1 2011-02-26 00:00:04 <ItsDaFeds> midnightmagic & comboy not in agreement d'oh
2 2011-02-26 00:00:17 <midnightmagic> xelister: i don't screen-switch in X unless X is misbehaving. why are you switching to textmode to run an opengl game?
3 2011-02-26 00:00:28 <midnightmagic> ItsDaFeds: I'm not disagreeing with cowboy. He's right also.
4 2011-02-26 00:00:44 <xelister> midnightmagic: switchin to -F1 text is optionall actually. But switching between X consoles does the hang as well.
5 2011-02-26 00:01:00 <luke-jr> I don't switch displays anymore.
6 2011-02-26 00:01:03 <xelister> X virtual terminals servers
7 2011-02-26 00:01:06 <ItsDaFeds> k thanks
8 2011-02-26 00:01:11 <luke-jr> if I want to use my Radeon, I use VNC :p
9 2011-02-26 00:01:12 <midnightmagic> xelister: X consoles? why don't you just run another xterm and run the opengl game from there?
10 2011-02-26 00:01:34 <omglolbbq> how do i send bitcoins without paying fee?
11 2011-02-26 00:01:35 <midnightmagic> xelister: is this while you're mining?
12 2011-02-26 00:01:40 <xelister> midnightmagic: because I want to, and Ati should not brake functioanllity that worked in linux since 20 years
13 2011-02-26 00:01:48 <luke-jr> omglolbbq: send a different amount
14 2011-02-26 00:01:52 <xelister> midnightmagic: while not mining. mining is not a factor
15 2011-02-26 00:02:15 <omglolbbq> luke-jr, i know, but the fee isnt enforced by the network right? so i should be able to send it normal somehow i think
16 2011-02-26 00:02:17 <xelister> midnightmagic: also, because Ubuntu doesnt have sound if you do sux another_user
17 2011-02-26 00:02:39 <luke-jr> omglolbbq: it might take years to send
18 2011-02-26 00:02:42 <xelister> midnightmagic: it took ~5 hours to work around this, to be able to run program as another user WITH both sound and X access
19 2011-02-26 00:02:54 alystair has joined
20 2011-02-26 00:03:02 <luke-jr> xelister: ssh -Y another_user@localhost
21 2011-02-26 00:03:20 <xelister> luke-jr: then you do not have audio. And it is ssh -X. and better just do sux or sudo sux
22 2011-02-26 00:03:26 <omglolbbq> then we need an option to merge and extract btc from a wallet :)
23 2011-02-26 00:03:34 <luke-jr> xelister: of course you have audio
24 2011-02-26 00:03:40 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt
25 2011-02-26 00:03:45 <phantomcircuit> if anybody is interested
26 2011-02-26 00:03:53 <xelister> luke-jr: you do NOT have audio then on default ubuntu settings
27 2011-02-26 00:04:04 <luke-jr> xelister: -Y is a different X forwarding mode
28 2011-02-26 00:04:05 <xelister> luke-jr: because pulseaudio runs as the other user (console-kit started)
29 2011-02-26 00:04:14 <luke-jr> xelister: pulseaudio is crap and should be deleted
30 2011-02-26 00:04:16 <luke-jr> Ubuntu too
31 2011-02-26 00:04:24 <xelister> perhaps
32 2011-02-26 00:04:25 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ?
33 2011-02-26 00:04:35 <xelister> anyway, this is why one may need to switch X users
34 2011-02-26 00:04:37 <xelister> other thing
35 2011-02-26 00:04:42 <xelister> are 2-3 people using same computer
36 2011-02-26 00:04:42 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, python client
37 2011-02-26 00:04:47 <luke-jr> xelister: there's always xhost +localhost
38 2011-02-26 00:04:50 <xelister> that want to have own desktop/apps remaining open
39 2011-02-26 00:04:55 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: based on Spesmilo?
40 2011-02-26 00:05:02 <xelister> without dicking by hand with ssh / sux etc tec
41 2011-02-26 00:05:02 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, based on what?
42 2011-02-26 00:05:02 <ItsDaFeds> Haz anyone figured out if bitcoin is friend || enemy of tax havens yet?
43 2011-02-26 00:05:07 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, not based on anything
44 2011-02-26 00:05:11 <xelister> this is nicelly done by Switch to another user
45 2011-02-26 00:05:16 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: Spesmilo is the original Python client :P
46 2011-02-26 00:05:17 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, trying to abstract it enough that i can dual stack it with a new protocol
47 2011-02-26 00:05:24 bitcoiner has joined
48 2011-02-26 00:05:24 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, oh, no
49 2011-02-26 00:05:32 <xelister> which, thanks to Rage!!!111¹¹¹ons drivers are causing hangs
50 2011-02-26 00:05:36 <xelister> midnightmagic: ^ :)
51 2011-02-26 00:05:46 <luke-jr> xelister: bet it works with teh Linux/X.org drivers
52 2011-02-26 00:05:59 <xelister> luke-jr: yes, but I need the amd drivers to mine opencl
53 2011-02-26 00:06:16 <phantomcircuit> indeed i've already realized i made at least one bad design decision
54 2011-02-26 00:06:18 <luke-jr> xelister: mining and usage don't go together
55 2011-02-26 00:06:24 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: is it a client or a wallet?
56 2011-02-26 00:07:02 <xelister> luke-jr: so you can say that heaving such far-from-perfect hanging driver costs user ~300 usd heh (cost of buying basig HW for separated mining computer instead of using main desktop)
57 2011-02-26 00:07:05 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, what's the difference?
58 2011-02-26 00:07:24 <phantomcircuit> currently it just speaks about half of the network protocol
59 2011-02-26 00:07:25 <xelister> (or ~100 on used components)
60 2011-02-26 00:08:20 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: wallet connects to the network and controls keys
61 2011-02-26 00:08:25 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: client provides a user interface
62 2011-02-26 00:08:46 <luke-jr> xelister: uh?
63 2011-02-26 00:08:58 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, controls keys? what?
64 2011-02-26 00:09:04 <luke-jr> xelister: I have no problems using my IGP for regular desktop use, while the Radeon mines
65 2011-02-26 00:09:17 <phantomcircuit> either way i plan gui in the near future
66 2011-02-26 00:09:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: wallet makes the signatures, calculates balances, etc
67 2011-02-26 00:09:44 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: perhaps you should participate in https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3757.0
68 2011-02-26 00:10:29 <phantomcircuit> oh you mean the protocol other programs use to access the client
69 2011-02-26 00:11:07 <luke-jr> â¦
70 2011-02-26 00:11:24 <luke-jr> wallet is the p2p daemon/server
71 2011-02-26 00:11:33 <phantomcircuit> rofl
72 2011-02-26 00:11:33 <luke-jr> miner is the worker
73 2011-02-26 00:11:37 <luke-jr> client is the user interface
74 2011-02-26 00:11:39 <phantomcircuit> terminology got me going for loops
75 2011-02-26 00:11:49 <phantomcircuit> oh bitcoin starts bitcoind?
76 2011-02-26 00:11:56 noot has joined
77 2011-02-26 00:12:02 <phantomcircuit> nope
78 2011-02-26 00:12:02 <luke-jr> no, the wx bitcoin embeds bitcoind currently
79 2011-02-26 00:12:06 <luke-jr> it *should* start bitcoind
80 2011-02-26 00:12:12 <phantomcircuit> ok that's what was confusing me
81 2011-02-26 00:12:15 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: I would love to run an alternate bitcoind. i'm secretly thinking the mainline bitcoind is a stripped-down version of what satoshi uses to watch/debug stuff.
82 2011-02-26 00:12:38 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: the idea is to have a standard protocol, so you can use any wallet component with any number of different UIs
83 2011-02-26 00:12:41 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, the mainline client looks like something written by an academic ...
84 2011-02-26 00:12:47 <xelister> JunK-Y: I have the problem described above
85 2011-02-26 00:12:50 <xelister> erm
86 2011-02-26 00:12:53 <xelister> luke-jr: not JunK-Y
87 2011-02-26 00:12:54 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: so, someone can write an Android UI that works with bitcoind or your wallet
88 2011-02-26 00:13:04 <luke-jr> xelister: ?
89 2011-02-26 00:13:14 void_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
90 2011-02-26 00:13:17 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: i can't peek now, but as an enhancement request, some socket for forwarding along custom transactions, or extra facilities for debugging/logging would be great.
91 2011-02-26 00:13:20 <luke-jr> xelister: my Radeon doesn't know VTs exist
92 2011-02-26 00:13:41 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: add it to the protocol requirements
93 2011-02-26 00:13:42 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: gotta go, but anyway, there are people who are interested dude.
94 2011-02-26 00:13:43 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah i get it
95 2011-02-26 00:13:59 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: don't need new protocol. just need better facilities.
96 2011-02-26 00:14:07 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
97 2011-02-26 00:14:13 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: we don't have a working protocol today.
98 2011-02-26 00:14:14 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, currently my client dumps a normalized version of the network traffic to stdout
99 2011-02-26 00:14:42 <phantomcircuit> and i was going to store block info/tx info in a sqlite db
100 2011-02-26 00:14:49 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: cool! have you replaced the wallet functionality yet? maybe I can help with that.
101 2011-02-26 00:15:12 <luke-jr> actually, I wonder if the wallet should be separate from the p2p part
102 2011-02-26 00:15:15 <phantomcircuit> no so far it's just a half implemented network protocol parser/ a third of a message generator
103 2011-02-26 00:16:24 <CIA-57> bitcoin: tcatm master * r5078a54 / (build-unix.txt makefile.unix): Merge branch 'mgiuca-wx-config' into integration (+5 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/igWsgl
104 2011-02-26 00:17:09 <luke-jr> tcatm: want to merge the sub-cent waste fix too? :P
105 2011-02-26 00:17:10 <RG> someone should code in a -irc option
106 2011-02-26 00:17:26 <RG> connects to an user-specified peerfinding network
107 2011-02-26 00:17:33 <RG> and disabling the seednode list
108 2011-02-26 00:17:38 <RG> *disables
109 2011-02-26 00:20:27 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
110 2011-02-26 00:20:49 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: gah, dude you picked a terrible time to give me a reason to care about a bitcoin fork, i gotta go. :)
111 2011-02-26 00:21:13 <phantomcircuit> lol
112 2011-02-26 00:21:15 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: aw, i thought it was a fork. :) ha ha, oh well.
113 2011-02-26 00:21:24 <phantomcircuit> not a fork
114 2011-02-26 00:21:33 <phantomcircuit> im not going anywhere near the bitcoin code
115 2011-02-26 00:21:41 <phantomcircuit> makes me want to cry and kill bunnies
116 2011-02-26 00:22:24 <midnightmagic> oh it's good and clean and makes me feel good. it's just.. very incomplete and lacking in hacker-friendly facilities for debugging/analysis.
117 2011-02-26 00:22:52 <midnightmagic> :-P take care man, keep up the hacking.
118 2011-02-26 00:24:26 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
119 2011-02-26 00:25:00 citiz3n has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
120 2011-02-26 00:30:26 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
121 2011-02-26 00:32:51 <RG> all bitcoin needs is a ircd which can do USERIP and WHO... all of that
122 2011-02-26 00:33:08 <phantomcircuit> RG, what?
123 2011-02-26 00:33:13 <RG> I tried to make a net myself by hostsing lfnet but it ended up getting the fallback nodes
124 2011-02-26 00:33:13 <RG> Your host is test.bitcoin.network, running version Unreal3.2.9-rc1
125 2011-02-26 00:33:18 <phantomcircuit> the irc bootstrapping is mostly useless
126 2011-02-26 00:33:20 <RG> phantomcircuit: creating your own bitcoin peerfinding irc networks
127 2011-02-26 00:33:33 riush has joined
128 2011-02-26 00:33:46 <phantomcircuit> RG, there are a couple of static nodes programmed in
129 2011-02-26 00:33:59 <RG> if there was a -irc option
130 2011-02-26 00:34:05 <RG> the option should disable it
131 2011-02-26 00:34:08 echelon has joined
132 2011-02-26 00:34:09 <RG> implying a new network
133 2011-02-26 00:36:01 alkor has joined
134 2011-02-26 00:36:31 akem has joined
135 2011-02-26 00:36:38 akem has quit (Changing host)
136 2011-02-26 00:36:38 akem has joined
137 2011-02-26 00:43:17 <theymos> The IRC code will probably be removed from Bitcoin at some point. It's not really necessary.
138 2011-02-26 00:43:58 Orbixx_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
139 2011-02-26 00:44:02 johnyh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
140 2011-02-26 00:44:19 Slix` has joined
141 2011-02-26 00:44:28 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
142 2011-02-26 00:44:56 KBme has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
143 2011-02-26 00:45:13 omglolbbq1 has joined
144 2011-02-26 00:45:15 darsk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
145 2011-02-26 00:46:16 niekie has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
146 2011-02-26 00:46:21 KBme has joined
147 2011-02-26 00:46:22 niekie has joined
148 2011-02-26 00:46:40 Sthebig has joined
149 2011-02-26 00:46:44 johnyh has joined
150 2011-02-26 00:47:00 <luke-jr> RG: if you want a new network, just use different magic and genesis
151 2011-02-26 00:47:40 Orbixx has joined
152 2011-02-26 00:47:40 omglolbbq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
153 2011-02-26 00:47:40 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
154 2011-02-26 00:47:40 daveparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
155 2011-02-26 00:47:40 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
156 2011-02-26 00:47:40 Orbixx has quit (Changing host)
157 2011-02-26 00:47:40 Orbixx has joined
158 2011-02-26 00:47:41 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
159 2011-02-26 00:47:54 molecular has joined
160 2011-02-26 00:47:56 darsk1ez has joined
161 2011-02-26 00:48:25 <theymos> If you want to create a separate network, you must change the genesis block. Otherwise someone could expose your network to Bitcoin and destroy your entire chain.
162 2011-02-26 00:50:34 <luke-jr> hmm
163 2011-02-26 00:50:55 <luke-jr> IMO, someone should create an exchange that allows you to download the keys for your own account
164 2011-02-26 00:51:27 <luke-jr> and connect via BitCoin UI Protocol :P
165 2011-02-26 00:51:48 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
166 2011-02-26 00:52:35 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
167 2011-02-26 00:54:09 phantomcircuit has joined
168 2011-02-26 00:54:48 Syke has joined
169 2011-02-26 00:58:09 niekie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
170 2011-02-26 00:59:00 JStoker_ has joined
171 2011-02-26 00:59:36 JStoker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
172 2011-02-26 00:59:36 JStoker_ is now known as JStoker
173 2011-02-26 01:00:05 niekie has joined
174 2011-02-26 01:02:33 lfm has quit (Quit: bye)
175 2011-02-26 01:02:34 discHead has joined
176 2011-02-26 01:06:03 thedrs has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
177 2011-02-26 01:09:21 johnyh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
178 2011-02-26 01:12:47 RG has quit (Quit: -Global- [B] Please return your seatbacks and tray tables to their full-upright position... one of our bobsleds slipped off the tracks.... /msg KillaH with complaints. But for now we've put it back on and expect smooth sailing for the remainder of the fl)
179 2011-02-26 01:13:15 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
180 2011-02-26 01:21:32 alystair has quit (Quit: â(ã»_ã»)âOUTTA HEREâ(ã»oã»)â)
181 2011-02-26 01:21:47 johnyh has joined
182 2011-02-26 01:26:06 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
183 2011-02-26 01:29:48 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
184 2011-02-26 01:31:33 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
185 2011-02-26 01:33:07 alystair has joined
186 2011-02-26 01:34:38 larsig has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
187 2011-02-26 01:36:39 gasteve has joined
188 2011-02-26 01:37:22 [Tycho] has joined
189 2011-02-26 01:38:15 [Tycho] has quit (Changing host)
190 2011-02-26 01:38:15 [Tycho] has joined
191 2011-02-26 01:38:39 <CIA-57> bitcoin: Matt Giuca master * ra357424 / .gitignore : Added .gitignore, which prevents 'bitcoin' and 'bitcoind' from showing up in git. - http://bit.ly/dEPSbz
192 2011-02-26 01:39:51 alkor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
193 2011-02-26 01:40:15 alkor has joined
194 2011-02-26 01:43:25 ItsDaFeds has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
195 2011-02-26 01:53:02 <andrewh> it's not worth it to download xcode for fucking gcc
196 2011-02-26 01:53:06 <andrewh> -.-
197 2011-02-26 01:54:44 <andrewh> let alone with ios sdk
198 2011-02-26 01:54:48 <andrewh> which i'll never use...
199 2011-02-26 01:55:52 PurplePoseidon is now known as purpleposeidon
200 2011-02-26 01:56:52 <andrewh> wait.. i think my mac's cds are supposed to have xcode tools
201 2011-02-26 01:57:43 <andrewh> its nice to have a cd drive that works
202 2011-02-26 01:58:58 discHead has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
203 2011-02-26 01:59:48 <andrewh> yep it does :3
204 2011-02-26 02:00:54 <andrewh> though it's only 3.2.5, so i'll leave the download for 3.2.5 running
205 2011-02-26 02:01:00 <andrewh> er
206 2011-02-26 02:01:03 <andrewh> it's only 3.2.3
207 2011-02-26 02:06:49 pogden has joined
208 2011-02-26 02:10:02 <EvanR_> xcode is a joke
209 2011-02-26 02:10:18 <EvanR_> you have to give steve jobs your mothers maiden name before you can write software for the mac
210 2011-02-26 02:10:24 <EvanR_> thats official bullshit
211 2011-02-26 02:11:35 dissipate has joined
212 2011-02-26 02:15:43 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
213 2011-02-26 02:15:55 hiweb has joined
214 2011-02-26 02:17:12 alkor_ has joined
215 2011-02-26 02:18:02 alkor_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
216 2011-02-26 02:18:09 alkor_ has joined
217 2011-02-26 02:18:09 alkor_ has quit (Changing host)
218 2011-02-26 02:18:09 alkor_ has joined
219 2011-02-26 02:18:10 alkor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
220 2011-02-26 02:18:10 alkor_ is now known as alkor
221 2011-02-26 02:22:59 <andrewh> EvanR_: dude
222 2011-02-26 02:23:12 <andrewh> EvanR_: that's a fucking security question. it can be whatever you want it to be.'
223 2011-02-26 02:23:21 <EvanR_> lol
224 2011-02-26 02:23:30 <EvanR_> bashtastic
225 2011-02-26 02:23:36 <andrewh> it can even be "you just lost the game!"
226 2011-02-26 02:24:21 <andrewh> how to compile diablominer
227 2011-02-26 02:24:33 <andrewh> readme is useless
228 2011-02-26 02:24:50 uni4dfx has joined
229 2011-02-26 02:26:00 <uni4dfx> has anyone ever thought of using a botnet to mine?
230 2011-02-26 02:26:33 <andrewh> yes. there probably is a few already.
231 2011-02-26 02:27:27 <uni4dfx> it's not legal though is it
232 2011-02-26 02:27:52 <andrewh> no, but bitcoin probably isn't going to be considered legal either.
233 2011-02-26 02:27:52 filterbox_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
234 2011-02-26 02:28:20 <uni4dfx> why not? i can sell my cpu/gpu cycles to whoever i want
235 2011-02-26 02:28:36 <andrewh> why not to which one?
236 2011-02-26 02:29:21 <uni4dfx> bitcoin not being legal?
237 2011-02-26 02:29:29 <andrewh> the government is stupid
238 2011-02-26 02:30:00 <Slix`> You can sell cycles I suppose, but botnets don't exactly ask for permission.
239 2011-02-26 02:30:06 <Slix`> w
240 2011-02-26 02:30:11 <Slix`> Why would bitcoin be illegal?
241 2011-02-26 02:30:32 <uni4dfx> i can imagine the US government being butthurt about people making mone
242 2011-02-26 02:30:35 <uni4dfx> money*
243 2011-02-26 02:30:49 <uni4dfx> but instead of making it illegal i think in reality they'd rather tax it
244 2011-02-26 02:30:52 <andrewh> uni4dfx: Liberty Dollar got killed.
245 2011-02-26 02:31:06 <andrewh> uni4dfx: they'd make you have to pay money to use money? that's kinda stupid
246 2011-02-26 02:31:09 <andrewh> :P
247 2011-02-26 02:31:18 <dissipate> andrewh, link?
248 2011-02-26 02:31:23 <uni4dfx> oh well, at least my government is SO stupid they probably won't even know about bitcoin for at least the next 10 years
249 2011-02-26 02:31:29 <ArtForz> minting coins that say "dollar", yeah, smart move...
250 2011-02-26 02:31:30 james has joined
251 2011-02-26 02:31:30 james has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
252 2011-02-26 02:31:44 <andrewh> dissipate: to what? libery doller?
253 2011-02-26 02:31:45 <andrewh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar
254 2011-02-26 02:31:47 james_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
255 2011-02-26 02:32:31 <dissipate> andrewh, no, a news article talking about how it had been killed
256 2011-02-26 02:32:40 <andrewh> dissipate: i dunno, google for one
257 2011-02-26 02:32:51 <andrewh> there's "legal issues" on that wiki page
258 2011-02-26 02:33:57 <uni4dfx> also this in the first paragraph: "In May 2009, von NotHaus and others were charged with federal crimes in connection with the Liberty Dollar and, on July 31, 2009, von NotHaus announced that he had closed the Liberty Dollar operation, pending resolution of the criminal charges."
259 2011-02-26 02:34:56 <dissipate> andrewh, nevermind, when i read 'liberty dollar' for some reason i was thinking 'liberty reserve'. 'doh
260 2011-02-26 02:35:01 <andrewh> lol
261 2011-02-26 02:35:14 <dissipate> i knew about liberty dollar getting shut down
262 2011-02-26 02:35:41 <dissipate> i wasn't a big fan of liberty dollar, but the charges were totally trumped up
263 2011-02-26 02:36:56 <pogden> all the charges in the liberty dollar case had to do with metal money
264 2011-02-26 02:39:14 <dissipate> weren't they charged with money laundering and conspiracy?
265 2011-02-26 02:39:16 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
266 2011-02-26 02:39:38 <andrewh> i dunno
267 2011-02-26 02:39:45 <andrewh> not really interested in the whole thing to be honest :P
268 2011-02-26 02:40:25 <dissipate> anyone think this is real? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3853.0
269 2011-02-26 02:40:44 <dissipate> guy is looking for a 'business partner' with 100,000 BTC
270 2011-02-26 02:41:12 <theymos> I'm sure it's real. Chaord is trustworthy.
271 2011-02-26 02:41:33 <andrewh> s/business partner/hoarder/
272 2011-02-26 02:41:34 <andrewh> jk
273 2011-02-26 02:43:18 MacRohard has joined
274 2011-02-26 02:45:40 <dissipate> theymos, i'm not sure about looking for 'business partners' online
275 2011-02-26 02:45:52 daveparrish has joined
276 2011-02-26 02:46:03 <pogden> where else are you going to find 100k BTC?
277 2011-02-26 02:46:28 <theymos> Only a few individuals have that much, and you'll only find them on the forum.
278 2011-02-26 02:46:32 <pogden> i don't know anyone irl who has bitcoins
279 2011-02-26 02:47:13 <pogden> and 100k is more than 1% of the all circulating bitcoins
280 2011-02-26 02:48:49 da2ce7 has quit (Excess Flood)
281 2011-02-26 02:49:05 da2ce7 has joined
282 2011-02-26 02:49:05 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
283 2011-02-26 02:49:05 da2ce7 has joined
284 2011-02-26 02:53:23 da2ce7 has quit (Excess Flood)
285 2011-02-26 02:53:39 da2ce7 has joined
286 2011-02-26 02:53:39 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
287 2011-02-26 02:53:39 da2ce7 has joined
288 2011-02-26 02:54:41 Lachesis has joined
289 2011-02-26 02:54:41 <dissipate> pogden, seems fishy to me.
290 2011-02-26 02:54:58 <andrewh> why don't poclbm and diablominer have documenation?
291 2011-02-26 02:58:37 <theymos> Maybe you should write some on the wiki.
292 2011-02-26 03:00:13 <gasteve> are there instructions on building bitcoin somewhere (I'm on a Mac)
293 2011-02-26 03:00:31 <gasteve> (well, I have Windows and Linux too...but on a mac at the moment)
294 2011-02-26 03:00:34 <theymos> build-osx.txt in the source.
295 2011-02-26 03:00:41 <gasteve> thx
296 2011-02-26 03:00:42 <theymos> I don't think it's easy to do.
297 2011-02-26 03:01:27 <gasteve> never stopped me before ;)
298 2011-02-26 03:04:27 <andrewh> theymos: I can't write them if I don't even know how to use them myself...
299 2011-02-26 03:05:17 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
300 2011-02-26 03:07:50 <andrewh> 5316/5506 khash/sec on my mac
301 2011-02-26 03:08:12 <andrewh> with diablo
302 2011-02-26 03:08:50 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
303 2011-02-26 03:13:02 <andrewh> wonder what my hashrate would be if i put linux on here :p
304 2011-02-26 03:21:06 <dissipate> you actually run windows??
305 2011-02-26 03:21:06 skeledrew has joined
306 2011-02-26 03:21:32 <andrewh> dissipate: mac.
307 2011-02-26 03:21:48 <uni4dfx> probably about the same
308 2011-02-26 03:22:00 <dissipate> andrewh, omg, you scared me for a sec. :D
309 2011-02-26 03:22:17 <andrewh> uni4dfx: what do you mean?
310 2011-02-26 03:22:25 <andrewh> the same hashrate?
311 2011-02-26 03:23:08 <uni4dfx> yes
312 2011-02-26 03:23:30 <uni4dfx> mac isn't so surprisingly different from linux, architecturally
313 2011-02-26 03:23:45 <andrewh> the kernel is different
314 2011-02-26 03:26:10 HarryS has joined
315 2011-02-26 03:27:30 PitiPoisson has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
316 2011-02-26 03:27:39 PitiPoisson has joined
317 2011-02-26 03:27:55 hiweb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
318 2011-02-26 03:28:31 <andrewh> i wonder if it's possible to compile stuff using the gpu
319 2011-02-26 03:29:11 <TheKid> OneFixt: you need to make it so I can have a permalink to check my balance
320 2011-02-26 03:29:24 <TheKid> so I can obsessively refresh during the day when I'm away from my desktop
321 2011-02-26 03:29:48 <OneFixt> TheKid: i need to put ads on that page if you're going to obsessively refresh it =)
322 2011-02-26 03:30:08 <TheKid> I block all ads anyway ;)
323 2011-02-26 03:30:11 <TheKid> afk
324 2011-02-26 03:31:30 fil has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
325 2011-02-26 03:31:38 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
326 2011-02-26 03:31:42 <uni4dfx> gahhh, when is slush going to re-open the registrations ;_;
327 2011-02-26 03:31:48 fil has joined
328 2011-02-26 03:33:15 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 5000
329 2011-02-26 03:33:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 51 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 40 minutes, and 4 seconds
330 2011-02-26 03:33:19 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 50000
331 2011-02-26 03:33:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 50000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 5 weeks, 1 day, 5 hours, 58 minutes, and 0 seconds
332 2011-02-26 03:33:23 <[Tycho]> Hello, uni4dfx.
333 2011-02-26 03:33:40 <uni4dfx> hello [Tycho]
334 2011-02-26 03:34:08 <[Tycho]> You can join my pool until slush's registration will be open :)
335 2011-02-26 03:34:33 <luke-jr> andrewh: wouldn't be very good at it
336 2011-02-26 03:34:56 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I wouldn't mind trying your pool sometime, but be aware I'm picky :P
337 2011-02-26 03:35:08 <andrewh> luke-jr: why not?
338 2011-02-26 03:35:09 <luke-jr> I get like 130% of estimated earnings mining for myself :P
339 2011-02-26 03:35:14 <luke-jr> andrewh: it's not designed for it
340 2011-02-26 03:35:32 <[Tycho]> luke-jr, http://deepbit.net
341 2011-02-26 03:35:33 <andrewh> luke-jr: gpu's aren't designed for bitcoin mining either, yet they do pretty well.
342 2011-02-26 03:35:42 <[Tycho]> PM me in case of any bugs found.
343 2011-02-26 03:35:51 <[Tycho]> especially during registration :)
344 2011-02-26 03:36:04 <[Tycho]> BTW, today we found second block :)
345 2011-02-26 03:37:14 <andrewh> [Tycho]: use tables for the html forms (at least on the registration page.. it looks like this for me: http://cl.ly/4qZh
346 2011-02-26 03:37:49 <andrewh> 13gctP74zCjcDpjMHW3FZpuostBGbdhxm9
347 2011-02-26 03:37:59 mizery has joined
348 2011-02-26 03:38:00 <andrewh> now i have a receiving address.
349 2011-02-26 03:38:01 <gasteve> ok...got github setup...looks like the build instructions were written when subversion was being used
350 2011-02-26 03:38:23 <gasteve> (the osx build instructions that is)
351 2011-02-26 03:38:32 <luke-jr> andrewh: there is nothing useful about mining, though; the proof-of-work bitcoin uses just happens to be similar to what shaders do
352 2011-02-26 03:38:45 <[Tycho]> andrewh, it was supposed to look exactly like this :) But thanks for suggestion.
353 2011-02-26 03:38:54 skeledrew1 has joined
354 2011-02-26 03:39:44 <mizery> Hey Everyone. Kind of important maybe
355 2011-02-26 03:39:49 <andrewh> [Tycho]: do you want some help with this project? i'd be willing to help if you want help. (did i mention that i can help?)
356 2011-02-26 03:39:59 <mizery> I am here at UWM in Milwaukee where Amy Goodman is signing books still and talking with people in person.
357 2011-02-26 03:40:26 Lachesis has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
358 2011-02-26 03:40:27 <mizery> i mentioned Bitcoin to her once very briefly, but would like to provide her with a printed page of some information that she can take with her so she doesn't forget.
359 2011-02-26 03:40:37 <mizery> Does anyone have any recommendations on a page I can print and hand to her?
360 2011-02-26 03:40:41 alkor has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
361 2011-02-26 03:41:14 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
362 2011-02-26 03:41:19 <[Tycho]> andrewh, thanks for your offer :) I'll tell you if needed.
363 2011-02-26 03:41:31 <luke-jr> mizery: you the same person who introduced me?
364 2011-02-26 03:41:42 lfm has joined
365 2011-02-26 03:41:49 <luke-jr> mizery: wtf is Amy Goodman?
366 2011-02-26 03:41:55 <mizery> democracynow.org
367 2011-02-26 03:42:02 <mizery> I must go
368 2011-02-26 03:42:07 <mizery> I am signed into someone's UWM account
369 2011-02-26 03:42:09 * mizery waves
370 2011-02-26 03:42:20 mizery has quit (Client Quit)
371 2011-02-26 03:46:52 <andrewh> hmm.. anyone have any idea how i could solve this? http://pastie.org/1608600
372 2011-02-26 03:47:33 <andrewh> jgarzik's cpuminer doesn't wanna compile on this mac: "byteswap.h: no such fule or directory"
373 2011-02-26 03:48:34 * gasteve this
374 2011-02-26 03:48:37 <gasteve> this
375 2011-02-26 03:48:52 <jgarzik> andrewh: you could try http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.msg49812#msg49812
376 2011-02-26 03:49:22 <gasteve> this suggests you are missing a file called byteswap.h (sorry if that's obvious...never tried to build this cpu miner)
377 2011-02-26 03:49:22 <gasteve> miner.h:21:22: error: byteswap.h: No such file or directory
378 2011-02-26 03:50:07 <gasteve> could also be that you have that file, but it's not in your include path
379 2011-02-26 03:51:39 EvanR_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
380 2011-02-26 03:51:53 alkor has joined
381 2011-02-26 03:51:53 alkor has quit (Changing host)
382 2011-02-26 03:51:53 alkor has joined
383 2011-02-26 03:53:26 EvanR_ has joined
384 2011-02-26 03:53:46 skeledrew has joined
385 2011-02-26 03:53:49 <andrewh> jgarzik: miner.h:26:24: error: sys/endian.h: No such file or directory
386 2011-02-26 03:53:53 <andrewh> heh
387 2011-02-26 03:54:51 <jgarzik> andrewh: i know osx has a byteswap somewhere
388 2011-02-26 03:55:04 <andrewh> it compiled fine on my other macbook...
389 2011-02-26 03:55:07 <jgarzik> andrewh: freebsd was just a stab at it, since osx and bsd share origins
390 2011-02-26 03:55:14 <andrewh> jgarzik: yeah
391 2011-02-26 03:55:20 <andrewh> hmm
392 2011-02-26 03:55:30 <andrewh> ~1Mhash with 1 thread on here
393 2011-02-26 03:55:53 <andrewh> gonna try the different algos
394 2011-02-26 03:56:37 <andrewh> huh, via actually runs on here-- nevermind
395 2011-02-26 03:56:46 <andrewh> :p
396 2011-02-26 03:57:16 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
397 2011-02-26 04:06:12 <afed> ;;bc,stats
398 2011-02-26 04:06:14 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110515 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 364 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 15 hours, 1 minute, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 52640.05098664
399 2011-02-26 04:06:22 <afed> crap
400 2011-02-26 04:07:03 <ArtForz> wow, lower than what I expected
401 2011-02-26 04:07:32 <ArtForz> my guess was 55k
402 2011-02-26 04:08:03 <luke-jr> I haven't got any blocks this difficulty I think
403 2011-02-26 04:08:05 <luke-jr> not since the 17th
404 2011-02-26 04:08:08 <lfm> andrewh: you're surprized you have a via cpu?
405 2011-02-26 04:08:08 <luke-jr> 19th*
406 2011-02-26 04:10:13 <andrewh> lfm:
407 2011-02-26 04:10:14 <andrewh> [andrew ~] $ ./minerd --url http://vps.andrew12.net:4567 --algo via
408 2011-02-26 04:10:14 <andrewh> 1 miner threads started, using SHA256 'via' algorithm.
409 2011-02-26 04:10:14 <andrewh> Illegal instruction
410 2011-02-26 04:10:37 <andrewh> it looked like it was working, turned out it didn.t
411 2011-02-26 04:10:39 <andrewh> didn't*
412 2011-02-26 04:10:44 <andrewh> wasn't*
413 2011-02-26 04:10:46 <andrewh> lol
414 2011-02-26 04:11:46 <lfm> ah ya
415 2011-02-26 04:12:35 <lfm> those cpu are kinda rare
416 2011-02-26 04:13:57 <bitcoiner> kadafi in da bunka
417 2011-02-26 04:26:59 noot has quit (Quit: leaving)
418 2011-02-26 04:27:36 dirtyfilthy has joined
419 2011-02-26 04:28:37 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
420 2011-02-26 04:28:47 discHead has joined
421 2011-02-26 04:33:17 norm_ has joined
422 2011-02-26 04:34:11 <norm_> logged channel.. my deathless prose will be immortalized! and I don't need a twitter account..
423 2011-02-26 04:42:42 Mango-chan has joined
424 2011-02-26 04:42:42 Mango-chan has quit (Changing host)
425 2011-02-26 04:42:42 Mango-chan has joined
426 2011-02-26 04:44:26 `Jaka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
427 2011-02-26 04:45:17 norm_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
428 2011-02-26 04:52:26 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
429 2011-02-26 04:54:41 discHead has quit (Quit: discHead)
430 2011-02-26 04:56:35 <necrodearia> Yay! Amy Goodman's talk in Milwaukee today was excepptionally and powerfully amazing.
431 2011-02-26 04:56:46 <necrodearia> I asked her if she has heard of Bitcoin. She admitted she had not heard of it.
432 2011-02-26 04:57:32 <necrodearia> I promptly and seemingly too rushedly suggested she should check it out, without getting into details or explaining why. and ended conversation shortly afterwards, parting.
433 2011-02-26 04:58:04 <necrodearia> I wish I had prepared materials or a kind of gift to her =/
434 2011-02-26 04:58:13 <necrodearia> blah
435 2011-02-26 05:02:40 <necrodearia> I should've bought her 24 karat gold necklace with bitcoin logo pendant
436 2011-02-26 05:02:42 <dissipate> necrodearia, amy who?
437 2011-02-26 05:02:46 <necrodearia> Amy Goodman
438 2011-02-26 05:02:51 <necrodearia> of Democracy Now!
