-16 15:27:56 <nanotube> xelister: bitcoin development probably
2361 2011-02-16 15:28:03 <citiz3n> nano
2362 2011-02-16 15:28:06 <xelister> UukGoblin: that would be most anon way to use bitcoin
2363 2011-02-16 15:28:11 <citiz3n> what's the probability for time period command
2364 2011-02-16 15:28:21 <sipa> what command?
2365 2011-02-16 15:28:23 <sipa> prob?
2366 2011-02-16 15:28:24 <nanotube> UukGoblin: well, i don't use freenet, but i give a shit. because if shit hits the fan, isp-blocking-wise... this would be great to have.
2367 2011-02-16 15:28:30 <sipa> ah, calc?
2368 2011-02-16 15:28:31 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 320000
2369 2011-02-16 15:28:32 <UukGoblin> yeah I was joking, surely people will be interested
2370 2011-02-16 15:28:32 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 320000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 4 days, 0 hours, 55 minutes, and 37 seconds
2371 2011-02-16 15:28:42 <citiz3n> not the calc one
2372 2011-02-16 15:28:43 <nanotube> citiz3n: bc,prob
2373 2011-02-16 15:28:48 <citiz3n> that's what i thought...
2374 2011-02-16 15:28:55 <nanotube> citiz3n: just have to give it units for time
2375 2011-02-16 15:28:58 <sipa> citiz3n: calc gives average time, which is the time corresponding to 100%*(1-1/e) chance
2376 2011-02-16 15:29:00 <nanotube> e.g. 16h for hours
2377 2011-02-16 15:29:05 <citiz3n> ;;bc,prob 3042000 16h
2378 2011-02-16 15:29:06 <gribble> 0.791792526943
2379 2011-02-16 15:29:12 <citiz3n> i was doing hr
2380 2011-02-16 15:29:12 <xelister> UukGoblin: if you would use also meta-tunnels there (pre-last chapter of specyfication) then I doubt even government would be able to track you
2381 2011-02-16 15:29:16 <citiz3n> haha
2382 2011-02-16 15:29:22 <xelister> unless they like microcamera your home totally, then yea
2383 2011-02-16 15:29:37 <xelister> *even using big resources
2384 2011-02-16 15:29:41 <citiz3n> 80% chance and i failed to create a block
2385 2011-02-16 15:29:42 <citiz3n> grrr
2386 2011-02-16 15:29:53 <nanotube> citiz3n: that's why it's 80%, not 100% :)
2387 2011-02-16 15:30:17 <xelister> http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-10-25/
2388 2011-02-16 15:30:52 <nanotube> xelister: hehe exactly
2389 2011-02-16 15:31:19 <nanotube> see also ,,(sl xkcd random number)
2390 2011-02-16 15:31:19 <gribble> http://xkcd.com/221/ | Protip: m.xkcd.com is a clean, mobile-friendly version of xkcd.com. ... {{title text: RFC 1149.5 specifies 4 as the standard IEEE-vetted random number.}} ...
2391 2011-02-16 15:31:39 <luke-jr_> genjix: nice, didn't know that existed
2392 2011-02-16 15:32:25 <luke-jr_> oh wait
2393 2011-02-16 15:32:29 <luke-jr_> that's just an example
2394 2011-02-16 15:32:39 <UukGoblin> the biggest problem we'll have will be when the government blocks the whole internet
2395 2011-02-16 15:32:45 <UukGoblin> and only allows whitelisted connections
2396 2011-02-16 15:33:03 <luke-jr_> genjix: dunno, personally I prefer tab format… easier to make :P
2397 2011-02-16 15:33:10 <sipa> at which time it will be called the interline
2398 2011-02-16 15:39:15 <comboy> quick question: how do I make bitcoind listen on specific IP?
2399 2011-02-16 15:40:10 davout has quit (Quit: i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net))
2400 2011-02-16 15:40:45 <sgornick> comboy: rpcport? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin
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2403 2011-02-16 15:41:21 bk128 has joined
2404 2011-02-16 15:41:26 <comboy> well I know how to set port
2405 2011-02-16 15:41:35 <comboy> what I'm asking is how to set IP on which it should listen
2406 2011-02-16 15:42:07 <sgornick> comboy: Oh, ... i.e., on a multihomed machine?
2407 2011-02-16 15:42:34 <comboy> yes, I have many intefaces up
2408 2011-02-16 15:42:37 <luke-jr_> eh
2409 2011-02-16 15:42:44 <luke-jr_> isn't the default localhost-only?
2410 2011-02-16 15:42:49 <comboy> it is
2411 2011-02-16 15:43:01 <comboy> and I'd like to change it, is it possible?
2412 2011-02-16 15:43:10 <luke-jr_> -rpcallowip ?
2413 2011-02-16 15:43:21 <comboy> oh, sounds good, let me check
2414 2011-02-16 15:44:37 <luke-jr_> oh wow
2415 2011-02-16 15:44:52 <luke-jr_> bitcoind's HTTP client isn't compliant
2416 2011-02-16 15:44:56 <luke-jr_>       << "Host: 127.0.0.1\r\n"
2417 2011-02-16 15:45:47 <luke-jr_> comboy: from the code, -rpcallowip's presense binds to the any-address instead of loopback
2418 2011-02-16 15:46:03 <comboy> yeah and the port is open now
2419 2011-02-16 15:46:04 <luke-jr_> so -rpcallowip <your-lan-ip> should work for that at least
2420 2011-02-16 15:46:06 <UukGoblin> xelister, someone will have to write the bitcoin-freenet proxy though, you realize ;-]
2421 2011-02-16 15:46:09 <comboy> but it closes connection right away :/
2422 2011-02-16 15:46:19 <luke-jr_> comboy: -rpcallowip *.*.*.* :p
2423 2011-02-16 15:46:36 <comboy> I tried 0.0.0.0 for testing, let me check
2424 2011-02-16 15:48:13 <comboy> indeed that's what I've been looking for, thanks a lot
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2426 2011-02-16 15:55:56 <xelister> UukGoblin: well yea someone have to implement BtcFn
2427 2011-02-16 15:56:08 <xelister> I estimate this 4 weeks, ~2000 BTC
2428 2011-02-16 15:56:38 <xelister> 4-6 weeks 1 developer + testing + several servers to test and run BtcFn nodes + some marketing + warranty
2429 2011-02-16 15:56:59 <UukGoblin> hrm
2430 2011-02-16 15:57:13 <UukGoblin> if I lose my job I'd be up for it if someone pays me ;-] not sure how long it would take though
2431 2011-02-16 15:57:24 <UukGoblin> but, it's unlikely I'll lose it ;-]
2432 2011-02-16 16:01:15 EvanR-work has quit (Changing host)
2433 2011-02-16 16:01:15 EvanR-work has joined
2434 2011-02-16 16:10:12 <afed> bitcoins
2435 2011-02-16 16:11:16 satamusic has joined
2436 2011-02-16 16:11:16 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
2437 2011-02-16 16:11:16 satamusic has joined
2438 2011-02-16 16:11:33 TD_ has joined
2439 2011-02-16 16:15:29 <hozer> I assume Bitcoin already does native ipv6?
2440 2011-02-16 16:15:45 <TD_> no
2441 2011-02-16 16:15:48 <TD_> sadly you assume wrong
2442 2011-02-16 16:15:51 <hozer> !!
2443 2011-02-16 16:15:54 <hozer> only v4?
2444 2011-02-16 16:15:57 TD_ is now known as TD2
2445 2011-02-16 16:15:58 <TD2> yes
2446 2011-02-16 16:15:59 <TD2> v4 only
2447 2011-02-16 16:16:05 <TD2> if you'd like to work on v6 support please do
2448 2011-02-16 16:16:13 <TD2> it's probably not that hard
2449 2011-02-16 16:16:32 glassresistor has joined
2450 2011-02-16 16:16:45 <hozer> hrrm, yeah... so I suppose I'll work that into my business model for a local foods vending machine with bitcoin payment options ;)
2451 2011-02-16 16:17:09 <dsg> All the protocol fields are wide enough for v6 addresses, but the current client is v4 only
2452 2011-02-16 16:17:39 <hozer> vending machine has a DNSsec name, resolves to IPv6 address, customer makes BTC payment from a smartphone to the vending machine over wifi or bluetooth
2453 2011-02-16 16:17:42 <glassresistor> hozer: wow thats cool, hows the vending machine gonna work?
2454 2011-02-16 16:18:08 <glassresistor> nm answered my question
2455 2011-02-16 16:18:16 <Kiba> boo ya!
2456 2011-02-16 16:18:17 <TD2> you don't need anything that complicated
2457 2011-02-16 16:18:22 <hozer> not sure yet, I need probably $5k (USD) or so to buy a vending machine that has en embedded linux controller in it
2458 2011-02-16 16:18:26 <glassresistor> i've been thinking about methods that let the spender stay off the net
2459 2011-02-16 16:18:28 <TD2> press a button
2460 2011-02-16 16:18:31 * Kiba finished work on a client project for today
2461 2011-02-16 16:18:35 <TD2> nfc adapter exposes a bitcoin address as a url
2462 2011-02-16 16:18:40 <TD2> phone is touched to nfc area
2463 2011-02-16 16:18:46 <bk128> you could prototype it without the vending machine :)
2464 2011-02-16 16:18:47 <TD2> bitcoin app opens, sends coins, payment is received, done
2465 2011-02-16 16:18:58 <hozer> hrrm .. what's 'nfc' ?
2466 2011-02-16 16:19:07 <TD2> near field communications
2467 2011-02-16 16:19:16 <glassresistor> TD2: what is an nfc?
2468 2011-02-16 16:19:17 <TD2> sort of like bluetooth but without all the security and overhead crap
2469 2011-02-16 16:19:18 <bk128> TD: wouldn't it take too long to confirm the payment?
2470 2011-02-16 16:19:23 satamusic_ has joined
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2472 2011-02-16 16:19:25 <TD2> vending machines don't need to wait for confirmation
2473 2011-02-16 16:19:37 <TD2> nfc is just "touch to communicate"
2474 2011-02-16 16:19:39 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2475 2011-02-16 16:19:43 <bk128> why?  couldn't people just send bad/ fake payments then?
2476 2011-02-16 16:19:44 <TD2> like badge readers, londons oyster card etc
2477 2011-02-16 16:19:54 <TD2> no. you can verify transactions that are not incorporated into a block
2478 2011-02-16 16:20:03 <bk128> ok
2479 2011-02-16 16:20:22 <TD2> there are some theoretical attacks you can do in that small window of time, but they are not worth it for small payments like in a vending machine
2480 2011-02-16 16:20:29 <TD2> hozer: you read the vending machine thread in the forum right ?
2481 2011-02-16 16:20:37 <hozer> no! I should...
2482 2011-02-16 16:20:40 <TD2> ah ha
2483 2011-02-16 16:20:44 <TD2> yes. it might be relevant :-)
2484 2011-02-16 16:20:48 <UukGoblin> TD2, you don't know poles! of course it's worth it!
2485 2011-02-16 16:21:02 <TD2> hozer: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=423.20
2486 2011-02-16 16:21:26 <UukGoblin> TD2, the only safe and quick way I can think of is to charge your vending-machine-accout beforehand and just use touch cards to identify yourself
2487 2011-02-16 16:22:37 <TD2> UukGoblin: not necessary. see the thread.
2488 2011-02-16 16:22:42 <TD2> you can do all payments via the usual network
2489 2011-02-16 16:22:49 <TD2> no need for wifi or bluetooth, both of which have "issues" in practice
2490 2011-02-16 16:22:51 <hozer> eh, I would just put a camera on the machine.. if someone is creative enough to hack/game the payment system, they can have a few free items
2491 2011-02-16 16:23:32 <hozer> if they keep doing it, then their picture gets posted on a 'wall of shame'
2492 2011-02-16 16:23:39 <glassresistor> why isn't anyone talking about building a cheap, device made with an arduino or a small linux embedded device that holds encrypted keeys, and whenn you want to spend btc you put in your password and the amount your spending and either over usb, wifi, or bt or some kind of card swipe and then the person takes the private keys and immediately transfers then from the cash machine account to storage account to keep from double spending
2493 2011-02-16 16:24:02 <TD2> because that's complicated, expensive and relies on hardware nobody has
2494 2011-02-16 16:24:15 <TD2> by the time bitcoin vending machines actually exist most people will have smartphones that support NFC
2495 2011-02-16 16:24:25 <TD2> and many already have phones that can read QRcodes
2496 2011-02-16 16:24:39 <glassresistor> TD2: thats probably true
2497 2011-02-16 16:24:39 <hozer> hrrm
2498 2011-02-16 16:24:42 <TD2> it's not quite as convenient imho and the vending machine would need a hi-res screen, increasing costs, but it can be done with the tech of today
2499 2011-02-16 16:24:44 <hozer> wait a sec
2500 2011-02-16 16:24:56 <hozer> what about just a camera on the machine & QRcode ?
2501 2011-02-16 16:25:29 <TD2> the phone has to learn the address the vending machine is waiting to receive coins on
2502 2011-02-16 16:25:38 <TD2> so the machine has to send data to the phone. not vice versa.
2503 2011-02-16 16:25:57 <glassresistor> i mean yeah the other option would be to print off paper qr codes from your home that are like dollar bills 1,5,10,20 etc. and you hand them over and then the vendor prints off another qr btc bill with your change on it
2504 2011-02-16 16:26:02 <hozer> hi-res screen is a requirement for my scheme anyway, because the machine needs to show where the food came from (pictures of the farm)
2505 2011-02-16 16:26:20 <UukGoblin> TD2, oh, interesting.
2506 2011-02-16 16:26:24 <sipa> glassresistor: showing a qr code is no guarantee that you haven't used it already
2507 2011-02-16 16:26:26 <UukGoblin> that would solve quite a lot more problems
2508 2011-02-16 16:26:36 <TD2> hozer: in that case it could work with todays hardware, assuming mobile apps are written
2509 2011-02-16 16:26:36 <TD2> w
2510 2011-02-16 16:26:40 <TD2> which will definitely happen this year
2511 2011-02-16 16:26:49 bitcoin_bonus is now known as help
2512 2011-02-16 16:27:17 <glassresistor> sipa: the vendor has to transfer it do themselves to keep from double spending, so that verifies its legit at the same time, and you don;t get your beer food etc. until that happens
2513 2011-02-16 16:27:19 help is now known as Guest37719
2514 2011-02-16 16:27:24 <UukGoblin> and yeah it'd be fun to have a phone that'd support NFC
2515 2011-02-16 16:27:33 <UukGoblin> put oyster and door cards on it
2516 2011-02-16 16:28:40 <glassresistor> i still think if btc is gonna be viable we have to setup means of transfer which don't require internet access, atleast on the buyer side, and maybe eventually on either side
2517 2011-02-16 16:29:57 <TD2> why?
2518 2011-02-16 16:30:04 <UukGoblin> glassresistor, there could be banks that print paper bitcoins
2519 2011-02-16 16:30:06 <TD2> bitcoin is an internet based currency
2520 2011-02-16 16:30:28 <UukGoblin> "Promise to pay the bearer on demand the amount of 10 (ten) bitcoins" kinda notes
2521 2011-02-16 16:30:43 <hozer> UukGoblin: yeah.. you could do the same with local currencies
2522 2011-02-16 16:31:05 <UukGoblin> hozer, except local currencies suck and bitcoin doesn't
2523 2011-02-16 16:31:16 <hozer> UukGoblin: why, have you ever used one?
2524 2011-02-16 16:31:20 <UukGoblin> although... hm... local currencies might be better for small communities in some cases I guess...
2525 2011-02-16 16:31:27 <UukGoblin> not really
2526 2011-02-16 16:31:40 <hozer> I would say it wouldn't suck if you could exchange the local printed currency for BTC easily
2527 2011-02-16 16:31:57 <UukGoblin> that's up to the local community to provide an exchange facility
2528 2011-02-16 16:32:18 <UukGoblin> I'm not exactly sure what the point of local currency is, if people have bitcoin
2529 2011-02-16 16:32:46 <hozer> BTC is inherently global ... local currency prefers the local economy
2530 2011-02-16 16:34:16 <hozer> Let's suppose I invest in a 1MW wind turbine, and enough miners to use all that power... When I start them all up, it could impact the global BTC exchange rates
2531 2011-02-16 16:34:44 <glassresistor> UukGoblin: local currencies are good in some ways and bad in others
2532 2011-02-16 16:35:14 <hozer> someone does something stupid in another country, and the BTC exchange rates react... The local currencies are more resilent to market distruptions
2533 2011-02-16 16:35:30 <glassresistor> TD2: because people want to spend money when they don;t have the net, and people only one to deal with one kind of currency
2534 2011-02-16 16:35:48 <UukGoblin> hozer, yeah, makes sense, in a way
2535 2011-02-16 16:36:50 <hozer> the global commodities market for corn is really good for me right now (I'm getting into farming), but in 2 or 3 years, who knows
2536 2011-02-16 16:37:31 <hozer> I know there will always be local people who want to eat good food, so having some of my farm product going into a local market with local currency helps me hedge future volatility
2537 2011-02-16 16:37:38 <glassresistor> UukGoblin: i'd rather remove banks from the picture though if possible
2538 2011-02-16 16:37:42 <bk128> hozer: people won't be mining forever.   and things will stabilize as the market expands
2539 2011-02-16 16:37:54 TD2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2540 2011-02-16 16:38:17 <jaromil> genjix: not yet pinged caedes on it, i didn't met him
2541 2011-02-16 16:38:19 TD_ has joined
2542 2011-02-16 16:38:23 <glassresistor> bk128: yeah sure but until then people in this room are gonna cash in, and that is what will eventually make this currency have value
2543 2011-02-16 16:38:36 <glassresistor> damn speculators helping stabilize value
2544 2011-02-16 16:39:19 <bk128> once I start generating I'm probably going to cash half (if I can) and save half
2545 2011-02-16 16:39:47 <hozer> glassresistor: some (small) banks have value ;)
2546 2011-02-16 16:40:24 <hozer> I applied for a systematic trading position at Citibank, but apparently they only want people that have 'banking' experience
2547 2011-02-16 16:41:02 <hozer> so now I figure screw them, I will write an open-source systematic trading system for BTC exchanges eventually ;)
2548 2011-02-16 16:45:23 <UukGoblin> bk128, people probably will be mining until the internet dies, which is pretty much 'forever' to me
2549 2011-02-16 16:45:31 <UukGoblin> glassresistor, banks that can't easily cheat? why not...
