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   9 2011-03-17 00:19:21 <midnightmagic> genjix: which site?
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  14 2011-03-17 00:29:47 <sipa> how do you remove a branch on github?
  15 2011-03-17 00:30:06 <midnightmagic> switch to perforce
  16 2011-03-17 00:30:08 * midnightmagic ducks.
  17 2011-03-17 00:30:45 <sipa> ok, found
  18 2011-03-17 00:30:57 <sipa> git push origin :branchname
  19 2011-03-17 00:31:19 <luke-jr> or… git push origin --delete branchname
  20 2011-03-17 00:31:26 <luke-jr> for a slightly longer but more obvious way :P
  21 2011-03-17 00:31:44 <sipa> ah, nice
  22 2011-03-17 00:32:50 <midnightmagic> i wonder if someone is trying to obscure the origin of their bitcoins.
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  25 2011-03-17 00:34:06 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, what?
  26 2011-03-17 00:34:10 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: nah, they'd have to be generating new addresses for that
  27 2011-03-17 00:34:19 <luke-jr> not just sending them back and forth between the same two
  28 2011-03-17 00:34:27 <midnightmagic> yeah, i was seeing that..
  29 2011-03-17 00:35:02 <phantomcircuit> am i right in thinking that a higher compressed target corresponds to a higher target
  30 2011-03-17 00:35:05 <phantomcircuit> i think i am
  31 2011-03-17 00:35:30 <ArtForz> hummm... yes
  32 2011-03-17 00:35:38 <ArtForz> as the top byte is exponent
  33 2011-03-17 00:36:09 <phantomcircuit> not really interested in storing the expanded form
  34 2011-03-17 00:36:29 <phantomcircuit> k then i can just use the compressed form in my db
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  36 2011-03-17 00:37:08 <phantomcircuit> hm guess the merkle root isn't necessarily unique
  37 2011-03-17 00:37:47 <ArtForz> in theory, no...
  38 2011-03-17 00:38:26 <JFK911> mannn i ate too many opiates
  39 2011-03-17 00:38:31 <sipa> if it isn't, weird things will happen
  40 2011-03-17 00:38:35 <JFK911> washroom difficulty is rivaling bitcoin difficulty
  41 2011-03-17 00:38:36 <ArtForz> in practice it would be possible for a miner to create a block with the exact same merkleroot as another block on purpose
  42 2011-03-17 00:38:55 <phantomcircuit> well a miner who uses sequential extra nonces with no other transactions besides the minting tx could actually come accross the same merkle root
  43 2011-03-17 00:38:56 <sipa> in practice?
  44 2011-03-17 00:39:06 <sipa> that would require cracking double sha256
  45 2011-03-17 00:39:09 <ArtForz> no
  46 2011-03-17 00:39:10 dwdollar has joined
  47 2011-03-17 00:39:18 <ArtForz> lets say you have chain up to block X
  48 2011-03-17 00:39:45 <ArtForz> create a alternate block X containing only a tx-to-self, and a block X+1 that contains the *exact same* transactions as the original block X
  49 2011-03-17 00:39:56 <ArtForz> your X+1 and the original X have the same merkleroot
  50 2011-03-17 00:40:23 <sipa> right, of course
  51 2011-03-17 00:40:26 <phantomcircuit> yeah the only thing that would necessarily change is the extra nonce
  52 2011-03-17 00:40:52 <sipa> if the block contents (excluding the header) is the same, the merkle root will also be the same
  53 2011-03-17 00:41:08 <ArtForz> yep
  54 2011-03-17 00:41:22 <sipa> ok, let's reformulate
  55 2011-03-17 00:41:24 jrabbit has joined
  56 2011-03-17 00:41:33 <sipa> doing this within one chain, requires cracking double sha256
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  58 2011-03-17 00:41:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not at all
  59 2011-03-17 00:42:10 <ArtForz> no
  60 2011-03-17 00:42:13 <phantomcircuit> if you're using sequential extra nonces the odds of hitting the same extra nonce is actually pretty high
  61 2011-03-17 00:42:33 <ArtForz> I think we already have 2 blocks with the same merkleroot in the main chain
  62 2011-03-17 00:42:49 <ArtForz> 2 blocks only containing a coinbase... the *exact same* coinbase
  63 2011-03-17 00:42:58 <phantomcircuit> also why are tx's identified by their hash in the network protocol
  64 2011-03-17 00:42:59 <sipa> ah, yes
  65 2011-03-17 00:43:11 <phantomcircuit> wouldn't using block + tx index make more sense?
  66 2011-03-17 00:43:17 <phantomcircuit> actually nvm
  67 2011-03-17 00:43:18 <ArtForz> phantomcircuit: no
  68 2011-03-17 00:43:20 <sipa> is that necessary?
  69 2011-03-17 00:43:20 <phantomcircuit> dumb question
  70 2011-03-17 00:43:28 <sipa> if the hash is the same, the block is the same
  71 2011-03-17 00:43:34 <ArtForz> otherwise you couldnt move tx into new blocks on chain reorg
  72 2011-03-17 00:43:35 <sipa> *tx
  73 2011-03-17 00:43:53 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, chain re organization?
  74 2011-03-17 00:43:55 <phantomcircuit> whats this
  75 2011-03-17 00:44:15 <phantomcircuit> also
  76 2011-03-17 00:44:16 <phantomcircuit> http://www.sqlalchemy.org/docs/05/reference/ext/orderinglist.html
  77 2011-03-17 00:44:19 <phantomcircuit> <3 python
  78 2011-03-17 00:44:20 <ArtForz> when a client notices another chain overtook "his" chain
  79 2011-03-17 00:44:47 <ArtForz> he takes all tx that are in his chain but not in the new, checks if any of them are still valid and from him, if yes, he tries to resend them
  80 2011-03-17 00:44:50 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, his chain, meaning a chain in which this client has txs?
  81 2011-03-17 00:44:54 <ArtForz> yes
  82 2011-03-17 00:44:54 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
  83 2011-03-17 00:44:55 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.88,"low":0.836,"vol":7842,"buy":0.8362,"sell":0.87,"last":0.86}}
  84 2011-03-17 00:45:04 <ArtForz> just look at the code in main.cpp
  85 2011-03-17 00:45:11 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, only if they're from him?
  86 2011-03-17 00:45:22 <phantomcircuit> wouldn't you want to do this for txs from anybody?
  87 2011-03-17 00:45:23 <phantomcircuit> :P
  88 2011-03-17 00:45:24 doublec has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  89 2011-03-17 00:45:26 <ArtForz> I *think* so, it's been a while since I checked that stuff
  90 2011-03-17 00:45:48 <phantomcircuit> that doesnt happen very often does it?
  91 2011-03-17 00:46:49 <ArtForz> nope
  92 2011-03-17 00:47:33 <phantomcircuit> Column('out_hash',BINARY(32),ForeignKey('txs.hash')),
  93 2011-03-17 00:47:36 <phantomcircuit> lol facepalm
  94 2011-03-17 00:47:39 <phantomcircuit> failure
  95 2011-03-17 00:49:46 <sipa> ?
  96 2011-03-17 00:49:56 <phantomcircuit> the foreignkey
  97 2011-03-17 00:50:00 <phantomcircuit> think about it
  98 2011-03-17 00:52:14 <jgarzik> anyone have a bitcoin script engine in python, floating about anywhere public?
  99 2011-03-17 00:53:14 <phantomcircuit> i started to work on one
 100 2011-03-17 00:53:16 <genjix> you mean for json?
 101 2011-03-17 00:53:19 <phantomcircuit> and then decided to get drunk instead
 102 2011-03-17 00:55:17 <ArtForz> wise choice
 103 2011-03-17 00:56:40 <phantomcircuit> ok so i've almost kind of sort of moved from raw sqlite3 to sqlalchemy
 104 2011-03-17 00:56:43 <phantomcircuit> time for a drive
 105 2011-03-17 00:57:26 <phantomcircuit> interestingly the mix of sqlalchemy and sqlite3 hasn't broken anything
 106 2011-03-17 00:57:29 <phantomcircuit> (that i can tell)
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 108 2011-03-17 01:03:15 <JFK911> artforz i bought some g81-7000 usb
 109 2011-03-17 01:05:39 dust1 has joined
 110 2011-03-17 01:05:50 <ArtForz> how you like em?
 111 2011-03-17 01:06:53 <genjix> found a serious bug in bitcoin
 112 2011-03-17 01:07:05 <genjix> you can DOS the JSON RPC interface
 113 2011-03-17 01:07:11 <ArtForz> ROFL
 114 2011-03-17 01:07:12 <genjix> causes bitcoin to freeze
 115 2011-03-17 01:07:38 <genjix> genjix   14321  3.8  0.0      0     0 pts/5    Zl   01:03   0:06 [bitcoind] <defunct>
 116 2011-03-17 01:08:09 <luke-jr> that's dead, not frozen
 117 2011-03-17 01:08:33 <ArtForz> yeah, exposing your bitcoin json interface to the world is... a bad idea
 118 2011-03-17 01:08:51 <ArtForz> news at 11
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 125 2011-03-17 01:31:17 <jgarzik> genjix: this is well known
 126 2011-03-17 01:31:32 <jrabbit> http://twitter.com/#!/midmagic/status/47764565223686145
 127 2011-03-17 01:31:42 <jrabbit> lol
 128 2011-03-17 01:35:40 dust2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 129 2011-03-17 01:35:44 dust1 has joined
 130 2011-03-17 01:38:32 * jgarzik recycles an old forum post: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1514.msg19214#msg19214
 131 2011-03-17 01:38:46 <jgarzik> ArtForz' improvement on theymos' idea for scratch-off cards
 132 2011-03-17 01:40:50 ousado has joined
 133 2011-03-17 01:45:36 <ArtForz> hrrrm
 134 2011-03-17 01:46:19 <ArtForz> actually bytecoins scheme slightly modified should work, without even requiring nonstandard tx
 135 2011-03-17 01:47:33 <ArtForz> when generating the "tx-to-card-code" keypair, use a partially fixed secret
 136 2011-03-17 01:48:59 <ArtForz> lets say have the upper 192 bits fixed (you still have ~64 bits of randomness in your privkey)
 137 2011-03-17 01:50:07 <ArtForz> take the lower 64 bits mod 10**15, put the result in decimal on the card
 138 2011-03-17 01:50:54 <ArtForz> that leaves about 18447 possiblities (2**64 / 10**15) to bruteforce for a legit redeemer
 139 2011-03-17 01:50:54 Syke_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 140 2011-03-17 01:51:16 <ArtForz> shouldnt take THAT long
 141 2011-03-17 01:51:37 Syke_ has joined
 142 2011-03-17 01:52:23 <ArtForz> basically to redeem a code, client goes through all 18447 possible priv/pub pairs for the entered code, checks if it theres a unredeemed tx to the addr_hash(pubkey) in the block chain
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 145 2011-03-17 02:01:06 * Kiba reached the 3K posts
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 162 2011-03-17 02:22:24 <genjix> how can i make a static build of bictoin?
 163 2011-03-17 02:23:04 <jgarzik> genjix: install static libs, and pass "-static"
 164 2011-03-17 02:23:06 <luke-jr> genjix: truly static binaries are difficult to come by
 165 2011-03-17 02:23:16 <genjix> ok thanks jgarzik
 166 2011-03-17 02:23:22 <luke-jr> the Makefiles included with bitcoind default to mostly-static tho
 167 2011-03-17 02:23:25 <genjix> luke, good enough for me is ok
 168 2011-03-17 02:23:35 <genjix> oh really. nice.
 169 2011-03-17 02:23:45 <luke-jr> like 70% or so IIRC
 170 2011-03-17 02:23:48 <luke-jr> not nice, static is bad :P
 171 2011-03-17 02:24:24 <genjix> bad? because bitcoind is such a big file.
 172 2011-03-17 02:24:38 <luke-jr> bad for multiple reasons
 173 2011-03-17 02:24:54 <luke-jr> one being that if your OS installs a security fix, a static bitcoind still has the security vuln
 174 2011-03-17 02:24:54 <genjix> like? i never thought it's bad...
 175 2011-03-17 02:25:05 <luke-jr> or any other kind of fix for that matter
 176 2011-03-17 02:25:05 <genjix> good point.
 177 2011-03-17 02:25:15 <luke-jr> it also makes your binary larger as you mentioned
 178 2011-03-17 02:25:37 <luke-jr> and means that when you load it, it's not using RAM efficiently
 179 2011-03-17 02:25:54 <genjix> truw
 180 2011-03-17 02:25:55 <genjix> e
 181 2011-03-17 02:26:21 <luke-jr> basically, the *only* use for a static binary, is when you're distributing binaries you want to be cross-platform
 182 2011-03-17 02:26:31 <lfm> static is also faster
 183 2011-03-17 02:26:32 <luke-jr> which you shouldn't, because there's no such thing in all reality
 184 2011-03-17 02:26:34 <jgarzik> ArtForz: our private keys are 279 bits?
 185 2011-03-17 02:26:41 <ArtForz> 256
 186 2011-03-17 02:26:42 * jgarzik is reading key.h
 187 2011-03-17 02:26:43 <luke-jr> lfm: slightly.
 188 2011-03-17 02:26:53 <ArtForz> (well, the resulting key is bigger, but thats the whole random input)
 189 2011-03-17 02:27:08 <jgarzik> / secp256k1:
 190 2011-03-17 02:27:08 <jgarzik> / const unsigned int PRIVATE_KEY_SIZE = 279;
 191 2011-03-17 02:27:27 <jgarzik>  // const unsigned int PRIVATE_KEY_SIZE = 279;
 192 2011-03-17 02:27:27 <ArtForz> thats in bytes, for the DER-encoded key inlcuding shitloads of crap
 193 2011-03-17 02:27:32 <jgarzik> ah
 194 2011-03-17 02:27:45 <lfm> if you ever tried the old byte unix benchmark -static is way faster
 195 2011-03-17 02:27:51 <genjix> ffs
 196 2011-03-17 02:28:19 <ArtForz> iirc it's secret, coords of private point, generator point, curve params
 197 2011-03-17 02:28:30 <genjix> this vps i have keeps running out of memory... anybody have a vps to host a small site i've just made so people can propose bitcoin features and 'rate' them?
 198 2011-03-17 02:28:47 <genjix> (and it shows donations for the person who writes that feature)
 199 2011-03-17 02:29:06 <genjix> i can instruct you what to do (no need for an account)
 200 2011-03-17 02:29:26 <luke-jr> lfm: without -fPIC on the shared? :P
 201 2011-03-17 02:29:47 <luke-jr> genjix: I have VPS for sale
 202 2011-03-17 02:30:00 <genjix> luke-jr: it's a free site i've made for the community.
 203 2011-03-17 02:30:02 <luke-jr> genjix: there's also nearlyfreespeech.net for web-only stuff :P
 204 2011-03-17 02:30:14 <genjix> needs to run bitcoind
 205 2011-03-17 02:33:32 <ArtForz> ECC is really pretty simple once you get to know it
 206 2011-03-17 02:34:10 <genjix> dont have an account.
 207 2011-03-17 02:34:30 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 208 2011-03-17 02:35:39 <ArtForz> I should know, wrote a custom ECC impl from scratch to break ECDSA over a 80 bit curve
 209 2011-03-17 02:36:48 eao has joined
 210 2011-03-17 02:36:50 <ArtForz> signature scheme for updates for a discontinued embedded controller
 211 2011-03-17 02:37:19 bitcoiner has joined
 212 2011-03-17 02:37:27 sgornick has joined
 213 2011-03-17 02:38:56 <genjix> http://92.7.172.0/
 214 2011-03-17 02:39:52 <TheKid> lol
 215 2011-03-17 02:39:56 <TheKid> "Here is some help"
 216 2011-03-17 02:40:07 <jgarzik> a full 64 bits will give you 21 digits.  16 digits is found on your average credit card, so that's familiar to consumers.  brute forcing the rest is reasonable.
 217 2011-03-17 02:40:34 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 218 2011-03-17 02:40:46 <ArtForz> jgarzik: sounds resaonble
 219 2011-03-17 02:42:07 <ArtForz> according to my back of the envlope, that only leavs you about 1.8k pssoblities to BF
 220 2011-03-17 02:43:04 <ArtForz> gah, cnat type
 221 2011-03-17 02:46:51 <genjix> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4543.msg66621
 222 2011-03-17 02:47:10 <jgarzik> and another 11 digits for 32 bits worth of tx hash
 223 2011-03-17 02:47:21 <ArtForz> why?
 224 2011-03-17 02:47:47 <jgarzik> ArtForz: to redeem the card you need to find the tx?
 225 2011-03-17 02:47:54 <ArtForz> yes
 226 2011-03-17 02:48:15 <ArtForz> for the 1.8k possible pubkeys, check if theres a unredeemed tx to any of em
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 228 2011-03-17 02:48:43 <jgarzik> search every unredeemed tx in the block chain?
 229 2011-03-17 02:48:49 <ArtForz> yep
 230 2011-03-17 02:49:46 <ArtForz> shouldnt be THAt expensive
 231 2011-03-17 02:50:08 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 232 2011-03-17 02:51:19 <jgarzik> hmm.  still lean towards CARD # 1234 5678 90, PASSWORD 1111 2222 3333 4444 to directly reference a tx
 233 2011-03-17 02:51:58 <ArtForz> actually thats a neat idea
 234 2011-03-17 02:52:16 <ArtForz> makes redeeming cheaper computationally *if you have the code*
 235 2011-03-17 02:52:27 <jgarzik> yep
 236 2011-03-17 02:52:32 <ArtForz> = increases attacker / legit redeemer overhead
 237 2011-03-17 02:59:11 miner_ has joined
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 242 2011-03-17 03:10:08 <jgarzik> ah, good.  all bitcoin databases appear to be btree.  so I should be able to easily search for a partial tx hash.
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 247 2011-03-17 03:36:41 <forrestv> mining is the perfect way to rationalize buying a costly video card
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 259 2011-03-17 03:59:59 <phantomcircuit> damn it
 260 2011-03-17 04:00:04 <phantomcircuit> i thought that was decafe
 261 2011-03-17 04:00:08 <phantomcircuit> er
 262 2011-03-17 04:00:09 * ArtForz damns it
 263 2011-03-17 04:00:09 <phantomcircuit> decaf
 264 2011-03-17 04:00:11 <phantomcircuit> >.>
 265 2011-03-17 04:00:13 <phantomcircuit> <.<
 266 2011-03-17 04:00:36 <JFK911> ArtForz: i didnt get the g81's yet.  i want to try the compact layout
 267 2011-03-17 04:00:37 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, thank you
 268 2011-03-17 04:00:41 <JFK911> not sure if i will like the g81 action
 269 2011-03-17 04:00:53 <ArtForz> it's pretty... weird
 270 2011-03-17 04:01:02 <ArtForz> a bit like a mx black, but not quite
 271 2011-03-17 04:01:04 <JFK911> they are rather common in germany though?
 272 2011-03-17 04:01:16 <ArtForz> yup
 273 2011-03-17 04:01:19 <ArtForz> but really not bad for a cheap keyboard
 274 2011-03-17 04:01:26 <ArtForz> well "cheap"
 275 2011-03-17 04:01:32 <phantomcircuit> cheap keyboards are a bad idea :|
 276 2011-03-17 04:01:39 <ArtForz> like $50 for a 105-key new
 277 2011-03-17 04:01:55 <JFK911> added bonus, these have the crazy controllers in them to support mag stripe/barcode
 278 2011-03-17 04:01:58 <phantomcircuit> you only get one set of wrists
 279 2011-03-17 04:02:01 <JFK911> i dont care about those things but the keyboard is programmable
 280 2011-03-17 04:02:17 <ArtForz> and they're easy to clean like MX-type KBs
 281 2011-03-17 04:02:37 <ArtForz> = just pop the caps off and wash
 282 2011-03-17 04:02:45 <JFK911> scrap MX from cash registers have turned out to be a super great deal
 283 2011-03-17 04:03:22 <JFK911> thats about the only application they are common for in north america
 284 2011-03-17 04:03:37 <ArtForz> they're common for data entry around here
 285 2011-03-17 04:03:38 doublec has joined
 286 2011-03-17 04:03:51 <JFK911> i remember using wyse terminal with mx black
 287 2011-03-17 04:04:00 <ArtForz> so it's easy to get a shitload of std 104/105
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 291 2011-03-17 04:11:48 <ArtForz> fuck, watching minecraft LPs is addictive
 292 2011-03-17 04:12:06 echelon has joined
 293 2011-03-17 04:14:27 <jgarzik> gah!  so, CreateTransaction() just throws away sub-CENT change?
 294 2011-03-17 04:14:54 <ArtForz> mine doesnt if it can help it, so does luke-jr's
 295 2011-03-17 04:15:51 <luke-jr> jgarzik: that's the bugfix I submitted months ago
 296 2011-03-17 04:16:19 <jgarzik> seems like a one-line change
 297 2011-03-17 04:16:29 <ArtForz> not quite
 298 2011-03-17 04:16:30 <luke-jr> jgarzik: not that simple
 299 2011-03-17 04:16:43 <luke-jr> if you simply don't throw it away, you have to pay a fee ;)
 300 2011-03-17 04:16:50 <ArtForz> lol, me and luke agree, mark this day!
 301 2011-03-17 04:17:03 <luke-jr> my patch goes looking for an extra CENT to avoid the fee
 302 2011-03-17 04:17:10 <ArtForz> yup
 303 2011-03-17 04:18:25 <ZenMondo> I always wondered why they say that you can divide a bitcoin to so many places (8?) but the client only goes to two but the pooled miners go out like 30 places
 304 2011-03-17 04:19:30 <Kiba> ZenMondo: 2 place on client is comestic restriction
 305 2011-03-17 04:19:42 <Kiba> since it's unnecesary for now
 306 2011-03-17 04:19:45 <ArtForz> watch out for stray comets!
 307 2011-03-17 04:20:12 <ZenMondo> So I may have some fractional coin that is not shown?
 308 2011-03-17 04:20:19 <ArtForz> yup
 309 2011-03-17 04:20:49 <ZenMondo> I am only now starting to get into the code.  Looking for the getwork stuff have not found it yet.
 310 2011-03-17 04:21:07 <luke-jr> ZenMondo: more importantly, if you DO have those fractional coins, the wx client will silently discard them
 311 2011-03-17 04:21:12 <ZenMondo> but I have not been looking hard. Just skimming stuff to get a feel about tis
 312 2011-03-17 04:21:15 <ArtForz> tried looking in rpc.cpp?
 313 2011-03-17 04:21:25 <luke-jr> ArtForz: the main code for getwork is in main.cpp :P
 314 2011-03-17 04:21:41 <luke-jr> ZenMondo: also, nothing can go beyond 8 decimal places
 315 2011-03-17 04:21:41 <ArtForz> well, thats why it's called kitchensink.cpp
 316 2011-03-17 04:21:53 <luke-jr> because a real bitcoin value is an integer
 317 2011-03-17 04:22:02 Syke_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 318 2011-03-17 04:22:05 <luke-jr> and BTC is simply defined as real-coins / 100,000,000
 319 2011-03-17 04:22:25 <ArtForz> yup
 320 2011-03-17 04:22:49 Syke_ has joined
 321 2011-03-17 04:23:23 <ArtForz> base unit = microcents (centimicros?), well, COIN = 1e8
 322 2011-03-17 04:27:01 <Kiba> I call it: the satoshi
 323 2011-03-17 04:27:45 <ArtForz> bitquantums?
 324 2011-03-17 04:27:50  is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-252-41-51.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
 325 2011-03-17 04:28:05 <Kiba> 0.00000001 is a satoshi
 326 2011-03-17 04:28:20 <ArtForz> thats a very small satoshi
 327 2011-03-17 04:28:36 <Kiba> yes, that's a very small bitcoin
 328 2011-03-17 04:28:38 <ZenMondo> also I am using bitcoin code to teach myself emacs.
 329 2011-03-17 04:29:15 * Kiba drank some Melatonin
 330 2011-03-17 04:29:27 <luke-jr> ZenMondo: you trying to start a war?
 331 2011-03-17 04:29:45 <ArtForz> no, vim won that one a decade ago
 332 2011-03-17 04:29:50 <lfm> ZenMondo: a masocist are you
 333 2011-03-17 04:29:55 <luke-jr> Kiba: then I call it: BitCoin-bong
 334 2011-03-17 04:30:04 <Kiba> I used emacs
 335 2011-03-17 04:30:17 <Kiba> I even IRC in emacs!
 336 2011-03-17 04:30:29 <ArtForz> emacs users anonymous?
 337 2011-03-17 04:30:32 <ZenMondo> haha well I thought it was time.  in unix I use pico as I am usually in a terminal window and in windows I use EditPlus
 338 2011-03-17 04:30:52 <echelon> vim > emax
 339 2011-03-17 04:30:57 <ArtForz> well, as long as it's not joe...
 340 2011-03-17 04:31:03 <ZenMondo> "emacs is a versatile operating system you can use to edit text"
 341 2011-03-17 04:31:13 <echelon> lolol
 342 2011-03-17 04:31:19 <Kiba> emacs > vim
 343 2011-03-17 04:31:24 <ArtForz> nah, "pretty decent os, lacks a good text editor"
 344 2011-03-17 04:32:01 <Kiba> it's totally good at editing texts!
 345 2011-03-17 04:33:00 <ZenMondo> anyway I run windows for a variety of reasons (Not the least is my son's games don't run in linux) but like WUBI and emacs is a pain in windows though.  Also I need to find the php syntax highlighter thingamajob
 346 2011-03-17 04:33:14 <dirtyfilthy> how do i use the gribble difficulty calculator?
 347 2011-03-17 04:33:46 <ArtForz> if I'm forced to use 'doze, I want uedit32 or at least notepad++
 348 2011-03-17 04:33:58 <ArtForz> dirtyfilthy: ?
 349 2011-03-17 04:34:43 <ArtForz> can't bring myself to use a *nix editor on 'doze, feels like dishonoring its ancestors
 350 2011-03-17 04:34:43 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 351 2011-03-17 04:34:58 <dirtyfilthy> like it'll take x amount of time at y khashes to generate a block
 352 2011-03-17 04:35:09 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calcd 1 1
 353 2011-03-17 04:35:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 7 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 2 minutes, and 47 seconds
 354 2011-03-17 04:35:14 <dirtyfilthy> thanks
 355 2011-03-17 04:46:22 <lfm> ;;bc,gend 2 1
 356 2011-03-17 04:46:23 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 2.01165676117 BTC per day and 0.0838190317154 BTC per hour.
 357 2011-03-17 04:47:08 chaord has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 358 2011-03-17 04:47:40 <Aciid> genjix: around?
