1 2011-04-12 00:00:01 <JFK911> if you are working with words you are probably taking word structure into account when you fetch them and move them thru your pipelines
   2 2011-04-12 00:00:43 <JFK911> ie. your word size registers mimic whatever is in memory
   3 2011-04-12 00:00:46 <phantomcircuit> JFK911, you're still thinking about the conversion being what im talking about
   4 2011-04-12 00:00:52 <phantomcircuit> im not
   5 2011-04-12 00:01:03 <JFK911> im thinking about not converting
   6 2011-04-12 00:01:16 <phantomcircuit> well
   7 2011-04-12 00:01:25 <JFK911> there are processors that do it both ways and get 1 or more operations per clock
   8 2011-04-12 00:01:40 <forrestv> luke-jr, thanks, already had something like that (that could do arbitrary lengths), i just was surprised there wasn't a builtin/faster way
   9 2011-04-12 00:01:57 NeBit has joined
  10 2011-04-12 00:02:22 <JFK911> probably 'either way' is a better thing to say
  11 2011-04-12 00:02:45 <JFK911> i wonder if eg. ppc/arm pci bus implementations are extra latent due to the endian flip they must do
  12 2011-04-12 00:02:59 <JFK911> some memory controllers can "just do this" like "magic" for a page
  13 2011-04-12 00:03:02 <NeBit> Is there a way to keep "generate coins" checked in the Win gui?
  14 2011-04-12 00:03:16 <luke-jr> NeBit: hopefully not
  15 2011-04-12 00:03:22 <KnuttyD> NeBit: pointless
  16 2011-04-12 00:03:38 <KnuttyD> You cant generate coins that way in this lifetime
  17 2011-04-12 00:03:56 <phantomcircuit> really that should be removed
  18 2011-04-12 00:04:13 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
  19 2011-04-12 00:04:14 <KnuttyD> People just waste power with it on now
  20 2011-04-12 00:04:39 <underscor> what do you guys mean?
  21 2011-04-12 00:04:48 <underscor> also, first time here :)
  22 2011-04-12 00:04:51 <luke-jr> underscor: we mean it's worthless
  23 2011-04-12 00:04:56 <NeBit> Who "gets" the generated coins
  24 2011-04-12 00:04:57 <KnuttyD> Its going to take years and years to generate a coin via the CPU
  25 2011-04-12 00:05:07 <KnuttyD> The difficulty is much too high
  26 2011-04-12 00:05:17 <sipa> NeBit: *if* you generate them, you
  27 2011-04-12 00:05:22 <KnuttyD> Exp. with all these GPU miners
  28 2011-04-12 00:05:42 <underscor> ah
  29 2011-04-12 00:05:59 <KnuttyD> If you have some serious GPU power, you have a chance at it
  30 2011-04-12 00:06:20 theorbtwo has joined
  31 2011-04-12 00:06:32 <NeBit> No, basic pc
  32 2011-04-12 00:06:33 <luke-jr> KnuttyD: not w/ "Generate Coins"
  33 2011-04-12 00:07:10 <KnuttyD> luke-jr: Sorry, I wasnt clear, you do need a GPU miner
  34 2011-04-12 00:09:45 <underscor> My friend has dual http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130630
  35 2011-04-12 00:09:58 <underscor> I wonder if he'd let me crunch bitcoin in his spare cycles
  36 2011-04-12 00:10:07 <luke-jr> sux
  37 2011-04-12 00:10:16 <KnuttyD> kinda pointless for GPU mining
  38 2011-04-12 00:10:38 <underscor> why?
  39 2011-04-12 00:10:42 <luke-jr> nvidia
  40 2011-04-12 00:10:54 <KnuttyD> i mean... it works... but that much spent on ati radeons would crunch some serious coin
  41 2011-04-12 00:10:54 <underscor> CUDA?
  42 2011-04-12 00:11:04 <KnuttyD> OpenCL
  43 2011-04-12 00:11:23 <underscor> It supports OpenCL
  44 2011-04-12 00:11:27 <underscor> Are radeons better at it?
  45 2011-04-12 00:11:29 <luke-jr> yeah, you could get Radeon 5970 for that price
  46 2011-04-12 00:11:31 <slush> underscor: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison
  47 2011-04-12 00:11:32 <luke-jr> underscor: FAR
  48 2011-04-12 00:11:38 <underscor> ah
  49 2011-04-12 00:11:41 <slush> underscor: nvidia is bad for mining
  50 2011-04-12 00:12:14 <KnuttyD> I understand it is bad at mining, but is there any particular hardware reason why?