439 2011-02-26 05:02:51 <dissipate> dunno who that is
440 2011-02-26 05:02:55 <necrodearia> You should
441 2011-02-26 05:03:01 <necrodearia> http://democracynow.org
442 2011-02-26 05:03:03 <dissipate> uh oh, sounds like mainstream politics
443 2011-02-26 05:03:09 <necrodearia> actually
444 2011-02-26 05:03:17 <necrodearia> "mainstream" is incorrect word
445 2011-02-26 05:03:26 * necrodearia glances at notes
446 2011-02-26 05:03:41 <necrodearia> Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is EVIL
447 2011-02-26 05:03:50 <dissipate> democracy sucks, sorry. :(
448 2011-02-26 05:04:45 <necrodearia> dissipate, I'm sure if you attended the event, you would feel otherwise... although, if you didn't, then you would probably assassinate everyone.
449 2011-02-26 05:05:18 <dissipate> necrodearia, can we take this up in bitcoin-politics?
450 2011-02-26 05:05:21 Syke has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
451 2011-02-26 05:05:34 <necrodearia> Amy Goodman specifically suggested to help encourage people to turn away from corporate media
452 2011-02-26 05:05:39 <necrodearia> sure
453 2011-02-26 05:05:52 <necrodearia> oh? only us two
454 2011-02-26 05:05:54 ColdHardAFK is now known as ColdhardMetal
455 2011-02-26 05:05:57 <necrodearia> I thought it would be more popular.
456 2011-02-26 05:06:01 <theymos> They seem to support the WI protests, which are really stupid.
457 2011-02-26 05:06:09 <dissipate> necrodearia, alright, bitcoin-talk
458 2011-02-26 05:06:10 ColdhardMetal has quit (Changing host)
459 2011-02-26 05:06:10 ColdhardMetal has joined
460 2011-02-26 05:06:14 satamusic has joined
461 2011-02-26 05:06:37 <necrodearia> theymos, Oh? You feel negatively of DN! also?
462 2011-02-26 05:07:01 * necrodearia is confused
463 2011-02-26 05:07:37 <theymos> I've never heard of them before you mentioned them, but I am very critical of the protests. I also have a cynical view of the middle-eastern rebellions.
464 2011-02-26 05:07:49 <theymos> I'm sure nothing good will come of either.
465 2011-02-26 05:07:54 kiba has joined
466 2011-02-26 05:08:25 <gasteve> I think they should just give the protesters what they want...free money ...LoL
467 2011-02-26 05:08:37 <gasteve> fools
468 2011-02-26 05:10:21 validus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
469 2011-02-26 05:10:30 validus has joined
470 2011-02-26 05:11:27 <gasteve> I mean, not only are they too ignorant to realize that the state and nation are bankrupt and that even if they get want they want, it'll simply hasten the collapse of the dollar, but they are also apparently too naive to realize they are simply being used as pawns in a bid for the throne
471 2011-02-26 05:12:44 <theymos> All those who failed to perform their work in favor of protesting should be fired immediately.
472 2011-02-26 05:13:05 <theymos> (Though ideally the whole public education system would be eliminated.)
473 2011-02-26 05:14:43 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
474 2011-02-26 05:14:57 <kiba> gasteve: it's called political patronage
475 2011-02-26 05:15:01 <gasteve> public education...I've heard anecdotes that prior to the mid 1800's (when education was all private), that the education level of the general population was far better than after the public education system was introduced (just anecdotes I read)
476 2011-02-26 05:15:09 nevezen has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
477 2011-02-26 05:15:15 Diablo-D3 has joined
478 2011-02-26 05:15:35 DoomDumas has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
479 2011-02-26 05:15:53 nevezen has joined
480 2011-02-26 05:17:19 m86 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
481 2011-02-26 05:17:37 dissipate has joined
482 2011-02-26 05:17:39 m86 has joined
483 2011-02-26 05:17:50 m86 has quit (Changing host)
484 2011-02-26 05:17:50 m86 has joined
485 2011-02-26 05:18:17 dissipate has quit (Client Quit)
486 2011-02-26 05:18:37 dissipate has joined
487 2011-02-26 05:21:07 DoomDumas has joined
488 2011-02-26 05:21:42 <gasteve> wxWidgets takes a long time to compile
489 2011-02-26 05:22:02 <afed> lol mining on my laptop
490 2011-02-26 05:22:06 <afed> 2204 khash/s
491 2011-02-26 05:23:44 <gasteve> I've been mining over 3 days with a 5970 at ~620mhash/s and still nothing :x
492 2011-02-26 05:25:25 <gasteve> is the only difference between bitcoin and bitcoind that one pops up the UI and the other doesn't?
493 2011-02-26 05:25:36 <[Tycho]> yes
494 2011-02-26 05:26:20 <gasteve> I was thinking it might be nice to factor out the wallet management into a separate library/executable
495 2011-02-26 05:26:45 <[Tycho]> It's already done.
496 2011-02-26 05:26:51 <[Tycho]> Called bitcoind :)
497 2011-02-26 05:27:17 <[Tycho]> You can write your own GUI for it.
498 2011-02-26 05:27:17 <gasteve> but bitcoind also has the bitcoin client and mining as well doesn't it?
499 2011-02-26 05:27:32 <[Tycho]> Yes. Why not ?
500 2011-02-26 05:28:27 <gasteve> well, what I'm getting at is you could have a separate tool (daemon) for managing the wallet that could/would communicate with another that acts as a client on the network
501 2011-02-26 05:28:45 <gasteve> and it could be made to manage multiple wallets, etc
502 2011-02-26 05:28:54 <[Tycho]> Yes, you can do it now.
503 2011-02-26 05:29:00 Syke has joined
504 2011-02-26 05:29:09 <[Tycho]> Not multiple wallets, but multiple accounts.
505 2011-02-26 05:29:19 <gasteve> what does that mean? all I see is bitcoin and bitcoind
506 2011-02-26 05:29:26 <[Tycho]> bitcoind
507 2011-02-26 05:29:28 <gasteve> (identical except one has the UI)
508 2011-02-26 05:30:27 <gasteve> because wallet management needs to be really secure, it might be a good idea to have that run in a separate process from the btc client or any miners
509 2011-02-26 05:31:12 <gasteve> so, you might have btc-wallet, btc-client, btc-miner, btc-gui all as separate executables (communicating with each other)
510 2011-02-26 05:31:17 <[Tycho]> May be. But it should be connected with bitcoin network somehow.
511 2011-02-26 05:31:52 <[Tycho]> Having one executable for everything looks nice for me.
512 2011-02-26 05:31:58 <gasteve> the wallet might register with the client to listen for transactions that the wallet is interested int
513 2011-02-26 05:32:51 <gasteve> it's the unix way I guess to separate concerns like this
514 2011-02-26 05:32:55 <tcatm> are you familiar with c++?
515 2011-02-26 05:33:15 <gasteve> tcatm: who are you asking?
516 2011-02-26 05:33:20 <tcatm> you ;)
517 2011-02-26 05:33:22 <gasteve> yes
518 2011-02-26 05:33:23 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
519 2011-02-26 05:33:32 <gasteve> unfortunately ;)
520 2011-02-26 05:34:12 <gasteve> used to follow c++ religiously when Stroustroup was creating it (or I would say...winging it)
521 2011-02-26 05:34:27 <dissipate> c++??
522 2011-02-26 05:34:32 <dissipate> *barf*
523 2011-02-26 05:34:57 <tcatm> if you have some time you could try to seperate the wallet code from the client
524 2011-02-26 05:35:12 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: bitcoind doesn't have a reasonable protocol
525 2011-02-26 05:35:43 <luke-jr> gasteve: that's the plan, more or less, but it's a bit off
526 2011-02-26 05:35:49 <gasteve> btw, having separate executables for different concerns doesn't preclude also building a single executable for those that prefer it (and also building libs that could be reused with other apps)
527 2011-02-26 05:35:59 <luke-jr> gasteve: Just began specing the UI<->wallet protocol at https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3757.0
528 2011-02-26 05:36:21 <dissipate> luke-jr, wallet protocol?
529 2011-02-26 05:36:38 <gasteve> well, let me know if there's something smallish I could work on to get my feet wet
530 2011-02-26 05:36:52 <luke-jr> gasteve: wallet<->p2p would just be the p2p protocol with 1 peer for the wallet
531 2011-02-26 05:37:09 <luke-jr> gasteve: protocol could use some mind melding
532 2011-02-26 05:37:13 <luke-jr> dissipate: ?
533 2011-02-26 05:37:15 <tcatm> gasteve: pick any issue from github, like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/47
534 2011-02-26 05:37:16 <dissipate> luke-jr, why would you want your wallet on peer 2 peer??
535 2011-02-26 05:37:42 <dissipate> luke-jr, gasteve: Just began specing the UI<->wallet protocol at https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3757.0
536 2011-02-26 05:37:48 <luke-jr> dissipate: you connect the wallet to the bitcoin-p2p daemon to get blocks and send tx
537 2011-02-26 05:38:18 <dissipate> luke-jr, oh ok. i'm hoping that would be over SSH
538 2011-02-26 05:38:22 <luke-jr> â¦
539 2011-02-26 05:38:26 <luke-jr> no reason for it to be
540 2011-02-26 05:38:39 <dissipate> what if someone listens in?
541 2011-02-26 05:38:44 <luke-jr> what if they do?
542 2011-02-26 05:38:56 phantomcircuit_ has joined
543 2011-02-26 05:38:59 <dissipate> they steal your wallet!
544 2011-02-26 05:39:05 <luke-jr> nope
545 2011-02-26 05:39:11 <luke-jr> wallet doesn't reveal anything private
546 2011-02-26 05:39:11 <dissipate> oh?
547 2011-02-26 05:39:12 <gasteve> another reason to factor out the wallet from the full p2p client is for lightweight clients (phones)...they could run just the wallet and connect remotely to a full p2p client
548 2011-02-26 05:39:15 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
549 2011-02-26 05:39:20 <luke-jr> right now, bitcoin is p2p+wallet+miner+UI
550 2011-02-26 05:39:23 <luke-jr> all in one
551 2011-02-26 05:39:39 <luke-jr> gasteve: that bit is a bad idea ;)
552 2011-02-26 05:39:49 <luke-jr> gasteve: if someone steals the phone, yuo don't want them to get your wallet
553 2011-02-26 05:40:01 <gasteve> so put a password on the phone ;)
554 2011-02-26 05:40:07 <gasteve> but, yeah
555 2011-02-26 05:40:09 <phantomcircuit_> gasteve, that wont help
556 2011-02-26 05:40:11 <phantomcircuit_> at all
557 2011-02-26 05:40:17 <luke-jr> p2p should run on your router, wallet on your desktop, and UI on your handheld
558 2011-02-26 05:40:31 <luke-jr> UI accesses wallet using the UI<->wallet protocol
559 2011-02-26 05:40:40 <gasteve> yep
560 2011-02-26 05:40:47 <luke-jr> wallet talks to the p2p daemon to exchange data with the network
561 2011-02-26 05:41:04 <luke-jr> p2p daemon maintains connections and decides what to relay
562 2011-02-26 05:41:34 <gasteve> I like it
563 2011-02-26 05:41:58 <phantomcircuit_> sexy
564 2011-02-26 05:41:59 <dissipate> and that shouldn't be over ssh???
565 2011-02-26 05:42:08 <gasteve> this kind of factoring wil be important for people that want to become bitcoin service providers of sorts
566 2011-02-26 05:43:01 <luke-jr> dissipate: no reason for it to be
567 2011-02-26 05:43:16 <luke-jr> dissipate: under no circumstances does the wallet tell any other component its private keys
568 2011-02-26 05:43:40 <tcatm> we could just start with a simple RPC that allows to broadcast a transaction to the network
569 2011-02-26 05:44:14 <dissipate> luke-jr, until someone finds a buffer overflow or some other exploit to get it to cough up the frog
570 2011-02-26 05:45:42 <gasteve> I find it a bit ironic that here you have bitcoin with all this sophisticated crypto, and yet they didn't both to apply basic encryption on the wallet.dat file
571 2011-02-26 05:45:50 <luke-jr> dissipate: your argument applies to a monolithic bitcoin client just as well
572 2011-02-26 05:45:51 <gasteve> *bother
573 2011-02-26 05:46:02 <luke-jr> tcatm: JSON-RPC is flawed in design
574 2011-02-26 05:46:34 <tcatm> we already have it and it works well
575 2011-02-26 05:46:40 <gasteve> how do you consider it flawed? (just an object serialization protocol)
576 2011-02-26 05:46:52 <luke-jr> tcatm: no, it is useless for clients
577 2011-02-26 05:47:05 <luke-jr> we need to poll it, and it only gives minimal info
578 2011-02-26 05:47:22 <tcatm> that's another problem
579 2011-02-26 05:47:40 <dissipate> google protocol buffers to the rescue
580 2011-02-26 05:47:44 <luke-jr> miners have this problem too
581 2011-02-26 05:47:52 <luke-jr> dissipate: suggest it on the wiki page ;P
582 2011-02-26 05:48:02 <kiba> hmm
583 2011-02-26 05:48:04 <luke-jr> but protobuf doesn't define a spec, it's just a skeleton
584 2011-02-26 05:48:11 * kiba is trying to figure out if he's on bash or not
585 2011-02-26 05:48:21 <dissipate> no one has thought of protocol buffers??
586 2011-02-26 05:48:43 <dissipate> luke-jr, google has a really nice way of defining messages.
587 2011-02-26 05:49:05 <luke-jr> dissipate: it's not been suggested/mentioned on the wiki page, but possibly because the spec is too early on-- we're still defining requirements
588 2011-02-26 05:49:13 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
589 2011-02-26 05:49:49 <dissipate> if you want a high performance wallet, i suggest protocol buffers over a transport layer like zero mq.
590 2011-02-26 05:49:57 <gasteve> interesting...first I've heard about google protocol buffers
591 2011-02-26 05:49:57 <tcatm> we need more people writing code
592 2011-02-26 05:50:00 <dissipate> it could handle thousands of messages a second
593 2011-02-26 05:50:16 <luke-jr> tcatm: we need a standard to write code to first ;P
594 2011-02-26 05:50:26 <luke-jr> tcatm: as it is, Spesmilo works, but just barely.
595 2011-02-26 05:50:53 <luke-jr> barely meaning I use it for everyday stuff now⦠:p
596 2011-02-26 05:51:20 <dissipate> gasteve, it's a cross platform, cross language binary messaging format
597 2011-02-26 05:51:25 <luke-jr> but still, it's paralyzed by the JSON-RPC protocol limitations
598 2011-02-26 05:51:32 <gasteve> yep
599 2011-02-26 05:51:50 <dissipate> gasteve, you define your messages in a C++ like language which compiles to libraries in a language of your choice.
600 2011-02-26 05:51:53 <gasteve> looks nice
601 2011-02-26 05:51:55 <luke-jr> dissipate: we use it for Armagetron Advanced :P
602 2011-02-26 05:52:18 * luke-jr would hope Python protobuf doesn't require libraries for stuff
603 2011-02-26 05:52:29 <luke-jr> should just be a generic protobuf lib that reads the spec files
604 2011-02-26 05:53:27 <dissipate> luke-jr, you always have to compile your message schema
605 2011-02-26 05:53:30 <gasteve> wxWidgets still compiling...damn
606 2011-02-26 05:53:35 <luke-jr> dissipate: that's stupid
607 2011-02-26 05:53:56 <luke-jr> gasteve: could just build bitcoind and use Spesmilo :D
608 2011-02-26 05:53:58 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, it's a code generator
609 2011-02-26 05:54:00 <dissipate> luke-jr, actually, it's brilliant
610 2011-02-26 05:54:06 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, ENTERPRISE
611 2011-02-26 05:54:19 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: there is no reason to have a code generator for Python
612 2011-02-26 05:54:26 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, exactly
613 2011-02-26 05:54:30 <gasteve> what the hell is spesmilo?
614 2011-02-26 05:54:40 <luke-jr> gasteve: PySide BitCoin client
615 2011-02-26 05:55:03 <dissipate> luke-jr, your schema is your documentation and defines your API.
616 2011-02-26 05:55:03 <gasteve> ah...
617 2011-02-26 05:55:04 <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/archive-tarball/tonal#.tar.gz
618 2011-02-26 05:55:21 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck is tonal anyhow?
619 2011-02-26 05:55:22 foucist has joined
620 2011-02-26 05:55:32 <phantomcircuit_> Diablo-D3, yeah i dont get that either
621 2011-02-26 05:55:44 <foucist> hey guys.. what's the simplest GPU bitcoin miner? i want to figure out how to parallelize sha-256 hashing
622 2011-02-26 05:55:45 <luke-jr> dissipate: sure, but there's no reason it can't parse those at startup
623 2011-02-26 05:55:50 <gasteve> so, while I know C++...I'm not a big fan (just think it's a crap language designed by someone that didn't bother to read up on what happened in the 70's and learn from it)
624 2011-02-26 05:55:53 <luke-jr> foucist: poclbm
625 2011-02-26 05:55:58 <tcatm> foucist: poclbm or oclminer
626 2011-02-26 05:56:08 <foucist> ok so those are the absolute simplest GPU bitcoin miner? :P
627 2011-02-26 05:56:20 <luke-jr> foucist: simplest to use
628 2011-02-26 05:56:25 <dissipate> luke-jr, you compile once, not every time it starts up. your protocol buffer schema compiles to python libs.
629 2011-02-26 05:56:29 <tcatm> oclminer might be easier to understand
630 2011-02-26 05:56:36 <foucist> luke-jr: not looking to use, just understand :P
631 2011-02-26 05:56:42 <gasteve> has any serious consideration been given to migrating to another language? (maybe keep some of the core performance sensitive stuff in C/C++, but move the bulk of the rest to something else?
632 2011-02-26 05:56:48 <Diablo-D3> foucist: uh, how is parallelizing sha256 hard?
633 2011-02-26 05:56:49 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, do you know if code size is important for GPU shaders?
634 2011-02-26 05:56:50 <luke-jr> dissipate: which are then interpreted anyway
635 2011-02-26 05:57:01 <dissipate> luke-jr, yep
636 2011-02-26 05:57:04 <Diablo-D3> foucist: all you do is run multiple sha256 calculations in parallel.
637 2011-02-26 05:57:11 <luke-jr> gasteve: it's not about migration, it's about competition.
638 2011-02-26 05:57:18 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: nfc
639 2011-02-26 05:57:18 <dissipate> gasteve, i vote for clojure!
640 2011-02-26 05:57:24 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, xD
641 2011-02-26 05:57:28 <Diablo-D3> clojure is for faaaaaaags
642 2011-02-26 05:57:31 <Diablo-D3> use java goddamnit
643 2011-02-26 05:57:36 <luke-jr> Java is crap
644 2011-02-26 05:57:37 <tcatm> gasteve: nope. but seperating core and UI is on the (unofficial) roadmap
645 2011-02-26 05:57:40 <Diablo-D3> your mom is crap
646 2011-02-26 05:57:44 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, java blows donkey c***
647 2011-02-26 05:57:51 <gasteve> Java sucks too
648 2011-02-26 05:57:52 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: up yours
649 2011-02-26 05:57:56 <Diablo-D3> javas faster than your shit, thats for sure
650 2011-02-26 05:58:07 <luke-jr> gasteve: MT`AwAy is working on a C wallet+peer, and Qt GUI
651 2011-02-26 05:58:12 riush has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
652 2011-02-26 05:58:13 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, clojure runs on JVM....
653 2011-02-26 05:58:17 <luke-jr> gasteve: Spesmilo is a PySide GUI
654 2011-02-26 05:58:18 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: qt is dead
655 2011-02-26 05:58:20 <gasteve> Smalltalk is my language of choice...I could probably live with Ruby...Javascript and Python behind that
656 2011-02-26 05:58:25 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Java is more dead
657 2011-02-26 05:58:38 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: yet is slower unless you're on a jvm lang that supports the java 7 extensions and you're on java 7
658 2011-02-26 05:58:38 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: at least Qt is used for real programs :P
659 2011-02-26 05:58:50 <dissipate> java is a crap verbose language that lacks any decent functional features
660 2011-02-26 05:58:56 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: Qt is no longer maintained, and Microsoft is probably going to start suing over it.
661 2011-02-26 05:59:14 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Microsoft can't sue over it, FUDer
662 2011-02-26 05:59:17 <gasteve> Java doesn't even have closures
663 2011-02-26 05:59:29 <dissipate> gasteve, don't even get me started on generics
664 2011-02-26 05:59:31 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: they can now! the new head of nokia is a microsofty
665 2011-02-26 05:59:36 <luke-jr> C++ may suck, but it's certainly better than Python, Ruby, and Java
666 2011-02-26 05:59:38 <dissipate> java generics: *BARF*
667 2011-02-26 05:59:40 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, you can sue over anything lolololol
668 2011-02-26 05:59:40 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: irrelevant.
669 2011-02-26 05:59:44 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: and microsoft may or may not be buying nokia too
670 2011-02-26 05:59:48 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Qt is BSD licensed as soon as Nokia abandons it.
671 2011-02-26 05:59:58 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: software patents care not what the license is.
672 2011-02-26 06:00:03 <phantomcircuit_> luke-jr, dem patents
673 2011-02-26 06:00:22 <gasteve> it won't be long before all these language perform at near C++ speeds
674 2011-02-26 06:00:22 <Diablo-D3> nokia is just the new novell.
675 2011-02-26 06:00:26 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: what patents?
676 2011-02-26 06:00:33 <luke-jr> gasteve: impossible
677 2011-02-26 06:00:35 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: ask nokia.
678 2011-02-26 06:00:38 <gasteve> not at all
679 2011-02-26 06:00:49 <phantomcircuit_> Peer -> MessageReader -> command parsers
680 2011-02-26 06:00:50 <phantomcircuit_> wat
681 2011-02-26 06:00:54 <gasteve> are you familiar with runtime dynamic translation technologies?
682 2011-02-26 06:01:02 <luke-jr> gasteve: to perform anything close, they would need to compile to native binaries
683 2011-02-26 06:01:10 <gasteve> they do
684 2011-02-26 06:01:16 <luke-jr> any dynamic translation requires CPU time to translate.
685 2011-02-26 06:01:18 <gasteve> well, not Ruby, not Python
686 2011-02-26 06:01:24 <gasteve> but Smalltalk, Self, Javascript do
687 2011-02-26 06:01:31 <gasteve> (Googles v8 VM does)
688 2011-02-26 06:01:36 <luke-jr> C++ compiles up-front
689 2011-02-26 06:01:46 <gasteve> (I used to do a lot of work on virtual machines)
690 2011-02-26 06:01:46 <luke-jr> gasteve: V8 isn't really ECMAScript compliant
691 2011-02-26 06:01:52 <gasteve> so
692 2011-02-26 06:01:56 <luke-jr> and again, it's dynamic
693 2011-02-26 06:02:00 <luke-jr> that has overhead
694 2011-02-26 06:02:07 <gasteve> not really
695 2011-02-26 06:02:10 <luke-jr> yes really
696 2011-02-26 06:02:16 <gasteve> heh
697 2011-02-26 06:02:20 <luke-jr> all that time C++ takes to compile a binary, is done at runtime
698 2011-02-26 06:02:34 <gasteve> nope
699 2011-02-26 06:02:39 <luke-jr> so instead of an up-front compile wait, you have general slowdown when you run it and it does the same crap
700 2011-02-26 06:03:02 <gasteve> dynamic translation can analyze and optimize while running and once optimized, can be turned off
701 2011-02-26 06:03:19 <luke-jr> still has to do it every time you run it
702 2011-02-26 06:03:23 <gasteve> so, in reality, a dynamic translation system can do a better job than a static, up front compiler
703 2011-02-26 06:03:30 <Diablo-D3> btw, ruby and python on the jvm is pretty fast
704 2011-02-26 06:03:33 <gasteve> no, it's doesn't have to do it every time
705 2011-02-26 06:03:37 <Diablo-D3> its faster than their own vms
706 2011-02-26 06:04:02 <luke-jr> gasteve: on top of that, it's basically impossible to debug
707 2011-02-26 06:04:10 <gasteve> no, it isn't
708 2011-02-26 06:04:18 <gasteve> far easier to debug in fact
709 2011-02-26 06:04:28 <luke-jr> so where is gdb going to get the debugging symbols for the dynamic crap?
710 2011-02-26 06:04:50 <luke-jr> how do you know the dynamic stuff won't change at the end user's system and introduce new bugs?
711 2011-02-26 06:05:10 <gasteve> well, to explain that over IRC would be quite tedious
712 2011-02-26 06:05:21 <foucist> Diablo-D3: i guess i'm actually wondering what it would take to code a bitcoin miner in machine lang for a multi-core architecture.. i imagine the parallelizing would require some specific management of shuttling the data around and such
713 2011-02-26 06:05:24 <luke-jr> you can't, unless its "optimization" is generic
714 2011-02-26 06:05:46 <foucist> so i guess i'm interested in looking at any bitcoin miner or sha-256 implementation that actually shows how to parallelize it
715 2011-02-26 06:05:49 <foucist> i dunno
716 2011-02-26 06:06:01 <luke-jr> foucist: you just do N instances of it
717 2011-02-26 06:06:33 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
718 2011-02-26 06:06:38 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no, you dont parallelize the sha256 algo itself
719 2011-02-26 06:06:50 <Diablo-D3> foucist: you just run multiple copies of it in parallel
720 2011-02-26 06:06:58 <luke-jr> tcatm: btw, did anyone merge my bugfix yet?
721 2011-02-26 06:07:04 <tcatm> luke-jr: url?
722 2011-02-26 06:07:13 <luke-jr> tcatm: Gitorious bitcoin master branch
723 2011-02-26 06:07:24 <tcatm> that's not an url
724 2011-02-26 06:07:27 <foucist> luke-jr: well what if a core can't contain a sha-256 hash or the instructions (i.e. it can only do parts of it at a time)
725 2011-02-26 06:07:37 <Diablo-D3> foucist: thats nonsensical
726 2011-02-26 06:07:45 <luke-jr> tcatm: http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/7884be12f59d285c705b4e1f60eb984eacebd7c8
727 2011-02-26 06:07:52 <Diablo-D3> sha256 only uses extremely basic integer ops
728 2011-02-26 06:08:06 <gasteve> luke-jr: there was a good google tech talk on what they're doing to make dynamic languages (javascript specifically) every bit as performant and debuggable as something like C
729 2011-02-26 06:08:18 <gasteve> (basically so you can have your cake and eat it too)
730 2011-02-26 06:08:43 <luke-jr> gasteve: it's impossible. you can never do more without consuming more resources.
731 2011-02-26 06:09:00 <gasteve> it's not impossible...I promise you
732 2011-02-26 06:09:16 <gasteve> what you say is true (you can't do more without consuming more resources)
733 2011-02-26 06:09:25 <luke-jr> you can argue you're consuming less *human* resources, which is the whole basis to interpreted languages in the first place, but it's still going to use more CPU time no matter what
734 2011-02-26 06:09:33 <gasteve> however, that's not a good analogy
735 2011-02-26 06:09:44 <gasteve> wrong
736 2011-02-26 06:09:57 <luke-jr> any kind of runtime compiling is inherently doing more than precompiled
737 2011-02-26 06:10:20 <luke-jr> and people have been claiming Java is faster than C/C++ for years now
738 2011-02-26 06:10:30 <luke-jr> yet it's still AWFUL SLOW in practice
739 2011-02-26 06:10:42 <luke-jr> not to mention bloatedly eats memory like a pig
740 2011-02-26 06:11:24 <phantomcircuit_> gasteve, you realize that googles latest javascript engine is faster specifically because it avoids compiling to native binaries for rarely used code right?
741 2011-02-26 06:11:34 <luke-jr> and finally, Java doesn't implement native GUI widgets on *any* platform
742 2011-02-26 06:11:43 <gasteve> what dynamic translation does is compile on the fly exactly the right things...think of it like running unit tests and analyzing the code paths as they execute and then optimizing the hell out of those paths...then freezing those optimizations (so that when you distribute, you have the benefit of those optimizations without the overhead of doing them at runtime)
743 2011-02-26 06:12:24 <luke-jr> gasteve: that's nothing more than an ordinary compiler, then.
744 2011-02-26 06:12:56 <luke-jr> except one that's very slow as it optimizes manually
745 2011-02-26 06:13:05 <luke-jr> rather than using logical code analysis
746 2011-02-26 06:13:09 <gasteve> sort of...except your ordinary compiler isn't actually running your code to find out the best optimizations...it's only doing static analysis
747 2011-02-26 06:13:18 <luke-jr> exactly my point.
748 2011-02-26 06:13:18 <phantomcircuit_> not to mention one that runs at the sametime you want the program to run
749 2011-02-26 06:13:31 <luke-jr> static analysis is far faster
750 2011-02-26 06:13:33 <phantomcircuit_> gasteve, only if you're being lazy
751 2011-02-26 06:13:38 <foucist> luke-jr: yeah i really don't understand that claim.. i mean sure, JVM is fast, ruby on jvm runs faste than regular ruby etc.. but yeah, it's sad that most java apps are so damned slow
752 2011-02-26 06:13:43 <phantomcircuit_> code profiling isn't exactly new
753 2011-02-26 06:15:16 <gasteve> btw, while no Java fan, I will say that well factored, object oriented code is faster in Java than in C++
754 2011-02-26 06:15:33 riush has joined
755 2011-02-26 06:15:36 * jgarzik questions that one... if you can even quantify it
756 2011-02-26 06:16:09 <gasteve> (but, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the Java code out there is bloated and very poorly written)
757 2011-02-26 06:16:27 <luke-jr> gasteve: that's why Qt apps run plenty fast and Java apps are slow?
758 2011-02-26 06:16:38 <Diablo-D3> so how is java slow?
759 2011-02-26 06:16:42 <Diablo-D3> no one has yet to explain that one.
760 2011-02-26 06:16:50 <Diablo-D3> oh I know what this is called! FUD!
761 2011-02-26 06:16:55 <Diablo-D3> now go fuck yourselves.
762 2011-02-26 06:16:56 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it's called experience
763 2011-02-26 06:17:10 <foucist> it's called actual usability of running java apps
764 2011-02-26 06:17:12 <foucist> on average computers
765 2011-02-26 06:17:15 <Diablo-D3> <luke-jr> I once used this badly coded program on java 1.2, and it was slow
766 2011-02-26 06:17:22 <Diablo-D3> experience my dick.
767 2011-02-26 06:17:30 <luke-jr> is Java 2 out now?
768 2011-02-26 06:17:42 <foucist> java IDEs, java torrent client, and other common java apps.. woahhhh nelly
769 2011-02-26 06:17:50 <Diablo-D3> no one cares what java did 10 years ago
770 2011-02-26 06:17:55 <Diablo-D3> people only care what java does now.
771 2011-02-26 06:18:06 <gasteve> eh...anyhow...my point is that there is nothing that precludes these dynamic languages from running as fast a C or C++ (in fact, dynamic translation should benefit C/C++ as well)...it's just a matter of time
772 2011-02-26 06:18:18 <luke-jr> when is Java going to implement native widgets for my OS?
773 2011-02-26 06:18:27 <luke-jr> rather than looking ugly Java-ish?
774 2011-02-26 06:18:28 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: luke-jr is just trolling
775 2011-02-26 06:18:35 <Diablo-D3> java DOES run as fast as C in a lot of cases.
776 2011-02-26 06:18:47 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: it already has for years.
777 2011-02-26 06:19:02 <luke-jr> gasteve: only if you disable the dynamic translation as you said, which makes it the same as a normal binary
778 2011-02-26 06:19:08 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: nope
779 2011-02-26 06:19:13 <gasteve> luke-jr: yes
780 2011-02-26 06:19:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: I dunno man, SWT works great.
781 2011-02-26 06:19:34 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: my OS's native toolkit is Qt. Where is the Qt implementation of Java's GUI APIs?
782 2011-02-26 06:19:41 <luke-jr> ok, where is the Qt impl of SWT?
783 2011-02-26 06:20:10 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: why would they need one?
784 2011-02-26 06:20:17 <luke-jr> because that's what native means, idiot
785 2011-02-26 06:20:22 <Diablo-D3> arent you theming your gtk apps using the gtk-qt engine?
786 2011-02-26 06:20:35 <luke-jr> it doesn't mean make crap look ugly on your own
787 2011-02-26 06:20:38 <luke-jr> I don't have GTK apps
788 2011-02-26 06:20:41 <Diablo-D3> and btw, swt finally is getting a qt engine, to make the tiny minority of KDE idiots shut up.
789 2011-02-26 06:20:55 <Diablo-D3> thats right: gtk is the native ui toolkit of linux
790 2011-02-26 06:20:58 <Diablo-D3> anything else is dead.
791 2011-02-26 06:21:00 <luke-jr> Linux is a kernel.
792 2011-02-26 06:21:03 <luke-jr> GTK is crap.
793 2011-02-26 06:21:07 <Diablo-D3> fucking kde users, get a life
794 2011-02-26 06:21:10 <gasteve> wxWidgets still compiling
795 2011-02-26 06:21:18 <foucist> Diablo-D3: don't assume he's a kde user :P
796 2011-02-26 06:21:20 <Diablo-D3> DURR HURR BLING BLING AND FANCY SHADOWS
797 2011-02-26 06:21:26 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no one else uses kde.
798 2011-02-26 06:21:28 <luke-jr> foucist: I am, because there's nothing better.
799 2011-02-26 06:21:28 <Diablo-D3> err
800 2011-02-26 06:21:29 <Diablo-D3> foucist: no one else uses qt
801 2011-02-26 06:21:36 <foucist> loads of linux users don't touch gnome or kde..
802 2011-02-26 06:21:43 <Diablo-D3> xfce uses gtk too.
803 2011-02-26 06:22:00 <afed> butt
804 2011-02-26 06:22:03 <luke-jr> the moment someone makes something better than KDE, I'm gone :P
805 2011-02-26 06:22:03 <Diablo-D3> and xfce is the majority of people who use linux on a day to day basis
806 2011-02-26 06:22:07 <foucist> yeah i don't install xfce because of that requirement hmm
807 2011-02-26 06:22:18 <foucist> (but then i only used tiling window managers and the like)
808 2011-02-26 06:22:19 <Diablo-D3> gnome and kde is for idiots who are stuck in windows and osx (respectively)
809 2011-02-26 06:22:26 <foucist> ion/wmii etc
810 2011-02-26 06:22:36 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you wish
811 2011-02-26 06:22:56 <foucist> Diablo-D3: bit of a troll statement there :P
812 2011-02-26 06:23:20 <Diablo-D3> well, no, Im not specifically calling out ubuntu users here
813 2011-02-26 06:23:22 <luke-jr> also, I always thought GNOME looked like OSX more than Windows
814 2011-02-26 06:23:27 <Diablo-D3> ubuntu users on ubuntu gnome arent really on gnome
815 2011-02-26 06:23:33 <Diablo-D3> they're going to be soon on TEH FUTARS
816 2011-02-26 06:23:39 <Diablo-D3> ALL HAIL MICROSOFT UNITY
817 2011-02-26 06:23:41 <Diablo-D3> etc etc
818 2011-02-26 06:23:52 <gasteve> btw, http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2380603,00.asp
819 2011-02-26 06:23:57 <luke-jr> KDE looks like whatever the user wants it to :P
820 2011-02-26 06:24:08 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: so why cant I get it to not look like shit?
821 2011-02-26 06:24:10 <gasteve> Google's v8 will soon surpass JVM speeds
822 2011-02-26 06:24:13 <foucist> Diablo-D3: man what's all this mention of gnome, kde, ubuntu, xkfce etc? everyone knows it's all about archilnux or gentoo w/ no kde or gnome :P
823 2011-02-26 06:24:29 <foucist> gasteve: isn't v8 javascript though? waht's that got to do with JVM
824 2011-02-26 06:24:35 <Diablo-D3> foucist: you're an idiot, alpine > arch > * > gentoo
825 2011-02-26 06:24:55 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: incompetence?
826 2011-02-26 06:24:56 <Diablo-D3> javascript is far easier to optimize for a jvm in some places... try with a strongly typed language next time.
