1 2011-03-12 00:00:18 <genjix> some obscure culture reference?
2 2011-03-12 00:01:45 <midnightmagic> Movie reference from the 60s.
3 2011-03-12 00:02:14 <mmarker> Ding ding ding!
4 2011-03-12 00:02:59 da2ce7 has quit ()
5 2011-03-12 00:03:10 <mmarker> genjix: Oh, mysql decided it wanted to consume 100% of the VPS's memory
6 2011-03-12 00:03:15 <mmarker> which thereby killed ssh
7 2011-03-12 00:03:19 <mmarker> I think I fixed it
8 2011-03-12 00:03:47 <mmarker> Dunno if you're still working on the project
9 2011-03-12 00:04:56 <genjix> mmarker: yes i am... but i work on lots of things (cycle through different projects)
10 2011-03-12 00:05:23 <mmarker> Ok. Just checking to make sure you weren't in a panic. Seems like the problem was going on for a few hours
11 2011-03-12 00:05:37 <mmarker> I had to turn off InnoDB...so hope you aren't using that
12 2011-03-12 00:05:43 <genjix> do you mind if i host another bitcoin site i'm working on there for testing?
13 2011-03-12 00:06:04 <genjix> until i'm able to get another more permanent vps :p
14 2011-03-12 00:06:17 <genjix> source code is open ofc
15 2011-03-12 00:07:00 <genjix> exchange: http://gitorious.org/intersango/master/trees/master and wallet encryption + backup service: https://github.com/genjix/sekureco
16 2011-03-12 00:07:09 <mmarker> genjix: Ok. But careful if it's going to chat the bitcoin protocol. jgarzik's warning of how chatty bitcoin is isn't making me happy
17 2011-03-12 00:07:25 <mmarker> especially since I have very little bandwidth allocated on the box
18 2011-03-12 00:07:34 <genjix> oh ok
19 2011-03-12 00:07:53 <genjix> MagicalTux: around?
20 2011-03-12 00:08:00 <genjix> i wonder if he's around yet :p
21 2011-03-12 00:09:00 <javagamer> Are bitcoin addresses a fixed length?
22 2011-03-12 00:09:08 <genjix> no
23 2011-03-12 00:09:13 <genjix> max len = 44
24 2011-03-12 00:09:36 <javagamer> Perfect, just what I needed to know, thanks.
25 2011-03-12 00:10:09 <mmarker> I will need to reimage and reinstall my software on the VPS back at some point, so let me know when you have a more permanent home.
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27 2011-03-12 00:11:39 <genjix> ok thanks
28 2011-03-12 00:12:48 <slush> I just found that it takes almost 20 second to deliver newly mined block from pool to my bitcoin client. Is that normal?
29 2011-03-12 00:13:49 <slush> I have clocks synchronized and pool is well connected
30 2011-03-12 00:14:08 <slush> so I expect it should take few (<5 seconds) to propagate thru current network
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33 2011-03-12 00:18:07 <BlueMatt> tcatm: reason uiproject wasn't updated when the send to IP example was removed?
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39 2011-03-12 00:25:11 <BlueMatt> tcatm: also, when the send to IP thing was removed from the dialog box, the address was changed, probably to one that doesn't help the devs
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42 2011-03-12 00:29:53 <phantomcircuit> slush, via rpc?
43 2011-03-12 00:30:47 <slush> I'm listening directly on 8333 on my local node
44 2011-03-12 00:31:15 <phantomcircuit> no i mean you send the mined block to the client via rpc?
45 2011-03-12 00:31:24 <slush> yes
46 2011-03-12 00:31:25 <BlueMatt> ;;seen tcatm
47 2011-03-12 00:31:26 <gribble> tcatm was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 11 hours, 7 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <tcatm> better install a backup software
48 2011-03-12 00:31:44 <phantomcircuit> slush, doing anything else with rpc at the same time? because rpc is single threaded it could take a while
49 2011-03-12 00:32:02 <slush> nothing special, just few hundred requests per second ;)
50 2011-03-12 00:32:11 <phantomcircuit> slush, also the tx's are verified when the block is added, takes about 3ms/input
51 2011-03-12 00:32:45 <phantomcircuit> eh why so many requests via rpc?
52 2011-03-12 00:32:51 <slush> because of pool?
53 2011-03-12 00:32:57 <slush> No, delay is not done here
54 2011-03-12 00:33:29 <phantomcircuit> I thought you were running a proxy for the miners
55 2011-03-12 00:33:41 <slush> yes, pool is proxy around bitcoind
56 2011-03-12 00:34:03 <slush> so current ~500requests/second is balanced between bitcoin daemons
57 2011-03-12 00:34:24 <phantomcircuit> oh
58 2011-03-12 00:34:27 mmarker has quit (Quit: mmarker)
59 2011-03-12 00:34:58 <phantomcircuit> yeah that'd do it
60 2011-03-12 00:35:11 <phantomcircuit> you're lucky it ever responds actually
61 2011-03-12 00:35:55 <slush> :) I did some performance tests. bitcoind is definitely bottleneck, but it is still enough
62 2011-03-12 00:36:05 <phantomcircuit> yeah no kidding
63 2011-03-12 00:36:33 <phantomcircuit> if/when i finish my client i could implement a threaded rpc interface
64 2011-03-12 00:36:55 <phantomcircuit> it would be ridiculous fast
65 2011-03-12 00:36:56 <slush> you're writing it in python, right?
66 2011-03-12 00:37:03 <phantomcircuit> yeah
67 2011-03-12 00:37:18 <phantomcircuit> and yes i know about the GIL
68 2011-03-12 00:37:20 <slush> I'm writing some functionality around artforz half-node
69 2011-03-12 00:37:34 <slush> works fine :)
70 2011-03-12 00:37:35 <phantomcircuit> well i've got most of a full node
71 2011-03-12 00:37:52 <phantomcircuit> i need tx handling and to smooth out some rough edges
72 2011-03-12 00:38:15 <phantomcircuit> also it would be nice if cpython didn't have a global lock
73 2011-03-12 00:38:16 <phantomcircuit> xD
74 2011-03-12 00:38:26 <slush> I'm looking forward full python implementation a lot
75 2011-03-12 00:38:41 <phantomcircuit> but it doesn't really matter most of the performance critical code will be in crypto modules anyways
76 2011-03-12 00:38:42 <slush> gil is hell, but I learned how to live with it
77 2011-03-12 00:39:34 <phantomcircuit> im currently distracted by paying work though
78 2011-03-12 00:39:35 <phantomcircuit> xD
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94 2011-03-12 01:07:07 <BlueMatt> please vote for UPnP on/off by default: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4392.0
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99 2011-03-12 01:09:14 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, UPnP isn't the right solution
100 2011-03-12 01:09:21 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: how so?
101 2011-03-12 01:09:35 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, the p2p network is basically a message passing scheme built on top of TCP
102 2011-03-12 01:09:47 <phantomcircuit> UDP + STUN is the correct approach
103 2011-03-12 01:10:03 <phantomcircuit> although i guess that would mean all tx/blocks have to be < 64k
104 2011-03-12 01:10:20 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that is no longer a good p2p network where each node can accept incomming connections
105 2011-03-12 01:10:41 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, uhm i take it you dont know what STUN is
106 2011-03-12 01:10:58 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: stun is considered a security risk for some
107 2011-03-12 01:10:59 <Avemo> I do not, tell us
108 2011-03-12 01:11:06 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: and blocked by some routers, including mine. by default
109 2011-03-12 01:11:17 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: and sorry, I had forgotten what it was
110 2011-03-12 01:13:12 <phantomcircuit> eh
111 2011-03-12 01:13:17 <phantomcircuit> the fuck kind of router blocks STUN
112 2011-03-12 01:13:22 <phantomcircuit> well whatever
113 2011-03-12 01:13:38 <phantomcircuit> it would be trivial to mangle STUN and setup custom STUN servers
114 2011-03-12 01:13:42 <jgarzik> I thought STUN used the same method as a DNS lookup, when using UDP
115 2011-03-12 01:13:51 <jgarzik> router creates a port, and then you can use that for incoming
116 2011-03-12 01:13:55 <jgarzik> port mapping
117 2011-03-12 01:13:56 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: stun might be good, but changing the entire protocol for it would be a pita
118 2011-03-12 01:14:20 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: plus upnp is more standard anyway
119 2011-03-12 01:14:44 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, no stun uses DNS to find a default STUN server
120 2011-03-12 01:15:35 <Diablo-D3> [08:13:15] <phantomcircuit> the fuck kind of router blocks STUN
121 2011-03-12 01:15:36 <Diablo-D3> uh
122 2011-03-12 01:15:47 <Diablo-D3> any router that wishes to be disconnected from the internet
123 2011-03-12 01:15:50 da2ce7 has joined
124 2011-03-12 01:15:53 <Diablo-D3> its a required internet RFC.
125 2011-03-12 01:16:03 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 1000000
126 2011-03-12 01:16:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 13.2008919704 BTC per day and 0.550037165432 BTC per hour.
127 2011-03-12 01:16:04 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: the same method of creating router port<->behind-NAT host association on the router, with STUN protocol and DNS protocol
128 2011-03-12 01:16:19 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 1000000 1w
129 2011-03-12 01:16:19 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
130 2011-03-12 01:16:23 m86 has joined
131 2011-03-12 01:16:27 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 1000000, 1w
132 2011-03-12 01:16:27 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
133 2011-03-12 01:16:31 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
134 2011-03-12 01:16:33 Slix` has joined
135 2011-03-12 01:16:33 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113199 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1712 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 14 hours, 13 minutes, and 52 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66844.63923301
136 2011-03-12 01:16:35 <Diablo-D3> if you block STUN and TURN, _important every day use apps break, period_
137 2011-03-12 01:16:40 <da2ce7> ;;bc,help
138 2011-03-12 01:16:41 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
139 2011-03-12 01:16:48 <BlueMatt> oops ok, I had stun completely confused with something else...
140 2011-03-12 01:16:55 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
141 2011-03-12 01:17:04 <jgarzik> you send a UDP packet out to a server (STUN or DNS), and that gives you a port on the router
142 2011-03-12 01:17:07 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gend 1000000 1w
143 2011-03-12 01:17:07 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
144 2011-03-12 01:17:14 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gend
145 2011-03-12 01:17:14 <gribble> (bc,gend <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The expected generation output, at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [math calc 50*24*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per day and [math calc 50*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per hour.".
146 2011-03-12 01:17:17 <jgarzik> sigh
147 2011-03-12 01:17:21 <jgarzik> gribble needs his own channel
148 2011-03-12 01:17:29 <Diablo-D3> STUN and TURN are the standardized UDP NAT traversal protocols
149 2011-03-12 01:17:35 <BlueMatt> or people need to learn to use /msg gribble
150 2011-03-12 01:34:15 <blarzong> ahoy
151 2011-03-12 01:34:16 <blarzong> bitcoin rules
152 2011-03-12 01:34:52 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: UDP is not the right solution either
153 2011-03-12 01:34:57 <luke-jr> the right solution is IPv6
154 2011-03-12 01:35:12 <luke-jr> UPnP is the closest thing to the right solution, as long as you're using IPv4 and NAT
155 2011-03-12 01:37:04 <Avemo> and as long as it is off by default
156 2011-03-12 01:37:44 <blarzong> ;;bc,btcusd
157 2011-03-12 01:37:45 <gribble> Error: "bc,btcusd" is not a valid command.
158 2011-03-12 01:52:14 <luke-jr> Avemo: it should definitely be on by default
159 2011-03-12 01:53:53 <Avemo> luke-jr read this http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4392.msg64239#msg64239 and think again
160 2011-03-12 01:55:08 <luke-jr> Avemo: reads like nonsense
161 2011-03-12 01:55:35 <Avemo> than I have nothing more to say
162 2011-03-12 01:59:47 <blarzong> beep you've got coin!
163 2011-03-12 02:01:47 dust1 has left ()
164 2011-03-12 02:02:07 <theorbtwo> Hi, guys. I'm just getting into bitcoin and, coincidentally, I'm just starting on setting up a business, and I'm pondering accepting bitcoin for payment.
165 2011-03-12 02:02:18 <blarzong> cool
166 2011-03-12 02:02:39 <theorbtwo> Is this the right channel? Is there a relevant FAQ I should be reading on best practices for accepting bitcoins?
167 2011-03-12 02:02:59 <theorbtwo> For example, how many confirmations should I wait for on payments?
168 2011-03-12 02:04:35 <blarzong> 6 is considered very good but it could take some time
169 2011-03-12 02:05:27 <blarzong> you could also wait till it appears in the next block
170 2011-03-12 02:06:12 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
171 2011-03-12 02:06:34 <blarzong> 10 minutes per confirmation
172 2011-03-12 02:07:21 <theorbtwo> Is there a formula of some sort for number of confirmations versus risk of repudation?
173 2011-03-12 02:07:35 <theorbtwo> Ah. Confirmation isn't the same as appearing in a block?
174 2011-03-12 02:07:41 <blarzong> it is
175 2011-03-12 02:09:05 <blarzong> yeah
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178 2011-03-12 02:13:33 <blarzong> ;;bc,stats
179 2011-03-12 02:13:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113202 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1709 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 14 hours, 8 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66762.55242418
180 2011-03-12 02:14:39 zylche has joined
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182 2011-03-12 02:14:48 <theorbtwo> So, in short, I generate a new bitcoin address for each payment, and wait for the total of all transactions into that account with at least N confirmations is at least val BTC. (We can expect N confirmations to take n*10 minutes from when the user actually sent the money.)
183 2011-03-12 02:14:55 <theorbtwo> Sound about right?
184 2011-03-12 02:15:09 <blarzong> yeah
185 2011-03-12 02:15:51 <theorbtwo> Great. Now I have to figure out how to implment that (shouldn't be too bad, if I accept polling the bitcoind), and how to decide how much to charge in bitcoins.
186 2011-03-12 02:16:44 bitjet has quit (Quit: Page closed)
187 2011-03-12 02:17:21 <mizerydearia> ranking is improved at http://witcoin.com/ - how does it look?
188 2011-03-12 02:18:45 <blarzong> an attacker would need around 76,000 quad core xeons to remove your transaction
189 2011-03-12 02:19:21 <blarzong> n * 76,000 pc's for each confirmation you get
190 2011-03-12 02:19:38 <blarzong> so already 1 confirmation is very strong
191 2011-03-12 02:19:53 <theorbtwo> Er, right. So it sounds like probably 1 is plenty.
192 2011-03-12 02:20:35 noagendamarket has joined
193 2011-03-12 02:20:48 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: I would recommend you check out nearlyfreespeech.net
194 2011-03-12 02:20:54 <subpar> has difficulty dropped in the past?
195 2011-03-12 02:20:59 <theorbtwo> Or, possibly, make the number of confirmations on a transaction proportional to the number of coins it contains, with a minimum of 1.
196 2011-03-12 02:21:14 <blarzong> yeah
197 2011-03-12 02:21:44 <blarzong> what are you selling?
198 2011-03-12 02:22:36 <theorbtwo> Custom 3d prints.
199 2011-03-12 02:22:48 <blarzong> cool
200 2011-03-12 02:23:13 <theorbtwo> Thanks.
201 2011-03-12 02:24:27 <luke-jr> 3D prints?
202 2011-03-12 02:24:30 <luke-jr> what are those?
203 2011-03-12 02:24:53 <luke-jr> like, can I print a bunch of Tonal rulers?
204 2011-03-12 02:25:20 <theorbtwo> luke-jr: You give us a 3D CAD file describing an object. We print it out of plastic, and send it to you in the mail.
205 2011-03-12 02:25:31 <luke-jr> CAD? :/
206 2011-03-12 02:25:42 <luke-jr> how about just SVG? :P
207 2011-03-12 02:26:00 <luke-jr> (your competitors do SVG)
208 2011-03-12 02:26:32 <theorbtwo> luke-jr: Well, SVG is a two-dimensional format. If you just want something that shape of constant height, sure, we can do SVG.
209 2011-03-12 02:26:38 <luke-jr> only reason I haven't done it with a competitor yet, is because I'm not confident enough in producing a SVG that has the right dimensions
210 2011-03-12 02:26:57 <luke-jr> well, I was thinking bump-map style
211 2011-03-12 02:27:03 <theorbtwo> What is a tonal ruler?
212 2011-03-12 02:27:14 <luke-jr> flat on one side, curved on the other, with indents for stuff
213 2011-03-12 02:27:21 <luke-jr> a ruler, with tonal units
214 2011-03-12 02:28:32 <luke-jr> IIRC it would be about 6 inches long, divided into 16 segments
215 2011-03-12 02:28:40 * luke-jr needs to find his tonal book
216 2011-03-12 02:29:32 <mizerydearia> MagicalTux, Hiya. Do you live in Japan?
217 2011-03-12 02:32:09 <luke-jr> he does
218 2011-03-12 02:34:48 <genjix> mizerydearia: yes he does
219 2011-03-12 02:35:53 <genjix> didnt see luke's reply :p
220 2011-03-12 02:36:12 <blarzong> sup
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224 2011-03-12 02:40:08 <genjix> luke-jr: im doing a few things... but when i cycle back around to spesmilo, i'm going to change some things :p
225 2011-03-12 02:40:40 <genjix> like there's going to be a global object called Borg
226 2011-03-12 02:40:45 <theorbtwo> luke-jr: My googling is failing. Can you give me a rough SVG, and some explination, or a web page?
227 2011-03-12 02:41:09 <da2ce7> is themagicaltux the only bitcoiner from japan? or do we have others?
228 2011-03-12 02:41:12 <genjix> we can also change that name if you wish
229 2011-03-12 02:41:25 <genjix> da2ce7: i think so. he told me his exchange has had 0 volume
230 2011-03-12 02:41:35 <da2ce7> :(
231 2011-03-12 02:42:09 <da2ce7> but didn't themagicaltux by mtgox?
232 2011-03-12 02:42:19 <Tril> theorbtwo: I think you are looking for this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_BitCoin
233 2011-03-12 02:44:35 <blarzong> werrd'
234 2011-03-12 02:45:39 <blarzong> mars needs moms
235 2011-03-12 02:46:21 * da2ce7 thinks if you want to use base 16 for bitcoin, by all means... however most of the world uses base-10 so prob should encourage that to be the default.
236 2011-03-12 02:46:42 <Tril> it is
237 2011-03-12 02:46:49 <luke-jr> genjix: ⦠why?
238 2011-03-12 02:47:17 <blarzong> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/03/p2p-api-discovered-in-latest-b.php google is adding a p2p api to chromium
239 2011-03-12 02:47:19 <luke-jr> Tril: no, he isn't.
240 2011-03-12 02:47:34 <blarzong> that could enable bitcoin for the masses
241 2011-03-12 02:47:36 <Tril> my bad.
242 2011-03-12 02:49:42 <luke-jr> theorbtwo: http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&cad=0_1#v=twopage&q&f=false -- go there, and click back 1 page
243 2011-03-12 02:49:51 <luke-jr> eg, to page 0
244 2011-03-12 02:50:04 <luke-jr> it should have pictures of 2 rulers
245 2011-03-12 02:50:18 <luke-jr> more like 4 kindof
246 2011-03-12 02:50:58 xelister has joined
247 2011-03-12 02:51:09 <xelister> 5 BTC for getting my ubuntu to boot
248 2011-03-12 02:51:38 <validus> needs a lil more info than that
249 2011-03-12 02:51:39 <luke-jr> xelister: what's wrong?
250 2011-03-12 02:51:47 <xelister> apparently ubuntu sucks epic cocks and sometimes failt to boot, esp when using 2 harddrives - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+bug/705988
251 2011-03-12 02:51:58 <xelister> fuck ubuntu
252 2011-03-12 02:52:01 <validus> hehe the fun
253 2011-03-12 02:52:09 <validus> get mint exlister
254 2011-03-12 02:52:13 <validus> see if itll do it. also what pc are you on?
255 2011-03-12 02:52:24 <validus> some things require boot options to boot proper
256 2011-03-12 02:52:41 <luke-jr> lol
257 2011-03-12 02:52:46 <xelister> well read the bug report
258 2011-03-12 02:52:47 <luke-jr> get Debian or Gentoo
259 2011-03-12 02:53:05 <xelister> fucking grub is trying to do some needless shit and it causes it to fail
260 2011-03-12 02:55:49 <genjix> why is it so fashionable to hate on ubuntu?
261 2011-03-12 02:55:58 <genjix> im super happy canonical made linux for the masses
262 2011-03-12 02:56:00 <validus> i dont like the way ti handles things
263 2011-03-12 02:56:07 <validus> ive had 7 install discs fail
264 2011-03-12 02:56:17 <validus> my reasons for hating crapbuntu is a lil more than the os itself
265 2011-03-12 02:56:33 <genjix> i've had 0 fail. been using it for 5 years
266 2011-03-12 02:56:51 <validus> ive had install fail. user/pass fail. no boot. no boot. install fail again
267 2011-03-12 02:57:00 <validus> their trashing gnome cuz they couldnt get their bugs fixed and make their own gui
268 2011-03-12 02:57:11 <validus> they are more ample to release another new version # than fix their bugs that are already present in the current
269 2011-03-12 02:57:25 <validus> i know quite a few dev testers for ubuntu and they say the same exact thing. itll work with some tweaqking
270 2011-03-12 02:57:27 <validus> tweaking*
271 2011-03-12 02:57:29 Cusipzzz has joined
272 2011-03-12 02:57:52 <validus> then you got every noob in the world on it thats fine. but automated penguins should be when you learned how to use console and actually know what your doing. not just automatic everything and watch them yell at you saying this is like Dos
273 2011-03-12 02:58:07 <xelister> genjix: ubuntu is full of fail
274 2011-03-12 02:58:08 <validus> thats why i went to mint. 0 problems. based off debian and ubuntu. can use same repositories. i like it
275 2011-03-12 02:58:36 <blarzong> o, ndl
276 2011-03-12 02:58:37 <genjix> i thought mint is just ubuntu but with flash+stuff installed
277 2011-03-12 02:58:39 <validus> still automates a lot but i have more control
278 2011-03-12 02:58:43 <genjix> ubuntu does that now
279 2011-03-12 02:58:46 <validus> no its a lil more
280 2011-03-12 02:58:51 <xelister> flash is gay
281 2011-03-12 02:58:53 <validus> i wont goto ubuntu ever again i really cant stand it
282 2011-03-12 02:59:02 <validus> if im doing vps's i rather have centos on it
283 2011-03-12 02:59:06 <validus> and i really dont care for centos
284 2011-03-12 02:59:14 <genjix> xelister: i didnt know software had a sexual preference
285 2011-03-12 02:59:25 <validus> espicially wiht the lftp ssl seg fault error i keep getting and id ont know why
286 2011-03-12 02:59:32 <xelister> genjix: it does since the time when Flash was released
287 2011-03-12 02:59:51 <validus> however t he 64 bit version of flash is working great in windows and linux both
288 2011-03-12 02:59:58 <validus> i havent really had any problems cept for a few minor occurences
289 2011-03-12 03:00:29 <validus> like if i had youtube maximized and after the video was done i clicked one of the others that came up itd restart the video i jsut watched instead of playing the new one
290 2011-03-12 03:00:30 <validus> lol
291 2011-03-12 03:01:28 <luke-jr> genjix: Ubuntu hasn't booted on any of my PCs, ever
292 2011-03-12 03:01:30 <validus> and mint has to be more like i didnt have ubuntu's ssl remote exploit on my mint box
293 2011-03-12 03:01:49 <validus> most ubuntu needs boot options to boot proper on alot of things and they have weird exploits that come out and you better be on top of you game with it
294 2011-03-12 03:01:49 <luke-jr> genjix: I managed to get it installed on a friend's once, but found it impossible to get wifi to work
295 2011-03-12 03:02:00 <luke-jr> actually, 3 friend's computers
296 2011-03-12 03:02:02 <validus> hehe the wifi drivers are fun
297 2011-03-12 03:02:04 <luke-jr> it installed, but wifi never worked
298 2011-03-12 03:02:11 <luke-jr> validus: only 1 of the cases was driver-related
299 2011-03-12 03:02:14 <validus> i think mint comes with a kind of modified wifi driver to make it work better
300 2011-03-12 03:02:19 <luke-jr> the long-standing problem is networkmanager never working
301 2011-03-12 03:02:27 <validus> not for certain on this as i dont use wifi
302 2011-03-12 03:02:39 <validus> its the drivers not the distro
303 2011-03-12 03:02:44 <validus> but sometimes it is the distro
304 2011-03-12 03:02:51 <luke-jr> nah, drivers are fine
305 2011-03-12 03:02:57 <validus> ive had it fail so many times i just cringe at the mention of the name ubuntu
306 2011-03-12 03:03:00 <luke-jr> Ubuntu just manages to screw up Linux
307 2011-03-12 03:03:02 <validus> its african word meaning piece of shit
308 2011-03-12 03:03:12 <validus> i despise that distro
309 2011-03-12 03:03:28 <luke-jr> theorbtwo: so� :p
310 2011-03-12 03:03:31 <validus> you wanna see something funny. give an ubuntu user a slackware machine
311 2011-03-12 03:03:35 <genjix> weird... i've never had issues
312 2011-03-12 03:03:42 <luke-jr> genjix: btw, I just fixed I think all the outstanding bugs with Spesmilo :p
313 2011-03-12 03:03:44 <validus> fresh install with no net setup
314 2011-03-12 03:03:48 <validus> oh and the joy begins lol
315 2011-03-12 03:03:51 <luke-jr> genjix: so what's this Borg bs?
316 2011-03-12 03:03:57 <validus> no automated penguines WTF!!!!
317 2011-03-12 03:04:03 <genjix> luke-jr: what's the deal with this new wallet protocol?
318 2011-03-12 03:04:15 <genjix> i see lots of text but nothing concrete
319 2011-03-12 03:04:22 <luke-jr> genjix: concrete comes after text
320 2011-03-12 03:04:27 <luke-jr> genjix: that's the right way to design protocols
321 2011-03-12 03:04:33 <validus> but if ubuntu works for ya then fucking a. to each their own
322 2011-03-12 03:04:40 <validus> im not one to trash someone for using a different distro
323 2011-03-12 03:04:44 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development
324 2011-03-12 03:04:46 <genjix> :)
325 2011-03-12 03:04:52 <validus> just hope to god your keeping up with security updates and not just relying on update manager
326 2011-03-12 03:05:05 <luke-jr> genjix: that's software development, not protocol development
327 2011-03-12 03:05:13 <genjix> luke-jr: Now is better than never. Although never is often better than *right* now. If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
328 2011-03-12 03:05:19 <luke-jr> genjix: ALL standards are worked out on paper, before implementation begins
329 2011-03-12 03:05:42 <genjix> luke-jr: so.... you want to stick with json ... or?
330 2011-03-12 03:05:47 <luke-jr> genjix: I don't pretend to be familiar with all the problems with JSON-RPC
331 2011-03-12 03:05:57 <luke-jr> no, all the JSON implementations seem to have bugs of some kind or another
332 2011-03-12 03:06:00 <genjix> i mean will it be json-rpc 2.0 or something else?
333 2011-03-12 03:06:03 <genjix> ok good
334 2011-03-12 03:06:09 <luke-jr> IMO, protobuf is the way to go
335 2011-03-12 03:06:13 <Diablo-D3> okay
336 2011-03-12 03:06:14 <Diablo-D3> you know what
337 2011-03-12 03:06:15 <luke-jr> but I'm not in charge
338 2011-03-12 03:06:16 <luke-jr> :p
339 2011-03-12 03:06:20 <Diablo-D3> one more fucking word about this fucking shit
340 2011-03-12 03:06:24 <Diablo-D3> and Im not coding this shit anymore
341 2011-03-12 03:06:30 <genjix> i see
342 2011-03-12 03:06:31 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: good, nobody wants Java crud
343 2011-03-12 03:06:39 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: fuck you
344 2011-03-12 03:06:41 <Diablo-D3> and go fuck yourself
345 2011-03-12 03:06:46 Spenvo has joined
346 2011-03-12 03:06:52 <genjix> Diablo-D3: ?
347 2011-03-12 03:06:55 <luke-jr> /ignore Diablo-D3
348 2011-03-12 03:07:00 <luke-jr> genjix: he's a troll
349 2011-03-12 03:07:06 <Spenvo> lol
350 2011-03-12 03:07:08 <genjix> no, tell me
351 2011-03-12 03:07:13 <Diablo-D3> genjix: Im getting tired of luke-jr trolling about jsonrpc
352 2011-03-12 03:07:16 <genjix> what's he talking about?
353 2011-03-12 03:07:19 <Diablo-D3> it exists, its what Satoshi chose, deal with it
354 2011-03-12 03:07:23 <genjix> Diablo-D3: but json-rpc sucks
355 2011-03-12 03:07:23 <Diablo-D3> no more fucking bitching
356 2011-03-12 03:07:28 <luke-jr> genjix: he thinks Java and HTTP REST JSON crap is god
357 2011-03-12 03:07:32 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yes it does, but guess what: IT WORKS
358 2011-03-12 03:07:39 <genjix> no it doesn't.
359 2011-03-12 03:07:45 <Diablo-D3> the whole SOAP style of shit sucks
360 2011-03-12 03:07:49 <genjix> it's broken in python/perl/php
361 2011-03-12 03:07:54 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no its not.
362 2011-03-12 03:07:58 <genjix> yes it is.
363 2011-03-12 03:08:02 <Diablo-D3> no, it really isnt.
364 2011-03-12 03:08:07 <genjix> and it doesn't have persistance either
365 2011-03-12 03:08:11 <genjix> so i cannot pull updates
366 2011-03-12 03:08:15 <Diablo-D3> persistance of what?
367 2011-03-12 03:08:16 <genjix> and maintain a session
368 2011-03-12 03:08:17 <Diablo-D3> its over HTTP.
369 2011-03-12 03:08:23 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: look at this crap and tell me Bitcoind's JSON-RPC doesn't suck: http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo/blobs/master/cashier.py#line247
370 2011-03-12 03:08:30 * Spenvo joining another irc
371 2011-03-12 03:08:42 <Diablo-D3> what luke-jr keeps rattling on about HAS NOTHIGN TO DO WITH WHAT HE THINKS ITS DOES
372 2011-03-12 03:08:47 <genjix> yeah but say i want to see all new transactions
373 2011-03-12 03:08:49 <Diablo-D3> PROTOBUF IS A SERIALIZATION LIBRARY
374 2011-03-12 03:08:56 <Diablo-D3> ITS NOT A NETWORK PROTOCOL
375 2011-03-12 03:09:10 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: so is JSON, idiot
376 2011-03-12 03:09:59 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yes, but luke-jr doesnt understand that this problem has already been solved about 50 times
377 2011-03-12 03:10:03 <luke-jr> genjix: I should abstract the polling hacks⦠:p
378 2011-03-12 03:10:08 <Diablo-D3> yet hes proposing ANOTHER one.
379 2011-03-12 03:10:26 <Diablo-D3> this problem has already been solved _internet wide_ _for all languages_ _for every single kind of app_
380 2011-03-12 03:10:26 <genjix> luke-jr: hey did you say you're a perl programmer?
381 2011-03-12 03:10:32 <Diablo-D3> hes not a perl programmer
382 2011-03-12 03:10:38 <luke-jr> genjix: yeah, I know Perlâ¦
383 2011-03-12 03:10:46 <genjix> k
384 2011-03-12 03:10:48 <Diablo-D3> I refuse to have him be a programmer of a language I enjoy
385 2011-03-12 03:10:49 <luke-jr> why? :p
386 2011-03-12 03:10:50 <Diablo-D3> we dont need his kind
387 2011-03-12 03:11:01 <genjix> Diablo-D3: cmon dude... room for all types :)
388 2011-03-12 03:11:12 <luke-jr> genjix: just ignore him :p
389 2011-03-12 03:11:15 <genjix> anyway perl sucks
390 2011-03-12 03:11:17 <luke-jr> LOL
391 2011-03-12 03:11:18 <genjix> hahaha
392 2011-03-12 03:11:26 <Diablo-D3> see, the problem here is
393 2011-03-12 03:11:27 <luke-jr> Perl beats Python hands down
394 2011-03-12 03:11:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr isnt a programmer
395 2011-03-12 03:11:32 <Spenvo> D3 etiquette?
396 2011-03-12 03:11:35 <genjix> Diablo-D3: so what do you propose instead of json-rpc?
397 2011-03-12 03:11:55 <jgarzik> "ALL standards are worked out on paper, before implementation begins"
398 2011-03-12 03:11:59 <jgarzik> thank god that's not true :)
399 2011-03-12 03:11:59 <Diablo-D3> genjix: I propose we use an existing system that works for everybody else and is supported in every language.
400 2011-03-12 03:12:18 <luke-jr> jgarzik: example implementations don't count :P
401 2011-03-12 03:12:35 <genjix> i say just throw something out there
402 2011-03-12 03:12:48 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: good. suggest one. I haven't heard it
403 2011-03-12 03:12:49 <Diablo-D3> genjix: websockets + json is what I suggested, but Im also open to anything else that isnt a pile of shit
404 2011-03-12 03:12:56 <jgarzik> luke-jr: IETF is an implementation-first organization. The internet was built on "write the spec AFTER the software works"
405 2011-03-12 03:12:59 <luke-jr> C doesn't support websockets or JSON
406 2011-03-12 03:13:05 <luke-jr> jgarzik: oh?
