1 2011-02-23 00:00:13 <doublec> nice!
2 2011-02-23 00:01:26 <nanotube> toad_: you know, you don't really need to build from git all the time. you can just run a release.
3 2011-02-23 00:01:54 <nanotube> toad_: and... fwiw, a lot of people do use mybitcoin and haven't complained so far. but i personally prefer my coins in my own wallet. :)
4 2011-02-23 00:01:54 <toad_> is it signed?
5 2011-02-23 00:02:28 <nanotube> toad_: yea the release announcements feature on sourceforge is long gone - best way is to just subscribe to the announce mailing list.
6 2011-02-23 00:02:50 <nanotube> as far as whether the release is signed... not that i know of. maybe this latest one gavin will push out a gpg signature along with it.
7 2011-02-23 00:02:55 <nanotube> gavinandresen: --^ :)
8 2011-02-23 00:03:11 <toad_> okay so my thinking is if i subscribe to te mailing list, and check back say once a month, that should be sufficient to avoid major security issues
9 2011-02-23 00:03:45 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
10 2011-02-23 00:04:22 <toad_> one other thing: when i build should i checkout a release tag?
11 2011-02-23 00:04:47 BlueMatt has joined
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14 2011-02-23 00:05:21 * toad_ is just building the daemon, i assume the client connects to the daemon i.e. the daemon is fully supported?
15 2011-02-23 00:05:28 <toad_> s/client/gui
16 2011-02-23 00:05:39 <tcatm> nope
17 2011-02-23 00:05:48 <toad_> nope to which?
18 2011-02-23 00:05:54 <gavinandresen> toad_: git checkout v0.3.20
19 2011-02-23 00:05:59 <toad_> gavinandresen: right
20 2011-02-23 00:06:06 <nanotube> toad_: gui doesn't connect to daemon.
21 2011-02-23 00:06:06 <toad_> checkout the tag and build it, yeah
22 2011-02-23 00:06:10 <tcatm> GUI is "hardcoded"
23 2011-02-23 00:06:17 <toad_> but it is built from the same code?
24 2011-02-23 00:06:29 <tcatm> So you either start only the daemon or daemon + gui in one process
25 2011-02-23 00:06:33 <gavinandresen> toad_ : yes, bitcoind is built from the same source as the GUI bitcion
26 2011-02-23 00:06:36 <toad_> there will never (hopefully) be critical security issues in the daemon but not the gui?
27 2011-02-23 00:06:55 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
28 2011-02-23 00:07:08 <tcatm> we're in the process of seperating GUI and daemon
29 2011-02-23 00:07:09 <gavinandresen> If there is a critical security issue in the daemon (bitcoind) then there that same security issue is in the gui
30 2011-02-23 00:08:38 <toad_> okay
31 2011-02-23 00:08:53 phantomcircuit has joined
32 2011-02-23 00:09:13 <toad_> so if i consider the likelihood of a remote code exploit in the C code vs the likelihood of mybitcoin stealing coins, the former is probably marginally less likely
33 2011-02-23 00:09:22 <toad_> (meaning no offence to mybitcoin)
34 2011-02-23 00:11:15 <gavinandresen> toad_: yes. Are you going to have a fixed address for receiving bitcoins, or run a daemon and generate a new address for every potential donor?
35 2011-02-23 00:11:39 <toad_> gavinandresen: advantage to the latter being?
36 2011-02-23 00:11:58 <gavinandresen> toad_ : If you run a fixed donation address, you don't have to run bitcoin except for when you want to send your bitcoins somewhere. But everybody knows how much you've received to that address.
37 2011-02-23 00:12:06 <gavinandresen> (which is either a bug or a feature)
38 2011-02-23 00:12:14 <toad_> gavinandresen: that's a feature from our pov
39 2011-02-23 00:12:23 <toad_> gavinandresen: as is not having to run it constantly
40 2011-02-23 00:12:25 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
41 2011-02-23 00:12:39 <toad_> gavinandresen: we can receive coins while offline?
42 2011-02-23 00:12:45 <gavinandresen> toad_: absolutely.
43 2011-02-23 00:12:49 <quellhorst> what wattage do i need for 2x 5870?
44 2011-02-23 00:12:53 <toad_> that is awesome
45 2011-02-23 00:12:54 <quellhorst> sorry for all the questions :)
46 2011-02-23 00:13:11 <nanotube> hey, is it normal for bitcoin to eat 90mb of ram, just sitting there?
47 2011-02-23 00:13:16 <toad_> quellhorst: a lot, what do you estimate the payback time is?
48 2011-02-23 00:13:17 <tcatm> quellhorst: > 400W
49 2011-02-23 00:13:22 <gavinandresen> toad_ : the wonders of a distributed database... everybody else keeps track of your coins for you....
50 2011-02-23 00:13:23 <toad_> 300W _EACH_
51 2011-02-23 00:13:25 <nanotube> when it starts, it uses about 40, then after a day or so, it climbs up to 90 or so?
52 2011-02-23 00:13:26 <toad_> estimate 1.2KW
53 2011-02-23 00:13:28 <validus> if you went to ati's website they should tell you the recommended psu you should have
54 2011-02-23 00:13:31 <validus> for single and crossfire
55 2011-02-23 00:13:38 <[Tycho]> 200W each.
56 2011-02-23 00:14:03 <toad_> is there any way to list the addresses i already generated to avoid creating new ones?
57 2011-02-23 00:14:04 <nanotube> (talking about bitcoind, btw, about memory usage)
58 2011-02-23 00:14:32 <lolcat> nanotube: Mine used 300MB
59 2011-02-23 00:14:34 <quellhorst> toad_: man hard to say, i lost more $ today just from reading up on this than if i had worked.
60 2011-02-23 00:14:35 <toad_> [Tycho]: ahhh, 5870 is the single chip one isn't it
61 2011-02-23 00:14:39 <[Tycho]> Yes.
62 2011-02-23 00:15:07 <toad_> okay, i'll make a new one then
63 2011-02-23 00:16:17 <nanotube> lolcat: heh that's a lot...
64 2011-02-23 00:16:41 <quellhorst> ;;math calc 355*1500
65 2011-02-23 00:16:42 <gribble> 532500
66 2011-02-23 00:16:52 <quellhorst> ;;bc,calc 532500
67 2011-02-23 00:16:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 532500 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 3 days, 9 hours, 41 minutes, and 13 seconds
68 2011-02-23 00:17:39 <andrew12> ;;bc,stats
69 2011-02-23 00:17:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109793 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1086 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 14 hours, 14 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49185.21043048
70 2011-02-23 00:19:39 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 4500
71 2011-02-23 00:19:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4500 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 year, 5 weeks, 2 days, 18 hours, 17 minutes, and 51 seconds
72 2011-02-23 00:19:43 <phantomcircuit> lol
73 2011-02-23 00:20:05 <sethsethseth> geez its getting harder rly fast
74 2011-02-23 00:20:12 <TheKid> sethsethseth: yes
75 2011-02-23 00:20:54 <tcatm> gavinandresen: is it possible to clone the windows build env locally (i.e. for vmware or virtualbox)?
76 2011-02-23 00:22:22 <gavinandresen> tcatm: I don't know-- the Amazon AMI is public, and I know you can go from a vmware VM TO an AMI, but I don't know if you can go the other way.
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80 2011-02-23 00:26:02 <toad_> what do i need to back up? everything?
81 2011-02-23 00:26:14 <tcatm> wallet.dat
82 2011-02-23 00:26:14 <toad_> probably safest to backup everything... what's the minimum?
83 2011-02-23 00:26:50 <tcatm> everything else can be re-downloaded
84 2011-02-23 00:26:59 <TheKid> wallet.dat is the only thing you need
85 2011-02-23 00:27:20 <Blitzboom> the wallet contains your private keys
86 2011-02-23 00:27:28 <andrew12> tcatm: did you still want to try to make a new online wallet site?
87 2011-02-23 00:27:29 <toad_> okay and i restore it just by creating .bitcoin/ and putting the old wallet.dat in?
88 2011-02-23 00:27:34 <andrew12> toad_: yep
89 2011-02-23 00:27:45 <toad_> and it will figure out the addresses too?
90 2011-02-23 00:27:54 <andrew12> yes, because they're part of the wallet
91 2011-02-23 00:28:12 <tcatm> andrew12: yes
92 2011-02-23 00:28:58 <sipa> mtgox back to 0.91
93 2011-02-23 00:29:42 <andrew12> min ask is 0.90999, max bid is 0.85148
94 2011-02-23 00:29:46 <andrew12> er
95 2011-02-23 00:29:52 <andrew12> min ask is 0.90999, max bid is 0.86148
96 2011-02-23 00:30:22 <tcatm> wow. only 49.8 seconds to compile bitcoind :)
97 2011-02-23 00:30:40 <andrew12> tcatm: what exactly needs to be done with the backend? does it just need to be a dead-simple rpc server that proxies to bitcoind?
98 2011-02-23 00:31:07 <andrew12> by backend i mean for the rpc server that the js-remote will be connecting to
99 2011-02-23 00:31:28 <tcatm> andrew12: not anymore. I want to add more abstraction to allow transparent integration of other features
100 2011-02-23 00:32:07 <andrew12> tcatm: then what exactly do you need me to do? hehe
101 2011-02-23 00:32:13 <andrew12> or is there even anything i can do?
102 2011-02-23 00:33:34 sipa has quit (Changing host)
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104 2011-02-23 00:33:48 <tcatm> I'll finish writing the specs (could take a few weeks) and then we can talk about writing code
105 2011-02-23 00:33:54 <andrew12> kk
106 2011-02-23 00:34:01 <CIA-57> bitcoin: tcatm master * r10e135a / rpc.cpp : Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/sandos/bitcoin into sandos-master - http://bit.ly/hkKGHs
107 2011-02-23 00:34:03 <CIA-57> bitcoin: tcatm master * r2175c9d / rpc.cpp : Set SO_REUSEADDR on JSON port - http://bit.ly/i2wrCH
108 2011-02-23 00:34:08 <luke-jr> bitcoind really needs a complete protocol makeover
109 2011-02-23 00:34:18 <luke-jr> so clients can use it sanely
110 2011-02-23 00:34:27 <andrew12> it needs to be less difficult
111 2011-02-23 00:34:38 <luke-jr> andrew12: right now, it requires polling to get minimal info
112 2011-02-23 00:34:39 <tcatm> bitcoind needs a wallet makeover and RPC makeover
113 2011-02-23 00:34:42 <andrew12> and it needs to be documented as its being created rather than afterwards :p
114 2011-02-23 00:35:28 <andrew12> I vote for JSON messages back and forth between clients rather than binary data
115 2011-02-23 00:35:38 <andrew12> :P
116 2011-02-23 00:35:39 * luke-jr glares at andrew12
117 2011-02-23 00:35:46 <tcatm> binary data is fine as long as it's documented
118 2011-02-23 00:36:06 [Tycho] has quit (Changing host)
119 2011-02-23 00:36:06 [Tycho] has joined
120 2011-02-23 00:36:10 <luke-jr> didn't slush and jgarzik just create a new binary miner protocol because JSON was a pain?
121 2011-02-23 00:37:22 * luke-jr ponders dropping the RPCv1 topic just because it fixes so little
122 2011-02-23 00:37:59 <andrew12> kill it with fire?
123 2011-02-23 00:38:00 <slush> binary data are pain
124 2011-02-23 00:38:14 <andrew12> agreed
125 2011-02-23 00:38:25 <luke-jr> slush: binary data is less pain than text data
126 2011-02-23 00:38:32 <andrew12> binary data + undocumented = suicide
127 2011-02-23 00:38:36 <[Tycho]> Hmm, somehow a payment from slush isn't becoming confirmed... The one that i sent to someone already got 8 confirmations, but incoming transaction is at 0
128 2011-02-23 00:38:41 <luke-jr> definitely needs to be documented
129 2011-02-23 00:39:07 <luke-jr> maybe we should start a new wiki page for a client protocol, to become a specification
130 2011-02-23 00:39:10 <andrew12> [Tycho]: has the block number gone up since you received that transaction?
131 2011-02-23 00:39:19 <tcatm> andrew12: naah.... ascii data + undocumented is just as bad
132 2011-02-23 00:39:35 <[Tycho]> Yes. 31 mins already passed.
133 2011-02-23 00:40:23 <andrew12> dunno
134 2011-02-23 00:40:45 <andrew12> tcatm: you're probably right... heh
135 2011-02-23 00:41:03 <slush> [Tycho]: if you see your TX in client, then everything is fine
136 2011-02-23 00:41:30 <Gaming4JC> luke-jr: hey your the guy offering VPS right? :D
137 2011-02-23 00:41:35 Keefe has quit (Changing host)
138 2011-02-23 00:41:35 Keefe has joined
139 2011-02-23 00:41:39 <luke-jr> Gaming4JC: yeah
140 2011-02-23 00:41:59 <[Tycho]> slush, i know that it's not a problem with your pool :) But i can't spend it...
141 2011-02-23 00:42:08 <slush> yeah :)
142 2011-02-23 00:42:19 <toad_> | You need to make a backup of the wallet after every transaction, as the old backup file will be partially or fully invalid. Wait at least a few seconds after your last transaction before making the backup.
143 2011-02-23 00:42:22 <toad_> what does this mean exactly?
144 2011-02-23 00:42:22 <Gaming4JC> luke-jr: awesome. We (a friend and I) were looking for a new place for a MCLawl minecraft server, and figured if we get enough bitcoins you'd be the one to try
145 2011-02-23 00:42:36 <sipa> toad_: after every 100 transactions suffices
146 2011-02-23 00:42:40 <luke-jr> Gaming4JC: cool. I focus on low-latency hosting for games
147 2011-02-23 00:42:52 <toad_> sipa: and if i don't ... ???
148 2011-02-23 00:42:55 <sipa> and use the backupwallet rpc call to prevent partial updated files
149 2011-02-23 00:43:08 <toad_> sipa: the private keys for the addresses become invalid somehow?
150 2011-02-23 00:43:10 <phantomcircuit> toad_, you could lose your bitcoins
151 2011-02-23 00:43:14 <sipa> toad_: no
152 2011-02-23 00:43:17 <luke-jr> Gaming4JC: I wouldn't mind doing some kind of partnership if you want to offer managed minecraft hosting either ;)
153 2011-02-23 00:43:21 <tcatm> toad_: a transaction might create a change TX with a new key. If that key isn't in your wallet backup you might lose the change
154 2011-02-23 00:43:30 <sipa> toad_: but if you lose your wallet file, you lose access your funds
155 2011-02-23 00:43:33 <sipa> irrevokably
156 2011-02-23 00:43:33 <gavinandresen> slush: did you and jgarzik ever figure out what a new external miner protocol should look like? I didn't jump into that conversation because I don't know nothin about external miners...
157 2011-02-23 00:43:47 <luke-jr> toad_: when you send bitcoins, the change goes to a new address usually
158 2011-02-23 00:43:57 <Gaming4JC> luke-jr: Sounds interesting, I'll query you. :)
159 2011-02-23 00:44:01 <BlueMatt> Gaming4JC: there are several vps sites which accept btc, some for less than the 48 BTC/month you said earlier
160 2011-02-23 00:44:17 <luke-jr> toad_: so if someone sent you 50 BTC, and you send Joe 25 BTC, the remaining 25 BTC goes to a NEW address behind the scenes
161 2011-02-23 00:44:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: oversold VPS hosting isn't likely to handle games well ;)
162 2011-02-23 00:44:35 <toad_> ah, so i can lose the coins that i haven't disposed of?
163 2011-02-23 00:44:36 <Gaming4JC> BlueMatt: but do the specs have enough to run a decent Minecraft server? uses a lot of ram
164 2011-02-23 00:44:38 <quellhorst> just ordered my first mining rig :)
165 2011-02-23 00:44:42 <Gaming4JC> well 512mb-ish
166 2011-02-23 00:45:04 <sipa> toad_: simply seen, the wallet contains your money, losing it is like losing your coins
167 2011-02-23 00:45:10 <slush> gavinandresen: well, we both have different view to world, probably
168 2011-02-23 00:45:12 <BlueMatt> Gaming4JC: do you have a computer which you can leave on, and run a dynamic dns host?
169 2011-02-23 00:45:23 <BlueMatt> Gaming4JC: I run several mc servers on a box in the basement
170 2011-02-23 00:45:31 <sipa> toad_: it's not completely correct, as the coins are stored in the network, and only the keys to them are in the wallet file
171 2011-02-23 00:45:31 <Gaming4JC> BlueMatt: hmm afraid not.
172 2011-02-23 00:45:47 <sipa> toad_: but conceptually you can say that wallet == money :p
173 2011-02-23 00:46:01 <slush> gavinandresen: basically, looks like jgarzik does not accept anything than plain binary protocol :)
174 2011-02-23 00:46:34 <gavinandresen> slush: so maybe m0mchil can be the tiebreaker
175 2011-02-23 00:46:49 <[Tycho]> It's strange, i don't see this transaction on blockexplorer.
176 2011-02-23 00:46:52 <slush> gavinandresen: m0mchil proposed protocol buffers, which I like
177 2011-02-23 00:46:56 <gavinandresen> (or somebody else who's written an external miner)
178 2011-02-23 00:47:10 <slush> gavinandresen: so first version of pool protocol will be on protocol buffers
179 2011-02-23 00:47:13 <slush> and then we will see
180 2011-02-23 00:47:22 <tcatm> I'd use raw binary with a small (1..2 bytes) header.
181 2011-02-23 00:47:37 <nanotube> why not have two versions, one with binary, one with old json, and let people choose. though it seems that binary would be more efficient.
182 2011-02-23 00:47:42 <slush> It's pretty easy to change underlying protocol, if both are tcp streams
183 2011-02-23 00:47:53 <gavinandresen> slush: will protocol buffers change the build process at all? Or do you just run a tool and check in generated protocol buffer code?
184 2011-02-23 00:48:15 <[Tycho]> Looks like it is not being included in blocks.
185 2011-02-23 00:48:29 <slush> gavinandresen: protocol buffer compiler create C source code for the protocol
186 2011-02-23 00:48:46 <gavinandresen> [Tycho] : a transaction from the faucet earlier today took quite a while to get into a block... don't know why.
187 2011-02-23 00:49:37 <[Tycho]> gavinandresen, but was it sent fast or it was delayed by faucet itself ?
188 2011-02-23 00:49:39 <slush> nanotube: I support json because it is standard in current bitcoin app. But it is the worst solution from side of effectivity
189 2011-02-23 00:49:42 <gavinandresen> slush: ... and the C source code is completely cross-platform? Or will we have to run the tool as part of the build process?
190 2011-02-23 00:49:55 <slush> gavinandresen: I don't know, I'm not C programmer :(
191 2011-02-23 00:50:06 <gavinandresen> [Tycho] : don't know, wasn't willing to spend a whole lot of time trying to figure out where 0.05 BTC got stuck....
192 2011-02-23 00:50:13 <luke-jr> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3757.0 <-- thoughts?
193 2011-02-23 00:50:19 <[Tycho]> My facet cents arrived in 30-90 mins after requesting, but they didn't hanged with 0 confirmations until that time.
194 2011-02-23 00:50:41 <noagendamarket> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3728.new#new I lol'd at that post by kryptofer
195 2011-02-23 00:52:07 <[Tycho]> binary, yay :)
196 2011-02-23 00:52:24 <Syke> new transactions need to pass peer to peer until they reach the client that solves a block. that peer-to-peer hopping can take a while.
197 2011-02-23 00:52:31 <comboy> noagendamarket: I lold
198 2011-02-23 00:52:56 <tcatm> luke-jr: redesign the account system (still too many label artifacts), add general set/get methods for configurations variables and remove config stuff from the wallet (should be in bitcoin.conf)
199 2011-02-23 00:53:15 <luke-jr> tcatm: edit wiki page :P
200 2011-02-23 00:53:20 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: you have to run protobuf compiler as part of build process
201 2011-02-23 00:53:24 <jgarzik> == added dependencies
202 2011-02-23 00:53:35 <luke-jr> tcatm: also, remember this is a protocol spec, not an implementation/patch
203 2011-02-23 00:53:46 <jgarzik> protocol buffers don't make any sense when you are already transiting binary data
204 2011-02-23 00:53:56 <luke-jr> probably for like 0.4 (earliest) or later (and other wallets/clients)
205 2011-02-23 00:54:12 <jgarzik> one must convert bitcoin data field format into protobuf data field format
206 2011-02-23 00:54:21 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I don't actively watch protobuf, but I've seen issues with them breaking ABIs I think
207 2011-02-23 00:54:49 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I don't like more dependencies or a more complicated build process......
208 2011-02-23 00:55:21 <tcatm> if we moved midstate calculation to the miners we only need to transmit the raw blockheader
209 2011-02-23 00:55:29 <jgarzik> furthermore, protocol buffers does not segment TCP stream. They present a message interface. You must manually invent a tiny header that stores message length in TCP stream (and perhaps checksum or "magic number" bytes as well)
210 2011-02-23 00:55:42 <toad_> freenet now accepts bitcoin! http://freenetproject.org/donate.html
211 2011-02-23 00:55:47 kermit has joined
212 2011-02-23 00:55:51 <sipa> i think that midstate calculation indeed belongs in the miners instead of in the client
213 2011-02-23 00:55:59 <gavinandresen> toad_ : nice!
214 2011-02-23 00:56:11 <jgarzik> so you must copy 'getwork' data into: message(protobuf_message(getwork data))
215 2011-02-23 00:56:16 <sipa> eg. artforz' kernel does more precalculation than the midstate passed along too
216 2011-02-23 00:56:18 <luke-jr> IMO, midstate should be supported by the protocol, but wallet decides if it sends it
217 2011-02-23 00:56:58 <jgarzik> a binary protocol that simply sends block header -- as directly copied from bitcoin -- is trivial, and does not introduce additional build dependencies.
218 2011-02-23 00:57:15 <tcatm> midstate is a hack for faster mining. it should be done in the miner
219 2011-02-23 00:57:19 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I agree, why complicate a backend protocol?
220 2011-02-23 00:57:20 <jgarzik> agreed
221 2011-02-23 00:57:33 <nanotube> toad_: nice! :)
222 2011-02-23 00:57:38 <tcatm> target can be calculated from nbits
223 2011-02-23 00:57:46 <jgarzik> so I don't think protobuf supporters have actually _coded_ a solution
224 2011-02-23 00:57:49 <luke-jr> tcatm: actually, since midstate is probably invalid when using multiple miners, you may be right
225 2011-02-23 00:57:50 <tcatm> so we need to transfer 96 bytes
226 2011-02-23 00:57:55 <sipa> i'd keep target separate
227 2011-02-23 00:58:00 <ArtForz> actually I think we want extra target for pools
228 2011-02-23 00:58:03 <sipa> so low-difficulty hashing remains possible
229 2011-02-23 00:58:27 benkant has joined
230 2011-02-23 00:58:27 <luke-jr> ArtForz: IMO, pools should just require miners work with getnewaddress :P
231 2011-02-23 00:58:30 <sipa> but possible encoded more efficiently than as a full hex expansion
232 2011-02-23 00:58:40 <slush> jgarzik: I didn't coded that. In fact, it is minor problem for me, I just personally hate binary data :)
233 2011-02-23 00:58:44 <tcatm> okay, 96 bytes blockheader + optional 32 bits "pool-nbits"
234 2011-02-23 00:58:47 <ArtForz> whats wrong with using another nbits-y value?
235 2011-02-23 00:58:49 <luke-jr> miner gets an address, builds the merkle tree etc, then submits the whole block when it finds it
236 2011-02-23 00:58:50 <ArtForz> yep
237 2011-02-23 00:58:57 <ArtForz> any why 96 bytes block header?
238 2011-02-23 00:58:57 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yeah, just try (a) requiring and (b) using protobuf message compiler on all platforms
239 2011-02-23 00:58:58 <sipa> ArtForz: yeah sure
240 2011-02-23 00:59:00 TiagoTiago has joined
241 2011-02-23 00:59:03 <ArtForz> it's 80 bytes
242 2011-02-23 00:59:21 TiagoTiago has quit (Client Quit)
243 2011-02-23 00:59:22 <jgarzik> slush: well, miners are mining binary data!
244 2011-02-23 00:59:26 <jgarzik> hate it all you want...
245 2011-02-23 00:59:28 <jgarzik> that is reality
246 2011-02-23 00:59:36 <tcatm> s/96/80/g ; must haved misremembered that
247 2011-02-23 00:59:36 <sipa> i agree, actually
248 2011-02-23 00:59:47 <sipa> but it's not that important
249 2011-02-23 01:00:16 <luke-jr> actually, mining software connects to local wallet; local wallet cooperates with pool (using pool's address, but figuring out tx itself), and sends pool completed blocks
250 2011-02-23 01:01:07 <sipa> yeah it's quite possible to split up the whole bitcoin system into a few loosely-connected components
251 2011-02-23 01:01:08 <BlueMatt> is it worth the extra bandwidth to send the txes instead of just the merkle root?
252 2011-02-23 01:01:10 <sipa> that'd be nice
253 2011-02-23 01:01:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: why would you bother?
254 2011-02-23 01:01:38 <BlueMatt> I think we shouldnt, but some people have mentioned that
255 2011-02-23 01:01:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the miner's wallet gets the tx itself
256 2011-02-23 01:01:45 <luke-jr> from the network
257 2011-02-23 01:01:53 <luke-jr> building the merkle root takes work
258 2011-02-23 01:02:02 <ArtForz> well, thats what luke wants to do = each miner needs to be a network node
259 2011-02-23 01:02:06 <tcatm> actually binary protocol has one advantage: you can debug 84 byte TCP packets easily with tcpdump
260 2011-02-23 01:02:07 <sipa> it can be done very efficiently, i think
261 2011-02-23 01:02:14 <BlueMatt> but the server just needs to do that once
262 2011-02-23 01:02:17 <ArtForz> = we duplicate work N times for N miners for... no reason
263 2011-02-23 01:02:27 <BlueMatt> it can make the merkle root and resend it infinite times to each client
264 2011-02-23 01:02:29 <sipa> more so than how bitcoind currently creates the merkle roots for getwork
265 2011-02-23 01:02:57 <luke-jr> hmm
266 2011-02-23 01:03:01 <slush> BlueMatt: not so easy
267 2011-02-23 01:03:12 <slush> BlueMatt: every miner have to solve different space
268 2011-02-23 01:03:12 <ArtForz> the whole merkle tree code in bitcoind needs some work
269 2011-02-23 01:03:15 <luke-jr> slush: is bandwidth or CPU time at a premium more?
270 2011-02-23 01:03:32 <BlueMatt> didnt say it was, but it would be equally complicated for each miner to calculate the merkle roots
271 2011-02-23 01:03:50 <sipa> but a miner would only need to do it for himself
272 2011-02-23 01:03:56 <sipa> and hundreds of times per second
273 2011-02-23 01:03:59 <sipa> *not
274 2011-02-23 01:04:08 <sipa> but it would require a full client on the miner side
275 2011-02-23 01:04:09 <luke-jr> right
276 2011-02-23 01:04:14 <luke-jr> distribute the work to the miners âº_
277 2011-02-23 01:04:22 <sipa> which is a nice advantage of the current pool scheme, that they don't need much
278 2011-02-23 01:04:23 <slush> luke-jr: I think the bottleneck is CPU time when broadcasting new jobs
279 2011-02-23 01:04:48 <luke-jr> slush: so if each share meant an entire block got sent to you, that'd be better?
280 2011-02-23 01:05:05 <slush> luke-jr: don't understand
281 2011-02-23 01:05:30 <luke-jr> slush: if miners are building their own blocks, using only an address the pool provides, the pool needs to get all that data to verify a share's hash is valid
282 2011-02-23 01:05:37 <ArtForz> we don't even support partial merkle tree rebuilding yet
283 2011-02-23 01:06:07 <ArtForz> = for each merkle tree build, all tx hashes and the whole tree get recalculated
284 2011-02-23 01:06:14 <xelister> jgarzik: how fast is your miner compared to slush? :)
285 2011-02-23 01:06:17 <slush> luke-jr: yes
286 2011-02-23 01:06:27 <BlueMatt> can someone catch me up on the protocol options?
287 2011-02-23 01:06:31 <sipa> ArtForz: the tx hashes are stored in the CTransaction objects, so they are not recalculated i think
288 2011-02-23 01:06:37 <ArtForz> really?
289 2011-02-23 01:06:41 <ArtForz> *checks*
290 2011-02-23 01:06:45 <slush> xelister: I don
291 2011-02-23 01:06:49 <slush> I don't have any miner :)
292 2011-02-23 01:07:21 <xelister> *pool
293 2011-02-23 01:07:27 <sipa> ArtForz: i think i'm wrong
294 2011-02-23 01:07:39 <tcatm> I haven't seen TX hashes either.
295 2011-02-23 01:07:49 <[Tycho]> One hour passed and the transaction is still not in the block. There is some conspiracy...
296 2011-02-23 01:08:08 <tcatm> [Tycho]: which TX?
297 2011-02-23 01:08:08 <quellhorst> i'm in your mining machine, stealing your coins
298 2011-02-23 01:08:37 <[Tycho]> tcatm, from slush's pool to me. I can't give a link because it's not there.
299 2011-02-23 01:08:40 <quellhorst> what keeps a worm/virus from stealing your coins?
300 2011-02-23 01:08:51 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: nothing
301 2011-02-23 01:09:05 johnyh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
302 2011-02-23 01:09:06 <tcatm> [Tycho]: I could check the lastlog of #bitcoin-monitor
303 2011-02-23 01:09:08 <luke-jr> quellhorst: the fact that you don't run Windows, and therefore aren't suceptible? :D
304 2011-02-23 01:09:09 <BlueMatt> see "The case of the Russion Scammer" on the forums (shameless self-plug)
305 2011-02-23 01:09:30 <ArtForz> nope, no caching
306 2011-02-23 01:09:40 <quellhorst> luke-jr: lol, yeah i don't run windows
307 2011-02-23 01:09:40 <[Tycho]> tcatm, 4.97 to address 12dtzQ3nT27nzacSbaaaerjVXSgvMhy2e5
308 2011-02-23 01:09:46 <sipa> apparently i got confused by CMerkleTx's hashBlock field
309 2011-02-23 01:10:04 <ArtForz> it's even worse
310 2011-02-23 01:10:15 <slush> sipa: so I was right? All hashes are calculated for every merkle request?
311 2011-02-23 01:10:17 <ArtForz> so we actually reserialize every tx...
312 2011-02-23 01:10:17 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: weve seen trojans which work on linux which steal bitcoins already, so...
313 2011-02-23 01:10:24 <sipa> slush: yes
314 2011-02-23 01:10:26 <tcatm> [Tycho]: f5f772198eaa4f7c994b4b64c8b471b600ae39f9ed3e5091061a711e3526708b one hour ago
315 2011-02-23 01:10:27 <quellhorst> BlueMatt: ouch
316 2011-02-23 01:10:33 <quellhorst> BlueMatt: personally?
317 2011-02-23 01:10:38 <slush> great place for speed improvements :)
318 2011-02-23 01:10:43 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: didnt get mine stolen
319 2011-02-23 01:10:45 <ArtForz> yep
320 2011-02-23 01:10:49 <JFK911> where are those trojans distributed? here?
321 2011-02-23 01:10:51 <quellhorst> BlueMatt: i have seen linux boxen rooted often.
322 2011-02-23 01:10:56 <BlueMatt> on the forums
323 2011-02-23 01:10:57 <ArtForz> this looks like it shouldnt be too hard to improve
324 2011-02-23 01:10:59 <JFK911> wtf else would you find bitcoin users
325 2011-02-23 01:11:00 <JFK911> oh
326 2011-02-23 01:11:20 <BlueMatt> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3628.0 - read that
327 2011-02-23 01:11:25 <BlueMatt> again shamless self-plug
328 2011-02-23 01:11:25 <quellhorst> maybe its safer to transfer bitcoins to a more secure account?
329 2011-02-23 01:11:32 <ArtForz> step 1: make CTransaction smarter and have it cache its hash
330 2011-02-23 01:11:32 <gavinandresen> toad_ : http://blockexplorer.com/address/1966U1pjj15tLxPXZ19U48c99EJDkdXeqb <-- you've got donations already!
331 2011-02-23 01:11:35 <BlueMatt> that is recommended
332 2011-02-23 01:11:38 <quellhorst> like you'll have your clusters but then transfer outside of the cluster
333 2011-02-23 01:11:42 <JFK911> haha
334 2011-02-23 01:11:45 <[Tycho]> tcatm, http://blockexplorer.com/search/f5f772198eaa4f7c994b4b64c8b471b600ae39f9ed3e5091061a711e3526708b
335 2011-02-23 01:11:46 <JFK911> wallet backup program
336 2011-02-23 01:11:52 <JFK911> i guess he couldnt pick where the backup went
337 2011-02-23 01:11:59 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: it is recommended you keep a saving wallet
338 2011-02-23 01:12:07 <BlueMatt> on an encrypted, backed up drive
339 2011-02-23 01:12:13 <tcatm> [Tycho]: yep, same for all following TX relying on the change
340 2011-02-23 01:12:18 <BlueMatt> and then a day to day one which has less btc in it
341 2011-02-23 01:12:24 <[Tycho]> tcatm, why is that ?
342 2011-02-23 01:12:50 <sipa> ArtForz: yeah, that's actually a 2-line modification ...