827 2011-02-26 06:25:04 <gasteve> yes, it's built for javascript, but you could just as well run just about any language on it
828 2011-02-26 06:25:20 <foucist> Diablo-D3: you have a retarded tendency to say stupid shit like "you're an idiot" :)
829 2011-02-26 06:25:25 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: kde doesnt come with a basic looking theme that isnt bling
830 2011-02-26 06:25:31 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: theres no, say, clearlooks theme
831 2011-02-26 06:25:31 <phantomcircuit_> foucist, twm ftw
832 2011-02-26 06:25:43 <luke-jr> cuz Clearlooks is ugly
833 2011-02-26 06:25:47 <gasteve> here's smalltalk compiled down to javascript: http://clamato.net/
834 2011-02-26 06:25:53 <luke-jr> Plastik looks fine
835 2011-02-26 06:25:56 <Diablo-D3> OH RIGHT, ITS NOT SHINEY, WHAT WAS I THINKING
836 2011-02-26 06:25:59 <Diablo-D3> noobs
837 2011-02-26 06:26:29 <gasteve> it gives you a pretty decent class browser right in your web browser
838 2011-02-26 06:26:46 <gasteve> (just like there are a number of languages that can run on the jvm)
839 2011-02-26 06:26:46 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: oh god what
840 2011-02-26 06:26:57 <luke-jr> actually, Clearlooks looks like a copyoff of Plastik
841 2011-02-26 06:28:39 <luke-jr> I need to get to bed
842 2011-02-26 06:28:40 <luke-jr> night
843 2011-02-26 06:29:09 <luke-jr> tcatm: don't forget to git pull http://git.gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin.git master :P
844 2011-02-26 06:29:24 <foucist> btw, i heard the sha-256 hash depends heavily on multiplication?
845 2011-02-26 06:29:33 <foucist> wehn i look at the code it's mostly rotates and shifts?
846 2011-02-26 06:30:10 <luke-jr> foucist: shift left is multiplication
847 2011-02-26 06:30:32 <luke-jr> my 5 year old can multiply.
848 2011-02-26 06:30:36 <luke-jr> Tonal, of course. :p
849 2011-02-26 06:31:09 <gasteve> bed time
850 2011-02-26 06:31:09 <foucist> heh, i still have that 16 base counting page open, still need to study it :P
851 2011-02-26 06:31:27 <gasteve> (maybe wxWidgets will have compiled by morning...sheesh)
852 2011-02-26 06:31:46 <Diablo-D3> multiplication isnt nearly as bad as people think it is
853 2011-02-26 06:32:16 <foucist> yeah i dunno, saw osmeone say sha-256's biggest bottleneck was the multiplication
854 2011-02-26 06:32:38 <foucist> not sure what that's about, most cores implement shifting as a matter of course..
855 2011-02-26 06:32:46 Syke has joined
856 2011-02-26 06:32:58 <foucist> unless shifting itself is slow.. dunno
857 2011-02-26 06:34:03 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
858 2011-02-26 06:34:25 gasteve has joined
859 2011-02-26 06:37:24 Slix` has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
860 2011-02-26 06:54:31 <andrewh> foucist: it's supposed to be as hard as possible to mine bitcoins
861 2011-02-26 06:55:07 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
862 2011-02-26 06:55:12 <andrewh> so it's not really a bottleneck in this case
863 2011-02-26 07:00:16 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
864 2011-02-26 07:02:27 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
865 2011-02-26 07:04:33 Takyoji has joined
866 2011-02-26 07:08:03 <Takyoji> Anyone happen to know of a decent GPU-based Bitcoin miner at all? I have a NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT, not sure of the details, but can lookup such if needed.
867 2011-02-26 07:10:46 validus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
868 2011-02-26 07:10:56 validus has joined
869 2011-02-26 07:12:05 ForceMajeure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
870 2011-02-26 07:12:26 ForceMajeure has joined
871 2011-02-26 07:14:38 <Keefe> Takyoji: that card should be able to hash at 25 mhps
872 2011-02-26 07:15:10 <Keefe> so like 10x an average cpu. not too bad
873 2011-02-26 07:15:46 <Takyoji> my CPU is working at 2900khps. :P
874 2011-02-26 07:15:51 <Keefe> a radeon 5970 is 20x faster that the 8800gt, but the 8800gt is probably still worth mining with
875 2011-02-26 07:15:51 <Takyoji> So it would help
876 2011-02-26 07:16:27 <Keefe> i guess you were asking for what software to use?
877 2011-02-26 07:16:46 <Keefe> look for poclbm or diablo
878 2011-02-26 07:17:06 <Keefe> or maybe puddinpop's
879 2011-02-26 07:17:26 <Takyoji> I'll see if I can find such
880 2011-02-26 07:17:56 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
881 2011-02-26 07:18:49 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 25000
882 2011-02-26 07:18:50 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 25000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 10 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 56 minutes, and 0 seconds
883 2011-02-26 07:19:28 <necrodearia> "I'm curious, what is the most expensive thing purchased with Bitcoins to this point?" - http://is.gd/ei5o39
884 2011-02-26 07:19:29 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 27900
885 2011-02-26 07:19:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 27900 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 4 minutes, and 48 seconds
886 2011-02-26 07:19:44 <necrodearia> Anyone have an answer to the question?
887 2011-02-26 07:20:11 <knotwork> $45000 LR USD maybe?
888 2011-02-26 07:20:58 <knotwork> oh wait that hasn't been purchased with bitcoins yet due to it got frozen
889 2011-02-26 07:21:56 cllf has joined
890 2011-02-26 07:26:22 <Takyoji> Are there no official project pages/websites for the miners other than forum posts, (excluding poclbm, which has a github repository)?
891 2011-02-26 07:27:21 <Takyoji> Also, do such miners process a whole block itself, or work on a block collaboratively with other systems?
892 2011-02-26 07:28:26 cllf has left ()
893 2011-02-26 07:29:35 <Takyoji> Because if I were just using my CPU alone for example, it would take over a year for me to just process one block, to get any currency if I was just working on a processing a block alone.
894 2011-02-26 07:31:40 <knotwork> there are a few pools, and a lot of the miner code can be used with pools
895 2011-02-26 07:32:21 <Takyoji> For a pool, does one have to manually configure their client to set a specific one?
896 2011-02-26 07:32:39 <knotwork> I dont know but imagine so
897 2011-02-26 07:32:59 AmpEater has joined
898 2011-02-26 07:33:12 <knotwork> not sure how its done, like how it would know which connection is pool which are just random connections
899 2011-02-26 07:33:28 <knotwork> maybe you run with only one connection when mining with pool, I just dont know
900 2011-02-26 07:33:58 <knotwork> since my CPU is lilkely even slower than yours and my graphics chips are mobo builtins or old pci cards
901 2011-02-26 07:34:45 <OneFixt> "Addresses in human-readable form are strings of random numbers and letters around 33 characters in length" - wiki
902 2011-02-26 07:34:54 <OneFixt> yet i've seen addresses only 34 characters in length
903 2011-02-26 07:35:00 <Takyoji> I just don't see how many will be persistent to have their client running at near full power for over a year and so, until they can get something in return
904 2011-02-26 07:35:02 <OneFixt> does it vary?
905 2011-02-26 07:37:15 <knotwork> Takyoji the cpu mining goldrush is over, the gpu goldrush is fast competing toward needing more efficient gpus
906 2011-02-26 07:37:49 <knotwork> addresses human readable is maybe in base 58
907 2011-02-26 07:38:12 <knotwork> that might give a "digit" or so of variance, plus leading zeros might be omittable
908 2011-02-26 07:39:27 <knotwork> I am hoping maybe eventually some gamers might decide it worth their cpu time to have cpu mine for gamecoins
909 2011-02-26 07:39:35 <knotwork> while their gpu mines bitcoins
910 2011-02-26 07:40:07 <AmpEater> I brought my first 4x pnu miner online
911 2011-02-26 07:40:38 <knotwork> I dont want GPUs mining gamecoins though as I want them to be nice to generate even for people using only cpu
912 2011-02-26 07:42:02 AmpEater has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
913 2011-02-26 07:43:10 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
914 2011-02-26 07:44:22 dissipate has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
915 2011-02-26 07:50:05 <Takyoji> Having an issue with "Wrong username or password"
916 2011-02-26 07:50:22 <Takyoji> Do I have to declare a username as well in bitcoin.conf for bitcoind?
917 2011-02-26 07:51:28 <knotwork> do --help to see switches
918 2011-02-26 07:51:44 <knotwork> or you can put it into ./bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
919 2011-02-26 07:52:00 <knotwork> username seems to default to current user running the thing
920 2011-02-26 07:52:12 <knotwork> so only password seems actually "required"
921 2011-02-26 07:52:26 <Takyoji> Unless if I have it too long or something. x
922 2011-02-26 07:52:27 <Takyoji> xP*
923 2011-02-26 07:52:36 <knotwork> also on bitcoind do just plain help without the --
924 2011-02-26 07:52:49 <knotwork> that shows actually commands instead of switches
925 2011-02-26 07:53:28 <knotwork> I have even run bitcoind as root so I dont think it likely it dont like username
926 2011-02-26 07:54:02 <knotwork> I havent made a .conf though I just have shell script that puts password on commandline
927 2011-02-26 07:54:12 <Takyoji> poclbm requires bitcoind to be running, yus?
928 2011-02-26 07:54:20 <knotwork> as I am on machine no others use so no concern about them seeing it with ps or top
929 2011-02-26 07:54:38 <knotwork> probably I think
930 2011-02-26 07:54:54 <knotwork> unless maybe when used as pool the pool serves that function
931 2011-02-26 07:55:09 <knotwork> s/as/with/
932 2011-02-26 07:55:38 RazielZ has joined
933 2011-02-26 07:55:42 <knotwork> bitcoin or bitcoind, bitcoin is just a bitcoind with a GUI built on
934 2011-02-26 07:57:30 <Takyoji> I get an issue of "Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC" when using the GUI-based one.
935 2011-02-26 07:58:11 <Takyoji> when I try running poclbm
936 2011-02-26 07:58:58 <knotwork> maybe gui one has different defaults about whether to have the RPC interface activated
937 2011-02-26 07:59:58 <knotwork> did you compile bitcoin{|d} yourself?
938 2011-02-26 08:00:07 <Takyoji> No, used the precompiled version
939 2011-02-26 08:00:09 foucist has left ()
940 2011-02-26 08:00:44 <knotwork> also is poclbm a script or binary? if script it might have things it expects you to set inside the script itself
941 2011-02-26 08:01:06 <Takyoji> It's a Python script, which accepts CLI parameters
942 2011-02-26 08:01:31 <knotwork> for everything? no things in script itself wanting editting?
943 2011-02-26 08:02:16 <knotwork> does the script maybe expect to use https instead of http?
944 2011-02-26 08:02:39 <Takyoji> Nothing to be editted in it or any of that, I can double check
945 2011-02-26 08:02:54 <Takyoji> I was reading the source code for the CLI parameters, as well
946 2011-02-26 08:02:58 <knotwork> bitcoin{d} defaults to just http you need more switches set to tell it to use https
947 2011-02-26 08:03:09 <knotwork> like telling it where your certificate is
948 2011-02-26 08:05:04 <knotwork> did you tell bitcoind -server, or - daemon ?
949 2011-02-26 08:05:22 <knotwork> s/- dae/-dae/
950 2011-02-26 08:06:08 checksum has joined
951 2011-02-26 08:06:29 <Takyoji> Now I've finally got the GUI running as a server and everything, and have poclbm authorized properly with it, but now have an error of "Bitcoin is not connected"
952 2011-02-26 08:06:35 <knotwork> oh! maybe it has to finish downloading the 119k+ blocks of blockchain before it is ready to do anything
953 2011-02-26 08:06:54 <knotwork> if this is first time you have run bitcoind
954 2011-02-26 08:06:57 <Takyoji> I already downloaded all the blocks
955 2011-02-26 08:07:08 <Takyoji> 110558 blocks
956 2011-02-26 08:07:13 <knotwork> well it must have connected to get the blocks
957 2011-02-26 08:07:28 <Takyoji> But yes, after I ran bitcoin from CLI with the specified parameters, it not doesn't connect
958 2011-02-26 08:07:31 <Takyoji> Unless
959 2011-02-26 08:07:56 <Takyoji> Yea, all I needed was the -server parameter
960 2011-02-26 08:08:17 <checksum> hello , after hearing about the sourceforge hacking i was wondering if you have a checksum hash of the executables available for download ?
961 2011-02-26 08:08:39 <knotwork> yes you need either -server or -daemon to make it accept commands it seems
962 2011-02-26 08:09:24 <Takyoji> But I also specified rpcuser and rpcpassword, and when I did such, that's when it wasn't connected to Bitcoin successfully
963 2011-02-26 08:09:51 <Takyoji> Now I have it working
964 2011-02-26 08:09:58 <Takyoji> 25800kh/s
965 2011-02-26 08:10:27 <knotwork> see if you can also turn on the cpu in the bitcoin itself
966 2011-02-26 08:11:06 <necrodearia> hmmm, would http://careers.witcoin.com/ possibly be useful for posting job/career opportunities?
967 2011-02-26 08:11:18 <Takyoji> It says 26000khps, while for the CPU, it's 2500khps
968 2011-02-26 08:11:20 <knotwork> you might total 28700 instead of the 27900 I had gribble calculate earlierr
969 2011-02-26 08:12:22 <knotwork> great so you should get on avg about 5 blocks a year via gpu plus good chance of one via cpu
970 2011-02-26 08:12:32 <knotwork> that assumes 24/7 operation though
971 2011-02-26 08:12:37 <Takyoji> ;;bc,calc 28500
972 2011-02-26 08:12:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 28500 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes, and 27 seconds
973 2011-02-26 08:12:52 <knotwork> one of my machines is so old just trying to cpu mine 24/7 leads to bios shutting it down for overheating
974 2011-02-26 08:13:00 <Takyoji> heh
975 2011-02-26 08:13:13 <Takyoji> Yea, I probably might want to throttle my process just a little. xP
976 2011-02-26 08:13:19 <Takyoji> processor*
977 2011-02-26 08:13:46 <knotwork> luckily I only have to be connected to a second instance (the older machine) in order to mine Martian BotCoins privately
978 2011-02-26 08:13:49 <Takyoji> GPU is at 178 degrees Fahrenheit now
979 2011-02-26 08:14:17 <knotwork> you might want to look into util for setting fan if such util exists for your card
980 2011-02-26 08:14:51 <knotwork> how much is that in standard units? or even kelvin? (where are you *from*? US?)
981 2011-02-26 08:15:01 <Takyoji> Minnesota in US, yes
982 2011-02-26 08:16:16 <Takyoji> I wonder if there's a way to throttle the GPU usage a little
983 2011-02-26 08:16:35 <knotwork> back in the prvious millenia I used to know conversion from fahrenheit to what was then known as centigrade
984 2011-02-26 08:16:39 <knotwork> but not anymore
985 2011-02-26 08:17:07 <knotwork> I know water boils at uh hmm was it 220? or less likely maybe it was 240?
986 2011-02-26 08:17:54 <Takyoji> 82 Celsius
987 2011-02-26 08:17:57 <knotwork> for ati cards there is a util that can set all kinds of stuff on them but no idea for your card
988 2011-02-26 08:18:00 <Takyoji> Is the current temperature
989 2011-02-26 08:18:22 <knotwork> I have seen a lot of folk say 80 but maybe 82 might be getting up there a bit
990 2011-02-26 08:18:59 <knotwork> also most cards don't assume player will be gaming hard 24/7
991 2011-02-26 08:19:51 <knotwork> I think some cards are only officially rated to 60 or thereabouts though others maybe its 80
992 2011-02-26 08:20:23 <Takyoji> So I might as well not try providing processing power then? xP
993 2011-02-26 08:20:27 <knotwork> a lot of people overclock, maybe googling that might find what utils they use for tuning cards
994 2011-02-26 08:21:03 <knotwork> well one could go through a lot of energy drinks to stay mentally alert while waiting 9 weeks to possibly get a block
995 2011-02-26 08:21:30 <knotwork> and that is mere avg remember, not sure if it is poisson or bell curve
996 2011-02-26 08:21:57 <knotwork> (maybe dont matter which both are variant forms of same info in a way)
997 2011-02-26 08:22:01 <Takyoji> So in some cases in may be shorter, and some may be longer?
998 2011-02-26 08:22:32 <knotwork> oh yeah. you might stumble on a block tonight then not get another for 18 or 27 or 36 or whatever weeks
999 2011-02-26 08:22:47 <knotwork> hence pools, they share out the winnings among those who contributed work
1000 2011-02-26 08:23:37 <Takyoji> So is it pretty much brute-force, or?
1001 2011-02-26 08:23:47 <knotwork> its lottery
1002 2011-02-26 08:24:33 <knotwork> you arent getting closer and closer to answer, until at it so long that by then someone solved a block so you need
1003 2011-02-26 08:24:42 <knotwork> to start over taking their new block into account
1004 2011-02-26 08:24:45 <uni4dfx> how long does one diff usually last for?
1005 2011-02-26 08:24:58 <knotwork> one diff ?
1006 2011-02-26 08:25:07 <uni4dfx> difficulty
1007 2011-02-26 08:25:17 TheAncientGoat has joined
1008 2011-02-26 08:25:25 <uni4dfx> how long until it increases
1009 2011-02-26 08:25:37 <knotwork> oh every 210 blocks is it? approx 2 weeks divided by ten minutes, in blocks
1010 2011-02-26 08:25:56 <uni4dfx> 2016 blocks afaik, but i didn't know how much that was in weeks
1011 2011-02-26 08:26:12 <knotwork> until is re-calculates and either increases or decreases or stays same to try to maintain it taking 10 mins
1012 2011-02-26 08:26:17 <knotwork> on avg to solve a block
1013 2011-02-26 08:27:48 <knotwork> hence my one cpu at 500 or less khash/sec working all alone on Martian BotCoins takes on avg 10 mins per block
1014 2011-02-26 08:28:09 <Takyoji> Is a person "allocated" a block to work at, or is it completely randomized?
1015 2011-02-26 08:28:13 <knotwork> just like entire massive bunch of GPUs out there mining bitcoins take 10 mins per block between the lot of them
1016 2011-02-26 08:28:43 <knotwork> you invent the block with a transaction saying you got 50 coin for solving block
1017 2011-02-26 08:29:04 dissipate has joined
1018 2011-02-26 08:29:13 <knotwork> you need hash of previous longest chain last valid block to work with of course
1019 2011-02-26 08:29:28 <knotwork> and optionally include other people's transactions if you like the fees they chose to offer
1020 2011-02-26 08:29:57 <knotwork> (by default you dont require them to pay a fee at all and include enough trans that it is maybe pretty much all
1021 2011-02-26 08:30:05 <knotwork> at current rate of transaction traffic)
1022 2011-02-26 08:30:11 <Takyoji> So perhaps I could run the application once in a while for like the span of a year, then eventually have it payout?
1023 2011-02-26 08:30:17 alkor has joined
1024 2011-02-26 08:30:30 <knotwork> yeah could get lucky any time
1025 2011-02-26 08:30:49 <Takyoji> Also, as more blocks are calculated, does it get computationally harder for future ones, or?
1026 2011-02-26 08:30:51 <knotwork> you could also maybe hack it to start nonce incrementing at some random nonce value instead
1027 2011-02-26 08:30:58 <knotwork> of always iterating upward
1028 2011-02-26 08:31:22 <Takyoji> I'm also curious the power usage cost of my system right now
1029 2011-02-26 08:31:27 <knotwork> the difficulty is recomputed every (what would at tem mins per be 2 weeks) blocks
1030 2011-02-26 08:31:35 alkor has quit (Client Quit)
1031 2011-02-26 08:32:06 <uni4dfx> so basically you need to double your GPU stack every two weeks
1032 2011-02-26 08:32:13 <knotwork> look up max power draw of your card and cpu I guess
1033 2011-02-26 08:32:41 <knotwork> no not double, expected next change is for it to go up maybe 40 or 50 percent
1034 2011-02-26 08:32:57 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,stats
1035 2011-02-26 08:32:59 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110561 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 318 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 9 hours, 44 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 52903.30311391
1036 2011-02-26 08:33:11 <knotwork> and as summer comes so less people need to heat their home with GPUs maybe some will find it not
1037 2011-02-26 08:33:12 <dissipate> yikes
1038 2011-02-26 08:33:18 <uni4dfx> 52900
1039 2011-02-26 08:33:23 <knotwork> so good to spend all that electricity on heat
1040 2011-02-26 08:33:24 <uni4dfx> that's a heck of a lot more
1041 2011-02-26 08:33:32 <dissipate> ouch
1042 2011-02-26 08:33:33 <Takyoji> 105Watt
1043 2011-02-26 08:33:43 <uni4dfx> now you need two 5970's to get 50BTC a day
1044 2011-02-26 08:33:48 <uni4dfx> next week you'll need four
1045 2011-02-26 08:34:20 <knotwork> the guy trying to sell 2 5970's for 1600 bitcoin or less thought they would, not counting electricity cost,
1046 2011-02-26 08:34:44 <knotwork> pay for themselves in about a month. someone else said no way, more like two maybe three months,
1047 2011-02-26 08:34:56 <knotwork> and remember difficulty it tending upwards lately
1048 2011-02-26 08:35:06 <uni4dfx> they pay for themselves eventually, but you won't be making profit
1049 2011-02-26 08:35:36 <knotwork> exactly. I am hoping that as bitcoin mining gets less and less attractive to small players
1050 2011-02-26 08:35:49 <knotwork> mining Martian Bitcoins instead might start to look good
1051 2011-02-26 08:36:00 <uni4dfx> Martian Bitcoins?
1052 2011-02-26 08:36:05 <knotwork> depending on how much Martian Bitcoins are valued by then of course
1053 2011-02-26 08:36:06 <Blitzboom> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png
1054 2011-02-26 08:36:13 <Blitzboom> difficulty is rising exponentially
1055 2011-02-26 08:36:15 <uni4dfx> although.... there is one important point here
1056 2011-02-26 08:36:26 <uni4dfx> the BTC-->USD index
1057 2011-02-26 08:36:28 <knotwork> a game currency, implemented by hacking the -testnet switch of bitcoin and bitcoind
1058 2011-02-26 08:36:29 <uni4dfx> is also rising exponentially
1059 2011-02-26 08:36:40 <knotwork> so when I tell them -testnet they do Martian Bitcoins instead
1060 2011-02-26 08:36:59 <Blitzboom> uni4dfx: hmm. you could be right
1061 2011-02-26 08:37:11 <uni4dfx> so even though it gets harder and harder to gain the 50 BTC
1062 2011-02-26 08:37:16 <uni4dfx> it's worth more and more
1063 2011-02-26 08:37:20 <knotwork> since -testnet wiped out all its value lately so I have no vision of ever wanting or needing to use actual testnet
1064 2011-02-26 08:37:21 <uni4dfx> so it kinda cancels out
1065 2011-02-26 08:37:49 <knotwork> yes the cost to mine gold uh I mean to generate coins might help uphold price of coins
1066 2011-02-26 08:37:49 <Diablo-D3> erm
1067 2011-02-26 08:37:52 <Diablo-D3> its a testnet
1068 2011-02-26 08:37:55 <Diablo-D3> you do realize that, right?
1069 2011-02-26 08:38:11 <knotwork> as miners might be reluctant to sell coins at less than the cost of generating them
1070 2011-02-26 08:38:20 <uni4dfx> exactly
1071 2011-02-26 08:38:40 <knotwork> testnet is a test net yes, but Martian Bitcoins have a different IRC channel and genesis block
1072 2011-02-26 08:38:50 <uni4dfx> it's like the oil price, if it becomes more difficult to find the oil, the price will go u p
1073 2011-02-26 08:38:54 <uni4dfx> up*
1074 2011-02-26 08:39:20 <Takyoji> Will there perhaps be a point where there's no longer interest/incentive for bitcoin mining?
1075 2011-02-26 08:39:27 <knotwork> maybe but also the beverly hillbillies who lucked onto huge reservoir in early days dirt cheap
1076 2011-02-26 08:39:39 <knotwork> might decide to start cashing in their huge reservoirs
1077 2011-02-26 08:40:11 <knotwork> incentive to mine will have to be provided by the transaction fees once all 21m or so coins have been mined
1078 2011-02-26 08:40:46 <Syke> my last block solved gave me 50.03 coins!
1079 2011-02-26 08:41:16 <knotwork> .03 in transaction fees
1080 2011-02-26 08:42:27 <Syke> yup, bonus
1081 2011-02-26 08:42:49 <uni4dfx> Syke what kind of HW are you using
1082 2011-02-26 08:43:22 <Syke> i've got 3 boxes, 2x5870, 5870+5770, and 6950
1083 2011-02-26 08:44:19 <uni4dfx> so that what like 1Ghash/s ?
1084 2011-02-26 08:44:41 <uni4dfx> 1.5
1085 2011-02-26 08:44:44 <Syke> yeah, 1.5
1086 2011-02-26 08:45:11 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 15000
1087 2011-02-26 08:45:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 15000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 17 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 53 minutes, and 21 seconds
1088 2011-02-26 08:45:17 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calc 150000
1089 2011-02-26 08:45:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 59 minutes, and 20 seconds
1090 2011-02-26 08:45:23 <uni4dfx> ffs
1091 2011-02-26 08:45:28 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calc 1500000
1092 2011-02-26 08:45:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 59 minutes, and 56 seconds
1093 2011-02-26 08:45:31 <uni4dfx> this
1094 2011-02-26 08:45:39 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 15000000
1095 2011-02-26 08:45:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 15000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 hours, 53 minutes, and 59 seconds
1096 2011-02-26 08:45:49 dissipate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1097 2011-02-26 08:45:54 <uni4dfx> so
1098 2011-02-26 08:46:01 <uni4dfx> when the diff goes up tomorrow
1099 2011-02-26 08:46:11 <knotwork> 8 blocks a day?
1100 2011-02-26 08:46:38 <knotwork> 400 bitcoins a day those 3 machines have been making lately?
1101 2011-02-26 08:46:41 <uni4dfx> you typed in 15Ghash/s
1102 2011-02-26 08:46:49 <knotwork> ah
1103 2011-02-26 08:46:51 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 1500000
1104 2011-02-26 08:46:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1500000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 1 day, 4 hours, 59 minutes, and 56 seconds
1105 2011-02-26 08:47:10 <uni4dfx> now
1106 2011-02-26 08:47:13 <knotwork> still, enough to live on
1107 2011-02-26 08:47:15 <uni4dfx> tomorrow the diff will change
1108 2011-02-26 08:47:18 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,stats
1109 2011-02-26 08:47:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110564 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 315 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 9 hours, 25 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 52903.95476885
1110 2011-02-26 08:47:26 <uni4dfx> and with that diff
1111 2011-02-26 08:47:46 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 52904 1500000
1112 2011-02-26 08:47:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 52904 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1500000, is 3 years, 44 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 44 minutes, and 14 seconds
1113 2011-02-26 08:47:48 <Syke> someone...
1114 2011-02-26 08:47:49 genjix has joined
1115 2011-02-26 08:47:50 <uni4dfx> woops
1116 2011-02-26 08:47:54 * Syke glances over at ArtForz
1117 2011-02-26 08:47:58 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 1500000 52904
1118 2011-02-26 08:47:58 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1500000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 52904, is 1 day, 18 hours, 4 minutes, and 40 seconds
1119 2011-02-26 08:47:59 <genjix> anyone here from germany?
1120 2011-02-26 08:48:04 <Syke> has been cranking up some extra hashes lately
1121 2011-02-26 08:48:22 <Mango-chan> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/185754_204432659574285_100000226582379_936925_80191_n.jpg
1122 2011-02-26 08:48:22 <Mango-chan> guys
1123 2011-02-26 08:48:29 <Mango-chan> do you like my android wall
1124 2011-02-26 08:48:42 <genjix> anyone here from germany?
1125 2011-02-26 08:48:51 <uni4dfx> genjix nein
1126 2011-02-26 08:50:03 <uni4dfx> i got 0.2 BTC in 5 hours -__-
1127 2011-02-26 08:50:10 <uni4dfx> waste of time
1128 2011-02-26 08:50:47 <dirtyfilthy> i've been thinking a reputation system for bitcoin would be a valuable service, but i'm trying to figure out how it would work, and what features it would have. Does anyone have any examples of reputation systems they thing are effective?
1129 2011-02-26 08:51:04 <knotwork> gribble has one here
1130 2011-02-26 08:51:18 <knotwork> or on #bitcoin-otc anyway
1131 2011-02-26 08:51:33 <dirtyfilthy> yeah that's a good point, i should look into how the otc web of trust works
1132 2011-02-26 08:53:12 <dirtyfilthy> i'm reading through these http://www.stanford.edu/group/reputation/ for ideas
1133 2011-02-26 08:54:55 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 1200000 52904
1134 2011-02-26 08:54:55 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 52904, is 2 days, 4 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds
1135 2011-02-26 08:56:41 <knotwork> maybe it could be possible to calculate how many protein folding attempts ought to take 10 minutes,
1136 2011-02-26 08:56:53 <knotwork> and thus cure cancer while generating coins
1137 2011-02-26 08:57:35 <genjix> can someone send me 0.5 btc to 1KyZ9WHksec4VT9yfnLYK8R38kZ88unyoM so I can send an SMS to germany?
1138 2011-02-26 08:57:39 <uni4dfx> from tomorrow on, with two 5970's you'll be able to get less than 25BCT a day, so before the diff changes again you'll make 350BCT, which doesn't even pay for ONE of the two cards
1139 2011-02-26 08:57:45 <genjix> i dont have any btc atm :p
1140 2011-02-26 08:58:23 <Takyoji> Gah, if only more context was on a wiki rather than fragmented throughout a forum as different posts.
1141 2011-02-26 08:58:24 <knotwork> man SMSs are expensive how many bytes is that?
1142 2011-02-26 08:58:28 <Takyoji> more content*
1143 2011-02-26 08:58:33 <genjix> 160
1144 2011-02-26 08:59:00 <dirtyfilthy> Takyoji: you could start solving that problem :)
1145 2011-02-26 08:59:14 <knotwork> not satisfied to nickel and dime you to death now they have to 0.5 bitcoin you to death :)
1146 2011-02-26 08:59:20 <Takyoji> I'd just need to have an understanding myself. :P
1147 2011-02-26 08:59:32 <uni4dfx> genjix nice try http://www.kumita.de/
1148 2011-02-26 08:59:55 <genjix> thanks
1149 2011-02-26 09:00:11 <genjix> +352 691 444 302
1150 2011-02-26 09:00:15 <Takyoji> and I'm looking at pooled mining efforts, and one seems to be no longer accepting registration
1151 2011-02-26 09:00:17 <genjix> how do I use that number?
1152 2011-02-26 09:00:29 <genjix> they all start with 01
1153 2011-02-26 09:00:50 <knotwork> one pool that looks closed you can actually get into by invite by contacting owner I think
1154 2011-02-26 09:01:14 <knotwork> 01 is north america
1155 2011-02-26 09:01:20 <knotwork> 352 might be germany
1156 2011-02-26 09:01:40 <uni4dfx> yeah dude 352 is luxembourg
1157 2011-02-26 09:01:44 <genjix> i know, but that site uni4dfx linked has all the numbers starting with 01
1158 2011-02-26 09:01:48 <knotwork> maybe thats a site for germans to sms to north america free if it assumes you want 01
1159 2011-02-26 09:02:05 <knotwork> email the chap and tell HIM to sms YOU ;)
1160 2011-02-26 09:02:12 <uni4dfx> genjix that's because your number is not in germany
1161 2011-02-26 09:02:14 <genjix> cmon... nobody can donate 0.5 btc?
1162 2011-02-26 09:02:33 <genjix> such stingy bastards
1163 2011-02-26 09:02:43 <knotwork> any idea how many hours it'd take to generate 0.5 btc?
1164 2011-02-26 09:02:54 <uni4dfx> you're an idiot for not knowing how to use free online sms services, you don't need 0.5btc for that
1165 2011-02-26 09:03:19 <uni4dfx> knotwork on what hardware
1166 2011-02-26 09:03:23 <knotwork> go hit up bitcoin faucet for 0.05 then put it through the bitcoin ponzi to multiply it
1167 2011-02-26 09:03:29 cyphase has quit (Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/)
1168 2011-02-26 09:04:02 <knotwork> <uni4dfx> i got 0.2 BTC in 5 hours -__-
1169 2011-02-26 09:04:19 <uni4dfx> well i have a shitty 4870
1170 2011-02-26 09:04:29 <knotwork> ;;bc,calc 550
1171 2011-02-26 09:04:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 550 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 years, 1 week, 3 days, 7 hours, 53 minutes, and 23 seconds
1172 2011-02-26 09:05:03 <knotwork> my cpu, with bitcoin niced and firefox being its usual hog and various other things including irc going on
1173 2011-02-26 09:05:04 <uni4dfx> that's 9 years not considering the difficulty will change
1174 2011-02-26 09:05:40 <knotwork> well luckily that is generating Martian Bitcoins, using the full computer power of the entire Martian planet known as M5
1175 2011-02-26 09:05:48 <uni4dfx> knotwork there's literally no point in CPU mining, you'll just waste money by using power
1176 2011-02-26 09:05:51 <knotwork> plus maybe also computers on planets known as M4 and M6
1177 2011-02-26 09:06:18 <knotwork> I am using power anyway, plus it is february in canada e.g. not currently summer
1178 2011-02-26 09:06:42 <knotwork> plus like I said I am mining Martian BotCoins, so getting one block each 10 mins on average
1179 2011-02-26 09:07:19 <knotwork> that is entire Freeciv Galactic Milieu's BotCoin generating power at present Galactic Milieu time
1180 2011-02-26 09:07:42 <knotwork> and maybe Martians only ones mining, not having to share with any other nations
1181 2011-02-26 09:07:51 <uni4dfx> except martian bitcoins are worthless
1182 2011-02-26 09:07:59 <knotwork> not to Martians hahahahah
1183 2011-02-26 09:08:14 <dirtyfilthy> hahaha
1184 2011-02-26 09:08:18 <Takyoji> I also don't quite know the meaning of "Martian Bitcoins"
1185 2011-02-26 09:08:29 <knotwork> also, they use Hacker nation software to do it, so genesis block belongs to hacker who authored the software
1186 2011-02-26 09:08:50 <knotwork> so maybe who knows some of the blocks are actually being generated by Hackers or other nations/planets
1187 2011-02-26 09:09:03 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1188 2011-02-26 09:09:09 <knotwork> the Hackers want to help out but not by giving them genuine Hacker bitcoins
1189 2011-02-26 09:09:22 <uni4dfx> ;;bc,calcd 600000 52904
1190 2011-02-26 09:09:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 52904, is 4 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes, and 41 seconds
1191 2011-02-26 09:09:53 <knotwork> Martian Bitcoins are a whole separate currency run by minimally hacked bitcoin{|d} code
1192 2011-02-26 09:10:29 <uni4dfx> so you think they'll one day be used like ordinary bitcoins?
1193 2011-02-26 09:10:46 <knotwork> think "Martial" and also "uh gee sounds vaguely fictional or at least otherworldy"
1194 2011-02-26 09:11:19 <uni4dfx> Martial BotCoins
1195 2011-02-26 09:11:21 <knotwork> no it is a game currency, thus unlike using real currency hopefully not causing games using it to be casinos
1196 2011-02-26 09:11:34 <knotwork> BotCoins, right. MBC
1197 2011-02-26 09:12:28 <knotwork> it can maybe help do the two currencies approach to RPG game economies
1198 2011-02-26 09:12:38 <Takyoji> Dangit, looked for another bitcoin pool that is now allegedly defunct
1199 2011-02-26 09:12:51 <knotwork> pay bitcoin to get into game, but game does not pay out bitcoin as that would make it a casino
1200 2011-02-26 09:13:16 <knotwork> nonetheless, the code of the game currency is ideally suited to eventual trading among players P2P
1201 2011-02-26 09:13:39 <knotwork> if thewn some players on tor traded for real currency well not sure I could do much to prevent that
1202 2011-02-26 09:14:13 <uni4dfx> i think i'll go to a computer shop today and install a few miners on the demo computers there
1203 2011-02-26 09:14:27 <knotwork> I would not be surprised to find players who get rich in Galactic Milieu but find they hate the game
1204 2011-02-26 09:14:44 <knotwork> ending up trading their MBC for Wow gold or whatever other game they want to try next
1205 2011-02-26 09:15:24 <Takyoji> So you can apparently send bitcoin currency, by IP address, correct?
