1 2011-02-27 00:00:15 <amiller> i understand that at a technical level, transactions are not anonymous, in fact they're inherently publicly validated
2 2011-02-27 00:00:19 <amiller> but is it expected that something like tor would work
3 2011-02-27 00:00:32 <amiller> for some kind of anonymizing effect
4 2011-02-27 00:00:37 <ArtForz> mmarker: where?
5 2011-02-27 00:00:47 <mmarker> ArtForz: for example:
6 2011-02-27 00:00:55 <gasteve> they are anonymous in the sense that no one knows who has the private keys that go with the public keys in the transactions
7 2011-02-27 00:01:00 <mmarker> http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000039da98d3e2cc5d353ce6507bc14825cf2973581a3bb5544f2d0e
8 2011-02-27 00:01:09 <sipa> how many (new) testnet blocks are there?
9 2011-02-27 00:01:26 <mmarker> That mrkl_tree seems to have more hashes than the # of transactions in the block
10 2011-02-27 00:01:28 <UukGoblin> ArtForz, ah, yeah, these ones do indeed, I noticed
11 2011-02-27 00:01:30 <gasteve> and you can generate as many keys as you like (every transaction could be a unique key)...so no one would be able to connect multiple transactions
12 2011-02-27 00:01:44 <ArtForz> mmarker: it's a *tree*
13 2011-02-27 00:01:56 pogden has joined
14 2011-02-27 00:01:57 <mmarker> ArtForz: Got that much, but what are the leaves?
15 2011-02-27 00:02:01 <ArtForz> first 10 are leaves
16 2011-02-27 00:02:02 <mmarker> Just 2 random transactions?
17 2011-02-27 00:02:16 <mmarker> Oh, in order of time
18 2011-02-27 00:02:26 <mmarker> wait, no, order in the block
19 2011-02-27 00:02:29 <btcminer> https://clearcoin.appspot.com/e Interesting app!
20 2011-02-27 00:02:36 <ArtForz> yep, same order as in block
21 2011-02-27 00:02:46 <ArtForz> after that come the higher levels
22 2011-02-27 00:02:52 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
23 2011-02-27 00:02:52 <mmarker> Yea, I got that
24 2011-02-27 00:03:01 RandomTime has left ()
25 2011-02-27 00:03:07 <mmarker> basically, I'd need those to help keep track of transactions in a light manner.
26 2011-02-27 00:03:20 <ArtForz> so it's 10,5,3,2,1
27 2011-02-27 00:03:28 pogden has joined
28 2011-02-27 00:03:45 <mmarker> Gotcha
29 2011-02-27 00:04:24 <ArtForz> if you have a odd number of hashes at a level, just double the last one
30 2011-02-27 00:04:32 <mmarker> Oh, ok
31 2011-02-27 00:05:26 TD has joined
32 2011-02-27 00:05:28 <ArtForz> so for example 0c49... gets appended to itself to make c80f...
33 2011-02-27 00:05:38 <mmarker> Gotcha
34 2011-02-27 00:05:42 <ArtForz> well, appended to itself and double-sha256'd
35 2011-02-27 00:05:46 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
36 2011-02-27 00:05:59 bk128 has joined
37 2011-02-27 00:06:25 pogden has joined
38 2011-02-27 00:07:31 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
39 2011-02-27 00:08:11 pogden has joined
40 2011-02-27 00:08:50 <sipa> can someone send me some testnet coins?
41 2011-02-27 00:09:21 <mmarker> Ok, back to hacking my app
42 2011-02-27 00:09:48 <comboy> sipa: give addr
43 2011-02-27 00:10:13 <sipa> muG9ta16YJ489WorobBhg2Kv3HF6SHh9gZ
44 2011-02-27 00:10:16 <sipa> amount doesn't matter
45 2011-02-27 00:11:05 <comboy> sent
46 2011-02-27 00:12:47 <sipa> wow, i have never seen so many (test)bitcoins :)
47 2011-02-27 00:13:25 <comboy> heh, now you are test-rich
48 2011-02-27 00:13:27 <mmarker> Hehe
49 2011-02-27 00:13:28 Jeroenz0r has quit ()
50 2011-02-27 00:13:59 <mekel> thats test-leet
51 2011-02-27 00:14:51 Jeroenz0r has joined
52 2011-02-27 00:14:51 Jeroenz0r has quit (Changing host)
53 2011-02-27 00:14:51 Jeroenz0r has joined
54 2011-02-27 00:16:08 <gasteve> is there a tool that can be used to interactively test the RPC interface?
55 2011-02-27 00:19:17 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 1250 3.7025
56 2011-02-27 00:19:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1250 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 3.7025, is 3 hours, 32 minutes, and 1 second
57 2011-02-27 00:19:46 <flok> ok if i rebuild bitcoind from source (of course with all these nice cpu targeting flags), the suddenly it /does/ work (the rpc part)
58 2011-02-27 00:21:32 Zarutian has joined
59 2011-02-27 00:27:14 <amiller> i found this to be really helpful https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity i think that answers exactly the question i had
60 2011-02-27 00:27:17 <bk128> sipa is that the test difficulty?
61 2011-02-27 00:27:19 <amiller> how many people support something like this?
62 2011-02-27 00:27:49 <sipa> bk128: yeah, not sure whether it's still multiplied by 1/2
63 2011-02-27 00:27:56 <amiller> it seems like the summary is, you help bitcoin support anonymous money transfer by running an automated exchange and putting some BTC in it
64 2011-02-27 00:28:31 <mmarker> amiller: Kinda. But you're close
65 2011-02-27 00:28:58 <mmarker> The essence is there. You, as a client, help to make sure blocks are valid
66 2011-02-27 00:29:32 <mmarker> And to make people want to do work to make sure blocks are valid, you get some BTC if you succeed.
67 2011-02-27 00:31:09 sgornick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
68 2011-02-27 00:31:27 <amiller> it seems to me like you can do a lot of work to help validate blocks, but that doesn't necessarily improve the ease of anonymous transfers
69 2011-02-27 00:32:03 <amiller> only by running an automated anonymous exchange do you do that
70 2011-02-27 00:32:07 <mmarker> The anonymous nature of the transfer is that you don't know who;s the holder of the address.
71 2011-02-27 00:33:02 <mmarker> You can sit there and walk all the blocks, following all the bitcoins around, but you'll never know which physical person holds the coins.
72 2011-02-27 00:33:25 <mmarker> Every time coins are generated, you get a new address IIRC
73 2011-02-27 00:33:53 <sipa> indeed
74 2011-02-27 00:34:01 <amiller> if i wanted to make an anonymous donation to wikileaks, what steps would i take
75 2011-02-27 00:34:08 <amiller> is there a straightforward walk through for a scenario like that
76 2011-02-27 00:34:10 <mmarker> If I send sipa coins, I can generate a new address, send the coins there, then send them on
77 2011-02-27 00:34:16 <JFK911> ;;bc,stat
78 2011-02-27 00:34:17 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
79 2011-02-27 00:34:18 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
80 2011-02-27 00:34:21 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110751 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 128 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 12 hours, 58 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 54347.27067964
81 2011-02-27 00:34:29 <mmarker> amiller: Get wikileaks bitcoin address
82 2011-02-27 00:34:30 <JFK911> dun dun dun
83 2011-02-27 00:34:36 <JFK911> 55000!
84 2011-02-27 00:34:37 <JFK911> WOW
85 2011-02-27 00:34:38 <sipa> amiller: you would send your coins in separate times to a mtgox account
86 2011-02-27 00:34:43 <JFK911> the gravy train is OVER
87 2011-02-27 00:34:50 <sipa> withdraw them to a different address in other amounts
88 2011-02-27 00:35:04 <sipa> and send those to wikileaks
89 2011-02-27 00:35:20 <amiller> what purpose does the mgtox serve there
90 2011-02-27 00:35:26 <mmarker> Yup. There's even a bitcoin laundering service
91 2011-02-27 00:35:26 <amiller> couldn't i just transfer them directly to my other addresses
92 2011-02-27 00:35:36 <sipa> no, those could be traced
93 2011-02-27 00:35:42 <sipa> as transactions are public
94 2011-02-27 00:35:47 <amiller> ok sipa, i think i'm with you
95 2011-02-27 00:35:51 <amiller> it seems to me like bitcoin laundering
96 2011-02-27 00:35:53 <amiller> behaves like tor
97 2011-02-27 00:35:57 <mmarker> DING DING DING
98 2011-02-27 00:36:03 <amiller> mgtox acts like a proxy
99 2011-02-27 00:36:10 <amiller> but mgtox is a point of failure
100 2011-02-27 00:36:15 <mmarker> The upside is you can trace where each and every coin goes through the system
101 2011-02-27 00:36:17 <amiller> is there an equivalent of tor for bitcoin
102 2011-02-27 00:36:20 <amiller> a decentralized system of relays
103 2011-02-27 00:36:25 <mmarker> the problem is, you have a LOT of crap to wade through
104 2011-02-27 00:37:10 sgornick has joined
105 2011-02-27 00:37:47 <amiller> from the wiki:" Help other people stay anonymous
106 2011-02-27 00:37:47 <amiller> Set up a real external mixing service."
107 2011-02-27 00:38:00 <amiller> i read that the same way i'd read the phrase "help other people stay anonymous, set up a tor relay
108 2011-02-27 00:38:26 mmarker has quit (Quit: Leaving)
109 2011-02-27 00:38:29 <kupo> torservers.net
110 2011-02-27 00:38:32 <kupo> booya
111 2011-02-27 00:39:19 <amiller> well running a tor relay isn't the same as running an "external mixing service"
112 2011-02-27 00:40:40 gavinandresen has joined
113 2011-02-27 00:41:12 <amiller> i found some apps like this https://bitlaundry.appspot.com/ that seem to be like 'proxies'
114 2011-02-27 00:41:25 <amiller> but i haven't found anything that's analogous to tor, something decentralized
115 2011-02-27 00:42:03 <echelon> tor isn't exactly decentralized either
116 2011-02-27 00:42:57 <amiller> i'm proud to participate by running a relay, i'm under the impression that that helps the cause of anonymity for everyone
117 2011-02-27 00:43:06 <amiller> of course i might be over estimating its impact ...
118 2011-02-27 00:43:19 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
119 2011-02-27 00:43:33 <amiller> still, i would want to operate a small bitcoin relay if it would help anonymous transactions
120 2011-02-27 00:43:53 <echelon> the problem with the laundry sites is that if there isn't enough other people laundering as well, you'll just end up with the same coins
121 2011-02-27 00:44:05 <echelon> bitcoin relay?
122 2011-02-27 00:44:21 <dirtyfilthy> how do you trust the relays?
123 2011-02-27 00:44:34 <sipa> amiller: the problem is, the larger it is, the easier it is to anonimize things with it
124 2011-02-27 00:45:06 <gavinandresen> I'm thinking about writing some code to mix coins between two wallets on the same machine and, maybe, Mt. Gox (using the Mt Gox Send BTC api)....
125 2011-02-27 00:45:26 <amiller> dirtyfilthy: the same way you'd trust tor relays, if that analogy is stil applicable here
126 2011-02-27 00:45:56 <dirtyfilthy> tor relays have onion encryption
127 2011-02-27 00:45:59 <echelon> running a bitcoin node doesn't make you more anonymous as not running one
128 2011-02-27 00:46:00 <dirtyfilthy> you don't need to trust them
129 2011-02-27 00:46:18 <amiller> echelon: i agree with that, the same way running a tor relay doesn't make you more anonymous - but it helps everyone else
130 2011-02-27 00:46:19 <dirtyfilthy> if i send you bitcoins i need to trust you to send them on
131 2011-02-27 00:46:23 endian7000 has joined
132 2011-02-27 00:46:31 <echelon> not in the same way
133 2011-02-27 00:47:38 <amiller> dirtyfilthy: is there any alternative system?
134 2011-02-27 00:47:58 <echelon> what you can do is set up your bitcoin node as a tor hidden service
135 2011-02-27 00:48:02 <dirtyfilthy> amiller: no idea, i just wouldn
136 2011-02-27 00:48:07 <dirtyfilthy> t trust some random relay
137 2011-02-27 00:48:38 <amiller> i feel like there might be a way for the relay to be trustworthy, or for the trust in the relay not to be needed
138 2011-02-27 00:48:41 <amiller> just like with tor
139 2011-02-27 00:49:00 <echelon> there is no need for trust among peers
140 2011-02-27 00:49:15 <echelon> the size of the network overwhelms individual bad nodes
141 2011-02-27 00:49:43 <amiller> right
142 2011-02-27 00:49:50 <amiller> still it seems like it would be profitable to be a bad node
143 2011-02-27 00:49:55 <dirtyfilthy> echelon: i'm just curious as to what stops me running a relay, waiting until 1000BTC comes across it, and then stealing it and running away
144 2011-02-27 00:50:09 <amiller> there's no analogous disincentive-to-honesty running a tor relay
145 2011-02-27 00:50:15 <amiller> unless there were a market for blackmail i suppose
146 2011-02-27 00:50:20 <echelon> dirtyfilthy, there's no way for someone to steal bitcoins
147 2011-02-27 00:50:30 <echelon> just by running a node
148 2011-02-27 00:50:40 <amiller> echelon: we're not talking about running a node, but running an anonymous exchange
149 2011-02-27 00:50:46 <dirtyfilthy> yeah, but that doesn't help me with blockchain anonyminity
150 2011-02-27 00:51:34 <echelon> so something outside of the bitcoin network? ^_-
151 2011-02-27 00:52:03 <amiller> echelon, yes i thin so
152 2011-02-27 00:52:20 <sipa> you send it X btc
153 2011-02-27 00:52:25 <amiller> echelon: in the sense that bitcoin doesn't inherently implement 'anonymous exchange' but it can be implemented using a system similar to tor
154 2011-02-27 00:52:27 <sipa> it sends you X btc back
155 2011-02-27 00:52:35 <sipa> but not the coins you sent it
156 2011-02-27 00:53:09 <amiller> sipa: or even more correctly, you send it X btc, and it sends X btc to a pseudonymous address of your choice
157 2011-02-27 00:53:20 <echelon> the issue of anonymity can be resolved by building in a system of coin mixers in the client
158 2011-02-27 00:53:22 <sipa> indeed
159 2011-02-27 00:53:32 <amiller> coin mixers, is that the best term for htis
160 2011-02-27 00:53:46 <sipa> you shouldn't mix them
161 2011-02-27 00:53:51 <sipa> just randomly move them
162 2011-02-27 00:53:56 <sipa> very different thing
163 2011-02-27 00:53:56 <amiller> yeah
164 2011-02-27 00:54:04 <amiller> i would set up a node that traded randomly
165 2011-02-27 00:54:08 <amiller> without other nodes that are trading randomly
166 2011-02-27 00:54:09 <dirtyfilthy> everyone agrees that coin mixers would be a good idea, i think the issue is how to deal with rogue coin mixers
167 2011-02-27 00:54:32 <sipa> if all the coins i got are traceable - meaning everyone knows those coins are mine
168 2011-02-27 00:54:47 <sipa> there is no away i can launder them without external help
169 2011-02-27 00:55:00 <amiller> sipa: the crucial link is that the relay service takes in secret information, and then forgets it
170 2011-02-27 00:55:08 <amiller> specifically if you transfer it X, and you give it an address to exchange to
171 2011-02-27 00:55:12 <amiller> Y
172 2011-02-27 00:55:19 <sipa> yeah
173 2011-02-27 00:55:24 <amiller> then it does a transfer to Y, but it forgets that it was your address that wanted that transaction to occur
174 2011-02-27 00:55:38 <amiller> so yeah i agree
175 2011-02-27 00:55:41 <amiller> the only problem is
176 2011-02-27 00:55:44 <amiller> it's inherently profitable
177 2011-02-27 00:55:47 <amiller> to run a rogue bitcoin mixer
178 2011-02-27 00:55:51 <amiller> that doesn't put out as much as it puts in
179 2011-02-27 00:56:09 <amiller> but maybe the trick is to only deal with tiny transactions at a time
180 2011-02-27 00:56:09 <sipa> not necessary
181 2011-02-27 00:56:12 <amiller> maybe that's not profitable
182 2011-02-27 00:56:28 <amiller> i bet there are obstacles you could put up to doing that
183 2011-02-27 00:56:30 <sipa> just wait until you've got a nice amount
184 2011-02-27 00:56:41 <sipa> and go offline and disappear forever
185 2011-02-27 00:56:53 <amiller> sure
186 2011-02-27 00:57:10 <amiller> so, is there a way of doing that
187 2011-02-27 00:57:12 <pogden> you could minimize the risk by having it launder small amounts at a time
188 2011-02-27 00:57:19 <amiller> i think i have an other solution
189 2011-02-27 00:57:24 Mango-chan has joined
190 2011-02-27 00:57:25 <amiller> you could have trusted escrow accounts
191 2011-02-27 00:57:32 <amiller> the escrow accounts would have to be reliable that they would do an exchange
192 2011-02-27 00:57:56 <sipa> eventually you always have to trust someone
193 2011-02-27 00:57:58 <amiller> but they wouldn't have to be trusted to forget your identity and that you wnated a particular transaaction
194 2011-02-27 00:58:24 <amiller> ok so there are several actors, alice, bob, relay, and escrow
195 2011-02-27 00:58:26 <dirtyfilthy> if you split up your payment into very small amounts, then your loss would be limited to the percentage of bad nodes on the network
196 2011-02-27 00:58:35 <amiller> allice transfers Xbtc to the relay, and asks it to schedule a transaction to bob
197 2011-02-27 00:58:36 <dirtyfilthy> if you had a method of banning bad nodes, then you'd be sweet
198 2011-02-27 00:58:44 <amiller> the relay schedules several transactions for the day
199 2011-02-27 00:58:46 <amiller> with the escrow service
200 2011-02-27 00:59:07 <amiller> ok rather than alice transfering to the relay, she transfers to the escrow
201 2011-02-27 00:59:15 <amiller> but only tells the relay that she wants it to go to bob
202 2011-02-27 00:59:35 <amiller> the relay mixes up the destinations but only gives an aggregate set of requests to the escrow
203 2011-02-27 00:59:40 <amiller> something like thta
204 2011-02-27 01:00:11 <amiller> you would still have to have trust, but you would remove the incentive to have a bad node
205 2011-02-27 01:04:47 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
206 2011-02-27 01:06:23 <amiller> dirtyfilthy: the percentage might be significant, especially if it was profitable to run a bad node
207 2011-02-27 01:06:36 <amiller> dirtyfilthy: also banning a bad node doesn't keep a new one from popping up
208 2011-02-27 01:06:42 llama has joined
209 2011-02-27 01:07:12 <amiller> dirtyfilthy: you could stick to only nodes that were known to be trustworthy, but the more trusted they are the more profitable it is to go rogue and take the bitcoins
210 2011-02-27 01:09:27 johnyh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
211 2011-02-27 01:10:09 <dirtyfilthy> amiller: true, true
212 2011-02-27 01:10:45 theymos has joined
213 2011-02-27 01:11:08 <dirtyfilthy> require deposit to setup relay. keep transactions under that amount + reward relays a percentage
214 2011-02-27 01:11:47 <dirtyfilthy> in the end i guess you need to trust somebody
215 2011-02-27 01:12:39 <amiller> that's an interesting point though
216 2011-02-27 01:12:48 <amiller> you could easily set up an insurance thing
217 2011-02-27 01:12:49 <amiller> another problem is
218 2011-02-27 01:13:06 <amiller> how would you prove that the relay didn't do what it was asked
219 2011-02-27 01:13:18 <dirtyfilthy> yeah that is a good point
220 2011-02-27 01:13:30 <amiller> here's a related question that might lead to a good solution
221 2011-02-27 01:13:45 <amiller> is there a way to get a certificate that says that you transferred a certain value of bitcoins somewhere
222 2011-02-27 01:13:49 <amiller> but it doesn't say which one
223 2011-02-27 01:13:59 <amiller> you could have a big escrow service
224 2011-02-27 01:14:13 <amiller> alice would transfer X BTC to the service and obtain a certificate worth X btc
225 2011-02-27 01:14:37 <dirtyfilthy> ah yeah, which she would then redeem
226 2011-02-27 01:14:39 <amiller> alice would use a pseodonym and from another address, ask the escrow to transfer
227 2011-02-27 01:14:40 <theymos> Bitcoin-backed Open Transactions certificates could do that, though this is a centralized method.
228 2011-02-27 01:14:42 johnyh has joined
229 2011-02-27 01:15:13 <amiller> i think i'm ok if it's centralized, as long as you don't have to give it information you're afraid it will give up
230 2011-02-27 01:15:23 <amiller> so let me look that up
231 2011-02-27 01:15:40 <amiller> or explain it here if that's not too much trouble
232 2011-02-27 01:15:49 <dirtyfilthy> bitcoin bearer bonds
233 2011-02-27 01:16:28 <theymos> I don't know much about it. fellowtraveler's posts are all about Open Transactions in relation to Bitcoin: https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=846;sa=showPosts
234 2011-02-27 01:17:42 <amiller> is there a canonical term or a discussion for this question?
235 2011-02-27 01:17:52 <amiller> for which open transactions may be considered a proposed solution
236 2011-02-27 01:20:26 bk128 has joined
237 2011-02-27 01:22:25 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
238 2011-02-27 01:23:11 devon_hillard has joined
239 2011-02-27 01:24:39 devon_hillard_ has joined
240 2011-02-27 01:25:18 <amiller> it looks like no one has vouched for or reviewed fellowtravellers stuff
241 2011-02-27 01:27:24 <presence> you guys know of a decent case to cool a mining host?
242 2011-02-27 01:27:39 <presence> I dont care if it has PSU, I have that
243 2011-02-27 01:27:51 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
244 2011-02-27 01:28:03 <theymos> amiller: That's because his documentation sucks. But the principles behind ricardian contracts, triple-entry accounting, etc. has been well-covered in academia, I believe.
245 2011-02-27 01:28:59 <amiller> that sounds good, is there a good curated bibliography for this
246 2011-02-27 01:29:18 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
247 2011-02-27 01:30:03 <amiller> or even better a summary of those principles used to show the feasibility of anonymous transactions
248 2011-02-27 01:30:03 Akiraaaa has joined
249 2011-02-27 01:31:51 <theymos> I don't know any off-hand. There's some stuff here: http://iang.org/papers/ . Also search the Bitcoin forum.
250 2011-02-27 01:32:07 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
251 2011-02-27 01:32:32 devon_hillard_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
252 2011-02-27 01:33:14 <amiller> okay, thank you that's very helpful
253 2011-02-27 01:34:53 <amiller> i hope it's alright if i report back here anything interesting i find
254 2011-02-27 01:35:01 <dirtyfilthy> definitely
255 2011-02-27 01:37:06 Akiraaaa has quit (Quit: Leaving)
256 2011-02-27 01:37:46 benmanns has joined
257 2011-02-27 01:38:17 <benmanns> What's the best way to integrate bitcoin into a shop application?
258 2011-02-27 01:38:26 <theymos> Use MyBitcoin.
259 2011-02-27 01:39:19 [Tycho] has joined
260 2011-02-27 01:41:08 <jgarzik> bencoder: mybitcoin SCI
261 2011-02-27 01:41:14 <jgarzik> benmanns: ^^
262 2011-02-27 01:41:23 * jgarzik kicks xchat autocomplete
263 2011-02-27 01:41:48 [Tycho] has quit (Changing host)
264 2011-02-27 01:41:48 [Tycho] has joined
265 2011-02-27 01:43:02 <luke-jr> benmanns: shop app?
266 2011-02-27 01:43:37 Kiba has joined
267 2011-02-27 01:49:53 [Tycho] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
268 2011-02-27 01:49:56 <benmanns> luke-jr: a web store
269 2011-02-27 01:50:05 mmarker has joined
270 2011-02-27 01:50:15 [Tycho] has joined
271 2011-02-27 01:53:26 <luke-jr> benmanns: JSON-RPC should do fine for that
272 2011-02-27 01:53:55 <luke-jr> benmanns: for each checkout, generate a new address and tie it to the purchase
273 2011-02-27 01:54:18 <luke-jr> have a cronjob scan all the pending purchase addresses for confirmations, and when they reach 6, ship
274 2011-02-27 01:54:37 <luke-jr> (check the total amount sent to the address too!)
275 2011-02-27 01:58:15 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
276 2011-02-27 02:01:45 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
277 2011-02-27 02:03:29 <mmarker> I think software in general hates me. Still trying to get my android app, bitcoind, and google to have a nice conversation. Instead, it's like thanksgiving.
278 2011-02-27 02:05:59 endian7000 has quit (Quit: endian7000)
279 2011-02-27 02:08:52 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
280 2011-02-27 02:23:58 epicurus has joined
281 2011-02-27 02:28:31 <mmarker> damnit
282 2011-02-27 02:28:52 <Kiba> dammmnit!
283 2011-02-27 02:29:33 <mmarker> Forgot what package name I registered with google. So, therefor, no C2DM until they reactivate me.
284 2011-02-27 02:29:36 <mmarker> Bastards
285 2011-02-27 02:34:12 <Kiba> yeah! they're a bunch of bastard1
286 2011-02-27 02:37:08 bitcoiner has joined
287 2011-02-27 02:38:18 antivigilante has joined
288 2011-02-27 02:38:32 <antivigilante> i don't know what i'm doing
289 2011-02-27 02:38:57 mrb_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
290 2011-02-27 02:39:03 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
291 2011-02-27 02:39:12 <antivigilante> i'm making coinz how do i get an address?
292 2011-02-27 02:39:15 <mmarker> Well, it just means I can work on the crypto.
293 2011-02-27 02:39:41 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
294 2011-02-27 02:40:10 <[Tycho]> Pay-Per-Share mode deployed successfully :)
295 2011-02-27 02:41:44 <antivigilante> so how do I gets my address??
296 2011-02-27 02:42:32 <mmarker> Tycho: grats
297 2011-02-27 02:42:46 <mmarker> Now I need to kick my emulator in the face some more.
298 2011-02-27 02:43:12 redMBA has joined
299 2011-02-27 02:43:22 <[Tycho]> :)
300 2011-02-27 02:43:41 <mmarker> Tycho: I am determined to at least get my android app reading private/public keys
301 2011-02-27 02:44:16 redMBA has quit (Client Quit)
302 2011-02-27 02:44:29 <[Tycho]> What language do you use ?
303 2011-02-27 02:44:45 <mmarker> For android, programming it in Java, of course
304 2011-02-27 02:44:56 <mmarker> I do have a beta for the MonoDroid, but it's beta
305 2011-02-27 02:45:20 <[Tycho]> Someday i may try programming for android... If it's somehow possible with C :)
306 2011-02-27 02:45:26 <mmarker> You can
307 2011-02-27 02:45:34 <mmarker> you need to glue things with java here and there
308 2011-02-27 02:45:43 <mmarker> but the NDK does allow C code to be thrown together
309 2011-02-27 02:45:54 <mmarker> Dunno how easy it is to do a GUI in C
310 2011-02-27 02:46:15 <[Tycho]> Currently i don't have android phone, but may be n900 will be my next communicator. Not android, but useful too.
311 2011-02-27 02:47:14 <[Tycho]> It would be nice to implement payment app for smartphones.
312 2011-02-27 02:47:29 <mmarker> Whadda think I'm working on :D
313 2011-02-27 02:47:30 <antivigilante> how do I know my address - i'm using the console client
314 2011-02-27 02:48:04 <[Tycho]> mmarker, it's may be not a full-featured client too.
315 2011-02-27 02:48:25 <[Tycho]> antivigilante, have you tried reading RPC commands list ?
316 2011-02-27 02:48:48 <antivigilante> yeah confused as Fox
317 2011-02-27 02:48:59 <mmarker> Yea, my current idea is something to just throw together transactions, and get them out into the aether.
