1 2011-03-28 00:00:08 <slush> no, it means how many other nodes are connected
   2 2011-03-28 00:00:16 <slush> they don't need to mine, they can act as relays
   3 2011-03-28 00:01:27 <Arkk> so everyone is able to confirm transactions?
   4 2011-03-28 00:01:48 <slush> everyone can mine, so everyone is able to confirm transactions, yes
   5 2011-03-28 00:01:50 <genjix> only minors
   6 2011-03-28 00:02:05 <slush> but you have to some significant hash power to solve block today
   7 2011-03-28 00:02:13 Bosma has joined
   8 2011-03-28 00:02:52 <slush> s/have to/need/
   9 2011-03-28 00:03:52 <lfm> or significant luck
  10 2011-03-28 00:04:00 <Arkk> so even when all ppl connected to the network mine BTC, their client is processing confirmations when a new block is found?
  11 2011-03-28 00:04:04 <phantomcircuit> well my client works now
  12 2011-03-28 00:04:10 <phantomcircuit> and is decenlty fast
  13 2011-03-28 00:04:16 <phantomcircuit> but sqlite is terrible with contention
  14 2011-03-28 00:05:14 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  15 2011-03-28 00:05:21 <Arkk> trancation started: 1 hour 10 minutes ago ... wow
  16 2011-03-28 00:06:52 Stellar has quit (Quit: Signed)
  17 2011-03-28 00:07:22 * [Tycho] just poured a lot of txes into the queue :)
  18 2011-03-28 00:08:02 <lfm> why?
  19 2011-03-28 00:08:07 <Arkk> how do the fees work?
  20 2011-03-28 00:08:22 <slush> payouts?
  21 2011-03-28 00:08:27 <genjix> you can specify a fee and a transaction gets processed quicker
  22 2011-03-28 00:08:38 <genjix> the higher the fee the quicker your paymentgoes
  23 2011-03-28 00:08:39 <sipa> Arkk: every client verifies transactions before forwarding them
  24 2011-03-28 00:08:48 <sipa> Arkk: but that's not a confirmation
  25 2011-03-28 00:08:58 <[Tycho]> slush, yes. Do you see this beautiful line ? :)
  26 2011-03-28 00:09:10 <sipa> confirmations are the number of blocks built on top of the block that contains the relevant transaction
  27 2011-03-28 00:09:27 <slush> [Tycho]: lol, you did both lines?
  28 2011-03-28 00:09:35 <slush> [Tycho]: looks like transaction art
  29 2011-03-28 00:09:51 <[Tycho]> No, the horizontal one is the flooder.
  30 2011-03-28 00:10:02 <genjix> i dont get it...
  31 2011-03-28 00:10:11 <Arkk> ah okay.
  32 2011-03-28 00:10:25 <genjix> [Tycho]: link?
  33 2011-03-28 00:10:30 <slush> bitcoinmonitor.com
  34 2011-03-28 00:10:34 <genjix> kk
  35 2011-03-28 00:11:08 <lfm> shows change getting smaller
  36 2011-03-28 00:11:11 <sipa> jgarzik: concerning the scratch-off cards... i'm thinking about adding a function to import+spend-to-self of a bitkeys file, like you want to do with using a scratch-off; now, if i add a way for tagging a key with a (list of) transactions, it seems you could use such a file in a QR code as scratch-off as well
  37 2011-03-28 00:11:23 <sipa> maybe some functionality can be shared
  38 2011-03-28 00:11:28 <slush> [Tycho]: is your patch for setting blocksize available? It does not have priority for me to code it, but looks like nice feature
  39 2011-03-28 00:11:37 <jgarzik> sipa: definitely
  40 2011-03-28 00:11:45 * jgarzik -> disappears for Chinese food
  41 2011-03-28 00:11:45 <Arkk> free bitcoin QR-code? xD
  42 2011-03-28 00:16:38 <sipa> free?
  43 2011-03-28 00:17:37 EPiSKiNG has quit ()
  44 2011-03-28 00:17:50 <[Tycho]> slush, the one with RPC command ?
  45 2011-03-28 00:17:55 <slush> yep
  46 2011-03-28 00:17:58 <Arkk> BitCoin in scratch-off cards?
  47 2011-03-28 00:19:51 <slush> Arkk: why not? I like the idea
  48 2011-03-28 00:20:08 <slush> Arkk: offline bitcoins :)
  49 2011-03-28 00:21:11 <lfm> Id think scratch off qr codes would be a pain, youd need to get them pretty clean
  50 2011-03-28 00:21:14 <Arkk> how would that work?
  51 2011-03-28 00:21:37 Stellar has joined
  52 2011-03-28 00:22:00 <sipa> the scratchoff card contains the private key to a bitcoin address, preloaded with some money
  53 2011-03-28 00:22:17 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  54 2011-03-28 00:22:31 <sipa> so you can sell the card (a physical object) for the value of the coins on it, as long as the buyer trusts the issuer of the card that the coins are really there
  55 2011-03-28 00:22:42 <slush> Arkk: you can trade them in real world and once you'll need to spend them in bitcoin network, you'll scratch the address and withdraw bitcoins
  56 2011-03-28 00:23:51 <sipa> and the idea was to use an id and a passcode on them, so you'd type them over
  57 2011-03-28 00:23:54 ApertureScience has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  58 2011-03-28 00:23:59 <Arkk> so i input the code if the card somewhere, and the money gets transferrred to my adress?
  59 2011-03-28 00:24:08 <slush> unfortunately I don't believe that the scratch layer will last long enough
  60 2011-03-28 00:24:25 <Arkk> how about barcode?
  61 2011-03-28 00:24:33 <slush> Arkk: ideally directly into your bitcoin client
  62 2011-03-28 00:24:47 <Arkk> so QR-code + ID?
  63 2011-03-28 00:24:56 <sipa> just a QR code :)
  64 2011-03-28 00:25:01 <JFK911> it has to be something you destroy to get the data
  65 2011-03-28 00:25:04 <Arkk> my mobile phone can read QR, my PC not
  66 2011-03-28 00:25:15 <JFK911> and can also see inside to be sure the data is intact without reading it
  67 2011-03-28 00:25:18 <Validus> make it a login to a website, and the user/pass that was selected wins
  68 2011-03-28 00:25:28 <Validus> and auto tranfers the winning to where you specify
  69 2011-03-28 00:25:38 <slush> Validus: I had this idea to, unfortunately people don't like centralization
  70 2011-03-28 00:25:43 <sipa> the thing is
  71 2011-03-28 00:25:44 <Arkk> ... ah, its like the card concept.. uhh, how are they called?
  72 2011-03-28 00:25:53 <Arkk> PAYSAFE card?
  73 2011-03-28 00:25:57 <Validus> well thats a way to fight off ppl exploiting or some kind of custom wallet or what not on it
  74 2011-03-28 00:25:59 <sipa> slush: you need to trust the issuer of the card anyway
  75 2011-03-28 00:26:05 ApertureScience has joined
  76 2011-03-28 00:26:29 <Validus> not really centralizied if its still random, its just a simple way to see if you won and send them to your client
  77 2011-03-28 00:26:41 <slush> sipa: yes, but once the issuer sold the card, he can bankrupt and you won't lose your money
  78 2011-03-28 00:26:45 <Tril> ;;bc,gen 540000
  79 2011-03-28 00:26:46 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 540000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 7.87410911021 BTC per day and 0.328087879592 BTC per hour.
  80 2011-03-28 00:26:55 <sipa> slush: yes he still can, he has the private key too
  81 2011-03-28 00:26:59 <slush> sipa: with central site to withdrawal, the site must be always available..
  82 2011-03-28 00:27:07 <sipa> that's a good point, indeed
  83 2011-03-28 00:27:23 <sipa> and i prefer decentralized withdrawal too
  84 2011-03-28 00:27:24 <slush> this was the point why I stopped thinking about this
  85 2011-03-28 00:27:58 <sipa> but maybe a QR code (decentralzed) + id/passcode for a website could be enough to trust it
  86 2011-03-28 00:28:23 <sipa> or the password derivation technique given by jgarzic on the forum could be used as well, of course
  87 2011-03-28 00:28:25 <jasonphd> usb keys with backed up wallets?
  88 2011-03-28 00:28:39 <Stellar> ;;bc,gen 104000
  89 2011-03-28 00:28:40 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 104000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 1.51649508789 BTC per day and 0.0631872953288 BTC per hour.
  90 2011-03-28 00:28:44 <Arkk> if there would be a code, that goes decentralized to the one, what had issued that code..
  91 2011-03-28 00:29:00 <slush> sipa: I had an idea about erasure coded central key for unlocking all issued cards for the case of closed site
  92 2011-03-28 00:29:06 <slush> but not sure it is good idea at all
  93 2011-03-28 00:29:21 purpleposeidon has quit (Quit: -)
  94 2011-03-28 00:29:50 <Arkk> so if I hammer 2485789249 into my client, if would e processed like an transaction. it should go to the client what has generated that code and start an (scripted) transfer to sender of code
  95 2011-03-28 00:30:23 <sipa> no
  96 2011-03-28 00:30:36 <sipa> Arkk: read the forum post about it
  97 2011-03-28 00:30:53 <sipa> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4555.0
  98 2011-03-28 00:30:53 <Arkk> url?
  99 2011-03-28 00:30:58 <jasonphd> couldn't you put a backed up wallet on a usb key and use that as your "card"? each usb key would have a different wallet with a different amount of coins in it... you trust the issuer, but it remains de-centralized
 100 2011-03-28 00:31:00 <Arkk> thx
 101 2011-03-28 00:31:21 <slush> jasonphd: good luck with selling usb keys with 1 btc inside
 102 2011-03-28 00:31:38 <slush> jasonphd: issuing paper cards is much cheaper
 103 2011-03-28 00:31:50 <sipa> jgarzik: that's my idea actually... the bitkeys format is a very concise+human readable dump of a (part of) a wallet
 104 2011-03-28 00:31:53 <sipa> oh
 105 2011-03-28 00:31:55 <sipa> jasonphd
 106 2011-03-28 00:32:11 slothbag10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 107 2011-03-28 00:32:19 <sipa> so that can be used as a physical placeholder for the money
 108 2011-03-28 00:32:27 <jasonphd> yes, usb keys would be much much more expensive... perhaps there is a way to pack just as much data on a cheaper medium?
 109 2011-03-28 00:32:33 <slush> sipa: the usb stick has one big disadvantage - receiver cannot be sure that content was not spent
 110 2011-03-28 00:32:41 <sipa> yes
 111 2011-03-28 00:32:51 <jasonphd> it could be shrinkwrapped
 112 2011-03-28 00:33:03 <sipa> slush: therefore, bitkeys -> QR -> scratchoff :)
 113 2011-03-28 00:33:34 <slush> I think cards with scratch layer are the only way how to do offline bitcoins...
 114 2011-03-28 00:33:46 <sipa> something like this (json-like format again, not sure yet about the details):
 115 2011-03-28 00:33:49 <sipa> [{key:"93XUiCERYKgqhsUoV4LYayBwnkEiv8oyEAgUJaozmwBx49BZEEV",txs:["1ECC632F358DFECBA3AD89BC165210B7DB7088DEE07EF74D2413BED18FBB575F"]}]
 116 2011-03-28 00:34:10 <sipa> encodes to a 41x41 pixel QR code
 117 2011-03-28 00:34:21 devrandom has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 118 2011-03-28 00:34:21 <jasonphd> most scratch off type cards still have a centralized management authority so that the store can activate them at the register so that kids don't jot down the numbers or steal the cards
 119 2011-03-28 00:34:38 <slush> sipa: using binary it will be much smaller
 120 2011-03-28 00:34:52 <sipa> slush: doubtful, QR is much more efficient for text than for binary
 121 2011-03-28 00:35:13 <slush> sipa: maybe you don't need to attach txid, just block where this tx was placed
 122 2011-03-28 00:35:22 <sipa> there are many possibilities
 123 2011-03-28 00:35:34 <sipa> i've suggested using the block number too
 124 2011-03-28 00:35:48 <Arkk> can QR-codes be converted into encoded-human readable format? so, you can buy them EVERYWHERE, as long they are a member of the BTC network. like printed on that thing you get when you buy something
 125 2011-03-28 00:36:10 <sipa> Arkk: they just contain text or binary data
 126 2011-03-28 00:36:23 <slush> Arkk: well, everybody who can see the qr code can spend the coins
 127 2011-03-28 00:36:29 <slush> Arkk: so you _need_ some protection...
 128 2011-03-28 00:36:41 <sipa> slush: but that means you need to wait a few blocks, and can't create a scratchoff card in one step
 129 2011-03-28 00:37:00 <sipa> still, 41x41 pixels isn't really a problem
 130 2011-03-28 00:37:11 <slush> sipa: not a problem, imho. Issuer can wait one block before he release the card :)
 131 2011-03-28 00:37:35 <sipa> yes, it's just a convenience matter
 132 2011-03-28 00:37:54 <sipa> but to a thin client, a tx id is even more useful than a block number
 133 2011-03-28 00:38:01 <Arkk> this is one sweet idea, that sratchoff thing
 134 2011-03-28 00:38:22 <slush> sipa: maybe you're right, I tried to make data as small as possible :)
 135 2011-03-28 00:38:32 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
 136 2011-03-28 00:38:33 <Arkk> hum.. but there would be a catch, if you steal all cards and rub them
 137 2011-03-28 00:38:34 <sipa> hmm, in base36 a key+txid would encode to *tada* 100 characters
 138 2011-03-28 00:38:43 * slush like the idea of selling bitcoin scratch cards in every tobacco shop
 139 2011-03-28 00:38:47 <sipa> Arkk: stealing a card = stealing money
 140 2011-03-28 00:39:29 <jasonphd> stealing a regular gift card from walmart != stealing money
 141 2011-03-28 00:39:37 <Arkk> yeah. so the cards would have to be activated on purchase, what would be nice, so any code used from an disabled card wouldnt count
 142 2011-03-28 00:39:56 <jasonphd> Arkk: but that means you need a centralized authority
 143 2011-03-28 00:40:03 <Arkk> sadly
 144 2011-03-28 00:40:11 <slush> unlike gift cards, scratch cards are real money
 145 2011-03-28 00:40:32 <slush> bitcoin scratch cards implemented as was proposed above, of course
 146 2011-03-28 00:40:41 <jasonphd> they would have to be a behind the counter type thing, like money orders
 147 2011-03-28 00:40:53 <slush> money backed by bitcoins, so it is absolutely fine that you cannot 'cancel' them
 148 2011-03-28 00:41:12 <sipa> it's still possible
 149 2011-03-28 00:41:20 <sipa> you need a centrally trusted authority anyway
 150 2011-03-28 00:41:27 <phantomcircuit> slush, scratch cards.. that's a cool idea
 151 2011-03-28 00:41:38 <sipa> otherwise there is no way for the buyer to know the coins are actually there
 152 2011-03-28 00:41:43 <Arkk> the BTC currency authority? xD
 153 2011-03-28 00:41:53 <slush> sipa: the txid can be visible
 154 2011-03-28 00:41:57 <sipa> slush: so?
 155 2011-03-28 00:42:07 <slush> sipa: so you can check if money are still here
 156 2011-03-28 00:42:13 <sipa> the key may not match the txid
 157 2011-03-28 00:42:14 <slush> only key need to be hidden
 158 2011-03-28 00:42:28 <slush> sipa: well, I expect that issuer is trustworthy
 159 2011-03-28 00:42:56 <sipa> showing the txid only allows you to check whether the card itself wasn't cracked
 160 2011-03-28 00:43:02 <slush> sipa: exactly
 161 2011-03-28 00:43:07 <sipa> that's useful
 162 2011-03-28 00:43:13 <sipa> but you *still* need to trust the issuer
 163 2011-03-28 00:43:24 <slush> sipa: of course, I didn't point on this
 164 2011-03-28 00:43:27 <sipa> ok
 165 2011-03-28 00:43:53 <Arkk> ah. the txid can be checked in the BTC explorer, right?
 166 2011-03-28 00:43:58 <sipa> yes
 167 2011-03-28 00:44:02 <sipa> or by any client
 168 2011-03-28 00:44:27 <sipa> the issuer could actually delay sending the coins to the key listed (obviously no long using the txid as identifier of the card)
 169 2011-03-28 00:44:38 <sipa> that way the card could still be activated at the shop itself
 170 2011-03-28 00:44:47 <Arkk> maybe the txid maybe visible? so i can see, that the money is there BEFORE i buy that card? you cant do anything with the txid only, right?
 171 2011-03-28 00:45:00 <sipa> Arkk: that was what slush suggested, yes
 172 2011-03-28 00:45:08 <Arkk> I refuse to buy a 50 BTC card, if it is empty
 173 2011-03-28 00:45:29 <sipa> but if i trust the issuer, that's not really required
 174 2011-03-28 00:45:29 <[Tycho]> How do you know that the key inside is for this tx number ?
 175 2011-03-28 00:45:39 <Arkk> i love  brainstorming things xD
 176 2011-03-28 00:45:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you're trusting the issuer in exactly the same way you trust the issuer of a gift card
 177 2011-03-28 00:45:44 <sipa> yes
 178 2011-03-28 00:45:53 <sipa> i trust him to put the relevant and valid private key behind the scratch-off party
 179 2011-03-28 00:45:56 <sipa> *part
 180 2011-03-28 00:46:08 <sipa> so i obviously also trust him not to give that key to anyone else
 181 2011-03-28 00:46:10 <slush> [Tycho]: card can be cracked even it was issued by trusted company
 182 2011-03-28 00:46:35 <sipa> but maybe someone found a way like x-raying to reveal the private key without scratching off
 183 2011-03-28 00:46:45 <sipa> for that case, having the txid visible is useful
 184 2011-03-28 00:46:50 <slush> [Tycho]: so visible txid cannot work against untrusted issuer, but will show you that card was cracked in meantime
 185 2011-03-28 00:47:01 <jasonphd> if you're going to have a central authority anyway, then why not just make the code behind the scratch off a brand new random central authority generated number.... you to go to the authority's website, plug in their code and your bitcoin address, transfer done.
 186 2011-03-28 00:47:26 <slush> sipa: actually, my brother tried to reveal codes in lotery cards
 187 2011-03-28 00:47:47 <slush> sipa: tried everything (as he is scientist and have access to good laboratory) - without success :)
 188 2011-03-28 00:48:01 <Arkk> is the txid tied to anything, the public or private keys of someone?
 189 2011-03-28 00:48:03 <[Tycho]> I think that in theory it's possible.
 190 2011-03-28 00:48:17 <sipa> Arkk: no, but it's derived from it
 191 2011-03-28 00:48:31 <[Tycho]> But it's not relevant to bitcoin.
 192 2011-03-28 00:48:31 <slush> [Tycho]: in theory, yes, but I think that people inventing those technologies aren't so dumb
 193 2011-03-28 00:48:43 <Arkk> so you cannot uncover sensible information by reverting the TXID?
 194 2011-03-28 00:48:46 DrQ has joined
 195 2011-03-28 00:48:49 <sipa> Arkk: no
 196 2011-03-28 00:48:53 <Arkk> good
 197 2011-03-28 00:49:00 <Arkk> security ♥
 198 2011-03-28 00:49:05 <sipa> the only sensible information is the private key
 199 2011-03-28 00:49:19 <sipa> and retrieving that requires cracking ECDSA
 200 2011-03-28 00:49:25 cboneski has joined
 201 2011-03-28 00:49:32 <Arkk> which is only stored in our wallet-dat file
 202 2011-03-28 00:49:41 <sipa> or in the QR code
 203 2011-03-28 00:50:38 <Arkk> so each QR-code has its own account?
 204 2011-03-28 00:50:45 <sipa> yes
 205 2011-03-28 00:50:50 GenTiradentes has joined
 206 2011-03-28 00:50:55 <sipa> which i prefer most... a QR code for self-redeeming a scratchoff card + url/id/passcode for issuer-website-redeeming
 207 2011-03-28 00:51:00 <slush> Arkk: one QR - one transaction
 208 2011-03-28 00:51:24 <Arkk> ok
 209 2011-03-28 00:51:52 <sipa> people may have privacy issues, eg. issuer-website-redeeming may cause logging of your IP, or some other private data
 210 2011-03-28 00:52:13 <sipa> so the ability to do anonymous redeeming of a card may actually have an advantage
 211 2011-03-28 00:52:20 <sipa> but in practice it's small
 212 2011-03-28 00:52:21 <Arkk> would be funny, if you could send money via bluetooth ,too.
 213 2011-03-28 00:52:37 <slush> sipa: I think that cards from issuer which does NOT store keys in central database may be more secure
 214 2011-03-28 00:53:18 <slush> sipa: so as an customer, I'll prefer scratch cards from the issuer which does not include username/pass into card
 215 2011-03-28 00:53:31 TippenEin_ has joined
 216 2011-03-28 00:54:08 <slush> but the central database allow some funny features for the issuer, like "best before" cards etc
 217 2011-03-28 00:54:27 <sipa> all those things are possible with a QR code too
 218 2011-03-28 00:54:37 TippenEin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 219 2011-03-28 00:54:38 TippenEin_ is now known as TippenEin
 220 2011-03-28 00:54:46 <sipa> without any username/pass redeeming (optional or not)
 221 2011-03-28 00:54:59 <GenTiradentes> Quick question. Is there any decent source of historical trade data for BTC?
 222 2011-03-28 00:55:02 <slush> sipa: no, once you release cards and don't store keys in central database, those coins are lost forever when nobody use them
 223 2011-03-28 00:55:15 <sipa> slush: how do i know they didn't store them in a database?
 224 2011-03-28 00:55:43 <slush> sipa: ok, its again about trust. but once there is login/password, you _know_ that they store it
 225 2011-03-28 00:56:16 <sipa> true, but that's a false sense of security
 226 2011-03-28 00:56:58 <slush> I won't sleep well if I have big database of sold private keys :)
 227 2011-03-28 00:57:11 <tcatm> GenTiradentes: sure, what format would you prefer?
 228 2011-03-28 00:57:51 <GenTiradentes> tcatm: Any format, the long the history, the better.
 229 2011-03-28 00:57:59 <GenTiradentes> *longer
 230 2011-03-28 00:58:02 <sipa> slush: with a custom base36-based format for private key + txid, i get it down to a 33x33 pixel QR code
 231 2011-03-28 00:58:16 <slush> nice
 232 2011-03-28 00:58:52 <tcatm> GenTiradentes: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/lasttrades.json?limit=100000000
 233 2011-03-28 00:59:18 <slush> I don't know details about qr encoding, but - dumb question - why not base64?
 234 2011-03-28 00:59:33 <GenTiradentes> tcatm: I didn't know BTC charts went back that far. That'll do, thanks.
 235 2011-03-28 01:00:33 <sipa> slush: qr code is most efficient for digits and uppercase characters
 236 2011-03-28 01:00:50 <slush> ok, that was my question
 237 2011-03-28 01:01:16 <sipa> tried it with random binary strings too... same size as base36 one
 238 2011-03-28 01:01:24 <Arkk> when each card has its own account, why don't we just use some numbers that is associated with that account as ID for the card and some password, what has a little part of the privatekey in it under the scratch-part?
 239 2011-03-28 01:02:08 <Arkk> ... hm.. this would need another centralized server holding that -.-
 240 2011-03-28 01:02:10 <sipa> Arkk: you need to know the tx to be able to spend it anyway, and that tx contains the address too
 241 2011-03-28 01:03:21 <Arkk> the TX has our adress in it?
 242 2011-03-28 01:03:47 <sipa> of course
 243 2011-03-28 01:03:56 <Arkk> >_< this is some heavy stuff
 244 2011-03-28 01:04:01 <slush> sipa: I had also idea about storing private keys directly into blocks and use qr for storing shorter password for this key. But I suppose that idea of key+tx in qr is better for some reasons
 245 2011-03-28 01:04:28 <sipa> Arkk: how can you do a transaction without at least storing somewhere whom it is to?
 246 2011-03-28 01:04:40 theorbtwo has joined
 247 2011-03-28 01:05:06 <Arkk> o.o
 248 2011-03-28 01:05:18 <slush> sipa: I had this idea because I'm not sure that QR is good enough. Who has qr reader always accessible?
 249 2011-03-28 01:05:49 <Arkk> me xD on my mobile phone - if it is charged, of course
 250 2011-03-28 01:05:58 <sipa> slush: sure, it's for the future where everyone has a bitcoin-enabled smartphone with QR reader :)
 251 2011-03-28 01:06:06 <slush> Arkk: thing about people in africa ;)
 252 2011-03-28 01:06:09 <Arkk> pay by phone?
 253 2011-03-28 01:06:22 <sipa> but the alternative is that you need to type over at least 256 bits of random data (if you want 256-bit security)
 254 2011-03-28 01:06:48 <sipa> jgarzik's idea is using only 64 bits of security, and hoping it won't be brute-forced
 255 2011-03-28 01:07:12 <Arkk> I wonder how paysafecard does this.
 256 2011-03-28 01:07:26 <Arkk> all you get is a code, right?
 257 2011-03-28 01:07:33 <slush> let's imagine that bitcoin scratch cards are the most preferred money in sub-sahara affrica, because they are backed by western technologies, not by local dictators :)
 258 2011-03-28 01:08:18 <Arkk> bread for 2 BTC, why not
 259 2011-03-28 01:08:20 <slush> not sure that everybody in affrica has qr reader
 260 2011-03-28 01:08:57 <sipa> well, trusted qr-coded bitcoin scratchoff cards could be used as a currency without having a QR reader
 261 2011-03-28 01:08:59 <Arkk> if the card is intact, it would work as some banknote *thinks*
 262 2011-03-28 01:09:10 * slush dreams
 263 2011-03-28 01:09:14 <sipa> just the knowledge it can be redeemed would be enough not needing to do so :)
 264 2011-03-28 01:09:15 <Arkk> as long the QR is unscratched
 265 2011-03-28 01:09:39 <slush> yes, sahara sand isn't ideal for scratch layer at all :-D
 266 2011-03-28 01:09:46 <Arkk> xD
 267 2011-03-28 01:09:50 <dirtyfilthy> be easier just to make fraudulent tickets
 268 2011-03-28 01:10:14 <Arkk> imagine to african argueing about a mistakenly scratched-card
 269 2011-03-28 01:10:25 <Arkk> *two
 270 2011-03-28 01:11:01 * sipa -> bed
 271 2011-03-28 01:11:06 <slush> gn
 272 2011-03-28 01:11:30 <Arkk> gn
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 276 2011-03-28 01:21:10 <Arkk> ;;bc,calc 1
 277 2011-03-28 01:21:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 9394 years, 21 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 13 minutes, and 41 seconds
 278 2011-03-28 01:21:21 <Arkk> ;;bc,calc 1000000
 279 2011-03-28 01:21:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 3 days, 10 hours, 17 minutes, and 42 seconds
 280 2011-03-28 01:21:37 <Arkk> ;;bc,calc 10000000
 281 2011-03-28 01:21:38 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 8 hours, 13 minutes, and 46 seconds
 282 2011-03-28 01:21:51 <Arkk> ;;bc,calc 1000000000
 283 2011-03-28 01:21:52 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 4 minutes and 56 seconds
 284 2011-03-28 01:22:17 <Arkk> ;;bc,gen 2050
 285 2011-03-28 01:22:18 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2050 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 0.0298924512517 BTC per day and 0.00124551880216 BTC per hour.
