1 2011-03-29 00:00:01 <genjix> Click Teams at top
   2 2011-03-29 00:00:06 <luke-jr> genjix: but I want to encourage tcatm+jgarzik+gavin to switch to Gitorious, so I don't know if that might become a barrier?
   3 2011-03-29 00:00:08 <genjix> create new team. add me.
   4 2011-03-29 00:00:16 <luke-jr> RBecker: at least adding funds
   5 2011-03-29 00:00:21 <RBecker> ah
   6 2011-03-29 00:00:35 <RBecker> adding funds from paypal is available
   7 2011-03-29 00:00:36 <genjix> well it means that now, not only you own the project but many people.
   8 2011-03-29 00:00:54 <luke-jr> genjix: right. I mean, they might want to remove you and I from access if they take it over
   9 2011-03-29 00:01:04 <luke-jr> and the more people they have to remove, the less likely they will switch
  10 2011-03-29 00:01:35 <genjix> they're not going to switch.
  11 2011-03-29 00:02:02 <luke-jr> …
  12 2011-03-29 00:02:24 <RBecker> Now I just wish I could withdraw throughy paypal
  13 2011-03-29 00:02:36 <RBecker> through*
  14 2011-03-29 00:02:52 <genjix> RBecker: you mean biy bitcoins?
  15 2011-03-29 00:02:53 <genjix> buy
  16 2011-03-29 00:03:04 <vrs> genjix: hm, must've confused you with mndrix then
  17 2011-03-29 00:03:05 <RBecker> genjix, no
  18 2011-03-29 00:03:14 <RBecker> sell bitcoins on mtgox and then withdrawl my money to paypal
  19 2011-03-29 00:03:16 <genjix> np vrs
  20 2011-03-29 00:03:21 <genjix> ahh
  21 2011-03-29 00:03:46 * jgarzik sees little value in moving github/bitcoin/bitcoin.git elsewhere
  22 2011-03-29 00:04:48 <luke-jr> jgarzik: even when Satoshi refuses to use GitHub because they require a real name?
  23 2011-03-29 00:05:09 <midnightmagic> yeah, probably not the best idea to name the project on Gitorious "bitcoin", luke.
  24 2011-03-29 00:05:15 <doublec> luke-jr: Where have you heard that Satoshi refuses to use Github?
  25 2011-03-29 00:05:19 <midnightmagic> kinda not cool, even a little bit.
  26 2011-03-29 00:05:25 <luke-jr> doublec: I have heard that he wishes to be anonymous.
  27 2011-03-29 00:05:27 theorb has joined
  28 2011-03-29 00:05:32 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: actually, why not?
  29 2011-03-29 00:05:35 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  30 2011-03-29 00:05:37 <genjix> jgarzik: you can make one repo called bitcoin-release which only you/gavin have access to (shared) and another called bitcoin-experimental for every other branches.
  31 2011-03-29 00:05:38 <Minert> coincard's current rate is $0.7796/BTC.  I've used it to sell BC for USD to paypal and tranfered PP to bank.
  32 2011-03-29 00:05:46 <genjix> jgarzik: and under the same project.
  33 2011-03-29 00:05:50 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: because it's confusing.
  34 2011-03-29 00:05:54 <jgarzik> on the list of priorities, this ranks right around running indent(2) on the source code.
  35 2011-03-29 00:06:02 <jgarzik> i.e. too low to bother
  36 2011-03-29 00:06:09 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: the wx client calling itself 'bitcoin' is confusing
  37 2011-03-29 00:06:09 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  38 2011-03-29 00:06:13 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  39 2011-03-29 00:06:31 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: that's all under the same authorship. you are not a bitcoin developer.
  40 2011-03-29 00:06:31 <jgarzik> luke-jr: only in your alterna-world :)
  41 2011-03-29 00:06:38 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: sure I am
  42 2011-03-29 00:06:39 sabalaba has joined
  43 2011-03-29 00:06:48 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: not an official one.
  44 2011-03-29 00:06:52 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: there is no official
  45 2011-03-29 00:06:59 <Keefe> RBecker: i buy MTG$ with PayPal for just 1% fee
  46 2011-03-29 00:06:59 <luke-jr> that's the whole point of distributed
  47 2011-03-29 00:07:10 <genjix> jgarzik: no calling the software bitcoin and the protocol bitcoin and the currency bitcoin, is confusing for when i explain to people.
  48 2011-03-29 00:07:20 <genjix> the client really should be renamed...
  49 2011-03-29 00:07:26 <gavinandresen> lets rename it Bruce, avoid all the confusion
  50 2011-03-29 00:07:26 <Keefe> RBecker: so i'd give you $99 by PayPal for your $100 in MtGox
  51 2011-03-29 00:07:27 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: or, I could go around calling myself "lukejr" and telling people I've decided to stop pushing tonal.
  52 2011-03-29 00:07:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: wxBitcoin sounds appropriate imo
  53 2011-03-29 00:07:49 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: luke-jr is not distributed
  54 2011-03-29 00:07:49 <jgarzik> naming arguments (a) last the longest and (b) matter the least
  55 2011-03-29 00:07:58 <jgarzik> "call it GNU/Linux, not Linux!"
  56 2011-03-29 00:08:01 <gavinandresen> I agree with Bruce!
  57 2011-03-29 00:08:03 <jgarzik> RMS still stumps that one
  58 2011-03-29 00:08:06 <luke-jr> I agree with GNU/Linux
  59 2011-03-29 00:08:09 <RBecker> Keefe, what?
  60 2011-03-29 00:08:10 <doublec> GNU/Bitcoin!
  61 2011-03-29 00:08:11 <luke-jr> or just GNU
  62 2011-03-29 00:08:11 <osearth> but it was so new it had to work that name recognition
  63 2011-03-29 00:08:19 <luke-jr> most people don't care if it's Linux behind the scenes
  64 2011-03-29 00:08:53 <midnightmagic> kinda douchy. i hope you put tonal in it.
  65 2011-03-29 00:09:00 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: huh?
  66 2011-03-29 00:09:24 <midnightmagic> it's douchy to take up official namespace.
  67 2011-03-29 00:09:29 <luke-jr> there is no official
  68 2011-03-29 00:09:35 <Keefe> RBecker: just saying, if you want to sell BTC at MtGox and get the USD to PayPal, check out my reputation at bitcoin-otc.com and contact me about details
  69 2011-03-29 00:09:36 <luke-jr> this isn't USD
  70 2011-03-29 00:09:41 <midnightmagic> also, i hope you put tonal in your unofficial, officially-named fork so i can mock you some mroe.
  71 2011-03-29 00:09:52 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: you seem to be misunderstanding something
  72 2011-03-29 00:09:59 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: 'bitcoin' on Gitorious is not software
  73 2011-03-29 00:10:05 <luke-jr> it's a project/category
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  75 2011-03-29 00:10:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: neat lock instrumentation.  the kernel has "lockdep" (automated lock dependency and deadlock checking) in case you want to steal code.  Though I'm sure there's a boost::lockdep class buried in boost somewhere... :)
  76 2011-03-29 00:10:23 <jgarzik> boost::kitchen_sink
  77 2011-03-29 00:10:23 <luke-jr> the client I work on is named Spesmilo
  78 2011-03-29 00:10:29 <luke-jr> and does support Tonal
  79 2011-03-29 00:10:47 <genjix> phantomcircuit has a python implementation he's been working on.
  80 2011-03-29 00:10:56 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: allow me to define my terms, since you are clearly refusing to make even the smallest effort to be anything but a barrier to effective communciation. When I say the word "official" I am referring to the bitcoin client that the vast majority of the p2p bitconi network uses, and carries the authority as being the most-directly descended from Satoshi himself. Okay?
  81 2011-03-29 00:11:01 <genjix> i would prefer wallet management using SQL :)
  82 2011-03-29 00:11:17 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: that is making Satoshi into an authority
  83 2011-03-29 00:11:30 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I found an acyclic_lock class, but it required naming all the critical sections, so I hacked together some tools with duct tape and python
  84 2011-03-29 00:11:31 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: in other words, making it just another fiat currency
  85 2011-03-29 00:11:41 <jgarzik> honestly the wallet is more a 3D data structure
  86 2011-03-29 00:11:48 <jgarzik> not 2D like SQL
  87 2011-03-29 00:11:54 <midnightmagic> luke-jr: he is the name invested with more trust than any other, yes, of course. also, you are trolling. troll denied.
  88 2011-03-29 00:11:55 <genjix> SQL handles 3D fine.
  89 2011-03-29 00:11:58 * midnightmagic yawns and goes back to sleep.
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  91 2011-03-29 00:12:13 <genjix> you use pointers from one table to another.
  92 2011-03-29 00:12:19 <genjix> then JOIN as needed.
  93 2011-03-29 00:12:34 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I might teach it to dump out partial call stacks tomorrow (using __FUNCTION__) -- did you see my gist comment on the bug ?
  94 2011-03-29 00:12:37 * luke-jr wonders how many people would actually use bitcoin if it implied trust in Satoshi personally, whose identity is anonymous
  95 2011-03-29 00:13:03 Teslah has joined
  96 2011-03-29 00:13:05 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I saw the big dump of lock orderings
  97 2011-03-29 00:13:26 <jgarzik> genjix: yuck
  98 2011-03-29 00:13:41 <doublec> luke-jr: it would mean the bitcoin developers (not satoshi) control the main bitcoin client
  99 2011-03-29 00:13:46 <jgarzik> x = foo['one']['yawn']
 100 2011-03-29 00:13:55 <doublec> luke-jr: everyone else is still able to fork and have their own clients
 101 2011-03-29 00:14:05 <luke-jr> doublec: that's half my point
 102 2011-03-29 00:14:06 <doublec> luke-jr: changing the name might be nice though
 103 2011-03-29 00:14:22 <luke-jr> doublec: it's a project, not a program
 104 2011-03-29 00:14:42 <luke-jr> doublec: there are numerous programs contained in it: https://gitorious.org/bitcoin
 105 2011-03-29 00:15:26 <genjix> this problem will self resolve anyway. bittorrent is protocol/program and now nobody uses the original bittorrent anymore.
 106 2011-03-29 00:15:56 <luke-jr> yep
 107 2011-03-29 00:15:57 <genjix> it would just help when explaining to people, that wxBitcoin is one implementation of the protocol :) but w/e
 108 2011-03-29 00:16:16 * genjix will say that anyway
 109 2011-03-29 00:16:29 * luke-jr will also call it wxBitcoin
 110 2011-03-29 00:17:07 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  I'm starting to think about a .21 release, to fix the RPC hang and add -limitfreerelay.  And maybe sipa's spent per txout plus a couple other minor pulls.
 111 2011-03-29 00:17:12 <luke-jr> speaking of names, I just wrote a fancy Python module that can represent any rational number, in any radix. what should I call it? :p
 112 2011-03-29 00:17:42 <Kiba> lukejrrocks
 113 2011-03-29 00:17:45 <luke-jr> -.-
 114 2011-03-29 00:17:50 <Kiba> lol
 115 2011-03-29 00:18:00 <lfm> luke-jr whats wrong with the gmp rational numbersÉ
 116 2011-03-29 00:18:03 <genjix> luke-jr: import fractions
 117 2011-03-29 00:18:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: it's only been a month, but there are a bunch of small changes worth getting out there
 118 2011-03-29 00:18:23 <luke-jr> lfm: never used it, does it support 1⁄3 and various radices? :p
 119 2011-03-29 00:18:36 <luke-jr> genjix: that only has the fraction part
 120 2011-03-29 00:18:43 <genjix> k
 121 2011-03-29 00:18:59 <lfm> hold on brb
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 126 2011-03-29 00:19:39 <doublec> I have a half node running set to play sounds when transactions and blocks occur. The bigger the transaction, the bigger the sound.
 127 2011-03-29 00:19:40 <EPiSKiNG> got my 5970 up and running... Anyone got tips for command line options for poclbm?
 128 2011-03-29 00:19:50 <doublec> It can get pretty noisy at times but it's fun to hear the network
 129 2011-03-29 00:19:53 lfm has joined
 130 2011-03-29 00:20:25 <lfm> gmp rationals represent numbers with a numerator and a denominator
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 132 2011-03-29 00:20:45 <lfm> both are arbitrary precision
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 134 2011-03-29 00:20:52 <luke-jr> lfm: sounds like what I wrote :P
 135 2011-03-29 00:21:01 <luke-jr> although my numerators/denominators are maintained as integers
 136 2011-03-29 00:21:19 <luke-jr> plus an associated radix
 137 2011-03-29 00:21:23 <lfm> ok so yours are more limited
 138 2011-03-29 00:21:28 <luke-jr> not really
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 141 2011-03-29 00:21:47 <luke-jr> there's no need for fractions within fractions like that :p
 142 2011-03-29 00:23:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I think tcatm's stuff has settled down.  Did -daemon ever work on Windows?
 143 2011-03-29 00:23:32 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I dunno, I don't run Windows
 144 2011-03-29 00:24:11 <gavinandresen> I thought Windows had most of the posix routines (so did a version of fork())
 145 2011-03-29 00:25:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: not in the usual APIs
 146 2011-03-29 00:25:22 <jgarzik> SIGBABY
 147 2011-03-29 00:25:37 <doublec> windows doesn't have fork
 148 2011-03-29 00:25:44 <doublec> cygwin supplies an emulation of it
 149 2011-03-29 00:25:46 <doublec> mingw does not
 150 2011-03-29 00:25:51 <doublec> last I checked
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 153 2011-03-29 00:27:38 <luke-jr> I think you'd have to strip the command line option, and ShellExecute a new instance
 154 2011-03-29 00:27:41 <luke-jr> then exit the original one
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 156 2011-03-29 00:29:47 <luke-jr> genjix: btw, Python's fraction type likes to silently turn into floats :/
 157 2011-03-29 00:30:25 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 158 2011-03-29 00:31:37 <phantomcircuit> my client is actually reasonably fast now
 159 2011-03-29 00:32:02 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
 160 2011-03-29 00:33:44 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,calc 115000
 161 2011-03-29 00:33:45 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 115000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 4 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 36 minutes, and 32 seconds
 162 2011-03-29 00:33:46 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
 163 2011-03-29 00:33:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115521 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1406 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, 22 minutes, and 4 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 74770.66485611
 164 2011-03-29 00:33:56 <LobsterMan> what was the last diff?
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 166 2011-03-29 00:36:26 <midnightmagic> 76193.9710474
 167 2011-03-29 00:36:39 <aksoo> jgarzik: are you talking about the bitcoin client? -daemon works for me on windows
 168 2011-03-29 00:37:39 <Keefe> EPiSKiNG: i like: -f1 -r60 --verbose
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 170 2011-03-29 00:40:06 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 171 2011-03-29 00:40:54 <BurtyB> in Cosm we used CreateProcess instead of fork for windows
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 174 2011-03-29 00:42:26 <aksoo> jgarzik: oops, nevermind.. doesn't work. sorry.
 175 2011-03-29 00:43:51 <doublec> have a look at the source to hstart if you want to see how to spawn console apps without any windows
 176 2011-03-29 00:43:58 <doublec> http://www.ntwind.com/software/utilities/hstart.html
 177 2011-03-29 00:44:54 <LobsterMan> interesting
 178 2011-03-29 00:44:57 <LobsterMan> never heard of hstart
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 181 2011-03-29 00:49:42 <frewsxcv> does anyone know if the people who developed bitcoin charts or bitcoin market idle in irc?
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 184 2011-03-29 00:52:00 <[Tycho]> Yes, they do.
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 187 2011-03-29 00:58:47 <jgarzik> the main point is not breaking Windows functionality that has existed in previous versions
 188 2011-03-29 00:58:59 <jgarzik> avoiding regressions is more important than almost anything else
 189 2011-03-29 00:59:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it doesn't sound like -daemon ever worked in Windows
 190 2011-03-29 00:59:30 <luke-jr> someone using Windows can just prepend the command line with 'start ' to get the same effect, also
 191 2011-03-29 00:59:40 <jgarzik> then .21 should be ok
 192 2011-03-29 01:00:13 <luke-jr> so long as the -daemon code has an #ifdef around it so it compiles, I would think so
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 205 2011-03-29 01:23:20 <tcatm> frewsxcv: I developed bitcoin charts
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 212 2011-03-29 01:25:44 <frewsxcv> tcatm: ping
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 214 2011-03-29 01:26:11 <tcatm> pong
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 216 2011-03-29 01:26:39 <frewsxcv> tcatm: i'm developing a firefox extension that shows current bc prices in the addons bar
 217 2011-03-29 01:26:52 <frewsxcv> tcatm: just curious if you're either interested in development or have any ideas
 218 2011-03-29 01:27:01 <frewsxcv> right now it only shows mtgox and is very featureless
 219 2011-03-29 01:27:52 <tcatm> there's an api at bitcoincharts that you can query for all markets
 220 2011-03-29 01:28:24 <frewsxcv> yeah i saw, considering using it
 221 2011-03-29 01:28:36 <doublec> 3 blocks found in 3 minutes. fast.
 222 2011-03-29 01:28:55 <frewsxcv> you don't have something in the api that shows the average price do you? tcatm
 223 2011-03-29 01:28:58 <Necr0s> I would suggest a Dashboard widget that does the same thing.
 224 2011-03-29 01:29:12 <Necr0s> OS X Dashboard
 225 2011-03-29 01:29:18 <tcatm> what would the average price be?
 226 2011-03-29 01:29:30 <Necr0s> Also, the equivalent for Windows.
 227 2011-03-29 01:29:35 <Necr0s> ...Is it a "gadget" there?
 228 2011-03-29 01:29:39 <frewsxcv> tcatm: maybe a combination of all the USD prices averaged?
 229 2011-03-29 01:29:45 <frewsxcv> Necr0s: why not a browser plugin?
 230 2011-03-29 01:29:54 * frewsxcv is definitely not making it platform specific
 231 2011-03-29 01:30:08 <Necr0s> No reason not I guess.
 232 2011-03-29 01:30:21 <Necr0s> TO me I guess it feels like more the sort of thing that would belong in Dashboard.
 233 2011-03-29 01:31:05 <frewsxcv> last i checked OS widgets are dead
 234 2011-03-29 01:31:23 <tcatm> frewsxcv: nope. I could do that, but currently it's not supported.
 235 2011-03-29 01:31:43 <Necr0s> Could be true on Windows.
 236 2011-03-29 01:31:49 <Necr0s> I must say I've never used any.
 237 2011-03-29 01:31:56 <Necr0s> But I use Dashboard a good bit.
 238 2011-03-29 01:32:48 <frewsxcv> tcatm: well it's completely up to you. i think it's a valuable piece of api that could be beneficial to developers instead of having to either grab all the prices
 239 2011-03-29 01:33:41 <tcatm> I could expose the market's currency so you could easily average/group by currency.
 240 2011-03-29 01:34:43 <frewsxcv> that'd be awesome
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 243 2011-03-29 01:40:16 <luke-jr> frewsxcv: I think OSX widgets work in KDE too
 244 2011-03-29 01:40:36 <luke-jr> and while I've never messed with the dashboard stuff, I think there's some compatibility with the docks
 245 2011-03-29 01:41:35 jasonphd has joined
 246 2011-03-29 01:41:56 <frewsxcv> <controversialStatement>the web is the future, building apps specifically for a certain platform is dead</controversialStatement>
 247 2011-03-29 01:42:20 CPU has joined
 248 2011-03-29 01:44:17 <luke-jr> frewsxcv: the web is dead, building apps specifically for a certain platform is dead.
 249 2011-03-29 01:44:26 <luke-jr> "the web" is a certain platform
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 251 2011-03-29 01:44:50 <frewsxcv> luke-jr: i meant OS platform
 252 2011-03-29 01:44:51 <luke-jr> "firefox" is even MORE specific
 253 2011-03-29 01:45:05 <luke-jr> frewsxcv: better an "OS platform" than "web platform"
 254 2011-03-29 01:45:42 <luke-jr> frewsxcv: ie, free Qt code rather than you-don't-even-get-the-binary-proprietary webapp
 255 2011-03-29 01:45:56 <luke-jr> and Qt apps run on basically every OS
 256 2011-03-29 01:46:05 jasonphd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 257 2011-03-29 01:46:14 <midnightmagic> QT can be extremely difficult to develop with.