318 2011-02-27 02:49:39 <mmarker> and validating, and, of course using QR codes...and if anyone wants to lend me a Nexus S, the Near-Field stuff may be nifty.
319 2011-02-27 02:49:51 <mmarker> But first, I have to be able to assemble a transaction!
320 2011-02-27 02:51:28 trentzb has joined
321 2011-02-27 02:52:25 mrb_ has joined
322 2011-02-27 02:52:29 <luke-jr> antivigilante: what do you mean, you're making coinz?
323 2011-02-27 02:52:55 <luke-jr> mmarker: be sure it handles HTTP redirects correctly ;)
324 2011-02-27 02:53:09 <luke-jr> mmarker: that is, a http URI that redirects to a bitcoin URI
325 2011-02-27 02:55:09 <mmarker> luke-jr: Should, I believe I can register the app as a bitcoin URI handler
326 2011-02-27 02:55:43 <mmarker> so anything that WebKit runs across that it can't hack, get's popped into the right app
327 2011-02-27 02:56:15 benmanns has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
328 2011-02-27 02:56:39 <luke-jr> mmarker: right, but I mean the QR-Codes are probably going to be HTTP URIs that generate an address and redirect
329 2011-02-27 02:57:17 <luke-jr> mmarker: you're familiar with the bitcoin URI spec?
330 2011-02-27 02:57:20 <mmarker> Yea
331 2011-02-27 02:57:29 <mmarker> luke-jr: and Android will do the right thing
332 2011-02-27 02:57:34 <mmarker> you can register a handler
333 2011-02-27 02:57:43 <luke-jr> cool
334 2011-02-27 02:57:55 <mmarker> Ok, I think I got C2DM working
335 2011-02-27 02:58:25 <mmarker> Bwhahaha
336 2011-02-27 02:59:46 <mmarker> Google fed me a bad cert
337 2011-02-27 03:00:14 <brunner> how does the bitcoin client find its initial peers the first time it runs?
338 2011-02-27 03:01:14 <mmarker> brunner: IRC!
339 2011-02-27 03:01:23 <brunner> seriously?
340 2011-02-27 03:01:31 <mmarker> Logs on to an irc server, at a specific channel. does a /who
341 2011-02-27 03:01:39 <mmarker> Bam, list of IPs to start chatting up
342 2011-02-27 03:01:43 <mmarker> Seriously!
343 2011-02-27 03:01:43 <brunner> ...
344 2011-02-27 03:01:56 <mmarker> It's in the source code
345 2011-02-27 03:02:10 * brunner goes to read the source... to find the truth
346 2011-02-27 03:02:12 <mmarker> There's also a hardcoded list of nodes in case if IRC doesn't work
347 2011-02-27 03:02:32 <brunner> how much of a pain is it to compile bitcoin from source?
348 2011-02-27 03:02:35 <luke-jr> irc.lfnet.org #bitcoin
349 2011-02-27 03:02:39 <luke-jr> brunner: huge
350 2011-02-27 03:02:57 <brunner> really?
351 2011-02-27 03:03:05 <mmarker> wx-2.9 is bad
352 2011-02-27 03:03:16 <mmarker> boost could be worse if your distro doesn't have it around
353 2011-02-27 03:03:23 <mmarker> irc.cpp
354 2011-02-27 03:04:03 <luke-jr> wx * is bad
355 2011-02-27 03:04:16 <luke-jr> wx-bitcoin build system is worse
356 2011-02-27 03:04:17 <luke-jr> :p
357 2011-02-27 03:04:23 <mmarker> Heh
358 2011-02-27 03:04:30 <mmarker> It's all a hardcoded makefile
359 2011-02-27 03:04:33 <luke-jr> mmarker: boost is practically standard C++ nowadays, every distro has it
360 2011-02-27 03:04:40 <mmarker> it COULD be written in SCons :D
361 2011-02-27 03:04:50 <luke-jr> mmarker: it could be qmake
362 2011-02-27 03:04:57 <luke-jr> I actually use qmake myself
363 2011-02-27 03:05:03 <luke-jr> never could get the makefile BS to work
364 2011-02-27 03:05:05 <mmarker> ok, I got what I needed to get working, working
365 2011-02-27 03:05:16 <mmarker> Now to spend time with wifey
366 2011-02-27 03:05:23 <luke-jr> jgarzik promised autotools for next version
367 2011-02-27 03:05:26 <mmarker> and jarjar some bouncycastle
368 2011-02-27 03:07:22 <dirtyfilthy> mmarker just packaging up my bouncy castle for you now dude
369 2011-02-27 03:08:04 someone has joined
370 2011-02-27 03:08:31 someone is now known as Guest46506
371 2011-02-27 03:08:37 <Guest46506> trying to find an exchange that i can just use paypal straight up with... is there such a thing?
372 2011-02-27 03:08:40 <brunner> didn't someone make another bitcoin client?
373 2011-02-27 03:08:46 mmarker has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
374 2011-02-27 03:09:08 <brunner> Guest46506: I'll trade with you, using paypal
375 2011-02-27 03:09:41 <Guest46506> yeahh, no thanks
376 2011-02-27 03:10:28 <brunner> Guest46506: okay, whatever. you're the one with an unregistered nick.
377 2011-02-27 03:10:48 <Guest46506> just started bitcoin like 10 minutes ago
378 2011-02-27 03:10:50 Guest46506 is now known as Brent
379 2011-02-27 03:11:15 <Brent> not entirely sure how it all works yet
380 2011-02-27 03:11:25 Brent is now known as Brent000
381 2011-02-27 03:11:35 <brunner> Brent: well, you should be fine, as long as you're not in California.
382 2011-02-27 03:11:40 <Brent000> lol
383 2011-02-27 03:11:45 <Brent000> oh?
384 2011-02-27 03:11:50 <Brent000> and... if i was?
385 2011-02-27 03:11:57 <brunner> yeah. it's banned. they'll jail you.
386 2011-02-27 03:12:03 <Brent000> wow!
387 2011-02-27 03:12:09 <Brent000> god bless america lol
388 2011-02-27 03:12:22 <Brent000> that stupid
389 2011-02-27 03:12:27 <Brent000> im california
390 2011-02-27 03:12:40 <ArtForz> duh, bitcoin is known to the state of california to cause cancer. *ducks*
391 2011-02-27 03:12:57 <brunner> Brent000: well, you should still be fine as long as you're nowhere near Fresno
392 2011-02-27 03:13:29 <Brent000> ...
393 2011-02-27 03:13:34 <Brent000> why fresno?
394 2011-02-27 03:13:37 <ArtForz> rofl
395 2011-02-27 03:13:52 <brunner> Brent000: local government crackdowns
396 2011-02-27 03:14:02 dissipate has joined
397 2011-02-27 03:14:10 <Brent000> wow
398 2011-02-27 03:14:22 <brunner> and Comcast has been known to terminate accounts of Bitcoin users
399 2011-02-27 03:14:27 <brunner> so make sure you're using DSL
400 2011-02-27 03:14:36 <dissipate> brunner: really?
401 2011-02-27 03:14:40 <brunner> No.
402 2011-02-27 03:14:42 <ArtForz> or just google geoip ;)
403 2011-02-27 03:14:43 <Brent000> brunner took my ip
404 2011-02-27 03:14:46 <Brent000> tracked it to fresno
405 2011-02-27 03:14:48 <Brent000> there you go lol
406 2011-02-27 03:15:02 <Brent000> he should of created a visual basic gui to track my ip <dun dun dun>
407 2011-02-27 03:15:03 <Brent000> lol
408 2011-02-27 03:15:30 <brunner> Brent000: there's an exchanger that uses paypal -- can't remember the name -- but it's limited to $40 or so
409 2011-02-27 03:15:36 <brunner> which is useless to me
410 2011-02-27 03:15:58 <Brent000> yeah i found that one
411 2011-02-27 03:16:00 <brunner> I've been trading OTC, but I just opened up a bank account to make using Mt Gox easier
412 2011-02-27 03:16:02 <Brent000> 40 bucks + 2 bucks per transaction
413 2011-02-27 03:16:07 <dissipate> i'm looking to exchange up to 3 ounces of pure gold for BTC
414 2011-02-27 03:16:07 <Brent000> i wanted to spend more than that
415 2011-02-27 03:16:10 <brunner> yeah, ridiculous
416 2011-02-27 03:16:24 <brunner> dissipate: I'll do that
417 2011-02-27 03:16:54 <Brent000> brunner yolu have a website of some sort? or some kind of method where you can insure delivery?
418 2011-02-27 03:17:12 <brunner> Brent000: there is a ratings system. join #bitcoin-otc
419 2011-02-27 03:17:20 lolcat has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
420 2011-02-27 03:17:46 Brent000 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
421 2011-02-27 03:18:09 <dissipate> brunner: i'm looking for someone in my city (san diego) to trade with is the problem
422 2011-02-27 03:18:09 Brent0001 has joined
423 2011-02-27 03:18:22 <brunner> dissipate: I have employees in LA
424 2011-02-27 03:18:41 <dissipate> brunner: oh cool
425 2011-02-27 03:19:35 <brunner> dissipate: if you deliver to them, I would consider it a delivery to me
426 2011-02-27 03:20:12 <dissipate> brunner: would i be able to meet them in person to do the exchange?
427 2011-02-27 03:20:23 <brunner> Brent0001: I have a personal website, and several business websites, but nothing bitcoin-related
428 2011-02-27 03:20:26 <brunner> dissipate: yes.
429 2011-02-27 03:20:53 <brunner> dissipate: assuming you're not going to harm my programmers
430 2011-02-27 03:21:03 <brunner> I need them.
431 2011-02-27 03:21:05 <dissipate> brunner: sweet. i go up to l.a. a lot to visit my sister
432 2011-02-27 03:21:12 <brunner> dissipate: well then let me know
433 2011-02-27 03:21:34 <Brent0001> brunner how do i check your reputation again?
434 2011-02-27 03:21:57 <dissipate> brunner: i'm a programmer myself and i don't hurt my own kind. :D
435 2011-02-27 03:21:59 <Brent0001> you buy, sell, or both?
436 2011-02-27 03:22:06 <dissipate> brunner: what's your email?
437 2011-02-27 03:22:12 <brunner> dissipate: I just msg'd it to you
438 2011-02-27 03:22:42 <dissipate> brunner: oh sorry, i'm in the web client, didn't see it. cool.
439 2011-02-27 03:22:50 <brunner> no problem
440 2011-02-27 03:25:36 <comboy> slush: ?
441 2011-02-27 03:28:40 <comboy> it turns out it's still possible to cheat with current algorithm, but very hard and marginally porfitable (+3%)
442 2011-02-27 03:29:47 TripleBla has joined
443 2011-02-27 03:30:03 <TripleBla> Hello! Im new to bit coin :)!
444 2011-02-27 03:30:09 <TripleBla> trying to learn the ropes :P
445 2011-02-27 03:30:52 <Brent0001> me too
446 2011-02-27 03:32:55 dissipate has quit (Quit: Page closed)
447 2011-02-27 03:35:56 <sgornick> MT`AwAy: ,,(bc,wiki) problems ...
448 2011-02-27 03:35:56 <gribble> https://bitcoin.it/ | Feb 21, 2011 ... Sourced from Wikipedia. Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. It is also the name of the open source software ...
449 2011-02-27 03:36:16 johnyh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
450 2011-02-27 03:36:55 <MT`AwAy> sgornick: I know
451 2011-02-27 03:37:57 <MT`AwAy> still waiting for freaking ips on new servers, got the issue escalated to its highest and not paying until I got the ips, but in the meantime I still have to use the current serv
452 2011-02-27 03:38:18 <MT`AwAy> should be better now
453 2011-02-27 03:40:59 <luke-jr> O.o
454 2011-02-27 03:41:03 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: I have plenty of IPs :D
455 2011-02-27 03:41:09 trentzb has left ()
456 2011-02-27 03:41:12 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
457 2011-02-27 03:41:23 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: I have plenty of ips too, just not announced in the right datacenter
458 2011-02-27 03:41:44 <luke-jr> :p
459 2011-02-27 03:41:45 <MT`AwAy> I'm moving stuff away from softlayer as their network sucks
460 2011-02-27 03:41:56 u2time has joined
461 2011-02-27 03:41:58 <luke-jr> should get a VPS from me :D
462 2011-02-27 03:42:14 echelon has joined
463 2011-02-27 03:42:17 <MT`AwAy> you do VPS with 32GB ram ?
464 2011-02-27 03:42:19 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: btw, you should probably be involved in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
465 2011-02-27 03:42:23 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: erm, no. :p
466 2011-02-27 03:42:59 <MT`AwAy> I got two servers with 32GB ram each, 2x2TB hdd, 2x64GB SSD hdd and dual xeon quad
467 2011-02-27 03:43:03 <MT`AwAy> but no ips on those
468 2011-02-27 03:43:03 <MT`AwAy> :D
469 2011-02-27 03:43:18 <u2time> MT'Away you want to do a vpn? I can get you IP's
470 2011-02-27 03:43:19 <MT`AwAy> (I advised the uplink provider I wouldn't pay until I had ips)
471 2011-02-27 03:43:24 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
472 2011-02-27 03:43:37 johnyh has joined
473 2011-02-27 03:43:48 <phantomcircuit> MT`AwAy, you got sql servers installed with logs on the ssds?
474 2011-02-27 03:43:51 <MT`AwAy> u2time: I'll eventually get my ips, in the meantime I just reduce load on the current serv and monitor it closely
475 2011-02-27 03:43:52 <phantomcircuit> it makes a HUGE difference
476 2011-02-27 03:44:22 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: you're aware there are no more IPs? :P
477 2011-02-27 03:44:22 <u2time> MT'away, will your uplink providers let you do bgp and advertise a block? i have a couple /24's not being used
478 2011-02-27 03:44:30 <MT`AwAy> phantomcircuit: I'm still running experimentation with the SSD disks, but there are many ways to get performance boost from those little gems :p
479 2011-02-27 03:44:33 molecular has joined
480 2011-02-27 03:44:59 <TripleBla> So what kind of comfirmation do i get that im using my CPU to earn Bitcoin :)??
481 2011-02-27 03:45:07 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
482 2011-02-27 03:45:17 <phantomcircuit> TripleBla, if you're using cpu you're likely wasting your time
483 2011-02-27 03:45:17 <luke-jr> TripleBla: you're not.
484 2011-02-27 03:45:19 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: ARIN still have ips :p
485 2011-02-27 03:45:25 <MT`AwAy> u2time: they wouldn't let me use just any ASN, and anyway that's too much trouble for now
486 2011-02-27 03:45:25 <luke-jr> MT`AwAy: not many
487 2011-02-27 03:45:36 <MT`AwAy> luke-jr: more than what I need :p
488 2011-02-27 03:45:41 <TripleBla> BAH, what am I to do?? And what exactly is the cpu cycling used for solving??
489 2011-02-27 03:45:53 <luke-jr> TripleBla: it's bruteforcing a puzzle.
490 2011-02-27 03:46:04 <u2time> ASN costs only like $300 or so
491 2011-02-27 03:46:13 <luke-jr> TripleBla: it's also costing you more in electricity than it will ever find in bitcoins
492 2011-02-27 03:46:28 <u2time> cpu mining is about like playing loto
493 2011-02-27 03:46:39 <TripleBla> so can i work on the puzzle mathematically by hand?
494 2011-02-27 03:46:53 <luke-jr> TripleBla: a human might find a block in a couple of millenia.
495 2011-02-27 03:46:55 <MT`AwAy> anyway the thing is I'm migrating servers doing web hosting, with lots of ssl certificates, and most customers don't want to throw away people using MSIE+WinXP yet
496 2011-02-27 03:47:01 <MT`AwAy> if I could do that, I wouldn't need that many ips
497 2011-02-27 03:47:10 <luke-jr> TripleBla: there is no way to solve the puzzle other than bruteforcing.
498 2011-02-27 03:47:18 <TripleBla> im getting abuot 100 blocks a second, decent? :P
499 2011-02-27 03:47:25 <luke-jr> TripleBla: no, you're not.
500 2011-02-27 03:47:31 <TripleBla> -_-?
501 2011-02-27 03:47:49 <TripleBla> not 100 bitcoin, 100 blocks and counting ++
502 2011-02-27 03:47:49 <luke-jr> even if you were the only person mining, it would only be 1 every 10 minutes on average
503 2011-02-27 03:47:51 <phantomcircuit> TripleBla, where are you getting this # from?
504 2011-02-27 03:47:53 <TripleBla> im at like 13,000
505 2011-02-27 03:48:02 <luke-jr> TripleBla: each block is worth 50 BTC
506 2011-02-27 03:48:10 <luke-jr> TripleBla: you mean downloading the existing blocks I think
507 2011-02-27 03:48:10 <antivigilante> I have the bitcoind running on my machine how do I get the address
508 2011-02-27 03:48:16 <luke-jr> that doesn't get you anything
509 2011-02-27 03:48:18 <TripleBla> maybe my PC is counting the existing ones -_-
510 2011-02-27 03:48:23 <luke-jr> antivigilante: use a client
511 2011-02-27 03:48:46 <luke-jr> TripleBla: even the best CPUs only perform maybe 7 MH/s
512 2011-02-27 03:48:47 <MT`AwAy> anyway I'm going to have more time available now, finally passed the big japanese ecommerce fair I had to do end of last week, and got quite a few contacts from there
513 2011-02-27 03:48:50 <antivigilante> luke-jr i'm confused i'm on debian
514 2011-02-27 03:48:50 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 7000
515 2011-02-27 03:48:51 <[Noodles]> TripleBla: it's just downloading the blockchain
516 2011-02-27 03:48:52 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 7000 Khps, given current difficulty of 36459.88692508 , is 36 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 2 minutes, and 54 seconds
517 2011-02-27 03:49:06 <luke-jr> TripleBla: at that rate, they will find a block (50 BTC) in 36 weeks.
518 2011-02-27 03:49:13 <luke-jr> TripleBla: but that goes up every 2 weeks
519 2011-02-27 03:49:36 <luke-jr> antivigilante: Debian doesn't have any clients packaged yet
520 2011-02-27 03:49:42 <TripleBla> luke-jr: what is this 7 MH/S, and what puzle is my machine going to be working on, and the point of it lol
521 2011-02-27 03:49:55 <luke-jr> antivigilante: download http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/commits/tonal#.tgz and run that
522 2011-02-27 03:50:16 <luke-jr> TripleBla: the point of the puzzle is to be difficult to solve, and take 10 minutes on average
523 2011-02-27 03:50:40 <luke-jr> 7 Mega-Hashes per Second is how many times the fastest CPU can bruteforce it
524 2011-02-27 03:50:50 <luke-jr> 7 million times every second
525 2011-02-27 03:50:52 <[Noodles]> the fastest?
526 2011-02-27 03:51:14 <[Noodles]> even my X3 does 7.6Mhash and it's not that fast
527 2011-02-27 03:51:20 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: wtf?
528 2011-02-27 03:51:36 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: I have one of the new Sandy Bridge CPUs and it only does 4.5 MH/s -.-
529 2011-02-27 03:52:19 <[Noodles]> phenomII X3 720, 2600+khash per core
530 2011-02-27 03:52:32 <[Noodles]> at stock 2.8GHz
531 2011-02-27 03:52:44 <phantomcircuit> [Noodles], that's 2.6 MH/s
532 2011-02-27 03:52:46 <luke-jr> I guess Intel was a mistake.
533 2011-02-27 03:52:51 <[Noodles]> per core
534 2011-02-27 03:52:54 <[Noodles]> x3
535 2011-02-27 03:53:22 <phantomcircuit> oh
536 2011-02-27 03:53:24 <phantomcircuit> meh
537 2011-02-27 03:53:38 <phantomcircuit> either way you're still orders of magnitude away from profitable
538 2011-02-27 03:53:43 <luke-jr> XD
539 2011-02-27 03:53:44 mtgox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
540 2011-02-27 03:53:48 <[Noodles]> so an X6 should get 15M++ easily
541 2011-02-27 03:53:51 <phantomcircuit> well depending on price of electricity you might be hovering on the edge
542 2011-02-27 03:54:06 <[Noodles]> sure, it's still NOT profitable
543 2011-02-27 03:54:15 <[Noodles]> that's why i only run miners on GPUs
544 2011-02-27 03:54:36 <luke-jr> so why do people still buy Intel if AMD kills them?
545 2011-02-27 03:55:02 <phantomcircuit> intel destroys amd in benchmarks...
546 2011-02-27 03:55:06 <phantomcircuit> which are likely bs
547 2011-02-27 03:56:14 malfy has joined
548 2011-02-27 03:58:46 <TripleBla> so..
549 2011-02-27 03:58:53 <TripleBla> average price of a bitcoin : USD
550 2011-02-27 03:59:01 <TripleBla> please, if someone could help on that lol =)
551 2011-02-27 03:59:03 <luke-jr> ;;bc,mtgox
552 2011-02-27 03:59:04 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.9645,"low":0.9111,"vol":4534,"buy":0.9331,"sell":0.957,"last":0.958}}
553 2011-02-27 03:59:09 <[Noodles]> average?
554 2011-02-27 03:59:17 <[Noodles]> on what timeframe
555 2011-02-27 03:59:36 <luke-jr> TripleBla: I'll sell ya 100 BTC for $125 ;)
556 2011-02-27 03:59:44 <TripleBla> ...
557 2011-02-27 03:59:50 <TripleBla> on that premise.
558 2011-02-27 03:59:57 <TripleBla> you understand or appreciate the USD
559 2011-02-27 04:00:04 <TripleBla> what if im on the other end of the stick
560 2011-02-27 04:00:28 <phantomcircuit> TripleBla, wat?
561 2011-02-27 04:00:36 <luke-jr> I'll buy your 100 BTC for $75 <.<
562 2011-02-27 04:00:56 <TripleBla> phantomcircuit: wut wut
563 2011-02-27 04:02:00 <TripleBla> am I trolling if I ask for a a 1 bitcoin deposit to start my collection? I'll Screenshot my empty balance atm :)? lol
564 2011-02-27 04:02:53 <luke-jr> TripleBla: try the Faucet
565 2011-02-27 04:03:07 <TripleBla> i did today... crash :D
566 2011-02-27 04:03:12 <luke-jr> TripleBla: I'll send you 10 TBC, but not 1 BTC :P
567 2011-02-27 04:03:18 <Keefe> or mail me a $1 bill and i'll give you 1 bitcoin
568 2011-02-27 04:03:53 <TripleBla> wait, wtf is a TBC, and a BTC?
569 2011-02-27 04:04:15 <luke-jr> TripleBla: BTC is the majority use decimal representation :p
570 2011-02-27 04:04:25 <luke-jr> and probably the only one you care about unless you love to learn new things
571 2011-02-27 04:04:35 <TripleBla> i love teh learnz
572 2011-02-27 04:04:50 <luke-jr> TBC is the tonal representation, with a much smaller unit size
573 2011-02-27 04:05:14 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
574 2011-02-27 04:05:27 <luke-jr> actually https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units might be a better glimpse
575 2011-02-27 04:05:52 <Keefe> or you can learn this one as well: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Radial_BitCoin
576 2011-02-27 04:06:01 * Keefe ducks
577 2011-02-27 04:06:07 <luke-jr> Keefe: that one is a parody, and irrational
578 2011-02-27 04:06:11 <TripleBla> im sensing this has something to do with the amount of currency in circulation/??
579 2011-02-27 04:06:17 <luke-jr> TripleBla: no?
580 2011-02-27 04:06:26 <TripleBla> okay.
581 2011-02-27 04:06:32 <TripleBla> synopsis plz :D?
582 2011-02-27 04:06:41 <luke-jr> TripleBla: if you're confused, just stick to BTC :P
583 2011-02-27 04:06:53 <Keefe> tonal really has nothing to do with bitcoin
584 2011-02-27 04:07:10 <Keefe> luke-jr just likes to use an unconventional number system
585 2011-02-27 04:07:15 <luke-jr> âº
586 2011-02-27 04:07:31 <luke-jr> I also prefer to send a smaller amount of money to newbie :p
587 2011-02-27 04:07:40 <Keefe> just send him 0.1 BTC
588 2011-02-27 04:07:46 <luke-jr> that's more than 10 TBC
589 2011-02-27 04:08:00 <Keefe> 0.01 BTC then
590 2011-02-27 04:08:14 <Keefe> no need to make bitcoin seem more complicated
591 2011-02-27 04:08:18 <luke-jr> he hasn't posted an address
592 2011-02-27 04:08:36 <TripleBla> so Bitcoin is the first, global, universal currency, based through internet trading and availability - eh?
593 2011-02-27 04:09:07 <luke-jr> TripleBla: depends on how those commas parse :P
594 2011-02-27 04:09:24 <luke-jr> food is the first global universal currency. but not based through internet.
595 2011-02-27 04:09:28 <TripleBla> lol.
596 2011-02-27 04:09:29 <TripleBla> shaddap
597 2011-02-27 04:09:44 <TripleBla> foods a barter tool, not a currency
598 2011-02-27 04:10:06 <TripleBla> unless you equivelate 1 load of bread = 10 carrots, 5 apples, 1 jar of [x], etc
599 2011-02-27 04:10:14 <luke-jr> TripleBla: same for bitcoin then
600 2011-02-27 04:10:24 <TripleBla> ahh yaa.
601 2011-02-27 04:10:29 <TripleBla> currency is misused on my part than
602 2011-02-27 04:10:32 <Kiba> food are barter
603 2011-02-27 04:10:34 <TripleBla> "system of economics"
604 2011-02-27 04:10:49 <Kiba> note: luke-jr is a nutcase
605 2011-02-27 04:12:08 <luke-jr> Kiba: *cough*
606 2011-02-27 04:12:39 <ArtForz> note: luke-jr is a nutcase with a cough
607 2011-02-27 04:12:46 Luke-Jr[Q] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
608 2011-02-27 04:14:13 <TripleBla> so who's gonna donate '1' bit of coin to me lol
609 2011-02-27 04:15:19 <luke-jr> TripleBla: impractical
610 2011-02-27 04:15:34 <TripleBla> =(
611 2011-02-27 04:15:37 <luke-jr> to send 0.00000001 BTC, you'd need to pay a 0.01 BTC fee
612 2011-02-27 04:15:42 <TripleBla> lol :D!
613 2011-02-27 04:15:59 <luke-jr> also, your client has a bug that will just throw that 0.00000001 BTC away
614 2011-02-27 04:16:03 <TripleBla> oh so that's the processing fee i was seeing in the client? Where does the fee go to? the founders? lol
615 2011-02-27 04:16:14 <luke-jr> to the miner who generates the block with the tx
616 2011-02-27 04:16:17 <Keefe> no, whoever finds the next block
617 2011-02-27 04:16:22 <Keefe> yep
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619 2011-02-27 04:17:10 <TripleBla> haha thats wicked
620 2011-02-27 04:17:42 <TripleBla> so what good is bitcoin if the internet goes out :D
621 2011-02-27 04:17:55 <TripleBla> zomga, internet killswitch111
622 2011-02-27 04:17:55 <u2time> man, I can just imagine it. Bitcoin panhandlers. Bitcoin beggers. On a whole new spam level.
623 2011-02-27 04:18:41 <luke-jr> TripleBla: globally?
624 2011-02-27 04:18:54 <TripleBla> pft.
625 2011-02-27 04:19:23 <TripleBla> I remember checking the availiability of Bitcoin recipients in the market (about a year ago) and checking the acceptance in the market now (10 minutes ago) .. and the list has grown exponentially
626 2011-02-27 04:21:25 <TripleBla> so where are the 4.7 million bit coins that have not been issued??