1206 2011-02-26 09:15:32 <knotwork> deprecated
1207 2011-02-26 09:15:41 <knotwork> you send to bitcoin address
1208 2011-02-26 09:16:04 <knotwork> transaction saying so is sent to all your connections they send it to theirs etc
1209 2011-02-26 09:16:25 <knotwork> and miners start trying to solve a block containing that new transaction
1210 2011-02-26 09:16:57 <knotwork> no record of IP address appears in block chain, just bitcoin addresses
1211 2011-02-26 09:17:20 <uni4dfx> how would i install the miner on a store computer that usually has a locked-down version of win7 running
1212 2011-02-26 09:17:20 <knotwork> you can create new bitcoin addresses for yourself at press of a GUI button.
1213 2011-02-26 09:17:42 <knotwork> reocmmended any time you want to charge someone some bitcoins you create a new address for them to send to
1214 2011-02-26 09:17:57 <knotwork> so you know when it arrives not only who sent it but what they sent it for
1215 2011-02-26 09:18:27 <knotwork> uni4dfx if lock down is real, you'd first unlock it presumably.
1216 2011-02-26 09:18:39 <knotwork> stick in a knoppix disk and press reset switch?
1217 2011-02-26 09:18:41 <uni4dfx> do i really need to
1218 2011-02-26 09:18:50 <knotwork> or is reset locked so you'd have to pull wallplug?
1219 2011-02-26 09:18:52 <uni4dfx> well i can't do that, it has to run on there unnoticed
1220 2011-02-26 09:19:04 <knotwork> so define locked down
1221 2011-02-26 09:19:10 <uni4dfx> no admin privileges
1222 2011-02-26 09:19:17 <uni4dfx> so you can't install shit
1223 2011-02-26 09:19:28 <knotwork> oh you'd run it as a user then. but can you even log on as a user?
1224 2011-02-26 09:19:36 <uni4dfx> usually you can
1225 2011-02-26 09:20:01 <knotwork> can you plug in a stick, drag drop package onto desktop, and install on user account desk
1226 2011-02-26 09:20:02 <uni4dfx> but i need to run the miner without having to install the ATI Stream SDK
1227 2011-02-26 09:20:06 <uni4dfx> no
1228 2011-02-26 09:20:09 <knotwork> instead of to admin privs areas of system
1229 2011-02-26 09:20:16 <uni4dfx> i don't think so
1230 2011-02-26 09:20:31 <uni4dfx> and even if, that's a lot of work
1231 2011-02-26 09:20:42 <uni4dfx> i just need to somehow copy a package on there and click run
1232 2011-02-26 09:20:46 <knotwork> disguise as tech rep of manufacturer and give story about to avoid recalling the boxes you have been sent to upgrade them
1233 2011-02-26 09:20:48 <uni4dfx> has to be a quick operation
1234 2011-02-26 09:21:16 <knotwork> would internet cafe boxes be easier than ones in a store?
1235 2011-02-26 09:21:24 <uni4dfx> unlikely
1236 2011-02-26 09:21:32 <uni4dfx> and they probably wouldn't have a good GPU
1237 2011-02-26 09:22:05 <knotwork> make an attract mode they can run on monitors in display window of shop, and include miner in it
1238 2011-02-26 09:22:21 <knotwork> then convince them they will sell more machines with that cool ad mode in window
1239 2011-02-26 09:22:43 <uni4dfx> right
1240 2011-02-26 09:22:44 <knotwork> or even that they can earn real money running adverts screensaver that pays
1241 2011-02-26 09:22:53 <uni4dfx> they're not THAT dumb :P
1242 2011-02-26 09:22:56 <knotwork> but again dont just give them that app also throw in miner
1243 2011-02-26 09:23:11 <knotwork> you really can earn money with screensavers
1244 2011-02-26 09:23:36 <knotwork> admittedly you might make more by using your screensaver ad credits to actually advertise stuff on other
1245 2011-02-26 09:23:50 omglolbbq1 has left ()
1246 2011-02-26 09:23:54 <knotwork> people's boxes all over the world than by simply selling the credits or accepting cahs instead of credits
1247 2011-02-26 09:24:32 <uni4dfx> well technically it's still a screensaver... even though it doesn't exactly save any of the other computer parts (especially the GPU) :P
1248 2011-02-26 09:24:41 <knotwork> wont their GPUs be louder when mining? so they might notice store is full of screaming fans?
1249 2011-02-26 09:24:51 <uni4dfx> nah the stores are noisy
1250 2011-02-26 09:25:09 <uni4dfx> they won't notice as long as the frames aren't too high and there is no noticeable lag
1251 2011-02-26 09:25:20 <uni4dfx> too low*
1252 2011-02-26 09:25:44 <Takyoji> There are BTC to USD exchanges, yus?
1253 2011-02-26 09:25:51 <knotwork> tell them you wont buy the box if it cannot run the demo of the game you want to buy it for
1254 2011-02-26 09:25:52 <uni4dfx> yes
1255 2011-02-26 09:26:10 TD has joined
1256 2011-02-26 09:26:11 <uni4dfx> knotwork i don't plan on telling them anything :D
1257 2011-02-26 09:26:13 <knotwork> so install the "demo" find it isnt quite good enough box, and "uninstall" it
1258 2011-02-26 09:26:44 <uni4dfx> oh yea
1259 2011-02-26 09:27:00 <uni4dfx> "do you have something with a better GPU, i don't think this one will suffice"
1260 2011-02-26 09:27:09 <Takyoji> So, in general, what would be a reason for numerous people to transfer part of their funds to BTC, and exchange currency in BTC in comparison to USD-based electronic payment systems?
1261 2011-02-26 09:27:32 <uni4dfx> Takyoji the BTC value is rising
1262 2011-02-26 09:27:59 <knotwork> Takyoji: because USD is a PITA to use online. chargeback hell for one thing.
1263 2011-02-26 09:28:31 <knotwork> cannot sell anything for USD that isn't basically a throwaway item as if you do scammer will simply do chargeback
1264 2011-02-26 09:28:38 <knotwork> after taking delivery of the item
1265 2011-02-26 09:29:27 <knotwork> case in point: selling bitcoins. or porn site memberships. or live video chats with attractive duct taped hamsters or whatever
1266 2011-02-26 09:29:37 <Takyoji> and also, there wouldn't be as much interest a bank would make through a transaction, in comparison to BTC, correct?
1267 2011-02-26 09:30:07 <knotwork> well yeah, compare default 0.01 BTC fee with paypal's fee schedule
1268 2011-02-26 09:30:50 <knotwork> and paypal is cheap compared to some "solutions" that might eat 18% of a $450 you try to send from
1269 2011-02-26 09:30:55 <knotwork> New Zealand to Australia
1270 2011-02-26 09:31:41 <knotwork> you could buy a lot of really nice energy drink rootbeer with what otherwise fees would eat
1271 2011-02-26 09:32:13 <knotwork> so its simple, wanna eat fees or drink healthy energy drink? no-brainer? ;)
1272 2011-02-26 09:32:48 <knotwork> (old Earth saying though "Martia{n|l} Intelligence is an Oxy Moron")
1273 2011-02-26 09:33:46 <Takyoji> I'm curious if taxation has any relation with Bitcoin
1274 2011-02-26 09:34:21 <Takyoji> Then again, I'm of minimal financial knowledge anyway. xP
1275 2011-02-26 09:34:21 <knotwork> oh yes certainly. if you actually make money / earn real goods profit more than you spent on bitcoin
1276 2011-02-26 09:34:40 <knotwork> by using bitcoin then for sure that real profit could be taxable.
1277 2011-02-26 09:35:10 <knotwork> also its possible if you bought energy drink there would be your local sales tax added on the price
1278 2011-02-26 09:36:15 midnightmagic_ has joined
1279 2011-02-26 09:36:16 midnightmagic_ has quit (Changing host)
1280 2011-02-26 09:36:16 midnightmagic_ has joined
1281 2011-02-26 09:36:19 <knotwork> if I buy the drinks myself at wholesale, I am charged tax as if I am going to sell it (or use it myself) at retail price
1282 2011-02-26 09:36:32 midnightmagic_ is now known as mmagic
1283 2011-02-26 09:36:37 <knotwork> if I want the difference back I have to file saying hey I paid too much tax on that stuff
1284 2011-02-26 09:37:41 <knotwork> but if a customer has user account set up on the website and I tell it that customer gets discount on that item,
1285 2011-02-26 09:37:52 <knotwork> I think the tax is then based on that price
1286 2011-02-26 09:38:08 <knotwork> if it even applies sales tax based on shipping address for them
1287 2011-02-26 09:38:15 <Takyoji> By the way, I should be able to buy BTC through Bitcoin-central.net, correct, or?
1288 2011-02-26 09:38:36 <knotwork> its possible it might just assume its up to them to tell their local sales tax people they bought stuff on web and thus owe tax
1289 2011-02-26 09:39:04 <knotwork> or on #bitcoin-otc "over the counter"
1290 2011-02-26 09:39:16 <dirtyfilthy> Takyoji: https://mtgox.com/ is the big one
1291 2011-02-26 09:39:17 <knotwork> or few other websites
1292 2011-02-26 09:39:38 <mmagic> mtgox requires you first acquire liberty reserve dollars i believe
1293 2011-02-26 09:39:46 <mmagic> or does he let you buy LR "credit" directly now?
1294 2011-02-26 09:39:48 <Keefe> Takyoji: getting fiat currency into the exchanges is the difficult part
1295 2011-02-26 09:40:27 <knotwork> see like I said, (actually, implied by saying usd) fiat currency is a PITA
1296 2011-02-26 09:40:57 <Keefe> if you have a large amount like $1000, you can ask mtgox for options that don't go through LR first
1297 2011-02-26 09:41:17 <Keefe> for smaller amounts, ask around in #bitcoin-otc
1298 2011-02-26 09:41:36 <knotwork> you could instead earn bitcoin by doing commission based sales of energy drink for me... ;)
1299 2011-02-26 09:42:49 <Keefe> you can easily, freely, and quickly, move BTC around, in and out of exchanges, etc
1300 2011-02-26 09:43:05 <knotwork> yep, its the fiat stuff that causes the pain :)
1301 2011-02-26 09:43:14 <Keefe> it's the USD (or other national currency) part that's harder
1302 2011-02-26 09:43:20 <knotwork> BTC is nice and smooth and easy
1303 2011-02-26 09:43:22 <Keefe> like he said :)
1304 2011-02-26 09:43:54 <RBecker> ;;bc,stats
1305 2011-02-26 09:43:57 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110583 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 296 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 7 hours, 9 minutes, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 53243.68387776
1306 2011-02-26 09:44:40 <genjix> Keefe: would you send me 0.5 btc to 1KyZ9WHksec4VT9yfnLYK8R38kZ88unyoM ? I spent all my BTC and need to send an urgent SMS... none of the free services work.
1307 2011-02-26 09:45:20 <Keefe> do i get the 0.5 back soon?
1308 2011-02-26 09:45:25 <genjix> no
1309 2011-02-26 09:46:09 <Takyoji> So if I were to just get like 30 BTC, it would be more suitable/convenient for #bitcoin-otc rather than using MtGox/BitCoin-Central?
1310 2011-02-26 09:46:27 <Keefe> yes
1311 2011-02-26 09:46:29 <knotwork> probably, since Keefe is right here
1312 2011-02-26 09:46:34 <Keefe> heh
1313 2011-02-26 09:46:48 <knotwork> similarly if nanotube was right here
1314 2011-02-26 09:47:21 <genjix> so can you send 0.5 btc plz? i've donated more than that to new bitcoin users before...
1315 2011-02-26 09:47:26 <Keefe> actually may be better with nanotube as i no longer accept paypal
1316 2011-02-26 09:47:35 <mmagic> Keefe: why not?
1317 2011-02-26 09:47:50 <dirtyfilthy> genjix: i just took pity on you
1318 2011-02-26 09:47:51 <Keefe> they caught on to me "abusing" the personal payments feature
1319 2011-02-26 09:47:58 <genjix> thanks dirtyfilthy
1320 2011-02-26 09:48:04 <Takyoji> otherwise where does the value of BTC truly come from, for it to have a conversion between USD/EUR?
1321 2011-02-26 09:48:16 <genjix> dirtyfilthy: i spent all my btc on a new laptop but the guy is asking for an sms for my name
1322 2011-02-26 09:48:19 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3451.0
1323 2011-02-26 09:48:36 <genjix> think of it like you're making a small donation towards bitcoin development
1324 2011-02-26 09:48:48 <knotwork> Takyoji did you visit bitcoin faucet yet to get a free 0.05 bitcoin to play with?
1325 2011-02-26 09:48:53 <dirtyfilthy> haha, ok :)
1326 2011-02-26 09:49:01 <Takyoji> Yes, I have 0.05 BTC currently
1327 2011-02-26 09:49:33 <mmagic> Keefe: ?! really?
1328 2011-02-26 09:49:57 <Keefe> yep, now they force the ~3% fee on all payments received
1329 2011-02-26 09:50:18 <Keefe> to that account i use
1330 2011-02-26 09:51:02 <mmagic> huh. so no TOS violation then. cool, I always get dinged with the 3% regardless..
1331 2011-02-26 09:51:06 <Keefe> i might someday take the chance and open another, but i'm afraid they'd do something bad to me if they notice again
1332 2011-02-26 09:51:08 <knotwork> I have seventy something Amazon commissions I think since years back when website traffic dried up
1333 2011-02-26 09:51:26 <knotwork> its annoying it just sits there they wont pay out until $100 or someting like that
1334 2011-02-26 09:51:37 <Keefe> and since i use paypal for business (with a different account) i'm vulnerable
1335 2011-02-26 09:51:49 <knotwork> or maybe the seventy-something and $100 is adsense and amazon is lower balance and minimum to get paid
1336 2011-02-26 09:52:08 <Keefe> besides, accepting paypal is risky period because of chargebacks and stolen accounts
1337 2011-02-26 09:52:20 <knotwork> maybe I should offer Amazon products as well as Amway ones until I earn enough to get what Amazon already owes me
1338 2011-02-26 09:52:43 <Keefe> i'd accept it from people i trusted, and small amounts like $20 from new people that didn't look too shady
1339 2011-02-26 09:52:55 <knotwork> plus, Amazon has the nerve to insist I have to have credit card to try their cloud, whilst all along *they* owe *me* money!
1340 2011-02-26 09:53:28 <Keefe> now, i just ask for other payment methods, like dwolla and cash deposited to my bank
1341 2011-02-26 09:54:13 mmagic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1342 2011-02-26 09:54:32 <knotwork> both Amazon and Google have micropayment system but neither actually offer to pay the commissions they owe with it!
1343 2011-02-26 09:54:48 edcba has quit (Quit: leaving)
1344 2011-02-26 09:55:10 larsivi has joined
1345 2011-02-26 09:57:28 mmagic has joined
1346 2011-02-26 09:58:44 <knotwork> Takyoji is there something specific you want 30 BTC to buy or is it just you want to shelter some of your funds
1347 2011-02-26 09:59:03 <knotwork> in bitcoin so they aren't in fiat currency being eroded by inflation?
1348 2011-02-26 09:59:48 <Takyoji> shelter, yes, and tinker with and so on.
1349 2011-02-26 09:59:56 <knotwork> I could sell you a $30 something and give you back 10 20 maybe even 30% in bitcoin as discount
1350 2011-02-26 10:00:29 <mmagic> lol, bitcoin as a shelter? hilarious.. :)
1351 2011-02-26 10:01:29 <knotwork> hmm I'd still be liable to chargebacks though, as many products have up to 180 day no questions asked empty carton warranty
1352 2011-02-26 10:01:47 <knotwork> so no I think selling for bitcoin is much better
1353 2011-02-26 10:02:22 <mmagic> definitely shifts responsibility back to buyer, that's for sure.
1354 2011-02-26 10:02:27 <knotwork> customer still gets warranty but I get the bitcoins without chargebacks
1355 2011-02-26 10:03:13 <knotwork> if they demand refund they get is as cheque in their local fiat currency
1356 2011-02-26 10:07:03 <knotwork> long past sleeptime, gnite
1357 2011-02-26 10:07:53 grondilu has joined
1358 2011-02-26 10:09:14 <grondilu> I've maid a paiement and it's still "0/unconfirmed". It would be nice if I could have more info. Something like "resending transaction order in XX seconds"
1359 2011-02-26 10:09:50 <grondilu> s/maid/made/
1360 2011-02-26 10:12:53 JaredW_ has joined
1361 2011-02-26 10:13:17 sc8nt4u has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1362 2011-02-26 10:13:28 <grondilu> isn't there a way to force resending of a transaction ?
1363 2011-02-26 10:15:10 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1364 2011-02-26 10:15:58 BlueMatt has joined
1365 2011-02-26 10:15:58 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
1366 2011-02-26 10:15:58 BlueMatt has joined
1367 2011-02-26 10:16:18 <grondilu> ah nevermind
1368 2011-02-26 10:16:20 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1369 2011-02-26 10:19:05 checksum has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1370 2011-02-26 10:22:27 Ratchet has joined
1371 2011-02-26 10:23:42 <TD> hmm, nearly time for another jump in difficulty
1372 2011-02-26 10:23:45 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1373 2011-02-26 10:26:46 ArtForz has joined
1374 2011-02-26 10:28:37 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
1375 2011-02-26 10:28:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110586 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 293 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 7 hours, and 33 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 53134.33905308
1376 2011-02-26 10:33:18 <mmagic> good lord..
1377 2011-02-26 10:33:57 <mmagic> okay, mining rigs.. hold out for just another few months and then it won't matter any more..
1378 2011-02-26 10:34:42 noagendamarket has joined
1379 2011-02-26 10:36:40 <Ratchet> hi. I just have set up poclbm. What does happen if it finds a block? will it transfer the btc to the bitcoind it's running on?
1380 2011-02-26 10:38:36 <sipa> yes, conceptually
1381 2011-02-26 10:38:50 <genjix> MT`AwAy: hey
1382 2011-02-26 10:39:01 <MT`AwAy> genjix: ?
1383 2011-02-26 10:39:07 <Diablo-D3> Ratchet: the miner doesnt produce btc
1384 2011-02-26 10:39:10 <sipa> if it finds a block, it tells this to bitcoind
1385 2011-02-26 10:39:12 <genjix> smsz is giving me an error :p
1386 2011-02-26 10:39:17 <Diablo-D3> Ratchet: blocks are returned to the client, and it tries to get coins out of them
1387 2011-02-26 10:39:26 <Ratchet> ah ok, thx
1388 2011-02-26 10:39:29 <Diablo-D3> Ratchet: the miner knows nothing of the bitcoin process.
1389 2011-02-26 10:39:38 <MT`AwAy> genjix: show me the target number in pv
1390 2011-02-26 10:40:05 <Ratchet> Diablo-D3: thanks for the info
1391 2011-02-26 10:44:24 sbc has joined
1392 2011-02-26 10:44:36 sbc has quit (Client Quit)
1393 2011-02-26 10:47:27 helmut has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1394 2011-02-26 10:49:10 Sirius has joined
1395 2011-02-26 10:49:19 applecart has joined
1396 2011-02-26 10:49:57 <applecart> Hi, I've generated my first block. Could someone give me an idea of how long it should take for the bitcoins to appear in my account?
1397 2011-02-26 10:50:39 JaredW_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1398 2011-02-26 10:51:40 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
1399 2011-02-26 10:51:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110591 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 288 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 6 hours, 28 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 53179.07655733
1400 2011-02-26 10:53:31 <applecart> I've searched the forums, but couldn't find an answer
1401 2011-02-26 10:54:40 <JFK911> see it counting down from 120
1402 2011-02-26 10:54:45 <JFK911> after it gets to 0 the btc are yours
1403 2011-02-26 10:56:34 * molecular found his first blocks today
1404 2011-02-26 10:57:04 <applecart> the '50 generated in XX more blocks?
1405 2011-02-26 10:57:15 <molecular> yep
1406 2011-02-26 10:57:23 <applecart> great thanks :)
1407 2011-02-26 10:58:37 <molecular> wow, slush is close to 100Gh/s
1408 2011-02-26 10:58:41 <molecular> 92
1409 2011-02-26 10:58:55 <slush> molecular: no, it's hashmeter bug
1410 2011-02-26 10:59:01 <molecular> oh, really?
1411 2011-02-26 10:59:03 <slush> is constantly around 70 ghash
1412 2011-02-26 10:59:05 <molecular> ok
1413 2011-02-26 10:59:27 <molecular> I left your pool 2 days ago
1414 2011-02-26 10:59:33 <molecular> finally found the balls to mine solo
1415 2011-02-26 10:59:37 <Diablo-D3> lol
1416 2011-02-26 10:59:40 <molecular> thanks for your service, it's been great
1417 2011-02-26 10:59:41 <slush> hehe :)
1418 2011-02-26 10:59:42 <Diablo-D3> Im going to make my own pool
1419 2011-02-26 10:59:54 <Diablo-D3> with hookers and poker and whatever Bender said because Im too lazy to google the quote
1420 2011-02-26 11:00:01 <molecular> lol
1421 2011-02-26 11:00:06 <molecular> can I join?
1422 2011-02-26 11:00:10 <Ratchet> it was blackjack, not poker ;-)
1423 2011-02-26 11:00:13 <noagendamarket> dont make a pool make a jacuzzi
1424 2011-02-26 11:00:15 <Diablo-D3> Ratchet: right.
1425 2011-02-26 11:01:33 <Diablo-D3> molecular: you can join it as soon as Im done writing the software
1426 2011-02-26 11:01:37 <Diablo-D3> it'll be better than slush's
1427 2011-02-26 11:01:42 <Diablo-D3> and not suffer from all the crap his does
1428 2011-02-26 11:02:38 <applecart> what's wrong with slush's pool?
1429 2011-02-26 11:03:08 <Takyoji> Isn't it no longer active?
1430 2011-02-26 11:07:29 Myckel has joined
1431 2011-02-26 11:07:29 Myckel has quit (Changing host)
1432 2011-02-26 11:07:29 Myckel has joined
1433 2011-02-26 11:10:12 <Diablo-D3> its still active but he isnt letting new people in
1434 2011-02-26 11:23:12 devon_hillard has joined
1435 2011-02-26 11:25:43 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1436 2011-02-26 11:31:24 Takyoji has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1437 2011-02-26 11:32:18 <mmagic> i wonder if 100GHash/s is going to be added again for the next difficulty
1438 2011-02-26 11:50:15 Zarutian has joined
1439 2011-02-26 11:52:33 ZenMondo has joined
1440 2011-02-26 11:55:53 applecart has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1441 2011-02-26 12:00:38 <BlueMatt> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3895.0
1442 2011-02-26 12:01:30 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1443 2011-02-26 12:02:32 <ZenMondo> the only problem I see with that is that Bitcoin payments are not instantaneous it takes a while for them to propagate through the network.
1444 2011-02-26 12:03:03 <bd_> They're sort of instantaneous
1445 2011-02-26 12:03:14 <BlueMatt> Yea, but that should only take a couple of seconds (assuming you dont want a confirmation for smaller purchases)
1446 2011-02-26 12:03:16 <bd_> in that, the transaction itself usually gets there fast, but it takes a while before it's confirmed
1447 2011-02-26 12:03:26 <bd_> Most real-world payment networks are even slower
1448 2011-02-26 12:03:30 <BlueMatt> And a webserver can wait a couple of seconds before sending a reply without timing out just fine
1449 2011-02-26 12:03:41 <bd_> credit card networks work on batch processing after all :)
1450 2011-02-26 12:05:39 <lfm> a credit card purchase can be reversed up to 90 days or something
1451 2011-02-26 12:06:37 <BlueMatt> We already know bitcoin is a good idea for online purchases, I just think implementing it at the http level could make it REALLY easy to use
1452 2011-02-26 12:07:26 <lfm> it is implemented at a http/html level by mybitcoin.com
1453 2011-02-26 12:07:46 <BlueMatt> that is a html level
1454 2011-02-26 12:08:01 <lfm> it has a http interface too
1455 2011-02-26 12:08:06 <BlueMatt> I think a browser-level implementation would be nice
1456 2011-02-26 12:08:08 <BlueMatt> it does?
1457 2011-02-26 12:09:01 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1458 2011-02-26 12:09:10 <lfm> so does mygox.com account I beleive
1459 2011-02-26 12:09:25 <BlueMatt> No that is html level
1460 2011-02-26 12:09:26 <lfm> mtgox.com that is
1461 2011-02-26 12:09:30 <BlueMatt> not something in the browser
1462 2011-02-26 12:09:42 <lfm> huh? what do you mean?
1463 2011-02-26 12:09:46 <BlueMatt> ie not something where the browser will create a popup which just says "Do you want to send..."
1464 2011-02-26 12:09:49 molecular has joined
1465 2011-02-26 12:10:00 <BlueMatt> mtgox says please send to address...
1466 2011-02-26 12:10:39 <lfm> you want a store package, they are there if you look around
1467 2011-02-26 12:11:04 <BlueMatt> No I mean something lower level
1468 2011-02-26 12:11:09 <lfm> yes
1469 2011-02-26 12:11:13 <BlueMatt> It would mean you dont have to do anything but a couple clicks
1470 2011-02-26 12:11:18 <BlueMatt> Link?
1471 2011-02-26 12:11:28 <BlueMatt> I haven't seen one anywhere
1472 2011-02-26 12:11:41 <lfm> the store needs to set it up
1473 2011-02-26 12:12:58 <BlueMatt> The difference is that the existing store packages (from mtgox to paypal) say "enter this data" or "please transfer money to this btc address"
1474 2011-02-26 12:13:10 <lfm> shopping cart interface?
1475 2011-02-26 12:13:25 <BlueMatt> But this solution would mean you would just get a popup from your browser that says "Do you want to transfer 0.5BTC to..."
1476 2011-02-26 12:13:38 <BlueMatt> then you click yes and it get transfered withough any effort
1477 2011-02-26 12:13:40 <lfm> so you cant figure out how someone can copy and paste?
1478 2011-02-26 12:13:46 <lfm> too much trouble?
1479 2011-02-26 12:14:09 <BlueMatt> Yes, actually it is
1480 2011-02-26 12:14:33 <BlueMatt> If it weren't why would apple/google/etc be working so hard to make it easier?
1481 2011-02-26 12:15:28 <lfm> well we dont have the army of developers that apple/google/etc have so it might take a while
1482 2011-02-26 12:15:48 <BlueMatt> When it comes to payments of .5 BTC/USD and smaller, it becomes more of an issue of how much effort than how much does it cost
1483 2011-02-26 12:15:59 <lfm> meanwhile copy and paste works fine
1484 2011-02-26 12:16:01 <BlueMatt> lfm: hence the simplicity of the http402 error code
1485 2011-02-26 12:16:11 <BlueMatt> It would actually be REALLY simple to code
1486 2011-02-26 12:16:22 <lfm> well please do it for us then
1487 2011-02-26 12:16:47 <BlueMatt> If I knew anything about browser plugins I would
1488 2011-02-26 12:16:52 <BlueMatt> Its just a suggestion
1489 2011-02-26 12:16:56 <BlueMatt> If you dont agree, fine
1490 2011-02-26 12:17:04 <lfm> if you knew anything about it maybe it wouldnt look so easy
1491 2011-02-26 12:18:47 <molecular> I like the idea, but as suggested, it's not "REALLY simple" to implement... otherwise it would be done by now ;)
1492 2011-02-26 12:19:09 <BlueMatt> True, it has problems
1493 2011-02-26 12:19:18 <BlueMatt> but from a browser-side it is really quite simple
1494 2011-02-26 12:19:33 <molecular> if someone puts a bounty high enough it will be done
1495 2011-02-26 12:19:38 <BlueMatt> The server-side is a bit more complicated...
1496 2011-02-26 12:19:51 <BlueMatt> But no more complicated than existing systems
1497 2011-02-26 12:20:10 <molecular> actually the browser-side is not _that_ simple... you need an accessible bitcoin node to make the transaction
1498 2011-02-26 12:20:31 <BlueMatt> Well from a browser-plugin side it is
1499 2011-02-26 12:20:35 <ZenMondo> Well it would not take just a browser plug in you would have to add server code and good luck getting it through the process to be added to apache
1500 2011-02-26 12:20:38 <BlueMatt> You just have to run the rpc client
1501 2011-02-26 12:20:44 <molecular> well, how does the browser plugin make the transaction?
1502 2011-02-26 12:20:55 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: it wouldnt have to be in apache
1503 2011-02-26 12:21:08 <BlueMatt> It could be done in php, perl, or really any cgi
1504 2011-02-26 12:21:19 <molecular> true, on server-side you can use any script language
1505 2011-02-26 12:21:31 <lfm> molecular we were thinking one of mybitcoin.com or mtgox.com and even possibly 127.0.0.1 would be accesible
1506 2011-02-26 12:21:31 <BlueMatt> molecular: it would have to be pointed to an rpc daemon, true
1507 2011-02-26 12:21:41 <ZenMondo> its the httpd that generates the error code not scripts run by the webserver
1508 2011-02-26 12:21:53 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: not true
1509 2011-02-26 12:21:56 <BlueMatt> both can
1510 2011-02-26 12:22:01 <BlueMatt> but the plugin just has to implement the rpc protocol
1511 2011-02-26 12:22:38 <lfm> BlueMatt: and you figure it is "really simple" to implement a rpc protocol?
1512 2011-02-26 12:22:44 <molecular> BlueMatt, I agree: it's not hard or anything... still a lot of work, though
1513 2011-02-26 12:23:05 <BlueMatt> lfm: not really, but its not *that* complicated
1514 2011-02-26 12:23:23 <BlueMatt> if you are just writing a transfer to address script, rpc isnt very complicated
1515 2011-02-26 12:23:24 <molecular> 'ts not rocket science
1516 2011-02-26 12:23:30 mtgox has joined
1517 2011-02-26 12:23:35 <molecular> but it doesn't write itself
1518 2011-02-26 12:23:39 <BlueMatt> True
1519 2011-02-26 12:23:43 <lfm> you're asking for at least a month of work with no pay,
1520 2011-02-26 12:23:46 <BlueMatt> I wish I knew anything about ff plugins
1521 2011-02-26 12:23:50 <BlueMatt> lfm: not at all
1522 2011-02-26 12:23:57 <BlueMatt> That might take an hour for the plugin
1523 2011-02-26 12:23:57 <lfm> betcha
1524 2011-02-26 12:23:57 <molecular> dude, try google "firefox plugin development"
1525 2011-02-26 12:24:27 <BlueMatt> If someone already knows about plugin development it shouldnt take them more than an hour
1526 2011-02-26 12:24:47 <lfm> BlueMatt: you gotta test it before you unleash it on the public. its useing real money so it needs to be bulletproof
1527 2011-02-26 12:24:55 <molecular> I dont think one can do it in one hour
1528 2011-02-26 12:25:14 <molecular> even someone experienced in plugin dev and bitcoin
1529 2011-02-26 12:25:40 <BlueMatt> Oh come on, the rpc backend needs to know how to use one rpc command (just use an existing js library to do that in maybe 1 minute)
1530 2011-02-26 12:25:50 <BlueMatt> You need a prefs dialog to pick the rpc location
1531 2011-02-26 12:26:00 <molecular> dude, if you so know how easy it is, why not do it yourself
1532 2011-02-26 12:26:30 <lfm> BlueMatt: and you think its real simple to avoid security holes where people or stores might steal your money?
1533 2011-02-26 12:26:31 <BlueMatt> You need a 402 handler which creates a popup and triggers the rpc client
1534 2011-02-26 12:26:47 <BlueMatt> lfm: if its really simple, security isnt very hard
1535 2011-02-26 12:27:29 <BlueMatt> I dont have time this weekend and I know nothing about plugin devel
1536 2011-02-26 12:27:29 <lfm> BlueMatt: well then I dont know why microsoft is sepnding so many years and millions on security if its so simple, sheesh
1537 2011-02-26 12:27:35 <BlueMatt> Plus it was just a suggestion
1538 2011-02-26 12:27:45 <BlueMatt> lfm: because an os isnt simple by definition
1539 2011-02-26 12:27:53 <ZenMondo> Hmm I personally would not trust automation to take coin out of my wallet at this point.
1540 2011-02-26 12:28:09 <BlueMatt> if its only ~100 lines of code, security isnt easy
1541 2011-02-26 12:28:14 <lfm> BlueMatt: and you have a real twisted view of software development
1542 2011-02-26 12:28:15 <BlueMatt> is*
1543 2011-02-26 12:28:22 <BlueMatt> lfm: I disagree
1544 2011-02-26 12:28:44 <BlueMatt> But hell its just a suggestion
1545 2011-02-26 12:28:58 <lfm> yup, just
1546 2011-02-26 12:29:14 <ZenMondo> What software have you written BlueMatt?
1547 2011-02-26 12:30:21 <lfm> crickets?
1548 2011-02-26 12:30:24 <BlueMatt> nothing large, hence I know about securing small scripts
1549 2011-02-26 12:30:39 <BlueMatt> But Im not claiming to be an expert
1550 2011-02-26 12:30:55 <BlueMatt> Seriously if you think it will take you a day to write a 100 line script and make it secure...
1551 2011-02-26 12:31:26 <lfm> I think it would take a month and youd probaly be getting request for help with it for years
1552 2011-02-26 12:31:50 <BlueMatt> I very much disagree
1553 2011-02-26 12:31:57 <lfm> people who "just" want another hour of your time
1554 2011-02-26 12:32:25 <lfm> and wind up churning thru another day
1555 2011-02-26 12:32:45 <BlueMatt> Seriously, chill man it was a suggestion of an implementation for bitcoin which I thought was really quite cool
1556 2011-02-26 12:33:03 <BlueMatt> Maybe you disagree, but I thought it could be really effective
1557 2011-02-26 12:33:42 <lfm> yes, and if no one reacted to your "just a suggestion" you would think it was perfectly reasonable and you would think we were all stupid for not jumping right in and doing it for you
1558 2011-02-26 12:33:56 <BlueMatt> Not at all
1559 2011-02-26 12:34:10 <lfm> well thats how it looks
1560 2011-02-26 12:34:15 <ZenMondo> There are basically two attitudes I find from people who want me to develop for them. 1) What you are doing saying "This is really easy you can knock this out real quick" without actually knowing whats involved and 2) "You will make a lot of money if you just code this for me, I will give you a CUT of my sales"
1561 2011-02-26 12:35:03 <BlueMatt> If no one comments as to why it doesnt work then I would assume no one bothered to spend the time and I would just say fine, there aren't many devels in the bitcoin community who develop for free, whatever
1562 2011-02-26 12:35:05 TD has joined
1563 2011-02-26 12:35:29 <BlueMatt> If people give reasons why it wont work, great I would forget about it
1564 2011-02-26 12:35:58 <BlueMatt> sorry that Im used to the Floss community where good ideas get adopted and developed quickly for free and for the public and not bitcoin community
1565 2011-02-26 12:36:03 <lfm> BlueMatt: actually MOST of the developers involved in bitcoin develop for free
1566 2011-02-26 12:37:52 <BlueMatt> Ok, great then maybe someone will think its a good idea and implement it. Otherwise, fine no one had time and/or thought it was a good idea
1567 2011-02-26 12:38:24 <BlueMatt> Thats fine with me too, I just thought it was a cool idea and maybe could give the bitcoin community a cool feature to show to the world
1568 2011-02-26 12:38:34 <lfm> then there is the marginal utility since mybitcoin.com already has their SCI button out there
1569 2011-02-26 12:38:39 <BlueMatt> well aside from the realy cool tech behind the protocol to begin with
1570 2011-02-26 12:39:44 <BlueMatt> I get it, you think it is complicated and a waste of time. I disagree but whatever maybe others agree with me, maybe no one does. Just thought Id get the idea out there
1571 2011-02-26 12:40:13 <lfm> and I "just" thought you might want some feedback on your idea
1572 2011-02-26 12:40:35 <ZenMondo> OK I may not be giving the amount of thought you would like but just on the surface the problems I see is 1) Generating a 402 HTTP Response 2)raising an event in server side scripts knowing if payment was made 3) Establishing a secure channel for the transfer of coin 4) Tying a transfer to a HTTP session (with identifying characteristics) to what should be an anonymous cash-like transaction...
