1 2011-04-07 00:01:29 <Kiba> yo
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5 2011-04-07 00:09:34 <lfm> why the inconsistant version numbers?
6 2011-04-07 00:09:47 <luke-jr> non-Flash should be a requirement of any proposal before it gets live
7 2011-04-07 00:10:28 <luke-jr> slightly more importantly, why is the site promoting builtin CPU mining?
8 2011-04-07 00:10:40 DrQ has joined
9 2011-04-07 00:10:58 <Kiba> luke-jr: which site?
10 2011-04-07 00:11:05 <luke-jr> http://www.bitcoin.org/index.php
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14 2011-04-07 00:12:18 <lfm> luke thats the old site
15 2011-04-07 00:12:23 <luke-jr> midnightmagic: Konqueror ftw
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39 2011-04-07 00:46:36 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: I have four copies of various resolutions of the file, in a .torrent, including a 1080p version I believe, and it hasn't gone through youtube as far as I can tell.
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44 2011-04-07 01:03:11 * Kiba retires to bed today
45 2011-04-07 01:04:50 <gjs278> I hate people in open source
46 2011-04-07 01:04:58 <gjs278> they make a shit design, and then complain at us when we complain about it
47 2011-04-07 01:05:19 <gjs278> old bitcoin.org owned
48 2011-04-07 01:06:33 theorbtwo has joined
49 2011-04-07 01:06:53 <lfm> gjs278: so make your own bitcoin.info or something
50 2011-04-07 01:07:10 <gjs278> or don't screw up the old one that everyone already visits?
51 2011-04-07 01:07:12 <Blitzboom> or make a design and offer it
52 2011-04-07 01:07:23 <gjs278> I have a proposal: use the old one
53 2011-04-07 01:07:27 <gjs278> that's my submission
54 2011-04-07 01:07:42 <Blitzboom> i like the new one better
55 2011-04-07 01:07:49 <lfm> the old one is still there bitcoin.org/index.php
56 2011-04-07 01:08:10 <gjs278> I feel for the people who will see bitcoin.org instead though
57 2011-04-07 01:08:23 <gjs278> I do like the ability to side by side compare though
58 2011-04-07 01:09:31 tabsa has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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60 2011-04-07 01:10:56 <gjs278> make the site a github entry and I'll at least make it validate and display cross correctly
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63 2011-04-07 01:13:23 <gjs278> here's a major issue: on the main page, we have a youtube video. that's fine, I personally don't like watching videos to have things explained to me but whatever. but the very first link we have links to weusecoins.com which has the exact same video the user already saw taking up the entire top screen
64 2011-04-07 01:13:51 <gjs278> and that's marked "Introduction to Bitcoin" but they've already received that intro on this site
65 2011-04-07 01:13:56 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
66 2011-04-07 01:14:48 <gjs278> the video should just be taken off of bitcoin.org and if they want to see the video, they'll click the first link and see it there. that way people who already know about bitcoins can get on their way and download the client or get to the forums
67 2011-04-07 01:16:02 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, kind of a minor issue
68 2011-04-07 01:16:28 <gjs278> considering this web page is 50% video I don't know how it could be minor
69 2011-04-07 01:16:38 <gjs278> it's the biggest element of the site
70 2011-04-07 01:17:06 <gjs278> on the old design the video wasn't in the way because the links were on the right
71 2011-04-07 01:17:13 <gjs278> so if you knew what you were there for, you got right to it
72 2011-04-07 01:17:49 <lfm> I think if you really cared you would make your own bitcoin.info or something
73 2011-04-07 01:18:13 <gjs278> no seriously lfm
74 2011-04-07 01:18:19 <gjs278> I dont have all of the traffic pointing to bitcoin.info
75 2011-04-07 01:18:22 <gjs278> this is our representation
76 2011-04-07 01:18:26 <gjs278> the official client is hosted here
77 2011-04-07 01:18:41 <gjs278> people are going to use this as the main resource, and it can at least look nice
78 2011-04-07 01:18:50 <gjs278> and be efficient to use
79 2011-04-07 01:19:10 <lfm> if not, then you just like complaining. If you did better than them you would become the official main site
80 2011-04-07 01:19:10 <phantomcircuit> i have an old p4 system
81 2011-04-07 01:19:15 <phantomcircuit> it's the slowest pos ever
82 2011-04-07 01:19:16 <gjs278> no I wouldnt
83 2011-04-07 01:19:30 <gjs278> I'd have to rebrand the entire client
84 2011-04-07 01:19:42 <gjs278> I'd have to convince everyone to abandon the old domain and use mine instead
85 2011-04-07 01:19:45 btctest has joined
86 2011-04-07 01:19:47 <lfm> naw, its open source, just copy it
87 2011-04-07 01:19:55 <gjs278> so you want me to fork the client?
88 2011-04-07 01:20:00 <gjs278> and divide the community
89 2011-04-07 01:20:05 <gjs278> because we can't have a decent website?
90 2011-04-07 01:20:16 <lfm> just copy their app, its the site you wanna change
91 2011-04-07 01:20:34 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, just dont change the genesis_block
92 2011-04-07 01:20:36 <phantomcircuit> magic
93 2011-04-07 01:20:41 <lfm> they just point at sourceforge, so could you
94 2011-04-07 01:20:54 <gjs278> there are references to bitcoin.org inside of the program
95 2011-04-07 01:21:01 <gjs278> I can't have that if I want people to use bitcoin.info
96 2011-04-07 01:21:01 <phantomcircuit> you could change the entire ui and keep the same community simply by not changing the genesis block
97 2011-04-07 01:21:17 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, there is nothing special about bitcoin.org
98 2011-04-07 01:21:18 <phantomcircuit> at all
99 2011-04-07 01:21:25 <gjs278> it's referenced in the main client
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102 2011-04-07 01:21:29 <lfm> if you become the main site then they would change the source to your or to include both
103 2011-04-07 01:21:42 <gjs278> how could I become the main site if the client refers to it
104 2011-04-07 01:21:45 <gjs278> I'd never have a chance
105 2011-04-07 01:21:55 <gjs278> take out bitcoin.org on the client and let me have a fair shot
106 2011-04-07 01:21:57 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, so what you're saying is
107 2011-04-07 01:21:59 <phantomcircuit> bahhhhhh
108 2011-04-07 01:22:08 <lfm> bah, give up before you try, go ahead, I dont care either
109 2011-04-07 01:22:09 <phantomcircuit> you sound like microsoft
110 2011-04-07 01:22:12 <gjs278> I think the new design is slow and inefficient. I think it could be better
111 2011-04-07 01:22:21 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, make a better design
112 2011-04-07 01:22:23 <phantomcircuit> put it up
113 2011-04-07 01:22:26 <phantomcircuit> allow copying
114 2011-04-07 01:22:27 <phantomcircuit> ?!?!
115 2011-04-07 01:22:35 <gjs278> lfm is telling me I have to use bitcoin.info
116 2011-04-07 01:22:45 <gjs278> because my design could never be on the precious bitcoin.org design
117 2011-04-07 01:23:05 <lfm> gjs278: just suggesting, do what you want
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119 2011-04-07 01:23:19 <phantomcircuit> this is childish and stupid
120 2011-04-07 01:23:21 <gjs278> I'm suggesting that the main site be added to github and allows people to design it there
121 2011-04-07 01:23:23 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, please stop
122 2011-04-07 01:23:23 <lfm> well you dont own bitcoin.org
123 2011-04-07 01:23:28 <gjs278> I know that
124 2011-04-07 01:23:31 <gjs278> and I think it looks like crap
125 2011-04-07 01:23:39 <gjs278> but
126 2011-04-07 01:23:42 <gjs278> if you want suggestions
127 2011-04-07 01:23:45 <gjs278> please add the site
128 2011-04-07 01:23:49 <gjs278> and I will make a pull request
129 2011-04-07 01:24:00 <gjs278> and then we will not have to split domains and if my ideas are good, they can be on the main site
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131 2011-04-07 01:24:21 <lfm> gjs278: make your own git and let them pull it
132 2011-04-07 01:24:23 <gjs278> isn't that a fair idea for the main page?
133 2011-04-07 01:24:57 <gjs278> I don't think it should be solely me, I believe everyone should have an opportunity for website input. a git repo would allow for that, and would have much credibility if hosted by the main project
134 2011-04-07 01:25:01 <gjs278> I will make one for now
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136 2011-04-07 01:25:08 <gjs278> but I would like to see participation and ideas in it
137 2011-04-07 01:25:24 <gjs278> and I don't think my repo would see much activity unless it was endorsed by the project
138 2011-04-07 01:25:32 <lfm> but I dont see why we cant have both, im sure some people do/wo prefer the current one
139 2011-04-07 01:25:40 <gjs278> I believe so too
140 2011-04-07 01:25:45 <gjs278> but there's room inbetween for the improvements
141 2011-04-07 01:26:00 <gjs278> it's just kind of clunky to express those ideas right now
142 2011-04-07 01:28:26 <gjs278> are there any other pages on bitcoin.org besides the main page that would have to be incorporated into the design?
143 2011-04-07 01:28:31 <gjs278> it looks like most links are external
144 2011-04-07 01:29:25 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, https://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin.org
145 2011-04-07 01:29:28 <phantomcircuit> ITS OFFICIAL
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147 2011-04-07 01:30:23 <gjs278> well to be official it would have to be published under https://github.com/bitcoin and have the existing files already there, but that's good too
148 2011-04-07 01:30:52 <gjs278> I want to submit a complete site and just want to be sure I don't miss anything
149 2011-04-07 01:31:04 <gjs278> like pages that aren't linked to the main page and whatnot
150 2011-04-07 01:32:41 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, there is literally only a single page
151 2011-04-07 01:32:52 <phantomcircuit> also
152 2011-04-07 01:32:59 <phantomcircuit> i <3 github's 404
153 2011-04-07 01:33:03 <gjs278> what about http://www.bitcoin.org/trade
154 2011-04-07 01:33:12 <gjs278> http://www.bitcoin.org/faq
155 2011-04-07 01:33:13 <gjs278> etc
156 2011-04-07 01:33:29 <gjs278> no point in being inconsisent on the design, I would like to make it a complete package
157 2011-04-07 01:33:55 <phantomcircuit> those are now linked to the wiki
158 2011-04-07 01:33:57 <phantomcircuit> which makes sense
159 2011-04-07 01:34:33 <gjs278> in most cases they would just be forwards, but it would be important for maintaining current information
160 2011-04-07 01:34:47 <gjs278> so that bitcoin.org/faq doesn't get outdated because the maintained page is on the wiki
161 2011-04-07 01:36:43 <phantomcircuit> or just throw up a 302
162 2011-04-07 01:36:58 <gjs278> of course
163 2011-04-07 01:37:11 <gjs278> that's what I meant by forwards but yeah
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195 2011-04-07 03:05:41 <Orbixx> ;;bc,blocks
196 2011-04-07 03:05:42 <gribble> 117105
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204 2011-04-07 03:24:00 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,stats
205 2011-04-07 03:24:02 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117106 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1837 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 8 hours, 27 minutes, and 16 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 79133.68758521
206 2011-04-07 03:25:18 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 747870
207 2011-04-07 03:25:20 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 747870 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 9.13484200277 BTC per day and 0.380618416782 BTC per hour.
208 2011-04-07 03:25:29 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 947870
209 2011-04-07 03:25:30 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 947870 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 11.5777376939 BTC per day and 0.482405737248 BTC per hour.
210 2011-04-07 03:25:46 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 1000000
211 2011-04-07 03:25:47 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 12.2144784558 BTC per day and 0.508936602327 BTC per hour.
212 2011-04-07 03:27:22 test12345 has joined
213 2011-04-07 03:27:33 <test12345> ;;bc,gen 10000
214 2011-04-07 03:27:34 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 0.122144784558 BTC per day and 0.00508936602327 BTC per hour.
215 2011-04-07 03:27:38 <test12345> ;;bc,gen 100000
216 2011-04-07 03:27:44 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1.22144784558 BTC per day and 0.0508936602327 BTC per hour.
217 2011-04-07 03:28:41 test12345 has quit (Client Quit)
218 2011-04-07 03:29:06 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,prob 947870 4d
219 2011-04-07 03:29:07 <gribble> 0.603951664374
220 2011-04-07 03:29:15 <EPiSKiNG> wow
221 2011-04-07 03:35:36 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calc 947870
222 2011-04-07 03:35:37 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 947870 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes, and 49 seconds
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230 2011-04-07 03:53:24 <isilion> hi there
231 2011-04-07 03:53:41 <isilion> is very difficult to mantain a pool?
232 2011-04-07 03:53:46 <isilion> and create it?
233 2011-04-07 03:54:49 <isilion> Pirate Party - ES is interested. Spanish law admits at last that whe have our own golden river
234 2011-04-07 03:54:59 <isilion> that we can*
235 2011-04-07 03:58:30 toffoo has joined
236 2011-04-07 04:01:41 <nanotube> isilion: it is pretty easy. just start a bitcoin node, and point people at it. if you want /superduper/ easy, then you could try the private pool service from xf2.org
237 2011-04-07 04:02:58 <isilion> xf2.org have taxes?
238 2011-04-07 04:03:19 <isilion> and we have to make it difficult
239 2011-04-07 04:03:37 <isilion> people who mine MUST have a registered worker
240 2011-04-07 04:04:05 <isilion> we want ppl mine for us
241 2011-04-07 04:04:15 <isilion> most ppl will be our own ppl
242 2011-04-07 04:04:22 <isilion> the ART mail list
243 2011-04-07 04:04:31 <isilion> with powerful graphics
244 2011-04-07 04:04:47 <isilion> and the DIP (informatic dept.) with clusters
245 2011-04-07 04:04:53 <nanotube> yes, you pay xf2 a monthly fee for hosting your private pool.... you can ask jgarzik for more details.
246 2011-04-07 04:04:55 <isilion> we expect 500Mhashes
247 2011-04-07 04:05:16 <luke-jr> isilion: that's nothing
248 2011-04-07 04:05:21 <nanotube> 500mhash is < one ati 5970 card
249 2011-04-07 04:05:24 <isilion> so my calculatios are wrong
250 2011-04-07 04:05:26 <nanotube> are you sure you mean 500mhash?
251 2011-04-07 04:05:39 <isilion> i said that
252 2011-04-07 04:05:42 <isilion> Mhashes
253 2011-04-07 04:06:13 <luke-jr> isilion: a single 5970 can do more than 500 mhash
254 2011-04-07 04:06:48 <isilion> we have more than 40 ppl between 2-40Mhash AFAIK
255 2011-04-07 04:07:00 <isilion> but dunno the media
256 2011-04-07 04:07:33 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
257 2011-04-07 04:07:40 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
258 2011-04-07 04:10:00 <nanotube> isilion: anyway, whatever your total hash rate is... you could either run a private pool, or just join one of the public ones...
259 2011-04-07 04:10:12 <isilion> we need our own pool
260 2011-04-07 04:10:21 <isilion> at name of a nice guy
261 2011-04-07 04:10:25 <isilion> close to the party
262 2011-04-07 04:10:54 Necr0s has joined
263 2011-04-07 04:11:11 <Necr0s> ;;bc,diff
264 2011-04-07 04:11:12 <gribble> 82347.22294654
265 2011-04-07 04:11:13 <isilion> and users MUST be identified
266 2011-04-07 04:11:22 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
267 2011-04-07 04:11:25 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117109 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1834 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 9 hours, 58 minutes, and 8 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 78636.72043502
268 2011-04-07 04:11:25 <isilion> that is a must
269 2011-04-07 04:11:39 <Necr0s> ;;bc,calc 992000
270 2011-04-07 04:11:39 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 992000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4 days, 3 hours, 2 minutes, and 10 seconds
271 2011-04-07 04:11:57 <isilion> i saw poos where you register as a user and then you register miners (workers)
272 2011-04-07 04:12:00 <isilion> for each client
273 2011-04-07 04:12:05 <isilion> we want just that
274 2011-04-07 04:12:10 <LobsterMan> http://mining.bitcoin.cz
275 2011-04-07 04:12:13 <LobsterMan> ^ pool
276 2011-04-07 04:12:15 <isilion> yes
277 2011-04-07 04:12:23 <isilion> we need exactly to copy that model
278 2011-04-07 04:12:29 <LobsterMan> lol
279 2011-04-07 04:12:40 <LobsterMan> slush's pool was the first and i think continues to be the most popular
280 2011-04-07 04:12:57 <isilion> more important thing is
281 2011-04-07 04:13:11 <jgarzik> isilion: https://xf2.org/services/
282 2011-04-07 04:13:14 <isilion> is that "site" free?
283 2011-04-07 04:13:27 <isilion> l(in terms of license and codes)
284 2011-04-07 04:13:36 <LobsterMan> i dont think it is open source
285 2011-04-07 04:14:38 <isilion> i mean the mining.bitcoin.cz
286 2011-04-07 04:14:44 <isilion> i would ask the user also
287 2011-04-07 04:14:50 <LobsterMan> ask slush, it's his site
288 2011-04-07 04:14:56 <isilion> i ask here if you know
289 2011-04-07 04:14:56 <isilion> ok
290 2011-04-07 04:15:17 <isilion> ill keep an eye on him
291 2011-04-07 04:16:12 <isilion> man its great
292 2011-04-07 04:16:27 <isilion> Pirate accepts BTC donations alas!
293 2011-04-07 04:16:40 <isilion> PiratA :P
294 2011-04-07 04:17:01 <isilion> no more coins in the limbo!!
295 2011-04-07 04:19:34 <nanotube> isilion: i don't think slush's pool is open source.
296 2011-04-07 04:20:04 <isilion> perhaps we can talk
297 2011-04-07 04:20:06 llama has left ()
298 2011-04-07 04:20:16 <isilion> i just need how it works exactly
299 2011-04-07 04:20:33 <isilion> and perhaps he is good inttended :)
300 2011-04-07 04:20:59 <nanotube> indeed, just stick around, slush will wake up eventually, isilion :)
301 2011-04-07 04:21:13 <isilion> ill just send him a PM with my email (cya slush slush1 :·)
302 2011-04-07 04:21:22 <isilion> nah its late
303 2011-04-07 04:21:31 <isilion> im dizzy
304 2011-04-07 04:22:04 <isilion> we have plenty of infrastructure inoperative :(
305 2011-04-07 04:27:30 <toffoo> anyone know what happened to the links for the bitcoin.org website translated in other languages?
306 2011-04-07 04:29:25 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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315 2011-04-07 04:45:33 <Kiba> I required cadle
316 2011-04-07 04:45:35 <Kiba> err
317 2011-04-07 04:45:36 <Kiba> cradle
318 2011-04-07 04:45:39 <Kiba> but it said it's undefined
319 2011-04-07 04:45:50 <Kiba> https://gist.github.com/907055
320 2011-04-07 04:45:57 <nanotube> toffoo: bitcoin.org/index.php
321 2011-04-07 04:46:30 <toffoo> perfect, many thanks
322 2011-04-07 04:46:57 <nanotube> np :)
323 2011-04-07 04:47:01 <Kiba> oops
324 2011-04-07 04:47:02 <Kiba> wrong place
325 2011-04-07 04:50:34 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
326 2011-04-07 05:06:43 motoki has joined
327 2011-04-07 05:07:31 <motoki> helhello there
328 2011-04-07 05:08:14 motoki has quit (Client Quit)
329 2011-04-07 05:08:41 redengin has joined
330 2011-04-07 05:09:20 skeledrew1 has joined
331 2011-04-07 05:10:44 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
332 2011-04-07 05:11:48 sabalaba has joined
333 2011-04-07 05:12:44 redengin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
334 2011-04-07 05:13:43 <gjs278> may not dns resolve right now, and I have to add a good spot for languages, but this is my idea for the redesign http://beta.garyshood.com/
335 2011-04-07 05:13:48 <gjs278> if you don'
336 2011-04-07 05:13:55 redengin has joined
337 2011-04-07 05:13:56 <gjs278> t get a bitcoin page, then the dns is still going for it for you
338 2011-04-07 05:14:35 <gjs278> http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/6984/screenshotzj.png is a screenshot of the layout for those that cannot see it
339 2011-04-07 05:15:22 <gjs278> I've also done a huge cleanup of the code to validate it and split into appropriate files where necessary
340 2011-04-07 05:15:55 wolfspraul has joined
341 2011-04-07 05:16:48 <gjs278> the site should be crossbrowser down to ie6
342 2011-04-07 05:17:44 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
343 2011-04-07 05:18:29 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
344 2011-04-07 05:18:29 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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349 2011-04-07 05:35:28 Bosma has quit (Quit: Bosma)
350 2011-04-07 05:39:19 retinal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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356 2011-04-07 05:49:45 hozer has joined
357 2011-04-07 05:56:29 <witten> what version of boost is required to build bitcoin?
358 2011-04-07 05:56:53 <Kiba> witten: you're on archlinux or something?
359 2011-04-07 05:56:59 <witten> debian
360 2011-04-07 05:57:50 <Kiba> linking to 1.46 is impossible it seems
361 2011-04-07 05:58:04 <dermoth> home!~thomas@169-79.162.dsl.aei.ca|;;bc,calc 22877.12
362 2011-04-07 05:58:07 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 22877.12 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 25 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 25 minutes, and 28 seconds
363 2011-04-07 05:58:15 <witten> Kiba: what version is possible? :)
364 2011-04-07 05:59:02 <slush1> isilion: hi, I just wake up, but I'm hurry
365 2011-04-07 05:59:16 <slush1> isilion: long history here, please write me to info@bitcoin.cz, thanks
366 2011-04-07 05:59:41 <dermoth> home!~thomas@169-79.162.dsl.aei.ca|;;bc,gen 160000
367 2011-04-07 05:59:42 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 160000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1.95431655294 BTC per day and 0.0814298563723 BTC per hour.
368 2011-04-07 05:59:49 xvilka has joined
369 2011-04-07 06:00:08 <xvilka> hi! who working on QBitcoin https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/QBitcoin ?
370 2011-04-07 06:00:46 <Kiba> MagicalTux
371 2011-04-07 06:00:47 <MagicalTux> me
372 2011-04-07 06:01:13 <Kiba> MagicalTux: it seems that the domain transfer for kibabase.com is not initialized yet
373 2011-04-07 06:01:15 <MagicalTux> well, I did until I had to start handling mtgox, which made qbitcoin late, and then some earthquake came up to make me even more late :(
374 2011-04-07 06:01:23 <MagicalTux> Kiba, did you confirm the mail that was sent to you ?
375 2011-04-07 06:01:33 <Kiba> oh!
376 2011-04-07 06:01:46 <MagicalTux> from "icann-transfers"
377 2011-04-07 06:02:05 <MagicalTux> send you a msg in private
378 2011-04-07 06:02:39 <xvilka> MagicalTux: i want to help
379 2011-04-07 06:03:40 <xvilka> ah. you talking not about QBitcoin
380 2011-04-07 06:03:44 <xvilka> :(
381 2011-04-07 06:04:07 <MagicalTux> xvilka, I'm talking about QBitcoin
382 2011-04-07 06:04:13 <MagicalTux> unfortunately right now the project is "on hold"
383 2011-04-07 06:04:23 <MagicalTux> until I finish all I have to do with mtgox
384 2011-04-07 06:06:33 ForceDestroyer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
385 2011-04-07 06:07:02 <xvilka> ah. hint me when you want to start
386 2011-04-07 06:07:07 ForceDestroyer has joined
387 2011-04-07 06:07:22 <xvilka> i can help developing project
388 2011-04-07 06:07:33 <xvilka> i'm dont like wxWidgets, really
389 2011-04-07 06:10:00 <isilion> thanks slush
390 2011-04-07 06:10:15 <isilion> tnx slush1
391 2011-04-07 06:10:56 <xvilka> MagicalTux: if you interested about my code exp. - see coreboot, droid-developers.org.
392 2011-04-07 06:12:06 <MagicalTux> mh
393 2011-04-07 06:12:41 <witten> EXCEPTION: 22DbRunRecoveryException
394 2011-04-07 06:12:46 <witten> that can't be good
395 2011-04-07 06:13:46 <MagicalTux> witten, bad version of db?
396 2011-04-07 06:13:48 <Diablo-D3> sounds like you compiled with the wrong version of db
397 2011-04-07 06:13:52 <MagicalTux> bdb
398 2011-04-07 06:14:00 <witten> MagicalTux: possibly
399 2011-04-07 06:14:10 <witten> what version should I be compiling with?
400 2011-04-07 06:14:17 <Diablo-D3> 4.7 only.
401 2011-04-07 06:14:22 <MagicalTux> 4.7 or 4.8
402 2011-04-07 06:14:26 <witten> ok :)
403 2011-04-07 06:14:28 <Diablo-D3> NOT 4.8.
404 2011-04-07 06:14:28 <MagicalTux> just make sure to keep the same version
405 2011-04-07 06:14:31 <Diablo-D3> do not use 4.8
406 2011-04-07 06:14:37 <MagicalTux> Diablo-D3, I compile with 4.8 without problems :D
407 2011-04-07 06:14:46 <Diablo-D3> MagicalTux: your files wont work in the standard client.
408 2011-04-07 06:14:51 <MagicalTux> yes, I know
409 2011-04-07 06:14:53 <MagicalTux> and I don't use it anyway
410 2011-04-07 06:14:59 <jgarzik> that's the most important thing -- keep the same version of db
411 2011-04-07 06:15:10 * jgarzik uses libdb-5.0
412 2011-04-07 06:15:14 <witten> looks like I built with 4.6, so that'd explain it
413 2011-04-07 06:15:15 <MagicalTux> anyway 4.7 is best
414 2011-04-07 06:15:24 <jgarzik> data format-wise, db should be upwards compatible
415 2011-04-07 06:15:43 <MagicalTux> it's the "official" choice, and probably the only supported one
416 2011-04-07 06:15:46 skeledrew has joined
417 2011-04-07 06:15:48 <MagicalTux> if you do not use 4.7, you won't get support :p
418 2011-04-07 06:16:50 <Diablo-D3> its upwards compatible
419 2011-04-07 06:16:54 <Diablo-D3> but not downwards
420 2011-04-07 06:16:58 <witten> so the wallet is bdb?
421 2011-04-07 06:17:01 <Diablo-D3> and merely loading the file in a new bdb upgrades it
422 2011-04-07 06:18:09 <MagicalTux> witten, yes, it's bdb
423 2011-04-07 06:18:13 <witten> ok thanks
424 2011-04-07 06:18:59 <witten> it seems like dependency version information should be in a README/INSTALL file
425 2011-04-07 06:20:05 <witten> oh n/m, I found build-unix.txt
426 2011-04-07 06:20:46 <MagicalTux> :D
427 2011-04-07 06:21:00 <MagicalTux> good ol' RTFM
428 2011-04-07 06:21:33 <witten> looked for uppercase filenames and didn't find any.. assumed there were no docs :)
429 2011-04-07 06:21:43 <Diablo-D3> yes, satoshi is a windows faggot.
430 2011-04-07 06:22:07 <jgarzik> maybe we need a README.LOWERCASE
431 2011-04-07 06:22:31 <isilion> WHY SHOULD WE NEED SUCH A THING!!!???
432 2011-04-07 06:22:43 <Diablo-D3> you know what the most disgusting thing windows users do?
433 2011-04-07 06:22:48 <Diablo-D3> they end text files in .txt
434 2011-04-07 06:23:40 <[Tycho]> :)
435 2011-04-07 06:23:51 <isilion> :P
436 2011-04-07 06:24:13 <witten> yay I finally got it built and running
437 2011-04-07 06:24:22 <isilion> lowercase have connotative meanings
438 2011-04-07 06:24:25 <witten> Diablo-D3: text files full of DOS newlines
439 2011-04-07 06:24:29 <isilion> *bad* ones
440 2011-04-07 06:24:48 <isilion> imagine someday
441 2011-04-07 06:24:56 <isilion> someone ilegalize the coin
442 2011-04-07 06:25:00 <Diablo-D3> witten: at least I can fix that
443 2011-04-07 06:25:02 <Diablo-D3> perl++
444 2011-04-07 06:25:20 <gjs278> you use perl to remove dos newlines instead of dos2unix?
445 2011-04-07 06:25:25 * Diablo-D3 renames witten to wittenfeld
446 2011-04-07 06:25:35 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: dos2unix is written in perl
447 2011-04-07 06:25:39 <witten> heh
448 2011-04-07 06:25:44 <gjs278> mined blown
449 2011-04-07 06:25:53 <gjs278> not mine
450 2011-04-07 06:26:07 <[Tycho]> gjs278, works fine in IE6, but the lower part starting at "Bitcoin Project 2009-2011" seems to have default background color instead of white.
451 2011-04-07 06:26:17 <gjs278> yeah
452 2011-04-07 06:26:23 <gjs278> that's the transparent png error
453 2011-04-07 06:26:26 <gjs278> there's a js file to fix that actually
454 2011-04-07 06:26:33 <[Tycho]> Where is png ?
455 2011-04-07 06:27:28 <gjs278> the top logo has the slightly gray background on the logo for ie6
456 2011-04-07 06:27:44 <[Tycho]> No, i'm talking about the bottom.
457 2011-04-07 06:27:54 <gjs278> oh ok
458 2011-04-07 06:28:02 <[Tycho]> http://tr00.ru/site.png
459 2011-04-07 06:28:18 <gjs278> hmm
460 2011-04-07 06:28:33 <idnar> bah, screw IE6
461 2011-04-07 06:28:38 <gjs278> I can respect a guy who still has ie6 installed
462 2011-04-07 06:28:48 <[Tycho]> No, it's not the problem of IE6.
