1 2011-04-06 00:00:14 <luke-jr> ArtForzZz: supposedly I should get 42 MH/s on my CPU if I could use it <.<
   2 2011-04-06 00:00:15 <CFSworks> What we need is someone with a fab to make us some ASICs. :D
   3 2011-04-06 00:00:23 <ArtForzZz> I think I have a 32-bit micro somewhere around here that doesn't have rotate()
   4 2011-04-06 00:00:51 <krytzz> if i had a fab i would just make them for myself :p
   5 2011-04-06 00:01:22 <ArtForzZz> barrel shifters are already pretty big and complex without rotate support
   6 2011-04-06 00:01:27 * jgarzik needs to write an asm shader that computes 'x + y', given 32-bit integer inputs from userspace 'x' and 'y'.  If that's possible, the rest should be easy.
   7 2011-04-06 00:01:30 <CFSworks> krytzz, you can probably make more selling them if you sell them right. :)
   8 2011-04-06 00:01:36 <jgarzik> on FOSS drivers
   9 2011-04-06 00:02:00 <ArtForzZz> jgarzik: don't the foss drivers already use shaders for stuff like fast blits?
  10 2011-04-06 00:02:00 <krytzz> CFSworks: depends, if you suddenly own half of the coins :p
  11 2011-04-06 00:02:08 <krytzz> jgarzik: with radeon?
  12 2011-04-06 00:02:27 <krytzz> jgarzik: wouldbe cool, i have a 4670
  13 2011-04-06 00:02:44 <jgarzik> krytzz: yes
  14 2011-04-06 00:02:47 <jgarzik> ArtForzZz: hmmm
  15 2011-04-06 00:02:49 <krytzz> cool
  16 2011-04-06 00:02:50 * jgarzik looks
  17 2011-04-06 00:03:02 <jgarzik> it's fscking annoying how scattered the FOSS driver bits are
  18 2011-04-06 00:03:03 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Eric Swanson master * r0a4cb86 / rpc.cpp : Fixed issue 76 -- RPC error where addresses from addressbook's sending tab appear in listaccounts - http://bit.ly/ecg6r2
  19 2011-04-06 00:03:09 <jgarzik> some kernel, some mesa, some X.org, ...
  20 2011-04-06 00:03:15 <luke-jr> who is Eric Swanson? O.o
  21 2011-04-06 00:03:26 <CFSworks> jgarzik, I'd take a crack at it if I had the hardware on hand.
  22 2011-04-06 00:03:37 <ArtForzZz> CFSworks: the problem is the size of the bitcoin economy doesnt warrant the huge fixed costs
  23 2011-04-06 00:04:01 <jgarzik> indeed :/
  24 2011-04-06 00:04:44 <CFSworks> If someone could fix me up with SSH access to a box running the 'radeon' driver, I'd figure it out, though. :)
  25 2011-04-06 00:05:03 <ArtForzZz> only option how it could work is to find someone with the tools and have a bunch run on MOSIS
  26 2011-04-06 00:05:40 theorb has joined
  27 2011-04-06 00:06:06 <CFSworks> ArtForzZz, my hobby for the past week has been thinking up silly but fun ways to mine Bitcoins.
  28 2011-04-06 00:06:20 <CFSworks> I have a half-finished project that uses Wiremod (from Garry's Mod) to mine.
  29 2011-04-06 00:06:31 <CFSworks> I don't expect more than 1 khps but it's still hilarious. :D
  30 2011-04-06 00:06:38 <ArtForzZz> hahaha
  31 2011-04-06 00:06:42 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  32 2011-04-06 00:06:46 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
  33 2011-04-06 00:07:21 <jgarzik> ArtForzZz: any idea what ATI chip "evergreen" might be?
  34 2011-04-06 00:07:57 <CFSworks> Was looking at that earlier. I think that's actually what it's called.
  35 2011-04-06 00:09:12 <ArtForzZz> yes
  36 2011-04-06 00:09:25 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  37 2011-04-06 00:09:36 <ArtForzZz> evergreen is simply the name of the whole 5xxx series
  38 2011-04-06 00:09:57 <jgarzik> ok
  39 2011-04-06 00:10:12 <ArtForzZz> evergreen = cedar/redwood/juniper/cypress/hemlock
  40 2011-04-06 00:10:37 redMBA has joined
  41 2011-04-06 00:10:51 <ArtForzZz> while 6xxx series is codenamed "northern islands"
  42 2011-04-06 00:11:05 <ArtForzZz> and surprise - all chips are named after islands there ;(
  43 2011-04-06 00:11:14 <ArtForzZz> s/(/)/
  44 2011-04-06 00:11:38 <luke-jr> CFSworks: I could arrange for that I think… but it would be an X850
  45 2011-04-06 00:11:45 <luke-jr> not sure that's up to spec for shaders, even
  46 2011-04-06 00:11:51 <jgarzik> this looks promising: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/tree/src/mesa/drivers/dri/r600/r700_assembler.c
  47 2011-04-06 00:12:21 <jgarzik> you can build, instruction by instruction
  48 2011-04-06 00:12:44 <ArtForzZz> sure looks like radeon uses quite a few shaders on 5xxx: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-ati/tree/src/evergreen_shader.c
  49 2011-04-06 00:13:33 <CFSworks> What's the advantage to mining on FOSS? Simply that you don't have to run around with a tainted kernel?
  50 2011-04-06 00:14:00 <ArtForzZz> yeah
  51 2011-04-06 00:14:36 <krytzz> well you also have kms
  52 2011-04-06 00:14:38 <ArtForzZz> the EXA accel uses those shaders quite a lot
  53 2011-04-06 00:14:52 <krytzz> and soon you can run wayland
  54 2011-04-06 00:16:00 <luke-jr> CFSworks: how about AVX?
  55 2011-04-06 00:16:05 JackRabiit has joined
  56 2011-04-06 00:16:12 <JackRabiit> Hoy! Beremat!
  57 2011-04-06 00:16:19 <Beremat> heya!
  58 2011-04-06 00:16:39 <JackRabiit> I would Love to accept a loan from you, Any questions, concerns, comments?
  59 2011-04-06 00:16:46 <jgarzik> r700_{assembler,shader}.c from mesa, and those driver shader programs, should be useful examples.  now to figure out how to upload, without building the bitcoin algorithm into the driver itself :)
  60 2011-04-06 00:16:53 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  61 2011-04-06 00:16:59 <ArtForzZz> avx = useless
  62 2011-04-06 00:17:07 <Beremat> not really, the one with the other guy seemed to go well so I'm fairly confident this will, too
  63 2011-04-06 00:18:15 <ArtForzZz> avx uses the same "trick" as the early sse/mmx cpus
  64 2011-04-06 00:18:19 <JackRabiit> Great! im sending you a pm!
  65 2011-04-06 00:18:24 <Beremat> sweet
  66 2011-04-06 00:18:28 <JackRabiit> oh hey artforz! hows mining!
  67 2011-04-06 00:18:32 <JackRabiit> actually i know it's good
  68 2011-04-06 00:18:33 <CFSworks> By "trick" you mean "wide registers with SIMD"?
  69 2011-04-06 00:19:02 <ArtForzZz> no, I mean "use of the wider unit ties up 2 narrower units"
  70 2011-04-06 00:19:08 <Diablo-D3> by "trick" I think he means homosexual prostitution
  71 2011-04-06 00:19:21 <ArtForzZz> so you still have the exact same throughput
  72 2011-04-06 00:20:00 <ArtForzZz> only benefit is if you're instruction decode/issue limited
  73 2011-04-06 00:20:33 <phantomcircuit> ArtForzZz, which is like never
  74 2011-04-06 00:21:14 theymos has joined
  75 2011-04-06 00:21:14 <luke-jr> ArtForzZz: benchmarks show 3-fold improvement in practice
  76 2011-04-06 00:21:26 <ArtForzZz> well, it is a bit of a issue on the nehalem i7s and on K10s
  77 2011-04-06 00:21:55 <CFSworks> I got a fairly good boost when I wrote my SSE2-ASM miner a couple months back.
  78 2011-04-06 00:22:05 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * reb2d52136bad spesmilo/main.py: Bugfix: Fix bitcoin: URIs http://tinyurl.com/3rzfgkv
  79 2011-04-06 00:22:26 <luke-jr> CFSworks: want shell on my box to write an AVX one? :D
  80 2011-04-06 00:22:27 <ArtForzZz> iirc 3 128 bit sse ALUs, and if you dont have dependency stalls keeping em fed is pretty tricky
  81 2011-04-06 00:22:55 <Beremat> replied to your PM, JackRabiit
  82 2011-04-06 00:23:08 <JackRabiit> Goodie
  83 2011-04-06 00:23:14 <JackRabiit> i am now leaving IRC
  84 2011-04-06 00:23:17 <CFSworks> luke-jr, do you mean you have an AVX CPU, or are you using Intel's AVX emulation?
  85 2011-04-06 00:23:19 <Beremat> mkay, see ya around
  86 2011-04-06 00:23:24 <luke-jr> CFSworks: I have an AVX CPU
  87 2011-04-06 00:23:33 <CFSworks> Didn't really pay attention to how Sandy Bridge was coming around.
  88 2011-04-06 00:23:55 <JackRabiit> Thankyou!
  89 2011-04-06 00:24:00 JackRabiit has quit (Quit: Page closed)
  90 2011-04-06 00:24:05 <CFSworks> AVX is basically just SSE2 with %ymmX instead of %xmmX, right?
  91 2011-04-06 00:24:21 <Diablo-D3> avx is just double wide sse2.
  92 2011-04-06 00:24:24 * luke-jr has no idea on x86 asm
  93 2011-04-06 00:24:28 <CFSworks> Because if so I can just alter my SSE2 miner to use the new registers...
  94 2011-04-06 00:24:33 <luke-jr> :o
  95 2011-04-06 00:24:39 <Diablo-D3> CFSworks: new instructions you mean
  96 2011-04-06 00:25:03 <CFSworks> Diablo-D3, aren't the SSE2 registers expanded to operate on AVX registers?
  97 2011-04-06 00:25:13 <ArtForzZz> yep, double wide sse2 with a VEX prefix and a handful of new instructions
  98 2011-04-06 00:25:15 <CFSworks> Okay that time I meant "instructions"
  99 2011-04-06 00:25:37 <luke-jr> CFSworks: does this likely require 64-bit, or is 32-bit sufficient?
 100 2011-04-06 00:26:16 <CFSworks> Either should work... The only thing is, my miner is a Python extension, so work fetching and queueing is up to the user.
 101 2011-04-06 00:26:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: why would you ever use 32 bit code on a 64 bit processor?
 102 2011-04-06 00:26:44 <ArtForzZz> oh, and after the next gen they want to widen em to 512 bits
 103 2011-04-06 00:27:12 <ArtForzZz> aka "err... why do we have a on-chip APU again ?"
 104 2011-04-06 00:27:20 <CFSworks> Sweet. Moore's law hasn't failed us yet. :D
 105 2011-04-06 00:27:33 <CFSworks> Can't wait until we're doing 65,536-bit SIMD. :)
 106 2011-04-06 00:27:46 <ArtForzZz> we're pretty close
 107 2011-04-06 00:27:51 <luke-jr> CFSworks: do you have IPv6 access?
 108 2011-04-06 00:28:06 <Diablo-D3> heh
 109 2011-04-06 00:28:19 <CFSworks> luke-jr, one would think that, at a university, I would... Alas, no (unless I hop on a HE.net tunnel)
 110 2011-04-06 00:28:43 <luke-jr> CFSworks: do you have a tunnel setup?
 111 2011-04-06 00:28:49 <luke-jr> otherwise I can forward a port easily
 112 2011-04-06 00:28:57 <ArtForzZz> > 2048 bit SIMD is pretty normal for a modern GPU
 113 2011-04-06 00:29:17 <CFSworks> luke-jr, how about we take this to github instead? Can you write the Python side of things?
 114 2011-04-06 00:29:26 <luke-jr> CFSworks: I don't use GitHub.
 115 2011-04-06 00:29:45 <CFSworks> Any other preferred method of source control perhaps...?
 116 2011-04-06 00:29:50 <luke-jr> Gitorious works ;)
 117 2011-04-06 00:30:04 <CFSworks> Sure, give me a minute to get set up there then. :)
 118 2011-04-06 00:30:11 <luke-jr> I'm not sure what the Python side would have to do though?
 119 2011-04-06 00:30:16 <ArtForzZz> with cl miners a decent high-end GPU effectively mimics a >20kbit SIMD
 120 2011-04-06 00:30:21 <luke-jr> just the JSON-RPC and feed the work to it?
 121 2011-04-06 00:30:36 <CFSworks> Threading, work requesting, queueing, and then call fastcoin.mine() to drop into low-level ASM.
 122 2011-04-06 00:30:57 <luke-jr> k
 123 2011-04-06 00:31:19 <CFSworks> I have to update my ASM side stuff though... Back when I wrote it, I was a little stubborn toward big-endian work, so it had to byteswap internally...
 124 2011-04-06 00:31:29 <ArtForzZz> well, actually 4 or 5 of em fed by VLIW on ATI
 125 2011-04-06 00:31:42 <luke-jr> in case the Python is annoying to you also, I'd be happy with a C interface ;)
 126 2011-04-06 00:31:57 <CFSworks> If we could support MMP/BDP that would be nice, too...
 127 2011-04-06 00:32:37 <jgarzik> would a sha256 algo be an ATI pixel shader, vertex shader, or is that a nonsensical question altogether?
 128 2011-04-06 00:32:37 <jgarzik> :)
 129 2011-04-06 00:32:38 <CFSworks> luke-jr, I don't mind making it pure-C, but most of my network skills are in Python, so...
 130 2011-04-06 00:33:01 <CFSworks> jgarzik, try to operate on internal buffers if possible.
 131 2011-04-06 00:33:02 <jgarzik> are pixel shaders and vertex shaders two different names for the same underlying machine ISA?
 132 2011-04-06 00:33:20 <ArtForzZz> jgarzik: iirc the available input/output transforms are different
 133 2011-04-06 00:33:25 <CFSworks> It would likely be a pixel shader... If you could get write access to texture memory or something like that, it would work.
 134 2011-04-06 00:33:40 <ArtForzZz> the radeon ISA docs explain it pretty clearly
 135 2011-04-06 00:33:42 <luke-jr> CFSworks: it's more or less the same in C and Python, but I'd plan on making ti work with cpuminer ;)
 136 2011-04-06 00:34:25 <CFSworks> Hmm... Would jgarzik be interested in adding it to mainline cpuminer when we're done?
 137 2011-04-06 00:34:29 <ArtForzZz> pixel shaders usually run on every (x,y) of a 2d texture and in/output rgba quads
 138 2011-04-06 00:34:36 <jgarzik> CFSworks: yes, definitely
 139 2011-04-06 00:35:32 <CFSworks> jgarzik: Also remind me to add BDP support to Multiminer, and I'd have to decide what I'll want to do about MMP support... It has some features (namely META) that are quite useful to me in my mining cluster...
 140 2011-04-06 00:36:08 <jgarzik> CFSworks: have you looked at the protocol in depth?  the JSON stuff means it has pretty much infinite flexibility
 141 2011-04-06 00:36:09 <gavinandresen> Question for y'all:  I'm testing my "report immature blocks in listtransactions" patch, and found what is either a feature or a bug:  orphan blocks get reported as 0/immature.  What do you think, feature or bug?
 142 2011-04-06 00:36:41 <ArtForzZz> gavinandresen: yes ;)
 143 2011-04-06 00:36:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: a bit different from xlisttransactions, which just looks at wallet TX's
 144 2011-04-06 00:36:47 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: … blocks in listtransactions?
 145 2011-04-06 00:36:59 <CFSworks> jgarzik, alas, no... If I drop all support for MMP and switch to BDP, would you be interested in giving some pointers here and there, or perhaps assisting development?
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 150 2011-04-06 00:45:16 <CFSworks> luke-jr, go ahead and fork cpuminer into gitorious, I'll go get a bite to eat (should only take 10 minutes) and commit my ASM stuff.
 151 2011-04-06 00:46:10 tower has joined
 152 2011-04-06 00:46:28 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  ok, reports coin generation transactions in....
 153 2011-04-06 00:46:28 <jgarzik> CFSworks: pointers sure
 154 2011-04-06 00:46:28 * jgarzik -> baby bedtime
 155 2011-04-06 00:46:28 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so their 'confirmations' is 0 until they reach 100?
 156 2011-04-06 00:46:28 osmosis has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 157 2011-04-06 00:46:29 <luke-jr> or you mean, a failed chain fork just goes back to 0 forever?
 158 2011-04-06 00:46:29 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  no, if they are not in orphaned blocks they start a 1 confirmation and go up to 100 (at which point they're 'generate' not 'immature')
 159 2011-04-06 00:46:29 <gavinandresen> yes, orphaned are reported in the listtransactions output as 0/immature forever.
 160 2011-04-06 00:46:29 <luke-jr> I don't see why not just list them as ordinary 'generate'
 161 2011-04-06 00:46:30 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: do they first show up as 1 confirm, or as 0?
 162 2011-04-06 00:46:30 <gavinandresen> They'll always start a 1 confirm, because they're in a block that is in the best block chain.
 163 2011-04-06 00:46:30 <gavinandresen> But if the block gets orphaned (lose the block race), they'll go to 0
 164 2011-04-06 00:46:30 <luke-jr> sounds fine… it's pretty unambiguous
 165 2011-04-06 00:46:30 <gavinandresen> Question is: will it cause more problems for RPC clients if it simply disappears, or if it goes from 1 confirmation to 0.  I think 1 to 0 is the right answer.
 166 2011-04-06 00:46:31 <theymos> Why are you changing the cilent-side maturation time to 100? I'm sure Satoshi had some reason for adding the extra 20 blocks.
 167 2011-04-06 00:46:31 <gavinandresen> And why both 'immature' and 'generate' -- because hard-coding the "N confirmations means mature" into every bitcoin-using application is ugly
 168 2011-04-06 00:46:31 <phantomcircuit> client side maturation?
 169 2011-04-06 00:46:31 curiositysquared has joined
 170 2011-04-06 00:46:31 <gavinandresen> theymos:  there are two maturation times in bitcoin.... and I mis-typed, they are reported 'immature' until they have 120 confirmations
 171 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <phantomcircuit> oh
 172 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <phantomcircuit> meh
 173 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <gavinandresen> (100 is the minimum for txn to be considered valid in block checks)
 174 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <curiositysquared> is there a service/map of people willing to exchange bitcoin/cash IRL at different places around the world?
 175 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <theymos> OK. I thought I saw you talking about changing the client-side to 100 in the client, too.
 176 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <gavinandresen> (all the send* routines won't let you send if less than 120 confirmations)
 177 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <phantomcircuit> you mena just for the minting transaction
 178 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <phantomcircuit> or for any bitcoin
 179 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: yes, talking only about coinbase txns
 180 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <phantomcircuit> because 120 blocks is a long time
 181 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <phantomcircuit> ok
 182 2011-04-06 00:46:32 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: how about an extra 'mature' propety?
 183 2011-04-06 00:46:33 <luke-jr> curiositysquared: tradebitcoin.com
 184 2011-04-06 00:46:33 <curiositysquared> thnx
 185 2011-04-06 00:46:33 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: and yes, Spesmilo would be rather upset if a txn disappeare
 186 2011-04-06 00:46:33 tower has quit (Changing host)
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 189 2011-04-06 00:47:24 <luke-jr> CFSworks: git@gitorious.org:bitcoin/cpuminer.git
 190 2011-04-06 00:47:39 <theymos> I don't think orphan blocks should be included, since this data might change after the block database is deleted.
 191 2011-04-06 00:47:40 <phantomcircuit> oh neat
 192 2011-04-06 00:47:45 <phantomcircuit> dualing charts on cspan
 193 2011-04-06 00:47:55 <phantomcircuit> MY CHART IS BETTER THAN YOUR CHART
 194 2011-04-06 00:48:02 <luke-jr> theymos: would it?
 195 2011-04-06 00:48:35 <luke-jr> theymos: either way, better for it to change in user-is-trying-to-cleanup scenario than no-warning
 196 2011-04-06 00:48:36 <gavinandresen> theymos:  the coinbase transactions would still be in your wallet
 197 2011-04-06 00:49:26 <theymos> OK. 0/failed would probably better to make clear that it won't gain confirmations.
 198 2011-04-06 00:49:28 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
 199 2011-04-06 00:49:59 <gavinandresen> theymos:  ooh, I like that...   immature/generate/failed
 200 2011-04-06 00:50:13 <gavinandresen> fail?  FAIL?  failed?
 201 2011-04-06 00:50:19 sabalaba has joined
 202 2011-04-06 00:50:25 <gavinandresen> Maybe    HAHA!  FAIL!
 203 2011-04-06 00:51:18 <Blitzboom> put some leetspeak in it
 204 2011-04-06 00:51:23 <theymos> Bitcoin definitely needs more easter eggs.
 205 2011-04-06 00:51:30 <gavinandresen> or "category" : "So sorry, you lost the block race.  Try again."
 206 2011-04-06 00:52:25 <phantomcircuit> lol
 207 2011-04-06 00:52:30 <phantomcircuit> chris hollen
 208 2011-04-06 00:52:35 <phantomcircuit> this guy is a joke
 209 2011-04-06 00:52:59 <phantomcircuit> he's almost giddy
 210 2011-04-06 00:53:08 jackSmith has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 211 2011-04-06 00:53:44 DrQ has joined
 212 2011-04-06 00:54:20 <Blitzboom> that guy is good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Sxm6L06Z4
 213 2011-04-06 00:54:30 <Blitzboom> bitcoin needs more people like him
 214 2011-04-06 00:54:47 <Diablo-D3> heh
 215 2011-04-06 00:57:35 <theymos> I'm seeing Gavin talk on IRC while I'm listening to him talk on EconTalk. Strange...
 216 2011-04-06 00:58:12 <gavinandresen> I listened to myself today... I gotta learn to stop saying "ummm..." so much
 217 2011-04-06 00:58:34 <ArtForzZz> ummm... why?
 218 2011-04-06 00:58:43 <Blitzboom> i was disappointed a bit of econtalk
 219 2011-04-06 00:58:48 <gavinandresen> cause, you know, um, yeah.
 220 2011-04-06 00:58:54 <Blitzboom> thought that would be more academic
 221 2011-04-06 00:59:22 <ArtForzZz> err... yeah... thats... ahhh... like... cool.
 222 2011-04-06 00:59:35 bitcoiner has joined
 223 2011-04-06 00:59:55 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: how about a new 'status' field, 'immature', 'processing', 'confirmed', and 'failed'?
 224 2011-04-06 01:00:01 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: applicable to all txn
 225 2011-04-06 01:00:26 <theymos> Your interviews remind me of Patri Friedman, who also does that. I'm not annoyed by it.
 226 2011-04-06 01:00:59 <gavinandresen> ... but immature and processing and failed are only applicable to coinbase txns.  Well, I suppose if we ever expire transactions 'failed' might be applicable.
 227 2011-04-06 01:01:32 <phantomcircuit> the best public speakers just
 228 2011-04-06 01:01:34 <phantomcircuit> stop talking
 229 2011-04-06 01:01:39 <phantomcircuit> instead of saying umm
 230 2011-04-06 01:01:43 <phantomcircuit> they just dont say anything
 231 2011-04-06 01:01:59 <aeMaeth> also, instead of saying, "I don't know" say, "etc."
 232 2011-04-06 01:01:59 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: are you a speaker, if you don't speak?
 233 2011-04-06 01:02:02 <theymos> Bitcoin should detect conflicting double-spends that win over our versions. "Failed" would be appropriate there.
 234 2011-04-06 01:02:41 <gavinandresen> theymos:  "category" : "failed" would work for that.  I don't think we need an extra status field.
 235 2011-04-06 01:02:42 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, oh snap all philosophical on my ass
 236 2011-04-06 01:03:11 <phantomcircuit> so who can calculate the probability of a large block merge
 237 2011-04-06 01:03:21 <jgarzik> I think block maturation should be one day (~144 blocks)
 238 2011-04-06 01:04:30 <gavinandresen> So seriously:  "category" : "fail"    or    "category" : "orphan"  ... or something else
 239 2011-04-06 01:04:38 <jgarzik> orphan
 240 2011-04-06 01:05:09 <CFSworks> Presumably they are orphans already, and switch to "unadopted"
 241 2011-04-06 01:05:38 <CFSworks> "orphan" or "abandoned" would probably be my top picks though.
 242 2011-04-06 01:05:56 <jgarzik> "annie"
 243 2011-04-06 01:06:11 <CFSworks> Although "rejected" perhaps best describes the concept of the network no longer accepting as canon...
 244 2011-04-06 01:06:27 <phantomcircuit> so why was 10 minutes chosen?
 245 2011-04-06 01:06:36 <phantomcircuit> seems like quite a delay
 246 2011-04-06 01:06:47 <CFSworks> It's a reasonable broadcast delay for getting blocks across the entire network.
 247 2011-04-06 01:06:54 <ArtForzZz> yep
 248 2011-04-06 01:06:56 <ArtForzZz> because it's a decent tradeoff
 249 2011-04-06 01:06:57 <theymos> Isn't "rejected" the term already used in the GUI?
 250 2011-04-06 01:07:27 <ArtForzZz> we saw plenty chain forks when we had ~2min/block after 1st /.ing
 251 2011-04-06 01:07:43 <theymos> Oh; "rejected" is just the error message.
 252 2011-04-06 01:07:58 <ArtForzZz> actually a higher block interval could even make sense
 253 2011-04-06 01:12:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: according to BlueMatt, windows' bitcoin.exe goes into the background for Windows-specific reasons.  That implies -daemon never really worked on Windows, and tcatm's patch (at least) should go in -- after tcatm revises to use the proper #ifdef for Windows
 254 2011-04-06 01:13:19 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: ok
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 258 2011-04-06 01:18:07 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@us3 ~]$ ps ax | grep bitcoin
 259 2011-04-06 01:18:07 <jgarzik> 15981 ?        Zl     9:52 [bitcoind] <defunct>
 260 2011-04-06 01:18:13 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: that fixes ^^
 261 2011-04-06 01:18:20 <jgarzik> that's actually a running, active process
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 272 2011-04-06 01:19:32 * jgarzik -> za & Jericho
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 277 2011-04-06 01:24:08 <andrew12> o_o
 278 2011-04-06 01:24:19 <andrew12> that was weird
 279 2011-04-06 01:24:24 <CFSworks> Hmm?
 280 2011-04-06 01:25:37 <theymos> If we want to encourage alternative implementations of Bitcoin, there will need to be an extensive test suite for Script. I was thinking about implementing transaction creation in my PHP client, but cloning Script is impossible without a test suite.
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 284 2011-04-06 01:30:43 <theymos> In fact, if BitcoinJ or some other client attempts to clone Script, they might risk splitting the network if any accidental incompatabilities are introduced.
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 318 2011-04-06 01:40:51 <gavinandresen> theymos:  a test suite for Script is a great idea-- a bunch of valid and invalid transactions that exercise all the nooks and crannies of script.cpp should be reasonably easy to come up with.
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 323 2011-04-06 01:49:36 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: "category" currently tells us generate/send/receive…
 324 2011-04-06 01:50:27 <gavinandresen> ... and after my patch it will be generate/send/receive/immature/orphan
 325 2011-04-06 01:51:19 <luke-jr> that will suck
 326 2011-04-06 01:51:21 r3dMBA has joined
 327 2011-04-06 01:51:25 <gavinandresen> why?
 328 2011-04-06 01:51:35 <luke-jr> because it now has multiple meanings
 329 2011-04-06 01:51:43 <luke-jr> and doesn't give the similar status for other txn
 330 2011-04-06 01:52:01 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r5e3911e4591a gentoo/dev-python/anynumber/ (Manifest anynumber-9999.ebuild): dev-python/anynumber: Initial import. http://tinyurl.com/3fozbqy
 331 2011-04-06 01:52:03 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r0293b8569e22 spesmilo/ (Makefile settings.py): use anynumber Python module to parse and format number strings http://tinyurl.com/3scx94a
 332 2011-04-06 01:52:05 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rd717eb0a1fe5 gentoo/net-p2p/spesmilo/ (Manifest spesmilo-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/spesmilo: RDEPEND on dev-python/anynumber http://tinyurl.com/3muh3z5
 333 2011-04-06 01:52:09 <luke-jr> why should UIs be hard-coding "6 blocks for Confirmed on normal txn" either?
 334 2011-04-06 01:52:27 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 335 2011-04-06 01:53:17 <gavinandresen> good question.  I never really like the '6 is the magic number' policy decision for the wxbitcoin gui
 336 2011-04-06 01:53:45 <luke-jr> that's why I suggested a new field to apply to all txn …
 337 2011-04-06 01:54:38 <luke-jr> 'status' = 'immature' would apply to generate < 100 and normal < 1; 'processing' for g<120,n<6; 'confirmed' beyond that
 338 2011-04-06 01:54:57 <luke-jr> and 'rejected' or such if the generate fails, or normal txn expires
 339 2011-04-06 01:55:54 <theymos> Would anyone use that? Waiting for 6 confirmations is rarely necessary.
