1 2011-03-15 00:00:00 <xelister> installing ati drivers for radeon on friends clean Windows XP
2 2011-03-15 00:00:07 <xelister> fucking installer failed with error
3 2011-03-15 00:00:13 <ArtForz> löl
4 2011-03-15 00:00:16 <xelister> "Package installation failed"
5 2011-03-15 00:00:18 <xelister> ok...
6 2011-03-15 00:00:25 <xelister> Package installation failed. View Report? *yes*
7 2011-03-15 00:00:43 <xelister> Report: Installing drivers Catalyst ...herp derp..... ... Package installation failed. Reason: Package installation failed
8 2011-03-15 00:00:49 <Syke__> clean xp with which service pack?
9 2011-03-15 00:00:49 <xelister> Tahnks fuckers that was really helpfull
10 2011-03-15 00:01:10 <ArtForz> latest drivers need SP3 iirc
11 2011-03-15 00:01:14 <xelister> XP with SP2. Website said SP3
12 2011-03-15 00:01:29 <xelister> shitcocks it has sp2 only.... older works with sp2?
13 2011-03-15 00:01:33 <Syke__> I don't touch xp until it's first running sp3
14 2011-03-15 00:01:42 <xelister> also... HOW ABOUT CHECKING SP VERSION FOR BETTER ERROR REPORT, cockmonglers @ ati
15 2011-03-15 00:01:45 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
16 2011-03-15 00:01:52 <noagendamarket> lawl
17 2011-03-15 00:02:04 miner_ has joined
18 2011-03-15 00:02:42 <xelister> how sp3 works?
19 2011-03-15 00:02:50 <xelister> can I like just download offline installer
20 2011-03-15 00:02:54 <Necr0s> yes
21 2011-03-15 00:03:03 * xelister should really convert friend to use a fucking linux like a white person
22 2011-03-15 00:03:16 <miner_> lol
23 2011-03-15 00:03:37 <xelister> radeons, windows, Service Patches... FFFFFFUUUUUUU... too much shit to deal with
24 2011-03-15 00:03:52 <defaced> linux is for white people lululul
25 2011-03-15 00:03:56 xelister has left (":/D FUCK THIS SHIT Im going to play game on my linux.")
26 2011-03-15 00:04:08 theorbtwo has joined
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31 2011-03-15 00:11:49 <mizerydearia> molecular http://meta.witcoin.com/p/67/bug-pitfall---transaction-not-automatically-acknowledged#r-804
32 2011-03-15 00:12:27 <mizerydearia> kiba: nice profits! http://witticisms.witcoin.com/p/28/Bitcoin-Earning
33 2011-03-15 00:13:57 <Kiba> mizerydearia: how about loss as well?
34 2011-03-15 00:14:10 <mizerydearia> loss isn't showed
35 2011-03-15 00:14:38 <mizerydearia> I don't want to uncover the secret of my stealing everyone's monies
36 2011-03-15 00:14:54 <Kiba> I don't know if I am making money over time
37 2011-03-15 00:14:59 <Kiba> or I am losing
38 2011-03-15 00:15:19 <mizerydearia> well, if you don't use the site, you can't lose anything
39 2011-03-15 00:15:48 <Kiba> that may be so, but I can't do calculate with only "profit"
40 2011-03-15 00:16:08 <mizerydearia> However, I have yet to establish better implementation to make that information available
41 2011-03-15 00:16:25 <mizerydearia> it will come soon
42 2011-03-15 00:18:21 <molecular> mizerydearia, nice fix! thanks!
43 2011-03-15 00:19:16 <molecular> mizerydearia, can I somehow close http://meta.witcoin.com/p/67/bug-pitfall---transaction-not-automatically-acknowledged#r-804 ?
44 2011-03-15 00:19:27 <blarzong> shit.. i texted and fell into a fountain
45 2011-03-15 00:19:29 <mizerydearia> you should be able to
46 2011-03-15 00:19:32 <mizerydearia> molecular, edit the post?
47 2011-03-15 00:19:53 <mizerydearia> heh, did you wathc the video?
48 2011-03-15 00:19:55 <molecular> jup, nice
49 2011-03-15 00:19:58 <molecular> video?
50 2011-03-15 00:20:09 <mizerydearia> yeah, a girl walking in a mall, texting, and falls into pool
51 2011-03-15 00:20:20 <molecular> nope
52 2011-03-15 00:20:27 <mizerydearia> the fountain where people usually throw coins
53 2011-03-15 00:20:46 <mizerydearia> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg11glsBW4Y
54 2011-03-15 00:22:31 defaced is now known as xg0d
55 2011-03-15 00:23:11 <Necr0s> old
56 2011-03-15 00:23:54 <molecular> I think its hilarious how peole don't even bother to at least use a friggin tripod when filming a screen for god's sake. That's like printing an email and faxing it.
57 2011-03-15 00:24:22 <ArtForz> molecular: you forgot the wooden table
58 2011-03-15 00:24:31 mundkur has left ()
59 2011-03-15 00:24:59 <molecular> wooden table?
60 2011-03-15 00:25:09 <ArtForz> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Web_0_0x2e_1.aspx
61 2011-03-15 00:27:12 <molecular> on a side note: german politicians are worse than karma whores on reddit
62 2011-03-15 00:27:38 <molecular> didn't know about the wooden table technique... will use for next project ;)
63 2011-03-15 00:28:32 <[Tycho]> What's about the wooden table ?
64 2011-03-15 00:28:48 <molecular> see artforz' link and my comment on tripods above
65 2011-03-15 00:30:33 <ArtForz> also fun: requesting a screenshot of something via email, getting mailed a pdf of a scan of a printout of a word document containing the screenshot
66 2011-03-15 00:30:57 <ArtForz> and thats actually pretty damn common
67 2011-03-15 00:31:02 <[Tycho]> Some people use mobile phone's cameras to record video from internet instead of downloading it :)
68 2011-03-15 00:31:42 <ArtForz> usually the sign of a cargo-cult user
69 2011-03-15 00:31:51 <molecular> ArtForz, I wonder how many people are actually involved in these cases? can't be just one person...
70 2011-03-15 00:32:03 <[Tycho]> How it's related to cargo-cult ?
71 2011-03-15 00:32:50 <ArtForz> doing the action without understanding the concept
72 2011-03-15 00:32:58 <[Tycho]> :)
73 2011-03-15 00:33:27 <molecular> "through magic and religious rituals", hehe
74 2011-03-15 00:34:04 <ArtForz> basically inventing convoluted processes to do something with the tasks they learned how to do
75 2011-03-15 00:34:43 * [Tycho] uses this sometimes too.
76 2011-03-15 00:34:48 <ArtForz> btw, that happens without computers, too
77 2011-03-15 00:35:47 <xg0d> i love magic
78 2011-03-15 00:35:58 <xg0d> too bad i haz nun
79 2011-03-15 00:36:12 <xg0d> i do in lucid dreams though
80 2011-03-15 00:37:26 <[Tycho]> I have a bot that catches all the picture links in some IRC-channel. It writes those links into a special .bat-file which is started by windows scheduler every N minutes. This .bat-file contains commands to download those pictures with wget. Then another .bat-file uses wget to fetch .php from local web-server, which runs to make thumbnails of those pictures :)
81 2011-03-15 00:37:56 <ArtForz> the rube goldberg spider?
82 2011-03-15 00:38:04 <[Tycho]> Kind of :)
83 2011-03-15 00:39:42 <[Tycho]> Sometimes i think that i can run .php directly, but don't have a suitable mood to fix it after some years of fine operation :)
84 2011-03-15 00:39:44 Syke__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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88 2011-03-15 00:50:55 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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94 2011-03-15 01:09:51 <shennyg> is there a way to disable bitcoin from destroying my CPU while using diablo miner?
95 2011-03-15 01:10:18 <jgarzik> shennyg: get a better miner?
96 2011-03-15 01:10:45 <luke-jr> shennyg: also don't use SDK 2.2+
97 2011-03-15 01:11:55 <shennyg> I am on osx using a ATI radeon HD 4850, what miner do you reccomend?
98 2011-03-15 01:12:18 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
99 2011-03-15 01:14:11 <luke-jr> shennyg: it's really not worth it I think
100 2011-03-15 01:14:21 <xg0d> ur doomed
101 2011-03-15 01:14:25 <xg0d> just buy bitcoins lol
102 2011-03-15 01:14:52 <xg0d> i had to realize this too. because 2-5 yr wait time for 50 btc that may never come.. not worth the power
103 2011-03-15 01:15:35 DoomDumas has joined
104 2011-03-15 01:15:57 <shennyg> ok. so what is the point of buying a server just for this? that is cheaper than buying BC?
105 2011-03-15 01:16:09 <luke-jr> no
106 2011-03-15 01:16:16 <luke-jr> cheaper to buy bitcoins
107 2011-03-15 01:16:35 <shennyg> then I guess I am missing something.
108 2011-03-15 01:16:40 <luke-jr> if you buy a mining rig (NOT a 'server'), you might (maybe) break even after some months
109 2011-03-15 01:16:40 <dirtyfilthy> hey does anyone know what happened to that bitcoin mining company?
110 2011-03-15 01:16:42 <Kiba> electrcity
111 2011-03-15 01:16:44 <dirtyfilthy> is it still running?
112 2011-03-15 01:16:44 <shennyg> who should be mining for bitcoin?
113 2011-03-15 01:17:20 <luke-jr> shennyg: in the long run, probably businesses
114 2011-03-15 01:17:41 <luke-jr> right now, people with high end video cards
115 2011-03-15 01:17:45 <shennyg> has anyone tried getting a badass aws gpu server and minning there?
116 2011-03-15 01:18:01 <luke-jr> 4850 is a low-end video card
117 2011-03-15 01:18:06 <luke-jr> unless it's an IGP, then it's even worse :P
118 2011-03-15 01:18:09 <xg0d> well bitcoin is marketed as "anyone can generate bitcoins" well indeed that was true in the begining, now one needs more and more recources to make it possible
119 2011-03-15 01:18:18 <luke-jr> shennyg: AWS? You mean Amazon EC2?
120 2011-03-15 01:18:22 <shennyg> yes
121 2011-03-15 01:18:24 <luke-jr> shennyg: those are nvidia, which suck
122 2011-03-15 01:18:32 <shennyg> gotcha.
123 2011-03-15 01:18:38 <luke-jr> xg0d: complain to anyone marketting mining
124 2011-03-15 01:18:43 <luke-jr> xg0d: it's not a feature of bitcoin really
125 2011-03-15 01:18:47 <shennyg> very intersting.
126 2011-03-15 01:18:50 <xg0d> i know -sigh-
127 2011-03-15 01:18:51 <xg0d> bastards
128 2011-03-15 01:18:52 <shennyg> thanks for all your input
129 2011-03-15 01:19:08 <luke-jr> shennyg: #bitcoin-otc usually has people willing to sell at low volumes easily
130 2011-03-15 01:19:10 <shennyg> I thought this was somthing like folding at home....
131 2011-03-15 01:19:20 <xg0d> well it used to be
132 2011-03-15 01:19:28 <luke-jr> shennyg: you could join a pool with that video card, but it won't make money
133 2011-03-15 01:19:34 <luke-jr> shennyg: it might break even with electric use
134 2011-03-15 01:19:49 <[Noodles]> 75Mhash @100W wont make money?
135 2011-03-15 01:20:02 <shennyg> yes it is thrashing my CPU not
136 2011-03-15 01:20:05 <[Noodles]> that's far from true
137 2011-03-15 01:20:05 <shennyg> *now
138 2011-03-15 01:20:14 <[Noodles]> it wont make MUCH money
139 2011-03-15 01:20:27 <[Noodles]> but its profitable anyway
140 2011-03-15 01:20:47 <shennyg> is there a way to turn it off from using my CPU and only use my GPU?
141 2011-03-15 01:21:05 <[Noodles]> what's using CPU?
142 2011-03-15 01:21:19 <shennyg> the bitcoin process
143 2011-03-15 01:21:29 <[Noodles]> deactivate generating then
144 2011-03-15 01:21:45 <[Noodles]> only generate on your GPU
145 2011-03-15 01:23:28 <shennyg> I get a ERROR: Can't connect to Bitcoin: Connection refused
146 2011-03-15 01:24:06 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: he runs Mac
147 2011-03-15 01:24:11 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: so it's like 42 MH
148 2011-03-15 01:24:19 <[Noodles]> add rpcuser/password to bitcoin.conf and start bitcoin -server
149 2011-03-15 01:24:40 <[Noodles]> however, with 42-75Mhash you better join a pool anyway
150 2011-03-15 01:24:50 <[Noodles]> no need to run bitcoin at all
151 2011-03-15 01:24:58 <luke-jr> â¦
152 2011-03-15 01:25:03 <luke-jr> [Noodles]: the point is bitcoin, not mining
153 2011-03-15 01:25:25 <[Noodles]> no need to run bit -server then
154 2011-03-15 01:25:31 <[Noodles]> *bitcoin
155 2011-03-15 01:26:39 <shennyg> ok. so is my address just a md5 hash?
156 2011-03-15 01:26:45 <luke-jr> no
157 2011-03-15 01:27:00 <luke-jr> nothing in bitcoin uses MD5
158 2011-03-15 01:27:02 <luke-jr> MD5 is broken
159 2011-03-15 01:27:12 <shennyg> it is a hash.
160 2011-03-15 01:27:44 <justmoon> shennyg: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address
161 2011-03-15 01:28:14 <justmoon> that wiki page could use some diagrams and stuff though :)
162 2011-03-15 01:28:53 * Kiba is dismay to find out that only one of his thread on witcoin made him money
163 2011-03-15 01:29:08 <luke-jr> an address is Base58(RIPEMD-160(SHA-256(ECDSA public key)))
164 2011-03-15 01:30:38 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
165 2011-03-15 01:31:21 <shennyg> thanks justmoon
166 2011-03-15 01:31:24 amiller has joined
167 2011-03-15 01:32:53 <shennyg> so how long will it take to make it easier to have colissions than to generate a block?
168 2011-03-15 01:33:11 <shennyg> *long - as in processor speed advancments
169 2011-03-15 01:33:11 Syke has joined
170 2011-03-15 01:35:25 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
171 2011-03-15 01:35:38 <luke-jr> shennyg: it will never be easier
172 2011-03-15 01:35:53 <luke-jr> the whole bitcoin system will break down long before it becomes as easy
173 2011-03-15 01:36:35 <luke-jr> generating a block is merely a "hash collision" where you have a large number of hashes to collide with
174 2011-03-15 01:36:47 <ArtForz> roughly... 20 orders of magnitude
175 2011-03-15 01:37:30 <luke-jr> (that's 10000000000 times more magnitude than the Japanese quake
176 2011-03-15 01:37:37 <luke-jr> :P
177 2011-03-15 01:50:06 <blarzong> been smoking hash all day
178 2011-03-15 01:51:06 <xg0d> i dont think i have ever actually came across hash
179 2011-03-15 01:51:19 <xg0d> ive got keef in my grinder, thats about as far as i can afford
180 2011-03-15 01:52:08 <luke-jr> Keefe?
181 2011-03-15 01:52:09 <xg0d> luke-jr what about with a technology that could potentially do TB processing?
182 2011-03-15 01:52:18 <luke-jr> xg0d: TB?
183 2011-03-15 01:52:22 <xg0d> TB
184 2011-03-15 01:52:25 <luke-jr> wtf is TB
185 2011-03-15 01:52:29 <ArtForz> TB!
186 2011-03-15 01:52:30 <xg0d> terabyte?
187 2011-03-15 01:52:38 <luke-jr> how does terabyte have anything to do with this?
188 2011-03-15 01:52:44 <xg0d> wrong end of a convo
189 2011-03-15 01:52:49 <xg0d> perhaps i should scroll up
190 2011-03-15 01:52:58 <xg0d> or feel your wrath
191 2011-03-15 01:52:59 <luke-jr> you mean TH?
192 2011-03-15 01:53:56 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000 34028236692093846346337460743200000000
193 2011-03-15 01:53:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 34028236692093846346337460743200000000, is 4634391290369428470937860557 years, 40 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes, and 24 seconds
194 2011-03-15 01:54:03 <luke-jr> nope, not a problem
195 2011-03-15 01:55:27 <ArtForz> tubercles bacillus?
196 2011-03-15 01:55:43 <blarzong> cockblock
197 2011-03-15 01:55:44 <slush> ;;bc,stats
198 2011-03-15 01:55:47 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113568 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1343 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 45 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65529.00064081
199 2011-03-15 01:55:55 <slush> DoomDumas: ^^
200 2011-03-15 01:58:54 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
201 2011-03-15 01:58:54 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960, is 3671682230356164282638139436974194212763139669732653325611 years, 47 weeks, 3 days, 21 hours, and 48 seconds
202 2011-03-15 01:59:25 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000000 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
203 2011-03-15 01:59:25 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960, is 3671682230356164664975420892452031452121329354833329129 years, 42 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 45 minutes, and 36 seconds
204 2011-03-15 01:59:30 <JFK911> why are you trying to crash it
205 2011-03-15 01:59:34 <luke-jr> not
206 2011-03-15 01:59:58 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000000000000000 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960
207 2011-03-15 01:59:59 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 26959535291011309493156476344723991336010898738574164086137773096960, is 3671682230356164283341926931718795276979277745 years, 35 weeks, 2 days, 22 hours, 53 minutes, and 52 seconds
208 2011-03-15 02:00:04 <luke-jr> that'd by YH/s :p
209 2011-03-15 02:00:09 <noagendamarket> denied
210 2011-03-15 02:00:54 <noagendamarket> ;;bc,calc 1
211 2011-03-15 02:00:54 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 10377 years, 2 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 16 minutes, and 39 seconds
212 2011-03-15 02:00:59 <luke-jr> wait, I'm doing it wrong
213 2011-03-15 02:03:04 <blarzong> greetings
214 2011-03-15 02:04:06 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 2500000 3000
215 2011-03-15 02:04:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2500000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 3000, is 1 hour, 25 minutes, and 53 seconds
216 2011-03-15 02:04:16 <slush> DoomDumas: ^^
217 2011-03-15 02:05:54 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 1000000000000000000000 340277174624079928635746076935438991360
218 2011-03-15 02:05:54 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000000000000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 340277174624079928635746076935438991360, is 46343205751702956 years, 8 weeks, 4 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes, and 24 seconds
219 2011-03-15 02:06:12 <luke-jr> with 1 YH/s, it would take that many years to create an address collision
220 2011-03-15 02:06:14 <luke-jr> :p
221 2011-03-15 02:07:31 EvanR has quit (Changing host)
222 2011-03-15 02:07:31 EvanR has joined
223 2011-03-15 02:08:33 <genjix> erm wtf
224 2011-03-15 02:08:38 <genjix> bitcoin is hanging
225 2011-03-15 02:08:40 <genjix> LOADS
226 2011-03-15 02:08:57 <genjix> responses time out
227 2011-03-15 02:09:20 <genjix> genjix 5396 0.8 0.0 0 0 ? Zl Mar14 2:04 [bitcoind] <defunct>
228 2011-03-15 02:09:33 <JFK911> pwnt
229 2011-03-15 02:09:37 <luke-jr> lol
230 2011-03-15 02:09:42 <genjix> any thing i should check out before killing it?
231 2011-03-15 02:09:47 <luke-jr> you can't kill it
232 2011-03-15 02:09:48 <luke-jr> it's dead
233 2011-03-15 02:09:56 <genjix> kill -9
234 2011-03-15 02:09:59 <luke-jr> won't work
235 2011-03-15 02:10:00 <genjix> i wonder why it did that
236 2011-03-15 02:10:01 <luke-jr> :D
237 2011-03-15 02:10:30 <genjix> kill -9 5369 worked
238 2011-03-15 02:10:40 <luke-jr> nope
239 2011-03-15 02:10:42 <luke-jr> oh
240 2011-03-15 02:10:44 <luke-jr> maybe
241 2011-03-15 02:10:45 <luke-jr> that's not 5396
242 2011-03-15 02:10:47 <luke-jr> :p
243 2011-03-15 02:10:48 <blarzong> bitcoin time
244 2011-03-15 02:10:53 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
245 2011-03-15 02:12:50 <blarzong> 1btc=10owls
246 2011-03-15 02:13:02 <blarzong> trading rare animals for money on silk rd
247 2011-03-15 02:13:13 <xg0d> no way!!
248 2011-03-15 02:13:23 <blarzong> i can get you several tiger spleens
249 2011-03-15 02:13:25 <xg0d> ill buy an owl for 1btc
250 2011-03-15 02:14:12 <blarzong> Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish.
251 2011-03-15 02:14:27 <xg0d> ^_^ nothx. no foot fetish here
252 2011-03-15 02:17:21 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 80000000 76000
253 2011-03-15 02:17:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 76000, is 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 0 seconds
254 2011-03-15 02:18:14 <blarzong> <USENET> A man has been killed by the military in Riga, the night when Gorbatchev vacated Crimea
255 2011-03-15 02:18:42 <slush> ;;bc,calcd 400000000 55000
256 2011-03-15 02:18:42 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 55000, is 9 minutes and 50 seconds
257 2011-03-15 02:22:34 <Kiba> Jesus
258 2011-03-15 02:22:47 <Kiba> 20,000 BTC will need to be sold to move the market
259 2011-03-15 02:23:33 <dirtyfilthy> move it to where?
260 2011-03-15 02:25:41 Bosma has joined
261 2011-03-15 02:27:49 <blarzong> which wealthy potentate has such quantities?
262 2011-03-15 02:28:37 <blarzong> why doesnt mtgox just "sell" some coin to itself
263 2011-03-15 02:29:11 <blarzong> 90% of the market could be sham transactions to lift up the currency.. thats how stock promoters usually do it
264 2011-03-15 02:30:46 <ArtForz> ahhh, still going with the "ask trollish questions that are already answered"... back on /ignore it is
265 2011-03-15 02:32:00 <lfm> blarzong people would notice if transactions went through like buys at prices higher than their offers to sell
266 2011-03-15 02:32:30 brunner has joined
267 2011-03-15 02:33:39 <blarzong> :(
268 2011-03-15 02:34:40 <blarzong> lfm: theres so little volume, you could buy up all the low sells and then any new asks are going to be at the higher price..
269 2011-03-15 02:34:46 <blarzong> standard operating procedure for stock manipulation
270 2011-03-15 02:35:15 <justmoon> blarzong: do you have any background in stocks or are you just 20-something and know everything?
271 2011-03-15 02:35:36 <blarzong> i dont know much about finance
272 2011-03-15 02:35:48 <justmoon> (disclaimer: I'm 20-something and know everything)
273 2011-03-15 02:36:33 <lolcat> I am also 20-something and know everythign!
274 2011-03-15 02:36:35 <blarzong> but.. a btc market can be manipulated in the same way any asset market can be.. with so little volume and powerful insiders who own most of the currency
275 2011-03-15 02:36:47 <justmoon> lolcat: but you're a cat...
276 2011-03-15 02:36:48 <lolcat> Except wtf Emanuel Kant says in realtion to Humes theories.
277 2011-03-15 02:37:20 <justmoon> Kant is full of manure - philosophical dilemma solved.
278 2011-03-15 02:37:34 <justmoon> Imma go fix the middle east now, brb
279 2011-03-15 02:38:18 <lolcat> justmoon: 1/3 of this years studies is about emanuel kant. I am buying to book tomorrow to deliver the 3-5 pages essay about him wich will base my grade
280 2011-03-15 02:38:19 * Kiba is playing the witcoin game
281 2011-03-15 02:38:23 <blarzong> the classic book of the genre is: "reminisces of a stock operator" wrtitten in 1923
282 2011-03-15 02:38:26 <blarzong> http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2006/10/26/foolish-book-review-quotreminiscences-of-a-stock-o.aspx
283 2011-03-15 02:38:32 <lolcat> Kiba: What is witcoin?
284 2011-03-15 02:38:52 <blarzong> every trick that was used back then is still being down now in the markets (and even then it was old hat, since the 1800s, ,when the markets were first opened)
285 2011-03-15 02:38:55 <blarzong> its a good read
286 2011-03-15 02:38:58 <Kiba> it's a social news site where you get paid when somebody upvote you and when somebody upvote your vote
287 2011-03-15 02:39:14 <Kiba> get it?
288 2011-03-15 02:39:29 <justmoon> Kiba: why would I pay to vote for people?
289 2011-03-15 02:39:29 <lolcat> Nope
290 2011-03-15 02:39:33 <blarzong> for aslightly more modern take you can try michael lewis's 1989 "Liars Poker" or his most recent" "The Big Short"
291 2011-03-15 02:39:58 <blarzong> but anything in lefevres 1923 book "reminisces of a stock operator" applies to today even more so... its an entertaining read
292 2011-03-15 02:40:10 <Kiba> justmoon: somebody might upvote you for your vote, meaning you get paid
293 2011-03-15 02:40:39 <Kiba> but when you vote, you pay
294 2011-03-15 02:40:55 <Kiba> get it? it's a ponzi scheme
295 2011-03-15 02:41:18 <justmoon> Kiba: hmm, perhaps another way to look at it is that you benefit for upvoting good contributions is that there will be more good contributions
296 2011-03-15 02:41:29 <justmoon> your* benefit
297 2011-03-15 02:41:39 <Kiba> only one thread I have made a profit :(
298 2011-03-15 02:41:53 <justmoon> does the site charge a percentage?
299 2011-03-15 02:41:59 <Kiba> I think so
300 2011-03-15 02:42:06 <lolcat> Kiba: Upvote me!
301 2011-03-15 02:42:11 <blarzong> anyway, everyone knows by coordinating the supply of bitcoins a large operator or larg exchange can manipulate prices in arbitrary directions / magnitudes
302 2011-03-15 02:42:56 <blarzong> its a decentralized system, we dont need to take it on faith that ppl will be benevolent when theyre trying tomake a buck?
303 2011-03-15 02:44:00 <Kiba> a large operator must secure a large supply of bitcoin first
304 2011-03-15 02:44:13 <blarzong> im not saying anyone is doing shady things.. i think everyone is being highly above board with everything
305 2011-03-15 02:44:19 pogden has joined
306 2011-03-15 02:44:36 <justmoon> blarzong: if that worked, why isn't everybody doing it?
307 2011-03-15 02:44:54 <mizerydearia> wow http://www.alexandrosmaragos.com/2011/03/hacker-in-times-square.html
308 2011-03-15 02:45:18 <blarzong> justmoon: tradeoffs.. you want the market to expand a bit (more suckers to come in who will absorb the losses)
309 2011-03-15 02:45:43 <blarzong> and you need credibility to expand.. but eventually it becomes more profitable to sell-out that credibility than to enhance it
310 2011-03-15 02:46:01 <Kiba> mizerydearia: how about featuring a thread until it get 50 views?
311 2011-03-15 02:46:07 <blarzong> we know how finance works right.. its goldman sachs, on a smaller scale
312 2011-03-15 02:46:26 <justmoon> blarzong: if that we're true you'd have the tragedy of the commons, every speculator would have an incentive to pull as much out as possible destroying the opportunity for everyone
313 2011-03-15 02:46:35 <Kiba> that way, everybody got an equal shot at a spotlight
314 2011-03-15 02:46:45 <dirtyfilthy> mizerydearia: fake attempt at viral marketing for woodies bacon
315 2011-03-15 02:47:10 <blarzong> justmoon: they do.. but also they are bubble-seeking animals.. they pile into an asset with the expectation it wil rise further, and then sell-off in a mass panic
316 2011-03-15 02:47:19 <mizerydearia> dirtyfilthy, mm
317 2011-03-15 02:47:30 <blarzong> speculators make their money on bubbles, not on the long and slow accumulation of microscopic returns
318 2011-03-15 02:47:40 <justmoon> blarzong: markets serve a legitimate function and so do speculators, they aim to anticipate future changes in price, not produce them - if you trade with a large volume trying to move prices you can easily get trapped on the wrong side if the market actually moves
319 2011-03-15 02:47:45 <mizerydearia> Kiba, featuring a thread? how would that work?
320 2011-03-15 02:47:47 <justmoon> yeah, bubbles are good example
321 2011-03-15 02:48:03 <Kiba> mizerydearia: a thread of the day at the top of the page
322 2011-03-15 02:48:05 <blarzong> im not sure what the def. of "legitimate" is.. they are not doing anyone any favors or improving anyones lot
323 2011-03-15 02:48:18 <mizerydearia> and why feature when yuo can view latest activity and newest posts?
324 2011-03-15 02:48:30 <Kiba> not every thread get viewed
325 2011-03-15 02:48:38 <mizerydearia> oh?
326 2011-03-15 02:48:42 <mizerydearia> and why is that?
327 2011-03-15 02:48:51 <justmoon> blarzorg: if they are trading the way you describe they will sooner or later go bankrupt for the reason I described
328 2011-03-15 02:48:55 <Kiba> mizerydearia: well, some thread will be viewed more than others
329 2011-03-15 02:49:00 <mizerydearia> I, personally, have viewed every thread
330 2011-03-15 02:49:00 <blarzong> justmoon: manipulating the price (insider trading / pump and dump / manipulating PR) is the best way to "anticipiate" the right price
331 2011-03-15 02:49:02 <justmoon> blarzong: that's why US investment banks needed a bailout
332 2011-03-15 02:49:12 <mizerydearia> Kiba, of course, and some people are more willing to view more threads than others
333 2011-03-15 02:49:17 <blarzong> justmoon: you realize that financial crisis happens every 20 years or so
334 2011-03-15 02:49:24 <blarzong> we are perpetually bailing them out
335 2011-03-15 02:49:42 <justmoon> blarzong: bitcoin is a free market, so you won't be bailed out
336 2011-03-15 02:49:43 <Kiba> mizerydearia: someday, the site is going to get horde of content, and most thread will get passed over with nobody scarcely viewing it
337 2011-03-15 02:49:47 <blarzong> which is fine w/them.. spectacular short-term gains
338 2011-03-15 02:49:55 <blarzong> justmoon: why do insider manipulators need a bailout?
339 2011-03-15 02:50:01 <Kiba> insider trading is actually a good thing
340 2011-03-15 02:50:04 <blarzong> they can just control the price
341 2011-03-15 02:50:05 <Kiba> it means information float up
342 2011-03-15 02:50:08 <mizerydearia> Kiba, and by that day, I am certain the site will be further developed.
343 2011-03-15 02:50:25 <blarzong> whoever controls the supply of bitcoin controls their value.
344 2011-03-15 02:50:35 <blarzong> simple laws of supply / demand
345 2011-03-15 02:50:39 <justmoon> blarzong: no they can't control the price, they can only push it, if they get caught on the wrong side when the price *actually* moves they have gigantic losses
346 2011-03-15 02:50:48 <justmoon> blarzong: see "financial crises"
347 2011-03-15 02:51:08 <mizerydearia> Kiba, Feel free to mention the idea on meta if you have time. I don't think it has been brought up yet.
348 2011-03-15 02:51:12 <blarzong> justmoon: you dont really understand supply and demand
349 2011-03-15 02:51:25 <blarzong> if you control the supply, you control the price
350 2011-03-15 02:51:35 <justmoon> nobody "controls the supply"
351 2011-03-15 02:51:51 <blarzong> except those who hold a lot of currency
352 2011-03-15 02:52:03 <justmoon> they still only control a fraction of the supply
353 2011-03-15 02:52:14 <x6763> blarzong: a price is an agreement between both parties in a trade...each person controls only part of the possible trade, and neither trades unless they both agree to a trade
354 2011-03-15 02:52:16 <blarzong> look im not interested in a debate where you claim that bitcoin somehow behaves like no other asset in existence because somehow peoples incentives disappear when they use bitcoins
355 2011-03-15 02:52:44 Bth8 has joined
356 2011-03-15 02:52:48 * noagendamarket thinks someone should be witizen of the day
357 2011-03-15 02:52:50 <blarzong> x6763: if there are 100 bitcoins in the market, and i flood the market with another 100, each btc is worth 1/2 of its previous value. the supply is double
358 2011-03-15 02:52:50 <Kiba> as the value of bitcoin rise, the more difficult it is to control the price of bitcoin
359 2011-03-15 02:53:14 <blarzong> if open produces twice as much oil, the price will be cut in half
360 2011-03-15 02:53:14 * Kiba likes posting new thread on kiba's latest article so he can get additional traffic for his site
361 2011-03-15 02:53:33 * ArtForz likes talking about himself in third person
362 2011-03-15 02:53:42 <justmoon> blarzong: if you purchased 100000 bitcoins today, you'd move the price way up, but a large part of your own trade would be at the higher end as well. if then other owners of bitcoins sell off before you do, you make a loss
363 2011-03-15 02:53:43 <blarzong> s/open/opec
364 2011-03-15 02:53:45 Diablo-D3 has joined
365 2011-03-15 02:53:46 <Kiba> it's paid advertising, with the side benefit of potential profit
366 2011-03-15 02:54:02 <justmoon> blarzong: you can only make a profit if people get fooled by the price move instead of calling your bluff
367 2011-03-15 02:54:09 <blarzong> justmoon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supply-and-demand.svg
368 2011-03-15 02:54:17 <blarzong> pls understand how supply affects price
369 2011-03-15 02:55:06 <blarzong> whoever has the power to control supply, controls the price. that is a universal truth. theres no sense in arguing somehow it doesn't apply to bitcoin because bitcoin is rad
370 2011-03-15 02:55:25 <Diablo-D3> ...
371 2011-03-15 02:55:27 <justmoon> blarzong: what I'm saying applies to every market
372 2011-03-15 02:55:46 <Diablo-D3> you know, Im just going to create another channel
373 2011-03-15 02:55:52 <Diablo-D3> #bitcoin-without-200-people
374 2011-03-15 02:55:56 <justmoon> blarzong: if you buy a ton of porsche stock, you'll move the price up, but your trade won't all be at the old price
375 2011-03-15 02:56:10 <lolcat> blarzong: Yes, if you want to be an asshole you can buy shitloads of bitcoins and sell them cheap. Still people would only loose as much as others would earn
376 2011-03-15 02:56:10 <justmoon> blarzong: if people call you on it, you will get caught
377 2011-03-15 02:57:15 <blarzong> lolcat: if you "back" the market at $2 per btc, you have now created a speculative bubble which ppl will join.. then at some point you dump the asset and a bunch of suckers are left holding the bag
378 2011-03-15 02:57:34 <blarzong> you dont even need to back it since you already have the coin and can log sham transactions in and out of the exchange
379 2011-03-15 02:57:40 <x6763> blarzong: bitcoins aren't the only supply in the equation...the potential buyers of bitcoins have their own supply, too...your arguments also suggest they have control over the price
380 2011-03-15 02:57:41 <lolcat> blarzong: Well, but then a bunch of people could sell and they would earn
381 2011-03-15 02:57:41 <Kiba> mizerydearia: witcoin seem to be a self-sustaining site. Congratulation.
382 2011-03-15 02:58:02 <x6763> (their own supply of other goods possibly offered for bitcoins)
383 2011-03-15 02:58:10 <noagendamarket> About Monostereo inc
384 2011-03-15 02:58:11 <noagendamarket> Our company is dedicated to providing you with the best quality, lowest cost products on eBay. lawl
385 2011-03-15 02:58:26 <Kiba> blarzong: sham transaction which get used up by transaction fees
386 2011-03-15 02:58:45 <blarzong> kiba, use the gratis or earn the tx fees yourself on the other end
387 2011-03-15 02:59:03 <blarzong> the hassle would be worth it when you profit on the other side
388 2011-03-15 02:59:28 <blarzong> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump <-- this is what happens with small-cap assets
389 2011-03-15 02:59:55 <blarzong> theres not much diff between btc and a lightly traded OTC
390 2011-03-15 03:00:26 <blarzong> anyway it wouldnt make sense until there are enough "suckers" to absorb the losses
391 2011-03-15 03:00:46 <Kiba> meh. Price change and instability are rampant. That's expected in a market where trading volume is so low. What the big deal?
392 2011-03-15 03:01:30 <blarzong> debeers, opec -> they control the supply of diamonds/oil. they can flood the market and cause everyone elses assets to drop precipitously in value
393 2011-03-15 03:01:47 <blarzong> in bitcoin who has the supply.. insiders at this point
394 2011-03-15 03:02:00 <Kiba> as if that is a bad thing
395 2011-03-15 03:02:13 <x6763> more goods on the market is a good thing
396 2011-03-15 03:02:32 <blarzong> x6763: not if it means your portfolio tanks in value
397 2011-03-15 03:02:36 <Kiba> witcoin is now sustaining a content market
398 2011-03-15 03:02:52 <blarzong> is more USD good? fire up the printng presses.. is more unsold housing inventory good?