343 2011-02-23 01:13:05 <tcatm> maybe slush included to little fees. the other output is ~1890 BTC
344 2011-02-23 01:13:07 Necr0s has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
345 2011-02-23 01:13:57 <tcatm> Hm. that makes no sense. If his bitcoind had smaller inputs it wouldn't combine them to 5 + 1890 outs
346 2011-02-23 01:14:29 johnyh has joined
347 2011-02-23 01:14:38 <slush> tcatm: I'm using standard client, but in server wallet is 1890 BTC right now. Looks like bad coin selection?
348 2011-02-23 01:14:54 <tcatm> slush: can you pastebin gettransaction f5f772198eaa4f7c994b4b64c8b471b600ae39f9ed3e5091061a711e3526708b ?
349 2011-02-23 01:16:48 <slush> tcatm: com
350 2011-02-23 01:16:53 <slush> heh
351 2011-02-23 01:16:56 <slush> tcatm: http://pastebin.com/EV6seyLe
352 2011-02-23 01:17:19 <tcatm> 0.3.19?
353 2011-02-23 01:17:22 <slush> yes
354 2011-02-23 01:17:47 <toad_> easiest way to get relatively small amounts (hundreds) out of btc? bitcoinmarket goes straight to paypal but seems to be invite only; mtgox goes through Liberty Reserve, which means another layer of variable fees, potentially unreliable exchangers and possible problems ...
355 2011-02-23 01:17:50 <tcatm> hm somethings wrong. It should have been resend a few times already
356 2011-02-23 01:18:11 <nanotube> toad_: maybe #bitcoin-otc :)
357 2011-02-23 01:18:27 <nanotube> toad_: you could also sell on mtgox, then sell mtgusd on bitcoin-otc for ppusd.
358 2011-02-23 01:21:05 <gavinandresen> toad_ : Bitcoin 2 Credit Card should work, too: https://www.bitcoin2cc.com/ (MadHatter has a good rep)
359 2011-02-23 01:21:32 <slush> I have to go. Hope transaction will be confirmed soon :)
360 2011-02-23 01:21:39 <[Tycho]> :(
361 2011-02-23 01:21:41 <andrew12> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2pp/minecraft-the-story-of-mojang
362 2011-02-23 01:21:45 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
363 2011-02-23 01:25:36 <bk128> big budget
364 2011-02-23 01:25:49 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
365 2011-02-23 01:26:19 <Blitzboom> how do i make sure that everythingâs fine with poclbm?
366 2011-02-23 01:26:32 <Blitzboom> when i lost the internet connection, it didnât show any errors, so iâm kind of irritated now
367 2011-02-23 01:26:50 <BlueMatt> just kill it and start it again
368 2011-02-23 01:27:02 <BlueMatt> or check your gpu usage % or gpu temp
369 2011-02-23 01:27:08 <VastLite> dang I just missed slush
370 2011-02-23 01:27:22 <Blitzboom> yeah, i did. just paranoid whether everythingâs ok
371 2011-02-23 01:27:31 <bk128> are you in a pool?
372 2011-02-23 01:27:37 <Blitzboom> nope, solo mining
373 2011-02-23 01:27:40 <bk128> ;;bc,blocks
374 2011-02-23 01:27:42 <gribble> 109807
375 2011-02-23 01:27:47 <bk128> do you have that many blocks?
376 2011-02-23 01:27:56 <Blitzboom> i had four in three days
377 2011-02-23 01:27:56 <[Tycho]> VastLite, i just missed almost 5 BTC that i needed :(
378 2011-02-23 01:28:09 <Blitzboom> three days of nothing now though. but that should be normal
379 2011-02-23 01:28:20 <[Tycho]> bk128, yes.
380 2011-02-23 01:28:34 <bk128> is anyone here familiar with the opencl core? I have a dumb question
381 2011-02-23 01:28:38 <VastLite> my first block cleared and it ended up crediting me 1/100th of what it said it would
382 2011-02-23 01:28:44 <Blitzboom> what.
383 2011-02-23 01:28:49 <Blitzboom> how can that be?
384 2011-02-23 01:29:07 <BlueMatt> you cant get .5 BTC from generating a block
385 2011-02-23 01:29:07 <bk128> VastLite: in a pool?
386 2011-02-23 01:29:21 <bk128> if you're solo mining you get 50 btc now
387 2011-02-23 01:29:30 <Blitzboom> yeah ⦠until 2013
388 2011-02-23 01:30:01 <Blitzboom> iâm really looking forward to when mining becomes much less profitable
389 2011-02-23 01:30:10 <sipa> what is the max number of transactions in a block?
390 2011-02-23 01:30:13 <Blitzboom> people will start talking about it and rather talk about bitcoin itself
391 2011-02-23 01:30:18 <Blitzboom> will stop*
392 2011-02-23 01:30:28 <BlueMatt> I believe there is a 100k limit on blocksize
393 2011-02-23 01:30:52 <Blitzboom> https://freenetproject.org/donate.html
394 2011-02-23 01:30:53 <Blitzboom> hell yeah
395 2011-02-23 01:31:04 <tcatm> 500k limit
396 2011-02-23 01:31:31 <tcatm> miners won't generate larger blocks but nodes will accept 1000k blocks
397 2011-02-23 01:32:13 <VastLite> http://pastebin.com/dxcXzLJ9
398 2011-02-23 01:32:55 <BlueMatt> VastLite: yes with pool mining you dont get much per share
399 2011-02-23 01:33:21 <BlueMatt> a share is a reduced difficulty block, of which only a tiny fraction are ligitimate blocks
400 2011-02-23 01:33:31 <VastLite> but how does 0.13 BTC amount to 0.00026 BTC?
401 2011-02-23 01:33:45 <BlueMatt> ;;math calc 50/[bc,difficulty]
402 2011-02-23 01:33:46 <gribble> Error: "bc,difficulty" is not a valid command.
403 2011-02-23 01:34:04 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,difficulty
404 2011-02-23 01:34:05 <gribble> Error: "bc,difficulty" is not a valid command.
405 2011-02-23 01:34:09 <BlueMatt> ;;,bc,stats
406 2011-02-23 01:34:10 <gribble> Error: ",bc,stats" is not a valid command.
407 2011-02-23 01:34:14 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,stats
408 2011-02-23 01:34:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109809 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1070 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 11 hours, 22 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49495.83119173
409 2011-02-23 01:34:40 MacRohard has joined
410 2011-02-23 01:34:42 <BlueMatt> VastLite: when you generate a block there is a 1/ 36459.88692508 chance that it is a valid block
411 2011-02-23 01:34:58 <BlueMatt> this means that you get 50/ 36459.88692508 bitcoins per share (on average)
412 2011-02-23 01:35:34 <bk128> what?
413 2011-02-23 01:35:40 <VastLite> yes, yes, I understand I won't get the full 50 BTC or w/e for pooled mining, however, my profile said there was 0.45 BTC pending
414 2011-02-23 01:35:52 <VastLite> in 5 blocks
415 2011-02-23 01:36:03 <BlueMatt> pending means coins that have not yet matured
416 2011-02-23 01:36:06 <bk128> the difficulty determines the target hash I thought
417 2011-02-23 01:36:26 <BlueMatt> bk128 it does
418 2011-02-23 01:36:34 <bk128> if you generate a block and it gets confirmed, you get the 50 btc after it matures in 100+ blocks
419 2011-02-23 01:36:38 <sipa> and a tx is apparently at least 59 bytes
420 2011-02-23 01:36:43 <VastLite> so an "unconfirmed" reward means absolutely nothing?
421 2011-02-23 01:36:54 <BlueMatt> it means you will get it, but not yet
422 2011-02-23 01:36:57 <sipa> if script would be empty, that is
423 2011-02-23 01:37:13 <BlueMatt> there is a miniscule chance that an unconfirmed reward might dissapear, but its too small to care about
424 2011-02-23 01:37:20 <VastLite> so will I eventually get all 0.13?
425 2011-02-23 01:37:25 <BlueMatt> yea
426 2011-02-23 01:37:45 <VastLite> it just takes time as it is confirmed?
427 2011-02-23 01:38:00 <BlueMatt> it takes a specified number of generated blocks
428 2011-02-23 01:38:05 <BlueMatt> so...time
429 2011-02-23 01:38:40 <BlueMatt> bk128: difficulty determines target hash, which determines the chance that a hash of difficulty 1 will be a valid hash
430 2011-02-23 01:38:57 <[Tycho]> Oh, they did it, at last :)
431 2011-02-23 01:39:35 <bk128> BlueMatt: are you familiar with the opencl sha core?
432 2011-02-23 01:39:43 <bk128> sha kernel*
433 2011-02-23 01:40:02 <bk128> I had a dumb question about it
434 2011-02-23 01:40:06 <BlueMatt> bk128: not really
435 2011-02-23 01:40:16 <ArtForz> I am ...
436 2011-02-23 01:40:56 <bk128> ArtForz: could the double precision floating point adders be used instead of doing bitwise addition in the sha round?
437 2011-02-23 01:41:18 <ArtForz> I'd say no
438 2011-02-23 01:41:27 Shfork has joined
439 2011-02-23 01:41:40 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit is trying to rewrite alot of it for floating point, as nvidias are MUCH better at floating point
440 2011-02-23 01:41:42 <BlueMatt> ask him
441 2011-02-23 01:41:47 <ArtForz> not really
442 2011-02-23 01:41:52 <bk128> ArtForz: can you explain?
443 2011-02-23 01:42:05 filterbox__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
444 2011-02-23 01:42:06 <ArtForz> nvidias are exactly as slow at FP as they are with integer ops
445 2011-02-23 01:42:20 <ArtForz> well, single precision FP, that is
446 2011-02-23 01:42:34 <bk128> but for the ati 6xxx series, it has a lot more fp ability right?
447 2011-02-23 01:42:34 <BlueMatt> then why are they slower than ati's when all other things run faster on nvidias
448 2011-02-23 01:42:56 <ArtForz> because the interger instuction set on ATI 5xxxs REALLY helps
449 2011-02-23 01:43:00 <BlueMatt> assuming highest end models
450 2011-02-23 01:43:02 <ArtForz> 1-cycle rotate()
451 2011-02-23 01:43:14 <ArtForz> Ch(e, f, g) in 1 opcode
452 2011-02-23 01:43:23 filterbox__ has joined
453 2011-02-23 01:43:29 <ArtForz> mainly the single cycle rotate
454 2011-02-23 01:43:42 Syke has joined
455 2011-02-23 01:43:59 <BlueMatt> so there is no chance of a nvidia core which offers more performance, similar to amd's?
456 2011-02-23 01:44:10 <ArtForz> not with any of their current GPUs
457 2011-02-23 01:44:21 <bk128> ugh, I'm trying to read this FIPS standard
458 2011-02-23 01:44:31 <BlueMatt> shame
459 2011-02-23 01:45:17 <ArtForz> kernel using ATI 5xxx features is about 50% faster than generic version
460 2011-02-23 01:45:27 <[Tycho]> I had to buy ATI instead of nvidia, so i won't be able to use CUDA acceleration in new photoshop :(
461 2011-02-23 01:45:33 <ArtForz> note that 4xxxs didnt school nvidia quite as badly
462 2011-02-23 01:45:52 <[Tycho]> ATI knew something...
463 2011-02-23 01:46:00 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
464 2011-02-23 01:46:15 <BlueMatt> I'm assuming the cores in m0m's and Diablo's use the 5xxx features?
465 2011-02-23 01:46:19 <ArtForz> yep
466 2011-02-23 01:46:39 <ArtForz> well, not the 1-cycle Ch(), but the native rotate
467 2011-02-23 01:46:47 <bk128> ArtForz: how many clock cycles does it take for a double precision float add?
468 2011-02-23 01:47:03 <ArtForz> reduces # of instructions/hash by about 1/3
469 2011-02-23 01:47:24 <BlueMatt> dam
470 2011-02-23 01:47:34 <bk128> does that translate to a 33% speedup?
471 2011-02-23 01:47:52 <ArtForz> 50% I think
472 2011-02-23 01:47:53 <BlueMatt> is there a miner which does take advantage of the 1-cycle Ch()?
473 2011-02-23 01:48:11 <ArtForz> mrbs CAL miner (400 BTC I think)
474 2011-02-23 01:48:26 <ArtForz> and my private calmine (not for sale)
475 2011-02-23 01:48:31 <BlueMatt> lol ok
476 2011-02-23 01:48:35 <ArtForz> but it only gains like an additional 8% or so
477 2011-02-23 01:48:47 <bk128> ArtForz: do you have that running on your GPUs?
478 2011-02-23 01:48:51 <ArtForz> yes
479 2011-02-23 01:49:23 <bk128> so you get like 680 mhash/sec on a 5870?
480 2011-02-23 01:49:35 <ArtForz> getting 604Mhps stock on a 5970
481 2011-02-23 01:49:50 <ArtForz> a bit over 700 OCed on average
482 2011-02-23 01:50:14 <BlueMatt> its a shame how little open source stuff there is on the ridiculously optimized end of miners
483 2011-02-23 01:50:20 <quellhorst> ArtForz: how much did you OC to?
484 2011-02-23 01:50:20 <BlueMatt> i know its money and all, but
485 2011-02-23 01:50:33 <gasteve> so, what is the trick to disable Crossfire on the 5970? I am only getting around 275Mhash on my stock 5970
486 2011-02-23 01:50:40 <BlueMatt> youd think a community as small as btc would open source more stuff
487 2011-02-23 01:50:48 <bk128> diablo gets 560, that's not a 50% speedup :)
488 2011-02-23 01:50:53 <[Tycho]> Open source isn't really needed. Free downloading would be fine :)
489 2011-02-23 01:50:56 <ArtForz> OC is about 845 avg
490 2011-02-23 01:51:01 <BlueMatt> true
491 2011-02-23 01:51:12 <ArtForz> mem downclocked to 800, stock voltage
492 2011-02-23 01:51:24 <BurtyB> does the slot speed (x1/x4/x16) make any difference to the Mhps?
493 2011-02-23 01:51:26 <[Tycho]> gasteve, on windows ?
494 2011-02-23 01:51:44 <TheKid> BurtyB: no
495 2011-02-23 01:51:45 <ArtForz> check diablos kernel, notice the #define rotate(x, n) bitalign(...) stuff ?
496 2011-02-23 01:51:56 <BlueMatt> yea?
497 2011-02-23 01:52:07 <gasteve> on Ubuntu 10.10
498 2011-02-23 01:52:30 <[Tycho]> Don't know about lunix... People say that it's possible.
499 2011-02-23 01:52:33 <ArtForz> well, that means it's already using native rotate
500 2011-02-23 01:52:40 <bk128> ArtForz: yeah
501 2011-02-23 01:52:40 <BlueMatt> ah
502 2011-02-23 01:52:57 <ArtForz> without it you'd have to do each rotate with a shr + shl + or
503 2011-02-23 01:53:00 <BurtyB> TheKid thanks, I figured/hoped not :)
504 2011-02-23 01:53:16 <ArtForz> and sha does rotates a whole lot
505 2011-02-23 01:53:19 <BlueMatt> so his miner is almost as optimized as yours?
506 2011-02-23 01:53:21 <Blitzboom> gasteve: can we have a german subforum?
507 2011-02-23 01:53:31 <ArtForz> his miner kernel is based on my OpenCL kernel
508 2011-02-23 01:53:37 <ArtForz> so is m0s current kernel
509 2011-02-23 01:53:44 <BlueMatt> almost as optimized as the one you use?
510 2011-02-23 01:53:54 <ArtForz> yep
511 2011-02-23 01:54:02 <BlueMatt> fair enough
512 2011-02-23 01:54:03 <ArtForz> maybe 1% slower than my CL miner or so
513 2011-02-23 01:54:11 <Blitzboom> uh, i mean gavinandresen
514 2011-02-23 01:54:19 <BlueMatt> well for the several germans here, gnight (it is 2:45)
515 2011-02-23 01:54:31 <ArtForz> problem is, you can't access the opcode needed for doing Ch() in 1 cycle from OpenCL
516 2011-02-23 01:54:35 <Blitzboom> nacht
517 2011-02-23 01:54:44 <ArtForz> n8 ;)
518 2011-02-23 01:54:48 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
519 2011-02-23 01:54:52 <ArtForz> you need CAL + binary shader hacking for that
520 2011-02-23 01:55:10 <[Tycho]> It's done in PC's ram ?
521 2011-02-23 01:55:22 <ArtForz> what is?
522 2011-02-23 01:55:28 <[Tycho]> Binary patching.
523 2011-02-23 01:55:31 <ArtForz> yep
524 2011-02-23 01:55:40 <gavinandresen> Blitzboom: ask Sirius about creating sub-forums, I don't know what the criteria/policy is
525 2011-02-23 01:55:49 <Blitzboom> ok
526 2011-02-23 01:56:29 <ArtForz> basically CAL IL compiler outputs a mem buffer containing a ELF binary with a bunc of sections containing IL bytecode and gpu arch specific binary
527 2011-02-23 01:56:51 <ArtForz> the fun part is that opcode isnt usable even from IL
528 2011-02-23 01:56:55 <[Tycho]> Is CAL IL compiler free and available to anyone ?
529 2011-02-23 01:56:57 <ArtForz> yes
530 2011-02-23 01:57:38 <ArtForz> it's part of AMDs Stream/APP/whateveritsnamedtoday SDK
531 2011-02-23 01:57:52 <bk128> lol
532 2011-02-23 01:58:41 <ArtForz> AMD is really good with docs, too
533 2011-02-23 01:58:44 <bk128> so are there any optimizations that can be done to get decent performance on the 69**?
534 2011-02-23 01:58:55 dirtyfilthy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
535 2011-02-23 01:59:03 <ArtForz> I already get decent performance on 69xx
536 2011-02-23 01:59:11 <bk128> looking at the evergreen and 6900 ISA docs
537 2011-02-23 01:59:13 <Blitzboom> ArtForz: how many mhash/s?
538 2011-02-23 01:59:26 <bk128> I mean similar performance to the 5970
539 2011-02-23 01:59:29 <ArtForz> exactly as fast as a 5870 stock
540 2011-02-23 01:59:40 <Blitzboom> nice. how did you do that?
541 2011-02-23 01:59:50 <Blitzboom> and what gpu excactly?
542 2011-02-23 01:59:53 <ArtForz> 6970
543 2011-02-23 01:59:55 <ArtForz> didnt really do anything
544 2011-02-23 01:59:57 <Blitzboom> you overclocked?
545 2011-02-23 02:00:00 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, this resulted image should be compiled every time and is not possible to just save it and use when needed ?
546 2011-02-23 02:00:19 <Blitzboom> ah well, the 6970 is more expensive
547 2011-02-23 02:00:21 <ArtForz> iirc it's not compatible between driver versions
548 2011-02-23 02:00:25 <ArtForz> yes
549 2011-02-23 02:00:32 <ArtForz> for mining 6xxx doesnt make much sense
550 2011-02-23 02:00:48 <ArtForz> though it kicks ass for 3D performance
551 2011-02-23 02:01:01 <Blitzboom> i think iâll need to join a pool after the next difficulty kicks in
552 2011-02-23 02:01:08 <Blitzboom> even with my 5870
553 2011-02-23 02:01:25 <[Tycho]> But when it's the save driver, image can be loaded in convenient way or it will be some kind of ram patching anyway ?
554 2011-02-23 02:01:44 <[Tycho]> *same
555 2011-02-23 02:02:04 <ArtForz> if you have a binary for the proper driver + GPU combo, you can just load it
556 2011-02-23 02:03:17 <ArtForz> though the in-mem patching isnt too hard
557 2011-02-23 02:04:21 <ArtForz> my whole ELf parser + patcher is 100 lines of C
558 2011-02-23 02:04:40 <[Tycho]> It's because you already know what to do :)
559 2011-02-23 02:04:56 <quellhorst> ArtForz: what do you use for mining?
560 2011-02-23 02:05:33 <ArtForz> 6* 5770, 8* 5870, 28* 5970, 2* 6870, 2*6970, + currently 6.4GHps of ASICs
561 2011-02-23 02:05:42 <jgarzik> I think ArtForz uses perl scripts for mining, maybe a little JavaScript too
562 2011-02-23 02:06:15 <[Tycho]> Should try VisualBasic, indeed.
563 2011-02-23 02:06:24 <quellhorst> ArtForz: whats ASIC?
564 2011-02-23 02:06:37 <ArtForz> Application Specific Integrated Circuit
565 2011-02-23 02:06:44 <[Tycho]> quellhorst, semi-custom chips.
566 2011-02-23 02:06:47 <ArtForz> yep
567 2011-02-23 02:06:52 <quellhorst> where do those come from?
568 2011-02-23 02:07:16 <[Tycho]> Made to order.
569 2011-02-23 02:07:20 <quellhorst> wow
570 2011-02-23 02:07:23 <ArtForz> yup
571 2011-02-23 02:07:40 <ArtForz> it's "only" metal-defined structured ASIC
572 2011-02-23 02:07:55 <quellhorst> what did you do before this?
573 2011-02-23 02:07:56 sabalaba has joined
574 2011-02-23 02:08:29 <ArtForz> but imo the current market for mining is simply way too small to make a full custom chip economical
575 2011-02-23 02:08:42 <xelister> how to check which ver os Amd SDK I have?
576 2011-02-23 02:08:44 <xelister> of
577 2011-02-23 02:09:19 <quellhorst> ArtForz: are your ASICs the most cost effective?
578 2011-02-23 02:09:35 <ArtForz> nope
579 2011-02-23 02:09:36 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, may be you'll feel sorry about not makinh fill run after 20 years :)
580 2011-02-23 02:09:51 <[Tycho]> *full
581 2011-02-23 02:10:04 <da2ce7> artforz, what price dose bitcoin need to be for a full custom chip to become proffitable?
582 2011-02-23 02:10:11 <ArtForz> unless $/Mh comes WAY down, GPUs will still win
583 2011-02-23 02:10:15 <luke-jr> ArtForz: not even if you only count power?
584 2011-02-23 02:10:43 <ArtForz> well, only for power ignoring upfront HW cost, ASICs easily win
585 2011-02-23 02:10:54 <[Tycho]> Some months ago one friend told me about bitcoins. If I only knew that this will be serious and started mining, i would be rich by today :)
586 2011-02-23 02:11:09 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: nah, difficulty would have gone up faster :p
587 2011-02-23 02:11:30 <ArtForz> thing is, you can resell GPUs, so hardware cost is actually a lot lower than sticker price
588 2011-02-23 02:11:33 <[Tycho]> It wouldn't just because of me.
589 2011-02-23 02:11:38 <bk128> ArtForz: so the way the 6900s are organized, each dpp can do fp stuff OR bitwise operations?
590 2011-02-23 02:11:48 <ArtForz> dpp ?
591 2011-02-23 02:12:18 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: it would if you made anything significant
592 2011-02-23 02:12:31 <bk128> reading the Evergreen ISA doc on the ati developer website. says "data parallel processor dpp array"
593 2011-02-23 02:12:36 <luke-jr> bk128: 6970 < 5970
594 2011-02-23 02:12:37 <ArtForz> ahhh, that
595 2011-02-23 02:12:45 <ArtForz> iirc dpp = SIMD of VLIWs
596 2011-02-23 02:12:58 <bk128> luke-jr: I know :)
597 2011-02-23 02:13:24 <ArtForz> each VLIW can do 3 simple SP + 1 complex SP or 1 DP operation per clock
598 2011-02-23 02:13:42 <comboy> quick maybe stupid question: is my understanding correct that if mining locally if I do getwork say every 20seconds, and new block is on avg ever 600secs, I have 20/600.0 = 3% chance that it's not gonna be accepted?
599 2011-02-23 02:13:47 <ArtForz> most integer ops count as simple SP
600 2011-02-23 02:13:56 <bk128> including rotate?
601 2011-02-23 02:13:59 <ArtForz> yes
602 2011-02-23 02:14:03 <bk128> how is addition currently done?
603 2011-02-23 02:14:22 <ArtForz> err, using 32-bit integer adds
604 2011-02-23 02:14:27 <bk128> 1 clock cycle?
605 2011-02-23 02:14:29 <ArtForz> yep
606 2011-02-23 02:15:10 <ArtForz> btw, thats kinda impressive when you think about it, that means a 6970 has 1536 rotate capable barrel shifters...
607 2011-02-23 02:15:20 <bk128> yeah
608 2011-02-23 02:16:10 <ArtForz> but then integer ALUs have always been pretty small compared to floating point units
609 2011-02-23 02:16:43 <bk128> so why can't the 6900 do as many integer ops?
610 2011-02-23 02:16:49 <ArtForz> less units
611 2011-02-23 02:17:03 <ArtForz> 5xxx has a slightly different setup
612 2011-02-23 02:17:28 <ArtForz> for 5xxx each VLIW can do 4 simple SP + 1 complex SP or 1 DP operation per clock, and again integer stuff counts like simple SP
613 2011-02-23 02:17:50 <bk128> ohh
614 2011-02-23 02:18:13 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
615 2011-02-23 02:18:30 <ArtForz> so a 6970 has 1536 execution units = 384 VLIWs
616 2011-02-23 02:18:41 <ArtForz> 16 VLIWs form one SIMD
617 2011-02-23 02:19:21 <ArtForz> anyways
618 2011-02-23 02:19:33 ForceMajeure has quit ()
619 2011-02-23 02:19:47 <ArtForz> simple fact is, 5870 = 1600 units @ 850MHz, 6970 = 1536 units @ 880MHz
620 2011-02-23 02:19:59 <[Tycho]> So all 16 WLIWs should contain same operation ?
621 2011-02-23 02:20:06 <ArtForz> yep
622 2011-02-23 02:20:18 <ArtForz> if they dont, units sit around idle
623 2011-02-23 02:20:32 <ArtForz> thats why localworksize should be a multiple of 64
624 2011-02-23 02:20:48 <[Tycho]> Why it's called VLIW then if it's only data, not the instruction itself ?
625 2011-02-23 02:21:01 <bk128> what does CU's mean?
626 2011-02-23 02:21:04 <ArtForz> because the VLIWs actually are VLIW
627 2011-02-23 02:21:37 <[Tycho]> So they CAN contain different instructions, but this makes them slow ?
628 2011-02-23 02:21:40 <ArtForz> the arch is really a bit hard to explain
629 2011-02-23 02:22:02 <bk128> yeah. I'm trying to read the docs
630 2011-02-23 02:22:03 <ArtForz> one SIMD contains 16 VLIW units
631 2011-02-23 02:22:18 <ArtForz> all VLIWs in a SIMD need to execute the same code
632 2011-02-23 02:22:32 <bk128> one instruction operates on 16 VLIWs
633 2011-02-23 02:22:36 <ArtForz> yes
634 2011-02-23 02:22:38 <[Tycho]> I tried to learn about EPIC VLIW on CPU, but this looks a bit different :)
635 2011-02-23 02:22:43 <bk128> each VLIW is 64 bits?
636 2011-02-23 02:22:48 <bk128> wait, no
637 2011-02-23 02:22:50 <ArtForz> but one VLIW instruction actually contains 4 or 5 opcodes
638 2011-02-23 02:23:10 <ArtForz> one for each unit in a VLIW
639 2011-02-23 02:23:21 <jgarzik> ia64 is fun!
640 2011-02-23 02:23:41 <ArtForz> for 5xxx, units in a VLIW are named x,y,z,w and t
641 2011-02-23 02:23:47 <[Tycho]> ia64 is, but it's not so parallel :)
642 2011-02-23 02:23:51 <bk128> so are VLIWs longer in the 5900 than the 6900?
643 2011-02-23 02:23:55 <ArtForz> yes
644 2011-02-23 02:24:00 <bk128> by 32 bits
645 2011-02-23 02:24:03 <bk128> + opcode
646 2011-02-23 02:24:29 <ArtForz> opcodes are 64 bits for each unit + up to 128 bits of imemdiate constants
647 2011-02-23 02:25:13 <ArtForz> *immediate
648 2011-02-23 02:25:28 <[Tycho]> What is that SIMD then ? "SIMD" means "Single instruction...", but it's not single there.
649 2011-02-23 02:25:31 <ArtForz> yes
650 2011-02-23 02:25:36 <ArtForz> okay, lemme explain
651 2011-02-23 02:25:44 <ArtForz> you have x,y,z,w,t units in a VLIW
652 2011-02-23 02:25:59 <bk128> unsigned ints
653 2011-02-23 02:26:01 <ArtForz> the VLIW opcode contains a sperate instuction for each unit (well, it's VLIW after all...)
654 2011-02-23 02:26:11 <ArtForz> units, not uints
655 2011-02-23 02:26:17 <bk128> oh :)
656 2011-02-23 02:26:23 <ArtForz> execution units, ALUs, whatever you wanna call em
657 2011-02-23 02:26:26 <bk128> can be floats or dp floats
658 2011-02-23 02:26:40 <[Tycho]> But only one instruction decoder per 16 of them ?
659 2011-02-23 02:26:53 <ArtForz> yes
660 2011-02-23 02:27:01 <[Tycho]> Oh, got it now.
661 2011-02-23 02:27:19 <[Tycho]> Well, mostly :)
662 2011-02-23 02:27:36 <ArtForz> it gets even funner
663 2011-02-23 02:27:54 <ArtForz> the data paths to/from the VLIWs are 128 bits wide
664 2011-02-23 02:28:07 <ArtForz> but... you have *5* 32 bit units on 58xx
665 2011-02-23 02:28:37 <ArtForz> thats why getting good instruction packing is so hard for 5xxx
666 2011-02-23 02:28:45 <bk128> some of the data has to be immediate?
667 2011-02-23 02:28:48 <ArtForz> yep
668 2011-02-23 02:29:10 <ArtForz> or you have to arrange stuff so 2 operations share inputs
669 2011-02-23 02:29:20 <[Tycho]> And branching (if any) goes only for entire SIMD ?
670 2011-02-23 02:29:25 <ArtForz> yes
671 2011-02-23 02:30:26 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats 1200000
672 2011-02-23 02:30:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109816 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 1063 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 10 hours, 48 minutes, and 29 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49460.49127655
673 2011-02-23 02:30:38 <ArtForz> oh, and while you have 1-cycle throughput, you actually have 4-cycle latency
674 2011-02-23 02:30:43 <da2ce7> ;;bc,calc 1200000, 50000
675 2011-02-23 02:30:44 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
676 2011-02-23 02:30:51 <da2ce7> ;;bc,calcd 1200000, 50000
677 2011-02-23 02:30:51 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
678 2011-02-23 02:30:55 <ArtForz> thats why you need 64 "threads" aka localworksize for the 16 units in a SIMD
679 2011-02-23 02:30:58 <bk128> ;;bc,calcd 1200000 50000
680 2011-02-23 02:30:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 50000, is 2 days, 1 hour, 42 minutes, and 36 seconds
681 2011-02-23 02:31:12 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,calcd 950000 50000
682 2011-02-23 02:31:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 950000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 50000, is 2 days, 14 hours, 47 minutes, and 30 seconds
683 2011-02-23 02:31:14 <bk128> ;;bc,calcd 1000000 50000
684 2011-02-23 02:31:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 50000, is 2 days, 11 hours, 39 minutes, and 8 seconds
685 2011-02-23 02:31:18 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,calcd 850000 50000
686 2011-02-23 02:31:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 850000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 50000, is 2 days, 22 hours, 10 minutes, and 45 seconds
687 2011-02-23 02:31:45 <Blitzboom> ;;bc,calcd 320000 50000
688 2011-02-23 02:31:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 320000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 50000, is 1 week, 0 days, 18 hours, 24 minutes, and 48 seconds
689 2011-02-23 02:31:51 <Blitzboom> hmm
690 2011-02-23 02:32:06 <Blitzboom> guess iâll go pooled then â¦
691 2011-02-23 02:32:08 <ArtForz> really takes a while to wrap your head around ATIs shader arch
692 2011-02-23 02:32:12 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, i tried to change worksize of a miner, but didn't noticed any significant difference.
693 2011-02-23 02:32:31 <ArtForz> well, because beyond 64 it doesnt really help much
694 2011-02-23 02:32:54 <ArtForz> worksizes > 64 help if you have to mask waits for RAM
695 2011-02-23 02:33:19 <ArtForz> the inner loop of the kernel executes in registers only
696 2011-02-23 02:33:26 <[Tycho]> People recommends lowering w down to 64
697 2011-02-23 02:33:30 <ArtForz> yep
698 2011-02-23 02:33:40 <ArtForz> because total # of registers is limited
699 2011-02-23 02:33:59 <ArtForz> and beyond 128 localworksize you get register starved for sha256
700 2011-02-23 02:35:23 <ArtForz> you have something like 16384 32-bit registers per SIMD
701 2011-02-23 02:35:39 <ArtForz> which get split up among localworksize "threads"
702 2011-02-23 02:36:11 Slix` has joined
703 2011-02-23 02:36:36 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, thanks for explaining all this stuff :)
704 2011-02-23 02:36:39 <ArtForz> it's described pretty well in the archi docs
705 2011-02-23 02:37:14 <ArtForz> what really surprised me, the ELF format used for shader binaries is fully documented
706 2011-02-23 02:39:32 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 100000000000
707 2011-02-23 02:39:33 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 second
708 2011-02-23 02:39:39 <luke-jr> :o
709 2011-02-23 02:41:09 <comboy> that would be cool
710 2011-02-23 02:43:05 jroz has joined
711 2011-02-23 02:51:52 lordmortis has joined
712 2011-02-23 02:52:40 jroz has left ()
713 2011-02-23 02:53:11 HarryS has joined
714 2011-02-23 02:59:23 <luke-jr> comboy: it wouldn't last, and would kill bitcoin
715 2011-02-23 03:00:32 <comboy> luke, I'm your father
716 2011-02-23 03:01:30 <docl> comboy: your name's luke too? we should start a club...