 258 2011-03-29 01:46:23 <luke-jr> nonsense
 259 2011-03-29 01:46:28 <frewsxcv> agreed, gtk+ is plenty worse though
 260 2011-03-29 01:46:50 <doublec> Qt is a pain to use from other languages due to the C++ abi
 261 2011-03-29 01:46:52 <frewsxcv> QT is plenty more bulky than javascript
 262 2011-03-29 01:47:02 <midnightmagic> not nonsense. my employer develops major apps with qt. it is NOT designed to easily scale up.
 263 2011-03-29 01:47:06 <luke-jr> doublec: Qt is a language itself.
 264 2011-03-29 01:47:09 <luke-jr> doublec: and PySide works fine.
 265 2011-03-29 01:47:22 <luke-jr> frewsxcv: but Qt is plenty *better* than "javascript"
 266 2011-03-29 01:47:52 * frewsxcv strongly disagrees
 267 2011-03-29 01:48:01 <doublec> that's like saying 'Boost is better than javascript'. You can't compare a framework to a language.
 268 2011-03-29 01:48:13 <luke-jr> doublec: Qt and "javascript" are both languages.
 269 2011-03-29 01:48:21 <frewsxcv> doublec: luke-jr considers qt a language
 270 2011-03-29 01:48:24 jasonphd has joined
 271 2011-03-29 01:48:38 <dirtyfilthy> no one develops for specific browsers anymore, you just use an abstraction like jquery that handles all the browser specific stuff
 272 2011-03-29 01:48:45 <doublec> Ah, I forgot luke-jr has a unique outlook on life
 273 2011-03-29 01:48:52 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: even worse
 274 2011-03-29 01:49:02 <dirtyfilthy> luke-jr: how so?
 275 2011-03-29 01:49:08 <luke-jr> doublec: if you don't consider Qt a language, you cannot consider C++ a language without being inconsistent
 276 2011-03-29 01:49:25 <doublec> that makes no sense
 277 2011-03-29 01:49:32 <frewsxcv> dirtyfilthy: for browser addons or just web apps?
 278 2011-03-29 01:49:43 <frewsxcv> luke-jr: that really does make no sense
 279 2011-03-29 01:49:43 <luke-jr> doublec: I'll rephrase: Qt is as different from C++, as C++ is different from C
 280 2011-03-29 01:49:50 <frewsxcv> LOL
 281 2011-03-29 01:50:05 <dirtyfilthy> web apps, though for browser addons you've just got netscape interface and ie interface
 282 2011-03-29 01:50:06 <doublec> I'll rephrase: The makes sense only in your bizarro world
 283 2011-03-29 01:50:29 <luke-jr> doublec: that's called denial, because you have no rational argument
 284 2011-03-29 01:50:31 <frewsxcv> that's like comparing  solar power to nuclear power to a toaster
 285 2011-03-29 01:50:33 <doublec> or maybe it only doesn't make sense in my bizarro world
 286 2011-03-29 01:50:52 <doublec> it's impossible to rationally argue with you luke-jr
 287 2011-03-29 01:50:55 <luke-jr> Qt has new syntax, and completely replaces the standard library.
 288 2011-03-29 01:51:02 <luke-jr> C++ has new syntax, and completely replaces the standard library.
 289 2011-03-29 01:51:07 <luke-jr> same changes.
 290 2011-03-29 01:51:32 <frewsxcv> dirtyfilthy: oh for web apps i can understand, but for a lot people, they want information living in the addons area/bar
 291 2011-03-29 01:51:43 <jasonphd> for pool servers, what methods are used to prevent cheating in the form of submitting random data as the solution?  typically, the result being submitted to a pool will not be the solution to the block, but it still earns a "share".  what prevents a user from submitting something totally off the wall every few seconds and earning a share?  what methods can be used to make sure their submissions are legit?
 292 2011-03-29 01:51:59 <tcatm> frewsxcv: currency field added (and I also changed all urls)
 293 2011-03-29 01:52:02 <doublec> jasonphd: usually they are solving at a lower difficulty level (like 1)
 294 2011-03-29 01:52:05 <frewsxcv> doublec: it's kind of hard discussing with someone who believes qt is a language
 295 2011-03-29 01:52:08 <doublec> so that has to be correct
 296 2011-03-29 01:52:27 <doublec> frewsxcv: agreed
 297 2011-03-29 01:53:01 <jasonphd> doublec: right, but the pool is assuming that eventually when a client is solving with a difficulty of 1, that their submission will also be the answer to the block at the higher difficulty level, correct?
 298 2011-03-29 01:53:05 CyanDynamo has joined
 299 2011-03-29 01:53:12 <frewsxcv> tcatm: down? http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/markets.json
 300 2011-03-29 01:53:27 <midnightmagic> sieze upon one single similarity and claim that if that similarity does not prove the whole, then a completely other set which shares that form of similarity must therefore NOT be analogous either.
 301 2011-03-29 01:53:30 <Necr0s> seti@home solves this problem by having each block cmputed twice, by two different clients.
 302 2011-03-29 01:53:38 <midnightmagic> gimme a break. where did you learn logic, gradeschool?
 303 2011-03-29 01:53:46 <Necr0s> Obviously this solution will not work well for mining pools.
 304 2011-03-29 01:53:54 <doublec> jasonphd: they count the solved at difficulty 1 as a share. It must solve that difficulty correct which is how they are known to not be cheating.
 305 2011-03-29 01:54:11 <doublec> jasonphd: and if that solution also sovles the actual difficulty then the block is done
 306 2011-03-29 01:54:43 <tcatm> frewsxcv: sorry, forgot to update the about-page. new url is http://bitcoincharts.com/t/markets.json
 307 2011-03-29 01:54:47 <jasonphd> what's the formula to know if the submitted solution is valid for a difficulty of 1?
 308 2011-03-29 01:56:10 <frewsxcv> tcatm: i can haz null? http://json-indent.appspot.com/indent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbitcoincharts.com%2Ft%2Fmarkets.json
 309 2011-03-29 01:56:26 <frewsxcv> tcatm: for the record, if you care https://github.com/frewsxcv/Bitcoin-Prices
 310 2011-03-29 01:56:28 <dirtyfilthy> jasonphd: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
 311 2011-03-29 01:57:30 <tcatm> frewsxcv: yep, values can be null (e.g. if there's no ask/bid)
 312 2011-03-29 01:58:29 <tcatm> oh you mean the null at the end
 313 2011-03-29 01:59:11 <SykeP> lol, QT is not a language.
 314 2011-03-29 01:59:25 osearth_ has joined
 315 2011-03-29 02:00:00 <SykeP> it does have some special tools, but that in no way makes it a language
 316 2011-03-29 02:00:41 <tcatm> frewsxcv: fixed
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 318 2011-03-29 02:03:37 <jasonphd> dirtyfilthy: thanks, but i'm having a difficult time finding a formula on that page that says given x problem and y solution with z difficulty determine if result is valid or not
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 322 2011-03-29 02:05:21 <dirtyfilthy> take block header, hash, is hash less than target, if not, increase nonce, rinse, repeat
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 334 2011-03-29 02:32:00 <jasonphd> dirtyfilthy: so if the client was given a difficulty of 1 (ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000), then their submitted data should be sha256 hashed and then checked to make sure that hashed value is less than 00000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF?   if the hashed submitted value is less than 00000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF, then it should be c
 335 2011-03-29 02:32:43 <dirtyfilthy> yep
 336 2011-03-29 02:33:15 <jasonphd> dirtyfilthy: thanks.  and i got the reversing of the 0's and F's correct?
 337 2011-03-29 02:33:59 <dirtyfilthy> i think you don't need to reverse the difficulty in the first place, it's actually the hash that's reversed
 338 2011-03-29 02:34:17 <dirtyfilthy> (treated as small endian)
 339 2011-03-29 02:35:30 <luke-jr> SykeP: then C++ is not a language either
 340 2011-03-29 02:38:02 <dirtyfilthy> C++ is an abomination
 341 2011-03-29 02:38:10 <luke-jr> dirtyfilthy: that is beside the point
 342 2011-03-29 02:39:42 hozer has left ()
 343 2011-03-29 02:39:52 <jasonphd> luke-jr: so it is ok to do it the way i have it?
 344 2011-03-29 02:39:57 ArtForz has joined
 345 2011-03-29 02:40:05 <luke-jr> jasonphd: …
 346 2011-03-29 02:40:30 <jasonphd> sorry, wrong thread
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 349 2011-03-29 02:44:52 <SykeP> QT is an application framework that adds some language extensions essentially through macros.
 350 2011-03-29 02:45:37 <jasonphd> dirtyfilthy: it seems like i'm still over simplifying it... is there a wiki page that gives more detail? it seems like if you only need to submit a result that hashes to less than a static value, then you could cache accepted values on the client side, wait for the next round/block on the pool server and submit all of your old answers all over again quickly getting "credits" for doing 0 work during that round.... i think i'm pret
 351 2011-03-29 02:45:41 <luke-jr> SykeP: same for C++
 352 2011-03-29 02:46:24 <dirtyfilthy> the solution has to be for the right block
 353 2011-03-29 02:46:32 <dirtyfilthy> block header i mean
 354 2011-03-29 02:46:33 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 355 2011-03-29 02:46:46 <dirtyfilthy> the pool won't just accept any only solution to any old block header
 356 2011-03-29 02:46:59 <jgarzik> jasonphd: the next block implies a new previous-hash field, which implies hashing a new block header
 357 2011-03-29 02:47:18 <jgarzik> jasonphd: hence "block chain", where each block depends on the previous block's hash, which is not known ahead of time
 358 2011-03-29 02:48:18 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 359 2011-03-29 02:49:21 <SykeP> luke-jr, not even close. C++ is drastically different than C.
 360 2011-03-29 02:49:27 <jasonphd> jgarzik: your "checkwork" function appears to take the submitted data, hash it, and then compare it to "TARGET" (a static variable that never changes between rounds), am i following that correctly?
 361 2011-03-29 02:49:34 <luke-jr> SykeP: no moreso than Qt is to C++
 362 2011-03-29 02:52:08 <SykeP> QT is compiled by a C++ compiler.
 363 2011-03-29 02:52:29 lfm has joined
 364 2011-03-29 02:52:31 <luke-jr> after pre-processing by MOC
 365 2011-03-29 02:52:42 <luke-jr> just like C++ was originally pre-processed and compiled by a C compiler
 366 2011-03-29 02:53:26 tower has joined
 367 2011-03-29 02:54:58 <SykeP> just because I throw a few macros into my application doesn't mean I've created a new language.
 368 2011-03-29 02:56:08 <luke-jr> SykeP: I didn't say it does.
 369 2011-03-29 02:56:27 <luke-jr> but when you write a custom pre-processor, and replace the entire standard library, you have.
 370 2011-03-29 02:56:34 <SykeP> and because c is such a low language, anything can basically be preprocessed into be compiled by it
 371 2011-03-29 02:57:17 prax has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 372 2011-03-29 02:57:39 <jgarzik> jasonphd: correct
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 384 2011-03-29 03:22:29 <jgarzik> gitorious is so useless
 385 2011-03-29 03:22:39 <jgarzik> "srepmub pushed 1 commit to shedskin/mainline:master
 386 2011-03-29 03:22:39 <jgarzik> master changed from 21c57b4 to 1dcb17a"
 387 2011-03-29 03:22:44 <[Tycho]> Hello.
 388 2011-03-29 03:22:55 <jgarzik> how about the one-line summary attached to the git commit?
 389 2011-03-29 03:24:29 <tcatm> click on "1 commit"
 390 2011-03-29 03:26:27 EPiSKiNG has joined
 391 2011-03-29 03:27:18 <EPiSKiNG> how do i mine for my own block vs going for a pool?
 392 2011-03-29 03:27:21 <luke-jr> lol
 393 2011-03-29 03:27:43 malfy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 394 2011-03-29 03:28:27 DrQ has joined
 395 2011-03-29 03:28:35 malfy has joined
 396 2011-03-29 03:28:41 <jasonphd> EPiSKiNG: open the Bitcoin gui, click Settings, Generate Coins.... wait a year.
 397 2011-03-29 03:28:43 <EPiSKiNG> sorry... that was a terrible question to ask in a chat
 398 2011-03-29 03:28:53 <EPiSKiNG> jasonphd: nice
 399 2011-03-29 03:29:14 <[Tycho]> EPiSKiNG, how many GH/s do you have ?
 400 2011-03-29 03:29:25 <EPiSKiNG> why do you want to know?
 401 2011-03-29 03:29:39 <EPiSKiNG> ;-)
 402 2011-03-29 03:29:50 <EPiSKiNG> 1.0
 403 2011-03-29 03:29:50 <doublec> or run one of the GPU mining clients and point it to your local bitcoin instance instead of apool
 404 2011-03-29 03:29:55 synisma has joined
 405 2011-03-29 03:30:33 <EPiSKiNG> doublec: create user in solo utilites, then set to solo server?
 406 2011-03-29 03:31:10 <doublec> EPiSKiNG: I don't know what 'solo' means in that context
 407 2011-03-29 03:31:33 <validus> sounds like the poclbm gui
 408 2011-03-29 03:31:42 <doublec> EPiSKiNG: you can mine locally by running bitcoin with '-server' (or run bitcoind) and run one of the standalone miners (like poclbm)
 409 2011-03-29 03:31:45 <doublec> ah ok
 410 2011-03-29 03:31:52 <validus> i think it sets itself up to make a conf file and start bitcoin with the -server option
 411 2011-03-29 03:32:02 <doublec> ok, I've not used it
 412 2011-03-29 03:32:06 <validus> i've never ran that part but i remember seeing it in there
 413 2011-03-29 03:32:13 <yebyen> EPiSKiNG: how does 1.0gh work for you?
 414 2011-03-29 03:32:19 <yebyen> are you producing coins
 415 2011-03-29 03:32:46 <yebyen> i have a test network that has a total of 1MH if i turn all of the computers on at once :)
 416 2011-03-29 03:33:36 <EPiSKiNG> i did .5 btc in about an hour or os
 417 2011-03-29 03:33:38 <EPiSKiNG> so
 418 2011-03-29 03:33:48 <yebyen> it generates coins with addresses that start with "2G"
 419 2011-03-29 03:34:01 <yebyen> how do you get .5BTC? i thought they came as 50 :x
 420 2011-03-29 03:34:04 <yebyen> are you on a farm?
 421 2011-03-29 03:34:09 <yebyen> i haven't been reading the news at all
 422 2011-03-29 03:34:31 <yebyen> clearly
 423 2011-03-29 03:35:22 jasonphd has quit ()
 424 2011-03-29 03:35:38 <EPiSKiNG> pool
 425 2011-03-29 03:35:44 <yebyen> ah
 426 2011-03-29 03:36:11 <yebyen> my client is 0.3.11 era
 427 2011-03-29 03:36:45 <lfm> time to upgrade\
 428 2011-03-29 03:37:07 <yebyen> and how to forward-port the break from trunk?
 429 2011-03-29 03:37:13 <kupo> yebyen: wow
 430 2011-03-29 03:37:14 <yebyen> i may have already lost the changes :x
 431 2011-03-29 03:37:32 <kupo> lfm: can you explain the new transactin fees?
 432 2011-03-29 03:38:05 <yebyen> as it stands, I don't have a FreeBSD version... I think I did though
 433 2011-03-29 03:38:28 <jgarzik> I <heart> Puppet
 434 2011-03-29 03:38:42 <Keefe> what am i doing wrong here?:
 435 2011-03-29 03:38:42 <Keefe> bitcoin/bitcoind listreceivedbyaddress includeempty=true
 436 2011-03-29 03:38:43 <Keefe> error: type mismatch
 437 2011-03-29 03:39:00 <Keefe> ignore the "bitcoin/" part
 438 2011-03-29 03:39:01 <jgarzik> Keefe: remove "includeempty="
 439 2011-03-29 03:39:21 <jgarzik> Keefe: bitcoin's JSON command arguments are not key=value, but a list of parameters.
 440 2011-03-29 03:39:35 <jgarzik> Keefe: the 'includeempty=' part is implicit in its position in the parameter list
 441 2011-03-29 03:39:42 <Keefe> i see now
 442 2011-03-29 03:39:58 <Keefe> so if i want to specify includeempty i have to also specify minconf
 443 2011-03-29 03:40:03 <Keefe> no big deal
 444 2011-03-29 03:40:09 <Keefe> thx
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 467 2011-03-29 04:11:27 <luke-jr> yebyen: can I buy some of your bitcoin dirt cheap? XD
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 484 2011-03-29 04:32:45 <mizerydearia> <sgornick> BTW, I think bitcoin's mascot has been found: http://ircquotes.witcoin.com/p/718/#r-1150
 485 2011-03-29 04:36:47 * jgarzik is officially unlucky
 486 2011-03-29 04:37:19 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 487 2011-03-29 04:37:21 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115549 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1378 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 54 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75218.51100719
 488 2011-03-29 04:37:38 <JFK911> haha difficulty estimate
 489 2011-03-29 04:37:45 <JFK911> haven't we just been there
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 495 2011-03-29 04:51:36 <da2ce7> I need to send a video to a friend... and yousendit sucks..
 496 2011-03-29 04:52:05 <da2ce7> any one have a ftp server I can borrow for 500MB
 497 2011-03-29 04:52:15 * da2ce7 would normaly make a torrent.
 498 2011-03-29 04:52:52 <mizerydearia> da2ce7, megaupload.com ?
 499 2011-03-29 04:53:07 <mizerydearia> also check out the providers listed as results at filestube.com
 500 2011-03-29 04:55:12 <da2ce7> *me will use my skydrive!
 501 2011-03-29 04:56:07 <da2ce7> Gets 2gb freeeeee
 502 2011-03-29 04:58:17 <da2ce7> :( limited to 50mb chunks
 503 2011-03-29 04:59:28 <doublec> da2ce7: maybe sendoid.com will work
 504 2011-03-29 05:00:12 * da2ce7 sticks file in encripted 7zip and makes a torrent.
 505 2011-03-29 05:00:14 <da2ce7> :P
 506 2011-03-29 05:00:15 <Necr0s> sendx0r.com
 507 2011-03-29 05:00:28 <Necr0s> (not rly)
 508 2011-03-29 05:06:25 <da2ce7> we need a bitcoin yousendit clone.
 509 2011-03-29 05:06:27 <da2ce7> :O
 510 2011-03-29 05:06:46 <da2ce7> that would be super userfull.
 511 2011-03-29 05:06:46 <da2ce7> *usefull
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 522 2011-03-29 05:48:04 <jgarzik> man, the compiler really spews when you use -Wall on the bitcoin source code
 523 2011-03-29 05:51:15 <roconnor> if I connect to a (test) client and send verack followed by addr, should I expect to get a response?
 524 2011-03-29 05:52:32 <roconnor> I mean verack followed by getaddr
 525 2011-03-29 05:52:41 <tcatm> iirc yes
 526 2011-03-29 05:52:49 <roconnor> hmm
 527 2011-03-29 05:53:38 gjs278 has joined
 528 2011-03-29 05:53:50 <tcatm> I'll try it.
 529 2011-03-29 05:54:20 <gjs278> my 5870 on diablo miner linux is going ridiculously slow... like 270 instead of poclbm's 350
 530 2011-03-29 05:54:52 frewsxcv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 531 2011-03-29 05:55:22 <SykeP> you need the right driver version, right sdk version, and -f 1 parameter for full speed
 532 2011-03-29 05:55:33 <gjs278> I'm on sdk 2.2
 533 2011-03-29 05:55:49 <tcatm> roconnor: yep, works
 534 2011-03-29 05:55:49 <gjs278> 11.2 for the ati driver
 535 2011-03-29 05:56:02 <SykeP> ew driver
 536 2011-03-29 05:56:16 <gjs278> what should I shoot for
 537 2011-03-29 05:57:30 dissipate has joined
 538 2011-03-29 05:57:37 <SykeP> I can't remember, should be 10.11 or 10.12
 539 2011-03-29 05:57:46 <gjs278> thanks I'll try it out
 540 2011-03-29 05:57:56 <roconnor> tcatm: thanks.  I must be doing something wrong.
 541 2011-03-29 05:58:03 <SykeP> along with sdk 2.1
 542 2011-03-29 05:58:08 <gjs278> just got 2.1
 543 2011-03-29 05:58:23 <gjs278> grabbing 10.11 now
 544 2011-03-29 05:58:23 <SykeP> 350 mhps sounds fast, how overclocked?