 340 2011-04-06 01:56:17 <luke-jr> theymos: it's just moving existing policy to the Wallet
 341 2011-04-06 01:56:28 <luke-jr> theymos: peopel can ignore it just like they can ignore it in the GUI now
 342 2011-04-06 01:56:38 <gavinandresen> ... but the RPC interface isn't just for Wallets
 343 2011-04-06 01:56:49 tower has joined
 344 2011-04-06 01:56:57 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: no?
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 346 2011-04-06 01:57:20 <luke-jr> what else? O.o
 347 2011-04-06 01:58:31 <gavinandresen> If I have my way, stuff like blockexplorer or bitcoinwatch or whatever aught to be able to use the RPC interface to get the data they display.  THey're not wallets.
 348 2011-04-06 01:59:23 NOTtheMessiah has joined
 349 2011-04-06 02:01:06 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: 'listtransactions' strikes me as especially wallet-specific :P
 350 2011-04-06 02:01:08 <theymos> I suppose it wouldn't do any harm, though I doubt anyone will use it. It might be more useful to display some sort of "probability of reversal" measurement for each confirmation up to 6, though.
 351 2011-04-06 02:01:13 <luke-jr> even if you add non-wallet-specific RPC calls
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 356 2011-04-06 02:05:46 <theymos> Bitcoin has enough info to display "average number of hashes for an attacker to reverse" for each transaction, and even "percentage of current network hash/s to reverse". That'd really help people understand confirmations.
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 377 2011-04-06 02:18:32 <[Tycho]> npouillard, yes, i answered this in my forum thread today.
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 383 2011-04-06 02:36:48 <Keefe> <@theymos> Bitcoin has enough info to display "average number of hashes for an attacker to reverse" for each transaction
 384 2011-04-06 02:37:02 <Keefe> would be neat if it showed the value of those hashes
 385 2011-04-06 02:37:48 <Keefe> for example, if it said that about 100 BTC worth of hashing would be required to have a 50% chance of reversing
 386 2011-04-06 02:41:54 dissipate has joined
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 388 2011-04-06 02:43:51 <gasteve> I recall that the client embeds knowledge of certain blocks when new versions are released...I wonder if that mechanism could be formalized in some way...essentially, because everyone trusts the client distro, they are giving it a supervote regarding such hard coded blocks...I wonder if every N number of blocks, the network could somehow agree on some past block being authoritative and making it impossible for it to be reversed (even if a longer
 389 2011-04-06 02:43:51 <gasteve> eclipsing that block were to be encountered)...if done say once per week on avg, people could be highly confident in any transactions older than 1 week are firmly embedded in the block chain
 390 2011-04-06 02:47:08 <gasteve> I guess in practice that would be equivalent to all clients refusing to accept a long block chain if that chain alters an blocks older than say a week in the past
 391 2011-04-06 02:47:21 <gasteve> *longer block chain
 392 2011-04-06 02:47:45 skeledrew has joined
 393 2011-04-06 02:49:07 <davex__> ;;bc,stats
 394 2011-04-06 02:49:10 <gribble> Current Blocks: 116958 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1985 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 18 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 70333.28027511
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 402 2011-04-06 03:11:40 <echelon> what's up with this transaction http://blockexplorer.com/tx/d710b71184fee6f1af04eded13fdef31c6e1c0849207ed010b886b7f473bbc51#o0
 403 2011-04-06 03:11:52 <echelon> been about an hour
 404 2011-04-06 03:13:21 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 405 2011-04-06 03:16:44 <gasteve> what do you mean by what's up with it?
 406 2011-04-06 03:16:49 <Keefe> echelon: what are you saying about it?
 407 2011-04-06 03:17:05 <echelon> why isn't it received yet
 408 2011-04-06 03:17:09 <Keefe> it is
 409 2011-04-06 03:17:11 <gasteve> it's in a block
 410 2011-04-06 03:17:21 <Keefe> if you don't see it, it's cause you don't have the latest blocks
 411 2011-04-06 03:17:32 <Keefe> it has 9 confirms
 412 2011-04-06 03:17:41 <Keefe> no, 10
 413 2011-04-06 03:18:18 <echelon> wait a minute
 414 2011-04-06 03:18:20 <echelon> uh
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 431 2011-04-06 03:57:48 <robblesz> I get failed connections while using JSON-RPC against my local instance of bitcoind seemingly at random, and very frequently. Almost 10% of my requests don't go through. Any one know what's going on?
 432 2011-04-06 03:58:51 <robblesz> getinfo() and every other method I've tried have the same problem
 433 2011-04-06 03:59:17 <gjs278> it took me so long to install this accelero holy crap
 434 2011-04-06 03:59:24 <gjs278> but now my room isnt a vacuum cleaner
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 440 2011-04-06 04:08:42 <Keefe> gjs278: 5970?
 441 2011-04-06 04:08:52 <gjs278> 5870
 442 2011-04-06 04:09:06 <gjs278> not a reference card... oh god the pain I've gone through to get this installed
 443 2011-04-06 04:09:48 echelon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 444 2011-04-06 04:10:04 <retinal> non-reference; MSI?
 445 2011-04-06 04:10:11 <retinal> or Gigabyte?
 446 2011-04-06 04:10:34 <retinal> those are the only ones I can think of the top of my head, and the former overclocks like a beast :>
 447 2011-04-06 04:10:51 <retinal> the latter on the other hand, gave me comical performance and died within three weeks
 448 2011-04-06 04:10:54 <retinal> ┐( ̄ー ̄)┌
 449 2011-04-06 04:13:24 <robblesz> Sheesh, JSON-RPC is almost totally unusable here. Makes me wonder how the hell others manage their wallets programatically
 450 2011-04-06 04:14:04 <CFSworks> robblesz, try going to the HTTP URL in a browser and see if it gives you an error.
 451 2011-04-06 04:14:04 <robblesz> Maybe fopen() is broken. I'll try curl
 452 2011-04-06 04:15:02 <robblesz> CFSworks: the errors are very hard to catch. a millisecond after I get an error, it might work fine
 453 2011-04-06 04:16:13 <robblesz> I will try that, though
 454 2011-04-06 04:16:16 <CFSworks> Ah, it's sporadic. Sorry, didn't see that... How is the connection failing? Rejected, or timing out...?
 455 2011-04-06 04:16:55 <robblesz> fopen(http://...@127.0.0.1:8339/) [function.fopen]: failed to open stream: HTTP request failed!
 456 2011-04-06 04:17:15 <robblesz> it returns very quickly, so it doesn't feel like a timeout
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 460 2011-04-06 04:24:26 <robblesz> There are no problems when I send a GET request to http://user:pass@127.0.0.1:8339/ in my browser, but then again that's not a valid JSON-RPC request and exercises a different code path
 461 2011-04-06 04:24:42 <CFSworks> Looking up "HTTP request failed!" is kind of unhelpful, unfortunately... What if you try using bitcoind's builtin client?
 462 2011-04-06 04:25:07 <robblesz> Do you mean with the CLI?
 463 2011-04-06 04:25:12 <CFSworks> Yeah.
 464 2011-04-06 04:25:21 <robblesz> Will do
 465 2011-04-06 04:26:58 <da2ce7> ;;seen glassresistor
 466 2011-04-06 04:26:58 <gribble> glassresistor was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 3 days, 10 hours, 23 minutes, and 1 second ago: <glassresistor> da2ce7: tcatm: afternoon
 467 2011-04-06 04:28:05 <gjs278> retinal it's the asus eah5870
 468 2011-04-06 04:28:16 <gjs278> they decided to make a design "better" than reference
 469 2011-04-06 04:28:42 <robblesz> CFSworks: I hammered on the CLI bitcoind interface and that seems to be working just fine
 470 2011-04-06 04:28:44 <retinal> gjs278: interesting choice
 471 2011-04-06 04:28:53 <retinal> the single fan still throws me off
 472 2011-04-06 04:29:04 <gjs278> it actually didn't get too hot
 473 2011-04-06 04:29:06 <gjs278> just insanely loud
 474 2011-04-06 04:29:30 <CFSworks> robblesz, I guess that means it's an issue with fopen or PHP... Sadly I'm not a PHP expert.
 475 2011-04-06 04:29:48 <robblesz> Could be, yeah. Thanks
 476 2011-04-06 04:30:33 <luke-jr> wireshark it and pastebin the request+reply
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 478 2011-04-06 04:31:02 <robblesz> luke-jr: good idea, I will try that
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 480 2011-04-06 04:34:10 <robblesz> Ah curses, windows doesn't have a loopback interface
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 482 2011-04-06 04:35:04 <CFSworks> robblesz, you know my pain when trying to debug networking applications. :(
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 484 2011-04-06 04:37:02 <gasteve> well, I *finally* got bitcoind compiling with autotools
 485 2011-04-06 04:37:37 <gasteve> (with refactored sources)
 486 2011-04-06 04:38:01 <gasteve> off to bed...need to add support for bitcoin to the autotools based build
 487 2011-04-06 04:38:05 <gasteve> (tomorrow)
 488 2011-04-06 04:40:08 <robblesz> Okay, I got a dump. Let's see if I can find the relevant packets...
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 494 2011-04-06 04:59:01 <robblesz> Huh, this might be a PHP problem. Requests that fail with fopen() look normal in Wireshark
 495 2011-04-06 05:02:43 <robblesz> Probably doesn't help that I'm developing on Windows
 496 2011-04-06 05:02:57 <aeMaeth> that never helps anyone
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 498 2011-04-06 05:08:48 <luke-jr> robblesz: no server should run on Windows anyway
 499 2011-04-06 05:09:10 Zenith77 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 500 2011-04-06 05:09:13 <CFSworks> luke-jr: I wrote my first server in Windows.
 501 2011-04-06 05:09:21 <CFSworks> VB6 HTTP server. Could only handle one open connection at a time.
 502 2011-04-06 05:09:34 <luke-jr> CFSworks: point made?
 503 2011-04-06 05:09:40 <CFSworks> Yes, it was very prone to DoS because of it, but I never used it in production.
 504 2011-04-06 05:10:23 <jgarzik> gasteve: using my autotools branch?
 505 2011-04-06 05:10:35 <jgarzik> gasteve: because I already did all that work...
 506 2011-04-06 05:10:59 <CFSworks> Wasn't exactly trying to make a point, but "Windows Server" makes about as much sense as "DOS for render farms"
 507 2011-04-06 05:11:28 <jgarzik> DOS is still used on factory floors.  The hard drives in your computer have most likely touched DOS at some point in their early lives.
 508 2011-04-06 05:11:41 <jgarzik> no matter how recent your hard drive manufacture date
 509 2011-04-06 05:12:22 <CFSworks> jgarzik, are there DOS remnants on there when it comes out of the box or do they erase it before shipping it?
 510 2011-04-06 05:12:46 <jgarzik> DOS runs on the controllers that are used in the factory
 511 2011-04-06 05:12:57 <jgarzik> calibration, validation, ...
 512 2011-04-06 05:13:03 <CFSworks> Actually, has anyone looked at a brand-new HDD with a hex editor? What do they put on it when they ship?
 513 2011-04-06 05:13:22 <CFSworks> I'm guessing either 00 00 00 00 ... or FF FF FF FF ... but it would be neat to know for sure. :)
 514 2011-04-06 05:13:40 <robblesz> My 2TB was full of 0s
 515 2011-04-06 05:14:21 <CFSworks> Save for the MBR or do they zero that as well?
 516 2011-04-06 05:14:39 <robblesz> I don't remember, to be honest
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 518 2011-04-06 05:14:53 <robblesz> I just checked to see if it had been used for storage before
 519 2011-04-06 05:16:06 <CFSworks> I probably wouldn't remember, either... Would just be neat to know what's expected on an HDD after shredding it to sell, I guess.
 520 2011-04-06 05:16:38 <CFSworks> I'd probably end up zeroing it and then putting a blank MBR on there with fdisk anyway.
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 552 2011-04-06 06:13:43 <nathan7> grbgout: Not enough CPU/GPU power, except on a windows machine in Amsterdam I semi-own.
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 554 2011-04-06 06:13:55 <nathan7> grbgout: I need to find a way to run the miner as a service
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 586 2011-04-06 06:52:45 * kiba announces a new project
 587 2011-04-06 06:54:37 * retinal tickles kiba
 588 2011-04-06 06:54:41 <retinal> spill the beans, you!
 589 2011-04-06 06:55:23 <kiba> I am crowdsourcing for a RTS game
 590 2011-04-06 06:58:57 m00p has joined
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 599 2011-04-06 07:25:04 <AAA_awright> kiba: You know you can always ask me
 600 2011-04-06 07:26:33 <kiba> AAA_awright: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
 601 2011-04-06 07:28:01 <AAA_awright> kiba: How much to replace that ad
 602 2011-04-06 07:28:09 <kiba> what?
 603 2011-04-06 07:28:16 <AAA_awright> In your footer
 604 2011-04-06 07:28:22 <kiba> 25 BTC
 605 2011-04-06 07:28:52 <AAA_awright> Isn't there a going rate, per month?
 606 2011-04-06 07:29:44 <AAA_awright> kiba: Have you read A New Kind of Science?
 607 2011-04-06 07:29:57 <CFSworks> Wolfram's?
 608 2011-04-06 07:30:07 <AAA_awright> The squares that react to rules reminds me of that
 609 2011-04-06 07:30:13 <kiba> 25 BTC per month
 610 2011-04-06 07:30:16 <kiba> that's 1 BTC a day
 611 2011-04-06 07:32:35 alystair has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 612 2011-04-06 07:34:32 <AAA_awright> kiba: You weren't in #defocus on April Fool'
 613 2011-04-06 07:34:38 <AAA_awright> kiba: You weren't in #defocus on April Fool's day were you?
 614 2011-04-06 07:34:44 remanifest has joined
 615 2011-04-06 07:35:08 <AAA_awright> What if we plugged Bitcoin into the Wolf game so you could bet on outcomes
 616 2011-04-06 07:35:34 <AAA_awright> idk if you would be able to find enough players that way you would have to figure out the logistics of hybrid non-betting + betting players
 617 2011-04-06 07:37:29 <AAA_awright> kiba: I'll take the "New Kind of Science" question as "No"?
 618 2011-04-06 07:38:03 <kiba> um.
 619 2011-04-06 07:38:09 <kiba> no
 620 2011-04-06 07:38:45 tabsa has joined
 621 2011-04-06 07:39:43 <AAA_awright> kiba: And the wolf game? Did Rabbit Doubt officially die?
 622 2011-04-06 07:42:26 <kiba> I guess so
 623 2011-04-06 07:42:54 <kiba> we got lot of ideas, little execution
 624 2011-04-06 07:43:22 <AAA_awright> The core mechanic wasn't fully worked out
 625 2011-04-06 07:43:38 <AAA_awright> Plus Node.js has changed quite a bit since then
 626 2011-04-06 07:48:53 devrandom has joined
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 630 2011-04-06 08:01:07 <molecular> kiba, your cellular automaton game will run on linux, I assume?
 631 2011-04-06 08:04:19 <kiba> umm
 632 2011-04-06 08:04:28 <kiba> it run on chromium and firefox
 633 2011-04-06 08:04:33 eao_ has joined
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 635 2011-04-06 08:07:19 <kiba> molecular: so it runs on linux, if that what you mean
 636 2011-04-06 08:09:02 <molecular> ah, I see, nice
 637 2011-04-06 08:09:11 <kiba> will you be pledging?
 638 2011-04-06 08:09:23 toffoo has quit ()
 639 2011-04-06 08:09:24 <molecular> yes, just still deciding on the amount
 640 2011-04-06 08:10:58 <molecular> "Note: I won't be responsible for holding your money in escrow. If you are a trusted member of the community, this is your opportunity to earn some reputation." <- what do you mean by that? When do we pay you?
 641 2011-04-06 08:11:34 <kiba> that, I have not figured it out yet
 642 2011-04-06 08:11:41 <kiba> I need to design a roadmap
 643 2011-04-06 08:11:50 <kiba> err
 644 2011-04-06 08:11:52 <kiba> write a roadmap
 645 2011-04-06 08:12:10 <kiba> but presumbly, with enough progress, I will be able to release a beta release
 646 2011-04-06 08:12:23 <molecular> so for now it's just people pledging and at some point after you have started (pledges >1200) you might say to us: guys, I need money, can you send what you pledged?
 647 2011-04-06 08:12:28 <kiba> and you guys get to decide
 648 2011-04-06 08:12:38 <kiba> molecular: no...
 649 2011-04-06 08:12:41 <kiba> the way
 650 2011-04-06 08:12:42 <kiba> it works
 651 2011-04-06 08:12:48 <kiba> is that I have to show you guys my goodie
 652 2011-04-06 08:13:00 <kiba> I can't just say
 653 2011-04-06 08:13:04 <kiba> "guys, I need more money"
 654 2011-04-06 08:14:10 <molecular> so, if we were to be a..holes, we could say: "dude, that's not good enough, the colors are all wrong" and not give you anything?
 655 2011-04-06 08:14:12 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@ishibashi.dashjr.org|guys, I need more money
 656 2011-04-06 08:14:37 alystair has joined
 657 2011-04-06 08:14:39 <kiba> molecular: it's all trust
 658 2011-04-06 08:14:42 <molecular> ok, I see
 659 2011-04-06 08:14:46 <kiba> but you guys are not going to be aholes
 660 2011-04-06 08:14:55 <molecular> of course not
 661 2011-04-06 08:14:58 <kiba> I mean...when you guys ever been aholes?
 662 2011-04-06 08:15:15 <molecular> noone here has ever been an ass to me
 663 2011-04-06 08:15:23 <kiba> exactly
 664 2011-04-06 08:15:24 <molecular> except verbally maybe ;)
 665 2011-04-06 08:15:40 <kiba> the bitcoin community wouldn't function if we were all aholes
 666 2011-04-06 08:15:48 <molecular> ok, I'm pledging 25
 667 2011-04-06 08:16:14 <kiba> access to the game forum, credit, and energy credits!
 668 2011-04-06 08:16:19 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 669 2011-04-06 08:16:20 <kiba> but
 670 2011-04-06 08:16:22 <kiba> I need to sleep
 671 2011-04-06 08:16:23 <kiba> see ya
 672 2011-04-06 08:16:27 <molecular> l8er
 673 2011-04-06 08:18:45 <BurtyB> mornin
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 678 2011-04-06 08:30:07 <kiba>  argh
 679 2011-04-06 08:30:08 <kiba> sleep
 680 2011-04-06 08:30:10 <kiba> a problem
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 684 2011-04-06 08:35:13 <topi`> what's the fastest CPU client for core2 cpus on linux?
 685 2011-04-06 08:35:50 <topi`> I guess SSE3 has to be used so that there is a reasonable bitrotate available
 686 2011-04-06 08:36:32 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@ishibashi.dashjr.org|miner*
 687 2011-04-06 08:39:22 mahadri has joined
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 689 2011-04-06 08:40:53 <[Tycho]> topi`, ufasoft's CPU miner. Not sure if it's available for linux.
 690 2011-04-06 08:41:30 retinal has joined
 691 2011-04-06 08:41:53 <jgarzik> topi`: ufasoft on windows, sse2_64 algo in cpuminer on 64-bit Linux
 692 2011-04-06 08:42:15 <topi`> ok
 693 2011-04-06 08:42:51 <[Tycho]> jgarzik's minerd has the advantage of Long Polling if you are going to mine in pool.
 694 2011-04-06 08:44:02 <topi`> ok, I am mining for a pool, but why do I want Long Polling?
 695 2011-04-06 08:44:50 <CFSworks> Long polling informs your miner the moment the previous work becomes stale, so it doesn't work on a share that will be rejected.
 696 2011-04-06 08:45:06 <topi`> that would be useful
 697 2011-04-06 08:45:17 <topi`> I'm running m0mchil's python client, does it know how to do it?
 698 2011-04-06 08:45:24 <CFSworks> poclbm does, yes. :)
 699 2011-04-06 08:45:33 <topi`> but I need to choose some command line option?
 700 2011-04-06 08:45:45 <CFSworks> No, it automatically detects that the pool supports long-polling and uses it.
 701 2011-04-06 08:45:46 <topi`> AFAIK I did not know anything about long polling
 702 2011-04-06 08:45:49 <topi`> ah, ok
 703 2011-04-06 08:45:52 <CFSworks> What pool is it, by the way?
 704 2011-04-06 08:45:58 <topi`> slush's
 705 2011-04-06 08:46:21 <CFSworks> Last I checked, Slush doesn't quite have long-polling support yet, but he's working on it... Anybody know if he finished it yet?
 706 2011-04-06 08:47:22 <topi`> problem is, my GPU is slow, so it mines at 1.5 Mhash/s
 707 2011-04-06 08:48:28 <CFSworks> What GPU is it?
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 709 2011-04-06 08:48:43 <topi`> a Nvidia 9400M (this is an old Macbook)
 710 2011-04-06 08:48:44 <[Tycho]> No, AFAIK LP support is not enabled yet in slush's pool.
 711 2011-04-06 08:48:55 <finnomenon> ;bc.rate
 712 2011-04-06 08:49:01 <finnomenon> ;bc.help
 713 2011-04-06 08:49:17 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,stats
 714 2011-04-06 08:49:21 <gribble> Current Blocks: 116997 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1946 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 31 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76603.02423885
 715 2011-04-06 08:49:33 <jgarzik> topi`: that's slower than one of my CPU cores ;)
 716 2011-04-06 08:49:43 <jgarzik> topi`: I get almost 3 Mhash/sec per core
 717 2011-04-06 08:49:45 <CFSworks> I do have push-work from Slush's pool, in a way, using my MMP gateway.
 718 2011-04-06 08:49:50 <topi`> jgarzik: no shit, this is a 1.5 year old low end laptop :)
 719 2011-04-06 08:49:57 <jgarzik> hehe
 720 2011-04-06 08:50:03 <topi`> jgarzik: what kind of CPU gives 3 M?
 721 2011-04-06 08:50:15 <topi`> I only get around 1.5M from my Core 2 Duo 2.26
 722 2011-04-06 08:50:17 <BurtyB> i7 980
 723 2011-04-06 08:50:20 <jgarzik> topi`: very recent intel
 724 2011-04-06 08:50:26 <topi`> I see
 725 2011-04-06 08:50:33 <BurtyB> I get about 3.7/core
 726 2011-04-06 08:50:40 <CFSworks> My laptop's i5 does 4M.
 727 2011-04-06 08:51:18 <topi`> jgarzik: but I'll rather use the GPU miner since the GPU uses 5 watts at full blast, while the Core 2 Duo consumes over 20 watts when both cores are working :)
 728 2011-04-06 08:51:20 <finnomenon> ;;bc,gen 320000
 729 2011-04-06 08:51:22 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 320000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 3.90863310587 BTC per day and 0.162859712745 BTC per hour.
 730 2011-04-06 08:55:23 <topi`> got something on the poclbm output
 731 2011-04-06 08:55:28 <topi`> 06/04/2011 10:52:31, 438fe27c, accepted
 732 2011-04-06 08:55:45 <topi`> does this mean that I finally get some meager percentages from slush?
 733 2011-04-06 08:57:03 <CFSworks> topi`: Yep, go ahead and watch your "estimated reward" on your account page.
 734 2011-04-06 09:02:10 bxc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 735 2011-04-06 09:03:23 modules has joined
 736 2011-04-06 09:04:40 <topi`> well it says "score: 0" :(
 737 2011-04-06 09:04:49 <topi`> last share seen at 07:23
 738 2011-04-06 09:04:59 <topi`> but that was one round before, I think
 739 2011-04-06 09:18:57 <ersi> topi`: I get 4kHps per core with my i5-2500k
 740 2011-04-06 09:20:34 <JFK911> nice
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 745 2011-04-06 09:59:34 jaromil has joined
 746 2011-04-06 10:01:05 <jaromil> re all, i'm with amir at a bitcoin presentation , we'd like to show a transaction to someone online. query me your hash in the next 5 mins if you want some free bitcoins
 747 2011-04-06 10:03:10 Blitzboom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 750 2011-04-06 10:11:30 <topi`> jaromil: i'm always online ;) have fun in your presentation
 751 2011-04-06 10:15:14 <jaromil> topi`: gvd is full of suits here
 752 2011-04-06 10:15:30 <jaromil> these ppl rly don't know how to dress
 753 2011-04-06 10:15:30 <topi`> suits! I was afraid of that :)
 754 2011-04-06 10:16:29 <topi`> there are different corporate cultures, as well. when I was representing Nokia with a couple of colleagues of mine (all engineers/managers), our side of the table was in woollen pullovers, t-shirts, whatnot, and the british company on the other side in suits :)
 755 2011-04-06 10:16:49 <jaromil> no wonder why their systems are bonkers. bad taste is definitely a sign of failure
 756 2011-04-06 10:16:56 <topi`> yes!!
 757 2011-04-06 10:17:25 <topi`> do you still need to make demo transactions?
 758 2011-04-06 10:17:33 <topi`> my empty wallet at your disposal ;)
 759 2011-04-06 10:18:13 <jaromil> too late :)
 760 2011-04-06 10:18:17 <topi`> damn.
 761 2011-04-06 10:19:23 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 765 2011-04-06 10:31:36 dbitcoin has joined
 766 2011-04-06 10:32:02 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,help
 767 2011-04-06 10:32:02 <gribble> Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,labs, Alias bc,lbs, Alias bc,markets, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,nexttarget, Alias bc,poolstats, Alias bc,prob, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,timetonext, Alias bc,totalbc, and Alias bc,wiki
 768 2011-04-06 10:32:28 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,stats
 769 2011-04-06 10:32:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117005 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1938 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 22 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77149.30411352
 770 2011-04-06 10:33:51 <sirius-m> jaromil: how is the atmosphere at epca? :)
 771 2011-04-06 10:35:40 <jaromil> sirius-m: *full* of suits
 772 2011-04-06 10:36:05 <jaromil> i've collected brochures, missed all talks to help prepare (network wasn't working etc.)
 773 2011-04-06 10:36:26 <jaromil> looks pretty international
 774 2011-04-06 10:37:35 <topi`> jaromil: did genjix manage to get some sleep he dearly needed? :)
 775 2011-04-06 10:37:47 <sirius-m> I guess suits are the standard in corporate events
 776 2011-04-06 10:37:53 <jaromil> just 3h
 777 2011-04-06 10:38:01 <topi`> crazy
 778 2011-04-06 10:38:05 <jaromil> sirius-m: i'd expect some more fashion happening
 779 2011-04-06 10:38:21 <topi`> jaro: they just don't know how :)
 780 2011-04-06 10:39:06 <sirius-m> thanks for being there, it's a new important audience for bitcoin
 781 2011-04-06 10:39:33 <sirius-m> people who otherwise might not hear about the project
 782 2011-04-06 10:39:52 <jaromil> true but knowing the types i think they are thinking how to fork it in their own advantage
 783 2011-04-06 10:40:06 <jaromil> prolly wasted effort
 784 2011-04-06 10:41:16 <topi`> at least they start talking about it:)
 785 2011-04-06 10:41:24 <topi`> good luck finding ways to exploit the system
 786 2011-04-06 10:41:28 <krytzz> hopefully they cant fork the network
 787 2011-04-06 10:41:34 <krytzz> only could start a seperate one :(
 788 2011-04-06 10:41:36 <sirius-m> nah, it's good that you're spreading the word :)
 789 2011-04-06 10:42:59 <topi`> if there *will* be some threat coming from corporate sector, then we'll finally find out how resilient the whole architecture is :)
 790 2011-04-06 10:43:31 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 793 2011-04-06 10:56:54 <topi`> hmm, cpu-miner.c fails to compile under OSX, because no byteswap.h ... is this a known deficiency?
 794 2011-04-06 10:57:18 <krytzz> yes, just install linux
 795 2011-04-06 10:57:19 <krytzz> :p
 796 2011-04-06 10:57:37 <topi`> i'm pretty sure there's no byteswap.h on FreeBSD, neither.
 797 2011-04-06 10:58:36 <topi`> ok, it just defines the bswap_16/32 macros
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 803 2011-04-06 11:15:07 <topi`> anyone here wanna help me fix one 32/64bit relocation problem? this prevents me from compiling jgarzik's cpu miner on OSX
 804 2011-04-06 11:15:42 <nefario> any python devs in the house? looking for an easy way to get m2crypto working on my python installation
 805 2011-04-06 11:15:42 <topi`> Topin-MacBook:x86_64 topi$ /opt/local/bin/yasm -f macho64 sha256_xmm_amd64.asm
 806 2011-04-06 11:15:46 <topi`> sha256_xmm_amd64.asm:106: error: macho: sorry, cannot apply 32 bit absolute relocations in 64 bit mode, consider "[_symbol wrt rip]" for mem access, "qword" and "dq _foo" for pointers.
 807 2011-04-06 11:16:28 <topi`> now, I have no experience of x86_64 asm whatsoever, so don't know if a 32 bit absolute relocation ought to be valid in 64 bit mode or not.