717 2011-02-23 03:06:18 lordmortis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
718 2011-02-23 03:06:44 <luke-jr> comboy: USE THE SOURCE, LUKE
719 2011-02-23 03:06:47 lordmortis has joined
720 2011-02-23 03:06:55 lordmortis has quit (Client Quit)
721 2011-02-23 03:10:17 <JFK911> I did an experiment. I'm shutting the miner off, for the ;;bc,calc average duration for my hash rate, after i get a block.
722 2011-02-23 03:10:26 <JFK911> Turns out I get a new block shortly after I bring it back up.
723 2011-02-23 03:10:27 Kiba has joined
724 2011-02-23 03:10:47 <JFK911> That's been happening reliably for four iterations. I'm saving heaps of electricity.
725 2011-02-23 03:12:57 <Kiba> JFK911: hey. what ya talking about?
726 2011-02-23 03:13:43 <Kiba> it seem that the price of bitcoin is recovering
727 2011-02-23 03:17:52 <citiz3n> yeah, what is JFK911 talking about?
728 2011-02-23 03:18:13 <ArtForz> superstition
729 2011-02-23 03:18:56 <citiz3n> doesn't seem like a sound strategy
730 2011-02-23 03:19:12 <ArtForz> of course it isnt
731 2011-02-23 03:19:50 <ArtForz> random events + gamblers fallacy + confirmation bias = fun ;)
732 2011-02-23 03:21:58 <[Tycho]> You can also save a lot of money by not buying lottery tickets.
733 2011-02-23 03:23:34 <Blitzboom> what do you guys think? does bitcoin have the potential to replace all kinds of money?
734 2011-02-23 03:23:45 <Blitzboom> or will it rather be an internet currency?
735 2011-02-23 03:23:58 <[Tycho]> It's hard to believe.
736 2011-02-23 03:24:29 <Blitzboom> we could make it happen
737 2011-02-23 03:24:36 <[Tycho]> I even doubt that BTC will cost $10 a piece.
738 2011-02-23 03:24:56 <jgarzik> replace all kinds of money? absolutely not.
739 2011-02-23 03:25:03 <[Tycho]> Being a pessimist makes my life happier.
740 2011-02-23 03:25:08 <brunner> what exchangers accept wires to/from Sweden?
741 2011-02-23 03:25:27 <echelon> brunner, #bitcoin-otc
742 2011-02-23 03:25:33 <brunner> sorry
743 2011-02-23 03:25:44 <echelon> np :)
744 2011-02-23 03:26:08 <jgarzik> brunner: change krona for euro. euro can be used at mtgox.com or bitcoin-central.net
745 2011-02-23 03:26:10 <docl> it won't replace debt-based currency
746 2011-02-23 03:26:19 <JFK911> It could be superstition, but more likely is i'm in tune to the quantum state of the bitcoin network.
747 2011-02-23 03:26:29 <Blitzboom> what will it replace then?
748 2011-02-23 03:26:42 <Blitzboom> gold? lol
749 2011-02-23 03:26:59 <docl> JFK911: you may be interested in quantum suicide
750 2011-02-23 03:27:03 Gaming4JC has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
751 2011-02-23 03:27:16 <echelon> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tor ..what's the point of this entry?
752 2011-02-23 03:27:29 <brunner> Blitzboom: yes, it has that potential, but we'll see if it every happens
753 2011-02-23 03:27:30 <docl> if being unlucky = being dead, you pretty much have to be lucky.
754 2011-02-23 03:27:33 <ArtForz> I can see it displacing other online currencies
755 2011-02-23 03:27:43 <echelon> it has instructions for configuring mirc with tor
756 2011-02-23 03:28:01 <JFK911> docl: There can't be quantum suicide. That would disrupt all balance and destroy the universe. Stop being so silly.
757 2011-02-23 03:28:21 <echelon> and the instructions for adding hidden service nodes is wrong
758 2011-02-23 03:29:36 <docl> JFK911: you can improve your bitcoin generation rate by triggering immediate death if you fail to find a block in a small number of tries. in all universes where you survive, you'll be rich!
759 2011-02-23 03:31:28 <Kiba> docl: I don't think that work
760 2011-02-23 03:32:02 <[Tycho]> Kiba, why not ?
761 2011-02-23 03:32:06 <Kiba> I wonder if anybody will ever be able to figure out who satoshi is
762 2011-02-23 03:32:19 <Kiba> [Tycho]: because you might be dead in this universe
763 2011-02-23 03:32:44 <[Tycho]> May be his character was already disincarnated.
764 2011-02-23 03:33:12 <[Tycho]> Kiba, you don't understand how this works :)
765 2011-02-23 03:34:22 <xelister> anyone knows JS and has 5 minutes and wants 1 BTC ? (i'm off too bed) -> then answer this triviall JS question "<toad_> can anyone give me javascript to hide a div if the page is not being accessed over SSL?" on channel #freenet and poke me tommorow for your loot 1 btc =)
766 2011-02-23 03:34:31 <xelister> assuming toad doesnt get this help elsewhere ifrst
767 2011-02-23 03:35:12 <echelon> xelister, you just regex the url
768 2011-02-23 03:35:22 <xelister> echelon: msg toad Im sleeping =)
769 2011-02-23 03:35:29 <echelon> oh kk
770 2011-02-23 03:35:33 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: we need to give people a reason to use it instead of XYZ
771 2011-02-23 03:35:52 <Blitzboom> we need more businesses to adapt it â¦
772 2011-02-23 03:35:58 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: why would they?
773 2011-02-23 03:36:13 <Blitzboom> why would people?
774 2011-02-23 03:36:24 <luke-jr> I adopt it so I can use the Tonal system for currency.
775 2011-02-23 03:36:35 <luke-jr> others have other reasons
776 2011-02-23 03:36:37 <Blitzboom> checken-egg-dilemma
777 2011-02-23 03:38:41 <Kiba> docl: is there alway a universe in which I am alive?
778 2011-02-23 03:39:57 <[Tycho]> Yes.
779 2011-02-23 03:40:11 <[Tycho]> But usually it's not this one.
780 2011-02-23 03:40:49 <tcatm> ;;bc,blocks
781 2011-02-23 03:40:51 <gribble> 109823
782 2011-02-23 03:41:05 Shfork has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
783 2011-02-23 03:41:09 <[Tycho]> (well, at least if you believe in strange quantum mechanics :)
784 2011-02-23 03:42:02 <[Tycho]> Some things that are indeed strange were proved by experiments.
785 2011-02-23 04:04:36 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
786 2011-02-23 04:04:39 <phantomcircuit> lol @ current exchane rates there is nearly 5 million USD in bTC
787 2011-02-23 04:04:41 <phantomcircuit> BTC*
788 2011-02-23 04:04:46 <phantomcircuit> exchange*
789 2011-02-23 04:04:46 <kupo> phantomcircuit: nice
790 2011-02-23 04:04:48 <phantomcircuit> wow fail
791 2011-02-23 04:07:27 malfy has quit (Read error: No route to host)
792 2011-02-23 04:08:02 malfy_ has joined
793 2011-02-23 04:15:13 dirtyfilthy has joined
794 2011-02-23 04:17:37 <luke-jr> Kiba: there is always a possibility you are alive ;)
795 2011-02-23 04:22:08 <Kiba> luke-jr: almost died three times
796 2011-02-23 04:24:46 <luke-jr> Kiba: you exist in many possible worlds, and also the real world :P
797 2011-02-23 04:26:21 dwdollar has joined
798 2011-02-23 04:33:38 dwdollar has left ()
799 2011-02-23 04:34:11 <afed_> SLUSH
800 2011-02-23 04:40:36 <jgarzik> POWDER
801 2011-02-23 04:42:37 <Kiba> jgarzik: how's pastecoin?
802 2011-02-23 04:43:09 <jgarzik> Kiba: base site was delivered today.. yay! :) Now I can move forward.
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808 2011-02-23 05:03:04 <bk128> ;;bc,blocks
809 2011-02-23 05:03:05 <gribble> 109834
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823 2011-02-23 05:59:58 <necrodearia> Has there been any effort to establish bitcoin to be included in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_4217 ?
824 2011-02-23 06:01:14 <necrodearia> http://www.iso.org/iso/home.html
825 2011-02-23 06:01:36 <necrodearia> Contact them and suggest to add support for bitcoin? http://central@iso.org/
826 2011-02-23 06:01:39 <necrodearia> durr
827 2011-02-23 06:02:00 <Blitzboom> do it
828 2011-02-23 06:02:15 <necrodearia> Apparently ISO fails at making an email link
829 2011-02-23 06:02:27 <necrodearia> central@iso.org
830 2011-02-23 06:02:57 <afed_> lol do they have published criteria?
831 2011-02-23 06:03:11 <afed_> if they do, bitcoin won't meet it
832 2011-02-23 06:03:17 <afed_> if they don't, bitcoin DEFINITELY won't meet it
833 2011-02-23 06:03:45 <afed_> just trade, the marketplace doesn't give a FUCK if there is a currency code
834 2011-02-23 06:04:54 <necrodearia> Someone should add Bitcoin to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_circulating_currencies
835 2011-02-23 06:05:09 <necrodearia> And link the bitcoin wikipedia article
836 2011-02-23 06:05:15 * necrodearia adds it
837 2011-02-23 06:05:29 <necrodearia> Actually, I won't
838 2011-02-23 06:05:33 <necrodearia> I'll let someone else add it.
839 2011-02-23 06:06:06 <necrodearia> territory could be established as "International"
840 2011-02-23 06:06:55 <necrodearia> http://www.currency-iso.org/iso_index/iso_tables/iso_tables_a1.htm
841 2011-02-23 06:07:51 <JFK911> universal currency
842 2011-02-23 06:09:07 <bk128> ;;bc,blocks
843 2011-02-23 06:09:08 <gribble> 109841
844 2011-02-23 06:12:06 <necrodearia> http://www.iso.org/iso/support/faqs/faqs_standards.htm Technology moves on - what about ISO standards?
845 2011-02-23 06:16:09 <necrodearia> wow, http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=52600 from 2008 is free
846 2011-02-23 06:16:19 <necrodearia> but http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=46121 from last month is not
847 2011-02-23 06:16:38 <necrodearia> 27th edition
848 2011-02-23 06:16:39 <necrodearia> 7th edition
849 2011-02-23 06:16:50 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
850 2011-02-23 06:17:25 <necrodearia> http://www.iso.org/iso/standards_development/maintenance_agencies.htm#4217
851 2011-02-23 06:17:40 <necrodearia> contact @ office@currency-iso.org
852 2011-02-23 06:17:46 Bth8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
853 2011-02-23 06:19:22 <necrodearia> Otherwise if someone lives in Switzerland or can call +41 58 399 4255 then perhaps they can be contacted locally or by phone
854 2011-02-23 06:20:15 <necrodearia> There is no country or governmental entity to support or back a currency. e.g. no government agency to contact ISO non-governmental organization to influence or convince them to add the currency to their standards.
855 2011-02-23 06:20:26 <necrodearia> There is only us, individuals that are participative in using and accepting Bitcoin.
856 2011-02-23 06:21:12 <necrodearia> So, I suggest or recommend many of us collectively contact the ISO and express to them to add it to their standards and also spread the word to others to do the same until they accept it?
857 2011-02-23 06:21:14 Bth8 has joined
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859 2011-02-23 06:25:42 <necrodearia> Maybe if ISO accepts payment in Bitcoins for buying their products or supporting them with donations, THEn they will add it to their standards? ^_^
860 2011-02-23 06:26:16 JxcelDolghmQ has joined
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865 2011-02-23 06:43:27 bitcoinballin has joined
866 2011-02-23 06:44:22 <bitcoinballin> hello, anyone on right now?
867 2011-02-23 06:45:06 JxcelDolghmQ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
868 2011-02-23 06:46:21 <nanotube> bitcoinballin: nope
869 2011-02-23 06:46:21 <nanotube> :)
870 2011-02-23 06:46:33 <bitcoinballin> lol didnt think so
871 2011-02-23 06:46:55 <ElectRo`> ;;bc,calcd 21000
872 2011-02-23 06:46:56 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
873 2011-02-23 06:47:10 <ElectRo`> ;;bc,calcd 21000 36000
874 2011-02-23 06:47:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 21000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 36000, is 12 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 13 minutes, and 21 seconds
875 2011-02-23 06:48:39 <bitcoinballin> soo... I'm extremely new to this whole BC thing. I just discovered TOR like 48 hours ago and haven't left my computer since! Is BC really a legit currency?
876 2011-02-23 06:49:23 JxcelDolghmQ has joined
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878 2011-02-23 06:51:48 <nanotube> bitcoinballin: as legit as anything else.
879 2011-02-23 06:52:04 <nanotube> it's just a digital token, that people choose to use as a medium of exchange
880 2011-02-23 06:53:31 <bitcoinballin> I've heard that it can't be falsified, double-spent, etc. But what if you can break the encryption of bitcoins? couldnt you ruin the economic system?
881 2011-02-23 06:53:42 <bitcoinballin> of BC that is?
882 2011-02-23 06:54:20 <bitcoinballin> and arent we using some sort of device that "sells" your CPU cycles for bitcoins?
883 2011-02-23 06:54:22 <nanotube> bitcoinballin: yes... and you could also break a bunch of other stuff if you can break sha256 and ecdsa.
884 2011-02-23 06:55:33 <bitcoinballin> so has anyone done it? ive seen cluster systems that are just mind-blowing and considering that nerds are the only people that use it anyway isn't it possible if not probable that this could happen?
885 2011-02-23 06:55:36 <nanotube> if device == software, then yes...
886 2011-02-23 06:56:49 <Mango-chan> guys
887 2011-02-23 06:56:51 <Mango-chan> should i get a x120e?
888 2011-02-23 06:58:35 malfy_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
889 2011-02-23 06:58:44 malfy has joined
890 2011-02-23 06:59:16 <bitcoinballin> or whats to prevent some sort of cabal that is in control of, or takes conrol of the nodes that save transaction history and modify the logs to erase transaction history? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound whiney... I love the concept of an open-source currency, but I want more assurance that its better than real currency...
891 2011-02-23 07:01:01 <bitcoinballin> or i should say, not just the same thing as real currency. and what are the cpu cycles used for?
892 2011-02-23 07:01:10 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki how bitcoin works
893 2011-02-23 07:01:11 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works | Jan 15, 2011 ... This page explains the basic framework of how Bitcoin works. Ideally, it'll be accessible to the "literate layman". ...
894 2011-02-23 07:01:24 <nanotube> bitcoinballin: --^ start from there... click around read some more.
895 2011-02-23 07:01:48 jgarzik has joined
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900 2011-02-23 07:19:46 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 21001
901 2011-02-23 07:19:47 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 21001 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 12 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours, 15 minutes, and 3 seconds
902 2011-02-23 07:21:44 ThomasV has joined
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904 2011-02-23 07:32:57 dissipate has joined
905 2011-02-23 07:33:50 <dissipate> hello
906 2011-02-23 07:34:08 <soultcer> G'day
907 2011-02-23 07:37:37 RazielZ has joined
908 2011-02-23 07:43:29 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,calc 2100
909 2011-02-23 07:43:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2100 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 years, 19 weeks, 0 days, 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 41 seconds
910 2011-02-23 07:44:47 <phantomcircuit> 0.07USD/kWh*10 Watts*(2 years, 19 weeks, 0 days, 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 41 seconds) ~= 14 USD
911 2011-02-23 07:44:55 <jlk102935908a> ;;bc,calc 36000
912 2011-02-23 07:44:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 36000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 7 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 17 minutes, and 13 seconds
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920 2011-02-23 07:51:02 <hwolf> ;;bc,calc 1200000
921 2011-02-23 07:51:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 14 minutes, and 55 seconds
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958 2011-02-23 08:43:48 <mekel> anyone up?
959 2011-02-23 08:45:10 molecular has joined
960 2011-02-23 08:45:45 <mekel> when i try to run poclbm.exe i get an error saying i have the program failed to run because it is configured improparly.. any ideas?
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962 2011-02-23 08:51:06 FellowTraveler1 has joined
963 2011-02-23 08:51:45 <FellowTraveler1> hi all.
964 2011-02-23 08:51:57 vfr has joined
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972 2011-02-23 09:02:20 <phantomcircuit> mekel, yes the program is configured improperly
973 2011-02-23 09:02:34 <mekel> where did i mess up do you think
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987 2011-02-23 09:13:12 <mekel> any one know what can cause the error message The application has failed to start because the application configuration is incorrect. Reinstalling may fix the problem. Any ideas??
988 2011-02-23 09:13:30 <mekel> for poclbm.exe
989 2011-02-23 09:16:42 ThomasV has joined
990 2011-02-23 09:17:38 <phantomcircuit> mekel, oh you're missing the opencl run times
991 2011-02-23 09:18:58 <mekel> hmm from the sdk?
992 2011-02-23 09:19:31 <mekel> im runnin the amd 6950 tried downloadin 2.3 sdk
993 2011-02-23 09:28:26 <Diablo-D3> thats the current network speed?
994 2011-02-23 09:29:02 ThomasV has left ("Quitte")
995 2011-02-23 09:29:27 alystair has quit (Quit: â(ã»_ã»)âOUTTA HEREâ(ã»oã»)â)
996 2011-02-23 09:31:53 mekel has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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998 2011-02-23 09:35:55 <mekel> just reinstalled my open cl drivers n stuff for the 6950 and im still getting app has failed to start because app configuration is incorrect. reinstalling may fix this problem
999 2011-02-23 09:35:58 <mekel> help :'(
1000 2011-02-23 09:36:29 <mekel> poclbm.exe is givin the error
1001 2011-02-23 09:37:23 <Diablo-D3> mekel: what did you install?
1002 2011-02-23 09:37:36 <Diablo-D3> because you should be installing catalyst 11.2 + opencl runtime in the installer
1003 2011-02-23 09:37:37 <mekel> http://sites.amd.com/us/game/downloads/Pages/radeon_xp-32.aspx
1004 2011-02-23 09:37:50 <Diablo-D3> and this applies only to you
1005 2011-02-23 09:37:57 <Diablo-D3> only 6xxx users
1006 2011-02-23 09:38:02 <mekel> hm
1007 2011-02-23 09:38:18 <mekel> thank u i will try
1008 2011-02-23 09:38:18 <Diablo-D3> everyone else needs catalyst 10.11 without opencl runtime, and then install sdk 2.1 on top of that
1009 2011-02-23 09:38:26 <sipa> ;;seen cosurgi
1010 2011-02-23 09:38:32 <mekel> 2.3 is no good?
1011 2011-02-23 09:38:40 <Diablo-D3> 2.3 is slower
1012 2011-02-23 09:38:41 <gribble> cosurgi was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 8 hours, 42 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <cosurgi> goodnight.
1013 2011-02-23 09:38:45 <Diablo-D3> but 2.1 doesnt suport 6xxx
1014 2011-02-23 09:39:46 <mekel> but 2.1 works on top of catal 11.2+open cl?
1015 2011-02-23 09:39:55 <Diablo-D3> no
1016 2011-02-23 09:40:00 <Diablo-D3> you cant use 2.1.
1017 2011-02-23 09:40:24 <mekel> o ok
1018 2011-02-23 09:40:29 <Diablo-D3> everyone else can
1019 2011-02-23 09:40:34 <mekel> lawl
1020 2011-02-23 09:40:35 <Diablo-D3> its _only_ 6xxx users that cant
1021 2011-02-23 09:40:51 <Diablo-D3> 5xxx users do 10.11 w/o opencl, and then install 2.1
1022 2011-02-23 09:41:03 <Diablo-D3> 6xxx users do 11.2 /w opencl
1023 2011-02-23 09:41:22 <Syke> I hate my 6950. I OCd from 850 to 900 and got absolutely no improvement in hashrate.
1024 2011-02-23 09:41:33 <Diablo-D3> Syke: you wont
1025 2011-02-23 09:41:43 <Diablo-D3> Syke: 69xx have EXTREMELY good TDP management
1026 2011-02-23 09:41:44 <sipa> it should give you some 5%
1027 2011-02-23 09:42:03 <Diablo-D3> Syke: so you gotta play with the PowerTune slider or whatever it is
1028 2011-02-23 09:42:07 <mekel> is there an 11.2 w/ opencl for xp 32bit
1029 2011-02-23 09:42:09 <mekel> >_<
1030 2011-02-23 09:42:13 <Diablo-D3> mekel: yes
1031 2011-02-23 09:42:19 <mekel> k
1032 2011-02-23 09:42:25 <Diablo-D3> mekel: I dont think AMD offers 11.2 on windows without it already in the installer
1033 2011-02-23 09:42:37 <Diablo-D3> I think its just an option now
1034 2011-02-23 09:42:40 <Diablo-D3> but I dont use windows
1035 2011-02-23 09:42:50 <mekel> qh
1036 2011-02-23 09:42:52 <mekel> ah*
1037 2011-02-23 09:45:20 <nevezen> has gpu mining gotten to the point where it's no longer profitable yet?
1038 2011-02-23 09:45:52 <Syke> nah
1039 2011-02-23 09:46:30 <mekel> its gotten more profitable imo
1040 2011-02-23 09:46:34 <mekel> bitcoin prices hav gone up
1041 2011-02-23 09:46:39 <mekel> last i chekd
1042 2011-02-23 09:46:51 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 1260000
1043 2011-02-23 09:46:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1260000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 34.7599476143 BTC per day and 1.4483311506 BTC per hour.
1044 2011-02-23 09:46:53 <nevezen> I mean coin generation/day..
1045 2011-02-23 09:47:11 <sipa> coin generation/day is obviously falling
1046 2011-02-23 09:47:23 <sipa> but that isn't necessarily a problem, if the value of btc's goes up
1047 2011-02-23 09:47:31 <mekel> indeed
1048 2011-02-23 09:48:00 <nevezen> itms gone back down to <1 usd though
1049 2011-02-23 09:49:08 <nevezen> ;;bc,gen 22000
1050 2011-02-23 09:49:09 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 22000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 0.60691972025 BTC per day and 0.0252883216771 BTC per hour.
1051 2011-02-23 09:49:24 <nevezen> ouchie
1052 2011-02-23 09:50:10 <nevezen> with or without a pool, i don't think this is going to help..
1053 2011-02-23 09:50:11 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,gen 2100
1054 2011-02-23 09:50:13 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2100 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 0.0579332460239 BTC per day and 0.00241388525099 BTC per hour.
1055 2011-02-23 09:50:16 <phantomcircuit> lol
1056 2011-02-23 09:50:25 <phantomcircuit> my sad Quadros NVS 140M
1057 2011-02-23 09:51:04 <nevezen> my sad 8800GT ;)
1058 2011-02-23 09:51:34 <mekel> iv been runnin on my 9800m gts on my lappy and was lik F this wehn i saw how much the 6850 was pushin
1059 2011-02-23 09:51:43 <mekel> so i bought a 6950
1060 2011-02-23 09:51:50 <mekel> they can b modded into 80's cant they?
1061 2011-02-23 09:52:15 <nevezen> don't know, don't really care :)
1062 2011-02-23 09:52:17 <phantomcircuit> yeah not worth it
1063 2011-02-23 09:52:22 <mekel> haha
1064 2011-02-23 09:52:40 <phantomcircuit> my 140M will consume 0.24 USD in electricity daily
1065 2011-02-23 09:52:54 <mekel> i hav paid electricity
1066 2011-02-23 09:52:56 <mekel> not in my thoughts
1067 2011-02-23 09:53:01 <nevezen> dont think a lone 6950 would help much either
1068 2011-02-23 09:53:47 slush has joined
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1070 2011-02-23 09:54:39 <nevezen> I think if you want to be at least profitable on your own, you'd invest in multiple 6950's than just one..
1071 2011-02-23 09:57:51 mekel has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1073 2011-02-23 09:58:19 <mekel> it didnt work :(
1074 2011-02-23 09:58:20 <mekel> 11.2
1075 2011-02-23 09:58:28 <mekel> still gettn the same error
1076 2011-02-23 10:03:04 <Diablo-D3> then your shits broke somewhere
1077 2011-02-23 10:03:06 <Diablo-D3> try my miner
1078 2011-02-23 10:04:03 <molecular> ;;bc,calcd 670000
1079 2011-02-23 10:04:04 <gribble> (bc,calcd <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1080 2011-02-23 10:04:14 <molecular> ;;bc,calc 670000
1081 2011-02-23 10:04:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 670000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 days, 16 hours, 55 minutes, and 22 seconds
1082 2011-02-23 10:04:15 <hwolf> how many wats does a generic dual 5970 rig use?
1083 2011-02-23 10:04:25 <dirtyfilthy> over9000
1084 2011-02-23 10:04:54 <hwolf> i mean watts
1085 2011-02-23 10:04:58 <molecular> hwolf: would guess around 750W at plug
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1087 2011-02-23 10:05:06 <hwolf> k
1088 2011-02-23 10:05:10 <molecular> my singles 5970 uses 380W oced
1089 2011-02-23 10:05:11 <sipa> our dual 5970 uses some 620W i think
1090 2011-02-23 10:05:32 <molecular> sipa, really?
1091 2011-02-23 10:05:47 <Diablo-D3> no
1092 2011-02-23 10:05:54 <Diablo-D3> oh, OCed?
1093 2011-02-23 10:05:55 satamusic has joined
1094 2011-02-23 10:05:55 <Diablo-D3> sure.
1095 2011-02-23 10:06:02 <hwolf> anybody messed with water cooling? That just makes cooling more efficient right? I am thinking of getting a car radiator + refrigerator
1096 2011-02-23 10:06:25 <molecular> sipa, seems low, a stock 5970 should use 300W for itself, what about board and psu inefficiency?
1097 2011-02-23 10:06:30 <hwolf> and pumping cool water to the cards. figure I can find it cheap on craigs list
1098 2011-02-23 10:06:51 <molecular> I just put my miner outside -> very good cooling at this time of year ;)
1099 2011-02-23 10:07:00 <hwolf> lol thats smart
1100 2011-02-23 10:07:12 <hwolf> where do you live can I drop by late at night to just look?
1101 2011-02-23 10:07:18 <molecular> had to build another case around it though, with air-ducts and shit, because of snow, rain and wind
1102 2011-02-23 10:07:19 <sipa> molecular: 300W is max spec
1103 2011-02-23 10:07:29 <hwolf> thats pretty cool
1104 2011-02-23 10:07:30 <molecular> hwolf: hamburg
1105 2011-02-23 10:07:32 grifferz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1106 2011-02-23 10:07:35 <sipa> molecular: in practice it's close to that of course
1107 2011-02-23 10:07:44 <hwolf> I was thinking of putting a radiator outside and pumping cold water to the cards
1108 2011-02-23 10:08:21 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1109 2011-02-23 10:08:28 lordmortis has quit (Quit: Bye!)
1110 2011-02-23 10:08:36 <mekel> diabl i hav ur miner saved into my bitcoin directory.. no idea how to run it
1111 2011-02-23 10:08:45 <molecular> hwolf, you can do that. but various problems might pop up
1112 2011-02-23 10:09:03 <hwolf> yeah, water everywhere would be bad
1113 2011-02-23 10:09:05 <molecular> hwolf, you should check some ati overclocker's forums. I'm sure it's been done
1114 2011-02-23 10:09:34 <hwolf> anybody put 4 x 5970's in one motherboard?
1115 2011-02-23 10:09:40 TD has joined
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1117 2011-02-23 10:09:57 <molecular> mekel, DISPLAY=:0 ./DiabloMiner-Linux.sh -u user -p password -o host -r port
1118 2011-02-23 10:10:23 <mekel> so i put Windows.sh?
1119 2011-02-23 10:10:25 <molecular> hwolf, ask artforz
1120 2011-02-23 10:10:40 <molecular> mekel, probably
1121 2011-02-23 10:10:58 <Diablo-D3> oh hes on windows?
1122 2011-02-23 10:11:05 * molecular wonders about the windows-user-count in here ;)
1123 2011-02-23 10:11:06 <Diablo-D3> mekel: read the op post on the thread
1124 2011-02-23 10:11:14 <molecular> mekel, install linux first
1125 2011-02-23 10:11:23 <mekel> lol
1126 2011-02-23 10:11:31 <mekel> . . .
1127 2011-02-23 10:11:32 <molecular> mekel, and: not in a vm ;)
1128 2011-02-23 10:11:38 <Diablo-D3> there isnt a DiabloMiner-Windows.bat yet because no one has written one
1129 2011-02-23 10:11:48 <mekel> sad face
1130 2011-02-23 10:11:51 <molecular> mekel, do it other way around: linux host, win in vm
1131 2011-02-23 10:12:11 <molecular> can't be that hard, though, right?
1132 2011-02-23 10:12:12 <Diablo-D3> mekel: just read the op thread, instructions how to run are there
1133 2011-02-23 10:12:13 <mekel> do any windows miners work for 6950 yet?
1134 2011-02-23 10:12:16 <molecular> just use the linux one as basis
1135 2011-02-23 10:14:53 <mekel> what is an op post
1136 2011-02-23 10:15:14 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1140 2011-02-23 10:22:04 TD_ is now known as TD
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1143 2011-02-23 10:25:21 <slush> ;;bc,stats
1144 2011-02-23 10:25:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 109883 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 996 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 2 hours, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49603.87323292
1145 2011-02-23 10:28:22 <mekel> Could not find the main class: java.library.path=c:\bitcoin\diablominer\target\l ibs\natives\windows. Program will exit.
1146 2011-02-23 10:31:45 satamusic has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1147 2011-02-23 10:33:02 FellowTraveler1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1148 2011-02-23 10:33:15 satamusic has joined
1149 2011-02-23 10:34:58 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
1150 2011-02-23 10:34:58 noagendamarket has joined
1151 2011-02-23 10:35:42 ArtForz has joined
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1153 2011-02-23 10:40:31 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1154 2011-02-23 10:40:43 <mekel> diablo-d3: im getting this error now
1155 2011-02-23 10:40:44 <mekel> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/diablominer/Diabl oMiner/DiabloMiner Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloM iner at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(Unknown Source) at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method) at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(Unknown Source) at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
1156 2011-02-23 10:42:33 <Diablo-D3> mekel: you didnt read the instructions.
1157 2011-02-23 10:42:45 <mekel> *commits suicide*
1158 2011-02-23 10:42:50 <Diablo-D3> run the command in the op post of the forum thread.
1159 2011-02-23 10:42:57 <mekel> whats an op post
1160 2011-02-23 10:43:27 <mekel> this cmd?
1161 2011-02-23 10:43:28 <mekel> java -cp target\libs\*;target\DiabloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows
1162 2011-02-23 10:43:53 tg has joined
1163 2011-02-23 10:44:01 <molecular> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.0 <- Diablo-D3, this thread?
1164 2011-02-23 10:44:18 <molecular> I think mekel is not finding the thread
1165 2011-02-23 10:44:32 <mekel> iv been staring at that threat
1166 2011-02-23 10:44:35 <mekel> thread
1167 2011-02-23 10:44:55 <molecular> unfortunately, I don't know what's meant by "op thread" either ;|
1168 2011-02-23 10:44:57 <mekel> its written like ur expected to know everything
1169 2011-02-23 10:45:05 <mekel> :|
1170 2011-02-23 10:45:20 <mekel> op official post? i hav no idea lol
1171 2011-02-23 10:45:26 <molecular> yeah, well, mostly geeks here
1172 2011-02-23 10:45:35 <molecular> newbies welcome, but some thinking required ;)
1173 2011-02-23 10:45:40 <mekel> i am trying
1174 2011-02-23 10:45:45 <mekel> its 6 am here
1175 2011-02-23 10:45:54 <molecular> up that early, I think not!
1176 2011-02-23 10:46:05 <mekel> ya iv been up today and yesterday tryin to get this stuff goin
1177 2011-02-23 10:47:36 <molecular> is that a ";" or a ":" after "-cp target\libs\*", merkel?
1178 2011-02-23 10:47:36 <mekel> what is ment by this : Also, I don't think that java is appended to PATH by default, so you will probably want to add that as well to use 'java' from the command line Code: C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre6\bin
1179 2011-02-23 10:47:50 <molecular> that's not your problem
1180 2011-02-23 10:47:51 <mekel> its a ;
1181 2011-02-23 10:47:53 <molecular> java starts fine
1182 2011-02-23 10:48:00 <molecular> try a ":" (wild guess)
1183 2011-02-23 10:48:02 <mekel> i copied that line from the site
1184 2011-02-23 10:48:03 <mekel> ok
1185 2011-02-23 10:48:13 <molecular> it's not finding stuff from target\DiabloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar it seems
1186 2011-02-23 10:48:15 <mekel> nothing
1187 2011-02-23 10:48:23 <sipa> it's ; on windows i think
1188 2011-02-23 10:48:29 <sipa> since : is a drive designator there
1189 2011-02-23 10:48:35 <molecular> oh, yeah
1190 2011-02-23 10:48:58 <mekel> hold on i will giv u entire error
1191 2011-02-23 10:49:40 <mekel> C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop>java -cp target\libs\*:target\Di abloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows min er.bitcoin.cz -w 64 -u user -p password Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: miner/bitcoin/cz Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: miner.bitcoin.cz at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(Unknown Source) at java.security.AccessCon
1192 2011-02-23 10:50:05 <mekel> those funky spaces are not there in real life
1193 2011-02-23 10:50:45 <molecular> that's different from above error you posted earlier
1194 2011-02-23 10:50:57 <sipa> he used : instead of ;
1195 2011-02-23 10:51:09 <molecular> there's something missing before "miner.bitcoin.cz"
1196 2011-02-23 10:51:15 <mekel> hm
1197 2011-02-23 10:51:21 <molecular> "-o"
1198 2011-02-23 10:51:29 <mekel> :o
1199 2011-02-23 10:51:33 <molecular> and sipa is right, use ";"
1200 2011-02-23 10:51:56 <sipa> that's not the problem
1201 2011-02-23 10:52:05 <molecular> java -cp target\libs\*:target\Di abloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows -o miner.bitcoin.cz -w 64 -u user -p password
1202 2011-02-23 10:52:06 <mekel> -o unrecognized
1203 2011-02-23 10:52:24 <molecular> java -cp target\libs\*:target\Di abloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows -h
1204 2011-02-23 10:52:29 <molecular> ^ does that work at all?