  51 2011-04-12 00:12:28 ducki2p has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  52 2011-04-12 00:12:31 <luke-jr> nvidia is bad for everything
  53 2011-04-12 00:12:52 <KnuttyD> ... is that a real answer, or a fanboy answer?
  54 2011-04-12 00:13:17 <luke-jr> I don't use AMD
  55 2011-04-12 00:13:30 ducki2p has joined
  56 2011-04-12 00:13:40 <KnuttyD> Ok, just wondering why it is bad for mining.
  57 2011-04-12 00:13:59 <luke-jr> KnuttyD: check the SP count
  58 2011-04-12 00:14:08 <KnuttyD> stream processor?
  59 2011-04-12 00:14:13 <idnar> GTX 590 is cheaper here than the 5970
  60 2011-04-12 00:14:15 <luke-jr> shader processor
  61 2011-04-12 00:14:18 <KnuttyD> ok
  62 2011-04-12 00:14:19 <idnar> (last time I looked, anyway)
  63 2011-04-12 00:14:26 <idnar> (here -> South Africa)
  64 2011-04-12 00:14:33 <luke-jr> 1024 SP in that nvidia you linked
  65 2011-04-12 00:14:57 <luke-jr> even a Radeon 5830 has 1120 SP
  66 2011-04-12 00:15:12 <luke-jr> 5970 has 3200 SP
  67 2011-04-12 00:15:17 <underscor> Hm, how well would http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161366 do?
  68 2011-04-12 00:15:22 <underscor> Considering saving for it
  69 2011-04-12 00:15:51 <KnuttyD> underscor: looking at around 700mh/s
  70 2011-04-12 00:15:52 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 746000
  71 2011-04-12 00:15:53 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 746000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 5 days, 11 hours, 41 minutes, and 40 seconds
  72 2011-04-12 00:15:57 <luke-jr> that's *today*
  73 2011-04-12 00:16:02 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
  74 2011-04-12 00:16:06 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117894 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1049 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 89778.25121762
  75 2011-04-12 00:16:11 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calcd 746000 90000
  76 2011-04-12 00:16:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 746000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 90000, is 5 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes, and 59 seconds
  77 2011-04-12 00:16:14 <luke-jr> that's next week
  78 2011-04-12 00:16:25 <underscor> so, a block every 5 days?
  79 2011-04-12 00:16:33 <underscor> well, almost 6
  80 2011-04-12 00:16:36 <KnuttyD> 6
  81 2011-04-12 00:16:37 <KnuttyD> yea
  82 2011-04-12 00:16:39 <luke-jr> for the next 3 weeks
  83 2011-04-12 00:17:05 <KnuttyD> so, 8.33 btc per day
  84 2011-04-12 00:17:17 <luke-jr> no, 50 BTC every 6 days :P
  85 2011-04-12 00:17:28 <slush> ;;bc,gen 2445000
  86 2011-04-12 00:17:29 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2445000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 29.8643998245 BTC per day and 1.24434999269 BTC per hour.
  87 2011-04-12 00:17:55 <KnuttyD> 11c per kwh here x 24 x 6 = 15.84$ to run per 50btc
  88 2011-04-12 00:18:32 <KnuttyD> luke-jr: Average
  89 2011-04-12 00:25:10 darksk1ez has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  90 2011-04-12 00:25:48 darksk1ez has joined
  91 2011-04-12 00:26:02 darksk1ez has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  92 2011-04-12 00:26:06 <underscor> that's not bad
  93 2011-04-12 00:26:45 <KnuttyD> not bad, you just have to worry about cooling and electricity costs, as well as the value of a btc
  94 2011-04-12 00:26:52 <underscor> yeah
  95 2011-04-12 00:27:12 <luke-jr> so you get $24 each week for 3 weeks
  96 2011-04-12 00:27:17 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
  97 2011-04-12 00:27:18 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.799,"low":0.7103,"vol":15041,"buy":0.765,"sell":0.7989,"last":0.799}}
  98 2011-04-12 00:27:42 octarine has joined
  99 2011-04-12 00:27:47 octarine has left ()
 100 2011-04-12 00:28:19 <luke-jr> so $324 over 5 months or so
 101 2011-04-12 00:28:24 <luke-jr> =won't pay for itself
 102 2011-04-12 00:28:58 <bamccaig> I just installed openssl from source and still don't have openssl/ecdsa.h. :P
 103 2011-04-12 00:29:21 <bamccaig> It is in the source, but not installed.. :-/
 104 2011-04-12 00:29:22 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
 105 2011-04-12 00:29:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117894 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1049 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 89778.25121762
 106 2011-04-12 00:30:04 <KnuttyD> bamccaig: is it a depencency that needs installing?