2550 2011-02-16 16:45:53 <UukGoblin> glassresistor, and there would always be /choice/
2551 2011-02-16 16:47:38 <bk128> UukGoblin: internet will die in 2033? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
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2556 2011-02-16 16:49:16 <UukGoblin> bk128, transaction fees
2557 2011-02-16 16:49:24 <UukGoblin> bk128, oh by 'mining' I mean 'generate blocks'
2558 2011-02-16 16:49:41 <UukGoblin> btw that wikipedia image should read "target total bitcoins over time"
2559 2011-02-16 16:49:45 <UukGoblin> or "estimate"
2560 2011-02-16 16:49:52 <bk128> is it accurate now?
2561 2011-02-16 16:49:54 <UukGoblin> there will actually be more than it shows
2562 2011-02-16 16:49:58 <UukGoblin> nope
2563 2011-02-16 16:50:08 <UukGoblin> because the network keeps growing, there's more than there should be
2564 2011-02-16 16:52:17 <bk128> but there can still only be 21 million?
2565 2011-02-16 16:52:28 <echelon> yes
2566 2011-02-16 16:57:58 <mbarkhau> is there a way to approximate the number of lost bitcoins?
2567 2011-02-16 16:58:14 <mbarkhau> age since last transaction or something
2568 2011-02-16 16:58:41 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2569 2011-02-16 16:58:46 <BlueMatt> mbarkhau: I believe I've heard that over 50% of bitcoins generated have never been spent
2570 2011-02-16 17:00:22 <mbarkhau> k, thx
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2572 2011-02-16 17:01:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: that is correct
2573 2011-02-16 17:02:22 <BlueMatt> mbarkhau: though the amount not spent (specifically lost because its some "worthless" currency and people delete their wallets) should go down quick now that its at parity and it is becoming harder to generate
2574 2011-02-16 17:03:00 <hozer> now... is there a way to 'mine' for things that have never been spent?
2575 2011-02-16 17:03:52 <hozer> this would actually resolve a theoretical problem I have with most currencies about hoarding
2576 2011-02-16 17:04:16 <BlueMatt> hozer: technically, yes, though it is several thousands of times more efficient to mine normally
2577 2011-02-16 17:04:37 <hozer> if you try to stash bitcoins in an account forever and never use them, someone with a lot of spare cpu will 'mine' them from you
2578 2011-02-16 17:05:26 <BlueMatt> hozer: No you cant, really you'd have to brute force their private/public key pair and that is incredibly hard (several thousands of years on a supercomputer)
2579 2011-02-16 17:05:57 mtgox has joined
2580 2011-02-16 17:06:01 <hozer> hrrm
2581 2011-02-16 17:06:05 <sipa> generated coins are assigned to a public key (256 bits)
2582 2011-02-16 17:06:16 <sipa> transferred coins are assigned to an address (160 bits)
2583 2011-02-16 17:06:17 <hozer> BlueMatt: Oh, because there's already a generate in the block chain for that coin
2584 2011-02-16 17:06:40 <sipa> neither is something you want to bruteforce
2585 2011-02-16 17:06:44 <UukGoblin> hrm, I'm always spending the generated coins... I transfer them to a master account instantly
2586 2011-02-16 17:06:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: yep
2587 2011-02-16 17:06:55 <UukGoblin> doesn't mean I'm really /spending/ them on stuff
2588 2011-02-16 17:07:01 <sipa> yes
2589 2011-02-16 17:07:10 <sipa> but the network can't see the difference
2590 2011-02-16 17:07:13 <UukGoblin> yeah
2591 2011-02-16 17:07:15 <sipa> and neither should it
2592 2011-02-16 17:07:31 <UukGoblin> the correct way to estimate it is to run a poll
2593 2011-02-16 17:07:35 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: why? it takes away some anonymity and you can just keep it in your wallet anyway
2594 2011-02-16 17:07:47 <hozer> okay. So what of 'lost' coins? (deleted wallets)
2595 2011-02-16 17:07:56 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, I know, it's mostly for convenience... once I set up tor and shit I'll change it
2596 2011-02-16 17:08:02 <sipa> hozer: there is absolutely no way of knowing those
2597 2011-02-16 17:08:12 Worf has joined
2598 2011-02-16 17:08:26 <sipa> it's either people not wanting to spend their coins, or not in the possibility anymore of spending them
2599 2011-02-16 17:09:31 <hozer> sipa: I have an intuition that in currency design it's important that there be an incentive to spend a coin at least once a year or it expires (or can be re-mined) .. the spend could just be what UuKGoblin does
2600 2011-02-16 17:09:55 <sipa> i don't share that intuition :)
2601 2011-02-16 17:10:57 <hozer> well, the wonderful thing about open-source is I can fork bitcoin and have an alternative currency which implements this, and let the market decide ;)
2602 2011-02-16 17:10:57 RichardG has joined
2603 2011-02-16 17:12:19 <UukGoblin> I don't share that intuition either
2604 2011-02-16 17:12:24 <RichardG> anyone got suggestions on improving my paper? http://goput.it/str/h7a.pdf
2605 2011-02-16 17:12:31 <UukGoblin> I don't have to prove my bitcoins to anyone
2606 2011-02-16 17:12:52 <UukGoblin> I can be on holidays for 3 years and I don't want to worry that my bitcoins will be lost
2607 2011-02-16 17:13:33 <hozer> well, what if the exchange rate goes nuts because people panic and try to cash all their bitcoins for gold or euros or corn 1.5 years into your holiday?
2608 2011-02-16 17:13:43 <sipa> too bad for you
2609 2011-02-16 17:14:01 <hozer> You still have your bitcoins, but they are worthless because too many people decided to hold their coins for 5 years
2610 2011-02-16 17:14:15 <genjix> hey luke-jr_
2611 2011-02-16 17:14:24 * genjix pokes luke-jr_ luke-jr_ luke-jr_ ^^
2612 2011-02-16 17:14:24 <luke-jr_> hi
2613 2011-02-16 17:14:28 <genjix> :)
2614 2011-02-16 17:14:48 luke-jr_ is now known as luke-jr
2615 2011-02-16 17:14:53 <hozer> that's why I think proving (to the network at least) the total number of coins available vs current amount being spent in circulation is important
2616 2011-02-16 17:15:11 <genjix> the coding style thing... i just try to be consistent with everybody else (I'm not too anal or religious over it)
2617 2011-02-16 17:15:28 <genjix> so I picked the python PSEP style since it's the python way and use that
2618 2011-02-16 17:15:36 <luke-jr> lol
2619 2011-02-16 17:15:42 <luke-jr> I just tried to be consistent with you :P
2620 2011-02-16 17:15:59 <genjix> yep I noticed that
2621 2011-02-16 17:16:11 <luke-jr> btw, PSEP seems to allow for tabs :p
2622 2011-02-16 17:16:13 <genjix> especially having the unit test style settings.py which functions on it's own.
2623 2011-02-16 17:16:20 <genjix> I liked that
2624 2011-02-16 17:16:29 <luke-jr> yeah, no other way to get settings yet
2625 2011-02-16 17:16:30 <RichardG> genjix: pastecoin is down
2626 2011-02-16 17:16:33 <luke-jr> other than first run
2627 2011-02-16 17:16:48 <genjix> RichardG: i sold pastecoin to jgarzik and he's taken it down & left it down
2628 2011-02-16 17:16:49 <RichardG> my guess is dead httpd
2629 2011-02-16 17:16:53 <RichardG> oh.
2630 2011-02-16 17:17:01 <RichardG> any other alternative for file<->bitcoin trading
2631 2011-02-16 17:17:01 <luke-jr> genjix: you mean it wasn't intentional to have send.py run by itself? :P
2632 2011-02-16 17:17:03 <genjix> luke-jr: add it to right click money in systray
2633 2011-02-16 17:17:12 <genjix> no it was intentional
2634 2011-02-16 17:17:23 <luke-jr> genjix: if it's accessible like that, then people will expect changes to take effect immediately
2635 2011-02-16 17:17:29 <luke-jr> I didn't write code for that yet :D
2636 2011-02-16 17:17:30 <genjix> also notice that send.py dialog is non modal dialog
2637 2011-02-16 17:17:56 <genjix> luke-jr: http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/blobs/master/settings.py
2638 2011-02-16 17:18:07 <genjix> the camel case variable names
2639 2011-02-16 17:18:11 <genjix> cbInternal
2640 2011-02-16 17:18:11 <genjix> .etc
2641 2011-02-16 17:18:14 <luke-jr> oh
2642 2011-02-16 17:18:19 <luke-jr> camel ftw? :P
2643 2011-02-16 17:18:24 <genjix> loadSettings -> load_settings
2644 2011-02-16 17:18:34 <luke-jr> go ahead and change it if you want I guess
2645 2011-02-16 17:18:42 <genjix> yeah well i was conflicted... use recommended python style or use Qt style
2646 2011-02-16 17:18:49 <genjix> i just picked one and ran with it :p
2647 2011-02-16 17:18:56 <luke-jr> I only used Python because you did :P
2648 2011-02-16 17:18:58 <luke-jr> I hate python
2649 2011-02-16 17:19:24 <genjix> you will grow to love it over time
2650 2011-02-16 17:19:28 <luke-jr> nope
2651 2011-02-16 17:19:28 <genjix> i will make sure of that
2652 2011-02-16 17:19:30 <genjix> HAHAHAHA
2653 2011-02-16 17:19:31 <luke-jr> I already love Perl.
2654 2011-02-16 17:19:35 <genjix> nooo
2655 2011-02-16 17:19:43 <genjix> 393jtm3443##';#;43#;43./.,/.,./,./,
2656 2011-02-16 17:19:48 <genjix> imma master perl coder
2657 2011-02-16 17:20:04 <luke-jr> syntax error at -e line 1, near "393jtm3443##
2658 2011-02-16 17:21:16 <genjix> i am like one of those diehard followers that would self-sacrifice in the perl-python 100 years war.
2659 2011-02-16 17:21:27 <genjix> that's how much i love py
2660 2011-02-16 17:22:23 <genjix> how comes you don't like python? I'm curious- is it forced indentation? one way to do things? ...
2661 2011-02-16 17:22:28 <genjix> :)
2662 2011-02-16 17:22:49 <luke-jr> I don't know.
2663 2011-02-16 17:23:08 <luke-jr> maybe the indentation plus _between_every_word_nonsense plus ⁇?
2664 2011-02-16 17:23:14 <luke-jr> I just know it gives me a headache to work with
2665 2011-02-16 17:23:30 <luke-jr> the spaces are probably part of it
2666 2011-02-16 17:23:43 gavinandresen has joined
2667 2011-02-16 17:24:39 <genjix> hey gavinandresen
2668 2011-02-16 17:24:47 <gavinandresen> hey genjix
2669 2011-02-16 17:24:49 <genjix> i looked over your slides and was chuckling
2670 2011-02-16 17:24:59 <genjix> then i saw your video
2671 2011-02-16 17:25:24 <gavinandresen> I got cheated out of 15 seconds!
2672 2011-02-16 17:25:49 <RichardG> if I  got no suggestions, my presentation on why do people not care about bitcoin can be considered finished
2673 2011-02-16 17:26:04 <genjix> you did well using your good sense of humour. and your audience was great too.
2674 2011-02-16 17:26:18 <genjix> loved it.
2675 2011-02-16 17:27:00 <gavinandresen> Yeah, it was a good event.  Video of the whole thing is up, but I felt a little bit like an odd duck-- hard-core techno cybercurrency mixed in with touchy-feely "I'm going to make underwear out of sustainably harvested free-range straw" types of things.
2676 2011-02-16 17:28:09 <genjix> ^^ revel in your techno anarchist leanings with pride. think of yourself as the edgy cyberpunk rebel.
2677 2011-02-16 17:28:16 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: genjix and I are overthrowing your wx empire
2678 2011-02-16 17:28:24 <genjix> (don't forget the lycra suit jajajaja)
2679 2011-02-16 17:28:31 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  "my" wx empire?
2680 2011-02-16 17:28:35 <luke-jr> :P
2681 2011-02-16 17:28:49 <gavinandresen> (I don't know nuthin bout wxwidgets... cept it's huge and hard to compile sometimes)
2682 2011-02-16 17:28:54 <genjix> you make it sound like bitcoin is a destroyer ship
2683 2011-02-16 17:28:56 <jgarzik> hehe
2684 2011-02-16 17:29:08 <genjix> 'death-star'
2685 2011-02-16 17:29:44 <jgarzik> if official client was whittled down to a daemon, with modern UIs built on a completely separate codebase...  I wouldn't complain
2686 2011-02-16 17:29:49 <luke-jr> too bad we depend on bitcoind which still makes tonal impossible -.-
2687 2011-02-16 17:29:51 nathan7 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2688 2011-02-16 17:30:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I'm experimenting with a different DoS fix-- a little lower level...
2689 2011-02-16 17:30:07 <genjix> luke-jr: how's it impossible?
2690 2011-02-16 17:30:08 <luke-jr> but I'm working on a patch that implements the consensus solution
2691 2011-02-16 17:30:19 <luke-jr> genjix: bitcoind today lacks base unit precision
2692 2011-02-16 17:30:20 <genjix> change core_interface.py to convert the values internally
2693 2011-02-16 17:30:41 <luke-jr> genjix: bitcoind will round
2694 2011-02-16 17:31:00 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: nothing wrong with dropping misbehaving connections
2695 2011-02-16 17:31:09 bitme has joined
2696 2011-02-16 17:31:19 <bitme> helloo
2697 2011-02-16 17:31:38 <gavinandresen> Yup.  I'm experimenting with "if send buffer OR receive buffer backs up too much, drop the connection."
2698 2011-02-16 17:31:57 <gavinandresen> Should be a good "if you don't play nice, I won't talk to you" generic type of fix.
2699 2011-02-16 17:32:20 <bitme> yo is anyone mining with two 5790s?  areyou getting a block everyday?
2700 2011-02-16 17:32:31 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: agreed
2701 2011-02-16 17:32:43 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 1300000 1d
2702 2011-02-16 17:32:44 <gribble> 0.634288461943
2703 2011-02-16 17:32:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: simple is always better
2704 2011-02-16 17:32:53 <gavinandresen> Danger is that as bitcoin scales slow nodes won't be able to stay connected.  But that'll be true in any case.
2705 2011-02-16 17:33:12 mmarker has joined
2706 2011-02-16 17:33:24 <sipa> bitme: only 63% chance to find (at least one) block during a given day with 1.3GH/s (which is 2 ATI 5970's at 650MH/s)
2707 2011-02-16 17:33:30 <bitme> oops wrong chan sorry
2708 2011-02-16 17:33:33 bitme has left ()
2709 2011-02-16 17:33:33 <gavinandresen> Default for maxconnections seems like a really good idea, too, just as a preventative measure
2710 2011-02-16 17:33:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ...well, far slower than network send rate, at any rate.   Additionally, I think we should consider shipping with maxconnections==500 or a similarly sane limit.
2711 2011-02-16 17:33:49 <foucist> gavinandresen: what are these nodes?  clients/miners?
2712 2011-02-16 17:33:58 <gavinandresen> I was thinking maxconnections=150 should be plenty
2713 2011-02-16 17:34:11 <BlueMatt> foucist: clients (to which miners can connect but are not nodes)
2714 2011-02-16 17:34:43 <genjix> MT`AwAy: RSA is too slow. Can I s/rsa/aes/ and everything will work fine?
2715 2011-02-16 17:35:05 nathan7 has joined
2716 2011-02-16 17:35:41 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: even better
2717 2011-02-16 17:35:48 <foucist> ;;bc,calc 1200000
2718 2011-02-16 17:35:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 day, 1 hour, 50 minutes, and 50 seconds
2719 2011-02-16 17:35:50 <mmarker> Ok. I may be on crack here. Looking at writing a bitcoin wallet for Android. It doesn't need to mine, just do the basics to make transactions. How much of bitcoin do I need to get working? (E.g. p2p connections, parsing blocks, etc.)
2720 2011-02-16 17:35:55 * jgarzik was trying to be generous, but likes the lower limit
2721 2011-02-16 17:36:55 <BlueMatt> mmarker p2p network, block parsing (and not necessarily required, but very recommended) checking, wallet if you want to do anything useful
2722 2011-02-16 17:37:15 <mmarker> Gotcha
2723 2011-02-16 17:37:36 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I'll make the flood control max sizes configurable-- what's standard these days, specify size in bytes or K  or M?  (and no, luke-jr, I'm not going to implement a parser that allows arbitrary units.  No KiloTonal bytes for buffer sizes).
2724 2011-02-16 17:38:11 <mmarker> I have a feeling the source is still the de facto standard for any protocol?
2725 2011-02-16 17:38:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: <shrug>  I would pick K for people who wish <1M limit?
2726 2011-02-16 17:38:19 <BlueMatt> mmarker: though its probably not a good idea to do it on a cell network as it would take alot of cpu and network bandwidth which isn't great on a phone
2727 2011-02-16 17:38:28 <BlueMatt> mmarker: yes on the source
2728 2011-02-16 17:38:36 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: Ki ;)
2729 2011-02-16 17:39:41 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: testing a 'normal' block chain download, receive buffer on my mac got up close to 1megabyte  (I'll try a default receive buffer max of 2MB, send 1MB)
2730 2011-02-16 17:39:45 <genjix> 1024 has been replaced by 1000
2731 2011-02-16 17:39:47 <luke-jr> 128 KiB = 1 Tonal blok
2732 2011-02-16 17:39:50 <mmarker> BlueMatt: how bad is the be requirement...and CPU as well...do you have to do a buttton of hashing to get a transaction out there?
