1 2011-03-08 00:00:01 <molecular> ye
   2 2011-03-08 00:00:02 <molecular> p
   3 2011-03-08 00:00:24 <cschneid> I've made 0.22 BTC today .... first day mining - working out ok
   4 2011-03-08 00:00:31 <cschneid> heh
   5 2011-03-08 00:00:48 <MagicalTux> when I first connected to bitcoin, I made 50 BTC in 2 days with my i7 cpu
   6 2011-03-08 00:00:52 <luke-jr> molecular: yeah, it should just come out and say "never"
   7 2011-03-08 00:01:00 cdecker has joined
   8 2011-03-08 00:01:08 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: in 10 years, it will be 1000 years…
   9 2011-03-08 00:01:12 <molecular> luke-jr, or maybe just not mention anything about mining
  10 2011-03-08 00:01:17 <luke-jr> molecular: that'd be best IMO
  11 2011-03-08 00:01:49 safenontoxic has joined
  12 2011-03-08 00:04:37 bitcoiner has joined
  13 2011-03-08 00:06:11 <xelister> Milleniuuuuums
  14 2011-03-08 00:06:25 <molecular> when I first connected to bitcoin, I thought the sh.t was broken after a couple of hours and left. Dude, should I have stayed! This was quite some time ago.
  15 2011-03-08 00:06:42 <molecular> Only came back almost a year later
  16 2011-03-08 00:06:48 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  17 2011-03-08 00:10:07 <xelister> noot: =)
  18 2011-03-08 00:10:09 <xelister> molecular:
  19 2011-03-08 00:10:27 <luke-jr> molecular: btw, are you new here?
  20 2011-03-08 00:10:34 <xelister> I joined with CPUs and decided it was too slow...
  21 2011-03-08 00:10:40 Slix` has joined
  22 2011-03-08 00:10:41 <xelister> should had stayed and right away use gpus.
  23 2011-03-08 00:10:45 <xelister> and buy gpus
  24 2011-03-08 00:10:47 <xelister> I would be rich.
  25 2011-03-08 00:10:51 <xelister> Whhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
  26 2011-03-08 00:11:12 <luke-jr> xelister: only if you wrote your own GPU miner probably
  27 2011-03-08 00:11:18 <cdecker> Just a heads up guys, the IRC Archive has some downtime due to the ISP having some scheduled maintenance
  28 2011-03-08 00:11:21 <luke-jr> and then diff would be way up fastr
  29 2011-03-08 00:11:51 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: I pinged you with a note re: theplanet.com DNS still round-robining wrong answers sometimes for mtgox, in #bitcoin-otc. just thought i'd let you know. :)
  30 2011-03-08 00:13:01 <bitcoiner> anyone has an idea why I cant retrieve json from mtgox when its https ?
  31 2011-03-08 00:13:43 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: maybe you don't trust its key?
  32 2011-03-08 00:13:58 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic, we're not using theplanet dns anymore
  33 2011-03-08 00:14:12 <bitcoiner> I can get the info via the web browser but with curl it dont work
  34 2011-03-08 00:14:34 <luke-jr> bitcoiner: your browser doesn't use the same trusted key db
  35 2011-03-08 00:14:47 <bitcoiner> mmm
  36 2011-03-08 00:14:53 <bitcoiner> so how do I fix that
  37 2011-03-08 00:15:30 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  38 2011-03-08 00:16:17 <molecular> luke-jr, yeah, i'm quite a noob. started hanging around after christmas, started mining mid january
  39 2011-03-08 00:16:42 yawniek has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  40 2011-03-08 00:17:00 <luke-jr> molecular: I seem to recall seeing you in another channel then
  41 2011-03-08 00:17:14 <molecular> bitcoin-related channel?
  42 2011-03-08 00:18:00 <luke-jr> dunno
  43 2011-03-08 00:18:08 <molecular> well, might be ;)
  44 2011-03-08 00:25:30 <xelister> luke-jr: I should had bought 5970's in 2010.
  45 2011-03-08 00:25:40 <xelister> luke-jr: like instantly when miner was published
  46 2011-03-08 00:25:50 altamic has joined
  47 2011-03-08 00:26:03 <xelister> well... but back then BTC was like @0.1 =)  who would have known.
  48 2011-03-08 00:30:02 <molecular> well, maybe people will be saying something similar about 2011
  49 2011-03-08 00:30:18 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  50 2011-03-08 00:30:20 <molecular> "should've mined at least one block in 2011, would be rich now" ;)
  51 2011-03-08 00:30:37 * molecular waits for 1 BTC == one bar of gold
  52 2011-03-08 00:32:20 <xelister> =)
  53 2011-03-08 00:33:01 <molecular> how much gold has ever been mined? anyone have a guess or way to find out?
  54 2011-03-08 00:33:44 <knotwork> 22meter cube or so of gold total I think i read someplace
  55 2011-03-08 00:33:52 <xelister> </random fact>
  56 2011-03-08 00:34:00 <xelister> knotwork: so little?
  57 2011-03-08 00:34:11 <knotwork> in grams its quite a few
  58 2011-03-08 00:34:16 <knotwork> gold is dense
  59 2011-03-08 00:34:17 <xelister> how much
  60 2011-03-08 00:34:21 * xelister wonders
  61 2011-03-08 00:34:22 <molecular> ah, that's a number, cool, that 22 million dm³ right?
  62 2011-03-08 00:34:32 <molecular> 22 million liters, actually?
  63 2011-03-08 00:34:36 <xelister> I wonder how much exists of $$$ worth in gold
  64 2011-03-08 00:34:43 hwolf has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  65 2011-03-08 00:34:55 <xelister> molecular: milions?
  66 2011-03-08 00:35:13 <molecular> 1 cubic m = how many litres
  67 2011-03-08 00:35:16 subpar has joined
  68 2011-03-08 00:35:16 <molecular> ah, damn
  69 2011-03-08 00:35:35 <molecular> 1 m³ = 1000 liters
  70 2011-03-08 00:36:38 <xelister> 19 kg per liter
  71 2011-03-08 00:37:06 <xelister> half milion kg
  72 2011-03-08 00:37:40 <molecular> ah, "22 meter qube" = 22³ qubic meters = 10648 qubic meters = 10.6 million liters
  73 2011-03-08 00:38:53 <xelister> 10.6 milion * 19.3 = 200 milion kg
  74 2011-03-08 00:38:59 <xelister> how much $$$ is that nowdays?
  75 2011-03-08 00:39:17 <xelister> and what part of USA totall eisting moeny is that ;)
  76 2011-03-08 00:39:31 <EvanR_> not much ;0
  77 2011-03-08 00:39:32 <EvanR_> ;)
  78 2011-03-08 00:39:36 <xelister> and what part of USA brutto income thing .. how it was called..
  79 2011-03-08 00:39:42 <xelister> EvanR_: =)
  80 2011-03-08 00:39:57 <molecular> 1 ounce = 28.94 grams
  81 2011-03-08 00:40:44 <molecular> 1 gram of gold = $50
  82 2011-03-08 00:41:23 <molecular> all gold == $10.000.000.000.000
  83 2011-03-08 00:41:42 <molecular> 10 trillion, there's a lot more in $
  84 2011-03-08 00:41:51 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  85 2011-03-08 00:42:02 <farzong> greetings ultrapal
  86 2011-03-08 00:42:19 <farzong> how can i see how much transaction volume per day there is going on
  87 2011-03-08 00:42:28 <xelister> when Im the king of the world
  88 2011-03-08 00:42:33 <xelister> I will gather old that gold
  89 2011-03-08 00:42:45 <xelister> and have it remolted into said 22 cubic m cube
  90 2011-03-08 00:42:50 <molecular> farzong, you can see transaction volume per block on blockexplorer.com
  91 2011-03-08 00:42:53 <xelister> that will be one hell of a badass cube.
  92 2011-03-08 00:43:12 <farzong> interesting
  93 2011-03-08 00:44:15 <molecular> xelister, one could the throw it in a lake and measure how much the lake rises to determine wether it's really all gold. heureka!
  94 2011-03-08 00:44:31 <molecular> *then
  95 2011-03-08 00:44:33 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: Oh! well that explains it then. :)  doh, sorry.
  96 2011-03-08 00:46:00 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic, I gave up on theplanet fixing their dns
  97 2011-03-08 00:46:22 hwolf has joined
  98 2011-03-08 00:46:22 <farzong> "latest strange transactions" hmm
  99 2011-03-08 00:46:46 <midnightmagic> MagicalTux: :) me too
 100 2011-03-08 00:47:21 <MagicalTux> midnightmagic, in fact the domain was pending transfer, so we couldn't change the dns servers unless we cancelled the transfer
 101 2011-03-08 00:47:28 <MagicalTux> (didn't expect theplanet to bug like that)
 102 2011-03-08 00:47:49 <midnightmagic> cool, no problem. :)
 103 2011-03-08 00:50:18 Mango-chan has joined
 104 2011-03-08 00:52:50 Slix` has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 105 2011-03-08 00:52:59 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 106 2011-03-08 00:53:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112613 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 282 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 3 hours, 39 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77728.74418604
 107 2011-03-08 00:53:17 <JFK911> owned
 108 2011-03-08 00:54:53 letharion has quit (Quit: leaving)
 109 2011-03-08 00:55:36 <farzong> it would be cool to see a graph of daily transaction volume / avg. transaction size on something like freebase.com
 110 2011-03-08 00:57:09 cdecker has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 111 2011-03-08 00:57:29 <farzong> or factual.com
 112 2011-03-08 01:00:33 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 113 2011-03-08 01:00:43 <farzong> blockexplorer is awesome
 114 2011-03-08 01:02:58 echelon has joined
 115 2011-03-08 01:03:06 noagendamarket has joined
 116 2011-03-08 01:03:26 bk128 has joined
 117 2011-03-08 01:08:03 AmpEater has joined
 118 2011-03-08 01:13:11 <mizerydearia> wooooooooooo update http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2559.msg61443#msg61443
 119 2011-03-08 01:13:26 <mizerydearia> MASS AWAKENING INTRO
 120 2011-03-08 01:15:19 neptunepink has quit (Excess Flood)
 121 2011-03-08 01:15:35 purpleposeidon has joined
 122 2011-03-08 01:16:18 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 123 2011-03-08 01:16:42 molecular has joined
 124 2011-03-08 01:25:07 <jrabbit> Damn phonegap looked really cool until I realzied it was for "native" apps
 125 2011-03-08 01:25:12 <jrabbit> I guess I could still do it.
 126 2011-03-08 01:26:25 <keystroke> so are custom asics really worth it?
 127 2011-03-08 01:26:42 <midnightmagic> if you have to ask, then they aren't worth it for you. :-(
 128 2011-03-08 01:26:50 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 129 2011-03-08 01:26:54 <jrabbit> lol
 130 2011-03-08 01:26:57 <keystroke> haha good point
 131 2011-03-08 01:27:08 <keystroke> nah i did some of the math on bits per second for sha256
 132 2011-03-08 01:27:10 <midnightmagic> they're probably not worth it for me either..
 133 2011-03-08 01:27:25 <keystroke> but i was really wondering cause i read some forum posts which put my assumptions into question
 134 2011-03-08 01:27:37 <midnightmagic> links?
 135 2011-03-08 01:27:46 <keystroke> ah it was last night... artforz was writing in it
 136 2011-03-08 01:27:48 <keystroke> let me try to find :)
 137 2011-03-08 01:28:09 <keystroke> i got some quotes for ip cores today just for fun
 138 2011-03-08 01:28:25 <sipa> keystroke: 1 bitcoin hash per second = 960 bits of hashing per second
 139 2011-03-08 01:28:56 <sipa>  (assuming bitcoin hashing requires 120 sha rounds, and a normal 512 bit block requires 64 rounds(
 140 2011-03-08 01:29:08 <keystroke> thanks sipa :)
 141 2011-03-08 01:29:59 <sipa> that means a 5970 can actually do 67 GiB of sha256 hashing per second (though from many streams in parallel only)
 142 2011-03-08 01:30:35 <keystroke> i just started up a 5870
 143 2011-03-08 01:30:59 Cusipzzz has joined
 144 2011-03-08 01:31:01 <AmpEater> Oc it yet!
 145 2011-03-08 01:31:10 <AmpEater> ?
 146 2011-03-08 01:31:33 <AmpEater> Most are good for 900mhz
 147 2011-03-08 01:31:34 <keystroke> not yet
 148 2011-03-08 01:31:42 <keystroke> probably this week
 149 2011-03-08 01:31:42 <keystroke> neat :)
 150 2011-03-08 01:32:09 <keystroke> any special cooling needed?
 151 2011-03-08 01:32:14 <AmpEater> Nah
 152 2011-03-08 01:32:21 <AmpEater> Just max fan speed
 153 2011-03-08 01:32:22 kermit has joined
 154 2011-03-08 01:32:30 kermit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 155 2011-03-08 01:32:34 <AmpEater> As long as you have good setup thar is
 156 2011-03-08 01:32:42 kermit has joined
 157 2011-03-08 01:32:48 <AmpEater> Just watch the temp
 158 2011-03-08 01:33:35 <keystroke> thx AmpEater
 159 2011-03-08 01:33:57 <keystroke> maybe i'll get some more but single gpu mining will fall away soon
 160 2011-03-08 01:34:07 <keystroke> gotta watch that difficulty adjustment
 161 2011-03-08 01:34:17 ApertureScience has joined
 162 2011-03-08 01:34:18 <keystroke> i ran it on my cpu in jan 2009 and stopped after 2-3 weeks.... whoops :)
 163 2011-03-08 01:34:18 <AmpEater> Yeah, it's a bitch
 164 2011-03-08 01:34:29 <AmpEater> Lol
 165 2011-03-08 01:34:43 <AmpEater> Wish I had started early too
 166 2011-03-08 01:35:02 <keystroke> it'll be ok if bitcoins trade for oz. of gold :)
 167 2011-03-08 01:35:17 <luke-jr> how do I get my node in Fallback Nodes?
 168 2011-03-08 01:35:29 <sipa> on the wiki?
 169 2011-03-08 01:35:31 <luke-jr> yeah
 170 2011-03-08 01:35:49 <sipa> read the instructions at the bottom of the page
 171 2011-03-08 01:36:05 <AmpEater> I just built a couple rigs each with 1 5870 and 1 5970.....hoping difficulty stays level for a month or two
 172 2011-03-08 01:36:06 <AmpEater> Lol
 173 2011-03-08 01:36:12 <luke-jr> sipa: didn't work
 174 2011-03-08 01:36:19 <luke-jr> sipa: stupid bot removed it next revision
 175 2011-03-08 01:36:22 <subpar> AmpEater: heh
 176 2011-03-08 01:36:31 <MagicalTux> luke-jr, means you didn't apply the right format
 177 2011-03-08 01:36:35 <MagicalTux> or that your node wasn't up
 178 2011-03-08 01:36:39 <luke-jr> it's always up
 179 2011-03-08 01:36:44 <luke-jr> | nat.router.dashjr.org || Luke-Jr || 71.53.139.9 || {{Table Value No}} || {{Fallback Nodes/Node Up|version=Custom}} || 2011-03-02 17:00:03 || ?
 180 2011-03-08 01:36:45 <AmpEater> Or price skyrockets I guess
 181 2011-03-08 01:36:47 <MagicalTux> give me the ip, I'll add it for you
 182 2011-03-08 01:37:17 <MagicalTux> ok
 183 2011-03-08 01:37:18 <MagicalTux> I'll add it
 184 2011-03-08 01:37:28 <luke-jr> ty
 185 2011-03-08 01:37:41 <luke-jr> I split up https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Internet_services ; how does it look?
 186 2011-03-08 01:37:50 <MagicalTux> added
 187 2011-03-08 01:38:06 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: how will it know I run a custom version?
 188 2011-03-08 01:38:25 <MagicalTux> luke-jr, "custom version"?
 189 2011-03-08 01:38:29 <luke-jr> yes
 190 2011-03-08 01:38:33 <luke-jr> not a standard bitcoind
 191 2011-03-08 01:38:46 <MagicalTux> it'll show the /protocol/ version, not the software version
 192 2011-03-08 01:38:50 <luke-jr> oh
 193 2011-03-08 01:39:06 <MagicalTux> most people using nodes from there don't care about either, anyway
 194 2011-03-08 01:39:07 <luke-jr> there should maybe be a field for abnormal policies?
 195 2011-03-08 01:39:17 <MagicalTux> what are your policies?
 196 2011-03-08 01:39:43 <luke-jr> 1 TBC (0.00065536 BTC) per 512 bytes, simple fee
 197 2011-03-08 01:39:54 <luke-jr> non-standard tx allowed
 198 2011-03-08 01:40:37 <luke-jr> (I relay all, though)
 199 2011-03-08 01:40:40 <MagicalTux> I don't think "Fallback nodes" is the right page for that. Maybe we should add a "Non-standard miners" page, or something for people with custom rules
 200 2011-03-08 01:41:01 <luke-jr> hmm
 201 2011-03-08 01:41:23 <MagicalTux> "Fallback nodes" page is for people who want to limit connectivity of their bitcoind for specific reasons (ultra-restrictive firewall) and need reliable bitcoin nodes
 202 2011-03-08 01:41:36 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: btw, seen #bitcoin-watch ?
 203 2011-03-08 01:41:49 <MagicalTux> no
 204 2011-03-08 01:41:59 <luke-jr> it's a "unicorn puking rainbows"
 205 2011-03-08 01:44:12 <xelister> luke-jr: not possible to set black background?
 206 2011-03-08 01:44:19 <luke-jr> xelister: it does.
 207 2011-03-08 01:44:48 <xelister> [02:35] <xelister> ojacobson: well but MSI sounds really gay, it has MicroSoft in it
 208 2011-03-08 01:44:49 <xelister> [02:35] <ojacobson> xelister: You're deploying on Windows, dude.
 209 2011-03-08 01:44:50 <xelister> [02:35] <ojacobson> Also, use "gay" as a perjorative again and I'll ban you.
 210 2011-03-08 01:44:52 <xelister> [02:35] <xelister> nigger, please
 211 2011-03-08 01:44:54 <xelister> I wonder what will happen next.
 212 2011-03-08 01:45:15 <luke-jr> xelister: where?
 213 2011-03-08 01:45:25 <xelister> luke-jr: in your girlfriends bedroon
 214 2011-03-08 01:45:33 <luke-jr> xelister: Konversation is buggy-- it doesn't support bg colour codes
 215 2011-03-08 01:45:45 <luke-jr> xelister: should be able to set it to black globally though ☺
 216 2011-03-08 01:45:46 <xelister> luke-jr: oh
 217 2011-03-08 01:45:52 <xelister> yea
 218 2011-03-08 01:46:54 <xelister> would be nice if people would donate BTC to say package freenet into more user friendly form =)
 219 2011-03-08 01:47:08 subpar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 220 2011-03-08 01:47:11 <mizerydearia> xelister, oh?
 221 2011-03-08 01:48:13 <luke-jr> actually, it sounds like it's fixed for 1.4
 222 2011-03-08 01:48:14 <luke-jr> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91738
 223 2011-03-08 01:49:49 <xelister> mizerydearia: yeap it would be nice
 224 2011-03-08 01:50:34 <mizerydearia> xelister, I was asking kinda questioningly.  I didn't understand it.
 225 2011-03-08 01:50:36 sgornick has joined
 226 2011-03-08 01:50:42 <xelister> mizerydearia: which one?
 227 2011-03-08 01:50:50 <mizerydearia> <xelister> would be nice if people would donate BTC to say package freenet into more user friendly form =)
 228 2011-03-08 01:51:27 <mizerydearia> As in if freenet accepted bitcoin payments to do something?
 229 2011-03-08 01:52:11 <keystroke> anyone else feel like bitcoin is one of the most revolutionary tools ever developed... or am i just crazy :)
 230 2011-03-08 01:52:20 <luke-jr> keystroke: crazy.
 231 2011-03-08 01:52:24 <mizerydearia> I know most groups, organizations, etc do not accept or even know about bitcoin, and even if they do know or accept, it may be difficult to specifically indicate upon a particular request, bitcoin payment will occur
 232 2011-03-08 01:52:25 <keystroke> ;)
 233 2011-03-08 01:52:40 <mizerydearia> However, perhaps I could establish such capability from within witcoin.com site
 234 2011-03-08 01:52:41 <xelister> mizerydearia: freenet accepts BTC donations
 235 2011-03-08 01:52:46 <keystroke> that's what i thought
 236 2011-03-08 01:52:46 <mizerydearia> yeah
 237 2011-03-08 01:52:50 <xelister> mizerydearia: I would accept BTC to do freenet realted work
 238 2011-03-08 01:53:05 <mizerydearia> xelister, but would they specifically package freenet into more user friendly form for additional bitcoin donations?
 239 2011-03-08 01:53:07 <xelister> mizerydearia: I'm accepting now BTC with da2ce7 to implement our super cool bitcoin-over-freenet protocol
 240 2011-03-08 01:53:27 <luke-jr> who has 18XeA7NhqwW3Kqvxo481bQJhug5oKTaVKg and why does he keep getting 1 BTC tx?
 241 2011-03-08 01:53:28 <xelister> mizerydearia: I would in example package freenet nicer, for some BTCs
 242 2011-03-08 01:53:45 <xelister> luke-jr: your gf, I really like handjobs?
 243 2011-03-08 01:53:50 <mizerydearia> yeah, but where would you promote that for many people to notice so it garnishes much attention?
 244 2011-03-08 01:53:57 <xelister> mizerydearia: on forums?
 245 2011-03-08 01:54:04 <luke-jr> xelister: I don't have gf
 246 2011-03-08 01:54:05 <xelister> mizerydearia: btw did you seen bitcoin-over-freenet bounty?
 247 2011-03-08 01:54:09 <mizerydearia> I haven't
 248 2011-03-08 01:54:12 <xelister> luke-jr: :(
 249 2011-03-08 01:54:14 <da2ce7> hmm, it would be good to get some more pledges.
 250 2011-03-08 01:54:46 <xelister> da2ce7: I will ammend specyficaiton like tommorow, then lets make new forum post more promoted? and with clear like  350/1000 BTC rised, please donate in topic
 251 2011-03-08 01:55:00 <mizerydearia> Is there a site like kickstarter, but that allows for bounties to exist for various purposes?
 252 2011-03-08 01:55:03 * da2ce7 thinks that it is silly that everyone is so shy with donations.
 253 2011-03-08 01:55:05 <mizerydearia> with bitcoins
 254 2011-03-08 01:55:13 <noagendamarket> mizery no
 255 2011-03-08 01:55:14 <xelister> da2ce7: shy?
 256 2011-03-08 01:55:23 <mizerydearia> hmm
 257 2011-03-08 01:55:35 <da2ce7> xelister, maybe um just tightassed
 258 2011-03-08 01:55:43 <noagendamarket> there is no site that manages bounties
 259 2011-03-08 01:55:46 <da2ce7> *not in the good way
 260 2011-03-08 01:55:54 <noagendamarket> lawl
 261 2011-03-08 01:55:55 <mizerydearia> noagendamarket, Soon witcoin will ^_^
 262 2011-03-08 01:55:59 <xelister> da2ce7: hmm what do you mean :) ?  you mean that not enough yet people offered donation?
 263 2011-03-08 01:56:01 <noagendamarket> yay
 264 2011-03-08 01:56:05 <luke-jr> is 18XeA7NhqwW3Kqvxo481bQJhug5oKTaVKg = spammer?
 265 2011-03-08 01:56:29 l8XeA7NhqwW3Kqvx has joined
 266 2011-03-08 01:56:33 <da2ce7> xelister, yeah either not many people offed to donate.
 267 2011-03-08 01:56:35 * l8XeA7NhqwW3Kqvx spams luke-jr|otg 
 268 2011-03-08 01:56:40 * l8XeA7NhqwW3Kqvx also spams luke-jr
 269 2011-03-08 01:56:47 l8XeA7NhqwW3Kqvx has quit (Quit: leaving)
 270 2011-03-08 01:56:50 <da2ce7> or not many people care :(
 271 2011-03-08 01:57:22 <xelister> da2ce7: mizerydearia didnt now about BtcFn. link him :)
 272 2011-03-08 01:57:48 * mizerydearia has become linked to da2ce7 
 273 2011-03-08 01:58:00 <mizerydearia> ohnoes, I hope I am not involved in some sort of crime
 274 2011-03-08 01:58:05 <xelister> initiate borg assimilation
 275 2011-03-08 01:58:11 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2312.0
 276 2011-03-08 01:58:16 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 277 2011-03-08 01:58:25 <noagendamarket> lol
 278 2011-03-08 01:58:38 <luke-jr> yeah, 18XeA7NhqwW3Kqvxo481bQJhug5oKTaVKg = spammer
 279 2011-03-08 01:58:47 <xelister> kill him!
 280 2011-03-08 01:58:55 <xelister> attack barier!
 281 2011-03-08 01:58:56 <noagendamarket> release the hounds
 282 2011-03-08 01:59:23 <mizerydearia> luke-jr, try encouraging them to spam at witcoin.  I would like to see how far they will get.
 283 2011-03-08 01:59:36 <mizerydearia> I encourage them to try as much as they can afford to 6_^
 284 2011-03-08 01:59:38 <keystroke> haha
 285 2011-03-08 02:00:21 <noagendamarket> :)
 286 2011-03-08 02:00:37 <mizerydearia> luke-jr, Additionally, I can associate a category with you (maybe spam.witcoin.com? ^_^) and you can specifically request them to spam in that category and then you will profit at their attempts
 287 2011-03-08 02:00:49 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: how?
 288 2011-03-08 02:00:52 <mizerydearia> how what?
 289 2011-03-08 02:00:59 <luke-jr> how do I request them do anything?
 290 2011-03-08 02:01:05 <mizerydearia> I am not sure?
 291 2011-03-08 02:01:07 <luke-jr> :p
 292 2011-03-08 02:01:36 <noagendamarket> viagra.witcoin.com
 293 2011-03-08 02:01:39 <noagendamarket> :)
 294 2011-03-08 02:01:46 <mizerydearia> well, firstly
 295 2011-03-08 02:01:48 <noagendamarket> make it hard for spammers
 296 2011-03-08 02:01:50 <mizerydearia> in what way did 18XeA7NhqwW3Kqvxo481bQJhug5oKTaVKg spam?
 297 2011-03-08 02:02:10 <mizerydearia> 8 results @ google for 18XeA7NhqwW3Kqvxo481bQJhug5oKTaVKg
 298 2011-03-08 02:02:17 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: #bitcoin-watch
 299 2011-03-08 02:02:21 <mizerydearia> ah
 300 2011-03-08 02:02:25 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: they're sending lots of small tx to that address
 301 2011-03-08 02:02:53 <da2ce7> lol, google is indexing the block chain!
 302 2011-03-08 02:03:10 <luke-jr> :P
 303 2011-03-08 02:03:16 <da2ce7> that is going to be lots to data in a while.
 304 2011-03-08 02:03:51 <mizerydearia> So basically, I could set up two bitcoin nodes, and write a script on each of the servers to send bitcoins to each other back and forth infinitely and also spam...
 305 2011-03-08 02:04:07 <luke-jr> could do it with one node
 306 2011-03-08 02:04:34 <AmpEater> What effect would it have?
 307 2011-03-08 02:04:46 <da2ce7> yes, and if you need to include fees, you will be supporting the mining doing that.
 308 2011-03-08 02:05:02 <luke-jr> AmpEater: mainly, preventing people from sending tx for free
 309 2011-03-08 02:05:13 <AmpEater> I see
 310 2011-03-08 02:05:31 <luke-jr> ever since the last tx spam, I stopped accepting *any* tx without fees
 311 2011-03-08 02:05:34 <luke-jr> so I'm kinda immune
 312 2011-03-08 02:05:36 <luke-jr> :D
 313 2011-03-08 02:05:48 <da2ce7> I'm supprised that the big miners are not filling up the blocks with spam, to force people to include fees.
 314 2011-03-08 02:05:58 <AmpEater> Bingo
 315 2011-03-08 02:06:05 <luke-jr> da2ce7: we don't know they aren't.
 316 2011-03-08 02:06:15 <luke-jr> but it's more efficient to just refuse to include free ones at all
 317 2011-03-08 02:06:20 <luke-jr> afaik I'm the only one taking that road
 318 2011-03-08 02:06:20 <da2ce7> luke-jr, the blocks are not full
 319 2011-03-08 02:06:32 <luke-jr> da2ce7: the free parts are
 320 2011-03-08 02:06:48 <luke-jr> da2ce7: only the first 10 KB or so can have tx without fees, per default policy
 321 2011-03-08 02:07:05 <mizerydearia> luke-jr, Well, until mainline bitcoin client can allow for fees less than 0.01 bitcoins, I don't want to send a fee of 0.01 bitcoins.
 322 2011-03-08 02:07:07 <da2ce7> http://blockexplorer.com/
 323 2011-03-08 02:07:09 <sipa> 3000 bytes i think
 324 2011-03-08 02:07:20 <da2ce7> the last blocks have all been under 10KB
 325 2011-03-08 02:07:22 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: it can, I'm pretty sure
 326 2011-03-08 02:07:38 <luke-jr> sipa: oh, that small?
 327 2011-03-08 02:07:45 <mizerydearia> A couple days ago someone suggested it rounds 0.00000001 to 0.01
 328 2011-03-08 02:07:56 <sipa> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4149.0
 329 2011-03-08 02:08:24 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: current git mainline doesn't, I'm 99% certain
 330 2011-03-08 02:08:33 <mizerydearia> hmm
 331 2011-03-08 02:08:48 <da2ce7> hey, slush, can i have a option on your pool so it sends me the exact ammount of coins I select, so If I select 10 BTC, insted of sending me 10.326242 it send 10 exzact, and the ballance carries over?
 332 2011-03-08 02:09:12 <luke-jr> da2ce7: that's all it does
 333 2011-03-08 02:09:15 <luke-jr> unless he's changed it
 334 2011-03-08 02:09:40 <sipa> da2ce7: all balances goes over
 335 2011-03-08 02:09:46 <sipa> except the part below 0.01 BTC
 336 2011-03-08 02:09:53 subpar has joined
 337 2011-03-08 02:09:55 <da2ce7> nope, it send everythign you have earnt, as soon as you get more than the set ammount
 338 2011-03-08 02:10:11 <sipa> oh, i misread
 339 2011-03-08 02:10:14 <da2ce7> so you always have like 10.05723 or something like that.
 340 2011-03-08 02:10:15 <sipa> why do you want that?
 341 2011-03-08 02:10:26 <da2ce7> so I can keep my balances clean.
 342 2011-03-08 02:10:32 <da2ce7> easyer to add up.
 343 2011-03-08 02:10:35 <sipa> it's only up to two digits, no?
 344 2011-03-08 02:10:48 <da2ce7> no, it is up to exzact
 345 2011-03-08 02:11:02 <da2ce7> I beleve
 346 2011-03-08 02:11:12 <mizerydearia> bitcoin client only sees 2 digits
 347 2011-03-08 02:11:21 <mizerydearia> so it may be that slush eats the remaining amounts
 348 2011-03-08 02:11:29 <sipa> he doesn't eat anything
 349 2011-03-08 02:11:35 <da2ce7> ah no it seems to be rounded to 2 digits.
 350 2011-03-08 02:11:43 <sipa> he just pays out up to two digits
 351 2011-03-08 02:11:47 <mizerydearia> so, for example, if it sends you 10.011 bitcoins, it may eat the 0.001 and you will only receive 10.01
 352 2011-03-08 02:11:49 <da2ce7> :P
 353 2011-03-08 02:11:52 <sipa> and the rest remains in your account there
 354 2011-03-08 02:12:01 <sipa> and accumulates until it becomes >= 0.01 BTC
 355 2011-03-08 02:12:16 <mizerydearia> just a theory
 356 2011-03-08 02:12:18 <mizerydearia> I didn't bother to check
 357 2011-03-08 02:12:22 <sipa> it's wrong :)
 358 2011-03-08 02:12:29 * mizerydearia starts the wrong theory fanclub
 359 2011-03-08 02:12:45 <mizerydearia> I also theorize that this isn't a theory
 360 2011-03-08 02:12:56 <sipa> he does eat tx fees though :)
 361 2011-03-08 02:13:02 <mizerydearia> yum
 362 2011-03-08 02:13:10 <sipa> for *breakfast*
 363 2011-03-08 02:13:10 <da2ce7> lol, well it is funny, the bitcoin community is in the 'super secert project' stage.
 364 2011-03-08 02:13:11 <da2ce7> :)
 365 2011-03-08 02:13:17 <mizerydearia> the next popeye?
 366 2011-03-08 02:13:23 yawniek has joined
 367 2011-03-08 02:13:25 <da2ce7> everyone has a secert project that they are working on.
 368 2011-03-08 02:13:41 <mizerydearia> I'm secretly working on a q&a site
 369 2011-03-08 02:13:55 <mizerydearia> secretly it will be called hivemynd
 370 2011-03-08 02:14:00 <noagendamarket> I dont think its a secret lol
 371 2011-03-08 02:14:05 <mizerydearia> also secretly the name is courtesy of noagendamarket
 372 2011-03-08 02:14:25 <da2ce7> I'm secertly working on a mining for porn site... like slushes pool, except when you submit shares you get access to images!
 373 2011-03-08 02:14:27 <mizerydearia> even more secretly is that noagendamarket  is infamous
 374 2011-03-08 02:14:44 <mizerydearia> da2ce7, kinda like sex.witcoin.com but instead of mining, there's posting?
 375 2011-03-08 02:15:02 <da2ce7> no you use you GPU miner, and you get 'free' porn
 376 2011-03-08 02:15:08 <da2ce7> so I get the bitcoins.
 377 2011-03-08 02:15:13 <mizerydearia> ^_^
 378 2011-03-08 02:15:29 <da2ce7> I thought that the 4chan and gamers would like it.
 379 2011-03-08 02:15:36 <mizerydearia> unlikely
 380 2011-03-08 02:15:41 <Cusipzzz> with my cpu miner, i would get ASCII porn i guess
 381 2011-03-08 02:15:47 <da2ce7> lol
 382 2011-03-08 02:16:29 * da2ce7 thinks that the porn miner is a good idea, however it isn't his real super secert project (anyone is free to take it and make some good BTC)
 383 2011-03-08 02:16:48 <mizerydearia> noagendamarket, Cdecker's claim proves that you are infamous: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4175.msg61341#msg61341
 384 2011-03-08 02:17:21 <Cusipzzz> like el guapo
 385 2011-03-08 02:17:26 <noagendamarket> hmm  I am ned kelly :)
 386 2011-03-08 02:17:29 <mizerydearia> oh hai Cusipzzz
 387 2011-03-08 02:17:30 <mizerydearia> pm
 388 2011-03-08 02:18:19 <noagendamarket> heh
 389 2011-03-08 02:18:29 <da2ce7> straw poll, how many chicks do we have in #bitcoin-dev ? :P
 390 2011-03-08 02:18:48 * noagendamarket is more like a fart in a movie theatre 
 391 2011-03-08 02:19:16 <da2ce7> lmao
 392 2011-03-08 02:19:45 * da2ce7 thinks that the bitcoiners from downunder are so non-serious.
 393 2011-03-08 02:20:35 kiba has joined
 394 2011-03-08 02:22:22 <noagendamarket> I dont know how many chicks
 395 2011-03-08 02:22:30 <mizerydearia> Is it possibly to initiate force to make someone volunteer?
 396 2011-03-08 02:22:33 <mizerydearia> possible*
 397 2011-03-08 02:24:36 <da2ce7> mizerydearia, no that would be force, so it isn't voluteering.
 398 2011-03-08 02:30:34 alkor has joined
 399 2011-03-08 02:30:42 alkor has left ()
 400 2011-03-08 02:34:01 <xelister> da2ce7: lol
 401 2011-03-08 02:34:30 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 406 2011-03-08 03:05:16 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: see? :P
 407 2011-03-08 03:10:44 <[Tycho]> "<ojacobson> Also, use "gay" as a perjorative again and I'll ban you" - why "gay" can't be used as a perjorative ?
 408 2011-03-08 03:11:41 satamusic_ has joined
 409 2011-03-08 03:14:55 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 410 2011-03-08 03:15:22 phantomcircuit has joined
 411 2011-03-08 03:23:49 <nanotube> [Tycho]: because it implies that being gay is bad?
 412 2011-03-08 03:24:07 <nanotube> and thereby wantonly insults all gay people?
 413 2011-03-08 03:24:20 <luke-jr> nanotube: exactly
 414 2011-03-08 03:27:56 <xelister> really nothing more interesting was said in last 1 hour? =)
 415 2011-03-08 03:27:58 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 416 2011-03-08 03:29:13 <BurtyB> nanotube the BBC don't agree ;) http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/article671972.ece
 417 2011-03-08 03:31:10 <phantomcircuit> is there a rate limit for getblocks ?
 418 2011-03-08 03:31:37 <nanotube> BurtyB: yea it's a cartman neologism. still, just like one can't force others not to use it, one also can't force others to like it.
 419 2011-03-08 03:32:28 <nanotube> anyway, i was just explaining why someone may take offense at using 'gay' as an insult.
 420 2011-03-08 03:32:53 <nanotube> the rest is up to you
 421 2011-03-08 03:33:06 <phantomcircuit> an insult?
 422 2011-03-08 03:33:13 <phantomcircuit> how is calling someone happy an insult
 423 2011-03-08 03:34:14 <AAA_awright> ^ GAY
 424 2011-03-08 03:35:02 <phantomcircuit> actually im not that gay
 425 2011-03-08 03:35:04 <BurtyB> nanotube indeed, all good fun this language thing init...
 426 2011-03-08 03:35:16 <phantomcircuit> for some reason bitcoind isn't responding by my getblocks requests
 427 2011-03-08 03:35:35 <nanotube> heh yep
 428 2011-03-08 03:36:53 <phantomcircuit> getblocks -1 to 0000000000006862e466 limit 500
 429 2011-03-08 03:36:58 <phantomcircuit> -1? wtf
 430 2011-03-08 03:38:48 <bk128> anyone here good with electronics?
 431 2011-03-08 03:41:33 AmpEater has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 432 2011-03-08 03:47:00 <lfm> bk128: what electronics?
 433 2011-03-08 03:47:11 <gasteve> bk128: maybe a more specific question would get a better response
 434 2011-03-08 03:47:33 <bk128> is the polarity of the 22uf cap in this circuit is backwards?  It's a charge pump to make a negative voltage to drive a lcd.  It works, and produces a negative voltage, but the voltage across the 22uf cap is reversed.  Just thinking I should flip it http://i52.tinypic.com/2626xcg.png
 435 2011-03-08 03:47:40 <lfm> I think i remember which end of a soldering iron to hold on to
 436 2011-03-08 03:49:58 <gasteve> sorry, no help from me (I thought you were going to ask how to set the clock on your VCR)
 437 2011-03-08 03:50:26 <bk128> gasteve: are you a 12:00 flasher?
 438 2011-03-08 03:50:42 <bk128> people who can never figure out how to set their clocks
 439 2011-03-08 03:51:07 <gasteve> no, I prefer to flash earlier
 440 2011-03-08 03:51:52 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 441 2011-03-08 03:53:45 <MagicalTux> luke-jr, see what?
 442 2011-03-08 03:53:58 <noagendamarket> someone should sell neopets for btc lol
 443 2011-03-08 03:56:24 <dwdollar> polarity looks right to me
 444 2011-03-08 03:57:10 <dwdollar> from the diagram
 445 2011-03-08 03:58:19 <mizerydearia> In regards to "gay" term being misunderstoond, I suggest someone to establish a video parody in which, for example maybe someone sees something like a ... *thinks* ...   blue-colored toy car model that someone built, and someone says "that's gay" because they think it looks like crap or whatever... and then all of a sudden, another blue-colored toy car model drives up next to it and cuddles next to it. ^_^
 446 2011-03-08 03:58:21 <dwdollar> ground is ground, it's going to be lower than anything on the other end
 447 2011-03-08 03:59:29 <OneFixt> mizerydearia: ironically, in russian, "light blue" is slang for gay
 448 2011-03-08 03:59:49 <[Tycho]> :)
 449 2011-03-08 03:59:57 <mizerydearia> OneFixt, there's a "in soviet russia" there somewhere
 450 2011-03-08 04:00:03 <mizerydearia> joke*
 451 2011-03-08 04:00:03 <OneFixt> bingo =)
 452 2011-03-08 04:00:44 <noagendamarket> in soviet russia gays fuck you ?
 453 2011-03-08 04:00:51 <noagendamarket> no maybe not
 454 2011-03-08 04:00:55 <OneFixt> in soviet russia, you're gay.
 455 2011-03-08 04:00:58 <noagendamarket> lol
 456 2011-03-08 04:01:12 <OneFixt> make that YOU'RE
 457 2011-03-08 04:02:17 mmarker has joined
 458 2011-03-08 04:04:09 <bk128> dwdollar: no, the other terminal of that 22uf electrolytic is negative with respect to ground
 459 2011-03-08 04:04:57 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: the bot removing me :P
 460 2011-03-08 04:05:23 <MagicalTux> luke-jr, you doesn't look removed
 461 2011-03-08 04:05:42 <MagicalTux> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes <- I see you
 462 2011-03-08 04:05:56 <MagicalTux> (this time)
 463 2011-03-08 04:06:04 <dwdollar> bk128:  hmm... through the whole period?  Charge pumps mystify me I guess.
 464 2011-03-08 04:08:19 <afed_> OneFixt: please don't say 'gay', it is offensive to my beliefs
 465 2011-03-08 04:09:27 <OneFixt> afed_: of course, i wasn't using it in a negative sense, just chiming into the discussion about why NOT to use it, and unfortunately i got sucked into refining noagendamarket's joke
 466 2011-03-08 04:10:13 <OneFixt> then again, i don't think the joke was too offensive
 467 2011-03-08 04:10:28 phantomcircuit has joined
 468 2011-03-08 04:12:56 <mizerydearia> xelister, pm
 469 2011-03-08 04:17:26 <phantomcircuit> yeah im not crazy
 470 2011-03-08 04:17:41 <phantomcircuit> making the exact same getblocks request more than once results in different results
 471 2011-03-08 04:18:22 <bk128> block chain split?
 472 2011-03-08 04:21:28 <phantomcircuit> nope
 473 2011-03-08 04:22:00 <phantomcircuit> looks like the map of hashes to blocks fails
 474 2011-03-08 04:22:41 <phantomcircuit> getblocks -1 to 0000000000006862e466 limit 500
 475 2011-03-08 04:23:19 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 476 2011-03-08 04:23:30 <phantomcircuit> eh
 477 2011-03-08 04:23:42 <phantomcircuit> network protocol appears to support multiple possible start points
 478 2011-03-08 04:23:56 <phantomcircuit> but the actual handling in bitcoind doesn't
 479 2011-03-08 04:24:14 <[Tycho]> Looks like someone is exploiting bitcoind atm...
 480 2011-03-08 04:24:39 <phantomcircuit> ?
 481 2011-03-08 04:24:54 <phantomcircuit> what did everybodies btc just get transfered to a new address ?XD
 482 2011-03-08 04:25:22 <mmarker> ?
 483 2011-03-08 04:25:24 <[Tycho]> No, in a realistic way.
 484 2011-03-08 04:28:09 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: any idea what was breaking it?
 485 2011-03-08 04:28:25 <luke-jr> MagicalTux: also, if that's a protocol version, why is there a 0.3.20? did the protocol actually change⁇
 486 2011-03-08 04:32:40 AmpEater has joined
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 488 2011-03-08 04:35:24 genjix has quit (Changing host)
 489 2011-03-08 04:35:24 genjix has joined
 490 2011-03-08 04:36:47 mmarker has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 491 2011-03-08 04:37:12 mmarker has joined
 492 2011-03-08 04:37:12 mmarker has quit (Changing host)
 493 2011-03-08 04:37:12 mmarker has joined
 494 2011-03-08 04:38:35 mmarker has quit (Client Quit)
 495 2011-03-08 04:39:05 da2ce7 has quit ()
 496 2011-03-08 04:41:13 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 497 2011-03-08 04:44:47 <gasteve> so, what does it mean that "someone is exploiting bitcoind atm..."?
 498 2011-03-08 04:49:35 knotwork has joined
 499 2011-03-08 04:51:12 <lfm> it means we are overrun with paranoids here
 500 2011-03-08 04:52:13 <jgarzik> heh
 501 2011-03-08 04:55:25 <phantomcircuit> YAY PARANOIDS
 502 2011-03-08 04:56:35 <Cusipzzz> even paranoid people are being followed, sometimes
 503 2011-03-08 04:56:45 <AmpEater> Ps, the sky is falling
 504 2011-03-08 04:59:02 da2ce7 has joined
 505 2011-03-08 04:59:03 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
 506 2011-03-08 04:59:03 da2ce7 has joined
 507 2011-03-08 04:59:15 <mizerydearia> this idea by sgornick is interesting: http://forumquotes.witcoin.com/p/340/A-distasteful-but-not-dangerous-item-mailed-to-a-politician
 508 2011-03-08 04:59:45 Spenvo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 509 2011-03-08 04:59:50 <mizerydearia> Actually, originally by Littleshop and error
 510 2011-03-08 04:59:56 da2ce7 has quit (Client Quit)
 511 2011-03-08 05:00:33 <noagendamarket> lawl   I replied
 512 2011-03-08 05:00:35 da2ce7 has joined
 513 2011-03-08 05:00:41 <mizerydearia> sgornick, Maybe as a kind of courtesy, we should make a habit (I have done so a couple times) of contacting those that we cite alerting them of the witpost and perhaps encouraging them to post instead or also.
 514 2011-03-08 05:01:17 <mizerydearia> that way, the original authors can establish profitability from their own posts instead of us plagiarizing and profiting from works of others.
 515 2011-03-08 05:02:04 <gasteve> it's not paranoia if they're really out to get you ;)
 516 2011-03-08 05:02:08 <mizerydearia> btw, I use "we" loosely as in that we may have shared the same actions, but not that we are affiliated
 517 2011-03-08 05:02:43 Slix` has joined
 518 2011-03-08 05:03:05 <mizerydearia> For example, I posted http://random.witcoin.com/p/338/spammer-alert but I didn't contact the guy in the picture suggesting for him to post himself so that he could profit instead of me.
 519 2011-03-08 05:03:18 Slix` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 520 2011-03-08 05:04:06 <noagendamarket> you didnt spam him ?
 521 2011-03-08 05:04:17 <noagendamarket> how can you live with yourself :)
 522 2011-03-08 05:04:54 <jgarzik> https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/ quite low on funds
 523 2011-03-08 05:05:03 * jgarzik donated
 524 2011-03-08 05:05:58 <noagendamarket> we are setting up the ability to donate to charity on witcoin
 525 2011-03-08 05:06:15 <noagendamarket> the faucet will be one of those
 526 2011-03-08 05:06:33 <Aciid> sent some goodies to the fauclet
 527 2011-03-08 05:06:33 JackRabiit has joined
 528 2011-03-08 05:06:34 <noagendamarket> so hopefully you can donate without having to remeber to do so :)
 529 2011-03-08 05:06:51 <[Tycho]> "[07:42] <lfm> it means we are overrun with paranoids here" - look at the transactions queue.
 530 2011-03-08 05:07:24 <AmpEater> Yeah what's up
 531 2011-03-08 05:07:48 <Aciid> http://www.bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
 532 2011-03-08 05:07:52 <Aciid> wtf is going on here
 533 2011-03-08 05:08:23 <JackRabiit> Any noise on the technology to run GPU mining as more of a background app, IE play Real games while mining ata slow speed, then when the game ends, the miner speeds up due to free gpu?
 534 2011-03-08 05:08:42 discHead has joined
 535 2011-03-08 05:09:23 <Aciid> is someone spamming with transactions?
 536 2011-03-08 05:09:24 <AmpEater> Someone forcing tx fees?
 537 2011-03-08 05:09:58 <genjix> http://tauday.com/
 538 2011-03-08 05:10:02 <genjix> Pi is bullshit. Hail Tau
 539 2011-03-08 05:12:27 <gasteve> how do you look at the transaction queue?  I keep #bitcoin-watch open and haven't noticed a significantly high volume of transactions coming through
 540 2011-03-08 05:13:40 <nanotube> http://www.bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ <-- gasteve
 541 2011-03-08 05:16:43 <gasteve> that's not a lot...and many are spends to the same account...isn't that the anti-spamming feature kicking in to throttle the rate?
 542 2011-03-08 05:17:34 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726])
 543 2011-03-08 05:18:30 <[Tycho]> Actually bit transaction queque DO have bad effect on bitcoind.