627 2011-02-27 04:23:24 <luke-jr> 15.5 you mean
628 2011-02-27 04:23:29 <luke-jr> they're being issued each block
629 2011-02-27 04:23:35 <luke-jr> goes to the miner, like fees
630 2011-02-27 04:31:11 <TripleBla> wait, 15.5 million bitcoins waiting to be issued??
631 2011-02-27 04:31:19 <TripleBla> damn this money brings out the worst, and best in people.
632 2011-02-27 04:32:52 <gavinandresen> antivigilante: RE: how do you get a receiving address from bitcoind-- after you run bitcoind once, run it again as: bitcoind getnewaddress
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663 2011-02-27 06:33:19 <RBecker> ;;bc,blocks
664 2011-02-27 06:33:20 <gribble> 110832
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697 2011-02-27 07:25:59 <knotwork> I have just confirmed by trying it again that cpu mining on my old server triggers bios heat detectors to shut down the machine
698 2011-02-27 07:26:08 <knotwork> even using nice
699 2011-02-27 07:26:27 <theymos> Can you limit the number of cores?
700 2011-02-27 07:26:31 <knotwork> only took an hour or to to do it
701 2011-02-27 07:26:35 Diablo-D3 has joined
702 2011-02-27 07:26:55 <knotwork> cores hahahah not sure it even has cores, its a 686 clone did they have cores?
703 2011-02-27 07:27:23 <knotwork> no wait maybe its a pentium II clone, the II means some early version of cores maybe?
704 2011-02-27 07:28:26 <theymos> I doubt it.
705 2011-02-27 07:28:41 <knotwork> me too :)
706 2011-02-27 07:28:48 <theymos> You could underclock it.
707 2011-02-27 07:29:17 <knotwork> nah my desktop box cpu mines nicely enough for current purpose
708 2011-02-27 07:29:36 <lfm> knotwork: is the fan still running? is the heatsink clean?
709 2011-02-27 07:29:44 <[Tycho]> May be it's AMD ?
710 2011-02-27 07:30:08 <knotwork> strangely the fan didnt do the periodic going into overdrive behavior I have often observed
711 2011-02-27 07:30:21 hundfred has joined
712 2011-02-27 07:30:40 <knotwork> it might not be temerature really it might be software glitch, last few fedoras I typically would get the shutdown
713 2011-02-27 07:30:47 <lfm> knotwork: some old fans slow down a lot before they quit
714 2011-02-27 07:30:53 <knotwork> during the upgrade process. lot of fun that
715 2011-02-27 07:31:29 <knotwork> once the upgrade was complete the frequent shutdowns ceased
716 2011-02-27 07:31:59 <knotwork> but this apparent correlation with mining does seem likely to actually be related to actual heat not just
717 2011-02-27 07:32:12 <knotwork> some kind of misconfiguration of bos or software glitch
718 2011-02-27 07:32:53 <lfm> try vacuuming out the heatsink, make sure all the fans are still running correctly. A dead case fane might cause overheating too
719 2011-02-27 07:34:27 <lfm> see if lm_sensors works to minitor fans and temps
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722 2011-02-27 07:35:50 <knotwork> thanks when it has had time to cool off I'll yum for lm_sensors once rebooted
723 2011-02-27 07:37:17 <lfm> knotwork: seems like you're not keen to get inside and clean it out?
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725 2011-02-27 07:38:31 <knotwork> awkward to get inside even though case is open, as side toward me is the bottom side e.g. mostly not reachable into
726 2011-02-27 07:39:07 <knotwork> and poised other side of it is desltop box's case and various stuff is now piled on cases including delicate rj40
727 2011-02-27 07:39:19 <knotwork> ethernet plugs that lost the little clip that keeps them secure etc
728 2011-02-27 07:39:40 <knotwork> so once I start moving stuff I can expect my connection will go bad and on like that
729 2011-02-27 07:39:43 <lfm> eeewww, sounds like a rats nest
730 2011-02-27 07:39:49 <knotwork> so yeah I will get to it but now is not the time
731 2011-02-27 07:40:04 <knotwork> it works fine weeks at a stretch if it doesnt cpu mine
732 2011-02-27 07:40:07 <lfm> check that there are no rats nesting in it too
733 2011-02-27 07:40:20 <knotwork> no rats here only mice
734 2011-02-27 07:40:29 <lfm> hehe ok
735 2011-02-27 07:41:10 <knotwork> I mean really, actual living organic ones, I see them from time to time but never yet a living rat
736 2011-02-27 07:41:25 <knotwork> (dead one appeared in toilet bowl somehow once upon a time years ago tho)
737 2011-02-27 07:42:11 <knotwork> but noetheless as igloos go its not such a bad place :)
738 2011-02-27 07:42:17 RazielZ has joined
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740 2011-02-27 07:48:58 <lfm> sometime mice get into the habit of knawing on the insulation for wires, good luck
741 2011-02-27 07:50:36 <Diablo-D3> lfm: dude, who doesnt
742 2011-02-27 07:50:40 <Diablo-D3> om nom nom plastic
743 2011-02-27 07:50:46 <Diablo-D3> the red ones taste especially good
744 2011-02-27 07:51:08 <ArtForz> in my experience rats are WAY worse for that
745 2011-02-27 07:51:22 * Diablo-D3 actually has colored ethernet, lulz
746 2011-02-27 07:52:19 molecular has joined
747 2011-02-27 07:52:59 <ArtForz> errr... who doesn't?
748 2011-02-27 07:53:55 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, a lot of people have white/grey/whatever
749 2011-02-27 07:54:19 <Diablo-D3> I have three things plugged into my switch, but I like being able to look at it and know whats what
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751 2011-02-27 07:54:25 <ArtForz> I mainly have pink, neon green and neon yellow
752 2011-02-27 07:55:02 <Diablo-D3> grey -> dsl->router, red -> switch->router, green -> laptop->switch, blue -> workstation->switch
753 2011-02-27 07:55:04 <ArtForz> those colors have a WAY lower tendency to walk away
754 2011-02-27 07:56:54 <Diablo-D3> dude, if my cables walk away then theres something wrong
755 2011-02-27 07:58:06 <lfm> the blue covered wires repel mice and rats
756 2011-02-27 07:58:23 <Diablo-D3> I have cats.
757 2011-02-27 07:58:30 <Diablo-D3> I think I have the mouse problem covered
758 2011-02-27 07:58:46 <ArtForz> well, not if they're sitting in your office/storage room at work
759 2011-02-27 07:59:05 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: locked cabinets.
760 2011-02-27 07:59:27 <ArtForz> pff
761 2011-02-27 07:59:38 <ArtForz> easier to order cables in godawful colors
762 2011-02-27 08:00:44 <Diablo-D3> either that, or use the PoE variant that does 10k volts.
763 2011-02-27 08:01:00 <ArtForz> not to mention they're cheaper *and* you can spin it as a workplace safety measure
764 2011-02-27 08:04:08 Bth8 has joined
765 2011-02-27 08:04:31 <Diablo-D3> "if its hot pink, dont touch it" "what if its neon green?" "dont touch it." "yellow?" "dont touch it." "what colors CAN we touch?" "none of them."
766 2011-02-27 08:04:57 <ArtForz> lol
767 2011-02-27 08:04:59 <ArtForz> yep
768 2011-02-27 08:06:53 <cosurgi> ArtForz: someone very powerful has just joined the network, is that you?
769 2011-02-27 08:07:06 <cosurgi> he joined about 15 hours ago
770 2011-02-27 08:07:23 <Diablo-D3> art joined about 9 months ago.
771 2011-02-27 08:07:34 <Diablo-D3> dohohohoho
772 2011-02-27 08:08:04 <ArtForz> nope, not me
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775 2011-02-27 08:11:16 <cosurgi> the same happened when this difficulty started, maybe he decided to hold on a while and increase next difficulty only a little, this would mean that next difficulty will skyrocket
776 2011-02-27 08:11:29 <ArtForz> I kinda doubt it
777 2011-02-27 08:11:35 <cosurgi> I mean next-next
778 2011-02-27 08:11:43 <cosurgi> ok, we will see :)
779 2011-02-27 08:11:45 <ArtForz> it's economically stupid
780 2011-02-27 08:12:14 <ArtForz> throwing more hashpower at it *now* is always more profitable than waiting for the next difficulty
781 2011-02-27 08:13:26 <phantomcircuit> unless you can manipulate the difficulty downwards
782 2011-02-27 08:14:02 <cosurgi> hmm true , he could disconnect later wait and reconnect
783 2011-02-27 08:14:07 <ArtForz> which you generally can't unless you're well >30% of total network
784 2011-02-27 08:14:17 <cosurgi> if electricity is expensive for him it could make sense
785 2011-02-27 08:14:20 <ArtForz> otherwise you're just handing block to other miners
786 2011-02-27 08:14:24 <cosurgi> maybe he is
787 2011-02-27 08:14:29 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, which you can do if you're particularly evil
788 2011-02-27 08:14:37 <cosurgi> look at what happened within 15h
789 2011-02-27 08:15:26 <ArtForz> note that 15h is way too short to come to any conclusion
790 2011-02-27 08:15:51 <phantomcircuit> 15h?
791 2011-02-27 08:16:48 <lfm> Average interval last 144 blocks: 4.32 min
792 2011-02-27 08:17:42 <ArtForz> and block 109871-110015 we had average 307 s/block
793 2011-02-27 08:18:01 <ArtForz> yet in the 144 block periods before/after that it was > 420s/block ...
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795 2011-02-27 08:22:33 <ArtForz> my current estimate puts network at ~480Ghps = about 326s/block
796 2011-02-27 08:26:47 <ArtForz> = variance over 144-block periods is still way too big to say anything
797 2011-02-27 08:27:06 <ArtForz> might be someone adding 100ghps, might be just a lucky run
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804 2011-02-27 08:53:00 <molecular> ;;bc,stats
805 2011-02-27 08:53:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110864 | Current Difficulty: 36459.88692508 | Next Difficulty At Block: 110879 | Next Difficulty In: 15 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 hour, 26 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 55406.64843387
806 2011-02-27 09:02:27 <molecular> my initial calculations in mid-january projected the difficulty to reach 55000 on April 4th.
807 2011-02-27 09:02:37 <molecular> damn was I wrong
808 2011-02-27 09:03:01 <lfm> its still goin up?
809 2011-02-27 09:03:07 <molecular> 50% this time ;)
810 2011-02-27 09:03:32 <molecular> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png <- it's crazy
811 2011-02-27 09:04:47 <molecular> I also projected the exchange rate to be at 0.35 USD/BTC at that point.
812 2011-02-27 09:04:50 <molecular> damn was I wrong
813 2011-02-27 09:05:32 <lfm> ya you said that
814 2011-02-27 09:06:06 <molecular> yes, but targeting a different assertion
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817 2011-02-27 09:12:58 <Ratchet> hi. is it possible to run more than one bitcoind instance behind a nat/firewall? maybe if i don't forward 8333 to any of the machines?
818 2011-02-27 09:13:38 <theymos> The non-forwarded one will work without any extra work.
819 2011-02-27 09:14:25 <Ratchet> oh, ok. thanks
820 2011-02-27 09:15:19 <lfm> Ratchet: you can still forward to one
821 2011-02-27 09:16:23 <Ratchet> ok :-)
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823 2011-02-27 09:40:00 <wumpus> yeah you can forward 8333 to one of the machines, forwarding any other port for bitcoin has no use as it assumes a fixed port number (at least, last time I checked)
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827 2011-02-27 10:11:54 <molecular> ;;bc,diff
828 2011-02-27 10:11:55 <gribble> 55590.23763914
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838 2011-02-27 10:32:44 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
839 2011-02-27 10:32:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110882 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 2013 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 18 hours, 4 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 222358.07250747
840 2011-02-27 10:36:26 <mmagic> ;;calc [bc,blocks]+1
841 2011-02-27 10:36:28 <gribble> 110,882 + 1 = 110,883
842 2011-02-27 10:36:41 <mmagic> ;;calc [bc,blocks]%2018
843 2011-02-27 10:36:42 <gribble> ...
844 2011-02-27 10:36:51 <mmagic> ;;calc [bc,blocks] % 2018
845 2011-02-27 10:36:52 <gribble> 110,882 mod 2,018 = 1,910
846 2011-02-27 10:37:18 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc [bc,blocks] % [bc,blocks]
847 2011-02-27 10:37:19 <gribble> 110,882 mod 110,882 = 0
848 2011-02-27 10:37:22 <phantomcircuit> NEAT
849 2011-02-27 10:37:27 <mmagic> even for initial estimate, that estimate is pretty high and scary
850 2011-02-27 10:38:02 noagendamarket has joined
851 2011-02-27 10:38:09 <phantomcircuit> the total speed of the miners is growing damned fast
852 2011-02-27 10:40:20 <mmagic> Bid 0.92 9463.02 <-- hahaha!
853 2011-02-27 10:41:40 <theymos> Looking at blocks 110736-110880 and using the average target of these blocks, I calculated 722 ghash/s.
854 2011-02-27 10:41:56 <mmagic> profit shrinks to the point where new mining equipment will be out of the reach of hobbiests.
855 2011-02-27 10:42:39 <ArtForzZz> theymos: huh?
856 2011-02-27 10:42:48 <ArtForzZz> over the exact same block range I get... 607961
857 2011-02-27 10:42:52 <ArtForzZz> Mhps, that is
858 2011-02-27 10:43:24 <theymos> ArtForzZz: That's the result on http://blockexplorer.com/q/nethash . I just rewrote my algorithm to use average targets, so it's very possible that it's wrong.
859 2011-02-27 10:44:22 <theymos> Do you also get an average target of 61220259...?
860 2011-02-27 10:46:15 <mmagic> operating on the premise that a rapid few days of mining growth is more likely to indicate a smaller number of miners with high powered equipment than a gradual growth of mining activity over a longer time period, that suggests the likelihood of someone able to tamper is much higher than it was.
861 2011-02-27 10:46:22 f3n has quit ()
862 2011-02-27 10:50:11 <mmagic> i therefore conclude that my confidence in the strength of the currency is less than it was before the last difficulty change.
863 2011-02-27 10:50:56 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
864 2011-02-27 10:50:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110885 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 2010 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 0 hours, 5 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 84546.97454674
865 2011-02-27 10:51:13 <mmagic> lol that's pretty awesome, go gribster
866 2011-02-27 10:51:18 <ArtForzZz> well, as long as hashrate keeps growing, thats actually a good sign
867 2011-02-27 10:51:20 hazek has joined
868 2011-02-27 10:51:38 <hazek> sup
869 2011-02-27 10:51:40 <ArtForzZz> if it suddenly drops to 1/3 or so, worry
870 2011-02-27 10:52:27 <hazek> I just discovered this currency
871 2011-02-27 10:52:36 f3n has joined
872 2011-02-27 10:52:39 <hazek> and I have a question if someone wouldn't mind help me out with
873 2011-02-27 10:52:57 f3n has quit (Changing host)
874 2011-02-27 10:52:57 f3n has joined
875 2011-02-27 10:53:08 larsivi has joined
876 2011-02-27 10:53:26 <BlueMatt> why do people always ask if they can ask a question, instead of just asking it?
877 2011-02-27 10:53:39 <hazek> i guess they want to be polite? :)
878 2011-02-27 10:53:58 <f3n> I try to put my preface to the question in the same line as the question
879 2011-02-27 10:54:10 <f3n> therefore its not a delayed but its still polite
880 2011-02-27 10:54:20 <hazek> right so my question is how do you ensure only 21m of coints will get "minted"
881 2011-02-27 10:54:26 <ArtForzZz> standard topic of #whatever-support "don't ask to ask, just ask"
882 2011-02-27 10:54:29 <hazek> coins*
883 2011-02-27 10:54:49 <mmagic> it's a potentially good sign, i think, but a geometric growth within a shorter period will be less likely to be accounted for by multiple miners coincidentally arriving into mining simultaneously, it seems to me. but i agree that a bunch of people quitting together would suck ass worse.
884 2011-02-27 10:55:05 <BlueMatt> if someone tries to mint coins outside of the rules defined by the client, the rest of the clients will just ignore it
885 2011-02-27 10:55:06 <ArtForzZz> actually them *quitting* wouldnt be that bad
886 2011-02-27 10:55:25 <mmagic> define what you mean by "drops to 1/3"
887 2011-02-27 10:55:49 <ArtForzZz> as in, about 400ghps suddenly vanishing
888 2011-02-27 10:55:50 <hazek> BlueMatt so the client can't possibly be changed to allow more then 21m of coins?
889 2011-02-27 10:56:21 <hazek> and how is that achieved
890 2011-02-27 10:56:34 <BlueMatt> hazek: yes anyone could change their client to mine them billions of coins, but everyone else would just ignore their crap
891 2011-02-27 10:57:11 <ArtForzZz> = one large (or a cartel of smaller) miners are suddenly doing ... something else with their hashpower
892 2011-02-27 10:57:29 <hazek> so as long as most of the clients limit the "minting" to 21m it can't be breached
893 2011-02-27 10:57:42 * mmagic wonders about the possibility of a parallel bitcoind fork that mines sub-blocks amongst a subset of cooperating clients.
894 2011-02-27 10:57:42 <BlueMatt> pretty much
895 2011-02-27 10:57:52 <hazek> hypotetical: someone manages to simultaniously change the majority yof clients
896 2011-02-27 10:57:54 <hazek> what then?
897 2011-02-27 10:57:56 <ArtForzZz> = something else is more profitable than bitcoin mining = double-spend or cratel mining attacks become a whole lot easier
898 2011-02-27 10:58:12 <BlueMatt> then the majority will see more coins, but the rest of the normal clients wont
899 2011-02-27 10:58:23 <theymos> hazek: What if the majority of people start using leaves as currency? You just ignore them and use real currency.
900 2011-02-27 10:58:47 <ZenMondo> theymos: no we burn down forrests to fight inflation.
901 2011-02-27 10:58:56 <hazek> ok so there's a clear way of knowing which coins are legit?
902 2011-02-27 10:59:05 <hazek> btw i'm just asking questions
903 2011-02-27 10:59:11 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: you sound very american...
904 2011-02-27 10:59:29 <BlueMatt> hazek: the ones which are accepted by the regular client are
905 2011-02-27 10:59:35 <ZenMondo> Its a joke from HGTTG where they did use leaves as currency
906 2011-02-27 10:59:44 <hazek> right i understand that
907 2011-02-27 11:00:05 <hazek> but how do you know which client is the regular client(might be a dumb question :P)
908 2011-02-27 11:00:09 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
909 2011-02-27 11:00:13 <ZenMondo> coins are confirmed with a proof of work hazek.
910 2011-02-27 11:00:16 <BlueMatt> ZenMondo: ah, never read it, but the movie was good
911 2011-02-27 11:00:33 <BlueMatt> hazek: the one from bitcoin.org, and right now its the ONLY client
912 2011-02-27 11:00:41 <mmagic> hazek: you allow the definition of "regular client" to be dictated by "the client which most of the network runs"
913 2011-02-27 11:00:46 Ratchet has left ("Follow the blue rabbit - http://freenetproject.org")
914 2011-02-27 11:01:14 <hazek> ok i understand that but when I'm thinking this currency over I have a few hypoteticals that I'm wondering about
915 2011-02-27 11:01:30 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
916 2011-02-27 11:01:35 <hazek> one is that someone manages to compromise the official client from bitcoin.org
917 2011-02-27 11:01:48 <hazek> why isn't that possible?
918 2011-02-27 11:02:04 <theymos> It is. Not enough people will upgrade fast enough, though.
919 2011-02-27 11:02:04 <lfm> its open source, someone will notice
920 2011-02-27 11:02:09 <mmagic> hazek: the network won't all switch simultaneously, and someone is likely to notice very quickly.
921 2011-02-27 11:02:20 <BlueMatt> it is, but then you have to wait for the person you want to do business with to upgrade their client
922 2011-02-27 11:02:20 <hazek> ah ok
923 2011-02-27 11:02:28 <hazek> ahhhh
924 2011-02-27 11:02:37 <mmagic> hazek: state your hypotheticals faster.
925 2011-02-27 11:02:42 <hazek> so both clients need to be the same "version"?
926 2011-02-27 11:02:59 <lfm> nope
927 2011-02-27 11:03:01 echelon has joined
928 2011-02-27 11:03:01 <mmagic> hazek: no, just agree to the same rules of engagement
929 2011-02-27 11:03:08 <hazek> ah ok
930 2011-02-27 11:03:45 <devon_hillard> I don't understand why the newer 6xxx series of ati cards are worse (at least) for integer computations than the older 5xxx series
931 2011-02-27 11:03:47 <lfm> version 0.3.0 is still being used and accepted
932 2011-02-27 11:03:49 <hazek> so if I understand this correctly someone could compromise this currency only if they gained access to all the nodes in existance that run the current client?
933 2011-02-27 11:04:08 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
934 2011-02-27 11:04:15 <hazek> which is pretty much impossible
935 2011-02-27 11:04:22 <devon_hillard> also, the hd 5970 is going to stop being produced
936 2011-02-27 11:04:26 <hazek> or only improbable?
937 2011-02-27 11:04:30 <lfm> hazek just 51% is enuf
938 2011-02-27 11:04:48 <Diablo-D3> going?>
939 2011-02-27 11:04:49 <mmagic> devon_hillard: the answer is that computing is not their prime target audience.
940 2011-02-27 11:04:49 <lfm> devon_hillard: has been stopped production
941 2011-02-27 11:04:52 <BlueMatt> there is no magic number, you have to compromise the client of the person you want to trade with
942 2011-02-27 11:04:57 <Diablo-D3> it stopped production late last year
943 2011-02-27 11:05:08 <ZenMondo> thats one of the strengths its distributed, decentralized, peer to peer and every node checks the work of every other node. Bad data is just discarded.
944 2011-02-27 11:05:13 <theymos> >50% is enough for certain bad attacks, though such an attack can't create coins out of thin air.
945 2011-02-27 11:05:17 <mmagic> hazek: it's not impossible. if an exploit is found, you could compromise the entire network simultaneously.
946 2011-02-27 11:05:18 <Diablo-D3> infact, the last gen of 5970s were made with chips that may have not been 5970-rated 5870s
947 2011-02-27 11:05:27 <hazek> <ZenMondo> right right
948 2011-02-27 11:05:27 <devon_hillard> mmagic, lfm: so what, they accidentally released a supercharged GPGPU that was competing too well with their 'enterprise' lines?
949 2011-02-27 11:05:33 <BlueMatt> >50% of network hashing power is enough for certain attacks, not upgrading 51% of clients
950 2011-02-27 11:05:48 <lfm> hazek whats the difference between imposible and highly improbable?
951 2011-02-27 11:06:11 <theymos> "Upgrading" clients doesn't get you anything. Hashing power is all that really matters.
952 2011-02-27 11:06:12 <molecular> ;;bc,calc 666666
953 2011-02-27 11:06:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 666666 Khps, given current difficulty of 55590.23763914 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 28 minutes, and 57 seconds
954 2011-02-27 11:06:15 <hazek> lfm: in the first case it can't happen and in the second case it will happen eventually
955 2011-02-27 11:06:35 <devon_hillard> any other amd gpgpu on the horizon? like 6990
956 2011-02-27 11:06:43 <mmagic> devon_hillard: no, they found a way to make 3d graphics faster and it didn't imply that X computing type also needed to be faster.
957 2011-02-27 11:07:02 <devon_hillard> stream processors are largely renamed shaders, right?
958 2011-02-27 11:07:11 <lfm> devon_hillard: performance isnt their main concern, profit is
959 2011-02-27 11:07:52 <BlueMatt> theymos: if you "upgraded" the client of the person you wanted to trade with you could "give" them btc and get free stuff
960 2011-02-27 11:08:01 <mmagic> devon_hillard: it's called a "video card" and not a "niche parallel computing workhorse" :)
961 2011-02-27 11:08:17 <devon_hillard> it has other applications beyond bitcoin
962 2011-02-27 11:08:22 <devon_hillard> like password cracking :)
963 2011-02-27 11:08:31 <hazek> one more question please: is it possible to trade bitcoins in any other way that doesn't involve the client?
964 2011-02-27 11:08:32 <lfm> devon_hillard: or bitcoin
965 2011-02-27 11:08:46 <theymos> BlueMatt: I suppose so. If you can run code on their computer, you could also just steal their bitcoins.
966 2011-02-27 11:08:46 <mmagic> devon_hillard: that is not the purpose of the card. that is a side-benefit which is (presumably) a value-add
967 2011-02-27 11:08:57 <BlueMatt> theymos: true...
968 2011-02-27 11:09:00 <devon_hillard> there is no reason to get a high end card and use it for gaming
969 2011-02-27 11:09:09 <lfm> hazek see mygox for ways to trade bitcoins without needing a client
970 2011-02-27 11:09:19 <lfm> mygox -> mtgox
971 2011-02-27 11:09:31 f3n has quit ()
972 2011-02-27 11:09:33 <devon_hillard> gaming is made around lowest common denominators, usually
973 2011-02-27 11:09:52 <devon_hillard> well, high ends are useful at video encoding
974 2011-02-27 11:09:52 jrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
975 2011-02-27 11:09:58 <lfm> devon_hillard: computer gaming is also about leading edge
976 2011-02-27 11:10:00 <mmagic> hazek: yes, you can technically shift around keypairs which give the other person authority to spend associated coins, but that requires that the receiver trust the sender isn't going to do it with more than one person simultaneously.
977 2011-02-27 11:10:14 jrabbit has joined
978 2011-02-27 11:10:28 <devon_hillard> lfm: games are made to look great with midrange cards
979 2011-02-27 11:10:48 <devon_hillard> and console releases work fine with even the lowends
980 2011-02-27 11:10:52 <lfm> devon_hillard: and better with top shelf cards
981 2011-02-27 11:10:58 <devon_hillard> not much better
982 2011-02-27 11:11:12 <ArtForzZz> a LOT better
983 2011-02-27 11:11:15 <lfm> doesnt have to be much better so long as its better
984 2011-02-27 11:11:17 <hazek> mmagic say it the sender is croocked and does it with more then one person simultaniously, only one of those recivers will be able to actually spend the coins right?
985 2011-02-27 11:11:26 <mmagic> hazek: there are plenty of ways of trading bitcoins that don't require actual transactions on the network, or the client, or being online, but they all require things like trust, or.. whatever.
986 2011-02-27 11:11:30 <devon_hillard> you go from 80fps to 120 fps, big deal :)
987 2011-02-27 11:11:32 <mmagic> hazek: it's a race to see who spends it first.
988 2011-02-27 11:11:37 <hazek> right
989 2011-02-27 11:11:42 <ArtForzZz> you go from 20 to 30, it IS a big deal
990 2011-02-27 11:12:02 <lfm> hazek only one will be able to confirm receiving the coins
991 2011-02-27 11:12:03 <devon_hillard> any game that works at 20fps on a midrange is just going to bomb
992 2011-02-27 11:12:08 <hazek> let me just say that this is so unbelievably cool
993 2011-02-27 11:12:38 <hazek> especially since it's anonymous and can't be traced
994 2011-02-27 11:12:40 <ArtForzZz> like, pretty much any modern game, at 5760x1080 ?
995 2011-02-27 11:12:41 <lfm> devon_hillard: and with a top card you can play it on 3 screens
996 2011-02-27 11:12:42 <hazek> by the government
997 2011-02-27 11:12:53 <mmagic> hazek: that is NOT true.
998 2011-02-27 11:12:58 <hazek> no?
999 2011-02-27 11:13:05 phantomcircuit has joined
1000 2011-02-27 11:13:19 <lfm> traceing may be possible under some circumstances
1001 2011-02-27 11:13:23 <mmagic> hazek: steve gibson is spreading lies when he says the currency is completely anonymous
1002 2011-02-27 11:13:27 <devon_hillard> lfm: not sure if you're limited by vram or processing powers at higher resolutions (probably need both)
1003 2011-02-27 11:13:30 sethsethseth has joined
1004 2011-02-27 11:13:36 <mmagic> hazek: perhaps "lies" is too strong a word.