 545 2011-03-29 05:58:30 <gjs278> 925
 546 2011-03-29 05:58:45 <gjs278> 950 can get 360 but it crashes on me quite a bit
 547 2011-03-29 06:00:39 <gjs278> 10.11 failed to compile but 10.12 did it
 548 2011-03-29 06:00:43 <gjs278> restarting X, brb
 549 2011-03-29 06:00:56 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 550 2011-03-29 06:02:54 gjs278 has joined
 551 2011-03-29 06:03:31 <gjs278> hmm
 552 2011-03-29 06:03:39 <gjs278> I saw one 316 and then it went down to 280
 553 2011-03-29 06:04:32 <SykeP> give diablo 15 minutes to smooth out
 554 2011-03-29 06:05:06 <gjs278> alright
 555 2011-03-29 06:05:15 <gjs278> worksize? I went with 64 for now
 556 2011-03-29 06:05:25 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 557 2011-03-29 06:06:13 <SykeP> 64 is pretty much perfect
 558 2011-03-29 06:06:19 <roconnor> tcatm: can I ask which IP address / port you used?
 559 2011-03-29 06:06:37 <tcatm> 127.0.0.1:8333
 560 2011-03-29 06:06:42 <roconnor> heh
 561 2011-03-29 06:06:48 <roconnor> that's a good idea
 562 2011-03-29 06:07:06 <tcatm> 173.255.224.227:8333 works, too
 563 2011-03-29 06:07:34 <roconnor> oh, that isn't on the test network
 564 2011-03-29 06:08:16 <roconnor> anyhow, localhost is fine
 565 2011-03-29 06:08:25 <roconnor> I'll just run bitcoind -testnet
 566 2011-03-29 06:08:40 <tcatm> are you writing a client?
 567 2011-03-29 06:09:27 <roconnor> arguably
 568 2011-03-29 06:09:41 <roconnor> mostly I wanted to investigate in detail how bitcoin functions
 569 2011-03-29 06:10:18 <roconnor> the best way is to write some sort of client
 570 2011-03-29 06:10:54 <tcatm> yep
 571 2011-03-29 06:11:47 <tcatm> a good start is to connect to one node ask for the blockchain and then listen for transactions and verify their inputs
 572 2011-03-29 06:12:11 <roconnor> ya, I wasn't sure waht to say my initial hash is since I don't know any
 573 2011-03-29 06:12:21 <roconnor> I thought getaddr would be simpler :)
 574 2011-03-29 06:13:20 <tcatm> initial hash for getblocks?
 575 2011-03-29 06:13:29 <roconnor> ya
 576 2011-03-29 06:13:33 <roconnor> I think
 577 2011-03-29 06:13:33 <tcatm> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
 578 2011-03-29 06:13:51 <tcatm> or for testnet: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/00000007199508e34a9ff81e6ec0c477a4cccff2a4767a8eee39c11db367b008
 579 2011-03-29 06:14:06 <roconnor> this is the so called genesis block?
 580 2011-03-29 06:14:07 <lfm> hash of genisis bloxk?
 581 2011-03-29 06:14:15 <tcatm> yep
 582 2011-03-29 06:14:16 <roconnor> it should be hard coded in the client I suppose
 583 2011-03-29 06:14:24 <lfm> ya
 584 2011-03-29 06:14:33 <lfm> or in a config file
 585 2011-03-29 06:14:38 <roconnor> right
 586 2011-03-29 06:14:43 <phantomcircuit> it is hard coded iirc
 587 2011-03-29 06:14:47 <phantomcircuit> at least it is in mine
 588 2011-03-29 06:14:48 <roconnor> I guess I can try that
 589 2011-03-29 06:14:59 <roconnor> though getaddr ought to work
 590 2011-03-29 06:15:07 <lfm> testnet changes periodiclly so a config file would make sense
 591 2011-03-29 06:15:15 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, http://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt
 592 2011-03-29 06:15:20 <phantomcircuit> checkout the sqlalchemy branch
 593 2011-03-29 06:15:25 <phantomcircuit> (it mostly works)
 594 2011-03-29 06:15:36 <tcatm> try getblocks([0x000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f], hashstop=0)
 595 2011-03-29 06:15:42 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: python implementation?
 596 2011-03-29 06:15:46 <tcatm> it should return lots of invs
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 598 2011-03-29 06:15:54 <roconnor> okay
 599 2011-03-29 06:16:05 <roconnor> I need a few minutes to code up that command
 600 2011-03-29 06:16:06 <roconnor> :)
 601 2011-03-29 06:16:15 <tcatm> which language?
 602 2011-03-29 06:16:19 <roconnor> haskell
 603 2011-03-29 06:16:30 <grbgout> oooh, fun :D
 604 2011-03-29 06:16:31 <phantomcircuit> lol
 605 2011-03-29 06:16:35 <grbgout> haskell is on my to-learn list.
 606 2011-03-29 06:16:38 <tcatm> cool
 607 2011-03-29 06:16:40 <roconnor> :D
 608 2011-03-29 06:16:59 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 609 2011-03-29 06:17:03 <grbgout> roconnor: how portable is the code across OSs?
 610 2011-03-29 06:17:22 <roconnor> grbgout: should be very portable
 611 2011-03-29 06:17:26 <grbgout> cool
 612 2011-03-29 06:17:36 <roconnor> well, unless you try not to be
 613 2011-03-29 06:17:41 <grbgout> :)
 614 2011-03-29 06:18:10 <roconnor> all my serialization is done explicitly so it doesn't depend on the native endieness
 615 2011-03-29 06:18:35 <roconnor> (btw, the all the little endieness is slightly annoying :D )
 616 2011-03-29 06:19:37 <tcatm> once you've written a complete lowlevel lib you won't have to care about it anymore :)
 617 2011-03-29 06:19:40 <lfm> roconnor: ya, its much worse in the bitcoin sources such that bigendian hosts are almost ruled out
 618 2011-03-29 06:20:09 <grbgout> hmm, I have an onboard gpu as well as a gpu plugged into PCIe, should I be able to access the onboard GPU for number crunching?  I see the sound devices for it available, but I've never tried to do so before, so I dunno....
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 620 2011-03-29 06:20:51 <lfm> grbgout: what model is it?
 621 2011-03-29 06:20:59 <grondilu> rates are published JSON style on http://bitcoincharts.com/t/markets.json.  How could I parse that without using javascript?
 622 2011-03-29 06:21:12 <grbgout> What model gpu?  It's a clunky HD4200, only 40 SP :(
 623 2011-03-29 06:21:31 <lfm> ya 4200s are not supported by opencl
 624 2011-03-29 06:21:33 <forrestv> grondilu, with any json parsing lib ...
 625 2011-03-29 06:22:11 <grbgout> lfm: oh, really? oh well. won't bother then, but if I did have an onboard CL capable GPU, should I be able to access it whilst a PCIe gpu is plugged in?
 626 2011-03-29 06:22:21 <grondilu> yeah I know but I need to do that on my webserver and I can't install whatever I want  :(
 627 2011-03-29 06:22:41 <lfm> grbgout: if it suppoerted opencl then I think so
 628 2011-03-29 06:22:49 <tcatm> grondilu: webserver = php only?
 629 2011-03-29 06:22:53 <grbgout> k
 630 2011-03-29 06:23:43 <grondilu> ah nevermind I guess I have to find out what language I could use on my webserver.  So far I was doing only bash CGI.
 631 2011-03-29 06:24:11 <grbgout> grondilu: syscalls and sockets, then? :)
 632 2011-03-29 06:24:30 <tcatm> grondilu: https://github.com/micha/jsawk/blob/master/jsawk
 633 2011-03-29 06:24:34 <grbgout> grondilu: as I understand it, the rpc relies on an http spec, or something.
 634 2011-03-29 06:25:03 <grbgout> so, presumably, you can connect with telnet and retreive information.  With that in mind, you should be able to mock something up in bash if you /really/ wanted/had to.
 635 2011-03-29 06:25:21 <lfm> grondilu: cgi can be any language really
 636 2011-03-29 06:25:36 <grondilu> oh there is a json module in the python installation on my web server
 637 2011-03-29 06:25:49 <grbgout> grondilu: how convenient!
 638 2011-03-29 06:25:55 <grondilu> I guess I could use that :)
 639 2011-03-29 06:26:02 <grbgout> I take it you don't have physical access to your web server.
 640 2011-03-29 06:26:26 <grbgout> s/physical access/administrative privilages/ (so)
 641 2011-03-29 06:26:29 <grbgout> *sp
 642 2011-03-29 06:26:30 <grbgout> >_<
 643 2011-03-29 06:26:43 <tcatm> grondilu: should work great. the same json libs generates markets.json :)
 644 2011-03-29 06:30:10 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
 645 2011-03-29 06:36:25 <roconnor> tcatm: still no response.  I must be not be using my network library properly or something
 646 2011-03-29 06:40:24 Erazmus has joined
 647 2011-03-29 06:42:15 <Necr0s> Sniff and see what's hitting the wire, if anything.
 648 2011-03-29 06:42:40 LtBrenton_ has joined
 649 2011-03-29 06:42:52 <roconnor> I ran netcat to listen port 18333 and my commands are getting to it.
 650 2011-03-29 06:42:55 <roconnor> strange
 651 2011-03-29 06:43:08 <roconnor> I'm sure it will be something silly once I figure it out
 652 2011-03-29 06:43:14 <Necr0s> tcpdump
 653 2011-03-29 06:43:32 <Necr0s> It almost always is something silly.
 654 2011-03-29 06:44:16 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
 655 2011-03-29 06:44:30 <Necr0s> Watch the server expect \r\n and you're sending \n or something.
 656 2011-03-29 06:44:32 LtBrenton has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 657 2011-03-29 06:44:43 <roconnor> AFAIK this protocol is purely binary
 658 2011-03-29 06:45:28 <jgarzik> roconnor: mostly
 659 2011-03-29 06:46:02 <phantomcircuit> ironically the only thing that's not are the commands themselves
 660 2011-03-29 06:46:04 <phantomcircuit> lets see
 661 2011-03-29 06:46:10 <phantomcircuit> there's fixed length strings
 662 2011-03-29 06:46:15 <phantomcircuit> strings with length
 663 2011-03-29 06:46:22 <phantomcircuit> and null terminated strings
 664 2011-03-29 06:46:26 <phantomcircuit> all in the same protocol
 665 2011-03-29 06:46:27 <phantomcircuit> >.>
 666 2011-03-29 06:46:36 <grbgout> good times :)
 667 2011-03-29 06:46:37 <Necr0s> lolz
 668 2011-03-29 06:46:39 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 669 2011-03-29 06:47:00 <roconnor> phantomcircuit: I find it hard to believe, but I wish it was xml :D
 670 2011-03-29 06:47:13 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, no you dont
 671 2011-03-29 06:47:19 <roconnor> oh maybe :D
 672 2011-03-29 06:47:19 <phantomcircuit> well
 673 2011-03-29 06:47:20 <phantomcircuit> yes you do
 674 2011-03-29 06:47:27 <grbgout> all that bloat?
 675 2011-03-29 06:47:28 <phantomcircuit> it's not *that* hard
 676 2011-03-29 06:47:29 <grbgout> :(
 677 2011-03-29 06:47:31 <phantomcircuit> but yes it's dumb
 678 2011-03-29 06:47:57 <Necr0s> gzipped xml
 679 2011-03-29 06:48:28 <phantomcircuit> Necr0s, rofl no
 680 2011-03-29 06:50:38 FabianB has joined
 681 2011-03-29 07:01:58 <roconnor> oh, am I supposed to send my version number?
 682 2011-03-29 07:04:10 larsivi has joined
 683 2011-03-29 07:07:20 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, yes
 684 2011-03-29 07:07:26 <roconnor> ah
 685 2011-03-29 07:12:23 <roconnor> phantomcircuit, tcatm: okay, now I'm getting a response
 686 2011-03-29 07:12:25 CyanDynamo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 687 2011-03-29 07:12:34 <roconnor> thanks for all your help
 688 2011-03-29 07:12:41 <phantomcircuit> lol you're not even close
 689 2011-03-29 07:12:52 <phantomcircuit> :P
 690 2011-03-29 07:13:13 <roconnor> not close to what?
 691 2011-03-29 07:13:51 dishwara has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
 692 2011-03-29 07:14:30 <phantomcircuit> roconnor, getting anything useful
 693 2011-03-29 07:14:47 <roconnor> getaddr sends me an addr chuck
 694 2011-03-29 07:14:56 <phantomcircuit> yup
 695 2011-03-29 07:15:01 <phantomcircuit> now try getblocks
 696 2011-03-29 07:15:02 <roconnor> getblocks sends me a inv chunck
 697 2011-03-29 07:15:23 <phantomcircuit> oh neat
 698 2011-03-29 07:15:24 <phantomcircuit> so you did
 699 2011-03-29 07:15:36 <roconnor> but I haven't writen decoded those yet
 700 2011-03-29 07:15:46 <roconnor> *written code to
 701 2011-03-29 07:15:48 <roconnor> bah
 702 2011-03-29 07:15:50 <roconnor> you know what I mean
 703 2011-03-29 07:16:03 <roconnor> but it is midnight here
 704 2011-03-29 07:17:02 <roconnor> I feel accomplished for today
 705 2011-03-29 07:17:15 dishwara has joined
 706 2011-03-29 07:18:24 <mizerydearia> What's an interesting way to refer to bitcoin as "old-fashioned money" in a kind of way that it is a new technology, but old-fashioned in that payment for things can be handled using money instead of using time or giving up rights to data, etc?
 707 2011-03-29 07:18:44 <mizerydearia> What's an interesting way to refer to bitcoin as "old-fashioned money" in a kind of way that it is a new technology, but old-fashioned in that payment for things can be handled using money instead of using time or giving up rights to data, etc?
 708 2011-03-29 07:19:26 <mizerydearia> oops
 709 2011-03-29 07:19:26 <mizerydearia> Maybe "technologically new old-fashioned money?"
 710 2011-03-29 07:27:17 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|goodnight developers of bitcoin
 711 2011-03-29 07:31:37 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 712 2011-03-29 07:31:43 <sipa> goodmorning developers of bitcoin
 713 2011-03-29 07:32:03 echelon has joined
 714 2011-03-29 07:32:20 <da2ce7> goooodmoring sipa!
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 721 2011-03-29 07:41:28 <xelister> CRAZY AND FANCY THINGS that may hang your ATI BINARY DRIVER desktop - but it is excused and explained since we are doing so reckless and complex things to cause it.
 722 2011-03-29 07:41:32 <xelister> MOVING MOUSE CURSOR
 723 2011-03-29 07:41:43 <xelister> part #2 ..:new:..
 724 2011-03-29 07:41:53 <xelister> Executing:    tail /dev/zero
 725 2011-03-29 07:42:02 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 726 2011-03-29 07:42:30 <da2ce7> lol xelister so true!
 727 2011-03-29 07:42:55 <da2ce7> the ATI drivers suck ass
 728 2011-03-29 07:43:13 <xelister> =)
 729 2011-03-29 07:43:23 <xelister> what is up with   tail /dev/zero  hangs your box as well?
 730 2011-03-29 07:43:26 * da2ce7 thinks that we need a good open source opencl driver
 731 2011-03-29 07:43:31 <[Tycho]> Oh, more linux problems :)
 732 2011-03-29 07:43:40 <Stellar> wow
 733 2011-03-29 07:43:46 <Stellar> do you oc your card?
 734 2011-03-29 07:44:18 <xelister> [Tycho]: its rather Ati problem imo
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 738 2011-03-29 07:54:05 <xelister> so... tail /dev/zero     hangs your boxes or not?
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 742 2011-03-29 08:08:12 <BurtyB> define hang? it should work happily although you'll get no output from tail
 743 2011-03-29 08:09:17 <lfm> ya just goes cpu bound, ctrl-c aborts it no prob
 744 2011-03-29 08:11:07 <lfm> gobbles up memory too for some reason
 745 2011-03-29 08:11:44 <lfm> tail: memory exhausted
 746 2011-03-29 08:12:26 <lfm> prolly starts paging and gets so slow you think the system is hung
 747 2011-03-29 08:13:24 <xelister> BurtyB: responded to RqSys, other then that video was frozen,  keyboard responded to locks
 748 2011-03-29 08:14:05 <xelister> so exactly the way the radeon binary hangs
 749 2011-03-29 08:14:10 <lfm> try it with ulimit -v 4000000
 750 2011-03-29 08:14:45 <lfm> tail /dev/zero is a silly thing to do anyway, makes no sense
 751 2011-03-29 08:16:31 <phantomcircuit> lfm, tail can read from /dev/zero much faster than it can display
 752 2011-03-29 08:16:37 <phantomcircuit> so it buffers
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 758 2011-03-29 08:17:15 <lfm> it shouldnt display anything till it finds the eof and since /dev/zero never does eof ...
 759 2011-03-29 08:18:11 <lfm> it may be buffering huge amount looking for line seperators
 760 2011-03-29 08:18:33 <lfm> since tail is intended for text files and /dev/zero is not text
 761 2011-03-29 08:18:53 <phantomcircuit> lfm, uh tail displays before eof by design
 762 2011-03-29 08:19:24 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ya but it doesnt start displayt till it knows where eof is
 763 2011-03-29 08:19:56 <phantomcircuit> lfm, you sure about that?
 764 2011-03-29 08:20:19 <lfm> how you think it figures out what the LAST 10 lines are??????
 765 2011-03-29 08:20:22 <phantomcircuit> hmm it doesn't
 766 2011-03-29 08:20:40 <phantomcircuit> lfm, lol right
 767 2011-03-29 08:20:44 <phantomcircuit> im stupid
 768 2011-03-29 08:20:45 <lfm> well it doesnt for /dev/zero
 769 2011-03-29 08:20:47 <phantomcircuit> i was thinking about head
 770 2011-03-29 08:23:15 <lfm> kk, so Id say tail is working correctly fro a stupid command. It is trying very hard to show you the last 10 lines of /dev/zero and it will keep trying till you abort it
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 772 2011-03-29 08:25:00 <lfm> or it hits some limit like memory size or cpu time
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 776 2011-03-29 08:29:20 <lfm> xelister: if the radeon binary is hanging the same way it may be a similar problem of runaway memory allocations
 777 2011-03-29 08:29:50 <xelister> lfm: the system itself continue to work
 778 2011-03-29 08:29:57 <lfm> ya
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 844 2011-03-29 13:15:00 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 400
 845 2011-03-29 13:15:01 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 400 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 23 years, 25 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 33 minutes, and 38 seconds
 846 2011-03-29 13:15:48 <ForceDestroyer> ;;bc,calc 80000
 847 2011-03-29 13:15:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 6 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 41 minutes, and 16 seconds
 848 2011-03-29 13:17:18 <ForceDestroyer> ;;bc,calc 10000000
 849 2011-03-29 13:17:19 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 68978.89245792 , is 8 hours, 13 minutes, and 46 seconds
 850 2011-03-29 13:19:41 <ForceDestroyer> I'm still wondering about the scalability if BitCoin. Someone said something about node memory requirement being linear in the amount of blocks; how does the amount of blocks scale?
 851 2011-03-29 13:19:45 JayBraver has joined
 852 2011-03-29 13:20:37 <da2ce7> blocks are hard to make.
 853 2011-03-29 13:20:59 <da2ce7> so it will take a huge ammount of effort to make many many more blocks.
 854 2011-03-29 13:21:11 <JayBraver> I tried to offer the services of several of the companies I work with on the trade page, but my changes got reverted. Says 'No Bitcoin Instructions'. Anybody?
 855 2011-03-29 13:21:20 <JayBraver> 07:37, 24 March 2011 Sirius (Talk | contribs) (18,866 bytes) (Reverted JayBraver's edits - no bitcoin instructions) (undo)
 856 2011-03-29 13:21:26 BlueMatt has joined
 857 2011-03-29 13:21:53 <luke-jr> JayBraver: your website should clearly state you accept Bitcoin, as well as pricing and checkout instructions
 858 2011-03-29 13:22:04 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 859 2011-03-29 13:22:05 <da2ce7> JayBraver, you need to explain that you accept bitcoin's on your website to be on the tade site.
 860 2011-03-29 13:22:19 <da2ce7> *page
 861 2011-03-29 13:22:57 <JayBraver> the others listed there I looked at do not
 862 2011-03-29 13:23:35 <ForceDestroyer> By hard, I assume use use the information theory definition, meaning "exponential in ..."?