 544 2011-03-08 05:18:47 <[Tycho]> *big
 545 2011-03-08 05:19:45 <gasteve> yeah, but this is only a few hundred...not what I would consider big...yet
 546 2011-03-08 05:19:45 <genjix> #bitcoin-watch is awesome :D
 547 2011-03-08 05:20:07 <genjix> why does every transaction seem to have only 2 addresses though?
 548 2011-03-08 05:20:15 <genjix> oh nvm
 549 2011-03-08 05:20:22 <genjix> (dense me)
 550 2011-03-08 05:22:12 <tcatm> #bitcoin-monitor is the original. luke-jr cloned it after I removed his tonal support ;)
 551 2011-03-08 05:22:18 <gasteve> maybe clients should simply cap the number of transactions to the same account that they'll retain or forward...the standard client should be able to prevent someone from accidentally exceeding that limit
 552 2011-03-08 05:22:35 <luke-jr> tcatm: and broke it
 553 2011-03-08 05:22:49 <luke-jr> tcatm: my fork also improves from where it used to be
 554 2011-03-08 05:22:56 <[Tycho]> #bitcoin-watch looks empty to me
 555 2011-03-08 05:23:03 <tcatm> luke-jr: where are your changes?
 556 2011-03-08 05:23:20 <luke-jr> tcatm: I can't share them, you have "All Rights Reserved" :p
 557 2011-03-08 05:23:23 <xelister> tonnal support, must-have
 558 2011-03-08 05:23:29 <luke-jr> tcatm: give me a license, and I'll publish
 559 2011-03-08 05:24:07 <tcatm> public domain
 560 2011-03-08 05:24:17 <xelister> last time when I tryed to used tonal, I said I want a bong, and this big guy handcuffs me
 561 2011-03-08 05:24:20 <luke-jr> that ain't no license :P
 562 2011-03-08 05:24:27 <luke-jr> tcatm: ok, it's on Gitorious :p
 563 2011-03-08 05:24:36 <luke-jr> xelister: that's a lot :P
 564 2011-03-08 05:24:48 <luke-jr> actually, not too much
 565 2011-03-08 05:25:09 <luke-jr> xelister: I'll sell ya a bong for 41 USD
 566 2011-03-08 05:25:15 <noagendamarket> lol
 567 2011-03-08 05:25:19 <xelister> I think my Radeon made a song about the Bong
 568 2011-03-08 05:25:23 <xelister> or was it Cypress
 569 2011-03-08 05:25:44 <xelister> strange, Wiki page lists no GPU model named Hill.
 570 2011-03-08 05:25:51 <luke-jr> tcatm: http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/supybot-btcmonitor
 571 2011-03-08 05:26:28 <gasteve> so...anyhow...what is the effect on bitcoind of having a lot of unconfirmed transactions sloshing around?
 572 2011-03-08 05:26:29 <mizerydearia> the colors in #bitcoin-monitor are easy on my eyes and I can understand the data easily.  colors in #bitcoin-watch are blindnig and my eyes have to adjust for about 10 seconds before I can read the data.
 573 2011-03-08 05:27:12 <[Tycho]> Yes, colors in #bitcoin-watch are bad.
 574 2011-03-08 05:27:20 <[Tycho]> But did #bitcoin-monitor had any colors ?
 575 2011-03-08 05:27:23 <luke-jr> suggestions welcome
 576 2011-03-08 05:27:27 <mizerydearia> yep, it has colors
 577 2011-03-08 05:27:30 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: yes,  but too much grey
 578 2011-03-08 05:27:38 <phantomcircuit> argh
 579 2011-03-08 05:27:46 <tcatm> [Tycho]: only for BTC amounts so you can easily spot them
 580 2011-03-08 05:28:44 JackRabiit has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 581 2011-03-08 05:28:55 <luke-jr> the colours in -watch are admittedly too vivid, but I haven't thought of a scheme to work better without losing the scannability
 582 2011-03-08 05:29:20 <luke-jr> tcatm: watch this trick…
 583 2011-03-08 05:31:12 <gasteve> personally, I would drop all colors and perhaps underline the BTC ...put the TX id first (not last as in -monitor) and make the id stand out by putting angle brackets around it
 584 2011-03-08 05:31:28 <tcatm> make the hashes clickable links to blockexplorer and -watch would be cooler ;)
 585 2011-03-08 05:31:51 <luke-jr> tcatm: impossible unfortunately
 586 2011-03-08 05:32:01 <luke-jr> also, blockexplorer won't show any tx until they're in  a block
 587 2011-03-08 05:32:06 <[Tycho]> Don't see the colors in -monitor. Are they green ?
 588 2011-03-08 05:32:15 <tcatm> [Tycho]: yep
 589 2011-03-08 05:32:22 <gasteve> angle brackets around the block id too...and if you can, make the entire block line bold
 590 2011-03-08 05:32:26 <[Tycho]> I have default green text in IRC :))
 591 2011-03-08 05:32:32 <luke-jr> gasteve: not as easy to scan that way, IMO
 592 2011-03-08 05:32:53 <gasteve> yeah, but I want you to make it how I like it ;)
 593 2011-03-08 05:33:13 Zib has joined
 594 2011-03-08 05:33:28 <luke-jr> guess we have to make a BitCoin Watch app that can be configured :P
 595 2011-03-08 05:33:35 <gasteve> make it support CSS so we can all customize it how we like ;)
 596 2011-03-08 05:33:42 * tcatm goes to improve the monitor on bitcoincharts instead of -monitor
 597 2011-03-08 05:34:10 <AmpEater> Would be cool
 598 2011-03-08 05:34:13 <gasteve> (actually, I guess a client could do that all their own)
 599 2011-03-08 05:34:42 <gasteve> just use some xml tags in the messages and the client could apply formatting
 600 2011-03-08 05:35:01 <luke-jr> there's a lot of stuff I'd like to see in a UI
 601 2011-03-08 05:35:03 andrew12 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 602 2011-03-08 05:35:08 <luke-jr> integrate -watch, and block explorer
 603 2011-03-08 05:35:15 <luke-jr> would be much nicer
 604 2011-03-08 05:35:23 <gasteve> yep
 605 2011-03-08 05:36:34 <tcatm> that's what I'm doing for bitcoincharts. including nested TX should they depend on other unconfirmed TX
 606 2011-03-08 05:36:36 <gasteve> it would be pretty neat for a client that supported markup and css based formatting...you could do a lot of nice things with channels like -monitor or -watch
 607 2011-03-08 05:37:13 ZaEarl has joined
 608 2011-03-08 05:37:32 <luke-jr> gasteve: that'd be XMPP
 609 2011-03-08 05:38:03 <gasteve> yeah, I suppose so
 610 2011-03-08 05:38:21 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 611 2011-03-08 05:38:45 <MagicalTux> luke-jr, that's the protocol version you're returning, that's all
 612 2011-03-08 05:38:45 andrew12 has joined
 613 2011-03-08 05:42:52 <genjix> sudo apt-get install update-manager-core
 614 2011-03-08 05:42:53 <genjix> oops
 615 2011-03-08 05:43:33 <phantomcircuit> is there some kind of rate limiting in the default client?
 616 2011-03-08 05:43:46 <genjix> the copy paste admin :)
 617 2011-03-08 05:47:37 slush1 has joined
 618 2011-03-08 05:51:06 MartianW has joined
 619 2011-03-08 05:51:19 <mizerydearia> oh shnap
 620 2011-03-08 05:51:35 <mizerydearia> MartianW, did I just greet you?
 621 2011-03-08 05:52:27 <mizerydearia> ah, channels are regexps
 622 2011-03-08 05:52:31 <mizerydearia> should be fixed now
 623 2011-03-08 05:52:43 <mizerydearia> Will someone please join #bitcoin and tell me if they receive a greeting?
 624 2011-03-08 05:53:07 <mizerydearia> ah, I'll do it myself
 625 2011-03-08 05:54:03 <mizerydearia> seems to work as privmsg
 626 2011-03-08 05:56:24 <da2ce7> http://www.anandtech.com/show/4209/amds-radeon-hd-6990-the-new-single-card-king
 627 2011-03-08 05:56:29 <da2ce7> boom!
 628 2011-03-08 05:56:30 <da2ce7> :)
 629 2011-03-08 05:56:47 <Mango-chan> lol @ diablo3
 630 2011-03-08 05:56:49 <Mango-chan> i for one
 631 2011-03-08 05:56:52 <Mango-chan> welcome our new 6990 king
 632 2011-03-08 06:00:04 <AmpEater> Lol
 633 2011-03-08 06:03:07 <luke-jr> is it out?
 634 2011-03-08 06:03:17 <da2ce7> yep
 635 2011-03-08 06:03:22 <luke-jr> finally.
 636 2011-03-08 06:03:25 * luke-jr hits ebay
 637 2011-03-08 06:03:45 <luke-jr> meh, nothing decent yet
 638 2011-03-08 06:03:46 <genjix> mizerydearia: nice one
 639 2011-03-08 06:05:55 <mizerydearia> yeah, that should prevent further users from joining the channel and leaving it never realizing existence of this channel
 640 2011-03-08 06:06:19 <mizerydearia> alternatively, nanotube perhaps you can more permanently switch gribble from sending a notice to instead sending a public msg to the channel?
 641 2011-03-08 06:07:59 satamusic_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 642 2011-03-08 06:08:32 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 643 2011-03-08 06:12:55 <[Tycho]> Who would buy 6990 for mining @ $700 if used 5970 is $450 ?
 644 2011-03-08 06:15:31 <xelister> I suspect 6990 linux driver sucks cocks?
 645 2011-03-08 06:18:10 <[Tycho]> I doubt they can do that.
 646 2011-03-08 06:21:37 <xelister> well previously cards did that successfully
 647 2011-03-08 06:22:06 <xelister> I have images of that at freenet.
 648 2011-03-08 06:24:32 <xelister> but still Flash is the cockmongler master
 649 2011-03-08 06:24:55 <xelister> FLASH MANAGES TO USE 250% OF MY CPU (2-3 CORES).  WHAT THE FUCK.   AND X ORG USES ANOTHER 50% WITH FLASH.
 650 2011-03-08 06:25:08 <xelister> flash is a hellspawn.
 651 2011-03-08 06:25:21 <Aciid> xelister: CPU CPU
 652 2011-03-08 06:25:37 <Aciid> it's a BAD implemation
 653 2011-03-08 06:25:48 <xelister> well duh, Adobe made it
 654 2011-03-08 06:25:59 <Aciid> they said the new version will fix GPU accelration. al thou 32bit version is the only version they released so far
 655 2011-03-08 06:26:07 <xelister> I wonder if really Ati was not involved in flash development process, or viceversa
 656 2011-03-08 06:26:29 discHead has quit (Quit:)
 657 2011-03-08 06:26:47 AmpEater has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 658 2011-03-08 06:26:49 <xelister> Aciid: flash cocksuckery manages to eat 250% OF i7 CORE CPU TIME, even WHEN THE FLASH WINDOW IS MINIMIZED, NOT VISIBLE, ON ANOTHER WORKS SPACE. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. Adobe. Im dissapointed.
 659 2011-03-08 06:26:56 <Aciid> xelister: which version?
 660 2011-03-08 06:27:00 <Aciid> of flash
 661 2011-03-08 06:27:13 <xelister> 10.2.152.  why?
 662 2011-03-08 06:27:24 <Aciid> just asking
 663 2011-03-08 06:27:33 <Aciid> its the latest =9
 664 2011-03-08 06:27:35 <Aciid> hmm
 665 2011-03-08 06:27:45 <Aciid> I have no idea why wont the GPu accelration work for you
 666 2011-03-08 06:27:53 <Aciid> it does that sometimes
 667 2011-03-08 06:27:55 <xelister> what acceleartion
 668 2011-03-08 06:28:02 <xelister> the window is not visible
 669 2011-03-08 06:28:13 <Aciid> then its just failing
 670 2011-03-08 06:28:18 <Aciid> try it with Chrome
 671 2011-03-08 06:28:28 <Aciid> usually fixes shit, since it has builtin proper version
 672 2011-03-08 06:28:32 <xelister> Adobe deserves severe beating by a bunch of drunken Russian deserters, for trying to render to actuall X some shit in NOT VISIBLE window
 673 2011-03-08 06:28:40 <Aciid> bwahahah
 674 2011-03-08 06:32:55 <[Tycho]> "<xelister> FLASH MANAGES TO USE 250% OF MY CPU" - may be you are using Firefox ?
 675 2011-03-08 06:33:07 <xelister> yes
 676 2011-03-08 06:33:25 <[Tycho]> Firefox is slow, fat and can't work with flash.
 677 2011-03-08 06:33:30 <[Tycho]> I tried it.
 678 2011-03-08 06:33:35 <xelister> "Skipped to the next available video. One or more videos were no longer available."   yes motherfuckers, that totally makes me grab my wallet RIGHT AWAY and buy your shit in a phisical store on actuall DVD. And buy a DVD player.
 679 2011-03-08 06:33:45 <[Tycho]> ~10x slower on pages with flash than my IE6
 680 2011-03-08 06:33:59 AmpEater has joined
 681 2011-03-08 06:34:06 <xelister> you have an IE6 ( )_( )
 682 2011-03-08 06:34:11 <xelister> that should be illegal
 683 2011-03-08 06:34:17 <keystroke> i thought ie6 was illegal
 684 2011-03-08 06:34:19 <keystroke> haha nice
 685 2011-03-08 06:34:26 <[Tycho]> Well, at least it's fast.
 686 2011-03-08 06:34:39 <xelister> keystroke: it was illegal but then genewa convention is not happy about death penalty so you know
 687 2011-03-08 06:34:41 <[Tycho]> DVD players are cheaper than discs already
 688 2011-03-08 06:34:46 <keystroke> hahaha xelister
 689 2011-03-08 06:35:22 <xelister> [Tycho]: and buy a mobo with ATA connector
 690 2011-03-08 06:35:47 <xelister> this copyight corps idiots are so years behind current technology and what CUSTOMERS consider comfortable to use/buy.
 691 2011-03-08 06:36:19 <[Tycho]> Why ATA ?
 692 2011-03-08 06:36:42 <xelister> no wait you are right, atually I should just buy an DRM protected music.     :D   I really see myself doing that.
 693 2011-03-08 06:36:49 <[Tycho]> I was talking about dumb players, the ones used with TV.
 694 2011-03-08 06:37:03 <xelister> [Tycho]: they make SATA dvd players now? Im not up to date with acient technology
 695 2011-03-08 06:37:22 <xelister> the ones used with what now?
 696 2011-03-08 06:37:38 * xelister is so not a good customer from corps point of view
 697 2011-03-08 06:37:56 <[Tycho]> TV. Is the thing that looks like display.
 698 2011-03-08 06:38:07 <xelister> Im happily not owning any in years
 699 2011-03-08 06:38:23 <[Tycho]> They do have DVI/HDMI inputs now.
 700 2011-03-08 06:38:48 <xelister> ha that reminds me what was displayed at a local shop some time ago
 701 2011-03-08 06:38:48 <[Tycho]> And can be used to watch pirated movies. Well, may be not the LCD ones.
 702 2011-03-08 06:38:59 <xelister> good bargain, an 50" TV in price of a 20" TV
 703 2011-03-08 06:39:15 <xelister> small print: resolution: 768x540-something
 704 2011-03-08 06:39:21 <gasteve> so, I guess it's the number of stream processors and their speed that determine the hash rate?  in which case the 5970 is probably still going to be faster than the 6990
 705 2011-03-08 06:39:25 <xelister> Close Enough?
 706 2011-03-08 06:39:55 <gasteve> eh...meant to post that in -mining
 707 2011-03-08 06:39:59 <[Tycho]> Current models are USB hosts and you can just plug your USB-flash drive with fresh torrented movie.
 708 2011-03-08 06:40:04 <xelister> gasteve: 5970 is expected to be faster, especially as each Ati SDK release sucks dicks more then previous one, and you need the NEWEST sdk to use the 6990
 709 2011-03-08 06:40:17 <gasteve> haha
 710 2011-03-08 06:40:58 <xelister> perhaps on windows 6990 will actually work quite well nowdays. ArtForz said he expects 6690 afair to be theoretically a bit faster, but practically slower
 711 2011-03-08 06:41:12 <gasteve> I'm amazed at how these hardware manufacturers still seem to think Windows is the only OS anyone runs
 712 2011-03-08 06:41:25 <xelister> well Ati opensource their drivers
 713 2011-03-08 06:42:03 <xelister> unfortunatelly opensource one do not support OpenCL [yet], and their own one.. is released for linux... just is not very good and gets worse with each update since like half year or more
 714 2011-03-08 06:42:06 <ZaEarl> xelister, uh, no, ATI provides chip documentation.
 715 2011-03-08 06:42:12 <genjix> hmm i heard there's a bit more to it than that
 716 2011-03-08 06:42:15 <xelister> ZaEarl: and own binary driver
 717 2011-03-08 06:42:16 <ZaEarl> their drivers are strictly proprietary
 718 2011-03-08 06:42:34 <genjix> because to write drivers you need to engage the opensource politics
 719 2011-03-08 06:42:35 <xelister> there is also open source driver (its not usable at all for mining)
 720 2011-03-08 06:42:39 Lachesis has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 721 2011-03-08 06:42:45 <genjix> so nvidia went fuck it and just released a binary blob
 722 2011-03-08 06:42:50 <ZaEarl> ATI does not contribute to the open source driver
 723 2011-03-08 06:43:01 <genjix> but they cant release source since they have code from different vendors and stuff
 724 2011-03-08 06:43:22 <ZaEarl> ATI does release specs, which is infinitely more than Nvidia does.
 725 2011-03-08 06:43:50 <xelister> Ati also motivates open source developers, by releasing their own closed drivers with 'amazing' quality
 726 2011-03-08 06:44:23 <xelister> IT COMPILES! SHIP IT!   Runs on CEO box??? Wow, RELEASE IT!
 727 2011-03-08 06:45:49 <xelister> btw, I made them a page they should include in the paper manual, for linux version. http://imagebin.org/141730
 728 2011-03-08 06:46:27 <gasteve> lol
 729 2011-03-08 06:47:23 MartianW has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 730 2011-03-08 06:48:58 <jgarzik> ATI does contribute to the open source driver
 731 2011-03-08 06:50:02 <xelister> they should just like donate there their OpenCL stuff so more people could move top opensource driver (and possibly bitch at opensource developers instead ;)
 732 2011-03-08 06:52:05 <xelister> when os driver fully can replace binary one (fully, as good, as fast OpenGL, fully OpenCL) it will be a happy day.
 733 2011-03-08 06:52:25 <xelister> why they dont do that faster, it really would get them lot of customers mid and long term
 734 2011-03-08 06:57:30 <[Tycho]> What is the number after ":' ? http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
 735 2011-03-08 06:57:55 <tcatm> output id
 736 2011-03-08 06:58:12 <tcatm> click the link and it should highlight the correct output
 737 2011-03-08 06:59:04 <genjix> what font is that
 738 2011-03-08 06:59:55 <tcatm> font?
 739 2011-03-08 06:59:59 <genjix> i have no idea why companies don't realise opensource is in their best interests :p
 740 2011-03-08 07:00:07 <genjix> tcatm: @xelister ... the dicks
 741 2011-03-08 07:00:15 <tcatm> ah okay
 742 2011-03-08 07:00:59 <xelister> tcatm: http://imagebin.org/141730 =)
 743 2011-03-08 07:01:06 <genjix> im working with some company using bitcoin and every new project they try to close the sourcecode
 744 2011-03-08 07:01:12 <xelister> Cocksure.txt , surprisingly
 745 2011-03-08 07:01:17 <xelister> Cocksure.ttf
 746 2011-03-08 07:01:18 <genjix> eventhough after a few times they know i dont write closed source
 747 2011-03-08 07:01:56 <genjix> but they keep stipulating it and i have to break it down again
 748 2011-03-08 07:03:54 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 749 2011-03-08 07:11:00 MartianW has joined
 750 2011-03-08 07:11:17 BCBot has joined
 751 2011-03-08 07:11:29 <genjix> http://a.fsdn.com/sd/firehose/019/590/060-1.png
 752 2011-03-08 07:11:32 <genjix> 3d printed
 753 2011-03-08 07:11:35 <genjix> and edible
 754 2011-03-08 07:11:40 <genjix> (its a spacecraft)
 755 2011-03-08 07:12:18 <xelister> =)
 756 2011-03-08 07:13:42  has joined
 757 2011-03-08 07:13:49 <[Tycho]> Melted sugar ?
 758 2011-03-08 07:13:52 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 759 2011-03-08 07:15:23 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 760 2011-03-08 07:15:30 Spenvo has joined
 761 2011-03-08 07:16:00 <xelister> http://i.imgur.com/2SRrP.png hehe
 762 2011-03-08 07:16:49 <Aciid> fucking avast
 763 2011-03-08 07:17:01 <mizerydearia> Woot!  http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Bitcoin
 764 2011-03-08 07:18:22 <genjix> yeah i wrote that
 765 2011-03-08 07:18:37 <genjix> check history
 766 2011-03-08 07:23:08 bitcoiner has joined
 767 2011-03-08 07:23:36 <mizerydearia> attention needed: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Talk:Bitcoin
 768 2011-03-08 07:23:41 <mizerydearia> genjix, yeah, nice job! ^_^
 769 2011-03-08 07:24:48 <genjix> it's not factual, it's a joke... so who cares whether it's true or not :p
 770 2011-03-08 07:24:52 <genjix> write what you want
 771 2011-03-08 07:24:55 <mizerydearia> I have some crap graphics I made a while back that I can contribute
 772 2011-03-08 07:25:20 `Jaka has joined
 773 2011-03-08 07:25:21 `Jaka has quit (Client Quit)
 774 2011-03-08 07:26:39 `Jaka has joined
 775 2011-03-08 07:26:57 <dazoe>  so if i went to the trouble of building a completely ligit mp3 store that accepted bitcoin would anyone use it?
 776 2011-03-08 07:28:48 <mizerydearia> dazoe, some would, but most would still pirate
 777 2011-03-08 07:29:04 <Aciid> dazoe: depends on the costs/persong
 778 2011-03-08 07:29:05 Mango-chan has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 779 2011-03-08 07:29:13 <mizerydearia> However, I am confused that so many people pay for music from apple
 780 2011-03-08 07:29:23 <Aciid> dazoe: I think its not worth it
 781 2011-03-08 07:29:44 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 782 2011-03-08 07:30:27 <genjix> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Linux
 783 2011-03-08 07:30:30 <dazoe> mizerydearia: apple offers lossless :( and i haven't found a flac provider yet
 784 2011-03-08 07:30:34 <genjix> haha at the top quote!
 785 2011-03-08 07:30:42 <genjix> "I haven't been laid in a year. :( I think it's my distro. What version are you guys running?"
 786 2011-03-08 07:31:13 <Aciid> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:Macfagswinfagslinuxfags.jpg
 787 2011-03-08 07:31:38 <mizerydearia> dazoe, Well, there is always potential to establish a site competing with existing sites with your site instead involving bitcoins
 788 2011-03-08 07:31:56 <mizerydearia> genjix, ^_^
 789 2011-03-08 07:33:18 <genjix> haha so true Aciid
 790 2011-03-08 07:33:37 <genjix> that's exactly how i think
 791 2011-03-08 07:33:45 <tcatm> I think an MP3 store could be an interesting use of bitcoins if you can price the songs cheap but still allow them for unconfirmed TX.
 792 2011-03-08 07:33:56 <dazoe> well the provider i found will require the prices be set form most of the songs ($1.29/$0.99) and to comply with the TOS i'd have to use the exchange rate
 793 2011-03-08 07:37:08 <genjix> type "richard stallman " and see the 2nd entry on google autocomplete -_-
 794 2011-03-08 07:38:09 <Aciid> wikipedia?
 795 2011-03-08 07:38:19 <Aciid> genjix: which google tld
 796 2011-03-08 07:39:59 <xelister> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/9/97/Macfagswinfagslinuxfags.jpg  =)
 797 2011-03-08 07:40:07 <xelister> good one Aciid
 798 2011-03-08 07:40:20 <Aciid> ;P
 799 2011-03-08 07:40:37 <mizerydearia> genjix, hmm, I am not so familiar with wiki or ed, where is suitable place to post an image on bitcoin article?
 800 2011-03-08 07:40:43 <mizerydearia> e.g.
 801 2011-03-08 07:40:45 <mizerydearia> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:IL9ZMLVZILUZXLYHWHRR8LBZ2HJHIHTHQLTHGHCHHLEZLL5ZLLWZUHFH8LHRWHOHMHAHSL6Z4LLR.jpg
 802 2011-03-08 07:42:00 <genjix> mizerydearia: I add an image to the page that doesn't exist like [[Image:blaa]] then click and upload it.
 803 2011-03-08 07:42:08 <mizerydearia> mm, I see
 804 2011-03-08 07:42:11 <mizerydearia> I uploaded first
 805 2011-03-08 07:42:16 <genjix> Aciid: google autocompletion says "richard stallman is an idiot"
 806 2011-03-08 07:42:21 <xelister> this is funny because its totally truth http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c0/Linuxaudio.png
 807 2011-03-08 07:42:39 * mizerydearia agrees
 808 2011-03-08 07:43:16 <xelister> what in the fucks name is that http://encyclopediadramatica.com/File:Cybersex.jpg ?  my eeeyeeees I need bleech
 809 2011-03-08 07:44:12 * OneFixt slaps xelister around a bit with a large trout
 810 2011-03-08 07:46:08 <xelister> lol wtf... :D  http://www.izismile.com/img/img3/20100908/640/funny_derp_pictures_640_11.jpg  X-D
 811 2011-03-08 07:47:02 <genjix> xelister: have you ever been to http://boards.4chan.org/b/ ?
 812 2011-03-08 07:47:38 <mizerydearia> lawl http://chzderp.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hurr-durr-derp-face-fisting.jpg
 813 2011-03-08 07:48:28 <xelister> genjix: not too much
 814 2011-03-08 07:48:35 <xelister> IM A HOERS.  fucking lol
 815 2011-03-08 07:51:23 <mizerydearia> HAH http://derp.memebase.com/2011/02/24/hurr-durr-derp-face-radiohurrred/
 816 2011-03-08 07:53:07 <xelister> I dont get this one... http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1299568787007.jpg  huh?
 817 2011-03-08 07:55:17 <OneFixt> all i see is something photoshopped out to the left of the dog
 818 2011-03-08 07:55:19 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|jercos nathan7: poke for ops
 819 2011-03-08 07:55:43 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 820 2011-03-08 07:58:13 * xelister give channel operator privileges to nameless|
 821 2011-03-08 07:58:33 * xelister deops self
 822 2011-03-08 07:58:46 <xelister> oh ooops. nameless| reop me later
 823 2011-03-08 07:58:54 <mmagic> lol
 824 2011-03-08 07:59:05 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|...
 825 2011-03-08 07:59:09 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|ok
 826 2011-03-08 07:59:12 <xelister> <_<
 827 2011-03-08 07:59:18 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|sets mode +o xelister 
 828 2011-03-08 07:59:34 * xelister sets #bitcoin-dev mode +b *.*
 829 2011-03-08 07:59:49 BlueMatt has joined
 830 2011-03-08 08:00:02 <mizerydearia> Maybe http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/4/46/Anonymous_Anacap.png/800px-Anonymous_Anacap.png can be modified to have a bitcoin head?
 831 2011-03-08 08:00:02 * nameless !~root@weowntheinter.net|sets #bitcoin-dev MODE +e nameless*!*@weowntheinter.net
 832 2011-03-08 08:00:20 * xelister sets current difficulty 1000
 833 2011-03-08 08:00:27 * mizerydearia sets hair on fire
 834 2011-03-08 08:01:56 <mizerydearia> meh, I give up trying to link the spider image... it sucks anyway
 835 2011-03-08 08:03:12 TD_ has joined
 836 2011-03-08 08:03:31 dissipate has joined
 837 2011-03-08 08:03:31 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
 838 2011-03-08 08:03:31 dissipate has joined
 839 2011-03-08 08:03:49 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
 840 2011-03-08 08:03:49 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 11 hours and 42 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> wait, no, strike that, bad idea for internationalization....
 841 2011-03-08 08:04:21 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|;;seen nameless|
 842 2011-03-08 08:04:21 <gribble> nameless| was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 minutes and 18 seconds ago: * nameless| sets #bitcoin-dev MODE +e nameless*!*@weowntheinter.net
 843 2011-03-08 08:04:28 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|;;seen nameless|
 844 2011-03-08 08:04:29 <gribble> nameless| was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 seconds ago: <nameless|> ;;seen nameless|
 845 2011-03-08 08:04:35 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Aww
 846 2011-03-08 08:04:40 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|it's nto recusrive
 847 2011-03-08 08:04:46 <mmagic> hey..  dude who posted the mindf*ck image from 4chan. look under the car.
 848 2011-03-08 08:04:46 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|;;seen jercos
 849 2011-03-08 08:04:46 <gribble> jercos was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 9 hours, 58 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <jercos> Probably just full.
 850 2011-03-08 08:04:57 <OneFixt> ;;seen OneFixt
 851 2011-03-08 08:04:58 <gribble> OneFixt was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 9 minutes and 40 seconds ago: <OneFixt> all i see is something photoshopped out to the left of the dog
 852 2011-03-08 08:05:04 <OneFixt> ,,seen OneFixt
 853 2011-03-08 08:05:05 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself.
 854 2011-03-08 08:05:08 <OneFixt> ;;seen OneFixt
 855 2011-03-08 08:05:09 <gribble> OneFixt was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 seconds ago: <OneFixt> ,,seen OneFixt
 856 2011-03-08 08:05:15 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|;;seen gribble
 857 2011-03-08 08:05:16 <gribble> I have not seen gribble.
 858 2011-03-08 08:05:19 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|heh
 859 2011-03-08 08:05:55 <mizerydearia> amazing intro!! http://random.witcoin.com/p/342/asdfmovie2
 860 2011-03-08 08:06:24 <xelister> mmagic: what is under the car? the white car?
 861 2011-03-08 08:07:02 <mmagic> there's a demon face there.
 862 2011-03-08 08:07:16 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Woot-off!
 863 2011-03-08 08:07:31 <mmagic> i think there's something in the house window too but that might just be a lame compression artifact.
 864 2011-03-08 08:08:11 <mmagic> and the trees are weird, so i'm sure there's something i'm supposed to notice there but honestly, at a certain point, you cross from obscurity into just plain douchery
 865 2011-03-08 08:09:08 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 866 2011-03-08 08:09:20 <OneFixt> it could be that the rope holding that tire is tied waaaay up high
 867 2011-03-08 08:09:55 <mmagic> i'm looking at the trees way over on the left. they make a big X
 868 2011-03-08 08:10:01 <genjix> im updating my computer over ssh, but half way through i got timed out (forgot to run it in screen) and booted
 869 2011-03-08 08:10:13 <genjix> it was stuck at a license screen which i had to accept
 870 2011-03-08 08:10:19 <genjix> any ideas how to resume it?
 871 2011-03-08 08:10:41 <tcatm> debian?
 872 2011-03-08 08:10:56 <BlueMatt> the picture is designed to make people waste their time trying to find out the hidden thing
 873 2011-03-08 08:10:56 <genjix> yeah, ubuntu
 874 2011-03-08 08:11:12 <Aciid> genjix: apt-get upgrade again
 875 2011-03-08 08:11:16 <mmagic> dude there's a demon face under the car, honestly. :)
 876 2011-03-08 08:11:28 <genjix> Aciid: can't... it's locked
 877 2011-03-08 08:11:30 AmpEater has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 878 2011-03-08 08:11:34 <xelister> yeah I just think about the long swing thing
 879 2011-03-08 08:11:35 <Aciid> genjix: did you reboot?
 880 2011-03-08 08:11:38 <genjix> no
 881 2011-03-08 08:11:43 <mizerydearia> ooh, I just thought of an interesting idea...
 882 2011-03-08 08:11:43 <Aciid> if you have rebooted, its safe to remove the lock
 883 2011-03-08 08:11:49 <Aciid> genjix: then remove the lockfile
 884 2011-03-08 08:11:50 <genjix> but isn#t it bad to break a system upgrade?
 885 2011-03-08 08:11:54 <tcatm> genjix: kill the apt process
 886 2011-03-08 08:12:02 <genjix> ok...
 887 2011-03-08 08:12:03 <Aciid> it wont break anything
 888 2011-03-08 08:12:05 <mmagic> you have to zoom in with gimp or photoshop but it's got red eyes and a half-grin
 889 2011-03-08 08:12:08 <Aciid> if its not kernel upgrade.
 890 2011-03-08 08:12:17 <Aciid> if its kernel upgrade it wont boot without KVM
 891 2011-03-08 08:12:18 <mmagic> anyway, lost interest
 892 2011-03-08 08:12:22 <Aciid> or user interaction
 893 2011-03-08 08:12:28 <Aciid> ** if it breaks
 894 2011-03-08 08:12:29 <Aciid> ;P
 895 2011-03-08 08:12:42 <BlueMatt> or manually change /boot/grub/....conf
 896 2011-03-08 08:12:46 <genjix> ok thanks
 897 2011-03-08 08:13:03 <Aciid> genjix: kill process, remove lock file, then remember to screen it next time =)
 898 2011-03-08 08:13:26 <genjix> yeah i will :p
 899 2011-03-08 08:14:31 <genjix> i wonder why debian systems don't use aptitude instead of apt-get... it's clearly the better tool.
 900 2011-03-08 08:14:39 <Aciid> aptitude is slow
 901 2011-03-08 08:14:43 <Aciid> thats why people use apt-get
 902 2011-03-08 08:14:51 <genjix> in what way?
 903 2011-03-08 08:14:58 <Aciid> also apt-get is easier to call with non-interactive
 904 2011-03-08 08:15:22 <genjix> i only use aptitude in non-interactive
 905 2011-03-08 08:15:33 <BlueMatt> tcatm: is my patch for issue 48 (disconnect when ip changes) properly coded (I have a feeling its not, but it works) https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/716d228df076407ac8268e2357431e9c1f25b98a
 906 2011-03-08 08:15:34 <Aciid> aptitude is slower to parse the repo data somehow
 907 2011-03-08 08:15:40 <genjix> it's more logical (aptitude install/purge/search/show blaa)
 908 2011-03-08 08:16:00 <Aciid> I want pacman
 909 2011-03-08 08:16:02 <Aciid> in debian
 910 2011-03-08 08:16:37 <genjix> meh... whatever is used, i don't care as long as all systems use the same package manager
 911 2011-03-08 08:16:49 <genjix> make releases easier
 912 2011-03-08 08:16:55 <lfm> never happen
 913 2011-03-08 08:17:12 <genjix> we had LSB... there's hope.
 914 2011-03-08 08:22:07 AmpEater has joined
 915 2011-03-08 08:25:16 <tcatm> BlueMatt: hm I'm not sure what it does. maybe gavin or jgarzik know more about the networking stuff
 916 2011-03-08 08:25:30 <mmagic> lol topheavy buyer's market on mtgox.
 917 2011-03-08 08:25:36 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726])
 918 2011-03-08 08:26:13 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 919 2011-03-08 08:26:27 <BlueMatt> tcatm: should automatically reconenct to 8 new nodes when the total number falls, mostly for when an ip changes which typically causes a silent disconnect of all peers
 920 2011-03-08 08:27:20 TheAncientGoat has joined
 921 2011-03-08 08:27:24 <tcatm> total number falls == <8? so will it connect to 8 new nodes when it falls to 7?
 922 2011-03-08 08:27:47 <BlueMatt> tcatm: it should, yes.  That should be good to prevent Sybil attacks as well
 923 2011-03-08 08:28:18 <BlueMatt> tcatm: It works, I was just asking somone who knows something about C++ coding to see if it is even reasonable to declare ThreadOpenConnections at the top
 924 2011-03-08 08:28:33 <BlueMatt> tcatm: it should only be triggered when it loses a peer, so it shouldnt constantly be running
 925 2011-03-08 08:28:52 <tcatm> yes, but after one peer is lost, will it be connected to 15 peers?
 926 2011-03-08 08:29:24 <tcatm> (I'm asking because I don't know the code in net.cpp very well)
 927 2011-03-08 08:29:28 <BlueMatt> tcatm: yes, then it wont trigger the code.  Only if it has less than 8 total
 928 2011-03-08 08:29:53 <BlueMatt> tcatm: the if should be triggered every time a node disconnects/timouts
 929 2011-03-08 08:29:55 <BlueMatt> timeouts*
 930 2011-03-08 08:33:06 <tcatm> What about the loop in ThreadOpenConnections2? From what I see it never ends (except for fShutdown) so the reconnect code should belong there, shouldn't it?
 931 2011-03-08 08:34:13 <flok> occasionally poclbm says "Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC" -> should I worry?
 932 2011-03-08 08:36:04 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
 933 2011-03-08 08:36:23 <tcatm> BlueMatt:             if (nOutbound < nMaxOutboundConnections)
 934 2011-03-08 08:36:39 <tcatm> that line in said loop seems to already take care of the problem?
 935 2011-03-08 08:36:53 <BlueMatt> tcatm: yea, but I haven't seen it work...
 936 2011-03-08 08:36:58 <BlueMatt> tcatm: needs more testing
 937 2011-03-08 08:37:00 <BlueMatt> tcatm: thanks
 938 2011-03-08 08:37:55 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 939 2011-03-08 08:37:56 <tcatm> FWIW, I run a node on a dynamic IP behind NAT and it doesn't have problems with IP changes
 940 2011-03-08 08:39:34 <tcatm> A testcase for this problem might be a good idea so we can reproduce it easily.
 941 2011-03-08 08:40:32 <ArtForz> I think it depends on what your NAt box does on external IP changes
 942 2011-03-08 08:40:49 <ArtForz> if its not too stupid, it automagically sends RSTs for any open connections
 943 2011-03-08 08:40:56 <ArtForz> sadly, most consumer gear IS too stupid
 944 2011-03-08 08:41:00 <BlueMatt> tcatm: odd, is typically a problem for me
 945 2011-03-08 08:41:13 <BlueMatt> tcatm: what is your gateway?
 946 2011-03-08 08:41:47 <tcatm> A fritzbox (running Linux IIRC)
 947 2011-03-08 08:42:18 <mizerydearia> booo, someone deleted my post http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4281.msg62156
 948 2011-03-08 08:42:26 <BlueMatt> odd, my pfSense kills bitcoin when it gets restarted
 949 2011-03-08 08:44:15 <Aciid> ;;bc,stats
 950 2011-03-08 08:44:17 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112677 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 218 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 21 hours, 22 minutes, and 34 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77673.92049770
 951 2011-03-08 08:44:21 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 952 2011-03-08 08:44:23 <Aciid> its coming!
 953 2011-03-08 08:45:53 <[Tycho]> Who ?
 954 2011-03-08 08:46:47 <jgarzik> Why ?
 955 2011-03-08 08:48:24 <Aciid> _The_ Difficulty
 956 2011-03-08 08:48:27 <Aciid> =D
 957 2011-03-08 08:48:44 <xelister> 77k my ass
 958 2011-03-08 08:48:55 lolcat has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 959 2011-03-08 08:48:55 <xelister> its going below cost of electricity
 960 2011-03-08 08:49:35 <[Tycho]> Yeah, in some months i'll have to lower electricity cost...
 961 2011-03-08 08:50:20 <Aciid> calculate possible providers. takes 30mins and you can save ~$50 per month
 962 2011-03-08 08:50:31 <tcatm> at $.80/BTC 77k is still okay
 963 2011-03-08 08:51:29 <[Tycho]> "possible providers" ?
 964 2011-03-08 08:51:43 Diablo-D3 has joined
 965 2011-03-08 08:52:06 <Aciid> [Tycho]: Electric companies that is
 966 2011-03-08 08:52:13 <[Tycho]> Oh, that.
 967 2011-03-08 08:52:17 <Aciid> here in Finland we have loads of websites to do that
 968 2011-03-08 08:52:31 <[Tycho]> The only way to change electric company here is move to another city :)
 969 2011-03-08 08:52:45 <[Tycho]> ...with a hydroelectic plant :)
 970 2011-03-08 08:53:09 <Aciid> input postal codes -> select current company -> input readings
 971 2011-03-08 08:53:13 lolcat has joined
 972 2011-03-08 08:53:32 <Aciid> outcomes different styles of payments like seasonal and then there are predefined ones
 973 2011-03-08 08:53:38 <Aciid> and different companies
 974 2011-03-08 08:54:50 frewsxcv has joined
 975 2011-03-08 08:55:34 <frewsxcv> if there are any programmers who know javascript who want to have some fun, help develop my bitcoin firefox extension https://github.com/frewsxcv/Bitcoin-Prices
 976 2011-03-08 08:55:42 <mmagic> xelister: it's going below electricity for you? what the heck do you pay per kilowatt?
 977 2011-03-08 08:55:45 <mmagic> er..  kwh?
 978 2011-03-08 08:56:06 JMercha has joined
 979 2011-03-08 08:57:47 zylche has joined
 980 2011-03-08 08:59:11 <Aciid> frewsxcv: interesting, sorry but I dont know much javascript.
 981 2011-03-08 08:59:18 <Aciid> frewsxcv: maybe you should pull from here http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
 982 2011-03-08 09:00:28 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/markets.json
 983 2011-03-08 09:00:59 <frewsxcv> Aciid: right now i'm just pulling from mtgox, but i'd like to incorporate other sources
 984 2011-03-08 09:01:12 <frewsxcv> i don't know what other functionality to implement
 985 2011-03-08 09:01:17 <Aciid> tcatm: LOVE
 986 2011-03-08 09:01:29 <tcatm> Aciid: About -> API
 987 2011-03-08 09:01:47 <tcatm> there's more (and if something is missing, send an email and I might add it)
 988 2011-03-08 09:04:20 <mmagic> i guess all the speculators are unloading.
 989 2011-03-08 09:04:24 * mmagic points his finger and laughs.
 990 2011-03-08 09:12:42 ZaEarl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 991 2011-03-08 09:25:32 FellowTraveler1 has joined
 992 2011-03-08 09:25:45 <FellowTraveler1> hi all
 993 2011-03-08 09:27:44 zylche has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 994 2011-03-08 09:37:49 Raulo has joined
 995 2011-03-08 09:39:49 <Raulo> I analyzed the "mystery miner" hashpeed last several days
 996 2011-03-08 09:39:56 <Raulo> http://bitcoin.atspace.com/mysteryminer.html
 997 2011-03-08 09:40:10 <Raulo> For about two days he had 50% of global hashspeed
 998 2011-03-08 09:40:27 <Raulo> But he was also a significant player in February
 999 2011-03-08 09:41:23 <[Tycho]> Mysterious Miner is mysterious...
1000 2011-03-08 09:41:26 <Raulo> Now, unless he put a good cloaking device, he is offline
1001 2011-03-08 09:41:42 <tcatm> how did you do that? extranonce/coinbase?
1002 2011-03-08 09:41:56 <Raulo> walllet
1003 2011-03-08 09:42:11 <[Tycho]> May be he switchet to another?
1004 2011-03-08 09:42:15 <[Tycho]> *d
1005 2011-03-08 09:42:34 <Raulo> Maybe but other symptoms of activity are also off
1006 2011-03-08 09:42:46 <[Tycho]> Would be funny to trace the Evil Flooder too.
1007 2011-03-08 09:43:47 <Raulo> By the way, extranonce overestimates the effect of MM (ie there are also other peaple with the same fingerprint but not too many)
1008 2011-03-08 09:44:40 <[Tycho]> Exactly same ?
1009 2011-03-08 09:47:00 <Raulo> J've just checked the length. Let me find a suspicious coinbase which is not MM and you can analyze yourself
1010 2011-03-08 09:47:17 <[Tycho]> This one flooder - http://blockexplorer.com/address/18XeA7NhqwW3Kqvxo481bQJhug5oKTaVKg
1011 2011-03-08 09:47:44 <Aciid> thats so gay
1012 2011-03-08 09:47:48 <[Tycho]> So you are talking about big coinbase ?
1013 2011-03-08 09:48:37 <Raulo> Yes.
1014 2011-03-08 09:49:19 <[Tycho]> Can you show me a recent sample ?
1015 2011-03-08 09:51:42 <tcatm> http://media.bitcoincharts.com/coinbases.csv.bz2 in case it's useful for someone (height,hash,time,coinbase)
1016 2011-03-08 09:52:27 <Raulo> [Tycho]: I'm writing a script to find such examples. Just a minute
1017 2011-03-08 09:53:51 <Keefe> anyone know if slush accepts new users by request, even though registration is currently closed? i'd ask him, but he left earlier
1018 2011-03-08 09:54:09 <[Tycho]> Keefe, you can join my pool :)
1019 2011-03-08 09:54:15 <Keefe> link?
1020 2011-03-08 09:54:23 <Blitzboom> deepbit.net
1021 2011-03-08 09:54:29 <Keefe> oh, lol
1022 2011-03-08 09:54:37 <Keefe> already did. was going to try more than one
1023 2011-03-08 09:55:24 <Keefe> [Tycho]: i'd have used just yours but i want to track shares by worker
1024 2011-03-08 09:55:46 <Keefe> as i see it, only total account shares are reported
1025 2011-03-08 09:56:05 <Keefe> i suppose i could create additional accounts
1026 2011-03-08 09:56:24 <[Tycho]> Yes.
1027 2011-03-08 09:56:56 <[Tycho]> Well, may be it's time to add "shares per hour" to workers table.
1028 2011-03-08 09:57:05 <[Tycho]> There aren't much space left in it :(
1029 2011-03-08 09:57:13 <Keefe> has deepbit had any downtime in the last few days?
1030 2011-03-08 09:57:28 <[Tycho]> No.
1031 2011-03-08 09:58:02 <[Tycho]> Last planned pause was 2 Mar, for ~6 minutes.
1032 2011-03-08 09:59:11 <genjix> can i guarantee that a sha512 hash will always be 128 characters in length?
1033 2011-03-08 09:59:23 <[Tycho]> Is the number of shares per hour enough for you ?
1034 2011-03-08 09:59:42 <sipa> genjix: when represented in hex, yes
1035 2011-03-08 10:00:15 <FellowTraveler1> who would have the resources to be such a "Mystery Miner" ?
1036 2011-03-08 10:00:23 <Diablo-D3> Art.
1037 2011-03-08 10:00:29 <Diablo-D3> Wait, hes not very mysterious is he
1038 2011-03-08 10:00:51 <sipa> art does not have 200GH/s
1039 2011-03-08 10:00:57 BlueMatt has joined
1040 2011-03-08 10:00:58 <genjix> thanks sipa
1041 2011-03-08 10:01:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: he might now, actually
1042 2011-03-08 10:01:15 <Diablo-D3> he could have got his chip farm going
1043 2011-03-08 10:01:21 <sipa> he did
1044 2011-03-08 10:01:32 <Diablo-D3> I thought he was still having trouble with that
1045 2011-03-08 10:01:34 <sipa> at least a part of it
1046 2011-03-08 10:01:48 <sipa> but that kind of speed would require almost 1000 chips
1047 2011-03-08 10:01:50 <genjix> whats the max length for a bitcoin address?
1048 2011-03-08 10:02:25 <sipa> 35 characters, i think
1049 2011-03-08 10:02:34 <genjix> is that max max?
1050 2011-03-08 10:02:34 <Raulo> [Tycho]: Blocks 111561, 110811
1051 2011-03-08 10:02:45 <dazoe> i thought a BC address was a set length
1052 2011-03-08 10:03:17 <Keefe> [Tycho]: i just want an easy way to see how much btc was earned by each worker
1053 2011-03-08 10:03:25 <genjix> dazoe: no, some can be longer than normal
1054 2011-03-08 10:03:37 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,stats
1055 2011-03-08 10:03:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112684 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 211 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 48 minutes, and 25 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77522.50388072
1056 2011-03-08 10:03:41 <dazoe> ahh
1057 2011-03-08 10:03:45 <tcatm> genjix: 44
1058 2011-03-08 10:03:49 <sipa> 44?
1059 2011-03-08 10:03:49 <Keefe> i don't mind doing bit of simple math if needed
1060 2011-03-08 10:03:52 <genjix> thanks tcatm
1061 2011-03-08 10:03:54 <sipa> what?
1062 2011-03-08 10:04:06 <Raulo> [Tycho]: Also, there are some blocks in the MM wallet that have normal coinbase: 112417, 112452
1063 2011-03-08 10:04:17 <tcatm> I think that's the theoretical maximum length. I don't know if such a address could be valid.
1064 2011-03-08 10:04:35 <xelister> so next diff will be ~100,000 ?