 286 2011-03-28 01:22:55 <Arkk> ;;bc,gen 1000000
 287 2011-03-28 01:22:56 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 14.5816835374 BTC per day and 0.607570147393 BTC per hour.
 288 2011-03-28 01:24:35 <[Tycho]> Is there anyone participating in my pool ?
 289 2011-03-28 01:24:40 genjix has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 290 2011-03-28 01:25:04 Orbixx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 291 2011-03-28 01:25:14 <Arkk> with my rate, I feel so poor...
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 296 2011-03-28 01:33:09 <ne0futur> are there travian players in the bitcoin world ?
 297 2011-03-28 01:35:49 <xelister> da2ce7: hi, can you say here what should be start of your openpgp
 298 2011-03-28 01:37:23 Arkk has left ()
 299 2011-03-28 01:41:46 trentzb has left ()
 300 2011-03-28 01:48:46 Teslah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 301 2011-03-28 01:50:42 <jasonphd> jgarzik: it looks like your script prevents cheaters based on checking to see if the result is 1. a larger number than is possible for any result or 2. a duplicate of a previously submitted result.  that seems like there is still an option for a cheater to submit random strings that are not way out of range, is that correct?  any other suggested methods of preventing cheats?
 302 2011-03-28 01:54:10 <Stellar> ;;bc.calc 117000
 303 2011-03-28 01:54:10 <gribble> Error: "bc.calc" is not a valid command.
 304 2011-03-28 01:54:18 <Stellar> ;;bc,calc 117000
 305 2011-03-28 01:54:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 117000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 4 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 22 minutes, and 34 seconds
 306 2011-03-28 01:54:33 <Stellar> ;;bc,gen 117000
 307 2011-03-28 01:54:34 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 117000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 1.70605697388 BTC per day and 0.071085707245 BTC per hour.
 308 2011-03-28 01:54:55 da2ce7 has quit ()
 309 2011-03-28 01:58:59 EPiSKiNG has joined
 310 2011-03-28 02:00:51 <TheKid> ne0futur: I'm looking at it now
 311 2011-03-28 02:00:55 <TheKid> looks good, I'll fire it up
 312 2011-03-28 02:05:22 <EPiSKiNG> how do I redeem bitcoins for USD?
 313 2011-03-28 02:08:49 <Aciid> i chose to put them in peoples butt one at a time
 314 2011-03-28 02:10:35 <Aciid> I smell poopoo
 315 2011-03-28 02:11:13 <ne0futur> EPiSKiNG: use mtgox and changing mtg$ for pp$ or LR$
 316 2011-03-28 02:11:27 <ne0futur> EP/join #bitcoin-otc
 317 2011-03-28 02:11:54 <ne0futur> EPiSKiNG: or finding someone to bbuy bitcoins directly with paypal
 318 2011-03-28 02:12:04 <ne0futur> but you  need a reputation and wot
 319 2011-03-28 02:12:44 <ne0futur> = web of trust
 320 2011-03-28 02:12:44 <TheKid> ne0futur: you need reputation less if you're selling for PPUSD
 321 2011-03-28 02:12:53 <TheKid> er, selling bitcoins
 322 2011-03-28 02:13:02 <TheKid> because bitcoins can't be charged back ;)
 323 2011-03-28 02:13:22 * Aciid trades bitcoins with a baseball bat
 324 2011-03-28 02:13:31 <Aciid> fuck every stinkin scammer
 325 2011-03-28 02:14:05 <ne0futur> sa reason why the wot system of #bitcoin-otc is great to me
 326 2011-03-28 02:14:27 <Aciid> had a brief with noagendamarket and other fellows at otc yesterday, they said its better to lose hundreds in process whilst findin a technique to repell scammers than going to authorities
 327 2011-03-28 02:14:31 <Aciid> stinkin anarchist scum
 328 2011-03-28 02:14:36 <Aciid> OTC is great
 329 2011-03-28 02:14:40 <Aciid> even i use it
 330 2011-03-28 02:14:50 <Aciid> but I find it sad that bitcoin got mainstream
 331 2011-03-28 02:15:11 <ne0futur> a secure way of exhanging is necessary
 332 2011-03-28 02:15:15 <ne0futur> otc is great for this
 333 2011-03-28 02:15:25 <xelister> it is ok to connect several miners to same normal bitcoind ?
 334 2011-03-28 02:15:26 <ne0futur> but there are other ways to exchange btcs
 335 2011-03-28 02:15:30 <xelister> e.g. all miners do RPC calls
 336 2011-03-28 02:15:32 <ne0futur> more "popuar"
 337 2011-03-28 02:15:48 <Aciid> xelister: no idea, I had several miners one pool account tho
 338 2011-03-28 02:15:48 <xelister> in unmodified normal bitcoind still each miner will get own keyspace to search so all is ok?
 339 2011-03-28 02:16:58 jzknight has left ()
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 343 2011-03-28 02:21:38 purpleposeidon has joined
 344 2011-03-28 02:22:26 <[Tycho]> Yes.
 345 2011-03-28 02:22:56 Diablo-D3 has joined
 346 2011-03-28 02:23:51 justmoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 347 2011-03-28 02:29:12 theymos has joined
 348 2011-03-28 02:29:58 <curiositysquared> Do I have to broadcast a tx to the network? Or could I modify my client to not do that in just incorporate it in my mining until I find a block containing my tx and then send it to the network?
 349 2011-03-28 02:29:59 <TheKid> Aciid: are you an idiot or a troll?
 350 2011-03-28 02:30:07 <TheKid> Or what
 351 2011-03-28 02:30:17 <curiositysquared> lol
 352 2011-03-28 02:30:36 <theymos> curiositysquared: You could choose not to broadcast it.
 353 2011-03-28 02:30:36 <TheKid> curiositysquared: you could technically modify a client to make blocks with your transaction in it and not broadcast to others
 354 2011-03-28 02:30:38 <curiositysquared> why is there so much bashing going on.
 355 2011-03-28 02:30:42 <TheKid> but that'd defeat the purpose
 356 2011-03-28 02:30:55 <curiositysquared> just making sure I understand correctly.
 357 2011-03-28 02:31:10 <curiositysquared> ... I came here for a reason but got distracted reading the back log.
 358 2011-03-28 02:31:15 <curiositysquared> sipa seems to have left.
 359 2011-03-28 02:31:31 <theymos> tcatm: I fixed /q/totalbc. (I wrote that calculator before the block numbering scheme was changed -- it was accurate then.)
 360 2011-03-28 02:33:00 <Aciid> TheKid: bit of both
 361 2011-03-28 02:34:43 [Tycho] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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 366 2011-03-28 02:39:50 <tcatm> theymos: shouldn't getblockcount return one more, too?
 367 2011-03-28 02:40:41 <theymos> No. It reports it as Bitcoin does. Bitcoin used to count the genesis block in getblockcount, but this was changed.
 368 2011-03-28 02:41:23 <theymos> I should change the description on the index, though.
 369 2011-03-28 02:41:28 cboneski has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 370 2011-03-28 02:42:17 <curiositysquared> sipa, we were talking about the stability of the difficulty between periods if the network hash rate were constant. The equations for the 95% confidence interval on the block generation rate are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution#Confidence_interval
 371 2011-03-28 02:42:17 <tcatm> that's confusing :)
 372 2011-03-28 02:44:44 <theymos> It used to be that RPC getblocknumber returned the block number discounting the genesis block and getblockcount returned the actual number of blocks. For some reason getblocknumber became obsolete and getblockcount's behavior was changed to be the same as getblocknumber, instead of obsoleting getblockcount and always using getblocknumber. Not very intuitive.
 373 2011-03-28 02:45:27 <tcatm> yep
 374 2011-03-28 02:45:58 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 375 2011-03-28 02:45:59 <tcatm> I wonder if anything would brake if we'd fix that.
 376 2011-03-28 02:46:18 npouillard has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 385 2011-03-28 03:09:14 <[Tycho]> I did it !
 386 2011-03-28 03:09:19 <Aciid> great!
 387 2011-03-28 03:09:54 <lfm> tcatm: as I remember it the block count was changed to be the same as the bock number such that the genesis block is not counted to be a regular block and so newbies who are not used to the computer way of starting numbering things at 0 will be less confused
 388 2011-03-28 03:12:06 <CIA-96> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r5d637bc / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fixed another error handling bug - http://bit.ly/f14MlW
 389 2011-03-28 03:18:59 jostmey has quit (Quit: jostmey)
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 393 2011-03-28 03:24:04 jasonphd has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 394 2011-03-28 03:26:26 jostmey has quit (Quit: jostmey)
 395 2011-03-28 03:26:42 da2ce7 has joined
 396 2011-03-28 03:29:08 <tcatm> lfm: I see. It still feels wrong.
 397 2011-03-28 03:29:53 jostmey has joined
 398 2011-03-28 03:32:05 <lfm> tcatm: ya for people used to zero based counting it is kinda unexpected
 399 2011-03-28 03:32:56 wolfspraul has joined
 400 2011-03-28 03:33:07 <lfm> but anyway its prolly not a good idea to try to change it back right now
 401 2011-03-28 03:34:18 Orbixx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 402 2011-03-28 03:34:23 <tcatm> Actually, it makes sense using the height to calculate total bitcoins.
 403 2011-03-28 03:35:25 <lfm> you mean like (height +1) * 50?
 404 2011-03-28 03:35:41 Minert has left ()
 405 2011-03-28 03:35:47 <tcatm> no
 406 2011-03-28 03:35:57 Orbixx has joined
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 408 2011-03-28 03:35:57 Orbixx has joined
 409 2011-03-28 03:36:27 <tcatm> like Sum[5000000000/2^Floor[k/210000], {k, 0, Infinity}]
 410 2011-03-28 03:36:53 <tcatm> if we start with 1 it won't be 21M coins
 411 2011-03-28 03:37:02 overtorque has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 412 2011-03-28 03:38:20 <lfm> oh ya, for that you have to treat the genisis block as first and regular
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 426 2011-03-28 04:13:04 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 429 2011-03-28 04:15:48 Vladimir has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 430 2011-03-28 04:16:17 <phantomcircuit> heh
 431 2011-03-28 04:19:33 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 432 2011-03-28 04:19:46 <phantomcircuit> so my client works
 433 2011-03-28 04:19:55 <phantomcircuit> but contention with the sqlite db is totally fucking it up
 434 2011-03-28 04:20:27 npouillard has joined
 435 2011-03-28 04:21:03 <Diablo-D3> well, sqlite doesnt allow seamless banging of the db
 436 2011-03-28 04:23:33 vmsalas has quit (Quit: Just fell asleep...)
 437 2011-03-28 04:25:48 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lulz
 438 2011-03-28 04:25:57 <phantomcircuit> BANGING THE DATABASE BRB
 439 2011-03-28 04:26:12 <phantomcircuit> it's actually select queries that're taking up most of the time now
 440 2011-03-28 04:26:14 * Diablo-D3 smacks phantomcircuit 
 441 2011-03-28 04:26:16 <phantomcircuit> so that's an improvement
 442 2011-03-28 04:30:17 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
 443 2011-03-28 04:31:14 <phantomcircuit> inserting 500 blocks takes  upwards of 30 seconds
 444 2011-03-28 04:31:21 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 445 2011-03-28 04:31:26 <phantomcircuit> of which 0.6 are spent actually INSERT/commit
 446 2011-03-28 04:36:50 <[Tycho]> ;;bc.stat
 447 2011-03-28 04:36:50 <gribble> Error: "bc.stat" is not a valid command.
 448 2011-03-28 04:36:54 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stat
 449 2011-03-28 04:36:54 <gribble> Error: "bc,stat" is not a valid command.
 450 2011-03-28 04:36:56 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
 451 2011-03-28 04:36:58 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115378 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1549 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 5 hours, 15 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 72798.64671084
 452 2011-03-28 04:38:38 Silverpike has quit ()
 453 2011-03-28 04:44:15 vmsalas has joined
 454 2011-03-28 04:44:15 vmsalas has quit (Client Quit)
 455 2011-03-28 04:51:12 vmsalas has joined
 456 2011-03-28 04:51:18 vmsalas has quit (Client Quit)
 457 2011-03-28 04:52:15 jostmey has quit (Quit: jostmey)
 458 2011-03-28 04:54:30 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 459 2011-03-28 04:55:52 <Diablo-D3> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2037453/nvidias-gtx590-fried-software-driver
 460 2011-03-28 04:55:53 <Diablo-D3> LOL
 461 2011-03-28 04:55:54 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
 462 2011-03-28 04:58:24 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: ^
 463 2011-03-28 04:59:01 <[Tycho]> Lol.
 464 2011-03-28 05:01:25 qwebirc77490 has joined
 465 2011-03-28 05:01:51 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 466 2011-03-28 05:25:47 gasteve has quit (Quit: gasteve)
 467 2011-03-28 05:30:00 <phantomcircuit> so my friend has a XFX 587X-ZNFC and it's sitting at about 50C
 468 2011-03-28 05:30:03 <phantomcircuit> doing nothing
 469 2011-03-28 05:30:07 <phantomcircuit> is this typical?
 470 2011-03-28 05:31:04 robotarmy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 471 2011-03-28 05:31:16 puddinpop has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 472 2011-03-28 05:31:50 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 473 2011-03-28 05:32:30 curiositysquared has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 474 2011-03-28 05:33:09 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 477 2011-03-28 05:42:57 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 478 2011-03-28 05:44:42 Enochian has quit (Quit: BitchX Official FTP Site -- ftp://ftp.bitchx.com)
 479 2011-03-28 05:47:02 jostmey has joined
 480 2011-03-28 05:47:58 <da2ce7> ;;seen FellowTraveler
 481 2011-03-28 05:52:08 u2time has joined
 482 2011-03-28 05:52:15 imdumb has joined
 483 2011-03-28 05:52:24 <u2time> how do you adjust your client to not accept free transactions?
 484 2011-03-28 05:52:32 * imdumb tips his hat.
 485 2011-03-28 05:53:02 doublec has joined
 486 2011-03-28 05:53:02 <imdumb> Oh, wow.  Did this just broadcast my IP? Awesome.
 487 2011-03-28 05:53:03 doublec has quit (Changing host)
 488 2011-03-28 05:53:03 doublec has joined
 489 2011-03-28 05:56:48 <imdumb> u2time: I'm not sure, but why would you want to prohibit receiving btc?
 490 2011-03-28 05:56:49 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, if you're on irc then you're disclosing your ip
 491 2011-03-28 05:57:22 <imdumb> phantomcircuit: unless you're using a hostmask... I believe freenode provides a free "cloaking" service.
 492 2011-03-28 05:57:29 jostmey has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 493 2011-03-28 05:57:49 <Validus> if your connected on the internet your ip is already broadcasted no matter what you went through
 494 2011-03-28 05:58:23 <imdumb> True.
 495 2011-03-28 05:58:27 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, yeah but you have to convince staff to turn it on
 496 2011-03-28 05:58:32 <phantomcircuit> and i've yet to do so
 497 2011-03-28 05:59:34 <imdumb> phantomcircuit: actually it's very simple.  Their rules are described on their website.  Typically you only need to register the alias you want with nickserv, and then group fallback name, alias_ for example, to your registered account.
 498 2011-03-28 05:59:46 <imdumb> oh well, doesn't really matter.
 499 2011-03-28 05:59:58 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, yeah and then go and ask someonein #freenode to enable it
 500 2011-03-28 06:00:08 <phantomcircuit> except i've yet to actually be able to do that last step
 501 2011-03-28 06:00:12 <phantomcircuit> nobody is ever there
 502 2011-03-28 06:00:23 <Validus> their there , their just lurking
 503 2011-03-28 06:00:23 <imdumb> phantomcircuit: yes, correct.  Really?  I've never had a problem with it.
 504 2011-03-28 06:00:30 <imdumb> exactly.
 505 2011-03-28 06:00:49 <Validus> i forgot my nickserv pass they had it reset in about 10 mins
 506 2011-03-28 06:00:51 <imdumb> oh well, back to the wiki I go.... Need to brush up a bit before I ask my question(s).
 507 2011-03-28 06:00:53 <Validus> then it went back to lurking
 508 2011-03-28 06:00:54 <Validus> hehe
 509 2011-03-28 06:00:57 <imdumb> Yup
 510 2011-03-28 06:01:04 <imdumb> They're pretty good about stuf flike that.
 511 2011-03-28 06:01:18 <imdumb> I wonder if this nick is registered, I think I may just take it.
 512 2011-03-28 06:01:36 <imdumb> *stuff
 513 2011-03-28 06:02:23 <phantomcircuit> Validus, actually the only time i've ever gotten help was in resetting a nickserv pass
 514 2011-03-28 06:02:26 <phantomcircuit> that wasn't mine...
 515 2011-03-28 06:02:33 <phantomcircuit> :shrug:
 516 2011-03-28 06:02:41 <Validus> ya they lurking hehe
 517 2011-03-28 06:05:47 alias4201 has joined
 518 2011-03-28 06:07:37 tylergillies has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 519 2011-03-28 06:07:43 tylergillies has joined
 520 2011-03-28 06:07:43 tylergillies has quit (Changing host)
 521 2011-03-28 06:07:43 tylergillies has joined
 522 2011-03-28 06:07:49 <imdumb> OKay, here goes....
 523 2011-03-28 06:07:58 <alias4201> gogogogogogogogo
 524 2011-03-28 06:08:34 <imdumb> I've read most of the documentation, I've been mining for a few days or so, and now I'm going to ask a question about the 'limit' of two decimal places.
 525 2011-03-28 06:09:17 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 526 2011-03-28 06:09:18 <imdumb> I've read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_divisible_are_Bitcoins? , and I'm wondering about "the program currently accepts only 2 decimal places..."
 527 2011-03-28 06:09:57 Harri_ has joined
 528 2011-03-28 06:10:06 <Keefe> afaik, if you use the rpc interface, you can use more than two decimal places
 529 2011-03-28 06:10:13 <imdumb> First off, does that mean if someone, somehow, sends a transaction with a value smaller than two-decimal places: say 10.007864, or something, that it will be truncated to 10?
 530 2011-03-28 06:10:21 <Keefe> no
 531 2011-03-28 06:10:26 dissipate has joined
 532 2011-03-28 06:10:27 <imdumb> okay, that's cool.
 533 2011-03-28 06:10:46 <Keefe> if someone's client lets them send a more precise amount like that, you will get it
 534 2011-03-28 06:11:10 <Keefe> if your client rounds to two, you may have a problem spending it though
 535 2011-03-28 06:11:19 <imdumb> gotchya, and the official client currently doesn't support sending more precise transactions?  If that's the case, what happens if the official client receives a more precise one?
 536 2011-03-28 06:11:34 <imdumb> I'm using the official client, just to establish that.
 537 2011-03-28 06:11:49 <Keefe> meaning, you might try to spend 10.007864 but you actually end up sending 10.00 and losing .007864
 538 2011-03-28 06:11:52 <[Tycho]> You will receive it, but they will turn into fee when you use it as change.
 539 2011-03-28 06:12:22 <imdumb> Oh, hy Tycho.  I've used your pool a bit.  Have some question for you as well, but I'll defer those to the forum.
 540 2011-03-28 06:12:24 <imdumb> *hi
 541 2011-03-28 06:12:28 <[Tycho]> Hello.
 542 2011-03-28 06:12:46 <Keefe> i haven't tried myself, but i think even with the mainline (official) client, you can work with full precision with bitcoind CLI
 543 2011-03-28 06:12:51 <imdumb> Fees... yeah, I'm not too clear on those just yet.  I'll read more about them before inquiring, though.
 544 2011-03-28 06:13:12 <imdumb> Keefe: I would assume so, since it displays values in their full 8-place glory.
 545 2011-03-28 06:13:33 <[Tycho]> This fee will be given to the block's owner.
 546 2011-03-28 06:13:38 <Keefe> if you test it, let me know if it works right
 547 2011-03-28 06:13:57 <imdumb> [Tycho]: ah!  So fees go to the person who 'discovered' a block?
 548 2011-03-28 06:14:05 <Keefe> the fee is given to whoever creates the block that includes that txn
 549 2011-03-28 06:14:10 <imdumb> Is that the block that crunches the transaction?
 550 2011-03-28 06:14:16 <imdumb> ah, nice.
 551 2011-03-28 06:14:23 <[Tycho]> The block that includes your transaction.
 552 2011-03-28 06:14:31 <imdumb> right, that's what I meant by 'crunches'.
 553 2011-03-28 06:14:40 <Keefe> it serves as an incentive to miners to publish your transaction
 554 2011-03-28 06:14:56 <[Tycho]> But you can try to avoid loosing this.
 555 2011-03-28 06:14:57 <imdumb> Keefe: could you elaborate?
 556 2011-03-28 06:15:17 <Keefe> most miners will only publish (include in a block) a limited number of free txns
 557 2011-03-28 06:15:41 <imdumb> uhm, doesn't that undermine the integrity of the blockchain?
 558 2011-03-28 06:15:44 <u2time> as a miner how do limit free txn's?
 559 2011-03-28 06:15:46 <Keefe> if you find your txns taking too long to get their first confirmation, you may want to start offering a small fee
 560 2011-03-28 06:16:09 <imdumb> brb, need some water.
 561 2011-03-28 06:16:44 <Keefe> imdumb: no, since nodes are required to accept any valid block (regardless of whether the publisher got fees from it)
 562 2011-03-28 06:16:49 benc has joined
 563 2011-03-28 06:16:51 <[Tycho]> u2time, usually low priority free txes are already limited to 4 Kb
 564 2011-03-28 06:17:02 <Keefe> so once someone includes a txn in a block, it's good from then on
 565 2011-03-28 06:17:30 <imdumb> back
 566 2011-03-28 06:17:39 benc is now known as bxc
 567 2011-03-28 06:17:40 <Keefe> u2time: if you want to change your miner's policies, you'd need to edit and recompile the source
 568 2011-03-28 06:18:35 Harri_ has left ()
 569 2011-03-28 06:19:17 <imdumb> keefe: but if blocks are comprised of the transaction history, then doesn't excluding transactions because they have no fees associated with them limit, or inhibit, the visibility of transactions that have transpired?
 570 2011-03-28 06:19:40 <Keefe> for example, there's nothing stopping you from changing your miner to accept unlimited free txns. if you then successfully make a block, all of those enter the blockchain
 571 2011-03-28 06:19:59 <Keefe> problem is that would further encourage spam
 572 2011-03-28 06:20:14 <imdumb> Note: I have not read the whitepaper linked through bitcoin.org --- it's on my ToDo list, though =D
 573 2011-03-28 06:20:20 <Keefe> we already have people juggling a single penny back and forth between the same two addresses, clogging up the free txn space
 574 2011-03-28 06:20:28 <u2time> i assume spam is to slow down miners right? so the spammer has an advantage
 575 2011-03-28 06:20:37 <Keefe> i don't know
 576 2011-03-28 06:21:26 <Keefe> imdumb: yes, but there's likely to always be someone willing to publish your free txn eventually
 577 2011-03-28 06:21:49 <Keefe> if you get impatient, offer a small fee
 578 2011-03-28 06:22:14 <imdumb> Hmm, but if there's a lag in the transaction visibility ,then I could (hypothetically) double-spend the BTC included in that ignored transaction (intentionally or otherwise)...
 579 2011-03-28 06:22:48 <imdumb> My concern is not with receiving or having received a transaction, but rather ensuring the integrity of the blockchain.
 580 2011-03-28 06:22:52 <Keefe> no, i believe all nodes keep track of all txns even before they're published
 581 2011-03-28 06:23:01 <imdumb> ah, okay.
 582 2011-03-28 06:23:08 <Keefe> so an attempt to double spend would be ignored by everyone
 583 2011-03-28 06:23:22 <phantomcircuit> also most clients wont confirm a transaction until it's included in multiple blocks
 584 2011-03-28 06:23:30 <imdumb> I guess I should re-read the double-spend sections.
 585 2011-03-28 06:23:33 <Keefe> i'm not sure of that though, since that sounds like another way nodes would be vulnerable to a spam DoS
 586 2011-03-28 06:23:34 <phantomcircuit> iirc 6 is the default
 587 2011-03-28 06:24:08 <Keefe> phantomcircuit: it's just a cosmetic thing in the main client
 588 2011-03-28 06:24:24 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, cosmetics are important here
 589 2011-03-28 06:24:26 <Keefe> you can spend from txns that say "1/unconfirmed"
 590 2011-03-28 06:24:40 <Keefe> maybe even "0/unconfirmed"
 591 2011-03-28 06:25:06 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, yes you can
 592 2011-03-28 06:25:09 <Keefe> now, many services do require 6, or more. for example, MtGox won't credit your account until at least 6
 593 2011-03-28 06:25:09 <phantomcircuit> but you shouldn't
 594 2011-03-28 06:25:47 <phantomcircuit> you're gambling that the previous transaction will be valid
 595 2011-03-28 06:25:55 <imdumb> Just to be clear, confirmation means publication in a block. Correct?
 596 2011-03-28 06:25:56 <Keefe> personally, for small trades like 50 BTC, if i don't have a bad feeling about the sender, i'll accept just the txn broadcast even with 0 confirmations
 597 2011-03-28 06:26:03 <phantomcircuit> imdumb, yes
 598 2011-03-28 06:26:19 <Keefe> the first confirmation, yes
 599 2011-03-28 06:26:22 Silverpike has joined
 600 2011-03-28 06:26:41 <Keefe> subsequent confirmations just represent additional blocks added to the chain building upon the first one
 601 2011-03-28 06:26:47 <imdumb> "small trades like 50 BTC", hah, and I'm enjoying seeing my wallet value increase from that initial 0.05. >_<
 602 2011-03-28 06:26:57 <Keefe> small is relative
 603 2011-03-28 06:27:23 <imdumb> Anyway, let's get back to the precision thing.
 604 2011-03-28 06:27:31 <Keefe> whatever you're willing to risk to that particular vulnerability
 605 2011-03-28 06:27:33 <phantomcircuit> brb
 606 2011-03-28 06:27:35 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 607 2011-03-28 06:27:36 <imdumb> Such is my current concern/interest, and purpose for the visit.
 608 2011-03-28 06:30:23 <imdumb> [01:59] <Keefe> afaik, if you use the rpc interface, you can use more than two decimal places
 609 2011-03-28 06:30:56 <imdumb> I've only used the CLI, bitcoind, interface and a GPU miner.  I've /seen/ the GUI, but only briefly.
 610 2011-03-28 06:31:44 <imdumb> Do the commands I issue to bitcoind, i.e. ~/bitcoind help, constitute the "rpc interface" you spoke of?
 611 2011-03-28 06:31:48 <Keefe> RPC is how bitcoind when run with a command like sendtoaddress, talks to the running bitcoin
 612 2011-03-28 06:32:11 <Keefe> yes
 613 2011-03-28 06:32:55 <imdumb> alright, so presumably if I specified a decimal value with greater precision through the CLI command I would not need to worry about truncation. (as per our prior discussion)
 614 2011-03-28 06:33:06 <Keefe> you should test it
 615 2011-03-28 06:33:20 <imdumb> I will just read the source, but after I've read the white paper.