 808 2011-04-06 11:17:46 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 809 2011-04-06 11:17:48 <jed> nefario: pip install m2crypto?
 810 2011-04-06 11:18:45 <nefario> whats pip, sorry I have no idea how python packages get installed for python installations
 811 2011-04-06 11:18:49 <nefario> im on debian lenny
 812 2011-04-06 11:19:56 <jed> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=m2crypto&searchon=names&suite=stable&section=all
 813 2011-04-06 11:19:57 <topi`> python-m2crypto - a crypto and SSL toolkit for Python
 814 2011-04-06 11:20:19 <jed> upgrade to squeeze and you get it in apt, otherwise install pip and pip install m2crypto
 815 2011-04-06 11:20:20 <nefario> thanks
 816 2011-04-06 11:20:42 <topi`> squeeze is recommended, unless you're running a mission-critical server:)
 817 2011-04-06 11:21:08 <jed> oh - it's in lenny, too. they changed how that stupid thing searches
 818 2011-04-06 11:21:18 <topi`> it's also possible to install squeeze packages on top of lenny, BUT then you'd better know what you're doing
 819 2011-04-06 11:21:30 <nefario> thats what I've been doing todate
 820 2011-04-06 11:21:38 <jed> I lied: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/python-m2crypto
 821 2011-04-06 11:25:28 <nefario> seems to have worked
 822 2011-04-06 11:25:45 <nefario> python doesn't have the equivalent to ruby gems then?
 823 2011-04-06 11:26:22 ForceDestroyer has joined
 824 2011-04-06 11:26:23 <jed> did you google pip?
 825 2011-04-06 11:26:41 <nefario> no haha, just used apt-get
 826 2011-04-06 11:26:49 <jed> we've had gems since before ruby existed
 827 2011-04-06 11:26:58 <jed> we just can't stick to a name
 828 2011-04-06 11:27:10 <nefario> haha
 829 2011-04-06 11:27:14 <nefario> thats it there then
 830 2011-04-06 11:27:42 eao_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 831 2011-04-06 11:30:09 eao has joined
 832 2011-04-06 11:32:14 DrQ has joined
 833 2011-04-06 11:35:04 <topi`> jgarzik: what version of jansson do you except for the miner?
 834 2011-04-06 11:35:13 <topi`> I got error: too few arguments to function 'json_load_file'
 835 2011-04-06 11:35:14 KBme has quit (Excess Flood)
 836 2011-04-06 11:36:31 antivigilante_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 837 2011-04-06 11:36:52 <topi`> and if I look at the jansson includes, it is *json_load_file(const char *path, size_t flags, json_error_t *error);
 838 2011-04-06 11:38:03 KBme has joined
 839 2011-04-06 11:43:02 <ForceDestroyer> How am I supposed to handle all those addresses the BitCoin client generates? I don't need that many :(
 840 2011-04-06 11:43:40 <sipa> it handles them for you :)
 841 2011-04-06 11:43:42 <ForceDestroyer> I can't even re-order them, let alone classify or delete...
 842 2011-04-06 11:43:56 <sipa> you can label them :)
 843 2011-04-06 11:43:59 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 844 2011-04-06 11:44:01 <sipa> but it definitely needa work
 845 2011-04-06 11:44:43 <ForceDestroyer> Yes, but getting one out of there that has a label will be too tedious in no time if it keeps generating addresses at this pace
 846 2011-04-06 11:45:33 <ForceDestroyer> When does it generate a new one? I can't see any pattern to it, but they just pop up every now and then
 847 2011-04-06 11:46:02 <sipa> every time you receive a payment to an so-far-unused one, or when it generates change
 848 2011-04-06 11:49:28 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
 849 2011-04-06 11:49:28 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7478,"low":0.58,"vol":9324,"buy":0.7,"sell":0.702,"last":0.7018}}
 850 2011-04-06 11:49:32 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 851 2011-04-06 11:49:33 BERRI has joined
 852 2011-04-06 11:49:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117013 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1930 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 16 hours, 45 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76019.99681399
 853 2011-04-06 11:49:40 <JFK911> lol 82k
 854 2011-04-06 11:49:54 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 400000
 855 2011-04-06 11:49:57 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4.88579138234 BTC per day and 0.203574640931 BTC per hour.
 856 2011-04-06 11:51:30 sabalaba has joined
 857 2011-04-06 11:54:22 <ForceDestroyer> ;;bc,gen 240000
 858 2011-04-06 11:54:23 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 240000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2.9314748294 BTC per day and 0.122144784558 BTC per hour.
 859 2011-04-06 11:56:23 <JFK911> They should re-state that in terms of heroin you can buy from that site
 860 2011-04-06 11:56:38 <JFK911> unless you can buy other stuff with bitcoins now
 861 2011-04-06 11:59:09 <ForceDestroyer> If I backup wallet, then send BTC to an address I had before the backup, will those too be restored?
 862 2011-04-06 11:59:30 <JFK911> restored?
 863 2011-04-06 11:59:38 <ForceDestroyer> *be able to be restored in case of HDD failure
 864 2011-04-06 11:59:50 <JFK911> you mean a scheme to clone bitcoins?
 865 2011-04-06 12:00:00 <ForceDestroyer> I mean HDD failure
 866 2011-04-06 12:00:58 <ForceDestroyer> A similar question is: are bitcoins known as being "together" that the same node has control on but received via different addresses?
 867 2011-04-06 12:01:05 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: all transactions that you did, will of course remain in effect
 868 2011-04-06 12:01:11 <xelister> because entire network keeps them
 869 2011-04-06 12:01:52 <xelister> ;;bc,gen 100000
 870 2011-04-06 12:01:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1.22144784558 BTC per day and 0.0508936602327 BTC per hour.
 871 2011-04-06 12:02:20 <ForceDestroyer> But does my node have to keep anything it has done during an incoming transfer, such that coins sent to me after the backup but before the crash would be destroyed even on "old" target addresses?
 872 2011-04-06 12:02:48 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: afaik it does not have to
 873 2011-04-06 12:02:59 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: you need to have the wallet with receiving address
 874 2011-04-06 12:03:00 <xelister> that is all
 875 2011-04-06 12:03:05 <xelister> that you must keep safe
 876 2011-04-06 12:03:08 <xelister> afair
 877 2011-04-06 12:03:46 <ForceDestroyer> So, I only need to backup after recieving on an address that was created since the last backup -- that I can handle. Even though the constand address-generation annoys me. :p
 878 2011-04-06 12:04:07 <xelister> its good for privacy,  but you can just save and always use same address
 879 2011-04-06 12:04:13 <xelister> which is really had for any privacy
 880 2011-04-06 12:04:16 <xelister> *bad
 881 2011-04-06 12:04:37 <ForceDestroyer> Okay, but if the transfers come from the same source anyways... dunno
 882 2011-04-06 12:04:41 <eps2> http://www.startupproject.org/2011/04/gumroad/
 883 2011-04-06 12:04:49 <ForceDestroyer> then again, you're right with that, too
 884 2011-04-06 12:04:53 <eps2> maybe something like that could work with bitcoin
 885 2011-04-06 12:05:19 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 886 2011-04-06 12:06:58 BERRI has quit (Excess Flood)
 887 2011-04-06 12:07:43 <ForceDestroyer> How are coins combined from the different addresses I used to receive when I send them on? Also, isn't multi-address thing pointless the moment I do a large transfer, 'cause then everyone knows the money has been on the same person?
 888 2011-04-06 12:07:54 BERRY_ has joined
 889 2011-04-06 12:08:24 * ForceDestroyer doesn't see how it's possible to make money transfer opaque in a system that knows the entire transfer structure
 890 2011-04-06 12:08:39 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: actually, unless you are using mixing server it will be possible to track you eventually
 891 2011-04-06 12:09:21 <ForceDestroyer> That's what I figured. Mixing servers to the rescue, lol
 892 2011-04-06 12:09:38 <ersi> Mix it up, trix it up.
 893 2011-04-06 12:09:50 <eps2> tor?
 894 2011-04-06 12:10:02 adlsaks has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 895 2011-04-06 12:10:06 <ersi> Doesn't make it anonymous.
 896 2011-04-06 12:10:14 <sipa> the best mixing servers are actually mtgox and mybitcoin, i think :)
 897 2011-04-06 12:10:16 <ForceDestroyer> Okay, but I admittedly see no problem with mixing servers, so I suppose I can forget about that problem on the long run. Even better, those can serve to purge the blocks :3
 898 2011-04-06 12:10:29 <ForceDestroyer> Yes, mtgox is obviously winning there
 899 2011-04-06 12:11:01 <ForceDestroyer> btcoin transfers have no fee on it, and everyone and their grandmas use it, so it's the obvious choice :p
 900 2011-04-06 12:11:17 * ForceDestroyer is satisfied and wanders off to eat something
 901 2011-04-06 12:15:11 skeledrew has joined
 902 2011-04-06 12:16:27 tower has joined
 903 2011-04-06 12:17:18 <joepie91> if you are looking for a certain mode change in a mIRC log, here's a handy regex:
 904 2011-04-06 12:17:19 <joepie91> sets mode: [^\S][a-zA-Z]*s
 905 2011-04-06 12:17:33 <joepie91> also catches multimode stuff such as +aohv nick1 nick2 nick3 nick4
 906 2011-04-06 12:19:05 BERRY_ is now known as BERRI
 907 2011-04-06 12:19:19 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 908 2011-04-06 12:21:25 maurice__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 909 2011-04-06 12:26:48 <UukGoblin> who's the bitcoincharts guy?
 910 2011-04-06 12:27:10 <UukGoblin> there's bitomat.pl, a polish exchange in alpha development ;-)
 911 2011-04-06 12:31:33 <tcatm> cool
 912 2011-04-06 12:32:29 <tcatm> Who runs bitomat.pl?
 913 2011-04-06 12:33:20 <UukGoblin> bitomat@szabat.com it seems
 914 2011-04-06 12:33:40 <UukGoblin> named 'acdbddh' on bitcoin.pl/forum
 915 2011-04-06 12:33:54 <UukGoblin> I can tell him to contact you regarding a feed if you want ;-]
 916 2011-04-06 12:34:51 <tcatm> I'll email him.
 917 2011-04-06 12:36:54 <UukGoblin> cool :-)
 918 2011-04-06 12:37:45 <kiba> so
 919 2011-04-06 12:37:56 <kiba> only 30 BTC were pledged for my game project
 920 2011-04-06 12:38:07 <UukGoblin> kiba, what game?
 921 2011-04-06 12:38:10 <kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
 922 2011-04-06 12:38:17 <kiba> a RTS game
 923 2011-04-06 12:38:19 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 924 2011-04-06 12:39:14 <kiba> I am 97.5% short of my fundraising goal
 925 2011-04-06 12:39:43 phantomcircuit has joined
 926 2011-04-06 12:40:00 <UukGoblin> kiba, is that gonna be p2p or client-server? :-]
 927 2011-04-06 12:40:24 <kiba> client, server
 928 2011-04-06 12:42:26 jroot has joined
 929 2011-04-06 12:43:25 <UukGoblin> will it be opensource? how will it use bitcoins?
 930 2011-04-06 12:45:04 <UukGoblin> tcatm, oh, looks like there's also bitmarket.eu, not sure if you know about it already
 931 2011-04-06 12:45:56 <tcatm> Yea, I already asked him to add an API.
 932 2011-04-06 12:46:23 <kiba> yes, UukGoblin
 933 2011-04-06 12:46:24 BurtyB has joined
 934 2011-04-06 12:46:27 <kiba> which I forgot to mention
 935 2011-04-06 12:46:33 <T_X> kiba: hehe, what did you expect? you just started that thread today, and for ~130 viewers 30btc is already quite good IMO
 936 2011-04-06 12:46:38 <T_X> :)
 937 2011-04-06 12:47:14 taco_the_paco has joined
 938 2011-04-06 12:47:14 taco_the_paco has quit (Changing host)
 939 2011-04-06 12:47:14 taco_the_paco has joined
 940 2011-04-06 12:47:17 <kiba> but all the people are more concerned with other goods and services :/
 941 2011-04-06 12:48:39 <T_X> kiba: by the way, it's really awesome that you are offering these different freelancing stuff. your short story, the drawing, now the game coding
 942 2011-04-06 12:48:39 <T_X> but I think it's quite hard to keep track of all this, if it's just posted at random times somewhere in the forums
 943 2011-04-06 12:54:11 <eps2> well i posted that gumroad link earlieer
 944 2011-04-06 12:54:23 <eps2> we really need something like that or gumroad for bitcoin
 945 2011-04-06 12:54:33 <kiba> so
 946 2011-04-06 12:54:35 <kiba> anybody
 947 2011-04-06 12:54:37 <kiba> want to
 948 2011-04-06 12:54:45 <kiba> pledge some bitcoin :O
 949 2011-04-06 12:54:46 <eps2> sorry something like kickstarter
 950 2011-04-06 12:55:15 <eps2> the bitcoin bounty sites i have seen so far have been pretty uninspiring
 951 2011-04-06 12:55:33 <kiba> what site?
 952 2011-04-06 12:55:49 <UukGoblin> kiba, nope, sorry. Paying bitcoins for dev of a game I'm unlikely to play much, that will require bitcoins to play later... not my thing, sorry
 953 2011-04-06 12:56:16 <eps2> there was one site, i can't find a link atm
 954 2011-04-06 12:56:22 <UukGoblin> I'd donate if you were writing a p2p mmorpg using bitcoins as an in-world currency
 955 2011-04-06 12:56:26 <kiba> UukGoblin: you will get energy credit
 956 2011-04-06 12:57:18 <UukGoblin> the concept is interesting, I have to say, but I just don't have enough time to play games these days
 957 2011-04-06 12:57:54 <kiba> but it will be open source :O
 958 2011-04-06 12:58:02 <kiba> and under the public domain :)
 959 2011-04-06 12:59:36 <xelister> eps2: url
 960 2011-04-06 12:59:39 <xelister> eps2: URL
 961 2011-04-06 12:59:39 <phantomcircuit> roses are red
 962 2011-04-06 12:59:41 <xelister> eps2: URL. OR. GTFO
 963 2011-04-06 12:59:42 <phantomcircuit> violets are blue
 964 2011-04-06 12:59:50 <xelister> >_>  j/k
 965 2011-04-06 12:59:54 <eps2> i am pretty sure i got the url from here
 966 2011-04-06 13:00:00 <eps2> but the site was rubbish
 967 2011-04-06 13:00:02 <phantomcircuit> bitcoins are abstract beyond the thinking of 60% of the population >.>
 968 2011-04-06 13:00:16 <nefario> When bitcoind starts up for the first time, it begins to download the block chain, during this time, prior to having downloaded the entire block chain will it be able to generate new addresses?
 969 2011-04-06 13:00:37 <sipa> should be
 970 2011-04-06 13:00:48 <sipa> generating addresses does not require any communication
 971 2011-04-06 13:01:01 <wump> yes, addresses are purely random
 972 2011-04-06 13:01:16 <nefario> right, thanks
 973 2011-04-06 13:02:32 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 974 2011-04-06 13:02:42 phantomcircuit has joined
 975 2011-04-06 13:10:18 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 976 2011-04-06 13:10:36 molecular has joined
 977 2011-04-06 13:11:47 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
 978 2011-04-06 13:11:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117022 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1921 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 9 hours, 14 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 77188.12695445
 979 2011-04-06 13:13:11 skeledrew1 has joined
 980 2011-04-06 13:13:41 <phantomcircuit> LobsterMan, i like your name
 981 2011-04-06 13:13:48 <phantomcircuit> it's almost like you're a lobster
 982 2011-04-06 13:13:51 <phantomcircuit> but you're not
 983 2011-04-06 13:13:51 <nefario> should bitcoind be using 17-40% cpu while downloading the blockchain without generating?
 984 2011-04-06 13:13:53 <phantomcircuit> you're a man
 985 2011-04-06 13:13:58 <phantomcircuit> nefario, yes
 986 2011-04-06 13:14:06 <phantomcircuit> nefario, it's doing lots of maths
 987 2011-04-06 13:14:28 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 988 2011-04-06 13:14:30 <nefario> OK, so it downloads and verifies the chain at the same time then
 989 2011-04-06 13:14:59 <eps2> it downloadifies
 990 2011-04-06 13:15:31 <kiba> hey nefario
 991 2011-04-06 13:15:34 <phantomcircuit> eps2, <3
 992 2011-04-06 13:15:51 <nefario> well I'm just trying to get an app done, and I've built a local version of bitcoind to test against but it's being totally unresponsive
 993 2011-04-06 13:15:55 <nefario> hey kiba
 994 2011-04-06 13:16:31 <nefario> I did get a response from it once after just starting up using curl
 995 2011-04-06 13:16:36 <phantomcircuit> nefario, it'll take a long as time to download
 996 2011-04-06 13:16:38 <nefario> which seemed to work fine
 997 2011-04-06 13:17:09 <nefario> so I can expect json-rpc not to work as long as it's downloading the blockchain and verifying it
 998 2011-04-06 13:17:11 <jed> give it a couple hours, nefario
 999 2011-04-06 13:17:13 <jed> yes.
1000 2011-04-06 13:17:16 <nefario> ok
1001 2011-04-06 13:17:18 <nefario> thats fine
1002 2011-04-06 13:17:23 grbgout has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1003 2011-04-06 13:17:28 <nefario> was wondering if I had cocked something uo
1004 2011-04-06 13:17:29 <nefario> up
1005 2011-04-06 13:18:54 <LobsterMan> (Y)^_^(Y)
1006 2011-04-06 13:21:49 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1007 2011-04-06 13:23:29 skeledrew has joined
1008 2011-04-06 13:31:40 minus has joined
1009 2011-04-06 13:33:18 <topi`> morning lobster, thanks for your article about GPU mining, it helped my little brother
1010 2011-04-06 13:35:09 slush has joined
1011 2011-04-06 13:35:32 <slush> are transactions under 0.01 relayed by network and accepted to memory pools?
1012 2011-04-06 13:35:33 Xunie has quit (Quit: Can God microwave a taco so hot that not even *HE* can eat it without burns?)
1013 2011-04-06 13:36:18 <luke-jr> slush: no
1014 2011-04-06 13:36:30 <luke-jr> slush: that's why you need to connect direct to free relay net
1015 2011-04-06 13:36:48 <slush> ok, so spamming with under-cent transactions aren't possible
1016 2011-04-06 13:37:18 <slush> I though so, but want to be sure :) thanks
1017 2011-04-06 13:37:55 gavinandresen has joined
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1020 2011-04-06 13:38:49 genjix has joined
1021 2011-04-06 13:38:57 <genjix> joepie91: hey
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1030 2011-04-06 13:59:32 <jaromil> topi`: are you seriously planning to become a miner?
1031 2011-04-06 14:01:07 alias420 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1042 2011-04-06 14:20:48 <tcatm> new service: telnet bitcoincharts.com 27006
1043 2011-04-06 14:22:08 <CIA-96> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r88eee3893de5 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/script.py: got some scripting done http://tinyurl.com/6l7chs7
1044 2011-04-06 14:23:25 * kiba dispises the empty silence
1045 2011-04-06 14:23:37 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, what is this
1046 2011-04-06 14:23:47 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: connect and send some BTC
1047 2011-04-06 14:26:00 skreuzer has joined
1048 2011-04-06 14:26:40 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1049 2011-04-06 14:27:28 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,stats
1050 2011-04-06 14:27:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117028 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1915 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 76076.55229829
1051 2011-04-06 14:29:54 sabalaba has joined
1052 2011-04-06 14:30:25 <minus> will the difficulty keep on growing endlessly?
1053 2011-04-06 14:30:59 glassresistor has joined
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1055 2011-04-06 14:30:59 glassresistor has joined
1056 2011-04-06 14:31:41 <luke-jr> minus: so long as people get more mining going
1057 2011-04-06 14:32:06 <dbitcoin> minus: if btc market value only rises, then yes.
1058 2011-04-06 14:33:04 <minus> mhh, haven't quite gotten what happens when you mine, might take a read on that lateron
1059 2011-04-06 14:35:00 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1060 2011-04-06 14:36:15 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, neat
1061 2011-04-06 14:37:04 <nanotube> ;;bc,wiki how bitcoin works
1062 2011-04-06 14:37:05 <gribble> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works | Mar 2, 2011 ... The block chain which is constantly being generated by the Bitcoin network works as a common agreement about the order in which bitcoin ...
1063 2011-04-06 14:37:07 <nanotube> minus: ^
1064 2011-04-06 14:37:50 <minus> yeah, have that open already, it's lies well between the other 159 tabs
1065 2011-04-06 14:39:25 kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1066 2011-04-06 14:40:43 jav has joined
1067 2011-04-06 14:42:04 <CIA-96> bitcoin: phantomcircuit * r1eae49ce8469 bitcoin-alt/bitcoin/script.py: some more parsing... http://tinyurl.com/3ljqzhq
1068 2011-04-06 14:42:25 BlueMatt has joined
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1071 2011-04-06 14:44:35 <nanotube> minus: haha
1072 2011-04-06 14:52:53 <jav> is it possible - using the JSON-RPC interface - to spent coins that I only just received (having 0 confirmations)?
1073 2011-04-06 14:54:10 <joepie91> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1302099893963.jpg
1074 2011-04-06 14:54:11 <sipa> yes
1075 2011-04-06 14:54:13 <sipa> oh
1076 2011-04-06 14:54:23 <sipa> only if you sent them to yourself
1077 2011-04-06 14:54:31 <sipa> otherwise at least one is needed
1078 2011-04-06 14:54:36 <BlueMatt> joepie91: so true
1079 2011-04-06 14:54:42 <joepie91> yup
1080 2011-04-06 14:54:44 <joepie91> lol
1081 2011-04-06 14:54:57 <joepie91> seriously, 4chan may have the weirdest stuff ever
1082 2011-04-06 14:55:00 <joepie91> but things like this...
1083 2011-04-06 14:55:05 <BlueMatt> been doing some arp/wifi stuff today, fun times
1084 2011-04-06 14:55:06 <joepie91> so much truth in them it's almost painful
1085 2011-04-06 14:55:46 <jav> sipa: I see.. and there is no way around that? can I modify the source or will those transactions be considered invalid by other clients?
1086 2011-04-06 14:56:30 <sipa> jav: you could
1087 2011-04-06 15:00:01 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1088 2011-04-06 15:00:12 phantomcircuit has joined
1089 2011-04-06 15:03:34 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
1090 2011-04-06 15:03:35 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7478,"low":0.638,"vol":8936,"buy":0.7013,"sell":0.7231,"last":0.7236}}
1091 2011-04-06 15:04:42 remanifest has joined
1092 2011-04-06 15:05:01 nj8668 has joined
1093 2011-04-06 15:12:10 bitcoiner has joined
1094 2011-04-06 15:13:45 lfm has quit (Quit: brb)
1095 2011-04-06 15:14:01 <jgarzik> sipa: did you see gavinandresen's comments on your pull?
1096 2011-04-06 15:14:05 lfm has joined
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1098 2011-04-06 15:15:10 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, i don't understand it, but i don't have time to look into it right now
1099 2011-04-06 15:20:57 <jav> I just updated to the latest git source, and I'm now getting "this is an oversized transaction" for sending 0.03 from a wallet that has only 0.03 in it... is that even possible to be oversized?
1100 2011-04-06 15:21:36 <jav> or have some checks been made tighter or something (?)
1101 2011-04-06 15:25:33 <lfm> there might be a bug in the latest git
1102 2011-04-06 15:26:13 <lfm> jav you arnt using a -txfee= arg eh?
1103 2011-04-06 15:26:27 <jav> lfm: I'm not, no
1104 2011-04-06 15:26:55 <sipa> i checked the source
1105 2011-04-06 15:27:10 <sipa> this error means that the transaction + the required fee is more than what you have in your wallet
1106 2011-04-06 15:27:23 <lfm> or equalt to?
1107 2011-04-06 15:27:38 <sipa> no, strictly more
1108 2011-04-06 15:28:07 <jav> yeah, I saw that in the source as well (so the message can be a little misleading).. but still.. so I can't send 0.03 for free?
1109 2011-04-06 15:28:16 <lfm> jav it is exactly 0.03 in your wallet? you havnt got some microcents somehow or anything?
1110 2011-04-06 15:28:45 devrandom has joined
1111 2011-04-06 15:28:46 <lfm> jav you definatly should be able to send 0.03 for free
1112 2011-04-06 15:30:14 <lfm> if you have some fractions of a cent that would explain it
1113 2011-04-06 15:30:15 remanifest has joined
1114 2011-04-06 15:30:43 darsk1ez is now known as darkskiez
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1116 2011-04-06 15:31:32 <jav> lfm: I can't think of a reason why I should have microcents.. I only sent money between mybitcoin and a local wallet to test a few things
1117 2011-04-06 15:32:37 <lfm> ok, can you tell us the exact time and date of the last transaction in your wallet? (you are using the gui interface?)
1118 2011-04-06 15:34:34 <jav> no, I don't use the GUI and don't have access to it right now .. but obviously I have at least 0.03 in my wallet, otherwise I wouldn't see that in the RPC output, right? so why can't I send that for free somewhere?
1119 2011-04-06 15:35:20 <lfm> jav ok, your getinfo sez your balance is 0.03?
1120 2011-04-06 15:35:45 <lfm> or getbalance
1121 2011-04-06 15:36:34 <jav> yes
1122 2011-04-06 15:36:50 <jav> and this is my mybitcoin address: http://blockexplorer.com/address/18zmG3oH7Qi8sVBpjj5QSwDfyN5gsyZMw9
1123 2011-04-06 15:37:38 <nanotube> jav: that's only one of your addresses, since it doesn't have 3btc balance in it.
1124 2011-04-06 15:37:54 <nanotube> and i guess now we know what's up - your 3btc is probably made up of dozens of small bits
1125 2011-04-06 15:37:58 <nanotube> which increases size of tx in bytes
1126 2011-04-06 15:38:05 <nanotube> hence, probably why client wants to include a txfee
1127 2011-04-06 15:38:09 <jav> no, not 3btc... 0.03btc
1128 2011-04-06 15:38:16 <nanotube> ah
1129 2011-04-06 15:38:24 <lfm> nanotube he sed 0.03btc not 3 btc
1130 2011-04-06 15:38:30 <nanotube> yea ok
1131 2011-04-06 15:38:40 <nanotube> but that address has .16 balance
1132 2011-04-06 15:38:47 <nanotube> much greater than .03...
1133 2011-04-06 15:39:09 <gavinandresen> Latest git does have a change from luke-jr that tries to avoid losing sub-cent change... could be a bug in that code.
1134 2011-04-06 15:39:10 <lfm> ya there must be some other addresses involved, maybe just change addresses
1135 2011-04-06 15:39:42 <lfm> jav ya try going back to the mainline 0.3.20 binaries
1136 2011-04-06 15:40:03 <gavinandresen> And please report back if that fixes it-- I'll back out the sub-cent change
1137 2011-04-06 15:40:36 <jav> when I requested the latest git code to sent 0.02, it included 0.01 fee and created this transaction: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/dfbafebc3fd05948ca524a23515f731fdd894e312a0f47d257dccca054068707
1138 2011-04-06 15:40:55 <luke-jr> jav: listtransactions > pastebin
1139 2011-04-06 15:41:12 <lfm> jav ya sounds like it mistakenly thot you had sume sub cent change in there
1140 2011-04-06 15:41:26 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it's well-tested
1141 2011-04-06 15:41:48 <lfm> luke try sending your last 0.03 out
1142 2011-04-06 15:41:52 sabalaba has joined
1143 2011-04-06 15:42:00 <luke-jr> lfm: k, 1 sec
1144 2011-04-06 15:43:21 <jav> luke-jr: here is the output of listtransactions: http://pastebin.com/Dc6b8Bna
1145 2011-04-06 15:46:30 <luke-jr> I wonder if it's a lack of confirmations?
1146 2011-04-06 15:46:35 <luke-jr> on the change
1147 2011-04-06 15:46:55 <lfm> jav can you try the 0.3.20 realease?
1148 2011-04-06 15:47:09 <lfm> release
1149 2011-04-06 15:47:40 <jav> gavinandresen: ok, I went back to git tag v0.3.20.2 ... I was now able to send those 0.03 BTC without it complaing about oversized transaction or requiring a few
1150 2011-04-06 15:47:54 <luke-jr> jav: do you know how to bisect?
1151 2011-04-06 15:48:04 <jav> luke-jr: my understanding is, that if there are not enough coins to send, the error message would say "insufficient funds".. that is what I got earlier
1152 2011-04-06 15:49:01 <luke-jr> jav: give me an address, I'm going to send you 0.03 to play with, and a patch
1153 2011-04-06 15:49:11 <lfm> jav ya, but the code to handle microcents is pretty messed up and it seems you got involved in that
1154 2011-04-06 15:49:41 <jav> luke-jr: ok, here is an address: 1NCY9NDE2fFwHWznqhMNCRRGJzAiC1hnbc
1155 2011-04-06 15:50:26 <luke-jr> jav: update to latest git and try this patch: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/366591/
1156 2011-04-06 15:50:36 <luke-jr> try to send the 0.03 back to 14Dw79KZUPQZf2pguot2bXziZYGgoVBK4y
1157 2011-04-06 15:50:56 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1158 2011-04-06 15:51:15 <lfm> luke-jr you assume he can compile?