1065 2011-03-08 10:04:38 <xelister> LETS CELEBRATE
1066 2011-03-08 10:04:43 <sipa> no
1067 2011-03-08 10:04:50 <sipa> it may even drop after the next one
1068 2011-03-08 10:04:58 <xelister> \o\ 100,000 DIFF  /o/   *fiesta*    we're all fucked lol  -o-  \o/
1069 2011-03-08 10:05:04 <Diablo-D3> lol
1070 2011-03-08 10:05:10 <sipa> tcatm: it's a base58 representation of a 160-bit hash, a 32-bit crc, and an 8-bit version number, that's 200 bits
1071 2011-03-08 10:05:14 <Diablo-D3> man
1072 2011-03-08 10:05:16 <Diablo-D3> I wish I was rich
1073 2011-03-08 10:05:17 <BlueMatt> it wont quite be that high, will it
1074 2011-03-08 10:05:18 <Diablo-D3> you know why?
1075 2011-03-08 10:05:18 * xelister swings @ piñata   ....  radeons! <3 <3
1076 2011-03-08 10:05:32 <Diablo-D3> I'd run a TV station in the US that ran good anime all day long
1077 2011-03-08 10:05:38 <sipa> tcatm: which corresponds to maximal 35 digits in base 58
1078 2011-03-08 10:05:50 <xelister> Diablo-D3: gits \o\
1079 2011-03-08 10:06:04 <Diablo-D3> gits <3
1080 2011-03-08 10:06:10 <xelister> gits XXX  \o/
1081 2011-03-08 10:06:12 <Diablo-D3> nothing is more amazing than the major's ass.
1082 2011-03-08 10:06:20 <xelister> wtf fags
1083 2011-03-08 10:06:26 <xelister> major (. )( .) s
1084 2011-03-08 10:06:38 <xelister> I would tap that
1085 2011-03-08 10:06:40 <xelister> with a firewire
1086 2011-03-08 10:06:43 <Diablo-D3> only in the manga does she have sizable tits.
1087 2011-03-08 10:06:54 <Diablo-D3> they're more action oriented in the series.
1088 2011-03-08 10:07:00 <xelister> I HAVE THE FUCKING MANGA BITCHES
1089 2011-03-08 10:07:11 <xelister> who's the man
1090 2011-03-08 10:07:11 <Diablo-D3> with or without the lesbian sex scene on the boat?\
1091 2011-03-08 10:07:13 <Keefe> sipa: you're not accouting for the funky padding the mainline impl uses
1092 2011-03-08 10:07:16 <xelister> with
1093 2011-03-08 10:07:19 <Diablo-D3> niiice.
1094 2011-03-08 10:07:26 <xelister> >16 mm² skin
1095 2011-03-08 10:07:27 <Diablo-D3> they took it out of the original US print
1096 2011-03-08 10:07:38 <sipa> Keefe: hmm, should investigate that
1097 2011-03-08 10:07:41 <Keefe> one of my pet peeves that the base58 encoder/decoder wasn't done perfectly
1098 2011-03-08 10:07:44 <xelister> Blaarahrhrhrhr children, dont look at tits.  Look at guns and murder instead.
1099 2011-03-08 10:07:46 <Diablo-D3> xelister: btw, you do know I run miotd, right?
1100 2011-03-08 10:08:06 <xelister> miowhat?
1101 2011-03-08 10:08:28 <xelister> midgets Information Of The Day ?
1102 2011-03-08 10:08:46 <eps1> love that site
1103 2011-03-08 10:08:57 <Diablo-D3> xelister: mecha images of the day, you fool
1104 2011-03-08 10:09:01 <xelister> oh, mecha
1105 2011-03-08 10:09:15 <xelister> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at mchan.miotd.com.
1106 2011-03-08 10:09:24 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats permadead
1107 2011-03-08 10:09:40 <xelister> btw USA
1108 2011-03-08 10:09:43 <xelister> USAAAAAAfags
1109 2011-03-08 10:09:48 <xelister> acquired rights for gits3
1110 2011-03-08 10:10:01 <xelister> it will probably blow ass, be about terrorists, and no sex because the omg children
1111 2011-03-08 10:10:25 <xelister> well ok it is always about terrorists, but it will be about terrorists in some stupid way, with gay usaflag waving in the wind in background at end
1112 2011-03-08 10:10:36 <xelister> or?  any chance for positive surprise?
1113 2011-03-08 10:10:38 <Diablo-D3> xelister: erm, you do realize there is no third season, right?
1114 2011-03-08 10:10:57 <Diablo-D3> they opted for the ova movie instead, solid state society
1115 2011-03-08 10:11:10 <xelister> wikipedia says some usafags acquired some rights from Mamoru.  I suppose thoes are not rights to his wife
1116 2011-03-08 10:11:26 TheAncientGoat has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1117 2011-03-08 10:11:32 TheAncientGoat has joined
1118 2011-03-08 10:11:33 <Diablo-D3> sss is really good
1119 2011-03-08 10:11:35 <xelister> meh anyway I think they will fuck it up.
1120 2011-03-08 10:11:39 <xelister> hollywood.
1121 2011-03-08 10:11:53 <xelister> Mamoru still has rights to other things of that franchise?
1122 2011-03-08 10:11:56 <Diablo-D3> what, for the live action US movie?
1123 2011-03-08 10:11:59 <Diablo-D3> thats dead iirc
1124 2011-03-08 10:12:10 <Keefe> [Tycho]: if i get multiple workers running right now on my account, before you implement per-worker btc/shares accounting, will current work be divided retroactively when you do implement it? or only from then forward?
1125 2011-03-08 10:12:54 <xelister> good I suppose
1126 2011-03-08 10:13:06 <xelister> heh why usafags removed boobies in USA version
1127 2011-03-08 10:13:28 <Diablo-D3> because the manga publisher didnt want to go for the adult rating
1128 2011-03-08 10:13:41 <xelister> stupid move
1129 2011-03-08 10:13:48 <Diablo-D3> the re-release was done by a different publisher (that bought the first one)
1130 2011-03-08 10:13:52 <Diablo-D3> well, not "stupid"
1131 2011-03-08 10:13:56 <Diablo-D3> just afraid of puritans
1132 2011-03-08 10:13:58 <[Tycho]> Keefe, yes, the stats are saved from the very beginning. I hope so.
1133 2011-03-08 10:14:11 <xelister> perhaps more young audience would then buy it for curiosity
1134 2011-03-08 10:14:13 <Keefe> great
1135 2011-03-08 10:14:25 <[Tycho]> Keefe, so you want stats for much more than last hours ?
1136 2011-03-08 10:14:28 <BlueMatt> should we increase MAX_OUTBOUT_CONNECTIONS to something more th 8 by default and make it calculated based on -maxconnections?
1137 2011-03-08 10:14:42 <Diablo-D3> xelister: well, its not like you're missing much
1138 2011-03-08 10:14:45 <Keefe> a running total of btc or shares per worker is what i'd like to see
1139 2011-03-08 10:14:45 <Diablo-D3> its not even really plot related
1140 2011-03-08 10:14:58 <xelister> Oh dad please can I have that cool book please?   Weeeel ok sun.    STOP! POLICE!  *arrested for pedo*      heh.
1141 2011-03-08 10:15:16 <Diablo-D3> pedo? I dont think so
1142 2011-03-08 10:15:29 <Diablo-D3> theres nothing wrong with a father buying his son porn
1143 2011-03-08 10:15:52 <[Tycho]> Keefe, total for all the time ?
1144 2011-03-08 10:16:02 <Keefe> yes
1145 2011-03-08 10:19:20 <BlueMatt> maybe replace MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS with -maxconnections/10?
1146 2011-03-08 10:21:12 <[Tycho]> Keefe, no, at this moment shares from different workers are summed to one account. So it's not ready yet.
1147 2011-03-08 10:21:31 <Keefe> if you don't mind, i'll just try to create 5 more accounts
1148 2011-03-08 10:21:38 <Keefe> 1 for each of 6 workers
1149 2011-03-08 10:22:21 <[Tycho]> Yes, you can.
1150 2011-03-08 10:23:01 <BlueMatt> anyone mined on a 6990?
1151 2011-03-08 10:23:07 <[Tycho]> Shares history for each account is surely saved.
1152 2011-03-08 10:23:33 <molecular> ;;bc,stats
1153 2011-03-08 10:23:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112689 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 206 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 18 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77560.30266365
1154 2011-03-08 10:24:22 <[Tycho]> Raulo, thanks. I was curious if you are suspecting my blocks or not :)
1155 2011-03-08 10:25:10 <Raulo> [Tycho]: It's not a complete list. There is about 5-10% differences between the wallet and coinbase lists
1156 2011-03-08 10:26:21 noagendamarket has joined
1157 2011-03-08 10:27:40 <BlueMatt> Assuming someone is able to get enough ips to hold 75% of the total network, you need 25 outbound connections to have a .1% chance of getting a node other than an attacker
1158 2011-03-08 10:27:52 <BlueMatt> So...should we not do 1/4 of the -maxconnections as outbound?
1159 2011-03-08 10:34:14 <Raulo> [Tycho]: Actually, looking back in time it seems the lists are uncorrelated. Only starting with about 108500 block they start to become correlated but large correlation is only after 110000 when the hashspeed of MM become large
1160 2011-03-08 10:34:56 <molecular> BlueMatt, how do you mean? you already have a 25% change with one connection, no?
1161 2011-03-08 10:35:13 <[Tycho]> Raulo, he was using another client, may be.
1162 2011-03-08 10:35:17 <molecular> BlueMatt, or do you mean get 25 connections that are all non-attacker?
1163 2011-03-08 10:35:42 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: that sounds wrong
1164 2011-03-08 10:36:31 <molecular> BlueMatt, the chance to get a non-attacker connection with 25 connections is 99.92%
1165 2011-03-08 10:36:49 <ArtForz> one connection has a 0.75 chance, 2 are 0.75**2 ...
1166 2011-03-08 10:37:01 <sipa> somehow we're referring to MM as attacker now?
1167 2011-03-08 10:37:06 <ArtForz> no
1168 2011-03-08 10:37:08 <molecular> "chance of getting a node other than an attacker"
1169 2011-03-08 10:37:12 <ArtForz> he was discussing a sybil attack
1170 2011-03-08 10:37:22 <ArtForz> mine is chance of getting attacker-only nods
1171 2011-03-08 10:37:35 <sipa> oh nvm
1172 2011-03-08 10:37:37 <ArtForz> so do 1- for "at least 1 non-attacker node"
1173 2011-03-08 10:37:38 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1174 2011-03-08 10:37:38 <molecular>  1.0-pow(0.75,25) =  0.9992
1175 2011-03-08 10:37:43 <ArtForz> yep
1176 2011-03-08 10:39:32 <ArtForz> anyways, [Tycho] yeah, I noticed your pool is creating unusual bnExtraNonce ;)
1177 2011-03-08 10:40:05 <molecular> finding a block is like throwing 18 dice and all come up 6
1178 2011-03-08 10:40:27 <molecular> I use that to explain to non-geek friend what the fuck is taking so long ;)
1179 2011-03-08 10:40:30 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
1180 2011-03-08 10:41:14 <sipa> one in 238761895854380 hashes is a good one now
1181 2011-03-08 10:41:38 <sipa> so it's even more than 18 dice all 6
1182 2011-03-08 10:41:46 <ArtForz> yeah, but throwing 18.475 dice sounds weird
1183 2011-03-08 10:41:52 <sipa> 18.477!
1184 2011-03-08 10:41:54 <molecular> one in 101559956668416 18-dice-throws is all 6
1185 2011-03-08 10:42:02 <[Tycho]> ArtForz, glad to hear that my work was noticed :)
1186 2011-03-08 10:42:09 * ArtForz hands sipa 0.002 dice
1187 2011-03-08 10:42:13 <molecular> yeah, like 18 6-side dice and one coin ;)
1188 2011-03-08 10:42:26 <gribble> 55590.23763914
1189 2011-03-08 10:42:34 <sipa> good gribble
1190 2011-03-08 10:42:37 <sipa> kinda slow
1191 2011-03-08 10:42:48 <ArtForz> yea
1192 2011-03-08 10:43:09 slush has joined
1193 2011-03-08 10:43:22 <slush> da2ce7: what's the problem with pool payouts?
1194 2011-03-08 10:44:11 <molecular> one slightly biased coin
1195 2011-03-08 10:44:12 <slush> da2ce7: pool pays amounts above threshold rounded to 0.01. The rest is still on your site, I don't keep it for myself
1196 2011-03-08 10:44:49 <sipa> molecular: a better approximation is having 18 7-sided dice coming up with all the same number
1197 2011-03-08 10:45:07 <sipa> 232630513987207 vs 238761895854380
1198 2011-03-08 10:45:51 <[Tycho]> I would say that hashing is like some kinematics. You can calculate precisely, how the dice will fall and what number will be on top, but you can't know how you should drop the dice to get that number.
1199 2011-03-08 10:47:02 TDX_ has joined
1200 2011-03-08 10:47:24 <ArtForz> so... 6990 release price is 699 :/
1201 2011-03-08 10:47:24 TDX_ is now known as TD
1202 2011-03-08 10:48:23 <[Tycho]> Not so nice, comparing to $450 for 5970
1203 2011-03-08 10:48:32 <ArtForz> yep
1204 2011-03-08 10:48:43 <ArtForz> well, cheapest retail was 500 iirc
1205 2011-03-08 10:48:48 <molecular> 5970 is down to $450?
1206 2011-03-08 10:48:54 <[Tycho]> I'm talking about used ones.
1207 2011-03-08 10:49:21 <molecular> have used ones always been 450?
1208 2011-03-08 10:49:51 <[Tycho]> Not always, but my "dealer" has that price atm.
1209 2011-03-08 10:50:25 <ArtForz> oh, and 6990 *requires* 2x8-pin
1210 2011-03-08 10:50:32 darsk1ez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1211 2011-03-08 10:50:51 <[Tycho]> 370W, serious business...
1212 2011-03-08 10:51:38 <Raulo> Isn't it breaking PCI-E specs?
1213 2011-03-08 10:51:54 <Raulo> 300W max?
1214 2011-03-08 10:52:00 <Aciid> afterburner was a sneaky bastard to enable "unofficialoverclocking"
1215 2011-03-08 10:52:11 <Aciid> had to copypaste the EULA to config files
1216 2011-03-08 10:52:13 <molecular> sipa, ok, but 6 sided dice are more imaginable
1217 2011-03-08 10:52:20 <Keefe> wow, i wasn't expecting 6990 to cost more than $600
1218 2011-03-08 10:52:35 <ArtForz> yes
1219 2011-03-08 10:52:43 <ArtForz> it breaks PCIe power specs
1220 2011-03-08 10:52:55 <ArtForz> oh, and 375W is at 0% powertune settings ...
1221 2011-03-08 10:52:58 <[Tycho]> Should it be outlawed ?
1222 2011-03-08 10:53:00 <Keefe> i suppose this helps 5970 resale value
1223 2011-03-08 10:53:05 <ArtForz> at 6970 voltage/clock it's ~450W
1224 2011-03-08 10:53:10 <[Tycho]> 0% of what ?
1225 2011-03-08 10:53:11 <molecular> wow
1226 2011-03-08 10:53:19 <ArtForz> 0% of stock power cap
1227 2011-03-08 10:53:40 <[Tycho]> Stock clock ?
1228 2011-03-08 10:54:05 <ArtForz> 69xx dynamically throttles to stay within power limits, powertune adjusts that limit
1229 2011-03-08 10:54:37 <ArtForz> 0% is pretty much set so it doesnt affect gaming but throttles furmark/occt/...
1230 2011-03-08 10:54:40 <[Tycho]> What's the limit range - 375-450 ?
1231 2011-03-08 10:54:52 <Keefe> ArtForz: can you tell whether the power circuits are designed to handle full 450W?
1232 2011-03-08 10:55:06 <ArtForz> 300-450 basically
1233 2011-03-08 10:55:25 <molecular> does bitcoin really need wxWidget 2.9?
1234 2011-03-08 10:55:25 <ArtForz> I was expecting AMD to actually make use of that to produce a at least nominally PCIe-compliant card
1235 2011-03-08 10:55:51 <molecular> wxWidgets 2.9 is still bleeding in gentoo :(
1236 2011-03-08 10:56:00 <ArtForz> basically fix powertune to -20% when 6+8-pin is connected, barely stying inside 300W envelope
1237 2011-03-08 10:56:11 <[Tycho]> And we were so surpised when 3dfx introduced the idea of external PSU for graphics board :)
1238 2011-03-08 10:56:14 darsk1ez has joined
1239 2011-03-08 10:56:48 <ArtForz> and only default to 0% and allow adjusting to +20% with 2*8-pin connected
1240 2011-03-08 10:57:44 <Aciid> woo clocked remote machine and it crashed
1241 2011-03-08 10:57:53 <Aciid> fffffuuuuu
1242 2011-03-08 10:58:03 <xelister> Aciid: HA HA HA HA HA
1243 2011-03-08 10:58:14 <[Tycho]> Looks like cooling system of those is better suited for tight packing :) http://oi52.tinypic.com/oj03yw.jpg
1244 2011-03-08 10:58:15 <xelister> Server distance: 300 km.  Problem?
1245 2011-03-08 10:58:16 <ArtForz> but looks like it wont be too bad for 3D
1246 2011-03-08 10:58:25 <Aciid> xelister: 50km
1247 2011-03-08 10:58:37 <ArtForz> benches between 570SLI and 580SLI, closer to 580SLI
1248 2011-03-08 10:58:40 <xelister> Aciid: btw hoy cou issue aticonfig to machine to which you remote-ssh'd ? didnt worked for me
1249 2011-03-08 10:58:50 <ArtForz> and is ~200W less than 580SLI (!)
1250 2011-03-08 10:58:56 <Aciid> hoy cou?
1251 2011-03-08 10:58:57 <Aciid> wtf
1252 2011-03-08 10:59:14 <molecular> xelister, set DISPLAY?
1253 2011-03-08 10:59:27 <Aciid> thats about it
1254 2011-03-08 10:59:31 <ArtForz> and ~120W less than 570SLI
1255 2011-03-08 10:59:41 <Aciid> in my case RDP
1256 2011-03-08 10:59:54 <Aciid> shit it didn't reboot.
1257 2011-03-08 11:00:03 <molecular> xelister, it works here. "export DISPLAY=:0"
1258 2011-03-08 11:00:13 <Raulo> Why is 69xx less power efficient than 5xxx? Is it just higher clock rates?
1259 2011-03-08 11:00:16 <[Tycho]> "clocked" ? What do you mean ?
1260 2011-03-08 11:00:28 <ArtForz> yes
1261 2011-03-08 11:00:38 <[Tycho]> Raulo, it has more transistors in it :)
1262 2011-03-08 11:00:39 <Aciid> [Tycho]: changed core clock
1263 2011-03-08 11:00:43 <ArtForz> they pushed voltage and clocks up compared to 5xxx
1264 2011-03-08 11:00:48 <[Tycho]> Aciid, for CPU ?
1265 2011-03-08 11:00:51 <Aciid> for GPU
1266 2011-03-08 11:00:59 <ArtForz> notice that at same voltage 5xxx and 6xxx OC about the same
1267 2011-03-08 11:01:21 <Aciid> heres the diffrence, nvidia crashes == driver fallbacks. ati crashes == powerout
1268 2011-03-08 11:01:33 <ArtForz> yep
1269 2011-03-08 11:01:38 <ArtForz> soft crashes are for sissies
1270 2011-03-08 11:01:46 <Aciid> =D
1271 2011-03-08 11:02:02 <Aciid> [Tycho]: CPU crashing on my mobo would cause a reboot
1272 2011-03-08 11:02:08 <Aciid> havent configured GPU to do so yet
1273 2011-03-08 11:02:08 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1274 2011-03-08 11:02:14 <Diablo-D3> heh
1275 2011-03-08 11:02:15 <Diablo-D3> well
1276 2011-03-08 11:02:20 <[Tycho]> I had driver restarted with ATI :)
1277 2011-03-08 11:02:22 <Diablo-D3> ati CAN do gpu save
1278 2011-03-08 11:02:25 <Diablo-D3> just not on linux
1279 2011-03-08 11:02:30 <ArtForz> basically it looks like they pushed up voltages and clocks to get better perf/mm²
1280 2011-03-08 11:02:38 <Diablo-D3> and most people turn it off on windows because 7's display server just restarts anyhow
1281 2011-03-08 11:02:49 sgornick has joined
1282 2011-03-08 11:02:52 <Aciid> "FUCK YEA 50MH/s more" *ZUP*
1283 2011-03-08 11:02:52 <[Tycho]> mm² ? Current per mm2 ? :)
1284 2011-03-08 11:03:05 <Raulo> 69xx is rather disappointing not only for hashing but for general GPU computing. 5xxx was a major breakthrough compared to 4xxx
1285 2011-03-08 11:03:19 <Diablo-D3> Raulo: because 69xx is just a preview of 7xxx
1286 2011-03-08 11:03:24 <Diablo-D3> and they felt like dicking with nvidia
1287 2011-03-08 11:03:44 <ArtForz> well, because 69xx is pretty much a stopgap design
1288 2011-03-08 11:03:55 <ArtForz> 7xxx castraded to have a sane die size at 40nm
1289 2011-03-08 11:03:59 <Diablo-D3> 79xx should be fucking epic
1290 2011-03-08 11:04:15 <Aciid> when is it coming out?
1291 2011-03-08 11:04:19 <ArtForz> notice that at 32nm a 6970 would be a smaller die than a 5870
1292 2011-03-08 11:04:22 <Diablo-D3> late next year
1293 2011-03-08 11:04:23 <[Tycho]> ...not to mention 149xx
1294 2011-03-08 11:04:46 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: well, technically we're up to 169xx
1295 2011-03-08 11:04:51 <ArtForz> my guess is we'll see the first 28nm parts late this year
1296 2011-03-08 11:04:59 <ArtForz> probably 6750/70
1297 2011-03-08 11:05:35 <Diablo-D3> x800 = 10800, x1000 = 11000, HD 2000 = 12000 etc
1298 2011-03-08 11:06:00 <ArtForz> there's a pretty big gap between 6670 and 6850, currently filled by 5770
1299 2011-03-08 11:06:06 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1300 2011-03-08 11:06:18 <ArtForz> my guess is they want to pull another 4770
1301 2011-03-08 11:06:26 <Diablo-D3> 4770 was glorious
1302 2011-03-08 11:06:44 <Diablo-D3> so was 5770 really
1303 2011-03-08 11:06:50 <Diablo-D3> and probably 6770 oo
1304 2011-03-08 11:06:50 <ArtForz> well, because it pretty much was the first gpu on 40nm
1305 2011-03-08 11:06:51 <Diablo-D3> *too
1306 2011-03-08 11:07:10 Omnifarious has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1307 2011-03-08 11:07:33 tower has joined
1308 2011-03-08 11:07:53 Omnifarious has joined
1309 2011-03-08 11:08:40 <ArtForz> 6750/70 are the only cards in 6xxx that are rebadged 5xxxs, and a mid-range gpu worked very well for testing a new process the last time
1310 2011-03-08 11:09:10 <ArtForz> the rebadge 6750/70 are also oem-only
1311 2011-03-08 11:10:09 tower is now known as towerX
1312 2011-03-08 11:10:25 <slush> ;;bc,stats
1313 2011-03-08 11:10:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112690 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 205 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 20 hours, 19 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77399.56316453
1314 2011-03-08 11:10:55 <Raulo> [Tycho]: I've just noticed you have also an unusual coinbase. With proportional payout it opens possibility of cheating. I should start to cheat to teach you a lesson :)
1315 2011-03-08 11:11:41 <slush> Raulo: where's the difference?
1316 2011-03-08 11:11:56 <Raulo> He has longer extranonce
1317 2011-03-08 11:12:08 <sipa> why does that allow cheating?
1318 2011-03-08 11:12:18 <slush> sipa: guessing round start
1319 2011-03-08 11:12:18 <[Tycho]> Raulo, i know about this possibility and going to deploy additional payout mode to address this.
1320 2011-03-08 11:12:27 <Raulo> Because one can know when the round starts
1321 2011-03-08 11:12:34 <ArtForz> it allows you to easily tell when his pool finds a block and new round starts
1322 2011-03-08 11:12:39 <sipa> oh right
1323 2011-03-08 11:13:08 <sipa> who was the one who came up with the exponential weighting of shares, btw?
1324 2011-03-08 11:13:26 <slush> sipa: Raulo, me or cosurgi
1325 2011-03-08 11:13:33 <sipa> it's genius :)
1326 2011-03-08 11:13:39 <slush> sipa: there were many proposals, I'm not sure who exactly told it firstly
1327 2011-03-08 11:13:47 <ArtForz> GTX590 is gonna be... interesting
1328 2011-03-08 11:14:27 <ArtForz> it'd pretty much have to be 2 stock 580s to compete against 6990
1329 2011-03-08 11:14:50 <ArtForz> except... 2 stock 580s are ~ 550W
1330 2011-03-08 11:14:59 <ArtForz> whoops.
1331 2011-03-08 11:15:38 <sipa> slush: where does the time constant 5 minutes come from, by the way?
1332 2011-03-08 11:15:49 <[Tycho]> Currently people tried to guess long blocks and switch to PPS, but strangely they end up getting LESS reward :)
1333 2011-03-08 11:16:06 <Blitzboom> haha
1334 2011-03-08 11:17:35 <[Tycho]> I'm collecting stats on many parameters, which sometimes gives me strange results.
1335 2011-03-08 11:17:42 <Raulo> [Tycho]: Yep. because more critical is when to join than when to stop
1336 2011-03-08 11:19:36 <[Tycho]> For example, i'm keeping some miners in slush pools for comparison and my rewars graphs show that during 36460 diffuculty i was getting same anount per hour as now with 55590 :) This is a random deviation, i think, but was unexpected.
1337 2011-03-08 11:23:30 <Aciid> I think I need to setup reverse SSH tunnel to my home network so I can WOL
1338 2011-03-08 11:23:53 <Aciid> stupid ISP modem should get bridget
1339 2011-03-08 11:24:47 Omnifarious has quit (Changing host)
1340 2011-03-08 11:24:47 Omnifarious has joined
1341 2011-03-08 11:25:02 <ArtForz> btw, VRM on 6990 looks decent
1342 2011-03-08 11:25:06 <ArtForz> 4 50A phases per GPU
1343 2011-03-08 11:25:29 <ArtForz> and with a bit more aluminum sitting on top
1344 2011-03-08 11:26:21 citiz3n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1345 2011-03-08 11:26:23 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1346 2011-03-08 11:29:30 <Diablo-D3> so it wont nuke itself?
1347 2011-03-08 11:32:03 <ArtForz> yeah
1348 2011-03-08 11:32:15 <ArtForz> looks like it should handle dual-6970 mode
1349 2011-03-08 11:32:47 <[Tycho]> dual-6970 &
1350 2011-03-08 11:32:48 <[Tycho]> ?
1351 2011-03-08 11:33:25 <Keefe> isn't that a little short of 450W?
1352 2011-03-08 11:33:42 <ArtForz> 6990 stock runs at 830MHz/1.12Vcore, flip the AUSUM switch (yes... really...) and it's 880MHz/1.175V
1353 2011-03-08 11:33:44 <Keefe> the vrm ratings i men
1354 2011-03-08 11:33:46 <Keefe> mean*
1355 2011-03-08 11:34:16 <Keefe> AUSUM, lol
1356 2011-03-08 11:34:41 <ArtForz> well, iirc 6970 uses the same 4*50A VRMs
1357 2011-03-08 11:36:11 <ArtForz> main diff, 6990 only has 5GHz ram like 6950
1358 2011-03-08 11:36:11 <RBecker> ;;bc,blocks
1359 2011-03-08 11:36:12 <gribble> 112697
1360 2011-03-08 11:36:31 <ArtForz> so probably bad idea to try to OC ram
1361 2011-03-08 11:36:45 <RBecker> ;;bc,diff
1362 2011-03-08 11:36:46 <gribble> 55590.23763914
1363 2011-03-08 11:37:33 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: man
1364 2011-03-08 11:37:42 <Diablo-D3> why do they keep trying to screw up their 2x products
1365 2011-03-08 11:37:44 <Diablo-D3> one had slow gpus
1366 2011-03-08 11:37:47 <Diablo-D3> and now this one has slow memory
1367 2011-03-08 11:38:03 <ArtForz> no clue, I can't imagine using 6GHz ram chips would've increased cost much
1368 2011-03-08 11:38:32 <genjix> how come the github bitcoin release branch no longer spawns?
1369 2011-03-08 11:38:34 <ArtForz> my guess is thanks to the cramped design they simply couldnt route the mem buses properly
1370 2011-03-08 11:38:44 <genjix> why was this changed?
1371 2011-03-08 11:38:50 <ArtForz> still sucks
1372 2011-03-08 11:38:58 <Diablo-D3> genjix: ... spawns?
1373 2011-03-08 11:39:34 <Diablo-D3> [06:15:10] <Aciid> stupid ISP modem should get bridget
1374 2011-03-08 11:39:45 <Diablo-D3> what does a young boy dressed in a nun's habit have to do with this?
1375 2011-03-08 11:39:53 <genjix> spawn a new process
1376 2011-03-08 11:40:13 <sipa> do releases spawn processes?
1377 2011-03-08 11:40:20 * sipa was unaware
1378 2011-03-08 11:40:24 <genjix> before (for me) bitcoind would spawn a new process and return
1379 2011-03-08 11:40:34 <sipa> oh
1380 2011-03-08 11:42:08 <genjix> heh it's a bug
1381 2011-03-08 11:42:10 <genjix> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/94
1382 2011-03-08 11:42:52 <genjix> tcatm has a fix https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/96
1383 2011-03-08 11:44:13 <Aciid> Diablo-D3: =DDDD
1384 2011-03-08 11:44:48 <Aciid> Diablo-D3: that or reverse SSH tunnel
1385 2011-03-08 11:45:06 <Aciid> both are fine ಠ_ಠ
1386 2011-03-08 11:50:01 <genjix> genjix@l:~/src/bitcoin$ git fetch daemon daemon-mode
1387 2011-03-08 11:50:01 <genjix> From git://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin * branch            daemon-mode -> FETCH_HEAD
1388 2011-03-08 11:50:13 <genjix> how come that branch doesn't show up in my branches list?
1389 2011-03-08 11:50:33 <genjix> and i don't see any new commits in git log either
1390 2011-03-08 11:52:07 <Aciid> commit something?
1391 2011-03-08 11:53:29 molecular has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1392 2011-03-08 11:55:15 <genjix> ahh i need git checkout -b
1393 2011-03-08 11:55:55 molecular has joined
1394 2011-03-08 11:56:07 mmarker has joined
1395 2011-03-08 11:57:33 <slush> sipa: there is no particular reason for that time. It is compromise between cheating gain and usability for common miners.
1396 2011-03-08 11:57:49 <slush> sipa: Raulo proposed smaller time around 100 second, but it looks too aggressive for me
1397 2011-03-08 11:59:09 <slush> [Tycho]: the majority of people absolutely don't understand the probability. I'm not surprised that many of them are cutting themselves in reward by trying to cheat the system :)
1398 2011-03-08 11:59:29 <slush> well, not "cheat", but "optimize" ;)
1399 2011-03-08 11:59:46 <ArtForz> casinos love bad card counters ;)
1400 2011-03-08 12:00:06 <sipa> slush: noot and i did some calculations to find out how possible it still is to cheat
1401 2011-03-08 12:00:06 <Aciid> [Tycho]: any schelude on when would you work on additional stats?
1402 2011-03-08 12:00:21 <[Tycho]> Aciid, which one exactly ?
1403 2011-03-08 12:00:38 <[Tycho]> Tonight is long polling showtime :)
1404 2011-03-08 12:01:00 <eps1> what is this cheat?
1405 2011-03-08 12:01:02 <sipa> slush: and we found that neither switching from solo to pool after a given amount of time nor switching from pool to solo after a given amount of time are ever beneficial
1406 2011-03-08 12:01:23 <sipa> but maple had a very ahrd time calculating it, so maybe there are numerical errors
1407 2011-03-08 12:01:44 <slush> sipa: you mean the share based pool?
1408 2011-03-08 12:02:24 <sipa> slush: share based pool with exponential weighting
1409 2011-03-08 12:02:30 <slush> sipa: oh, or you mean the connecting _after_ some amount of time, as your graph proposed
1410 2011-03-08 12:02:31 mmarker has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1411 2011-03-08 12:02:37 <slush> cool
1412 2011-03-08 12:02:42 <sipa> yes
1413 2011-03-08 12:03:19 <Aciid> [Tycho]: if PPS then 'Reward" (accepted shares per block * 0.0008094946506995)
1414 2011-03-08 12:03:40 devon_hillard has joined
1415 2011-03-08 12:03:40 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
1416 2011-03-08 12:03:40 devon_hillard has joined
1417 2011-03-08 12:03:54 satamusic has joined
1418 2011-03-08 12:03:58 <Aciid> for somereason the 'Reward' is "none" even tho I understand how it works. but it would be nice to see per-block even on PPS
1419 2011-03-08 12:04:07 <Aciid> so you could track down on excel ^^
1420 2011-03-08 12:04:14 <devon_hillard> the 6990 is out, any thoughts so far?
1421 2011-03-08 12:04:17 <Aciid> so i dont have to ouput poclbm into file
1422 2011-03-08 12:04:30 <devon_hillard> 3072 stream processors
1423 2011-03-08 12:04:38 <[Tycho]> Aciid, PPS isn't related to blocks in any way.
1424 2011-03-08 12:05:07 <Aciid> [Tycho]: yes, but the accepted share count is neither logged :\
1425 2011-03-08 12:05:17 <[Tycho]> Mentioning PPS reward per block is misguiding.
1426 2011-03-08 12:05:17 <Aciid> so its kidna fckdup that can't keep stats of it personally
1427 2011-03-08 12:05:26 <devon_hillard> I think the 6990 is the first card after 5970 to get past 500MH/s
1428 2011-03-08 12:05:39 <Aciid> [Tycho]: how about PPS resolved per hour?
1429 2011-03-08 12:05:41 <devon_hillard> possibly close to 1GH/s
1430 2011-03-08 12:05:42 <Aciid> or something like that
1431 2011-03-08 12:05:43 <ArtForz> "meh"
1432 2011-03-08 12:06:06 <eps1> just a giga hash?, useless
1433 2011-03-08 12:06:14 <devon_hillard> for one card :p
1434 2011-03-08 12:06:18 <sipa> slush: no idea which graph you mean, btw
1435 2011-03-08 12:06:21 <ArtForz> a bit more efficient than 6850, worse than 5870, and at $699 not exactly a bargain
1436 2011-03-08 12:06:29 <[Tycho]> Today i'll  planning to add account's shares-per-day stats or may be even lifetime shares.
1437 2011-03-08 12:06:44 <devon_hillard> ArtForz: have you tested it?
1438 2011-03-08 12:06:58 <ArtForz> nope
1439 2011-03-08 12:07:07 <Aciid> [Tycho]: Thank you so much
1440 2011-03-08 12:07:18 <devon_hillard> ArtForz: do you know some raw MH/s numbers?
1441 2011-03-08 12:07:20 <ArtForz> just read the reviews, it's pretty damn obvious
1442 2011-03-08 12:07:36 <devon_hillard> ArtForz: is is reviewed on the bitcoin forum?
1443 2011-03-08 12:07:41 <ArtForz> who cares?
1444 2011-03-08 12:07:53 <Aciid> 6990 $700 ? =D
1445 2011-03-08 12:07:56 <ArtForz> oh, and it's a cooling disaster
1446 2011-03-08 12:08:34 <devon_hillard> so the 5970 is still good bargain at $400?
1447 2011-03-08 12:08:36 <[Tycho]> Ñooling disaster if used in closed space ?
1448 2011-03-08 12:08:44 <devon_hillard> or that's the price I found in stores in Europe
1449 2011-03-08 12:08:47 <Aciid> the fan is in the middle
1450 2011-03-08 12:08:51 <ArtForz> yep
1451 2011-03-08 12:08:56 <Aciid> how the think air is going to get there...
1452 2011-03-08 12:09:04 <slush> sipa: oh, it was graph posted to forum thread
1453 2011-03-08 12:09:09 <Aciid> I need to make plastic guides inside my case for that?
1454 2011-03-08 12:09:09 <ArtForz> which means you pretty much *need* a side-panel mounted intake fan
1455 2011-03-08 12:09:28 <Aciid> I have one at the side, one at the bottom, two at the front.
1456 2011-03-08 12:09:33 <Aciid> and one at the back
1457 2011-03-08 12:09:42 <Aciid> still need few on the top
1458 2011-03-08 12:09:45 <ArtForz> would also be a good idea to reverse front bottom intake fan to exhaust, because otherwise you'll be working against the exhaust stream from the ass-end of the card
1459 2011-03-08 12:09:47 <sipa> slush: but you have reason to believe there is still (maybe only marginal) a way to cheat>
1460 2011-03-08 12:09:48 <[Tycho]> May be removing case covers will help.
1461 2011-03-08 12:09:51 <sipa> ?
1462 2011-03-08 12:10:00 <ArtForz> and the thing is LOUD
1463 2011-03-08 12:10:14 <devon_hillard> water cooling?
1464 2011-03-08 12:10:15 <ArtForz> as in, 5970-at-100% loud
1465 2011-03-08 12:10:17 * [Tycho] is not using case covers at all ever :)
1466 2011-03-08 12:10:25 <ArtForz> and thats using the stock fan profile
1467 2011-03-08 12:10:38 <ArtForz> it probably breaks 80dB at 100% ...
1468 2011-03-08 12:10:41 <slush> sipa: yes, but very marginal. There is only one method how to fully avoid cheating - give all 50BTC to the worker who found the block ;)
1469 2011-03-08 12:10:47 <xelister> ArtForz: what is best,  75C/70%fan or 80C/60% or 85C/50% ?
1470 2011-03-08 12:10:49 <devon_hillard> water cooling can get loud too, but the radiators can be made bigger and strapped to the outside of the case
1471 2011-03-08 12:10:56 <xelister> ArtForz: for fan and card long livelty
1472 2011-03-08 12:11:07 <andrew12> gr
1473 2011-03-08 12:11:15 <slush> sipa: score based mining is in the middle between absolutely-cheat-proof system (50 BTC for winner) and cheating-possible (share based system)
1474 2011-03-08 12:11:19 <ArtForz> I'd prefer 75°C/70%
1475 2011-03-08 12:11:21 <andrew12> why is no one else ever on in the mornings
1476 2011-03-08 12:11:30 <[Tycho]> slush, also hiding all blocks and paying per day, may be :)
1477 2011-03-08 12:11:35 <ArtForz> maybe 77°C/65%
1478 2011-03-08 12:11:39 <sipa> slush: that's indeed my intuition, but the calculation had a different result
1479 2011-03-08 12:11:52 <ArtForz> I keep my 5970s at 77°C core
1480 2011-03-08 12:11:58 <slush> [Tycho]: no, it does not help
1481 2011-03-08 12:12:01 <sipa> so i wonder if it's wrong, inaccurate, or really a flawless system :)
1482 2011-03-08 12:12:13 <slush> [Tycho]: there is still possible to detect new round by sniffing p2p protocol
1483 2011-03-08 12:12:23 <sipa> slush: btw, http://sipa.be/static/bitcoin/poolcalc.txt
1484 2011-03-08 12:12:23 <nextgens> devon_hillard> where did you find those cards at that price? :)
1485 2011-03-08 12:12:43 <devon_hillard> nextgens: online shops, those few that still stock them
1486 2011-03-08 12:12:48 <Aciid> [Tycho]: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/545/n8114379036208422406.jpg
1487 2011-03-08 12:12:49 <slush> sipa: the possibility of cheating is (thanks for math by Raulo and cosurgi) around 3% in the worst case
1488 2011-03-08 12:12:53 <[Tycho]> slush, but how you would find pool's blocks ? Pool may inject them in p2p from different ips
1489 2011-03-08 12:12:54 <devon_hillard> nextgens: I'd be greatful for a tip if you have it
1490 2011-03-08 12:12:56 <Aciid> car intake fan's rock
1491 2011-03-08 12:13:11 <[Tycho]> Nice fan.
1492 2011-03-08 12:13:19 <Aciid> http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showpost.php?p=10584087&postcount=2
1493 2011-03-08 12:13:21 <Aciid> not mine
1494 2011-03-08 12:13:25 <slush> [Tycho]: as the pool is going more significant, there is more probable that new block is from the pool
1495 2011-03-08 12:13:30 <Aciid> theres loads of that kind of mods around
1496 2011-03-08 12:13:42 <Aciid> I have an aluminium car fan , but its too efficient
1497 2011-03-08 12:13:50 <[Tycho]> I don't like noise, so i don't have any fans in my PCs except for mining rig.
1498 2011-03-08 12:13:52 <slush> [Tycho]: you can still have more IPs, but you can combine more types of attack to detect that
1499 2011-03-08 12:13:53 <devon_hillard> slush: what % of the network is your pool now?
1500 2011-03-08 12:14:09 <slush> [Tycho]: in fact, Raulo was able to detect pool blocks after few hours :)
1501 2011-03-08 12:14:27 <slush> devon_hillard: <10%
1502 2011-03-08 12:14:32 <[Tycho]> slush, few hours after what ?
1503 2011-03-08 12:14:38 <Aciid> http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6990-review/23
1504 2011-03-08 12:14:44 <Aciid> 1/4 better stock than 5970
1505 2011-03-08 12:14:48 <slush> [Tycho]: after I closed the stats
1506 2011-03-08 12:14:53 <Aciid> *1/5
1507 2011-03-08 12:14:55 <slush> ...delayed the stats
1508 2011-03-08 12:15:00 <sipa> slush: your site says 100GH/s, and my network speed estimate is 700GH/s :)
1509 2011-03-08 12:15:11 <[Tycho]> slush, but you are sending blocks from known IP ?
1510 2011-03-08 12:15:12 <slush> sipa: then 1/7 of the network :)
1511 2011-03-08 12:15:25 <slush> [Tycho]: Then I moved the IP, but I know it is still easy to detect
1512 2011-03-08 12:15:45 <ArtForz> meh, just use a cluster of papst 4114 N/2H8P
1513 2011-03-08 12:15:50 <slush> [Tycho]: and in all cases - it is security by obscurity
1514 2011-03-08 12:16:12 <[Tycho]> Best way is to make cheating useless.
1515 2011-03-08 12:16:39 <[Tycho]> At this moment they managed to do that themselves, but there always can be some smart person.
1516 2011-03-08 12:17:21 <[Tycho]> And not only smart, but with considerable hashing power too.
1517 2011-03-08 12:18:27 <slush> sipa: nice calculations. I'll read it carefully on the evening
1518 2011-03-08 12:18:48 <sipa> those are just the formulas, which i hope are right
1519 2011-03-08 12:22:03 <slush> sipa: looks like hashrate is still back at normal?
1520 2011-03-08 12:22:39 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
1521 2011-03-08 12:22:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112702 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 193 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 hours, 11 minutes, and 34 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77460.98474191
1522 2011-03-08 12:23:17 <slush> sipa: I see that pool blocks are confirmed much slower than few days before
1523 2011-03-08 12:23:58 <sipa> let me add a 1-day estimate to the graph :)
1524 2011-03-08 12:24:03 <slush> ;)
1525 2011-03-08 12:25:36 <sipa> slush: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
1526 2011-03-08 12:25:54 <slush> super
1527 2011-03-08 12:26:06 <sipa> so it may be closer to 500GH/s again, indeed
1528 2011-03-08 12:26:17 <Aciid> is that huge drop because MM is off?
1529 2011-03-08 12:26:24 <sipa> most likely
1530 2011-03-08 12:26:37 <Aciid> scary
1531 2011-03-08 12:26:51 <slush> I think he earned a lot during those days :)
1532 2011-03-08 12:27:06 <[Tycho]> What is that sliding window ?
1533 2011-03-08 12:27:51 <sipa> [Tycho]: the estimates are based on a prediction using only past data, with an exponential window
1534 2011-03-08 12:28:15 <sipa> the sliding window is the more trivial way of guessing network speed, but it requires future data
1535 2011-03-08 12:28:17 <Aciid> is it normal to get a hardoncollider from statistics?
1536 2011-03-08 12:28:35 <sipa> so i just added it to verify the estimates, actually
1537 2011-03-08 12:28:40 <slush> 10k bots for $200 per day
1538 2011-03-08 12:28:55 <slush> I found the offer right now :)
1539 2011-03-08 12:29:06 <sipa> slush: here is an even more detailed view: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png
1540 2011-03-08 12:29:34 <slush> sipa: too much noise here. the 10k graph is better :)
1541 2011-03-08 12:30:26 <[Tycho]> What do you use for generating pngs ?
1542 2011-03-08 12:30:31 <slush> sipa: the daily jumps are normal or they are related to MM?
1543 2011-03-08 12:30:32 <sipa> gnuplot
1544 2011-03-08 12:31:03 <slush> sipa: I mean - are those jumps also in previous days?
1545 2011-03-08 12:32:05 <sipa> good question
1546 2011-03-08 12:32:37 <Aciid> http://gnuplot.sourceforge.net/demo_canvas/
1547 2011-03-08 12:32:39 <Aciid> cool
1548 2011-03-08 12:33:28 <[Tycho]> "Your browser does not support the HTML 5 canvas element", useless gnuplot :)
1549 2011-03-08 12:33:43 <genjix> i got a new haircut, and when my sister saw the new one she says "haha, your hairdresser must've been a gay man"
1550 2011-03-08 12:33:54 <genjix> it WAS a gay man... so what does that mean?
1551 2011-03-08 12:34:38 <[Tycho]> sipa, it's GMT ?
1552 2011-03-08 12:35:03 <sipa> [Tycho]: hmm, good question
1553 2011-03-08 12:35:51 <sipa> i think it is
1554 2011-03-08 12:35:58 <[Tycho]> It's strange that in the first half there are dips at midnight, and on a second half - peaks at midnight.
1555 2011-03-08 12:36:28 <Aciid> scheluded events?
1556 2011-03-08 12:36:50 <[Tycho]> Sleeping miners.
1557 2011-03-08 12:39:06 BlueMatt has joined
1558 2011-03-08 12:43:17 Strom has joined
1559 2011-03-08 12:44:18 <BlueMatt> molecular: ArtForz sorry, irc fail.  if an attacker has 75% of network, the probability of having all of your outgoing connections in 25 is .75^25 = 0.001 or .1%
1560 2011-03-08 12:44:35 <BlueMatt> all of your outgoing connections to the attacker*
1561 2011-03-08 12:44:38 <ArtForz> yea
1562 2011-03-08 12:45:20 <BlueMatt> so, I was thinking more than just 8 outgoing would make more sense
1563 2011-03-08 12:46:02 <BlueMatt> also, for better support, I was thinking basing outgoing conenction count on -maxconnections would make some sense
1564 2011-03-08 12:47:12 <BlueMatt> I said 25% just because that would give the default client of 100 connections a .1% chance of being susceptible to an attacker who "has" 75% of the network
1565 2011-03-08 12:51:07 TD_ has joined
1566 2011-03-08 13:04:15 <satamusic> welcome back :)
1567 2011-03-08 13:04:46 <AmpEater> Why thank you
1568 2011-03-08 13:19:24 mmarker has joined
1569 2011-03-08 13:21:02 neopallium has joined
1570 2011-03-08 13:23:51 AmpEater has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1571 2011-03-08 13:24:55 mmarker has quit (Quit: whoops)
1572 2011-03-08 13:26:48 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1573 2011-03-08 13:30:55 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1574 2011-03-08 13:32:30 BlueMatt has joined
1575 2011-03-08 13:35:00 AmpEater has joined
1576 2011-03-08 13:39:43 sabalaba has joined
1577 2011-03-08 13:51:40 <FellowTraveler1> seeking bitcoin client developers who may be interested in adding my API to your client.
1578 2011-03-08 13:51:58 <FellowTraveler1> Makes possible to issue and trade in digital currencies (including bitcoin) anonymously and untraceably.
1579 2011-03-08 13:55:31 <tcatm> url?
1580 2011-03-08 13:57:31 povik has joined
1581 2011-03-08 14:01:19 Necr0s has joined
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1584 2011-03-08 14:07:14 <FellowTraveler1> tcatm:  https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki
1585 2011-03-08 14:07:46 <flok> FellowTraveler1: have you heard of freenet?
1586 2011-03-08 14:07:54 <FellowTraveler1> flok yes.