 107 2011-04-12 00:30:16 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 1.24434999269 * 720
 108 2011-04-12 00:30:17 <gribble> 1.24434999269 * 720 = 895.931995
 109 2011-04-12 00:30:32 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,gen 600000
 110 2011-04-12 00:30:33 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 7.32868707351 BTC per day and 0.305361961396 BTC per hour.
 111 2011-04-12 00:30:39 <bamccaig> KnuttyD: Bitcoin seems to fail to build without it. :)
 112 2011-04-12 00:30:48 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 0.305361961396 * 720
 113 2011-04-12 00:30:48 <gribble> 0.305361961396 * 720 = 219.860612
 114 2011-04-12 00:31:01 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 115 2011-04-12 00:31:24 <midnightmagic> one 5970 does $219 per month at current difficulty. bah.
 116 2011-04-12 00:31:27 jrabbit has joined
 117 2011-04-12 00:31:34 <midnightmagic> ;-)
 118 2011-04-12 00:31:40 <KnuttyD> bamccaig: the bitcoin client, or a miner?
 119 2011-04-12 00:32:00 <bamccaig> KnuttyD: bitcoind.
 120 2011-04-12 00:32:29 <midnightmagic> bamccaig: you should build openssl as a user, and install it into your own home directory. inside bitcoin's makefile, you can then insert -I and -L to point to your homedir's openssl's include and libs, and the ecdsa.h will then be available.
 121 2011-04-12 00:33:21 <hozer> hrrm, now what did I order yesterday...
 122 2011-04-12 00:34:22 <hozer> bah, 5870
 123 2011-04-12 00:35:05 <midnightmagic> you can't just build it from source using apt-get source+debuild, or whatever it is you're using. you have to manually download it, and configure it, with --prefix=/home/youruser/openssl and so on.
 124 2011-04-12 00:36:15 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 0.2*720*0.12
 125 2011-04-12 00:36:16 <gribble> 0.2 * 720 * 0.12 = 17.28
 126 2011-04-12 00:36:31 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 0.3*720*0.12
 127 2011-04-12 00:36:31 <gribble> 0.3 * 720 * 0.12 = 25.92
 128 2011-04-12 00:36:49 <midnightmagic> $25.92 to run one 5970 for one month @ $0.12/Kwh
 129 2011-04-12 00:36:53 <midnightmagic> kWh even
 130 2011-04-12 00:37:07 <KnuttyD> What about the tiering of electricity charges
 131 2011-04-12 00:37:20 Avemo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 132 2011-04-12 00:37:24 <midnightmagic> only two tiers where i am. "using basically nothing" and "everything else"
 133 2011-04-12 00:37:25 <bamccaig> midnightmagic: Why though? :-/ Is it an internal header file or something like that?
 134 2011-04-12 00:38:18 <hozer> how many watts does a 5970 draw?
 135 2011-04-12 00:38:21 <KnuttyD> got like 3 tiers were i am.... sucks.
 136 2011-04-12 00:38:25 <midnightmagic> bamccaig: it's a header file for ecdsa which i don't think is included in the distros yet. or, at least, not in the versions the typical distros are sending out. either way, it doesn't matter. you don't just need the header file, either, the library itself has to include the routines.
 137 2011-04-12 00:38:30 <midnightmagic> hozer: 0.3kW
 138 2011-04-12 00:38:52 EPiSKiNG has joined
 139 2011-04-12 00:39:05 <hozer> ahh, that's what that was.
 140 2011-04-12 00:39:13 <midnightmagic> yah
 141 2011-04-12 00:39:15 <hozer> you're not counting the base system eaither
 142 2011-04-12 00:39:17 <hozer> ;)
 143 2011-04-12 00:39:37 <hozer> but we all leave those on 24x7 anyway
 144 2011-04-12 00:39:37 <midnightmagic> no, that's puny, mostly, esp. if you don't hook a hard drive up to it.
 145 2011-04-12 00:39:55 <midnightmagic> right, or you're using a pre-existing system you leave on anyway.
 146 2011-04-12 00:39:58 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,stats
 147 2011-04-12 00:40:00 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117894 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 1049 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 16 hours, 33 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 89778.25121762
 148 2011-04-12 00:40:30 <hozer> when do people quit mining because electricity costs more?