1159 2011-04-06 15:51:25 <luke-jr> lfm: how is he running git if he can't compile?
1160 2011-04-06 15:51:34 <jav> :-)
1161 2011-04-06 15:51:50 <lfm> ok good point
1162 2011-04-06 15:51:55 <luke-jr> :p
1163 2011-04-06 15:52:00 remanifest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1164 2011-04-06 15:52:15 <luke-jr> fwiw, I *am* getting the correct 'Insufficient funds' on my end
1165 2011-04-06 15:52:21 tower has joined
1166 2011-04-06 15:52:36 <luke-jr> which might just mean I need to wait for confirmations to reproduce, time will tell
1167 2011-04-06 15:52:42 <lfm> why is it insufficient funds?
1168 2011-04-06 15:52:55 <luke-jr> lfm: it hasn't confirmed yet
1169 2011-04-06 15:53:01 <lfm> oh ic
1170 2011-04-06 15:53:02 <luke-jr> I'm testing in ljrbot's wallet :P
1171 2011-04-06 15:53:41 <luke-jr> jav: before you try with the patch, test to be sure you get the error, ok?
1172 2011-04-06 15:54:02 <luke-jr> just in case it has something to do with the old 0.03, and my new 0.03 doesn't reproduce it
1173 2011-04-06 15:54:25 <jav> ok
1174 2011-04-06 15:54:26 <gavinandresen> This is probably it:  bool fAllowFree = (nBlockSize + nTxSize < 4000 || CTransaction::AllowFree(dPriority));
1175 2011-04-06 15:54:40 <lfm> looked like it incorrectly charged him a fee on the other txn too
1176 2011-04-06 15:54:49 <gavinandresen> The CTransaction::AllowFree(dPriority) is new-- part of the penny-flooding prevention code.
1177 2011-04-06 15:54:54 satamusic has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1178 2011-04-06 15:54:58 <luke-jr> O.o
1179 2011-04-06 15:55:44 <gavinandresen> A 0.03 BTC transaction with new inputs will have very low priority, and will trip the "you must pay" code.
1180 2011-04-06 15:55:50 <luke-jr> that might explain it. I don't think ljrbot has git with the penny-flood-protection
1181 2011-04-06 15:56:47 <luke-jr> hmm
1182 2011-04-06 15:56:53 <luke-jr> my 0.03 sends aren't getting confirmed :/
1183 2011-04-06 15:57:00 <lfm> so people playing with faucet change will trigger this commonly
1184 2011-04-06 15:58:16 <gavinandresen> yup.  Lots of people playing with faucet change == distributed penny flood....
1185 2011-04-06 15:59:16 <jav> gavinandresen: is this intended then? I think it might be a little to strict then.. as lfm says, it seems like a typical scenario to receive 0.05 from the faucet, then spending/transfering it somewhere else... if in the process 0.01 are already paid, that looks pretty expensive
1186 2011-04-06 16:00:17 <gavinandresen> Hang on, I'm misreading the code... that was just a refactor. 0.3.20 didn't allow very-low-priority txns to go through for free, either
1187 2011-04-06 16:00:34 <jav> luke-jr: alright, so I started testing... using current git, without your patch, I'm also getting "insufficient funds" right now, because your 0.03 have not been confirmed yet... waiting it is then
1188 2011-04-06 16:00:43 <lfm> jav I dont think it was really intended but its getting close to border situations between normal users and malicious ones
1189 2011-04-06 16:00:44 <luke-jr> ok
1190 2011-04-06 16:01:11 <luke-jr> anyone else have an empty wallet I can send 0.03 BTC to for testing?
1191 2011-04-06 16:01:18 <luke-jr> to get the confirmation counting started…
1192 2011-04-06 16:03:28 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1193 2011-04-06 16:03:29 <jav> on the topic of fees in general: I think the client and the RPC code should be more transparent and more careful here... if a transaction requires a fee, than it should tell me, but never include it just because I have enough money to pay it... I think a fee should _always_ be specifically requested in the RPC method call and nothing should happen if a fee is required, but wasn't explicitly 'authorized', so to speak
1194 2011-04-06 16:04:10 <lfm> jav I`d agree with that
1195 2011-04-06 16:04:20 <luke-jr> jav: the new Wallet protocol will support specifying a min and max fee
1196 2011-04-06 16:04:34 <jav> sounds good
1197 2011-04-06 16:04:35 <luke-jr> and optionally prompting you to OK the result
1198 2011-04-06 16:05:49 <lfm> seems like it should be a default to always require ok of any extra fee
1199 2011-04-06 16:06:45 <hozer> hrrm.. is there any debian unstable pkg for wx2.9?
1200 2011-04-06 16:07:01 <lfm> I think most are propted but the ones that try to clean up microcents are the exception
1201 2011-04-06 16:07:13 <luke-jr> lfm: I have a patch to fix that
1202 2011-04-06 16:07:36 <luke-jr> it was separate from my other patch, because gavin said it cause the wx GUI to prompt for 0.00 BTC fee ;p
1203 2011-04-06 16:07:45 <luke-jr> dunno if the new stuff fixes that
1204 2011-04-06 16:08:16 <lfm> luke-jr ok sounds good hehe, that whold area of code is kinda messed up I think
1205 2011-04-06 16:08:38 iostream has joined
1206 2011-04-06 16:08:48 skeledrew1 has joined
1207 2011-04-06 16:09:00 <luke-jr> lfm: all of that codebase is kinda messed up :P
1208 2011-04-06 16:09:24 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1209 2011-04-06 16:09:49 <lfm> well ya but the whole micorcent issue is messed up by policy! grin<
1210 2011-04-06 16:10:00 kiba has joined
1211 2011-04-06 16:10:02 <kiba> yo
1212 2011-04-06 16:10:03 <kiba> everyone
1213 2011-04-06 16:10:07 <lfm> hi
1214 2011-04-06 16:10:12 <kiba> hmm
1215 2011-04-06 16:10:17 <kiba> 30 BTC pledge so far
1216 2011-04-06 16:10:38 <luke-jr> lfm: I have a private branch with different policy too ;p
1217 2011-04-06 16:11:00 <gavinandresen> lfm: what do you mean?  Latest bitcoin is happy to display and send sub-cents.  If you have a solution to penny-flooding under a different policy, lets hear it
1218 2011-04-06 16:11:41 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I think he means spending 0.03 when your wallet only has a single 0.03000001 BTC coin
1219 2011-04-06 16:11:56 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: it silently puts that 0.00000001 into a fee
1220 2011-04-06 16:12:17 <lfm> then it sez it is too small so then it wants 0.01 fee
1221 2011-04-06 16:12:32 <gavinandresen> Right.  If you have a better solution that doesn't open the system up to penny-flooding, I'm all ears.
1222 2011-04-06 16:12:55 <jav> I don't really understand this whole penny-flooding business anyway... what is the motivation behind that? just being annoying or is there anything to be gained?
1223 2011-04-06 16:13:17 <luke-jr> jav: it forces legitimate spends to have a fee
1224 2011-04-06 16:13:23 <gavinandresen> lulz, as the kids say
1225 2011-04-06 16:13:38 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: in that case, it would be nice to ask the user "This requires a 0.00000001 BTC fee"
1226 2011-04-06 16:14:21 <gavinandresen> patches that don't have unintended side-effects welcome.
1227 2011-04-06 16:14:34 <jav> luke-jr: so? a short-sighted miner who wants people to pay fees? ... I think miners are much better off having a well-working system to attract more users
1228 2011-04-06 16:15:02 <lfm> jav: it point is the net can get flooded with tiny-tiny transactions and the social problem is trying to get solved with code. I dont know if it is possible to solve such a problem to everyone`s satisfaction. (I mean I suspect it is impossible)
1229 2011-04-06 16:15:03 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: I made one a few months ago, but at the time it showed 0.00 BTC fee
1230 2011-04-06 16:15:11 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: due to the BTC formatting code in the wx
1231 2011-04-06 16:15:12 <BlueMatt> what is the current ideas for distribution model going forward (download list, included blockchains ect)
1232 2011-04-06 16:15:34 <luke-jr> jav: more likely, someone anti-bitcoin that wants to defeat the system
1233 2011-04-06 16:17:13 <kiba> so...
1234 2011-04-06 16:17:24 <kiba> I got a game project that I am trying to crowdsource
1235 2011-04-06 16:17:24 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1236 2011-04-06 16:17:26 <kiba> for bitcoin
1237 2011-04-06 16:17:28 <kiba> err
1238 2011-04-06 16:17:30 <kiba> crowdfund
1239 2011-04-06 16:17:32 <kiba> for bitcoin
1240 2011-04-06 16:17:33 <kiba> but
1241 2011-04-06 16:17:46 <kiba> it seems that I got a big silence
1242 2011-04-06 16:17:47 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1243 2011-04-06 16:18:02 <hozer> kiba: got a link to a one-paragraph summary?
1244 2011-04-06 16:18:11 <BlueMatt> kiba: the community is a bit small for that atm
1245 2011-04-06 16:18:16 peck has joined
1246 2011-04-06 16:18:59 <topi`> jaromil: i'm just a hobbyist miner! my little brother has much better hardware for that (he's a gamer)
1247 2011-04-06 16:19:13 <kiba> hozer: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
1248 2011-04-06 16:19:39 <kiba> BlueMatt: you're telling me the community can't pool 1200 BTC?
1249 2011-04-06 16:19:54 <BlueMatt> oh only 1200, well maybe not
1250 2011-04-06 16:20:24 <kiba> I am not asking for the impossibl
1251 2011-04-06 16:20:24 <kiba>                                                                        |
1252 2011-04-06 16:20:24 <kiba> e
1253 2011-04-06 16:20:47 <kiba> but at the same time, it's like a big silence in a large forum
1254 2011-04-06 16:21:21 <hozer> kiba: why not a kickstarter project
1255 2011-04-06 16:21:21 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1256 2011-04-06 16:21:47 peck has joined
1257 2011-04-06 16:22:00 <kiba> why?
1258 2011-04-06 16:22:11 <kiba> I like bitcoin
1259 2011-04-06 16:22:16 <kiba> I wanna get paid in bitcoin
1260 2011-04-06 16:22:22 <kiba> don't want dollars
1261 2011-04-06 16:22:30 <BlueMatt> sorry kiba not my style of game, will give you 5 if you make it just out of support though
1262 2011-04-06 16:22:54 <kiba> there's no risk
1263 2011-04-06 16:23:00 <kiba> in pledging bitcoin
1264 2011-04-06 16:23:07 <kiba> if I don't make anything, you don't have to pay http://www.bitcoin.org/newsite2/me
1265 2011-04-06 16:23:08 <BlueMatt> pledged on the forum
1266 2011-04-06 16:23:54 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: jav: FWIW, I just successfully sent 0.03 BTC from an otherwise empty wallet
1267 2011-04-06 16:24:27 <luke-jr> based on 8f58d0dbc8cc05d0969373eb4c0a555931b64245
1268 2011-04-06 16:27:03 <gavinandresen> staring at the transaction-fee code, the only think I can think of is that jav's first transaction triggered the penny-flooding code.  Then time passed, and the second time the coins in his wallet were more mature so they have higher priority so did NOT trigger the penny-flooding code.
1269 2011-04-06 16:27:39 <gavinandresen> So it might not be a 0.3.21 versus 0.3.20 issue at all.
1270 2011-04-06 16:29:03 ThrobbingPython has joined
1271 2011-04-06 16:31:25 <jav> could be... unfortunately I don't have more time to test right now and my coins are still unconfirmed right now, will look into that more some other time ... luke-jr, I'll send you your 0.03 back from another account
1272 2011-04-06 16:32:12 <luke-jr> sigh
1273 2011-04-06 16:32:54 sacarlson has joined
1274 2011-04-06 16:33:14 <jav> see you guys
1275 2011-04-06 16:33:16 jav has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1276 2011-04-06 16:33:41 Tril has joined
1277 2011-04-06 16:35:02 <topi`> why is it that it takes usually more than an hour to confirm one transaction? e.g. 6 confirmations
1278 2011-04-06 16:35:32 <topi`> because even now, my bt client has 8 connections, which means that it could immediately reach 8 nodes and ask for verifying the transaction
1279 2011-04-06 16:35:47 <lfm> topi`: cuz transactions are by design on every 10 min on average
1280 2011-04-06 16:36:02 <lfm> or blocks, not txn
1281 2011-04-06 16:36:07 <topi`> hmm, so the transactions are artificially rate-limited?
1282 2011-04-06 16:36:36 <BlueMatt> topi`: its a necessity to prevent double spending
1283 2011-04-06 16:36:49 <BlueMatt> topi`: and please ask non-development questions on #bitcoin-discussion
1284 2011-04-06 16:36:57 <lfm> sorry no you can have 100s of txn per block but only confirming blocks are 6 per hour
1285 2011-04-06 16:37:37 <topi`> Blue: sorry :(
1286 2011-04-06 16:38:19 lfm has quit (Quit: brb)
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1288 2011-04-06 16:39:01 lfm has quit (Client Quit)
1289 2011-04-06 16:39:43 lfm has joined
1290 2011-04-06 16:44:29 <lfm> who?
1291 2011-04-06 16:46:20 trentzb has joined
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1293 2011-04-06 16:48:52 gavinandresen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1295 2011-04-06 17:01:42 <jaromil> i've just written a small article on the bitcoin presentation held at EPCA2011 today
1296 2011-04-06 17:01:47 <jaromil> http://www.dyndy.net/2011/04/bitcoin-presented-to-the-old-world/
1297 2011-04-06 17:01:55 ThrobbingPython has quit ()
1298 2011-04-06 17:02:40 <Blitzboom> cool, will read
1299 2011-04-06 17:04:21 <topi`> go jaromil go :D
1300 2011-04-06 17:04:36 <topi`> jaromil: I'm also writing an article about bitcoin and its future and what it means for all of us
1301 2011-04-06 17:04:52 <topi`> from a slightly more economist perspective than usual
1302 2011-04-06 17:04:58 <BlueMatt> nice jaromil
1303 2011-04-06 17:06:36 <topi`> jaromil: judging from the pic, the benches seem pretty much empty. did ppl "disappear" because they had some prejudice against nerdish hackers coming to present ?
1304 2011-04-06 17:06:59 <Blitzboom> how was the reaction of the audience?
1305 2011-04-06 17:07:04 <Blitzboom> anyone interested?
1306 2011-04-06 17:07:10 maikmerten has joined
1307 2011-04-06 17:07:52 <BlueMatt> judging bt the article, interested but probably wont do anything with it.  Atleast they know it exists
1308 2011-04-06 17:08:01 <jaromil> topi`: the room was big, however there were at least 50 ppl
1309 2011-04-06 17:08:19 <jaromil> all suits
1310 2011-04-06 17:08:45 <jaromil> i regret having missed the good picture: one with some more impressive slides that were shown
1311 2011-04-06 17:09:20 <jaromil> BlueMatt: the article is just my first impression and i'm not really an expert of corporate world
1312 2011-04-06 17:09:52 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1313 2011-04-06 17:10:01 <jaromil> i'm trying to visualize also what can be done better: note we still need positive narratives on anonymity imho
1314 2011-04-06 17:10:42 <jaromil> Blitzboom: the reaction was from extremely interested (we were approached by 4-5 ppl plus the organizers)
1315 2011-04-06 17:10:58 <jaromil> to suspicious (watching us from far with serious faces)
1316 2011-04-06 17:11:05 <Blitzboom> haha
1317 2011-04-06 17:11:10 <jaromil> to entertained (finally something sexy on this stage)
1318 2011-04-06 17:11:22 <lfm> jaromil: you saying drug dealing and money laundering ares compelling enuf? (grin)
1319 2011-04-06 17:11:39 <jaromil> lfm: in fact they seemed very compelling to the audience :)
1320 2011-04-06 17:11:43 <Blitzboom> did you seriously present silk road and laundering services? :D
1321 2011-04-06 17:12:02 <jaromil> silk road is down, but yes laundering was presented :D
1322 2011-04-06 17:12:14 <Blitzboom> hahaha
1323 2011-04-06 17:12:23 <Blitzboom> i’m sure we can expect money launderers to be interested now
1324 2011-04-06 17:12:41 <jaromil> mmm, i think genjix is getting a ticket to south africa soon
1325 2011-04-06 17:12:47 <hozer> oh boy
1326 2011-04-06 17:12:52 * kiba raised 85 out of 1200 BTC so far
1327 2011-04-06 17:13:23 <jaromil> we had also an interesting discussion some days ago at pixxxel.net event also tobi was present
1328 2011-04-06 17:13:44 <jaromil> i found interesting the negative remarks of a policy maker type sitting with us, noticing how the system is geared for laundering
1329 2011-04-06 17:14:08 <jaromil> i've pointed out how the present economic system works also very well for laundering for example with house speculation in Amsterdam itself
1330 2011-04-06 17:14:27 <jaromil> her insight in that was "well at least we thought of the system in good faith"
1331 2011-04-06 17:14:30 <kiba> hmm
1332 2011-04-06 17:14:50 skeledrew has joined
1333 2011-04-06 17:15:38 <hozer> jaromil: so you got what you thought was positive reaction from the suites about the negative aspects of anonymity?
1334 2011-04-06 17:16:32 <hozer> geez, I'm gonna have to figure out how to put bitcoin revenue on my taxes now ;)
1335 2011-04-06 17:16:41 <jaromil> hozer: i'd define it sarcastic. read the quote by M. Price in the article (from a twit)
1336 2011-04-06 17:17:24 <hozer> hah
1337 2011-04-06 17:18:13 ArtForzZy has joined
1338 2011-04-06 17:18:35 tower has joined
1339 2011-04-06 17:18:45 ArtForzZz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1340 2011-04-06 17:18:47 JFK911_ has joined
1341 2011-04-06 17:19:05 <jaromil> as an external observer (i'm not a stakeholder so far) i'd recommend that the bitcoin community opens a channel of communication with policy makers and governance on new models for "taxation / social funds" rather than join the rethoric of tea baggers, but then that's just my opinion again
1342 2011-04-06 17:19:09 <kiba> introduce
1343 2011-04-06 17:19:10 <kiba> the
1344 2011-04-06 17:19:25 <kiba> crypto-dilemma
1345 2011-04-06 17:20:15 JFK911 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1346 2011-04-06 17:20:34 <kiba> Bitcoin is a technology that can be used for good and evil..but fighting it will be nearly impossible
1347 2011-04-06 17:20:53 <EvanR-work> jaromil: i dont see the bitcoin community being aligned with tea baggers officially or in principle
1348 2011-04-06 17:21:18 robblesz has quit ()
1349 2011-04-06 17:21:21 <hozer> I've been trying to promote bitcoin for the local foods/slow money groups
1350 2011-04-06 17:21:34 <jaromil> EvanR-work: i also don't. its completely open, but from the thick glasses of policy makers bitcoin can be easily assimilated to their fears for tea baggers
1351 2011-04-06 17:21:53 <kiba> how about the narrative of connecting the global economy through grassroot effort instead of just the megacorporation?
1352 2011-04-06 17:21:54 <jaromil> hozer: great!! do you have some documentation about that?
1353 2011-04-06 17:22:04 <jaromil> kiba: yea!
1354 2011-04-06 17:22:05 <CIA-96> bitcoin: mtve * r0f769b..583dc2 bitcoin-pl/ (10 files): (11 commits) http://tinyurl.com/42qv2gh
1355 2011-04-06 17:22:12 <hozer> jaromil: no, not yet
1356 2011-04-06 17:22:15 <luke-jr> :o
1357 2011-04-06 17:22:20 <jaromil> u guys have done more than i can talk about
1358 2011-04-06 17:22:22 <jaromil> document it!
1359 2011-04-06 17:22:37 <lfm> jaromil: i figure a policy maker response to bitcoin would be "how can we control this"
1360 2011-04-06 17:22:46 <kiba> I have an interesting narrative people might like
1361 2011-04-06 17:22:47 <luke-jr> mtve: why revert my fix?
1362 2011-04-06 17:22:50 <hozer> lfm: easy: hire coders
1363 2011-04-06 17:23:00 <kiba> "I crowdfunded my game with bitcoin!"
1364 2011-04-06 17:23:26 <jaromil> lfm: the response then can be "forget control, you already fucked it all up. now let's talk."
1365 2011-04-06 17:23:34 <EvanR-work> jaromil: also, not to siphon discussion away from -dev but #bitcoin-politics exists
1366 2011-04-06 17:23:42 <jaromil> EvanR-work: ack
1367 2011-04-06 17:23:50 <hozer> I will happily provide my engineering services to anyone wishing to control bitcoin for $125/hour
1368 2011-04-06 17:23:58 JFK911_ is now known as JFK911
1369 2011-04-06 17:24:01 FabianB_ has joined
1370 2011-04-06 17:24:10 <jaromil> hozer: :DDD
1371 2011-04-06 17:24:16 <hozer> of course, I'm going to turn around and buy wind turbines, miners, and then crowdfund Kiba's game
1372 2011-04-06 17:24:19 <EvanR-work> hozer: sorry, government just cut the 'control people powered movements' budget
1373 2011-04-06 17:25:14 <jaromil> EvanR-work: u sure? EU FP7 funding round has invested 4 billions in orwellian technology
1374 2011-04-06 17:25:15 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1375 2011-04-06 17:25:20 <hozer> evanr-work: Oh darn. Too bad for them. I guess they can't afford the control anymore
1376 2011-04-06 17:25:26 <EvanR-work> jaromil: i was talking about US
1377 2011-04-06 17:25:41 <EvanR-work> we broke
1378 2011-04-06 17:25:44 <jaromil> EvanR-work: oh yea, US is waay better off EU ATM, IMHO
1379 2011-04-06 17:25:52 <jaromil> than
1380 2011-04-06 17:26:20 <jaromil> over here things are going  bonkers
1381 2011-04-06 17:26:40 <EvanR-work> orwellian technology, sounds like freestateinitiative, which is coinsidentally lead by a euro
1382 2011-04-06 17:27:11 <luke-jr> mtve: oh, I see… but that seems backward, and counter to reality
1383 2011-04-06 17:27:12 <kiba> who hate internet pirates
1384 2011-04-06 17:27:46 <jaromil> last 2 years alone there have been more riots and protests than in the last 10 years in EU and just vast amounts of violent repression was used on people, very little dialogue out of domesticated puppet circles
1385 2011-04-06 17:28:00 <jaromil> and very little media coverage as well
1386 2011-04-06 17:28:25 <jaromil> this site has a good picture of contemporary EU IMHO http://th-rough.eu/
1387 2011-04-06 17:28:28 <EvanR-work> thats what they want you to think
1388 2011-04-06 17:28:45 <EvanR-work> (tm)
1389 2011-04-06 17:28:46 <kiba> I am not aware of the riot
1390 2011-04-06 17:28:48 <kiba> and protest
1391 2011-04-06 17:28:58 <lfm> jaromil: well some of em are realizing they can afford the old ways of keeping people happy and fat any more
1392 2011-04-06 17:29:15 <jaromil> kiba: started in greece. last 2 years lots of universities were occupied...
1393 2011-04-06 17:29:19 <kiba> the political consenus is breaking down
1394 2011-04-06 17:29:20 <jaromil> all over europe
1395 2011-04-06 17:29:36 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1396 2011-04-06 17:29:41 <kiba> the political class, the elderly are stubborn to hold on to their pension
1397 2011-04-06 17:29:58 <EvanR-work> soylent green
1398 2011-04-06 17:30:00 <EvanR-work> sorted
1399 2011-04-06 17:30:08 <lfm> kiba well they payed for those pensions long enuf
1400 2011-04-06 17:30:39 <kiba> lfm: that may be so..but the incentive is so out of whack that they don't care about the young
1401 2011-04-06 17:31:09 <lfm> depends on point of view, the young just want to steal those pension funds
1402 2011-04-06 17:31:27 <kiba> and so it will break down
1403 2011-04-06 17:31:41 <kiba> the alienation between the generations
1404 2011-04-06 17:31:48 nj8668 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1405 2011-04-06 17:33:02 <hozer> there's this wonderful thing called inflation to deal with pension obligations
1406 2011-04-06 17:33:08 <sirius-m> lfm: or not be the payers of the ponzi scheme :/
1407 2011-04-06 17:33:40 <kiba> the politicans are caught between a rock and a hard place
1408 2011-04-06 17:34:01 <hozer> meanwhile, the real work (like local foods & cryptocurrencies) happens quietly
1409 2011-04-06 17:34:26 <lfm> gee, if only we could get all thos epolitician in between a rock and a hard place! grin
1410 2011-04-06 17:34:40 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1411 2011-04-06 17:34:57 <kiba> well, the incentive of politicans long ago is to win political victory at the expense of the future
1412 2011-04-06 17:35:02 <kiba> political
1413 2011-04-06 17:35:03 <kiba> reality
1414 2011-04-06 17:35:19 tower has joined
1415 2011-04-06 17:35:47 AtlasLGo has joined
1416 2011-04-06 17:35:51 <nefario> jaromil:genjix????
1417 2011-04-06 17:36:02 <AtlasLGo> I heard there was some butthurt in here.
1418 2011-04-06 17:36:12 <kiba> yo
1419 2011-04-06 17:36:17 <AtlasLGo> Yo.
1420 2011-04-06 17:37:35 <kiba> I should get to work preparing my VPS for that multiplayer tetris game
1421 2011-04-06 17:37:35 nj8668 has joined
1422 2011-04-06 17:38:21 <nefario> kiba
1423 2011-04-06 17:38:39 <nefario> why you working on games when there are real problems in the real world that need to be solved
1424 2011-04-06 17:38:49 <kiba> and?
1425 2011-04-06 17:38:58 <kiba> that's my skill
1426 2011-04-06 17:38:59 <AtlasLGo> You are starting to sound like LightRider, nefario.
1427 2011-04-06 17:39:30 <nefario> really? sorry, I've had a few beers, I'm a nasty drunk
1428 2011-04-06 17:39:40 <nefario> What I mean is:
1429 2011-04-06 17:40:03 <lfm> nefario: why are you drinking beer when there are real problems in the real
1430 2011-04-06 17:40:04 <lfm>           world that need to be solved
1431 2011-04-06 17:40:08 <sirius-m> :D
1432 2011-04-06 17:40:13 <AtlasLGo> Why do people spend money on stuff? They should all be working for the common good, not money.
1433 2011-04-06 17:40:22 <nefario> how about a handy way to allow users of social networking to communcate with their friends in a secure, and private way
1434 2011-04-06 17:40:26 <AtlasLGo> If we all just slaved over problems we would all be happy.
1435 2011-04-06 17:40:29 <kiba> what's the common good?
1436 2011-04-06 17:40:38 <AtlasLGo> What Light Rider defines it to be.
1437 2011-04-06 17:40:42 <kiba> nefario: I don't know anything about that
1438 2011-04-06 17:40:43 <nefario> a kind of darknet that builds on top of sites like facebook and renren
1439 2011-04-06 17:40:46 <kiba> but I do know about games
1440 2011-04-06 17:40:53 <AtlasLGo> ...or what the computers tell us.
1441 2011-04-06 17:40:55 <nefario> oh, ok then
1442 2011-04-06 17:41:03 <AtlasLGo> Honestly, the Zeigeists intrique me.
1443 2011-04-06 17:41:18 <nefario> lfm :b
1444 2011-04-06 17:41:19 <AtlasLGo> I wonder if it is any different than Marxism.
1445 2011-04-06 17:41:25 <jaromil> nefario: he is getting online now
1446 2011-04-06 17:41:27 <kiba> AtlasLGo: I don't know.
1447 2011-04-06 17:42:15 <AtlasLGo> I certainly don't like how they view humans as only a byproduct of a larger organism. Yuck.
1448 2011-04-06 17:42:43 <kiba> smells icky to individualists
1449 2011-04-06 17:42:46 <hozer> AtlasLGo: the Zeitgeist movie?
1450 2011-04-06 17:43:05 <AtlasLGo> Zeitgeist movement overall. The Venus Project, etc.
1451 2011-04-06 17:43:14 <hozer> they don't get it.
1452 2011-04-06 17:43:27 genjix has joined
1453 2011-04-06 17:43:27 genjix has quit (Changing host)
1454 2011-04-06 17:43:27 genjix has joined
1455 2011-04-06 17:43:28 <lfm> AtlasLGo: so "the workers control the means of production" make people a byproduct?
1456 2011-04-06 17:43:32 <AtlasLGo> So far I just see it as Marxism with a new colorful label with futuristic buildings.
1457 2011-04-06 17:43:50 <hozer> there's an example of one of these futuristic high-density cities. It's called New York
1458 2011-04-06 17:43:55 <jaromil> i find it boring. rather read mcluhan than watch zeitgeist, at least his writing is better articulated and less propagandist
1459 2011-04-06 17:44:06 <AtlasLGo> lfm: No, they think humans can be "conditioned" by their environments and they have no say in their thinking.