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1590 2011-03-08 14:08:48 <flok> what is better of your solutioan than bitcoin over freenet?
1591 2011-03-08 14:09:07 <farzong> hjola
1592 2011-03-08 14:10:06 <FellowTraveler1> flok: bitcoin block chains are publicly auditable whether you trade them over freenet or not.
1593 2011-03-08 14:10:35 <FellowTraveler1> I propose to use bitcoin as the backing commodity since it is publicly auditable, and then use my project to provide the chaumian blinding so it becomes untraceable.
1594 2011-03-08 14:10:46 <FellowTraveler1> my project also allows other instruments but obviously the cash is most interesting.
1595 2011-03-08 14:11:00 <tcatm> sounds good. can you write a proof-of-concept client?
1596 2011-03-08 14:11:16 <FellowTraveler1> I have already posted a server, library, API, and command-line test client
1597 2011-03-08 14:11:33 <FellowTraveler1> no GUI client yet but you can definitely see it working and play with it, code to it, etc.
1598 2011-03-08 14:12:36 <farzong> open transactions library is awesome
1599 2011-03-08 14:13:27 <FellowTraveler1> I also find it interesting that untraceable cash makes it possible to solve issues of resource allocation on anonymous networks, and if bitcoin was used as backing for such, that means that bitcoin would become fully redeemable in network resources (giving it a value beyond its current "proof of work" value.)
1600 2011-03-08 14:13:50 <farzong> hmm interesting
1601 2011-03-08 14:14:14 <FellowTraveler1> in fact I can see how the three things (bitcoin, anonymous networks, and OT) all solve each other's problems in a circle
1602 2011-03-08 14:14:54 <farzong> cool
1603 2011-03-08 14:15:14 <FellowTraveler1> Here are examples of how they circularly solve each other's problems:
1604 2011-03-08 14:15:25 <FellowTraveler1> Bitcoin is fully distributed and decentralized, but it's not anonymous or untraceable, and in fact it's publicly auditable.
1605 2011-03-08 14:15:25 <FellowTraveler1> Open Transactions provides untraceability and anonymity, but you have to have somewhere to store the gold.
1606 2011-03-08 14:15:25 <FellowTraveler1> Bitcoin solves the problem of storing the gold (through its distributed nature), but it has no intrinsic value.
1607 2011-03-08 14:15:27 <FellowTraveler1> An anonymous network can hide your web activities, including your Bitcoin messages to each other and your communications with an Open Transactions server. But unfortunately, there are problems of resource allocation on an anonymous network. (Because you normally can't pay for something anonymously...)
1608 2011-03-08 14:15:27 <FellowTraveler1> ...Unless you have digital cash. Therefore Open Transactions can be used to solve problems of resource allocation on anonymous networks, meanwhile the anonymous network is what makes it possible to safely hide an Open Transactions server.
1609 2011-03-08 14:15:27 <FellowTraveler1> Furthermore, the anonymous network also provides REAL value to Bitcoin (besides just "proof of work") since now the Bitcoins are redeemable in network resources. Thus it solves the problem of intrinsic value in the Bitcoin.
1610 2011-03-08 14:15:27 <FellowTraveler1> No issuer can ever lie about any currency in circulation, since the backing funds are publicly auditable.
1611 2011-03-08 14:15:50 AmpEater has joined
1612 2011-03-08 14:16:49 <tcatm> where would the bitcoin wallet be stored?
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1615 2011-03-08 14:18:37 <FellowTraveler1> any user would have their bitcoin wallet like normal. But additionally, any issuer on OT would also have their bitcoin wallet, and those reserves would be available on OT for instruments.
1616 2011-03-08 14:18:48 <FellowTraveler1> and you trust the issuers because their reserves are publicly auditable
1617 2011-03-08 14:18:51 <FellowTraveler1> (unlike gold)
1618 2011-03-08 14:18:58 <FellowTraveler1> and can't be confiscated (unlike gold)
1619 2011-03-08 14:19:21 <tcatm> = central entity?
1620 2011-03-08 14:19:24 <FellowTraveler1> then any user or issuer could exchange in or out from normal bitcoin, to instrumented bitcoin (markets, payment plans, cheques, cash, vouchers, accounts, etc)
1621 2011-03-08 14:19:52 <FellowTraveler1> with untraceable cash, you have to have a signer (to blind sign the tokens)
1622 2011-03-08 14:20:21 <FellowTraveler1> my proposal is to federate those servers (like diaspora)
1623 2011-03-08 14:20:50 <FellowTraveler1> plus the same issuer can issue the same currency on multiple servers, and also the same currency could be distributed across multiple issuers
1624 2011-03-08 14:20:52 <gavinandresen> I was thinking just yesterday about how to make bitcoin reserves publicly auditable, and it should actually be pretty easy...
1625 2011-03-08 14:21:02 <FellowTraveler1> and a single pile of gold could be distributed across multiple servers
1626 2011-03-08 14:21:12 <FellowTraveler1> it supports basket currencies, etc see the articles and diagrams.
1627 2011-03-08 14:21:29 <FellowTraveler1> the FAQ has an article about federated/distributed/client/server/p2p nature of OT
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1638 2011-03-08 14:33:17 <slush> Now it looks like everybody with hole in ass have own pool :)
1639 2011-03-08 14:34:11 <tcatm> someone should make a lottery pool
1640 2011-03-08 14:34:21 <genjix> FellowTraveler1: i guess being able to share wallets would make that work nicely
1641 2011-03-08 14:34:28 * slush thinking about doing pool of the pools
1642 2011-03-08 14:34:32 <ArtForz> someone should make a meta-pool
1643 2011-03-08 14:34:36 <genjix> i.e require confirmation from 2 keys to spend or receive a coin
1644 2011-03-08 14:34:49 <tcatm> bitcoin is the meta-pool
1645 2011-03-08 14:35:07 <ArtForz> well, that would make bitcoin the meta-meta-pool ;)
1646 2011-03-08 14:35:11 <slush> ArtForz: Bad side is that metapool users have to trust metapool operator & all operators of the pools
1647 2011-03-08 14:35:35 <genjix> slush: how about stats on all the pools
1648 2011-03-08 14:35:45 <genjix> so people can better shop around :p
1649 2011-03-08 14:35:48 <genjix> get a bargain
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1656 2011-03-08 14:39:29 <molecular> MysteryMine has left?
1657 2011-03-08 14:39:41 <slush> molecular: yes
1658 2011-03-08 14:39:46 <molecular> interesting
1659 2011-03-08 14:39:52 <molecular> any more insights?
1660 2011-03-08 14:41:04 <slush> molecular: at 99% it was botnet
1661 2011-03-08 14:41:19 <molecular> ok. any thoughts on why he stopped?
1662 2011-03-08 14:41:23 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1663 2011-03-08 14:41:34 <slush> not exactly
1664 2011-03-08 14:42:10 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1666 2011-03-08 14:42:54 <FellowTraveler1> maybe because he's sitting in this room and he heard you talking about him.
1667 2011-03-08 14:43:20 <FellowTraveler1> if I was running a botnet to mine bitcoins I think I'd probably sit in the bitcoin dev channel, anyway.
1668 2011-03-08 14:43:27 <slush> FellowTraveler1: He probably didn't ready discussion here
1669 2011-03-08 14:44:12 <FellowTraveler1> btw OT doesn't just do cash, but also has markets and other instruments, in case you wanted to be able to trade bitcoins for other asset types.
1670 2011-03-08 14:44:30 <FellowTraveler1> I know there are existing bitcoin markets, just FYI this software can be used for that purpose.
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1676 2011-03-08 15:03:34 <marktomarket> Hi... I just read this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3712.0 .. What is the groups concenus of Mt Gox? I am looking to purchase bitcoin and looking for the best way to do so in quantity. THANKS!
1677 2011-03-08 15:04:18 <tcatm> you can trust mtgox. ignore that thread.
1678 2011-03-08 15:04:34 <slush> marktomarket: unless you're scammer
1679 2011-03-08 15:04:36 <marktomarket> So this was a hoax?
1680 2011-03-08 15:07:03 <ArtForz> I've traded a decent 5-digit sum on mtgox so far, no issues
1681 2011-03-08 15:10:33 <marktomarket> Thanks ArtForz. I want to transfer FRN asap. Just wanted to see the reaction of the dev group about this. (if they had any knowledge)
1682 2011-03-08 15:13:05  is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-240-193-218.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
1683 2011-03-08 15:13:14 <Necr0s> My radeon fan dies last night :(
1684 2011-03-08 15:13:18 <Necr0s> died
1685 2011-03-08 15:13:40 <ArtForz> what card?
1686 2011-03-08 15:13:48 <Necr0s> Sapphire 5970
1687 2011-03-08 15:13:55 <ArtForz> wow, that sucks
1688 2011-03-08 15:13:56 <mmarker> Hmm. So, the SSE2 code I beat into submission....could it go faster if I don't make as many calls to it. Currently only doing one SHA256 hash per call to the ASM...was thinking of it doing the full SHA256(sha256()) that's needed
1689 2011-03-08 15:14:26 <Necr0s> Yeah, I tried to remove the shrouding to get to it and was unsuccessful.
1690 2011-03-08 15:15:08 <ArtForz> you have to completely remove the cooler to get to the fan :/
1691 2011-03-08 15:15:12 marktomarket has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1692 2011-03-08 15:16:07 <Necr0s> Doh.  I started doing that, and saw how much foam tape was going to need to seperate for that to happen...
1693 2011-03-08 15:16:28 <Necr0s> And even if I can get to it I probably can't fix it.
1694 2011-03-08 15:16:48 <TD> urgh. difficulty on the testnet has gone up again.
1695 2011-03-08 15:16:50 <TD> now it's 16.
1696 2011-03-08 15:16:56 <ArtForz> yeah
1697 2011-03-08 15:16:57 <TD> maybe we should hack the code so testnet difficulty never changes
1698 2011-03-08 15:17:01 <mmarker> TD: Yea, I find that very annoying for testing
1699 2011-03-08 15:17:08 <TD> no wonder i've been waiting so long for a block
1700 2011-03-08 15:17:18 <mmarker> TD: I also hack around it by using bitcoind and hacking my own IRC server and nodes :(
1701 2011-03-08 15:17:30 citiz3n has joined
1702 2011-03-08 15:17:46 <ArtForz> if its out of warranty best bet is to get a complete replacement cooler :/
1703 2011-03-08 15:18:23 <ArtForz> because getting that stupid fan is next to impossible
1704 2011-03-08 15:18:48 glassresistor has joined
1705 2011-03-08 15:19:14 <mmarker> ArtForz: bad design? Or "look the fan blew, time for a new card" design?
1706 2011-03-08 15:19:15 citiz3n has quit (Changing host)
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1708 2011-03-08 15:19:22 <ArtForz> nope
1709 2011-03-08 15:19:23 <Necr0s> :/
1710 2011-03-08 15:19:28 <Necr0s> Yea, no idea on warranty.
1711 2011-03-08 15:19:32 <ArtForz> probably got a bad fan
1712 2011-03-08 15:19:59 <ArtForz> if that a old card? first gen 5970s pretty much all had bad fans
1713 2011-03-08 15:20:51 <ArtForz> bearing noise from the start, dead after a few months
1714 2011-03-08 15:21:06 <Necr0s> I dunno, I got it from feebay.
1715 2011-03-08 15:21:20 <Necr0s> Didn't notice a noise at first, but it sure has one now.
1716 2011-03-08 15:23:17 <ArtForz> btw, fan from any reference 48xx and 58xx fits as well
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1721 2011-03-08 15:26:43 <farzong> curious.. is it accurate to say that at least 50% of the bitcoins in existence are controlled by fewer than 10 ppl ?
1722 2011-03-08 15:26:58 <bonsaikitten> farzong: quite likely yes
1723 2011-03-08 15:32:06 <[Noodles]> controlled? maybe you mean owned, but even if all coins are owned by a single person, where's the problem, as long as you can buy some?
1724 2011-03-08 15:33:15 <farzong> theres nothing wrong with it per se
1725 2011-03-08 15:33:28 <farzong> it would be cool if there were an exchange that had a proven reserve
1726 2011-03-08 15:34:05 <farzong> lets say an exchange is setup that holds at least 25% of all the bitcoins and it operates automatically - trading bitcoins at whatever the current bid/ask is
1727 2011-03-08 15:34:30 * BurtyB doesnt see how that could work
1728 2011-03-08 15:34:33 <farzong> then ppl are assured theres a liquid market as long as the exchange is up and has reserves
1729 2011-03-08 15:34:33 <[Noodles]> what current bid/ask?
1730 2011-03-08 15:34:42 <[Noodles]> mine, yours, mtgoxs?
1731 2011-03-08 15:34:50 <[Noodles]> those might be different
1732 2011-03-08 15:35:08 <farzong> yes.. ayone participating in the book
1733 2011-03-08 15:35:15 <[Noodles]> in which book?
1734 2011-03-08 15:35:25 <farzong> the exhanges book
1735 2011-03-08 15:35:36 <[Noodles]> there are several
1736 2011-03-08 15:35:41 <farzong> so?
1737 2011-03-08 15:35:42 <[Noodles]> which one to choose?
1738 2011-03-08 15:35:47 <farzong> they can either join or be separate
1739 2011-03-08 15:35:56 <farzong> the point is theres at least one exchange with proven reserves
1740 2011-03-08 15:36:36 <[Noodles]> feel free to create one
1741 2011-03-08 15:36:46 <farzong> sure, i have millions of bitcoins!
1742 2011-03-08 15:36:48 <farzong>  :)
1743 2011-03-08 15:37:07 Lachesis has joined
1744 2011-03-08 15:37:11 <[Noodles]> you don't need millions to start with
1745 2011-03-08 15:37:16 <farzong> ppl want to be assured that a small 'cabal' cant flood the market or hoarde it
1746 2011-03-08 15:37:28 larsig has joined
1747 2011-03-08 15:37:43 <[Noodles]> well, the market is still super-small, anyone with a decent amount of money can flood it
1748 2011-03-08 15:39:10 <farzong> yeah.. i mean one way to bootstrap bitcoin is to simply distribute billions of itcoins (up the limit from 21 million) to ppl on an invite-basis for free.. representing some non-trivial embedded computation so it cant be trivially replicated.. then there is very little friction for ppl to start using an alternate currency (they dont have to buy-in and expost themselves to market risk)
1749 2011-03-08 15:41:09 <farzong> i have 150 btc
1750 2011-03-08 15:42:26 <farzong> of course you can also have built-in decay.. some notes lose value at a low rate, so it encourages ppl to spend the money they got for free
1751 2011-03-08 15:42:33 <farzong> and voila a thriving market
1752 2011-03-08 15:43:05 <farzong> you could probably calculate the optimal mix of decays to achieve equilibrium
1753 2011-03-08 15:43:23 <EvanR-work> so its like an accelerated version of USD
1754 2011-03-08 15:43:49 <EvanR-work> and theres already a cabal
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1756 2011-03-08 15:44:12 <farzong> ?
1757 2011-03-08 15:44:14 <EvanR-work> so you cant allay anyones fear unless youre prepared to lie ;)
1758 2011-03-08 15:44:37 <farzong> which cabal
1759 2011-03-08 15:44:45 <EvanR-work> wouldnt you like to know
1760 2011-03-08 15:44:51 <farzong> heh
1761 2011-03-08 15:45:09 <farzong> i dont know any cabals.. im happy to buy my bitcoins
1762 2011-03-08 15:45:17 <EvanR-work> me too. me too.
1763 2011-03-08 15:45:52 <farzong> EvanR-work: different from USD because theres a programmed expansion.. but the point is frictionless entry - coins are distributed in a viral way for free until equilibrium/bootstrap/global domination is reached. however no one can issue new coin by fiat
1764 2011-03-08 15:46:08 Kiba has joined
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1766 2011-03-08 15:46:40 <EvanR-work> giving away money in a random fashion is a pretty bad way to stimulate economic activity
1767 2011-03-08 15:47:00 <EvanR-work> most people wouldnt know what to do with it or would lose btc out of apathy
1768 2011-03-08 15:47:02 <farzong> when somethings value is difficult or impossible to calculate, theres a wider range of valuation. so youll have ppl trying to scoop up the currency flows in various ways betting that it will take off
1769 2011-03-08 15:47:31 <EvanR-work> is that a problem?
1770 2011-03-08 15:47:39 <farzong> EvanR-work: youd have providers selling things, so it would become aparent how to use them
1771 2011-03-08 15:47:53 <EvanR-work> you need providers first
1772 2011-03-08 15:48:00 <farzong> EvanR-work: no its a good thing. it means if theres a viral phenomenon, ppl will cleverly try to cash in
1773 2011-03-08 15:48:15 <EvanR-work> cash in, you mean start mining?
1774 2011-03-08 15:48:20 <farzong> they go hand-in-hand.. think of facebook. there are no facebook developers until there are facebook users,or apple..
1775 2011-03-08 15:48:43 <EvanR-work> there were facebook developers before facebook users
1776 2011-03-08 15:48:46 <farzong> EvanR-work: start trying to amass bitcoins (which are in abundant free supply)
1777 2011-03-08 15:48:52 <EvanR-work> apple predated apple fans
1778 2011-03-08 15:48:57 <farzong> yes yes.. my point is theres a bootstrapping process
1779 2011-03-08 15:49:08 <farzong> think of apple app store
1780 2011-03-08 15:49:14 <farzong> more users, more apps. more apps = more users
1781 2011-03-08 15:49:25 <farzong> right now theres high friction to becoming a bitcoin user
1782 2011-03-08 15:49:45 Zarutian has joined
1783 2011-03-08 15:49:46 <EvanR-work> spend the money on businesses rather than customers, then you get a return
1784 2011-03-08 15:49:50 <farzong> the method of distributing new currency (mining) isn't better than randomly distributing to anyone with a unique email acct
1785 2011-03-08 15:49:50 <sipa> i think it's even more visible at the developer side
1786 2011-03-08 15:50:22 <EvanR-work> mining isnt the method distributing new currency, most of it hasnt been distributed
1787 2011-03-08 15:50:32 <EvanR-work> the method is selling it for usd
1788 2011-03-08 15:50:37 <farzong> ermm
1789 2011-03-08 15:50:40 <EvanR-work> which is relatively easy right now
1790 2011-03-08 15:50:42 <Blitzboom> mining is a reward for strengthening the network
1791 2011-03-08 15:50:56 <Blitzboom> later on, fees will replace the reward
1792 2011-03-08 15:51:13 <sipa> no, mining is strengthing the network itself
1793 2011-03-08 15:51:15 <Blitzboom> do you think people would buy and run gpus for nothing?
1794 2011-03-08 15:51:30 <EvanR-work> it would have the same power as seti and home ;)
1795 2011-03-08 15:51:42 <sipa> and bitcoin was smart enough by design to link strengthening the network with initial distribution of money supply
1796 2011-03-08 15:52:19 <farzong> so the initial pool of currency doesnt need to have that much computation actually. you could generate 21 million unique coins and cap it in a couple weeks (using low-difficulty). then blast it out invite only (like facebook/gmail). now everyone has coins. what do they do with the coins?
1797 2011-03-08 15:52:37 <farzong> well now the clever exploiters of viral phenomenon will find a way to provide service for coins.. and then it bootstraps. no friction to play
1798 2011-03-08 15:53:05 <farzong> i have btc, but if others want it they have to risk a lot. its not viral
1799 2011-03-08 15:53:52 <EvanR-work> eh?
1800 2011-03-08 15:53:54 <Blitzboom> lol
1801 2011-03-08 15:54:01 <Blitzboom> they’d be worthless, if you did that
1802 2011-03-08 15:54:04 <ArtForz> wtf?
1803 2011-03-08 15:54:13 <EvanR-work> you cant generate 21 million coins in a couple of weeks
1804 2011-03-08 15:54:14 <ArtForz> hey, why not use use leaves as currency...
1805 2011-03-08 15:54:18 <farzong> why Blitzboom? they would be rare
1806 2011-03-08 15:54:27 <farzong> each unit is numbered
1807 2011-03-08 15:54:32 <Blitzboom> which doesn’t equal value …
1808 2011-03-08 15:54:38 <farzong> actually it does
1809 2011-03-08 15:54:38 <ArtForz> and besides, if you have a central authority hanbding out feree-for-all coins... why even bother with a block chain?
1810 2011-03-08 15:54:41 <mmarker> Woot, 2nd half of the bounty in my hot little hands
1811 2011-03-08 15:54:45 <Blitzboom> no, it doesn’t
1812 2011-03-08 15:54:45 <EvanR-work> bitcoins dont have serial numbers on them
1813 2011-03-08 15:54:55 <Blitzboom> my signature is rare
1814 2011-03-08 15:54:59 <Blitzboom> and it’s not valuable
1815 2011-03-08 15:55:01 <sipa> mmarker: bounty for?
1816 2011-03-08 15:55:12 <mmarker> sipa: the SSE2 miner for jgarzik's cpuminer
1817 2011-03-08 15:55:15 <sipa> i see
1818 2011-03-08 15:55:21 <farzong> it doesn't have to be a central authority.. all that needs to happen is create something that has finite units (say you sign 1 billion coins)
1819 2011-03-08 15:55:27 <mmarker> IOW, utterly worthless, but makes it suck less
1820 2011-03-08 15:55:35 <farzong> and eveyrone knows the valid range of numbers so you cant mint new coins
1821 2011-03-08 15:55:44 <mmarker> Still some performance tweaks someone sent me, but I don't think it'll be groundbreaking
1822 2011-03-08 15:55:57 <mmarker> also want to toss it to cachegrind to see if I can keep it in cache
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1824 2011-03-08 15:56:06 <EvanR-work> farzong: you need a policy for deciding how to get the coins out to people, central planning wont do it very well, and neither will randomly email spamming people to download the client
1825 2011-03-08 15:56:13 <Blitzboom> bitcoin needs to grow naturally, farzong
1826 2011-03-08 15:56:25 <Blitzboom> do you really think the services and clients at this moment are user-friendly?
1827 2011-03-08 15:56:27 <EvanR-work> the current system uses a free market so its better
1828 2011-03-08 15:56:57 <farzong> to create a market, you want to put btc in everyones hands. randomly blasting them (or via friend invites) is just as good as mining - better, since the market idn't sominated by a few players
1829 2011-03-08 15:57:19 <EvanR-work> just sell them to people
1830 2011-03-08 15:57:24 <Blitzboom> i think this is a false assumption
1831 2011-03-08 15:57:30 <EvanR-work> yes
1832 2011-03-08 15:57:33 <Blitzboom> they won’t value them just because they got some free
1833 2011-03-08 15:57:39 <Blitzboom> they wouldn’t even bother
1834 2011-03-08 15:57:51 <Blitzboom> in the end, we’d have the exact same community
1835 2011-03-08 15:57:53 <mmarker> Hmm. Core I5 has 32KB L1, 256KB L2
1836 2011-03-08 15:58:01 <ArtForz> not to mention, how do you prevent people from cheating by creating shitloads of identities?
1837 2011-03-08 15:58:06 * mmarker thinks the code is less than 32KB...the init data...
1838 2011-03-08 15:58:38 <gavinandresen> Yeah, if you figure out the identity thing let me know (I'm actually reworking the bitcoin faucet identity code right now...)
1839 2011-03-08 15:58:41 <farzong> Blitzboom: i dont think so.. because ppl will find a way to provide value
1840 2011-03-08 15:58:54 <farzong> its like a universal karma supply
1841 2011-03-08 15:58:56 <Blitzboom> explain
1842 2011-03-08 15:59:04 <Blitzboom> let’s assume everyno gets some free bitcoins
1843 2011-03-08 15:59:22 <mmarker> Oh EASILY
1844 2011-03-08 15:59:22 <Blitzboom> they think "cool", download the client
1845 2011-03-08 15:59:22 <farzong> upvotes would be replaced with coins.. bloggers would say "if you like my article, give me 10 coins"
1846 2011-03-08 15:59:34 <sipa> gavinandresen: did you see my updated dumpprivkey patch?
1847 2011-03-08 15:59:39 <Blitzboom> and turn off because everthing’s so complicated and they can’t even buy anything they want
1848 2011-03-08 15:59:46 <farzong> eventually a hosting company would say, well host your blog for free for coins
1849 2011-03-08 15:59:47 <Blitzboom> do you really think this would be helpful?
1850 2011-03-08 15:59:52 <mmarker> SHA-2 init vector + round constants + message is just over 1KB
1851 2011-03-08 15:59:57 <larsig> farzong, sounds like the whuffie bank, heard of it?
1852 2011-03-08 15:59:59 <gavinandresen> sipa: nope, pull request on github?
1853 2011-03-08 15:59:59 <farzong> things or marginal value being provided for coins (because of the wide disparity in valuations of unknown assets)
1854 2011-03-08 16:00:10 * mmarker looks at someone to make sure he isn't going crazy.
1855 2011-03-08 16:00:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: i should learn git :)
1856 2011-03-08 16:00:13 <Blitzboom> as i said … the userbase and the market have to grow naturally
1857 2011-03-08 16:00:13 <EvanR-work> pay people in BTC, that makes sense.
1858 2011-03-08 16:00:21 <farzong> larsig: i havent looks interesting
1859 2011-03-08 16:00:35 <EvanR-work> giving arbitrary number of btc away to abritrary number of people doesnt
1860 2011-03-08 16:00:40 <farzong> but it has to have some legitimacy - so a strong crypto-argument for why the upsply is finite, and some embedded computation (but not millions years)
1861 2011-03-08 16:00:40 <Blitzboom> or you’ll just create a bubble
1862 2011-03-08 16:00:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3906.msg61260#msg61260
1863 2011-03-08 16:01:21 <EvanR-work> farzong: exactly what current problem are you solving? its not the finite part
1864 2011-03-08 16:01:25 <EvanR-work> or the strong crypto part
1865 2011-03-08 16:01:25 <farzong> ppl will be happy to transact in the billions of coins they got for free.. and entrepreneurs will find ways to acquire btc.. it bootstraps, so the margin of value becomes wider
1866 2011-03-08 16:01:33 <farzong> EvanR-work: friction
1867 2011-03-08 16:01:50 <EvanR-work> entrepreneurs can do that now
1868 2011-03-08 16:01:51 <gavinandresen> sipa:  there are already pull requests for the wx-config stuff, by the way.
1869 2011-03-08 16:01:55 <EvanR-work> plenty of people have plenty of btc
1870 2011-03-08 16:01:55 <Blitzboom> you can’t just do some magic and you suddenly have an economy
1871 2011-03-08 16:02:14 <farzong> think of bitcoin in the first 6 months.. anyone can join and create coins pretty much
1872 2011-03-08 16:02:21 <farzong> the bootstrap phase should resemble that
1873 2011-03-08 16:02:24 <EvanR-work> better idea and more realistic, you, farzong, go ahead and start a business that accepts BTC. this has been the right thing to do for months
1874 2011-03-08 16:02:39 <farzong> i buy btc and if i had a busines i would accept it
1875 2011-03-08 16:02:49 <EvanR-work> you wouldnt need to buy btc at that point
1876 2011-03-08 16:02:59 <farzong> yes i bought btc as an investment
1877 2011-03-08 16:02:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: anyway, i did some tests on the testnet, and it seems that scenario of seeing transactions done by someone who has a copy of your key works now
1878 2011-03-08 16:03:08 <EvanR-work> thats orthogonal farzong
1879 2011-03-08 16:03:11 <farzong> but others are much more risk averse..
1880 2011-03-08 16:03:33 <EvanR-work> by accepting bitcoins at your business you are helping the economy
1881 2011-03-08 16:03:51 <EvanR-work> or help someone else start a business in exchange for a cut
1882 2011-03-08 16:03:53 <farzong> now, whats the difference between me creating 1,000 coins in week #2 of bitcoin, and sending 1,000 coins to someone on facebook for free.. not much.. the steepness of the difficulty of originating / seeding coins is a significant barrier to expanding the market demand for btc
1883 2011-03-08 16:04:09 <EvanR-work> you are still confusing mining with distribution
1884 2011-03-08 16:04:53 <EvanR-work> significant barrier to expanding the market demand is having stuff people want to buy
1885 2011-03-08 16:04:56 <farzong> in general, no reason to prefer mining over random emails with coins. (as long as the supply is finite). the latter is better because it establishes a viral/huge market
1886 2011-03-08 16:04:56 <Blitzboom> miners sell most of their bitcoins ;)
1887 2011-03-08 16:04:58 <EvanR-work> do that please
1888 2011-03-08 16:05:10 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: not old miners, i heard
1889 2011-03-08 16:05:24 <Blitzboom> luckily, EvanR-work
1890 2011-03-08 16:05:26 <EvanR-work> farzong: i heard you the first time. youre wrong
1891 2011-03-08 16:06:10 <[Noodles]> farzong: why would i, as a merchant, want to sell my stuff for play-money that everyone gets for free?
1892 2011-03-08 16:06:32 <[Noodles]> for the good?
1893 2011-03-08 16:07:14 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: also i stopped selling
1894 2011-03-08 16:07:24 <farzong> [Noodles]: because you think that due to a) widespread adoption of the currency - everyone has it and b) finite supply, it will eventually be worth more. but a first you dont sell things that have much value - only marginal value, like tips or access to some content
1895 2011-03-08 16:07:50 <Blitzboom> > it will eventually be worth more
1896 2011-03-08 16:07:52 <Blitzboom> lol speculation
1897 2011-03-08 16:07:57 <Blitzboom> that doesn’t compute
1898 2011-03-08 16:08:04 <farzong> there will be divergent opinions about the future worth of an unknown asset (that is the heart of any investment)
1899 2011-03-08 16:08:04 <[Noodles]> well, i don't think that and i doubt a lot of merchants would
1900 2011-03-08 16:08:14 <Blitzboom> businesses don’t speculate, that’s why they’re suspicious of bitcoins atm
1901 2011-03-08 16:08:19 <EvanR-work> if you dumped 21 million coins randomly, seems like supply would drive the price to nearly zero
1902 2011-03-08 16:08:24 <farzong> so some entrepreneurs will say, to read my blog, pls pay 10 coins. and ppl will happily pay
1903 2011-03-08 16:09:16 <EvanR-work> they would be worth zero usd
1904 2011-03-08 16:09:28 <Blitzboom> you don’t realize that the bitcoin client is not exactly user-friendly
1905 2011-03-08 16:09:31 <EvanR-work> people would just trade them for nothing
1906 2011-03-08 16:09:31 <Blitzboom> and everything else
1907 2011-03-08 16:09:42 <Blitzboom> we can’t have everyone use bitcoin at this point
1908 2011-03-08 16:09:46 <Blitzboom> it must evolve
1909 2011-03-08 16:10:08 <farzong> if you want a market, you need participants. they doint join when there are significant barriers
1910 2011-03-08 16:10:26 <gavinandresen> farzong:  you know you could create a bitcoin clone that issued all the coins at the beginning, and then you could play santa claus and "helicopter drop" them on facebook/google/yahoo/whatever accounts.
1911 2011-03-08 16:10:29 <farzong> for instance - if you go to zimbabwe and give everyone $100 USD - now they are using your currency
1912 2011-03-08 16:10:30 <Blitzboom> i don’t want participants who aren’t convinced of bitcoin
1913 2011-03-08 16:10:45 <Blitzboom> who don’t value them
1914 2011-03-08 16:10:46 <farzong> gavinandresen: that is true.. i dont want to tho, im happy with btitcoin
1915 2011-03-08 16:11:02 <gavinandresen> farzong:  You'll have a lot of trouble having people run zongcoin nodes, though, because what incentive would they have?
1916 2011-03-08 16:11:26 <farzong> gavinandresen: there are other ways to ensure finite supply of coins than millions of cpu years
1917 2011-03-08 16:11:40 <Blitzboom> elaborate
1918 2011-03-08 16:11:41 <gavinandresen> farzong:  sure, centralized ways.
1919 2011-03-08 16:11:46 <EvanR-work> central planning
1920 2011-03-08 16:11:50 <Blitzboom> haha
1921 2011-03-08 16:11:50 <EvanR-work> commie style
1922 2011-03-08 16:12:15 <eps1> comradecoins
1923 2011-03-08 16:12:18 <EvanR-work> lol
1924 2011-03-08 16:12:26 <farzong> not at all centralized
1925 2011-03-08 16:12:31 <ArtForz> and then we're back at "yay, yet another centralized internet currency, but this time totally social and viral..."
1926 2011-03-08 16:12:39 <gavinandresen> yay!
1927 2011-03-08 16:12:41 <EvanR-work> now with xml
1928 2011-03-08 16:12:56 <sipa> ... and ponies!
1929 2011-03-08 16:12:58 <ArtForz> oh, and it has rounded corners!
1930 2011-03-08 16:13:03 <farzong> you can simply have coins with moderate difficulty of generation (like the early phase of bitcoin)
1931 2011-03-08 16:13:08 <EvanR-work> good call art
1932 2011-03-08 16:13:34 <farzong> or just sign a billion units with serial numbers
1933 2011-03-08 16:13:37 <Blitzboom> sipa: god, stop it :(
1934 2011-03-08 16:13:44 <Blitzboom> damn ponies
1935 2011-03-08 16:13:48 <farzong> tehre no "central control" if you cant issue new units
1936 2011-03-08 16:13:50 <farzong> obviously
1937 2011-03-08 16:14:23 <[Noodles]> well, someone owns them from the start
1938 2011-03-08 16:14:38 <[Noodles]> there's your central control
1939 2011-03-08 16:14:42 <ArtForz> if theres no central control, you need something like bitcoins proof-of-work chain to keep track of who's on first
1940 2011-03-08 16:14:56 <farzong> yes the proof of work is great.. im just talking about originating coins
1941 2011-03-08 16:14:57 <EvanR-work> yes, to stop double spending
1942 2011-03-08 16:15:10 <ArtForz> and what incentive is there to do that work if there's no reward?
1943 2011-03-08 16:15:25 <farzong> the work is minimal - it doesn't have to have a huge difficulty rating
1944 2011-03-08 16:15:32 <farzong> because all the coins already exist
1945 2011-03-08 16:15:36 <farzong> think of bitcoin after the 21 million mark
1946 2011-03-08 16:15:46 <EvanR-work> farzong, we already have testnet
1947 2011-03-08 16:15:47 <farzong> what is the incentive at that point to verify transactions?
1948 2011-03-08 16:15:50 <sipa> farzong: it's not millions of cpu years, by the way - the amount of cpu "wastefully" spent on bitcoin mining only depends on the market value of bitcoins vs. electricity
1949 2011-03-08 16:15:53 <gavinandresen> It would be a miracle if satoshi happened to choose the most optimal and "fair" way to distribute coins initially.
1950 2011-03-08 16:15:55 <Blitzboom> fees, farzong
1951 2011-03-08 16:15:56 <EvanR-work> why dont you start distributing them
1952 2011-03-08 16:15:56 <Blitzboom> fees
1953 2011-03-08 16:16:01 <sipa> apologies
1954 2011-03-08 16:16:10 <gavinandresen> ... so he almost certainly didn't.
1955 2011-03-08 16:16:15 <sipa> the amount of power "wastefully" spent on bitcoin
1956 2011-03-08 16:16:18 <ArtForz> so a griefer with a bunch of decent GPUs can just keep any transactions from getting into the chain, yay!
1957 2011-03-08 16:16:27 <farzong> yeah, you dont really need huge computation to do verification
1958 2011-03-08 16:16:44 <Blitzboom> i will shut your small computational power down then
1959 2011-03-08 16:16:45 <farzong> why would the griefer prevent elongation
1960 2011-03-08 16:16:47 <gavinandresen> I'm not sure we know enough to figure out what would be the most efficient and fair way to distribute coins initially.
1961 2011-03-08 16:16:49 <EvanR-work> thats to stop one person from taking control of the network
1962 2011-03-08 16:16:58 <[Noodles]> farzong: because he can
1963 2011-03-08 16:17:16 <EvanR-work> gavinandresen: supply and demand, invisible hands
1964 2011-03-08 16:17:21 <ArtForz> griefers do shit to cause grief, otherwise they wouldnt be called griefers...
1965 2011-03-08 16:17:31 <farzong> gavinandresen: good point, but im actually looking at it from adoption pov rather than fairness.. i just know that if everyone on facebook has coins, you have a more powerful market than a small number of mining companies having coins
1966 2011-03-08 16:17:48 <Blitzboom> yay, facebook users
1967 2011-03-08 16:18:02 <gavinandresen> EvanR-work:  sure, but is it 'fair' that the people who just happened to know about bitcoins early easily generated a whole bunch?
1968 2011-03-08 16:18:08 <EvanR-work> farzong, you are free to distribute real coins to facebook users somehow, or convince a hoarder to do it, and see what happens
1969 2011-03-08 16:18:31 <gavinandresen> EvanR-work:  if the generation function was bell-curve shaped (or someting) that might have been better, for some definition of better
1970 2011-03-08 16:18:32 <farzong> well i only have around 150 btc of my own :)
1971 2011-03-08 16:18:43 <Blitzboom> gavinandresen: i think it’d have been better if the generation rate at first was low, then went up and declined again
1972 2011-03-08 16:18:45 <EvanR-work> gavinandresen: good question. but i dont know what fair is
1973 2011-03-08 16:19:07 <farzong> but i will bet you the folks who have a ton of coins will eventually decide to inject them into the market in  a viral way to spur adoption
1974 2011-03-08 16:19:19 <Blitzboom> so as the demand increases, the inflation does so, too
1975 2011-03-08 16:19:22 <EvanR-work> they probably wont
1976 2011-03-08 16:19:30 <EvanR-work> but you are free to pay $ to do it and see what happens
1977 2011-03-08 16:19:31 <gavinandresen> farzong:  I funded the bitcoin faucet with 10,000 bitcoins.....
1978 2011-03-08 16:19:41 <farzong> whoa gavinandresen
1979 2011-03-08 16:19:43 <farzong> prety cool
1980 2011-03-08 16:19:45 <gavinandresen> (which only cost $50 back then)
1981 2011-03-08 16:19:54 <EvanR-work> they went fast
1982 2011-03-08 16:19:55 <EvanR-work> ;)
1983 2011-03-08 16:19:56 <farzong> wow.. good investment
1984 2011-03-08 16:20:01 <Blitzboom> but later on, the demand will be stable and the inflation would decrease until the 21 million are reached
1985 2011-03-08 16:20:02 <sipa> is there any advantage actually to using a step-function 50,25,12.5,... for the subsidy, instead of just a steadily (exponentially) decreasing amount?
1986 2011-03-08 16:20:42 <Blitzboom> i think that’d be better, economics-wise and also regarding fairness
1987 2011-03-08 16:20:51 <gavinandresen> sipa:  makes it easier to talk about if you can say "50 are created about every 10 minutes" instead of "exp(log(11.2)) are created every ten minutes"
1988 2011-03-08 16:21:02 <sipa> agree, it's easier to explain
1989 2011-03-08 16:21:32 <Blitzboom> central banking is easy to explain, too
1990 2011-03-08 16:21:54 <ArtForz> sipa: imo, no
1991 2011-03-08 16:22:07 <EvanR-work> the 50 25 12 is just a decision to simulate a physical resources, its not inherently evil
1992 2011-03-08 16:22:19 <Blitzboom> yeah, but think about it
1993 2011-03-08 16:22:27 <Blitzboom> when the gold mining started
1994 2011-03-08 16:22:30 <farzong> lets say lots of blogs adopt bozobucks.. and everyone has to pay .01 bozobucks to read the blog.. eventually you run out of bozobucks and you have to do something to get them (like sign up for a newsletter).. now there are transactions of value taking place.. and it bootstraps
1995 2011-03-08 16:22:38 <Blitzboom> you mined a low amount and it went up
1996 2011-03-08 16:22:44 <Blitzboom> because more and more people participated
1997 2011-03-08 16:22:48 <EvanR-work> no one is going to pay to read a blog especially if it takes non zero effort
1998 2011-03-08 16:22:48 <sipa> EvanR-work: i'm not arguing about the exponential decrease, only about approximating it with a step function :)
1999 2011-03-08 16:22:52 <Blitzboom> still, gold is a scarce resource
2000 2011-03-08 16:22:53 <ArtForz> a continous exponentially decreasing function would've worked as well I guess
2001 2011-03-08 16:23:17 <ArtForz> and would avoid the ripple around the time of the step
2002 2011-03-08 16:23:47 <Blitzboom> couldn’t it be exponentially rising and then declining?
2003 2011-03-08 16:23:52 <EvanR-work> the step makes things interesting ;0
2004 2011-03-08 16:23:54 <farzong> EvanR-work: it costs you virtually nothing at first (since you have a billion bozobucks for free).. but eventually now that is adopted worldwide, you will want more.. it has to start at a point where buyers and sellers can enter the market without any friction (no market risk / no up-front hard cash investment)
2005 2011-03-08 16:24:05 <sipa> yes, changing it isn't worth it i think
2006 2011-03-08 16:24:20 <Blitzboom> it’s unrealistic that generation is the highest at the beginning
2007 2011-03-08 16:24:23 <ArtForz> yeah, still wonder why that steep a step function was chosen
2008 2011-03-08 16:24:49 <EvanR-work> so satoshi gets really rich
2009 2011-03-08 16:25:17 <Blitzboom> noone wants to answer me? :P
2010 2011-03-08 16:25:18 <EvanR-work> why invent money unless theres something in it for you ;)
2011 2011-03-08 16:25:23 <ArtForz> yup
2012 2011-03-08 16:25:43 <EvanR-work> bitcoin cabal
2013 2011-03-08 16:25:48 <sipa> EvanR-work: haha
2014 2011-03-08 16:26:37 <EvanR-work> farzong: you can buy bitcoins right now with little effort with paypal
2015 2011-03-08 16:26:47 <EvanR-work> thats not friction
2016 2011-03-08 16:26:54 <EvanR-work> its trade
2017 2011-03-08 16:26:59 <farzong> in a sense right now, bandwidth is the bozocurrency.. web site interactions cost each side bandwidth
2018 2011-03-08 16:27:16 <EvanR-work> eh.. you know, you should go write a blog and charge for it
2019 2011-03-08 16:27:19 <farzong> EvanR-work: but its expensive and i risk the btc losing value (market risk). and high fees!
2020 2011-03-08 16:27:50 <EvanR-work> usd is a risk
2021 2011-03-08 16:27:50 <farzong> so for a merchant to accept btc on par with USD is a high degree of risk
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2025 2011-03-08 16:28:12 <EvanR-work> you are free to accept btc at any price you want
2026 2011-03-08 16:28:29 <EvanR-work> if you think its worthless charge more btc
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2030 2011-03-08 16:28:53 <farzong> you wont get far selling at abover market rates
2031 2011-03-08 16:28:59 <EvanR-work> then it isnt worthless is it
2032 2011-03-08 16:29:13 <farzong> if you thin it is, you simply cannot join the market
2033 2011-03-08 16:29:22 <farzong> hence friction to widespread adoption
2034 2011-03-08 16:29:47 <EvanR-work> less friction than trying to get all of facebook to use it for no reason
2035 2011-03-08 16:29:59 <EvanR-work> considering how expensive it would be
2036 2011-03-08 16:30:05 <EvanR-work> with very high risk
2037 2011-03-08 16:30:34 <farzong> they would use it for the same reason ppl would use bitcoin now (guaranteed to be finite under certain mathematical assumptions / pseudo-anonymous / etc)
2038 2011-03-08 16:30:54 <farzong> why would it be expensive to use free money?
2039 2011-03-08 16:30:59 <EvanR-work> its not free
2040 2011-03-08 16:31:04 <sipa> which assumptions do you need, to guarantee bitcoin's finiteness?
2041 2011-03-08 16:31:41 <EvanR-work> finiteness isnt enough, physically usd is finite because you cant make more of it than there is matter in the earth
2042 2011-03-08 16:32:40 <EvanR-work> it needs to be valuable
2043 2011-03-08 16:35:27 <farzong> bitcoins were once near-free (because the difficulty was adjusted).
2044 2011-03-08 16:35:40 <sipa> they are also near-worthless
2045 2011-03-08 16:35:45 <sipa> *were
2046 2011-03-08 16:36:33 <farzong> well there are more bitcoins now, and they are worth more because of their applications
2047 2011-03-08 16:36:33 <EvanR-work> farzong you are just pissed that you werent there to grab some
2048 2011-03-08 16:36:36 <farzong> and network effects
2049 2011-03-08 16:37:01 <farzong> you dont need a lot of computation to create a finite thing that isn't subject to central control
2050 2011-03-08 16:37:22 <EvanR-work> the computation is there to avoid someone taking control of it for free
2051 2011-03-08 16:37:29 <ArtForz> write a paper on it then
2052 2011-03-08 16:37:37 <Blitzboom> you don’t need a lot of computation to take that down, farzong
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2055 2011-03-08 16:42:24 <farzong> even with the exact current system you just distribute the coins to participants using a prng (the verifier only needs moderate difficulty, and can still reap a fractional transaction fee)
2056 2011-03-08 16:43:07 <farzong> that is the 50 new coins get blasted out based on a prng seeded from the start, but you still use moderate-low cpu work to get the fee
2057 2011-03-08 16:43:36 <EvanR-work> again, you are free to distribute the coins you get either through mining or buying to whoever you want
2058 2011-03-08 16:43:40 <EvanR-work> santazong
2059 2011-03-08 16:43:47 <luke-jr> hmm
2060 2011-03-08 16:44:10 <farzong> EvanR-work: true, but if such diffusion isn't built-into the protocol, then it ends up in the hands of a few mega-miners who control the fate of the market (they can flood/horde/etc)
2061 2011-03-08 16:44:29 <EvanR-work> thats how it is unless you are a communist
2062 2011-03-08 16:44:45 <farzong> youre trying to make a moral argument, but im talking about adoption
2063 2011-03-08 16:44:48 <luke-jr> what if there were a couple million coins produced every block, to totally random addresses? <.<
2064 2011-03-08 16:44:53 <farzong> who wants to join a market controlled by a cartel?
2065 2011-03-08 16:44:59 <EvanR-work> im not making any moral judgements
2066 2011-03-08 16:45:07 <EvanR-work> farzong: most people, apparently
2067 2011-03-08 16:45:15 <farzong> what do you mean most people
2068 2011-03-08 16:45:29 <EvanR-work> consumers
2069 2011-03-08 16:46:03 <farzong> the value of usd is less subject to fed control than the value of btc is to the 10 mega-miners
2070 2011-03-08 16:46:18 <ArtForz> lol
2071 2011-03-08 16:46:19 <EvanR-work> the mega miners cannot increase the price to whatever they want
2072 2011-03-08 16:46:35 <farzong> EvanR-work: if they stop trading entirely?
2073 2011-03-08 16:46:36 <Blitzboom> https://goldnews.bullionvault.com/files/GoldMine1.png
2074 2011-03-08 16:46:46 <Blitzboom> it should be the same with bitcoin
2075 2011-03-08 16:46:49 <EvanR-work> as far as i know they dont trade lol
2076 2011-03-08 16:46:56 <Blitzboom> slowly rising an then declining
2077 2011-03-08 16:47:36 <EvanR-work> interesting idea Blitzboom, that would give people time to get to the gold rush rather than getting there and satoshi has it all
2078 2011-03-08 16:47:44 <Blitzboom> that’s what i’m saying
2079 2011-03-08 16:47:48 <Blitzboom> it adopts to the demand
2080 2011-03-08 16:48:11 <EvanR-work> you could start a new chain, rush coin
2081 2011-03-08 16:48:12 <Blitzboom> i think it is madness that we start out with the highest generation rate in teh first four years
2082 2011-03-08 16:48:32 <farzong> heres one potentially viral way: ppl can sign up to receiv coin on fbook/gmail whatever.. then coins come to them randomly when each block is created.. suddenly lots of ppl have coin and you have a market (blocks are still generated because you get fees)
2083 2011-03-08 16:48:34 <Blitzboom> it may work, but it’s not optimal
2084 2011-03-08 16:48:47 <EvanR-work> on the other hand, we didnt know ahead of time when gold rush was going to happen
2085 2011-03-08 16:49:18 <Blitzboom> but people could mine faster
2086 2011-03-08 16:49:25 <sipa> farzong: what will prevent someone from creating 100 facebook accounts, to receive more coins?