1573 2011-02-26 12:40:48 <BlueMatt> So far, you haven't given feedback on the idea, except that it is complicated and other solutions exist
1574 2011-02-26 12:41:22 <lfm> and I think its harder then you seem to think
1575 2011-02-26 12:43:08 <ZenMondo> Wow do I kill the channel? why does it get so quiet when I offer "feedback"?
1576 2011-02-26 12:43:10 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: 1. php, perl, any cgi really. 2. this is a problem, true. But the other solutions which exist have solved it and it could be solved with some rpc magic (not *that* easy, but not *that* hard either) 3. HTTPS? 4. cookies, maybe an accout?
1577 2011-02-26 12:43:27 <BlueMatt> because Im typing a response
1578 2011-02-26 12:43:55 <BlueMatt> I do appreciate the feedback, really, I just think you guys are saying NO without thinking it all through
1579 2011-02-26 12:44:00 RichardG has joined
1580 2011-02-26 12:44:03 <BlueMatt> I admit number 2 is a serious problem
1581 2011-02-26 12:44:15 <BlueMatt> But the existing solutions have solved it so...
1582 2011-02-26 12:44:41 Ratchet has left ("Follow the blue rabbit - http://freenetproject.org")
1583 2011-02-26 12:44:42 <TD> the trend over time is away from http level protocol features and towards higher level protocols based on http, html and javascript
1584 2011-02-26 12:44:51 <TD> see how almost nobody uses built in http authentication anymore
1585 2011-02-26 12:44:56 <BlueMatt> this is true
1586 2011-02-26 12:45:02 <TD> instead people roll their own with cookies and javascript
1587 2011-02-26 12:45:10 <BlueMatt> well, maybe we just dont do it at http level, and implement such functions in js?
1588 2011-02-26 12:45:15 <TD> yes
1589 2011-02-26 12:45:28 <TD> some kind of web based payments protocol that integrates with a client side extension would be great
1590 2011-02-26 12:45:42 <TD> a handler for the bitcoin: protocol scheme that works well and takes off would be a good start
1591 2011-02-26 12:45:44 <TD> and not hard to write
1592 2011-02-26 12:46:14 <BlueMatt> thats true
1593 2011-02-26 12:46:23 <TD> somebody could then run a simple website that handles the confirmations stuff for you
1594 2011-02-26 12:46:24 <BlueMatt> maybe not http or js then but a link kto bitcoin:...
1595 2011-02-26 12:46:30 <lfm> and somehow reassure the users that it is not a trojan?
1596 2011-02-26 12:46:48 <TD> well, maybe some JS too in case you don't have support for bitcoin: uris installed. not sure.
1597 2011-02-26 12:46:49 <BlueMatt> lfm: the whole bitcoin client is a trojan by that logic
1598 2011-02-26 12:47:10 <TD> it'd be fairly easy to set up something on appengine whereby a site can redirect to it and say
1599 2011-02-26 12:47:11 <TD> h
1600 2011-02-26 12:47:13 <BlueMatt> TD: well either way it would reqire a plugin so not sure it really matters at that point
1601 2011-02-26 12:47:14 <TD> http redirect to
1602 2011-02-26 12:47:33 <lfm> BlueMatt: did you see the "bitcoin backup service"? TROJAN!
1603 2011-02-26 12:47:40 <TD> https://bitcoin-confirm.appengine.com/?address=abc&token=abc&desturl=abc
1604 2011-02-26 12:47:54 <TD> then this site would present the "Waiting for confirmation" type ui and redirect you back when done
1605 2011-02-26 12:48:04 <ZenMondo> Hmm I don't like the idea of centralizing anything. One of the reason I don't want to use an online wallet service.
1606 2011-02-26 12:48:04 <BlueMatt> lfm: yes I did, but seriously that isnt really a point
1607 2011-02-26 12:48:08 <TD> the crypto needed to do these redirect flows is straightforward
1608 2011-02-26 12:48:12 <TD> ZenMondo: it wouldn't be centralized
1609 2011-02-26 12:48:31 <TD> ZenMondo: anyone could run such a website. it'd just be a convenience for businesses that want to accept bitcoins but don't want to run a full node
1610 2011-02-26 12:48:41 <lfm> BlueMatt: it would be dead trivial for a "blackhat" to create something like that that took more than it was suposed to
1611 2011-02-26 12:48:43 <BlueMatt> lfm: any app could be a trojan, how do you convince users of anything?
1612 2011-02-26 12:49:02 <TD> lfm: at least on the Chrome extensions store there are mitigations against that sort of thing
1613 2011-02-26 12:49:16 <TD> so if you write a Chrome extension that does this, it'd have some trust from being on the store, having ratings, etc
1614 2011-02-26 12:50:55 <lfm> something to slip in a little "service fee" but only under certain conditions
1615 2011-02-26 12:52:02 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
1616 2011-02-26 12:52:04 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110611 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 268 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 4 hours, 21 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 53264.81415797
1617 2011-02-26 12:52:25 * TD remembers the good old days when difficulty was 1
1618 2011-02-26 12:52:33 <JFK911> i had decent luck today
1619 2011-02-26 12:55:07 <lfm> JFK911: wtg
1620 2011-02-26 12:55:44 <JFK911> 6 blocks this week w only 400mhash
1621 2011-02-26 12:55:53 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 400000
1622 2011-02-26 12:55:55 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 11.0349040045 BTC per day and 0.459787666856 BTC per hour.
1623 2011-02-26 13:01:57 <lfm> JFK911: which miner(s) are you using?
1624 2011-02-26 13:02:46 <JFK911> poclbm * 2 instances
1625 2011-02-26 13:03:02 <lfm> cool
1626 2011-02-26 13:06:04 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1627 2011-02-26 13:06:42 skeledrew has joined
1628 2011-02-26 13:28:23 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1629 2011-02-26 13:33:15 gasteve has joined
1630 2011-02-26 13:40:18 <comboy> JFK911: which sdk?
1631 2011-02-26 13:47:16 <lfm> comboy probably 2.1 Id guess
1632 2011-02-26 13:47:24 <JFK911> app 2.2
1633 2011-02-26 13:47:31 <lfm> oh, ok
1634 2011-02-26 13:47:33 <JFK911> let me doublecheck
1635 2011-02-26 13:47:58 <JFK911> ati stream sdk developer 2.2.0.0
1636 2011-02-26 13:48:14 <comboy> I'm on diablo miner currently, I've been using poclbm earlier but now when I tried it error seems to tell me that it won't work with sdk 2.1
1637 2011-02-26 13:48:28 <JFK911> i tried 2.1 and then nothing would work
1638 2011-02-26 13:48:35 <JFK911> maybe i forgot to reboot or something
1639 2011-02-26 13:48:41 <JFK911> anyway i decided it wasnt worth it and reinstalled 2.2
1640 2011-02-26 13:48:46 <comboy> no I guess pyopencl needs 2.2+
1641 2011-02-26 13:48:47 <lfm> shouldnt have to reboot for sdk
1642 2011-02-26 13:49:07 <lfm> I use 2.1 with poclbm
1643 2011-02-26 13:49:13 <comboy> yeah, if you only have LD_LBIRARY_PATH and ATISDKROOT set
1644 2011-02-26 13:49:20 <comboy> lfm: oh
1645 2011-02-26 13:49:37 <comboy> lfm: HEAD version?
1646 2011-02-26 13:49:49 <comboy> lfm: and which pyopencl version?
1647 2011-02-26 13:49:50 <Diablo-D3> er?
1648 2011-02-26 13:49:50 <lfm> downloaded from ati
1649 2011-02-26 13:49:54 <Diablo-D3> 2.1 works fine with poclbm
1650 2011-02-26 13:50:07 <lfm> poclbm downloaded yesterday
1651 2011-02-26 13:50:09 <knotwork> two rreally simple ways (1) "this type of page fire up that external viewer (bitcoin client as viewer)
1652 2011-02-26 13:50:37 <comboy> then I must be doing something wrong, lfm can you tell me which pyopencl version you have? 0.96?
1653 2011-02-26 13:50:43 <knotwork> (2) urls starting with bitcoin: instead of http: or ftp: etc fire up that external app to handle them
1654 2011-02-26 13:50:52 <JFK911> oh im on windows
1655 2011-02-26 13:51:10 <JFK911> using the published py2exe binary
1656 2011-02-26 13:51:18 <knotwork> go into your browser's config, maybe hidden in registry if using windows, and find where are listed
1657 2011-02-26 13:51:31 <comboy> I'm on linux
1658 2011-02-26 13:51:44 <knotwork> either the external viewers per mime type or the external engines per whatever: prefix of a url
1659 2011-02-26 13:52:33 <knotwork> point one or both at bitcoin or bitcoind maybe via awk or sed to re-arrange rest of url into command line args
1660 2011-02-26 13:52:41 <comboy> Diablo-D3: quick question - is "Attempt found" in your miner equal to solving blck with difficulty 1?
1661 2011-02-26 13:53:11 <knotwork> then make either mime type at webserver or simply use the whatever: (like bitcoin: or btc: or whatever) in link on page
1662 2011-02-26 13:53:15 <JFK911> i might try diablo miner, im mad at python because it sucks
1663 2011-02-26 13:53:21 <Diablo-D3> comboy: yes
1664 2011-02-26 13:53:22 <JFK911> i have to manually clock down my cpu
1665 2011-02-26 13:53:28 <Diablo-D3> comboy: which is hilarious when you're on a pool
1666 2011-02-26 13:53:29 <JFK911> otherwise it runs at full power
1667 2011-02-26 13:53:41 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: the 100% cpu usage bug?
1668 2011-02-26 13:53:48 <JFK911> well 100% of a core
1669 2011-02-26 13:53:54 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: thats part of stream sdk 2.2/2.3
1670 2011-02-26 13:53:58 <Diablo-D3> it effects all apps
1671 2011-02-26 13:54:00 <knotwork> that part that is not so simple is the human engineering: how to get user to config it into their browser
1672 2011-02-26 13:54:10 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: only effects on linux though, windows doesnt seem to have it
1673 2011-02-26 13:54:16 <comboy> Diablo-D3: thx, nice thing you put these attempt found infos in debug
1674 2011-02-26 13:54:17 <JFK911> im using windows
1675 2011-02-26 13:54:22 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: my miner emits an environment variable to "fix" that, but you suffer from loss of speed
1676 2011-02-26 13:54:25 <knotwork> a plugin might do that, or a wolhe install thing like maybe a java that is autolaunch from web type java
1677 2011-02-26 13:54:26 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: huh.
1678 2011-02-26 13:54:35 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: Im not aware of anyone getting that on windows. try mine.
1679 2011-02-26 13:54:38 <JFK911> python always hogged cpu for me no matter where i have used it
1680 2011-02-26 13:54:40 <comboy> JFK911: please be more precise and if you must say poclbm sux not that python sux :>
1681 2011-02-26 13:54:43 <JFK911> im thinking about it Diablo-D3
1682 2011-02-26 13:54:50 <lfm> comboy: pyopencl-0.92.tar.gz
1683 2011-02-26 13:54:59 <Diablo-D3> comboy: python sucks
1684 2011-02-26 13:55:04 <comboy> lfm: thanks, same here, I wonder what I'm doing wrong
1685 2011-02-26 13:55:06 <Diablo-D3> I can say that in a fully qualified manner
1686 2011-02-26 13:55:20 <JFK911> anyway the smbus stuff says my cpu eating 20watts now, with the manual rules i applied
1687 2011-02-26 13:55:22 <comboy> Diablo-D3: I'm a ruby lover, but python is great, really
1688 2011-02-26 13:55:23 <Diablo-D3> knotwork: config what, btw?
1689 2011-02-26 13:55:29 <JFK911> normally i get same mining speed when cpu eats 140watts
1690 2011-02-26 13:56:18 <comboy> Diablo-D3: but you are a java coder, I forgive you ]:->
1691 2011-02-26 13:56:20 <JFK911> comboy: it might be nice to write for but i think python seriously is a burden on the world because it seems to waste cpu -> waste power -> emit carbon -> delaying the ice age 20,000 years
1692 2011-02-26 13:56:37 <lfm> JFK911: how you reading watts? what motherboard is it? I seem to need to ready watts at plug with external device
1693 2011-02-26 13:56:50 <JFK911> when u have 1 programmer and 10000000 users the "burden" outweighs the "savings"
1694 2011-02-26 13:57:04 <JFK911> lfm: gigabyte X58A board. using cpuz hwmonitor
1695 2011-02-26 13:57:07 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: well, I doubt this is python's fault
1696 2011-02-26 13:57:14 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: thats why you need to try my miner
1697 2011-02-26 13:57:14 <comboy> JFK911: wow, then write everything in asm ;)
1698 2011-02-26 13:57:26 <JFK911> lfm: the ati gpu's report same statistic
1699 2011-02-26 13:57:30 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: if my miner doesnt do it, its pyopencl fucking up; if my miner does, its stream sdk
1700 2011-02-26 13:57:33 <JFK911> comboy: i have a tool for that, he's called "compiler"
1701 2011-02-26 13:57:45 <knotwork> Diablo-D3 people were on about how to make browser do bitcoin payments more-automatically
1702 2011-02-26 13:57:47 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: ok i'll let you know what happens
1703 2011-02-26 13:58:04 <Diablo-D3> knotwork: thats easy... make a plugin to do it.
1704 2011-02-26 13:58:07 <JFK911> banging out assembly is for interrupt service
1705 2011-02-26 13:58:13 <comboy> JFK911: ever heard of VM and JIT? ;)
1706 2011-02-26 13:58:18 <lfm> JFK911: hmm, I seen volts and temp but not watts, maybe isnt feature on 5770. Ill look again
1707 2011-02-26 13:58:26 <knotwork> if for you making a plugin is easy, do please whip it up
1708 2011-02-26 13:58:27 <Diablo-D3> knotwork: bitcoin could also just automatically hijack common browser settings on common OSes and not need the plugin
1709 2011-02-26 13:58:37 <JFK911> lfm: my mistake. it shows volts
1710 2011-02-26 13:58:41 <JFK911> for the gpu's
1711 2011-02-26 13:58:45 <JFK911> not watts
1712 2011-02-26 13:58:48 <lfm> k
1713 2011-02-26 13:58:53 <Diablo-D3> btw, watt monitors are somewhat suspect
1714 2011-02-26 13:59:00 <JFK911> Diablo-D3: im sure they are just estimate
1715 2011-02-26 13:59:01 <Diablo-D3> the easiest way is to just _buy a killawatt_
1716 2011-02-26 13:59:06 <knotwork> I dont even know yet how to make scriptmonkey do things let alone how to make an actual plugin
1717 2011-02-26 13:59:07 <JFK911> i have a kill-a-watt
1718 2011-02-26 13:59:11 <JFK911> i havent hooked it up to the pc yet
1719 2011-02-26 13:59:19 <JFK911> mining would be interrupted
1720 2011-02-26 13:59:24 <lfm> hehe
1721 2011-02-26 13:59:26 <comboy> hah :D
1722 2011-02-26 13:59:26 <Diablo-D3> heh
1723 2011-02-26 13:59:30 <knotwork> maybe I mean greasemonkey
1724 2011-02-26 13:59:34 <comboy> JFK911: mine was waiting 4 days too :))
1725 2011-02-26 13:59:41 flok99 has joined
1726 2011-02-26 13:59:43 <comboy> I didn't want to kill uptime
1727 2011-02-26 13:59:48 flok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1728 2011-02-26 13:59:49 flok99 is now known as flok
1729 2011-02-26 13:59:55 <Diablo-D3> knotwork: but yeah, a plugin would be our best bet, and the whole idea is stupid
1730 2011-02-26 14:00:08 <Diablo-D3> knotwork: what you really want is a paypal-like merchant gateway for mybitcoin
1731 2011-02-26 14:00:16 <lfm> I got one of those belkin watt meter thingies and watt meter in some UPS's . the UPS reading are indeed suspect
1732 2011-02-26 14:00:29 <knotwork> just tell them to wave their android at their monitor to automatically pay :)
1733 2011-02-26 14:00:30 <JFK911> id think the UPS would measure same way as kill a watt
1734 2011-02-26 14:00:34 <JFK911> i saw same arrangement in a battery charger
1735 2011-02-26 14:00:35 <Diablo-D3> lfm: good upses have proper reading
1736 2011-02-26 14:00:46 <JFK911> the killawatt is $14
1737 2011-02-26 14:00:48 <Diablo-D3> lfm: by good, I mean like $500 and up ones for enterprise usage
1738 2011-02-26 14:00:56 <JFK911> or $19
1739 2011-02-26 14:01:01 <JFK911> smth ridiculously insignificant
1740 2011-02-26 14:01:07 <lfm> Diablo-D3: ok not gonna happen
1741 2011-02-26 14:01:16 <Diablo-D3> well, I already have one sitting under my desk
1742 2011-02-26 14:01:23 <lfm> drool
1743 2011-02-26 14:01:29 <Diablo-D3> but I dont have the computer shit plugged in
1744 2011-02-26 14:01:33 <JFK911> more free heat
1745 2011-02-26 14:01:36 <Diablo-D3> lfm: well, its an insurance policy
1746 2011-02-26 14:01:44 <JFK911> there are PDU's that show current consumption too
1747 2011-02-26 14:01:50 <JFK911> you can snmp/web view them apparently
1748 2011-02-26 14:02:00 <knotwork> (what you have no adnroid? okay then copy/paste to automatically buy android too while doing purchase ;))
1749 2011-02-26 14:02:02 <Diablo-D3> its a double converting always online UPS plugged into a Brickwall surge protector
1750 2011-02-26 14:02:03 <JFK911> and switch them on and off
1751 2011-02-26 14:02:12 <Diablo-D3> JFK911: yeah, but those go beyond just normal power strips
1752 2011-02-26 14:02:27 <Diablo-D3> they're common in DCs for force rebooting remotely
1753 2011-02-26 14:04:05 <JFK911> ive seen them cheap on surplus market
1754 2011-02-26 14:04:18 <JFK911> hackerspace got some to use for lamp switching
1755 2011-02-26 14:04:27 <Diablo-D3> surplus market == they fell off a truck in china
1756 2011-02-26 14:04:29 <lfm> hehe overkill
1757 2011-02-26 14:04:35 <JFK911> yeah why cant we have light switches
1758 2011-02-26 14:04:37 <Diablo-D3> and yeah, thats overkill, just use X10 remote shit
1759 2011-02-26 14:04:39 <JFK911> its gotta be all complicated.
1760 2011-02-26 14:04:43 <JFK911> x10 isnt really that good
1761 2011-02-26 14:04:46 <JFK911> insteon is sweet
1762 2011-02-26 14:04:54 <Diablo-D3> x10 sucks, but it works for a lot of dumb hacker shit
1763 2011-02-26 14:04:56 <JFK911> also that site has 3 phase
1764 2011-02-26 14:05:02 <JFK911> i donno how x10 would work across phases
1765 2011-02-26 14:05:07 <Diablo-D3> hah
1766 2011-02-26 14:05:21 <Diablo-D3> 204v straight to your balls
1767 2011-02-26 14:05:37 <JFK911> delta wye, seriously?
1768 2011-02-26 14:06:08 <gasteve> I'm trying to compile bitcoin on MacOSX and following the build instructions, but when I get to the point of finally compiling bitcoin itself, it seems to complain that some libraries don't support the target architecture...the first complaint is about bdb (libdb_cxx-4.8.a)
1769 2011-02-26 14:06:09 <lfm> JFK911: ya I think x10 assumes pretty simple wireing
1770 2011-02-26 14:06:21 <JFK911> x10 sell phase repeaters but they arent cheap
1771 2011-02-26 14:06:26 <JFK911> like $75 when the switches cost $4
1772 2011-02-26 14:06:48 <JFK911> there is this square-d thing there
1773 2011-02-26 14:06:56 <gasteve> anyone here have any tips (instructions didn't mention anything about compiling bdb for both 64bit and 32bit)
1774 2011-02-26 14:06:58 <JFK911> that is like an industrial kill-a-watt in a giant nema box
1775 2011-02-26 14:07:01 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: you're using the wrong bdb for one
1776 2011-02-26 14:07:07 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: you _must_ use 4.7. period.
1777 2011-02-26 14:07:17 <gasteve> I first tried 5.1 (but same issue)
1778 2011-02-26 14:07:23 <JFK911> apparently it's networkable, but it keeps tabs on the loads, watts, w-h, kva, powerfactor, etc
1779 2011-02-26 14:07:24 <Diablo-D3> and compiling universal binaries on osx is a pita
1780 2011-02-26 14:07:33 <gasteve> the osx instructions used 4.8
1781 2011-02-26 14:07:35 <Diablo-D3> it should be only attempted by professionals
1782 2011-02-26 14:07:37 <lfm> gasteve: osx for intel cpu? ya read to build-osx.txt prerequisits again
1783 2011-02-26 14:07:43 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: its full of shit. use 4.7
1784 2011-02-26 14:07:53 <gasteve> ok
1785 2011-02-26 14:08:00 <gasteve> I'll give that a try
1786 2011-02-26 14:08:02 <gasteve> thx
1787 2011-02-26 14:08:40 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: but like I said, if you're building universal binaries, ALL of your libs need to be universal too
1788 2011-02-26 14:08:45 <Diablo-D3> which is an absolute pita
1789 2011-02-26 14:08:57 <gasteve> yep
1790 2011-02-26 14:10:09 <gasteve> maybe my first contribution will be to update the osx build instructions ;)
1791 2011-02-26 14:10:56 <Diablo-D3> your first contribution should be killing Steve Jobs >_>
1792 2011-02-26 14:11:09 <gasteve> it's strange that the build instructions would show db 4.8 ...a newer version ...seems like someone must have been able to build with that version of bdb
1793 2011-02-26 14:11:35 <lfm> could be that 4.8.b is bad
1794 2011-02-26 14:11:47 <lfm> oh a
1795 2011-02-26 14:11:51 <Diablo-D3> the problem is, across bdb versions, the dbs arent compatible
1796 2011-02-26 14:12:07 <Diablo-D3> so, if you write shit with 4.y, it wont work in 4.x, where y > x
1797 2011-02-26 14:12:29 <lfm> ya kinda dangerous for wallet backup sand stuff
1798 2011-02-26 14:12:30 <Diablo-D3> and if you load a 4.x db in 4.y and save, it will automatically upgrade it for you, and you cant go back
1799 2011-02-26 14:14:51 <gasteve> I used bdb a long time ago and really liked it...but given that it's now effectively owned by Oracle...I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to transition to something else...sqlite for example
1800 2011-02-26 14:15:58 <Diablo-D3> well
1801 2011-02-26 14:16:03 <Diablo-D3> oracle doesnt really "own" it
1802 2011-02-26 14:16:09 <Diablo-D3> 4.x is bsd licensed
1803 2011-02-26 14:16:15 <Diablo-D3> its also _older than god_
1804 2011-02-26 14:16:24 <Diablo-D3> its sure as hell older than Oracle too
1805 2011-02-26 14:16:36 <Diablo-D3> and no, sqlite isnt even close to the same thing
1806 2011-02-26 14:16:54 <Diablo-D3> bdb is a kv store that has insane levels of journaling and multi-app synchronocity
1807 2011-02-26 14:17:00 <Diablo-D3> its rather amazing code
1808 2011-02-26 14:17:11 <gasteve> agreed
1809 2011-02-26 14:17:23 <Diablo-D3> sqlite will choke if you try to have multiple apps write to the same db
1810 2011-02-26 14:17:27 <Diablo-D3> sqlite is also sql
1811 2011-02-26 14:17:36 <Diablo-D3> which is vastly overkill if all you need is a kv store
1812 2011-02-26 14:17:49 <gasteve> but you can bypass the SQL stuff and to kv storage with sqllite too (I once studied the btree implementation of sqllite)...all pretty straightforward
1813 2011-02-26 14:18:03 <Diablo-D3> ironically, because bdb's db IO code is so goddamned good, oracle has a version of sqlite that uses bdb as the backend
1814 2011-02-26 14:18:15 <gasteve> cool
1815 2011-02-26 14:18:41 <comboy> there's also tokyo cabinet
1816 2011-02-26 14:19:03 <comboy> less popular than bdb but faster
1817 2011-02-26 14:19:11 <comboy> (but gaining popularity quick)
1818 2011-02-26 14:19:36 <gasteve> my comment about oracle was more out of concern over the future of bdb not being quite so open
1819 2011-02-26 14:19:39 <Diablo-D3> tokyo cabinet is sexy
1820 2011-02-26 14:20:00 <Diablo-D3> well, this is why even brand new apps use 4.x
1821 2011-02-26 14:20:03 <Diablo-D3> oracle cant stop that
1822 2011-02-26 14:20:08 <Diablo-D3> oracle DID re-license 5.x
1823 2011-02-26 14:20:12 <Diablo-D3> so they're not really "free"
1824 2011-02-26 14:20:17 <Diablo-D3> and bdb-je isnt bdb at all
1825 2011-02-26 14:20:22 <Diablo-D3> its a pile of fucking shit
1826 2011-02-26 14:21:09 <gasteve> yeah, but Oracle probably employs many of the bdb experts...stealing resources to work on proprietary forks that might have otherwise been contributing to the open version
1827 2011-02-26 14:22:10 <BlueMatt> dam Oracle
1828 2011-02-26 14:23:56 <gasteve> so...is 4.7.25 good?
1829 2011-02-26 14:27:17 <Diablo-D3> "experts"?
1830 2011-02-26 14:27:21 <Diablo-D3> its fucking bdb
1831 2011-02-26 14:27:51 <gasteve> just saying
1832 2011-02-26 14:28:21 <Diablo-D3> gasteve: look at where it came from dude
1833 2011-02-26 14:28:25 <Diablo-D3> its older than everything
1834 2011-02-26 14:28:43 <gasteve> I know...it's good stuff, I don't disagree
1835 2011-02-26 14:29:11 <Diablo-D3> I mean, shit, its legitimately part of BSD distros
1836 2011-02-26 14:29:20 <Diablo-D3> because it was in the original BSD
1837 2011-02-26 14:29:21 <Diablo-D3> the first one
1838 2011-02-26 14:29:27 <gasteve> (I used it as a backing store for a transparently persistent smalltalk virtual machine once...I wouldn't have used it if I didn't like it)
1839 2011-02-26 14:33:58 <gasteve> who builds the official OSX distribution of bitcoin?
1840 2011-02-26 14:34:20 <Diablo-D3> no one, osx doesnt really exist
1841 2011-02-26 14:34:21 MartianW has joined
1842 2011-02-26 14:34:37 <gasteve> what does that mean?
1843 2011-02-26 14:34:38 <Diablo-D3> its just a hallucination of all the starbucks coffee drinkers of the world
1844 2011-02-26 14:34:42 <gasteve> hah
1845 2011-02-26 14:35:36 <gasteve> I think bitcoin should be rewritten in ObjC
1846 2011-02-26 14:35:48 <bd_> gasteve: By all means, go ahead :)
1847 2011-02-26 14:35:53 <gasteve> ;)
1848 2011-02-26 14:36:24 <gasteve> so...who does the OSX builds?
1849 2011-02-26 14:39:26 <gasteve> so, I'm trying to just compile 64bit now....but I hit this:
1850 2011-02-26 14:39:28 <gasteve> ld: warning: in /System/Library/Frameworks//QuickTime.framework/QuickTime, missing required architecture x86_64 in file
1851 2011-02-26 14:39:43 <gasteve> why does bitcoin need QT?
1852 2011-02-26 14:41:54 <bd_> probably wx links to QT for some optional functionality
1853 2011-02-26 14:43:16 <lfm> I think ultimatly we should try to drop wx
1854 2011-02-26 14:43:51 <gasteve> what would you use instead?
1855 2011-02-26 14:44:25 <lfm> dunno but wx is the hardest part of building bitcoin
1856 2011-02-26 14:44:41 <BlueMatt> I think we should focus on writing a libbitcoin which would allow for non-wx ports
1857 2011-02-26 14:44:50 <gasteve> it's went smoothly for me (just took forever)
1858 2011-02-26 14:44:52 <BlueMatt> at least a libbitcoin which isnt in java
1859 2011-02-26 14:45:04 <gasteve> agreed
1860 2011-02-26 14:45:09 <cosurgi> hmm... lot's of people suddenly joined the network, my connections increased from 16 to 54 within 2 hours.
1861 2011-02-26 14:45:15 <bd_> Or a bitcoin web service
1862 2011-02-26 14:45:27 <gasteve> libBtcWallet, libBtcClient, libBtcMiner, etc
1863 2011-02-26 14:45:33 <cosurgi> I have external port here. So everyone can join my bitcoind server.
1864 2011-02-26 14:45:47 <BlueMatt> however it happens a bitcoin library would be very nice
1865 2011-02-26 14:46:16 <bd_> but it's important to define what it'd do
1866 2011-02-26 14:46:22 <bd_> would it be a full implementation of a bitcoin daemon?
1867 2011-02-26 14:46:30 <gasteve> a nice clean libbtc would enable UIs and tools to be build in all sorts of languages very easily
1868 2011-02-26 14:46:31 <bd_> Or a lightweight client that calls into a daemon to get things done?
1869 2011-02-26 14:47:07 <BlueMatt> I was thinking a full implementation of the bitcoin daemon w/o rpc,etc
1870 2011-02-26 14:47:25 <BlueMatt> then bitcoin client would be implemented on top of that w/ rpc functions and gui
1871 2011-02-26 14:47:41 <BlueMatt> Not that I have an expertise on the matter
1872 2011-02-26 14:47:53 <bd_> I really think the daemon should be separate
1873 2011-02-26 14:47:58 skeledrew1 has joined
1874 2011-02-26 14:47:59 <bd_> that way you only need to open one port
1875 2011-02-26 14:48:04 <bd_> only need to maintain one block chain database
1876 2011-02-26 14:48:12 <bd_> even if you have multiple programs using the service
1877 2011-02-26 14:48:20 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1878 2011-02-26 14:48:27 <BlueMatt> Isnt that pretty much what we have now w/ rpc?
1879 2011-02-26 14:48:29 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1880 2011-02-26 14:48:53 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1881 2011-02-26 14:49:12 TD has joined
1882 2011-02-26 14:49:29 <gasteve> I think a very tight, clean wallet deamon that runs as it's own process is important...for security/trust reasons...people could use the official wallet daemon with various UIs and such without having to worry as much that this newish UI is going to steal your wallet and ship it off to someone in Russia
1883 2011-02-26 14:49:55 <bd_> gasteve: what kind of API would it have? It would need to show a UI to ask for permission, or there would be no point
1884 2011-02-26 14:50:01 <gasteve> (people still should be cautious though)
1885 2011-02-26 14:50:55 <gasteve> I think when you startup the deamon it could ask for your password or key to unlock the encrypted wallet on disk
1886 2011-02-26 14:51:05 <gasteve> (shouldn't trust any UI with that)
1887 2011-02-26 14:51:15 <BlueMatt> So you guys are saying that we drop the wx part of the mainline and convert it to use an interface to bitcoind?
1888 2011-02-26 14:51:29 <BlueMatt> I think that would probably work pretty well
1889 2011-02-26 14:51:43 <gasteve> you could slap a GUI on that for usability when starting up the wallet daemon if you really wanted
1890 2011-02-26 14:51:46 <BlueMatt> but getting that interface well-defined and secure would be hard
1891 2011-02-26 14:51:57 <gasteve> no questio
1892 2011-02-26 14:52:02 <bd_> BlueMatt: The way I see it, the core bitcoind interface could be very simple:
1893 2011-02-26 14:52:02 <gasteve> *question
1894 2011-02-26 14:52:05 <bd_> * GetBlock
1895 2011-02-26 14:52:07 <bd_> * GetTransaction
1896 2011-02-26 14:52:20 <bd_> * GetTransactionStatus (pending, confirmed, doublespent)
1897 2011-02-26 14:52:23 <bd_> * SubmitTransaction
1898 2011-02-26 14:52:34 <bd_> basically a simplified version of the existing p2p stuff
1899 2011-02-26 14:52:37 <BlueMatt> so...the current rpc functions?
1900 2011-02-26 14:52:40 <bd_> Maybe also some search options
1901 2011-02-26 14:52:48 <gasteve> you might also want something like ListenForTransactionsInvolving(list of accounts)
1902 2011-02-26 14:52:49 <bd_> * SearchForTransactionByDestinationKey
1903 2011-02-26 14:52:51 <BlueMatt> I agree, but what about security?
1904 2011-02-26 14:53:19 <bd_> BlueMatt: The bitcoind in my view would not have the wallet. It would perform normal checks on submitted transactions, ofcourse.
1905 2011-02-26 14:53:26 <bd_> But something else would do the signature
1906 2011-02-26 14:53:39 <BlueMatt> interesting...
1907 2011-02-26 14:53:47 <BlueMatt> That actually sounds like a really good idea
1908 2011-02-26 14:53:51 <bd_> the Wallet daemon would then monitor the bitcoind block feed for new txns, and present additional calls: SendFunds(), GetBalance(), GetTransactionLog()
1909 2011-02-26 14:53:58 <gasteve> agreed, bitcoind should not have a wallet
1910 2011-02-26 14:54:00 <bd_> SendFunds() may prompt the user for permission
1911 2011-02-26 14:54:10 <BlueMatt> So there would be two daemons?
1912 2011-02-26 14:54:12 <tcatm> If you come up with a good API save it on the wiki. IRC discussions are easily lost....
1913 2011-02-26 14:54:13 <bd_> it may also have other policies depending on configuration
1914 2011-02-26 14:54:30 <bd_> BlueMatt: These are logical divisions. Simple installations may merge components, but the core code should be split up
1915 2011-02-26 14:54:37 <gasteve> yes, btc-clientd, btc-walletd, and maybe btd-minerd
1916 2011-02-26 14:54:45 <gasteve> *btc-minerd
1917 2011-02-26 14:54:56 <bd_> My idea is in the end, the bitcoind component may be a third-party web service
1918 2011-02-26 14:54:59 <BlueMatt> Then the security of the connection to -walletd would be difficult
1919 2011-02-26 14:55:08 <bd_> this allows the user's client to be very, very lightweight
1920 2011-02-26 14:55:16 <bd_> BlueMatt: Yes, that would probably be a local connection in many cases
1921 2011-02-26 14:55:23 <bd_> Or even a library call
1922 2011-02-26 14:55:34 <BlueMatt> Yea but securing that library call would be hard
1923 2011-02-26 14:55:50 <BlueMatt> permissions and such
1924 2011-02-26 14:55:50 <gasteve> bd_: agree about the btc-cliend being a third party web service...thinking of an iphone UI specifically
1925 2011-02-26 14:56:20 <bd_> BlueMatt: There are things you can do. On windows, you could create for each user an additional principal for secure wallet storage, and for prompts, switch to a secure desktop
1926 2011-02-26 14:56:22 <BlueMatt> btc-clientd would work well as a web service, it would allow for much better scalability
1927 2011-02-26 14:56:32 <gasteve> I don't think securing access to the walletd would be an issue...needs good a good design and thought, but not particularly difficult IMO
1928 2011-02-26 14:56:56 <BlueMatt> bd_ Im not denying that its not possible, but it would be very hard to get a cross-platform secure soltion
1929 2011-02-26 14:57:12 <bd_> BlueMatt: Yes, but it's no worse than we have now
1930 2011-02-26 14:57:16 <bd_> and makes possible more secure solutions
1931 2011-02-26 14:57:17 <BlueMatt> true
1932 2011-02-26 14:57:32 <gasteve> walletd would/should never have to expose any private keys to any of its clients
1933 2011-02-26 14:57:34 <bd_> There need not be a single walletd in the end. The point is just to make things more isolated
1934 2011-02-26 14:57:47 <BlueMatt> bd_ true
1935 2011-02-26 14:59:36 <gasteve> woohoo...bitcoin successfully compiled on osx!