1005 2011-02-27 11:13:43 <hazek> ahhhhhh
1006 2011-02-27 11:13:55 <lfm> devon_hillard: mainly processing and bandwidth
1007 2011-02-27 11:14:02 <hazek> that kind of diminishes it's potential i think
1008 2011-02-27 11:14:05 <theymos> All the transactions are publicly available. See http://blockexplorer.com/
1009 2011-02-27 11:14:07 <ArtForzZz> and yes, crappy console ports will work fine at crappy console detail levels, on midrange GPUs roughly equivalent to what's found in ... crappy consoles ;)
1010 2011-02-27 11:14:23 <BlueMatt> its technically anonymous in the fact that all the other party sees is you public key, but if they can match you to a public key, they can probably get quite a bit of your financial history
1011 2011-02-27 11:14:35 <hazek> mmagic would you want to explain to me to what extent is it possible to trace the transations?
1012 2011-02-27 11:15:08 <lfm> the main weakness in the annonymity is when you need to spend em on real things which can be traced
1013 2011-02-27 11:15:10 Mango-chan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1014 2011-02-27 11:15:10 <hazek> BlueMatt yeah but that can't be easy to do right?
1015 2011-02-27 11:15:38 <theymos> See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity
1016 2011-02-27 11:15:40 <hazek> lfm what if you change your public key for every purchase?
1017 2011-02-27 11:15:45 <hazek> ty
1018 2011-02-27 11:15:50 RichardG has joined
1019 2011-02-27 11:16:15 <lfm> hazek: each purchase is another chance for the "attacker" to trace you
1020 2011-02-27 11:16:31 <hazek> even if you change your public key?
1021 2011-02-27 11:16:46 <mmagic> hazek: simple correlation. if the coins stay within the network and there is no information linking a coin with a human, then it is anonymous. in practice, actual transactions usually involve real-life correlatable events. one search warrant and the dilvulgence of a wallet.dat and that person is now correlated with all the transactions his keys were involved in.
1022 2011-02-27 11:16:53 <lfm> make no difference if hey are tracing the real goods and not the bitcoins
1023 2011-02-27 11:17:19 <theymos> Changing your keys for every purchase helps, but since the history of coins are traceable, you still might be found.
1024 2011-02-27 11:17:25 <mmagic> hazek: it's not usually hard to find associated people with more search warrants. :)
1025 2011-02-27 11:17:36 <hazek> argh
1026 2011-02-27 11:18:02 <devon_hillard> it's much harder than going through banks
1027 2011-02-27 11:18:13 <mmagic> hazek: it would be very rare to find a transaction which involved only a movement of bitcoins.
1028 2011-02-27 11:18:51 <hazek> money laundering is one I can think of? :)
1029 2011-02-27 11:18:53 <lfm> ya, banks you just make a phone call and they send you the info (if you're a cop with a warrent)
1030 2011-02-27 11:18:57 <mmagic> "transaction" in that sense defined not as a bitcoin transaction, but an exchange of value between humans.
1031 2011-02-27 11:19:05 <hazek> ahh right
1032 2011-02-27 11:19:35 <devon_hillard> what's the bitcoin wiki link with all the GPUs listed?
1033 2011-02-27 11:19:54 <lfm> ;;bc,wiki
1034 2011-02-27 11:19:54 <gribble> https://bitcoin.it/ | Feb 21, 2011 ... Sourced from Wikipedia. Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. It is also the name of the open source software ...
1035 2011-02-27 11:20:36 RichardG has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1036 2011-02-27 11:21:55 <devon_hillard> found it: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
1037 2011-02-27 11:22:04 <hazek> The reason why I asked this question in regards of anonymity is because I had this thought of Bitcoins maybe being a way how people could "stick it to the man" en mass if you know what I mean
1038 2011-02-27 11:22:17 <mmagic> hazek: you would not only have to create a new keypair, but destroy the old one ever having existed on your machine after spending all coins belonging to that used keypair.
1039 2011-02-27 11:22:46 <mmagic> hazek: just because you hide a bunch of soup cans of cash in the woodpile doesn't mean "the man" can't come and root around in your woodpile.
1040 2011-02-27 11:22:58 <hazek> right
1041 2011-02-27 11:22:59 <theymos> Future versions of Bitcoin could be made to be anonymous. Really the only feature you need is the ability to choose which coins to send.
1042 2011-02-27 11:22:59 <hazek> :)
1043 2011-02-27 11:23:01 <lfm> hazek sure, thats what a lot of bitcoin users think. it might even have some utility along that line but you would still have to know what you're doing
1044 2011-02-27 11:23:35 <hazek> lfm: that goes without saying, hence all these questions ;)
1045 2011-02-27 11:24:14 <mmagic> it adds a level of indirection in funds, but large-scale laundering is not possible with bitcoin until the exchangeable value gets to the point where it can absorb the influx and outflux amongst the noise of normal bitcoin transactions..
1046 2011-02-27 11:24:58 <hazek> interesting
1047 2011-02-27 11:25:11 <mmagic> at the moment, bitcoin users enjoy a form of security through obscurity..
1048 2011-02-27 11:26:37 <hazek> final question: once all coins are minted and these super nodes I hear about won't have a reason to spend all the CPU power on running a node, how do you ensure the integrity of the system?
1049 2011-02-27 11:26:47 <theymos> Laundering is possible if you deposit to MtGox/MyBitcoin and withdraw slowly. Then whoever is investigating you will have to go through MtGox. And you can chain these services, like Tor relays.
1050 2011-02-27 11:26:47 <hazek> not system, rather network of nodes
1051 2011-02-27 11:27:04 <mmagic> hazek: "Satoshi" envisioned a transition to pure transaction fees.
1052 2011-02-27 11:27:25 <hazek> ok sure, but those fees be enough for the strongest cpus?
1053 2011-02-27 11:27:31 <hazek> would those*
1054 2011-02-27 11:27:35 <theymos> The market will adjust the fees appropriately.
1055 2011-02-27 11:28:00 <dissipate> hazek, the fees will adjust based on a supply and demand basis
1056 2011-02-27 11:28:39 <hazek> so what you're saying is that these users with the strongest CPUs will allways have an incetive to run a node
1057 2011-02-27 11:28:48 <dissipate> hazek, the more transactions the higher the demand, the more incentive to find blocks
1058 2011-02-27 11:28:54 <hazek> and whenever it's dimished the market will be willing to pay more so they do?
1059 2011-02-27 11:28:59 <theymos> The most efficient nodes will always be profitable.
1060 2011-02-27 11:29:28 <dissipate> theymos, not true actually.
1061 2011-02-27 11:29:41 <mmagic> theymos: by the time that mining is no longer an incentive, the time will be.. i think quite a number of decades away and probably bitcoin will look quite a bit different than it currently does. i fully expect there to be a cut-over transition to a new form of hashing, for example, long before mining for actual coins ceases.
1062 2011-02-27 11:29:54 <ArtForzZz> well, the most efficient miner might very well be a botnet...
1063 2011-02-27 11:30:21 <mmagic> theymos: sorry, addressed wrongly..
1064 2011-02-27 11:30:21 <theymos> I predict that super-efficient custom hardware will beat all pools and botnets.
1065 2011-02-27 11:30:24 <dissipate> hazek, not always. it could be the case that there would not be enough transactions to cover the costs of setup, equipment and electricity. just like in any business, there may not be enough demand to cover costs.
1066 2011-02-27 11:31:09 <hazek> @theymos that's exactly what I fear
1067 2011-02-27 11:31:25 <hazek> once that happens isn't an attack very possible?
1068 2011-02-27 11:31:41 <theymos> No. Having a small number of miners is good, since they can adapt to attacks very quickly.
1069 2011-02-27 11:31:43 <dissipate> theymos, could be. i have posited a scenario where millions of people just let their 'always on' systems to just 'generate coins' in the default client, causing mining to be unprofitable for anyone.
1070 2011-02-27 11:31:52 <mmagic> hazek: actual asic which can truly beat GPU and Art requires a huge outlay of capital and is currently, as I understand it, not a viable option yet.
1071 2011-02-27 11:32:08 <lfm> dissipate: the most efficient miners mayt have NO expenses so they will always be profitable
1072 2011-02-27 11:32:29 <mmagic> dissipate: mining some coins would be like an auto-lottery LOL
1073 2011-02-27 11:32:52 <dissipate> lfm, not sure how that is possible. and if millions are searching, the payoff will still be small even if their costs are 0.
1074 2011-02-27 11:33:22 <lfm> dissipate: free power cuz their parents pay it perhaps
1075 2011-02-27 11:33:39 endian7000 has joined
1076 2011-02-27 11:33:42 <nextgens> or because they use a botnet
1077 2011-02-27 11:34:02 <dissipate> lfm, what if millions who have 'always on' machines just click 'generate coins'?
1078 2011-02-27 11:34:13 <ArtForzZz> I doubt large-scale at-loss mining would ever happen voluntarily
1079 2011-02-27 11:34:14 <lfm> dissipate: thats fine
1080 2011-02-27 11:34:33 <theymos> dissipate: A network of volunteers would be the worst possible case, IMO. Pool maintainers don't have all that much to lose by abusing their position, and the network would certainly be smaller than it would be under for-profit mining.
1081 2011-02-27 11:34:42 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, there is a lot of computing power being thrown at SETI. that's 'at loss' in my book.
1082 2011-02-27 11:34:45 <ArtForzZz> bitcoin simply doesn't have the feel-good charity appeal of F@H or other distributed projects
1083 2011-02-27 11:34:50 <lfm> ArtForzZz: consider lotteries, they are losing propositions
1084 2011-02-27 11:35:43 <lfm> some people just want to beleive their "luck" is gonna change
1085 2011-02-27 11:35:44 <ArtForzZz> yep
1086 2011-02-27 11:35:53 <ArtForzZz> but lotteries are also designed to be exciting
1087 2011-02-27 11:36:09 <ArtForzZz> bitcoin mining is about as exciting as playing progress quest
1088 2011-02-27 11:36:23 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, i don't know if it will happen. it probably won't. but it is a possible outcome.
1089 2011-02-27 11:36:33 hazek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1090 2011-02-27 11:36:43 <lfm> people in this channel hear about other's who are "lucky" all the time. they think I could be lucky too
1091 2011-02-27 11:36:50 <ArtForzZz> especially with pools
1092 2011-02-27 11:37:46 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, i keep bitcoin open and let nodes connect. that's 'at loss'. :D
1093 2011-02-27 11:37:48 <lfm> the point is not everyone is logical about this
1094 2011-02-27 11:37:53 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1095 2011-02-27 11:38:06 <ArtForzZz> I never said people act rationally
1096 2011-02-27 11:39:01 <ArtForzZz> thing is, imo to have people behave irrationally in large numbers, you need to appeal to emotions
1097 2011-02-27 11:39:08 <sethsethseth> bitcoin mining is super exciting and addicting for me. even though i make $200/hr I find it so fun to look at my wallet and see another few BTC in there from the pool
1098 2011-02-27 11:39:23 <Blitzboom> fuck you :D
1099 2011-02-27 11:39:43 <Blitzboom> what hardware have you got?
1100 2011-02-27 11:40:02 <sethsethseth> i just shoved a couple of 5970's in my rig
1101 2011-02-27 11:40:03 <dissipate> sethsethseth, $200 an hour? what are you? a medical doctor? :O
1102 2011-02-27 11:40:06 <lfm> Blitzboom: his $200/hr isnt from mining
1103 2011-02-27 11:40:09 <ArtForzZz> he probably got a real job ....
1104 2011-02-27 11:40:10 AmpEater has joined
1105 2011-02-27 11:40:11 <sethsethseth> right
1106 2011-02-27 11:40:16 <Blitzboom> oh. okay
1107 2011-02-27 11:40:27 <ArtForzZz> I made similar figures as a consultant
1108 2011-02-27 11:40:27 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1109 2011-02-27 11:40:51 <dissipate> ArtForzZz, 40 hours a week?
1110 2011-02-27 11:41:04 <ArtForzZz> average? nope.
1111 2011-02-27 11:41:06 <dissipate> that's over a grand a day
1112 2011-02-27 11:41:09 <Blitzboom> man, waiting for a block (so transaction is confirmed) is annoying
1113 2011-02-27 11:41:32 <lfm> Blitzboom: it builds the excitement?
1114 2011-02-27 11:41:40 <Blitzboom> still 1000 times better than banks though
1115 2011-02-27 11:41:41 <bxc_> Blitzboom: doesn't mean its definitely confirmed though
1116 2011-02-27 11:41:42 Zarutian has joined
1117 2011-02-27 11:41:52 <bxc_> the system might later on converge on a different chain
1118 2011-02-27 11:42:00 <Blitzboom> yeah, ok
1119 2011-02-27 11:42:03 <Blitzboom> but practically
1120 2011-02-27 11:42:32 <lfm> generally once you get one confirmation you can be pretty sure
1121 2011-02-27 11:42:50 <Blitzboom> ah, there it is :)
1122 2011-02-27 11:43:31 <lfm> I think there was only the one time so far that bitcoin has backed out more than 1 or 2 blocks
1123 2011-02-27 11:43:53 <sethsethseth> if anyone knows a good game that would take advantage of my 5970's and 4800x2560 resolution, im bored/drunk right now
1124 2011-02-27 11:44:01 <dissipate> Blitzboom, mybitcoin is good for small transactions, in my opinion.
1125 2011-02-27 11:44:15 <lfm> sethsethseth: go to a game store
1126 2011-02-27 11:44:17 <Blitzboom> havenât tried it yet
1127 2011-02-27 11:44:21 <Blitzboom> and probably wonât
1128 2011-02-27 11:44:23 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
1129 2011-02-27 11:44:25 <Blitzboom> but maybe
1130 2011-02-27 11:44:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110892 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 2003 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 0 hours, 50 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75976.96332855
1131 2011-02-27 11:45:32 <Blitzboom> one thing i like about being in a pool is that i donât have to have the client open
1132 2011-02-27 11:45:43 <Blitzboom> so i can just switch to another wallet if i like
1133 2011-02-27 11:45:50 <andrewh> Blitzboom: but why would you ever close it?
1134 2011-02-27 11:46:07 <andrewh> ...why do you need more than one wallet?
1135 2011-02-27 11:46:16 <Blitzboom> savings wallet
1136 2011-02-27 11:46:26 <Blitzboom> just for paranoia
1137 2011-02-27 11:46:29 <andrewh> heh
1138 2011-02-27 11:46:36 <lfm> so you dont need it
1139 2011-02-27 11:46:52 <mmagic> andrewh: he's one of the people who's actually had his wallet stolen by douchebag trojan'ers.
1140 2011-02-27 11:47:02 <dissipate> Blitzboom, i use full disk encryption so i'm not worried about having a lot of coins in my live wallet.
1141 2011-02-27 11:47:04 <sipa> we may have crossed the 500GH/s mark...
1142 2011-02-27 11:47:28 <Blitzboom> wow.
1143 2011-02-27 11:47:31 <ArtForzZz> sipa: yup, at least we're close to it
1144 2011-02-27 11:47:46 <andrewh> ok, gonna try to sleep again. wish me luck
1145 2011-02-27 11:47:46 <Blitzboom> ah, http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png updated
1146 2011-02-27 11:47:53 <Blitzboom> good night
1147 2011-02-27 11:48:05 <sipa> yeah, had to adjust the y-axis
1148 2011-02-27 11:48:28 <andrewh> sipa: remove the index page on your webserver :P
1149 2011-02-27 11:48:37 <lfm> too much smoothing
1150 2011-02-27 11:48:37 <andrewh> the lighttpd placeholder
1151 2011-02-27 11:48:41 <sipa> andrewh: right, too lazy :)
1152 2011-02-27 11:48:42 <Blitzboom> whatâs 1000 ghash? a terahash?
1153 2011-02-27 11:48:47 <ArtForzZz> yup
1154 2011-02-27 11:49:13 <andrewh> s/hash/hashes/
1155 2011-02-27 11:49:41 <ArtForzZz> for comparison, F@H would be somewhere around 2Thps
1156 2011-02-27 11:49:59 <andrewh> altogether?
1157 2011-02-27 11:50:01 <andrewh> damn
1158 2011-02-27 11:50:06 <ArtForzZz> yup
1159 2011-02-27 11:50:08 ZenoTasedro has joined
1160 2011-02-27 11:50:18 <andrewh> bitcoin's 1/4th as popular as folding@home
1161 2011-02-27 11:50:19 <andrewh> :p
1162 2011-02-27 11:50:25 <Blitzboom> not bad at all!
1163 2011-02-27 11:50:27 <ArtForzZz> CPUs are about as fast at integer as at single precision floating point, same for GPUs
1164 2011-02-27 11:50:31 <lfm> so another 3 months we could be there
1165 2011-02-27 11:50:43 Xunie has joined
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1167 2011-02-27 11:51:12 <ArtForzZz> so you actually can compare intops and flops pretty much 1:1
1168 2011-02-27 11:51:42 <ArtForzZz> ati gpus are a bit of an exception, as they have operations *very* useful to speeding up sha256
1169 2011-02-27 11:52:37 <andrewh> i am typing this with my tounge
1170 2011-02-27 11:52:55 <andrewh> gosh that took a long time
1171 2011-02-27 11:52:58 <lfm> andrewh: why? and btw eeewww
1172 2011-02-27 11:53:08 <andrewh> for lols
1173 2011-02-27 11:53:12 <andrewh> i can do it with my nose too
1174 2011-02-27 11:53:15 <ArtForzZz> roughly 6k intops = 1 hash/s
1175 2011-02-27 11:53:45 <andrewh> typed with nose
1176 2011-02-27 11:53:48 <ArtForzZz> well, more like 6.3, but who's counting
1177 2011-02-27 11:54:01 <lfm> helps some I guess to have the right rotates
1178 2011-02-27 11:54:05 <ArtForzZz> yep
1179 2011-02-27 11:54:07 <Blitzboom> i hope i will never ever find a block on pooled mining
1180 2011-02-27 11:54:16 <ArtForzZz> rotate op helps a lot
1181 2011-02-27 11:54:20 <Blitzboom> i donât even want to see the information
1182 2011-02-27 11:54:30 <ArtForzZz> drops that by about 1/3
1183 2011-02-27 11:54:46 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1184 2011-02-27 11:54:52 <ArtForzZz> 6356 vs 4148 ops
1185 2011-02-27 11:56:21 <ArtForzZz> about 3840 if you also have a one-opcode Ch()
1186 2011-02-27 11:56:45 <BlueMatt> which only art's miner has...
1187 2011-02-27 11:57:17 <ArtForzZz> and mrbs iirc, but for some reason his is a LOT slower
1188 2011-02-27 11:57:37 <ArtForzZz> either not using BFI_INT correctly or badly optimized algo
1189 2011-02-27 11:58:12 <knotwork> do any of the little dongle things or smartcards do SHA256?
1190 2011-02-27 11:58:16 <ArtForzZz> yes
1191 2011-02-27 11:58:28 <ArtForzZz> very slowly
1192 2011-02-27 11:58:46 <knotwork> yeah but how cheap are they by the many thousands
1193 2011-02-27 11:58:53 <ArtForzZz> doesnt matter
1194 2011-02-27 11:59:02 <BlueMatt> are you ever gonna release your miner art?
1195 2011-02-27 11:59:18 <ArtForzZz> BlueMatt: public? probably not.
1196 2011-02-27 11:59:21 <lfm> knotwork: considering they only usually need to do one or two per second, we need thousands and millions per second
1197 2011-02-27 12:00:53 <ArtForzZz> also bitcoinhash is a *lot* different from normal sha256
1198 2011-02-27 12:00:58 <knotwork> are there things CPUs can do faster than GPUs? cryptologically useful things?
1199 2011-02-27 12:01:12 <molecular> does a miner mine faster if you dont look?
1200 2011-02-27 12:01:14 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: how so?
1201 2011-02-27 12:01:34 <ArtForzZz> you usually hash a stream of data
1202 2011-02-27 12:01:49 <ArtForzZz> not nearly the same block over and over
1203 2011-02-27 12:02:02 <ArtForzZz> = very different balance of computation vs. I/O
1204 2011-02-27 12:02:15 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
1205 2011-02-27 12:02:41 <Blitzboom> do trees disappear if you donât look? :D
1206 2011-02-27 12:02:58 larsig has joined
1207 2011-02-27 12:03:07 <lfm> do the dice roll different if you dont look?
1208 2011-02-27 12:03:10 <molecular> Blitzboom, you mean "does a falling tree make a sound if noone listens?"
1209 2011-02-27 12:03:27 <Blitzboom> ah, that was it
1210 2011-02-27 12:03:46 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1211 2011-02-27 12:04:12 <ArtForzZz> and, is schrodingers cat dead?
1212 2011-02-27 12:04:31 <Blitzboom> yes and no
1213 2011-02-27 12:04:46 <ArtForzZz> or both ;)
1214 2011-02-27 12:04:47 <molecular> would quantum computers be able to calculate the nonce given the hash?
1215 2011-02-27 12:05:02 jrabbit has joined
1216 2011-02-27 12:05:10 <Blitzboom> haha quantum computers
1217 2011-02-27 12:05:12 <ArtForzZz> nope
1218 2011-02-27 12:05:16 <BlueMatt> does it matter? they can calculate the private keys from the public keys
1219 2011-02-27 12:05:24 <molecular> can they?
1220 2011-02-27 12:05:26 <ArtForzZz> reduction of entropy doesn't work that way
1221 2011-02-27 12:06:12 <BlueMatt> Art: do the key pairs not still depend on prime factorization?
1222 2011-02-27 12:06:31 <ArtForzZz> ECC keypairs? nope, they depend on the EC-DLP
1223 2011-02-27 12:06:48 <molecular> hm, my laymans understanding of a quantum computer is: you can put in all kinds of data in "parallel", then read the desired result and somehow find the "correct" input. but that seems to be a totally bogus understanding.
1224 2011-02-27 12:06:50 <ArtForzZz> if you're compressing 80 bytes to 16, theres about 2**512 possible inputs producing each output
1225 2011-02-27 12:07:37 <BlueMatt> well quantum computers can calculate rsa keypairs which would kill all modern ssl
1226 2011-02-27 12:07:39 <molecular> 8*(80-16) = 512
1227 2011-02-27 12:07:44 <ArtForzZz> yep
1228 2011-02-27 12:08:07 <molecular> but to find one of the 2^512 is good enough
1229 2011-02-27 12:08:18 <ArtForzZz> depends on what you want to do with it?
1230 2011-02-27 12:08:27 <lfm> to 32 bytes?
1231 2011-02-27 12:08:41 <ArtForzZz> wait, sha256
1232 2011-02-27 12:08:46 <molecular> go from hash + part of data -> nonce
1233 2011-02-27 12:08:50 <ArtForzZz> so it's 80 to 32 bytes
1234 2011-02-27 12:09:14 <sipa> andrewh: done :)
1235 2011-02-27 12:09:37 <ArtForzZz> so "only" 2**384 possible inputs ;)
1236 2011-02-27 12:09:49 <ArtForzZz> molecular: in theory it could be possible
1237 2011-02-27 12:09:51 <molecular> BlueMatt, so if I have a 1024 bit quantum computer and a 1024 bit rsa pubkey, I can calculate the private key?
1238 2011-02-27 12:10:13 <ArtForzZz> in polynomial (or was it linear?) time, yes
1239 2011-02-27 12:10:21 <BlueMatt> linear iirc
1240 2011-02-27 12:10:26 <lfm> for a single hash output but we accept any hash with the right zero bits at one end
1241 2011-02-27 12:10:29 <ArtForzZz> and we still have no clue what the constants would look like
1242 2011-02-27 12:10:35 <molecular> doesnt matter, polynomial is good enough
1243 2011-02-27 12:10:44 <ArtForzZz> or, it does matter
1244 2011-02-27 12:10:44 <BlueMatt> no, its polynomial
1245 2011-02-27 12:11:02 <ArtForzZz> constants *do* matter in the real world
1246 2011-02-27 12:12:11 <molecular> ok, so will it be in O(n^2) or O(n^3) <- that might be ok with n = 1024 for some practical purposes
1247 2011-02-27 12:12:20 <andrewh> sipa: nifty
1248 2011-02-27 12:12:58 <andrewh> wow
1249 2011-02-27 12:13:02 <andrewh> the %/day graph is crazy
1250 2011-02-27 12:13:33 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor's_algorithm
1251 2011-02-27 12:13:38 <ArtForzZz> yup, wp says O(log(n)**3)
1252 2011-02-27 12:14:33 <molecular> like the practical purpose of stealing the 400.000 btc at adress xyz
1253 2011-02-27 12:14:54 <ArtForzZz> you need soemthing different for DLP though
1254 2011-02-27 12:14:58 <molecular> haven't quantum computers been built with like 8 bits or something... are they usable?
1255 2011-02-27 12:15:00 <BlueMatt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography#Quantum_computing_attacks
1256 2011-02-27 12:15:34 <ArtForzZz> modified shors should work
1257 2011-02-27 12:15:42 satamusic has joined
1258 2011-02-27 12:15:48 <ArtForzZz> lol
1259 2011-02-27 12:16:03 <BlueMatt> so...bitcoin's key pairs are still vulnerable if a quantum computer is built
1260 2011-02-27 12:16:28 <ArtForzZz> a 256-qbit quantum computer
1261 2011-02-27 12:16:43 <molecular> we have other problems then, I think (ssh)
1262 2011-02-27 12:16:53 <BlueMatt> more like ssl
1263 2011-02-27 12:17:23 <nextgens> think your real-world bank
1264 2011-02-27 12:17:26 <ArtForzZz> which iirc is a major problem, as so far it looks like error rate increases exponentially with # of qbits
1265 2011-02-27 12:17:35 <eps> quantum computing would likely be such a sea change that bitcoin becomes irrelevant
1266 2011-02-27 12:17:40 <ArtForzZz> yep
1267 2011-02-27 12:17:47 <eps> free energy would probably follow shortly after
1268 2011-02-27 12:17:59 <eps> at which point we are living in the star trak universe
1269 2011-02-27 12:18:04 <eps> s/trak/trek/
1270 2011-02-27 12:18:15 <eps> and money is no longer needed
1271 2011-02-27 12:18:33 <BlueMatt> if a q-computer is built, it will first be at the govt level, so they will have control of virtually all public/private algos
1272 2011-02-27 12:18:53 <BlueMatt> It will *eventually* be included in other computers, but that is a long way off
1273 2011-02-27 12:19:23 <BlueMatt> and do we even have a public/private algo on q-computers that cant be broken with q-computers?
1274 2011-02-27 12:20:05 <eps> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_money
1275 2011-02-27 12:20:10 <molecular> ArtForzZz, that error-rate problem a fundemental one or one that can be contained?
1276 2011-02-27 12:20:36 <ArtForzZz> iirc so far it looks like a fundamental problem
1277 2011-02-27 12:20:49 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1278 2011-02-27 12:21:07 <molecular> hmm, decoherence time...
1279 2011-02-27 12:21:12 <ArtForzZz> havent followed it recently, but a few years ago all practical approaches showed the same behaviour
1280 2011-02-27 12:21:47 <molecular> good, we need strong crypto
1281 2011-02-27 12:24:15 TD has joined
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1285 2011-02-27 12:35:22 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
1286 2011-02-27 12:46:20 <knotwork> the problems actually solved so far by actual quantum computers are actually so trivial that
1287 2011-02-27 12:46:36 <knotwork> they hardly really qualify as an actual proof of concept.
1288 2011-02-27 12:47:04 <knotwork> search for Christian's papers about the fundamental mathematical mistake embedded right
1289 2011-02-27 12:47:19 <knotwork> in the first few assumptions of Bell's Theorem.