 149 2011-04-12 00:40:45 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,calcd 600000, 89778.25121762
 150 2011-04-12 00:40:45 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 151 2011-04-12 00:40:49 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,calcd 600000 89778.25121762
 152 2011-04-12 00:40:49 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 600000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 89778.25121762, is 1 week, 0 days, 10 hours, 30 minutes, and 57 seconds
 153 2011-04-12 00:40:59 <hozer> or is this sort of an inelastic market where nobody thinks about that ;)
 154 2011-04-12 00:41:05 <midnightmagic> 200฿ per month, geez.
 155 2011-04-12 00:41:29 <hozer> how do I get the B symbol
 156 2011-04-12 00:41:36 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,totalbc
 157 2011-04-12 00:41:36 <gribble> 5894750.00000000
 158 2011-04-12 00:42:09 <midnightmagic> hozer: i guess that depends on whether you get miners desperate enough to sell who are okay with cutting their own throats, or you get botnet participation and someone is willing to essentially take out the market in exchange for a few thousand.
 159 2011-04-12 00:42:20 <midnightmagic> hozer: are you on Linux?
 160 2011-04-12 00:42:24 <hozer> yes
 161 2011-04-12 00:43:09 <bamccaig> midnightmagic: I installed openssl by source, not by package management. It didn't install include/openssl/ecdsa.h either.
 162 2011-04-12 00:43:17 <midnightmagic> it's complicated. First, pick an unused key. Then run xev in a window and find out what X thinks its name is. Then remap it to the Compose key: xmodmap -e 'keysym Key_Name = Multi_key'
 163 2011-04-12 00:43:21 <midnightmagic> in my case, I use Super_L.
 164 2011-04-12 00:43:41 <midnightmagic> bamccaig: you might need to enable ecdsa in configure.  run ./configure --help | grep -i ecd
 165 2011-04-12 00:43:54 <bamccaig> In any case, pointing the makefile at the source include directory got rid of those errors, but now gcc fails because the obj directory doesn't exist... :-/
 166 2011-04-12 00:44:48 <hozer> so just hit whatever I remap to 'Multi_key' ?
 167 2011-04-12 00:45:01 <midnightmagic> hozer: then, you have to set up your .XCompose to configure a key sequence for the ฿ symbol. I use <Multi_key> <b> <t> <c> : "XXX" U0E3F # Thai currency Baht (also for bitcoins)
 168 2011-04-12 00:45:05 <NeBit> Do I understand correctly that you cannot make coins at a profit with some extreme gpu?
 169 2011-04-12 00:45:27 <hozer> aaah, okay
 170 2011-04-12 00:46:12 <hozer> we're gonna have some confused taiwanese ;)
 171 2011-04-12 00:46:15 <midnightmagic> hozer: then you need to ensure you restart whatever X program you run, and you should Just Get the ฿. Except if you use Gnome, in which case you have to export: export GTK_IM_MODULE=xim to override Gnome's stupid Unicode input mechanism.
 172 2011-04-12 00:46:46 <hozer> NeBit: the answer is a big 'maybe'
 173 2011-04-12 00:46:49 Dark_Ghost has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 174 2011-04-12 00:46:51 <midnightmagic> hozer: Thai actually. Then, you have to make sure your environment is a UTF. I personally use: export LC_ALL=en_CA.UTF-8 and I have Canadian language packs installed.
 175 2011-04-12 00:46:57 <[Tycho]> NeBit, yes, you can make profit if difficulty won't rise too fast.
 176 2011-04-12 00:47:28 <midnightmagic> hozer: Anyway, that should do it then.
 177 2011-04-12 00:47:41 <midnightmagic> NeBit: and if the price doesn't fall too fast.
 178 2011-04-12 00:47:59 <midnightmagic> NeBit: bit actual profit margins have shrunk considerably between January and now.
 179 2011-04-12 00:48:40 <hozer> midnightmagic: Thanks ;)
 180 2011-04-12 00:48:43 <midnightmagic> NeBit: and for many people, electricity costs nearly as much as they can sell ฿ for, in which case their profit is nearing quitting time anyway.
 181 2011-04-12 00:49:16 <midnightmagic> hozer: NOTE: the .XCompose file must have the actual UTF-8 key sequence in it where I put "XXX"!
 182 2011-04-12 00:49:35 wolfspraul has joined
 183 2011-04-12 00:50:01 <midnightmagic> NeBit: but the waste heat generated by the miners SHOULD be used in winter time to subsidize heating, and/or the waterblocks used in cooling the video cards used to feed your boiler. all efficiencies change if you can do that.