1936 2011-02-26 14:59:51 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
1937 2011-02-26 14:59:56 <gasteve> (only 64 bit though...didn't try making a 32/64 universal binary)
1938 2011-02-26 15:01:29 <gasteve> strange though...when bitcoin is in the foreground...there's no menu
1939 2011-02-26 15:02:34 <JFK911> heh
1940 2011-02-26 15:06:59 <bd_> https://gist.github.com/845271 quick proposal
1941 2011-02-26 15:07:31 <bd_> This all assumes there's a library to handle the low-level protocol formatting (serialization etc) issues
1942 2011-02-26 15:08:40 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
1943 2011-02-26 15:08:43 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110636 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 243 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 51 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 53421.83392208
1944 2011-02-26 15:09:28 xelister has joined
1945 2011-02-26 15:09:29 xelister has quit (Changing host)
1946 2011-02-26 15:09:29 xelister has joined
1947 2011-02-26 15:11:32 <xelister> I upgraded to 3.20, and when running with -testnet (bitcoind or bitcoin) still
1948 2011-02-26 15:11:53 Daviey has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1949 2011-02-26 15:11:54 <xelister> it shows me the huge amount of (old-)test-bitcoins I have, and the miner says it can not connect to server, wtf is that?
1950 2011-02-26 15:12:01 <xelister> if bitcoind detected that current rulles would destroy my loot and therefore is not agreeing to lowering my account state/using the "new" testnet chain? and this keeps it from working with miner? or what?
1951 2011-02-26 15:12:33 Daviey has joined
1952 2011-02-26 15:13:15 <gasteve> so, my compiled bitcoin client seems to be running just fine (on OSX) but no menu and no icon for it in the dock or when alt-tab...odd...something to look into later
1953 2011-02-26 15:13:29 <gasteve> (but it seems to be downloading blocks and everything just fine)
1954 2011-02-26 15:14:13 <BlueMatt> xelister: it is confused with the previous blocks having already been marked as valid, but they are not
1955 2011-02-26 15:14:22 <BlueMatt> just delete ~/.bitcoin/testnet and youll be fine
1956 2011-02-26 15:14:31 <xelister> BlueMatt: so I should just kill the tesntnet as I thought
1957 2011-02-26 15:14:43 <xelister> yeah, but I wonder... perhaps there should be a message.
1958 2011-02-26 15:14:56 <xelister> the server should log imo all speciall events
1959 2011-02-26 15:15:12 <BlueMatt> It never figured out that it is invalid root-block
1960 2011-02-26 15:15:13 <xelister> chain splits, discovering that given blocks are after all NOT valid. etc
1961 2011-02-26 15:15:19 <BlueMatt> it doesnt check the root block each time it starts
1962 2011-02-26 15:15:27 <[Noodles]> does testnet2 work "as usual" for you guys?
1963 2011-02-26 15:15:31 <BlueMatt> yea
1964 2011-02-26 15:15:38 <xelister> what is the diff there?
1965 2011-02-26 15:15:54 <[Noodles]> cuz for me, i get >50% "invalid or stale" hashes
1966 2011-02-26 15:15:55 <xelister> and it shold show such speciall events, in GUI tab, and list them by some RPC option imo.
1967 2011-02-26 15:16:07 <xelister> what is the diff
1968 2011-02-26 15:16:07 <[Noodles]> no matter what miner i use, even on CPUs
1969 2011-02-26 15:17:14 <[Noodles]> diff 3.7
1970 2011-02-26 15:17:21 <xelister> not for long :>
1971 2011-02-26 15:17:48 <[Noodles]> well within the last week or so there havent been much generators ^_^
1972 2011-02-26 15:17:49 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
1973 2011-02-26 15:18:05 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1974 2011-02-26 15:18:09 <[Noodles]> what bothers me is those >50% loss
1975 2011-02-26 15:18:19 <xelister> miner does not want to connect to testnet mode bitcoind. was the bitcoind modified to not allow get/set work?
1976 2011-02-26 15:18:33 <[Noodles]> no idea
1977 2011-02-26 15:18:53 <xelister> hehe I bet it was
1978 2011-02-26 15:20:55 larsivi has joined
1979 2011-02-26 15:21:32 <xelister> nah, it was just downloading blocks.
1980 2011-02-26 15:26:16 alkor has joined
1981 2011-02-26 15:39:15 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
1982 2011-02-26 15:58:14 TheKid has joined
1983 2011-02-26 16:04:32 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1984 2011-02-26 16:05:22 xelister has joined
1985 2011-02-26 16:05:22 xelister has quit (Changing host)
1986 2011-02-26 16:05:22 xelister has joined
1987 2011-02-26 16:09:37 nextgens has joined
1988 2011-02-26 16:16:05 EvanR_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1989 2011-02-26 16:21:57 EvanR_ has joined
1990 2011-02-26 16:22:01 ENKI-][ is now known as ENKI-[quit]
1991 2011-02-26 16:22:38 danonura has joined
1992 2011-02-26 16:23:34 larsig has joined
1993 2011-02-26 16:25:00 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1994 2011-02-26 16:25:18 dishwara has joined
1995 2011-02-26 16:25:29 BlueMatt has joined
1996 2011-02-26 16:25:29 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
1997 2011-02-26 16:25:29 BlueMatt has joined
1998 2011-02-26 16:28:30 <dishwara> [Noodles]: hi
1999 2011-02-26 16:30:25 <[Noodles]> hi
2000 2011-02-26 16:31:46 alkor has joined
2001 2011-02-26 16:37:09 genjix has joined
2002 2011-02-26 16:38:42 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2003 2011-02-26 16:41:45 * sipa has a working private-key-export and private-key-inport in bitcoind rpc working!
2004 2011-02-26 16:42:35 <BlueMatt> NICE
2005 2011-02-26 16:45:34 * sipa cleans up code, and posts patch
2006 2011-02-26 16:49:11 <TD> great!
2007 2011-02-26 16:49:16 <TD> what format does it use?
2008 2011-02-26 16:49:28 <sipa> self-defined format, using base58
2009 2011-02-26 16:49:43 <sipa> like addresses, but longer and with different version number
2010 2011-02-26 16:49:47 <TD> ok, so base58 of just the 256bit private key?
2011 2011-02-26 16:49:58 <sipa> yes
2012 2011-02-26 16:49:59 <TD> yeah i know. i posted a bounty for private key export using some .bitkeys format
2013 2011-02-26 16:50:04 <TD> v=2
2014 2011-02-26 16:50:09 <TD> base58key,first blocknum
2015 2011-02-26 16:50:12 <TD> that one
2016 2011-02-26 16:50:21 <sipa> hmm, link?
2017 2011-02-26 16:50:38 citiz3n has joined
2018 2011-02-26 16:50:52 <TD> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3638.msg52066#msg52066
2019 2011-02-26 16:51:05 <TD> it wasn't a very big bounty .... just the coins i won from Hal when he posted his base58 private key
2020 2011-02-26 16:51:28 <TD> and it involved adding the feature to the gui rather than just RPC
2021 2011-02-26 16:51:35 <TD> but, if you're interested, the coins are there for the taking
2022 2011-02-26 16:52:34 <sipa> oh yes, i read that
2023 2011-02-26 16:52:39 <sipa> let's see
2024 2011-02-26 16:55:47 skeledrew1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
2025 2011-02-26 16:58:18 skeledrew has joined
2026 2011-02-26 17:01:17 <sipa> by the way, it's currently just 1) an rpc call that given an address gives you the private key and 2) an rpc call that allows you to add a private key in such format to your wallet
2027 2011-02-26 17:01:30 <sipa> it doesn't create a file, or rescan the block chain
2028 2011-02-26 17:05:41 <lfm> it it copies the key, no delete yet?
2029 2011-02-26 17:08:28 <genjix> dirtyfilthy: i donated the remaining 0.5 btc to the bitcoin faucet :p thanks
2030 2011-02-26 17:08:57 <genjix> (unless u want it back)
2031 2011-02-26 17:09:35 <sipa> lfm: indeed
2032 2011-02-26 17:12:18 <sipa> i haven't figured out how wallet management works in detail
2033 2011-02-26 17:13:28 Omp_ has joined
2034 2011-02-26 17:15:13 <Omp_> hi guys. I have question about running bitcoind in ubuntu.
2035 2011-02-26 17:15:51 <sipa> wonderful
2036 2011-02-26 17:15:54 <genjix> that's nice (that you have a question).
2037 2011-02-26 17:16:01 <genjix> shame we don't know what it is.
2038 2011-02-26 17:16:10 <sipa> care to tell us? :)
2039 2011-02-26 17:16:14 <Omp_> I installed bitcoin on ubuntu
2040 2011-02-26 17:16:17 <sipa> we might even know the answer
2041 2011-02-26 17:16:22 <Omp_> and run it
2042 2011-02-26 17:16:28 <nextgens> how long are the bitcoin clients keeping the blocks/transactions for?
2043 2011-02-26 17:16:48 <genjix> nextgens: they currently keep the entire blockchain
2044 2011-02-26 17:16:51 <nextgens> is it going to eat up more and more HD space on all nodes forever?
2045 2011-02-26 17:16:53 <sipa> nextgens: currently, forever, that will change in the future
2046 2011-02-26 17:17:01 <sipa> *but
2047 2011-02-26 17:17:03 <Omp_> I am running bitcoind
2048 2011-02-26 17:17:05 <nextgens> does that mean that the bootstrapping time is also going to be exponential?
2049 2011-02-26 17:17:06 <genjix> however it's nota big deal
2050 2011-02-26 17:17:15 <genjix> no, linear
2051 2011-02-26 17:17:23 <Omp_> but i can't do any bitcoin commands.
2052 2011-02-26 17:17:31 <nextgens> yeah, with time, assuming a constant number of nodes and transactions :)
2053 2011-02-26 17:17:32 <genjix> Omp_: type bitcoind help
2054 2011-02-26 17:17:33 <sipa> Omp_: what happens when you try?
2055 2011-02-26 17:18:40 <nextgens> sipa> how would it work without all the blocks?
2056 2011-02-26 17:19:08 <nextgens> some form of "consensus" amongst "trusted peers" would say "history is fine up to here" ?
2057 2011-02-26 17:19:13 <sipa> no
2058 2011-02-26 17:19:18 <sipa> some nodes will keep all blocks
2059 2011-02-26 17:19:22 <sipa> others won't
2060 2011-02-26 17:19:26 <Omp_> even when i do bitcoin -help or bitcoind -help
2061 2011-02-26 17:19:36 <sipa> what happens, Omp_?
2062 2011-02-26 17:19:48 <Omp_> it always says bitcoin: command not found
2063 2011-02-26 17:19:54 <sipa> how did you install it?
2064 2011-02-26 17:20:03 <genjix> Omp_: bitcoind help
2065 2011-02-26 17:20:05 <Omp_> i have
2066 2011-02-26 17:20:18 <BlueMatt> ./bitcoind help or ./bin/32/bitcoind -help
2067 2011-02-26 17:20:19 <lfm> Omp_: are you familiar with the concept of command search paths?
2068 2011-02-26 17:20:24 <Omp_> and if I do a 'top' command, i can see it is running
2069 2011-02-26 17:20:41 <genjix> if somebody logs in over https and i store the login in a php session, is it safe then to assume from then on that they're logged in?
2070 2011-02-26 17:21:29 <Omp_> hmmm.. ok , what directory should i be in to run the command ?
2071 2011-02-26 17:21:40 <BlueMatt> the directory you dlded bitcoin to
2072 2011-02-26 17:21:48 <BlueMatt> or where you extracted the zip/tar.gz
2073 2011-02-26 17:22:23 <lfm> or where you started bitcoind from
2074 2011-02-26 17:22:38 <Omp_> ok. let me try..
2075 2011-02-26 17:22:49 <nextgens> another question: how big shall I expect my ~/.bitcoin to grow? it's already 180M after a few minutes of uptime
2076 2011-02-26 17:23:01 <sipa> nextgens: how many blocks do you have already?
2077 2011-02-26 17:23:03 <TD> nextgens: if you read the technical white paper you will see how the software could (but currently doesn't) reduce disk space
2078 2011-02-26 17:23:13 <nextgens> 110k
2079 2011-02-26 17:23:23 <sipa> then it won't increase anymore :)
2080 2011-02-26 17:23:36 <sipa> except for new transactions and blocks added of course
2081 2011-02-26 17:24:48 <genjix> nextgens: the blockchain can be reduced by the client using a later block as it's genesis block for example.
2082 2011-02-26 17:25:07 <Omp_> ok I extracted bitcoin and it created a directory called 'bitcoin-0.3.20'
2083 2011-02-26 17:25:22 <nextgens> genjix> yeah, I understand how the space requirement can be lifted
2084 2011-02-26 17:25:29 <Omp_> i cd into that directory
2085 2011-02-26 17:25:30 <nextgens> genjix> but not how the initial bootstrap can be done
2086 2011-02-26 17:25:50 <genjix> Omp_: ok, open that then open bin then open 32 or 64 (depending on your processor type) and then open bitcoin once and wait (it takes a while to open)
2087 2011-02-26 17:25:50 <nextgens> genjix> even if it's not stored, you have to send the ~200MB to new clients, right?
2088 2011-02-26 17:25:54 <TD> no
2089 2011-02-26 17:26:04 <TD> if you don't mine you only need the headers for the block chain up to the point where your wallet is created
2090 2011-02-26 17:26:13 <TD> that's ~10mb a year, or something. not very much.
2091 2011-02-26 17:26:24 <TD> and actually in theory you only need since the last checkpoint
2092 2011-02-26 17:26:26 <TD> so even less
2093 2011-02-26 17:26:35 <TD> it's not a big deal
2094 2011-02-26 17:26:42 <genjix> what she said
2095 2011-02-26 17:26:50 <TD> miners need the whole thing but then they need lots of hardware already, and besides, they can shrink their storage by pruning spent transactions
2096 2011-02-26 17:27:04 <Omp_> bitcoin is not a directory
2097 2011-02-26 17:27:15 <Omp_> I am now in '32'
2098 2011-02-26 17:27:22 <genjix> ./bitcoin
2099 2011-02-26 17:27:33 <nextgens> hmm, okay, it looks like I've got all the blocks now; it stopped trashing the HD
2100 2011-02-26 17:27:40 <genjix> Omp_: gl
2101 2011-02-26 17:27:47 <nextgens> 213MB, 110662 blocks
2102 2011-02-26 17:28:12 <genjix> you sound like you're from the 80s when disk space was a worry
2103 2011-02-26 17:28:33 <nextgens> genjix> it took a good 20+ mins for my node to bootstrap
2104 2011-02-26 17:28:38 <nextgens> with heavy hard drive and cpu usage
2105 2011-02-26 17:28:48 <nextgens> I'm just worried that it might get worst over time
2106 2011-02-26 17:28:56 <nextgens> as the number of nodes/transactions increase
2107 2011-02-26 17:29:14 <genjix> maybe delete some porn
2108 2011-02-26 17:29:15 <nextgens> and was wondering if you guys were working on "something"
2109 2011-02-26 17:29:43 <genjix> im sure it'll be fixed when it becomes problematic :)
2110 2011-02-26 17:29:55 <Omp_> I am in '32'. If I do ./bitcoin is says "shared libraries: libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
2111 2011-02-26 17:30:22 <genjix> umm... are you using Ubuntu?
2112 2011-02-26 17:30:36 <genjix> not Kubuntu or ubuntu server .etv
2113 2011-02-26 17:30:39 <genjix> etc
2114 2011-02-26 17:30:47 <lfm> Omp_: did you install the 64 bit ubuntu?
2115 2011-02-26 17:31:15 <TD> nextgens: it has been discussed and can be fixed. 20 mins is very long.
2116 2011-02-26 17:31:17 <lfm> try bitcoind
2117 2011-02-26 17:31:25 <TD> nextgens: bitcoin is in a transitional period
2118 2011-02-26 17:31:37 <Omp_> I am in '32'. If I do ./bitcoind , it says "bitcoin: cannot obtain a lock on data directory /root/.bitcoin. Bitcoin is probably already running."
2119 2011-02-26 17:31:39 <TD> the official client still assumes you will mine with your cpu and is oriented around that idea
2120 2011-02-26 17:31:43 <TD> but that idea is no longer correct
2121 2011-02-26 17:31:48 <Omp_> I am using ubuntu 32
2122 2011-02-26 17:31:48 <TD> some of these assumptions still need to be cleaned up
2123 2011-02-26 17:31:50 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2124 2011-02-26 17:31:51 <BlueMatt> Omp_ that means bitcoin is already running
2125 2011-02-26 17:31:53 <lfm> try bitcoind help
2126 2011-02-26 17:31:57 <TD> it'll work better and be simpler software as well after that is dealt with
2127 2011-02-26 17:31:59 <TD> the changes needed aren't big
2128 2011-02-26 17:32:04 <BlueMatt> killall bitcoin and killall bitcoind will stop them
2129 2011-02-26 17:32:16 <lfm> dont kill them
2130 2011-02-26 17:32:26 <lfm> try bitcoind help
2131 2011-02-26 17:32:37 kacsa has joined
2132 2011-02-26 17:32:37 <BlueMatt> lfm: it wont hurt the client if you kill them (as long as you dont kill -9 them)
2133 2011-02-26 17:32:48 <BlueMatt> kill sends the TERM signal not the KILL signal (ironic)
2134 2011-02-26 17:33:03 <lfm> why kill them? he wants them running
2135 2011-02-26 17:33:20 <[Tycho]> Don't kill bitcoins, they are so young and innocent !
2136 2011-02-26 17:33:34 <echelon> ^_^
2137 2011-02-26 17:33:37 <BlueMatt> Omp_ what exactly are you trying to do? Open the gui client, the bitcoind (daemon) or what?
2138 2011-02-26 17:33:55 <Omp_> just the bitcoind deamon
2139 2011-02-26 17:34:06 <BlueMatt> oh then its already running
2140 2011-02-26 17:34:09 <lfm> he has bitcoind running he wants to see how the command line works
2141 2011-02-26 17:34:09 <BlueMatt> you are good to go
2142 2011-02-26 17:34:22 <BlueMatt> oh well bitcoind -? will open even though its running
2143 2011-02-26 17:34:26 <BlueMatt> or bitcoind --help
2144 2011-02-26 17:34:26 <lfm> try: bitcoind help
2145 2011-02-26 17:35:08 <lfm> try: ./bitcoind help
2146 2011-02-26 17:35:43 <lfm> Omp_: you still there?
2147 2011-02-26 17:35:45 <Omp_> what directory should I be in to run these commands
2148 2011-02-26 17:35:45 bk128 has joined
2149 2011-02-26 17:35:48 <Omp_> ?
2150 2011-02-26 17:36:05 <BlueMatt> the directory where you were when you launced bitcoin and were earlier when you got the "already running" error
2151 2011-02-26 17:36:28 <Omp_> ok... that would be '32'
2152 2011-02-26 17:36:31 <lfm> well the "./" part means find the executable in the current directory. maybe you need a basic unix beginners tutorial
2153 2011-02-26 17:37:03 AmpEater has joined
2154 2011-02-26 17:37:34 <lfm> ok no maybe about it
2155 2011-02-26 17:37:58 <Omp_> OMG. it works !!
2156 2011-02-26 17:38:16 <lfm> well of course it works, you think we all been lieing?
2157 2011-02-26 17:38:31 <TD> heh
2158 2011-02-26 17:38:34 <Omp_> I swear, i tried that command in that directory before !! .... well... maybe....
2159 2011-02-26 17:39:11 <lfm> ok now you can try : ./bitcoind getinfo
2160 2011-02-26 17:39:30 <genjix> Omp_: you inspired this post :) http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3904.0
2161 2011-02-26 17:40:15 <Omp_> getinfo works.
2162 2011-02-26 17:40:29 <lfm> Omp_: ok now what would you like to do?
2163 2011-02-26 17:41:00 <Omp_> I have been typing these command from almost very directory , from root to user for the past hour !!!
2164 2011-02-26 17:42:12 <lfm> learn what the command line is really doing. if its not in a path directory you have to specify the path to the executable file. It is basic unix
2165 2011-02-26 17:43:06 <genjix> why nt
2166 2011-02-26 17:43:20 <genjix> why not install a linux gui first?
2167 2011-02-26 17:44:06 <lfm> contrary to popular opinion, command lines are not really very hard to understand and they are very good things to know how to use
2168 2011-02-26 17:44:06 <genjix> if somebody logs in over https and i store the login in a php session, is it safe then to assume from then on that they're logged in?
2169 2011-02-26 17:44:16 <Omp_> i am trying things out, so really not sure what to try. haha
2170 2011-02-26 17:44:47 <jrabbit> genjix: php :P
2171 2011-02-26 17:44:54 <lfm> Omp_: ok if you want to warm up you room a bit you can do : ./bitcoind setgenerate true
2172 2011-02-26 17:44:59 <genjix> Omp_: im saying why not install linux with a graphical desktop? :p
2173 2011-02-26 17:45:13 sabalaba has joined
2174 2011-02-26 17:46:14 <Omp_> I ran the bitcoin client before. but i what to try the daemon / server .
2175 2011-02-26 17:48:12 <lfm> can try all the commands in the help list then
2176 2011-02-26 17:48:32 <nextgens> genjix> http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Session_Management
2177 2011-02-26 17:48:50 <genjix> thank you
2178 2011-02-26 17:49:04 <nextgens> genjix> you need to ensure they don't chose the session id and that it won't be leaked over http (httpsOnly flag in the cookie)
2179 2011-02-26 17:49:05 <genjix> i also found http://phpsec.org/projects/guide/4.html
2180 2011-02-26 17:49:07 <nextgens> at the very least
2181 2011-02-26 17:49:13 <genjix> ok
2182 2011-02-26 17:49:31 <genjix> good that guide is long.
2183 2011-02-26 17:49:40 <genjix> i like reading long dense text.
2184 2011-02-26 17:49:51 kacsa has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2185 2011-02-26 17:50:28 <Omp_> I will try as many commands as possible . haha
2186 2011-02-26 17:50:47 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2187 2011-02-26 17:53:36 <Omp_> ok. Thanks a lot guys. Really appreciated.
2188 2011-02-26 17:54:00 <lfm> find a unix tutorial eh
2189 2011-02-26 17:55:08 <Omp_> haha I will. :)
2190 2011-02-26 17:55:56 Omp_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2191 2011-02-26 18:01:05 Lachesis has joined
2192 2011-02-26 18:01:40 RichardG has quit (Quit: -Global- [B] Please return your seatbacks and tray tables to their full-upright position... one of our bobsleds slipped off the tracks.... /msg KillaH with complaints. But for now we've put it back on and expect smooth sailing for the remainder of the fl)
2193 2011-02-26 18:03:05 <Lachesis> has anyone successfully downclocked their RAM on ubuntu?
2194 2011-02-26 18:03:28 <Lachesis> (5870)
2195 2011-02-26 18:03:30 <Lachesis> do i need an unlocked video card bios?
2196 2011-02-26 18:04:48 <ArtForz> yes, and yes
2197 2011-02-26 18:05:48 <Lachesis> ArtForz, what tool did you use to flash on linux?
2198 2011-02-26 18:06:09 <ArtForz> dos boot usb stick + atiflash
2199 2011-02-26 18:06:13 <Lachesis> alright
2200 2011-02-26 18:06:21 <ArtForz> and a XP VM w/ RBE for editing
2201 2011-02-26 18:07:05 <ArtForz> simply lower mem clock for the "performance" setting in clocks/voltages tab
2202 2011-02-26 18:07:19 <Lachesis> did you see a temp decrease?
2203 2011-02-26 18:07:24 <ArtForz> yep
2204 2011-02-26 18:07:31 <ArtForz> not much, 2°C or so
2205 2011-02-26 18:07:37 <Lachesis> not bad, though
2206 2011-02-26 18:07:48 <AmpEater> Does mem speed matter at all for hash rate?
2207 2011-02-26 18:07:52 <ArtForz> nope
2208 2011-02-26 18:07:53 <Lachesis> my cards are so freaking close together
2209 2011-02-26 18:08:03 <AmpEater> So I should lower that huh
2210 2011-02-26 18:08:21 <AmpEater> Good to know
2211 2011-02-26 18:11:42 <Lachesis> oh, ArtForz, do you know any way to check how many coins have been generated but not matured through RPC?
2212 2011-02-26 18:12:21 <lfm> Lachesis: grep generated ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
2213 2011-02-26 18:12:32 <Lachesis> lfm, ah alright that'll work
2214 2011-02-26 18:12:40 <Lachesis> shame the RPC won't show them in listtransactions though
2215 2011-02-26 18:13:05 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2216 2011-02-26 18:13:11 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
2217 2011-02-26 18:16:23 mmagic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2218 2011-02-26 18:16:37 alkor has joined
2219 2011-02-26 18:16:42 alkor has quit (Changing host)
2220 2011-02-26 18:16:42 alkor has joined
2221 2011-02-26 18:16:58 <MacRohard> Lachesis, you can do getbyaddress <address> <number> where number can be 0 to however many levels you want to check
2222 2011-02-26 18:17:40 <lfm> how would you know the generated address used?
2223 2011-02-26 18:18:33 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2224 2011-02-26 18:18:43 <MacRohard> listtransactions maybe
2225 2011-02-26 18:18:47 dissipate has joined
2226 2011-02-26 18:20:10 <MacRohard> actually listreceivedbyaddress allows you to specify a number of confirmatiosn too
2227 2011-02-26 18:20:48 <lfm> so like listtransactions count=0 might show generated before they mature
2228 2011-02-26 18:21:20 <MacRohard> i think so.. i don't generate anymore though.
2229 2011-02-26 18:21:36 <MacRohard> it certainyl shows recently received but unconfirmed coins
2230 2011-02-26 18:24:30 xelister has joined
2231 2011-02-26 18:25:24 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2232 2011-02-26 18:28:02 noot has joined
2233 2011-02-26 18:30:20 <alkor> What library does bitcoin use for RPC?
2234 2011-02-26 18:30:36 <MacRohard> it doesn't
2235 2011-02-26 18:30:57 <MacRohard> it's all hand parsed iirc
2236 2011-02-26 18:31:04 <lfm> interesting - motherboard, cpu and video all for $39.99 CDN
2237 2011-02-26 18:31:28 <alkor> What does iirc mean?
2238 2011-02-26 18:31:33 <MacRohard> if i recall correctly
2239 2011-02-26 18:31:43 <lfm> if I remember correctly
2240 2011-02-26 18:31:52 <lfm> or that
2241 2011-02-26 18:35:07 <MacRohard> oh wait no it does use something for the json
2242 2011-02-26 18:35:31 <MacRohard> json spirit version 4.03
2243 2011-02-26 18:36:16 <MacRohard> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/recipes/JSON_Spirit.aspx
2244 2011-02-26 18:36:25 <alkor> So how are the RPC calls implemented? Is it a server responding to remote procedure calls?
2245 2011-02-26 18:36:48 <MacRohard> it has a hand written http server
2246 2011-02-26 18:37:11 <lfm> alkor it is rpc style ya
2247 2011-02-26 18:39:50 <dissipate> reinventing the wheel?
2248 2011-02-26 18:40:19 <MacRohard> it's fairly trivial and eliminates some external dependencies
2249 2011-02-26 18:41:27 <dissipate> when is bitcoin going to have packages for the major linux distros? (e.g. debian, ubuntu, fedora)
2250 2011-02-26 18:41:47 <MacRohard> it has one for debian
2251 2011-02-26 18:41:54 <MacRohard> bitcoin-cli
2252 2011-02-26 18:42:17 f3n has quit (Disconnected by services)
2253 2011-02-26 18:42:24 <MacRohard> the gui doesn't work because it depends on wxWidgets 2.9 which is unpackaged (why external dependencies suck)
2254 2011-02-26 18:42:35 f4n has joined
2255 2011-02-26 18:42:58 <MacRohard> i raised the issue in #ubuntu-server the other day and someone is working on packaging it for ubuntu
2256 2011-02-26 18:43:07 <MacRohard> dunno about fedora
2257 2011-02-26 18:43:18 <BlueMatt> isnt it not officially "stable" yet?
2258 2011-02-26 18:43:36 * MacRohard shrugs
2259 2011-02-26 18:43:57 <lfm> ya bitcoin still beta ver zero.3
2260 2011-02-26 18:44:05 <BlueMatt> how are they gonna get a development release into the ubuntu packages?
2261 2011-02-26 18:44:12 <BlueMatt> I meant wx
2262 2011-02-26 18:44:13 <lfm> still depends on beta version of wx widgets
2263 2011-02-26 18:44:15 <BlueMatt> 2.9
2264 2011-02-26 18:44:22 <MacRohard> they aren't
2265 2011-02-26 18:44:54 <MacRohard> bitcoin can now be built in cli mode without the wx dependency
2266 2011-02-26 18:45:12 <BlueMatt> oh you are gonna get bitcoind into ubuntu repos?
2267 2011-02-26 18:45:13 <MacRohard> people are already writing other frontends for it
2268 2011-02-26 18:45:25 <lfm> has been for a long time but wxwidgets are of course for the gui ver
2269 2011-02-26 18:45:28 <MacRohard> it's already in the debian repos
2270 2011-02-26 18:45:37 <MacRohard> someone is working on getting it into ubuntu
2271 2011-02-26 18:45:43 <BlueMatt> Ah ok
2272 2011-02-26 18:45:49 <dissipate> why are they using a beta version of wx??
2273 2011-02-26 18:46:03 <dissipate> there doesn't seem to be anything in the GUI that requires any fancy stuff anyways.
2274 2011-02-26 18:46:07 <lfm> something to do with unicode iirc
2275 2011-02-26 18:46:26 <BlueMatt> wx 2.9 added unicode support, which apparently they needed?
2276 2011-02-26 18:46:33 <dissipate> oh ok
2277 2011-02-26 18:46:36 <BlueMatt> not sure why they needed that though...
2278 2011-02-26 18:46:42 <dissipate> wow, unicode has been around for how long??
2279 2011-02-26 18:46:42 <BlueMatt> unless its the B with the line through it
2280 2011-02-26 18:46:43 <lfm> for foreign language versions I guess
2281 2011-02-26 18:46:56 <dissipate> BlueMatt, unicode or utf-8 or utf-16?
2282 2011-02-26 18:47:06 <BlueMatt> No idea
2283 2011-02-26 18:47:07 <lfm> utf-8
2284 2011-02-26 18:50:51 <dissipate> lfm, wow, utf-8 has been around for a dog's age
2285 2011-02-26 18:50:53 sanduz2 has joined
2286 2011-02-26 18:51:00 <dissipate> lfm, they are just now implementing it??
2287 2011-02-26 18:51:03 <lfm> in wxwidgets?
2288 2011-02-26 18:51:05 <sanduz2> how come bitcoin doesnt use my gpu? im on a macbook pro i5
2289 2011-02-26 18:51:15 <sanduz2> when i generate coins it just maxes out the cpu it seems
2290 2011-02-26 18:51:18 <dissipate> lfm, yeah, it is taking them this long to support it??
2291 2011-02-26 18:51:25 <BlueMatt> you have to use a remote rpc gpu miner
2292 2011-02-26 18:51:32 <lfm> sanduz2: gpus use external miners
2293 2011-02-26 18:51:32 <sanduz2> ohh =/
2294 2011-02-26 18:51:43 <dissipate> sanduz2, the official client doesn't support GPU mining. there are other ones that do though.
2295 2011-02-26 18:52:05 <sanduz2> oh where i can i find alternater clients, dissipate ?
2296 2011-02-26 18:52:08 <lfm> they work with the reglar bitcoin serveing as a server
2297 2011-02-26 18:52:32 <BlueMatt> you run bitcoin, you use a remote rpc miner (google) and connect it to the bitcoin client
2298 2011-02-26 18:53:02 <dissipate> sanduz2, check out the mining form: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?board=14.0
2299 2011-02-26 18:53:06 <sanduz2> oh so the other clients just connect to the main bitcoin client? theres no standalone bitcoin client that will max out my system?
2300 2011-02-26 18:53:15 <BlueMatt> no
2301 2011-02-26 18:53:25 <sanduz2> ok thanks guys
2302 2011-02-26 18:53:40 <BlueMatt> there are, in fact, no stable bitcoin clients which connect to the network and manage your wallet other than the main one
2303 2011-02-26 18:53:47 <dissipate> sanduz2, no prob, good luck. btw, there are some people selling mining rigs.
2304 2011-02-26 18:54:11 <sanduz2> ill look into it. still deciding :P
2305 2011-02-26 18:54:43 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
2306 2011-02-26 18:55:02 <sanduz2> does the bitcoin source code show that others can make a similar bitcoin system from it? or is it done in a way that no one else could ever make a similar system?
2307 2011-02-26 18:55:27 <sanduz2> just curious
2308 2011-02-26 18:55:29 <luke-jr> sanduz2: define similar system
2309 2011-02-26 18:55:30 <lfm> sanduz2: somewhere in between maybe
2310 2011-02-26 18:55:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: "client" is too vague
2311 2011-02-26 18:56:15 <sanduz2> luke-jr, well i havent looked over the code but i could imagine a scenario where maybe the implementation is done in a way that nothing else similar could exist
2312 2011-02-26 18:56:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: there are no alternative Peers, or Wallets, but there are alternative UIs and Miners
2313 2011-02-26 18:56:32 <luke-jr> sanduz2: similar in what way?
2314 2011-02-26 18:56:42 <luke-jr> sanduz2: it would be trivial to create alternate block chains, for example testnet
2315 2011-02-26 18:57:04 <lfm> sanduz2: No, it is theoreticlly reproducable, just not easy
2316 2011-02-26 18:57:06 <sanduz2> oh so some other group or country or whatever could just make their own bitcoin easily?
2317 2011-02-26 18:57:10 <luke-jr> sanduz2: there has been talk of the current block chain eventually being an Earth chain, and alternate chains for other planets
2318 2011-02-26 18:57:10 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: excuse me, yes no peers + wallet managers (which I pretty explicitly said)
2319 2011-02-26 18:57:18 <luke-jr> sanduz2: yes
2320 2011-02-26 18:57:22 <sanduz2> hm
2321 2011-02-26 18:57:45 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I misinterpreted you.
2322 2011-02-26 18:57:54 <sanduz2> who is deciding this will be earths chain when anyone can make their own? like if china made their own and forced their citizens to use it lol
2323 2011-02-26 18:57:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: its all good
2324 2011-02-26 18:58:07 <lfm> the code is a bit overly complex and hard to understand in places but not deliberaty to make it impossible
2325 2011-02-26 18:58:11 <luke-jr> sanduz2: nobody is deciding
2326 2011-02-26 18:58:24 <luke-jr> sanduz2: the problem being discussed was the interplanetary latency problem
2327 2011-02-26 18:58:26 <sanduz2> oh you think thatll be the eventual outcome
2328 2011-02-26 18:58:34 <sanduz2> ah i see
2329 2011-02-26 18:58:34 <lfm> or everyone is deciding
2330 2011-02-26 18:58:36 <sipa> the problem is that the current bitcoin client implementation is a mess which does everything at once, without nice separation (p2p node would be one, wallet handling another, gui/cli/rpc interface on top of it, mining a fourth module)
2331 2011-02-26 18:59:00 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, that's being discussed
2332 2011-02-26 18:59:05 <sanduz2> sipa, i agree. thats why i was thinking maybe someone would come up with a better implementation at some point soon and THAT would be the one everyone adopts
2333 2011-02-26 18:59:10 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol#Explanation
2334 2011-02-26 18:59:26 <luke-jr> sanduz2: first we need a protocol for clients/miners
2335 2011-02-26 18:59:27 <lfm> sanduz2: not sonn I think
2336 2011-02-26 18:59:43 <lfm> sanduz2: not soon I think
2337 2011-02-26 19:00:08 <sipa> i would love to have two completely independent yet fully compatible implementations
2338 2011-02-26 19:00:45 <lfm> sanduz2: there are pieces growing out there like the separate miners and the experimental UI alternatives that run offa the standard server
2339 2011-02-26 19:00:59 <luke-jr> sgornick: why is the category called "Open Source" when it should be "Free Software"? :P
2340 2011-02-26 19:01:26 <sanduz2> hm so you think they can be split off piece by piece and wont need a total reimplementation of bitcoin
2341 2011-02-26 19:01:28 <luke-jr> sipa: help with the protocol? :P
2342 2011-02-26 19:01:49 <sipa> ?