407 2011-03-12 03:13:10 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr, as usual, is an ignorant fuck.
408 2011-03-12 03:13:23 <Diablo-D3> and C supports _text_ you fucking idiot.
409 2011-03-12 03:13:28 <Diablo-D3> thats all json is. its text.
410 2011-03-12 03:13:36 <Diablo-D3> I can write a json parser in C in like 50 lines.
411 2011-03-12 03:14:15 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I was thinking more W3c, but I guess thinking about the IETF stuff you have a point
412 2011-03-12 03:14:21 sshc_ is now known as sshc
413 2011-03-12 03:14:34 <genjix> rpc.cpp is going to keep growing. it already takes an age to compile.
414 2011-03-12 03:14:39 <Netsniper> http://www.geekfill.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/who_is_at_the_door.gif
415 2011-03-12 03:14:44 <luke-jr> in that case, maybe I'll throw together something stupid and flawed in Perl and get people to complain about that
416 2011-03-12 03:14:59 <jgarzik> mtve's perl client works well
417 2011-03-12 03:15:10 <Diablo-D3> so, whatever
418 2011-03-12 03:15:10 <jgarzik> more advanced than python efforts or bitcoinj
419 2011-03-12 03:15:12 <luke-jr> yeah, I pinged mtve the other day but he didn't respond
420 2011-03-12 03:15:13 <Diablo-D3> I dont fucking care anymore
421 2011-03-12 03:15:19 <luke-jr> jgarzik: know if he has a repo anywhere?
422 2011-03-12 03:15:23 <Diablo-D3> I guess all projects die eventually this way
423 2011-03-12 03:15:30 <Diablo-D3> idiots come in, bitch about shit, and piss off all the developers
424 2011-03-12 03:15:33 <Diablo-D3> no wonder satoshi quit
425 2011-03-12 03:15:37 <Diablo-D3> I dont blame him
426 2011-03-12 03:15:40 <genjix> luke-jr: so say i have a list in protobuf
427 2011-03-12 03:15:46 <genjix> and i add a new item to the list
428 2011-03-12 03:15:54 <genjix> will subscribed apps get the update?
429 2011-03-12 03:16:04 <Diablo-D3> genjix: protobuf is not a network protocol.
430 2011-03-12 03:16:08 <genjix> and is there a hook for them to update internally?
431 2011-03-12 03:16:08 <luke-jr> genjix: protobuf isn't a protocol, as Diablo-D3 mentioned
432 2011-03-12 03:16:18 <Diablo-D3> which is why luke-jr 's idea fails
433 2011-03-12 03:16:23 <Diablo-D3> he doesnt suggest any network protocol.
434 2011-03-12 03:16:29 <genjix> oh
435 2011-03-12 03:16:32 <luke-jr> genjix: it's more like a binary JSON equivalent
436 2011-03-12 03:16:43 <luke-jr> except efficient and doesn't have a ton of buggy implementations
437 2011-03-12 03:16:50 <genjix> well cool. this is like 30%
438 2011-03-12 03:16:53 <Diablo-D3> its not efficient
439 2011-03-12 03:17:06 <Diablo-D3> all good serializer impls of any kind are all in the same ballpark.
440 2011-03-12 03:17:07 <jgarzik> not really. protobuf data structures are not very dynamic in -structure-, but JSON permits such.
441 2011-03-12 03:17:07 <genjix> does it have to be efficient?
442 2011-03-12 03:17:19 puddinpop has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
443 2011-03-12 03:17:37 <luke-jr> jgarzik: they're dynamic enough for a standardized structure to be developed, and extensions on top of that
444 2011-03-12 03:17:57 <Diablo-D3> protobuf, thrift, kyro, jackson, avro
445 2011-03-12 03:18:01 <Diablo-D3> they're all pretty fast.
446 2011-03-12 03:18:05 <luke-jr> genjix: probably not. the only real reason I don't like JSON is its implementations
447 2011-03-12 03:18:17 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yeah, fuck you/.
448 2011-03-12 03:18:19 <jgarzik> dynamic == changeable at runtime
449 2011-03-12 03:18:27 <Diablo-D3> json is implemented well in almost every language.
450 2011-03-12 03:18:34 <Diablo-D3> you're just too fucking retarded to find a good impl.
451 2011-03-12 03:18:41 <Diablo-D3> and you're also too fucking retarded to code your own.
452 2011-03-12 03:18:44 <genjix> find one for php
453 2011-03-12 03:18:45 <luke-jr> jgarzik: in that sense, protobuf does fail
454 2011-03-12 03:18:56 * Spenvo glad he changed to a diff irc
455 2011-03-12 03:18:57 * jgarzik is amazed that FairUser and geebus are using my poold.py pool server in production
456 2011-03-12 03:19:00 <jgarzik> that takes balls :)
457 2011-03-12 03:19:02 <luke-jr> lol
458 2011-03-12 03:19:03 <Diablo-D3> genjix: doesnt php have one built into the language?
459 2011-03-12 03:19:20 <genjix> Diablo-D3: doesn't support a different type for nums
460 2011-03-12 03:19:22 <genjix> it uses float
461 2011-03-12 03:19:28 <Diablo-D3> thats because bitcoin is wrong
462 2011-03-12 03:19:36 <genjix> i think so too.
463 2011-03-12 03:19:37 <Diablo-D3> it should list money values in ubtc
464 2011-03-12 03:19:45 <luke-jr> uBTC is 100 base units
465 2011-03-12 03:19:46 <genjix> or as strings
466 2011-03-12 03:20:02 <luke-jr> learn your SI if you love it so much
467 2011-03-12 03:20:09 <genjix> using floats for financial units in any way is atrocious.
468 2011-03-12 03:20:15 <Diablo-D3> genjix: its illegal.
469 2011-03-12 03:20:21 <Diablo-D3> if its actually money, its illegal.
470 2011-03-12 03:20:23 <genjix> i did not know that.
471 2011-03-12 03:20:29 <Diablo-D3> there is actually laws about this in many countries.
472 2011-03-12 03:20:32 <blarzong> greetings
473 2011-03-12 03:20:41 <Diablo-D3> btc isnt money, so we're "fine"
474 2011-03-12 03:20:43 <Diablo-D3> but the thing is
475 2011-03-12 03:20:57 <genjix> in any case, Python's JSON-RPC also doesn't support using decimal (but normal json.loads does have it as an option)
476 2011-03-12 03:20:58 <Diablo-D3> first rule of converting fixed point numerical representations to a human readable text format
477 2011-03-12 03:21:05 <Diablo-D3> scale it up so the decimal is gone
478 2011-03-12 03:21:09 <genjix> yep
479 2011-03-12 03:21:10 <Diablo-D3> and put that in your fucking API docks.
480 2011-03-12 03:21:52 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: and no, microbtc you idiot
481 2011-03-12 03:21:58 <genjix> the other 2 bad things about the json is a) extending/working with it, is messy. b) no persistance.
482 2011-03-12 03:22:19 <Diablo-D3> genjix: persistence isnt what you think it is
483 2011-03-12 03:22:23 <Diablo-D3> thats part of the _network_ protocol.
484 2011-03-12 03:22:26 <genjix> microBTC = 10^-6
485 2011-03-12 03:22:38 <genjix> doesn't have to be.
486 2011-03-12 03:22:40 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yeah, but nano is too small.
487 2011-03-12 03:22:47 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: microBTC is 0.000001 BTC, idiot
488 2011-03-12 03:22:50 <Diablo-D3> and μBTC looks cool
489 2011-03-12 03:22:53 <genjix> for instance, the JSON could take a session ID
490 2011-03-12 03:23:04 <genjix> and then you query it for updates.
491 2011-03-12 03:23:04 <Diablo-D3> genjix: yes, but the issue is we cant push events
492 2011-03-12 03:23:13 <Diablo-D3> genjix: and theres nothing in bitcoin that requires sessions
493 2011-03-12 03:23:21 <genjix> listtransactions
494 2011-03-12 03:23:22 <Diablo-D3> and json already has request ids
495 2011-03-12 03:23:32 <Diablo-D3> bitcoind just doesnt use them
496 2011-03-12 03:23:39 <Diablo-D3> er, jsonrpc has them
497 2011-03-12 03:23:54 <Diablo-D3> ever wonder what the id: 1 was for? thats your request id.
498 2011-03-12 03:24:01 <Diablo-D3> it can be part of an ongoing session
499 2011-03-12 03:24:08 <Diablo-D3> but as I said, nothing in bitcoin is useful for this.
500 2011-03-12 03:24:14 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt magically give you push events
501 2011-03-12 03:24:23 <Diablo-D3> and forcing the server to remember the client state is inherently broken
502 2011-03-12 03:24:38 <genjix> why?
503 2011-03-12 03:24:40 <Diablo-D3> theres a reason why the internet moved from doing that on inherently stateless protocols
504 2011-03-12 03:24:56 <Diablo-D3> its too problematic and it makes it difficult for clusters to sync state
505 2011-03-12 03:25:05 <genjix> you don't need to sync state
506 2011-03-12 03:25:07 <Diablo-D3> its easier to make the client more intelligent and allow more flexible data queries to the server
507 2011-03-12 03:25:11 <luke-jr> genjix: discussing this with Diablo-D3 is a waste of time.
508 2011-03-12 03:25:17 <genjix> you could even use UDP
509 2011-03-12 03:25:25 <Diablo-D3> genjix: wrong layer.
510 2011-03-12 03:25:26 <genjix> timestamp + order + packet
511 2011-03-12 03:25:27 puddinpop has joined
512 2011-03-12 03:25:31 <luke-jr> â¦
513 2011-03-12 03:25:38 <luke-jr> genjix: UDP makes no guarantees you even get the packet
514 2011-03-12 03:25:42 <genjix> need no guarantee of sequence
515 2011-03-12 03:25:50 <genjix> i know
516 2011-03-12 03:25:50 <Diablo-D3> genjix: TCP/UDP -> application network protocol -> data serialization format.
517 2011-03-12 03:25:55 <luke-jr> genjix: I don't mean sequence.
518 2011-03-12 03:25:58 <Diablo-D3> genjix: its generally assumed we're using TCP.
519 2011-03-12 03:26:01 <luke-jr> genjix: I mean you might just NOT get it AT ALL
520 2011-03-12 03:26:10 <genjix> ok
521 2011-03-12 03:26:14 <Diablo-D3> genjix: we can use UDP only if our network protocol implements guaranteed UDP
522 2011-03-12 03:26:20 <genjix> i wasn't saying you should use UDP
523 2011-03-12 03:26:24 <Diablo-D3> and yes, there are such network protocols, its generally a waste
524 2011-03-12 03:26:33 <Diablo-D3> and implementing your own network protocol is generally retarded
525 2011-03-12 03:26:44 <genjix> not always, i can give a counter example
526 2011-03-12 03:27:02 <Diablo-D3> I said generally.
527 2011-03-12 03:27:09 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin's use of http is pretty much right on target for http.
528 2011-03-12 03:27:17 <genjix> yep. nice and simple.
529 2011-03-12 03:27:34 <Diablo-D3> theres no reason to switch out of the http family of network protocols
530 2011-03-12 03:27:49 <Diablo-D3> the problem is how we're formulating requests.
531 2011-03-12 03:28:06 <Diablo-D3> SOAP, ie, RPC, has been basically shunned my current generation enterprise coders because its fucking retarded
532 2011-03-12 03:28:09 <Diablo-D3> you have a url, use it.
533 2011-03-12 03:29:14 <Diablo-D3> json-rpc = http://url/ -> { method: "foo" } -> { error: "you suck" }
534 2011-03-12 03:30:00 <Diablo-D3> json rest = http://url/foo -> no body because its a get request -> http 4xx error code, msg body plain text "you suck"
535 2011-03-12 03:30:22 <Diablo-D3> json-rpc inherently doesnt play towards http's strenghts
536 2011-03-12 03:30:28 <Diablo-D3> thats the only big issue with it
537 2011-03-12 03:30:53 <Diablo-D3> http already does everything you need in a uni-directional protocol
538 2011-03-12 03:31:17 <Diablo-D3> and even if luke-jr gets his way with protobuf, a rest api still works the same way.
539 2011-03-12 03:31:43 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
540 2011-03-12 03:31:51 <Diablo-D3> http happily will send anything a mime-type can describe.
541 2011-03-12 03:32:02 <Diablo-D3> including unencoded binary
542 2011-03-12 03:32:52 <Diablo-D3> genjix: now, I suggest using json with rest because we already have all this json code that works fine
543 2011-03-12 03:33:03 BlueMatt has joined
544 2011-03-12 03:33:23 Bosma has joined
545 2011-03-12 03:33:33 <Diablo-D3> genjix: for any given bitcoin command, a comparable json rest api would output whats currently output as the result in the json rpc response
546 2011-03-12 03:34:06 <Diablo-D3> so instead of { "response": { "dongs" } } we just get { "dongs" }
547 2011-03-12 03:34:41 cosurgi has joined
548 2011-03-12 03:35:29 <genjix> ic
549 2011-03-12 03:35:40 <genjix> but isn't that problematic?
550 2011-03-12 03:36:04 <genjix> there are JSON-RPC libraries for most languages, but no JSON-REST APIs
551 2011-03-12 03:36:18 <genjix> although I do like REST
552 2011-03-12 03:36:53 <lfm> what? how do you have a library without an api?
553 2011-03-12 03:38:05 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: except that UNI-DIRECTIONAL IS THE PROBLEM
554 2011-03-12 03:38:05 <genjix> the json-rpc lib for python is very easy to use.
555 2011-03-12 03:40:43 Spenvo has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726])
556 2011-03-12 03:41:28 <blarzong> gark
557 2011-03-12 03:43:11 <blarzong> whatsenew
558 2011-03-12 03:43:25 <blarzong> json is nice
559 2011-03-12 03:44:09 <Diablo-D3> genjix: huh?
560 2011-03-12 03:44:16 <Diablo-D3> genjix: you dont make a REST library
561 2011-03-12 03:44:21 <genjix> what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrift_%28protocol%29 ?
562 2011-03-12 03:44:22 <Diablo-D3> genjix: its just the method of how you construct urls.
563 2011-03-12 03:44:35 <Diablo-D3> genjix: rest literally is using GET, PUT, and POST correctly in http.
564 2011-03-12 03:44:45 <Diablo-D3> with proper usage of urls.
565 2011-03-12 03:44:46 <mizerydearia> booo radiation in Japan http://www.businessinsider.com/fukushima-nuclear-plant-2011-3#ixzz1GJKHx9hB
566 2011-03-12 03:44:54 <Diablo-D3> and btw, most languages do NOT have a decent json-rpc lib
567 2011-03-12 03:45:03 <Diablo-D3> the correct way is to just do it yourself with a json lib
568 2011-03-12 03:45:08 <Diablo-D3> which is incredibly simple
569 2011-03-12 03:45:23 <Diablo-D3> genjix: thrift and protobuf are largely interchangable for what they do
570 2011-03-12 03:45:41 <Diablo-D3> genjix: they are java-centric (but impl for a shitload of language) object serializers.
571 2011-03-12 03:45:45 <Diablo-D3> they are not a network protocol
572 2011-03-12 03:45:53 <Diablo-D3> and its absolutely fucking overkill for what we're doing here.
573 2011-03-12 03:46:16 <mizerydearia> wow http://twitpic.com/48dazv
574 2011-03-12 03:47:13 <genjix> ic
575 2011-03-12 03:47:33 <Diablo-D3> the responses can be done entirely with maps, arrays, ints, and strings.
576 2011-03-12 03:47:36 <Diablo-D3> and lists.
577 2011-03-12 03:48:02 <Diablo-D3> (or whatever your language's equivs to these are)
578 2011-03-12 03:51:03 <nextnonce> Hi, new to bitcoin here. What are my options for accepting payment at my website?
579 2011-03-12 03:51:20 <mizerydearia> will post more to http://japan.witcoin.com/p/393/2011-Sendai-earthquake-and-tsunami
580 2011-03-12 03:52:17 <Diablo-D3> genjix: I dont know why people think they need a json-rpc library though
581 2011-03-12 03:52:28 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
582 2011-03-12 03:52:30 <lfm> nextnonce: is it for donations or is it a required payment
583 2011-03-12 03:52:34 <Diablo-D3> all you do is POST every single http response (no GET or PUT)
584 2011-03-12 03:52:44 <nextnonce> lfm: it's a required payment
585 2011-03-12 03:52:47 <Diablo-D3> and then construct the requests and read back the responses
586 2011-03-12 03:53:47 <Diablo-D3> the outer json for both is a Map<String, Object> (or, again, whatevers appropriate for your language)
587 2011-03-12 03:54:06 <Diablo-D3> request always has a method, params, and an id, the response always has a result, and error, or an id
588 2011-03-12 03:54:08 <lfm> nextnonce: not sure but you might wnat to check out the "button" that mybitcoin.com has made available.
589 2011-03-12 03:54:10 <Diablo-D3> s/or/and/
590 2011-03-12 03:54:53 <nextnonce> lfm: I've seen that. Glad to hear you mention it. Would you recommend mybitcoin? What other options are there?
591 2011-03-12 03:55:23 <Diablo-D3> method is always a string, id is always a number (although some idiots do put strings there too), error is a string, params is always an array, result is always whatever the result is supposed to be.
592 2011-03-12 03:55:50 <genjix> and there you go. you've become maintainer of the python json-rpc api
593 2011-03-12 03:55:55 <genjix> :)
594 2011-03-12 03:55:58 <Diablo-D3> well like I said
595 2011-03-12 03:56:00 <Diablo-D3> this shit isnt hard
596 2011-03-12 03:56:10 <lfm> mybitcoin.com seems fine to me although I guess some people dont trust it (dunno why). I dont run a web site so I dont really know of any other options cept roll your own
597 2011-03-12 03:56:21 <Diablo-D3> I read the spec for json-rpc and busted the world's stupidest json-rpc impl in like 25 lines of java
598 2011-03-12 03:56:43 <Diablo-D3> take 1 http client impl, 1 json impl, and glue them together.
599 2011-03-12 03:57:43 <nextnonce> lfm: as for rolling my own, bitcoind doesn't run well on CentOS :(
600 2011-03-12 03:59:09 <genjix> nextnonce: see the wiki
601 2011-03-12 03:59:15 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#Python
602 2011-03-12 03:59:43 <lfm> nextnonce: well if bitcoin(d) doent run for you I would think mybitcoin would be a good option. mtgox.com is another way to have an account without need for bitcoin(d) and I think mtgox has some sort of api you can roll your own for
603 2011-03-12 04:00:13 <Diablo-D3> genjix: but yeah, I dont like pythin
604 2011-03-12 04:00:20 <Diablo-D3> I think its a disgusting little language
605 2011-03-12 04:00:27 <genjix> :(
606 2011-03-12 04:00:30 Bosma has joined
607 2011-03-12 04:00:33 <nextnonce> lfm: didn't know mtgox had an API, v. cool
608 2011-03-12 04:00:33 <genjix> it's the best language
609 2011-03-12 04:00:59 * blarzong is weary
610 2011-03-12 04:01:13 <nextnonce> genjix: to use that, I first have to get bitcoind running right?
611 2011-03-12 04:01:29 <genjix> yeah
612 2011-03-12 04:02:43 <blarzong> selena gomez
613 2011-03-12 04:03:48 <Diablo-D3> blarzong: dude, she looks 12.
614 2011-03-12 04:05:52 <luke-jr> I also hate Python fwiw
615 2011-03-12 04:06:41 <genjix> perl/python is kind of like vim
616 2011-03-12 04:06:43 <genjix> love or hate it
617 2011-03-12 04:07:02 alystair has quit (Quit: â(ã»_ã»)âOUTTA HEREâ(ã»oã»)â)
618 2011-03-12 04:08:09 <jrabbit> lol
619 2011-03-12 04:08:42 <x6763> i used to love python
620 2011-03-12 04:08:56 <mizerydearia> Is there anyone here that lives in Japan?
621 2011-03-12 04:09:19 <mizerydearia> MagicalTux?
622 2011-03-12 04:09:25 <x6763> but eventually i found clojure
623 2011-03-12 04:09:38 <jrabbit> clojure is fucking ugly
624 2011-03-12 04:09:41 <x6763> lol
625 2011-03-12 04:09:44 <jrabbit> worst lisp IO've ever seen
626 2011-03-12 04:10:46 hazek has quit (Quit: Page closed)
627 2011-03-12 04:13:41 <agorist> blarzong, if bitcoins crashes because your cartel theory, another cryptocurrency will takeover without any chances for a cartel to form
628 2011-03-12 04:14:01 <agorist> if bitcoin network crashes because of your cartel theory*
629 2011-03-12 04:15:08 <noagendamarket> and how is that going to be accomplished ?
630 2011-03-12 04:15:14 <agorist> what is
631 2011-03-12 04:15:32 <noagendamarket> stopping "cartels"
632 2011-03-12 04:15:43 <agorist> i dunno ask blarzong
633 2011-03-12 04:15:48 <noagendamarket> whos going to point the guns :)
634 2011-03-12 04:16:04 <jrabbit> more cartels
635 2011-03-12 04:16:12 <jrabbit> CARTELS ALL THE WAY DOWN
636 2011-03-12 04:16:53 <x6763> i think the word "cartel" has been used wrong in these discussions with blarzong...it's been used as nothing more than a synonym for "partnership" or "corporation" or "business"...i think his problem is just that there's possibly a very small number of people with a large number of bitcoins, potentially "cornerning the market"
637 2011-03-12 04:17:10 <agorist> yes
638 2011-03-12 04:17:20 <agorist> blarzong claims 90%+ of btcs are owned by a single few, which make sense
639 2011-03-12 04:17:30 <x6763> which to me isn't a much of a concern at all
640 2011-03-12 04:17:53 <jrabbit> well there are quite a few people who have been around for a whiel that have quite a few hanging around but thats only a threat to the cureent price
641 2011-03-12 04:17:57 <jrabbit> not the system itself
642 2011-03-12 04:18:20 <validus> given how long that bitcoins are going to be going for. techincally they dont hold 90%
643 2011-03-12 04:18:21 <x6763> and if they dump them on the market, that means i can buy them cheap!
644 2011-03-12 04:18:48 <agorist> blarzong argues that dumping lots of btcs on the market will crash it
645 2011-03-12 04:19:02 <agorist> because btcs compared to fiat will go down in price
646 2011-03-12 04:19:09 <x6763> i don't think it would crash...it would certaily be highly volatile
647 2011-03-12 04:19:26 <x6763> (crash as in permanently disable the system)
648 2011-03-12 04:19:38 <FellowTraveler> Just cause the price goes down doesn't disable the system
649 2011-03-12 04:19:41 <FellowTraveler> that's just a buying opportunity
650 2011-03-12 04:19:52 <x6763> but i suspect it would stabilize again
651 2011-03-12 04:20:05 <FellowTraveler> as long as people are using it more for a currency than as a store of value, then it's not like anyone will lose their life's savings
652 2011-03-12 04:20:16 <x6763> yep
653 2011-03-12 04:20:24 <noagendamarket> the lower the price is the more people can buy btc
654 2011-03-12 04:20:33 <noagendamarket> so its all relative
655 2011-03-12 04:20:38 <x6763> yep
656 2011-03-12 04:20:45 <noagendamarket> rather than mining they buy
657 2011-03-12 04:23:07 Zib has quit (Ping timeout: 254 seconds)
658 2011-03-12 04:24:15 <x6763> for someone to dump say 2 million bitcoins onto the market right now would practically be an act of charity, since they'd only sell a few at close to the current market price...the rest would have to be sold dirt cheap, so the seller would gain very little, while the buyers would gain a lot
659 2011-03-12 04:24:47 <agorist> for sure, theyd have to wait for 1USD = 0.1BTC or something
660 2011-03-12 04:25:02 <agorist> to be it a good deal for them
661 2011-03-12 04:25:06 <x6763> in the future when bitcoin is worth more, the only difference in the situation would be nominal
662 2011-03-12 04:25:19 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: A currency IS supposed to be a good store of value
663 2011-03-12 04:25:50 <jrabbit> whats intresting is if BTC will be used as a baseline for another more violatile currency
664 2011-03-12 04:25:55 <FellowTraveler> AAA_awright I think only history can prove such a thing.
665 2011-03-12 04:26:10 <AAA_awright> IF it were that it weren't a good store of value, it would be due to the fact that there's lots of risk in the economy, maybe it's a primitive economy, or prone to natural disaster
666 2011-03-12 04:26:32 <FellowTraveler> dirt isn't a good store of value, and dirt doesn't imply risk in the economy.
667 2011-03-12 04:26:54 <jrabbit> it is if your economy is mud based
668 2011-03-12 04:27:05 <x6763> oh i was thinking that FellowTraveler meant as long as people were actually trading bitcoins for goods instead of everyone using bitcoins only as a store of value and nothing more
669 2011-03-12 04:27:05 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: That's why BitCoins aren't presently a good money, because it's way more risky than the economy at large is
670 2011-03-12 04:27:06 <jrabbit> Anyone?
671 2011-03-12 04:27:08 <lfm> land prices should be a good baseline
672 2011-03-12 04:27:19 <FellowTraveler> history has not produced any mud-based currencies that lasted for more than a few decades, tops.
673 2011-03-12 04:27:26 <FellowTraveler> Even fiat currencies last longer than mud based currencies.
674 2011-03-12 04:27:36 <jrabbit> FellowTraveler: its a dilbert refrence
675 2011-03-12 04:27:53 <lfm> FellowTraveler: if by mud you mean land, thats not so bad
676 2011-03-12 04:28:13 <genjix> what's the usual format for BTC exchange rates?
677 2011-03-12 04:28:18 <genjix> is it USD / BTC?
678 2011-03-12 04:28:30 <AAA_awright> Now that leaves have been designated as the official currency, we begin a massive defoliation effort to counter the massive increase in inflation
679 2011-03-12 04:28:36 <FellowTraveler> My interest in Bitcoin is as a medium of exchange that cannot be confiscated. As long as it is freely convertible on markets to gold and other currencies, Bitcoin doesn't HAVE to be a store of value.
680 2011-03-12 04:28:56 <FellowTraveler> it's liquidity and convertibility and non-confiscatability is value enough for it to trade on markets.
681 2011-03-12 04:29:15 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: It has to store value somewhat well, and that it does do, but not for long term I wouldn't
682 2011-03-12 04:29:18 <FellowTraveler> the future world will probably store in gold and spend in bitcoins or some combination â it's a mistake to compare these things against each other when they will all be working together.
683 2011-03-12 04:29:27 <AAA_awright> If it didn't store value well at all there would be no point in exchanging with it
684 2011-03-12 04:29:42 <FellowTraveler> well let's give a few thousand years then and see if it works.
685 2011-03-12 04:29:47 <FellowTraveler> then we can start exchanging with it.
686 2011-03-12 04:30:09 <jrabbit> AAA_awright: XDR doesn't "store value" at all and is used for exchanges :P
687 2011-03-12 04:30:09 <x6763> why would anyone accept a bitcoin if it didn't have (a store of) value?
688 2011-03-12 04:30:33 <AAA_awright> x6763: Exactly my point
689 2011-03-12 04:30:35 <jrabbit> that is the right name for the worldbank spedical withdraw thing right?
690 2011-03-12 04:30:47 <lfm> yup I think money was inveted to store value
691 2011-03-12 04:30:49 <FellowTraveler> look at silk road market â why are they using bitcoin there instead of e-gold
692 2011-03-12 04:30:50 <x6763> the fact that someone is willing to accept a bitcoin means that it does have a store of value...they expect to be able to buy something with it later
693 2011-03-12 04:31:11 <FellowTraveler> because bitcoin is p2p/nonconfiscatable. That IS its value.
694 2011-03-12 04:31:16 <FellowTraveler> it actually adds value.
695 2011-03-12 04:31:40 <FellowTraveler> So even if ALL VALUE isn't stored there, it can absorb enough that people can trade into dollars and into rubles and onto drug markets and wherever they want, and in and out again.
696 2011-03-12 04:31:43 <x6763> FellowTraveler: those qualities are among the many different qualities that many people value, yes
697 2011-03-12 04:31:48 <lfm> even if it is only for a small time (microsecond) money stores value
698 2011-03-12 04:31:50 <AAA_awright> Good monies (1) store value and don't spoil, (2) are divisible, (3) are homogeneous, (4) have a broad use (5) are easy to store or otherwise generally have a very high value concentrataion per mass compared to alternatives
699 2011-03-12 04:31:51 <FellowTraveler> it's the market aspect, bitcoin traded against OTHER THINGS that I think gives it its real value.
700 2011-03-12 04:32:07 <AAA_awright> Like, say, gold.
701 2011-03-12 04:32:13 <FellowTraveler> yes WWW_awright but we are moving into a time where those qualities will be provided by interconnecting systems, each which solves different problems.
702 2011-03-12 04:32:27 <AAA_awright> FellowTraveler: You know how to tab-complete right?
703 2011-03-12 04:32:30 <FellowTraveler> you won't have all of it in a single thing (like bitcoin) but rather in an ecosystem that bitcoin plays a part in.
704 2011-03-12 04:33:09 <FellowTraveler> you mean unix command line?
705 2011-03-12 04:33:54 <x6763> i'm thinking this is a semantic argument at this point....i think FellowTraveler actually sees it very much like we do, but is explaining it differently (maybe hasn't read rothbard or mises?)
706 2011-03-12 04:35:09 <FellowTraveler> All I'm saying is that bitcoin doesn't have to be a "thousands of years" store of value in order to HAVE value as a currency.
707 2011-03-12 04:35:35 <FellowTraveler> it doesn't have to solve ALL the problems of what we need in a money â just some of them, in order to be important/incorporated.
708 2011-03-12 04:35:45 <FellowTraveler> like we want untraceable money, and bitcoin cannot do that alone
709 2011-03-12 04:36:01 <FellowTraveler> but I'm sure markets like silk road will add anonymizing layer to their bitcoin when they get caught the first time.
710 2011-03-12 04:37:24 <FellowTraveler> it's an ecosystem, with transaction servers (like Loom), issuers (like all the issuers using Loom now), p2p commodity (bitcoin), p2p transfers (bitcoin), p2p currency conversion (ripple), untraceable layers (OT), exchangers (in the various jurisdictions)
711 2011-03-12 04:37:34 <FellowTraveler> it's all of that working together that gives you the full money functionality.
712 2011-03-12 04:37:39 bitcoiner has joined
713 2011-03-12 04:37:50 <FellowTraveler> and gold will also play a part I'm sure as well as any other thing of value
714 2011-03-12 04:38:02 <FellowTraveler> All things of value will be traded online and as long as bitcoin is a source of value it will be traded against them on markets.
715 2011-03-12 04:38:11 <FellowTraveler> And it's that convertibility that gives bitcoin some of its value.
716 2011-03-12 04:39:07 <FellowTraveler> also anonymous networks have a big part to play and in fact I think the currencies and the networks will grow into one entity.
717 2011-03-12 04:39:18 <FellowTraveler> Because untraceable cash solves problems of resource allocation on anonymous networks and mesh networks.
718 2011-03-12 04:39:47 <FellowTraveler> I'm not here because I see Bitcoin as a be-all-end-all, but because I see it as solving certain specific vital problems in the overall big picture.
719 2011-03-12 04:40:24 <FellowTraveler> I also see community currencies in a similar way, since they represent, like Bitcoin, a way to have backing value that cannot be confiscated.
720 2011-03-12 04:40:44 <FellowTraveler> Such CCs could later be added to a basket currency on OT, or traded against each other on markets, and also against bitcoin.
721 2011-03-12 04:41:13 <FellowTraveler> Right now you can buy bitcoins, use them to buy drugs, and then the seller can convert them back onto a Visa Card.
722 2011-03-12 04:41:21 <FellowTraveler> If that happened with GoldMoney, they would already be shut down.
723 2011-03-12 04:41:30 <FellowTraveler> Therefore you can already see the value of Bitcoin emerging
724 2011-03-12 04:41:48 <FellowTraveler> it's non-confiscatability, it's ability not to be shut down
725 2011-03-12 04:42:02 <FellowTraveler> just THAT is enough â other systems will sprout up and integrate with bitcoin to solve other problems
726 2011-03-12 04:42:17 <FellowTraveler> but that is a key issue that bitcoin solves and as long as it's convertible, it doesn't even have to do anything else to succed.
727 2011-03-12 04:42:26 <FellowTraveler> Anyway just my thoughts, take it as you will.
728 2011-03-12 04:42:37 <FellowTraveler> But I definitely see where my own software and bitcoin will be integrated at some point soon.