463 2011-04-07 06:28:48 <idnar> it's not worth chasing pixels for IE6
464 2011-04-07 06:29:09 <Diablo-D3> ie6 isnt even used anymore
465 2011-04-07 06:29:10 <gjs278> that's weird, my 6 doesnt have that
466 2011-04-07 06:29:20 <[Tycho]> It's just default background color that's NOT guaranted to be white.
467 2011-04-07 06:29:28 <gjs278> http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/576/screenshotwac.png
468 2011-04-07 06:29:29 <gjs278> yeah
469 2011-04-07 06:29:42 <Diablo-D3> er
470 2011-04-07 06:29:42 <[Tycho]> If someone uses colorful windows scheme will have different color there.
471 2011-04-07 06:29:47 <Diablo-D3> why is there a png background there anyhow?
472 2011-04-07 06:29:55 <gjs278> nah, not at the bottom
473 2011-04-07 06:29:59 <gjs278> I thought thats what he was talking about
474 2011-04-07 06:30:08 <Diablo-D3> there should be no images on that page at all
475 2011-04-07 06:30:14 <gjs278> yeah there arent any
476 2011-04-07 06:30:36 <idnar> oh right, the stylesheet sets color on body, but not background-color
477 2011-04-07 06:30:38 <idnar> fail
478 2011-04-07 06:30:50 <gjs278> [Tycho] check now
479 2011-04-07 06:31:00 <[Tycho]> Fixed now.
480 2011-04-07 06:31:03 <gjs278> ok
481 2011-04-07 06:31:09 tea has joined
482 2011-04-07 06:31:10 slush1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
483 2011-04-07 06:31:13 <gjs278> I have to fix the logo background and thats it then for 6 I believe
484 2011-04-07 06:31:42 <[Tycho]> I don't have JS enabled but i believe that it works :)
485 2011-04-07 06:32:00 <gjs278> the only js was that twitter feed
486 2011-04-07 06:32:20 <gjs278> it got nuked into oblivion for constantly making it look like the page was loading
487 2011-04-07 06:32:40 <[Tycho]> The PNG fixer.
488 2011-04-07 06:32:59 <gjs278> oh yeah, the png fixer is js
489 2011-04-07 06:33:08 <gjs278> will be at least once I find the one I use
490 2011-04-07 06:35:48 <gjs278> okay, that's in now
491 2011-04-07 06:38:30 antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
492 2011-04-07 06:41:14 <gjs278> language links added
493 2011-04-07 06:44:38 <witten> what's a good feature / bug / area of the codebase for a new dev to start on?
494 2011-04-07 06:44:51 <witten> I'm looking through the issues on github right now
495 2011-04-07 06:46:53 <gjs278> let people have an option to where their wallet is located
496 2011-04-07 06:47:07 <gjs278> so it can be /tmp/wallet.dat instead of ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat if they want it there
497 2011-04-07 06:47:19 stamit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
498 2011-04-07 06:47:41 <witten> gjs278: I think I saw a ticket for that..
499 2011-04-07 06:48:04 <gjs278> could be cool
500 2011-04-07 06:48:11 <witten> #68
501 2011-04-07 06:48:19 <gjs278> people could put them in their dropboxes then and not have to worry about backing them up all of the time
502 2011-04-07 06:48:30 <gjs278> although they should back it up somewhere else as well for safe keeping of course
503 2011-04-07 06:48:51 <idnar> gjs278: is the file updated atomically?
504 2011-04-07 06:49:14 <witten> idnar: according to the comments in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues#issue/68 it's not
505 2011-04-07 06:50:03 <idnar> ah, guess gavin is ahead of me :)
506 2011-04-07 06:50:50 remanifest has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
507 2011-04-07 06:51:18 <witten> why would you need to specify a wallet location if you can already specify a -datadir?
508 2011-04-07 06:52:42 kisom_dev has joined
509 2011-04-07 06:53:07 <gjs278> who knows
510 2011-04-07 06:53:08 kisom_dev is now known as Guest11759
511 2011-04-07 06:53:15 <gjs278> someone somewhere will want to do it though
512 2011-04-07 06:53:30 <gjs278> maybe so they don't have to copy the block chain
513 2011-04-07 06:53:33 <JFK911> yeah
514 2011-04-07 06:53:37 <JFK911> i keep my wallet on the internet
515 2011-04-07 06:53:49 <JFK911> so i can reach it from anywhere
516 2011-04-07 06:55:14 <witten> JFK911: but then why not keep your whole datadir on the internet?
517 2011-04-07 06:55:43 <witten> I guess I don't know what all is kept in there
518 2011-04-07 06:55:47 <gjs278> because you'd have to read that blockchain
519 2011-04-07 06:55:48 <JFK911> thats a waste of bandwitdh. the block chain doesnt need to be there.
520 2011-04-07 06:55:50 <gjs278> and the blockchain is huge
521 2011-04-07 06:56:13 <witten> ah ok
522 2011-04-07 06:56:15 <gjs278> not sure how smart dropbox would be, it might decide it needs to download all 110mb of it or something stupid
523 2011-04-07 06:56:17 <JFK911> anyone will give you the block chain, you just have to wait a little for it
524 2011-04-07 06:57:10 <witten> naive question.. if we've got this distributed P2P network, why does the entire block chain have to be stored on each node?
525 2011-04-07 06:57:20 <JFK911> for his own reference
526 2011-04-07 06:57:43 <JFK911> and: it helps persistence
527 2011-04-07 06:57:46 <witten> is it too slow to query the network and cache as needed?
528 2011-04-07 06:57:57 <gjs278> the blockchain is the cache
529 2011-04-07 06:58:07 <gjs278> apparently you need all of it
530 2011-04-07 06:58:08 <JFK911> the more copies of the real blocks that are out there that everyone agree on, the safer your past transactions are
531 2011-04-07 06:58:31 <JFK911> because to override the blockchain the fake blockchain has to have more copies floating around
532 2011-04-07 06:58:43 <JFK911> that wasn't very articulate, sorry.
533 2011-04-07 06:58:46 <gjs278> witten, to ruin all of your fun, all you have to do is mess with init.cpp to add the option, and then look in util.cpp for string GetConfigFile() and copy that to make your getwallet
534 2011-04-07 06:58:51 <witten> I'm just thinking about mobile devices that won't want to store a couple of hundred megs.. I'm sure this has been discussed on the forums
535 2011-04-07 06:59:18 <witten> JFK911: I get what you're saying
536 2011-04-07 06:59:20 <gjs278> and then write it to be safe and check for the lock file or whatever they're talking about on the issue page
537 2011-04-07 06:59:20 <witten> gjs278: thanks :)
538 2011-04-07 06:59:34 <JFK911> im not sure a mobile device will have as much power to process the crypto
539 2011-04-07 06:59:59 <JFK911> a node in the network needs to do work from time to time to support it
540 2011-04-07 07:01:43 tea has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
541 2011-04-07 07:02:18 <idnar> JFK911: doing a little crypto is fine, downloading and verifying the entire block chain is another thing altogether
542 2011-04-07 07:02:57 <JFK911> verifying new blocks or whatever it does
543 2011-04-07 07:03:05 <gjs278> that's like 1/20th of someone's at&t data plan
544 2011-04-07 07:03:21 <JFK911> and if the device loses connectivity, it has to catch up on blocks
545 2011-04-07 07:03:43 <JFK911> so it's probably better to have a remote control bitcoin client operating on some machinery in a fixed location
546 2011-04-07 07:04:33 <theorbtwo> Aye. Talk to your backend server, which is on a real machine, using the JSON API over SSL.
547 2011-04-07 07:04:57 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
548 2011-04-07 07:05:21 <theorbtwo> Preferably SSL with well-known certificates. Closer to the ssh model then the https model.
549 2011-04-07 07:05:31 <idnar> or just use ssh :)
550 2011-04-07 07:05:51 <JFK911> Anyway I've only seen people laundering money and selling drugs with bitcoins, and those are things you can do from home anyway.
551 2011-04-07 07:05:57 <idnar> hahaha
552 2011-04-07 07:07:46 twobitcoins__ has joined
553 2011-04-07 07:07:59 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
554 2011-04-07 07:11:00 TheAncientGoat has joined
555 2011-04-07 07:13:56 <theorbtwo> Somewhat more seriously, accepting bitcoin without waiting for at lest one confirmation seems like a bad idea, which limits the viability of mobile transactions.
556 2011-04-07 07:14:27 <gjs278> it doesnt take that long
557 2011-04-07 07:14:37 <theorbtwo> gjs278: Ten minutes, for the first one.
558 2011-04-07 07:14:54 <gjs278> imagine how long it took to check credit cards in the 1800's
559 2011-04-07 07:15:05 <gjs278> they had to fly the number all the way to the card company and back
560 2011-04-07 07:15:12 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
561 2011-04-07 07:15:45 <theorbtwo> If I go to the counter and buy a cup of coffee, I don't want to wait ten minutes for the next block to be generated before they make it.
562 2011-04-07 07:16:13 <theorbtwo> gjs278: In the 90s, the done thing was to take a carbon copy of the card, which was then shipped to the card processor by mail.
563 2011-04-07 07:16:30 <theorbtwo> However, as soon as you took a carbon copy of a valid card, the processor would pay you.
564 2011-04-07 07:16:57 <theorbtwo> If the card holder had the money was between the bank and the cardholder, and didn't involve you.
565 2011-04-07 07:17:12 <JFK911> heh, i used to manually do card billing for a lame ISP.
566 2011-04-07 07:17:17 <JFK911> I don't think we ever sent the charge slips off.
567 2011-04-07 07:17:28 <JFK911> But every single one had to have one filled out and called in
568 2011-04-07 07:21:29 <gjs278> theorbtwo: if I ever buy coffee with bitcoins I'll hit myself and just wake up from the dream
569 2011-04-07 07:21:43 <gjs278> fuck waiting 10 minutes
570 2011-04-07 07:22:47 taco_the_paco has joined
571 2011-04-07 07:24:43 <jgarzik> theorbtwo: see "snack machine thread"
572 2011-04-07 07:24:56 <jgarzik> theorbtwo: for small amounts, you should not have to wait 10 minutes
573 2011-04-07 07:26:01 <gjs278> jgarzik http://www.bitcoin.org/ or http://beta.garyshood.com/ your vote is final
574 2011-04-07 07:28:33 <jgarzik> gjs278: bitcoin.org. I don't like the way a big block of little text is followed by two columns of larger text, then smaller text again, on garyshood.com. Makes it seem fat in the middle.
575 2011-04-07 07:28:42 zenfoo has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
576 2011-04-07 07:29:14 <Kiba> do work do work do work until asleep!
577 2011-04-07 07:30:04 <[Tycho]> Oh, it's not two columns already...
578 2011-04-07 07:30:16 <gjs278> okay, I made it smaller now
579 2011-04-07 07:30:27 <gjs278> back to 640 width
580 2011-04-07 07:31:59 <gjs278> jgarzik: recheck me
581 2011-04-07 07:32:25 <gjs278> also unbolded
582 2011-04-07 07:35:24 <gjs278> made it all consistent now
583 2011-04-07 07:38:12 taco_the_paco has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
584 2011-04-07 07:39:18 <gjs278> actually 800 looks better I think
585 2011-04-07 07:39:21 taco_the_paco has joined
586 2011-04-07 07:39:22 <gjs278> but I made all of the fonts the same size
587 2011-04-07 07:39:34 <jgarzik> gjs278: now I like your version better
588 2011-04-07 07:39:38 <gjs278> ok
589 2011-04-07 07:40:28 <jgarzik> gjs278: unfortunately, the other page does have a high value of "me click big video window yum"
590 2011-04-07 07:40:29 <jgarzik> ;)
591 2011-04-07 07:40:40 <gjs278> yeah I know
592 2011-04-07 07:40:56 <gjs278> I felt like giving that job to http://www.weusecoins.com/
593 2011-04-07 07:43:05 dbitcoin has joined
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607 2011-04-07 08:42:24 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
608 2011-04-07 08:42:30 <gribble> 82347.22294654
609 2011-04-07 08:43:36 aksoo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
610 2011-04-07 08:46:50 sabalaba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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614 2011-04-07 08:51:11 <genjix> someone mentioned before there was a single address with a huge amount of money in it.
615 2011-04-07 08:51:20 <genjix> how much was that sum?
616 2011-04-07 08:51:52 <sipa> 250000 BTC
617 2011-04-07 08:53:18 <genjix> cool
618 2011-04-07 08:53:19 <genjix> http://blockexplorer.com/address/12C9c9VQLMrLi4Ffzq2wDvwrKnUPaAaNFp
619 2011-04-07 08:56:04 <gjs278> the transaction fee ruins it
620 2011-04-07 08:57:05 <genjix> someone sent him 0.01 btc for laughs
621 2011-04-07 08:57:36 <genjix> sipa: this is bigger, http://blockexplorer.com/address/1AYtnRppWM7tWQaVLpm7TvcHKrjKxgCRvX
622 2011-04-07 08:57:39 <genjix> it has 400k
623 2011-04-07 08:57:59 <sipa> genjix: no, it has 0 :)
624 2011-04-07 08:58:12 <genjix> i mean it used to have 400k at one point
625 2011-04-07 08:58:17 PKSAce has joined
626 2011-04-07 08:58:18 <gjs278> stop postng my address pls
627 2011-04-07 08:58:36 <gjs278> I put it all on red... I'm typing this from the library
628 2011-04-07 08:59:08 <genjix> lies, red always wins
629 2011-04-07 09:00:41 Clarence_ has joined
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631 2011-04-07 09:08:24 <PKSAce> genjix, do you have a skype or aim? Looking to get back involved with some bitcoin projects (can't do bitcoinvegas though :< ), and I have some questions.
632 2011-04-07 09:10:19 <genjix> hey PKSAce
633 2011-04-07 09:10:27 <genjix> yeah let me install it
634 2011-04-07 09:10:31 <genjix> zgenjix
635 2011-04-07 09:10:37 <PKSAce> for skype?
636 2011-04-07 09:10:55 <genjix> yep that's my name
637 2011-04-07 09:11:06 <PKSAce> sweet. tia.
638 2011-04-07 09:12:31 kumi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
639 2011-04-07 09:16:28 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
640 2011-04-07 09:18:11 <topi`> genjix: are you still around? i'm recovering from a debilitating illness
641 2011-04-07 09:19:58 <genjix> yeah topi`
642 2011-04-07 09:20:01 <genjix> here for 2 weeks
643 2011-04-07 09:22:08 <topi`> oh!
644 2011-04-07 09:22:15 <topi`> then we need to show you around the places :)
645 2011-04-07 09:24:54 <genjix> sweet
646 2011-04-07 09:26:14 adlsaks has joined
647 2011-04-07 09:26:25 att has joined
648 2011-04-07 09:26:42 <topi`> i still haven't finished my piece on the future of bitcoin, et
649 2011-04-07 09:26:43 <topi`> yet
650 2011-04-07 09:26:51 <topi`> 07/04/2011 11:24:21, 59a9d1f7, accepted
651 2011-04-07 09:26:59 <topi`> i'm just looking at the output of the miner!
652 2011-04-07 09:27:11 <topi`> totally perplexed at the obscure hashes
653 2011-04-07 09:27:54 <att> hello, i am at first use bitcoin and try to run it from console on my server, where I find or set my address?
654 2011-04-07 09:28:11 <genjix> att: bitcoind getaccountaddress ""
655 2011-04-07 09:28:25 <MagicalTux> gah
656 2011-04-07 09:28:38 <genjix> "i just sent bitcoins to japan"
657 2011-04-07 09:28:42 <MagicalTux> genjix, :D
658 2011-04-07 09:28:44 <nathan7> :D
659 2011-04-07 09:28:47 <genjix> "woah" "woah" "soo cool"
660 2011-04-07 09:28:57 <genjix> mumble mumble
661 2011-04-07 09:29:27 <MagicalTux> genjix, all bitcoins received on those will be converted to JPY and sent to the official japanese governement donations bank account
662 2011-04-07 09:30:00 <genjix> why?
663 2011-04-07 09:30:10 <MagicalTux> genjix, because I don't need 0.11 btc anyway
664 2011-04-07 09:30:10 <MagicalTux> xD
665 2011-04-07 09:30:25 <genjix> dont bother yourself
666 2011-04-07 09:30:33 <genjix> or send it to wiki prize
667 2011-04-07 09:30:41 <MagicalTux> I'll transfer that, and more
668 2011-04-07 09:31:01 <att> 2genjix thanks a lot
669 2011-04-07 09:34:25 <mrb__> att: technically, the command given to you *creates* a new address, which is recommended everytime you want to receive payment. to simply get your existing address(es) run: bitcoind getaddressesbyaccount ''
670 2011-04-07 09:35:24 <tcatm> getaccountaddress only creates a new address when a transaction is received
671 2011-04-07 09:36:56 <mrb__> it creates an address and stores the key in wallet.dat
672 2011-04-07 09:37:37 <topi`> remember to back up your wallet.dat after every transaction!
673 2011-04-07 09:38:49 <tcatm> mrb__: nope. only when the address is actually used to receive coins. rpc.cpp:347
674 2011-04-07 09:39:19 <topi`> if slush's pool does not support long polling, how many minutes do I except to "lose out" on crunching already-submitted blocks?
675 2011-04-07 09:39:44 <topi`> at 1.7Mhash/sec, how long does it take to crunch one of those basic blocks of difficulty 1?
676 2011-04-07 09:39:56 <sipa> there are no "basic blocks"
677 2011-04-07 09:39:58 FellowTraveler has joined
678 2011-04-07 09:40:04 <sipa> your client just keeps on trying different hashes
679 2011-04-07 09:40:20 <topi`> yep, but in certain "blocks" nevertheless
680 2011-04-07 09:40:24 <sipa> no
681 2011-04-07 09:40:37 <topi`> because trying out only 1 hash happens in a microsec
682 2011-04-07 09:40:41 <ersi> topi`: Stale work sucks ass
683 2011-04-07 09:40:55 <sipa> topi`: it increments a nonce, and tries the next one
684 2011-04-07 09:41:04 <ersi> It's a waste of your and the networks time :)
685 2011-04-07 09:41:17 <topi`> is there any "bitcoin dictionary" that would define 'nonce' and such odd concepts?
686 2011-04-07 09:41:23 <slush> topi`: with default settings, max 5 second
687 2011-04-07 09:41:28 <sipa> it's explained on the wiki i think
688 2011-04-07 09:41:29 <topi`> slush: thanks
689 2011-04-07 09:41:43 <ersi> "In security engineering, nonce is an abbreviation of number used once (it is similar in spirit to a nonce word)."
690 2011-04-07 09:41:58 <topi`> ok
691 2011-04-07 09:42:06 <sipa> topi`: there are 4 billion nonces to try, so your client definetely needs to ask for new work after 42 minutes in your case
692 2011-04-07 09:42:11 <sipa> topi`: but it does so much more often
693 2011-04-07 09:42:36 <sipa> and every time it asks for new data, it gets a completely new range of hashes to try
694 2011-04-07 09:42:45 <mrb__> tcatm: well it marks the key as "reserved" in the wallet, which is what I meant by "creating" an address
695 2011-04-07 09:42:54 <mrb__> CWalletDB::ReserveKeyFromKeyPool
696 2011-04-07 09:44:07 <topi`> I have just basically kept on Ctrl-c'ing the miner when the pool starts to work on a new block
697 2011-04-07 09:44:11 <topi`> and restarted the miner
698 2011-04-07 09:44:25 <topi`> I wonder if it is necessary at all?
699 2011-04-07 09:44:37 <sipa> topi`: no need
700 2011-04-07 09:44:53 <sipa> it will get new data the next time it asks, which happens every few seconds
701 2011-04-07 09:45:04 <topi`> because every second round (on avg) I get no reward at all, which makes me think it is crunching on a stale block
702 2011-04-07 09:45:14 <sipa> it is
703 2011-04-07 09:46:19 <att> how to check work client correctly or not? I use default config file, open port on firewall
704 2011-04-07 09:47:05 <att> if need I send to chat getinfo answer
705 2011-04-07 09:47:22 <topi`> att: check that the client starts downloading blocks
706 2011-04-07 09:48:23 <att> paramter "blocks" changing
707 2011-04-07 09:48:37 <topi`> good news, it needs to download 117000 blocks
708 2011-04-07 09:48:50 <att> thaks a lot
709 2011-04-07 09:48:56 <att> I am waiting
710 2011-04-07 09:50:28 <topi`> is there any way to make the first download of blocks faster? has there been any analysis on where the time actually goes? bandwidth, latency or other bottleneck?
711 2011-04-07 09:51:05 <topi`> I start to think of latency if the blocks come from afar (say, 8 hops)
712 2011-04-07 09:54:50 <sipa> connect to a fast node for the initial block download
713 2011-04-07 09:55:16 <sipa> you can use mine ("-addnode 178.18.90.41" on the command line)
714 2011-04-07 10:00:21 <UukGoblin> w00t, bitomat added already :-]
715 2011-04-07 10:03:59 m00p has joined
716 2011-04-07 10:06:23 <tcatm> topi`: most time is spent verifying blocks and transactions
717 2011-04-07 10:06:42 <tcatm> my python client that does not verify anything can download the whole chain without a few minutes
718 2011-04-07 10:06:49 <tcatm> within*
719 2011-04-07 10:07:46 Bennt has joined
720 2011-04-07 10:08:15 <genjix> topi`: only download the headers and not the transactions.
721 2011-04-07 10:08:16 <Bennt> hi
722 2011-04-07 10:17:19 Bennt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
723 2011-04-07 10:20:39 jackSmith has joined
724 2011-04-07 10:21:28 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
725 2011-04-07 10:27:07 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rdb97e24bfd2f intersango/DATABASE: new column for bank_statement showing status of parsing. http://tinyurl.com/3rqxqoo
726 2011-04-07 10:27:11 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rc623fbd5abb2 intersango/cron/bankd/parse_deposits.php: skip marked deposit lines. http://tinyurl.com/4ychl56
727 2011-04-07 10:28:02 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 4000
728 2011-04-07 10:28:05 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2 years, 41 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, and 57 seconds
729 2011-04-07 10:30:30 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
730 2011-04-07 10:30:31 <gribble> 84208.80654079
731 2011-04-07 10:35:58 niekie_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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735 2011-04-07 10:39:01 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
736 2011-04-07 10:40:41 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
737 2011-04-07 10:50:13 mrb__ is now known as mrb_
738 2011-04-07 10:52:13 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rac0e3bb40104 intersango/cron/bankd/parse_deposits.php: BUGFIX: transactions dont allow LAST_INSERT_ID() http://tinyurl.com/3lwuzk6
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741 2011-04-07 11:00:54 xelister has joined
742 2011-04-07 11:01:25 <xelister> ----------------------------------
743 2011-04-07 11:01:33 <xelister> REPORT ABOUT NEW bitcoin.org PAGE
744 2011-04-07 11:01:34 <xelister> ----------------------------------
745 2011-04-07 11:01:37 <xelister> 1. it sucks dicks
746 2011-04-07 11:01:46 <xelister> 2. even download is less visible
747 2011-04-07 11:01:47 <xelister> ----------------------------------
748 2011-04-07 11:02:22 <xelister> This appendix ammends yesterdays report that focused on flash video levels of faggotry/geek-coolness (hint: its the former)
749 2011-04-07 11:03:02 <xelister> *click* bitcoin.org
750 2011-04-07 11:03:05 <xelister> *click* Download from SF
751 2011-04-07 11:03:13 <xelister> *redirect*
752 2011-04-07 11:03:26 <xelister> *click* files
753 2011-04-07 11:03:33 <xelister> *click* bitcoin
754 2011-04-07 11:03:44 <xelister> *click* bitcoin-0.3.20
755 2011-04-07 11:03:57 <xelister> found it <3 !
756 2011-04-07 11:04:01 <xelister> *click* bitcoin-0.3.20.2-win32-setup.exe
757 2011-04-07 11:04:09 <xelister> *waiting/redirects*
758 2011-04-07 11:04:16 <xelister> FINALLY THE DOWNLOAD \o/
759 2011-04-07 11:04:17 <idnar> Thank you for choosing #bitcoin-dev. All our operators are currently unavailable; please be patient, your call is valuable to us, and you will be directed to the next operator as soon as they become available.
760 2011-04-07 11:04:19 <xelister> New page is ultimate shit.
761 2011-04-07 11:04:47 * xelister beats up sirius-m with a clue-bat
762 2011-04-07 11:05:06 <idnar> xelister: why can't you just click the main Download link on the SF page, instead of navigating files?
763 2011-04-07 11:05:10 <xelister> it takes as long if I want to get the .exe on linux
764 2011-04-07 11:05:22 <xelister> and SF main page shows me .tgz
765 2011-04-07 11:05:29 <idnar> oh, hmm
766 2011-04-07 11:05:43 <idnar> I wonder if that's fixable
767 2011-04-07 11:05:55 <xelister> ON OLD PAGE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING (DOWNLOAD OF BITCOIN!) WAS x8 FASTER, it took ONE CLICK !!!!
768 2011-04-07 11:06:23 <xelister> just link to latest .exe and .tgz and .bin directly from bitcoin.org/ like in good-old previous page! or restore previous page.
769 2011-04-07 11:06:57 Stellar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
770 2011-04-07 11:07:49 BERRI has quit (Excess Flood)
771 2011-04-07 11:08:46 <BurtyB> hmm yes new website does look a little errr interesting :/
772 2011-04-07 11:09:40 niekie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
773 2011-04-07 11:09:44 idnar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
774 2011-04-07 11:10:21 * nathan7 hops around
775 2011-04-07 11:11:48 niekie has joined
776 2011-04-07 11:11:51 idnar has joined
777 2011-04-07 11:11:58 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
778 2011-04-07 11:11:59 BERRI has joined
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780 2011-04-07 11:12:47 Sthebig has joined
781 2011-04-07 11:16:39 <xelister> sirius-m: thank you for your work, but realllly pleaaaase make it keep the good ideas from old version :)
782 2011-04-07 11:19:06 <sirius-m> xelister: how do you like this: http://beta.garyshood.com/
783 2011-04-07 11:21:05 <sirius-m> the intro text could be shorter but otherwise looks good
784 2011-04-07 11:21:42 stitekili has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
785 2011-04-07 11:22:25 <xelister> sirius-m: better
786 2011-04-07 11:22:28 * BurtyB prefers the beta.garyshood.com version except for the email images
787 2011-04-07 11:23:20 att has quit (Quit: Page closed)
788 2011-04-07 11:25:03 Stellar has joined
789 2011-04-07 11:27:28 [Noodles] has joined
790 2011-04-07 11:32:56 <edcba> i like beta.garyshood.com too
791 2011-04-07 11:33:15 Stellar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
792 2011-04-07 11:33:25 <edcba> but i think it should aways be precised that there will be 21M *divisible* bitcoin
793 2011-04-07 11:34:23 <edcba> hmm bitcoin faucet is empty ?
794 2011-04-07 11:34:35 <edcba> 0.01 ฿TC available
795 2011-04-07 11:35:55 niekie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
796 2011-04-07 11:35:56 idnar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
797 2011-04-07 11:36:01 Sthebig has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
798 2011-04-07 11:37:19 jav has joined
799 2011-04-07 11:37:58 <ForceDestroyer> Nothing happening on the android front?
800 2011-04-07 11:39:19 niekie has joined
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803 2011-04-07 11:41:17 Sthebig has joined
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805 2011-04-07 11:42:32 <jav> hrm, I still don't understand under what conditions I can send unconfirmed coins right away (?) ... sometimes it works, sometimes I get "insufficient fund" error from the RPC interface
806 2011-04-07 11:48:33 <sipa> if they result from a spend-to-self, immediately
807 2011-04-07 11:48:38 <sipa> otherwise after 1 confirmation
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821 2011-04-07 12:00:52 <jav> sipa: but sometimes I can send something from my account at mybitcoin to a local wallet and then send it back right away
822 2011-04-07 12:02:23 <sipa> with 0 confirmations?
823 2011-04-07 12:02:28 <jav> yes
824 2011-04-07 12:02:56 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
825 2011-04-07 12:03:42 niekie has joined
826 2011-04-07 12:03:56 <jav> so getbalance shows zero, getbalance with minconf=0 shows the coins and then sending them using the RPC interface sometimes works
827 2011-04-07 12:06:07 darkskiez has joined
828 2011-04-07 12:06:18 Sthebig has joined
829 2011-04-07 12:06:44 <jav> in any case... I'm working on a simple online wallet service and am trying to decide whether I offer users the option to send 0-confirmation coins or not
830 2011-04-07 12:07:31 <jav> I would really like to, to sort of give an impression of how "speedy" Bitcoin can be... but if that only works some of the time, that's not very reliable
831 2011-04-07 12:08:31 <jav> but maybe I have to play it safe then and wait for a confirmation before allowing the user to send coins
832 2011-04-07 12:09:37 <sipa> offer it as a paying option
833 2011-04-07 12:10:00 <sipa> "For 1% fee, all transactions up to ... are cleared immediately!"
834 2011-04-07 12:13:41 tabsa has joined
835 2011-04-07 12:15:01 <Teppy> Sipa - I'm working on something similar...
836 2011-04-07 12:16:03 <Teppy> What I'm planning to do is make two JSON commands at once - a getreceivedbylabel with 0 confirms and a getreceivedbylabel with 1 confirm
837 2011-04-07 12:16:19 <Teppy> Trying to figure out the syntax for that, if Bitcoin supports multiple calls at once.