 359 2011-03-17 04:52:33 doublec has joined
 360 2011-03-17 04:54:51 <phantomcircuit> hmm
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 369 2011-03-17 05:19:07 <Kiba> did bitcoin forum goes kaboom?
 370 2011-03-17 05:19:10 <Kiba> oh
 371 2011-03-17 05:20:08 <genjix> Aciid: hey!
 372 2011-03-17 05:20:14 <genjix> thanks :) i just responded.
 373 2011-03-17 05:20:24 <genjix> awesome.
 374 2011-03-17 05:20:31 <Aciid> hioo
 375 2011-03-17 05:20:47 <Aciid> genjix: just read it =)
 376 2011-03-17 05:20:59 <Kiba> methink kickstarter-equse site is a nice site
 377 2011-03-17 05:21:01 <Kiba> err
 378 2011-03-17 05:21:01 <genjix> emacs sucks, vim rules.
 379 2011-03-17 05:21:02 <Kiba> idea
 380 2011-03-17 05:21:08 <Kiba> emacs rocks, vim sucks!
 381 2011-03-17 05:21:09 <genjix> Kiba: well source is open if you want it.
 382 2011-03-17 05:21:16 <bt2100> emacs and vim sucks, nano rules!
 383 2011-03-17 05:21:20 <bt2100> =p
 384 2011-03-17 05:21:20 <genjix> ill help you if you want to get hacking on it.
 385 2011-03-17 05:21:34 <Kiba> emacs is king of the hill, while vims and nano fight over a smaller hill!
 386 2011-03-17 05:21:44 <genjix> in fact you can watch me set it up if Aciid doesn't mind.
 387 2011-03-17 05:21:55 <Kiba> genjix: I got a site I am working on
 388 2011-03-17 05:21:56 <genjix> (over ssh + gnu screen)
 389 2011-03-17 05:22:08 <genjix> heh ok
 390 2011-03-17 05:22:12 <Kiba> and a freelance project to finish
 391 2011-03-17 05:22:35 <genjix> time to stop posting like a machine then.
 392 2011-03-17 05:22:54 <Kiba> I am done with work for the day
 393 2011-03-17 05:23:01 <Kiba> done my 75 commits
 394 2011-03-17 05:23:11 <genjix> i don't work. i'm free.
 395 2011-03-17 05:23:19 <Aciid> genjix: have you decided that is the name final?
 396 2011-03-17 05:23:26 <Kiba> and I was working on my site until midnight come
 397 2011-03-17 05:23:26 <genjix> Aciid: what name?
 398 2011-03-17 05:23:35 <genjix> i didn't even pick one. you can choose.
 399 2011-03-17 05:23:36 miner_ has joined
 400 2011-03-17 05:23:47 <genjix> lets call it TripOnAcid
 401 2011-03-17 05:23:47 <Aciid> I just saw postecon at the title
 402 2011-03-17 05:23:51 <Aciid> hahah
 403 2011-03-17 05:23:53 <miner_> ;;bc,stats
 404 2011-03-17 05:23:55 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113836 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1075 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 15 hours, 32 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65858.58496641
 405 2011-03-17 05:24:11 <genjix> yeah postecon = post economic scarcity
 406 2011-03-17 05:24:13 <Kiba> genjix: I got an idea for a project in April
 407 2011-03-17 05:24:27 <Kiba> which require me to do a lot of work in March
 408 2011-03-17 05:24:28 <miner_> ;;bs,gend 5200000, 65000
 409 2011-03-17 05:24:28 <gribble> Error: "bs,gend" is not a valid command.
 410 2011-03-17 05:24:30 <genjix> Kiba: tell me so i can steal it :)
 411 2011-03-17 05:24:35 <Aciid> genjix: something I can make a subdomain out of, if not yet final. no reason to make a domain yet.
 412 2011-03-17 05:24:47 <Aciid> "logic"
 413 2011-03-17 05:24:50 <Kiba> genjix: I have an article for you to steal but my site is down for the moment
 414 2011-03-17 05:24:51 <genjix> not yet final
 415 2011-03-17 05:24:51 <miner_> ;;bc,gend 5200000,65000
 416 2011-03-17 05:24:51 <gribble> (bc,gend <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The expected generation output, at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [math calc 50*24*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per day and [math calc 50*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per hour.".
 417 2011-03-17 05:25:04 <Aciid> as for webdev purposes, better watch it grow first.
 418 2011-03-17 05:25:09 <genjix> Aciid: not important. you can choose one if you wish.
 419 2011-03-17 05:25:11 <Kiba> genjix: basically, it's an HTML5 games
 420 2011-03-17 05:25:13 <miner_> ;;bc,gen 5200000
 421 2011-03-17 05:25:14 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 68.6446382459 BTC per day and 2.86019326025 BTC per hour.
 422 2011-03-17 05:25:15 <genjix> yep
 423 2011-03-17 05:25:26 <Kiba> but it's "celluar"
 424 2011-03-17 05:25:37 <Kiba> that mean, no set "building"
 425 2011-03-17 05:25:47 <Kiba> or tech tree
 426 2011-03-17 05:25:47 <genjix> Aciid: it's ok that i run bitcoin on it, right?
 427 2011-03-17 05:25:53 <Kiba> all the cells you ever need is constructed
 428 2011-03-17 05:25:58 <Kiba> well
 429 2011-03-17 05:26:05 <Kiba> you get access to all type of cells you will ever need
 430 2011-03-17 05:26:08 <Aciid> genjix: scratch scratch, the current server can't mine.
 431 2011-03-17 05:26:10 <Kiba> just need to grow them
 432 2011-03-17 05:26:18 <Aciid> genjix: it's not powerful enough.
 433 2011-03-17 05:26:22 <genjix> Aciid: not mining, just running bitcoind.
 434 2011-03-17 05:26:30 <Kiba> if you construct technologies/buildings/units, you basically construct your own organic structures
 435 2011-03-17 05:26:33 <genjix> to accept payments.
 436 2011-03-17 05:26:49 <Kiba> and all living cells use energy
 437 2011-03-17 05:26:53 <Aciid> it's ok
 438 2011-03-17 05:27:00 <genjix> Kiba: sounds pretty cool.
 439 2011-03-17 05:27:02 <Kiba> and that energy is in the form of bitcoin
 440 2011-03-17 05:27:04 miner_ has quit (Client Quit)
 441 2011-03-17 05:27:09 <Kiba> but the energy is plentiful
 442 2011-03-17 05:27:15 <Aciid> that just kinda means that I have to make you a user before that
 443 2011-03-17 05:27:18 <Kiba> they all consume satoshis, which is the smallest unit of bitcoin
 444 2011-03-17 05:27:29 <Aciid> scatch scratch, so the new server is coming at around next month
 445 2011-03-17 05:27:31 <genjix> although you know if people need bitcoin to progress early on then it's unattractive to people.
 446 2011-03-17 05:27:48 <genjix> and if it's too obvious you use bitcoins then people find that unfair.
 447 2011-03-17 05:27:51 <Kiba> genjix: but to play a game, it's a very small amount of bitcoin
 448 2011-03-17 05:27:57 <genjix> that's how all these casual games work.
 449 2011-03-17 05:27:59 <Kiba> and everything require energy
 450 2011-03-17 05:28:03 <Kiba> and all energy use bitcoin
 451 2011-03-17 05:28:09 <genjix> hook you in on a drive-by.
 452 2011-03-17 05:28:19 <genjix> get you doing some easy task for a reward
 453 2011-03-17 05:28:25 <mmagic> who wants to bet whether i can make an auto-trade bot sell at the current sell price by tricking it to underbid me?
 454 2011-03-17 05:28:34 <mmagic> sell price = buy price
 455 2011-03-17 05:28:41 <genjix> then capitalise on their greed to collect high scores
 456 2011-03-17 05:28:45 <Kiba> you can purchase DNA cells, which is basically designs that you can use within games
 457 2011-03-17 05:29:10 <Kiba> but all these are just memory slot
 458 2011-03-17 05:29:20 <Kiba> so you can design all your buildings
 459 2011-03-17 05:29:24 <genjix> also the problem with 'cells' and stuff is players can't relate much.
 460 2011-03-17 05:29:27 <Kiba> but if they're buggy, well...
 461 2011-03-17 05:29:33 <Kiba> too bad
 462 2011-03-17 05:29:38 <Kiba> you should have made a better design
 463 2011-03-17 05:29:48 <genjix> it's abstract so your art has to be really sexy or they have to be anthropomorphised
 464 2011-03-17 05:29:52 <Kiba> if you can't gathered the right type of cells, well..that's too bad
 465 2011-03-17 05:30:37 <Kiba> it's a basically a sandbox RTS game
 466 2011-03-17 05:31:31 <Kiba> since all cells use energy, you will be forced to figure out how to keep your supply chain running and efficently deliver the energy you need
 467 2011-03-17 05:31:44 <mmagic> ahahahaha awesome!
 468 2011-03-17 05:32:04 <Kiba> you will be forced to stragetize on protecting your supply chain
 469 2011-03-17 05:32:11 dust1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 470 2011-03-17 05:33:11 <genjix> Kiba: here's some good reading for inspiration/knowledge,
 471 2011-03-17 05:33:12 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy
 472 2011-03-17 05:33:19 <genjix> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organizing#Self-organization_in_cybernetics
 473 2011-03-17 05:33:34 <genjix> in the sims the way they programmed the AI to work in houses
 474 2011-03-17 05:33:40 <Kiba> genjix: well, I don't really care anything about...
 475 2011-03-17 05:33:45 <genjix> is that each sim is like an 'ant'
 476 2011-03-17 05:33:51 <Kiba> farmhill or whatever game
 477 2011-03-17 05:33:57 <Kiba> that use mechanics
 478 2011-03-17 05:34:12 <Kiba> that make the game addicting or something
 479 2011-03-17 05:34:26 <Kiba> genjix: yes, that should be how my game work
 480 2011-03-17 05:35:02 <Kiba> it will take some experimentation though
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 489 2011-03-17 06:17:11 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 490 2011-03-17 06:17:13 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113841 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1070 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 14 hours, 52 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65729.57301582
 491 2011-03-17 06:17:13 dust1 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 493 2011-03-17 06:18:37 <ZenMondo> does the difficulty going down mean there are less hashes being processed?
 494 2011-03-17 06:19:47 <phantomcircuit> no
 495 2011-03-17 06:19:49 <phantomcircuit> well
 496 2011-03-17 06:19:51 <phantomcircuit> ZenMondo, yes
 497 2011-03-17 06:19:55 <phantomcircuit> kind of
 498 2011-03-17 06:20:09 <phantomcircuit> it means the rate at which blocks are being created has dropped
 499 2011-03-17 06:20:36 <phantomcircuit> rofl
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 506 2011-03-17 06:32:55 <jostmey> .
 507 2011-03-17 06:39:08 <jgarzik> ArtForz: so, I created 'sendscratchoff' RPC: http://pastebin.com/VHeWD4dN
 508 2011-03-17 06:39:55 <jgarzik> ArtForz: in bitcoin's key.h, OpenSSL's o2i_ECPublicKey() fails, when I pass it 32 bytes of random data.  I think it's expecting DER format or somesuch.
 509 2011-03-17 06:41:30 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 510 2011-03-17 06:41:42 jostmey has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 511 2011-03-17 06:42:12 FellowTraveler has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 512 2011-03-17 06:43:32 <jgarzik> ArtForz: here's a dumped, newly generated random ECDSA key: http://pastebin.com/KfMWhC0p  Fields in dump: prime, a, b, generator, order and cofactor.
 513 2011-03-17 06:45:42 <jgarzik> If I had to guess, I would say I need to (a) generate a new key w/ MakeNewKey(), and than (b) random some random offset deep inside those 279 bytes with our magic 64 bits?
 514 2011-03-17 06:45:55 <jgarzik> er, replace some random...
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 519 2011-03-17 06:56:22 <jgarzik> prime and order don't look very random
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 524 2011-03-17 07:15:51 <jgarzik> ok, I found the !@#! key
 525 2011-03-17 07:15:55 <jgarzik> kinda
 526 2011-03-17 07:22:12 <da2ce7> *chinees studends on bitcoin-smf*
 527 2011-03-17 07:22:31 * da2ce7 thinks about jobs that need to be done.
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 543 2011-03-17 08:20:43 <jgarzik> ArtForz: ok, I think I got it going
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 545 2011-03-17 08:37:03 <mizerydearia> In regards to charity implementation, what information seems useful to keep traffic for each charity?  This is what I have so far: balance, total donated, website, charity name
 546 2011-03-17 08:37:14 <mizerydearia> ah, bitcoin address
 547 2011-03-17 08:38:19 <mizerydearia> email address also
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 551 2011-03-17 08:44:28 <mmagic> hey. how does that bot know what's in the dark pool order book?!
 552 2011-03-17 08:45:45 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 553 2011-03-17 08:45:45 <mizerydearia> mmagic, gribble?
 554 2011-03-17 08:45:54 <mizerydearia> or mtgox?
 555 2011-03-17 08:47:07 <mmagic> there's a bot trading right now, and instantly reacting when you undercut it. the trade value is 340.25, currently @ 0.886999
 556 2011-03-17 08:47:28 <mmagic> and just as an experiment i put up a pure dark pool order. and a moment later, it reacted and undercut me
 557 2011-03-17 08:47:44 <mmagic> how the hell is that possible?!
 558 2011-03-17 08:47:54 prescott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 559 2011-03-17 08:48:36 <mmagic> here, watch, i'll make it go back up to its preferred 88.89¢ price.. ready?
 560 2011-03-17 08:48:39 <mizerydearia> mmagic, It could be bot established by the site owner
 561 2011-03-17 08:48:45 <mizerydearia> or someone with insider access
 562 2011-03-17 08:49:12 <mmagic> take a peek, grab the getDepth.php file and see what i'm talking about.
 563 2011-03-17 08:49:25 <mizerydearia> meh, I believe ya
 564 2011-03-17 08:49:34 <mizerydearia> basically the site is running its own bot probably
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 573 2011-03-17 09:00:16 <mmagic> so this is current:  New sell:   340.25 @ $0.886999 per, Sell up:    79.02 @ $0.87     per (from    13.02),Del sell:   340.25 @ $0.888999 per..  aaaand.. drumroll.. no, it stopped now.
 574 2011-03-17 09:01:53 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 575 2011-03-17 09:05:42 <joepie91> morning
 576 2011-03-17 09:06:07 <mmagic> bullpucky; the bot isn't reacting to dark pool orders now. i wonder if they're just scraping bitcoin charts.
 577 2011-03-17 09:06:21 <ZenMondo> can't be morning yet I have not slept and the lights are still on
 578 2011-03-17 09:06:46 <joepie91> heh
 579 2011-03-17 09:06:51 <joepie91> it is morning here :)
 580 2011-03-17 09:06:52 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4555.0
 581 2011-03-17 09:06:53 <jgarzik> [PATCH] bitcoin scratch-off cards
 582 2011-03-17 09:08:32 <joepie91> idea: a payment gateway like paypal does, only for bitcoin (without transaction fee)
 583 2011-03-17 09:08:34 <joepie91> good idea or not?
 584 2011-03-17 09:08:49 <joepie91> making callbacks / sending emails whenever a payment is "confirmed"
 585 2011-03-17 09:09:07 <jgarzik> joepie91: good idea.  we need more of those.
 586 2011-03-17 09:09:30 <joepie91> well... I think I'm going to write one :P
 587 2011-03-17 09:09:36 <joepie91> a hosted gateway
 588 2011-03-17 09:09:46 <joepie91> so that basically anyone can accept bitcoin without needing to run a local bitcoind
 589 2011-03-17 09:10:00 <joepie91> also.. I noticed the coincard service has an API
 590 2011-03-17 09:10:13 <joepie91> if you combine a bitcoin payment gateway with the coincard to-paypal API...
 591 2011-03-17 09:10:23 <joepie91> any paypal merchant could basically accept bitcoin without even needing to use bitcoin himself
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 598 2011-03-17 09:22:26 suzu has left ("I'm not really concerned by bitcoin dev at the moment, but I'll stay in #bitcoin-discussion. see you there.")
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 600 2011-03-17 09:39:41 <jgarzik> joepie91: good point
 601 2011-03-17 09:41:07 larsig has joined
 602 2011-03-17 09:41:19 <joepie91> also considering hosting for virtual goods
 603 2011-03-17 09:41:20 <noagendamarket> I say go for it
 604 2011-03-17 09:41:21 <joepie91> as in
 605 2011-03-17 09:41:29 <joepie91> if you create a payment page you can upload the product
 606 2011-03-17 09:41:39 <joepie91> and the gateway handles the hosting and delivery of the digital product
 607 2011-03-17 09:41:40 <joepie91> for free
 608 2011-03-17 09:42:09 <joepie91> and to prevent people from selling other peoples stuff, hold the payments for hosted products for 24-48 hours in which the buyer can report a non-legit sale
 609 2011-03-17 09:42:10 <noagendamarket> that sounds like etsy but for virtual goods :)
 610 2011-03-17 09:42:19 <joepie91> and if he does and it turns out the seller has no right to sell it
 611 2011-03-17 09:42:24 <joepie91> the product is removed
 612 2011-03-17 09:42:25 <noagendamarket> vetsy   lol
 613 2011-03-17 09:42:30 <joepie91> and the payment refunded
 614 2011-03-17 09:44:05 <joepie91> that would probably prevent people from uploading copyrighted stuff etc and getting me in trouble for hosting it
 615 2011-03-17 09:49:28 towerX is now known as tower
 616 2011-03-17 09:59:55 <mizerydearia> What is the shortest charity name length?  and the longest?
 617 2011-03-17 10:00:08 quadcores has joined
 618 2011-03-17 10:00:24 <mizerydearia> or any organization that accepts donations.  It doesn't have to be a charity.
 619 2011-03-17 10:00:44 <quadcores> what can't I /join #bitcoin-discussion?
 620 2011-03-17 10:01:38 <joepie91> mizerydearia: howso>?
 621 2011-03-17 10:01:39 <joepie91> also
 622 2011-03-17 10:01:49 <joepie91> there is a wiki page that lists organizations
 623 2011-03-17 10:01:51 <joepie91> that accept donations
 624 2011-03-17 10:01:53 <mizerydearia> quadcores, you're already in the channel
 625 2011-03-17 10:02:15 <quadcores> lol. ah. so its my client thats messed up.
 626 2011-03-17 10:02:19 <mizerydearia> joepie91, yes.  I contacted many of them to introduce them to an implementation for a website that I am working on.
 627 2011-03-17 10:02:36 <joepie91> implementation? do tell more?
 628 2011-03-17 10:02:52 <mizerydearia> joepie91, http://www.freelists.org/post/torservers/Charity-integration-at-witcoin,1
 629 2011-03-17 10:04:28 <joepie91> hm
 630 2011-03-17 10:04:39 <joepie91> interesting concept... but what is the final purpose?
 631 2011-03-17 10:04:48 <joepie91> supporting organizations who use the platform?
 632 2011-03-17 10:07:15 <mizerydearia> the final purpose is to incentivize usage of witcoin, providing users to establish more potential worthiness of posting to the site in a kind of effort to micro-payingly donate to charities?  I have no idea.
 633 2011-03-17 10:07:21 <mizerydearia> I just thought it was cool idea. ^_^
 634 2011-03-17 10:07:55 <joepie91> heh
 635 2011-03-17 10:08:01 <joepie91> well, it won't hurt to implement it :P
 636 2011-03-17 10:08:27 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 637 2011-03-17 10:11:41 <joepie91> but yeah
 638 2011-03-17 10:11:47 <joepie91> the concept makes me think of a flattr with downlines
 639 2011-03-17 10:11:55 <joepie91> @ mizerydearia
 640 2011-03-17 10:12:11 <mizerydearia> mm
 641 2011-03-17 10:12:27 wolfspraul has joined
 642 2011-03-17 10:12:32 <joepie91> mh
 643 2011-03-17 10:12:40 <joepie91> I think I'm gonna set up bitcoind on my vps now
 644 2011-03-17 10:12:41 <joepie91> :P
 645 2011-03-17 10:14:23 tower has joined
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 647 2011-03-17 10:16:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the right sendmany patch is gavin's branch right?
 648 2011-03-17 10:17:00 tower is now known as towerX
 649 2011-03-17 10:18:02 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it's upstream
 650 2011-03-17 10:18:32 <BlueMatt> oh since when?
 651 2011-03-17 10:19:00 <BlueMatt> oh my bad
 652 2011-03-17 10:19:14 <BlueMatt> missed that commit...god I really need to work on my memory
 653 2011-03-17 10:19:47 <jgarzik> joepie91: make sure you have memory, bitcoind wants a lot
 654 2011-03-17 10:20:24 <joepie91> 1024MB guaranteed, 2048MB burst
 655 2011-03-17 10:20:24 <joepie91> :)
 656 2011-03-17 10:20:35 <joepie91> 110GB disk space
 657 2011-03-17 10:21:02 <joepie91> not going to mine or anything, so I suppose CPU is not extremely important
 658 2011-03-17 10:28:48 <BlueMatt> arg genjix needs to update bitnom for sendmany
 659 2011-03-17 10:29:37 <joepie91> jgarzik: how much RAM does bitcoind use?
 660 2011-03-17 10:29:38 <joepie91> on average?
 661 2011-03-17 10:29:54 <BlueMatt> joepie91: almost nothing
 662 2011-03-17 10:29:57 <BlueMatt> 1g is plenty
 663 2011-03-17 10:30:02 <joepie91> heh ok
 664 2011-03-17 10:30:07 <joepie91> machine will be dedicated to bitcoind
 665 2011-03-17 10:30:11 <joepie91> and the payment gateway
 666 2011-03-17 10:30:13 <BlueMatt> well almost nothing as in a couple hundred meg
 667 2011-03-17 10:30:14 <joepie91> so that should be fine then
 668 2011-03-17 10:30:19 <joepie91> ye, that's acceptable :P
 669 2011-03-17 10:30:31 <joepie91> as long as it stays under 1024 most of the time it's ok
 670 2011-03-17 10:30:40 <joepie91> it can burst up to 2048... but it;s still burst
 671 2011-03-17 10:30:55 <BlueMatt> plus swap
 672 2011-03-17 10:31:06 <joepie91> openvz
 673 2011-03-17 10:31:09 <joepie91> no swap afaik
 674 2011-03-17 10:31:22 <BlueMatt> ah
 675 2011-03-17 10:31:24 <joepie91> :)
 676 2011-03-17 10:31:53 <joepie91> and ye, I figure 4TB transfer is enough to keep stuff running :P
 677 2011-03-17 10:32:00 <joepie91> even anonnews does not use that I believe...
 678 2011-03-17 10:32:03 <BlueMatt> he plenty
 679 2011-03-17 10:32:23 <BlueMatt> where are you getting this vps?
 680 2011-03-17 10:32:49 <joepie91> buyvm
 681 2011-03-17 10:32:49 <joepie91> :)
 682 2011-03-17 10:32:59 <joepie91> www.buyvm.net
 683 2011-03-17 10:33:00 <joepie91> not .com
 684 2011-03-17 10:33:03 <joepie91> .com is a squatter
 685 2011-03-17 10:33:21 <BlueMatt> never heard of them, oversold?
 686 2011-03-17 10:33:22 <joepie91> also, anonnews used about 200GB so far as a fairly high-traffic site... so about 400GB in total
 687 2011-03-17 10:33:27 <joepie91> then bitcoin gateway should be ok
 688 2011-03-17 10:33:28 <joepie91> meh
 689 2011-03-17 10:33:33 <joepie91> they might be a bit oversold
 690 2011-03-17 10:33:38 <joepie91> but they have a strict limit of nodes per host
 691 2011-03-17 10:33:45 <joepie91> and I've not really had performance issues or anything
 692 2011-03-17 10:34:06 <joepie91> however they are lenient on what's allowed... so on the bigger VPSes some minecrafts and rtorrents etc are running
 693 2011-03-17 10:34:24 <joepie91> which leads to bandwidth varying a lot sometimes
 694 2011-03-17 10:34:30 <joepie91> I usually get about 65MB/sec from cachefly though
 695 2011-03-17 10:34:32 <BlueMatt> oh sucks
 696 2011-03-17 10:34:35 <joepie91> shared 1gbit port
 697 2011-03-17 10:34:42 <BlueMatt> 65 isnt bad
 698 2011-03-17 10:34:50 <joepie91> cheaper VPSes like the $15/year are slower, they are often used for VPNs
 699 2011-03-17 10:35:00 <joepie91> I get between 50-400kb through my pptp on there
 700 2011-03-17 10:35:02 <joepie91>  / sec
 701 2011-03-17 10:35:14 <TD> i wonder how hard/expensive it is to actually do a deal with some smaller supermarket chains and get scratch cards into circulation
 702 2011-03-17 10:35:15 <joepie91> but it's a good host nevertheless
 703 2011-03-17 10:35:33 <joepie91> TD; if you team up with a voucher distribution company it'd be easy
 704 2011-03-17 10:35:33 <BlueMatt> joepie91: ouch 400k kinda sucks
 705 2011-03-17 10:35:39 <joepie91> if you'd do it on yourself it'd be hard
 706 2011-03-17 10:35:48 <joepie91> BlueMatt: it's pretty ok for a 15$/year VPS
 707 2011-03-17 10:35:48 <joepie91> :P
 708 2011-03-17 10:35:53 <BlueMatt> TD: who is going to print them?
 709 2011-03-17 10:35:55 <BlueMatt> joepie91: true
 710 2011-03-17 10:35:56 <joepie91> that's like just a bit over 1 dollar per month
 711 2011-03-17 10:36:07 <joepie91> and they support pptp and openvpn etc
 712 2011-03-17 10:36:20 <joepie91> only openvz host that supports pptp etc, as far as I am aware
 713 2011-03-17 10:36:35 <joepie91> if you need more stability and a more reliable (but lower) speed, try ramhost
 714 2011-03-17 10:36:41 <BlueMatt> not bad, but I get petter through a pptp on my home connection
 715 2011-03-17 10:36:45 <joepie91> they have 80mbit dedicated per VPS I believe
 716 2011-03-17 10:36:48 <BlueMatt> better*
 717 2011-03-17 10:36:49 <joepie91> or 40
 718 2011-03-17 10:36:50 <joepie91> not sure
 719 2011-03-17 10:36:56 <joepie91> heh
 720 2011-03-17 10:37:08 <BlueMatt> ok that I dont have
 721 2011-03-17 10:37:12 <joepie91> mye, for me it's a cheap vpn with canada IP (even though physical server is in US)
 722 2011-03-17 10:37:18 <joepie91> can be useful
 723 2011-03-17 10:37:23 <joepie91> and I'm gonna use it for a nameserver
 724 2011-03-17 10:37:30 <BlueMatt> who needs a canada ip?