729 2011-03-12 04:42:40 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
730 2011-03-12 04:46:43 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
731 2011-03-12 04:47:00 <mizerydearia> more pictures needed! http://witcoin.com/
732 2011-03-12 04:47:06 <mizerydearia> s/pictures/thumbnails/
733 2011-03-12 04:47:31 Syke has joined
734 2011-03-12 04:48:05 phantomcircuit_ has joined
735 2011-03-12 04:48:08 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
736 2011-03-12 04:48:41 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
737 2011-03-12 04:48:55 <agorist> what's the avarage khash/s one can get from generating coins through the bitcoin client
738 2011-03-12 04:49:14 <validus> it would all depend on your cpu speed
739 2011-03-12 04:49:18 <agorist> with just a pentium3 and an average nvdiia
740 2011-03-12 04:49:26 <validus> but unless your doing gpu its going to take a long while
741 2011-03-12 04:49:32 <validus> not very good
742 2011-03-12 04:49:43 <agorist> it tells me im doing 653 khash/s
743 2011-03-12 04:49:50 <validus> thats possible
744 2011-03-12 04:49:58 <validus> ;;bc,gen 653
745 2011-03-12 04:49:59 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 653 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 0.00862018245665 BTC per day and 0.000359174269027 BTC per hour.
746 2011-03-12 04:50:08 <validus> ;;bc,calc 653
747 2011-03-12 04:50:10 phantomcircuit has joined
748 2011-03-12 04:50:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 653 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 15 years, 46 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 11 minutes, and 25 seconds
749 2011-03-12 04:50:22 <agorist> LOL
750 2011-03-12 04:50:24 <validus> in 15 years if your the first to submit the block you might get 50 btc
751 2011-03-12 04:50:29 <validus> :P
752 2011-03-12 04:50:36 <validus> ati pwns for mining ill give ati that
753 2011-03-12 04:50:37 <x6763> assuming the difficulty doesn't increase in the next 15 years
754 2011-03-12 04:50:38 <x6763> lol
755 2011-03-12 04:51:17 bk128 has joined
756 2011-03-12 04:51:46 <agorist> ;;bc,gen 653000
757 2011-03-12 04:51:47 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 653000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 8.62018245665 BTC per day and 0.359174269027 BTC per hour.
758 2011-03-12 04:51:55 <agorist> ;;bc,calc 653000
759 2011-03-12 04:52:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 653000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 5 days, 19 hours, 12 minutes, and 29 seconds
760 2011-03-12 04:52:23 <x6763> gribble does *k*hps, not hps
761 2011-03-12 04:53:55 <genjix> jgarzik: are you still handing out a bounty for a free software exchange? http://fishysnax.com/intersango/
762 2011-03-12 04:54:05 <genjix> http://gitorious.org/intersango/master/trees/master <- source code
763 2011-03-12 04:55:26 <genjix> anyone want to donate me 1 BTC for testing? the faucet isn't working for me... i have 0 btc
764 2011-03-12 04:55:46 <agorist> lol you have no btc
765 2011-03-12 04:56:50 <genjix> 1Mftmn6ZNAwWFr5wxn3xKpDZwyBMu4QbHc
766 2011-03-12 04:57:03 <genjix> yeah my laptop broke... i needed a new one :p
767 2011-03-12 04:57:04 <luke-jr> agorist: bc,gen is useless for the builtin miner
768 2011-03-12 04:57:15 <agorist> oh
769 2011-03-12 04:57:29 <luke-jr> genjix: copy the wallet off your HD
770 2011-03-12 04:57:30 <luke-jr> or backup
771 2011-03-12 04:57:46 <genjix> no i spent all my btc to pay for it :p
772 2011-03-12 04:57:51 <luke-jr> o
773 2011-03-12 04:57:57 <luke-jr> genjix: I just sent u 50 TBC ;)
774 2011-03-12 04:58:11 <luke-jr> [23:57:53] <ljrbot> TX 541fe939fb4f0a73f707b443c0590174a08bd4a990e1c1b0741cd768473c1896: 1Mftmn6ZNAwWFr5wxn3xKpDZwyBMu4QbHc 50 TBC, 16AsKzoQJT1AJWmuDr3WnwSLas1YeNxop7 0.0175712 BTC
775 2011-03-12 04:58:13 <genjix> thanks :) i will pay you back once i get more
776 2011-03-12 04:58:34 <genjix> (just need it for testing)
777 2011-03-12 04:58:55 Bosma has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
778 2011-03-12 04:59:40 <agorist> throwing btcs just like that eh
779 2011-03-12 05:00:55 <luke-jr> agorist: no, that was TBCs
780 2011-03-12 05:01:49 MingusDew has joined
781 2011-03-12 05:02:12 <agorist> whats tbc
782 2011-03-12 05:02:48 <Cusipzzz> god hates tbc
783 2011-03-12 05:04:24 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726])
784 2011-03-12 05:05:10 <agorist> aah 1tbc = 0.00065536btc
785 2011-03-12 05:05:31 <agorist> why not just youse SI
786 2011-03-12 05:05:48 <agorist> use
787 2011-03-12 05:06:01 <luke-jr> agorist: cuz SI sucks
788 2011-03-12 05:06:09 <luke-jr> SI was the worst thing anyone ever thought of
789 2011-03-12 05:06:17 <agorist> haha why
790 2011-03-12 05:06:21 <luke-jr> it's decimal
791 2011-03-12 05:06:30 <agorist> yea ..
792 2011-03-12 05:06:51 <lfm> luke thinks 16 is more "natural" than 10
793 2011-03-12 05:07:06 <agorist> but its not!
794 2011-03-12 05:07:09 <jrabbit> luke-jr: do you have 16 toes?
795 2011-03-12 05:07:14 <agorist> haha
796 2011-03-12 05:07:48 <jrabbit> thoguh you can coutn very high on your joints of you hand
797 2011-03-12 05:08:39 <x6763> you can also count in binary with your fingers, though certain numbers may be offensive to others
798 2011-03-12 05:08:45 <genjix> wtf 16 is a much better base than 10
799 2011-03-12 05:09:07 <genjix> it's just luck we use decimal
800 2011-03-12 05:09:59 <luke-jr> agorist: it is
801 2011-03-12 05:10:11 <genjix> base 16: 100 / 8 = 50
802 2011-03-12 05:10:16 <luke-jr> decimal is one of the worst possible bases
803 2011-03-12 05:10:27 <genjix> wait :p
804 2011-03-12 05:10:31 <luke-jr> genjix: 20
805 2011-03-12 05:10:38 <genjix> yeah that
806 2011-03-12 05:11:02 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Pythogras disagrees
807 2011-03-12 05:11:25 <genjix> also: pi is wrong
808 2011-03-12 05:11:33 <genjix> the constant is half the value it should be.
809 2011-03-12 05:11:33 <luke-jr> read page 4 of http://www.dozenal.org/archive/DuodecimalBulletinIssue382-web.pdf
810 2011-03-12 05:11:43 <luke-jr> it's not pro-tonal, but it explains things a bit
811 2011-03-12 05:11:52 <luke-jr> genjix: Ï
812 2011-03-12 05:12:11 <genjix> haha you know!
813 2011-03-12 05:12:16 <genjix> http://tauday.com/
814 2011-03-12 05:12:22 <jrabbit> Pythagoras is a cult leader.
815 2011-03-12 05:12:37 <AAA_awright> It's just luck. Never mind base 10 was invented concurrently by many, many cultures.
816 2011-03-12 05:12:50 <AAA_awright> That's why it's lucky.
817 2011-03-12 05:13:01 <genjix> no it wasn't.
818 2011-03-12 05:13:11 <AAA_awright> genjix: And/or base 60
819 2011-03-12 05:13:22 <genjix> and base 16 and 36
820 2011-03-12 05:13:37 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: read the pdf
821 2011-03-12 05:13:51 <luke-jr> AAA_awright: base 10 was invented for counting, but base 12 was always invented for units
822 2011-03-12 05:13:54 <luke-jr> luck for 12?
823 2011-03-12 05:13:56 <genjix> and 20
824 2011-03-12 05:14:09 <genjix> babylonians used base 60
825 2011-03-12 05:14:24 <luke-jr> I phrased that wrong
826 2011-03-12 05:14:32 <genjix> base 27 too :p
827 2011-03-12 05:14:36 <genjix> heh
828 2011-03-12 05:14:44 <luke-jr> base 12 wasn't always used for units, but every culture inevitably came up with it for units somewhere
829 2011-03-12 05:14:45 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
830 2011-03-12 05:14:49 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
831 2011-03-12 05:15:05 <luke-jr> because base 12 is natural for division in general
832 2011-03-12 05:15:40 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
833 2011-03-12 05:16:10 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, tell that to the SI idiots
834 2011-03-12 05:16:21 <phantomcircuit> STUPID AMERICUNTS AND THEIR IMPERIAL SYSTEM
835 2011-03-12 05:16:37 <AAA_awright> IT'S [JUST] A FUNNY NUMBER
836 2011-03-12 05:16:40 <genjix> glad you're admitting the truth.
837 2011-03-12 05:16:49 <agorist> so why base 16 when base 12 is for units
838 2011-03-12 05:16:57 <genjix> first step to recovery phantomcircuit
839 2011-03-12 05:17:01 <AAA_awright> What do we mean my "units" anyways
840 2011-03-12 05:17:04 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
841 2011-03-12 05:17:06 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: SI has only ever been adopted by force/threat of law
842 2011-03-12 05:17:09 <AAA_awright> Units are numberless
843 2011-03-12 05:17:24 <AAA_awright> Unless defined in terms of another unit
844 2011-03-12 05:17:25 <luke-jr> agorist: tonal is infinitely divisible by 2, and easily converted to binary
845 2011-03-12 05:17:29 <genjix> not necessarily AAA_awright
846 2011-03-12 05:17:41 <genjix> the mole for instance
847 2011-03-12 05:17:41 <luke-jr> agorist: both tonal and dozenal have strengths, I'm torn between them atm
848 2011-03-12 05:17:57 <AAA_awright> genjix: The mole is unitless
849 2011-03-12 05:18:11 <genjix> the mole is a unit
850 2011-03-12 05:18:18 <AAA_awright> It's a numerical constant like MiB or k
851 2011-03-12 05:18:20 <genjix> it's just a number though
852 2011-03-12 05:18:20 <AAA_awright> er, Mi
853 2011-03-12 05:18:32 <genjix> yeah but you use it as a unit
854 2011-03-12 05:18:36 <AAA_awright> MiB is a unit and a constant multiplied together
855 2011-03-12 05:18:40 <genjix> i have 10 moles of carbon-12
856 2011-03-12 05:19:15 <genjix> ok?
857 2011-03-12 05:19:29 <AAA_awright> genjix: Which is a specific number of carbon-12 elementary particles
858 2011-03-12 05:19:53 <genjix> i was raised on SI prefixes... i know my weight and everything in metric.
859 2011-03-12 05:20:03 <genjix> imperial to me is highly confusing and illogical
860 2011-03-12 05:20:11 <genjix> metric is natural.
861 2011-03-12 05:20:37 <genjix> i know one set of prefixes for all the units in daily life :p
862 2011-03-12 05:20:40 <AAA_awright> Who's arguing in favor of imperial?
863 2011-03-12 05:20:50 <genjix> phantomcircuit and luke-jr
864 2011-03-12 05:20:52 <AAA_awright> Except for the fact it's economical in many cases
865 2011-03-12 05:21:53 <lfm> genjix: decimal is natural for humans that are immersed in decimal. It may not be natural for other beings (dolphins, elephantsm little green men, luke_jr)
866 2011-03-12 05:22:18 <AAA_awright> lfm: Place value systems are unnatural period
867 2011-03-12 05:22:29 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
868 2011-03-12 05:26:48 <luke-jr> genjix: not quite
869 2011-03-12 05:27:41 <luke-jr> genjix: is binary so confusing? :P
870 2011-03-12 05:30:27 <luke-jr> genjix: 1 tun = 2 butt = 4 hogshead = 8 barrel = 16 cask = 32 coomb = 64 strike = 128 bushel = 256 kenning = 512 peck = 1024 gallon = 2048 pottle = 4096 quart = 8192 pint = 16384 cup = 32768 gill = 65536 jack = 131072 pony = 262144 mouthful
871 2011-03-12 05:30:40 <luke-jr> 'course that'd look MUCH nicer in tonal
872 2011-03-12 05:31:12 <dirtyfilthy> wtf, imperial is insane, chains in the furlong etc
873 2011-03-12 05:31:29 <luke-jr> genjix: 1 tun = 2 butt = 4 hogshead = 8 barrel = 10 cask = 20 coomb = 40 strike = 80 bushel = 100 kenning = 200 peck = 400 gallon = 800 pottle = 1000 quart = 2000 pint = 4000 cup = 8000 gill = 1,0000 jack = 2,0000 pony = 4,0000 mouthful
874 2011-03-12 05:32:44 <genjix> you know the reality is that people only use feet, yards, inches .etc
875 2011-03-12 05:32:58 <luke-jr> genjix: where? :P
876 2011-03-12 05:33:20 <genjix> and they're based off things like the length of a kings thumb or something
877 2011-03-12 05:33:37 <luke-jr> genjix: vaguely. feet/inches is a dozenal unit
878 2011-03-12 05:33:41 <luke-jr> s/unit/relation
879 2011-03-12 05:37:04 <phantomcircuit> lol the news is so ridiculous
880 2011-03-12 05:37:21 <luke-jr> ?
881 2011-03-12 05:37:26 <phantomcircuit> while they're describing the nuclear power plant problems in japan they're showing a fuel dump burning
882 2011-03-12 05:37:32 <phantomcircuit> implying they're the same thing
883 2011-03-12 05:37:40 <luke-jr> â¦
884 2011-03-12 05:38:19 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, iknorite
885 2011-03-12 05:38:57 <luke-jr> genjix: poke
886 2011-03-12 05:39:32 <luke-jr> hmm, didn't work
887 2011-03-12 05:39:34 <luke-jr> genjix: STAB
888 2011-03-12 05:40:48 <genjix> retort
889 2011-03-12 05:41:37 <luke-jr> genjix: can I merge tonal branch yet
890 2011-03-12 05:43:53 <genjix> go ahead
891 2011-03-12 05:45:19 <luke-jr> k, done
892 2011-03-12 05:45:25 <luke-jr> git lol looks funny now
893 2011-03-12 05:47:16 <genjix> and so it has begun http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4398.0
894 2011-03-12 05:47:23 <genjix> lol
895 2011-03-12 05:47:43 <genjix> such bad grammer
896 2011-03-12 05:50:22 <agorist> any bitcoin module for oscommerce available ?
897 2011-03-12 05:51:32 <luke-jr> LOL
898 2011-03-12 05:51:43 <agorist> lol?
899 2011-03-12 05:53:26 <genjix> agorist: see my latest 2 posts http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4086.20
900 2011-03-12 05:53:55 <genjix> for how to properly integrate bitcoin.
901 2011-03-12 05:54:25 <luke-jr> genjix: FYI, that code is useless for Spesmilo :P
902 2011-03-12 05:54:45 <phantomcircuit> N/A 1-75 (special) data The next opcode bytes is data to be pushed onto the stack
903 2011-03-12 05:54:46 <phantomcircuit> lol
904 2011-03-12 05:55:02 <phantomcircuit> i like the merging of data and code
905 2011-03-12 05:55:05 <genjix> luke-jr: you mean the branch or the php?
906 2011-03-12 05:55:20 <luke-jr> genjix: teh code you posted there
907 2011-03-12 05:56:43 <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, remember this issue? http://meta.witcoin.com/p/348/Transactions---float-conversion-issue#r-733 -- It is not documented a bit and maybe this issue that sgornick has experienced will help to FINALLY? establish fixing it.
908 2011-03-12 05:57:47 <genjix> mizerydearia: lol http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4086.20
909 2011-03-12 05:57:52 <genjix> see last post i just made
910 2011-03-12 05:58:01 <mizerydearia> ^_^
911 2011-03-12 05:58:05 <mizerydearia> it's a recurring issue
912 2011-03-12 05:58:11 <mizerydearia> I first brought it up like 9 months ago
913 2011-03-12 05:58:13 <genjix> i have a fix
914 2011-03-12 05:58:16 <mizerydearia> yay
915 2011-03-12 06:01:42 <luke-jr> wtf is with you people demanding strings?
916 2011-03-12 06:01:49 <luke-jr> that is just making it worse
917 2011-03-12 06:02:17 <luke-jr> int51+ is the only real solution, and can be used in the new protocol
918 2011-03-12 06:02:46 <genjix> mizerydearia: i updated the wiki https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#PHP
919 2011-03-12 06:02:48 <phantomcircuit> OP_PUSHDATA4 78 (special) data The next four bytes contain the number of bytes to be pushed onto the stack.
920 2011-03-12 06:02:49 <phantomcircuit> rofl
921 2011-03-12 06:02:57 <phantomcircuit> a 4GB stack?
922 2011-03-12 06:03:03 <agorist> genjix, I was referring to a ready-to-go install module
923 2011-03-12 06:03:08 <agorist> for oscommerce
924 2011-03-12 06:03:11 <genjix> oh ok
925 2011-03-12 06:03:19 <agorist> so its easy for mechants
926 2011-03-12 06:03:21 <agorist> merchants
927 2011-03-12 06:03:22 <agorist> to install it
928 2011-03-12 06:03:25 <agorist> on their websites
929 2011-03-12 06:03:28 <agorist> and accept bitcoins
930 2011-03-12 06:03:34 <luke-jr> sigh
931 2011-03-12 06:03:36 <luke-jr> night
932 2011-03-12 06:04:08 <Diablo-D3> [12:56:41] <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, remember this issue? http://meta.witcoin.com/p/348/Transactions---float-conversion-issue#r-733 -- It is not documented a bit and maybe this issue that sgornick has experienced will help to FINALLY? establish fixing it.
933 2011-03-12 06:04:17 <Diablo-D3> yes, its called STOP USING FLOATS YOU IDIOT
934 2011-03-12 06:04:36 <Diablo-D3> its a fixed precision number. 8 places.
935 2011-03-12 06:04:37 <luke-jr> don't let the troll bite ;)
936 2011-03-12 06:05:16 <mizerydearia> Diablo-D3, uhhh, I have no control over it? It's fault of http://json-rpc.org?
937 2011-03-12 06:05:18 <mizerydearia> How am I the idiot?
938 2011-03-12 06:05:24 <phantomcircuit> i like how people dont understand floating point operations
939 2011-03-12 06:05:25 <phantomcircuit> like
940 2011-03-12 06:05:26 <phantomcircuit> at all
941 2011-03-12 06:05:28 <Diablo-D3> mizerydearia: no, its satoshi
942 2011-03-12 06:05:35 <mizerydearia> mm
943 2011-03-12 06:05:37 <genjix> and it's the fault of json_decode
944 2011-03-12 06:05:41 <Diablo-D3> its not json's fault
945 2011-03-12 06:05:45 <Diablo-D3> you give it a float
946 2011-03-12 06:05:47 <Diablo-D3> it thinks its a float
947 2011-03-12 06:05:51 Syke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
948 2011-03-12 06:05:53 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: replacemetn for JSON-RPC if you want to help: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
949 2011-03-12 06:06:01 <genjix> yeah but php should have the option for better precision
950 2011-03-12 06:06:04 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: stop spamming that shit dude
951 2011-03-12 06:06:13 <Diablo-D3> genjix: no, because its illegal to use floats for money
952 2011-03-12 06:06:14 <genjix> mizerydearia: fix is documented here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#PHP
953 2011-03-12 06:06:19 <Diablo-D3> there are actual laws against this
954 2011-03-12 06:06:29 <luke-jr> genjix: workaround, not fix
955 2011-03-12 06:06:32 <luke-jr> fix is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
956 2011-03-12 06:06:32 <genjix> Diablo-D3: right, but python json has a parameter like parse_float=decimal.Decimal
957 2011-03-12 06:06:37 <Diablo-D3> thank God Bitcoin isnt money
958 2011-03-12 06:06:37 Syke has joined
959 2011-03-12 06:06:41 <genjix> php should have one too
960 2011-03-12 06:06:42 <Diablo-D3> genjix: but thats still wrong.
961 2011-03-12 06:06:44 <Diablo-D3> its an int.
962 2011-03-12 06:06:56 <genjix> i agree
963 2011-03-12 06:07:04 <agorist> lol diablo why do you say that
964 2011-03-12 06:07:09 <Diablo-D3> agorist: fixed point.
965 2011-03-12 06:07:13 <Diablo-D3> a very exact value.
966 2011-03-12 06:07:17 <luke-jr> agorist: because it is an int
967 2011-03-12 06:07:38 <luke-jr> agorist: your user interfaces just show the int shifted 8 decimal places to the right
968 2011-03-12 06:07:44 <Diablo-D3> yeah what luke said
969 2011-03-12 06:07:58 <agorist> ok so
970 2011-03-12 06:08:16 <mizerydearia> So 1 BTC will be "100000000"
971 2011-03-12 06:08:18 <luke-jr> agorist: 0.00000001 BTC is *really* a flat 1 unit
972 2011-03-12 06:08:20 <mizerydearia> Why not "1.00000000" ?
973 2011-03-12 06:08:29 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: because it's a number, not a string
974 2011-03-12 06:08:38 <luke-jr> and it's not 1, it's 100000000
975 2011-03-12 06:08:42 <mizerydearia> gmp and bcmath can handle strings npz
976 2011-03-12 06:08:49 <Diablo-D3> but you're still doing it wrong
977 2011-03-12 06:08:50 <luke-jr> irrelevant
978 2011-03-12 06:08:50 <Diablo-D3> its not a float.
979 2011-03-12 06:08:57 <genjix> mizerydearia: gmp cannot handle decimals
980 2011-03-12 06:08:59 <genjix> only ints
981 2011-03-12 06:09:00 <Diablo-D3> its a fixed point representation
982 2011-03-12 06:09:16 <Diablo-D3> that means, internally, its an integer somewhere
983 2011-03-12 06:09:24 <mizerydearia> mm
984 2011-03-12 06:09:30 <Diablo-D3> it's units just represent fractions of a whole int.
985 2011-03-12 06:09:43 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: how humans look at bitcoins is not always BTC either
986 2011-03-12 06:10:03 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: a few of us use TBC. I'm trying to encourage the Dozenal people to adopt it too
987 2011-03-12 06:10:09 <Diablo-D3> TBC?
988 2011-03-12 06:10:23 <phantomcircuit> OP_RETURN 106 Nothing Nothing Marks transaction as invalid.
989 2011-03-12 06:10:24 <phantomcircuit> the fuck
990 2011-03-12 06:10:26 <luke-jr> and in some years, even Decimal users will need to move to mBTC or uBTC
991 2011-03-12 06:10:33 <Diablo-D3> uBTC :D
992 2011-03-12 06:10:36 <agorist> its illegal to use exact values for money ?
993 2011-03-12 06:10:38 <Diablo-D3> thats the best term I ever made up
994 2011-03-12 06:10:41 <genjix> phantomcircuit: are you learning the script?
995 2011-03-12 06:10:44 <Diablo-D3> agorist: its illegal to use floats.
996 2011-03-12 06:10:49 <Diablo-D3> agorist: floats are inexact numbers.
997 2011-03-12 06:10:52 <phantomcircuit> yeah
998 2011-03-12 06:11:03 <Diablo-D3> 1.0 isnt 1.0
999 2011-03-12 06:11:04 <phantomcircuit> genjix, yeah, this makes absolutely no sense, at all
1000 2011-03-12 06:11:07 <Diablo-D3> its 0.999999999999999999999chucknorris
1001 2011-03-12 06:11:09 <Diablo-D3> or some shit
1002 2011-03-12 06:11:18 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: 1.0 is 1.0
1003 2011-03-12 06:11:20 <luke-jr> just not 0.1
1004 2011-03-12 06:11:22 <validus> lol chucknorris
1005 2011-03-12 06:11:31 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: I was making joke :<
1006 2011-03-12 06:11:54 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: you failed
1007 2011-03-12 06:12:10 <luke-jr> it has to be funnier amid your trolling
1008 2011-03-12 06:12:22 <agorist> i dont see whats the issue..
1009 2011-03-12 06:12:42 <Diablo-D3> agorist: the issue is we have an exact value and we're downgrading it to an inexact value
1010 2011-03-12 06:12:44 <luke-jr> agorist: the issue is that computers can't handle 0.1
1011 2011-03-12 06:13:00 <luke-jr> agorist: and shouldn't be expected to in this case anyway
1012 2011-03-12 06:13:15 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, sure they can
1013 2011-03-12 06:13:18 <luke-jr> but it's an issue with a solution. so not really worth beating around the bush on
1014 2011-03-12 06:13:25 <phantomcircuit> just not with floating point
1015 2011-03-12 06:13:31 <Diablo-D3> its a fixed point representation, its a bug to have it in any other representation
1016 2011-03-12 06:13:40 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: tell me one CPU that supports "Decimal"
1017 2011-03-12 06:13:55 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: every language that has a Decimal type, emulates it with integers
1018 2011-03-12 06:14:10 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, i said nothing about being able to do so with individual cpu ops
1019 2011-03-12 06:14:43 <luke-jr> also, the Decimal type in Python is also floatingpoint
1020 2011-03-12 06:14:47 <Diablo-D3> you mean Decimal as in BigFloat?
1021 2011-03-12 06:14:51 <luke-jr> it just isn't a *binary* floating point
1022 2011-03-12 06:15:07 <Diablo-D3> nope Decimal == float
1023 2011-03-12 06:15:12 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: no
1024 2011-03-12 06:15:12 <Diablo-D3> in python
1025 2011-03-12 06:15:17 <Diablo-D3> or some other gay shit
1026 2011-03-12 06:15:20 <Diablo-D3> this is why I hate python
1027 2011-03-12 06:15:23 <Diablo-D3> it cant use industry standard terms
1028 2011-03-12 06:15:34 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: Decimal is 2 integers. one is the raw number, the other is a shift
1029 2011-03-12 06:15:47 <luke-jr> but unlike normal binary FPs, the shift works in decimal digits, not binary
1030 2011-03-12 06:16:01 <luke-jr> so it converts the # to decimal first, then moves the decimal point over
1031 2011-03-12 06:16:03 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: thats retarded
1032 2011-03-12 06:16:09 <Diablo-D3> no wonder python is so slow
1033 2011-03-12 06:16:12 <luke-jr> yeah, because it's decimal
1034 2011-03-12 06:17:09 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1035 2011-03-12 06:19:26 <Diablo-D3> either way
1036 2011-03-12 06:19:27 <Diablo-D3> its an int
1037 2011-03-12 06:19:28 <Diablo-D3> use an int
1038 2011-03-12 06:19:43 <Diablo-D3> we dont have floating point usage at all
1039 2011-03-12 06:19:47 <Diablo-D3> ie, the point doesnt float
1040 2011-03-12 06:19:48 <Diablo-D3> its fixed
1041 2011-03-12 06:19:54 <Diablo-D3> nothing to shift
1042 2011-03-12 06:20:09 <genjix> yeah and insert the . when you need to display/take user input.
1043 2011-03-12 06:20:40 <genjix> how comes bitcoin doesn't use the full precision of int64?
1044 2011-03-12 06:20:41 <Diablo-D3> yes.
1045 2011-03-12 06:20:46 <Diablo-D3> genjix: doesnt need to
1046 2011-03-12 06:20:58 <genjix> why not? it's there, so use it.
1047 2011-03-12 06:21:20 <genjix> can't hurt.
1048 2011-03-12 06:22:07 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, python uses hardware floats
1049 2011-03-12 06:22:13 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you have to explicitly use a decimal
1050 2011-03-12 06:23:21 <genjix> luke-jr: I think you're lying.
1051 2011-03-12 06:23:22 <genjix> >>> decimal.Decimal("2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")
1052 2011-03-12 06:23:25 <genjix> Decimal('2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001')
1053 2011-03-12 06:24:21 <genjix> actually, you might be right:
1054 2011-03-12 06:24:22 <genjix> >>> decimal.Decimal("2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")/decimal.Decimal("0.99999999999999999")
1055 2011-03-12 06:24:26 <genjix> Decimal('2.000000000000000020000000000')
1056 2011-03-12 06:24:40 <Diablo-D3> genjix: we only have 21m coins
1057 2011-03-12 06:24:50 <Diablo-D3> whats 21 << dec 8
1058 2011-03-12 06:25:31 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, uh
1059 2011-03-12 06:25:47 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, each of those coins is subdividable
1060 2011-03-12 06:26:04 <genjix> lol you're wrong:
1061 2011-03-12 06:26:05 <genjix> >>> decimal.getcontext().prec = 1000
1062 2011-03-12 06:26:05 <genjix> >>> decimal.Decimal("2.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001")/decimal.Decimal("0.99999999999999999")
1063 2011-03-12 06:26:09 <genjix> Decimal('2.000000000000000020000000000000000200000000000000002000000000000000020000000000000000200000000000000002000000000000000020000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001200000000000000012000000000000000120000000000000001
1064 2011-03-12 06:26:23 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: erm? I already said << dec 8
1065 2011-03-12 06:26:23 <genjix> python rules again
1066 2011-03-12 06:26:31 <genjix> suck it perl!
1067 2011-03-12 06:27:04 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yeah i dont know what that is
1068 2011-03-12 06:27:07 <phantomcircuit> it's a bitshift
1069 2011-03-12 06:27:10 <phantomcircuit> but dec 8?
1070 2011-03-12 06:28:01 <genjix> 1.0000 0000 = 1 0000 0000 in bitcoin's int64 internal representation.
1071 2011-03-12 06:28:03 <Diablo-D3> shift it 8 places in decimal
1072 2011-03-12 06:28:14 <Diablo-D3> is it larger than 4 billion?
1073 2011-03-12 06:28:30 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, uh yes?
1074 2011-03-12 06:28:46 <phantomcircuit> each btc is subdividable a billion times iirc
1075 2011-03-12 06:29:15 <genjix> nowhere near a billion
1076 2011-03-12 06:29:26 <genjix> billion = 10^12
1077 2011-03-12 06:29:35 <phantomcircuit> erm
1078 2011-03-12 06:29:41 <phantomcircuit> 10^9
1079 2011-03-12 06:29:43 <genjix> bitcoin = 10^8
1080 2011-03-12 06:29:50 <phantomcircuit> keep trying
1081 2011-03-12 06:29:57 <genjix> no it's not, its ^12
1082 2011-03-12 06:30:13 <phantomcircuit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000000000_%28number%29
1083 2011-03-12 06:30:42 <Diablo-D3> bleh I hate 10^x
1084 2011-03-12 06:30:45 <Diablo-D3> so much easier in 2^
1085 2011-03-12 06:30:48 <genjix> oh lol, americans have a different billion to the UK
1086 2011-03-12 06:31:04 <Diablo-D3> genjix: there is no such thing as a millard
1087 2011-03-12 06:31:04 <genjix> wow
1088 2011-03-12 06:31:06 <Diablo-D3> and there never was
1089 2011-03-12 06:31:21 <genjix> i never claimed there was
1090 2011-03-12 06:31:35 <genjix> just said that a billion = 10^12
1091 2011-03-12 06:32:25 <phantomcircuit> genjix, a billion is a billion is a billion
1092 2011-03-12 06:32:43 <ivan> the American billion won
1093 2011-03-12 06:32:58 <genjix> in the uk we call a billion like a million million
1094 2011-03-12 06:32:59 <ivan> I wonder if anyone thinks there are 7 * 10^12 people
1095 2011-03-12 06:33:14 <genjix> i honestly thought that
1096 2011-03-12 06:33:17 <phantomcircuit> genjix, that's retarded
1097 2011-03-12 06:33:45 <genjix> why is that retarded?
1098 2011-03-12 06:34:01 <genjix> OMG ITS DIFFERENT ITS RETARDED I DONT LIKE IT
1099 2011-03-12 06:34:51 <phantomcircuit> because who the hell uses it
1100 2011-03-12 06:34:54 <phantomcircuit> anyways
1101 2011-03-12 06:34:57 <phantomcircuit> it's 10 million
1102 2011-03-12 06:35:34 <genjix> imagine the horror i feel when i have to write 'SetColor' when coding
1103 2011-03-12 06:35:44 <genjix> i feel sandpaper scraping my eyes
1104 2011-03-12 06:36:01 bk128 has joined
1105 2011-03-12 06:36:52 <phantomcircuit> why would you have to write setcolor
1106 2011-03-12 06:37:24 <genjix> working on a project with others (standard english is american) or i'm using an api like Qt
1107 2011-03-12 06:38:28 <phantomcircuit> oh
1108 2011-03-12 06:38:45 <phantomcircuit> meh
1109 2011-03-12 06:39:58 <phantomcircuit> lol there is an alt stack in the scripting?
1110 2011-03-12 06:40:01 <phantomcircuit> why
1111 2011-03-12 06:40:03 <phantomcircuit> just
1112 2011-03-12 06:40:04 <phantomcircuit> why
1113 2011-03-12 06:40:12 <mizerydearia> anything else? or just that?
1114 2011-03-12 06:40:33 <phantomcircuit> oh so far i've only encountered a single thing that made sense
1115 2011-03-12 06:40:46 <mizerydearia> that doesn't make any sense
1116 2011-03-12 06:40:57 <mizerydearia> unless that is the single thing that you encountered?
1117 2011-03-12 06:41:22 <phantomcircuit> OP_VERIFY
1118 2011-03-12 06:41:27 <phantomcircuit> is so far the only sensical thing
1119 2011-03-12 06:41:33 <genjix> phantomcircuit: is it possible with scripting to have funds shared between 2 addresses
1120 2011-03-12 06:41:34 <phantomcircuit> except that it's kind of redundant
1121 2011-03-12 06:41:41 <genjix> so it requires both their permission to spend?