1460 2011-04-06 17:44:07 <hozer> and if you look at interestates, they already have the ring structure he talks about.
1461 2011-04-06 17:44:35 <genjix> nefario: hey back. are you on the vps?
1462 2011-04-06 17:44:40 bitcoiner_ has joined
1463 2011-04-06 17:44:43 <nefario> I am
1464 2011-04-06 17:44:47 <nefario> give me a min
1465 2011-04-06 17:45:20 nj8668 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1466 2011-04-06 17:45:27 * kiba add a new headline to the bitcoinwatch news feed
1467 2011-04-06 17:45:35 <kiba> Bitcoin Presented to Old-School Bankers
1468 2011-04-06 17:45:41 <lfm> AtlasLGo: seems like putting "workers" in charge of there production is just the opposite to what you're saying. actually it seems you are talking more about communism than marxism
1469 2011-04-06 17:45:49 nj8668 has joined
1470 2011-04-06 17:46:05 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1471 2011-04-06 17:46:12 <genjix> http://www.dyndy.net/2011/04/bitcoin-presented-to-the-old-world/
1472 2011-04-06 17:46:17 bitcoiner_ is now known as bitcoiner
1473 2011-04-06 17:46:22 <AtlasLGo> lfm: I simply cannot understand why they want all workers to have a say in production. It's implying they have the desire or intelligence to manage a factory.
1474 2011-04-06 17:46:26 <kiba> that's the link
1475 2011-04-06 17:46:26 bitcoiner has quit (Client Quit)
1476 2011-04-06 17:46:28 <kiba> I added
1477 2011-04-06 17:46:28 <AtlasLGo> Well, most of them.
1478 2011-04-06 17:46:33 <kiba> to the bitcoinwatch news feed
1479 2011-04-06 17:46:52 <AtlasLGo> Some people just want a lame old factory job.
1480 2011-04-06 17:46:54 bitcoiner has joined
1481 2011-04-06 17:47:00 <AtlasLGo> Nothing else.
1482 2011-04-06 17:47:01 <kiba> they think capitalists are fatcat unproductive lazy ass rich folks
1483 2011-04-06 17:47:42 <lfm> AtlasLGo: so you think "workers" are stupid and should not have a say in what they should be forced to do? interesting
1484 2011-04-06 17:47:52 <AtlasLGo> I need to get my hands on some communist literature and figure these guys out.
1485 2011-04-06 17:48:15 <kiba> lfm: that's a strawman
1486 2011-04-06 17:48:24 <kiba> some people just want a job
1487 2011-04-06 17:48:27 <kiba> like me
1488 2011-04-06 17:48:29 <hozer> lfm: define 'forced' ... it's by choice
1489 2011-04-06 17:48:41 <hozer> we have to be very clear about the difference between 'want' and 'need' here
1490 2011-04-06 17:48:45 <hozer> nobody 'needs' a job
1491 2011-04-06 17:48:55 <AtlasLGo> lfm: You are putting words in my mouth.
1492 2011-04-06 17:48:59 <hozer> we *need* food, shelter, water
1493 2011-04-06 17:49:06 <AtlasLGo> lfm: Workers shouldn't be forced to have a say in production.
1494 2011-04-06 17:49:40 <hozer> how about this: Workers should have the free choice to participate in whatever level they choose
1495 2011-04-06 17:49:42 blablaa has joined
1496 2011-04-06 17:49:57 <AtlasLGo> hozer: Well, depends on who owns the company and its assets.
1497 2011-04-06 17:50:18 <kiba> hozer: it works in the other direction too
1498 2011-04-06 17:50:31 <lfm> hozer: according to AtlasLGo only owners are smart enuf to run things
1499 2011-04-06 17:50:51 <AtlasLGo> I never said that.
1500 2011-04-06 17:51:01 <kiba> strawmanning your opponent is bad practice, lfm
1501 2011-04-06 17:51:02 <hozer> well now, let's have AtlasLGo clear up the confusion then
1502 2011-04-06 17:51:47 <AtlasLGo> lfm: You can't manage what you don't possess though. Of course, the founders could give shares to employees that grant them say in the company.
1503 2011-04-06 17:51:51 <lfm> yup, having money, no matter how you got it, makes you smarter than anyone who has to work for a living
1504 2011-04-06 17:52:18 <hozer> lfm: I don't understand what you're saying
1505 2011-04-06 17:52:20 <AtlasLGo> No, owning part of the company holds you accountable to what you do with it.
1506 2011-04-06 17:53:10 <AtlasLGo> Should you let the people who mow your lawn have a say in how you place your garden gnomes?
1507 2011-04-06 17:53:13 <hozer> Ownership implies accountability, and responsibility (and liability) for the actions of what is owned
1508 2011-04-06 17:53:23 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1509 2011-04-06 17:54:20 <jaromil> c'mon, if chuck norris fights for the rights of workers, the world can become a better place!
1510 2011-04-06 17:54:25 <hozer> There are whiners who own stuff and avoid responsbility, and there are whiners who do not own stuff, and whine about why they don't own stuff
1511 2011-04-06 17:54:38 <hozer> let Chuck sort 'em out ;P
1512 2011-04-06 17:54:46 <jaromil> go chuck go
1513 2011-04-06 17:54:50 <lfm> and actually doing the work doesnt imply any responsibility? it seems it can be handed out however you want to set up your system
1514 2011-04-06 17:55:16 <AtlasLGo> Work is voluntary. If you don't like how the company is run, don't work for them.
1515 2011-04-06 17:55:31 <kiba> sometime people don't want the burden of having to worry aMarketplacebout if their enterprise is going die next week or tomorrow
1516 2011-04-06 17:55:31 <lfm> and ownership is not voluntary?
1517 2011-04-06 17:55:35 <AtlasLGo> You get paid for your service. If you don't like the pay, don't work.
1518 2011-04-06 17:55:48 <AtlasLGo> lfm: It's fundamentally different.
1519 2011-04-06 17:55:55 d4de has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1520 2011-04-06 17:56:11 <lfm> if you dont like the way the factory is run, but some other factory
1521 2011-04-06 17:56:17 <lfm> if you dont like the way the factory is run, buy some other factory
1522 2011-04-06 17:56:18 <kiba> on the other hand
1523 2011-04-06 17:56:25 <jaromil> mmm, i personally don't like to work. i hate work. and i'm also very picky on what i like to do :)
1524 2011-04-06 17:56:30 <kiba> having a share in the company meant you have a stake in the company's survival
1525 2011-04-06 17:56:45 <AtlasLGo> jaromil: Well, you have to sustain yourself as an organism some way.
1526 2011-04-06 17:56:59 <jaromil> yea, my gf helps a lot on that :D
1527 2011-04-06 17:57:04 <AtlasLGo> Work without a share is otherwise on a contract basis.
1528 2011-04-06 17:57:26 aksoo has joined
1529 2011-04-06 17:57:29 <hozer> AtlasLGo: or you have to make the decision to let the organism die
1530 2011-04-06 17:57:56 <AtlasLGo> hozer: It's not my choice.
1531 2011-04-06 17:58:05 <AtlasLGo> The organism is reponsible for itself.
1532 2011-04-06 17:58:06 <lfm> you are just describing how capitalism works, not how everything must work
1533 2011-04-06 17:58:34 <hozer> AtlasLGo: if you're the owner, you have the responsibility to make the choice to continue operations, or close up shop and liquidate assets
1534 2011-04-06 17:58:51 <AtlasLGo> Capitalism is just voluntary trade with one another. It's innate business sense. I see nothing wrong with it in a pure form.
1535 2011-04-06 17:59:25 <AtlasLGo> hozer: Of course.
1536 2011-04-06 17:59:41 <AtlasLGo> Capitalism also implies property.
1537 2011-04-06 17:59:46 <AtlasLGo> You may not believe in that.
1538 2011-04-06 17:59:49 kelp has left ()
1539 2011-04-06 18:00:04 <AtlasLGo> I certainly would like to own my own body.
1540 2011-04-06 18:00:10 <AtlasLGo> ...but some seem to disagree.
1541 2011-04-06 18:00:35 <hozer> HAH, I have a bumper sticker I picked up in eastern colorado.. it says "What will you do when the government owns you"
1542 2011-04-06 18:00:40 <AtlasLGo> It apparently belongs to the poor and weak in the perspective of many.
1543 2011-04-06 18:00:47 <lfm> actually your body owns you
1544 2011-04-06 18:00:53 <AtlasLGo> Deep.
1545 2011-04-06 18:01:12 <AtlasLGo> ...but I still have some control of the body.
1546 2011-04-06 18:01:28 <AtlasLGo> My concious has to protect it.
1547 2011-04-06 18:01:39 <AtlasLGo> With resources.
1548 2011-04-06 18:01:44 <kiba> AtlasLGo: if the poor and the weak owns the factory, than they are more powerful than the "strongman"
1549 2011-04-06 18:01:49 <lfm> sure, you can make it stop breathing --- for a little while
1550 2011-04-06 18:01:59 <kiba> but of course, that's a bunch of nonsense. In any society, you will ahve "strongmen"
1551 2011-04-06 18:01:59 <hozer> kiba: and by definition, they are not poor anymore
1552 2011-04-06 18:02:01 <kiba> and alpha males
1553 2011-04-06 18:02:14 <AtlasLGo> It's arbitrary labels.
1554 2011-04-06 18:02:31 <AtlasLGo> In the end, it's just a matter of jealousy.
1555 2011-04-06 18:02:40 <hozer> my take is we should be educating the weak and the poor on how they can choose to become powerful
1556 2011-04-06 18:02:46 <lfm> kiba seems like you're in favor of despotism
1557 2011-04-06 18:02:50 <jaromil> LOL TRUE <lfm> actually your body owns you
1558 2011-04-06 18:02:53 <kiba> for the love of god
1559 2011-04-06 18:02:57 <AtlasLGo> My take is just let things fail.
1560 2011-04-06 18:03:00 <kiba> don't strawman your opponent!
1561 2011-04-06 18:03:01 <AtlasLGo> We'll figure it out.
1562 2011-04-06 18:03:07 <kiba> actually, Eris
1563 2011-04-06 18:03:13 <kiba> my favorite goddess in the world
1564 2011-04-06 18:03:40 <AtlasLGo> Failure is prosperity as long as we choose to learn from it.
1565 2011-04-06 18:04:06 <AtlasLGo> We need to perform the scientific method on a societal level.
1566 2011-04-06 18:04:12 <AtlasLGo> We need different experiments.
1567 2011-04-06 18:04:16 <jaromil> u guys are a funny bunch :D EvanR-work i'll to it in the other chan next time, for now was phun.
1568 2011-04-06 18:04:36 d4de has joined
1569 2011-04-06 18:04:46 <jaromil> where should i send a git patch in case i write some code for the commandline client?
1570 2011-04-06 18:04:55 <jaromil> i'd like to gnuify it a bit
1571 2011-04-06 18:05:12 <AtlasLGo> Well, la dee freakin dah, look at on-topic guy over here.
1572 2011-04-06 18:05:13 <lfm> jaromil: you can email it to gavinadresen I think
1573 2011-04-06 18:05:26 <sipa> jaromil: or read http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4571.0
1574 2011-04-06 18:05:29 <lfm> jaromil: or post it on the forums
1575 2011-04-06 18:06:11 <jaromil> gaa :) pasting a patch on a web forum lowers my karma
1576 2011-04-06 18:06:28 <lfm> jaromil: too bad
1577 2011-04-06 18:06:30 <AtlasLGo> God hates web forums?
1578 2011-04-06 18:06:47 <AtlasLGo> I guess they encourage too much questioning.
1579 2011-04-06 18:06:49 <kiba> Eris love web forums!
1580 2011-04-06 18:06:56 <jaromil> i have two basic ideas: one is normalization of the commandline, the gnu way and a litl manual
1581 2011-04-06 18:07:03 <kiba> The Goddess of Chaos love questioning
1582 2011-04-06 18:07:04 <lfm> someone might critisize it
1583 2011-04-06 18:07:29 <hozer> kiba: She'll question you right into oblivion
1584 2011-04-06 18:07:38 <kiba> lol
1585 2011-04-06 18:08:00 <AtlasLGo> Discordianism seems like a nice religion.
1586 2011-04-06 18:08:02 <jaromil> well since we are here and i have 0BTC if u like to support my good intentions donate to 1GJehYZs5BZfL4RTCBFUpTVrjX6XRhDWdq :D
1587 2011-04-06 18:08:04 <lfm> jaromil: well the current command line is already in a lot of scripts so good luck with that
1588 2011-04-06 18:08:06 <AtlasLGo> I agree with it so far.
1589 2011-04-06 18:08:24 <jaromil> lfm: ACK. i'm sure retrocompaticility can be kept
1590 2011-04-06 18:08:29 <jaromil> and should then
1591 2011-04-06 18:08:31 <AtlasLGo> >Discordianism can be interpreted as a belief that disharmony and chaos are equally valid aspects of reality.
1592 2011-04-06 18:08:36 <AtlasLGo> I can't argue with that.
1593 2011-04-06 18:08:42 <hozer> okay, what the heck am I missing.. debian squeeze, but wxwidgets 2.9.1 is not finding 'inotify() or kqueue()'
1594 2011-04-06 18:09:37 <lfm> hozer: you sure those arnt in boost?
1595 2011-04-06 18:09:44 <jaromil> another thing i'm hacking on is MIPS devices... will look into building bitcoin for home appliances :D
1596 2011-04-06 18:10:12 <jaromil> arm and mips builds are phun using emdebian
1597 2011-04-06 18:10:43 <lfm> jaromil: so long as it is little endian bitcoin should port relativly easy. if its big-endian you will be in deep crap
1598 2011-04-06 18:11:00 <jaromil> lfm: ACK
1599 2011-04-06 18:11:08 <hozer> bah, you little endian opressors!
1600 2011-04-06 18:11:24 <hozer> why is it endian-fubar?
1601 2011-04-06 18:11:45 <lfm> it was built for pcs
1602 2011-04-06 18:11:48 <jaromil> i guess some "bitshifting optimization"
1603 2011-04-06 18:11:58 <hozer> jaromil: we should work on that
1604 2011-04-06 18:12:09 <hozer> I have a ppc debian box (big-endian)
1605 2011-04-06 18:12:17 <jaromil> binary operations ...
1606 2011-04-06 18:12:18 <hacim> jaromil: the debian package has autobuilt for armel, mips, mipsel already
1607 2011-04-06 18:12:19 <jaromil> i also have one
1608 2011-04-06 18:12:49 <hozer> I want a binary for HP WebOS (arm linux)
1609 2011-04-06 18:12:52 <lfm> hozer: well ppc is not the sort of pc its built for, sorry
1610 2011-04-06 18:13:03 <jaromil> hacim: does it links uClinux? i need that
1611 2011-04-06 18:13:05 <hacim> the full list of built architectures is: alpha, amd64, armel, hppa, i386, ia64, kfreebsd-amd64, kfreebsd-i386, mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, sparc
1612 2011-04-06 18:13:08 <kiba> gottach go soon
1613 2011-04-06 18:13:10 <kiba> see ya
1614 2011-04-06 18:13:12 kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1615 2011-04-06 18:13:31 <hozer> so it at least builds
1616 2011-04-06 18:13:45 <hacim> jaromil: what do you mean 'links uClinux'?
1617 2011-04-06 18:14:46 ForceDestroyer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1618 2011-04-06 18:14:54 <lfm> jaromil: you might be well advised to look into the google bitcoin libs
1619 2011-04-06 18:15:04 <jaromil> i mean links uclinux instead of libc
1620 2011-04-06 18:15:14 <hozer> is armv7 usuallly big or little endian
1621 2011-04-06 18:15:16 <jaromil> its a minimalist version of libc
1622 2011-04-06 18:15:20 <lfm> no ida about uclib
1623 2011-04-06 18:15:20 AtlasLGo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1624 2011-04-06 18:15:22 <jaromil> used in openwrd and nslu2
1625 2011-04-06 18:15:27 <jaromil> openwrt sry
1626 2011-04-06 18:15:34 <hozer> jaromil: have you tried it yet?
1627 2011-04-06 18:15:40 ForceDestroyer has joined
1628 2011-04-06 18:15:40 <jaromil> nope
1629 2011-04-06 18:15:41 <hozer> and have you played with open-mesh.org?
1630 2011-04-06 18:15:58 <jaromil> i've played with openwrt and olsrd in the past
1631 2011-04-06 18:16:15 <jaromil> open-mesh? ah yea you mean BATMAN
1632 2011-04-06 18:16:21 toffoo has joined
1633 2011-04-06 18:16:21 <jaromil> these people are cool! :D
1634 2011-04-06 18:16:26 <hozer> open-mesh.com will get you an under $40 or so embedded board
1635 2011-04-06 18:16:35 <hacim> jaromil: ah, you would need to look at the build logs to see
1636 2011-04-06 18:16:39 <hozer> I think it's mips
1637 2011-04-06 18:16:42 Xunie has joined
1638 2011-04-06 18:17:06 <lfm> ya some mips are little endian tho right?
1639 2011-04-06 18:17:13 <jaromil> hozer: specifically i'm hacking on wdtv hd live devices with b-rad's homebrew firmware see wdlxtv.com
1640 2011-04-06 18:17:37 <jaromil> they setup a very nice php and js interface too, so the device has a web server
1641 2011-04-06 18:17:48 <jaromil> genjix told me there is a php gui around, right?
1642 2011-04-06 18:18:07 <jaromil> the wdlxtv community is pretty nice
1643 2011-04-06 18:18:50 <genjix> no php api, not gui
1644 2011-04-06 18:18:59 <genjix> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_%28JSON-RPC%29#PHP
1645 2011-04-06 18:19:01 <topi`> why is it so that even though my miner found 4 shares in the current block on slush's pool, the score is diminishing all the time, from 11.5 to current 0.0001 - which will give me 2*10^-7 bitcoins
1646 2011-04-06 18:19:05 <topi`> grrr
1647 2011-04-06 18:19:23 <jaromil> ack
1648 2011-04-06 18:19:46 <doublec> topi`: IIRC slush's pool decreases the value of shares over time
1649 2011-04-06 18:20:02 <jaromil> however bfor starting i want to have a share on this pile, spare some bitcoins! 1GJehYZs5BZfL4RTCBFUpTVrjX6XRhDWdq
1650 2011-04-06 18:20:17 * jaromil bragging and spamming his brand new hash
1651 2011-04-06 18:21:12 <lfm> topi`: you share each block with other miners, they have also been adding shares to the pool
1652 2011-04-06 18:21:26 <jgarzik> hozer, jaromil, hacim: the bitcoin codebase explicitly assumes little endian byte ordering, by hardcoding byte-swaps to/from big endian; manually crafting little endian 160-bit and 256-integers, and other arcana not often found in other software.
1653 2011-04-06 18:22:02 <jgarzik> it's not as easy as s/foo=bar/foo=htons(bar)'
1654 2011-04-06 18:22:05 <jgarzik> it's not as easy as s/foo=bar/foo=htons(bar)/
1655 2011-04-06 18:22:40 <jgarzik> topi`: pool share value diminishes as round continues, to prevent cheating
1656 2011-04-06 18:22:50 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1657 2011-04-06 18:22:55 <hozer> it should be relatively simple to fix, right?
1658 2011-04-06 18:22:58 <jaromil> do you mean bit-swaps? i mean binary arithmetics?
1659 2011-04-06 18:22:59 <jgarzik> topi`: shares near the found-block are worth more than shares at beginning of round
1660 2011-04-06 18:23:10 <jgarzik> jaromil: I mean what I said :)
1661 2011-04-06 18:23:14 <jgarzik> hozer: no
1662 2011-04-06 18:23:40 <jaromil> arcana sounds intriguing :)
1663 2011-04-06 18:24:17 <jgarzik> though I suppose all byte-swaps are bit-swaps fundamentally, if you wanna get all luke-jr on the details
1664 2011-04-06 18:25:43 <jaromil> rough estimation: how many ppl tried so far?
1665 2011-04-06 18:25:59 <xelister> "get all 'luke-jr' on the details"   lol <_<
1666 2011-04-06 18:26:07 <jgarzik> jaromil: tried to make it work on big endian?  none AFAIK
1667 2011-04-06 18:26:25 <jgarzik> jaromil: patches welcome...
1668 2011-04-06 18:26:30 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1669 2011-04-06 18:26:42 trentzb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1670 2011-04-06 18:26:42 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1671 2011-04-06 18:26:57 * jaromil queues the boom-chacka music
1672 2011-04-06 18:27:02 <hozer> I will look at it once I get wx downloaded
1673 2011-04-06 18:27:14 <jaromil> i've got some releases to roundup and still some code to write
1674 2011-04-06 18:27:26 <hozer> cause the $@#%!@% 7zip version has EOL's that break the build on unix
1675 2011-04-06 18:28:11 <jgarzik> hozer: do you really need a GUI?  if not, life is much easier just building bitcoind.
1676 2011-04-06 18:28:37 <jgarzik> hozer: I never bothered with wx
1677 2011-04-06 18:28:42 <hozer> well, I would like to have bitcoind running somewhere, but I want to see it too ;)
1678 2011-04-06 18:29:02 <genjix> sirius-m: see my forum pm?
1679 2011-04-06 18:29:11 <jgarzik> of course, now I -do- have to bother with it, to get mingw+bitcoin+autotools going...
1680 2011-04-06 18:29:44 <hozer> anyone got a nice frontend that shows something similiar to what the wx version does, but talks via rpc?
1681 2011-04-06 18:30:16 <hozer> jgarzik: are you cross-compiling to windoze?
1682 2011-04-06 18:30:27 <jgarzik> hozer: yes
1683 2011-04-06 18:30:30 <doublec> hozer: I think spesmilo aspires to be that
1684 2011-04-06 18:30:32 <doublec> hozer: https://github.com/genjix/spesmilo
1685 2011-04-06 18:30:34 * hozer curses sourceforge
1686 2011-04-06 18:30:57 <jgarzik> hozer: but be warned that no client besides mainline should be used in production, with "real" bitcoins, at the present time.
1687 2011-04-06 18:31:27 devon_hillard has joined
1688 2011-04-06 18:31:32 devon_hillard has quit (Changing host)
1689 2011-04-06 18:31:32 devon_hillard has joined
1690 2011-04-06 18:31:58 <hozer> I have segfaults to track down in mainline anyway when I leave it running for weeks
1691 2011-04-06 18:32:02 <hozer> (with wx)
1692 2011-04-06 18:33:15 taco_the_paco has joined
1693 2011-04-06 18:33:15 taco_the_paco has quit (Changing host)
1694 2011-04-06 18:33:15 taco_the_paco has joined
1695 2011-04-06 18:37:14 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I thought someone WAS using it on big endian
1696 2011-04-06 18:37:19 <luke-jr> already
1697 2011-04-06 18:37:33 <jaromil> BTW guys i was showing genjix this some days ago, we're almost ready with 1.0 http://tomb.dyne.org useful to keep the ~/.bitcoin safe maybe
1698 2011-04-06 18:37:36 alkor has joined
1699 2011-04-06 18:38:10 Prof_BiG_BanG has joined
1700 2011-04-06 18:38:42 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1701 2011-04-06 18:39:28 <jgarzik> bitcoin must build crypto into the app (a la GnuPG, and its storage of private keys).  Having unencrypted private keys lying around on the filesystem for anyone to copy makes life very easy for viruses and other attackers.
1702 2011-04-06 18:40:12 <jgarzik> TrueCrypt, encrypted backup solutions and the like don't solve the problem of a virus with user privs simply copying the file
1703 2011-04-06 18:40:33 * sipa wonders if you could use a ext[234]-like compatibily system in the wallet file
1704 2011-04-06 18:41:01 <hozer> hrrm. Honestly, encryption in the bitcoind itself doesn't help much
1705 2011-04-06 18:41:11 <jgarzik> sipa: ?   you can certainly link with libext2fs, to create a fully functional userspace filesystem.  I did this with 'dbfs' (FUSE + libext2fs)
1706 2011-04-06 18:41:16 <hozer> because the virus will just steal the users password
1707 2011-04-06 18:41:22 <jgarzik> hozer: from where?
1708 2011-04-06 18:41:42 <sipa> jgarzik: a header which mentions all "entensions" used, categorized under "if you don't know this, no problem", "if you don't know this, please open read-only", and "if you don't know this, forget it"
1709 2011-04-06 18:41:45 <gasteve> there is a forum thread on this...I think encypting the keys in the wallet db is the way to go (as was implemented)
1710 2011-04-06 18:41:51 <sipa> *extensions
1711 2011-04-06 18:41:51 <hozer> infect the machine, wait till users unlocks the bitcoind, steal coins
1712 2011-04-06 18:41:59 <jgarzik> hozer: be more specific
1713 2011-04-06 18:42:37 <jgarzik> hozer: because that appears impossible under the scheme just described
1714 2011-04-06 18:42:46 <gasteve> hozer, there is also a recognition that (at least on the popular operating systems and hardware), you cannot have a completely bullet proof solution
1715 2011-04-06 18:42:50 <jaromil> well i use tomb bcoz a like to have a skull on my desktop : looking forward to encryption in bitcoin's local storage, indeed safer
1716 2011-04-06 18:42:53 <jaromil> :)
1717 2011-04-06 18:43:12 <gjs278> nobody is going to write a virus for bitcoins
1718 2011-04-06 18:43:17 <gjs278> because nobody uses bitcoins
1719 2011-04-06 18:43:22 <jgarzik> gjs278: someone already has
1720 2011-04-06 18:43:23 <gjs278> there you go, saved you guys all of the trouble in the world
1721 2011-04-06 18:43:25 <hozer> gjs278: give it 6 months
1722 2011-04-06 18:43:29 <gjs278> nope
1723 2011-04-06 18:43:39 <jaromil> LOL whois this nobody badass guy
1724 2011-04-06 18:43:44 <gasteve> I keep my wallet on an encrypted file system and don't keep the main wallet running all the time (and don't keep that encrypted disk mounted all the time)
1725 2011-04-06 18:43:52 agricocb has joined
1726 2011-04-06 18:44:05 <gjs278> the second you mount it the virus can steal it
1727 2011-04-06 18:44:15 <gasteve> sure
1728 2011-04-06 18:44:20 <gjs278> so whats the point then?
1729 2011-04-06 18:44:27 <gasteve> another reason I don't run windows ;)
1730 2011-04-06 18:44:31 <WakiMiko> i wrote a virus and hacked the bitcoin network. wanna know how? send coins to 15kEJT4YWzDGTEdHoVd6qnRa5VjaPiTNPE
1731 2011-04-06 18:44:41 <jaromil> phear the nobody badass viruz !
1732 2011-04-06 18:44:50 <hozer> gjs278: exactly... I think any encryption leaves a false sense of security
1733 2011-04-06 18:44:56 <nathan7> gjs278: Someone could know your password! So what's the point of any form of password?
1734 2011-04-06 18:45:05 <gjs278> no
1735 2011-04-06 18:45:10 <nathan7> Let's do away with all security, it can all be somehow bypassed, what's the point of it?
1736 2011-04-06 18:45:14 <hozer> nathan7: the password is carried in your head
1737 2011-04-06 18:45:18 <gjs278> yeah
1738 2011-04-06 18:45:22 <gjs278> my password is not on the computer
1739 2011-04-06 18:45:37 <nathan7> So?
1740 2011-04-06 18:45:40 <nathan7> I could bypass a password.
1741 2011-04-06 18:45:42 <gasteve> hozer: but aliens could snatch me up and extract the keys from my head
1742 2011-04-06 18:45:44 <gjs278> lol
1743 2011-04-06 18:45:53 <nathan7> And if your password is never on your computer, how would you validate it?