1205 2011-02-23 10:52:39 <sipa> it won't
1206 2011-02-23 10:52:51 <mekel> -h no good either
1207 2011-02-23 10:52:53 <[Noodles]> java -cp target\libs\*;target\DiabloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows com.diablominer.DiabloMiner.DiabloMiner -o mining.bitcoin.cz -r 8332 -u login.worker -p pass
1208 2011-02-23 10:52:58 <molecular> why, what's wrong with it, sipa?
1209 2011-02-23 10:52:59 <[Noodles]> try that
1210 2011-02-23 10:53:26 * molecular wonders why Diablo-D3 doesn't just put main class into Manifest.mf
1211 2011-02-23 10:53:39 <Diablo-D3> back
1212 2011-02-23 10:53:44 <Diablo-D3> [05:42:07] <mekel> C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop>java -cp target\libs\*:target\Di abloMiner-0.0.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -Djava.library.path=target\libs\natives\windows min er.bitcoin.cz -w 64 -u user -p password Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: miner/bitcoin/cz Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: miner.bitcoin.cz at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(Unknown Source)
1213 2011-02-23 10:53:44 <Diablo-D3> at java.security.AccessCo
1214 2011-02-23 10:53:45 <molecular> then one could start with "java -jar ...", no?
1215 2011-02-23 10:54:00 <Diablo-D3> mekel: no wonder your shits broke
1216 2011-02-23 10:54:15 <Diablo-D3> you're not even running that in the directory where you unzipped DiabloMiner
1217 2011-02-23 10:54:25 <molecular> are you sure
1218 2011-02-23 10:54:26 <Diablo-D3> molecular: wont do anything, I need custom java args
1219 2011-02-23 10:54:29 <molecular> he might have unzipped on Desktop
1220 2011-02-23 10:54:31 <mekel> hm
1221 2011-02-23 10:54:45 <Diablo-D3> molecular: it'd still be C:\Shit\Desktop\DiabloMiner
1222 2011-02-23 10:54:47 <molecular> mekel, what about using "-o mining.bitcoin.cz" instead of "mining.bitcoin.cz" ?
1223 2011-02-23 10:54:48 <mekel> i thot i told batch to cd to the right directory
1224 2011-02-23 10:55:03 slush has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1225 2011-02-23 10:55:14 <molecular> what batch?
1226 2011-02-23 10:55:33 <molecular> just "cd DiablominerDir" and try again
1227 2011-02-23 10:55:43 <mekel> ok
1228 2011-02-23 10:55:49 grondilu has joined
1229 2011-02-23 10:56:15 <mekel> ok ubr new error
1230 2011-02-23 10:56:22 <mekel> this seems odd
1231 2011-02-23 10:56:43 <mekel> [2/23/11 2:48:19 AM] Started [2/23/11 2:48:20 AM] ERROR: OpenCL platform ATI Stream contains no devices
1232 2011-02-23 10:56:53 <mekel> -d ?
1233 2011-02-23 10:56:57 <molecular> allright, you got the miner running at least
1234 2011-02-23 10:56:58 <Diablo-D3> because you dont have the stream sdk installed
1235 2011-02-23 10:57:05 <mekel> i do >_< wtf
1236 2011-02-23 10:57:08 <Diablo-D3> you didnt install the 11.2 that has it.
1237 2011-02-23 10:57:12 <molecular> well, it's not mining yet ;)
1238 2011-02-23 10:57:18 <mekel> QQ
1239 2011-02-23 10:57:22 <molecular> because "<Diablo-D3> because you dont have the stream sdk installed"
1240 2011-02-23 10:57:22 <mekel> i thot all 11.2's had it
1241 2011-02-23 10:57:24 <Diablo-D3> actually wait
1242 2011-02-23 10:57:28 <Diablo-D3> you DO have it installed
1243 2011-02-23 10:57:31 <Diablo-D3> it just hates you.
1244 2011-02-23 10:57:34 <mekel> wtf lol
1245 2011-02-23 10:57:40 <mekel> fml
1246 2011-02-23 10:57:40 <Diablo-D3> its not finding your video card
1247 2011-02-23 10:57:57 <sipa> did you install the icd file?
1248 2011-02-23 10:58:02 <mekel> i dnno wats that
1249 2011-02-23 10:58:10 <Diablo-D3> sipa: hes on windows
1250 2011-02-23 10:58:26 <sipa> windows doesn't have that?
1251 2011-02-23 10:58:52 <Diablo-D3> not like we do
1252 2011-02-23 10:59:01 <mekel> any ideas?
1253 2011-02-23 10:59:03 slush has joined
1254 2011-02-23 10:59:06 <Diablo-D3> it drops a file somewhere in c:\windows or some shit
1255 2011-02-23 10:59:17 <Diablo-D3> so both the driver installer and sdk installer exes handle this shit
1256 2011-02-23 10:59:23 <Diablo-D3> mekel: no idea. your shits broken somewhere.
1257 2011-02-23 10:59:35 <mekel> F man :(
1258 2011-02-23 10:59:37 <Diablo-D3> did you reboot after installing 11.2?
1259 2011-02-23 10:59:45 <mekel> hm i think so
1260 2011-02-23 11:00:14 <mekel> ya i did
1261 2011-02-23 11:00:36 <mekel> can i tell it whre my vid card is?
1262 2011-02-23 11:00:47 <mekel> lik in poclbm u hav to do -device right?
1263 2011-02-23 11:00:49 <molecular> no, Diablo-D3 should see all cards
1264 2011-02-23 11:00:57 <mekel> F
1265 2011-02-23 11:01:01 <molecular> Diablo-D3, uses all cards, too
1266 2011-02-23 11:01:22 <molecular> you have poclbm working?
1267 2011-02-23 11:01:35 <mekel> no its throwin me a incorrectly configured error
1268 2011-02-23 11:01:44 <molecular> *DiabloMiner (instead of Diablo-D3), sorry
1269 2011-02-23 11:01:57 <molecular> probably same cause: your setup is somehow fail
1270 2011-02-23 11:02:12 <molecular> like I said: install linux first ;)
1271 2011-02-23 11:02:45 <mekel> max QQ
1272 2011-02-23 11:03:00 <mekel> GPU caps cant detect my card either
1273 2011-02-23 11:03:14 <mekel> the gpu shark
1274 2011-02-23 11:03:26 <molecular> whatever that is.. maybe you should reinstall drivers or whatever you do if something doesn't work in windows
1275 2011-02-23 11:03:46 <mekel> i believ i have
1276 2011-02-23 11:04:23 <molecular> maybe check some windows ati related forums?
1277 2011-02-23 11:04:31 <molecular> get your card going first, then try mining
1278 2011-02-23 11:04:43 <mekel> its a fresh copy of windows?
1279 2011-02-23 11:04:43 BlueMatt has joined
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1281 2011-02-23 11:04:43 BlueMatt has joined
1282 2011-02-23 11:04:52 <mekel> im i missin dotnet framework or some shit
1283 2011-02-23 11:06:41 <Diablo-D3> I doubt it
1284 2011-02-23 11:06:47 <Diablo-D3> only the catalyst control panel uses it
1285 2011-02-23 11:07:01 <Diablo-D3> and it should have already triggered the install via windows bloatdate anyhow
1286 2011-02-23 11:07:12 <mekel> man
1287 2011-02-23 11:07:18 <mekel> its a new card
1288 2011-02-23 11:07:20 <mekel> i pluggd it in
1289 2011-02-23 11:07:25 <mekel> thru the cd in and installd the driver
1290 2011-02-23 11:07:42 <mekel> but i now hav updated the driver to thew newest version from their site
1291 2011-02-23 11:08:01 <mekel> then i installed the app sdk
1292 2011-02-23 11:08:15 <mekel> tried unnin poc aftr configuring the config file n stuff
1293 2011-02-23 11:08:22 <mekel> errors evr since
1294 2011-02-23 11:08:46 <mekel> device manager recognizes my card so i kno the drivers are installed
1295 2011-02-23 11:09:03 <mekel> but gpu shark isnt recognizing me.. i thot it was cuz the software was old
1296 2011-02-23 11:09:07 lfm has joined
1297 2011-02-23 11:11:50 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1298 2011-02-23 11:19:13 sethsethseth has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
1299 2011-02-23 11:29:36 <molecular> ;;bc,calc 333000
1300 2011-02-23 11:29:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 333000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 5 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes, and 32 seconds
1301 2011-02-23 11:29:41 <Diablo-D3> mekel: reinstall windwos from scratch
1302 2011-02-23 11:30:01 <mekel> i am updating
1303 2011-02-23 11:30:09 <mekel> if this fails i will reinstall a copy of windows 7
1304 2011-02-23 11:30:17 <mekel> gotta burn a disc
1305 2011-02-23 11:32:40 <molecular> mekel, linux maybe?
1306 2011-02-23 11:33:05 <mekel> its a possibility
1307 2011-02-23 11:33:11 <mekel> i feel lik it will b even more trouble tho
1308 2011-02-23 11:35:45 <molecular> ubuntu's pretty easy to install
1309 2011-02-23 11:35:56 <mekel> im not worried about installin the os
1310 2011-02-23 11:35:59 <mekel> thats ez
1311 2011-02-23 11:36:01 <TheAncientGoat> Isn't there a mining specific distro someone whipped up?
1312 2011-02-23 11:36:03 <mekel> to burn an iso to a disc
1313 2011-02-23 11:36:10 <TheAncientGoat> With everything set up etc
1314 2011-02-23 11:36:15 <mekel> o_O
1315 2011-02-23 11:36:26 <molecular> mekel, so what are you worried about?
1316 2011-02-23 11:36:34 <mekel> uhhm
1317 2011-02-23 11:36:34 <molecular> you will get better help her for linux ;)
1318 2011-02-23 11:36:45 <mekel> a bunch of command line jumbo
1319 2011-02-23 11:36:56 <mekel> and i dislike the cmd make
1320 2011-02-23 11:37:23 <TheAncientGoat> You don't need to use the command line :\
1321 2011-02-23 11:37:25 <molecular> which you have been fighting with on windows just half an hour ago ;)
1322 2011-02-23 11:37:35 <mekel> exactly
1323 2011-02-23 11:37:42 <TheAncientGoat> You don't need to use the make command either, but what's wrong with it :/
1324 2011-02-23 11:37:48 <mekel> nothing
1325 2011-02-23 11:37:52 <mekel> its just completely diff to me
1326 2011-02-23 11:37:58 <mekel> i kno a little.
1327 2011-02-23 11:38:32 <molecular> just take small steps and use google, you'll love bash before you know it ;)
1328 2011-02-23 11:38:37 <mekel> i get the basic concepts and i still consider linux a bitch
1329 2011-02-23 11:38:47 <molecular> which it is
1330 2011-02-23 11:38:51 <mekel> lol
1331 2011-02-23 11:39:11 <BlueMatt> I disagree
1332 2011-02-23 11:39:17 <BlueMatt> its easier to use than windows
1333 2011-02-23 11:39:29 <mekel> not if ur not used to it already?
1334 2011-02-23 11:39:30 <sipa> the easiest system is always the one you already know
1335 2011-02-23 11:39:32 <TheAncientGoat> But learning something new is harder :D
1336 2011-02-23 11:39:40 <mekel> ya
1337 2011-02-23 11:39:55 <BlueMatt> fair enough
1338 2011-02-23 11:40:00 <mekel> lmao
1339 2011-02-23 11:40:08 <TheAncientGoat> mekel: Rather install Arch
1340 2011-02-23 11:40:08 <sipa> but in general, i do suggest using linux too for mining
1341 2011-02-23 11:40:22 <TheAncientGoat> And then go to Ubuntu, and it will be very easy :)
1342 2011-02-23 11:40:38 <mekel> install arch
1343 2011-02-23 11:40:41 <mekel> lol
1344 2011-02-23 11:40:46 <mekel> is that a super old os?
1345 2011-02-23 11:40:54 <TheAncientGoat> No, it's a Linux distro
1346 2011-02-23 11:40:54 <mekel> pre-linux?
1347 2011-02-23 11:40:57 <mekel> o
1348 2011-02-23 11:40:58 <BlueMatt> no
1349 2011-02-23 11:40:59 <TheAncientGoat> Modern
1350 2011-02-23 11:41:08 <TheAncientGoat> Just you have to install it via command line ;)
1351 2011-02-23 11:41:10 <mekel> ubuntu is ez
1352 2011-02-23 11:41:16 <mekel> lol
1353 2011-02-23 11:41:19 <mekel> no thx
1354 2011-02-23 11:41:20 <TheAncientGoat> If I was cruel, I'd say install Gentoo
1355 2011-02-23 11:41:30 <TheAncientGoat> Where you have to compile all your software }:D
1356 2011-02-23 11:41:30 <sipa> LFS!
1357 2011-02-23 11:41:35 <mekel> iv had bootable linux cd's
1358 2011-02-23 11:41:39 <mekel> and installed fedora core a long time ago
1359 2011-02-23 11:41:46 <mekel> and hav had ubuntu on a couple pc's
1360 2011-02-23 11:41:51 <TheAncientGoat> If I was /really/ cruel, I'd say install some or other BSD (not linux) or Minix
1361 2011-02-23 11:42:11 <mekel> i kno walol
1362 2011-02-23 11:42:29 <mekel> does anyone use freebsd these days
1363 2011-02-23 11:42:49 <sipa> i know some people
1364 2011-02-23 11:42:56 <BlueMatt> some server admins prefer it
1365 2011-02-23 11:43:04 <mekel> what for
1366 2011-02-23 11:43:05 <BlueMatt> but desktop, no
1367 2011-02-23 11:43:11 <BlueMatt> ...for servers?
1368 2011-02-23 11:43:12 <mekel> ah
1369 2011-02-23 11:43:15 <mekel> lol
1370 2011-02-23 11:44:11 <sipa> funny?
1371 2011-02-23 11:44:30 <mekel> the fact that he uses unix is not funny no
1372 2011-02-23 11:44:38 <BlueMatt> I think mekel is high, well he does laugh at everything
1373 2011-02-23 11:44:51 <mekel> i was not high lik 5 hours ago
1374 2011-02-23 11:45:00 <sipa> but now you are?
1375 2011-02-23 11:45:15 <mekel> no im still not high
1376 2011-02-23 11:45:48 <mekel> mayb when this high school kid i buy marijuana from wakes up to go to school i can get high again :p
1377 2011-02-23 11:45:56 <mekel> jk.
1378 2011-02-23 11:46:10 <mekel> no but seriously he will probably b awake soon
1379 2011-02-23 11:48:40 <mekel> so iv got my 6950 rigged into a shuttle pc
1380 2011-02-23 11:48:52 <mekel> its pretty epic, the card is half the size of the pc
1381 2011-02-23 11:48:59 <mekel> and im runnin dual psu's
1382 2011-02-23 11:49:13 <mekel> one 420 watt straight to the card and 250 to the mobo and eveyrthing alse
1383 2011-02-23 11:49:15 <mekel> else*
1384 2011-02-23 11:49:47 <lfm> doesnt seem all that efficient
1385 2011-02-23 11:50:01 <mekel> i would agree
1386 2011-02-23 11:50:10 <molecular> the 420 might even be enough for board + card depending on board
1387 2011-02-23 11:50:32 <mekel> im scared it will kill the card if its not enuf
1388 2011-02-23 11:50:42 <molecular> hmm, it will more likely kill the psu
1389 2011-02-23 11:50:45 <molecular> (happened to me)
1390 2011-02-23 11:50:48 <mekel> lmao
1391 2011-02-23 11:50:49 <BlueMatt> if its a good quality 430, you should be fine
1392 2011-02-23 11:50:56 <mekel> its probably low qual
1393 2011-02-23 11:51:01 <mekel> and its 420
1394 2011-02-23 11:51:08 <mekel> i forget
1395 2011-02-23 11:51:09 <BlueMatt> sorry, 420*
1396 2011-02-23 11:51:13 <mekel> o its made by orion
1397 2011-02-23 11:51:14 <molecular> I used a low-quality 380W psu for card + board
1398 2011-02-23 11:51:25 <molecular> it only blew after I over-voltages to 1.15 and clocks > 900 Mhz
1399 2011-02-23 11:51:27 <mekel> reccomended on the site was 500
1400 2011-02-23 11:51:36 <mekel> bummer
1401 2011-02-23 11:52:01 <mekel> i feel lik a badass runnin dual psu's tho
1402 2011-02-23 11:52:03 <molecular> so you might be fine reall with the 420 only
1403 2011-02-23 11:52:04 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
1404 2011-02-23 11:52:06 <molecular> lol
1405 2011-02-23 11:52:43 <mekel> ya u know whats up lol
1406 2011-02-23 11:52:52 <molecular> you could put a second engine into your car, just for powering your stereo and feel like a badass, too
1407 2011-02-23 11:53:10 <mekel> thats wat the second battery is for
1408 2011-02-23 11:53:50 <mekel> no but seriously dual engines in a car would b pretty badass
1409 2011-02-23 11:54:01 <mekel> fuk u bitch i got two of eveyrthing
1410 2011-02-23 11:54:17 <mekel> i hav two engines, ur argument is invalid
1411 2011-02-23 11:55:09 <mekel> i should mak a demotivational poster "YO DAWG i just put an engine in YO engine..."
1412 2011-02-23 11:55:50 * molecular thinks mekel should take a nap
1413 2011-02-23 11:55:53 <molecular> :)
1414 2011-02-23 11:56:07 <mekel> i will nap in a couple when this update fails
1415 2011-02-23 11:56:48 molecular has joined
1416 2011-02-23 11:57:05 rli has joined
1417 2011-02-23 11:57:36 <molecular> can one run a -testnet bitcoind in paralle to a normal one? different user? how is it best done?
1418 2011-02-23 11:59:19 <lfm> mekel like this? http://goo.gl/jdlWr ??
1419 2011-02-23 11:59:52 <mekel> lmao!
1420 2011-02-23 11:59:56 <BlueMatt> molecular: just open it twice (once with -testnet)
1421 2011-02-23 12:00:01 <mekel> yo dawg we just put an engine in yo engines engines engine
1422 2011-02-23 12:02:16 <molecular> hmm, what about ~/.bitcoin stuff, though?
1423 2011-02-23 12:02:39 <BlueMatt> there is a separate folder ~/.bitcoin/testnet
1424 2011-02-23 12:02:46 <BlueMatt> (atleast in 0.3.20)
1425 2011-02-23 12:03:07 <molecular> ah, very nice
1426 2011-02-23 12:03:32 mekel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1427 2011-02-23 12:04:58 <lfm> mekel see in that pic, all the spectators are plugging their ears?
1428 2011-02-23 12:09:14 <molecular> hmm, it's not connecting to testnet ;|
1429 2011-02-23 12:09:24 <molecular> 'll give it more time
1430 2011-02-23 12:09:45 <lfm> it might take a while to find another node running testnet
1431 2011-02-23 12:09:59 <molecular> there's about 20 in #bitcoinTEST
1432 2011-02-23 12:10:10 <molecular> 12
1433 2011-02-23 12:12:07 bitcoiner has joined
1434 2011-02-23 12:14:18 <molecular> ;;bc,calc 333000
1435 2011-02-23 12:14:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 333000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 5 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes, and 32 seconds
1436 2011-02-23 12:14:23 <molecular> ;;bc,calc 666000
1437 2011-02-23 12:14:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 666000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 days, 17 hours, 18 minutes, and 46 seconds
1438 2011-02-23 12:15:32 <molecular> ;;bc,prob 333000 1d
1439 2011-02-23 12:15:33 <gribble> 0.167840501558
1440 2011-02-23 12:16:15 <molecular> ;;bc,prob 333000 1w
1441 2011-02-23 12:16:15 <molecular> ;;bc,prob 333000 7d
1442 2011-02-23 12:16:16 <gribble> 0.723658555947
1443 2011-02-23 12:16:17 <gribble> 0.723658555947
1444 2011-02-23 12:17:12 bitcoinballin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1445 2011-02-23 12:23:24 hendi has joined
1446 2011-02-23 12:26:45 <molecular> I think "bitcoin -testnet -server" uses ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf by accident
1447 2011-02-23 12:26:54 <molecular> instead of ~/.bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf
1448 2011-02-23 12:32:08 <BlueMatt> I dont think its supposed to
1449 2011-02-23 12:32:18 <BlueMatt> it just stores its wallet and blocks in ~/.bitcoin/testnet
1450 2011-02-23 12:32:18 <molecular> no, even tells you to put it in testnet folder
1451 2011-02-23 12:32:26 <molecular> make an issue on github
1452 2011-02-23 12:32:28 <BlueMatt> oh, well then file a bug
1453 2011-02-23 12:32:28 <molecular> *made
1454 2011-02-23 12:32:33 <molecular> did ;)
1455 2011-02-23 12:32:47 <molecular> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/#issue/78
1456 2011-02-23 12:33:24 <lfm> can you fix it with -configdir?
1457 2011-02-23 12:33:39 <BlueMatt> probably not
1458 2011-02-23 12:33:49 <BlueMatt> it would store the wallet in .bitcoin/testnet/testnet
1459 2011-02-23 12:34:02 <lfm> is it sensitive to the order of the switches?
1460 2011-02-23 12:34:08 <molecular> ~/bitcoin-0.3.20/bin/32/bitcoin -testnet -server -configdir=~/.bitcoin/testnet
1461 2011-02-23 12:34:08 <molecular> Warning: To use the "-server" option, you must set rpcpassword=<password>
1462 2011-02-23 12:34:08 <molecular> in the configuration file: /home/bitcoin_test/.bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf
1463 2011-02-23 12:34:08 <molecular> If the file does not exist, create it with owner-readable-only file permissions.
1464 2011-02-23 12:34:19 <molecular> nope, -configdir doesn't seem to help either
1465 2011-02-23 12:34:53 <lfm> is it sensitive to the order of the switches?
1466 2011-02-23 12:35:01 <BlueMatt> for what?
1467 2011-02-23 12:35:14 <lfm> try -server -testnet instead
1468 2011-02-23 12:35:21 <BlueMatt> no its not
1469 2011-02-23 12:35:38 <lfm> nasty
1470 2011-02-23 12:35:44 <molecular> "~/bitcoin-0.3.20/bin/32/bitcoin -testnet -server -conf=~/.
1471 2011-02-23 12:35:44 <molecular> bitcoin/testnet/bitcoin.conf" doesn't work either
1472 2011-02-23 12:36:10 <molecular> -server -testnet doesn't help either
1473 2011-02-23 12:36:53 <lfm> someone messed up
1474 2011-02-23 12:37:43 <BlueMatt> no application should be sensitive to order of parameters
1475 2011-02-23 12:37:59 <BlueMatt> Ive cleard a harddrive by using find -delete -name instead of find -name -delete
1476 2011-02-23 12:38:01 <molecular> it's not (at least I couldn't confirm that)
1477 2011-02-23 12:38:38 <lfm> BlueMatt: well done!
1478 2011-02-23 12:38:41 <bd_> BlueMatt: ... right, I've learned something important about find today.
1479 2011-02-23 12:38:53 <BlueMatt> atleast I had a backup
1480 2011-02-23 12:39:07 <bd_> I mean, apart from "Always run it with -print first"
1481 2011-02-23 12:40:15 knotwork has joined
1482 2011-02-23 13:08:47 benkant has quit (Quit: benkant)
1483 2011-02-23 13:13:59 kermit has joined
1484 2011-02-23 13:15:14 Jeroenz0r__ is now known as Jeroenz0r
1485 2011-02-23 13:20:02 grondilu has joined
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1490 2011-02-23 13:25:17 satamusic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1491 2011-02-23 13:28:20 <UukGoblin> sipa, your graphs are broken :-[
1492 2011-02-23 13:28:32 <echelon> no u
1493 2011-02-23 13:28:50 <sipa> ?
1494 2011-02-23 13:28:50 sabalaba has joined
1495 2011-02-23 13:29:01 <UukGoblin> sipa, http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png
1496 2011-02-23 13:29:26 <sipa> what's broken about it?
1497 2011-02-23 13:29:32 <UukGoblin> timeouts
1498 2011-02-23 13:29:45 <sipa> ?
1499 2011-02-23 13:29:54 <sipa> you get a server error?
1500 2011-02-23 13:30:02 <echelon> i didn't get any errors
1501 2011-02-23 13:30:04 <UukGoblin> I get timeouts while connecting to bitcoin.sipa.be port 80
1502 2011-02-23 13:30:06 <echelon> loaded just fine for me
1503 2011-02-23 13:30:10 <UukGoblin> hm.
1504 2011-02-23 13:30:16 <lfm> graph looks fine here too
1505 2011-02-23 13:30:22 <UukGoblin> ok...
1506 2011-02-23 13:30:30 <UukGoblin> I tried from home box and it worked... weird
1507 2011-02-23 13:30:34 <echelon> try a different dns?
1508 2011-02-23 13:30:49 <UukGoblin> echelon, DNS resolves fine
1509 2011-02-23 13:30:53 <sipa> yeah
1510 2011-02-23 13:31:08 <sipa> seems like the server didn't answer or you have some serious packet loss
1511 2011-02-23 13:31:10 <sipa> i suspect the first :)
1512 2011-02-23 13:32:39 <luke-jr> bd_: -print is default
1513 2011-02-23 13:32:42 akem has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1514 2011-02-23 13:33:14 <UukGoblin> sipa, kinda funny as I'm coming from one of the biggest UK ISPs' office lan ;-] I suspect networks here broke something ;-]
1515 2011-02-23 13:33:18 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-251-230-92.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
1516 2011-02-23 13:33:18 akem has joined
1517 2011-02-23 13:33:19 akem has quit (Changing host)
1518 2011-02-23 13:33:19 akem has joined
1519 2011-02-23 13:33:43 <sipa> anyway, let me know if it happens again
1520 2011-02-23 13:33:55 <sipa> or you still have the problem?
1521 2011-02-23 13:33:58 <UukGoblin> I do
1522 2011-02-23 13:34:01 <UukGoblin> but it looks local
1523 2011-02-23 13:34:07 <sipa> maybe some firewall?
1524 2011-02-23 13:34:12 <UukGoblin> I poked a friend in networks dept
1525 2011-02-23 13:34:17 <UukGoblin> might be indeed
1526 2011-02-23 13:34:23 <lfm> some router crashed or something on your end
1527 2011-02-23 13:34:32 <UukGoblin> we have websense, but its default behaviour is to display a page saying "your request was blocked"
1528 2011-02-23 13:34:43 <echelon> maybe his company doesn't like belgians
1529 2011-02-23 13:35:13 <UukGoblin> belgians should be fine
1530 2011-02-23 13:35:17 <UukGoblin> poles, however... ;-]
1531 2011-02-23 13:39:03 bk128-Droid has joined
1532 2011-02-23 13:42:08 <molecular> can someone send me some money on testnet? mm85aegRu1SynaWnVFyycS8c5fq8KsrmEi
1533 2011-02-23 13:42:24 <xelister> molecular: I had 30,000 test btc
1534 2011-02-23 13:42:33 <xelister> and then this thief took my testnet moneyz :<
1535 2011-02-23 13:42:37 <xelister> :P
1536 2011-02-23 13:42:55 <molecular> 8-)
1537 2011-02-23 13:42:59 <lfm> is it 0.3.20 or 0.3.19 testnet?
1538 2011-02-23 13:43:03 <molecular> 0.3.20
1539 2011-02-23 13:43:12 <tcatm> molecular: sent
1540 2011-02-23 13:43:19 <BlueMatt> http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/TEST/
1541 2011-02-23 13:43:26 <molecular> thx
1542 2011-02-23 13:43:34 sabalaba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1543 2011-02-23 13:44:01 <molecular> duh, had a block generated in testnet... it just disappeared
1544 2011-02-23 13:44:14 <lfm> collision?
1545 2011-02-23 13:44:34 <molecular> hmmm
1546 2011-02-23 13:45:03 <molecular> how long after miner gets an accepted hit until the block should show up in gui?
1547 2011-02-23 13:45:30 <JFK911> should be within a block
1548 2011-02-23 13:45:35 <lfm> shows up the next block I think as unconformed
1549 2011-02-23 13:45:42 <molecular> oh, nevermind
1550 2011-02-23 13:45:48 <molecular> I wasnt even done loading blockchain
1551 2011-02-23 13:45:53 <JFK911> ha
1552 2011-02-23 13:45:56 <molecular> how long is testnet block chain?
1553 2011-02-23 13:46:02 <JFK911> did you switch from the live net
1554 2011-02-23 13:46:13 <molecular> switch? used "-testnet"
1555 2011-02-23 13:46:21 <molecular> with a different unix user
1556 2011-02-23 13:46:26 <lfm> 28550
1557 2011-02-23 13:46:37 <molecular> oh, I'm only at 6700
1558 2011-02-23 13:46:41 <lfm> Bookmarks Toolbar
1559 2011-02-23 13:46:41 <lfm> Most Visited
1560 2011-02-23 13:46:41 <lfm> http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/
1561 2011-02-23 13:46:41 <lfm> http://apps.facebook.com/onthefarm/index.php?ref=bookmarks
1562 2011-02-23 13:46:41 <lfm> http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#confirm_102452128776_0
1563 2011-02-23 13:46:41 <lfm> http://slashdot.org/
1564 2011-02-23 13:46:42 <lfm> http://www.facebook.com/home.php
1565 2011-02-23 13:46:42 <lfm> http://apps.facebook.com/onthefarm/index.php?&ref=rewardPage
1566 2011-02-23 13:46:43 <lfm> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?action=unreadreplies
1567 2011-02-23 13:46:43 <lfm> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?action=unreadreplies
1568 2011-02-23 13:46:44 <lfm> http://apps.facebook.com/onthefarm/bookmark.php?ref=bookmarks&count=0
1569 2011-02-23 13:46:44 <lfm> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?board=6.0
1570 2011-02-23 13:46:45 <lfm> http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/
1571 2011-02-23 13:46:45 <lfm> https://www.google.com/
1572 2011-02-23 13:46:46 <lfm> http://slashdot.org/
1573 2011-02-23 13:46:46 <lfm> http://boingboing.net/
1574 2011-02-23 13:46:54 <molecular> what the...
1575 2011-02-23 13:46:55 <lfm> f***
1576 2011-02-23 13:46:56 <JFK911> haha he reads slashdot
1577 2011-02-23 13:46:59 <lfm> sorry
1578 2011-02-23 13:47:01 <tcatm> molecular: 6775
1579 2011-02-23 13:47:09 <JFK911> lol facebook link
1580 2011-02-23 13:47:16 <molecular> tcatm, thanks
1581 2011-02-23 13:47:23 <lfm> and farmville I know
1582 2011-02-23 13:47:37 <JFK911> lfm: middle button got you?
1583 2011-02-23 13:47:55 <lfm> ya coppied the wrong thing
1584 2011-02-23 13:47:57 <molecular> for some reason blockchain loading happens in chunks, then pause, load some again and so on... prbably network connectivity?
1585 2011-02-23 13:48:14 <JFK911> thats how it goes, molecular
1586 2011-02-23 13:48:23 <molecular> tcatm, received money, how generous, now on real net ;)
1587 2011-02-23 13:48:29 <lfm> molecular I was trying to give you this link: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
1588 2011-02-23 13:48:34 <JFK911> just find some zen for a few minutes
1589 2011-02-23 13:48:43 <molecular> lfm, thanks, good to know
1590 2011-02-23 13:49:43 <tcatm> molecular: sure, if I had as many bitcoins as I have testcoins ;)
1591 2011-02-23 13:50:21 <edcba> what's that confirm id...
1592 2011-02-23 13:50:22 * xelister puts his enhanced dong in lfm..... 's mailbox
1593 2011-02-23 13:51:07 <edcba> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=102452128776&btnG=Search&hl=en&sa=2
1594 2011-02-23 13:51:10 <edcba> farmville
1595 2011-02-23 13:52:03 <molecular> the testnet is much more fun than real net (logs on to test.mtgox.com)
1596 2011-02-23 13:52:50 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1597 2011-02-23 13:53:14 <lfm> edcba: stupid facebook game
1598 2011-02-23 13:59:55 <edcba> i know it of course
1599 2011-02-23 14:00:00 <molecular> hmm, my testnet is stuck at 6780.. is it verifying blocks or something?
1600 2011-02-23 14:00:45 <tcatm> run it with -addnode=85.116.192.135
1601 2011-02-23 14:00:54 <toad_> here's a thought: 1) bitcoin isn't anonymous without mixing services, but mixing services would be pretty easy to implement, operate and trust; 2) all the regulator has to do to prevent any political/tax/laundering problems emerging from bitcoin is to require that exchangers refuse to accept coins that have been through mixing services.