1122 2011-03-12 06:43:45 <phantomcircuit> what
1123 2011-03-12 06:43:54 <phantomcircuit> just have two sigops
1124 2011-03-12 06:43:56 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1125 2011-03-12 06:44:40 da2ce7 has joined
1126 2011-03-12 06:45:12 <genjix> cool
1127 2011-03-12 07:06:41 TheAncientGoat has joined
1128 2011-03-12 07:09:45 <MagicalTux> mizerydearia: yes
1129 2011-03-12 07:13:35 justmoon_ has joined
1130 2011-03-12 07:14:43 <genjix> hey MagicalTux
1131 2011-03-12 07:15:00 <MagicalTux> genjix: here one of the nuclear reactors affected has started meltdown
1132 2011-03-12 07:16:21 flok has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1133 2011-03-12 07:17:11 <phantomcircuit> http://imgur.com/gallery/lj2jr
1134 2011-03-12 07:17:13 <phantomcircuit> delicious
1135 2011-03-12 07:17:15 <genjix> MagicalTux: pm :p
1136 2011-03-12 07:17:19 <MagicalTux> genjix: I saw
1137 2011-03-12 07:17:26 <MagicalTux> but right now may not be the right time
1138 2011-03-12 07:17:27 <MagicalTux> xD
1139 2011-03-12 07:17:33 <genjix> ok cool
1140 2011-03-12 07:19:48 <genjix> phantomcircuit: what is that? at a glance it looks like worms, but on closer inspection it seems to be masonry?
1141 2011-03-12 07:21:44 <phantomcircuit> genjix, bees
1142 2011-03-12 07:23:54 <genjix> nice
1143 2011-03-12 07:24:09 flok has joined
1144 2011-03-12 07:24:14 <genjix> heh i shoulda read comments
1145 2011-03-12 07:30:00 <genjix> MagicalTux: sent.
1146 2011-03-12 07:30:08 <genjix> everybody here was talking about japan
1147 2011-03-12 07:30:18 <genjix> (in england)
1148 2011-03-12 07:30:21 <genjix> and on irc too.
1149 2011-03-12 07:30:31 <MagicalTux> yep
1150 2011-03-12 07:31:03 <MagicalTux> let's say you're in your office, and it suddently feels you're in a roller coaster
1151 2011-03-12 07:31:10 <genjix> haha so cool! :D
1152 2011-03-12 07:31:41 <genjix> did you sit on the floor?
1153 2011-03-12 07:31:54 <MagicalTux> nah, instead I tried to hold stuff
1154 2011-03-12 07:33:06 <edcba> so are harddisk quake proofs ?
1155 2011-03-12 07:33:15 <genjix> it's funny cos land is like crusts of bread floating on water... but you don't think so in daily life.
1156 2011-03-12 07:33:27 <jrabbit> edcba: if they have SMS units
1157 2011-03-12 07:33:33 <jrabbit> msot laptops would be fine
1158 2011-03-12 07:33:47 <jrabbit> my laptop shuts off its HDD when I hop off the last stair
1159 2011-03-12 07:34:55 <MagicalTux> edcba: no problem there
1160 2011-03-12 07:35:04 <genjix> yep it's so when you drop them they turn off.
1161 2011-03-12 07:35:17 <MagicalTux> just hope the quake itself is enough
1162 2011-03-12 07:35:35 <MagicalTux> s/enough/finished/
1163 2011-03-12 07:35:37 <genjix> did you see the picture of the tsunami ... ON FIRE
1164 2011-03-12 07:35:44 <jrabbit> lol what
1165 2011-03-12 07:35:51 <MagicalTux> there's enough to do with the tsunami and the nuclear power plant
1166 2011-03-12 07:36:04 <jrabbit> I saw the water going over stuff with shit on fire in it
1167 2011-03-12 07:36:13 <MagicalTux> genjix: I saw the people running to the shops to buy water and stuff
1168 2011-03-12 07:36:53 nextnonce has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1169 2011-03-12 07:37:05 <MagicalTux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown
1170 2011-03-12 07:37:15 <genjix> would be cool if japan became a water nation and people built houses on stilts
1171 2011-03-12 07:37:31 <genjix> then after years of living in/near water they slowly grow gills
1172 2011-03-12 07:38:02 <validus> ...
1173 2011-03-12 07:38:30 <jrabbit> lolol
1174 2011-03-12 07:38:40 <genjix> you think im trolling, but there are people's in the pacific who live in water their whole lives
1175 2011-03-12 07:38:50 <jrabbit> "* If you want to move fast, avoid the quagmire that is accommodating older versions of IE. Does it matter if CSS rounded corners donât render properly on IE? No, it does not matter. IE users can live with boxy buttons. Trust me, this is the least of worries for IE users.
1176 2011-03-12 07:38:55 <jrabbit> lololololol
1177 2011-03-12 07:39:01 <genjix> some children there have eyes more adapted for seeing underwater than on land.
1178 2011-03-12 07:39:20 <MagicalTux> genjix: that's called evolution
1179 2011-03-12 07:39:52 <genjix> it's not evolution because the generational timeframe is too short
1180 2011-03-12 07:40:00 <genjix> it's simply adaptation.
1181 2011-03-12 07:40:23 <genjix> there's a man that hunts underwater. he holds his breath for 10 mins and dives really deep.
1182 2011-03-12 07:40:23 <edcba> ok you avoid tsunamis but you don't avoid rogue waves
1183 2011-03-12 07:40:32 <lfm> " you think im trolling, ", no I think you're deluded
1184 2011-03-12 07:40:52 <genjix> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rrd81
1185 2011-03-12 07:40:52 <edcba> maybe safest is *in* water :)
1186 2011-03-12 07:41:06 <genjix> best documentary ever.
1187 2011-03-12 07:41:40 <validus> bbc tried to portray nintendo as a great evil empire
1188 2011-03-12 07:41:52 <validus> also back in 2004
1189 2011-03-12 07:43:40 <phantomcircuit> lulz
1190 2011-03-12 07:43:44 <lfm> ya you know what nintendo is doing to kids?
1191 2011-03-12 07:44:02 <validus> The series format is irritatingly slanted towards exposing Nintendo as a big bad corporation, and on the evidence presented there's relatively little dirt. Even though it's frustratingly obvious that nobody from Nintendo's senior staff would ever want speak to the BBC again afterwards, it's still a chance to see plenty of interesting interview footage.
1192 2011-03-12 07:44:29 <validus> at least they have reminders in their games to get fresh air and all that nonsense
1193 2011-03-12 07:48:44 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1194 2011-03-12 07:49:00 <genjix> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1299915264499.jpg
1195 2011-03-12 07:49:24 <genjix> LOL! you are fucked!
1196 2011-03-12 07:49:35 <genjix> regards, europe.
1197 2011-03-12 07:49:40 <edcba> now i understand why USA sent coolant :p
1198 2011-03-12 07:50:27 <jrabbit> yeah
1199 2011-03-12 07:52:27 <genjix> it makes me wonder... nuclear power is supposed to be our best option fot future resource depletion
1200 2011-03-12 07:52:37 <genjix> and they build lots of failsafes, so it's very secure.
1201 2011-03-12 07:53:11 <genjix> but the more you build, the greater the chance of a failure. and a failure is a big deal.
1202 2011-03-12 07:53:31 <edcba> hopefully in france we don't have much quakes...
1203 2011-03-12 08:00:14 <genjix> http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/315294293
1204 2011-03-12 08:00:19 <genjix> cant stop laughing at the comments
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1224 2011-03-12 09:14:05 <Keefe> g++ -O2 -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat -g -D__WXDEBUG__ -DNOPCH -DFOURWAYSSE2 -DUSE_SSL -o bitcoind obj/nogui/util.o obj/nogui/script.o obj/nogui/db.o obj/nogui/net.o obj/nogui/irc.o obj/nogui/main.o obj/nogui/rpc.o obj/nogui/init.o cryptopp/obj/sha.o cryptopp/obj/cpu.o obj/sha256.o -Wl,-Bstatic -l boost_system -l boost_filesystem -l boost_program_options -l boost_thread -l db_cxx -l ssl -l crypto -Wl,-Bdynamic -l gthread-2.0 -l z -l dl
1225 2011-03-12 09:14:11 <Keefe> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgthread-2.0
1226 2011-03-12 09:14:40 <Keefe> why isn't it saying "cannot find gthread-2.0"?
1227 2011-03-12 09:14:44 a_meteorite has joined
1228 2011-03-12 09:14:47 <Keefe> this is from the latest git
1229 2011-03-12 09:14:52 <lfm> Keefe: that means you need glib iirc
1230 2011-03-12 09:14:59 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: space
1231 2011-03-12 09:15:20 <Diablo-D3> spaces do not belong after -l
1232 2011-03-12 09:15:21 <Keefe> i just ran make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
1233 2011-03-12 09:15:36 <Keefe> hmm, borked makefile then?
1234 2011-03-12 09:15:38 <lfm> gthread is part of glib
1235 2011-03-12 09:16:02 <Keefe> lfm: thanks. i'll see if/why i'm missing glib
1236 2011-03-12 09:16:07 <Diablo-D3> man
1237 2011-03-12 09:16:12 <Diablo-D3> that makefile is full of shit
1238 2011-03-12 09:16:17 <Diablo-D3> static linking my dick
1239 2011-03-12 09:16:39 <Keefe> came from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tarball/master
1240 2011-03-12 09:16:40 <lfm> glib != glibc
1241 2011-03-12 09:16:42 <Keefe> about an hour ago
1242 2011-03-12 09:17:20 <lfm> Diablo-D3: the make file is fine if you have the prerequisites
1243 2011-03-12 09:17:30 dust1 has joined
1244 2011-03-12 09:17:49 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but who has static binaries for all this shit
1245 2011-03-12 09:17:52 skeledrew1 has joined
1246 2011-03-12 09:18:08 <lfm> not the makefiles fault
1247 2011-03-12 09:18:29 <Keefe> i did apt-get install the dependencies
1248 2011-03-12 09:18:42 <Keefe> i'm now trying to determine which debian package has glib...
1249 2011-03-12 09:19:11 <lfm> ya irrc that glib gthread is missing, someone assumed wrongly that everyone would have it
1250 2011-03-12 09:19:17 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: libglib-2.0
1251 2011-03-12 09:19:37 <Diablo-D3> but you already have that installed
1252 2011-03-12 09:20:00 <Diablo-D3> er sorry, its libglib2.0-0
1253 2011-03-12 09:20:19 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: lrn2use apt-cache search
1254 2011-03-12 09:20:42 <Keefe> :( libglib2.0-0 is already the newest version
1255 2011-03-12 09:20:49 <Diablo-D3> yes, you already have it
1256 2011-03-12 09:20:52 <Diablo-D3> gtk requires it
1257 2011-03-12 09:20:54 <Ratchet> you'll need the -dev package
1258 2011-03-12 09:20:59 <jrabbit> isntal -dev
1259 2011-03-12 09:21:02 <Diablo-D3> Ratchet: no he doesnt
1260 2011-03-12 09:21:05 <Diablo-D3> its failing on the -l
1261 2011-03-12 09:21:09 <Diablo-D3> not the compile
1262 2011-03-12 09:21:09 <Ratchet> oh ok :-)
1263 2011-03-12 09:21:12 <Diablo-D3> this is a linker failure
1264 2011-03-12 09:21:41 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1265 2011-03-12 09:21:50 <lfm> try linking it dynamic
1266 2011-03-12 09:21:52 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: make sure the /usr/lib/libgthread-2.0.so symlink exists
1267 2011-03-12 09:21:54 <Diablo-D3> lfm: he is
1268 2011-03-12 09:22:00 <lfm> oh ok
1269 2011-03-12 09:22:05 <Diablo-D3> and debian also has the static version anyhow
1270 2011-03-12 09:22:31 <lfm> libgthread?
1271 2011-03-12 09:22:46 <Keefe> /usr/lib/libgthread-2.0.so.0 -> libgthread-2.0.so.0.2400.2
1272 2011-03-12 09:23:06 <Diablo-D3> yup thats correct
1273 2011-03-12 09:23:11 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes
1274 2011-03-12 09:23:13 <Keefe> oh wait, i'm supposed to do something to update the library cache, right?...
1275 2011-03-12 09:23:20 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: no.
1276 2011-03-12 09:23:26 <lfm> ldconfig
1277 2011-03-12 09:23:27 <Diablo-D3> apt-get already does that when its required.
1278 2011-03-12 09:23:35 <Keefe> can't hurt to try again
1279 2011-03-12 09:23:37 <Diablo-D3> [04:14:02] <Keefe> g++ -O2 -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat -g -D__WXDEBUG__ -DNOPCH -DFOURWAYSSE2 -DUSE_SSL -o bitcoind obj/nogui/util.o obj/nogui/script.o obj/nogui/db.o obj/nogui/net.o obj/nogui/irc.o obj/nogui/main.o obj/nogui/rpc.o obj/nogui/init.o cryptopp/obj/sha.o cryptopp/obj/cpu.o obj/sha256.o -Wl,-Bstatic -l boost_system -l boost_filesystem -l boost_program_options -l boost_thread -l db_cxx -l ssl -l crypto -W
1280 2011-03-12 09:23:37 <Diablo-D3> l,-Bdynamic -l gthread-2.0 -l z -l dl
1281 2011-03-12 09:23:39 <lfm> its suposed to
1282 2011-03-12 09:23:41 <Diablo-D3> this whole command is wrong, though
1283 2011-03-12 09:23:55 <Diablo-D3> -l does not allow for a space after it.
1284 2011-03-12 09:24:13 <Keefe> but why does it complain about that one among all the others with space?
1285 2011-03-12 09:24:26 <Diablo-D3> maybe it tries that one first.
1286 2011-03-12 09:24:39 <Keefe> i can check the git history and see when the makefile last changed...
1287 2011-03-12 09:25:03 <jrabbit> git blame Makefile
1288 2011-03-12 09:25:11 <Diablo-D3> lol blame
1289 2011-03-12 09:25:14 <Diablo-D3> best command ever
1290 2011-03-12 09:25:40 <Keefe> haha
1291 2011-03-12 09:26:43 <Keefe> the makefile has had those spaces for like 7 months
1292 2011-03-12 09:26:53 <Keefe> no way i'm the first to notice
1293 2011-03-12 09:27:07 <Keefe> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blame/master/makefile.unix
1294 2011-03-12 09:27:10 <lfm> the spaces are not the problem
1295 2011-03-12 09:27:18 <Diablo-D3> the spaces are pissing me off and probably a problem
1296 2011-03-12 09:27:25 <Diablo-D3> gcc has the world's most retarded command line args parser ever
1297 2011-03-12 09:27:35 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: and no, i dont remember seeing those
1298 2011-03-12 09:27:59 <Keefe> ok, i'll take out all the spaces after -l and see what happens...
1299 2011-03-12 09:28:07 <Keefe> lfm: what do you recommend i check?
1300 2011-03-12 09:28:20 <Diablo-D3> I dont like those fucking -Wl commands
1301 2011-03-12 09:28:24 <Diablo-D3> they rpobably arent causing it
1302 2011-03-12 09:28:26 <Diablo-D3> but its bullshit
1303 2011-03-12 09:29:49 <Keefe> removed spaces. same error
1304 2011-03-12 09:30:02 <lfm> theyre trying to make binaries that run on the most systems
1305 2011-03-12 09:30:05 <Diablo-D3> try removing the -Wl shit
1306 2011-03-12 09:30:16 <Keefe> including -B?
1307 2011-03-12 09:30:22 <Diablo-D3> lfm: yes, which is wrong.
1308 2011-03-12 09:30:33 <Diablo-D3> Keefe: -B isnt an argument
1309 2011-03-12 09:30:41 <Diablo-D3> -Wl,shit passes it to the linker
1310 2011-03-12 09:30:45 <Diablo-D3> its all one arg
1311 2011-03-12 09:31:08 <Keefe> g++ -O2 -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat -g -D__WXDEBUG__ -DNOPCH -DFOURWAYSSE2 -DUSE_SSL -o bitcoind obj/nogui/util.o obj/nogui/script.o obj/nogui/db.o obj/nogui/net.o obj/nogui/irc.o obj/nogui/main.o obj/nogui/rpc.o obj/nogui/init.o cryptopp/obj/sha.o cryptopp/obj/cpu.o obj/sha256.o -lboost_system -lboost_filesystem -lboost_program_options -lboost_thread -ldb_cxx -lssl -lcrypto -lgthread-2.0 -lz -ldl
1312 2011-03-12 09:31:14 <Keefe> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgthread-2.0
1313 2011-03-12 09:31:19 <Diablo-D3> what the fuck.
1314 2011-03-12 09:31:22 <Diablo-D3> ld is full of shit.
1315 2011-03-12 09:36:42 <Keefe> got it!
1316 2011-03-12 09:36:56 <Diablo-D3> what
1317 2011-03-12 09:36:56 <Keefe> apt-get install libglib2.0-dev
1318 2011-03-12 09:37:00 <Keefe> now it works
1319 2011-03-12 09:37:06 <Diablo-D3> except you dont need that
1320 2011-03-12 09:37:10 <Diablo-D3> this is a linking problem
1321 2011-03-12 09:37:19 <Keefe> then why did that fix it?
1322 2011-03-12 09:37:28 <Diablo-D3> not sure
1323 2011-03-12 09:37:31 <Keefe> that's all i did since the last failed attempt
1324 2011-03-12 09:37:42 <Diablo-D3> Im wondering how you actually compiled it, though
1325 2011-03-12 09:38:01 <Diablo-D3> since if its using glib functions, it needs the prototypes
1326 2011-03-12 09:38:10 <Diablo-D3> and all of those are compiled objects
1327 2011-03-12 09:39:09 <Keefe> it's not a perfectly fresh install of debian, so maybe something else i installed before put in the other stuff needed
1328 2011-03-12 09:39:22 <Keefe> i've probably only installed a few things
1329 2011-03-12 09:39:48 <Keefe> pyopencl and fglrx are the only ones that come to mind
1330 2011-03-12 09:40:51 <Keefe> thanks for the -dev tip, Ratchet and jrabbit
1331 2011-03-12 09:41:22 <Keefe> and thanks lfm and Diablo-D3 for your attempts to solve it
1332 2011-03-12 09:42:05 <ArtForz> hmmm, does this make sense: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4392.msg64392#msg64392
1333 2011-03-12 09:42:59 <lfm> default makefile.unix works for me without any change to the makefile
1334 2011-03-12 09:43:53 <Ratchet> my miner found its first block tonight. I can't remember how many blocks I need to wait until the btc show up in my wallet. was it 120?
1335 2011-03-12 09:44:06 <ArtForz> 120
1336 2011-03-12 09:44:10 <Ratchet> thx
1337 2011-03-12 09:44:12 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ....
1338 2011-03-12 09:44:12 <lfm> yup
1339 2011-03-12 09:44:15 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: faaawk.
1340 2011-03-12 09:44:19 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: thats 100% true
1341 2011-03-12 09:44:36 <Diablo-D3> thats also the missing piece I was trying to think of
1342 2011-03-12 09:44:48 <Diablo-D3> its impossible at this point to gain control of over 50% of the core of the network
1343 2011-03-12 09:44:57 <Aciid> rig starting up slower everytime it BSOD's, conclusion buy a SSD
1344 2011-03-12 09:45:09 <Diablo-D3> but flat out killing them all works great....
1345 2011-03-12 09:45:25 <Diablo-D3> I was going the route of just ddossing them all
1346 2011-03-12 09:45:32 TD has joined
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1352 2011-03-12 10:04:33 emanon is now known as eao
1353 2011-03-12 10:08:38 <validus> lol
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1363 2011-03-12 11:10:57 MartianW has joined
1364 2011-03-12 11:20:12 <MagicalTux> just so you know
1365 2011-03-12 11:20:21 <MagicalTux> if I go offline, it doesn't mean something big has happened
1366 2011-03-12 11:20:35 <MagicalTux> electricity company said power grid might be having troubles following the recent events
1367 2011-03-12 11:21:29 <MartianW> MagicalTux, where are you?
1368 2011-03-12 11:21:34 <MagicalTux> MartianW: Tokyo
1369 2011-03-12 11:22:27 <MagicalTux> 250km from the exploding nuclear power plant
1370 2011-03-12 11:23:10 <[Tycho]> Don't forget to take photos of mushroom cloud.
1371 2011-03-12 11:23:48 <MartianW> I wonder if Satoshi was in a Tsunami affected area of Japan.
1372 2011-03-12 11:25:25 <MagicalTux> MartianW: I'm pretty sure Satoshi do not live in Japan
1373 2011-03-12 11:26:03 <MartianW> MagicalTux, why?
1374 2011-03-12 11:28:01 <FellowTraveler> apparently the Chernobyl-style nuclear meltdown 300 km from Tokyo is going to be a much bigger issue than the earthquake/tsunami were.
1375 2011-03-12 11:28:18 <MagicalTux> MartianW: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto
1376 2011-03-12 11:28:57 <Keefe> it's annoying how they say this: "what could become be the worst nuclear incident since the catastrophic Chernobyl accident"
1377 2011-03-12 11:29:15 <Keefe> that doesn't specify whether it's worse than Chernobyl or not
1378 2011-03-12 11:29:44 <Keefe> just says it's worse than everything that has happened after and not including Chernobyl
1379 2011-03-12 11:29:46 <MagicalTux> FellowTraveler: it's 250km from Tokyo, it's a nuclear meltdown, but for now things seems to point it won't be as bad as Chernobyl (it might be too early to say anything, but I think we have better ways to deal with this kind of problems than ukraine did)
1380 2011-03-12 11:30:12 <sipa> Keefe: if it does become as bad as chernobyl, i think the question of whether it is or not, will be the least of worries
1381 2011-03-12 11:30:20 <Keefe> i know
1382 2011-03-12 11:30:33 <FellowTraveler> where will all those people go?
1383 2011-03-12 11:30:38 <FellowTraveler> and what if it gets into groundwater or whatever?
1384 2011-03-12 11:31:02 <FellowTraveler> maybe it's swept back into the oceans already by the wave
1385 2011-03-12 11:31:05 <MagicalTux> FellowTraveler: one thing I can say for sure is that people have stocked on bottled water
1386 2011-03-12 11:31:07 Ocaasi has joined
1387 2011-03-12 11:31:19 <MagicalTux> my local supermarket is out of stock of water, gaz and other supplies
1388 2011-03-12 11:31:24 <Ocaasi> I have a question about computing power, anone around...
1389 2011-03-12 11:31:27 <Ocaasi> anyone
1390 2011-03-12 11:31:53 Zarutian has joined
1391 2011-03-12 11:31:56 <ArtForz> well, ask and see if anyone answers?
1392 2011-03-12 11:31:58 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1393 2011-03-12 11:32:23 <Ocaasi> Basically, I'm wondering how the current encryption scheme will hold up to moore'law type increases in computing power. Given the exponential projections, won't it be somewhat trivial to do the calculations in, say, 50 years, let alone 150?
1394 2011-03-12 11:32:55 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
1395 2011-03-12 11:32:59 <gribble> 76193.9710474
1396 2011-03-12 11:33:20 <ArtForz> well, currently the weakest point is probably the ECDSA256 public key crypto
1397 2011-03-12 11:33:36 <sipa> that's the current difficulty - the highest possible difficulty is 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
1398 2011-03-12 11:33:40 <ArtForz> unless a *major* flaw in sha256 is found
1399 2011-03-12 11:34:01 <Ocaasi> so the encryption level could be encreased over time?
1400 2011-03-12 11:34:04 <Ocaasi> increased
1401 2011-03-12 11:34:18 <sipa> there is no encryption at all
1402 2011-03-12 11:34:35 <Ocaasi> ok, wrong term, the key length could be increased over time?
1403 2011-03-12 11:34:43 <ArtForz> iirc, yes
1404 2011-03-12 11:34:45 <MagicalTux> Ocaasi: and key algo could be changed too
1405 2011-03-12 11:34:55 <sipa> it would require a change of the protocol
1406 2011-03-12 11:35:07 <sipa> but there are nice version number bytes included in many places
1407 2011-03-12 11:35:23 <ArtForz> dont we already have the framework in place in script.cpp to use bigger ecdsa keys?
1408 2011-03-12 11:35:28 <Ocaasi> so that code can be updated 'on-the-fly'; in other words, we're not locked into a 2011 computing paradigm for the next century...
1409 2011-03-12 11:35:45 <sipa> ArtForz: i think it'd still require additional opcodes
1410 2011-03-12 11:36:32 <Ocaasi> also curious about economies of scale regarding energy and computing. what would happen if Google decided to turn its servers to making bitcoins. how would that impact the market?
1411 2011-03-12 11:37:41 <ArtForz> well, I'm not psychic, but I think thats pretty unlikely
1412 2011-03-12 11:39:41 <Ocaasi> i suppose i'm asking when/if the economics of mining btcs would ever make it so that otherwise productive capital would be diverted into it.
1413 2011-03-12 11:41:25 <ArtForz> pfff
1414 2011-03-12 11:42:24 <ArtForz> theres probably somewhere around half a million usd of hardware tied up in mining currently
1415 2011-03-12 11:45:12 <Ocaasi> that's not insignificant. is it relevant that the amount of min-able bitcoins in a given period is capped by the algorithm? would that deter mining investment or encourage it, since scarcity is guaranteed?
1416 2011-03-12 11:45:20 <ArtForz> yes
1417 2011-03-12 11:45:54 <ArtForz> no matter how much hardware you throw at it, total stays at 7200 btc/day long term
1418 2011-03-12 11:46:03 <sipa> but scarcity is what makes bitcoin's value (or its expected value in the future) high
1419 2011-03-12 11:48:33 noagendamarket has joined
1420 2011-03-12 11:48:57 <ArtForz> so return per added hardware starts to lower significantly once a large miner is a significant % of total network
1421 2011-03-12 11:49:36 <Ocaasi> but conceptually increasing the length of the key is really a critical lever. if key length is increased, it is tantamount to contractionary monetary policy, and vice/versa if key length is decresed. but you're saying that is a trivial level since the number of coins is so controlled?
1422 2011-03-12 11:49:49 <ArtForz> huh?
1423 2011-03-12 11:50:04 <Ocaasi> ok. key length determines mining cost, right?
1424 2011-03-12 11:50:10 <ArtForz> ecdsa key length has nothing to do with mining/generation
1425 2011-03-12 11:50:31 <Ocaasi> ok, can you explain why mining is 'expensive'?
1426 2011-03-12 11:50:44 <sipa> because there is only 1440 BTC per day to be earned
1427 2011-03-12 11:50:57 <sipa> so people compete computationally to get as much from that as possible
1428 2011-03-12 11:51:02 <Keefe> mining is tons of SHA256
1429 2011-03-12 11:51:04 <sipa> eh 7200 BTC
1430 2011-03-12 11:51:15 <ArtForz> yeah, 144 blocks @ 50btc = 7200 btc
1431 2011-03-12 11:51:41 <Ocaasi> but what exactly is being 'computed' during mining?
1432 2011-03-12 11:51:51 <sipa> nothing, actually
1433 2011-03-12 11:51:56 <Keefe> SHA256 hashes of a chunk of data
1434 2011-03-12 11:51:56 <ArtForz> nothing useful
1435 2011-03-12 11:52:01 <sipa> it's just a computation to prove you spent work
1436 2011-03-12 11:52:04 akem has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1437 2011-03-12 11:52:18 <Ocaasi> so it's completely arbitrary, unconnected to security keys?
1438 2011-03-12 11:52:23 <sipa> yes
1439 2011-03-12 11:52:57 <Ocaasi> ok, just out of curiosity, who determines that SHA256 is the appropriate amount of junk work to figure out rather than more or less?
1440 2011-03-12 11:53:06 <ArtForz> everyone
1441 2011-03-12 11:53:44 <Ocaasi> you mean no central group decides what amount of work is requried for generation? how could that be distributed?
1442 2011-03-12 11:53:50 <ArtForz> difficulty is adjusted every 2016 blocks, based on actual time for those 2016 blocks vs. 14 days nominal
1443 2011-03-12 11:53:55 <sipa> because everyone does that calculation
1444 2011-03-12 11:53:58 <sipa> everyone has the block chain
1445 2011-03-12 11:54:01 <ArtForz> yep
1446 2011-03-12 11:54:08 <Keefe> sha256(sha256(data)) won't be compromised anytime soon, but if it ever were and we had to switch to a different hashing algo, it would affect the cost of mining
1447 2011-03-12 11:54:15 <sipa> and the protocol defines how to derive the difficulty level from the block chain
1448 2011-03-12 11:54:15 <noagendamarket> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110311165416AAuptsk can someone answer this ?
1449 2011-03-12 11:54:58 <Ocaasi> does the protocol set a desired difficulty level so that it could be adjusted in light of a certain constant amount of computing time?
1450 2011-03-12 11:55:05 jeremias has joined
1451 2011-03-12 11:55:11 <ArtForz> no
1452 2011-03-12 11:55:37 <ArtForz> basic algorithm is difficulty = last difficulty * (14 days / time taken for last 2016 blocks)
1453 2011-03-12 11:55:45 <ArtForz> calculated every 2016 blocks
1454 2011-03-12 11:56:26 <ArtForz> so difficulty gets adjusted to keep block generation rate at 2016 blocks / 14 days = 144 blocks/day
1455 2011-03-12 11:56:57 <Ocaasi> wow, so the difficulty level is what keeps the monetary inflation constant...
1456 2011-03-12 11:57:03 <Keefe> the time measurement is based on the blocks' timestamps, so the formula will come up with the exact same answer for everyone that has the same block chain
1457 2011-03-12 11:57:12 <sipa> Ocaasi: actually, no
1458 2011-03-12 11:57:17 <Ocaasi> oh
1459 2011-03-12 11:57:32 <sipa> there is an additional rule that even 210000 blocks the subsidy (currently 50 BTC / block) is multiplied by 0.5
1460 2011-03-12 11:57:34 <Keefe> um, i'd say yes
1461 2011-03-12 11:57:38 <Ocaasi> the protocol which determines the difficulty level keeps inflation constant?
1462 2011-03-12 11:57:40 <ArtForz> err, well... I'd say it does
1463 2011-03-12 11:57:43 <Keefe> plus the halving thing
1464 2011-03-12 11:57:48 <ArtForz> yep
1465 2011-03-12 11:58:02 <sipa> that on itself is enough to keep the maximal amount of BTC in circulation below a predefined maximum
1466 2011-03-12 11:58:46 <ArtForz> it's really a quite elegant solution
1467 2011-03-12 11:58:48 <sipa> the difficulty is 1) a way of limiting the speed blocks are generated and 2) as a consequence, approximately limits BTC creation to 144*subsidy
1468 2011-03-12 11:58:52 <sipa> + per day
1469 2011-03-12 11:59:01 <ArtForz> yes
1470 2011-03-12 11:59:49 <ArtForz> also, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Blocks
1471 2011-03-12 11:59:53 <Ocaasi> ok, i missed the halving thing, but I thin that's extraneous
1472 2011-03-12 12:00:14 <Keefe> the halving thing is what results in only 21m btc eventually
1473 2011-03-12 12:00:30 <Ocaasi> oh, it's the logarithmic part
1474 2011-03-12 12:00:31 <Keefe> otherwise, the money supply would grow forever
1475 2011-03-12 12:00:50 <ArtForz> woo, meltdown confirmed
1476 2011-03-12 12:01:03 <Keefe> as in total breach of containment?
1477 2011-03-12 12:01:29 <Ocaasi> and does any one person have control of the difficulty determining protocol. obviously the concern here is about monetary inflation--bane of Austrian economists everywhere--and if someone can change the protocol to increase blocks/day, it's a problem
1478 2011-03-12 12:01:43 <ArtForz> no
1479 2011-03-12 12:01:51 <Keefe> all the rules are "democratic"
1480 2011-03-12 12:02:12 <ArtForz> clients only accept blocks with what they think is the correct difficulty
1481 2011-03-12 12:02:32 <ArtForz> so to change the rules you'd effectively have to confirm a vast majority of users/traders to switch
1482 2011-03-12 12:02:35 <Keefe> if you can convince more than half of miners (measured by computing power) to use different rules, you may be able to change the parameters
1483 2011-03-12 12:03:00 <Keefe> well, you'd split the blockchain
1484 2011-03-12 12:03:03 <Ocaasi> ok, on that point. in democracies, people are often fooled into accepting stimulus or inflationary monetary policy. would anything persuade users that increasing the rate of block generation is a good thing?
1485 2011-03-12 12:03:32 <Keefe> like a region seceding from a nation? :)
1486 2011-03-12 12:03:58 <ArtForz> well, reports are a bit unclear, there's statements about a white-hot molten mass where the core used to be...
1487 2011-03-12 12:04:29 <Keefe> i'm also concerned that someday a large majority of miners could be convinced to freeze some unsavory person's money
1488 2011-03-12 12:04:31 <Ocaasi> i suppose, if that seceding nation realized that on the margin it would have an advantage with other nations, so long as they were still accepting the inflated currency
1489 2011-03-12 12:04:44 <ArtForz> question is, how did they determine that if it *isn't* a total breach ...
1490 2011-03-12 12:04:55 <Ocaasi> Keefe: that majority would have to be 50%?
1491 2011-03-12 12:05:02 <Ocaasi> or great?