 184 2011-04-12 00:50:15 <hozer> hehe
 185 2011-04-12 00:50:24 <hozer> let's see if the mining rate is seasonal ;)
 186 2011-04-12 00:50:34 <midnightmagic> not so far..
 187 2011-04-12 00:50:40 <midnightmagic> dinnertime, ciao
 188 2011-04-12 00:50:53 <KnuttyD> hozer: i have seen people in the forums talking about cooling costs in the summer
 189 2011-04-12 00:50:59 <KnuttyD> midnight: peace out
 190 2011-04-12 00:51:39 <midnightmagic> fan cooling may be worth it, a/c costs almost certainly aren't. move to the mountains if you want cheap summer ฿
 191 2011-04-12 00:52:05 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 840000
 192 2011-04-12 00:52:06 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 840000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 10.2601619029 BTC per day and 0.427506745955 BTC per hour.
 193 2011-04-12 00:52:26 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calc 1872030
 194 2011-04-12 00:52:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1872030 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes, and 47 seconds
 195 2011-04-12 00:53:15 <midnightmagic> and, if you don't want other people to see how much you think your miners are doing, the equation is simple:  (D*(2^32))/(3600*H) (result is in hours)
 196 2011-04-12 00:54:38 <NeBit> Just for kicks --> Has anyone (lately) generated coins with a CPU?   How small are the odds?!??  lol
 197 2011-04-12 00:54:49 <KnuttyD> NeBit: too small
 198 2011-04-12 00:55:01 <KnuttyD> Years on my 12 core @ 4.2ghz
 199 2011-04-12 00:55:11 <NeBit> Years?!?!?!
 200 2011-04-12 00:55:17 <KnuttyD> Yup
 201 2011-04-12 00:55:18 <luke-jr> lulz
 202 2011-04-12 00:55:25 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 14000
 203 2011-04-12 00:55:26 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 14000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 41 weeks, 5 days, 9 hours, 25 minutes, and 59 seconds
 204 2011-04-12 00:55:32 <NeBit> Maybe its time to go back to SETI
 205 2011-04-12 00:55:40 <JFK911> seti wont run on gpu?
 206 2011-04-12 00:55:50 <JFK911> sad
 207 2011-04-12 00:55:54 <luke-jr> KnuttyD: my quad core @ 3.10 GHz can do it in a year ;)
 208 2011-04-12 00:56:09 <luke-jr> JFK911: mining will run on GPU :P
 209 2011-04-12 00:56:14 tylergillies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 210 2011-04-12 00:56:22 <luke-jr> SETI is more of a waste than mining, in either CPU or GPU :P
 211 2011-04-12 00:56:22 <KnuttyD> lol, need to check my decimal places :P
 212 2011-04-12 00:56:25 <NeBit> No, I mean its pointless like finding ETs with SETI
 213 2011-04-12 00:56:36 <luke-jr> KnuttyD: no, my quad core is probably better ;)
 214 2011-04-12 00:56:48 <NeBit> yes a waster either way
 215 2011-04-12 00:56:55 <KnuttyD> ;;bc;calc, 8434000
 216 2011-04-12 00:56:56 <gribble> Error: "bc;calc," is not a valid command.
 217 2011-04-12 00:57:01 <luke-jr> :o
 218 2011-04-12 00:57:04 <KnuttyD> ;;bc,calc, 8434000
 219 2011-04-12 00:57:05 <gribble> Error: "bc,calc," is not a valid command.
 220 2011-04-12 00:57:12 <KnuttyD> ;;bc,calc 8434000
 221 2011-04-12 00:57:12 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 8434000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 11 hours, 38 minutes, and 54 seconds
 222 2011-04-12 00:57:20 <luke-jr> o crap
 223 2011-04-12 00:57:22 <luke-jr> plz dont do that
 224 2011-04-12 00:57:30 <KnuttyD> is calc in khashes or hashes?
 225 2011-04-12 00:57:35 <luke-jr> kH
 226 2011-04-12 00:57:39 <KnuttyD> ohh....