1602 2011-02-23 14:01:55 <molecular> <tcatm> molecular: 6775, but http://blockexplorer.com/testnet: 28550
1603 2011-02-23 14:01:56 sneak has joined
1604 2011-02-23 14:02:14 <tcatm> blockexplorer is still using the old testnet
1605 2011-02-23 14:02:17 <molecular> ahaaa
1606 2011-02-23 14:02:23 sneak is now known as Guest11532
1607 2011-02-23 14:02:27 <molecular> so my client is _not_ stuck at 6780, everyone's is
1608 2011-02-23 14:02:37 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
1609 2011-02-23 14:03:50 skeledrew has joined
1610 2011-02-23 14:05:14 <xelister> molecular: 6780?
1611 2011-02-23 14:05:19 <xelister> ah testnet
1612 2011-02-23 14:05:39 <molecular> 6785 now
1613 2011-02-23 14:05:52 <molecular> yeah, test. hey xelister, btw
1614 2011-02-23 14:13:14 <sipa> is there any easy way to inspect real blocks and transactions?
1615 2011-02-23 14:13:30 <sipa> at the byte level i mean, so without the parsing that eg. BBE's raw transaction view gives
1616 2011-02-23 14:17:10 <lfm> hexdump ~/.bitcoin/blk0001.dat
1617 2011-02-23 14:17:48 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1618 2011-02-23 14:22:38 <molecular> who is running blockexplorer.com?
1619 2011-02-23 14:23:39 <BlueMatt> theymos
1620 2011-02-23 14:23:47 andrew12 has joined
1621 2011-02-23 14:23:51 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|i hate this class
1622 2011-02-23 14:24:02 <BlueMatt> hence you are on irc
1623 2011-02-23 14:24:05 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|yes
1624 2011-02-23 14:24:06 <molecular> anyone know if theymos uses a db to store the transactions/blocks/... ?
1625 2011-02-23 14:24:16 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|molecular: what else would he use? ;)
1626 2011-02-23 14:24:21 <molecular> if so... can I have a dump or tool that creates it?
1627 2011-02-23 14:24:25 <KBme> andrew12: files
1628 2011-02-23 14:24:28 <KBme> er
1629 2011-02-23 14:24:29 <KBme> andrew12|school:
1630 2011-02-23 14:24:31 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|KBme: that's still a database
1631 2011-02-23 14:24:35 <KBme> no, it isn't
1632 2011-02-23 14:24:39 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|yes it is
1633 2011-02-23 14:24:43 <KBme> ...
1634 2011-02-23 14:24:46 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|a file that contains data is a database
1635 2011-02-23 14:24:50 <KBme> lol
1636 2011-02-23 14:25:01 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|what?
1637 2011-02-23 14:25:16 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|...anyways
1638 2011-02-23 14:25:58 RichardG has joined
1639 2011-02-23 14:26:00 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|molecular: you could probably just make a script to index the database, so you can get a hash from a block number, and a block number from a tx
1640 2011-02-23 14:26:36 <KBme> andrew12|school: a file that contains data in an ntfs filesystem is a database
1641 2011-02-23 14:26:38 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|and then call getblockbycount or something when you know the hash
1642 2011-02-23 14:26:40 <KBme> on unix it's just a file
1643 2011-02-23 14:26:51 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1644 2011-02-23 14:27:01 <KBme> you can store a database in a file, that doesn't mean every file is a database
1645 2011-02-23 14:27:17 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|KBme: where did I say that every file is a database?
1646 2011-02-23 14:27:36 <KBme> "a file that contains data is a database"
1647 2011-02-23 14:27:48 <KBme> every file contains data, even if it's just EOF
1648 2011-02-23 14:27:55 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|heh
1649 2011-02-23 14:28:32 molecular has quit (zapp!~molecular@e176115247.adsl.alicedsl.de|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1650 2011-02-23 14:28:40 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1651 2011-02-23 14:28:50 molecular has joined
1652 2011-02-23 14:29:03 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|if blockexplorer stores the block data in a file, then that file contains a database.
1653 2011-02-23 14:29:26 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|not sure why we're arguing about this...
1654 2011-02-23 14:30:42 <KBme> yeah, you're right
1655 2011-02-23 14:30:49 <KBme> it's not worth the argument
1656 2011-02-23 14:31:02 <KBme> and i guess if you say it like that it is true :)
1657 2011-02-23 14:31:33 <KBme> andrew12|school: i bet it's still moar interestinglier than your class
1658 2011-02-23 14:31:36 <KBme> ;)
1659 2011-02-23 14:31:42 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|of course it is
1660 2011-02-23 14:31:50 <lfm> andrew12 a database consists of DATA AND INDEXES
1661 2011-02-23 14:31:59 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|lfm: </argument>
1662 2011-02-23 14:32:04 <KBme> :D
1663 2011-02-23 14:32:29 <bd_> what, no journal? :(
1664 2011-02-23 14:32:41 <molecular> I was just looking for a way to get block/transaction data into a mysql db, not trying to argue ;)
1665 2011-02-23 14:33:07 <KBme> riiiiight, like you didn't see this comming! ;P
1666 2011-02-23 14:33:29 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|molecular: when i get home, i'll write something that uses the monitorreceived patch and the getblockbycount patch to index the database, and it will have getblock and gettransaction (that will work for any tx)
1667 2011-02-23 14:33:30 <lfm> molecular: so whats the problem, just do it
1668 2011-02-23 14:33:42 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|provided i remember
1669 2011-02-23 14:34:10 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|;;later tell andrew12 write that thingy with monitorreceived and getblockbycount!
1670 2011-02-23 14:34:11 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1671 2011-02-23 14:34:58 <KBme> âº
1672 2011-02-23 14:35:38 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|hm
1673 2011-02-23 14:35:55 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|would it be easier if it was a json rpc server or if it was just an http request?
1674 2011-02-23 14:36:08 <sgornick> molecular: I didn't scroll back re: trx feed for storing to an rdbms looks like http://twitter.com/bitcoinmonitor (from http://bitcoinmonitor.com ) has that, perhaps?
1675 2011-02-23 14:36:19 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|http://server/getblockbycount/number
1676 2011-02-23 14:36:24 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|http://server/getblockbyhash/hash
1677 2011-02-23 14:36:36 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|http://server/gettransaction/hash
1678 2011-02-23 14:37:15 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|or json rpc..
1679 2011-02-23 14:37:39 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|i dunno. i'll play with this later. :P
1680 2011-02-23 14:37:45 <molecular> how would reply be formatted on http?
1681 2011-02-23 14:37:52 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|molecular: json
1682 2011-02-23 14:38:01 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|molecular: because that's what bitcoind gives me
1683 2011-02-23 14:38:16 <molecular> whats the big difference rpc/http ?
1684 2011-02-23 14:38:44 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|molecular: http's easier, json rpc requires doing a post request, which isn't necessarily easy
1685 2011-02-23 14:39:28 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|(json rpc is over http, which makes it even more confusing)
1686 2011-02-23 14:40:11 molecular has joined
1687 2011-02-23 14:41:05 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|though json-rpc isn't *supposed* to be over http
1688 2011-02-23 14:41:38 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|according to its spec
1689 2011-02-23 14:42:07 <Blitzboom> whatâs the difference between 0.3.20 and 0.3.20.01?
1690 2011-02-23 14:42:09 <Blitzboom> iâm confused now
1691 2011-02-23 14:46:48 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|.01
1692 2011-02-23 14:47:45 <BlueMatt> its just a new build, afaik its still published as 0.3.20 on sf
1693 2011-02-23 14:49:59 gavinandresen has joined
1694 2011-02-23 14:50:01 mmarker has joined
1695 2011-02-23 14:52:23 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|bbl
1696 2011-02-23 14:52:49 lfm has quit (Quit: bye)
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1699 2011-02-23 14:53:40 TheKid has joined
1700 2011-02-23 14:57:26 andrew12 has quit (school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1701 2011-02-23 15:02:24 <slush> tcatm: hi
1702 2011-02-23 15:02:38 <slush> tcatm: under which licence is your python bitcoin client?
1703 2011-02-23 15:02:47 <slush> tcatm: I found source on pastebin
1704 2011-02-23 15:04:08 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/tcatm/oclminer that one?
1705 2011-02-23 15:04:53 * mmarker kicks gcc in the face.
1706 2011-02-23 15:05:07 <Sthebig> gcc feels nothing, as it is just a compiler.
1707 2011-02-23 15:05:26 <slush> BlueMatt: no, it's lightweight python node
1708 2011-02-23 15:05:27 <mmarker> Then where are its developers :D
1709 2011-02-23 15:05:31 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1710 2011-02-23 15:06:12 <mmarker> I'm going to throw LLVM at this problem. Else I'm going to have to write this by hand. Which will not be fun. At all.
1711 2011-02-23 15:06:49 <BlueMatt> mmarker: what are you trying to compile
1712 2011-02-23 15:08:38 <mmarker> My ARM neon code. gcc seems to love to store a bunch of variables all over the place, for no good reason
1713 2011-02-23 15:08:59 <mmarker> Which is severely hamstringing my code. I'm about 50khash slower now than my generic C code
1714 2011-02-23 15:09:26 <BlueMatt> why not just program in assembly?
1715 2011-02-23 15:09:45 <mmarker> It's tedious :D
1716 2011-02-23 15:10:03 <JFK911> use a real compiler
1717 2011-02-23 15:10:06 <mmarker> BlueMatt: I've used the intrinsics to do the assembly, but for some reason, gcc is botching the register assignments
1718 2011-02-23 15:10:12 <JFK911> gcc seems to make garbage for arm
1719 2011-02-23 15:10:43 <mmarker> Can't get my hands on ARM's compiler, which is apparently really nice
1720 2011-02-23 15:10:51 <JFK911> it's on rutracker
1721 2011-02-23 15:10:53 <BlueMatt> to thepiratebay
1722 2011-02-23 15:11:14 <mmarker> Bluematt: Only found old crusty versions there
1723 2011-02-23 15:11:19 <mmarker> now JFK may have an idea.
1724 2011-02-23 15:11:21 <BlueMatt> dam
1725 2011-02-23 15:11:48 devon_hillard has joined
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1727 2011-02-23 15:11:48 devon_hillard has joined
1728 2011-02-23 15:14:30 <mmarker> Grr, windows
1729 2011-02-23 15:14:37 <mmarker> which doesn't help me remotely
1730 2011-02-23 15:14:39 <Diablo-D3> ''The Middle East is obviously an issue that has plagued the region for centuries.'' -- Obama
1731 2011-02-23 15:14:53 <Diablo-D3> I completely agree with him 100%.
1732 2011-02-23 15:15:50 <Netsniper> a geographical designation is a substantive political issue?
1733 2011-02-23 15:16:06 <Diablo-D3> Netsniper: no, the fact _it exists_ is a political issue.
1734 2011-02-23 15:16:56 <BlueMatt> NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST
1735 2011-02-23 15:17:03 <BlueMatt> we do, after all, need another parking lot
1736 2011-02-23 15:18:13 <Netsniper> not being a huge fan of trotsky, i see no reason to institute revolution or remedy of any sort in "The Middle East"
1737 2011-02-23 15:18:23 soultcer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1738 2011-02-23 15:18:25 <Diablo-D3> Netsniper: dont worry
1739 2011-02-23 15:18:34 <Diablo-D3> the democracy tour is making its stops over there
1740 2011-02-23 15:19:00 <mmarker> Cant do that Blue, that burns the oil.
1741 2011-02-23 15:19:01 <Netsniper> and what a great portfolio it has amassed
1742 2011-02-23 15:19:26 <mmarker> We need more puppets. It works well!
1743 2011-02-23 15:19:47 <BlueMatt> we should just kill all the people there, and run it via large companies
1744 2011-02-23 15:20:05 <Netsniper> killing is so dreadful
1745 2011-02-23 15:20:29 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: erm
1746 2011-02-23 15:20:36 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: thats what the Republicans _have been doing_
1747 2011-02-23 15:20:40 <BlueMatt> obviously slightly joking
1748 2011-02-23 15:20:45 soultcer has joined
1749 2011-02-23 15:21:00 sabalaba has joined
1750 2011-02-23 15:21:02 <Diablo-D3> Egypts leader, and Tunsia's leader, and Libya's leader
1751 2011-02-23 15:21:06 <Diablo-D3> all pawns of big business
1752 2011-02-23 15:21:29 <Diablo-D3> they kill anyone who promotes democracy, because democracy means outside interests cant rape the country's resources
1753 2011-02-23 15:21:33 <Diablo-D3> Ghadaffi is a fucking moron
1754 2011-02-23 15:21:36 <Diablo-D3> so is his son
1755 2011-02-23 15:21:37 <Netsniper> perhaps we can entangle them within a system which will allow them a meager existance and a limited number of options and call it "better than what they had before" or, more politically correctly "democracy"
1756 2011-02-23 15:21:46 <Diablo-D3> his son said that all the compniaes will leave Libya, and what will the people do?!
1757 2011-02-23 15:21:55 <Diablo-D3> the people will _throw_ the companies out and run the shit themselves.
1758 2011-02-23 15:22:07 <Diablo-D3> that means they will profit, not some fucking rich douchebags
1759 2011-02-23 15:22:33 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1760 2011-02-23 15:23:11 <Netsniper> quite timely in that i made a blog post about this earlier today http://divisivedispatch.blogspot.com/
1761 2011-02-23 15:30:05 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1762 2011-02-23 15:32:34 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1763 2011-02-23 15:37:29 sgornick has joined
1764 2011-02-23 15:44:39 <mmarker> Note to self. x86 compilers do not compile for arm
1765 2011-02-23 15:44:55 <BlueMatt> really?
1766 2011-02-23 15:45:02 <Diablo-D3> no shit
1767 2011-02-23 15:45:36 <mmarker> Yea, I just love some scripts that just make this hidden assumption that "You defined CC, nonono, you REALLY meant to use gcc"
1768 2011-02-23 15:45:59 <KBme> cross-compilation with gnu is a pita
1769 2011-02-23 15:46:17 <mmarker> It's gotten better
1770 2011-02-23 15:46:32 <KBme> no, it hasn't
1771 2011-02-23 15:46:36 <mmarker> I remeber when it sucked so bad, I was using a Netwinder to compile mozilla to get it working on ARM
1772 2011-02-23 15:46:37 <Diablo-D3> yes it has!
1773 2011-02-23 15:46:42 <KBme> i did a little bit of proting to the freerunner
1774 2011-02-23 15:46:42 <mmarker> Trust me, IT HAS
1775 2011-02-23 15:46:43 <Diablo-D3> look, its going for a walk
1776 2011-02-23 15:46:52 <KBme> and it's just impossible
1777 2011-02-23 15:47:03 <Diablo-D3> *thud* briiiiing out your deaaaaaaddd
1778 2011-02-23 15:47:05 <mmarker> Freerunner? That's recent stuff. You kids have it easy.
1779 2011-02-23 15:47:16 <KBme> lol
1780 2011-02-23 15:47:18 <KBme> "easy"
1781 2011-02-23 15:47:34 <KBme> try porting an app that has borken autohell scripts
1782 2011-02-23 15:47:39 <KBme> funfunfun
1783 2011-02-23 15:47:41 <mmarker> There was a time you had to know the right people to get the secret patches to make sure your gcc didn't putput crap
1784 2011-02-23 15:48:26 <KBme> autohell made things *worse*!
1785 2011-02-23 15:48:59 <KBme> it's not really compilation itself that sucks
1786 2011-02-23 15:49:07 <KBme> it's autoshit, configure etc.
1787 2011-02-23 15:49:19 <mmarker> See, that's easy compared to the old days
1788 2011-02-23 15:49:34 <KBme> heh
1789 2011-02-23 15:49:50 <mmarker> when you weren't sure gcc even spit out the right machine code. Debugging the XPCOM stuff in Mozilla was a lesson in "how to subject yourself to pain"
1790 2011-02-23 15:50:15 <mmarker> And don't get me started on whomever thought it was a good idea for a LE machine to store IEEE floats big-endian
1791 2011-02-23 15:50:42 <edcba> :)
1792 2011-02-23 15:50:45 slush has joined
1793 2011-02-23 15:51:02 <mmarker> That caused the JS engine in Mozilla to go all kinds of "WTF"
1794 2011-02-23 15:52:23 <slush> ;;any tcatm
1795 2011-02-23 15:52:24 <gribble> tcatm was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 hour, 50 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <tcatm> blockexplorer is still using the old testnet
1796 2011-02-23 15:52:34 <slush> tcatm: oh I see, it is public domain
1797 2011-02-23 15:55:19 bk128 has joined
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1799 2011-02-23 15:59:41 Ocaasi has joined
1800 2011-02-23 16:01:05 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
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1807 2011-02-23 16:09:00 <ebel> Help settle a bet, can anyone give a examples of people known to have a lot of bitcoins? i.e. so-and-so has 1,000 BTC, or 100,000 BTC
1808 2011-02-23 16:09:56 <ebel> I'm less interested in who has the BTC, I'm just curious if anyone has 1,000,000 BTC (or 100,000 or whatever)
1809 2011-02-23 16:10:41 <UukGoblin> heh
1810 2011-02-23 16:10:48 <UukGoblin> satoshi is rumoured to have 1M
1811 2011-02-23 16:11:09 <UukGoblin> but he's rumoured to pretty much everything
1812 2011-02-23 16:11:47 <ebel> :)
1813 2011-02-23 16:11:56 <ebel> Anything a bit more solid than rumours?
1814 2011-02-23 16:12:53 <BlueMatt> satoshi is only a rumor period
1815 2011-02-23 16:13:02 <sipa> there is actually no way to know
1816 2011-02-23 16:13:05 <ebel> i.e. does anyone have 1% of BTC. IIRC there's about 4,000,000 BTC mined now (right?)
1817 2011-02-23 16:13:25 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1818 2011-02-23 16:13:26 <gribble> 109958
1819 2011-02-23 16:13:31 <ebel> So has anyone admitted to having 40,000 BTC?
1820 2011-02-23 16:13:44 <sipa> 5497950 BTC mined so fa
1821 2011-02-23 16:13:45 <sipa> far
1822 2011-02-23 16:13:49 <edcba> yes in forum i think
1823 2011-02-23 16:14:03 <sipa> someone has once paid 10000 BTC for a pizza
1824 2011-02-23 16:14:18 <gasteve> geez
1825 2011-02-23 16:14:20 <sipa> that's probably more than enough to assume that at that point he had more than 40000 :)
1826 2011-02-23 16:16:01 LtBrenton_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1827 2011-02-23 16:16:37 <ebel> good point
1828 2011-02-23 16:18:40 <ebel> And how many bitcoins can there ever be, again?
1829 2011-02-23 16:19:18 <Blitzboom> 21 million
1830 2011-02-23 16:19:35 <Blitzboom> by 2013, 10.5 million should be mined
1831 2011-02-23 16:19:54 <Blitzboom> 2017, 75% etc. etc.
1832 2011-02-23 16:20:01 <bk128> ebel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
1833 2011-02-23 16:20:45 <Blitzboom> weâre lucky to be at the very beginning
1834 2011-02-23 16:20:59 satamusic has joined
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1837 2011-02-23 16:22:16 <nanotube> ebel: if you explore the block chain, you'll see several addresses with >100k btc on them.
1838 2011-02-23 16:22:23 <bk128> luckier if you started 5 months ago :)
1839 2011-02-23 16:22:46 <bk128> http://blockexplorer.com/
1840 2011-02-23 16:25:39 rli has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1841 2011-02-23 16:25:51 <mmarker> Always contemplated building a coinwalker
1842 2011-02-23 16:25:58 <mmarker> to trace a coins path through the blocks
1843 2011-02-23 16:26:19 <mmarker> Could never assign coins to a single person, of course
1844 2011-02-23 16:26:41 LtBrenton has joined
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1846 2011-02-23 16:29:02 TheKid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1847 2011-02-23 16:29:17 <mmarker> Hmm. One academic question
1848 2011-02-23 16:29:17 <Ocaasi> So, i understand the hardcoded limitations on bitcoin creation, at least partly. And how there can't be inflation. But what's to stop someone or a group of people from modifying the source-code?
1849 2011-02-23 16:29:25 <Ocaasi> go ahead mmarker
1850 2011-02-23 16:29:26 <Ocaasi> sorry
1851 2011-02-23 16:29:41 <bd_> Ocaasi: There can be bitcoin inflation, why shouldn't there be?
1852 2011-02-23 16:29:53 <bd_> Take some bitcoins off the market - deflation! Return them later - inflation!
1853 2011-02-23 16:29:57 <Ocaasi> Well, I mean inflation beyond what is hard-coded
1854 2011-02-23 16:30:09 <Ocaasi> That would be money-flow inflation not money base inflation
1855 2011-02-23 16:30:21 <Ocaasi> it's the difference between M0/M1 and M2/M3
1856 2011-02-23 16:30:30 <mmarker> Looking at Sha-2 the Mu function (ab) xor (BC) xor (AC)
1857 2011-02-23 16:30:32 <bd_> Ocaasi: anyway, all the bitcoin nodes cross-check each other. You can modify your client to accept illegal transactions, no problem. However, all other nodes will reject these transactions, so all you're doing is fooling yourself
1858 2011-02-23 16:30:33 <Ocaasi> These terms are used differently by some economists
1859 2011-02-23 16:31:17 <mmarker> Trying to figure out how itvgot converted to (ab) | c(a|b)
1860 2011-02-23 16:31:18 `Jaka has joined
1861 2011-02-23 16:31:19 <Ocaasi> Ok, so even if a rich or popular group of people decided to accept eachother's inflated bit-coins, it would be 'contained'
1862 2011-02-23 16:31:41 <mmarker> The algebra is kicking my ass
1863 2011-02-23 16:31:42 <ArtForz> mmarker: simple
1864 2011-02-23 16:31:54 <ArtForz> those xors can be ors as well, doesnt matter
1865 2011-02-23 16:32:01 <ArtForz> it's called Maj() for a reason
1866 2011-02-23 16:32:03 <bd_> Ocaasi: pretty much yes. They'd have fun pretending to pass bitcoins around, but nobody else will believe them
1867 2011-02-23 16:32:17 <mmarker> ArtForz: there's a simplification I'm missing somewhere
1868 2011-02-23 16:32:20 <ArtForz> the output is 1 if the MAJority of inputs is 1
1869 2011-02-23 16:32:48 satamusic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1870 2011-02-23 16:33:23 <ArtForz> so (A & (B | C)) | (B & C) is pretty intuitive
1871 2011-02-23 16:33:34 <Ocaasi> I ask, bd, because the downfall of virtually every well-intended currency is ultimately inflation through legal or extralegal means
1872 2011-02-23 16:33:39 TheKid has joined
1873 2011-02-23 16:33:48 <Ocaasi> so, that's the first thing to question here. how can it be broken...
1874 2011-02-23 16:34:08 Mango-chan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1875 2011-02-23 16:34:08 <ArtForz> spell it out and it makes perfect sense
1876 2011-02-23 16:34:16 <bd_> Ocaasi: Compromise of over half of the processing power of the bitcoin network would allow for eventual double-spending
1877 2011-02-23 16:35:13 <mmarker> Yea. I think im just having a brainfart is really the problem
1878 2011-02-23 16:35:28 TheKid has quit (Changing host)
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1880 2011-02-23 16:35:33 <ArtForz> btw, you can also reform it to (A & (B|C)) | (~A & (B&C))
1881 2011-02-23 16:36:02 <ArtForz> which is pretty useful if you have a opcode doing (A & B) | (~A & C) ... ;)
1882 2011-02-23 16:36:04 <mmarker> That would be a win
1883 2011-02-23 16:36:26 <mmarker> Yup. I got a decent performance boost using said opcode.
1884 2011-02-23 16:36:55 <ArtForz> = you only need 3 instead of 4 opcodes, and have a less deep dependency chain
1885 2011-02-23 16:37:05 rli has joined
1886 2011-02-23 16:37:13 <Ocaasi> Thanks bd. So as a distributed system, it's ultimately only as good as its members, its nodes. Is the sheer numerical force of the people who wouldn't want to see their currency devalued enough to outweigh a well organized or powerful group of hackers/businessmen/gov.'t?
1887 2011-02-23 16:37:51 andrew12 has joined
1888 2011-02-23 16:38:00 <ArtForz> note, to change basic rules you pretty much have to convince everyone to switch
1889 2011-02-23 16:38:29 akem has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1890 2011-02-23 16:40:57 <nanotube> ArtForz: the subset of people who use old rules would reject new-rules blocks. so there will essentially be a chain split.
1891 2011-02-23 16:41:10 <nanotube> anyone who wants to keep using old rules can stay in the old-rules chain
1892 2011-02-23 16:41:18 <nanotube> s/artforz/ocaasi/
1893 2011-02-23 16:41:19 <nanotube> heh
1894 2011-02-23 16:41:20 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|heh, the ptunnel site got blocked here. can anyone mirror the windows binary somewhere for me? :o)
1895 2011-02-23 16:42:14 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|meh, nevermind. it probably won't even work on this computer anyways
1896 2011-02-23 16:43:34 <Ocaasi> That's interesting nanotube. Because historically, when there has been that split, and a branch or group of currency is devalued by inflation, the government usually forces its use by fiat, and the better currency disappears from circulation, since no one wants to waste it and it is more valuable. (see Gresham's law).
1897 2011-02-23 16:46:06 sgtstein has joined
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1899 2011-02-23 16:46:24 <nanotube> Ocaasi: well the day govt forces the accepting of a bitcoin-variant for the purposes of 'legal tender' and tax payments... that'll be the day. heh.
1900 2011-02-23 16:48:49 <Ocaasi> No, the opposite I meant. They would outlaw bitcoin, prosecute its use, and people/major retailers and markets at least/would stop using it as a medium of exchange (who would pay for their shoes in valuable bitcoins (cf. gold) when they could use worthless paper.
1901 2011-02-23 16:49:31 <UukGoblin> I get a bit of that now
1902 2011-02-23 16:49:39 <nanotube> Ocaasi: indeed. illegalizing bitcoin would certainly stop its adoption by us merchants.
1903 2011-02-23 16:49:45 <nanotube> Ocaasi: but us doesn't make world law. :)
1904 2011-02-23 16:49:47 <UukGoblin> I'd pay for something with bitcoin, but I feel its value will increase and don't actually want to waste it...
1905 2011-02-23 16:49:51 <nanotube> and bitcoin is international by its nature.
1906 2011-02-23 16:50:10 <nanotube> UukGoblin: simple: pay with bitcoin, buy enough bitcoin with usd to make up for it.
1907 2011-02-23 16:50:16 filterbox_ has joined
1908 2011-02-23 16:50:31 <UukGoblin> nanotube, yeah, in theory, but often it ends up costing more than the original item in usd ;-]
1909 2011-02-23 16:50:36 <andrew12> school!401a4b78@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.26.75.120|bbl
1910 2011-02-23 16:51:12 <nanotube> UukGoblin: well, then obviously you use the cheapest method. ;)
1911 2011-02-23 16:51:37 <nanotube> if merchant sets rates in btc to be > than usd-equivalent...
1912 2011-02-23 16:51:49 <nanotube> (or gbp)
1913 2011-02-23 16:52:03 mmarker has quit (Quit: Bye)
1914 2011-02-23 16:52:04 <nanotube> then no surprise. if prices are offered at or below market exchange rates, use btc.
1915 2011-02-23 16:52:07 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1916 2011-02-23 16:52:11 <UukGoblin> hrm
1917 2011-02-23 16:52:22 * UukGoblin proposes a new ISO 4217 currency code: RWC
1918 2011-02-23 16:52:23 <Ocaasi> No, US doesn't make world law. But this kind of development might increase IMF regulations globally or have other repercussions. I mention them because this idea is so exciting, so seemingly well-done, and so obvious, that I'm not sure why it won't catch on.
1919 2011-02-23 16:52:30 <UukGoblin> for Real World Currency, as in non-bitcoin
1920 2011-02-23 16:52:31 <nanotube> UukGoblin: rwc?
1921 2011-02-23 16:52:33 <nanotube> ah hehe
1922 2011-02-23 16:52:47 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1923 2011-02-23 16:53:04 <nanotube> Ocaasi: well, they'd have to come up with new laws to block it... hasn't stopped them before, of course ;) but still a bit of a hurdle.
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1927 2011-02-23 16:54:33 <Ocaasi> Oh, it's a big hurdle, and it would require substantial international coordination, enormous increases in web-tracking, and meanwhile create a huge black market in currency. but none of that would surprise me if things came to pass.
1928 2011-02-23 16:54:38 filterbox__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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1934 2011-02-23 16:59:16 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1935 2011-02-23 17:00:39 <BlueMatt> does the payout rate of btc/block change based on total number of blocks of date?
1936 2011-02-23 17:01:01 <BlueMatt> and if date, how do clients check validity?
1937 2011-02-23 17:02:49 bk128 has joined
1938 2011-02-23 17:02:50 bk128 has quit (Changing host)
1939 2011-02-23 17:02:50 bk128 has joined
1940 2011-02-23 17:05:13 <nanotube> BlueMatt: payout rate changes every 210k blocks in the chain.
1941 2011-02-23 17:05:17 <nanotube> nothing to do with date.
1942 2011-02-23 17:05:49 <BlueMatt> how many similar things actually have to do with date?
1943 2011-02-23 17:05:55 <BlueMatt> is it just difficulty adjustment?
1944 2011-02-23 17:06:52 <nanotube> difficulty adjustment looks at block timestamps yes
1945 2011-02-23 17:07:20 <BlueMatt> is there any protection against someone spoofing block timestamps?
1946 2011-02-23 17:09:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, timestamps can't be too far off from the moving average of previous block timestamps or your block will be rejected. I think. If I remember right.
1947 2011-02-23 17:09:48 <ArtForz> timestamp can't be < median of prev 11 blocks
1948 2011-02-23 17:09:55 <ArtForz> err, make that <=
1949 2011-02-23 17:10:14 <ArtForz> also can't be >2h into the future from whatever the client thinks is "now"
1950 2011-02-23 17:10:50 <ArtForz> thats why horribly wrong system clock makes block download not work, client rejects valid blocks as they're "in the future"
1951 2011-02-23 17:11:20 <BlueMatt> ah, ok makes sense then
1952 2011-02-23 17:12:36 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki timestamp
1953 2011-02-23 17:12:37 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_timestamp | Jan 13, 2011 ... Each block contains a Unix time timestamp. In addition to serving as a source of variation for the block hash, there are also validity ...
1954 2011-02-23 17:12:42 <nanotube> BlueMatt: --^
1955 2011-02-23 17:12:48 sabalaba has joined
1956 2011-02-23 17:13:16 <BlueMatt> thanks
1957 2011-02-23 17:14:00 MacRohard has joined
1958 2011-02-23 17:15:56 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1959 2011-02-23 17:16:01 Zarutian has joined
1960 2011-02-23 17:24:15 <molecular> ArtForz, thanks for that clock-hint. my miner's clock was 7s early
1961 2011-02-23 17:25:33 * molecular starts ntpd
1962 2011-02-23 17:26:34 <BlueMatt> ouch 7s, that could kill the network
1963 2011-02-23 17:28:13 <bk128> so how will bitcoin be protected against the y2k38 unix time bug?
1964 2011-02-23 17:28:27 <molecular> Bitcoin uses an unsigned integer for the timestamp, so the year 2038 problem is delayed for another 68 years.
1965 2011-02-23 17:28:57 <molecular> ^ said here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_timestamp
1966 2011-02-23 17:29:19 <bk128> sorry, I meant what happens after that 68 years then
1967 2011-02-23 17:29:22 <ArtForz> and even then theres no real problem as we only use time differences for shit
1968 2011-02-23 17:30:12 <bk128> ok
1969 2011-02-23 17:30:47 RichardG has joined
1970 2011-02-23 17:30:56 <molecular> still, at the overflow-point code has to calc differences correctly somehow
1971 2011-02-23 17:30:59 <ArtForz> probably needs a few more checks to make sure rollover is handled smoothly, but it shouldnt really be too hard
1972 2011-02-23 17:31:02 <ArtForz> so?
1973 2011-02-23 17:31:24 <molecular> that's what I meant, rollover handling
1974 2011-02-23 17:31:25 RG has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1975 2011-02-23 17:31:26 <ArtForz> differences are still calculated correctly
1976 2011-02-23 17:32:09 <molecular> hmm, it's all unsigned, so you're right, I guess
1977 2011-02-23 17:33:23 mtgox2 has joined
1978 2011-02-23 17:34:03 <ArtForz> if "now" is 10 and a block was found at 4294967286, it was found (10 - 4294967286) = 20 (mod 2**32) seconds ago ;)
1979 2011-02-23 17:34:24 <BlueMatt> who would ever use a signed int for a timestamp?
1980 2011-02-23 17:34:44 <BlueMatt> I guess if you care about <1970
1981 2011-02-23 17:35:13 <ArtForz> most *nixes I'd say
1982 2011-02-23 17:35:27 <BlueMatt> but why?
1983 2011-02-23 17:35:41 <ArtForz> dates before 1970 ... probably
1984 2011-02-23 17:36:39 <ArtForz> or because some early *nix did it that way and then everyone else did the same to stay compatible
1985 2011-02-23 17:36:48 <molecular> who would ever store the year in a varchar(2)?
1986 2011-02-23 17:36:53 <molecular> that's multiply stupid
1987 2011-02-23 17:37:08 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1988 2011-02-23 17:37:10 <ArtForz> not really
1989 2011-02-23 17:37:46 <BlueMatt> kind of
1990 2011-02-23 17:38:01 <ArtForz> if you can measure ram costs in integer $ per bit, hacks like that make sense
1991 2011-02-23 17:38:43 <BlueMatt> true
1992 2011-02-23 17:38:44 <BlueMatt> but not anymore
1993 2011-02-23 17:38:44 <molecular> tinyint = 8bit, varchar(2) >= 16 bit
1994 2011-02-23 17:39:00 Raulo has joined
1995 2011-02-23 17:39:07 <ArtForz> iirc most OLD systems stored year as 2-digit BCD ...