2733 2011-02-16 17:40:05 <mmarker> The bitcoin paper was a little light on that
2734 2011-02-16 17:40:29 <mmarker> Err. Bandwidth. Foiled by autocomplete.
2735 2011-02-16 17:41:12 <BlueMatt> mmarker: it could take a while to dl the block chain and check it the first time, thereafter maybe not too much, but I wouldnt recommend a p2p network on a cell phone, not necessarily because of bandwidth (though thats part of it), but because of the network load it creates when the number of connections grows
2736 2011-02-16 17:41:20 <luke-jr> 2 MiB = 1 Tonal ton-blok
2737 2011-02-16 17:41:21 <BlueMatt> mmarker: or maybe limit the number of connections dramatically
2738 2011-02-16 17:41:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: TCP RCVBUF on Linux is 131071 bytes, FWIW
2739 2011-02-16 17:41:59 <gavinandresen> yeah, but what's that in tonal....  (KIDDING, I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW)
2740 2011-02-16 17:42:07 <jgarzik> rofl
2741 2011-02-16 17:42:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 1 blok - 1 blok-bong
2742 2011-02-16 17:42:33 <mmarker> Bluematt: my plan was to use wifi to get a was of blocks...then just plug into the network when you need to fetch blocks or every 4 hours.
2743 2011-02-16 17:43:02 <mmarker> And keep number of connections to a minimum
2744 2011-02-16 17:43:03 <luke-jr> or 1 Bᵇ
2745 2011-02-16 17:43:17 <jgarzik> I think stoners invented tonal
2746 2011-02-16 17:43:27 <BlueMatt> mmarker: not terrible, but it would still be simpler and more sensible to use rpc (I'd say), and also what about creating new addresses/moving wallet which happens just about every time you make a transaction
2747 2011-02-16 17:43:45 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I don't think stoners existed back then
2748 2011-02-16 17:44:53 <mmarker> Bluematt: rpc would make sense...but I want to avoid the need for people to have one running somewhere. Trying to target the semi-newbies with this...
2749 2011-02-16 17:45:34 <BlueMatt> mmarker: makes sense though do any of the online wallet servers allow rpc?
2750 2011-02-16 17:45:42 <BlueMatt> that should allow noobs
2751 2011-02-16 17:46:03 <mmarker> Good compromise
2752 2011-02-16 17:46:18 <mmarker> I may have to look at that
2753 2011-02-16 17:47:09 <BlueMatt> mmarker:also look at http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
2754 2011-02-16 17:47:30 <BlueMatt> mmarker an good existing standard you might want to adhere to for transactions
2755 2011-02-16 17:47:52 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  http://codepad.org/kCcgshDB
2756 2011-02-16 17:48:17 <gavinandresen> whoops, I already see a bug...
2757 2011-02-16 17:48:50 <mmarker> Oh. Oh. Qcode?
2758 2011-02-16 17:49:06 <BlueMatt> mmarker yea not a bad idea if you ask me, any better ones?
2759 2011-02-16 17:50:50 bitcoiner has joined
2760 2011-02-16 17:50:59 <mmarker> No. I would make it a more standard URI format
2761 2011-02-16 17:51:09 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
2762 2011-02-16 17:51:36 <BlueMatt> mmarker but a qr code would be better for a pos system, because you can just take a picture and transfer funds w/o typing in an address and amount
2763 2011-02-16 17:51:49 <mmarker> So I can register it in android...so you can use the barcode scanner ans then fire off the right program
2764 2011-02-16 17:52:06 <mmarker> So more like: bitcoin://
2765 2011-02-16 17:52:15 <mmarker> Unless I read the URI spec wrong
2766 2011-02-16 17:53:02 <BlueMatt> mmarker: great so instead of bitcoin:18pnDgDYFMAKsHTA3ZqyAi6t8q9ztaWWXt, usd bitcoin://18pnDgDYFMAKsHTA3ZqyAi6t8q9ztaWWXt and the other examples from the site (I'd say keep it as compatable as possible, even if it is uri instead of qr codes)
2767 2011-02-16 17:53:30 <mmarker> Yea. Let me check the android docs
2768 2011-02-16 17:53:51 nathan7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2769 2011-02-16 17:56:20 <BlueMatt> mmarker: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme
2770 2011-02-16 17:56:39 <gavinandresen> More better proposed DoS prevention fix:  http://codepad.org/oESpDBEa
2771 2011-02-16 17:56:49 nathan7 has joined
2772 2011-02-16 17:58:09 <mmarker> We can do that.
2773 2011-02-16 17:58:29 <mmarker> Looking at the code. You can encode thebURI as text in QR Code
2774 2011-02-16 17:58:39 <mmarker> And android should just do the right thing
2775 2011-02-16 17:58:48 <BlueMatt> mmarker great
2776 2011-02-16 17:59:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it is strange to check nPos first, before recv(2), but then no checks after recv(2)
2777 2011-02-16 17:59:35 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: recv(2) is when data enters, so it seems logical the check should follow recv(2) to cover all incoming-data cases?
2778 2011-02-16 17:59:52 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2779 2011-02-16 17:59:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: my logic was:  it is ok to receive a bunch of stuff as long as you can process it fast enough.
2780 2011-02-16 18:00:32 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  ... so checking to see if the buffer is over-full AFTER coming out of the message-handling loop once (and having a chance to drain the buffer) seemed like the best thing to do.
2781 2011-02-16 18:00:39 prax has joined
2782 2011-02-16 18:01:50 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: either-or.  Let's call you a "glass half full" type of person ;-)
2783 2011-02-16 18:02:28 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  yeah, I actually had it on the other side of the recv first....
2784 2011-02-16 18:03:20 <foucist> is there any attempt to make a bitcoin miner that works by JS only?
2785 2011-02-16 18:03:31 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: with OS buffer size around 128k on Linux and 64k on Windows, you're already processing very slowly if we reach really high vRecv sizes
2786 2011-02-16 18:03:38 <jgarzik> "you" == bitcoind
2787 2011-02-16 18:03:58 <BlueMatt> foucist: I saw it mentioned on the forum, though I don't think it went anywhere...and using people's cpu power for your own money might be illigal
2788 2011-02-16 18:04:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so receive will get throttled by OS pretty early
2789 2011-02-16 18:04:51 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: hmm?  the message processing is done is a separate thread unless I'm misreading the code....
2790 2011-02-16 18:05:33 <phantomcircuit> lol
2791 2011-02-16 18:05:38 <phantomcircuit> the patch is actually pretty simple
2792 2011-02-16 18:05:43 <foucist> BlueMatt: well it'd have to be a non-obnoxious bit of JS, avoid slowing down the computer ..  i doubt it'd be illegal since many websites have js scripts that run in the background anyways, ajax and the like
2793 2011-02-16 18:05:45 <phantomcircuit> remove the buffering in vSend
2794 2011-02-16 18:05:51 <phantomcircuit> magic
2795 2011-02-16 18:05:51 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2796 2011-02-16 18:06:12 <BlueMatt> foucist: OK illigal maybe not so much, but immoral-very
2797 2011-02-16 18:06:17 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2798 2011-02-16 18:06:58 bk128 has joined
2799 2011-02-16 18:06:58 bk128 has quit (Changing host)
2800 2011-02-16 18:06:58 bk128 has joined
2801 2011-02-16 18:08:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yep, that's correct, msg proc in separate thread.  but recall that ThreadMessageHandler() has this incredibly stupid poll-for-work logic.  So you might only get $OS_SIZE bytes per interation in several cases.   ANYWAY, concerns about vRecv are far below vSend, which presents the more critical issue...
2802 2011-02-16 18:08:50 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2803 2011-02-16 18:09:21 carnage_ has joined
2804 2011-02-16 18:09:28 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  I don't get your "remove the buffering from vSend".   vSend is buffered because it is used to move data from one thread to the thread that actually sends the bytes to the network.
2805 2011-02-16 18:09:54 <gavinandresen> (or am I misunderstanding which level of buffering you're talking about)
2806 2011-02-16 18:10:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: OS socket buffer also exists...
2807 2011-02-16 18:10:16 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: many TCP servers don't buffer writes at all, because OS already does that
2808 2011-02-16 18:10:58 <gavinandresen> Right, but the DoS works by exhausting the thread-to-thread buffer that CDataStream does.
2809 2011-02-16 18:11:55 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: phantomcircuit's point is that you don't necessarily need vSend at all, due to OS socket buffer.  bitcoin could just write directly to socket.
2810 2011-02-16 18:12:51 chmod755 has joined
2811 2011-02-16 18:12:53 <gavinandresen> Uh-huh...  and that'll work on all the brain-dead OSes that bitcoin runs on?
2812 2011-02-16 18:12:54 chmod755 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2813 2011-02-16 18:12:58 <jgarzik> of course, that opens a few -new- issues, if vSend is eliminated completely, in the case where SNDBUF bytes are requested in one run
2814 2011-02-16 18:13:09 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
2815 2011-02-16 18:13:10 <bitcoiner> nice talk at ignite gavin
2816 2011-02-16 18:13:20 <gavinandresen> bitcoiner: thanks!
2817 2011-02-16 18:13:23 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yes, but
2818 2011-02-16 18:13:26 <BlueMatt> bitcoiner: link?
2819 2011-02-16 18:13:31 <ArtForz> fix isnt *exactly* trivial
2820 2011-02-16 18:13:33 chmod755 has joined
2821 2011-02-16 18:14:14 <ArtForz> you still have a possible massive bandwidth amplification attack
2822 2011-02-16 18:14:27 <gavinandresen> ArtForz:  you been listening in?  I'm proposing dropping connections that look like they're trying to DoS flood, either send-side or receive side.
2823 2011-02-16 18:14:44 <ArtForz> I've been doing that for quite a while
2824 2011-02-16 18:14:45 <JFK911> ok this is good
2825 2011-02-16 18:14:48 <JFK911> i got 2 blocks today
2826 2011-02-16 18:14:51 <ArtForz> also, rate limit per-node send ;)
2827 2011-02-16 18:15:00 <JFK911> Also flashed 5550 now getting 75kkhash/sec
2828 2011-02-16 18:15:15 <gavinandresen> ArtForz:  you willing to submit some patches?  I really shouldn't be writing networking code......
2829 2011-02-16 18:15:23 <bitcoiner> http://blip.tv/file/4771178
2830 2011-02-16 18:15:27 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: FWIW, I'm __not__ arguing against your patch.  Just explaining phantomcircuit's comment in more detail.  You are moving in the right direction with vRecv/vSend limits.
2831 2011-02-16 18:15:36 <ArtForz> yea
2832 2011-02-16 18:15:58 <ArtForz> I limit vSend to 256kB per node here
2833 2011-02-16 18:16:25 <ArtForz> exceed that and it simply closes
2834 2011-02-16 18:17:38 slush1 has joined
2835 2011-02-16 18:17:52 <glassresistor> anyone here know who owns bitcoin market, im trying to cancel a transaction before the 10 day limit, but im not getting a response from him, is he in the channel right now?
2836 2011-02-16 18:17:57 <glassresistor> or her
2837 2011-02-16 18:18:01 * glassresistor stupid sexist
2838 2011-02-16 18:18:10 <jgarzik> glassresistor: dwdollar / dwdollar1
2839 2011-02-16 18:18:26 <ArtForz> *512kB
2840 2011-02-16 18:23:22 <bitcoiner> paypal closed my account !
2841 2011-02-16 18:23:27 <bitcoiner> go BITCOINS !
2842 2011-02-16 18:25:46 dishwara has joined
2843 2011-02-16 18:27:03 <Zarutian> bitcoiner: was anything in it?
2844 2011-02-16 18:28:07 <bitcoiner> of course! but not that much 200 €
2845 2011-02-16 18:28:30 <bitcoiner> but now they f up my micro business
2846 2011-02-16 18:28:41 <bitcoiner> all that because of a fraudulent charge back
2847 2011-02-16 18:29:39 <Zarutian> bitcoiner: what kind of business? software?
2848 2011-02-16 18:29:42 <bitcoiner> thats one of the reason I like bitcoin no charge back...
2849 2011-02-16 18:30:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: patch looks sane
2850 2011-02-16 18:30:12 <bitcoiner> nah I was selling lines on my website
2851 2011-02-16 18:30:18 <jgarzik> lines?
2852 2011-02-16 18:30:30 <jgarzik> line of credit?
2853 2011-02-16 18:30:36 <bitcoiner> well website "space"
2854 2011-02-16 18:30:49 <Zarutian> you mean like advert banners?
2855 2011-02-16 18:30:53 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I'm running/testing with low maxreceive/send buffers, want to make sure disconnections don't cause problems.
2856 2011-02-16 18:30:57 <bitcoiner> yeah kinda
2857 2011-02-16 18:31:06 <Zarutian> but text only?
2858 2011-02-16 18:31:17 <bitcoiner> yes
2859 2011-02-16 18:31:29 <bitcoiner> people paid to have their game code on the site
2860 2011-02-16 18:31:49 <bitcoiner> but then I sold virtual goods for 200€ and got scam
2861 2011-02-16 18:32:13 <Zarutian> I hope you kept track who paid for what space and just revoke the offenders line
2862 2011-02-16 18:32:37 <bitcoiner> yeah I never had problem with the site its because of that virtual good trade I was not aware of chargeback
2863 2011-02-16 18:33:03 <bitcoiner> thats the only thing that bug me the same thing can happen if u trade bitcoins via paypal
2864 2011-02-16 18:34:03 <bitcoiner> I wonder if a physical bitcoin exchange could be legal/possible
2865 2011-02-16 18:34:08 <UukGoblin> bitcoin: safer, faster, easier
2866 2011-02-16 18:35:10 <Zarutian> bitcoiner: possible yes, legal? who knows? there are too many inconsitant laws. (If you are an USA citizen then you are breaking at least three federal laws right now without know it)
2867 2011-02-16 18:35:31 <bitcoiner> which one ?
2868 2011-02-16 18:35:37 rli has left ()
2869 2011-02-16 18:35:55 <BlueMatt> Zarutain: thats unclear I havn't heard a lawyer comment yet, just some unresolved discussions
2870 2011-02-16 18:36:03 <Zarutian> bitcoiner: that is the kicker, nobody really knows.
2871 2011-02-16 18:36:03 <BlueMatt> bitcoiner: bitcoin, no there is no official group to sponsor it...it would have to something which is backed by bitcoins
2872 2011-02-16 18:36:44 <bitcoiner> mmm
2873 2011-02-16 18:36:58 <bitcoiner> so we gotta see it really as gold right ?
2874 2011-02-16 18:37:07 <BlueMatt> Zarutain: though the govt has only ever applied that when it became a problem w/ people using other currencies to launder money (which could be a real problem w/ bitcon)
2875 2011-02-16 18:37:31 <bitcoiner> whats the 3 laws
2876 2011-02-16 18:38:09 andrew12 has joined
2877 2011-02-16 18:38:11 <UukGoblin> first of all, you're gambling: you're playing a game of chance with a random element: life
2878 2011-02-16 18:38:20 <gasteve> it's not a problem with bitcoin...it's more a problem with the fact that people have become accustomed to being able to use the financial system as a tool for law enforcement
2879 2011-02-16 18:38:29 <Zarutian> BlueMatt: which is pretty nifty of their part to limit other currencies. Laundering money can happen regardless of currency.
2880 2011-02-16 18:38:41 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|i need an anonymizer :c
2881 2011-02-16 18:38:48 <BlueMatt> Zarutain: yea but its easier if you are using another exchangeable currency
2882 2011-02-16 18:38:53 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|the one i usually use at school doesnt got blocked after 2 years'
2883 2011-02-16 18:39:01 <UukGoblin> second, you're receiving transmissions on illegal frequencies, cause your brain can act as an antenna an neurons can process electromagnetic events
2884 2011-02-16 18:39:02 <gasteve> you can't have a truly free financial system and be able use it for effective law enforcement at the same time
2885 2011-02-16 18:39:04 <BlueMatt> http://bitcoinlaundry.com/ ...yea
2886 2011-02-16 18:39:06 <UukGoblin> can't think of more right now ;-]
2887 2011-02-16 18:39:44 <Zarutian> andrew12: I recommend tor and i2p if you can install software, for connection anonymousing. But for bitcoins? I dont know of any, yet.
2888 2011-02-16 18:41:14 Validus has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
2889 2011-02-16 18:41:47 <Zarutian> gasteve: which is why, I heard, they have gotten people to associate someone who is carrying a decent sum of cash to being a drug dealer or some such illict.
2890 2011-02-16 18:42:06 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|Zarutian: I haven't tried tor or i2p but I've got a feeling that it won't work
2891 2011-02-16 18:42:17 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|because this is a school computer
2892 2011-02-16 18:42:29 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|plus the i2p site is blocked :(
2893 2011-02-16 18:42:36 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|as is tor
2894 2011-02-16 18:42:49 <Zarutian> andrew12: what kind of blocker? sonicwall?
2895 2011-02-16 18:43:02 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|smartfilter
2896 2011-02-16 18:43:33 <BlueMatt> andrew12 my biggest success with such filters is a ssh tunnel or other vpn on port 443 (so it looks like other ssl)
2897 2011-02-16 18:43:48 * Zarutian seconds that.
2898 2011-02-16 18:43:56 <UukGoblin> 'tor' is blocked? :-S
2899 2011-02-16 18:44:07 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|UukGoblin: the site is
2900 2011-02-16 18:44:09 <UukGoblin> you need a hidden gateway or something
2901 2011-02-16 18:44:11 <UukGoblin> oh, right.
2902 2011-02-16 18:44:40 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|kinda funny, i2p's blocked for "Anonymizing utilities" and tor is blocked for "Anonymizers"
2903 2011-02-16 18:45:08 <Zarutian> so, how to convince the common man that creditcards and paypal isnt very safe? (which is true, just look at the identity theft cases and ruined "credit" ratings)
2904 2011-02-16 18:45:40 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|i'm pretty sure that any outgoing connection has to go through their proxy or it doesn't work
2905 2011-02-16 18:46:15 <BlueMatt> andrew12: thus ssl vpn on port 443 works pretty well
2906 2011-02-16 18:46:40 <BlueMatt> Zarutian: just point out that existing stuff is subject to alot of fraud, and probably not the right channel, try #bitcoin-discussion
2907 2011-02-16 18:47:06 <UukGoblin> jesus how many channels have spawned off this...