2343 2011-02-26 19:01:51 <luke-jr> sanduz2: plus multiple competing implementations of each piece
2344 2011-02-26 19:02:03 <luke-jr> sipa: we're currently defining requirements for the https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
2345 2011-02-26 19:02:15 <luke-jr> sipa: to replace JSON-RPC with something sensible
2346 2011-02-26 19:02:26 <lfm> luke-jr: "free software" is generally the gnu/fsf term, open source is inclusive of other ways like bsd and mit
2347 2011-02-26 19:02:29 <sanduz2> oh you guys are already working on splitting off the wallet? nice!
2348 2011-02-26 19:02:37 <luke-jr> lfm: not true. Free software includes BSD and MIT
2349 2011-02-26 19:02:51 <lfm> generally no
2350 2011-02-26 19:02:54 <luke-jr> lfm: yes.
2351 2011-02-26 19:03:22 <lfm> in your world perhpas where everyone will love tonal and whatnot.
2352 2011-02-26 19:03:28 <luke-jr> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
2353 2011-02-26 19:03:38 <luke-jr> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses
2354 2011-02-26 19:03:42 <sipa> luke-jr: slush is working on a mining protocol already, i believe
2355 2011-02-26 19:03:57 <knotwork> I have hacked bitcoin{|d}'s -testnet option so that instead of testnet it implements a game currency for
2356 2011-02-26 19:04:07 <lfm> well now you see that is the gnu definition. it is not the general def
2357 2011-02-26 19:04:10 <knotwork> Freeciv's Galactic Milieu, known as Martian BotCoins
2358 2011-02-26 19:04:15 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, that effort should be integrated into the wiki page
2359 2011-02-26 19:04:23 <luke-jr> lfm: FSF defines it
2360 2011-02-26 19:04:48 <lfm> luke-jr: fsf is just one group, it is not the whole world
2361 2011-02-26 19:04:52 <sipa> knotwork: loi
2362 2011-02-26 19:04:59 <knotwork> so it is not hard to make a "similar" currency, even I managed to do it
2363 2011-02-26 19:05:00 <luke-jr> lfm: explain how BSD is non-free
2364 2011-02-26 19:05:24 <JFK911> you have to include copyright notices
2365 2011-02-26 19:05:24 <knotwork> and I did it in way that lets me still also use normal bitcoin using same binaries
2366 2011-02-26 19:05:26 <lfm> thats just the term people use. it is open software instead of free
2367 2011-02-26 19:05:26 <dissipate> BSD is free, actually more free than linux
2368 2011-02-26 19:05:28 <JFK911> which is a rude requirement
2369 2011-02-26 19:05:35 <luke-jr> JFK911: you do for all free licenses
2370 2011-02-26 19:05:39 <JFK911> i could care less about those regents
2371 2011-02-26 19:05:49 <luke-jr> except maybe WTFPL
2372 2011-02-26 19:06:01 <luke-jr> lfm: nope
2373 2011-02-26 19:06:21 <lfm> bsd code is in LOTS of non free products
2374 2011-02-26 19:06:29 AmpEater has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2375 2011-02-26 19:06:33 <luke-jr> lfm: the only non-free open source is stuff that includes code, but forbids/restricts redistribution/modification of it
2376 2011-02-26 19:06:36 <lfm> like ms windows for instance
2377 2011-02-26 19:06:37 <knotwork> I am thinking though it could be nice to have simple place you set your custom currency info in makefile or header
2378 2011-02-26 19:06:43 AmpEater has joined
2379 2011-02-26 19:07:03 <luke-jr> lfm: irrelevant. Microsoft added restrictions on top of BSD there.
2380 2011-02-26 19:07:09 <knotwork> file or whatever, or even to be able to have -testnet -martiannet -galacticnet all in there
2381 2011-02-26 19:07:11 <luke-jr> those restrictions are non-free, but BSD remains free itself
2382 2011-02-26 19:07:16 <knotwork> for any custom new one you want to make up
2383 2011-02-26 19:07:35 <lfm> luke-jr: so thats bsd code that is no longer free
2384 2011-02-26 19:07:36 <sipa> the whole world will never agree on the precise defintion of a word
2385 2011-02-26 19:07:43 <sipa> especially something as vague as 'free'
2386 2011-02-26 19:07:58 <luke-jr> lfm: the modifications are non-free, but the BSD code is still free
2387 2011-02-26 19:08:03 <lfm> especially luke
2388 2011-02-26 19:08:07 <luke-jr> sipa: free isn't really vague.
2389 2011-02-26 19:08:31 <knotwork> free isn''t a word, its 32 bits, a word is 16 bits ;) :D
2390 2011-02-26 19:08:39 <sipa> in one sense gpl is more free than bsd (since it guarantees more freedoms), in another sense bsd is more free than gpl since it allows you more
2391 2011-02-26 19:08:48 <sipa> so please stop arguing
2392 2011-02-26 19:09:00 <lfm> im sur emicrosoft will let you go and copy their versions of the BSD code, yup, just ask real nice
2393 2011-02-26 19:09:03 <[Tycho]> gpl isn't anywhere near being free :)
2394 2011-02-26 19:09:09 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm not arguing either. Both GPL and BSD are free. Which is "more free" is another debate.
2395 2011-02-26 19:09:17 <[Tycho]> Because it FORCES people to something.
2396 2011-02-26 19:09:21 <sanduz2> stalman defines free as anything that is forced to stay open source by the license terms. so under that definition bsd wouldnt be free. but under a common sense definition of free, bsd is the freest of all
2397 2011-02-26 19:09:22 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: no, it doesn't.
2398 2011-02-26 19:09:30 <luke-jr> sanduz2: no, he doesn't.
2399 2011-02-26 19:09:38 <luke-jr> sanduz2: Stallman agrees BSD is free
2400 2011-02-26 19:09:44 <luke-jr> sanduz2: don't confuse "free" with "copyleft"
2401 2011-02-26 19:09:44 <sanduz2> hm
2402 2011-02-26 19:09:50 <sipa> sanduz2: according to that definition, nothing is more free than public domain
2403 2011-02-26 19:09:52 <lfm> [Tycho]: and BSD allows you to make their code non free, how is that "free"
2404 2011-02-26 19:10:02 <sanduz2> so why would he rail against open source? i see him do it often
2405 2011-02-26 19:10:04 <luke-jr> sipa: public domain is less free than WTFPL
2406 2011-02-26 19:10:12 <sipa> i don't know wtfpl
2407 2011-02-26 19:10:15 <[Tycho]> BSD doesn't forces me to follow some restrictive rules.
2408 2011-02-26 19:10:16 <luke-jr> sanduz2: because open source includes things that you CAN'T modify or share
2409 2011-02-26 19:10:19 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2410 2011-02-26 19:10:30 <luke-jr> sipa: WTFPL is "do whatever the ____ you want" more or less
2411 2011-02-26 19:10:31 <sanduz2> hm well maybe youre right
2412 2011-02-26 19:11:03 <lfm> bsd doesnt allow me to see the improvements that have been made nonfree. gnu does, so that is more free
2413 2011-02-26 19:11:03 <luke-jr> sipa: reason being, that many jurisdictions do not recognize public domain
2414 2011-02-26 19:11:15 <luke-jr> lfm: GNU does not.
2415 2011-02-26 19:11:34 <sipa> anyway for the start of the discussion: open source and free software typically refer to almost the same thing (though different groups may have different incompatible definitions), but the philosophy tends to differ
2416 2011-02-26 19:11:36 <luke-jr> GPL allows someone to make modifications and never share them.
2417 2011-02-26 19:11:51 <sipa> open source refers to a distribution model, free software to an ideology behind it
2418 2011-02-26 19:11:54 <lfm> luke-jr: when you improve gnu stuff you have to include source with binaries. that lets the user see it
2419 2011-02-26 19:12:18 <luke-jr> lfm: yes, but only the user who you give it to. Not just anyone.
2420 2011-02-26 19:12:38 <dissipate> sipa, what about obfuscated open source?
2421 2011-02-26 19:12:39 <lfm> luke only if you never release the improved version keep it inhouse, true
2422 2011-02-26 19:13:05 <luke-jr> lfm: you can release it, even, and you only need to include source with the copies you distribute/sell
2423 2011-02-26 19:13:11 <luke-jr> you don't need to give it to 3rd parties who don't buy it
2424 2011-02-26 19:13:13 <lfm> luke and when you give it to a customer he is allowed to give it away
2425 2011-02-26 19:13:25 <luke-jr> yep
2426 2011-02-26 19:13:33 <lfm> so thats more free
2427 2011-02-26 19:13:36 <sipa> dissipate: if i use fsf's definition of open source (form which allows easiest modification basically), that doesn't qualify as such
2428 2011-02-26 19:13:36 <luke-jr> I don't think I've ever seen that happen
2429 2011-02-26 19:14:03 <lfm> usually the developer just opens it up anyway
2430 2011-02-26 19:14:41 <luke-jr> anyhow, I propose renaming the Open Source wiki category to Free Software
2431 2011-02-26 19:14:47 <luke-jr> because the latter is what really matters
2432 2011-02-26 19:14:54 <luke-jr> what good is source code, if you're forbidden to modify it?
2433 2011-02-26 19:15:09 <lfm> yes luke we know you like to redefine things that arnt broke
2434 2011-02-26 19:15:43 <lfm> luke-jr: when are you forbiddent to modify?
2435 2011-02-26 19:16:09 <luke-jr> lfm: for example, a proprietary Python program
2436 2011-02-26 19:16:19 <JFK911> id like to see someone keeping me from modifying anything
2437 2011-02-26 19:16:32 <luke-jr> you technically get the source, so it's open source, but since the license forbids you from modifying or sharing it, it isn't free software
2438 2011-02-26 19:16:42 <lfm> ok, if its not open then you might be forbbiden in that way, so?
2439 2011-02-26 19:17:09 <sipa> typically if you call a program open source, it implies you have some rights for modifying the code as well
2440 2011-02-26 19:17:10 <luke-jr> so it might as well be a binary.
2441 2011-02-26 19:17:11 <dissipate> luke-jr, you can always modify compiled binaries as well.
2442 2011-02-26 19:17:24 <luke-jr> sipa: that's not the obvious inherent definition of "open source"
2443 2011-02-26 19:17:31 <sipa> no it is not
2444 2011-02-26 19:17:36 <sipa> but it's an accepted meaning
2445 2011-02-26 19:17:41 <luke-jr> dissipate: whether source or not, it's not legal if the license forbids it
2446 2011-02-26 19:17:48 <lfm> thats not open source, thats some companies weasle words to try to keep it proprietary and apear open without really doing it, nothing to do with gpl or bsd
2447 2011-02-26 19:18:17 <luke-jr> lfm: if you can see the source, it's literally open source
2448 2011-02-26 19:19:00 <lfm> sigh, thats not "Open Source" as defined
2449 2011-02-26 19:19:00 <dissipate> luke-jr, so what if i modify windows' compiled binaries?
2450 2011-02-26 19:19:10 <luke-jr> lfm: that's "open source" as defined by English
2451 2011-02-26 19:19:22 <luke-jr> dissipate: that's not legal
2452 2011-02-26 19:19:28 <lfm> dissipate: you are violating ms licenses
2453 2011-02-26 19:19:53 <dissipate> luke-jr, on my own machine?
2454 2011-02-26 19:19:58 <sipa> what are you actually arguing about?
2455 2011-02-26 19:20:27 <luke-jr> dissipate: depends if you consider the contract valid.
2456 2011-02-26 19:20:28 <lfm> sipa luke want to redefine open source and free software to be the way he thinks they should be
2457 2011-02-26 19:20:28 <luke-jr> :P
2458 2011-02-26 19:20:37 <luke-jr> lfm: I don't want to redefine anything.
2459 2011-02-26 19:20:51 <sipa> no, but he suggests changing something somewhere... what?
2460 2011-02-26 19:22:12 <lfm> he thinks "open source" is just what he intuitavly understand as ordinary english words and not technical terms
2461 2011-02-26 19:22:16 <dissipate> free software to means: do whatever you want with it, period.
2462 2011-02-26 19:22:23 <sipa> please
2463 2011-02-26 19:22:29 <sipa> people don't always agree about meanings
2464 2011-02-26 19:22:33 <luke-jr> sipa: someone just created an "Open Source" category on the wiki
2465 2011-02-26 19:22:36 <dissipate> therefore, in my opinion, linux is not free. nor is a lot of other software out there.
2466 2011-02-26 19:22:48 <lfm> dissipate: well the "Free Software Foundation" disagrees
2467 2011-02-26 19:23:03 <sipa> if it's ambiguous, disambiguate
2468 2011-02-26 19:23:06 <luke-jr> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
2469 2011-02-26 19:23:25 <dissipate> i don't see why i have to reveal my source code when i use linux and sell that software
2470 2011-02-26 19:23:33 <luke-jr> dissipate: you don't.
2471 2011-02-26 19:23:43 <dissipate> luke-jr, o rly?
2472 2011-02-26 19:24:03 <BlueMatt> anyone betting on the mtgox price on bitcoinsportsbook for end of march?
2473 2011-02-26 19:24:09 <sipa> if you distribute a modified version of lines, you must distribute the source as well
2474 2011-02-26 19:24:12 <sipa> that's all
2475 2011-02-26 19:24:15 <sipa> linux
2476 2011-02-26 19:24:19 <luke-jr> of Linux's source, not yours
2477 2011-02-26 19:24:47 <sipa> btw, where is that section?
2478 2011-02-26 19:25:19 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Open_Source
2479 2011-02-26 19:25:54 * sipa thinks "open source" nicely describes what's there
2480 2011-02-26 19:26:23 <sipa> and not all of what's there may be intended as free software (though i haven't checked the licenses)
2481 2011-02-26 19:26:24 <lfm> yes gpl "restricts" the developer to force him/her to keep the software open and free according to its own principles. the developer is not allowed to make free software less free. the alternative is to give the developer the "freedom" to do what they wish as in BSD or public domain but at the expense of the rest of the world of users and other developers who do not get to use the advancements
2482 2011-02-26 19:26:25 <luke-jr> indeed. but it's not a useful category.
2483 2011-02-26 19:26:31 <dissipate> sipa, i don't see why it is licensed that way. so what if people modify it and sell products? the freebsd folks certainly don't care if you do that.
2484 2011-02-26 19:26:41 <luke-jr> Spesmilo, for example, is straight copyright. No license to distribute *at all*.
2485 2011-02-26 19:27:04 <luke-jr> dissipate: what if they do?
2486 2011-02-26 19:27:15 <luke-jr> dissipate: it's completely legit to modify and sell it
2487 2011-02-26 19:27:30 <dissipate> luke-jr, right, but you have to reveal the source
2488 2011-02-26 19:27:41 <sipa> well, i think that's their very right to demand that
2489 2011-02-26 19:27:49 <dissipate> luke-jr, freebsd doesn't have that restriction and it's doing fine as far as i know
2490 2011-02-26 19:27:56 <sipa> they contributed something to the world
2491 2011-02-26 19:28:14 <luke-jr> dissipate: except that FreeBSD sucks compared to Linux
2492 2011-02-26 19:28:15 <sipa> and may not like the idea of companies using it for their own means, without giving back to the community
2493 2011-02-26 19:28:23 <lfm> dissipate: yes fine if you define fine as being used by 1000 times fewer people
2494 2011-02-26 19:28:24 <ArtForz> yet they come crying when people take modified BSD code and slap a gpl2 on top of it.
2495 2011-02-26 19:28:31 <dissipate> luke-jr, and linux sucks compared to plan9. :P
2496 2011-02-26 19:28:53 <sipa> i don't think it has anything at all to do with how fine the software writting using that license is doing
2497 2011-02-26 19:29:01 <sipa> windows is commericially also doing fine
2498 2011-02-26 19:29:17 AmpEater has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2499 2011-02-26 19:29:21 <sipa> but people have all right to decide what others can do with their code
2500 2011-02-26 19:29:28 <ArtForz> yep
2501 2011-02-26 19:29:40 <dissipate> i wish we could all switch to plan9 and be happy
2502 2011-02-26 19:29:47 <sipa> and i sympathise both with gpl and bsd proponents
2503 2011-02-26 19:29:54 <luke-jr> dissipate: how does Plan9 beat Linux?
2504 2011-02-26 19:30:00 <ArtForz> sipa: agree, both have their place
2505 2011-02-26 19:30:56 <dissipate> luke-jr, a number of ways. it has utf-8 built in for one thing.
2506 2011-02-26 19:31:14 <luke-jr> dissipate: um, Linux doesn't? since when?
2507 2011-02-26 19:31:39 <sipa> afaik the linux kernel is mostly character-encoding-agnostic
2508 2011-02-26 19:31:40 <ArtForz> I think linux itself is pretty encoding agnostic
2509 2011-02-26 19:31:57 <lfm> dissipate: <- is still using linux 0.99
2510 2011-02-26 19:33:15 <dissipate> luke-jr, you can ask in #plan9
2511 2011-02-26 19:33:51 <dissipate> luke-jr, plan9 is set up so everything is a file basically.
2512 2011-02-26 19:34:54 <ArtForz> yep, plan9 is pretty elegant
2513 2011-02-26 19:35:31 <dissipate> no ioctl commands and things like that. you just pipe data to and from files, which could be mounted remotely. CPU and filesystem can be running on separate machines, because resources are brought together using files and namespaces.
2514 2011-02-26 19:36:10 <dissipate> ArtForz, yep, hence, they are trying to port plan9 features to linux. haha
2515 2011-02-26 19:36:14 <ArtForz> imo imlements the base unix "philosophy" a lot more consistently than most unixes
2516 2011-02-26 19:36:38 <BlueMatt> I agree
2517 2011-02-26 19:36:41 <dissipate> ArtForz, that's because it was built from the ground up by the original people who designed unix.
2518 2011-02-26 19:36:51 <BlueMatt> but a bit less practically
2519 2011-02-26 19:37:13 <lfm> to bad they named it after such a dumb movie
2520 2011-02-26 19:37:43 <BlueMatt> Yea, who would name an os after a movie known as the worst movie of all time?
2521 2011-02-26 19:38:49 <ArtForz> worst OS I ever had to work with was some old VxWorks version
2522 2011-02-26 19:39:08 <dissipate> luke-jr, here is some info on plan9 and UTF: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/utf.html
2523 2011-02-26 19:39:15 <ArtForz> well, at least for writing a hardware driver
2524 2011-02-26 19:40:18 <dissipate> BlueMatt, there is another version called 'Inferno'
2525 2011-02-26 19:40:51 <ArtForz> lol
2526 2011-02-26 19:42:29 <dissipate> how bad ass is this for an OS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(operating_system)
2527 2011-02-26 19:42:41 Slix` has joined
2528 2011-02-26 19:45:00 alkor_ has joined
2529 2011-02-26 19:45:46 alkor_ has quit (Client Quit)
2530 2011-02-26 19:46:20 <dukeleto> anybody know what this pyopencl error is about? https://gist.github.com/845533
2531 2011-02-26 19:46:57 alkor has joined
2532 2011-02-26 19:47:05 * dukeleto is trying to get poclbm to work with bitcoin 0.3.20 on ubuntu 10.10
2533 2011-02-26 19:47:20 <ArtForz> sounds like some kind of problem with the openCL sdk installation
2534 2011-02-26 19:47:40 <dukeleto> with pyopencl 0.92, if that helps.
2535 2011-02-26 19:47:54 <dukeleto> ArtForz: yes, i have been searching and there is definitely something funky going on
2536 2011-02-26 19:48:07 discHead has joined
2537 2011-02-26 19:48:07 discHead has quit (Changing host)
2538 2011-02-26 19:48:07 discHead has joined
2539 2011-02-26 19:48:17 <ArtForz> what catalyst / stream/APP SDK version?
2540 2011-02-26 19:48:21 <dukeleto> ArtForz: the debian packages for pyopencl depend on nvidia packages, so I had to compile my own, but something else is still not working
2541 2011-02-26 19:48:38 <dukeleto> ati stream v2.1 64bit
2542 2011-02-26 19:48:50 <dukeleto> ArtForz: i read that 2.2/2.3 have performance issues
2543 2011-02-26 19:48:53 <ArtForz> yes
2544 2011-02-26 19:48:56 <ArtForz> first guess, do you have /etc/OpenCL/vendors/ ?
2545 2011-02-26 19:48:59 <dukeleto> ArtForz: this is with a 5870 card
2546 2011-02-26 19:49:21 <dukeleto> ArtForz: i do, but there is only a nvidia.icd file in there, which is obviously wrong
2547 2011-02-26 19:49:28 <ArtForz> yep, thats wrong
2548 2011-02-26 19:49:34 <dukeleto> ArtForz: apt-get remove didn't remove it
2549 2011-02-26 19:49:43 <ArtForz> there should be a atiocl64.icd in there
2550 2011-02-26 19:50:10 <dukeleto> ArtForz: where are the docs for dealing with those files? I am new to this and probably have not RTFM'ed the right docs
2551 2011-02-26 19:50:15 <dukeleto> ArtForz: also, I appreciate your help :)
2552 2011-02-26 19:50:29 <ArtForz> iirc that file is in icd-registration.tgz for the ATI sdk
2553 2011-02-26 19:50:55 <BlueMatt> Is it true that if I have .05111 BTC in my wallet and I send .05 to someone, .00111 are put up as a tx fee? Or is that transfered as well?
2554 2011-02-26 19:51:07 <ArtForz> yea, thats true
2555 2011-02-26 19:51:17 <BlueMatt> its a tx fee?
2556 2011-02-26 19:51:20 <lfm> ya I got icd-registration.tgz from ati same place as the sdk 2.1
2557 2011-02-26 19:51:37 <JFK911> who is collecting tx fees
2558 2011-02-26 19:51:49 <ArtForz> whoever mines the block containing that transaction
2559 2011-02-26 19:52:00 <lfm> JFK911: all miners collect tx fees if they are offered
2560 2011-02-26 19:52:08 <ArtForz> a transaction with a output < 0.01 requires a min tx fee of 0.01
2561 2011-02-26 19:52:20 <JFK911> hmf
2562 2011-02-26 19:52:40 <JFK911> i am owed some fees then
2563 2011-02-26 19:52:47 <ArtForz> so if a transactions would create a < 0.01 change-to-self, it just "throws away" that as a fee
2564 2011-02-26 19:52:47 <JFK911> undoubtedly i have mined some blocks with tx in them
2565 2011-02-26 19:53:06 <[Noodles]> but those tx had no fees
2566 2011-02-26 19:53:16 <ArtForz> as thats cheaper than keeping the change and paying a 0.01 fee
2567 2011-02-26 19:53:24 <lfm> JFK911: well they are actually quite rare
2568 2011-02-26 19:53:24 <dissipate> huh? i thought it sent it to another address in your wallet.
2569 2011-02-26 19:53:27 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
2570 2011-02-26 19:53:37 <ArtForz> dissipate: huh?
2571 2011-02-26 19:53:44 <BlueMatt> Art: the .00111 is a tx fee then, or is it transfered (as its not an output <0.01, but is 0.05111)
2572 2011-02-26 19:53:51 <ArtForz> it's a fee
2573 2011-02-26 19:53:54 <[Noodles]> it's still an output, dissipate
2574 2011-02-26 19:54:01 <ArtForz> no, it's a fee
2575 2011-02-26 19:54:03 <dukeleto> ArtForz: thanks for the help!
2576 2011-02-26 19:54:08 <dissipate> ArtForz, doesn't the client send change back to some address in your wallet?
2577 2011-02-26 19:54:13 <ArtForz> normally, yes
2578 2011-02-26 19:54:19 <lfm> if it is larger than 0.01 like 0.0111 then there is no fee
2579 2011-02-26 19:54:42 <ArtForz> but theres special-casing for change <0.01 because that would trigger the "dust spam" 0.01 min fee
2580 2011-02-26 19:56:39 alkor has joined
2581 2011-02-26 19:56:52 alkor has left ()
2582 2011-02-26 19:56:57 <ArtForz> so instead of creating a change-to-self output < 0.01 it just leaves that part as fee
2583 2011-02-26 19:57:07 <dissipate> ArtForz, this is pre- 8 digit support, i'm assuming.
2584 2011-02-26 19:57:21 <ArtForz> even with full precision the < 0.01 rule still stands
2585 2011-02-26 19:57:26 <lfm> ya like now I think
2586 2011-02-26 19:57:42 <dissipate> ArtForz, but if bitcoins became a lot more valuable that doesn't make sense.
2587 2011-02-26 19:57:50 <ArtForz> so the rule will be changed then
2588 2011-02-26 19:58:06 <dissipate> .001 bitcoins could be worth what 10 bitcoins is worth today
2589 2011-02-26 19:58:08 <[Tycho]> Does the author of "bitcoin-miner" visits IRC or not ?
2590 2011-02-26 19:58:35 <BlueMatt> Though there REALLY should be a protocol to add a tx fee after a tx has been submitted to the network
2591 2011-02-26 19:58:38 <dissipate> i say just move the decimal point 8 places and be done with these fractions! :O
2592 2011-02-26 19:59:00 <lfm> so maybe the minimum txn will be worth $0.10 or $10.00 or whatever. no one really needs pennies
2593 2011-02-26 19:59:18 <sipa> BlueMatt: actually, the protocol does define a transaction history number
2594 2011-02-26 19:59:25 <ArtForz> and changing the min-tx-output rule *is* pretty simple
2595 2011-02-26 19:59:45 gasteve has joined
2596 2011-02-26 19:59:47 <sipa> not sure what its intended use is, but it i believe it is for updating transactions before they are included in a block
2597 2011-02-26 20:00:07 <ArtForz> sipa: that stuff is currently disabled
2598 2011-02-26 20:00:14 <sipa> yes, i know it is not used
2599 2011-02-26 20:00:14 <BlueMatt> But if a tx is released and it just doesnt make it into a block, there really should be a way to add a tx fee after the fact
2600 2011-02-26 20:00:18 <sipa> but the bytes are there
2601 2011-02-26 20:00:42 <lfm> sipa ya reserved for future implementation
2602 2011-02-26 20:00:52 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: you can already kinda do that
2603 2011-02-26 20:00:59 <BlueMatt> really? how?
2604 2011-02-26 20:01:10 <sipa> indeed, but i believe the intention is actually to use it for something described by BlueMatt
2605 2011-02-26 20:01:11 <BlueMatt> I know you can re-release a tx
2606 2011-02-26 20:01:17 <ArtForz> yep
2607 2011-02-26 20:01:37 <BlueMatt> but does that work properly with the current clients?
2608 2011-02-26 20:01:41 <ArtForz> yes
2609 2011-02-26 20:01:44 <ArtForz> basically hacking wallet.dat (or using a older backup) to "uncreate" the transaction
2610 2011-02-26 20:01:57 <BlueMatt> does it get transmitted through the network
2611 2011-02-26 20:02:07 <BlueMatt> even though the network already knows about the original tx?
2612 2011-02-26 20:02:17 <ArtForz> well, thats the thing ,the network will forget about it over time
2613 2011-02-26 20:02:23 <BlueMatt> it will?
2614 2011-02-26 20:02:29 <ArtForz> notice that transactions are only rebroadcast by the original sender
2615 2011-02-26 20:02:32 <lfm> so what .. newer unblocked txn have priority?
2616 2011-02-26 20:02:37 <ArtForz> and nodes lose their cached TX when they restart
2617 2011-02-26 20:02:57 <BlueMatt> wait, txes are not rebroadcasted by other nodes?
2618 2011-02-26 20:03:00 <ArtForz> nope
2619 2011-02-26 20:03:12 Lachesis has joined
2620 2011-02-26 20:03:14 alkor has joined
2621 2011-02-26 20:03:16 <BlueMatt> <ArtForz> notice that transactions are only rebroadcast by the original sender
2622 2011-02-26 20:03:24 <ArtForz> yes
2623 2011-02-26 20:03:31 <BlueMatt> wait whats the difference?
2624 2011-02-26 20:03:49 <ArtForz> a normal node only "hands on" a transaction if it doesnt have it in its cache already
2625 2011-02-26 20:04:07 <BlueMatt> oh, ok
2626 2011-02-26 20:04:18 <lfm> and the cache is reset on restart
2627 2011-02-26 20:04:20 <ArtForz> yep
2628 2011-02-26 20:04:38 <BlueMatt> oh, ok but it will take quite a while for the network to forget about a tx
2629 2011-02-26 20:04:41 <ArtForz> yes
2630 2011-02-26 20:04:53 <ArtForz> last time I tried, about a week or so seems to be "enough"
2631 2011-02-26 20:05:07 alkor has quit (Client Quit)
2632 2011-02-26 20:05:30 <lfm> but considering some nodes still run 0.3.0 it could be a lot longer
2633 2011-02-26 20:05:56 alkor has joined
2634 2011-02-26 20:05:58 validus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2635 2011-02-26 20:06:04 <BlueMatt> and will a client who remembers a tx and recieves a tx which overwrites it pass on the new one, drop it or what?
2636 2011-02-26 20:06:08 validus has joined
2637 2011-02-26 20:06:17 <ArtForz> it ignores the new one
2638 2011-02-26 20:06:27 <BlueMatt> interesting
2639 2011-02-26 20:06:30 <ArtForz> imo the more important part is how much % of mining power is restarted over that timespan
2640 2011-02-26 20:06:43 <lfm> if a conflicting txn gets in the block chain, it should drop any cached txn then
2641 2011-02-26 20:06:49 <BlueMatt> so we should encourage pools and large miners to restart their clients on a regular basis?
2642 2011-02-26 20:06:51 <ArtForz> theres enough churn of normal nodes to have a tx spread to a vast majority of the network after a day or 2
2643 2011-02-26 20:06:55 <ArtForz> yes
2644 2011-02-26 20:07:20 <ArtForz> when one of the two makes it into a block nodes will drop the cached other one
2645 2011-02-26 20:07:22 <BlueMatt> do you reboot your bitcoind regularly art?
2646 2011-02-26 20:07:27 <ArtForz> yes
2647 2011-02-26 20:07:44 <BlueMatt> interesting
2648 2011-02-26 20:08:11 RazielZ has quit ()
2649 2011-02-26 20:08:36 <ArtForz> miner node and frontend node are restarted daily by a cronjob
2650 2011-02-26 20:09:35 <BlueMatt> mine is too, but thats because Im in germany and here just about everyone's PPPoE DSL get reset every 24 hours and thus IP changes -> have to restart bitcoind to keep connections
2651 2011-02-26 20:10:21 <ArtForz> yep, same here
2652 2011-02-26 20:10:35 <BlueMatt> ah, ok that makes sense that you would have to as well
2653 2011-02-26 20:10:42 <BlueMatt> I wonder if mtgox, mybitcoin, etc is
2654 2011-02-26 20:10:52 <BlueMatt> Id assume not
2655 2011-02-26 20:10:54 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
2656 2011-02-26 20:11:00 <dissipate> what are the max number of connections you can have in the official client if you have port 8333 open?
2657 2011-02-26 20:11:14 <BlueMatt> 150?
2658 2011-02-26 20:11:15 <lfm> if on proper servers they will have fixed ip numbers
2659 2011-02-26 20:11:31 <ArtForz> unlimited
2660 2011-02-26 20:11:35 <BlueMatt> Yea, hence I would assume they dont ever restart their bitcoind
2661 2011-02-26 20:11:40 <ArtForz> unles you specify maxconnections
2662 2011-02-26 20:11:50 <ArtForz> iirc 0.3.20 now defaults to 150
2663 2011-02-26 20:11:52 <BlueMatt> I thought there was a limit on maxconnections by default now?
2664 2011-02-26 20:11:55 <BlueMatt> oh, ok
2665 2011-02-26 20:11:59 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2666 2011-02-26 20:13:17 <dissipate> hmm, so i could be uploading the blockchain to someone right now.
2667 2011-02-26 20:13:26 <BlueMatt> yep
2668 2011-02-26 20:13:38 <BlueMatt> but more likely you are just sending occasional blocks
2669 2011-02-26 20:13:56 <lfm> dissipate: you can see it in debug.log file
2670 2011-02-26 20:14:36 alkor has joined
2671 2011-02-26 20:14:51 mmarker has joined
2672 2011-02-26 20:15:53 semyazza has joined
2673 2011-02-26 20:15:59 <dissipate> lfm, which irc channel is all of this taking place in?
2674 2011-02-26 20:16:17 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin on lfnet iirc
2675 2011-02-26 20:16:53 <mmarker> What's new?
2676 2011-02-26 20:17:43 <dissipate> BlueMatt, so all you would have to do to bring down bitcoin is bring down that IRC channel?? interesting.
2677 2011-02-26 20:17:50 alkor has left ()
2678 2011-02-26 20:17:51 <ArtForz> nope
2679 2011-02-26 20:17:54 <mmarker> Not really
2680 2011-02-26 20:18:01 <BlueMatt> no, there are other ways of bootstraping
2681 2011-02-26 20:18:10 <mmarker> It's one of many way sto get suckstarted on the bitcoin p2p network
2682 2011-02-26 20:18:11 <BlueMatt> Art: the client has some form of peer exchange right?
2683 2011-02-26 20:18:19 <ArtForz> yes
2684 2011-02-26 20:18:21 <ArtForz> it's only needed for *initial* bootstrapping
2685 2011-02-26 20:18:33 <ArtForz> well, IRC or the hardcoded IP list is
2686 2011-02-26 20:18:42 <lfm> or the comman dline
2687 2011-02-26 20:18:45 <ArtForz> after that client just uses IPs cached in addr.dat
2688 2011-02-26 20:18:59 <mmarker> artforz: May also be fun to add it to some bittorrent clients to pass around "hey, I'm also a bitcoin node"
2689 2011-02-26 20:19:40 <mmarker> Ok, time to reflash the ARM board for more bitcoin testing
2690 2011-02-26 20:19:41 <lfm> mmarker: you could but its not needed for now
2691 2011-02-26 20:19:42 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2692 2011-02-26 20:19:56 <mmarker> lfm: Yup, just thinking of ways to add resiliency.
2693 2011-02-26 20:20:11 <ArtForz> I've been procrastinating creating a simple "not-really-a-node" to create dedicated seednodes
2694 2011-02-26 20:20:43 <dissipate> seednodes?
2695 2011-02-26 20:20:47 <ArtForz> yes
2696 2011-02-26 20:20:50 <UukGoblin> these manually modded x1 raisers are dodgy
2697 2011-02-26 20:20:57 <UukGoblin> they sometimes work, sometimes not
2698 2011-02-26 20:21:05 semyazza has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2699 2011-02-26 20:21:19 <ArtForz> UukGoblin: that pretty much applies to any kind of flexible PCIe riser
2700 2011-02-26 20:21:21 <mmarker> Crap. I hate it when you're ready to flash devices, and have lost your serial adapter
2701 2011-02-26 20:21:24 <mmarker> Damn desk
2702 2011-02-26 20:21:24 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, the biggest problem with running that setpci command to switch to gen1 is that I don't even see the cards in lspci... so won't be able to tell setpci which one it is
2703 2011-02-26 20:21:45 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, have you got some special super-awesome raisers, or were you modding them yourself?
2704 2011-02-26 20:21:53 <ArtForz> did you add the presence detect wire like shown on mrbs blog?
2705 2011-02-26 20:22:08 <ArtForz> I got special raisers
2706 2011-02-26 20:22:43 <ArtForz> they've got a shorter than normal cable and more shielding
2707 2011-02-26 20:23:15 <ArtForz> the normal 6" ones were too flaky at gen2 speed for my taste
2708 2011-02-26 20:23:36 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, I tried with and without
2709 2011-02-26 20:23:39 <UukGoblin> results are... random
2710 2011-02-26 20:23:55 <ArtForz> how long is your risers cable?
2711 2011-02-26 20:24:04 <UukGoblin> one is ~10cm the other is ~50
2712 2011-02-26 20:24:10 <ArtForz> I've had nothing but problems with >6" or so cables
2713 2011-02-26 20:24:46 <ArtForz> my custom ones are ~10cm cable
2714 2011-02-26 20:24:56 <ArtForz> and they work reliably at gen2 speeds
2715 2011-02-26 20:25:29 <ArtForz> with 15cm cable... not quite so reliably, have to drop to gen1 otherwise the card disappears every few days
2716 2011-02-26 20:25:37 * UukGoblin nods
2717 2011-02-26 20:26:04 <ArtForz> and the cheap ones with plugs on the cable, no luck at all
2718 2011-02-26 20:26:32 <ArtForz> either crashes on boot or doesn't detect card
2719 2011-02-26 20:26:36 <UukGoblin> what about power on the raisers? did you cut them and added it yourself?