1996 2011-02-23 17:39:18 <ArtForz> or as something totally crazy
1997 2011-02-23 17:40:00 <BlueMatt> computer scientists used to do some really crazy stuff
1998 2011-02-23 17:40:02 <ArtForz> unless it's COBOL, then it doesnt HAVE a binary type ;)
1999 2011-02-23 17:40:15 rli has left ()
2000 2011-02-23 17:40:37 <bk128> lol 2 digit bcd
2001 2011-02-23 17:40:38 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2002 2011-02-23 17:40:42 <ArtForz> yep
2003 2011-02-23 17:40:52 <ArtForz> very popular on mainframes
2004 2011-02-23 17:40:58 RichardG has joined
2005 2011-02-23 17:41:03 <molecular> seen punch-cards? they didnt use binary, but had like 10 places to put holes for the decimal digits -> no combination of holes was used
2006 2011-02-23 17:41:14 <ArtForz> sure
2007 2011-02-23 17:41:20 <BlueMatt> who ever had the bright idea of bcd?
2008 2011-02-23 17:41:38 <bk128> I just had to program a countdown timer in 68hc12 asm. used 2 digit bcd
2009 2011-02-23 17:41:42 <ArtForz> why? it makes perfect sense :P
2010 2011-02-23 17:41:58 <BlueMatt> ...yea
2011 2011-02-23 17:42:48 <ArtForz> I used BCD counters to build a simple frequency counter 25 years or so ago
2012 2011-02-23 17:43:10 <BlueMatt> Im glad Im learning computer science after all that crap is long not-used
2013 2011-02-23 17:43:46 <ArtForz> 1Hz generator feeding input gate, BCD counters to simply count pulses to get Hz :P
2014 2011-02-23 17:43:53 <bk128> before I was born
2015 2011-02-23 17:44:04 <[Tycho]> BCD can be still very useful, especially when doing something with money :)
2016 2011-02-23 17:44:16 <bk128> anything in decimal
2017 2011-02-23 17:44:18 <ArtForz> with relay-switched binary predividers for shit > 20MHz or so
2018 2011-02-23 17:44:32 <bk128> fancy
2019 2011-02-23 17:44:49 <bk128> before cmos stuff?
2020 2011-02-23 17:45:07 <[Tycho]> ttl ftw :)
2021 2011-02-23 17:45:07 <ArtForz> early CMOS iirc
2022 2011-02-23 17:45:23 <ArtForz> no wait, original 74 series
2023 2011-02-23 17:45:31 <ArtForz> so, TTL
2024 2011-02-23 17:46:04 chmod755 has joined
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2026 2011-02-23 17:46:12 <ArtForz> predivider was ECL iirc
2027 2011-02-23 17:46:24 <ArtForz> good for north of 100MHz
2028 2011-02-23 17:46:35 * [Tycho] never used any ECL...
2029 2011-02-23 17:47:04 <ArtForz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emitter_coupled_logic
2030 2011-02-23 17:47:17 chmod755 has joined
2031 2011-02-23 17:47:18 <[Tycho]> Yes, i know, but haven't seen in real life.
2032 2011-02-23 17:47:31 <kisom_dev> .c
2033 2011-02-23 17:47:43 <ArtForz> still used in really HF digital circuits
2034 2011-02-23 17:48:29 <[Tycho]> There was a family of hot and fast soviet mainframes built on ECL :)
2035 2011-02-23 17:49:16 <[Tycho]> Also i never seen AsGa chips in real life.
2036 2011-02-23 17:49:47 <ArtForz> also, iirc ECL is used for some crypto stuff
2037 2011-02-23 17:49:57 <[Tycho]> Why ?
2038 2011-02-23 17:50:03 <ArtForz> makes power analysis pretty much impossible
2039 2011-02-23 17:50:46 <[Tycho]> :)
2040 2011-02-23 17:52:33 <ArtForz> and ecls grandkids are still very useful today
2041 2011-02-23 17:53:05 <ArtForz> LVPECL and friends
2042 2011-02-23 17:53:38 <ArtForz> mainly used for really high speed differential signals and clocks
2043 2011-02-23 17:55:17 <bk128> http://i.imgur.com/NR9Mn.jpg lol i've seen this happen before
2044 2011-02-23 17:55:38 <ArtForz> basic trick is, in ECL no transistor is fully saturated
2045 2011-02-23 17:56:02 <bk128> that's why it's faster?
2046 2011-02-23 17:56:04 <ArtForz> yep
2047 2011-02-23 17:56:12 <BlueMatt> bk128: how on earth did o get replaced with g?
2048 2011-02-23 17:56:17 <ArtForz> and because it's based more on currents than on voltages
2049 2011-02-23 17:56:26 <bk128> dunno. just posted here http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/fr1a0/start_wandows_ngrmadly_pic/
2050 2011-02-23 17:56:52 <bk128> but I've seen this problem before too
2051 2011-02-23 17:57:02 <ArtForz> bad bitline?
2052 2011-02-23 17:57:10 <[Tycho]> Yes, i know how ECL works.
2053 2011-02-23 17:57:32 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: yea
2054 2011-02-23 17:57:56 <ArtForz> i -> a = bit 3 cleared, o -> g = bit 3 cleared, l -> d = bit 3 cleared
2055 2011-02-23 17:58:08 <BlueMatt> yea thats what the reddit guys came up with
2056 2011-02-23 17:58:49 <bk128> it's amazing the computer can boot at all
2057 2011-02-23 17:58:52 <ArtForz> also at multiple of 4 chars
2058 2011-02-23 17:59:06 <ArtForz> hmmm... VGA ram fucked?
2059 2011-02-23 17:59:17 <[Tycho]> If it's only video memory, then it shouldn't affect the computer itself.
2060 2011-02-23 17:59:21 <ArtForz> yep
2061 2011-02-23 17:59:31 <bk128> I think i've fixed it by reinstalling windows
2062 2011-02-23 17:59:40 <[Tycho]> I saw similar BSOD on friend's PC
2063 2011-02-23 17:59:43 <bk128> but maybe it was bad mem/ video card. I don't really remember
2064 2011-02-23 17:59:54 <ArtForz> nearly dead VGA cards can cause interesting stuff
2065 2011-02-23 18:00:40 <ArtForz> I think have a 2MB S3 with a dead bit line somewhere
2066 2011-02-23 18:00:49 <ArtForz> even boots into windows in VGA mode
2067 2011-02-23 18:01:06 <ArtForz> well, with lots of vertical stripes
2068 2011-02-23 18:01:09 <bk128> lol
2069 2011-02-23 18:01:34 <ArtForz> guess if the adapter is a "dumb enough" framebuffer it works
2070 2011-02-23 18:03:31 <bk128> it's weird that it's always that exact same bit though. I swear I've seen the exact same misspelling before. I want to think it's a software thing
2071 2011-02-23 18:03:37 <nanotube> hey, who runs bitcoinnews.com?
2072 2011-02-23 18:04:45 <BlueMatt> maybe there are that many memchips and one is dead
2073 2011-02-23 18:04:47 <xelister> hmm
2074 2011-02-23 18:04:59 <ArtForz> hmmm.... same bit. every 32 bits...
2075 2011-02-23 18:05:00 <BlueMatt> ie every 4 chars*8bits
2076 2011-02-23 18:05:13 <BlueMatt> 32 memchips and one is dead maybe
2077 2011-02-23 18:05:34 <xelister> is there some authenticate method (client<->server), where neither Cli nor Server store cleartext of password
2078 2011-02-23 18:06:02 <ArtForz> yes
2079 2011-02-23 18:06:12 <ArtForz> but somewhat useless
2080 2011-02-23 18:06:20 <xelister> both could store eachother pubkey I suppose
2081 2011-02-23 18:06:54 <ArtForz> as the "password equivalent" stored on client is as good as the password
2082 2011-02-23 18:07:16 LobsterMan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2083 2011-02-23 18:07:29 ebel has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2084 2011-02-23 18:08:12 <ArtForz> doesnt matter if it's a hash, a privkey or any other collection of bits
2085 2011-02-23 18:12:39 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, i think there are actually ways to do what he's asking
2086 2011-02-23 18:12:48 <ArtForz> really?
2087 2011-02-23 18:12:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah
2088 2011-02-23 18:13:20 <BlueMatt> example, please?
2089 2011-02-23 18:13:30 <phantomcircuit> lol wait
2090 2011-02-23 18:13:50 <phantomcircuit> you'd need some method of verifying the servers identity
2091 2011-02-23 18:13:53 <devrandom> digest authentication?
2092 2011-02-23 18:14:00 <devrandom> still doesn't help if the client is compromised
2093 2011-02-23 18:14:14 <phantomcircuit> oh he's assuming the client is compromised?
2094 2011-02-23 18:14:25 <phantomcircuit> yeah total loss given they can just use a keylogger
2095 2011-02-23 18:14:43 <ArtForz> yep
2096 2011-02-23 18:15:07 <ArtForz> only way to secure against compromised client is to have a noncompromised client
2097 2011-02-23 18:15:46 <ArtForz> = secure token of some sorts
2098 2011-02-23 18:15:55 <BlueMatt> lol gaddafi's daughter tried to get out of lybia
2099 2011-02-23 18:15:57 <BlueMatt> fail
2100 2011-02-23 18:15:58 <devrandom> or less privileges in the client
2101 2011-02-23 18:16:28 <phantomcircuit> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12557011
2102 2011-02-23 18:16:30 <devrandom> e.g. miner only user/pass
2103 2011-02-23 18:16:41 <phantomcircuit> what is this crap, just drop them from hellicopters above a major somali city
2104 2011-02-23 18:16:45 <phantomcircuit> bam no more pirates
2105 2011-02-23 18:16:48 <ArtForz> my miners dont use any authentication :P
2106 2011-02-23 18:16:54 JxcelDolghmQ has quit ()
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2109 2011-02-23 18:17:04 LobsterMan has joined
2110 2011-02-23 18:17:56 <ArtForz> oh my, someone on my LAN could ... submit valid hashes?
2111 2011-02-23 18:18:18 Ocaasi_ has joined
2112 2011-02-23 18:18:20 <BurtyB> *gasp* ;)
2113 2011-02-23 18:18:44 <ArtForz> oh the huge manatee!
2114 2011-02-23 18:18:56 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2115 2011-02-23 18:19:17 molecular has quit (zapp!~molecular@e176124164.adsl.alicedsl.de|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2116 2011-02-23 18:19:20 Ocaasi has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.16/20101130074636])
2117 2011-02-23 18:19:37 molecular has joined
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2121 2011-02-23 18:23:42 ENKI-[quit] has joined
2122 2011-02-23 18:24:26 <ENKI-[quit]> is there a proper document on the format for bitcoin.conf ? i'm running bitcoind on a headless and xless box, and i'm having trouble finding documentation for it
2123 2011-02-23 18:25:03 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki running bitcoin
2124 2011-02-23 18:25:03 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2125 2011-02-23 18:25:03 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin | Feb 12, 2011 ... #maxconnections= # JSON-RPC options (for controlling a running Bitcoin/bitcoind process) # server=1 tells Bitcoin to accept JSON-RPC ...
2126 2011-02-23 18:25:06 bk128 has joined
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2128 2011-02-23 18:25:09 <nanotube> ENKI-[quit]: --^
2129 2011-02-23 18:26:12 <ENKI-[quit]> so i need to write something to spit out json in order to configure bitcoind?
2130 2011-02-23 18:26:27 <ENKI-[quit]> nm
2131 2011-02-23 18:27:13 MJD has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2132 2011-02-23 18:27:33 <bk128> ArtForz: have you ever run a 3d demo on one of your quad 5970 rigs?
2133 2011-02-23 18:27:43 <nanotube> ENKI-[quit]: nope just var=value textfile :)
2134 2011-02-23 18:27:45 <ArtForz> nope
2135 2011-02-23 18:28:05 <ArtForz> wouldnt make sense, crossfire fails beyond 4 GPUs
2136 2011-02-23 18:28:06 <bk128> I'm kind of curious to see what good game graphics look like now.
2137 2011-02-23 18:28:10 <bk128> oh
2138 2011-02-23 18:28:21 <ArtForz> and quad-gpu 5xxx is fucking useless for 3D anyways
2139 2011-02-23 18:28:38 <bk128> 6000 are really that much better?
2140 2011-02-23 18:28:41 <ArtForz> yep
2141 2011-02-23 18:28:52 <bk128> just because they can do more flops?
2142 2011-02-23 18:28:58 <ArtForz> nope
2143 2011-02-23 18:29:08 <bk128> what else did they change?
2144 2011-02-23 18:29:15 <ArtForz> a shitload
2145 2011-02-23 18:29:57 <bk128> oh. so even though the 5000 series has better btc performance, I'll have a hard time reselling them
2146 2011-02-23 18:30:07 <ArtForz> basically, yep
2147 2011-02-23 18:30:12 <ArtForz> 6xxx is about 20% faster than 58xx with the same # of FLOPS
2148 2011-02-23 18:30:32 <bk128> faster for 3d?
2149 2011-02-23 18:30:35 <ArtForz> a 6870 is about as fast as a 5850 for 3D stuff
2150 2011-02-23 18:30:44 MJD has joined
2151 2011-02-23 18:31:00 <ArtForz> 6950 is about == 5870, 6970 is ~ 20% faster than 5870
2152 2011-02-23 18:31:18 <ArtForz> and dual 6970 is about 40% faster on average than dual 5870
2153 2011-02-23 18:31:27 <bk128> do you think the kernel will ever run as fast on a 6xxx card as it does on the 5970?
2154 2011-02-23 18:31:35 <ArtForz> which is why I expect 6990 to be a real killer for 3D
2155 2011-02-23 18:32:13 <ArtForz> it already would, if 2.3 OpenCL wasnt that horribly broken
2156 2011-02-23 18:32:27 * [Tycho] had almost a best possible video board, but never run any games on it, except for ~30 sec. run of HL2 and Portal just to see how much faster it would be comparing to intergated graphics :)
2157 2011-02-23 18:32:40 <bk128> ArtForz: are you optimistic about them fixing it anytime soon?
2158 2011-02-23 18:32:43 <ArtForz> and of course if 6990 were out...
2159 2011-02-23 18:32:57 <ArtForz> not too optimistic, maybe in 2.5 ...
2160 2011-02-23 18:33:08 <bk128> months?
2161 2011-02-23 18:33:21 <[Tycho]> Is 5970 already not good enough for current games ?
2162 2011-02-23 18:33:32 <ArtForz> for certain games, 5970 suuuucks
2163 2011-02-23 18:33:37 <ArtForz> = slower than a 5850
2164 2011-02-23 18:33:43 <[Tycho]> Like Photoshop ?
2165 2011-02-23 18:33:46 <bk128> what else did they change about the arch?
2166 2011-02-23 18:34:03 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, because of lower frequency ?
2167 2011-02-23 18:34:15 <ArtForz> pretty much
2168 2011-02-23 18:34:29 <[Tycho]> Luckily i have 5870 too.
2169 2011-02-23 18:34:30 <bk128> what's the clock speed of 6xxx?
2170 2011-02-23 18:34:33 <ArtForz> basically some games exhibit *negative* scaling in 58/59xx crossfire
2171 2011-02-23 18:34:44 <ArtForz> 800 for 6950, 880 for 6970
2172 2011-02-23 18:34:53 <[Tycho]> But i never played any game after Portal, so can't really imagine their requirments.
2173 2011-02-23 18:35:16 gavinandresen has left ()
2174 2011-02-23 18:35:39 <bk128> I haven't played anything after portal either
2175 2011-02-23 18:35:51 <bk128> wait, minecraft a bit
2176 2011-02-23 18:36:00 <ArtForz> 69xx has 4x the tesselation throughput, twice as many tex units, 2x geometry units, 4x tesselation performance, ...
2177 2011-02-23 18:36:35 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2178 2011-02-23 18:36:39 <ArtForz> also improved warp schedulers, 2 DMA engines instead of 1, improved memory controllers, some other crap I can't remember
2179 2011-02-23 18:36:45 <[Tycho]> And i played it on Intel's integrated graphics of 35th chipset, which was not fast enough when displaying portals :)
2180 2011-02-23 18:37:28 <ArtForz> basically 58xx had shitloads of shaders and was usually bottlenecked by something else
2181 2011-02-23 18:37:46 <ENKI-[quit]> >.<
2182 2011-02-23 18:37:57 <ENKI-[quit]> alright. so, how do i figure out my bitcoin address from the command line?
2183 2011-02-23 18:38:08 <ENKI-[quit]> (is it just me, or is the documentation very gui-centric?)
2184 2011-02-23 18:38:18 <ArtForz> 68xx is a bit of a mix of both worlds
2185 2011-02-23 18:39:22 <ArtForz> basically 57xx shaders, mem controller similar to a doubled 55/56xx, scheduler and tess unit similar to half a 69xx, ...
2186 2011-02-23 18:40:31 <ArtForz> they basically went for max avg 3d perf/mm² with it
2187 2011-02-23 18:41:12 bk128 has joined
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2189 2011-02-23 18:41:13 bk128 has joined
2190 2011-02-23 18:42:38 <ArtForz> so 68xx is mostly existing 5xxx design blocks rearranged and combined with a few new/improved blocks
2191 2011-02-23 18:43:04 <ArtForz> while for 69xx they pretty much used new/improved stuff everywhere
2192 2011-02-23 18:43:55 <bk128> so all these tex units, geometry units, etc are separate from the stream processors?
2193 2011-02-23 18:44:01 <ArtForz> yep
2194 2011-02-23 18:44:11 <bk128> or they're part of the stream processors
2195 2011-02-23 18:44:36 <ArtForz> well, they technically are part of the CUs, but seperate from the programmable shader units
2196 2011-02-23 18:44:38 <xelister> ENKI-[quit]: make a new one using ~/bitcoin getnewaddress
2197 2011-02-23 18:44:48 <xelister> ENKI-[quit]: or ~/bitcoind
2198 2011-02-23 18:44:51 <ENKI-[quit]> >.<
2199 2011-02-23 18:44:54 <xelister> or ./bitcoind you get the point
2200 2011-02-23 18:45:08 <xelister> or bitcoind.exe for windows poor users ;)
2201 2011-02-23 18:45:10 <ArtForz> so not really part of the stream processors
2202 2011-02-23 18:45:13 <ENKI-[quit]> one of these days somebody should probably write a manpage ;-)
2203 2011-02-23 18:45:38 <bk128> the organization of everything still confuses me. what docs should I look at besides the ISAs?
2204 2011-02-23 18:46:05 <bk128> maybe I'll go through the opencl university kit
2205 2011-02-23 18:46:12 <ArtForz> I think one of the OpenCL programming/optimization guides explains the overal arch pretty well
2206 2011-02-23 18:46:22 <ArtForz> at least for 5xxx
2207 2011-02-23 18:48:57 <bk128> remember which doc?
2208 2011-02-23 18:49:20 <ArtForz> searching
2209 2011-02-23 18:49:25 <bk128> thanks :)
2210 2011-02-23 18:52:55 akem has joined
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2212 2011-02-23 18:52:55 akem has joined
2213 2011-02-23 18:58:49 molecular has quit (zapp!~molecular@e176116040.adsl.alicedsl.de|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2214 2011-02-23 18:58:59 <ArtForz> hmmm, can't find it anymore
2215 2011-02-23 19:05:18 <bk128> ok. i'll see if i can find it. thanks for looking
2216 2011-02-23 19:05:40 <ArtForz> iirc it wasnt in the gpgpu section
2217 2011-02-23 19:05:51 <ArtForz> covered more general stuff
2218 2011-02-23 19:06:14 <ArtForz> obviously the gpgpu docs focus mainly on the programmable computation side of things
2219 2011-02-23 19:07:03 <bk128> yeah. gotta find somewhere to plug in my laptop. back in 5-10
2220 2011-02-23 19:07:15 <BlueMatt> Is puddinpop's cuda miner just a modified version of the opencl one?
2221 2011-02-23 19:07:53 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2222 2011-02-23 19:08:32 <lfm> BlueMatt: dunno which came first but since theyre from the same guy they will be similar
2223 2011-02-23 19:08:42 appamatto has joined
2224 2011-02-23 19:09:08 <BlueMatt> Id assume its no better performance than Diablo's then?
2225 2011-02-23 19:10:35 <Diablo-D3> whos?
2226 2011-02-23 19:10:42 <Diablo-D3> because nvidia performance on ANYTHING is shit
2227 2011-02-23 19:10:51 <Diablo-D3> cuda, opencl, magic fairy dust
2228 2011-02-23 19:10:56 <lfm> pudinpop's
2229 2011-02-23 19:11:18 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: everything except what they are designed for (GAMES)
2230 2011-02-23 19:11:50 bk128 has joined
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2232 2011-02-23 19:11:50 bk128 has joined
2233 2011-02-23 19:11:54 <lfm> maybe not really just games, video and graphics
2234 2011-02-23 19:11:55 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: nope, they suck dick at games too
2235 2011-02-23 19:12:10 <Diablo-D3> even rather common sp fp ops suck dick on nvidia
2236 2011-02-23 19:12:14 <Diablo-D3> the whole entire arch is wrong
2237 2011-02-23 19:12:30 <ArtForz> well, yes, because it's a fucking design boondoggle
2238 2011-02-23 19:12:33 <BlueMatt> ok, you hate nvidia, I get it. Im not gonna get into a nerd turf war with you
2239 2011-02-23 19:12:47 <ArtForz> fermi was never meant to be used for graphics
2240 2011-02-23 19:13:15 <BlueMatt> yea their recent designs have been shit though
2241 2011-02-23 19:13:22 <BlueMatt> fermi was kind of one big fail
2242 2011-02-23 19:13:30 <ArtForz> because it was never meant to be a GPU ;)
2243 2011-02-23 19:13:36 <ArtForz> NV3xx was supposed to be the GPU
2244 2011-02-23 19:13:53 <ArtForz> fermi was supposed to be a compute processor
2245 2011-02-23 19:13:54 <lfm> cpu?
2246 2011-02-23 19:14:10 <ArtForz> more like add-on vector processor
2247 2011-02-23 19:14:32 <BlueMatt> I sure hope keppler brings them back
2248 2011-02-23 19:14:34 <ArtForz> basically GPGPU with more GP and less GPU
2249 2011-02-23 19:14:38 <lfm> like the old 8087 line
2250 2011-02-23 19:14:40 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: it was never meant to be anything
2251 2011-02-23 19:14:47 <Diablo-D3> its slow as shit for any reasonable compute task
2252 2011-02-23 19:14:53 <ArtForz> then 3xx kinda died in the design stage
2253 2011-02-23 19:15:02 <Diablo-D3> and if it was so GP... where the fuck is the integer shit
2254 2011-02-23 19:15:13 <bk128> kepler is 28nm? wow
2255 2011-02-23 19:15:49 <ArtForz> so what did they do? add more GPUy hardware to fermi to also become a "decent" GPU
2256 2011-02-23 19:15:55 <Diablo-D3> bk128: which is about 6 months to a year after 7xxx ships on 28nm
2257 2011-02-23 19:16:02 <ArtForz> end result was a huge chip
2258 2011-02-23 19:16:06 <BlueMatt> no one knows yet
2259 2011-02-23 19:16:16 <ArtForz> later fermis arent quite as bad anymore
2260 2011-02-23 19:16:33 <BlueMatt> no, they have gotten good but it took them WAY too long
2261 2011-02-23 19:16:56 <bk128> ati 7xxx is going to be 28? wow
2262 2011-02-23 19:17:03 <ArtForz> yea
2263 2011-02-23 19:17:10 <bk128> is any intel stuff 28 yet or are they still at 32
2264 2011-02-23 19:17:25 <Diablo-D3> 6xxx was going to be 7xxxx on 32, but they decided it wasnt worth it
2265 2011-02-23 19:17:29 <ArtForz> I suspect we'll also see a 28nm 6xxx late '11 - early '12
2266 2011-02-23 19:17:38 <ArtForz> probably 6750/70
2267 2011-02-23 19:17:54 gavinandresen has joined
2268 2011-02-23 19:17:58 <Diablo-D3> so 68xx is hyper optimized 5xxx, 69xx is a cut down version of what will eventually become 7xxx
2269 2011-02-23 19:17:59 <BlueMatt> The same time keppler is supposed to come out
2270 2011-02-23 19:18:02 <ArtForz> yep
2271 2011-02-23 19:18:18 <ArtForz> the story about how 68xx started is kinda funny
2272 2011-02-23 19:18:23 <BlueMatt> the same as the 480 is a cut down, shitty version of the 580
2273 2011-02-23 19:18:38 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: thats rather backwards.
2274 2011-02-23 19:18:41 <ArtForz> basically ATI realized that 32nm would be quite expensive, and decided that their mid-range cards would instead be improved 5xxxs on 40nm
2275 2011-02-23 19:18:43 <Diablo-D3> the 480 came first
2276 2011-02-23 19:18:45 <ArtForz> err... no
2277 2011-02-23 19:18:51 <Diablo-D3> the 69xx _didnt_ come first.
2278 2011-02-23 19:18:56 <ArtForz> 480 was a cut down GF100 aka fermi
2279 2011-02-23 19:19:01 <BlueMatt> oh
2280 2011-02-23 19:19:02 <edcba> mtgox2: you can't place a time limit on your orders ?
2281 2011-02-23 19:19:12 <ArtForz> 580 is something... different
2282 2011-02-23 19:19:14 <Diablo-D3> 69xx was produced from the 7xxx research line
2283 2011-02-23 19:19:18 <ArtForz> yep
2284 2011-02-23 19:19:21 <BlueMatt> ArtForz and 580 is GF110, which is really 100 with a couple tiny tweaks
2285 2011-02-23 19:19:28 <Diablo-D3> "tiny"
2286 2011-02-23 19:19:33 <Diablo-D3> thats like saying hitler, but blond.
2287 2011-02-23 19:19:34 <BlueMatt> its effectively the same but the 580 isnt cut down
2288 2011-02-23 19:19:48 <ArtForz> "tiny" as in REMOVING 3/4 OF THE DP UNITS
2289 2011-02-23 19:20:02 <BlueMatt> I meant tiny changes in the design
2290 2011-02-23 19:20:07 <BlueMatt> not changes in the cut out parts
2291 2011-02-23 19:20:08 <Diablo-D3> a super-ayrian!
2292 2011-02-23 19:20:09 <CIA-57> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rccd7fe8 / serialize.h : Bump version to 0.3.20.02 - http://bit.ly/f36gHr
2293 2011-02-23 19:20:21 <Diablo-D3> my body isnt ready for this :<
2294 2011-02-23 19:20:24 <BlueMatt> full GF100 == 580 (with TINY changes to platform)
2295 2011-02-23 19:20:29 <ArtForz> no
2296 2011-02-23 19:20:31 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: bullshit
2297 2011-02-23 19:20:35 <ArtForz> full GF100 = still doesnt exist
2298 2011-02-23 19:20:43 <BlueMatt> it wont
2299 2011-02-23 19:21:04 <ArtForz> GF110 only has 1/4 the DP hardware of a GF100 = there wont be GF110 teslas
2300 2011-02-23 19:21:07 <Diablo-D3> GF1xy
2301 2011-02-23 19:21:14 <Diablo-D3> where x is gen number, and y is how small it is
2302 2011-02-23 19:21:15 <BlueMatt> if it had it would effectivley be GF110 but on 40nm
2303 2011-02-23 19:21:36 <Diablo-D3> so GF108 is a gen one that haslike an 8th of the pipes
2304 2011-02-23 19:22:01 <Diablo-D3> y can be 0, 4, 6, or 8
2305 2011-02-23 19:22:13 <Diablo-D3> bigger the number, smaller the die
2306 2011-02-23 19:22:46 <BlueMatt> Yes, and GF11X is similar to GF10X, but smaller fab
2307 2011-02-23 19:22:55 <BlueMatt> but there will never be a full GF10X
2308 2011-02-23 19:22:58 <BlueMatt> 100*
2309 2011-02-23 19:23:01 <Diablo-D3> now, otoh
2310 2011-02-23 19:23:04 <ArtForz> well, what ATI basically did when 32nm was cancelled is cut down the performance 7xxx part until it was "small enough" on 40nm
2311 2011-02-23 19:23:21 <ArtForz> thats where all the rumors of 1920SP 6970s came from
2312 2011-02-23 19:23:40 bitcoiner_ has joined
2313 2011-02-23 19:23:42 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but not only that
2314 2011-02-23 19:23:48 <Diablo-D3> they had insane yield quality
2315 2011-02-23 19:23:51 bitcoiner_ has quit (Client Quit)
2316 2011-02-23 19:23:52 <ArtForz> that would've been the actual planned 6970 on 32nm
2317 2011-02-23 19:23:57 <Diablo-D3> because the chip design was for 32nm and cleaned up very well
2318 2011-02-23 19:24:09 <Diablo-D3> at 40nm it was impervious to defects
2319 2011-02-23 19:24:23 <ArtForz> and it would've been about the same mm² as a 5870
2320 2011-02-23 19:24:26 <bk128> ArtForz: general question: why does the video memory speed ever need to be higher than the gpu clocks speed?
2321 2011-02-23 19:24:34 <ArtForz> no real reason
2322 2011-02-23 19:24:38 <Diablo-D3> bk128: those are unrelated.
2323 2011-02-23 19:24:46 <ArtForz> my 5770s happily run at core > mem clock
2324 2011-02-23 19:24:51 <Diablo-D3> if I had a 2048 bit wide memory chip, the clock speed would be 1/8th that
2325 2011-02-23 19:24:54 <bk128> for games does it make sense though?
2326 2011-02-23 19:25:00 <ArtForz> probably
2327 2011-02-23 19:25:09 <Diablo-D3> bk128: memory is measured in latency and memory bandwidth, not clocks.
2328 2011-02-23 19:25:13 <ArtForz> otherwise mfgs most likely wouldnt be doing it ;)
2329 2011-02-23 19:25:22 <Diablo-D3> saying memory is 5ghz is a pointless and meaningless mention.
2330 2011-02-23 19:25:28 <KBme> mfgs?
2331 2011-02-23 19:25:34 <ArtForz> manufacturers
2332 2011-02-23 19:25:36 <Diablo-D3> that tells you nothing about the latency and the memory bandwidth.
2333 2011-02-23 19:25:40 <ArtForz> bus width costs more than frequency
2334 2011-02-23 19:25:41 <bk128> so gpu isn't responsible for loading textures into the vram?
2335 2011-02-23 19:25:42 * KBme urbandictionary
2336 2011-02-23 19:26:02 <ArtForz> so it makes sense to use a less wide and higher clocked bus
2337 2011-02-23 19:26:03 <bk128> can the gpu read or write to vram in a single gpu clock?
2338 2011-02-23 19:26:06 <ArtForz> no
2339 2011-02-23 19:26:06 <Diablo-D3> bk128: the gpu part of the gpu? no.
2340 2011-02-23 19:26:08 <KBme> ah heh
2341 2011-02-23 19:26:14 <Diablo-D3> bk128: the memory manager? yes.
2342 2011-02-23 19:26:17 <bk128> oh
2343 2011-02-23 19:26:23 <Diablo-D3> and no, vram takes a shitload of cycles
2344 2011-02-23 19:26:26 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2345 2011-02-23 19:26:27 <ArtForz> all ram access goes through dedicated load/store units
2346 2011-02-23 19:26:30 <Diablo-D3> theres a table in amd's opencl pdf
2347 2011-02-23 19:26:36 <bk128> ok
2348 2011-02-23 19:26:48 <Diablo-D3> an aligned read out of vram is slow and takes forever
2349 2011-02-23 19:26:53 <ArtForz> latency and random-access performance for vram is pretty bad
2350 2011-02-23 19:27:16 <Diablo-D3> ironic since gddr5 on the fast radeons is like 15 times ddr3-1333 dual channel or some shit
2351 2011-02-23 19:27:32 <Diablo-D3> Im too lazy to do the math again
2352 2011-02-23 19:27:33 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
2353 2011-02-23 19:27:54 <ArtForz> memory latency really didnt decrease much in the last few generations
2354 2011-02-23 19:27:56 <bk128> dram will always suck?
2355 2011-02-23 19:28:10 skeledrew has joined
2356 2011-02-23 19:28:10 <ArtForz> most likely yes
2357 2011-02-23 19:28:12 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2358 2011-02-23 19:28:25 <Diablo-D3> its always slower than in-pipe cache.
2359 2011-02-23 19:28:34 <ArtForz> I'm still waiting for flash DRAM ;)
2360 2011-02-23 19:28:46 <Diablo-D3> and it'll still be slower than, say, the fucking registers.
2361 2011-02-23 19:29:04 <ArtForz> sounds weird as hell, but flash and dram cells arent THAT different
2362 2011-02-23 19:29:18 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: erm, they're not different at all
2363 2011-02-23 19:29:24 <Diablo-D3> go look at platforms that do execute from flash
2364 2011-02-23 19:29:35 <ArtForz> I mean physically
2365 2011-02-23 19:29:50 <Diablo-D3> well, theres only so many ways to design that shit
2366 2011-02-23 19:29:53 <ArtForz> = you can create a "mixed" cell
2367 2011-02-23 19:29:55 <bk128> flash dram?
2368 2011-02-23 19:30:06 <ArtForz> basically a DRAM that reverts to ca chosen state if not refreshed
2369 2011-02-23 19:30:16 <bk128> doesnt flash wear out?