 725 2011-03-17 10:37:39 <joepie91> there are canada-only services sometimes :)
 726 2011-03-17 10:37:42 <joepie91> and it's useful for a seedbox
 727 2011-03-17 10:37:51 <joepie91> most companies don't even bother sending a DMCA to a box with canada ip
 728 2011-03-17 10:37:57 <BlueMatt> nice
 729 2011-03-17 10:38:17 <joepie91> but yeah, I use BuyVM for things that need to "burst" more
 730 2011-03-17 10:38:23 <joepie91> seedbox, bitcoin gateway, minecraft
 731 2011-03-17 10:38:23 <joepie91> etc
 732 2011-03-17 10:38:34 <joepie91> I use Ramhost for more stable and reliable things that need a predictable speed and performance
 733 2011-03-17 10:38:39 <joepie91> like a social network I am running
 734 2011-03-17 10:39:08 <joepie91> they're both very good (and both very friendly support, and buyvm has an irc channel), they just serve different purposes imo
 735 2011-03-17 10:39:16 <joepie91> and both cheap of course :D
 736 2011-03-17 10:39:30 <joepie91> (oh, and ramhost is not oversold - they publish host node stats, even)
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 740 2011-03-17 10:58:20 <RBecker> ;;bc,blocks
 741 2011-03-17 10:58:21 <gribble> 113864
 742 2011-03-17 11:00:20 Spenvo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 743 2011-03-17 11:02:56 <JFK911> haha now i know gribble's password
 744 2011-03-17 11:04:20 theorbtwo is now known as dudley
 745 2011-03-17 11:04:34 dudley is now known as theorbtwo
 746 2011-03-17 11:24:57 <afed> ;;bc,stats
 747 2011-03-17 11:24:59 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113867 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1044 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 10 hours, 7 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65703.42920083
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 754 2011-03-17 12:05:25 <BlueMatt> firt version of bitcoin-patched uploaded to bitcoin.bluematt.me :)
 755 2011-03-17 12:13:14 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 756 2011-03-17 12:17:57 JohnnyFusion has joined
 757 2011-03-17 12:18:47 <molecular> BlueMatt, nice! What patches are in there?
 758 2011-03-17 12:19:51 <sipa> xlisttransactions, getblockbycount, dumpblock, settxfee, print pow failures, upnp, port
 759 2011-03-17 12:19:54 <BlueMatt> molecular: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/blob/patched/README.md
 760 2011-03-17 12:20:40 <BlueMatt> still need to add monitor* and bitnom but thats for later
 761 2011-03-17 12:22:09 JohnnyFusion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 762 2011-03-17 12:40:18 Avemo has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 763 2011-03-17 12:43:48 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell tcatm when you updated uiproject, you reverted Gavin's commit which changed the copyright date to 2011 from 2010 (uibase.cpp ~line 547 and uiproject.fbp ~line 3348)
 764 2011-03-17 12:44:02 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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 767 2011-03-17 13:03:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I'm assuming the gavin's monitor* patches I should merge are from his github? He appears to have been redoing it but hasn't uploaded the code yet/people use the old version?
 768 2011-03-17 13:03:57 Icon has joined
 769 2011-03-17 13:04:12 <Icon> so i guess  cant use mirc client?
 770 2011-03-17 13:04:21 <BlueMatt> should be able to use anything
 771 2011-03-17 13:04:35 <Icon> well got an old version kept getting connection rufussed
 772 2011-03-17 13:04:36 <sipa> server: irc.freenode.org, channel: #bitcoin-dev, port: 6667
 773 2011-03-17 13:04:41 <Icon> think due to the caption @ login
 774 2011-03-17 13:04:54 <Icon> k ill try that
 775 2011-03-17 13:04:55 <sipa> caption?
 776 2011-03-17 13:05:04 <Icon> via the web log in
 777 2011-03-17 13:05:19 <BlueMatt> Icon: not the web thing, irc clients have to be connected to chat.freenode.net
 778 2011-03-17 13:05:22 <BlueMatt> or irc.freenode.net
 779 2011-03-17 13:06:04 <Icon> k trying thaks for the info
 780 2011-03-17 13:07:25 <Icon> still getting connection refussed think it be my very old mirc cleint its like version 6.03
 781 2011-03-17 13:07:35 <BlueMatt> should work
 782 2011-03-17 13:07:35 <Icon> think they are to version 7x or something now
 783 2011-03-17 13:07:42 <BlueMatt> google freenode mirc 6 or somethin
 784 2011-03-17 13:07:44 <BlueMatt> g
 785 2011-03-17 13:07:58 <Icon> i'll try the new version alos i dont have my ident port open that might be it
 786 2011-03-17 13:08:18 <BlueMatt> shouldnt matter in the slightest
 787 2011-03-17 13:08:54 <sipa> in fact, even if you were using the original irc client from 1994, it should work :p
 788 2011-03-17 13:09:10 <BlueMatt> http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml
 789 2011-03-17 13:09:38 <Icon> think i got it been a while since i used irc
 790 2011-03-17 13:09:50 <Icon> had to select server after i edited the info :)
 791 2011-03-17 13:10:40 Lord_Icon has joined
 792 2011-03-17 13:10:50 <Icon> there i am :)
 793 2011-03-17 13:10:50 FellowTraveler has joined
 794 2011-03-17 13:11:07 <Icon> well off the web mirc thanks again all
 795 2011-03-17 13:11:13 Lord_Icon has quit (Client Quit)
 796 2011-03-17 13:11:21 Icon has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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 800 2011-03-17 13:22:09 <joepie91> now I might be stupid
 801 2011-03-17 13:22:15 <joepie91> but he connects to .org?
 802 2011-03-17 13:22:28 <joepie91> that should be .net, right?
 803 2011-03-17 13:25:23 Lord_Icon has joined
 804 2011-03-17 13:25:45 <Lord_Icon> well think i got it all :)
 805 2011-03-17 13:25:55 <Lord_Icon> someone had Icon nick :(
 806 2011-03-17 13:26:21 <Lord_Icon> so think generation 100btc in under a week is lucky or just i am just that good :)
 807 2011-03-17 13:26:31 <joepie91> ..
 808 2011-03-17 13:26:32 <joepie91> that is
 809 2011-03-17 13:26:34 <joepie91> lucky afaik
 810 2011-03-17 13:26:35 <joepie91> lol
 811 2011-03-17 13:26:40 BlueMatt has joined
 812 2011-03-17 13:26:41 <joepie91> or good
 813 2011-03-17 13:26:42 <joepie91> no idea
 814 2011-03-17 13:27:02 <joepie91> but I can't see my bitcoin instance generating 100btc anytime soon :P
 815 2011-03-17 13:27:18 <Lord_Icon> do have a question though
 816 2011-03-17 13:27:43 <Lord_Icon> the 100 blocks needed to wait per win does that prevent me from winning another 50 btc during that wait time?
 817 2011-03-17 13:27:57 <BlueMatt> no
 818 2011-03-17 13:27:59 * joepie91 has never generated a btc at all and is completely clueless on the matter
 819 2011-03-17 13:28:26 <Lord_Icon> also the first time i won i noticed i got 50.01 btc this time its just even 50.00
 820 2011-03-17 13:29:09 <dsg> You got 0.01 in transaction fee
 821 2011-03-17 13:29:37 <Lord_Icon> ah well thats good :0
 822 2011-03-17 13:29:40 <joepie91> ok, so I am going to work on an automated bitcoin payment gateway. Anything I should know?
 823 2011-03-17 13:29:54 <joepie91> things to avoid etc
 824 2011-03-17 13:30:05 <Lord_Icon> ya using an simi old 5670 i think ati card to do gpu minning
 825 2011-03-17 13:31:34 <BlueMatt> joepie91: dont do it if you have to ask, making a secure payment systems is not easy
 826 2011-03-17 13:32:02 <joepie91> I know :)
 827 2011-03-17 13:32:07 <joepie91> the concept I have should work
 828 2011-03-17 13:32:16 <joepie91> it's just that there might be something I'm overlooking
 829 2011-03-17 13:32:33 <joepie91> and multiple people know more than one
 830 2011-03-17 13:32:57 <BlueMatt> joepie91: and you have to make sure you protect properly against XSS and use https and  and and
 831 2011-03-17 13:33:22 <joepie91> yes, I know that
 832 2011-03-17 13:33:26 <joepie91> but that's pretty much standard practice
 833 2011-03-17 13:33:34 <joepie91> I more specifically meant something related to bitcoin itself
 834 2011-03-17 13:34:04 <BlueMatt> joepie91: ok, just wanted to make sure
 835 2011-03-17 13:34:14 <joepie91> and as the system won't require any accounts at all, the XSS part suddenly becomes a lot less dangerous :)
 836 2011-03-17 13:34:21 <joepie91> it will have a twopass callback system
 837 2011-03-17 13:34:27 <joepie91> I believe the same way paypal does it
 838 2011-03-17 13:34:27 <BlueMatt> I really don't want any noobs making a payemnt processor and messing it up
 839 2011-03-17 13:34:36 <joepie91> no, I'll be ok with that :P
 840 2011-03-17 13:34:44 <BlueMatt> ok, good
 841 2011-03-17 13:34:51 <joepie91> idea is to either make the system send an email to the customer when the payment is received, or make a callback
 842 2011-03-17 13:34:59 <BlueMatt> In terms of bitcoin, the best way right now is to generate a new address for each payment
 843 2011-03-17 13:35:11 <joepie91> if a callback is made, it requests a certain page at another site, and that site will then have to send a request back to the gateway to confirm the callback was legit
 844 2011-03-17 13:35:16 <BlueMatt> for large payments make sure you get a couple confirms first
 845 2011-03-17 13:35:26 <joepie91> I will most likely use 6 confirms for every transaction
 846 2011-03-17 13:35:31 <joepie91> to be completely on the safe side
 847 2011-03-17 13:35:34 <BlueMatt> fair enough
 848 2011-03-17 13:35:43 <joepie91> if the system uses callbacks, processing time is not very relevant anyway
 849 2011-03-17 13:35:59 <joepie91> as long as the sites that implement them, tolerate the processing time
 850 2011-03-17 13:36:18 <joepie91> can't have your order time out after 10 minutes :P
 851 2011-03-17 13:36:30 <BlueMatt> or you could allow low small txes to have just 1-2 confirms
 852 2011-03-17 13:36:39 <joepie91> ye, I will look into that
 853 2011-03-17 13:36:46 <joepie91> maybe let the seller pick between 2 and 6
 854 2011-03-17 13:36:48 <joepie91> or something
 855 2011-03-17 13:37:04 <BlueMatt> sounds good to me
 856 2011-03-17 13:37:15 <joepie91> depending on whether processing time, or confirmation, is more important to him
 857 2011-03-17 13:37:39 <BlueMatt> really nothing too complicated about bitcoin, just new address for each transfer and check that it has been filled
 858 2011-03-17 13:37:44 <joepie91> also, there won't be any processing fees, except for maybe 1 or 2 btc cents to give the payments priority.. but nothing will end up at me
 859 2011-03-17 13:37:48 <joepie91> hm, ok
 860 2011-03-17 13:37:51 <joepie91> should be easy enough then
 861 2011-03-17 13:38:44 <joepie91> any suggestion on where to get cheap recognized ssl certificates?
 862 2011-03-17 13:39:02 <joepie91> I can get one issued by anonops, but their root certificates are not trusted by most systems
 863 2011-03-17 13:39:04 <BlueMatt> though make sure to prevent dos in that someone might just make you generate a TON of addresses
 864 2011-03-17 13:39:13 <BlueMatt> startssl is free and good
 865 2011-03-17 13:39:22 <joepie91> recognized too?
 866 2011-03-17 13:39:27 <BlueMatt> yep
 867 2011-03-17 13:39:47 <BlueMatt> I prefer CACert but they are also not recognized
 868 2011-03-17 13:40:01 <joepie91> ye
 869 2011-03-17 13:40:11 <joepie91> if I wouldn't need recognized certs I'd have asked anonops :P
 870 2011-03-17 13:40:17 <joepie91> they already offered free SSL certs
 871 2011-03-17 13:40:23 <joepie91> but ye... a trusted cert is probably better
 872 2011-03-17 13:40:33 Lord_Icon has quit ()
 873 2011-03-17 13:41:05 <joepie91> and about the site being secure.... to date, none of my websites has been successfully exploited
 874 2011-03-17 13:41:39 <joepie91> so that should be ok
 875 2011-03-17 13:41:39 <BlueMatt> are they popular targets?
 876 2011-03-17 13:41:43 <joepie91> anonnews is :)
 877 2011-03-17 13:42:02 <BlueMatt> oh you run anonnews?
 878 2011-03-17 13:42:05 <joepie91> yup
 879 2011-03-17 13:42:53 <joepie91> which desperately needs SSL, but the issue is with certificate vendors invalidating certificates
 880 2011-03-17 13:43:00 <joepie91> whenever they spot anything related to anonymous
 881 2011-03-17 13:43:11 <joepie91> which is... annoying
 882 2011-03-17 13:43:27 <BlueMatt> really>
 883 2011-03-17 13:43:27 <BlueMatt> ?
 884 2011-03-17 13:44:48 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 885 2011-03-17 13:45:06 <joepie91> yup
 886 2011-03-17 13:45:16 <joepie91> anonops can give out a cert, but the issue is that they are not trusted..
 887 2011-03-17 13:45:32 <joepie91> but I don't think I really have a choice :/
 888 2011-03-17 13:46:14 <BlueMatt> startssl canceled it?
 889 2011-03-17 13:47:28 <joepie91> haven't tried startssl yet, but so far apparently every provider has been pressured (by governments?) to pull out the certificates
 890 2011-03-17 13:47:51 <joepie91> and judging from what I've seen, pretty much any registered company that offers SSL certs will be an issue
 891 2011-03-17 13:48:46 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
 892 2011-03-17 13:49:02 <dsg> joepie91: Do you have links to these cases? Were these domains only domain-control validated or org/person validated?
 893 2011-03-17 13:49:14 <dsg> This is news to me, and quite serious if true
 894 2011-03-17 13:49:15 <joepie91> not documented on the internet, afaik
 895 2011-03-17 13:49:46 <joepie91> but I often talk to a few opers on anonops :P
 896 2011-03-17 13:49:50 <joepie91> (my support channel runs there)
 897 2011-03-17 13:49:56 <joepie91> and I am not sure how they were validated
 898 2011-03-17 13:50:04 <dsg> hmk. Please do encourage them to report these abuses so the world will know.
 899 2011-03-17 13:50:06 <joepie91> but it's ridiculous how much pressure governments can exert anyway
 900 2011-03-17 13:50:13 <joepie91> mye... I'll talk about it indeed
 901 2011-03-17 13:50:18 <joepie91> might very well be worth it to document it
 902 2011-03-17 13:50:28 <joepie91> but often it's terminated for "illegal activity"
 903 2011-03-17 13:50:38 <joepie91> that's how the domains were seized
 904 2011-03-17 13:50:45 <joepie91> s/seized/somehow disabled/
 905 2011-03-17 13:51:22 <dsg> Sure, I know about the domains, but the SSL certs are news to me.
 906 2011-03-17 13:51:28 Cerebrum_ has joined
 907 2011-03-17 13:51:42 <joepie91> I don't know the full story - and I won't claim I do - but as far as I know, the SSL certs were pulled out
 908 2011-03-17 13:51:45 <Cerebrum_> Good morning
 909 2011-03-17 13:51:56 <joepie91> that is why they set up their own root cert, and why they advised me to not get ssl certs from a company
 910 2011-03-17 13:52:04 <joepie91> morning
 911 2011-03-17 13:52:31 <joepie91> but it doesn't appear that many companies are friendly to anonymous :P
 912 2011-03-17 13:52:38 <joepie91> google adsense flagged my account for "hateful content"
 913 2011-03-17 13:52:43 <joepie91> being a comment page on anonnews
 914 2011-03-17 13:53:09 <joepie91> apparently even the german pirate party has announced operation payback is not welcome on their etherpad service
 915 2011-03-17 13:53:14 <joepie91> but that is not completely verified yet
 916 2011-03-17 13:53:35 <joepie91> I believe santrex kicked a nameserver off their servers for anonleaks
 917 2011-03-17 13:53:42 <joepie91> and several other anonymous-related services
 918 2011-03-17 13:54:11 <Cerebrum_> So... I am somewhat confused about how you might get the sender's bitcoin address when you get a bitcoin transaction... does anyone know how to do that?
 919 2011-03-17 13:54:15 <joepie91> linode urged the programmer of the anonleaks search to remove the search or their server would be cancelled
 920 2011-03-17 13:54:17 <joepie91> and so on, and so on
 921 2011-03-17 13:54:41 <Cerebrum_> I was looking at the RPC calls available, but it doesn't look like those will give me the address of the sender
 922 2011-03-17 13:54:42 <joepie91> also, seconding Cerebrum_'s question... do transactions even have a sender address?
 923 2011-03-17 13:55:14 <Cerebrum_> Well, I'm assuming that they do. How else would you figure out who the bitcoins came from if you were running an exchange esrvice?
 924 2011-03-17 13:55:29 <FellowTraveler> you create a new address each time to receive
 925 2011-03-17 13:55:35 jostmey has joined
 926 2011-03-17 13:55:41 <FellowTraveler> that way you know who sent the funds, because that's the only person you gave that address to.
 927 2011-03-17 13:55:41 <joepie91> ^
 928 2011-03-17 13:56:10 <joepie91> you can only see the sender in a transaction that is sent to an IP, right?
 929 2011-03-17 13:56:27 <joepie91> at least, according to what I've seen in my transfers
 930 2011-03-17 13:56:34 <Cerebrum_> I see. That's a somewhat strange model. But I'll work with it.
 931 2011-03-17 13:56:40 <joepie91> (none of my transfers carries a sender according to the bitcoin software)
 932 2011-03-17 13:56:44 <FellowTraveler> it's strange, but that's bitcoin.
 933 2011-03-17 13:57:00 <joepie91> heh, I've told a few people about it now... people find it incredibly hard to understand bitcoin
 934 2011-03-17 13:57:20 <FellowTraveler> it will be easy when the GUI is there.
 935 2011-03-17 13:57:22 <joepie91> oddly, the questions aren't even "how does it work technically"
 936 2011-03-17 13:57:23 <Cerebrum_> LoL, I told an economics professor about it
 937 2011-03-17 13:57:32 <joepie91> but more like "how can people accept that?"
 938 2011-03-17 13:57:41 <Cerebrum_> He thought I was bats until I told him about the returns I mad investing when they were still cheap
 939 2011-03-17 13:57:42 <joepie91> FellowTraveler: the windows software has a GUI?
 940 2011-03-17 13:57:49 <joepie91> heh
 941 2011-03-17 13:57:51 <Cerebrum_> Then he wanted to know where he could watch hte markets
 942 2011-03-17 13:57:54 <joepie91> haha
 943 2011-03-17 13:57:54 gr0gmint has joined
 944 2011-03-17 13:58:07 <FellowTraveler> joepie91 my point is that when someone makes a GUI that is easy, then people will see bitcoin as easy
 945 2011-03-17 13:58:21 <joepie91> well... tbh, the "standard" bitcoin software is dead easy
 946 2011-03-17 13:58:29 <joepie91> I don't think it will come much easier
 947 2011-03-17 13:58:36 <FellowTraveler> it can be more intuitive obviously
 948 2011-03-17 13:58:38 <joepie91> except for maybe a wallet backup feature so that people don't have to write their own scripts
 949 2011-03-17 13:59:03 <joepie91> mh... the bitcoin software pretty much consists of a transaction list, a send button, and an address list :P
 950 2011-03-17 14:02:30 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
 951 2011-03-17 14:04:31 <tcatm> BlueMatt: do you know git well enough to fix my about dialog mess? i.e. can I re-apply that commit somehow?
 952 2011-03-17 14:05:05 <BlueMatt> tcatm: cant reapply the commit, just change the two lines to 2011
 953 2011-03-17 14:05:16 <BlueMatt> well AFAIK I dont know git that well
 954 2011-03-17 14:06:54 * joepie91 wants a solar power setup
 955 2011-03-17 14:07:16 <vrs> BlueMatt: still need hosting?
 956 2011-03-17 14:07:58 <BlueMatt> vrs: no, validus hooked me up
 957 2011-03-17 14:08:02 <BlueMatt> vrs: thanks though
 958 2011-03-17 14:08:15 <BlueMatt> unless you have some really fast speeds
 959 2011-03-17 14:09:37 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 960 2011-03-17 14:10:30 <mizerydearia> Would anyone like to beta test the charity implementation?
 961 2011-03-17 14:10:47 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 962 2011-03-17 14:13:01 <mizerydearia> bitcoinbulletin, bitcoinbulletin.com?
 963 2011-03-17 14:14:26 jostmey has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 964 2011-03-17 14:16:33 BlueMatt has joined
 965 2011-03-17 14:17:40 <tcatm> BlueMatt: looks like your patched bitcoind is actually a 64bit binary
 966 2011-03-17 14:17:56 <BlueMatt> oh oops
 967 2011-03-17 14:18:10 <BlueMatt> compiled it on my laptop and forgot it's not my vm
 968 2011-03-17 14:18:45 <BlueMatt> yea I'll change that when I get home
 969 2011-03-17 14:18:58 <rli1> ;;bc,stats
 970 2011-03-17 14:19:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113882 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1029 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 6 hours, 56 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65713.48205269
 971 2011-03-17 14:19:10 <Aciid> Nefario: If you bring the chinese users to Bitcoin, be adviced to support them.
 972 2011-03-17 14:20:48 <CIA-95> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rb7ebc66 / (uibase.cpp uiproject.fbp): Update copyright in About box from 2010 to 2011 - http://bit.ly/dFj5Lv
 973 2011-03-17 14:21:41 Tesla_ has joined
 974 2011-03-17 14:21:46 <tcatm> BlueMatt: gitk (I think it does git cherry-pick) can re-apply a commit :)
 975 2011-03-17 14:22:57 <Aciid> where do these chinese people keep coming from
 976 2011-03-17 14:23:00 <BlueMatt> tcatm not sure if the original commit had more than just the two lines but that would be simpler in any case
 977 2011-03-17 14:23:08 <Tesla_> I just downloaded bitcoin and I noticed it's taking quite a while to download all the blocks. As the amount of blocks linearly grows, will the time it takes to download them all and "get going" also increase?
 978 2011-03-17 14:23:16 <Aciid> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?board=5.0
 979 2011-03-17 14:24:02 <joepie91> Tesla_ probably yes I guess
 980 2011-03-17 14:24:09 <joepie91> but you'll only have to get them in the start :)
 981 2011-03-17 14:24:32 <Tesla_> but if bitcoins ever grows to become a worldwide currency, is that sustainable?
 982 2011-03-17 14:25:21 <BlueMatt> tesla_ get the blockchain nightly from bitcoin.bluematt.me ;)
 983 2011-03-17 14:25:41 <sipa> Tesla_: people won't be running clients that store the whole block chain anymore, probably
 984 2011-03-17 14:26:30 <Tesla_> oh, I see. Because there will be enough clients for it to be broken apart?
 985 2011-03-17 14:26:39 <vrs> BlueMatt: 100mbit unmetered
 986 2011-03-17 14:26:58 <vrs> and another 100mbit with a 10tb limit :)
 987 2011-03-17 14:27:07 <BlueMatt> vrs oooo wow well I could always use a mirror
 988 2011-03-17 14:28:44 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 989 2011-03-17 14:29:13 <Tesla_> Am I correct in thinking that?
 990 2011-03-17 14:29:16 <BlueMatt> vrs if you don't mind letting me use it as a webserver...I'll be home in around 30 min, can you msg me then?
 991 2011-03-17 14:30:08 <BlueMatt> tesla_ no, it's just that a regular client who just sends and recieves money doesn't really need the blockchain
 992 2011-03-17 14:30:22 <vrs> you got a query :)
 993 2011-03-17 14:30:48 <Tesla_> Oh, I see. Thanks for that answer (:
 994 2011-03-17 14:36:49 Cerebrum_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 995 2011-03-17 14:38:26 larsivi has joined
 996 2011-03-17 14:38:26 <joepie91> hrm
 997 2011-03-17 14:38:27 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
 998 2011-03-17 14:38:29 <joepie91> worldwide currency...
 999 2011-03-17 14:38:38 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113885 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1026 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 6 hours, 21 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65797.03960168
1000 2011-03-17 14:38:44 <joepie91> I am not sure if 21 million btc would be enough to provide btc for a whole world population
1001 2011-03-17 14:39:09 <BlueMatt> you can divide it up to 8 decimal places
1002 2011-03-17 14:39:09 <sipa> it is divisible to 0.00000001 BTC
1003 2011-03-17 14:39:21 <joepie91> I kno
1004 2011-03-17 14:39:22 <joepie91> know*
1005 2011-03-17 14:39:28 <joepie91> but I think that when it suddenly catches on
1006 2011-03-17 14:39:38 <joepie91> you'd get an extreme change of the worth of a BTC
1007 2011-03-17 14:39:49 <joepie91> I'm not an expert at economics though :P
1008 2011-03-17 14:39:49 <EvanR-work> fifth time this week someone complained about 21 million not being enough
1009 2011-03-17 14:39:50 <sipa> which means that if 21M BTC were to correspond to the entire USD M2 supply now, a penny would be close to 0.00000001 BTC
1010 2011-03-17 14:39:55 <joepie91> no, not a complaint
1011 2011-03-17 14:40:01 <EvanR-work> same thing every week ;)
1012 2011-03-17 14:40:01 <joepie91> just something to think about :)
1013 2011-03-17 14:40:07 <joepie91> mhh
1014 2011-03-17 14:40:13 <joepie91> I think it's good to keep people thinking about it
1015 2011-03-17 14:40:17 <sipa> of course
1016 2011-03-17 14:40:28 <EvanR-work> nah, screw it
1017 2011-03-17 14:40:28 <joepie91> it makes people not blindly follow something like a drone and not care about how it works
1018 2011-03-17 14:40:29 <joepie91> :)
1019 2011-03-17 14:40:40 <EvanR-work> have faith my son
1020 2011-03-17 14:40:51 * EvanR-work hands joepie91 a red cup of koolaid
1021 2011-03-17 14:41:05 <luke-jr> joepie91: microBTC are
1022 2011-03-17 14:41:19 <joepie91> lol
1023 2011-03-17 14:41:20 <luke-jr> joepie91: we've already had some extreme changes
1024 2011-03-17 14:41:25 xelister has joined
1025 2011-03-17 14:41:27 <joepie91> no such thing as koolaid around here
1026 2011-03-17 14:41:39 <xelister> market crashing? ;)
1027 2011-03-17 14:41:40 <joepie91> ah
1028 2011-03-17 14:41:55 <Strom> the fact that it has to be fractions is bad in terms of marketing imo
1029 2011-03-17 14:41:56 <EvanR-work> gribble should have a command to link to a full discussion about the 21million and 8decimal places 'problem'
1030 2011-03-17 14:42:00 <joepie91> I can imagine a slashdot / reddit frontpage of bitcoin would crash the market somewhat
1031 2011-03-17 14:42:10 <joepie91> :P
1032 2011-03-17 14:42:17 <sipa> joepie91: bitcoin has been slashdotted twice
1033 2011-03-17 14:42:22 <Strom> you might be able to explain the value situation to some people, but most will just not like it because the absolute number is small
1034 2011-03-17 14:42:24 <EvanR-work> slash dot had two bitcoin articles, and it was good, not bad
1035 2011-03-17 14:42:34 <EvanR-work> Strom: like grams of gold? ;)
1036 2011-03-17 14:42:43 <sipa> you can see the first one here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed.png
1037 2011-03-17 14:42:44 <EvanR-work> is like 40 dollars
1038 2011-03-17 14:43:01 <Strom> EvanR-work, yeah like grams of gold sure ... nobody has ever offered me gold for anything
1039 2011-03-17 14:43:17 <Strom> it's a niche thing
1040 2011-03-17 14:43:19 <EvanR-work> its a presentational thing
1041 2011-03-17 14:43:29 <EvanR-work> if you change the units, people will not be afraid anymore
1042 2011-03-17 14:43:36 <joepie91> hm
1043 2011-03-17 14:43:41 <EvanR-work> i have 3000000000 microcoins or so
1044 2011-03-17 14:43:42 <joepie91> maybe introduce some sort of pseudo-bitcoin
1045 2011-03-17 14:43:43 <EvanR-work> im rich!