399 2011-03-15 03:02:58 <x6763> blarzong: people make bad investments or shit happens....so what
400 2011-03-15 03:03:21 <blarzong> x6763: insider manipulation is an added category of risk.. it would be a better investment without that
401 2011-03-15 03:03:49 <x6763> more housing means it will be more affordable (assuming the government doesn't try to "help")
402 2011-03-15 03:04:06 <Kiba> this is a fricking non-issue
403 2011-03-15 03:04:09 * Kiba yawn
404 2011-03-15 03:04:16 <blarzong> x6763: youre right, i actually favor that. (unfortunately anyone who has a $200K mortgage will see their networth go negative)
405 2011-03-15 03:04:44 <blarzong> speculation / archaic property rights systems are why housing is so expensive
406 2011-03-15 03:04:45 lfm has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
407 2011-03-15 03:04:51 <ArtForz> blazongtroll still at it?
408 2011-03-15 03:05:14 <forrestv> are there any papers describing bitcoin in more detail than http://www.bitcoin.org/sites/default/files/bitcoin.pdf ?
409 2011-03-15 03:05:22 <forrestv> or what other resource should i use to understand it?
410 2011-03-15 03:05:39 <x6763> so either the market was manipulated (see the government/Fed) or people made bad investments...first case it's a problem created by a violent institution...second case it's a bad purchase...so what
411 2011-03-15 03:05:42 <blarzong> forrestv: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
412 2011-03-15 03:05:44 <justmoon> forrestv: the wiki is where it's at
413 2011-03-15 03:06:53 <blarzong> x6763: an investor doent want to be exposed to certain risks (insiders can play the market against everyone else, so thats a significant risk, unless youre an insider (youre goldman sachs or TBTF))
414 2011-03-15 03:07:43 <x6763> again, so what? people can make their own investment decisions...that's part of the market
415 2011-03-15 03:07:56 <blarzong> justmoon, x6763, kiba are brilliant guys.. you know much more about bitcoin than i do.. i dont even know how it works..
416 2011-03-15 03:08:12 <blarzong> i sure you are well aware of economic forces, supply and demand, etc
417 2011-03-15 03:09:55 <blarzong> x6763: unicorns
418 2011-03-15 03:10:11 <justmoon> blarzong: nobody is saying insider trading doesn't exist, only that you'll eventually go broke doing it, hence goldman sachs etc. needing billion dollar bailouts
419 2011-03-15 03:10:40 <x6763> unless you agreed to some rules/contract to not do insider trading, it's not a problem
420 2011-03-15 03:10:46 <Kiba> me?
421 2011-03-15 03:10:55 <blarzong> you dont go broke. the banks went broke for entirely different reasons
422 2011-03-15 03:11:03 <Kiba> insider trading is a good thing! It bring up information
423 2011-03-15 03:11:08 <Kiba> up to the market
424 2011-03-15 03:11:11 <blarzong> goldman et al. planned to go broke because the short-term gains exceeded the long-term losses
425 2011-03-15 03:11:38 <blarzong> the executives knew they could make personal fortunes of unimaginable size by banjkrupting the system
426 2011-03-15 03:11:51 <blarzong> the bailout was just icing on the whole cake
427 2011-03-15 03:11:53 <justmoon> blarzong: of course, but if they hadn't expected to get bailed out they would have acted differently
428 2011-03-15 03:12:03 <x6763> yes, a very corrupt system made possible by a (inherently corrupt) government
429 2011-03-15 03:12:39 <justmoon> this whole short-term gains thing only works if you can offload the long-term losses onto somebody else
430 2011-03-15 03:12:52 <blarzong> nah, you jsut cash out before the market freezes
431 2011-03-15 03:13:10 <blarzong> but youre right
432 2011-03-15 03:13:15 <blarzong> someone else is left holding the bag
433 2011-03-15 03:13:38 <blarzong> that could be your own employer, pension funds, other banks, etc
434 2011-03-15 03:14:01 <validus> if they were that worried they would have put their own funds in to save their business but instead relied on someone else and blame it on someone else instead of take responsibility
435 2011-03-15 03:14:06 <noagendamarket> funnily enough if I steal a dollar from the shop I go to jail for a long time
436 2011-03-15 03:14:13 <validus> of course they expected a bailout, the movie wall street 2 actually has some facts in it
437 2011-03-15 03:14:42 <noagendamarket> if you steal from a bank = 10 years in prison
438 2011-03-15 03:14:56 <noagendamarket> if a bank steals form you = 0 prison for the bank
439 2011-03-15 03:15:09 <blarzong> the bailout was a nice perk, but they made huge fortunes during the bubble itself and cashed out
440 2011-03-15 03:15:14 <noagendamarket> its good to be the bank :)
441 2011-03-15 03:15:22 <subpar> noagendamarket: If you steal - steal BIG - hundreds of millions not hundres
442 2011-03-15 03:15:24 <blarzong> what do you care if theres a bailout or not, when you have $1bn in a swiss bank acct ?
443 2011-03-15 03:15:39 <luke-jr> â¦
444 2011-03-15 03:15:39 <noagendamarket> subpar maybe so
445 2011-03-15 03:15:58 <validus> doesnt matter what you did, it matters what someone can prove or if you get caught
446 2011-03-15 03:16:09 <justmoon> blarzong: what banker made a billion?!
447 2011-03-15 03:16:23 <validus> i met a guy in jail his ex wife turned him in for embezzling 16 million
448 2011-03-15 03:16:39 <justmoon> even the CEO of goldman sachs doesn't earn that much, they're tiny, compared to the top entrepreneurs of the world
449 2011-03-15 03:16:40 <subpar> hedgies made the Billions not many bakers
450 2011-03-15 03:16:55 <justmoon> as far as private wealth is concerned
451 2011-03-15 03:16:59 <Diablo-D3> er
452 2011-03-15 03:16:59 <subpar> bankers
453 2011-03-15 03:17:17 <justmoon> they *manage* a lot of money, but the "billion dollar bonuses"... that shit is spread across a lot of people
454 2011-03-15 03:17:28 <Diablo-D3> you do realize the CEO of goldman sachs got paid hundreds of millions in _bonuses_ at the top of the banking crisis?
455 2011-03-15 03:17:34 <validus> i woudlnt put a billion in one place
456 2011-03-15 03:17:40 <validus> id have that stashed everywhere where you cant find it
457 2011-03-15 03:17:55 <noagendamarket> lol
458 2011-03-15 03:17:56 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: source?
459 2011-03-15 03:17:57 <subpar> Diablo-D3: not so...
460 2011-03-15 03:18:11 <blarzong> richard fuld, the ceo of lehman bros (the bank whose collapse triggered the GFC) made around $484 million in compensation
461 2011-03-15 03:18:13 <subpar> look at their 10-K
462 2011-03-15 03:18:26 <justmoon> blarzong: over what timespan?
463 2011-03-15 03:18:37 <justmoon> blarzong: also: source?
464 2011-03-15 03:18:39 <Diablo-D3> blarzong: depends how you define collapse
465 2011-03-15 03:18:50 <subpar> dick fuld was a dick
466 2011-03-15 03:18:55 <Diablo-D3> goldman sachs thought up the method on how to securitize shit mortgages
467 2011-03-15 03:18:56 <blarzong> Diablo-D3: as in chapter 11?
468 2011-03-15 03:18:57 lfm has joined
469 2011-03-15 03:19:16 <Diablo-D3> they pulled out of that market around the time everyone else was getting in because they realize it was a very bad idea
470 2011-03-15 03:19:25 <Diablo-D3> so GS profited to hell and back, and everyone else got fucked
471 2011-03-15 03:19:26 <blarzong> justmoon: over 8 years
472 2011-03-15 03:19:43 <Diablo-D3> lehman bros was just one of many banks that got scammed by GS
473 2011-03-15 03:20:05 <justmoon> "Wells Fargo chairman is America's highest paid banker" "John Stumpf, who came from a poor farming family, earned $18m last year, double the pay of Goldman Sachs boss"
474 2011-03-15 03:20:12 <justmoon> source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/feb/16/wells-fargo-chairman-highest-us-earner
475 2011-03-15 03:20:25 <blarzong> lippmann, andrew lahde were a couple hedge fund guys who made close to a billion each on shorting the CDS market
476 2011-03-15 03:20:45 <justmoon> 18m$ is what bill gates makes (or loses) on a bad day :)
477 2011-03-15 03:20:54 <validus> its a lil higher than t hat
478 2011-03-15 03:21:03 <Diablo-D3> justmoon: thats straight out pay
479 2011-03-15 03:21:08 <Diablo-D3> thats not bonuses and stock earnings
480 2011-03-15 03:21:19 <blarzong> yeah that is not their compensation
481 2011-03-15 03:21:21 <validus> whats on paper and what is earned is usually a bit different to
482 2011-03-15 03:22:19 <blarzong> http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/ceopay/
483 2011-03-15 03:22:29 <Diablo-D3> blarzong: depends how you defined "earned"
484 2011-03-15 03:22:29 <blarzong> GS guys are making around $50 million each
485 2011-03-15 03:22:36 <Diablo-D3> if they make $1b in a year, it doesnt matter how they made it
486 2011-03-15 03:22:40 <Diablo-D3> they made it
487 2011-03-15 03:22:47 <Diablo-D3> some CEO is buying a whole fleet of yachts
488 2011-03-15 03:23:03 <Diablo-D3> btw, the news is NOT going to responsibly report this
489 2011-03-15 03:23:03 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: it's actually with bonus
490 2011-03-15 03:23:11 <blarzong> Diablo-D3: made it... by destroying the financial system and everyone home values?
491 2011-03-15 03:23:29 <Diablo-D3> the news was just as part of the destruction of the financial system just as much as the banks were
492 2011-03-15 03:23:32 <blarzong> ary D. Cohn
493 2011-03-15 03:23:32 <blarzong> President and Chief Operating Officer
494 2011-03-15 03:23:44 <blarzong> $600,000 salary $72.5 million total compensation
495 2011-03-15 03:23:48 <blarzong> goldman sachs 2007
496 2011-03-15 03:23:55 <blarzong> not a bad chunk of change
497 2011-03-15 03:24:05 <blarzong> in the years leading up to the crisis guys like fuld made $500 million
498 2011-03-15 03:24:21 <validus> http://i.imgur.com/D58ei.jpg
499 2011-03-15 03:24:33 <blarzong> what is the incentive to care if you are getting bailed out or not when you can earn insane bonuses by taking risks that wont turn sour until a few years later?
500 2011-03-15 03:24:43 <noagendamarket> goldman bought into facebook
501 2011-03-15 03:24:49 <justmoon> blarzong: the best source you could find says $72.5, but hey no reason not to round up and claim 500$ without source
502 2011-03-15 03:25:08 <blarzong> justmoon: false
503 2011-03-15 03:25:16 <blarzong> take total compensation in the bubble years
504 2011-03-15 03:25:19 <blarzong> not "just 2007"
505 2011-03-15 03:25:23 <blarzong> http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5965360&page=1 here you go
506 2011-03-15 03:25:29 <blarzong> Lehman Brothers Boss Defends $484 Million in Salary, Bonus
507 2011-03-15 03:25:57 <blarzong> why would fuld care if he bankrupts lehman, when he walks away with half a billion?
508 2011-03-15 03:25:58 <Diablo-D3> [11:24:03] <validus> http://i.imgur.com/D58ei.jpg
509 2011-03-15 03:26:06 <Diablo-D3> FUCKING RICH PEOPLE
510 2011-03-15 03:26:10 <blarzong> haha
511 2011-03-15 03:26:16 <validus> hehe
512 2011-03-15 03:26:19 <validus> i laughed so hard
513 2011-03-15 03:27:00 Slix` has joined
514 2011-03-15 03:27:18 <blarzong> justmoon: the market is constantly being manipulated by the powerful interests. theres no free market in existence
515 2011-03-15 03:27:55 <blarzong> this is mainly a failure of democracy - wall st bribes congress to give it special treatment / privileges
516 2011-03-15 03:28:13 <validus> this is nothing really new
517 2011-03-15 03:28:33 <justmoon> blarzong: yep, congress makes laws for the highest bidder, no argument there
518 2011-03-15 03:28:46 <Diablo-D3> man
519 2011-03-15 03:28:50 <justmoon> blarzong: I'm only saying you should be pissed at congress, not at the highest bidder
520 2011-03-15 03:28:50 <Diablo-D3> I just had a hilarious idea
521 2011-03-15 03:28:52 <blarzong> indeed. i was recommending the 1923 book "reminisces of a stock operator" for a good intro on all the scams.. which havent changed since then.. and at the time of writing, the author copmains the scams havent changed since the us stock markets opened in the 1800s
522 2011-03-15 03:28:53 <Diablo-D3> Im going to run for president
523 2011-03-15 03:28:56 Slix` has quit (Client Quit)
524 2011-03-15 03:28:56 <Diablo-D3> on bitcoin donations over
525 2011-03-15 03:28:57 <Diablo-D3> er
526 2011-03-15 03:28:58 <Diablo-D3> only
527 2011-03-15 03:29:08 <Diablo-D3> and since i have about a decade before Im old enough to run
528 2011-03-15 03:29:12 <Diablo-D3> you better start donating now
529 2011-03-15 03:29:19 <validus> lol
530 2011-03-15 03:29:25 <blarzong> justmoon: good point
531 2011-03-15 03:30:15 <Kiba> w00t, a profit!
532 2011-03-15 03:30:24 <justmoon> also aside from evil speculating, I also want to point out that good banking and speculation is an extremely important function to coordinate resource use and allow entrepreneurs to work etc.
533 2011-03-15 03:30:45 <blarzong> justmoon: you seem to know a lot about ifnance.. are you in economics?
534 2011-03-15 03:30:59 <justmoon> blarzong: fifth semester business studies
535 2011-03-15 03:31:03 <blarzong> ahh cool
536 2011-03-15 03:31:32 <blarzong> unfortunately speculation is actually rent-seeking, predatory behavior. it provides no benefit to mankind, despite what speculators would like everyone else to believe
537 2011-03-15 03:31:57 <justmoon> ok, so let's say there is a copper shortage coming and everybody ignores it
538 2011-03-15 03:32:06 <justmoon> a speculator can buy copper now, which raises the price
539 2011-03-15 03:32:12 <justmoon> people will try and use less copper NOW
540 2011-03-15 03:32:18 <justmoon> instead of waiting until it runs out
541 2011-03-15 03:32:20 <Diablo-D3> except speculation is not your enemy
542 2011-03-15 03:32:30 <Diablo-D3> its protecting speculators that is the problem
543 2011-03-15 03:32:39 <Diablo-D3> _owning stock_ is speculation.
544 2011-03-15 03:33:09 <Diablo-D3> those bank and car bailouts bush did? he wasnt saving companies, he was saving rich speculators.
545 2011-03-15 03:33:15 <Diablo-D3> THIS is where shit went wrong
546 2011-03-15 03:33:35 <justmoon> Diablo-D3: amen
547 2011-03-15 03:34:31 <Kiba> Yes! another thread profitable
548 2011-03-15 03:34:32 <Kiba> :D
549 2011-03-15 03:35:22 <x6763> there's nothing wrong with speculating...in fact it's part of how the brain functions...you can't predict or know the future with anything close to 100% accuracy...you *must* speculate if you make any decision whatsoever
550 2011-03-15 03:36:13 <justmoon> x6763: I'd even go as far as to say that pump and dump and insider trading is *not* speculating at all, but basic fraud
551 2011-03-15 03:36:23 <justmoon> it's like selling fake gold
552 2011-03-15 03:36:34 <justmoon> same basic principle
553 2011-03-15 03:38:30 <genjix> Diablo-D3: how old are you? 10?
554 2011-03-15 03:38:36 <genjix> < Diablo-D3> and since i have about a decade before Im old enough to run
555 2011-03-15 03:38:45 <blarzong> if i buy all the rice in india, and hoard it in my warehouse or charge exorbitant fees, people will starve... that is exactly what happened in the mid-2000s commodities bubble http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-how-goldman-gambled-on-starvation-2016088.html
556 2011-03-15 03:38:57 <x6763> yeah, if there's false statements made in attempt to drive up the price, i'd agree that it is fraud
557 2011-03-15 03:38:59 <nanotube> genjix: min age for president in usa is 35
558 2011-03-15 03:39:00 <validus> they moved the age to 20 to run for president?
559 2011-03-15 03:39:13 <genjix> nanotube: really? is that a fact?
560 2011-03-15 03:39:17 <blarzong> the death toll from the food bubble is hard to quantify
561 2011-03-15 03:39:18 <genjix> weird rule
562 2011-03-15 03:39:30 * justmoon is trying to picture a 20 year old US president o_O
563 2011-03-15 03:39:43 <validus> lol
564 2011-03-15 03:39:49 <nanotube> genjix: yea, you can check on the net to confirm. :)
565 2011-03-15 03:40:03 <nanotube> justmoon: he's unlikely to screw shit up any worse than any of the old farts did. haha
566 2011-03-15 03:40:04 <blarzong> http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/07/0083022 How Wall Street starved millions and got away with it
567 2011-03-15 03:40:17 <blarzong> wall street bought up all the staples, rice, wheat, etc... hoarded them, and people starved
568 2011-03-15 03:40:23 <Diablo-D3> [11:38:11] <genjix> Diablo-D3: how old are you? 10?
569 2011-03-15 03:40:27 <Diablo-D3> read the constitution, douchebag
570 2011-03-15 03:40:30 <Diablo-D3> you have to be 45.
571 2011-03-15 03:40:56 <blarzong> the demand for basic staples is fairly inelastic.. so the market absorbs the price shock.. but you know who cant absorb the price increase? the poorest.. who simply starve to death
572 2011-03-15 03:41:02 <validus> 35, but the youngest president was 44
573 2011-03-15 03:41:29 <validus> 43*
574 2011-03-15 03:41:43 <validus> One must also be at least 35 years of age to be president. John F. Kennedy was the youngest person to be elected president; he was 43 years old when he was inaugurated in 1961. There is no maximum age limit set forth in the Constitution. Ronald Reagan was the oldest president; at the end of his term in 1988, he was nearly 77.
575 2011-03-15 03:42:08 <blarzong> you had global hunger caused by the wall street engineered bubble in food prices
576 2011-03-15 03:42:33 <genjix> Diablo-D3: OH IM SORRY
577 2011-03-15 03:42:40 <genjix> for not being an american
578 2011-03-15 03:42:42 <blarzong> wheat doubled over the course of like 18 months - do you really think people suddenly decided to eat twice as much bread in 18 months? the price was a bubble
579 2011-03-15 03:43:02 <justmoon> Diablo-D3, genjix: damn, guys, what is with the agression?
580 2011-03-15 03:43:14 <genjix> justmoon: no aggression just joking :)
581 2011-03-15 03:43:22 <justmoon> ok *huggles* :)
582 2011-03-15 03:43:37 <Kiba> starve million?
583 2011-03-15 03:43:44 <Kiba> is it just another case of post hoc?
584 2011-03-15 03:44:00 <blarzong> Kiba: if the price of rice is double, how can a poor villager eat
585 2011-03-15 03:44:04 <Kiba> there's a difference between starving millions and supply being ruin for another reason
586 2011-03-15 03:44:39 <Kiba> I guess, a villager eats less
587 2011-03-15 03:44:49 <x6763> or spends less money on other things
588 2011-03-15 03:45:03 <Kiba> people are poor for lot of reasons
589 2011-03-15 03:45:04 <blarzong> literally food staples doubled in price over 18 months.. not because people were suddenly eating twice as much food.. but because wall st moved all their money into those assets. now its better to sell to other speculators (and those who can afford the price shock) than to sell to the villager who needs it or he starves
590 2011-03-15 03:45:36 <blarzong> the global pool of money can be redirected into any asset, making it unaffordable for ppl who actually need the asset
591 2011-03-15 03:45:40 <Kiba> how do you know villagers are starving?
592 2011-03-15 03:46:15 <blarzong> kiba, a guy making $1 a day can afford to pay twice as much for food , when his community is already malnourished?
593 2011-03-15 03:46:51 <blarzong> At the end of 2006, food prices across the world started to rise, suddenly and stratospherically. Within a year, the price of wheat had shot up by 80 per cent, maize by 90 per cent, rice by 320 per cent. In a global jolt of hunger, 200 million people mostly children couldnt afford to get food any more, and sank into malnutrition or starvation. There were riots in more than 30 countries,
594 2011-03-15 03:46:51 <Kiba> I heard poor harvest was the cause
595 2011-03-15 03:47:04 <blarzong> so you had the bubble in 2006-2008... now in 2011, theres a new bubble coming up
596 2011-03-15 03:47:19 <blarzong> Kiba: rght, that is a signal which caused the speculative frenzy.. now its pure emotion
597 2011-03-15 03:47:21 <Kiba> did you check the productions of food?
598 2011-03-15 03:47:39 <blarzong> yes its down slightly
599 2011-03-15 03:47:48 <blarzong> or rather yield estimates are down
600 2011-03-15 03:48:13 <blarzong> but the price spiked out of proportion to the actual decline in production estimates in 2011
601 2011-03-15 03:48:17 <Kiba> without spectulation, the price swing would be worse
602 2011-03-15 03:48:28 <blarzong> now it would be negligible
603 2011-03-15 03:48:49 <Kiba> well, I only know what you tell me
604 2011-03-15 03:49:04 <blarzong> you seem to know a lot about it tho
605 2011-03-15 03:49:09 <blarzong> are you a trader
606 2011-03-15 03:49:20 <da2ce7> speculation is saving us from major famine in the furure
607 2011-03-15 03:49:38 <da2ce7> a bit of pain now, (higer pices), less pain in the future.
608 2011-03-15 03:49:41 <blarzong> so if the price of rice is 3x .. when most of the worlds population lives on it... theyre going to be starved.. its a horrific tragedy
609 2011-03-15 03:49:54 <justmoon> Kiba: food price spikes are likely related to beginning US dollar inflation - many smaller and poorer countries like tunesia and egypt have their currencies tied to the dollar, so they get hit by inflation first - since as blarzong correctly points our food staples are the main good people in poor countries can't live without, you see food prices spike first
610 2011-03-15 03:50:06 <da2ce7> better than the price going up 10x in 2 years.
611 2011-03-15 03:50:08 <justmoon> but *all* commodity prices are rising: http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/futures/
612 2011-03-15 03:50:15 <blarzong> da2ce7: and why would that happen
613 2011-03-15 03:50:31 <Kiba> I don't trade. I sucks at spectulation.
614 2011-03-15 03:50:41 <justmoon> it's inflation, when you print money, prices go up, but different ones at different times
615 2011-03-15 03:50:45 <Kiba> justmoon: the situation is exabbercated by unproductive economies
616 2011-03-15 03:50:50 <da2ce7> blarzong, if price of food was low now, less farmers will be produceing the stuff
617 2011-03-15 03:50:52 <justmoon> and yes, inflation hits the poorest the hardest
618 2011-03-15 03:50:53 <blarzong> commodities prices are disconnected from reality. they are determined by bubble psychology (speculators pile into certain asset classes and form a bubble. they reinforce each other by driving up the prices. until theres a panic and sell-off, the herd moves on to destroy something else)
619 2011-03-15 03:51:07 <da2ce7> so when all our reserves are used up, then the price skyrockets.
620 2011-03-15 03:51:13 <Kiba> the rich(us) can deal with teh food price, but hte poor can't
621 2011-03-15 03:51:34 <justmoon> Kiba: they always blame inflation on bad production, Zimbabwe's central banker Kono blamed food prices in his country on a drought
622 2011-03-15 03:51:42 <blarzong> da2ce7: without speculators, supply and demand would dictate prices yes. now speculation can cause rice to triple in a year. are people suddenly demanding 3 times more rice? its not related to supply and demand at all. its bubble psychology
623 2011-03-15 03:51:54 <blarzong> when did people start eating 3 times as much food
624 2011-03-15 03:51:54 <Kiba> justmoon: lack of infrastructure to deal with the drought
625 2011-03-15 03:52:07 <Kiba> if they have the money, they could have a water desalinater plant to bring enough water
626 2011-03-15 03:52:11 <Kiba> from the ocean
627 2011-03-15 03:52:22 <da2ce7> blarzong, how do you increase production? you raise the price.
628 2011-03-15 03:52:23 <justmoon> Kiba: there was no drought, what was different was that the central bank was printing shitloads of money
629 2011-03-15 03:52:36 <da2ce7> if the price goes up now, that will make more production in the future.
630 2011-03-15 03:52:43 <justmoon> more money chasing the same goods -> prices rise
631 2011-03-15 03:52:57 <blarzong> da2ce7: thats supply and demand. speculation is unrelated to it
632 2011-03-15 03:53:06 <da2ce7> better to have the price rise sooner than later.
633 2011-03-15 03:53:18 <justmoon> the fed has printed shitloads. and blarzong, the "evil speculator" are actually still mostly sitting on it: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EXCRESNS
634 2011-03-15 03:53:21 <da2ce7> the sooner the price rise, the lower the price rise will be in the long run.
635 2011-03-15 03:53:41 <Kiba> justmoon: but eventually the new money must enter the economy at some point
636 2011-03-15 03:53:49 <blarzong> but you bring up a good point.. how do you define what speculation is exactly.. is a supermarket speculating when it buys parsley in advance.. however the quantities involved make it pretty clear what is speculation and what isnt
637 2011-03-15 03:53:50 <justmoon> Kiba: exactly
638 2011-03-15 03:54:14 <xg0d> they could use haarp to regulate the whole worlds water fall
639 2011-03-15 03:54:16 <xg0d> im just sayin
640 2011-03-15 03:54:19 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
641 2011-03-15 03:54:31 <blarzong> speculation is equivalent to an army coming to your town, taking all your food and assets by force, and then leaving. money=power. now you must be the armys slave in order to get your assets back
642 2011-03-15 03:54:50 <blarzong> so the bankers march into an asset, buy it up, and now the consumers cant afford it
643 2011-03-15 03:54:50 <da2ce7> blarzong, that is completely wrong.
644 2011-03-15 03:54:51 * Kiba sigh
645 2011-03-15 03:54:58 <blarzong> its entirely accurate
646 2011-03-15 03:55:04 <validus> lol
647 2011-03-15 03:55:34 <validus> so your saying anyone who speculates is a slaver
648 2011-03-15 03:55:40 <blarzong> taking asets by force or by dint of huge liquidity reserves (leveraged 100 times, so they have 100 trillion to corner the market)
649 2011-03-15 03:55:42 <Kiba> spectulators, as I used to be one, die and live by his ability to predict
650 2011-03-15 03:55:43 <blarzong> validus: yes
651 2011-03-15 03:55:47 <validus> lol
652 2011-03-15 03:55:56 <validus> thats the most funniest thing ive heard in weeks
653 2011-03-15 03:56:02 <validus> thank you for that
654 2011-03-15 03:56:05 <blarzong> sometimes the truth makes ppl laugh
655 2011-03-15 03:56:08 <Kiba> I am no good, so I left
656 2011-03-15 03:56:15 <Kiba> blarzong: sometime you're just wrong ;)
657 2011-03-15 03:56:17 <da2ce7> speculations is when you see a resorce being having a higher demand in the future, and want to make money on it's price rise.... The side effect of that is the price rise happens sooner, and in the long run the price will rise to a lower level.
658 2011-03-15 03:56:18 <validus> believe what you need to there buddy
659 2011-03-15 03:56:18 <blarzong> validus: do you really think people arent slaves to money?
660 2011-03-15 03:56:26 <validus> dont forget your tinfoil hat to
661 2011-03-15 03:56:43 <blarzong> heh validus i forgot you live in a world where money doesn't matter
662 2011-03-15 03:56:47 <justmoon> blarzong: cornering the market doesn't do you any good, if you sell or buy at an artificial price people *will* take the opposite position and make a profit off of your loss
663 2011-03-15 03:56:59 <justmoon> blarzong: only when you create a "bubble" can you make a profit
664 2011-03-15 03:57:00 <validus> no i never said that but your thoughts ona speculator are hilarious
665 2011-03-15 03:57:06 <validus> and your way to emotional
666 2011-03-15 03:57:16 <justmoon> cornering the market by itself is just really expensive
667 2011-03-15 03:57:27 <validus> dont have any thought of whats going to change or your a slaver and condemned by your own words
668 2011-03-15 03:57:32 <justmoon> otherwise it would be a popular measure for warring countries
669 2011-03-15 03:57:46 <blarzong> validus: english pls
670 2011-03-15 03:57:50 <da2ce7> cornering the market has deminishing returns.
671 2011-03-15 03:58:01 <validus> its fine english. read it
672 2011-03-15 03:58:08 <blarzong> validus: it's ?
673 2011-03-15 03:58:12 <Kiba> this is boring
674 2011-03-15 03:58:12 <blarzong> "you're" ?
675 2011-03-15 03:58:16 <da2ce7> as the higher the price, the more you need to spend to keep it cornerd.
676 2011-03-15 03:58:18 <blarzong> slaver?
677 2011-03-15 03:58:24 <validus> oh your a grammar nazi now to change the subject cuz i made you ridiculed?
678 2011-03-15 03:58:29 <validus> whatever . your a failed troll
679 2011-03-15 03:58:38 <blarzong> validus: im not, just your chat is becomingly increasingly unparseable
680 2011-03-15 03:58:49 <blarzong> i could care less about grammar, but your last few statements were totally incomprehensible
681 2011-03-15 03:58:52 <validus> and yes im typing your now on purpose just to make your grammer nazi shit even worst.
682 2011-03-15 03:58:52 <blarzong> sorry
683 2011-03-15 03:58:55 <justmoon> da2ce7: it has no returns by itself, remember you have to get rid of your stuff at some point
684 2011-03-15 03:58:59 <validus> no their perfectly comprehensible
685 2011-03-15 03:59:03 <blarzong> validus: youre getting very worked up
686 2011-03-15 03:59:04 <validus> your just mad
687 2011-03-15 03:59:07 <blarzong> have some tea
688 2011-03-15 03:59:07 <Kiba> the amount of chatting and nonsense produced in this channel is becoming unbearable
689 2011-03-15 03:59:09 <validus> LOL
690 2011-03-15 03:59:24 <blarzong> < validus> dont have any thought of whats going to change or your a slaver and condemned by your own words <-- this is basically giberrish
691 2011-03-15 03:59:27 <justmoon> da2ce7: if you want to corner the market for wheat, sure you can sell expensive wheat, but eventually you'll have to get rid of the wheat you bought to corner the market
692 2011-03-15 03:59:29 <validus> im going to speculate how many more lines of text i get that make no sense from blarzong
693 2011-03-15 03:59:38 <validus> well put it with the other line then
694 2011-03-15 03:59:48 <blarzong> validus: you are butthurt and spouting gibberish. im not interested. youre ignored
695 2011-03-15 03:59:50 <validus> i need not to explain myself to you
696 2011-03-15 03:59:54 <validus> im not butthurt
697 2011-03-15 03:59:56 <justmoon> da2ce7: that only works ponzi scheme style if you find somebody who believes in the higher price
698 2011-03-15 03:59:59 <da2ce7> justmoon, by that time the production will have cought up to the new pice.
699 2011-03-15 04:00:06 <validus> nothing goes in my butt. your just a damn retard that cant comprehend english or what terms are
700 2011-03-15 04:00:14 <da2ce7> like the tulip
701 2011-03-15 04:00:14 <xg0d> all i know is
702 2011-03-15 04:00:17 <validus> if you speculate your a slaver. wtf kind of b ullshit is that
703 2011-03-15 04:00:19 <xg0d> organic miilks is bamf
704 2011-03-15 04:00:20 <justmoon> da2ce7: exactly, making it even more costly to sell off your stuff
705 2011-03-15 04:00:30 <blarzong> anyway, bankers corner the market through huge liquidity pools just as someone takes property by force. theres no difference whatsoever. speculation is simply parasitic rent-seeking behavior that is disconnected from any fundamental value
706 2011-03-15 04:00:33 <validus> sounds like a failed liberal to me
707 2011-03-15 04:00:47 <blarzong> its a social plague. i know speculators would like ppl to believe they are "helping" everyone by starving ppl in third world countries, sure
708 2011-03-15 04:00:50 <validus> i bet he thinks the guy flipping burgers at burger king should drive a mercedes like the ceo doews
709 2011-03-15 04:00:53 <validus> does*
710 2011-03-15 04:00:59 <xg0d> depends on your idea of liberal
711 2011-03-15 04:01:07 <justmoon> blarzong: I liked you better when you tried to use arguments instead of regurgitated polemic
712 2011-03-15 04:01:08 <validus> in this case extremist
713 2011-03-15 04:01:15 <xg0d> i prefer to choose classic liberalism over everything
714 2011-03-15 04:01:17 <validus> like this dude going off
715 2011-03-15 04:01:24 <xg0d> but not the new age
716 2011-03-15 04:01:41 <da2ce7> blarzong the the problem with your agument, is providing you dont' use violence to obtain your funds, speculation is a benifit to everyone.
717 2011-03-15 04:01:43 <justmoon> xg0d: I'm on board with classic liberalism
718 2011-03-15 04:01:45 <blarzong> the hunger crisis of 2066-2008 was a completely manmade disaster. wall street's bubble resulted in a global disaster for those who couldn't afford basic necessities
719 2011-03-15 04:01:46 <xg0d> i just want to safetly buy an island and make my own country
720 2011-03-15 04:01:49 <validus> thats like the one guy that told me the gov't was telling him to kill himself through the radio
721 2011-03-15 04:02:00 <xg0d> lol
722 2011-03-15 04:02:02 <xg0d> well
723 2011-03-15 04:02:05 <xg0d> what is truth
724 2011-03-15 04:02:10 <validus> but blarzong is just extremist and i think its a failed troll
725 2011-03-15 04:02:10 <blarzong> da2ce7: whats the difference if i take all the wheat crops by force, or if us the legal/banking system to do it?
726 2011-03-15 04:02:12 <xg0d> truth is perception of the world
727 2011-03-15 04:02:19 <validus> if you speculate your a slaver. i think im going to quote that
728 2011-03-15 04:02:21 <xg0d> so perhaps the radio is telling him to kill himself
729 2011-03-15 04:02:49 <x6763> blarzong: if you use the legal system, you are by definition using force...if you use the banking system created by the legal system, you are also by definition using force
730 2011-03-15 04:02:50 <xg0d> i do understand where blarzong is comming from
731 2011-03-15 04:02:51 <validus> i dont try to comprehend things like that as they have no personal benefit to me :P
732 2011-03-15 04:03:03 <da2ce7> blarzong, both is violence, both are causing harm... but speculation wasn't the issue. Force was the issue.
733 2011-03-15 04:03:04 <xg0d> validus lol!!
734 2011-03-15 04:03:16 <justmoon> validus: +1
735 2011-03-15 04:03:18 <x6763> but do not equate violence/force with speculation
736 2011-03-15 04:03:34 <blarzong> ppl have the vague notion they would like prices to reflect actual demand. so that people will not waste valuable resources. thats great. but speculators can effectively corner any market at all of their own choosing (and the decision is made by bubble psychollogy, see shillers latest book titled "animal spirits"). so instead of regulating demand, people are held hostage
737 2011-03-15 04:03:54 <validus> we got another dog whisperer
738 2011-03-15 04:04:05 <da2ce7> speculation is not not a complete subset of violence
739 2011-03-15 04:04:13 <justmoon> blarzong: cornering a market is not speculation (you are not speculating on anything, you know exactly what will happen), so just call it fraud or something else
740 2011-03-15 04:04:25 <validus> funny. he is comparing free thought on something to violence
741 2011-03-15 04:04:25 <blarzong> free market/ supply-side, trickle down economics is not really something anyone can take seriously
742 2011-03-15 04:04:28 <xg0d> i think if we just took the system we have now in america, and tweaked it. say here and there with some socialism and opensource ideas. the whole plan would work, for one,. just decentralize voting and currency.
743 2011-03-15 04:04:31 <validus> i believe someone is a sheep
744 2011-03-15 04:04:45 <xg0d> then correct conflicting laws
745 2011-03-15 04:04:53 <Kiba> oh for the love of Eris, can someone strip his attack from his actual arguments
746 2011-03-15 04:04:59 <da2ce7> justmoon, if you ain't using violence and corner the market, you are being very stupid and giving money away.
747 2011-03-15 04:05:00 <xg0d> like for isntance corporate entities shouldnt hold office in their corporations field
748 2011-03-15 04:05:00 <x6763> blarzong: so you believe in violent economics?
749 2011-03-15 04:05:07 <blarzong> justmoon: except when bubble psychology is involved. traders coordinate their activity because they all want to ride the bubble
750 2011-03-15 04:05:11 <validus> lol kiba
751 2011-03-15 04:05:17 <justmoon> da2ce7: exactly, that's what I've tried to explain
752 2011-03-15 04:05:21 <xg0d> like Mosanto workers shouldnt be FDA chairmen
753 2011-03-15 04:05:27 <x6763> blarzong: you believe that you should force people to make certain economic decisions or use force to prevent them from making certain economics decisions
754 2011-03-15 04:05:30 <x6763> ?