2908 2011-02-16 18:47:26 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|BlueMatt: I mean if I try to load any webpage with something like firefox portable (which doesn't use a proxy unless you add it yourself) it doesn't load at all
2909 2011-02-16 18:47:27 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, historically this channel has been used for all sort of off-topic discussions so I doubt it's wrong ;-]
2910 2011-02-16 18:47:38 <BlueMatt> like 3 (4 if you count market) that are popularly used
2911 2011-02-16 18:48:08 <BlueMatt> andrew12: an ssl vpn would be able to use a proxy (putty can even do it on an ssh server)
2912 2011-02-16 18:48:12 <Zarutian> andrew12: and yet you can connect to irc?
2913 2011-02-16 18:48:19 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|I'm using the webirc
2914 2011-02-16 18:48:52 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|qwebirc always works regardless of what's blocked, because the IRC connection itself is on the webserver
2915 2011-02-16 18:49:17 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|unless of course the webserver is blocked
2916 2011-02-16 18:49:48 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|it'd be nice if there was some way to pull out the proxy settings, lol
2917 2011-02-16 18:50:01 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|because i can just tell putty to connect through it
2918 2011-02-16 18:50:37 <BlueMatt> if its in ie's settings, you should be able to import it into just about anything which supports proxies (well many things)
2919 2011-02-16 18:51:13 <BlueMatt> any guesses as to why my 32-bit vm is getting better khash/secs than the host?
2920 2011-02-16 18:51:22 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|heh
2921 2011-02-16 18:51:52 sabalaba has joined
2922 2011-02-16 18:52:30 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|;;lucky
2923 2011-02-16 18:52:30 <gribble> (lucky [--snippet] <search>) -- Does a google search, but only returns the first result. If option --snippet is given, returns also the page text snippet.
2924 2011-02-16 18:52:38 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|;;lucky --snippet find ie proxy password
2925 2011-02-16 18:52:38 <gribble> http://forums.isaserver.org/fb.aspx?m=2002033963 | Proxy authentication problem - 8.Dec.2006 3:10:45 PM ..... that this was a new feature in IE7, but of course I can't find it again now! ...
2926 2011-02-16 18:53:24 <BlueMatt> andrew12 the best way i know of is start ff, and import settings then look at them there (esp good if the ie settings page is disallowed)
2927 2011-02-16 18:54:38 <BlueMatt> is there a reason why 4way is giving me about 1/2 as many khases/sec as c
2928 2011-02-16 18:54:49 <BlueMatt> in jgarzik's miner
2929 2011-02-16 18:55:46 <lfm> some cpus are that way
2930 2011-02-16 18:56:07 <BlueMatt> lfm: any reasons?
2931 2011-02-16 18:56:22 <lfm> what model cpu is it?
2932 2011-02-16 18:56:54 <BlueMatt> q8200 old core 2 quad (not much but enough to get some khases, and working on all i can get till the diff inc in the coming days)
2933 2011-02-16 18:56:54 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|i know the school's proxy's info, but i don't know how they do usernames/passwords
2934 2011-02-16 18:57:03 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|and now i gotta go
2935 2011-02-16 18:57:08 <BlueMatt> bye
2936 2011-02-16 18:57:09 <andrew12> school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|bbl
2937 2011-02-16 18:57:43 <lfm> BlueMatt: ya thats one of em, the see isnt all that optimized in them
2938 2011-02-16 18:57:53 <lfm> see-> sse
2939 2011-02-16 18:58:15 <BlueMatt> ah ok, dam you intel
2940 2011-02-16 18:58:59 <carnage_> do the amd 5xxx and 6xxx series cards work equally well under windows as far as compatibility goes for crunching?
2941 2011-02-16 18:59:01 <lfm> is there a asm32 option? you could try it
2942 2011-02-16 18:59:38 <BlueMatt> lfm no sadly its x64 so no asm32, though a vm (no vtx) that is 32-bit gets more khases w/ that option
2943 2011-02-16 18:59:52 <yoR> andrew12: Yesterday I've done a pull request on GitHub for the DiabloMiner which allows setting a proxy, it works for me going through M$ ISA/NTLM proxies at work
2944 2011-02-16 18:59:54 <BlueMatt> lfm maybe ill try to compile it into 32-bit on the 64 host
2945 2011-02-16 19:01:18 andrew12 has quit (school!401a4b7a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.122|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2946 2011-02-16 19:01:54 <mmarker> Bluematt: should work
2947 2011-02-16 19:05:47 <grubles> carnage_ are you trying to compare performance on windows vs. linux?
2948 2011-02-16 19:06:39 Worf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2949 2011-02-16 19:06:55 <BlueMatt> mmarker: commands?
2950 2011-02-16 19:07:23 <mmarker> Try gcc -m32 as CC
2951 2011-02-16 19:07:36 <BlueMatt> mmarker simple CFLAGS doesnt change the configure to enable the asm32 option
2952 2011-02-16 19:08:25 <carnage_> grubles, nah, i have a bunch of always-on windows boxes that i want to use for mining and i'm trying to figure out the best bang for my buck for gpus to put in them.
2953 2011-02-16 19:08:29 <mmarker> Try -msse2
2954 2011-02-16 19:09:13 <bitcoiner> bitcoin talk live http://www.justin.tv/twit#/w/866348880/22
2955 2011-02-16 19:09:29 <BlueMatt> errors in compile (sorry, unimplemented in the 4way.c file)
2956 2011-02-16 19:09:40 <carnage_> just wondering if the 5xxx series is better than the 6xxx series because it's been around for longer thus less compatibility issues
2957 2011-02-16 19:10:28 <BlueMatt> carnage_ bang for your buck = linux $0 is a bit cheaper than a couple hundred
2958 2011-02-16 19:11:23 <carnage_> yeah... not the issue
2959 2011-02-16 19:12:01 <grubles> on windows you should be fine with either 5* or 6* series cards
2960 2011-02-16 19:12:02 <carnage_> believe me, i agree, but it's an internet cafe, i'm not going to deal with the extra headache of transitioning everything over just yet
2961 2011-02-16 19:12:12 <grubles> not too sure about linux
2962 2011-02-16 19:12:13 <carnage_> cool, thanks
2963 2011-02-16 19:12:35 <BlueMatt> amd supplies their own binary drivers so you would be fine no matter what you chose
2964 2011-02-16 19:13:01 <ZenMondo> bitcoiner: are they already done talking about Bitcoin?
2965 2011-02-16 19:13:03 <carnage_> and Flops to hashes is pretty much a linear relationship, right?  also was curious if double percision operations matters yet
2966 2011-02-16 19:13:27 mmarker has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2967 2011-02-16 19:13:56 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2968 2011-02-16 19:14:25 <bitcoiner> no sorry they will be talking
2969 2011-02-16 19:14:49 <bitcoiner> they made the intro they will answer question about the last episode about bitcoins in a few minutes I guess
2970 2011-02-16 19:15:05 <bitcoiner> they say it generated alot of responses
2971 2011-02-16 19:15:34 pwrgeek has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2972 2011-02-16 19:15:55 MartianW has joined
2973 2011-02-16 19:16:07 glassresistor has joined
2974 2011-02-16 19:16:42 <lfm> carnage_: flops has nothing to do with hashes, hashes are purly fixed point
2975 2011-02-16 19:17:16 <grubles> carnage_ if you are looking for a figure to base your choice on, go with the # of stream processors
2976 2011-02-16 19:17:49 <carnage_> ok
2977 2011-02-16 19:18:34 <grubles> for example: a 5770 has 800 sps, which is half a 5870. a 5870 is half of a 5970
2978 2011-02-16 19:18:51 <grubles> core clock speed comes into play also
2979 2011-02-16 19:19:21 <BlueMatt> theres a list of hardware to khases
2980 2011-02-16 19:19:43 <grubles> http://pastebin.com/AvymGnMJ
2981 2011-02-16 19:20:06 <carnage_> yeah, i've been compairing this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units
2982 2011-02-16 19:20:24 <ArtForz> yea
2983 2011-02-16 19:20:38 <ArtForz> I wrote the first one, which the second one is mostly based on
2984 2011-02-16 19:20:40 <carnage_> and it looked like flops cooresponded fairly linearly but that must have just been a coincidence if hashing is all fixed point heh
2985 2011-02-16 19:20:40 <grubles> carnage_ may i point you to the article i have written: http://whiterockcottage.com/open/index.php?q=article/1849-gold-bits
2986 2011-02-16 19:20:55 <carnage_> sure
2987 2011-02-16 19:21:15 <ArtForz> well, flops within a fmaily usually also scale with #ALUs*clock
2988 2011-02-16 19:21:37 <ArtForz> generally SP flops = integer ops/s * 2
2989 2011-02-16 19:21:58 <ArtForz> because marketing weasels count MULADD as 2 FLOPS
2990 2011-02-16 19:22:30 <lfm> muladds are great
2991 2011-02-16 19:22:40 <ArtForz> within a family performance scales very near 100% with ALUs * clock
2992 2011-02-16 19:23:19 <ArtForz> between families or architectures it differs, possibly by quite a lot
2993 2011-02-16 19:24:10 <ArtForz> for example 5xxx gets nearly 50% higher hashrate/INTOP compared to 4xxx or nvidia 2/4/5xx
2994 2011-02-16 19:24:24 <lfm> biggest difference is between ati and nvidia
2995 2011-02-16 19:24:26 <MartianW> ArtForz, how much does it cost to build a single one of your custom miners BTW?
2996 2011-02-16 19:24:49 filterbox has joined
2997 2011-02-16 19:25:16 <ArtForz> 7kEUR
2998 2011-02-16 19:25:30 <ArtForz> 6.4GHps
2999 2011-02-16 19:26:00 <bitcoiner> art when did you start mining ?
3000 2011-02-16 19:26:00 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
3001 2011-02-16 19:26:03 <ArtForz> 290W at the plug
3002 2011-02-16 19:26:13 <carnage_> holy crap
3003 2011-02-16 19:26:24 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: DAM that is nice
3004 2011-02-16 19:26:27 <carnage_> 290W @ 6.4GHps??
3005 2011-02-16 19:26:30 <ArtForz> yep
3006 2011-02-16 19:26:42 <cosurgi> that's custom FFPGA ?
3007 2011-02-16 19:26:46 <carnage_> how do you keep the power comsumption so low?
3008 2011-02-16 19:26:51 <ArtForz> july 14
3009 2011-02-16 19:27:27 <grubles> so how many of those bad boys do you have then
3010 2011-02-16 19:27:29 <ArtForz> yeah, custom structured asic
3011 2011-02-16 19:27:43 <ArtForz> for now 100 chips, should be good for 3 boxes
3012 2011-02-16 19:28:52 <grubles> are those the cards you are going to ebay eventually
3013 2011-02-16 19:28:59 <ArtForz> nah
3014 2011-02-16 19:29:04 <ArtForz> still havent gotten it properly working yet though
3015 2011-02-16 19:29:19 <cosurgi> ArtForz: where did you buy them from?
3016 2011-02-16 19:29:37 <grubles> i suppose you are going to sell them at some point?
3017 2011-02-16 19:29:54 <ArtForz> mmmh, not sure yet
3018 2011-02-16 19:30:05 <lfm> I can hear the salivatation starting from here
3019 2011-02-16 19:30:07 <ArtForz> seems theres some problem with the serial protocol between slaves and controller
3020 2011-02-16 19:30:17 <JFK911> lol
3021 2011-02-16 19:30:41 <ArtForz> slaves react to commands, but the responses arent what I expect
3022 2011-02-16 19:31:02 <JFK911> How did you verify them before they went to manufacturing?
3023 2011-02-16 19:31:15 <grubles> so you have 6.4ghps * 100 chips?
3024 2011-02-16 19:31:17 <ArtForz> no
3025 2011-02-16 19:31:25 <ArtForz> 200Mhps/chip
3026 2011-02-16 19:31:29 <ArtForz> VHDL testbench
3027 2011-02-16 19:31:33 <grubles> ah ok
3028 2011-02-16 19:31:52 <ArtForz> 32 per box
3029 2011-02-16 19:32:07 <ArtForz> and hoping to get at least 96 out of 100 working
3030 2011-02-16 19:32:22 <grubles> is your development based off of an existing fpga or is it from scratch
3031 2011-02-16 19:32:22 <JFK911> less than 100% yield = rude
3032 2011-02-16 19:32:34 <ArtForz> it's not a FPGA FFS
3033 2011-02-16 19:33:04 <grubles> easy now
3034 2011-02-16 19:33:15 <ArtForz> a metal mask defined asic sure as hell isnt field programmable
3035 2011-02-16 19:33:48 <grubles> well, excusing me for asking lol
3036 2011-02-16 19:33:53 <grubles> excuse*
3037 2011-02-16 19:33:59 devon_hillard_ has joined
3038 2011-02-16 19:35:41 <ArtForz> I think I already know why I'm reading garbage
3039 2011-02-16 19:37:04 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3040 2011-02-16 19:37:49 ntosme2 has left ()
3041 2011-02-16 19:37:51 <grubles> reading garbage?
3042 2011-02-16 19:38:24 <jgarzik> writing garbage?
3043 2011-02-16 19:38:27 * jgarzik runs
3044 2011-02-16 19:38:43 <ArtForz> definitely reading garbage
3045 2011-02-16 19:38:55 <gavinandresen> (I was gonna guess ArtForz just doesn't have the tonal fonts installed....)
3046 2011-02-16 19:39:43 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stats
3047 2011-02-16 19:39:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108534 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 329 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 14 hours, 12 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 35380.43495452
3048 2011-02-16 19:39:50 <ArtForz> I can tell the ASICs read the commands properly, from getting response/no response for different commands
3049 2011-02-16 19:39:50 <grubles> explain how one reads garbage
3050 2011-02-16 19:40:23 <JFK911> Wont it suck if your endians got mixed up or something
3051 2011-02-16 19:40:38 <ArtForz> the responses I read look semi-randomly garbled
3052 2011-02-16 19:41:05 <ArtForz> looks like bits adjacent to transitions are flipped sometimes
3053 2011-02-16 19:41:05 <JFK911> Describe the interface?
3054 2011-02-16 19:41:06 <lfm> timing for the serial?
3055 2011-02-16 19:41:10 <JFK911> oh
3056 2011-02-16 19:41:16 <JFK911> ew.
3057 2011-02-16 19:41:18 <ArtForz> = I fucked up timing somewhere
3058 2011-02-16 19:41:31 <JFK911> Its synchronus right?
3059 2011-02-16 19:41:37 <ArtForz> yep
3060 2011-02-16 19:41:49 <JFK911> Man thats gay I hope you get it resolved
3061 2011-02-16 19:42:22 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 5000
3062 2011-02-16 19:42:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 36 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes, and 8 seconds
3063 2011-02-16 19:42:30 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,calc 240000
3064 2011-02-16 19:42:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 240000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 5 days, 9 hours, 14 minutes, and 10 seconds
3065 2011-02-16 19:42:39 <MartianW> Difficulty still hasn't adjusted.
3066 2011-02-16 19:42:48 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,stats
3067 2011-02-16 19:42:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 108534 | Current Difficulty: 25997.87992881 | Next Difficulty At Block: 108863 | Next Difficulty In: 329 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 14 hours, 12 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 35380.43495452
3068 2011-02-16 19:42:56 <BlueMatt> 1 day, 14 hours...
3069 2011-02-16 19:43:06 <MartianW> Tick, tock.
3070 2011-02-16 19:43:14 <MartianW> That's a pretty big increase.
3071 2011-02-16 19:43:18 <JunK-Y> ya
3072 2011-02-16 19:43:25 <JFK911> Ha
3073 2011-02-16 19:43:35 <JFK911> Do you think anyone will fall off because of that
3074 2011-02-16 19:43:42 <carnage_> grubles: thanks for the link to your article, very concise.  when are you writing part 2?
3075 2011-02-16 19:43:51 <JunK-Y> JFK911: cpus probably.
3076 2011-02-16 19:44:53 <jgarzik> slashdot always increases difficulty :)
3077 2011-02-16 19:45:27 <JFK911> That website gets more stupid by the day
3078 2011-02-16 19:46:14 <JunK-Y> the ;;bc,calc is with 65% probability?
3079 2011-02-16 19:46:43 <BlueMatt> JunK-Y its close, esp when we get close the the next difficulty it should be around correct
3080 2011-02-16 19:51:26 TheAncientGoat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3081 2011-02-16 19:53:10 <bitcoiner> they are talking bout bitcoin now
3082 2011-02-16 19:55:15 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3083 2011-02-16 19:56:15 <EvanR-work> is the topic out of date?
3084 2011-02-16 19:56:18 <EvanR-work> whats the latest version?
3085 2011-02-16 19:56:54 <KBme> so...my miner found a block an hour ago
3086 2011-02-16 19:57:13 <lfm> 0.3.19 is still current, 0.3.20 is in beta
3087 2011-02-16 19:57:23 <KBme> where do I see the dough?
3088 2011-02-16 19:58:05 <grubles> kbme, it takes 120 confirms to show up in your wallet
3089 2011-02-16 19:58:13 <KBme> ah ok
3090 2011-02-16 19:58:20 <KBme> we'll see later then i guess
3091 2011-02-16 19:59:22 dishwara has left ()
3092 2011-02-16 20:01:40 mrb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3093 2011-02-16 20:03:41 <lfm> you can see it in your log file
3094 2011-02-16 20:06:44 oldtimer has joined
3095 2011-02-16 20:07:03 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3096 2011-02-16 20:07:07 <jgarzik> has anyone done a pure-Python miner yet, using hashlib?
3097 2011-02-16 20:07:31 <jgarzik> or straight python w/out hashlib
3098 2011-02-16 20:07:54 dwdollar1 has left ()
3099 2011-02-16 20:08:16 * jgarzik wonders how much of the sha stuff in poclbm can be re-used, if OpenCL is stripped out entirely
3100 2011-02-16 20:08:44 oldtimer has quit (Client Quit)
3101 2011-02-16 20:09:56 <lfm> you think we need more cpu miners?