2087 2011-03-08 16:49:25 <luke-jr> hmm
2088 2011-03-08 16:50:10 <EvanR-work> better idea get them to contribute cpu power
2089 2011-03-08 16:50:19 <farzong> sipa: that usually happens with gmal/google voice any invite service. but the market is guaranteed to be at a higher width index than if there were no random payouts
2090 2011-03-08 16:50:40 <sipa> but still, it's centralized... the central system being google or facebook
2091 2011-03-08 16:50:50 <Blitzboom> i think a slowly rising (and then declining) generation rate would be much, much healthier
2092 2011-03-08 16:50:57 <Blitzboom> we have too much supply atm
2093 2011-03-08 16:51:02 <farzong> they can sign up from anywhere. you just want to have a statistically more diffuse sample
2094 2011-03-08 16:51:04 <Blitzboom> or too little demand
2095 2011-03-08 16:51:13 <x6763> farzong: so what will the incentive to generate blocks be? if the miners aren't getting the coins, then why spend so much money on generating blocks? and if no one wants to generate blocks, then where does the security come from?
2096 2011-03-08 16:51:31 <ArtForz> magic!
2097 2011-03-08 16:51:31 <sipa> hmm what about this wild idea: each transaction you put into a block allows you to put 0.1% (or choose any reasonable %) of the total amount of unminted coins left, in your generation tx
2098 2011-03-08 16:51:34 <x6763> lol
2099 2011-03-08 16:51:48 <sipa> hmm, that would probably cause tx-spamming
2100 2011-03-08 16:51:48 <farzong> x6763: same incentive they have after the 21 million coins are generated.. a marginal fee to cover the computational cost of a moderate difficulty
2101 2011-03-08 16:51:54 <ArtForz> wont work
2102 2011-03-08 16:52:22 <knotwork> farzong it is open source, if you want to launch a variant with a different distribution setup lets do it
2103 2011-03-08 16:52:37 <Blitzboom> is it technically possibly now to create a slowly rising and declining generation rate or not?
2104 2011-03-08 16:52:39 towerX is now known as tower
2105 2011-03-08 16:52:39 <gavinandresen> ... just remember that the perfect is the enemy of the good
2106 2011-03-08 16:52:47 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: with a new system
2107 2011-03-08 16:52:56 <knotwork> heck you can pick a nation of Galactic Milieu that no one is playing yet and create its national currency
2108 2011-03-08 16:53:00 <Blitzboom> so it would be, with a new blockchain
2109 2011-03-08 16:53:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: absolutely
2110 2011-03-08 16:53:02 <ArtForz> actually good now is the enemy of perfect later
2111 2011-03-08 16:53:08 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2112 2011-03-08 16:53:10 <farzong> totally.. i love bitcoin.. im happy to keep using it. i want others to use it - but their is friction to widespread adoption
2113 2011-03-08 16:53:11 <knotwork> and decide that nation's policy for how it distributes its currency
2114 2011-03-08 16:53:12 <EvanR-work> 'worse is better' xD
2115 2011-03-08 16:53:16 <ArtForz> yep
2116 2011-03-08 16:53:28 <gavinandresen> worse quick is better than better later
2117 2011-03-08 16:53:33 <ArtForz> yep
2118 2011-03-08 16:53:39 <EvanR-work> bullshit, sometimes
2119 2011-03-08 16:53:42 <sipa> depends
2120 2011-03-08 16:54:00 <luke-jr> parallel
2121 2011-03-08 16:54:01 <EvanR-work> here, worse quick is better now and youre fucked later
2122 2011-03-08 16:54:11 <luke-jr> go after worse now, AND better later
2123 2011-03-08 16:54:12 <luke-jr> :p
2124 2011-03-08 16:54:19 <gavinandresen> Sure, depends on how much worse and better.  The bitcoin coin introduction schedule is good enough, I think.  But we'll see
2125 2011-03-08 16:54:22 <EvanR-work> xtreme programming!
2126 2011-03-08 16:54:31 <EvanR-work> bitcoin seems great as it is
2127 2011-03-08 16:54:41 <EvanR-work> besides the actual code
2128 2011-03-08 16:54:45 <luke-jr> so, BTC now, TBC later :D
2129 2011-03-08 16:54:52 <x6763> bitcoin is ingenious as it is
2130 2011-03-08 16:54:58 BlueMatt has joined
2131 2011-03-08 16:55:12 <Blitzboom> i can only critizise that the generation rate shouldn’t be the maximum at the start
2132 2011-03-08 16:55:14 <farzong> there are other schemes - you sign a billion units. and anyone who signs up can have the unit transferred to them. anyone can verify that units have been distributed by randomly sampling the population (that is you trust that there isnt a statistically significant conspiracy of individuals)
2133 2011-03-08 16:55:32 <knotwork> luke-jr, how about pick a gamenation that will use tonal as its national numeric system heh
2134 2011-03-08 16:56:15 <knotwork> get tonal mentioned in Freeciv by creating a nation that uses it
2135 2011-03-08 16:56:46 <knotwork> esperanto and some other artificial language made nations, tonal should too
2136 2011-03-08 16:57:43 <luke-jr> knotwork: that would be more complex, since you never see the language spoken by civilizations :p
2137 2011-03-08 16:57:50 slush2 has joined
2138 2011-03-08 16:57:54 <luke-jr> and Freeciv uses a uniform gold currency
2139 2011-03-08 16:58:41 <EvanR-work> esperanto didnt make 'nations'
2140 2011-03-08 16:58:43 <knotwork> freeciv's so called gold is used even if nation has not developed currency
2141 2011-03-08 16:59:00 <knotwork> I take it not to mean literal gold but basically local influence on that planet
2142 2011-03-08 16:59:10 <knotwork> no shipping it from planet to planet in starships
2143 2011-03-08 16:59:50 <knotwork> there is an Esperanto nation as one of the "fictional" nations along with European nation United Nations Hackers Martians etc
2144 2011-03-08 17:00:42 <knotwork> you could make a fictional nation "The Tonality" or somesuch
2145 2011-03-08 17:00:50 <BlueMatt> tcatm: Upon further investigation, the client will properly reconnect if an ip changes, however it does take quite a while (1.5hr timout for nodes). Im working on a patch based on irc reconenct and existing GetMyExternalIP stuff
2146 2011-03-08 17:01:47 <farzong> bitcoin is awesome.. i will continue buying btc of course and encourage merchants to accept btc
2147 2011-03-08 17:04:45 <farzong> i mean bitcoin is the most ingenius thing since.. the invention of bartering
2148 2011-03-08 17:06:18 <EvanR-work> better idea accept bitcoin at your business
2149 2011-03-08 17:06:28 <farzong> if i had a business i wdefinitely would
2150 2011-03-08 17:06:44 <farzong> since i see btc's being worth $1,000 in the foreseable future
2151 2011-03-08 17:07:07 <nanotube> BlueMatt: make sure it works when running -noirc too.
2152 2011-03-08 17:07:18 <lfm> wow, I want some of those drugs you're using
2153 2011-03-08 17:07:49 <Blitzboom> why? i think his prediction is right
2154 2011-03-08 17:08:05 <sipa> define forseeable
2155 2011-03-08 17:08:26 <farzong> to be honest, i think the fact that there is some level of consolidation the miners who have a lot of coin have a major incentive to make it valuable
2156 2011-03-08 17:08:32 <BlueMatt> nanotube: good point, will do
2157 2011-03-08 17:08:36 <farzong> so they will make it happen for sure
2158 2011-03-08 17:09:06 <farzong> im currently in clinical trials for the drug Charlie Sheen
2159 2011-03-08 17:09:11 <Blitzboom> if noone buys, that won’t matter, farzong
2160 2011-03-08 17:09:20 <Blitzboom> they can’t really dictate the price
2161 2011-03-08 17:09:50 <farzong> the drug "Charlie Sheen" has been approved by the FDA, but it's horrible side-effect is that it ruins your life
2162 2011-03-08 17:10:52 <farzong> Blitzboom: true
2163 2011-03-08 17:11:23 <farzong> just saying, enough ppl are involved in the projectin various ways they have incentive to make btc valuable
2164 2011-03-08 17:11:35 <farzong> soi will keep buying btc :)
2165 2011-03-08 17:11:59 <farzong> with what little cash i have leftover from being unemployed..
2166 2011-03-08 17:12:17 brunner has joined
2167 2011-03-08 17:12:31 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2168 2011-03-08 17:13:00 <farzong> man i need a job / some coin
2169 2011-03-08 17:13:02 <genjix> what's bitcoin coding guideline for some object?
2170 2011-03-08 17:13:23 <farzong> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4035.0
2171 2011-03-08 17:13:56 <farzong> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/coding.txt
2172 2011-03-08 17:14:08 <genjix> i read that
2173 2011-03-08 17:14:12 <genjix> not on the list
2174 2011-03-08 17:15:20 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2175 2011-03-08 17:15:31 <farzong> hmm whats the question
2176 2011-03-08 17:15:47 <farzong> i will fake an answer if no one knowledgable about bitcoin internals is around :)
2177 2011-03-08 17:17:33 <farzong> Compute4Cash interesting
2178 2011-03-08 17:17:41 <luke-jr> farzong: better be more than $1,000!
2179 2011-03-08 17:17:58 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2180 2011-03-08 17:18:00 knotwork has joined
2181 2011-03-08 17:18:15 gribble has joined
2182 2011-03-08 17:18:29 <farzong> luke-jr: i can see it becoming $3k-$5k in a few years. public perception must be handled appropriately.. like no takeovers/massive outages etc
2183 2011-03-08 17:18:57 <luke-jr> when BTC hits $1525.88, TBC gets parity\
2184 2011-03-08 17:19:10 <luke-jr> $15.26 for penny-parity ;p
2185 2011-03-08 17:19:19 <farzong> tho.. a takeover would be almost impossible.. like taking over every irc network simultaneously
2186 2011-03-08 17:20:32 <genjix> SomeClass instance_name;
2187 2011-03-08 17:20:38 <gavinandresen> ... like how the massive twitter outages completely destroyed any chance for twitter to get big...
2188 2011-03-08 17:20:43 <genjix> what's the guidline in bitcoin for naming instance_name?
2189 2011-03-08 17:21:08 <farzong> gavinandresen: hahah!
2190 2011-03-08 17:21:12 slush2 is now known as slush
2191 2011-03-08 17:21:12 <genjix> gavinandresen: twitter *is* big... in some countries it's dominant
2192 2011-03-08 17:21:20 slush has quit (Changing host)
2193 2011-03-08 17:21:20 slush has joined
2194 2011-03-08 17:21:21 <gavinandresen> genjix: :)
2195 2011-03-08 17:21:23 <genjix> something like 20% of venezualans use it
2196 2011-03-08 17:21:25 <farzong> gavinandresen: when money is only the line, tho, perception is very important
2197 2011-03-08 17:21:32 <genjix> (including people not on the net)
2198 2011-03-08 17:21:52 <farzong> ppl can tolerate a couple days of not having tweets from kardashian or whoever.. but when their money is at stake different story
2199 2011-03-08 17:22:08 <genjix> gavinandresen: what's the proper way to name CSomeClass InstanceName; in Bitcoin code? I can't find it in the doc...
2200 2011-03-08 17:22:10 <gavinandresen> I agree, and denial-of-service attacks are way up on the priority list.  That's why I'm so reluctant to accept patches that tweak the networking code.
2201 2011-03-08 17:22:35 <gavinandresen> genjix:  CPrivKey  (classes start with C)
2202 2011-03-08 17:22:40 <genjix> no the instance
2203 2011-03-08 17:22:45 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2204 2011-03-08 17:22:56 <gavinandresen> const CKey & key
2205 2011-03-08 17:23:03 MartianW has joined
2206 2011-03-08 17:23:04 <farzong> but you know youre completely right.. even a big DoS would probably have a positive effect (more ppl knowing about bitcoin). sort-of like the early wildwest of e-commerce when amazon was DoS'd very other week
2207 2011-03-08 17:23:08 <genjix> ok
2208 2011-03-08 17:23:17 <gavinandresen> (no prefix, unless it is a pointer or an integer or one of the other special types)
2209 2011-03-08 17:23:31 <genjix> thanks... i thought it was a fluke in the code :p
2210 2011-03-08 17:23:47 Spenvo has joined
2211 2011-03-08 17:23:48 <genjix> (cos the other types have prefixes)
2212 2011-03-08 17:23:55 <farzong> the reaction to DoS would be a signal of how important the network is.. so it kind of balances out
2213 2011-03-08 17:24:14 <gavinandresen> meh.  Satoshi is way pickier about that stuff than I am, and if he wants to come back and start nit-picking....
2214 2011-03-08 17:24:32 <farzong> even the london stock exchange wa ground to a halt last week when they nstalled the new transaction engine
2215 2011-03-08 17:25:30 <gavinandresen> Having a massive outage that people notice is way better than having no problems at all because everybody is ignoring you
2216 2011-03-08 17:25:42 <genjix> farzong: wrong
2217 2011-03-08 17:26:07 <genjix> some large scale vendors had problem with their crappy outdated code using the new api
2218 2011-03-08 17:26:10 <farzong> gavinandresen: definitely some truth in that.. if ppl care about the outage, that is a signal to others that something inportant is going on
2219 2011-03-08 17:26:18 <genjix> smaller vendors did not because they're agile.
2220 2011-03-08 17:26:54 <genjix> the exchange was working fine.
2221 2011-03-08 17:26:59 <farzong> genjix: in what way am i "wrong". the exchange was down for 4 hours
2222 2011-03-08 17:28:12 <farzong> http://liveservice.londonstockexchangegroup.com/en/incidents/archived/85-friday-25022011-075443
2223 2011-03-08 17:28:23 <farzong> "Order driven markets remain in a HALT state and no automatic execution is possible at this time. No time has yet been set for the reopening uncrossing auction call period to start. Advanced notice will be given of the proposed uncrossing time."
2224 2011-03-08 17:28:58 <lfm> closed != down
2225 2011-03-08 17:29:17 tower has joined
2226 2011-03-08 17:29:39 <farzong> it was not closed, as in a scheduled break
2227 2011-03-08 17:29:46 <farzong> like the closing of a day
2228 2011-03-08 17:30:18 <genjix> yeah read about it. it was some large exchanges inability to cope using the new system
2229 2011-03-08 17:30:57 <luke-jr> more people need to use bitcoin.local
2230 2011-03-08 17:31:07 <farzong> i dont think the official probe has released their findinge yet genjix
2231 2011-03-08 17:31:51 tower is now known as towerX
2232 2011-03-08 17:32:47 <farzong> of course the previous system had worse problems and random outages
2233 2011-03-08 17:33:50 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2234 2011-03-08 17:33:54 <knotwork> I tried to log in to Royal Bank of Canada last night, oops, sorry, main sites not there at all and rbc financial site ws
2235 2011-03-08 17:34:01 <knotwork> sorry we are experiencing problems
2236 2011-03-08 17:34:09 <knotwork> but thats royalty for ya he
2237 2011-03-08 17:34:38 <knotwork> should try again now, its banking hours but hmm maybe long lunch hour too tho
2238 2011-03-08 17:35:36 <knotwork> should be dubious about using royal bank in ones bitcoin business tho if it has such outages eh
2239 2011-03-08 17:36:24 <farzong> Feb 15: LSE closing auctio which normally starts at 4:30PM is delayed by 42 seconds, causing mass confusion / volatility.  Feb 25: Trading is halted for 4 hours. The technical glitch was attributed by Borsa Italiana as "a technical issue on DDMPlus, real time data feed service used by the majority of domestic operators."
2240 2011-03-08 17:37:01 <lfm> I heard some banks only support ms IE
2241 2011-03-08 17:37:11 <knotwork> see, all those non-bitcoin financtial institutions are unrealiable, better to use bitcoin :)
2242 2011-03-08 17:37:26 <luke-jr> lfm: I herd u liek mudkipz
2243 2011-03-08 17:37:45 <farzong> the LSE was using tradelect before that.. which had major downtime issues.. so the minor annoyances are much better than it was
2244 2011-03-08 17:37:50 * luke-jr ducks
2245 2011-03-08 17:37:50 <lfm> huh whats that?
2246 2011-03-08 17:38:01 <luke-jr> nfc
2247 2011-03-08 17:38:10 <knotwork> does LSE even have a 24/7 irc support channel?
2248 2011-03-08 17:38:16 <luke-jr> lol
2249 2011-03-08 17:38:19 <knotwork> I dont think royal bank does
2250 2011-03-08 17:38:40 bk128 has joined
2251 2011-03-08 17:39:51 <knotwork> still cant reach www.rbc.com
2252 2011-03-08 17:40:34 <knotwork> ah might be able to get rbcroyalbank.com but slow
2253 2011-03-08 17:41:11 <lfm> luke-jr here is what I like, do you? http://goo.gl/opyl
2254 2011-03-08 17:41:28 <luke-jr> lfm: no
2255 2011-03-08 17:41:49 <luke-jr> http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/index_files/BishopDolanCatechism_15_WhyYouShouldNOTBecomeACatholic.mp3
2256 2011-03-08 17:41:51 <knotwork> still no rbc login though
2257 2011-03-08 17:41:51 <luke-jr> :p
2258 2011-03-08 17:42:47 <farzong> I am astonished they did not run the systems in parallel, said a source at one of the major data vendors. At least for a few weeks or months as necessary.
2259 2011-03-08 17:43:04 <knotwork> maybe I should stash CAD in bots as CDN instead of in this apparently unrealiable royal bank thing
2260 2011-03-08 17:44:09 <farzong> "All the planning charts have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now..."
2261 2011-03-08 17:44:11 <lfm> convert all your money to btc
2262 2011-03-08 17:44:13 <farzong> heh
2263 2011-03-08 17:45:04 <knotwork> RBC didnt tell the Alpha Centauri office anything about this outage of theirs :(
2264 2011-03-08 17:45:11 <farzong> hehe
2265 2011-03-08 17:45:39 <farzong> however, the feb 25 outage was not due to closing pricing (which is what caused the feb 15 delay)
2266 2011-03-08 17:45:42 <knotwork> let alone 50 years ago hahah
2267 2011-03-08 17:45:51 <farzong> it was blamed on "DDMPlus" real time data feed by borsa..
2268 2011-03-08 17:46:14 <lfm> official 6990s
2269 2011-03-08 17:46:29 <genjix> whats the bitcoin escrow service?
2270 2011-03-08 17:46:42 <farzong> clearfcoin
2271 2011-03-08 17:46:47 <jgarzik> genjix: https://clearcoin.appspot.com/
2272 2011-03-08 17:47:06 <genjix> thanks :p
2273 2011-03-08 17:48:03 <luke-jr> genjix: alternatively, you can write a tx script that does clearcoin-style "escrow"
2274 2011-03-08 17:48:27 <luke-jr> and get it in one of my blocks for as little as 1 TBCᵗ (0.00004096 BTC)
2275 2011-03-08 17:48:37 <luke-jr> (depending on the tx size)
2276 2011-03-08 17:49:42 kablooey has joined
2277 2011-03-08 17:51:15 <farzong> "It remains unclear whether the problem is with the LSE data feeds or with the vendors processing of the data. Market sources said they expected it to be a combination of both factors, suggesting that coding instructions were either misinterpreted or unclear in the first place."
2278 2011-03-08 17:51:19 <lfm> 450w for one card
2279 2011-03-08 17:52:01 <farzong> well in any case, they shouldve run the 2 systems in parallel and had more live testing.. but the glitches are pretty innocuous.. a few hours downtime and some unexpected out-of-wack price volatility briefly
2280 2011-03-08 17:52:48 <mmarker> Ok, so do people who have high end CPUs not put fans on them?
2281 2011-03-08 17:53:09 kablooey has left ("Killed buffer")
2282 2011-03-08 17:55:39 <EvanR-work> farzong is still going on about commucoin
2283 2011-03-08 17:56:00 <Blitzboom> you should better think about my suggestion
2284 2011-03-08 17:56:07 <farzong> about what now
2285 2011-03-08 17:56:37 <farzong> Blitzboom: for a differential speedup funciton?
2286 2011-03-08 17:56:44 <Blitzboom> yes
2287 2011-03-08 17:56:53 <farzong> makes sense
2288 2011-03-08 17:56:58 <Blitzboom> increasing inflation until a certain point, then deflation
2289 2011-03-08 17:57:05 <Blitzboom> i mean decreasing inflation
2290 2011-03-08 17:57:13 <Blitzboom> just like gold mining happened
2291 2011-03-08 17:57:28 <Blitzboom> it’s a bit crazy to begin with a maximum generation rate imo
2292 2011-03-08 17:57:32 <farzong> if you have different coins with different decay functions built into them, then demand for various time/decay value units will self adjust into equilibrium
2293 2011-03-08 17:57:32 <EvanR-work> it wouldnt emulate gold though, since its known when to rush
2294 2011-03-08 17:57:35 <lfm> mmarker I suspect almost all high end cpus have their own fan
2295 2011-03-08 17:57:52 <EvanR-work> but it would allow people time to get setup
2296 2011-03-08 17:58:23 <Blitzboom> EvanR-work: it would allow the system to adapt better to the demand
2297 2011-03-08 17:58:27 <farzong> i.e., creating a coin that expires in n days is cheaper than a coin that expires in 10n days
2298 2011-03-08 17:58:30 <mmarker> lfm: I've gotten some complaints about the sse2 code. Seems like people use fans/heat solutions designed for some situation other than running 100% full bore in a tight loop.
2299 2011-03-08 17:58:32 <EvanR-work> the real gold rush is more like how bitcoin really happened, the first guys there made a fortune and the rest trickled
2300 2011-03-08 17:58:32 <knotwork> so farzong shall we set up such a currency? will you promote it, back it, etc?
2301 2011-03-08 17:58:50 <EvanR-work> expiring currency? usd? been done
2302 2011-03-08 17:59:20 <Blitzboom> EvanR-work: distribution is important
2303 2011-03-08 17:59:25 <lfm> mmarker: huh? well tell em don't do that
2304 2011-03-08 17:59:25 <farzong> EvanR-work: nothing like usd since the fed increases supply.. self-equilibrium decay is a different animal
2305 2011-03-08 17:59:42 <EvanR-work> the effect is the same
2306 2011-03-08 17:59:46 <Blitzboom> it would be more evenly distributed with a rising/declining inflation
2307 2011-03-08 17:59:49 <Blitzboom> no, why?
2308 2011-03-08 17:59:57 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: im talking to farzong
2309 2011-03-08 18:00:00 <Blitzboom> oh, ok
2310 2011-03-08 18:00:02 <farzong> the point is - how do you tame inflation / deflation in a self-organizing way - by supplying different units with diferent inflationary/deflationary properties on a continuous scale
2311 2011-03-08 18:00:12 <EvanR-work> with supply and demand, not central planning
2312 2011-03-08 18:00:17 <farzong> the market essentially buys the level of equilibrium it wants
2313 2011-03-08 18:00:21 <mmarker> lfm: Exactly.
2314 2011-03-08 18:00:47 <Blitzboom> ok, but i think it’s a mistake to have 100% generation rate for the first two years when almost nobody’s mining
2315 2011-03-08 18:00:48 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: distribution is important?
2316 2011-03-08 18:00:57 <farzong> if the market is overheated, ppl will want coins with longevity, in a cold market, short-lived coins are fine
2317 2011-03-08 18:01:01 <Blitzboom> or first four years
2318 2011-03-08 18:01:10 <farzong> err other way around..
2319 2011-03-08 18:01:10 <EvanR-work> its been like 2 years total
2320 2011-03-08 18:01:11 <lfm> Blitzboom: huh?
2321 2011-03-08 18:01:12 <mmarker> EvanR-work: actually, the miners in the Ca gold rush weren't the ones who got rich. It was the merchants who sold to the miners who got the profits.
2322 2011-03-08 18:01:20 <mmarker> So, people. SELL THINGS
2323 2011-03-08 18:01:25 <EvanR-work> yes, good idea
2324 2011-03-08 18:01:33 <Blitzboom> lfm: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2008/world-gold-mine-production-dec08.jpg
2325 2011-03-08 18:01:36 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: well, currently most of the gold is being hoarded ;)
2326 2011-03-08 18:01:39 <farzong> mmarker: so nvidia is getting rich ? :)
2327 2011-03-08 18:01:50 <mmarker> Or ATI, really
2328 2011-03-08 18:01:53 <farzong> hehe
2329 2011-03-08 18:01:55 <Blitzboom> inflation rate should rise and then decline
2330 2011-03-08 18:01:57 <farzong> amazon gpu farms
2331 2011-03-08 18:02:06 <Blitzboom> it sohuldn’t have its maximum at the start
2332 2011-03-08 18:02:20 <lfm> Blitzboom: bitcoin aint gold
2333 2011-03-08 18:02:24 <farzong> yeah im saying: what if you could trade inflation as a built in property of the currency. supply and demand is therefore applied on a second-order property(inflation) rather than a first-order one (units)
2334 2011-03-08 18:02:26 <mmarker> Hmm, is there a public server that has AVX available?
2335 2011-03-08 18:02:33 <Blitzboom> lfm: in how for does it differ?
2336 2011-03-08 18:02:41 <farzong> you could have n-order properties to maintain a self-organized balance
2337 2011-03-08 18:02:46 <Blitzboom> and what is the advantage of this generation rate?
2338 2011-03-08 18:03:07 <lfm> there will always be 50 new btc every 10 mins, the mines wont go dry
2339 2011-03-08 18:03:17 <Blitzboom> i don’t mean that
2340 2011-03-08 18:03:26 <Blitzboom> it should be 10 btc at the beginning
2341 2011-03-08 18:03:28 <Blitzboom> and rise
2342 2011-03-08 18:03:32 <Blitzboom> and later on, decline
2343 2011-03-08 18:03:36 <EvanR-work> the first miners would still be rich
2344 2011-03-08 18:03:42 <Blitzboom> yeah, but not THAT rich
2345 2011-03-08 18:03:50 <EvanR-work> according to my calculations, 1/5 as rich
2346 2011-03-08 18:03:51 <Blitzboom> i mean, it would be more evenly distributed
2347 2011-03-08 18:04:00 <knotwork> well no need to just yack about it, lets do it
2348 2011-03-08 18:04:07 <EvanR-work> fork bitcoin!
2349 2011-03-08 18:04:12 <Blitzboom> i don’t know if that’s technically possible
2350 2011-03-08 18:04:15 <EvanR-work> it is
2351 2011-03-08 18:04:16 <knotwork> BlitxBucks
2352 2011-03-08 18:04:19 <Blitzboom> ok
2353 2011-03-08 18:04:22 <knotwork> BlitzBucks
2354 2011-03-08 18:04:26 <lfm> Blitzboom: well I guess the only thing you could do about that is start your own clone of bitcoin and do it "right" this time. meanwhile we will just keep what we got
2355 2011-03-08 18:04:28 <jgarzik> bitcoin forks at least one a day :)
2356 2011-03-08 18:04:32 <EvanR-work> but weight the potential impact on the community
2357 2011-03-08 18:04:35 <knotwork> BlitCoin
2358 2011-03-08 18:04:47 <Blitzboom> lfm: yeah well, bitcoin has of course the advantage of being first
2359 2011-03-08 18:04:55 <lfm> yup
2360 2011-03-08 18:04:57 <Blitzboom> and having a strong network
2361 2011-03-08 18:05:00 <Blitzboom> plus community
2362 2011-03-08 18:05:02 <EvanR-work> and being awesome
2363 2011-03-08 18:05:22 <lfm> ecept for all the other digital currencies from before bitcoin
2364 2011-03-08 18:05:26 <Blitzboom> don’t get me wrong, i think bitcoin’s really great and i have enough ;)
2365 2011-03-08 18:05:42 <mmarker> jgarzik: That much churn in github?
2366 2011-03-08 18:05:45 <knotwork> yeah but Blitcoin will give all those CPU miners a chance if the big boys with the GPUs ignore it thinking it worthless
2367 2011-03-08 18:05:52 <Blitzboom> i’m just thinking of the economic implication of this inflation rate
2368 2011-03-08 18:05:53 <EvanR-work> its set up, lets concentrate on building the economy rather than starting over
2369 2011-03-08 18:06:14 <Blitzboom> i mean, 50% of all bitcoins are created in the first four years!
2370 2011-03-08 18:06:30 <Blitzboom> when it is hardly known
2371 2011-03-08 18:06:48 <knotwork> we aren't starting over, we are showing how important bitcoin is by emulating it.sincerest form of flattery
2372 2011-03-08 18:06:49 <EvanR-work> yeah, that just shows why a 'lets generate them all in 2 weeks and random distribute' isnt far from reality
2373 2011-03-08 18:06:56 <jgarzik> mmarker: one could interpret that statement WRT the block chain, -or- the codebase
2374 2011-03-08 18:06:58 <Blitzboom> but it could turn out to be good … because those who have bitcoins, tend to be more entranched in the community
2375 2011-03-08 18:07:02 <lfm> hard to say how well it will be known in 2 years
2376 2011-03-08 18:07:22 <Blitzboom> yes, but 50% will have been created by then
2377 2011-03-08 18:07:30 <mmarker> jgarzik: Hmm. you have a point
2378 2011-03-08 18:07:33 <Blitzboom> and the next inflation rate will still be an enormous 25%
2379 2011-03-08 18:07:34 <EvanR-work> creating isnt the important aspect of bitcoin
2380 2011-03-08 18:07:51 <EvanR-work> well not the most important
2381 2011-03-08 18:07:52 <Blitzboom> yeah, hoarding is, EvanR-work :D
2382 2011-03-08 18:07:56 <jgarzik> mmarker: we should get your self-test and algo auto-selection code in
2383 2011-03-08 18:07:57 <lfm> EvanR-work: you cant generate them all in 2 weeks
2384 2011-03-08 18:08:14 <EvanR-work> lfm: i know, you missed the discussion from earlier
2385 2011-03-08 18:08:16 <jgarzik> mmarker: algo auto-select for cpuminer should probably be the default
2386 2011-03-08 18:08:24 <lfm> EvanR-work: the difficulty changes every 2016 blocks
2387 2011-03-08 18:08:28 <mmarker> jgarzik: I didn't write autoselect
2388 2011-03-08 18:08:36 <mmarker> and I need to clean up the validation code
2389 2011-03-08 18:08:39 <EvanR-work> i know
2390 2011-03-08 18:08:46 <lfm> EvanR-work: ok sorry
2391 2011-03-08 18:09:21 <mmarker> jgarzik: Your idea of using a valid block is a good one, so I'm going to use the genesis block
2392 2011-03-08 18:09:25 <EvanR-work> guys solution was to start over, make 21 million instantly, and randomly distribute to people 'to establish a market'
2393 2011-03-08 18:09:45 <knotwork> so blitz when you start issuing blitcoin, will you be buying them from people so they have value?
2394 2011-03-08 18:09:47 <EvanR-work> and also to reduce difficulty to its not as cpu intensive to run
2395 2011-03-08 18:10:15 asdfasd is now known as Sirius
2396 2011-03-08 18:10:16 <farzong> im back
2397 2011-03-08 18:10:20 <knotwork> if so, for how much bitcoin will you buy them aka what conversion rate will you back them at?
2398 2011-03-08 18:10:37 <Kiba> floating value, knotwork?
2399 2011-03-08 18:10:37 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom isnt going to buy anything. hes going to sell sell sell
2400 2011-03-08 18:10:44 <Blitzboom> huh?
2401 2011-03-08 18:10:47 <EvanR-work> to get rich ;)
2402 2011-03-08 18:10:51 <Blitzboom> i’m not selling my bitcoins
2403 2011-03-08 18:10:52 <knotwork> oh blitponzcoin
2404 2011-03-08 18:10:57 <EvanR-work> no, blitcoin
2405 2011-03-08 18:10:58 <farzong> is EvanR-work mis-representing my suggestion somehow
2406 2011-03-08 18:11:03 <TD> gavinandresen: the testnet is semi-b0rked again
2407 2011-03-08 18:11:04 <EvanR-work> probably
2408 2011-03-08 18:11:07 <TD> gavinandresen: difficulty is 16 :(
2409 2011-03-08 18:11:10 <Blitzboom> what are you talking about, EvanR-work?
2410 2011-03-08 18:11:15 <mmarker> I'm puzzled by the difficulty...is it to prevent someone from taking over the network with too much hashing power?
2411 2011-03-08 18:11:22 <EvanR-work> i dont know, i thought you were starting your own bitcoin
2412 2011-03-08 18:11:30 <farzong> he thinks its communistic to reduce barriers to entry and increase market participation
2413 2011-03-08 18:11:30 <Blitzboom> no
2414 2011-03-08 18:11:44 <Kiba> hmm
2415 2011-03-08 18:11:47 <EvanR-work> its communistic to redistribute wealth for no reason
2416 2011-03-08 18:11:48 * Kiba yawn
2417 2011-03-08 18:12:00 <Blitzboom> all i said was that the inflation rate should rather be slowly rising and slowly declining in bitcoin
2418 2011-03-08 18:12:06 <Blitzboom> it’s not redistribution
2419 2011-03-08 18:12:10 <farzong> EvanR-work: you are veering into moral territory.. the reason to distribute coins is to create a market. bootstrapping problem
2420 2011-03-08 18:12:11 <Blitzboom> it’s about initial distribution
2421 2011-03-08 18:12:13 <x6763> mmarker: the difficulty keeps the network secure from double-spending and also keeps the rate of coin generation under control
2422 2011-03-08 18:12:19 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: im talking about farzong again
2423 2011-03-08 18:12:22 <EvanR-work> theres 2 convos
2424 2011-03-08 18:12:23 <farzong> govts can create a market with bullets.. people need other ways
2425 2011-03-08 18:12:24 <Blitzboom> oh. sorry
2426 2011-03-08 18:12:26 <EvanR-work> lol
2427 2011-03-08 18:12:35 <mmarker> x6763: I see the coin generation, but having a hard time on double-spend
2428 2011-03-08 18:12:40 <Blitzboom> man, why are you still arguing over his? :D it involves central authority
2429 2011-03-08 18:12:43 <Blitzboom> and you can shut it down
2430 2011-03-08 18:12:44 <mmarker> since you have a lag time in when the difficulty gets nudged
2431 2011-03-08 18:12:49 <farzong> no central authority at all
2432 2011-03-08 18:12:57 <Blitzboom> of course there’d be
2433 2011-03-08 18:13:01 <Blitzboom> who would be mining?
2434 2011-03-08 18:13:04 <EvanR-work> no one
2435 2011-03-08 18:13:04 <Blitzboom> and why would he be?
2436 2011-03-08 18:13:07 <mmarker> granted, you have to be able to go REALLY fast to overcome difficulty gains as the block chain gets longer
2437 2011-03-08 18:13:08 <farzong> new coins are simply randomly distributed, rather than going to the miner (miner still gets a marginal transaction fee)
2438 2011-03-08 18:13:12 <Blitzboom> who processes transactions?
2439 2011-03-08 18:13:16 <farzong> why would anyone mine after 21 million coins?
2440 2011-03-08 18:13:24 <Blitzboom> for processing transactions
2441 2011-03-08 18:13:36 <lfm> farzong: the only way such a radical chage of the rules would have any chance of working was if you set up a separate clone/competitor to btc and compete with btc clasic
2442 2011-03-08 18:13:38 <farzong> exactly.. marginal fee as opposed to all the new coins
2443 2011-03-08 18:13:51 <x6763> mmarker: yes, as long as you're slower than the bitcoin network, you will fall further and further behind if trying to create a branch that allows you to double spend
2444 2011-03-08 18:13:59 <nanotube> TD: rising difficulty != borked. that's simply expected.
2445 2011-03-08 18:14:10 <gavinandresen> TD: re: -testnet:  difficulty was 32 last I checked, so at least it is a little better....
2446 2011-03-08 18:14:12 <nanotube> TD: that said, maybe we should create a /second/ testnet with fixed diff.
2447 2011-03-08 18:14:19 <EvanR-work> is double spending the same as putting in bogus generations?
2448 2011-03-08 18:14:24 <nanotube> gavinandresen: 32 is testnet-scale, 16 is mainnet-scale.
2449 2011-03-08 18:14:34 <mmarker> There's a Laplace transform in here somewhere!
2450 2011-03-08 18:14:41 * mmarker flexes his ChmE brain muscle!
2451 2011-03-08 18:15:12 <gavinandresen> Right!  I should fix getinfo to always report mainnet difficulty, (so testnet starting difficulty would be 0.5 or whatever)
2452 2011-03-08 18:15:16 <mmarker> nanotube: I just hack a fork of bitcoind to use my own IRC server and own clients... :D
2453 2011-03-08 18:15:40 <knotwork> farzong part of people's perception problem is they don't consider backing the coins
2454 2011-03-08 18:15:57 <gavinandresen> davout was violently against having testnet difficulty calcs different from mainnet.  I still think he's wrong.  Anybody seen him lately?
2455 2011-03-08 18:16:01 <knotwork> for example how many miners actually offer products, or even fiat currency, in return for the bitcoins they issue?
2456 2011-03-08 18:16:12 <Blitzboom> i’d like such an inflation rate: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6j-6oCV-Ay0biAHiz2CkZ9r9_8_3cBZylO5_gWjnilK9_O8PgbA
2457 2011-03-08 18:16:18 <EvanR-work> why do miners have to do that
2458 2011-03-08 18:16:18 <farzong> if ppl have an incentive to mine after 21 million coins, they will also mine for epsilon coins (rather than 50-per block)
2459 2011-03-08 18:16:22 <TD> nanotube: well, i know it's expected, but it makes it rather less useful for testing because it takes ages to get a block
2460 2011-03-08 18:16:29 <mmarker> Hmm, where IS the difficulty calculated in the client?
2461 2011-03-08 18:16:32 <EvanR-work> farzong: not cold turkey
2462 2011-03-08 18:16:35 <knotwork> merely manufacturing accounting tokens isnt the problem it is issuing them pretending they have value
2463 2011-03-08 18:16:37 <TD> i wonder if it'd be worth fixing the difficulty on the testnet so it can never go above 1
2464 2011-03-08 18:16:40 <farzong> its really identical.. no central control, no weaknesses beyond what we know.. the only question is how the newly minted coins are apportioned
2465 2011-03-08 18:16:41 <TD> regardless of how fast blocks are created
2466 2011-03-08 18:16:52 <knotwork> while trying to duck out of responsibility for providing that value that is the problem
2467 2011-03-08 18:17:08 <gavinandresen> TD: handling difficulty adjustments is something people will definitely want to test...
2468 2011-03-08 18:17:09 <farzong> knotwork: yeah backing is good
2469 2011-03-08 18:17:36 <EvanR-work> knotwork: there is absolutely no reason miners should provide goods and services besides a source of bitcoins
2470 2011-03-08 18:17:36 <gavinandresen> TD: I had a patch that adjusted testnet difficulty every 100 blocks instead of every 2,000, and allowed it to drop more than /4
2471 2011-03-08 18:17:38 <nanotube> gavinandresen: TD: hence my suggestion to have two testnets. one with difficulty adjustments, and one with fixed diff.
2472 2011-03-08 18:17:43 <TD> ah that sounds good
2473 2011-03-08 18:17:45 <knotwork> people would not be so envious of miners if they faced idea of having to provide 50 bitcoins goods in return
2474 2011-03-08 18:17:48 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  good idea, go for it.
2475 2011-03-08 18:17:51 <knotwork> for every 50 bitcoins they issue
2476 2011-03-08 18:17:55 <nanotube> those who want to test diff adjustments can do it on tn1, those who want fixed diff, use tn2
2477 2011-03-08 18:18:14 <nanotube> gavinandresen: lol i walked right into that one eh.
2478 2011-03-08 18:18:24 <farzong> lfm: interesting, im not sure.. i mean i dont really mind either way, but it seems to me such a rule change wouldnt be that hard.. actually its democratically controlled, peers would refuse to broadcast to other peers that were using the old rules
2479 2011-03-08 18:18:26 <nanotube> maybe TD will be up for it, since he's the one that wants it. :)
2480 2011-03-08 18:18:39 <farzong> or ppl just assume the amount was decremented
2481 2011-03-08 18:18:40 <knotwork> EvanR-work: there is not if they are simply like manufacturers of casino poker chips
2482 2011-03-08 18:18:43 <TD> gavins patch sounds like a good compromise solution
2483 2011-03-08 18:18:46 <gavinandresen> Actually, I think you could run both on the same genesis block...  hmmm....
2484 2011-03-08 18:18:54 <TD> it's not really the fact that difficulty is high that's the problem. it's that it takes a long time to go back down.
2485 2011-03-08 18:18:56 <EvanR-work> knotwork: or monopoly money? no
2486 2011-03-08 18:18:59 <gavinandresen> ... no, bad idea, transactions would get weird.
2487 2011-03-08 18:19:00 <knotwork> but there is if they also actually issue the chips, like a casino buying them would
2488 2011-03-08 18:19:20 <EvanR-work> gold miners do not buy gold, that would be idiotic
2489 2011-03-08 18:19:44 <nanotube> gavinandresen: TD: and while we are at it, maybe have bitcoin be able to read a 'setup file' that gives it parameters for a block chain (genesis block, difficulty adjustments, bounty per block and adjustments thereto, etc.)
2490 2011-03-08 18:19:45 <EvanR-work> they sell it
2491 2011-03-08 18:19:45 <TD> i guess it's also not so hard to just create your own testnet
2492 2011-03-08 18:19:50 <knotwork> diamond miners uphold the value of diamonds
2493 2011-03-08 18:20:00 <nanotube> that way anyone can easily bootstrap own chain without having to recompile
2494 2011-03-08 18:20:02 <knotwork> otherwise diamonds would be monopoloy crystals
2495 2011-03-08 18:20:02 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  I know!  We could call it 'bitcoin.conf'
2496 2011-03-08 18:20:03 <EvanR-work> diamonds are another subject
2497 2011-03-08 18:20:08 <EvanR-work> not all diamonds are identical
2498 2011-03-08 18:20:08 <TD> nanotube: well, maybe not from a file, but the code could be more abstracted. in bitcoinj there is a "NetworkParameters" class that contains this. it's useful for unit testing as well.
2499 2011-03-08 18:20:22 <knotwork> actually they are. those who have monopoly maintain the value
2500 2011-03-08 18:20:23 <farzong> they make the diamond miners strip down and work naked, so they cant conceal any gems
2501 2011-03-08 18:20:29 <TD> and yeah I'm planning on writing a few patches for the c++ client as well at some point ... just don't want to bite off more than i can chew :-)
2502 2011-03-08 18:20:30 <EvanR-work> no knotwork, thats wrong
2503 2011-03-08 18:20:32 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  I did think about soft-coding the testnet genesis block hash, etc etc into the bitcoin.conf file...
2504 2011-03-08 18:20:42 <nanotube> gavinandresen: haha well, probably a separate file would be better? since stuffing extra junk into .conf would confuse regular users.
2505 2011-03-08 18:20:42 <farzong> so theyre digging in 150 degree heat skin completely exposed
2506 2011-03-08 18:21:00 <gavinandresen> nanotube: regular users aren't going to be running on a testnet.
2507 2011-03-08 18:21:13 <nanotube> gavinandresen: heh good pt.
2508 2011-03-08 18:21:15 <knotwork> It woild be lovely to be able to run arbitrary blockchains with no compile
2509 2011-03-08 18:21:20 <gavinandresen> Anyway, "patches welcome"
2510 2011-03-08 18:21:26 <farzong> EvanR-work: if only a few miners have th ecomputing power to acquire new coins, how is that different from central control?
2511 2011-03-08 18:21:43 <TD> gavinandresen: to create a new testnet is it sufficient to just use -datadir=/a/b/c -testnet -noirc?
2512 2011-03-08 18:21:45 <EvanR-work> stop trolling
2513 2011-03-08 18:21:59 <TD> as it seems there are no seed nodes for the testnet currently. so without irc you should be alone.
2514 2011-03-08 18:22:04 <gavinandresen> TD: yes
2515 2011-03-08 18:22:13 <knotwork> LOCALE could include a locale currency per locale, so everyone can  have to blockchains they use, the main bitcoin one
2516 2011-03-08 18:22:15 <TD> then maybe it's as simple as that.
2517 2011-03-08 18:22:22 <knotwork> and their chosen locale one
2518 2011-03-08 18:22:44 <farzong> im not sure why you think an oligopoly is equal to capitalism (not at all, but sometimes de-facto yes)
2519 2011-03-08 18:22:44 <gavinandresen> TD: ... but you need at least two nodes, if I recall correctly one machine talking to nobody else won't generate.
2520 2011-03-08 18:22:56 <TD> ah
2521 2011-03-08 18:23:00 <TD> one with -nolisten then
2522 2011-03-08 18:23:14 <knotwork> td: ech blockchain should have its own IRC channel, and probably also its own listening port
2523 2011-03-08 18:23:16 <gavinandresen> TD:  ... and you have to wait until blocks mature before you can actually generate any transactions....
2524 2011-03-08 18:23:24 <knotwork> s/ech/each/
2525 2011-03-08 18:23:25 <TD> oh, good point. the maturation time, had forgotten about that.
2526 2011-03-08 18:23:34 <TD> knotwork: that's how it works already
2527 2011-03-08 18:23:54 <knotwork> I meant, each distinct testnet or localenet etc
2528 2011-03-08 18:24:09 <TD> i'll play with this setup at some point, if it works i'll stick it on the wiki. perhaps with the blk0001.dat for the first 120 blocks. it's convenient to have a global testnet, but it seems quite hard to keep it stable.
2529 2011-03-08 18:25:06 <gavinandresen> TD:  good idea, a pre-packaged difficulty-1 testnet block chain is a great idea.
2530 2011-03-08 18:25:27 <farzong> lets say 90% of the coins are in a few ppl's hands. how is that not the same as the Fed (who can do quantitative easing without even printing money)
2531 2011-03-08 18:25:28 <gavinandresen> TD:  ... along with a wallet.dat that can acutually spend those generated coins...
2532 2011-03-08 18:25:44 <farzong> the size of the coins held in reserve simply control inflation
2533 2011-03-08 18:25:45 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2534 2011-03-08 18:26:01 <EvanR-work> farzong: no
2535 2011-03-08 18:26:08 <TD> right
2536 2011-03-08 18:26:13 <farzong> now its true money can accumulate into a few ppls hands.. but if you start out with that distribution you guarantee it happens
2537 2011-03-08 18:26:47 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
2538 2011-03-08 18:27:20 <knotwork> farzong how about while we are at it we bribe current governments by automatically putting half the coins
2539 2011-03-08 18:27:24 <farzong> if china had dollar reserves equal to 90x US GDP they could create inflation at will without increasing the total supply just by adjusting reserves.. that is the situation you can end up with
2540 2011-03-08 18:27:29 <knotwork> generated into holding accounts to pay taxes with
2541 2011-03-08 18:27:47 <farzong> knotwork: interesting
2542 2011-03-08 18:27:47 <knotwork> or maybe 25% in a govt account and 25% into a potentially charity account
2543 2011-03-08 18:27:52 <EvanR-work> china actually has a giant chunk of us bonds
2544 2011-03-08 18:27:52 * TD -> out for the night
2545 2011-03-08 18:27:54 <TD> have a good day!
2546 2011-03-08 18:27:58 TD has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2547 2011-03-08 18:28:14 <knotwork> so if govt tax is over 25% the extra comes out of the charity account, or maybe the donation to charity might lower the tax
2548 2011-03-08 18:28:18 <EvanR-work> they can cash in whenever they want
2549 2011-03-08 18:28:18 <farzong> EvanR-work: true theyre a major force.. but they cant quite destroy us with the flick of a switch yet
2550 2011-03-08 18:28:24 <EvanR-work> they can
2551 2011-03-08 18:28:27 <EvanR-work> but they wont
2552 2011-03-08 18:28:42 <knotwork> so we only issue half the coins, what to do with the other half is up to govt and charities to work out between them
2553 2011-03-08 18:29:30 <farzong> chinas economy depends on us buying their exports
2554 2011-03-08 18:29:43 <EvanR-work> right, so destroying us would destroy them
2555 2011-03-08 18:29:51 <lfm> knotwork: eeewww sounds like a central authority to me
2556 2011-03-08 18:29:53 <farzong> at least until europe / africa gears up
2557 2011-03-08 18:30:02 <farzong> india/brazil etc
2558 2011-03-08 18:30:09 <EvanR-work> good plan, give most of the bitcoins to the government THEYll know what to do with them
2559 2011-03-08 18:30:11 <Kiba> EvanR-work: when you're interdependent, this is what happens
2560 2011-03-08 18:30:19 <farzong> so a hypothetical btc cartel however has no exports other than currency itself
2561 2011-03-08 18:30:23 <knotwork> lfm yes but existing authority we have to deal with anyway. why alienate them,
2562 2011-03-08 18:30:42 <knotwork> instead show them how bitcoin or a bitcoin type currency would be great national currency for them
2563 2011-03-08 18:30:50 <Kiba> interdependent mean more peace because disrupting trade relationship hurt themsleves.., not just you
2564 2011-03-08 18:30:54 <EvanR-work> Kiba: you are arguing for reduction in trade? individualism?