1290 2011-02-27 12:47:59 <knotwork> In one of his papers he shows how clicky-type plastic balls that click together two hemispheres,
1291 2011-02-27 12:48:27 <knotwork> weighted symettrically with weights inside diametriacally opposed, can duplicate Bell's results
1292 2011-02-27 12:48:43 <knotwork> when you heat them like popcorn to get random exploding-apart hemispheres
1293 2011-02-27 12:49:13 <knotwork> the fundamental math error is basically akin to treating a die as in dice as if it were only 1-dimensional
1294 2011-02-27 12:49:33 <knotwork> then thinking it amazing how 1 and 6 correllate, 2 and 5 correlate, 3 and 4 correlate
1295 2011-02-27 12:50:01 <knotwork> (assuming traditional 3d cubic die in which opposite faces pips total 7)
1296 2011-02-27 12:50:13 <sethsethseth> interesting
1297 2011-02-27 12:50:17 <knotwork> its a geometry error basically
1298 2011-02-27 12:53:14 <knotwork> I am still a bit confused though how there can be no hidden variables if there are in fact entire ignored/forgotten dimensions
1299 2011-02-27 12:53:41 <knotwork> seems like those ommitted geometric facts pretty much must amount to "hidden variables"
1300 2011-02-27 12:54:20 <knotwork> or maybe think "not hidden variables, simply ones mathematicians totally forgot for four decades or so"
1301 2011-02-27 12:55:08 <knotwork> if Christian is right gosh knows what other things maths and physics still believe that are basically
1302 2011-02-27 12:55:19 <knotwork> typoes they all overlooked since gosh knows when
1303 2011-02-27 12:55:47 <knotwork> programmers should feel a warm glow knowing they aren't the only people who write buggy things :)
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1315 2011-02-27 14:09:21 <TD> ;;bc,d
1316 2011-02-27 14:09:21 <gribble> I do not know about 'bc,d', but I do know about these similar topics: 'bbe'
1317 2011-02-27 14:09:28 <TD> bummer. i forgot the syntax
1318 2011-02-27 14:09:38 <TD> ;;bc,stats
1319 2011-02-27 14:09:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110911 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 1984 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 11 hours, 51 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75403.39121122
1320 2011-02-27 14:09:53 <TD> amazing. difficult to 75k already?!
1321 2011-02-27 14:10:08 <TD> i'd love to know who is putting all this power into the network. can it really be organic growth?
1322 2011-02-27 14:10:17 <AmpEater> I didn't helpbthat
1323 2011-02-27 14:10:19 <lfm> thats a wild guess since the diff just changed
1324 2011-02-27 14:10:33 <TD> AmpEater: how much are you putting in?
1325 2011-02-27 14:10:41 <TD> lfm: ah ok. fair enough.
1326 2011-02-27 14:10:53 <AmpEater> 6 5970s worth
1327 2011-02-27 14:11:08 <TD> nice
1328 2011-02-27 14:11:28 <AmpEater> Like 4ghash
1329 2011-02-27 14:11:40 <AmpEater> 1% of network
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1332 2011-02-27 14:13:17 AmpEater_ is now known as AmpEater
1333 2011-02-27 14:13:56 <sipa> it really seems to be continuing to grow
1334 2011-02-27 14:14:39 <nextgens> I was pondering adding 20x GTX 470 earlier and decided not to
1335 2011-02-27 14:15:16 <nextgens> they ran for like 20s and I stopped it, deciding it was a waste of ressources
1336 2011-02-27 14:15:58 <TD> i'm thinking of taking out one of vladimirs contracts
1337 2011-02-27 14:16:02 <TD> adding a few gigahashes or so
1338 2011-02-27 14:16:04 <TD> we
1339 2011-02-27 14:16:04 <TD> r
1340 2011-02-27 14:16:12 <TD> we're getting to the point now where bitcoin has a credible anti-botnet story
1341 2011-02-27 14:18:21 <sipa> at 0.2 $/kWh and 0.96 $/BTC, a ati 5970 still earns 5.4 times as much as it costs in electricity
1342 2011-02-27 14:18:38 <luke-jr> that's all?
1343 2011-02-27 14:18:51 <sipa> oh, at difficulty 75403
1344 2011-02-27 14:18:59 <gasteve> so far, mine hasn't earned me squat ;)
1345 2011-02-27 14:19:14 <sipa> currently, it's 7.3x
1346 2011-02-27 14:23:54 AmpEater has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1347 2011-02-27 14:29:48 AmpEater has joined
1348 2011-02-27 14:30:32 <TD> sipa: yeah but nobody pays just for electricity. amortized hardware costs are the big ticket item
1349 2011-02-27 14:30:39 <TD> assuming you buy one for mining
1350 2011-02-27 14:30:43 <TD> if you have one lying around then sure
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1355 2011-02-27 14:33:34 <gasteve> has anyone thought about using Chrome for the cross platform UI?
1356 2011-02-27 14:33:41 saus has joined
1357 2011-02-27 14:34:11 <gasteve> I don't mean running the full chrome browser...I mean using the rendering engine (webkit) and v8
1358 2011-02-27 14:34:16 <saus> question: how do I enable bitcoin to utilize my GPU?
1359 2011-02-27 14:34:49 <lfm> saus you get a gpu miner
1360 2011-02-27 14:35:03 <lfm> saus its a addon program
1361 2011-02-27 14:35:34 <gasteve> seems like using chrome would be more viable long term than wxWidgets...and anyone handy with html and javascript could contribute to improvements in the UI
1362 2011-02-27 14:39:18 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1363 2011-02-27 14:41:16 wumpus has joined
1364 2011-02-27 14:41:28 <gasteve> BlueMatt: i agree w/that
1365 2011-02-27 14:41:47 <TD> well, define "written properly". the current code is ok, just needs a bit of refactoring and better documentation if you want a library
1366 2011-02-27 14:41:58 <BlueMatt> I agree, I think that would be fine
1367 2011-02-27 14:42:21 <BlueMatt> I think the current code split into 3 pieces and documented would be great
1368 2011-02-27 14:45:00 <gasteve> btw, I'm finding that splitting things up would be real handy for me right now...I don't run my client with my real funds that often and when I do, it takes a while for it to find connections and catch up to the latest blocks...it would be much better if it could connect through my other client that runs all the time (for mining) and simply query the latest blocks for transactions that it hasn't seen yet
1369 2011-02-27 14:45:30 <BlueMatt> Though I think the proposal from ??? from yesterday where there is a bitcoin-networkd which connects to the network passes blocks,txes etc which is connected to via some tcp connection by regular clients
1370 2011-02-27 14:45:50 <BlueMatt> This would allow for public networkds on sites like mybitcoin
1371 2011-02-27 14:46:09 <BlueMatt> Then you would have walletd which would manage the wallet and manage permissions and security
1372 2011-02-27 14:46:22 <BlueMatt> The on top of those you would have your gui/cli clients incl rpc daemon
1373 2011-02-27 14:47:02 <TD> gasteve: there is a command line switch that makes it connect to a specific peer
1374 2011-02-27 14:47:15 <BlueMatt> https://gist.github.com/845271
1375 2011-02-27 14:47:19 <BlueMatt> that was the proposal
1376 2011-02-27 14:48:04 <gasteve> yeah...as I wrote that, I was thinking there probably was such a thing...still, it would be even better if it could query the client for transactions rather than transfer all the blocks and process them itself
1377 2011-02-27 14:48:08 <BlueMatt> so...who wants to implement that
1378 2011-02-27 14:48:16 <RBecker> ;;bc,blocks
1379 2011-02-27 14:48:16 <gribble> 110919
1380 2011-02-27 14:48:57 <BlueMatt> yea, the client wouldnt ever need to dl the block chain
1381 2011-02-27 14:49:11 <BlueMatt> Nor the tx list
1382 2011-02-27 14:49:30 <BlueMatt> Though it might want that if it is mining, the tx list and last block that is
1383 2011-02-27 14:49:45 <gasteve> BlueMatt, I can help
1384 2011-02-27 14:50:52 <BlueMatt> Ive never written a library in C++, or anything in C++, so...
1385 2011-02-27 14:51:19 <BlueMatt> All I can do is jump up and down, offer comments and hope someone gets excited enough to do it
1386 2011-02-27 14:57:36 <BlueMatt> gasteve: If you are interested, maybe you could clone bitcoin on github and start outlining what there is to be done...
1387 2011-02-27 14:57:42 <BlueMatt> I would help wherever I could
1388 2011-02-27 14:57:48 <BlueMatt> maybe learn some C++ along the way
1389 2011-02-27 14:58:30 <knotwork> OpenTransaction uses an API kit that lets you churn out libs for many languages
1390 2011-02-27 14:58:52 <knotwork> I found that really useful as it let me build it for tcl for use with eggdrop irc bots
1391 2011-02-27 14:58:56 <BlueMatt> link?
1392 2011-02-27 14:59:31 <gasteve> I've already cloned from github, just need to start learning the code
1393 2011-02-27 15:00:26 <gasteve> I made a comment on your API spec
1394 2011-02-27 15:02:01 <knotwork> BlueMatt: http://www.swig.org/
1395 2011-02-27 15:07:16 AmpEater has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1396 2011-02-27 15:10:54 <gasteve> why doesn't the github network graph viewer show tags? seems the labels only show branch heads
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1398 2011-02-27 15:28:13 RBecker has joined
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1409 2011-02-27 16:00:45 bk128 has joined
1410 2011-02-27 16:03:23 Lachesis has joined
1411 2011-02-27 16:03:42 <bk128> ;;bc,gen 1000000
1412 2011-02-27 16:03:43 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 55590.23763914 , is 18.0936154135 BTC per day and 0.753900642229 BTC per hour.
1413 2011-02-27 16:09:11 <Lachesis> ;;bc,stats
1414 2011-02-27 16:09:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110928 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 1967 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 2 hours, 35 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76635.82891708
1415 2011-02-27 16:12:24 <Lachesis> jeez, that's a huge increase
1416 2011-02-27 16:12:36 <Lachesis> 52%
1417 2011-02-27 16:14:06 <EvanR_> god dammit
1418 2011-02-27 16:14:09 <EvanR_> 55590
1419 2011-02-27 16:14:28 <EvanR_> and the next estimate is going to be wildly off at this point
1420 2011-02-27 16:14:55 <EvanR_> next estimate 110000
1421 2011-02-27 16:15:56 <pozic> Has the Python miner ever generated a block?
1422 2011-02-27 16:17:33 Cusipzzz has joined
1423 2011-02-27 16:20:29 <gasteve> pozic: I'm beginning to wonder the same thing about diable ;)
1424 2011-02-27 16:20:55 <pozic> gasteve: how long have you been running it?
1425 2011-02-27 16:21:10 <pozic> It could also just be really, really hard.
1426 2011-02-27 16:21:25 <gasteve> nearly 4 days (on a 5970...getting ~600Mhash/s)
1427 2011-02-27 16:21:46 <pozic> AFAIK, it is 55000 times more difficult than it was when they started.
1428 2011-02-27 16:22:03 <pozic> When they started it was one per 10 minutes on a CPU.
1429 2011-02-27 16:23:10 <Lachesis> pozic, and far less efficient
1430 2011-02-27 16:23:22 <Lachesis> my laptop was getting ~1200kh/s total
1431 2011-02-27 16:23:49 <pozic> If all the CPU miners would join to try and invert the sha256 function for 0 prefixed outputs, that would probably be a lot faster.
1432 2011-02-27 16:24:03 <Lachesis> pozic, what is this?
1433 2011-02-27 16:24:18 <pozic> History tells us that every hash function has been broken.
1434 2011-02-27 16:25:02 <pozic> Lachesis: there exist slow (but optimal) algorithms to do general function inversion.
1435 2011-02-27 16:25:28 <pozic> Lachesis: they require ridiculous amounts of CPU power, but the Bitcoin network will get to that at some point surely.
1436 2011-02-27 16:25:30 <Lachesis> so what, you're suggesting that CPUs should try to break SHA to make bitcoins?
1437 2011-02-27 16:25:38 <gasteve> I thought they were broken by trying to find a sequence of bytes that yields a certain hash result in something less than a brute force attack?
1438 2011-02-27 16:25:38 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stat
1439 2011-02-27 16:25:39 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
1440 2011-02-27 16:25:40 <JunK-Y> ;;bc,stats
1441 2011-02-27 16:25:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110930 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 1965 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 3 hours, 26 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76211.54751131
1442 2011-02-27 16:25:45 <pozic> At that point we will find out whether or not sha256 is really secure.
1443 2011-02-27 16:25:49 <pozic> I doubt it.
1444 2011-02-27 16:26:09 <pozic> Lachesis: yes
1445 2011-02-27 16:26:26 <pozic> gasteve: that is the accepted interpretation of 'breaking'.
1446 2011-02-27 16:27:53 <gasteve> ok, but I don't think you can find such a shortcut through some brute force method...I believe it would require some kind of mathematical approach and then using heavy computation to validate whether it works
1447 2011-02-27 16:28:07 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1448 2011-02-27 16:28:27 <pozic> gasteve: you don't even need that.
1449 2011-02-27 16:28:39 <pozic> gasteve: you just need to write something like an OOPS machine.
1450 2011-02-27 16:28:43 <gasteve> so, you would basically need to come up with a hypothesis about an alternate method to find a solution and then test it
1451 2011-02-27 16:29:22 <gasteve> what's an OOPS machine?
1452 2011-02-27 16:29:43 <pozic> A Bias Optimal Ordered Problem solver.
1453 2011-02-27 16:30:50 <bk128> isnt that BOOPS?
1454 2011-02-27 16:31:57 <pozic> They guy called it OOPS.
1455 2011-02-27 16:32:05 <pozic> The*
1456 2011-02-27 16:32:13 <bk128> :)
1457 2011-02-27 16:32:23 <pozic> Anyway, it is a smarted algorithm than the way people are currently searching for bitcoins.
1458 2011-02-27 16:32:29 <pozic> smarter*
1459 2011-02-27 16:32:51 <pozic> It just only pays off when you have 10000s of CPUs to work on the problem.
1460 2011-02-27 16:32:53 <gasteve> ok, but you would still need some theory about the hash algorithm that would let you infer some progress toward a solution from a previous hash computation
1461 2011-02-27 16:33:01 <gasteve> (in order for OOPS to be useful)
1462 2011-02-27 16:33:19 <pozic> gasteve: no, you can just seed it with all the algorithms for breaking other hashfunctions.
1463 2011-02-27 16:33:24 <gasteve> (maybe such a theory exists for SHA-256, I don't know)
1464 2011-02-27 16:33:40 <pozic> gasteve: that way you essentially get an expert program for cracking cyphers.
1465 2011-02-27 16:34:04 <pozic> gasteve: these kinds of things are how the 21st century is going to compute.
1466 2011-02-27 16:36:03 <gasteve> well, regardless, if someone did find a shortcut to finding a solution, I imagine it will still require substantial computation...it would just mean the the difficulty would go that much higher
1467 2011-02-27 16:36:45 <pozic> Sure, but then that guy could generate for half the planet.
1468 2011-02-27 16:36:46 tower has joined
1469 2011-02-27 16:36:50 <gasteve> yes
1470 2011-02-27 16:37:24 <gasteve> that person would get all the new blocks until someone else managed to figure out what they did
1471 2011-02-27 16:38:00 <BlueMatt> by the time anyone has done that, the blocks will be outputting 0.00001 btc/block and youd just be making tx fees
1472 2011-02-27 16:38:54 <gasteve> BlueMatt: you're assuming that it's going to take a long time to find an attack...but it's possible some mathematician could find it tomorrow
1473 2011-02-27 16:39:22 tower is now known as towerX
1474 2011-02-27 16:39:25 <gasteve> or this afternoon ;)
1475 2011-02-27 16:39:51 <BlueMatt> Im saying using pozic's solution using an automated system to do it
1476 2011-02-27 16:40:00 <BlueMatt> a mathematician would be much more effecient
1477 2011-02-27 16:41:12 saus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1478 2011-02-27 16:42:05 <pozic> BlueMatt: it depends on which mathematician ;)
1479 2011-02-27 16:42:19 <pozic> BlueMatt: also, a mathematician is far from a complete decision procedure.
1480 2011-02-27 16:42:40 <pozic> A computer at least will generate an answer when there is one.
1481 2011-02-27 16:42:58 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1482 2011-02-27 16:43:03 <BlueMatt> In any case, yes a sha256 break could be a problem for the bitcoin network
1483 2011-02-27 16:43:18 <pozic> Humans already die after 30 years of work or so.
1484 2011-02-27 16:43:53 <pozic> Some problems have taken 120 years to solve. Perhaps building a custom super computer to solve that problem would have been faster.
1485 2011-02-27 16:43:54 <BlueMatt> Thus people have come up with ideas on how to transfer to a new hash algorithm
1486 2011-02-27 16:44:08 <BlueMatt> Which the network will do if sha256 is broken
1487 2011-02-27 16:44:25 <pozic> But how do people know that it has been broken?
1488 2011-02-27 16:45:01 <BlueMatt> ...because someone will announce it, you dont think bitcoin is that popular do you?
1489 2011-02-27 16:45:22 <pozic> I don't see any advantage of announcing it.
1490 2011-02-27 16:45:42 <pozic> You could become a millionaire already over the period of a few years.
1491 2011-02-27 16:46:12 <BlueMatt> Because mathematicians are paid by a university who wants their name on popular papers, thus mathematicians write papers when they find something big
1492 2011-02-27 16:46:46 <BlueMatt> and the bitcoin network would immediately notice if one person starts getting all the blocks
1493 2011-02-27 16:46:55 <BlueMatt> so a new client will be released with a new hash algo
1494 2011-02-27 16:48:56 Cuukey has joined
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1496 2011-02-27 16:49:38 <pozic> BlueMatt: so, we should switch immediately after ArtForz gets his custom chips?
1497 2011-02-27 16:50:01 <pozic> BlueMatt: you are essentially saying that because someone managed to find an advantage, the network must switch.
1498 2011-02-27 16:50:02 <BlueMatt> he already has them on the network...and they dont do *that* much more than a bunch of gcards
1499 2011-02-27 16:50:25 <BlueMatt> No, if someone breaks sha256, they would be getting a block/sec, that would be noticed VERY quickly
1500 2011-02-27 16:50:39 <pozic> BlueMatt: ok, so someone who breaks it just should create lots of different identities, all creating slightly more than average.
1501 2011-02-27 16:50:44 <BlueMatt> if someone finds a better algorithm, on the other hand, that is not breaking sha256, then good for them
1502 2011-02-27 16:50:55 <pozic> BlueMatt: I don't see how you are going to see who everyone is.
1503 2011-02-27 16:51:19 <BlueMatt> it doesnt matter, the total network would still be generating FAR more than it previously did
1504 2011-02-27 16:51:26 <BlueMatt> that would be quite obvious
1505 2011-02-27 16:51:49 <Lachesis> pozic, yeah, if difficulty quadruples repeatedly, people will sit up and take notice
1506 2011-02-27 16:53:10 <pozic> Wouldn't it be a good idea to already put some difficulty factor into place then?
1507 2011-02-27 16:53:28 <BlueMatt> ...there is a difficulty factor
1508 2011-02-27 16:53:37 <pozic> (At which time another hash will be going to be used)
1509 2011-02-27 16:53:38 <BlueMatt> it automatically adjusts to limit the number of blocks/hour
1510 2011-02-27 16:54:02 <Lachesis> BlueMatt, i think pozic is suggesting that we put in a failsafe
1511 2011-02-27 16:54:04 <pozic> BlueMatt: yes, I know that. I mean that when the difficulty factor is greater than some number a new hash function is automatically selected.
1512 2011-02-27 16:54:09 <Lachesis> yeah
1513 2011-02-27 16:54:10 <Lachesis> that
1514 2011-02-27 16:54:17 <BlueMatt> no, because that might simply indicate there is a large amount of computing resources coming online
1515 2011-02-27 16:54:21 <BlueMatt> say, a couple supercomputers
1516 2011-02-27 16:54:22 <pozic> Of course, the "community" would have to agree on that.
1517 2011-02-27 16:54:25 <Lachesis> pozic, i would think more like when the diff rate goes up too much
1518 2011-02-27 16:55:12 <BlueMatt> In any case, the network would switch to a new hash quickly as it wouldnt require much coding...you solution is complicated and isnt worth the effort as it could cause problems down the road
1519 2011-02-27 16:55:34 <BlueMatt> you dont want to overcomplicate it, it just creates more attack surface
1520 2011-02-27 16:58:03 <xelister> ;;bc,calc 177000
1521 2011-02-27 16:58:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 177000 Khps, given current difficulty of 55590.23763914 , is 2 weeks, 1 day, 14 hours, 41 minutes, and 56 seconds
1522 2011-02-27 16:58:33 <xelister> ;;bc,stats
1523 2011-02-27 16:58:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110932 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 1963 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 11 hours, 55 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 73510.11125183
1524 2011-02-27 16:58:46 <xelister> ja 73k diff.
1525 2011-02-27 16:58:52 <BlueMatt> ouch
1526 2011-02-27 16:59:03 <xelister> so it will be like 200,000 diff in a month.
1527 2011-02-27 16:59:22 <BlueMatt> yea, its exponential all right
1528 2011-02-27 16:59:32 <xelister> will it be 1 milion in few months?
1529 2011-02-27 16:59:39 <BlueMatt> who knows
1530 2011-02-27 16:59:47 <xelister> ;;bc,calcd 630000 1000000
1531 2011-02-27 16:59:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 630000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1000000, is 11 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 28 seconds
1532 2011-02-27 16:59:49 <pozic> It could also be 0.
1533 2011-02-27 16:59:59 <xelister> pozic: no, it is clipped to min 1
1534 2011-02-27 17:00:00 <BlueMatt> the lower bound is 1
1535 2011-02-27 17:00:23 <xelister> ha, perhaps in few months it will take 3 months on radeon 5970 to generate =)
1536 2011-02-27 17:00:25 <pozic> If nobody runs it, you can say it is zero.
1537 2011-02-27 17:00:35 genjix has joined
1538 2011-02-27 17:00:54 <xelister> ;;bc,gen 630000
1539 2011-02-27 17:00:55 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 630000 Khps, given current difficulty of 55590.23763914 , is 11.3989777105 BTC per day and 0.474957404604 BTC per hour.
1540 2011-02-27 17:01:04 <xelister> ;;bc,gend 630000 1000000
1541 2011-02-27 17:01:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 630000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1000000, is 0.633671879768 BTC per day and 0.0264029949903 BTC per hour.
1542 2011-02-27 17:02:06 <slush> ;;bc,gend 80000000 56000
1543 2011-02-27 17:02:06 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 80000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 56000, is 1436.89768655 BTC per day and 59.8707369396 BTC per hour.
1544 2011-02-27 17:02:35 bk128 has joined
1545 2011-02-27 17:05:00 <genjix> mysql syntax is so random
1546 2011-02-27 17:05:12 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1547 2011-02-27 17:08:05 <xelister> Note: at the time of this writing, it is expected that a future version of Bitcoin will not allow an account to be named *
1548 2011-02-27 17:08:06 <xelister> what?
1549 2011-02-27 17:08:33 <BlueMatt> where is that from?
1550 2011-02-27 17:10:34 <xelister> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained
1551 2011-02-27 17:11:05 <BlueMatt> Wanna fix that?
1552 2011-02-27 17:11:23 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1553 2011-02-27 17:12:05 <xelister> BlueMatt: well, you say it was a wandalisation of page? or that developers are in fact planning to do that
1554 2011-02-27 17:12:40 echelon has joined
1555 2011-02-27 17:14:17 antivigilante has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1556 2011-02-27 17:15:18 <BlueMatt> ...you can name accounts
1557 2011-02-27 17:16:31 larsig has joined
1558 2011-02-27 17:16:45 antivigilante has joined
1559 2011-02-27 17:17:45 antivigilante has left ()
1560 2011-02-27 17:18:26 <BlueMatt> maybe change to accounts can be named with arbitrary... and remove the note?
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1565 2011-02-27 17:28:41 <presence> whats the current difficulty?
1566 2011-02-27 17:28:53 <presence> ;;bc,stats
1567 2011-02-27 17:28:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110934 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 1961 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 23 hours, 38 minutes, and 44 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 70229.77287220
1568 2011-02-27 17:29:43 <presence> I was way over the average last week :(
1569 2011-02-27 17:41:21 towerX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1570 2011-02-27 17:43:17 foucist has joined
1571 2011-02-27 17:44:07 <foucist> hey guys what's the best document that explains everything i need to know to code the sha-256 & bitcoin mining stuff?
1572 2011-02-27 17:44:12 <foucist> is there a white paper that covers most of it?
1573 2011-02-27 17:44:15 <foucist> tcatm: ^
1574 2011-02-27 17:44:55 <tcatm> the source (main.cpp) around BitcoinMiner
1575 2011-02-27 17:46:32 <foucist> tcatm: i guess i'm specifically interested in solving the exact problem that requires the parallelization (the sha-256 hashing) and don't want to worry about the rest of the bitcoin mining stuff
1576 2011-02-27 17:47:15 <rlifchitz> or the full python implementation: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3546.0;all
1577 2011-02-27 17:47:19 <bk128> look at the opencl core and the fips standard on sha 2?
1578 2011-02-27 17:47:21 <rlifchitz> which is much simpler
1579 2011-02-27 17:47:25 <bk128> opencl kernel*
1580 2011-02-27 17:47:32 <xelister> bk128: indeed
1581 2011-02-27 17:47:35 <rlifchitz> foucist: have a look
1582 2011-02-27 17:47:46 <xelister> bk128: miners run only sha-rounds like 4..52 on the CL right?
1583 2011-02-27 17:47:53 <xelister> wouldnt it be faster to run all on cl
1584 2011-02-27 17:48:06 <bk128> http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips180-3/fips180-3_final.pdf
1585 2011-02-27 17:48:52 <xelister> btw, anyone here uses freenet? guys?
1586 2011-02-27 17:48:55 <tcatm> xelister: nope. the other rounds (not sure about the range 4..52, though) aren't even needed or only calculated once
1587 2011-02-27 17:49:04 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1588 2011-02-27 17:49:15 <nextgens> is there a good cuda miner?
1589 2011-02-27 17:49:36 <molecular> xelister, yes ;)
1590 2011-02-27 17:49:36 <nextgens> or is the opencl one recommended even on nvidia?
1591 2011-02-27 17:49:55 <tcatm> nvidia isn't recommended for mining
1592 2011-02-27 17:49:55 <xelister> tcatm: one? once per nonce or once per other non-nonce data (data/markle root/ntime) ?
1593 2011-02-27 17:50:07 <tcatm> once per block
1594 2011-02-27 17:50:15 <xelister> nvidia IS recommended for not sucking cocks on desktop usage, as ati does =)
1595 2011-02-27 17:50:24 <xelister> but for mining - go redeon
1596 2011-02-27 17:50:45 <xelister> tcatm: once per new previous block?
1597 2011-02-27 17:51:05 <xelister> nextgens: no, CUDA sucks donkey balls. All miners use OpenCL
1598 2011-02-27 17:51:13 <sipa> rounds 3..63 of the second block of first step, and rounds 0..60 of the only block for the second step
1599 2011-02-27 17:51:13 <tcatm> xelister: no
1600 2011-02-27 17:51:22 <xelister> which works on both nvidia (cuda) and radeon (ati stream)
1601 2011-02-27 17:51:42 <tcatm> once per block == once per getwork
1602 2011-02-27 17:51:59 <xelister> tcatm: now you are making more sense :) thanks
1603 2011-02-27 17:52:26 <xelister> so which of getwork's data are affected at all by the 0..3 rounds? ntime? markle?