 616 2011-03-28 06:37:08 doublec has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 617 2011-03-28 06:37:19 doublec has joined
 618 2011-03-28 06:37:38 doublec has quit (Changing host)
 619 2011-03-28 06:37:38 doublec has joined
 620 2011-03-28 06:38:51 <imdumb> It then stands to reason that (if the RPC interface /is/ capable of great precision) all pools should be able to make and receive payouts with better-than-two places: since they rely, or such is my understanding, on the RPC interface.  Right?  And no, I'm not ultimately suggesting that I feel cheated, I'm just trying to understand our system.
 621 2011-03-28 06:39:01 <imdumb> sorry for the long lines....
 622 2011-03-28 06:39:49 <Keefe> np
 623 2011-03-28 06:40:17 <Keefe> i think the pools prefer to work with just two decimal places is because many people's clients only display to two anyway
 624 2011-03-28 06:40:43 <Keefe> i do with the gui clients had an option to display full precision
 625 2011-03-28 06:40:46 <Keefe> wish*
 626 2011-03-28 06:40:47 <imdumb> Is it written anywhere officially that transactions with greater precision are not lost to the void?  Yes, in that wiki FAQ I linked, but that isn't exactly ... conclusive isn't the word i want, but shall suffice.
 627 2011-03-28 06:41:21 <tcatm> Keefe: latest git supports full precision (gui + rpc)
 628 2011-03-28 06:41:24 <Keefe> well, i can assure you the network and protocol itself works with 8 dec places
 629 2011-03-28 06:41:30 <Keefe> oh, nice
 630 2011-03-28 06:41:40 <imdumb> keefe: that makes sense, but just because it only displays two-points, surely it is still capable of handling more.  I mean, the official client certainly can, right?
 631 2011-03-28 06:41:54 <imdumb> tcatm: good to know.
 632 2011-03-28 06:42:35 <Keefe> in the protocol, all btc values are stored as integers, like 5000000000 for 50.00 BTC
 633 2011-03-28 06:43:20 <imdumb> ah, very interesting.
 634 2011-03-28 06:43:28 gribble has joined
 635 2011-03-28 06:43:35 <Keefe> it's only when displayed that the decimla point is inserted and the extra precision sometimes discarded
 636 2011-03-28 06:43:39 Zenith77 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 637 2011-03-28 06:43:53 <imdumb> So we're doing with very big numbers here.... 2100000000000000, ultimately.
 638 2011-03-28 06:44:09 <Keefe> yep
 639 2011-03-28 06:44:29 <imdumb> ah, I really should read the source and white paper.  I thought all the "integer" talk was strictly for solving the SHA256 stuff.
 640 2011-03-28 06:44:42 <Keefe> so when people criticize the "small" total quantity, just point out the divisibility
 641 2011-03-28 06:45:02 <Keefe> "but you can't run a whole nation's economy on only 21M BTC"
 642 2011-03-28 06:45:19 curiositysquared has joined
 643 2011-03-28 06:45:21 FabianB_ has joined
 644 2011-03-28 06:45:32 <Keefe> or "but there's not enough physical gold to go around"
 645 2011-03-28 06:45:37 <Keefe> just divide further
 646 2011-03-28 06:46:07 <Keefe> 2100000000000000 base units is just fine
 647 2011-03-28 06:46:51 doublec has quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0)
 648 2011-03-28 06:46:52 <Keefe> sure, 1 BTC (100000000 base units) will have to be worth a whole lot more that now, but nothing technically prevents that
 649 2011-03-28 06:46:59 <Keefe> *than now
 650 2011-03-28 06:47:07 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 651 2011-03-28 06:47:08 <imdumb> I've been wondering if we'll see emerging bitcoin markets within nations where they have their own blockchain for themselves.  THat is, the global bitcoin (BTC, what we have now), and additional bitcoin inspired currencies per nation: cryptoeuro, cryptousd, cryptorub, etcetera.
 652 2011-03-28 06:47:33 <Keefe> that wouldn't be wise, imo
 653 2011-03-28 06:47:36 <imdumb> keefe: yeah, the 21M cap doesn't appear an issue to me, just means a single BTC will be more valuable.
 654 2011-03-28 06:47:43 <Keefe> yep
 655 2011-03-28 06:48:16 <Keefe> a smaller regional block chain would be vulnerable to sabotage by a much bigger nation's collective processing power
 656 2011-03-28 06:48:38 <Keefe> a single global block chain is strongest
 657 2011-03-28 06:48:46 <imdumb> keefe: how come?  I think it /might/ work since that's how it already is: USD, Yen, Euro, BTC.  With each nation having it's own bit-currency (blockchain) you remove the flaws with the existing monetary system (insecurity).  I'm not suggesting getting rid of BTC, rather that BTC would be the global standard.
 658 2011-03-28 06:49:21 <Keefe> this vulnerability isn't directly comparable to existing national currencies
 659 2011-03-28 06:49:42 <Keefe> BTC is supported by massive processing power
 660 2011-03-28 06:49:52 <imdumb> I just see great value in the principles in a cryptocurrency, and think it might make nations more willing to accept it: even if they can change the total value, as they can now (cryptoUSD could still 'print' total money, for example), but BTC would still only have 21M.  People familiar with today's system have their familiarity.
 661 2011-03-28 06:50:00 <Keefe> if an adversary with even more processing power wanted to cause trouble, they can
 662 2011-03-28 06:50:24 <Keefe> just by switching some of their miners to the weaker block chain and double spending or other attacks
 663 2011-03-28 06:51:34 <Keefe> i'm sure this subject has been hashed over many times in the forums. i'm far from an authority on this subject
 664 2011-03-28 06:51:38 <tcatm> chains could share processing power, that's not a big problem
 665 2011-03-28 06:51:39 <imdumb> True, but with the global BTC available wouldn't doing something like that (forcing their currency to a new blockchain) criplle their exchange rate?  I certainly don't know, I'm no economist, I was just pondering if there would be a benefit to the global BTC currency, with multiple local cryptocurrencies.
 666 2011-03-28 06:52:01 <imdumb> criple*
 667 2011-03-28 06:52:16 <imdumb> ... *criplle was right the first  time >_>
 668 2011-03-28 06:52:22 <Keefe> cripple
 669 2011-03-28 06:52:32 <imdumb> that too ;)
 670 2011-03-28 06:53:09 <imdumb> brb
 671 2011-03-28 06:53:21 <joepie91> mm
 672 2011-03-28 06:53:24 <joepie91> suppose you had a botnet
 673 2011-03-28 06:53:28 <joepie91> that would have more processing power
 674 2011-03-28 06:53:31 <joepie91> than the entire current network
 675 2011-03-28 06:53:41 <joepie91> ... would it be possible to manipulate and ultimately crash the bitcoin network?
 676 2011-03-28 06:53:51 <Keefe> hopefully someday that will be out of reach of even the biggest botnets
 677 2011-03-28 06:54:04 <joepie91> but right now that is a vulnerability, right?
 678 2011-03-28 06:54:15 nanotube has joined
 679 2011-03-28 06:54:23 <Keefe> to some extent. i'm not sure how much disruption can actually be caused
 680 2011-03-28 06:54:42 <joepie91> fake confirmations?
 681 2011-03-28 06:54:58 <dissipate> joepie91, one problem. once it was detected that the network was under attack, bitcoins would either drop a huge amount in value or become worthless. thus, the monetary incentive of attacking is that not great.
 682 2011-03-28 06:55:15 <joepie91> I know
 683 2011-03-28 06:55:21 <joepie91> the issue is not a monetary incentive
 684 2011-03-28 06:55:25 <joepie91> the issue would be an ideological incentive
 685 2011-03-28 06:55:54 <joepie91> assuming a worst case scenario
 686 2011-03-28 06:55:58 <dissipate> i would venture to say there is a LOT more to be made in the extremely vulnerable payment systems like credit cards and bank accounts
 687 2011-03-28 06:56:04 <imdumb> Indeed, I think the biggest threat to BTC are those against it on principle: like nations whose currency would be devalued by the ideas behind BTC.
 688 2011-03-28 06:56:08 <joepie91> what if there is a massive russian botnet crew that does not agree with BTC
 689 2011-03-28 06:56:19 <joepie91> for whatever reason
 690 2011-03-28 06:56:29 <joepie91> or, assuming governments have control over botnets which wouldn't be unlikely
 691 2011-03-28 06:56:33 <joepie91> a government wanted to shut down BTC?
 692 2011-03-28 06:56:35 <imdumb> joe: or more likely, the russian government itself who wouldn't like BTC
 693 2011-03-28 06:56:37 <joepie91> all worst case scenarios here
 694 2011-03-28 06:56:47 <joepie91> yes, exactly
 695 2011-03-28 06:56:58 <dissipate> joepie91, one problem with that. the botnet would have to have high end GPUs. a lot of them.
 696 2011-03-28 06:57:10 <dissipate> a botnet with just CPUs would be much less likely to take over
 697 2011-03-28 06:57:11 <joepie91> shouldn't be a problem for a government.
 698 2011-03-28 06:57:29 <dissipate> people would notice if their GPUs went to 100% usage
 699 2011-03-28 06:57:31 <imdumb> a cluster, grid, or 'cloud' setup wouldn't be a threat?
 700 2011-03-28 06:57:43 <lfm> joepie91: the ruu
 701 2011-03-28 06:57:48 <joepie91> buy a heap of high end GPUs to take out a currency that might potentially threaten the <insert fiat currency here>, and cause losses for them
 702 2011-03-28 06:57:51 <imdumb> dissipate: not if they're asleep, or it only engages if there is no keyboard/mouse activity.
 703 2011-03-28 06:58:01 <lfm> joepie91: the russians love bitcoin tho
 704 2011-03-28 06:58:03 <joepie91> that does not seem too unlikely for me
 705 2011-03-28 06:58:08 <dissipate> joepie91, no doubt. actually, a government would be better off just spending several million dollars on custom hardware to outrun the GPUs.
 706 2011-03-28 06:58:10 <joepie91> yes, but the issue is - what if someone doesn't?
 707 2011-03-28 06:58:15 <joepie91> and yes
 708 2011-03-28 06:58:16 <joepie91> exactly
 709 2011-03-28 06:58:19 <joepie91> you have to assume worst case
 710 2011-03-28 06:58:25 <joepie91> when you design something like this
 711 2011-03-28 06:58:44 <dissipate> $5 million or so could get you custom silicon chips
 712 2011-03-28 06:58:50 <joepie91> and worst case would probably be a government that doesn't like the potential losses for themselves if bitcoin gets big... and has the money to invest in custom processing units
 713 2011-03-28 06:59:06 <joepie91> _if_ that happened, it would be possible to kill bitcoin, right?
 714 2011-03-28 06:59:12 <[Tycho]> 0.5 mln is enough :)
 715 2011-03-28 06:59:16 <imdumb> or just bullies [chip-manufacturer] into doing their bidding.
 716 2011-03-28 06:59:27 <joepie91> that, too
 717 2011-03-28 06:59:39 <lfm> joepie91: most scenarios show cooperating with bitcoin is more profitable than disrupting it
 718 2011-03-28 06:59:39 <dissipate> i doubt bitcoin is on their radar, and when it does get on the radar, those invested in bitcoin will have a big incentive to beat the government.
 719 2011-03-28 06:59:47 <joepie91> I know
 720 2011-03-28 06:59:52 <joepie91> which is why I'm playing devils advocate
 721 2011-03-28 06:59:56 <joepie91> and assuming the worst case scenario
 722 2011-03-28 06:59:57 <joepie91> :P
 723 2011-03-28 07:00:10 <joepie91> if the positive scenarios work out is completely irrelevant
 724 2011-03-28 07:00:16 <joepie91> it's about the disaster scenarios
 725 2011-03-28 07:00:16 <imdumb> lfm: yeah, but that ignores people propensity to resist change and fear of the unknown.
 726 2011-03-28 07:00:26 <imdumb> *people's
 727 2011-03-28 07:00:43 <dissipate> lfm, i disagree there. governments like their central banks. :O
 728 2011-03-28 07:00:50 <imdumb> exactly
 729 2011-03-28 07:00:53 doublec has joined
 730 2011-03-28 07:01:05 <lfm> well we could worry about that I guess but without evidence its just another theory
 731 2011-03-28 07:01:09 <Keefe> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power
 732 2011-03-28 07:01:18 <imdumb> more to the point, they like the /control/ their central banks give them.  Switching to BTC inhibits their control.
 733 2011-03-28 07:01:24 <joepie91> lfm: it doesn't matter that it's "just a theory"
 734 2011-03-28 07:01:27 <imdumb> lfm: hypothesis.
 735 2011-03-28 07:01:29 <joepie91> it is technically possible
 736 2011-03-28 07:01:32 <joepie91> and somewhat sensible
 737 2011-03-28 07:01:37 <joepie91> so it should be taken into account
 738 2011-03-28 07:01:47 <joepie91> regardless of whether it is believable
 739 2011-03-28 07:01:58 <lfm> yup, if it happens we give up
 740 2011-03-28 07:01:59 <dissipate> imdumb, no no, according to 'emanicpator' on the forums, we can work with governments and they will eventually love bitcoin. :P
 741 2011-03-28 07:02:15 Kicchiri has joined
 742 2011-03-28 07:02:15 ForceDestroyer has quit (Disconnected by services)
 743 2011-03-28 07:02:57 <dissipate> lfm, give up? not really. just time to design a more robust network
 744 2011-03-28 07:03:16 <imdumb> dissipate: that would be nice, but I fear unlikely.
 745 2011-03-28 07:03:25 <Kiba> dissipate: ya mean, tricked
 746 2011-03-28 07:04:16 <dissipate> imdumb, he knows people in high places in government. they are all nice guys. read about it here: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4960.0
 747 2011-03-28 07:04:22 <Kiba> guberment is not conductive to voluntary mindset
 748 2011-03-28 07:04:54 <Blitzboom> if you want to strengthen the bitcoin network, buy bitcoins
 749 2011-03-28 07:05:00 <Blitzboom> => more people will start mining
 750 2011-03-28 07:05:16 <imdumb> dissipate: alright, I'll give it a read.
 751 2011-03-28 07:05:38 <imdumb> Blitzboom: I think offering services that accept BTC is more impoartant.
 752 2011-03-28 07:05:58 <lfm> yup that too
 753 2011-03-28 07:06:02 <Blitzboom> sure
 754 2011-03-28 07:06:09 <dissipate> accepting bitcoins for services is the best way to grow bitcoin
 755 2011-03-28 07:06:10 <Blitzboom> buying would only help in the short term
 756 2011-03-28 07:06:27 <Blitzboom> dissipate: yes, but services which actually have demand
 757 2011-03-28 07:06:50 <Blitzboom> if you want to make this happen, contribute to the bounty: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4667.0
 758 2011-03-28 07:06:59 <imdumb> If that.  I would convert some captial into BTC right now if I had local places to spend them.  When I can buy food with BTC, I'll be very happy.  Supposedly there is a place relatively nearby, but it's far enough to be out of reach.
 759 2011-03-28 07:07:01 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 760 2011-03-28 07:07:31 <Blitzboom> bitcoin doesn’t have to replace fiat money immediately …
 761 2011-03-28 07:07:32 FellowTraveler has joined
 762 2011-03-28 07:07:38 <imdumb> no, certainly not.
 763 2011-03-28 07:07:39 <Blitzboom> it would be awesome already if we only just took over one field
 764 2011-03-28 07:07:42 <dissipate> Blitzboom, what shops have started accepting bitcoin based on what people in that thread have done?
 765 2011-03-28 07:07:58 <imdumb> dissipate: I believe they're listed in that thread.
 766 2011-03-28 07:07:59 <Blitzboom> dissipate: i didn’t pay a bounty yet, noone qualified
 767 2011-03-28 07:08:16 <imdumb> That was one of the earlier threads I read when I got involved with BTC.
 768 2011-03-28 07:08:20 <Blitzboom> but one guy reported he had success with http://privacyfoundation.de/
 769 2011-03-28 07:08:47 <Blitzboom> hopefully they’ll add it to donation/shop soon
 770 2011-03-28 07:09:09 <Blitzboom> i’d happily pay the bounty for them
 771 2011-03-28 07:09:58 <joepie91> ... the PR3 is a hard requirement? :|
 772 2011-03-28 07:10:03 curiositysquared has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 773 2011-03-28 07:10:15 <Blitzboom> not really
 774 2011-03-28 07:10:17 <joepie91> oh
 775 2011-03-28 07:10:19 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 776 2011-03-28 07:10:23 <joepie91> I might try to get Heihachi to accept BTC
 777 2011-03-28 07:10:36 <Blitzboom> i mean yes, it must have PR 3 or higher
 778 2011-03-28 07:10:36 <dissipate> Blitzboom, accepting bitcoins for donations is cool. but i think accepting it for goods and services is much better.
 779 2011-03-28 07:10:40 <Blitzboom> but it isn’t hard for a website
 780 2011-03-28 07:10:47 <joepie91> Heihachi has PR2 :|
 781 2011-03-28 07:10:51 <Blitzboom> dissipate: that’s why my bounty for shops is double as high
 782 2011-03-28 07:10:59 <Blitzboom> also, they sell cryptosticks, at least
 783 2011-03-28 07:11:13 <dissipate> Blitzboom, porn sites would probably be a really good target to get them to accept bitcoins.
 784 2011-03-28 07:11:22 <Blitzboom> joepie91: you might still get some donations if you post in the thread
 785 2011-03-28 07:11:30 <joepie91> ye, I was going to ask them anyway
 786 2011-03-28 07:11:31 <Blitzboom> (and announce that you will write to them)
 787 2011-03-28 07:11:31 gribble has joined
 788 2011-03-28 07:11:34 <joepie91> but ye, I will
 789 2011-03-28 07:11:44 <Blitzboom> dissipate: sexcam-sites, too
 790 2011-03-28 07:11:59 curiositysquared has joined
 791 2011-03-28 07:12:01 <dissipate> Blitzboom, yep, especially those.
 792 2011-03-28 07:12:05 Stellar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 793 2011-03-28 07:12:15 <dissipate> Blitzboom, anyone try to get a sexcam site to accept bitcoin?
 794 2011-03-28 07:12:21 <Blitzboom> yes
 795 2011-03-28 07:12:35 <joepie91> anyone tried cam4? :P
 796 2011-03-28 07:12:36 <dissipate> successfully?
 797 2011-03-28 07:12:36 <Blitzboom> someone wanted to contact cam4
 798 2011-03-28 07:12:41 <Blitzboom> dunno
 799 2011-03-28 07:13:15 nanotube has joined
 800 2011-03-28 07:13:24 <dissipate> come on people, there are markets out there that need to be tapped! drugs, porn, weapons. it doesn't matter, as long as bitcoin keeps on growin'! :O
 801 2011-03-28 07:13:56 <Blitzboom> i don’t know why noone is willing to jump on
 802 2011-03-28 07:14:01 <Blitzboom> except for silkroadmarket
 803 2011-03-28 07:14:13 <joepie91> cam4 would probably be willing
 804 2011-03-28 07:14:16 <joepie91> to use BTC
 805 2011-03-28 07:14:18 <dissipate> gotta compete with $100 bills
 806 2011-03-28 07:14:24 <joepie91> and they have quite some business going on there
 807 2011-03-28 07:14:30 <Blitzboom> joepie91: contact them too, they qualify in terms of page rank
 808 2011-03-28 07:14:38 <joepie91> heh
 809 2011-03-28 07:14:43 <joepie91> I just hope they respond
 810 2011-03-28 07:14:49 <joepie91> they never responded to my last email, lol
 811 2011-03-28 07:14:59 <Blitzboom> doesn’t really matter. every email signifies demand
 812 2011-03-28 07:15:06 <dissipate> what about livejasmin?
 813 2011-03-28 07:15:12 <dissipate> isn't that another major one?
 814 2011-03-28 07:15:14 <Blitzboom> it’s just "hey your site’s cool, but i’d like to pay with bitcoins"
 815 2011-03-28 07:15:35 <joepie91> true
 816 2011-03-28 07:15:37 <Blitzboom> dissipate: i have no clue, i don’t visit sexcam sites :D
 817 2011-03-28 07:15:40 Stellar has joined
 818 2011-03-28 07:15:44 Stellar has quit (Changing host)
 819 2011-03-28 07:15:44 Stellar has joined
 820 2011-03-28 07:15:50 <Blitzboom> but they have a page rank of 4, too
 821 2011-03-28 07:16:15 <Blitzboom> seriously, i don’t care where bitcoin starts. i assume it will HAVE to start there
 822 2011-03-28 07:16:29 <joepie91> actually its very likely to start there
 823 2011-03-28 07:16:32 <Blitzboom> because the risk’s the least for them and reward high
 824 2011-03-28 07:16:35 <joepie91> these industries are often early adopters
 825 2011-03-28 07:16:37 <joepie91> of new things
 826 2011-03-28 07:17:15 <Blitzboom> and i also don’t care about bitcoin getting an "underworld" image
 827 2011-03-28 07:17:35 <Blitzboom> business is business
 828 2011-03-28 07:17:38 <dissipate> neither do i. get it out there, i don't care where.
 829 2011-03-28 07:17:46 <joepie91> exactly
 830 2011-03-28 07:17:52 <Blitzboom> demand is demand
 831 2011-03-28 07:17:55 <joepie91> there's only one way to build demand
 832 2011-03-28 07:17:58 <joepie91> that is by building userbase
 833 2011-03-28 07:18:06 <joepie91> which is in turn done by getting underground services to accept it
 834 2011-03-28 07:18:13 <dissipate> joepie91, but we gotta work with government. they are our friends. :P
 835 2011-03-28 07:18:16 <Blitzboom> appreciate your thinking
 836 2011-03-28 07:18:19 <joepie91> ..
 837 2011-03-28 07:18:26 <joepie91> I am not particularly fond of governments in their current form.
 838 2011-03-28 07:18:28 <dissipate> joepie91, what user base?
 839 2011-03-28 07:18:28 <Blitzboom> dissipate: those political discussions on the forums are tiring
 840 2011-03-28 07:18:40 <joepie91> dissipate: a broader userbase for bitcoin
 841 2011-03-28 07:18:56 <joepie91> so that it is more attractive for other "regular" businesses to also accept bitcoin
 842 2011-03-28 07:19:15 <Blitzboom> i don’t understand why this shit is being discussed
 843 2011-03-28 07:19:15 <dissipate> joepie91, it's all about the shops. if no one accepts bitcoin for real services, it's just a hobby and speculation market.
 844 2011-03-28 07:19:33 <joepie91> yes, and how do you get businesses to accept bitcoin? by creating a demanding userbase.
 845 2011-03-28 07:19:42 <Blitzboom> henn and egg, joepie91
 846 2011-03-28 07:19:50 <dissipate> Blitzboom, because guys like 'emansipator' never saw something they didn't want regulated.
 847 2011-03-28 07:19:53 <Blitzboom> shops say "hey you can pay with bitcoin btw"
 848 2011-03-28 07:19:58 <joepie91> s/businesses/regular businesses/
 849 2011-03-28 07:20:08 <Blitzboom> customer looks this bitcoin thing up
 850 2011-03-28 07:20:14 <joepie91> for something like cam4 a large userbase is not important to accept bitcoin
 851 2011-03-28 07:20:15 <blablaa> joepie91, note that the word "demand" in economics is ambiguous
 852 2011-03-28 07:20:19 <joepie91> same for things like heihachi
 853 2011-03-28 07:20:24 <dissipate> joepie91, why would someone want bitcoin if they can't spend it? other than speculation.
 854 2011-03-28 07:20:26 <joepie91> for something like your supermarket, it is
 855 2011-03-28 07:20:35 <blablaa> joepie91, it can mean both what people want and what people are willing to pay
 856 2011-03-28 07:20:40 <joepie91> it's not completely henn and egg
 857 2011-03-28 07:20:41 <blablaa> joepie91, and these are NOT the same things.
 858 2011-03-28 07:20:56 <joepie91> I'm talking about demand as in "customers like to pay with bitcoin" here.
 859 2011-03-28 07:21:15 <Blitzboom> bitcoin users like to pay with bitcoin
 860 2011-03-28 07:21:21 <Blitzboom> but customers don’t even know it exists
 861 2011-03-28 07:21:38 <joepie91> exactly
 862 2011-03-28 07:21:40 <Blitzboom> and if they do, they think it’s monopoly money
 863 2011-03-28 07:21:43 <joepie91> so make people aware of that
 864 2011-03-28 07:21:43 <blablaa> joepie91, then u mean demand as in "what people want2
 865 2011-03-28 07:21:49 <joepie91> and make them undestand it's a real currency
 866 2011-03-28 07:21:51 <joepie91> and not just a plaything
 867 2011-03-28 07:21:54 <blablaa> joepie91, homeless people also want homes, but this doesn't mean they'll get homes
 868 2011-03-28 07:21:58 <joepie91> and they will think "hey but I like bitcoin"
 869 2011-03-28 07:22:12 <joepie91> blablaa: you are now arguing semantics in a discussion where they are completely irrelevant
 870 2011-03-28 07:22:13 <blablaa> joepie91, nobody needs to care for "demand" in that sense
 871 2011-03-28 07:22:17 <dissipate> online shop owners that are willing to receive a certain percentage of their income in bitcoin is the key.
 872 2011-03-28 07:22:25 <joepie91> ^
 873 2011-03-28 07:22:29 <Blitzboom> if you guys want to create some real demand, spread the word about silkroadmarket
 874 2011-03-28 07:22:35 <Blitzboom> i can provide you the tor-link if needed
 875 2011-03-28 07:22:36 <joepie91> i actually am doing just that, lol
 876 2011-03-28 07:22:56 <joepie91> squatters... don't have problems with something like that at all :)
 877 2011-03-28 07:23:05 <blablaa> joepie91, i think it is a plaything :P
 878 2011-03-28 07:23:07 <Blitzboom> silk road is awesome, but not enough
 879 2011-03-28 07:23:16 <joepie91> blablaa: it's a real currency though
 880 2011-03-28 07:23:18 <blablaa> joepie91, but i'm irrelevant because i've nothing to sell right now :)
 881 2011-03-28 07:23:20 <joepie91> it might be more playful than others
 882 2011-03-28 07:23:23 <joepie91> but it's still a real currency
 883 2011-03-28 07:23:25 <Blitzboom> they have 750 registered users now
 884 2011-03-28 07:23:30 <dissipate> that's how you break the chicken and egg problem. a shop owner likes the idea of bitcoin and allows customers to use bitcoin. they receive a relatively small revenue in bitcoin.
 885 2011-03-28 07:23:31 <Blitzboom> and 190 transactions done
 886 2011-03-28 07:23:51 <Blitzboom> dissipate: yeah, he could promote bitcoin by offering discounts
 887 2011-03-28 07:23:55 <Blitzboom> or making gifts
 888 2011-03-28 07:24:18 <blablaa> joepie91, it is a "real currency" if u define "real currency" suitably :)
 889 2011-03-28 07:24:22 <dissipate> it all starts off on the margin.