1046 2011-03-17 14:43:44 <Strom> sure, but that's what I'm saying EvanR-work
1047 2011-03-17 14:43:53 <joepie91> that is basically 1/10000th of a bitcoin
1048 2011-03-17 14:43:54 <Strom> that it's not presented in a marketable way currently
1049 2011-03-17 14:43:58 <joepie91> it is not a different currency
1050 2011-03-17 14:44:06 <joepie91> just a more tangible way for the average btc user
1051 2011-03-17 14:44:13 <Blitzboom> ;;bc,stats
1052 2011-03-17 14:44:14 <EvanR-work> Strom: ok but its not a fundamental weakenss
1053 2011-03-17 14:44:16 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113885 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1026 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 6 hours, 21 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 65797.03960168
1054 2011-03-17 14:44:26 <joepie91> and ye, like microcoins
1055 2011-03-17 14:44:39 <joepie91> but in a way that people can actually _enter_ a value in that currency in their clients etc
1056 2011-03-17 14:45:03 <EvanR-work> all it takes it a client update
1057 2011-03-17 14:45:11 <Strom> EvanR-work, it's not a fundamental weakness if we change the way it works fast and then stick to it ... otherwise it'll be like zimbabwe's currency .. with zeroes being added weekly
1058 2011-03-17 14:45:35 <joepie91> I think you don't have to change the currency, ever
1059 2011-03-17 14:45:40 <EvanR-work> presentation isnt going to help anything if it turns into zimbabwe
1060 2011-03-17 14:45:43 <joepie91> you just have to change the _perception_ of the currency
1061 2011-03-17 14:45:59 <EvanR-work> if it has value it has value, doesnt matter how you write it down
1062 2011-03-17 14:46:19 <EvanR-work> also, it wont be zimbabwe since you cant produce unlimitted coins
1063 2011-03-17 14:46:48 <joepie91> of course it has value
1064 2011-03-17 14:46:52 <joepie91> but it has to be tangible for end users
1065 2011-03-17 14:46:55 <Strom> EvanR-work, I understand that it if it has value then it has value, but what I'm arguing is that this argument will not work on most people
1066 2011-03-17 14:47:01 <Strom> they want comparable numbers to what they know
1067 2011-03-17 14:47:08 <joepie91> it's going to be incredibly hard to say "this game consols costs 0.000000011 bitcoins"
1068 2011-03-17 14:47:11 <Strom> otherwise it will be too much change to even bother to try to use it
1069 2011-03-17 14:47:14 <EvanR-work> Strom: are you talking about americans?
1070 2011-03-17 14:47:21 <EvanR-work> and USD?
1071 2011-03-17 14:47:28 <joepie91> you could more easily say "this game console costs 11 micro-bitcoins"
1072 2011-03-17 14:47:30 <joepie91> even if it's the same
1073 2011-03-17 14:47:43 <Blitzboom> we’ll just make µbitcoins, millibitcoins etc.
1074 2011-03-17 14:47:44 <EvanR-work> 0.000011 is microcoins
1075 2011-03-17 14:47:59 <Strom> EvanR-work, well I'm talking about people in general but sure we could use americans and USD as an example
1076 2011-03-17 14:48:12 <EvanR-work> thats a little myopic
1077 2011-03-17 14:48:37 <joepie91> I'd just say uBTC
1078 2011-03-17 14:48:43 <joepie91> it's not a different currency
1079 2011-03-17 14:48:45 <Blitzboom> if the value of bitcoins surpasses dollar-parity again, we should make 0.001 possible
1080 2011-03-17 14:48:46 <EvanR-work> look at what people pay and how their money works in other countries, they have larger numeric values and they go through regular revaluations ;)
1081 2011-03-17 14:48:48 <joepie91> it's just BTC divided by a certain number
1082 2011-03-17 14:48:59 <joepie91> it's a notation, not an alternative currency
1083 2011-03-17 14:49:10 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: thats planned for next version of the client, if i heard right
1084 2011-03-17 14:49:11 <joepie91> when there are enough coins in circulation, I mean
1085 2011-03-17 14:49:19 <Blitzboom> EvanR-work: the next version?
1086 2011-03-17 14:49:32 <EvanR-work> to let you type in less than 0.01
1087 2011-03-17 14:49:33 <UukGoblin> I started a forum thread about uBTC and the like a while ago
1088 2011-03-17 14:49:46 <Blitzboom> yeah, i think we need that for NANOpayments ;)
1089 2011-03-17 14:50:08 <Blitzboom> it’s just cool to tip someone with tenth a cent
1090 2011-03-17 14:50:20 <BlueMatt> and pay .01 in fees
1091 2011-03-17 14:50:32 <Blitzboom> can’t you pay less?
1092 2011-03-17 14:50:47 <joepie91> I don't think you'd want to pay less anymore
1093 2011-03-17 14:50:48 <BlueMatt> not if outputs are <.01
1094 2011-03-17 14:50:51 <joepie91> 0.01 is now standard anyway
1095 2011-03-17 14:50:57 <xelister> guys \o/
1096 2011-03-17 14:50:57 <EvanR-work> you can avoid the fee if you send something like 10.001 ;)
1097 2011-03-17 14:51:05 <xelister> Im inventing an escroow service using btc, woot?
1098 2011-03-17 14:51:07 <joepie91> so anything with 0.01 will take priority over your 0.000001 fee, right?
1099 2011-03-17 14:51:09 <Blitzboom> is this fee arbitrary?
1100 2011-03-17 14:51:10 <BlueMatt> it's largely for pools
1101 2011-03-17 14:51:14 <joepie91> xelister: good
1102 2011-03-17 14:51:18 <joepie91> I'm going to work on a payment gateway :P
1103 2011-03-17 14:51:24 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: i think its a miner policy
1104 2011-03-17 14:51:34 <xelister> friend (of friend)  is in UK nas has £ in UK bank.       He wants quickly to give PLN in PL to someone.   How to?
1105 2011-03-17 14:51:47 <Strom> EvanR-work, I live in estonia personally and I have used three currencies in my lifetime, from russian rubles to estonian kroons to euroes
1106 2011-03-17 14:51:55 <EvanR-work> so no problem?
1107 2011-03-17 14:52:01 <Strom> so I think it's fair to say I'm aware of how different currencies and the number changes work
1108 2011-03-17 14:52:06 <EvanR-work> all those have roughly USD numbers though
1109 2011-03-17 14:52:20 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: nano is impossible
1110 2011-03-17 14:52:20 <EvanR-work> people in general wont be afraid of large numbers
1111 2011-03-17 14:52:34 <joepie91> large numbers =/= long numbers
1112 2011-03-17 14:52:42 <joepie91> 100000000 uBTC won't be a problem
1113 2011-03-17 14:52:47 <joepie91> 0.00000001 BTC most likely will
1114 2011-03-17 14:52:47 <EvanR-work> im talking about large numbers like microcoins
1115 2011-03-17 14:53:02 <EvanR-work> (and your strings have the same length there basically)
1116 2011-03-17 14:53:06 <joepie91> yes, it does
1117 2011-03-17 14:53:08 <joepie91> that is what I am saying
1118 2011-03-17 14:53:12 <joepie91> long numbers =/= large numbers
1119 2011-03-17 14:53:16 chaord has joined
1120 2011-03-17 14:53:19 <joepie91> the latter will feel like "nothing" to people
1121 2011-03-17 14:53:19 <EvanR-work> yes hows that related
1122 2011-03-17 14:53:25 <Blitzboom> 0.001 would be milli
1123 2011-03-17 14:53:27 <joepie91> because they are too used to other currencies
1124 2011-03-17 14:53:40 <joepie91> I cannot think of _any_ currencies that have that many decimals
1125 2011-03-17 14:53:44 <EvanR-work> it works this way in science and engineering
1126 2011-03-17 14:53:48 FellowTraveler has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1127 2011-03-17 14:53:49 <EvanR-work> you just change units when you get below 1
1128 2011-03-17 14:53:58 <joepie91> yes, exactly
1129 2011-03-17 14:53:59 <joepie91> hence
1130 2011-03-17 14:54:00 <joepie91> uBTC
1131 2011-03-17 14:54:02 <EvanR-work> done
1132 2011-03-17 14:54:06 <EvanR-work> sorted
1133 2011-03-17 14:54:21 <joepie91> instead of saying "you owe me 0.0000001BTC for that game console" you say "you owe me 1 uBTC for that console"
1134 2011-03-17 14:54:28 <EvanR-work> you mean 0.000001
1135 2011-03-17 14:54:32 <joepie91> completely arbitrary number of zeroes I used there
1136 2011-03-17 14:54:41 <joepie91> it's an example
1137 2011-03-17 14:55:05 <joepie91> this will only be relevant when BTC rise a lot more in worth
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1139 2011-03-17 14:55:10 <luke-jr> joepie91: or if Tonal gains widespread adoption, you could just use TBC! :D
1140 2011-03-17 14:55:12 <joepie91> but it should be possible
1141 2011-03-17 14:55:17 <joepie91> as soon as possible
1142 2011-03-17 14:55:19 <Blitzboom> i hope we will use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix#List_of_SI_prefixes
1143 2011-03-17 14:55:20 <joepie91> or you will be too late to the party
1144 2011-03-17 14:55:25 <joepie91> mh
1145 2011-03-17 14:55:26 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: I hope SI will die
1146 2011-03-17 14:55:30 <joepie91> I'd stick to 1 or maybe 2 pseudocurrencies
1147 2011-03-17 14:55:34 <joepie91> no more
1148 2011-03-17 14:55:36 <EvanR-work> i correctly predicted to appearance of TBTC with my statistical model here
1149 2011-03-17 14:55:37 <Blitzboom> luke-jr: why?
1150 2011-03-17 14:55:51 <luke-jr> Blitzboom: because it's decimal crap
1151 2011-03-17 14:56:11 <Blitzboom> tonal troll
1152 2011-03-17 14:56:17 <xelister> >_>
1153 2011-03-17 14:56:37 <Blitzboom> decimal will not die in the forseeable future, just like qwertz-keyboards
1154 2011-03-17 14:56:39 <Blitzboom> deal with it
1155 2011-03-17 14:56:46 <joepie91> xelister: what was your idea for the escrow?
1156 2011-03-17 14:56:50 <Blitzboom> qwerty*
1157 2011-03-17 14:56:54 <EvanR-work> i said the calendar was crap and so switched to 'metric time', that is, integer number of seconds past an epoch, but i eventually found i could not actually use it personally so i gave up
1158 2011-03-17 14:56:57 <xelister> joepie91: well question above... is there easy solution to it?
1159 2011-03-17 14:57:01 <EvanR-work> i wonder if luke-jr is any good at tonal
1160 2011-03-17 14:57:08 <joepie91> no idea
1161 2011-03-17 14:57:16 <joepie91> I am not that actively using btc yet
1162 2011-03-17 14:57:26 <EvanR-work> Blitzboom: thing is decimal isnt even nearly as bad as qwerty
1163 2011-03-17 14:57:29 <joepie91> nor do I exchange other currencies often
1164 2011-03-17 14:57:32 <joepie91> (eurofag here)
1165 2011-03-17 14:57:42 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: it's most of the way there
1166 2011-03-17 14:57:50 <joepie91> my only currency exchanges are euro's to USD for hosting
1167 2011-03-17 14:58:07 <luke-jr> joepie91: could get hosting for BTC from me
1168 2011-03-17 14:58:09 <EvanR-work> its just a writing system, everyone can read and write it, we all have number sense which is transcends how its written
1169 2011-03-17 14:58:21 <joepie91> luke-jr: already got my hosting :) I have several VPSes
1170 2011-03-17 14:58:29 <joepie91> and I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket
1171 2011-03-17 14:58:38 <joepie91> so my hosting is spread over several hosts, datacenters, and even countries
1172 2011-03-17 14:59:11 <joepie91> mostly budget hosts though - and no vps in europe anymore
1173 2011-03-17 14:59:19 <joepie91> (shitty host was shitty)
1174 2011-03-17 14:59:30 <EvanR-work> for exact calculations we use computers, and its not worth overhauling the entire worlds writing systems to make it easier for one guy to do his change correctly when hes working at walmart
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1176 2011-03-17 15:00:47 <luke-jr> EvanR-work: you're thinking money too much
1177 2011-03-17 15:01:15 <EvanR-work> its the only place i dont use a computer to get exact numerics
1178 2011-03-17 15:01:31 <EvanR-work> at least since i graduated
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1202 2011-03-17 16:15:46 <forrestv> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkJ2gQVSDxA makes me think of bitcoin :p
1203 2011-03-17 16:17:03 <forrestv> 'But if I work it one more day- I might just break the Chain...'
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1210 2011-03-17 16:34:13 <mtve> would somebody please point me to the right direction - what negative transaction fee meant?   i.e. http://blockexplorer.com/t/9qtGkKDhVx or better http://blockexplorer.com/t/5t5thY5Cn1
1211 2011-03-17 16:35:23 <luke-jr> WTF
1212 2011-03-17 16:35:26 <[Tycho]> Wow, nice :)))
1213 2011-03-17 16:35:37 <nanotube> mtve: that's a spend of a generation tx that had fees in it.
1214 2011-03-17 16:35:41 <luke-jr> oh
1215 2011-03-17 16:35:46 <luke-jr> mtve: that's a generation tx
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1217 2011-03-17 16:35:55 <luke-jr> nanotube: not the spend of
1218 2011-03-17 16:36:06 <nanotube> ah is it the actual gen?
1219 2011-03-17 16:36:07 <mtve> argh, sorry, nevermind.  been coding too much.
1220 2011-03-17 16:36:11 <luke-jr> yes
1221 2011-03-17 16:36:16 <nanotube> ok
1222 2011-03-17 16:36:25 <[Tycho]> Negative fee would be funny :)
1223 2011-03-17 16:36:48 <nanotube> yep, i'd be sending some btc for sure, then. :)
1224 2011-03-17 16:36:53 Lachesis has joined
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1232 2011-03-17 16:56:09 * jgarzik wakes up
1233 2011-03-17 16:56:42 <BlueMatt> good morning jgarzik
1234 2011-03-17 16:57:24 kiba has joined
1235 2011-03-17 16:58:03 <jgarzik> heh
1236 2011-03-17 16:58:11 <jgarzik> someone registered scratchcoin.com on March 1 of this year
1237 2011-03-17 16:58:19 * xelister offers a nice blonde for 100 BTC sire
1238 2011-03-17 16:58:34 <xelister> is it a product for people when they got itches
1239 2011-03-17 16:58:40 <BlueMatt> lol nice
1240 2011-03-17 16:58:52 <BlueMatt> scratchbtc?
1241 2011-03-17 16:59:13 <jgarzik> bitscratch.com is available :)
1242 2011-03-17 16:59:33 <BlueMatt> considering merging your scratch branch into -patched
1243 2011-03-17 16:59:44 <xelister> what is scratch?
1244 2011-03-17 16:59:45 * jgarzik was trying to think of a simple website where you could purchase and redeem scratch-off codes
1245 2011-03-17 16:59:50 <xelister> oh
1246 2011-03-17 17:00:00 <jgarzik> xelister: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4555.0
1247 2011-03-17 17:00:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it creates TX's, but no way to redeem them way (without further programming)...   heck, _I_ have never redeemed one :)
1248 2011-03-17 17:00:51 <BlueMatt> I know hence I haven't merged it yet
1249 2011-03-17 17:01:01 <xelister> jgarzik: interesting.
1250 2011-03-17 17:01:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: up to you, but I'd wait for the redeem bit
1251 2011-03-17 17:01:25 unping has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1252 2011-03-17 17:01:37 <BlueMatt> yea ok then will do that
1253 2011-03-17 17:01:40 <luke-jr> jgarzik: clearcoin with a password behind a scratch-off coupon?
1254 2011-03-17 17:02:00 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: possible with his patch
1255 2011-03-17 17:02:22 <luke-jr> I don't see why it needs a patch
1256 2011-03-17 17:02:34 <BlueMatt> why wouldnt it?
1257 2011-03-17 17:03:42 <BlueMatt> his is on the network, not on an individual service
1258 2011-03-17 17:04:28 <jgarzik> FYI, here is mtve's Perl client:
1259 2011-03-17 17:04:29 <jgarzik> http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/wiki/BitcoinPl.html
1260 2011-03-17 17:04:42 <jgarzik> much farther along than other clients.  it does verify a block chain.
1261 2011-03-17 17:05:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but you still need to trust the card-marker
1262 2011-03-17 17:05:05 <luke-jr> maker*
1263 2011-03-17 17:05:22 <BlueMatt> true
1264 2011-03-17 17:05:49 <luke-jr> I'm thinking for a reliable offline transfer
1265 2011-03-17 17:05:53 <jgarzik> luke-jr: which is the same issue as any spend
1266 2011-03-17 17:05:58 <luke-jr> eg, you don't trust the guy giving you the coupon
1267 2011-03-17 17:06:23 <luke-jr> jgarzik: my thought is, you can be guaranteed by the coupon that the money is there
1268 2011-03-17 17:06:33 <luke-jr> that only works with a trusted third party issuing the coupons
1269 2011-03-17 17:06:39 <xelister> indeed
1270 2011-03-17 17:07:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you could use jgarzik's patch to make this possible and make it redeemable on the net and not on an individual service
1271 2011-03-17 17:08:04 <BlueMatt> that would make it easier for a service to make the cards too
1272 2011-03-17 17:08:25 <luke-jr> true
1273 2011-03-17 17:08:38 <luke-jr> but it IS less secure
1274 2011-03-17 17:08:45 <BlueMatt> than what?
1275 2011-03-17 17:09:03 <luke-jr> than having the issuer use normal addresses
1276 2011-03-17 17:09:31 jostmey has left ()
1277 2011-03-17 17:09:46 <TD> 	@h = map base58::Hash ($h[$_] . $h[$_ + ($_ < $#h)]),
1278 2011-03-17 17:09:46 <TD> 		map $_ * 2, 0 .. $#h / 2
1279 2011-03-17 17:09:46 <TD> 			while @h > 1;
1280 2011-03-17 17:09:47 <TD> heh
1281 2011-03-17 17:09:50 <TD> perl is great ...
1282 2011-03-17 17:10:24 * mtve runs away ashamed
1283 2011-03-17 17:10:25 <luke-jr> ♥ perl
1284 2011-03-17 17:10:28 <luke-jr> mtve: HEY!
1285 2011-03-17 17:10:30 <TD> hehe
1286 2011-03-17 17:10:43 <luke-jr> mtve: come baaaaaack
1287 2011-03-17 17:10:46 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yea, but that doesnt work if you want to send someone a card/offline send if you dont know who it is
1288 2011-03-17 17:10:48 <TD> mtve: it's cool :-)
1289 2011-03-17 17:11:00 <mtve> gotta go home now, bb in two hours.
1290 2011-03-17 17:11:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ?
1291 2011-03-17 17:11:05 <luke-jr> mtve: :/
1292 2011-03-17 17:11:11 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: plus its "heres some bitcoin" to people who dont know bitcoin and have to get into it to get their money back ;)
1293 2011-03-17 17:11:15 <luke-jr> mtve: where is SCM?
1294 2011-03-17 17:11:23 <mtve> wtf is scm?
1295 2011-03-17 17:11:26 <luke-jr> VCS
1296 2011-03-17 17:11:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that works fine
1297 2011-03-17 17:11:46 <mtve> aha, i don't use one.
1298 2011-03-17 17:11:53 <luke-jr> mtve: -.-
1299 2011-03-17 17:12:01 <luke-jr> mtve: pick one and start :P
1300 2011-03-17 17:12:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you just order multiple 10 BTC coupons, and distribute them
1301 2011-03-17 17:12:27 <mtve> ok ok, i promise.  bye.
1302 2011-03-17 17:12:42 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: but if you do cards they dont have to have an account to start with you dont have to wait till you get an address before you can send
1303 2011-03-17 17:12:43 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  you awake?  I've got a git question
1304 2011-03-17 17:13:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: cupons aren't the same as sending cash/scratch off cards
1305 2011-03-17 17:13:03 <validus> you could have them goto a website and register it with a script to auto transfer the funds
1306 2011-03-17 17:13:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: yep
1307 2011-03-17 17:13:24 <gavinandresen> I'm writing a sticky for step-by-step "how to create a pull request for git newbies"
1308 2011-03-17 17:13:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: …
1309 2011-03-17 17:13:44 <gavinandresen> ... and lets say I'm a newbie that did a git clone of the master bitcoin git repo
1310 2011-03-17 17:13:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: these coupons WOULD BE scratchoff
1311 2011-03-17 17:13:51 <BlueMatt> validus: ok, I still prefer jgarzik's patch as its on the network not tied to a specific service
1312 2011-03-17 17:13:52 Lord_Icon has left ()
1313 2011-03-17 17:14:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: so...these cupons would be the same as jgarzik's patch?
1314 2011-03-17 17:14:21 <gavinandresen> Then I went and made some changes to that clone.  Now I want to create a PULL request... what's easiest way?
1315 2011-03-17 17:14:35 <gavinandresen> I've got:  1. Create Fork at github
1316 2011-03-17 17:14:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no
1317 2011-03-17 17:14:55 <gavinandresen> 2. git fetch that into a new branch?
1318 2011-03-17 17:15:05 <TD> mtve: btw i think you still need to calculate best chain using total work done not height
1319 2011-03-17 17:15:20 <gavinandresen> 3. merge (rebase?) master into new branch?
1320 2011-03-17 17:15:30 <gavinandresen> 4. git push new branch?
1321 2011-03-17 17:15:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you go to hardbitcoin.net, order a 10 BTC coupon (paying 10 BTC to their address). they mail you a scratch-off coupon labelled 10 BTC w/ anti-theft stuff
1322 2011-03-17 17:15:35 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: git push git@github.com:jgarzik/bitcoin.git mynewbranch:mynewbranch
1323 2011-03-17 17:15:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: + github pull request button
1324 2011-03-17 17:15:55 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: you and your friends pass that around like cash, knowing securely that that 10 BTC is available
1325 2011-03-17 17:15:57 <joepie91> ummm
1326 2011-03-17 17:16:04 <joepie91> that scratch off card idea
1327 2011-03-17 17:16:06 <joepie91> reminds me of bitmail
1328 2011-03-17 17:16:10 <joepie91> or w/e it was called
1329 2011-03-17 17:16:14 <luke-jr> when someone wants to spend it online, they scratch it off, and login to hardbitcoin.net to cash it
1330 2011-03-17 17:16:27 <jgarzik> luke-jr: too tied to a central service
1331 2011-03-17 17:16:29 <luke-jr> scratched-off coupons are considered void
1332 2011-03-17 17:16:31 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  got it, thanks
1333 2011-03-17 17:16:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: that's inherent in the concept
1334 2011-03-17 17:16:39 <luke-jr> jgarzik: no technology can avoid it
1335 2011-03-17 17:16:41 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I prefer the redeem it from any client
1336 2011-03-17 17:16:53 <BlueMatt> even if its issued by one central source
1337 2011-03-17 17:16:53 <jgarzik> luke-jr: my patch avoids it
1338 2011-03-17 17:17:20 <luke-jr> jgarzik: no, it doesn't.
1339 2011-03-17 17:17:43 <jgarzik> my patch is not tied to a central service.  so yes, my technology does avoid a central service.
1340 2011-03-17 17:17:47 <TD> mtve: i think we're at roughly similar points, progress-wise
1341 2011-03-17 17:18:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: explain how your patch allows Joe to give Fred an offline coupon, which Fred knows is 100% valid even if he doesn't trust Joe
1342 2011-03-17 17:20:34 datathe1st has joined
1343 2011-03-17 17:21:14 <jgarzik> luke-jr: you're changing the goalposts.  You said the concept cannot avoid being tied to a central service.  I produced a patch that's not tied to a central service.
1344 2011-03-17 17:21:27 <jgarzik> The scratch-off concept itself requires the card creator be trusted
1345 2011-03-17 17:21:36 <jgarzik> because they will always known the password
1346 2011-03-17 17:21:42 <jgarzik> know
1347 2011-03-17 17:21:59 <luke-jr> that's the problem
1348 2011-03-17 17:22:04 <luke-jr> I don't see how that's useful
1349 2011-03-17 17:22:37 <sipa> if you do not want to trust any issuer, you just use bitcoin transactions
1350 2011-03-17 17:22:49 <sipa> they solve this problem as good as it can be solved, but the block chain is slow
1351 2011-03-17 17:23:04 <jgarzik> luke-jr: that's ok.  the real world does think scratch-offs are useful :)
1352 2011-03-17 17:23:05 <BlueMatt> I disagree the point is with jgarzik's patch, any provider can issue cards which can be redeemed on any other.  If you dont trust provider x, use provider y
1353 2011-03-17 17:23:44 <sipa> if you do not mind trusting someone (but definitely not everyone), there are many ways to solve the speed problem: scratch-off cards, payment processor, escrow, ...