2370 2011-02-23 19:30:19 <ArtForz> it does
2371 2011-02-23 19:30:21 <Diablo-D3> yes
2372 2011-02-23 19:30:30 <Diablo-D3> enterprise SLCs take forever though
2373 2011-02-23 19:30:43 <ArtForz> pretty obvious when you look at how data is "permanently" written
2374 2011-02-23 19:30:49 Jeroenz0r_ has joined
2375 2011-02-23 19:30:54 <Diablo-D3> even longer when factoring in sane controllers that arent shit
2376 2011-02-23 19:31:09 Jeroenz0r_ has quit (Client Quit)
2377 2011-02-23 19:31:16 * bk128 goes to wikipedia again
2378 2011-02-23 19:31:22 <ArtForz> you basically increase voltage until the dielectric breaks down to shove electrons to/from the floating gate
2379 2011-02-23 19:31:42 <bk128> and that's nand flash?
2380 2011-02-23 19:31:47 <ArtForz> yep
2381 2011-02-23 19:31:52 <ArtForz> doing that a few 1000 times doesnt exactly improve the dielectric...
2382 2011-02-23 19:32:00 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2383 2011-02-23 19:32:33 <ArtForz> iirc each time you write your gate oxide becomes a little more leaky
2384 2011-02-23 19:32:57 <bk128> ah
2385 2011-02-23 19:33:15 <bk128> do ssd's have any kind of parity check?
2386 2011-02-23 19:33:31 <ArtForz> usually reed-solomon ECC
2387 2011-02-23 19:33:46 <ArtForz> and plenty of that
2388 2011-02-23 19:33:58 <bk128> that's good
2389 2011-02-23 19:34:26 <ArtForz> kinda neccessary, as you can't detect a "slightly leaky" cell that'll lose its state after a few days/weeks/years
2390 2011-02-23 19:34:28 <bk128> oh, what's the easiest way to encrypt the wallet.dat file? anything I can do with cron in command line with a built in tool?
2391 2011-02-23 19:34:31 <bk128> in debian
2392 2011-02-23 19:34:36 * BlueMatt wishes he knew half of what art does
2393 2011-02-23 19:35:06 * bk128 wishes he knew half of what art has forgotten
2394 2011-02-23 19:35:06 <BlueMatt> bk128: write a bash script using openssl aes
2395 2011-02-23 19:35:16 benkant has joined
2396 2011-02-23 19:35:26 benkant has quit (Client Quit)
2397 2011-02-23 19:35:35 <BlueMatt> write one that decrypts, opens bitcoin, encrypts when it closes
2398 2011-02-23 19:35:57 <KBme> or GPG
2399 2011-02-23 19:36:00 <bk128> I was thinking more of encrypting then sftp put on a server
2400 2011-02-23 19:36:03 <KBme> just ues gpg
2401 2011-02-23 19:36:29 <BlueMatt> openssl's aes or 3des is just as easy
2402 2011-02-23 19:36:34 <KBme> like unencrypt the wallet, start bitcoin, when bitcoin stops gpg the wallet and scp somewhere
2403 2011-02-23 19:36:37 <bk128> isn't des bad now?
2404 2011-02-23 19:36:45 <BlueMatt> not really
2405 2011-02-23 19:36:54 <BlueMatt> its not perfect, but its not by any means bad
2406 2011-02-23 19:36:56 <lfm> bk128you could use pkzip encryption, not sure how strong it is but I think its still sucre
2407 2011-02-23 19:37:02 <gasteve> think AES-256 is about the best symmetric encryption right now
2408 2011-02-23 19:37:09 <KBme> 3des isn't that bad, still, gpg!
2409 2011-02-23 19:37:14 <KBme> and why not gpg?
2410 2011-02-23 19:37:17 <ArtForz> http://www.microway.com/images/Octoputer_Tesla1000px.png
2411 2011-02-23 19:37:20 <ArtForz> poor teslas...
2412 2011-02-23 19:37:24 LobsterMan has joined
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2414 2011-02-23 19:37:24 LobsterMan has joined
2415 2011-02-23 19:37:33 <BlueMatt> really it doesnt matter what you use, just decrypt, run bitcoin, encrypt
2416 2011-02-23 19:37:38 <bk128> kinda warm in there?
2417 2011-02-23 19:37:40 <BlueMatt> Art: dam that has to be HOT
2418 2011-02-23 19:37:43 sabalaba has joined
2419 2011-02-23 19:37:53 <KBme> wtf?
2420 2011-02-23 19:37:58 <KBme> what's a tesla?
2421 2011-02-23 19:38:08 <bk128> nvidia card meant for cuda stuff
2422 2011-02-23 19:38:11 <BlueMatt> tesla == nvidia's current architecture
2423 2011-02-23 19:38:17 <KBme> ooo
2424 2011-02-23 19:38:33 <BlueMatt> ie gtx400-gtx500 and the compute versions
2425 2011-02-23 19:38:37 <bk128> ArtForz: is it possible to make your own pci-e backplane for a ton of ati cards? or is it limited by the chipset
2426 2011-02-23 19:38:51 <ArtForz> its possible, but expensive
2427 2011-02-23 19:39:17 <KBme> wtf do people use this stuff for i wonder..
2428 2011-02-23 19:39:22 <gasteve> what is the max pcie x16 slots you can get on a mobo?
2429 2011-02-23 19:39:26 <KBme> ok, calculate hashes...other than that?
2430 2011-02-23 19:39:28 <bk128> is everything just kinda wired in parallel?
2431 2011-02-23 19:39:40 <ArtForz> nope
2432 2011-02-23 19:39:51 <ArtForz> PCIe is a point-to-point link
2433 2011-02-23 19:40:16 <[Tycho]> There was SGI Prism, but it has only 2 slots per MB
2434 2011-02-23 19:40:18 <bk128> so each data line in each slot goes direct to the chipset/cpu?
2435 2011-02-23 19:40:23 <ArtForz> yes
2436 2011-02-23 19:40:27 <bk128> ah
2437 2011-02-23 19:40:28 <ArtForz> or to a bridge chip
2438 2011-02-23 19:40:43 <ArtForz> which basically acts like a PCIe store+forward switch
2439 2011-02-23 19:40:59 <BlueMatt> for hashing, the pcie width doesnt really matter does it?
2440 2011-02-23 19:41:08 <ArtForz> nope
2441 2011-02-23 19:41:13 <bk128> like a network switch?
2442 2011-02-23 19:41:25 <BlueMatt> thus a mobo w/ 8 x1 is effectively the same as one w/ 8 x16?
2443 2011-02-23 19:41:28 <ArtForz> pretty much, just a lot faster and using a different protocol
2444 2011-02-23 19:41:34 <ArtForz> for hashing? yes
2445 2011-02-23 19:41:44 <bk128> so you could expand the # of pci-e devices by building your own backplane with a bridge chip?
2446 2011-02-23 19:41:50 <BlueMatt> anyone have 8 gpus in one mobo for hashing yet?
2447 2011-02-23 19:41:51 <ArtForz> yes
2448 2011-02-23 19:41:59 bitcoiner has joined
2449 2011-02-23 19:42:00 <BlueMatt> of course art does
2450 2011-02-23 19:42:03 <ArtForz> industrial PCIe backplanes are built that way
2451 2011-02-23 19:42:20 <bk128> you'd probably need at least a 4 layer board...
2452 2011-02-23 19:42:26 <bk128> yeah not worth it
2453 2011-02-23 19:42:53 <bk128> even to build a 1x expander would be ridiculous
2454 2011-02-23 19:42:57 <ArtForz> and the bridge chips are expensive in small qtys
2455 2011-02-23 19:43:32 <ArtForz> iirc ~$40 for a x4 to 4 * x1 bridge
2456 2011-02-23 19:44:21 <BlueMatt> what is the highest mobo pcie count on the market?
2457 2011-02-23 19:44:23 <ArtForz> add cost of longish 4-layer PCB (needs to be, as you need enough space between slots...) and you realize just using 2*x16 mainboards is actually cheaper :/
2458 2011-02-23 19:44:28 <ArtForz> 8* x16 I think
2459 2011-02-23 19:44:31 <gasteve> so, if you wanted to build out a ridiculous number of GPUs, there would probably be some number of GPUs that is optimal per mobo (considering both up front cost and energy costs)
2460 2011-02-23 19:44:57 <ArtForz> teslas 1U compute units are kinda built that way
2461 2011-02-23 19:45:20 <ArtForz> 4 GPUs, 2 x16-to-2*x16 bridges, 2 PCIe x16 cables
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2463 2011-02-23 19:45:49 <knotwork> how much overhead is the mobo itself? as you can pretty much get computers free from furniture banks etc lately
2464 2011-02-23 19:46:10 <bk128> lol and good luck finding anything with 1 or more pci-e slots
2465 2011-02-23 19:46:27 <knotwork> how much saving is there in sticking all the GPUs into one machine instead of using bunch of cheap old machines?
2466 2011-02-23 19:46:40 <ArtForz> cheapest option is to just get something like MSI 870-G45 boards, semprons and 1GB ddr3 sticks
2467 2011-02-23 19:46:51 <knotwork> oh its not the old pci slots eh
2468 2011-02-23 19:47:00 <ArtForz> cheap old machines usually dont have dual PCIe slots...
2469 2011-02-23 19:47:40 <bk128> or any pci-e slots. new cheap dells don't even have the pci-e connector soldered on
2470 2011-02-23 19:47:48 <ArtForz> with some shopping around mainboard+cpu+ram for 2 cards is like $120
2471 2011-02-23 19:48:32 <bk128> ArtForz: I used the MSI 870-G45. have 2 5870's in it now. i'm going to try to add a third to the x1 slot
2472 2011-02-23 19:48:34 <[Tycho]> Good PSU may cost the same.
2473 2011-02-23 19:48:38 <ArtForz> yep
2474 2011-02-23 19:49:04 <ArtForz> one benefit of only 2 cards/box, you have a lot less problems with ventilation
2475 2011-02-23 19:49:30 <ArtForz> = $50 4U rackmount or a $20 chinese "gamer" case works fine
2476 2011-02-23 19:49:32 <bk128> I'm running the two cards at 900mhz and 70C now with a blower fan in that box
2477 2011-02-23 19:49:51 * BurtyB took the dremel to a dell MB last night so i could fit a x16 in it
2478 2011-02-23 19:50:15 <bk128> I always hate making metal dust near pc parts
2479 2011-02-23 19:50:17 <BurtyB> I don't know why dell want to make things so hard (well other than them wanting you to pay more)
2480 2011-02-23 19:50:58 <ArtForz> remember when dell used mainboard power connectors that looked exactly like 20-pin ATX but with +3.3 and +5V swapped?
2481 2011-02-23 19:51:04 <ArtForz> now THAT was evil
2482 2011-02-23 19:51:10 <BurtyB> yeah :/
2483 2011-02-23 19:51:49 <bk128> wtf
2484 2011-02-23 19:51:53 <bk128> didnt know that
2485 2011-02-23 19:53:05 <bk128> ok I gotta go to class
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2487 2011-02-23 19:53:24 <lfm> have fun
2488 2011-02-23 19:54:47 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2489 2011-02-23 19:55:30 * [Tycho] would like to see $50 rackmount cases :( It's starting from $160 and more...
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2491 2011-02-23 19:57:27 <gasteve> I got one for $79
2492 2011-02-23 19:57:32 <gasteve> 4U
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2496 2011-02-23 20:01:53 <KBme> 4U space costs a lot
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2501 2011-02-23 20:05:20 <crichton> ArtForz: Thanks for the help. My code still sucks, but it sucks far, far less.
2502 2011-02-23 20:05:24 <crichton> Oh hell
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2514 2011-02-23 20:08:47 <mmarker> Anyone use the java implementation of the protocol in their own code yet?
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2523 2011-02-23 20:51:28 <lfm> mmarker: hmm? you mean like diablo's miner?
2524 2011-02-23 20:52:02 mekel has joined
2525 2011-02-23 20:52:09 <mekel> what is the best linux OS
2526 2011-02-23 20:52:18 <mekel> are there any specific installs?
2527 2011-02-23 20:52:24 <mekel> for btc
2528 2011-02-23 20:52:38 <gasteve> many people seem to be using Ubuntu
2529 2011-02-23 20:53:02 <BlueMatt> ubuntu tends to be one of the easiest to use
2530 2011-02-23 20:53:10 <gasteve> I just installed it myself...seems pretty good (and like that it uses the Debian package management system)
2531 2011-02-23 20:53:33 <BlueMatt> its all based on debian
2532 2011-02-23 20:53:43 <BlueMatt> though upgrades somewhere
2533 2011-02-23 20:53:45 <BlueMatt> like installer etc
2534 2011-02-23 20:54:15 <gasteve> yeah...it's sort of like they took Debian, dressed it up, made it take a shower and get ready for a party
2535 2011-02-23 20:54:16 <lfm> some people use debian, some use ubuntu, some use arch or gentoo
2536 2011-02-23 20:54:51 <BlueMatt> I like arch, but tend to use ubuntu as well
2537 2011-02-23 20:54:55 <BlueMatt> debian on many of my servers
2538 2011-02-23 20:55:14 <BlueMatt> gasteve: it was is a debian branch, so that was the goal
2539 2011-02-23 20:55:25 <BlueMatt> it is a debian branch ish*
2540 2011-02-23 20:57:48 <lfm> I dont think there is a single best linux distro. its really in the eye of the beholder
2541 2011-02-23 20:59:04 <sipa> is there a single best anything?
2542 2011-02-23 21:00:24 <lfm> maybe
2543 2011-02-23 21:01:32 <BlueMatt> I disagree
2544 2011-02-23 21:01:41 <BlueMatt> if there is competition, there is no best
2545 2011-02-23 21:05:19 <comboy> Diablo-D3: around?
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2550 2011-02-23 21:07:12 <mmarker> No, someone wrote a Java implementation of the wire protocol
2551 2011-02-23 21:07:21 <mmarker> for 3rd party clients to talk to the network
2552 2011-02-23 21:07:50 <lfm> oh where is it?
2553 2011-02-23 21:07:56 <mmarker> sipa: Yes.
2554 2011-02-23 21:08:04 <mmarker> What, I don't know. But there is.
2555 2011-02-23 21:08:14 <mmarker> lfm: it's on the forums and then on github.
2556 2011-02-23 21:08:36 <mmarker> Saw it, and seriously thinking on using that for my android work vs a hacked up bitcoind
2557 2011-02-23 21:08:41 <mmarker> both have pros/cons
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2562 2011-02-23 21:23:27 <appamatto> ;bc,stats
2563 2011-02-23 21:23:32 <appamatto> I forgot the command again :P
2564 2011-02-23 21:24:40 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
2565 2011-02-23 21:24:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110008 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 871 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 8 hours, 2 minutes, and 10 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 51199.87792811
2566 2011-02-23 21:26:49 <knotwork> do any of the bitcoin processing services provide "subscriptions" denominated in bitcoins per timespan ?
2567 2011-02-23 21:32:55 DoomDumas has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2568 2011-02-23 21:33:38 <lfm> knotwork: huh?
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2570 2011-02-23 21:34:58 <knotwork> subscriptions, like so many bitcoins per month, most normal payment processors have them
2571 2011-02-23 21:35:14 <knotwork> used for things like hosting or membership sites
2572 2011-02-23 21:36:51 <lfm> you want to buy a fixed number of btc per month?
2573 2011-02-23 21:36:54 <BlueMatt> you mean like mybitcoin automatically sending btc?
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2575 2011-02-23 21:38:43 <knotwork> yes, something like mybitcoin but instead of someone sending you just one sum once, they subscribe
2576 2011-02-23 21:39:07 <knotwork> so mybitcoin (or whovever) runs a cron that sends out subscription payments regularly
2577 2011-02-23 21:39:11 * BurtyB would assume like paypal subscriptions to pay monthly for X in bitcoins.. that might be a little difficult unless they held your btc or they was prompted to send it
2578 2011-02-23 21:39:31 <knotwork> well mybitcoin and mtgox etc already do hold people's bitcoins
2579 2011-02-23 21:39:46 <BlueMatt> there is no such system atm
2580 2011-02-23 21:39:48 <knotwork> so yeah like paypal. not sure if your website gets a hit telling you the payment came in
2581 2011-02-23 21:39:51 <BlueMatt> youd have to write one yourself
2582 2011-02-23 21:39:58 <knotwork> or only gets one to tell you the subsvription was cancelled
2583 2011-02-23 21:40:08 <andrew12> ahoy
2584 2011-02-23 21:40:14 <knotwork> but basically it lets your site know who is still a paying member and who is not
2585 2011-02-23 21:40:31 * BurtyB has been planning to write one but time is against me atm
2586 2011-02-23 21:41:11 <lfm> the script to send the btc would be easy. the only hard part is checking that they have been payed for
2587 2011-02-23 21:41:13 <knotwork> I would like to mod some web based games and run them on a host that accepts bitcoins for hosting fees
2588 2011-02-23 21:41:28 <knotwork> but manually processing subscriptions would be a pain
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2592 2011-02-23 21:43:17 <lfm> knotwork: if you have user names as bitcoin "accounts" then you can check each account balance to see if it is paid up.
2593 2011-02-23 21:43:33 <luke-jr> knotwork: I agree
2594 2011-02-23 21:43:41 <luke-jr> lfm: you still have to check
2595 2011-02-23 21:43:53 <lfm> it can be automated pretty easy
2596 2011-02-23 21:43:59 <knotwork> ignore subscribing in other words, just let them forget to pay and oops their membership expires
2597 2011-02-23 21:44:13 <lfm> yup
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2599 2011-02-23 21:44:39 <knotwork> Basically I have been combining GNU games to provide different scales of play,
2600 2011-02-23 21:45:03 <knotwork> so I use Freeciv for planets and currently Crossfire RPG for individual character scale play
2601 2011-02-23 21:45:06 <luke-jr> I would pay a small fee for a website that automated subscriptions
2602 2011-02-23 21:45:31 <knotwork> but the problem is you can only run so many Freeciv servers on a cheap hosting account
2603 2011-02-23 21:45:33 <luke-jr> eg, send customers a reminder that the bill is due, and send me a reminder if they don't pay
2604 2011-02-23 21:45:52 <knotwork> so in order to be scaleable it has to include a way to pay for hosting.
2605 2011-02-23 21:45:54 <luke-jr> knotwork: I used to offer managed Freeciv hosting and got no takers at all
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2607 2011-02-23 21:46:38 <knotwork> well yeah, because normal freeciv is only a few hours game.
2608 2011-02-23 21:46:38 <knotwork> I am talking about galacticd milieu in which each planet is a whole Freeciv world
2609 2011-02-23 21:46:55 <knotwork> so instead of each planet being only similar to a freeciv city in its detail and complexity
2610 2011-02-23 21:47:17 <knotwork> each planet is a whole world. makes conquering a planet much more large scale proposition
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2612 2011-02-23 21:48:20 <knotwork> really its not good to think of the game as being freeciv, the aim is more a space RPG in which
2613 2011-02-23 21:48:37 <knotwork> the worlds have a political backdrop provided by freeciv mechanics
2614 2011-02-23 21:49:06 <knotwork> play would be more about trying to make your republican party take over the govt
2615 2011-02-23 21:49:18 <knotwork> or how to become a despot or monarch
2616 2011-02-23 21:49:43 <knotwork> because dungeon-crawler / MUD timescale tends to be about 2 real hours = 1 game day.
2617 2011-02-23 21:50:04 <knotwork> that means even a 1 year freeciv "turn" would take about a month
2618 2011-02-23 21:50:24 <knotwork> which is way slower than even the so called "long turn" freeciv campaigns that freeciv people are playing
2619 2011-02-23 21:51:23 <luke-jr> knotwork: erm, no
2620 2011-02-23 21:51:26 <knotwork> so I guess something like EVE but without (so far) the 3d client and the graphic orinetation
2621 2011-02-23 21:51:29 <luke-jr> glob2 is only a few hours
2622 2011-02-23 21:51:33 <luke-jr> freeciv is like 12+ hours
2623 2011-02-23 21:51:36 <luke-jr> which is way too long
2624 2011-02-23 21:51:51 <knotwork> long turn freeciv games are one day per freeciv turn
2625 2011-02-23 21:52:08 <luke-jr> and never work out in my experience
2626 2011-02-23 21:52:10 <knotwork> but that means you never get a day off, if you go away even for a weekend you lose a turn
2627 2011-02-23 21:52:48 <knotwork> so basically I am not focussing on "playing freeciv", rather on the system using freeciv to run the nations
2628 2011-02-23 21:53:10 <knotwork> that individual characters run around adventuring on like in "Traveller" (or maybe like "eve" even)
2629 2011-02-23 21:53:51 <knotwork> I always found in RPG people never like/bother to play barons nobles etc running estates or kingdoms etc
2630 2011-02-23 21:54:14 <knotwork> so plugging in freeciv lets the system do that crap but also creates implicit "quests" for characters
2631 2011-02-23 21:54:37 <knotwork> since anything a freeciv player could cause to happen on the strategic (freeciv) scale
2632 2011-02-23 21:54:59 <knotwork> can become a quest for a character of how their character can cause the freeciv engine to do that
2633 2011-02-23 21:55:31 <knotwork> so instead of some ghost of the nation type player who has infinite lifespan choosing to have a revolution,
2634 2011-02-23 21:55:48 <knotwork> you have the members of the various politicl parties trying to get their party into power
2635 2011-02-23 21:57:58 <knotwork> or like in "En Guarde!" you'd hold a postion in govt or use influence to cause an NPC to make something happen
2636 2011-02-23 21:57:59 <knotwork> on the nation scale
2637 2011-02-23 21:58:00 <knotwork> the freeciv scale also helps the monster economy and so on since it actually costs to build a "unit" of monsters
2638 2011-02-23 21:58:19 <knotwork> so if players kill all the monsters faster than they can be built, oops time to fly to another planet
2639 2011-02-23 21:58:23 <knotwork> with fresh batch of monsters
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2642 2011-02-23 21:58:57 <knotwork> or go into business breeding monsters and building "dungeons" for people to visit
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2646 2011-02-23 22:11:08 <luke-jr> I think I like the older BitCoin Market better -.-
2647 2011-02-23 22:11:17 <luke-jr> new one has no way to see actual offers
2648 2011-02-23 22:13:12 <lfm> you dont like mtgox?
2649 2011-02-23 22:15:49 <dsg> ~þ.
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2654 2011-02-23 22:18:57 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/79 "Full precision display and entry for JSON and GUI"
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2717 2011-02-23 22:29:17 <andrew12> there
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2720 2011-02-23 22:30:25 <andrew12> i might have been successful in putting bitcoin/master and gavinandresen/monitorreceived and jgarzik getblockbycount into one tree
2721 2011-02-23 22:30:28 <andrew12> https://github.com/andrew12/bitcoin
2722 2011-02-23 22:31:21 <Ocaasi_> where did the name mtgox come from? is that an 'official' market in any way, or just one that popped up?
2723 2011-02-23 22:31:22 <andrew12> er, nope
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2725 2011-02-23 22:32:51 <andrew12> heh
2726 2011-02-23 22:32:54 <andrew12> something was in there twice
2727 2011-02-23 22:33:20 <doublec> Ocaasi_: there's no 'official' bitcoin anything apart from the actual bitcoin client
2728 2011-02-23 22:33:38 <Ocaasi_> k, thanks.
2729 2011-02-23 22:33:39 <doublec> There's no bitcoin organisation that runs things for example
2730 2011-02-23 22:33:44 <doublec> people just start services
2731 2011-02-23 22:33:48 <doublec> mtgox being one of those
2732 2011-02-23 22:34:10 <Ocaasi_> who decided that this version of the client was good enough to be 'the version'. can that source code ever be improved by consensus?
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2737 2011-02-23 22:34:36 <doublec> Ocaasi_: There's a maintainer for the code that manages the releases
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2739 2011-02-23 22:34:45 <luke-jr_> gavinandresen: if you don't round at all, there should be floating point issuesâ¦
2740 2011-02-23 22:34:54 <knotwork> is there much impact on CPU if you use GPUs to do mining?
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2742 2011-02-23 22:35:10 <luke-jr_> knotwork: not if you use SDK 2.1
2743 2011-02-23 22:35:14 <Ocaasi_> doublec: so that person is theoretically exteremely important. do they just push new code and clients automatically update?
2744 2011-02-23 22:35:18 <doublec> Ocaasi_: much discussion goes on in the forums about improvements and additions to the code
2745 2011-02-23 22:35:21 <luke-jr_> knotwork: but, using GPU for mining makes it unusable for local display
2746 2011-02-23 22:35:29 <doublec> Ocaasi_: no, there is a github repository
2747 2011-02-23 22:35:40 <doublec> Ocaasi_: they do builds and the new clients become available for download
2748 2011-02-23 22:35:46 <doublec> Ocaasi_: people then download and run it if they choose to
2749 2011-02-23 22:35:54 bk128_ has joined
2750 2011-02-23 22:36:01 <knotwork> cool. I am thinking of plugging GPUs into game servers to generate bitcoins as resources to have in the game
2751 2011-02-23 22:36:08 <Ocaasi_> doublec: ok, and is that github 'official', so to speak?
2752 2011-02-23 22:36:08 <doublec> Ocaasi_: so if someone disagreed with a change they could choose not to use the new client
2753 2011-02-23 22:36:31 <Ocaasi_> doublec: ok, that makes sense. i'm still poking at this thing...
2754 2011-02-23 22:36:39 <doublec> Ocaasi_: it's the source repository for the official bitcoin client so yes
2755 2011-02-23 22:36:41 <knotwork> kind of instead of a simple co-op/shared GPU farm have game on top of it so one's share is determined by
2756 2011-02-23 22:36:44 <knotwork> game play
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2758 2011-02-23 22:37:09 bk128_ is now known as bk128
2759 2011-02-23 22:37:18 <Ocaasi_> doublec: so, what is the differnce, would you say, between the source repository for the official bitcoin client and a central bank?
2760 2011-02-23 22:37:33 <knotwork> dont most motherboards have on board graphic chip?
2761 2011-02-23 22:37:51 <knotwork> so plugging in a GPU would not prevent use of the plain old on board graphics ?
2762 2011-02-23 22:37:56 <sipa> Ocaasi_: the fact that we can change the course code if we wanted to? :)
2763 2011-02-23 22:38:16 <Ocaasi_> sipa: i'm still trying to sense who 'we' is there
2764 2011-02-23 22:38:20 toad_ has joined
2765 2011-02-23 22:38:33 <doublec> Ocaasi_: anyone can fork the code, make changes and run their own client
2766 2011-02-23 22:38:39 <luke-jr_> knotwork: that's a good idea
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2772 2011-02-23 22:38:55 <doublec> Ocaasi_: if a central bank fails all money is lost
2773 2011-02-23 22:39:06 <luke-jr_> Ocaasi_: there is no "official" client
2774 2011-02-23 22:39:10 <doublec> Ocaasi_: if the bitcoin repository fails everyone still has their own running client
2775 2011-02-23 22:39:11 <luke-jr_> Ocaasi_: you mean the *original* client
2776 2011-02-23 22:39:42 <luke-jr_> since anyone can fork it, or write their own implementation, these things are non-binding
2777 2011-02-23 22:40:04 <Ocaasi_> ok, i'm getting the gist, but help me resolve this: it's incredibly important that the monetary base not be artificially expanded. and it's crucial that the clients can talk to eachother and that they recognize eachother's BTCs--but the solution to the first problem is to just fork the code; doesn't that threaten the second problem?
2778 2011-02-23 22:40:08 <doublec> To write their own client they'd need to refer to the 'official' client since that client is effectively the documentation for the protocol
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2780 2011-02-23 22:40:49 <luke-jr_> Ocaasi_: there is no problem
2781 2011-02-23 22:41:02 <knotwork> also, a game *server* hardly needs a screen anyway. I only plug a screen in when I have problems
2782 2011-02-23 22:41:16 <knotwork> normally I just ssh / sftp to game server from desktop box
2783 2011-02-23 22:41:28 <sipa> Ocaasi_: you, i, everyone...
2784 2011-02-23 22:41:41 molecular has joined
2785 2011-02-23 22:41:57 <sipa> Ocaasi_: you can change the code for yourself, and depending on how you do so, you may end up with a bitcoin that's not compatible with the rest of the world
2786 2011-02-23 22:42:20 <andrew12> hm
2787 2011-02-23 22:42:24 <phantomcircuit> doublec, the protocl is documented on the wiki
2788 2011-02-23 22:42:26 <knotwork> Ocaasi_ , forks arent a big problem. I already made one in fact for a bitcoin-based game-currency
2789 2011-02-23 22:42:59 <knotwork> I simply hacked the -testnet "ifs" so in my client -testnet means my game-currency instead of the real testnet
2790 2011-02-23 22:43:03 <luke-jr_> MT`AwAy is working on a totally new wallet+client from scratch
2791 2011-02-23 22:43:06 <doublec> phantomcircuit: yes, but that was reverese engineered from the client
2792 2011-02-23 22:43:09 <knotwork> since I dont use the real testnet myself anyway
2793 2011-02-23 22:43:14 <phantomcircuit> doublec, so?
2794 2011-02-23 22:43:15 larsig_ has joined
2795 2011-02-23 22:43:18 <Ocaasi_> so is there anything to prevent the fracturing and balkanization of this currency into branches that don't recognize each-other, besides the fact that it's not in anyone's interest to do so (unless they're making a game currency, etc.)
2796 2011-02-23 22:43:29 <doublec> phantomcircuit: so that gives the client some claim to being 'official'
2797 2011-02-23 22:43:34 <luke-jr_> knotwork: erm, what do you mean by that?
2798 2011-02-23 22:43:40 dirtyfilthy has joined
2799 2011-02-23 22:43:45 <luke-jr_> knotwork: you're not using the main bitcoin network for game currency?
2800 2011-02-23 22:44:03 <knotwork> I plan to balkanise, but, initially in a game
2801 2011-02-23 22:44:15 <luke-jr_> doublec: 'reference implementation' at best
2802 2011-02-23 22:44:21 <knotwork> each nation in the game can make its own bit-currency once it gets computer technology
2803 2011-02-23 22:44:34 <luke-jr_> knotwork: erm, isn't it better to emulate that?
2804 2011-02-23 22:44:49 BCBot has joined
2805 2011-02-23 22:44:50 <luke-jr_> rather than waste CPU/GPU cycles when there's nobody to compete with
2806 2011-02-23 22:44:52 <knotwork> that way we can "play out" the balkanisation/forking scenario in game before trying it "for real"
2807 2011-02-23 22:44:57 <Ocaasi_> knotwork: is that a goal outside of games, to make this currency only work in certain regions, communities (or is it just a technical possibility)
2808 2011-02-23 22:45:15 <Ocaasi_> knotwork: what is the advantage of balkanisation, ever?
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2811 2011-02-23 22:45:32 <knotwork> Remember my planets are run by Freeciv. Thus, there is a nation known as the Hacker nation.
2812 2011-02-23 22:45:35 <sipa> would anyone benefit from such balkanisation?
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2817 2011-02-23 22:45:43 <knotwork> that Hacker nation uses REAL bitcoins :)
2818 2011-02-23 22:45:46 lolcat has joined
2819 2011-02-23 22:46:08 <knotwork> the Martians use the first game-currency based on bitcoin client
2820 2011-02-23 22:46:12 ForceMajeure is now known as Guest71301
2821 2011-02-23 22:46:28 <knotwork> other nations can then choose whether they want to try to compete with the Hacker and Martian currencies
2822 2011-02-23 22:46:29 luke-jr_ is now known as luke-jr
2823 2011-02-23 22:46:53 <knotwork> a lot of nations will probably prefer NOT to base their currency on bitcoin type system,
2824 2011-02-23 22:46:53 gribble has quit (Excess Flood)
2825 2011-02-23 22:46:54 Keefe_ is now known as Keefe
2826 2011-02-23 22:47:06 <knotwork> because they will WANT to be free to "debase" their currency!
2827 2011-02-23 22:47:06 gribble has joined
2828 2011-02-23 22:47:23 fil has joined
2829 2011-02-23 22:47:40 <Ocaasi_> oh.
2830 2011-02-23 22:47:54 <Ocaasi_> crazy martians
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2834 2011-02-23 22:48:34 <knotwork> Yes the Martians do seem to be crazy, since they seem to believe in a mythical pie in the sky planet
2835 2011-02-23 22:48:38 <BlueMatt> how much work would have to be done to get bitcoin to work on wx 2.9.1?
2836 2011-02-23 22:48:54 <knotwork> where all nations of humans all live(d) on one planet! an obviously impossible idea, they would
2837 2011-02-23 22:49:19 <knotwork> destroy the planet! the planet, known as "Earth", is merely a myth on which nations base their national concept
2838 2011-02-23 22:49:38 <knotwork> of themselves, with tales of how on Earth they interacted with the other nations
2839 2011-02-23 22:49:40 <Ocaasi_> Any idea what % of bit coins are currently being used in gaming vs. RL
2840 2011-02-23 22:50:35 Jeroenz0r has joined
2841 2011-02-23 22:51:02 <luke-jr> most probably aren't in circulation at all
2842 2011-02-23 22:51:04 noagendamarket has joined
2843 2011-02-23 22:51:22 <knotwork> The Hacker nation uses "real" bitcoins because if anyone has tech sufficiently advanced to actually
2844 2011-02-23 22:51:39 <knotwork> contact Earth or if necessary create such a place as Earth is would be them
2845 2011-02-23 22:52:08 <theymos> I just read on the wiki that MyBitcoin accepts payments after 1 confirmation. So anyone who can create two blocks in a row can get unlimited money from MyBitcoin...