2565 2011-03-08 18:30:59 <lfm> let them make their own system, botcoin is what it is.
2566 2011-03-08 18:31:02 <Kiba> EvanR-work: I am arguing for more trade
2567 2011-03-08 18:31:05 <EvanR-work> oh
2568 2011-03-08 18:31:12 <EvanR-work> now youre making sense ;)
2569 2011-03-08 18:31:30 <knotwork> lfm botcoin is martian, martians dont set any aside for earthling govts
2570 2011-03-08 18:31:50 <mmarker> hmm, what's in a coinbase for the generation Tx?
2571 2011-03-08 18:31:51 <knotwork> but britcoin and Canadian Digital Notes might do well to plan on paying taxes on earth
2572 2011-03-08 18:32:29 <luke-jr> is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script incomplete?
2573 2011-03-08 18:32:29 <EvanR-work> i pay my taxes, what are you on about now
2574 2011-03-08 18:33:09 <lfm> knotwork: knotwork income taxes still apply to btc (even if some people ignore em)
2575 2011-03-08 18:33:24 * luke-jr pays income taxes on BTC generated
2576 2011-03-08 18:33:30 <luke-jr> well, not income taxes
2577 2011-03-08 18:33:31 <farzong> china had around 2.85 trillion USD in its foreign currency reserves.. 20% of annual GDP
2578 2011-03-08 18:33:38 <luke-jr> minting tax
2579 2011-03-08 18:33:45 <EvanR-work> uhm. minting tax?
2580 2011-03-08 18:33:45 <knotwork> yes I am thinking also value added tax for manufacturing/mining them, maybe capitol gains tax for even having them etc
2581 2011-03-08 18:34:09 <EvanR-work> capitol gains tax does not apply to just having them
2582 2011-03-08 18:34:18 <EvanR-work> capitle
2583 2011-03-08 18:34:20 <EvanR-work> capital
2584 2011-03-08 18:34:23 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: US has a tax for minting
2585 2011-03-08 18:34:27 <EvanR-work> minting what?
2586 2011-03-08 18:34:31 <luke-jr> currency
2587 2011-03-08 18:34:39 <EvanR-work> bitcoins arent minted
2588 2011-03-08 18:34:40 <farzong> so if a small handful of bitcoin megaholders can inflate the currency or deflate it by removing liquidity.. you have just recreated the Fed
2589 2011-03-08 18:34:41 <knotwork> of even more simply, bribes. if UK gov owns no Britcoin and CDN govt owns no Canadian Digital Notes
2590 2011-03-08 18:34:50 <knotwork> how likely are they to adopt them as national currency?
2591 2011-03-08 18:34:55 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: they are
2592 2011-03-08 18:34:59 <EvanR-work> i dont think so
2593 2011-03-08 18:35:02 <knotwork> not says its likely even if they do own a bunch
2594 2011-03-08 18:35:07 <knotwork> but might be *more* likely
2595 2011-03-08 18:35:39 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: generation mints new bitcoin
2596 2011-03-08 18:35:44 <luke-jr> US tax is 10% on it
2597 2011-03-08 18:35:44 <EvanR-work> no
2598 2011-03-08 18:35:55 <farzong> randomized seeding / variable decay tranches can mitigate it
2599 2011-03-08 18:36:07 <luke-jr> I currently owe 34.70 USD for minting taxes
2600 2011-03-08 18:36:09 * EvanR-work adds this to list of things luke-jr is wrong abuot
2601 2011-03-08 18:36:35 <luke-jr> anyhow, how can a Script interact with block height or time?
2602 2011-03-08 18:37:31 towerX is now known as tower
2603 2011-03-08 18:38:04 <farzong> <evanr-work> but it will be useless unless most of th eitcoin is controlled by a few ppl!
2604 2011-03-08 18:38:11 <MartianW> luke-jr, did you discuss it with an accountant?
2605 2011-03-08 18:38:20 <knotwork> luke-jr: if $[ `bitcoind --getblocknumber` -gt $x ]; then
2606 2011-03-08 18:38:25 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: can you provide a link to support the existence of a federal minting tax
2607 2011-03-08 18:38:54 <MartianW> You'll definitely be taxed on it the moment you convert it to cash.
2608 2011-03-08 18:39:02 <EvanR-work> thats just income tax
2609 2011-03-08 18:39:27 <farzong> i think the only legal issue for US based exchangers is to copmly with KYC - know your customerr regulations.. you are technically supposed to verify the person's ID before you give them stored value or whatever the govt deems to be money
2610 2011-03-08 18:39:35 <farzong> but outside the US i dont think its an issue
2611 2011-03-08 18:39:37 <knotwork> oops its just getblocknumbr not --getblocknumber
2612 2011-03-08 18:39:42 <EvanR-work> farzong: wrong
2613 2011-03-08 18:40:02 <farzong> ?
2614 2011-03-08 18:40:06 <luke-jr> MartianW: no, maybe I will before I pay my taxes
2615 2011-03-08 18:40:12 <EvanR-work> KYC is a standard policy in many countries
2616 2011-03-08 18:40:17 <luke-jr> knotwork: that's a BASH script, not a BitCoin Script
2617 2011-03-08 18:40:23 <farzong> oh yeah.. but its enforced diferently
2618 2011-03-08 18:40:38 <luke-jr> farzong: exchanger != miner
2619 2011-03-08 18:40:39 <knotwork> luke oh well you didnt specify language
2620 2011-03-08 18:40:45 <farzong> luke-jr: yep
2621 2011-03-08 18:41:00 <EvanR-work> i cant find a reference to minting tax
2622 2011-03-08 18:41:05 <knotwork> shoulda figured tonalscript tho instead of bash I guess
2623 2011-03-08 18:41:12 BlueMatt has joined
2624 2011-03-08 18:41:13 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
2625 2011-03-08 18:41:13 BlueMatt has joined
2626 2011-03-08 18:41:37 <luke-jr> knotwork: nothing Tonal-related
2627 2011-03-08 18:41:47 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
2628 2011-03-08 18:42:32 <luke-jr> I assume every peer needs to verify every script?
2629 2011-03-08 18:42:38 <farzong> in the US you get slapped for money laundering like e-gold
2630 2011-03-08 18:42:45 <farzong> elsewhere the regulations are much more lax
2631 2011-03-08 18:43:47 <farzong> tho i dont think they would bother with small amounts. e-gold let ppl transact millions with no verification whatsoever
2632 2011-03-08 18:44:06 <luke-jr> anyhow, I don't see any way to write that escrow Script :/
2633 2011-03-08 18:44:12 <luke-jr> wish I remember who said it was possible
2634 2011-03-08 18:44:37 <MartianW> luke-jr, writing one might be possible, but you're not going to get it into the block chain.
2635 2011-03-08 18:44:37 <luke-jr> so now that's 2 new OPs needed for useful scripting
2636 2011-03-08 18:44:44 <luke-jr> MartianW: no?
2637 2011-03-08 18:44:47 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: exactly what form would you use to pay a minting tax?
2638 2011-03-08 18:44:57 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: taxes must be paid in USD
2639 2011-03-08 18:44:57 <knotwork> luke that wiki page says you can require more than one signature
2640 2011-03-08 18:45:05 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: what form?
2641 2011-03-08 18:45:07 <luke-jr> knotwork: sure, but that's not the same
2642 2011-03-08 18:45:19 <knotwork> so could you not require both the people to sign it before anyone can get the money?
2643 2011-03-08 18:45:20 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: …
2644 2011-03-08 18:45:24 <luke-jr> nfc
2645 2011-03-08 18:45:29 <MartianW> The normal clients refuse to accept any transaction that's uses a custom script. Once it's been confirmed though, it'll be accepted.
2646 2011-03-08 18:45:31 <EvanR-work> nfc?
2647 2011-03-08 18:45:38 <luke-jr> knotwork: that doesn't really solve it
2648 2011-03-08 18:45:49 <luke-jr> well, I guess it sortof might
2649 2011-03-08 18:46:07 <luke-jr> MartianW: exactly. so it gets in after a while
2650 2011-03-08 18:46:13 <luke-jr> MartianW: I accept custom scripts in my miner.
2651 2011-03-08 18:46:22 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: no freaking clue.
2652 2011-03-08 18:46:23 <knotwork> you wont need a third party escrow agent as he entire network would serve as that
2653 2011-03-08 18:46:41 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: why do you think you owe this tax?
2654 2011-03-08 18:46:48 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: someone here mentioend it
2655 2011-03-08 18:46:52 <EvanR-work> who?
2656 2011-03-08 18:46:58 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: I'll look it up when I actually go to pay it
2657 2011-03-08 18:47:15 <farzong> there are lots of local currencies
2658 2011-03-08 18:47:16 <EvanR-work> im doing my taxes, i know all about federal taxes right now
2659 2011-03-08 18:47:24 <farzong> they dont have to pay a minting tax (at least not since the middle ages)
2660 2011-03-08 18:47:25 <knotwork> maybe look up franklin mint see if their legal pages mention their minting license or minting tax number
2661 2011-03-08 18:47:54 <EvanR-work> there is no mention of minting tax in the manuals, google, wikipedia, nothing
2662 2011-03-08 18:48:18 <EvanR-work> you were probably fed false information
2663 2011-03-08 18:48:31 <EvanR-work> not that it would apply to bitcoins
2664 2011-03-08 18:49:23 <farzong> http://www.berkshares.org/
2665 2011-03-08 18:50:06 <EvanR-work> massachusetts
2666 2011-03-08 18:50:46 * mmarker giggles at the "Franklin Mint"
2667 2011-03-08 18:52:29 <luke-jr> [Tuesday, March 01, 2011] [9:50:41 am] <hazek>  There is a 10% tax on any bank or association or person issuing a private currency that is being used locally as money
2668 2011-03-08 18:52:50 <Aciid> luke-jr: STOP THE FED
2669 2011-03-08 18:53:07 <Blitzboom> well, bitcoins are used globally
2670 2011-03-08 18:53:22 <Aciid> im not going to pay anyone tax's of my bitcoins
2671 2011-03-08 18:53:43 <BlueMatt> bitcoin isn't legally money, its just an online commodity, like m$ points, facebook credits
2672 2011-03-08 18:54:07 <Blitzboom> what’s the difference?
2673 2011-03-08 18:54:11 <Blitzboom> missing central bank?
2674 2011-03-08 18:54:18 <BlueMatt> pretty much
2675 2011-03-08 18:54:26 <Aciid> im paying "quick transfer" tax tho
2676 2011-03-08 18:54:41 <Aciid> on the client
2677 2011-03-08 18:54:50 <BlueMatt> quick transfer?
2678 2011-03-08 18:55:35 <farzong> 10% tax??
2679 2011-03-08 18:55:46 <farzong> no such tax in the US
2680 2011-03-08 18:56:06 <slush> Aciid: I'll probably pay taxes from my Bitcoin withdrawals
2681 2011-03-08 18:56:16 <slush> Aciid: in my case, 15%
2682 2011-03-08 18:56:33 <BlueMatt> yea for withdrawls its income on invested money
2683 2011-03-08 18:56:53 <BlueMatt> just like buying and selling gold or bonds
2684 2011-03-08 18:57:50 Xunie has joined
2685 2011-03-08 18:58:41 <Aciid> BlueMatt: check your bitcoin client.
2686 2011-03-08 19:00:07 <genjix> how big is a PEM file?
2687 2011-03-08 19:00:59 <luke-jr> Aciid: break the law at your own risk
2688 2011-03-08 19:01:56 <BlueMatt> Aciid: last time I checked tx fees have nothing to do with processing speed. Thats only theoritical.  Its only there because a tx wont be incorporated w/o one if its >x KB or one out put is < 0.01
2689 2011-03-08 19:02:08 <genjix> i hope it's always 1kb...
2690 2011-03-08 19:02:43 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2691 2011-03-08 19:02:44 <BlueMatt> genjix: I believe it depends on key size
2692 2011-03-08 19:02:51 <genjix> 1024
2693 2011-03-08 19:03:39 <BlueMatt> genjix: thats a good way to piss people off, though from what I can tell it is (my 4096 bit keys have 4096 pem files)
2694 2011-03-08 19:03:47 <farzong> gimme some bitcoins
2695 2011-03-08 19:03:52 <farzong> "ill suck your dick"
2696 2011-03-08 19:06:26 <farzong> how is me signing a billion unique units cryptosigned and sending them to the winds different from mining.. in the end (once the finite supply is reached and no new coins can be signed (out of range) or mined (21M limit))
2697 2011-03-08 19:06:41 <farzong> te only difference is the distribution of currency holders
2698 2011-03-08 19:07:03 <nanotube> farzong: the difference is that only one person controls distribution (that's you)
2699 2011-03-08 19:07:09 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, tx fees affect speed in practice too
2700 2011-03-08 19:07:32 <nanotube> farzong: the other difference is, you'll have a harder time preserving block chain integrity.
2701 2011-03-08 19:07:33 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how many miners follow that? The main client doesnt?
2702 2011-03-08 19:07:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the main client does
2703 2011-03-08 19:07:41 <farzong> nanotube: in that case no, since i transferred all the units to other ppl. i cant create new units because the proof of work chain already contains the transfer of ownership to them
2704 2011-03-08 19:07:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: since when, where and how (algo)?
2705 2011-03-08 19:07:57 <nanotube> farzong: since nobody will really have much incentive to keep creating new blocks.
2706 2011-03-08 19:08:08 <nanotube> farzong: yes but who did you transfer them two?
2707 2011-03-08 19:08:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it allows up to 4 KB of tx without a fee per block; after that, fees are required or you wait until the next block
2708 2011-03-08 19:08:18 <farzong> nanotube: incentive is marginal fee on the order of .00001 units
2709 2011-03-08 19:08:22 <luke-jr> unless it fills up too, then you keep waiting
2710 2011-03-08 19:08:39 <nanotube> farzong: i assume you basically generate 21m block bounty in the genesis block, then you arbitrarily give out some to people yes? so you have absolute authority on who gets some?
2711 2011-03-08 19:08:46 <farzong> nanotube: to a random gmail/facebook account or whoever signed up to receive them...
2712 2011-03-08 19:08:53 <farzong> nanotube: which can be verified by randomly sampling the population
2713 2011-03-08 19:08:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh, didnt know that.  I though it was only based on individual tx sizes
2714 2011-03-08 19:09:14 bitcoiner has joined
2715 2011-03-08 19:09:19 <farzong> nanotube: yep.. but in the current case, ownership is controlled by a small cartel (the megaminers who hold 90% of the currency)
2716 2011-03-08 19:09:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and when there's a lot of tx, like lately with tx spam, that free area fills up fast
2717 2011-03-08 19:09:36 <farzong> so someone who explicitly gives it away and can verify it with a random sample /survey is more distributed
2718 2011-03-08 19:09:43 <nanotube> farzong: well good luck. see how it works out for you. ;) i'll be sure to create a few thousand gmail accounts to get a nice chunk once you start distributing. :P
2719 2011-03-08 19:09:48 <[Noodles]> farzong: what keeps me from 'signing up' twice, to get more coins?
2720 2011-03-08 19:09:49 <knotwork> farzong so wanna actually do this instead of merely blathering on about it?
2721 2011-03-08 19:10:08 <farzong> nanotube: sure, you can get a few thousand units, but you wouldnt be able to exert control over it. unlike now, where a handful of miners own it all
2722 2011-03-08 19:10:15 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: in my case, my "free area" is simply a 10% discount area
2723 2011-03-08 19:10:26 <[Noodles]> i can create a few hundred gmail-accs for sure, why not do it, if it gives me coins?
2724 2011-03-08 19:10:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so no matter how much traffic, if I find the next block, your tx won't get in without *some* fee
2725 2011-03-08 19:10:47 <farzong> [Noodles]: thats fine.. a hundred isn't a lot. the average coins per person would be very high (whereas now its very low)
2726 2011-03-08 19:10:49 <nanotube> farzong: we don't know who holds what currency. at least one 'megaminer' that we know of, only holds a few 10k of bitcoins.
2727 2011-03-08 19:10:58 <nanotube> farzong: so it is a far-fetched assumption that 'only a few megaminers' hold 90% of currency.
2728 2011-03-08 19:11:00 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: what if he requires SMS verification of accounts? ;)
2729 2011-03-08 19:11:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well have fun with that. Those of us who think bitcoin will be more successful because one of its biggest advantages is free txes will keep mining any txes that come along
2730 2011-03-08 19:11:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: free tx is temporary, no matter what.
2731 2011-03-08 19:11:43 <farzong> nanotube: hmm im not sure its so far fetched.. the early adopters who mined early on werent that many.. and now its the megaminers who have the power to generate blocks. seems like a very exxcluvise community, combined with the relatively low transaction volumes, its a pretty good sign
2732 2011-03-08 19:12:21 <farzong> how many power-users are on the bitcoin message board? not that many.. are there any dedicated miners outside of that group.. probably not
2733 2011-03-08 19:12:23 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: even if you were to allow your block to be filled with free tx, there will eventually be too much demand for free tx that it will take weeks to get in one
2734 2011-03-08 19:12:27 <knotwork> farzong so lets do it
2735 2011-03-08 19:13:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: true, but right now, if people are going to be pushing bitcoin as "free txes" making sure everyone pays a tx fee is ridiculous
2736 2011-03-08 19:13:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: people shouldn't be pushing it with "free txes"
2737 2011-03-08 19:13:33 <farzong> my micro-suggestion was to take the 50-btc bounty for blocks and randomly distribute 90% of it to random bitcoin accounts / signed-up users...
2738 2011-03-08 19:13:34 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's false advertising
2739 2011-03-08 19:13:46 <farzong> i.e. a rule-change in block gen
2740 2011-03-08 19:13:47 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that is one of its biggest advantages, otherwise what do we have over pp or dw?
2741 2011-03-08 19:13:55 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Tonal support
2742 2011-03-08 19:13:59 <nanotube> farzong: according to bitcoinwatch, Bitcoins sent last 24h:165358.16 BTC so not so low tx volumes.
2743 2011-03-08 19:14:00 <x6763> BlueMatt: cheaper fees
2744 2011-03-08 19:14:03 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: who the fuck cares about tonal?
2745 2011-03-08 19:14:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: me ☺
2746 2011-03-08 19:14:09 <edcba_> luke-jr:
2747 2011-03-08 19:14:15 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no its not false advertising until we get so much tx spam that free txes dont get accepted
2748 2011-03-08 19:14:24 <farzong> nanotube: how much is in circulation at this point.. i dont remember
2749 2011-03-08 19:14:33 <[Noodles]> noone knows
2750 2011-03-08 19:14:39 <farzong> err ho wmuch in existence
2751 2011-03-08 19:14:40 <farzong> rather
2752 2011-03-08 19:14:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it is, unless you say "free tx for a limited time" ;)
2753 2011-03-08 19:14:47 <x6763> ;;bc,stats
2754 2011-03-08 19:14:48 <edcba_> haha
2755 2011-03-08 19:14:49 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112760 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 135 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 13 hours, 41 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77421.88701013
2756 2011-03-08 19:14:52 <nanotube> farzong: 5 million or so
2757 2011-03-08 19:14:59 <BlueMatt> fahadsadah: blocks * 50
2758 2011-03-08 19:14:59 <lfm> ;;bc,totalbc
2759 2011-03-08 19:14:59 <gribble> 5638000.00000000
2760 2011-03-08 19:15:03 <edcba_> free tx if you have enough computing power :)
2761 2011-03-08 19:15:14 <edcba_> and/or patience
2762 2011-03-08 19:15:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well have fun, Im gonna start mining and not accepting txes with fee
2763 2011-03-08 19:15:31 <farzong> pretty cool.. well we can estimate the size of the liquid currency pool (vs. hoarders)
2764 2011-03-08 19:15:33 <knotwork> farzong are you able to compile bitcoin from source? also what would you like to call your randomly distributed currency?
2765 2011-03-08 19:15:45 <Blitzboom> haha BlueMatt
2766 2011-03-08 19:15:48 <Blitzboom> thums up
2767 2011-03-08 19:15:50 <Blitzboom> thumbs up
2768 2011-03-08 19:15:51 <lfm> BlueMatt: hehe yay, more fees for the rest of us
2769 2011-03-08 19:15:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's stupid
2770 2011-03-08 19:16:00 <luke-jr> but yeah, like lfm said
2771 2011-03-08 19:16:02 <knotwork> farzong I would of course be pleased if you would attribute it to a nation listed in Freeciv, so I can also use
2772 2011-03-08 19:16:11 <knotwork> it as a national currency in the Galactic Milieu game
2773 2011-03-08 19:16:29 <farzong> federated micronation economic zone?
2774 2011-03-08 19:16:29 <farzong> cool
2775 2011-03-08 19:16:36 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: why is that stupid, I dont get .01 btc / 100 blocks and I support the bitcoin community?
2776 2011-03-08 19:16:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you punish people who want to pay for priority
2777 2011-03-08 19:17:06 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea, because that is bad for the community
2778 2011-03-08 19:17:06 <lfm> so can we define a hoarder? one who holds on to BTC for x months?
2779 2011-03-08 19:17:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: better would be to assign the fee to one of the outputs
2780 2011-03-08 19:17:22 <knotwork> farzone united nations is closest freeciv has a federation of nations I think. but maybe GUN shares
2781 2011-03-08 19:17:30 <knotwork> could be distributed as you suggest
2782 2011-03-08 19:17:42 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: assign the fee to an output?
2783 2011-03-08 19:17:45 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: while you're at it, why don't you split the 50 BTC generated among the tx outputs too?
2784 2011-03-08 19:17:57 <knotwork> the current plan had been to distribute them based on shares already owned, some the day dividends get paid
2785 2011-03-08 19:18:03 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: sounds good to me
2786 2011-03-08 19:18:24 <bitcoiner> u creating a new system ?
2787 2011-03-08 19:18:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: actually, if you do that, it gives me a good reason to make lots of free tx spam ;)
2788 2011-03-08 19:18:34 <lfm> I think once a day should be plenty
2789 2011-03-08 19:18:43 <farzong> actually you coul throw some of the bountycoin into a bitbank.. and lend it out at negative interest to newcomers later on
2790 2011-03-08 19:18:43 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: just how much mining power do you control btw?
2791 2011-03-08 19:19:04 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I understand the need to fight tx spam, but for now its not a problem and there is no reason to hurt the bitcoin community for no reason
2792 2011-03-08 19:19:17 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it is a problem, pay attention
2793 2011-03-08 19:19:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: why do you think the Faucet pays fees now?
2794 2011-03-08 19:19:50 <x6763> BlueMatt: were you around last week when there were lots of transactions going through and transactions taking many hours to get a single confirmation while the transaction pools had a backlog of over 1000?
2795 2011-03-08 19:19:51 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how many blocks are so filled with tx spam that no real txes can get in?
2796 2011-03-08 19:20:02 <knotwork> farzong what nationality are you actually, if that is not ttoo private a thing
2797 2011-03-08 19:20:15 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: enough that before Faucet paid fees, people had to wait hours or days
2798 2011-03-08 19:20:19 <lfm> if you can accept a few hours delay, fees are not needed now
2799 2011-03-08 19:20:22 <farzong> im in mexico knotwork
2800 2011-03-08 19:20:31 <BlueMatt> though its probably not a bad idea to force fees for more than 0.01
2801 2011-03-08 19:20:36 <slush> there is no possibility to set fees using RPC?
2802 2011-03-08 19:20:39 <slush> damn
2803 2011-03-08 19:20:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: erm, what? the main client forces fees for LESS than 0.01, always
2804 2011-03-08 19:20:58 <knotwork> aha cool, no player has selected mexico yet. maybe we can find a mexican nation in the galaxy have it
2805 2011-03-08 19:21:01 <lfm> slush only the command line option for all sent txn
2806 2011-03-08 19:21:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I mean force fee for less than like 0.05 or 0.50
2807 2011-03-08 19:21:12 <luke-jr> knotwork: are you forming a Freeciv game?
2808 2011-03-08 19:21:14 <knotwork> go to communist govt with you in charge and implement your idea
2809 2011-03-08 19:21:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: why? that's silly
2810 2011-03-08 19:21:33 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but forcing fees for all txes is silly
2811 2011-03-08 19:21:38 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: why is that silly?
2812 2011-03-08 19:21:39 <luke-jr> not at all
2813 2011-03-08 19:21:39 <knotwork> luke-jr: many freeciv games, with starship travel from one game to another, a Galactic Milieu
2814 2011-03-08 19:21:41 <MartianW> Why does it force fees?
2815 2011-03-08 19:21:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it's silly because you have to pay to send less
2816 2011-03-08 19:21:49 <knotwork> using the Galactic Ruleset
2817 2011-03-08 19:22:02 <MartianW> Would it just be enough to prioritize those with fees?
2818 2011-03-08 19:22:04 <lfm> knotwork: you maen dictatorship. communist is different
2819 2011-03-08 19:22:08 <luke-jr> knotwork: this works with standard Freeciv?
2820 2011-03-08 19:22:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: tx spam, by definition is alot of low output txes
2821 2011-03-08 19:22:13 phantomcircuit has joined
2822 2011-03-08 19:22:17 <slush> lfm: is there reason to not allow change thru RPC or it is just because nobody did it?
2823 2011-03-08 19:22:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats what fees are now
2824 2011-03-08 19:22:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: tx spam lately has pretty high outputs :p
2825 2011-03-08 19:22:28 <knotwork> freeciv 2.3, with Galactic Ruleset
2826 2011-03-08 19:22:45 <luke-jr> slush: RPC can't do a lot of sensible things
2827 2011-03-08 19:23:00 <luke-jr> slush: note it to be fixed with the new protocol: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
2828 2011-03-08 19:23:07 <farzong> US: M1 money supply: 1.6 trillion; M2 money supply: 8.3 trillion; GDP: 14.12 trillion; so the transaction volume is either 1.7 times the money supply or 9.4 trimes the money supply.. depending on various whatevers and loonbat back of the envelope guesses... so if btc daily volume is 130000, money supply in active circulation might be 14,000 (out of 5 million = 0.3%)
2829 2011-03-08 19:23:09 <knotwork> lfm right, communist is like star trek I guess, dicatorship maybe closer to what we called communist on earth
2830 2011-03-08 19:23:21 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ok thats fine, but you should do more checks than just requiring fees for all txes
2831 2011-03-08 19:23:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: why?
2832 2011-03-08 19:23:36 <lfm> slash could be done as a variation on the regular send funds with an extra parm
2833 2011-03-08 19:23:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it doesn't do me any good to include tx without fees
2834 2011-03-08 19:24:08 <slush> luke-jr I don't see any real trouble with current RPC, only few missing methods
2835 2011-03-08 19:24:11 <x6763> BlueMatt: luke-jr is providing a nice service allowing for non-standard transaction scripts, etc....and he is, just like every other miner, free to set minimum fees however he wants
2836 2011-03-08 19:24:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea it does, it helps the network a lot and helps people easily push bitcoin to businesses which increases your btc's value
2837 2011-03-08 19:24:32 <BlueMatt> x6763: that is true, I just think its pretty bad for the community
2838 2011-03-08 19:24:34 <luke-jr> slush: really? I thought it was causing you problems with all the getworks ;)
2839 2011-03-08 19:24:41 <farzong> of course that estimate is wildly incorrect, since at this point i think the transaction volume is less than active money supply (because there are no instruments / ious / checks etc)
2840 2011-03-08 19:24:51 <knotwork> farzong I dont recall seeing any mexican nation in galaxy yet, but Aztec is huge maybe on several planets
2841 2011-03-08 19:25:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: getwork is not done well, but most rpc is great
2842 2011-03-08 19:25:01 <farzong> quetzlcoatl!
2843 2011-03-08 19:25:02 <lfm> luke-jr ya getwork is a minor problem. it mostly works fine
2844 2011-03-08 19:25:09 <slush> luke-jr I'm talking about common interaction with bitcoin; mining is another part
2845 2011-03-08 19:25:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: JSON-RPC is great for a few specific tasks. It doesn't work for a lot of others.
2846 2011-03-08 19:25:26 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: like?
2847 2011-03-08 19:25:31 <luke-jr> like writing UIs
2848 2011-03-08 19:25:39 <luke-jr> or mining pools
2849 2011-03-08 19:25:41 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how is rpc bad for uis?
2850 2011-03-08 19:25:53 <slush> luke-jr well, standalone bitcoin library would be great
2851 2011-03-08 19:25:54 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: though it isnt good for pools that is very true
2852 2011-03-08 19:25:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you have to poll it, mainly
2853 2011-03-08 19:26:06 Lachesis has joined
2854 2011-03-08 19:26:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and you need to fetch the data for every tx every poll
2855 2011-03-08 19:26:10 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that creates almost no load, especially for just one client
2856 2011-03-08 19:26:11 <farzong> anyway i love bitcoin.. im buying more
2857 2011-03-08 19:26:14 <farzong> i think its a good investment
2858 2011-03-08 19:26:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you can easily cache txes
2859 2011-03-08 19:26:31 <farzong> the best currency we have now is bitcoin
2860 2011-03-08 19:26:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: erm, it creates plenty of load if you do it too often, and latency if you don't
2861 2011-03-08 19:26:49 <luke-jr> and it's very inefficient in both cases
2862 2011-03-08 19:26:49 <farzong> i think some tweaks would be good to spur user adoption
2863 2011-03-08 19:26:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you can't cache txes
2864 2011-03-08 19:27:00 <farzong> but its all doable within the btc framework
2865 2011-03-08 19:27:03 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how often do you possibly poll your rpc, what kind of uis need updates every .1 sec
2866 2011-03-08 19:27:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: UI should update in realtime
2867 2011-03-08 19:27:28 <BlueMatt> farzong: it needs pushed to businesses more than anything really
2868 2011-03-08 19:27:29 akem has joined
2869 2011-03-08 19:27:50 <lfm> BlueMatt: checking for incoming txn mainly I guess
2870 2011-03-08 19:27:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: real time as in like 1 sec, which is almost no load unless you are in a low latency environment
2871 2011-03-08 19:28:18 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: fetching 1000+ tx every second would make some load
2872 2011-03-08 19:28:19 <slush> BlueMatt: but I must agree that polling is ugly
2873 2011-03-08 19:28:25 <luke-jr> especially if you're doing it over a cellular link
2874 2011-03-08 19:28:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you shouldnt be fetching all the txes over a cell link, do something like js-remote
2875 2011-03-08 19:28:52 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: which just shows the most recent x txes
2876 2011-03-08 19:28:55 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: as a UI author, I have first-hand experience in this area
2877 2011-03-08 19:29:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I want a fancy scrollable thing with all my tx ever
2878 2011-03-08 19:29:17 <slush> In the context of real business, the bitcoinj is step in right direction
2879 2011-03-08 19:29:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: thats great, but its not *terrible* its not ideal, but do you have an idea that is so much better?
2880 2011-03-08 19:29:33 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: a proper interactive protocol for wallet access
2881 2011-03-08 19:29:41 <slush> unfortunately java is another language which I dislike :)
2882 2011-03-08 19:29:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that gets very complicated
2883 2011-03-08 19:29:49 <lfm> luke-jr so only fetch the txn that are on the screen
2884 2011-03-08 19:30:04 <luke-jr> lfm: easier said than done, using toolkits
2885 2011-03-08 19:30:14 <BlueMatt> slush: its not terrible, it used to be slow but its good for the most part
2886 2011-03-08 19:30:26 <lfm> sorry, I am not responsible for your choice of toolkits
2887 2011-03-08 19:30:57 <luke-jr> any toolkit has this problem
2888 2011-03-08 19:31:03 <luke-jr> and its' not REALLY a problem
2889 2011-03-08 19:31:07 <luke-jr> because polling shouldn't be used
2890 2011-03-08 19:31:15 <lfm> for certain definitions of "any"
2891 2011-03-08 19:31:43 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: write a better protocol and submit a pull request, its easier said than done to get a better protocol that fixes all the problems you want to fix
2892 2011-03-08 19:32:40 <knotwork> farzong: I found mexicans. they get to start in late 1500's or early 1600's, on a planet the Martians will call M12
2893 2011-03-08 19:32:46 <knotwork> when the martians actually get there
2894 2011-03-08 19:33:16 <knotwork> aztecs that were huge were on M4, refused to make peace with Martians, and now are no longer a nation there
2895 2011-03-08 19:33:19 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's why I'm doing it properly: first, the community goes over requirements for the protocol; then, we decide the best way to meet those requirements at the protocol level
2896 2011-03-08 19:33:23 <luke-jr> finally, we write implementations
2897 2011-03-08 19:33:42 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: the community and especially the talented devs within have much better things to be doing
2898 2011-03-08 19:33:50 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol has the current draft requirements; people interested in wallet-related tasks should read it and fill in anything missing
2899 2011-03-08 19:34:12 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2900 2011-03-08 19:34:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I agree, its a great idea and it could help with some aspects, but gavin and tcatm and the other real devs here have better things to be doing
2901 2011-03-08 19:35:16 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: are you implying anyone who works on fixing problems with the status quo isn't a "real dev"?
2902 2011-03-08 19:35:58 <edcba_> real devs can code...
2903 2011-03-08 19:36:29 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, 1. how is this fixing the staus quo. 2. I was referring to the devs of the main client and the devs here who are working on java clients (more clients is more important, really) and miner coders, etc
2904 2011-03-08 19:37:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: JSON-RPC is fundamentally broken for everything but webapps basically
2905 2011-03-08 19:38:15 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I completely disagree, its not idea but really, it doesnt have as huge of problems as you seem to think
2906 2011-03-08 19:38:18 <luke-jr> writing clients correctly inherently REQUIRES a protocol for this, and writing to JSON-RPC is painful and requires doing everything wrong
2907 2011-03-08 19:38:26 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it DOES
2908 2011-03-08 19:38:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how much different is your proposed protocol, it still makes 1 conenction, then requests individual things to get the info it needs
2909 2011-03-08 19:38:59 <luke-jr> AFAIK, Spesmilo (developed by genjix and I) is the only mostly-working alternative UI that even tries to use JSON-RPC
2910 2011-03-08 19:39:26 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I haven't proposed any protocol, it's still in the requirements stage. One of the requirements is to NOT require polling.
2911 2011-03-08 19:40:08 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so the biggest difference is pushing new info...why not work with the people who are working on a new getwork and make one big replacement
2912 2011-03-08 19:40:35 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's the point, I hope they do combine the effort
2913 2011-03-08 19:40:54 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: slush never answers when I ask where they've been working on it, and obviously they're *only* focussing on mining
2914 2011-03-08 19:41:02 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: or write a new rpc command which returns all the info you want in one big result, and poll it once every x seconds set by the user, defaulting to 30 sec or so
2915 2011-03-08 19:41:09 <luke-jr> but yes, this protocol does aim to solve the mining issues too
2916 2011-03-08 19:41:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that doesn't fix anything, just makes it worse.
2917 2011-03-08 19:41:41 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how?
2918 2011-03-08 19:41:59 <luke-jr> because the problems are still there
2919 2011-03-08 19:43:06 <BlueMatt> what problems, its not great for low-latency because it has to regularly request info, other than that I see no real problem with rpc as a protocol
2920 2011-03-08 19:43:34 <genjix> ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
2921 2011-03-08 19:43:46 <BlueMatt> genjix: yes?
2922 2011-03-08 19:43:53 <genjix> what kind of idiot still packages libraries without a top level directory!
2923 2011-03-08 19:44:06 <genjix> and 300 files!
2924 2011-03-08 19:44:07 <BlueMatt> genjix: where?
2925 2011-03-08 19:44:18 <genjix> http://www.cryptopp.com/
2926 2011-03-08 19:44:24 <BlueMatt> genjix: ouch, sucks
2927 2011-03-08 19:44:26 philipwhiterm66 has joined
2928 2011-03-08 19:44:31 <BlueMatt> genjix: hate when that happens
2929 2011-03-08 19:44:45 <genjix> bash needs an undo command
2930 2011-03-08 19:44:52 <BlueMatt> lol, we all wish
2931 2011-03-08 19:45:35 xelister has joined
2932 2011-03-08 19:45:39 philipwhiterm66 has quit (Client Quit)
2933 2011-03-08 19:45:40 mmarker has quit (Quit: boop)
2934 2011-03-08 19:46:25 <knotwork> genjix how many times of doing that does it take before doing tar -tzf first becomes ingrained habit?
2935 2011-03-08 19:46:40 <luke-jr> knotwork: easier to mkdir x && cd x then move
2936 2011-03-08 19:47:04 <genjix> knotwork: didn't know about t
2937 2011-03-08 19:47:05 <Aciid> Ctrl+C on poclbm.exe, "Do you want to quit (Y/N)?" N, Enter
2938 2011-03-08 19:47:06 <genjix> thanks
2939 2011-03-08 19:47:08 <Aciid> exits anyways
2940 2011-03-08 19:47:09 <Aciid> lol
2941 2011-03-08 19:47:11 <knotwork> I dunnno, I also dont like doing that then finding the archive does have a toplevel dir in it already
2942 2011-03-08 19:47:12 <genjix> btw you don't need -
2943 2011-03-08 19:47:19 <cschneid> Aciid: windows is dumb.
2944 2011-03-08 19:47:42 <Aciid> cschneid: my linux installations give me bad wibes
2945 2011-03-08 19:47:53 <luke-jr> Aciid: what? poclbm doesn't ask…
2946 2011-03-08 19:47:55 <BlueMatt> Aciid: bad vibes?
2947 2011-03-08 19:47:57 <Aciid> my /home precisely
2948 2011-03-08 19:48:04 <BlueMatt> Aciid: how so?
2949 2011-03-08 19:48:11 <Aciid> BlueMatt: had same home for 5years now
2950 2011-03-08 19:48:19 <Aciid> lots of stuff that would wish not to see
2951 2011-03-08 19:48:28 <Aciid> separate partition
2952 2011-03-08 19:49:03 <BlueMatt> Aciid: you want to move /home onto your main partition?
2953 2011-03-08 19:49:08 <Aciid> no,
2954 2011-03-08 19:49:22 <EvanR-work> bad wives
2955 2011-03-08 19:49:32 <Aciid> its more like that my $HOME reminds me that "Dont stick your thing in crazy"
2956 2011-03-08 19:49:39 <BlueMatt> wait linux comes with wives now?
2957 2011-03-08 19:49:43 <genjix> Is it secure enough to secure a wallet using a user passed password and store the key in memory?
2958 2011-03-08 19:49:46 <genjix> Or does it need a long key phrase encrypted with RSA?
2959 2011-03-08 19:49:50 <EvanR-work> yes, russian ones
2960 2011-03-08 19:49:51 <genjix> AES
2961 2011-03-08 19:49:53 <knotwork> genjix well guess what kind of events led to my making it my business to *discover* the t ;) :)
2962 2011-03-08 19:50:06 <BurtyB> yikes if it comes with a wife the cost of ownership is going to skyrocket
2963 2011-03-08 19:50:43 <cosurgi> you get what you pay for.
2964 2011-03-08 19:51:11 <EvanR-work> TCO, get the facts
2965 2011-03-08 19:51:47 <EvanR-work> first she spends most of your paycheck on nothing then divorces you and takes half you assests
2966 2011-03-08 19:51:56 agorist has joined
2967 2011-03-08 19:52:16 <BlueMatt> well I guess Im stuck with old linux versions that are wife-less
2968 2011-03-08 19:52:35 <cosurgi> just don't aptitude full-upgrade and your're safe :)
2969 2011-03-08 19:52:57 <Kiba> gene had degenerated himself into a fucking idiot
2970 2011-03-08 19:53:37 <cosurgi> however if a woman installs this version of linux it gets interesting :)
2971 2011-03-08 20:05:35 Sedo has joined
2972 2011-03-08 20:06:08 <phantomcircuit> rofl
2973 2011-03-08 20:06:16 <phantomcircuit> ok so sqlite3 is slow usually
2974 2011-03-08 20:06:19 <phantomcircuit> but this is just ridiculous
2975 2011-03-08 20:08:07 <slush> luke-jr about "wallet protocol". There are too many people with too different intentions that I see extremely hard to make one conclusion
2976 2011-03-08 20:08:13 <nanotube> phantomcircuit: what kind of dataset are you stuffing in there?
2977 2011-03-08 20:08:24 <slush> luke-jr that means we will have json rpc for a long time + many patches/alternatives
2978 2011-03-08 20:08:30 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, block/tx
2979 2011-03-08 20:08:31 <phantomcircuit> lol
2980 2011-03-08 20:08:46 <luke-jr> slush: I don't see how your conclusion follows from the first part
2981 2011-03-08 20:08:50 <nanotube> ah ic. guess that's gotten fairly large now... heh. never tried stuffing that much data into sqlite
2982 2011-03-08 20:08:59 <luke-jr> slush: all it means is that at some point, we might have to make some compromises
2983 2011-03-08 20:09:20 <slush> luke-jr yes, at some time
2984 2011-03-08 20:09:25 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, the real problem isn't the size, but rather the fact that im updating one block at a time
2985 2011-03-08 20:09:43 <nanotube> mm
2986 2011-03-08 20:09:51 <phantomcircuit> all those commits kill it
2987 2011-03-08 20:10:02 <slush> there are people liking websockets, people liking protocol buffers, raw binary, json....
2988 2011-03-08 20:10:25 <phantomcircuit> i guess i should be using an ORM
2989 2011-03-08 20:10:32 <phantomcircuit> because really a block isn't a table
2990 2011-03-08 20:10:37 <luke-jr> slush: websockets are just a tunnel for ordinary TCP traffic
2991 2011-03-08 20:10:50 <luke-jr> so any TCP protocol can be sent over websockets
2992 2011-03-08 20:11:23 <luke-jr> protobuf and JSON are similar, and it's possible if no agreement can be reached, that they might simply be two alternatives to encoding the same protocol
2993 2011-03-08 20:11:24 <phantomcircuit> brb rewriting linux in javascript
2994 2011-03-08 20:11:35 <Kiba> wut?
2995 2011-03-08 20:12:16 <luke-jr> slush: what is your mining protocol plans?
2996 2011-03-08 20:12:55 <slush> luke-jr TCP with protocol buffer at the moment, but it is just because I had to pick one solution
2997 2011-03-08 20:13:09 <slush> luke-jr every protocol on top of TCP will be fine
2998 2011-03-08 20:13:36 <slush> finally I'll code also raw binary if it will be necessary, but I see it as ugly
2999 2011-03-08 20:13:39 <luke-jr> slush: I am looking into protobuf right now, and the biggest problem I see is no uint256 type ;)
3000 2011-03-08 20:14:05 <slush> so?
3001 2011-03-08 20:14:10 <luke-jr> shrug
3002 2011-03-08 20:14:19 <luke-jr> I guess most people don't care to treat hashes as ints anyhow
3003 2011-03-08 20:14:23 <slush> it is not necessary for the mining
3004 2011-03-08 20:14:41 <luke-jr> slush: do you have specs or .proto anywhere I can look at?
3005 2011-03-08 20:14:44 <EvanR-work> luke-jr: use haskell ;)
3006 2011-03-08 20:15:08 <slush> I have some draft but it may be changed
3007 2011-03-08 20:15:17 <lfm> can just use an array of unsigned bytes
3008 2011-03-08 20:15:32 <luke-jr> slush: I think it would be useful, to see how it might integrate into a larger wallet protocol
3009 2011-03-08 20:15:54 <slush> luke-jr I don't care. As I said, I san change it easily anytime
3010 2011-03-08 20:16:01 <slush> *can
3011 2011-03-08 20:16:07 drazak_ is now known as drazak
3012 2011-03-08 20:16:08 <EvanR-work> lfm: yep, you could rub two stones together to make fire ;)
3013 2011-03-08 20:16:21 <luke-jr> slush: but you probably know the requirements for pools best, so your input is valuable in any form :P
3014 2011-03-08 20:16:33 <slush> I don't like long discussion
3015 2011-03-08 20:16:37 <slush> I'll implement it somehow
3016 2011-03-08 20:16:44 <slush> If there will be better proposal, I'll change it
3017 2011-03-08 20:16:54 <lfm> EvanR-work: you only need a compare op for the uint256. that can be dome very simply as unsigned bytes
3018 2011-03-08 20:16:55 <slush> protocol payload is the easiest part on the solution
3019 2011-03-08 20:17:02 <luke-jr> slush: the problem is how do we know what is "better", when you're the expert? :p
3020 2011-03-08 20:17:10 <slush> I'm not an expert
3021 2011-03-08 20:17:14 <slush> I discuss it with m0mchil
3022 2011-03-08 20:17:16 <EvanR-work> lfm: ah i thought we were talking about very large numbers
3023 2011-03-08 20:17:34 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3024 2011-03-08 20:17:39 <EvanR-work> ah, we are
3025 2011-03-08 20:17:41 <EvanR-work> 2^256
3026 2011-03-08 20:17:49 <lfm> EvanR-work: ya, 32 chars
3027 2011-03-08 20:18:03 <EvanR-work> a single comparison wont do it...
3028 2011-03-08 20:18:03 mmarker has joined
3029 2011-03-08 20:18:09 <EvanR-work> unless you have support ;)
3030 2011-03-08 20:18:20 <lfm> EvanR-work: what else you want?
3031 2011-03-08 20:18:43 <luke-jr> slush: what are the main focusses of your mining protocol? easy to produce/parse, and event/update oriented? anything else?
3032 2011-03-08 20:18:45 <EvanR-work> nothing im just saying many of these things are usually not considered as primitive as they are
3033 2011-03-08 20:19:13 <lfm> just different ways of looking at the same bits
3034 2011-03-08 20:19:17 <slush> luke-jr I think it is enough
3035 2011-03-08 20:19:20 <jgarzik> luke-jr: one hopes "efficiency" is on that list
3036 2011-03-08 20:19:26 <EvanR-work> lfm: yes but one way is more natural than another
3037 2011-03-08 20:19:35 Necr0s_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3038 2011-03-08 20:19:36 <luke-jr> jgarzik: isn't that "easy to produce/parse"? or do you mean something else?
3039 2011-03-08 20:19:38 <slush> luke-jr it should be message oriented, not request/response in any form
3040 2011-03-08 20:19:44 <EvanR-work> everything is bits right, but we prefer not to write everything in asm
3041 2011-03-08 20:20:01 <EvanR-work> we like sets and sequences and lookup tables
3042 2011-03-08 20:20:02 <luke-jr> slush: well, messages could include responses to other messages still, no?
3043 2011-03-08 20:20:09 <EvanR-work> and idealized numbers
3044 2011-03-08 20:20:13 <slush> luke-jr yes, I mean this
3045 2011-03-08 20:20:23 <slush> luke-jr but not all messages need response
3046 2011-03-08 20:21:08 <luke-jr> slush: most probably need at least acknowledgement
3047 2011-03-08 20:21:24 <EvanR-work> we like functions rather than machine code for a turing machine
3048 2011-03-08 20:21:29 <luke-jr> maybe just not 'work' updates
3049 2011-03-08 20:21:59 <luke-jr> perhaps each message can optionally include a 'wantresponse' bool ☺
3050 2011-03-08 20:22:24 <luke-jr> if it's missing, no response is ever sent; if present, an ack is always included
3051 2011-03-08 20:22:38 gribble has joined
3052 2011-03-08 20:22:38 <lfm> EvanR-work: someone has to write those functions. sometimes you have to do it yourself when no one else has yet
3053 2011-03-08 20:22:57 <slush> luke-jr no, some messages simply don't need confirmation at all and other need it everytime
3054 2011-03-08 20:23:07 <slush> luke-jr so this "flexibility" is not necessary
3055 2011-03-08 20:23:52 <EvanR-work> lfm: yes but if the function is defined as assembly language rather than with other functions as is often done in C, its harder
3056 2011-03-08 20:24:22 ApertureScience has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3057 2011-03-08 20:25:22 ApertureScience has joined
3058 2011-03-08 20:25:27 <EvanR-work> often writing functions is just a matter of composing two existing functions
3059 2011-03-08 20:25:34 <luke-jr> interesting, even ECMAScript has a protobuf implementation
3060 2011-03-08 20:25:48 <luke-jr> it does really look perfect for this
3061 2011-03-08 20:27:37 Jeroenz0r has quit ()
3062 2011-03-08 20:27:42 <OneFixt> i want cake
3063 2011-03-08 20:27:45 <OneFixt> i was promised cake
3064 2011-03-08 20:28:21 <luke-jr> OneFixt: any input?