755 2011-03-15 04:05:31 <xg0d> thats a conflict of interest
756 2011-03-15 04:05:32 <blarzong> justmoon: its tacit collusion.. they all have incentive to do the same thing, without overtly coordinating
757 2011-03-15 04:05:56 <validus> no he is saying you shouldnt have any free thought or able to have freedom to do what you want and live basically told how to think and act
758 2011-03-15 04:05:56 <xg0d> there should be no such thing as a career politician
759 2011-03-15 04:06:02 <justmoon> blarzong: yes, but if more people understood economics they'd beware of bubbles
760 2011-03-15 04:06:09 <validus> he is disguising his liberal comments with other forms of polotics
761 2011-03-15 04:06:13 <validus> like marxisms, etc
762 2011-03-15 04:06:16 * Kiba yawn
763 2011-03-15 04:06:17 <xg0d> yea
764 2011-03-15 04:06:18 <xg0d> hmm
765 2011-03-15 04:06:20 <validus> politics*
766 2011-03-15 04:06:22 <Kiba> this is fucking boring
767 2011-03-15 04:06:32 <blarzong> http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Spirits-Psychology-Economy-Capitalism/dp/0691142335 <-- "animal spirits". the market is driven by bubble psychology, not any rational fundamentals or expectations of supply and demand
768 2011-03-15 04:06:47 <xg0d> i think corporations should label where they get their labor from
769 2011-03-15 04:06:48 <dwdollar> Nikkei is down over 12%. That's almost -20% for anyone counting. Poor Japan.
770 2011-03-15 04:06:49 <validus> its like a level up troll. you get people interested with real things and slowly work in your real argument
771 2011-03-15 04:06:50 * da2ce7 is over the whole 'speculation is bad,' has argued it too death.
772 2011-03-15 04:06:50 <xg0d> =]
773 2011-03-15 04:07:00 <xg0d> not just "made in tawain"
774 2011-03-15 04:07:00 <justmoon> blarzong: counterlink - and mine's a video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
775 2011-03-15 04:07:08 <xg0d> but "made in tawian by 6 year olds"
776 2011-03-15 04:07:17 <blarzong> im for maximal freedom and human flourishing. the so-called "free-market" is keeping mankind in perpetual subsistence and bondage. if you want freedom, you are anti-capitalism
777 2011-03-15 04:07:25 <justmoon> blarzong: animal spirit is bullshit economics (yes, it's also mainstream economics right now)
778 2011-03-15 04:07:30 <da2ce7> 'speculation is bad' 'deflation is bad' 'freechoice is bad' 'your mum is bad in bed'
779 2011-03-15 04:07:40 <xg0d> deflation is great!
780 2011-03-15 04:07:41 <validus> da2ce7: drink more
781 2011-03-15 04:07:42 <validus> lol
782 2011-03-15 04:08:04 <justmoon> da2ce7: how do you know how his mum is in bed?
783 2011-03-15 04:08:07 <x6763> blarzong: how anyone can take seriously the idea that people should violently force their beliefs and opinions on others and use violence as the first resort to solving problems?
784 2011-03-15 04:08:21 <blarzong> justmoon: not at all.. behavioral economics has been around for decades. traders chase bubbles. thats all their is to it.
785 2011-03-15 04:08:30 <da2ce7> justmoon, all of the statments were not true...
786 2011-03-15 04:08:31 <xg0d> x6763 that is the human nature when reminded of their mortality
787 2011-03-15 04:08:37 <xg0d> i seen that in a documentary yesterday lol
788 2011-03-15 04:08:42 <validus> lol
789 2011-03-15 04:08:46 <blarzong> x6763: that is what capitalism does. if you believe in violent enforcement of slavery that is capitalism
790 2011-03-15 04:08:48 <justmoon> blarzong: yes, it has been around for millenia even, it's still as wrong today as it was back then
791 2011-03-15 04:08:55 <xg0d> they reminder of death is what drives our actions.
792 2011-03-15 04:09:09 <x6763> blarzong: you sure have a strange definition of capitalism
793 2011-03-15 04:09:11 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
794 2011-03-15 04:09:14 <validus> im waiting for the koolaid to come out
795 2011-03-15 04:09:19 <validus> or the praise me as your leader
796 2011-03-15 04:09:31 <blarzong> x6763: by strange you mean correct? interesting
797 2011-03-15 04:09:34 <dirtyfilthy> this koolaid tastes like almonds ;_;
798 2011-03-15 04:09:36 <blarzong> you have a strange definition of strange
799 2011-03-15 04:09:40 <justmoon> blarzong: perhaps wrong is the wrong word - it describes perceived reality, just not ultimate reality - people can at any time choose to rise above "animal spirits"
800 2011-03-15 04:09:49 <xg0d> ive never heard of a shnoze berry
801 2011-03-15 04:09:53 bk128 has joined
802 2011-03-15 04:09:57 <validus> whats sad is if he really t hinks he is right
803 2011-03-15 04:10:10 <validus> thats a whole mix of alot of things together. pro stalin right there
804 2011-03-15 04:10:14 <da2ce7> koolaid, makes you Keynesian... that is worse than death.
805 2011-03-15 04:10:16 <xg0d> idek whats going on here
806 2011-03-15 04:10:24 <x6763> "capitalism: an economic system based on private ownership of capital"
807 2011-03-15 04:10:25 <xg0d> keynesian lulz everywhere
808 2011-03-15 04:10:36 <xg0d> private ownership is the devil
809 2011-03-15 04:10:40 <blarzong> anyway, if you want to voluntarily be a slave to goldman sachs, and any other trader who can control your networth, thats your decision
810 2011-03-15 04:10:50 <blarzong> ppl interested in freedom do not want to be slaves to the investment bankers
811 2011-03-15 04:10:53 <xg0d> well, unless u privatly own your privates ofcourse
812 2011-03-15 04:10:53 <validus> just kill yourself, end it all
813 2011-03-15 04:11:36 <nanotube> justmoon: that's kind of like saying 'people can at any time choose to stop being stupid'. that's just not realistic. :)
814 2011-03-15 04:12:06 <blarzong> the decision to buy an asset has nothing to do with the fundamental demand for that asset.. it has to do with where global pools of money are resting at any given time.. goldman decides the global pool of liquidity is going to be sitting in commodities, now you cant afford to eat
815 2011-03-15 04:12:25 <blarzong> or houses, now houses are unaffordable.. speculation is just rampant price shocks from one asset to another.. periodically occurring
816 2011-03-15 04:12:27 <nanotube> justmoon: but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which i'm not even really following. just figured i'd throw that in for good measure hehe.
817 2011-03-15 04:12:49 <justmoon> nanotube: I'd be all for making an idiot proof world, except for one little thing: in an idiot proof world, people don't have any incentive to get smarter
818 2011-03-15 04:13:09 <da2ce7> sometimes it take a revolution for people to open their eyes and reject Keynesian lies they have been eating. But with those revolutions you need to provide a functional altanative or else everyone will just slip back into their old habbits.
819 2011-03-15 04:13:23 <blarzong> anyway i think justmoon , validus, da2ce7 are smart guys with an expert grasp of economics...
820 2011-03-15 04:13:49 <Kiba> and we disagree with you
821 2011-03-15 04:13:54 <Kiba> so somebody gottach be right
822 2011-03-15 04:14:18 <FellowTraveler> I swear if Western powers don't go in now and cut off Gaddafi's head, the entire Libyan population will be so disillusioned against the West after this.
823 2011-03-15 04:14:19 <x6763> blarzong: ever read human action?
824 2011-03-15 04:15:07 <Kiba> I am only trained by firece argumentation
825 2011-03-15 04:15:19 <FellowTraveler> If 10,000 people get hit by a tsunami, we send ships right away. If 10,000 people get bombed by their own dictator, we have tea and lunch in Brussels and we discuss sanctions.
826 2011-03-15 04:15:21 <FellowTraveler> People are dying.
827 2011-03-15 04:15:31 <nanotube> justmoon: as i said, nothing to do with the discussion at hand. :) but this ben franklin quote is relevant: 'We should make the poor uncomfortable, to kick them out of poverty.'. incentives ftw. :)
828 2011-03-15 04:15:50 <FellowTraveler> Might as well dismantle the UN since the whole purpose of it was to shut down dictators killing crowds of people.
829 2011-03-15 04:15:54 <nanotube> FellowTraveler: yep, stupidity as usual.
830 2011-03-15 04:16:01 <blarzong> x6763: yeah parts of it.. he wants prices to reflect actual demand. but it neglects the impact of oligpoolies and ofrces that can set price by fiat. the banks can essentially set the price for any asset they want
831 2011-03-15 04:16:10 <justmoon> nanotube: agreed
832 2011-03-15 04:16:17 <FellowTraveler> Anyway once those people are using free money, dictators probably won't even be possible anymore
833 2011-03-15 04:16:31 <Kiba> oligopolies can't set price by fiat forever
834 2011-03-15 04:16:43 <xg0d> wtf did i just read
835 2011-03-15 04:16:48 <xg0d> oligopolies
836 2011-03-15 04:16:49 <Kiba> eventually their little cartel fall apart because somebody can cheat the agreement and make lot of money
837 2011-03-15 04:16:54 <xg0d> fun word to think
838 2011-03-15 04:17:00 <da2ce7> http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/MarxismUnmasked.pdf
839 2011-03-15 04:17:02 <blarzong> free marketers claim they want prices to be accurate reflections of supply/demand/market forces/so we dont waste things. great. but what if one dictator can set prices (a political dictator, a financial dictator, etc.) goldman has the liquidity to outvote the entire market
840 2011-03-15 04:17:09 <da2ce7> one of the best free books that I have read.
841 2011-03-15 04:17:10 <da2ce7> :)
842 2011-03-15 04:17:23 <FellowTraveler> human action by mises, I recommend even just the first page
843 2011-03-15 04:17:44 <Kiba> the free marketeers do free books
844 2011-03-15 04:17:55 <validus> im curious what makes him an expert
845 2011-03-15 04:17:56 <Kiba> mises.org's library is free for anybody to read
846 2011-03-15 04:18:01 <justmoon> da2ce7: link broken
847 2011-03-15 04:18:08 <blarzong> goldman can decide rice is 10 times more expensive, or houses are worth 25% of their revious value.. because they are in control of huge liquidity reserves (they and their ibank friends / central banks / etc). its a dictatorship not a market
848 2011-03-15 04:18:09 <FellowTraveler> read the book and see.
849 2011-03-15 04:18:14 <da2ce7> hmm, finding a new one
850 2011-03-15 04:18:31 <validus> you suggesting living in a dictatorship just a different one
851 2011-03-15 04:18:50 <validus> your told what you can charge, sell, eat, do, bank, invest, jobs
852 2011-03-15 04:18:59 <blarzong> im suggesting living in a free world, where everyone has the freedom to be happy
853 2011-03-15 04:19:04 <validus> thats what ive gotten from your comments
854 2011-03-15 04:19:27 <blarzong> validus: paste where i said you should follow a dictator. you are suffering from 50 years of capitalist propaganda from early pre-school
855 2011-03-15 04:19:35 <validus> LOL
856 2011-03-15 04:19:39 <blarzong> hehe
857 2011-03-15 04:19:48 <blarzong> i said the complete opposite of what youre claiming
858 2011-03-15 04:19:54 <validus> you need to quit watching tv :P
859 2011-03-15 04:20:15 <Kiba> you guys need to stop making insult and make real arguments like real men of reasons
860 2011-03-15 04:20:28 <da2ce7> what is a good pdf upload site?
861 2011-03-15 04:20:29 <justmoon> Kiba: +1
862 2011-03-15 04:20:44 <justmoon> da2ce7: txtbear.com
863 2011-03-15 04:21:41 <justmoon> (disclaimer: it's actually not that good, but I made it, so yeah, it's the one i'll recommend when somebody asks :P)
864 2011-03-15 04:21:47 <validus> i dont think there is any reasoning but i gotta fix this mysqltcl error
865 2011-03-15 04:21:54 <validus> so bbiab. the joy the joy
866 2011-03-15 04:22:09 <x6763> blarzong: i recommend you re-read *all* of human action, and take the time to understand it, as well as read man, economy, and state (perhaps before reading human action)...you clearly are lacking in economic understanding
867 2011-03-15 04:22:32 <da2ce7> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B1vBlIVORn8nZmVmNTJlMjEtNGNjYy00MTFlLTkyNjctNjk0MTk1MDYwOTY3&hl=en_GB
868 2011-03-15 04:22:40 <blarzong> x6763: not at all
869 2011-03-15 04:22:56 <blarzong> x6763: ive correctly explained the basic tenets of supply and demand to you. you dont have to understand
870 2011-03-15 04:23:14 <blarzong> im not really here to convince you of basic facts. for that you can spend some time in a library or take a course in econ 101
871 2011-03-15 04:23:18 <blarzong> i can tutor you for a fee
872 2011-03-15 04:24:12 <justmoon> blarzong: dude supply and demand doesn't support what you're saying, the price moves *with* the trade, it's not like you can buy low and sell high, your own trades will move the market up and down
873 2011-03-15 04:24:15 <blarzong> x6763: also you should know that "human action" isnt mainstream economics. so claiming mises==economics is hilariously naive
874 2011-03-15 04:24:30 <da2ce7> and if you have a open mind, read Atlas Shugged... but rerember that book is a 'so-close yet so far' book.
875 2011-03-15 04:24:57 <blarzong> rand lol
876 2011-03-15 04:24:58 <x6763> you've poorly explained some high-level/emergent effects of supply and demand, but have failed to display any knowledge of the underlying actions that give arise to the high-level effects
877 2011-03-15 04:25:15 <blarzong> x6763: you are a fountain of nonsense. but thanks anyway for making me laugh
878 2011-03-15 04:25:17 <da2ce7> blarzong do you want what popular 'economics' or economics that works.
879 2011-03-15 04:25:38 <x6763> blarzong: i'm quite aware that mises is not mainstream economics...what is naive is to assume that because something is mainstream it must be correct
880 2011-03-15 04:25:42 <blarzong> da2ce7: nope, my argument was that he doesn't have a basic grasp of what economics is and what mises is
881 2011-03-15 04:26:14 <blarzong> x6763: you claimed that mises was necessary to understand economics as a disciplin. which is hilari
882 2011-03-15 04:26:28 <da2ce7> lol, well I have a resonable well established view of economics, I can say what my younger brother gets teached at uni is pure crap most of the time.
883 2011-03-15 04:26:32 <blarzong> x6763: you are seriously misinformed.l i doubt youve ever read a basic book on economics
884 2011-03-15 04:26:53 <blarzong> besides some freemarket fairy tales
885 2011-03-15 04:27:08 <da2ce7> my brother studies 'economics' at uni.
886 2011-03-15 04:27:33 <justmoon> blarzong: "fairy tales" - your very language betrays that you're not considering the other side beyond what other people told you to think about it
887 2011-03-15 04:27:36 <blarzong> x6763: learn what supply and demand is, the time value theory of money, how financial instruments work.. come back to the discussion when you have basic vocabulary and concepts down. "mises" is more philospohy than economics
888 2011-03-15 04:27:37 ovatork has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
889 2011-03-15 04:27:56 <blarzong> justmoon: "free market fairy tales" is my own asessment
890 2011-03-15 04:28:06 <justmoon> fairy tales is a term somebody would only ever use to discourage somebody from investigating a subject
891 2011-03-15 04:28:10 <validus> why such hostility on any point brought up from someone?
892 2011-03-15 04:28:24 <blarzong> justmoon: why would i encourage someone to investigate patent nonsense?
893 2011-03-15 04:28:26 <Blitzboom> justmoon: whatâs the update on the video? :P
894 2011-03-15 04:28:27 <validus> sounds defensive
895 2011-03-15 04:28:44 <da2ce7> blarzong, 1st mistake, to seperate philsophy and economics... they are itmately intertwined.
896 2011-03-15 04:28:49 <xg0d> to understand about patents so they can make the decison for themselves?
897 2011-03-15 04:28:51 <justmoon> blarzong: it isn't nonsense, just like your side isn't nonsense
898 2011-03-15 04:29:01 <justmoon> the truth is more complicated than talking points
899 2011-03-15 04:29:01 <blarzong> this is not an itneresting discussion. you are regurgitating nonsense that no one takes seriously.. im not interested
900 2011-03-15 04:29:10 <blarzong> ///last x6
901 2011-03-15 04:29:15 <blarzong> read that to see
902 2011-03-15 04:29:18 <Kiba> blarzong: you make uninteresting arguments
903 2011-03-15 04:29:31 <justmoon> Blitzboom: I was gonna write a status report, instead I debated economics for several hours
904 2011-03-15 04:29:31 <Kiba> rather you make no arguments at all, instead resorting to attacks and assertions
905 2011-03-15 04:29:40 <blarzong> ive made many argument and no attacks
906 2011-03-15 04:29:44 <Blitzboom> heh
907 2011-03-15 04:29:48 <Kiba> bullshit
908 2011-03-15 04:29:53 <blarzong> Kiba: not bullshit
909 2011-03-15 04:29:58 <justmoon> Blitzboom: I shall venture to the forums and write one now
910 2011-03-15 04:30:03 <Blitzboom> short: everything according to plan?
911 2011-03-15 04:30:05 <blarzong> kiba: you are primarily a troll. ignored.
912 2011-03-15 04:30:09 <Blitzboom> alright ;)
913 2011-03-15 04:30:11 <Kiba> what the fuck?
914 2011-03-15 04:30:14 bt2100 has joined
915 2011-03-15 04:30:19 <x6763> lol, kiba's certainly no troll
916 2011-03-15 04:30:22 <blarzong> haha look at these freemarket trolls regurgitating voodoo economics from the 1980s.. its the most hilarious thing ive ever seen
917 2011-03-15 04:30:36 <nanotube> justmoon: the guy's been acting trollish for the past few days... you'll save yourself some time to walk away from the discussion. :)
918 2011-03-15 04:30:42 <Kiba> dude, calling them trolls and making fun of their argument is actually no argument
919 2011-03-15 04:30:47 <dirtyfilthy> 1) buy mdma from silkroad 2) distribute to channel 3) ???? 4) PROFIT!
920 2011-03-15 04:31:06 <blarzong> ive explained the basic principles of economics to anyone who cared to learn. if you dont want to learn, you dont have to.
921 2011-03-15 04:31:13 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
922 2011-03-15 04:31:15 <Kiba> real men don't make fun of their opponent, instead, cooly refuting their reasoning
923 2011-03-15 04:31:16 * da2ce7 beleves that blarzong is a troll.
924 2011-03-15 04:31:20 <blarzong> im not interested in repeating what the rest of the world knows
925 2011-03-15 04:31:27 <validus> its alright kiba: as stated before he is just trying to get fee's for tutoring to teach it
926 2011-03-15 04:31:30 <blarzong> i havent made fun of anyone
927 2011-03-15 04:31:53 <blarzong> insults were lobbed at me by ppl whove obviously never cracked open a book on ecomonics in their lives heh
928 2011-03-15 04:31:56 <validus> it seems kind of childish the way blatant attacks have been thrown at people by you
929 2011-03-15 04:31:59 <davex__> just like how you explained how bitcoin is broken because the block chain is too short?
930 2011-03-15 04:32:16 <validus> so he just admitted that the expert on economics was all sarcasm and a troll
931 2011-03-15 04:32:21 <justmoon> nanotube: next time tell me beforehand - daym :)
932 2011-03-15 04:32:25 <blarzong> heh what
933 2011-03-15 04:32:32 <validus> +comment from earlier
934 2011-03-15 04:32:50 <Kiba> real men of reasoning don't call their opponent trolls or "free market fanatasy"
935 2011-03-15 04:32:54 <Kiba> that's just a fucking insult
936 2011-03-15 04:33:08 <bt2100> slush: thank you for helping me setup my miner client earlier!
937 2011-03-15 04:33:16 <blarzong> kiba: im sorry if you are insulted by a realistic and accurate assessment of theories that arent taken seriously by anyone
938 2011-03-15 04:33:23 <blarzong> kiba: maybe the truth hurts? that wasnt my intention
939 2011-03-15 04:33:28 <validus> (11:13:12) (blarzong) anyway i think justmoon , validus, da2ce7 are smart guys with an expert grasp of economics...
940 2011-03-15 04:33:35 <validus> how is that not an insult? when you just admitted to it
941 2011-03-15 04:33:46 <blarzong> a compliment is now an insult?
942 2011-03-15 04:33:56 <da2ce7> next time that we get somebody that wants to debate one of the common one: 'speculation is bad', 'deflation is bad', etc. just redirect them to the relavant forum thread.
943 2011-03-15 04:33:58 <validus> you've only attacked people as a result
944 2011-03-15 04:34:11 <validus> (11:31:43) (blarzong) insults were lobbed at me by ppl whove obviously never cracked open a book on ecomonics in their lives heh
945 2011-03-15 04:34:12 <blarzong> validus: i attacked no one
946 2011-03-15 04:34:13 <genjix> > 2k posts
947 2011-03-15 04:34:14 <justmoon> validus: it was more to say that we're experts, but he's a *real* expert
948 2011-03-15 04:34:16 <Kiba> blarzong: what a strawman
949 2011-03-15 04:34:21 <genjix> > on irc saturday/friday night
950 2011-03-15 04:34:22 <validus> every one of us has made a comment
951 2011-03-15 04:34:26 <genjix> > is a real man
952 2011-03-15 04:34:30 <genjix> lol ok
953 2011-03-15 04:34:31 <blarzong> heh
954 2011-03-15 04:34:43 <bt2100> i'm just here to talk about bitcoin =\
955 2011-03-15 04:34:43 <blarzong> im seeing a long stream of incorrect and nonsensical statements
956 2011-03-15 04:34:46 <validus> go take a prozac
957 2011-03-15 04:34:47 <blarzong> i dont have time to correct them all
958 2011-03-15 04:34:48 <Kiba> blarzong: you called me a troll
959 2011-03-15 04:34:54 <blarzong> kiba: which is true
960 2011-03-15 04:34:55 DoomDumass has joined
961 2011-03-15 04:34:59 <validus> i thought i was on ignore anyways
962 2011-03-15 04:35:04 * Kiba thought too
963 2011-03-15 04:35:08 <davex__> blarzong, so keynes is real economics, or what?
964 2011-03-15 04:35:08 <justmoon> blarzong: yeah, I've debated in enemy territory, I know how you feel :)
965 2011-03-15 04:35:08 <validus> i may have not of been here that long but kiba is no troll
966 2011-03-15 04:35:09 <blarzong> validus: i unignored you, but i might put you back on
967 2011-03-15 04:35:13 <blarzong> davex__: no
968 2011-03-15 04:35:15 <validus> i wish you would
969 2011-03-15 04:35:17 <validus> lol
970 2011-03-15 04:35:17 <Kiba> for the record, I never called blarzong a troll
971 2011-03-15 04:35:26 <validus> i did for the record
972 2011-03-15 04:35:43 <validus> he tried to sell a tutoring service in the middle of it
973 2011-03-15 04:35:47 <blarzong> kiba: im not interested in what you said really. but you did say something aong the lines of "you are not manly because your argument is an insult"
974 2011-03-15 04:35:52 <blarzong> i never insulted anyone at all
975 2011-03-15 04:36:07 <Kiba> you called me a troll
976 2011-03-15 04:36:08 <Kiba> that's an insult
977 2011-03-15 04:36:24 ybit is now known as yottabit
978 2011-03-15 04:36:26 <justmoon> ok who here thinks this discussion is still productive?
979 2011-03-15 04:36:28 <blarzong> you are personally offended that "free market economics" is considered a hoax like astrology or phrenology by most people inthe field? im really sorry for you, but i cant lie to make you hapy can i?
980 2011-03-15 04:36:35 <Kiba> you also called free markeeter's arguments a bunch of fanatasy
981 2011-03-15 04:36:37 yottabit is now known as ybit
982 2011-03-15 04:36:39 <blarzong> Kiba: but you are a troll. i wont lie to make you happy
983 2011-03-15 04:36:42 <x6763> justmoon: i'm not sure it was ever productive
984 2011-03-15 04:36:45 <blarzong> kiba: it is. so what?
985 2011-03-15 04:36:53 <Kiba> blarzong: back it up.
986 2011-03-15 04:36:53 <blarzong> kiba: you are complaining that im teling the truth.
987 2011-03-15 04:36:57 <blarzong> kiba: i did
988 2011-03-15 04:37:02 <Kiba> no, I am complaining that you have no substance
989 2011-03-15 04:37:09 <Kiba> you didn't.
990 2011-03-15 04:37:13 DoomDumas has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
991 2011-03-15 04:37:19 <blarzong> kiba: i did. i wont repeat what ive already repeated
992 2011-03-15 04:37:34 <blarzong> kiba: you can scroll back or enroll in an economics course at your local college
993 2011-03-15 04:37:40 <davex__> blarzong, so you don't like keynes... chicago school?
994 2011-03-15 04:37:43 <x6763> blarzong: you made an assertion that kiba is a troll, but you have not shown that his actions in this room fit the definition of a troll
995 2011-03-15 04:37:47 <blarzong> davex__: neither
996 2011-03-15 04:37:48 <Kiba> I studied macroeconomic, which is a bunch of horshshit
997 2011-03-15 04:37:59 <davex__> blarzong, Marxian?
998 2011-03-15 04:38:01 <validus> im still waiting to see how he was a troll to
999 2011-03-15 04:38:06 <Kiba> but then I have to substantiate my arguments as well
1000 2011-03-15 04:38:09 <justmoon> davex__: love how you assume everybody's opinion has to fit with a "school"
1001 2011-03-15 04:38:11 <validus> he has some marxist interests in there
1002 2011-03-15 04:38:16 <validus> but its mixed with some others
1003 2011-03-15 04:38:17 <blarzong> x6763: i did. you dont have to be convinced. you've demonstrated an inability to make accurate statements, so your input is basically fruitless
1004 2011-03-15 04:38:47 <davex__> justmoon, as mises pointed out, it's a rare person that has original thought
1005 2011-03-15 04:38:56 * da2ce7 is a laissez-faire capitalist
1006 2011-03-15 04:39:12 <justmoon> davex__: that doesn't mean you can't pick the best from everybody and make up your own mind
1007 2011-03-15 04:39:21 <Kiba> it takes a lot of energy for me to consider arguments on their merit
1008 2011-03-15 04:39:25 <Kiba> I have to think really hard
1009 2011-03-15 04:39:37 <blarzong> kiba and x6763 are both trolls
1010 2011-03-15 04:39:37 <Kiba> I mean, like really sit down and sniff
1011 2011-03-15 04:39:38 <davex__> justmoon, agreed. but then should give credit where it's due
1012 2011-03-15 04:39:48 <blarzong> im sorry if the truth offends :)
1013 2011-03-15 04:40:06 <x6763> blarzong: if you can't back up your statements, there's no real point in you being here, as you will not have any credibility...please show us how kiba is a troll or admit that he is not...maybe you can start with showing us that you know what a troll is by sharing the definition with us?
1014 2011-03-15 04:40:11 <validus> so now if your not an elitest you cant argue
1015 2011-03-15 04:40:12 <validus> lol
1016 2011-03-15 04:40:15 <davex__> i don't even know what he's arguing for
1017 2011-03-15 04:40:20 <justmoon> davex__: "the key to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources" - Albery Einstein
1018 2011-03-15 04:40:24 <justmoon> albert*
1019 2011-03-15 04:40:31 <blarzong> x6763: credibility with a troll who doesn't have a basic grasp of the topic at hand? lmao. your input is worthless on this topic
1020 2011-03-15 04:40:42 <Kiba> bitcoin is a original thought!
1021 2011-03-15 04:40:43 <Kiba> kinda
1022 2011-03-15 04:40:50 <Kiba> Satoshi reinvent Wei Dai's idea
1023 2011-03-15 04:40:51 <davex__> yeah
1024 2011-03-15 04:41:04 <davex__> with lots of misesian influence
1025 2011-03-15 04:41:16 <justmoon> Kiba: any invention or idea, if you're familiar enough with it, has predecessors
1026 2011-03-15 04:41:18 <Kiba> nobodys know what Satoshi really thought
1027 2011-03-15 04:41:30 <Kiba> nobody knows*
1028 2011-03-15 04:41:31 <x6763> blarzong: i think the number of people here that find you to be credible at all is very small...so why come here to talk with a bunch of people that don't like you or don't value your opinions?
1029 2011-03-15 04:41:35 <blarzong> x6763: who would ever bother trying to convince you? you've admitted you dont know what economics is (you imagined mises is economics, rather than an outlier branch of philosophy)
1030 2011-03-15 04:41:56 <Kiba> proper argumentation and reasoning a fucking bitch
1031 2011-03-15 04:42:08 <validus> he already said he wont take anyones comments that are not an "expert" so unless your a proved elitest theres no real point
1032 2011-03-15 04:42:12 <blarzong> x6763: i dont think it matters to anyone if a bunch of trolls dont want to agree with reality
1033 2011-03-15 04:42:18 <validus> im just going to add to ignore cuz its gotten sad now and just isnt funny
1034 2011-03-15 04:42:19 <Kiba> is that so?
1035 2011-03-15 04:42:25 <Kiba> well, I ignored his ass anyway
1036 2011-03-15 04:42:29 <x6763> blarzong: so you just like chatting with the "trolls"?
1037 2011-03-15 04:42:31 <dirtyfilthy> this channel is reminding me of why i dropped out in my third year of a philosophy degree at university
1038 2011-03-15 04:42:41 <nanotube> dirtyfilthy: lol
1039 2011-03-15 04:42:43 <validus> dirtyfilthy: dont let one retard ruin your irc
1040 2011-03-15 04:42:44 <davex__> blarzong, so why are you interested in bitcoin if you're anti free market
1041 2011-03-15 04:42:44 <validus> lol
1042 2011-03-15 04:42:45 <blarzong> x6763: does the opinoin of 5 trolls somehow amount to anything? lol. does the opinion of 5 ppl who areunfamiliar w/economics matter to anyone? lol
1043 2011-03-15 04:42:57 <x6763> blarzong: why are you here?
1044 2011-03-15 04:42:57 <justmoon> dirtyfilthy: what the fuck were you thinking picking philosophy in the first place :D
1045 2011-03-15 04:43:02 <blarzong> i have a pedagogical instint.. i like to teach ppl
1046 2011-03-15 04:43:12 <Kiba> justmoon: I find philosophy class interesting
1047 2011-03-15 04:43:13 <blarzong> davex__: im not any of th ethings youve claimed.. sorry
1048 2011-03-15 04:43:20 <Kiba> I get to poke holes in Aristole and Plato's theories
1049 2011-03-15 04:43:20 <blarzong> x6763: why are you here?
1050 2011-03-15 04:43:25 <validus> if i had him as a teacher id make the news for shooting them
1051 2011-03-15 04:43:26 <validus> lol
1052 2011-03-15 04:43:28 <blarzong> x6763: youre clearly a troll
1053 2011-03-15 04:43:36 <justmoon> Kiba: philosophy is for nerds who can't grasp basic programming
1054 2011-03-15 04:43:37 <dirtyfilthy> justmoon: i was really interested in ethics and aethsetics
1055 2011-03-15 04:43:45 <validus> so much name calling lol
1056 2011-03-15 04:43:47 <validus> are they drunk?
1057 2011-03-15 04:43:48 * da2ce7 thinks eveyone needs to go to there girlfriend (or boyfriend), get a root, and come back calmer.
1058 2011-03-15 04:44:00 <blarzong> x6763: "read mises" is not a valid form of argument when talking about basic laws of supply and demand.
1059 2011-03-15 04:44:14 <blarzong> that would be like "listen to the beatles" if you want to understand sound waves duuude
1060 2011-03-15 04:44:14 <davex__> blarzong, so... not interested in bitcoin then, just hanging out here to annoy people?
1061 2011-03-15 04:44:18 <Kiba> minutes you spend making bad arguments, you could be making bitcoin
1062 2011-03-15 04:44:22 <validus> ya no more of him
1063 2011-03-15 04:44:25 <x6763> blarzong: it was merely a recommendation, not an attempt at explaining anything
1064 2011-03-15 04:44:31 <validus> <3 ignore
1065 2011-03-15 04:44:37 <blarzong> davex__: youve asked me 10 questions, all of which ive said no. stop asking me questions.
1066 2011-03-15 04:44:40 <blarzong> davex__: ignored
1067 2011-03-15 04:44:43 <davex__> haha
1068 2011-03-15 04:44:49 <Kiba> let make BITCOIN!
1069 2011-03-15 04:44:53 <bt2100> i'd be mining more bitcoins if i could make my piece of crap GPU on my video card work
1070 2011-03-15 04:44:56 <blarzong> x6763: do you have a point troll?
1071 2011-03-15 04:44:57 <blarzong> lol
1072 2011-03-15 04:45:05 <blarzong> x6763: get to a point or stfu. youre not interesting
1073 2011-03-15 04:45:09 <x6763> troll: someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community , such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion
1074 2011-03-15 04:45:09 <validus> im making coin just very slowly atm lol
1075 2011-03-15 04:45:25 <Kiba> http://gameideas.witcoin.com/p/458/Celluar-RTS
1076 2011-03-15 04:45:27 <validus> lol x6763
1077 2011-03-15 04:45:28 <Kiba> validus: mining?
1078 2011-03-15 04:45:32 <lfm> youre gpu doesnt work?
1079 2011-03-15 04:45:36 <blarzong> x6763: pasting wikipedia is also not interesting
1080 2011-03-15 04:45:37 <validus> ya just horrible gpu
1081 2011-03-15 04:45:48 <blarzong> x6763: you have 2 seconds before you go into the ignore pile
1082 2011-03-15 04:45:48 <lfm> take it back to the store
1083 2011-03-15 04:45:53 <bt2100> lfm no i just can't decide which mining client to use on my debian box with this nvidia 8800
1084 2011-03-15 04:45:58 <Kiba> I make bitcoin by posting content on witcoin.com
1085 2011-03-15 04:46:12 <x6763> blarzong: that's actually from the "internet & cyber crime terms and definitions" at pursuitmag.com
1086 2011-03-15 04:46:16 <validus> i'll check it out
1087 2011-03-15 04:46:17 <blarzong> i prefer to chat with folks who dont reject the basic tents of reality
1088 2011-03-15 04:46:28 <blarzong> x6763: i could care less what you cut and paste. im sure no one else hear cares either
1089 2011-03-15 04:46:35 <blarzong> ignored
1090 2011-03-15 04:46:35 <dirtyfilthy> i think reality is largely up for grabs
1091 2011-03-15 04:46:40 <justmoon> Kiba: when I reply, who does that money go to?
1092 2011-03-15 04:46:40 <lfm> bt2100: use a cuda miner
1093 2011-03-15 04:46:52 <bt2100> lfm: gotta link? i'd love to give it a spin.
1094 2011-03-15 04:47:19 <justmoon> dirtyfilthy: very true, whenever you think you're right, you're probably wrong about that
1095 2011-03-15 04:47:25 <lfm> just look ing the bitcoin forum for cuda miner
1096 2011-03-15 04:47:29 Bth8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1097 2011-03-15 04:47:31 <`Jaka> hey
1098 2011-03-15 04:47:35 <Kiba> justmoon: I don't know. I don't have a clear idea of where the money goes
1099 2011-03-15 04:47:35 <`Jaka> https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm
1100 2011-03-15 04:47:36 <blarzong> its funny ppl think the freemarket = unlimited power for a group of financial dictators / banks. when its the complete opposite
1101 2011-03-15 04:47:39 <`Jaka> when i run it
1102 2011-03-15 04:47:43 <Kiba> witcoin.com needs more transparency
1103 2011-03-15 04:47:53 <blarzong> the propaganda has been instilled in them from an early age and they cant fathom a worl where they are not slaves to a group of bankers
1104 2011-03-15 04:47:55 <`Jaka> https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm <- when i run this, why do i keep on sending duplicates?
1105 2011-03-15 04:48:19 <justmoon> Kiba: found it: "When a post/reply is posted, the 0.01 fee is split between the site and the owner of the category"
1106 2011-03-15 04:48:36 <justmoon> Kiba: from help page
1107 2011-03-15 04:48:56 <Kiba> if you reply on that celluar RTS thread, I make money :)
1108 2011-03-15 04:49:18 <lfm> justmoon: category? are you playing jepordy?
1109 2011-03-15 04:49:32 <Kiba> I created the category ideas for games
1110 2011-03-15 04:49:37 <Kiba> I assume that I make money
1111 2011-03-15 04:50:32 <justmoon> lfm: witcoin.com
1112 2011-03-15 04:50:40 ovatork has joined
1113 2011-03-15 04:50:53 <`Jaka> hi
1114 2011-03-15 04:50:54 <`Jaka> anyone
1115 2011-03-15 04:51:44 <bt2100> hi `Jaka, i see you but i don't know enough to help you. =\ sorry.
1116 2011-03-15 04:51:50 <`Jaka> ok
1117 2011-03-15 04:51:52 <`Jaka> np
1118 2011-03-15 04:51:59 frokwila is now known as blarzongo
1119 2011-03-15 04:52:14 <blarzongo> so it looks like the freemarket trolls have admitted defeat
1120 2011-03-15 04:52:19 blarzong has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1121 2011-03-15 04:52:32 <blarzongo> you might as well try to convince me that astrology is real
1122 2011-03-15 04:52:47 * Kiba doesn't mind
1123 2011-03-15 04:52:55 <Kiba> so the tyrant of bad arguments have left!