 863 2011-03-29 13:24:22 <JayBraver> Ok, I see that several of them do. Will re-jigger.
 864 2011-03-29 13:25:58 <JayBraver> What do I need to do? Just put the 'accepting bitcoin' icon on the sites?
 865 2011-03-29 13:26:20 <BlueMatt> and instructions for how to pay with btc
 866 2011-03-29 13:26:26 <BlueMatt> if it's not obvious
 867 2011-03-29 13:29:13 TDX_ is now known as TD
 868 2011-03-29 13:29:19 <TD> ForceDestroyer: see the scalability article on the wiki
 869 2011-03-29 13:29:22 <TD> ;;bc,wiki scalability
 870 2011-03-29 13:29:23 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability | Mar 5, 2011 ... [edit] Scalability targets. VISA handles on average around 2000 transactions/sec , so call it a daily peak rate of 4000/sec. ...
 871 2011-03-29 13:29:28 <JayBraver> It'd be nice if it mentioned on the page how we're expected to do this rather than just delete willing businesses
 872 2011-03-29 13:30:17 <JayBraver> I'm going to stop trying if it gets deleted again
 873 2011-03-29 13:31:27 <grbgout> A how to guide for businesses wanting to adopt bitcoins would probably be better, then provide a link to that guide on the page you're talking about (I'm guessing the Trade wiki page).
 874 2011-03-29 13:31:51 <BlueMatt> jaynbraver the thing is it looks like someone just posted for free advertising if you don't at least have a we accept bitcoins icon
 875 2011-03-29 13:33:09 <JayBraver> I can add the icon and the link, It's the payment instructions I don't know. Do you think linking back here would be enough? They have to contact us before they pay in any case.
 876 2011-03-29 13:33:23 TD has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 877 2011-03-29 13:33:29 <BlueMatt> or just link to an email
 878 2011-03-29 13:33:38 <BlueMatt> or a page which says email us
 879 2011-03-29 13:34:06 <JayBraver> can do. Thanks.
 880 2011-03-29 13:34:54 <luke-jr> JayBraver: it doesn't need to be more prominent than fiat currencies (though that's probably encouraged)
 881 2011-03-29 13:35:35 <JayBraver> fiat currencies?
 882 2011-03-29 13:35:50 <BlueMatt> normal ones
 883 2011-03-29 13:35:59 <BlueMatt> ie usd eur etc
 884 2011-03-29 13:37:17 <JayBraver> do you know where that small 'accepting bitcoins' logo is? I'm not finding it.
 885 2011-03-29 13:39:59 <luke-jr> you can wget it from me http://lightfoot.dashjr.org/image/BC_Rnd_48px.png
 886 2011-03-29 13:40:02 EvanR-work has joined
 887 2011-03-29 13:40:23 <JayBraver> thx
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 893 2011-03-29 13:54:18 Strom- has joined
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 895 2011-03-29 13:55:28 <ersi> How much bandwidth does it pull to run bitcoind constantly?
 896 2011-03-29 13:55:45 <BlueMatt> almost nothing
 897 2011-03-29 13:56:00 <BlueMatt> but it adds up
 898 2011-03-29 13:56:11 <ersi> almost nothing, meaning? :)
 899 2011-03-29 13:56:29 jackSmith has joined
 900 2011-03-29 13:56:52 <BlueMatt> maybe 1-200m over a month
 901 2011-03-29 13:57:02 <BlueMatt> if that
 902 2011-03-29 13:57:09 <EvanR-work> millibits?
 903 2011-03-29 13:57:47 <lfm> yes even, we divide bytes into 1000 pieces
 904 2011-03-29 13:58:10 Strom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 905 2011-03-29 13:58:34 <ersi> well, then there'll be another node up and running in a while then
 906 2011-03-29 13:59:05 <ersi> running bitcoind/a node = forward/fiddle with transactions != mining, right?
 907 2011-03-29 13:59:16 TD has joined
 908 2011-03-29 13:59:30 <BlueMatt> yes
 909 2011-03-29 13:59:45 <BlueMatt> unless you set -gen=1
 910 2011-03-29 13:59:57 <EvanR-work> lfm: not very tonal
 911 2011-03-29 13:59:58 <ersi> Yeah, heh.
 912 2011-03-29 14:00:22 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 913 2011-03-29 14:00:27 <klaasvakie> hi guys, I have a question that I haven't seen answered in the FAQ's. Suppose bitcoin becomes the de-facto global currency, and suppose that everybody on the planet (6bn people) performs one transaction a day. this gives a mean of 250m transactions per hour, or or ~42m transactions for every block generated (6 per hour). If every transaction can be described in 100bytes, does this mean that for every block, every node on the
 914 2011-03-29 14:00:43 <EvanR-work> >_>
 915 2011-03-29 14:00:48 <sipa> every node on the [...] ?
 916 2011-03-29 14:00:59 <ersi> Dude, don't post essays
 917 2011-03-29 14:01:07 <klaasvakie> sorry man
 918 2011-03-29 14:01:11 <EvanR-work> pastebin the dissertation
 919 2011-03-29 14:01:20 <klaasvakie> its only 3 lines :)
 920 2011-03-29 14:01:44 <ersi> on a 3kx2k monitor?
 921 2011-03-29 14:01:52 <sipa> with fontsize 4?
 922 2011-03-29 14:01:58 <klaasvakie> did it get snipped somewhere?
 923 2011-03-29 14:01:59 * ersi snickers
 924 2011-03-29 14:02:00 <EvanR-work> i have 10 lines here
 925 2011-03-29 14:02:06 <sipa> klaasvakie: every node on the [...]
 926 2011-03-29 14:02:08 <ersi> klaasvakie: yeah, at "every node on the"
 927 2011-03-29 14:02:11 <klaasvakie> hold on, i'll pastebin
 928 2011-03-29 14:02:53 <lfm> klaasvakie: the support for that will be in version 238.1.1, we are still working on ver 0.3.21
 929 2011-03-29 14:03:20 <klaasvakie> http://pastebin.com/yBqh2KBQ
 930 2011-03-29 14:03:21 <sipa> klaasvakie: the answer is probably https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability :)
 931 2011-03-29 14:03:50 <TD> we should put this into the FAQ
 932 2011-03-29 14:03:56 <TD> seeing as it is actually an FAQ (unlike tonal bitcoin)
 933 2011-03-29 14:04:04 <klaasvakie> sipa: eish, must have miseed that, sorry
 934 2011-03-29 14:04:08 * klaasvakie does some reading
 935 2011-03-29 14:04:11 <TD> klaasvakie: it's hard to find, no worries
 936 2011-03-29 14:05:00 Strom has joined
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 939 2011-03-29 14:08:21 <klaasvakie> ok, I still don't get this, does every bitcoin client need a copy of every block + all the transactions in the block?
 940 2011-03-29 14:08:30 <TD> no
 941 2011-03-29 14:08:36 <TD> only ones that verify transactions
 942 2011-03-29 14:08:42 <TD> eg, miners
 943 2011-03-29 14:08:44 <klaasvakie> how do results get confirmed
 944 2011-03-29 14:08:49 <klaasvakie> aah beat me to it
 945 2011-03-29 14:09:02 <TD> i suggest reading satoshis paper for the technical details
 946 2011-03-29 14:10:04 <klaasvakie> thanks, I never thought that one could rely solely on external nodes to confirm your transactions
 947 2011-03-29 14:10:13 <klaasvakie> it makes sense now
 948 2011-03-29 14:11:18 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 949 2011-03-29 14:11:25 <lfm> klaasvakie: see mybitcoin.com
 950 2011-03-29 14:15:08 <klaasvakie> thanks for your help guys, i'll let my measly cpu continue mining :)
 951 2011-03-29 14:15:44 <lfm> klaasvakie: see mybitcoin.com, you can partisipate without running the bitcoin net at all
 952 2011-03-29 14:17:28 <klaasvakie> lfm, thanks, but it doesn't look like I have a pressing need for any of the services described on the home page, I'll sign up as soon as I do though
 953 2011-03-29 14:17:29 toffoo has joined
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 955 2011-03-29 14:18:59 <TD> klaasvakie: yeah you won't get far with cpu mining
 956 2011-03-29 14:19:08 <TD> if you're doing it solo it could be years before finding a block
 957 2011-03-29 14:19:24 <lfm> klaasvakie: see mybitcoin.com for an example of how transactions can be handled without needing to load down the main network too. I mean txn between mybitcoin users. all handled within the node, no net traffic and no bitcoin overhead
 958 2011-03-29 14:19:50 <da2ce7> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Helping_Bitcoin
 959 2011-03-29 14:19:54 <klaasvakie> naah, not solo, I signed up for one of the shared mining services
 960 2011-03-29 14:19:57 <da2ce7> what do you think guys?
 961 2011-03-29 14:20:07 Teslah has joined
 962 2011-03-29 14:20:38 <TD> nice da2ce7. there are a few typos
 963 2011-03-29 14:20:44 <TD> but the content is good
 964 2011-03-29 14:20:59 djoot has quit (Changing host)
 965 2011-03-29 14:20:59 djoot has joined
 966 2011-03-29 14:21:00 <da2ce7> :S :)
 967 2011-03-29 14:21:47 <Blitzboom> http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/319116201#319122497
 968 2011-03-29 14:21:49 <Blitzboom> fffff
 969 2011-03-29 14:22:00 <Blitzboom> is "generate coins" finally turned off in .21?
 970 2011-03-29 14:22:11 <Blitzboom> err, hidden
 971 2011-03-29 14:22:38 <BurtyB> da2ce7 is 4chan something you really want to associate directly?
 972 2011-03-29 14:23:15 <da2ce7> well, I thought it was a good reference for scope.
 973 2011-03-29 14:24:35 echelon has joined
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 975 2011-03-29 14:27:10 sgornick has joined
 976 2011-03-29 14:28:53 RazielZ has joined
 977 2011-03-29 14:29:15 * da2ce7 wants a full 'helping bitcoin' wiki page that we can link to from the bitcoin.org page
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 987 2011-03-29 14:41:23 <xelister> lol http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1301406918273.jpg
 988 2011-03-29 14:41:32 <CIA-96> bitcoin: mtve <mtve1927@gmail.com> * r1e55d3eba5c1 bitcoin-pl/ (data.pm main.pm): correct chain download
 989 2011-03-29 14:41:37 <xelister> </ot and stupid> :P
 990 2011-03-29 14:41:44 <CIA-96> bitcoin: mtve <mtve1927@gmail.com> * r9908f5f8037c bitcoin-pl/main.pm: cleanup
 991 2011-03-29 14:41:44 <CIA-96> bitcoin: mtve <mtve1927@gmail.com> * r4658fc94f9af bitcoin-pl/ (data.pm logger.pm main.pm web.pm): started wallet management
 992 2011-03-29 14:43:46 <da2ce7> well I'm 2 sleep....
 993 2011-03-29 14:44:43 <xelister> I GENERATED
 994 2011-03-29 14:44:45 <xelister> WOOO
 995 2011-03-29 14:44:47 <xelister> dryspell is over
 996 2011-03-29 14:44:54 * xelister ponders if this means he should buy more condoms too
 997 2011-03-29 14:46:13 <luke-jr> false
 998 2011-03-29 14:46:35 <BlueMatt> unless you generated a couple million usd, the opposite is true
 999 2011-03-29 14:47:08 <da2ce7> MOAR CONDOMS
1000 2011-03-29 14:47:08 <da2ce7> condoms << cheaper than Children
1001 2011-03-29 14:47:23 da2ce7 is now known as da2ceZzzz
1002 2011-03-29 14:47:49 <BlueMatt> well if you spend your time generating btc you probably dont need comdoms
1003 2011-03-29 14:48:02 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1004 2011-03-29 14:48:06 <BlueMatt> unless of course it made you rich...
1005 2011-03-29 14:48:29 <luke-jr> condoms are always gravely immoral and damning
1006 2011-03-29 14:48:38 <xelister> BlueMatt: that is what I thought,
1007 2011-03-29 14:48:43 <xelister> but then I start using computer for mining
1008 2011-03-29 14:48:51 <xelister> it was a greate idea.
1009 2011-03-29 14:50:50 jackSmith has joined
1010 2011-03-29 14:55:57 <Blitzboom> generating bitcoins, hell yeah
1011 2011-03-29 14:56:06 <Blitzboom> we sure all like printing money
1012 2011-03-29 14:56:17 <BlueMatt> who doesnt?
1013 2011-03-29 14:56:50 <Blitzboom> i don’t know. just nice that all ouf our printing presses get slower over time
1014 2011-03-29 14:57:47 genjix has joined
1015 2011-03-29 14:58:06 <genjix> luke-jr: did you know hollywood is making a film of Foundation?
1016 2011-03-29 14:58:54 <luke-jr> genjix: yes
1017 2011-03-29 14:59:26 <genjix> "the Avatar technology applies to Foundation... It has to be done all CG because I would not know how to shoot this thing in real."
1018 2011-03-29 14:59:29 <genjix> kill me now.
1019 2011-03-29 14:59:56 <luke-jr> it will probably be terrible
1020 2011-03-29 14:59:57 <genjix> (fyi i saw your wiki page. im a fan of asimov too :)
1021 2011-03-29 15:03:28 <grbgout> What's foundation?
1022 2011-03-29 15:03:43 <grbgout> an asimov story/novel?
1023 2011-03-29 15:04:36 <genjix> yup
1024 2011-03-29 15:04:41 <genjix> all talking.
1025 2011-03-29 15:06:46 <grbgout> interesting
1026 2011-03-29 15:07:53 sprash has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1028 2011-03-29 15:23:03 adlsaks has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1029 2011-03-29 15:25:36 <xelister> movies need more CGI
1030 2011-03-29 15:26:23 <xelister> need moar boring plastic figures with no storyline or passion like Star Wars I, II, III a.k.a  Darth VaBoring?  no problem
1031 2011-03-29 15:32:57 <Kiba> never watched avatar
1032 2011-03-29 15:40:40 <nanotube> Kiba: looks like some more chinese student marketplace posts need to be moved to the child forum
1033 2011-03-29 15:41:48 Zarutian has joined
1034 2011-03-29 15:44:43 <Kiba> done.
1035 2011-03-29 15:45:23 <nanotube> thanks Kiba :)
1036 2011-03-29 15:48:27 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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1055 2011-03-29 16:33:57 <UukGoblin> is there a way to withdraw USD from mtgox?
1056 2011-03-29 16:35:38 <manveru> UukGoblin: yeah
1057 2011-03-29 16:35:51 <manveru> well, you can withdraw to liberty reserve
1058 2011-03-29 16:36:01 <jgarzik> if > $800, via ACH
1059 2011-03-29 16:37:32 <UukGoblin> my friend says he can't withdraw with LR for the second day in a row now
1060 2011-03-29 16:37:42 <UukGoblin> tells him to "try again tomorrow"
1061 2011-03-29 16:38:53 <manveru> hm
1062 2011-03-29 16:39:15 <manveru> UukGoblin: you might wanna try to reach magicaltux in #bitcoin-otc
1063 2011-03-29 16:39:35 <manveru> or via mail, he's asleep already
1064 2011-03-29 16:40:13 <UukGoblin> manveru, k, thanks
1065 2011-03-29 16:42:08 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1066 2011-03-29 16:45:16 <Kiba> voting for animation video started
1067 2011-03-29 16:45:26 jackSmith has joined
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1069 2011-03-29 16:49:07 SykeP has joined
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1071 2011-03-29 16:51:32 <genjix> Kiba: if 5 people vote, is the poll over?
1072 2011-03-29 16:53:59 SykeP has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1073 2011-03-29 16:57:18 <jgarzik> with 4 Ghps, you'd think I'd generate a block one of these days
1074 2011-03-29 16:57:37 <idnar> o/` one of these days / I'm going to cut you into little pieces! o/`
1075 2011-03-29 16:58:40 SykeP has joined
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1078 2011-03-29 17:03:16 <yebyen> luke-jr: lol, sure... i have quite a bit
1079 2011-03-29 17:03:26 <xelister> jgarzik: you're in druspell too? ;)
1080 2011-03-29 17:09:15 jeremydei has joined
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1084 2011-03-29 17:14:55 <nanotube> yebyen: what do you have quite a bit of? :)
1085 2011-03-29 17:15:44 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1087 2011-03-29 17:30:01 <BlueMatt> anyone have a ubuntu 32-bit desktop install and care to test something really quick?
1088 2011-03-29 17:31:22 <sipa> only 64-bit here
1089 2011-03-29 17:31:28 <lfm> BlueMatt: like what?
1090 2011-03-29 17:31:31 <BlueMatt> same here, hence the question
1091 2011-03-29 17:31:40 <BlueMatt> lfm: just test if a file runs right
1092 2011-03-29 17:31:44 <genjix> BlueMatt: hey
1093 2011-03-29 17:31:47 <BlueMatt> specifically a bitcoin build
1094 2011-03-29 17:31:48 <genjix> 32 bit ok
1095 2011-03-29 17:32:02 <xelister> >_>
1096 2011-03-29 17:32:20 <xelister> untrusted binary local execution ftw
1097 2011-03-29 17:32:30 <lfm> bitcoind or bitcoin
1098 2011-03-29 17:32:32 <BlueMatt> you trust me, right?
1099 2011-03-29 17:32:37 <genjix> pfft i doubt BlueMatt wants to steal my btc
1100 2011-03-29 17:32:37 <BlueMatt> bitcoin hence the gui requirement
1101 2011-03-29 17:33:08 <BlueMatt> http://bitcoin.bluematt.me/bitcoin-nightly/ubuntu-i686-patched/ the latest one there
1102 2011-03-29 17:33:16 <BlueMatt> once if finishes uploading
1103 2011-03-29 17:33:27 <sipa> i suppose if genjix really didn't trust BlueMatt, he'd suggest to compile it himself
1104 2011-03-29 17:33:33 <xelister> BlueMatt: you plan to package it for ubuntu?
1105 2011-03-29 17:33:35 <BlueMatt> or just chroot it
1106 2011-03-29 17:33:40 <BlueMatt> or run it on a vm or....
1107 2011-03-29 17:33:49 <BlueMatt> xelister: only sort of
1108 2011-03-29 17:34:00 <xelister> BlueMatt: so how it goes?
1109 2011-03-29 17:34:04 <BlueMatt> as it turns out there is a problem linking so I just thought Id ask if someone could test it
1110 2011-03-29 17:34:10 <BlueMatt> if it opens, it works ;)
1111 2011-03-29 17:34:15 <nanotube> request that it be signed with BlueMatt's gpg key :)
1112 2011-03-29 17:34:27 <BlueMatt> thats a ton of work
1113 2011-03-29 17:34:36 <nanotube> gpg --sign <filename>
1114 2011-03-29 17:34:38 <nanotube> done
1115 2011-03-29 17:34:45 <BlueMatt> and then upload to mirror
1116 2011-03-29 17:34:46 <genjix> wait so i only need to download/untar it?
1117 2011-03-29 17:34:52 <BlueMatt> genjix: if you dont mind
1118 2011-03-29 17:34:55 <genjix> kk
1119 2011-03-29 17:35:03 <BlueMatt> nanotube: and copy my gpg key to the vm which makes the builds and and and
1120 2011-03-29 17:35:04 <nanotube> BlueMatt: ok, so then you rsync to upload the signature
1121 2011-03-29 17:35:09 <nanotube> hehe
1122 2011-03-29 17:35:15 <nanotube> you can post your signature separately
1123 2011-03-29 17:35:21 <nanotube> (pastebin, even)
1124 2011-03-29 17:35:24 <genjix> BlueMatt: everything seems fine but i haven't run it yet
1125 2011-03-29 17:35:30 <BlueMatt> arg, genjix is already running it
1126 2011-03-29 17:35:30 <nanotube> but anyway, just a suggestion
1127 2011-03-29 17:35:39 <BlueMatt> genjix: if bitcoin opens, it worked
1128 2011-03-29 17:35:45 <genjix> ok hold on
1129 2011-03-29 17:35:51 <genjix> (need to stop bitcoind)
1130 2011-03-29 17:36:53 <genjix> BlueMatt: works fine.