1354 2011-03-17 17:24:01 <luke-jr> jgarzik: why not just print it? why a scratch-off at all?
1355 2011-03-17 17:24:10 <xelister> luke-jr: so it is seen it's used?
1356 2011-03-17 17:24:17 <datathe1st> ;;bc
1357 2011-03-17 17:24:17 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1358 2011-03-17 17:24:20 <datathe1st> ;;bc,help
1359 2011-03-17 17:24:20 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
1360 2011-03-17 17:24:31 <sipa> so you can verify a scratchoff has money on it, without buying it, for example
1361 2011-03-17 17:24:32 <datathe1st> ;;bc,stats
1362 2011-03-17 17:24:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113906 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 1005 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 0 hours, 54 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66234.37419036
1363 2011-03-17 17:24:39 <joepie91> when you centralize, you have no decentralization
1364 2011-03-17 17:24:39 <joepie91> when you decentralize, your coupon is not backed up by the known legitimacy of the coupon provider
1365 2011-03-17 17:24:41 <joepie91> it depends on your needs
1366 2011-03-17 17:24:48 <jgarzik> luke-jr: my patch allows whatever usage
1367 2011-03-17 17:24:51 <luke-jr> xelister: you have to trust the guy giving it to you, in any case
1368 2011-03-17 17:25:33 <sipa> not if you're allowed to scan it with a blockchain-connected device before buying it
1369 2011-03-17 17:25:38 <luke-jr> joepie91: I don't see any way to have decentralized AND hard-money
1370 2011-03-17 17:25:42 <luke-jr> short of physical commodities
1371 2011-03-17 17:25:47 <joepie91> I don't think there is.
1372 2011-03-17 17:25:52 <joepie91> except when you use natural resources
1373 2011-03-17 17:25:55 <joepie91> aka stone money idea
1374 2011-03-17 17:26:06 <eps1> stonecoin
1375 2011-03-17 17:26:20 <joepie91> would be a bit impractical to have those in storage in your storage room, though
1376 2011-03-17 17:26:26 <joepie91> :)
1377 2011-03-17 17:26:41 <luke-jr> I suppose when there's enough bitcoin users, we could have regular buying/selling for hard commodities like silver
1378 2011-03-17 17:26:49 <luke-jr> spend silver for in-person stuff, and bitcoin online
1379 2011-03-17 17:27:26 <eps1> silvercoin
1380 2011-03-17 17:27:38 <joepie91> the only issue is that bitcoin relies on the internet.
1381 2011-03-17 17:27:43 <joepie91> no internet, no bitcoin.
1382 2011-03-17 17:27:49 <joepie91> which most likely makes it scary for a lot of people
1383 2011-03-17 17:28:00 <joepie91> and leads to people wanting to get their money out of the system as soon as possible
1384 2011-03-17 17:28:31 <BlueMatt> those people aren't exactly the bitcoin target
1385 2011-03-17 17:28:36 <joepie91> mh
1386 2011-03-17 17:28:45 <striped> i have no problem keeping my money in bitcoin...i'd rather have it in bitcoin than paypal or even mtgox or mybitcoin
1387 2011-03-17 17:28:47 <joepie91> if you want bitcoin to grow bigger, you'll have to keep in mind those people as well
1388 2011-03-17 17:28:58 <joepie91> and meh, I don't trust paypal at all
1389 2011-03-17 17:29:02 <BlueMatt> bitcoin is ideal for international buying/selling of internet goods because pp is a pain takes too much cut and is hard to do from zimbabew
1390 2011-03-17 17:29:04 <joepie91> my account _never_ carries over 100 euro
1391 2011-03-17 17:29:17 <joepie91> and bitcoin is especially ideal for things where you need to stay anonymous :)
1392 2011-03-17 17:29:20 <BlueMatt> Zimbabwe*
1393 2011-03-17 17:29:21 <joepie91> example: privacyshark
1394 2011-03-17 17:29:22 <BlueMatt> yea
1395 2011-03-17 17:29:26 <xelister> luke-jr: hmm ... silver?  I would be affraid of forgery when using just silber
1396 2011-03-17 17:29:27 <xelister> silver
1397 2011-03-17 17:29:39 <BlueMatt> we need to get red eclipse to accept bitcoin donations
1398 2011-03-17 17:29:42 <xelister> joepie91: bitcoin is NOT anonymous by default
1399 2011-03-17 17:29:53 <BlueMatt> its a new awsome floss game which was released 1.0 like 2 days ago
1400 2011-03-17 17:30:01 <xelister> you need   1) speciall transport, not just normal IP cleartext      2) laundering
1401 2011-03-17 17:30:13 <BlueMatt> it provides SOME anonymousness not is anonymous
1402 2011-03-17 17:30:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: send 'em an email :)
1403 2011-03-17 17:30:15 <xelister> joepie91: read more about it on USK@oG7cGoUEBuHyulWpcmqV0yc-I569Re2A7RRs8zRljEs,IWIcXczmLdP9FEjTvoxJgGnXnK5~PxOppN-wYSADPWQ,AQACAAE/bitcoin-over-freenet/0/  :)
1404 2011-03-17 17:30:31 <gavinandresen> How to create a PULL request needs proofreading:  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4571.new#new
1405 2011-03-17 17:30:32 <luke-jr> xelister: weight
1406 2011-03-17 17:30:33 <joepie91> errrr, what kind of url is that again?
1407 2011-03-17 17:30:40 <gavinandresen> (let me know if I said something stupid)
1408 2011-03-17 17:30:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: yeah, you mentioned github
1409 2011-03-17 17:30:56 <luke-jr> :P
1410 2011-03-17 17:31:24 <luke-jr> you forgot to mention that it requires a legal commitment to pay for legal battle(s)
1411 2011-03-17 17:31:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: just for sanity, I would add "git commit"
1412 2011-03-17 17:31:37 <luke-jr> and that anonymity isn't allowed
1413 2011-03-17 17:31:42 <joepie91> red eclipse somewhat reminds me of global agenda
1414 2011-03-17 17:31:49 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  Good Idea
1415 2011-03-17 17:31:56 <joepie91> also: we need good strategy / simulation / tycoon games...
1416 2011-03-17 17:31:59 <joepie91> oss I mean
1417 2011-03-17 17:32:40 <BlueMatt> red eclipse has gameplay similar to unreal tournament and great graphics on low end hardware (was playing on intel integrated earlier)
1418 2011-03-17 17:32:48 <BlueMatt> but the graphics is nothing like unreal
1419 2011-03-17 17:32:49 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1420 2011-03-17 17:33:08 <joepie91> well... the graphics do strongly remind me of global agenda :P
1421 2011-03-17 17:33:12 <joepie91> but that might also have been the trailer style
1422 2011-03-17 17:33:58 <TD> gavinandresen: looks good
1423 2011-03-17 17:34:19 <TD> though git is incredibly complicated. i bet it'll turn into a "how do i fix my working copy" type thread soon enough
1424 2011-03-17 17:34:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: nit s/git commit/git commit -a/, if we are putting it into a cut-n-paste example
1425 2011-03-17 17:34:48 <Aciid> genjix: there?
1426 2011-03-17 17:34:57 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: done
1427 2011-03-17 17:34:58 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: overall looks good
1428 2011-03-17 17:35:50 <gavinandresen> Should we encourage people to git rebase to clean up commits?  sipa's latest pull request is kinda messy that way
1429 2011-03-17 17:36:40 phantomcircuit has joined
1430 2011-03-17 17:37:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that's my preference
1431 2011-03-17 17:37:33 <gavinandresen> Is there a symbolic name for "last commit I pulled from the remote repo" ?    So you can git rebase -i SOMETHING_HERE
1432 2011-03-17 17:38:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I don't like pulling a history of "hack"; "ok rough draft"; "ok, now it works"; "oh maybe it doesn't"; "clean up"; "first submit"; "jgarzik yelled at me, rewriting"; "rewritten version"; ...
1433 2011-03-17 17:38:15 * jgarzik would just rather see the end result, honestly :)
1434 2011-03-17 17:38:17 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: agreed
1435 2011-03-17 17:39:12 <BlueMatt> oh...uh oops
1436 2011-03-17 17:39:26 <BlueMatt> sorry
1437 2011-03-17 17:39:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: periodically I rebase my branches like this:  cd $repo ; git checkout master ; git pull ../bitcoin master ; git checkout $BRANCH1 && git rebase master ; ... repeat for other branches ...
1438 2011-03-17 17:42:24 <gavinandresen> Maybe:   git rebase -i remotes/origin/HEAD   ... before git push.
1439 2011-03-17 17:43:59 NxTitle has joined
1440 2011-03-17 17:44:55 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: seems like it would work.  I forget what '-i' does though ;)
1441 2011-03-17 17:45:11 <gavinandresen> interactive  -- lets you squash commits, clean up commit messages, etc
1442 2011-03-17 17:45:57 satamusic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1443 2011-03-17 17:46:18 satamusic has joined
1444 2011-03-17 17:48:31 <joepie91> does a transaction fee of 0.02 give any speed advantage over a 0.01 fee?
1445 2011-03-17 17:48:49 <joepie91> any considerable*
1446 2011-03-17 17:49:12 <gavinandresen> joepie91: not at the moment-- there aren't enough fee-paying transactions to make it matter.
1447 2011-03-17 17:49:22 <joepie91> okay
1448 2011-03-17 17:49:32 <joepie91> so 0.01 would theoretically be enough to get stuff through fast?
1449 2011-03-17 17:49:33 <joepie91> :P
1450 2011-03-17 17:49:35 <joepie91> "fast"
1451 2011-03-17 17:50:22 <nanotube> joepie91: even 0 is enough in most cases.
1452 2011-03-17 17:50:33 <joepie91> hm okay
1453 2011-03-17 17:50:58 <joepie91> I'm wondering because for that gateway... I'd like payments to be processed as fast as reasonably possible
1454 2011-03-17 17:51:09 <nanotube> gavinandresen: hope you have a similar post (or a section thereof) that talks about submitting patches. that would be more generic and not reliant on a specific entity like github. :)
1455 2011-03-17 17:52:01 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  process for submitting patches is find somebody to turn your patch into a github pull request.
1456 2011-03-17 17:52:54 <nanotube> gavinandresen: orly? you're going with 'github pull requests only' ? (not that it's a problem for me since i have a github account... but patches are "the standard way"...)
1457 2011-03-17 17:53:27 <nanotube> i guess whatever works better with your workflow is fine. :)
1458 2011-03-17 17:53:37 <jgarzik> pull requests are preferred, but I seriously doubt gavin would turn down a security fix as a patch or even English language description...
1459 2011-03-17 17:53:43 <gavinandresen> That's my plan-- I don't want to keep track of patch requests in email, that's what computers are good at.
1460 2011-03-17 17:53:49 <jgarzik> yep
1461 2011-03-17 17:54:15 <gavinandresen> And yeah, security flaw or something where there's a really good reason NOT to make it a public PULL you can send to jgarzik or tcatm or me.
1462 2011-03-17 17:54:56 <nanotube> reasonable enough. :) * big security flaw: nanotube doesn't have enough bitcoins. please patch at once! * hehe
1463 2011-03-17 17:55:16 <joepie91> heh
1464 2011-03-17 17:55:18 <gavinandresen> Having everything go through the pull request system makes it easier to put together release notes, makes it easier to see what's been applied, etc....
1465 2011-03-17 17:55:20 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: your instructions need "cd bitcoin-git" before "git checkout -b nifty_feature"
1466 2011-03-17 17:56:08 <gavinandresen> done
1467 2011-03-17 17:57:14 <nanotube> jgarzik: so the multisends are still in the 0conf queue eh.
1468 2011-03-17 17:57:15 * joepie91 is going to get MOAR fluorescent tube lighting
1469 2011-03-17 17:57:38 <jgarzik> nanotube: I knew the first mainnet 'sendmany' would take a day or three...
1470 2011-03-17 17:57:45 rli1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1471 2011-03-17 17:58:15 <nanotube> multisend fails the isStandard check, does it?
1472 2011-03-17 17:58:29 <gavinandresen> Are slush and ArtForz running the sendmany patch?  slush definitely should soon...
1473 2011-03-17 17:58:29 <jgarzik> nanotube: one of the sigops checks, I think it was
1474 2011-03-17 17:58:52 <nanotube> mm
1475 2011-03-17 17:58:58 <gavinandresen> it fails a GetSigOpCount() <= 2 check
1476 2011-03-17 17:59:18 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I've been poking them in that direction :)  I think my miner, and maybe tcatm's, are the only ones that might accept such TXs into a block
1477 2011-03-17 17:59:21 <nanotube> aah, the one that was put in after someone stuffed a load of sigops into a tx :)
1478 2011-03-17 17:59:51 <gavinandresen> nanotube: that's the one.
1479 2011-03-17 18:00:22 <nanotube> so... i guess the .21 release will have a more detailed check, to check for 1 sigop per out, rather than total sigops?
1480 2011-03-17 18:00:22 <luke-jr> jgarzik: mine was first I think :P
1481 2011-03-17 18:00:26 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: and periodically I see someone who accepts hundreds of tiny transactions, so I think there's at least one "accept anything" miner
1482 2011-03-17 18:00:29 <luke-jr> jgarzik: provided you pay a fee
1483 2011-03-17 18:01:04 <gavinandresen> sendmany txns won't be relayed, though, so you'll need to be directly connected to a miner that accepts them
1484 2011-03-17 18:01:11 <luke-jr> do common clients relay sendmanys?
1485 2011-03-17 18:01:23 <jgarzik> luke-jr: no
1486 2011-03-17 18:01:29 <nanotube> luke-jr: no, as was mentioned before, they fail the checks
1487 2011-03-17 18:01:30 <phantomcircuit> i enjoy screwing with the hulu ad people
1488 2011-03-17 18:01:38 <luke-jr> then see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Free_transaction_relay_policy
1489 2011-03-17 18:01:45 <luke-jr> -addnode=173.242.112.53
1490 2011-03-17 18:01:48 <phantomcircuit> i purposely tell them that contradictory things interest me
1491 2011-03-17 18:01:51 <jgarzik> Those interested can see the two 'sendmany' transactions I created on mainnet, at the bottom of http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
1492 2011-03-17 18:01:53 <nanotube> gavinandresen: will .21 change the sigop checks from totalmax=2, to 1 per out?
1493 2011-03-17 18:01:56 <luke-jr> that's the "free relay exchange" :P
1494 2011-03-17 18:01:58 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1495 2011-03-17 18:02:34 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  new rule is:  GetSigOpCount() <= txsize_in_bytes/34  (iirc)
1496 2011-03-17 18:03:03 <gavinandresen> 34 bytes (or maybe 43... I'm bad at details)  is size of the smallest standard txn
1497 2011-03-17 18:03:13 <nanotube> heh interesting...
1498 2011-03-17 18:03:29 <nanotube> is that somehow easier or better than 1 per out?
1499 2011-03-17 18:03:30 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so if we want to send more, we need to add a bunch of noops?
1500 2011-03-17 18:03:58 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  send more OP_CHECKSIGs?  why would you want to?
1501 2011-03-17 18:04:03 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: somebody on the forums had a good point about transactions (instead of outs) marked as spent, for the case where sendmany winds up sending two outs to the same remote wallet
1502 2011-03-17 18:04:24 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I'm assuming a 5-target sendmany is less than 5 times the normal 2-target tx size
1503 2011-03-17 18:04:49 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that could potentially be a problem for pool guys
1504 2011-03-17 18:05:19 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  sipa's got a patch submitted to fix that; satoshi contributed a bunch of the code
1505 2011-03-17 18:05:51 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  the new rules support arbitrary number of recipients for sendmany (each gets a TxOut that is 34 bytes with one OP_CHECKSIG)
1506 2011-03-17 18:06:01 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ok, good.  I read and re-read his patch, but it was latelatelate and I wasn't sure it was kosher.
1507 2011-03-17 18:06:14 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: oh, so you mean the 34 bytes is just the txout part, not the entire tx
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1509 2011-03-17 18:06:50 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  the check is against the entire transaction size, the 34 bytes comes from the TxOut part of it
1510 2011-03-17 18:07:05 <luke-jr> I see.
1511 2011-03-17 18:08:12 <jgarzik> rotfl.  yeah, sipa needs to rebase ;-)
1512 2011-03-17 18:08:15 <jgarzik> that's a long list.
1513 2011-03-17 18:08:28 <jgarzik> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/116
1514 2011-03-17 18:08:30 <luke-jr> lol
1515 2011-03-17 18:08:39 <luke-jr> you mean re-commit, right? :P
1516 2011-03-17 18:08:52 <luke-jr> rebase just moves the entire commit log to another base revision
1517 2011-03-17 18:09:37 <joepie91> ... what is this sendmany thing?
1518 2011-03-17 18:09:46 <gavinandresen> sipa did a great job describing the changes, though.  Needs thorough testing on the -testnet before thorough testing with a real wallet
1519 2011-03-17 18:09:55 <luke-jr> joepie91: sending bitcoins to a lot of people with a single transaction
1520 2011-03-17 18:10:16 <gavinandresen> joepie91: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4254.0
1521 2011-03-17 18:10:33 <jgarzik> I still think sendmany it a trap for the unwary WRT fees
1522 2011-03-17 18:10:40 <joepie91> ahhh I see
1523 2011-03-17 18:10:49 <luke-jr> jgarzik: ?
1524 2011-03-17 18:10:59 <gavinandresen> yeah, ?
1525 2011-03-17 18:11:46 <jgarzik> sendmany creates larger TXs, so without an explicit indication that you need to pay a fee, you might be lulled into creating a zero-tx and then wonder why it takes so long to confirm
1526 2011-03-17 18:12:07 <gavinandresen> sendmany adds the fee if it is bigger than "smallest free"
1527 2011-03-17 18:12:48 <gavinandresen> now luke-jr is going to say how that's evil, but that's the way it is
1528 2011-03-17 18:13:09 * jgarzik would rather that some of these have a max-fee parameter ("if you need to add a fee, try to minimize fee as much as possible, and go no higher than max-fee")
1529 2011-03-17 18:13:18 <gavinandresen> patches welcome
1530 2011-03-17 18:13:23 <sipa> ah, should I make a new branch and combine all changes in spentpertxout in that?
1531 2011-03-17 18:13:31 <sipa> in a single commit
1532 2011-03-17 18:14:06 <gavinandresen> sipa:  yes, one commit if it is logically one change
1533 2011-03-17 18:14:09 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah, or a few logical changes (similar to steps in a math proof, where each change is self-contained, buildable and usable on its own)
1534 2011-03-17 18:14:44 <gavinandresen> ... and git rebase -i  can be your friend
1535 2011-03-17 18:15:59 <gavinandresen> (I assume github will do something smart with the pull request if you rebase....)
1536 2011-03-17 18:16:44 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: this was probably triggered by my closing the pull request and humbly requesting that sipa rebase
1537 2011-03-17 18:17:08 <sipa> can i do that within the same branch?
1538 2011-03-17 18:17:26 <jgarzik> sipa: rebase rewrites current branch on top of branch X
1539 2011-03-17 18:18:01 <jgarzik> sipa: or are you asking, can you submit a new pull request with same branch?  sure.  the idea is that the end result of our pull is just a few commits
1540 2011-03-17 18:18:21 <sipa> no, i'm just learning git still
1541 2011-03-17 18:18:38 <jgarzik> collapsing "rough draft" + "fix" + "fix" + "optimization" into a single [set of] commits
1542 2011-03-17 18:19:33 <sipa> i've tried reading man git-rebase, but it's a bit complex :)
1543 2011-03-17 18:20:15 <mizerydearia> http://meta.witcoin.com/p/499/Which-charities-would-you-like-to-see-participate
1544 2011-03-17 18:20:24 <jgarzik> sipa: how many logical commits would you say you have in there?  1 big one?
1545 2011-03-17 18:20:48 <sipa> i think i should turn it into 2 commits
1546 2011-03-17 18:21:01 <jgarzik> sipa: if yes, "git diff vanilla-branch..my-hacks-branch > patch" will create a patch, which you can then commit
1547 2011-03-17 18:22:00 sprash has joined
1548 2011-03-17 18:22:04 <sipa> hmm, and you can have that patch replace all commits in that branch on github?
1549 2011-03-17 18:22:11 <sipa> or should i just make a new branch with that patch in
1550 2011-03-17 18:22:47 <jgarzik> sipa: the latter, was what I was suggesting.  but feel free to split the patch into two commits; you have a better idea of the logical changes involved.
1551 2011-03-17 18:25:15 <jgarzik> sipa: in my workflow locally, when faced with a task like this, I go "old school."  There is probably a fancy tool that does this, but I generate a single One Big Patch, and then slowly work to whittle it down:  (1) grab several changes from One Big Patch, apply as a subset patch to working tree, test, commit  (2) update One Big Patch, deleting changes just committed.  (3) go to step #1, if One Big Patch not yet empty.
1552 2011-03-17 18:25:27 <jgarzik> some people will probably call that archaic, but it works for me.
1553 2011-03-17 18:27:52 <sipa> ok ic
1554 2011-03-17 18:30:52 larsivi has joined
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1556 2011-03-17 18:32:00 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: all the JSON-RPC do that
1557 2011-03-17 18:32:21 da2ce7 has joined
1558 2011-03-17 18:32:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: all it means is if anyone wants to take advantage of my lower fees, they need to get a patch from me ;)
1559 2011-03-17 18:33:17 <luke-jr> IMO, it would be nice to have some standard way to advertise fee schedules over the p2p network, but that's more complex
1560 2011-03-17 18:40:47 <sipa> jgarzik: i wanted to split in 1) a change to the datastructures and db format, and 2) per-output coin selection
1561 2011-03-17 18:40:56 <sipa> but do you mind if it's just one patch?
1562 2011-03-17 18:42:53 defaced has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1563 2011-03-17 18:43:28 <luke-jr> sipa: wait, I hope the coin selection just works on the total amount? O.o
1564 2011-03-17 18:43:44 <sipa> luke-jr: of course, it's about the inputs
1565 2011-03-17 18:43:55 <luke-jr> heh, ok, must have misunderstood you :P
1566 2011-03-17 18:44:08 <luke-jr> doing per-output coin selection would create unneccesarily large tx ;P
1567 2011-03-17 18:44:11 <sipa> it doesn't select full transactions as inputs anymore, but uses a combination of transaction outputs
1568 2011-03-17 18:50:20 <luke-jr> …
1569 2011-03-17 18:51:19 sprash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1570 2011-03-17 18:51:49 <sipa> luke-jr: read the pull request
1571 2011-03-17 18:52:37 <joepie91> sigh...
1572 2011-03-17 18:52:38 <joepie91> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7DKSao0ndI&feature=feedu
1573 2011-03-17 18:57:08 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1574 2011-03-17 18:58:46 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1575 2011-03-17 19:00:41 Bosma has joined
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1577 2011-03-17 19:02:19 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1578 2011-03-17 19:03:06 <jgarzik> sipa: either way is fine
1579 2011-03-17 19:08:22 <genjix> http://britcoin.co.uk
1580 2011-03-17 19:08:37 <genjix> UK exchange partially up :) opens monday
1581 2011-03-17 19:08:57 <genjix> (unofficially)
1582 2011-03-17 19:09:12 <genjix> source code is free too.
1583 2011-03-17 19:12:37 <BurtyB> genjix :)
1584 2011-03-17 19:13:15 bitcoiner has joined
1585 2011-03-17 19:18:07 trentzb has joined
1586 2011-03-17 19:18:36 <luke-jr> genjix: language?
1587 2011-03-17 19:19:09 <tcatm> anyone running a miner on testnet?
1588 2011-03-17 19:19:47 <tcatm> I'm running cpuminer and it finds lots of rejected blocks
1589 2011-03-17 19:22:42 <jgarzik> tcatm: I was getting http status 500 last night with bitcoind + latest cpuminer in git
1590 2011-03-17 19:23:04 amiller has joined
1591 2011-03-17 19:23:20 <tcatm> I get lots of PROOF OF WORK RESULT: false (booooo)
1592 2011-03-17 19:23:39 <jgarzik> tcatm: well it submits H==0, and testnet difficult is greater than 1
1593 2011-03-17 19:24:19 <tcatm> oh, it doesn't check target?
1594 2011-03-17 19:24:39 <jgarzik> tcatm: apply git://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin.git#pow-fail
1595 2011-03-17 19:24:58 <jgarzik> tcatm: it provides 100% definitive answers to these sorts of questions
1596 2011-03-17 19:25:47 <jgarzik> sample output:
1597 2011-03-17 19:25:50 <jgarzik> proof-of-work check FAILED...
1598 2011-03-17 19:25:50 <jgarzik>   hash: 000000000018a5ed9f7a7e036647031a06e33f9a936b8bf8af123b9228829cf9
1599 2011-03-17 19:25:50 <jgarzik> target: 000000000000dc31000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1600 2011-03-17 19:26:05 <jgarzik> and of course you get a longer print-out if proof-of-work succeeds
1601 2011-03-17 19:26:16 <tcatm> if cpuminer submits every H==0 the output is okay. I thought it would check hash <= target
1602 2011-03-17 19:26:22 Bosma has quit (Quit: Bosma)
1603 2011-03-17 19:26:37 <jgarzik> tcatm: that's fulltest(), but for some reason it gives unreliable results
1604 2011-03-17 19:26:57 <jgarzik> tcatm: so had to turn it off for now.  If you wanted to debug, that would be great :)
1605 2011-03-17 19:27:05 <tcatm> huh? how can that happen? what was the problem?
1606 2011-03-17 19:28:54 <jgarzik> tcatm: I thought I had the byteswapping and comparisons correct; had it working reliably on my devel box (x86-64 recent).  but the same code would give a different byte order (and thus wrong comparison on 256-bit number) on another linux x86-64 box.
1607 2011-03-17 19:29:33 <jgarzik> probably best to perform a byte-by-byte comparison to guarantee no swapping gets in the way
1608 2011-03-17 19:29:53 <genjix> luke-jr: ?
1609 2011-03-17 19:29:56 <genjix> what
1610 2011-03-17 19:30:45 Lachesis has joined
1611 2011-03-17 19:31:10 Bosma has joined
1612 2011-03-17 19:31:36 <luke-jr> genjix: what language is your new exchange?