1124 2011-03-15 04:53:12 <blarzongo> saying argument is bad doesn't constitute an actual argument
1125 2011-03-15 04:53:13 <blarzongo> fail
1126 2011-03-15 04:53:13 <bt2100> wow gpu vs cpu bitcoin generation performance is staggering
1127 2011-03-15 04:53:17 <validus> arg hate when people change nicks and i only ignored nicknames
1128 2011-03-15 04:53:39 <justmoon> bt2100: yep, gpu's are made for that sort of thing :)
1129 2011-03-15 04:53:51 <blarzongo> validus: you got butthurt when i exposed through basic exposition of reality why freemarket fundamentalism is crackpot nonsense. this angered you. i didnt mean to upset you
1130 2011-03-15 04:54:04 * Kiba desires profit!
1131 2011-03-15 04:54:06 <bt2100> justmoon: ya i was just surprised that even my low end Nvidia card is stomping my cpu
1132 2011-03-15 04:54:34 <luke-jr> bt2100: and a low end ati card will stomp your nvidia :P
1133 2011-03-15 04:54:34 <justmoon> bt2100: you're lucky, my low end ati card doesn't support opencl :>
1134 2011-03-15 04:54:44 <luke-jr> justmoon: that's below low end :P
1135 2011-03-15 04:54:48 <blarzongo> <Kiba> the amount of chatting and nonsense produced in this channel is becoming unbearable <-- kiba, you are the main purveyor of nonsense. sorry to say
1136 2011-03-15 04:55:28 <justmoon> luke-jr: it's a Radeon 4890, I didn't realize it was *that* bad... :(
1137 2011-03-15 04:55:52 <luke-jr> justmoon: 4890 should work
1138 2011-03-15 04:56:12 <luke-jr> outperform most nvidia too
1139 2011-03-15 04:56:13 <blarzongo> <Kiba> ... "free market fanatasy" that's just a fucking insult
1140 2011-03-15 04:56:16 <justmoon> luke-jr: oh, nevermind then :)
1141 2011-03-15 04:56:23 <luke-jr> 4890 is like 102 MH/s
1142 2011-03-15 04:56:28 <luke-jr> nvidia's best is 119 MH/s
1143 2011-03-15 04:56:34 <lfm> justmoon: it should work
1144 2011-03-15 04:56:37 <blarzongo> heh so if i said astrology was crackpot or homeopathy or rain dances thats an insult?
1145 2011-03-15 04:56:49 <blarzongo> it is not an insult to state an obvious fact is it
1146 2011-03-15 04:57:17 <justmoon> so weird I could have sworn last time it showed no opencl support in GPU Caps Viewer, now it does
1147 2011-03-15 04:57:24 <bt2100> luke-jr: my nvidia card is a sad piece of work, man. came with the computer, so i can't complain. it works...
1148 2011-03-15 04:58:49 <blarzongo> this was the hilarious part of the troll tho: <blarzong> in bitcoin who has the supply... insiders at this point <x6763> more goods on the market is a good thing
1149 2011-03-15 04:59:00 <blarzongo> hhaha. so printing more money is a good thing!
1150 2011-03-15 04:59:08 <blarzongo> because it means therees more supply of money! yppiee!!
1151 2011-03-15 04:59:36 <blarzongo> this is why i urged you to look up a few basic concepts on wikipedia so you can avoid saying utter nonsense
1152 2011-03-15 04:59:50 <blarzongo> x6's reply was to "read mises" hahahahaa
1153 2011-03-15 05:00:03 <blarzongo> how hilarious can it get
1154 2011-03-15 05:00:31 <blarzongo> i think mises is great.. but its not a substitute for understanding the supply curve
1155 2011-03-15 05:00:38 <blarzongo> i mean basic high school type concepts
1156 2011-03-15 05:01:23 <lfm> whats mises?
1157 2011-03-15 05:01:54 <blarzongo> a cool economist
1158 2011-03-15 05:01:57 <x6763> the economist Ludwig von Mises
1159 2011-03-15 05:02:38 <blarzongo> his arguments are of the non-rigorous spiritual/philospohical type
1160 2011-03-15 05:03:02 <blarzongo> which is great, and i agree w/a lot of his stuff, but clearly he has no rigorous models and doesnt take into account obvious abuses of capitalism
1161 2011-03-15 05:04:13 <blarzongo> mises believes that monopolies cant happen... its basically an inconsistent / idealist view of reality
1162 2011-03-15 05:05:11 <blarzongo> the moment you allow property rights of the feudal type, then you have monopolies (person X controls all the agricultural land, now he sets the price for food or you starve)
1163 2011-03-15 05:06:46 <blarzongo> "It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history...." -- Mises
1164 2011-03-15 05:06:56 <blarzongo> a guy who thought "fascism" has merit haha
1165 2011-03-15 05:07:01 <mmagic> 2011/03/10:18:17:05(PST:-0800)* farzong is now known as blarzong <-- you guys did see this right?
1166 2011-03-15 05:07:05 <mmagic> stop feeding the troll
1167 2011-03-15 05:07:12 <lfm> Im not sure Feudalism and Fascism have anything to do with bitcoin
1168 2011-03-15 05:07:23 <justmoon> I agree
1169 2011-03-15 05:07:25 <mmagic> i'm not sure what any of this crap has at all to do with bitcoin
1170 2011-03-15 05:07:31 <justmoon> blarzongo: please move this to #mises
1171 2011-03-15 05:07:33 <blarzongo> mmagic: you are obsessed w/me. its creepy
1172 2011-03-15 05:07:45 <blarzongo> justmoon: i didnt bring up mises. his acolyte did
1173 2011-03-15 05:08:15 <mmagic> yea, so obsessed that i don't want to come back from a day at work and wade through 300 screenfuls of your barely-relevant economic douchebaggery. why did you change your nick?
1174 2011-03-15 05:08:26 <x6763> mmagic: yeah, i noticed that before
1175 2011-03-15 05:08:28 <x6763> he's still talking?
1176 2011-03-15 05:08:37 <justmoon> [421 (ErrorUnknownCommand) ignore] Unknown command <- does the client have to support that or am I doing it wrong?
1177 2011-03-15 05:08:45 <x6763> i ignored his current and previous nicks
1178 2011-03-15 05:08:47 <validus> i think half the room added to ignore lol
1179 2011-03-15 05:08:50 <mmagic> yea, it's brutal. it's a sustained troll effort and people keep biting it because nobody saw the nick changes. apparently.
1180 2011-03-15 05:09:11 <blarzongo> mmagic: why are you even talking to me if you are so uninterested in my conversations?
1181 2011-03-15 05:09:15 <lfm> justmoon you prolly spelt it rong
1182 2011-03-15 05:09:17 <blarzongo> mmagic: you are trolling yourself
1183 2011-03-15 05:09:22 <davex__> have there been any attempts to implement the merkle tree pruning stuff yet?
1184 2011-03-15 05:09:29 <mmagic> blarzongo: why, to point out what you are, of course. fewer people will bother with you.
1185 2011-03-15 05:09:42 <mmagic> davex__: not that i'm aware.
1186 2011-03-15 05:09:52 <blarzongo> mmagic: why would ppl listen to you, an obvious troll who's obsessed with me?
1187 2011-03-15 05:09:56 <Kiba> davex__: 52 forks and you would think that bitcoin development is full speed ahead
1188 2011-03-15 05:09:59 <lfm> davex__: nope
1189 2011-03-15 05:10:00 <blarzongo> and what does "bother with me" mean anyway
1190 2011-03-15 05:10:09 <blarzongo> im perfectly content
1191 2011-03-15 05:10:15 <blarzongo> you are not
1192 2011-03-15 05:10:32 blarzongo is now known as cornharp
1193 2011-03-15 05:10:38 <justmoon> lol I don't think my client has an ignore feature
1194 2011-03-15 05:10:41 Spenvo has joined
1195 2011-03-15 05:10:43 <cornharp> mmagic: you may now freak out that my nick is changed
1196 2011-03-15 05:10:46 * justmoon screams NOOOOoooooooo.....
1197 2011-03-15 05:10:48 <x6763> justmoon: lol, that sucks
1198 2011-03-15 05:11:02 <cornharp> im just pointing out that some douchebag here who thinks mises is the foundation of economics is hilarious.. the same mises who supported fascism
1199 2011-03-15 05:11:07 <validus> you know whats great about ignore is you can put in ips
1200 2011-03-15 05:11:09 <lfm> isnt ignore a irc server functions
1201 2011-03-15 05:11:27 <cornharp> x6763 is worshipping the ideaology of a fascist. and he calls it freedom! im sorry but i have to crush trolls when i see them
1202 2011-03-15 05:11:39 <mmagic> what's so amusing is how blatant it was. he changes nicks right on the channel, deliberately, and starts in on a new topic. I would consider that worthy of the original, godlike troll deities from Kuro5hin if you weren't so obvious.
1203 2011-03-15 05:11:41 <justmoon> lfm: it's not apparently
1204 2011-03-15 05:11:58 <lfm> you cant crush a troll
1205 2011-03-15 05:12:03 <cornharp> "It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization." mises
1206 2011-03-15 05:12:20 <cornharp> mmagic: i changed nicks to watch you freak out.. proving my point. you are obsessed with my every move
1207 2011-03-15 05:12:45 <lfm> see
1208 2011-03-15 05:12:54 <validus> ignoring you can, then they can not be seen
1209 2011-03-15 05:12:55 <dirtyfilthy> cornharp: dude 75% of people here are libertarians, get over it man & chill the fuck out
1210 2011-03-15 05:13:08 <validus> Added *!*frokwila@*.* <-- all u need
1211 2011-03-15 05:13:19 <x6763> cornharp: worshipping is a hardly accurate...i don't agree with everything mises said, and it appears you're reading more into that quote that what's really there
1212 2011-03-15 05:13:24 <validus> if he goes through the trouble of changing idents just to troll thats just terms for banning
1213 2011-03-15 05:13:24 <cornharp> dirtyfilthy: libertarianism is great. as long as it doesn't veer into fascism like x6763 worshipping mises lol or freemarket reaganist nonsense
1214 2011-03-15 05:13:26 <mmagic> and i'm certain he has at least one sock puppet to stir counterpoint.
1215 2011-03-15 05:13:38 <luke-jr> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2125.0;all <-- this guy is an idiot
1216 2011-03-15 05:13:44 <cornharp> x6763: the quote is a defense of fascism. theres nothing more to read
1217 2011-03-15 05:14:12 <luke-jr> cornharp: hi. why are you here?
1218 2011-03-15 05:14:43 <justmoon> luke-jr: I think he's just having some good geeky fun
1219 2011-03-15 05:14:46 <phantomcircuit> i enjoy cookies
1220 2011-03-15 05:14:49 <cornharp> x6763: let me just suggest acquiring basic economic principles rather than accepting some dogmatic fascist nonsense
1221 2011-03-15 05:14:58 <cornharp> luke-jr: i like bitcoin. why are you here?
1222 2011-03-15 05:15:00 <x6763> cornharp: i'm an anarchist.
1223 2011-03-15 05:15:02 <dirtyfilthy> cornharp: it was more the chilling the fuck out & getting the fuck over it part
1224 2011-03-15 05:15:07 <luke-jr> cornharp: I like tonal. Why do you like bitcoin?
1225 2011-03-15 05:15:10 <Kiba> I should go to sleep
1226 2011-03-15 05:15:39 <cornharp> dirtyfilthy: tell it to your mom. i have nothing i need to get over. but im sure she has regrets about not getting that abortion
1227 2011-03-15 05:15:49 <cornharp> hehloool
1228 2011-03-15 05:16:01 <dirtyfilthy> cornharp: your mum was so bad i had to ask for my money back ;_;
1229 2011-03-15 05:16:21 <x6763> ah, geez, it figures that cornharp is blarzongo
1230 2011-03-15 05:16:37 <cornharp> x6763: yeah wow everyone else figured that out like 20 screens ago
1231 2011-03-15 05:17:00 <x6763> ignoring by ip now
1232 2011-03-15 05:17:02 <Kiba> anonymity have a tendency to turn people into a fucktard
1233 2011-03-15 05:17:03 <cornharp> "state obvious fact" "be called a jerk by ppl who support fascists like mises"
1234 2011-03-15 05:17:14 <cornharp> x6763: its ok, i ignored you first when you started spouting nonsense
1235 2011-03-15 05:17:33 <cornharp> kiba, you were complaining about "insults". who are you calling a fucktard?
1236 2011-03-15 05:17:40 <dirtyfilthy> yet you can still read what he says
1237 2011-03-15 05:17:42 <dirtyfilthy> amazing
1238 2011-03-15 05:17:48 <cornharp> i see that youre anonymous. does that mean youre a fucktard?
1239 2011-03-15 05:18:03 <Kiba> I don't know what cornharp/blarzongo is aying
1240 2011-03-15 05:18:05 <mmagic> x6763: that's partly why i don't ignore.. but dude's clearly bored.
1241 2011-03-15 05:18:08 <cornharp> dirtyfilthy: scrollback to where i unignored him. try to keep up
1242 2011-03-15 05:18:10 <dirtyfilthy> fuck yeah, that ignore felt pretty good
1243 2011-03-15 05:18:27 <Kiba> but likely he giving us bullcrap arguments
1244 2011-03-15 05:18:28 <cornharp> lol. hes so butthurt that he had to ignore to restore his sanity
1245 2011-03-15 05:18:29 <cornharp> ,mao
1246 2011-03-15 05:18:30 <x6763> mmagic: yeah, this is the first i've ever ignored anyone on any chat service that wasn't just spam
1247 2011-03-15 05:18:47 <cornharp> kiba: who are you calling a "fucktard"
1248 2011-03-15 05:18:57 <cornharp> kiba: you spew insults after saying things like: "Kibayou guys need to stop making insult and make real arguments like real men of reasons"
1249 2011-03-15 05:19:05 <justmoon> x6763: this is the first time I tried to ignore somebody and found out my client doesn't have that feature
1250 2011-03-15 05:19:05 <cornharp> kiba: that is why youre a troll. and projecting as well
1251 2011-03-15 05:19:18 <Kiba> justmoon: use erc in emacs!
1252 2011-03-15 05:19:24 <x6763> justmoon: sounds like it's time for a new client, lol
1253 2011-03-15 05:19:26 <dirtyfilthy> justmoon: what client?
1254 2011-03-15 05:19:33 <mmagic> x6763: they used to be really, really good. like, days or weeks would go by and everyone would just think they're unusually argumentative. the really freaky good ones get regulars fighting amongst themselves, then shut up and sit back and watch the fireworks. this guy's too amateur for that kind of subtlety. oh well.
1255 2011-03-15 05:19:33 <phantomcircuit> so it strikes me that the only way mobile devices are going to be able to use bitcoin is with a trusted peer
1256 2011-03-15 05:19:37 <cornharp> x6763 had to ignore me when i brought up the inconvenient history of his hero ludwig von mises.. turns out mises was a prominent fascist
1257 2011-03-15 05:19:37 <phantomcircuit> how do we deal with that?
1258 2011-03-15 05:19:55 <cornharp> mmagic: keep reinforcing that youre obsessed w/me
1259 2011-03-15 05:20:00 <x6763> mmagic: lol
1260 2011-03-15 05:20:06 <cornharp> mmagic: you really cant win by following me around like a little puppy dog
1261 2011-03-15 05:20:12 <dirtyfilthy> phantomcircuit: ok, can you unpack that? why trusted peer?
1262 2011-03-15 05:20:13 <cornharp> mmagic: apparently i pwn you
1263 2011-03-15 05:20:20 justmoon-erc has joined
1264 2011-03-15 05:20:22 <cornharp> mmagic = epic chat fail
1265 2011-03-15 05:20:30 <justmoon-erc> Kiba: ok now how to I ignore somebody
1266 2011-03-15 05:20:35 <phantomcircuit> dirtyfilthy, verifying the tx chain on a mobile device is practically impossible
1267 2011-03-15 05:20:51 <Kiba> /ignore somebodyannoying
1268 2011-03-15 05:20:52 <phantomcircuit> it takes long enough on a desktop
1269 2011-03-15 05:20:54 <cornharp> kiba: i noticed you failed to respond to my last point. i guess you agree that youre a troll with projection issues?
1270 2011-03-15 05:20:55 <dirtyfilthy> it's not impossible but it is slow
1271 2011-03-15 05:21:02 <justmoon-erc> Kiba: thx
1272 2011-03-15 05:21:08 <cornharp> kiba admits defeat. x6763 ran away with his tail between his legs. mmagic is just pathetic
1273 2011-03-15 05:21:14 <cornharp> winning here is way to easy
1274 2011-03-15 05:21:17 <justmoon-erc> dirtyfilthy: client without ignore feature was Smuxi
1275 2011-03-15 05:21:27 justmoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1276 2011-03-15 05:21:30 <phantomcircuit> dirtyfilthy, at some point in the near feature it will be impossible
1277 2011-03-15 05:21:37 <lfm> /ignore cornharp all
1278 2011-03-15 05:21:43 <cornharp> by "winning" i mean stating obvious facts that no one would ever dream of denying
1279 2011-03-15 05:21:47 <phantomcircuit> oh snap i just had a flash of smarts
1280 2011-03-15 05:21:56 <mmagic> i've seen better trolls than you on 4chan..
1281 2011-03-15 05:22:13 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
1282 2011-03-15 05:22:15 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113581 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1330 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 5 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65073.28313207
1283 2011-03-15 05:22:15 <cornharp> mmagic: the more you comment about me, the more i pwn you. you claimed you wanted to ignore me, yet you hang on my every word
1284 2011-03-15 05:22:21 <lfm> well of course ... 4chan is pros
1285 2011-03-15 05:22:22 <LobsterMan> hah nice the diff is gonna go down
1286 2011-03-15 05:22:28 <phantomcircuit> put the balance for each address into each block, if the balances are wrong the block is rejected
1287 2011-03-15 05:22:28 * mmagic cheers!
1288 2011-03-15 05:23:28 <x6763> haha, he got kicked
1289 2011-03-15 05:23:30 <lfm> and I got a block with the diff at its highest
1290 2011-03-15 05:23:44 justmoon-erc has quit (Changing host)
1291 2011-03-15 05:23:44 justmoon-erc has joined
1292 2011-03-15 05:23:49 justmoon-erc is now known as justmoon
1293 2011-03-15 05:24:04 <Kiba> emacs rock!
1294 2011-03-15 05:24:09 <Kiba> you can do everything in emacs!
1295 2011-03-15 05:24:42 * Kiba goes to sleep
1296 2011-03-15 05:25:14 <lfm> write a miner to run in emacs lisp
1297 2011-03-15 05:26:20 <justmoon> lfm: you could build a bitcoin gui in emacs that uses json-rpc pretty easily
1298 2011-03-15 05:26:44 * x6763 is also going to sleep
1299 2011-03-15 05:27:30 <justmoon> yeah yeah, americans go to sleep, but my fellow europeans will soon come online
1300 2011-03-15 05:27:36 noagendamarket has joined
1301 2011-03-15 05:27:55 <dirtyfilthy> <-- GMT +13
1302 2011-03-15 05:28:05 <forrestv> lol..
1303 2011-03-15 05:28:07 <justmoon> GMT +1 - 6:26am
1304 2011-03-15 05:29:21 <validus> its only 12:30 am
1305 2011-03-15 05:33:19 Bosma has quit (Quit: Bosma)
1306 2011-03-15 05:33:33 xg0d has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1307 2011-03-15 05:34:12 <lfm> $ date -u
1308 2011-03-15 05:34:12 <lfm> Tue Mar 15 05:33:47 UTC 2011
1309 2011-03-15 05:36:34 hyperions has joined
1310 2011-03-15 05:36:54 BitterTea has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1311 2011-03-15 05:37:10 BitterTea has joined
1312 2011-03-15 05:37:11 BitterTea has quit (Changing host)
1313 2011-03-15 05:37:11 BitterTea has joined
1314 2011-03-15 05:39:52 topace has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1315 2011-03-15 05:40:09 topace has joined
1316 2011-03-15 05:41:05 sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1317 2011-03-15 05:41:29 CyanDynamo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1318 2011-03-15 05:43:39 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1319 2011-03-15 05:46:18 CyanDynamo has joined
1320 2011-03-15 05:46:58 <hyperions> this mmagic character is spamming me: *mmagic* lol come back when you learn subtlety. *mmagic* subtlety. *mmagic* Subtlety! can anyone get him to stfu pls. hes crazed and obsessed w/me (blarzong/corntastic)
1321 2011-03-15 05:46:58 <hyperions> by the way, when you ban someone you disagree with, you admit you can't win the argument by reason, but only by censoring them. instantly discredits your position. so more fail from ppl who think being a slave to banks equals "freedom" lmao.
1322 2011-03-15 05:46:58 <hyperions> this is classic: <x6763> blarzong: i recommend you re-read *all* of human action [...] lol, by the same mises who declared that fascism was wonderful: "Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will
1323 2011-03-15 05:46:58 <hyperions> live on eternally in history."
1324 2011-03-15 05:46:58 <hyperions> x6763: the fact that mises was a fascist should tell you something about the real purpose of capitalism: to enslave the majority of humanity for the pleasure of a few people who control capital (i.e. banks).
1325 2011-03-15 05:47:06 <hyperions> oh shit whats happening!!!!!
1326 2011-03-15 05:47:57 <genjix> how do i delete 2 commits from a merged branch?
1327 2011-03-15 05:48:04 <lfm> I have a funny feeling it doesnt have anything to do with reason
1328 2011-03-15 05:48:04 werdan7 has joined
1329 2011-03-15 05:48:59 Mango-chan has joined
1330 2011-03-15 05:49:00 Mango-chan has quit (Changing host)
1331 2011-03-15 05:49:00 Mango-chan has joined
1332 2011-03-15 05:49:29 <genjix> hyperions: we all want the same thing: a better future... many of us want a freer one, but can't agree on the best way to do it (anacap anacom) but everyone has the same end vision :)
1333 2011-03-15 05:49:48 <lfm> some of us just want sex
1334 2011-03-15 05:50:08 sshc has joined
1335 2011-03-15 05:50:22 <genjix> don't worry, you'll get plenty when you turn over 18 ^^
1336 2011-03-15 05:50:32 <lfm> hehe
1337 2011-03-15 05:50:37 <hyperions> well it started when i said that a small number of insiders controlled the price of bitcoin. (they control the supply and hence the price. basic supply and demand). ppl got angry and tried to claim bitcoin was different from any other asset, that it couldn't be manipulated and wasn't subject to supply and demand
1338 2011-03-15 05:51:12 <mmagic> nah it didn't. it started when you began trying to coder troll.
1339 2011-03-15 05:51:13 <hyperions> i thought this was unnecessary zealotry. i love bitcoin. but some of its weaknesses (such as insider manipulation) present risk to investors
1340 2011-03-15 05:51:17 <mmagic> then you went to philosophy troll.
1341 2011-03-15 05:51:19 <hyperions> huh
1342 2011-03-15 05:51:28 <genjix> >>> how do i delete 2 commits from a merged branch? <<<<
1343 2011-03-15 05:51:29 <hyperions> mmagic: you are the only troll i see
1344 2011-03-15 05:51:29 <mmagic> and now you're circumventing bans with multiple external accounts.
1345 2011-03-15 05:51:48 <genjix> mmagic: why're you banning people? wtf
1346 2011-03-15 05:51:54 <mmagic> *yawn*
1347 2011-03-15 05:51:54 <hyperions> mmagic: you are a spammer. *mmagic* lol come back when you learn subtlety. *mmagic* subtlety. *mmagic* Subtlety!
1348 2011-03-15 05:52:13 <hyperions> i told you to stop msg'ing me 10 times
1349 2011-03-15 05:52:40 <jgarzik> blocks per hour - 4.79. thanks MM.
1350 2011-03-15 05:52:42 <mmagic> i think you have that a little backwards when you started in on the comments about my mother.. lol
1351 2011-03-15 05:52:42 `Jaka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1352 2011-03-15 05:52:44 <jgarzik> ugh
1353 2011-03-15 05:52:56 <lfm> nice, more blocks for us
1354 2011-03-15 05:53:26 trentzb has joined
1355 2011-03-15 05:54:23 <mmagic> interesting.
1356 2011-03-15 05:54:28 <mmagic> genjix: what are you talking about?
1357 2011-03-15 05:54:40 <genjix> hyperions: claiming you banned him...
1358 2011-03-15 05:54:46 <Blitzboom> ;;bc,stats
1359 2011-03-15 05:54:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113584 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1327 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 8 minutes, and 1 second | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65117.68087816
1360 2011-03-15 05:54:58 <mmagic> i don't have bot access. scroll back and see gribble doing it.
1361 2011-03-15 05:55:05 <genjix> oh ok
1362 2011-03-15 05:56:03 <phantomcircuit> hyperions, the risk is from large holders
1363 2011-03-15 05:56:06 <phantomcircuit> hyperions, not from insiders
1364 2011-03-15 05:56:10 <mmagic> genjix: uh huh.
1365 2011-03-15 05:56:14 <phantomcircuit> if anybody tried shit it would be obvious
1366 2011-03-15 05:56:25 <mmagic> phantomcircuit: dude, it's farzong again..
1367 2011-03-15 05:56:28 <mmagic> lol
1368 2011-03-15 05:56:49 <hyperions> phantomcircuit: youre right, i use the term interchangeably because insiders were the onces who accumulated the majority of bitcoins
1369 2011-03-15 05:56:57 <hyperions> through early phase mining
1370 2011-03-15 05:57:11 <genjix> it's unreasonable to ban him... even if troll
1371 2011-03-15 05:57:37 <genjix> just because his ideas are 'different'... don't respond if need be :p
1372 2011-03-15 05:57:52 <lfm> hey, hyperions , we're all insiders and you arnt, thats why we dont like you
1373 2011-03-15 05:58:18 <mmagic> genjix: incorrect.
1374 2011-03-15 05:58:52 <hyperions> i never trolled anyone. i merely stated an obvious fact that any reasonable person with a passing familiariaty with the topic knows. this was considered a threat by some misguided zealots who decided to silence me with a ban
1375 2011-03-15 05:59:14 <hyperions> a realistic asessment of areas bitcoin needs improvement in can only help. i think bitcoin is fantastic and i invested in it
1376 2011-03-15 05:59:30 <hyperions> head in the sand ostriche type reactions tho dont solve problems
1377 2011-03-15 05:59:38 <genjix> hyperions: although, respectfully this is a channel about development... there's a #bitcoin-discussion for this type of talk :)
1378 2011-03-15 05:59:47 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1379 2011-03-15 05:59:55 <genjix> i'm not into politics. im just a coder geek
1380 2011-03-15 06:00:14 echelon has joined
1381 2011-03-15 06:00:14 <genjix> might be nice if this chan is left for techno talk :)
1382 2011-03-15 06:00:54 Bth8 has joined
1383 2011-03-15 06:00:57 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1384 2011-03-15 06:01:00 <genjix> and it's natural people get defensive of other ideas.
1385 2011-03-15 06:01:20 da2ce7 has quit ()
1386 2011-03-15 06:03:57 pogden has joined
1387 2011-03-15 06:05:02 <lfm> and secret cabals taking over the world are such old crap here that we dont have much patients with it
1388 2011-03-15 06:05:16 <hyperions> should people be allowed to ban anyone who disagrees with astrology, phrenology, or capitalism - three equally ridiculous theories that have never survived rigorous analysis?
1389 2011-03-15 06:05:38 <hyperions> lfm: theres no secret. everyone knows the supply of bitcoins is in a few hands
1390 2011-03-15 06:06:16 <hyperions> (by rigorous analysis, i mean havent survived the most basic application of logic)
1391 2011-03-15 06:06:32 <lfm> hhhmmm? well I guess I must be one of them cuz I just ogt a 50 btc block myslef yesterday. funny I dont feel like I am taking over the world
1392 2011-03-15 06:06:48 <hyperions> lfm: you can argue that concentrating all the bitcoins in a few peoples hands isnt a problem. but then you have to prove why supply and demand doesn't pertain to bitcoins
1393 2011-03-15 06:06:55 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1394 2011-03-15 06:07:11 <lfm> concentrating all the bitcoins in a few
1395 2011-03-15 06:07:14 <lfm> peoples hands
1396 2011-03-15 06:07:21 <lfm> would be a problem if it was real
1397 2011-03-15 06:07:37 <hyperions> lfm: 50 is not a lot. id say the top 20 bitcoin holders have at least 50% of the currency
1398 2011-03-15 06:08:02 <hyperions> thats a very conservative estimate. early mining was ton by like 4 or 5 ppl
1399 2011-03-15 06:08:08 <lfm> id say the top 4 holders have 90% but why quibble
1400 2011-03-15 06:08:17 <hyperions> yes i wouldnt be surprised at all
1401 2011-03-15 06:08:56 <lfm> so what if they do, its still not ALL the bitcoins, there is lots left over for the rest of us to play with
1402 2011-03-15 06:09:09 <hyperions> we can play, but they set the price
1403 2011-03-15 06:10:12 <lfm> hyperions: if you dont like the game why are you playing?
1404 2011-03-15 06:10:14 <hyperions> if ppl are going to invest cash and labor into acquiring bitcoin assets, the uncertainty over insider manipulation has to be extinguished
1405 2011-03-15 06:10:24 <hyperions> i think bitcoin is the best currency available
1406 2011-03-15 06:10:55 <hyperions> i would like to increase the value of my 100 btc, which is why i want this problem addressed
1407 2011-03-15 06:11:56 <genjix> hyperions: make your own blockchain with inflation :)
1408 2011-03-15 06:12:00 <lfm> you want to cause a panic to manipulate the market yourself so you can buy more btc cheap
1409 2011-03-15 06:12:05 dissipate has joined
1410 2011-03-15 06:12:06 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
1411 2011-03-15 06:12:06 dissipate has joined
1412 2011-03-15 06:12:07 <mmagic> people won't buy if they don't want it at the price set. this is precisely what's going on in mtgox right now, and the price is dropping.
1413 2011-03-15 06:12:23 <hyperions> lfm: no, id lose my investment if that happened. and im broke so i cant acquire more btc
1414 2011-03-15 06:12:44 <lfm> thats exactly what you should say if you want to buy more
1415 2011-03-15 06:13:06 <mmagic> hey, i'm broke too. anyone wanna sell me btc @ 0.30?
1416 2011-03-15 06:13:18 <mmagic> drat, no takers..
1417 2011-03-15 06:14:05 <lfm> 100btc is not an "investment"
1418 2011-03-15 06:14:19 <retinal> it's a drop in the bucket
1419 2011-03-15 06:14:23 <mmagic> if he waited for about 100 years, and bitcoin survived that long, it might be.
1420 2011-03-15 06:14:49 <hyperions> i dont think you know what the word means
1421 2011-03-15 06:14:52 <mmagic> but hey, immortality is right around the corner, and cryo freezing is almost viable
1422 2011-03-15 06:15:04 <hyperions> "Investment is putting money into something with the expectation of profit."
1423 2011-03-15 06:15:25 <lfm> yup change your will real quick, leave those 100btc to your great grand kids
1424 2011-03-15 06:15:40 <hyperions> half the world lives on less than a dollar a day
1425 2011-03-15 06:16:01 <lfm> they dont have computers
1426 2011-03-15 06:16:01 <hyperions> are you suggesting thats an insignificant amount?
1427 2011-03-15 06:16:10 <mmagic> is that why you could only afford 100..
1428 2011-03-15 06:16:20 <hyperions> mmagic: yes
1429 2011-03-15 06:16:25 <hyperions> right now i live on $0 a day
1430 2011-03-15 06:16:42 * genjix has 0.05 btc :(
1431 2011-03-15 06:16:42 <mmagic> time to move out of the basement..
1432 2011-03-15 06:16:43 <hyperions> what amount would you consider to be significant?
1433 2011-03-15 06:16:51 <mmagic> 400k?
1434 2011-03-15 06:16:59 <hyperions> OK that would be nice
1435 2011-03-15 06:17:00 <lfm> hyperions: if your so broke Id highly recomend you sell your computer to buy food
1436 2011-03-15 06:17:19 <hyperions> lfm: then i couldnt look for a job. that wouldnt be a good trade at all
1437 2011-03-15 06:17:39 <hyperions> i have enough food from what the supermarket throws away
1438 2011-03-15 06:17:42 <retinal> there's always the public library
1439 2011-03-15 06:18:00 <genjix> hyperions: are you a squatter? :)
1440 2011-03-15 06:18:21 <hyperions> retinal: need transportation to get there and seats are often unavailable
1441 2011-03-15 06:18:25 <genjix> do you know caedes or jaromil?
1442 2011-03-15 06:18:28 <hyperions> genjix: yeah pretty much
1443 2011-03-15 06:18:30 <lfm> well just sell it anyway, please, dont wai
1444 2011-03-15 06:18:34 <lfm> t
1445 2011-03-15 06:18:37 <genjix> cool... where you based?
1446 2011-03-15 06:18:53 <genjix> i do the same
1447 2011-03-15 06:19:03 <hyperions> lfm: why? first you claim im trying to conrner the bitcoin market myself, now i should sell my PC for food
1448 2011-03-15 06:19:27 <hyperions> lfm: do you have anything that isnt batshit insane to say?
1449 2011-03-15 06:19:30 <hyperions> just wondering
1450 2011-03-15 06:19:43 <Diablo-D3> whos doing what now?
1451 2011-03-15 06:19:46 <hyperions> in in mexico city
1452 2011-03-15 06:19:49 <lfm> you said you needed money, yet you sit there playing with a valuable itme you could sell
1453 2011-03-15 06:19:51 <Diablo-D3> the only one that "cornered" the market is Art
1454 2011-03-15 06:20:02 <Diablo-D3> and Art did it by vastly outproducing everyone
1455 2011-03-15 06:20:06 <retinal> hyperions: 'investing' is a risk you should only take if you can afford to lose it all
1456 2011-03-15 06:20:17 <Diablo-D3> which was expensive, time consuming, and he can now afford not just ONE prostitute, but two.
1457 2011-03-15 06:20:35 <hyperions> retinal: true, I can't afford the risk
1458 2011-03-15 06:20:47 <genjix> girls, enough.
1459 2011-03-15 06:20:51 <genjix> get a room.
1460 2011-03-15 06:21:12 <retinal> BTC is volatile and shallow market for the time being
1461 2011-03-15 06:21:38 <retinal> I'm just in it because I have a high end gfx card and free electricity
1462 2011-03-15 06:22:00 <genjix> good for you
1463 2011-03-15 06:22:04 <retinal> indeed
1464 2011-03-15 06:22:08 <genjix> now i can die in peace (knowing that)
1465 2011-03-15 06:22:51 <retinal> anyone taking this BTC stuff seriously should really reconsider their outlook on things, but that's just my opinion
1466 2011-03-15 06:23:05 <genjix> why?
1467 2011-03-15 06:23:10 <genjix> i'm taking it seriously.
1468 2011-03-15 06:23:21 <lfm> well its ok if Satoshi takes it seriously
1469 2011-03-15 06:23:22 <retinal> for BTC to have monetary value, there must be investors
1470 2011-03-15 06:23:33 <retinal> do you think people will be pouring millions into this?
1471 2011-03-15 06:23:43 <hyperions> i think so
1472 2011-03-15 06:23:44 <genjix> yes
1473 2011-03-15 06:24:01 <genjix> i'm speaking at a conference next week about bitcoin
1474 2011-03-15 06:24:21 <genjix> to business people. entry cost is â¬2k and it's pretty esteemed
1475 2011-03-15 06:24:23 <retinal> I'll let you be, then :)
1476 2011-03-15 06:24:25 <hyperions> but.. they wont pour millions into something whose supply is controlled by 3 guys
1477 2011-03-15 06:24:33 <genjix> if they're getting interested in it, then i am
1478 2011-03-15 06:24:44 <lfm> I wouldnt say millions, not for a couple years at least I think
1479 2011-03-15 06:24:50 trentzb has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1480 2011-03-15 06:25:14 <genjix> lfm: i think like 10 years is more realistic
1481 2011-03-15 06:25:49 <retinal> the dot-com bubble ended just 11 years ago
1482 2011-03-15 06:25:50 <genjix> 10 years for linux, 10 years for wikipedia, 10 years for python, ...
1483 2011-03-15 06:26:02 <lfm> ya it all depends on when the growth curve levels off of course and whoever can figure it out wins
1484 2011-03-15 06:26:40 <genjix> well obv there's much more room for growth.