838 2011-04-07 12:16:23 <Teppy> Anyone know?
839 2011-04-07 12:17:20 <jav> Teppy: why do you need to make them at once? just do one after the other... or are you worried that for some reason the information will change just in that moment between the two calls?
840 2011-04-07 12:18:05 <Teppy> I want the calls to be atomic.
841 2011-04-07 12:18:33 <Teppy> Performance issue if they're not.
842 2011-04-07 12:18:39 <tcatm> that's not supported
843 2011-04-07 12:19:43 <Teppy> Really? I'm surprised that method isn't pretty much standard. (The 0 conf/1 conf thing.)
844 2011-04-07 12:21:24 m00p has joined
845 2011-04-07 12:22:51 <jav> I tried to modify the source to send out transactions no matter how many confirmations the coins have (tried that by calling SelectCoinsMinConf with nConfTheirs = 0 and nConfMine = 0) ... but that didn't work in all cases either, any idea why not?
846 2011-04-07 12:23:26 <sipa> define "didn't work"
847 2011-04-07 12:23:27 <sipa> ?
848 2011-04-07 12:23:38 <jav> I would sometimes still get the "insufficient funds" error message
849 2011-04-07 12:24:07 <sipa> that means you needed a fee, and didn't have enough to pay it
850 2011-04-07 12:25:30 <jav> ok, how do I hack the client to never try to include a few (except for oversized transactions) ... I just want to get it out there and hope some generous miner with a no-fee policy will pick it up eventually
851 2011-04-07 12:26:50 LtBrenton has joined
852 2011-04-07 12:26:58 <LtBrenton> ;;bc,stats
853 2011-04-07 12:26:59 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117175 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1768 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 23 hours, 47 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 84646.95323124
854 2011-04-07 12:27:20 <LtBrenton> @_@ holy crapnuts
855 2011-04-07 12:27:42 <jav> also, sipa: my understanding from reading the source is that if a fee was required, the error message would say "This is an oversized transaction" regardless of the reason of the fee
856 2011-04-07 12:28:22 <topi`> a lot of mining going on
857 2011-04-07 12:28:27 <sipa> if (nPrice + nFeeRequired > GetBalance())
858 2011-04-07 12:28:27 <sipa> Error(strprintf(_("This is an oversized transaction that requires a transaction fee of %s"), FormatMoney(nFeeRequired).c_str()));
859 2011-04-07 12:28:30 <topi`> or maybe it's the new graphics cards from ATI :)
860 2011-04-07 12:28:58 <jav> sipa: exactly... but I'm getting "Insufficient funds", not "oversized transaction"
861 2011-04-07 12:29:05 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
862 2011-04-07 12:29:34 <sipa> if (nPrice + nTransactionFee > GetBalance())
863 2011-04-07 12:29:34 <sipa> {
864 2011-04-07 12:29:34 <sipa> Error(_("Insufficient funds"));
865 2011-04-07 12:30:51 <jav> sipa: ok, but nTransactionFee is set to zero, isn't it? I didn't change that
866 2011-04-07 12:31:37 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
867 2011-04-07 12:33:02 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/~tcatm/bitcoin.org/ comments?
868 2011-04-07 12:33:12 Sthebig has joined
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872 2011-04-07 12:34:49 darkskiez has joined
873 2011-04-07 12:35:36 <sipa> i would remove the "With the current total CPU power on the network, most CPUs will usually take months between successfully generating 50 BTC."
874 2011-04-07 12:35:52 <sipa> or are you just talking about the design?
875 2011-04-07 12:36:13 <sipa> i like it
876 2011-04-07 12:36:21 <tcatm> only design. I copied the text for now.
877 2011-04-07 12:36:43 <jrabbit> I dont like the stuff on the right
878 2011-04-07 12:37:28 sabalaba has joined
879 2011-04-07 12:37:35 <sipa> it could use some box as well around it
880 2011-04-07 12:38:09 <nathan7> sipa: Look at the email addresses at the bottom
881 2011-04-07 12:38:31 <sipa> those images will be turned into white on black, i suppose
882 2011-04-07 12:38:33 <nathan7> Perhaps make those transparent-background?
883 2011-04-07 12:38:35 <tcatm> It's far from finished.
884 2011-04-07 12:38:50 <tcatm> Just a 15min mock-up.
885 2011-04-07 12:38:53 <nathan7> Mhm
886 2011-04-07 12:39:14 <tcatm> ideally I'd like to use mailto: links
887 2011-04-07 12:39:38 <jrabbit> http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html ahah
888 2011-04-07 12:39:43 <tcatm> I do that on bitcoincharts/watch and gmail is quite good at catching spam.
889 2011-04-07 12:40:11 RPMiSO has joined
890 2011-04-07 12:40:29 <RPMiSO> Hi all
891 2011-04-07 12:41:37 <RPMiSO> Has there been any trouble regarding bitcoins and worms yet?
892 2011-04-07 12:41:47 <nathan7> Nope, are you about to create it?
893 2011-04-07 12:42:11 <RPMiSO> No.
894 2011-04-07 12:42:15 <RPMiSO> It's just an idea I had.
895 2011-04-07 12:42:39 <RPMiSO> If someone created a botnet of bitcoin miners.
896 2011-04-07 12:42:47 <RPMiSO> There's decent money to be made I suppose.
897 2011-04-07 12:42:59 <nathan7> Indeed.
898 2011-04-07 12:43:12 <nathan7> We call those 'botnets' 'pools'.
899 2011-04-07 12:43:31 <nathan7> It's just a matter of spreading the miners
900 2011-04-07 12:43:31 <RPMiSO> Well, I mean an involuntary pool.
901 2011-04-07 12:43:50 <nathan7> And leaving out the complexity of calculating rewards
902 2011-04-07 12:43:54 <sipa> RPMiSO: you see the peak around march 7th here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png ?
903 2011-04-07 12:44:14 <RPMiSO> Yes.
904 2011-04-07 12:44:20 <sipa> we assume that was a botnet
905 2011-04-07 12:44:36 <RPMiSO> How much money do you think the person gained?
906 2011-04-07 12:44:39 <RPMiSO> At a guess?
907 2011-04-07 12:44:50 <sipa> since he sent it all to a single account, it's known :)
908 2011-04-07 12:44:54 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
909 2011-04-07 12:45:01 <RPMiSO> Oh right.
910 2011-04-07 12:45:02 <RPMiSO> How much?
911 2011-04-07 12:46:00 <sipa> http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Ph9zCh3LcoYmEYj3z9MXkRiKuHcNEdY4J
912 2011-04-07 12:46:37 <RPMiSO> Fucking hell.
913 2011-04-07 12:46:40 darkskiez has joined
914 2011-04-07 12:46:43 <RPMiSO> That worked out profitable.
915 2011-04-07 12:46:59 <sipa> depends how much he paid for it
916 2011-04-07 12:47:17 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
917 2011-04-07 12:47:44 <RPMiSO> What do you mean? I'm not well versed on how the whole system works. I just had an idea so I came here to enquire.
918 2011-04-07 12:48:12 <jav> I think what sipa means is, that the person might have rented the botnet
919 2011-04-07 12:48:30 Sthebig has joined
920 2011-04-07 12:48:48 JaredW has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
921 2011-04-07 12:48:58 <RPMiSO> Ahhh right.
922 2011-04-07 12:49:12 JaredW has joined
923 2011-04-07 12:49:12 m00p has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
924 2011-04-07 12:49:44 <RPMiSO> I wouldn't be suprised to see a bot with the capabilities built in the future.
925 2011-04-07 12:49:55 <RPMiSO> What effect will this have on the system?
926 2011-04-07 12:50:47 <jav> if it does normal mining, which I think is mostly likely, it strengthen the network :-) .. just sucks for other miners, because the botnet doesn't pay for electricity, so isn't competing on equal terms
927 2011-04-07 12:51:29 <topi`> it's like mining gold when done by individuals vs. when being done with slaves
928 2011-04-07 12:51:45 <topi`> i'm a white man and I command 1000 slaves that do the gold mining for me, but I collect all the results
929 2011-04-07 12:51:48 <topi`> it's comparable :)
930 2011-04-07 12:51:58 <jav> yeah, good analogy
931 2011-04-07 12:53:21 <nathan7> except slaves need food too
932 2011-04-07 12:54:14 <RPMiSO> It seems like the most 'ethical' way of using a botnet for monetary gain.
933 2011-04-07 12:54:31 <RPMiSO> As far as I can tell quite risk free too.
934 2011-04-07 12:54:49 <RPMiSO> How many machines were involved in March spike? Any ideas?
935 2011-04-07 12:56:21 <jav> regarding risk free: I wonder if owners of affected machines would notice something is wrong more quickly.. because their machine is running unusually hot or something
936 2011-04-07 12:56:49 <topi`> their machines will run unusually hot even while playing flash games :D
937 2011-04-07 12:56:55 <ForceDestroyer> Isn't that the obvious reason it stopped?
938 2011-04-07 12:56:59 <topi`> or running some mindboggingly meaningless flash ads
939 2011-04-07 12:57:49 <RPMiSO> The owners of the affected machines aren't the sort of users to keep an eye of cpu/gpu temps.
940 2011-04-07 12:57:54 <sipa> RPMiSO: if those were CPU miners... a few hundred thousand
941 2011-04-07 12:57:57 <RPMiSO> They've managed to get a worm after all.
942 2011-04-07 12:58:09 <[Tycho]> Big botnet was shut down about that time by MS
943 2011-04-07 12:58:27 <RPMiSO> It's very impressive.
944 2011-04-07 12:58:30 <ForceDestroyer> I managed to get worms too *shrugs*... back when I thought something wasn't a worm if three scanners said it wasn't :P
945 2011-04-07 12:59:20 <ForceDestroyer> Well... I knew better the moment I saw it had been code obfuscated and the idiot who did it had his license for the obfuscator run out
946 2011-04-07 12:59:21 <RPMiSO> [Tycho], do you have a link for that?
947 2011-04-07 13:00:16 <ForceDestroyer> But, oh well, if people don't care what runs on their PCs, it might aswell be a BTC miner. â(ï¿£ã¼ï¿£)â
948 2011-04-07 13:00:54 <ForceDestroyer> I'm more afraid of what happens to BitCoin when the first large theft operations happen on botnets
949 2011-04-07 13:01:15 <[Tycho]> http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2011/03/18/taking-down-botnets-microsoft-and-the-rustock-botnet.aspx
950 2011-04-07 13:09:23 jav has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
951 2011-04-07 13:11:04 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
952 2011-04-07 13:11:22 molecular has joined
953 2011-04-07 13:11:35 Stellar has joined
954 2011-04-07 13:11:39 Stellar has quit (Changing host)
955 2011-04-07 13:11:39 Stellar has joined
956 2011-04-07 13:11:54 <topi`> Rustock has been reported to be among the worldâs largest spambots, at times capable of sending 30 billion spam e-mails per day. DCU researchers watched a single Rustock-infected computer send 7,500 spam emails in just 45 minutes
957 2011-04-07 13:12:12 <topi`> 30000 M spams... that's just a huge waste of good CPU time and network bandwidth :/
958 2011-04-07 13:12:40 DrQ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
959 2011-04-07 13:12:46 <topi`> somebody questioned the "uselessness" of CPU cycles that go down to mine bitcoins, but I think there are *far* more useless ways to spend CPU cycles
960 2011-04-07 13:13:32 <Diablo-D3> dude
961 2011-04-07 13:13:34 <nathan7> indeed
962 2011-04-07 13:13:38 <Diablo-D3> are we curing cancer?
963 2011-04-07 13:13:39 <Diablo-D3> or aids?
964 2011-04-07 13:13:45 <Diablo-D3> or the Republican party?
965 2011-04-07 13:13:46 jj`` has joined
966 2011-04-07 13:13:50 <Diablo-D3> the cycles are wasted.
967 2011-04-07 13:14:07 <sipa> printing dollar bills costs energy as well
968 2011-04-07 13:14:14 <topi`> well, the CPU cycles are the price that needs to be paid for an anonymous, distributed currency
969 2011-04-07 13:14:27 <topi`> sipa: energy *and* resources
970 2011-04-07 13:15:18 <sipa> furthermore, the amount of energy spent in bitcoin mining in an economically viable way, is limited by the price of bitcoins
971 2011-04-07 13:18:26 <topi`> there should be some statistics created from the kWh usage patterns of typical CPU and GPU hardware
972 2011-04-07 13:18:36 <nathan7> Hmm
973 2011-04-07 13:18:50 <topi`> I mean, to see what kind of differences there are between different hw options for the kWh/btc ratio
974 2011-04-07 13:18:59 <topi`> or rather, btc/kWh
975 2011-04-07 13:19:04 <nathan7> I once had 700 bitcoins, then I had US$47.37
976 2011-04-07 13:19:08 <nathan7> I should've saved them
977 2011-04-07 13:19:18 <BurtyB> topi` its listed in the wiki
978 2011-04-07 13:19:36 <topi`> nathan7: there's always plenty of wisdom in the aftersight ;)
979 2011-04-07 13:20:03 <nathan7> topi`: indeed, I got quite a bit of goodies out of them though
980 2011-04-07 13:20:05 <topi`> that's still plenty more bitcoins than I can *ever* mine, because you started early, and I just came in
981 2011-04-07 13:20:39 <topi`> and, my hardware is unsuitable for mining anyway (I live as a nomad, so no permanent residence, so no desktops)
982 2011-04-07 13:20:44 <nathan7> Mhm
983 2011-04-07 13:21:06 <topi`> but then again, Bitcoin as a system *can't* be totally fair to everyone.
984 2011-04-07 13:21:09 <topi`> no system is perfect
985 2011-04-07 13:21:47 <topi`> i'm not complaining, I'm still an early adopter ;) I expect there will be some "normal" ppl participating eventually, if we just know how to market the thing.
986 2011-04-07 13:24:17 <xelister> watching 'funny' YT clips may be more CPU wastefull
987 2011-04-07 13:24:25 <xelister> or heaving 10 flash ads in background
988 2011-04-07 13:24:46 <[Tycho]> ...or using Firefox :)
989 2011-04-07 13:26:05 <xelister> or being windowsnoob without adblock :P
990 2011-04-07 13:26:14 grondilu has joined
991 2011-04-07 13:26:33 <xelister> well to be fair, firefox is not burning cpu. It may be holding lots of ram (before version 4.0)
992 2011-04-07 13:27:05 <topi`> why is it that none of the NVIDIA gpu's seem to approach the performance of ATI 5 series gpu's in mining?
993 2011-04-07 13:27:26 <xelister> topi`: NVidia sucks in hardware design, Ati sucks in drivers design
994 2011-04-07 13:27:33 <topi`> lol
995 2011-04-07 13:27:38 <xelister> they should make Ati cards with nvidia drivers, that would rock
996 2011-04-07 13:27:45 grondilu has quit (Client Quit)
997 2011-04-07 13:27:59 <xelister> Ati Nvidion
998 2011-04-07 13:28:19 <xelister> Atia Nvidion 5970 GTX
999 2011-04-07 13:28:20 <topi`> even a cheapass 6850 gives almost 200 Mhash/sec
1000 2011-04-07 13:28:40 <xelister> ;; sell 1 "Atia Nvidion 5970 GTX" 1000 btc
1001 2011-04-07 13:28:41 <topi`> crazy
1002 2011-04-07 13:28:41 <gribble> Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the order book.
1003 2011-04-07 13:28:53 <jrabbit> hahaha
1004 2011-04-07 13:29:04 <xelister> =)
1005 2011-04-07 13:30:19 <tcatm> some updates... http://bitcoincharts.com/~tcatm/bitcoin.org/
1006 2011-04-07 13:30:43 <sipa> topi`: nvidia chips are better for doing many different things at once, ati is better for doing many times the same thing at once :)
1007 2011-04-07 13:30:51 <sipa> and nvidia sucks for integer operations
1008 2011-04-07 13:30:51 grondilu has joined
1009 2011-04-07 13:31:47 <grondilu> is barwench around sometimes ?
1010 2011-04-07 13:32:15 <grondilu> oh forget it, it's a chan name, not a user name
1011 2011-04-07 13:32:17 <topi`> sipa: so I should get an ati.
1012 2011-04-07 13:32:21 <genjix> tcatm: i've been dropped from bitcoincharts
1013 2011-04-07 13:32:25 <mahadri> topi`: On nVidia GPUs, rotates are assembled as 2 shifts and a logical or. ATI's GPUs have native rotate instructions. There are lots of rotations in SHA256.
1014 2011-04-07 13:32:57 <topi`> mahadri: yeah :) In my active youth, I optimized some assembly code for powerpc for calculating RC5 ...
1015 2011-04-07 13:33:16 <topi`> lots of rotates, but the powerpc is well equipped to handle those:)
1016 2011-04-07 13:33:52 <Diablo-D3> well, if you're using altivec
1017 2011-04-07 13:34:02 <Diablo-D3> your code is going to be almost identical to your sse2 code
1018 2011-04-07 13:34:09 <topi`> Diablo-D3: also the native insn set was way better for that than any intel chips :)
1019 2011-04-07 13:34:23 <topi`> I'm talking about times before altivec, before sse2
1020 2011-04-07 13:34:30 <topi`> I think it was 1999 or 2000 :)
1021 2011-04-07 13:34:38 <Diablo-D3> heh
1022 2011-04-07 13:34:46 <Diablo-D3> but ppc is dead now :<
1023 2011-04-07 13:34:53 <topi`> and I was young and still was able to concentrate on asm
1024 2011-04-07 13:34:59 <topi`> nowadays I can do nothing, it seems
1025 2011-04-07 13:35:19 <topi`> the ppc STILL lives on my iMac ;) a 2.1GHz G5
1026 2011-04-07 13:35:41 <topi`> the computer is almost 6 years old but is very decent
1027 2011-04-07 13:36:08 <Diablo-D3> I still have my powerbook
1028 2011-04-07 13:36:13 <Diablo-D3> g4 1.25ghz
1029 2011-04-07 13:39:22 <[Tycho]> I have some ppc too :) Up to 9600/300 :)
1030 2011-04-07 13:39:28 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1031 2011-04-07 13:39:49 <topi`> I should add some info to the miners table in bitcoin.it wiki
1032 2011-04-07 13:39:55 <topi`> how do you get edit access there?
1033 2011-04-07 13:40:08 <WakiMiko_> register an account
1034 2011-04-07 13:40:15 <topi`> I just did
1035 2011-04-07 13:40:23 <WakiMiko_> you need to confirm your email address
1036 2011-04-07 13:40:24 <topi`> ah, it was for bitcoin-otc wiki
1037 2011-04-07 13:40:25 <topi`> sorry
1038 2011-04-07 13:40:32 <topi`> all these wikis drive me nuts!
1039 2011-04-07 13:40:57 genjix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1040 2011-04-07 13:41:45 genjix has joined
1041 2011-04-07 13:43:23 <tcatm> genjix: looks like your api is broken
1042 2011-04-07 13:43:36 <topi`> I would contribute a lot more if anonymous wiki edits were possible :)
1043 2011-04-07 13:43:50 <Diablo-D3> they shouldnt be possible due to spam
1044 2011-04-07 13:44:14 <tcatm> genjix: getTrades.php doesn't return anything
1045 2011-04-07 13:52:08 <topi`> Diablo-D3: funny how 6 years ago there was very little to none spam to wikis (I was regularly contributing to wikipedia at that time
1046 2011-04-07 13:52:27 <Diablo-D3> yeah, and now wikipedia is a pile of shit
1047 2011-04-07 13:53:25 <topi`> sad
1048 2011-04-07 13:56:39 Zenith77 has joined
1049 2011-04-07 13:58:49 Guest11759 is now known as kisom_dev
1050 2011-04-07 13:58:59 <tcatm> anyone heard of http://www.donsbulbs.com ? Looks like they accept Bitcoin
1051 2011-04-07 14:02:19 <edcba> nice
1052 2011-04-07 14:03:30 <topi`> I added some systems to the wiki [Mining hardware comparison] ... any guesses which CPUs have the best Mhash/watt ratio? :)
1053 2011-04-07 14:04:06 <edcba> http://thecrittercasual.com/Info.html accept bitcoins too ?!
1054 2011-04-07 14:04:13 <topi`> ...but still fall short of the Mhash/watt ratios of ATI 5xxx series and so on
1055 2011-04-07 14:04:15 <UukGoblin> tcatm, with a 25% discount? :-O
1056 2011-04-07 14:04:35 <UukGoblin> I actually do need a bulb
1057 2011-04-07 14:04:45 <tcatm> well, try it ant let us know
1058 2011-04-07 14:04:54 <edcba> http://www.codeshirts.com/
1059 2011-04-07 14:06:21 <topi`> I think a nice way to promote Bitcoin would be to assemble a huge list of webshops that accept bitcoins. including bulbs and pet collars :)
1060 2011-04-07 14:06:45 <edcba> http://bluecanarynightlight.com/order.php
1061 2011-04-07 14:07:12 <edcba> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=%22bitcoin%22+site:com+shipping
1062 2011-04-07 14:07:19 <edcba> that's how i found them
1063 2011-04-07 14:09:11 <UukGoblin> tcatm, hrm, they all seem sold out
1064 2011-04-07 14:12:13 <UukGoblin> ooh, the bitcoin faucet has run dry ;-]
1065 2011-04-07 14:13:16 <topi`> poor faucet :(
1066 2011-04-07 14:13:34 <topi`> I got my first 0.05 from there! thanks faucet
1067 2011-04-07 14:13:36 * UukGoblin returns his 5 BTC
1068 2011-04-07 14:15:18 glassresistor has joined
1069 2011-04-07 14:15:40 glassresistor has quit (Client Quit)
1070 2011-04-07 14:16:03 glassresistor has joined
1071 2011-04-07 14:16:03 glassresistor has quit (Changing host)
1072 2011-04-07 14:16:03 glassresistor has joined
1073 2011-04-07 14:19:37 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1074 2011-04-07 14:19:59 ApertureScience has quit (Quit: Can God microwave a taco so hot that not even *HE* can eat it without burns?)
1075 2011-04-07 14:25:06 <genjix> tcatm: no trades in the last 24 hours
1076 2011-04-07 14:28:14 <tcatm> genjix: mhm could be a bug that causes bitcoincharts to delete all trades when there a no trades. can you switch to all trades and then back to 24h to check what it does?
1077 2011-04-07 14:30:26 Sthebig has quit (Quit: /quit)
1078 2011-04-07 14:31:12 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1079 2011-04-07 14:32:01 <genjix> tcatm: ok
1080 2011-04-07 14:32:48 Sthebig has joined
1081 2011-04-07 14:33:01 <genjix> tcatm: done
1082 2011-04-07 14:33:03 antivigilante has joined
1083 2011-04-07 14:33:06 <genjix> lets see what happens
1084 2011-04-07 14:33:49 darkskiez has joined
1085 2011-04-07 14:33:56 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,blocks
1086 2011-04-07 14:33:58 <gribble> 117184
1087 2011-04-07 14:34:13 <tcatm> genjix: looks like it got the trades
1088 2011-04-07 14:34:29 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
1089 2011-04-07 14:34:30 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7674,"low":0.6902,"vol":9673,"buy":0.7401,"sell":0.76,"last":0.76}}
1090 2011-04-07 14:37:22 darkskiez has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1091 2011-04-07 14:37:28 Sthebig has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1092 2011-04-07 14:43:34 <UukGoblin> \o/ my 5 BTC have arrived
1093 2011-04-07 14:43:41 <UukGoblin> should last for another 100 newbies
1094 2011-04-07 14:45:04 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1095 2011-04-07 14:45:58 <mizerydearia> hmm, is this the direction of Bitcoin software? --> with the Wallet protocol, GUIs will talk to Wallet over a socket"
1096 2011-04-07 14:46:04 <mizerydearia> I haven't been paying attention
1097 2011-04-07 14:47:14 <tcatm> mizerydearia: nope
1098 2011-04-07 14:47:27 oi has joined
1099 2011-04-07 14:47:38 <xelister> ello ello
1100 2011-04-07 14:47:42 <xelister> this is wallet speaking
1101 2011-04-07 14:47:48 <xelister> come quick Robin, I'm being robbed
1102 2011-04-07 14:48:06 <mizerydearia> tcatm, hmm, strange, because someone mentioned it in #bitcoin-gentoo for the gentoo ebuilds.
1103 2011-04-07 14:48:08 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: yep
1104 2011-04-07 14:49:39 <tcatm> mizerydearia: who?
1105 2011-04-07 14:50:09 <oi> whois
1106 2011-04-07 14:51:11 oi has quit (Client Quit)
1107 2011-04-07 14:51:32 <mizerydearia> tcatm, http://pastebin.com/k731vkER
1108 2011-04-07 14:52:35 <tcatm> ah, luke-jr :)
1109 2011-04-07 14:53:09 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, what wallet protocol? ;-P
1110 2011-04-07 14:53:21 <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
1111 2011-04-07 14:54:03 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: still drafting, so not usable yet
1112 2011-04-07 14:54:09 darkskiez has joined
1113 2011-04-07 14:54:16 <xelister> wtf wallet protocol
1114 2011-04-07 14:54:26 <UukGoblin> interesting
1115 2011-04-07 14:54:59 <mizerydearia> It appears the wallet protocol is established entirely by luke-jr. Is this something to consider integrating into Bitcoin client? I am concerned about it in that if it is not, then for it to be included only in the gentoo ebuild will then taint the gentoo ebuild.
1116 2011-04-07 14:55:33 <UukGoblin> mizerydearia, "Everything beyond this point is strictly DRAFT, should NOT be implemented, and is subject to being completely rewritten or modified!"
1117 2011-04-07 14:55:40 <mizerydearia> of course
1118 2011-04-07 14:56:15 <tcatm> is there even code for it yet?
1119 2011-04-07 14:56:21 <mizerydearia> I have no idea
1120 2011-04-07 14:57:04 <UukGoblin> it'd require a big-ish change to bitcoind I guess
1121 2011-04-07 14:57:14 <UukGoblin> if not a re0-write
1122 2011-04-07 14:57:22 <UukGoblin> s/0//
1123 2011-04-07 14:58:13 <jed> events over HTTP?
1124 2011-04-07 15:00:31 <jed> I know I'm not well-known in this community, but egads, HTTP sucks for general RPC. just look at the necessity for long-polling
1125 2011-04-07 15:02:16 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1126 2011-04-07 15:02:57 m00p has joined
1127 2011-04-07 15:05:40 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: nah, it would be able as complex as adding RPC was
1128 2011-04-07 15:06:00 <luke-jr> jed: read the protocol, it doesn't require long-polling
1129 2011-04-07 15:06:07 <luke-jr> jed: that's one of the goals
1130 2011-04-07 15:06:28 devrandom has joined
1131 2011-04-07 15:07:08 <jed> right, but you're yielding events
1132 2011-04-07 15:09:37 <jed> two-way street of communication makes me hesitant to outright agree with the choice of HTTP. that said, not my project, just struck me as interesting, since hickson's draft probably isn't going to go anywhere either
1133 2011-04-07 15:10:34 <luke-jr> hickson's draft?
1134 2011-04-07 15:10:48 <luke-jr> jed: you are familiar with SSE and SPDY?
1135 2011-04-07 15:10:57 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1136 2011-04-07 15:11:21 <luke-jr> jed: another goal, is to be simple for simple things (like a PHP script that just wants the current balance)
1137 2011-04-07 15:11:27 <UukGoblin> luke-jr, care to expand the acronyms plz?
1138 2011-04-07 15:11:32 <luke-jr> which is merely GET /balance
1139 2011-04-07 15:11:41 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: SSE = HTTP Server-Side Events
1140 2011-04-07 15:11:56 <jed> I'm familiar with SSE, yes, and needing them in a project negates HTTP, in my mind
1141 2011-04-07 15:11:59 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: SPDY = Google's HTTP multiplexing protocol with support for Server Hints
1142 2011-04-07 15:12:24 <jed> a big red flag is that you're building a specification on top of three (more?) liquid specifications
1143 2011-04-07 15:12:38 <jed> websockets are probably never going to be completed, because of inherent security flaws
1144 2011-04-07 15:13:07 <jed> ian got pushback on SSE, because there are better ways to accomplish the same thing
1145 2011-04-07 15:13:09 <luke-jr> jed: Websockets are only used for optional tunnelling of p2p protocol
1146 2011-04-07 15:13:13 <jed> yeah - avoid them
1147 2011-04-07 15:13:27 <jed> mozilla turned them off, and it's unlikely they'll come back
1148 2011-04-07 15:14:01 <UukGoblin> dbus! ;-P
1149 2011-04-07 15:14:11 <luke-jr> afaik, the security concerns are strictly for webpages, not protocol-related
1150 2011-04-07 15:14:29 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: dbus would work for GUIs, but not for webapps or non-*nix
1151 2011-04-07 15:14:33 <jed> not true: the handshake is vulnerable to attacks
1152 2011-04-07 15:14:43 <jed> very, in fact - http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg04744.html
1153 2011-04-07 15:15:01 <luke-jr> jed: normal TCP connections don't even have a handshake
1154 2011-04-07 15:15:15 <jed> ...the websocket handshake...
1155 2011-04-07 15:15:23 <xelister> luke-jr: hmm
1156 2011-04-07 15:15:27 <UukGoblin> hrm
1157 2011-04-07 15:15:27 ApertureScience has joined
1158 2011-04-07 15:15:39 eao has joined
1159 2011-04-07 15:15:42 <UukGoblin> sounds like a need for an abstract protocol with multiple transport plugins...