1131 2011-03-29 17:36:59 <BlueMatt> genjix: ok thanks
1132 2011-03-29 17:37:32 <BlueMatt> nanotube: I need to work on the nightly server to make it more useful but for now, it building is good
1133 2011-03-29 17:39:56 <BlueMatt> btw that version has upnp including upnp in the wxui
1134 2011-03-29 17:40:01 <BlueMatt> :)
1135 2011-03-29 17:40:55 jeremydei has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1136 2011-03-29 17:42:18 <FabianB> Diablo-D3: DiabloMiner doesn't work headless?
1137 2011-03-29 17:43:43 <BlueMatt> FabianB: the drivers need x, cuda/opencl dont really need it, its just an arbitrary restriction of nvidia/ati
1138 2011-03-29 17:45:54 Bosma has joined
1139 2011-03-29 17:46:26 <yebyen> nanotube: counterfeit bitcoins :x
1140 2011-03-29 17:46:51 <FabianB> can they be counterfeitet?
1141 2011-03-29 17:46:58 <BlueMatt> FabianB: no
1142 2011-03-29 17:47:22 <xelister> lololol http://i.imgur.com/M6GMN.jpg
1143 2011-03-29 17:47:26 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1144 2011-03-29 17:47:45 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: what hardware?
1145 2011-03-29 17:48:07 <yebyen> yeah they can
1146 2011-03-29 17:48:12 <yebyen> you can't accidentally accept them though
1147 2011-03-29 17:48:31 <yebyen> unless i managed to pass you my counterfeit bitcoins binary :)
1148 2011-03-29 17:48:34 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: because radeon and old nvidia drivers need an actual X running
1149 2011-03-29 17:48:44 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: its a limitation of the drivers
1150 2011-03-29 17:48:57 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: new nvidia drivers can run opencl headless?
1151 2011-03-29 17:49:04 <FabianB> hmm.. how do I find out in an ubuntu
1152 2011-03-29 17:49:21 <Diablo-D3> how do you find out what hardware you own?!
1153 2011-03-29 17:49:43 larsivi has joined
1154 2011-03-29 17:49:57 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: you dont know?!
1155 2011-03-29 17:50:02 <Diablo-D3> its either amd or nvidia dude
1156 2011-03-29 17:50:02 <FabianB> well, it wasn't intended for mining
1157 2011-03-29 17:50:08 <FabianB> its a small box for my tv
1158 2011-03-29 17:50:43 <Diablo-D3> lspci | grep VGA
1159 2011-03-29 17:50:49 <FabianB> n atom with an nvidia ion
1160 2011-03-29 17:50:59 <Diablo-D3> you cant use opencl on that.
1161 2011-03-29 17:51:03 <FabianB> 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation ION VGA (rev b1)
1162 2011-03-29 17:51:04 <xelister> Diablo-D3: it can be intell gfx card :trollface:
1163 2011-03-29 17:51:08 <xelister> intel
1164 2011-03-29 17:51:16 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: yup, no mining on that.
1165 2011-03-29 17:51:19 <Diablo-D3> so, problem solved.
1166 2011-03-29 17:51:21 <xelister> I didnt mistaken much
1167 2011-03-29 17:51:27 <FabianB> yeah, thank you
1168 2011-03-29 17:51:40 jeremydei has joined
1169 2011-03-29 17:51:50 <FabianB> just thought I could use it while I don't watch hd video on it
1170 2011-03-29 17:51:57 <Diablo-D3> and you're not going to get anything out of cpu mining either
1171 2011-03-29 17:52:23 <FabianB> just playing around for fun
1172 2011-03-29 17:52:48 <ersi> Hmmm.. wonder how Amazon's GPU instance measures up in teh mining
1173 2011-03-29 17:53:00 <Diablo-D3> ersi: I HAZ DONE TEH MATH
1174 2011-03-29 17:53:00 <BlueMatt> ersi: not power efficient
1175 2011-03-29 17:53:14 <Diablo-D3> http://pastebin.com/j1iZ5tgk
1176 2011-03-29 17:53:15 <ersi> Power efficient? You mean wallet efficient? ;p
1177 2011-03-29 17:53:22 <Diablo-D3> thats for normal gpgpu apps
1178 2011-03-29 17:53:25 <BlueMatt> yes thats what I meant
1179 2011-03-29 17:53:26 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin makes it 4-5x worse
1180 2011-03-29 17:53:28 <ersi> awesome
1181 2011-03-29 17:53:33 <Diablo-D3> and amazon is passing the costs to you
1182 2011-03-29 17:53:38 <ersi> Thanks for those calculations Diablo-D3 :)
1183 2011-03-29 17:53:44 <Diablo-D3> spoiler: amazon and nvidia are trolling you.
1184 2011-03-29 17:53:50 tower has joined
1185 2011-03-29 17:54:22 <ersi> Well, that sucks ;D
1186 2011-03-29 17:55:11 <Diablo-D3> yeah, its cheaper to just flat out buy your own farm
1187 2011-03-29 17:55:26 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
1188 2011-03-29 17:56:34 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|Haha, I started bitcoing on my linode again
1189 2011-03-29 17:56:46 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I expect to generate 1bc/year
1190 2011-03-29 17:56:59 <BlueMatt> any pay...?
1191 2011-03-29 17:57:10 synisma has joined
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1193 2011-03-29 17:57:47 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: btw, if you swap that out for an AMD Fusion box, you can mine
1194 2011-03-29 17:58:00 <Diablo-D3> FabianB: it'll just be still in the realm of "impressively slow"
1195 2011-03-29 17:59:36 <nameless> !~root@weowntheinter.net|I need to get a cheap mining box
1196 2011-03-29 18:06:13 synisma has quit (Quit: synisma)
1197 2011-03-29 18:07:21 <xelister> FabianB: or just mine the btc
1198 2011-03-29 18:07:49 <yebyen> what are some pooled clients?
1199 2011-03-29 18:07:54 <yebyen> i'm tired of not generating anything
1200 2011-03-29 18:08:26 <yebyen> anything not listed on the bluishcoder website?
1201 2011-03-29 18:10:04 <lfm> yebyen: what gpu do you have?
1202 2011-03-29 18:10:21 <yebyen> i915 :x
1203 2011-03-29 18:10:39 <lfm> oh so you're just on a cpu
1204 2011-03-29 18:10:55 klnikita_ has quit (Quit: Changing server)
1205 2011-03-29 18:11:13 <yebyen> yeah
1206 2011-03-29 18:11:16 <lfm> for cpu the best client is I think cpuminer
1207 2011-03-29 18:11:17 <yebyen> atom n270
1208 2011-03-29 18:11:41 sabalaba has joined
1209 2011-03-29 18:11:46 <lfm> oh dear thats not a fast cpu, you wont make anything quickly with that
1210 2011-03-29 18:12:01 <yebyen> yeah i think i might get more of them though
1211 2011-03-29 18:12:39 <lfm> one gpu even a modest one is probably 1000 times faster than that
1212 2011-03-29 18:13:00 <lfm> for bitcoin
1213 2011-03-29 18:13:33 <yebyen> really
1214 2011-03-29 18:13:45 <lfm> what khash/s are you getting?
1215 2011-03-29 18:13:57 <yebyen> 639843
1216 2011-03-29 18:14:01 <yebyen> that's a different cpu
1217 2011-03-29 18:14:06 da2ceZzzz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1218 2011-03-29 18:14:11 <yebyen>     "hashespersec" : 181080,
1219 2011-03-29 18:14:15 <yebyen> that's the atom
1220 2011-03-29 18:14:21 <lfm> that is hash/s not khash/s I think
1221 2011-03-29 18:14:26 <yebyen> you are correct
1222 2011-03-29 18:15:19 <lfm> ok I have a ati 5770, cost me about $105 and it gets 160000000 hash/s (160Mhash/s)
1223 2011-03-29 18:15:21 FellowTraveler has joined
1224 2011-03-29 18:15:25 <FellowTraveler> hiya all
1225 2011-03-29 18:16:03 <lfm> so almost 1000 times the atom
1226 2011-03-29 18:16:59 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1227 2011-03-29 18:17:46 <lfm> FellowTraveler: hi
1228 2011-03-29 18:18:52 <FellowTraveler> hi lfm, changing the world?
1229 2011-03-29 18:19:10 <lfm> naw, same ol same ol
1230 2011-03-29 18:19:40 <joepie91> \o/
1231 2011-03-29 18:19:46 <joepie91> dynadot has suspended my domain
1232 2011-03-29 18:20:27 <lfm> did they give a reason? are you a terrorist?
1233 2011-03-29 18:20:40 <FellowTraveler> dynadot has not suspended by eepsite.
1234 2011-03-29 18:20:50 <joepie91> "hacking"
1235 2011-03-29 18:20:53 <joepie91> aka
1236 2011-03-29 18:20:56 <joepie91> a link to a page on imgur
1237 2011-03-29 18:20:59 <joepie91> that contained an image
1238 2011-03-29 18:21:08 <joepie91> that gave instructions on how to "recover" someones facebook account
1239 2011-03-29 18:21:13 <joepie91> without being the owner
1240 2011-03-29 18:21:22 <lfm> oh dear
1241 2011-03-29 18:21:23 <joepie91> ... it was not even hosted on anonnews -_-
1242 2011-03-29 18:21:23 <JFK911> omg hax
1243 2011-03-29 18:21:29 <joepie91> soooo... I'm moving to PRQ
1244 2011-03-29 18:21:33 <joepie91> and Dynadot just lost a customer
1245 2011-03-29 18:21:38 <JFK911> try dreamhost
1246 2011-03-29 18:21:45 <joepie91> nty
1247 2011-03-29 18:21:46 <JFK911> they have deflected dmca demands for me
1248 2011-03-29 18:21:53 <joepie91> I'd rather not try my luck again
1249 2011-03-29 18:22:04 <JFK911> just sayin they have been good to me bro
1250 2011-03-29 18:22:08 <luke-jr> JFK911: what?
1251 2011-03-29 18:22:14 <joepie91> I know... but of PRQ I'm 100% sure that it will go well
1252 2011-03-29 18:22:14 <luke-jr> you can't deflect DMCA demands
1253 2011-03-29 18:22:19 <joepie91> plus
1254 2011-03-29 18:22:22 <joepie91> PRQ is not even US
1255 2011-03-29 18:22:46 <JFK911> luke-jr: when the demands are shit on their face, at least they have the sense to say FU rather than shut my crap down
1256 2011-03-29 18:22:48 <lfm> luke lots of ways, easiest is to not be in the usa
1257 2011-03-29 18:22:49 <joepie91> (also, this was about a regular abuse letter, not about a DMCA... supposedly my site violated their terms and conditions)
1258 2011-03-29 18:23:01 <joepie91> aka
1259 2011-03-29 18:23:02 <joepie91> one moron
1260 2011-03-29 18:23:06 <joepie91> that was sending out random abuse letters
1261 2011-03-29 18:23:10 <joepie91> to hosts and registrars
1262 2011-03-29 18:23:11 <joepie91> related to anon
1263 2011-03-29 18:23:15 <joepie91> to see which ones would shut down shit
1264 2011-03-29 18:24:42 <xelister> can we DMCA like sony.com ?
1265 2011-03-29 18:25:07 <lfm> the usa side of it I spoze
1266 2011-03-29 18:25:09 <JFK911> it might be difficult to come up with an actionable complaint
1267 2011-03-29 18:25:14 <JFK911> also they have a lot of evil lawyers
1268 2011-03-29 18:25:23 <JFK911> i think its better to put up a website saying things like
1269 2011-03-29 18:25:29 <lfm> they stole my web site idea
1270 2011-03-29 18:25:32 <xelister> well if DMCA will be unstopable bullshit, then it means it can used against anyone
1271 2011-03-29 18:25:39 <JFK911> sony tv burned down my childhood home and killed my parents and brother, thanks sony for making me an orphan
1272 2011-03-29 18:25:43 <JFK911> or
1273 2011-03-29 18:25:49 <JFK911> we put anthrax in 10 ps3 boxes, will you be a WINNER?
1274 2011-03-29 18:26:13 <JFK911> maybe instead of a tv burning it could be a powerbook or dell battery
1275 2011-03-29 18:27:38 larsivi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1276 2011-03-29 18:28:08 <lfm> aibo bit me
1277 2011-03-29 18:28:36 <JFK911> good one
1278 2011-03-29 18:28:42 <JFK911> got rabies or tetanus from aibo
1279 2011-03-29 18:28:47 <JFK911> adding that to the list
1280 2011-03-29 18:30:22 st-14258 has quit (Quit: Quiting...)
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1298 2011-03-29 19:21:30 <FellowTraveler> So wait a second, Bitcoin doesn't have any backing value then?
1299 2011-03-29 19:21:45 <Kiba> FellowTraveler: no sir. It's all supply and demand
1300 2011-03-29 19:22:08 <EvanR-work> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths
1301 2011-03-29 19:22:11 <Blitzboom> bitcoin could only be backed if there was a central entity behind it
1302 2011-03-29 19:22:24 <Blitzboom> which wouldn’t make it very decentralized …
1303 2011-03-29 19:22:40 <EvanR-work> bitcoin is backed by the full faith and reputation of itself
1304 2011-03-29 19:24:11 <FellowTraveler> Sorry I just have a twisted sense of humor, been up all night.
1305 2011-03-29 19:25:48 <FellowTraveler> Does anyone know what's the best lib for bitcoin API if I just want to talk to bitcoind through java?
1306 2011-03-29 19:25:57 <ersi> Bitcoin is powered by the power of Lulz
1307 2011-03-29 19:26:17 <Diablo-D3> FellowTraveler: there really isnt one technically
1308 2011-03-29 19:26:40 <EvanR-work> use bitcoind directly
1309 2011-03-29 19:26:45 <EvanR-work> like shell exec
1310 2011-03-29 19:26:50 <Diablo-D3> although Ive been using resteasy's rest client
1311 2011-03-29 19:26:54 <Diablo-D3> and then mocking my own json up
1312 2011-03-29 19:27:06 <Diablo-D3> and I use something far worse in my miner
1313 2011-03-29 19:28:25 <jgarzik> FellowTraveler: http://json-rpc.org/wiki/implementations
1314 2011-03-29 19:28:38 <jgarzik> several listed under Java
1315 2011-03-29 19:29:24 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: no
1316 2011-03-29 19:29:28 <Diablo-D3> they all suck.
1317 2011-03-29 19:29:47 Bosma has joined
1318 2011-03-29 19:31:24 <joepie91> well
1319 2011-03-29 19:31:31 <joepie91> at least my domain works for the time being again
1320 2011-03-29 19:31:33 <joepie91> got the auth code
1321 2011-03-29 19:31:44 <FellowTraveler> EvanR-work, let's say I am on Windows with a Java app, and I want to call bitcoind on same machine, can I still do shell exec solution?
1322 2011-03-29 19:31:58 <EvanR-work> windows??
1323 2011-03-29 19:32:02 <EvanR-work> why! why!
1324 2011-03-29 19:32:29 <FellowTraveler> What would you do with your own cross-platform app, to make sure it can talk to bitcoin even if it's running on Windows or Android or Linux or Mac or whatever
1325 2011-03-29 19:32:36 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1326 2011-03-29 19:32:48 <FellowTraveler> what's the point of java if it won't run on 40% of all the computers in asia?
1327 2011-03-29 19:32:53 <FellowTraveler> Windows is important.
1328 2011-03-29 19:32:55 <Diablo-D3> FellowTraveler: do not follow the shell exec advice
1329 2011-03-29 19:32:57 <Diablo-D3> thats retarded
1330 2011-03-29 19:33:14 <Diablo-D3> FellowTraveler: worst case, look at the code in my miner
1331 2011-03-29 19:33:16 <EvanR-work> bitcoind also has a json-rpc interface
1332 2011-03-29 19:33:23 <EvanR-work> you can use that over the network
1333 2011-03-29 19:33:27 <Diablo-D3> EvanR-work: this is what we're discussing.
1334 2011-03-29 19:33:55 <EvanR-work> good to see you guys are finally on the right track
1335 2011-03-29 19:34:51 <FellowTraveler> https://github.com/Diablo-D3/DiabloMiner/blob/master/src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java
1336 2011-03-29 19:35:04 <FellowTraveler> Diablo-D3 is that just a wrapper for bitcoind then?
1337 2011-03-29 19:36:16 <Diablo-D3> see line 695 or so
1338 2011-03-29 19:36:39 <Diablo-D3> my new code is far shorter and much saner, but I havent ported it back into the miner yet
1339 2011-03-29 19:36:59 <FellowTraveler> ok cool and the rest is on the wiki for the JSON API
1340 2011-03-29 19:37:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah
1341 2011-03-29 19:37:51 <FellowTraveler> FYI, my own API in Java:  https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/blob/master/testwallet/otapiJNI.java
1342 2011-03-29 19:37:53 m00p has joined
1343 2011-03-29 19:38:15 <FellowTraveler> and there: https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/API
1344 2011-03-29 19:38:25 dmnd has quit (Quit: dmnd)
1345 2011-03-29 19:39:17 <Diablo-D3> btw my new code
1346 2011-03-29 19:39:35 <Diablo-D3> ServerBackend.java http://pastebin.com/AUPS2qqX
1347 2011-03-29 19:40:01 <Diablo-D3> ServerInterface.java http://pastebin.com/iqfWjuvH
1348 2011-03-29 19:40:18 <FellowTraveler> cool
1349 2011-03-29 19:41:00 <Diablo-D3> PoolClient.java http://pastebin.com/nNfdaFrA
1350 2011-03-29 19:41:10 <Diablo-D3> and that just proxies getwork blindly through
1351 2011-03-29 19:41:12 gasteve_ has joined
1352 2011-03-29 19:41:28 <nanotube> yebyen: hehe aren't those like, testnet coins? ;)
1353 2011-03-29 19:41:45 <toffoo> hi, does anybody have a pre-compiled/installable version of PyOpenCL for OSX?  Google didn't help me.  I want to try m0mchil's poclbm miner but don't have Xcode installed on this Mac to build the PyOpenCL tar it needs.
1354 2011-03-29 19:42:41 <Diablo-D3> FellowTraveler: the interesting parts of PoolClient.java is ServerBackend.request(request)
1355 2011-03-29 19:42:49 <Diablo-D3> FellowTraveler: on line 42
1356 2011-03-29 19:43:02 <FellowTraveler> nod see it.
1357 2011-03-29 19:43:08 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1358 2011-03-29 19:43:37 <Diablo-D3> FellowTraveler: resteasy client handles all the boilerplate code
1359 2011-03-29 19:43:47 BlueMatt has joined
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1361 2011-03-29 19:43:47 BlueMatt has joined
1362 2011-03-29 19:43:59 <FellowTraveler> is this all GPL?
1363 2011-03-29 19:44:07 <Diablo-D3> it'll be GPLv3 when it gets published
1364 2011-03-29 19:44:09 <FellowTraveler> cool
1365 2011-03-29 19:44:18 gasteve has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1366 2011-03-29 19:44:18 gasteve_ is now known as gasteve
1367 2011-03-29 19:44:38 <Diablo-D3> I'll probably end up writing a lib that does bitcoind access
1368 2011-03-29 19:44:51 <FellowTraveler> that's what I'd like, in java.
1369 2011-03-29 19:44:59 <Diablo-D3> but that wont be for awhile
1370 2011-03-29 19:45:09 <Diablo-D3> I only need it so I can share code between DiabloMiner and DiabloPool
1371 2011-03-29 19:45:19 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: I finally got around to rebooting and I still get "ERROR: Failed to build program on..." when I try to open your miner
1372 2011-03-29 19:45:51 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: what hardware?
1373 2011-03-29 19:46:15 <FellowTraveler> cause the first OT client will be JVM somehow and I'd like to add ability to have bitcoin addresses on there too, like a different color account type in the list or whatever.
1374 2011-03-29 19:46:30 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: nvidia gtx 260
1375 2011-03-29 19:46:39 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: and you have the absolute newest drivers?
1376 2011-03-29 19:46:45 <FellowTraveler> I wish I just had a simple java class that did the basic 2 or 3 functions (no mining necessary) just for displaying balances and sending amounts
1377 2011-03-29 19:46:49 Bosma has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
1378 2011-03-29 19:47:02 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: the newest ones from ubuntu repo, but it was working till earlier when the miner made me REISUB
1379 2011-03-29 19:47:03 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: because anything less than 26x.xx is broken afiak
1380 2011-03-29 19:47:04 <FellowTraveler> that way just throw it to the java guy while he's making the UI and having him put it in.
1381 2011-03-29 19:47:15 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: it is 26X
1382 2011-03-29 19:47:25 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: still, its a driver bug.