1604 2011-02-27 17:52:47 <nextgens> xelister> nvidia's opencl used to sucks balls, has it improved?
1605 2011-02-27 17:52:57 <Diablo-D3> nextgens: it hasnt
1606 2011-02-27 17:53:03 <foucist> the fips standard onf sha 2 is good, is there something else that also explains the actual bitcoin mining algorithm with the sha2(sha2(header)) etc stuff?
1607 2011-02-27 17:53:08 <tcatm> xelister: everything except the nonce
1608 2011-02-27 17:53:14 <Diablo-D3> nextgens: although nvidia can run my miner now, they fixed that a few months back
1609 2011-02-27 17:53:18 <xelister> nextgens: well, mining works on nvidia. just x4 slower then same price radeon card
1610 2011-02-27 17:53:33 <foucist> is there a standard for the bitcoin mining algorithm written down somewhere aside from source code heh
1611 2011-02-27 17:53:33 <Diablo-D3> the hardware still sucks utter dick on integer performance though
1612 2011-02-27 17:53:38 <nextgens> xelister> still. I have nvidia's, not radeons
1613 2011-02-27 17:53:55 <Diablo-D3> foucist: erm? its just sha256(sha256(header)), and start counting bits
1614 2011-02-27 17:54:10 <xelister> foucist: well it is really simple, just increment the part of header data (the nonce) and that is all
1615 2011-02-27 17:54:41 <tcatm> foucist: while(1) {hashblock, if hash <= target -> break}
1616 2011-02-27 17:55:15 <tcatm> and increment nonce after every hashblock
1617 2011-02-27 17:55:15 <nextgens> Diablo-D3> and how good is your opencl fu? is your code optimized? :)
1618 2011-02-27 17:56:32 * nextgens looked at sha1 on opencl a while back
1619 2011-02-27 17:57:57 <Diablo-D3> nextgens: have you seen the kernel? its art's newest one
1620 2011-02-27 17:58:10 <Diablo-D3> it runs really fast on nvidia hardware
1621 2011-02-27 17:58:27 <Diablo-D3> because its basically hand optimized and doesnt leave anything up to the compiler
1622 2011-02-27 17:58:37 <Diablo-D3> so it short circuits nvidia's stupidity
1623 2011-02-27 18:00:40 <BlueMatt> where does one get such a kernel?
1624 2011-02-27 18:01:09 <sipa> by poking ArtForzZz
1625 2011-02-27 18:01:23 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: poke
1626 2011-02-27 18:01:28 <nextgens> https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/blob/master/src/main/resources/DiabloMiner.cl ?
1627 2011-02-27 18:01:36 <nextgens> hmmm
1628 2011-02-27 18:01:50 <sipa> yes, that's it
1629 2011-02-27 18:03:20 <BlueMatt> oh, so by newest kernel, he meant the one currently in diabloMiner
1630 2011-02-27 18:03:57 <sipa> yes
1631 2011-02-27 18:03:59 <pozic> How many bitcoins are available on the market?
1632 2011-02-27 18:04:06 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1633 2011-02-27 18:04:06 <gribble> 110936
1634 2011-02-27 18:04:09 <Diablo-D3> no, I meant the one currently in diablominer is art's newest
1635 2011-02-27 18:04:18 <pozic> That is, that you can actually buy.
1636 2011-02-27 18:04:36 <tcatm> pozic: 62663 on mtgox
1637 2011-02-27 18:04:37 <sipa> pozic: look at mtgox's market depth
1638 2011-02-27 18:04:45 <sipa> and other trading sites
1639 2011-02-27 18:04:45 <tcatm> (without dark pools)
1640 2011-02-27 18:05:05 <pozic> Do you have to do anything special if you want to buy over 600dollar?
1641 2011-02-27 18:05:19 <sipa> no
1642 2011-02-27 18:05:32 <sipa> or how do you mean?
1643 2011-02-27 18:05:39 <BlueMatt> but art uses a different one on his miners (with some special opcode which isnt in the spec iirc)
1644 2011-02-27 18:05:43 <pozic> I mean whether you have to report than to some agency.
1645 2011-02-27 18:05:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, but that's not written in opencl
1646 2011-02-27 18:06:03 <pozic> then*
1647 2011-02-27 18:06:18 <sipa> pozic: do you have to report it if you buy some other goods worth $600 ?
1648 2011-02-27 18:06:32 <pozic> sipa: if you buy stock, generally, yes.
1649 2011-02-27 18:06:44 <BlueMatt> pozic: its just like if you bought or sold some online good, not stock
1650 2011-02-27 18:06:53 <BlueMatt> its not officially a commodity
1651 2011-02-27 18:07:04 <sipa> and definitely not officially a currency
1652 2011-02-27 18:07:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, ok...so whats it written in then?
1653 2011-02-27 18:07:53 <sipa> CAL
1654 2011-02-27 18:12:49 bk128 has joined
1655 2011-02-27 18:12:57 tower has joined
1656 2011-02-27 18:15:33 tower is now known as towerX
1657 2011-02-27 18:16:38 u2time has joined
1658 2011-02-27 18:24:21 <luke-jr> sipa: who officially declares things a commodity?
1659 2011-02-27 18:24:56 <Diablo-D3> Your mom.
1660 2011-02-27 18:25:03 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1661 2011-02-27 18:25:13 <Diablo-D3> And the fucking dictionary declares it one
1662 2011-02-27 18:25:30 <BlueMatt> Id assume sec
1663 2011-02-27 18:25:31 <Diablo-D3> Do people want it? Are people selling it? Is there a limited amount? Ding! Its a commodity!
1664 2011-02-27 18:25:39 molecular has joined
1665 2011-02-27 18:25:47 <Diablo-D3> Its not a commodity traded on the stock market
1666 2011-02-27 18:26:12 <BlueMatt> but if you put it on your taxes, its not a commodity
1667 2011-02-27 18:26:15 <BlueMatt> its just a digital good
1668 2011-02-27 18:28:15 <Diablo-D3> not true
1669 2011-02-27 18:28:27 <Diablo-D3> do farmers not pay taxes? corn and pork are commodities.
1670 2011-02-27 18:28:49 <Diablo-D3> do people who scam others with commodities futures trading not pay taxes on their earnings?
1671 2011-02-27 18:28:56 <JunK-Y> that tilera CPU sounds great!
1672 2011-02-27 18:29:03 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: its retarded.
1673 2011-02-27 18:30:33 <BlueMatt> If you are going to do it legally, you pay tax on btc only when you sell it, otherwise you just calculate it as part of your "value" just as a farmer would his/her corn/pork or as anyone would their house/car/computer value
1674 2011-02-27 18:30:44 <JunK-Y> Diablo-D3: how come?
1675 2011-02-27 18:31:11 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: you pay the taxes on the sale price, not on the accrued value.
1676 2011-02-27 18:31:24 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: because it'll have low watt efficiency for what we do
1677 2011-02-27 18:31:30 <BlueMatt> I know, you pay the tax when you sell btc, otherwise its just part of your value
1678 2011-02-27 18:31:52 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: so even in wall street's definition of a commodity... its a commodity without the being on wallstreet part.
1679 2011-02-27 18:32:01 <JunK-Y> ok, but if we ignore the low-wattage aspect and talk about performances only?
1680 2011-02-27 18:32:21 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: pointless, its too small to compete with 5870s.
1681 2011-02-27 18:32:47 <JunK-Y> ya, but compare cpu with cpu. dont compare apple with orange.
1682 2011-02-27 18:32:57 <Diablo-D3> but why compare it to something thats already slow?
1683 2011-02-27 18:33:03 <JunK-Y> is it better or not than an i7 980 ?
1684 2011-02-27 18:33:48 <Diablo-D3> for an actual cpu task? who needs 1000 cores.
1685 2011-02-27 18:33:55 <BlueMatt> Diablo: you calculate it as a sale on your taxes just as anything (incl commodities) but no one outside of btc would call it a commodity
1686 2011-02-27 18:34:12 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: its a commodity by the english definition
1687 2011-02-27 18:34:20 <Diablo-D3> its limited, people want it, people are selling it.
1688 2011-02-27 18:34:32 <Diablo-D3> its obviously outside the realm of _anyone actually giving a fuck_
1689 2011-02-27 18:34:35 <JunK-Y> its not 1000, its 100.
1690 2011-02-27 18:34:39 <bk128> Diablo-D3: still making a pool?
1691 2011-02-27 18:35:06 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: fair enough
1692 2011-02-27 18:36:06 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: its going to be slower for our kind of tasks than a GP DSP
1693 2011-02-27 18:36:09 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1694 2011-02-27 18:36:12 <Diablo-D3> which is what GPUs are now
1695 2011-02-27 18:36:20 <xelister> well, Diablo-D3's sister could send her webcam feed to 100 users with separate encryption at once
1696 2011-02-27 18:36:28 <xelister> good usecase? <_<
1697 2011-02-27 18:37:51 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: 100 cores @ 55 watts? its going to be like MAYBE 15 mhash/sec
1698 2011-02-27 18:38:33 <Diablo-D3> JunK-Y: either that, or they're lying about how CPU-like their CPU is
1699 2011-02-27 18:38:39 Myckel has joined
1700 2011-02-27 18:38:53 <Diablo-D3> the company is going to go under before they get anywhere though
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1704 2011-02-27 18:46:44 <pozic> MTG| TRADE| 54.989 @ $0.91999
1705 2011-02-27 18:46:52 <pozic> What exactly does that mean?
1706 2011-02-27 18:47:41 <pozic> Is that <55 BTC which have been sold for 0.91999 dollar?
1707 2011-02-27 18:47:50 <Diablo-D3> yes.
1708 2011-02-27 18:47:55 <Diablo-D3> isnt it obvious?
1709 2011-02-27 18:48:09 <pozic> Diablo-D3: it could have been a factor 1000 more.
1710 2011-02-27 18:48:25 RazielZ has quit ()
1711 2011-02-27 18:48:35 <slush> or 50,58 dollars sold for 54.989 BTC :)
1712 2011-02-27 18:49:02 <slush> pozic: better said, it is not "sell", but "trade"
1713 2011-02-27 18:49:03 <tcatm> If it was factor 1000 more, the dot in 0.91999 wouldn't make sense
1714 2011-02-27 18:49:10 <Diablo-D3> slush: watch where the $ is
1715 2011-02-27 18:49:38 <slush> Diablo-D3: watch which number I'm writing :)
1716 2011-02-27 18:50:00 * Diablo-D3 puts the $ in his wallet
1717 2011-02-27 18:50:01 <slush> I'm just saying it does not necessary be "sell", just trade
1718 2011-02-27 18:50:06 <Diablo-D3> poof! it dissapeared like magic!
1719 2011-02-27 18:51:28 alkor has joined
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1723 2011-02-27 19:22:51 <andrewh> irc.sporksmoo.net
1724 2011-02-27 19:22:53 <andrewh> er
1725 2011-02-27 19:22:55 <andrewh> whoops
1726 2011-02-27 19:23:05 <andrewh> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3934.msg56178 - that's what i meant to paste
1727 2011-02-27 19:23:59 <EvanR_> mmmmmm i closed the bitcoin gui client and it segfaulted
1728 2011-02-27 19:24:18 <EvanR_> all my money is still there though
1729 2011-02-27 19:27:40 <eps> so compute4cash, that is a bitcoin pool right?
1730 2011-02-27 19:28:53 <nanotube> eps: yes
1731 2011-02-27 19:29:37 <BlueMatt> eps: that takes like 50% though
1732 2011-02-27 19:29:41 RichardG has quit (Quit: I:Lined)
1733 2011-02-27 19:29:46 <eps> i see
1734 2011-02-27 19:30:32 Lachesis has joined
1735 2011-02-27 19:37:51 <nanotube> BlueMatt: well, maybe less, with current difficulty (assuming they kept payout the same)
1736 2011-02-27 19:38:13 <BlueMatt> I doubt they will
1737 2011-02-27 19:40:54 TheKid has joined
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1742 2011-02-27 19:47:06 <nanotube> BlueMatt: We plan to maintain the current $0.20/WU fixed rate as an optional payment style through February but afterwards the variable rate will be the only option.
1743 2011-02-27 19:47:13 <nanotube> so i guess maybe for another couple of days :)
1744 2011-02-27 19:50:01 btcminer has joined
1745 2011-02-27 19:53:24 <btcminer> Hi all!!
1746 2011-02-27 19:53:44 <btcminer> i just put my mark on http://tradebitcoin.com/
1747 2011-02-27 19:55:41 <btcminer> seems to Tiago and I are the only ones in Latin America :)
1748 2011-02-27 19:57:06 u2time has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1754 2011-02-27 20:05:34 <dissipate> btcminer, i just put my mark on there too. looks like i'm the only one in san diego.
1755 2011-02-27 20:08:53 grondilu has joined
1756 2011-02-27 20:09:13 <grondilu> Guys, any help with my attempt to compute a hash in bash: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2461.msg56196#msg56196 ?
1757 2011-02-27 20:09:16 bk128-Droid has joined
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1759 2011-02-27 20:10:24 Myckel has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
1760 2011-02-27 20:10:57 <sipa> grondilu: i believe the numbers are encoded as little-endian
1761 2011-02-27 20:11:28 <grondilu> oh, really? each of them?
1762 2011-02-27 20:12:12 <sipa> so the hex number 0x12345678 would have to be converted to the hexadecimal "78563412"
1763 2011-02-27 20:12:26 <phantomcircuit> grondilu, most everything is little endian encoded, except network port numbers
1764 2011-02-27 20:12:33 <grondilu> ok I'll try that, thanks
1765 2011-02-27 20:16:22 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
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1776 2011-02-27 20:33:41 <foucist> dumb question.. can a bitcoin miner go and mine bitcoins without internet connection for years?
1777 2011-02-27 20:33:42 <hazek> Could someone please help me out? I visited http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/, gave it my address but didn't recieve anything yet
1778 2011-02-27 20:34:07 <foucist> how does a bitcoin miner know the dificulty has increased or decreased? is there a central server that is passing along information?
1779 2011-02-27 20:34:18 <foucist> i thought this was decentralized?
1780 2011-02-27 20:34:18 <hazek> when I searched my address in bitexplorer it came up with 0 hits
1781 2011-02-27 20:34:28 <BlueMatt> foucist: its calculated based on the time it took for the last bunch of blocks to be calculated
1782 2011-02-27 20:34:38 <BlueMatt> each block has a timestamp
1783 2011-02-27 20:34:44 <lfm> foucist: no you have to be online to mine
1784 2011-02-27 20:34:47 <tcatm> foucist: yes, but you need to have more computing power than the rest of the network to take over the other chain once you restore internet connection
1785 2011-02-27 20:34:47 <BlueMatt> hazek: it could take a while
1786 2011-02-27 20:35:31 <phantomcircuit> foucist, you could do that but it wouldn't be very useful since the network would reject the blocks quickly
1787 2011-02-27 20:35:31 <hazek> BlueMatt: It's already taking like 2hours at least
1788 2011-02-27 20:35:44 <lfm> the difficulty is recalculated every 2016 block, the same way by everyone
1789 2011-02-27 20:35:49 <BlueMatt> oh, well it should have appeared by now
1790 2011-02-27 20:35:50 <foucist> how do you get the timestamps/blocks from the network?
1791 2011-02-27 20:36:02 <foucist> how do you know when X blocks have been finished?
1792 2011-02-27 20:36:06 <BlueMatt> when you dl a block it has a timestamp in it
1793 2011-02-27 20:36:19 <foucist> where does the bitcoin miner download blocks from?
1794 2011-02-27 20:36:24 <foucist> trhough the p2p system?
1795 2011-02-27 20:36:25 <lfm> foucist: run the bitcoin app. it does all the timestamps/block automatically
1796 2011-02-27 20:36:27 <BlueMatt> its a p2p network
1797 2011-02-27 20:36:29 <foucist> ok
1798 2011-02-27 20:37:30 <hazek> do I have to have "generate coins" on if I want my client to check for new blocks and varify the old ones?
1799 2011-02-27 20:37:38 <lfm> no
1800 2011-02-27 20:38:00 <sipa> foucist: the miner receives information about which transactions to put in a block by the client
1801 2011-02-27 20:38:07 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
1802 2011-02-27 20:38:37 <sipa> and searches for a good block header for them (not entirely true, it doesn't know the exact transactions, only their merkle root, but still)
1803 2011-02-27 20:38:47 <sipa> and if it finds one, it tells the client
1804 2011-02-27 20:38:58 <sipa> however, it needs to know which previous block to build upon
1805 2011-02-27 20:39:02 <hazek> BlueMatt: do you think the guy running that website is using long intervals between sending the coins to new people?
1806 2011-02-27 20:39:25 <BlueMatt> hazek: no idea, if it says "sent" you should get it pretty quick
1807 2011-02-27 20:39:26 <sipa> and since those are found every 10 minutes on average, you need at least to be online to receive those
1808 2011-02-27 20:40:05 <sipa> what tcatm says is true though - if you are so powerful that you can find enough (>50%) of the blocks yourself, you can just built upon only your own blocks
1809 2011-02-27 20:40:28 <hazek> wish I didn't close it so fast, now I can't remember exaclty what it said
1810 2011-02-27 20:40:42 <hazek> all it says now is that I already visited today and can't try again :P
1811 2011-02-27 20:41:00 <BlueMatt> then you should be fine
1812 2011-02-27 20:41:10 <BlueMatt> either just wait or you entered your address wrong
1813 2011-02-27 20:41:14 <hazek> actually it says this: According to my records, I sent 0.05 bitcoins today to somebody who came here with your IP address.
1814 2011-02-27 20:41:20 <dissipate> sipa, block generation has much been faster than one every 10 minutes
1815 2011-02-27 20:41:27 <hazek> yeah I think it might be the later
1816 2011-02-27 20:41:33 <hazek> although I c/ped it
1817 2011-02-27 20:41:36 <sipa> dissipate: yes i know, i'm simplifying things a bit :)
1818 2011-02-27 20:41:47 <BlueMatt> hazek: no idea always worked for me in the past
1819 2011-02-27 20:41:50 <dissipate> oh ok
1820 2011-02-27 20:42:13 <hazek> well that's ok, maybe my laptop gets lucky before next year :P
1821 2011-02-27 20:43:35 <hazek> how come there aren't more youtube videos about this currency tho
1822 2011-02-27 20:43:42 <lfm> most address errors should be detected automatically
1823 2011-02-27 20:43:48 <hazek> I feel like it's an amazing invention
1824 2011-02-27 20:43:56 <hazek> and it's not getting neough exposure
1825 2011-02-27 20:44:06 Slix` has joined
1826 2011-02-27 20:44:08 <lfm> its still new
1827 2011-02-27 20:44:40 <hazek> plus the US liberty community would really really appriciete it if they understood it sufficiently
1828 2011-02-27 20:44:49 <hazek> I'm certain of it
1829 2011-02-27 20:44:53 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1830 2011-02-27 20:45:04 <hazek> people in charge should make an effort to contact liberty minded sites
1831 2011-02-27 20:45:07 <hazek> present videos
1832 2011-02-27 20:45:09 skeledrew has joined
1833 2011-02-27 20:45:14 <hazek> oh and especially the mises.org people
1834 2011-02-27 20:45:29 <[Noodles]> people in charge?
1835 2011-02-27 20:45:30 <jrabbit> lol libertards.
1836 2011-02-27 20:45:37 <hazek> right lol
1837 2011-02-27 20:45:38 <hazek> nvm
1838 2011-02-27 20:45:48 <[Noodles]> that includes you, so do it
1839 2011-02-27 20:45:49 <dissipate> hazek, it's difficult to get people 'excited' about a currency that isn't accepted at that many places, unfortunately. :(
1840 2011-02-27 20:45:53 <hazek> forgot it was completely open source and decentralized for a second there
1841 2011-02-27 20:45:54 <hazek> :D
1842 2011-02-27 20:45:55 <lfm> they prolly feel like their getting spammed with bitcoin promotion already
1843 2011-02-27 20:46:01 TD has joined
1844 2011-02-27 20:46:27 <sipa> the only ones "in charge" are probably gavin and those operating bitcoin.org and bitcoin.it :)
1845 2011-02-27 20:46:37 <hazek> dissipate: i see your point but that issue goes both ways
1846 2011-02-27 20:47:32 <dissipate> hazek, actually, bitcoin has already had rapid growth. the economy size is already at $5 million in 2 years.
1847 2011-02-27 20:47:42 <hazek> I spent last night and almost my whole afternoon today reading about this currency
1848 2011-02-27 20:48:11 <dissipate> hazek, but you probably aren't the average user.
1849 2011-02-27 20:48:22 <hazek> I'm not?
1850 2011-02-27 20:48:37 <hazek> actually you're right I'm not!
1851 2011-02-27 20:48:47 <dissipate> i'm 'guessing' you aren't ;D
1852 2011-02-27 20:49:01 <hazek> many would turn away from having faith in it for lack of understanding
1853 2011-02-27 20:49:12 <dissipate> hazek, i've been trying to get the word out myself. i've told my friends and family about bitcoin and i wear a bitcoin tshirt to work etc.
1854 2011-02-27 20:49:13 <sipa> dissipate: "economy size" is not the same thing as market cap
1855 2011-02-27 20:49:21 <lfm> ;;bc,totalbc
1856 2011-02-27 20:49:22 <gribble> 5548000.00000000
1857 2011-02-27 20:49:24 riush has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1858 2011-02-27 20:49:28 <hazek> and I have to tell you it was pretty frustrating to hop between wikies and FAQs and youtube videos to finally have a good idea about how it all works
1859 2011-02-27 20:49:36 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1860 2011-02-27 20:49:37 <gribble> 110960
1861 2011-02-27 20:49:37 <dissipate> sipa, what do you mean?
1862 2011-02-27 20:49:52 <sipa> dissipate: market cap = money supply * price at which it is traded
1863 2011-02-27 20:49:53 <jrabbit> dissipate: oo bitcoin shirts? :P
1864 2011-02-27 20:50:11 <dissipate> jrabbit, yep. i have 1 tshirt with 2 more on the way
1865 2011-02-27 20:50:14 <sipa> dissipate: but that has nothing to do really with "size of the economy" (at least, it's not a meaningful number)
1866 2011-02-27 20:50:23 <hazek> dissipate: he means that just because there's 5mio bitcoins in existance and the current exchange rate is about .9 to 1 that doesn't mean it's net worth is $5 mio
1867 2011-02-27 20:50:32 <sipa> indeed
1868 2011-02-27 20:50:48 <sipa> effectively, this exchange rate is only valid for the current trade volume
1869 2011-02-27 20:50:55 <hazek> exactly
1870 2011-02-27 20:51:01 <hazek> for the current supply vs demand
1871 2011-02-27 20:51:05 <sipa> if people would try to sell or buy larger amounts, the price would drop or explode
1872 2011-02-27 20:51:05 <dissipate> sipa, i think it is a pretty good rough estimate. i understand that if everyone tried to sell their bitcoins at once they wouldn't get $5 million total.
1873 2011-02-27 20:51:07 riush has joined
1874 2011-02-27 20:51:08 <lfm> or the sum of the current offers to sell
1875 2011-02-27 20:51:12 <hazek> people are probably haording it atm
1876 2011-02-27 20:51:28 <BlueMatt> which is good for the price...
1877 2011-02-27 20:51:37 <dissipate> sipa, people look at market cap of companies to estimate their size all the time.
1878 2011-02-27 20:51:42 <hazek> yes it is
1879 2011-02-27 20:51:50 <sipa> yes, and i think it is stupid to do so :)
1880 2011-02-27 20:52:00 <sipa> but i'm no economist so i'll shut up
1881 2011-02-27 20:52:25 <dissipate> hazek, hoarding is fine for speculation/trading of the currency, but it's bad for the currency's purpose, which is to be used for buying and selling.
1882 2011-02-27 20:52:28 <foucist> sipa: tcatm: that's a bit worrying what if some government has been secretly hashing bitcoins on supercomputers for the last 2 years and is keeping ahead of the current network? :P
1883 2011-02-27 20:52:46 <sipa> foucist: we would know the moment they tried
1884 2011-02-27 20:52:56 <foucist> sipa: tried what?
1885 2011-02-27 20:52:57 <tcatm> foucist: we have blockhashes locked into the source code
1886 2011-02-27 20:53:03 <lfm> foucist: I think we might have noticed
1887 2011-02-27 20:53:24 <foucist> tcatm: but you said a person could be out of contact from the internet then reconnect & as long has they have more solved/more power then they win?
1888 2011-02-27 20:53:25 <dissipate> sipa, so the fact that Exxon an oil company has a market cap of hundreds of billions vs. a startup tech company having a market cap of $10 million is meaningless?
1889 2011-02-27 20:54:00 <hazek> dissipate: hoarding can only stop once you get "banks" lending bitcoins
1890 2011-02-27 20:54:12 <tcatm> foucist: yep, but with those lock-ins it's not that easy anymore
1891 2011-02-27 20:54:16 <hazek> per design people will only trade for dollars when they need them
1892 2011-02-27 20:54:21 <Ad0> is there a mock version of another bitcoin peer?
1893 2011-02-27 20:54:23 <dissipate> hazek, why is that?
1894 2011-02-27 20:54:31 <Ad0> so I can develop offline without hogging other clients etc
1895 2011-02-27 20:54:31 <hazek> why is which?
1896 2011-02-27 20:54:36 <sipa> Ad0: ?
1897 2011-02-27 20:54:43 <foucist> tcatm: ah ok
1898 2011-02-27 20:54:44 <dissipate> hazek, why do you need banks lending bitcoin?
1899 2011-02-27 20:54:46 <jrabbit> Ad0: testnet?
1900 2011-02-27 20:54:50 <lfm> Ad0: shouldnt be, you should get it from bitcoin.org
1901 2011-02-27 20:54:57 <Ad0> I was wondering if there were any .NET bitcoin clients written yet
1902 2011-02-27 20:55:14 bk128 has joined
1903 2011-02-27 20:55:23 <Ad0> yeah I just wanna find out if my protocol implementation is sound :)
1904 2011-02-27 20:55:40 <hazek> well because a commodity that is increasing in value will only circulate if you lend it with good enough interest rates
1905 2011-02-27 20:55:57 <lfm> Ad0: oh ya, there are "testnet" running you can play with like that
1906 2011-02-27 20:56:16 <Ad0> cool lfm !
1907 2011-02-27 20:56:18 <hazek> i mean sure there's going to be a small volume on daily small stuff
1908 2011-02-27 20:56:23 <hazek> but generally people will hoard it
1909 2011-02-27 20:56:26 <Ad0> I wish chrome got integrated bitcoin donation features
1910 2011-02-27 20:56:28 <hazek> it's like gold
1911 2011-02-27 20:56:29 <hazek> I own gold
1912 2011-02-27 20:56:32 <Ad0> or something like that
1913 2011-02-27 20:56:44 <hazek> and I'll use up all my dollars and euros before I'll sell my gold :)
1914 2011-02-27 20:56:44 <dissipate> hazek, i agree it would help the BTC economy
1915 2011-02-27 20:56:56 <Ad0> people hoard because it can't be easily exchanged
1916 2011-02-27 20:56:58 <lfm> Ad0: there are "buttons" you can add to web sites to accept bitcoin
1917 2011-02-27 20:57:00 <dissipate> hazek, but i'm not sure if it is necessary
1918 2011-02-27 20:57:23 <Ad0> yeah
1919 2011-02-27 20:57:34 <lfm> Ad0: its not very hard to exchange for most popular currencies
1920 2011-02-27 20:57:36 <hazek> it's not
1921 2011-02-27 20:57:40 <hazek> of course it isn't
1922 2011-02-27 20:57:46 <dissipate> hazek, that's only because it is much cheaper for you to spend dollars and euros vs. gold which has to be sold first
1923 2011-02-27 20:57:57 <hazek> no
1924 2011-02-27 20:58:09 <hazek> I keep my gold because of it's properties
1925 2011-02-27 20:58:21 <lfm> mainly dollars, euro and russian rubles
1926 2011-02-27 20:58:21 <jrabbit> Lol.