1613 2011-03-17 19:32:33 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1614 2011-03-17 19:33:39 trentzb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1615 2011-03-17 19:33:40 <genjix> luke-jr: http://britcoin.co.uk
1616 2011-03-17 19:33:50 <genjix> if you feel qualified to click the link :p
1617 2011-03-17 19:33:52 <tcatm> jgarzik: you could compare H <= targetH && G <= targetG. that's what oclminer does
1618 2011-03-17 19:34:06 <luke-jr> genjix: that doesn't tell me what language it's in
1619 2011-03-17 19:34:17 <luke-jr> wtf, who uses pounds anymore?
1620 2011-03-17 19:34:41 <genjix> are you retarded
1621 2011-03-17 19:34:53 <luke-jr> found it: PHP
1622 2011-03-17 19:35:01 <Blitzboom> he obviously is
1623 2011-03-17 19:35:04 <luke-jr> remind me to make sure TBC works correctly sometime
1624 2011-03-17 19:35:11 <luke-jr> are you adding Esperanto>?
1625 2011-03-17 19:35:15 <jgarzik> tcatm: that's basically what fulltest does, iteratively (from H ... A)
1626 2011-03-17 19:35:34 <genjix> no, this is not my project
1627 2011-03-17 19:35:40 <genjix> there's a company backing me.
1628 2011-03-17 19:35:44 <jgarzik> tcatm: H<=tH && G<=tG would have same problems, because you gotta get 32-bit integer byte order correct for that method -or- fulltest()
1629 2011-03-17 19:37:39 <luke-jr> genjix: so?
1630 2011-03-17 19:38:10 Raulo has joined
1631 2011-03-17 19:38:17 <genjix> it's for GBP only
1632 2011-03-17 19:38:36 <genjix> everyone in the UK speaks English.
1633 2011-03-17 19:44:21 RazielZ has quit ()
1634 2011-03-17 19:47:07 <mtve> luke-jr, TD: https://github.com/mtve/bitcoin-pl
1635 2011-03-17 19:47:18 <luke-jr> mtve: not github‼‼!
1636 2011-03-17 19:47:41 <mtve> what's wrong with github?
1637 2011-03-17 19:48:10 <luke-jr> mtve: you can't use it unless you sign a legal contract to pay for GitHub's legal defense
1638 2011-03-17 19:48:13 <luke-jr> also, it's non-free
1639 2011-03-17 19:49:35 <tcatm> obviously you can use it without signing anything
1640 2011-03-17 19:49:54 <luke-jr> nope
1641 2011-03-17 19:50:10 <mtve> i don't really care, i'm on the dark side.
1642 2011-03-17 19:50:22 <luke-jr> mtve: I do.
1643 2011-03-17 19:50:49 <mtve> it was supposed to be a joke about your nick.
1644 2011-03-17 19:51:22 <luke-jr> the whole point of having you put it in VC was so I could work on it :P
1645 2011-03-17 19:51:45 * luke-jr clones it to http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin-pl
1646 2011-03-17 19:51:53 <luke-jr> mtve: got a gitorious acct I can give you access with?
1647 2011-03-17 19:51:58 <mtve> well, you could clone it anonymously... excellent
1648 2011-03-17 19:52:32 Raulo_ has joined
1649 2011-03-17 19:52:47 <mtve> i suppose i can pull your changes back anytime, so i don't see any problems.
1650 2011-03-17 19:52:50 <nanotube> tcatm: well, clicking 'i agree' to the tos is kind of like signing. :)
1651 2011-03-17 19:52:57 <luke-jr> mtve: why not just use Gitorious?
1652 2011-03-17 19:53:04 <luke-jr> nanotube: legally, it is the same thing
1653 2011-03-17 19:53:27 Raulo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1654 2011-03-17 19:54:15 <nanotube> luke-jr: dunno if that's really been held up in court. iirc there were some cases where the 'you agree not to sue us but use binding arbitration instead' provisions of eulas were declared illegal, or smth like that.
1655 2011-03-17 19:54:45 <luke-jr> nanotube: true, but you're still giving your word
1656 2011-03-17 19:54:48 <nanotube> so probably anything that kind of arbitrarily limits your rights via a eula-style contract can be challenged.
1657 2011-03-17 19:54:55 <tcatm> I doubt it would work in court, they don't even have enough information to know who I am.
1658 2011-03-17 19:55:11 <joepie91> mhh
1659 2011-03-17 19:55:15 <luke-jr> nanotube: it doesn't limit your rights
1660 2011-03-17 19:55:16 <nanotube> tcatm: heh if it comes to that... they'll be happy to look at their logs and subpoena your isp.
1661 2011-03-17 19:55:17 <joepie91> there have been some interesting cases in the netherlands
1662 2011-03-17 19:55:21 <joepie91> about accepting TOS
1663 2011-03-17 19:55:25 <luke-jr> nanotube: it just creates a legal obligation to pay them
1664 2011-03-17 19:55:43 <luke-jr> tcatm: they also don't allow false names
1665 2011-03-17 19:55:47 <joepie91> basicaly they had to be 1. clearly readable (so no 6 lines textarea) 2. printable 3. appropriate font size
1666 2011-03-17 19:55:52 <nanotube> luke-jr: whatever i was speaking loosely. you could say that creating an obligation to pay limits your right not to pay. hah.
1667 2011-03-17 19:55:53 <joepie91> otherwise they were not legally binding
1668 2011-03-17 19:56:05 <luke-jr> nanotube: no, you couldn't. :P
1669 2011-03-17 19:56:20 <nanotube> i kinda just did. so nya nya. :P
1670 2011-03-17 19:56:35 <luke-jr> mtve: so got a gitorious acct? ☺
1671 2011-03-17 19:56:47 <tcatm> nanotube: luckily we don't have subpoenas here :)
1672 2011-03-17 19:56:54 <nanotube> luke-jr: anyway i'm no lawyer, i'm just saying that it could be challenged. i still agree that it's shitty. :)
1673 2011-03-17 19:57:11 <luke-jr> nanotube: Gitorious is much more reasonable
1674 2011-03-17 19:57:11 <mtve> i like the way gitorious scrambled my email - mtve1927@gm...l.com , moreover it required much more clicks than github to signup, including email click.
1675 2011-03-17 19:57:17 <nanotube> tcatm: hehe well, whatever the international discovery process is.
1676 2011-03-17 19:57:33 <genjix> but what's the difference between gitorious and github? - none.
1677 2011-03-17 19:57:47 <genjix> gitorious is better even. and it's free.
1678 2011-03-17 19:57:47 <nanotube> luke-jr: indeed, unfortunately gitorious is also less featureful.
1679 2011-03-17 19:58:01 <nanotube> genjix: no issue tracker, no pull requests, probably no some other stuff.
1680 2011-03-17 19:58:16 <luke-jr> nanotube: gitorious does have pull requests
1681 2011-03-17 19:58:30 <nanotube> well, s/no pull requests// :)
1682 2011-03-17 19:58:39 sprash has joined
1683 2011-03-17 19:58:44 <genjix> nanotube: the issue tracker is shit on github
1684 2011-03-17 19:58:52 <genjix> no way to assign bugs to people
1685 2011-03-17 19:59:01 <genjix> it's very limited. like a toy
1686 2011-03-17 19:59:09 <nanotube> genjix: that may be, but a shit tracker is better than no tracker, in cases where you don't want to invest in running your own.
1687 2011-03-17 19:59:52 <luke-jr> mtve: added you as admin
1688 2011-03-17 20:00:20 <nanotube> at any rate, we're arguing about nothing. i agree that licensing on gitorious is better.
1689 2011-03-17 20:00:51 <luke-jr> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin-pl
1690 2011-03-17 20:01:27 <mtve> i see, thanks, imo it's enought for today for me.
1691 2011-03-17 20:06:39 sprash has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
1692 2011-03-17 20:11:51 <jgarzik> luke-jr: nice.  glad that's out in git somewhere.
1693 2011-03-17 20:12:25 <jgarzik> ah good, it's on github.
1694 2011-03-17 20:13:19 towerX is now known as tower
1695 2011-03-17 20:14:11 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1696 2011-03-17 20:15:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: hopefully mtve will stick to gitorious ☺
1697 2011-03-17 20:17:01 jostmey has joined
1698 2011-03-17 20:17:11 jostmey has left ()
1699 2011-03-17 20:21:29 <genjix> http://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoin-pl/blobs/master/ecdsa.pm
1700 2011-03-17 20:23:13 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 1260000
1701 2011-03-17 20:23:14 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1260000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 3 days, 0 hours, 8 minutes, and 42 seconds
1702 2011-03-17 20:25:50 Syke has joined
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1704 2011-03-17 20:35:35 sgornick1 has joined
1705 2011-03-17 20:35:37 sgornick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1706 2011-03-17 20:36:37 sgornick1 has quit (Client Quit)
1707 2011-03-17 20:37:00 sgornick has joined
1708 2011-03-17 20:38:17 <luke-jr> genjix: ?
1709 2011-03-17 20:40:03 doublec has joined
1710 2011-03-17 20:46:06 jostmey has joined
1711 2011-03-17 20:52:10 <genjix> just looks messy is all.
1712 2011-03-17 20:54:30 <sipa> jgarzik: ok, made a new branch, all turn it into a pull request later
1713 2011-03-17 20:55:24 amiller has joined
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1715 2011-03-17 21:00:44 <jgarzik> genjix: I hope you have some takers on those maintenance contracts.  You'll probably have to wait a few months for momentum to build, IMO.
1716 2011-03-17 21:01:29 <jgarzik> OSS has become good at growing small shops that help support a particular piece of OSS software.  Part of a healthy ecosystem.
1717 2011-03-17 21:03:35 Lartza has joined
1718 2011-03-17 21:04:00 <Lartza> Can the linux version run without a GUI?
1719 2011-03-17 21:05:06 <tcatm> yep. use bitcoind
1720 2011-03-17 21:05:30 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1721 2011-03-17 21:05:36 <Lartza> Can it be set-up without a GUI too?
1722 2011-03-17 21:05:41 <tcatm> sure
1723 2011-03-17 21:05:52 <Lartza> Perfect :)
1724 2011-03-17 21:06:06 <Lartza> I'm gonna be rich with my server :P
1725 2011-03-17 21:06:33 <tcatm> rich as in having > 0 and < 1.00 BTC? :)
1726 2011-03-17 21:06:40 <Lartza> :P of course
1727 2011-03-17 21:06:43 <joepie91> you going to run it on a vps?
1728 2011-03-17 21:06:47 <Lartza> Btw, are bitcoins taxed?
1729 2011-03-17 21:06:47 <luke-jr> genjix: do you know Perl?
1730 2011-03-17 21:06:49 <joepie91> or an actual physical server?
1731 2011-03-17 21:06:53 <Lartza> joepie91: Physical
1732 2011-03-17 21:07:01 <joepie91> ok, good :P
1733 2011-03-17 21:07:06 <luke-jr> Lartza: rich how>?
1734 2011-03-17 21:07:07 <Lartza> joepie91: Why? :D
1735 2011-03-17 21:07:18 <Lartza> luke-jr: By magic
1736 2011-03-17 21:07:19 <joepie91> I can imagine most VPS hosts wouldn't be too happy with a bitcoind eating away at their shared cores
1737 2011-03-17 21:07:24 <joepie91> :)
1738 2011-03-17 21:07:29 <luke-jr> joepie91: I don't allow it :P
1739 2011-03-17 21:07:32 <jgarzik> "dynamic wallet triggers" -- I wonder if it would be useful to have a feature that allows the -user- to program certain simple rules for their wallet, such as "if block generated, send to address 1nnnnnnnnn" or "if money received to account foo, send to address 1mmmmmmmmmm"
1740 2011-03-17 21:07:37 <Lartza> joepie91: Meh... I have amazon cloud server I could put it to :)
1741 2011-03-17 21:07:44 <joepie91> mm
1742 2011-03-17 21:07:48 <jgarzik> would save some polled scripting
1743 2011-03-17 21:08:02 * joepie91 wonders if its possible to generate a profit frm bitcoin using amazon cloud
1744 2011-03-17 21:08:06 <joepie91> from*
1745 2011-03-17 21:08:09 <Lartza> But, taxes on selling something? I mean if I don't mark bitcoin selling as taxes?
1746 2011-03-17 21:08:10 <xelister> joepie91: it is not
1747 2011-03-17 21:08:11 <luke-jr> jgarzik: that's one of the problems the Wallet protocol aims to solve, sortof
1748 2011-03-17 21:08:25 <luke-jr> (instead of polled scripting, you'd have a script that blocks on a connection)
1749 2011-03-17 21:08:34 <joepie91> Lartza: I don't think bitcoin itself is taxed
1750 2011-03-17 21:08:43 <joepie91> exchanging it for a "real" currency might cost you though
1751 2011-03-17 21:08:45 <joepie91> in taxes
1752 2011-03-17 21:08:48 <joepie91> not sure how that works
1753 2011-03-17 21:08:54 <Lartza> If I sell something in bitcoins?
1754 2011-03-17 21:08:57 <luke-jr> Lartza: if you're thinking of mining, you're wasting your time
1755 2011-03-17 21:09:14 <luke-jr> servers are terrible at mining
1756 2011-03-17 21:09:16 <Lartza> luke-jr: I know you can't get rich by running the program only :)
1757 2011-03-17 21:09:22 <Lartza> luke-jr: Old P3 desktop :P
1758 2011-03-17 21:09:37 <luke-jr> Lartza: that is true no matter *what* CPU you have
1759 2011-03-17 21:09:40 <joepie91> I doubt a P3 is gonna do much
1760 2011-03-17 21:09:42 <joepie91> :P
1761 2011-03-17 21:09:47 <luke-jr> even the best CPUs would take years to find a single block
1762 2011-03-17 21:09:49 <Lartza> joepie91: It does help the cause!
1763 2011-03-17 21:09:49 <joepie91> probably just consume more power vs generate bitcoins
1764 2011-03-17 21:09:53 <joepie91> ah
1765 2011-03-17 21:09:56 <Lartza> :D
1766 2011-03-17 21:09:57 <joepie91> if profit is not your aim, all is fine
1767 2011-03-17 21:09:57 <joepie91> :P
1768 2011-03-17 21:10:15 <Lartza> I might sell something in bitcoins if I figure I can easily circumvent taxes then
1769 2011-03-17 21:10:16 <Lartza> :P
1770 2011-03-17 21:10:21 <joepie91> but Lartza: I don't think any government could tax bitcoin any more than they could tax linden dollars
1771 2011-03-17 21:10:31 <joepie91> it's probably the exchange that's gonna cost (as in, taxes)
1772 2011-03-17 21:10:37 <Lartza> joepie91: VAT and...
1773 2011-03-17 21:10:40 <luke-jr> Lartza: you can't circumvent taxes
1774 2011-03-17 21:10:41 <Lartza> income tax
1775 2011-03-17 21:10:50 <joepie91> because you would probably techically be "earning money" for exchanging BTC for real currency
1776 2011-03-17 21:10:53 <Lartza> luke-jr: I just don't tell I earned = success :)
1777 2011-03-17 21:10:58 <luke-jr> Lartza: that's illegal
1778 2011-03-17 21:11:06 <Lartza> joepie91: But for goods
1779 2011-03-17 21:11:10 <joepie91> yes, I know
1780 2011-03-17 21:11:18 <joepie91> but I don't think you can be taxed on a virtual non-recognized currency
1781 2011-03-17 21:11:28 <joepie91> it'd be the same as when you'd sell your couch for linden dollars
1782 2011-03-17 21:11:35 <joepie91> I don't really think you can be taxed on that
1783 2011-03-17 21:11:41 <Lartza> Yes!
1784 2011-03-17 21:11:47 <Lartza> So I can get rich without taxes :D
1785 2011-03-17 21:11:48 <joepie91> plus, I yet have to see the first IRS system that supports bitcoin :P
1786 2011-03-17 21:11:52 <luke-jr> Lartza: not legally
1787 2011-03-17 21:12:00 <luke-jr> joepie91: you have to pay taxes in USD
1788 2011-03-17 21:12:07 <Lartza> luke-jr: rich in bitcoins
1789 2011-03-17 21:12:08 <luke-jr> even if your earnings were bitcoin
1790 2011-03-17 21:12:12 <Lartza> And I don't live in US
1791 2011-03-17 21:12:14 <joepie91> Lartza: no, because when you exchange it to "real currency" to pay your rent, with that idea you'd "earn" USD by selling bitcoins as a good
1792 2011-03-17 21:12:17 <joepie91> or EUR
1793 2011-03-17 21:12:20 <joepie91> or whatever currency it is
1794 2011-03-17 21:12:37 <joepie91> afaik bitcoins count as virtual goods, not as actual currency
1795 2011-03-17 21:12:39 <Lartza> Yea I am thinking of getting rich in bitcoins :P
1796 2011-03-17 21:12:47 <Lartza> not exchaning to EUR
1797 2011-03-17 21:12:59 <Lartza> and buying/selling bitcoins goods with bitcoins
1798 2011-03-17 21:13:02 <joepie91> just like you can't be taxed if you exchange your plant for a painting
1799 2011-03-17 21:13:11 <joepie91> I don't think you can be taxed if you exchange your plant for bitcoins
1800 2011-03-17 21:13:15 <xelister> joepie91: you can
1801 2011-03-17 21:13:21 <joepie91> how? it is not even a currency
1802 2011-03-17 21:13:24 <xelister> it's called barter
1803 2011-03-17 21:13:26 <joepie91> not in the eyes of the relevant parties that is
1804 2011-03-17 21:13:45 <xelister> based on the value of the gain on exchange, payable in the currency of your local masters
1805 2011-03-17 21:14:07 <Lartza> But isn't bitcoin like... some game currency you sell for game goods? :)
1806 2011-03-17 21:14:09 <luke-jr> Lartza: it's probably treated the same way as gold
1807 2011-03-17 21:14:10 <joepie91> derp, probably some US thing
1808 2011-03-17 21:14:15 <xelister> Lartza: it also is
1809 2011-03-17 21:14:18 <xelister> its complicated topic
1810 2011-03-17 21:14:21 <Lartza> luke-jr: Not sure how gold is treated :D
1811 2011-03-17 21:14:30 <luke-jr> Lartza: probably you pay taxes based on the market value when you get it
1812 2011-03-17 21:14:33 <Lartza> xelister: And I can't find any discussion of it on my country :)
1813 2011-03-17 21:14:41 <xelister> Lartza: which country
1814 2011-03-17 21:14:43 <xelister> ?
1815 2011-03-17 21:14:44 <Lartza> Finland
1816 2011-03-17 21:15:05 <joepie91> I don't think there is anything like bartering tax in europe anywhere
1817 2011-03-17 21:15:14 AAA_awright_ has joined
1818 2011-03-17 21:15:17 <xelister> jgarzik: you said bitcoin probably will need to work along with government etc to work fully?
1819 2011-03-17 21:15:33 <xelister> joepie91: there is, everywhere in eu probably, definatelly in pl
1820 2011-03-17 21:15:37 <luke-jr> xelister: not bitcoin, but people who use it
1821 2011-03-17 21:15:38 <genjix> Lartza: havu vapuu!
1822 2011-03-17 21:15:42 <genjix> :)
1823 2011-03-17 21:15:45 <genjix> <3 finland
1824 2011-03-17 21:15:47 <joepie91> I can't find _any_ documentation on the matter _at all_
1825 2011-03-17 21:15:50 <xelister> luke-jr: well yea, it boilds down to the same thing
1826 2011-03-17 21:15:53 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1827 2011-03-17 21:16:18 <luke-jr> problem is, PayPal taxes when you cash out
1828 2011-03-17 21:16:19 <xelister> http://ksiegowosc.infor.pl/temat-dnia/80212,Podatkowe-skutki-umow-barterowych.html
1829 2011-03-17 21:16:25 <xelister> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter
1830 2011-03-17 21:16:25 <jgarzik> xelister: like it or not, most people like laws.  that means mainstream use and law abiding use will likely coincide.
1831 2011-03-17 21:16:26 <luke-jr> so if I'm selling via PayPal, I get hit twice
1832 2011-03-17 21:16:27 <Lartza> So... can I get caught for using bitcoin and not reporting it to my taxes if it is taxed? :P
1833 2011-03-17 21:16:43 <xelister> Lartza: probably
1834 2011-03-17 21:16:47 <luke-jr> Lartza: you could. you probably won't.
1835 2011-03-17 21:16:56 <luke-jr> Lartza: you should pay taxes regardless of risk of being caught.
1836 2011-03-17 21:17:02 <xelister> jgarzik: most people do not laws, because most laws are shitty
1837 2011-03-17 21:17:18 <jgarzik> sure, sure :)
1838 2011-03-17 21:17:19 <xelister> jgarzik: most people do not like laws (if they know that) because most laws are shitty
1839 2011-03-17 21:17:20 <luke-jr> xelister: I don't like laws, but I respect them.
1840 2011-03-17 21:17:23 <Lartza> luke-jr: But I have no idea how it's taxed and if it is
1841 2011-03-17 21:17:31 <luke-jr> Lartza: guess you need an accountant
1842 2011-03-17 21:17:37 <xelister> luke-jr: yeap, but above question was about "like"
1843 2011-03-17 21:17:44 <luke-jr> I suspect there is a market for an accountant in bitcoin services :P
1844 2011-03-17 21:17:48 <jgarzik> if you don't like laws, move to Somalia, the libertarian paradise!
1845 2011-03-17 21:17:55 <EvanR-work> note that any discussion of tax, for or against, or logged directly to a webpage in here ;)
1846 2011-03-17 21:17:58 <luke-jr> jgarzik: o rly?
1847 2011-03-17 21:18:02 <xelister> jgarzik: are you homophobic?
1848 2011-03-17 21:18:17 ovatork has joined
1849 2011-03-17 21:18:31 <xelister> jgarzik: USA law was saying that it is fellony to be gay  (more exactly: to have anal sex, law in afair... Texas)
1850 2011-03-17 21:18:41 <luke-jr> xelister: good
1851 2011-03-17 21:18:43 <joepie91> <jgarzik>xelister: like it or not, most people like laws.
1852 2011-03-17 21:18:43 <joepie91> name one person you know that has never ever broken a law.
1853 2011-03-17 21:18:44 <xelister> it is still saying that (last checked 2/3 years ago when I read about that)
1854 2011-03-17 21:18:49 noagendamarket has joined
1855 2011-03-17 21:18:59 <EvanR-work> xelister: those laws, if they exist, are BS no one gives a shit
1856 2011-03-17 21:19:12 <xelister> EvanR-work: they exist
1857 2011-03-17 21:19:16 <Lartza> EvanR-work: I haven't said I won't pay taxes on my bitcoins I have implied I don't know if they are taxes and would pay if I knew :P
1858 2011-03-17 21:19:17 <xelister> jgarzik: German law was saying, to help kill all Jews
1859 2011-03-17 21:19:19 <EvanR-work> if they still exist i mean
1860 2011-03-17 21:19:26 <xelister> EvanR-work: they do
1861 2011-03-17 21:19:30 <Lartza> Or I could be talking in theory ;)
1862 2011-03-17 21:19:36 <EvanR-work> xelister: conclusion, no one gives a shit
1863 2011-03-17 21:19:43 <xelister> EvanR-work: people go to jail
1864 2011-03-17 21:19:43 <EvanR-work> Lartza: theres a tax on income
1865 2011-03-17 21:19:44 <joepie91> lol
1866 2011-03-17 21:19:49 <genjix> less babble, more code.
1867 2011-03-17 21:19:54 <EvanR-work> Lartza: like when you sell BTC for profit
1868 2011-03-17 21:19:58 <soultcer> genjix: +1 on that
1869 2011-03-17 21:20:07 <Lartza> EvanR-work: For real currency?
1870 2011-03-17 21:20:11 <EvanR-work> USD
1871 2011-03-17 21:20:17 <EvanR-work> in america at least
1872 2011-03-17 21:20:17 <Lartza> I don't want to change it to currencu
1873 2011-03-17 21:20:28 <Lartza> but to trade/sell/buy bitcoins/goods
1874 2011-03-17 21:20:29 <joepie91> function babble()
1875 2011-03-17 21:20:30 <joepie91> {
1876 2011-03-17 21:20:30 <joepie91> echo(randomString(randomNumber(3,250)));
1877 2011-03-17 21:20:30 <joepie91> }
1878 2011-03-17 21:20:30 <EvanR-work> do you intend on trading it for stuff?
1879 2011-03-17 21:20:30 <Lartza> and in EU
1880 2011-03-17 21:20:45 <EvanR-work> oh. well in US youd possibly have to pay barter income tax
1881 2011-03-17 21:20:58 <EvanR-work> if you werent planning to sell it
1882 2011-03-17 21:21:15 <EvanR-work> ask another euro for questions on EU income tax
1883 2011-03-17 21:21:19 <joepie91> (I should so write a script for that babble function for my IRC client)
1884 2011-03-17 21:21:27 <jgarzik> From the point of view of PhD economists, bitcoins are the same as [infinitely divisible] collectible coins.  Random FWIW.  :)
1885 2011-03-17 21:21:38 <xelister> Under USA law you should not download or watch copyright materials, even like MegaVideo etc, under this one law alone, you can say, that 95% of youth in USA and EU do not like law, jgarzik
1886 2011-03-17 21:21:44 ovatork_ has joined
1887 2011-03-17 21:21:49 <sipa> jgarzik: FWIW?
1888 2011-03-17 21:21:56 <joepie91> lol, as said before, name one person you know that has _NEVER_ broken a law
1889 2011-03-17 21:22:05 <joepie91> you probably won't ever come up with anyone.
1890 2011-03-17 21:22:11 <xelister> joepie91: you are talking to who?
1891 2011-03-17 21:22:15 <joepie91> people in general
1892 2011-03-17 21:22:23 <EvanR-work> who cares?
1893 2011-03-17 21:22:30 <joepie91> also, save those few people who somehow live in a place with barely any laws or none at all
1894 2011-03-17 21:22:31 <jgarzik> sipa: http://www.acronymfinder.com/FWIW.html
1895 2011-03-17 21:22:36 <joepie91> noone cares
1896 2011-03-17 21:22:38 <joepie91> that is the entire point
1897 2011-03-17 21:22:39 <joepie91> :P
1898 2011-03-17 21:22:51 <EvanR-work> ;;ud fwiw
1899 2011-03-17 21:22:52 <gribble> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fwiw | buy fwiw mugs, tshirts and magnets. "For what it's worth." FWIW, the Supra was the best sports car Toyota ever made. by Redbullet156 Feb 25, ...