1492 2011-03-12 12:05:20 <Keefe> any % would result in a chain split, i think
1493 2011-03-12 12:05:27 <ArtForz> yes
1494 2011-03-12 12:05:32 <ArtForz> you'd effectively have 2 split chains
1495 2011-03-12 12:05:46 <ArtForz> and each client decides for itself which is the correct one, depending on its own rules
1496 2011-03-12 12:05:46 <Keefe> but if you end up being a part of just 10% of total power, you're money could become worthless
1497 2011-03-12 12:05:56 <Ocaasi> that seems unlikely. the frozen individual would have to be such a douche in order for people to not take his money. usually people's politics don't get in the way of them accepting money.
1498 2011-03-12 12:06:14 <Keefe> would depend on other factors, and who would accept one fork or the other
1499 2011-03-12 12:06:19 <ArtForz> your</grammar nazi>
1500 2011-03-12 12:07:00 <Keefe> :( i'm slipping. i'm usually really good with grammar
1501 2011-03-12 12:07:05 <ArtForz> and I severely doubt people already holding bitcoins would be willing to switch
1502 2011-03-12 12:07:21 <ArtForz> why accept increased devaluation of your savings?
1503 2011-03-12 12:08:30 <Ocaasi> okay, hypothetical Jim Crow scenarior. a group of BTC users decide that Blue people's money is no good here. What happens?
1504 2011-03-12 12:08:46 <Ocaasi> scenario
1505 2011-03-12 12:09:43 <Ocaasi> Keefe: that's basically your individual-freeze scenario writ large
1506 2011-03-12 12:10:09 <Keefe> keep in mind that it's not so easy to associate bitcoin addresses with real-life identities
1507 2011-03-12 12:10:12 <ArtForz> hmmm, prime minister denied there was a meltdown... whatever
1508 2011-03-12 12:10:23 <Ocaasi> i think the economics make it unlikely anyway, since refusing anyone's money means refusing their business and losing out.
1509 2011-03-12 12:10:36 <Keefe> and sets a bad precedent
1510 2011-03-12 12:11:16 <Keefe> though that doesn't stop the US gov from freezing assets today
1511 2011-03-12 12:11:30 <ArtForz> yep, I also severely doubt you could convince enough miners to deny certain source/destination addrs to really affect anything
1512 2011-03-12 12:11:36 <Keefe> but those actions aren't usually democratic
1513 2011-03-12 12:12:07 <Ocaasi> Are there any national laws which operate on the current fiat monetary system, the lack of which, would have negative consequences for BTCs?
1514 2011-03-12 12:12:14 <Ocaasi> i.e. legal tender laws
1515 2011-03-12 12:12:41 <Ocaasi> in other words, can this work without governments (ironic, since that's kind of the whole purpose)
1516 2011-03-12 12:13:10 <ArtForz> seems to work fine so far
1517 2011-03-12 12:13:30 <Keefe> my concern though is related to how centralized mining power could become someday. if 20 years from now, 90% of power is held by a dozen national banks, how hard would it be for them to agree to freeze someone's money (assuming they can identify it)
1518 2011-03-12 12:14:00 <Ocaasi> you seem to be conflating mining power and banks. why would they be the same?
1519 2011-03-12 12:14:27 <Ocaasi> gold-diggers and gold-holders are different folks
1520 2011-03-12 12:14:50 <Keefe> i assume big banks will someday be the ones with the most interest in protecting bitcoin
1521 2011-03-12 12:15:18 <Keefe> the largest holdings, etc
1522 2011-03-12 12:15:47 <Keefe> the most able to support huge computing clusters
1523 2011-03-12 12:16:14 <Ocaasi> but protecting bitcoin and mining it are separate. and if banks can't affect the rate of BTC generation due to the difficulty protocol, what incentive would they have to be BTC generators at all
1524 2011-03-12 12:16:35 <Keefe> mining is protecting
1525 2011-03-12 12:16:48 <Ocaasi> i don't follow that connection
1526 2011-03-12 12:17:00 <Keefe> defending it against various attacks such as double-spending
1527 2011-03-12 12:17:31 <Ocaasi> i thought that was the 'democratic' defense, nothing to do with generation...
1528 2011-03-12 12:17:57 <Keefe> yes, but if someone comes along with more power than everyone else combined, they get >50% of the "vote"
1529 2011-03-12 12:18:35 <Keefe> remember, the democratic part has nothing to do with number of users. only processing power
1530 2011-03-12 12:18:45 <ArtForz> Keefe: depends
1531 2011-03-12 12:18:55 <Ocaasi> i think that's confusing computing power with network representation. you can be the strongest computer but only have one node in the network
1532 2011-03-12 12:18:58 TD has joined
1533 2011-03-12 12:19:09 <ArtForz> it really depends what parts you're talking about
1534 2011-03-12 12:19:40 <ArtForz> with >50% hashing power you can keep transactions out of the chain by forking the chain
1535 2011-03-12 12:19:51 Jeroenz0r_ has joined
1536 2011-03-12 12:19:54 <ArtForz> you still can't change the basic rules re. transaction validity or generation rate
1537 2011-03-12 12:20:14 <Keefe> Ocaasi: what distinguishes 10 nodes with 1 ghps each and 1 node with 10 ghps?
1538 2011-03-12 12:20:30 <ArtForz> for that you need to pretty much get everyone to use a client with those different rules
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1540 2011-03-12 12:20:47 Jeroenz0r_ is now known as Jeroenz0r
1541 2011-03-12 12:20:54 <Keefe> both will find blocks at the same speed, and have the same ability to cause problems
1542 2011-03-12 12:21:14 <Ocaasi> Keefe: one, i'm fairly new at this, but i think it matters when dealing with transactions. the 10 nodes would agree with eachother, while the 1 node would get the answer first but not have anyone to trade with
1543 2011-03-12 12:21:53 <Keefe> ok, i see your point
1544 2011-03-12 12:22:15 Jeroenz0r has quit (Client Quit)
1545 2011-03-12 12:22:56 <Keefe> sure, the network might split 50/50 by power, but if one side is just one big bank, and the other side is a million people, which currency will be more useful :)
1546 2011-03-12 12:23:16 Jeroenz0r has joined
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1548 2011-03-12 12:23:16 Jeroenz0r has joined
1549 2011-03-12 12:23:17 <Ocaasi> keefe: so the 1 node would still be in a dominant position regarding new money, but not old transactions. and that power is limited by both competition and the difficulty/generation protocol
1550 2011-03-12 12:23:34 MartianW has joined
1551 2011-03-12 12:23:43 <Ocaasi> Keefe: it depends it that bank is holding all of their money!
1552 2011-03-12 12:24:02 <Ocaasi> if
1553 2011-03-12 12:24:13 <sipa> hmm, i'm not able to download the testnet blockchain anymore
1554 2011-03-12 12:25:07 molec-droid has joined
1555 2011-03-12 12:27:47 <sipa> anyone have a nice IP running a testnet node?
1556 2011-03-12 12:30:44 <Ocaasi> how frequently does the difficulty protocol update. hypothetically, if it takes 10ghps to generate 144 blocks today, what if MIT comes on line with their super quantum computer tomorrow...could they generate thousands or hundreds of thousands of blocks before the difficulty protocol updates?
1557 2011-03-12 12:31:24 <ArtForz> no
1558 2011-03-12 12:31:35 <ArtForz> adjustment is every 2016 blocks, note, blocks, not fixed timespan
1559 2011-03-12 12:31:42 <Ocaasi> excellent
1560 2011-03-12 12:31:56 <ArtForz> max adjustment is limited to *4 /4 though
1561 2011-03-12 12:32:10 xelister has joined
1562 2011-03-12 12:32:37 <ArtForz> we hit the *4 limit once so far
1563 2011-03-12 12:32:48 <Ocaasi> so at best you could only "steal" 2016 blocks, and then increasingly marginal amounts over the next several adjustments
1564 2011-03-12 12:32:54 <ArtForz> yep
1565 2011-03-12 12:33:27 <ArtForz> that would also be a way to "troll"
1566 2011-03-12 12:33:50 <ArtForz> throw a shitload of hashratre at it, wait for difficulty to adjust, leave
1567 2011-03-12 12:34:16 <Blitzboom> MM-style
1568 2011-03-12 12:34:25 <xelister> trolldiff
1569 2011-03-12 12:34:29 <ArtForz> actually MM is still a lot too small for that
1570 2011-03-12 12:34:52 <ArtForz> you'd need at least 2Th/s to make it effective
1571 2011-03-12 12:35:01 <Blitzboom> still, blocks are slower now
1572 2011-03-12 12:35:28 <ArtForz> yes
1573 2011-03-12 12:35:38 <ArtForz> about 20% slower than nominal.
1574 2011-03-12 12:35:50 <ArtForz> big deal.
1575 2011-03-12 12:36:18 <Blitzboom> i didnât say it would affect us
1576 2011-03-12 12:36:39 [Noodles] has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
1577 2011-03-12 12:36:45 <Blitzboom> if a block takes 10 minutes or one hour isnât that important
1578 2011-03-12 12:36:53 <ArtForz> yes, of course adding/removing decent anount of hashpower affects block generation rate
1579 2011-03-12 12:37:00 Jeroenz0r has quit (Quit: Jeroenz0r)
1580 2011-03-12 12:37:02 <ArtForz> but 10 or 12 minutes doesnt really make much of a difference
1581 2011-03-12 12:37:13 Jeroenz0r has joined
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1583 2011-03-12 12:37:13 Jeroenz0r has joined
1584 2011-03-12 12:37:14 <Blitzboom> sure
1585 2011-03-12 12:37:31 <xelister> Y U NOT CONFIRM MY TX SOON ??
1586 2011-03-12 12:37:49 <ArtForz> to cause significant slowdonws you'd have to throw a large multiple of current total network power at it for two+ difficulty periods
1587 2011-03-12 12:38:50 <xelister> monday Ñï¼ï¾Ðï¾Ñï¼Y U DIFF GO UP? FOREVER POOR
1588 2011-03-12 12:39:02 <xelister> friday Ñï¼ï¾Ðï¾Ñï¼Y U DIFF GO DOWN? FOREVER WAIT TX
1589 2011-03-12 12:39:06 <ArtForz> 4x would probably be enough to cause a decent slowdown, > 10x would really suck (2 hours per confirmation ?)
1590 2011-03-12 12:39:55 <ArtForz> but who has 5Th/s just sitting around ...
1591 2011-03-12 12:40:35 <Ocaasi> but the worst thing that would do if give one actor 2016 ish blocks and then make the next few block generations take a really long time. so worst case scenario is it would be mildly deflationary relative to the planned expansion
1592 2011-03-12 12:40:42 <Ocaasi> is give one actor
1593 2011-03-12 12:43:26 <ArtForz> one major problem I see is the emergence of a mining cartel pool
1594 2011-03-12 12:43:41 <xelister> Cartel Pool. ME GUSTA
1595 2011-03-12 12:44:29 <ArtForz> basic cartel mode, aka fork the chain whenever someone else finds a block
1596 2011-03-12 12:45:05 <ArtForz> then say "hey miners, join us and get 80% of expected return or don't and get 0%"
1597 2011-03-12 12:45:18 <xelister> so basically you do not worry that someone found block 102 after yours 101, you ignore his 102 and try to generate say your102+your103 faster then anyone else makes 103 based on his 102?
1598 2011-03-12 12:45:24 <ArtForz> yes
1599 2011-03-12 12:45:45 <ArtForz> if you have > 50%, you can pull that off quite reliably
1600 2011-03-12 12:45:52 <xelister> wouldnt a totall pinning prevent that...
1601 2011-03-12 12:46:11 <xelister> if your client sees a block it refuses newer blocks not based on that preious one
1602 2011-03-12 12:46:14 <ArtForz> no
1603 2011-03-12 12:46:23 <ArtForz> rememebr, there can be legitimate forks
1604 2011-03-12 12:46:26 <sipa> ArtForz: actually, if they have 51% of the network power, and ignore all blocks by others, they actually limit the difficulty as well, effectively giving higher profit to those mining for them, compared to the case where everyone is mining solo
1605 2011-03-12 12:46:34 <ArtForz> yep
1606 2011-03-12 12:47:06 <sipa> still no testnet block chain :(
1607 2011-03-12 12:47:21 <ArtForz> effective network hashrate would be == cartel hashrate, difficulty adjusts accordingly
1608 2011-03-12 12:47:39 <Ocaasi> artfoz, i expected the same objection. if 102 is invalid, why would 103 based on 102 be valid?
1609 2011-03-12 12:47:56 <ArtForz> why is 102 invalid?
1610 2011-03-12 12:48:17 <ArtForz> two miners independently finding a block isnt that rare
1611 2011-03-12 12:48:17 <Ocaasi> um, maybe 'isolated' is the better term. if isolated to the cartel
1612 2011-03-12 12:48:49 <ArtForz> rule is "chain with higher difficulty wins"
1613 2011-03-12 12:48:56 <ArtForz> well, higher sum-of difficulty
1614 2011-03-12 12:49:00 <ArtForz> doesnt matter really
1615 2011-03-12 12:49:15 <ArtForz> end result is, if theres 2 102s, the one with 103 after it is the "right" one
1616 2011-03-12 12:49:20 <Ocaasi> which makes being a cartel a bit of a losing proposition, right, since it requires doing more difficult computation?
1617 2011-03-12 12:49:26 <ArtForz> no
1618 2011-03-12 12:49:47 <ArtForz> fork blocks dont count toward difficulty calc
1619 2011-03-12 12:50:19 <Ocaasi> ok, i vaguely understand. well, what is the respone to your cartel scenario. why isn't that a problem, or is it a problem?
1620 2011-03-12 12:50:27 <ArtForz> it is a problem
1621 2011-03-12 12:51:11 <Ocaasi> assuming it is a problem due to the protocol itself, are there solutions to it, perhaps also involving the protocol?
1622 2011-03-12 12:51:43 <ArtForz> possibly, but so far I havent found any techincal measure that would prevent it
1623 2011-03-12 12:52:20 <Ocaasi> i think this goes back to generation/computation versus network issues. the cartel may be more 'powerful' but isn't it also isolated? why would anyone else care what a cartel does? why not just ignore it and go about trading with everyone else?
1624 2011-03-12 12:52:40 <ArtForz> because it still produces valid blocks according to the rules
1625 2011-03-12 12:53:01 <ArtForz> so all clients would accept cartel-generated blocks
1626 2011-03-12 12:53:29 <ArtForz> and it's impossible for a client to tell if a block is from the cartel or not
1627 2011-03-12 12:53:29 molec-droid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1628 2011-03-12 12:53:55 <sipa> you may guess
1629 2011-03-12 12:54:22 <sipa> if a block ignores a recent other block, chances are higher that it is from the cartel
1630 2011-03-12 12:54:28 <ArtForz> yes
1631 2011-03-12 12:54:43 <ArtForz> or maybe it's a legit block and the *other* block was from the cartel
1632 2011-03-12 12:54:48 <sipa> true
1633 2011-03-12 12:54:58 <Ocaasi> ok, different question. if the cartel can't make 102 before 'the other guy' why would they be able to make 102 and 103 faster than others could make 103 based on the other guy's 102?
1634 2011-03-12 12:55:20 <ArtForz> because they have more hashrate than everyone else combined
1635 2011-03-12 12:56:41 <Ocaasi> ok, so i'm convinced the cartel can get their first, but it still seems like they'll be isolated or at least come into conflict with clients that used other 102 as a base. who 'wins' in that conflict?
1636 2011-03-12 12:56:45 <Ocaasi> there
1637 2011-03-12 12:57:32 <ArtForz> simple, if theres 2 102s, clients (and miners) will accept whichever they see first as valid
1638 2011-03-12 12:58:03 <ArtForz> the moment a 103 comes along, the 102 it's based one is considered valid and miners working on fidning a 103 based on the other 102 switch
1639 2011-03-12 12:58:45 <ArtForz> it has to be that way, otherwise the chain would fork into nothingness quickly
1640 2011-03-12 12:59:52 <ArtForz> and yes, it works, a single 5770 is enough to try it on testnet ;)
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1645 2011-03-12 13:00:28 <Ocaasi> a mining cartel is really a server cartel, right?
1646 2011-03-12 13:00:35 <ArtForz> not really
1647 2011-03-12 13:00:42 <Ocaasi> how different?
1648 2011-03-12 13:00:55 justmoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1649 2011-03-12 13:01:05 <ArtForz> mining cartel is about having a majority of hashrate, not #nodes or anything
1650 2011-03-12 13:01:53 <ArtForz> basically just a bunch of miners saying "we dont accept blocks created by anyone not part of the cartel"
1651 2011-03-12 13:01:55 justmoon_ is now known as justmoon
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1654 2011-03-12 13:08:15 <Ocaasi> so the notion here is that decentralization breeds security, but this cartel issue suggests that decentralization +openness is a target for manipulation. it's basically a standard monopoly problem, right? i wonder what austrian theory suggests about natural monoplies, since mainstream economists think only overarching gov.'t can prevent them.
1655 2011-03-12 13:09:13 <noagendamarket> well if they go to far they will wreck it and everyone will abandon the block chain
1656 2011-03-12 13:09:30 <noagendamarket> thus their coins will be worthless
1657 2011-03-12 13:09:48 <xelister> ubuntu is shit
1658 2011-03-12 13:11:58 <Ocaasi> noagendamarket: how could everyone abandon it if clients automatically accept whatever comes first and is valid?
1659 2011-03-12 13:13:13 <noagendamarket> well it would soon be known that no other miners were getting coins wouldnt it ?
1660 2011-03-12 13:14:26 <Ocaasi> ArtForz: does that sound like reasonable protection? the cost of the cartel compared to how long it would be able to operate without everyone just abandoning it would make it undesirable to pursue?
1661 2011-03-12 13:15:11 <ArtForz> not sure
1662 2011-03-12 13:15:21 <xelister> Ubuntu is like typical American, fat stupid and think its the best
1663 2011-03-12 13:15:36 <FellowTraveler> any bitcoin developers here? I have a couple of Q's
1664 2011-03-12 13:16:01 <xelister> DEFAULT UBUNTU INSTALLATION can totally hand 2core computer due to auto running SHIT like "sematinc search crap" (100%hdd, 100%cpu), ubuntu-software(100%hdd) and others
1665 2011-03-12 13:16:02 <sipa> FellowTraveler: enough people with technical knowledge, probably
1666 2011-03-12 13:16:29 <FellowTraveler> I'm wondering if there is a Bitcoin API in C++ that I can basically do all the functions in a few easy calls
1667 2011-03-12 13:16:47 <sipa> not as far as i know
1668 2011-03-12 13:16:57 <FellowTraveler> Basically should be able to send a payment to an address, receive a payment and verify number of blocks, and maybe that's all it really needs to do
1669 2011-03-12 13:17:06 <TD> there's no formal API
1670 2011-03-12 13:17:09 <FellowTraveler> What about a command-line tool ?
1671 2011-03-12 13:17:12 <TD> except for the JSON-RPC API
1672 2011-03-12 13:17:16 <FellowTraveler> or script or lib
1673 2011-03-12 13:17:19 <TD> yes, there is that
1674 2011-03-12 13:17:22 <TD> lots of those
1675 2011-03-12 13:17:43 <TD> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_(JSON-RPC)
1676 2011-03-12 13:17:58 <FellowTraveler> how does the JSON-RPC work exactly⦠I run a bitcoind process, and then connect to it over Rpc loop back local port?
1677 2011-03-12 13:18:04 <sipa> yes
1678 2011-03-12 13:18:18 <sipa> it's just tcp/ip
1679 2011-03-12 13:18:18 <FellowTraveler> so my own software would have to distribute the bitcoind or whatever, if it's not already running.
1680 2011-03-12 13:18:46 <sipa> or provide a bitcoind service running somewhere
1681 2011-03-12 13:18:59 <TD> correct
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1686 2011-03-12 13:20:06 <FellowTraveler> if I already downloaded and ran the normal Bitcoin client, does that mean that the JSON-Rpc server is already running on my machine in the background somewhere?
1687 2011-03-12 13:20:23 <TD> no, you have to specify command line flags to enable it
1688 2011-03-12 13:21:42 <sipa> FellowTraveler: bitcoin by default is only a GUI, bitcoind is the json-rpc server, and bitcoin -server is both at once
1689 2011-03-12 13:24:37 mundkur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1691 2011-03-12 13:26:18 <FellowTraveler> does anyone know of a java wrapper for bitcoind ?
1692 2011-03-12 13:26:29 amvjob has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1693 2011-03-12 13:26:45 <sipa> there is a separate implementation bij TD in Java
1694 2011-03-12 13:26:58 <TD> yes, it's not the same though.
1695 2011-03-12 13:27:05 <TD> there are a few json-rpc wrappers floating around
1696 2011-03-12 13:27:17 <FellowTraveler> Basically I'd like code in C++ or Java, that lets me send and receive bitcoin payments by address.
1697 2011-03-12 13:27:25 <TD> bitcoinj allows that
1698 2011-03-12 13:27:28 <TD> with a bunch of caveats
1699 2011-03-12 13:27:28 <FellowTraveler> I don't really care if it uses the Rpc or whatever.
1700 2011-03-12 13:27:41 <TD> namely that the code is still very new and it doesn't handle some things properly yet
1701 2011-03-12 13:27:44 <FellowTraveler> just as long as I can call it, it can be a black box preferably.
1702 2011-03-12 13:27:44 <TD> for instance, block chain re-orgs
1703 2011-03-12 13:27:48 <TD> so i wouldn't trust it with lots of money
1704 2011-03-12 13:27:57 <TD> also it has to download the block chain every time the app starts up
1705 2011-03-12 13:28:03 <TD> etc etc.
1706 2011-03-12 13:28:09 <TD> you're probably better off with a wrapper api for now
1707 2011-03-12 13:28:32 <FellowTraveler> Sounds like I want bitcoind running, and then I'm calling an API that makes the Rpc calls
1708 2011-03-12 13:28:43 <FellowTraveler> that would be ideal, just a few easy java functions that do that work for me
1709 2011-03-12 13:28:51 <FellowTraveler> bitcoinj falls into that category?
1710 2011-03-12 13:29:11 <TD> no
1711 2011-03-12 13:29:12 <TD> well
1712 2011-03-12 13:29:19 <TD> yes but with caveats. for now you might want http://bitcoin-client.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bitcoin-client/
1713 2011-03-12 13:29:26 <TD> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin-client/
1714 2011-03-12 13:29:29 <TD> i haven't used it myself
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1723 2011-03-12 13:58:04 <mizerydearia> Kiba`, http://random.witcoin.com/p/391/Lifes-Purpose has a typo in tag
1724 2011-03-12 14:01:58 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1725 2011-03-12 14:02:09 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if applegeeks is dead
1726 2011-03-12 14:07:36 <mizerydearia> gah, 4chan links should cease... especially when they become useless very shortly afterwards... especially from 7 hours ago
1727 2011-03-12 14:11:33 <validus> im glad that either im too old or was not on pc's during the 4chan craze
1728 2011-03-12 14:11:37 * validus thanks the inet gods
1729 2011-03-12 14:11:58 <xelister> hehe
1730 2011-03-12 14:12:03 <xelister> Americans are fucking idiots :D
1731 2011-03-12 14:12:08 <xelister> http://i.imgur.com/o9hr8.jpg O_o< LOL
1732 2011-03-12 14:12:24 <validus> http://www.recklesstortuga.com/video/online-gamer-s1-ep-1 <-- go watch all umpteen of those
1733 2011-03-12 14:13:10 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1734 2011-03-12 14:13:38 <xelister> validus: "the video you are trying to view can not be viewed from your location". Is this that you-have-to-be-in-USA-lol shit video site?
1735 2011-03-12 14:13:57 <validus> its not my fault if your country censors things
1736 2011-03-12 14:14:07 <noagendamarket> fuck censortards
1737 2011-03-12 14:14:10 <validus> OMG bad language *censor*
1738 2011-03-12 14:14:14 <validus> OMG diss ona girl *censor*
1739 2011-03-12 14:14:19 <validus> omg online gaming *censor*
1740 2011-03-12 14:14:34 <validus> im old enough to make my own decisions of what i should or should not look/see/hear
1741 2011-03-12 14:14:43 <validus> dont get mad if your country treats you as a 12 year old :P
1742 2011-03-12 14:14:46 <xelister> validus: its not my country, its that faggy video site
1743 2011-03-12 14:14:54 <validus> works fine for me
1744 2011-03-12 14:14:55 <xelister> anyway
1745 2011-03-12 14:15:01 <xelister> Americans are fucking idiots lol O_o< LOL
1746 2011-03-12 14:15:03 <validus> works fine for anyone else that i posted to
1747 2011-03-12 14:15:05 <xelister> http://i.imgur.com/o9hr8.jpg
1748 2011-03-12 14:19:02 <noagendamarket> hmm its not because they are americans its because they are asshole humans :)
1749 2011-03-12 14:19:24 <validus> and hwat does being american have to do with that site? might as well crack on the UK since they have a UK dude on there to
1750 2011-03-12 14:19:39 <validus> and if you cant bypass a countries limitations then im not the one sucking
1751 2011-03-12 14:20:34 <xelister> validus: this kind of attitude "we are sons of god, there be dragons. we kill people in iraq O_o< LOL" seems to be noticibly higher in USA/UK then in less evil countries, don't you think?
1752 2011-03-12 14:20:46 <validus> your going to troll me about a war now?
1753 2011-03-12 14:20:46 <validus> lol
1754 2011-03-12 14:20:50 <validus> your retarded
1755 2011-03-12 14:21:00 <validus> omg american. KEEEELL HIIIM
1756 2011-03-12 14:21:34 <xelister> americans can be 'trolled' for being evil invadors as long as they invide other countries
1757 2011-03-12 14:21:42 <validus> blah blah blah blah
1758 2011-03-12 14:21:46 <xelister> which, it seems, is something USA always doeas basically
1759 2011-03-12 14:21:52 <noagendamarket> lol
1760 2011-03-12 14:21:58 <validus> and im sure your countries history is all neat and tidy
1761 2011-03-12 14:22:00 <validus> crumpets and tea
1762 2011-03-12 14:22:11 <noagendamarket> my country= convicts
1763 2011-03-12 14:22:12 <validus> troll luke-jr he likes it more
1764 2011-03-12 14:22:13 <xelister> USA is the most aggressive country that exists now
1765 2011-03-12 14:22:18 <noagendamarket> and prostitutes
1766 2011-03-12 14:22:22 <validus> ya and the one country that will fuck your ass up to
1767 2011-03-12 14:22:24 <validus> so start a war
1768 2011-03-12 14:22:26 <xelister> is there other country that attacks everyone ALL THE TIME ?
1769 2011-03-12 14:22:40 <validus> theres tons you just dont hear about it in the news
1770 2011-03-12 14:23:15 <xelister> name any country in EU that started 2 major wars in lasst 20 years
1771 2011-03-12 14:23:36 <xelister> or anywhere in civilized world
1772 2011-03-12 14:24:04 <validus> if your so worried. train for a job their killing civilians for over there and goto work. you wanna be their friend. what do you have to lose
1773 2011-03-12 14:24:04 <validus> ?
1774 2011-03-12 14:24:13 <xelister> name any civlized-world country that killed over 100.000 civilians like USA
1775 2011-03-12 14:24:15 <validus> if not then stfu
1776 2011-03-12 14:24:32 <validus> god i hate hippies . but foreign hippies are even worst
1777 2011-03-12 14:24:49 <xelister> your previous sentence was not even gramatically correct
1778 2011-03-12 14:24:53 <xelister> no idea what you ment
1779 2011-03-12 14:24:55 <validus> and i care?
1780 2011-03-12 14:24:57 <noagendamarket> whats hippy about not liking war ?
1781 2011-03-12 14:25:08 <xelister> validus: are you american fag?
1782 2011-03-12 14:25:11 <xelister> americafag:
1783 2011-03-12 14:25:14 <xelister> - "war is fine"
1784 2011-03-12 14:25:19 <validus> noagendamarket: nothing im just getting a rise
1785 2011-03-12 14:25:19 <validus> lol
1786 2011-03-12 14:25:24 <noagendamarket> lol
1787 2011-03-12 14:25:36 <xelister> - "17 years old kissing are OMG PEDOPHILES" and copying a dvd is OMG PIRCAY - kill them! arrest for 100 years! 1000,000,0000 USD penalty
1788 2011-03-12 14:25:54 <xelister> given above 2 point definiton, are you an moralfag, validus?
1789 2011-03-12 14:25:57 <validus> your country is blocking a website and your yelling about usa? theres not even anything wrong on that
1790 2011-03-12 14:26:10 <validus> on that i mean the website
1791 2011-03-12 14:26:17 <validus> so whose country is the moral fag
1792 2011-03-12 14:26:20 <ArtForz> it's not his country, it's the stupid-ass american site
1793 2011-03-12 14:26:22 <validus> ya exactly. shhh
1794 2011-03-12 14:26:26 <noagendamarket> lol
1795 2011-03-12 14:26:45 <noagendamarket> geography fail
1796 2011-03-12 14:26:49 <ArtForz> just tested from .de and .se
1797 2011-03-12 14:26:50 <xelister> we do not have websites filtering in Poland. And if we would, then my country would suck cocks. But since I am not brainwashed retard "derp erp have to be patriot NO MATTER what my country do" I would just say I live in shit-country, without avoiding the truth :)
1798 2011-03-12 14:26:54 <noagendamarket> nothing exists outside the US
1799 2011-03-12 14:27:19 <validus> well then youtube or yell your babble at them
1800 2011-03-12 14:27:24 <Ocaasi> it may be easier to admit you live in a shit country if you live in poland. no offense.
1801 2011-03-12 14:27:34 <validus> dont sit there and try to attack me cuz of a website
1802 2011-03-12 14:27:42 <xelister> Ocaasi: USA is far more shit country then PL btw, about freedom of people
1803 2011-03-12 14:27:42 <validus> wtf is your thinking in your mindset?
1804 2011-03-12 14:27:48 <ArtForz> yep, yet another "OMG forrners stealing out precious EYEPEE" video site
1805 2011-03-12 14:28:17 <validus> so everywhere else is crystal clear never done nothing bad. but usa is OMG the fucking devil
1806 2011-03-12 14:28:21 <ArtForz> and for the fucking "my country is better than yours" shit, they *all* suck
1807 2011-03-12 14:28:33 <validus> and all i see is that kinda shit from other countries
1808 2011-03-12 14:28:33 <xelister> validus: calm down and read backlog, I said you are americafag since you seemed to support war etc. That website was other subject mostly. (It just reminded me the other thing that USA sucks about - censorhisp and no fredom)
1809 2011-03-12 14:28:39 <validus> im better than you, usa sucks, your an USAnian
1810 2011-03-12 14:28:41 <validus> blah blah blah
1811 2011-03-12 14:28:45 <validus> take your hate speech the fuck somewhere else
1812 2011-03-12 14:28:51 <xelister> validus: are you stupid?
1813 2011-03-12 14:28:57 <validus> apparently you fucking are
1814 2011-03-12 14:28:59 <xelister> validus: USA sucks cocks since it is not free at all
1815 2011-03-12 14:29:02 <validus> come to my country and get whats coming to you
1816 2011-03-12 14:29:02 <xelister> PL sucks too
1817 2011-03-12 14:29:06 <Ocaasi> xelister: well, considering you got the freedom in, what, '89, you can't exactly claim a history of these policies. do you think you'll escape copyright protections in the EU?
1818 2011-03-12 14:29:24 <validus> eu been raided out the ass for dump ftp servers amongst other things
1819 2011-03-12 14:29:26 <xelister> Ocaasi: dunno yet. Hopefull enogh people will object.
1820 2011-03-12 14:29:40 <validus> you just dont hear about it mainstream cuz ill agree that usa media is fucking retarded
1821 2011-03-12 14:29:50 <validus> but keep on with your propoganda hate. you know hitler had alot of that
1822 2011-03-12 14:29:54 <validus> keep it on up
1823 2011-03-12 14:29:55 <xelister> validus: yes, entire world hates USA
1824 2011-03-12 14:29:58 <validus> wonder why ppl dont like you
1825 2011-03-12 14:30:00 <xelister> *** I WONDER WHY ***
1826 2011-03-12 14:30:08 gwillen has joined
1827 2011-03-12 14:30:09 gwillen has quit (Changing host)
1828 2011-03-12 14:30:09 gwillen has joined
1829 2011-03-12 14:30:26 <noagendamarket> the us FUNDED HITLER
1830 2011-03-12 14:30:27 <xelister> - lets start 5 wars lol and kill everyone hahaha O_o< LOL fuck sand-niggers
1831 2011-03-12 14:30:28 <xelister> - oh no entire world hates us ;(((( why that can be??????
1832 2011-03-12 14:30:30 <validus> ya well while your paying out the ass for mining ill enjoy my set fee for electricity
1833 2011-03-12 14:30:54 <noagendamarket> iBm created the punch cards the nazis used
1834 2011-03-12 14:30:59 <validus> good
1835 2011-03-12 14:31:01 <noagendamarket> for super efficiency
1836 2011-03-12 14:31:05 <xelister> noagendamarket: that is correct
1837 2011-03-12 14:31:09 <validus> nazis actually concluded that smoking caused cancer before anyone else
1838 2011-03-12 14:31:12 <xelister> but why use hitler as argument
1839 2011-03-12 14:31:20 <noagendamarket> henry ford supplied machinery and funding...