 890 2011-03-28 07:24:53 <Blitzboom> also, spread this thread
 891 2011-03-28 07:25:05 <Blitzboom> i mean, you get money for sending some emails
 892 2011-03-28 07:25:08 <joepie91> gah, can't find where I left my ukash codes
 893 2011-03-28 07:25:42 <blablaa> dissipate, u break he chicken and egg problem by assuming someone will break it, isn't it?
 894 2011-03-28 07:25:52 <blablaa> dissipate, a shop owner likes the idea of bitcoin..
 895 2011-03-28 07:26:15 <Blitzboom> it’s not a real problem
 896 2011-03-28 07:26:23 <Blitzboom> it’s supply and demand, basically
 897 2011-03-28 07:26:31 <Blitzboom> equilibrium will be reached sometime
 898 2011-03-28 07:27:09 <Blitzboom> there’s much more demand for paying in bitcoins than supply atm
 899 2011-03-28 07:27:12 <dissipate> blablaa, sorry don't understand the question.
 900 2011-03-28 07:27:33 <blablaa> Blitzboom, enough believers in a religion isn't enough to make it true
 901 2011-03-28 07:27:42 <Blitzboom> yes it is. see fiat money
 902 2011-03-28 07:27:44 TheAncientGoat has joined
 903 2011-03-28 07:27:45 <blablaa> (i'm referring to supply and demand and equilibrium)
 904 2011-03-28 07:27:58 <Blitzboom> why is that a religion? it’s facts
 905 2011-03-28 07:28:11 <Blitzboom> bitcoin’s a free market
 906 2011-03-28 07:28:34 <blablaa> fiat money is backed by reputation of governments..
 907 2011-03-28 07:28:44 <blablaa> however wrong it is, it is a real thing
 908 2011-03-28 07:28:45 <Blitzboom> bitcoin is backed by the reputation of individuals
 909 2011-03-28 07:29:02 <Blitzboom> and it’s trading for over 0.8$
 910 2011-03-28 07:29:03 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
 911 2011-03-28 07:29:04 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
 912 2011-03-28 07:29:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115399 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1528 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 73142.05994550
 913 2011-03-28 07:29:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115399 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1528 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 73142.05994550
 914 2011-03-28 07:29:14 <Blitzboom> it’s a success already
 915 2011-03-28 07:29:16 <blablaa> bitcoin is backed by reputation of bitcoin system, which is also a real thing..
 916 2011-03-28 07:29:23 <Blitzboom> we just need to put it into the next stage
 917 2011-03-28 07:29:31 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
 918 2011-03-28 07:29:32 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8721,"low":0.82,"vol":2878,"buy":0.82,"sell":0.838,"last":0.82}}
 919 2011-03-28 07:29:54 <blablaa> Blitzboom, still, no reason to believe that there is an equilibrium we're going toward
 920 2011-03-28 07:30:15 <Blitzboom> if the demand grows high enough, supply is certain to follow
 921 2011-03-28 07:30:24 <Blitzboom> and vice versa
 922 2011-03-28 07:30:37 * da2ce7 wonders how liquid the bitcoin trading is now.
 923 2011-03-28 07:30:57 <blablaa> da2ce7, how do u define liquidity?
 924 2011-03-28 07:30:59 <Blitzboom> not very liquid. check out mtgox
 925 2011-03-28 07:31:14 <blablaa> an idea is bid/ask spread..
 926 2011-03-28 07:31:21 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 927 2011-03-28 07:31:38 <da2ce7> Blitzboom, blablaa, compared to 3months a god.
 928 2011-03-28 07:31:41 <da2ce7> *ago.
 929 2011-03-28 07:31:59 <da2ce7> if the market is much more liquid now, that would push the prices down.
 930 2011-03-28 07:32:06 <da2ce7> (aka, more people are selling)
 931 2011-03-28 07:34:05 <blablaa> Blitzboom, if someone wants very much something, nothing special happens..
 932 2011-03-28 07:34:21 <blablaa> Blitzboom, unless he has enough things to sell to others
 933 2011-03-28 07:34:25 <Blitzboom> yes it does. you can actually do something about it
 934 2011-03-28 07:34:40 <Blitzboom> yeah, or you could spread the word, buy things yourself etc.
 935 2011-03-28 07:35:42 <blablaa> still, this someone needs something salable..
 936 2011-03-28 07:35:52 <blablaa> his work may be salable
 937 2011-03-28 07:36:25 <da2ce7> there isn't that much 'goods' in the bitcoin community that I want, so I hire developers for my projects.
 938 2011-03-28 07:36:44 * da2ce7 is all hired out.
 939 2011-03-28 07:37:12 * Kiba needs to be such a wussy in getting hired
 940 2011-03-28 07:37:22 <Kiba> stop being such a wussy
 941 2011-03-28 07:37:22 <blablaa> Blitzboom, my point is.. if u interpret "demand" just as a supply of money, then it is just another name for supply.. if instead u interpret it as what people want, then it is not directly relevant
 942 2011-03-28 07:37:53 <Blitzboom> uhm, what. supply of money is just the supply
 943 2011-03-28 07:38:07 <Blitzboom> i was referring to demand for bitcoin goods and supply for them
 944 2011-03-28 07:38:23 <blablaa> i'm saying that the word demand is ambiguous.
 945 2011-03-28 07:38:29 <blablaa> wait, i'll give a link..
 946 2011-03-28 07:40:02 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 947 2011-03-28 07:41:31 <Blitzboom> da2ce7: secret projects i guess?
 948 2011-03-28 07:41:37 <Blitzboom> for the time being
 949 2011-03-28 07:42:02 <blablaa> well, i can no longer find the link :|
 950 2011-03-28 07:42:05 * Kiba figured out the two bugs that compound his problem
 951 2011-03-28 07:42:07 <da2ce7> ah, yeah. Two secert projects underway atm
 952 2011-03-28 07:42:14 <Kiba> one, the name. Secondly, no score data.
 953 2011-03-28 07:42:18 <blablaa> Blitzboom, anyway, demand for bitcoin is just another name for supply of goods measured in bitcoins
 954 2011-03-28 07:42:22 <da2ce7> annother secert project in planing stage
 955 2011-03-28 07:42:29 <blablaa> Blitzboom, and i see no reason to give two names for the same thing
 956 2011-03-28 07:42:50 <Kiba> I have a serect project involve celluar automata and real time strategy games
 957 2011-03-28 07:43:06 <Kiba> in the planning and technology testing
 958 2011-03-28 07:43:11 <blablaa> Blitzboom, (unless by demand u mean something else.. in that case there may be a case for having another name)
 959 2011-03-28 07:43:13 <da2ce7> well i lie, there is annother project.
 960 2011-03-28 07:43:15 * Kiba even brought a headphone with a microphone 
 961 2011-03-28 07:43:18 <da2ce7> so 4 projects.
 962 2011-03-28 07:43:43 * Kiba plans to raise 1200 BTC from his project
 963 2011-03-28 07:43:55 <Kiba> which will be used mostly for self-sustaination
 964 2011-03-28 07:44:09 <da2ce7> if anyone wants to donate time or bitcoins to my BtcFn project, it will be most helpfull,  and good for the world.
 965 2011-03-28 07:44:16 <lfm> blabla the thing is bitcoin can also be considered a commodity bought and sold in other currencies whereby the "demand" for bitcoins makes sense
 966 2011-03-28 07:44:18 doublec has quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.2.0)
 967 2011-03-28 07:44:50 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2312.msg30678#msg30678
 968 2011-03-28 07:45:10 <blablaa> lfm, whereby others like to sell their goods for our bitcoins, sure
 969 2011-03-28 07:45:35 <midnightmagic> people are accepting bitcoins in strange places.
 970 2011-03-28 07:45:37 <blablaa> lfm, but this doesn't depends only on bitcoins.. it depends on bitcoins and how they're considered by potential sellers
 971 2011-03-28 07:45:43 <lfm> blabla no bitcoin IS the commodity in those markets
 972 2011-03-28 07:45:54 * da2ce7 only has a limited abmmount of bitcoins, cannot be too generious with them
 973 2011-03-28 07:45:58 <midnightmagic> i became an "awesomer" at the Awesome Shit Club by paying with bitcoins.
 974 2011-03-28 07:46:09 <da2ce7> *amount
 975 2011-03-28 07:46:20 <midnightmagic> equivalent of $50 CAD.
 976 2011-03-28 07:46:30 <da2ce7> ASCPWB!
 977 2011-03-28 07:46:31 <blablaa> lfm, so your proposition is.. bitcoin is a commodity.. and therefore there is supply and demand?
 978 2011-03-28 07:46:42 <blablaa> lfm, i think it is non sequitor
 979 2011-03-28 07:46:48 <da2ce7> I want a bitcoin clothing store.
 980 2011-03-28 07:46:55 <da2ce7> that uses hempt for the cloths.
 981 2011-03-28 07:46:58 <midnightmagic> pwb?
 982 2011-03-28 07:46:59 <da2ce7> :)
 983 2011-03-28 07:47:13 <blablaa> lfm, my wastes are a commodity too, but i can't buy things with them
 984 2011-03-28 07:47:20 <da2ce7> long lasting clothes, with cool logos on it.
 985 2011-03-28 07:47:23 <lfm> blabla its just a point of view
 986 2011-03-28 07:47:39 <midnightmagic> blablaa: you could if someone was willing to accept it in trade.
 987 2011-03-28 07:47:47 <blablaa> midnightmagic, right
 988 2011-03-28 07:47:50 <da2ce7> I want bitcoin business cards.
 989 2011-03-28 07:47:50 <da2ce7> :P
 990 2011-03-28 07:48:03 <Kiba> hmm
 991 2011-03-28 07:48:09 * Kiba thinks about doing a rap project
 992 2011-03-28 07:48:15 <blablaa> midnightmagic, but being a commodity isn't enough to make it acceptable
 993 2011-03-28 07:48:22 <Kiba> rap song project
 994 2011-03-28 07:48:23 <blablaa> midnightmagic, however "real" a commodity it is
 995 2011-03-28 07:48:42 <midnightmagic> right, so the cool factor, the crypto, the thought, the network, the people, are all supporting it as a currency by treating it as a currency. i hardly think your crap qualifies, and therefore your analogy is incorrect.
 996 2011-03-28 07:48:47 <da2ce7> what Bitcoin nees is for it to become more liquid.
 997 2011-03-28 07:48:59 <da2ce7> so people can easly get money in and out of bitcoin
 998 2011-03-28 07:49:12 <blablaa> midnightmagic, it isn't an analogy, just a counter-example for a proposition
 999 2011-03-28 07:49:17 <da2ce7> that is the main thing that will help bitcoin.
1000 2011-03-28 07:49:23 <lfm> blabla the reason it has value is almost irrelevant so long as it has value to someone somewhere it can be treated as a commodity market
1001 2011-03-28 07:49:26 <blablaa> midnightmagic, sorry if i've offended u :) don't take it as an analogy, because it is not.
1002 2011-03-28 07:49:37 <Blitzboom> da2ce7: well, exchanges are too much of a hassle atm
1003 2011-03-28 07:50:05 <blablaa> lfm, i agree
1004 2011-03-28 07:50:06 <Blitzboom> coinpal is a step in the right direction though
1005 2011-03-28 07:50:14 <midnightmagic> you used the word "too" and are therefore making a comparison. it is an analogy by definition; at the very least the point doesn't follow.
1006 2011-03-28 07:50:27 <midnightmagic> no offence taken.
1007 2011-03-28 07:50:39 <da2ce7> yeah, my projects involve making p2p extanges easy
1008 2011-03-28 07:50:46 <blablaa> midnightmagic, it is an analogy with the hypotetical object that is salabe because it is a commodity
1009 2011-03-28 07:50:47 <da2ce7> secure and reliable
1010 2011-03-28 07:50:50 <blablaa> midnightmagic, not with bitcoin :)
1011 2011-03-28 07:51:38 <da2ce7> what the bitcoin lapto nomad's will use :D :D
1012 2011-03-28 07:51:42 <da2ce7> *laptop
1013 2011-03-28 07:53:15 <da2ce7> hey dev's my post: https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4983.msg73837#msg73837 what do you think? rational?
1014 2011-03-28 07:53:30 <blablaa> midnightmagic, btw, i'm not optimist about bitcoin.. especially because they're finite.. being finite means that at some point their price will become somehow undeterminate, i think..
1015 2011-03-28 07:53:53 <blablaa> but on the other hand, being finite is essential for making them interesting, it seems..
1016 2011-03-28 07:54:09 <blablaa> *indeterminate
1017 2011-03-28 07:54:20 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1018 2011-03-28 07:54:20 <Blitzboom> why indeterminate?
1019 2011-03-28 07:54:33 <Blitzboom> zero demand equals zero value
1020 2011-03-28 07:55:02 sgornick has joined
1021 2011-03-28 07:55:41 <blablaa> well, those who have them will consider them valuable.. those who don't will consider them not valuable.. and this conflict becomes more and more sharp as we get close to when they stop being producible..
1022 2011-03-28 07:56:16 <blablaa> this theory would predict growing bid/ask spread.. if the opposite happens, then i'm wrong :)
1023 2011-03-28 07:56:49 <Blitzboom> interesting idea
1024 2011-03-28 07:57:13 <blablaa> we'll see heh :D
1025 2011-03-28 07:57:15 <Blitzboom> though you could’ve said the same thing about gold in its early days
1026 2011-03-28 07:57:36 <blablaa> well, no, gold is always producible
1027 2011-03-28 07:57:36 <lfm> gold at any time
1028 2011-03-28 07:57:41 <blablaa> and has always been
1029 2011-03-28 07:57:49 <Blitzboom> yes, but not unlimited
1030 2011-03-28 07:58:07 <Blitzboom> and the "production" rate drops
1031 2011-03-28 07:58:17 <blablaa> maybe the analogy could be made with precious arts..
1032 2011-03-28 07:58:25 <midnightmagic> and yet..  those that don't have them currently consider them valuable. a better argument would be to draw a line between have-nots who currently want ฿, and the point in time when that demand will dry up.
1033 2011-03-28 07:58:48 <blablaa> Blitzboom, production rate drops? where u've heard this?
1034 2011-03-28 07:59:18 <Blitzboom> hmm, doesn’t it?
1035 2011-03-28 07:59:19 <blablaa> Blitzboom, it fluctuates..
1036 2011-03-28 07:59:20 <lfm> seems like exchange markets are pretty efficient at establishing prices in situations like those
1037 2011-03-28 07:59:41 <blablaa> Blitzboom, http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_world_production.png
1038 2011-03-28 07:59:43 <Blitzboom> it’s a natural resource, same thing with oil
1039 2011-03-28 08:00:31 <lfm> ya people say we're gonna run outa oil but the reality is we just have diminishing returns
1040 2011-03-28 08:00:33 <blablaa> oil may be different because it is organic.
1041 2011-03-28 08:00:42 <blablaa> it is a fossil..
1042 2011-03-28 08:00:48 <Blitzboom> lfm: of course
1043 2011-03-28 08:01:07 <lfm> like gold. there is a finite amount in the ground
1044 2011-03-28 08:01:09 <Blitzboom> but it means that it’ll get infinitely more valuable
1045 2011-03-28 08:01:20 <Blitzboom> (assuming same demand)
1046 2011-03-28 08:01:47 <Blitzboom> i found this graph when i looked: http://www.kinross.com/media/209908/gold-supply.jpg
1047 2011-03-28 08:01:47 Bth8 has left ("Leaving")
1048 2011-03-28 08:01:58 <Blitzboom> but i don’t know about that source
1049 2011-03-28 08:02:22 <Blitzboom> seems similar anyway
1050 2011-03-28 08:02:23 <blablaa> Blitzboom, there isn't a single "peak"..
1051 2011-03-28 08:02:23 <lfm> well not infinite. it can increase in price greatly
1052 2011-03-28 08:02:41 <da2ce7> hmm bitcoin will work if we want it to work.
1053 2011-03-28 08:02:45 <Blitzboom> yes, because production depends on many factors i assume
1054 2011-03-28 08:02:50 <blablaa> Blitzboom, 1940 or 1970 also were "gold peaks".. as 2001
1055 2011-03-28 08:03:04 <da2ce7> bitcoin will fail if we don't want it to work.
1056 2011-03-28 08:03:26 <da2ce7> the choice is always up to the people who use it... do we want to trade bitcoin, or do we want to trade cash.
1057 2011-03-28 08:03:51 <lfm> trade cash for bitcoin
1058 2011-03-28 08:04:16 <blablaa> <midnightmagic> and yet..  those that don't have them currently consider them valuable. a better argument would be to draw a line between have-nots who currently want ฿, and the point in time when that demand will dry up.
1059 2011-03-28 08:04:47 <blablaa> midnightmagic, but u've to admit that the have-not should try to resist having to sell their stuff for bitcoins.
1060 2011-03-28 08:05:23 <da2ce7> either the have not's sell stuff for bitcoin, or bitcoin's are worthless
1061 2011-03-28 08:05:30 TheKid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1062 2011-03-28 08:05:38 <midnightmagic> not so; since the currency is relatively scarce, selling services and goods for BTC allows you to extract additional profit.
1063 2011-03-28 08:06:03 <blablaa> midnightmagic, chicken and egg..
1064 2011-03-28 08:06:17 <blablaa> midnightmagic, u've to assume u'll be able to make a profit by buying and selling btc
1065 2011-03-28 08:06:18 <midnightmagic> plus, don't neglect the haves' own trading amongst themselves. for example, assume I am a "have" but I would gladly trade by accepting bitcoins for anything i have to trade
1066 2011-03-28 08:06:25 <Blitzboom> fuck chicken and eggs, both are great :D
1067 2011-03-28 08:06:27 <midnightmagic> not so.
1068 2011-03-28 08:06:35 <blablaa> Blitzboom, hah :D
1069 2011-03-28 08:06:53 <midnightmagic> all you have to assume is that someone else will also take them in trade.
1070 2011-03-28 08:07:03 <blablaa> midnightmagic, the have btc and believe btc may continue to trade them among them, no doubt.
1071 2011-03-28 08:07:25 <midnightmagic> but that's not even necessary, since ฿ ownership is not precluded by the lack of ability to spend them.
1072 2011-03-28 08:07:47 <midnightmagic> ownership => desire to own
1073 2011-03-28 08:07:52 <nevezen> bitcoin is still the middleman when exchanging for real dollars though..
1074 2011-03-28 08:08:16 <midnightmagic> only when involving government-issued currency..
1075 2011-03-28 08:08:36 <nevezen> dont think that can be helped
1076 2011-03-28 08:08:48 <blablaa> midnightmagic, (i've not understood your last 2 sentences)
1077 2011-03-28 08:08:57 <midnightmagic> it can be by people who are willing to keep, rather than exchange, their earned bitcoins.
1078 2011-03-28 08:09:21 <midnightmagic> oh. sorry.
1079 2011-03-28 08:09:37 <blablaa> i agree with last.. people may be willing to keep them just for protest too
1080 2011-03-28 08:09:51 <blablaa> for example to signal that they don't agree with central bank policy
1081 2011-03-28 08:09:52 <nevezen> people will ultimately want to spend it on something tangible..
1082 2011-03-28 08:10:14 wolfspraul has joined
1083 2011-03-28 08:10:23 <midnightmagic> it would suck if mostly underground douchebags used ฿.. acquiring an unsavoury reputation would slow adoption considerably.
1084 2011-03-28 08:10:54 <midnightmagic> nevezen: do you consider services tangible?
1085 2011-03-28 08:11:38 <midnightmagic> that is partly why satoshi requested Wikileaks not accept bitcoins.
1086 2011-03-28 08:12:07 <midnightmagic> it's too soon yet, when some douche mystery miner can consume >50% of network hashrate.
1087 2011-03-28 08:12:08 <nevezen> what really? and where is the guy anyway? ;)
1088 2011-03-28 08:12:23 <imdumb> If I have  GPU miner running, say m0mchil's, connected to a pool, and turn on coin-generation in bitcoind, will the work done by bitcoind go towards the pool? I.e. will the two different miners be working together, or will I have a GPU mining away for a pool and a CPU chugging away towards solo mining?
1089 2011-03-28 08:13:00 <midnightmagic> imdumb: no, it won't. no, they won't. yes, GPU for pool, CPU solo mining.
1090 2011-03-28 08:13:09 <nevezen> I dont much care for that mystery miner drama..
1091 2011-03-28 08:13:10 <midnightmagic> don't CPU mine.
1092 2011-03-28 08:13:43 <Keefe> it can slow down the gpu miner a bit, and cpus use more power than it's worth
1093 2011-03-28 08:14:14 <imdumb> midnightmagic: It would if I specified the pool's address and u:p information to bitcond when I enabled minig, perhaps?
1094 2011-03-28 08:14:14 <midnightmagic> nevezen: for me, it was an annoying reminder that adoption is very slowly growing.
1095 2011-03-28 08:14:46 <nevezen> had gpu mining not been created, I think people would be satisfied for mining via cpu
1096 2011-03-28 08:14:53 <midnightmagic> imdumb: not as far as i can tell.
1097 2011-03-28 08:15:05 <[Tycho]> imdumb, CPU mining in official client is inefficient. Well, any CPU mining is inefficient now :)
1098 2011-03-28 08:15:08 <Keefe> nevezen: if it weren't for gpu mining, difficulty would be far lower
1099 2011-03-28 08:15:18 <nevezen> definitely
1100 2011-03-28 08:15:24 <imdumb> [Tycho]: of course.  I'm just wondering if it's possible to get them working together.
1101 2011-03-28 08:15:28 <imdumb> *currently
1102 2011-03-28 08:15:52 <Keefe> imdumb: you should check out a cpu miner like ufasoft's if you really want to use the cpu also
1103 2011-03-28 08:16:03 <midnightmagic> imdumb: if you really want to cpu mine, use "cpuminer" from..  jgarzik i think.
1104 2011-03-28 08:16:07 <Keefe> or i hear jgarzik's is good too
1105 2011-03-28 08:17:04 <imdumb> Well, I don't want to use a CPU miner.  I'm just wondering if it's currently possible to have them both chugging away for the same goal (e.g. pool).
1106 2011-03-28 08:17:34 <nevezen> dont think the bitcoin creator intended for mining to seriously get out of hand..
1107 2011-03-28 08:17:39 <nevezen> eg gpu mining
1108 2011-03-28 08:18:19 adlsaks has joined
1109 2011-03-28 08:18:24 <imdumb> nevezen: GPU mining was the first thing I thought of when I learned about how BTC worked.
1110 2011-03-28 08:18:41 <nevezen> me too
1111 2011-03-28 08:19:23 <imdumb> "Finally! A monetary excuse to read all the gpgpu.org PDFs I've downloaded!"
1112 2011-03-28 08:20:07 <nevezen> but when gpu mining was introduced, the difficulty level skyrocketed
1113 2011-03-28 08:20:29 <imdumb> I bet.  I bet those first gpu miners made a fortune.
1114 2011-03-28 08:20:30 unp1ng has joined
1115 2011-03-28 08:20:37 <imdumb> brb
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1118 2011-03-28 08:21:05 <nevezen> they made a fortune in btc
1119 2011-03-28 08:21:23 <nevezen> then eventually traded them for real cash
1120 2011-03-28 08:21:23 <lfm> btc was 6 cents then
1121 2011-03-28 08:21:24 <grbgout> Indeed, but if they save it then they should do well, no?
1122 2011-03-28 08:21:40 <u2time> mtgox down again?
1123 2011-03-28 08:21:51 <MagicalTux> u2time, fix your hosts file
1124 2011-03-28 08:21:55 <nevezen> I dont think so
1125 2011-03-28 08:22:03 <MagicalTux> now we have real dns
1126 2011-03-28 08:22:06 <u2time> lol
1127 2011-03-28 08:22:08 <MagicalTux> not theplanet.com crap dns
1128 2011-03-28 08:22:16 <u2time> nice to hear
1129 2011-03-28 08:22:18 <lfm> mtgox is fine here
1130 2011-03-28 08:22:30 <MagicalTux> just make sure to not have leftovers in your hosts file
1131 2011-03-28 08:22:34 <u2time> yep
1132 2011-03-28 08:22:40 <u2time> your old dns was broke
1133 2011-03-28 08:22:43 <grbgout> purpleposeidon: still here? 03:52:24 requested cloak, 04:12:40 <+kloeri> grbgout: cloaked
1134 2011-03-28 08:22:49 <MagicalTux> yep, old dns was theplanet.com
1135 2011-03-28 08:23:00 skeledrew1 has joined
1136 2011-03-28 08:23:13 <nevezen> with the influx of new users whom are constantly frustrated with the high difficulty level, I think bitcoins popularity just centers around people with "good" hardware..
1137 2011-03-28 08:23:25 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1138 2011-03-28 08:23:38 <grbgout> nevezen: true.
1139 2011-03-28 08:24:08 <nevezen> only popular for those with the power to compete witht the rising difficulty
1140 2011-03-28 08:24:20 <grbgout> Punching in the hash speeds I got with my CPU made me switch to gpu mining immediately.
1141 2011-03-28 08:24:25 <nevezen> cpu users are left out..
1142 2011-03-28 08:24:38 <grbgout> but that's what pools alleviate, no?
1143 2011-03-28 08:25:03 <grbgout> Even with my GPU I can't even begin to compete without a pool.  I only get about 21Mh/s
1144 2011-03-28 08:25:04 doublec has joined
1145 2011-03-28 08:25:05 <midnightmagic> i am certain satoshi was well aware of GPU when he released his first software.
1146 2011-03-28 08:25:06 <lfm> nevezen: well 5770 gpus are still quite viable and only about $100-$120
1147 2011-03-28 08:25:13 <grbgout> midnightmagic: i agree.
1148 2011-03-28 08:25:24 unp1ng has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1149 2011-03-28 08:25:34 <nevezen> even if you're adamant about copu mining within a pool, you're still getting close to nothing in return..
1150 2011-03-28 08:26:31 <midnightmagic> additionally, new users expecting to mine and get -- presto -- new bitcoins as though it were easy and cheap have been misled or have bizarre expectations.
1151 2011-03-28 08:26:57 <grbgout> what about a CPU only pool?  I wouldn't be surprised if we see one, especially if nefarious means are used to unwittingly turn people's machines into miners (javascript, html5, botnets, etc).
1152 2011-03-28 08:27:08 <nevezen> what I'm saying, mmagic, that might just be true had it not been for gpu mining :)
1153 2011-03-28 08:27:42 <midnightmagic> satoshi, the website, and everywhere else has always, always said that the best way to make bitcoins is participate in the economy with services and/or goods.
1154 2011-03-28 08:27:54 <grbgout> nevezen: yeah.  I would point out, though, that statement goes without saying.  I mean, that's obvious.
1155 2011-03-28 08:28:23 <midnightmagic> be a primary manufacturer of something of worth, and sell your stuff for bitcoins. you can charge enormous premiums and you usefully contribute to the stability and security of the currency.
1156 2011-03-28 08:28:49 <lfm> na, people would still be upset that an expensive quad is better than there cheap netbook
1157 2011-03-28 08:29:53 <nevezen> yes, for purposes other than mining :)
1158 2011-03-28 08:29:57 <grbgout> lfm: I think a lower percentage of people would be upset, though.  A smaller subset of netbook owners would feel that way.  I may be being optimistic, but I think in that case even laymen understand that netbooks are computationally weak.