1927 2011-02-27 20:58:35 <Ad0> you can't tie visa to gold can you
1928 2011-02-27 20:58:40 <Ad0> or pay with gold in the counter
1929 2011-02-27 20:58:47 <hazek> sure I can't
1930 2011-02-27 20:58:49 <Ad0> but you can if y ou have visa with euros
1931 2011-02-27 20:58:51 <Ad0> or USD
1932 2011-02-27 20:58:55 <Ad0> you can buy shit anywhere
1933 2011-02-27 20:59:00 <hazek> but even if I could I'd spend my USD or EUR first
1934 2011-02-27 20:59:02 <dissipate> hazek, you keep it because it is inconvenient to spend
1935 2011-02-27 20:59:02 <lfm> Ad0: you can buy gold on your visa if you want
1936 2011-02-27 20:59:04 <hazek> before I'd use gold
1937 2011-02-27 20:59:10 <hazek> no not all
1938 2011-02-27 20:59:16 <hazek> i wouldn't spend it even if it was
1939 2011-02-27 20:59:27 <hazek> wait
1940 2011-02-27 20:59:31 <hazek> it's an economic law
1941 2011-02-27 20:59:36 <hazek> that explains this
1942 2011-02-27 20:59:37 <hazek> one sec
1943 2011-02-27 20:59:43 <Ad0> lfm: but then you are back in the fiat world
1944 2011-02-27 20:59:50 <dissipate> hazek, if the cost was the same to spend gold, you would put everything into gold and use that because it can't be inflated etc.
1945 2011-02-27 20:59:52 <Ad0> I am thinking of instant transaction from gold to payment via visa
1946 2011-02-27 21:00:06 <Ad0> like on the fly currency conversion
1947 2011-02-27 21:00:18 <hazek> In light of this, Greshamâs Law takes effect. Greshamâs Law states that bad money drives out good money. Meaning, if someone is forced to accept your bad money, it is to your advantage to pass it off, like a hot potato, in exchange for something of value. Any good money you have, you will hoard. Eventually, real money is driven out of circulation and under peopleâs mattresses, so to speak. In the absence of legal tender laws,
1948 2011-02-27 21:00:22 <bxc_> visa does that
1949 2011-02-27 21:00:24 <lfm> well visa doesnt work that way really I guess
1950 2011-02-27 21:00:29 <Ad0> yes hehe
1951 2011-02-27 21:00:30 <bxc_> i mean it can do any currency
1952 2011-02-27 21:00:38 <hazek> dissipate: yes you are right about thtat
1953 2011-02-27 21:00:39 <hazek> that
1954 2011-02-27 21:00:39 <Ad0> paypal should integrate with bitcoin! :)
1955 2011-02-27 21:00:51 <lfm> visa doesnt recognise bitcoin tho
1956 2011-02-27 21:00:55 <Ad0> hehe
1957 2011-02-27 21:01:10 <andrewh> wee
1958 2011-02-27 21:01:13 <andrewh> i have 5.1 in my room now
1959 2011-02-27 21:01:17 <lfm> paypal explicity forbids currency exchanges
1960 2011-02-27 21:01:18 <Ad0> would be awesome if visa could be tied to like goldmoney.com
1961 2011-02-27 21:01:22 <Ad0> and it was backed by my account there
1962 2011-02-27 21:01:24 <dissipate> hazek, it's not so much Gresham's Law as it is the Regression Theorem
1963 2011-02-27 21:01:27 <Ad0> or bitcoin
1964 2011-02-27 21:01:36 <hazek> what is that?
1965 2011-02-27 21:02:11 <Ad0> Gresham's law is an economic principle "which states that when government compulsorily overvalues one money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."[1] It is commonly stated as: "Bad money drives out good", but is more accurately stated: "Bad money drives out good if their exchange rate is set by law."
1966 2011-02-27 21:02:37 grondilu has joined
1967 2011-02-27 21:02:58 <dissipate> hazek, one sec ill get a link
1968 2011-02-27 21:03:00 <hazek> basically it explains why bitcoins are being hoarded :P
1969 2011-02-27 21:03:37 <lfm> I dont think there are any laws about bitcoin echange rates
1970 2011-02-27 21:03:58 <hazek> no but you can't pay your taxes in bitcoins can you?
1971 2011-02-27 21:04:06 <grondilu> still about http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2461.msg56196#msg56196 I think endianess doesn't matter since it is taken into account by xxd
1972 2011-02-27 21:04:14 <lfm> I cant pay my taxes in euro either
1973 2011-02-27 21:04:19 * bxc_ can
1974 2011-02-27 21:04:34 <grondilu> xxd does return little endian
1975 2011-02-27 21:04:39 <hazek> yeah but euros are just another bad money
1976 2011-02-27 21:04:52 <hazek> that constantly depriciates
1977 2011-02-27 21:04:54 <lfm> huh
1978 2011-02-27 21:05:06 <dissipate> hazek, check this out: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=583.0
1979 2011-02-27 21:05:19 <lfm> how is euro different from US dollars
1980 2011-02-27 21:05:30 <hazek> it 's not, that's my point
1981 2011-02-27 21:05:35 <hazek> dissipate: ty i will
1982 2011-02-27 21:05:36 <presence> hey guys, what settings for poclbm will make it possible to use it and the system at the same time (at a slower mining rate if necessary). It doesn't appear that -f 30 is helping
1983 2011-02-27 21:05:40 <lfm> they are freely traded tho
1984 2011-02-27 21:06:07 <pozic> There is no corporation printing money in Europe.
1985 2011-02-27 21:06:12 <hazek> yea but I have to pay my taxes in fiat money euros and you if you are an american have to pay in fiat money dollars
1986 2011-02-27 21:06:14 <lfm> presence: try -f 200 then maybe
1987 2011-02-27 21:06:17 <dissipate> hazek, regression theorem basically says that a particular money will only be accepted if it was based on goods that previously circulated as money. for instance, the U.S. dollar was originally a particular weight of gold or silver. if the U.S. government just printed paper (as lincoln did with the greenback), they wouldn't have been accepted initially.
1988 2011-02-27 21:06:24 <hazek> fiat money = bad money in Greshams law
1989 2011-02-27 21:06:32 <presence> ok, Ive tried -f50, and its stayed the same
1990 2011-02-27 21:06:36 <presence> but Ill keep upping it
1991 2011-02-27 21:07:09 <bxc_> dissipate: that bodes ill for bitcoin then?
1992 2011-02-27 21:07:33 <dissipate> bxc_, not according to this: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=583.0
1993 2011-02-27 21:07:41 <dissipate> bxc_, but i can see how it could be argued either way.
1994 2011-02-27 21:08:25 <lfm> bitcoin is based on the limited resource of compute power (ok it doesnt seem very limited but it really is)
1995 2011-02-27 21:08:25 <bxc_> yeah i don't see how that fits the regression theorem
1996 2011-02-27 21:08:36 <bxc_> lfm: but that compute power has no value to me
1997 2011-02-27 21:08:36 <dissipate> getting people to accept a new currency is not easy. it helps if you are a government with jurisdiction and the power to write legal tender laws etc. :D
1998 2011-02-27 21:08:45 <bxc_> lfm: its been spent already doing some other stuff
1999 2011-02-27 21:08:54 <lfm> bxc_: ok you get your computers for free?
2000 2011-02-27 21:09:06 <bxc_> lfm: no
2001 2011-02-27 21:09:13 <bxc_> lfm: but there's no value to me in you computing some shit last week
2002 2011-02-27 21:09:16 <dissipate> lfm, it is limited by computing power, yes, but ultimately it is based on what you can get for a bitcoin.
2003 2011-02-27 21:09:16 <lfm> then it has a value to you
2004 2011-02-27 21:09:32 <bxc_> lfm: it doesn't render my 3d graphics, or simulate my physics, or whatnot
2005 2011-02-27 21:09:43 <bxc_> lfm: the value comes from what i can spend a bitcoin on
2006 2011-02-27 21:09:55 <lfm> bxc_: those things have value to you too then
2007 2011-02-27 21:10:03 <sipa> grondilu: it is the mapping number -> bytes which needs to be done in little endian, and %x is big-endian
2008 2011-02-27 21:10:10 <sipa> xxd is the step after that
2009 2011-02-27 21:10:14 <sipa> which is fine
2010 2011-02-27 21:10:40 <hazek> dissipate: the regression law doesn't epxlain anything about why people would hoard bitcoins
2011 2011-02-27 21:10:45 <lfm> bxc_: you have a choice what you want to spend your compute power on, bitcoin or photoshop or whatever you want
2012 2011-02-27 21:11:27 <hazek> it just shows how money appears initially
2013 2011-02-27 21:11:31 amiller has joined
2014 2011-02-27 21:11:44 <bxc_> right but I cannot take a bitcoin and get the underlying asset
2015 2011-02-27 21:11:49 <bxc_> if that asset is compute power
2016 2011-02-27 21:11:54 <grondilu> I don't get it
2017 2011-02-27 21:11:55 <bxc_> its not freely exchangable both ways
2018 2011-02-27 21:11:57 <amiller> ;;buy 100 at 0.2 PPUSD
2019 2011-02-27 21:11:57 <gribble> Error: For identification purposes, you must have a freenode cloak to use the order system. See http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Using_bitcoin-otc for details.
2020 2011-02-27 21:12:11 amiller has quit (Client Quit)
2021 2011-02-27 21:12:41 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
2022 2011-02-27 21:12:44 <dissipate> hazek, what it basically means is that if people cannot easily exchange their bitcoins for some fiat currency, bitcoin will never circulate as a currency.
2023 2011-02-27 21:12:49 <presence> -f (or --framerate=) 200 makes no difference
2024 2011-02-27 21:12:53 <presence> its like its ignoring -f
2025 2011-02-27 21:13:09 <lfm> bxc_: you can buy new computers with bitcoin
2026 2011-02-27 21:13:23 <hazek> but hoarding doesn't mean that bitcoins aren't circulating as currency
2027 2011-02-27 21:13:41 <hazek> it just means that people rather stick on to bitcoins then other currencies they might posses
2028 2011-02-27 21:13:42 amiller has joined
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2030 2011-02-27 21:13:52 <dissipate> hazek, think of it this way. in an emerging bitcoin economy, bitcoins may not buy me everything i need at a particular time. if i'm a merchant and i need to pay my electric bill, i probably don't want bitcoins.
2031 2011-02-27 21:14:14 <lfm> they are convertable
2032 2011-02-27 21:14:14 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: no
2033 2011-02-27 21:14:22 <Diablo-D3> dissipate: because you just exchange your btc for usd
2034 2011-02-27 21:14:30 <presence> should -f change the rate of processing?
2035 2011-02-27 21:14:32 <Diablo-D3> its no different than companies along the US/CDN border
2036 2011-02-27 21:14:37 <Diablo-D3> presence: no
2037 2011-02-27 21:14:44 <Diablo-D3> presence: it changes desktop interactivity
2038 2011-02-27 21:14:54 <Diablo-D3> presence: -f 1 will absolutely shit on your desktop
2039 2011-02-27 21:14:56 <presence> ok, but it doesnt seem to be changing that
2040 2011-02-27 21:14:57 <lfm> presence: maybe a bit, depends what else you are doing on the system
2041 2011-02-27 21:14:59 <Diablo-D3> presence: -f 1000 is as fast as it get
2042 2011-02-27 21:15:06 <Diablo-D3> presence: you need to do it basically 60 at a time to see any effect
2043 2011-02-27 21:15:08 <dissipate> Diablo-D3, that's my point. as i said above, bitcoins have a much higher chance of circulating if they can easily be exchanged for fiat. currently they are not that easy to convert to or from fiat.
2044 2011-02-27 21:15:08 <presence> Im doing -f 1000 and it makes no difference
2045 2011-02-27 21:15:22 <Diablo-D3> presence: are you on nvidia?
2046 2011-02-27 21:15:26 <presence> its still as laggy as it was with -f 30
2047 2011-02-27 21:15:28 <TD> dissipate: it's getting a lot easier
2048 2011-02-27 21:15:34 <hazek> dissipate: I thougth it was easy to exchange them
2049 2011-02-27 21:15:35 <presence> no, Im on ati
2050 2011-02-27 21:15:39 <TD> dissipate: coinpal and coincard are helping a lot
2051 2011-02-27 21:15:40 <hazek> am I missing something?
2052 2011-02-27 21:15:49 <lfm> dissipate: not that hard to exchange either
2053 2011-02-27 21:15:54 <Diablo-D3> presence: weird, for everyone else in the known universe, -f 1000 is like its not running at all
2054 2011-02-27 21:15:56 <Diablo-D3> presence: what OS?
2055 2011-02-27 21:16:03 <presence> windows xp
2056 2011-02-27 21:16:09 <Diablo-D3> presence: what driver version?
2057 2011-02-27 21:16:09 <dissipate> hazek, as far as i can tell there are fees and fraud possibilities. :(
2058 2011-02-27 21:16:17 <presence> 10.11
2059 2011-02-27 21:16:21 <Diablo-D3> presence: what sdk?
2060 2011-02-27 21:16:28 <lfm> presence: how much ram in system?
2061 2011-02-27 21:16:36 <Diablo-D3> lfm: Ill ram your system.
2062 2011-02-27 21:16:49 <lfm> you would too
2063 2011-02-27 21:16:51 <hazek> fees are normal, you pay them anytime you converty anything to anything
2064 2011-02-27 21:16:52 <dissipate> TD, that's cool. i hope it gets even easier.
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2066 2011-02-27 21:16:54 <hazek> fraud?
2067 2011-02-27 21:17:18 <Diablo-D3> presence: because if you're on 10.11 + 2.1, and your miner isnt consuming all your cpu time and your soul, there should be zero issues
2068 2011-02-27 21:17:22 <Diablo-D3> presence: whos miner are you using?
2069 2011-02-27 21:17:24 <TD> dissipate: hopefully so
2070 2011-02-27 21:17:37 <dissipate> hazek, if i sell you bitcoins for paypal, you have up to 180 days to reverse the transaction, but bitcoin spends are irreversible.
2071 2011-02-27 21:17:42 <bxc_> the longterm model for bitcoin has fees in it too
2072 2011-02-27 21:17:55 <hazek> hmmmm
2073 2011-02-27 21:18:06 luke-jr has joined
2074 2011-02-27 21:18:11 <hazek> that is a problem
2075 2011-02-27 21:18:17 <hazek> TD do you know a way around it?
2076 2011-02-27 21:18:18 <dissipate> i think bitcoin is doing damn well considering all these obstacles though.
2077 2011-02-27 21:18:27 <lfm> I suspect fees will always be optional
2078 2011-02-27 21:18:38 <luke-jr> lfm: "optional"
2079 2011-02-27 21:18:40 <dissipate> hazek, in my opinion the solution is local traders
2080 2011-02-27 21:18:55 <TD> a combination of anti-fraud checks, reputation and additional fees to cover the fraud risk
2081 2011-02-27 21:19:06 <TD> that's how all internet merchants do it
2082 2011-02-27 21:19:10 <hazek> what about escrow?
2083 2011-02-27 21:19:22 <dissipate> hazek, if i can buy and sell bitcoins at my local internet cafe, the fraud problem is lessened.
2084 2011-02-27 21:19:24 <lfm> then you have to trust the escrow
2085 2011-02-27 21:19:30 <TD> what about it? the seller has to send you the coins at some point
2086 2011-02-27 21:19:39 <TD> nobody wants to buy coins then wait three months
2087 2011-02-27 21:19:42 <luke-jr> hazek: then you wait 180 days for the escrow to release?
2088 2011-02-27 21:19:44 <dissipate> hazek, real escrow is expensive. someone has to manually verify the transaction.
2089 2011-02-27 21:19:57 <hazek> ah right, what was I thinking :P
2090 2011-02-27 21:20:27 <dissipate> i can see an escrow for high value items being bought and sold by anonymous buyers and sellers where the escrow takes a percent.
2091 2011-02-27 21:20:30 <hazek> man that's a major bumer
2092 2011-02-27 21:20:46 <luke-jr> I concur with local trading solving the problem
2093 2011-02-27 21:21:10 <bxc_> reputation will be good in the long term, it hink
2094 2011-02-27 21:21:12 <luke-jr> this is why I am willing to sell bitcoins in person, in the north Tampa area
2095 2011-02-27 21:21:20 <dissipate> yep. tradebitcoin.com is a great start
2096 2011-02-27 21:22:06 <dissipate> luke-jr, i don't see you on the bitcoin local map
2097 2011-02-27 21:22:14 <luke-jr> dissipate: I don't see a bitcoin local map.
2098 2011-02-27 21:22:48 <dissipate> luke-jr, http://tradebitcoin.com/
2099 2011-02-27 21:23:15 <dissipate> i just put myself up there
2100 2011-02-27 21:24:29 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, that's a genuinely good idea
2101 2011-02-27 21:24:31 <phantomcircuit> or bad one
2102 2011-02-27 21:24:33 <phantomcircuit> i cant decide
2103 2011-02-27 21:24:43 <hazek> I have a better one I think
2104 2011-02-27 21:24:44 <dissipate> why bad?
2105 2011-02-27 21:24:45 <gasteve> escrow in BTC could become very important...one of the attractions of BTC is the instant, irrevocable transfer, but for some transactions that can be a negative...I could imagine escrow being used in a standard way by merchants...a merchant would open an account with the escrow service, then consumers would pay the escrow rather than the merchant directly...there would be some policy (escrow for 30 days, etc) that would give the buyer some abili
2106 2011-02-27 21:24:45 <gasteve> get their money back if they are unhappy in some way with the transaction...this would let people buy from merchants they're not sure they should fully trust should something go wrong
2107 2011-02-27 21:25:06 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, telling people you'll act as a bank is probably not a great plan
2108 2011-02-27 21:25:41 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, who said anything about acting as a bank??
2109 2011-02-27 21:25:44 <phantomcircuit> gasteve, escrow is actually built into bitcoin, but not yet implemented in any client
2110 2011-02-27 21:25:47 <phantomcircuit> (that i know of)
2111 2011-02-27 21:25:58 <luke-jr> dissipate: fixed
2112 2011-02-27 21:25:59 <hazek> have you guys considered: http://www.paysafecard.com
2113 2011-02-27 21:25:59 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, trading currencies is a banking activity
2114 2011-02-27 21:26:00 <gasteve> really? how does it work?
2115 2011-02-27 21:26:02 <dissipate> it is? news to me
2116 2011-02-27 21:26:29 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, not really. banking is generally considered to be associated with lending and fractional reserves.
2117 2011-02-27 21:26:37 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: Bitcoin is a commodity, not a currency.
2118 2011-02-27 21:26:46 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, ok then
2119 2011-02-27 21:26:47 <luke-jr> I don't recall gold dealers having banking licenses.
2120 2011-02-27 21:26:58 <dissipate> buying and selling bitcoin is no different than buying or selling gold
2121 2011-02-27 21:27:12 <hazek> yep
2122 2011-02-27 21:27:23 <dissipate> me advertising myself as a bitcoin trader is no different than posting an ad on craigslist that i have gold to sell.
2123 2011-02-27 21:27:35 <bxc_> well that was illegal in the US for a while
2124 2011-02-27 21:27:48 RG has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2125 2011-02-27 21:27:55 <dissipate> bxc_, true, but it is legal since about 1971 i believe
2126 2011-02-27 21:28:08 <gasteve> w while? try about 50 years!
2127 2011-02-27 21:28:58 <luke-jr> http://tradebitcoin.com/ needs a place to put comments on your balloon
2128 2011-02-27 21:29:48 <dissipate> luke-jr, i agree. for one thing it doesn't say who is buying and who is selling
2129 2011-02-27 21:29:56 <gasteve> (actually, gold was illegal to posses in bullion form for 41 years to be exact...and to think some people believe we live in a free country)
2130 2011-02-27 21:29:57 <hazek> so did anyone check out paysafecard?
2131 2011-02-27 21:30:38 <dissipate> gasteve, freedom ends at the exact time that people consider themselves a part of a 'country'
2132 2011-02-27 21:30:40 <hazek> Imagine you have an option to open an account
2133 2011-02-27 21:30:46 <hazek> on a bitcoin trading site
2134 2011-02-27 21:30:58 <hazek> you charge up that account with prepayed cards
2135 2011-02-27 21:31:07 <luke-jr> dissipate: nonsense
2136 2011-02-27 21:31:13 dirtyfilthy has joined
2137 2011-02-27 21:31:21 <hazek> and then you just trade user to user
2138 2011-02-27 21:31:30 <hazek> trades irewokable
2139 2011-02-27 21:31:35 <btcminer> hazek: prepayed card?
2140 2011-02-27 21:31:35 <dissipate> luke-jr, oh? let's debate in bitcoin-politics or bitcoin-talk
2141 2011-02-27 21:31:43 <btcminer> how get?
2142 2011-02-27 21:31:48 <luke-jr> no thx
2143 2011-02-27 21:31:53 <hazek> irrevocable
2144 2011-02-27 21:31:54 <dissipate> ok
2145 2011-02-27 21:32:02 <hazek> http://www.paysafecard.com
2146 2011-02-27 21:32:12 <phantomcircuit> hazek, prepaid credit cards *are* revokable
2147 2011-02-27 21:32:12 <hazek> btcminer chech that url
2148 2011-02-27 21:32:17 BlueMatt is now known as thisisntmyrealni
2149 2011-02-27 21:32:30 <hazek> this isn't, I don't think
2150 2011-02-27 21:32:34 RichardG has joined
2151 2011-02-27 21:32:34 <btcminer> hazek: checking...
2152 2011-02-27 21:32:35 thisisntmyrealni is now known as BlueMatt
2153 2011-02-27 21:33:07 <phantomcircuit> hazek, the cc processor faces the same maximum $50 liability issue, so indeed i guarantee you they'll be revokable
2154 2011-02-27 21:33:44 <hazek> sec
2155 2011-02-27 21:33:49 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, is that card based on credit card systems?
2156 2011-02-27 21:34:20 <phantomcircuit> When buying a paysafecard you get a 16-digit PIN printout that you can enter at the web shop of your choice.
2157 2011-02-27 21:34:23 <phantomcircuit> im guessing it is
2158 2011-02-27 21:35:53 <hazek> can't find anything in FAQ
2159 2011-02-27 21:35:54 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, it doesn't look like it is, i could be wrong though.
2160 2011-02-27 21:35:55 <hazek> damn it
2161 2011-02-27 21:36:03 <hazek> I used that service before
2162 2011-02-27 21:36:20 <hazek> I don't remember ever hearing or reading about an option to revoce my funds
2163 2011-02-27 21:36:24 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, looks like it operates similar to gift cards, where the balance is just stored in some computer database.
2164 2011-02-27 21:36:27 <btcminer> but, the PIN its lika a credit card number???, i dont understand
2165 2011-02-27 21:36:28 <hazek> I used it to charge up my poker account
2166 2011-02-27 21:36:39 <hazek> it's a 1 time use pin only
2167 2011-02-27 21:37:03 <dissipate> can anyone load this page? http://www.paysafecardgroup.com/en/home.html
2168 2011-02-27 21:37:16 <btcminer> hazek: but in your poker site, accept pins from paysafecard?
2169 2011-02-27 21:37:27 <phantomcircuit> hazek, you probably cannot revoke the funds, but the paysafe people probably can
2170 2011-02-27 21:37:28 <hazek> dissipate: i can..
2171 2011-02-27 21:37:46 <hazek> ok but why would they do it?
2172 2011-02-27 21:37:53 <btcminer> dissipate: yeah
2173 2011-02-27 21:38:14 <hazek> btcminer: i don't understand your question
2174 2011-02-27 21:38:43 <dissipate> hazek, i couldn't find any info on there are on dispute resolution. i'm guessing they don't have any and transactions can't be revoked.
2175 2011-02-27 21:38:55 <phantomcircuit> hazek, simple, you report the paysafe code as stolen, they potentially face a loss because you're limited to $50 liability, so they revoke the funds
2176 2011-02-27 21:39:01 <dissipate> hazek, i can't imagine a poker site running on money that can be charged back. :O
2177 2011-02-27 21:39:17 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, most of them do...
2178 2011-02-27 21:39:21 <hazek> phantomcircuit: that's not true
2179 2011-02-27 21:39:21 <btcminer> hazek: i mean the site where shop whit that card support that system
2180 2011-02-27 21:39:23 <dissipate> hazek, where on the site can you report stolen cards??
2181 2011-02-27 21:39:28 <hazek> phantomcircuit: you can't report it stolen
2182 2011-02-27 21:39:39 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, where can you report stolen cards??
2183 2011-02-27 21:40:05 <hazek> btcminer: yes they do, but that can't be hard to achieve
2184 2011-02-27 21:40:32 <phantomcircuit> dissipate, hazek they have a phone # in the TOS
2185 2011-02-27 21:41:14 <hazek> dissipate: I can't imagine poker sites would allow revocing funds either
2186 2011-02-27 21:41:20 <dissipate> phantomcircuit, here is an experiment. get a paysafe card, then call them up and claim it was stolen, see what happens.
2187 2011-02-27 21:41:26 <hazek> especially since the transfer was instant as soon as I entered the pins
2188 2011-02-27 21:42:18 <phantomcircuit> every business that accepts credit cards as payment is accepting revocable funds
2189 2011-02-27 21:42:27 <btcminer> I think its relative easy do a prepayed cards with BTC founds. And distributing localy
2190 2011-02-27 21:42:34 <phantomcircuit> indeed most of the economy is based on the vast majority of people legitimately purchasing things
2191 2011-02-27 21:42:39 <luke-jr> http://www.paysafecard.com/uk/business/paysafecard-for-webshops/acceptpaysafecard/
2192 2011-02-27 21:42:57 <hazek> ok phantomcurcuit, say I charge my poker account with my CC, I then play and lose my money and then I revoke the funds
2193 2011-02-27 21:43:01 <hazek> really?
2194 2011-02-27 21:43:05 <hazek> you think that's possible?
2195 2011-02-27 21:43:10 <dissipate> i found it
2196 2011-02-27 21:43:14 <phantomcircuit> hazek, yeah actually that's a pretty common scam
2197 2011-02-27 21:43:14 <dissipate> "paysafecard offers a well-known brand name and the benefit of no chargebacks."
2198 2011-02-27 21:43:24 <dissipate> http://www.paysafecard.com/uk/business-footer/faq/
2199 2011-02-27 21:43:30 <luke-jr> 100 % chargeback-free
2200 2011-02-27 21:43:31 <luke-jr> paysafecard is a prepaid payment method. For you, this means: no chargeback costs.
2201 2011-02-27 21:43:37 <phantomcircuit> hazek, it's a hazard of doing business
2202 2011-02-27 21:43:38 <hazek> there we go.
2203 2011-02-27 21:43:53 <hazek> phantomcircuit: sorry but you are wrong on this one
2204 2011-02-27 21:43:59 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, ok so pay them with a cc and then do a chargeback with it
2205 2011-02-27 21:44:09 <phantomcircuit> what're they gonna do about it?
2206 2011-02-27 21:44:29 <dissipate> so how easy would it be for a bitcoin exchange to accept paysafe??
2207 2011-02-27 21:44:45 kermit has joined
2208 2011-02-27 21:44:47 <hazek> phantomcircuit you can't buy a paysafecard with a CC
2209 2011-02-27 21:44:49 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: do they sell them online?
2210 2011-02-27 21:45:02 <hazek> dissipate: I imagine fairly easy!