1160 2011-04-07 15:15:54 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: it is :P
1161 2011-04-07 15:16:32 <UukGoblin> great :->
1162 2011-04-07 15:16:34 <luke-jr> the Application Layer could be used over any similar Presentation/Session Layer
1163 2011-04-07 15:16:54 <luke-jr> and this is why it's still a draft-- people can provide valuable input
1164 2011-04-07 15:17:10 <jed> what's wrong with the current JSON-RPC?
1165 2011-04-07 15:17:12 <tcatm> some changes: http://bitcoincharts.com/~tcatm/bitcoin.org/
1166 2011-04-07 15:17:26 <luke-jr> jed: besides being completely unusable for GUIs?
1167 2011-04-07 15:17:34 <jed> how so?
1168 2011-04-07 15:17:48 <luke-jr> jed: there are no events whatsoever, everything is polled
1169 2011-04-07 15:17:58 <jed> right, inherent to its design around HTTP
1170 2011-04-07 15:18:05 <UukGoblin> tcatm, cute
1171 2011-04-07 15:18:09 <luke-jr> it also doesn't provide many necessary functionalities
1172 2011-04-07 15:18:22 <jed> like new verbs?
1173 2011-04-07 15:18:23 <luke-jr> and has been poorly designed from the start
1174 2011-04-07 15:18:53 <luke-jr> jed: like controlling transaction fees, for instance
1175 2011-04-07 15:19:00 <jed> okay, so you add a new verb
1176 2011-04-07 15:19:13 agricocb has joined
1177 2011-04-07 15:19:38 <jed> looks like a patch to do just that?: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/patch.bitcoin-settxfee
1178 2011-04-07 15:20:12 <luke-jr> â¦
1179 2011-04-07 15:20:18 <luke-jr> that doesn't control tx fees, it just adds them
1180 2011-04-07 15:20:27 <jed> okay, so add a new verb that "controls"
1181 2011-04-07 15:20:28 <luke-jr> and the inherent design flaws are still annoying
1182 2011-04-07 15:20:50 <luke-jr> and polling is still a major problem
1183 2011-04-07 15:20:55 <jed> which isn't fixed by your spec!
1184 2011-04-07 15:21:03 <luke-jr> sure it is?
1185 2011-04-07 15:21:11 jj`` has left ()
1186 2011-04-07 15:21:16 <jed> how?
1187 2011-04-07 15:21:16 <mizerydearia> I agree. tcatm's design for bitconi.org is MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH better than what exists now.
1188 2011-04-07 15:21:42 <luke-jr> jed: how isn't it? the draft 0 has events, and doesn't try to use BTC as internal values
1189 2011-04-07 15:21:44 <mizerydearia> bitconiisland.org?
1190 2011-04-07 15:21:52 <sirius-m> I think the black is too dark
1191 2011-04-07 15:22:06 <jed> draft 0 has an empty events section, and mentions two liquid specifications as a means to accomplish them
1192 2011-04-07 15:22:19 <mizerydearia> sirius-m, Well, tweak the colors a bit, otherwise the layout is amazing
1193 2011-04-07 15:22:20 <jed> (which no libraries at all support, by the way, so to use them you're going to have to reinvent HTTP in the programming language you're using against this spec)
1194 2011-04-07 15:22:45 <mizerydearia> It is very easy to understand and see everything important without scrolling, the most important thing
1195 2011-04-07 15:23:01 <tcatm> sirius-m: the footer?
1196 2011-04-07 15:23:08 <luke-jr> jed: alternatives?
1197 2011-04-07 15:23:09 <mizerydearia> of course, dependent on your resolution/window size
1198 2011-04-07 15:23:16 <jed> luke-jr: not building it upon HTTP?
1199 2011-04-07 15:23:32 <luke-jr> jed: then what?
1200 2011-04-07 15:23:54 <sirius-m> tcatm: yes
1201 2011-04-07 15:24:02 <jed> protobufs sound like a start
1202 2011-04-07 15:24:35 <jed> the big issue you have is message chopping, which protobufs gets you -- they can be parsed from a stream efficiently -- and that's the only benefit HTTP gives you in this scenario
1203 2011-04-07 15:24:41 <tcatm> sirius-m: almost expected that problem as I didn't design on my color proof screen :)
1204 2011-04-07 15:25:09 <mizerydearia> tcatm, Maybe change it to #333333 (which is exactly the same color used on current home page)
1205 2011-04-07 15:25:25 <luke-jr> jed: protobufs don't get you message chopping, last I heard
1206 2011-04-07 15:25:44 <jed> k, then zeromq carrying protobufs
1207 2011-04-07 15:26:09 <jed> building on top of 0mq is a huge win, because you get alternative communication strategies, too
1208 2011-04-07 15:26:13 <jed> scaling to pubsub is cake
1209 2011-04-07 15:26:21 <mizerydearia> tcatm, instead of a 20x100 px black colored image
1210 2011-04-07 15:26:51 m00p has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1211 2011-04-07 15:27:05 <jed> zeromq abstracts away "find the end of the message", and only yields full messages to you
1212 2011-04-07 15:27:26 <jed> which could be a protobuf for wire-size efficiency, or JSON, or whatever
1213 2011-04-07 15:27:32 <luke-jr> jed: i don't see a protocol specification
1214 2011-04-07 15:27:45 <jed> it's binary on the wire, why do you care?
1215 2011-04-07 15:27:49 Sthebig has joined
1216 2011-04-07 15:27:54 m00p has joined
1217 2011-04-07 15:28:06 <jed> all 0mq does on the wire is frame ... that's it
1218 2011-04-07 15:28:07 <luke-jr> jed: because it can hardly be considered a standard without a specification
1219 2011-04-07 15:28:25 <jed> oh, you're one of those guys
1220 2011-04-07 15:28:28 <mizerydearia> Well...
1221 2011-04-07 15:28:28 <jed> in which case, here ya go: http://rfc.zeromq.org/
1222 2011-04-07 15:28:39 <luke-jr> not to mention, LGPL is probably not an ideal license for a library everyone needs to use
1223 2011-04-07 15:28:56 <mizerydearia> luke-jr, Perhaps gentoo ebuild can be the first to establish experimenting with the wallet protocol and if it catches on, awesome ^_^
1224 2011-04-07 15:28:59 <jed> "a library"?
1225 2011-04-07 15:29:05 <jed> there is no "a library"
1226 2011-04-07 15:29:12 <luke-jr> the 0MQ lib
1227 2011-04-07 15:29:19 <jed> there's reference C and bindings to a whole bunch of languages
1228 2011-04-07 15:29:28 <UukGoblin> oh, one cool thing would be to integrate with gnucash
1229 2011-04-07 15:29:40 <mizerydearia> I have included unofficial (at the time) patches in bitcoin-git-9999 previously
1230 2011-04-07 15:29:46 <UukGoblin> an automatic bitcoin 'listtransactions' thingy to gnucash
1231 2011-04-07 15:29:49 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: ew :p
1232 2011-04-07 15:29:56 <mizerydearia> ew?
1233 2011-04-07 15:30:23 <mizerydearia> listransactions was a very necessary feature for web apps that wasn't in official release for many months
1234 2011-04-07 15:30:33 <mizerydearia> listtransactions*
1235 2011-04-07 15:30:40 <tcatm> sirius-m, mizerydearia: color changed to #222
1236 2011-04-07 15:30:54 redengin has quit (Quit: AndroIRC)
1237 2011-04-07 15:31:58 <mizerydearia> tcatm, Ah, I see, the image has a bit of transparency.
1238 2011-04-07 15:32:02 <luke-jr> jed: 0MQ *specifications* are GPLv3 :/
1239 2011-04-07 15:32:18 <mizerydearia> It wasn't noticeable before
1240 2011-04-07 15:32:45 <jed> I hate GPL too, but reinventing the wheel instead of using a purpose-built solution is just as stupid, imnsho
1241 2011-04-07 15:33:04 <jed> yet another HTTP based protocol that has its own take on what RESTful means
1242 2011-04-07 15:33:08 <jed> = sigh
1243 2011-04-07 15:33:13 <mizerydearia> or, the image was changed too ^_^
1244 2011-04-07 15:33:43 <jed> I'll put it to you straight: JSON-RPC, has, in my experience, been fine to develop against and I've enjoyed the code that I've written
1245 2011-04-07 15:33:51 <jed> your spec would scare me away from coding for bitcoin if it became the official
1246 2011-04-07 15:34:48 <tcatm> mizerydearia: it was a little too dark and looked black on some screens
1247 2011-04-07 15:35:06 <jed> the direction is just ... scary. it's like an opportunity to use every liquid, experimental spec you can find. dismissing zeromq outright because of its licensing (for an open-source project to use, mind!) and lack of a formal spec for a black-box wire protocol is worrying in itself
1248 2011-04-07 15:35:16 <tcatm> it's really hard to get web colors right. I have three good monitors here and all display it slightly different
1249 2011-04-07 15:35:18 Anonnnny has joined
1250 2011-04-07 15:35:19 <jed> my unsolicited five cents, anyway
1251 2011-04-07 15:35:22 <luke-jr> jed: How would 0MQ+protobuf replace this: file_get_contents('http://localhost:8335/balance')
1252 2011-04-07 15:35:36 <UukGoblin> what's the problem with specs being GPLed?
1253 2011-04-07 15:35:39 <jed> well, first, URLs being enabled in file_get_contents is a security hole
1254 2011-04-07 15:36:07 <mizerydearia> jed, I think we should consider reinventing the wheel: http://is.gd/gHW2da
1255 2011-04-07 15:36:17 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: that means any software implementing it has to also be GPL
1256 2011-04-07 15:36:23 <jed> luke-jr: hahah, no it doesn't.
1257 2011-04-07 15:36:50 <UukGoblin> not at all
1258 2011-04-07 15:36:53 <UukGoblin> the library is LGPL
1259 2011-04-07 15:36:59 <luke-jr> well, GPL doesn't make sense with regard to non-software, so it's open to legal grey areas all over
1260 2011-04-07 15:37:06 <luke-jr> but that would be the obvious conclusion
1261 2011-04-07 15:37:36 <jed> why does the written specification of the black-box wire protocol, written ex post facto from the actual implementation and only used for framing messages, important to you?
1262 2011-04-07 15:37:48 <jed> seriously, the only thing that protocol does is frame
1263 2011-04-07 15:37:59 Zarutian has joined
1264 2011-04-07 15:38:15 <jed> it's like writing a specification about pascal strings
1265 2011-04-07 15:38:17 <luke-jr> jed: why are standards important?
1266 2011-04-07 15:38:36 <mizerydearia> e.g. Microsoft vs Standards-compliant browsers
1267 2011-04-07 15:38:47 <mizerydearia> I think that is reputable source as to why standards are important
1268 2011-04-07 15:38:54 <mizerydearia> Microsoft IE
1269 2011-04-07 15:39:10 <jed> which is amusing, because neither IE nor mainstream browsers implement standards to the T
1270 2011-04-07 15:39:40 <mizerydearia> But it helps to establsih direction
1271 2011-04-07 15:39:41 <jed> there was just the way IE did things, and the way alternative browsers did things, and the alternative way happened to be closer (but by no means exact) to the spec
1272 2011-04-07 15:39:43 <mizerydearia> and organization
1273 2011-04-07 15:39:59 <jed> sure, but they aren't always required
1274 2011-04-07 15:40:04 <mizerydearia> of course
1275 2011-04-07 15:40:15 <jed> what we're debating here is roughly the equivalent of writing a specification about null-padded strings
1276 2011-04-07 15:40:21 <jed> char *foo = "bar";
1277 2011-04-07 15:40:34 <jed> do I need a spec in hand to know that's going in memory as B A R \0 ?
1278 2011-04-07 15:40:45 <luke-jr> jed: is there a reason 0MQ+protobuf wouldn't just fit right in as Session+Presentation layers in DRAFT 0?
1279 2011-04-07 15:40:57 <jed> the OSI model doesn't really apply to API specifications
1280 2011-04-07 15:41:01 <jed> I'm not sure why you're using it
1281 2011-04-07 15:41:07 phantomcircuit has joined
1282 2011-04-07 15:42:59 <luke-jr> jed: the OSI model is designed precisely for protocol stacks, which is exactly what we're talking aboutâ¦
1283 2011-04-07 15:43:19 <jed> yeah, except HTTP is at layer 7
1284 2011-04-07 15:43:28 <jed> so...reinventing TCP sessions for layer 5?
1285 2011-04-07 15:43:34 Anonnnny has left ("Leaving")
1286 2011-04-07 15:43:42 <phantomcircuit> jed, websockets?
1287 2011-04-07 15:43:46 <phantomcircuit> jed, lol
1288 2011-04-07 15:44:49 <jed> I'd avoid implementing against websockets unless the final spec dosn't require the UPGRADE mechanism
1289 2011-04-07 15:44:57 niekie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1290 2011-04-07 15:45:04 <phantomcircuit> jed, UPGRADE?
1291 2011-04-07 15:45:53 <jed> it's how websockets are handshaken. client GET /foo blah, server 101 WebSocket Handshake Upgrade: WebSocket Connection: Upgrade
1292 2011-04-07 15:46:07 <jed> I've written an entire app on top of websockets, and once mozilla turned them off in 4, it's now useless
1293 2011-04-07 15:46:49 <jed> which is roughly the same scenario this wiki draft would be swimming toward, writing a new spec built upon liquid specs...
1294 2011-04-07 15:46:59 BlueMatt has joined
1295 2011-04-07 15:47:12 <phantomcircuit> jed, ah
1296 2011-04-07 15:50:49 <UukGoblin> this 0mq looks cool
1297 2011-04-07 15:51:03 <jed> luke-jr: to answer your earlier question about simple applications, there's nothing stopping you from offering two endpoints - a stateless HTTP one (here's the cool part: built on top of the 0mq backend), and the 0mq one for clients that need write ability and event push
1298 2011-04-07 15:51:17 <jed> in fact, you could reimplement JSON-RPC on top of the 0mq backend and nothing breaks
1299 2011-04-07 15:51:34 <jed> that's a big, giant, crucial, boldface awesomeness layer: nothing breaks
1300 2011-04-07 15:52:01 <jed> for clients that need extra stuff and push events? badabing, you now expose the backend as a separate endpoint
1301 2011-04-07 15:54:06 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1302 2011-04-07 15:57:15 Speeder has joined
1303 2011-04-07 15:57:26 <Speeder> I just saw bitcoinJ it creates or store a local wallet too?
1304 2011-04-07 15:58:14 robotarmy has joined
1305 2011-04-07 16:01:48 <Kiba> jed = mtgox?
1306 2011-04-07 16:01:56 midnightmagic has joined
1307 2011-04-07 16:02:15 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux == mtgox
1308 2011-04-07 16:02:16 <jed> why do people keep asking me that?
1309 2011-04-07 16:04:42 <Kiba> an earthquake hit Japan
1310 2011-04-07 16:04:47 <gasteve> 0mq does indeed look cool
1311 2011-04-07 16:04:48 <Kiba> let hope MagicalTux is alright
1312 2011-04-07 16:04:53 <jgarzik> jed: mtgox's creator is a Jed
1313 2011-04-07 16:04:57 <jed> ah
1314 2011-04-07 16:05:04 <jed> we rule, anyway
1315 2011-04-07 16:05:16 <BlueMatt> Kiba: last I heard he is fine
1316 2011-04-07 16:05:19 <BlueMatt> old news
1317 2011-04-07 16:05:29 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: new 7.1 quake
1318 2011-04-07 16:05:44 <BlueMatt> wait...god damn not reading my news for 10 hours
1319 2011-04-07 16:06:09 <jed> near the same area of the last one, too
1320 2011-04-07 16:06:10 <BlueMatt> thats what happens when google reader gets behind by a day
1321 2011-04-07 16:06:40 <Kiba> The Japanese are having a bad year
1322 2011-04-07 16:06:48 <BlueMatt> the world kinda is
1323 2011-04-07 16:07:03 <BlueMatt> middle east + japan + new Zealand
1324 2011-04-07 16:07:13 <Kiba> middle east is more positive
1325 2011-04-07 16:07:18 <Kiba> Japan kinda bad
1326 2011-04-07 16:07:21 <Kiba> err
1327 2011-04-07 16:07:21 <Kiba> bad
1328 2011-04-07 16:07:24 <Kiba> earthquake
1329 2011-04-07 16:07:24 <BlueMatt> true but negative in the short term
1330 2011-04-07 16:07:34 <Kiba> and now...bitcoin is growing up
1331 2011-04-07 16:07:48 larsivi has joined
1332 2011-04-07 16:07:51 <BlueMatt> almost
1333 2011-04-07 16:08:14 <BlueMatt> all we need is one big corporate supporter and we are golden
1334 2011-04-07 16:08:29 <JFK911> how about bank of america
1335 2011-04-07 16:08:32 <JFK911> or paypal
1336 2011-04-07 16:08:44 <JFK911> they are pretty big
1337 2011-04-07 16:08:50 <jgarzik> France outlaws hashed passwords? Wow.
1338 2011-04-07 16:08:50 <JFK911> also corporate
1339 2011-04-07 16:08:55 <BlueMatt> that would do, but frankly just a site like thinkgeek would be ridiculously huge
1340 2011-04-07 16:09:10 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yea, god I just want to shoot the french govt recently, that and italy
1341 2011-04-07 16:09:18 <JFK911> thinkgeek has plenty of cash.
1342 2011-04-07 16:09:29 <Kiba> so...just to make sure: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
1343 2011-04-07 16:09:33 <BlueMatt> JFK911: nothing like paypal or bofa
1344 2011-04-07 16:09:37 <Kiba> any of ya saw my crowdfunding effort?
1345 2011-04-07 16:09:50 <JFK911> well i saw what they charge for items
1346 2011-04-07 16:09:56 <JFK911> versus what they cost on alibaba
1347 2011-04-07 16:09:59 <JFK911> i think they are strapped
1348 2011-04-07 16:10:38 <BlueMatt> JFK911: - volume and - cost of people, retail marks up like a bitch get used to it
1349 2011-04-07 16:12:04 <grbgout> Kiba: have you ever played tetrinet?
1350 2011-04-07 16:12:29 <Kiba> grbgout: no.
1351 2011-04-07 16:12:40 <grbgout> It's pretty fun, or was back when I used to play it.
1352 2011-04-07 16:12:49 <grbgout> It's a multiplayer tetris game.
1353 2011-04-07 16:12:54 <Kiba> I know.
1354 2011-04-07 16:13:03 <grbgout> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TetriNET
1355 2011-04-07 16:13:11 <grbgout> So you know about it, but hvae never played it?
1356 2011-04-07 16:13:13 <grbgout> *have
1357 2011-04-07 16:13:20 <Kiba> nope
1358 2011-04-07 16:13:37 <jed> that game sucked up way too much of high school for me
1359 2011-04-07 16:13:39 <Kiba> I choose multiplayer tetris because it builds on what I already know
1360 2011-04-07 16:13:58 <Kiba> now, I am almost done..save for adding a couple of player interactive feature
1361 2011-04-07 16:14:14 <Kiba> err multiplayer interaction
1362 2011-04-07 16:14:31 <Kiba> anyway, I am trying my damn hardest to get this project crowdfunded..
1363 2011-04-07 16:15:06 <grbgout> It'll be interesting to see how it works out. I've been thinking about doing some BTC-driven/supported gamedev.
1364 2011-04-07 16:15:17 <Kiba> grbgout: you no pledge?
1365 2011-04-07 16:15:22 <grbgout> nope
1366 2011-04-07 16:15:41 <grbgout> I've got all of 2 btc, last I checked --- 1 of which hasn't been 'confirmed' yet.
1367 2011-04-07 16:15:49 <Kiba> jed: how about you?
1368 2011-04-07 16:15:56 <jed> I've mined 1 BTC
1369 2011-04-07 16:16:02 <jed> love to, but brand new to the community
1370 2011-04-07 16:16:04 <Kiba> JFK911: how about you?
1371 2011-04-07 16:16:08 * grbgout high-fives jed, "yeah, go poor people!"
1372 2011-04-07 16:17:51 * Kiba writes nope for grbgout and jed "Nope"
1373 2011-04-07 16:17:54 <Kiba> errr
1374 2011-04-07 16:18:03 <Kiba> anyway, I don't think everybody have heard of it
1375 2011-04-07 16:18:26 <grbgout> Kiba: one thing, you might want to consider a different license than public domain: one sec and I"ll explain
1376 2011-04-07 16:18:49 <grbgout> Using something like this instead: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/
1377 2011-04-07 16:18:52 <Kiba> I will not go MIT or GPL
1378 2011-04-07 16:19:01 <grbgout> Please read the aforementioned link.
1379 2011-04-07 16:19:11 <jed> apache > MIT/GPL
1380 2011-04-07 16:19:15 <Kiba> I was planning to use UNLICENSE
1381 2011-04-07 16:19:23 <grbgout> Kiba: please read the link provided.
1382 2011-04-07 16:19:55 <jed> Kiba: then I look forward to repackaging your entire game, renaming it, and putting it on the app store for $.99/copy
1383 2011-04-07 16:19:56 <grbgout> I haven't seen unlicense, I presume you mean this: http://unlicense.org/ I'll give it a read.
1384 2011-04-07 16:20:49 <Kiba> jed: it's not a desktop or mobile game
1385 2011-04-07 16:21:10 <Kiba> it's a bleeding edge HTML5 web app
1386 2011-04-07 16:21:15 <grbgout> Kiba: anyway, the wtfpl more closely resembles a public license license. The existence of WTFPL is due to some countries not recognize the legitimacy of public licenses, this allows developers to get around that.
1387 2011-04-07 16:21:25 <Kiba> ok
1388 2011-04-07 16:21:38 <jed> iOS has UIWebView, and I can host my own copy and rename it all
1389 2011-04-07 16:21:53 <Kiba> just correcting you
1390 2011-04-07 16:22:00 <jed> nod
1391 2011-04-07 16:22:19 <Kiba> anyway, you won't get the full game until after alpha status had passed
1392 2011-04-07 16:22:47 <grbgout> Kiba: unlicense sounds pretty similar to wtfpl
1393 2011-04-07 16:23:00 <grbgout> nice to know there is more than one available
1394 2011-04-07 16:23:24 <luke-jr> grbgout: except WTFPL is legal in all jurisdictions
1395 2011-04-07 16:23:37 <grbgout> Isn't it sad that things are so convoluted today that something as seemingly simple as "public domain" can be contested?
1396 2011-04-07 16:23:47 <grbgout> luke-jr: right, that's why I suggested it.
1397 2011-04-07 16:24:12 <Kiba> luke-jr: so, have you check out the crowdfunding thread and decided?
1398 2011-04-07 16:24:50 <luke-jr> grbgout: CC0 seems to have more legal eyes
1399 2011-04-07 16:24:56 <luke-jr> Kiba: ?
1400 2011-04-07 16:25:12 <Kiba> I am trying to crowdfund my next game project
1401 2011-04-07 16:25:46 <JFK911> kiba im not much of a gamer
1402 2011-04-07 16:26:10 <Kiba> that's alright
1403 2011-04-07 16:26:21 <Kiba> so, no..then?
1404 2011-04-07 16:26:34 <JFK911> maybe if i mine a block :)
1405 2011-04-07 16:26:45 * Kiba put down "hope" for JFK911
1406 2011-04-07 16:26:56 <Kiba> err
1407 2011-04-07 16:26:57 <Kiba> "nope"
1408 2011-04-07 16:27:08 <BlueMatt> JFK911: I put up 5, despite not having any intention to really play it (not really my style of game)
1409 2011-04-07 16:27:10 <grbgout> luke-jr: not familiar with CC0.
1410 2011-04-07 16:27:43 <luke-jr> grbgout: public domain with a "but if that's not legal" MIT-like license
1411 2011-04-07 16:28:24 <luke-jr> jed: this look better to you? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol#DRAFT_0
1412 2011-04-07 16:28:43 <grbgout> luke-jr: url? Or should I just google it?
1413 2011-04-07 16:28:49 cenuij has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1414 2011-04-07 16:29:00 <luke-jr> http://creativecommons.org/choose/zero/
1415 2011-04-07 16:29:05 <grbgout> thanks
1416 2011-04-07 16:29:13 <jed> huh?: stdio (required for self-contained UI bundling)
1417 2011-04-07 16:30:00 <luke-jr> jed: UI+Wallet bundles will just communicate over stdio, no need for encryption or listening sockets
1418 2011-04-07 16:30:18 <jed> 0mq has IPC and local
1419 2011-04-07 16:31:04 <grbgout> Kiba: well, it's nice to know there are other game developers out there planning on BTC, and thinking about an HTML5 interface. I hope your experiment goes well.
1420 2011-04-07 16:31:40 <Kiba> well, it feels sucky sometime
1421 2011-04-07 16:32:09 <Kiba> I have a feeling that there isn't much public interest in such a project
1422 2011-04-07 16:32:22 <grbgout> game development is not easy, but it's a lot easier when the development team is small --- at least when money isn't involved.
1423 2011-04-07 16:32:25 <Kiba> but it's also partially due to the way I advertise
1424 2011-04-07 16:32:45 <grbgout> I've never heard of globulation 2, but I have heard of core wars.
1425 2011-04-07 16:33:15 <luke-jr> jed: the protocol should work fine over stdio, afaik
1426 2011-04-07 16:33:32 <krytzz> Kiba: well games are always luxury
1427 2011-04-07 16:33:51 <Kiba> krytzz: ya decided to pledge or not?
1428 2011-04-07 16:34:23 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1429 2011-04-07 16:34:39 <grbgout> "1200 BTC in fundraising" --- does that mean pledged funds, or funds you've actually received.
1430 2011-04-07 16:35:12 <Kiba> pledged funds
1431 2011-04-07 16:35:58 <krytzz> Kiba: probably not, im just not interested in games anymore, no time to play anyways
1432 2011-04-07 16:36:19 * Kiba puts no for krytzz
1433 2011-04-07 16:36:24 <krytzz> ^^
1434 2011-04-07 16:36:39 <Kiba> 4 rejections so far
1435 2011-04-07 16:37:42 <grbgout> You might want to elaborate a bit on the pledge levels: "1 memory slot..." "6 memory slot..." It's not exactly clear from skimming the post what that means.
1436 2011-04-07 16:38:03 <Kiba> thanks
1437 2011-04-07 16:38:09 <Kiba> gottach get food
1438 2011-04-07 16:38:36 <luke-jr> jed: almost any other kind of IPC is vulnerable to other local apps connecting
1439 2011-04-07 16:39:46 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, uh
1440 2011-04-07 16:39:58 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, unless you're running bitcoin as another user....
1441 2011-04-07 16:41:26 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: ?
1442 2011-04-07 16:41:49 <phantomcircuit> local apps are going to be able to just read your programs memory
1443 2011-04-07 16:42:54 <Speeder> someone know if people already developed microtransactions API?
1444 2011-04-07 16:42:58 <topi`> "Tansactions can take tens of minutes to become confirmed, and this won't change for the forseeable future. Even after the computing power of the network is orders of magnitude larger than today, the difficulty of generating a block will self-adjust to maintain a target of 6 blocks per hour." ...does this mean that ALL transactions have to wait for another block to be mined? what happens when all the possible blocks are mined out?
1445 2011-04-07 16:43:06 <BlueMatt> Speeder: for btc, no
1446 2011-04-07 16:43:32 <Speeder> that is sad.
1447 2011-04-07 16:43:55 <Speeder> wait what? all transactions wait for a block to be generated?
1448 2011-04-07 16:44:06 <BlueMatt> Speeder: to be confirmed, yes
1449 2011-04-07 16:44:12 <sipa> a block is a confirmation of a transaction
1450 2011-04-07 16:44:16 <Speeder> humm... why, how it work?
1451 2011-04-07 16:44:23 <BlueMatt> Speeder: in fact that is the definition of confirmation
1452 2011-04-07 16:44:26 <sipa> and there will forever be blocks mined
1453 2011-04-07 16:44:41 <Speeder> I thought block were for something else
1454 2011-04-07 16:44:57 <sipa> blocks are a globally-agreed version of the order of accepted transactions
1455 2011-04-07 16:45:08 <sipa> the block chain, that is
1456 2011-04-07 16:45:26 <Speeder> interesting
1457 2011-04-07 16:45:38 <sipa> that is the one thing the block chain is needed for
1458 2011-04-07 16:45:40 <topi`> sipa: ok, so there will be blocks "forever" created, but only some of those blocks will actually get the 50 BTC reward?
1459 2011-04-07 16:45:42 <krytzz> Speeder that is possible no problem but people would have to trust each other or a single entity
1460 2011-04-07 16:45:51 <Speeder> why don't make blocks generate less BTC but be more frequent?
1461 2011-04-07 16:45:59 <sipa> that would result in more stale blocks
1462 2011-04-07 16:46:04 <sipa> and more block chain splits
1463 2011-04-07 16:46:16 <Speeder> that is a serious problem?
1464 2011-04-07 16:46:34 <sipa> maybe it could be reduced to let's say 2-3 minutes
1465 2011-04-07 16:46:44 <sipa> at some cost
1466 2011-04-07 16:46:57 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: programs can't access each others' memory (except root)
1467 2011-04-07 16:47:02 <Speeder> it is that 1 hour is a LOOOONG time...