2720 2011-02-26 20:26:36 alkor has joined
2721 2011-02-26 20:26:42 <ArtForz> yes
2722 2011-02-26 20:26:48 * UukGoblin nods
2723 2011-02-26 20:26:48 alkor has left ()
2724 2011-02-26 20:26:58 <UukGoblin> well thanks a lot
2725 2011-02-26 20:27:03 <UukGoblin> I'll have to get different raisers
2726 2011-02-26 20:27:10 <lfm> 50cm seems a lot
2727 2011-02-26 20:27:18 <ArtForz> did my power mod a bit differently than mrb though
2728 2011-02-26 20:27:27 <UukGoblin> the 50cm one /sometimes/ worked
2729 2011-02-26 20:27:43 <UukGoblin> is mrb the guy from this zorinaq blog?
2730 2011-02-26 20:27:45 discHead has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2731 2011-02-26 20:27:55 <ArtForz> yes
2732 2011-02-26 20:28:01 bitdragon has joined
2733 2011-02-26 20:28:02 alkor has joined
2734 2011-02-26 20:28:09 alkor has left ()
2735 2011-02-26 20:28:33 <mmarker> Crap
2736 2011-02-26 20:28:56 <ArtForz> cut the +12 traces on the receptable PCB, soldered 22ga from receptable pins to a heat-shrinked splice to a 16ga
2737 2011-02-26 20:29:48 <[Tycho]> What is "gen2 speeds" ?
2738 2011-02-26 20:29:56 <ArtForz> 5 gbit/lane
2739 2011-02-26 20:30:08 <ArtForz> PCIe gen1 runs at 2.5gbit/lane
2740 2011-02-26 20:30:12 <lfm> pcie gen 2
2741 2011-02-26 20:30:47 <[Tycho]> It's switched in BIOS ?
2742 2011-02-26 20:30:56 <lfm> sometimes ya
2743 2011-02-26 20:31:05 <ArtForz> some buioses support manually forcing it
2744 2011-02-26 20:31:10 <ArtForz> *bioses
2745 2011-02-26 20:31:13 <ArtForz> most... don't
2746 2011-02-26 20:31:55 <ArtForz> though you can force a 2.0 link down to 1.0 from linux by manually poking PCIe config registers
2747 2011-02-26 20:32:13 * [Tycho] sometimes thinks about getting a raiser.
2748 2011-02-26 20:32:18 <lfm> prolly old BIOSes from when 2 was new and there were incompatible cards around
2749 2011-02-26 20:32:28 <ArtForz> btw, THAT was fun to figure out
2750 2011-02-26 20:33:02 <ArtForz> only place I found register documentation was... the PCIe 2.0 spec
2751 2011-02-26 20:33:07 riush has joined
2752 2011-02-26 20:33:23 <[Tycho]> Where else should it be ?
2753 2011-02-26 20:33:28 <UukGoblin> :-)
2754 2011-02-26 20:33:41 <lfm> well after all only ms needs to read such stuff!
2755 2011-02-26 20:34:55 <BlueMatt> Im surprised no one has found out a way to force that before
2756 2011-02-26 20:35:01 <ArtForz> I just hate specs where you need to pay $5k just to *read* them (unless you happen to have access via a .edu)
2757 2011-02-26 20:35:59 <BlueMatt> Im considering buying a .edu domain name to get access to such things when I get out of college
2758 2011-02-26 20:36:01 <ArtForz> about as fucking crazy as requiring NDAs to get the fucking register documentation for a 10/100 ethernet PHY
2759 2011-02-26 20:36:58 <UukGoblin> what do red LEDs on the 5970 mean?
2760 2011-02-26 20:37:07 <ArtForz> "bad"
2761 2011-02-26 20:37:14 <UukGoblin> what I thought
2762 2011-02-26 20:37:36 <ArtForz> the real fun part, you sign the NDA, get the datasheet and... it's just the bog-standard MII registers
2763 2011-02-26 20:37:53 <mmarker> ArtForz: you may use those docs to build nukes or sell the 31337 10Mbit technology to...oh god, who am I kidding. The NDA is probably there to hide the fact they're hardware is probably a crap design.
2764 2011-02-26 20:38:15 <ArtForz> Marvell is really bad for this crap
2765 2011-02-26 20:38:30 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2766 2011-02-26 20:38:30 <mmarker> Marvell? Oh god, I've heard horror stores about them.
2767 2011-02-26 20:38:33 <ArtForz> so is Broadcom
2768 2011-02-26 20:38:48 <ArtForz> = I try to avoid them wherever possible
2769 2011-02-26 20:38:51 <mmarker> Now Boradcom is really just a bunch of dicks when it came to that
2770 2011-02-26 20:38:51 <[Tycho]> Oh, i would like to know what do those LEDs in 5970 mean :)
2771 2011-02-26 20:39:39 <ArtForz> I *think* red led on 5970 = no power on PCIe 6/8 pin
2772 2011-02-26 20:39:57 <BlueMatt> So Intel is better then?
2773 2011-02-26 20:40:15 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: for docs? yes.
2774 2011-02-26 20:40:40 <mmarker> Intel isn't bad at all
2775 2011-02-26 20:40:41 <[Tycho]> I see at least two LEDs under the back heatplate, one is constantly on and one blinking.
2776 2011-02-26 20:40:51 <UukGoblin> 6/8? SMDAT/+3.3 on side B or TDI/TMS on side A?
2777 2011-02-26 20:41:12 <ArtForz> no, as in, aux power connectors
2778 2011-02-26 20:41:28 <UukGoblin> oh them
2779 2011-02-26 20:41:52 <ArtForz> yep
2780 2011-02-26 20:42:04 <UukGoblin> interesting... these would be my last suspects
2781 2011-02-26 20:42:17 <ArtForz> red led should light up if any of the +12Vs isn't present
2782 2011-02-26 20:42:32 <[Tycho]> Power is present.
2783 2011-02-26 20:43:00 <[Tycho]> Are you talking about those leds that are located at the back of PCB, near one of GPUs ?
2784 2011-02-26 20:43:25 <UukGoblin> yeah, I'm talking about the ones on the other side of the 5970 than the GPUs are
2785 2011-02-26 20:43:35 <ArtForz> yeah, back side of card
2786 2011-02-26 20:44:01 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, good idea with that +12 raiser mod... straight on the PCB...
2787 2011-02-26 20:44:01 <ArtForz> iirc red on = something wrong with +12V power or critical overtemp shutdown
2788 2011-02-26 20:45:06 <ArtForz> blinking green = core power problem
2789 2011-02-26 20:45:18 <[Tycho]> But the card is working... Ok, let's wait until it breaks.
2790 2011-02-26 20:45:42 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2791 2011-02-26 20:45:50 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, i have 5870+5970 on one 750W PSU. May it be the cause ?
2792 2011-02-26 20:46:04 <ArtForz> if it's a decent 750W, no
2793 2011-02-26 20:46:12 <[Tycho]> Good 750W.
2794 2011-02-26 20:46:28 <ArtForz> nah, should be fine
2795 2011-02-26 20:48:51 discHead has joined
2796 2011-02-26 20:48:51 discHead has quit (Changing host)
2797 2011-02-26 20:48:51 discHead has joined
2798 2011-02-26 20:49:21 discHead has quit (Client Quit)
2799 2011-02-26 20:50:33 echelon has joined
2800 2011-02-26 20:51:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Intel is awesome
2801 2011-02-26 20:51:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ever notice there is no such thing as Intel proprietary drivers?
2802 2011-02-26 20:52:00 <luke-jr> that's because they *really* support Linux :P
2803 2011-02-26 20:52:13 <BlueMatt> true, I love them too, I just wondered if they were a pita to work with when it comes to more technical stuff than just releasing drivers
2804 2011-02-26 20:52:27 <BlueMatt> Yea they donate quite a bit to the linux foundation too
2805 2011-02-26 20:53:09 * luke-jr is annoyed by companies making donations.
2806 2011-02-26 20:53:36 <luke-jr> in reality, it means they're overcharging and spending their customers' money
2807 2011-02-26 20:53:56 <BlueMatt> well what company doesnt overcharge, esp one that has such a monopoly
2808 2011-02-26 20:54:34 <luke-jr> ends don't justify the means
2809 2011-02-26 20:54:43 <BlueMatt> true
2810 2011-02-26 20:55:18 <gasteve> I tend to agree luke-jr ...it means the company is leeching off the wealth of their employees and customers to finance their agenda
2811 2011-02-26 20:55:19 <luke-jr> If i complain about a bank robber donating to charity, it's like you saying "well, what bank robber doesn't rob?" :P
2812 2011-02-26 20:55:31 <BlueMatt> I agree
2813 2011-02-26 20:55:38 bk128 has joined
2814 2011-02-26 20:55:39 <BlueMatt> but at the end of the day its the world we live in
2815 2011-02-26 20:55:51 <BlueMatt> plus 100K/year is nothing to a company like intel
2816 2011-02-26 20:55:57 <eps> i have no problem with it, it just means the company thinks having a strong linux is good for their business and customers
2817 2011-02-26 20:55:59 <mmarker> BlueMatt: It's good PR
2818 2011-02-26 20:56:04 <mmarker> so it's not "nothing"
2819 2011-02-26 20:56:13 <BlueMatt> good pr, but nothing to the bottom line
2820 2011-02-26 20:56:23 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but I can still interpret "donates to ______" as a negative thing for the company
2821 2011-02-26 20:56:30 <luke-jr> as in, I'll prefer another company that doesn't
2822 2011-02-26 20:56:39 <mmarker> Well, you can argue that having a positive view in some customer's eyes is part of the bottom line, as more sales.
2823 2011-02-26 20:56:58 <mmarker> But it's a fungable, not a direct "that is netting us +x to our profit"
2824 2011-02-26 20:56:59 <BlueMatt> the stock holders insist they overcharge like hell, and the stock holders own the company so they dont have much choice at the end of the day
2825 2011-02-26 20:57:05 sanduz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2826 2011-02-26 20:57:13 <gasteve> good pr can be good for the bottom line, but people shouldn't expect companies to donate to any cause or give them any credit for doing so (but they do)
2827 2011-02-26 20:57:59 <BlueMatt> at the end of the day, I respect intel for being open source friendly (mostly because of their drivers) but not really because they donate
2828 2011-02-26 20:58:20 <BlueMatt> After all some companies donate but dont care about being opensouce friendly
2829 2011-02-26 20:58:44 <luke-jr> -1 for overcharging, +2 for Linxu support
2830 2011-02-26 21:00:33 <BlueMatt> -inf from intel for overcharging -inf from every large company for overcharging...it all cancels out in the end
2831 2011-02-26 21:00:38 tectonic has joined
2832 2011-02-26 21:01:01 <luke-jr> all the more reason to stick to small/family companies
2833 2011-02-26 21:01:14 <BlueMatt> what small family company makes cpus/gpus?
2834 2011-02-26 21:02:08 <luke-jr> not sure
2835 2011-02-26 21:02:32 <luke-jr> once upon a time, ARM was small :P
2836 2011-02-26 21:02:45 mmarker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2837 2011-02-26 21:03:47 <dissipate> BlueMatt, i don't know, sounds expensive though.
2838 2011-02-26 21:04:23 <luke-jr> dissipate: CPUs at least cost < 1 USD to produce ea
2839 2011-02-26 21:04:57 <ArtForz> bullshit
2840 2011-02-26 21:04:58 <BlueMatt> no, modern cpus actually cost alot more than that
2841 2011-02-26 21:05:18 <luke-jr> they're marked up
2842 2011-02-26 21:05:29 <dissipate> luke-jr, that's not the issue. the issue is custom hardware. it costs millions to design and fabricate a custom chip.
2843 2011-02-26 21:05:34 <BlueMatt> they dont cost what they charge but its not <1 to make one
2844 2011-02-26 21:06:00 <luke-jr> dissipate: design is just like software, it's information
2845 2011-02-26 21:06:04 <luke-jr> not part of the cost of production
2846 2011-02-26 21:06:13 <BlueMatt> to a company it is
2847 2011-02-26 21:06:31 <sipa> do you mean the marginal cost for producing a single chip after production, or the average cost that includes spreading design and setup costs over the production lifetime of the chip?
2848 2011-02-26 21:06:48 <ArtForz> dont forget facility costs
2849 2011-02-26 21:06:50 <luke-jr> the cost of actually making it
2850 2011-02-26 21:06:56 <luke-jr> not just designing
2851 2011-02-26 21:07:03 <ArtForz> building and maintaining a fab costs a *lot*
2852 2011-02-26 21:07:10 <sipa> what ArtForz said
2853 2011-02-26 21:07:14 <ArtForz> and its useful life is a decade at best
2854 2011-02-26 21:07:18 <luke-jr> ArtForz: the fab isn't made to produce 1 CPU
2855 2011-02-26 21:07:23 <ArtForz> so?
2856 2011-02-26 21:07:36 <sipa> no, but it has to be paid with something
2857 2011-02-26 21:07:53 <sipa> one useful way of looking at it is distributing its cost over all chips produced with it
2858 2011-02-26 21:07:59 <ArtForz> yep
2859 2011-02-26 21:08:25 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2860 2011-02-26 21:19:30 BlueMatt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2861 2011-02-26 21:20:34 BlueMatt has joined
2862 2011-02-26 21:20:34 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
2863 2011-02-26 21:20:34 BlueMatt has joined
2864 2011-02-26 21:20:54 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2865 2011-02-26 21:22:31 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2866 2011-02-26 21:23:12 <BlueMatt> I think Diablo is killing my X
2867 2011-02-26 21:23:17 <BlueMatt> Im getting segfaults
2868 2011-02-26 21:23:54 sabalaba has joined
2869 2011-02-26 21:24:37 dishwara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2870 2011-02-26 21:25:20 mmarker has joined
2871 2011-02-26 21:25:20 mmarker has quit (Changing host)
2872 2011-02-26 21:25:20 mmarker has joined
2873 2011-02-26 21:34:56 bk128 has joined
2874 2011-02-26 21:35:49 <lfm> segfaults can also be a symptom of too much overclock
2875 2011-02-26 21:36:03 <BlueMatt> no oc beyond factory
2876 2011-02-26 21:36:19 <lfm> temp ok?
2877 2011-02-26 21:38:01 <BlueMatt> yea <70
2878 2011-02-26 21:38:19 <BlueMatt> maybe ill turn the fans up...
2879 2011-02-26 21:38:28 brunner has joined
2880 2011-02-26 21:38:36 <lfm> try an old version of miner if you have one around
2881 2011-02-26 21:39:01 <lfm> 70c should be fine
2882 2011-02-26 21:40:02 <BlueMatt> Im betting its the slight oc, it has never caused a problem before (even under memtestG80 stress testing) but it must be because diablo crashes X like once every 8 hours
2883 2011-02-26 21:42:56 btcminer has quit (Quit: leaving)
2884 2011-02-26 21:44:30 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2885 2011-02-26 21:48:01 xelister has joined
2886 2011-02-26 21:48:01 xelister has quit (Changing host)
2887 2011-02-26 21:48:01 xelister has joined
2888 2011-02-26 21:49:15 sabalaba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2889 2011-02-26 21:51:04 PitiPoisson is now known as DjeZAeL
2890 2011-02-26 21:53:32 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2891 2011-02-26 21:55:31 <luke-jr> dwdollar: poke
2892 2011-02-26 22:01:46 <mmarker> grr. Unstable websites suck
2893 2011-02-26 22:06:00 skeledrew1 has joined
2894 2011-02-26 22:06:37 lfm has quit (Quit: brb)
2895 2011-02-26 22:06:48 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2896 2011-02-26 22:08:15 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2897 2011-02-26 22:14:07 bk128 has joined
2898 2011-02-26 22:14:39 RandomTime has joined
2899 2011-02-26 22:19:06 Takyoji has joined
2900 2011-02-26 22:20:04 <Takyoji> Would be swell if someone packaged the bitcoin client for Ubuntu, and tried getting it in the mainstream repositories.
2901 2011-02-26 22:20:45 <sipa> it exists
2902 2011-02-26 22:20:54 <sipa> not in the main repository though
2903 2011-02-26 22:21:14 <Takyoji> as a PPA or?
2904 2011-02-26 22:21:15 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2905 2011-02-26 22:21:16 <gribble> 110719
2906 2011-02-26 22:30:50 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2907 2011-02-26 22:39:18 mmarker has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2908 2011-02-26 22:43:00 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
2909 2011-02-26 22:46:07 danonura has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2910 2011-02-26 22:48:16 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2911 2011-02-26 22:48:42 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2912 2011-02-26 22:49:20 molecular has joined
2913 2011-02-26 22:49:26 <molecular> ;;bc,stats
2914 2011-02-26 22:49:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110726 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 153 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 15 hours, 38 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 54073.57397358
2915 2011-02-26 22:53:09 sabalaba has joined
2916 2011-02-26 23:00:35 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2917 2011-02-26 23:01:31 molecular has joined
2918 2011-02-26 23:02:07 genjix has joined
2919 2011-02-26 23:03:05 genjix has quit (Changing host)
2920 2011-02-26 23:03:05 genjix has joined
2921 2011-02-26 23:04:44 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2922 2011-02-26 23:07:52 luke-jr_ has joined
2923 2011-02-26 23:08:41 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr[Q]
2924 2011-02-26 23:10:16 <dwdollar> luke-jr: hi there
2925 2011-02-26 23:10:28 <luke-jr> dwdollar: you getting my emails? :P
2926 2011-02-26 23:11:27 <dwdollar> luke-jr: I'm playing catch up :)
2927 2011-02-26 23:11:32 <luke-jr> ah ok
2928 2011-02-26 23:11:39 <luke-jr> just wanted to make sure there wasn't a blackhole :P
2929 2011-02-26 23:11:51 <luke-jr> dwdollar: the most recent one is confusing though :P
2930 2011-02-26 23:12:22 <luke-jr> I deposited 10 TBC (0.01048576 BTC) and it shows 0.0100 BTC on the page
2931 2011-02-26 23:12:34 <dwdollar> ok, I see it
2932 2011-02-26 23:12:40 <dwdollar> let me check
2933 2011-02-26 23:12:51 <luke-jr> I would have thought at least it'd show 0.0104 BTC
2934 2011-02-26 23:13:19 Cusipzzz has joined
2935 2011-02-26 23:13:52 imagi has joined
2936 2011-02-26 23:14:31 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2937 2011-02-26 23:15:18 brunner has joined
2938 2011-02-26 23:15:35 <uni4dfx> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/02/26/amd_radeon_hd_6990_antilles_sneek_peek/
2939 2011-02-26 23:15:52 sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2940 2011-02-26 23:15:55 <uni4dfx> still won't be worth it
2941 2011-02-26 23:16:45 <luke-jr> dwdollar: also, I can't seem to see a list of open trades on the new site-- is that simply because there are none?
2942 2011-02-26 23:16:49 <dwdollar> luke-jr: The precision is technically .0001 for all currencies, but each currency has it's unique format, to make it pretty. But, the format isn't widespread yet on all the pages.
2943 2011-02-26 23:17:03 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2944 2011-02-26 23:17:23 <luke-jr> dwdollar: well, it's weird that it's showing .0001 precision, but only .01 precise data :P
2945 2011-02-26 23:17:24 <dwdollar> luke-jr: Nope, not any at the moment. :-(
2946 2011-02-26 23:17:55 <luke-jr> if it rounds to .0001, it should still show .0104 or .0105
2947 2011-02-26 23:17:59 <dwdollar> When I format it, BTC will be .01, USD will be .01, and GAU, .0001
2948 2011-02-26 23:18:14 <luke-jr> dwdollar: that will be a problem, since TBC requires full base unit precision
2949 2011-02-26 23:18:41 <luke-jr> why not do as-precise-as-is-needed like .21 bitcoin will?
2950 2011-02-26 23:18:56 <luke-jr> so 0.00000001 BTC shows as 0.00000001 and 0.01 shows as 0.01?
2951 2011-02-26 23:19:06 <dwdollar> I suppose I can use 8, as long as it doesn't confuse people.
2952 2011-02-26 23:19:23 <luke-jr> well, 0.0100000 would be ugly
2953 2011-02-26 23:20:07 <luke-jr> could always include a script that transforms the decimals beyond 2 digits to a grey or smaller size too
2954 2011-02-26 23:20:15 noagendamarket has joined
2955 2011-02-26 23:20:38 <dwdollar> Yeah, that might be the best way to handle it.
2956 2011-02-26 23:21:31 <luke-jr> then the TBC script can translate it to TBC, and the BTC script can do that style thing
2957 2011-02-26 23:21:34 <luke-jr> :p
2958 2011-02-26 23:24:17 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2959 2011-02-26 23:24:19 <luke-jr> bbiab
2960 2011-02-26 23:26:07 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
2961 2011-02-26 23:26:07 noagendamarket has joined
2962 2011-02-26 23:26:41 <dwdollar> I'll look at it next week after I get the new site running smoothly.
2963 2011-02-26 23:27:51 <sipa> at which number of confirmations does the bitcoin gui interface switch from "unconfirmed" to "confirmed" ?
2964 2011-02-26 23:28:16 <ArtForz> iirc 6
2965 2011-02-26 23:30:31 <UukGoblin> I think we fried one of the 5970s
2966 2011-02-26 23:30:45 <UukGoblin> it's showing up the two red LEDs everytime, everywhere, under all conditions
2967 2011-02-26 23:31:54 <ArtForz> are you sure the PSU is good?
2968 2011-02-26 23:32:18 <ArtForz> = tried the same PCIe aux power connectors on a different card?
2969 2011-02-26 23:32:39 <UukGoblin> yup
2970 2011-02-26 23:32:48 <ArtForz> weird.
2971 2011-02-26 23:32:54 <UukGoblin> put it in 3 different mobos with 3 different corsair AX850 PSUs
2972 2011-02-26 23:33:05 <UukGoblin> also as the only card on the main pci-express
2973 2011-02-26 23:33:26 <ArtForz> guess it's dead then
2974 2011-02-26 23:33:46 <ArtForz> so... wtf did you do to it?
2975 2011-02-26 23:33:58 <UukGoblin> we were testing home-made raisers, that's all
2976 2011-02-26 23:34:10 <UukGoblin> didn't seem to break any other card
2977 2011-02-26 23:34:13 <ArtForz> thats... weird
2978 2011-02-26 23:34:32 <UukGoblin> mhm
2979 2011-02-26 23:34:39 <UukGoblin> do you think baking it might help?
2980 2011-02-26 23:34:41 <ArtForz> unless you shorted something, it shouldnt kill a card
2981 2011-02-26 23:34:47 <UukGoblin> I think it's one of the ones that's still on warranty
2982 2011-02-26 23:34:59 <UukGoblin> I don't think we could've shorted anything
2983 2011-02-26 23:35:09 <ArtForz> well, just RMA it then
2984 2011-02-26 23:35:09 <UukGoblin> we tested the raisers for short circuits before use of course
2985 2011-02-26 23:35:41 <ArtForz> 2*red *usually* means it's not getting power from PCIe aux connectors at all
2986 2011-02-26 23:35:45 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2987 2011-02-26 23:35:46 <gribble> 110735
2988 2011-02-26 23:35:58 <UukGoblin> yeah, noticed that too
2989 2011-02-26 23:36:21 <ArtForz> so I guess something in the VRM section decided to say goodbye
2990 2011-02-26 23:36:27 <UukGoblin> maybe one of the pins got dirty or doesn't connect well...
2991 2011-02-26 23:36:31 <ArtForz> was that a relatively new card?
2992 2011-02-26 23:36:37 <UukGoblin> one of our first ones
2993 2011-02-26 23:36:44 <ArtForz> hurrm, thats weird then
2994 2011-02-26 23:36:45 <UukGoblin> so about 2-3 months old now
2995 2011-02-26 23:37:24 <UukGoblin> /almost/ sure it worked yesterday
2996 2011-02-26 23:37:25 <ArtForz> I've so far didnt have one die after prolonged use, well, except for a overvolted 5970 w/ AC cooler
2997 2011-02-26 23:37:39 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2998 2011-02-26 23:37:51 <uni4dfx> will it even be possible to calculate a block 1 year from now?
2999 2011-02-26 23:37:59 <uni4dfx> on your own i mean
3000 2011-02-26 23:38:03 <ArtForz> sure
3001 2011-02-26 23:38:03 <UukGoblin> we took our older dodgy cooler and replaced it with AC today, but didn't overvolt anything
3002 2011-02-26 23:38:18 <uni4dfx> how? it's gonna take 50 supercomputers to do it
3003 2011-02-26 23:38:37 <UukGoblin> uni4dfx, just need to be lucky
3004 2011-02-26 23:38:56 <ArtForz> uni4dfx: doubt it
3005 2011-02-26 23:38:57 <UukGoblin> and no, supercomputers are not very effective at generating
3006 2011-02-26 23:39:09 <ArtForz> they actually suck at it. badly.
3007 2011-02-26 23:39:17 <uni4dfx> well GPU based supercomputers anyway
3008 2011-02-26 23:39:31 <ArtForz> theres not exactly a lot of ATI based supercomputers around
3009 2011-02-26 23:39:46 btcminer has joined
3010 2011-02-26 23:39:55 <uni4dfx> so? i was just speaking comparatively
3011 2011-02-26 23:40:32 <ArtForz> unless value of bitcoin completely explodes, it's... very unlikely
3012 2011-02-26 23:40:59 <UukGoblin> hrm
3013 2011-02-26 23:41:06 <UukGoblin> value exploding is likely imho, actually ;-]
3014 2011-02-26 23:41:07 BCBot has joined
3015 2011-02-26 23:41:09 <uni4dfx> bur tight now you need like 8 5970's to get anything out
3016 2011-02-26 23:41:15 <uni4dfx> right*
3017 2011-02-26 23:41:26 <UukGoblin> naah
3018 2011-02-26 23:41:35 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,calc 4400000
3019 2011-02-26 23:41:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 9 hours, 53 minutes, and 9 seconds
3020 2011-02-26 23:41:50 imagi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3021 2011-02-26 23:41:50 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 650000
3022 2011-02-26 23:41:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 650000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 2 days, 18 hours, 55 minutes, and 13 seconds
3023 2011-02-26 23:42:07 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3024 2011-02-26 23:42:22 <uni4dfx> and tomorrow you'll need to almost double your hadrware power to get back to the current rate
3025 2011-02-26 23:42:25 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calcd 650000 400000
3026 2011-02-26 23:42:25 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 650000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 400000, is 4 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 10 minutes, and 56 seconds
3027 2011-02-26 23:42:36 <uni4dfx> and since you need to do that every 2 weeks, how can it ever be worth it?
3028 2011-02-26 23:42:46 <ArtForz> 1.5 != 2 last time I checked
3029 2011-02-26 23:42:53 <ArtForz> hyperbole much?
3030 2011-02-26 23:43:00 <uni4dfx> 1.5 weeks?
3031 2011-02-26 23:43:06 <mekel> what controls the supplied difficutly
3032 2011-02-26 23:43:06 <UukGoblin> I'd like an estimate on when will the 200k'th block be generated
3033 2011-02-26 23:43:18 <ArtForz> 55k / 36.5k is about 1.5, not 2
3034 2011-02-26 23:43:24 <uni4dfx> ok still
3035 2011-02-26 23:44:07 <uni4dfx> that means if you have 8 cards you'll need... 10?
3036 2011-02-26 23:44:16 <UukGoblin> hours
3037 2011-02-26 23:44:18 <uni4dfx> pardon, 12
3038 2011-02-26 23:44:24 <uni4dfx> so 4 more
3039 2011-02-26 23:44:33 <btcminer> its seems, i cant create new workers on deepbit
3040 2011-02-26 23:44:37 <uni4dfx> they'll never pay for themselves in 2 weeks
3041 2011-02-26 23:45:01 <ArtForz> err... so?
3042 2011-02-26 23:45:20 <ArtForz> unless market price keeps rising indefinetly, difficulty will level off
3043 2011-02-26 23:45:36 <eps> can't the difficulty go down?
3044 2011-02-26 23:45:41 <ArtForz> sure can
3045 2011-02-26 23:45:52 <uni4dfx> eps theoretically it can, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen
3046 2011-02-26 23:46:07 <UukGoblin> happened about once in the whole bitcoin history afaik ;-]
3047 2011-02-26 23:46:09 <UukGoblin> hi eps
3048 2011-02-26 23:46:15 <mekel> hm
3049 2011-02-26 23:46:17 <ArtForz> I think thrice
3050 2011-02-26 23:46:23 <eps> hey Uuk :)
3051 2011-02-26 23:46:27 <molecular> ;;bc,stats
3052 2011-02-26 23:46:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110737 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 142 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 14 hours, 33 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 54141.73938255
3053 2011-02-26 23:46:31 <ArtForz> it probably will go down after block 210000
3054 2011-02-26 23:46:45 <mekel> so r they gunna make blocks worth more as difficulthy increases?
3055 2011-02-26 23:46:53 <sipa> no
3056 2011-02-26 23:46:58 <ArtForz> nope
3057 2011-02-26 23:46:58 <uni4dfx> ArtForz so you're saying it's still profitable to invest into hardware? *skeptical-look*
3058 2011-02-26 23:47:02 <sipa> that would defeat the purpose
3059 2011-02-26 23:47:12 <mekel> hm so mining will be pointless soon?
3060 2011-02-26 23:47:16 <sipa> no
3061 2011-02-26 23:47:18 <ArtForz> well, if you have really cheap power, or are replacing electrical heating, sure
3062 2011-02-26 23:47:19 <UukGoblin> well
3063 2011-02-26 23:47:24 <molecular> wow, that almost 50% diff increase
3064 2011-02-26 23:47:25 <sipa> it may become pointless for home users
3065 2011-02-26 23:47:44 <UukGoblin> I /would/ appreciate some higher transaction fees ;-]
3066 2011-02-26 23:47:57 <uni4dfx> it's already pointless for home users imo
3067 2011-02-26 23:48:02 <UukGoblin> but unlikely they'll happen any time soon
3068 2011-02-26 23:48:13 <mekel> as it becomes more and more worthless for people with lower end cards to make money do u think they will stop mining, then difficulty will decrease again?
3069 2011-02-26 23:48:16 <UukGoblin> uni4dfx, define "home" user
3070 2011-02-26 23:48:37 <ArtForz> guess I'll order another batch of 100 ASICs
3071 2011-02-26 23:48:46 <uni4dfx> well someone who can't afford eight 5970's at once
3072 2011-02-26 23:48:55 <sipa> ArtForz: are they all online now?
3073 2011-02-26 23:48:58 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, get some for me too! ;-]
3074 2011-02-26 23:49:02 <molecular> ArtForz, your first batch online?
3075 2011-02-26 23:49:37 <ArtForz> half of it
3076 2011-02-26 23:49:44 <molecular> nice
3077 2011-02-26 23:50:03 <ArtForz> had to redesign power supply to my fan controller
3078 2011-02-26 23:50:03 <gasteve> can difficulty actually decrease?
3079 2011-02-26 23:50:06 <ArtForz> yes
3080 2011-02-26 23:50:07 <sipa> gasteve: yes
3081 2011-02-26 23:50:30 <sipa> not that ArtForz' asics are remotely visible in the network speed...
3082 2011-02-26 23:50:34 <ArtForz> nope
3083 2011-02-26 23:50:45 <ArtForz> but they're sure power efficient
3084 2011-02-26 23:50:51 <UukGoblin> sipa, with your nice growth data, can you estimate the time when block 210,000 will be generated? :-]
3085 2011-02-26 23:50:53 <ArtForz> melted a 5.25" molex plug while testing with fans @ 100%
3086 2011-02-26 23:51:00 uni4dfx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3087 2011-02-26 23:51:11 <sipa> UukGoblin: i can do an estimation yes, but it won't be accurate :)
3088 2011-02-26 23:51:27 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, wow you must have mad fans
3089 2011-02-26 23:51:35 <gasteve> it'll be interesting to see what happens as difficulty gets higher
3090 2011-02-26 23:51:40 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, how many amps was the plug getting?
3091 2011-02-26 23:51:48 <ArtForz> about 8-9
3092 2011-02-26 23:51:51 <UukGoblin> sipa, that'd be cool ;-]
3093 2011-02-26 23:51:58 <gasteve> will people give it up...or buy more hardware
3094 2011-02-26 23:52:00 <UukGoblin> that's within spec!
3095 2011-02-26 23:52:10 <sipa> let's see
3096 2011-02-26 23:52:16 <ArtForz> well, then it melted within spec...
3097 2011-02-26 23:52:31 <ArtForz> actually I dont think 5.25" molexes are specced for 10A
3098 2011-02-26 23:52:34 * UukGoblin shakes head
3099 2011-02-26 23:52:44 <UukGoblin> wikipedia said 11
3100 2011-02-26 23:52:45 <gasteve> seems like after the novelty wears off, people would just give it up...maybe list their cards on fleabay
3101 2011-02-26 23:53:13 Mango-chan has quit ()
3102 2011-02-26 23:53:45 <UukGoblin> gasteve, either way, generation will still be happening
3103 2011-02-26 23:54:07 <gasteve> it's interesting though...I've had thoughts that I would have been better off just spending $1300 on bitcoins directly...if enough people made that choice, the price of btc would rise, making the hardware investment more worthwhile...interesting dynamic there
3104 2011-02-26 23:54:27 <UukGoblin> gasteve, free market for you
3105 2011-02-26 23:54:46 <UukGoblin> that's what we'd have if the gov'ts didn't chip their noses in our affairs
3106 2011-02-26 23:54:46 <gasteve> yep
3107 2011-02-26 23:54:56 <UukGoblin> ;-]
3108 2011-02-26 23:55:09 <ArtForz> seems it depends a lot on the header used
3109 2011-02-26 23:55:32 <UukGoblin> sure
3110 2011-02-26 23:55:38 <UukGoblin> btw I don't get these round connectors
3111 2011-02-26 23:55:45 <UukGoblin> flat surface seems so much more reasonable
3112 2011-02-26 23:55:54 <ArtForz> most are specced for 6.5A it seems, with a few for 10A
3113 2011-02-26 23:56:16 <UukGoblin> I wonder what the corsairs are...
3114 2011-02-26 23:56:31 <UukGoblin> we're giving them about 8.5A per wire
3115 2011-02-26 23:56:37 <UukGoblin> didn't notice any melting so far
3116 2011-02-26 23:56:40 <gasteve> I had a lot of fun building a rig though...it had been quite a few years since I had built a computer like that
3117 2011-02-26 23:56:43 <ArtForz> I guess it also depends just how cheap of a chinese knowckoff connector your PSU manufacturer is using
3118 2011-02-26 23:57:03 mmarker has joined
3119 2011-02-26 23:57:12 amiller has joined
3120 2011-02-26 23:57:39 <amiller> is bitcoin like tor
3121 2011-02-26 23:57:44 <amiller> in that by participating, it helps everyone else too
3122 2011-02-26 23:57:45 <ArtForz> btw, most more modern connectors *do* use square pins
3123 2011-02-26 23:57:55 <amiller> even if i don't use it actively
3124 2011-02-26 23:58:06 <mmarker> Ok, dumb block question 1million from me. The Merkle Root is the root of a merkle tree of the transactions in a block, but I'm looking at the raw blocks on blockexplorer, and there's more branches in the tree than transactions. What am I missing?
3125 2011-02-26 23:58:20 <ArtForz> at least ATX 20/24, ATX12V/EPS12V, PCIe power
3126 2011-02-26 23:58:52 <gasteve> amiller: not exactly like tor, but more clients means more nodes validating an propagating transactions
3127 2011-02-26 23:59:09 <gasteve> makes the network overall more resilient to attack
3128 2011-02-26 23:59:13 <ArtForz> all same pin size, yet like 3 variants rated at 6/10/16A for crimp terminals
3129 2011-02-26 23:59:54 <ArtForz> basically goes "thin bronze, thick bronze, copper"