1159 2011-03-28 08:30:01 <midnightmagic> so, the people who are turning away, disappointed, have neither 1) the capacity to set up economical mining, 2) the inclination and/or ability to be primary producers, or even 3) the willingness to buy bitcoins to use them. who wants people like that supporting a currency?!
1160 2011-03-28 08:30:56 * Kiba goes take a nap after a dev sprint
1161 2011-03-28 08:31:03 <grbgout> sleep well
1162 2011-03-28 08:31:15 <nevezen> you gotta' realize though, an average person starting out in gpu mining will probably have only one objective
1163 2011-03-28 08:31:20 <midnightmagic> heck, even setting up a retail storefront would allow you to eke out a ฿ profit, but it would be less.
1164 2011-03-28 08:31:32 <nevezen> and that is, $ return
1165 2011-03-28 08:31:58 <lfm> someone will be upset no matter what, maybe not the same people but the one who are upset can dominate a conversation
1166 2011-03-28 08:32:00 <nevezen> dont think anyone cares much about the technicalities
1167 2011-03-28 08:32:33 <grbgout> I'm an example of such a person, to a degree.
1168 2011-03-28 08:32:44 <midnightmagic> nevezen: yeah, contibuting to the huge high sell-heavy buyer's market on mtgox. :)
1169 2011-03-28 08:33:45 <nevezen> I'm just glad my 8800GT still was worth it
1170 2011-03-28 08:33:51 <grbgout> I believe I got involved on the 24th, and my primary objective /is/ to obtain bitcoins, but I am also concerned with the technicalities.  Indeed, my interest in getting btc is so that I can see what I can get with them in the markets.  I also so great potential with btc, and hope to contribute in other ways: software development, accepting btc for services rendered, etc.
1171 2011-03-28 08:34:08 <nevezen> it may not mine well bugt it certainly plays crysis 2 well :)
1172 2011-03-28 08:34:19 <grbgout> :)
1173 2011-03-28 08:34:40 <grbgout> s/also so/also see/
1174 2011-03-28 08:34:57 <nevezen> I couldnt believe it at first.. but I spent almost 8 hours playing it today..
1175 2011-03-28 08:35:13 <grbgout> hah.  I've never played.  FirstPS?
1176 2011-03-28 08:41:54 TD has joined
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1184 2011-03-28 08:56:33 <grbgout> Does the gribble bot only respond to commands sent to the channel?
1185 2011-03-28 08:56:46 <sipa> no
1186 2011-03-28 08:56:52 <sipa> oh wait, not sure
1187 2011-03-28 08:57:03 <grbgout> It responded to help in a query, but so far that's all.
1188 2011-03-28 08:57:09 <grbgout> Checking the sf page as we speak.
1189 2011-03-28 08:57:27 AAA_awright has joined
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1202 2011-03-28 09:07:35 blablaa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1211 2011-03-28 09:26:22 <lfm> grbgout: gribble also responds to /msg gribble
1212 2011-03-28 09:27:12 <Diablo-D3> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110325102008.htm
1213 2011-03-28 09:27:21 <grbgout> lfm: query == msg, but I didn't receive any replies from commands other than 'help' --- seeing that it just pinged out, however, might explain that.
1214 2011-03-28 09:27:37 <lfm> grbgout: gribble also responds to /msg gribble bc,stats
1215 2011-03-28 09:27:53 <grbgout> lfm: that was one of the things I tried :)
1216 2011-03-28 09:28:06 <BlueMatt> he responds fine to me
1217 2011-03-28 09:28:16 <grbgout> BlueMatt: yeah, he responded to me this time.
1218 2011-03-28 09:28:30 <lfm> grbgout: works for me, dont put in the ;;
1219 2011-03-28 09:29:12 <BlueMatt> works with the ;; too
1220 2011-03-28 09:29:13 docl has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1221 2011-03-28 09:29:13 <grbgout> lfm: yeah, I'm seeing that's what I tried for bc,stats.  But I also tried facts by itself, which didn't garner any response: this time, however, it reports it as an erroneous command.
1222 2011-03-28 09:29:26 docl has joined
1223 2011-03-28 09:29:27 <grbgout> like I said, the ping-out explains it.
1224 2011-03-28 09:30:15 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: very interesting, thanks for sharing.
1225 2011-03-28 09:33:53 docl has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1226 2011-03-28 09:34:05 alystair has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1227 2011-03-28 09:34:46 <grbgout> lfm: is gribble your bot?
1228 2011-03-28 09:35:43 <BlueMatt> its nanotube's
1229 2011-03-28 09:36:09 <grbgout> thanks
1230 2011-03-28 09:36:55 rli has joined
1231 2011-03-28 09:40:17 molecular has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1232 2011-03-28 09:41:13 ersi has joined
1233 2011-03-28 09:42:09 <ersi> ;;bc,gen 4906
1234 2011-03-28 09:42:12 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4906 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 0.0715377394346 BTC per day and 0.00298073914311 BTC per hour.
1235 2011-03-28 09:45:29 TippenEin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1236 2011-03-28 09:46:06 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1237 2011-03-28 09:46:28 <ersi> Guess it's pretty worthless solo-mining with that output
1238 2011-03-28 09:47:23 <sipa> quite
1239 2011-03-28 09:47:33 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 4906
1240 2011-03-28 09:47:34 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4906 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 1 year, 47 weeks, 4 days, 22 hours, 21 minutes, and 46 seconds
1241 2011-03-28 09:47:39 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 4906 7d
1242 2011-03-28 09:47:40 <gribble> 0.00996529758247
1243 2011-03-28 09:47:47 <sipa> 1% chance for a block, every week
1244 2011-03-28 09:50:35 <blablaa> a friend told me that btc will go around $1 within days.. is it true?
1245 2011-03-28 09:50:41 <blablaa> according to some technical analysis..
1246 2011-03-28 09:55:49 <grbgout> blablaa: could be.  The last time I checked, 1 btc was roughly worth $0.84
1247 2011-03-28 09:56:01 <grbgout> which was on friday or saturday.
1248 2011-03-28 09:56:53 <blablaa> grbgout, hmm i see..
1249 2011-03-28 09:56:54 <grbgout> is the information from bc,gen based on solo mining?
1250 2011-03-28 09:56:57 <blablaa> mgot something..
1251 2011-03-28 09:58:19 <grbgout> blablaa: mtgox?
1252 2011-03-28 09:58:36 <blablaa> oh yes
1253 2011-03-28 09:58:48 <grbgout> "#bitcoin-market (Live streaming quotes from MtGox and BCM)" from http://www.bitcoin.org/contact
1254 2011-03-28 10:09:33 noagendamarket has joined
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1256 2011-03-28 10:13:37 <ersi> Would pool-mining with 5-10kHps yeild anything?
1257 2011-03-28 10:13:51 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 10000
1258 2011-03-28 10:13:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 0.145816835374 BTC per day and 0.00607570147393 BTC per hour.
1259 2011-03-28 10:13:58 <sipa> ^^ that much
1260 2011-03-28 10:14:24 <grbgout> sipa: gribble's results are for pooled mining?  I thought solo...
1261 2011-03-28 10:14:44 <grbgout> Which pool does gribble represent?
1262 2011-03-28 10:15:13 <Blitzboom> he represents a perfect pool with 0% fee and 0% stale blocks
1263 2011-03-28 10:15:23 <Blitzboom> and 0% variance
1264 2011-03-28 10:15:44 <xelister> Chuck Norris administrates that
1265 2011-03-28 10:16:01 <grbgout> what do you mean by variance?
1266 2011-03-28 10:16:26 <Blitzboom> pool revenue varies
1267 2011-03-28 10:16:38 <Blitzboom> because luck is involved, too, when finding a block
1268 2011-03-28 10:16:45 <Blitzboom> your luck is just minimized
1269 2011-03-28 10:17:26 <grbgout> That's very interesting, then.  Based on my calculations, I'm earning 0.020428455437432946 per hour with the pool I'm using.  With the khash's I supplied to gribble, it suggests I should be seeing 0.01290235965 per hour.
1270 2011-03-28 10:18:06 <Blitzboom> hm
1271 2011-03-28 10:18:20 <sipa> variance doesn't matter
1272 2011-03-28 10:18:25 <grbgout> I'm probably doing my math wrong.
1273 2011-03-28 10:18:26 <sipa> stale blocks and fees do
1274 2011-03-28 10:18:35 <sipa> it's just your average gain from mining
1275 2011-03-28 10:18:47 <grbgout> oh, mine is also just an estimate, of course. Not actual, in my account.
1276 2011-03-28 10:19:06 <sipa> so subtract fees + a few % at most lost through stale blocks, and you get the result for pooled mining
1277 2011-03-28 10:21:32 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r10e39099c280 intersango/cron/depos.php: generates queries for depositing.
1278 2011-03-28 10:23:29 <grbgout> My actual btc per hour is 0.0091290354042719204, but this is because I upped my payout to 1btc rather than 0.01
1279 2011-03-28 10:23:54 <grbgout> meaning actual btc sent to my account, so this too is only an estimate :)
1280 2011-03-28 10:24:40 <grbgout> [Tycho]: does the 3% fee apply to the pay-per-share payment method as well, or only proportional?
1281 2011-03-28 10:24:48 gjs278 has joined
1282 2011-03-28 10:27:52 <sirius-m> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5052 Bitcoin.org server admins wanted
1283 2011-03-28 10:29:04 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1284 2011-03-28 10:33:38 <da2ce7> sirius-m good! the forum has felt a bit sluggish, not as snappy when we had 100 posts a day.
1285 2011-03-28 10:33:51 <da2ce7> how much bandwith do you go throogh each day?
1286 2011-03-28 10:35:05 <gjs278> has anyone here had any luck overclocking an asus 5870 to a higher voltage in linux? I tried using rbe but the gpu / voltage registers were empty for me so I either need a program that can overvolt past 1.2v in linux or a working bios with 1.35v set as the max
1287 2011-03-28 10:35:06 <grbgout> Is that a request for volunteers, or more a job-like posting?
1288 2011-03-28 10:37:59 <Diablo-D3> I have found a troll on the internet
1289 2011-03-28 10:38:03 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAzopSy-g0
1290 2011-03-28 10:39:22 <sirius-m> da2ce7: haven't checked in a while, but I think around 1-5 GB / day
1291 2011-03-28 10:39:51 <sirius-m> grbgout: volunteer work, bitcoin enthusiasm required :)
1292 2011-03-28 10:39:55 <grbgout> :)
1293 2011-03-28 10:40:31 <grbgout> what kind of maintenance work might you need?  Although I /should/ be an excellent server admin, I'm not.
1294 2011-03-28 10:41:23 <sirius-m> just making sure everything keeps running, keeping the software updated
1295 2011-03-28 10:41:24 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: that guy's laugh is awesome.
1296 2011-03-28 10:43:00 <grbgout> sirius-m: I barely do that with my machines >_>
1297 2011-03-28 10:43:15 <grbgout> I mean they run, but updating... ^_^
1298 2011-03-28 10:44:14 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: do you name him troll because the 'beat' (drum) begins before he ever touches anything?
1299 2011-03-28 10:44:39 <Diablo-D3> I call him a troll because its big setup
1300 2011-03-28 10:44:47 <Diablo-D3> he fronts for a real artist
1301 2011-03-28 10:44:55 <grbgout> gotchya
1302 2011-03-28 10:45:01 <grbgout> his dental is excellent though, hah.
1303 2011-03-28 10:45:47 <blablaa> gjs278, what will happen when coins can no longer be mined?
1304 2011-03-28 10:45:51 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/
1305 2011-03-28 10:46:04 <blablaa> gjs278, i think people working on production will get unemployed? :(
1306 2011-03-28 10:46:09 <gjs278> lol
1307 2011-03-28 10:46:11 <da2ce7> yay we have a Child Board!
1308 2011-03-28 10:46:31 <gjs278> I can't imagine my official job being bitcoin miner
1309 2011-03-28 10:46:36 <blablaa> hehe
1310 2011-03-28 10:46:43 <blablaa> but u like it :) it's hobby!
1311 2011-03-28 10:47:13 <da2ce7> but, we should have a 'chinese' sub forum also
1312 2011-03-28 10:47:49 <Blitzboom> hahaha, what the hell is child boards?
1313 2011-03-28 10:47:54 <Blitzboom> oh, nvm
1314 2011-03-28 10:48:19 <Blitzboom> we should seperate the marketplace in goods/services etc.
1315 2011-03-28 10:48:27 <Blitzboom> or buy/sell
1316 2011-03-28 10:48:42 <Blitzboom> and a job subforum
1317 2011-03-28 10:49:19 gjs278 has left ("Konversation terminated!")
1318 2011-03-28 10:49:26 <da2ce7> sirius-m while you are in the mood for making child board's there should be a 'mining pools' one also.
1319 2011-03-28 10:49:38 <ArtForz> ... why?
1320 2011-03-28 10:49:50 m00p has joined
1321 2011-03-28 10:50:39 <da2ce7> casue mining is a large topic, maybe moving the pool issues\announcements into a child board would clean it up a bit.
1322 2011-03-28 10:51:16 <ArtForz> afaict theres only like 6 pool threads in mining
1323 2011-03-28 10:52:17 <da2ce7> ArtForz, would make it easyer for people to find pool related stuff also
1324 2011-03-28 10:52:29 <ArtForz> well, thats true
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1337 2011-03-28 11:37:54 <joepie91> http://i.imgur.com/HttBQ.png
1338 2011-03-28 11:39:49 <BurtyB> heh
1339 2011-03-28 11:42:24 davex__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1340 2011-03-28 11:44:55 satamusic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1341 2011-03-28 11:48:54 gasteve has joined
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1343 2011-03-28 12:03:24 <xelister> hehe joepie91
1344 2011-03-28 12:03:37 <joepie91> :P
1345 2011-03-28 12:04:00 <xelister> "Australian law enforcement has flagged virtual worlds as a 'growing area of interest' in its fight against money laundering and cybercrime. Police are reportedly investigating unnamed virtual worlds, as well as online money transfer services such as e-gold and Hawala/Hundi."
1346 2011-03-28 12:05:37 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1347 2011-03-28 12:05:48 <xelister> It is possible to run Bitcoin through Freenet. There's even a project underway to do that.
1348 2011-03-28 12:05:57 <xelister>   by genjix (959457) writes: on Monday March 28, @06:34AM (#35636786)
1349 2011-03-28 12:05:58 <xelister>   It is possible to run Bitcoin through Freenet. There's even a project underway to do that.
1350 2011-03-28 12:06:00 <xelister> :D
1351 2011-03-28 12:06:02 <xelister> da2ce7: sen? =)
1352 2011-03-28 12:06:09 <xelister> seen
1353 2011-03-28 12:07:02 <da2ce7> yep. scary
1354 2011-03-28 12:07:13 <da2ce7> but we are way under the 10K limit
1355 2011-03-28 12:07:26 <Blitzboom> 10k what?
1356 2011-03-28 12:07:56 <da2ce7> don't need to report transactions under 10K AUD
1357 2011-03-28 12:08:58 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1358 2011-03-28 12:09:07 <xelister> da2ce7: in usfaggistan?
1359 2011-03-28 12:09:16 <xelister> wait, AUD
1360 2011-03-28 12:10:29 mmarker has joined
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1366 2011-03-28 12:20:51 <molecular> anyone else have problems accessing mtgox?
1367 2011-03-28 12:21:12 <lfm> dns change
1368 2011-03-28 12:21:22 <molecular> ah, that might explain it
1369 2011-03-28 12:22:04 dwdollar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1370 2011-03-28 12:22:05 <molecular> for some reason I can see http://mtgox.com now, but https://mtgox.com/users/login gives connection refused
1371 2011-03-28 12:22:51 <lfm> try www.
1372 2011-03-28 12:23:30 <molecular> nope. http works, but not https
1373 2011-03-28 12:23:39 <molecular> even with www
1374 2011-03-28 12:24:00 <lfm> ya you gotta flash cache somehow
1375 2011-03-28 12:24:39 <molecular> yeah, trying
1376 2011-03-28 12:25:10 <lfm> try 69.64.54.59
1377 2011-03-28 12:25:53 <molecular> https://69.64.54.59/users/login -> The requested URL /users/login was not found on this server.
1378 2011-03-28 12:26:31 <molecular> www.mtgox.com resolved to 69.64.54.59
1379 2011-03-28 12:27:12 <lfm> try 69.64.54.59
1380 2011-03-28 12:27:27 <lfm> browser cache?
1381 2011-03-28 12:27:29 * molecular is an idiot
1382 2011-03-28 12:27:36 * molecular removes mtgox.com from hosts file
1383 2011-03-28 12:27:45 <molecular> I put that in there couple weeks ago
1384 2011-03-28 12:27:53 <molecular> sorry to have bugged around
1385 2011-03-28 12:27:53 <lfm> a ha
1386 2011-03-28 12:28:32 weissbier has joined
1387 2011-03-28 12:29:45 <weissbier> hi
1388 2011-03-28 12:29:49 <ersi> lol
1389 2011-03-28 12:29:52 genjix has joined
1390 2011-03-28 12:29:57 <genjix> da2ce7: hey
1391 2011-03-28 12:30:07 <ersi> lfm: Well, using HTTP or HTTPS doesn't have anything with DNS. It's just different ports.
1392 2011-03-28 12:30:08 <da2ce7> gday
1393 2011-03-28 12:30:15 <weissbier> sirius-m, you're here?
1394 2011-03-28 12:30:20 <genjix> did you refresh your profile da2ce7 ?
1395 2011-03-28 12:30:37 <da2ce7> yeah... many times.
1396 2011-03-28 12:30:44 <genjix> ok
1397 2011-03-28 12:30:51 <da2ce7> You have 0 BTC.
1398 2011-03-28 12:31:55 <sirius-m> weissbier: yes
1399 2011-03-28 12:32:04 <weissbier> can i query you? :D
1400 2011-03-28 12:32:37 weissbier has left ()
1401 2011-03-28 12:32:41 <genjix> ok, because it shows up under your balance but hasn't been added to the authorisation queue yet
1402 2011-03-28 12:32:42 weissbier has joined
1403 2011-03-28 12:32:49 <genjix> i will check this out.
1404 2011-03-28 12:33:08 <weissbier> it's regarding helping out… i can provide little bit hosting "power"
1405 2011-03-28 12:33:12 <da2ce7> cool
1406 2011-03-28 12:33:23 dmnd_ has joined
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1409 2011-03-28 12:33:58 <genjix> sorry da2ce7 :p but im a little paranoid so i built in several layers of security checks
1410 2011-03-28 12:34:21 <da2ce7> ok, that is fine.
1411 2011-03-28 12:34:22 <genjix> and it's stopped at one.
1412 2011-03-28 12:34:43 <da2ce7> I just feel silly that I tested such a large ammount of BTC first.
1413 2011-03-28 12:35:03 <genjix> nah it's fine.
1414 2011-03-28 12:35:22 dmnd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1418 2011-03-28 12:39:27 <mesh> I'm having problems compiling bitcoin: http://paste.ubuntu.com/586439/, is there someone that knows the problem?
1419 2011-03-28 12:39:41 dwdollar has joined
1420 2011-03-28 12:41:04 <sirius-m> weissbier: of course
1421 2011-03-28 12:41:09 <lfm> mesh what version of wxwidgets do you have?
1422 2011-03-28 12:42:04 <mesh> lfm: 2.8
1423 2011-03-28 12:42:25 <lfm> check the build file for the correct version
1424 2011-03-28 12:43:11 <mesh> lfm: ok, thanks
1425 2011-03-28 12:43:50 <lfm> Don't try 2.8, it won't work.
1426 2011-03-28 12:43:53 <mmarker> Ok, I think I fixed the cpuminer's yasm check. So it should work for everyone...
1427 2011-03-28 12:54:14 <BurtyB> genjix re britcoin do you need to login before it gives an idea of rates?
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1432 2011-03-28 12:56:44 <genjix> da2ce7: try now.
1433 2011-03-28 12:56:55 <genjix> BurtyB: no but there's no orders yet since it was opened yesterday.
1434 2011-03-28 12:57:52 <BurtyB> genjix ah ok
1435 2011-03-28 12:59:20 TD_ has joined
1436 2011-03-28 12:59:37 <genjix> da2ce7: should show up under your profile when you refresh now.
1437 2011-03-28 12:59:53 <da2ce7> yep I have the BTC in my account now :)
1438 2011-03-28 12:59:55 <da2ce7> good work,.
1439 2011-03-28 13:00:06 ApertureScience has quit (Quit: Linux: because a PC is a terrible thing to waste)
1440 2011-03-28 13:00:29 <genjix> ok i will authorise that for you :p
1441 2011-03-28 13:01:31 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r10e9623ec3e4 intersango/util.php: dumb undocumented GMP behaviour! dumb!
1442 2011-03-28 13:01:44 <genjix> heh
1443 2011-03-28 13:04:00 mmarker has quit (Quit: Yo ho, yo ho, off to fetch crud I go!)
1444 2011-03-28 13:04:29 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1447 2011-03-28 13:11:19 <grbgout> Is there a way to see how much money each address of an account has accrued without querying the transactions list?
1448 2011-03-28 13:12:15 <grbgout> by money I meant BTC.
1449 2011-03-28 13:12:39 <Blitzboom> https://twitter.com/#!/brucewagner/status/52347389767467008
1450 2011-03-28 13:12:42 <Blitzboom> time to BUY!
1451 2011-03-28 13:13:03 ApertureScience has joined
1452 2011-03-28 13:13:11 * grbgout blinks
1453 2011-03-28 13:13:12 <doublec> grbgout: use the rpc function getreceivedbyaddress
1454 2011-03-28 13:13:20 <grbgout> doublec: thanks.
1455 2011-03-28 13:13:22 <grbgout> welcome, ApertureScience.
1456 2011-03-28 13:13:29 <ApertureScience> ty
1457 2011-03-28 13:13:31 <doublec> grbgout: or getreceivedbyaccount
1458 2011-03-28 13:13:57 <grbgout> doublec: thanks, it seems I completely glazed over those in the help output.
1459 2011-03-28 13:14:28 <grbgout> Blitzboom: alright, who is brucewagner to bitcoin?
1460 2011-03-28 13:14:41 <Kicchiri> Just wondering, is someone offering bitcoin deals against disk space/participating in some kind of distributed storage system?
1461 2011-03-28 13:15:00 <Kicchiri> On second thought, wrong chan probably
1462 2011-03-28 13:15:00 <Blitzboom> i don’t know, who are you to bitcoin?
1463 2011-03-28 13:15:14 <grbgout> Blitzboom: currently I merely a lowly miner.
1464 2011-03-28 13:15:19 weissbier has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1465 2011-03-28 13:15:25 <grbgout> *I'm
1466 2011-03-28 13:15:26 <doublec> grbgout: he's a bitcoin user who seems to do a lot of marketing
1467 2011-03-28 13:16:11 <grbgout> doublec: ah.  I was just looking at his wikipedia entry expecting to see some kind of affiliation with bitcoin, since I didn't I thought I'd ask.
1468 2011-03-28 13:16:31 <Blitzboom> that’s probably not him on wiki
1469 2011-03-28 13:17:21 <grbgout> I wonder which magazine....
1470 2011-03-28 13:17:42 Weishaupt has quit (Disconnected by services)
1471 2011-03-28 13:18:18 <doublec> grbgout: I believe he ran  bitcoinme.com
1472 2011-03-28 13:18:52 <grbgout> ah.  I wasn't too impressed by the brief glance I took at their "gentle introduction" when I first found out about btc.
1473 2011-03-28 13:20:56 philth has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1474 2011-03-28 13:21:03 <doublec> yeah I think weusecoins.com is a better first-timer introduction now
1475 2011-03-28 13:21:19 <Blitzboom> definitely
1476 2011-03-28 13:22:21 <grbgout> I thought bitcoin.org did a good job.  I found the initial blurb intriguing, and the video informative.  Enough so to research it further, anyway.
1477 2011-03-28 13:30:33 <eps1> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet
1478 2011-03-28 13:30:40 <eps1> is that link supposed to be broken?
1479 2011-03-28 13:31:33 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r37e8abc48393 intersango/cron/verif.sql: verify payments into the system.
1480 2011-03-28 13:31:35 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r3c2d8d1870ee intersango/cron/verif.sql: holding period is currently 1 day.
1481 2011-03-28 13:31:38 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r5a3beff92d55 intersango/cron/verif.sql: BUGFIX: authorising payments should update purse amount.
1482 2011-03-28 13:32:21 <UukGoblin> eps1, works for me
1483 2011-03-28 13:32:24 <grbgout> eps1: me too
1484 2011-03-28 13:33:43 Teslah has joined
1485 2011-03-28 13:34:50 <eps1> ok, it is working now, just a tempoary thing then
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1521 2011-03-28 14:27:03 <manifold_> MagicalTux: are you there?
1522 2011-03-28 14:31:29 puddinpop has joined
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1532 2011-03-28 14:48:12 <joepie91> does anyone know if the guy running Privacyshark is on here?
1533 2011-03-28 14:48:50 <MagicalTux> manifold_: somewhat
1534 2011-03-28 14:49:16 <manifold_> MagicalTux: hi
1535 2011-03-28 14:49:20 <MagicalTux> hi
1536 2011-03-28 14:49:54 <manifold_> I'm thinking of buying bitcoins. But I have only euros.
1537 2011-03-28 14:51:31 <manifold_> you are the admin of mtgox, aren't you?
1538 2011-03-28 14:51:38 <MagicalTux> yep
1539 2011-03-28 14:51:50 <MagicalTux> you can send euros on mtgox via bank transfer, it's free
1540 2011-03-28 14:52:04 <manifold_> and do you caonvert it in $?
1541 2011-03-28 14:52:09 <manifold_> and do you convert it in $?
1542 2011-03-28 14:52:54 <gasteve> what is the easiest/cheapest way of getting $ into mtgox?
1543 2011-03-28 14:53:20 <nanotube> gasteve: depending on amount - probably to buy goxusd on otc. :)
1544 2011-03-28 14:54:15 <MagicalTux> manifold_: it'll be converted to $ on daily exchange rate
1545 2011-03-28 14:54:26 <MagicalTux> anyway gotta sleep, late here
1546 2011-03-28 14:54:46 <manifold_> ok
1547 2011-03-28 14:54:49 <manifold_> thanks!
1548 2011-03-28 14:54:52 <manifold_> great help
1549 2011-03-28 14:55:01 <manifold_> I will contact you per email. ok?
1550 2011-03-28 14:55:34 dishwara1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1551 2011-03-28 14:55:46 <MagicalTux> ok
1552 2011-03-28 14:55:54 <manifold_> thanks
1553 2011-03-28 14:55:55 <manifold_> bye
1554 2011-03-28 14:56:08 FellowTraveler has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1555 2011-03-28 14:56:28 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r0533e636c886 intersango/scr/summa.php: check for mismatch between deposits and actual balances.
1556 2011-03-28 14:56:29 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r99c7d65e53d2 intersango/cron/process_orders.php: fix GMP problem behaviour.
1557 2011-03-28 14:56:32 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r5988fe65713c intersango/ (cron/process_orders.php util.php): fixed missing function.