3065 2011-03-08 20:28:34 Jeroenz0r has joined
3066 2011-03-08 20:28:34 Jeroenz0r has quit (Changing host)
3067 2011-03-08 20:28:34 Jeroenz0r has joined
3068 2011-03-08 20:28:41 <OneFixt> i haven't been following the discussion, lemme see
3069 2011-03-08 20:28:43 <EvanR-work> input cake. output feces
3070 2011-03-08 20:28:44 <mmarker> Huh. Fixing bitcoin protocol? Can I get the merkle branch information?
3071 2011-03-08 20:29:03 <BlueMatt> mmarker: no they are just working on rpc replacement
3072 2011-03-08 20:29:31 <mmarker> Oh damn
3073 2011-03-08 20:29:32 <luke-jr> OneFixt: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
3074 2011-03-08 20:29:42 <mmarker> well, MAYBE we can get a merkle branch from RPC :D
3075 2011-03-08 20:30:04 <BlueMatt> mmarker: seems like a command which would go unused
3076 2011-03-08 20:31:29 <mizerydearia> are there any examples or abilities in which a user can send a transaction, 0 confirmations to appear and then the transaction somehow later is denied or not approved and never accumulates more than 0 confirmations?
3077 2011-03-08 20:32:01 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: yea, if there is a different tx that gets accepted to the chain which spends the money that would ahve been spent in the tx you see
3078 2011-03-08 20:32:11 <mmarker> BlueMatt: not even for the lightweight transaction checking protocol as outlined in the paper?
3079 2011-03-08 20:32:54 <lfm> mizerydearia: that should only happen for specially constructed fraudulant txn
3080 2011-03-08 20:33:05 Zib has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3081 2011-03-08 20:33:18 <BlueMatt> mmarker: no that might, though most of the people who are concerned with merkle branch and such want to connect to the network
3082 2011-03-08 20:33:26 <OneFixt> luke-jr: ah yes, we'll need to work on that stuff, though i don't have input at the moment
3083 2011-03-08 20:33:48 <luke-jr> OneFixt: it's been sitting around for weeks now :P
3084 2011-03-08 20:33:58 <BlueMatt> mmarker: just checking a tx if you are connecting to a rpc server which you trust, getting a merkle branch and such seems like overkill
3085 2011-03-08 20:34:06 <luke-jr> slush isn't the only one anxious :p
3086 2011-03-08 20:35:15 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: hey troll. you don't like binary. thoughts on protobuf?
3087 2011-03-08 20:35:29 <mizerydearia> lfm, BlueMatt: Well, my question stems from, whether I should allow deposits to witcoin with 0 confirmations and allow that user that submitted the transaction to 'overspend' below 0 balance an amount equal to the value of the transaction with 0 confirmations, in anticipation of the transaction eventually accumulating more confirmations.  My idea is that in doing so it will provide opportunity for witcoin to be exploited and lose lots o
3088 2011-03-08 20:35:29 <mizerydearia> f bitcoins.  However, it was suggested that I should consider implementing this idea.  Is this potentially exploitable?
3089 2011-03-08 20:35:36 <Diablo-D3> I evaluated protobuf and thrift for another project of mine
3090 2011-03-08 20:35:36 <slush> luke-jr he don't like protobuf too :)
3091 2011-03-08 20:35:42 <slush> luke-jr we discussed it yesterday ;)
3092 2011-03-08 20:35:51 <phantomcircuit> lol
3093 2011-03-08 20:35:57 <phantomcircuit> this sqlite stuff is so slow
3094 2011-03-08 20:36:04 <Diablo-D3> its not human readable thus difficult to work with in cross language systems
3095 2011-03-08 20:36:07 <phantomcircuit> im only up to march 2009
3096 2011-03-08 20:36:07 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: you've siad that like 20 times
3097 2011-03-08 20:36:15 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, inorite
3098 2011-03-08 20:36:25 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you're probably using sqlite wrong
3099 2011-03-08 20:36:26 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: depends on how you're reading it
3100 2011-03-08 20:36:33 <Diablo-D3> try using transactions next time, dumbass
3101 2011-03-08 20:36:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yeah i am actually, far too many commits
3102 2011-03-08 20:36:53 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you're batching everything into a single commit?
3103 2011-03-08 20:36:59 <phantomcircuit> no im not
3104 2011-03-08 20:37:04 <Kiba> mizerydearia: I still don't know where all my profit come from in witcoin
3105 2011-03-08 20:37:05 <phantomcircuit> every column is a commit
3106 2011-03-08 20:37:06 <Diablo-D3> no wonder your shits slow
3107 2011-03-08 20:37:06 <phantomcircuit> lolol
3108 2011-03-08 20:37:15 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: protobuf supports Java, C++, ECMAScript, at least
3109 2011-03-08 20:37:20 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: yes it is theoretically exploitable, however it isn't worth someones time to exploit it for small values
3110 2011-03-08 20:37:21 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: I imagine Wireshark can dissect it
3111 2011-03-08 20:37:23 <luke-jr> what's the problem?
3112 2011-03-08 20:37:33 <slush> luke-jr there is also support for Java and Python
3113 2011-03-08 20:37:39 <jgarzik> and C
3114 2011-03-08 20:37:41 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: though it is good to require a couple confirms before you accept large txes
3115 2011-03-08 20:37:50 <luke-jr> slush: I listed Java :P
3116 2011-03-08 20:37:54 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes, and guess what: on any fast marshalling impl, you still have to pay for it.
3117 2011-03-08 20:37:54 <jgarzik> but protobufs would be Yet Another Dependency for bitcoin
3118 2011-03-08 20:37:56 <mmarker> BlueMatt: Trying to set up a system where you don't necessarily have to trust the RPC server
3119 2011-03-08 20:37:57 <slush> luke-jr I see, sorry :)
3120 2011-03-08 20:38:05 <jgarzik> and bitcoin is already dependency hell
3121 2011-03-08 20:38:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: only because it doesn't depend correctly
3122 2011-03-08 20:38:24 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt matter if you marshal into json, xml, protobuf, or thrift
3123 2011-03-08 20:38:27 <luke-jr> jgarzik: better to add a dependency, than reinvent the wheel?
3124 2011-03-08 20:38:36 <Diablo-D3> you're going to be paying, roughly, in the same magnitude of cost
3125 2011-03-08 20:38:40 <Diablo-D3> and the cost is extremely low.
3126 2011-03-08 20:38:55 <jgarzik> it's a balance of costs, and the cost of adding protobufs is high compared to the proposed Binary Data Protocol
3127 2011-03-08 20:39:09 <luke-jr> jgarzik: what proposed BDP?
3128 2011-03-08 20:39:14 <jgarzik> luke-jr: read the forums
3129 2011-03-08 20:39:20 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: yes, and the protocol is higher than just doing http json rest.
3130 2011-03-08 20:39:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr: there's already an example implementation
3131 2011-03-08 20:39:24 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I don't see it in the thread.
3132 2011-03-08 20:39:44 <BlueMatt> mmarker: better off implementing your own protocol then, or you will have to add a bunch of rpc commands anyway.  Plus this whole merkle branch request is only important when blocks start filling to their max size, and we need to download just a tiny fraction of one block
3133 2011-03-08 20:39:48 <Diablo-D3> Im not particularly interested in using any binary protocol.
3134 2011-03-08 20:40:12 <Diablo-D3> reinventing a wheel thats already perfectly round has never been a good idea.
3135 2011-03-08 20:40:22 <mmarker> BlueMatt: point taken
3136 2011-03-08 20:41:02 <Diablo-D3> and btw, most of slush's bitching is, ultimately, because his software is too slow
3137 2011-03-08 20:41:07 <Diablo-D3> not because http and json is bad.
3138 2011-03-08 20:41:18 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: polling is bad
3139 2011-03-08 20:41:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes
3140 2011-03-08 20:41:36 <Diablo-D3> but I already gave an approximate solution
3141 2011-03-08 20:41:39 <Diablo-D3> the correct one
3142 2011-03-08 20:41:39 <luke-jr> HTTP is stupid for wrapping up TCP sockets
3143 2011-03-08 20:41:52 <Diablo-D3> and the LORDS OF THE INTERNET have already solved the issue.
3144 2011-03-08 20:42:15 <Diablo-D3> and Im going to take an existing solution that has an RFC and impls in every interesting language before I go make some shit up
3145 2011-03-08 20:42:26 <luke-jr> protobuf?
3146 2011-03-08 20:42:45 <luke-jr> oh right, no RFCs there
3147 2011-03-08 20:42:50 <luke-jr> obviously you must mean TCP
3148 2011-03-08 20:42:57 <Diablo-D3> nope, swapping out http for websockets, and then switching to rest instead of json-rpc
3149 2011-03-08 20:43:10 <luke-jr> that's stupid
3150 2011-03-08 20:43:19 <luke-jr> lots of overhead to just wrap a TCP socket
3151 2011-03-08 20:43:21 <luke-jr> when TCP works fine
3152 2011-03-08 20:43:25 <Diablo-D3> "wrap"
3153 2011-03-08 20:43:29 <Diablo-D3> I love how you keep using that word wrong.
3154 2011-03-08 20:43:59 <Diablo-D3> to implement jgarzik's idea properly, you end up impl a lot of things http already provides
3155 2011-03-08 20:46:16 <farzong> bitcoin is awesome
3156 2011-03-08 20:46:25 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: what idea is that?
3157 2011-03-08 20:46:31 <jgarzik> luke-jr: what thread?  did you google for "bitcoin binary data protocol" ?
3158 2011-03-08 20:46:31 <luke-jr> he says forums, but there's nothing on the forum
3159 2011-03-08 20:46:40 <jgarzik> ie. the string I stated
3160 2011-03-08 20:46:55 povik has left ()
3161 2011-03-08 20:47:02 <luke-jr> no, I skimmed the forum topics
3162 2011-03-08 20:47:22 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3493.0
3163 2011-03-08 20:49:48 <jgarzik> you don't see TCP(protobuf_wrapper(protobuf(message(getwork)))) you just need TCP(64 bits) for common cases like getwork.  much easier to debug w/ wireshark.
3164 2011-03-08 20:50:37 <jgarzik> blocks and work may be broadcast directly in its binary (ie. native) form, so that bitcoin need not perform extra encoding, and miner clients need not perform extra decoding
3165 2011-03-08 20:50:39 <lfm> depends where you put the breakpoint and where you examine the data
3166 2011-03-08 20:51:39 <jgarzik> after writing two pool servers, one sees the inefficiency of binary->text->text->binary schemes show up in CPU profiles, during stress tests.
3167 2011-03-08 20:52:29 <jgarzik> conclusion:  text encoding (JSON) for binary data is boneheaded.
3168 2011-03-08 20:53:07 <luke-jr> jgarzik: a straight-protobuf "new work" event would be like 3-5 bytes on top of that 64
3169 2011-03-08 20:53:08 <Diablo-D3> yes, but otoh, we have so very little data, there isnt an issue.
3170 2011-03-08 20:53:09 <lfm> 3/4 of unix is boneheaded then
3171 2011-03-08 20:53:21 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3172 2011-03-08 20:53:21 <jgarzik> or with protobufs, converting a CBlock to a protobuf message, field-for-field, makes no sense either
3173 2011-03-08 20:53:56 MartianW has joined
3174 2011-03-08 20:53:57 <luke-jr> jgarzik: so you would suggest instead extending the current p2p protocol, for wallet use?
3175 2011-03-08 20:54:00 <slush> jgarzik: who needs to convert CBlock to protobuf?
3176 2011-03-08 20:54:09 <farzong> my gmail account is out of space again.. i realized tho i can delete thousands of spam by searching for the word ipad and deleting them all
3177 2011-03-08 20:54:14 <lfm> especiall hex encoding should be super fast
3178 2011-03-08 20:54:16 <jgarzik> slush: that was one suggestion I heard
3179 2011-03-08 20:55:06 <jgarzik> hex encoding is fast... and completely pointless.  we are checksumming binary data.  text is not needed because this isn't the 1970's, and double-sha256 hashing gives excellent integrity :)
3180 2011-03-08 20:55:25 <Diablo-D3> farzong: I can delete spam by pressing the delete spam button
3181 2011-03-08 20:55:36 <farzong> aye.. spam not identified as spam tho
3182 2011-03-08 20:55:41 <farzong> cruft in my inbox
3183 2011-03-08 20:55:46 <Diablo-D3> I get very little of that
3184 2011-03-08 20:55:50 <Diablo-D3> and I have a public email address
3185 2011-03-08 20:56:16 <lfm> jgarzik: binary-text coding was a lot more overhaed in the '70s than it is now proportionally
3186 2011-03-08 20:57:13 <BlueMatt> why make it more complicated than it has to be, reencoding binary data into text when it will make it harder to debug in wireshark, etc is pointless
3187 2011-03-08 20:57:31 <jgarzik> pretty much
3188 2011-03-08 20:58:06 <slush> because you don't need wireshark at all when you use high level protocols
3189 2011-03-08 20:58:28 <slush> like protobuf
3190 2011-03-08 20:58:28 <Diablo-D3> yeah what slush said
3191 2011-03-08 20:58:29 <lfm> the point is portability and openness. binary is worse than text
3192 2011-03-08 20:58:36 <Diablo-D3> Ive never used wireshark on an http app. ever.
3193 2011-03-08 20:58:52 <slush> Diablo-D3: well, I used. When I made my own http implementation ;)
3194 2011-03-08 20:58:56 <jgarzik> if everyone directly deals with CBlock headers, there is less complexity, and fewer points of failure.
3195 2011-03-08 20:59:10 <jgarzik> less encoding, byteswapping, unencoding, ...
3196 2011-03-08 20:59:28 <slush> jgarzik: in fact, you don't need transmit CBlock for mining. Just few parts
3197 2011-03-08 20:59:33 <slush> those are 32bit numbers
3198 2011-03-08 20:59:40 <lfm> yes, if everybody stays with intel x86 cpus then complexity is less
3199 2011-03-08 20:59:48 <BlueMatt> Are we doing more than just mining protocol right now though?
3200 2011-03-08 20:59:51 <jgarzik> slush: it's up to the miners to select
3201 2011-03-08 20:59:53 <Diablo-D3> slush: yeah see, Im not stupid enough to try it
3202 2011-03-08 21:00:00 <slush> jgarzik: merkle, time, nonce, midstate, target
3203 2011-03-08 21:00:26 <slush> Diablo-D3: It was 12 years back, I learned how it works :)
3204 2011-03-08 21:00:30 Spenvo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3205 2011-03-08 21:00:36 <jgarzik> slush: I agree with you that is _one_ possibility.  But do not build code assuming that is the requirement on mining clients using your protocol.
3206 2011-03-08 21:00:53 <phantomcircuit> lol
3207 2011-03-08 21:00:57 <Diablo-D3> slush: I read RFCs like normal people
3208 2011-03-08 21:01:07 <phantomcircuit> I HAVE DEVISED THE LEAST EFFICIENT MEANS OF CONNECTING BLOCKS INTO THE TREE
3209 2011-03-08 21:01:08 <phantomcircuit> YAY ME
3210 2011-03-08 21:01:18 afed_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3211 2011-03-08 21:01:18 <BlueMatt> We need to agree on exactly what we want: just a protocol for miners (dont need any more info than we need) or something broader (luke-jr's idea)
3212 2011-03-08 21:01:36 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726])
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3214 2011-03-08 21:01:52 <jgarzik> slush: the proposed binary data protocol supports _existing_ miner client workflows such as simply looking at getwork's 'data' and nothing else.  the login message permits easy masking of specific fields the miner client wants to see in work message.
3215 2011-03-08 21:02:24 <jgarzik> thus, the work message may send 128 bytes 'data', or just  merkle, time, nonce, midstate, target, etc.
3216 2011-03-08 21:02:31 <slush> jgarzik: the block header is created from the same data as I sent
3217 2011-03-08 21:02:37 <jgarzik> slush: yes
3218 2011-03-08 21:02:54 <slush> jgarzik: miners don't need any change, they just get those parts separated, not in one binary blob
3219 2011-03-08 21:03:07 <lfm> midstate is a waste
3220 2011-03-08 21:03:11 <jgarzik> slush: you are thinking about what data is needed.  I am thinking about what modifications would be required to each mining client.
3221 2011-03-08 21:03:30 <slush> jgarzik: I think my way is better :)
3222 2011-03-08 21:03:39 <slush> jgarzik: as we don't need backward compatibility
3223 2011-03-08 21:03:58 <jgarzik> slush: I'm saying the BDP is a __superset__ of what you are describing.  You understand this, yes?
3224 2011-03-08 21:04:12 <slush> currently it is very easy to change miners to whatever, because every protocol have to send still the same data. Only the form changed
3225 2011-03-08 21:04:23 <slush> what is BDP?
3226 2011-03-08 21:04:32 <slush> oh, see
3227 2011-03-08 21:04:58 <slush> I agree, but I think it is unnecessary complicated
3228 2011-03-08 21:05:01 TD has joined
3229 2011-03-08 21:05:01 <jgarzik> slush: Binary Data Protocol described at http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3493.0 and implemented in FOSS server
3230 2011-03-08 21:05:38 <jgarzik> slush: it is (a) almost 100% network efficient for mining, and (b) supports other needs like monitorblocks
3231 2011-03-08 21:05:41 <slush> but we already did this conversation
3232 2011-03-08 21:05:46 <slush> I don't think there is anything new
3233 2011-03-08 21:06:12 <jgarzik> this is what bitcoin needs.  if you want to add JSON rpc's, that is easy to do and supported in the protocol already.
3234 2011-03-08 21:06:12 <slush> jgarzik: your BDP, as you said, don't solve mining payload
3235 2011-03-08 21:06:23 <slush> then we're discussing different parts
3236 2011-03-08 21:06:39 <jgarzik> slush: LOGIN message is used to specify mining payload
3237 2011-03-08 21:06:52 <slush> I think you solve with custom binary <something> what can be solved by protobuf more easily for all people
3238 2011-03-08 21:07:00 <jgarzik> slush: LOGIN message may specify "slush preferred payload"
3239 2011-03-08 21:07:09 <jgarzik> but also support others' desired mining payloads
3240 2011-03-08 21:07:18 <jgarzik> not locked into one choice (slush's)
3241 2011-03-08 21:07:28 <slush> that isn't anything what cannot be handled with protobuf
3242 2011-03-08 21:07:43 <jgarzik> ditto binary compressed JSON :)
3243 2011-03-08 21:07:53 <slush> stop this, we never find an agreement with this :)
3244 2011-03-08 21:07:57 <slush> in this
3245 2011-03-08 21:08:08 <jgarzik> JSON is already used in bitcoin community, unlike protobufs
3246 2011-03-08 21:08:22 <agorist> anyone of you guys know how the 21mil mark has been set?
3247 2011-03-08 21:08:24 <slush> who proposed binary json? me? oh, ok :)
3248 2011-03-08 21:08:47 afed has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3249 2011-03-08 21:08:47 <slush> I'll be fine with anything than plain binary
3250 2011-03-08 21:08:57 <slush> and I'll implement anything if it will be adopted by bitcoin
3251 2011-03-08 21:09:00 <slush> that's whole my point
3252 2011-03-08 21:09:05 <cosurgi> agorist: Satoshi likes that number?
3253 2011-03-08 21:09:17 <jgarzik> slush: my protocol is binary JSON...  obvious logical observation of:  If (binary JSON is supported) { it is trivial to support simple, direct binary messages of length N }
3254 2011-03-08 21:09:25 <Diablo-D3> agorist: approximate number of hashes that fit satoshi's projected bitcoin growth and the hash finding rules.
3255 2011-03-08 21:09:30 <agorist> cosurgi, haha so it's totally arbitrary ?
3256 2011-03-08 21:09:38 <Diablo-D3> agorist: ie, there are only so many hashes that start with n number of bits that are 0
3257 2011-03-08 21:09:38 <jgarzik> which happens to be a CBlock header or { merkle, time, nonce, midstate, target }
3258 2011-03-08 21:09:39 <lfm> agorist: its an arbitrary number, based on the having of rewards every 4 years
3259 2011-03-08 21:09:39 <agorist> Diablo: thanks that makes more sense :)_
3260 2011-03-08 21:09:51 <cosurgi> agorist: no.. actually Diablo is right.
3261 2011-03-08 21:09:51 <slush> jgarzik: no, your proposal is "some binary wrap about anything inside"
3262 2011-03-08 21:10:06 <cosurgi> agorist: didn't think about that before.
3263 2011-03-08 21:10:07 sabalaba has joined
3264 2011-03-08 21:10:09 <Diablo-D3> agorist: I think his math is wrong though, we might hit the end sooner than satoshi planned
3265 2011-03-08 21:10:26 <lfm> Diablo-D3: hehe I think you might be mistaken (if you're serious)
3266 2011-03-08 21:10:28 <Diablo-D3> and I dont mean the insane growth of the network
3267 2011-03-08 21:10:30 <jgarzik> slush: guess what?  straight binary JSON also requires  "some binary wrap about anything inside"  and also, protobufs requires  "some binary wrap about anything inside"
3268 2011-03-08 21:10:38 <luke-jr> is the Bitcoin p2p protocol tied to the format used to hash blocks/tx?
3269 2011-03-08 21:10:39 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3270 2011-03-08 21:10:45 <slush> jgarzik: you mean message length?
3271 2011-03-08 21:10:46 <agorist> Diablo: I have the same feeling
3272 2011-03-08 21:10:55 <Diablo-D3> either way, 21m is a good estimate
3273 2011-03-08 21:10:58 <Diablo-D3> its in the right ballpark
3274 2011-03-08 21:11:05 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sure you can't just send protobufs over the TCP socket as-is?
3275 2011-03-08 21:11:21 <Diablo-D3> slush, jgarzik: btw you CAN send binary in json
3276 2011-03-08 21:11:26 <Diablo-D3> its just not recommended
3277 2011-03-08 21:11:29 <jgarzik> slush: message length and usually some sort of magic number / protocol identifier
3278 2011-03-08 21:11:35 <slush> jgarzik: why?
3279 2011-03-08 21:11:39 <slush> message len is enough
3280 2011-03-08 21:11:46 <jgarzik> luke-jr: protobufs explicitly just defines a message, and it's up to you to transmit the message
3281 2011-03-08 21:11:46 <agorist> Diablo: how can we be assured that the 21mil will not be changed to a higher number in the future? ;p
3282 2011-03-08 21:11:48 <slush> anything else can be in the (protobuf) payload
3283 2011-03-08 21:11:54 larsig has joined
3284 2011-03-08 21:11:57 <Diablo-D3> agorist: because all clients will have to be changed
3285 2011-03-08 21:12:04 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sure, but what stops you from just writing it to a TCP socket?
3286 2011-03-08 21:12:07 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: I disagree with "so many hashes that start with n number of bits that are 0". I think it is rather - if you divide 30 years into 10 minute peroids you get that many blocks, if you take first half and value it 50 BTC, then half of the rest and value it 25 BTC, then half of the rest and value it... you get to 21 million BTC.
3287 2011-03-08 21:12:13 <jgarzik> slush: standard method in network protocols of making sure you remain in sync in the stream.  it's optional.
3288 2011-03-08 21:12:27 <Diablo-D3> agorist: the clients themselves will refuse to accept new blocks that gen coins after we reach a certain number
3289 2011-03-08 21:12:43 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: yes, Im aware of that
3290 2011-03-08 21:12:50 <agorist> so the 21mil is hardcoded in the client, is that verified?
3291 2011-03-08 21:12:52 <slush> jgarzik: ok, but I think "login message" is outside this scope
3292 2011-03-08 21:13:18 <Diablo-D3> agorist: ask gavinandresen
3293 2011-03-08 21:13:24 <luke-jr> LOL
3294 2011-03-08 21:13:27 <jgarzik> luke-jr: nothing, but it remains difficult to implement the other side without a simple message length and maybe message boundaries.  the protobufs docs recommend such...
3295 2011-03-08 21:13:50 <Diablo-D3> btw, if the coin miner stops at 0.01 gens, thats approximately 273000 blocks
3296 2011-03-08 21:13:55 <Diablo-D3> er 2370000
3297 2011-03-08 21:14:25 <phantomcircuit> ah there we go
3298 2011-03-08 21:14:31 <phantomcircuit> a significant speed improvement
3299 2011-03-08 21:14:32 molecular has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3300 2011-03-08 21:14:44 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: switched to gigantic commits?
3301 2011-03-08 21:14:49 <phantomcircuit> yup
3302 2011-03-08 21:14:54 <jgarzik> slush: the LOGIN message is JSON, giving the mining client the flexibility to select specifically which parts of the 'getwork' data they want.  or, select 'push' mining (unsolicited 'work' messages).  or, select 'monitorblocks' messages (unrelated to mining).
3303 2011-03-08 21:14:55 <lfm> miners go all the way to microcents
3304 2011-03-08 21:14:57 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: we are generating too fast, because the algorithm for predicting next difficulty is very, very bad.
3305 2011-03-08 21:14:58 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: it helps if you know how to use SQL before using it ;)
3306 2011-03-08 21:15:02 <phantomcircuit> had to implement an internal cache to do so though
3307 2011-03-08 21:15:14 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: thats fail.
3308 2011-03-08 21:15:18 molecular has joined
3309 2011-03-08 21:15:31 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, well i knew why it was slow, im just lazy and hoped i could get away with not batching operatings as much
3310 2011-03-08 21:15:32 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: the miner should ask the server for an accepted list of features
3311 2011-03-08 21:15:35 <phantomcircuit> apparently i cant though
3312 2011-03-08 21:15:41 <agorist> Diablo, is there any estimate of how many are actual users of bitcoins?
3313 2011-03-08 21:15:44 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: the miner gets an error back, bitcoin is too old to support that
3314 2011-03-08 21:15:49 <phantomcircuit> i just need an ssd xD
3315 2011-03-08 21:15:55 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: otherwise, the miner then uses this list for negotiation purposes
3316 2011-03-08 21:16:02 <genjix> would be nice to have a better api
3317 2011-03-08 21:16:25 <genjix> one that supports persistance and objects
3318 2011-03-08 21:16:28 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: sql is not for the lazy or the weak. sql does not coddle you.
3319 2011-03-08 21:16:37 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lol
3320 2011-03-08 21:16:39 <mmarker> cosurgi: the prediction looks like a really really dumb feedback controller that's been damped
3321 2011-03-08 21:16:52 <Diablo-D3> mmarker: thats exactly what it is.
3322 2011-03-08 21:17:12 <cosurgi> mmarker: maybe later I'll give it a try, just for kicks, and write a sensible one. It has no chance of getting into official client, because everyone would have to update.
3323 2011-03-08 21:17:18 <mmarker> Diablo-D3: which works perfectly, but if you get large spikes, you can get a lag.
3324 2011-03-08 21:17:32 <mmarker> Process Control 101
3325 2011-03-08 21:17:38 <Diablo-D3> yeah but it doesnt have to work perfectly
3326 2011-03-08 21:17:40 <cosurgi> but we would see what to really expect.
3327 2011-03-08 21:17:42 <Diablo-D3> remember, the time scale is 10 years
3328 2011-03-08 21:17:50 <farzong> hmm is there a site i can use to lookup an account balance
3329 2011-03-08 21:17:52 <cosurgi> and we are about 8 months ahead now.
3330 2011-03-08 21:18:03 <mmarker> Diablo-D3: yea. worse is if you had the difficulty overshoot, then you get some real hell
3331 2011-03-08 21:18:04 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: well we gotta hit the end eventually.
3332 2011-03-08 21:18:16 <Diablo-D3> mmarker: no, I'd love to see a difficulty overshoot
3333 2011-03-08 21:18:19 <luke-jr> jgarzik: you know, your summary of the protobuf discussion doesn't sound right to me… looks more like the consensus was "let's change it!"
3334 2011-03-08 21:18:36 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3335 2011-03-08 21:18:46 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I wasn't summarizing any protobufs discussion
3336 2011-03-08 21:18:47 <mmarker> Diablo-D3: depends, since depending on how the system responds, you can get an oscilating response
3337 2011-03-08 21:18:56 <jgarzik> luke-jr: my opinions are my own
3338 2011-03-08 21:19:01 * mmarker needs to write the laplace transform for the system
3339 2011-03-08 21:19:11 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, actually my current biggest problem is that im requesting blocks with getblocks from multiple peers simultaneously, which means im getting a lot of duplicates
3340 2011-03-08 21:19:12 <luke-jr> jgarzik: “Protocol buffers for the P2P networking protocol have already been discussed.  Not really realistic now, but "it would have been nice."”
3341 2011-03-08 21:19:18 <Diablo-D3> mmarker: yes, but this is why you use a double dampener like I did in my kernel lenght
3342 2011-03-08 21:19:21 MartianW has joined
3343 2011-03-08 21:19:34 <Diablo-D3> mmarker: if it spikes it clamps down extra hard.
3344 2011-03-08 21:19:44 <mmarker> Ugh
3345 2011-03-08 21:19:48 <Diablo-D3> sorta like your mom's wonderful lips on my dick
3346 2011-03-08 21:19:54 <mmarker> Does anyone ever understand process control
3347 2011-03-08 21:20:10 <mmarker> god damn, you people sur better stay the hell away from my reactors.
3348 2011-03-08 21:20:16 <jgarzik> luke-jr: that was paraphrasing satoshi, who has stated something along the lines of (paraphrasing from memory): "if I had known about protobufs, maybe I would have used them"
3349 2011-03-08 21:20:19 <ArtForz> no, but sacrificing a chicken usually helps
3350 2011-03-08 21:20:32 <jgarzik> luke-jr: but backwards compat prevented change etc.
3351 2011-03-08 21:20:35 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: this is, sadly, better than the shit that wallstreet uses.
3352 2011-03-08 21:20:37 <cosurgi> mmarker: I think rather about using higher derivatives of previous measurement points.
3353 2011-03-08 21:20:38 <Diablo-D3> er
3354 2011-03-08 21:20:38 <luke-jr> jgarzik: looked more like he wanted to avoid doing a security audit of it :P
3355 2011-03-08 21:20:39 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3356 2011-03-08 21:20:43 <farzong> how can i lookup someones balance.. is it possible without doing a transaction?
3357 2011-03-08 21:20:50 <Diablo-D3> mmarker: this is, sadly, better than the shit that wallstreet uses.
3358 2011-03-08 21:21:02 <jgarzik> luke-jr: using protobufs wouldn't have saved us from script engine security problems
3359 2011-03-08 21:21:03 <ArtForz> and yes, I've optimized a process control loop or two
3360 2011-03-08 21:21:14 <jgarzik> luke-jr: nor network buffer DoS
3361 2011-03-08 21:21:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I don't see how any of this is related to the scripts.
3362 2011-03-08 21:21:16 <phantomcircuit> bah the solution to multiple getblocks requests isn't one i actually am interested in implementing
3363 2011-03-08 21:21:16 <Diablo-D3> [04:10:26] <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, actually my current biggest problem is that im requesting blocks with getblocks from multiple peers simultaneously, which means im getting a lot of duplicates
3364 2011-03-08 21:21:36 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: you getblocks from one, you getdata from multiple
3365 2011-03-08 21:21:50 <jgarzik> luke-jr: you were talking about security audits, and script engine security problems are an example of what one might find during such an audit
3366 2011-03-08 21:21:53 <mmarker> Diablo-D3: Sad thing is, this type of control, where you have a measured input and a desired output, the solution is *well* understood and proven :\
3367 2011-03-08 21:21:58 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, getblocks returns the data :P
3368 2011-03-08 21:22:06 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: and you want to getblocks from multiple anyhow just to get a prospective look at the global view of the chain
3369 2011-03-08 21:22:20 <ArtForz> mmarker: actually it isn't
3370 2011-03-08 21:22:20 afed has joined
3371 2011-03-08 21:22:25 <Diablo-D3> mmarker: no it isnt
3372 2011-03-08 21:22:35 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, uh i dnt think you know what getblocks does
3373 2011-03-08 21:22:36 <phantomcircuit> xD
3374 2011-03-08 21:22:45 <Diablo-D3> people get phds in _just_ this shit, and still fail it from time to time
3375 2011-03-08 21:22:54 <mmarker> ArtForz: Where you run into problems are when you have pertubations. Handling error is the tricky part
3376 2011-03-08 21:22:57 <farzong> protobuf is pretty cool
3377 2011-03-08 21:22:58 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: I thought it got a list of all blocks, but not the contents?
3378 2011-03-08 21:22:59 <cosurgi> mmarker: for me it's just a linear extrapolation. It will be better if you do even a stupid spline extrapolation. But you are not limited to first derivatives, you can take second and third. Althought with too many derivatives the response gets very high oscillations.
3379 2011-03-08 21:23:03 <mmarker> Diablo-D3: and I've known some of them. :D
3380 2011-03-08 21:23:10 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, no that's getheaders
3381 2011-03-08 21:23:14 <Diablo-D3> farzong: its a generic object serializer
3382 2011-03-08 21:23:17 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: ahh.
3383 2011-03-08 21:23:19 <mmarker> ArtForz: and strictly non-linear systems.
3384 2011-03-08 21:23:31 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, getblocks returns the blocks+txs from one block to another
3385 2011-03-08 21:23:33 <Diablo-D3> farzong: its like every other in the universe. its not even unique, compare to apache thrift.
3386 2011-03-08 21:23:42 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, so you can bridge a gap in your chain
3387 2011-03-08 21:23:45 <mmarker> But bitcoin generation is pretty simplistic. We're not talking trying to control a B-Z reaction here.
3388 2011-03-08 21:24:01 <farzong> Diablo-D3: yeah there are many similar things..
3389 2011-03-08 21:24:12 <Diablo-D3> the only reason people keep prattling on about google protobuf is because google wrote it
3390 2011-03-08 21:24:23 <ArtForz> mmarker: how do you want to deal with noise?
3391 2011-03-08 21:24:34 <phantomcircuit> which protocol are people talking about rewritting
3392 2011-03-08 21:24:42 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: json-rpc
3393 2011-03-08 21:24:45 <cosurgi> goodnight.
3394 2011-03-08 21:24:45 <phantomcircuit> oh
3395 2011-03-08 21:24:47 <farzong> its a pretty good library, i wasnt in on the other conversation, so im not saying it should be used for something...
3396 2011-03-08 21:24:49 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: people keep giving insane bullshit ideas
3397 2011-03-08 21:24:49 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: RPC
3398 2011-03-08 21:25:08 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: mining subset thereof
3399 2011-03-08 21:25:20 <mmarker> Artforz: The classic method we use in process control is, of course, suck it up and PID, then tune the system.
3400 2011-03-08 21:25:50 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: JSON-RPC, all of it
3401 2011-03-08 21:26:05 <phantomcircuit> just make the json-rpc server multithreaded and turn it into a poor mans push
3402 2011-03-08 21:26:06 <phantomcircuit> magic
3403 2011-03-08 21:26:18 <ArtForz> PID actually would probably be a bad idea here
3404 2011-03-08 21:26:20 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: JSON-RPC is over HTTP, which is inherently pull
3405 2011-03-08 21:26:21 <phantomcircuit> although that would break any miners that poll
3406 2011-03-08 21:26:47 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: dude
3407 2011-03-08 21:26:50 <phantomcircuit> is the goal here to maintain backwards compatibility with existing miners?
3408 2011-03-08 21:26:51 <Diablo-D3> json. over. websockets.
3409 2011-03-08 21:27:00 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: websockets are just a lame wrapper for TCP
3410 2011-03-08 21:27:02 <mmarker> ArtForz: It probably end up being mostly PI. the D part would be tricky.
3411 2011-03-08 21:27:04 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: no, the goal here is to not fuck it up
3412 2011-03-08 21:27:05 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, also http isn't inherently pull, lots of ajax shit is push over http
3413 2011-03-08 21:27:10 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: you said that about http too!
3414 2011-03-08 21:27:12 <Diablo-D3> get a clue!
3415 2011-03-08 21:27:13 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: they emulate push with polling
3416 2011-03-08 21:27:18 <Diablo-D3> no they dont!
3417 2011-03-08 21:27:20 <ArtForz> yea
3418 2011-03-08 21:27:20 <Diablo-D3> you noob
3419 2011-03-08 21:27:33 <ArtForz> and to get rid of enough of the shot noise you'd have to tune *very* dampened
3420 2011-03-08 21:27:35 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: go troll elsewhere
3421 2011-03-08 21:27:49 <slush> Diablo-D3: json over websocket is probably the worse solution from the side of effectivity ;)
3422 2011-03-08 21:28:01 <slush> Diablo-D3: better than polling, but not for much
3423 2011-03-08 21:28:03 <luke-jr> there is NO need for a websocket-based protocol
3424 2011-03-08 21:28:05 <Diablo-D3> slush: what, too afraid of server event push without polling?
3425 2011-03-08 21:28:10 <jgarzik> luke-jr: agreed
3426 2011-03-08 21:28:12 <luke-jr> websockets exist to tunnel TCP traffic over HTTP for stupid webapps
3427 2011-03-08 21:28:23 <Diablo-D3> "to tunnel TCP over HTTP"
3428 2011-03-08 21:28:23 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, uh ajax push doesnt need to have any polling
3429 2011-03-08 21:28:25 <Diablo-D3> lolololol
3430 2011-03-08 21:28:25 <luke-jr> any TCP protocol we come up with can inherently be tunnelled that way
3431 2011-03-08 21:28:27 <Diablo-D3> wow
3432 2011-03-08 21:28:28 <jgarzik> too much pointless overhead
3433 2011-03-08 21:28:30 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, that's kind of the point
3434 2011-03-08 21:28:44 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3435 2011-03-08 21:28:45 <Diablo-D3> websockets _is_ http
3436 2011-03-08 21:28:49 <mizerydearia> Would anyone like to reply with their thoughts (bitcoin-related) to slashdot article @ http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2027864&cid=35423456 ?
3437 2011-03-08 21:28:50 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt tunnel anything over http
3438 2011-03-08 21:28:56 <Diablo-D3> you might as well call it http 1.2
3439 2011-03-08 21:29:16 <mizerydearia> specifically the topic is for-profit wiki
3440 2011-03-08 21:29:23 <ArtForz> but yeah, imo a I part would've been a good idea
3441 2011-03-08 21:29:25 <mizerydearia> similar to witcoin
3442 2011-03-08 21:29:52 <mizerydearia> e.g. it would be awesome to establish a competitor to wikipedia and establish it in a way that contributors pay but also profit from their contributions
3443 2011-03-08 21:29:58 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: when did we start letting noobs code?
3444 2011-03-08 21:30:16 <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, I think when we forced them to learn logo?
3445 2011-03-08 21:30:20 <jgarzik> how many for-profit wiki companies have died in the last 10 years?
3446 2011-03-08 21:30:29 <mizerydearia> jgarzik, Were there any?
3447 2011-03-08 21:30:37 <Diablo-D3> I can think of at least 1
3448 2011-03-08 21:30:43 <mizerydearia> hmm, which?
3449 2011-03-08 21:30:46 <Diablo-D3> and wikia is sort of keeling over (not enough ad revanue)
3450 2011-03-08 21:30:54 <Diablo-D3> mizerydearia: trying to think of the name
3451 2011-03-08 21:30:55 <mizerydearia> How about using witcoin-style model?
3452 2011-03-08 21:31:00 <mizerydearia> e.g. no ads
3453 2011-03-08 21:31:04 Sedo has quit ()
3454 2011-03-08 21:31:07 <Diablo-D3> witcoin style model would be good enough to stop spambots.
3455 2011-03-08 21:31:13 <mizerydearia> yeah
3456 2011-03-08 21:31:20 <jgarzik> mizerydearia: google for "wiki profits" :)
3457 2011-03-08 21:31:26 <Diablo-D3> have some absurdly low requirement
3458 2011-03-08 21:31:30 <Diablo-D3> like 100 edits per 0.01
3459 2011-03-08 21:31:41 <mizerydearia> jgarzik, well, while there may be some that have existed, I do not believe they established the same model I have established with witcoin
3460 2011-03-08 21:31:44 <mizerydearia> yeah
3461 2011-03-08 21:31:48 <mizerydearia> that's the idea
3462 2011-03-08 21:31:59 <Diablo-D3> thats the insert quarter to continue model
3463 2011-03-08 21:32:03 <luke-jr> speaking of websockets, how do protobuf+websockets handle message lengths?
3464 2011-03-08 21:32:03 <Diablo-D3> it worked for arcade machines
3465 2011-03-08 21:32:08 <Diablo-D3> oh so delicious arcade machines
3466 2011-03-08 21:32:14 <Diablo-D3> mmmmmmmm neogeooooo
3467 2011-03-08 21:32:20 <genjix> that Polargeo is a real cunt
3468 2011-03-08 21:32:23 * Diablo-D3 drools and gargles
3469 2011-03-08 21:32:30 <genjix> he was following me around wikipedia
3470 2011-03-08 21:32:39 <farzong> now im unemployed
3471 2011-03-08 21:32:39 <Diablo-D3> genjix: dude, we're talking video games here
3472 2011-03-08 21:32:46 <farzong> need some bitcoin to pay the rent
3473 2011-03-08 21:32:46 <mizerydearia> but, my more important question related to the model applied to a wiki is, how would users pay and profit from their contributions... it doesn't seem as simple or easy to understand as it does for a ugc site
3474 2011-03-08 21:32:49 <Diablo-D3> not some random cunt you know on the intertubes
3475 2011-03-08 21:32:50 <genjix> and deleted a bunch of images from articles i wrote on my user page
3476 2011-03-08 21:33:00 afed has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3477 2011-03-08 21:33:05 <Diablo-D3> genjix: report him to the admins for vandalizm
3478 2011-03-08 21:33:06 <Diablo-D3> as in
3479 2011-03-08 21:33:10 <Diablo-D3> go into #wikipedia.en
3480 2011-03-08 21:33:11 <Diablo-D3> say
3481 2011-03-08 21:33:19 <mizerydearia> also, I am not familiar with code to establish a wiki, so I will not be able to initiate or establish such a project venture
3482 2011-03-08 21:33:19 <Diablo-D3> "well, I was going to donate $50, but..."
3483 2011-03-08 21:33:25 <Diablo-D3> instant permaban of the offending fucktard
3484 2011-03-08 21:33:49 <farzong> mizerydearia: they have to be paid in karma.. but karma should be semi-finite (to have value) and within everyones reach (widely distributed) and anonymous.. hence.. bitcoin :)
3485 2011-03-08 21:33:56 altamic has joined
3486 2011-03-08 21:34:04 <Diablo-D3> and that was "being a fucking asshole 101", class dismissed
3487 2011-03-08 21:36:16 <mizerydearia> I posted in #wikipedia.  I wonder if I will get banned ^_^
3488 2011-03-08 21:37:00 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
3489 2011-03-08 21:37:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112772 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 123 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 12 hours, 28 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77149.30411352
3490 2011-03-08 21:38:06 <mmarker> DUM DUM DUM
3491 2011-03-08 21:38:27 <mmarker> Cue "Armageddon is coming" posts in T -12h
3492 2011-03-08 21:39:09 <genjix> what is wrong with openssl when their official examples seg fault... -_-
3493 2011-03-08 21:39:29 <mmarker> Crud, need to go to the inlaws
3494 2011-03-08 21:40:30 <lfm> mmarker: good luck with that
3495 2011-03-08 21:40:38 <mizerydearia> If I were to establish such a site wiki + money, would there be anyone interested in joining me to help work on the project?
3496 2011-03-08 21:40:45 <mizerydearia> e.g. a competitor to wikipedia
3497 2011-03-08 21:41:06 <mizerydearia> specifically wiki + bitcoin
3498 2011-03-08 21:41:17 <genjix> mizerydearia: how does it work?
3499 2011-03-08 21:41:25 <mizerydearia> genjix, Are you familiar with how witcoin works?
3500 2011-03-08 21:41:29 <genjix> yeah
3501 2011-03-08 21:41:45 <mizerydearia> then it will be similar, however, I haven't fully established idea behind how it will work for wiki + money
3502 2011-03-08 21:41:46 <genjix> because the current bitcoin wiki has editors but it doesn't see much activity
3503 2011-03-08 21:41:52 <mmarker> lfm: they're great. They haven't camped out in my home yet
3504 2011-03-08 21:41:56 <genjix> sorry i mean a payoff
3505 2011-03-08 21:42:03 <mizerydearia> well
3506 2011-03-08 21:42:11 <mizerydearia> consider authors or writers getting paid for their work
3507 2011-03-08 21:42:28 <mizerydearia> wiki editors can be comparable to writers or authors
3508 2011-03-08 21:42:42 <mizerydearia> and money is motivation factor
3509 2011-03-08 21:42:52 <mizerydearia> where does the money come from?
3510 2011-03-08 21:42:58 <mizerydearia> people that are willing to pay for content
3511 2011-03-08 21:43:10 <mizerydearia> not advertising
3512 2011-03-08 21:43:26 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: that gets rid of the altruistic motive if people get paid, though in this community...
3513 2011-03-08 21:43:27 <genjix> i see
3514 2011-03-08 21:43:31 <mizerydearia> but, how can it be designed or implemented so that users can pay appropriate users or editors
3515 2011-03-08 21:43:48 <genjix> well people put a jackpot on certain articles
3516 2011-03-08 21:44:03 <mizerydearia> not quite
3517 2011-03-08 21:44:10 <mizerydearia> at least I don't think that is a good idea
3518 2011-03-08 21:44:10 <genjix> and you can see that this article pays out X in 1 week
3519 2011-03-08 21:44:18 <genjix> and it's shared depending on the level of work
3520 2011-03-08 21:44:18 <mizerydearia> I think individual edits deserve profitability
3521 2011-03-08 21:44:24 <lfm> just put donation address at the end of the articles
3522 2011-03-08 21:44:34 <mizerydearia> just like at ugc, individual upvoters profit from all further upvotes
3523 2011-03-08 21:44:40 <mizerydearia> like at witcoin
3524 2011-03-08 21:45:01 <genjix> i think witcoin has got it wrong and could do better
3525 2011-03-08 21:45:07 <mizerydearia> lfm, No, the implementation must be automated
3526 2011-03-08 21:45:15 <mizerydearia> genjix, how so?
3527 2011-03-08 21:45:22 mmarker has quit (Quit: Time to blow this taco stand)
3528 2011-03-08 21:45:38 forrestv has joined
3529 2011-03-08 21:46:06 afed has joined
3530 2011-03-08 21:46:08 <genjix> mizerydearia: it relies solely on people donating you up votes
3531 2011-03-08 21:46:26 <mizerydearia> genjix, What do you mean by "it relies"
3532 2011-03-08 21:46:31 <genjix> it would be better if it used a daily jackpot
3533 2011-03-08 21:46:41 <genjix> so people compete for the prive money
3534 2011-03-08 21:46:50 <lfm> mizerydearia: well you cant automate my donations, cuz 1. i dont trust them to be honest, 2. my bitcoins are not on my browser machine
3535 2011-03-08 21:46:58 <genjix> and every major post costs money
3536 2011-03-08 21:47:10 <genjix> upvotes are free
3537 2011-03-08 21:47:20 <genjix> (you get 1 upvote per post you make)
3538 2011-03-08 21:48:44 <genjix> *prize
3539 2011-03-08 21:49:57 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3540 2011-03-08 21:50:48 <slush> ;;bc,stats
3541 2011-03-08 21:50:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112775 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 120 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 12 hours, 10 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77174.25716955
3542 2011-03-08 21:50:56 <mizerydearia> okay, setting aside wiki + money idea for now, and focusing on witcoin: "it relies solely on people donating you up votes" I do not fully understand this, however, if you mean "the website" as "it" then, the claim is inaccurate.  The site functions without requiring upvotes at all.  All posts can be viewed in order by rank (default), newest, oldest, top voted, top replies
3543 2011-03-08 21:52:03 <mizerydearia> Additionally, I have established 'support' which is much more powerful than upvoting
3544 2011-03-08 21:52:27 <EvanR-work> support?
3545 2011-03-08 21:52:29 <mizerydearia> when a user 'supports' you (as a poster or replier), you get 90% of the amount, and the site, category renter and all upvoters get the remaining 10% AND the rank will be increased
3546 2011-03-08 21:52:54 <mizerydearia> it's like donation
3547 2011-03-08 21:53:01 <mizerydearia> or paying as appreciation
3548 2011-03-08 21:53:11 <mizerydearia> gesture of appreciation for writing
3549 2011-03-08 21:53:27 <EvanR-work> why pay for what you can do for free!
3550 2011-03-08 21:53:32 <mizerydearia> exactly
3551 2011-03-08 21:53:46 <mizerydearia> reddit.com and stackoverflow.com use them
3552 2011-03-08 21:54:12 <mizerydearia> however, those sites do not make use of bitcoin and have no affiliation with bitcoin community
3553 2011-03-08 21:54:18 <mizerydearia> My effort is primarily bitcoin-specific.