3102 2011-02-16 20:11:32 <MartianW> Unless someone mathematically attacks SHA256 CPU mining will be pointless.
3103 2011-02-16 20:11:35 <grubles> carnage_ part 2 should be published either in the next issue (next week most likely) or the following issue
3104 2011-02-16 20:11:53 ousado has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3105 2011-02-16 20:13:50 <jgarzik> nah, it's for testing
3106 2011-02-16 20:14:12 <jgarzik> + clearly written example implementation
3107 2011-02-16 20:14:29 <carnage_> cool
3108 2011-02-16 20:14:40 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3109 2011-02-16 20:15:05 <xelister> who is in charge of bitcoin?  please stand up
3110 2011-02-16 20:15:08 <xelister> (like a boss :P)
3111 2011-02-16 20:15:27 <carnage_> i'm gonna go grab 4 refurbished 5870s today and see if i can't burn them out before then :p
3112 2011-02-16 20:15:28 <xelister> we need urgently to upgrade the GUI client imo, many bitcoin newbies have one problem
3113 2011-02-16 20:15:49 <andrew12> will the real gavinandresen please stand up
3114 2011-02-16 20:15:51 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen, jgarzik, etc
3115 2011-02-16 20:16:10 <gavinandresen> huhwhathuh?
3116 2011-02-16 20:16:18 ousado has joined
3117 2011-02-16 20:16:19 <xelister> "I run bitcoin for so many days and no coins :<"  - the GUI client should iform them that they should best buy the coins etc and link some markets
3118 2011-02-16 20:16:42 <gavinandresen> "we need to" ....    patches are very welcome!
3119 2011-02-16 20:16:49 <andrew12> have a link to the wiki
3120 2011-02-16 20:16:52 <gavinandresen> (not for 0.3.20, though, it'll have to wait)
3121 2011-02-16 20:16:55 <xelister> otherwise many of the new users from slashdot effect will turn it on, look at it "meh no coins... scam" and uninstall
3122 2011-02-16 20:17:06 <andrew12> "go here and learn stuff about bitcoin"
3123 2011-02-16 20:17:35 <xelister> yea. and "Here you can just buy coins - and here you can spend. Also google bitcoin accepting services"
3124 2011-02-16 20:17:52 <xelister> also, it seemed to be last time that bitcoin (GUI version) lacked option to stop generating O_o ?
3125 2011-02-16 20:17:56 <xelister> a bit older ver thou
3126 2011-02-16 20:18:34 <andrew12> well there is bitcoin.org/trade
3127 2011-02-16 20:18:52 <xelister> yea but pputtingit inside gui will be help for many users probably
3128 2011-02-16 20:20:39 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen s talk at ignite http://blip.tv/file/4771178, really good talk btw
3129 2011-02-16 20:20:52 satamusic has joined
3130 2011-02-16 20:20:52 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks!
3131 2011-02-16 20:20:53 satamusic has quit (Changing host)
3132 2011-02-16 20:20:53 satamusic has joined
3133 2011-02-16 20:23:49 <KBme> lfm: what should I look for?
3134 2011-02-16 20:24:23 ousado has quit (Changing host)
3135 2011-02-16 20:24:23 ousado has joined
3136 2011-02-16 20:24:49 <KBme> wtf i see a bunch of irc stuff?!
3137 2011-02-16 20:25:02 <KBme> there is actually on p2p in bitcoin? it's all through irc?
3138 2011-02-16 20:25:12 <KBme> s,on,no
3139 2011-02-16 20:25:17 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3140 2011-02-16 20:25:33 <BlueMatt> no it uses irc to bootstrap
3141 2011-02-16 20:25:44 <BlueMatt> ie find peers to connect to, though it can use other methods as well
3142 2011-02-16 20:25:51 <ZenMondo> I have not looked at the code yet but I think the IRC stuff is there to find peers.
3143 2011-02-16 20:25:54 <KBme> ahh
3144 2011-02-16 20:25:59 <andrew12> it is
3145 2011-02-16 20:26:10 <KBme> i see, that simplifies bootstrapping a lot
3146 2011-02-16 20:26:12 <KBme> good idea
3147 2011-02-16 20:26:27 <KBme> anyways, my blocxk still hasn't been confirmed :'(
3148 2011-02-16 20:26:59 <gasteve> I agree about the UI (I'm one of those slashdot newbies btw)...I had heard of bitcoin before and had followed other e-money solutions in the past, and understand markets, money as well as software and crypto...so, when I studied it closer this time around...I got it...but not everyone will be like me...and a simpler UI that hides some of the long address and confirmation details would be a good thing (you can always make an option to switch to a
3149 2011-02-16 20:27:00 <gasteve> advanced UI
3150 2011-02-16 20:27:18 <gasteve> also, the wallet should always be stored encrypted on disk
3151 2011-02-16 20:27:49 <ZenMondo> Is there a solution to automate backup of your wallet on a transaction?
3152 2011-02-16 20:28:20 <gasteve> and, btw, I would like to work on the client UI...I've got a couple other minor projects to get out of the way before I dive in though
3153 2011-02-16 20:28:23 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: you dont need to backup after each transaction, only after each new address
3154 2011-02-16 20:29:10 spaetz_ has joined
3155 2011-02-16 20:30:02 <ZenMondo> well has that been automated at all?
3156 2011-02-16 20:30:24 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: AFAIK no
3157 2011-02-16 20:30:42 <xelister> anonymous bitcoin over freenet - http://imagebin.org/138208
3158 2011-02-16 20:30:59 <KBme> ☹ where is my block?!
3159 2011-02-16 20:31:01 <KBme> grmbl :P
3160 2011-02-16 20:31:13 <KBme> [2/16/11 8:01:53 PM] Block 1 found on Cypress (#1)
3161 2011-02-16 20:31:14 <gasteve> btw, is there any way to change the location of the wallet ?  I don't see an option in the UI
3162 2011-02-16 20:31:18 <KBme> \☺/
3163 2011-02-16 20:31:35 <BlueMatt> KBme: will take a while 120 blocks @ about 10 blocks per hour
3164 2011-02-16 20:31:57 <KBme> oh!
3165 2011-02-16 20:32:16 <KBme> ok so that's 12 hours minimum
3166 2011-02-16 20:32:49 <BlueMatt> well it is going a bit faster because of all the new folk, hence the increase in difficulty in the next day or two, but yea
3167 2011-02-16 20:33:49 <KBme> is there a place where we can find out the "speed"?
3168 2011-02-16 20:34:19 <lfm> gasteve: command line option -configdir
3169 2011-02-16 20:34:39 <BlueMatt> KBme: http://bitcoinwatch.com/ and blockexplorer.com
3170 2011-02-16 20:34:39 <gasteve> yeah, guess I should rtfm ;)
3171 2011-02-16 20:38:04 <gavinandresen> gasteve: lfm means -datadir
3172 2011-02-16 20:38:13 <KBme> bitcoinwatch is nice
3173 2011-02-16 20:38:18 <KBme> how does he calculate it?
3174 2011-02-16 20:38:30 <KBme> bitcoin should be able to display this information
3175 2011-02-16 20:38:49 <jgarzik> KBme: which info, specifically?
3176 2011-02-16 20:38:56 altamic has joined
3177 2011-02-16 20:39:03 <KBme> blocks/h
3178 2011-02-16 20:39:16 <KBme> among others
3179 2011-02-16 20:39:31 <KBme> no, that's really pretty much the only thing i miss from the client
3180 2011-02-16 20:39:45 <KBme> it's useful information for knowing how long a transaction takes
3181 2011-02-16 20:39:51 <jgarzik> KBme: full data from each block is extracted into sql database.  then simple queries can be run, such as that.
3182 2011-02-16 20:40:06 <KBme> also, my miner just found a block
3183 2011-02-16 20:40:11 <KBme> why you say 120 blocks?
3184 2011-02-16 20:40:42 <lfm> you dont know how long it will take to confirm a transaction really
3185 2011-02-16 20:41:00 <lfm> even if you know the recent history
3186 2011-02-16 20:41:20 <BlueMatt> block times are completely random
3187 2011-02-16 20:41:27 glassresistor has quit (Changing host)
3188 2011-02-16 20:41:27 glassresistor has joined
3189 2011-02-16 20:41:39 <lfm> kbane its just 120 cuz it is. thats in the design parameters
3190 2011-02-16 20:42:07 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3191 2011-02-16 20:42:18 <lfm> KBme:
3192 2011-02-16 20:43:36 EvanR-work is now known as EvanR
3193 2011-02-16 20:43:40 puddinpop has joined
3194 2011-02-16 20:44:21 lyspooner has joined
3195 2011-02-16 20:44:34 <KBme> ohh i see what you mean
3196 2011-02-16 20:44:44 <KBme> so this is 10 block confirmation per second
3197 2011-02-16 20:44:55 <KBme> and since I need 120
3198 2011-02-16 20:44:59 <KBme> okk, i see
3199 2011-02-16 20:45:21 <lfm> on average 10 min/block
3200 2011-02-16 20:45:49 <lfm> yes, 120 is 20 hours
3201 2011-02-16 20:46:24 <andrew12> hah!
3202 2011-02-16 20:46:33 <andrew12> the committer on the latest commit is "invalid-email-address"
3203 2011-02-16 20:46:41 <lfm> long way from 10 block/sec
3204 2011-02-16 20:47:37 <JFK911> Sabotage!!
3205 2011-02-16 20:50:06 cronopio has joined
3206 2011-02-16 20:50:26 <lyspooner> what percent of the world's 5870 and 5970's are devoted to bitcoin generation?
3207 2011-02-16 20:50:38 <BlueMatt> lyspooner almost nothing
3208 2011-02-16 20:50:44 <xelister> I will be selling 5970's
3209 2011-02-16 20:50:52 renovatio has joined
3210 2011-02-16 20:50:53 <cronopio> jgarzik: hello. Im trying to use your worker on macosx, the ./configure done fine, but the compiler get and error.
3211 2011-02-16 20:51:04 <xelister> selling from EU (if you are in EU too then lower cost and probably no customs tax)
3212 2011-02-16 20:51:05 <andrew12> lfm: on average it's *supposed* to be 1 block/10 min, but it really isn't
3213 2011-02-16 20:51:28 <xelister> anyone potentially interesting?
3214 2011-02-16 20:51:29 renovatio has quit (Client Quit)
3215 2011-02-16 20:51:31 <andrew12> cronopio: you're trying to use jgarzik's cpu miner?
3216 2011-02-16 20:51:34 <lfm> andrew12: ya, just cuz it is stiill growing
3217 2011-02-16 20:51:35 <BlueMatt> andrew12 lfm thus the difficulty adjustments, so that it is close
3218 2011-02-16 20:52:14 <andrew12> cronopio: I've got it built and it works on my mac, i can give you a binary
3219 2011-02-16 20:52:39 <cronopio> andrew12: wow, yeah! fabulous!!
3220 2011-02-16 20:53:36 <cronopio> this is my error http://ctrlv.randomlab.net/208
3221 2011-02-16 20:53:40 <andrew12> cronopio: http://cl.ly/4dRA -- download that and gunzip it
3222 2011-02-16 20:54:14 <andrew12> or http://cl.ly/4dRA/minerd.gz if you like direct links
3223 2011-02-16 20:54:41 <andrew12> it might not work perfectly for your mac though.
3224 2011-02-16 20:55:55 <cronopio> its a macosx normal, not pro
3225 2011-02-16 20:56:01 eJR-[i] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3226 2011-02-16 20:56:11 <andrew12> there is no such thing as macosx pro
3227 2011-02-16 20:56:17 <BlueMatt> pro????
3228 2011-02-16 20:58:38 <cronopio> im not a mac lover, i dont know about that. Only know there 2 editions white and gray, normal and pro :S
3229 2011-02-16 20:59:13 <RichardG> cronopio: you mean normal and server?
3230 2011-02-16 20:59:25 <andrew12> cronopio: they're not "editions", they're models, and that has nothing to do with the os
3231 2011-02-16 20:59:29 <BlueMatt> macosx only comes in intel and powerpc and the latest version is only on intel, yea and desktop/server
3232 2011-02-16 20:59:38 <RichardG> desktop and server are equal, just different theming (purple vs. blue)
3233 2011-02-16 20:59:43 <RichardG> different apps
3234 2011-02-16 20:59:52 <RichardG> and server uses serial numbers
3235 2011-02-16 20:59:54 <RichardG> just that
3236 2011-02-16 20:59:58 <andrew12> powerpc doesn't work with 10.6, other than that it does work
3237 2011-02-16 21:00:08 <andrew12> different architectures etc. :p
3238 2011-02-16 21:00:18 <andrew12> 10.6 is really just 10.5 without all the powerpc stuff
3239 2011-02-16 21:00:37 <andrew12> i mean there's some small upgrades but they're really not noticable
3240 2011-02-16 21:01:48 <lfm> macos is just unix without the portability
3241 2011-02-16 21:02:20 <BlueMatt> lfm lol yea
3242 2011-02-16 21:02:33 <andrew12> heh
3243 2011-02-16 21:02:50 <andrew12> it's more like freebsd but sure
3244 2011-02-16 21:02:52 <lfm> no, I am not a troll, really, no!
3245 2011-02-16 21:03:08 mmarker has joined
3246 2011-02-16 21:03:47 <bitcoiner> only core clock increase khash ?
3247 2011-02-16 21:04:11 <andrew12> there are other factors too...
3248 2011-02-16 21:04:39 <bitcoiner> I know but I moving up clock clock and it increase khash but memory clock doesnt
3249 2011-02-16 21:04:45 <bitcoiner> i meant core clock
3250 2011-02-16 21:05:06 <lfm> sometimes new software versions increase hash/sec
3251 2011-02-16 21:05:18 <andrew12> well that's probably because there isn't much that it needs to remember besides the block headers
3252 2011-02-16 21:05:39 <lfm> bitcoiner: ya, ok the memory speed is not relevant to bitcoin mining
3253 2011-02-16 21:05:40 <bitcoiner> right cool thanks
3254 2011-02-16 21:05:54 <cronopio> sorry
3255 2011-02-16 21:06:04 <andrew12> why are you apoligizing? :)
3256 2011-02-16 21:06:11 jwalck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3257 2011-02-16 21:06:11 <cronopio> andrew12: the binary run great!!, a now worker ;)
3258 2011-02-16 21:06:15 <cronopio> andrew12: the binary run great!!, a new worker ;)
3259 2011-02-16 21:06:16 <andrew12> cool
3260 2011-02-16 21:06:23 <bitcoiner> so once it overclock I need to just watch the gpu tmp ?
3261 2011-02-16 21:06:37 <cronopio> andrew12: thanks a lot!!!
3262 2011-02-16 21:06:39 <nanotube> you need to watch it even if you don't overclock :)
3263 2011-02-16 21:06:40 <andrew12> bitcoiner: you need to cool it too :P
3264 2011-02-16 21:06:45 <lfm> bitcoiner: and tear up your warantee
3265 2011-02-16 21:07:13 <bitcoiner> lol
3266 2011-02-16 21:07:17 <bitcoiner> whats safe tmp ?
3267 2011-02-16 21:07:31 <andrew12> cold enough to touch
3268 2011-02-16 21:07:35 <andrew12> hehe
3269 2011-02-16 21:07:39 <bitcoiner> 70c
3270 2011-02-16 21:07:44 <lfm> most chips shouldnt go over 80c
3271 2011-02-16 21:07:58 <lfm> or 70c, kinda a matter of taste
3272 2011-02-16 21:08:00 lyspooner_ has joined
3273 2011-02-16 21:08:03 <ArtForz> long term, ambient
3274 2011-02-16 21:08:18 <ArtForz> for a few years, 80°C or so
3275 2011-02-16 21:08:18 <bitcoiner> I could care less if it broke I got another in the mail
3276 2011-02-16 21:08:44 <bitcoiner> and I guess I can always use my onboard graphic ? (not for mining)
3277 2011-02-16 21:08:46 <lfm> oh then you should take it up to 120c
3278 2011-02-16 21:09:09 <ArtForz> btw, really long term even ambient is too hot
3279 2011-02-16 21:09:20 <bitcoiner> well whats the possibility if I Raise the core clock higher than the brackets in riva tuner ?
3280 2011-02-16 21:09:24 <lfm> it will break but you dont care
3281 2011-02-16 21:09:41 altamic_ has joined
3282 2011-02-16 21:09:42 altamic_ has quit (Changing host)
3283 2011-02-16 21:09:42 altamic_ has joined
3284 2011-02-16 21:09:43 <ArtForz> intermetallic crystal growth is fucking weird
3285 2011-02-16 21:09:59 lyspooner has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3286 2011-02-16 21:10:09 lyspooner_ is now known as lyspooner
3287 2011-02-16 21:10:13 <lfm> immerse it in liquid helium?
3288 2011-02-16 21:10:17 <ArtForz> pretty much
3289 2011-02-16 21:10:24 <bitcoiner> well I wont break it on purpose but I am willing to risk it
3290 2011-02-16 21:10:26 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3291 2011-02-16 21:10:48 <ArtForz> basically, all solder joints start to form internal crystals and go brittle over time
3292 2011-02-16 21:10:52 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3293 2011-02-16 21:10:55 <lfm> liquid helium is frikin weird too
3294 2011-02-16 21:12:29 <lfm> bitcoiner: seriously 80c is a good target
3295 2011-02-16 21:12:34 <BlueMatt> yea liquid helium would make your computer not work, the silicon wont work at the right resistance
3296 2011-02-16 21:12:36 <ArtForz> at room temp it takes decades to become an issue, at *really* elevated temps (150°C or so), it's a matter of weeks
3297 2011-02-16 21:12:50 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3298 2011-02-16 21:12:51 altamic_ is now known as altamic
3299 2011-02-16 21:12:52 <BlueMatt> most chips throttle back to avoid reaching 100
3300 2011-02-16 21:13:10 <bitcoiner> well overclock im at 71C max
3301 2011-02-16 21:13:10 <ArtForz> ATIs start to throttle at 105°C core
3302 2011-02-16 21:13:34 <BlueMatt> depends on the chip for intel and nvidia, but either way its around 100 C
3303 2011-02-16 21:13:38 <ArtForz> which you usually can't reach, as the VRMs hit 120°c before that and also cause throttling
3304 2011-02-16 21:13:39 <bitcoiner> but this my first time overclocking am wondering if the risk of raising the core clock is only tmp or something else ?