1558 2011-03-28 14:56:34 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rc3e3ce9f886b intersango/ (cron/process_orders.php util.php): moved missing function back out.
1559 2011-03-28 14:57:41 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|MagicalTux: May I please have ops again? I Lost it in le split
1560 2011-03-28 15:05:39 DrQ has joined
1561 2011-03-28 15:06:41 <Kicchiri> Is there a GPU miner that can be throttled? To avoid hot GPU and laggy screen.
1562 2011-03-28 15:07:21 <Kicchiri> I'm currently giving it less CPU cycles to make it laggy, but that's a ... stupid hack
1563 2011-03-28 15:10:19 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1564 2011-03-28 15:10:33 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1565 2011-03-28 15:11:09 <BurtyB> Kicchiri prob depends which miner in poclbm -f might help
1566 2011-03-28 15:11:24 tcatm has joined
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1569 2011-03-28 15:11:28 Lartza has joined
1570 2011-03-28 15:13:52 <genjix> 1 BTC is worth 9882176486.6421 GBP
1571 2011-03-28 15:13:59 <genjix> buy now!
1572 2011-03-28 15:14:00 <genjix> :D
1573 2011-03-28 15:14:35 <weissbier> lol
1574 2011-03-28 15:14:43 <Blitzboom> >Stable levels of inflation equal stable levels of growth. The problem with the global economy is that we've had too little inflation over the past few years, which led to the growth of a debt economy.
1575 2011-03-28 15:14:46 <Blitzboom> wow
1576 2011-03-28 15:15:16 glassresistor has joined
1577 2011-03-28 15:16:31 <Kicchiri> what does -f do in poclbm? I can't find any kind of manual :/
1578 2011-03-28 15:16:40 Necr0s has joined
1579 2011-03-28 15:17:15 <BurtyB> Kicchiri running it with -h should give you help
1580 2011-03-28 15:20:53 MartianW has joined
1581 2011-03-28 15:23:24 manifold_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1582 2011-03-28 15:24:19 reubgr has joined
1583 2011-03-28 15:24:26 <reubgr> is bitcoincharts down?
1584 2011-03-28 15:24:41 <Blitzboom> yes
1585 2011-03-28 15:24:52 MartianW has left ()
1586 2011-03-28 15:25:19 <reubgr> any news on why?
1587 2011-03-28 15:25:43 <Blitzboom> not that i know of
1588 2011-03-28 15:29:14 <alias4201> he's retiring he said
1589 2011-03-28 15:29:18 <alias4201> taking the sites down
1590 2011-03-28 15:29:32 <alias4201> packing it in
1591 2011-03-28 15:29:38 <alias4201> doesn't believe in bitcoins anymore
1592 2011-03-28 15:29:51 <alias4201> traded em all for alpaca socks
1593 2011-03-28 15:30:04 <noot> lol
1594 2011-03-28 15:30:06 <Blitzboom> haha
1595 2011-03-28 15:30:12 <Blitzboom> hell yeah, alpaca socks
1596 2011-03-28 15:33:31 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1597 2011-03-28 15:34:15 <grbgout> Who would have thought alpacas would create such a high demand for socks.  Do they even wear shoes?
1598 2011-03-28 15:35:58 <alias4201> yes
1599 2011-03-28 15:36:02 <alias4201> they wear alpaca shoes
1600 2011-03-28 15:36:11 <alias4201> made out of other alpacas
1601 2011-03-28 15:36:17 <alias4201> it's quite morbid actually
1602 2011-03-28 15:36:17 <grbgout> Drat, and here I thought I was on the cusp of the next great market.
1603 2011-03-28 15:37:07 tcatm has joined
1604 2011-03-28 15:40:00 <grbgout> BTC:USD seems to have dropped over the past few days.
1605 2011-03-28 15:40:52 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1606 2011-03-28 15:40:55 <reubgr> quick question: does anyone have a way to quantify the amount of computing power currently in the mining network in a way that would make sense to a layperson?
1607 2011-03-28 15:41:57 knotwork has joined
1608 2011-03-28 15:41:57 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
1609 2011-03-28 15:41:58 knotwork has joined
1610 2011-03-28 15:42:06 Daviey has quit (Excess Flood)
1611 2011-03-28 15:42:21 mikejs has joined
1612 2011-03-28 15:42:51 <grbgout> reubgr: not I.  The bot gribble might, though.
1613 2011-03-28 15:43:17 <grbgout> reubgr: from what I understand, the "difficulty" is a measure of that.
1614 2011-03-28 15:43:41 <reubgr> I think the current hashrate -- .5 Thashes/sec is a good measure
1615 2011-03-28 15:43:43 <grbgout> that is, the more computing power in the network, the higher the difficulty, which automatically adjusts as the computing power increases.
1616 2011-03-28 15:43:52 <reubgr> but it's hard to make a layperson understand that
1617 2011-03-28 15:44:08 <grbgout> reubgr: where did you discover that (the Thashs/s)?
1618 2011-03-28 15:44:09 <sipa> 500 billion hashes per second
1619 2011-03-28 15:44:13 <reubgr> right. I'm trying to compare the computing power in bitcoin to other networks
1620 2011-03-28 15:44:22 <sipa> grbgout: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ :)
1621 2011-03-28 15:44:29 <reubgr> grbgout: it was on bitcoincharts before it went down
1622 2011-03-28 15:44:39 <grbgout> sipa: that's convenient :)
1623 2011-03-28 15:48:18 <reubgr> what do you guys think of the following analysis: GPUs are running around 100 MH/s, right? At a network speed of 0.5 TH/s, this means there are about 5 million computers in the network, assuming they are all running a single GPU at 1Mh/s
1624 2011-03-28 15:48:53 <sipa> ?
1625 2011-03-28 15:49:06 <grbgout> reubgr: contemplations for the BTC video?
1626 2011-03-28 15:49:07 <sipa> most of the network power probably comes from 5970's, doing over >600MH/s each
1627 2011-03-28 15:49:35 <reubgr> grbgout: no, I'm writing an academic paper
1628 2011-03-28 15:49:37 <sipa> so that would be around 1000 5970's
1629 2011-03-28 15:49:39 <grbgout> sipa: I think he's trying to choose convenient values for an explanation to a layperson.
1630 2011-03-28 15:49:52 <grbgout> reubgr: ah, cool.  For what school, if you don't mind my asking?
1631 2011-03-28 15:49:54 <reubgr> yes, but that is still useful
1632 2011-03-28 15:50:21 <reubgr> it's still about a million computers, right, even with 5970s?
1633 2011-03-28 15:50:30 <sipa> no, 1000
1634 2011-03-28 15:50:55 <sipa> and most of those systems have more than one 5970 each, so it's even less
1635 2011-03-28 15:51:21 <grbgout> Interesting.
1636 2011-03-28 15:51:26 <sipa> it's really just a few hundred nodes doing most of the calculations, but if you'd do it with average computers, it'd be around a hundred thousand
1637 2011-03-28 15:51:42 <reubgr> yep, you're right
1638 2011-03-28 15:52:07 <reubgr> how much does a 5970 cost?
1639 2011-03-28 15:52:16 <grbgout> reubgr: one sec, I'm already on newegg
1640 2011-03-28 15:52:18 <sipa> $600 ?
1641 2011-03-28 15:52:39 <grbgout> n/m, newegg only offers one, and it's some specialty garbage
1642 2011-03-28 15:52:47 Daviey has joined
1643 2011-03-28 15:52:58 devon_hillard has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1644 2011-03-28 15:52:59 <grbgout> I would monitor ebay for some realistic values.
1645 2011-03-28 15:53:14 <reubgr> ok, assuming $600, it will cost ~ $600k to basically take control of the network
1646 2011-03-28 15:53:40 Daviey has quit (Excess Flood)
1647 2011-03-28 15:53:41 <sipa> 400 euros in a shop near here
1648 2011-03-28 15:53:55 <reubgr> so for less than a million dollars, someone, such as a government agency, could essentially stop all bitcoin transactions from settling. Yes?
1649 2011-03-28 15:54:06 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
1650 2011-03-28 15:54:11 <cosurgi> reubgr: every person has a different hashpower. It's more like an exponeential distribution. ArtForz has 5% of theee network, there are maybe 2 or 3 more persons like him. Then there are tens of people who have 0.5% of network (that includes me), then there are hundress of people who have 0.05% of network. That's roughly speaking.
1651 2011-03-28 15:54:13 <sipa> reubgr: not control, just allow some attacks
1652 2011-03-28 15:54:16 <grbgout> reubgr: don't forget this, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power
1653 2011-03-28 15:54:28 <sipa> yes, read that
1654 2011-03-28 15:54:42 <sipa> it's still limited what you can do with >50% of the network
1655 2011-03-28 15:55:16 <reubgr> right,  but the following means that someone with majority control can prevent txns from settling: "Prevent some or all transactions from gaining any confirmations"
1656 2011-03-28 15:55:31 <grbgout> no
1657 2011-03-28 15:55:35 <grbgout> only theirs
1658 2011-03-28 15:55:38 <grbgout> please read that page.
1659 2011-03-28 15:55:55 <grbgout> "the attacker /can't/: ..."
1660 2011-03-28 15:56:11 <reubgr> can't: "Prevent transactions from being sent at all (they'll show as 0/unconfirmed)"
1661 2011-03-28 15:56:23 <reubgr> but an attacker can prevent those transactions from being confirmed
1662 2011-03-28 15:56:35 <grbgout> settling, I see what you mean ... sorry glazed over that part.
1663 2011-03-28 15:57:01 <reubgr> most users probably won't be comfortable trusting transactions at 0 confirmations
1664 2011-03-28 15:57:22 <reubgr> the current client requires 6 confirmations, I think, before considering the transactions as settled
1665 2011-03-28 15:57:49 <reubgr> so, what do you think about my point above: that for less than a million dollars, an entity could prevent all transctions from settling
1666 2011-03-28 15:59:08 <grbgout> I think another entity, who has a vested interest, could do exactly the same, but in the /interest/ of btc.  I think the sheer volume of criminal interest that could benefit from btc would out-weigh the influence a government has: but that raises issues of its own ;)
1667 2011-03-28 15:59:49 TD_ has joined
1668 2011-03-28 15:59:51 <manveru> what do you gain from that?
1669 2011-03-28 16:00:07 <reubgr> manveru: are you asking me or grbgout?
1670 2011-03-28 16:00:17 <grbgout> manveru: indeed, could you elaborate please?
1671 2011-03-28 16:00:46 Daviey has joined
1672 2011-03-28 16:01:04 <manveru> well, i'm just thinking what you can gain from investing that much to disrupt normal flow
1673 2011-03-28 16:01:20 <manveru> just to start a computing-power war?
1674 2011-03-28 16:01:32 <grbgout> manveru: to protect a nation's currency.
1675 2011-03-28 16:01:55 <grbgout> governments like their central banks and control of money.
1676 2011-03-28 16:02:16 <manveru> they could just as well classify GPUs as national security risk
1677 2011-03-28 16:02:26 <nevezen> they once did :)
1678 2011-03-28 16:02:28 <reubgr> manveru: several answers. (1) govt wants to disrupt bitcoin for any number of reasons (used for money laundering, illegal transcations, etc...); (2) hackers who blackmails someone who relies on bitcoin for business; (3) any entity with future liabilities in bitcoin (e.g., someone who shorts bitcoins)
1679 2011-03-28 16:02:46 Daviey has quit (Excess Flood)
1680 2011-03-28 16:02:49 <nevezen> when ps2's were banned from being sold to iraq
1681 2011-03-28 16:02:56 <nevezen> how silly is that? :P
1682 2011-03-28 16:02:59 <manveru> heh
1683 2011-03-28 16:03:10 <manveru> well, afaik the US still restricts exporting of cryptography, no?
1684 2011-03-28 16:04:05 <nevezen> I think it's had for the US to restrict exports of cryptography
1685 2011-03-28 16:04:09 <nevezen> hard-
1686 2011-03-28 16:04:10 <grbgout> reubgr: could you explain what "shorting" means?  I've heard the term, but never bothered to learn it since I've never really dabbled in stocks.
1687 2011-03-28 16:04:16 <Blitzboom> i actually want criminals in my bitcoin
1688 2011-03-28 16:04:25 <Blitzboom> guys, you are very welcome
1689 2011-03-28 16:04:29 <grbgout> manveru: yes, still does --- so far as I know.
1690 2011-03-28 16:05:01 SomeAnonymousGuy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1691 2011-03-28 16:05:02 <reubgr> I have to run now, but it generally means selling bitcoins to you now when I don't actually own them. I end up borrowing them from someone and promise to pay back the borrower or to purchase bitcoins in the future to pay him back
1692 2011-03-28 16:05:20 <reubgr> thanks for allowing me to bounce ideas off you guys
1693 2011-03-28 16:05:23 <reubgr> ciao for now
1694 2011-03-28 16:05:25 <grbgout> reubgr: what about in non-bitcoin terms?  like selling a stock short?
1695 2011-03-28 16:05:29 <grbgout> aw, adios.
1696 2011-03-28 16:05:29 robotarmy has joined
1697 2011-03-28 16:05:42 * manveru is pondering opening a bitcoin bank :)
1698 2011-03-28 16:05:44 <nevezen> couldn't you disrupt bitcoin's network by not allowing transactions to go through?
1699 2011-03-28 16:06:04 <grbgout> nevezen: that's what reubgr is proposing/asking.
1700 2011-03-28 16:06:06 <reubgr> nevezen: yes, that's the point
1701 2011-03-28 16:06:12 <reubgr> re: shorting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_(finance)
1702 2011-03-28 16:06:18 <grbgout> nevezen: welcome to the conversation ;) j/k, j/k
1703 2011-03-28 16:06:20 <nevezen> I mean by killing the bootstrap
1704 2011-03-28 16:06:32 <reubgr> the IRC bootstrap?
1705 2011-03-28 16:06:36 <nevezen> sorta'.
1706 2011-03-28 16:06:47 <reubgr> very difficult to do and also woudln't work b/c clients remember previous clients they connect with
1707 2011-03-28 16:06:51 <nevezen> then perhaps going as far as dpi?
1708 2011-03-28 16:06:53 <manveru> you'd have to somehow stop development of the clients
1709 2011-03-28 16:07:13 <reubgr> ok, I'm really out  now
1710 2011-03-28 16:07:14 <grbgout> aren't there also hard-coded nodes to default to if the client is behind a firewall/NAT?
1711 2011-03-28 16:07:15 reubgr has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1712 2011-03-28 16:07:16 Daviey has joined
1713 2011-03-28 16:07:21 <manveru> grbgout: yeah
1714 2011-03-28 16:07:35 <nevezen> hard coded or not, one can just take them offline..
1715 2011-03-28 16:07:42 <grbgout> nodes that are then queried about the nodes they're aware of, etc.
1716 2011-03-28 16:08:00 <manveru> but that makes it very hard for new nodes
1717 2011-03-28 16:08:09 <manveru> it wouldn't affect the existing network much
1718 2011-03-28 16:08:14 <grbgout> nevezen: how are you going to find them?  It's very easy to setup a wireless router.
1719 2011-03-28 16:08:27 <nevezen> easy yes
1720 2011-03-28 16:09:04 <nevezen> but how many people you actually know in real life that will connect?
1721 2011-03-28 16:09:04 <manveru> nevezen: it basically works like the freenode network
1722 2011-03-28 16:09:07 <manveru> err
1723 2011-03-28 16:09:10 <manveru> freenet
1724 2011-03-28 16:09:21 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
1725 2011-03-28 16:09:40 <grbgout> nevezen: right now, not many, but the principle/benefit of a mesh-wireless network are easy to espouse.
1726 2011-03-28 16:10:19 <grbgout> especially in these times, with the events in egypt shutting down its network.
1727 2011-03-28 16:10:23 <manveru> nevezen: regarding the hardcoded ones... it would be kinda hard to take all of the down at the same time since they're not all in the same country
1728 2011-03-28 16:10:29 <nevezen> all these setups are nice but I'd think you'd need a group of people in close proximity to exchange
1729 2011-03-28 16:11:00 <nevezen> then again, having a group of people huddled together isn't very anonymous, isn't it? :)
1730 2011-03-28 16:11:12 <grbgout> of course, but really all you'd need is a malicious wireless router set up to automatically connect to anyone's wireless network.
1731 2011-03-28 16:11:30 <grbgout> I have several WEP neighbors.
1732 2011-03-28 16:11:31 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rdc719c1b492e intersango/scr/summa.php: improved summa algorithm
1733 2011-03-28 16:11:35 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r50c2faaaa565 intersango/scr/summa.php: sub not add.
1734 2011-03-28 16:12:08 <manveru> hm
1735 2011-03-28 16:12:13 <grbgout> all you need is an illicit connection to a wired network.  Add a high-gain directional antenna... the local starbucks, library, school....
1736 2011-03-28 16:12:17 <manveru> how do i join the testing network?
1737 2011-03-28 16:12:18 bk128 has joined
1738 2011-03-28 16:12:22 <nevezen> think it'd be easier for the spooks to just interrogate you for your keys seize your computer..
1739 2011-03-28 16:12:52 <grbgout> manveru: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
1740 2011-03-28 16:12:59 <manveru> thanks
1741 2011-03-28 16:13:03 <nevezen> not many people would know about that, grbgout
1742 2011-03-28 16:13:11 <manveru> i'll try out my bank idea
1743 2011-03-28 16:13:12 skeledrew has joined
1744 2011-03-28 16:13:19 <nevezen> would you trust bitcoin over an untrusted network?
1745 2011-03-28 16:13:20 weissbier has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1746 2011-03-28 16:13:43 <grbgout> uhm, how is it not already over an untrusted network?  What is trusted about the internet?
1747 2011-03-28 16:13:57 <nevezen> yeah
1748 2011-03-28 16:13:58 <grbgout> the whole benefit of bitcoin is that it eliminates "trust", replacing it with "proof"
1749 2011-03-28 16:14:05 <bk128> I dont even trust my ISP
1750 2011-03-28 16:14:13 <grbgout> i barely trust my OS
1751 2011-03-28 16:14:13 <nevezen> therefore, not that anonymous
1752 2011-03-28 16:14:21 <grbgout> but that's 'cause I'm a sloppy admin
1753 2011-03-28 16:14:38 <grbgout> nevezen: how so?
1754 2011-03-28 16:14:53 <Necr0s> "trust but verify" lol
1755 2011-03-28 16:15:54 <grbgout> manveru: how are you planning on testing your idea with the testnet?  I haven't read-up on how to implement ideas through it.
1756 2011-03-28 16:16:26 <manveru> grbgout: basically right now i'm trying to figure out the protocol
1757 2011-03-28 16:16:44 <manveru> then testing transactions
1758 2011-03-28 16:16:45 <grbgout> manveru: have you read the white paper?
1759 2011-03-28 16:17:37 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: short OpenCL question - a single 32bit add operation is about the same speed as single 32bit xor operation?
1760 2011-03-28 16:17:48 <manveru> finally i want to setup a site that maintains accounts associated with a public key, so you can send your money there and get some percentage for letting me deal with the money
1761 2011-03-28 16:18:16 <grbgout> manveru: why would that be better than a local wallet?
1762 2011-03-28 16:18:46 <manveru> grbgout: well, it's meant for people who don't want to join the exchanges
1763 2011-03-28 16:18:55 <manveru> just getting 1-2% interest
1764 2011-03-28 16:19:28 <grbgout> Okay.  I haven't even begun to look at the exchanges, so I'm not familiar with any (potential) issues surrounding them.
1765 2011-03-28 16:19:46 citiz3n has joined
1766 2011-03-28 16:19:53 <manveru> it's better than keeping your money in the wallet where it gains no interest, and allows the bank to deal in higher volumes to make more profit
1767 2011-03-28 16:20:26 <manveru> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
1768 2011-03-28 16:20:30 <citiz3n> what kinda speeds are the new 6990s getting?
1769 2011-03-28 16:21:30 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rb90ec2b7e3e6 intersango/scr/summa.php: add to system in summa the unverified withdrawals.
1770 2011-03-28 16:21:32 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rde883675b776 intersango/cron/verif.sql: verify only allows deposits.
1771 2011-03-28 16:21:35 <grbgout> manveru: so the benefit to the user/consumer is interest?
1772 2011-03-28 16:22:11 <manveru> aye
1773 2011-03-28 16:22:36 <grbgout> manveru: what would prevent the operator/owner of the bank from transfering everyone's money into their private account, and disappearing? A la eve online.
1774 2011-03-28 16:22:39 <manveru> i'm not sure about you, but i keep most of my money in a bank :)
1775 2011-03-28 16:22:58 <manveru> nothing
1776 2011-03-28 16:23:23 <grbgout> manveru: indeed, but one of the benefits of the bitcoin described was no longer needing banks.
1777 2011-03-28 16:23:45 <manveru> you don't need one
1778 2011-03-28 16:24:10 <manveru> it's an option after all :)
1779 2011-03-28 16:24:13 <grbgout> indeed
1780 2011-03-28 16:24:26 <manveru> i don't expect a whole lot of people to trust me
1781 2011-03-28 16:24:32 <grbgout> I would be too leery of a bank in this system given how anonymous everything is.
1782 2011-03-28 16:24:33 <Necr0s> Fools and their money are soon parted.
1783 2011-03-28 16:25:36 bitcoiner has joined
1784 2011-03-28 16:25:42 <manveru> well, you can tackle that by making the bank staff identifiable?
1785 2011-03-28 16:26:03 x6763 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1786 2011-03-28 16:26:05 <manveru> and ideally accountable
1787 2011-03-28 16:26:18 <nevezen> are you interested in eve online, grbgout?
1788 2011-03-28 16:26:27 x6763 has joined
1789 2011-03-28 16:26:34 <manveru> of course that would mean taking the dispute offline and revealing the identity of the person complaining as well...
1790 2011-03-28 16:26:37 <grbgout> manveru: still a risk, at least for people in different countries: they're trusting the information about the people at the bank is legitimate.
1791 2011-03-28 16:26:42 <grbgout> nevezen: somewhat.
1792 2011-03-28 16:27:08 <nevezen> do you play or are you just excited with eve drama? :P
1793 2011-03-28 16:27:08 MartianW has joined
1794 2011-03-28 16:27:20 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1795 2011-03-28 16:27:43 <manveru> grbgout: well, i just see plenty of people trusting mtgox and other exchanges
1796 2011-03-28 16:27:46 <grbgout> nevezen: I don't play, and I'm not excited by the drama.  I just have a vague understanding about the game: piracy reins.
1797 2011-03-28 16:28:13 <manveru> they're essentially one-person shops
1798 2011-03-28 16:28:20 <grbgout> manveru: again, I haven't looked into the exchanges at all, so I'm not aware of their peculiarities.
1799 2011-03-28 16:28:36 <manveru> well, lemme explain it quick :)
1800 2011-03-28 16:28:40 <grbgout> by all means
1801 2011-03-28 16:28:52 <Necr0s> I've looked into them enough to be a bit leery.
1802 2011-03-28 16:28:58 <TD> manveru: banks in the real world can be trusted because
1803 2011-03-28 16:29:02 <TD> a) there are not very many of them
1804 2011-03-28 16:29:06 <TD> b) they are regulated to hell and back
1805 2011-03-28 16:29:22 <nevezen> piracy does reign. It's a fact of eve life
1806 2011-03-28 16:29:33 <TD> unless you'd like to go talk to your local regulators .... you aren't really comparable to a real bank
1807 2011-03-28 16:29:42 <TD> you'd do better to advertise yourself as an investment fund
1808 2011-03-28 16:29:44 <manveru> an exchange brings a few people together, they insert money into the exchange in a currency of their choosing, they place sell/buy orders, they withdraw money sometime later
1809 2011-03-28 16:29:52 <grbgout> nevezen: as I understand, that was the entire premise of the game, so I don't understand how any players could become upset by being taken advantage of.
1810 2011-03-28 16:30:02 <manveru> TD: good idea :)
1811 2011-03-28 16:30:15 <manveru> though i'm really bad at investing, since i have almost no experience
1812 2011-03-28 16:30:23 <manveru> but i'd love to build the software for it
1813 2011-03-28 16:30:42 <grbgout> manveru: ah, another software engineer? :)
1814 2011-03-28 16:30:43 <Necr0s> lol
1815 2011-03-28 16:30:54 <manveru> grbgout: this is -dev, :)
1816 2011-03-28 16:30:54 <Necr0s> the software to do the thinking and make the investment decisions?
1817 2011-03-28 16:30:56 rli has left ()
1818 2011-03-28 16:30:59 <grbgout> manveru: touche
1819 2011-03-28 16:31:04 <nevezen> they'd become upset by the volume of loss :)
1820 2011-03-28 16:31:25 <nevezen> or rather, losing something worth alot of isk
1821 2011-03-28 16:31:25 <Necr0s> ...ever watch the movie Pi?
1822 2011-03-28 16:31:34 <grbgout> Necr0s: it worked in that one episode of Ghost in the shell stand alone complex, or whatever --- the second season of the tv show.
1823 2011-03-28 16:31:47 <grbgout> Yeah, I've seen Pi.
1824 2011-03-28 16:32:03 <Necr0s> cool
1825 2011-03-28 16:32:13 <manveru> grbgout: the mathematician with too much gold?
1826 2011-03-28 16:32:24 <Necr0s> No gold involved.
1827 2011-03-28 16:32:38 <grbgout> manveru: in regards to GitS?
1828 2011-03-28 16:32:40 <manveru> i meant GitS
1829 2011-03-28 16:32:51 <Necr0s> But that was his goal initially.  Software to analyse pattern in stocks and predict future movement.
1830 2011-03-28 16:33:07 <grbgout> manveru: was that what he was trading?  The guy who died at his PC, but the software he wrote to trade stocks kept on going, which drew attention somehow?
1831 2011-03-28 16:33:15 <manveru> i've seen Pi too, but after the third time it was just too silly :P
1832 2011-03-28 16:33:43 <nevezen> the guy died in his bed :)
1833 2011-03-28 16:33:49 <Necr0s> The idea of such software is not new at all.
1834 2011-03-28 16:33:54 <manveru> grbgout: he kept his assets in gold... not sure what he was trading... everything on the market i guess
1835 2011-03-28 16:34:11 <grbgout> manveru: ah.
1836 2011-03-28 16:34:20 <grbgout> Necr0s: don't think anyone was suggesting it was ;)
1837 2011-03-28 16:34:25 <Necr0s> Indeed I'm sure that some of the brightest minds with some of the greatest computing resources are using and revising such software all the time.
1838 2011-03-28 16:34:42 <grbgout> nevezen: so, have you got a bridge in Eve online you'd like to sell me? :)
1839 2011-03-28 16:34:56 <grbgout> brb
1840 2011-03-28 16:35:10 <manveru> Necr0s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_trading
1841 2011-03-28 16:35:30 <Necr0s> HFT...
1842 2011-03-28 16:35:39 <Necr0s> I remember the talk about that, and GS.
1843 2011-03-28 16:35:58 <Necr0s> That's one technique.
1844 2011-03-28 16:36:52 <manveru> TD: actually, the pools right now are like investment funds
1845 2011-03-28 16:36:58 <nevezen> a bridge?