3554 2011-03-08 21:54:21 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,calc 70000
3555 2011-03-08 21:54:23 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 70000 Khps, given current difficulty of 55590.23763914 , is 5 weeks, 4 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, and 12 seconds
3556 2011-03-08 21:54:24 Beremat has joined
3557 2011-03-08 21:54:37 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: I really think you are overestimating the response people have to tiny amounts of money for work like that...
3558 2011-03-08 21:54:38 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,stats
3559 2011-03-08 21:54:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112775 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 120 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 12 hours, 10 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77174.25716955
3560 2011-03-08 21:54:59 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: go watch "drive" by rsa (no not that rsa, the royal something or other)
3561 2011-03-08 21:55:26 <farzong> is anyone arbitraging the btc/usd market yet by doing exchanges across 3 or 4 markets when the opportunity arises
3562 2011-03-08 21:55:27 <genjix> mizerydearia: i mean that you got to make it competitive
3563 2011-03-08 21:55:29 <mizerydearia> BlueMatt, tiny amounts of money?  I could support a post or reply of yours for 10 or 100 bitcoins.  I suppose that is tiny?
3564 2011-03-08 21:55:37 <mizerydearia> and then you would receive 9 or 90 bitcoins
3565 2011-03-08 21:55:45 <mizerydearia> and your post or reply would be greatly higher ranked
3566 2011-03-08 21:55:59 <genjix> mizerydearia: currently when you vote, you're PAYING for that vote
3567 2011-03-08 21:56:04 <mizerydearia> yes
3568 2011-03-08 21:56:08 <genjix> so someone will go eww fuck that
3569 2011-03-08 21:56:12 <mizerydearia> yes
3570 2011-03-08 21:56:15 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: I don't think many people will pay 100 to vote
3571 2011-03-08 21:56:24 <mizerydearia> paying 100 to 'support' not vote
3572 2011-03-08 21:56:25 <genjix> whereas it's different psychologically if you already own the votes
3573 2011-03-08 21:56:34 <mizerydearia> 'support' and 'vote' are two different events/actions
3574 2011-03-08 21:56:34 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: I think this model just doesnt really match human behavior
3575 2011-03-08 21:56:35 <genjix> (you gain a vote from posting)
3576 2011-03-08 21:56:50 <genjix> and you're like, well this guy helped me so i'll give him a vote
3577 2011-03-08 21:56:57 <mizerydearia> BlueMatt, hmm
3578 2011-03-08 21:56:57 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,calcd 620000 25000
3579 2011-03-08 21:57:00 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 620000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 25000, is 2 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes, and 24 seconds
3580 2011-03-08 21:57:07 <genjix> because you already have the votes
3581 2011-03-08 21:57:17 <genjix> (they can't be cashed out)
3582 2011-03-08 21:57:23 <mizerydearia> genjix, You can't see who voted for you
3583 2011-03-08 21:57:32 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: For small amounts of money, making people work for free gets better results. I dont think anyone will pay big into a system like this
3584 2011-03-08 21:57:35 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,calcd 620000 55000
3585 2011-03-08 21:57:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 620000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 55000, is 4 days, 9 hours, 50 minutes, and 5 seconds
3586 2011-03-08 21:57:47 <genjix> you're not getting what i'm saying mizerydearia
3587 2011-03-08 21:57:53 <EvanR-work> ;;bc,calcd 620000 77000
3588 2011-03-08 21:57:54 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 620000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 77000, is 6 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes, and 7 seconds
3589 2011-03-08 21:58:01 <EvanR-work> :S
3590 2011-03-08 21:58:25 <mizerydearia> genjix, "you already have the votes, they can't be cashed out"   - When someone votes for your post or reply, you receive profit from that activity.  And you can cash that profit out
3591 2011-03-08 21:58:33 <genjix> imagine we are in real life standing inside a sweet shop
3592 2011-03-08 21:58:43 <BlueMatt> mizerydearia: genjix is referring to how you buy m$ points or fb credits and because you cant cash them out, you just assume buy stuff more readily
3593 2011-03-08 21:58:44 <farzong> are blocks being found every 10 minutes
3594 2011-03-08 21:58:58 <genjix> i trip over and you help me.
3595 2011-03-08 21:59:03 <EvanR-work> yes
3596 2011-03-08 21:59:04 <genjix> VS
3597 2011-03-08 21:59:12 <BlueMatt> farzong: very slightly less, on average
3598 2011-03-08 21:59:16 <genjix> i trip over and you help me and i have a pack of sweets in my hand.
3599 2011-03-08 21:59:17 <farzong> i c
3600 2011-03-08 21:59:27 <mizerydearia> ah, I see
3601 2011-03-08 21:59:29 <genjix> i might give you a sweet because i have them.
3602 2011-03-08 21:59:34 <genjix> (same with votes)
3603 2011-03-08 21:59:37 <mizerydearia> "well this guy helped me, so I'll give him a vote" - I understand it now
3604 2011-03-08 21:59:46 <genjix> you should gain the votes from posting
3605 2011-03-08 21:59:52 <mizerydearia> alternatively you could say "well this guy helped me, so I'll give him money"
3606 2011-03-08 21:59:56 <genjix> and the votes should have no monetary value
3607 2011-03-08 22:00:04 <genjix> yeah but now it's about spending money
3608 2011-03-08 22:00:06 <mizerydearia> or "this guy helped me, I'll pay him for his effort/work"
3609 2011-03-08 22:00:30 <genjix> what happens if i decide to only post on the site and never spend money
3610 2011-03-08 22:00:36 <EvanR-work> genjix: you could buy the votes ahead of time, and you cant exchange them back for coins
3611 2011-03-08 22:00:42 <genjix> it's different psychologically
3612 2011-03-08 22:00:49 <EvanR-work> its like these penny auctions
3613 2011-03-08 22:00:53 <EvanR-work> buy bids
3614 2011-03-08 22:01:15 <genjix> whereas if you only ever post to try to win money, in my system you will gain votes
3615 2011-03-08 22:01:21 <mizerydearia> "what happens if I decide to only post on the site and never spend money" - it costs to post on the site
3616 2011-03-08 22:01:22 <genjix> votes which you can use.
3617 2011-03-08 22:01:31 <genjix> i mean spend on others.
3618 2011-03-08 22:01:44 <phantomcircuit> mizerydearia, why would anybody post on a site without content?
3619 2011-03-08 22:01:46 <genjix> you're forcing people in this system to buy some votes
3620 2011-03-08 22:02:12 <genjix> that also... by requiring pay to post, it slows down the activity level
3621 2011-03-08 22:02:28 <genjix> which is why i think you should have a daily jackpot for people to compete over
3622 2011-03-08 22:02:41 <mizerydearia> "where as if you only ever post to try to win money"  -- how about "whereas if you only ever post to try to gain recognition or attention of the content you post"
3623 2011-03-08 22:03:07 <mizerydearia> hmm
3624 2011-03-08 22:03:26 <mizerydearia> well, I could additionally implement a kind of daily jackpot in addition to what already exists
3625 2011-03-08 22:03:38 <mizerydearia> the cost for posting, replying and upvoting also designed to mitigate or reduce spam
3626 2011-03-08 22:04:53 <mizerydearia> Even if my efforts are "wrong" as some have indicated and may feel, perhaps it will help to better establish an understanding on a more "right" implementation that someone (if not me, someone else) can implement.
3627 2011-03-08 22:04:56 MUILTFN has joined
3628 2011-03-08 22:05:30 <EvanR-work> mizerydearia: good pr there, thats what nasa says in press conferences as a last resort ;)
3629 2011-03-08 22:05:38 <mizerydearia> pr?
3630 2011-03-08 22:05:42 <mizerydearia> gah, wtf?
3631 2011-03-08 22:05:42 <EvanR-work> public relations
3632 2011-03-08 22:05:58 <mizerydearia> I'm not trying to release press statements
3633 2011-03-08 22:06:00 <EvanR-work> lol
3634 2011-03-08 22:06:10 <mizerydearia> I'm just a noob working on a bitcoin-related site and am excited to work on it ^_^
3635 2011-03-08 22:06:34 <EvanR-work> 'you may not be doing press releases, but this advice will prepare you if you ever end up in such a situation'
3636 2011-03-08 22:06:51 <genjix> i love the idea though btw :)
3637 2011-03-08 22:06:57 <genjix> want to see you succeed
3638 2011-03-08 22:07:00 <mizerydearia> hehe
3639 2011-03-08 22:07:15 <genjix> im going to show it at a conference ill talk at
3640 2011-03-08 22:07:17 <mizerydearia> well, even if it's not me, someone else is welcome to help establish a competitor as well
3641 2011-03-08 22:07:20 <mizerydearia> and I actively encourage it
3642 2011-03-08 22:07:29 <genjix> as a 'stellar' example of the ideas behind bitcoin
3643 2011-03-08 22:07:31 <mizerydearia> that way if I AM doing something wrong, then someone can help to do it right
3644 2011-03-08 22:07:32 <EvanR-work> me too. someone please compete with mizerydearia
3645 2011-03-08 22:07:36 <BlueMatt> I just generally want to see more bitcoin-based sites, because that is only good for the community
3646 2011-03-08 22:07:45 <BlueMatt> well as long as it doesnt give btc a bad name
3647 2011-03-08 22:07:50 <mizerydearia> e.g. reddit and 4chan are kind of like competitors
3648 2011-03-08 22:08:05 <EvanR-work> BlueMatt: dont worry, lsd and hookers are great PR
3649 2011-03-08 22:08:12 <genjix> mizerydearia: have you thought about modding futaba imageboard software?
3650 2011-03-08 22:08:17 <mizerydearia> never heard of it
3651 2011-03-08 22:08:20 <genjix> i love the 4chan format
3652 2011-03-08 22:08:30 <genjix> oh it's the software for 4chan
3653 2011-03-08 22:08:37 <BlueMatt> EvanR-work: especially for governments who work hard to take down currencies used for bitcoinlaundry.com ;)
3654 2011-03-08 22:09:03 <mizerydearia> ah
3655 2011-03-08 22:09:25 <EvanR-work> BlueMatt: id rather not respond to that in this channel ;)
3656 2011-03-08 22:09:43 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3657 2011-03-08 22:10:55 <genjix> is blowfish secure?
3658 2011-03-08 22:11:04 <mizerydearia> phantomcircuit, I have no idea.
3659 2011-03-08 22:15:20 andynor has joined
3660 2011-03-08 22:15:33 <farzong> where can i get a bitcoin t-shirt
3661 2011-03-08 22:18:34 Spenvo has joined
3662 2011-03-08 22:19:48 BitterTea has joined
3663 2011-03-08 22:19:55 <phantomcircuit> ok im not crazy
3664 2011-03-08 22:20:26 <phantomcircuit> either there is some kind of rate limiting happening in bitcoind that im missing or getblocks breaks something
3665 2011-03-08 22:21:08 <BitterTea> I noticed something seemingly odd earlier today... Bitcoin reported 32 connections. Previously I've only seen 8.
3666 2011-03-08 22:21:48 <farzong> so how do i get someones balance
3667 2011-03-08 22:21:50 <farzong> without doing a tx
3668 2011-03-08 22:22:01 <farzong> to prove they have x BTC
3669 2011-03-08 22:22:07 <BitterTea> farzong: You can't\
3670 2011-03-08 22:22:30 <farzong> i cant.. but someone can
3671 2011-03-08 22:22:46 <farzong> someone who has the whole chain
3672 2011-03-08 22:22:51 <[Noodles]> only if you know who owns which addresses
3673 2011-03-08 22:23:10 <phantomcircuit> farzong, you can show that a specific address has a specific amount of BTC
3674 2011-03-08 22:23:15 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3675 2011-03-08 22:23:16 <phantomcircuit> but you cant show who owns which address
3676 2011-03-08 22:23:21 <farzong> i c
3677 2011-03-08 22:23:44 <farzong> yeah im just lokoing for a databse of account->balance
3678 2011-03-08 22:23:50 <BitterTea> If someone gives you one or more private keys, then you can determine if they have the BTC those keys own, but then you own them :)
3679 2011-03-08 22:23:59 <phantomcircuit> yeah im not crazy there is definitely a bug here
3680 2011-03-08 22:24:22 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: What bug?
3681 2011-03-08 22:24:24 Avemo has joined
3682 2011-03-08 22:24:25 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, you just need the public key
3683 2011-03-08 22:24:37 <BitterTea> No, because that doesn't prove ownership
3684 2011-03-08 22:24:45 <BitterTea> I could give you the public key and say these are my coins, but they are not
3685 2011-03-08 22:24:54 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, sending the same getblocks request fails repeatedly and then all of a sudden works
3686 2011-03-08 22:25:09 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, ok then i have them sign a random piece of crap with their private key
3687 2011-03-08 22:25:14 <BitterTea> But I could send you a message signed with my private key saying "these are my public keys"
3688 2011-03-08 22:25:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah
3689 2011-03-08 22:25:42 <phantomcircuit> although to prevent some less than likely attacks you actually want to do
3690 2011-03-08 22:25:49 <phantomcircuit> me: please sign this random crap
3691 2011-03-08 22:25:50 <lfm> if all thats published is the address then the public key would only be known by the owner
3692 2011-03-08 22:25:59 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: Good idea
3693 2011-03-08 22:25:59 <phantomcircuit> you: ok ill sign random crap and this random crap to
3694 2011-03-08 22:26:01 <phantomcircuit> me: ok then
3695 2011-03-08 22:26:18 <BitterTea> But I don't know if that proof is necessary
3696 2011-03-08 22:26:30 <BitterTea> Just because I have those coins doesn't mean I'm going to send them to you
3697 2011-03-08 22:26:53 <lfm> but once you give one person the public key then he can give it to others
3698 2011-03-08 22:27:23 <lfm> a signature (with a salt or timestamp would be proof too
3699 2011-03-08 22:27:31 <BitterTea> Wouldn't they ask for a different randomcrap?
3700 2011-03-08 22:28:31 <BitterTea> I think the problem this is trying to solve is better solved by escrow
3701 2011-03-08 22:28:43 <phantomcircuit> lfm, yeah i see what you mean the address is actually a checksum and a hash of the public key
3702 2011-03-08 22:28:46 <BitterTea> or some other trust mechanism
3703 2011-03-08 22:29:00 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, well proving you can pay is a step above where we are today
3704 2011-03-08 22:29:14 <phantomcircuit> and actually is a better model for reality
3705 2011-03-08 22:29:15 <EvanR-work> 'show me the money' xD
3706 2011-03-08 22:29:25 <phantomcircuit> restaurants will serve you without seeing a wallet
3707 2011-03-08 22:29:29 <phantomcircuit> unless you look poor
3708 2011-03-08 22:29:37 <phantomcircuit> (or black)
3709 2011-03-08 22:29:40 <BitterTea> phantomcircuit: Really?
3710 2011-03-08 22:29:42 <EvanR-work> rofl
3711 2011-03-08 22:29:51 <BitterTea> I've never heard of a restaurant wallet checking
3712 2011-03-08 22:30:06 <phantomcircuit> BitterTea, usually they just refuse service
3713 2011-03-08 22:30:30 <phantomcircuit> but some really crappy places that have table service will require a prepay
3714 2011-03-08 22:30:42 <phantomcircuit> there aren't many of those around now though...
3715 2011-03-08 22:31:04 <TD> this is what the scripting system is for
3716 2011-03-08 22:31:17 <TD> you can use it to prove to somebody else you have coins without sending them
3717 2011-03-08 22:31:23 <TD> or to implement various forms of escrow
3718 2011-03-08 22:31:48 <phantomcircuit> yeah
3719 2011-03-08 22:32:00 <BitterTea> yeah, once the complexity of bitcoin software increases, I think interesting things will be done with scripting
3720 2011-03-08 22:32:01 <TD> though by escrow people usually mean dispute mediation
3721 2011-03-08 22:32:13 <TD> which obviously implies some kind of human third party judgement
3722 2011-03-08 22:32:22 <BitterTea> rather than complexity increasing, I meant matures
3723 2011-03-08 22:33:03 <TD> yes. it's under explored today.
3724 2011-03-08 22:33:05 <BitterTea> I like the suggestion for ClearCoin, have a method for allowing the two parties to agree on a third party, to which the money is sent if there is a dispute, automatically
3725 2011-03-08 22:33:16 <genjix> scripting system sounds l33t... be nice if there was a tutorial on it :p
3726 2011-03-08 22:33:29 <BitterTea> there is, kinda
3727 2011-03-08 22:33:42 <TD> the IsStandard() checks are a limit on innovation in this area. it'd be nice to relax them on the testnet.
3728 2011-03-08 22:33:54 <BitterTea> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
3729 2011-03-08 22:33:56 <TD> nobody is designing non-standard transactions today though, that i know of
3730 2011-03-08 22:34:03 Necr0s has joined
3731 2011-03-08 22:34:10 <TD> well except gavin
3732 2011-03-08 22:34:49 <BitterTea> I wonder if you could use interesting scripts as some sort of contract
3733 2011-03-08 22:35:07 <[Tycho]> Non-standart transactions are funny. I would like to try :)
3734 2011-03-08 22:35:27 <TD> yes, probably. the [current] need to get global consensus on transaction formats makes that hard though
3735 2011-03-08 22:35:28 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: you run a pool.  you can offer that service to individuals
3736 2011-03-08 22:36:05 <jgarzik> TD: it's mainly miner consent
3737 2011-03-08 22:36:07 <BitterTea> Wasn't there an early pool that created new blocks with multiple outputs?
3738 2011-03-08 22:36:16 <[Tycho]> Well, i should come up with some idea that would be needed to someone.
3739 2011-03-08 22:36:38 <jgarzik> BitterTea: puddinpop's pool software does that
3740 2011-03-08 22:36:47 <TD> well, nodes won't relay non-standard transactions today so you have to subvert the p2p-ness of it to get non standard transactions through. but yeah. if miners support it you can always connect directly
3741 2011-03-08 22:36:59 <jgarzik> TD: exactly
3742 2011-03-08 22:37:06 <BitterTea> [Tycho]: I would switch to a pool that split payouts in the generation block, rather than a separate transaction.
3743 2011-03-08 22:37:24 <[Tycho]> BitterTea, that's not really a great idea.
3744 2011-03-08 22:37:34 <[Tycho]> Well, it's funny indeed, but less useful.
3745 2011-03-08 22:37:35 <jgarzik> TD: in T+2 years, I'm guessing there will be a small number of large miners, and you can get special processing by direct connection
3746 2011-03-08 22:38:24 <jgarzik> BitterTea: why?  the first tx would be -huge-, and possible create more traffic than more individualized payout intervals + 'sendmany' JSON
3747 2011-03-08 22:38:38 <gavinandresen> ... or you can experiment with non-standard transactions now on a testnet....
3748 2011-03-08 22:39:18 <lfm> jgarzik: when pudinpop was doing it, it worked mostly ok
3749 2011-03-08 22:39:32 <mizerydearia> oooh, I just noticed --> <genjix> im going to show it at a conference ill talk at
3750 2011-03-08 22:39:34 <mizerydearia> genjix, that seems exciting.  ^_^
3751 2011-03-08 22:39:35 <jgarzik> lfm: it's just a matter of scale
3752 2011-03-08 22:39:42 <mizerydearia> genjix, When are you going to show it at a talk?  I'd like to know to see if I can get the charity implementation in by then, and maybe if you would like, you can reference it if it fits.
3753 2011-03-08 22:39:50 <jgarzik> lfm: imagine slush doing that, sending 0.0001 to 1,000 CPU miners :)
3754 2011-03-08 22:39:52 <BitterTea> Will a non standard transaction cause a block to be invalid?
3755 2011-03-08 22:40:26 <BitterTea> Sorry if these are dumb questions, [7}
3756 2011-03-08 22:40:27 <jgarzik> BitterTea: not as long as the TX may still be validated by the script engine / verify stuff
3757 2011-03-08 22:40:32 satamusic has joined
3758 2011-03-08 22:40:49 <jgarzik> BitterTea: client's wont' relay strange TX's, but they will accept strange TX's in blocks
3759 2011-03-08 22:41:01 <BitterTea> Thanks, that's the question I was asking
3760 2011-03-08 22:41:04 <TD> they're not dumb questions
3761 2011-03-08 22:41:10 <TD> this stuff is not documented at all in satoshis paper
3762 2011-03-08 22:41:18 <lfm> jgarzik: you could still save up to even cents,
3763 2011-03-08 22:41:20 <TD> everything that is written down about scripts was figured out by reading the code
3764 2011-03-08 22:41:44 <genjix> mizerydearia: talk about bitcoin :D
3765 2011-03-08 22:42:06 <jgarzik> the script wiki page should show which ops are actually enabled
3766 2011-03-08 22:42:09 <jgarzik> a bunch are disabled
3767 2011-03-08 22:42:20 <slush> lfm: agree with jgarzik, generating block directly with transactions inside is nonsense
3768 2011-03-08 22:42:22 <BitterTea> I thought it did somewhere
3769 2011-03-08 22:42:26 <slush> lfm: in world of big pools
3770 2011-03-08 22:42:29 <TD> a few are marked as disabled
3771 2011-03-08 22:42:50 <slush> lfm: I mean generation transactions, hope it is clear
3772 2011-03-08 22:43:38 Vlad__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3773 2011-03-08 22:43:45 <mizerydearia> genjix, ah ^_^  my mistake
3774 2011-03-08 22:43:55 <farzong> need moar bic
3775 2011-03-08 22:44:00 <lfm> slush single multi-ouput gen txn? you can still save up to thresholds and such
3776 2011-03-08 22:44:30 <BitterTea> lfm: I've been trying to think of how
3777 2011-03-08 22:44:37 <slush> lfm: yes, single multi output it ok,  I though you're talking about dividing those 50 BTC directly between participants
3778 2011-03-08 22:45:15 <slush> lfm: but still, even with multi output tx, having some threshold like 0.01 is necessary
3779 2011-03-08 22:45:24 <slush> lfm: in fact, I'm thinking about rising it to 0.1
3780 2011-03-08 22:45:44 <lfm> slush quite reasonable.
3781 2011-03-08 22:45:57 <BitterTea> Mine's at 5
3782 2011-03-08 22:46:00 <Spenvo> Err, this friend I know just won two bets on Bitcoin Sportsbook. I hope he didn't break a law or something. My mother does not approve.
3783 2011-03-08 22:46:25 <slush> BitterTea: yes, but there are some people wanting their 0.01 asap :)
3784 2011-03-08 22:46:37 <phantomcircuit> i can practically guarantee you Bitcoin Sportsbook is illegal
3785 2011-03-08 22:46:39 <phantomcircuit> xD
3786 2011-03-08 22:46:51 <lfm> Spenvo: is he a minor? prolly is illegal then
3787 2011-03-08 22:47:13 <phantomcircuit> oh sweet irony
3788 2011-03-08 22:47:23 <Spenvo> yeah, he definitely shouldn't have bet on julyzerg to beat nada (with odds). and mc to beat hongun
3789 2011-03-08 22:47:26 <phantomcircuit> i could bet against the difficulty rising, then DoS the network
3790 2011-03-08 22:47:37 <phantomcircuit> but once it came back up the BTC i won wouldn't be worth as much
3791 2011-03-08 22:47:38 <phantomcircuit> !
3792 2011-03-08 22:47:50 <phantomcircuit> also lol @ 10k spreads
3793 2011-03-08 22:48:18 <lfm> difficulty doesnt really set value of btc
3794 2011-03-08 22:48:23 MUILTFN has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3795 2011-03-08 22:48:33 <phantomcircuit> lfm, no but not being able to trade it for a week would
3796 2011-03-08 22:48:43 <farzong> btcsaw
3797 2011-03-08 22:49:18 <lfm> farzong: huh?
3798 2011-03-08 22:49:27 <phantomcircuit> BDF OVER 250,000 end of Mar 2011 ET	-250000.0	10.00
3799 2011-03-08 22:49:32 <phantomcircuit> lol someone actually took that?
3800 2011-03-08 22:49:37 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,stats
3801 2011-03-08 22:49:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 112782 | Current Difficulty: 55590.23763914 | Next Difficulty At Block: 112895 | Next Difficulty In: 113 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 11 hours, 23 minutes, and 39 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77117.44312570
3802 2011-03-08 22:49:45 <phantomcircuit> actually
3803 2011-03-08 22:49:49 <phantomcircuit> that's not so ridiculous
3804 2011-03-08 22:50:01 <BitterTea> what's BDF?
3805 2011-03-08 22:50:08 <phantomcircuit> the difficulty
3806 2011-03-08 22:50:15 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin difficulty factor
3807 2011-03-08 22:50:17 <Necr0s> over 250k?  no
3808 2011-03-08 22:50:29 <Necr0s> 150 maybe
3809 2011-03-08 22:50:32 <Beremat> yeah, definitely not
3810 2011-03-08 22:50:42 <phantomcircuit> its possible
3811 2011-03-08 22:50:59 <Diablo-D3> OVER NINE THOUSAND
3812 2011-03-08 22:51:00 <BitterTea> not without some serious additions to the bitcoin network, I don't think
3813 2011-03-08 22:51:12 <genjix> i honestly wonder how C programmers can manage to write such poor APIs
3814 2011-03-08 22:51:21 <[Tycho]> "BDF OVER 250,000 end of Mar 2011" - MM did that :)
3815 2011-03-08 22:51:30 <genjix> it's like they make an effort to do so
3816 2011-03-08 22:51:49 <[Tycho]> C is the best language ever.
3817 2011-03-08 22:52:12 <Diablo-D3> except when Java is the best language ever
3818 2011-03-08 22:52:13 <ArtForz> C is the most portable macro assembler ever
3819 2011-03-08 22:52:28 <Diablo-D3> hee
3820 2011-03-08 22:53:38 * lfm likes assemblers , even C assemblers
3821 2011-03-08 22:54:02 <phantomcircuit> http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/news/local/chi-mug-photogallery,0,4078555.photogallery?index=chi-mug-030411-oscar-preciado
3822 2011-03-08 22:54:03 <phantomcircuit> wat
3823 2011-03-08 22:54:08 <phantomcircuit> Charge: Illegal possession of a motor vehicle
3824 2011-03-08 22:54:09 <phantomcircuit> rofl
3825 2011-03-08 22:54:21 <TD> for an escrow transaction i think you could do something like:    <your pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG OP_DUP <dest1hash160> OP_EQUAL OP_DUP <dest2hash160> OP_EQUAL OP_ADD <1> OP_EQUALVERIFY
3826 2011-03-08 22:54:40 <ArtForz> dont we have multisigverify?
3827 2011-03-08 22:54:41 <TD> then scriptSig would be <one of the two dest addresses> <sig>
3828 2011-03-08 22:54:49 <TD> i think that requires all the sigs match
3829 2011-03-08 22:54:55 <TD> that is you have to sign with multiple keys to release the coins
3830 2011-03-08 22:54:56 <ArtForz> yes
3831 2011-03-08 22:55:06 <TD> rather than being able to select only one of a pre-selected set of addresses
3832 2011-03-08 22:55:27 <farzong> wow that is ingenious
3833 2011-03-08 22:55:30 <TD> the idea here is you can prove to a merchant you have the coins, moreover, that you either have to send them to the merchant or to some other third party
3834 2011-03-08 22:55:36 <TD> like an escrow service or a charity or something
3835 2011-03-08 22:55:42 <TD> but you can't take the coins back yourself
3836 2011-03-08 22:55:46 <farzong> claim the funds only if xyz
3837 2011-03-08 22:55:51 <TD> assuming the 2nd address isn't yours of course
3838 2011-03-08 22:56:19 <ArtForz> *shrug*
3839 2011-03-08 22:56:51 <farzong> if RSA(user-value-1) = mong then release;   // they can cash in only if they receive another secret key offline / in the mail / in person
3840 2011-03-08 22:57:17 <farzong> embed puzzles in the claim
3841 2011-03-08 22:58:02 <farzong> if (valid-proof(p<>np,value-1)) release millenium prize;
3842 2011-03-08 22:58:10 <ArtForz> rofl... the proof-of-work transaction
3843 2011-03-08 22:58:12 <TD> checkmultisig looks useful for having coins that can be claimed by multiple people
3844 2011-03-08 22:58:21 <TD> first come first serve
3845 2011-03-08 22:58:36 <ArtForz> iirc checkmultisig requres *all* sigs to return true
3846 2011-03-08 22:58:51 <TD> wiki page sez:  "For each signature and public key pair, OP_CHECKSIG is executed. If more public keys than signatures are listed, some key/sig pairs can fail. All signatures need to match a public key"
3847 2011-03-08 22:59:10 <ArtForz> huh?
3848 2011-03-08 22:59:11 <TD> so if you provide 5 public keys, and the scriptSig contains just one signature, it should still pass as long as the sig is from one of the five keys
3849 2011-03-08 22:59:24 <TD> i haven't checked the code. that's just going from the wiki
3850 2011-03-08 22:59:59 <ArtForz> ahhh
3851 2011-03-08 23:00:03 <lfm> how would you get an escrow key to work with your own key. I thot the escrow would be controlled by a third party?
3852 2011-03-08 23:00:03 <ArtForz> it's n-of-m
3853 2011-03-08 23:00:31 <ArtForz> so you can say "needs at least x sigs of these y pubkeys"
3854 2011-03-08 23:00:34 <TD> yeah
3855 2011-03-08 23:00:55 <TD> lfm: you only need the third party if there's a dispute. if there's no dispute (majority of transactions hopefully!) then having the coins be owned by an escrow service temporarily is suboptimal
3856 2011-03-08 23:00:59 <farzong> Sweden is doing away with stamps. Instead, the public will pay for letters and small packages via text message and get a code to write on the envelope.
3857 2011-03-08 23:01:28 <TD> lfm: what you really want to say is, look merchant. here is a tx that proves i have the cash. what's more, i've set it up so these coins can either go to you, or to a mediation service.
3858 2011-03-08 23:01:44 <TD> so now the merchant has confidence in the buyer. the buyer has lost the coins. either the merchant gets them, or a neutral third party gets them
3859 2011-03-08 23:02:04 <TD> and if the merchant tries to screw the buyer, they can route the coins to the mediator
3860 2011-03-08 23:02:06 <ArtForz> farzong: yay, more fees for mobile operators
3861 2011-03-08 23:02:13 <TD> but if there's no dispute, the mediator never has a chance to steal the coins
3862 2011-03-08 23:02:28 <farzong> haha ArtForz.. yeah i imagine in the US it might cost more to send/receive a text than buy a stamp. hopefully its better in sweden
3863 2011-03-08 23:02:33 <BitterTea> ArtForz: I'm sure they didn't lobby for it though...
3864 2011-03-08 23:03:02 <ArtForz> well, at least .de isnt much better
3865 2011-03-08 23:03:07 <BitterTea> farzong: How do text messages work there? Does everyone get unlimited texts?
3866 2011-03-08 23:04:56 <lfm> no
3867 2011-03-08 23:05:00 <farzong> not sure BitterTea, maybe they have a deal with the post office to make it free like an info text
3868 2011-03-08 23:05:33 <lfm> post office doesnt do sms
3869 2011-03-08 23:05:49 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3870 2011-03-08 23:05:54 <cschneid> jgarzik: ping?
3871 2011-03-08 23:05:55 <farzong> they do noe!
3872 2011-03-08 23:05:58 <farzong> now rather
3873 2011-03-08 23:06:12 bitcoiner has joined
3874 2011-03-08 23:06:45 <lfm> naw, its not the PO. it just the cell companies be greedy
3875 2011-03-08 23:07:31 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3876 2011-03-08 23:12:22 <knotwork> does paytxfee work when used per transaction by non-daemon bitcoind to tel a daemon bitcoind a specific send command?
3877 2011-03-08 23:12:56 <knotwork> or does it have to be in the daemon's commandline applying to all transactions non-daemons ask the damon to process for them?
3878 2011-03-08 23:13:21 <farzong> count drugula
3879 2011-03-08 23:14:50 <molecular> farzong, this electronic stamp is used in germany, too. you can also just draw a matrix of 4x4 digits (0-9) on the envelope... pretty cool. unfortunately, this fuckers managed to make that sort of "stamp" mor expensive than the traditional one, lol
3880 2011-03-08 23:15:04 <molecular> s/draw/write
3881 2011-03-08 23:15:41 <farzong> haha molecular.. interesting
3882 2011-03-08 23:16:48 <farzong> well in the future they will just put a bitcoin qr code on it with the stipulation that the receiver must unlock it (postal service only gets paid if shipment is received)
3883 2011-03-08 23:17:42 <jgarzik> cschneid: pong
3884 2011-03-08 23:18:00 <jgarzik> knotwork: no
3885 2011-03-08 23:18:09 <knotwork> thanks
3886 2011-03-08 23:18:14 <cschneid> jgarzik: made cpuminer compile on osx
3887 2011-03-08 23:18:25 <cschneid> had to twiddle the bitswap.h declaration in miner.h
3888 2011-03-08 23:18:33 <knotwork> uh no to first part or second?
3889 2011-03-08 23:18:48 <Necr0s> How good is cpuminer getting to be?
3890 2011-03-08 23:19:03 <jgarzik> knotwork: -paytxfee applies to bitcoind, not the mode used to issue JSON-RPC commands
3891 2011-03-08 23:19:08 <cschneid> https://gist.github.com/6ffc0804f06bd3eab77c -- then change  #include <byteswap.h> to #include "byteswap.h"
3892 2011-03-08 23:19:11 <knotwork> thanks
3893 2011-03-08 23:19:21 <cschneid> jgarzik: ^^ I didn't wrap it up nicely in patch form, but that's all it took
3894 2011-03-08 23:19:55 <jgarzik> cschneid: hunt around, I know osx has byteswap macros in the system somewhere
3895 2011-03-08 23:20:01 <cschneid> stole the byteswap.h code from http://www.mail-archive.com/barry-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg00111.html
3896 2011-03-08 23:20:07 <cschneid> dunno - made it work...
3897 2011-03-08 23:20:09 <jgarzik> cschneid: plus, we need to integrate this into autotools
3898 2011-03-08 23:20:17 * cschneid is not up to date on C programming
3899 2011-03-08 23:20:23 <cschneid> I can hack my way around - but autotools....
3900 2011-03-08 23:21:15 <molecular> farzong, damnit, just looked at post.de, this method of writing the code on the envelope by hand is not mentioned any more... :( fuck, that was a really nice idea
3901 2011-03-08 23:21:18 akem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3902 2011-03-08 23:21:30 <farzong> bummer
3903 2011-03-08 23:21:41 <farzong> i think they are going to do it in sweden now
3904 2011-03-08 23:21:45 <molecular> didn't look too deeply, though... that page sux bigtime
3905 2011-03-08 23:21:59 <molecular> I'd like to be able to pay my letters by bitcoin, please
3906 2011-03-08 23:22:04 <molecular> shall write them an email
3907 2011-03-08 23:23:57 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3908 2011-03-08 23:24:30 <molecular> farzong, snail-mail is doomed anyways
3909 2011-03-08 23:24:30 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3910 2011-03-08 23:25:02 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
3911 2011-03-08 23:25:55 <molecular> farzong, there's quite an effort underway to make email-system legally binding (signed and verified recipient)... not that we have a digital signature law since (I think) 1996
3912 2011-03-08 23:26:11 <farzong> yeah that would make sense
3913 2011-03-08 23:26:17 <molecular> of course
3914 2011-03-08 23:26:30 <luke-jr> molecular: it's already legally binding.
3915 2011-03-08 23:26:33 <jercos> Forged emails, here I come.
3916 2011-03-08 23:26:39 <luke-jr> you just have to prove the person who sent it is the actual person
3917 2011-03-08 23:26:47 <ArtForz> if you're talking about de-mail, boy does that suck
3918 2011-03-08 23:26:57 <molecular> but the "deutsche post" charges the same amount (55 eurocents) for an "ePost-Brief" (email) as for traditional paper-mail, lol
3919 2011-03-08 23:27:04 <molecular> ArtForz, yes
3920 2011-03-08 23:27:08 <molecular> big suck cock
3921 2011-03-08 23:27:48 doublec has joined
3922 2011-03-08 23:28:26 <ArtForz> weird pricing, encryption only between client and mailserver, *server* receiving mail is considered legal proof of delivery...
3923 2011-03-08 23:29:07 <molecular> ArtForz, what? are you serious, not end-to-end?
3924 2011-03-08 23:29:15 <ArtForz> nope
3925 2011-03-08 23:29:30 <molecular> well, I didn't look into that at all so far... but now I wont
3926 2011-03-08 23:29:42 <molecular> there goes the briefgeheimnis
3927 2011-03-08 23:29:45 Spenvo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3928 2011-03-08 23:30:03 <luke-jr> molecular: they can leave it at your house already
3929 2011-03-08 23:30:10 <molecular> I know
3930 2011-03-08 23:30:13 <luke-jr> leaving it at your mail server is the same
3931 2011-03-08 23:30:22 <molecular> but why not make things better, while you can ;|
3932 2011-03-08 23:30:27 <molecular> goddamnit this makes me furious
3933 2011-03-08 23:31:37 <knotwork> oherwise you could simply not look in your mailbox to claim you never rceived it
3934 2011-03-08 23:31:58 <ArtForz> cam't wait for the first time a server loses its spool ...
3935 2011-03-08 23:31:59 <knotwork> so they kind have to figure not checking your server for mail isnt their problem
3936 2011-03-08 23:32:34 <knotwork> lost spool, rats raided mailbox, whatever. they put it there what happens next isnt their problem
3937 2011-03-08 23:33:04 <knotwork> at least they arent saying well its at dead letter office not our fault you never check there
3938 2011-03-08 23:34:12 <luke-jr> holy crap
3939 2011-03-08 23:34:22 <luke-jr> 26 tx in the block I'm working on
3940 2011-03-08 23:34:26 <knotwork> alsp proof of delivery is far cry from proof of receipt
3941 2011-03-08 23:34:26 <luke-jr> 28!
3942 2011-03-08 23:34:48 <luke-jr> knotwork: there are much bigger problems with the legal system, pick your battles
3943 2011-03-08 23:34:50 <ArtForz> 304888344611713860501504000000?
3944 2011-03-08 23:35:05 <luke-jr> ArtForz: I require fees for all tx… never seen as many as 28 yet
3945 2011-03-08 23:35:15 <luke-jr> I hope I make the block so I can see what they are XD
3946 2011-03-08 23:35:18 <ArtForz> oh, 28, not 28!
3947 2011-03-08 23:35:24 <luke-jr> lol
3948 2011-03-08 23:36:05 <molecular> I once had serious legal trouble costing me €1500 due to a "einschreiben" not being delivered to me in person. apparently in germany it's sufficient to drop shit into your mailbox to consider it "received"
3949 2011-03-08 23:36:29 <ArtForz> iirc theres like 3 different levels
3950 2011-03-08 23:37:02 <luke-jr> I once had a landlord claim to have left me an eviction warning they never left
3951 2011-03-08 23:37:06 <luke-jr> (I was home the whole day)
3952 2011-03-08 23:37:29 <luke-jr> I would have ignored it anyway, since it was unfounded, but still
3953 2011-03-08 23:37:38 <molecular> it was for me to proove that I didnt receive it (how would I friggin do that), since I "had access to the mailbox at the time". the mailbox was at my old adress... I moved out from there 3 months earlier. my name was still on the fucking mailbox, though (amongst about 9 other names)
3954 2011-03-08 23:38:11 sabalaba has joined
3955 2011-03-08 23:38:14 <farzong> another trick for lawyers / courts to screw ppl
3956 2011-03-08 23:38:39 <ArtForz> well, actually thats a good way for lawyers to screw themselves
3957 2011-03-08 23:38:49 <molecular> ArtForz, you're right. if the finanzamt had invested 11 more cents, it could've been an "einschreiben mit rückschein", fuckers
3958 2011-03-08 23:38:52 <lfm> you are legally required to tell everyone in the whole world your new address when you move. and the PO charges you 50 cents for each notice
3959 2011-03-08 23:38:56 <ArtForz> you generally send important crap hand delivery only
3960 2011-03-08 23:39:08 <molecular> right, not the finanzamt, though
3961 2011-03-08 23:39:29 <ArtForz> yep
3962 2011-03-08 23:40:01 <ArtForz> I was talking more about the general business side
3963 2011-03-08 23:40:19 <lfm> so I cant afford to move
3964 2011-03-08 23:41:14 <ArtForz> lol
3965 2011-03-08 23:41:51 <molecular> lfm: where do you live?
3966 2011-03-08 23:42:11 <lfm> didnt you get my last notice?
3967 2011-03-08 23:42:22 <ArtForz> for civil stuff "hey, I never got that" *can* work
3968 2011-03-08 23:43:06 <molecular> in germany the "normal procedure" is to tell the postal service and pay them to send shit after you. downside: they sell your new adress openly to marketing 3rd parties
3969 2011-03-08 23:43:13 <molecular> lfm, "last notice"?
3970 2011-03-08 23:43:25 <ArtForz> molecular: I know, sucks
3971 2011-03-08 23:43:34 <lfm> ya, last time I moved. I think it was 1978
3972 2011-03-08 23:43:38 <ArtForz> should be fucking illegal
3973 2011-03-08 23:43:52 <molecular> dude, lfm, that's like the last time I was born
3974 2011-03-08 23:43:58 <molecular> ArtForz, true!
3975 2011-03-08 23:44:11 <luke-jr> in the US, the normal procedure is to tell the postal service and they forward stuff at no charge
3976 2011-03-08 23:44:32 <lfm> here they only forward for 6 months
3977 2011-03-08 23:44:32 <luke-jr> for 6 months
3978 2011-03-08 23:44:34 <molecular> ArtForz, but who cares, these ex-monopilies have to support all these beamten FUCKFUCKFUCK
3979 2011-03-08 23:44:59 <molecular> lfm: in germany: as long as you pay €15 per 6 month, they will keep going for a long time
3980 2011-03-08 23:45:09 <molecular> after all it's just a record in a db
3981 2011-03-08 23:45:45 <molecular> in the US, the last mile belongs to the people, too.
3982 2011-03-08 23:45:48 <molecular> not in germany
3983 2011-03-08 23:45:54 <lfm> my mom made the mistake of having her Post Office privatized in may. that means the auto-forward only lasted till nov and all her xmas cards went return to sender
3984 2011-03-08 23:46:14 <molecular> return to sender is not worst-case ;)
3985 2011-03-08 23:46:34 <lfm> assume they had return address
3986 2011-03-08 23:47:56 <lfm> she is still getting cards that got re-routed 5 times and no telling how many got burned
3987 2011-03-08 23:48:30 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3988 2011-03-08 23:48:30 <lfm> and she didnt even move, they just closed to PO where she had a box
3989 2011-03-08 23:49:46 <agorist> could it be that all the users in #bitcoin at irc.lfnet.org are current running bitcoin clients?
3990 2011-03-08 23:50:08 <lfm> agorist: sure why not
3991 2011-03-08 23:50:15 <agorist> are they?
3992 2011-03-08 23:50:23 <luke-jr> agorist: no way to tell
3993 2011-03-08 23:50:29 <lfm> some bitcoin users are not there tho
3994 2011-03-08 23:50:32 <nanotube> agorist: probably not /all/ the users, some people come in there to idle.
3995 2011-03-08 23:50:44 <nanotube> and some nodes run with -noirc
3996 2011-03-08 23:50:51 <lfm> they dont have the funny nicks useually tho
3997 2011-03-08 23:50:59 <dazoe> how can i find the current exchange rate?
3998 2011-03-08 23:51:09 <nanotube> but generally, there's a good overlap between the set of users on that chan, and set of bitcoin clients online.
3999 2011-03-08 23:51:09 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
4000 2011-03-08 23:51:10 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.885,"low":0.85,"vol":4778,"buy":0.8505,"sell":0.87,"last":0.87}}
4001 2011-03-08 23:51:27 <lfm> last was 0.87 then
4002 2011-03-08 23:52:06 <luke-jr> dazoe: you can also sit in #bitcoin-watch for realtime updates
4003 2011-03-08 23:52:11 <dazoe> so mtgox? what about the other markets?
4004 2011-03-08 23:52:21 <lfm> ;;bc,markets
4005 2011-03-08 23:52:23 <gribble> HTTP Error 404: Not Found
4006 2011-03-08 23:52:25 <agorist> nanotube: so you are saying 3138 bitcoin clients are running right now all over the world is  a good approximation ?
4007 2011-03-08 23:52:32 <lfm> oops its broke
4008 2011-03-08 23:52:32 <luke-jr> I'm not sure there are any other markets right now :x
4009 2011-03-08 23:52:45 <lfm> ;;bc,bcm
4010 2011-03-08 23:52:47 <gribble> [{"pair": "BMBTC/BMUSD", "ask": "0.0", "bid": "1.6", "time": 1299627624}, {"pair": "BMBTC/BMAUD", "ask": "0.0", "bid": "0.0", "time": 1299627624}, {"pair": "BMBTC/BMGAU", "ask": "0.025", "bid": "0.019", "time": 1299627624}, {"pair": "BMBTC/LRUSD", "ask": "0.0", "bid": "0.5", "time": 1299627624}, {"pair": "BMBTC/MBUSD", "ask": "0.0", "bid": "0.9", "time": 1299627624}, {"pair": "BMBTC/MLUSD", (1 more message)
4011 2011-03-08 23:52:54 <luke-jr> lfm: BCM has been broken for weeks
4012 2011-03-08 23:52:57 <dazoe> http://www.bitcoincharts.com/markets/
4013 2011-03-08 23:53:03 <nanotube> agorist: it is a 'decent' and 'very rough' approximation. :)
4014 2011-03-08 23:53:12 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki bitcoin map page
4015 2011-03-08 23:53:12 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Map_(Collaborative_map) | The Bitcoin Map is a collaborative map project intended as a visual directory to Bitcoin ... This page was last modified on 24 February 2011, at 01:44. ...
4016 2011-03-08 23:53:22 <agorist> nanotube: 3000 bitcoin users just don't seem to be a lot of users ;p
4017 2011-03-08 23:53:22 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki bitcoin map -collaborative
4018 2011-03-08 23:53:23 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Bitcoin_Map | Dec 20, 2010 ... I think the map should resolve (PTR/rDNS) the IPs it finds for statistic reasons . It shouldn't hurt, unless if it's applied in mass (see ...
4019 2011-03-08 23:53:39 <nanotube> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Map
4020 2011-03-08 23:53:40 <nanotube> there
4021 2011-03-08 23:53:45 <nanotube> agorist: --^ that's a better approximation.
4022 2011-03-08 23:54:08 <agorist> does that mean 5mil BTC are spread over roughly 5k-7k people?
4023 2011-03-08 23:54:32 <lfm> agorist: well it has been steadily going up afaik
4024 2011-03-08 23:54:58 <nanotube> agorist: probably more people - not everyone keeps a node up all the time, etc. but yes, the "number of bitcoin users" is somewhere in the range of 10k people, at a rough guess.
4025 2011-03-08 23:55:42 <lfm> agorist: most btc users have less than 1 btc I suspect
4026 2011-03-08 23:55:44 <agorist> so that's 5,000 per user on average
4027 2011-03-08 23:56:06 <agorist> lfm, what percentage of all btc users have less than 1btc you suspect?
4028 2011-03-08 23:56:30 <lfm> 51%, hell i dont know
4029 2011-03-08 23:56:46 <lfm> maybe 95%
4030 2011-03-08 23:56:51 <nanotube> ;;channelstats
4031 2011-03-08 23:56:51 <gribble> On #bitcoin-dev there have been 347476 messages, containing 15493958 characters, 2762506 words, 16089 smileys, and 995 frowns; 4073 of those messages were ACTIONs.  There have been 23057 joins, 1183 parts, 21754 quits, 13 kicks, 289 mode changes, and 15 topic changes.  There are currently 198 users and the channel has peaked at 205 users.
4032 2011-03-08 23:56:58 <nanotube> peak >200 woo.
4033 2011-03-08 23:57:06 <nanotube> agorist: impossible to say....
4034 2011-03-08 23:57:24 <agorist> it just seems most of btc wealth will be concentrated in very few hands
4035 2011-03-08 23:57:43 <lfm> agorist: yup, its like money that way
4036 2011-03-08 23:58:00 <agorist> haha, you mean fiat money
4037 2011-03-08 23:58:12 <lfm> money is money
4038 2011-03-08 23:58:25 <nanotube> agorist: like gold too :)
4039 2011-03-08 23:58:42 <agorist> nanotube hehe
4040 2011-03-08 23:59:28 <lfm> its like saying most of the big houses are owned by rich people, waaaa ... its not fair
4041 2011-03-08 23:59:30 <agorist> so mining seems to be very profitable right now