3305 2011-02-16 21:13:50 <ArtForz> it really depends on the process used
3306 2011-02-16 21:13:52 <BlueMatt> most intels will shutdown at 100 and throttle long before
3307 2011-02-16 21:14:05 <ArtForz> more modern processes don't tolerate high temps too well
3308 2011-02-16 21:14:34 <lfm> I had a celeron seemed to throttle at 90c
3309 2011-02-16 21:15:10 <ArtForz> btw, auto throttling temp != max long-term safe temp
3310 2011-02-16 21:15:22 <BlueMatt> ArtForz absolutley
3311 2011-02-16 21:15:43 <mmarker> Oh yea. Materials hate temperature.
3312 2011-02-16 21:15:46 <BlueMatt> it is the absolute max
3313 2011-02-16 21:16:00 <lfm> ideally the throlle should just run long enuf for you to read the "fan died" message and shut down
3314 2011-02-16 21:16:33 <mmarker> I've seen some chatter about custom silicon for this. Guessing its still slow for the cost vs house, right?
3315 2011-02-16 21:16:35 <ArtForz> for example I think core i series CPUs are specced for continous <= 65°C
3316 2011-02-16 21:16:57 <BlueMatt> ArtForz...oops
3317 2011-02-16 21:17:02 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3318 2011-02-16 21:17:23 <BlueMatt> mine are continuous around 70, not too bad though
3319 2011-02-16 21:17:24 <ArtForz> short term way hotter is possible, but the spec sheets say it will shorten lifespan
3320 2011-02-16 21:17:43 <ArtForz> but then who cares if a CPU dies after 15 instead of 30 years ...
3321 2011-02-16 21:17:54 <BlueMatt> yea well Ill get a new computer before the 10 year lifespan or whatever it is speced at
3322 2011-02-16 21:18:10 TD has joined
3323 2011-02-16 21:21:16 <JFK911> 65c is low temp
3324 2011-02-16 21:21:34 <JFK911> I thought 85c was standard range
3325 2011-02-16 21:22:15 <lfm> i think 85c is pushing it a bit for most chips
3326 2011-02-16 21:22:22 <BlueMatt> JFK911: i try to never run 77 or higher full time
3327 2011-02-16 21:22:25 <ArtForz> most new chips
3328 2011-02-16 21:22:37 <ArtForz> it really depends on process and materials
3329 2011-02-16 21:22:46 <xelister> selling radeon 5970, 900 BTC opening offer, in EU (Poland) (buyer covers transport/customs etc, if any)
3330 2011-02-16 21:22:52 <JFK911> Well, normally seminconductor datasheets claim 85c operating temperature at normal spec
3331 2011-02-16 21:23:01 <lfm> well vacuum tubes did run somewhat hotter
3332 2011-02-16 21:23:09 <JFK911> automotive and military chips are guaranteed higher
3333 2011-02-16 21:23:17 <ArtForz> theres plenty <= 45nm stuff rated for industrial temp range...
3334 2011-02-16 21:23:18 <JFK911> 125c is a common high test spec.
3335 2011-02-16 21:23:35 <ArtForz> yep
3336 2011-02-16 21:24:03 <ArtForz> though 125C is kinda rare for modern silicon
3337 2011-02-16 21:24:09 <JFK911> So I just have assumed 85c is everyones minimum maximum after years of seeing it
3338 2011-02-16 21:24:12 <BlueMatt> but for a standard intel/amd/nvidia part not so much
3339 2011-02-16 21:24:29 <JFK911> Well Yea you have to pay extra for the high temp part
3340 2011-02-16 21:24:35 ginn has joined
3341 2011-02-16 21:24:36 <BlueMatt> JFK911 it really depends on the part a gtx480 runs really hot but a celeron will not
3342 2011-02-16 21:24:59 <ArtForz> GPUs are usually specced for higher "safe" temps because they have a shorter expected useful life
3343 2011-02-16 21:25:16 <JFK911> If there's a protection mechanism that the chipmaker designed, shouldn't that kick in before you get into the safety margin?
3344 2011-02-16 21:25:20 <ArtForz> no
3345 2011-02-16 21:25:32 <Syke> my ati cards were showing throttling under 90C
3346 2011-02-16 21:25:42 <ArtForz> thats usually the VRMs hitting 120°C
3347 2011-02-16 21:25:54 <ArtForz> core temp throttling is at 105
3348 2011-02-16 21:26:08 <ArtForz> core temp forced shutdown at 110
3349 2011-02-16 21:26:26 <ArtForz> VRM throttling is at 120, VRM forced shutdown at 130
3350 2011-02-16 21:26:51 <JFK911> i think 105 is way too hot
3351 2011-02-16 21:27:01 <JFK911> For me to be comfy with anyway
3352 2011-02-16 21:27:16 <BlueMatt> JFK911 i totally agree, anything above 80 full time scares me
3353 2011-02-16 21:27:20 <ArtForz> yep
3354 2011-02-16 21:27:34 <BlueMatt> then again part time you could go a bit over
3355 2011-02-16 21:27:43 <ArtForz> the 105°C throttling is mainly for "shit the fan died"
3356 2011-02-16 21:28:29 <mmarker> Heh. I remember when my i5 fan fell off
3357 2011-02-16 21:28:43 <BlueMatt> yea or shit you set voltages with a . in the wrong spot. or in my case your mobo is setting your voltages about 1V more than what is set in the bios
3358 2011-02-16 21:28:51 <mmarker> Not cool. No pun intended
3359 2011-02-16 21:29:21 <BlueMatt> yea really not
3360 2011-02-16 21:29:36 <ArtForz> had a A64 X2 run a few weeks pretty much without a heatsink...
3361 2011-02-16 21:30:40 <BlueMatt> some cpus can take it
3362 2011-02-16 21:31:13 <JFK911> That cheap Sapphire 5870 was pulled from the Newegg catalog.
3363 2011-02-16 21:31:22 <JFK911> Now they have an XFX one with rebate strings.
3364 2011-02-16 21:31:26 <ArtForz> the stupid plastic retention nose broke off
3365 2011-02-16 21:31:41 <JFK911> Get the zip-ties, Pentium 4 style
3366 2011-02-16 21:31:43 <ArtForz> actually on that board the whole frame was brittle like hell
3367 2011-02-16 21:32:27 <ArtForz> broke into like 6 parts just from unscrewing it
3368 2011-02-16 21:32:50 BlueMatt has left ("goodbye all")
3369 2011-02-16 21:32:51 <ArtForz> replaced it, box still runs today
3370 2011-02-16 21:34:55 <RichardG> any way to fix the fact gui gives me a new address every time i start it
3371 2011-02-16 21:36:14 <mmarker> Hmm. Damn. Read the wrong screen. The Cortex-A8 machine is only doing 280khash
3372 2011-02-16 21:36:22 <mmarker> *sadface*
3373 2011-02-16 21:36:39 <ArtForz> thats not really THAT bad
3374 2011-02-16 21:36:48 <ArtForz> about as fast as a atom ...
3375 2011-02-16 21:37:17 <RichardG> also a question, what's the difference between a peer irc client with nick and/or ident starting with u and another one with x?
3376 2011-02-16 21:37:30 <mmarker> Think I am better on a per Watt basis though
3377 2011-02-16 21:37:38 <ArtForz> yep
3378 2011-02-16 21:38:14 <ArtForz> would be more interesting to compare it to a less sucky cpu for efficiency
3379 2011-02-16 21:38:42 <mmarker> Think this one is pulling about 1W
3380 2011-02-16 21:38:53 <mmarker> Need to power meter it..
3381 2011-02-16 21:39:27 <mmarker> Art: what would be a good candidate?
3382 2011-02-16 21:39:52 <ArtForz> 6/8/12 core opteron
3383 2011-02-16 21:40:04 citiz3n has quit ()
3384 2011-02-16 21:40:34 <mmarker> Shh. Don't have one of those.
3385 2011-02-16 21:40:38 <ArtForz> iirc a 8*2GHz opteron gets ~16Mh/s
3386 2011-02-16 21:40:48 <ArtForz> using like 65W
3387 2011-02-16 21:41:27 <RichardG> what's the difference between a peer irc client with nick and/or ident starting with u and another one with x?
3388 2011-02-16 21:41:32 <ArtForz> of course ATI GPUs are in a whole other league efficiency wise
3389 2011-02-16 21:42:01 renovatio has joined
3390 2011-02-16 21:42:21 <ArtForz> HD5970 can get >2Mh/W
3391 2011-02-16 21:42:38 <mmarker> Yea. Can't compete there
3392 2011-02-16 21:43:24 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3393 2011-02-16 21:44:05 <mmarker> Need to be stupid and convert the C sha. Code to run on the dso
3394 2011-02-16 21:44:08 <mmarker> Err...Daphne
3395 2011-02-16 21:44:20 <mmarker> Gah. DS freaking P
3396 2011-02-16 21:44:27 <ArtForz> hehehe
3397 2011-02-16 21:44:46 <ArtForz> well, my ASICs get about 22Mh/W ...
3398 2011-02-16 21:44:51 <mmarker> I think it'll be futile in performance
3399 2011-02-16 21:45:29 <ArtForz> with FPGAs 10Mh/W or so should be possible
3400 2011-02-16 21:46:17 <RichardG> when I get enough resources to I might try dns rerouting lfnet and see what happens
3401 2011-02-16 21:46:19 <ArtForz> with a real ASIC, probably >50Mh/W
3402 2011-02-16 21:46:27 <RichardG> ie. how would bitcoin work in a new pseudonetwork
3403 2011-02-16 21:46:54 <ArtForz> easy to test
3404 2011-02-16 21:47:20 <renovatio> hello I have a question: I'm at 2300 khash / s how long is that I have a bitcoin?
3405 2011-02-16 21:47:33 <ArtForz> run -noirc and use -connect/-addnode with a bunch of fresh nodes
3406 2011-02-16 21:48:00 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 2300
3407 2011-02-16 21:48:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2300 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 1 year, 28 weeks, 0 days, 21 hours, 30 minutes, and 45 seconds
3408 2011-02-16 21:48:26 <sipa> renovatio: on average that hashing rate will get you one block every 1.5 years
3409 2011-02-16 21:48:37 <JFK911> If you donate bitcoins to a charity how do you figure the income tax credit you get?
3410 2011-02-16 21:48:40 <sipa> renovatio: so the chanced of finding one are not very high
3411 2011-02-16 21:48:48 <RichardG> art: I'd rather use my own dns server pointing to an unreal3.2 install of my own
3412 2011-02-16 21:49:01 <ArtForz> and with a pool...
3413 2011-02-16 21:49:13 <ArtForz> ;;bc,gen 2300
3414 2011-02-16 21:49:14 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2300 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 0.0889843818674 BTC per day and 0.00370768257781 BTC per hour.
3415 2011-02-16 21:49:31 <sipa> renovatio: but if you insist on keep mining, you can join a pool indeed
3416 2011-02-16 21:49:57 bk128 has joined
3417 2011-02-16 21:49:57 bk128 has quit (Changing host)
3418 2011-02-16 21:49:57 bk128 has joined
3419 2011-02-16 21:50:10 <RichardG> also hate people yellin that the pool is now supposedly useless due to its high processing power
3420 2011-02-16 21:50:13 <RichardG> again, as slush said
3421 2011-02-16 21:50:23 <RichardG> it generates blocks faster, yes
3422 2011-02-16 21:50:28 <RichardG> but does not affect your daily pay
3423 2011-02-16 21:50:42 <sipa> it does, a bit
3424 2011-02-16 21:50:47 <ArtForz> yay, nearly a dime a day :P
3425 2011-02-16 21:51:34 <RichardG> CAddress addrConnect("92.243.23.21:6667"); // irc.lfnet.org
3426 2011-02-16 21:51:38 <RichardG> don't think it will be easy
3427 2011-02-16 21:51:58 <renovatio> what a pool indeed that I'm a beginner ?
3428 2011-02-16 21:52:08 bitcoiner has joined
3429 2011-02-16 21:52:18 <RichardG> hm the manual ip seems to apply only for tor
3430 2011-02-16 21:52:25 <sipa> renovatio: bitcoin awards people who find blocks by giving them 50 BTC
3431 2011-02-16 21:52:34 <sipa> however, it is very very difficulty to find a block
3432 2011-02-16 21:52:44 <renovatio> why?
3433 2011-02-16 21:52:49 <RichardG> oh, so now I get it
3434 2011-02-16 21:52:59 <RichardG> x IPs are behind proxies
3435 2011-02-16 21:53:04 <RichardG> u IPs are normal
3436 2011-02-16 21:53:09 <sipa> renovatio: the harder it is, the stronger the network is - read the whitepaper if you're interested in why :)
3437 2011-02-16 21:53:40 <sipa> renovatio: but you can join in if you want, only you'll on average generate one block every 1.5 years
3438 2011-02-16 21:53:53 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 265000
3439 2011-02-16 21:53:53 Mrcheesenips has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3440 2011-02-16 21:53:54 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 265000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 10.2525483456 BTC per day and 0.4271895144 BTC per hour.
3441 2011-02-16 21:54:07 <sipa> however that's huge uncertainty, you may well never find a block too
3442 2011-02-16 21:54:33 <RichardG> ArtForz: but a small question
3443 2011-02-16 21:54:37 <luke-jr> RichardG: what about NAT?
3444 2011-02-16 21:54:37 <midnightmagic> renovatio: satoshi/et al designed it that way. they wanted to make everyone do a hard problem which was 1) easy to verify, and 2) hard to cheat on. so they assumed sha256 was a randomizer and decided that if someone did a hash and the result was < X, then it must have taken them a lot of hashes to find that winning lottery ticket.
3445 2011-02-16 21:54:38 <sipa> so instead you can join a pool, which mines blocks frequently (by combining the power of a lot of people), and gives them small payouts but more frequently
3446 2011-02-16 21:54:41 <RichardG> will the client be able to sense it's on a new network
3447 2011-02-16 21:55:31 <midnightmagic> renovatio: and then they just reset X to some lower value every now and then to make sure it takes about two weeks to find that random winning lottery hash. :)
3448 2011-02-16 21:55:43 <renovatio> ok where i can join this community
3449 2011-02-16 21:55:55 <sipa> renovatio: slush's pool is at mining.bitcoin.cz
3450 2011-02-16 21:56:01 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, tested another 790fx mobo today, similar thing, only works with 3x 5970 :-[
3451 2011-02-16 21:56:15 <sipa> renovatio: oh the one thing not yet mentioned: the network adjusts the difficulty so that one block on average is found every 10 minutes - which means the more people try to join in, the harder it gets for everyone
3452 2011-02-16 21:56:26 <UukGoblin> I didn't get as far as failing kernel compilation however, I never got it to see 4 cards in lspci
3453 2011-02-16 21:56:51 <UukGoblin> tried changing raisers, tried different combinations of ports (with 3 graphics, with 4 were all the same), tried swapping cards
3454 2011-02-16 21:56:59 <renovatio> a ok
3455 2011-02-16 21:57:00 <UukGoblin> no more than 3x 5970 worked
3456 2011-02-16 21:57:06 * RichardG sets up a dummy unreal3.2 install
3457 2011-02-16 21:57:09 <UukGoblin> (upgraded the bios too, to 1G0)
3458 2011-02-16 21:57:20 <grubles> uukgoblin, is it your psu?
3459 2011-02-16 21:57:28 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3460 2011-02-16 21:57:31 <UukGoblin> grubles, jnope
3461 2011-02-16 21:57:53 <UukGoblin> tried with effectively 4 (or 2) different PSUs
3462 2011-02-16 21:57:57 <UukGoblin> all corsair AX850
3463 2011-02-16 21:58:24 <grubles> i have that same mobo, only 2 work with my 1200 watt corsair
3464 2011-02-16 21:58:29 <renovatio> it's the best way to generate more coin?
3465 2011-02-16 21:58:31 <midnightmagic> renovatio: err..  sorry, I meant what sipa said. 600 seconds, or ten minutes. not two weeks.
3466 2011-02-16 21:58:40 <UukGoblin> grubles, I got 3 to work on a single AX850
3467 2011-02-16 21:58:42 <renovatio> ok
3468 2011-02-16 21:58:48 <UukGoblin> took about 820W, just below the limit
3469 2011-02-16 21:59:37 <grubles> so youve tried 4 of the same psu, and none of them worked?
3470 2011-02-16 22:00:15 <cronopio> ;;bc,gen 7200
3471 2011-02-16 22:00:16 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 7200 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 0.278559804107 BTC per day and 0.0116066585044 BTC per hour.
3472 2011-02-16 22:00:25 <UukGoblin> grubles, it's not a PSU problem
3473 2011-02-16 22:00:40 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1240000
3474 2011-02-16 22:00:41 <cronopio> ;;bc,calc 7200
3475 2011-02-16 22:00:41 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1240000 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 47.974188485 BTC per day and 1.99892452021 BTC per hour.
3476 2011-02-16 22:00:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 7200 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 25 weeks, 4 days, 11 hours, 52 minutes, and 19 seconds
3477 2011-02-16 22:01:07 sabalaba has joined
3478 2011-02-16 22:02:00 <UukGoblin> grubles, I used different PSUs for the different mobos, but I didn't swap them around
3479 2011-02-16 22:02:09 <UukGoblin> all the PSUs seem to work
3480 2011-02-16 22:02:49 <grubles> hmm well just know that i could not get 3 or 4 x 5970 to work with my psu (1200 corsair)
3481 2011-02-16 22:03:01 <UukGoblin> mhm
3482 2011-02-16 22:03:20 <JFK911> You only need 12 volts to the cards, right?  Get an Astron supply from a hamfest or something
3483 2011-02-16 22:03:32 <UukGoblin> as I say: I had two boxes running with a single corsair AX850 powering 3x 5970
3484 2011-02-16 22:03:41 <JFK911> And then use a cheap chinese Antec trash to feed the rest of the computer
3485 2011-02-16 22:04:11 <midnightmagic> i got 4 5870 going with an AX1200 but i needed molex adapters because the damn thing didn't come with 8 PCIe connectors.. only 6.