1900 2011-03-17 21:22:54 <genjix> google scribe says:
1901 2011-03-17 21:22:54 <xelister> well people (especially usafags, but really, almost everyone)
1902 2011-03-17 21:22:55 <genjix> in the bitcoins channel is a channel for the transmission of the data in the form of a single dose of the drug in the treatment of money in the bank and the bank is not a valid stream resource chatting about the weather and other silliness of the whole of the UK and the U.S. Department of Agriculture and Forestry University Fuzhou University of learning to program codes for the same reason that.
1903 2011-03-17 21:22:56 ovatork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1904 2011-03-17 21:23:02 <xelister> prodcude shit laws that noone can really respect
1905 2011-03-17 21:23:29 <EvanR-work> xelister dont be so unamerican
1906 2011-03-17 21:23:37 <EvanR-work> stop hating freedom
1907 2011-03-17 21:23:47 <joepie91> genjix: random sentence gen?
1908 2011-03-17 21:23:55 <xelister> EvanR-work: I hope you are joking now =) ?
1909 2011-03-17 21:24:04 <genjix> from google scribe talking about this channel.
1910 2011-03-17 21:24:05 <EvanR-work> i never lie
1911 2011-03-17 21:24:14 <joepie91> ...google scribe?
1912 2011-03-17 21:24:22 <luke-jr> xelister: you mean upload
1913 2011-03-17 21:24:26 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,gen 1300000
1914 2011-03-17 21:24:27 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 17.1611595615 BTC per day and 0.715048315062 BTC per hour.
1915 2011-03-17 21:24:33 <xelister> luke-jr: downloading is also illegal
1916 2011-03-17 21:24:42 <luke-jr> xelister: where's that law?
1917 2011-03-17 21:24:44 <jgarzik> sipa: your git commits look good, code-wise
1918 2011-03-17 21:24:46 <joepie91> and xelister, regarding the barter tax... does that apply to barter with profit only? or basically to trading anything?
1919 2011-03-17 21:24:53 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,gen 1170000
1920 2011-03-17 21:24:54 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1170000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 15.4450436053 BTC per day and 0.643543483555 BTC per hour.
1921 2011-03-17 21:25:03 <EvanR-work> joepie91: 'barter income'
1922 2011-03-17 21:25:21 <xelister> well, should we pay taxes from bitcoin we get?
1923 2011-03-17 21:25:24 <xelister> some people say that yes
1924 2011-03-17 21:25:26 <luke-jr> yes
1925 2011-03-17 21:25:28 <jgarzik> sipa: the commit messages could use elaboration.  the info you input into the pull request should really be in the permanent git history of bitcoin.  pull requests are too easily hidden, while the git commit message is directly tied to the source code history.
1926 2011-03-17 21:25:36 <Lartza> Aciid: Hello?
1927 2011-03-17 21:25:41 doublec has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1928 2011-03-17 21:25:41 <jgarzik> xelister: yes
1929 2011-03-17 21:25:42 <xelister> even if you are receiving bitcoin transfer, you should pay a tax (expecially if you are any kind of compnay)
1930 2011-03-17 21:25:49 <EvanR-work> xelister: theres a tax on buying precious metals, and current none on bitcoins
1931 2011-03-17 21:25:54 <jgarzik> xelister: my CPA says yes
1932 2011-03-17 21:26:01 <xelister> jgarzik: but then pay tax again on conversion to other monetary?
1933 2011-03-17 21:26:01 <ovatork_> freedom hater
1934 2011-03-17 21:26:05 <xelister> jgarzik: cpa?
1935 2011-03-17 21:26:08 <sipa> jgarzik: good point, but that means the commit messages become quite long
1936 2011-03-17 21:26:13 <joepie91> I would not pay a tax in this country if I could refuse to... but that has more to do with the ridiculous spending of this country than with the concept of tax
1937 2011-03-17 21:26:23 <jgarzik> sipa: why is that a problem?  :)
1938 2011-03-17 21:26:39 <sipa> jgarzik: it's against my habits :)
1939 2011-03-17 21:26:49 <joepie91> "yeah let's cut the complete budget on culture throughout the country, and put all those millions into a COMMERCIAL regional football club that made itself go boom due to banking fraud"
1940 2011-03-17 21:26:56 <sipa> hmm, can you change commit messages retroactively?
1941 2011-03-17 21:27:12 <jgarzik> sipa: git commit message -should- be long.  That is the place for relevant English explanation, URLs and other justifications and descriptions of the patch.
1942 2011-03-17 21:27:14 <jgarzik> sipa: no
1943 2011-03-17 21:27:17 <EvanR-work> joepie91: dont hate freedom dude
1944 2011-03-17 21:27:23 <joepie91> lol wat
1945 2011-03-17 21:27:28 <jgarzik> sipa: git commit message is included in sha1
1946 2011-03-17 21:28:00 <sipa> ah, i see
1947 2011-03-17 21:28:27 <jgarzik> If you wish to include your entire PhD thesis in a git commit message, that's ok [as long as it's relevant].  Long is good.  Explanation that travels with source code is good.
1948 2011-03-17 21:28:56 <EvanR-work> just dont make the commit title very long, press enter twice and put the thesis
1949 2011-03-17 21:29:02 <jgarzik> yes
1950 2011-03-17 21:29:04 <jgarzik> :)
1951 2011-03-17 21:29:25 <jgarzik> More specifically, the first line of a commit message is used as a one-line text summary of your commit
1952 2011-03-17 21:29:33 <jgarzik> 'git shortlog'
1953 2011-03-17 21:29:59 <xelister> jgarzik: cpa :> ?
1954 2011-03-17 21:30:16 <noagendamarket> we do pay a tax because exchanging bitcoin to other currencies means you pay fees
1955 2011-03-17 21:30:19 <jgarzik> xelister: http://www.acronymfinder.com/CPA.html
1956 2011-03-17 21:30:37 <noagendamarket> its almost the same as a tax if you think about it
1957 2011-03-17 21:30:51 <joepie91> only you pay to the exchange office, and not to a government
1958 2011-03-17 21:31:02 <xelister> jgarzik: Communist Party of Australia ?
1959 2011-03-17 21:31:36 <xelister> Your abbreviation search returned 189 meanings
1960 2011-03-17 21:31:39 <jgarzik> the advice I have it:  note the USD-equivalent value of a sale denominated in bitcoins.  and keep track of when you directly exchange BTC/USD.  Bitcoins are definitely on the hook for capital gains, if nothing else.
1961 2011-03-17 21:31:44 altamic has joined
1962 2011-03-17 21:31:47 <jgarzik> s/it/is/
1963 2011-03-17 21:32:08 <EvanR-work> thats not capital gains
1964 2011-03-17 21:32:27 <EvanR-work> unless you are selling previous investments
1965 2011-03-17 21:32:29 <sipa> jgarzik: oh, that's why i assumed commit messages were usually short, i assume, only looking at the first line
1966 2011-03-17 21:32:51 <xelister> jgarzik: some people say that on the transfer of BTC to you, you should tax.  and later pay on exchanging btc to gov-money (possibly nullifing first tax)
1967 2011-03-17 21:33:08 <xelister> but it is likelly that you will be taxed twice
1968 2011-03-17 21:33:18 <EvanR-work> yes taxed twice is common
1969 2011-03-17 21:33:32 <xelister> pay VAT tax on getting BTC for services,  and pay tax on getting gov-approved-money for BTC (yes, this sucks)
1970 2011-03-17 21:33:33 <EvanR-work> if they can find a way they do
1971 2011-03-17 21:34:02 <noagendamarket> its funny how slavery is illegal yet you have to do unpaid tax collecting work or face jail
1972 2011-03-17 21:34:11 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: you receive bitcoins on January 1 at USD-equivalent value of $500.  on June 1, you exchange those bitcoins for $600.  You owe tax on $100.
1973 2011-03-17 21:34:17 <xelister> noagendamarket: it is american way of double-thinking
1974 2011-03-17 21:34:27 <noagendamarket> I know someone who has to pay someone just to do that
1975 2011-03-17 21:34:31 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: that's definitely a capital gain
1976 2011-03-17 21:34:41 <xelister> noagendamarket: it is also funny how murder is illegal, but killing random civiliangs at will is fine often
1977 2011-03-17 21:35:05 <EvanR-work> jgarzik: obviously if you got the bitcoins by buying them with usd it is.
1978 2011-03-17 21:35:09 <noagendamarket> well its fine when the police do it
1979 2011-03-17 21:35:23 <noagendamarket> its for your own protection
1980 2011-03-17 21:35:25 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: the source of the bitcoins is irrelevant
1981 2011-03-17 21:35:28 <xelister> jgarzik: you are not really supporting ideas of liberty and  freedom are you ;)  This what you describe is the worst ever case of taxing
1982 2011-03-17 21:35:41 <EvanR-work> jgarzik: i could argue it isnt
1983 2011-03-17 21:35:49 <Lartza> Oh... two computers, I can link my funds on those to same account?
1984 2011-03-17 21:35:50 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: no different than my receiving gold or stocks
1985 2011-03-17 21:35:55 <xelister> noagendamarket: I had in mind usafags troops droping bombs on random civilians
1986 2011-03-17 21:35:55 <Lartza> Or I mean... not sure what I mean :D
1987 2011-03-17 21:35:56 <EvanR-work> theres some gold on the ground
1988 2011-03-17 21:35:57 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: then later selling them
1989 2011-03-17 21:36:03 <Lartza> Only starting this thing now :)
1990 2011-03-17 21:36:07 <EvanR-work> N years go by, and then i pick it up and sell it
1991 2011-03-17 21:36:12 <EvanR-work> how much capital gains do i pay
1992 2011-03-17 21:36:15 <noagendamarket> can you buy predator drones with btc ?
1993 2011-03-17 21:36:17 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: 100%
1994 2011-03-17 21:36:26 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: if you assume initial cost zero
1995 2011-03-17 21:36:42 <EvanR-work> what? so i give the entire profit to the government?
1996 2011-03-17 21:36:46 <xelister> tax_value * 100% * value of the gold ?
1997 2011-03-17 21:36:50 <noagendamarket> Hello Lartza
1998 2011-03-17 21:36:56 AAA_awright has joined
1999 2011-03-17 21:36:56 <Lartza> Hi
2000 2011-03-17 21:37:01 <EvanR-work> the point is that i didnt own it for any amount of time before i sold it
2001 2011-03-17 21:37:02 AAA_awright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2002 2011-03-17 21:37:02 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: no you are taxed on 100% of the value.  so you give the government 33%
2003 2011-03-17 21:37:45 <noagendamarket> I used to sell products at a market stall but the government took 10% which was the entire profrit margin because I coudlnt pass it on
2004 2011-03-17 21:37:48 <EvanR-work> the longer i have it, assuming its increasing it value, the more tax i pay
2005 2011-03-17 21:37:57 <jgarzik> yes
2006 2011-03-17 21:38:07 <EvanR-work> so at what point did i 'buy' it
2007 2011-03-17 21:38:15 <EvanR-work> and how much was it worth at that point
2008 2011-03-17 21:38:15 <jgarzik> when you acquired it
2009 2011-03-17 21:38:20 <EvanR-work> since that is factored out of the gain
2010 2011-03-17 21:38:44 <EvanR-work> this is frustrating
2011 2011-03-17 21:38:50 <jgarzik> value at time of acquisition is irrelevant.  the capital gain is value of sale minus cost of acquisition.
2012 2011-03-17 21:38:56 <xelister> EvanR-work: govs suck =)
2013 2011-03-17 21:39:02 alystair has joined
2014 2011-03-17 21:39:05 <EvanR-work> the cost of acquisition depends on when i bought it
2015 2011-03-17 21:39:15 defaced has joined
2016 2011-03-17 21:39:35 <jgarzik> so if you pick up gold off the ground (cost == 0), and sell it for $1000, the government gets $1000 * 33%
2017 2011-03-17 21:39:52 <xelister> pay up, slave
2018 2011-03-17 21:39:53 <jgarzik> if you buy gold for $900, and sell it for $1000, the government gets $100 * 33%
2019 2011-03-17 21:39:59 altamic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2020 2011-03-17 21:40:10 <EvanR-work> is it really 33%, i havent paid capital gains tax before
2021 2011-03-17 21:40:11 <xelister> well it makes some sense on natural resources
2022 2011-03-17 21:40:17 <xelister> but other then that, it is sad
2023 2011-03-17 21:40:25 <xelister> EvanR-work: oh you pedorist
2024 2011-03-17 21:40:28 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: In the US, capital gains is either 15% or 20%
2025 2011-03-17 21:40:41 <jgarzik> i forget
2026 2011-03-17 21:40:42 <EvanR-work> pedorist?
2027 2011-03-17 21:40:48 <Lartza> I read about this pooled mining... :P how long does it take for a single CPU/pool to finish a block?
2028 2011-03-17 21:40:54 <EvanR-work> about ten minutes
2029 2011-03-17 21:41:15 <xelister> EvanR-work: well you can be called nowdays for any reason either pedo or terrorist, so to be on the safe side better just call you pedorist, and then van you =)
2030 2011-03-17 21:41:17 <Lartza> I mean...
2031 2011-03-17 21:41:22 <Lartza> EvanR-work: the 50BTC
2032 2011-03-17 21:41:36 <EvanR-work> someone gets 50BTC about one a ten minutes
2033 2011-03-17 21:41:42 <jgarzik> Lartza: the average is 10 minutes to generate 50 BTC, _somewhere_ on the network
2034 2011-03-17 21:41:46 <EvanR-work> jgarzik: so you confirmed all this with cpa
2035 2011-03-17 21:41:49 <Lartza> :S
2036 2011-03-17 21:41:52 <jgarzik> Lartza: a single CPU could take years
2037 2011-03-17 21:42:08 <Lartza> I meant single CPU or mining pool
2038 2011-03-17 21:42:10 <Lartza> :)
2039 2011-03-17 21:42:11 <xelister> EvanR-work: what is CPA?
2040 2011-03-17 21:42:26 <EvanR-work> ;;ud cpa
2041 2011-03-17 21:42:26 <joepie91> <xelister>well it makes some sense on natural resources < actually, it does not
2042 2011-03-17 21:42:26 <gribble> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cpa | "Certified Piece of Ass" "Certified PHAT Ass" Describes someone with an incredibly attractive ass. A.k.a. Badonkadonk.
2043 2011-03-17 21:42:35 <EvanR-work> certified piece of ass
2044 2011-03-17 21:42:47 <EvanR-work> i.e. badonkadonk
2045 2011-03-17 21:42:49 validus has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
2046 2011-03-17 21:42:53 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: BIG LEGAL DISCLAIMER.  THIS IS THE ADVICE I HAVE FOR MY SITUATION.  IT MAY NOT APPLY TO YOUR SITUATION.  CONSULT A PROFESSIONAL.  I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL.  THIS IS NOT LEGAL OR FINANCIAL ADVICE.
2047 2011-03-17 21:42:55 <jgarzik> </caps>
2048 2011-03-17 21:43:02 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: yes, that's what the CPA said
2049 2011-03-17 21:43:05 midnightmagic has joined
2050 2011-03-17 21:43:46 <Lartza> So I can have two computers linked somehow?
2051 2011-03-17 21:43:52 <EvanR-work> jgarzik: whats the cost of mining?
2052 2011-03-17 21:44:00 <xelister> jgarzik: might enlighting us what is CPA
2053 2011-03-17 21:44:02 <jgarzik> EvanR-work: Two dollars.
2054 2011-03-17 21:44:04 <noagendamarket> lartza you could setup a private pool
2055 2011-03-17 21:44:12 <noagendamarket> some people do that
2056 2011-03-17 21:44:28 <lfm> Lartza: just run em separately
2057 2011-03-17 21:44:46 <EvanR-work> sucks not being able to freely talk about stuff
2058 2011-03-17 21:45:06 <Lartza> I understand bitcoin has account per computer
2059 2011-03-17 21:45:24 <Lartza> So was thinking of having one account for two computers
2060 2011-03-17 21:45:28 <joepie91> it doesn't have accounts
2061 2011-03-17 21:45:29 <joepie91> it has wallets
2062 2011-03-17 21:45:30 <joepie91> :)
2063 2011-03-17 21:45:32 <Lartza> :D
2064 2011-03-17 21:45:39 <Lartza> One wallet for two computers
2065 2011-03-17 21:45:39 <Lartza> :D
2066 2011-03-17 21:45:42 <lfm> Lartza: just run em separately
2067 2011-03-17 21:45:43 <EvanR-work> the blockchain is
2068 2011-03-17 21:45:50 <EvanR-work> wallets are irrelevant
2069 2011-03-17 21:46:02 <joepie91> run them separately, and if the second computer gains anything you send it to the first
2070 2011-03-17 21:46:04 <joepie91> et voila
2071 2011-03-17 21:46:15 <Lartza> I can freely exchange funds between the computers without fees?
2072 2011-03-17 21:46:22 <lfm> yes
2073 2011-03-17 21:46:27 <Lartza> Interesting
2074 2011-03-17 21:46:29 <Lartza> :)
2075 2011-03-17 21:46:40 <Lartza> Damn tax question still floating around
2076 2011-03-17 21:46:44 <jgarzik> as long as you're not sending out hundreds of transactions every hour... yes
2077 2011-03-17 21:46:48 <EvanR-work> you can freely send money to anyone without a fee, currently if its  0.01 or more
2078 2011-03-17 21:47:07 <Lartza> EvanR-work: Yea read the DoS stuff and something like that :)
2079 2011-03-17 21:47:23 <Lartza> But you CAN pay fee to support correct?
2080 2011-03-17 21:47:49 <EvanR-work> yes but support better if you generate conis
2081 2011-03-17 21:47:52 <EvanR-work> coins
2082 2011-03-17 21:48:14 <lfm> or use bitcoin for business
2083 2011-03-17 21:48:29 <Lartza> Well with slow two computers :)
2084 2011-03-17 21:48:33 <luke-jr> xelister: google
2085 2011-03-17 21:48:39 <Lartza> lfm: Planning, unsurea about taxes
2086 2011-03-17 21:48:43 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2087 2011-03-17 21:49:19 <Lartza> These pools... are they any good?
2088 2011-03-17 21:49:27 <Lartza> Maybe private pool but public?
2089 2011-03-17 21:49:47 <EvanR-work> they are good for miners
2090 2011-03-17 21:50:04 <EvanR-work> more steady throughput
2091 2011-03-17 21:50:07 <lfm> Lartza: you need good gpu if you wan tto seriously generate any bitcoin, pool or not
2092 2011-03-17 21:50:23 AAA_awright_ has joined
2093 2011-03-17 21:50:25 <Lartza> lfm: Yea, no good CPU :)
2094 2011-03-17 21:50:42 <lfm> cpu no good, true
2095 2011-03-17 21:50:44 <Lartza> I'll just have two separate slow computers :)
2096 2011-03-17 21:50:49 jrabbit has joined
2097 2011-03-17 21:50:52 <Lartza> *not good GPU
2098 2011-03-17 21:50:55 <Lartza> :)
2099 2011-03-17 21:51:20 <Lartza> since pool is also a hassle to set-up
2100 2011-03-17 21:51:41 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2101 2011-03-17 21:51:59 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
2102 2011-03-17 21:53:11 <lfm> pool doesnt get you more bitcoins, it is just more even flow of bitcoin
2103 2011-03-17 21:54:25 <Lartza> yea and I was thinking of a 2-3 computer pool
2104 2011-03-17 21:54:34 doublec has joined
2105 2011-03-17 21:54:39 doublec has quit (Changing host)
2106 2011-03-17 21:54:39 doublec has joined
2107 2011-03-17 21:54:47 <Lartza> or... between friends perhaps that would have stedier yet some income...
2108 2011-03-17 21:55:21 <lfm> Lartza: the total imcome is the same. each processor just adds its hash/s
2109 2011-03-17 21:55:42 <joepie91> mh.. my CPU somehow generates more hashes than my GPU still
2110 2011-03-17 21:55:47 <Lartza> But faster completion of the 50BTC
2111 2011-03-17 21:55:53 <Lartza> with multiple PC's
2112 2011-03-17 21:56:05 defaced has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2113 2011-03-17 21:56:06 <lfm> joepie91: quite possible if you have a cheap gpu
2114 2011-03-17 21:56:13 <joepie91> GPU hits about 2000khash/s while CPU does about 3500-4000khash/sec
2115 2011-03-17 21:56:16 <joepie91> and I have no idea lol
2116 2011-03-17 21:56:27 <joepie91> nvidia geforce 8400GS
2117 2011-03-17 21:56:30 <lfm> Lartza: not really faster no, the same rate on average
2118 2011-03-17 21:56:34 <Lartza> FX5500 can't propably run bitcoin? :P
2119 2011-03-17 21:56:39 <joepie91> according to the sticker, 1535MB but I don't believe it
2120 2011-03-17 21:56:59 jrabbit has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2121 2011-03-17 21:57:18 <lfm> joepie91: yes nvidia 8400gs is just about the slowest gpu you can still run openCL mining on
2122 2011-03-17 21:57:19 jrabbit has joined
2123 2011-03-17 21:57:24 <joepie91> lol
2124 2011-03-17 21:58:03 <joepie91> I also have another box with an... ATI HD3650?
2125 2011-03-17 21:58:08 <joepie91> not sure about model number
2126 2011-03-17 21:58:10 <joepie91> something like that
2127 2011-03-17 21:58:19 <lfm> Lartza: try fx550 is not supported for opencl
2128 2011-03-17 21:58:28 <lfm> Lartza: true, fx550 is not supported for opencl
2129 2011-03-17 21:58:34 <luke-jr> Lartza: you don't *complete* teh 50BTC, you *find* it
2130 2011-03-17 21:58:45 <Lartza> luke-jr: It's a treasure!?
2131 2011-03-17 21:58:45 <luke-jr> Lartza: the difference being, you don't make progress.
2132 2011-03-17 21:58:48 <Lartza> Nobody told me!
2133 2011-03-17 21:58:48 <Lartza> :D
2134 2011-03-17 21:58:54 <lfm> joepie91: radeon need to be 4xxx or better to mine on
2135 2011-03-17 21:58:56 defaced has joined
2136 2011-03-17 21:59:01 <joepie91> hmk
2137 2011-03-17 21:59:03 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 30000
2138 2011-03-17 21:59:04 <joepie91> might also be 4650
2139 2011-03-17 21:59:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 30000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 18 weeks, 0 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes, and 53 seconds
2140 2011-03-17 21:59:05 <joepie91> I dunno
2141 2011-03-17 21:59:12 <joepie91> either 3650 or 4650
2142 2011-03-17 21:59:16 <joepie91> (will have to look that up)
2143 2011-03-17 21:59:18 <luke-jr> Lartza: that's how long on average it would take 3 high-end CPUs to find 50BTC today
2144 2011-03-17 21:59:37 james_ has joined
2145 2011-03-17 21:59:42 <lfm> joepie91: 4650 would run, not real fast yet tho
2146 2011-03-17 21:59:45 <Lartza> what would a low-end be in Khps? :)
2147 2011-03-17 21:59:54 <Lartza> P3 and P4 ;)
2148 2011-03-17 21:59:57 <luke-jr> um
2149 2011-03-17 21:59:59 Guest51712 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2150 2011-03-17 22:00:02 <lfm> Lartza: low end what?
2151 2011-03-17 22:00:04 <Lartza> 0.8 and 2.0 GHz :P
2152 2011-03-17 22:00:06 <Lartza> CPU
2153 2011-03-17 22:00:15 <Lartza> GPU is non-existent on the P3 server :D
2154 2011-03-17 22:00:38 <lfm> Lartza: 386 would be low end I spoze. something like 0.050 khash/s
2155 2011-03-17 22:00:47 <luke-jr> Lartza: around 240 kH/s each
2156 2011-03-17 22:01:02 <joepie91> ;;bc,calc 240
2157 2011-03-17 22:01:03 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 240 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 43 years, 12 weeks, 2 days, 18 hours, 17 minutes, and 4 seconds
2158 2011-03-17 22:01:05 <luke-jr> Lartza: 800 MHz P3 is about par with 2 GHz P4
2159 2011-03-17 22:01:07 <joepie91> heh.
2160 2011-03-17 22:01:12 <lfm> p3 ya 200-500 khash/s
2161 2011-03-17 22:01:19 <joepie91> see you in 43 years :)
2162 2011-03-17 22:01:19 <joepie91> :P
2163 2011-03-17 22:01:22 <Lartza> luke-jr: Can't be :S
2164 2011-03-17 22:01:28 <luke-jr> Lartza: P4 was a flop
2165 2011-03-17 22:01:35 <Lartza> joepie91: I am getting a new PC from my friend soon :P
2166 2011-03-17 22:01:38 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 480
2167 2011-03-17 22:01:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 480 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 21 years, 32 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 8 minutes, and 32 seconds
2168 2011-03-17 22:01:40 <joepie91> mh
2169 2011-03-17 22:01:41 <Lartza> i3 :D
2170 2011-03-17 22:01:45 <joepie91> intel, meh
2171 2011-03-17 22:01:46 <joepie91> amd <3
2172 2011-03-17 22:01:49 <luke-jr> Lartza: you know i3 is low-end? :P
2173 2011-03-17 22:01:53 <Lartza> I know :)
2174 2011-03-17 22:02:02 <Lartza> but atleast double or more from the P4 :D
2175 2011-03-17 22:02:03 <luke-jr> Lartza: it won't do much better either
2176 2011-03-17 22:02:10 <Lartza> :S
2177 2011-03-17 22:02:11 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 4000
2178 2011-03-17 22:02:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 2 years, 30 weeks, 6 days, 21 hours, 44 minutes, and 13 seconds
2179 2011-03-17 22:02:15 <luke-jr> that's probably the best i3 will do
2180 2011-03-17 22:02:28 <Lartza> that+P4+P3!
2181 2011-03-17 22:02:29 <Lartza> :D
2182 2011-03-17 22:02:31 <lfm> amd cpus are a little bit better than intel for mining but its really quite moot
2183 2011-03-17 22:02:33 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 4480
2184 2011-03-17 22:02:34 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4480 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 2 years, 16 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes, and 12 seconds
2185 2011-03-17 22:02:39 <joepie91> mh... I didn't mean for mining
2186 2011-03-17 22:02:49 <sipa> jgarzik: better now? :)
2187 2011-03-17 22:02:49 <joepie91> AMD just don't randomly crash/hang on me as intels always appear to do
2188 2011-03-17 22:02:51 <luke-jr> Lartza: also, you'll probably pay a LOT more than that in electricity to run them at those speeds
2189 2011-03-17 22:03:01 <Lartza> luke-jr: :P
2190 2011-03-17 22:03:10 <Lartza> Radeon 5570 can do bitcoin?