1485 2011-03-15 06:27:04 <hyperions> nikeei halts trading after 10% drop
1486 2011-03-15 06:28:43 <lfm> bitcoin wont stop trading fro anything I can immagine
1487 2011-03-15 06:30:48 <hyperions> explosions and fire at fukushima. suspected damage of primary containment structure http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/
1488 2011-03-15 06:30:59 <hyperions> this is horrible.. my prayers are with them
1489 2011-03-15 06:32:35 <hyperions> anyway i need to quit irc
1490 2011-03-15 06:32:46 <retinal> good call
1491 2011-03-15 06:33:29 <hyperions> yes good call
1492 2011-03-15 06:34:14 <hyperions> obviously lfm, justmoon, x6763, lolcat, kiba, ArtForz, Diablo-D3, x6763, nanotube, xg0d, da2ce7, mmagic, validus, davex__, genjix are smart guys and are the bitcoin gurus who know much more about cryptocurrency than I do... and they are clearly well-read experts in economics and finance. i was kidding when i said x6763 wasn't informed. he clearly knows his stuff. i have a great respect
1493 2011-03-15 06:34:14 <hyperions> for their knowledge
1494 2011-03-15 06:34:41 <Diablo-D3> what.
1495 2011-03-15 06:35:06 <lfm> I thot you were leaving
1496 2011-03-15 06:35:06 <Diablo-D3> and for the record, no, most people in here have it somewhat wrong.
1497 2011-03-15 06:37:04 <mmagic> hyperions: wouldn't want the real owner of that account wondering why there's more than 30 minutes of usage on it, would we?
1498 2011-03-15 06:38:23 <hyperions> japanese prime minister announcement: "warned that radiation had already spread from the crippled reactors and there was "a very high risk" of further leakage. "
1499 2011-03-15 06:38:45 <hyperions> mmagic: huh? this is my acct
1500 2011-03-15 06:39:52 <mmagic> why do you pay for so many?
1501 2011-03-15 06:40:05 <mmagic> if you're broke and apparently homeless?
1502 2011-03-15 06:40:13 <hyperions> Kyoto University researcher: "We can assume that the containment vessel at Reactor No. 2 is already breached. If there is heavy melting inside the reactor, large amounts of radiation will most definitely be released."
1503 2011-03-15 06:40:36 <hyperions> the breach that nuclear poroponents have been telling us is impossible over the past few days is assumed to be likely
1504 2011-03-15 06:41:01 <hyperions> mmagic: i dont have money, but i have some friends who are helping me out
1505 2011-03-15 06:41:49 * hyperions waits for the pro-nuclear trolls to tell us everythings safe, nothing to see here
1506 2011-03-15 06:41:52 <mmagic> "here, use my account, go ahead and break tos all you like"
1507 2011-03-15 06:42:13 <hyperions> what tos
1508 2011-03-15 06:42:20 <hyperions> you are a spammer, dont talk to me about tos
1509 2011-03-15 06:43:30 <lfm> I thot you were leaving
1510 2011-03-15 06:53:26 <genjix> you thot wrong
1511 2011-03-15 06:53:48 * Kiba is disappointed that only 3 posts on witcoin made him money
1512 2011-03-15 06:53:51 <Kiba> the rest are money loser
1513 2011-03-15 06:57:42 hyperions has quit ()
1514 2011-03-15 07:03:32 <dazoe> i'm tired of the bitcoin client generating new addresses...
1515 2011-03-15 07:04:13 <dazoe> especially because i have like 30 addresses that haven't recived any bc
1516 2011-03-15 07:04:43 <genjix> dazoe: yeah m2
1517 2011-03-15 07:06:20 DoomDumass has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1518 2011-03-15 07:06:34 <Kiba> funny
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1550 2011-03-15 07:31:43 <mmagic> ipv6 choking again
1551 2011-03-15 07:32:24 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
1552 2011-03-15 07:33:01 skeledrew has joined
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1555 2011-03-15 07:36:35 Spenvo_ is now known as Spenvo
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1557 2011-03-15 07:38:15 <genjix> function spider4chan() { wget -P pics -H -nd -r -Dimages.4chan.org -A '.jpg,.jpeg,.png,.gif,' -erobots=off "$1"; }
1558 2011-03-15 07:38:18 <genjix> :)
1559 2011-03-15 07:38:28 <genjix> $ cd /tmp
1560 2011-03-15 07:38:35 <genjix> $ spider4chan http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/315938092
1561 2011-03-15 07:38:39 <genjix> $ cd pics
1562 2011-03-15 07:38:43 <genjix> (thank me later)
1563 2011-03-15 07:38:56 <dissipate> genjix, who?
1564 2011-03-15 07:39:07 <genjix> try it
1565 2011-03-15 07:40:48 da2ce7 has joined
1566 2011-03-15 07:44:36 <dissipate> genjix, who uses 4 chan anyways? :O
1567 2011-03-15 07:44:51 <dissipate> genjix, as far as i can tell that script is scraping images from 4 chan threads.
1568 2011-03-15 07:46:14 chaord has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1569 2011-03-15 07:46:24 <genjix> yup
1570 2011-03-15 07:46:50 <genjix> dont you find the images hilarious on this thread? http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/315938092
1571 2011-03-15 07:46:53 <dissipate> i need a script that scrapes youtube videos and converts them to ogg vorbis
1572 2011-03-15 07:47:16 <genjix> youtube.com/html5
1573 2011-03-15 07:48:04 TheAncientGoat has joined
1574 2011-03-15 07:49:35 <dissipate> some of them, yes
1575 2011-03-15 07:51:18 <dissipate> in between the gore and porn
1576 2011-03-15 07:52:35 <LobsterMan> does anyone know what time it is in poland right now?
1577 2011-03-15 07:52:41 <LobsterMan> lol
1578 2011-03-15 07:52:56 <dissipate> i have no idea
1579 2011-03-15 07:53:18 <dissipate> LobsterMan, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
1580 2011-03-15 07:53:23 <LobsterMan> ty
1581 2011-03-15 07:55:24 ZenMondo has joined
1582 2011-03-15 07:55:58 <genjix> http://1.thumbs.4chan.org/b/thumb/1300173033056s.jpg
1583 2011-03-15 07:56:15 <genjix> no, http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1300173033056.gif
1584 2011-03-15 07:56:21 <genjix> wtf that's so brutal
1585 2011-03-15 07:56:35 <LobsterMan> natural selection
1586 2011-03-15 07:56:37 <LobsterMan> in a tank
1587 2011-03-15 07:56:37 <LobsterMan> :P
1588 2011-03-15 08:08:31 _W_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1589 2011-03-15 08:09:10 _W_ has joined
1590 2011-03-15 08:10:47 <da2ce7> ;;lastseen MT`Away
1591 2011-03-15 08:10:47 <gribble> Error: "lastseen" is not a valid command.
1592 2011-03-15 08:10:53 <da2ce7> ;;last MT`Away
1593 2011-03-15 08:10:53 <gribble> (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
1594 2011-03-15 08:11:03 <da2ce7> ;;help
1595 2011-03-15 08:11:04 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
1596 2011-03-15 08:11:10 <da2ce7> ;;list
1597 2011-03-15 08:11:10 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, BitcoinCentralMonitor, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, GPG, Games, Google, Herald, Internet, Later, MarketMonitor, Math, MessageParser, Misc, MtgoxMonitor, Network, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Relay, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, (1 more message)
1598 2011-03-15 08:11:34 <da2ce7> ;;seen MT`Away
1599 2011-03-15 08:11:35 <gribble> MT`Away was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 2 days, 6 hours, 36 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <MT`AwAy> maybe I'll change the usage~
1600 2011-03-15 08:12:03 <da2ce7> MT'Away, has dissapeared.
1601 2011-03-15 08:12:19 <mmagic> ;;bc,stats
1602 2011-03-15 08:12:29 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113590 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1321 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 64697.84526391
1603 2011-03-15 08:12:36 _W_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1604 2011-03-15 08:12:39 <genjix> da2ce7:
1605 2011-03-15 08:12:42 <genjix> ;;seen MagicalTux
1606 2011-03-15 08:12:42 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 12 hours, 8 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> php doesn't cast json integers to floats
1607 2011-03-15 08:12:52 <genjix> ^ like that
1608 2011-03-15 08:13:21 _W_ has joined
1609 2011-03-15 08:13:29 <da2ce7> yeah I worked it out? dose anyone know what happend to MT`Away? or is MT`Away MagicalTux?
1610 2011-03-15 08:13:36 <genjix> yes
1611 2011-03-15 08:13:40 <da2ce7> O
1612 2011-03-15 08:13:56 <MagicalTux> it's me
1613 2011-03-15 08:14:04 <da2ce7> :)
1614 2011-03-15 08:14:13 <MagicalTux> I live in Tokyo so things are a bit difficult right now
1615 2011-03-15 08:14:32 <FellowTraveler> sorry bro.
1616 2011-03-15 08:14:46 <da2ce7> :( are your sever going offline with your rolling power outages?
1617 2011-03-15 08:14:58 <MagicalTux> da2ce7: no, most of my servers are in US
1618 2011-03-15 08:15:09 <MagicalTux> the japanese ones are in central Tokyo, which is not subject to rolling blackouts
1619 2011-03-15 08:15:13 <da2ce7> cause I was wondering if I could orgnize a dev server for osearth
1620 2011-03-15 08:15:15 <genjix> how much has the quake affected people in tokyo?
1621 2011-03-15 08:15:29 <MagicalTux> genjix: it improved sales
1622 2011-03-15 08:15:30 <genjix> is there power cuts and collapsed buildings?
1623 2011-03-15 08:15:36 <MagicalTux> http://twitter.com/MagicalTux/status/47518090598170625
1624 2011-03-15 08:15:44 <genjix> oh cool
1625 2011-03-15 08:16:08 <MagicalTux> genjix: in Tokyo there's no collapsed buildings, and the power cuts are there to reduce the global power usage as there are now 11 nuclear plants missing from the grid
1626 2011-03-15 08:16:27 <mmagic> wow, 1-day window estimate shrinking to sub-60k
1627 2011-03-15 08:16:51 <mmagic> if the hashrate is reflective of the problems in japan, i am no longer glad it is so low. :(
1628 2011-03-15 08:16:53 <genjix> i wouldn't worry about the nuclear power plants
1629 2011-03-15 08:17:14 <genjix> @hashrate. isn't it cos MM stopped mining?
1630 2011-03-15 08:17:33 <mmagic> no
1631 2011-03-15 08:18:24 <genjix> that earthquake is totally shocking
1632 2011-03-15 08:18:36 <genjix> you dont expect 10k dead in a first world country EVER
1633 2011-03-15 08:19:21 <mmagic> 8.9 is bad. it's close to the maximum planned-for in first-world countries.
1634 2011-03-15 08:19:53 <mmagic> bunkers plan for 9.0 and build on granite flutes that extend deep into the earth
1635 2011-03-15 08:20:10 <mmagic> giant steel doors 24-inches thick.
1636 2011-03-15 08:20:26 Bth8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1637 2011-03-15 08:20:55 <mmagic> "this facility might continue operations past a 9.0"
1638 2011-03-15 08:22:11 <mmagic> extend that out, and it's not surprising at all. japanese engineering and planning are the only reasons why the death toll isn't an order or two of magnitude greater.
1639 2011-03-15 08:22:49 <genjix> i just dont get why active nuclear plants are more popular than passive ones... goes against all engineering logic
1640 2011-03-15 08:22:57 <genjix> but then again im not an engineer :p
1641 2011-03-15 08:23:50 <mmagic> the earliest plant went online in 1967. it's not like they could just choose the 5-year-old CANDU design and build one of those.
1642 2011-03-15 08:24:12 <mmagic> meanwhile, retrofitting a nuclear reactor often costs more than building a new one.
1643 2011-03-15 08:24:31 ApertureScience has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1644 2011-03-15 08:24:52 <genjix> i mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
1645 2011-03-15 08:25:15 <genjix> normal nuclear reactors need attention from people to stop them over-heating
1646 2011-03-15 08:25:28 <genjix> (you insert the control rods into the moderator)
1647 2011-03-15 08:26:05 <genjix> and you have to pump water in to cool the system... if water stops then plant goes critical (so it also needs constant attention)
1648 2011-03-15 08:26:09 ApertureScience has joined
1649 2011-03-15 08:26:27 <genjix> in a passive system, when you stop paying attention, the the reactor slows down (output stalls)
1650 2011-03-15 08:26:45 <genjix> one needs active monitoring, the other runs passively.
1651 2011-03-15 08:27:13 <mmagic> 1966 for the AVR
1652 2011-03-15 08:28:05 <genjix> oh so seems you know more than this, than me :p
1653 2011-03-15 08:28:07 <mmagic> again, new technology, new designs, untested, and more crucially (for example with CANDU) the expertise was localised and not globally available. it's a pretty exclusive club. you don't get a bid from someone, you don't award it and it doesn't get built.
1654 2011-03-15 08:28:16 <genjix> you able to explain why what i said is wrong?
1655 2011-03-15 08:28:25 <genjix> why not?
1656 2011-03-15 08:28:31 <genjix> seems like a solid idea.
1657 2011-03-15 08:28:47 <mmagic> sure.
1658 2011-03-15 08:29:17 <mmagic> doesn't mean just anyone can build a CANDU, or an AVR. the designs are(were) patented, carefully-guarded national secrets.
1659 2011-03-15 08:29:26 <mmagic> if someone doesn't want to come in a build, it's not going to happen.
1660 2011-03-15 08:29:44 <mmagic> meanwhile, note that the contractors for those nuclear plants were american: who wins the bids post-war?
1661 2011-03-15 08:32:14 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1666 2011-03-15 08:38:15 <mmagic> geez, japan's in quite a state.. holy smokes.
1667 2011-03-15 08:40:30 tower has joined
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1671 2011-03-15 08:51:48 Xunie has joined
1672 2011-03-15 08:53:10 <devon_hillard> <mmagic> geez, japan's in quite a state.. holy smokes.
1673 2011-03-15 08:53:21 <devon_hillard> glowy smokes
1674 2011-03-15 09:12:26 <genjix> this sucks because MT owns the domain to the GBP exchange I want to open :(
1675 2011-03-15 09:12:38 <genjix> fuck you mother nature
1676 2011-03-15 09:17:07 <da2ce7> genjix, pick annother extange name
1677 2011-03-15 09:17:55 <genjix> nope
1678 2011-03-15 09:22:54 towerX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1679 2011-03-15 09:29:36 tower has joined
1680 2011-03-15 09:32:12 tower is now known as towerX
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1687 2011-03-15 09:52:31 <MagicalTux> genjix: ?
1688 2011-03-15 09:52:36 <MagicalTux> if you want the domain I give it to ya
1689 2011-03-15 09:52:43 luke-jr has joined
1690 2011-03-15 09:52:55 <MagicalTux> I recon I don't have the time to handle that right now, gotta fight some neutrons first
1691 2011-03-15 10:02:18 Ad0 has joined
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1697 2011-03-15 10:21:18 asperand has joined
1698 2011-03-15 10:25:48 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
1699 2011-03-15 10:25:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113602 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1309 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 17 hours, 26 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 64644.28663887
1700 2011-03-15 10:26:08 <JFK911> another day without bitcoins
1701 2011-03-15 10:29:27 <Aciid> mine some
1702 2011-03-15 10:30:30 <Aciid> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
1703 2011-03-15 10:30:32 <Aciid> FAIL
1704 2011-03-15 10:30:53 cdecker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1705 2011-03-15 10:31:48 <slush1> Aciid: Looks like we found the balance between hashrate and current bitcoin price
1706 2011-03-15 10:34:24 <Aciid> USD 0.8663 0.8750
1707 2011-03-15 10:34:26 <Aciid> on the rise
1708 2011-03-15 10:36:13 TD has joined
1709 2011-03-15 10:37:55 <da2ce7> lol cougar town
1710 2011-03-15 10:38:20 larsivi has joined
1711 2011-03-15 10:39:25 <genjix> MagicalTux: yes please :p
1712 2011-03-15 10:40:08 <MagicalTux> genjix: pv
1713 2011-03-15 10:42:10 xelister has joined
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1716 2011-03-15 11:02:04 <molecular> slush, I don't think this is the balance. mining is still way too profitable ;)
1717 2011-03-15 11:03:10 <molecular> it seems we have the lowest hashrate since march 1st ;)
1718 2011-03-15 11:07:10 <xelister> everything sucks cocks
1719 2011-03-15 11:07:12 <xelister> part #51
1720 2011-03-15 11:07:29 <xelister> today my linux crashes (quits X) when ever using an KDE program especially Krusader.
1721 2011-03-15 11:08:40 <xelister> blaaarghghg.
1722 2011-03-15 11:08:53 <xelister> and it is on the box that is NOT mining, NOT overclocked
1723 2011-03-15 11:09:12 <xelister> and this box does nothing basically. Besides sucking beforementioned cock apparently
1724 2011-03-15 11:25:51 Spenvo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1725 2011-03-15 11:28:56 <Aciid> geez I've been stupid when i first started overclocking
1726 2011-03-15 11:29:07 <Aciid> didn't know you had to increase voltage in order to run stable with higherclocks
1727 2011-03-15 11:29:39 <Aciid> now at 1256mV
1728 2011-03-15 11:29:46 <Aciid> coreclock at 1000Mhz
1729 2011-03-15 11:30:54 <da2ce7> I underclock, and drop the voltage, so my graphics cards are running warm, not hot.
1730 2011-03-15 11:34:07 towerX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1731 2011-03-15 11:34:48 <Aciid> da2ce7: higher core = higher hashrate
1732 2011-03-15 11:35:24 <xelister> Aciid: at o.c., without over voltage, my card starts generating invalid hashes, and on higher oc it hangs
1733 2011-03-15 11:35:26 <da2ce7> Aciid, I agree however I have expencive power... So Hash/Watt
1734 2011-03-15 11:35:27 <xelister> you thing ov solves this>
1735 2011-03-15 11:39:24 <Aciid> xelister: my drivers and my cards crash with high Coreclock if I dont OV
1736 2011-03-15 11:39:36 <Aciid> even 980is too much without voltage tweak
1737 2011-03-15 11:40:21 <da2ce7> I'm running my 5970's at 1.040v @ 800Mhz
1738 2011-03-15 11:41:22 <da2ce7> and my 6970's at 1.050v @ 850MHz
1739 2011-03-15 11:41:54 <Aciid> just crashed hard. fuck yea RDP
1740 2011-03-15 11:42:05 <Aciid> "goin to leave work earlier to reboot."
1741 2011-03-15 11:42:17 <Aciid> should buy a KVM or setup Wake on lan
1742 2011-03-15 11:42:36 <retinal> it's a shame that a lot of pre-built systems don't support WOL these days
1743 2011-03-15 11:43:18 tower has joined
1744 2011-03-15 11:43:27 <retinal> well, most of them do at the OS level when in sleep mode, but not from a powered-off state
1745 2011-03-15 11:45:54 tower is now known as towerX
1746 2011-03-15 11:47:11 <Aciid> retinal: mine does, but behind NAT
1747 2011-03-15 11:47:28 <Aciid> every %/&%&/ day I'm like "im going to bridge the modem today"
1748 2011-03-15 11:47:34 <Aciid> and I never remember
1749 2011-03-15 11:47:45 <retinal> :x
1750 2011-03-15 11:48:01 <retinal> I use WOL to turn on my system in the morning using my phone
1751 2011-03-15 11:48:14 <Aciid> yeah WOL is awesome
1752 2011-03-15 11:57:28 <[Tycho]> Why it's not working at night ?
1753 2011-03-15 12:03:21 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1754 2011-03-15 12:19:16 dwdollar has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1755 2011-03-15 12:25:52 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
1756 2011-03-15 12:25:52 noagendamarket has joined
1757 2011-03-15 12:27:27 FellowTraveler has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1758 2011-03-15 12:31:44 BlueMatt has joined
1759 2011-03-15 12:31:47 <xelister> Aciid: 980 on what card? 5770 can be oc to 960 max by default
1760 2011-03-15 12:32:11 <xelister> Aciid: crashed at 980+ov?
1761 2011-03-15 12:44:51 <xelister> damn weather
1762 2011-03-15 12:44:59 <xelister> 24 C ambient temp.... cards overheating
1763 2011-03-15 12:45:09 <xelister> i wonder how will wather affect miners
1764 2011-03-15 12:45:25 <genjix> ;;bc,difficulty
1765 2011-03-15 12:45:26 <gribble> Error: "bc,difficulty" is not a valid command.
1766 2011-03-15 12:45:31 <genjix> ;;bc,help
1767 2011-03-15 12:45:31 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
1768 2011-03-15 12:45:39 <genjix> ;;bc,diff
1769 2011-03-15 12:45:39 <gribble> 76193.9710474
1770 2011-03-15 12:45:43 <genjix> ;;bc,estimate
1771 2011-03-15 12:45:44 <gribble> 64297.82415377
1772 2011-03-15 12:45:50 <genjix> heh
1773 2011-03-15 12:52:31 <da2ce7> xelister, my cards were running at 95c when AUS summer was 35C, I guess they didn't like it that much
1774 2011-03-15 12:54:08 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: you might want to fix that
1775 2011-03-15 12:54:09 <xelister> 95 C lol ftw
1776 2011-03-15 12:54:11 <xelister> .....
1777 2011-03-15 12:54:37 <xelister> da2ce7: my cards where at 95 C for a second why accidentially set fan speed to '$1' instead "$1" (0% instead 70%) lol
1778 2011-03-15 12:54:42 <xelister> but it was like 5 seconds
1779 2011-03-15 12:55:03 <da2ce7> yeah, on the hot days, when it was 40C they were like 100C
1780 2011-03-15 12:55:15 <xelister> 100C lololol
1781 2011-03-15 12:55:16 <da2ce7> I don't think that they sustained any damage
1782 2011-03-15 12:55:46 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: yea, maybe try watercooling and some ac? maybe peltiers?
1783 2011-03-15 12:55:49 <da2ce7> my first 5970 died, so I just got it back from waranty
1784 2011-03-15 12:56:05 <da2ce7> but that was b4 the summer
1785 2011-03-15 12:56:10 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1786 2011-03-15 12:56:15 <da2ce7> it only was running at 90C
1787 2011-03-15 12:57:42 <Aciid> I must break you , 1GHZ CC
1788 2011-03-15 12:58:56 <sipa> CC?
1789 2011-03-15 12:58:56 <da2ce7> :P yeah, well now my cards are at a happy 75-80C
1790 2011-03-15 12:59:21 <BlueMatt> I think this is the only community Ive ever seen where people work really hard to oc, but couldnt care less about temps or cooling
1791 2011-03-15 13:00:31 * da2ce7 undervolts and overclocks.
1792 2011-03-15 13:00:45 <Aciid> sipa: core clock
1793 2011-03-15 13:01:44 <genjix> would be nice if bitcoin used better names than db pdb cdb so that i can grep for stuff :p
1794 2011-03-15 13:02:57 <da2ce7> http://hosting11.imagecross.com/image-hosting-63/8191gpustuff.png
1795 2011-03-15 13:03:33 <xelister> da2ce7: hah youre crazy =) highfive.
1796 2011-03-15 13:03:45 <da2ce7> :)
1797 2011-03-15 13:03:53 <xelister> da2ce7: it is generally belive high temp demages fans very quickly
1798 2011-03-15 13:04:00 <xelister> unless you have ballbearing fans?
1799 2011-03-15 13:04:14 <da2ce7> no just the stock fans.
1800 2011-03-15 13:04:19 * xelister tries to keep card <80 C always
1801 2011-03-15 13:04:37 <da2ce7> I fully expect to sell the GPU's by the end of October.
1802 2011-03-15 13:04:53 * xelister takes not to buy from da2ce7 =)
1803 2011-03-15 13:05:07 <luke-jr_> da2ce7: for $50 ?
1804 2011-03-15 13:05:37 <luke-jr_> ⦠and you warranty'd an OC'd card? that's theft
1805 2011-03-15 13:05:37 * xelister takes note to not buy from da2ce7 =)
1806 2011-03-15 13:05:41 * da2ce7 thinks that some silly gamer will like the cards... anyway games don't tax the cards that much, and ain't are run 24hours.
1807 2011-03-15 13:05:56 <da2ce7> so prob won't have an issue
1808 2011-03-15 13:06:04 <luke-jr_> except that you've already done the damage
1809 2011-03-15 13:06:14 <luke-jr_> that doesn't just go away
1810 2011-03-15 13:06:19 * da2ce7 will market the cards as 'well burnt in and tested'
1811 2011-03-15 13:06:28 <luke-jr_> then you're false advertising
1812 2011-03-15 13:06:30 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: yes games do tax cards (thats kind of what they are designed for) though thte 24 hour thing is mostly true, a lot of gamers play for 8+ hours at a time
1813 2011-03-15 13:06:35 <luke-jr_> you must label them as "damaged"
1814 2011-03-15 13:06:37 <xelister> lol well burnt in
1815 2011-03-15 13:06:48 * xelister drops napalm @ luke-jr_
1816 2011-03-15 13:06:49 <BlueMatt> xelister: high temps cause way more problems than just the fans
1817 2011-03-15 13:06:56 * xelister marks luke-jr_ as well burnt in and tested troll
1818 2011-03-15 13:06:58 <xelister> :P
1819 2011-03-15 13:07:22 <luke-jr_> or at least "overclocked"
1820 2011-03-15 13:07:31 <luke-jr_> though idiots might not know what that means
1821 2011-03-15 13:07:45 <da2ce7> luke-jr, they have been undervolted, so that has less damage to them
1822 2011-03-15 13:07:46 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: your cards are running @ 80 and you aren't running fans at full>
1823 2011-03-15 13:07:47 <BlueMatt> ???
1824 2011-03-15 13:08:03 <luke-jr_> da2ce7: prove it
1825 2011-03-15 13:08:06 * da2ce7 thinks tht the noise is annoying.
1826 2011-03-15 13:08:29 <da2ce7> luke-jr, the standard voltage is 1.050v
1827 2011-03-15 13:08:30 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: luke-jr_ its temps that cause problems not clock speeds really
1828 2011-03-15 13:08:34 <luke-jr_> also, less damage is still damage
1829 2011-03-15 13:08:53 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: well you could avoid damage if you just turn the fans up a bit
1830 2011-03-15 13:08:58 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: then explain why he just committed warranty fraud?
1831 2011-03-15 13:09:31 * da2ce7 thinks that the cards will be fine... if they last till October, they will last in the less stressfull hands of a gamer.
1832 2011-03-15 13:09:51 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: he did commit warranty fraud. His warranty almost certainly says "expires if you oc"
1833 2011-03-15 13:10:26 <da2ce7> hmm, no the card I returned wasn't overclocked other than when testing.
1834 2011-03-15 13:10:26 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: a ton of gamers oc and stress their cards a ton too
1835 2011-03-15 13:10:35 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: if his form of OC didn't do damage, he wouldn't have had any need to get it replaced
1836 2011-03-15 13:10:48 <da2ce7> the card was unstable on any setting above 80C
1837 2011-03-15 13:10:52 <luke-jr_> da2ce7: overclocked once ever is damage
1838 2011-03-15 13:11:10 <Aciid> no it isn't
1839 2011-03-15 13:11:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: doesnt matter what caused the damage, the contract says "invalid after oc"
1840 2011-03-15 13:11:27 <da2ce7> the card was designed to run at up2 90C, was crashing consistantly at 80C
1841 2011-03-15 13:11:30 <Aciid> BlueMatt: 5970 warranty goes if you flip the "unlock" switch
1842 2011-03-15 13:11:34 <Aciid> as an example
1843 2011-03-15 13:11:50 <BlueMatt> exactly
1844 2011-03-15 13:11:52 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1845 2011-03-15 13:12:05 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: warranty contracts are regulated. they can only say that BECAUSE OC is by definition damaging it
1846 2011-03-15 13:12:22 * da2ce7 thinks that it was a bad card, as my other card is still fucking stable, and has been throogh alot.
1847 2011-03-15 13:12:56 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: not necessarily, but really no one knows for sure what the exact damage is
1848 2011-03-15 13:13:32 <Aciid> the transistors are the ones that will take the most damage
1849 2011-03-15 13:13:34 <Aciid> if you overclock
1850 2011-03-15 13:14:20 <da2ce7> there are two types of damage, overheating, and overvolting. If you keep your card cold, you can still damage it by rasing the voltage.
1851 2011-03-15 13:14:21 <BlueMatt> well no one ocs and undervolts and overvolts etc and then looks at individual transistors under a microscope
1852 2011-03-15 13:14:21 <BlueMatt> was my point
1853 2011-03-15 13:14:52 <da2ce7> undervolting makes the card's life longer, as there are less stress on the transistors.
1854 2011-03-15 13:15:20 <da2ce7> I have never overvolted any of my cards.
1855 2011-03-15 13:15:35 <Aciid> you can overvolt in the saferange
1856 2011-03-15 13:16:21 * da2ce7 dosn't really care about the cards, they have earnt themselves many times over.
1857 2011-03-15 13:16:21 <BlueMatt> yea normally you can overvolt inside of spec
1858 2011-03-15 13:16:37 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1859 2011-03-15 13:17:27 sabalaba has joined
1860 2011-03-15 13:18:04 <da2ce7> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3RgofXZq90
1861 2011-03-15 13:18:06 <da2ce7> so annoying.
1862 2011-03-15 13:19:36 <da2ce7> there is a crossfire x flickering bug
1863 2011-03-15 13:19:42 <da2ce7> makes gameplay shit
1864 2011-03-15 13:20:14 <Aciid> so, someone buys 5970 crossfire to play oblivion ?
1865 2011-03-15 13:20:15 <Aciid> =D
1866 2011-03-15 13:20:28 <da2ce7> no that is me.
1867 2011-03-15 13:20:44 <da2ce7> I cannot use quad crossfire with oblivion.
1868 2011-03-15 13:20:53 <da2ce7> as there is this most annoying crossfire bug
1869 2011-03-15 13:20:57 <Aciid> oh yeah thats dual-GPU
1870 2011-03-15 13:21:06 <Aciid> theres your problem
1871 2011-03-15 13:21:06 <da2ce7> quad
1872 2011-03-15 13:21:15 <Aciid> dual-gpu crossfire gaming..
1873 2011-03-15 13:21:41 <Aciid> da2ce7: that doesnt happen in every game does it?
1874 2011-03-15 13:21:43 <da2ce7> hmm yeah, it otherwise works fine, except the colour balance on one of the GPU's is fucked.
1875 2011-03-15 13:21:46 <da2ce7> yep
1876 2011-03-15 13:22:02 <da2ce7> every game I've tested.
1877 2011-03-15 13:22:13 gasteve has joined
1878 2011-03-15 13:22:34 <Aciid> http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=262&threadid=136228
1879 2011-03-15 13:22:45 <Aciid> In 10.3 I have had to lock v-sync at 60Hz in both the driver and my games that support it (not all do).
1880 2011-03-15 13:22:48 <Aciid> quote ^
1881 2011-03-15 13:24:06 larsivi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1882 2011-03-15 13:29:55 da2ce7 has quit ()
1883 2011-03-15 13:33:30 gavinandresen has joined
1884 2011-03-15 13:35:25 <gavinandresen> TD: latest testnet-in-a-box looks great, I'm going to upload it to sourceforge
1885 2011-03-15 13:35:48 <TD> gavinandresen: sweet
1886 2011-03-15 13:35:49 da2ce7 has joined
1887 2011-03-15 13:36:03 <gavinandresen> ... or maybe github gist... or maybe both... hmmm
1888 2011-03-15 13:36:07 <TD> it revealed an embarassing bug in bitcoinj though - i can't download chains of less than 500 blocks, haha :-)
1889 2011-03-15 13:36:13 <TD> or rather i can
1890 2011-03-15 13:36:17 <TD> just can't "wait for completion"
1891 2011-03-15 13:36:19 <gavinandresen> Nice bug!
1892 2011-03-15 13:36:32 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
1893 2011-03-15 13:40:03 <gavinandresen> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/
1894 2011-03-15 13:40:29 <TD> spiffy
1895 2011-03-15 13:40:33 <TD> i'll make a forum post about it
1896 2011-03-15 13:40:41 <gavinandresen> Great, thanks
1897 2011-03-15 13:40:47 <TD> then i need to figure out how to use the nvidia card in my workstation to let me knock out local blocks whenever i want one
1898 2011-03-15 13:51:35 * Kiba whistle himself in boring morning
1899 2011-03-15 13:51:43 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1900 2011-03-15 13:52:16 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1901 2011-03-15 13:53:19 <davex__> ;;bc,estimate
1902 2011-03-15 13:53:21 molecular has joined
1903 2011-03-15 13:53:24 <gribble> 64168.13721388
1904 2011-03-15 13:53:30 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
1905 2011-03-15 13:53:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113614 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1297 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 16 hours, 52 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 64168.13721388
1906 2011-03-15 13:58:17 Avemo has joined
1907 2011-03-15 14:01:06 <gavinandresen> I'm about to pull a bunch of patches into the integration tree... it's going to look scary.
1908 2011-03-15 14:01:41 <CIA-95> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r27b7f3b / (main.cpp net.h): Merge branch 'shy' (+8 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/eVnfmi
1909 2011-03-15 14:02:11 <gavinandresen> I take it back, that doesn't look so bad. It is six different pull requests.
1910 2011-03-15 14:02:34 <gavinandresen> (shy client, subcent_change, daemon_mode, limitfree, log_timestamp and dns_seed)
1911 2011-03-15 14:02:47 sabalaba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1912 2011-03-15 14:05:08 <TD> ahh, url shorteners
1913 2011-03-15 14:05:13 <CIA-95> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r33 /trunk/docs/ (14 files in 3 dirs): Refresh JavaDocs.
1914 2011-03-15 14:05:16 <TD> nice
1915 2011-03-15 14:05:29 <TD> CIA is a lot easier to use these days, vs when we created it ...
1916 2011-03-15 14:13:15 JohnnyFusion has joined
1917 2011-03-15 14:23:17 skeledrew1 has joined
1918 2011-03-15 14:25:32 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1919 2011-03-15 14:31:05 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
1920 2011-03-15 14:31:06 <gribble> 64141.30465949
1921 2011-03-15 14:31:40 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,blocks
1922 2011-03-15 14:31:41 <gribble> 113616
1923 2011-03-15 14:32:44 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,stats
1924 2011-03-15 14:32:46 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113617 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1294 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 16 hours, 38 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 64074.32134864
1925 2011-03-15 14:44:18 Syke_ has joined
1926 2011-03-15 14:46:14 Syke has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1927 2011-03-15 14:47:33 devon_hillard has joined
1928 2011-03-15 14:51:28 Syke__ has joined
1929 2011-03-15 14:54:36 Syke_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1930 2011-03-15 14:56:22 Syke_ has joined
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1933 2011-03-15 15:08:30 <devon_hillard> any bitcoiners in japan?
1934 2011-03-15 15:09:26 <sipa> MagicalTux
1935 2011-03-15 15:14:21 <xelister> MagicalTux: did earthquake affected your mining?
1936 2011-03-15 15:14:35 <xelister> there will be electrical blackouts to some degree it seems
1937 2011-03-15 15:16:46 <devon_hillard> where is that pu-238 battery when you need it?
1938 2011-03-15 15:17:48 JohnnyFusion has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1939 2011-03-15 15:19:54 <UukGoblin> yes I guess the most important thing Japan is worried about now is that bitcoin mining stopped
1940 2011-03-15 15:20:55 <forrestv> ...
1941 2011-03-15 15:25:47 <xelister> UukGoblin: I sympathise with all victims of course, still this is #bitcoin-dev not #fukushima
1942 2011-03-15 15:25:55 Syke__ has joined
1943 2011-03-15 15:29:21 Syke_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1944 2011-03-15 15:30:12 alystair has joined
1945 2011-03-15 15:32:23 * molecular accidentally closed an issue on github.
1946 2011-03-15 15:32:28 <molecular> can I reopen it somehow?
1947 2011-03-15 15:32:41 JohnnyFusion has joined
1948 2011-03-15 15:38:46 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1949 2011-03-15 15:39:32 gavinandresen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1950 2011-03-15 15:40:32 towerX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1951 2011-03-15 15:44:52 BlueMatt has joined
1952 2011-03-15 15:44:52 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
1953 2011-03-15 15:44:52 BlueMatt has joined
1954 2011-03-15 15:45:19 atlinstigator has joined
1955 2011-03-15 15:45:40 <BlueMatt> is there a hearbeat/keepalive packet sent on a regular basis to keep connections from timing out, or is it just based on tx/block relays?
1956 2011-03-15 15:46:05 gavinandresen has joined
1957 2011-03-15 15:47:02 <ArtForz> yes
1958 2011-03-15 15:47:16 <BlueMatt> how often?
1959 2011-03-15 15:47:20 <ArtForz> every 30 minutes
1960 2011-03-15 15:47:29 <BlueMatt> thanks
1961 2011-03-15 15:47:44 MacRohard has joined
1962 2011-03-15 15:47:49 <ArtForz> well, after 30 minutes without sending anything else
1963 2011-03-15 15:48:06 <ArtForz> client assumes peer is dead if it doesnt hear anything for 90 minutes
1964 2011-03-15 15:48:20 <BlueMatt> thanks
1965 2011-03-15 15:48:21 atlinstigator has quit (Client Quit)
1966 2011-03-15 15:48:24 tower has joined
1967 2011-03-15 15:48:55 <molecular> BlueMatt, are you looking at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/48 ?