1383 2011-03-29 19:47:28 <Diablo-D3> try updating further
1384 2011-03-29 19:47:45 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: it was working till earlier?
1385 2011-03-29 19:48:01 <Diablo-D3> thats nvidia for you.
1386 2011-03-29 19:48:27 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: your miner is the thing that made me reisub in the first place
1387 2011-03-29 19:48:43 <Diablo-D3> try updating your driver to an even newer one
1388 2011-03-29 19:48:47 larsivi has joined
1389 2011-03-29 19:48:50 <Diablo-D3> remember to uninstall the nvidia debs first
1390 2011-03-29 19:48:51 <BlueMatt> arg
1391 2011-03-29 19:49:00 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: seriously, nvidia drivers are fucking shit
1392 2011-03-29 19:49:16 <Diablo-D3> they couldnt even run my miner "reliably" until like a year and a half after AMD could
1393 2011-03-29 19:50:19 <Kiba> so guys
1394 2011-03-29 19:50:37 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: "RuntimeError: Context failed: out of resources" help (from poclbm)
1395 2011-03-29 19:50:46 <Kiba> anybody like free/cheap advertising? You can do it now on bitcoinweekly!
1396 2011-03-29 19:51:10 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: somethings fucked on your install.
1397 2011-03-29 19:51:27 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: dpkg -l  | grep nvidia, and then apt-get remove --purge all those packages
1398 2011-03-29 19:51:34 <Diablo-D3> and then grab the nvidia installer off nvidia's site
1399 2011-03-29 19:51:35 <Diablo-D3> and install it
1400 2011-03-29 19:51:40 <Diablo-D3> and then reboot and pray
1401 2011-03-29 19:51:41 <BlueMatt> arg, alright
1402 2011-03-29 19:53:56 Lartza has quit (Quit: Lähdössä)
1403 2011-03-29 19:54:43 <unping> Kiba: can anyone submit an article, and does it have to be bitcoin related?
1404 2011-03-29 19:54:49 jackSmith has joined
1405 2011-03-29 19:56:31 <Kiba> unping: yes
1406 2011-03-29 19:56:33 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1407 2011-03-29 19:56:34 <Kiba> well
1408 2011-03-29 19:56:53 <Kiba> you pitch an article, if I like it, I will give you a deadline for your rough draft
1409 2011-03-29 19:57:10 <Kiba> after I review it, I give you a deadline for a final draft
1410 2011-03-29 19:57:31 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1411 2011-03-29 19:58:20 sabalaba has joined
1412 2011-03-29 19:58:28 <unping> gotcha
1413 2011-03-29 19:58:32 <unping> very cool idea, i like it.
1414 2011-03-29 19:59:21 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
1415 2011-03-29 19:59:23 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115648 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1279 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 4 hours, 49 minutes, and 26 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 74799.31311935
1416 2011-03-29 20:00:04 BlueMatt has joined
1417 2011-03-29 20:00:28 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: ok well a simple nvidia driver reinstall from apt and reinstall cuda libs worked
1418 2011-03-29 20:01:28 <Kiba> on witcoin, you're only good as the money you have
1419 2011-03-29 20:02:22 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: huh.
1420 2011-03-29 20:06:07 <BlueMatt> so...upnp anyone?
1421 2011-03-29 20:07:45 <JFK911> will that expose rpc?
1422 2011-03-29 20:08:00 <BlueMatt> JFK911: no, only port 8333
1423 2011-03-29 20:11:13 <JFK911> okay i wasn't sure how these things worked
1424 2011-03-29 20:11:24 <JFK911> my password is "abc123" i think i would be owned
1425 2011-03-29 20:11:38 <BlueMatt> it just maps whatever ports you set (currently GetDefaultPort() which simply returns 8333)
1426 2011-03-29 20:11:40 <JFK911> i guess you have to know the "user name" too
1427 2011-03-29 20:11:52 <BlueMatt> you might want to change that
1428 2011-03-29 20:14:35 <luke-jr> JFK911: UPnP *only* fixes the NAT problem
1429 2011-03-29 20:14:49 <luke-jr> JFK911: it doesn't change the behaviour of your system
1430 2011-03-29 20:15:22 <forrestv> why is the difficulty set every n blocks, instead of being set per block based on the time elapsed between the last block, and the block m blocks ago?
1431 2011-03-29 20:15:48 <luke-jr> forrestv: because Satoshi was silly? <.<
1432 2011-03-29 20:16:14 <forrestv> ah q:
1433 2011-03-29 20:16:29 <luke-jr> we *could* change that…
1434 2011-03-29 20:16:40 <luke-jr> in 2 steps
1435 2011-03-29 20:16:48 <BlueMatt> na, too much effort to change it and the possibility of accidentally forking the chain
1436 2011-03-29 20:16:54 <luke-jr> first, make new clients *accept* the moving-average difficulties as valid
1437 2011-03-29 20:17:05 <luke-jr> then once we have >50%, miners THEN begin making them
1438 2011-03-29 20:17:50 <luke-jr> it would make sense IMO to adjust a few other things first, though
1439 2011-03-29 20:17:55 <luke-jr> or rather, in the same break
1440 2011-03-29 20:18:05 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: like?
1441 2011-03-29 20:18:12 <luke-jr> possibly increase precision
1442 2011-03-29 20:18:38 <luke-jr> maybe make the generation rewards some even multiple of 2 so it divides cleanly
1443 2011-03-29 20:18:41 <BlueMatt> precision?
1444 2011-03-29 20:19:09 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: we can easily get 3 more digits* on the end
1445 2011-03-29 20:19:18 <BlueMatt> ah
1446 2011-03-29 20:19:39 <BlueMatt> mmm, not sure if thats really necessary, but if you are changing stuff might as well
1447 2011-03-29 20:19:46 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Divisibility_extension has a few conceptual things I toyed with
1448 2011-03-29 20:19:58 <BlueMatt> not that I think any of this is worth changing the clients for but...
1449 2011-03-29 20:20:24 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: what *would* be a useful function, IMO, is the ability to do 1⁄3 BTC exactly
1450 2011-03-29 20:20:38 <luke-jr> right now, you can do half or fifths, but not thirds
1451 2011-03-29 20:21:18 sabalaba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1452 2011-03-29 20:21:35 <BlueMatt> meh, again not worth changing clients imho
1453 2011-03-29 20:24:37 blablaa has joined
1454 2011-03-29 20:24:54 <jgarzik> Yeah...  does most of the current, or future, bitcoin population at large really care?  Doubtful.
1455 2011-03-29 20:25:39 dishwara1 has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
1456 2011-03-29 20:25:40 <forrestv> luke-jr, why is 1/3 BTC exactly useful?
1457 2011-03-29 20:25:57 <luke-jr> forrestv: 1⁄3 is a fairly common fraction
1458 2011-03-29 20:26:17 <Diablo-D3> yeah, its called .33 cents.
1459 2011-03-29 20:26:23 <lyspooner> lol
1460 2011-03-29 20:26:28 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: that isn't 1⁄3, idiot
1461 2011-03-29 20:26:42 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: it is on any 100 cents system
1462 2011-03-29 20:26:47 <Diablo-D3> no one cares about the dangling cent.
1463 2011-03-29 20:26:48 <lyspooner> 1/3 of a dollar is 33 cents luke-jr
1464 2011-03-29 20:26:57 <luke-jr> lyspooner: nope
1465 2011-03-29 20:27:08 <Diablo-D3> learn integer math.
1466 2011-03-29 20:27:08 <BlueMatt> who needs to pay exactly 1/3 of a btc?
1467 2011-03-29 20:27:12 <Blitzboom> 1/3 of a dollar is 34 cents
1468 2011-03-29 20:27:20 <Blitzboom> problem?
1469 2011-03-29 20:27:21 <Diablo-D3> Blitzboom: no, 33.
1470 2011-03-29 20:27:23 <lyspooner> my 1/3 of a dollar is 34 cents
1471 2011-03-29 20:27:29 <lyspooner> your 1/3 of a dollar is 33 cents
1472 2011-03-29 20:27:37 <Diablo-D3> no, math itself says its 33
1473 2011-03-29 20:27:38 <forrestv> 1/3 of a dollar is 33 cents with 2/3rds probability and 34 cents with 1/3 probability
1474 2011-03-29 20:27:41 <BlueMatt> I think Ill buy from lyspooner instead of Diablo-D3
1475 2011-03-29 20:27:42 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: nonsense
1476 2011-03-29 20:27:49 <Diablo-D3> its 3.~3, thus you round down.
1477 2011-03-29 20:28:00 <Blitzboom> haha forrestv
1478 2011-03-29 20:28:06 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: math doesn't round.
1479 2011-03-29 20:28:19 <Diablo-D3> otherwise your 3 for a dollar would cost 1.02
1480 2011-03-29 20:28:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: again, who the fuck needs to pay EXACTLY 1/3 of a btc?
1481 2011-03-29 20:28:49 <lyspooner> 1/3 of a paper dollar doesn't really exist
1482 2011-03-29 20:28:54 <blablaa> BlueMatt, it is a feature that could come handy
1483 2011-03-29 20:29:10 <BlueMatt> blablaa: in what case?
1484 2011-03-29 20:29:42 <blablaa> BlueMatt, transactions between industries?
1485 2011-03-29 20:29:55 <forrestv> in what case is 3 of an item exactly 1 dollar, anyway? with bitcoin's much vaunted precision and ease of use, we can set prices that aren't whole numbers
1486 2011-03-29 20:29:59 <forrestv> making the point moot
1487 2011-03-29 20:30:01 <luke-jr> in the case that idiots won't decide "well, we can't charge 1⁄3, so we'll make 1 item 50 cents"
1488 2011-03-29 20:30:04 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1489 2011-03-29 20:30:24 <Diablo-D3> 3 for a dollar is actually quite common
1490 2011-03-29 20:30:38 <luke-jr> forrestv: Bitcoin's precision is *barely* acceptable
1491 2011-03-29 20:30:49 <BlueMatt> people have done fine without .33333333 usd for a long time
1492 2011-03-29 20:31:05 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: by charging 50 cents for a "3 for $1" items
1493 2011-03-29 20:31:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: whats wrong with that?
1494 2011-03-29 20:31:23 <luke-jr> …….
1495 2011-03-29 20:31:34 <BlueMatt> bad for consumer but the shops gotta make money
1496 2011-03-29 20:31:46 <BlueMatt> plus they could just sell for .33 cents or .34
1497 2011-03-29 20:31:55 <Diablo-D3> .33
1498 2011-03-29 20:32:01 <luke-jr> could, but don't.
1499 2011-03-29 20:32:04 <BlueMatt> dont get into that again
1500 2011-03-29 20:32:06 <Diablo-D3> but do.
1501 2011-03-29 20:32:17 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1502 2011-03-29 20:32:18 <forrestv> the point i was trying to make is - paying 33 cents is no harder than paying 50 cents, because this is a digital currency
1503 2011-03-29 20:32:42 <forrestv> so they would have no reason to make it a round fraction of a dollar
1504 2011-03-29 20:32:49 sgornick has joined
1505 2011-03-29 20:32:54 <justmoon> if you need to split a bitcoin three ways, send everybody 0.33 BTC and 0.01 is the transaction fee :P
1506 2011-03-29 20:33:30 <forrestv> heh
1507 2011-03-29 20:34:28 <SykeP> no currency in use supports 1/3rd, so there's clearly no need for bitcoin to support it.
1508 2011-03-29 20:34:46 <BlueMatt> ^+1
1509 2011-03-29 20:34:52 <Blitzboom> +9001
1510 2011-03-29 20:35:00 <BlueMatt> ITS OVER 9000
1511 2011-03-29 20:35:09 <taco_the_paco> ha
1512 2011-03-29 20:35:09 <luke-jr> SykeP: if bitcoin has no benefits over currencies in use, then there is no reason to use bitcoin ;)
1513 2011-03-29 20:35:11 <SykeP> but but, i want 1/7th of a coin.
1514 2011-03-29 20:35:17 <SykeP> no, no, I want 1/11th of a coin
1515 2011-03-29 20:35:23 <BlueMatt> I want 1/215th
1516 2011-03-29 20:35:23 <SykeP> what about 1/13th of a coin?
1517 2011-03-29 20:35:28 <Blitzboom> noone wants 1/3 coin
1518 2011-03-29 20:35:31 <Blitzboom> deal with it
1519 2011-03-29 20:35:37 <blablaa> SykeP, there is an invention called "rational numbers"
1520 2011-03-29 20:35:52 <BlueMatt> blablaa: and they dont work well in binary computers
1521 2011-03-29 20:35:53 <blablaa> SykeP, never heard of it?
1522 2011-03-29 20:35:59 <jgarzik> too bad rational people have not yet been invented :)
1523 2011-03-29 20:36:08 <luke-jr> blablaa: 1/3, 1/7, and 1/11 are all rational numbers
1524 2011-03-29 20:36:17 <blablaa> BlueMatt, modern computers do multiplications very far
1525 2011-03-29 20:36:19 <blablaa> BlueMatt, modern computers do multiplications very fast
1526 2011-03-29 20:36:22 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: there is a difference between useful features and features which no one cards about
1527 2011-03-29 20:36:29 <SykeP> the world is decimal. deal with it.
1528 2011-03-29 20:36:38 <BlueMatt> blablaa: and I dont want 10000 0s at the end of my balance
1529 2011-03-29 20:36:51 <BlueMatt> for every tx, in every block
1530 2011-03-29 20:37:02 <lyspooner> i deal only in transcendental coins
1531 2011-03-29 20:37:11 <blablaa> luke-jr, that's the point.. there is no need of special code to handle 1/3 or 1/7 or 1/something
1532 2011-03-29 20:37:14 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: RE your pull request... can you glance at older bitcoin versions, <= 0.3.18, and see if -daemon was ever enabled on Windows?
1533 2011-03-29 20:37:18 <BlueMatt> I only use base 10000 coins
1534 2011-03-29 20:37:27 <luke-jr> we could use a base unit of 277,200 to get divisibility by 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14,15,16
1535 2011-03-29 20:37:43 puddinpop has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1536 2011-03-29 20:37:53 <blablaa> luke-jr, why not just rational numbers? two integers.
1537 2011-03-29 20:37:58 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: its in the downloads on the site and the fork() code used to be disabled if __WXMSW__
1538 2011-03-29 20:38:11 <luke-jr> blablaa: that might not be a bad idea :P
1539 2011-03-29 20:38:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: "its in the downloads on the site" - ENOPARSE
1540 2011-03-29 20:38:41 <blablaa> luke-jr, thx :)
1541 2011-03-29 20:38:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: bitcoin.org windows zip has bitcoind
1542 2011-03-29 20:38:54 <blablaa> luke-jr, your base of 277,200 is more creative
1543 2011-03-29 20:39:14 <luke-jr> we have 12 usable bits…
1544 2011-03-29 20:39:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: sure, but the command line argument -daemon do on version 0.3.18?
1545 2011-03-29 20:39:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: sure, but what did the command line argument -daemon do on version 0.3.18?
1546 2011-03-29 20:39:35 <luke-jr> so we could define them to be a denominator
1547 2011-03-29 20:39:43 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: on Windows
1548 2011-03-29 20:39:57 <luke-jr> that would allow divisions to 1⁄4096
1549 2011-03-29 20:40:03 <blablaa> luke-jr, now that i think about it.. why not also negative numbers.. debts?
1550 2011-03-29 20:40:06 <blablaa> luke-jr, :P
1551 2011-03-29 20:40:18 <blablaa> mathematicians have already invented all the abstractions..
1552 2011-03-29 20:40:19 <blablaa> heh
1553 2011-03-29 20:40:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: not sure that far back, but from what I see on github, for() etc was in an ifndef MSW (git blame shows that being comited by satoshi)
1554 2011-03-29 20:40:47 <luke-jr> blablaa: the problem with a simple fraction, is that now there are multiple ways to write "N units"
1555 2011-03-29 20:41:00 <luke-jr> perhaps each of the 12 bit combinations should be a prime?
1556 2011-03-29 20:41:03 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: fork() is but one implementation.  what about -daemon?
1557 2011-03-29 20:41:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yea my winvm takes a minute to boot...
1558 2011-03-29 20:41:48 <blablaa> luke-jr, you can always look at the smallest fraction..
1559 2011-03-29 20:41:48 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it is entirely possible for -daemon to work on Windows, _and_ "ifndef windows fork()" code to be present.
1560 2011-03-29 20:42:16 <luke-jr> 3,3,3,3,7,7,11,13,17,19,23,29
1561 2011-03-29 20:43:25 <SykeP> What we really need is simply to enable the full precision that's already built-in.
1562 2011-03-29 20:43:36 <blablaa> luke-jr, sorry, i had missed the explaination of why u're interested of the 12bits..
1563 2011-03-29 20:43:41 <luke-jr> SykeP: nothing to enable
1564 2011-03-29 20:43:49 <luke-jr> blablaa: shrug
1565 2011-03-29 20:43:56 <blablaa> luke-jr, u've 12bits for each.. ?
1566 2011-03-29 20:43:58 <SykeP> bitcoind sendtoaddress 12342342414123 1.2345678 will send 1.23
1567 2011-03-29 20:44:12 <SykeP> full precision is not enabled
1568 2011-03-29 20:44:30 <luke-jr> blablaa: right now, bitcoin values are stored at a 64-bit integer
1569 2011-03-29 20:44:37 <luke-jr> blablaa: but 21mil BTC only uses 51 bits max
1570 2011-03-29 20:44:44 <JFK911> im sure that guy is eager to send 0.00000001 btc tx spam
1571 2011-03-29 20:44:49 <luke-jr> that leaves 12 bits (plus a sign) for extension
1572 2011-03-29 20:44:49 <JFK911> hurry up and turn it on
1573 2011-03-29 20:45:00 <luke-jr> JFK911: it's already "on"
1574 2011-03-29 20:45:22 <blablaa> luke-jr, you could take the first 2^12 primes..
1575 2011-03-29 20:45:30 <blablaa> luke-jr, as denominators
1576 2011-03-29 20:45:31 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: huh, 0.3.18 bitcoin -daemon daemonizes properly but bitcoind -daemon doesnt, guess I didnt look close enough
1577 2011-03-29 20:45:43 <luke-jr> blablaa: but then you can't divide by more than one at a time
1578 2011-03-29 20:46:00 <blablaa> oh sorry, right..
1579 2011-03-29 20:46:02 <luke-jr> blablaa: which is necessary for non-primes
1580 2011-03-29 20:46:07 <luke-jr> actually…
1581 2011-03-29 20:46:09 * luke-jr ponders
1582 2011-03-29 20:46:23 <blablaa> with just 12bits, something has to be sacrificed :)
1583 2011-03-29 20:46:39 <luke-jr> yeah, you need non-prime denominators for eg 1⁄9
1584 2011-03-29 20:47:00 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: Thanks for checking
1585 2011-03-29 20:47:10 <luke-jr> it might make sense to use only 3 bits for thirds, though
1586 2011-03-29 20:47:26 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1587 2011-03-29 20:47:38 alias420 has left ()
1588 2011-03-29 20:47:48 <luke-jr> but even with that scheme, one can say 3⁄3
1589 2011-03-29 20:47:52 <luke-jr> not sure how to 'defeat' that
1590 2011-03-29 20:47:55 <luke-jr> or if we need to
1591 2011-03-29 20:48:01 <blablaa> luke-jr, what about the "sign"? that is far more interesting topic..
1592 2011-03-29 20:48:10 * JFK911 sends luke -100 btc
1593 2011-03-29 20:48:14 <JFK911> sorry
1594 2011-03-29 20:48:18 <JFK911> -100 1/3 btc
1595 2011-03-29 20:48:23 <blablaa> luke-jr, than rationals :)
1596 2011-03-29 20:49:05 alias420 has joined
1597 2011-03-29 20:49:18 <luke-jr> blablaa: the sign is a sign, like it always is
1598 2011-03-29 20:49:51 <blablaa> luke-jr, but what is the interretation of negative BTCs?