1744 2011-04-06 18:46:15 <gjs278> password for what
1745 2011-04-06 18:46:16 <gjs278> it depends
1746 2011-04-06 18:46:25 topace has joined
1747 2011-04-06 18:46:26 <hozer> if there is encryption in bitcoind, I would like to see support for external key storage (such as Kerberos)
1748 2011-04-06 18:46:43 <phantomcircuit> WakiMiko, clever
1749 2011-04-06 18:46:49 <phantomcircuit> WakiMiko, and by clever i mean retarded
1750 2011-04-06 18:47:05 <phantomcircuit> hozer, lol @ massive overkill
1751 2011-04-06 18:47:08 <hozer> I would prefer to leave an unencrypted wallet file around for the aliens than to scan my brain
1752 2011-04-06 18:47:20 <gjs278> if someone is on my computer
1753 2011-04-06 18:47:24 <gjs278> that $25 I have in wallet.dat
1754 2011-04-06 18:47:26 <gjs278> is the least of my problems
1755 2011-04-06 18:47:36 <gasteve> how about we start with support for encryption?  hozer, you can code up the kerberos stuff
1756 2011-04-06 18:47:43 <phantomcircuit> hozer, if an attacker has gained access to your system and you dont notice, the game is over
1757 2011-04-06 18:48:10 <hozer> just give me an interface to request the master key to decrypt from another application ;)
1758 2011-04-06 18:48:49 <gjs278> you could be like steam and tie every wallet.dat to the processor
1759 2011-04-06 18:48:54 <gjs278> they have that account guard now
1760 2011-04-06 18:49:02 antivigilante_ has joined
1761 2011-04-06 18:49:25 <hozer> that would only really work on a processor that has it's own PK infrastructure
1762 2011-04-06 18:49:41 <hozer> like if there's a secret key specifically for the CPU
1763 2011-04-06 18:49:45 <gjs278> I think it works for any of the sandy bridges
1764 2011-04-06 18:49:50 <gasteve> what I'd really like to see is smart card based wallet storage and transaction creation
1765 2011-04-06 18:49:55 <hozer> yes
1766 2011-04-06 18:49:56 <nathan7> :>
1767 2011-04-06 18:49:58 <gjs278> gabe told everyone his password and nobody could hack it
1768 2011-04-06 18:50:32 <hozer> I have a libpam module that works with Cryptocard two-factor authentication tokens too
1769 2011-04-06 18:51:37 <hozer> I think what I want is a little embedded device (open-mesh router maybe?) and have it run bitcoin, and then a web or python frontend that communicates via RPC and requires a two-factor token for transactions
1770 2011-04-06 18:52:23 <gasteve> the key to that system is a) having the keys never leave the card in unencrypted form, b) have all functions requiring the bitcoin keys executed on the card, c) have access to any of these functions be protected by a passcode, and d) support an encrypted backup
1771 2011-04-06 18:52:32 <hozer> and then probably a service that has encrypted cloud backups of the wallet
1772 2011-04-06 18:52:41 <gasteve> ^^^ talking about the smartcard based wallet system
1773 2011-04-06 18:53:04 <sipa> what you want is a device which you can send an amount + target addres, and that generates you a valid transaction that sends the requested amount to that address
1774 2011-04-06 18:53:19 <gjs278> the only important thing I use the encryption for is putting the wallet somewhere else for backup purposes
1775 2011-04-06 18:53:20 <gasteve> sipa: yes
1776 2011-04-06 18:53:22 <sipa> possibly after asking you for confirmation
1777 2011-04-06 18:53:53 <sipa> it does not need any network access at all, actually
1778 2011-04-06 18:53:53 <hozer> yes... and I think the device will probably need to be capable of running a linux kernel
1779 2011-04-06 18:53:56 <gasteve> you basically want a dedicated little computer doing nothing but bitcoin wallet stuff
1780 2011-04-06 18:54:26 <phantomcircuit> gasteve, optimally over a serial port with a very simple very specific protocol, which if broken turns the computer off
1781 2011-04-06 18:54:33 <gjs278> http://www.gadgettastic.com/wp-content/2008/08/pt112x.jpg buy this thing
1782 2011-04-06 18:55:00 <gasteve> a usb device could work as well I suppose
1783 2011-04-06 18:55:01 <bd_> If all you're doing is wallet processing you can probably get away with a simple microcontroller even
1784 2011-04-06 18:55:16 <gjs278> that picotux thing can connect online and everything
1785 2011-04-06 18:55:20 <hozer> nice
1786 2011-04-06 18:55:23 <hozer> how much is a picotux?
1787 2011-04-06 18:55:23 <gasteve> some of those smartcards are very tamper resistant though
1788 2011-04-06 18:55:31 <gjs278> lol like $100
1789 2011-04-06 18:55:33 <BlueMatt> and block checking will take...hours
1790 2011-04-06 18:55:52 <gjs278> they make another small computer
1791 2011-04-06 18:55:52 <hozer> is the picotux POE?
1792 2011-04-06 18:55:52 <BlueMatt> not that that cant be solved with thin clients but still
1793 2011-04-06 18:55:56 <gjs278> it's like the size of a rubix cube
1794 2011-04-06 18:55:58 <gasteve> such a device would not so any block checking
1795 2011-04-06 18:56:05 <gasteve> s/so/do/
1796 2011-04-06 18:56:21 <hozer> dammit, their website is down
1797 2011-04-06 18:56:38 <gjs278> http://www.gizmag.com/stealth-lpc100-mini-computer/15939/
1798 2011-04-06 18:56:51 <sipa> you don't need a bitcoin smartcard to do blockchecking
1799 2011-04-06 18:57:22 <gasteve> didn't I just say that?
1800 2011-04-06 18:57:29 <BlueMatt> and I said that before either of you
1801 2011-04-06 18:57:44 <hozer> hrrm
1802 2011-04-06 18:58:26 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, what?
1803 2011-04-06 18:58:44 <BlueMatt> "thin clients"
1804 2011-04-06 18:58:49 <BlueMatt> ie doesnt have the block chain
1805 2011-04-06 18:58:49 <gjs278> SheevaPlug
1806 2011-04-06 18:58:56 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you wouldn't need to interact with the smartcard at all for checking the block for transactions
1807 2011-04-06 18:58:59 <phantomcircuit> oh
1808 2011-04-06 18:59:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh i'm not even talking about that
1809 2011-04-06 18:59:05 <gjs278> http://www.slashgear.com/marvell-sheevaplug-99-linux-pc-hidden-in-a-wall-wart-2435556/
1810 2011-04-06 18:59:08 <phantomcircuit> yeah downloading the initial block chain takes forever already
1811 2011-04-06 18:59:21 <gjs278> as low as $50 eventually
1812 2011-04-06 18:59:24 <sipa> i just mean something which holds a wallet, and can create transactions
1813 2011-04-06 18:59:27 <gasteve> I think all you need the keys for is to create transactions...is there anything else?
1814 2011-04-06 18:59:34 <gjs278> it has usb and gigabit ethernet
1815 2011-04-06 18:59:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh so a blind keystore but which doesnt divulge keys
1816 2011-04-06 18:59:45 npouillard has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1817 2011-04-06 18:59:47 <sipa> exactly
1818 2011-04-06 18:59:49 <phantomcircuit> gasteve, the problem is actually the number of private keys a smartcard can hold, it's usually not very many
1819 2011-04-06 19:00:07 <sipa> and using a second pin code or something you can update its wallet database from a trusted system
1820 2011-04-06 19:00:46 <sipa> one key suffices actually
1821 2011-04-06 19:00:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: you realize Id bet you can get it to diverge keys if you can just fill it with your own sign requests (Im assuming as Im not familiar with the exact crypto in btc, but its very common so Id assume)
1822 2011-04-06 19:01:19 <sipa> diverge?
1823 2011-04-06 19:01:22 <sipa> divulge?
1824 2011-04-06 19:01:24 <BlueMatt> divulge*
1825 2011-04-06 19:01:50 <sipa> i don't understand?
1826 2011-04-06 19:01:51 jackSmith has joined
1827 2011-04-06 19:02:00 <BlueMatt> known ciphertext attack
1828 2011-04-06 19:02:29 <sipa> well.. it's not an encryption system
1829 2011-04-06 19:02:29 * jgarzik spies a BlueMatt 
1830 2011-04-06 19:02:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: signing txes is
1831 2011-04-06 19:02:39 <gasteve> nah...point with a smartcard is that the keys never leave the device.
1832 2011-04-06 19:02:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: signing is not encrypting
1833 2011-04-06 19:02:48 <sipa> in RSA it is
1834 2011-04-06 19:02:49 <luke-jr> jgarzik: can you at least make some versioned release of authproxy? :P
1835 2011-04-06 19:02:54 <sipa> in DSA it isn't
1836 2011-04-06 19:03:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: same attack is still possible
1837 2011-04-06 19:03:06 <sipa> maybe
1838 2011-04-06 19:03:16 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: so your research indicated that -daemon never ever worked on Windows bitcoind.exe?
1839 2011-04-06 19:03:24 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: that is correct
1840 2011-04-06 19:03:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: well of course it depends on the padding used/etc, but Id assume with enough work it is possible
1841 2011-04-06 19:03:43 <jgarzik> luke-jr: sure, give me a sec
1842 2011-04-06 19:04:11 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, known ciphertext is not an attack against ECC
1843 2011-04-06 19:04:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: in fact no bitcoin ever forked on win32, there is a flag in the pe binary of bitcoin.exe that makes it return on the cmd.exe prompt without any work on the side of the program
1844 2011-04-06 19:05:04 <gjs278> what's the difference between -server and -daemon for bitcoind
1845 2011-04-06 19:05:15 <sipa> -server means listen for RPC calls
1846 2011-04-06 19:05:21 <sipa> which is implicit for bitcoind
1847 2011-04-06 19:05:49 <gjs278> isn't bitcoind also a daemon though?
1848 2011-04-06 19:06:48 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1849 2011-04-06 19:06:52 skeledrew has joined
1850 2011-04-06 19:07:10 semyazza has joined
1851 2011-04-06 19:07:31 semyazza has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1852 2011-04-06 19:07:45 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, basically the difference between bitcoin and bitcoind is that bitcoind cannto display the gui even if you ask it nicely
1853 2011-04-06 19:07:49 <jgarzik> luke-jr: git://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc.git
1854 2011-04-06 19:08:19 <gjs278> well my question is, what does the flag -daemon do on bitcoind
1855 2011-04-06 19:08:23 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: since when?
1856 2011-04-06 19:08:34 <jgarzik> gjs278: nothing that bitcoind doesn't already do [as of the latest patches]
1857 2011-04-06 19:08:46 <luke-jr> jgarzik: x.x I meant more or less copy it somewhere with a version number
1858 2011-04-06 19:08:47 <jgarzik> gjs278: bitcoin is almost a strict superset of bitcoind
1859 2011-04-06 19:08:47 <gjs278> I figured it was a little redudant
1860 2011-04-06 19:09:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr: do python modules have any specific versioning convention I should follow?  Talking about inside the code itself, not the dist tarball filename.
1861 2011-04-06 19:09:37 <luke-jr> not that I know of
1862 2011-04-06 19:09:38 <jgarzik> perl modules set $VERSION=0.1 or somesuch
1863 2011-04-06 19:09:40 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, since it's not linked against wxwidgets?
1864 2011-04-06 19:09:48 Tril has left ()
1865 2011-04-06 19:09:49 <hozer> jgarzik: what's this code do now?
1866 2011-04-06 19:09:55 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: in reference to ecc and crypto attacks
1867 2011-04-06 19:10:06 <jgarzik> hozer: AuthServiceProxy, or something else?
1868 2011-04-06 19:10:22 <hozer> the git repo.. that's AuthServiceProxy?
1869 2011-04-06 19:10:30 genjix has quit (Quit: leaving)
1870 2011-04-06 19:11:08 <WakiMiko> so all bitcoin addresses start with "1", why not shorten them by 1 char?
1871 2011-04-06 19:11:20 <gjs278> what if we run out!!!!!
1872 2011-04-06 19:11:20 <jgarzik> hozer: yes
1873 2011-04-06 19:11:30 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: testnet start with "m"
1874 2011-04-06 19:11:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: something like this?  http://yyz.us/bitcoin/python-bitcoinrpc-0.1-gb0fb5eea.tar.gz
1875 2011-04-06 19:11:42 <WakiMiko> luke-jr: ah makes sense
1876 2011-04-06 19:11:46 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sure
1877 2011-04-06 19:11:47 <luke-jr> thanks
1878 2011-04-06 19:11:48 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: afaict, there is no evidence for that on google.  Though im probably wrong as I dont spend that much time watching crypto
1879 2011-04-06 19:11:53 <jgarzik> WakiMiko: bitcoin addresses have check digits and other metadata
1880 2011-04-06 19:12:08 <luke-jr> jgarzik: also, just to confirm: you're not interested in changing the names so it can be a drop-in replacement for jsonrpc?
1881 2011-04-06 19:12:47 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I am interested in changing the name...  but its Decimal and Authorization header behavior implies it is not a drop-in replacement, behavior-wise.
1882 2011-04-06 19:13:11 <jgarzik> luke-jr: feel free to work up a patch that you like
1883 2011-04-06 19:13:14 <jgarzik> patches welcome
1884 2011-04-06 19:13:16 <luke-jr> jgarzik: Decimal should behave the same as floats more or less… not sure on the implications of Authorization changes
1885 2011-04-06 19:13:29 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i guess it's possible but i haven't seen any evidence that a chosen ciphertext attack has been round successful against ecdsa
1886 2011-04-06 19:13:50 <jgarzik> luke-jr: Authorization is usually ignored, for web server pages that don't care, IIRC
1887 2011-04-06 19:14:01 <sipa> a chosen ciphertext attack... not sure what that is for signing?
1888 2011-04-06 19:14:11 npouillard has joined
1889 2011-04-06 19:14:24 <sipa> that would mean feeding it chosen data and ask whether that is a valid signature?
1890 2011-04-06 19:14:45 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: is ecdsa sufficiently different from dsa in terms of attacks like that? AFAIK its very similar mathematically, just along an ec which allows for smaller key sizes
1891 2011-04-06 19:15:28 npouillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1892 2011-04-06 19:15:53 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's pretty similar
1893 2011-04-06 19:16:03 npouillard has joined
1894 2011-04-06 19:16:07 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, id actually be more comfortable with RSA-OLEM
1895 2011-04-06 19:16:13 <phantomcircuit> i probably have that acroonym wrong
1896 2011-04-06 19:16:30 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1897 2011-04-06 19:16:31 <phantomcircuit> OAEP
1898 2011-04-06 19:16:43 <phantomcircuit> which basically just means using sane padding
1899 2011-04-06 19:16:45 <BlueMatt> I agree
1900 2011-04-06 19:16:59 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1901 2011-04-06 19:17:00 <BlueMatt> though I dont know all that much against dsa attacks
1902 2011-04-06 19:17:59 <gjs278> my computer is so powerful I just hash my wallet.dat into md5 and then rebuild the entire thing with 100k length rainbow tables
1903 2011-04-06 19:18:25 <jgarzik> luke-jr: patches to jgarzik@exmulti.com, if you don't want to surf to github.com :)
1904 2011-04-06 19:18:27 <BlueMatt> lol have fun when an attacker gets physical access to your computer
1905 2011-04-06 19:18:34 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I was gonna pastebin :P
1906 2011-04-06 19:18:35 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, now THAT is a backup strategy
1907 2011-04-06 19:18:36 <jgarzik> luke-jr: or offsite pull requests...
1908 2011-04-06 19:19:13 <BlueMatt> gjs278: though that would be an ideal encryption strategy if you store your wallet on a supercomputer ;)
1909 2011-04-06 19:19:26 MartianW has joined
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1911 2011-04-06 19:19:55 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I'd be more comfortable with RSASSA-PSS
1912 2011-04-06 19:20:51 <gjs278> why does the wallet.dat grow in size
1913 2011-04-06 19:21:14 <gjs278> every transaction does it just tack on 8k or something?
1914 2011-04-06 19:21:18 <phantomcircuit> well there's really no reason not to add other signing algorithms
1915 2011-04-06 19:21:38 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, keeps your blocks and generates new keys
1916 2011-04-06 19:21:39 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: overcomplication?
1917 2011-04-06 19:21:58 remanifest has joined
1918 2011-04-06 19:22:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: so is it called python-bitcoinrpc or authproxy? XD
1919 2011-04-06 19:22:23 <gjs278> I just do aes(aes(aes(aes(aes(wallet.dat))))) nobody will figure it out
1920 2011-04-06 19:22:32 <luke-jr> jgarzik: how's this look? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/366711/
1921 2011-04-06 19:22:32 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, a couple more signing algorithms shouldn't add very much complexity
1922 2011-04-06 19:22:42 <jgarzik> luke-jr: "python-jsonrpc" calls itself ServiceProxy in file proxy.py
1923 2011-04-06 19:22:50 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's basically just 1 opcode per signing algorithm
1924 2011-04-06 19:22:58 <jgarzik> luke-jr: "python-bitcoinrpc" calls itself AuthServiceProxy in file authproxy.py
1925 2011-04-06 19:23:28 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: not a bad idea I suppose
1926 2011-04-06 19:23:35 <jgarzik> luke-jr: you're welcome to submit a pull request that includes file names.  git can support that.
1927 2011-04-06 19:23:44 <jgarzik> er, file name changes
1928 2011-04-06 19:24:01 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: bring back most of the scripting, and add that in a future version I suppose
1929 2011-04-06 19:24:10 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sure, but this way seems cleaner-- it lets people omit the compatibility layer if they don't want it
1930 2011-04-06 19:24:21 <luke-jr> (eg, if they actually need that cgi module)
1931 2011-04-06 19:25:39 <BlueMatt> was there ever a conclusion on how the next version will be released? which archives, blockchain included or downloadable officially somewhere?, etc
1932 2011-04-06 19:25:57 <jgarzik> luke-jr: looks fine to me.  does it work?  ;-)
1933 2011-04-06 19:26:11 <luke-jr> jgarzik: seems to, tested with Python CLI :P
1934 2011-04-06 19:26:11 <jgarzik> luke-jr:  we should probably move authproxy.py into a sub-directory too, no?
1935 2011-04-06 19:26:21 <luke-jr> jgarzik: no reason to, it's a single module
1936 2011-04-06 19:26:38 <luke-jr> although, 'jsonrpc.proxy' describes itself better than 'authproxy'
1937 2011-04-06 19:26:48 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yep
1938 2011-04-06 19:26:57 Mango-chan has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1939 2011-04-06 19:27:10 <jgarzik> luke-jr: could put it all into jsonrpc sub-dir
1940 2011-04-06 19:27:27 <luke-jr> jgarzik: up to you, I can adapt
1941 2011-04-06 19:28:53 <jgarzik> luke-jr: updated thusly: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/python-bitcoinrpc-0.2-g8ce7bce1.tar.gz
1942 2011-04-06 19:28:57 <jgarzik> & git
1943 2011-04-06 19:28:57 <gribble> Error: "git" is not a valid command.
1944 2011-04-06 19:29:02 * jgarzik kicks gribble 
1945 2011-04-06 19:29:09 <jgarzik> & rm -rf / &
1946 2011-04-06 19:29:10 <gribble> Error: "rm" is not a valid command.
1947 2011-04-06 19:30:37 <gjs278> is it ;;bcgen
1948 2011-04-06 19:30:42 <gjs278> what's the command for it
1949 2011-04-06 19:30:48 <gjs278> maybe you can make him say it to himself
1950 2011-04-06 19:31:00 <gjs278> like & ;;bcgen
1951 2011-04-06 19:31:10 <sipa> ;;bc,gen ?
1952 2011-04-06 19:31:12 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1953 2011-04-06 19:31:16 <gjs278> and then he'll get stuck in a loop forever
1954 2011-04-06 19:31:22 <gjs278> responding to himself
1955 2011-04-06 19:31:35 <finnomenon> divide by 0?
1956 2011-04-06 19:31:35 <gjs278> & ;;bc,gen
1957 2011-04-06 19:31:36 <gribble> Error: ";;bc,gen" is not a valid command.
1958 2011-04-06 19:31:40 <gjs278> damnit
1959 2011-04-06 19:31:49 <gjs278> & &
1960 2011-04-06 19:31:50 <gribble> Error: "&" is not a valid command.
1961 2011-04-06 19:31:51 <BlueMatt> & ,,bc,gen
1962 2011-04-06 19:31:52 <gribble> Error: ",,bc,gen" is not a valid command.
1963 2011-04-06 19:31:59 <BlueMatt> I guess hes not self-aware
1964 2011-04-06 19:32:05 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gribble
1965 2011-04-06 19:32:06 <gribble> I have not seen gribble.
1966 2011-04-06 19:32:09 <gjs278> lies
1967 2011-04-06 19:32:32 <gjs278> ;;seen ,,bc,gen
1968 2011-04-06 19:32:32 <gribble> I have not seen ,,bc,gen.
1969 2011-04-06 19:32:47 <gjs278> ;;seen ;;seen
1970 2011-04-06 19:32:47 <gribble> I have not seen ;;seen.
1971 2011-04-06 19:33:07 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: chuckle
1972 2011-04-06 19:33:14 <jgarzik> ;;seen antiseen
1973 2011-04-06 19:33:14 <gribble> I have not seen antiseen.
1974 2011-04-06 19:33:45 <gjs278> ;;seen a pair of breasts in my entire life
1975 2011-04-06 19:33:46 <gribble> (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself. <nick> may contain * as a wildcard.
1976 2011-04-06 19:33:50 <gjs278> dahhhh
1977 2011-04-06 19:34:01 <BlueMatt> ;;seen "a pair of breasts in my life"
1978 2011-04-06 19:34:02 <gribble> I have not seen a pair of breasts in my life.
1979 2011-04-06 19:34:06 <gjs278> lol
1980 2011-04-06 19:34:35 nefario has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
1981 2011-04-06 19:34:45 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
1982 2011-04-06 19:34:50 <BlueMatt> rule one of the internet: it always gets back to breasts eventually
1983 2011-04-06 19:35:43 <gjs278> ;;seen "a reason to continue living. Goodbye"
1984 2011-04-06 19:35:43 <gribble> I have not seen a reason to continue living. Goodbye.
1985 2011-04-06 19:35:56 <gjs278> gribble no!!!!!! don't do it!
1986 2011-04-06 19:36:23 tabsa_ has joined
1987 2011-04-06 19:36:39 Mango-chan has joined
1988 2011-04-06 19:38:20 <midnightmagic> well, i guess the ventilation fans for the miners are functioning. i'm hitting my card temp targets now with fan speeds as low as 35% :) ha ha..
1989 2011-04-06 19:38:33 * midnightmagic high fives himself.
1990 2011-04-06 19:38:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: erm, you didn't merge that patch :P
1991 2011-04-06 19:38:47 <luke-jr> jgarzik: care to git am it? ;)
1992 2011-04-06 19:38:54 cypherdoc has joined
1993 2011-04-06 19:39:03 <luke-jr> although let me remake it I guess
1994 2011-04-06 19:39:06 <luke-jr> gotta adapt to changed path
1995 2011-04-06 19:39:27 gavinandresen has joined
1996 2011-04-06 19:39:58 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes, you need to regenerate your stuff on top of 0.2
1997 2011-04-06 19:44:05 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1998 2011-04-06 19:45:25 chmod755 has joined
1999 2011-04-06 19:45:27 chmod755 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2000 2011-04-06 19:47:16 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2001 2011-04-06 19:49:28 <mizerydearia> The new site for http://bitcoin.org looks wrong in Firefox 3.6.15
2002 2011-04-06 19:50:25 <mizerydearia> http://i.imgur.com/yaP2N.png
2003 2011-04-06 19:50:49 <BlueMatt> download link should link to download, not sourceforge main page
2004 2011-04-06 19:51:17 <mizerydearia> http://i.imgur.com/zGnnL.png
2005 2011-04-06 19:53:35 <jgarzik> What if bitcoins were used in high-frequency trading?
2006 2011-04-06 19:53:36 <jgarzik> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5501.0
2007 2011-04-06 19:53:55 <jgarzik> --> some Wall Street attention, and potentially a good discussion of scaling bitcoin technology
2008 2011-04-06 19:54:24 * jgarzik tries to imagine bitcoin at 1,000,000 transactions per block
2009 2011-04-06 19:54:35 <mizerydearia> I Also, maybe link the IRC channels to each channel.
2010 2011-04-06 19:54:35 * BlueMatt shoots himself
2011 2011-04-06 19:54:49 devrandom has joined
2012 2011-04-06 19:54:51 <luke-jr> jgarzik: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/366740/
2013 2011-04-06 19:56:19 Joozero has joined
2014 2011-04-06 19:56:39 <jgarzik> luke-jr: applied, pushed, and tarball'd: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/python-bitcoinrpc-0.3-g61334635.tar.gz
2015 2011-04-06 19:57:52 <Joozero> is there the admin of the wiki?
2016 2011-04-06 19:58:09 kelvie_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017 2011-04-06 19:59:44 kelvie_ has joined
2018 2011-04-06 19:59:50 <jgarzik> bitcoin.org/smf:  please don't become yet another 4chan image board
2019 2011-04-06 20:00:11 <BlueMatt> can we get a max image size on bitcoin.org/smf
2020 2011-04-06 20:00:27 <jgarzik> would be nice.  sirius-m?
2021 2011-04-06 20:00:41 <jgarzik> I would love to ban animated images, but I suspect I'm just an old fart there.
2022 2011-04-06 20:01:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I would have to agree with pt1, not pt2
2023 2011-04-06 20:02:02 <BlueMatt> actually its only the old farts who are used to the animated images of 10 years ago
2024 2011-04-06 20:02:25 * jgarzik actually puts his hand, or a slip of paper, over the monitor to cover annoying animated ads / images.
2025 2011-04-06 20:02:48 <sipa> ads? you mean those still exist? :)
2026 2011-04-06 20:02:51 * BlueMatt doesnt quite go that far, but does use adblock ;)
2027 2011-04-06 20:02:58 llama has joined
2028 2011-04-06 20:03:32 <llama> hey, you on?
2029 2011-04-06 20:04:26 <xelister> jgarzik: its like turning monitor upside down in prince of persia? :P
2030 2011-04-06 20:04:39 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2031 2011-04-06 20:04:49 phantomcircuit has joined
2032 2011-04-06 20:07:06 <BlueMatt> "Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted." active thread much
2033 2011-04-06 20:08:30 genjix has joined
2034 2011-04-06 20:08:31 genjix has quit (Changing host)
2035 2011-04-06 20:08:31 genjix has joined
2036 2011-04-06 20:08:49 <Blitzboom> hehe
2037 2011-04-06 20:09:55 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2038 2011-04-06 20:10:28 <Blitzboom> good to agree with you for once, BlueMatt
2039 2011-04-06 20:10:34 <Blitzboom> :P
2040 2011-04-06 20:10:35 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: very true
2041 2011-04-06 20:11:04 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: better to have the discussion anyway
2042 2011-04-06 20:12:20 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r801051617f49 gentoo/dev-python/bitcoinrpc/ (4 files): dev-python/bitcoinrpc: Initial import (AuthServiceProxy) http://tinyurl.com/3e7bpkz
2043 2011-04-06 20:12:20 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r792e17cdb802 gentoo/ (4 files in 2 dirs): virtual/python-serviceproxy: Initial import http://tinyurl.com/44tw99b
2044 2011-04-06 20:12:20 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf8525beef622 gentoo/dev-python/bitcoinrpc/ (Manifest bitcoinrpc-0.2.ebuild): dev-python/bitcoinrpc: Remove 0.2 (source already gone!) http://tinyurl.com/4xkgphg
2045 2011-04-06 20:12:59 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2046 2011-04-06 20:15:16 skeledrew has joined
2047 2011-04-06 20:17:53 <finnomenon> ;;bc,gen 320000
2048 2011-04-06 20:17:55 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 320000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 3.90863310587 BTC per day and 0.162859712745 BTC per hour.
2049 2011-04-06 20:18:17 xelister_ has joined
2050 2011-04-06 20:19:35 <minus> ;;bc,gen 323000000
2051 2011-04-06 20:19:37 BCBot has joined
2052 2011-04-06 20:19:37 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 323000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 3945.27654124 BTC per day and 164.386522552 BTC per hour.
2053 2011-04-06 20:19:39 xelister_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2054 2011-04-06 20:19:55 <minus> hm nvm that
2055 2011-04-06 20:20:01 Diablo-D3 has joined
2056 2011-04-06 20:20:19 tabsa_ is now known as tabsa
2057 2011-04-06 20:21:21 xelister has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2058 2011-04-06 20:21:39 Joozero has quit ()
2059 2011-04-06 20:22:06 <CIA-96> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * re39a44934d72 gentoo/dev-python/bitcoinrpc/ (Manifest bitcoinrpc-0.3.ebuild bitcoinrpc-9999.ebuild): dev-python/bitcoinrpc: set HOMEPAGE http://tinyurl.com/6dbluf2
2060 2011-04-06 20:38:09 jackSmith has joined
2061 2011-04-06 20:41:18 antivigilante_ is now known as antivigilante
2062 2011-04-06 20:51:23 <hozer> hrrrm.. bitcoin & high frequency trading...
2063 2011-04-06 20:51:42 jroot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2064 2011-04-06 20:51:52 <hozer> I suppose this means I'll have to start working out how to have an InfiniBand transport module for transactions
2065 2011-04-06 20:52:11 slush1 has joined
2066 2011-04-06 20:52:21 <nanotube> hozer: well, it is unlikely that the actual block chain will be used for hft. because confirmations aren't fast enough, and there isn't enough space in the blocks.
2067 2011-04-06 20:52:36 <nanotube> it can be done on exchange-internal accounting though. basically, like mtgox currently works.
2068 2011-04-06 20:52:51 <nanotube> mtgox trades don't show up in the block chain, it's all done within the mtgox wallet.
2069 2011-04-06 20:53:10 <nanotube> in other words... hft with bitcoin is no different than hft with anything else.