1968 2011-03-15 15:49:11 <BlueMatt> molecular: yea, writing a response now...
1969 2011-03-15 15:49:24 <molecular> is the issue closed? I think I closed it by accident
1970 2011-03-15 15:49:44 <gavinandresen> molecular: does the Actions pull-down have an 'open' for you?
1971 2011-03-15 15:50:46 <molecular> I dont see an "actions" pull-down... where is it?
1972 2011-03-15 15:51:00 tower is now known as towerX
1973 2011-03-15 15:51:07 <gavinandresen> Ah, might be an admin thing-- Top, next the Back to Issues link
1974 2011-03-15 15:51:33 <molecular> nothing there. right of it is search box
1975 2011-03-15 15:51:40 <gavinandresen> Ok, I'll re-open it for you
1976 2011-03-15 15:51:44 <molecular> thanks
1977 2011-03-15 15:51:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: dont see it either
1978 2011-03-15 15:51:49 <gavinandresen> (done)
1979 2011-03-15 15:53:15 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: somehow 2 comments got deleted?
1980 2011-03-15 15:53:24 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nevermind only the one
1981 2011-03-15 15:53:52 wolfspraul has joined
1982 2011-03-15 15:56:23 <molecular> I deleted the comment about having closed the issue
1983 2011-03-15 15:58:12 <BlueMatt> molecular: when you see the bug, do you have the ports properly forwarded (shouldnt make a difference, bud Id like to replicate your system as exactly as possible)
1984 2011-03-15 15:58:43 <BlueMatt> Side question: does anyone know if there is a system in existence which does not support UPnP but supports NAT-PMP? (apple airport maybe?)
1985 2011-03-15 16:00:01 <molecular> BlueMatt, yes, I have 18333 forwarded
1986 2011-03-15 16:00:12 <BlueMatt> molecular: so, the wrong port?
1987 2011-03-15 16:00:16 <molecular> no, testnet
1988 2011-03-15 16:00:21 <BlueMatt> molecular: ah, ok
1989 2011-03-15 16:01:38 <molecular> can I manually append to debug.log without interfering? ('echo "switching IP now" >> debug.log')
1990 2011-03-15 16:02:11 <BlueMatt> molecular: do you mind just pulling my log time pull request and compiling that?
1991 2011-03-15 16:02:16 <BlueMatt> molecular: better for timing
1992 2011-03-15 16:02:45 <molecular> would love to, but I cant get wxwidgets 2.9, so I cant compile ;(( am trying, though
1993 2011-03-15 16:03:19 <BlueMatt> molecular: do you mind using bitcoind?
1994 2011-03-15 16:04:15 <molecular> wouldn't mind, can see connection count on rpc, right?
1995 2011-03-15 16:04:28 <BlueMatt> molecular: yea, getinfo will give you a connection count
1996 2011-03-15 16:04:32 <molecular> can I compile just bitcoind?
1997 2011-03-15 16:04:45 <molecular> without needing wxWidgets?
1998 2011-03-15 16:04:54 <BlueMatt> molecular: should be able to, on linux you just do make -f makefile... bitcoind
1999 2011-03-15 16:06:31 <molecular> ok, seems to work, no complain about wx any more, but other troubles... resolving...
2000 2011-03-15 16:08:01 bt2100 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2001 2011-03-15 16:08:42 <molecular> should probably look at that gentoo ebuild someone made. troubles with libdb now
2002 2011-03-15 16:09:04 <BlueMatt> molecular: I can compile one for you if you want...
2003 2011-03-15 16:09:30 <molecular> I wanted to be able to compile bitcoin for a long time... might come back to your offer. but let me try a little harder first
2004 2011-03-15 16:14:28 JohnnyFusion has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2005 2011-03-15 16:17:37 <slush> molecular: I'm not sure if I'd like to buy new hardware after short look on exponential growth of diff. Of course, when we have already our rigs paid out, it is still fine, because we don't risk too much
2006 2011-03-15 16:21:12 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2007 2011-03-15 16:21:38 molecular has joined
2008 2011-03-15 16:22:59 <molecular> slush, true. probably wouldn't buy at this point either, except if I had cheaper power maybe.
2009 2011-03-15 16:23:13 <phantomcircuit> slush, well as long as you're above the marginal cost of electricity the worse thing you've done is purchased resalable hardware
2010 2011-03-15 16:23:38 <molecular> nevertheless, I started jan 20th and am even now. It might still be possible depending on difficulty and exchange rate
2011 2011-03-15 16:26:38 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2012 2011-03-15 16:26:53 <slush> phantomcircuit: well, current hashrate is quite low, but adding hashpower has little latency (people are looking around, seeing how it works, which is the price etc and then decide to join to mining; then they have to study all things around mining and buy & set up hardware). So current drop/sideways movement is probably caused by the MM issue (as hashrate was climbing up really fast, which discouraged many people). And we can expect next rising soon
2013 2011-03-15 16:27:53 <phantomcircuit> slush, sure, but the price of the gfx cards doesn't appear to be dropping precipitously on the secondary market
2014 2011-03-15 16:27:56 <phantomcircuit> (aka ebay)
2015 2011-03-15 16:28:13 <slush> phantomcircuit: shorty said - now it looks again quite profitable, but nobody known what will happen and if hashrate will be over 1THash/s soon :)
2016 2011-03-15 16:28:16 <[Tycho]> That looks like real vulnerability.
2017 2011-03-15 16:28:47 <phantomcircuit> slush, sure and at that point you can sell your mining hardware
2018 2011-03-15 16:29:02 <slush> phantomcircuit: but you cannot sell out your invested time. Nobody will build a rig just to be 5% over his running costs
2019 2011-03-15 16:29:12 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2020 2011-03-15 16:29:26 <slush> [Tycho]: what exactly?
2021 2011-03-15 16:29:31 molecular has joined
2022 2011-03-15 16:30:47 <[Tycho]> slush, evil guy joins, pushes diff all the way up and then disconnects. Block interval increses significantly - people not happy with it.
2023 2011-03-15 16:31:13 <slush> yes, I don't like the drop in hashrate, too. It is quite annoying to wait for confirmation so long
2024 2011-03-15 16:31:30 <midnightmagic> i'm pretty happy with it. :)
2025 2011-03-15 16:31:58 <slush> I don't like it also as a miner
2026 2011-03-15 16:32:06 <slush> because dropping hashrate means lower interest in project
2027 2011-03-15 16:32:37 <midnightmagic> it just grew too big too fast. like satoshi kept hammering on: adoption of the currency for payment is what drives it, not speculator douchebags looking to make a buck
2028 2011-03-15 16:32:52 <slush> agree
2029 2011-03-15 16:33:48 <slush> ;;bc,calc 130000000
2030 2011-03-15 16:33:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 130000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 41 minutes and 57 seconds
2031 2011-03-15 16:34:09 <slush> damn, unlucky day
2032 2011-03-15 16:35:56 <xelister> lol @ usa -> v
2033 2011-03-15 16:35:57 <xelister> lol @ usa -> http://i.imgur.com/dlP8X.jpg
2034 2011-03-15 16:36:10 <molecular> jesus, what's the difficulty on testnet? was going to mine a block quickly for testing... not so quick
2035 2011-03-15 16:36:24 <shennyg> /script load notifonotify.pl
2036 2011-03-15 16:36:31 satamusic has joined
2037 2011-03-15 16:36:39 <xelister> molecular: bitcoind getinfo and see
2038 2011-03-15 16:36:45 <[Tycho]> Lol
2039 2011-03-15 16:37:52 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2040 2011-03-15 16:38:48 <molecular> xelister, thx. it's 32
2041 2011-03-15 16:39:33 <ArtForz> not really
2042 2011-03-15 16:39:46 <ArtForz> it's 32 testnet difficulty, which is 16 mainnet difficulty
2043 2011-03-15 16:39:50 <BlueMatt> people need to stop mining so much on testnet, the point is that anyone can get on and test, not I have to buy full-network mining hardware to do that
2044 2011-03-15 16:40:21 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calcd 200000 16
2045 2011-03-15 16:40:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 200000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 16, is 5 minutes and 43 seconds
2046 2011-03-15 16:40:30 <ArtForz> thats a single 5770
2047 2011-03-15 16:40:53 <molecular> why is testnet difficulty half?
2048 2011-03-15 16:41:02 <ArtForz> dunno, it has always been that way
2049 2011-03-15 16:41:08 <slush> to make developers mad
2050 2011-03-15 16:41:11 <molecular> probably in the early day to enable quicker mining?
2051 2011-03-15 16:41:20 <BlueMatt> so that its easier to mine and TEST stuff
2052 2011-03-15 16:41:21 <ArtForz> blockexplorer shows "mainnet-equivalent" difficulty
2053 2011-03-15 16:41:43 <molecular> well, but the difficulty will adjust anyways... so it doesn't really change anything after diff > 1
2054 2011-03-15 16:41:50 <ArtForz> yup
2055 2011-03-15 16:42:34 Zarutian has joined
2056 2011-03-15 16:42:43 <molecular> one would rather have to adjust the 2016 blocks in 2 weeks to something higher
2057 2011-03-15 16:42:50 <molecular> but then that's part of what's to be tested
2058 2011-03-15 16:43:28 molecular has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2059 2011-03-15 16:45:14 molecular has joined
2060 2011-03-15 16:49:10 <molecular> is there something in debug.log when a new connection is established?
2061 2011-03-15 16:49:44 <molecular> maybe "received: verack (0 bytes)" is a sign?
2062 2011-03-15 16:50:10 <molecular> ah, "accepted connection" <- is that on incoming connections or also outgoing?
2063 2011-03-15 16:50:56 <BlueMatt> molecular: I believe that is just incoming, maybe you could just add some printf in net.cpp in the thread which keeps MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS open
2064 2011-03-15 16:51:20 <molecular> I would, but I'm still fighting an update marathon to get new enough libdb
2065 2011-03-15 16:51:35 <BlueMatt> molecular: lol, ok
2066 2011-03-15 16:51:57 JohnnyFusion has joined
2067 2011-03-15 16:52:08 <molecular> damn gentoo
2068 2011-03-15 16:52:27 <molecular> BlueMatt, my test seems to have failed. I'm still connected fine after switching IP, hmmm.
2069 2011-03-15 16:52:48 <BlueMatt> molecular: shame, Ive been considering switching to gentoo when ubuntu 11.04 comes out
2070 2011-03-15 16:53:10 <BlueMatt> molecular: odd, dont think anything has changed in a while
2071 2011-03-15 16:53:29 <molecular> BlueMatt, I actually still like gentoo a lot and am not planning to switch.
2072 2011-03-15 16:54:01 <BlueMatt> molecular: well I keep going back and forth between a lot of distros from arch to gentoo to fedora
2073 2011-03-15 16:54:12 <molecular> the only downside is sometimes you have to resolve a lot of crap when updating stuff (blocking packages and shit) and that takes long because of the compiling ;;
2074 2011-03-15 16:54:59 Necr0s has joined
2075 2011-03-15 16:56:39 <molecular> uh, krass: it says "2/offline - generated -warning: this block was not received by any other nodes and will probably not be accepted!" on newly (after IP switch) mined block, "2 connections". I still received other blocks after IP switch, thogh. Strange?
2076 2011-03-15 16:56:56 <molecular> though*
2077 2011-03-15 16:57:41 <BlueMatt> very
2078 2011-03-15 16:58:24 towerX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2079 2011-03-15 16:58:46 <molecular> this does not compute at all in my mind
2080 2011-03-15 16:59:06 Blitzboom_ has joined
2081 2011-03-15 16:59:09 <BlueMatt> yea I guess I need to do some real research...dam I was hoping Id get out of that
2082 2011-03-15 16:59:52 ducki2p has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2083 2011-03-15 17:00:07 <molecular> my client says: block 10887 while blockexplorer says latest block is 10883 (the one I mined before IP switch). but I didnt mine 4 blocks, only 3 after the switch, so I must've received one.
2084 2011-03-15 17:00:14 <molecular> maybe we have a netsplit on testnet?
2085 2011-03-15 17:00:14 <xelister> ArtForz: lets put your cluster on testnet :>
2086 2011-03-15 17:00:22 <xelister> :trollface:> worked out really well last time
2087 2011-03-15 17:00:32 <echelon> http://outpost.solace.net/meanwhile.jpg
2088 2011-03-15 17:00:45 <xelister> heh echelon
2089 2011-03-15 17:00:48 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2090 2011-03-15 17:00:52 <BlueMatt> too soon echelon too soon
2091 2011-03-15 17:01:00 <echelon> :/
2092 2011-03-15 17:01:03 <molecular> can someone please mine a block on testnet?
2093 2011-03-15 17:01:03 <xelister> echelon: seen 'problem usa?' ? scroll to bottom ;) http://i.imgur.com/dlP8X.jpg
2094 2011-03-15 17:01:19 <xelister> molecular: ok
2095 2011-03-15 17:01:35 <echelon> lol
2096 2011-03-15 17:01:59 <echelon> didn't we already nuke them for pearl harbor
2097 2011-03-15 17:02:21 <echelon> i think the latest events are a result of them slaughtering all those dolphins
2098 2011-03-15 17:02:23 <molecular> yeah, 150.000 to 240.000 dead compared to like 3.000 at pearl harbor.
2099 2011-03-15 17:02:29 <molecular> thats enough payback ;)
2100 2011-03-15 17:02:35 <xelister> echelon: obviously thoes are retards writting such comments, for at least 10 reasons ;) Even by USA standards.
2101 2011-03-15 17:02:46 <molecular> probably 50% trolls
2102 2011-03-15 17:02:57 <echelon> can never be sure :/
2103 2011-03-15 17:03:03 <molecular> poe's law?
2104 2011-03-15 17:03:08 <validus> did everyone forget about the nuke?
2105 2011-03-15 17:03:17 <validus> well atomic bomb rather, not nuke sorry
2106 2011-03-15 17:03:23 <validus> it aint karma thats just retards
2107 2011-03-15 17:03:32 <validus> ppl find something to talk shit about then they do. welcome to the internet
2108 2011-03-15 17:05:18 ducki2p has joined
2109 2011-03-15 17:05:49 tower has joined
2110 2011-03-15 17:06:53 <molecular> BlueMatt, here's a screenshot to illustrate: http://i.imgur.com/xlzY1.jpg
2111 2011-03-15 17:08:02 <BlueMatt> molecular: interesting...
2112 2011-03-15 17:08:26 <BlueMatt> molecular: ok well Ill spend some time on that later. Clearly the bug is much more than I originally thought
2113 2011-03-15 17:08:26 tower is now known as towerX
2114 2011-03-15 17:08:44 <molecular> BlueMatt, it's more comlex than I thought.
2115 2011-03-15 17:08:51 <molecular> BlueMatt, should I document this in the issue?
2116 2011-03-15 17:09:28 <BlueMatt> molecular: if you want, I think the original description is pretty clear though
2117 2011-03-15 17:10:43 Bosma has joined
2118 2011-03-15 17:11:29 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2119 2011-03-15 17:12:05 <molecular> BlueMatt, yeah, but this points to a more complex issue: client still connected, receiving blocks, but mined blocks are displayes as "x/offline?"
2120 2011-03-15 17:12:21 <molecular> displayed*
2121 2011-03-15 17:12:49 <BlueMatt> molecular: I have a feeling it is "connected" but just hasnt timed out ie its been 80 minutes since the last message
2122 2011-03-15 17:13:01 <molecular> xelister, have you mined a block on testnet yet?
2123 2011-03-15 17:13:08 <xelister> nope
2124 2011-03-15 17:13:24 <molecular> BlueMatt, what do you mean by "connected"?
2125 2011-03-15 17:13:49 <BlueMatt> molecular: its not connected but it hasnt timed out yet
2126 2011-03-15 17:14:02 <BlueMatt> has it been 90 minutes?
2127 2011-03-15 17:14:03 <molecular> BlueMatt, but I received a block after the switch.
2128 2011-03-15 17:14:09 <molecular> BlueMatt, no, 20 minutes or so
2129 2011-03-15 17:14:23 <BlueMatt> molecular: equally odd but maybe let it wait 90 minutes and see what happens?
2130 2011-03-15 17:14:23 <xelister> molecular: no connections on testnet
2131 2011-03-15 17:14:28 <xelister> also I use the old testnet wallet...
2132 2011-03-15 17:14:51 <molecular> BlueMatt, yes, I will leave it like this now and see if connections drop to 0 as I expect
2133 2011-03-15 17:15:01 <xelister> molecular: what is your ip
2134 2011-03-15 17:15:15 <molecular> 85.177.128.158
2135 2011-03-15 17:15:43 <xelister> know any other testnet ips?
2136 2011-03-15 17:15:53 <luke-jr_> ooh I made my block finally
2137 2011-03-15 17:16:04 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: what is faucet's testnet ip?
2138 2011-03-15 17:16:55 <xelister> still 0 connection
2139 2011-03-15 17:17:00 <xelister> testnet works ok for you guys?
2140 2011-03-15 17:18:33 jrabbit has joined
2141 2011-03-15 17:19:44 towerX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2142 2011-03-15 17:20:29 <luke-jr_> on the other hand, this means Spesmilo still has bugs â¹
2143 2011-03-15 17:20:41 <luke-jr_> it's still showing my no-fee tx as 0 confirms
2144 2011-03-15 17:20:46 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
2145 2011-03-15 17:21:53 <molecular> xelister, sometimes it takes a long time to get connections
2146 2011-03-15 17:22:08 <molecular> probably helps to forward port 18333
2147 2011-03-15 17:22:36 <molecular> xelister, did you try "-connect 85.177.128.158"?
2148 2011-03-15 17:22:43 tower has joined
2149 2011-03-15 17:24:32 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2150 2011-03-15 17:25:23 tower is now known as towerX
2151 2011-03-15 17:25:39 Calum has joined
2152 2011-03-15 17:26:08 <xelister> yea
2153 2011-03-15 17:26:15 <Calum> Myckel: ping
2154 2011-03-15 17:27:31 <Calum> Myckel
2155 2011-03-15 17:27:31 <Calum> Myckel
2156 2011-03-15 17:27:33 <Calum> Myckel
2157 2011-03-15 17:27:33 <Calum> Myckel
2158 2011-03-15 17:27:33 <Calum> Myckel
2159 2011-03-15 17:27:34 <Calum> Myckel
2160 2011-03-15 17:27:34 <Calum> Myckel
2161 2011-03-15 17:27:37 Calum has quit (Client Quit)
2162 2011-03-15 17:28:33 <Necr0s> Any of y'all have a 5970 fan/cooler to sell?
2163 2011-03-15 17:28:44 bt2100 has joined
2164 2011-03-15 17:30:33 <xelister> molecular: how many blocks are there on testnet?
2165 2011-03-15 17:31:11 <xelister> molecular: ok, I generated
2166 2011-03-15 17:31:51 <xelister> 2 blocks now
2167 2011-03-15 17:32:02 <xelister> I think I will leave the generator overnight... ::trollface:>::
2168 2011-03-15 17:32:15 <xelister> 3
2169 2011-03-15 17:32:18 <xelister> 4
2170 2011-03-15 17:32:26 <xelister> man I miss the times of difficulty 20.
2171 2011-03-15 17:32:42 <Blitzboom_> ;;bc,stats
2172 2011-03-15 17:32:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113630 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1281 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 14 hours, 46 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 63900.81771112
2173 2011-03-15 17:37:53 genjix has joined
2174 2011-03-15 17:37:53 genjix has quit (Changing host)
2175 2011-03-15 17:37:53 genjix has joined
2176 2011-03-15 17:40:08 Blitzboom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2177 2011-03-15 17:41:14 Blitzboom has joined
2178 2011-03-15 17:41:14 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
2179 2011-03-15 17:41:14 Blitzboom has joined
2180 2011-03-15 17:52:32 <BlueMatt> what is art's total ghash?
2181 2011-03-15 17:52:52 <ArtForz> 38.5
2182 2011-03-15 17:54:12 <xelister> what is art's root password?
2183 2011-03-15 17:54:34 <BlueMatt> "IHazmorehashthanyou"
2184 2011-03-15 17:58:46 <EvanR> whats a good mobo for 2 5970s
2185 2011-03-15 17:59:33 <ArtForz> MSI 870-G45
2186 2011-03-15 17:59:52 <EvanR> what kind of power supply would you need in that situation
2187 2011-03-15 18:00:19 <ArtForz> a decent 800W is ok, I'm using cheapish 1kW 80+ gold units
2188 2011-03-15 18:00:35 <EvanR> does a typical unit come with enough plugs for both cards
2189 2011-03-15 18:00:41 <ArtForz> yup
2190 2011-03-15 18:02:43 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2191 2011-03-15 18:03:12 gavinandresen has joined
2192 2011-03-15 18:03:18 jostmey has joined
2193 2011-03-15 18:03:31 <ArtForz> using superflower SF-1000P14XE, identical to NZXT HALE90-1000-M
2194 2011-03-15 18:05:55 <ArtForz> also identical to KINGWIN LZG-1000
2195 2011-03-15 18:06:18 <ArtForz> in a review measured 93% efficiency with 800W load on +12V
2196 2011-03-15 18:06:56 <CIA-95> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r34 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
2197 2011-03-15 18:06:56 <CIA-95> bitcoinj: Some changes to how block chain download is done:
2198 2011-03-15 18:06:56 <CIA-95> bitcoinj: - Progress is now made available
2199 2011-03-15 18:06:56 <CIA-95> bitcoinj: - Fixes bug: can now wait for downloads of chains < 500 blocks
2200 2011-03-15 18:06:56 <CIA-95> bitcoinj: - Flesh out VersionMessage parsing, send BitCoinJ name in subVer field
2201 2011-03-15 18:09:30 <BlueMatt> god how many names does this guy have to have ([mike] on the forums, hearn@google.com, and TD)
2202 2011-03-15 18:09:58 <BlueMatt> sorry TD, just thought Id point that out
2203 2011-03-15 18:10:14 <sipa> Satoshi?
2204 2011-03-15 18:10:20 jrabbit_ has joined
2205 2011-03-15 18:11:36 <luke-jr_> lol
2206 2011-03-15 18:12:06 <luke-jr_> if Satoshi works for Google, we'll have to bail out and create a Google-free cryptocommodity
2207 2011-03-15 18:12:07 <luke-jr_> :p
2208 2011-03-15 18:13:52 * jgarzik has the sense, for the past few months, that the bitcoin economy is slowing down
2209 2011-03-15 18:14:05 <BlueMatt> I agree
2210 2011-03-15 18:14:07 <jgarzik> not a whole lot of new businesses appearing, if you exclude all mining-related stuff
2211 2011-03-15 18:14:13 <BlueMatt> I think we need a huge push for businesses
2212 2011-03-15 18:14:19 <jgarzik> agree
2213 2011-03-15 18:14:48 <molecular> xelister, I don't know how many blocks on testnet. my node says 10893, blockexplorer/testnet says 10893 also
2214 2011-03-15 18:15:33 <molecular> BlueMatt, weirdness continues: node says 0 connections, but the "2/offline?" changed to "7 confirmations". pffff
2215 2011-03-15 18:15:50 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
2216 2011-03-15 18:15:52 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113633 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1278 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 14 hours, 32 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 63850.46844569
2217 2011-03-15 18:16:05 <midnightmagic> whoah
2218 2011-03-15 18:16:46 <BlueMatt> molecular: wow...wtf
2219 2011-03-15 18:17:12 <BlueMatt> molecular: ok this needs some serious debugging...
2220 2011-03-15 18:17:57 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: IPv6 testnet?
2221 2011-03-15 18:18:02 <molecular> yeah. maybe we could make an rpc call to list all connections (in/out, ip, age)? would help a lot to observe what's going on?
2222 2011-03-15 18:18:22 <BlueMatt> molecular: or just use a debugger to dump memory and do some looking ;)
2223 2011-03-15 18:18:31 * molecular is still trying to get his system ready to compile bitcoin ;(
2224 2011-03-15 18:18:47 <molecular> BlueMatt, that seems cumbersome to me
2225 2011-03-15 18:18:49 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: what about it? molecular is testing dynamic IP change -> silent network disconnect bug
2226 2011-03-15 18:18:59 <molecular> did I just say cumbersome... is that even a word?
2227 2011-03-15 18:19:14 <BlueMatt> molecular: well a real debugger lets you see variable values, not just memory dumps
2228 2011-03-15 18:19:42 <molecular> hmm, will start with sth easier: compile bitcoin, lol
2229 2011-03-15 18:20:39 <BlueMatt> molecular: Ill do some real debugging when I get the chance (not that Im at all talented at C++ debugging or know enough about bitcoin's structure) but hell if I look long enough I will eventually find the problem ;)
2230 2011-03-15 18:21:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: how is the IPv6 stuff going btw?
2231 2011-03-15 18:21:06 * midnightmagic wishes fervently to be able to destroy account names due to idiotic mispellings..
2232 2011-03-15 18:21:07 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: havnt looked in a while
2233 2011-03-15 18:21:12 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: I fixed it enough that it works with IPv4 :p
2234 2011-03-15 18:21:30 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: well thats the first step I guess
2235 2011-03-15 18:23:27 <Diablo-D3> http://i.imgur.com/peudc.png
2236 2011-03-15 18:23:32 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2237 2011-03-15 18:23:33 <gribble> 113635
2238 2011-03-15 18:23:50 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: oh god...
2239 2011-03-15 18:24:33 AAA_awright_ has joined
2240 2011-03-15 18:26:17 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2241 2011-03-15 18:26:35 <molecular> BlueMatt, I will try to be of help, but first I need compilable sources so I can insert some printf or whatever
2242 2011-03-15 18:27:14 <BlueMatt> molecular: haha yea that would be kinda important...
2243 2011-03-15 18:33:20 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2244 2011-03-15 18:33:20 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
2245 2011-03-15 18:33:29 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2246 2011-03-15 18:37:18 <genjix> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12743404
2247 2011-03-15 18:37:22 <genjix> this makes me so mad
2248 2011-03-15 18:37:33 <genjix> nobody has access to this blacklist
2249 2011-03-15 18:37:42 <genjix> but "think of the children"!
2250 2011-03-15 18:37:58 <ArtForz> dont't forget the fun period where they blocked wikipedia ;)
2251 2011-03-15 18:38:39 jrabbit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2252 2011-03-15 18:38:52 <BurtyB> genjix err say your an ISP and pay the 5K or whatever it is then you can look ;)
2253 2011-03-15 18:40:11 <genjix> "Originally formed to police suspected child pornography online, the IWF's remit was later expanded to cover racist and criminally obscene material."
2254 2011-03-15 18:40:11 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
2255 2011-03-15 18:40:19 <ArtForz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_killer
2256 2011-03-15 18:41:33 TD has joined
2257 2011-03-15 18:41:46 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2258 2011-03-15 18:42:09 <genjix> BurtyB: their blacklist is secret
2259 2011-03-15 18:42:11 <Zarutian> genjix: why they dont publish the blacklists as salted cryptographic hashes of the urls beats me.
2260 2011-03-15 18:42:16 <xelister> Diablo-D3: lol
2261 2011-03-15 18:42:18 <genjix> you have no rebate and it's unviewable.
2262 2011-03-15 18:42:48 <Zarutian> I think it would be better just switch altogether over to CurveCP
2263 2011-03-15 18:42:58 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation#Sex_stories
2264 2011-03-15 18:43:13 <genjix> look at this. somebody prosecuted for writing a "sex story"
2265 2011-03-15 18:43:24 <genjix> not even images, but a written work
2266 2011-03-15 18:43:31 <ArtForz> WTF
2267 2011-03-15 18:43:43 <lfm> Zarutian: what good would that do?
2268 2011-03-15 18:44:02 <BurtyB> genjix your not supposed to view it but there's nothing to stop you if you really wanted
2269 2011-03-15 18:44:10 <Zarutian> lfm: see http://curvecp.org/
2270 2011-03-15 18:44:43 <genjix> BurtyB: cool. i suppose that makes it ok then.
2271 2011-03-15 18:45:00 frewsxcv has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2272 2011-03-15 18:45:26 <BurtyB> genjix I didn't say that :)
2273 2011-03-15 18:45:26 <BlueMatt> Zarutian: what good does that do?
2274 2011-03-15 18:46:11 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
2275 2011-03-15 18:46:26 <phantomcircuit> BurtyB, even the ISPs dont have the list
2276 2011-03-15 18:46:46 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: how does that work?
2277 2011-03-15 18:46:47 <phantomcircuit> iirc it's a dns system
2278 2011-03-15 18:46:55 <ArtForz> kinda
2279 2011-03-15 18:47:05 <Zarutian> lfm: built in encryption and defense to man-in-the-middle attacks (there is a cryptographic hash or even a whole ecc-key of the host in its name so url pointing to something on http server hosted via curvecp)
2280 2011-03-15 18:47:12 <ArtForz> iirc it's dns + transparent proxy
2281 2011-03-15 18:47:36 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: god thats gotta take some BIG servers
2282 2011-03-15 18:47:39 <ArtForz> which is why it broke wikipedia editing for example
2283 2011-03-15 18:48:02 <ArtForz> as it looked like all WP edits were coming from the same IP (the filtering proxy)
2284 2011-03-15 18:48:14 <BlueMatt> that is fucked up
2285 2011-03-15 18:48:17 <Zarutian> BlueMatt: hard to censor when they cant even tell what is going over the connection and it would be rather easy to tunnel it over itself so ISPs cant even tell who you are commuting with indirectly.
2286 2011-03-15 18:48:38 <BlueMatt> Zarutian: have fun with that one
2287 2011-03-15 18:48:39 <BurtyB> phantomcircuit the url list is available to ISPs
2288 2011-03-15 18:48:46 <xelister> ArtForz: CurveCP ??
2289 2011-03-15 18:48:52 <phantomcircuit> BurtyB, you sure about that one
2290 2011-03-15 18:48:52 <ArtForz> no
2291 2011-03-15 18:48:53 <xelister> who ever invented that name is a moron
2292 2011-03-15 18:48:59 <ArtForz> xelister: lol
2293 2011-03-15 18:49:04 <xelister> and should be slapped for falseflag actions.
2294 2011-03-15 18:49:19 <BurtyB> phantomcircuit yes
2295 2011-03-15 18:49:35 <ArtForz> well, about as bad as TransmissionCP ;)
2296 2011-03-15 18:49:36 <BurtyB> (well ones that are members)
2297 2011-03-15 18:49:38 <xelister> CurveCP? :-I Me gusta?
2298 2011-03-15 18:49:56 <Zarutian> xelister: well the name is from eleptic curve crypto and CP from TCP (Transmission Control Protocol)
2299 2011-03-15 18:50:11 <xelister> Zarutian: I know.. but still
2300 2011-03-15 18:50:16 <Zarutian> xelister: no, most hackers arent good at nameing stuff
2301 2011-03-15 18:50:36 <BlueMatt> xelister: are you not used to terrible names yet? I mean look at the sites and/or apps you use every day
2302 2011-03-15 18:50:40 <ArtForz> yeah, it's a case of "I'm so not visiting that URL"
2303 2011-03-15 18:50:48 <xelister> CCP crypto controll protocol... ECIP .. eliptical cirve internet protocol...
2304 2011-03-15 18:51:00 <xelister> ArtForz: I opened it via tor just to be sure lol
2305 2011-03-15 18:51:29 <ArtForz> well, can't call it CCP, or the Chinese Communist Party might get angry ;)
2306 2011-03-15 18:51:43 <xelister> Christians Child Porn ... funny because it's true?
2307 2011-03-15 18:51:44 <Zarutian> when I am making something I am lieable to use the Final Fantasy Five Snes name generator. (There were so many characters/npcs that they couldnt fit their names into a SNES cart)
2308 2011-03-15 18:51:51 <xelister> >_>
2309 2011-03-15 18:52:07 <ArtForz> also, CCP is already taken by PPP compression
2310 2011-03-15 18:52:12 <genjix> CP = captain picard
2311 2011-03-15 18:52:15 <ArtForz> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1962
2312 2011-03-15 18:52:34 <xelister> I really hate whan idiots use term Captain Picard like that :( Picard was awesome.
2313 2011-03-15 18:52:36 <Zarutian> also Crowd Control Productions (the Icelandic game company that makes Eve Online)
2314 2011-03-15 18:52:44 Syke__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2315 2011-03-15 18:53:05 <ArtForz> what would'Ve been wrong with ECTCP ?
2316 2011-03-15 18:53:07 <genjix> xelister: captain janeway is better
2317 2011-03-15 18:53:29 <ArtForz> wait, also already taken
2318 2011-03-15 18:53:31 <ArtForz> fuck.
2319 2011-03-15 18:53:32 <xelister> lets rename it to ecTCP ?
2320 2011-03-15 18:53:33 eao has joined
2321 2011-03-15 18:54:00 <Zarutian> ArtForz: curvecp doesnt uses the same eleptic curve as ecc iirc. Something to do with how fast you do the crypto.
2322 2011-03-15 18:54:07 <genjix> How about Kurtombo?
2323 2011-03-15 18:54:15 <xelister> ArtForz: it should be like *TCP because then americanfags can't be like "omg cp is for what it think it is??" because of immedaite connection to TCP name. Or just *IP
2324 2011-03-15 18:54:27 <genjix> Kurbo = curve tombo = tomb = crypt like crypto
2325 2011-03-15 18:54:42 <xelister> Zarutian: indeed... isn't eliptical curve working on really big packets like 2^16 or something
2326 2011-03-15 18:54:47 <BlueMatt> genjix: how is that in any way better?
2327 2011-03-15 18:54:52 <Necr0s> STCP
2328 2011-03-15 18:54:57 <ArtForz> it is EC crypto
2329 2011-03-15 18:54:59 <genjix> has meaning and sounds foreign :)
2330 2011-03-15 18:55:16 <ArtForz> well, EC key agreement + symmetric crypto AFAICT
2331 2011-03-15 18:55:22 <xelister> also, EC seems resistant to quantum computers? same like SHA, and unlike rsa/dsa ?
2332 2011-03-15 18:55:26 <Zarutian> genjix: Kurbo rimes also with Turbo
2333 2011-03-15 18:55:49 <ArtForz> iirc EC is also vulnerable to a modified shors algorithm
2334 2011-03-15 18:55:49 <Zarutian> xelister: I do not know better ask on #crypto on this irc server.
2335 2011-03-15 18:55:52 <genjix> and...
2336 2011-03-15 18:56:01 <ArtForz> at least wikipedia says so ;)
2337 2011-03-15 18:56:10 <genjix> ahh awesome #crypto always wanted a chan like that.
2338 2011-03-15 18:56:11 <xelister> ArtForz: wtf
2339 2011-03-15 18:56:16 <xelister> lets all join #crypto
2340 2011-03-15 18:56:17 <lfm> why would it be better than ssl?
2341 2011-03-15 18:56:18 * xelister joins
2342 2011-03-15 18:56:24 <BlueMatt> xelister: AFAIK all known public/private key algorithms are vulnerable to some kind of modified shor's attack
2343 2011-03-15 18:56:39 <Zarutian> lfm: ssl has PKI issues.
2344 2011-03-15 18:56:49 <lfm> what pki?
2345 2011-03-15 18:56:56 <ArtForz> btw, ectcp would also be kinda bad
2346 2011-03-15 18:57:02 <lfm> what is pki?
2347 2011-03-15 18:57:10 <ArtForz> public key infrastructure
2348 2011-03-15 18:57:12 <Zarutian> lfm: among other things. PKI stands for Public Key Infrastructure.
2349 2011-03-15 18:57:21 <ArtForz> someone is gonna read it as ect-cp ...
2350 2011-03-15 18:57:23 frewsxcv has joined
2351 2011-03-15 18:57:23 frewsxcv has quit (Changing host)
2352 2011-03-15 18:57:23 frewsxcv has joined
2353 2011-03-15 18:58:05 <Zarutian> lfm: it is all about those cert chains you can see in browsers, revocation lists and such stuff.