1599 2011-03-29 20:50:18 <JFK911> it's for the ledger
1600 2011-03-29 20:50:19 <blablaa> *interpretation
1601 2011-03-29 20:51:57 bitcoinbulletin has joined
1602 2011-03-29 20:55:50 <luke-jr> blablaa: negative
1603 2011-03-29 20:56:56 <luke-jr> we could limit the most BTC in a tx to 5.6 million, which only uses 49 bits
1604 2011-03-29 20:57:06 <luke-jr> that leaves 15 :p
1605 2011-03-29 20:57:22 <luke-jr> 14 after sign
1606 2011-03-29 20:57:44 <luke-jr> blablaa: while you can't *send* negative, people will want to hold negative amounts in software
1607 2011-03-29 20:58:59 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, iirc the otw numbers are unsigned
1608 2011-03-29 21:02:37 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1609 2011-03-29 21:12:56 Spenvo has joined
1610 2011-03-29 21:15:52 eao has joined
1611 2011-03-29 21:19:25 <xelister> re usafags printing slogans about "GOD" and how they are blessed -> http://i.imgur.com/l7gRn.png
1612 2011-03-29 21:19:25 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1613 2011-03-29 21:19:32 <xelister> *on their money bills
1614 2011-03-29 21:19:51 * xelister did not reviewed this post/image for correctness, just found it a bit interesting
1615 2011-03-29 21:20:40 keegi has joined
1616 2011-03-29 21:20:58 <keegi> hello
1617 2011-03-29 21:23:09 <phantomcircuit> xelister, well yeah and the swastika is still used by hindus today, that totally godwins an otherwise good insight
1618 2011-03-29 21:23:16 <phantomcircuit> and entirely needlessly too
1619 2011-03-29 21:23:57 <keegi> I have possibly silly question. Sorry if this is FAQ and because I did not delve too deep into the mechanism, but it was not obvious from the superficial overviews that I have read. So the question is - at the point when 21 million BTC have been given out, where will the new blocks to store transactions come from?
1620 2011-03-29 21:24:13 <nanotube> blocks still get generated
1621 2011-03-29 21:24:14 <nanotube> forever
1622 2011-03-29 21:24:21 <keegi> just not for reward?
1623 2011-03-29 21:24:37 <phantomcircuit> keegi, transactions have optional fees
1624 2011-03-29 21:24:48 <phantomcircuit> keegi, the fees will eventually sustain the block generation
1625 2011-03-29 21:25:23 <nanotube> see ,,(bc,wiki transaction fees)
1626 2011-03-29 21:25:24 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees | Mar 2, 2011 ... Transaction fees may be included with any transfer of bitcoins from one address to another. At the moment, many transactions are typically ...
1627 2011-03-29 21:25:25 <keegi> aha, the fees for transactions being put into the block are incentive for generating another block
1628 2011-03-29 21:25:30 <keegi> thanks
1629 2011-03-29 21:25:36 <nanotube> yep. np :)
1630 2011-03-29 21:27:07 <phantomcircuit> on a more important note
1631 2011-03-29 21:27:14 <phantomcircuit> ARGh SQLITE SUCKS
1632 2011-03-29 21:27:17 <phantomcircuit> that is all
1633 2011-03-29 21:29:51 <nanotube> submit a patch ;)
1634 2011-03-29 21:31:08 <Kiba> hmm..AMD have the bitcoin digging equipment sewed up for now
1635 2011-03-29 21:31:10 puddinpop has joined
1636 2011-03-29 21:31:46 <Kiba> bitcoin mining equipment market sewed up
1637 2011-03-29 21:36:56 renderer has joined
1638 2011-03-29 21:39:13 <renderer> Is anybody here?  I have a really basic question about Bitcoin.  What makes Bitcoins valuable?  Why are they desirable to own?
1639 2011-03-29 21:39:31 darkskiez has joined
1640 2011-03-29 21:39:48 darksk1ez has joined
1641 2011-03-29 21:39:51 darksk1ez has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1642 2011-03-29 21:41:20 <nanotube> renderer: at the core - supply and demand.
1643 2011-03-29 21:41:39 <nanotube> that's what sets the price for coins
1644 2011-03-29 21:42:55 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, oh i submitted a patch for sqlalchemy that improved sqlite BINARY column type affinity by 100x
1645 2011-03-29 21:43:00 <phantomcircuit> nanotube, ridiculousness
1646 2011-03-29 21:43:08 <renderer> I have been studying money systems for a few years now.  I think I have a good understanding of real-world economics in general.  I can see that supply is limited (if your technology is good).
1647 2011-03-29 21:43:12 alex5771 has joined
1648 2011-03-29 21:43:27 <renderer> but I don't see any root *demand*
1649 2011-03-29 21:43:44 <phantomcircuit> renderer, why is there demand for anything?
1650 2011-03-29 21:43:47 <unping> if only 10 people in the world used dollars, nobody would want those either.
1651 2011-03-29 21:43:53 <renderer> Bitcoins do not convey a valuable commodity, nor do they represent an obligation of service, nor do they settle tax bills.
1652 2011-03-29 21:44:12 <phantomcircuit> renderer, bitcoins are analogous to gold
1653 2011-03-29 21:44:20 <nanotube> renderer: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoins_have_no_intrinsic_value_(unlike_some_other_things)
1654 2011-03-29 21:44:25 <blablaa> renderer, faith in "supply and demand", desire to protest against central bankers and bankers, pleasure to "make money" in the literal sense.. :)
1655 2011-03-29 21:44:40 <renderer> dollars have value because if you don't have them, you can't work (if you're American), because you have to pay Income Tax in dollars
1656 2011-03-29 21:44:47 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
1657 2011-03-29 21:44:51 <blablaa> renderer, maybe there are others too.
1658 2011-03-29 21:45:01 <Blitzboom> renderer: you don’t want a decentralized currency if you want an entity that backs it up
1659 2011-03-29 21:45:11 <Blitzboom> fiat money should work fine then
1660 2011-03-29 21:45:16 <phantomcircuit> renderer, you can work for barter actually and then settle up with the IRS at the end of the year in dollars using an exchange rate
1661 2011-03-29 21:45:31 <alex5771> ok people I just got help up by some punk...so i go on a street and he pulls out a gun on me and asks for my money,so i go for my wallet and he is like u can keep that paper to wipe ur behind with,he demands a password to my bitcoin wallet on the android device i have so i gave it to him cause he threatened to kill me,anyway to get it back ?
1662 2011-03-29 21:46:13 <phantomcircuit> alex5771, no just like you cant get back the paper
1663 2011-03-29 21:46:21 <nanotube> right
1664 2011-03-29 21:46:34 <nanotube> just like with paper - don't carry around too much of it.
1665 2011-03-29 21:48:17 <alex5771> yea what i wrote was a joke,i guess BC will go mainstream when people get robbed for it
1666 2011-03-29 21:48:54 <blablaa> phantomcircuit, you can work but you've to sell the product to the owner of dollars
1667 2011-03-29 21:49:05 <blablaa> phantomcircuit, so in practice the mechanism works :)
1668 2011-03-29 21:49:20 <renderer> working for barter is no good if you still need the dollars for taxes.  I don't think there is any example of a currency with no intrinsic value, no root demand - apart from maybe Yap Stones (a kind of physical bookkeeping system)
1669 2011-03-29 21:49:41 <phantomcircuit> blablaa, what?
1670 2011-03-29 21:50:02 <renderer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
1671 2011-03-29 21:50:10 <blablaa> <phantomcircuit> renderer, you can work for barter actually and then settle up with the IRS at the end of the year in dollars using an exchange rate
1672 2011-03-29 21:50:20 <phantomcircuit> blablaa, sure but there is effectively no difference between having to pay taxes in dollars or in bitcoins assuming very high liquidity
1673 2011-03-29 21:50:22 <blablaa> phantomcircuit, in the end this pushes up the "value" of the dollar
1674 2011-03-29 21:51:09 <alex5771> however a related question is,say if password is stolen  for my wallet is it possible to trace the coins as they are being spend,they ecerything gets reported to the p2p system can IP's be traced?
1675 2011-03-29 21:51:22 <phantomcircuit> blablaa, sure but it's only temporary
1676 2011-03-29 21:52:08 <blablaa> phantomcircuit, no.. every time you pay taxes, wealth is transferred to owners of dollars
1677 2011-03-29 21:52:10 <phantomcircuit> blablaa, if everybody used bitcoins the conversion from dollars to bitcoins would be etr:1
1678 2011-03-29 21:53:28 <blablaa> etr?
1679 2011-03-29 21:53:44 <phantomcircuit> effective tax rate
1680 2011-03-29 21:53:44 <blablaa> renderer, the bookkeeping argument is interesting.
1681 2011-03-29 21:53:48 <renderer> I do desire a decentralised currency.  I think the technical aspects of BC are very credible.  But without a root demand, intrinsic value or taxing government, I do not expect it to work.
1682 2011-03-29 21:54:09 <SykeP> but it does already work
1683 2011-03-29 21:54:19 <SykeP> whether you believe or not
1684 2011-03-29 21:54:41 doostesh has joined
1685 2011-03-29 21:54:49 <blablaa> SykeP, but it could fail in future
1686 2011-03-29 21:55:01 <SykeP> and of course fiat currencies never fail
1687 2011-03-29 21:55:42 <renderer> Is there a graph of exchage rate against physical commodities over time?  I don't expect a stable exchange because the demand seems to be little more that enthusiasts and idealists trying it out.
1688 2011-03-29 21:55:49 <SykeP> and my us dollar bank could never fail, right?
1689 2011-03-29 21:55:51 <blablaa> SykeP, sure they do fail
1690 2011-03-29 21:56:14 <renderer> when a similar currency with intrinsic demand appears, BCs will become worthless (demand evaporates)
1691 2011-03-29 21:56:14 <blablaa> renderer, there is the exchange rate with the dollar
1692 2011-03-29 21:56:17 <nanotube> renderer: what props up gold, without 'root demand' and 'a government to prop them up' ?
1693 2011-03-29 21:56:34 <renderer> a very good question
1694 2011-03-29 21:56:35 <alex5771> renderer:there is requirment for taxing authority,there is just requirment for demand,in fiat currency thats provided by taxation,in BC world it can be provided by some big Wallmart or Amazon which would accept BC for lots of goods and services,more stores like that just streighten the currency
1695 2011-03-29 21:56:54 <blablaa> nanotube, gold industrial uses?
1696 2011-03-29 21:57:25 sabalaba has joined
1697 2011-03-29 21:57:30 <renderer> gold used to be in demand because it is distinctive, virtually counterfeit-free, and kings demanded taxes in coins of the stuff
1698 2011-03-29 21:57:32 <nanotube> blablaa: industrial demand for gold doesn't justify nearly the current price.
1699 2011-03-29 21:57:40 <nanotube> renderer: used to be.
1700 2011-03-29 21:57:50 <blablaa> nanotube, you've to take into account expected future uses too
1701 2011-03-29 21:58:03 <renderer> no.  Gold is as scarce as Bismuth.  Bit Bismuth is 1/100 the price - and more useful
1702 2011-03-29 21:58:27 <nanotube> the current world supply of gold,relative to its expected industrial use, is orders of magnitude larger.
1703 2011-03-29 21:58:45 <nanotube> most of the value is simply due to people using it as a store of value, and hedge against fiat currency inflation.
1704 2011-03-29 21:58:48 <renderer> the bankers own lots of gold.  They make the rules.  If they say gold henceforth is valid for taxation and/or issuing credit, it has value
1705 2011-03-29 21:58:52 <blablaa> nanotube, it has low storage costs, so why not mine it now and use it later?
1706 2011-03-29 21:58:53 <renderer> (I hold silver)
1707 2011-03-29 21:58:57 <nanotube> (in other word, not by 'intristic value')
1708 2011-03-29 21:58:58 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1709 2011-03-29 21:59:12 <nanotube> blablaa: storage costs low, but mining costs not so low. :)
1710 2011-03-29 21:59:47 doostesh has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1711 2011-03-29 21:59:53 <renderer> gold doesn't have a stable exchange rate (eg with grains, property etc).  It appeared to be in terminal decline 15 years ago
1712 2011-03-29 21:59:55 <blablaa> nanotube, still, the only things that make it special is the really high weight/volume..
1713 2011-03-29 22:00:12 <blablaa> *the only property
1714 2011-03-29 22:00:25 <blablaa> uhm sorry, confused :)
1715 2011-03-29 22:00:34 <renderer> so I don't think gold is a good example of something with intrinsic value, stable as a currency.
1716 2011-03-29 22:01:10 <renderer> gold is more a fashion - like Beeny Babes, diamonds, exotic stamps
1717 2011-03-29 22:01:10 <nanotube> but as a medium of exchange, bitcoin has a combination of properties that make in unparalleled. easy verifiability, transferability, divisibility, scarcity, durability...
1718 2011-03-29 22:01:19 <nanotube> nothing else has the full complement of these.
1719 2011-03-29 22:02:01 <blablaa> nanotube, i see no need of any medium of exchange?
1720 2011-03-29 22:02:09 <blablaa> nanotube, on the other hand, i see need of bookkeeping.
1721 2011-03-29 22:02:25 <nanotube> blablaa: bitcoin is a means of decentralized bookkeeping.
1722 2011-03-29 22:02:44 <renderer> BC has these essential properties.  So the web pages tell me.  But as a medium of exchange, lacking root demand, lacking intrinsic value, lacking tax demand results in unstable value, probably ending in zero.
1723 2011-03-29 22:03:09 <nanotube> well, time will tell. :)
1724 2011-03-29 22:03:16 <renderer> perhaps you guys are hoping BC will operate by a "social contract"?
1725 2011-03-29 22:03:34 <blablaa> renderer, i also think so, so i'm here to watch how it'll play out :)
1726 2011-03-29 22:03:36 <nanotube> maybe anonymous transactions is one source of 'root demand'
1727 2011-03-29 22:04:05 <nanotube> heh that's what we're all here for. with varying degrees of participation. :)
1728 2011-03-29 22:04:08 <renderer> it's not what I call "root" because it doesn't tereminate a transfer chain.
1729 2011-03-29 22:04:40 <blablaa> renderer, bookkeping idea may has some merits
1730 2011-03-29 22:04:56 <blablaa> renderer, being rich in bitcoin could give social status maybe?
1731 2011-03-29 22:05:14 <blablaa> renderer, *maybe has some merits
1732 2011-03-29 22:05:35 <nanotube> just a different definition of 'root' ;) you assume 'use bitcoins themselves ultimately for something like ... eating them'. i mean, use them ultimately as a convenient means of exchange.
1733 2011-03-29 22:06:07 <renderer> I see BC was worth $0.0025 on May 22 2010 ($25 worth of pizza for 10,000 BC)
1734 2011-03-29 22:06:29 <blablaa> renderer, it went up due to slashdot
1735 2011-03-29 22:06:35 <unping> heh
1736 2011-03-29 22:06:41 <renderer> and in November, worth $0.50.
1737 2011-03-29 22:07:10 <blablaa> then $1.. now falling again..
1738 2011-03-29 22:07:18 <renderer> if the value fluctuates wildly, it may attract speculative holdings too - which do the system no good
1739 2011-03-29 22:08:04 <blablaa> nanotube, facebook, youtoube.. people are competing for listing as many friends as possible..
1740 2011-03-29 22:08:10 <blablaa> nanotube, "root value" :D
1741 2011-03-29 22:08:11 <blablaa> hehe
1742 2011-03-29 22:08:24 <renderer> Personally, I would design a currency by first analysing the economics, with implementation design being last
1743 2011-03-29 22:08:50 <blablaa> facebook and myspace, sorry.
1744 2011-03-29 22:09:18 <nanotube> heh
1745 2011-03-29 22:09:41 <renderer> BC seems to be crypto driving the implementation, without regard to economics (at least according to conventional economic theory)
1746 2011-03-29 22:09:51 <nanotube> renderer: so according to your logic... step1: set up a government that taxes people in renderer-coins ... ? :)
1747 2011-03-29 22:10:19 <renderer> that would be a valid way of doing it.
1748 2011-03-29 22:11:09 <phantomcircuit> good luck with that
1749 2011-03-29 22:11:18 <renderer> you can do it with contractual agreements to supply goods and/or services (see the "Real Bills Doctrine")
1750 2011-03-29 22:12:04 <nanotube> renderer: nobody's stopping you from setting up a store selling "stuff" in exchange for bitcoins.
1751 2011-03-29 22:12:06 <renderer> you can do it with agreements to exchange the currency for stored commodities too
1752 2011-03-29 22:13:30 <phantomcircuit> renderer, so what you're saying is, we should have gotten people to agree to pay us for services with something that we have not yet implemented?
1753 2011-03-29 22:13:32 <phantomcircuit> uh huh
1754 2011-03-29 22:13:35 <renderer> taxation, contracts for goods and/or services, exchangability are plausible root demands.  In each case, the currency is "consumed" by being redeemed for one of these uses
1755 2011-03-29 22:13:39 <phantomcircuit> ill get right on that ;)
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1757 2011-03-29 22:14:14 <blablaa> renderer, social status is plausible?
1758 2011-03-29 22:14:14 <renderer> historically, cows were used as currency (hence "pecuniary" from Latin pecunia)
1759 2011-03-29 22:14:43 <renderer> also, grains have been used (rice, wheat especially)
1760 2011-03-29 22:15:02 <nanotube> renderer: we already have de-facto exchangability between bitcoins and a bunch of stuff - not least of which is existing fiat currencies.
1761 2011-03-29 22:15:08 <nanotube> so i guess that part of your plan is satisfied?
1762 2011-03-29 22:15:09 <renderer> and the grains moved to certificates for grains in a granary (eg ancient Egypt)
1763 2011-03-29 22:15:59 <renderer> exchange is not redemption.  It provides an intermediate demand, not a final (root) demand
1764 2011-03-29 22:16:21 <unping> how do you "redeem" a dollar?
1765 2011-03-29 22:16:41 <renderer> the reason people want to exchange for it is because somebody else will need it
1766 2011-03-29 22:16:51 <nanotube> same with bitcoin :)
1767 2011-03-29 22:17:02 <renderer> you redeem dollars against taxation to the IRS or state government
1768 2011-03-29 22:17:25 <unping> ... so it's being exchanged to a different party and/or for a service...
1769 2011-03-29 22:17:37 <phantomcircuit> renderer, which is supposedly for a service
1770 2011-03-29 22:17:46 <renderer> that is the root demand.  When governments stop collecting taxes, currencies lose value (except numismatic value)
1771 2011-03-29 22:17:52 <blablaa> unping, the government is the issuer, it doesn't "need" dollars in any sense
1772 2011-03-29 22:18:02 <unping> the fed is the issuer ;-]
1773 2011-03-29 22:18:11 <blablaa> well, it is a branch of the gov :)
1774 2011-03-29 22:18:13 <unping> the fed != gov
1775 2011-03-29 22:18:17 <unping> hehe ya true
1776 2011-03-29 22:18:42 <blablaa> unping, the issuer buying back his notes is called "redemption"..
1777 2011-03-29 22:18:43 <renderer> exactly.  the US govt doesn't "need" dollars.  It takes them out of circulation (actually settles T-bills at The Fed)
1778 2011-03-29 22:18:51 <blablaa> or taxing back
1779 2011-03-29 22:19:01 <EvanR-work> er. the government could raise money without taxes
1780 2011-03-29 22:19:17 <EvanR-work> then dollars become like shares
1781 2011-03-29 22:19:49 <renderer> in every successful currency, there is an ultimate *use*, where it is used up, (or stockpiled by the king for precious metals)
1782 2011-03-29 22:20:48 <blablaa> renderer, stockpiling isn't an use.. but we can presume it happens due to the expectation of a future use
1783 2011-03-29 22:20:50 <renderer> the government coult try to raise money without taxes.  But public sector employees need a means of using up their pay
1784 2011-03-29 22:21:11 <EvanR-work> uhm
1785 2011-03-29 22:21:23 <EvanR-work> why do they suddenly have no way to use their pay
1786 2011-03-29 22:21:36 st-16473 has joined
1787 2011-03-29 22:22:07 <renderer> sensible people cease to accept currency they can see has no root demand.  In fact they dispose of what they have
1788 2011-03-29 22:22:25 <renderer> when root demand ceases, hyperinflation is not far away
1789 2011-03-29 22:22:30 <blablaa> renderer, i agree with you mostly but there is an idea that i can't rule out for sure
1790 2011-03-29 22:22:31 st-16473 has quit (Client Quit)
1791 2011-03-29 22:22:39 <blablaa> renderer, namely, the "bookkeeping" or "social status" use
1792 2011-03-29 22:22:55 <renderer> (check out the history of the Assignats and the Mandats in pre-revolutionary France (1780s-1790s))
1793 2011-03-29 22:23:03 <renderer> yes?