2070 2011-04-06 20:53:13 <hozer> yeah... I really want to know which firm this guy works for
2071 2011-04-06 20:53:22 slush has quit (Disconnected by services)
2072 2011-04-06 20:53:48 slush has joined
2073 2011-04-06 20:54:20 <hozer> I interviewed in New York at one of the places that might be doing this and mentioned bitcoin a few times
2074 2011-04-06 20:54:28 <Blitzboom> if he’s for real, you should buy bitcoins now
2075 2011-04-06 20:54:39 <krytzz> hozer: and reactions?
2076 2011-04-06 20:54:43 slush1 has quit (Client Quit)
2077 2011-04-06 20:54:48 <krytzz> hozer: ah you think its one of the ny brokers? :p
2078 2011-04-06 20:54:55 remanifest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2079 2011-04-06 20:55:06 slush1 has joined
2080 2011-04-06 20:55:17 slush1 has quit (Changing host)
2081 2011-04-06 20:55:17 slush1 has joined
2082 2011-04-06 20:55:19 <hozer> no idea... the place I interviewed didn't say much ... apparently I didn't fit their culture
2083 2011-04-06 20:55:48 <krytzz> yeah
2084 2011-04-06 20:56:18 <hozer> I get the impression of a bit of a cult mentality in traders
2085 2011-04-06 20:56:22 joepie91 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2086 2011-04-06 20:57:05 joepie91 has joined
2087 2011-04-06 20:57:20 <krytzz> yeah, never met one by myself but i think they are far away from this world
2088 2011-04-06 20:57:34 <lfm> hozer: they maybe viewed you as competition, you were gonna steal their secrets
2089 2011-04-06 20:57:37 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2090 2011-04-06 20:57:55 <hozer> although it's nicer I'm not actually working for one of these guys, because now I'll just eat their lunch with open source and being on the commodities production side ;)
2091 2011-04-06 20:58:36 <hozer> lfm: maybe, but it would have been far better to pay me if they were worried about that.. now I'm just motivated to re-invent the entire trading value-chain as open source ;)
2092 2011-04-06 20:58:46 <hozer> and hand it to commodities producers (like farmers)
2093 2011-04-06 20:59:46 <hozer> There is a lot of market inefficiency in the clustering & network infrastructure they use
2094 2011-04-06 21:01:00 <lfm> also inefficiency in the local currency excahnges they use
2095 2011-04-06 21:01:06 <hozer> yes
2096 2011-04-06 21:02:26 <hozer> and commodities... 'the industry' guys are going to go to chicago, the board of trade, etc
2097 2011-04-06 21:02:33 cypherdoc has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
2098 2011-04-06 21:02:52 <hozer> when really, cut out all the middlemen and have a fully distributed exchange based on BTC
2099 2011-04-06 21:03:44 <hozer> hrrm.. I can make a buyer in china a much better overall deal for corn than he'll get on the board of trade
2100 2011-04-06 21:04:10 <nanotube> hozer: good luck! :) sounds like a worthy idea.
2101 2011-04-06 21:04:24 <nanotube> main problem is overcoming the chicken and egg problem (i.e., getting volume)
2102 2011-04-06 21:04:36 <hozer> yep
2103 2011-04-06 21:05:16 <hozer> although 70,000 bushels of corn is nothing to sneeze at ;)
2104 2011-04-06 21:05:44 zenfoo has joined
2105 2011-04-06 21:06:05 <krytzz> we need a shipping system with automated tunnels
2106 2011-04-06 21:06:36 <hozer> hah
2107 2011-04-06 21:07:04 <krytzz> imagine having a opening in your house, there the packages arrive
2108 2011-04-06 21:07:10 <krytzz> order pizza with btc
2109 2011-04-06 21:07:15 <krytzz> and bam
2110 2011-04-06 21:07:17 <JFK911> pneumatic tubes return
2111 2011-04-06 21:07:21 <JFK911> some futuristic crap from the 50's
2112 2011-04-06 21:07:22 <krytzz> right
2113 2011-04-06 21:07:27 <krytzz> i would love it :p
2114 2011-04-06 21:07:28 <hozer> hrrm
2115 2011-04-06 21:07:39 <JFK911> there have actually been some rather complex pneumatic tube systems
2116 2011-04-06 21:07:44 <krytzz> no more traffic jams and stuff
2117 2011-04-06 21:07:45 <JFK911> didn't they have one in the city of london?
2118 2011-04-06 21:07:54 <krytzz> yeah and in berlin
2119 2011-04-06 21:07:54 <lfm> nyc too
2120 2011-04-06 21:07:58 <krytzz> you still can see it today
2121 2011-04-06 21:08:19 <krytzz> but we need bigger tubes, otherwise pizza wont fit
2122 2011-04-06 21:08:29 <hozer> I like taxi2000.com
2123 2011-04-06 21:08:45 <krytzz> ah that one
2124 2011-04-06 21:08:54 <krytzz> no idea
2125 2011-04-06 21:09:07 <hozer> well, if there's enough density, you could have a web-based bike delivery dispatch somethingorother
2126 2011-04-06 21:09:17 <hozer> like uship.com, except for pizza/whatever delivery
2127 2011-04-06 21:11:10 <JFK911> oh uship is cool
2128 2011-04-06 21:11:20 <JFK911> posted an RFP for a paint can full of w33d
2129 2011-04-06 21:11:34 <JFK911> RFQ whatever
2130 2011-04-06 21:11:47 <krytzz> and did you get it?
2131 2011-04-06 21:12:41 <JFK911> not yet
2132 2011-04-06 21:12:42 <JFK911> waiting
2133 2011-04-06 21:12:53 <jed> a gallon paint can?
2134 2011-04-06 21:13:03 <JFK911> do they have any larger ones?
2135 2011-04-06 21:13:03 <jed> damn
2136 2011-04-06 21:13:12 <jed> yeah, there's (5?) gallon buckets
2137 2011-04-06 21:13:15 <JFK911> if so that will save shipping costs
2138 2011-04-06 21:13:40 <JFK911> you guys are a+ helpful <3
2139 2011-04-06 21:20:59 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
2140 2011-04-06 21:22:59 skeledrew has joined
2141 2011-04-06 21:26:33 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2142 2011-04-06 21:27:07 Blitzboom has joined
2143 2011-04-06 21:34:06 <jgarzik> I finally settled on private pool server pricing: https://xf2.org/services/
2144 2011-04-06 21:34:25 <jgarzik> 2.75 BTC/month, for 1.2m RPC queries in a 30-day period.  That approximates 1 Ghash/sec.
2145 2011-04-06 21:35:11 <nanotube> jgarzik: cool. suggestion: allow people to set custom share difficulty.
2146 2011-04-06 21:35:38 <sipa> what is the advantage of a private pool over running a bitcoind yourself?
2147 2011-04-06 21:35:41 <gjs278> what is this exactly
2148 2011-04-06 21:35:48 <jgarzik> nanotube: they can set diff-1 or full-diff
2149 2011-04-06 21:35:59 <jgarzik> nanotube: you mean custom diff, over and above that?
2150 2011-04-06 21:36:06 <nanotube> jgarzik: right i saw that. yes i mean anything in between.
2151 2011-04-06 21:36:18 <sipa> or even below, for very slow miners :)
2152 2011-04-06 21:36:18 <jgarzik> sipa: same as any managed app hosting
2153 2011-04-06 21:36:36 <nanotube> mining on the abacus... :)
2154 2011-04-06 21:36:46 <jgarzik> nanotube: will add the idea to the list.  already been looking into raising diff above diff-1, to increase GPU mining efficiency.
2155 2011-04-06 21:36:55 <jgarzik> nanotube: diff-1 is too easy for GPU miners
2156 2011-04-06 21:37:00 <nanotube> jgarzik: exactly
2157 2011-04-06 21:37:20 <doublec> jgarzik: is that 1.2m authorized RPC queries? Or could someone DOS your private pool by running lots of RPC queries against it?
2158 2011-04-06 21:37:21 <nanotube> that's why i was thinking that a bunch of gpu miners may choose something less frequently-occurring.
2159 2011-04-06 21:37:53 <sipa> as long as you have a match every few minutes, you're good actually
2160 2011-04-06 21:38:22 <gjs278> so we pay you 2 bitcoins a month and we get to mine on this pool
2161 2011-04-06 21:38:33 <doublec> or a ufasoft type miner that sends an unauthenticated request followed by an authenticated request - does that unauthenticated request count towards the 1.2 m total?
2162 2011-04-06 21:38:41 <jgarzik> doublec: correct, requests that (a) passed authentication and (b) had results successfully obtained from upstream & prox servers
2163 2011-04-06 21:38:48 <doublec> ok, nice
2164 2011-04-06 21:38:54 <EvanR-work> an abacus actually cant mine, it has no universal turing computing hardware ;)
2165 2011-04-06 21:38:59 <jgarzik> doublec: so if my upstream fails, you don't get charged
2166 2011-04-06 21:39:00 <EvanR-work> its just a calculator
2167 2011-04-06 21:39:00 <nanotube> sipa: yes, but with a 5970, avg time for diff1 is 7 seconds.
2168 2011-04-06 21:39:02 <gjs278> or we pay you to host the pool for us
2169 2011-04-06 21:39:06 <jgarzik> doublec: even if your miner client is stupid :)
2170 2011-04-06 21:39:17 <sipa> EvanR-work: the human behind is typically turing complete :)
2171 2011-04-06 21:39:18 <doublec> hehe
2172 2011-04-06 21:39:23 <jgarzik> gjs278: yep
2173 2011-04-06 21:39:27 <gjs278> ok
2174 2011-04-06 21:39:29 <gjs278> got it
2175 2011-04-06 21:39:32 <EvanR-work> sipa: no need for the abacus then
2176 2011-04-06 21:39:33 <jgarzik> gjs278: you get your own private pool to play in
2177 2011-04-06 21:39:48 <jgarzik> gjs278: you are the master of your own destiny^H^H^Hpool
2178 2011-04-06 21:39:52 <jgarzik> gjs278: compete with slush, if you like
2179 2011-04-06 21:39:58 <gjs278> yeah
2180 2011-04-06 21:40:06 <gjs278> plus the domain name is shorter
2181 2011-04-06 21:40:11 <jgarzik> heh
2182 2011-04-06 21:40:34 <gjs278> well this public pool, are there going to be external stats on it
2183 2011-04-06 21:40:46 <gjs278> or will that be a you'll find out when you join sort of thing
2184 2011-04-06 21:40:48 <jgarzik> gjs278: yes, but private pools are the priority right now
2185 2011-04-06 21:40:52 <gjs278> gotcha
2186 2011-04-06 21:41:17 <gjs278> I think they take 2btc in fees from me for the month anyways
2187 2011-04-06 21:41:23 <gjs278> so it's like the same price
2188 2011-04-06 21:41:58 <jgarzik> gjs278: although that code is not in place yet, I do plan to give people full TX fees for won blocks, in the public pool
2189 2011-04-06 21:42:10 <jgarzik> gjs278: private pool, of course, always receives whatever TX fees appear
2190 2011-04-06 21:42:29 <jgarzik> no percentage or anything charged on top of that.
2191 2011-04-06 21:44:24 <krytzz> does the bitcoin software have a bugtracker?
2192 2011-04-06 21:44:46 <gjs278> this channel
2193 2011-04-06 21:44:57 <krytzz> k ^^
2194 2011-04-06 21:44:59 <tcatm> krytzz: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
2195 2011-04-06 21:45:05 <krytzz> ah the github one
2196 2011-04-06 21:46:29 <krytzz> i got a question, perhaps its a misunderstanding: if i have 0 connections to the network and generate a new address in the client it will be unusable till i am connected to the network right
2197 2011-04-06 21:47:26 endian7000 has joined
2198 2011-04-06 21:47:28 <tcatm> nope. the address is valid and useable
2199 2011-04-06 21:47:58 Xunie has joined
2200 2011-04-06 21:48:31 <krytzz> hm ill read again
2201 2011-04-06 21:48:34 <doublec> you just won't be able to receie anything until conected
2202 2011-04-06 21:48:41 <EvanR-work> yes you will
2203 2011-04-06 21:48:47 <EvanR-work> you just cant spend it
2204 2011-04-06 21:48:50 <lfm> krytzz: no, you could give that address to someone to pay you with it without you ever connecting
2205 2011-04-06 21:48:52 <krytzz> yeah that was my point
2206 2011-04-06 21:49:00 <krytzz> ah right
2207 2011-04-06 21:49:13 <krytzz> now i understand, read the wiki again
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2210 2011-04-06 21:50:46 sethsethseth____ has joined
2211 2011-04-06 21:50:47 <krytzz> cool
2212 2011-04-06 21:51:13 <krytzz> how many people fully understand bitcoin with the cryptostuff+network? :p
2213 2011-04-06 21:51:20 <jgarzik> zero
2214 2011-04-06 21:51:31 * jgarzik runs
2215 2011-04-06 21:51:36 <krytzz> joking? hehe
2216 2011-04-06 21:52:04 <krytzz> i have no further questions
2217 2011-04-06 21:52:15 <krytzz> just would be interested in an estimation of yours
2218 2011-04-06 21:53:41 <gjs278> as it turns out, bitcoin is nothing but a large attempt to decrypt nuclear launch codes. our gpus are ending the world
2219 2011-04-06 21:54:02 <krytzz> right :)
2220 2011-04-06 21:54:28 <krytzz> but hey they were 00000000 so
2221 2011-04-06 21:54:52 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2222 2011-04-06 21:55:24 <lfm> si now all bitcoin is is the pretense of a currency?
2223 2011-04-06 21:55:28 echelon has joined
2224 2011-04-06 21:55:39 <EvanR-work> krytzz: as a lower bound, check the commit history to the codebas
2225 2011-04-06 21:55:46 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
2226 2011-04-06 21:55:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117073 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1870 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 13 hours, 41 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 79336.87558880
2227 2011-04-06 21:56:02 <midnightmagic> interesting.
2228 2011-04-06 21:56:08 <EvanR-work> and union it with the contributors to the wiki regarding bitcoin technicals
2229 2011-04-06 22:01:26 <krytzz> is that already implemented? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
2230 2011-04-06 22:01:59 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 2016 - ( 118943 % 2016 )
2231 2011-04-06 22:01:59 <gribble> 2,016 - (118,943 mod 2,016) = 1
2232 2011-04-06 22:02:24 <midnightmagic> oh
2233 2011-04-06 22:02:35 <jgarzik> krytzz: yes
2234 2011-04-06 22:02:46 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 2016 - (  117074 % 2016 )
2235 2011-04-06 22:02:47 <gribble> 2,016 - (117,074 mod 2,016) = 1,870
2236 2011-04-06 22:04:15 <midnightmagic> hrm.. is a sub-problem of energy-spent switching mining pools the same as someone controlling and taking advantage of an oscillating difficulty factor..
2237 2011-04-06 22:04:19 james has joined
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2241 2011-04-06 22:07:33 <krytzz> hm i think i have to read the code and take one day to really understand it all
2242 2011-04-06 22:09:03 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2243 2011-04-06 22:11:30 <midnightmagic> krytzz: the problem is that the rationale is missing from most of it. there are lots of arbitrary constants and arbitrary ways of doing things that have a tremendous impact on the network, but most of the rationale is..  basically missing.
2244 2011-04-06 22:12:22 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2245 2011-04-06 22:12:41 ArtForzZy is now known as ArtForz
2246 2011-04-06 22:12:48 <krytzz> midnightmagic: yes, i even didnt look at the network yet, only at the crypto stuff
2247 2011-04-06 22:12:48 <midnightmagic> the *why* is gone, and so intelligent discussion for changing the why in future iterations is therefore re-doing the thought, and potentially missing much of the original problem-solving.
2248 2011-04-06 22:13:08 <krytzz> the paper is also a bit short
2249 2011-04-06 22:13:09 <ArtForz> unless you're *renting* time, "taking advantage" of diff adjustments doesnt make sense
2250 2011-04-06 22:13:33 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: shutting down the machines and not spending money on the power means you only lose in depreciation of equipment..
2251 2011-04-06 22:13:39 <krytzz> a detailed technical document would be awesome
2252 2011-04-06 22:13:54 <ArtForz> yes, but if you lose money on power, you're doing it wrong
2253 2011-04-06 22:14:02 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: "turning off stuff" does indeed save on certain costs :)
2254 2011-04-06 22:14:12 <midnightmagic> right, i was just thinking of optimizing profitability.
2255 2011-04-06 22:14:38 <lfm> midnightmagic: perhaps there is no rational for those constants because it doesnt matter where they are set, so long as they exist
2256 2011-04-06 22:14:40 <midnightmagic> i guess the assumption is that you have a crushing amount of mystery-miner resources.
2257 2011-04-06 22:14:42 <jgarzik> If only I could find a way to get paid to -not- mine, like farmers get paid not to farm.
2258 2011-04-06 22:14:42 <ArtForz> yes, but that means if you have the same hashrate as the rest of the network, you hardware will sit around just depreciating 4/5 of the time
2259 2011-04-06 22:14:45 <jgarzik> :)
2260 2011-04-06 22:15:04 <midnightmagic> yeah, that's true. perhaps not then.
2261 2011-04-06 22:15:09 <krytzz> hehe
2262 2011-04-06 22:15:19 <krytzz> that reminds me of farmville cash lol
2263 2011-04-06 22:15:35 <ArtForz> and your income will be 1/3 of running flat out
2264 2011-04-06 22:16:22 <ArtForz> so it could make sense if you're running just barely above break-even, but thats still quite a long way off
2265 2011-04-06 22:17:12 <EvanR-work> jgarzik: i hate you
2266 2011-04-06 22:17:30 <jgarzik> ok?
2267 2011-04-06 22:17:41 <ArtForz> and that ignores the fun mining cartel attack
2268 2011-04-06 22:18:36 <EvanR-work> im still upset over wallstreet getting paid not to fail
2269 2011-04-06 22:18:38 <midnightmagic> lfm: even if they are truly arbitrary, knowledge of the fact that they are truly arbitrary (or lack thereof) might only be a win for satoshi if he's hoping that by being mysterious, the chance of changing the constants and/or forking the network is less.
2270 2011-04-06 22:19:38 kermit has joined
2271 2011-04-06 22:20:14 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: it's easy enough to change constants and start your own chain...
2272 2011-04-06 22:20:17 <midnightmagic> i mean why not put in the comments, "//completely arbitrary constant, bounded on low by X, high by Y"?
2273 2011-04-06 22:20:42 <EvanR-work> ask satoshi
2274 2011-04-06 22:20:48 <midnightmagic> he doesn't answer me.
2275 2011-04-06 22:20:51 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2276 2011-04-06 22:21:04 <RBecker> ;;bc,calc 57504
2277 2011-04-06 22:21:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 57504 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 10 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 28 minutes, and 24 seconds
2278 2011-04-06 22:21:56 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: sure, but if there is something special about the constants, then we're throwing away all the thought that went into them.
2279 2011-04-06 22:22:52 <midnightmagic> stuff like this makes me uneasy about the open-ness of the code, and makes me think that the majority of the actual work was done either in another dev-only client, or maybe in some notes somewhere, or literally just in satoshi's head.
2280 2011-04-06 22:23:10 <midnightmagic> but that's pure speculation.
2281 2011-04-06 22:23:22 <jgarzik> satoshi absolutely did put a ton of work and thought into it
2282 2011-04-06 22:24:00 <phantomcircuit> what are we talking about
2283 2011-04-06 22:24:00 <midnightmagic> yeah, i assume so too. but where is that work and thought? by not providing it, it's not open to public scrutiny.
2284 2011-04-06 22:24:30 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, what arbitrary constants are you thinking of?
2285 2011-04-06 22:25:31 <lfm> phantomcircuit: 50.00, 2016, 210000 for instance
2286 2011-04-06 22:25:35 <midnightmagic> the difficulty recalculation, the 600 second target, the halving reward system, the 8-digits of precision, and all the other little bits that are done way X instead of way Y.
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2290 2011-04-06 22:27:01 <krytzz> yeah would be great to have some alternative models and see the current one is the best :p
2291 2011-04-06 22:27:18 <midnightmagic> if by great you mean really shitty.. :)
2292 2011-04-06 22:27:40 <krytzz> if not and the network will fork or die it could discourage everyone and the idea will die itself
2293 2011-04-06 22:27:55 <krytzz> no i mean great :p
2294 2011-04-06 22:29:24 <jgarzik> krytzz: start krytzzcoins.  the source is out there.
2295 2011-04-06 22:29:53 <lfm> the 10 minute average make sense as a compromize between quick transactions and newtork latencies
2296 2011-04-06 22:30:01 <krytzz> jgarzik: no, im not a mathematican and no economist
2297 2011-04-06 22:30:24 <krytzz> and you'd better be both for that task i think
2298 2011-04-06 22:30:35 <jgarzik> krytzz: doesn't matter.  just change the genesis block and leave everything else alone, and you have krytzzcoins...
2299 2011-04-06 22:30:38 <phantomcircuit> krytzz, you could just fork the bitcoin source change the name and constants
2300 2011-04-06 22:30:40 <krytzz> i mean to really find out what is best
2301 2011-04-06 22:30:51 <midnightmagic> yeah, maybe, but based on what assumptions? what calculations? did he make a calculation of that based on some kind of network propagation model or did he just mentally estimate it?
2302 2011-04-06 22:30:56 <krytzz> yeah, but i wouldnt be able to gain good knowledge from it i think
2303 2011-04-06 22:30:58 <jgarzik> krytzz: only requires ability to (a) build source code and (b) hit random keys on keyboard ;)
2304 2011-04-06 22:30:58 <lfm> you could try to simulate other ways
2305 2011-04-06 22:31:09 <krytzz> yeah simulation would be cool
2306 2011-04-06 22:31:37 endian7000 has quit (Quit: endian7000)
2307 2011-04-06 22:31:49 <EvanR-work> midnightmagic: whatever he did, he didnt remember to make it super scalable
2308 2011-04-06 22:32:04 <krytzz> i want to have a ton of papers on bitcoin from cs and economy people
2309 2011-04-06 22:32:25 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, this is all just a guess but, 10 minutes seems reasonable (considering the initial block load is already kind of time consuming), 2016 is close enough that there is incentive to mine but far away enough that there wont be massive concentration (ie time for people to discover bitcoins), and the total generated i take as being more or less arbitrary
2310 2011-04-06 22:32:33 <jgarzik> one economist says that thinking of bitcoins as collective coins is his preferred mental model
2311 2011-04-06 22:32:38 <jgarzik> collectible
2312 2011-04-06 22:32:54 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, sounds about right
2313 2011-04-06 22:33:04 <lfm> EvanR-work: he did say that he hoped/assumed hardware advances would keep up with storage and bandwidth issues
2314 2011-04-06 22:33:50 kumi has joined
2315 2011-04-06 22:33:59 <EvanR-work> collectible coins doesnt make much sense
2316 2011-04-06 22:34:01 <krytzz> yes, some graph how gold findings are distributed vs bitcoin miners would be cool
2317 2011-04-06 22:34:03 <EvanR-work> because of the divisibility
2318 2011-04-06 22:34:13 <krytzz> you can divide gold?
2319 2011-04-06 22:34:17 <EvanR-work> yes
2320 2011-04-06 22:34:27 <EvanR-work> see oz of gold vs gram of gold
2321 2011-04-06 22:34:29 <phantomcircuit> depends on the type of gold actually
2322 2011-04-06 22:34:47 <jgarzik> pecunix gold
2323 2011-04-06 22:34:56 adlsaks has joined
2324 2011-04-06 22:35:02 <phantomcircuit> if you have odd sizes it'll be harder to sell and thus worth slightly less
2325 2011-04-06 22:35:21 <krytzz> ok but that isnt the point i think
2326 2011-04-06 22:35:29 <EvanR-work> so its even more divisible than gold
2327 2011-04-06 22:35:34 <kumi> Hm, Is there an API call that returns the most recent address added to an account, or an API call that sets the default address for an account?
2328 2011-04-06 22:35:34 <krytzz> the point is that some people have found gold and most havent
2329 2011-04-06 22:35:37 <EvanR-work> even farther from collectible coins
2330 2011-04-06 22:35:39 <phantomcircuit> EvanR-work, yeah
2331 2011-04-06 22:35:42 <krytzz> as like some people mine bitcoins and most havent yet
2332 2011-04-06 22:36:13 <lfm> EvanR-work: you ever seen gold foil? very small amounts of gold are used
2333 2011-04-06 22:36:23 <EvanR-work> yes
2334 2011-04-06 22:36:53 <krytzz> but i doubt the current distribution all over the world of bitcoins is "fair"
2335 2011-04-06 22:37:03 <midnightmagic> gold is one of the few things that can be "to airy thinness beat"
2336 2011-04-06 22:37:08 <krytzz> 1/3 of all are already mined and in hand of few people
2337 2011-04-06 22:37:19 <krytzz> dont know if with gold that was the same
2338 2011-04-06 22:37:26 <lfm> krytzz: why should it be fair? money isnt fair
2339 2011-04-06 22:37:41 <midnightmagic> hrm, the fairness thing sounds familiar.
2340 2011-04-06 22:37:51 <midnightmagic> have you been in here before talking about that?
2341 2011-04-06 22:37:51 <krytzz> because i want money to be fair
2342 2011-04-06 22:38:05 <krytzz> im here for a few days, maybe
2343 2011-04-06 22:38:19 <idnar> how would money be useful if it were fair?
2344 2011-04-06 22:38:27 <krytzz> not totally fair
2345 2011-04-06 22:38:29 <krytzz> but reasonable
2346 2011-04-06 22:38:40 <jgarzik> krytzz: bitcoin's declining rewards models real world resource extraction, where the early adopters get a lot, and it declines over time to almost nil
2347 2011-04-06 22:38:44 <sipa> i think bitcoin is reasonably fair
2348 2011-04-06 22:38:56 <idnar> krytzz: first go make wealth fair, then worry about money
2349 2011-04-06 22:39:23 <krytzz> jgarzik: yeah but the timeframe here is so short
2350 2011-04-06 22:39:25 <sipa> if late adopters don't find it fair enough, it will probably crash, and something better may be created
2351 2011-04-06 22:39:42 <krytzz> jgarzik: and for resource extraction you need at least people, for mining you need quite nothing, only hardware
2352 2011-04-06 22:39:46 <krytzz> yeah
2353 2011-04-06 22:40:02 <sipa> currently you really need an investment if you want some reasonable mining
2354 2011-04-06 22:40:06 <krytzz> idnar: i think money is an important factor in that
2355 2011-04-06 22:40:23 <kumi> Will transactions fees supplant the profit that miners currently see from generating?
2356 2011-04-06 22:40:29 <jgarzik> that's just the mining reward / bitcoin creation system.  late adopters will always be able to obtain bitcoins.  they wouldn't be worth much, otherwise.
2357 2011-04-06 22:40:44 <jgarzik> miner's best interest is to get bitcoins out there
2358 2011-04-06 22:40:57 <lfm> krytzz: dont call my computers "nothing" I think they are not bad
2359 2011-04-06 22:41:01 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2360 2011-04-06 22:41:07 <jgarzik> kumi: yes
2361 2011-04-06 22:41:18 <hozer> the design of bitcoin rewards those that spend the time and effort creating a viable currency
2362 2011-04-06 22:41:24 <hozer> I think that's quite fair
2363 2011-04-06 22:41:25 <midnightmagic> the problem is, thinking about this in the sense that mining should be fair to late-comers, when it reality, the late-comers shouldn't really be mining, but creating infrastrucutre, or selling goods and services in exchange for bitcoins.
2364 2011-04-06 22:41:26 <krytzz> lfm: quite nothing in comparison to drill equipment, shipment, infrastructure and stuff
2365 2011-04-06 22:41:28 echelon has joined
2366 2011-04-06 22:41:59 <sipa> midnightmagic: disagree, late-comers should be mining
2367 2011-04-06 22:41:59 bitcoiner has joined
2368 2011-04-06 22:42:00 <jgarzik> early life of <something> like this is high risk.  low reward for high risk doesn't often lead to success.
2369 2011-04-06 22:42:04 <sipa> but only a small % of them
2370 2011-04-06 22:42:06 <midnightmagic> it's a progression from boot-strappers (miners) to merchants and middlemen (users)
2371 2011-04-06 22:42:35 <hozer> latecomers should be making income from high-frequency block-chain based trading systems, and the computer hardware that goes with it ;)
2372 2011-04-06 22:42:42 <kumi> One thing I don't understand about transactions fees is: how is the proper cost of a transaction determined?
2373 2011-04-06 22:42:43 <lfm> krytzz: ah, so you are one of those people who think that virtual objects are not real
2374 2011-04-06 22:42:45 <midnightmagic> late-comers should be mining, but the real reward is in offering something to the people who have bitcoins, that they want and are willing to trade bitcoins for. that seems to me a potentially much more profitable endeavour.
2375 2011-04-06 22:43:04 <jgarzik> IMO mining will devolve down to a few, big entities, holding > 75% of network power.  Amateurs or small players, 25% or less.
2376 2011-04-06 22:43:22 <phantomcircuit> krytzz, money is not fair because reality is not fair, unequal distribution of wealth is a sign of an efficient currency
2377 2011-04-06 22:43:26 <krytzz> lfm: no
2378 2011-04-06 22:43:28 <phantomcircuit> (seriously)
2379 2011-04-06 22:43:31 <jgarzik> late-comers should be Aunt Tillie, buying flowers with bitcoins.  Not mining.