2354 2011-03-15 18:58:09 <xelister> BlueMatt: that sucks balls
2355 2011-03-15 18:58:38 <ArtForz> though I guess ect + cp would be a interesting experiment, clockwork orange style
2356 2011-03-15 18:58:46 <BlueMatt> xelister: yea pretty much
2357 2011-03-15 18:58:56 <ArtForz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy
2358 2011-03-15 18:59:53 <Zarutian> lfm: basicly you pay Versizon or Ãawte or some such for a certificate that associates your domain name with a public key (plus info on when the cert expires and what revocation lists people should check to see if it is revoked and such things)
2359 2011-03-15 19:03:41 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2360 2011-03-15 19:03:55 molecular has joined
2361 2011-03-15 19:04:59 JohnnyFusion has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2362 2011-03-15 19:05:37 <jgarzik> http://www.bsdcan.org/2010/schedule/attachments/135_crypto1hr.pdf
2363 2011-03-15 19:05:40 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2364 2011-03-15 19:05:40 <jgarzik> seems to not like EC
2365 2011-03-15 19:05:57 chaord has joined
2366 2011-03-15 19:08:08 <xelister> jgarzik: we're at ##crypto
2367 2011-03-15 19:09:22 ColdWind_ has joined
2368 2011-03-15 19:10:43 validus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2369 2011-03-15 19:10:47 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2370 2011-03-15 19:12:02 <ArtForz> well, main problem with EC is the various patents covering efficient implementations
2371 2011-03-15 19:12:12 Spenvo has joined
2372 2011-03-15 19:12:48 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2373 2011-03-15 19:12:57 <ArtForz> which might be a reason why ossl has a *very* straightforward impl
2374 2011-03-15 19:15:02 xelister has joined
2375 2011-03-15 19:15:03 <xelister> unknown program eats up all hdd space like a motherfucker. How to see which one? Eats 5 mb/sec. hdd running out.
2376 2011-03-15 19:15:13 <ArtForz> iotop ?
2377 2011-03-15 19:15:36 <xelister> ArtForz: my 3 freenet instance are a bit masking the result lol
2378 2011-03-15 19:16:04 <ArtForz> I have my freenet node on a seperate box, to avoid the I/O bogging down anything important :P
2379 2011-03-15 19:16:13 <xelister> what option to sort by actuall hdd writes? best to given device
2380 2011-03-15 19:16:57 <phantomcircuit> xelister, ?
2381 2011-03-15 19:17:02 <phantomcircuit> literally type '?'
2382 2011-03-15 19:17:38 <xelister> ohhhh it seems it was freenet, that finished downloading and started writting to a Downloads/ dir hah... my bad.
2383 2011-03-15 19:17:46 <lfm> syslog?
2384 2011-03-15 19:17:47 <ArtForz> löl
2385 2011-03-15 19:17:59 validus has joined
2386 2011-03-15 19:18:57 Kiba` has joined
2387 2011-03-15 19:20:28 osearth_ has joined
2388 2011-03-15 19:20:57 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2389 2011-03-15 19:21:48 osearth has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2390 2011-03-15 19:22:18 ovatork_ has quit (Quit: ovatork_)
2391 2011-03-15 19:22:18 larsivi has joined
2392 2011-03-15 19:25:14 TD has joined
2393 2011-03-15 19:25:59 hippich has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2394 2011-03-15 19:26:14 hippich has joined
2395 2011-03-15 19:26:28 towerX is now known as tower
2396 2011-03-15 19:27:14 thnee has joined
2397 2011-03-15 19:27:38 <thnee> mac client just crashes when starting it :(
2398 2011-03-15 19:27:50 <thnee> 10.5 intel macbook early generation (first or second)
2399 2011-03-15 19:28:17 fimp has joined
2400 2011-03-15 19:29:25 <thnee> it's jumping for a while, firewall asks for allow, then quit unexpectedly
2401 2011-03-15 19:29:42 <phantomcircuit> thnee, ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
2402 2011-03-15 19:29:45 <quellhorst> have 5970 prices gone down?
2403 2011-03-15 19:29:45 <phantomcircuit> what's it say?
2404 2011-03-15 19:29:57 <phantomcircuit> quellhorst, iirc they've gone up
2405 2011-03-15 19:30:21 <lfm> 5970 isnt available any more
2406 2011-03-15 19:30:21 <quellhorst> phantomcircuit: as of how long ago?
2407 2011-03-15 19:30:36 <thnee> phantomcircuit: no ~/.bitcoin/ :S
2408 2011-03-15 19:30:38 <phantomcircuit> uh i checked last friday
2409 2011-03-15 19:30:49 <phantomcircuit> thnee, run from the cli and see what it says
2410 2011-03-15 19:31:18 <thnee> phantomcircuit: how do i run .app from cli?
2411 2011-03-15 19:31:30 <phantomcircuit> beats me
2412 2011-03-15 19:31:49 <lfm> bitcoin is not .app
2413 2011-03-15 19:31:59 <fimp> thnee: ,app is a directory, inside there's a binary you can run
2414 2011-03-15 19:32:30 <thnee> ah, command 'open path'
2415 2011-03-15 19:32:30 <lfm> wth who is distributing bitcoin as .app?
2416 2011-03-15 19:32:31 <thnee> oh ok
2417 2011-03-15 19:32:58 <fimp> the package from bitcoin.org for MacOSX cointains .app
2418 2011-03-15 19:33:29 <lfm> get .zip or .exe from bitcoin.org
2419 2011-03-15 19:33:39 <lfm> oh
2420 2011-03-15 19:33:40 <thnee> err
2421 2011-03-15 19:33:50 <lfm> osx phew
2422 2011-03-15 19:33:52 <fimp> not everyones on windows =)
2423 2011-03-15 19:34:04 <thnee> phantomcircuit, fimp: http://pastebin.com/D8QzzMiA
2424 2011-03-15 19:34:17 Syke has joined
2425 2011-03-15 19:35:38 <fimp> thnee: can't help you there, sorry
2426 2011-03-15 19:35:44 <phantomcircuit> thnee, apparently you dont have stdlibc installed
2427 2011-03-15 19:35:45 <phantomcircuit> so
2428 2011-03-15 19:35:55 <phantomcircuit> basically your problem is that apple sucks massive
2429 2011-03-15 19:35:59 <phantomcircuit> well you get the picture
2430 2011-03-15 19:36:17 <phantomcircuit> you can probably compile from source
2431 2011-03-15 19:36:18 <thnee> meh
2432 2011-03-15 19:36:31 <thnee> i have seen other applications that work on OS X
2433 2011-03-15 19:36:35 <thnee> so it can't be that bad
2434 2011-03-15 19:36:52 <thnee> so i cant just install stdlibc?
2435 2011-03-15 19:37:09 <BlueMatt> not really
2436 2011-03-15 19:37:20 <fimp> ah. i think you can install XCode from the macosx install dvd and it will include stdlibc
2437 2011-03-15 19:37:22 <thnee> so why is this .app even distributed?
2438 2011-03-15 19:37:26 <thnee> ah
2439 2011-03-15 19:37:28 jrabbit_ has joined
2440 2011-03-15 19:37:44 <fimp> xcode is several gigs though iirc
2441 2011-03-15 19:37:55 <thnee> yeah i wont be installing it tonight =)
2442 2011-03-15 19:38:31 has joined
2443 2011-03-15 19:38:35 <phantomcircuit> thnee, basically it's built against 10.6 and your 10.5 doesnt have the newer libSystem
2444 2011-03-15 19:38:45 <phantomcircuit> thnee, so the solution is to build from source
2445 2011-03-15 19:38:53 <fimp> i'm on 10.5 and it works
2446 2011-03-15 19:39:01 <thnee> phantomcircuit: which would also require xcode?
2447 2011-03-15 19:39:08 <phantomcircuit> fimp, then you have the newer version of libSystem installed
2448 2011-03-15 19:39:17 <phantomcircuit> thnee, you can probably just get the latest libSystem
2449 2011-03-15 19:39:22 <phantomcircuit> no idea how to do that though
2450 2011-03-15 19:39:24 TheAncientGoat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2451 2011-03-15 19:39:33 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2452 2011-03-15 19:41:48 <thnee> doesnt sound like a good idea
2453 2011-03-15 19:42:45 <phantomcircuit> to update your system?
2454 2011-03-15 19:42:49 <phantomcircuit> uh ok?
2455 2011-03-15 19:43:54 <fimp> should connecting to this irc channel give my bitcoin client more connections?
2456 2011-03-15 19:44:26 <phantomcircuit> fimp, wat?
2457 2011-03-15 19:44:46 <fimp> i read that bitcoin finds connections through this irc channel
2458 2011-03-15 19:44:51 <BlueMatt> fimp there is an irc channel on lfnet
2459 2011-03-15 19:45:01 <BlueMatt> but that is automatically connected to via the bitcoin client
2460 2011-03-15 19:45:13 <thnee> phantomcircuit: what do you mean? i have the latest updates for the operating system.. downloading something like libsystem separately doesnt seem to be readily available, and it sounds like it could break other things if i just put it in there manually
2461 2011-03-15 19:45:17 <BlueMatt> and doing anything manually on irc has nothing to do with peer
2462 2011-03-15 19:45:18 <fimp> I see
2463 2011-03-15 19:45:39 <fimp> BlueMatt: will I receive transactions faster with more connections?
2464 2011-03-15 19:45:40 <phantomcircuit> fimp, you say you're on 10.5 and it works?
2465 2011-03-15 19:45:46 <fimp> phantomcircuit: yes
2466 2011-03-15 19:45:48 <BlueMatt> fimp not really
2467 2011-03-15 19:46:20 <phantomcircuit> fimp, do you have /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib ?
2468 2011-03-15 19:46:27 <fimp> ok. i requested 0.05 from bitfaucet about 30 minutes ago, wondering when it may arrive
2469 2011-03-15 19:46:53 <midnightmagic> fimp: no, blocks are currently being found slowly because hashrate is dipping.
2470 2011-03-15 19:46:59 <fimp> phantomcircuit: yes
2471 2011-03-15 19:47:04 <midnightmagic> so you have to wait for someone to include your transaction in one of the blocks they mine.
2472 2011-03-15 19:47:15 <BlueMatt> fimp faucet has been having issues with time taken for a while now
2473 2011-03-15 19:47:23 <lfm> fimp so long as you have at least one good connection to the main net you should be fine, the extras are mainly for reliability in case of trouble
2474 2011-03-15 19:47:24 <phantomcircuit> thnee, do you have /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib ?
2475 2011-03-15 19:48:02 <fimp> ok, I see
2476 2011-03-15 19:48:12 <thnee> phantomcircuit: yes
2477 2011-03-15 19:48:17 <fimp> why is hashrate dipping? slow time of day?
2478 2011-03-15 19:48:39 <midnightmagic> no, some guy with what was either more than $400k of equipment, or a botnet, stopped mining when he was found out.
2479 2011-03-15 19:48:42 <phantomcircuit> thnee, in that case your problem is that OSX sucks cock and cant find a library that is there
2480 2011-03-15 19:48:50 <phantomcircuit> Expected in: /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib
2481 2011-03-15 19:49:16 <thnee> srsly wtf
2482 2011-03-15 19:49:16 <thnee> You must be an iOS or Mac Developer Program member to download Xcode 4 or you can purchase Xcode 4 from the Mac App Store.
2483 2011-03-15 19:49:25 <thnee> XCode costs money?!
2484 2011-03-15 19:49:30 <phantomcircuit> lol yes
2485 2011-03-15 19:49:30 <midnightmagic> anybody can be a developer.
2486 2011-03-15 19:49:32 <midnightmagic> just sign up.
2487 2011-03-15 19:49:36 <phantomcircuit> and it includes GPLd code also
2488 2011-03-15 19:49:36 <thnee> i have
2489 2011-03-15 19:49:36 <fimp> thnee: it's on your macosx install dvd which came with your computer
2490 2011-03-15 19:49:37 <midnightmagic> xcode doesn't cost any money.
2491 2011-03-15 19:49:42 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, it costs $100
2492 2011-03-15 19:49:45 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, er $99
2493 2011-03-15 19:49:51 <jgarzik> I'll be surprised if the faucet survives. I'm happy it's there, but I just don't think it's sustainable.
2494 2011-03-15 19:49:53 <midnightmagic> no, that's to put an app on an iphone.
2495 2011-03-15 19:50:08 <BlueMatt> no xcode costs money from apple via app store, it is however on your original install disk
2496 2011-03-15 19:50:10 <BlueMatt> for free
2497 2011-03-15 19:50:12 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, xcode is $5
2498 2011-03-15 19:50:18 <midnightmagic> xcode is free.
2499 2011-03-15 19:50:33 <thnee> fimp: but thats packed away somewhere... i only have a bed, a laptop, and a buch of boxes
2500 2011-03-15 19:50:43 <midnightmagic> just sign up for the developer connection or whatever they call it these days. used to be ADC.
2501 2011-03-15 19:50:46 <thnee> since i just moved and am renovating
2502 2011-03-15 19:50:47 <midnightmagic> which is free.
2503 2011-03-15 19:50:57 <thnee> midnightmagic: again, i have
2504 2011-03-15 19:51:05 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, it's $5 they recently changed it
2505 2011-03-15 19:51:11 <BlueMatt> check developer.apple.com see if you can still get it there (I havent downloaded xcode in a long time)
2506 2011-03-15 19:51:12 <thnee> and that is the message i get
2507 2011-03-15 19:51:44 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, as i said, $99/year http://developer.apple.com/programs/
2508 2011-03-15 19:52:04 <thnee> i "have to be a ios or mac developer" and both those programs cost 99$
2509 2011-03-15 19:52:13 <thnee> this is ridicilous
2510 2011-03-15 19:52:14 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: you used to be able to dl it without the cost, that is just app store and stuff
2511 2011-03-15 19:52:38 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yes, now the only way to get it is from the original install media or by paying $5
2512 2011-03-15 19:52:52 <BlueMatt> well that is retarded
2513 2011-03-15 19:52:57 <phantomcircuit> thnee, uh does osx come with objdump?
2514 2011-03-15 19:53:25 <thnee> objdump: command not found
2515 2011-03-15 19:53:33 <phantomcircuit> course not
2516 2011-03-15 19:53:51 fimp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2517 2011-03-15 19:54:10 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no average user needs that, and apple wont bundle it unless the user needs it (ok well that is not a rule, but dont bet on it unless...)
2518 2011-03-15 19:54:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, then why is there a cli at all?
2519 2011-03-15 19:55:03 <BlueMatt> I should have stated it as "dont count on it unless..."
2520 2011-03-15 19:55:35 <forrestv> is there any writing about the bitcoin p2p network topology? how does it ensure that it's well connected and spread ...
2521 2011-03-15 19:55:39 <thnee> phantomcircuit: it's just for looks
2522 2011-03-15 19:55:46 <thnee> so it'll all unixy and cool
2523 2011-03-15 19:55:52 <thnee> look*
2524 2011-03-15 19:56:29 <BlueMatt> forrestv: that is a current problem...the client only connects to 8 random nodes and then tries to always keep 8 outgoing connections open, beyond that it just accepts incoming
2525 2011-03-15 19:56:30 fimp has joined
2526 2011-03-15 19:56:32 <phantomcircuit> forrestv, mostly by restricting each peer to a unique /16
2527 2011-03-15 19:56:58 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: only true for outgoing connections
2528 2011-03-15 19:57:09 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol im aware
2529 2011-03-15 19:57:11 <midnightmagic> iOS university program is free. XCode is still free.
2530 2011-03-15 19:57:15 <forrestv> oh..
2531 2011-03-15 19:57:26 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: sorry really wrote it to point it out to forrestv
2532 2011-03-15 19:57:56 <thnee> phantomcircuit: well.. at least it shouldnt say that it works with 10.5 on the website if it is built agaisnt 10.6 =)
2533 2011-03-15 19:58:01 <thnee> thanks for your help
2534 2011-03-15 19:58:02 <midnightmagic> i wonder if my os/x has xcode 4 on it.. hrm.
2535 2011-03-15 19:58:09 <thnee> i'll wait till im bck on windows
2536 2011-03-15 19:58:23 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, so if you're already spending mondo bucks on school you can get some free apple stuff?
2537 2011-03-15 19:58:48 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, by that logic windows office and visual studio are all free too
2538 2011-03-15 19:58:59 <midnightmagic> i guess i'm lucky
2539 2011-03-15 19:59:05 <thnee> school is free here :D
2540 2011-03-15 19:59:20 <midnightmagic> i don't pay for higher education, family works at various higher education institutions.
2541 2011-03-15 19:59:54 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, hint you are you jsut dont know it
2542 2011-03-15 19:59:55 <thnee> how does that make you not have to pay?
2543 2011-03-15 20:01:28 <midnightmagic> I'm not attending classes
2544 2011-03-15 20:01:54 <phantomcircuit> thnee, you dont pay if your parents work for the school in most places
2545 2011-03-15 20:02:02 Bosma has joined
2546 2011-03-15 20:02:03 <phantomcircuit> however they tend to pay people less
2547 2011-03-15 20:02:07 <midnightmagic> kinda not really into this conversation at the moment, sorry if it's a bit fractured at my end
2548 2011-03-15 20:02:24 <miner_> is deepbit.net down for anyone else?
2549 2011-03-15 20:02:25 <thnee> that sounds very unfair
2550 2011-03-15 20:03:00 <phantomcircuit> thnee, why?
2551 2011-03-15 20:03:03 <thnee> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/deepbit.net
2552 2011-03-15 20:03:16 <miner_> ahhh, cool, didn't know about that service
2553 2011-03-15 20:03:25 <miner_> thanks
2554 2011-03-15 20:03:58 <fimp> if I create a new address, bitcoins sent to me to the old address will still reach me, right?
2555 2011-03-15 20:04:11 <phantomcircuit> yes so long as you have the wallet
2556 2011-03-15 20:04:15 <thnee> miner_: here is another one for you http://lmgtfy.com/?q=down+for+everone
2557 2011-03-15 20:04:27 <thnee> JK 8)
2558 2011-03-15 20:05:08 <forrestv> BlueMatt, phantomcircuit, know about any improvements that are being thought of?
2559 2011-03-15 20:05:27 <forrestv> (i'm writing a service kind of similar to bitcoin)
2560 2011-03-15 20:06:27 <forrestv> i was thinking of something like what kademlia does - a unique id used as a location, and prefer peers closer to it
2561 2011-03-15 20:07:04 <phantomcircuit> forrestv, there is a discussion of the problem of peer isolation on the forum
2562 2011-03-15 20:07:28 <forrestv> ah, i'll check it out
2563 2011-03-15 20:07:35 <phantomcircuit> basically it depends on your confidence level and how long many blocks you require before confirming a tx
2564 2011-03-15 20:09:13 Bth8 has joined
2565 2011-03-15 20:10:24 <phantomcircuit> forrestv, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4335.0
2566 2011-03-15 20:15:33 <BlueMatt> forrestv: really, that is one of the largest remaining problems on the bitcoin network itself (other issues like acceptance etc aside) if you do come up with a better way to do it, please share
2567 2011-03-15 20:16:26 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
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2570 2011-03-15 20:22:37 Beremat has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
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2572 2011-03-15 20:23:56 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2573 2011-03-15 20:24:12 <jgarzik> woo!
2574 2011-03-15 20:24:17 <jgarzik> a bunch of new toys in bitcoin.git
2575 2011-03-15 20:24:56 <jgarzik> sendmany RPC command, DNS seeding, most of the other outstanding pull requests
2576 2011-03-15 20:25:03 Bth8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2577 2011-03-15 20:25:31 <jgarzik> BlueMatt's -logtimestamps patch
2578 2011-03-15 20:25:34 <gavinandresen> yup, pulled them this morning after running them successfully on the faucet bitcoinds for 24 hours
2579 2011-03-15 20:26:11 <BlueMatt> you pulled my timestamp patch?
2580 2011-03-15 20:26:15 <jgarzik> hopefully pool servers (hi [Tycho], slush) will upgrade, and start using sendmany :)
2581 2011-03-15 20:26:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yep
2582 2011-03-15 20:26:51 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: jgarzik uh...ok someone else said they were redoing the logging mechanism and I though we would wait for that, but whatever
2583 2011-03-15 20:27:07 <slush> jgarzik: sure
2584 2011-03-15 20:27:07 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: nope, see (jhylpo?) comments
2585 2011-03-15 20:27:19 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok, well mustve missed that comment
2586 2011-03-15 20:28:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/91
2587 2011-03-15 20:28:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: oh, thanks sorry for not having read that close enough
2588 2011-03-15 20:28:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: "shy patch from hal" is a lame commit msg, though :)
2589 2011-03-15 20:29:21 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: guilty as charged
2590 2011-03-15 20:29:44 <[Tycho]> Hello.
2591 2011-03-15 20:30:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: forward progress questions... do we have a checklist for lightweight client mode? is expiring spent transactions, in the local db, orthogonal to that effort?
2592 2011-03-15 20:31:28 <gavinandresen> no checklist-- the work is grab the headersonly branch, then figure out what needs to be done... let me dig out the email from satoshi...
2593 2011-03-15 20:33:53 MattJD has joined
2594 2011-03-15 20:34:53 * jgarzik is continually tempted to work on python lightweight client instead. must. resist. temptation.
2595 2011-03-15 20:35:16 <jgarzik> nobody's done script verification in python yet (publicly), have they?
2596 2011-03-15 20:35:18 MJD has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2597 2011-03-15 20:35:18 nevezen has joined
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2600 2011-03-15 20:37:02 forrestv has joined
2601 2011-03-15 20:37:10 <genjix> jgarzik: oh oh
2602 2011-03-15 20:37:14 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: http://pastebin.com/UtQfUzjf
2603 2011-03-15 20:37:28 <gavinandresen> (pastebin screwed up formatting, but anway)
2604 2011-03-15 20:37:38 <genjix> jgarzik: i thought about scrapping the json-rpc to add my own python hooks
2605 2011-03-15 20:37:58 <genjix> you know that'd be a good way to replace bitcoin with python
2606 2011-03-15 20:38:08 <genjix> (swap components out for python ones slowly)
2607 2011-03-15 20:38:23 <midnightmagic> please dont
2608 2011-03-15 20:38:29 <genjix> why?
2609 2011-03-15 20:39:13 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2610 2011-03-15 20:39:30 <genjix> gavinandresen: is there a way to assign tickets to myself?
2611 2011-03-15 20:39:41 <midnightmagic> err.. sorry, I thought you were suggesting gavin do that. If you are doing it, I'll be a beta-tester if you like.
2612 2011-03-15 20:39:46 <jgarzik> I think python is perfect for a lightweight client, but we need the "heavy lifting pieces" such as block chain verification, switching to a stronger block chain (with all that implies about your own transactions becoming un-confirmed), transaction resending, etc. so far we have a lot of P2P network nodes that don't do much of anything :)
2613 2011-03-15 20:39:58 <gavinandresen> genjix: just add a comment saying you're working on the issue....
2614 2011-03-15 20:40:03 <genjix> kk
2615 2011-03-15 20:40:11 <genjix> well im working on encryption for wallets :p
2616 2011-03-15 20:40:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: java client stuff?
2617 2011-03-15 20:42:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I can see how a headers-only mode might work, but it seems like the major missing piece(s) involve verification, where you would recursively need to notice missing branches, and download them
2618 2011-03-15 20:42:10 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: as in java client stuff would be a good thin client its easily cross platform etc
2619 2011-03-15 20:42:20 <jgarzik> for right now, I guess we could be dumb and simply download the whole block, if a TX is missing
2620 2011-03-15 20:42:23 <jgarzik> that would be easy
2621 2011-03-15 20:42:33 <jgarzik> rather than fill in TXs piecemeal
2622 2011-03-15 20:42:50 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: that sounds much easier and how much do you really save by downloading just txes?
2623 2011-03-15 20:42:55 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I agree, but I'm just not a Java person :/
2624 2011-03-15 20:43:28 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yup. And assume that if a transaction to you is in a block then it is valid.
2625 2011-03-15 20:43:31 <jgarzik> in any case, as parrot indicates, bytecode platforms of all types are converging
2626 2011-03-15 20:44:01 <gavinandresen> (no need to check inputs, etc -- the miners will do that).
2627 2011-03-15 20:44:02 <jgarzik> so Java/Python/Ruby/Perl choice blurs
2628 2011-03-15 20:44:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: why not download block headers from a checkpoint?
2629 2011-03-15 20:44:09 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: true
2630 2011-03-15 20:44:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: ideally the default is downloading -only- headers
2631 2011-03-15 20:44:27 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: for lightweight
2632 2011-03-15 20:44:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I bet the code is simpler if you can assume that all block headers exist in blkindex.dat.
2633 2011-03-15 20:44:39 davex__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2634 2011-03-15 20:44:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yup
2635 2011-03-15 20:45:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea
2636 2011-03-15 20:45:19 tower has joined
2637 2011-03-15 20:45:26 <gavinandresen> ... and downloading just block headers should be very quick (assuming you're not validating the transactions in them)
2638 2011-03-15 20:45:31 <gavinandresen> (which you won't)
2639 2011-03-15 20:45:43 <BlueMatt> so for this to work a client downloads all block headers from a checkpoint hardcoded. It then checks a tx by getting full blocks all the way back to verify that tx is valid, or just dont verify?
2640 2011-03-15 20:45:49 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: will indexing the headers be quick? :)
2641 2011-03-15 20:46:45 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: it downloads block headers from the genesis block up to current block. Then, I assume, gets blocks as it normally does.
2642 2011-03-15 20:47:03 <gavinandresen> ... assuming 'it' is a new client.
2643 2011-03-15 20:47:19 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: something like that. the basic idea is to enable connect-netsync-disconnect clients that just want to manage a wallet, and periodically check for new TXs etc
2644 2011-03-15 20:47:37 <jgarzik> though I haven't figured that part out yet -- how to ask upstream for "your" TXs
2645 2011-03-15 20:47:39 <jgarzik> ?
2646 2011-03-15 20:47:55 tower is now known as towerX
2647 2011-03-15 20:48:08 towerX is now known as tower
2648 2011-03-15 20:48:09 <jgarzik> sending a list of public keys seems to give up a lot of privacy
2649 2011-03-15 20:48:45 gehel has joined
2650 2011-03-15 20:48:45 <lfm> jgarzik: so how is it different from mybiycoin.com or a site like it?
2651 2011-03-15 20:48:46 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I think satoshi's branch is 'lightweight until your first wallet transaction, then heavy for any blocks that contain tranactions to you" (and heavy for blocks you see when connected to the network)
2652 2011-03-15 20:48:50 <phantomcircuit> what are we talking about
2653 2011-03-15 20:48:55 <midnightmagic> i wonder if the shrinking difficulty has anything to do with the japanese power blackouts.
2654 2011-03-15 20:48:58 <lfm> mybitcoin
2655 2011-03-15 20:49:16 <jgarzik> lfm: this is talking about clients on the bitcoin P2P network itself
2656 2011-03-15 20:49:18 <midnightmagic> it would be interesting to do a correlation.
2657 2011-03-15 20:49:18 <gavinandresen> I'm talking about making initial bitcoin run less painful (waiting hours for blockchain to download sucks)
2658 2011-03-15 20:49:21 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: mostly the mysterious miner
2659 2011-03-15 20:49:36 gehel has quit (Client Quit)
2660 2011-03-15 20:49:39 <lfm> jgarzik: not really they need a special "host" still it seems
2661 2011-03-15 20:49:47 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: the MM stopped visibly mining on the 8th.
2662 2011-03-15 20:50:04 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: hardcode a bzip2 checksum for an archive containing blocks <= 105000, then HTTP download?
2663 2011-03-15 20:50:32 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, downloading the actual block chain shouldnt take very long, the expensive part is verifying all of the txs
2664 2011-03-15 20:50:35 <genjix> gavinandresen: how long would headers only downloads take?
2665 2011-03-15 20:50:44 <genjix> rather how much of the data does it cut out?
2666 2011-03-15 20:50:49 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: exactly.
2667 2011-03-15 20:50:50 <genjix> ~80%?
2668 2011-03-15 20:51:08 <gavinandresen> genjix: more than 80%, block headers are tiny.
2669 2011-03-15 20:51:15 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: unless you are on a cell network
2670 2011-03-15 20:51:17 <genjix> cool
2671 2011-03-15 20:51:24 <jgarzik> This patch was written to answer that question: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-initblocks
2672 2011-03-15 20:51:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, even then the block headers are pretty trivial
2673 2011-03-15 20:51:29 <jgarzik> imports block chain from local files
2674 2011-03-15 20:51:34 <jgarzik> zero network activity
2675 2011-03-15 20:51:37 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, shit my phoneis faster than my dsl
2676 2011-03-15 20:51:37 <genjix> so would you be able to bundle them with the download?
2677 2011-03-15 20:51:38 <jgarzik> 100% database I/O
2678 2011-03-15 20:52:24 <genjix> was that to my question?
2679 2011-03-15 20:52:25 <jgarzik> I think we should bundle the data with the download, call it "bitcoin-full-1.2.3.zip"
2680 2011-03-15 20:52:30 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: the whole p2p idea on a phone still bugs me, its just not a good idea...it puts too much strain on networks and such (plus apple and most carriers block apps that have p2p in use)
2681 2011-03-15 20:52:35 <lfm> to find txn you need block headers AND merkle trees
2682 2011-03-15 20:52:41 <genjix> jgarzik: agreed.
2683 2011-03-15 20:52:56 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yeah the real solution is a remote gui for a p2p node on the phone
2684 2011-03-15 20:53:03 <gavinandresen> genjix: bundling them with the download would make the download a little slower for anybody who already has them... and would mean complicated installation logic to put them in the right place but not replace something already there yada yada yada....
2685 2011-03-15 20:53:20 <gavinandresen> Step 1: implement it and see how quick it is.
2686 2011-03-15 20:53:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: hence -full
2687 2011-03-15 20:53:37 <genjix> compile it into the binary then.
2688 2011-03-15 20:53:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: bitcoin-1.2.3.tar.gz is software, bitcoin-full-1.2.3.tar.gz is software+chain
2689 2011-03-15 20:53:41 <gavinandresen> Step 2: if it is slow, figure out why. If it's not, there is no step 3....
2690 2011-03-15 20:53:45 <genjix> if it's not that big.
2691 2011-03-15 20:54:03 <lfm> genjix: those who are just upgrading dont need it
2692 2011-03-15 20:54:04 <BlueMatt> or just write the patch now with just downloading full block headers, then later deal with optimization of downloading blockchain better
2693 2011-03-15 20:54:06 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: uh-huh. p2p networks should be really good at distributing data....
2694 2011-03-15 20:54:25 <phantomcircuit> wat
2695 2011-03-15 20:55:01 <lfm> bluematt to find txn you need block headers AND merkle trees
2696 2011-03-15 20:55:22 <BlueMatt> lfm: that is what I meant but dont bother with merkle trees yet, just download full blocks when you need them
2697 2011-03-15 20:55:26 <gavinandresen> what's that famous quote about premature optimization?
2698 2011-03-15 20:55:49 <lfm> BlueMatt: block headers are useless then
2699 2011-03-15 20:55:53 <phantomcircuit> the best solution i can see to tx verification being so slow
2700 2011-03-15 20:56:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: well, our P2P network is raised largely at widely distributing small bits of data. that's different from a multi-megabyte, soon to be gigabyte, download. our P2P code is not good at all. we don't even employ simple techniques (imported from BT) such as attempting to download to a "closer" network neighbor, or benchmarking multiple peers and picking the best one.
2701 2011-03-15 20:56:29 <gavinandresen> anybody remember sizeof(block header) off the top of their head?
2702 2011-03-15 20:56:33 <jgarzik> 80
2703 2011-03-15 20:56:39 <BlueMatt> lfm: no, get block headers so that you know the block chain is valid then get individual blocks when you need them. Otherwise an attacker can insert a block which isnt valid which verifies their tx
2704 2011-03-15 20:56:39 <lfm> gavinandresen: 80
2705 2011-03-15 20:56:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, the real problem is that the node doesn't know what to ask for before it has the blocks right before it
2706 2011-03-15 20:56:54 <gavinandresen> 80 times 100,000 block is 8 megabytes, right?
2707 2011-03-15 20:57:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, so latency is more important than bandwidth
2708 2011-03-15 20:57:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yes
2709 2011-03-15 20:57:33 <lfm> BlueMatt: "when you need them" makes no sense. you cant find a txn to varify an input with only block headers
2710 2011-03-15 20:57:56 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: makes me wish for an on-disk, fixed-length array of block headers
2711 2011-03-15 20:58:07 <BlueMatt> lfm: I mean only STORE block headers, when a new block comes out or other system you download it and check if it has txes which apply to you
2712 2011-03-15 20:58:29 <midnightmagic> hey gavin, have you heard from Satoshi since the earthquakes?
2713 2011-03-15 20:58:30 <BlueMatt> lfm: but we have to decide exactly how to finx txes which apply to you first...probably full download for new blocks
2714 2011-03-15 20:58:42 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: been a bit longer than that...:(
2715 2011-03-15 20:58:42 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yep
2716 2011-03-15 20:58:50 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: which would suck if you haven't talked to the network for a week
2717 2011-03-15 20:58:55 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: full blocks x 1 week
2718 2011-03-15 20:58:55 <lfm> BlueMatt: sorry but thats useless. there is no reason to download blk headers without merkle tree
2719 2011-03-15 20:59:19 <BlueMatt> lfm: because you then dont have to verify every block coming down the network and it saves disk space
2720 2011-03-15 20:59:26 <gavinandresen> midnightmagic: yes, I got email from satoshi saturday.
2721 2011-03-15 20:59:28 <luke-jr_> ;;later tell MagicalTux might I suggest applying this to the wiki? http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Ref#Set_references_to_use_.5E_and_letters_like_Wikipedia
2722 2011-03-15 20:59:29 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2723 2011-03-15 20:59:38 <lfm> BlueMatt: to verify a new blk hdr all you need as the previous block
2724 2011-03-15 20:59:45 <BlueMatt> lfm: that is the whole point of a "thin" client which a lot of people have been asking for
2725 2011-03-15 20:59:54 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, total on disk size is negligible
2726 2011-03-15 21:00:06 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: wait, so you do still regularly hear from satoshi?
2727 2011-03-15 21:00:11 <lfm> blue but to verify any txn you would have to download onb average halh the merkle tree
2728 2011-03-15 21:00:12 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: ah good then. if you could, please consider passing along my sympathies. :(
2729 2011-03-15 21:00:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: sure.
2730 2011-03-15 21:00:33 <phantomcircuit> 59M Mar 1 12:35 debug.log
2731 2011-03-15 21:00:34 <phantomcircuit> lol
2732 2011-03-15 21:00:44 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: so why did he stop being in the forum and github?
2733 2011-03-15 21:01:13 <BlueMatt> lfm: phantomcircuit the point of a "thin" client is that you dont have to download the whole blocks for the entire chain and verify them. This saves a lot of time in the verification stage
2734 2011-03-15 21:01:19 <lfm> BlueMatt: I say a thin client is no better than a web browser connecting to mybitcoin.com
2735 2011-03-15 21:01:30 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: he's busy. And I think he's not so much a "people person" .... and maybe using the forums over tor is annoying. I don't know.
2736 2011-03-15 21:01:47 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: but why no github?
2737 2011-03-15 21:01:58 <lfm> BlueMatt: note the merkle tree is not the full txns
2738 2011-03-15 21:02:01 <luke-jr_> cuz github sucks? :p
2739 2011-03-15 21:02:31 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yeah, I think github's requirement that you not use a pseudonym might cause satoshi some issues. Maybe. assuming satoshi isn't his or her or their real name.
2740 2011-03-15 21:02:44 * luke-jr_ holds out hope that perhaps Satoshi will push wxBitCoin over to the free-and-reasonable Gitorious
2741 2011-03-15 21:03:02 <luke-jr_> gavinandresen: how do they define pseudonym?
2742 2011-03-15 21:03:20 <midnightmagic> luke-jr_: that's probably a question you can dig up yourself bro.
2743 2011-03-15 21:03:26 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: github terms of service says you have to register with your real name iirc
2744 2011-03-15 21:03:39 <lfm> so lie
2745 2011-03-15 21:03:43 <luke-jr_> midnightmagic: the commonplace definition is not applicable to legal stuff
2746 2011-03-15 21:03:53 <luke-jr_> gavinandresen: at least US law allows you to change real name at will
2747 2011-03-15 21:04:18 <gavinandresen> luke-jr: yup, I went through that process....
2748 2011-03-15 21:04:23 <luke-jr_> no process required
2749 2011-03-15 21:04:28 * gavinandresen aka gavinbell
2750 2011-03-15 21:04:38 <BlueMatt> lfm: ok the point isnt really anything to do with saved space but saved download size and saved time verifying the blocks. Why download the whole block chain txes unless you need to verify an individual tx. Yes the downloading of a merkle branch saves some space, but if I dont bother downloading txes and just get headers I save space and time verifying the txes. Also, in the long run merkle branches will be used but for now downloading a who
2751 2011-03-15 21:04:38 <BlueMatt> le block that contains the txes you want to verify is just as easy
2752 2011-03-15 21:04:44 <midnightmagic> i am herewith to be known as Art Bell.
2753 2011-03-15 21:04:57 <midnightmagic> luke-jr_: no process required?!