2191 2011-03-17 22:03:13 <luke-jr> yes
2192 2011-03-17 22:03:24 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 64000
2193 2011-03-17 22:03:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 64000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 8 weeks, 3 days, 4 hours, 21 minutes, and 30 seconds
2194 2011-03-17 22:03:31 <luke-jr> that's JUST the Radeon 5570
2195 2011-03-17 22:03:32 <Lartza> THen the i3 has that and i3
2196 2011-03-17 22:03:33 <Lartza> :D
2197 2011-03-17 22:03:34 <Lartza> :D:D
2198 2011-03-17 22:03:44 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 68480
2199 2011-03-17 22:03:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 68480 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 7 weeks, 6 days, 7 hours, 26 minutes, and 16 seconds
2200 2011-03-17 22:03:47 <luke-jr> that's all 4
2201 2011-03-17 22:03:48 <joepie91> ... luke-jr do you have a ref chart open, or do you just _know_ all these values?
2202 2011-03-17 22:03:53 <luke-jr> joepie91: I have it open
2203 2011-03-17 22:03:56 <joepie91> ah
2204 2011-03-17 22:03:59 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
2205 2011-03-17 22:04:01 <joepie91> you were getting a bit scary
2206 2011-03-17 22:04:01 <joepie91> lol
2207 2011-03-17 22:04:03 <Lartza> damn skyrim
2208 2011-03-17 22:04:22 <luke-jr> Lartza: this is Radeon 5970:
2209 2011-03-17 22:04:23 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 645000
2210 2011-03-17 22:04:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 645000 Khps, given current difficulty of 76193.9710474 , is 5 days, 20 hours, 56 minutes, and 5 seconds
2211 2011-03-17 22:04:27 <Lartza> My friend is getting a new PC based on skyrim requirements which are still un-annouced
2212 2011-03-17 22:04:37 <Lartza> :)
2213 2011-03-17 22:04:58 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2214 2011-03-17 22:05:18 <Lartza> better get started with my P4 and P3 for the 40 years!
2215 2011-03-17 22:05:18 <Lartza> :D
2216 2011-03-17 22:05:43 <lfm> Lartza: not cpu mining pays less then the cost of power for it
2217 2011-03-17 22:05:52 <lfm> not note
2218 2011-03-17 22:06:13 <Lartza> lfm: Yea, Iäll sell shells and everything propably :P
2219 2011-03-17 22:06:20 <Lartza> straight from the P3 server! :D
2220 2011-03-17 22:06:44 <Lartza> Just need to reach Aciid or someone from Finland or Europe
2221 2011-03-17 22:06:59 <joepie91> for what? :P
2222 2011-03-17 22:07:01 <lfm> Lartza: so you would end up with more money if you let p3 idle to save power
2223 2011-03-17 22:07:07 <joepie91> (<-- europe)
2224 2011-03-17 22:07:13 <Lartza> TAXES
2225 2011-03-17 22:07:24 <Lartza> :)
2226 2011-03-17 22:08:03 <joepie91> oh
2227 2011-03-17 22:08:04 <joepie91> ye
2228 2011-03-17 22:08:12 <Lartza> lfm: I can run it without generating right? :)
2229 2011-03-17 22:08:17 <joepie91> I'll ask around a bit here if someone knows anything about it
2230 2011-03-17 22:08:26 <Lartza> joepie91: Aciid is finnish so :)
2231 2011-03-17 22:08:35 <joepie91> but on the minimum thing I get that you could possibly call "income"... no taxes are going out
2232 2011-03-17 22:08:35 <Lartza> But it's... 0:08 so...
2233 2011-03-17 22:08:39 <lfm> yes, if you just want to trade bitcoin then you should run with generate off
2234 2011-03-17 22:08:41 <joepie91> in fact I don't think I'm even required to pay tax at all
2235 2011-03-17 22:08:53 <joepie91> save for sales tax
2236 2011-03-17 22:09:31 <Lartza> lfm: Maybe pool on the P4 before I get the new PC
2237 2011-03-17 22:09:33 <Lartza> :)
2238 2011-03-17 22:09:57 <lfm> pool does nto make the balance any different
2239 2011-03-17 22:10:21 <Lartza> Well from 43 years to X
2240 2011-03-17 22:10:21 <Lartza> :D
2241 2011-03-17 22:10:33 <Lartza> Just less payout at once but sooner
2242 2011-03-17 22:10:46 <jgarzik> sipa: looks great
2243 2011-03-17 22:10:51 <jgarzik> sipa: thanks
2244 2011-03-17 22:11:04 <lfm> Lartza: compare 1 btc a day for 50 days to 50 btc once in 50 days. which is better?
2245 2011-03-17 22:11:25 <Lartza> lfm: But mine takes 43 years :D
2246 2011-03-17 22:11:25 <joepie91> 1 kilo of feathers vs. 1 kilo of lead etc
2247 2011-03-17 22:11:26 <joepie91> :P
2248 2011-03-17 22:11:46 <lfm> Lartza:  but look at the tiny payments you get from pool
2249 2011-03-17 22:11:56 <Lartza> it's some!
2250 2011-03-17 22:12:04 <Lartza> while I sell stuff and wait for the i3
2251 2011-03-17 22:12:27 slush has joined
2252 2011-03-17 22:12:30 d-best has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
2253 2011-03-17 22:12:33 <lfm> Lartza: and poolin you burn full power that costs your power bill too
2254 2011-03-17 22:12:37 d-snp has joined
2255 2011-03-17 22:12:45 <joepie91> you know... I think bitcoin might actually be very useful for what I'm trying to do - living completely off donations for free services and stuff
2256 2011-03-17 22:13:04 <Lartza> joepie91: Or super-cheap
2257 2011-03-17 22:13:04 <joepie91> bitcoin users appear to not be freeloaders that completely ignore the purpose of something and just grab whatever they can
2258 2011-03-17 22:13:05 <joepie91> lol
2259 2011-03-17 22:13:19 <joepie91> no, the intention is to do absolutely _nothing_ that involves mandatory payment
2260 2011-03-17 22:13:19 <lfm> Lartza: better to just buy some btc and save the power
2261 2011-03-17 22:13:32 <Lartza> joepie91: Yea I am not planning to profit "real" money from this
2262 2011-03-17 22:13:46 <joepie91> err
2263 2011-03-17 22:13:50 <Lartza> joepie91: Well that is better but super-cheap might also work
2264 2011-03-17 22:13:57 <joepie91> it's not about what might work
2265 2011-03-17 22:14:00 <joepie91> it's about the idea behind it :P
2266 2011-03-17 22:14:02 <Lartza> :)
2267 2011-03-17 22:14:13 <jgarzik> My two 'sendmany' transactions made it into 113931: http://blockexplorer.com/b/113931
2268 2011-03-17 22:14:15 <slush> any reason why block explorer does not see last 4 blocks?
2269 2011-03-17 22:14:19 <jgarzik> nanotube, tcatm^^
2270 2011-03-17 22:14:25 <joepie91> I don't agree with the "capitalistic" system in its current form; therefore I minimize my contribution to it
2271 2011-03-17 22:14:41 <BlueMatt> nice jgarzik
2272 2011-03-17 22:15:31 <Lartza> joepie91: Problem is that one who abandons capitalism ends up not so good on the society that relies on money :)
2273 2011-03-17 22:15:43 <nanotube> jgarzik: woo nice :)
2274 2011-03-17 22:15:47 <joepie91> (and from what I've seen many bitcoin users would actually _understand_ the concept, and not just think "oh it's free", take what they can and walk away)
2275 2011-03-17 22:15:52 <jgarzik> nanotube just got paid!
2276 2011-03-17 22:15:55 <joepie91> mh, howso?
2277 2011-03-17 22:16:02 <joepie91> I live a perfectly comfortable life :)
2278 2011-03-17 22:16:17 <Lartza> joepie91: That's like pirates :) sharing is caring
2279 2011-03-17 22:16:40 <Lartza> Everything is free but they don't think it's free so they spend on what tehy want to support,
2280 2011-03-17 22:16:44 <joepie91> indeed
2281 2011-03-17 22:16:46 <joepie91> the only issue is
2282 2011-03-17 22:16:52 <joepie91> that in the "general public"
2283 2011-03-17 22:16:59 <joepie91> many people only agree with that if they are on the receiving end
2284 2011-03-17 22:17:03 <joepie91> -_-
2285 2011-03-17 22:17:24 <Lartza> And the money receiving end is usually the greedy end :/
2286 2011-03-17 22:17:33 <Lartza> as in the losing end on piracy :D
2287 2011-03-17 22:17:37 <joepie91> mm
2288 2011-03-17 22:17:41 <joepie91> anyway
2289 2011-03-17 22:18:02 <joepie91> for anonnews, I think that the amount of bitcoin donations is about as big as the amount of paypal donations
2290 2011-03-17 22:18:07 <lfm> buyers can be just as greedy
2291 2011-03-17 22:18:09 <joepie91> noting that the bitcoin donations _are_ smaller
2292 2011-03-17 22:18:12 <joepie91> a lot smaller
2293 2011-03-17 22:18:17 <Lartza> someone should make a movie only on bitcoins and put it to VODO :)
2294 2011-03-17 22:18:36 <joepie91> but it shows that, while bitcoin has a considerably smaller userbase than paypal, an equal amount of people understands the "donation" spirit
2295 2011-03-17 22:19:08 <joepie91> very spartan conclusion -> bitcoin users understand the idea more than paypal users
2296 2011-03-17 22:19:46 <Lartza> eWallet has some good use? :/
2297 2011-03-17 22:20:09 <lfm> jgarzik: so it didnt matter if you included a fee or not in that case
2298 2011-03-17 22:20:15 <joepie91> eh?
2299 2011-03-17 22:20:18 <joepie91> eWallet?
2300 2011-03-17 22:20:24 <jgarzik> lfm: nope
2301 2011-03-17 22:20:37 <jgarzik> lfm: fit into the free tx area
2302 2011-03-17 22:20:46 <Lartza> joepie91: MyBitcoin etc.
2303 2011-03-17 22:20:55 <joepie91> I don't use it
2304 2011-03-17 22:21:04 <joepie91> I prefer to keep my bitcoins locally
2305 2011-03-17 22:21:06 <alystair> I wonder if I could sell soup for bitcoin
2306 2011-03-17 22:21:32 <Lartza> joepie91: Ahh... yea I'll do that too :)
2307 2011-03-17 22:21:34 <joepie91> I'm a bit tired of financial services being pushed to cut off donations and/or hold funds for controversial causes
2308 2011-03-17 22:21:36 <joepie91> so nty
2309 2011-03-17 22:21:37 <joepie91> :P
2310 2011-03-17 22:21:40 <lfm> alystair: you gonna send soup thru the mail?
2311 2011-03-17 22:21:50 <Lartza> joepie91: Since I atleast have the P3 24/7 I will get funds immediately
2312 2011-03-17 22:22:03 <joepie91> you don't have to have your pc turned on to receive funds afaik
2313 2011-03-17 22:22:13 <Lartza> But instantly you do
2314 2011-03-17 22:22:16 <Lartza> :)
2315 2011-03-17 22:22:18 <lfm> joepie91: true
2316 2011-03-17 22:22:23 <alystair> lfm: yeah doesn't work does it :S
2317 2011-03-17 22:22:28 <Lartza> I read it can take 10 minutes if your PC is not powered on :P
2318 2011-03-17 22:22:36 <joepie91> meh
2319 2011-03-17 22:22:39 <joepie91> 10 minutes is nothing
2320 2011-03-17 22:22:41 <lfm> alystair: or youd need a LOT of local bitcoin users
2321 2011-03-17 22:22:43 <joepie91> when a confirmation can take an hour
2322 2011-03-17 22:22:45 <joepie91> lmfao
2323 2011-03-17 22:22:56 <joepie91> also, winrar -> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/congress-and-hbgary/
2324 2011-03-17 22:22:59 <Lartza> I know but my P3 is still on 24/7 for other stuff than bitcoin :)
2325 2011-03-17 22:23:06 <joepie91> ye
2326 2011-03-17 22:23:10 stewie_ has joined
2327 2011-03-17 22:23:13 <joepie91> my core2 quad windows box also runs 24/7
2328 2011-03-17 22:23:23 <joepie91> running a bot that caters to several IRC channels
2329 2011-03-17 22:23:30 <joepie91> and several other assorted stuff
2330 2011-03-17 22:23:36 <Lartza> joepie91: Mine has bot to one channel :D
2331 2011-03-17 22:23:39 <joepie91> mh
2332 2011-03-17 22:23:42 <Lartza> And soon a bouncer
2333 2011-03-17 22:23:42 <joepie91> I wrote my own bot :D
2334 2011-03-17 22:23:43 <lfm> Lartza: but most cpu save a lot of power (thus money) by using wait states
2335 2011-03-17 22:23:47 <Lartza> joepie91: Me too :P
2336 2011-03-17 22:23:57 <Lartza> lfm: Yes?
2337 2011-03-17 22:23:59 <joepie91> probably 1 or 2 people are going to rage at me for this
2338 2011-03-17 22:24:03 <joepie91> but I wrote it in vb.net.
2339 2011-03-17 22:24:07 <Lartza> !
2340 2011-03-17 22:24:09 * joepie91 hides
2341 2011-03-17 22:24:11 <Lartza> I AM GOING TO
2342 2011-03-17 22:24:12 <Lartza> :P
2343 2011-03-17 22:24:16 <Lartza> Mine is Python
2344 2011-03-17 22:24:17 <joepie91> actually
2345 2011-03-17 22:24:22 <joepie91> vb.net is _excellent_ for an IRC bot
2346 2011-03-17 22:24:30 <joepie91> excellent for any networking stuff, actually
2347 2011-03-17 22:24:37 xelister is now known as xelistovatork_er
2348 2011-03-17 22:24:43 <Lartza> And actually mine uses Twisted so the IRC implementation is done for me
2349 2011-03-17 22:24:46 <joepie91> mh
2350 2011-03-17 22:24:49 <joepie91> I wrote my own irc lib
2351 2011-03-17 22:24:53 <joepie91> pastebinned it somewhere
2352 2011-03-17 22:24:54 <joepie91> 1 sec
2353 2011-03-17 22:24:57 <Lartza> But I know how to receive via socket too so...
2354 2011-03-17 22:25:11 <Lartza> I am just making it easier and asynchronous with Twisted :)
2355 2011-03-17 22:25:19 <joepie91> http://pastebin.com/xshVmJgq
2356 2011-03-17 22:25:20 <joepie91> there
2357 2011-03-17 22:25:24 <joepie91> full IRC lib for vb.net
2358 2011-03-17 22:25:33 <joepie91> you'll need to send shit like part and quit manually
2359 2011-03-17 22:25:38 <joepie91> but the irc communication itself is in there
2360 2011-03-17 22:25:48 <Lartza> Damn Python is so simpler :P
2361 2011-03-17 22:25:53 <joepie91> not really
2362 2011-03-17 22:25:55 <joepie91> :P
2363 2011-03-17 22:26:06 <Lartza> well the syntax on quick looking
2364 2011-03-17 22:26:12 <lfm> please no need for yet anoth language war here
2365 2011-03-17 22:26:14 <joepie91> vb.net syntax <3
2366 2011-03-17 22:26:17 <joepie91> lol
2367 2011-03-17 22:26:29 <joepie91> but yeah
2368 2011-03-17 22:26:34 <joepie91> it runs extremely well
2369 2011-03-17 22:26:37 <Lartza> joepie91: I am not saying VB is bad but that Python looks shorter and cleaner, which is true
2370 2011-03-17 22:26:41 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2371 2011-03-17 22:26:42 <gribble> 113937
2372 2011-03-17 22:26:47 * joepie91 ponders about sending bot here as a demo
2373 2011-03-17 22:26:50 <Lartza> How do I use this bitcoin? :D
2374 2011-03-17 22:26:57 <Lartza> I have the daemon
2375 2011-03-17 22:27:14 <Lartza> any configuration on where?
2376 2011-03-17 22:27:23 <lfm> Lartza: try : bitcoind help
2377 2011-03-17 22:27:42 <Lartza> lfm: It's distro package so not sure if that works
2378 2011-03-17 22:27:59 <lfm> it should
2379 2011-03-17 22:28:15 <joepie91> connecting to freenode is slow..
2380 2011-03-17 22:28:28 <Lartza> joepie91: Get an identd
2381 2011-03-17 22:28:30 <Lartza> :)
2382 2011-03-17 22:28:38 <Lartza> And pick a close server
2383 2011-03-17 22:28:39 <joepie91> errr
2384 2011-03-17 22:28:48 <joepie91> ...
2385 2011-03-17 22:28:48 <Lartza> :P
2386 2011-03-17 22:29:00 <Lartza> but the identd fixed my slow ups on irc connections seriously
2387 2011-03-17 22:29:23 <lfm> identd is usless behind nat router
2388 2011-03-17 22:29:28 <Lartza> Nope
2389 2011-03-17 22:29:30 <joepie91> honsetly
2390 2011-03-17 22:29:30 <Lartza> port forward
2391 2011-03-17 22:29:32 <Lartza> :)
2392 2011-03-17 22:29:32 <joepie91> honestly*
2393 2011-03-17 22:29:37 <joepie91> why would I want an identd
2394 2011-03-17 22:29:41 <lfm> that only works for one
2395 2011-03-17 22:29:44 <Lartza> joepie91: Faster IRC
2396 2011-03-17 22:29:49 <Lartza> lfm: That is true
2397 2011-03-17 22:29:52 <joepie91> eh, no
2398 2011-03-17 22:29:55 <joepie91> that is a server setting
2399 2011-03-17 22:30:02 <joepie91> I connect to my own irc net in under a second
2400 2011-03-17 22:30:10 <Lartza> joepie91: Freenode is trying to get your ident :)
2401 2011-03-17 22:30:16 <joepie91> I know
2402 2011-03-17 22:30:17 <Lartza> And that takes time to timeout
2403 2011-03-17 22:30:27 <joepie91> but other than freenode I do not populate any irc nets that require identd
2404 2011-03-17 22:30:30 <Lartza> solution: install a ident daemon/server :P
2405 2011-03-17 22:30:38 <Lartza> atleast quakenet does... or does it?
2406 2011-03-17 22:30:41 <Lartza> ircnet?
2407 2011-03-17 22:30:42 <joepie91> and mess around with portforwarding on a speedtouch? noty
2408 2011-03-17 22:30:44 <joepie91> lol
2409 2011-03-17 22:30:48 <Lartza> :)
2410 2011-03-17 22:31:05 <joepie91> last time I tried it took about 3 full resets to get it working again
2411 2011-03-17 22:31:13 <joepie91> (piece of sh*t routers)
2412 2011-03-17 22:31:23 <joepie91> anyway
2413 2011-03-17 22:32:21 <joepie91> I am on bitlbee, anonops, n(et)talk, 2600, Cryto (my own), XerossNET (a friends), dairc, and now freenode
2414 2011-03-17 22:32:26 <joepie91> only freenode needs identd
2415 2011-03-17 22:33:05 <Lartza> is there any help on running a bitcoind without using it yourself/to generate coins?
2416 2011-03-17 22:33:10 HillBillyBoom has joined
2417 2011-03-17 22:33:19 <joepie91> wdymean?
2418 2011-03-17 22:33:21 <sipa> Lartza: what do you want to do with it?
2419 2011-03-17 22:33:30 <lfm> well you could add inetd needs to your ircd any time you feel like it
2420 2011-03-17 22:33:31 <Lartza> I noticed it's pretty hard to use it without GUI and that I don't really mean P3 and the P4 :P
2421 2011-03-17 22:33:45 <sipa> Lartza: ./bitcoind
2422 2011-03-17 22:33:55 <Lartza> sipa: Is there anything to do besides transactions/generating coins?
2423 2011-03-17 22:33:59 <joepie91> (or get a miner)
2424 2011-03-17 22:34:10 <sipa> not sure what you mean
2425 2011-03-17 22:34:11 <joepie91> or wait
2426 2011-03-17 22:34:15 <joepie91> those require a pool
2427 2011-03-17 22:34:20 <sipa> what do you want it to do?
2428 2011-03-17 22:34:24 <lfm> Lartza: mswin is harder to use that bash
2429 2011-03-17 22:34:25 <joepie91> but on a system like that it might be worth it I guess
2430 2011-03-17 22:34:34 <lfm> Lartza: mswin is harder to use than bash
2431 2011-03-17 22:34:58 <Lartza> *need P3
2432 2011-03-17 22:35:06 ovatork_ is now known as ovatork
2433 2011-03-17 22:35:34 <Lartza> I realized I don't have any use for the daemon do I?
2434 2011-03-17 22:35:42 <sipa> Lartza: what do you want to use it for?
2435 2011-03-17 22:35:44 <Lartza> sipa: That's what I mean
2436 2011-03-17 22:36:08 <Lartza> :S nothing propably if just running it doesn't do anything?
2437 2011-03-17 22:36:12 * joepie91 lost
2438 2011-03-17 22:36:17 <lfm> Lartza: daemon is nicer for running in background
2439 2011-03-17 22:36:25 <Lartza> lfm: But...
2440 2011-03-17 22:36:28 <sipa> Lartza: if i don't know what you want to do with it, i can't tell you how to do it
2441 2011-03-17 22:36:48 <Lartza> the whole bitcoin if not used for generating/mining/transactions, is there point running it?
2442 2011-03-17 22:37:07 <sipa> yes, if you have a well connected node
2443 2011-03-17 22:37:26 <sipa> a good and solid network connection, static IP, open ports, ...
2444 2011-03-17 22:37:34 <sipa> in that case running a node is useful to the network
2445 2011-03-17 22:37:59 <Lartza> 8333 right? everything open and a pretty good connection with static IP if it doesn't disconnect ;)
2446 2011-03-17 22:38:16 <Lartza> ISP tends to do that... some days are unstable (cable connection)
2447 2011-03-17 22:38:38 <sipa> 8333 indeed
2448 2011-03-17 22:38:58 <Lartza> Do I see any info about the daemon somehow?
2449 2011-03-17 22:39:08 <joepie91> eh. my bot has been stuck on the identd part for at least 5 minutes nw.
2450 2011-03-17 22:39:11 HillBillyBoom has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2451 2011-03-17 22:39:11 <joepie91> now*
2452 2011-03-17 22:39:14 <joepie91> wtf.
2453 2011-03-17 22:39:22 <Lartza> joepie91: It fails :)
2454 2011-03-17 22:39:25 <sipa> Lartza: ./bitcoind getinfo
2455 2011-03-17 22:39:28 <genjix> holy shit!!
2456 2011-03-17 22:39:30 <Lartza> bitcoind -gen generates right?
2457 2011-03-17 22:39:31 <sipa> you can request info with that
2458 2011-03-17 22:39:37 <genjix> i just found GNU screen ... but for X!
2459 2011-03-17 22:39:41 <genjix> and it works fast
2460 2011-03-17 22:39:45 * joepie91 attempts new version (what I was trying to connect was the old version of my irc lib which sucks)
2461 2011-03-17 22:39:47 <genjix> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Xpra
2462 2011-03-17 22:40:22 <sipa> Lartza: yes, or bitcoind setgenerate true afterwards
2463 2011-03-17 22:40:25 <joepie91> ... that looks like something I might like
2464 2011-03-17 22:40:53 <genjix> joepie91: you want to try connecting to the same X app?
2465 2011-03-17 22:41:08 <joepie91> I doubt I can get this running on a win7 box :P
2466 2011-03-17 22:41:12 <joepie91> and my linux box is not hooked up atm
2467 2011-03-17 22:41:15 <genjix> ok
2468 2011-03-17 22:41:20 <joepie91> and I am fairly sure it will kasplode on my puppy linux laptop
2469 2011-03-17 22:41:34 <sipa> genjix: i've heard about it a few years ago, haven't tried it lately though
2470 2011-03-17 22:42:04 <sipa> the only X application i want to be able to switch outputs is bittorrent, and qbittorrent already has a very nice webinterface :)
2471 2011-03-17 22:42:35 <Lartza>  Problem is bitcoind command has no use for me
2472 2011-03-17 22:42:36 <genjix> well i've been interested in pair programming
2473 2011-03-17 22:42:43 <Lartza> bitcoin runs as it's own user
2474 2011-03-17 22:42:54 <genjix> and if you're devving over screen then you can share the same session
2475 2011-03-17 22:42:56 <Lartza> So getinfo tries to open a new bitcoin
2476 2011-03-17 22:43:04 <Lartza> with the user running the command
2477 2011-03-17 22:43:05 <genjix> but for X it's a different matter... hence why xpra is so cool
2478 2011-03-17 22:43:58 <Lartza> every few seconds bitcoind spikes to 50% CPU...
2479 2011-03-17 22:44:01 <Lartza> -gen=0
2480 2011-03-17 22:45:19 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2481 2011-03-17 22:45:23 <Lartza> 25% actually
2482 2011-03-17 22:48:54 <sipa> Lartza: what kind of hardware?
2483 2011-03-17 22:49:05 <Lartza> P3 800Mhz
2484 2011-03-17 22:49:28 <sipa> it still needs to verify all blocks and transactions that come in
2485 2011-03-17 22:49:39 <sipa> maybe for old hardware, that's quite difficult
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2490 2011-03-17 22:59:06 <phantomcircuit> Lartza, almost certainly from receiving blocks/txs
2491 2011-03-17 23:04:26 xelistovatork_er has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2493 2011-03-17 23:05:55 Lartza has quit (Quit: Lähdössä)
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2497 2011-03-17 23:13:59 tower is now known as towerX
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2502 2011-03-17 23:18:08 <Syke> crap, no linux drivers for the new 6990!
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2504 2011-03-17 23:21:17 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
2505 2011-03-17 23:21:20 <gribble> Current Blocks: 113943 | Current Difficulty: 76193.9710474 | Next Difficulty At Block: 114911 | Next Difficulty In: 968 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 17 hours, 48 minutes, and 8 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 66684.80824767
2506 2011-03-17 23:21:44 <JFK911> man still a week to go!
2507 2011-03-17 23:22:55 <TheKid> yeah crazy that diff is gonna drop :P
2508 2011-03-17 23:24:15 <sipa> not really
2509 2011-03-17 23:24:55 <sipa> it's a bit expected after that MM hashrate surge two weeks ago
2510 2011-03-17 23:25:06 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
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2513 2011-03-17 23:54:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that is the strangest graph
2514 2011-03-17 23:55:42 <phantomcircuit> why would anybody do that
2515 2011-03-17 23:57:26 <sipa> there are theorie
2516 2011-03-17 23:57:28 <sipa> s