1846 2011-03-28 16:37:11 <Necr0s> lol
1847 2011-03-28 16:37:13 <Necr0s> figure of speech
1848 2011-03-28 16:37:42 <grbgout> Necr0s: aye, as Necr0s said: it's just a figure of speech.
1849 2011-03-28 16:38:20 <manveru> TD: you could also invest into an entity that buys hardware to generate coins and shares the output :)
1850 2011-03-28 16:38:30 <grbgout> nevezen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Bridge#Cultural_significance
1851 2011-03-28 16:38:43 <Necr0s> heh.
1852 2011-03-28 16:38:59 <Necr0s> I have an extra 5970 that I have no host for.  Maybe I could rent it out.
1853 2011-03-28 16:39:17 <grbgout> no host?
1854 2011-03-28 16:39:25 <manveru> Necr0s: see -otc, some people already offer that
1855 2011-03-28 16:39:26 <Necr0s> No available slot.
1856 2011-03-28 16:39:29 <grbgout> ah
1857 2011-03-28 16:39:29 robotarmy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1858 2011-03-28 16:39:35 <Necr0s> hmm
1859 2011-03-28 16:39:38 <grbgout> why not sell it?  I'd buy it...
1860 2011-03-28 16:39:52 <jgarzik> "Look at my gorgeous 5970, still in the box!  10 BTC/month for live 5970 webcam action."
1861 2011-03-28 16:39:53 <Necr0s> Maybe I should.
1862 2011-03-28 16:40:01 <Necr0s> heh
1863 2011-03-28 16:40:02 <grbgout> jgarzik: hah.
1864 2011-03-28 16:40:27 <nevezen> was I trying to scam you or something? hmmm..
1865 2011-03-28 16:40:43 <grbgout> nevezen: no, I was just joking around.
1866 2011-03-28 16:40:53 <Necr0s> The factory cooler that was on it had died, so I put this aftermarket Arctic cooler on it, and it's now a triple-width card because of that.
1867 2011-03-28 16:41:07 robotarmy has joined
1868 2011-03-28 16:41:33 <grbgout> nevezen: eve online being known for piracy after all, it stands to reason that seasoned players would try to lure people into the game so they can rip them off. I was just teasing.
1869 2011-03-28 16:41:56 <nevezen> haha
1870 2011-03-28 16:42:31 <nevezen> you know, eve online has it's own daytrading/stocks system
1871 2011-03-28 16:42:57 <nevezen> it has a market that functions like any other markets in the real world..
1872 2011-03-28 16:43:04 <grbgout> I'm aware.  Totally in-game, though, right?  No real-world currency exchanges, correct?
1873 2011-03-28 16:43:37 <manveru> people buy lots of stuff in-game for real money :)
1874 2011-03-28 16:43:44 <grbgout> I'm sure.
1875 2011-03-28 16:44:09 TippenEin has joined
1876 2011-03-28 16:44:20 <grbgout> but not like btc. You can't cash out game-currency for USD, for example.  Right?
1877 2011-03-28 16:44:41 alias420 has joined
1878 2011-03-28 16:45:47 <Necr0s> I'm sure there are mechanisms in place to do that.
1879 2011-03-28 16:45:57 <grbgout> dang, mini-itx's with PCIe16x are expensive :(
1880 2011-03-28 16:47:06 alias4201 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1881 2011-03-28 16:47:36 <BurtyB> grbgout so chop the end of the socket off? (assuming the space is clear)
1882 2011-03-28 16:47:48 <grbgout> I haven't built a PC in a long time, is newegg still a good place for selection and value?
1883 2011-03-28 16:47:51 <grbgout> BurtyB: huh?
1884 2011-03-28 16:48:19 <nevezen> yeah, people use to do it but the company locked down on it so hard that trading ingame currency for real currency is no longer worth it
1885 2011-03-28 16:48:33 <Necr0s> That would be a reference to the "16x card in a 1x slot" hack.
1886 2011-03-28 16:48:51 <grbgout> nevezen: interesting, I wonder why they didn't embrace it.  Set themselves up as a sort of mtgox
1887 2011-03-28 16:48:59 <BurtyB> indeed - "it worked for me"
1888 2011-03-28 16:49:02 <Necr0s> SL embraced it, I believe.
1889 2011-03-28 16:49:23 <nevezen> because ccp (the game company) is greedy
1890 2011-03-28 16:49:27 <Necr0s> Yeah, I buy gear from newegg all the time.
1891 2011-03-28 16:49:39 <grbgout> Wouldn't placing a 16x card in a 1x slot completely defeat the purpose of having a 16x card?
1892 2011-03-28 16:49:46 <nevezen> they wanted a cut of what people were making, ingame.
1893 2011-03-28 16:49:52 <BurtyB> grbgout depends what you want it for
1894 2011-03-28 16:49:59 <grbgout> BurtyB: gotchya
1895 2011-03-28 16:50:05 <grbgout> nevezen: don't exchanges take a cut?
1896 2011-03-28 16:50:41 <molecular> ;;bc,mtgox
1897 2011-03-28 16:50:42 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8648,"low":0.76,"vol":12981,"buy":0.761,"sell":0.7975,"last":0.76}}
1898 2011-03-28 16:50:42 <Necr0s> grbgout: yes, but that's not a problem for bitcoin mining.
1899 2011-03-28 16:50:49 <BurtyB> grbgout atm I have HD5870 in x1 and x4 happily mining away
1900 2011-03-28 16:50:50 <molecular> adjust your stuff on mtgox ;)
1901 2011-03-28 16:50:55 <nevezen> nope
1902 2011-03-28 16:51:07 <Necr0s> Where assloads of bandwidth is not needed.
1903 2011-03-28 16:51:19 <nevezen> because there was no real way to calculate an isk's worth in real currency
1904 2011-03-28 16:51:29 <grbgout> nevezen: ah.
1905 2011-03-28 16:51:32 <Necr0s> http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=42
1906 2011-03-28 16:51:40 <Necr0s> Scroll down the "downplugging" section.
1907 2011-03-28 16:51:50 Zarutian has joined
1908 2011-03-28 16:52:01 <grbgout> Necr0s: thanks.
1909 2011-03-28 16:52:06 <nevezen> you know eve online is subscription based right?
1910 2011-03-28 16:52:27 <grbgout> nevezen: I assumed
1911 2011-03-28 16:52:32 <grbgout> +it was.
1912 2011-03-28 16:52:39 <BurtyB> nevezen if you get enough ISK you can buy PLEX in game
1913 2011-03-28 16:52:45 <grbgout> ... that whole "finishing the thought" part of typing....
1914 2011-03-28 16:52:50 jeremydei has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1917 2011-03-28 16:53:59 <nevezen> plex was introduced not long ago
1918 2011-03-28 16:55:17 <nevezen> it's their way to combat what it deemed illegal exchange of isk/dollars
1919 2011-03-28 16:55:28 <grbgout> Necr0s: is that mrb person involved in bitcoin at all, to your knowledge (seen on forums, for example)?
1920 2011-03-28 16:58:52 devrandom has joined
1921 2011-03-28 17:00:21 <Diablo-D3> [12:16:06] <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: short OpenCL question - a single 32bit add operation is about the same speed as single 32bit xor operation?
1922 2011-03-28 17:00:35 <Diablo-D3> cosurgi: both should be single cycle on any sane platform
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1928 2011-03-28 17:13:22 <Diablo-D3> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/03/28/1634259/Java-Creator-James-Gosling-Hired-At-Google
1929 2011-03-28 17:16:16 Bosma has joined
1930 2011-03-28 17:25:31 <grbgout> Does the ATI GPU manufacturing company still exist after AMD bought it, or is it all under the AMD symbol?
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1934 2011-03-28 17:34:17 <RBecker> ;;bc,stats
1935 2011-03-28 17:34:19 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115478 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1449 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 6 hours, 10 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75079.13224368
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1940 2011-03-28 17:55:04 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: its all under the AMD brand
1941 2011-03-28 17:55:23 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: btw, AMD didnt have their own fabs outside of their small scale shit
1942 2011-03-28 17:55:31 <Diablo-D3> they all sent it out to be fabbed by a huge fabber
1943 2011-03-28 17:55:48 davex__ has joined
1944 2011-03-28 17:56:04 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: the only thing AMD did was chip design and post-packaging shit
1945 2011-03-28 17:56:19 <Necr0s> I herd u leik fabbing, so we put a fabber in ur fabber...
1946 2011-03-28 17:56:35 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: I'm aware ATI is now under the AMD brand, I'm wondering about the stock-symbol :)
1947 2011-03-28 17:57:06 <grbgout> It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when that mbr guy discovers bitcoin.
1948 2011-03-28 17:57:11 <grbgout> If he hasn't already.
1949 2011-03-28 17:57:19 <Necr0s> I'd imagine those details are available in ATI's filings with the SEC.
1950 2011-03-28 17:57:39 <grbgout> Necr0s: probably, but that's currently over my head.
1951 2011-03-28 17:57:40 <ArtForz> grbgout: erm, he did. a while ago.
1952 2011-03-28 17:57:47 <ArtForz> quite a while, actually.
1953 2011-03-28 17:58:02 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: the stock symbol merged into AMDs
1954 2011-03-28 17:58:12 <Diablo-D3> like, 3-4 years ago
1955 2011-03-28 17:58:12 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: good to know, thanks.
1956 2011-03-28 17:58:28 <ArtForz> mid january.
1957 2011-03-28 17:58:39 <grbgout> Diablo-D3: well, I knew amd bought ati, but wasn't sure how the IP was distributed....
1958 2011-03-28 17:59:19 <grbgout> Those PCIe extenders are ridiculously over priced for what they are.  A DIYer might do well to offer up some homebrew ones to the btc community.
1959 2011-03-28 17:59:20 <ArtForz> errr... AMD used to have their own fabs for pretty much forever
1960 2011-03-28 17:59:31 <ArtForz> grbgout: no they're not, thanks for playing
1961 2011-03-28 17:59:32 <Necr0s> wat
1962 2011-03-28 17:59:40 <Necr0s> I can get one for like $6.
1963 2011-03-28 17:59:42 <Diablo-D3> AMD "still does" have their own fabs
1964 2011-03-28 17:59:43 <Necr0s> That's overpriced?
1965 2011-03-28 17:59:45 <ArtForz> yea
1966 2011-03-28 17:59:51 <Diablo-D3> they split it off into a different company called global foundary
1967 2011-03-28 17:59:57 <Diablo-D3> but, lets face it, its still amd fab central
1968 2011-03-28 18:00:03 <ArtForz> well, the decent ones are like $15 if you order from china
1969 2011-03-28 18:00:14 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: btw, the IP wasnt "distributed"
1970 2011-03-28 18:00:21 <ArtForz> the cheap ones like that littleshop guy sells are like $6
1971 2011-03-28 18:00:21 <grbgout> well, Necr0s, on that mbr link you provided he mentions paying $35 for a single extender.  I hadn't visited the links to see if the price had changed.
1972 2011-03-28 18:00:25 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: all of ATI as a whole became a division of AMD
1973 2011-03-28 18:00:28 <Necr0s> The cheap ones aren't right-angle.
1974 2011-03-28 18:00:33 <grbgout> $35 certainly /is/ over priced.
1975 2011-03-28 18:00:38 <Diablo-D3> grbgout: so everything that was owned by ATI is now AMD's
1976 2011-03-28 18:00:44 <ArtForz> who cares if they're right-angle?
1977 2011-03-28 18:00:46 <Necr0s> I just look on feeBay.
1978 2011-03-28 18:01:09 <CIA-96> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r49 /trunk/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Add a DiskBlockStore and associated unit tests. This removes the need to download the block chain from scratch each time a program is started up.
1979 2011-03-28 18:01:12 <Necr0s> Depending on how you wanna mount things, right-angle may be desirable.
1980 2011-03-28 18:01:48 <ArtForz> btw, so far I haven seen *one* decent right-angle riser < $70
1981 2011-03-28 18:02:26 <Necr0s> All the ones I see use the classical-looking gray ribbon cables.
1982 2011-03-28 18:02:26 <ArtForz> all cheap 2-layer crap with unshielded 50 mil ribbon
1983 2011-03-28 18:02:38 <Diablo-D3> 9000 layers or bust
1984 2011-03-28 18:02:50 <TippenEin> 9001 pl0x
1985 2011-03-28 18:03:33 <ArtForz> adex makes good ones, but they're crazy expensive
1986 2011-03-28 18:03:38 <Necr0s> I can't imagine that those work too well with the frequencies being used by pcie.
1987 2011-03-28 18:03:46 <ArtForz> yeah, they don't
1988 2011-03-28 18:03:59 <ArtForz> well, the usually more or less work, if you're lucky.
1989 2011-03-28 18:04:55 <Necr0s> I wonde rif pcie has any sort of error detection/correction on the bus.
1990 2011-03-28 18:04:58 <ArtForz> yes
1991 2011-03-28 18:05:03 <Necr0s> ah, very nice.
1992 2011-03-28 18:05:12 <Necr0s> that helps.
1993 2011-03-28 18:05:28 <ArtForz> iirc CRC32, and it does retransmits
1994 2011-03-28 18:05:36 <ArtForz> kinda crazy, "designing" a decent PCIe riser isn't exactly rocket science
1995 2011-03-28 18:07:15 <ArtForz> okay, designing a decent one with 2-layer boards is pretty much impossible
1996 2011-03-28 18:07:22 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
1997 2011-03-28 18:08:00 <ArtForz> pretty hard to create 100 ohm differential / 50 ohm single ended pairs if you dont have a ground plane
1998 2011-03-28 18:09:19 <Diablo-D3> not true
1999 2011-03-28 18:09:22 <Diablo-D3> you can use tigers blood
2000 2011-03-28 18:09:24 * Diablo-D3 runs
2001 2011-03-28 18:10:01 <ArtForz> whoops, 100/60
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2014 2011-03-28 18:26:47 <lolhai> would it make a difference to mine under linux than windows?
2015 2011-03-28 18:30:24 <[Tycho]> Only if you have more than 4 GPUs in one PC
2016 2011-03-28 18:32:44 Stellar has joined
2017 2011-03-28 18:33:21 jeremydei has joined
2018 2011-03-28 18:33:22 <lolhai> mm ty :p
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2029 2011-03-28 19:07:30 <xelister> I can't mine shit with 5970 for ~3 weeks
2030 2011-03-28 19:07:41 <Blitzboom> man, join up a pool
2031 2011-03-28 19:08:05 <xelister> Blitzboom: nah, I'm minig solo like real man like hans solo =)
2032 2011-03-28 19:08:10 <xelister> if you feel my pain, send anything to 1EZqLR27uV7Kccs3frYK8yzhsPRcw4uRdB :)
2033 2011-03-28 19:08:37 <Blitzboom> sent a symbolic sum
2034 2011-03-28 19:08:53 <[Tycho]> xelister, welcome to my pool :)
2035 2011-03-28 19:09:40 <player3> How long will it take if I have a very shitty laptop to mine 0.1 bitcoin?
2036 2011-03-28 19:09:44 <xelister> [Tycho]: thanks perhaps I will try it out as well.. but I like the principle of solo miners.. they make network more distributed against any attacks
2037 2011-03-28 19:10:00 <Blitzboom> player3: hmm, half a day maybe?
2038 2011-03-28 19:10:03 <xelister> player3: in a pool, probably few days
2039 2011-03-28 19:10:18 <Blitzboom> ;;bc,calc 1000
2040 2011-03-28 19:10:18 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 9 years, 20 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 1 minute, and 27 seconds
2041 2011-03-28 19:10:21 <[Tycho]> xelister, not really "ANY attacks" :)
2042 2011-03-28 19:10:32 <Blitzboom> wait, what was the command for /day?
2043 2011-03-28 19:10:34 <player3> How can I see how far I have progressed so far?
2044 2011-03-28 19:10:36 <xelister> btw did slush recovered his lost 1000 BTC wallet? his pool working&paying again?
2045 2011-03-28 19:10:42 <Blitzboom> there is no "progress"
2046 2011-03-28 19:10:45 <xelister> player3: there is no progress, it is all a lottery thing
2047 2011-03-28 19:10:48 alias420 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2048 2011-03-28 19:10:49 <player3> oh
2049 2011-03-28 19:10:52 alias420 has joined
2050 2011-03-28 19:11:15 <xelister> well, its like mining gold on a field.  There is no progress.  You can find gold under next rock, or perhaps you will search 5 km² and get nonde
2051 2011-03-28 19:11:17 <xelister> *none
2052 2011-03-28 19:11:28 <player3> ok, so all or nothing
2053 2011-03-28 19:11:41 <player3> how much will be "found" then once it finds anything then?
2054 2011-03-28 19:11:42 <xelister> yeap, well with solo mining you look for 50 btc blocks
2055 2011-03-28 19:11:56 <xelister> with pool mining you are more frequently getting small ammounts in more predictable way
2056 2011-03-28 19:12:13 <player3> allright, I am just trying to mine to see how this whole thing works
2057 2011-03-28 19:12:21 <xelister> Blitzboom: got it, thanks =)
2058 2011-03-28 19:12:42 <player3> What I see as a problem though, if it's CPU power that decides who gets new money
2059 2011-03-28 19:12:48 <[Tycho]> player3, what is your speed ?
2060 2011-03-28 19:12:57 <player3> why don't someone with a botnet or access to a uni computer just get rich?
2061 2011-03-28 19:13:15 <Blitzboom> xelister: i agree that somehow it’s awesome to see this "generated block" thing in the client
2062 2011-03-28 19:13:16 <player3> [Tycho]: how do I check speed?
2063 2011-03-28 19:13:27 <Blitzboom> but still, pool is more rational with this kind of hashrate, unfortunately
2064 2011-03-28 19:13:42 <Blitzboom> i want to go solo, too, but i only have a 5870
2065 2011-03-28 19:13:48 <[Tycho]> player3, what mining software do you use ?
2066 2011-03-28 19:14:01 <player3> I just installed the Bitcoin program thingie
2067 2011-03-28 19:14:07 <player3> from sourceforge
2068 2011-03-28 19:14:08 peck has joined
2069 2011-03-28 19:14:10 bitcoiner has joined
2070 2011-03-28 19:14:13 <player3> linked from bitcoin.org
2071 2011-03-28 19:14:21 <player3> and clicked generate coins...
2072 2011-03-28 19:14:55 <player3> I am completely new to this, downloaded the client 2 mins ago
2073 2011-03-28 19:15:02 <xelister> player3: 1 good GPU is as good as 100 computers
2074 2011-03-28 19:15:08 <Diablo-D3> at least 100
2075 2011-03-28 19:15:23 <player3> GPU?
2076 2011-03-28 19:15:37 <xelister> graphical card, especially radeons 5xxx
2077 2011-03-28 19:15:40 <Diablo-D3> the fastest computer does like 16 mhash/sec, the fastest gpu does >315 mhash/sec
2078 2011-03-28 19:15:40 <player3> ahh
2079 2011-03-28 19:15:47 <player3> well, I have a shit one that's for sure
2080 2011-03-28 19:16:04 bitcoiner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2081 2011-03-28 19:16:15 <player3> I know a guy, who has access to a "super computer" at our uni
2082 2011-03-28 19:16:27 <player3> could he just make that run bitcoin, and get rich?
2083 2011-03-28 19:16:53 <Diablo-D3> nope
2084 2011-03-28 19:17:02 <genjix> tcatm: people are trading now https://britcoin.co.uk/api/trades.php
2085 2011-03-28 19:17:15 <Diablo-D3> player3: I could beat any "super computer" with a handful of gpus
2086 2011-03-28 19:17:35 <genjix> only at hashing
2087 2011-03-28 19:17:40 <genjix> try computing some math
2088 2011-03-28 19:18:00 <player3> I'm sure they are used for visual renderings too
2089 2011-03-28 19:18:07 <player3> and woul then have too GPU's too
2090 2011-03-28 19:18:15 <genjix> yeah but nothing special.
2091 2011-03-28 19:18:27 <player3> What I mean is, if this bitcoin economy takes off
2092 2011-03-28 19:18:38 <player3> and people actually start selling real stuff of real value for it
2093 2011-03-28 19:18:55 <player3> then what stops IBM from cracking open their computers, and mining the fuck out of it all?
2094 2011-03-28 19:19:08 <player3> or whoever has the best computer power for this
2095 2011-03-28 19:19:11 <tcatm> genjix: great. where's the trade history?
2096 2011-03-28 19:19:23 <[Tycho]> "<Diablo-D3> player3: I could beat any "super computer"" - not really any :)
2097 2011-03-28 19:19:26 <genjix> tcatm: tcatm https://britcoin.co.uk/api/getDepth.php
2098 2011-03-28 19:19:35 <tcatm> that's the market depth
2099 2011-03-28 19:19:54 <genjix> ohh, so you want the orders in last 24 hours?
2100 2011-03-28 19:20:23 <genjix> "http://mtgox.com/code/data/getTrades.php"
2101 2011-03-28 19:20:33 <tcatm> yep
2102 2011-03-28 19:20:48 <genjix> k
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2105 2011-03-28 19:25:22 <tcatm> genjix: is the 92233720368.5478 order "real"?
2106 2011-03-28 19:25:36 player3 has quit (Quit: quit)
2107 2011-03-28 19:26:17 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2108 2011-03-28 19:26:39 <genjix> tcatm: yeah but there's not much volume yet to offset the outliers
2109 2011-03-28 19:26:51 NOM_ has joined
2110 2011-03-28 19:27:14 <genjix> http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/318924551#318925999 <- 4chan talking about bitcoin again
2111 2011-03-28 19:27:16 <tcatm> it crashes my update script
2112 2011-03-28 19:27:24 hwolf has joined
2113 2011-03-28 19:27:38 <genjix> "You earn them, much like credit or chuck E cheese tokens, by doing various deed for other DEEP WEB users.
2114 2011-03-28 19:27:41 <genjix> Most of the time they require fellatio."
2115 2011-03-28 19:27:41 <genjix> lol
2116 2011-03-28 19:28:23 tylergillies has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2117 2011-03-28 19:28:27 tjgillies has joined
2118 2011-03-28 19:29:09 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
2119 2011-03-28 19:29:32 Meelu has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2120 2011-03-28 19:30:09 <genjix> phantomcircuit: it's not so bad, quite a few people discussing it there reasonably.
2121 2011-03-28 19:30:20 <genjix> ">>318929712
2122 2011-03-28 19:30:20 <genjix> 1BTC = 0.92 USD
2123 2011-03-28 19:30:21 <genjix> YEH NOT WORTH ACTUAL MONEYS"
2124 2011-03-28 19:30:34 <phantomcircuit> lol
2125 2011-03-28 19:30:45 <phantomcircuit> actually i was facepalming at sqlite
2126 2011-03-28 19:30:49 <genjix> o
2127 2011-03-28 19:30:55 * BurtyB *hugs* sqlite
2128 2011-03-28 19:30:59 <phantomcircuit> it's returning an integer for a field that's clearly specified as BINARY(32)
2129 2011-03-28 19:31:01 <genjix> why you aren't using mysql already?
2130 2011-03-28 19:31:13 <phantomcircuit> im trying to make this portable
2131 2011-03-28 19:31:13 <genjix> mysql = fastest sql :]
2132 2011-03-28 19:31:25 meelu has joined
2133 2011-03-28 19:31:35 <BlueMatt> "mysql.com gets hacked using sql injection"
2134 2011-03-28 19:31:42 <BurtyB> genjix depends what you're doing with it ime
2135 2011-03-28 19:31:49 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lold pretty hard at that
2136 2011-03-28 19:33:42 <Aciid> mysql , the collobrative database instance
2137 2011-03-28 19:33:44 lyspooner has joined
2138 2011-03-28 19:33:48 <Aciid> chahah
2139 2011-03-28 19:34:22 <phantomcircuit> oh snap
2140 2011-03-28 19:34:31 <phantomcircuit> god damn it sqlite
2141 2011-03-28 19:34:57 <phantomcircuit> in order to get the behavior of BINARY(32) I have to specify it as BLOB
2142 2011-03-28 19:35:18 <phantomcircuit> but if i was to switch to MySQL or postgre BLOB would be slow as hell
2143 2011-03-28 19:35:19 <phantomcircuit> >.>
2144 2011-03-28 19:35:21 <phantomcircuit> ARGH
2145 2011-03-28 19:35:55 <genjix> "On a related note, tcatm of Bitcoin Charts reported in #bitcoin-otc that there are over 400 simultaneous visitors to the BitcoinCharts.com site, many of which are on auto-refresh (every 5 seconds)."
2146 2011-03-28 19:37:00 <tcatm> bitcoincharts was on hackernews
2147 2011-03-28 19:37:20 <BurtyB> genjix do you accept faster payments on britcoin? and it might be an idea to put the timezone for the maint on the front page
2148 2011-03-28 19:38:12 <genjix> BurtyB: right now im authorising the scripts to make sure the output is sane
2149 2011-03-28 19:38:22 <genjix> once im more confident then i'll switch on automation
2150 2011-03-28 19:39:24 dishwara has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
2151 2011-03-28 19:39:26 * BurtyB meant faster payments rather than BACS/CHAPS etc
2152 2011-03-28 19:39:36 <genjix> im scared of some runaway script going mental and ruining everything. so i import the database locally, run the script, run test suite on database, then confirm it and allow it on server
2153 2011-03-28 19:39:47 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2154 2011-03-28 19:41:15 <BurtyB> yeah, I'm just thinking FPS would make it a lot nicer than waiting days for BACS and then your processing
2155 2011-03-28 19:41:35 <genjix> FPS?
2156 2011-03-28 19:42:03 <BurtyB> faster payments (same day transfers)
2157 2011-03-28 19:42:10 <genjix> ahh
2158 2011-03-28 19:42:19 <genjix> it would, but the site is beta
2159 2011-03-28 19:42:58 <genjix> and i dont feel safe because casual when there's 1000 btc + £200 on there :|
2160 2011-03-28 19:43:03 <genjix> *being
2161 2011-03-28 19:44:00 <BurtyB> genjix yup, I may transfer some in later
2162 2011-03-28 19:44:03 bitcoiner has joined
2163 2011-03-28 19:45:21 <genjix> BurtyB: if you message me, then i'll authorise your payment immediately because i dont think you'll do a chargeback with me :p
2164 2011-03-28 19:46:28 <BurtyB> genjix ta :)
2165 2011-03-28 19:47:17 m00p has joined
2166 2011-03-28 19:49:04 <genjix> AnonX: yo, i replied to your pm
2167 2011-03-28 19:51:31 osearth has joined
2168 2011-03-28 19:52:46 <tcatm> genjix: getTrades.php ready?
2169 2011-03-28 19:53:35 <genjix> tcatm: ok, i'll make it. i'll poke you when it's done.
2170 2011-03-28 19:58:12 TD_ has joined
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2173 2011-03-28 20:08:41 <phantomcircuit> !