1840 2011-03-12 14:31:21 <xelister> AMERICANS are doing genocide today.
1841 2011-03-12 14:31:22 TheAncientGoat has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1842 2011-03-12 14:31:23 <validus> why not you want to cause hate and shit so lets bring it to hate
1843 2011-03-12 14:31:26 <xelister> no need to refer to history
1844 2011-03-12 14:31:36 <validus> who the hell says im usanian and all tha tbullshit . you dont know my background
1845 2011-03-12 14:31:37 TheAncientGoat has joined
1846 2011-03-12 14:31:37 <validus> or where i come from
1847 2011-03-12 14:31:40 <validus> or my family
1848 2011-03-12 14:31:46 <validus> but oh your on usa soil. guilty
1849 2011-03-12 14:31:53 <xelister> validus: then you can just respond that you are NOT an americafag, dug
1850 2011-03-12 14:31:53 <validus> look at yourself fucking tard
1851 2011-03-12 14:31:55 <xelister> *duh
1852 2011-03-12 14:32:04 <xelister> it was a question
1853 2011-03-12 14:32:18 <validus> im sure the 20 posts of lines after that was to?
1854 2011-03-12 14:32:29 <validus> ya . sure. go troll someone else
1855 2011-03-12 14:32:35 <xelister> <xelister> validus: are you american fag?
1856 2011-03-12 14:32:38 <xelister> question \o
1857 2011-03-12 14:32:48 <ArtForz> validus: actually *you* are trolling
1858 2011-03-12 14:32:52 <validus> you can send me your btc address ill send you enough coin to buy im an internet tough guy shirt for you
1859 2011-03-12 14:32:59 <noagendamarket> lawl
1860 2011-03-12 14:33:05 <validus> ya im trolling cuz i stand up for anything
1861 2011-03-12 14:33:16 <ArtForz> no, because you fucking started it
1862 2011-03-12 14:33:16 <validus> cuz hes mad he cant view a site so that makes an entire country all fags and hate and kill them all
1863 2011-03-12 14:33:17 <validus> fuck off
1864 2011-03-12 14:33:30 <validus> i posted a fucking funny ass link then hear moralfag usafag and all this shit for 15 minutes
1865 2011-03-12 14:33:31 <ArtForz> <xelister> validus: "the video you are trying to view can not be viewed from your location". Is this that you-have-to-be-in-USA-lol shit video site?
1866 2011-03-12 14:33:31 <ArtForz> <validus> its not my fault if your country censors things
1867 2011-03-12 14:33:32 <validus> and i started it?
1868 2011-03-12 14:33:47 <ArtForz> you started the whole shit with a wrong-ass statement
1869 2011-03-12 14:34:02 <validus> well oh fucking well i g uess thats whats usafags do aint it
1870 2011-03-12 14:34:06 <validus> there i lived up to your fucking name
1871 2011-03-12 14:34:13 <ArtForz> yep, *plonk*
1872 2011-03-12 14:34:26 <xelister> >_>
1873 2011-03-12 14:34:58 <noagendamarket> ^_^
1874 2011-03-12 14:35:09 <xelister> All went better then expected?
1875 2011-03-12 14:35:39 <noagendamarket> Id be a terrorist too if someone bombed my wedding
1876 2011-03-12 14:35:59 <noagendamarket> >>just saying..
1877 2011-03-12 14:37:22 <xelister> yeap
1878 2011-03-12 14:37:44 <edcba> look ! it talks about bitcoin : http://gigaom.com/2011/03/11/are-you-ready-for-the-new-peer-to-peer-economy/
1879 2011-03-12 14:37:53 <edcba> not :)
1880 2011-03-12 14:38:20 niekie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1881 2011-03-12 14:39:01 <noagendamarket> edcba yeah i left a comment there about bitcoin :)
1882 2011-03-12 14:39:16 <noagendamarket> then I tweeted their fail
1883 2011-03-12 14:39:20 <noagendamarket> lol
1884 2011-03-12 14:39:24 <xelister> - we killed 100.000 people LOLOLOLOL this sandniggers are so weak trained for war, what they where thinking ridding their airbuses into wtc and perl-harbor *DERP* (3 months later) O_o GOD why there are SO MANY terrorists? what we EVER DID to deserve this ;_;
1885 2011-03-12 14:42:30 <validus> how about you quit using nigger. not everyone happens to be white
1886 2011-03-12 14:42:43 <validus> i dont care what context you use it in either. nigga, nigger, sandnigger, its all the same
1887 2011-03-12 14:44:15 <xelister> meh
1888 2011-03-12 14:44:18 <xelister> nigger please.
1889 2011-03-12 14:45:08 <xelister> It's a joke on 1) how everyone is too politcal correct about "omg he said the N- word :-O" but at the same time is o.k. with actuall killing of people based on their race (current: iraq/afghans etc, well, arabic race)
1890 2011-03-12 14:45:42 <xelister> 2) how it is horrible to say "nigger" but noone cares about "sand-niggers" (arabics) because they do not have a strong policatl lobby
1891 2011-03-12 14:46:01 <xelister> 3) so 1+2 = totall hipocrysy on part of USA government and many less intelligent citizens
1892 2011-03-12 14:46:31 javagamer has joined
1893 2011-03-12 14:48:00 <xelister> [most] americans always care more about less importnat shit, what you say, do you ahve 18.1 or 17.9 yo when kissing a girl, 21 or 20.9 when drinking a beer... but they support MURDER in war!? My theorys is, that they have to distract theirselves from their horrible genocides and crimes, with stupid shit like this to maintain feeling of goodness and morall correctness. Sort of like "priests" in middle-ages burning and killing people ("which hunts"
1894 2011-03-12 14:48:02 <xelister> ).
1895 2011-03-12 14:49:25 <xelister> and theory is that Americans need omg-he-said-N-word and omg-17.9yo-in-bikini-PEDOoooOooOOooOoOOoO madness, to have a way to spy on, and arrest, every citizen when needed. Sort of like KGB in russia, "show me a man, and we will find a [criminal law] paragrap [on him]" (old saying)
1896 2011-03-12 14:49:46 <BurtyB> *yawn*
1897 2011-03-12 14:50:15 * xelister cuts BurtyB's tongue
1898 2011-03-12 14:50:22 Sickness_ has joined
1899 2011-03-12 14:50:34 <dsg> If I send 50 btc and I have an unspent generation in my wallet, can I be sure that the unspent generation will be picked always? Or is it possible that combining other transactions will get a better 'score'?
1900 2011-03-12 14:50:37 <edcba> how much active users on witcoin ?
1901 2011-03-12 14:50:46 <xelister> validus: if you still dont get that, I can draw you a diagram =)
1902 2011-03-12 14:51:46 <noagendamarket> edcba theres a few
1903 2011-03-12 14:51:51 <sipa> dsg: there is no score based system for creating transactions
1904 2011-03-12 14:52:06 <edcba> how many ? :)
1905 2011-03-12 14:52:07 <sipa> dsg: but there are some heuristics that try to minimize the number of required inputs
1906 2011-03-12 14:52:26 <sipa> so if you pay 50 BTC, and you have a single output of 50 BTC, you can be pretty sure that will be chosen
1907 2011-03-12 14:53:16 <dsg> Ok, thanks, I guess I'll look at the source (I want to be sure). Hopefully at some point we will be able to pick specific coins to send.
1908 2011-03-12 14:54:02 Sickness_ is now known as KuT-Sickness
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1910 2011-03-12 14:59:05 <Ocaasi> dsg: not sure i see the benefit of sending specific coins. aren't they fungible?
1911 2011-03-12 14:59:40 <FellowTraveler> does anyone have an easy script for sending/receiving bitcoin payments?
1912 2011-03-12 15:00:27 <sipa> FellowTraveler: ./bitcoin sendtoaddress <address> <amount>
1913 2011-03-12 15:00:33 <dsg> Ocaasi: Of course. But they are also traceable. So someone could prefer to send coins that cannot be tied back to him.
1914 2011-03-12 15:00:40 <FellowTraveler> sipa what about for receiving?
1915 2011-03-12 15:00:49 <sipa> FellowTraveler: bitcoin listtransactions ?
1916 2011-03-12 15:01:56 <Ocaasi> dsg: interesting, but aren't all coins traceable to their sender? unless they're laundered, in which case, it wouldn't matter which one was used?
1917 2011-03-12 15:02:17 <javagamer> Ocaasi: Perhpas not all coins are laundered though
1918 2011-03-12 15:02:18 <dsg> Ocaasi: They're traceable to a public key. But whether that ties it back to an identity is up to the user.
1919 2011-03-12 15:02:50 <dsg> Ocaasi: See blockexplorer.com
1920 2011-03-12 15:03:14 <sipa> dsg: by the way, there is a sendfrom rpc call
1921 2011-03-12 15:03:22 <dsg> oh really?
1922 2011-03-12 15:03:29 <sipa> dsg: but that works only on accounts, not addresses
1923 2011-03-12 15:03:39 <sipa> so you'll need to give the receiver address a name
1924 2011-03-12 15:03:55 <sipa> receiver address -> the address that received you 50 BTC generated coin
1925 2011-03-12 15:05:05 <luke-jr> genjix: yeah, I agree Satoshi should have designed the system for 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 total units
1926 2011-03-12 15:05:14 xg0d has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1927 2011-03-12 15:06:25 <xelister> luke-jr: eventually some transition would be possible
1928 2011-03-12 15:06:27 <xelister> afaik
1929 2011-03-12 15:06:37 <luke-jr> xelister: not really
1930 2011-03-12 15:06:45 da2ce7 has quit ()
1931 2011-03-12 15:07:56 <genjix> :p
1932 2011-03-12 15:08:11 <genjix> it's like ipv4... nobody guessed we'd run out.
1933 2011-03-12 15:08:40 <luke-jr> it should have been obvious
1934 2011-03-12 15:09:09 <luke-jr> there should be 9,223,372,036 BTC with nano-BTC precision
1935 2011-03-12 15:10:19 <sipa> http://abstrusegoose.com/329
1936 2011-03-12 15:10:31 <genjix> or infinite precision :p
1937 2011-03-12 15:11:01 * sipa suggests moving to a (a/b^c) representation for bitcoin amounts
1938 2011-03-12 15:11:03 <genjix> haha sipa
1939 2011-03-12 15:12:33 <FellowTraveler> question about this script:
1940 2011-03-12 15:12:34 <FellowTraveler> import jsonrpc
1941 2011-03-12 15:12:34 <FellowTraveler> MyBCAddress = 'YOUR BITCOIN ADDRESS HERE'
1942 2011-03-12 15:12:35 <FellowTraveler> b = jsonrpc.ServiceProxy("http://localhost:8332/")
1943 2011-03-12 15:12:35 <FellowTraveler> bal = float(b.getbalance())
1944 2011-03-12 15:12:35 <FellowTraveler> if bal > 0.01:
1945 2011-03-12 15:12:36 <FellowTraveler> Â Â print "We have a balance of {0:.2f}BC. Sending...".format(bal)
1946 2011-03-12 15:12:36 <FellowTraveler> Â Â b.sendtoaddress(MyBCAddress,bal)
1947 2011-03-12 15:12:37 <FellowTraveler> else:
1948 2011-03-12 15:12:37 <FellowTraveler> Â Â print "No coins here."
1949 2011-03-12 15:12:48 <genjix> sipa: interesting... you could represent that using the current protocol = (unused starting byte = marker) (a) (b) (c)
1950 2011-03-12 15:12:57 <FellowTraveler> What if I need to receive a reference code to go along with every incoming transfer?
1951 2011-03-12 15:13:05 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: that code is buggy
1952 2011-03-12 15:13:13 <genjix> FellowTraveler: blaa = b.sendto...
1953 2011-03-12 15:13:26 <genjix> FellowTraveler: also consider using my patch for jsonrpc
1954 2011-03-12 15:13:27 <sipa> FellowTraveler: it's not possible
1955 2011-03-12 15:13:40 <sipa> FellowTraveler: if you need to track transactions, create a new address for each
1956 2011-03-12 15:14:02 <FellowTraveler> ah
1957 2011-03-12 15:14:10 <genjix> FellowTraveler: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#Python
1958 2011-03-12 15:14:16 <luke-jr> bal = int(round(b.getbalance() * 100000000))
1959 2011-03-12 15:14:20 <genjix> using floats is *BAD*
1960 2011-03-12 15:14:26 <luke-jr> if bal > 1000000:
1961 2011-03-12 15:14:32 <genjix> luke-jr: no that's wrong too because getbalance is float still
1962 2011-03-12 15:14:35 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: that is the correct way to work with bitcoin
1963 2011-03-12 15:14:38 <genjix> FellowTraveler: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_tutorial_%28JSON-RPC%29#Python
1964 2011-03-12 15:14:43 <luke-jr> genjix: no, that works 100%
1965 2011-03-12 15:14:55 <genjix> no getbalance is a float
1966 2011-03-12 15:15:03 james has joined
1967 2011-03-12 15:15:06 <genjix> so you still have float rounding errors
1968 2011-03-12 15:15:08 <luke-jr> genjix: that's a fact of Bitcoin JSON-RPC.
1969 2011-03-12 15:15:29 james is now known as Guest55798
1970 2011-03-12 15:15:43 <luke-jr> genjix: not with that code
1971 2011-03-12 15:15:44 <genjix> well there's a fix for the python json rpc
1972 2011-03-12 15:15:56 <luke-jr> int(round(n * 100000000)) is always correct
1973 2011-03-12 15:15:59 <luke-jr> parsing it as Decimal is NOT
1974 2011-03-12 15:16:31 <genjix> why is parsing it as decimal not correct?
1975 2011-03-12 15:16:46 <genjix> decimal has infinite precision
1976 2011-03-12 15:16:52 <luke-jr> genjix: because someone decided it was a good idea to allow 0.099999999999999999999 be valid JSON-RPC for 0.1 BTC
1977 2011-03-12 15:16:56 <genjix> (well specified precision)
1978 2011-03-12 15:17:10 <luke-jr> so if you get 0.099999999999999999999 in JSON-RPC, you must treat it as 1,000,000 units
1979 2011-03-12 15:17:13 <genjix> really? fuck that
1980 2011-03-12 15:17:27 <luke-jr> it sucks. deal with it until we have a replacement ready :P
1981 2011-03-12 15:17:32 <genjix> FellowTraveler: use my branch in that case https://github.com/genjix/bitcoin/tree/strrpc
1982 2011-03-12 15:17:45 <genjix> it returns strings which you must cast to decimal
1983 2011-03-12 15:17:48 <luke-jr> genjix: your branch is more broken if its name means what it says
1984 2011-03-12 15:17:51 <genjix> decimal.Decimal
1985 2011-03-12 15:17:53 <luke-jr> yeah, that's worse
1986 2011-03-12 15:18:10 <luke-jr> if you want, I can update and push RPCv1 again
1987 2011-03-12 15:18:33 <genjix> what's RPCv1?
1988 2011-03-12 15:18:42 <luke-jr> int64 for all amounts
1989 2011-03-12 15:19:11 <luke-jr> like it should be
1990 2011-03-12 15:19:22 <genjix> but json rpc doesn't guarantee 64 bit ints
1991 2011-03-12 15:19:30 <genjix> so that's problematic
1992 2011-03-12 15:19:39 <luke-jr> genjix: it doesn't guarantee any precision
1993 2011-03-12 15:20:36 <luke-jr> in practice, there's only one library (C) that has a problem with 64-bit integers, and RPCv1 works around that by sending .0 after each amount
1994 2011-03-12 15:20:44 <luke-jr> which makes it parse it into a float
1995 2011-03-12 15:21:29 da2ce7 has joined
1996 2011-03-12 15:21:33 <genjix> interesting. so it seems using 64 bit is superior then.
1997 2011-03-12 15:21:59 <genjix> have you got a branch for me to pull/clone?
1998 2011-03-12 15:22:12 <luke-jr> it's not compatible with current master, lemme update it :p
1999 2011-03-12 15:23:14 altamic has joined
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2001 2011-03-12 15:23:15 altamic has joined
2002 2011-03-12 15:23:46 <luke-jr> genjix: git@gitorious.org:bitcoin/bitcoin.git RPCv1
2003 2011-03-12 15:24:00 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin.git RPCv1 for read-only
2004 2011-03-12 15:24:09 <genjix> thanks
2005 2011-03-12 15:24:17 <genjix> for others:
2006 2011-03-12 15:24:18 <genjix> git config --global alias.lol "log --pretty=oneline --abbrev-commit --graph --decorate"
2007 2011-03-12 15:24:21 <luke-jr> note it's backward compatible
2008 2011-03-12 15:24:30 <genjix> git config --global alias.ci "commit -v"
2009 2011-03-12 15:24:31 <luke-jr> so you need to pass -rpcversion=1 to get int64 style
2010 2011-03-12 15:24:41 <genjix> ok cool
2011 2011-03-12 15:24:45 <luke-jr> and for methods, call bitcoin.1.<name>
2012 2011-03-12 15:25:01 <luke-jr> (see Spesmilo for a Python JSON-RPC way to do it)
2013 2011-03-12 15:25:03 <genjix> ohh namespacing
2014 2011-03-12 15:25:27 <luke-jr> Spesmilo auto-detects supported versions âº
2015 2011-03-12 15:25:28 <genjix> from the Python Zen http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/
2016 2011-03-12 15:25:34 <genjix> Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!
2017 2011-03-12 15:27:43 TD has joined
2018 2011-03-12 15:28:42 <genjix> ok compiling that now.
2019 2011-03-12 15:30:24 da2ce7 has quit ()
2020 2011-03-12 15:31:28 <genjix> luke-jr: that syntax the bitcoin.1.getbalance is problematic
2021 2011-03-12 15:32:05 <FellowTraveler> why?
2022 2011-03-12 15:32:25 <genjix> in php or python?
2023 2011-03-12 15:32:33 <genjix> i don't think it's valid syntax.
2024 2011-03-12 15:36:23 <luke-jr> genjix: perhaps .v1?
2025 2011-03-12 15:36:55 <luke-jr> self.access.bitcoin.__getattr__('1').getinfo()
2026 2011-03-12 15:36:59 <luke-jr> that's how Spesmilo does it now :p
2027 2011-03-12 15:37:12 <genjix> yep im trying that out
2028 2011-03-12 15:37:57 <genjix> also bitcoin.v1.foo looks ugly... why not just foo()? if you specify rpcversion then it shouldn't be necessary.
2029 2011-03-12 15:38:59 <genjix> yeah v1 doesn't work in php
2030 2011-03-12 15:39:43 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2031 2011-03-12 15:40:10 euclid has joined
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2033 2011-03-12 15:41:24 <genjix> luke-jr: what do you think? lets remove the prefixes, but organise + rename the various json methods
2034 2011-03-12 15:42:32 <FellowTraveler> Alright sorry if I sound like a total idiot but here are my notes for how I would do an in-exchange from bitcoin into open transactions
2035 2011-03-12 15:42:38 <FellowTraveler> please correct me if anything sounds wrong here.
2036 2011-03-12 15:42:43 <luke-jr> genjix: rpcversion adds the prefix
2037 2011-03-12 15:42:46 <FellowTraveler> 1) The OT Wallet sends a "BITCOIN IN-EXCHANGE" request (a new OT message) to the OT Server. (OT API). This request also includes the OT asset account ID you're exchanging into.
2038 2011-03-12 15:42:47 <FellowTraveler> 2) The OT Server generates a new Bitcoin address for the exchange, stores it in an OTCronItem on the server side, and also returns the address in the reply to the Wallet. The same CronItem also contains a copy of the OT asset account ID being exchanged into. (Which it'll need later, in step 7.)
2039 2011-03-12 15:42:47 <FellowTraveler> 3) If the CronItem expires, then you have to start over with a new in-exchange request. (Step 1.) The OT Wallet will be smart enough not to send any funds after the expiration time noted in the receipt.
2040 2011-03-12 15:42:47 <FellowTraveler> 4) The OT Wallet, upon receiving the Bitcoin address in the server's reply, uses the Bitcoin Protocol to send amount of BTC to that address. b.sendtoaddress(ServerBitcoinInAddress,amount)
2041 2011-03-12 15:42:48 <FellowTraveler> 5) The OT Server, meanwhile, is checking that address regularly due to the OTCronItem. Until it expires, it will keep checking that address for the incoming Bitcoins. bal = float(b.getbalance())
2042 2011-03-12 15:42:49 <FellowTraveler> 6) Once the Bitcoins are received, I want the CronItem to WAIT until blocks are verified. WHAT CALL / HOW DO I DO THIS? I want to make sure there are X blocks in place before I go to the next step.
2043 2011-03-12 15:42:50 <FellowTraveler> 7) Once the blocks are verified, the CronItem funds the appropriate OT account, dropping a receipt into the inbox for that account.
2044 2011-03-12 15:42:51 <FellowTraveler> 8) The OT Wallet waits half a second and then downloads the inbox, processes the receipt, and displays the updated balance on the screen.
2045 2011-03-12 15:42:52 <FellowTraveler> The user can now use his Bitcoins like any other OT currency.. withdraw in untraceable cash, write cheques, get signed receipts, use destruction of account history, and trade the BTC on markets against other asset types that are issued on the same OT server. (Convertibility..)
2046 2011-03-12 15:42:56 <luke-jr> genjix: why doesn't v1 work in PHP?
2047 2011-03-12 15:43:36 sabalaba has joined
2048 2011-03-12 15:44:28 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: spam is nonsense
2049 2011-03-12 15:44:34 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: also, your spam still has that buggy line
2050 2011-03-12 15:46:05 <FellowTraveler> sorry to spam luke-jr, I would think every bitcoin exchanger or market site has a similar process to this, and I just want to make sure I have the concept right
2051 2011-03-12 15:46:16 <FellowTraveler> also how is the line buggy?
2052 2011-03-12 15:46:35 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: it should be: bal = int(round(b.getbalance() * 100000000))
2053 2011-03-12 15:46:48 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: code should never work with BTC internally, just raw bitcoin units
2054 2011-03-12 15:47:15 <luke-jr> also, b.getbalance() isn't likely to be useful
2055 2011-03-12 15:47:31 <xelister> HAHA
2056 2011-03-12 15:47:45 <FellowTraveler> luke-jr why not?
2057 2011-03-12 15:47:54 <luke-jr> it's a total of *all* addresses
2058 2011-03-12 15:48:28 <xelister> -Fuck japan, they did perlharbor -it was long.. and we send them A-bombs, that is worse -yea.. but now they send us tsunami - ...... 8\) fuck that shit
2059 2011-03-12 15:48:33 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: bal = int(round(b.getreceivedbyaddress(address, 6) * 100000000))
2060 2011-03-12 15:48:53 <FellowTraveler> luke-jr I'm curious about the 6
2061 2011-03-12 15:49:03 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: minimum confirmations before it counts
2062 2011-03-12 15:49:15 <luke-jr> 6 is when it's definitely there generally
2063 2011-03-12 15:49:24 <genjix> luke-jr:
2064 2011-03-12 15:49:25 <genjix> if (APIVersion)
2065 2011-03-12 15:49:25 <genjix> strMethod.insert(0, "bitcoin.v" + boost::lexical_cast<string>(APIVersion) + '.');
2066 2011-03-12 15:49:30 <genjix> is that correct?
2067 2011-03-12 15:49:30 <FellowTraveler> cool thanks, that's perfect. How long on average before that happens?
2068 2011-03-12 15:49:45 <luke-jr> genjix: yes, but you have to change it a couple other places too
2069 2011-03-12 15:49:50 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: an hour
2070 2011-03-12 15:50:13 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: and note, if you want to compare to 0.10 BTC, you need to do > 1000000, not > 0.1
2071 2011-03-12 15:50:33 <luke-jr> FellowTraveler: the math in that one up there should work to convert any BTC-looking value to raw units
2072 2011-03-12 15:50:48 <luke-jr> genjix: if you want, I can just update the branch with it
2073 2011-03-12 15:50:50 <genjix> FellowTraveler: do you know melvster?
2074 2011-03-12 15:51:00 <genjix> luke-jr: yeah please... in fact why not get rid of it? :p
2075 2011-03-12 15:51:08 <FellowTraveler> genjix no sorry.
2076 2011-03-12 15:51:09 <luke-jr> genjix: ?
2077 2011-03-12 15:51:16 <genjix> bitcoin.v1.
2078 2011-03-12 15:51:26 <genjix> you're already specifying rpcversion on the command line
2079 2011-03-12 15:51:28 <luke-jr> it's needed to differentiate between v0 and v1
2080 2011-03-12 15:51:30 <luke-jr> â¦
2081 2011-03-12 15:51:39 <genjix> ./bitcoind -rpcversion=1
2082 2011-03-12 15:51:44 <luke-jr> genjix: if you put -rpcversion=1, it adds bitcoin.v1. to the method name
2083 2011-03-12 15:51:51 <luke-jr> that's all
2084 2011-03-12 15:51:54 <genjix> ohh
2085 2011-03-12 15:52:05 <genjix> i get it... i think it should just set an internal flag
2086 2011-03-12 15:52:33 <luke-jr> JSON-RPC doesn't have an internal flag
2087 2011-03-12 15:54:22 <luke-jr> genjix: ok, pull and try it
2088 2011-03-12 15:54:53 <luke-jr> genjix: in case it wasn't obvious, you run bitcoind like normal, and use -rpcversion=1 or -rpcversion=0 with the CLI client
2089 2011-03-12 15:55:01 <genjix> yep
2090 2011-03-12 15:55:01 <luke-jr> so you can use RPCv0 code with the same bitcoind
2091 2011-03-12 15:57:06 <genjix> ok testing now
2092 2011-03-12 15:59:39 <genjix> luke-jr: yeah php doesn't work.
2093 2011-03-12 15:59:43 <luke-jr> why?
2094 2011-03-12 15:59:50 <genjix> $balance = $bitcoin->bitcoin.v1.getbalance();
2095 2011-03-12 16:00:07 <FellowTraveler> question: If I send a part of my bitcoin holdings to someone, is there any reason why I would then change my address and move my holdings to the new address? Or does it matter? Would I normally just keep the address as it is?
2096 2011-03-12 16:00:09 <genjix> but ./bitcoind bitcoin.v1.getbalance is fine
2097 2011-03-12 16:00:21 mundkur has joined
2098 2011-03-12 16:00:22 <genjix> FellowTraveler: anonymity ;)
2099 2011-03-12 16:01:15 <genjix> FellowTraveler: i asked about melvster because he introduced me to bitcoin and told me about your lib. he said he knew you :p
2100 2011-03-12 16:01:21 <FellowTraveler> one more thing: let's say that I send a transfer to someone. Is there an easy call that will give me a receipt for that transfer, showing the relevant blocks and addresses, so I can save that for proof later?
2101 2011-03-12 16:01:37 <genjix> yeah the txid is returned from the send call
2102 2011-03-12 16:01:38 <FellowTraveler> genjix I probably chatted with him or exchanged emails
2103 2011-03-12 16:01:45 <genjix> i think OT is a very cool idea
2104 2011-03-12 16:02:08 <luke-jr> genjix: wouldn't it be $bitcoin->bitcoin->v1->getbalance()?
2105 2011-03-12 16:02:13 <genjix> but i havent had much success running it yet... probably need more time.
2106 2011-03-12 16:02:39 <genjix> $balance = $bitcoin->bitcoin->v1->getbalance();
2107 2011-03-12 16:02:45 <genjix> doesn't work either.
2108 2011-03-12 16:02:54 <sipa> FellowTraveler: a receipt... interesting
2109 2011-03-12 16:03:11 <genjix> Notice: Undefined property: jsonRPCClient::$bitcoin in /home/genjix/src/intersango/www/test/index.php on line 9 Notice: Trying to get property of non-object in /home/genjix/src/intersango/www/test/index.php on line 9 Fatal error: Call to a member function getbalance() on a non-object in /home/genjix/src/intersango/www/test/index.php on line 9
2110 2011-03-12 16:03:19 <sipa> FellowTraveler: as soon as it is accepted in the block chain, you can just point to it using the block number and transaction number in it
2111 2011-03-12 16:04:11 <genjix> luke-jr: you should make it without using the prefix
2112 2011-03-12 16:04:32 <luke-jr> genjix: there is no way to be compatible then
2113 2011-03-12 16:04:32 <FellowTraveler> genjix most people if they have problems running OT, is because it requires OpenSSL 1.0.0. One easy way is to download OpenSSL 1.0.0 to its own folder, and build it, and point the OT Makefile to use that special folder. That way you don't have to mess with your linux distro / main installation of OpenSSL.
2114 2011-03-12 16:04:33 <genjix> just getbalance
2115 2011-03-12 16:04:43 <genjix> luke-jr: you don't *need* to be compatible
2116 2011-03-12 16:04:50 <genjix> you specified the rpcversion on the command line
2117 2011-03-12 16:04:51 <FellowTraveler> OT itself should build in a snap, just contact me if you have any problems and I'll help you through it. genjix
2118 2011-03-12 16:04:55 <luke-jr> genjix: then you can easily change default RPCVersion to 1
2119 2011-03-12 16:05:02 <luke-jr> genjix: OMGâ¦
2120 2011-03-12 16:05:05 <genjix> you said "i want to use API 1.0 instead of the old one"
2121 2011-03-12 16:05:32 <luke-jr> genjix: the ONLY thing -rpcversion=1 does is stick bitcoin.v1. in front of the method name for you
2122 2011-03-12 16:05:48 <genjix> FellowTraveler: that's cool... i have some projects that will probably use it later on.
2123 2011-03-12 16:06:10 <genjix> luke-jr: yeah but rpcversion should set an nAPIVersion
2124 2011-03-12 16:06:20 <luke-jr> genjix: there is no nAPIVersion
2125 2011-03-12 16:06:24 <genjix> and then the correct api is selected depending on nAPIVersion
2126 2011-03-12 16:06:35 <luke-jr> genjix: there are no arbitrary variables in JSON-RPC
2127 2011-03-12 16:06:49 <genjix> no i mean in bitcoin :p
2128 2011-03-12 16:06:58 <luke-jr> it communicates over a socket
2129 2011-03-12 16:07:24 <genjix> not sure if you're getting me.
2130 2011-03-12 16:07:30 <genjix> if i run:
2131 2011-03-12 16:08:00 <genjix> ./bitcoind (btw pull in tcatm's branch called daemon-mode to fix that bug where bitcoin isn't spawning)
2132 2011-03-12 16:08:06 <genjix> ./bitcoind getbalance
2133 2011-03-12 16:08:16 <genjix> 0.0005
2134 2011-03-12 16:08:21 <genjix> ./bitcoind stop
2135 2011-03-12 16:08:27 <genjix> ./bitcoind -rpcversion=1
2136 2011-03-12 16:08:32 <genjix> ./bitcoind getbalance
2137 2011-03-12 16:08:35 <genjix> 5000
2138 2011-03-12 16:08:42 <genjix> get it? :)
2139 2011-03-12 16:09:01 <genjix> ./bitcoin getinfo
2140 2011-03-12 16:09:10 <genjix> "rpcversion": 1
2141 2011-03-12 16:09:11 <genjix> ...
2142 2011-03-12 16:09:36 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2143 2011-03-12 16:09:52 <luke-jr> done, BUT
2144 2011-03-12 16:09:53 <genjix> then you don't need to pass int ver to each method
2145 2011-03-12 16:09:56 <luke-jr> that's dangerous
2146 2011-03-12 16:10:03 <luke-jr> 'v1' is not an int
2147 2011-03-12 16:10:18 <luke-jr> your PHP problem seems to be yet another buggy JSON-RPC implementation
2148 2011-03-12 16:10:22 <genjix> i mean:
2149 2011-03-12 16:10:22 <luke-jr> this time not supporting namespaces at all
2150 2011-03-12 16:10:30 <genjix> Value validateaddress(int ver, const Array& params, bool fHelp)
2151 2011-03-12 16:10:45 <luke-jr> genjix: if someone accidentally runs the wrong bitcoind, now you send me 1000000 BTC instead of 0.10 BTC ;)
2152 2011-03-12 16:10:49 <genjix> ^ then you won't need the first argument
2153 2011-03-12 16:11:13 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2154 2011-03-12 16:11:20 <luke-jr> and then you force everyone to rewrite everything using the bitcoind
2155 2011-03-12 16:11:46 <luke-jr> genjix: anyhow, I pushed a commit that makes -rpcversion=1 on the server set its default
2156 2011-03-12 16:12:07 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
2157 2011-03-12 16:12:46 <genjix> oh well... not against perfection.
2158 2011-03-12 16:13:28 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: have a writeup with all the changes?
2159 2011-03-12 16:14:04 <genjix> luke-jr: do you mind if i start renaming various methods and then you pull in changes?
2160 2011-03-12 16:14:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: somewhere on the forum, but it's old and I don't care to support it
2161 2011-03-12 16:14:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it only fixes one of the problems with JSON-RPC, and gavin doesn't want it
2162 2011-03-12 16:14:37 <luke-jr> so it's just a hack as far as i'm concerned
2163 2011-03-12 16:14:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: what problem?