1468 2011-04-07 16:47:25 <Speeder> I also wonder what it takes to create my own exchange
1469 2011-04-07 16:47:37 <sipa> for large transactions, 1 hour is pretty fast
1470 2011-04-07 16:48:03 <Speeder> sipa but we don't have large transactions
1471 2011-04-07 16:48:09 <sipa> for small transactions, there will be intermediaries who deal with the risk
1472 2011-04-07 16:48:12 <Speeder> the total amount of money in the system is 5 million, no?
1473 2011-04-07 16:48:52 <sipa> 5860050 currently
1474 2011-04-07 16:49:18 <Speeder> BTC
1475 2011-04-07 16:49:24 <Speeder> and USD?
1476 2011-04-07 16:50:10 <luke-jr> â¦
1477 2011-04-07 16:50:18 <luke-jr> the system is BTC.
1478 2011-04-07 16:50:24 <krytzz> cant be quantified
1479 2011-04-07 16:50:28 <luke-jr> well, not strictly BTC, but certainly not USD
1480 2011-04-07 16:50:34 <Speeder> it can be roughly calculated
1481 2011-04-07 16:50:38 <luke-jr> Speeder: not really
1482 2011-04-07 16:50:40 <nathan7> Speeder: Try converting cookies to USD
1483 2011-04-07 16:50:47 <nathan7> Say, 5860050 cookies.
1484 2011-04-07 16:50:56 <Speeder> nathan7: if each cookie costed me 1 USD, I would say that 10 cookies are 10 USD
1485 2011-04-07 16:50:59 <luke-jr> Speeder: after you sell so much, nobody will want to buy
1486 2011-04-07 16:51:01 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, pretty sure you can
1487 2011-04-07 16:51:04 <krytzz> Speeder: no, if everyone would sell his btc to USD, btc would become worthless
1488 2011-04-07 16:51:13 <Speeder> I know that.
1489 2011-04-07 16:51:30 <nathan7> Speeder: When you sell them you will lower the cookie price.
1490 2011-04-07 16:51:33 <Speeder> but I am asking the total value in USD, because that is what people take in account hwen making transactions (ie: selling and buying stuff)
1491 2011-04-07 16:51:38 <krytzz> in small quantities 1 btc ~ 0.7USD
1492 2011-04-07 16:51:42 <krytzz> or similar
1493 2011-04-07 16:51:48 <x6763> ;;bc,mtgox
1494 2011-04-07 16:51:49 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.7674,"low":0.6903,"vol":10660,"buy":0.7421,"sell":0.7675,"last":0.7674}}
1495 2011-04-07 16:52:38 <topi`> the "Myths" page on bitcoin.it wiki is really good :)
1496 2011-04-07 16:52:44 <sipa> the "market cap" would be $4497000
1497 2011-04-07 16:52:52 <sipa> but that's a pointless number, i believe
1498 2011-04-07 16:53:02 <topi`> maybe I'll add some ideas to the Shopkeepers section
1499 2011-04-07 16:53:05 <x6763> yes, i agree it's pointless
1500 2011-04-07 16:55:16 <Speeder> It is not totally pointless
1501 2011-04-07 16:55:23 <Speeder> it shows how much people are trading
1502 2011-04-07 16:55:28 <sipa> no it doesn't
1503 2011-04-07 16:55:36 <luke-jr> my Python script I just threw together estimates $2,248,501.56
1504 2011-04-07 16:55:37 <Speeder> if the market cap was in the trillions, it would mean the whole world was using bitcoins
1505 2011-04-07 16:55:42 <sipa> 4M of thos 5.8M BTC may already be lost
1506 2011-04-07 16:55:56 <x6763> the $4.5 million USD number is pretty much meaningless...it has no bearing on the reality of the bitcoin economy
1507 2011-04-07 16:55:59 <sipa> and we wouldn't know that, ever
1508 2011-04-07 16:56:15 <topi`> sipa: why would they be lost?
1509 2011-04-07 16:56:17 <luke-jr> assuming .7674 for the first BTC sold, and that price deflating linearly
1510 2011-04-07 16:56:19 <sipa> the real number you should look at: for how much $ are BTC's traded every day
1511 2011-04-07 16:56:28 <topi`> it's probably in the best interest of the owner to back up their wallets :)
1512 2011-04-07 16:56:29 <x6763> we don't know how many goods are traded for bitcoins every day
1513 2011-04-07 16:56:34 <luke-jr> and selling every one of those 5860050 cookies
1514 2011-04-07 16:56:50 <Speeder> who is the biggest consumer of bitcoins? (beside exchanges)
1515 2011-04-07 16:57:05 <sipa> bitcoins aren't consumed :p
1516 2011-04-07 16:57:15 <topi`> neither is gold...
1517 2011-04-07 16:57:48 <topi`> I would be fine trading with gold instead of the fiat currencies we use nowadays, but transporting gold can get heavy :)
1518 2011-04-07 16:57:50 <Speeder> omg
1519 2011-04-07 16:57:56 <Diablo-D3> [12:53:32] <x6763> the $4.5 million USD number is pretty much meaningless...it has no bearing on the reality of the bitcoin economy
1520 2011-04-07 16:57:58 <Diablo-D3> bullshit
1521 2011-04-07 16:58:01 <Diablo-D3> if I had half of that
1522 2011-04-07 16:58:03 <topi`> and every transaction would need to be weighed, et
1523 2011-04-07 16:58:03 <Speeder> I mean, someone must be received bitcoins in exchange of something else
1524 2011-04-07 16:58:12 <Diablo-D3> I'd be able to dedicate my life to trying to improve the world
1525 2011-04-07 16:58:14 <Speeder> who are the biggest one, that is not a exchange?
1526 2011-04-07 16:58:18 <Diablo-D3> instead of having to struggle to stay alive
1527 2011-04-07 16:58:46 <topi`> Diablo-D3: I don't have to struggle, I have a woman who goes to work and feeds me :)
1528 2011-04-07 16:58:57 <krytzz> Diablo-D3: if you had 2M btc?
1529 2011-04-07 16:58:57 <topi`> so I can dedicate my time to intellectual issues
1530 2011-04-07 16:59:09 <sipa> topi`: your mother?
1531 2011-04-07 16:59:09 <Diablo-D3> krytzz: $2.5M usd roughly.
1532 2011-04-07 16:59:15 <topi`> :D
1533 2011-04-07 16:59:28 <krytzz> Diablo-D3: with 2M btc you could do quite nothing atm :p
1534 2011-04-07 16:59:28 <Diablo-D3> krytzz: thats how much it takes for someone to live their whole life normally and not have to make another dime
1535 2011-04-07 16:59:31 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1536 2011-04-07 16:59:40 <Diablo-D3> 2M btc would be approximately....
1537 2011-04-07 17:00:15 <Diablo-D3> 200 times more than I make a year.
1538 2011-04-07 17:00:23 <x6763> Diablo-D3: i'm saying that multiplying the 5,860,050 bitcoins by approx $0.76 gives us a number that tells very little if anything about the bitcoin economy
1539 2011-04-07 17:01:38 <jaromil> sry noob question (and genjix left so ..) does bitcoind getaccountaddress returns a different hash at every new run?
1540 2011-04-07 17:02:51 <topi`> jaromil: did genjix say he would come online today?
1541 2011-04-07 17:02:56 <topi`> I have some suggestions for him
1542 2011-04-07 17:03:02 <Speeder> what someone can do with BTC right now beside gambling and toying with exchange rates?
1543 2011-04-07 17:03:14 <sipa> buy alpaca socks
1544 2011-04-07 17:03:24 devrandom has joined
1545 2011-04-07 17:03:25 <topi`> buy dog collars
1546 2011-04-07 17:03:37 <jaromil> topi`: u have an answer to my noob q?
1547 2011-04-07 17:03:37 <krytzz> and hosting services
1548 2011-04-07 17:03:52 <jaromil> topi`: he is changing location ATM i guess will be online in an hour
1549 2011-04-07 17:03:54 <x6763> Speeder: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
1550 2011-04-07 17:05:33 <topi`> jaromil: no, since I have not studied the bitcoind source code yet
1551 2011-04-07 17:05:53 <topi`> jaromil: if he needs a house to live in, maybe robin can host
1552 2011-04-07 17:05:59 bitcoiner has joined
1553 2011-04-07 17:07:02 RazielZ has joined
1554 2011-04-07 17:07:14 <mizerydearia> Anyone live nearby San Bruno, CA, Salt Lake City, Utah, Rock Springs, Wyoming, Rawlins, Wyoming, Casper, Wyoming, Midwest Wyoming or Gillette, Wyoming? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5398.0
1555 2011-04-07 17:07:32 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1557 2011-04-07 17:07:41 <jaromil> OMG i LOVE THIS http://bitcoin.modernjob.info/print.html
1558 2011-04-07 17:08:30 <BlueMatt> jaromil: nice, but would be nice to use the existing scratch off code
1559 2011-04-07 17:08:32 <krytzz> jaromil: LOL upload your walet.dat
1560 2011-04-07 17:09:58 <jgarzik> jaromil: I did the same thing, about 9 months ago.
1561 2011-04-07 17:10:14 <jgarzik> old news
1562 2011-04-07 17:10:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: actually, if it could just contain a private key + txid, that'd be perfect
1563 2011-04-07 17:10:45 <sipa> it can still have the scratchoff code in addition to that for manual entering
1564 2011-04-07 17:10:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: I prefer scratch-off, but ok
1565 2011-04-07 17:11:00 <jaromil> jgarzik: also in python? i ack'd from genjix you are ahead of most ppl, no need to remark it with me :)
1566 2011-04-07 17:11:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: ie scratch off if you have to enter it manually, scanning has a full key
1567 2011-04-07 17:11:15 m00p has joined
1568 2011-04-07 17:11:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: exactly what i mean
1569 2011-04-07 17:11:35 <BlueMatt> though it doesnt make much difference
1570 2011-04-07 17:11:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: but the QR code also behind a scratch-off area
1571 2011-04-07 17:12:00 <jgarzik> jaromil: in Perl
1572 2011-04-07 17:12:03 <sipa> so that you can effectively sell the piece of paper
1573 2011-04-07 17:12:38 <sipa> if the buyer 1) can see the scratch-off area is undamaged and 2) has trust in the issuer, he doesn't need trust in the seller anymore
1574 2011-04-07 17:13:36 <x6763> they also need to know that it's not counterfit, with random data or even nothing behind the scratch-off
1575 2011-04-07 17:14:10 <BlueMatt> well, assuming there is adequate security on the note (ie similar to game tickets or legacy currencies)
1576 2011-04-07 17:14:36 <x6763> the private key has to be hidden, but if it's hidden, how can you verify that it's really there and that you can really spend it? (maybe this is solved already, i don't know)
1577 2011-04-07 17:14:40 <sipa> x6763: of course, but that's what i mean with trust in the issuer
1578 2011-04-07 17:14:57 <sipa> you can't verify the code corresponds to what is claimed on the outside
1579 2011-04-07 17:15:11 niekie has joined
1580 2011-04-07 17:15:34 <sipa> but if there is no scratch-off area, you need both trust in the issuer and in the seller (that he didn't keep/used to the key already)
1581 2011-04-07 17:15:44 <x6763> right
1582 2011-04-07 17:15:50 <Speeder> how someone use that bitcoin bill?
1583 2011-04-07 17:16:03 <BlueMatt> Speeder: read the scratch off thread
1584 2011-04-07 17:16:09 <BlueMatt> /patch
1585 2011-04-07 17:16:13 <Speeder> where?
1586 2011-04-07 17:16:32 <sipa> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4555.0
1587 2011-04-07 17:16:40 <BlueMatt> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4555.0
1588 2011-04-07 17:16:42 <BlueMatt> damn
1589 2011-04-07 17:19:53 SykeP has joined
1590 2011-04-07 17:20:21 <Speeder> sipa ninjaed BlueMatt XD
1591 2011-04-07 17:21:39 sacarlson has joined
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1603 2011-04-07 17:42:08 <lumos> genjix, go to the supercontinent
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1607 2011-04-07 17:48:54 PLATO has joined
1608 2011-04-07 17:49:33 <PLATO> hey guys, I had coins sent to an address in a backup wallet.dat, when I switched the wallet.dat files and reopened the client, they aren't showing up
1609 2011-04-07 17:49:51 <PLATO> or, alternatively, clearcoin hasn't sent them yet
1610 2011-04-07 17:49:53 <[Tycho]> You may need to rescain.
1611 2011-04-07 17:50:00 <PLATO> https://clearcoin.appspot.com/status/r_JmWve1781LZgwMaQXuk5tj
1612 2011-04-07 17:50:03 <[Tycho]> *rescan
1613 2011-04-07 17:50:15 <PLATO> there is no rescan listed in -help
1614 2011-04-07 17:50:19 <PLATO> how do I do it
1615 2011-04-07 17:50:36 <sipa> bitcoin -rescan
1616 2011-04-07 17:51:23 <PLATO> is this a recent feature
1617 2011-04-07 17:51:38 <PLATO> realized that i might be having issues because of an old version
1618 2011-04-07 17:51:52 sacarlson has joined
1619 2011-04-07 17:51:57 <sipa> it was added in 0.3.20
1620 2011-04-07 17:52:12 <PLATO> that explains a lot, ha
1621 2011-04-07 17:52:15 <PLATO> ty
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1625 2011-04-07 17:57:02 * jgarzik should build a miner. This 5970 has been sitting here, new and in box, for weeks.
1626 2011-04-07 17:57:17 <jgarzik> Maybe if I keep it outside, the wife won't complain about the noise ;)
1627 2011-04-07 17:57:26 <Kiba> jgarzik: have you taken look at my crowdfund game project?
1628 2011-04-07 17:57:45 <topi`> jgarzik: I noticed that the 'c' algo is faster than the 4way on a Intel Xeon E7330 2.40ghz
1629 2011-04-07 17:57:48 <topi`> why is that?
1630 2011-04-07 17:58:02 <jgarzik> topi`: could be any number of reasons
1631 2011-04-07 17:58:09 <jgarzik> Kiba: no
1632 2011-04-07 17:58:15 <topi`> it's a x86_64 linux system
1633 2011-04-07 17:58:27 <jgarzik> topi`: have you tried sse2_64?
1634 2011-04-07 17:58:37 <topi`> that's not listed in '-h'
1635 2011-04-07 17:58:54 <lumos> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6OSMZmN5YQk/TKKVRtQcZNI/AAAAAAAAAa4/ixhvUF95DVk/s1600/Buck+Angel.jpg
1636 2011-04-07 17:58:55 <jgarzik> Kiba: I'm not much for games. Games I have played over the last 20 years: nethack, Twisted Metal, MtG 360
1637 2011-04-07 17:59:07 <jgarzik> topi`: install yasm >= 1.0.1 and rebuild
1638 2011-04-07 17:59:11 <topi`> it does get built and linked.
1639 2011-04-07 17:59:30 <jgarzik> topi`: an empty file is built and linked
1640 2011-04-07 17:59:36 <topi`> ok, i get it now
1641 2011-04-07 17:59:52 <lumos> Kiba, do you post your art on opengameart, i noticed you made a thread about it before me
1642 2011-04-07 17:59:52 <topi`> ar: sha256_xmm_amd64.o: No such file or directory
1643 2011-04-07 17:59:55 <Kiba> jgarzik: I guess you're not going to pledge since you have no interest
1644 2011-04-07 18:00:08 <Kiba> lumos: made what thread? I don't make art for my game
1645 2011-04-07 18:00:13 <Kiba> I generate them through code
1646 2011-04-07 18:00:17 <jed> jgarzik: twisted metal needs to come back
1647 2011-04-07 18:00:26 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1648 2011-04-07 18:00:30 <lumos> Kiba, just that they accepted bitcoin, i think its a pretty lacklustre project
1649 2011-04-07 18:00:44 <gjs278> jed twisted metal is coming out for ps3
1650 2011-04-07 18:00:47 <topi`> games in last 20 years: nethack, adom, Elite 2, EVE online
1651 2011-04-07 18:00:47 <topi`> :D
1652 2011-04-07 18:00:49 <Kiba> it's not a lackluster project, lumos
1653 2011-04-07 18:00:51 <jed> gjs278: :O
1654 2011-04-07 18:01:00 <Kiba> they pay their artists
1655 2011-04-07 18:01:02 <Kiba> ya know?
1656 2011-04-07 18:01:09 <lumos> so?
1657 2011-04-07 18:01:14 <lumos> their art is poor
1658 2011-04-07 18:01:16 <gjs278> it was at e3 2010
1659 2011-04-07 18:01:20 <lumos> and submission
1660 2011-04-07 18:01:22 <lumos> is low
1661 2011-04-07 18:01:30 <lumos> they are not building
1662 2011-04-07 18:01:34 <lumos> consistent libraries of things
1663 2011-04-07 18:01:44 <lumos> its just a mess
1664 2011-04-07 18:01:57 <lumos> also payment
1665 2011-04-07 18:02:04 <lumos> is focused too much on one person i think?
1666 2011-04-07 18:02:08 <lumos> do they pay one person per project?
1667 2011-04-07 18:02:28 <Kiba> lumos: I don't know.
1668 2011-04-07 18:02:36 <Kiba> to me, it's better than nothing
1669 2011-04-07 18:03:06 <gasteve> jgarzik: to answer your question from the other day...yes, I looked at your autotools...I have a different set of source files I needed to make it work with and had to make some changes...so that forced me to get my head wrapped around autotools...now I'm working on making the GUI work and trying to eliminate the use of -DGUI
1670 2011-04-07 18:03:16 <lumos> i think this thing is kind of lacking, because most artists make something for a specific purpose, but with this there maybe too much jumble of style if people don't contribute enough
1671 2011-04-07 18:03:52 <lumos> opengameart submissions look like 1 off hobbies
1672 2011-04-07 18:04:04 <jgarzik> gasteve: that is the goal of my autotools branch - to get bitcoin building, GUI and non-GUI, on linux and windows using the same configure script.
1673 2011-04-07 18:04:52 <sipa> gasteve: still working on reorganizing the source tree?
1674 2011-04-07 18:04:58 devrandom has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1675 2011-04-07 18:05:17 <gasteve> sipa: yes ...that's basically done but then I ran into headaches with make
1676 2011-04-07 18:05:30 <sipa> which branch/version did you start from?
1677 2011-04-07 18:05:36 <gasteve> 0.3.20
1678 2011-04-07 18:06:09 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1679 2011-04-07 18:06:53 <jgarzik> ah
1680 2011-04-07 18:07:00 <sipa> hmm, i think you'll need to pull in the current changes in git's master branch if you want to get it merged
1681 2011-04-07 18:07:04 <jgarzik> well it will probably be difficult to grab useful bits, then
1682 2011-04-07 18:07:06 <gasteve> actually 0.3.20.02
1683 2011-04-07 18:07:08 <gasteve> ccd7fe8de52bbc9210b444838eefb7ddbc880457
1684 2011-04-07 18:07:14 <gasteve> (commit = ccd7fe8de52bbc9210b444838eefb7ddbc880457)
1685 2011-04-07 18:07:17 <jgarzik> source reorg is unlikely to be merged, IMO
1686 2011-04-07 18:07:36 <jgarzik> it's like those C++ nutters who appear every month or two, and want to put every C++ class into its own header + .cpp file
1687 2011-04-07 18:07:44 * jgarzik -> facepalm
1688 2011-04-07 18:08:12 <gasteve> well, I have stuff I want to do with the client and find it pretty unwieldy as it currently is
1689 2011-04-07 18:08:27 <sipa> well i haven't seen gasteve's work of course - but a reorganisation could make even just building a lot easier
1690 2011-04-07 18:08:30 <jgarzik> naming, organization, code movement. these things excite some people and lead to long debates, but they don't really move the code forward
1691 2011-04-07 18:08:47 <gasteve> jgarzik: agreed
1692 2011-04-07 18:08:51 <jgarzik> sipa: building is trivial right now. You cannot get much easier than "gcc -o bitcoind *.cpp"
1693 2011-04-07 18:08:53 <hozer> all sound and fury, signifying nothing
1694 2011-04-07 18:08:58 <jgarzik> yep
1695 2011-04-07 18:09:01 <sipa> jgarzik: i mean memory-usage-wise
1696 2011-04-07 18:09:09 <Kiba> hozer: hey, I put up a link to my codebase for jstet
1697 2011-04-07 18:09:36 <gjs278> building is not that easy for bitcoind
1698 2011-04-07 18:09:42 <hozer> I was nosing around for bitcoin trading bot code
1699 2011-04-07 18:09:52 <Kiba> hozer: https://github.com/kiba/jstet
1700 2011-04-07 18:09:53 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah I cannot "make -j2" on my 512MB VPS. But still, that is a low priority, since most devs have RAM to spare.
1701 2011-04-07 18:09:56 <hozer> someone posted one a few weeks ago
1702 2011-04-07 18:10:17 <sipa> jgarzik: i agree
1703 2011-04-07 18:10:18 <lumos> http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1302191214909.png
1704 2011-04-07 18:10:35 <Kiba> lumos: ?
1705 2011-04-07 18:10:39 <jgarzik> This trivial Makefile, which I prefer over in-tree makefiles, illustrates how easy it is to build bitcoin:
1706 2011-04-07 18:10:40 <jgarzik> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/367361/
1707 2011-04-07 18:10:43 <gjs278> the way it targets the installation of db is wrong
1708 2011-04-07 18:10:47 <jgarzik> nothing could be more simple
1709 2011-04-07 18:10:52 <gjs278> it's supposed to do /usr/include/db4.7
1710 2011-04-07 18:11:01 <jgarzik> gjs278: I disagree
1711 2011-04-07 18:11:07 <gjs278> why
1712 2011-04-07 18:11:12 <gjs278> you can have multiple copies of db
1713 2011-04-07 18:11:13 <jgarzik> gjs278: that would break my use of db4.8 and 5.0
1714 2011-04-07 18:11:27 <jgarzik> gjs278: 4.7 is --not-- a requirement, nor should it be
1715 2011-04-07 18:11:28 <gjs278> that's fine, but targeting /usr/include/db_cxx.h
1716 2011-04-07 18:11:36 <gjs278> it doesn't even exist on some installations
1717 2011-04-07 18:11:43 <sipa> on the other hand - i do think there is room for improvement in the organisation, and if someone manages to get in organised better, i'd surely like it to get merged (although not everyone would agree probably, ...)
1718 2011-04-07 18:11:50 <gjs278> that's fine, but I've never seen it build on anything other than 4.7
1719 2011-04-07 18:12:02 <gjs278> I've tried 4.8 and it just won't run
1720 2011-04-07 18:12:22 <jgarzik> gjs278: lemme guess... either gentoo or ubuntu?
1721 2011-04-07 18:12:26 <gjs278> gentoo
1722 2011-04-07 18:12:30 <jgarzik> yeah, I figured
1723 2011-04-07 18:12:43 <gasteve> IIRC, I tried on db 4.8 on OSX ...didn't work
1724 2011-04-07 18:13:00 <jgarzik> 4.8 and 5.0 work great on debian and fedora
1725 2011-04-07 18:13:48 <gjs278> either way, you're missing the point. the point is you don't include /usr/include/db_cxx
1726 2011-04-07 18:13:54 <gjs278> you include /usr/include/dbxx
1727 2011-04-07 18:13:57 <gjs278> a specific version
1728 2011-04-07 18:14:14 <gjs278> it may not always be that dir but there's probably a pkg-config or autotool way to find it
1729 2011-04-07 18:14:37 <jgarzik> why? building with system lib is just fine.
1730 2011-04-07 18:14:54 <gjs278> there is no db_cxx.h on gentoo because you can have multiple copies
1731 2011-04-07 18:14:54 <jgarzik> no reason to lock yourself to a specific version.
1732 2011-04-07 18:15:10 <jgarzik> gjs278: which is non-standard, and one reason to avoid gentoo
1733 2011-04-07 18:15:14 <gjs278> no it's not
1734 2011-04-07 18:15:19 <gjs278> including /usr/include/db_cxx
1735 2011-04-07 18:15:25 <gjs278> when you require a specific version for a lot of systems
1736 2011-04-07 18:15:27 <gjs278> is non standard
1737 2011-04-07 18:15:43 <gjs278> there's a reason I can build apache with 4.8, svn with 4.6 and still have a working system
1738 2011-04-07 18:16:38 <Kiba> does bitcoin use the boost library beyond version 1.46?
1739 2011-04-07 18:17:04 <gjs278> I use 1.41
1740 2011-04-07 18:17:15 <sipa> it works with 1.40 as well
1741 2011-04-07 18:17:21 <Kiba> err
1742 2011-04-07 18:17:22 <jgarzik> gjs278: gentoo does not define the standard. look at what comes out of a proper installation from db tarball, and what Deb and Fedora do. They provide the -option-, but don't force you down a path. They give you choice.
1743 2011-04-07 18:17:31 <Kiba> it doesn't like boost-lib beyond version 1.45, my bad
1744 2011-04-07 18:17:57 <gasteve> jgarzik: why is it that you were trying to use autotools in the first place?
1745 2011-04-07 18:17:58 <gjs278> jgarzik please explain to me how you can require 4.7 for many systems and try to include /usr/include/db_cxx.h when you know systems can and will have multiple db's
1746 2011-04-07 18:18:15 <gjs278> because bitcoind is hardcoding itself to /usr/include/db_cxx.h
1747 2011-04-07 18:18:23 <luke-jr> gjs278: 4.8 also works
1748 2011-04-07 18:18:47 <gjs278> I'll have to try compiling again with 4.8
1749 2011-04-07 18:18:47 <Kiba> I heard that there were major changes in the API in version 1.46 for boost making it impossible to build bitcoin against 1.46
1750 2011-04-07 18:19:00 <Kiba> should that be a bug report or a feature request?
1751 2011-04-07 18:19:21 <luke-jr> gjs278: make -f makefile.unix bitcoind DEBUGFLAGS="-I/usr/include/db4.8"
1752 2011-04-07 18:19:29 <gjs278> exactly
1753 2011-04-07 18:19:44 <gjs278> /usr/include/db4.8 which is what the autotools would figure out
1754 2011-04-07 18:20:00 <luke-jr> jgarzik: how do Debian and Fedora handle multiple db versions installed concurrently?
1755 2011-04-07 18:20:03 <bitcoiner> How do I calculate how much power it cost me to run this b ?
1756 2011-04-07 18:20:33 <luke-jr> gjs278: once jgarzik is done with autotools, I'm sure you can submit a patch to detect bdb differently for Ubuntu/Gentoo
1757 2011-04-07 18:21:02 <sipa> bitcoiner: 'b' ?
1758 2011-04-07 18:21:08 <gjs278> biotch
1759 2011-04-07 18:21:50 <Kiba> I heard autotool is an abnomination
1760 2011-04-07 18:22:03 <luke-jr> Kiba: why?
1761 2011-04-07 18:22:25 <Kiba> luke-jr: because even ESR hate it
1762 2011-04-07 18:22:29 <jgarzik> luke-jr: the default is to include into /usr/include/db$VERSION... and then provide symlinks in /usr/include to ensure that the "system db" is always the latest version
1763 2011-04-07 18:22:45 <jgarzik> Kiba: ESR is an idiot
1764 2011-04-07 18:22:52 <jgarzik> Kiba: he proved that many times over, on the kernel list
1765 2011-04-07 18:22:55 <luke-jr> jgarzik: but how are those symlinks managed?
1766 2011-04-07 18:23:06 <luke-jr> jgarzik: Gentoo links the C headers, just not C++, using eselect
1767 2011-04-07 18:23:34 <jgarzik> luke-jr: OS platform's package tools, at least on sane platforms
1768 2011-04-07 18:23:45 <gjs278> so it just picks the latest version and auto symlinks it?
1769 2011-04-07 18:24:03 <luke-jr> jgarzik: sounds like the only difference between Gentoo and "sane platforms" then, is that Gentoo doesn't do the same for C++ binding
1770 2011-04-07 18:24:04 <jgarzik> gjs278: read your OS package's spec
1771 2011-04-07 18:24:04 <gjs278> and then when bitcoin goes to build, it needs to detect what version and then just use /usr/include/db$VERSION
1772 2011-04-07 18:24:09 <gjs278> and then it's solved
1773 2011-04-07 18:24:26 <gjs278> I don't have to do anything, bitcoind make will just have to include the correct db dir
1774 2011-04-07 18:24:44 <gasteve> who is ESR? (btw, autotools is quite complex...but I'd fault the underlying OSes for the abomination and the fact that something like autotools is needed...but that's a whole other matter)
1775 2011-04-07 18:24:49 <jgarzik> gjs278: great! you solved a problem after creating a problem, when it would be easier to simply use the preferred version -- a method that works automatically
1776 2011-04-07 18:24:54 <gjs278> it's the same reason I make apache with 4.8 and svn with 4.6 right now without touching anything regarding my db files
1777 2011-04-07 18:24:55 agricocb has joined
1778 2011-04-07 18:24:59 <gjs278> wow what the hell are you talking about
1779 2011-04-07 18:25:04 <gjs278> I'm talking about making it easier for people to compile
1780 2011-04-07 18:25:11 <gjs278> so they don't have to modify their db files
1781 2011-04-07 18:25:14 <luke-jr> gasteve: Eric Raymond, gpsd maintainer/author, neo-pagan, and "Open Source" inventor
1782 2011-04-07 18:25:22 <gasteve> ah, yes
1783 2011-04-07 18:25:44 <jgarzik> gjs278: hardcoding use of 4.7 will break things
1784 2011-04-07 18:25:46 <gjs278> the method that actually works is including /usr/include/db$VERSION in the configure options
1785 2011-04-07 18:25:48 <gjs278> no
1786 2011-04-07 18:25:50 <gjs278> don't hardcode to 4.7
1787 2011-04-07 18:25:59 <gjs278> hardcoding is the problem
1788 2011-04-07 18:26:01 <topi`> autotools is an abomination to hack because it's done in M4 :)
1789 2011-04-07 18:26:11 <topi`> only its mother could love m4
1790 2011-04-07 18:26:12 <gjs278> I'm just saying, in the autotools, try and detect the db versions dir
1791 2011-04-07 18:26:13 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1792 2011-04-07 18:26:18 <gjs278> and avoid db_cxx.h if possible
1793 2011-04-07 18:26:20 <luke-jr> people attack autotools because they don't understand it. same as with Perl.