1794 2011-03-29 22:23:37 <renderer> a key aspect of distributed currency is high integrity, shared bookkeeping
1795 2011-03-29 22:23:55 <renderer> and that is something which BC is designed for
1796 2011-03-29 22:23:56 <blablaa> renderer, the uselessness of useless stuff is useful to prove u're rich :P
1797 2011-03-29 22:23:59 <blablaa> renderer, hehe.
1798 2011-03-29 22:24:24 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1800 2011-03-29 22:24:57 <renderer> once you have established a currency system, banks can promise to pay people, and the promises can be used as a derived currency
1801 2011-03-29 22:25:30 <renderer> the effect is that the demand for the derived currency is to repay bank debts.  That's about where the world is today
1802 2011-03-29 22:25:37 <blablaa> renderer, yes
1803 2011-03-29 22:26:01 <blablaa> renderer, another use of money is that it improves your creditworthness
1804 2011-03-29 22:26:09 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1805 2011-03-29 22:26:18 <blablaa> renderer, maybe bitcoin could end up being used in this way?
1806 2011-03-29 22:26:24 <blablaa> the "final use" could be this?
1807 2011-03-29 22:26:40 <renderer> I don't see technology for BC lending comparable to fractional reserve at banks.  A good thing, but something that needs to be kept that way
1808 2011-03-29 22:26:55 <sipa> 1/3 of a dollar has no solution in the natural numbers
1809 2011-03-29 22:26:58 <EvanR-work> hey
1810 2011-03-29 22:27:09 <sipa> oh, i didn't up to here
1811 2011-03-29 22:27:16 <EvanR-work> this is the dev channel. take it to #bitcoin-politics!! ;)
1812 2011-03-29 22:27:45 <EvanR-work> sipa: zero remainder one ;)
1813 2011-03-29 22:28:43 <nanotube> renderer: so essentially, you're saying that there's a bootstrapping problem? that once bitcoin becomes widespread enough that people have reasonable expectation that bitcoins they receive today will be accepted by someone else tomorrow, we're 'home free' ?
1814 2011-03-29 22:28:53 <renderer> as you can tell, I'm new here... is there a #bitcoin-politics?
1815 2011-03-29 22:29:05 adlsaks has joined
1816 2011-03-29 22:29:06 <EvanR-work> there is now ;)
1817 2011-03-29 22:29:15 <nanotube> renderer: it's pretty new. :)
1818 2011-03-29 22:29:23 <blablaa> renderer, given u like history, u should know there are no examples of developed economies without normal ("fractional reserve") banks
1819 2011-03-29 22:29:40 <nanotube> renderer: try "/msg alis list *bitcoin*" for a list of channels containing bitcoin.
1820 2011-03-29 22:30:00 <EvanR-work> there are however failed economies with normal banks
1821 2011-03-29 22:30:13 <EvanR-work> but correlation doesnt imply causation
1822 2011-03-29 22:30:38 <renderer> I don't think there's a bootstrapping problem.  Modern banks have bootstrapped themselves into existence using governments to help them.  But they are now enforced with violence (and threats thereof).  If you don't pay your mortgage debts, the sheriff comes around and forces you out
1823 2011-03-29 22:31:07 <EvanR-work> is that part of the contract
1824 2011-03-29 22:31:21 <EvanR-work> you agree to forclosure
1825 2011-03-29 22:31:23 <renderer> if you did have a large user base, it could survive for a longer while
1826 2011-03-29 22:31:40 <blablaa> EvanR-work, periodic failure is better than sure stagnation
1827 2011-03-29 22:32:02 <blablaa> EvanR, 19th century was better than middle ages
1828 2011-03-29 22:32:03 <renderer> yes.  But it also means the banks can issue more money, and people want to take it - a derived demand
1829 2011-03-29 22:32:25 <EvanR-work> blablaa: oh, a progressive!
1830 2011-03-29 22:32:42 Bosma has joined
1831 2011-03-29 22:33:54 <blablaa> EvanR-work, what is the point?
1832 2011-03-29 22:34:41 <renderer> If the lack of root demand for BC is seen as a problem, somebody will make a similar system which has root demand.  Then the holders of BC may switch, increasing their supply in the market.
1833 2011-03-29 22:34:59 <xelister> about tax
1834 2011-03-29 22:35:06 <xelister> I do not know how it happens in usafaggistan
1835 2011-03-29 22:35:14 <EvanR-work> you think people care about root demand?
1836 2011-03-29 22:35:16 <xelister> but in many countries, you can pay tax in goods
1837 2011-03-29 22:35:37 <blablaa> EvanR-work, i just don't want silly regulation of credit like in the middle ages
1838 2011-03-29 22:35:40 <xelister> or if you do not, then first a debt-collector sales your stuff. Theoretically, he could sell bitcoins too, esp large amount
1839 2011-03-29 22:36:05 <renderer> people care when their currency hyperinflates.  Market prices are set by Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand"
1840 2011-03-29 22:36:27 <EvanR-work> blablaa: that makes sense
1841 2011-03-29 22:36:35 <renderer> where can you pay tax in goods, xelister?
1842 2011-03-29 22:36:48 <blablaa> EvanR-work, and people who deny the yield curve DO ARE silly
1843 2011-03-29 22:37:02 <xelister> renderer: Im sure a debt collector (what was the correct english term) should sell your valuable stuff, e.g. to get money that you owe because of tax
1844 2011-03-29 22:37:23 <xelister> renderer: so it would work that way, if not normally, then the hard-way with tax collector involved
1845 2011-03-29 22:37:27 <xelister> s/tax/debt
1846 2011-03-29 22:37:31 <xelister> bbl
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1848 2011-03-29 22:38:33 <renderer> the goods may be sold for money.  But it is the money which is redeemed for the tax.  The goods stay in the private sector, and the money disappears
1849 2011-03-29 22:41:11 <renderer> On a slightly different topic, a system of credit would be really useful...
1850 2011-03-29 22:41:34 <renderer> but it's getting late here, so I'm off.  Thanks for your ideas, everybody!
1851 2011-03-29 22:41:46 <blablaa> renderer, would have to be linked with physical people to be useful..
1852 2011-03-29 22:41:58 <blablaa> renderer, but it would be useful..
1853 2011-03-29 22:41:59 <nanotube> system of credit... something like ripple-project.org? :)
1854 2011-03-29 22:43:17 <renderer> yes, blaablaa.  I think credit needs to be linked to real people.  But credit can flow through anonymous intermediaries
1855 2011-03-29 22:43:28 topace has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1856 2011-03-29 22:43:40 <renderer> ripple sounds interesting, nano, but I don't recall the details
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1860 2011-03-29 22:46:11 <renderer> Ripple doesn't define a unit of account, as AFAICS
1861 2011-03-29 22:46:35 <renderer> you get to choose a pre-existing one, it seems
1862 2011-03-29 22:46:42 <blablaa> renderer, u still haven't answered on my "social status" conjecture..
1863 2011-03-29 22:46:48 <blablaa> renderer, and to my query ;)
1864 2011-03-29 22:47:49 justmoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1865 2011-03-29 22:47:50 <nanotube> renderer: yes - but i suppose poeple can define whatever unit of account they wish
1866 2011-03-29 22:47:54 <nanotube> just set up your own ripple instance
1867 2011-03-29 22:48:03 <nanotube> and set it to use renderer-credits
1868 2011-03-29 22:48:08 <nanotube> and you're off to the races.
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1872 2011-03-29 22:51:09 <renderer> As regards social status, blaablaa, I do not believe that it can provide a root demand for a currency.  It doesn't provide for a stable unit of account, nor does it provide a means to redeem units in the real world.  Maybe I don't understand your idea
1873 2011-03-29 22:51:42 <blablaa> renderer, what is the final utility of luxury goods?
1874 2011-03-29 22:52:31 <blablaa> renderer, mainly, to display that you can afford them
1875 2011-03-29 22:53:04 <renderer> I see your point.  If collecting BC was a means to show off, I don;t think it would work.  just a hunch
1876 2011-03-29 22:53:27 <renderer> perhaps that can give sustained value to geeks for a while
1877 2011-03-29 22:53:30 <blablaa> renderer, me neither in reality. But that's how i would defend btc if i had to :D
1878 2011-03-29 22:53:37 <blablaa> renderer, that's the best defense that i can think of.
1879 2011-03-29 22:54:24 <renderer> "u should know there are no examples of developed economies without normal ("fractional reserve") banks"
1880 2011-03-29 22:54:40 <renderer> actually, teh Bank of Amsterdam is a counter-example
1881 2011-03-29 22:55:06 <renderer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Amsterdam
1882 2011-03-29 22:55:49 <renderer> the fact that a developed economy attracts parasites says nothing about the parasites value to the host
1883 2011-03-29 22:56:12 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1884 2011-03-29 22:56:12 <blablaa> renderer, holland was surely full of banks. One safekeeping institutions proves nothing.
1885 2011-03-29 22:56:19 <blablaa> renderer, safekeeping has nothing to do with banks
1886 2011-03-29 22:57:08 <devon_hillard> we'll give the sheep to the wolves for safekeeping :p
1887 2011-03-29 22:57:10 <renderer> I don't think there were developed banks then.  Certainly the BoA offered services unlike anyone else
1888 2011-03-29 22:57:29 <devon_hillard> we'll just eat sheep IOUs
1889 2011-03-29 22:58:03 <renderer> the BoA was successful, but would probably have been undermined by fractional reserve lenders
1890 2011-03-29 22:58:17 <blablaa> renderer, sure there were banks. Without banks, growth is purely accidental. Only the top 1% has the possibility to start new ventures.
1891 2011-03-29 22:58:32 <renderer> (remember this was before the Bank of Engand)
1892 2011-03-29 22:58:32 <devon_hillard> please note that fractional reserve is not strictly inflationary
1893 2011-03-29 22:58:49 st-16714 has quit (Quit: Quiting...)
1894 2011-03-29 22:59:28 <blablaa> renderer, how does the enterpreneur obtains the capital he needs to start?
1895 2011-03-29 22:59:46 <renderer> with shareholders contributing
1896 2011-03-29 23:00:21 <renderer> or on credit
1897 2011-03-29 23:00:25 <blablaa> renderer, only the largest companies can sell shares
1898 2011-03-29 23:00:46 <blablaa> renderer, and very few people want to hold long term bonds
1899 2011-03-29 23:01:25 <renderer> every joint stock company sells shares? what do you mean only large companies can?
1900 2011-03-29 23:01:51 <renderer> what banks were operating in Holland in the late 1500s?
1901 2011-03-29 23:02:59 <renderer> did they issue bank notes?
1902 2011-03-29 23:03:07 <blablaa> sure
1903 2011-03-29 23:03:15 <blablaa> wait
1904 2011-03-29 23:04:56 redMBA has joined
1905 2011-03-29 23:05:29 <blablaa> renderer, basically, bank of amsterdam was established to counter the mess done by private bankers?
1906 2011-03-29 23:05:30 <renderer> if you are right, that every developed economy has fractional reserve banks, there should be a corresponding function with BC.  But I think mutual credit is the way things should be going
1907 2011-03-29 23:06:09 <renderer> BoA was created to reduce transaction costs for merchants trading in and around the area
1908 2011-03-29 23:06:38 <renderer> reduce the weight of money to carry
1909 2011-03-29 23:06:55 <renderer> reduce the uncertainty about weight and integrity
1910 2011-03-29 23:07:12 <renderer> a public serevice by the city
1911 2011-03-29 23:07:39 <blablaa> renderer, yes, because private bankers were making profits on bad coins
1912 2011-03-29 23:07:53 <renderer> paper from a bank of good integrity is worth more than dodgy bits of metal
1913 2011-03-29 23:08:34 <renderer> lots of scumbags were clipping, slaking coins.  Or counterfeiting
1914 2011-03-29 23:08:58 <phantomcircuit> renderer, is that a serious argument?
1915 2011-03-29 23:09:12 <phantomcircuit> because nobody has ever counterfeit federal reserve notes
1916 2011-03-29 23:09:12 <renderer> how do private bankers make profits from bad coin?
1917 2011-03-29 23:09:14 <phantomcircuit> no sir
1918 2011-03-29 23:09:24 <blablaa> renderer, yes, but a public service against counterfeiters is not what caused growth in holland
1919 2011-03-29 23:09:38 <blablaa> renderer, what caused growth were the bankers engaged in credit
1920 2011-03-29 23:09:53 <blablaa> renderer, that people with ideas had the possibility to get loans
1921 2011-03-29 23:10:23 <renderer> FRNs cam a few centuries later.  The question is what role did the BoA (Bank of Amsterdam) have in promoting and developing the economy
1922 2011-03-29 23:10:28 <phantomcircuit> bleh
1923 2011-03-29 23:10:39 <phantomcircuit> it takes fully 11 seconds to merge 500 blocks into the sqlite db
1924 2011-03-29 23:10:45 <phantomcircuit> without any contention at all
1925 2011-03-29 23:10:52 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1926 2011-03-29 23:11:34 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,stats
1927 2011-03-29 23:11:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 115675 | Current Difficulty: 68978.89245792 | Next Difficulty At Block: 116927 | Next Difficulty In: 1252 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 22 hours, 55 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 75443.12670168
1928 2011-03-29 23:11:53 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1929 2011-03-29 23:11:59 <phantomcircuit> this would take fully 4 days
1930 2011-03-29 23:12:06 <blablaa> renderer, do you deny there are different interest rates for different maturities?
1931 2011-03-29 23:12:09 <phantomcircuit> to download the full block chain
1932 2011-03-29 23:12:09 <renderer> you might be right, blablaa, but I have nothing to support your claim about bank credit in the 1500s and 1600s in Holland
1933 2011-03-29 23:12:20 <dirtyfilthy> phantomcircuit: is that validating it as well?
1934 2011-03-29 23:12:20 <renderer> no
1935 2011-03-29 23:12:54 <phantomcircuit> dirtyfilthy, no it's *only* putting the blocks/transactions into the db
1936 2011-03-29 23:13:49 <renderer> anyway... I was just leaving - and these 'dev' people probably want to talk dev issues
1937 2011-03-29 23:14:03 <blablaa> renderer, so, what is the problem with fractional reserve banking? they borrow short term funds and lend them for long term to credit-worthy borrowers..
1938 2011-03-29 23:14:17 <blablaa> renderer, this happens even when "money" has no carrying costs
1939 2011-03-29 23:14:46 Joozero has joined
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1941 2011-03-29 23:15:15 <renderer> On FRL, there are tonnes of papers and books explaining the problem in detail - mostly from the Austrian School of economics.
1942 2011-03-29 23:15:16 <blablaa> renderer, right..
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1944 2011-03-29 23:16:05 <blablaa> renderer, i think they deny the existence of the yield curve, which is silly
1945 2011-03-29 23:16:19 <renderer> not at all.
1946 2011-03-29 23:16:36 <renderer> they are really into the yield curve
1947 2011-03-29 23:16:41 <renderer> as I understand it
1948 2011-03-29 23:16:59 <EvanR> fractional reserve is funny, when i start a business, im going to sell my goods by taking their money, and claiming you can have the goods whenever you want bye
1949 2011-03-29 23:17:12 <blablaa> renderer, no, they're really into the idea that there is one interest rate, instead of one interest rate for each maturity and each commodity
1950 2011-03-29 23:17:16 <EvanR> call me when you go to make dinner and you can have the food
1951 2011-03-29 23:17:27 <EvanR> the government assures you ill have it
1952 2011-03-29 23:18:17 <renderer> doesn't one interest rate for each maturity allow for a yield curve?
1953 2011-03-29 23:18:42 <blablaa> renderer, yes, and usually short term rates are lower than long term rates
1954 2011-03-29 23:18:42 <EvanR> when you dont use the food you bought, ill just sell the food to someone else lol
1955 2011-03-29 23:18:45 <renderer> oh. sorry.  I just read what you sair properly
1956 2011-03-29 23:19:02 <sipa> phantomcircuit: bitcoin -addnode=<ip>, with <ip> an ip from the fallback nodes on the wiki
1957 2011-03-29 23:19:05 <EvanR> fractional reserve, i sell the food to someone else even if you do use it xD
1958 2011-03-29 23:19:08 <blablaa> EvanR, telephone companies sell "your" line to someone else when u don't use it
1959 2011-03-29 23:19:10 <sipa> that'll go faster i suppose
1960 2011-03-29 23:19:19 <blablaa> EvanR, insuers sell "your" insurance to someone else when u don't use it
1961 2011-03-29 23:19:30 <renderer> I will read what they say more carefully.  It's an interesting topic
1962 2011-03-29 23:19:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, huh?
1963 2011-03-29 23:19:50 <EvanR> blablaa: its not the same thing, because if it were, the government wouldnt need to subsidize it
1964 2011-03-29 23:19:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, my own client ;)
1965 2011-03-29 23:20:00 <sipa> oh, nevermind
1966 2011-03-29 23:20:03 <sipa> i wasn't following
1967 2011-03-29 23:20:38 <renderer> I find the Austrian economists deeply mistaken on natural resources, land and the commons.  So I don't pay too much attention
1968 2011-03-29 23:21:13 <renderer> OK.  Bye!
1969 2011-03-29 23:21:20 <EvanR> blablaa: without tax payer money, 10% minimum ratio would not be a viable business model
1970 2011-03-29 23:21:54 Joozero has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1973 2011-03-29 23:22:40 <blablaa> EvanR, hah! :)
1974 2011-03-29 23:22:57 <blablaa> EvanR, i think current ratios aren't < 1%
1975 2011-03-29 23:23:04 <blablaa> sorry, are < 1%
1976 2011-03-29 23:23:17 <EvanR> that would be absurd
1977 2011-03-29 23:23:27 <EvanR> thats a 100x multiplication of the money supply
1978 2011-03-29 23:23:54 jackSmith has joined
1979 2011-03-29 23:24:01 <EvanR> US is 10%
1980 2011-03-29 23:24:46 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1981 2011-03-29 23:24:52 <phantomcircuit> it's because of the auto flushign behavior
1982 2011-03-29 23:25:06 theorbtwo has joined
1983 2011-03-29 23:25:33 <Joozero> are you there sirius ?
1984 2011-03-29 23:25:34 <blablaa> EvanR, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_requirement#United_States
1985 2011-03-29 23:26:30 <blablaa> EvanR, for saving accounts it is 1%
1986 2011-03-29 23:27:39 <EvanR> wait WHAT?
1987 2011-03-29 23:27:51 renderer has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1988 2011-03-29 23:27:58 <EvanR> no reserve requirement for banks up to 10 million ?
1989 2011-03-29 23:28:04 <EvanR> so they can loan as much as they want?
1990 2011-03-29 23:28:53 <blablaa> EvanR, yes
1991 2011-03-29 23:29:19 <EvanR> hold on to your ass
1992 2011-03-29 23:29:21 <EvanR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_requirement
1993 2011-03-29 23:30:20 <EvanR> To be well-capitalized under federal bank regulatory agency definitions, a bank holding company must have a Tier 1 capital ratio of at least 6%, a combined Tier 1 and Tier 2 capital ratio of at least 10%, and a leverage ratio of at least 5%
1994 2011-03-29 23:30:25 <EvanR> lol
1995 2011-03-29 23:30:27 <EvanR> ?_?
1996 2011-03-29 23:30:37 <EvanR> no wonder the banks collapsed
1997 2011-03-29 23:30:55 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1998 2011-03-29 23:31:01 <phantomcircuit> HAZAH
1999 2011-03-29 23:31:11 <phantomcircuit> order of magnitude speed up by disabling autoflush
2000 2011-03-29 23:31:28 <EvanR> obviously the pitiful model of fractional reserve usually discussed here is grossly naive
2001 2011-03-29 23:31:33 <EvanR> unprofessional even
2002 2011-03-29 23:31:37 <EvanR> needs more complexity
2003 2011-03-29 23:31:44 <blablaa> EvanR, heh.. they don't collapse because depositors whims are wildly fluctuating..
2004 2011-03-29 23:32:03 <blablaa> EvanR, they collapse because the companies that have borrowed are unproductive..
2005 2011-03-29 23:33:00 <EvanR> i think they collapsed because no one could make sense of the banking regulations and or get reliable data about whether the bank is well capitalized, if such a think can be objectively determined
2006 2011-03-29 23:33:21 <EvanR> a shell game
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