2211 2011-02-27 21:45:09 <dissipate> luke-jr, i think they sell them in grocery stores
2212 2011-02-27 21:45:29 <hazek> they're not being sold online
2213 2011-02-27 21:45:32 <btcminer> yeah!, the magic thing its local distribution
2214 2011-02-27 21:45:58 <dissipate> http://www.paysafecard.com/us/buy/salesoutlets/
2215 2011-02-27 21:45:59 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, oh i get it, they make merchants eat the chargebacks
2216 2011-02-27 21:46:02 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, clever
2217 2011-02-27 21:46:15 <hazek> np np guys :) you're very welcome ;)
2218 2011-02-27 21:46:26 <hazek> (trying to be fake modest)
2219 2011-02-27 21:46:29 <phantomcircuit> yeah i was wrong, they simply force the chargeback problem onto the original merchant
2220 2011-02-27 21:46:39 <phantomcircuit> yay layers of abstraction
2221 2011-02-27 21:47:08 <dissipate> wow, i can get paysafe cards in a dozen places right near where i live.
2222 2011-02-27 21:47:37 <hazek> ok
2223 2011-02-27 21:47:40 <luke-jr> "paysafecard works exclusively with commercially registered companies, whose web shop is available online with a valid URL address. An exisiting VAT number or a certificate of exemption from the tax office are also required to begin cooperation. "
2224 2011-02-27 21:47:42 <dissipate> hazek, great find! i'm going to post this to the forums.
2225 2011-02-27 21:47:51 <lfm> not available in Canada?
2226 2011-02-27 21:47:52 <hazek> who's going to let the bitcoin exchange people know about this?
2227 2011-02-27 21:47:55 <luke-jr> guess that means only UK
2228 2011-02-27 21:47:58 <btcminer> I dont, my country its unavailable
2229 2011-02-27 21:48:04 <dissipate> luke-jr, then how was that poker site accepting them??
2230 2011-02-27 21:48:10 <luke-jr> dissipate: I don't play poker.
2231 2011-02-27 21:48:16 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2232 2011-02-27 21:48:23 <dissipate> luke-jr, hazek was, with the paysafe cards
2233 2011-02-27 21:48:29 <hazek> dude! we have them in slovenia
2234 2011-02-27 21:48:35 <eps> how long does a "round" usually last?
2235 2011-02-27 21:48:40 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you're just looking at the UK site
2236 2011-02-27 21:48:41 <hazek> a god forsaken south central european 2mio people small country
2237 2011-02-27 21:48:50 <presence> Im going to have to get a dedicated box for this
2238 2011-02-27 21:48:51 <presence> fuck
2239 2011-02-27 21:49:01 <presence> sucks
2240 2011-02-27 21:49:05 <phantomcircuit> oh wrong again
2241 2011-02-27 21:49:07 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: the business site only exists in UK
2242 2011-02-27 21:49:12 <dissipate> luke-jr, that may not be a problem for a bitcoin exchange. set up an LLC and get a tax ID number.
2243 2011-02-27 21:49:37 <luke-jr> dissipate: tax ID != VAT
2244 2011-02-27 21:49:46 <lfm> presence: did you say how much ram in that box?
2245 2011-02-27 21:49:55 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, well VAT would always be 0
2246 2011-02-27 21:49:58 <presence> rpcminer-opencl sucks with ati, poclbm wont cut itself back in ui interruption
2247 2011-02-27 21:50:00 <phantomcircuit> you're not adding any value
2248 2011-02-27 21:50:01 <presence> 4G
2249 2011-02-27 21:50:14 <lfm> presence: ok 4g should be plenty
2250 2011-02-27 21:50:28 <presence> 3.5g due to 32bit limit
2251 2011-02-27 21:50:46 <presence> the odd thing
2252 2011-02-27 21:50:49 <phantomcircuit> i guess any fees charged would be VAT
2253 2011-02-27 21:50:50 <hazek> dissipate: let me know what the url of your post is
2254 2011-02-27 21:50:58 <presence> poclbm slows my primary pc down a little, but its tolerable
2255 2011-02-27 21:50:59 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: VAT doesn't exist outside UK
2256 2011-02-27 21:51:00 <hazek> in the forums I mean
2257 2011-02-27 21:51:02 <dissipate> luke-jr, it's accepted in 26 countries. there must be some way to set it up outside the UK.
2258 2011-02-27 21:51:04 <presence> just cant game, which I expect
2259 2011-02-27 21:51:07 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, germany :)
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2262 2011-02-27 21:51:10 doublec has joined
2263 2011-02-27 21:51:29 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: in any case, there is no such thing as VAT in the US
2264 2011-02-27 21:51:42 <phantomcircuit> true
2265 2011-02-27 21:51:58 <phantomcircuit> you can only do private transfers afaict
2266 2011-02-27 21:52:18 <gasteve> anyone know off hand whether the latest version of wxFormBuilder (3.1) will work with version of wxWidgets that bitcoin is using?
2267 2011-02-27 21:52:38 <dissipate> looks like a lot of people are already selling paysafe cards for bitcoin
2268 2011-02-27 21:52:43 <gasteve> (don't want to waste time trying to use this version if it's not going to work when I generate the cpp file)
2269 2011-02-27 21:53:32 <phantomcircuit> gasteve, bitcoin mainline uses 2.9, not sure about the formbuilder
2270 2011-02-27 21:53:34 <luke-jr> dissipate: but that's not by accepting them
2271 2011-02-27 21:53:37 <luke-jr> dissipate: it's by sharing the code
2272 2011-02-27 21:54:00 noagendamarket has joined
2273 2011-02-27 21:54:34 <hazek> dissipate: really?
2274 2011-02-27 21:55:01 <hazek> luke-jr: well that's one way to do it :)
2275 2011-02-27 21:55:16 <dissipate> hazek, search the forums for paysafe.
2276 2011-02-27 21:55:28 <dissipate> i'm still going to post to see if any exchangers accept paysafe.
2277 2011-02-27 21:56:21 <luke-jr> hazek: except for double spending
2278 2011-02-27 21:56:38 <hazek> ?
2279 2011-02-27 21:57:04 <lfm> so do they sell paysafe for btc?
2280 2011-02-27 21:57:14 <dissipate> looks like one guy is accepting paysafe: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1313.0
2281 2011-02-27 22:02:20 <dissipate> i posted about paysafe: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?board=5.0
2282 2011-02-27 22:02:54 <hazek> cool
2283 2011-02-27 22:02:58 <btcminer> dissipate: thanks for the links
2284 2011-02-27 22:03:02 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2285 2011-02-27 22:03:10 <hazek> I need to register so I can comment :P
2286 2011-02-27 22:03:19 phantomcircuit has joined
2287 2011-02-27 22:04:38 <dissipate> i would love it if i could go down to my local merchant, buy a paysafe card and use that to get BTC instantly.
2288 2011-02-27 22:06:19 <hazek> I'm having dinner right now, when I come back I'll try and figure out what does a business have to do in order to have a deal with paysafecard.com
2289 2011-02-27 22:06:21 <hazek> bbl
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2298 2011-02-27 22:11:07 <amiller> is it possible to run your own automated exchange that works like coinpal
2299 2011-02-27 22:11:27 [N00dles] is now known as [Noodles]
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2303 2011-02-27 22:11:37 <BlueMatt> yes
2304 2011-02-27 22:11:46 <BlueMatt> but youd have to write the software yourself
2305 2011-02-27 22:12:05 <amiller> is that not something that many people want to do?
2306 2011-02-27 22:12:08 <BlueMatt> which really wouldnt be too hard using an rpc backend (provided you know a cgi which handles rpc well)
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2323 2011-02-27 22:27:20 <hazek> back
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2327 2011-02-27 22:32:57 <btcminer> hazek: thanks for share about prepayed cards thing
2328 2011-02-27 22:33:22 sethsethseth has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
2329 2011-02-27 22:33:31 pogden has joined
2330 2011-02-27 22:33:32 <btcminer> hazek: maybe i can do things like that in my country
2331 2011-02-27 22:33:52 <hazek> you're very welcome, I really believe in bitcoins eventhough I only learned about it last night and I'm super happy if I can do anything to help it move along
2332 2011-02-27 22:34:16 <hazek> and if you're extra grateful -> 154d1tHrNioHQq1o9uzJXSWveqNdXn2Bnr
2333 2011-02-27 22:34:17 <hazek> ty ;)
2334 2011-02-27 22:34:48 <BlueMatt> hazek: email your favorite online-store and tell them about bitcoins ;)
2335 2011-02-27 22:35:04 <BlueMatt> its really the only way to get this thing *really* going
2336 2011-02-27 22:35:23 <hazek> thing is I don't buy anything online
2337 2011-02-27 22:35:25 <hazek> like ever
2338 2011-02-27 22:35:28 <hazek> :P
2339 2011-02-27 22:35:47 <BlueMatt> well then email a store you have heard of, doesnt really matter just get the word out there
2340 2011-02-27 22:35:48 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2341 2011-02-27 22:35:53 <hazek> right
2342 2011-02-27 22:35:55 <hazek> will do
2343 2011-02-27 22:36:52 <hazek> weee my very first transation
2344 2011-02-27 22:36:55 dissipate_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2345 2011-02-27 22:36:55 <hazek> ty very much :)
2346 2011-02-27 22:36:59 <luke-jr> hazek: yw
2347 2011-02-27 22:37:09 <luke-jr> hazek: your very first transaction is of TBC! :D
2348 2011-02-27 22:37:17 <luke-jr> you might be the first person to get TBC as your first tx!
2349 2011-02-27 22:37:20 echelon has joined
2350 2011-02-27 22:37:21 dissipate has joined
2351 2011-02-27 22:37:56 <hazek> nah, sorry.. just the very first BTC transation ;)
2352 2011-02-27 22:38:08 <luke-jr> hazek: I sent TBC, not BTC :P
2353 2011-02-27 22:38:10 dissipate has quit (Client Quit)
2354 2011-02-27 22:38:14 <hazek> erm?
2355 2011-02-27 22:38:19 <hazek> I'm confused
2356 2011-02-27 22:38:21 <BlueMatt> tonal - different numbering system
2357 2011-02-27 22:38:23 <luke-jr> figures
2358 2011-02-27 22:38:35 <BlueMatt> same coinage, different way of counting
2359 2011-02-27 22:38:43 dissipate has joined
2360 2011-02-27 22:38:45 <luke-jr> hazek: you received 10 TBC :p
2361 2011-02-27 22:38:48 <gasteve> could someone send me some bitcoins on the testnet? mgASjpVAHa4RU7uLRKW2P6wzmMsuF7YSAP
2362 2011-02-27 22:38:55 <hazek> ahh
2363 2011-02-27 22:38:56 <luke-jr> hazek: unless you're using Spesmilo, your client is just displaying it wrong
2364 2011-02-27 22:39:08 <hazek> right
2365 2011-02-27 22:39:11 <hazek> now I get it :P
2366 2011-02-27 22:39:15 <MT`AwAy> gasteve: http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/TEST/
2367 2011-02-27 22:39:29 <gasteve> ah...thx
2368 2011-02-27 22:39:40 <BlueMatt> hazek: wait what did you pay for 10 TBC?
2369 2011-02-27 22:39:56 <hazek> nothing
2370 2011-02-27 22:40:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ?
2371 2011-02-27 22:40:21 <hazek> he just want's me to read it backwards
2372 2011-02-27 22:40:23 <hazek> I think
2373 2011-02-27 22:40:24 <hazek> lol
2374 2011-02-27 22:40:28 <luke-jr> hazek: no :p
2375 2011-02-27 22:40:31 <hazek> LOL!
2376 2011-02-27 22:40:38 <luke-jr> hazek: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units
2377 2011-02-27 22:40:42 <hazek> ok i'm still very confused
2378 2011-02-27 22:40:50 <gasteve> is there a way to find out the difficulty in the GUI?
2379 2011-02-27 22:41:06 <sipa> not that i know of
2380 2011-02-27 22:41:07 <gasteve> or some other way for the testnet?
2381 2011-02-27 22:41:15 <sipa> getinfo
2382 2011-02-27 22:41:19 <sipa> the rpc call
2383 2011-02-27 22:41:22 <gasteve> thx
2384 2011-02-27 22:41:27 <BlueMatt> hazek: you got 10 TBC = 0.01048576 BTC
2385 2011-02-27 22:41:32 <sipa> it's around 3.5 i think
2386 2011-02-27 22:41:35 <hazek> right
2387 2011-02-27 22:41:37 <hazek> now I get it :P
2388 2011-02-27 22:41:46 <luke-jr> aka áµTBC
2389 2011-02-27 22:42:02 <gasteve> is there a command line rpc client that can be used to quickly test the RPC api
2390 2011-02-27 22:42:03 <gasteve> ?
2391 2011-02-27 22:42:15 <luke-jr> gasteve: bitcoind doubles as a RPC test
2392 2011-02-27 22:42:23 <luke-jr> gasteve: bitcoind getinfo
2393 2011-02-27 22:42:39 <gasteve> k
2394 2011-02-27 22:44:19 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2395 2011-02-27 22:44:40 foucist has left ()
2396 2011-02-27 22:45:38 <hazek> that's wierd as soon as you sent me 10 TBC I'm now waiting to get the 0.05 BTC confirmed from that website that gives them away for free
2397 2011-02-27 22:45:52 <hazek> at least I think that's from them
2398 2011-02-27 22:46:38 <lfm> weird
2399 2011-02-27 22:46:53 <amiller> i'm confused by the bitcoin gui and server - can i run the server all the time but only the gui when i want?
2400 2011-02-27 22:47:08 <amiller> as it is now, if i run bitcoind, i can't then run bitcoin and pop up the interface using the already running daemon
2401 2011-02-27 22:47:11 <amiller> or am i missing something obvious
2402 2011-02-27 22:47:14 <luke-jr> amiller: you can run the wallet ("server") 24/7, and use Spesmilo for a client ;)
2403 2011-02-27 22:47:43 <MacRohard> yea i don't think you can. there are some other guis you can use with the bitcoin daemon though.
2404 2011-02-27 22:47:59 <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/archive-tarball/tonal#.tar.gz
2405 2011-02-27 22:49:29 <lfm> amiller you can run the gui with the -server arg and switch between the two pretty easy
2406 2011-02-27 22:51:30 <amiller> lfm, if i'm already running bitcoind i'd have to stop it to run bitcoin -server, otherwise it complains about not being able to lock my bitcoin home folder
2407 2011-02-27 22:51:39 <lfm> yes
2408 2011-02-27 22:51:59 <amiller> if i'm understanding this right, it's beneficial to run a 'node' because it helps out by validating transactions, is that right?
2409 2011-02-27 22:52:13 <amiller> is running bitcoind enough to do that and participate?
2410 2011-02-27 22:52:31 <lfm> ya, they are the same to the newtwork
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2413 2011-02-27 22:54:03 <amiller> is there a way to tell what the bitcoin server has been doing, like to see how much it has been contributing by validating transactions
2414 2011-02-27 22:54:27 <hazek> it either validates or it doesn't
2415 2011-02-27 22:54:32 <hazek> there's no inbetween
2416 2011-02-27 22:54:41 <sipa> and the chance that it does is pretty small
2417 2011-02-27 22:55:02 <sipa> unless you're running a miner on a high-end graphics card
2418 2011-02-27 22:55:31 <hazek> but the more nodes there are the less likely it is for someone to muster enough CPU power to corrupt it
2419 2011-02-27 22:55:50 <hazek> in very very simple terms of course
2420 2011-02-27 22:55:56 <hazek> not that i fully understand
2421 2011-02-27 22:55:57 <hazek> :P
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2423 2011-02-27 22:56:43 <amiller> i thought that conceptually there were two different things a node could be doing, either validating/confirming other people's transactions, or mining for new bitcoins
2424 2011-02-27 22:56:48 <amiller> are those actually the same thing?
2425 2011-02-27 22:56:57 <MacRohard> well on newer versions it shows you the hash/sec it's doing
2426 2011-02-27 22:57:15 <lfm> hazek you could check out the debug.log file
2427 2011-02-27 22:57:16 <sipa> amiller: it's always verifying what it receives
2428 2011-02-27 22:57:23 <sipa> amiller: but that's not really contributing
2429 2011-02-27 22:57:37 <hazek> lfm: why
2430 2011-02-27 22:57:55 <MacRohard> do bitcoin getinfo and look at the hashespersec line
2431 2011-02-27 22:58:11 <lfm> a way to tell what the server is doing
2432 2011-02-27 22:58:19 <sipa> MacRohard: that number does not include hashes an external miner might be doing though
2433 2011-02-27 22:58:33 <MacRohard> sipa, well sure.
2434 2011-02-27 22:59:02 <amiller> so is mining the only way that i can use my computer to contribute?
2435 2011-02-27 22:59:19 <MacRohard> basically.
2436 2011-02-27 22:59:25 <amiller> if i wanted to help the tor network, for example, i'd run a relay - and i'd look at the bandwidth graph to see if i was participating
2437 2011-02-27 22:59:49 <sipa> amiller: if you have a very good network connection and a static IP, you might open up port 8333, and put that IP on the fallback nodes on the wiki
2438 2011-02-27 23:00:00 <sipa> that's also contributing to the network
2439 2011-02-27 23:00:02 <MacRohard> well running a node that doesn't firewall inboudn connections to port 8333 is somewhat useful
2440 2011-02-27 23:00:08 <MacRohard> yea
2441 2011-02-27 23:00:13 <lfm> amiller: run a web shop that accepts bitcoin
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2444 2011-02-27 23:06:06 <amiller> if i run a node with 8333 open and post it, is there a way to see how active it is
2445 2011-02-27 23:06:08 <amiller> does it save a log or a summary
2446 2011-02-27 23:06:19 <amiller> if i just run bitcoind
2447 2011-02-27 23:06:58 <sipa> there is debug.log
2448 2011-02-27 23:07:04 <sipa> but that's a bit cryptic
2449 2011-02-27 23:07:18 <MacRohard> amiller, bitcoin getinfo tells you how many people are connected
2450 2011-02-27 23:08:58 <lfm> if you run the gui it shows the current number of connections. if you run bitcoind the info command shows the number of connections
2451 2011-02-27 23:09:07 <lfm> info -> getinfo
2452 2011-02-27 23:09:08 <amiller> i see
2453 2011-02-27 23:09:36 <amiller> the bitcoin commands work great with bitcoind i have running, that's cool - i wish the gui would work like that too
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2455 2011-02-27 23:09:55 <sipa> amiller: you can run the GUI with the -server option
2456 2011-02-27 23:09:56 <andrewh> wee
2457 2011-02-27 23:10:06 <andrewh> compiling boost on mac :p
2458 2011-02-27 23:10:13 <sipa> that way, the rpc commands will work as well
2459 2011-02-27 23:10:20 <amiller> sipa, even when i run bitcoin -server, it says it can't get the lock because bitcoin is already running
2460 2011-02-27 23:10:32 <sipa> amiller: first quit the gui
2461 2011-02-27 23:10:41 <sipa> or stop bitcoind
2462 2011-02-27 23:10:55 <sipa> and then start the GUI (bitcoin) with -server
2463 2011-02-27 23:11:12 <lfm> amiller try "./bitcoind help"
2464 2011-02-27 23:11:37 dissipate has joined
2465 2011-02-27 23:11:41 <andrewh> noagendamarket: if you're around (and people are still doing this), could you change my bitcoin address on http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=922.0 to 1DuWQpJz5EmcvNqaNFvWe2tF7QczTQRD7w
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2468 2011-02-27 23:11:58 <amiller> sipa, then i'd also have to remember to start bitcoind again if i close the gui - the bitcoin command line tools do what i want without having to stop bitcoind
2469 2011-02-27 23:14:47 <andrewh> well boost and wxmac
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2471 2011-02-27 23:18:02 <sipa> amiller: true, it's a bit a bad design that they are so coupled
2472 2011-02-27 23:21:41 * luke-jr notes it isn't really a CLI tool, just a minimal test app basically
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2484 2011-02-27 23:48:38 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
2485 2011-02-27 23:48:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 110984 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 1911 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 7 hours, 53 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 72180.79661187
2486 2011-02-27 23:48:50 <luke-jr> O.O
2487 2011-02-27 23:48:53 <hazek> what does this mean: Status: 5/unconfirmed
2488 2011-02-27 23:49:08 <luke-jr> hazek: it means it's 5 levels deep in the block chain
2489 2011-02-27 23:49:34 <luke-jr> there's probably a 1% chance at most it gets reversed at that point.
2490 2011-02-27 23:49:46 <hazek> hmm
2491 2011-02-27 23:49:50 <dissipate> luke-jr, what's the chance at 6?
2492 2011-02-27 23:49:55 <hazek> so I don't actually have it yet?
2493 2011-02-27 23:50:10 <[Noodles]> you already have it at 0/unconfirmed
2494 2011-02-27 23:50:27 <doublec> wow, when did difficulty hit 55,000?
2495 2011-02-27 23:50:33 <sipa> doublec: sunday
2496 2011-02-27 23:50:42 <doublec> impressive
2497 2011-02-27 23:50:53 <luke-jr> dissipate: 0
2498 2011-02-27 23:51:07 <dissipate> doublec, it's going to go way up again on the next increase.
2499 2011-02-27 23:51:08 <hazek> [Noodles]: please explain ;P
2500 2011-02-27 23:51:17 <luke-jr> hazek: you have it at 0, but history is not yet written
2501 2011-02-27 23:51:30 <luke-jr> history is written at 1, but a competing history might still beat it
2502 2011-02-27 23:51:31 <sipa> if it keeps going up, it suppose it may even hit 80k
2503 2011-02-27 23:51:51 <luke-jr> sipa: it *is* Sudnay
2504 2011-02-27 23:51:58 <doublec> luke-jr: not where I am
2505 2011-02-27 23:51:58 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 265000 72180
2506 2011-02-27 23:51:58 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 265000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 72180, is 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes, and 31 seconds
2507 2011-02-27 23:52:00 <hazek> luke-jr: still don't get it :P
2508 2011-02-27 23:52:06 <[Noodles]> 5/unconfirmed just means, that there has been 5 new blocks created after your transactions made it into the blockchain
2509 2011-02-27 23:52:14 <sipa> in the same chain
2510 2011-02-27 23:52:24 <sipa> but sometimes multiple chains appear
2511 2011-02-27 23:52:29 <luke-jr> hazek: the bitcoin network is constantly writing a history of all coins. this is the block chain.
2512 2011-02-27 23:52:29 <sipa> and one wins sooner or later
2513 2011-02-27 23:52:50 <luke-jr> hazek: if two miners find a block at the same time, they have both written the next page
2514 2011-02-27 23:53:00 <luke-jr> but there can only be a single page 112895
2515 2011-02-27 23:53:08 <hazek> ok so the chain that my client sees atm doesn't have the transation in at least the last 5 blocks?
2516 2011-02-27 23:53:15 <luke-jr> so eventually one must win over the other
2517 2011-02-27 23:53:17 <sipa> hazek: it has it
2518 2011-02-27 23:53:34 <luke-jr> hazek: the history your client sees, has the tx 4 pages ago
2519 2011-02-27 23:53:40 <sipa> hazek: but it waits until enough "pages" (as luke-jr calls them) are written *after* the page that has your transaction
2520 2011-02-27 23:53:55 <sipa> hazek: since the more pages are written after it, the harder it is to change what came before
2521 2011-02-27 23:53:55 <luke-jr> hazek: which means someone would need to present the network with an alternative to those 5 pages to have a chance at undoing it
2522 2011-02-27 23:54:24 <luke-jr> by the time it reaches 6 pages, it is mathematically improbable that anyone could possibly have a competing history
2523 2011-02-27 23:54:42 <luke-jr> well, it's improbable at 2 even, but basically impossible at 6
2524 2011-02-27 23:54:48 <hazek> so although I already have the bitcoins and I can send them to someone else I could still lose them?
2525 2011-02-27 23:54:57 <luke-jr> hazek: there is a slight possibility
2526 2011-02-27 23:55:05 <sipa> unless someone has >50% of the network
2527 2011-02-27 23:55:12 <luke-jr> hazek: to undo it, someone would need to have a network on par with bitcoin, but not linked yet
2528 2011-02-27 23:55:18 <lfm> hazek: theoreticly the sun could burn out tommorow
2529 2011-02-27 23:55:19 <sipa> in that case they can create alternate chains of arbitrary length
2530 2011-02-27 23:55:24 <dissipate> can someone tell me how the hash verification scheme at probiwon.com works?
2531 2011-02-27 23:56:05 <gasteve> in the GUI...what is the difference between "All Transactions" and "Sent/Received"?
2532 2011-02-27 23:56:09 edcba has joined
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2534 2011-02-27 23:56:14 <hazek> well I don't know if you guys understand statistics
2535 2011-02-27 23:56:23 <hazek> but if you tell me there's a 1% chance it will happen
2536 2011-02-27 23:56:28 <tcatm> gasteve: All TX include generated coins
2537 2011-02-27 23:56:34 <hazek> I take it as if it actually will happen every 1 out of 100
2538 2011-02-27 23:56:35 <gasteve> ah
2539 2011-02-27 23:56:35 <luke-jr> hmm, found a bug in Spesmilo
2540 2011-02-27 23:56:39 <lfm> hazek: a 0.0000000000000000000000000001 % chance
2541 2011-02-27 23:56:43 <hazek> it's not if, but only when
2542 2011-02-27 23:56:45 <luke-jr> but it's basically impossible to fix thanks to stupid bitcoind JSON-RPC
2543 2011-02-27 23:56:51 <gasteve> no wonder those tabs were always the same for me ;)
2544 2011-02-27 23:57:01 <luke-jr> hazek: read the paper to get a reliable % :P
2545 2011-02-27 23:57:07 <[Noodles]> it's not a chance that it WILL happen, it's a chance that it CAN happen
2546 2011-02-27 23:57:28 <hazek> even if it's a 0.0000000000000000000000000001 % chance it's still going to happen eventually.
2547 2011-02-27 23:57:37 <luke-jr> hazek: it's going to be *able* to happen, at best
2548 2011-02-27 23:57:45 <luke-jr> hazek: someone would have to be *trying* to do it :p
2549 2011-02-27 23:57:46 <lfm> hazek: ya I will happen shortly after the sun burns out
2550 2011-02-27 23:57:46 <dissipate> hazek, we will all be long dead before it does
2551 2011-02-27 23:58:03 <edcba> dissipate: bitcoin too
2552 2011-02-27 23:58:04 <luke-jr> hazek: also, there is always a slight chance of a hash collision, destroying the entire network :P
2553 2011-02-27 23:58:07 <hazek> you guys don't get it
2554 2011-02-27 23:58:15 <[Noodles]> it only can happen, if someone is trying to rip you off
2555 2011-02-27 23:58:23 <dissipate> can someone tell me how the hash verification scheme works for the probiwon.com game?? i don't understand it.
2556 2011-02-27 23:58:25 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2557 2011-02-27 23:58:26 <edcba> anyway what problem is he talking about ?
2558 2011-02-27 23:58:59 <lfm> hazek: yes there is a negligible chance so what? its much more likely you will be hit by a falling meteorite. worry about that instead
2559 2011-02-27 23:59:12 <hazek> they were trying to explain to me why at one of my transactions it says: 5/ unconfirmed
2560 2011-02-27 23:59:15 <hazek> btw it's Status: 7 confirmations now
2561 2011-02-27 23:59:26 <luke-jr> hazek: it will count ad infinium
2562 2011-02-27 23:59:43 <hazek> lfm you don't get it
2563 2011-02-27 23:59:48 <hazek> as soon as there's a chance
2564 2011-02-27 23:59:49 <luke-jr> my first transaction has 10247 confirmations
2565 2011-02-27 23:59:52 <hazek> it will happen
2566 2011-02-27 23:59:56 <hazek> eventually
2567 2011-02-27 23:59:58 <lfm> yes, so