2754 2011-03-15 21:05:02 <BlueMatt> I think I might make a set of virtualbox images to build bitcoin or atleast on windows
2755 2011-03-15 21:05:05 <luke-jr_> midnightmagic: not if you jsut want to change your name
2756 2011-03-15 21:05:25 <luke-jr_> the Constitution guarantees the civil right to "sue or be sued under any name"
2757 2011-03-15 21:05:30 <lfm> BlueMatt: the ONLY way to verify ANY txn is to find the input txn and the only way to find the input txn is from the merkle tree hashes
2758 2011-03-15 21:05:31 TheKid has joined
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2760 2011-03-15 21:05:31 TheKid has joined
2761 2011-03-15 21:05:48 <luke-jr_> midnightmagic: now if you want to *force others* to call you by your new name, that requires a court order
2762 2011-03-15 21:05:49 <midnightmagic> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change#Informal_methods_of_legal_name_change well.. how about that.
2763 2011-03-15 21:05:59 <BlueMatt> lfm: yes, when you verify a tx you get the merkle tree (ie block) for all txes leading up to that one
2764 2011-03-15 21:06:35 <lfm> BlueMatt: you cant just find the right merkle tree, you need them all
2765 2011-03-15 21:06:44 <BlueMatt> lfm: not true
2766 2011-03-15 21:06:56 <thnee> phantomcircuit: FYI ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin
2767 2011-03-15 21:07:08 <BlueMatt> lfm: each block has one independent merkle tree, correct?
2768 2011-03-15 21:07:13 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: or you can trust any block over 6 old is trustworthy
2769 2011-03-15 21:07:21 <lfm> BlueMatt: yes
2770 2011-03-15 21:07:26 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: but that is probably not a good idea
2771 2011-03-15 21:07:35 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: why not?
2772 2011-03-15 21:07:56 <thnee> phantomcircuit, fimp: http://pastebin.com/hYzVidYq
2773 2011-03-15 21:08:11 gilicorn has joined
2774 2011-03-15 21:08:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: especially in a thin connect-download-disconnect node which might not get more than a couple connections could be more susceptible to sybil
2775 2011-03-15 21:09:12 <BlueMatt> lfm: so if you get the block that has the txes which lead to the one you want to verify, you get those merkle trees which are verified by the block header chain. The trees verify the appropriate txes
2776 2011-03-15 21:09:17 <luke-jr_> BlueMatt: that would be a wallet, not a node, and should only connect to a trusted node ;)
2777 2011-03-15 21:09:18 <BlueMatt> lfm: hence your tx is verified
2778 2011-03-15 21:09:53 <lfm> BlueMatt: there is no way to tell what block a txn is in without already having its merkle tree
2779 2011-03-15 21:09:58 <BlueMatt> luke-jr_: ok fair enough you could trust old blocks, but in implementation of a thin client that is not any different than not trusting them
2780 2011-03-15 21:10:08 <BlueMatt> lfm: hence you download the block which includes its merkle tree
2781 2011-03-15 21:10:19 <BlueMatt> lfm: oh no excuse me...wait
2782 2011-03-15 21:10:37 <lfm> BlueMatt: which block tho, you dont know which block to fetch
2783 2011-03-15 21:11:14 <gilicorn> greets
2784 2011-03-15 21:11:14 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2785 2011-03-15 21:11:27 <BlueMatt> wait ok, gavinandresen jgarzik how would this work if you cant tell which block a txes input is in?
2786 2011-03-15 21:11:49 TheKid has joined
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2788 2011-03-15 21:11:49 TheKid has joined
2789 2011-03-15 21:11:51 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-252-41-51.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
2790 2011-03-15 21:12:03 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it wont
2791 2011-03-15 21:12:27 <BlueMatt> so...why are people putting work into a thin client if you cant make a thin client?
2792 2011-03-15 21:12:31 <gavinandresen> Yup, but you don't care if you are a new user who hasn't received any bitcoins from anywhere yet.
2793 2011-03-15 21:12:58 <TheKid> I missed stuff
2794 2011-03-15 21:13:01 <AAA_awright> luke-jr_: No one can force me to use any name... If I want to change the name the government uses, is at issue. And usually companies need to use that the govt uses for such legal reasons.
2795 2011-03-15 21:13:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: but you have to verify that a tx you get has an input which is valid which means tracing it back through the block chain?
2796 2011-03-15 21:13:07 <lfm> BlueMatt: you would have to ask the server to look up a txn hash first and reply with a block number
2797 2011-03-15 21:13:11 <TheKid> can someone quick summarize why a thin client won't work?
2798 2011-03-15 21:13:20 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: you can rely on the miners to validate.
2799 2011-03-15 21:13:30 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ... as you always do, actually.
2800 2011-03-15 21:13:38 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ah, so thin clients DONT validate txes?
2801 2011-03-15 21:13:45 <BlueMatt> or more specifically tx inputs
2802 2011-03-15 21:14:16 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: right. They just accept new blocks. If they want to become miners, then they need to start downloading blocks they're missing.
2803 2011-03-15 21:14:22 <luke-jr_> AAA_awright: wrong. for legal purposes, you can be forced to use a specific name to refer to a specific entity.
2804 2011-03-15 21:14:52 <luke-jr_> AAA_awright: eg, if you sue me as "Joe Random Idiot", I can insist the lawsuit be changed to "Luke Dashjr"
2805 2011-03-15 21:14:58 <AAA_awright> luke-jr_: I'm calling you luke-jr_, wanna challenge that? Who wants to throw me in jail?
2806 2011-03-15 21:14:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: oh, dam I thought thin clients would be able to validate txes (which they could if txes contained blocks for their inputs) seems like a design oversight
2807 2011-03-15 21:15:02 luke-jr_ is now known as luke-jr
2808 2011-03-15 21:15:04 <lfm> no way to check your balance then really
2809 2011-03-15 21:15:19 <phantomcircuit> however if each block was modified to include an account of all btc in the network and blocks were rejected for getting it wrong...
2810 2011-03-15 21:15:29 <AAA_awright> luke-jr: Because that's the government. I'm not the government.
2811 2011-03-15 21:15:40 <AAA_awright> I am *proudly* not the government
2812 2011-03-15 21:15:44 <phantomcircuit> that would make it so you just had to verify the block chain
2813 2011-03-15 21:15:48 <mizerydearia> http://intellectualproperty.witcoin.com/p/467/power-tools-and-the-morality-of-copyright#r-828
2814 2011-03-15 21:16:05 <mizerydearia> Kiba`, thanks? in what way does it seem self-sustaining?
2815 2011-03-15 21:16:06 <lfm> BlueMatt: just assume any txn output more than n blocks old is valid on its outputs, assume inputs have been validated
2816 2011-03-15 21:16:47 <BlueMatt> lfm: ok thats great, but Id feel a lot better if you could validate tx inputs (which really wouldnt be too hard)
2817 2011-03-15 21:17:12 <Kiba`> mizerydearia: posting activities are regular
2818 2011-03-15 21:17:47 <lfm> BlueMatt: just a question of how deep you want to probe but I think you would want the merkle trees
2819 2011-03-15 21:17:57 <BlueMatt> though changing the protocol would be hard
2820 2011-03-15 21:18:17 <BlueMatt> lfm: I agree, but youd have to have them all which would be a pita so not really "thin" anymore
2821 2011-03-15 21:18:25 <lfm> BlueMatt: essentially the merkle trees are 64 bytes per txn
2822 2011-03-15 21:18:55 doublec has joined
2823 2011-03-15 21:19:09 <BlueMatt> lfm: the only difference between "thin" and "normal" would then be if you actually take the time to verify each tx or just when a new tx comes in
2824 2011-03-15 21:19:26 <gavinandresen> The problem I want solved soon is just that it takes way too long for new users to get their free bitcoins from the Faucet :-) (if they're not using mybitcoin)
2825 2011-03-15 21:19:48 <lfm> BlueMatt: which gets back to my point, if you trust your "server" to verify the txns inputs for you then you might just as well use mybitcoin.com
2826 2011-03-15 21:19:58 <Necr0s> How large does a wallet file typically get?
2827 2011-03-15 21:19:59 <gavinandresen> ... and after solving that, fetching merkle branches or expressing interest in a set of transactions or whatever would be nifty optimizations.
2828 2011-03-15 21:20:36 <lfm> Necr0s: it grows without limit for each address
2829 2011-03-15 21:21:04 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the best way I see to do that, without any huge work or without any protocol changes would be to simply not verify txes in each block downloaded and only verify a tx history when a new tx comes in which needs it
2830 2011-03-15 21:21:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: obviously you would retool the db to add a flag which marks txes as verified
2831 2011-03-15 21:21:28 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,calc 130000
2832 2011-03-15 21:21:29 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 130000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 4 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 15 minutes, and 12 seconds
2833 2011-03-15 21:21:35 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,gen 130000
2834 2011-03-15 21:21:37 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 130000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 1.71611595615 BTC per day and 0.0715048315062 BTC per hour.
2835 2011-03-15 21:21:51 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,gend 130000 [bc,estimate]
2836 2011-03-15 21:21:52 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 130000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 64481.23710721, is 2.02784089361 BTC per day and 0.084493370567 BTC per hour.
2837 2011-03-15 21:21:56 jostmey has left ()
2838 2011-03-15 21:22:01 <lfm> Necr0s: I have a wallet almost 5 MB but it may be larger then typical
2839 2011-03-15 21:22:21 <Necr0s> I see...
2840 2011-03-15 21:22:28 <Necr0s> I have one that has received BTC in 18 transactions (including generated ones), and it's 118K.
2841 2011-03-15 21:22:38 <Necr0s> I also have an empty one that's 114K.
2842 2011-03-15 21:22:51 <luke-jr> -rw------- 1 luke-jr luke-jr 1.2M Mar 15 14:33 wallet.dat
2843 2011-03-15 21:23:06 <luke-jr> -rw------- 1 bitcoinpool bitcoinpool 96K Mar 11 22:02 wallet.dat
2844 2011-03-15 21:23:07 <Necr0s> It's a BDB database?
2845 2011-03-15 21:23:11 <lfm> Necr0s: afaik they only get bigger, never smaller
2846 2011-03-15 21:23:25 <lfm> Necr0s: I think so yes
2847 2011-03-15 21:23:27 <Necr0s> That's what 'file' identifies it as.
2848 2011-03-15 21:23:46 <gavinandresen> I bet I've got the biggest wallet: -rw-r----- 1 bitcoin bitcoin 225M Mar 15 21:20 wallet.dat
2849 2011-03-15 21:24:00 <BlueMatt> faucet?
2850 2011-03-15 21:24:00 <phantomcircuit> lfm, although you could drop addresses with zero balances that aren't expecting new transactions
2851 2011-03-15 21:24:01 <Necr0s> Good lawd.
2852 2011-03-15 21:24:07 <gavinandresen> Yup, that's the faucet
2853 2011-03-15 21:24:49 <Necr0s> Could that all be consolidated by sending all of them to a new address?
2854 2011-03-15 21:24:59 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, dear lord why is that so big
2855 2011-03-15 21:25:00 <Necr0s> Or would the receiving wallet end up just as large?
2856 2011-03-15 21:25:21 <lfm> phantomcircuit: every faucet txn creates a "change" address new
2857 2011-03-15 21:25:28 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: because it is constantly generating new change addresses as it shaves of 0.06 BTC
2858 2011-03-15 21:25:36 <phantomcircuit> oh
2859 2011-03-15 21:25:48 <phantomcircuit> why not just send it back to the original address?
2860 2011-03-15 21:25:55 <gavinandresen> I've been thinking about implementing an optional 'changepool' to send change to a revolving set of keys to prevent wallet inflation
2861 2011-03-15 21:26:07 <phantomcircuit> you dont need a change address for the faucet
2862 2011-03-15 21:26:11 <lfm> phantomcircuit: just fro more annonymity I think
2863 2011-03-15 21:26:16 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: how big a difference would it make to just verify txes at new-tx time instead of at download time? isnt that the biggest time suck when downloading the chain?
2864 2011-03-15 21:26:29 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: WRT that 'Spanish translation' pull request... I would not recommend pulling the binary, unreviewable *.mo generated language files. Standard tools can generate *.mo from *.po, so a po-only pull request seems more safe.
2865 2011-03-15 21:26:34 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: if I sent it to the wallet address it would be harder to see how many donations the faucet has had.
2866 2011-03-15 21:26:45 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, uh so?
2867 2011-03-15 21:26:48 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: good point
2868 2011-03-15 21:26:52 <lfm> BlueMatt: since txn can have huge fan out it could take a long time
2869 2011-03-15 21:27:11 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: so, I like to know how many bitcoins are being donated to the faucet, and blockexplorer makes that easy to figure out.
2870 2011-03-15 21:27:37 <BlueMatt> lfm: yea, but that is better than verifying EACH tx when you download them
2871 2011-03-15 21:27:48 <lfm> not really
2872 2011-03-15 21:27:49 <BlueMatt> lfm: at least from a point of view of "I havent gotten my faucet coins yet"
2873 2011-03-15 21:27:51 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, ok then
2874 2011-03-15 21:27:55 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, a trade off
2875 2011-03-15 21:28:09 <lfm> BlueMatt: thats not why the txn are delayed
2876 2011-03-15 21:28:20 <BlueMatt> lfm: for new users it is
2877 2011-03-15 21:28:41 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: FYI, "msgfmt" is the tool you use, to compile po -> mo
2878 2011-03-15 21:28:49 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: GNU gettext tools
2879 2011-03-15 21:29:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: sounds like a job for make
2880 2011-03-15 21:29:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yep
2881 2011-03-15 21:29:25 <gavinandresen> if only I knew how makefiles worked.....
2882 2011-03-15 21:29:41 <lfm> BlueMatt: new user have to wait for the block chain to download before they can receive txn like the faucet's? thats your reason for changing the whole process?
2883 2011-03-15 21:29:44 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so far, AFAICT, satoshi did it manually. so until that day, you'll need to 'msgfmt' and commit the result
2884 2011-03-15 21:29:45 <gavinandresen> (he says, hoping somebody will jump up and volunteer to do something he doesn't want to do)
2885 2011-03-15 21:29:49 <jgarzik> :)
2886 2011-03-15 21:29:55 fimp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2887 2011-03-15 21:30:08 [Tycho] has quit (Changing host)
2888 2011-03-15 21:30:08 [Tycho] has joined
2889 2011-03-15 21:30:11 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: autotools does not do this manually, although I might be able to get the gettext standard autotools makefile plugin to work ...
2890 2011-03-15 21:30:26 * jgarzik has autotools working for bitcoind (ie. the easy bit)
2891 2011-03-15 21:30:52 <gavinandresen> lfm: first impressions for any product are important. And downloading the block chain as a first impression of bitcoin is just... icky.
2892 2011-03-15 21:31:16 <BlueMatt> lfm: pretty much, what is the major advantage of a "thin" client other than shorter initial download times and maybe long term better storage? at least as a test we could see what kind of difference a small change like that could make
2893 2011-03-15 21:31:33 <jgarzik> bitcoin-full-0.3.21.zip solves that problem nicely, IMO
2894 2011-03-15 21:32:00 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2895 2011-03-15 21:32:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I agree
2896 2011-03-15 21:32:12 <jgarzik> other projects make such bundles. you can have gcc-all, or gcc-just-the-parts-you-want. ditto for mysql.
2897 2011-03-15 21:32:32 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: we need to retool dist anyway for bitcoin-x32 and bitcoin-x64
2898 2011-03-15 21:32:35 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: .zip? that mean: mkdir ~/.bitcoin; cp blkindex.dat ~/.bitcoin/; .....
2899 2011-03-15 21:33:05 andrew12 has quit (Changing host)
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2901 2011-03-15 21:33:10 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: oh btw, Ive been considering making a autobuild bitcoin nightly vm on my server downstairs...seem like a good idea?
2902 2011-03-15 21:33:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: absolutely, nightly builds are a great idea.
2903 2011-03-15 21:34:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: on windows, we should init database dir with block chain to 105000. on linux, I guess a script "bitcoin-initdb" could do that (which packaging scripts would run automatically, upon deb/rpm install)
2904 2011-03-15 21:34:22 <jgarzik> there are various solutions to handling shipped data
2905 2011-03-15 21:34:39 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: agree, nice idea
2906 2011-03-15 21:34:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well patching vmware just to run osx on vmware-server seems like a bad idea for stability (even if the patch I found claims to just be changing a flag in the binary) so it would probably just be linux/win32 but I might get around to it tomorrow
2907 2011-03-15 21:35:01 <lfm> BlueMatt: just there is a very small marginal value increase for your concept of a thin client over just using a browser to access mybitcoin.com. the effort to produce the thin client has to compete with the marginal improvment of the experience of the thin client over a zero download time for mybitcoin
2908 2011-03-15 21:35:49 <BlueMatt> lfm: I agree that for most people, mybitcoin is a MUCH better solution than a full client or thin client
2909 2011-03-15 21:37:02 Spenvo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2910 2011-03-15 21:37:38 <BlueMatt> lfm: but for the current group of anarchists/untrusting people in the community using mybitcoin is not an option
2911 2011-03-15 21:38:24 <lfm> BlueMatt: ya so the thin client utility is squeezed between the full client and mybitcoin. its to the point where I think its a waste of effort more profitably applied elsewhere. just my opinion
2912 2011-03-15 21:38:38 <BlueMatt> lfm: fair point
2913 2011-03-15 21:39:03 <gavinandresen> lfm: what's on your priority list
2914 2011-03-15 21:40:21 <lfm> good question.. give me a minute to think on it
2915 2011-03-15 21:42:08 jrabbit_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2916 2011-03-15 21:44:05 <gilicorn> are you a shark
2917 2011-03-15 21:44:13 <emeril> are you a wizard
2918 2011-03-15 21:44:41 <ArtForz> put that robe and wizard hat down.
2919 2011-03-15 21:45:16 <nanotube> <gavinandresen> The problem I want solved soon is just that it takes way too long for new users to get their free bitcoins from the Faucet :-) (if they're not using mybitcoin) <-- what about my idea of including a blockchain on sf.net downloads? snapshot at time of release?
2920 2011-03-15 21:45:39 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: IMO: making the RPC server (a) select-based or (b) thread-per-connection is important. A single-threaded queue of HTTP requests, and no HTTP 1.1 support, is not production-ready, IMO. I think the easiest path from current code is to create a thread right after accept(2) returns, but I've done no coding yet.
2921 2011-03-15 21:45:40 <BlueMatt> nanotube: jgarzik wants that, and I agree
2922 2011-03-15 21:45:42 <[Tycho]> What a unsuitable user... http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4495.0
2923 2011-03-15 21:46:47 <nanotube> BlueMatt: mm ok. well if there's broad demand, maybe it'll actually happen. :)
2924 2011-03-15 21:46:50 <nanotube> [Tycho]: haha yea
2925 2011-03-15 21:47:33 <gilicorn> bancor to bitcoin exchange rate = ?
2926 2011-03-15 21:47:40 <BlueMatt> nanotube: we might change distribution any way (well for linux) bitcoin-linux-x32-binary bitcoin-linux-x64-binary bitcoin-linux-source bitcoin-linux-withblockchain etc
2927 2011-03-15 21:47:48 <jgarzik> gilicorn: try #bitcoin-otc?
2928 2011-03-15 21:48:00 <BlueMatt> I say we, meaning people who actually have power are considering it
2929 2011-03-15 21:48:02 <genjix> gilicorn: or open one? software is free
2930 2011-03-15 21:48:05 <hippich> re mybitcoin - how i can contact them? 5 days passed since i emailed them regarding lost money
2931 2011-03-15 21:48:16 jrabbit_ has joined
2932 2011-03-15 21:48:17 crozewski has joined
2933 2011-03-15 21:48:18 <jgarzik> hippich: we don't know any more than you
2934 2011-03-15 21:48:27 <jgarzik> hippich: nobody knows who runs mybitcoin
2935 2011-03-15 21:48:43 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: wait, really?
2936 2011-03-15 21:48:46 <hippich> i see =) ok. at least it means that i am right about this =)
2937 2011-03-15 21:49:01 <genjix> right about what? are they a scam?
2938 2011-03-15 21:49:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: some anonymous Nevis corporation
2939 2011-03-15 21:49:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: dam I find out more every day
2940 2011-03-15 21:49:17 <hippich> about the fact that nobody know who is behind it.
2941 2011-03-15 21:49:23 <andrew12> Jeff Thinks I Should Change This, But To What?
2942 2011-03-15 21:49:28 <nanotube> BlueMatt: sure that'd work too. smaller dl for those who want it. also add a separate 'blockchain' dl for those who want just the chain without the binary, while you're at it.
2943 2011-03-15 21:49:47 <BlueMatt> nanotube: not up to me, talk to jgarzik and gavinandresen
2944 2011-03-15 21:50:20 <BlueMatt> nanotube: though I might add the ability to download the chain while Im doing nightly build scripts in the next couple days :)
2945 2011-03-15 21:50:45 <jgarzik> nanotube: that's what I've proposed: bitcoin-0.3.21.tar.gz and bitcoin-full-0.3.21.tar.gz. but gotta think about good install workflows that make sense for Windows and Linux users.
2946 2011-03-15 21:50:48 <crozewski> hey all. what exchange are most people using to purchase some bit coins?
2947 2011-03-15 21:50:59 <TheKid> ;;bc,mtgox
2948 2011-03-15 21:51:00 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8949,"low":0.8775,"vol":2518,"buy":0.875,"sell":0.879,"last":0.879}}
2949 2011-03-15 21:51:16 <TheKid> crozewski: so around .88 or so
2950 2011-03-15 21:51:26 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: for windows, the installer exe is always the best IMHO from there the option to download blockchain and such could be in the exe
2951 2011-03-15 21:51:29 <jgarzik> crozewski: mtgox and coinpal are popular
2952 2011-03-15 21:51:36 <jgarzik> crozewski: better question for #bitcoin-otc, though
2953 2011-03-15 21:51:50 <crozewski> cool. ok, gotcha. what does that channel focus on?
2954 2011-03-15 21:52:06 <jgarzik> crozewski: trading, market stuf, ...
2955 2011-03-15 21:52:15 <jgarzik> crozewski: there is also #bitcoin-discussion
2956 2011-03-15 21:52:36 <lfm> crozewski: I think most people use mtgox.com
2957 2011-03-15 21:52:39 <crozewski> thanks jgarzik
2958 2011-03-15 21:53:14 <gilicorn> my friend is opening a site bitcoin4sex.. buy hookers w/bitcoin
2959 2011-03-15 21:53:17 <gilicorn> would you go to such a site?
2960 2011-03-15 21:53:27 <dirtyfilthy> i'll take two! (half j/k)
2961 2011-03-15 21:53:34 <Netsniper> thier place or mine?
2962 2011-03-15 21:53:38 <hippich> so you will take one? =))))
2963 2011-03-15 21:53:38 <jgarzik> gilicorn: try #bitcoin-otc
2964 2011-03-15 21:53:46 <gilicorn> out-call or in-call, it's up to you
2965 2011-03-15 21:53:50 <Netsniper> i'll take 1.7634
2966 2011-03-15 21:54:04 <ColdWind_> can I get some with 0.05 BTC? ;)
2967 2011-03-15 21:54:07 <lfm> gilicorn: I wouldnt say so (at least not here in public!)
2968 2011-03-15 21:55:21 <lfm> ColdWind_: for 0.05 btc you can get a jpg of a hooker
2969 2011-03-15 21:57:07 <Netsniper> for free, you can get a jpg of lots of hookers at the smoking gun
2970 2011-03-15 21:59:48 <nanotube> jgarzik: yea, basically, as long as it would reduce complaints of long block chain dl. :)
2971 2011-03-15 22:00:46 <jgarzik> or maybe bitcoin-0.3.21.zip (client + data) and bitcoin-client-0.3.21.zip (client only)
2972 2011-03-15 22:01:12 <jgarzik> satoshi didn't like the bundling + immediate startup, though
2973 2011-03-15 22:01:22 <jgarzik> he preferred verification of the data
2974 2011-03-15 22:01:48 <kupo> lfm: you still run that dark pool?
2975 2011-03-15 22:01:49 <jgarzik> and he does have a point
2976 2011-03-15 22:01:53 <ArtForz> yes
2977 2011-03-15 22:01:59 JohnnyFusion has joined
2978 2011-03-15 22:02:09 <lfm> kupo never did
2979 2011-03-15 22:02:11 <ArtForz> so treat blk0001.dat like a peer source of blocks if you dont have a blkindex already
2980 2011-03-15 22:02:25 <jgarzik> yep -- that's why I wrote -initblocks
2981 2011-03-15 22:03:00 <ArtForz> shouldnt be less safe than downloading the block chain fro mthe first peer you come across
2982 2011-03-15 22:03:39 <nanotube> as long as the releases are signed by gavin, should be fine
2983 2011-03-15 22:04:10 <nanotube> that said, it should verify the block chain on first start anyway, just for good measure. (and to guard against corrupt downloads, since not every noob will be checking the file checksum)
2984 2011-03-15 22:04:20 <ArtForz> yep
2985 2011-03-15 22:04:36 <nanotube> s/not every noob will/every noob will not/ :)
2986 2011-03-15 22:05:29 <EvanR-work> not every noob wont not
2987 2011-03-15 22:05:39 <BlueMatt> 1% might
2988 2011-03-15 22:06:17 <lfm> the problem with making thinks foolproof is those fools can be so darn ingeneous
2989 2011-03-15 22:06:24 * jgarzik adds a bunch of seed node addresses to bitseed.xf2.org
2990 2011-03-15 22:06:27 <lfm> things
2991 2011-03-15 22:06:44 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: shame my ip is dynamic (bluematt.me)
2992 2011-03-15 22:06:49 ArtForz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2993 2011-03-15 22:07:16 <gilicorn> dr. noobles
2994 2011-03-15 22:08:15 * jgarzik is looking for a person or two to commit to running a server for at least 12 months, that does nothing but (a) use gavinandresen's bitcointools to read P2P addresses from a running bitcoin node, and (b) write a random selection of those addresses to a DNS zone file. If using djb's tinydns, the format is as easy as "+bitseed.example.com:127.0.0.1"
2995 2011-03-15 22:09:03 <BlueMatt> shame I dont have access to a good vps host (well dont feel like paying)
2996 2011-03-15 22:09:05 <jgarzik> or pick your selection of P2P node addresses
2997 2011-03-15 22:09:26 <validus> hmm
2998 2011-03-15 22:09:28 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: earn some bitcoins, and get one from MagicalTux's KalyHost :)
2999 2011-03-15 22:09:44 <BlueMatt> still costs money :)
3000 2011-03-15 22:09:51 <validus> if you still need in a few weeks ill do it, but im gettin ga new pc then and id hate to setup everything then have to take it down and redo it again
3001 2011-03-15 22:10:31 <validus> vps's can be cheap though as long as you filter out ones that dont go down
3002 2011-03-15 22:10:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: Id run it on my vm server but with a dynamic ip that gets reset once every 24 hours it would be a bit too unreliable...well down for 5 min/day
3003 2011-03-15 22:14:29 <kupo> lfm: gotcha
3004 2011-03-15 22:15:05 <dirtyfilthy> has anyone here brought vps for bitcoins?
3005 2011-03-15 22:16:46 <BlueMatt> dirtyfilthy: if you want to ask about buying/selling ask on #bitcoin-otc they typically can answer better
3006 2011-03-15 22:17:10 <doublec> jgarzik: I have a long term vps that can be used for that
3007 2011-03-15 22:17:35 <dirtyfilthy> BlueMatt: i just did that
3008 2011-03-15 22:18:00 <BlueMatt> dirtyfilthy: ah, sorry dont typically read that channel unless someone messages me
3009 2011-03-15 22:18:41 Kiv has joined
3010 2011-03-15 22:18:59 <jgarzik> doublec: cool!
3011 2011-03-15 22:23:48 jrabbit_ is now known as jrabbit
3012 2011-03-15 22:24:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: hum.. does the output of bitcointool's 'dbdump --address' print IPv4 addresses in correct order?
3013 2011-03-15 22:24:46 <jgarzik> byte order, that is
3014 2011-03-15 22:26:46 <doublec> is it safe to run bitcointool's with a running instance?
3015 2011-03-15 22:27:46 <jgarzik> 223.204.147.180:36128 (lastseen: Tue Mar 15 02:57:42 2011)
3016 2011-03-15 22:27:46 <jgarzik> 223.205.82.95:36128 (lastseen: Sun Mar 13 18:36:53 2011)
3017 2011-03-15 22:27:46 <jgarzik> 223.205.202.128:36128 (lastseen: Sun Mar 6 02:13:19 2011)
3018 2011-03-15 22:27:46 <jgarzik> 223.205.203.79:36128 (lastseen: Fri Mar 11 22:55:03 2011)
3019 2011-03-15 22:27:46 <jgarzik> 223.205.212.95:36128 (lastseen: Wed Mar 9 04:36:30 2011)
3020 2011-03-15 22:27:52 <jgarzik> "36128" is 8333, byte-swapped
3021 2011-03-15 22:28:10 <jgarzik> doublec: it doesn't appear so
3022 2011-03-15 22:31:20 ArtForz has joined
3023 2011-03-15 22:32:26 <ArtForz> fuck fucking hell fuck
3024 2011-03-15 22:32:46 <doublec> problems?
3025 2011-03-15 22:32:46 <soultcer> uh?
3026 2011-03-15 22:32:52 xg0d has joined
3027 2011-03-15 22:34:02 <ArtForz> looks like something with the main UPS is fucked
3028 2011-03-15 22:34:35 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I dunno if bitcointools dumps in the correct order... easy to fix if it doesn't. But last time I checked it couldn't dump addr.dat while bitcoin was running (has that changed?)
3029 2011-03-15 22:34:56 <ArtForz> running bypassed for now
3030 2011-03-15 22:35:41 <gilicorn> it took 30 minutes to find the last block
3031 2011-03-15 22:35:43 <gilicorn> intersting
3032 2011-03-15 22:35:54 <gavinandresen> (why is it the older i get the more I feel like King Arthur in The Holy Grail... "FIVE! "
3033 2011-03-15 22:35:58 <gavinandresen> (three sir)
3034 2011-03-15 22:36:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: in theory, multiple processes may access transactional db4 files at the same time, correctly and without corruption or interference. but I just tried, and it killed bitcoind :)
3035 2011-03-15 22:36:43 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I wonder if bitcointools initializes its full db4 environment properly
3036 2011-03-15 22:37:34 <gavinandresen> Might be better to teach ArtForz's half-node to talk to a dns server.
3037 2011-03-15 22:38:08 <jgarzik> true
3038 2011-03-15 22:38:13 <gavinandresen> I'll be back later...
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3040 2011-03-15 22:44:19 <ArtForz> okay, I have no clue how the fucking fuck this is possible
3041 2011-03-15 22:45:07 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: it seems like I hear more about people's UPSs causing problems than I do about people's UPSs saving them when the power goes out...
3042 2011-03-15 22:45:18 <ArtForz> main breaker in front of UPS tripped, UPS went on inverter, UPS went into emergency overload shutdown.
3043 2011-03-15 22:46:11 <ArtForz> it's a friggin 11kW UPS *rated* for 200% overload up to 60 seconds
3044 2011-03-15 22:46:29 <BlueMatt> then its meter is broke
3045 2011-03-15 22:46:46 <BlueMatt> god building wx on my vm server is slow
3046 2011-03-15 22:46:50 <gilicorn> 1 block took 30 minutes, then in the span of 10 minutes 4 blocks found??
3047 2011-03-15 22:46:52 <gilicorn> what is going on
3048 2011-03-15 22:47:28 riush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3049 2011-03-15 22:47:32 <gilicorn> weird..
3050 2011-03-15 22:48:55 <ArtForz> gonna get a shot of whiskey and go check out everything connected, only explanation I have for now is *something* shorted out in a spectacular fashion
3051 2011-03-15 22:49:11 <gilicorn> oh the cluster went down? i c
3052 2011-03-15 22:49:26 <nanotube> hey, more difficulty decreases! heh
3053 2011-03-15 22:49:30 <BlueMatt> gilicorn: its all probability, that kind of stuff happens alot
3054 2011-03-15 22:50:00 <ArtForz> miners were only down for ~ 4 minutes
3055 2011-03-15 22:50:31 riush has joined
3056 2011-03-15 22:50:43 <ArtForz> one benefit of having having everything start from rc.d
3057 2011-03-15 22:51:04 <nanotube> heh
3058 2011-03-15 22:51:34 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
3059 2011-03-15 22:51:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113663 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1248 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 6 hours, 8 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 64477.36499977
3060 2011-03-15 22:56:10 <gavinandresen> gilicorn: God is messing with us
3061 2011-03-15 22:56:31 <gilicorn> well it makes sense if a miner was paused and then the diff went down i guess
3062 2011-03-15 22:57:06 <gavinandresen> nah, just randomness. We're really, really bad at randomness.
3063 2011-03-15 22:57:17 <BlueMatt> gilicorn: diff goes up/down pretty rarely every x blocks, not instantly
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3070 2011-03-15 22:59:04 <gavinandresen> speaking of randomness... anybody else try to beat the rock-paper-scissors computer at http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/science/rock-paper-scissors.html
3071 2011-03-15 22:59:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea that thing is amazing
3072 2011-03-15 22:59:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: though I found that if you pay no attention to what you are doing and just click random buttons you can win randomly
3073 2011-03-15 22:59:46 <ZenMondo> I can win rock paper scissors every time as long as I go second.
3074 2011-03-15 23:00:06 <gavinandresen> I cheated, too. Picked the digits of pi mod 3 and beat it 54% of the time
3075 2011-03-15 23:00:15 <dirtyfilthy> mixed strategy
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3082 2011-03-15 23:01:01 <forrestv> gavinandresen, i played that a while ago and thought that, since it isn't choosing randomly, it's possible to predict what it chooses
3083 2011-03-15 23:01:07 <forrestv> using knowledge/guesses at the algorithm
3084 2011-03-15 23:01:38 <gilicorn> yeah playing randomly should beat it, since it assume youre non-random based on its databse of previous games
3085 2011-03-15 23:01:49 NickelBot has joined
3086 2011-03-15 23:02:06 <gavinandresen> yup. randomness ftw
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3088 2011-03-15 23:07:31 <gilicorn> i think it only looks back a few moves, so you could probably come up with some probabilities and then trounce it
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3092 2011-03-15 23:14:12 <BlueMatt> nightly build script done, Im still building wx so it will be a while till the first one appears, but its at bluematt.me/bitcoin-nightly
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3094 2011-03-15 23:14:27 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
3095 2011-03-15 23:15:06 <BlueMatt> just linux for now, hopefully windows later in the week
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3118 2011-03-15 23:48:11 <ArtForz> okay, now I'm drunk, and I have still no clue WTF tripped the breaker and sent the UPS into emergency shutdown
3119 2011-03-15 23:48:46 <lfm> transient on the mains?
3120 2011-03-15 23:49:12 <ArtForz> unlikely
3121 2011-03-15 23:49:37 <lfm> no lightning storms around or anything eh?
3122 2011-03-15 23:49:42 <ArtForz> nope, nothing
3123 2011-03-15 23:50:34 <gavinandresen> God's messing with you
3124 2011-03-15 23:50:46 <ArtForz> also, UPS only logged line outage, running on inverter, overload shutdown, all within one second
3125 2011-03-15 23:51:52 <ArtForz> and line voltages look prefectly normal before/after, maybe a bit on the low side
3126 2011-03-15 23:52:28 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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3128 2011-03-15 23:52:42 <ArtForz> 211V nominal (should be 230...), but thats pretty normal in a rural area with decades old overhead power lines :/
3129 2011-03-15 23:53:02 <retinal> I'm guessing dip in mains voltage?
3130 2011-03-15 23:53:14 <lfm> the overload, I take it the ups isnt normally overloaded either
3131 2011-03-15 23:53:22 Spenvo has joined
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3133 2011-03-15 23:53:47 <ArtForz> hell no
3134 2011-03-15 23:54:02 <ArtForz> it was at ~2.4kW load at the time
3135 2011-03-15 23:54:09 <ArtForz> miners arent behind UPS
3136 2011-03-15 23:54:57 <retinal> if those miners are on the same circuit, that'd definitely produce a drop in the mains voltage
3137 2011-03-15 23:55:15 <lfm> would it have tried to step up a brownout and failed?
3138 2011-03-15 23:55:37 <ArtForz> yes
3139 2011-03-15 23:56:03 <ArtForz> it's a ferroresonant unit, but for such cases it usually has a mains disconnect relais
3140 2011-03-15 23:56:31 <ArtForz> I've got 3-phase here ;)
3141 2011-03-15 23:56:55 <ArtForz> miners are as evenly distributed over phases as possible, on their own circuits
3142 2011-03-15 23:57:07 <ArtForz> my only guess is something *really* weird happened on the mains
3143 2011-03-15 23:57:23 <ArtForz> and the resonant transformer tried to backfeed
3144 2011-03-15 23:57:39 <lfm> some spike came thru from japan eh?
3145 2011-03-15 23:58:07 <ArtForz> normally it should cut mains within 10msec on too big voltage/freq variation to avoid just that
3146 2011-03-15 23:58:59 <ArtForz> (trying to backfeed the line input)
3147 2011-03-15 23:59:16 ducki2p has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3148 2011-03-15 23:59:38 <ArtForz> actually... that does make sense.... bbiab