2164 2011-03-12 16:15:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the problem with buggy JSON-RPC libs using floats or int32 for bitcoins
2165 2011-03-12 16:15:37 <luke-jr> genjix: why would you do that?
2166 2011-03-12 16:15:44 <genjix> the names suck
2167 2011-03-12 16:15:47 <luke-jr> â¦
2168 2011-03-12 16:16:03 <luke-jr> genjix: so propose better names for the new wallet protocol on the wiki
2169 2011-03-12 16:16:38 <luke-jr> hack on top of hack when JSON-RPC is fundamentally flawed isn't useful
2170 2011-03-12 16:17:27 jrabbit has joined
2171 2011-03-12 16:21:38 <genjix> luke-jr: could i have write access to that repo? i want to merge a bug fix
2172 2011-03-12 16:21:58 <luke-jr> submit a pull req? :P
2173 2011-03-12 16:22:10 Cusipzzz has joined
2174 2011-03-12 16:22:21 <luke-jr> I'm probably going to move it out of the main bitcoin repo to my personal one
2175 2011-03-12 16:22:27 <genjix> what's the command for that?
2176 2011-03-12 16:22:43 Lachesis has joined
2177 2011-03-12 16:23:01 <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/genjix-bitcoin/merge_requests/new
2178 2011-03-12 16:23:09 <genjix> ty
2179 2011-03-12 16:23:09 <luke-jr> genjix: you need to make a Gitorious-side clone first
2180 2011-03-12 16:23:19 <Aciid> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4223.0;all
2181 2011-03-12 16:23:21 <Aciid> http://git-scm.com/
2182 2011-03-12 16:23:25 <Aciid> http://github.com/schacon/gitscm/tree/master
2183 2011-03-12 16:23:44 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2184 2011-03-12 16:24:28 <luke-jr> Aciid: IMO, should just have 2 download links on the top of the page
2185 2011-03-12 16:25:15 <luke-jr> "Download wxBitcoin" (autodetects user's OS), vs "Download other clients/platforms" which brings up a page listing all the clients and platforms in a table
2186 2011-03-12 16:25:50 <genjix> luke-jr: done.
2187 2011-03-12 16:26:20 <genjix> Aciid: yeah but we're using gitorious and i'm unfamiliar with it :p
2188 2011-03-12 16:26:35 <Aciid> genjix: not about using GIT.
2189 2011-03-12 16:26:39 <Aciid> check the links.
2190 2011-03-12 16:26:40 <luke-jr> genjix: I'd rather not merge unrelated stuff till it's in master
2191 2011-03-12 16:26:52 <Aciid> GIT's website design is FOSS
2192 2011-03-12 16:27:01 <genjix> luke-jr: that bugfix *is* in master
2193 2011-03-12 16:27:09 <Aciid> and the thread link was about new redisgn
2194 2011-03-12 16:27:28 <luke-jr> genjix: then it's in RPCv1⦠I just cloned it from master
2195 2011-03-12 16:28:11 <genjix> old master
2196 2011-03-12 16:32:42 <luke-jr> current master
2197 2011-03-12 16:33:16 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2198 2011-03-12 16:39:52 <luke-jr> REST actually looks perfect, if only it supported 1) multiple concurrent requests over a single connection, and 2) events
2199 2011-03-12 16:40:12 <genjix> what about thrift?
2200 2011-03-12 16:40:20 <genjix> it's an apache project
2201 2011-03-12 16:41:27 jrabbit has joined
2202 2011-03-12 16:43:15 <genjix> luke-jr: btw see gavin's post http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4086.20
2203 2011-03-12 16:45:18 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: REST IS A WAY OF WRITING URLS AND USING HTTP
2204 2011-03-12 16:45:20 <Diablo-D3> PAY
2205 2011-03-12 16:45:21 <Diablo-D3> A
2206 2011-03-12 16:45:23 <Diablo-D3> TEN
2207 2011-03-12 16:45:24 <Diablo-D3> TION
2208 2011-03-12 16:47:19 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: shut up, I didn't ask you
2209 2011-03-12 16:47:30 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
2210 2011-03-12 16:47:32 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113291 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1620 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 68553.89880287
2211 2011-03-12 16:47:38 <genjix> get a room.
2212 2011-03-12 16:47:57 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 103000 32
2213 2011-03-12 16:47:58 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 103000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 32, is 22 minutes and 14 seconds
2214 2011-03-12 16:48:28 <sipa> bah, 22 minutes of mining with my 4870 on testnet just to test something
2215 2011-03-12 16:48:48 <sipa> found a block!
2216 2011-03-12 16:49:48 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2217 2011-03-12 16:50:25 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2218 2011-03-12 16:52:01 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr; no, but you keep talking about shit that isnt related
2219 2011-03-12 16:52:20 <Diablo-D3> REST is a methodology on how to use http correctly
2220 2011-03-12 16:52:23 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it is related, just not the same thing
2221 2011-03-12 16:52:37 <Diablo-D3> REST _still applies to websockets, because websockets is http_
2222 2011-03-12 16:52:52 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: yes, websockets might be a viable solution to #2
2223 2011-03-12 16:53:14 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: do you know a way to run multiple concurrent HTTP requests over a single connection?
2224 2011-03-12 16:53:20 <luke-jr> eg, a websocket plus RPC-like stuff
2225 2011-03-12 16:53:42 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: websockets already does that.
2226 2011-03-12 16:54:06 <luke-jr> oh? guess I better look into that more then
2227 2011-03-12 17:00:38 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: btw, why do you need multiple requests?
2228 2011-03-12 17:00:52 <Diablo-D3> websockets already does bidirectional full duplex
2229 2011-03-12 17:01:14 <luke-jr> websockets are no better than TCP
2230 2011-03-12 17:01:36 <Diablo-D3> ...
2231 2011-03-12 17:01:44 * Diablo-D3 facepalms
2232 2011-03-12 17:01:53 <Diablo-D3> websockets _uses http_
2233 2011-03-12 17:01:55 <Diablo-D3> er
2234 2011-03-12 17:01:56 <luke-jr> you still have to create a protocol for use inside the websocket
2235 2011-03-12 17:01:57 <Diablo-D3> websockets _uses tcp_
2236 2011-03-12 17:02:09 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: websockets IS the protocol
2237 2011-03-12 17:02:16 <Diablo-D3> what you mean is you need to create AN API
2238 2011-03-12 17:03:12 xelister has joined
2239 2011-03-12 17:05:09 <luke-jr> "The WebSocket protocol is designed on the principle that there should be minimal framing (the only framing that exists is to make the protocol frame-based instead of stream-based, and to support a distinction between Unicode text and binary frames). It is expected that metadata would be layered on top of WebSocket by the application layer, in the same way that metadata is layered on top of TCP by the application layer (HTTP)."
2240 2011-03-12 17:06:26 <luke-jr> "Basically it is intended to be as close to just exposing raw TCP to script as possible given the constraints of the Web."
2241 2011-03-12 17:06:28 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes, websockets would drop in exactly how existing apps do shit
2242 2011-03-12 17:07:25 <Diablo-D3> all it does is provide the block header mojo for shit like URLs, request type, request/response headers, message bodies, etc
2243 2011-03-12 17:07:32 <luke-jr> I see nothing in here about concurrent requests on a single connection
2244 2011-03-12 17:07:32 <Diablo-D3> this is no different than how we use http now.
2245 2011-03-12 17:07:50 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: websockets is always on full duplex
2246 2011-03-12 17:08:05 <Diablo-D3> but you didnt answer my question
2247 2011-03-12 17:08:07 <Diablo-D3> what do you need it for
2248 2011-03-12 17:09:43 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2249 2011-03-12 17:10:40 <luke-jr> to have a long-standing websocket (for example, so the server can notify me of new transactions), while still making a request to /generateNewAddress
2250 2011-03-12 17:11:05 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: but whats the issue?
2251 2011-03-12 17:11:34 <luke-jr> I don't see how those could both be over the same TCP socket
2252 2011-03-12 17:11:45 <Diablo-D3> events on websocket are response oriented
2253 2011-03-12 17:11:57 Spenvo has joined
2254 2011-03-12 17:12:10 <luke-jr> the /generateNewAddress would not be inside the websocket
2255 2011-03-12 17:12:11 <Diablo-D3> as in, nothing stops you from setting up a server that sends different types of responses
2256 2011-03-12 17:12:18 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes it would.
2257 2011-03-12 17:12:53 <Spenvo> guys, i just saw there was an android wallet in the Android marketplace. This common knowledge?
2258 2011-03-12 17:13:03 <Spenvo> https://market.android.com/details?id=de.schildbach.wallet&feature=search_result
2259 2011-03-12 17:13:32 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: no, it wouldn't.
2260 2011-03-12 17:14:06 <Diablo-D3> yes, yes it would.
2261 2011-03-12 17:14:34 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: dude, Im not going to teach you how to program no matter how much shit you pull
2262 2011-03-12 17:15:04 zylche has joined
2263 2011-03-12 17:15:59 <luke-jr> using a single websocket with everything inside it, might as well be a single TCP socket
2264 2011-03-12 17:17:10 <Diablo-D3> Im not going to explain to you how a message oriented application protocol works.
2265 2011-03-12 17:22:18 Syke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2266 2011-03-12 17:22:19 TD has joined
2267 2011-03-12 17:30:54 Ratchet has left ("Follow the blue rabbit - http://freenetproject.org")
2268 2011-03-12 17:32:40 <genjix> jgarzik: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4400.0
2269 2011-03-12 17:33:34 subpar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2270 2011-03-12 17:35:45 <Diablo-D3> night all
2271 2011-03-12 17:35:52 <genjix> cya Diablo-D3
2272 2011-03-12 17:37:48 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
2273 2011-03-12 17:41:15 skeledrew has joined
2274 2011-03-12 17:41:40 <blarzong> whattup brothusela
2275 2011-03-12 17:46:48 <blarzong> Hacker Collective Anonymous To Release Documents Proving Bank Of America Committed Fraud This Monday
2276 2011-03-12 17:46:59 <blarzong> http://www.zerohedge.com/article/hacker-collective-anonymous-release-documents-proving-bank-america-committed-fraud-monday
2277 2011-03-12 17:47:55 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2278 2011-03-12 17:51:09 <FellowTraveler> fuck yeah!
2279 2011-03-12 17:51:13 <Cusipzzz> in other news, water is wet
2280 2011-03-12 17:53:53 <Cusipzzz> everyone committed mortgage fraud.. borrowers, real estate agents, loan originators, banks, brokerages, rating agencies, pensions funds...but easier to just blame banks
2281 2011-03-12 17:53:54 satamusic has joined
2282 2011-03-12 17:54:27 <validus> when going after a fall person. go after the $$
2283 2011-03-12 17:54:40 <Cusipzzz> true
2284 2011-03-12 17:54:46 jnd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2285 2011-03-12 17:54:53 <validus> if something doesnt make sense. follow the money then it will
2286 2011-03-12 17:55:26 <Cusipzzz> it would make sense to go after everyone..the whole chain was dirty, no doubt
2287 2011-03-12 17:55:51 <validus> cant sue a broke person
2288 2011-03-12 17:56:02 <validus> even if they settle outa court, thatll be a hefty sum
2289 2011-03-12 17:56:14 <Cusipzzz> true..and they will settle.
2290 2011-03-12 18:01:00 amvjob has joined
2291 2011-03-12 18:03:51 <javagamer> account off
2292 2011-03-12 18:04:00 <javagamer> woops. wrong tab
2293 2011-03-12 18:06:06 larsivi has joined
2294 2011-03-12 18:10:50 subpar has joined
2295 2011-03-12 18:12:12 a_meteorite has quit (Quit: a_meteorite)
2296 2011-03-12 18:15:55 FellowTraveler has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2297 2011-03-12 18:20:16 BitMark has joined
2298 2011-03-12 18:21:04 amvjob has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2299 2011-03-12 18:28:51 <jgarzik> gah
2300 2011-03-12 18:29:01 <jgarzik> where does bitcoin /send/ its initial version message?
2301 2011-03-12 18:29:26 <jgarzik> ProcessMessage handles receive side, but the connect-to-node stuff is split up quite a bit across functions and files :/
2302 2011-03-12 18:30:45 <ArtForz> CNode::CNode in net.h
2303 2011-03-12 18:32:45 bk128 has joined
2304 2011-03-12 18:33:40 <jgarzik> ArtForz: tnx
2305 2011-03-12 18:34:16 <sipa> javagamer: bitlbee user? :D
2306 2011-03-12 18:37:06 lfm has quit (Quit: bye)
2307 2011-03-12 18:39:25 <sipa> anyone have some spare testnet coins?
2308 2011-03-12 18:40:54 <genjix> jgarzik: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4400.0
2309 2011-03-12 18:41:09 <genjix> merge it in master
2310 2011-03-12 18:42:01 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2311 2011-03-12 18:43:54 <jgarzik> genjix: the commit message does not explain -why- the patch is correct
2312 2011-03-12 18:44:19 <jgarzik> genjix: that link does not mention a pull request
2313 2011-03-12 18:48:00 <ArtForz> that actually now looks like a overflow waiting to happen
2314 2011-03-12 18:48:01 <genjix> jgarzik: it's a patch.
2315 2011-03-12 18:49:02 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2316 2011-03-12 18:49:17 <genjix> ArtForz: how is an overflow able to happen using that?
2317 2011-03-12 18:49:38 <ArtForz> sec
2318 2011-03-12 18:49:44 <genjix> 0<->21 million is well within the range for a real...
2319 2011-03-12 18:50:48 <BitMark> but what about 21,000,000,000.00000000
2320 2011-03-12 18:50:58 <ArtForz> value = "184467440738.0", what happens ?
2321 2011-03-12 18:52:09 a_meteorite has joined
2322 2011-03-12 18:52:11 <genjix> ArtForz: but why would dAmount ever equal that
2323 2011-03-12 18:52:26 <ArtForz> well, the old check catches that, the new check doesnt
2324 2011-03-12 18:52:37 <genjix> oh you're right.
2325 2011-03-12 18:52:45 <BitMark> actually i am curious why the max wasn't set at 2^64 bitcoins
2326 2011-03-12 18:52:55 <BitMark> with 1 being the smallest division
2327 2011-03-12 18:53:10 <genjix> BitMark: heh me too
2328 2011-03-12 18:53:27 <BitMark> or 2^64 -1 rather
2329 2011-03-12 18:53:38 <ArtForz> well, or a bit below 2**62
2330 2011-03-12 18:53:52 <BitMark> 62?
2331 2011-03-12 18:53:57 <ArtForz> yep
2332 2011-03-12 18:54:21 <BitMark> why not 64?
2333 2011-03-12 18:54:36 <ArtForz> signed int64 -> 63, some headroom so we can do simpler overflow checks for add/substract -> 62
2334 2011-03-12 18:54:44 <BitMark> oh ok
2335 2011-03-12 18:54:57 <genjix> ArtForz: so you know the ints are 51 bits... what goes into those other bits?
2336 2011-03-12 18:55:02 <ArtForz> nothing
2337 2011-03-12 18:55:06 <ArtForz> they're always 0
2338 2011-03-12 18:55:18 <genjix> could it be theoretically used to provide infinite division?
2339 2011-03-12 18:55:26 <ArtForz> in theory, yes
2340 2011-03-12 18:55:28 <genjix> i.e a marker to show another number format
2341 2011-03-12 18:55:34 <ArtForz> yea
2342 2011-03-12 18:55:38 <genjix> cool
2343 2011-03-12 18:55:58 <ArtForz> but then you get again into forking the blockchain, so you mith as well just create btc2
2344 2011-03-12 18:56:12 <BitMark> maybe he thought divisions of 50.0 were more user friendly?
2345 2011-03-12 18:56:47 <ArtForz> maybe has something to do with using doubles as intermediary for rpc i/o
2346 2011-03-12 18:56:58 <ArtForz> ieee double has 53 bits of mantissa
2347 2011-03-12 18:57:13 cschneid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2348 2011-03-12 18:57:23 <BitMark> hmm
2349 2011-03-12 18:57:48 cschneid has joined
2350 2011-03-12 18:58:35 <ArtForz> at least thats the best reason I heard so far
2351 2011-03-12 18:58:51 <BitMark> (50 / 21 000 000) * (2^62) = 1.09802048 Ã 10^13
2352 2011-03-12 18:59:15 Jeroenz0r has quit (Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v1.8.8 Beta Build (120311-2))
2353 2011-03-12 18:59:23 <BitMark> ok maybe 50 is more user friendly than 1.09802048 Ã 10^13
2354 2011-03-12 18:59:26 <BitMark> hehe
2355 2011-03-12 19:00:18 Jeroenz0r has joined
2356 2011-03-12 19:00:18 Jeroenz0r has quit (Changing host)
2357 2011-03-12 19:00:18 Jeroenz0r has joined
2358 2011-03-12 19:00:40 <genjix> do you think satoshi spent a few years designing this?
2359 2011-03-12 19:00:51 <genjix> (before coding)
2360 2011-03-12 19:01:08 <genjix> because he seems to have nailed quite a few things from the get go.
2361 2011-03-12 19:01:22 <ArtForz> yeah
2362 2011-03-12 19:01:30 <ArtForz> it seems awfully well designed for a 0.x
2363 2011-03-12 19:02:00 <sipa> the implementation some things that the system is clearly designed for
2364 2011-03-12 19:02:03 <sipa> *lacks
2365 2011-03-12 19:02:33 <sipa> like the merkle tree to be able to drop redeemed transactions from a database
2366 2011-03-12 19:03:36 nanotube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2367 2011-03-12 19:10:11 <Ocaasi> are there any particular efforts to evangelize Bitcoin for new websites and especially mobile applications?
2368 2011-03-12 19:10:27 gribble has joined
2369 2011-03-12 19:11:08 nanotube has joined
2370 2011-03-12 19:14:57 <jgarzik> Ocaasi: plenty think that's a good idea
2371 2011-03-12 19:18:14 <Ocaasi> jgarzik: a lot of parents would probably feel more comfortable if their kids had an account which purchased in-game goodies in BitCoins rather than dollars. And they wouldn't realize there's a difference compared to other in-universe tokens that can't be used elsewhere. Would also help kids learn to associate BitCoin with money they should like and use.
2372 2011-03-12 19:18:17 <TD> genjix: he spent a couple of years on it
2373 2011-03-12 19:19:26 <BitMark> Ocaasi: tell they see Gavin's video about buying sex drugs and rock and roll
2374 2011-03-12 19:19:33 <BitMark> :)
2375 2011-03-12 19:19:37 <BitMark> till*
2376 2011-03-12 19:20:45 <Ocaasi> BitMark: sorry, i don't know about gavin's video. link?
2377 2011-03-12 19:21:04 <BitMark> on the front page of bitcoin.org
2378 2011-03-12 19:21:10 <Ocaasi> ah, will check
2379 2011-03-12 19:23:25 <Kiba`> kids will be able to work for bitcoin!
2380 2011-03-12 19:23:33 <Kiba`> and become richer than their parents by age 20!
2381 2011-03-12 19:24:16 <Kiba`> and teach them economic independence, risk management, and so on!
2382 2011-03-12 19:32:14 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2383 2011-03-12 19:32:31 Blitzboom has joined
2384 2011-03-12 19:35:59 <sipa> does anyone have some spare testnet coins?
2385 2011-03-12 19:36:23 <sipa> i'm afraid i lost some ehm... 4000 of them
2386 2011-03-12 19:36:24 <mmagic> i do.
2387 2011-03-12 19:37:36 <sipa> could you send me some? mwgmj2JpoJjaMMTahfYkCBWAik8vwYPQbf
2388 2011-03-12 19:39:42 <subpar> ;;bc,calc 540000
2389 2011-03-12 19:39:43 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 540000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 20 minutes, and 19 seconds
2390 2011-03-12 19:46:37 sabalaba has joined
2391 2011-03-12 19:53:52 Seth has joined
2392 2011-03-12 19:54:19 Seth has left ()
2393 2011-03-12 19:57:49 fahadsadah has quit (Excess Flood)
2394 2011-03-12 20:00:01 iocor has joined
2395 2011-03-12 20:00:04 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
2396 2011-03-12 20:00:12 <iocor> does anyone know how I can count the number of hashes completed by my client?
2397 2011-03-12 20:00:47 <sipa> you mean hashes or blocks?
2398 2011-03-12 20:01:03 <iocor> um, the things that if you generate the "right" one you get bitcoins
2399 2011-03-12 20:01:56 BitMark has quit (Quit: BitMark)
2400 2011-03-12 20:03:28 <TD> blocks
2401 2011-03-12 20:03:46 <TD> when you solve a block you'll see a line appear in the transactions view
2402 2011-03-12 20:03:50 <TD> assuming you are using the gui client
2403 2011-03-12 20:04:07 <iocor> yeah
2404 2011-03-12 20:04:13 <TD> are you using the generate coins option?
2405 2011-03-12 20:04:16 <iocor> I am
2406 2011-03-12 20:04:28 <iocor> basically, you know it says x khashes/s
2407 2011-03-12 20:04:30 <TD> that isn't going to work well. we're thinking of removing it actually
2408 2011-03-12 20:04:36 <TD> or at least. it's been discussed.
2409 2011-03-12 20:04:41 <iocor> is it possible to get the count
2410 2011-03-12 20:04:43 <sipa> to explain, what hash rate do you get?
2411 2011-03-12 20:04:45 <iocor> of total hashes
2412 2011-03-12 20:05:01 <iocor> it's about 600 at the moment
2413 2011-03-12 20:05:07 <TD> i don't think that's tracked, but why would you want to?
2414 2011-03-12 20:05:09 <iocor> call it 500 for maths reasons
2415 2011-03-12 20:05:13 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 500
2416 2011-03-12 20:05:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 500 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 20 years, 39 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 53 minutes, and 47 seconds
2417 2011-03-12 20:05:17 <iocor> TD, I like watching scrolling numbers :D
2418 2011-03-12 20:05:24 <sipa> iocor: you see that time?
2419 2011-03-12 20:06:24 <iocor> yes
2420 2011-03-12 20:06:42 <sipa> just to show that it's probably not worth leaving it on
2421 2011-03-12 20:06:47 fahadsadah has joined
2422 2011-03-12 20:07:00 <iocor> yaaaaaaay bitcoins
2423 2011-03-12 20:07:07 gavinandresen has joined
2424 2011-03-12 20:07:14 <ArtForz> now do the same math with a $600 graphics card ;)
2425 2011-03-12 20:07:23 <TD> g'day gavin
2426 2011-03-12 20:07:23 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 650000
2427 2011-03-12 20:07:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 650000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 5 days, 19 hours, 51 minutes, and 2 seconds
2428 2011-03-12 20:07:51 <iocor> would, my 8800gts512oc do a better job?
2429 2011-03-12 20:08:06 <ArtForz> actually, it might
2430 2011-03-12 20:08:59 <sipa> iocor: for a 8800GT, according to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
2431 2011-03-12 20:09:03 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 25000
2432 2011-03-12 20:09:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 25000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 21 weeks, 4 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes, and 4 seconds
2433 2011-03-12 20:09:20 <iocor> the 8800gtsoc is a bit faster
2434 2011-03-12 20:09:24 <sipa> a bit?
2435 2011-03-12 20:09:28 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,stats
2436 2011-03-12 20:09:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113310 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1601 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 8 hours, 11 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 68857.24436463
2437 2011-03-12 20:09:36 <sipa> 21 weeks for blocks instead of 20 years
2438 2011-03-12 20:09:42 <Blitzboom> you could try a pool with your gpu
2439 2011-03-12 20:09:50 <ArtForz> my math says ~32Mh/s for a 8800gts 512 OC
2440 2011-03-12 20:09:57 <iocor> k
2441 2011-03-12 20:10:38 <TD> yeah with your hardware a pool is the way to go
2442 2011-03-12 20:10:46 <ArtForz> thats simply extrapolating by #shaders * clock from known cards, but it's usually within a % or two
2443 2011-03-12 20:10:57 <iocor> TD, can I pool my laptop, my desktop and my desktop gpu?
2444 2011-03-12 20:11:01 <TD> yes
2445 2011-03-12 20:11:08 <iocor> link to a guide?
2446 2011-03-12 20:11:14 <TD> you can put in as much hash power as you like. however cpus will probably not achieve very much
2447 2011-03-12 20:11:26 <TD> you saw sipas calc. a cpu will solve a block on average every 20 years currently.
2448 2011-03-12 20:11:31 <TD> vs 20 weeks for the gpu
2449 2011-03-12 20:11:41 <TD> the electricity costs aren't worth it
2450 2011-03-12 20:11:41 <iocor> so about 50x faster...
2451 2011-03-12 20:11:55 <TD> see http://mining.bitcoin.cz/
2452 2011-03-12 20:12:04 <TD> or the mining section of the forum. there are several pools now
2453 2011-03-12 20:12:30 <[Tycho]> iocor, http://deepbit.net
2454 2011-03-12 20:12:53 <iocor> I see
2455 2011-03-12 20:12:54 <TD> hmm
2456 2011-03-12 20:13:06 <iocor> pooled mining -> distributed computation over single blocks?
2457 2011-03-12 20:13:11 <TD> does anyone know what can cause the node to stop downloading the block chain at block ~65000
2458 2011-03-12 20:13:55 <ArtForz> TD: iirc, trying to dl the chain from a 0.3.20.1 node (oversized block causes send buffer limit issues)
2459 2011-03-12 20:14:26 <TD> right, i reported that bug. i thought it was around block 50,000 though. maybe i connected to a node with a -maxsendbuffer flag set higher than default but still too low.
2460 2011-03-12 20:14:41 <ArtForz> or the node sending you blocks died
2461 2011-03-12 20:15:16 <TD> hmm
2462 2011-03-12 20:15:25 <TD> it seems it started downloading the block chain from something that connected to it
2463 2011-03-12 20:15:32 <TD> rather than it connecting to someone else.
2464 2011-03-12 20:15:38 <ArtForz> bitcoin takes a whiiiile to notice that
2465 2011-03-12 20:15:44 justmoon has joined
2466 2011-03-12 20:15:46 <ArtForz> huh. weird.
2467 2011-03-12 20:15:57 <TD> it doesn't seem to want to connect to other nodes and ask
2468 2011-03-12 20:16:15 <ArtForz> btw, looks like MM is at least partially back
2469 2011-03-12 20:16:24 <sipa> is there a way to modify commit messages after they've been sent to github?
2470 2011-03-12 20:16:43 <iocor> no
2471 2011-03-12 20:16:49 <justmoon> sipa: delete repository, remake
2472 2011-03-12 20:16:55 <iocor> well
2473 2011-03-12 20:16:55 <iocor> yes
2474 2011-03-12 20:16:57 <phantomcircuit> god
2475 2011-03-12 20:16:59 <iocor> but that's not really modifying a commit
2476 2011-03-12 20:17:05 <justmoon> what? it works :P
2477 2011-03-12 20:17:14 <phantomcircuit> the scripting engine makes me want to cry
2478 2011-03-12 20:18:47 <ArtForz> looks like about 100Gh/s currently
2479 2011-03-12 20:19:26 <iocor> so a client generates x kilohashes a second. At what point do they know they've generated a block?
2480 2011-03-12 20:19:56 <jrabbit> sipa: es
2481 2011-03-12 20:20:03 <sipa> iocor: it's all independent calculations, turning a sequence of bytes into a large number
2482 2011-03-12 20:20:13 <jrabbit> sipa: change it and push -f
2483 2011-03-12 20:20:32 <sipa> when that number is less than 2^224/difficulty (approximately), you have found a block (header), and the client will broadcast it
2484 2011-03-12 20:20:47 <TD> grah. even forcing my client that has a full block chain to connect doesn't make it complete the download. weird.
2485 2011-03-12 20:20:55 <TD> this thing just doesn't want to download the chain
2486 2011-03-12 20:21:05 <TD> ahh there we go
2487 2011-03-12 20:21:09 <sipa> ArtForz: what is 100Gh/s?
2488 2011-03-12 20:21:23 <iocor> sipa, so it generates a seed, runs a computation and if the seed matches the condition it broadcasts?
2489 2011-03-12 20:21:33 <TD> iocor: if you use a pool then you will just receive payments from time to time
2490 2011-03-12 20:21:33 <sipa> exactly
2491 2011-03-12 20:21:43 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
2492 2011-03-12 20:21:44 <gribble> 76193.9710474
2493 2011-03-12 20:21:49 Bosma has joined
2494 2011-03-12 20:21:50 <iocor> sipa, is the computation the same for everyone?
2495 2011-03-12 20:22:05 <sipa> yes, but the seeds are all different (simplifying things a bit)
2496 2011-03-12 20:22:13 <iocor> ok
2497 2011-03-12 20:22:23 <iocor> so clients broadcast their seed s, and the computed result?
2498 2011-03-12 20:22:39 <TD> yes but only if they solve the block
2499 2011-03-12 20:22:41 <ArtForz> sipa: MM
2500 2011-03-12 20:22:50 <sipa> damn, he's back?
2501 2011-03-12 20:22:55 <iocor> TD, by "solved" you mean if the computed result is less than 2^244/diff
2502 2011-03-12 20:22:59 <TD> yes
2503 2011-03-12 20:23:03 <iocor> ok
2504 2011-03-12 20:23:05 <iocor> that's cool
2505 2011-03-12 20:23:10 <Blitzboom> MM back again?
2506 2011-03-12 20:23:15 <iocor> what's the size of the seed?
2507 2011-03-12 20:23:16 <TD> see satoshis paper
2508 2011-03-12 20:23:19 <sipa> iocor: it currently requires 327255607325236 hashes on average to find a block :)
2509 2011-03-12 20:23:20 <TD> for an explanation of how this works
2510 2011-03-12 20:23:40 <TD> http://www.bitcoin.org/sites/default/files/bitcoin.pdf
2511 2011-03-12 20:23:55 <ArtForz> sipa, Blitzboom: sure looks like it
2512 2011-03-12 20:24:18 <TD> ArtForz: well it is the weekend after all :-)
2513 2011-03-12 20:24:24 <ArtForz> unless we gained a new pool with 100Gh/s creating weird coinbases over the last 8 hours or so...
2514 2011-03-12 20:24:47 <Blitzboom> didnât he have way more than 100?
2515 2011-03-12 20:25:02 <ArtForz> yes
2516 2011-03-12 20:25:10 <Blitzboom> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png
2517 2011-03-12 20:25:18 <ArtForz> http://bitcoin.atspace.com/mysteryminer.html
2518 2011-03-12 20:25:19 <iocor> how many bits is the seed again?
2519 2011-03-12 20:25:31 <luke-jr> ArtForz: want to use my modified client that rejects blocks with weird coinbases?
2520 2011-03-12 20:25:47 <TD> iocor: there are several seeds
2521 2011-03-12 20:26:08 <ArtForz> notice the weekend before spiking to ~350Gh/s he had ~150
2522 2011-03-12 20:26:16 <TD> iocor: a block contains a unique merkle root for that solving node (256 bits), a nonce (32 i think) and an extra nonce (32 again)
2523 2011-03-12 20:26:21 <TD> maybe one of the nonces is 64 bits. i forgot.
2524 2011-03-12 20:26:31 <iocor> ok
2525 2011-03-12 20:26:35 <sipa> TD: the extra nonce is a byte sequence, and the first one is indeed 32 bits
2526 2011-03-12 20:26:40 <TD> ah yeah
2527 2011-03-12 20:26:43 <TD> right. it's a varint.
2528 2011-03-12 20:26:49 <TD> iocor: when the extranonce changes so does the merkle root
2529 2011-03-12 20:26:55 <sipa> not really, that's how the current client implements it
2530 2011-03-12 20:26:59 <sipa> but it's just a byte sequence
2531 2011-03-12 20:27:05 <ArtForz> maybe it's really made up of several botnets or massive clusters, who knows
2532 2011-03-12 20:27:27 <sipa> iocor: and there is a 32-bit timestamp as well, which changes every second
2533 2011-03-12 20:27:27 <Blitzboom> almost 500 gh/s ⦠wow
2534 2011-03-12 20:27:34 <luke-jr> maybe that weird coinbase somehow makes SHA-256 find a solution faster
2535 2011-03-12 20:27:40 <iocor> sipa, unix-epoch?
2536 2011-03-12 20:27:45 <sipa> iocor: yes
2537 2011-03-12 20:27:52 <iocor> sipa, 2038 problem?
2538 2011-03-12 20:27:54 <sipa> luke-jr: very doubtful, but could be
2539 2011-03-12 20:28:15 <Blitzboom> isnât that pretty troubling? he could have >50% of the network
2540 2011-03-12 20:28:21 <ArtForz> more likely to avoid duplicating work between miners
2541 2011-03-12 20:28:40 <gavinandresen> g'day y'all
2542 2011-03-12 20:28:55 <TD> iocor: no
2543 2011-03-12 20:28:59 <TD> iocor: it's a uint32
2544 2011-03-12 20:29:01 <ArtForz> = single pubkey and each request gets its own bnExtraNonce
2545 2011-03-12 20:29:07 <iocor> I wonder how hard I'll get killed for computing over all the machines in the computing lab...