2846 2011-02-23 22:52:49 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2847 2011-02-23 22:52:54 <BlueMatt> theymos: no
2848 2011-02-23 22:52:58 <Ocaasi_> where did the million dollars come from? was it really mostly just people purchasing it in small 'blocks', or was there seed investment?
2849 2011-02-23 22:53:20 <Ocaasi_> or has that value just been created as the BTC spread?
2850 2011-02-23 22:53:32 <BlueMatt> theymos: each block is checked
2851 2011-02-23 22:53:36 TD has joined
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2853 2011-02-23 22:54:24 <theymos> BlueMatt: Checked for what, and by who?
2854 2011-02-23 22:54:54 <BlueMatt> theymos: checked that they aren't double spending, valid blocks, etc. By every client
2855 2011-02-23 22:55:03 <BlueMatt> when you dl the block chain, you are also checking it
2856 2011-02-23 22:55:07 20QAATMLY is now known as Blitzboom
2857 2011-02-23 22:55:14 <BlueMatt> making sure no one is cheating, and if someone is its just ignored
2858 2011-02-23 22:56:04 <luke-jr> Ocaasi_: thin air
2859 2011-02-23 22:56:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you're missing the point
2860 2011-02-23 22:56:18 <theymos> BlueMatt: I know how Bitcoin works... MyBitcoin accepts a transaction after just 1 confirmation. I send them a valid transaction, and it gets 1 block deep. Then I withdraw the coins. Then I generate two blocks that don't have my original transaction in it. The transaction no longer exists, and I get both the withdrawal and my original coins.
2861 2011-02-23 22:57:33 <BlueMatt> no you dont, you make two blocks that dont have the original tx, and all of a sudden you dont have the money from the original tx
2862 2011-02-23 22:57:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that assumes MyBitcoin uses those same coins
2863 2011-02-23 22:57:46 <BlueMatt> ie no double spending
2864 2011-02-23 22:57:51 <luke-jr> which it won't probably
2865 2011-02-23 22:57:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that is true
2866 2011-02-23 22:58:00 <BlueMatt> ish
2867 2011-02-23 22:58:03 <BlueMatt> no, wait
2868 2011-02-23 22:58:08 <luke-jr> IIRC, the original client at least prefers older coins
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2871 2011-02-23 22:58:50 <BlueMatt> if you withdraw from mybitcoin, then change the blocks so the original tx no longer exists (which you cant really do unless you have 50 % of the network) then mybitcoin would still realize it already sent you coins
2872 2011-02-23 22:58:57 <Ocaasi_> luke-jr: so it's obviously a great medium of exchange (online at least), but as for being a store of value, does every client, every node in the network have a record of all past transactions (or all current holdings) so that I could 'take my money with me anywhere just be having my account password and address?
2873 2011-02-23 22:58:58 <BlueMatt> AFAIK mybitcoin uses a web front-end
2874 2011-02-23 22:59:12 <BlueMatt> not a direct rpc to your own private instance of bitcoind
2875 2011-02-23 22:59:15 <BlueMatt> so, no
2876 2011-02-23 22:59:50 <BlueMatt> you can only double spend if you have over 50% of the network's hashing power, and if you already have what you spent on (as the coins spent would also dissapear)
2877 2011-02-23 23:00:03 <quellhorst> is there any example ruby/rails code on accepting bitcoin payments online?
2878 2011-02-23 23:00:06 <quellhorst> or sending payments
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2880 2011-02-23 23:01:16 <BlueMatt> theymos: the only way to double spend anything is if you have >50% of the network's hashing power
2881 2011-02-23 23:01:33 <luke-jr> Ocaasi_: yes to the technical parts; but no, there is no account password
2882 2011-02-23 23:02:15 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2883 2011-02-23 23:02:25 <theymos> BlueMatt: That's only if you use 6 confirmations. That's why transactions are called "confirmed" at that point. But MyBitcoin accepts transactions at 1 confirmation. MyBitcoin wouldn't see the double-spend until they'd already signed the transaction. By then it's too late. They might send you back coins that you invalidate through your attack, but this is unlikely.
2884 2011-02-23 23:02:27 <BlueMatt> Ocaasi_: there is an account private key stored in your wallet.dat
2885 2011-02-23 23:02:32 <BlueMatt> which you can take anywhere
2886 2011-02-23 23:02:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: creating 2 competing blocks would take a good GPU and good chance, but it can be done
2887 2011-02-23 23:02:54 kermit has joined
2888 2011-02-23 23:02:56 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I never denied that it couldnt be
2889 2011-02-23 23:02:59 <quellhorst> theymos: why do they only do it after 1 confirmation?
2890 2011-02-23 23:03:02 Lube has joined
2891 2011-02-23 23:03:16 <theymos> quellhorst: I don't know. It's insecure. That's why I mentioned it.
2892 2011-02-23 23:03:20 <BlueMatt> theymos: I dont understand how you think this will work, but it wont
2893 2011-02-23 23:03:28 <gwillen> the 6 confirmations thing is just a loose rule of thumb
2894 2011-02-23 23:03:30 <BlueMatt> could you explain exactly what you think would make this work?
2895 2011-02-23 23:03:34 <gwillen> it is not required to make things secure
2896 2011-02-23 23:03:42 <gwillen> it just makes them more secure than they would be otherwise
2897 2011-02-23 23:03:45 <Ocaasi_> ok, thanks matt. how do i move that key if I change computers or countries. do i just write it down? or does secondary software manage it? basically, if someone has my private key, is there any prevention from them taking all of my BTCs?
2898 2011-02-23 23:04:02 <sipa> no
2899 2011-02-23 23:04:07 <luke-jr> Ocaasi_: copy wallet.dat
2900 2011-02-23 23:04:13 <BlueMatt> Ocaasi_: if they have your key, you are SOL, but just copy the wallet.dat file
2901 2011-02-23 23:04:26 <sipa> access to wallet == access to all funds associated with it
2902 2011-02-23 23:04:28 <theymos> gwillen: It's not a loose rule of thumb. It's calculated to be the number of confirmations beyond which waiting would have no point. An attacker who can reverse a transaction with more than 6 confirmations has >50% of the network. Transactions with fewer confirmations can be reversed with a smaller percentage of the network.
2903 2011-02-23 23:04:40 <gwillen> theymos: can you show me where this is calculated?
2904 2011-02-23 23:04:47 <theymos> gwillen: It's in the Bitcoin paper.
2905 2011-02-23 23:04:49 <Blitzboom> access to wallet == access to all funds associated with all keys in it
2906 2011-02-23 23:04:53 <BlueMatt> theymos: not at all true
2907 2011-02-23 23:04:53 <Blitzboom> fixed that for you
2908 2011-02-23 23:05:09 sabalaba has joined
2909 2011-02-23 23:05:14 <theymos> BlueMatt: I explained it before. You can create two blocks in a row without nearly 50% of the network. If you do this, you can erase any transaction from history, allowing you to double-spend. Read the Paper.
2910 2011-02-23 23:05:19 <BlueMatt> theymos: its probability, I could make 200 blocks in the next second on my cpu
2911 2011-02-23 23:05:33 <BlueMatt> no you wont delete the txes from history
2912 2011-02-23 23:05:43 <theymos> You will. Not in a block = not exist.
2913 2011-02-23 23:05:48 <BlueMatt> they go back into the pool, and other miners will pick them up
2914 2011-02-23 23:05:54 <BlueMatt> theymos: wrong
2915 2011-02-23 23:06:06 <theymos> They will be invalid, since a conflicting transaction is in a block.
2916 2011-02-23 23:06:06 <Ocaasi_> So, for a hacker, isn't that key exctremely desirable, and for a BTC holder, extremely vulnerable. What protection does that file wallet.dat have? Or could is there a way to 'report my BTCs stolen' that the network could prevent transactions with...
2917 2011-02-23 23:06:17 <BlueMatt> theymos: yes if there is a conflicting tx, yes
2918 2011-02-23 23:06:43 <sipa> with any % of the network, there is a possibility of reverting any length of the chain, but the chance becomes astronomically small
2919 2011-02-23 23:06:45 devon_hillard_ has left ("Leaving")
2920 2011-02-23 23:06:45 <gwillen> theymos: please point me to the place in the paper where it says what you're asserting.
2921 2011-02-23 23:06:59 <gwillen> theymos: I see lots of tables of probabilities versus number of blocks you wait
2922 2011-02-23 23:07:02 RichardG has joined
2923 2011-02-23 23:07:05 <sipa> as soon as you have >50%, you can revert any length with reasonable chance
2924 2011-02-23 23:07:10 <BlueMatt> But if mybitcoin txes to you, and then you delete the block by creating a new one. Mybitcoin will still have the moeny marked as withdrawn
2925 2011-02-23 23:07:22 <gwillen> theymos: but even if the attacker has <50%, you can trade off probability for speed by adjusting how many blocks you wait for
2926 2011-02-23 23:07:27 RG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2927 2011-02-23 23:07:29 <BlueMatt> bc mybitcoin isnt a wallet in the traditional sense, its a web frontend with its own databse
2928 2011-02-23 23:07:30 <gwillen> theymos: according to the tables on page 8
2929 2011-02-23 23:07:31 <BlueMatt> databse*
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2932 2011-02-23 23:08:10 devon_hillard has joined
2933 2011-02-23 23:08:42 <sipa> Ocaasi_: there is no way to report a btc as stolen
2934 2011-02-23 23:08:43 <theymos> BlueMatt: They'll have the money marked as withdrawn, but they won't have the money. You took it back with the double-spend.
2935 2011-02-23 23:08:49 <BlueMatt> So, theymos, what you are saying is 1. give btc to mybitcoin. 2. withdraw from my bitcoin, 3. overwrite the withdraw tx with a new block, 4. get another withdraw
2936 2011-02-23 23:09:09 <BlueMatt> bc that doesnt work at all
2937 2011-02-23 23:09:09 <gwillen> BlueMatt: no, you overwrite the 'give' tx with a new block
2938 2011-02-23 23:09:13 <sipa> and currently the built-in protections in the client for the wallet are too weak, i think
2939 2011-02-23 23:09:19 <gwillen> BlueMatt: thus taking back the btc and also having the btc they gave you
2940 2011-02-23 23:09:22 <sipa> it should do encryption and create backups
2941 2011-02-23 23:09:23 <BlueMatt> but then you wont have the withdraw
2942 2011-02-23 23:09:34 <theymos> gwillen: We are in agreement.
2943 2011-02-23 23:09:36 <BlueMatt> ok ill give you that one
2944 2011-02-23 23:09:39 <Ocaasi_> sipa: i'm curious about this technology expanding. but if you had a million dollars worth of BTCs, would you feel like it was 'safe'?
2945 2011-02-23 23:09:50 <BlueMatt> then, yes they would be susceptible
2946 2011-02-23 23:09:54 <BlueMatt> however, it wouldnt work irl
2947 2011-02-23 23:09:56 <gwillen> theymos: we are in agreement about how the attack is performed, but I assert that the fact that they only wait one block does not make it feasible
2948 2011-02-23 23:10:06 <sipa> Ocaasi_: i sure as hell would be making sure i do whatever necessary to protect my wallet.dat in that case
2949 2011-02-23 23:10:30 <BlueMatt> because you would have to create two blocks to overwrite the give block
2950 2011-02-23 23:10:45 <BlueMatt> that means no one else can create a block before you get your withdraw
2951 2011-02-23 23:10:48 <gwillen> theymos: according to the tables in the paper, you would need 10% of the network's CPU to have a 20% chance of catching up after one block
2952 2011-02-23 23:10:54 <BlueMatt> (or you have to create 3 or more)
2953 2011-02-23 23:11:05 <BlueMatt> and you have to create 2 in a row directly thereafter
2954 2011-02-23 23:11:11 <gwillen> theymos: which might be feasible; I don't know how much CPU various players have access to
2955 2011-02-23 23:11:12 <theymos> gwillen: Trying is free. If you withdraw without the double-spend, then you lose nothing. So just keep doing it until you get lucky.
2956 2011-02-23 23:11:16 <gwillen> sure
2957 2011-02-23 23:11:31 <gwillen> but if you have less than a percent or two of the network's resources it's probably not worth bothering to try
2958 2011-02-23 23:11:39 <sipa> gwillen: the biggest player probably has around 10%
2959 2011-02-23 23:11:52 <gwillen> sipa: then yeah, they could probably pull this attack off
2960 2011-02-23 23:11:57 <theymos> gwillen: Sure it is. I've generated two blocks in a row with less than 1%.
2961 2011-02-23 23:11:58 <gwillen> I doubt it would work more than once, though
2962 2011-02-23 23:12:07 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,stats
2963 2011-02-23 23:12:07 <gwillen> theymos: interesting
2964 2011-02-23 23:12:10 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110026 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 853 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 5 hours, 38 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 51294.65854532
2965 2011-02-23 23:12:11 <sipa> slush's pool has even more, actually
2966 2011-02-23 23:12:21 <Ocaasi_> sipa: I think the problem, or the reality I'm seeing is that people wouldn't feel safe under those circumstances, so they would need their accounts to be centrally held, and insured, like, by a bank. And in return for holding and insuring your BTCs, the bank would lend money, causing inflation, busts, booms,... and it starts to sound very similar.
2967 2011-02-23 23:12:22 <BlueMatt> slush could pull it off
2968 2011-02-23 23:12:51 <BlueMatt> who runs mybitcoin?
2969 2011-02-23 23:12:53 <gwillen> it would only work once though, and only against mybitcoin
2970 2011-02-23 23:12:58 <sipa> Ocaasi_: there are some differences, but you are partially right
2971 2011-02-23 23:13:27 <sipa> Ocaasi_: i think online services holding wallets and doins transactions is the long-term future for bitcoin (if it survives long enough)
2972 2011-02-23 23:13:37 <gwillen> although I'm surprised; the numbers in the table on page 8 of the paper suggest that waiting 6 blocks may not be long enough
2973 2011-02-23 23:13:41 <theymos> gwillen: Why only once? If you have, say, 10% of the network, you can clean out MyBitcoin overnight.
2974 2011-02-23 23:13:55 <gwillen> theymos: well, I'm assuming you'd get caught relatively quickly
2975 2011-02-23 23:14:01 <ArtForz> becuase it'd be obvious as hell
2976 2011-02-23 23:14:05 <gwillen> theymos: I don't know what sort of checks the client software has for its transactions getting reversed
2977 2011-02-23 23:14:14 <BlueMatt> and mybitcoin would disconnect you
2978 2011-02-23 23:14:15 <gwillen> theymos: but if it saw that, it would be well-advised to stop performing transactions
2979 2011-02-23 23:14:16 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2980 2011-02-23 23:14:19 <theymos> gwillen: It has none. They just go 0/unconfirmed.
2981 2011-02-23 23:14:25 <Ocaasi_> sipa: do you know of any writing from the forward-looking tech side, or austrian money side about these aspects, conceiving of how bitcoin would scale, and compare to central-bank backed fiat currencies?
2982 2011-02-23 23:14:25 <gwillen> hmm, that is bad
2983 2011-02-23 23:14:28 <theymos> I don't think they'd notice for a while.
2984 2011-02-23 23:14:33 <ArtForz> to make this work you need to get one TX into a block, and then pretty much imemdiately throw out 2 blocks where one replaces that other tx
2985 2011-02-23 23:14:35 <gwillen> the software should really object loudly if a transaction gets reversed under it
2986 2011-02-23 23:14:36 Blitzboom has joined
2987 2011-02-23 23:14:37 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
2988 2011-02-23 23:14:37 Blitzboom has joined
2989 2011-02-23 23:14:46 <ArtForz> and people ARE watching for that
2990 2011-02-23 23:14:46 <phantomcircuit> downloading all of the blocks from the p2p network is slow as shit
2991 2011-02-23 23:14:46 <andrew12> http://pastie.org/1600099
2992 2011-02-23 23:14:51 <sipa> Ocaasi_: and yes, it is possible that a bank service puts more btc's in their users' accounts as they actually have, creating an inflated currency on top of it
2993 2011-02-23 23:15:12 <andrew12> just went through the commit log and made git tags for all the releases (at least, the ones that looked like they were the releases)
2994 2011-02-23 23:15:30 <andrew12> now all i need is commit to bitcoin/bitcoin :3
2995 2011-02-23 23:15:30 <theymos> ArtForz: People might be watching for it, but that doesn't stop you from stealing lots of money from MyBitcoin right now.
2996 2011-02-23 23:15:48 <gwillen> sipa, Ocaasi_: There are papers on what economists think would happen to reserve ratios in a "libertarian banking" environment where they were not regulated
2997 2011-02-23 23:15:56 <gwillen> might be an interesting read if you can find them; I'll look in a minute
2998 2011-02-23 23:15:58 <Ocaasi_> sipa: that last part I didn't understand. i figured a bank couldn't credit you with bitcoins you didn't have without taking them directly from someone else, thus double-booking?
2999 2011-02-23 23:16:08 <phantomcircuit> is there any reason we cant have a block mirror on faster servers?
3000 2011-02-23 23:16:18 <Ocaasi_> gwillen: thanks, that's just what i'm after. you know, rothbard, but without the gold
3001 2011-02-23 23:16:20 <ArtForz> phantomcircuit: wouldnt help much
3002 2011-02-23 23:16:25 <sipa> Ocaasi_: banks don't conjure dollar bills either
3003 2011-02-23 23:16:30 <ArtForz> the downloading itself isnt really the slow part
3004 2011-02-23 23:16:33 <sipa> but they do conjure up numbers on bank accounts
3005 2011-02-23 23:16:46 <ArtForz> even on lan it takes >15min
3006 2011-02-23 23:16:53 <gwillen> Ocaasi_: if you think about how mybitcoin works, they just give you a number; there are no actual bitcoins that are "yours" until you send them seomwhere
3007 2011-02-23 23:17:05 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, ah, why's it so slow? verifying each block?
3008 2011-02-23 23:17:09 <gwillen> Ocaasi_: before that they are just a number on a status page, and they can inflate those numbers freely as long as nobody tries to take all out at once
3009 2011-02-23 23:17:10 <sipa> Ocaasi_: imagine if almost everyone used mybitcoins
3010 2011-02-23 23:17:12 <ArtForz> verifying every transaction
3011 2011-02-23 23:17:20 <phantomcircuit> ah
3012 2011-02-23 23:17:20 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: only on slow machines
3013 2011-02-23 23:17:22 <sipa> most people would just do transaction between mybitcoin and mybitcoin
3014 2011-02-23 23:17:34 <BlueMatt> when I first started, it took me a while to dl, because I didnt have nearly any connected nodes
3015 2011-02-23 23:17:40 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, hmm so in the future this could be a pretty serious problem, i mean there aren't that many transactions right now
3016 2011-02-23 23:17:41 <sipa> Ocaasi_: which is really just numbers in their database that get swapped
3017 2011-02-23 23:17:56 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: if you consider a A2-X2 6000+ slow, then yes...
3018 2011-02-23 23:18:05 <sipa> Ocaasi_: so, they could start putting higher numbers there than what thet actually have
3019 2011-02-23 23:18:16 <sipa> Ocaasi_: as people don't withdraw all their btc's at once
3020 2011-02-23 23:18:29 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: well fine, on average hardware its cpu bound, but on high end (many people here) its network bound
3021 2011-02-23 23:18:35 <quellhorst> i wonder if anyone is mining but not selling any coins?
3022 2011-02-23 23:18:41 <quellhorst> as speculation of future value
3023 2011-02-23 23:18:42 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: remember that the first dl occurs when you have hardly any peers
3024 2011-02-23 23:18:46 <Blitzboom> quellhorst: i am
3025 2011-02-23 23:18:47 <Ocaasi_> ok, i didn't understand mybitcoin's role. wouldn't it be more robust if my bitcoin actually had to 'account' for their BTCs at all times. That was the dream of Rothbard at least, that there would be frequent bank runs to stop excessive lending. Well, with this system, 'bank runs' could be constantly or at least periodically checked.
3026 2011-02-23 23:18:53 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: most people are
3027 2011-02-23 23:18:56 <quellhorst> Blitzboom: how many cards do you have running?
3028 2011-02-23 23:18:59 <Blitzboom> one 5870
3029 2011-02-23 23:19:01 <phantomcircuit> quellhorst, well given the daily volume on mtgox is about 5k BTC and there are roughly 5 million BTC in existence.... yeah id say so
3030 2011-02-23 23:19:01 <Blitzboom> thatâs all
3031 2011-02-23 23:19:07 <sipa> Ocaasi_: that's up to the users of the site
3032 2011-02-23 23:19:12 <ArtForz> again, with a single peer via GigE it still takes >15 min
3033 2011-02-23 23:19:20 <lolcat> Mybitcoin offers loans?
3034 2011-02-23 23:19:24 <sipa> lolcat: no
3035 2011-02-23 23:19:35 <Ocaasi_> not yet...
3036 2011-02-23 23:19:37 <lolcat> Intrests?
3037 2011-02-23 23:19:39 <sipa> so currently there is no incentive to increase their money amount
3038 2011-02-23 23:19:43 <Blitzboom> btw: i would rather invest my bitcoins in the bitcoin community than hoard it
3039 2011-02-23 23:19:44 <quellhorst> lolcat: any relation to lawlcat ?
3040 2011-02-23 23:19:54 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: wait you have GigE to peers??? Damn where did you get Internet like that
3041 2011-02-23 23:19:59 phantomcircuit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3042 2011-02-23 23:20:14 <lolcat> quellhorst: Not that I know of. I go by lolcat, lolbat, user, telcat and some others.
3043 2011-02-23 23:20:18 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: lern2raed ?
3044 2011-02-23 23:20:47 <lolcat> BlueMatt: I ran bitcoind in GigE
3045 2011-02-23 23:20:49 <quellhorst> man, how many confirmations will transactions get?
3046 2011-02-23 23:20:52 <ArtForz> <ArtForz> even on lan it takes >15min
3047 2011-02-23 23:20:59 <quellhorst> something from yesterday is at 274 alreday
3048 2011-02-23 23:21:03 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: missed that comment
3049 2011-02-23 23:21:49 <ArtForz> spends most of the time in OSSL ECDSA routines
3050 2011-02-23 23:21:54 <quellhorst> i wonder if the creators of bitcoins have a large horde of coins
3051 2011-02-23 23:22:09 <quellhorst> since they could start when the difficultly level was tiny
3052 2011-02-23 23:22:12 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: there are rumors satoshi has a TON
3053 2011-02-23 23:22:20 <BlueMatt> like 1million+
3054 2011-02-23 23:22:23 <quellhorst> haha
3055 2011-02-23 23:22:52 <quellhorst> probably
3056 2011-02-23 23:22:57 <theymos> Last time I checked, more than half of all generations were unspent, mostly in the first 60,000 blocks.
3057 2011-02-23 23:23:08 <ArtForz> yea
3058 2011-02-23 23:23:56 <quellhorst> so are currently any of the hashes being solved comercially useful?
3059 2011-02-23 23:24:25 <theymos> They're only valuable to Bitcoin.
3060 2011-02-23 23:24:27 <ArtForz> yes, as they provide security to the block chain ;)
3061 2011-02-23 23:24:37 <sipa> quellhorst: +infinity
3062 2011-02-23 23:24:53 <sipa> 0:13:12 < quellhorst> man, how many confirmations will transactions get?
3063 2011-02-23 23:25:25 <ArtForz> possibly infinite, at a rate of 6/h on average ;)
3064 2011-02-23 23:25:40 <theymos> My oldest transaction has 71,275 confirmations.
3065 2011-02-23 23:26:06 <Blitzboom> >more than half of all generations were unspent
3066 2011-02-23 23:26:08 <Blitzboom> holy shit!
3067 2011-02-23 23:26:10 <ArtForz> 42255 here
3068 2011-02-23 23:26:41 20QAATNCJ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
3069 2011-02-23 23:27:33 yawniek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3070 2011-02-23 23:28:21 <gwillen> Ocaasi_: I think this is where I got all the references I saw about bank competition on reserve ratios: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking
3071 2011-02-23 23:28:27 <gwillen> there are references at the end
3072 2011-02-23 23:28:54 <Ocaasi_> gwillen: thanks, trusty pedia.
3073 2011-02-23 23:29:24 <gwillen> heh np :-)
3074 2011-02-23 23:31:18 Lube has quit ()
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3076 2011-02-23 23:38:17 <quellhorst> is there any idea how much $ in bitcoins have been cashed out?
3077 2011-02-23 23:38:40 <BlueMatt> look at the mtgox volume
3078 2011-02-23 23:38:46 <BlueMatt> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#tgSzbgBzm1g10zm2g25zi1gVolzi2gMACD
3079 2011-02-23 23:39:15 <luke-jr> quellhorst: to be reliable, you'd need to find out how much of that $ was later used to buy it back
3080 2011-02-23 23:39:35 <quellhorst> lets assume that none of that $ was spent to buy it back
3081 2011-02-23 23:39:39 <BlueMatt> plus there are other exchanges, and some non public volume
3082 2011-02-23 23:39:56 <quellhorst> true, i have seen people here trying to do semi private transactions
3083 2011-02-23 23:39:57 <BlueMatt> mtgox alone has 6M volume total
3084 2011-02-23 23:40:16 <quellhorst> i guess another factor is current value vs historic value
3085 2011-02-23 23:40:17 <BlueMatt> thats the purpose of #bitcoin-otc
3086 2011-02-23 23:40:19 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: all dollars ever traded?
3087 2011-02-23 23:40:28 <BlueMatt> on mtgox
3088 2011-02-23 23:40:30 <BlueMatt> total of all trades
3089 2011-02-23 23:40:33 <Blitzboom> yeah
3090 2011-02-23 23:40:34 <BlueMatt> which really means nothing
3091 2011-02-23 23:40:41 <BlueMatt> but volatility
3092 2011-02-23 23:40:50 <Blitzboom> not much volume atm
3093 2011-02-23 23:40:58 <Blitzboom> people are waiting to sell i guess
3094 2011-02-23 23:40:58 <BlueMatt> not really
3095 2011-02-23 23:41:03 <BlueMatt> yea
3096 2011-02-23 23:41:14 <BlueMatt> slow rise back up towards parity
3097 2011-02-23 23:41:27 <Blitzboom> and then down again? hm
3098 2011-02-23 23:41:43 <BlueMatt> in the past couple days, just up
3099 2011-02-23 23:41:45 <quellhorst> if bailing out the banks piss people off enough, may as well print up billions in the usa to give away like this guy did
3100 2011-02-23 23:41:48 <quellhorst> http://news.uk.msn.com/world/news-articles.aspx?cp-documentid=156221007
3101 2011-02-23 23:41:49 <BlueMatt> if you ignore volatility
3102 2011-02-23 23:41:54 <Blitzboom> haha, iâm just reading an article about inflation
3103 2011-02-23 23:42:07 <Blitzboom> people fear euroâs inflation
3104 2011-02-23 23:42:29 <quellhorst> you guys think euro and $ will hit parity again?
3105 2011-02-23 23:42:37 <BlueMatt> yea the whole greece, italy, portugal, etc thing is scary
3106 2011-02-23 23:42:46 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: dont go that far
3107 2011-02-23 23:42:50 phantomcircuit has joined
3108 2011-02-23 23:42:54 <Blitzboom> i hope both dollar and euro get fucked
3109 2011-02-23 23:43:13 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: I thought you were german, hence you would want the usd to get fucked, not the eur
3110 2011-02-23 23:43:18 <quellhorst> where is the chart of bitcoins that will be put into circulation?
3111 2011-02-23 23:43:21 <BlueMatt> and remember bitcoin is pretty much tied to usd
3112 2011-02-23 23:43:27 <Blitzboom> hmm
3113 2011-02-23 23:43:34 <quellhorst> BlueMatt: isn't that by accident?
3114 2011-02-23 23:43:34 <Blitzboom> yeah, that may be true
3115 2011-02-23 23:43:36 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
3116 2011-02-23 23:43:49 <BlueMatt> quellhorst: what by accident?
3117 2011-02-23 23:44:02 <quellhorst> bitcoin/usd parity
3118 2011-02-23 23:44:21 <BlueMatt> not really
3119 2011-02-23 23:44:27 <BlueMatt> its an important phycological barrier
3120 2011-02-23 23:44:40 <Blitzboom> yep
3121 2011-02-23 23:44:42 <BlueMatt> and the fact that most people exchange btc for usd means its loosley tied to it
3122 2011-02-23 23:44:44 <BlueMatt> if not at parity
3123 2011-02-23 23:44:50 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3124 2011-02-23 23:45:02 <BlueMatt> ie if usd inflates like crazy, Id bet bitcoin wouldnt change price dramatically
3125 2011-02-23 23:45:31 molecular has joined
3126 2011-02-23 23:45:46 <quellhorst> i wonder if thats partly because hardware is in $
3127 2011-02-23 23:46:00 <quellhorst> and also because there has been some speculation that usd is oil backed
3128 2011-02-23 23:46:13 <quellhorst> oil = cost of energy?
3129 2011-02-23 23:46:23 yannick has joined
3130 2011-02-23 23:46:41 yannick is now known as yawniek
3131 2011-02-23 23:46:48 <theymos> When should blockexplorer.com/testnet switch to the 0.3.20 testnet? Is anyone still using the old version? Is there any debate about whether the new testnet is good?
3132 2011-02-23 23:47:01 <quellhorst> also, funny that the # of bitcoins is capped. so that satoshi could keep his horde from being inflated away
3133 2011-02-23 23:47:14 <BlueMatt> theymos: it should switch
3134 2011-02-23 23:47:24 <BlueMatt> faucet already has
3135 2011-02-23 23:47:38 <BlueMatt> and there is no diff on the new testnet, except for the first block
3136 2011-02-23 23:47:47 <theymos> The Faucet is run by Gavin, who made the switch. There might be some debate in the community yet.
3137 2011-02-23 23:48:01 <BlueMatt> there is no diff on the new testnet
3138 2011-02-23 23:48:17 <theymos> All transactions were wiped out. Pretty big difference if you ask me.
3139 2011-02-23 23:48:24 <BlueMatt> so, its testnet
3140 2011-02-23 23:48:31 <BlueMatt> thats the point is its to test, not to hold coins
3141 2011-02-23 23:48:54 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/98ba262a48b66cae8478525e809898512e997948
3142 2011-02-23 23:49:00 <BlueMatt> testnet was reset by davout
3143 2011-02-23 23:49:15 <BlueMatt> though with gavin, and other people's agreement
3144 2011-02-23 23:49:34 <theymos> People have been trading testnet coins, so some people might be upset.
3145 2011-02-23 23:49:46 <BlueMatt> theymos: then ask on -otc
3146 2011-02-23 23:49:58 <ArtForz> well, they can still keep a old wallet and client around to look at them
3147 2011-02-23 23:50:38 <BlueMatt> AFAIK no one has complained
3148 2011-02-23 23:51:37 molecular has quit (zapp!~molecular@188-192-48-103-dynip.superkabel.de|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3149 2011-02-23 23:51:51 <BlueMatt> theymos: are you going to switch it over?
3150 2011-02-23 23:52:01 <BlueMatt> also, the advantage of the new one, is its difficulty is much loser
3151 2011-02-23 23:52:03 <BlueMatt> lower*
3152 2011-02-23 23:52:07 <theymos> That'll change.
3153 2011-02-23 23:52:16 <sipa> that's the reason the switch was made
3154 2011-02-23 23:52:17 <BlueMatt> meaning people who want to test, can do so easily without large investment
3155 2011-02-23 23:52:44 gasteve_ has joined
3156 2011-02-23 23:54:22 <theymos> If there is no debate, I'll switch once I get around to looking at all the changes after 0.3.19.
3157 2011-02-23 23:54:48 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
3158 2011-02-23 23:55:14 <BlueMatt> Well Ill ask on -otc, but I dont think anyone cares, atleast not that ive heard
3159 2011-02-23 23:55:44 <theymos> ArtForz: Are you running 0.3.20? Do you disagree with any of the code changes?
3160 2011-02-23 23:56:50 <[Tycho]> How can i know if generated block was really confirmed after 120 or not ? Without using GUI.
3161 2011-02-23 23:57:21 <ArtForz> main node is running 0.3.20, miner node still on 0.3.18
3162 2011-02-23 23:57:36 <xelister> theymos: yes they are :<
3163 2011-02-23 23:57:38 <sipa> [Tycho]: getbalance call?
3164 2011-02-23 23:57:48 <xelister> theymos: but nah, that was for symbolic value lol
3165 2011-02-23 23:57:50 molecular has joined
3166 2011-02-23 23:57:53 <ArtForz> too lazy to port my miner host code currently
3167 2011-02-23 23:58:02 <[Tycho]> sipa, that way i can't find out which one was confirmed.
3168 2011-02-23 23:58:14 <theymos> ArtForz: Are you still running without IsStandard?
3169 2011-02-23 23:58:14 <sipa> [Tycho]: the oldest one :p
3170 2011-02-23 23:58:36 <[Tycho]> sipa, no, i want to know exactly which one is confirmed :(
3171 2011-02-23 23:58:37 <ArtForz> nope
3172 2011-02-23 23:58:48 <BlueMatt> There are no major changes which effect users in 0.3.20
3173 2011-02-23 23:58:59 <ArtForz> well, my miner still is, but as it's not reachable from the outside and has a isStandard() node in front of it..
3174 2011-02-23 23:59:00 <sipa> affect, you mean?
3175 2011-02-23 23:59:07 <BlueMatt> really all thats changed is dos prevention and testnet
3176 2011-02-23 23:59:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: excuse me, yes affect
3177 2011-02-23 23:59:27 * BlueMatt mumbles something about sipa being a grammar nazi