1794 2011-04-07 18:26:30 <bitcoiner> sipa this bitcoin
1795 2011-04-07 18:26:31 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yep
1796 2011-04-07 18:27:09 <gasteve> so, jgarzik, why again did you feel the need to move to autotools?
1797 2011-04-07 18:27:50 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> gasteve: that is the goal of my autotools branch - to get bitcoin building, GUI and non-GUI, on linux and windows using the same configure script.
1798 2011-04-07 18:27:50 <luke-jr> gjs278: the reality is, Gentoo has a unique policy here, and also has the tools to work with it
1799 2011-04-07 18:27:57 <luke-jr> gjs278: just use the db-use eclass
1800 2011-04-07 18:28:03 <sipa> bitcoiner: and by run, you mean mining?
1801 2011-04-07 18:28:06 <gjs278> I do
1802 2011-04-07 18:28:26 <gasteve> (I started down that path because I thought it might be a way of simplifying some things in the makefile related breaking code up into more files...little did I know what I was getting into!
1803 2011-04-07 18:28:31 <gjs278> but it still tried to grab /usr/include/db_cxx until I go with the debug thing
1804 2011-04-07 18:29:27 <jgarzik> topi`: yah, the implementation codebase of autoconf+automake+libtool is super-ugly, I agree.
1805 2011-04-07 18:29:33 <luke-jr> gjs278: I'm sure jgarzik's autotools will provide a convenient way to use db-use.eclass, by having some option to add include dirs
1806 2011-04-07 18:29:38 <jgarzik> nevertheless, autotools really does work everywhere
1807 2011-04-07 18:29:48 <jgarzik> well integrated with existing pkg managers, more importantly
1808 2011-04-07 18:29:56 <gjs278> I think the check flag is like -ldb4.7 or -ldb-4.7
1809 2011-04-07 18:29:58 <gasteve> jgarzik: you made an argument earlier that the build is currently simple... you don't think the introduction of autotools is overkill just to have a single set of config/makefiles for building on different platforms?
1810 2011-04-07 18:30:11 <gjs278> but there's also a way to grab the default preferred
1811 2011-04-07 18:30:16 <luke-jr> gjs278: merely inheriting db-use does nothing, you need to actually tell the build system the info it gets
1812 2011-04-07 18:31:03 <jgarzik> luke-jr: my autotools will pick system bdb by default... but that is only the default. You can always override that with a few simple params.
1813 2011-04-07 18:31:08 * gasteve wonders whether autotools has some advantages though...like being able to create rpm or apt packages
1814 2011-04-07 18:31:10 <jgarzik> if you prefer 4.7, for example
1815 2011-04-07 18:31:15 <jgarzik> gasteve: precisely
1816 2011-04-07 18:31:32 <jgarzik> gasteve: every OS under the sun already knows how to integrate an autotools pkg with the OS-specific pkg management software
1817 2011-04-07 18:31:38 <sipa> i think some form of auto-configuration will be inevitable
1818 2011-04-07 18:31:49 <gasteve> ok...well, by the end of the weekend I'll get my stuff published and you can rip it apart ...lol
1819 2011-04-07 18:32:03 <gjs278> I think it should pick 4.7 if 4.7 is available by default because some people are still having issues compiling with 4.8 or whatever and that may be their latest
1820 2011-04-07 18:32:07 <BlueMatt> has anyone actually written autotools building for bitcoin?
1821 2011-04-07 18:32:16 <luke-jr> gasteve: the current makefiles are terribly broken
1822 2011-04-07 18:32:17 <gjs278> and then if someone wants to go higher than 4.7 they specify it that way
1823 2011-04-07 18:32:28 <luke-jr> gjs278: what issues?
1824 2011-04-07 18:32:37 <gjs278> I just tried 4.8 and it was no go
1825 2011-04-07 18:32:41 <luke-jr> gjs278: why?
1826 2011-04-07 18:32:43 <luke-jr> I use 4.8 all the time
1827 2011-04-07 18:32:48 <gjs278> let me grab the message
1828 2011-04-07 18:32:50 <jgarzik> gasteve: I ported entirety of the MandrakeSoft linux distro to Alpha platform. Getting everything to build with autotools was trivial. Fix one bug, and that fixes 1,000 packages. 90% of my time in that project was spent fixing up makefiles in non-autotools projects.
1829 2011-04-07 18:33:03 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes, #autotools in my git
1830 2011-04-07 18:33:28 <BlueMatt> ah missed that
1831 2011-04-07 18:33:32 <gjs278> http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4874/screenshothes.png luke-jr that's what I get
1832 2011-04-07 18:33:43 <gasteve> jgarzik: good enough reason for me (just want to make sure I wasn't wasting time learning/using autotools)
1833 2011-04-07 18:33:47 <luke-jr> jgarzik: btw, at least I feel it would be nice to have your git repo report to CIA-- would you mind?
1834 2011-04-07 18:34:15 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: #autotools builds bitcoind. it won't become a pull request until it can also build bitcoin (GUI version).
1835 2011-04-07 18:34:21 <luke-jr> gjs278: I wonder if it's a db compatibility issue. I've *always* used 4.8
1836 2011-04-07 18:34:29 <jgarzik> luke-jr: "your git repo" is rather vague
1837 2011-04-07 18:34:33 <gjs278> maybe it's because my original files are 4.7
1838 2011-04-07 18:34:41 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ah, ok so work is definitely still very much needed
1839 2011-04-07 18:34:43 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it is? I mean yours specifically.
1840 2011-04-07 18:34:59 <jgarzik> luke-jr: how many git repos do I have? and how many branches within those repos?
1841 2011-04-07 18:35:04 <gasteve> I should have it (autotools) building bitcoin GUI tonight btw ...but, that's with the reorganized sources
1842 2011-04-07 18:35:17 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I only know of your one on GitHub
1843 2011-04-07 18:35:27 <luke-jr> jgarzik: CIA is all-or-nothing with regard to branches, usually
1844 2011-04-07 18:35:42 llama has joined
1845 2011-04-07 18:35:45 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I have at least six repos on github. "your repo" is thus vague.
1846 2011-04-07 18:35:55 llama has quit (Client Quit)
1847 2011-04-07 18:35:56 <luke-jr> 6 bitcoin repos? O.o
1848 2011-04-07 18:36:03 <gasteve> what is CIA? (thought you were making some joke)
1849 2011-04-07 18:36:11 * luke-jr gestures toward CIA-89
1850 2011-04-07 18:36:17 <BlueMatt> the bot that announces commits
1851 2011-04-07 18:36:18 <luke-jr> ;;last --from CIA-89 --noliit
1852 2011-04-07 18:36:18 <gribble> (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
1853 2011-04-07 18:36:19 <luke-jr> ;;last --from CIA-89 --nolimit
1854 2011-04-07 18:36:20 <gribble> Error: I couldn't find a message matching that criteria in my history of 1000 messages.
1855 2011-04-07 18:36:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr, gjs278: db4.7 __data__ files are upwards compatible, but the log files etc. are not. You must delete database/*, __db* etc. when going 4.7 -> 4.8, otherwise bitcoin will crash.
1856 2011-04-07 18:36:30 <gasteve> ah
1857 2011-04-07 18:36:34 <jgarzik> gjs278 probably did not delete that stuff
1858 2011-04-07 18:36:38 <jgarzik> and thus saw the familiar crash
1859 2011-04-07 18:36:39 <gjs278> gotcha
1860 2011-04-07 18:36:50 <gjs278> I'll try it out
1861 2011-04-07 18:36:55 <luke-jr> jgarzik: https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin
1862 2011-04-07 18:37:02 <jgarzik> gjs278: ideally, you should delete everything except the wallet.dat
1863 2011-04-07 18:37:05 <gjs278> yes
1864 2011-04-07 18:37:58 <jgarzik> no idea why bitcoin crashes, either, because bdb supports noticing older data formats in the logs. it supports triggering an upgrade.
1865 2011-04-07 18:38:05 <jgarzik> but, it does.
1866 2011-04-07 18:38:14 <jgarzik> luke-jr: sure
1867 2011-04-07 18:39:59 <luke-jr> jgarzik: does GitHub support that sensibly, or do you want me to do it with BitGit?
1868 2011-04-07 18:40:14 <luke-jr> (I know GitHub has some kind of CIA support, but not sure if it supports modules)
1869 2011-04-07 18:40:27 <jgarzik> luke-jr: no idea what "CIA support" is
1870 2011-04-07 18:40:33 <luke-jr> ok, I'll do it then
1871 2011-04-07 18:41:13 <jed> jgarzik: postcommit to an IRC bot, IRC bot chirps it here
1872 2011-04-07 18:41:17 <gjs278> COMMIT RECEIVED: ADDED NEWLINE TO END OF EVERY FILE
1873 2011-04-07 18:41:24 <gjs278> that one
1874 2011-04-07 18:42:14 <luke-jr> except not ugly
1875 2011-04-07 18:46:20 Roo_ has left ()
1876 2011-04-07 18:46:28 <afed_> ;;bt,stats
1877 2011-04-07 18:46:29 <gribble> Error: "bt,stats" is not a valid command.
1878 2011-04-07 18:46:32 <afed_> ;;bc,stats
1879 2011-04-07 18:46:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117210 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1733 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 21 hours, 56 minutes, and 42 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 83511.28273931
1880 2011-04-07 18:48:40 <luke-jr> gasteve: [16:19:46] <CIA-30> Luke Dashjr * re39a44934d72 gentoo/dev-python/bitcoinrpc/ (Manifest bitcoinrpc-0.3.ebuild bitcoinrpc-9999.ebuild): dev-python/bitcoinrpc: set HOMEPAGE http://tinyurl.com/6dbluf2
1881 2011-04-07 18:49:08 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1882 2011-04-07 18:49:41 <gasteve> yeah, nice
1883 2011-04-07 18:51:20 <gasteve> are those sent to this channel? or another channel?
1884 2011-04-07 18:51:27 <luke-jr> that was from #bitcoin-gentoo
1885 2011-04-07 18:51:32 <luke-jr> I think they're formatted slightly different here
1886 2011-04-07 18:52:04 <gasteve> why a specific channel for gentoo?
1887 2011-04-07 18:52:16 <luke-jr> dunno
1888 2011-04-07 18:53:53 <gjs278> we have to contain the elitism in one specific pool, don't want to drown everyone who is still used to binary packages for installation
1889 2011-04-07 18:54:47 taco_the_paco has joined
1890 2011-04-07 18:55:27 <gasteve> lol
1891 2011-04-07 18:55:51 lyspooner has joined
1892 2011-04-07 18:56:30 <Speeder> the best IRC quote I ever saw, was someone complaining that people on #gentoo was ignoring him.
1893 2011-04-07 18:56:39 <Speeder> And someone else replied: Don't worry, they are compiling the awnser.
1894 2011-04-07 18:56:45 <luke-jr> lol
1895 2011-04-07 18:57:17 <topi`> :D
1896 2011-04-07 18:57:34 * jgarzik wonders if gentoo uses "-march=native" yet
1897 2011-04-07 18:58:08 <gjs278> I do
1898 2011-04-07 18:58:21 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's up to you
1899 2011-04-07 18:58:27 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it breaks some things though
1900 2011-04-07 18:58:33 <gjs278> also wtf is this $(CXX) -c $(CXXFLAGS) -msse2 -O3 -march=amdfam10 -o $@ $<
1901 2011-04-07 18:58:44 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: oh, I don't give a damn about gentoo. Just idly wondering.
1902 2011-04-07 18:58:46 <gjs278> why do we have that march hardcoded into the makefile
1903 2011-04-07 18:58:52 <jgarzik> seeing as gentoo are rebuild fanatics
1904 2011-04-07 18:59:08 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, actually the only thing i can think of that breaks is distcc
1905 2011-04-07 18:59:19 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: well, yeah...
1906 2011-04-07 18:59:19 <gjs278> yeah I've never had anything break with native
1907 2011-04-07 18:59:40 <jgarzik> gjs278: you want my #remove-4way branch :)
1908 2011-04-07 19:00:02 <gjs278> lol 4way
1909 2011-04-07 19:00:11 <jgarzik> better than 3way, don't ya know
1910 2011-04-07 19:00:14 <gjs278> 4way gone, all cpu mining gone from this thing
1911 2011-04-07 19:00:34 <gjs278> I just use the cpuminer on machines that need to generate cpu
1912 2011-04-07 19:00:34 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I don't, because it doesn't detect my CPU properly I think
1913 2011-04-07 19:00:37 <Speeder> someone ever made a CPU miner faster than a GPU miner???
1914 2011-04-07 19:00:45 <Speeder> (maybe using Cell? O.o)
1915 2011-04-07 19:01:14 <sipa> some cpu's a are definitely faster than some gpu's
1916 2011-04-07 19:01:28 <luke-jr> Speeder: my CPU miner is faster than a lot of people's GPU miners :P
1917 2011-04-07 19:01:40 <luke-jr> Speeder: but Cell sucks ;)
1918 2011-04-07 19:01:57 <Speeder> luke-jr: you use what CPU and software?
1919 2011-04-07 19:01:59 <jgarzik> Speeder: my CPU miner is faster than ancient NV GPUs
1920 2011-04-07 19:02:09 <gjs278> yeah my cpu beat out the nvidia 9600
1921 2011-04-07 19:02:10 <luke-jr> Speeder: i5-2400 + cpuminer sse2_64
1922 2011-04-07 19:02:18 <Speeder> humm..
1923 2011-04-07 19:02:24 <luke-jr> 14 MH/s from that
1924 2011-04-07 19:02:33 <jgarzik> quote, "Facebookâs data center has no air cooling systems. It is cooled with outside air. Walls eliminate water particles to only get the cool air. There is no duct work in the data center."
1925 2011-04-07 19:02:38 <luke-jr> when/if AVX gets implemented, benchmarks suggest it should triple
1926 2011-04-07 19:02:41 <jgarzik> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/facebook-open-sources-its-server-data-center-designs-hardware-fallout-to-follow/47045?tag=nl.e589
1927 2011-04-07 19:03:48 <topi`> Speeder: remember, Cell is a 5-year old CPU design
1928 2011-04-07 19:04:05 <Speeder> topi`: indeed.
1929 2011-04-07 19:04:15 <Speeder> but powerPC is still better than x86 in my opinion
1930 2011-04-07 19:04:26 <topi`> using modern processes, it would be entirely possible to cram 64 cell SPUs onto a single chip and *that* would be very fast for SHA
1931 2011-04-07 19:04:29 <Speeder> (cell is powerPC... as is XBOX and Wii processors too... yep, PowerPC refuse to die)
1932 2011-04-07 19:04:47 <luke-jr> Speeder: PowerPC is better, but it maxed out at what? 1 GHz?
1933 2011-04-07 19:04:56 <luke-jr> Speeder: Cell is NOT PowerPC
1934 2011-04-07 19:05:05 <Speeder> it is... sorta
1935 2011-04-07 19:05:07 <luke-jr> only the core that controlled the SPUs was
1936 2011-04-07 19:05:29 <phantomcircuit> cell is powerpc + SIMD
1937 2011-04-07 19:05:35 <luke-jr> Speeder: I would personally love to see Intel or AMD release a PowerPC microcode for their CPUs
1938 2011-04-07 19:05:38 <Speeder> I wonder if someone will make another cool CPUs based on non-x86
1939 2011-04-07 19:05:44 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: there are Cell laptops that use an x86 core
1940 2011-04-07 19:05:46 <topi`> SPU is not exactly a SIMD in the strict sense
1941 2011-04-07 19:06:01 <topi`> because every SPU can be programmed in an individual way
1942 2011-04-07 19:06:22 <Speeder> beside ARM (that is ridicously popular) and MIPS (that seemly many chinese companies use in their devices)
1943 2011-04-07 19:06:32 <luke-jr> Speeder: MIPS is free
1944 2011-04-07 19:06:37 <luke-jr> sortof
1945 2011-04-07 19:06:37 <topi`> *that* is also the reason for the flexibility of the CELL
1946 2011-04-07 19:07:42 <topi`> luke-jr: it would be beneficial (from hw frontend point of view) to parse PPC microcode in Intel CPU instead of x86 ... because x86 is variable-length instructions
1947 2011-04-07 19:08:00 <topi`> hats off for the intel designers for achieving such a feat
1948 2011-04-07 19:08:10 <luke-jr> topi`: they did?
1949 2011-04-07 19:08:33 * luke-jr wonders if Intel CPUs use DRM to control microcode
1950 2011-04-07 19:08:34 <bitcoiner> sipa yes
1951 2011-04-07 19:08:42 <topi`> well, the intel core cpu's have reasonably efficient frontends to decode x86 insns
1952 2011-04-07 19:08:50 <luke-jr> oh, sure
1953 2011-04-07 19:09:15 <luke-jr> but I bet there'd be some performance improvement to replace it w/ PPC
1954 2011-04-07 19:09:26 <jgarzik> hozer: mind if I ask you some openSRS questions, in private?
1955 2011-04-07 19:09:30 <luke-jr> IIRC, PPC also allows *real* mixing of 32 and 64-bit applications
1956 2011-04-07 19:10:24 <topi`> luke-jr: indeed, and the technical reason is that the register layouts of 32 and 64 bit modes are mostly similar
1957 2011-04-07 19:10:43 <topi`> so there's very tiny cost of the mode switch
1958 2011-04-07 19:10:52 <luke-jr> topi`: I meant ABI-wise
1959 2011-04-07 19:11:22 <luke-jr> eg, a 64-bit application can link to a 32-bit library directly
1960 2011-04-07 19:11:28 <topi`> yeah
1961 2011-04-07 19:11:54 <topi`> don't know if it works in current linux implementations. but this is how OSX 32/64bit works
1962 2011-04-07 19:11:57 <topi`> for ppc
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1965 2011-04-07 19:12:57 <sipa> on x86/x86_64 that's not possible
1966 2011-04-07 19:13:11 <sipa> you're either in 32-bit or 64-bit mode
1967 2011-04-07 19:13:42 df_ has joined
1968 2011-04-07 19:13:55 <jgarzik> now that I've been using JSON for a while, I wonder why I ever liked XML? Every XML API encountered today is bloated and annoying.
1969 2011-04-07 19:15:43 <gjs278> I like the human readable aspect to xml in the browser
1970 2011-04-07 19:16:02 <gjs278> where it's all blocked together and indented properly
1971 2011-04-07 19:16:09 <gjs278> as opposed to the json always being one giant line
1972 2011-04-07 19:16:29 <jgarzik> that's a function of newlines :) same could be said for either
1973 2011-04-07 19:16:48 * jgarzik bets FF and IE have JSON pretty-printers buried in there somewhere
1974 2011-04-07 19:17:00 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1975 2011-04-07 19:17:20 <luke-jr> IE? O.o
1976 2011-04-07 19:18:40 <gjs278> well, if you use an xml library, you generally always run it through keepWhiteSpace but I guess you could give me a one line xml file
1977 2011-04-07 19:18:58 <topi`> has anyone thought of compiling a version of bitcoin for Android?
1978 2011-04-07 19:19:15 <luke-jr> topi`: you can't just compile it for Android
1979 2011-04-07 19:19:26 <luke-jr> topi`: and there are 2-3 Android UIs out there already
1980 2011-04-07 19:19:27 <gjs278> your best bet would to be using a web service
1981 2011-04-07 19:19:41 <gjs278> then any phone can do it
1982 2011-04-07 19:20:38 <luke-jr> at the cost of efficiency
1983 2011-04-07 19:20:50 <luke-jr> and no, most phones can't do web
1984 2011-04-07 19:20:58 jackSmith has joined
1985 2011-04-07 19:20:58 <luke-jr> you'd need J2ME for them
1986 2011-04-07 19:21:25 <gjs278> I thought android had java
1987 2011-04-07 19:21:36 <luke-jr> Android != any phone
1988 2011-04-07 19:21:39 <gjs278> but aren't there any services with static pages for managing a bitcoin wallet
1989 2011-04-07 19:21:45 <gjs278> are they all java based?
1990 2011-04-07 19:21:53 <luke-jr> afaik, none are java based
1991 2011-04-07 19:22:00 <topi`> luke-jr: I know, I meant that maybe someone would start developing one for Android
1992 2011-04-07 19:22:06 <gjs278> ok... so what do you need J2ME for then lol
1993 2011-04-07 19:22:08 <luke-jr> they're all static or XHR
1994 2011-04-07 19:22:14 <luke-jr> gjs278: for phones
1995 2011-04-07 19:22:16 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * r828b06a6918b intersango/cron/bankd/parse_deposits.php: using statuses for bank deposit parsing, and accept other formats. http://tinyurl.com/3b3n3nx
1996 2011-04-07 19:22:28 <gjs278> so you need a browser
1997 2011-04-07 19:22:35 <luke-jr> gjs278: most phones don't have a browser
1998 2011-04-07 19:22:35 <gjs278> and you can access the sites that hold your wallet for you
1999 2011-04-07 19:22:39 <gjs278> ok
2000 2011-04-07 19:22:41 <gjs278> well
2001 2011-04-07 19:22:43 <gjs278> anyone with a smartphone
2002 2011-04-07 19:22:44 <gjs278> has one
2003 2011-04-07 19:22:50 <luke-jr> sure, but not everyone has smartphones
2004 2011-04-07 19:23:01 <gjs278> well he's not asking to access bitcoin on his pocketwatch
2005 2011-04-07 19:23:03 <topi`> hold on, is it possible to share your .wallet between your desktop and your phone?
2006 2011-04-07 19:23:11 <luke-jr> topi`: not really
2007 2011-04-07 19:23:11 <topi`> IF both of them would be running bitcoin
2008 2011-04-07 19:23:15 <luke-jr> topi`: you don't want to, either
2009 2011-04-07 19:23:20 <gjs278> of course people with non smartphones aren't going to expect to use bitcoin
2010 2011-04-07 19:23:21 <topi`> why not?
2011 2011-04-07 19:23:35 <luke-jr> topi`: if someone steals your phone, do you really want them to have unlimited access to all your money?
2012 2011-04-07 19:23:52 <luke-jr> gjs278: bad assumption
2013 2011-04-07 19:23:54 <grbgout> It makes more sense for your phone to have its own wallet that you transfer funds to from your 'main' wallet.
2014 2011-04-07 19:23:59 <gasteve> human readability of xml: that's an argument that annoys me...as if the 0's and 1's in ASCII code are any more or less readable than the 0's and 1's in any other format
2015 2011-04-07 19:24:13 <gjs278> it's not a bad assumption, if I have a nokia phone from 7 years ago that can't even browse online, who is going to expect to have bitcoin on it
2016 2011-04-07 19:24:18 <luke-jr> grbgout: it makes more sense to just run a GUI on your phone that remotely accesses your main wallet
2017 2011-04-07 19:24:27 <grbgout> luke-jr: that too
2018 2011-04-07 19:24:49 <luke-jr> gjs278: all the major cell carriers still have data service for dumb phones at 1/3 the cost
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2020 2011-04-07 19:24:57 <gjs278> yeah
2021 2011-04-07 19:25:43 <topi`> luke-jr: how can you remotely access your "main" wallet if your desktop is behind a NAT like most ppl are?
2022 2011-04-07 19:25:47 <gjs278> and if they don't even have apps on them... well I don't think anyone is going to expect bitcoin to install
2023 2011-04-07 19:25:58 <gjs278> put it on dropbox or somewhere reachable
2024 2011-04-07 19:26:05 <luke-jr> topi`: destroy the NAT, UPnP, IPv6, mybitcoin-like
2025 2011-04-07 19:26:16 <luke-jr> gjs278: they do have apps, J2ME
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2027 2011-04-07 19:26:36 <gjs278> when someone comes in here and asks for bitcoin on a phone that doesn't have a browser, send them my direction
2028 2011-04-07 19:26:38 <gjs278> until then I don't care
2029 2011-04-07 19:27:06 <topi`> well, the "browser" solution requires some trust towards the site that runs the bitcoin service.
2030 2011-04-07 19:27:15 <luke-jr> topi`: 4G basically requires IPv6
2031 2011-04-07 19:27:15 <topi`> I don't have that trust, that's why I want an app running on my smartphone
2032 2011-04-07 19:27:23 <gjs278> yeah that's true
2033 2011-04-07 19:27:58 <gasteve> why would you trust a native app any more than a web app? (sure, there's a little more scrutiny, but I still wouldn't trust it implicitly)
2034 2011-04-07 19:28:04 <topi`> I just want to reiterate that in MY humble opinion, bitcoin won't catch fire among the public UNTIL there's an iphone app for it :D
2035 2011-04-07 19:28:06 <luke-jr> topi`: fine, then run it there. and don't complain when your battery is smaller and bill is bigger.
2036 2011-04-07 19:28:26 <topi`> gasteve: at least you have the warm, fuzzy feeling about running it locally :)
2037 2011-04-07 19:29:02 <gasteve> I do prefer native apps to browser apps all things being equal...don't get me wrong
2038 2011-04-07 19:29:21 <topi`> luke-jr: I think an ARM core is perfectly capable of doing efficiently those public-key signings that the bitcoin client needs to do (excluding mining)
2039 2011-04-07 19:29:52 <luke-jr> topi`: at the cost of battery life; but more importantly, constantly downloading blocks is going to use the radio
2040 2011-04-07 19:30:04 <krytzz> gasteve: if you host your web app yourself there is no difference
2041 2011-04-07 19:30:08 <luke-jr> and more bandwidth
2042 2011-04-07 19:30:29 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2043 2011-04-07 19:30:34 <luke-jr> krytzz: webapps are still going to be inefficient on the wire
2044 2011-04-07 19:30:40 <krytzz> right
2045 2011-04-07 19:31:00 <topi`> luke-jr: are there any estimates how much traffic per hour the bitcoind creates?
2046 2011-04-07 19:31:23 <krytzz> just test it :)
2047 2011-04-07 19:31:49 <luke-jr> topi`: no. it varies. a lot. over time.
2048 2011-04-07 19:32:19 <topi`> I need to start measuring my outbound traffic
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2056 2011-04-07 19:43:58 <mizerydearia> Wooooo http://media.witcoin.com/p/988/BItcoin-presentation-at-EPCA 6:40+
2057 2011-04-07 19:44:08 <[Tycho]> http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.214117072.jpg
2058 2011-04-07 19:44:36 <mizerydearia> Iirc, a month or so ago someone mentioned here about referencing witcoin in their talk. I forgot who that was. Does anyone remember?
2059 2011-04-07 19:45:03 <lyspooner> mizeryderia, was it genjix?
2060 2011-04-07 19:45:12 <mizerydearia> lyspooner, mm, I'm not sure
2061 2011-04-07 19:47:29 chmod755 has joined
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2065 2011-04-07 19:49:55 <jaromil> topi`: what about a meeting sometime this weekend?
2066 2011-04-07 19:51:06 <jaromil> with anyone else here who is in a'dam, also genjix i guess likes to be there
2067 2011-04-07 19:53:49 <gasteve> heh...I don't think a lot of those people in the audience got it
2068 2011-04-07 19:55:44 <grbgout> I certainly didn't >_>
2069 2011-04-07 19:56:10 <grbgout> er, although I'm commenting on jaromil's "with anyone else..." line.
2070 2011-04-07 19:56:31 <grbgout> [Tycho]: awesome. Are they conductive?
2071 2011-04-07 19:56:34 <gasteve> no, I meant that video
2072 2011-04-07 19:57:03 <grbgout> gasteve: which video would that be? The one that used to be on the old bitcoin.org site?
2073 2011-04-07 19:57:27 <gasteve> "mizerydearia: Wooooo http://media.witcoin.com/p/988/BItcoin-presentation-at-EPCA 6:40+"
2074 2011-04-07 19:57:43 <mizerydearia> That's genjix
2075 2011-04-07 19:57:52 <mizerydearia> lyspooner, You were correct.
2076 2011-04-07 19:58:16 <lyspooner> mizerydearia: pay me a micropayment for my services
2077 2011-04-07 19:58:18 <lyspooner> get wit it
2078 2011-04-07 19:58:26 <mizerydearia> lyspooner, Sure ^_^ What is yuor userid #?
2079 2011-04-07 19:58:28 * grbgout chuckles
2080 2011-04-07 19:58:43 * lyspooner checks his pockets for a userid
2081 2011-04-07 20:01:35 <gasteve> I don't think he could have painted bitcoin in a more threatening light to that audience
2082 2011-04-07 20:02:51 <chmod755> gasteve: why? everybody wants drugs, porn and gambling...