2546 2011-03-12 20:30:42 <jrabbit> GPU is hardly noticable
2547 2011-03-12 20:31:00 <TD> hmm
2548 2011-03-12 20:31:09 <TD> there are quite a few old unconfirmed transactions floating around
2549 2011-03-12 20:31:17 <TD> i wonder what's up with that
2550 2011-03-12 20:31:29 <ArtForz> I only see 29
2551 2011-03-12 20:31:36 <TD> i'm looking here: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
2552 2011-03-12 20:31:41 <TD> at the bottom. some from the 8th
2553 2011-03-12 20:31:57 <ArtForz> tx spam chain
2554 2011-03-12 20:31:59 <jrabbit> An Al Jazeera cameraman was killed in Bengazi
2555 2011-03-12 20:32:58 <TD> actually it seems like tcatms site is wrong? tx 67b7d2535ed5934b00ed32df052935c140ad5a510c1b62f132c3918949662642 shows up in the block chain on blockexplorer
2556 2011-03-12 20:33:04 <TD> but is listed as unconfirmed on his site
2557 2011-03-12 20:33:34 <sipa> maybe it's not updated very frequently
2558 2011-03-12 20:33:49 <ArtForz> or it somehow missed a block ...
2559 2011-03-12 20:34:45 <ArtForz> hmmm... nope
2560 2011-03-12 20:35:18 <justmoon> hey, I'm writing a client, and I can successfully connect to the official client, parse the version message and then send this: http://pastie.org/1664416
2561 2011-03-12 20:35:23 <justmoon> but it never responds
2562 2011-03-12 20:36:02 <jrabbit> wait why do you send yourself a small amount of BTC when recieving?
2563 2011-03-12 20:36:34 <TD> heh
2564 2011-03-12 20:36:37 <jrabbit> is it to confirm the network is working or something?
2565 2011-03-12 20:36:39 <TD> justmoon: what language?
2566 2011-03-12 20:36:51 <justmoon> TD: node.js/JavaScript
2567 2011-03-12 20:37:23 <TD> what does the server say in its debug.log?
2568 2011-03-12 20:37:28 <justmoon> the client logs this in debug.log: http://pastie.org/1664428
2569 2011-03-12 20:37:47 bitcoiner has joined
2570 2011-03-12 20:37:48 <justmoon> the message lengths are correct and the messages should be too, so not sure why he can't process them
2571 2011-03-12 20:38:22 <justmoon> I mean verack is empty, if he gets it and knows it's 0 length what else can possibly go wrong?
2572 2011-03-12 20:38:24 <TD> it looks like it doesn't understand your message implementation rather than a specific command
2573 2011-03-12 20:38:43 <justmoon> hmm
2574 2011-03-12 20:39:11 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
2575 2011-03-12 20:39:16 <justmoon> the first pastie contains verbatim what I send (I think)
2576 2011-03-12 20:39:22 <justmoon> anything wrong with that?
2577 2011-03-12 20:40:06 <subpar> ArtForz: this really shows it ==> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png
2578 2011-03-12 20:40:34 <subpar> MM - or someone like him/it
2579 2011-03-12 20:40:43 <ArtForz> yup
2580 2011-03-12 20:41:06 <sipa> i still need to do some simulation to know what kind of variation in those graphs is normal/expected
2581 2011-03-12 20:41:16 <ArtForz> check out blocks 113252, 274, 278, 287, 289, 291, 300, 305
2582 2011-03-12 20:41:30 <subpar> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
2583 2011-03-12 20:41:54 <ArtForz> now with 5-byte bnExtranonce ...
2584 2011-03-12 20:42:04 <TD> justmoon: it's expecting to hear a version message from you first
2585 2011-03-12 20:42:12 <TD> justmoon: doesn't work quite the way you'd expect
2586 2011-03-12 20:42:27 <justmoon> so I connect and send version right away basically?
2587 2011-03-12 20:42:41 <justmoon> or do I wait for his version first?
2588 2011-03-12 20:42:49 <TD> justmoon: see here: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/NetworkConnection.java
2589 2011-03-12 20:43:08 <justmoon> ok, thanks!
2590 2011-03-12 20:43:47 iocor has quit (Changing host)
2591 2011-03-12 20:43:47 iocor has joined
2592 2011-03-12 20:44:20 <dirtyfilthy> everyone is so close to a working android client
2593 2011-03-12 20:45:31 <TD> well
2594 2011-03-12 20:45:38 <TD> there's still a long way to go for the bitcoinj based one at least
2595 2011-03-12 20:46:10 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: really a fully working and sane android client depends on the new Wallet protocol
2596 2011-03-12 20:46:16 <luke-jr> because you shouldn't have wallet on phone
2597 2011-03-12 20:46:23 <dirtyfilthy> yeah not following you there dude
2598 2011-03-12 20:46:25 <dirtyfilthy> why not?
2599 2011-03-12 20:46:38 <luke-jr> because you don't want to lose moneys if someone steals your phone?
2600 2011-03-12 20:46:49 <dirtyfilthy> encrypted wallet on phone
2601 2011-03-12 20:46:57 <luke-jr> you still lose it
2602 2011-03-12 20:46:58 <gavinandresen> ... backed up to the cloud...
2603 2011-03-12 20:47:01 <dirtyfilthy> ^^
2604 2011-03-12 20:47:10 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: that might be workable
2605 2011-03-12 20:47:18 <luke-jr> but less secure
2606 2011-03-12 20:47:26 <TD> read the "mobile client design" thread on the forum
2607 2011-03-12 20:47:30 <dirtyfilthy> why not, it's encrypted
2608 2011-03-12 20:47:31 <TD> it has a discussion of some of these things
2609 2011-03-12 20:47:31 <luke-jr> nobody is going to use a strong password, on a phone
2610 2011-03-12 20:47:49 <TD> you don't have to
2611 2011-03-12 20:47:54 <TD> the phones lock screen is enough
2612 2011-03-12 20:47:59 <TD> you only need a strong password on the cloud backup
2613 2011-03-12 20:48:05 <luke-jr> also, p2p protocol uses more bandwidth than wallet protocol
2614 2011-03-12 20:48:14 <luke-jr> TD: â¦
2615 2011-03-12 20:48:14 <TD> what is this "wallet protocol" of which you speak?
2616 2011-03-12 20:48:16 <TD> does it exist?
2617 2011-03-12 20:48:21 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
2618 2011-03-12 20:48:26 <luke-jr> TD: it's in pre-draft form
2619 2011-03-12 20:48:42 <TD> so, no then
2620 2011-03-12 20:48:45 <TD> the existing p2p protocol is fine
2621 2011-03-12 20:48:52 <TD> for mobile clients at least
2622 2011-03-12 20:48:55 <luke-jr> just not what you want on a phone
2623 2011-03-12 20:49:08 <dirtyfilthy> i disagree, this is exactly what i want on my phone
2624 2011-03-12 20:49:08 <luke-jr> you really want your phone waking up every time someone sends a tx?
2625 2011-03-12 20:49:16 <luke-jr> it will kill battery life
2626 2011-03-12 20:49:19 <TD> like i said
2627 2011-03-12 20:49:22 <TD> see the discussion on the forums
2628 2011-03-12 20:49:24 <TD> this is not an issue
2629 2011-03-12 20:49:38 <TD> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3017.0
2630 2011-03-12 20:50:13 <TD> see 4th paragraph in the post by [mike] (me)
2631 2011-03-12 20:50:37 dissipate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2632 2011-03-12 20:50:43 <dirtyfilthy> i found that thread extremely helpful
2633 2011-03-12 20:51:02 <luke-jr> TD: it's extremely Android-centric
2634 2011-03-12 20:51:08 <TD> iphone has equivalent capabilities
2635 2011-03-12 20:51:16 <luke-jr> TD: and there's a block every ~10 mins
2636 2011-03-12 20:51:34 <dirtyfilthy> you don't need to download every block every ten minutes
2637 2011-03-12 20:51:35 slush has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2638 2011-03-12 20:51:56 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: if you don't that's a lot of data to download when your user wants to see his balance
2639 2011-03-12 20:52:20 <luke-jr> even if you just wait 4 hours, that's like 96 KB (and growing as blocks get bigger)
2640 2011-03-12 20:52:35 <TD> this is trivial transfer size for modern smartphones
2641 2011-03-12 20:52:36 <dirtyfilthy> 96 kb is not a lot of data
2642 2011-03-12 20:52:53 <TD> you can wake up and download a few hundred kb of data every 6 hours on a phone without much battery impact
2643 2011-03-12 20:53:00 <luke-jr> TD: 4G has no widespread deployment
2644 2011-03-12 20:53:05 <TD> you don't need 4G
2645 2011-03-12 20:53:10 <TD> 3G + wifi works just fine
2646 2011-03-12 20:53:16 <luke-jr> 3G will take seconds to download 96 KB
2647 2011-03-12 20:53:41 <TD> the phone is told when there's a tx sending coins to its wallet by a relay node, see the c2dm section
2648 2011-03-12 20:53:41 <luke-jr> 3G is also fairly rare
2649 2011-03-12 20:53:51 <TD> it can then wake up and download/verify the tx is really in a block for itself.
2650 2011-03-12 20:54:00 <justmoon> Received message inv <- HURRAY!
2651 2011-03-12 20:54:04 <justmoon> thanks TD!!
2652 2011-03-12 20:54:05 <TD> where do you live that 3G is rare? it's practically everywhere in europe
2653 2011-03-12 20:54:08 <TD> justmoon: np :-)
2654 2011-03-12 20:54:14 <luke-jr> TD: what is this C2DM?
2655 2011-03-12 20:54:26 <luke-jr> TD: sounds like yet another attempt to duplicate work of Wallet proto :p
2656 2011-03-12 20:54:30 <TD> luke-jr: it lets you send messages to android phones, apple have an equivalent they call push messaging
2657 2011-03-12 20:54:34 <luke-jr> TD: Florida
2658 2011-03-12 20:54:40 <TD> the messages wake up the phones from their sleep state
2659 2011-03-12 20:54:43 <luke-jr> before Florida, Nebraska
2660 2011-03-12 20:55:23 <luke-jr> TD: so a vendor-specific extension to IP of some kind
2661 2011-03-12 20:55:38 <TD> they are just regular TCP connections that are optimized for low power consumption on the phone
2662 2011-03-12 20:55:47 <TD> you access them via google/apple datacenters
2663 2011-03-12 20:56:05 <TD> the message send time is ~instant so it's a good fit for receiving coins
2664 2011-03-12 20:56:06 <luke-jr> ⦠so not even just vendor-specific, but tied to specific IPs?
2665 2011-03-12 20:56:30 <luke-jr> TD: FYI, I don't trust Google or Apple. I certainly don't want them having any interaction with my financials.
2666 2011-03-12 20:56:48 <TD> you don't have to. you just have to trust a relay node. the messages themselves can be encrypted
2667 2011-03-12 20:56:51 <TD> though there'd be no point
2668 2011-03-12 20:56:59 <luke-jr> â¦
2669 2011-03-12 20:57:00 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
2670 2011-03-12 20:57:03 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113312 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1599 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 9 hours, 8 minutes, and 51 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 68493.76859899
2671 2011-03-12 20:57:08 <TD> as the message would just be "address <X> which you registered interest in received N coins"
2672 2011-03-12 20:57:16 <Spenvo> luke-jr: then try facebook credits, i hear you have comprehensive privacy
2673 2011-03-12 20:57:24 <TD> so no private keys involved.
2674 2011-03-12 20:57:26 <luke-jr> TD: it still depends on Google
2675 2011-03-12 20:57:44 <luke-jr> and what about all the people who want to use bitcoin for anonymity?
2676 2011-03-12 20:57:53 <TD> like i said, the relay node can encrypt the message
2677 2011-03-12 20:58:03 <TD> if you don't want google/apple knowing which addresses you own
2678 2011-03-12 20:58:19 <luke-jr> there's still a timing attack
2679 2011-03-12 20:58:20 <Spenvo> problem solved
2680 2011-03-12 20:58:39 <luke-jr> and it's not that I don't want Google to know, I don't want to depend on Google
2681 2011-03-12 20:58:50 <luke-jr> if Google ceases to exist suddenly, I don't want to have problems
2682 2011-03-12 20:58:56 <TD> so to some extent, you shouldn't be using off-the-shelf iphones/android phones if you believe apple/google will go to such huge lengths to screw you over
2683 2011-03-12 20:58:56 <luke-jr> (wouldn't that be nice?)
2684 2011-03-12 20:59:08 <TD> well you only depend on them for instant messaging
2685 2011-03-12 20:59:17 <luke-jr> I don't want to depend on them for anything
2686 2011-03-12 20:59:17 <dirtyfilthy> yeh, if it's a big problem run the original client
2687 2011-03-12 20:59:20 <TD> if the service goes away you could try to create your own equivalent i guess
2688 2011-03-12 20:59:20 <dirtyfilthy> for most people it won't be
2689 2011-03-12 20:59:34 <TD> run the servers yourself etc
2690 2011-03-12 20:59:35 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: just give Google control of BitCoin why not
2691 2011-03-12 20:59:53 <TD> C2DM/push messaging isn't magic. it's just carefully tuned.
2692 2011-03-12 21:00:09 <dirtyfilthy> i'm not seeing the problem with letting a thousand flowers blooms re: bitcoin clients
2693 2011-03-12 21:00:23 <dirtyfilthy> more options is a good thing
2694 2011-03-12 21:01:33 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: that's not the problem
2695 2011-03-12 21:01:42 <Spenvo> luke-jr: so you're one of those survivalists that has all worst case scenarios planned out and lives his life in a limited fashion because its become his mindset. Bruce Schneier wrote on this topic, very good read http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/05/worst-case_thin.html
2696 2011-03-12 21:01:46 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: the problem is Google designing stuff so you *have* to use them, or it's not workable
2697 2011-03-12 21:02:05 <dirtyfilthy> *shrug* don't use android client then
2698 2011-03-12 21:02:09 <luke-jr> Spenvo: how does it make me a 'suvivalist' if I don't trust evil corps like Google?
2699 2011-03-12 21:02:56 <sipa> anyone who would like to help me test a patch to bitcoind?
2700 2011-03-12 21:02:59 <TD> i don't see anything in these designs that'd make bitcoin *have* to use google. it's just an optimization to make the gui a bit nicer. so the phone goes ping when you receive coins after a few seconds instead of a few hours.
2701 2011-03-12 21:03:02 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
2702 2011-03-12 21:03:21 slush has joined
2703 2011-03-12 21:03:58 * Spenvo thinking of an appropriate response
2704 2011-03-12 21:05:15 <TD> i think the appropriate response is to let luke-jr write his own mobile client
2705 2011-03-12 21:05:21 <TD> then it can use whatever protocol he likes
2706 2011-03-12 21:05:28 <Spenvo> Here' why I called you a survivalist. one of the defining characteristics of a survivalist is that he refuses to take part in the world around them because of fear
2707 2011-03-12 21:05:45 <Spenvo> i didn't mean anything more than that
2708 2011-03-12 21:05:55 <Spenvo> i like you luke-jr :)
2709 2011-03-12 21:06:05 brunner has joined
2710 2011-03-12 21:07:29 <Spenvo> damn, that killed the conversation. haha
2711 2011-03-12 21:08:19 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc 400000
2712 2011-03-12 21:08:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 1 week, 2 days, 11 hours, 15 minutes, and 26 seconds
2713 2011-03-12 21:08:29 <JFK911> ok took me 3 days to gen my last block
2714 2011-03-12 21:08:33 <JFK911> lol
2715 2011-03-12 21:08:38 <sipa> anyone who would like to help me test a import/export private-keys patch to bitcoind?
2716 2011-03-12 21:08:47 <JFK911> and 4 days to gen the previous one
2717 2011-03-12 21:08:59 <ArtForz> backy lustard
2718 2011-03-12 21:09:03 <ArtForz> err... lucky bastard
2719 2011-03-12 21:09:08 <JFK911> i think the calculator is flawed
2720 2011-03-12 21:09:12 <JFK911> im beating it all the time
2721 2011-03-12 21:09:16 <JFK911> usually by more than half
2722 2011-03-12 21:09:20 <ArtForz> no, it's correct
2723 2011-03-12 21:09:33 TheKid has joined
2724 2011-03-12 21:09:50 <sipa> JFK911: you could be lucky :)
2725 2011-03-12 21:10:05 <ArtForz> yeah
2726 2011-03-12 21:10:06 <JFK911> i'm usually not lucky
2727 2011-03-12 21:10:27 <JFK911> if my luck waited for bitcoins, and i'm using it up now, i'mma be pissed
2728 2011-03-12 21:10:37 <ArtForz> I got twice my expected average of blocks yesterday
2729 2011-03-12 21:10:56 <sipa> hmm, is there any way to have two bitcoind instances running on the same machine?
2730 2011-03-12 21:11:24 <TD> run one with -nolisten
2731 2011-03-12 21:11:34 <TD> and a different -datadir
2732 2011-03-12 21:11:40 <ArtForz> yup, -datadir and -nolisten
2733 2011-03-12 21:11:50 <sipa> ow, i missed nolisted
2734 2011-03-12 21:12:03 <ArtForz> and ofc different rpc port
2735 2011-03-12 21:12:54 skeledrew has joined
2736 2011-03-12 21:14:36 <sipa> thanks, that worked :)
2737 2011-03-12 21:15:13 <sipa> now, let's wait for a block on testnet...
2738 2011-03-12 21:15:21 <TD> you might be waiting a while
2739 2011-03-12 21:15:35 <TD> one of the things i'm planning on doing tonight or tomorrow is building a testnet-in-a-box
2740 2011-03-12 21:15:40 <TD> seeing as i'm feeling kind of ill and not going out :(
2741 2011-03-12 21:16:02 <sipa> at most on average 22 minutes, i have a 95MH/s miner running on testnet
2742 2011-03-12 21:16:23 <TD> hrmm
2743 2011-03-12 21:16:25 <sipa> (just realized how paradox "at most on average" sounds)
2744 2011-03-12 21:16:29 <sipa> *paradoxal
2745 2011-03-12 21:16:34 <TD> are you the reason the difficulty is so high then?
2746 2011-03-12 21:16:37 <sipa> no
2747 2011-03-12 21:17:09 <mmagic> i got wayyy more blocks than i expected yesterday too. alright which one of you is screwing around with us?
2748 2011-03-12 21:17:12 <sipa> it's only running when i'm doing tests
2749 2011-03-12 21:17:22 <TD> ok
2750 2011-03-12 21:17:27 <blarzong> its a wonderful day
2751 2011-03-12 21:18:07 <sipa> hmm, is the half-difficulty rule still in force on testnet?
2752 2011-03-12 21:18:15 Raulo has joined
2753 2011-03-12 21:19:17 <Raulo> ArtForz: MM never used 5-byte nonces. Blocks 113252, 274, 278, 287, 289, 291, 300, 305 are likely not from MM
2754 2011-03-12 21:19:33 <Raulo> MM uses 2 byte extranonces
2755 2011-03-12 21:19:37 <ArtForz> well, they're from *someone*
2756 2011-03-12 21:19:44 <ArtForz> and its not one of the major pools
2757 2011-03-12 21:19:57 <blarzong> ATI is running a hashfarm with their internal inventory?
2758 2011-03-12 21:20:03 <Raulo> There are no indication they are related
2759 2011-03-12 21:20:19 <Raulo> They might but no proof
2760 2011-03-12 21:20:32 <ArtForz> it's a miner, nobody knows who it is, it's... a mysterious miner! ;)
2761 2011-03-12 21:20:45 <TD> see if the coins end up in the guys wallet :-)
2762 2011-03-12 21:20:47 <Raulo> It might be a few individuals with independently hacked bitcoin
2763 2011-03-12 21:20:48 <ArtForz> yep
2764 2011-03-12 21:20:50 <TD> seeing as he uses one address
2765 2011-03-12 21:20:59 amiller has joined
2766 2011-03-12 21:21:07 <ArtForz> a few individuals all with the *same* hacked bitcoin, that just *happen* to total > 100Gh/s
2767 2011-03-12 21:21:22 <ArtForz> and start right when avg hashrate jumps up by ... about 100Gh/s ...
2768 2011-03-12 21:21:50 <blarzong> its watson!
2769 2011-03-12 21:21:53 <Raulo> I'm just saying there is no proof. With MM, there was proof in his wallet
2770 2011-03-12 21:21:57 <ArtForz> thats a freaky amount of coincidence
2771 2011-03-12 21:23:05 <ArtForz> well, I guess just watch and see where they go
2772 2011-03-12 21:23:25 <sipa> they're all unspent for now?
2773 2011-03-12 21:23:58 <ArtForz> *checks* ...yup
2774 2011-03-12 21:24:09 <blarzong> has anyone identified any of the MM's IPs
2775 2011-03-12 21:25:06 <ArtForz> I think so
2776 2011-03-12 21:25:31 <blarzong> traceroute to langley
2777 2011-03-12 21:26:01 <luke-jr> if I claim to be MM, do I get his coins? <.<
2778 2011-03-12 21:26:30 <JFK911> i got no blocks yesterday
2779 2011-03-12 21:26:39 <luke-jr> I got no blocks in 11 days
2780 2011-03-12 21:27:15 <JFK911> i also got another tx fee in my last block
2781 2011-03-12 21:27:21 <JFK911> now i made .03 in tx fees
2782 2011-03-12 21:27:34 <JFK911> going to have enough for a new benz soon
2783 2011-03-12 21:27:46 <Kiba`> the first botnet mining operation?
2784 2011-03-12 21:29:29 <ArtForz> more like the fifth ;)
2785 2011-03-12 21:29:36 <TD> it only seems to turn on at weekends
2786 2011-03-12 21:29:40 <ArtForz> yep
2787 2011-03-12 21:29:43 <TD> so more likely a large cluster of desktop machines
2788 2011-03-12 21:29:47 <TD> that happen to have graphics cards in them
2789 2011-03-12 21:29:55 <luke-jr> I saw an ad on craigs list
2790 2011-03-12 21:29:59 <JFK911> someone works at a supercomputing center
2791 2011-03-12 21:30:04 <ArtForz> anyone bnothered to check history if we had 5-byte bnExtranonces at weekends before?
2792 2011-03-12 21:30:05 <luke-jr> some guy is buying video cards for people, if they let him use them when they're not
2793 2011-03-12 21:30:18 <JFK911> lol luke
2794 2011-03-12 21:30:40 <Raulo> ArtForz: I'm making a graph right now
2795 2011-03-12 21:30:47 <luke-jr> I'd do it too, if it weren't probably a pain to setup each Windows PC mining
2796 2011-03-12 21:31:03 BitterTe1 has joined
2797 2011-03-12 21:31:14 <Raulo> 5-byte extranonces started with block 103567
2798 2011-03-12 21:31:14 <blarzong> its probably someone in finance, since theres not much trading on the weekends
2799 2011-03-12 21:31:22 <blarzong> or ATI / nvidia doing their own farm
2800 2011-03-12 21:31:51 <luke-jr> or nvidia got their act together and is testing a single next-gen card
2801 2011-03-12 21:31:52 <luke-jr> :p
2802 2011-03-12 21:32:21 <ArtForz> lol, *that* would be a major surprise
2803 2011-03-12 21:32:49 <ArtForz> they didnt manage to significantly update their shader arch since... pretty much forever
2804 2011-03-12 21:33:20 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 600000
2805 2011-03-12 21:33:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 6 days, 7 hours, 30 minutes, and 17 seconds
2806 2011-03-12 21:33:44 <blarzong> Now, instead of 1,000 servers with eight cores each, Bloomberg is able to run its calculations on just "48 server/GPU pairs."
2807 2011-03-12 21:34:29 <ArtForz> basic architecture wise fermi shader cores arent that different from a 7xxx
2808 2011-03-12 21:34:48 <TD> i'm kind of amazed that the forum software allows people to register nicknames that differ only in case
2809 2011-03-12 21:34:50 <ArtForz> well, except for gaining DP support and bunch of new opcodes
2810 2011-03-12 21:34:53 <TD> that seems like kind of a basic mistake
2811 2011-03-12 21:35:00 satamusic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2812 2011-03-12 21:35:27 <ArtForz> no, basic isn't case sensitive *tish*
2813 2011-03-12 21:35:53 <TD> very good
2814 2011-03-12 21:36:17 reubgr_ has joined
2815 2011-03-12 21:36:52 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc
2816 2011-03-12 21:36:53 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
2817 2011-03-12 21:37:01 <JFK911> er
2818 2011-03-12 21:37:02 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
2819 2011-03-12 21:37:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113315 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1596 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 9 hours, 28 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 68243.45372209
2820 2011-03-12 21:38:05 BitterTea has quit (Disconnected by services)
2821 2011-03-12 21:38:14 BitterTe1 is now known as BitterTea
2822 2011-03-12 21:43:21 AmpEater has joined
2823 2011-03-12 21:47:38 sabalaba has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2824 2011-03-12 21:49:08 <Raulo> 5-byte extranonce blocks: http://bitcoin.atspace.com/5byte.html
2825 2011-03-12 21:49:33 <ArtForz> ... weird
2826 2011-03-12 21:49:50 <Raulo> Average slightly above 30 GH/s. It might be compute4cash
2827 2011-03-12 21:50:23 <ArtForz> well, guess they just had a lucky run then
2828 2011-03-12 21:50:44 <slush> Isn't deepbit using custom extranonce?
2829 2011-03-12 21:50:48 <ArtForz> yes
2830 2011-03-12 21:51:00 <ArtForz> but deepbit publishes the blocks it finds
2831 2011-03-12 21:51:01 <Raulo> Deepbit stopped it a few days ago
2832 2011-03-12 21:51:25 <ArtForz> one pool isn ow using 2-byte extranonces, everyone else is doing 1-byte
2833 2011-03-12 21:52:54 <Raulo> List of 5-byte extranonce blocks: http://bitcoin.atspace.com/coinbase5.txt
2834 2011-03-12 21:53:10 <Raulo> Maybe somebody can find a pattern
2835 2011-03-12 21:53:18 * luke-jr ponders making a branch that has random length nonces
2836 2011-03-12 21:53:38 <luke-jr> extra*
2837 2011-03-12 21:54:40 <phantomcircuit> the extra nonce doesnt just start with 1 byte and move up?
2838 2011-03-12 21:54:41 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
2839 2011-03-12 21:54:42 <gribble> 68372.73560876
2840 2011-03-12 21:58:14 <ArtForz> I guess it's possible it's compute4cash, shrug
2841 2011-03-12 21:58:35 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2842 2011-03-12 22:00:39 <slush> why they need longer extranonce?
2843 2011-03-12 22:00:48 <ArtForz> no clue
2844 2011-03-12 22:01:16 <[Tycho]> :)
2845 2011-03-12 22:01:41 <slush> [Tycho]: hi, how many people is currently using long poll?
2846 2011-03-12 22:02:04 <[Tycho]> Hello.
2847 2011-03-12 22:02:21 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2849 2011-03-12 22:02:49 <[Tycho]> Not so many. I didn't asked them all to upgrade yet.
2850 2011-03-12 22:03:36 <[Tycho]> Was only ~5 yesterday, but increased now.
2851 2011-03-12 22:03:36 <slush> I implemented it yesterday and found funny trouble with it
2852 2011-03-12 22:03:48 <slush> I'm using artforz half-node to detect changes
2853 2011-03-12 22:04:20 <slush> ..LP daemon is faster than bitcoin, so when broadcasting start, bitcoin daemons are serving old jobs :))
2854 2011-03-12 22:04:59 <[Tycho]> Are they loosely coupled with bitcoind ?
2855 2011-03-12 22:05:46 <slush> jobs?
2856 2011-03-12 22:05:52 <[Tycho]> Daemon.
2857 2011-03-12 22:05:55 <slush> you also use bitcoind, aren't you?
2858 2011-03-12 22:06:06 <[Tycho]> Of course i do.
2859 2011-03-12 22:06:12 <slush> daemon is sniffing new blocks on 8333
2860 2011-03-12 22:06:20 <slush> and is connected to master node
2861 2011-03-12 22:06:35 <[Tycho]> Oh, no, not for this :)
2862 2011-03-12 22:06:57 <slush> so then I don't understand your question :)
2863 2011-03-12 22:07:31 <[Tycho]> So you know when a new block appears, but don't have fresh jobs at the time ?
2864 2011-03-12 22:07:54 <slush> exactly. daemon is listening on 8333 and then asking bitcoind thru RPC for new jobs
2865 2011-03-12 22:08:08 <slush> but at the moment when asking started, bitcoind is still serving old jobs
2866 2011-03-12 22:08:24 <[Tycho]> Now i understand it :)
2867 2011-03-12 22:08:30 <[Tycho]> FYI: http://deepbit.net/longpolling.php
2868 2011-03-12 22:09:06 <slush> thanks
2869 2011-03-12 22:09:19 <slush> I implemented it in the same way, poclbm is working fine
2870 2011-03-12 22:10:51 <JFK911> i like this instruction set. most of the instructions come with a warning "do not use on PC"
2871 2011-03-12 22:11:14 <JFK911> yeah like im gonna shift the PC
2872 2011-03-12 22:11:25 <JFK911> or VSQRT it
2873 2011-03-12 22:14:55 <ArtForz> lol
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2875 2011-03-12 22:16:03 <JFK911> do not use on SP either!
2876 2011-03-12 22:16:34 <JFK911> this is weird, i think theres no CALL/JSR type instruction
2877 2011-03-12 22:16:45 <JFK911> i think you have to store the return address in the link register
2878 2011-03-12 22:17:11 <JFK911> ohh BL fills the LR automatically.
2879 2011-03-12 22:18:03 <JFK911> so instead of return you BX LR i see
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2898 2011-03-12 22:55:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: btw, did you ever get IPv6 working?
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2903 2011-03-12 22:56:35 * sipa just created his first pull request!
2904 2011-03-12 22:57:10 <dirtyfilthy> well done :)
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2914 2011-03-12 23:18:18 <AmpEater> I heard myster miner is actually aliensa
2915 2011-03-12 23:19:04 <defaced> whats bitcoin developed in mainly. c?
2916 2011-03-12 23:19:10 <sipa> c++
2917 2011-03-12 23:19:18 <sipa> the main client is written in c++
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2919 2011-03-12 23:20:11 <defaced> k thx
2920 2011-03-12 23:22:33 <subpar> ;;bc,mtgox
2921 2011-03-12 23:22:34 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.9197,"low":0.88,"vol":4844,"buy":0.905,"sell":0.918,"last":0.905}}
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2931 2011-03-12 23:44:28 <ArtForz> god, us export restrictions are so fucking stupid
2932 2011-03-12 23:44:29 <lolcat> Is Satoshi dead?
2933 2011-03-12 23:44:46 <lolcat> I saw it somewhere on facebook...
2934 2011-03-12 23:44:57 <sipa> he's alive
2935 2011-03-12 23:45:02 brunner has joined
2936 2011-03-12 23:45:18 <ArtForz> "hey, what are you gonna use those chips for ?" "nucle... err... video processing, definitely video processing"
2937 2011-03-12 23:45:38 <slush> sipa: hard to believe
2938 2011-03-12 23:45:39 <lolcat> THank God, it would be to bad if bitcoin disseapeared because of a tiny earthquake
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2940 2011-03-12 23:45:53 <slush> lolcat: satoshi is not japan
2941 2011-03-12 23:46:04 <slush> in
2942 2011-03-12 23:46:12 <lolcat> Satoshi, the founder of bitcoin and pokemon is not in Japan?
2943 2011-03-12 23:46:23 <phantomcircuit> SATOSHI IS JAPAN
2944 2011-03-12 23:46:23 <TD> ArtForz: sha256 crypto is so powerful it cannot be decrypted, amazed uncle sam lets you export at all :)
2945 2011-03-12 23:46:36 <sipa> TD: lol!
2946 2011-03-12 23:47:00 <ArtForz> actually that BS wasnt even for my ASICs
2947 2011-03-12 23:47:13 Avemo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2948 2011-03-12 23:47:23 <ArtForz> that was for the spartan6 FPGAs I'm using as controllers
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2951 2011-03-12 23:47:55 <ArtForz> and for the config flash proms for the FPGAs
2952 2011-03-12 23:47:59 <TD> why do you have to explain the use of fpgas? surely the point of them ..... is they can do nearly anything?
2953 2011-03-12 23:48:15 <ArtForz> cant have them terrrists get 4Mbit flash eeproms
2954 2011-03-12 23:49:24 <ArtForz> another case of regulation, meet moore's law
2955 2011-03-12 23:49:28 <defaced> graphine processing :D
2956 2011-03-12 23:49:55 <defaced> gimmie one of those computers for like 10 mins, ill be btc rich AF
2957 2011-03-12 23:50:13 <ArtForz> oh, and a bunch of fucking *resistors* were also export controlled
2958 2011-03-12 23:50:28 <defaced> art have u ever seen memristors?
2959 2011-03-12 23:50:33 <ArtForz> yep
2960 2011-03-12 23:50:42 <defaced> those things are intense
2961 2011-03-12 23:51:27 <ArtForz> okay, they were 0.1% low-tempco resistors, but still bog standard 0.1% stuff used everywhere in measuring equipment
2962 2011-03-12 23:52:03 <defaced> mm
2963 2011-03-12 23:53:25 <ArtForz> I could get em locally, but then I have to take a whole roll
2964 2011-03-12 23:54:07 <ArtForz> and what the fuck would I do with a few thousand when I need a dozen
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