3486 2011-02-16 22:04:12 <UukGoblin> JFK911, I /don't/ have a problem with the psu, it's with the mobo I think
3487 2011-02-16 22:04:34 <JFK911> Do you know what chipset?
3488 2011-02-16 22:04:49 <UukGoblin> hmm I have 4x 5770 working fine on one mobo on 1kW Antec
3489 2011-02-16 22:05:53 TD_ has joined
3490 2011-02-16 22:07:48 RichardG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3491 2011-02-16 22:09:59 Lachesis has joined
3492 2011-02-16 22:10:55 <Lachesis> someone say Lachesis; testing xchat integration with gnome
3493 2011-02-16 22:11:07 <nanotube> Lachesis: ping
3494 2011-02-16 22:11:13 <nanotube> (that's close enough hehe)
3495 2011-02-16 22:11:19 <Lachesis> nanotube, yeah, didn't work :(
3496 2011-02-16 22:11:22 <Lachesis> ty though
3497 2011-02-16 22:11:27 <nanotube> np :)
3498 2011-02-16 22:13:26 <JFK911> I was sort of thinking about using a PCIe-PCIe bridge to add a backplane that could plug into an x16 slot.
3499 2011-02-16 22:14:11 <foucist> JFK911: what does that do?
3500 2011-02-16 22:14:26 <JFK911> Give you 8 slots for PCIe
3501 2011-02-16 22:14:35 <JFK911> hopefully
3502 2011-02-16 22:14:43 <JFK911> maybe two bridges
3503 2011-02-16 22:14:45 <ArtForz> JFK911: priced that out, not really interesting
3504 2011-02-16 22:15:22 <JFK911> Yeah a ribbon with so many striplines will be a little exotic compared to what I usually do
3505 2011-02-16 22:15:31 <ArtForz> ?
3506 2011-02-16 22:15:35 <JFK911> And yeah if you have to buy it, it's too much profit
3507 2011-02-16 22:15:38 <UukGoblin> yay, ArtForz's here :-)
3508 2011-02-16 22:15:43 <foucist> what's the best way for building a gpu farm besides using cases or rackcases
3509 2011-02-16 22:15:49 <foucist> what about a caseless system..
3510 2011-02-16 22:16:03 RichardG has joined
3511 2011-02-16 22:16:06 <foucist> maybe hangers eh? ;)
3512 2011-02-16 22:16:21 <UukGoblin> so your ASICs work?
3513 2011-02-16 22:16:30 <ArtForz> well, for small values of "work"
3514 2011-02-16 22:16:39 <x6763> can a node (custom software) connect to another bitcoin node, do the version handshake, and then just send a new transaction out without dealing with all of the peer addresses and inventories?
3515 2011-02-16 22:16:54 <ArtForz> x6763: yes
3516 2011-02-16 22:16:57 <nanotube> ohyea, it's feb, you should have your asics now eh ArtForz :) so tell us all about your progress. :)
3517 2011-02-16 22:17:08 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, how small? <:-S
3518 2011-02-16 22:17:09 <x6763> ArtForz: cool, thanks
3519 2011-02-16 22:17:28 <UukGoblin> nanotube, he baked them yesterday cause the moisture seal was broken
3520 2011-02-16 22:17:59 <ArtForz> they draw power and I can send commands, responses are garbled
3521 2011-02-16 22:18:11 <RichardG> ArtForz: personal net works
3522 2011-02-16 22:18:12 <RichardG> * uBWYQ6hL6C9ySrR (uBWYQ6hL6C@cloak-5C779A22) has joined #bitcoin
3523 2011-02-16 22:18:32 <ArtForz> I have to play some with clk-input timing on the controller FPGA
3524 2011-02-16 22:18:53 <RichardG> if you want to test it, add 187.15.49.42 irc.lfnet.org to hosts and start bitcoin[d]
3525 2011-02-16 22:19:13 <UukGoblin> ok so one step further than yesterday
3526 2011-02-16 22:19:17 foucist has left ()
3527 2011-02-16 22:19:23 <ArtForz> urrr, duh, now I know why
3528 2011-02-16 22:19:36 <nanotube> mmm
3529 2011-02-16 22:19:41 <sipa> don't tell me you made an endianness mistake in the design!
3530 2011-02-16 22:19:45 <ArtForz> nah
3531 2011-02-16 22:20:19 <ArtForz> forgot the delay caused by the LVDS clock driver
3532 2011-02-16 22:21:19 <RichardG> ArtForz: even routing lfnet to 127.0.0.1 makes it use some sort of autodiscovery and start downloading the main block chain
3533 2011-02-16 22:21:26 <ArtForz> yes
3534 2011-02-16 22:21:36 <RichardG> i think there's a local db of peers i ever used
3535 2011-02-16 22:21:39 <ArtForz> if it cant connect to IRc it uses the hardcoded fallback node IPs
3536 2011-02-16 22:21:39 <RichardG> what was its name
3537 2011-02-16 22:22:10 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, did you manage to run 4x 5970 on the 790fx mobo?
3538 2011-02-16 22:22:14 <ArtForz> yes
3539 2011-02-16 22:22:31 <UukGoblin> did you need any special procedures with that?
3540 2011-02-16 22:22:35 <ArtForz> no
3541 2011-02-16 22:22:38 <UukGoblin> hrm.
3542 2011-02-16 22:22:58 <UukGoblin> I just tried a second one today and got different results, but no more than 3x 5970 working
3543 2011-02-16 22:23:03 <ArtForz> what OS?
3544 2011-02-16 22:23:05 <UukGoblin> the fourth never showed up in lspci
3545 2011-02-16 22:23:14 <ArtForz> thats... weird
3546 2011-02-16 22:23:14 <UukGoblin> ubuntu 10.04
3547 2011-02-16 22:23:17 <RichardG> ArtForz: but i think there was a switch to disable the hardcoded list
3548 2011-02-16 22:23:19 <ArtForz> x86 or amd64 ?
3549 2011-02-16 22:23:23 <UukGoblin> amd64
3550 2011-02-16 22:23:29 <ArtForz> hrrrm. really weird
3551 2011-02-16 22:23:47 <UukGoblin> the first mobo saw them in lspci, but was failing when diablominer was compiling the 7th kernel
3552 2011-02-16 22:23:54 cdecker has joined
3553 2011-02-16 22:23:58 <ArtForz> it sounds like you have power issues
3554 2011-02-16 22:23:59 noagendamarket has joined
3555 2011-02-16 22:24:00 <UukGoblin> as in, the driver failed the compilation
3556 2011-02-16 22:24:19 <RichardG> oh wait.
3557 2011-02-16 22:24:20 <RichardG> <ArtForz> if it cant connect to IRc it uses the hardcoded fallback node IPs
3558 2011-02-16 22:24:27 <RichardG> +
3559 2011-02-16 22:24:28 <RichardG> * uBWYQ6hL6C9ySrR (uBWYQ6hL6C@cloak-5C779A22) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
3560 2011-02-16 22:24:29 <RichardG> = ?
3561 2011-02-16 22:24:34 cdecker has left ()
3562 2011-02-16 22:24:37 <RichardG> didnt intend to paste a quit
3563 2011-02-16 22:24:41 <ArtForz> how much ampage on the rail that feeds the 24-pin ?
3564 2011-02-16 22:24:42 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, yeah next thing I'll try will be to tweak the raisers so that the power isn't drawn from the mobo on pci-ex slots
3565 2011-02-16 22:24:42 <RichardG> was supposed to paste a join
3566 2011-02-16 22:24:47 <ArtForz> yea
3567 2011-02-16 22:25:01 <ArtForz> 4*75W over 2 pins of the 24pin = uhhhh...
3568 2011-02-16 22:25:04 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
3569 2011-02-16 22:25:14 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3570 2011-02-16 22:25:15 <UukGoblin> does it take as much as 75W from the mobo? :-O
3571 2011-02-16 22:25:18 <ArtForz> yea
3572 2011-02-16 22:25:20 <RichardG> would "if bitcoin can't find peers on IRC" be a proper term then
3573 2011-02-16 22:25:22 <UukGoblin> shiit
3574 2011-02-16 22:25:27 <UukGoblin> I thought it was more like... 15
3575 2011-02-16 22:25:45 <RichardG> -test.bitcoin.network- *** Notice -- Client connecting on port 6667: uBWYQ6hL6C9ySrR (uBWYQ6hL6C@localhost) [clients]
3576 2011-02-16 22:26:24 <ArtForz> mrb measured 177W with 4 stock 5970s
3577 2011-02-16 22:26:50 <UukGoblin> on the 24pin wires?
3578 2011-02-16 22:26:54 <ArtForz> yes
3579 2011-02-16 22:27:03 <ArtForz> on the 2 12V wires on the 24pin
3580 2011-02-16 22:27:07 <UukGoblin> I don't have a clamp ammeter that can measure DC current :-/
3581 2011-02-16 22:27:15 <UukGoblin> so that's like 45W per card anyway
3582 2011-02-16 22:27:19 <UukGoblin> still quite a lot
3583 2011-02-16 22:27:22 <ArtForz> after a while his 24 pin connector started discoloring...
3584 2011-02-16 22:27:23 <renovatio> when i start minner i ve this message "error": {"message": "Please set system donation to keep your workers running. Read http://bit.ly/hDzEBd for more info.", "code": -129}, "id": "1", "result": null}
3585 2011-02-16 22:27:42 <ArtForz> renovatio: tried reading http://bit.ly/hDzEBd ?
3586 2011-02-16 22:27:44 <UukGoblin> heh the corsair were wise and made them all black ;-S
3587 2011-02-16 22:27:45 <sipa> renovatio: and did you set the donation? :)
3588 2011-02-16 22:28:01 <RichardG> any way to disable the hardcoded fallback node list?
3589 2011-02-16 22:28:02 <renovatio> yes 2%
3590 2011-02-16 22:28:04 cdecker has joined
3591 2011-02-16 22:28:07 <phantomcircuit> So let me get this right, there is a scripting language designed specifically for bitcoins, that is embedded in every transaction, which is used to determine input/outputs for that transaction
3592 2011-02-16 22:28:10 <RichardG> I'm trying to do a personal network by rerouting IRC
3593 2011-02-16 22:28:10 <phantomcircuit> is that accurate?
3594 2011-02-16 22:28:18 <RichardG> any way to disable the hardcoded fallback node list?
3595 2011-02-16 22:28:27 <ArtForz> phantomcircuit: no
3596 2011-02-16 22:28:28 <cdecker> Did I miss ArtForz?
3597 2011-02-16 22:28:29 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it is used to verify transaction inputs
3598 2011-02-16 22:28:33 <ArtForz> cdecker: no?
3599 2011-02-16 22:28:33 <phantomcircuit> RichardG, compile your own
3600 2011-02-16 22:28:34 <cdecker> Ah there you are
3601 2011-02-16 22:28:53 <cdecker> I thought you might be the one who knows an answer
3602 2011-02-16 22:28:54 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: tx inputs and outputs are in the tx.  the script tells you how to verify a tx.
3603 2011-02-16 22:28:55 <phantomcircuit> RichardG, the ircd address is hardcoded w/ and ip
3604 2011-02-16 22:29:06 <cdecker> I have a used 5970
3605 2011-02-16 22:29:16 <andrew12> I'll take it ;)
3606 2011-02-16 22:29:34 <RichardG> phantomcircuit: using hosts i proved this is not true unless if you're using tor (which uses the ip)
3607 2011-02-16 22:29:38 <sipa> renovatio: strange then
3608 2011-02-16 22:29:39 <cdecker> Using DiabloMiner the second core gives a lot of Invalid blocks
3609 2011-02-16 22:29:41 <RichardG> -test.bitcoin.network- *** Notice -- Client connecting on port 6667: uBWYQ6hL6C9ySrR (uBWYQ6hL6C@localhost) [clients]
3610 2011-02-16 22:29:42 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, i dont get it x|
3611 2011-02-16 22:29:43 <RichardG> raw windows 0.3.19
3612 2011-02-16 22:29:56 <cdecker> And the cpu is all over the place
3613 2011-02-16 22:30:01 <ArtForz> cdecker: sounds like crossfire
3614 2011-02-16 22:30:03 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, is this ecc dsa specific?
3615 2011-02-16 22:30:07 <renovatio> i wait 5 minutes
3616 2011-02-16 22:30:07 <cdecker> Could it be because crossfire?
3617 2011-02-16 22:30:12 <cdecker> Phew
3618 2011-02-16 22:30:27 <cdecker> I was dreading a faulty core
3619 2011-02-16 22:30:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: the original idea was to make it possible to have flexible transaction types, such as multi-party escrow.  Right now the script bytecodes fit into a couple templated patterns at the top of Solver() in script.cpp
3620 2011-02-16 22:30:45 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
3621 2011-02-16 22:30:45 noagendamarket has joined
3622 2011-02-16 22:30:47 <cdecker> Is there a sure way to turn xfire off?
3623 2011-02-16 22:30:52 <ArtForz> no
3624 2011-02-16 22:30:59 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, multi party escrow?
3625 2011-02-16 22:31:02 <ArtForz> maybe try sacrificing a chicken or something
3626 2011-02-16 22:31:09 <cdecker> Hm?
3627 2011-02-16 22:31:10 <phantomcircuit> how would that even...
3628 2011-02-16 22:31:35 <ArtForz> or just try various combinations of crossfire disabling/chain deleting with X runnign and stopped until it sticks ...
3629 2011-02-16 22:31:36 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=750.0
3630 2011-02-16 22:31:46 renovatio has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3631 2011-02-16 22:32:14 <grubles> cdecker: what os are you on
3632 2011-02-16 22:32:21 <cdecker> Ubuntu 10.10
3633 2011-02-16 22:32:43 <ArtForz> I think xelister can tell you about the fun of crossfire disablage :P
3634 2011-02-16 22:32:44 <cdecker> fglrx 8.801 btw
3635 2011-02-16 22:32:58 <cdecker> Hehe maybe I should contact him
3636 2011-02-16 22:33:09 <cdecker> What are you using ArtForz btw?
3637 2011-02-16 22:33:16 <ArtForz> debian sid
3638 2011-02-16 22:33:18 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, neat that's even better than trusted escrow
3639 2011-02-16 22:33:26 <ArtForz> 2.6.32, fglrx 10.10
3640 2011-02-16 22:33:26 andrew12 has quit (Changing host)
3641 2011-02-16 22:33:26 andrew12 has joined
3642 2011-02-16 22:33:39 <cdecker> That might be it
3643 2011-02-16 22:33:49 <cdecker> I'm using fglrx 10.12
3644 2011-02-16 22:33:58 <ArtForz> doubt it
3645 2011-02-16 22:33:59 <cdecker> Will try that next then
3646 2011-02-16 22:34:02 rame has joined
3647 2011-02-16 22:34:07 <cdecker> Hehe
3648 2011-02-16 22:34:15 <xelister> ArtForz:  sure I can, to whom
3649 2011-02-16 22:34:20 <xelister> ah cdecker
3650 2011-02-16 22:34:26 <cdecker> Ok you just saed me an hour cursing
3651 2011-02-16 22:34:28 <xelister> cdecker: let me tell you an interesting fackt about Ati Drivers
3652 2011-02-16 22:34:35 <cdecker> Yep, I'm the poor deil
3653 2011-02-16 22:34:40 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: script engine used to be _very_ flexible, where you might create transactions that validate based on an arbitrary set of encoded conditions.  If a miner accepts such a weird transaction, it gets into a block.  But ArtForz (IIRC?) found a bunch of holes and potential algo attacks, so most ops are disabled now.
3654 2011-02-16 22:34:40 <cdecker> devil
3655 2011-02-16 22:34:46 <xelister> Ati Drivers are written by entire department of around 30 software engeneerses
3656 2011-02-16 22:34:59 <ArtForz> yep
3657 2011-02-16 22:35:09 <xelister> the cool thing is that where all recently all rebased to Hong Kong office
3658 2011-02-16 22:35:14 <xelister> in order to suck an epic dong
3659 2011-02-16 22:35:17 <xelister> and they do it ever since
3660 2011-02-16 22:35:19 <cdecker> Hehe
3661 2011-02-16 22:35:26 <ArtForz> you could cause all kinds of fun cpu and mem exhaustion with tx scripts
3662 2011-02-16 22:35:50 <cdecker> So what should I try xelister
3663 2011-02-16 22:35:50 devon_hillard_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3664 2011-02-16 22:36:05 <xelister> cdecker: you could write an angry letter for one
3665 2011-02-16 22:36:11 devon_hillard has joined
3666 2011-02-16 22:36:11 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
3667 2011-02-16 22:36:11 devon_hillard has joined
3668 2011-02-16 22:36:13 <xelister> other then that, you can work with the shitty 'drivers' they provide
3669 2011-02-16 22:36:20 <jgarzik> slush: your server should return application/json Content-Type for JSON-RPC.  Currently, it returns text/html, which is incorrect.
3670 2011-02-16 22:36:20 <ArtForz> and they weren't even wrapped in a try/catch, so with the correct script you could insta-crash any node by simply sending it a specially crafted tx
3671 2011-02-16 22:36:23 <sipa> ArtForz: hmm, the script language is not turing complete, is it?
3672 2011-02-16 22:36:26 <ArtForz> nope
3673 2011-02-16 22:36:27 <xelister> it is possible to eventually get 5970 cards to work without xfire
3674 2011-02-16 22:36:32 <xelister> but it includes some fucking around
3675 2011-02-16 22:36:54 <cdecker> Hehe, what kind of fiddling?
3676 2011-02-16 22:36:55 <ArtForz> no loops and limited size
3677 2011-02-16 22:37:08 <cronopio> what happen when the worker said PROOF OF WORK RESULT: true?