2380 2011-04-06 22:43:35 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: and then if they're ever unmasked as such, confidence in the currency disappears.
2381 2011-04-06 22:43:38 <hozer> jgarzik: Mining will devolve down to those with wind farms with excess power ;)
2382 2011-04-06 22:43:51 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: unmasked?  what do you think bitcoin looks like today?
2383 2011-04-06 22:43:54 <krytzz> phantomcircuit: maybe, i study cs :p
2384 2011-04-06 22:44:01 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: i don't follow.
2385 2011-04-06 22:44:36 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: > 50% of bitcoin network power today could be said to be in the hands of less than 10 individuals
2386 2011-04-06 22:44:47 <hozer> If you are going to talk about fairness, go hack the code and set up a new block chain that allows us to see who's holding those 5 million BTC
2387 2011-04-06 22:45:06 <phantomcircuit> krytzz, a free market inherently concentrates wealth, it takes money to make money, those who have the money make more money, it's recursive
2388 2011-04-06 22:45:28 <phantomcircuit> krytzz, really the only way to stop that would be to introduce wealth redistribution (aka steal)
2389 2011-04-06 22:45:54 <krytzz> phantomcircuit: ill think about that
2390 2011-04-06 22:46:01 <phantomcircuit> which indicentally is basically how the federal reserve acts
2391 2011-04-06 22:46:06 <hozer> or make it a demiurge currency
2392 2011-04-06 22:46:07 <lfm> hozer: while still being anonymous?
2393 2011-04-06 22:46:09 <phantomcircuit> except in reverse
2394 2011-04-06 22:46:10 <phantomcircuit> lol
2395 2011-04-06 22:46:11 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: but do they know about each other?
2396 2011-04-06 22:46:13 <jgarzik> We can all be misty-eyed and romantic about the grizzled, 80-year-old lone prospector out there with a pick, shovel and 5970.  But there are natural efficiences in larger mining operations...
2397 2011-04-06 22:46:35 <jgarzik> midnightmagic: we all do.  they're called pool server operators.
2398 2011-04-06 22:46:38 <jgarzik> or ArtForz.
2399 2011-04-06 22:46:39 <jgarzik> :)
2400 2011-04-06 22:46:44 <hozer> lfm: personally, I say you can have either anonymity or fairness. But not both
2401 2011-04-06 22:46:51 <jgarzik> or vladimir.  or...
2402 2011-04-06 22:47:36 <hozer> anyone else looked into Demurrage currencies?
2403 2011-04-06 22:47:47 <gjs278> anyone paying vlad is retarded
2404 2011-04-06 22:48:04 <hozer> which pool is vlad running
2405 2011-04-06 22:48:06 <gjs278> he charges the cost of the card after 3 months
2406 2011-04-06 22:48:14 <gjs278> no I'm talking about his mining service
2407 2011-04-06 22:48:17 <gjs278> where he mines for you
2408 2011-04-06 22:48:21 jackSmith has joined
2409 2011-04-06 22:48:23 sabalaba has joined
2410 2011-04-06 22:48:30 <gjs278> he probabyl does just slush or something
2411 2011-04-06 22:48:31 joepie92 has joined
2412 2011-04-06 22:49:12 joepie91 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2413 2011-04-06 22:49:37 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2414 2011-04-06 22:49:48 <midnightmagic> 3 months? and then he still mines for you right? or you get the card, yourself?
2415 2011-04-06 22:50:03 <gjs278> okay basically you pay him x amount of dollars
2416 2011-04-06 22:50:06 <krytzz> hozer: im not complaining, just thinking
2417 2011-04-06 22:50:09 <gjs278> and he agrees to mine say 500mhash for you
2418 2011-04-06 22:50:28 <midnightmagic> forever? or just until the card fails?
2419 2011-04-06 22:50:30 <gjs278> but he charges so much that you can just buy the card and do it yourself, and at the end, you'll still have your card
2420 2011-04-06 22:50:42 <gjs278> no, he'll manage it for you
2421 2011-04-06 22:50:57 <gjs278> like you pay him $600 and he magically puts 1 gigahash in your name for 3 months
2422 2011-04-06 22:51:05 <gjs278> using his own hardware
2423 2011-04-06 22:51:11 <lfm> I agree, youd be foolish to pay him
2424 2011-04-06 22:51:15 <ArtForz> yup
2425 2011-04-06 22:51:27 <midnightmagic> and then nothing?
2426 2011-04-06 22:51:31 <ArtForz> yup
2427 2011-04-06 22:51:33 <gjs278> and then nothing
2428 2011-04-06 22:51:37 <midnightmagic> jesus christ.
2429 2011-04-06 22:51:44 <gjs278> you'd be better off just buying coins when they're at 50 cents each
2430 2011-04-06 22:51:55 <gjs278> at least you'll get your coins for sure
2431 2011-04-06 22:52:04 <ArtForz> his *cheapest* option is like $470/gh/mo
2432 2011-04-06 22:52:18 <gjs278> yeah it's pretty funny
2433 2011-04-06 22:52:25 alkor has joined
2434 2011-04-06 22:52:35 <ArtForz> smaller/short term stuff is like >$600/gh/mo
2435 2011-04-06 22:52:37 <krytzz> well bad offerings arent that special
2436 2011-04-06 22:53:24 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2437 2011-04-06 22:53:25 <lfm> and if its all legit, he would be better off mining for himself
2438 2011-04-06 22:53:37 alkor has left ()
2439 2011-04-06 22:53:47 <ArtForz> lfm: lower risk if you rent out stuff
2440 2011-04-06 22:53:50 <grbgout> ArtForz: I asked a dumb hardware question in -discussion, and it was suggested I defer to you.
2441 2011-04-06 22:54:04 <grbgout> ArtForz: "Dumb hardware question: if I pickup a new GPU that uses a PCI Express 2.1 (or 2.0) x16 interface, will it work in my PCI Express x16 slot (down-sampled to a slower clock, or something)?"
2442 2011-04-06 22:54:11 <ArtForz> yes
2443 2011-04-06 22:54:18 <gjs278> it will work at the default clock
2444 2011-04-06 22:54:21 <ArtForz> it will work at pcie 1.0 speeds
2445 2011-04-06 22:54:25 alkor has joined
2446 2011-04-06 22:54:27 <ArtForz> which doesnt matter one bit for mining
2447 2011-04-06 22:54:34 <grbgout> no?
2448 2011-04-06 22:54:37 <ArtForz> even PCIe 1.0 x1 is fast enough
2449 2011-04-06 22:54:45 <ArtForz> we really dont need much bus bandwidth
2450 2011-04-06 22:54:49 <grbgout> the PCIe speed doesn't influence the clock speed?
2451 2011-04-06 22:54:53 <ArtForz> nope
2452 2011-04-06 22:55:02 <midnightmagic> there was a couple of guys in here talking about it a while back who were mining with x1-to-x16 converters..
2453 2011-04-06 22:55:02 <sipa> only the transfer speed between system and gpu
2454 2011-04-06 22:55:05 <grbgout> that's all on-card memory, right?
2455 2011-04-06 22:55:10 <grbgout> the clock speed, I mean
2456 2011-04-06 22:55:14 <ArtForz> yeah
2457 2011-04-06 22:55:22 <ArtForz> PCIe just affects host<->gpu transfer speed
2458 2011-04-06 22:55:24 <midnightmagic> apparently.
2459 2011-04-06 22:55:32 <grbgout> midnightmagic: yeah, depending on how far back you're talking about, I was one of them :)
2460 2011-04-06 22:55:32 <ArtForz> and as we're only tzranferring a few kB/sec there ...
2461 2011-04-06 22:55:43 <midnightmagic> oh. :)
2462 2011-04-06 22:55:45 <grbgout> ArtForz: cool, thanks for the confirmation.
2463 2011-04-06 22:55:58 <midnightmagic> so why are you asking, out of curiosity?
2464 2011-04-06 22:56:15 <grbgout> midnightmagic: I mean, someone mentioned that to me and provided a link to some uber-hashing rig for md5
2465 2011-04-06 22:56:29 <midnightmagic> ah i see
2466 2011-04-06 22:56:30 <ArtForz> mrb's quad 5970 rig?
2467 2011-04-06 22:56:42 <ArtForz> yeah, it's pretty cute ;)
2468 2011-04-06 22:56:54 <grbgout> midnightmagic: just making sure.  I presumed it would work, based on what I knew about x1 extenders, but if I'm going to drop cash on a new card, I'm going to be certain beforehand.... Since I don't have any newer x16 slots
2469 2011-04-06 22:57:08 <midnightmagic> ah i see.
2470 2011-04-06 22:57:13 <ArtForz> honestly I wouldnt bother with it nowadays
2471 2011-04-06 22:57:16 <grbgout> so, just due diligence, I guess
2472 2011-04-06 22:57:31 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: oh?
2473 2011-04-06 22:57:34 <ArtForz> yeah
2474 2011-04-06 22:57:35 <grbgout> ArtForz: bother with what? Mining?
2475 2011-04-06 22:57:42 <ArtForz> no, bother with PCIe extenders
2476 2011-04-06 22:57:45 <grbgout> oh
2477 2011-04-06 22:57:46 <grbgout> how come?
2478 2011-04-06 22:57:57 <ArtForz> *way* less fucking around required
2479 2011-04-06 22:58:01 <gjs278> you don't have an open 16x?
2480 2011-04-06 22:58:05 <midnightmagic> right, because you'd just buy custom chips right? ;-)
2481 2011-04-06 22:58:06 <ArtForz> and not really much more expensive
2482 2011-04-06 22:58:18 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2483 2011-04-06 22:58:30 <grbgout> gjs278: I do.  I mean, I'll swap out my existing card.  I was just making absolutely sure that a 2.0, or 2.1, would work in my ancient 1.0 slot.
2484 2011-04-06 22:58:33 <midnightmagic> oh you're serious. :)
2485 2011-04-06 22:58:35 <ArtForz> mainboard+cpu+ram isnt exactly a large part of the cost
2486 2011-04-06 22:58:59 <midnightmagic> but they eat a hundred watts or so don't they?
2487 2011-04-06 22:59:03 <ArtForz> huH?
2488 2011-04-06 22:59:07 <gjs278> I have 3 pci express slots but they downgrade the slots once you put two cards in
2489 2011-04-06 22:59:08 <phantomcircuit> lol
2490 2011-04-06 22:59:10 <phantomcircuit> no
2491 2011-04-06 22:59:12 <ArtForz> more like 20
2492 2011-04-06 22:59:25 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, who cares?
2493 2011-04-06 22:59:32 <gjs278> I dont
2494 2011-04-06 22:59:36 <midnightmagic> really? oh, i see. you're pxe booting?
2495 2011-04-06 22:59:38 <gjs278> I have a raid card in the 4x
2496 2011-04-06 22:59:38 <grbgout> here's another dumb question (because at one point in my life i knew the answer): according to the manufacturer specification, my card has a maximum wattage draw of 69W, but the recommended minimum PSU is 500W.  Why?
2497 2011-04-06 22:59:50 <ArtForz> grbgout: chinese PSU manfuacturers
2498 2011-04-06 23:00:02 xelister has joined
2499 2011-04-06 23:00:02 <krytzz> grbgout: because the rest of the computer also consumes power? :p
2500 2011-04-06 23:00:02 <grbgout> ArtForz: ah, so quality of the rails?
2501 2011-04-06 23:00:05 <xelister> hi
2502 2011-04-06 23:00:10 <grbgout> krytzz: not that much.
2503 2011-04-06 23:00:13 <gjs278> they figure you're going to blow 200 or so on the processor and stuff
2504 2011-04-06 23:00:14 <xelister> I noticed that bitcoin.org had been faggotized
2505 2011-04-06 23:00:15 <ArtForz> I've seen "650W" PSUs blow up at ~350W load
2506 2011-04-06 23:00:17 <xelister> what happened?
2507 2011-04-06 23:00:23 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, 500W is the peak, that doesn't tell you what they can sustain
2508 2011-04-06 23:00:31 <grbgout> ArtForz: indeed, I've seen some horror stories in PSU comparisons.
2509 2011-04-06 23:00:50 <ArtForz> actually on a lot of cheap PSUs the label number is probably the amount of power it can sustain for 1ms or so
2510 2011-04-06 23:01:15 <phantomcircuit> i blew out a speaker
2511 2011-04-06 23:01:17 <phantomcircuit> rofl
2512 2011-04-06 23:01:17 <ArtForz> so... PMPO watts *headdesk*
2513 2011-04-06 23:01:20 <gjs278> I have a corsair 850 I got for $89 at bestbuy
2514 2011-04-06 23:01:21 <grbgout> phantomcircuit: I'm asking about why the GPU manufacturer recommends such a high wattage PSU for a card that only draws a maximum of 69W (as per /theri/ spec info).
2515 2011-04-06 23:01:25 <legion050> xelister: oh yeah?
2516 2011-04-06 23:01:29 <nanotube> xelister: trying to appeal to the masses, i guess. :)
2517 2011-04-06 23:01:40 <gjs278> because the 500w supply can really only do 400 usually
2518 2011-04-06 23:01:42 <ArtForz> even a *really* high-end box is usually < 200W
2519 2011-04-06 23:01:46 <gjs278> and they figure you're going to waste more
2520 2011-04-06 23:01:49 <gjs278> so 500 is safe
2521 2011-04-06 23:01:52 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, because the PSU people lie and you'll need some power for the mobo/cpu/ram
2522 2011-04-06 23:01:57 <gjs278> they don't want people coming back with 400s and complaining
2523 2011-04-06 23:02:15 <midnightmagic> grbgout: part of it might be efficiency. there's an efficiency curve and right near the middle is usually where it's most efficient at delivering power to your pc.
2524 2011-04-06 23:02:22 <bd_> The PSU max power is usually rated with all power busses at their individual maximums, too. You can't put all that load on a single bus, however.
2525 2011-04-06 23:02:35 <midnightmagic> bd_: unless it's a single-rail.
2526 2011-04-06 23:02:41 <ArtForz> bd_: and more often than not it's simly pulled out of the mfgs ass
2527 2011-04-06 23:02:50 <xelister> nanotube: are we sure gayfags are the main target for bitcoin?
2528 2011-04-06 23:02:52 <bd_> midnightmagic: Surely the voltage converters have their limits as well, even then?
2529 2011-04-06 23:03:09 <xelister> yes, geyfags
2530 2011-04-06 23:03:13 <xelister> because flash = gay²
2531 2011-04-06 23:03:17 <ArtForz> I've seen a chinese "500W" unit myself that was 100% part-for-püart identical to a older 300W from the same mfg
2532 2011-04-06 23:03:29 <midnightmagic> bd_: i have an AX1200W and that thing shares a single 12V rail everywhere. it's awesome. really powerful.
2533 2011-04-06 23:03:35 <xelister> half of www.bitcoin.org is now some shitty flash shit. (I dunno what it is since I dont use flashshit)
2534 2011-04-06 23:03:39 <ArtForz> they just increased rating for everything by 5/3
2535 2011-04-06 23:03:42 <grbgout> phantomcircuit: I don't buy the "'cause the rest of the machine draws omgz so much power" argument.  But I don't doubt a GPU manufacturer would use it to recommend a PSU.
2536 2011-04-06 23:03:44 <nanotube> xelister: you know your gratuitous insults of gay people do nothing to raise your credibility on this chan....
2537 2011-04-06 23:04:23 <midnightmagic> i'll never buy anything but monorail from now on.
2538 2011-04-06 23:04:24 <bd_> midnightmagic: Surely they don't share the +12V rail with the +3.3VDC, +5VDC, and -12VDC pins... :)
2539 2011-04-06 23:04:32 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, it's a combination, they're adding some for the rest of the system and then a lot for psu makers straight up lying
2540 2011-04-06 23:04:32 <grbgout> woah, when did they facelift bitcoin.org?
2541 2011-04-06 23:04:36 <ArtForz> actually they kinda do
2542 2011-04-06 23:04:38 <midnightmagic> bd_: no, everywhere there's 12V, it's coming from the same place in the PSU.
2543 2011-04-06 23:04:47 <xelister> grbgout: facelift? more like made it lame
2544 2011-04-06 23:04:47 <bd_> midnightmagic: ah, okay then
2545 2011-04-06 23:04:49 <ArtForz> modern PSUs really only have +12 and a bunch of Dc-DCs for +5/+3.3/-12
2546 2011-04-06 23:05:00 misterex has joined
2547 2011-04-06 23:05:04 <ArtForz> pretty much all 80+ gold ones
2548 2011-04-06 23:05:06 <midnightmagic> bd_: for my AX1200W anyway..
2549 2011-04-06 23:05:08 <grbgout> xelister: I never said anything about a facelift being a good thing.  Haven't you seen plenty of horrible facelifts?
2550 2011-04-06 23:05:11 <bd_> ArtForz: Right. Your PSU might not be able to serve its full draw on the +5/+3.3/-12 rails, then.
2551 2011-04-06 23:05:16 <ArtForz> yes
2552 2011-04-06 23:05:27 <grbgout> xelister: I thought the site was fine the way it was.
2553 2011-04-06 23:05:37 <ArtForz> but that means 12V only = full PSU output, anything on the minor rails substracts from that
2554 2011-04-06 23:05:50 <grbgout> the old site was far more initially informative
2555 2011-04-06 23:06:02 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
2556 2011-04-06 23:06:03 <ArtForz> which is a pretty damn useful trait if you want to use a PSU for PCIe power only
2557 2011-04-06 23:06:17 <ArtForz> older group designs dont exactlöy like having no load at all on +5/+3.3
2558 2011-04-06 23:06:33 <grbgout> hmm
2559 2011-04-06 23:06:37 alkor has joined
2560 2011-04-06 23:06:41 <midnightmagic> ArtForz: and run out of PCIe cables on your modular AX1200W and have to use a bunch of molex->pcie converters. :(
2561 2011-04-06 23:06:44 <grbgout> some of your characters appear as question-marks on my client, ArtForz.
2562 2011-04-06 23:06:49 <ArtForz> but if it's just a AC->12VDC PSU with a bunch of DC-DCs, pure 12V load is fine
2563 2011-04-06 23:06:54 <nanotube> grbgout: well, the weusecoins video is pretty neat. but besides that yes, some more information would be nice i think.
2564 2011-04-06 23:06:56 <xelister> Diablo-D3: you seen the new bitcoin.org page?  wtf
2565 2011-04-06 23:07:04 <ArtForz> thats weird
2566 2011-04-06 23:07:17 <ArtForz> I'm just using ascii chars
2567 2011-04-06 23:07:26 <grbgout> ArtForz: the a in the second part of "part-for-part", and the y in exactly.
2568 2011-04-06 23:07:37 <midnightmagic> [16:03] <ArtForz> older group designs dont exactlöy like having no load at all on +5/+3.3
2569 2011-04-06 23:07:41 <ArtForz> oh
2570 2011-04-06 23:07:55 <ArtForz> yeah, I managed to fat-finger a umlaut in there
2571 2011-04-06 23:07:58 sacarlson has joined
2572 2011-04-06 23:08:20 <grbgout> nanotube: the video is good, but the lead-in information before the video on the old site was as well.
2573 2011-04-06 23:08:23 <ArtForz> so just the normal irc "is it utf8 or iso-8859-1 or what" mess
2574 2011-04-06 23:08:33 <midnightmagic> what's "exactlöy"?
2575 2011-04-06 23:08:39 <xelister> nanotube: flash
2576 2011-04-06 23:08:40 <xelister> is
2577 2011-04-06 23:08:42 <xelister> gay
2578 2011-04-06 23:08:45 <ArtForz> exactly with a ö
2579 2011-04-06 23:08:46 <xelister> as big gay all, but more
2580 2011-04-06 23:08:51 <xelister> *Al
2581 2011-04-06 23:08:54 <midnightmagic> :-)
2582 2011-04-06 23:09:09 <midnightmagic> i love .XCompose..
2583 2011-04-06 23:09:12 <xelister> nanotube: seriously the new page looks like some crappy web 2.0 abibas commerciall
2584 2011-04-06 23:09:14 <phantomcircuit> i love the code xchat uses to figure out the charset
2585 2011-04-06 23:09:17 <phantomcircuit> it's hilarious
2586 2011-04-06 23:09:32 <sipa> does it work?
2587 2011-04-06 23:09:40 <nanotube> grbgout: yea i'm a fan of information too. :) sirius-m ^ people want more actual information on the front page. ;)
2588 2011-04-06 23:09:45 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah it does actually
2589 2011-04-06 23:09:48 <xelister> nanotube: at least make the video downloadable as some other format (no, not silverlight :>) so geeks will not get outraged with this "facelift"
2590 2011-04-06 23:10:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa, their url identification code? not so much (which btw runs everytime you move the mouse... for each pixel)
2591 2011-04-06 23:10:05 <nanotube> xelister: i can get behind that. (downloadable video link)
2592 2011-04-06 23:10:11 <nanotube> sirius-m: ^
2593 2011-04-06 23:10:31 <xelister> nanotube: my normal reaction to all- or half- flash sites is ctrl+W
2594 2011-04-06 23:10:34 <grbgout> frankly, if this were the site I arrived at when first finding bitcoin, I may not have even bothered.... Then again, the video probably would have suaded me to look further.  But that lead in paragraph about P2p.... ouch.
2595 2011-04-06 23:10:59 <xelister> and at first glance this looks like flash mainly page
2596 2011-04-06 23:11:05 <midnightmagic> xelister: i think there's a torrent for like 4 versions of it. i've been showing that video to everyone for a week.
2597 2011-04-06 23:11:21 <ArtForz> eww
2598 2011-04-06 23:11:21 <xelister> midnightmagic: well I dunno what the vid is, I dont have flash
2599 2011-04-06 23:11:26 <ArtForz> new main page sucks
2600 2011-04-06 23:11:32 <xelister> it sucks doneky balls
2601 2011-04-06 23:11:37 <xelister> I KNOW I KNOW
2602 2011-04-06 23:11:42 <xelister> Did Ati sponsored the new page :>>>
2603 2011-04-06 23:11:44 <ArtForz> same here, no flash on my main browser
2604 2011-04-06 23:11:46 <phantomcircuit> who does the mail page?
2605 2011-04-06 23:11:51 <phantomcircuit> main*
2606 2011-04-06 23:12:02 <grbgout> I use on-demand flash... brb
2607 2011-04-06 23:12:38 <xelister> Crypto-currency
2608 2011-04-06 23:12:45 <xelister> we are serious business
2609 2011-04-06 23:12:49 <xelister> cryptoanarchy
2610 2011-04-06 23:12:50 <xelister> linux
2611 2011-04-06 23:12:52 <xelister> opensource
2612 2011-04-06 23:12:59 <xelister> and we use flash :D :D lol look shiny
2613 2011-04-06 23:13:09 <ArtForz> lol
2614 2011-04-06 23:13:09 <xelister> ^-- what kind of message is that to new users?
2615 2011-04-06 23:13:14 <midnightmagic> i think the old page was ugly. this one looks nicer except for the indents and the youtube video and the facebook spy and the twitter window.
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2617 2011-04-06 23:13:20 <phantomcircuit> well shit my speaker is actually broken
2618 2011-04-06 23:13:30 <xelister> it looks like a web 2.0 shitpage
2619 2011-04-06 23:13:45 <midnightmagic> hey man, don't knock web 2.0, safari online rules.
2620 2011-04-06 23:13:55 <ArtForz> yeah
2621 2011-04-06 23:14:03 <phantomcircuit> haha
2622 2011-04-06 23:14:06 <ArtForz> content? we have rounded corners!
2623 2011-04-06 23:14:06 <phantomcircuit> if you think that looks bad
2624 2011-04-06 23:14:12 <phantomcircuit> http://seekskill.com:3000/
2625 2011-04-06 23:14:12 <xelister> and shadows <3
2626 2011-04-06 23:14:15 <midnightmagic> i can read books in konqueror. who makes pages that actually work in konqueror?!
2627 2011-04-06 23:14:22 <phantomcircuit> BASK IN MY WEB DESIGN SKILLZ
2628 2011-04-06 23:14:38 <xelister> I want glossy font animation or no deal :-&
2629 2011-04-06 23:14:45 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, if it works in safari/chrome it'll probably work in konqueror
2630 2011-04-06 23:15:10 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: i would have hoped so.. and yet.. mostly konqueror just falls over most of the time.
2631 2011-04-06 23:15:16 <xelister> more 2.0 style might be good for mass market but it is currently also putting away a bit the geek users. is this the time for this?
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2633 2011-04-06 23:15:36 <phantomcircuit> xelister, all of my web 2.0 goodness has web 1.0 fail over
2634 2011-04-06 23:15:39 <phantomcircuit> because im boss
2635 2011-04-06 23:15:43 <xelister> \o/
2636 2011-04-06 23:15:52 <phantomcircuit> also
2637 2011-04-06 23:15:52 <phantomcircuit> ada
2638 2011-04-06 23:15:59 lyspooner has joined
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2640 2011-04-06 23:16:11 <phantomcircuit> most of the web 2.0 sites aren't ada compliant and eventually will get sued into oblivion
2641 2011-04-06 23:16:17 <midnightmagic> 2.0 ajaxy awesomeness is awesome. just because people keep making shit out of it doesn't mean it isn't awesome.
2642 2011-04-06 23:17:16 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, it can be awesome
2643 2011-04-06 23:17:21 <phantomcircuit> otoh it often breaks
2644 2011-04-06 23:17:43 <phantomcircuit> i was trying to look up the heavenly ski area weather report at dinner last night
2645 2011-04-06 23:17:45 sethsethseth has joined
2646 2011-04-06 23:17:54 <phantomcircuit> but couldn't because their web 2.0 shit didn't run on my android phone
2647 2011-04-06 23:18:04 <phantomcircuit> which cost them business
2648 2011-04-06 23:18:13 <phantomcircuit> because im sitting here instead of being there
2649 2011-04-06 23:18:33 <midnightmagic> are android phone properly open source these days yet?
2650 2011-04-06 23:18:40 <phantomcircuit> kind of
2651 2011-04-06 23:18:56 <sirius-m> hatters gonna hat
2652 2011-04-06 23:18:58 <phantomcircuit> the kernel is obviously GPL
2653 2011-04-06 23:19:08 <phantomcircuit> the rest of it is apache licensed
2654 2011-04-06 23:19:23 <midnightmagic> so all the rest of it is still all binary blobs?
2655 2011-04-06 23:19:31 <krytzz> not really, most phones have a bootloader that check the signature of your rom -> no flashing
2656 2011-04-06 23:19:32 <phantomcircuit> but really the stuff that gets added to the base apache licensed code is totally useless so
2657 2011-04-06 23:19:33 <phantomcircuit> whatever
2658 2011-04-06 23:19:56 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, the stuff the the phone manufacturers is a binary blob
2659 2011-04-06 23:20:05 <phantomcircuit> however it's almost universally an inferior binary blob
2660 2011-04-06 23:20:06 <phantomcircuit> so
2661 2011-04-06 23:20:08 <phantomcircuit> whatevah
2662 2011-04-06 23:20:25 <midnightmagic> isn't that the radio/firmware stuff?
2663 2011-04-06 23:20:28 <sirius-m> btw, the previous page had flash too
2664 2011-04-06 23:20:35 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2665 2011-04-06 23:20:42 <krytzz> midnightmagic: no also gpu driver for example
2666 2011-04-06 23:20:49 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,blocks
2667 2011-04-06 23:20:49 <gribble> 117085
2668 2011-04-06 23:21:00 <midnightmagic> ah
2669 2011-04-06 23:21:03 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, the radio baseband/wifi/gpu are all binary blob drivers much like the nvidia drivers
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2671 2011-04-06 23:21:17 <nanotube> sirius-m: yes but it wasn't so prominent, and didn't take up 90% of the first half of the page. :)
2672 2011-04-06 23:21:20 <sirius-m> the content is now better than before, but I'm open to new layouts if someone bothers to make one instead of complaining
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2676 2011-04-06 23:22:13 <nanotube> sirius-m: is the old site archived, btw?
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2678 2011-04-06 23:22:33 <sirius-m> nanotube: http://www.bitcoin.org/index.php
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2680 2011-04-06 23:23:33 <sirius-m> completely redesigned proposals are welcome too
2681 2011-04-06 23:23:45 <sirius-m> if it sucks, make it better
2682 2011-04-06 23:23:47 <nanotube> sirius-m: hmm i guess we didn't really lose much by way of information.
2683 2011-04-06 23:24:05 <phantomcircuit> sirius-m, where can i get a high res of the video?
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2692 2011-04-06 23:33:15 <sirius-m> phantomcircuit: on youtube
2693 2011-04-06 23:33:18 <xelister> sirius-m: give the video as a download in mpeg for users that refrain from using flashshit
2694 2011-04-06 23:33:42 <xelister> or even better hide entire div with flash if flash is not enabled
2695 2011-04-06 23:34:17 <doublec> or use html 5 video
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