2083 2011-04-07 20:04:21 m00p has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2084 2011-04-07 20:04:43 <gasteve> he highlighted every illegal use of bitcoins, how bitcoins wrestle control away from the banking system, etc...these are people that rely on the current establishment banking system for their livelihood
2085 2011-04-07 20:05:05 m00p has joined
2086 2011-04-07 20:06:09 <lyspooner> gasteve that sounds great
2087 2011-04-07 20:07:49 <topi`> gasteve: I love how some of the faces in the audience seem outright staring in disbelief :)
2088 2011-04-07 20:07:53 <gasteve> great if you want to stir the hornets nest
2089 2011-04-07 20:08:13 <topi`> gasteve: do you have some bad thoughts about the hornets?
2090 2011-04-07 20:08:28 <topi`> maybe a big bank decides to join the net, in order to overrun it?
2091 2011-04-07 20:09:25 <gasteve> sure...the best thing for bitcoin in my opinion is to attract the interest of the people that want to use it...not those that would seek to co-opt, control, or destroy it
2092 2011-04-07 20:10:00 <topi`> I think basically you are right. that bitcoin is at its best when it acts as a medium for two individuals to exchange
2093 2011-04-07 20:10:32 <mizerydearia> gasteve, businessmen consume drugs, porn and gambling too. They aren't magically segregated from nonbusiness/unprofessional people
2094 2011-04-07 20:10:39 <mizerydearia> They are merely more successful at not getting caught
2095 2011-04-07 20:10:55 <gasteve> that's a whole different subject
2096 2011-04-07 20:10:59 <mizerydearia> ^_^
2097 2011-04-07 20:11:16 <mizerydearia> the point is
2098 2011-04-07 20:11:31 <mizerydearia> there's no reason to try to hide it or not mention it simply because the audience is dressed in business suits
2099 2011-04-07 20:11:37 <gasteve> those people we're attending a conference concerning payment systems...people in that industry are very much joined at the hip with the big banks
2100 2011-04-07 20:11:53 <mizerydearia> well
2101 2011-04-07 20:12:09 <mizerydearia> consider it a gesture of showing them what the future will offer
2102 2011-04-07 20:12:15 <gasteve> hehe
2103 2011-04-07 20:12:17 <mizerydearia> and that they're welcome to participate if they want to
2104 2011-04-07 20:12:28 <mizerydearia> and if banks fail, then there's no excuse for them since they knew of bitcoin\
2105 2011-04-07 20:12:41 <gasteve> a sort of "fuck you and there's nothing you can do about it"
2106 2011-04-07 20:13:26 <mizerydearia> Well, otherwise it's preserve the banks, preserve slavery, preserve war, etc
2107 2011-04-07 20:15:19 <topi`> jaromil: I'll be away in Eindhoven for Saturday, but otherwise a good idea! :)
2108 2011-04-07 20:15:37 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2109 2011-04-07 20:15:50 <gasteve> I'm just saying this is an audience not likely to be full of early adopters ...nor are they likely to be friendly to bitcoin ...better off presenting at TED or some VC oriented conference
2110 2011-04-07 20:16:31 <mizerydearia> a TED conference would be interesting
2111 2011-04-07 20:16:40 jackSmith has joined
2112 2011-04-07 20:16:51 <mizerydearia> However, there shouldn't be consideration of discrimination on who and who not to present to
2113 2011-04-07 20:17:08 <mizerydearia> there is no market segmentation or marketing to specific targets/audiences for bitcoin
2114 2011-04-07 20:17:18 <mizerydearia> bitcoin is for everyone
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2117 2011-04-07 20:19:58 <topi`> ack
2118 2011-04-07 20:20:10 <gasteve> yes, that's idealistic...I would just hate to see bitcoin come to an early demise...it is very likely to be perceived (and actually be) very threating to a very powerful cartel of international banks and businesses
2119 2011-04-07 20:20:50 <topi`> gasteve: *even* if bitcoin would eventually head into a demise, there would be a phoenix rising from the ashes, a revamped p2p currency
2120 2011-04-07 20:21:11 <sipa> maybe
2121 2011-04-07 20:21:20 <topi`> if the concept is sound, then there's nothing to worry about. or?
2122 2011-04-07 20:21:53 <gasteve> maybe, but what happens if palladium type hardware security devices are mandated in most countries?
2123 2011-04-07 20:22:10 <gasteve> I'd also prefer this change happen sooner rather than later
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2125 2011-04-07 20:22:17 <topi`> palladium was planned to be introduced already back in 2004 ... but it somehow never materialized
2126 2011-04-07 20:22:29 <topi`> although the Fritz chips were real and existed
2127 2011-04-07 20:22:41 <sipa> i don't see the problem?
2128 2011-04-07 20:23:01 <gasteve> even if it does survive in the long run, that doesn't mean that powerful interests can't make many peoples' lives miserable and delay things for many years or decades
2129 2011-04-07 20:23:02 <sipa> imaybe i'm not well informed
2130 2011-04-07 20:23:17 <topi`> well, Palladium lets the centralized powers take hold of your computer.
2131 2011-04-07 20:23:41 <topi`> gasteve: indeed, and THAT'S why we absolutely need Open Hardware
2132 2011-04-07 20:23:54 <gasteve> no argument there
2133 2011-04-07 20:26:11 <sipa> topi`: from what i understand, it allows trusted applications to use a private key stored in hardware, without reveiling that key?
2134 2011-04-07 20:26:56 <sipa> i'm quite strongly against DRM, and attempts to prevent users to do what they want with their own hardware
2135 2011-04-07 20:27:24 <sipa> but i don't think that system (at least, what i understand from wikipedia) would be an issue for something bitcoin
2136 2011-04-07 20:27:33 <Kiba> first
2137 2011-04-07 20:27:35 <Kiba> they ignore
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2139 2011-04-07 20:27:38 <Kiba> you
2140 2011-04-07 20:27:47 <Kiba> they laugh at you
2141 2011-04-07 20:27:52 <Kiba> they fight you
2142 2011-04-07 20:27:57 <Kiba> then you win
2143 2011-04-07 20:27:58 Beremat has joined
2144 2011-04-07 20:28:08 <gasteve> yes, but doing that and making it tamper resistant can be the basis of a completely secure OS...and if that OS is controlled by a mega-corp (or gov't) could be made such that you can't do certain things (like copy DRMed stuff or run "untrusted" software like bitcoin)
2145 2011-04-07 20:28:54 <gasteve> the tech in and of itself isn't bad...it's a matter of who controls it (i.e. individuals or govt)
2146 2011-04-07 20:29:31 <gasteve> Kiba: I love that notion...I just prefer to skip to the I win part if I can
2147 2011-04-07 20:29:40 alkor has joined
2148 2011-04-07 20:30:06 <luke-jr> mizerydearia: don't assume everyone is a crackhead/pervert/gambler
2149 2011-04-07 20:30:49 alkor has quit (Client Quit)
2150 2011-04-07 20:31:48 <sipa> gasteve: such a system where a mega-corp decides what you can run on your device already exists
2151 2011-04-07 20:31:54 <sipa> and it's hugely popular
2152 2011-04-07 20:31:56 <luke-jr> chmod755: ^
2153 2011-04-07 20:32:06 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2154 2011-04-07 20:32:20 alkor has joined
2155 2011-04-07 20:32:20 <gasteve> sipa: exactly
2156 2011-04-07 20:32:46 alkor has left ()
2157 2011-04-07 20:32:47 <sipa> and it doesn't need any cryptography to do so
2158 2011-04-07 20:33:18 <gasteve> yeah, but with better hardware, even jailbreaking would be practically impossible
2159 2011-04-07 20:34:41 <sipa> i also don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to try to prevent the consumer from doing what he wants
2160 2011-04-07 20:34:50 <sipa> but i won't buy it
2161 2011-04-07 20:35:25 <gasteve> the issue is that this particular bit of control is actually solving a very real problem for people (dealing with viruses, malware and the like)...that's making it hugely popular ...you just need more providers of such validation/certification services to compete
2162 2011-04-07 20:36:11 <gasteve> (and making it easy and simple to purchase, install and use the software apps)
2163 2011-04-07 20:36:38 <gasteve> but, amazon and others are getting into it and that will hopefully bring the much needed competition
2164 2011-04-07 20:36:46 <sipa> sure, that's their strategy, make it so nice and perfect, that people don't bother about possible consequences
2165 2011-04-07 20:37:46 <gasteve> I don't think there is any sinister plot ...they're not trying to lure people into some trap ...but, in their quest for making the best product, they are creating a dangerous concentration of power
2166 2011-04-07 20:38:30 <sipa> exactly
2167 2011-04-07 20:38:50 <luke-jr> gasteve: having that service inside the CPU is not necessary for legit use
2168 2011-04-07 20:39:03 <gasteve> agree
2169 2011-04-07 20:39:04 <luke-jr> it could just as well be a SATA or PCI device
2170 2011-04-07 20:41:22 <topi`> Back in 2003, I tried to scramble all the bits of info together about Microsoft's Palladium and the TCPA alliance ... and came to a conclusion that they actually wanted to build a platform where you would only be able to boot a *signed* operating system
2171 2011-04-07 20:41:26 <topi`> so no Linux there
2172 2011-04-07 20:41:56 <gasteve> well, what I was referring to was a secure OS...you would need to be able to do things like verify the software stack your app is running on has not been compromised in some way ...in those circumstances, support in the CPU and perhaps other components would be necessary
2173 2011-04-07 20:42:51 <gasteve> topi`: I think you are correct about Microsoft's ultimate intentions regarding palladium and TCPA
2174 2011-04-07 20:42:58 <[Tycho]> Heh, almost all diamonds and 0.1 to 1 kg gold bullions are sold out in Belarus :)
2175 2011-04-07 20:44:23 <topi`> gasteve: for unknown reasons, Palladium did not go very far
2176 2011-04-07 20:44:47 <topi`> they started implementing significant portions of it in Vista, though. like the security of audio/video paths
2177 2011-04-07 20:45:12 antivigilante has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2178 2011-04-07 20:45:59 <idnar> hah, it's so quaint to think that people were worried about that in 2003
2179 2011-04-07 20:46:20 <luke-jr> idnar: I think it's stupid that people aren't pissed off about it still
2180 2011-04-07 20:46:31 <topi`> Ross Anderson made a thorough analysis of Palladium back in 2003. I think I still have it linked somewhere
2181 2011-04-07 20:46:37 <idnar> luke-jr: well, at this point, nobody cares because traditional desktop OSs are looking deader by the minute
2182 2011-04-07 20:46:43 <topi`> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
2183 2011-04-07 20:47:24 <idnar> and mobile device manufacturers have done ridiculous stuff from the start, which apparently "nobody" cares about (or at least not enough people to matter)
2184 2011-04-07 20:48:36 <topi`> I think this text is still a good read, even today, because those are the threats we (as free individuals) are facing from the corporate sector
2185 2011-04-07 20:48:36 <idnar> I just find it amusing that while Microsoft has been scrambling around trying to keep their lock on the desktop market, the whole industry shifted out from under them and walked off into the distance... :P
2186 2011-04-07 20:50:53 <gasteve> yes, I find that amusing too ;)
2187 2011-04-07 20:52:50 Asphodelia has joined
2188 2011-04-07 20:55:34 <topi`> well, they still have enormous R&D and marketing resources at their disposal, so don't underestimate the dying horse yet
2189 2011-04-07 20:56:01 <topi`> I mean, microsoft has been the threat #1 in my universe for 20 years of my life
2190 2011-04-07 20:56:15 <topi`> that's a long time of fright and hatred :)
2191 2011-04-07 20:57:20 <topi`> funny how everybody was so poised at just "standardising on windows" not so many years back
2192 2011-04-07 20:57:51 <topi`> and now there's a lot of second thoughts. even my old employer Nokia prepared IT support for both Linux and OSX
2193 2011-04-07 20:57:58 <luke-jr> 'everyone' is still poised on just 'standardizing on Windows' or 'standardizing on Apple' still
2194 2011-04-07 20:58:15 <topi`> I wouldn't bet for Apple on the desktop, though
2195 2011-04-07 20:58:18 <luke-jr> topi`: Nokia sold out
2196 2011-04-07 20:58:55 <monkeykoder> Linux for the win of course
2197 2011-04-07 20:59:38 <luke-jr> topi`: Nokia killed Symbian, Maemo/MeeGo, and probably soon Qt, by agreeing to be exclusively Windows Mobile on phones
2198 2011-04-07 20:59:40 <Kiba> ugh
2199 2011-04-07 20:59:53 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2200 2011-04-07 20:59:54 <jaromil> topi`: sat i'm also busy, sun maybe better. i'm thinking of an informal meeting, 2h or 3 max, just geeks.
2201 2011-04-07 21:00:07 <topi`> luke, yep, a lot of my former colleagues marched out of their workplaces
2202 2011-04-07 21:00:25 <topi`> jaromil: cool :) any bitcoins for takes? :)
2203 2011-04-07 21:00:38 <luke-jr> mobile Linux is now basically dead â¹
2204 2011-04-07 21:00:54 <topi`> luke, it still lives on my N900!
2205 2011-04-07 21:00:57 <luke-jr> maybe those former colleagues of yours should startup a new company to revive it
2206 2011-04-07 21:01:01 <luke-jr> topi`: N900 is obsolete already
2207 2011-04-07 21:01:09 <luke-jr> and it STILL doesn't run Linux yet
2208 2011-04-07 21:01:31 <topi`> luke, that's a very subjective point of view
2209 2011-04-07 21:01:46 <jaromil> topi`: i have 10 lousy bitcoins. i'm a late and lazy stakeholder. never been a biz guy
2210 2011-04-07 21:01:55 <topi`> :D
2211 2011-04-07 21:02:11 <luke-jr> topi`: it's been over a year since Nexus One was released with 4 times the RAM of N900
2212 2011-04-07 21:02:16 <luke-jr> topi`: and that's a *phone*
2213 2011-04-07 21:02:17 <jaromil> i'm just in for the sex drugs and rock n roll
2214 2011-04-07 21:02:23 <topi`> jaromil: I just bought some, because mining gave frustratingly little (0.02 btc so far)
2215 2011-04-07 21:02:32 <jaromil> eheheh, knew it
2216 2011-04-07 21:02:50 <jaromil> write a good article on bitcoin and ask for donations, gets u better off
2217 2011-04-07 21:02:56 <topi`> lol
2218 2011-04-07 21:03:04 <gjs278> I hate when people ask for donations on stuff
2219 2011-04-07 21:03:08 antivigilante has joined
2220 2011-04-07 21:03:11 <jaromil> rich people in bitcoin world are much better than the usual rich people
2221 2011-04-07 21:03:12 <topi`> I bought only so many that I can actually afford to *lose* out on this gamble :)
2222 2011-04-07 21:03:15 <gjs278> especially the bump donate
2223 2011-04-07 21:03:58 <topi`> jaromil: maybe, except for that guy who got the botnet to chew 250 000 BTC for him.
2224 2011-04-07 21:04:07 <jaromil> ahahahah u think he is a scrooge?
2225 2011-04-07 21:04:22 <topi`> well, he could be about anything
2226 2011-04-07 21:04:31 <topi`> i'm not a psychologist :) it's hard to tell what motivates people
2227 2011-04-07 21:04:36 <jaromil> nice subj for conspiracy theory
2228 2011-04-07 21:05:28 <topi`> but if we're worried about the few early adopters of bitcoin, who will get rich (hopefully) in the process, let's not forget the wealth distribution of the "real world"
2229 2011-04-07 21:05:31 <jaromil> still be it a guy or a gal, one person or an organization: it's a smart entity
2230 2011-04-07 21:05:31 <topi`> is that fair at all?
2231 2011-04-07 21:05:45 <topi`> and, more importantly, did they "earn" their wealth?
2232 2011-04-07 21:05:57 <jaromil> substitute smart with anything you fear/think is smart and you get a theory :)
2233 2011-04-07 21:06:13 <jaromil> all money is time based topy
2234 2011-04-07 21:06:52 <luke-jr> topi`: wealth is not the end-all
2235 2011-04-07 21:06:52 <topi`> maybe the botnet has gained self-consciousness? :)
2236 2011-04-07 21:06:52 <nathan7> Skynet?
2237 2011-04-07 21:06:52 <gjs278> well there's no denying that the people who were early adopters made out huge on bitcoin
2238 2011-04-07 21:06:52 <gjs278> but that's the risk they took
2239 2011-04-07 21:06:52 <topi`> skynet is mining BTC!!
2240 2011-04-07 21:06:55 <gjs278> the coins could easily be worth nothing now
2241 2011-04-07 21:07:04 <luke-jr> gjs278: there's no risk there
2242 2011-04-07 21:07:13 <gjs278> sure there is
2243 2011-04-07 21:07:16 <luke-jr> they were worthless when they got them
2244 2011-04-07 21:07:18 <gjs278> buying hardware to mine the coins
2245 2011-04-07 21:07:25 <luke-jr> they didn't need to buy hardware
2246 2011-04-07 21:07:31 <luke-jr> their old CPUs were plenty
2247 2011-04-07 21:07:39 <gjs278> for cpu generation you could still get more with a higher end cpu
2248 2011-04-07 21:07:52 <luke-jr> I doubt anyone did it.
2249 2011-04-07 21:07:59 <topi`> but it was still pristine frontier that they took upon
2250 2011-04-07 21:08:00 <gjs278> at least 1 guy did
2251 2011-04-07 21:08:10 <topi`> and thats why the early adopters got so many btc
2252 2011-04-07 21:08:11 <gjs278> and that guy
2253 2011-04-07 21:08:12 <gjs278> is a hero
2254 2011-04-07 21:08:25 <luke-jr> and CPUs are worthwhile even without bitcoin
2255 2011-04-07 21:08:31 <gjs278> sure
2256 2011-04-07 21:08:39 <gjs278> but are 4 5970's worthwhile even without bitcoin
2257 2011-04-07 21:08:40 <gjs278> no
2258 2011-04-07 21:08:56 <gjs278> right now there's a greater risk I guess
2259 2011-04-07 21:09:00 <luke-jr> the GPU era is not really early adopters
2260 2011-04-07 21:09:03 <topi`> my brother started mining bitcoins a few months ago and he made 50 btc in 2 weeks
2261 2011-04-07 21:09:08 <topi`> on the *cpu*
2262 2011-04-07 21:09:13 <luke-jr> topi`: yep
2263 2011-04-07 21:09:40 <jaromil> mmm. gotta have a look at that gpu code then
2264 2011-04-07 21:09:43 <topi`> now, I'm using a same kind of cpu and getting meager 0.1 btc from the pool in a week
2265 2011-04-07 21:09:45 <luke-jr> maybe we should all sell off and start our own block chain ;)
2266 2011-04-07 21:09:48 <gjs278> too bad they were only worth a nickel each, I hope he held onto them
2267 2011-04-07 21:10:11 <jaromil> topi`: there was a huge boost in btc and right now the curve has flexed
2268 2011-04-07 21:10:19 <jaromil> way too much...
2269 2011-04-07 21:10:22 <jaromil> afaik
2270 2011-04-07 21:10:31 <jaromil> days, hours... count.
2271 2011-04-07 21:10:54 <topi`> luke-jr: that would be quite a bet
2272 2011-04-07 21:11:04 <luke-jr> topi`: would it?>
2273 2011-04-07 21:11:18 * jaromil 1 year ago was looking at btc code and dismissed it with a "rubbish" expression smoking a spliff
2274 2011-04-07 21:11:18 <luke-jr> actually, it would be pointless :x
2275 2011-04-07 21:11:32 <luke-jr> all it means is that the early adopters lose their BTC; it wouldn't mean anything for the future
2276 2011-04-07 21:11:44 <luke-jr> jaromil: the wx client code really is rubbish :P
2277 2011-04-07 21:11:47 <jaromil> you see now why i deserve to be poor
2278 2011-04-07 21:12:02 <krytzz> same for me
2279 2011-04-07 21:12:03 <luke-jr> I never heard about bitcoin until this year at all â¹
2280 2011-04-07 21:12:19 <krytzz> saw it about one year ago and thought: this will never take off
2281 2011-04-07 21:12:22 <jaromil> luke-jr: was on /. a yr ago
2282 2011-04-07 21:12:22 <krytzz> and then it did lol
2283 2011-04-07 21:12:25 <monkeykoder> I just found out about it like 2 days ago
2284 2011-04-07 21:12:30 <luke-jr> jaromil: I stopped reading /. about 3 years ago
2285 2011-04-07 21:12:34 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
2286 2011-04-07 21:12:35 <jaromil> lol
2287 2011-04-07 21:12:49 <topi`> my little bro didn't tell me about it, so I only found out about bitcoin a week ago.
2288 2011-04-07 21:12:52 <krytzz> luke-jr: TREASON!! :p
2289 2011-04-07 21:12:55 <luke-jr> about when they broke it working in my standards-compliant browser
2290 2011-04-07 21:13:08 <gasteve> I heard about it shortly after it was announced...and thought I needed to take a look at it ...but I procrastinated
2291 2011-04-07 21:13:24 <jaromil> /. is not always cutting edge, and also very western pov, but still has this good average in quality i think that makes it worth keeping an eye
2292 2011-04-07 21:13:32 <monkeykoder> I read about the idea in a book a while ago (I think the implemented version)
2293 2011-04-07 21:14:07 <jaromil> topi`: ur litl bro was buying porn and drugs with it, then eh
2294 2011-04-07 21:14:15 <gasteve> (bitcoin is a kind of nexus for a lot of different things I'm interested in)
2295 2011-04-07 21:14:37 <monkeykoder> Cryptography is interesting
2296 2011-04-07 21:14:43 <jaromil> lol
2297 2011-04-07 21:14:59 <jaromil> guys, next year is 100 years from the birth of alan turing
2298 2011-04-07 21:15:17 zenfoo has joined
2299 2011-04-07 21:15:20 <monkeykoder> They need some better porn sites to accept bitcoins
2300 2011-04-07 21:15:56 <monkeykoder> because as we all know "The internet is for porn"
2301 2011-04-07 21:16:07 <sipa> the internet is really really great
2302 2011-04-07 21:16:14 * jaromil early sub'er of playboy.com
2303 2011-04-07 21:16:22 <luke-jr> porn should be illegal
2304 2011-04-07 21:16:26 <jaromil> and rotten.com FWIW
2305 2011-04-07 21:16:50 <sipa> monkeykoder: you know where the song comes from?
2306 2011-04-07 21:16:55 <jaromil> they where the center of the internet in 92/93
2307 2011-04-07 21:17:13 <jaromil> anything else was just fail
2308 2011-04-07 21:17:31 <jaromil> that's history
2309 2011-04-07 21:17:40 <gasteve> yes, Al Gore wanted a better way to distribute porn...that's why he invented it
2310 2011-04-07 21:17:58 <monkeykoder> Flight of the concords
2311 2011-04-07 21:18:07 <topi`> damn... THAT would be the KEY to really drive bitcoin into everyday use... porn sites!
2312 2011-04-07 21:18:27 <sipa> bitporn.com already exists...
2313 2011-04-07 21:18:33 <jaromil> i'm not surprised at all if sex and death is in bitcoin.. they have lots to do with money anyway
2314 2011-04-07 21:18:34 <topi`> I mean, the single most important point of hesitation in entering a porn site is surely entering your credit card credentials there
2315 2011-04-07 21:18:35 <luke-jr> so anyone know where the 7.4 was?
2316 2011-04-07 21:18:36 <monkeykoder> hell porn is the only reason I used the internet
2317 2011-04-07 21:18:43 <jaromil> if you are a prohibitionist you might have delusional feelings
2318 2011-04-07 21:18:44 <topi`> and bitcoin just solves that problem elegantly
2319 2011-04-07 21:18:53 <topi`> bitcoin could be HUGE
2320 2011-04-07 21:18:54 <krytzz> topi`: right
2321 2011-04-07 21:18:59 <jaromil> if you are a bit of a philosopher then you can't be surprised
2322 2011-04-07 21:19:03 <krytzz> great idea
2323 2011-04-07 21:19:22 <luke-jr> better for bitcoin to die, than porn to become more viable.
2324 2011-04-07 21:19:28 <gasteve> aside from porn, I think people working in foreign countries and wanting to send money back home to their families might be a good use for bitcoins
2325 2011-04-07 21:19:51 <Kiba> hmm
2326 2011-04-07 21:20:02 <gasteve> if they could find people locally that would exchange for cash
2327 2011-04-07 21:20:03 <Kiba> no new pledges today....
2328 2011-04-07 21:20:14 <monkeykoder> we need to start hurting people that get in the way of non-harmful entertainment
2329 2011-04-07 21:20:26 <jaromil> porn has been viable since the first lousy VHS tape was produced industrially
2330 2011-04-07 21:20:35 <jaromil> don't blame new tech for it
2331 2011-04-07 21:20:40 <bitcoiner> sex sells
2332 2011-04-07 21:20:51 <gasteve> the problem with porn is that it's becoming free
2333 2011-04-07 21:20:57 <jaromil> bitcoin is much more than that
2334 2011-04-07 21:20:58 <Kiba> games are apperantly hard to sell
2335 2011-04-07 21:21:04 <gasteve> (problem with porn as a biz for bitcoin)
2336 2011-04-07 21:21:16 <Kiba> gasteve: live cam is the new business model
2337 2011-04-07 21:21:22 <gasteve> Kiba: yep
2338 2011-04-07 21:21:26 <luke-jr> porn should carry a jail sentence at least
2339 2011-04-07 21:21:27 <jaromil> oh sorry i was wrong. porn has been viable since gutenberg
2340 2011-04-07 21:21:31 <krytzz> ok: who in the channel is sexy enough? :p
2341 2011-04-07 21:21:51 <jaromil> and prolly it's just that i don't know how people used to jerk off before that
2342 2011-04-07 21:21:58 <jaromil> but hell, it was good to keep priests busy :D
2343 2011-04-07 21:22:31 <monkeykoder> I'm sure as hell not sexy enough nor do I have the money to pay performers
2344 2011-04-07 21:22:39 <jaromil> the history of porn is the history of digital immanence
2345 2011-04-07 21:22:46 <jaromil> now xcuse me i'll go smoke my spliff
2346 2011-04-07 21:23:15 <monkeykoder> the history of porn starts before the bible says the earth was created
2347 2011-04-07 21:23:58 phantomcircuit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2348 2011-04-07 21:24:04 <jaromil> so thinking to stop/slow porn by stopping/slowing something like bitcoin is just a witch hunt, IMHO
2349 2011-04-07 21:24:04 <luke-jr> monkeykoder: that doesn't even make sense
2350 2011-04-07 21:24:06 phantomcircuit has joined
2351 2011-04-07 21:24:18 <jaromil> but i'm open to good arguments that take history into account
2352 2011-04-07 21:24:28 <Kiba> don't forget that luke-jr is diseased
2353 2011-04-07 21:24:29 <monkeykoder> of course it does
2354 2011-04-07 21:24:47 <luke-jr> monkeykoder: explain how porn could exist before the Earth is Created
2355 2011-04-07 21:24:52 <topi`> gasteve: it's true that ppl who send money back to their families in Africa mostly end up paying exorbitant fees for the money transfers
2356 2011-04-07 21:24:56 * jaromil rotfl at capitals
2357 2011-04-07 21:25:05 xelister has joined
2358 2011-04-07 21:25:07 <monkeykoder> I said before "The Bible" said the earth was created
2359 2011-04-07 21:25:13 <xelister> is anyone running testnet?
2360 2011-04-07 21:25:15 <topi`> gasteve: I think it would be a moral duty for the Bitcoin community to figure out ways to end that
2361 2011-04-07 21:25:23 <xelister> got 0 connections on testnet
2362 2011-04-07 21:25:24 <luke-jr> monkeykoder: which is when it was Created
2363 2011-04-07 21:25:37 <Kiba> luke-jr is a creationist
2364 2011-04-07 21:25:48 <Kiba> topi`: end what? porn?
2365 2011-04-07 21:26:16 <jaromil> topi`: end free market you mean?
2366 2011-04-07 21:26:30 <topi`> jaromil: as far as "free market" equals predatory pricing
2367 2011-04-07 21:26:36 <topi`> and the individuals and families suffer
2368 2011-04-07 21:26:39 <Kiba> there are far worse things than people jerking off
2369 2011-04-07 21:26:51 <Kiba> usury is not evil and you know it
2370 2011-04-07 21:26:51 <jaromil> but then the media has nothing to do about it
2371 2011-04-07 21:26:58 <phantomcircuit> topi`, moving money from america to africa is expensive
2372 2011-04-07 21:27:00 <monkeykoder> The bible doesn't even forbid it
2373 2011-04-07 21:27:03 <jaromil> i agree slavery is something to fight
2374 2011-04-07 21:27:08 <topi`> Kiba: gasteve was talking about 3rd world ppl sending money back to their families
2375 2011-04-07 21:27:11 <luke-jr> monkeykoder: the Bible isn't a rule book
2376 2011-04-07 21:27:16 <phantomcircuit> topi`, mostly because the volume is going to be very low and the risk of having large amounts of cash in africa is huge
2377 2011-04-07 21:27:20 <topi`> phantomcircuit: it is, but it does not *need* to be
2378 2011-04-07 21:27:24 <monkeykoder> AND I don't care what it says
2379 2011-04-07 21:27:36 <phantomcircuit> topi`, sure just have them pay with bitcoins, oh wait they dont have computers
2380 2011-04-07 21:27:37 <phantomcircuit> :|
2381 2011-04-07 21:27:47 <xelister> anyone can run testnet?
2382 2011-04-07 21:27:58 <luke-jr> xelister: wihtout a computer?
2383 2011-04-07 21:27:58 <jaromil> mmm, sometimes someone said, i think was EvanR ... a #bitcoin-politics channel exists...
2384 2011-04-07 21:28:05 <xelister> luke-jr: huh?