3678 2011-02-16 22:37:19 <cronopio> Im using the jgarzik worker
3679 2011-02-16 22:37:21 <sipa> cronopio: it means you just got lucky
3680 2011-02-16 22:37:34 <cronopio> sipa: found new block??
3681 2011-02-16 22:37:43 <sipa> are you using a pool?
3682 2011-02-16 22:37:57 <cronopio> sipa: mining.bitcoin.cz
3683 2011-02-16 22:37:58 <xelister> btw ArtForz did you reviewd the bitcoin-over-freenet?  it is not finall or super polished version yet, but an o.k. draft I hope :)
3684 2011-02-16 22:38:03 <ArtForz> nope
3685 2011-02-16 22:38:16 <sipa> cronopio: in that case you most likely just found a share for the pool, not a full block
3686 2011-02-16 22:38:17 <xelister> diagram: http://imagebin.org/138208
3687 2011-02-16 22:38:41 <xelister> protocol specyfiaction draft on end of: https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2312.0
3688 2011-02-16 22:38:53 <cdecker> xelister: should I just create and delete random chains or what?
3689 2011-02-16 22:39:17 <cronopio> sipa: haaa ok, great!
3690 2011-02-16 22:39:18 <ArtForz> sounds a bit like bitcoin meet FMS ...
3691 2011-02-16 22:39:18 <xelister> if something there is not very good, then it just means it can be improved :)  but anyway implementation should start with like 25% of ideas there imo because it is quite a lot of work anyway
3692 2011-02-16 22:39:34 <xelister> ArtForz: yes, it is similar distribution style to FMS
3693 2011-02-16 22:39:44 <xelister> I guess this is best possible
3694 2011-02-16 22:39:45 <sipa> xelister: its, not it's *ducks*
3695 2011-02-16 22:39:49 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, (1 bitcoin = 100,000,000 nanocoins)
3696 2011-02-16 22:39:50 <phantomcircuit> lol
3697 2011-02-16 22:40:21 <ArtForz> what weird kind of nano is that?
3698 2011-02-16 22:40:44 <ArtForz> did it find an order of magnitude in the street?
3699 2011-02-16 22:40:55 <sipa> 1 bitcoin = 100 bitcents, 1 bitcent = 1000 millicents, 1 millicent = 1000 microcents
3700 2011-02-16 22:40:58 <sipa> nah
3701 2011-02-16 22:41:21 <midnightmagic> centibits
3702 2011-02-16 22:41:36 <midnightmagic> millibicents?
3703 2011-02-16 22:41:39 <phantomcircuit> id fix it but i'e lost my wiki password
3704 2011-02-16 22:41:40 <phantomcircuit> lol
3705 2011-02-16 22:41:59 <ArtForz> yep, microcents :P
3706 2011-02-16 22:42:28 <RichardG> gotta go, also i cant believe i cant disable the fallback nodes list without recompiling
3707 2011-02-16 22:42:34 RichardG has quit (Quit: The application mIRC exited unexpectedly. Mac OS X and other applications are not affected.)
3708 2011-02-16 22:42:44 <sipa> ehm
3709 2011-02-16 22:42:48 <ArtForz> or nanodecacoins
3710 2011-02-16 22:42:53 <sipa> why does it say that in the quit message?
3711 2011-02-16 22:43:36 <phantomcircuit> it's a joke
3712 2011-02-16 22:43:47 <phantomcircuit> that's the error you get on os x when something crashes
3713 2011-02-16 22:43:49 <xelister> anyone interested in buying 5970 in EU (or Poland)? if yes then what prices?
3714 2011-02-16 22:43:51 <phantomcircuit> it's almost always a lie
3715 2011-02-16 22:43:57 chaord has joined
3716 2011-02-16 22:46:44 <cdecker> xelister: why? do you have some?
3717 2011-02-16 22:46:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, oh i get it
3718 2011-02-16 22:47:25 <phantomcircuit> you need the correct first half of the script for the second half to verify
3719 2011-02-16 22:48:08 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units
3720 2011-02-16 22:48:20 <jgarzik> grin...   My pure-python CPU miner, with a whopping 42 Khash/sec:  http://yyz.us/bitcoin/pyminer.py
3721 2011-02-16 22:48:39 <sipa> nice number
3722 2011-02-16 22:48:43 <nathan7> heh
3723 2011-02-16 22:48:43 <luke-jr> base unit in SI is Micro-Centi-BitCoin (μcBTC) :p
3724 2011-02-16 22:49:08 <jgarzik> of course, optimization suggestions (besides "rewrite it in OpenCL") welcome :)  I'm still a python newbie.
3725 2011-02-16 22:49:13 * nathan7 taps niekie/Sirius/tcatm/UukGoblin/Xunie
3726 2011-02-16 22:49:14 <luke-jr> jgarzik: next you need an ECMAScript miner so you can just open browsers to your server to mind on random PCs :P
3727 2011-02-16 22:49:21 <nathan7> :D
3728 2011-02-16 22:49:32 <sipa> let's see, 42 kHash/s
3729 2011-02-16 22:49:36 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I think someone already did a javascript miner, and got like 4 khash/sec
3730 2011-02-16 22:49:43 <jgarzik> ;;bc,calc 42
3731 2011-02-16 22:49:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 42 Khps, given current difficulty of 25997.87992881 , is 84 years, 15 weeks, 5 days, 12 hours, 21 minutes, and 17 seconds
3732 2011-02-16 22:49:45 <sipa> oh, 4 kHash/s, even better
3733 2011-02-16 22:49:46 <nathan7> jgarzik: already using psyco?
3734 2011-02-16 22:49:52 <sipa> get that on a million machines
3735 2011-02-16 22:50:01 <sipa> gets you 42 GHash/s
3736 2011-02-16 22:50:04 <sipa> decent!
3737 2011-02-16 22:50:06 <midnightmagic> hey, art; your changes you tried to get into mainline re: flow control during DoS.. i'd be happy to participate in direct democracy and run with those changes for my bitcoind if you've published them somewhere.
3738 2011-02-16 22:50:19 <jgarzik> nathan7: not familiar with it
3739 2011-02-16 22:50:28 <nathan7> jgarzik: import psyco;psyco.full()
3740 2011-02-16 22:50:36 <xelister> cdecker: yes Im ordering some probably
3741 2011-02-16 22:50:37 <nathan7> jgarzik: x86 only though
3742 2011-02-16 22:50:53 <cdecker> At what price?
3743 2011-02-16 22:50:58 doublec has joined
3744 2011-02-16 22:50:59 doublec has quit (Changing host)
3745 2011-02-16 22:50:59 doublec has joined
3746 2011-02-16 22:51:03 <xelister> cdecker: not sure yet.
3747 2011-02-16 22:51:08 <cdecker> Switzerland is incredibly expensive when it comes to hardware
3748 2011-02-16 22:51:34 <cdecker> Well let me know ^^
3749 2011-02-16 22:51:54 <cdecker> But first I got to play with fglrx and xfire to make it work...
3750 2011-02-16 22:52:15 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, functions are expensive in cpython, something about stack space fragmentation
3751 2011-02-16 22:52:15 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: gavin made a pull request that covers some "flow control" bits
3752 2011-02-16 22:52:27 <xelister> cdecker: you are in Switzerland? cool
3753 2011-02-16 22:52:29 aGH-[i] has joined
3754 2011-02-16 22:52:36 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: functions includes class methods?
3755 2011-02-16 22:53:00 <cdecker> Well, it's cool if you don't live here :-)
3756 2011-02-16 22:53:14 * jgarzik hasn't found a share yet, so I've no idea if pyminer works.  Mining away.... :)
3757 2011-02-16 22:53:24 <midnightmagic> jgarzik that was for phantom's stuff last night? and what does a pull request mean again when gavin's the one doing the work?
3758 2011-02-16 22:54:12 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: creating a pull request means its tracked with various github gadgetry
3759 2011-02-16 22:54:18 <jgarzik> people can comment on pull requests, etc.
3760 2011-02-16 22:54:29 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3761 2011-02-16 22:54:30 dirtyfilthy has joined
3762 2011-02-16 22:54:48 <jgarzik> "Denial of service flood prevention" pull request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/72
3763 2011-02-16 22:54:50 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yes
3764 2011-02-16 22:55:18 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Gah, apologies for wasting your time with a question like that. i thought it was a developer process term you guys were using.
3765 2011-02-16 22:55:22 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik,
3766 2011-02-16 22:55:25 <phantomcircuit> http://codepad.org/J6B11XXz
3767 2011-02-16 22:56:07 Diablo-D3 has joined
3768 2011-02-16 22:56:36 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, obviously that's an exaggeration... but still
3769 2011-02-16 22:57:50 <ArtForz> jgarzik: that looks a lot like what I implemented for my node back around r148 or so
3770 2011-02-16 22:59:09 theymos has joined
3771 2011-02-16 22:59:26 <jgarzik> woo!  up to 43 Khash/sec, by folding "doublesha" function into "work" function, making all hot path code one function
3772 2011-02-16 22:59:28 <jgarzik> :)
3773 2011-02-16 22:59:41 <jgarzik> ArtForz look out now
3774 2011-02-16 23:00:23 * jgarzik updates the URL above
3775 2011-02-16 23:00:25 <ArtForz> *implements sha256 in 6510 ASM*
3776 2011-02-16 23:01:10 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3777 2011-02-16 23:04:24 <KBme> eww python
3778 2011-02-16 23:05:44 <ArtForz> you mean hssss, python
3779 2011-02-16 23:06:08 nathan7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3780 2011-02-16 23:06:28 <KBme> though i guess for this it doesn't really matter if it's in c or python
3781 2011-02-16 23:07:52 <JFK911> nice, mining fick-20
3782 2011-02-16 23:08:07 <JFK911> oops vic-20
3783 2011-02-16 23:08:36 <xelister> ArtForz: want to be cool?
3784 2011-02-16 23:08:47 <xelister> Implement Freenet node in 6150 ASM
3785 2011-02-16 23:08:47 <ArtForz> move to antarctica.
3786 2011-02-16 23:08:48 <xelister> like a boos
3787 2011-02-16 23:08:50 <xelister> like a boss
3788 2011-02-16 23:13:41 <rame> like a boss
3789 2011-02-16 23:13:44 <rame> I'm the boss
3790 2011-02-16 23:14:58 <Xunie> No, I'm the boss, I got the ops.
3791 2011-02-16 23:15:00 <Xunie> HARR HARR
3792 2011-02-16 23:15:45 foucist has joined
3793 2011-02-16 23:15:51 chromicant has joined
3794 2011-02-16 23:16:31 <foucist> does anyone think that things like freenet could be significantly faster if they took advantage of opencl on machines with good gpus?
3795 2011-02-16 23:16:39 molecular has joined
3796 2011-02-16 23:16:51 <foucist> i was thinking that bitcoins might be the killer app for freenet
3797 2011-02-16 23:17:17 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3798 2011-02-16 23:17:19 <bonsaikitten> foucist: no, freenet is slow because of the routing
3799 2011-02-16 23:17:23 <dirtyfilthy> getting freenet to work is the killer app for freenet
3800 2011-02-16 23:17:38 <foucist> hm
3801 2011-02-16 23:17:41 <hozer> HAH
3802 2011-02-16 23:17:45 <bonsaikitten> dirtyfilthy: keep the content address layer, make the rest nice, done!
3803 2011-02-16 23:17:46 cdecker has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3804 2011-02-16 23:17:58 <doublec> some people already use bitcoin on freenet
3805 2011-02-16 23:18:00 <chromicant> What about i2p2?
3806 2011-02-16 23:18:03 <doublec> I've seen the odd freesite with addresses
3807 2011-02-16 23:18:11 <dirtyfilthy> oh man, bonsai kittens, brings back memories
3808 2011-02-16 23:18:17 mmarker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3809 2011-02-16 23:18:36 <doublec> but I'm not sure running something that takes half a gig of memory, all your bandwidth and cpu, just to use bitcoin will be a killer app :)
3810 2011-02-16 23:19:55 <ArtForz> all cpu? not really.
3811 2011-02-16 23:20:37 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
3812 2011-02-16 23:20:54 <ArtForz> but disk access with a large store is crazy.
3813 2011-02-16 23:21:00 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, common misconception, initial startup is a bitch
3814 2011-02-16 23:21:11 <doublec> it often took up all my cpu on my vps
3815 2011-02-16 23:21:12 cdecker has joined
3816 2011-02-16 23:21:21 <doublec> it'd start off low then after a few days would be at 90-100%
3817 2011-02-16 23:21:50 <ArtForz> my node usually runs <20% cpu
3818 2011-02-16 23:22:28 <ArtForz> really beats the shit out of the i/o subsystem though
3819 2011-02-16 23:22:47 <doublec> yep
3820 2011-02-16 23:23:33 jwalck has joined
3821 2011-02-16 23:23:54 <ArtForz> wonder if tiered storage could help there
3822 2011-02-16 23:24:43 <phantomcircuit> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/486.html
3823 2011-02-16 23:24:46 <phantomcircuit> that's hilarious
3824 2011-02-16 23:25:03 <phantomcircuit> basically every single arcade on the planet is guilty of a felony
3825 2011-02-16 23:25:13 <ArtForz> never checked what part is accessed so much, if its only stuff like the bloom filters then putting those on a SSD should help a lot
3826 2011-02-16 23:25:54 <ArtForz> of course if its simply lots of random access into the ssk/chk stores then ... well, add more spindles of spinning rust
3827 2011-02-16 23:26:54 <phantomcircuit> or just use a system that's more aggressive about caching
3828 2011-02-16 23:27:01 <phantomcircuit> <3 UPS
3829 2011-02-16 23:27:23 <ArtForz> well, it is doing quite a bit of caching already
3830 2011-02-16 23:29:40 <JFK911> phantomcircuit: That's not money
3831 2011-02-16 23:30:45 <phantomcircuit> JFK911, yes neither are liberty dollars ;)
3832 2011-02-16 23:31:13 <JFK911> Those look like currency
3833 2011-02-16 23:31:29 <JFK911> It's intended to be circulated generally
3834 2011-02-16 23:31:43 <JFK911> By the way, do you know if practicing law without a license is a misdemeanor or a felony?
3835 2011-02-16 23:31:50 <JFK911> I'm not a lawyer, so I can't wag my finger.
3836 2011-02-16 23:32:15 <phantomcircuit> it's a felony
3837 2011-02-16 23:32:42 <phantomcircuit> it's rarely enforced and practically impossible to prosecture
3838 2011-02-16 23:32:46 <phantomcircuit> prosecute
3839 2011-02-16 23:33:03 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3840 2011-02-16 23:33:14 <phantomcircuit> the difference between legal advice and legal research is pretty hard to prove
3841 2011-02-16 23:34:16 <JFK911> And what if you suppose a conclusion?
3842 2011-02-16 23:34:53 <phantomcircuit> you have to be clearly purporting to provide legal council
3843 2011-02-16 23:36:28 <sipa> slush: i'm seeing like one in 10 submitted shares fail
3844 2011-02-16 23:37:03 <jgarzik> Dumb python local-app-module question.  if I have a python script myprog.py, and I want to import a class BitcoinRPC from file bitcoin.py... can myprog.py and bitcoin.py co-exist in the same filesystem directory?  what would myprog.py's 'import' statement look like?
3845 2011-02-16 23:37:32 nathan7 has joined
3846 2011-02-16 23:38:11 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, from bitcoin import BitcoinRPC
3847 2011-02-16 23:41:50 RBecker has quit (Quit: You're the only one that understands. The only one that cares. The only one that cares. The only one that I love.)
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3850 2011-02-16 23:42:47 RBecker has joined
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3856 2011-02-16 23:54:19 <cdecker> Goddamit, AMD is killing me...
3857 2011-02-16 23:55:43 <RBecker> Needs more GPU
3858 2011-02-16 23:55:52 * nathan7 stabs cdecker with an Intel Core2Duo
3859 2011-02-16 23:55:59 * nathan7 hops off to bed
3860 2011-02-16 23:56:06 * RBecker stabs nathan7 with a P3
3861 2011-02-16 23:56:07 <nanotube> jgarzik: yea what phantomcircuit said... just stick them into the same dir, and no problems.
3862 2011-02-16 23:56:36 <nathan7> nanotube: HEY
3863 2011-02-16 23:56:47 <nathan7> nanotube: gribble doesn't like me anymore
3864 2011-02-16 23:56:54 <nanotube> ;;hostmask nathan7
3865 2011-02-16 23:56:54 <gribble> nathan7!~nathan@unaffiliated/nathan7
3866 2011-02-16 23:57:00 <nanotube> nanotube: cycle the channel maybe? :)
3867 2011-02-16 23:57:08 <nanotube> bet you joined before your cloaked or smth.
3868 2011-02-16 23:57:12 <nathan7> I did
3869 2011-02-16 23:57:14 nathan7 has left ()
3870 2011-02-16 23:57:14 nathan7 has joined
3871 2011-02-16 23:57:19 <nanotube> mmm
3872 2011-02-16 23:57:21 <nanotube> gribble is slacking.
3873 2011-02-16 23:57:22 <nanotube> heh.
3874 2011-02-16 23:57:23 <nathan7> oh, identd is broken
3875 2011-02-16 23:57:41 nathan7 has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
3876 2011-02-16 23:57:46 nathan7 has joined
3877 2011-02-16 23:57:48 <cdecker> 15th time I recreated that damn xorg.conf file and still not working
3878 2011-02-16 23:57:53 <nanotube> there it is nathan7 :)
3879 2011-02-16 23:57:54 <nathan7> pow
3880 2011-02-16 23:58:19 <cdecker> But I get a better performance if I configure just one core of the 5970, far from optimal...
3881 2011-02-16 23:58:39 <nathan7> =)
3882 2011-02-16 23:58:41 <nathan7> /away zZzZ
3883 2011-02-16 23:59:27 <hozer> I really wonder what percentages of the total bitcoin found so far is in the wallets of people on this channel
3884 2011-02-16 23:59:43 <cdecker> My guess: 75%