2174 2011-03-28 20:09:06 <phantomcircuit> all of my problems are due to sqlalchemy assuming strict typing
2175 2011-03-28 20:09:07 <phantomcircuit> >.>
2176 2011-03-28 20:10:17 <BurtyB> that's one thing sqlite doesnt have :)
2177 2011-03-28 20:10:56 <luke-jr> BurtyB: actually, it does
2178 2011-03-28 20:10:58 <luke-jr> at least from Python
2179 2011-03-28 20:11:18 <luke-jr> I had to UPDATE foo SET a=1 WHERE a='1'
2180 2011-03-28 20:14:22 <BurtyB> luke-jr ah, I wrote the sqlite-php module many years ago and everything was text :)
2181 2011-03-28 20:16:33 <CIA-96> bitcoin: phantomcircuit <phantomcircuit@covertinferno.org> sqlalchemy * r37ea51d2b321 bitcoin-alt/ (.gitignore bitcoin/peer.py bitcoin/storage.py): batched the check for inv
2182 2011-03-28 20:16:36 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r5ff5220d4b70 intersango/cron/ (5 files): actually perform bitcoin withdrawls now.
2183 2011-03-28 20:16:38 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * ra82b1b193820 intersango/errors.php: stop it erroring on localhost.
2184 2011-03-28 20:17:33 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, actually it doesn't, the types returned by the sqlite3 module are dynamic based on a heuristic
2185 2011-03-28 20:17:48 <phantomcircuit> (ie a list of conversion maps)
2186 2011-03-28 20:17:59 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: my problem was with a SELECT
2187 2011-03-28 20:18:20 <luke-jr> that is, it wouldn't do < or > with what it considers strings
2188 2011-03-28 20:18:42 <phantomcircuit> i dont think that's an issue anymore
2189 2011-03-28 20:18:57 <phantomcircuit> if you specify a column type it will make all of those columns that type
2190 2011-03-28 20:19:17 <phantomcircuit> the trouble is that you can send one type to the database and get a totally different type back
2191 2011-03-28 20:19:34 <phantomcircuit> because the database will interpret whatever you get it according to the type affinity
2192 2011-03-28 20:19:44 <phantomcircuit> so you can completely lose data, that is actually there
2193 2011-03-28 20:19:46 <phantomcircuit> ?!?!?
2194 2011-03-28 20:24:01 hwolf has quit ()
2195 2011-03-28 20:26:33 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rd17090240d9f intersango/cron/verify_withdrawals_bitcoin.php: just to be safe.
2196 2011-03-28 20:26:53 <Stellar> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4778.0
2197 2011-03-28 20:27:04 <Stellar> that's a  good initiative
2198 2011-03-28 20:27:12 <Stellar> we need something like hackernews
2199 2011-03-28 20:27:21 <Stellar> all in one daily bitcoin news
2200 2011-03-28 20:27:33 <Stellar> from twitter, exposure and such
2201 2011-03-28 20:27:36 <Stellar> :)
2202 2011-03-28 20:28:02 <Stellar> i prefer if the site able to archive the news
2203 2011-03-28 20:29:35 zylche has joined
2204 2011-03-28 20:33:08 synisma has joined
2205 2011-03-28 20:34:08 Joozero has joined
2206 2011-03-28 20:34:14 <Joozero> hi
2207 2011-03-28 20:34:21 <Joozero> is there magicaltux?
2208 2011-03-28 20:35:00 <Joozero> I just want to know how I can add italian language to the wiki :|
2209 2011-03-28 20:44:01 jackSmith has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2210 2011-03-28 20:45:28 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: since when does SQLIte support column types?
2211 2011-03-28 20:46:59 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
2212 2011-03-28 20:49:52 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2213 2011-03-28 20:53:02 <docl> when I attempt to make bitcoind under freebsd 7.2 on my web hosting shell account, I am getting an error:
2214 2011-03-28 20:53:03 <docl> cc1plus: out of memory allocating 1048576 bytes after a total of 0 bytes
2215 2011-03-28 20:53:03 <docl> gmake: *** [obj/nogui/main.o] Error 1
2216 2011-03-28 20:53:03 <docl> I'm using the makefile.unix from http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=379 and the commang "gmake -f makefile.unix bitcoind".
2217 2011-03-28 20:53:50 <ArtForz> wild-ass guess, you're running out of memory
2218 2011-03-28 20:54:10 <docl> how can I check?
2219 2011-03-28 20:55:26 <ArtForz> dunno
2220 2011-03-28 20:55:28 <cosurgi> Diablo-D3: thx
2221 2011-03-28 20:56:19 <ArtForz> but here g++ needs ~600M
2222 2011-03-28 20:56:46 <ArtForz> closer to 750 for rpc.cpp
2223 2011-03-28 20:57:35 * sipa feels like splitting up bitcoin in a dozen more sourcefiles, and move a lot code from header files to source files
2224 2011-03-28 20:58:25 <ArtForz> probably heavy template use + every cpp #including everything and the kitchen sink
2225 2011-03-28 20:58:40 <gasteve> sipa: don't bother...I've done it
2226 2011-03-28 20:58:52 <docl> it doesn't cough up the error til it gets to main.cpp :/
2227 2011-03-28 20:59:05 <gasteve> got bitcoind compiling...will get gui compiling tomorrow
2228 2011-03-28 20:59:21 <sipa> gasteve: nice :)
2229 2011-03-28 20:59:54 <gasteve> all classes are separated into their own .h/*-inl.h/*.cpp files nicely...need to clean up the loose functions
2230 2011-03-28 21:00:07 <ArtForz> yeah
2231 2011-03-28 21:00:10 <sipa> is it on github somewhere?
2232 2011-03-28 21:00:14 <gasteve> not yet
2233 2011-03-28 21:00:17 <ArtForz> before main.cpp it tops out ~400MB
2234 2011-03-28 21:00:47 EvanR-work has quit (Changing host)
2235 2011-03-28 21:00:47 EvanR-work has joined
2236 2011-03-28 21:00:56 <gasteve> was going to ask...not sure what to do about the copyright notice...I think I saw more recent copyrights just mentioning the "bitcoin developers"
2237 2011-03-28 21:01:31 <sipa> gasteve: have you also prunes the includes?
2238 2011-03-28 21:01:39 <sipa> not all source files including everything
2239 2011-03-28 21:02:39 <TD_> gasteve: did you make any changes beyond splitting into files?
2240 2011-03-28 21:02:43 <gasteve> the headers for the classes are well pruned (only the class spec in the *.h, templates and inlines are in the *-inl.h, and definitions in the *.cpp)
2241 2011-03-28 21:02:51 toffoo has quit ()
2242 2011-03-28 21:02:52 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
2243 2011-03-28 21:02:52 TD_ is now known as TD
2244 2011-03-28 21:03:01 * TD worries about refactorings in the absence of a test suite
2245 2011-03-28 21:03:04 <gasteve> no, splitting up is the only change
2246 2011-03-28 21:03:07 TDX_ has joined
2247 2011-03-28 21:03:13 <TD> cool
2248 2011-03-28 21:03:18 <sipa> gasteve: nice, but i mean, is it still #include "headers.h" everywhere, or specialized includes in every file?
2249 2011-03-28 21:03:21 <gasteve> TD: me too!  next on my list is to write unit tests
2250 2011-03-28 21:03:27 <sipa> (i clearly prefer the latter...)
2251 2011-03-28 21:03:33 <TD> nice
2252 2011-03-28 21:03:38 <gavinandresen> yeah, nice
2253 2011-03-28 21:03:40 <TD> that's a great step for the project
2254 2011-03-28 21:03:45 <sipa> absolutely
2255 2011-03-28 21:03:50 <gasteve> ah, headers are somewhat pruned (yes, headers.h is much smaller now...but some more work to go)
2256 2011-03-28 21:04:12 <sipa> i doubt it's necessary to do all that in one step though
2257 2011-03-28 21:04:15 <TD> gasteve: you can look at how i'm doing it in bitcoinj if you like. a good first step is to introduce something like CNetworkParameters. it's convenient for unit testing to be able to artificially weaken/tweak the difficulty and so on
2258 2011-03-28 21:04:31 <TD> right now there is if (fTestNet) all over the place
2259 2011-03-28 21:04:38 toffoo has joined
2260 2011-03-28 21:04:41 <sipa> that'd be a nice cleanup indeed
2261 2011-03-28 21:05:16 <TD> i've got a lot of mileage out of having separate NetworkParameters instances for testnet, prodnet and unit tests (where difficulty is set so half of all solutions pass)
2262 2011-03-28 21:05:42 <gasteve> I also was to use makedepend for building the dependencies (right now, everything depends on all the headers, which is a pain whenever you want to make a small change in a header (forces a recompile of everything), but I'm not an expert in make...need to do a bit of reading
2263 2011-03-28 21:05:54 <gasteve> s/was/want/
2264 2011-03-28 21:05:58 jackSmith has joined
2265 2011-03-28 21:06:20 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2266 2011-03-28 21:06:28 T_X has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2269 2011-03-28 21:06:46 T_X has joined
2270 2011-03-28 21:07:29 <gasteve> when I get bitcoin compiling, I'll publish to github (note: I'm only compiling on OSX, would be nice if someone could fix the makefile and compile for windows & linux (mainly so I don't have to ;)
2271 2011-03-28 21:07:51 <sipa> gasteve: i'd suggest you to send a patch as soon as you have it working (and you know you didn't change anything except for reorganisation)
2272 2011-03-28 21:08:07 <sipa> since it will probably conflict with a lot of other people's own branches
2273 2011-03-28 21:09:24 gruez has joined
2274 2011-03-28 21:10:11 <gasteve> as soon as I get the GUI compiling (bitcoind is already), I'll commit and push to github...I won't worry too much about the cleanliness of the non class code (having all the classes nicely factored is a good start)...not sure about generating a patch though...I think it's the sort of change you want to just move over to rather than trying to patch
2275 2011-03-28 21:10:26 <gasteve> (but, I don't have much experience in working with patch files and such either)
2276 2011-03-28 21:10:52 <TD> [Tycho]: whoa bad luck about the forum!
2277 2011-03-28 21:11:40 <genjix> Joozero:
2278 2011-03-28 21:11:44 <genjix> ;;bc,seen MagicalTux
2279 2011-03-28 21:11:45 <gribble> Error: "bc,seen" is not a valid command.
2280 2011-03-28 21:11:50 <genjix> ;;seen MagicalTux
2281 2011-03-28 21:11:51 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 6 hours, 16 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> ok
2282 2011-03-28 21:12:10 <Joozero> ...
2283 2011-03-28 21:12:14 <sipa> gasteve: if you need github, no need to generate a patch file :)
2284 2011-03-28 21:12:45 <gasteve> I worship git (a bit new to github though)
2285 2011-03-28 21:12:45 EPiSKiNG has quit ()
2286 2011-03-28 21:13:32 * sipa didn't ever work with eithe git or github before working on bitcoin
2287 2011-03-28 21:13:45 Necr0s has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2288 2011-03-28 21:15:21 <gasteve> I once implemented a git clone for Smalltalk (so I buried my head deep in the inner workings of git)...I find it breathtakingly simply in a world full of convoluted and over complexified version control systems
2289 2011-03-28 21:16:30 <TD> lol
2290 2011-03-28 21:17:00 <TD> jesus .... if you find git simple i don't want to know what other version control systems you used
2291 2011-03-28 21:17:13 <genjix> git isn't hard... it's a godsend
2292 2011-03-28 21:17:29 <genjix> but i heard it's been super optimised by linus when he invented it :p
2293 2011-03-28 21:17:39 <TD> uh huh
2294 2011-03-28 21:17:46 <genjix> (and we used to use cvs)
2295 2011-03-28 21:18:12 <gasteve> you have to get past the cmdline tools and look at the versioning model behind it...the simplicity of the content addressable DB and the object relationships, etc
2296 2011-03-28 21:19:28 <gruez> is there a connection limit?
2297 2011-03-28 21:19:33 <gruez> for the bitcoin client
2298 2011-03-28 21:19:52 <TD> yes
2299 2011-03-28 21:20:00 <gruez> what is it?
2300 2011-03-28 21:20:48 <sipa> i find git's terminology a bit weird sometimes
2301 2011-03-28 21:20:55 * sipa was svn user before
2302 2011-03-28 21:21:01 <gruez> if i don't forward my ports, it's stuck at 8
2303 2011-03-28 21:21:06 <gruez> but if i do forward my ports,
2304 2011-03-28 21:21:13 <gruez> it's usually around 60
2305 2011-03-28 21:21:43 <sipa> also, it seems the habit on github that you only do a push as soon as something is finished and you rebased it into a nice single/few commits
2306 2011-03-28 21:22:08 <gasteve> I guess where git is really simple is how it deals with directories/files simply as objects with relationships and how that makes branching and merging simple
2307 2011-03-28 21:22:28 gjs278 has joined
2308 2011-03-28 21:23:07 <TD> default is 117
2309 2011-03-28 21:23:17 <TD> i think
2310 2011-03-28 21:23:24 <gasteve> also, the p2p aspect of git is cool
2311 2011-03-28 21:23:56 <sipa> i used svn mainly as an online backup/synchronization system, not really for collaboration
2312 2011-03-28 21:24:24 <sipa> and somehow git feels less intended for that purpose
2313 2011-03-28 21:24:31 <gasteve> (and the fact that you always have all the versions of something locally ...which means you can do things with the version history while disconnected and it's very fast)
2314 2011-03-28 21:24:44 <sipa> that's a huge advantage indeed
2315 2011-03-28 21:25:56 <genjix> yeah svn was evil
2316 2011-03-28 21:26:12 <genjix> make a commit... wait 30 secs
2317 2011-03-28 21:26:23 <sipa> i love svn, but again - i didn't really use it for collaboration
2318 2011-03-28 21:26:28 <sipa> 30s? wow
2319 2011-03-28 21:26:31 <genjix> then hear the maintainer complain because you made a mistake
2320 2011-03-28 21:26:33 <genjix> yeah
2321 2011-03-28 21:26:37 <[Tycho]> Who is the bitcoin forum admin ?
2322 2011-03-28 21:26:43 <genjix> sirius-m
2323 2011-03-28 21:26:50 <genjix> [Tycho]: see last post on discussion
2324 2011-03-28 21:26:50 lyspooner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2325 2011-03-28 21:26:58 <genjix> your account was baleted
2326 2011-03-28 21:27:29 <gjs278> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5079.0
2327 2011-03-28 21:27:38 <[Tycho]> Don't know what 'baleted' is...
2328 2011-03-28 21:28:00 <[Tycho]> Oh.
2329 2011-03-28 21:28:54 <x6763> darn, mine was deleted, too
2330 2011-03-28 21:30:02 <niekie> Oh my, you guys removed Satoshi? :o
2331 2011-03-28 21:30:03 * Diablo-D3 smacks [Tycho] 
2332 2011-03-28 21:30:09 jostmey has joined
2333 2011-03-28 21:30:12 <sipa> was it the real satoshi's account that was deleted, or the face one? :)
2334 2011-03-28 21:30:14 <sipa> fake
2335 2011-03-28 21:31:00 <sipa> the real one still exists :)
2336 2011-03-28 21:31:13 toffoo has quit ()
2337 2011-03-28 21:39:32 toffoo has joined
2338 2011-03-28 21:41:45 <gasteve> this should stoke the conspiracy theories about satoshi
2339 2011-03-28 21:42:26 EPiSKiNG has joined
2340 2011-03-28 21:42:34 Kicchiri has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com ))
2341 2011-03-28 21:43:06 <EPiSKiNG> what's the best overclocking tool for ATI cards?
2342 2011-03-28 21:43:51 <jackmcbarn> why's bitcoin using 246MB of memory?
2343 2011-03-28 21:45:25 tippenein__ has joined
2344 2011-03-28 21:46:24 adlsaks has joined
2345 2011-03-28 21:49:40 <Validus> id give their default tool a go if they have it for your OS
2346 2011-03-28 21:49:43 <osearth> jackmcbarn bitcoin
2347 2011-03-28 21:49:52 <osearth> bitcoin!!!
2348 2011-03-28 21:49:57 <Validus> it oc'd mine with no fuss
2349 2011-03-28 21:50:14 <gjs278> anyone have any experience with overvolting an asus 5870 above 950 on linux? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5073.0
2350 2011-03-28 21:50:23 <jackmcbarn> osearth: what?
2351 2011-03-28 21:50:36 <osearth> which bitcoin ?
2352 2011-03-28 21:50:52 EPiSKiNG has quit ()
2353 2011-03-28 21:53:00 <jackmcbarn> the program named bitcoin in the bin/32 directory
2354 2011-03-28 21:55:46 <osearth> that's more then any of mine are using, did you just launch it recently?
2355 2011-03-28 21:57:22 <osearth> i think, if you arent doing pooled mining it has to do some work initially. but it might help you get more replies if you say OS, Bitcoin Client etc
2356 2011-03-28 21:59:19 <jackmcbarn> im on ubuntu 8.04, and its been running for a long time
2357 2011-03-28 21:59:24 <jackmcbarn> im not pooled mining
2358 2011-03-28 21:59:47 <tippenein__> solo mining on a ubuntu desktop?
2359 2011-03-28 21:59:52 <jackmcbarn> running since january 3rd
2360 2011-03-28 21:59:58 <ArtForz> well, bitcoin (gui) can use that much easily
2361 2011-03-28 22:00:00 <osearth> youget any cash?
2362 2011-03-28 22:00:04 <jackmcbarn> this isnt my generation machine
2363 2011-03-28 22:00:12 <jackmcbarn> yes, ive got 1 block, ever
2364 2011-03-28 22:00:43 <tippenein__> $50 for 4 months of energy
2365 2011-03-28 22:00:54 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
2366 2011-03-28 22:00:56 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115511 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1416 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 23 hours, 32 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75583.86146454
2367 2011-03-28 22:01:05 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc 400000
2368 2011-03-28 22:01:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 1 week, 1 day, 13 hours, 44 minutes, and 15 seconds
2369 2011-03-28 22:01:16 <jackmcbarn> ignoring generation rate for now
2370 2011-03-28 22:01:24 <JFK911> still beating "average"
2371 2011-03-28 22:01:36 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rca1cf94abd62 intersango/cron/parse_deposits.php: take command line argument.
2372 2011-03-28 22:01:38 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * ree4059939360 intersango/cron/parse_deposits.php: actually perform query for real.
2373 2011-03-28 22:01:39 <jackmcbarn> i have a 64-bit ubuntu 10.10 pc that just restarted this morning that is generating, its not using anywhere near that much memory
2374 2011-03-28 22:01:49 <jackmcbarn> though its using bitcoind
2375 2011-03-28 22:03:25 <gruez> <TD> default is 117
2376 2011-03-28 22:03:37 <gruez> does anyone actually get that much?
2377 2011-03-28 22:03:48 <gruez> also, 117 seems arbitrary
2378 2011-03-28 22:04:10 <JFK911> is there any advantage to forwarding
2379 2011-03-28 22:04:17 <JFK911> does that expose the rpc thing too
2380 2011-03-28 22:04:24 <TD> it's 125 - 8
2381 2011-03-28 22:04:40 <gruez> how come i never reach that limit?
2382 2011-03-28 22:04:49 <gruez> is there an OS limit?
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2389 2011-03-28 22:17:04 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, sqlite supports setting a type affinity for columns
2390 2011-03-28 22:17:12 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, which ends up being pretty close to typing
2391 2011-03-28 22:17:42 <phantomcircuit> but it actually turns out that i have no idea why this wasn't working
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2394 2011-03-28 22:21:32 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * r4993f8cf5994 intersango/scr/sync_to_bitcoin.php: synchronise funds laying about.
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2401 2011-03-28 22:31:35 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rbdabf2d44acb intersango/cron/verify_deposits.sql: verification for bitcoin deposits are now instant.
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2412 2011-03-28 22:47:15 <curiositysquared> I'm calculating that with 600 blocks done there's a 50% chance the next difficulty will be between 73269-77542.5033 and between 69373-81438 with 95%.
2413 2011-03-28 22:47:55 <curiositysquared> That means that there is at least a 50% chance the prediction is off by more than 2k right now.
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2416 2011-03-28 22:51:31 <CIA-96> bitcoin: genjix <fake@lol.u> * rf066cf4d30b9 intersango/orderbook.php: denominate all costs in terms of bitcoins.
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2420 2011-03-28 22:57:01 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
2421 2011-03-28 22:57:02 <gribble> 75395.44913543
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2424 2011-03-28 23:05:41 <Kiba> bitcoin is a very...small economy
2425 2011-03-28 23:05:51 slothbag10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2426 2011-03-28 23:06:29 <CIA-96> bitcoin: phantomcircuit <phantomcircuit@covertinferno.org> sqlalchemy * redd494852b66 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/peer.py: batched the getdata calls
2427 2011-03-28 23:07:25 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
2428 2011-03-28 23:07:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115515 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1412 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 23 hours, 43 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75395.44913543
2429 2011-03-28 23:07:44 <sipa> curiositysquared: that is assuming the hashrate 1) didn't change during those 600 blocks 2) won't change during the coming 1412 blocks
2430 2011-03-28 23:10:30 <lfm> I think hes assuming it is random and follows a normal distribution
2431 2011-03-28 23:10:50 <sipa> there are two things happening here
2432 2011-03-28 23:11:22 <lfm> only 2?
2433 2011-03-28 23:11:32 <sipa> we obviously assume a poisson process for the generation of coins already, this makes it hard to estimate, but allows you - as curiositysquared correctly states - to calculate an certainty interval
2434 2011-03-28 23:11:55 <sipa> but the actual hashrate, being a parameter of that (unknown) poisson process, also changes in time
2435 2011-03-28 23:12:56 <sipa> and my point is that the actual hashrate (which we cannot know) has quite some variations even on a single day - my guess is with an order of magniture of something like 30GH/s (corresponding to a difficulty difference of about 4k)
2436 2011-03-28 23:14:04 <osearth> Almost 5 bitcoins for running 28 2ghz cpus for a week
2437 2011-03-28 23:14:12 <lfm> ya for instance it seems some people only hash at night (maybe business systems doing other work during day)
2438 2011-03-28 23:14:58 <sipa> indeed
2439 2011-03-28 23:15:49 <sipa> it may be even a lot more than 30GH/s (up to 100GH/s i'd say), but it's very hard to be certain about that
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2444 2011-03-28 23:18:13 <osearth> is it stilll possible to break even if you buy a high end GPU or 3
2445 2011-03-28 23:18:42 jrabbit has joined
2446 2011-03-28 23:18:56 <lfm> osearth: sure
2447 2011-03-28 23:19:59 <Necr0s> heh...I haven't yet.
2448 2011-03-28 23:20:02 <Necr0s> I bought 3.
2449 2011-03-28 23:20:44 <lfm> well I spoze it might depend how much you pay for electricity
2450 2011-03-28 23:20:45 <Necr0s> well, 3 cards.  6 gpus.
2451 2011-03-28 23:21:05 <lfm> it doesnt matter how many you buy so much as which ones
2452 2011-03-28 23:22:12 <nanotube> curiositysquared: how can you calculate that - you never know when a mystery-miner type guy will jump in? or are you assuming that the 'true hash rate' remains the same, and only thing than changes is luck of the network?
2453 2011-03-28 23:22:49 <lfm> I think hes assuming it is random and follows a normal distribution
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2455 2011-03-28 23:32:40 antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2456 2011-03-28 23:35:24 <SykeP> most assume the value of bitcoins will roughly follow difficulty
2457 2011-03-28 23:35:47 <lfm> very rough
2458 2011-03-28 23:37:56 <SykeP> at 600 block in I think we're way too early to be making any reasonable predictions on the next difficulty adjustment
2459 2011-03-28 23:38:09 <SykeP> 50% chance prediction already? no way.
2460 2011-03-28 23:40:07 <sipa> his calculation assumes the hash rate is constant, i believe
2461 2011-03-28 23:40:19 <SykeP> useless assumption
2462 2011-03-28 23:40:30 <vrs> genjix: you have this paypal chargeback problem. can't you just give paypal a link to blockexplorer and say "there, i did my part, i want my money"?
2463 2011-03-28 23:41:08 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2464 2011-03-28 23:41:14 <lfm> if paypal knows what bitcoin is they might, I doubt it tho
2465 2011-03-28 23:41:15 Minert has joined
2466 2011-03-28 23:41:18 <doublec> how do you prove that you don't control blockexplorer?
2467 2011-03-28 23:41:33 <midnightmagic> the same way you prove i'm not a fed.
2468 2011-03-28 23:42:29 <lfm> you are a fed? wow~
2469 2011-03-28 23:42:33 <midnightmagic> but you don't have to point them at blockexplorer. they can run the crypto themselves and verify that the money was transferred to previously-agreed-upon destination address.
2470 2011-03-28 23:43:27 antivigilante has joined
2471 2011-03-28 23:43:31 <nanotube> right, they can grab the blockchain and query it themselves.
2472 2011-03-28 23:43:38 <nanotube> bbe is just a pretty face on top of the block chain.
2473 2011-03-28 23:43:48 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2474 2011-03-28 23:44:19 phantomcircuit has joined
2475 2011-03-28 23:44:53 <vrs> lfm: they do
2476 2011-03-28 23:45:23 <vrs> exactly, blockexplorer is just a frontend
2477 2011-03-28 23:46:52 <vrs> hm, i need to find my source on the paypal thing
2478 2011-03-28 23:47:35 * Kiba finds it hard to get traffic for his site
2479 2011-03-28 23:49:37 <luke-jr> vrs: last I heard, PayPal considers Bitcoin a violation of their TOS and will freeze all funds if you are caught buying/selling them
2480 2011-03-28 23:49:49 aksoo has joined
2481 2011-03-28 23:50:40 <luke-jr> Necr0s: I broke even with a single 5850 in 2 weeks
2482 2011-03-28 23:50:42 <vrs> o_O
2483 2011-03-28 23:51:07 <Keefe> on the other hand, mndrix says that paypal is fully aware of his operation and doesn't mind as long as the fraud is kept in check
2484 2011-03-28 23:51:28 <luke-jr> mndrix = ?
2485 2011-03-28 23:51:31 <Keefe> coinpal
2486 2011-03-28 23:51:35 <luke-jr> ah
2487 2011-03-28 23:51:40 <Keefe> and coincard
2488 2011-03-28 23:52:00 <luke-jr> I wonder if MtGox is now PayPal-approved too
2489 2011-03-28 23:56:10 <midnightmagic> who's mndrix
2490 2011-03-28 23:57:05 <Keefe> midnightmagic: http://coinpal.ndrix.com/
2491 2011-03-28 23:58:00 <genjix> vrs: ?
2492 2011-03-28 23:58:07 <genjix> i dont use paypal
2493 2011-03-28 23:58:22 <midnightmagic> yeah, i was never able to get a straight answer out of anyone as to why they think bitcoins are against paypal ToS
2494 2011-03-28 23:58:41 <RBecker> luke-jr, they still don't send payments to PP, the last time I checked
2495 2011-03-28 23:58:55 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2496 2011-03-28 23:59:15 <luke-jr> RBecker: it's invitation-only right now IIRC
2497 2011-03-28 23:59:16 <genjix> luke-jr: can you turn the bitcoin project on gitorious to be owned by a group called bitcoin-devs? then add me as an admin.
2498 2011-03-28 23:59:35 <RBecker> luke-jr, paypal paments?
2499 2011-03-28 23:59:40 <luke-jr> genjix: I can, I think.
2500 2011-03-28 23:59:45 <genjix> cool