2385 2011-04-07 21:28:10 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: actually, J2ME Bitcoin UI could maybe work
2386 2011-04-07 21:28:14 <xelister> can someone please go on testnet - I have 0 connections
2387 2011-04-07 21:28:33 <luke-jr> lol
2388 2011-04-07 21:28:33 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, sure but you'd need a remote system running a noce, you're not going to have a full node on a phone
2389 2011-04-07 21:28:34 <jaromil> now imagine you are a dev since a year or more and all these discussions are happening in the -dev chan
2390 2011-04-07 21:28:45 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: so?
2391 2011-04-07 21:28:50 <topi`> phantomcircuit: in contrary to your ideas about Africa, quite many villages in Rural africa have at least one house which has a computer
2392 2011-04-07 21:28:50 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: mybitcoin equivalent
2393 2011-04-07 21:28:52 <jaromil> jeez, their spliffs must taste better than mine right now
2394 2011-04-07 21:28:52 <xelister> can. someone. run. fucking. testnet. node
2395 2011-04-07 21:29:10 <topi`> the bigger problem is not computers, nor GSM/EDGE networks, but the availability of reliable power
2396 2011-04-07 21:29:29 <phantomcircuit> topi`, yeah they have thousands of dollars (or equivalent local scale) on hand to trade people?
2397 2011-04-07 21:29:52 <jaromil> topi`: true! but hell when the power is on, those kids are the best in the world at playin tekken!
2398 2011-04-07 21:29:57 <luke-jr> xelister: done
2399 2011-04-07 21:31:55 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2400 2011-04-07 21:32:12 jrabbit has joined
2401 2011-04-07 21:33:59 <luke-jr> imo, it would be nice if different block chains could share the same p2p network
2402 2011-04-07 21:34:23 <xelister> luke-jr: you mean for downloading initial blocks?
2403 2011-04-07 21:34:25 <topi`> there was a avaaz campaign against companies like western union that capitalize on the fees for sending money to 3rd world: http://www.avaaz.org/en/make_giving_powerful/?ca
2404 2011-04-07 21:34:36 <luke-jr> xelister: no, just getting peers at least
2405 2011-04-07 21:34:44 <luke-jr> maybe passing transactions
2406 2011-04-07 21:35:05 <jaromil> topi`: there are also requests from south american companeros to taxate financial transactions...
2407 2011-04-07 21:35:14 <xelister> luke-jr: for what reason? performance? anonimty?
2408 2011-04-07 21:35:25 <luke-jr> xelister: efficiency?
2409 2011-04-07 21:35:32 <luke-jr> so I hear France just made Bitcoin illegal
2410 2011-04-07 21:35:34 <jaromil> all manifestations of the power of bitcoin
2411 2011-04-07 21:35:38 <xelister> luke-jr: illegal?
2412 2011-04-07 21:35:49 <monkeykoder> of course it's not a legal currency
2413 2011-04-07 21:35:51 <luke-jr> apparently they banned one-way hash functions
2414 2011-04-07 21:35:58 <xelister> luke-jr: hm?
2415 2011-04-07 21:36:09 <xelister> are you plain trolling or what?
2416 2011-04-07 21:36:10 <xelister> =)
2417 2011-04-07 21:36:13 <luke-jr> no, that's what I heard
2418 2011-04-07 21:36:18 <luke-jr> can anyone confirm?
2419 2011-04-07 21:36:19 <xelister> where?
2420 2011-04-07 21:36:25 <luke-jr> another channel
2421 2011-04-07 21:36:39 Zenith77 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2422 2011-04-07 21:36:42 <topi`> luke, how can you ban that??
2423 2011-04-07 21:36:44 <luke-jr> http://slashdot.org/story/11/04/07/0212222/France-Outlaws-Hashed-Passwords
2424 2011-04-07 21:37:10 <xelister> lol?
2425 2011-04-07 21:38:02 <xelister> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
2426 2011-04-07 21:38:12 <xelister> fuck franch gov, they are more crazy then usa :-O :D
2427 2011-04-07 21:38:13 <monkeykoder> that is straight up Redoncoculous
2428 2011-04-07 21:38:31 <xelister> FR delegalizes SHA -> LOL -> "Storing passwords as hashes instead of plain text is now illegal in France, according to a draconian new data retention law. According to the BBC, '[t]he law obliges a range of e-commerce sites, video and music services and webmail providers to keep a host of data on customers. This includes users' full names, postal addresses, telephone numbers and passwords. The data must be handed over to the authorities if
2429 2011-04-07 21:38:32 <xelister> demanded.
2430 2011-04-07 21:38:54 <Kiba> good luck with that
2431 2011-04-07 21:39:03 <xelister> wow they are competing with usafags
2432 2011-04-07 21:39:08 <xelister> in level of retardness
2433 2011-04-07 21:40:13 <monkeykoder> governments have nothing to do with anything
2434 2011-04-07 21:40:20 <xelister> monkeykoder: ?
2435 2011-04-07 21:41:01 <monkeykoder> the idea of government pretending to be something that it is not makes me want to laugh
2436 2011-04-07 21:41:02 <Kiba> next, they'll outlaw filesharing
2437 2011-04-07 21:41:13 <xelister> and i2p
2438 2011-04-07 21:41:14 <xelister> fags.
2439 2011-04-07 21:41:19 <sipa> nothing makes hashing password illegal - as long as you keep a cleartext (or at least decryptable) version around :)
2440 2011-04-07 21:41:24 <luke-jr> Kiba: "outlaw" does not mean "criminal"
2441 2011-04-07 21:41:29 <xelister> well, we will always have Freenet. Unbannable by design. and sneakernets etc
2442 2011-04-07 21:41:36 <xelister> brb
2443 2011-04-07 21:41:36 xelister has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2444 2011-04-07 21:42:05 <Kiba> luke-jr: pfft. Who said it's criminal?
2445 2011-04-07 21:42:09 <luke-jr> sipa: true, I guess it just means Bitcoin can't prune old merkle trees
2446 2011-04-07 21:42:24 <luke-jr> Kiba: you really meant outlaw?
2447 2011-04-07 21:42:35 <Kiba> I meant, making it illegal
2448 2011-04-07 21:42:39 <luke-jr> so no
2449 2011-04-07 21:42:48 xelister has joined
2450 2011-04-07 21:42:49 <luke-jr> outlaw means any vigilante is allowed to randomly kill you
2451 2011-04-07 21:43:11 * Kiba rolleyes
2452 2011-04-07 21:43:52 <sipa> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/outlaw
2453 2011-04-07 21:44:04 <sipa> "To delcare illegal" or "To place a ban under"
2454 2011-04-07 21:44:47 <luke-jr> this is why you don't rely on wikis for knowledge
2455 2011-04-07 21:44:52 <luke-jr> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/outlaw
2456 2011-04-07 21:45:19 <luke-jr> "a : to deprive of the benefit and protection of law : declare to be an outlaw"
2457 2011-04-07 21:45:33 <sipa> "b : to make illegal"
2458 2011-04-07 21:45:41 <sipa> i'm quite sure that's what Kiba means
2459 2011-04-07 21:47:05 somecoiner has joined
2460 2011-04-07 21:49:19 somecoiner has quit (Client Quit)
2461 2011-04-07 21:50:19 ApertureScience has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2462 2011-04-07 21:57:33 <ForceDestroyer> I'm just wondering: is there a coordinated upgrade plan in case someone finds a way to develop a scalable quantum computer?
2463 2011-04-07 21:57:40 <Kiba> sipa: did ya look at my crowdfunded game project yet?
2464 2011-04-07 21:57:45 <sipa> Kiba: no
2465 2011-04-07 21:58:02 <Kiba> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5465.0
2466 2011-04-07 21:58:13 <sipa> ForceDestroyer: if someone *suddenly* develops sizable quantum computing, bitcoin will be the least of my worries
2467 2011-04-07 21:58:37 <ForceDestroyer> That's unreasonable, have you ever seen a quantum computation system?
2468 2011-04-07 21:58:54 <sipa> ?
2469 2011-04-07 21:59:07 <Kiba> they will break the banks' security system
2470 2011-04-07 21:59:14 <Kiba> before they'll break bitcoin
2471 2011-04-07 21:59:15 <ForceDestroyer> The last one I saw was the most awesome laser redirection ... errr... 3D grid I've ever seen, and it couldn't even compute
2472 2011-04-07 21:59:28 <ForceDestroyer> Banks would switch their security systems
2473 2011-04-07 21:59:40 <Kiba> and so will bitcoin....
2474 2011-04-07 21:59:42 <ForceDestroyer> I mean... from beginning to finishing the construction, years should pass
2475 2011-04-07 22:00:00 <ForceDestroyer> So, uhm, there is no problem with that?
2476 2011-04-07 22:01:08 <Kiba> umm...quantum computing would put all cryptography in trouble
2477 2011-04-07 22:01:10 <gjs278> phantomcircuit I made a pull request to your repo
2478 2011-04-07 22:01:10 <phantomcircuit> ForceDestroyer, if someone builds a workable quantum computer that can implement shor's algorithm bitcoin would be like the last thing is tried
2479 2011-04-07 22:01:47 <ForceDestroyer> Still, it would be tried eventually
2480 2011-04-07 22:02:13 <ForceDestroyer> Is it possible to just freeze the blockchain and somehow arrange to swap the mechanism, while people keep their BTC?
2481 2011-04-07 22:02:28 <phantomcircuit> ForceDestroyer, not really
2482 2011-04-07 22:02:31 <phantomcircuit> actually
2483 2011-04-07 22:02:35 <phantomcircuit> no it would be impossible
2484 2011-04-07 22:02:38 <ForceDestroyer> Otherwise, nobody will pay for them --> value drops to zero the moment the QIP device is announced
2485 2011-04-07 22:02:44 <gjs278> not really
2486 2011-04-07 22:03:04 <JFK911> yeah so dont announce it
2487 2011-04-07 22:03:06 <gjs278> I doubt anyone with a qip cares about btcoins
2488 2011-04-07 22:03:09 <gjs278> or would announce it
2489 2011-04-07 22:03:19 <xelister> there are solutions for QC passwords cracking
2490 2011-04-07 22:03:22 <JFK911> id totally generate the rest of the 21 million btc
2491 2011-04-07 22:03:27 <xelister> we just need to move to newer algorithms
2492 2011-04-07 22:03:27 <gjs278> yeah exactly
2493 2011-04-07 22:03:37 <xelister> btw, sha256 is fine against QC so no problem here
2494 2011-04-07 22:03:50 <JFK911> wouldnt it be funny
2495 2011-04-07 22:03:51 <gjs278> I would just ruin it for everyone and make the difficulty 99999999999
2496 2011-04-07 22:03:54 <phantomcircuit> JFK911, that's not the problem
2497 2011-04-07 22:03:55 <JFK911> all the bitcoin clients would crash
2498 2011-04-07 22:03:57 <ForceDestroyer> Yea, all I'm wondering about is whether BitCoin can swap the algorithm of the whole network... saa
2499 2011-04-07 22:04:00 <JFK911> because the difficulty would overflow
2500 2011-04-07 22:04:08 <xelister> ForceDestroyer: yes it can
2501 2011-04-07 22:04:17 <phantomcircuit> ForceDestroyer, if there is a warning period then yes, if there is not then.. kind of
2502 2011-04-07 22:04:35 <ForceDestroyer> gjs278: does quantum computing have exp speedup on block solving? I didn't think so (didn't look up the algorithm either, so I don't really know)
2503 2011-04-07 22:04:36 <sipa> it's possible to introduce a new version of tx'es in the code, and make those default after block number N
2504 2011-04-07 22:04:39 <JFK911> what if you are in prison during the conversion
2505 2011-04-07 22:04:52 <sipa> ForceDestroyer: ECDSA is vulnerable to quantum computing
2506 2011-04-07 22:05:08 <ForceDestroyer> Yea, the money could be stolen
2507 2011-04-07 22:06:17 <ForceDestroyer> There is little doubt there will be a warning period if that ever happens. Quantum computers are hellishly hard to construct
2508 2011-04-07 22:06:41 <luke-jr> don't quantum computers already exist though?
2509 2011-04-07 22:06:44 <luke-jr> just takes one, rihgt?
2510 2011-04-07 22:06:46 <ForceDestroyer> 4 bit
2511 2011-04-07 22:06:53 <ForceDestroyer> That's not dangerous
2512 2011-04-07 22:06:55 <sipa> yes, they can factorize the number 15
2513 2011-04-07 22:07:15 <ForceDestroyer> That didn't change for years~
2514 2011-04-07 22:07:23 <Kiba> will they make quantum computers cheap enough for average everyday use?
2515 2011-04-07 22:07:28 <ForceDestroyer> I just read somebody claims they might reach 10 qubit this year -- that is something new
2516 2011-04-07 22:08:03 <Kiba> it's nice to have a technoloy like quantum computers..the question is...will I get a quantum smartphone?
2517 2011-04-07 22:08:06 <ForceDestroyer> Kiba: I doubt it, but who cares -- it only takes one of them and a little time to steal unimaginable amounts of BTC if there's no protection plan
2518 2011-04-07 22:08:38 <luke-jr> sipa: 15 isn't even prime
2519 2011-04-07 22:08:46 <topi`> I am much more afraid of government/corporate intervention
2520 2011-04-07 22:08:47 <ForceDestroyer> Kiba: what do you want that for? Like searching unordered databases? Or cracking people who forgot to dump RSA :p
2521 2011-04-07 22:09:03 <ForceDestroyer> luke-jr: that's the point of factoring, lol
2522 2011-04-07 22:09:05 <Kiba> I thought it would be the fastest computer ever made?
2523 2011-04-07 22:09:19 <Kiba> and I want the best of the best
2524 2011-04-07 22:09:19 <ForceDestroyer> No, speed has nothing to do with it
2525 2011-04-07 22:09:29 <Kiba> no?
2526 2011-04-07 22:09:43 <ForceDestroyer> You *can* get exponential speedup in very rare cases
2527 2011-04-07 22:09:53 <Kiba> so it will be faster then?
2528 2011-04-07 22:10:20 <sipa> luke-jr: therefore you can factorize it
2529 2011-04-07 22:10:35 <ForceDestroyer> Uhm... this will be difficult now if you don't know of quantum mechanics
2530 2011-04-07 22:10:46 <ForceDestroyer> You can ask... different questions, so to say
2531 2011-04-07 22:11:19 <stamit> read about "lattice-based cryptography"
2532 2011-04-07 22:11:22 <luke-jr> I have a general understanding of quantum mechanics, but I have no idea how it applies to computing
2533 2011-04-07 22:11:41 <ForceDestroyer> Quantum computers can work on superpositions of states. This enables them to do crazy things. Let me give the easiest example
2534 2011-04-07 22:11:56 <stamit> i don't have much understanding of quantum mechanics
2535 2011-04-07 22:12:07 <phantomcircuit> sirius-m, you still need a server admin?
2536 2011-04-07 22:12:26 Strom- has joined
2537 2011-04-07 22:12:47 <luke-jr> ForceDestroyer: so a bit could be 1, 0, or "1 or 0"?
2538 2011-04-07 22:13:12 <ForceDestroyer> Yes, plus a relative complex phase... ^^;
2539 2011-04-07 22:13:13 osmosis has joined
2540 2011-04-07 22:13:21 <ForceDestroyer> Say, I construct a black box quantum circuit. There's an input qubit, and an output qubit.
2541 2011-04-07 22:13:45 <stamit> i think that bits can be in many combinations at once
2542 2011-04-07 22:13:56 <ForceDestroyer> The thing I build inside is completely classical, one of the four possible functions that map one bit to one bit
2543 2011-04-07 22:14:07 <ForceDestroyer> But I don't tell you what I built
2544 2011-04-07 22:14:38 <ForceDestroyer> Now I ask the question: Is my circuit constant (gives the same output independent of input)?
2545 2011-04-07 22:15:02 <ForceDestroyer> If you operate classically, you have to call the circuit twice to get this answer
2546 2011-04-07 22:15:47 <ForceDestroyer> A Quantum computer can apply special phase gates, the Hadamard gates, outside the black box and get the answer in one call
2547 2011-04-07 22:15:56 Strom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2548 2011-04-07 22:16:30 <ForceDestroyer> But, in exchange, it doesn't know the answer the circuit gave anymore. It still only learned one bit.
2549 2011-04-07 22:16:39 <topi`> does this somehow relate to the Hadamard transformation that they taught at Digital image processing class?
2550 2011-04-07 22:18:05 toffoo has quit ()
2551 2011-04-07 22:18:20 <ForceDestroyer> I don't know... it might be used in a mathematically similar context. The Hadamard transform is a fairly simple matrix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadamard_transform
2552 2011-04-07 22:19:11 <topi`> i studied electrical engineering, but have forgotten everything :)
2553 2011-04-07 22:19:13 <luke-jr> so basically, it's a trinary computer with a special meaning assigned to the third state
2554 2011-04-07 22:19:36 <ForceDestroyer> No. the states are enormously many.
2555 2011-04-07 22:19:47 <ForceDestroyer> Exponential in the amount of qubits
2556 2011-04-07 22:19:50 <sipa> 2^N states
2557 2011-04-07 22:20:08 justmoon has joined
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2559 2011-04-07 22:20:08 justmoon has joined
2560 2011-04-07 22:20:51 <ForceDestroyer> And, to make things worse, the states between 100% |0> (it is a zero but) and 100% |1> (it is a one bit) are a continuum, meaning even a single qubit has infinitely many states
2561 2011-04-07 22:21:31 <ForceDestroyer> But if we look at it, from our classical perspective, it always collapses to just one bit in our view -- so we can't see the enourmously large state as an observer
2562 2011-04-07 22:22:15 robotarmy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2563 2011-04-07 22:22:18 <ForceDestroyer> So, all in all, quantum computers aren't "faster". But they're different, and can do things normally deemed impossible.
2564 2011-04-07 22:23:06 <Kiba> so they're effectively faster
2565 2011-04-07 22:23:11 <ForceDestroyer> Sometimes
2566 2011-04-07 22:23:12 toffoo has joined
2567 2011-04-07 22:23:23 <topi`> not necessarily in running Quake3 with a faster frame rate
2568 2011-04-07 22:23:25 <Kiba> what about optical computers?
2569 2011-04-07 22:23:31 <ForceDestroyer> It really depends on the problem. If you want to divide two numbers, I don't see how quantum computation is of any help
2570 2011-04-07 22:24:16 <stamit> that QCs break conventional encryption is the main point
2571 2011-04-07 22:24:21 <Kiba> will it be slow for any problem?
2572 2011-04-07 22:24:29 <stamit> i'd start looking for a lattice-based cryptography library, if there is one
2573 2011-04-07 22:24:37 <Kiba> well, QCs might be useful for quantum simulation
2574 2011-04-07 22:24:50 <ForceDestroyer> Oooh yes :p That's an exponential speedup alright
2575 2011-04-07 22:24:51 <krytzz> Kiba: if you are interested read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP_problem and linked sites
2576 2011-04-07 22:25:27 <ForceDestroyer> But that's natural, of yourse you need a quantum computer to simulate a quantum system. Might be the main application in the end though.
2577 2011-04-07 22:25:42 <ForceDestroyer> *course
2578 2011-04-07 22:25:51 <Kiba> it seems to me that cryptography basically relies on problems that are infeasible to solve in a reasonable amount of time
2579 2011-04-07 22:26:28 <Kiba> until someone figure out how to solve them in a reasonable amount of time
2580 2011-04-07 22:27:21 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2581 2011-04-07 22:27:43 <Kiba> but microchip tech will be approaching the really small, the realm of quantum computers
2582 2011-04-07 22:28:14 <Kiba> err...the realm of quantum physics?
2583 2011-04-07 22:28:40 <ForceDestroyer> Yea, the latter is more correct. Unless they are quantum computers, quantum effects are only a hindrance, not of any help
2584 2011-04-07 22:29:56 theorbtwo has joined
2585 2011-04-07 22:30:20 <ForceDestroyer> Well... actually, I don't believe this is a likely breakdown scenario for BitCoin anymore
2586 2011-04-07 22:30:44 Sleeper has joined
2587 2011-04-07 22:31:31 <Sleeper> there are no langauge selection in the offical cilent?
2588 2011-04-07 22:31:33 <Sleeper> official
2589 2011-04-07 22:31:48 Sleeper is now known as Speeder
2590 2011-04-07 22:31:51 <luke-jr> original*
2591 2011-04-07 22:31:51 <ForceDestroyer> Threat announced --> lots of time in which everybody can still proove he's the owner of a certain BitCoin --> migrating to a new system while everybody checks the right people get the new stuff --> when the quantum computer is activated, everybody should be safe
2592 2011-04-07 22:32:18 <ForceDestroyer> Only if there was no safe algorithm available... I don't think that's the case. *shrugs*
2593 2011-04-07 22:32:34 <luke-jr> ForceDestroyer: cracking ECDSA only affects *future* spends
2594 2011-04-07 22:32:48 <ForceDestroyer> Yep
2595 2011-04-07 22:32:50 <luke-jr> so long as SHA-256 isn't cracked, we can just declare a block number as last-valid
2596 2011-04-07 22:32:52 <luke-jr> and import from there
2597 2011-04-07 22:33:04 <ForceDestroyer> The import won't work after the cracking is done
2598 2011-04-07 22:33:13 <ForceDestroyer> 'cause everybody will claim to be everybody
2599 2011-04-07 22:33:17 <luke-jr> oh, right
2600 2011-04-07 22:33:28 lfm has joined
2601 2011-04-07 22:33:42 <ForceDestroyer> But the migration should be complete long before someone can process quantum information on that scale
2602 2011-04-07 22:33:58 <luke-jr> actually, so long as SHA-256 isn't crashed, we don't even need a new system really
2603 2011-04-07 22:34:02 <luke-jr> just a new Script function
2604 2011-04-07 22:34:18 <luke-jr> and just start using that in transactions
2605 2011-04-07 22:34:24 <ForceDestroyer> Okay, now I know too little about the architecture -- lazy me. ^^
2606 2011-04-07 22:34:54 <ForceDestroyer> I don't know whether one is available, either... hm~
2607 2011-04-07 22:36:11 <ForceDestroyer> I mean, a new Script function
2608 2011-04-07 22:36:31 <sipa> slightly more than that
2609 2011-04-07 22:36:43 <sipa> also a new signature type
2610 2011-04-07 22:36:47 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2611 2011-04-07 22:37:27 <luke-jr> sipa: aren't signatures just script inputs?
2612 2011-04-07 22:37:43 <sipa> yes, ok
2613 2011-04-07 22:39:27 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2614 2011-04-07 22:39:40 <gjs278> I cracked sha256 but I'm just keeping it quiet for now
2615 2011-04-07 22:39:49 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the only problem would be people who had money stored would be forced to move it
2616 2011-04-07 22:40:07 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, funny id be sipping mojitos on an island
2617 2011-04-07 22:40:33 <stamit> i can't find any ready software; only research papers
2618 2011-04-07 22:40:42 grondilu has joined
2619 2011-04-07 22:40:57 <grondilu> Is bitcoin stuck on 117,225 or something ???
2620 2011-04-07 22:41:01 <sipa> ;;bc,block
2621 2011-04-07 22:41:02 <gribble> Error: "bc,block" is not a valid command.
2622 2011-04-07 22:41:04 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2623 2011-04-07 22:41:05 <gribble> 117225
2624 2011-04-07 22:41:47 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, ps your suggestion for a mining protocol is unnecessarily complex
2625 2011-04-07 22:41:56 * grondilu wants to help so he just "bitcoind setgenerate true"
2626 2011-04-07 22:42:22 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, a simple push mechanism would do it
2627 2011-04-07 22:42:32 <gjs278> bitcoin is stuck because I cracked sha256 and reversed all of the mtogtx transactions to myself... just give it a few minutes
2628 2011-04-07 22:42:53 <grondilu> haha
2629 2011-04-07 22:44:35 <grondilu> oh, here it is
2630 2011-04-07 22:44:40 <grondilu> ;;bc,blocks
2631 2011-04-07 22:44:41 <gribble> 117226
2632 2011-04-07 22:44:45 <grondilu> good
2633 2011-04-07 22:45:07 <grondilu> damn it the paiement I was expecting is not in it :(
2634 2011-04-07 22:45:10 <gjs278> I can't wait until bitcoin spam starts
2635 2011-04-07 22:45:17 * ForceDestroyer has read some more. Apparently there already exist public-private key algorithms that aren't cracked by Shor. I suppose that should settle the chances of a quantum-computation related failure chance of BitCoin as quite low.
2636 2011-04-07 22:45:48 <grondilu> oh, Shor discussion here. Again ?
2637 2011-04-07 22:46:29 <gjs278> Shor, we'll discuss it again
2638 2011-04-07 22:46:52 wolfspraul has joined
2639 2011-04-07 22:47:06 <stamit> i mentioned one.
2640 2011-04-07 22:47:07 <ForceDestroyer> I'm kinda satisfied now, I believe there is a fallback plan. Just wanted to think this through. Would be a hassle, but I guess BitCoin can adapt. â(ï¿£ã¼ï¿£)â
2641 2011-04-07 22:48:13 <phantomcircuit> ForceDestroyer, like i said before, all that would have to be done is all current btc be moved to a new transaction and a last known good block agreed upon
2642 2011-04-07 22:48:33 <phantomcircuit> although the last part would be strictly optional
2643 2011-04-07 22:48:51 <grondilu> mtgox should give a transaction hash when we withdraw bitcoins.
2644 2011-04-07 22:49:45 <ForceDestroyer> mtgox is generally a bit... insecure, eh? No extra check on anything. One wrong click, you're doomed lol
2645 2011-04-07 22:50:32 <grondilu> I don't mind much about that. But I'd like a proof of good will.
2646 2011-04-07 22:50:53 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
2647 2011-04-07 22:52:13 <ForceDestroyer> What are transaction hashes good for? *proves he only knows BitCoin on the surface* ^^;
2648 2011-04-07 22:52:39 <tcatm> they're used to identify a transaction
2649 2011-04-07 22:52:42 <grondilu> It gives me somewhere to look at.
2650 2011-04-07 22:53:09 <ForceDestroyer> Ah, in case you're not doing the transaction to your own node?
2651 2011-04-07 22:53:38 <ForceDestroyer> Or if it doesn't show up, I suppose...
2652 2011-04-07 22:53:51 <grondilu> well yes, more or less
2653 2011-04-07 22:54:17 <tcatm> oh you're not talking about bitcoin transactions?
2654 2011-04-07 22:54:25 <grondilu> yes I do
2655 2011-04-07 22:54:31 <grondilu> (am)
2656 2011-04-07 22:56:08 <grondilu> mtgox doesn't tell me anything execpt that "my transaction is on its way". That's not very helpful. I'd like a transaction hash so that I can see what happened if I don't get anything.
2657 2011-04-07 22:56:33 <tcatm> you do know the destination adress and amount, don't you?
2658 2011-04-07 22:56:47 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2659 2011-04-07 22:57:07 adlsaks has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2660 2011-04-07 22:57:18 <grondilu> yes, but if it comes from mtgox, they can not claim I made a mistake or something.
2661 2011-04-07 22:58:36 <grondilu> it's been two or three blocks now and still nothing.
2662 2011-04-07 22:59:02 <tcatm> did it appear on http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ ?
2663 2011-04-07 22:59:39 <grondilu> I don't want to search it there. Too much data.
2664 2011-04-07 22:59:58 <tcatm> ctrl+f and enter address
2665 2011-04-07 23:00:08 <grondilu> ooh
2666 2011-04-07 23:00:19 <grondilu> I didn't know that
2667 2011-04-07 23:00:59 wolfspraul has joined
2668 2011-04-07 23:01:06 <grondilu> I thought it was just graphic
2669 2011-04-07 23:01:14 agricocb has joined
2670 2011-04-07 23:02:56 <Kiba> grondilu: did ya check out my crowdfunded project?
2671 2011-04-07 23:03:02 <grondilu> so indeed they give the transaction hash
2672 2011-04-07 23:03:17 <grondilu> Kiba: no, give me a link
2673 2011-04-07 23:04:12 <grondilu> Kiba: hang, I think I know what you're talking about.
2674 2011-04-07 23:04:27 <grondilu> s/hang,/hang on,/
2675 2011-04-07 23:04:57 <grondilu> gosh I'm so tired I make too many tipos
2676 2011-04-07 23:05:06 <grondilu> I need to get some sleep
2677 2011-04-07 23:06:35 grondilu has quit (Quit: zzzzzz)
2678 2011-04-07 23:09:42 toffoo has quit ()
2679 2011-04-07 23:13:50 toffoo has joined
2680 2011-04-07 23:14:42 Cusipzzz has joined
2681 2011-04-07 23:14:48 theymos has joined
2682 2011-04-07 23:16:16 <theymos> Idea: Make limitfreerelay restrictions apply only per IP address. This would limit tx spam to the spammer's "neighborhood" on the network.
2683 2011-04-07 23:23:07 <stamit> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ntru/
2684 2011-04-07 23:24:34 tabsa has joined
2685 2011-04-07 23:26:09 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2686 2011-04-07 23:26:34 sneak has joined
2687 2011-04-07 23:27:11 sneak is now known as Guest73452
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2689 2011-04-07 23:41:37 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I have not proposed a mining protocol
2690 2011-04-07 23:41:51 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: I have proposed a protocol that meets multiple existing needs, one of which is mining
2691 2011-04-07 23:42:40 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: the monitorblocks functionality is something non-miners want
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