 227 2011-04-12 00:57:46 <KnuttyD> ;;bc,calc 8434
 228 2011-04-12 00:57:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 8434 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1 year, 17 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 34 minutes, and 22 seconds
 229 2011-04-12 00:57:54 <KnuttyD> There we go
 230 2011-04-12 00:57:54 <luke-jr> KnuttyD: my CPU is brand new, so it has better design
 231 2011-04-12 00:58:10 <KnuttyD> Probably. Im using an Intel 980x EE
 232 2011-04-12 00:58:25 <KnuttyD> Hyperthreading effectivly does nothing on this
 233 2011-04-12 00:59:27 <NeBit> One thing I don't understand is it says its not determined by the amount of CPU power you have - but isn't it?
 234 2011-04-12 00:59:37 <luke-jr> ?
 235 2011-04-12 00:59:50 <KnuttyD> It says its not based on the electricity you put into it
 236 2011-04-12 01:00:06 <luke-jr> what says
 237 2011-04-12 01:00:13 <NeBit> But it is based on your horespower of your pc?
 238 2011-04-12 01:00:16 <hozer> it's based on how many hashes/second your computing hardware can do
 239 2011-04-12 01:00:16 <KnuttyD> what you get is proportinal to the amt of CPU (err... GPU) power you put into the system
 240 2011-04-12 01:00:43 <KnuttyD> Is a 5830 worth it for 95$
 241 2011-04-12 01:00:45 <KnuttyD> ?
 242 2011-04-12 01:00:55 <hozer> and some hardware (like AMD GPU's) is about 10 ot 100 times better at converting electrical power into hashes per second than anything else
 243 2011-04-12 01:01:04 <NeBit> Kinda like it doesn't matter the horsepower of your engine, just how fast your car goes
 244 2011-04-12 01:01:10 <hozer> KnuttyD: worth it for what
 245 2011-04-12 01:01:29 <KnuttyD> is 95$ worth it for a used Radeon HD 5830?
 246 2011-04-12 01:01:49 <KnuttyD> I like it how worth it lined up there
 247 2011-04-12 01:02:05 <hozer> Nebit, more like what it costs you to per ton of payload per mile
 248 2011-04-12 01:02:45 <hozer> well, that's not even a good analogy
 249 2011-04-12 01:04:35 purpleposeidon has joined
 250 2011-04-12 01:05:15 <NeBit> Well, theoretically speaking - if you had lets say a mainframe and could dominate everyone else, couldn't one person generate most of the coins?
 251 2011-04-12 01:05:34 tylergillies has joined
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 253 2011-04-12 01:05:34 tylergillies has joined
 254 2011-04-12 01:05:55 <KnuttyD> NeBit: Yep
 255 2011-04-12 01:06:02 <hozer> well, if I had a 1000 node Radeon 5870 GPU cluster, I could dominate everyone else
 256 2011-04-12 01:06:19 Deltafire has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 257 2011-04-12 01:06:22 <KnuttyD> The problem is paying for the hardware
 258 2011-04-12 01:07:14 <KnuttyD> Anyone ever though of paying a rendering farm for time to generate?
 259 2011-04-12 01:07:14 <hozer> yeah... you'll never get anywhere using bitcoin you generate to buy more hardware (as that's what everyone is trying to do)
 260 2011-04-12 01:07:40 <NeBit> Well I was thinking of a business with a large but maybe old mainframe/hardware they could use and would pay for the electricity
 261 2011-04-12 01:07:56 <hozer> find me a rendering farm with AMD gpus
 262 2011-04-12 01:08:17 <KnuttyD> Exactly. Only problem is most 3D software relys on the CPU for calculations....
 263 2011-04-12 01:08:25 <hozer> NeBit: my cell phone can do more computations/sec than some existing old mainframes
 264 2011-04-12 01:08:43 <NeBit> Not the HAL9000
 265 2011-04-12 01:08:56 subpar has joined
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 268 2011-04-12 01:09:01 <hozer> Every 18 months or so, Intel/Amd/IBM have a new chip that's got say 20% more transistors on it than the last one
 269 2011-04-12 01:09:20 <NeBit> Interesting to think someone or a business COULD generate all the coins if they had the hardware
 270 2011-04-12 01:09:21 <KnuttyD> Thats 2001 harware, my droid sholes could whoop its ass
 271 2011-04-12 01:09:33 <KnuttyD> But is it cost effective
 272 2011-04-12 01:09:38 <KnuttyD> Answer: nope.
 273 2011-04-12 01:09:51 <NeBit> Right, could it be done and they make $
 274 2011-04-12 01:10:03 <KnuttyD> hozer: more's law
 275 2011-04-12 01:10:16 <KnuttyD> *moore's law
 276 2011-04-12 01:10:56 <hozer> NeBit: but *if* they had that kind of hardware, someone would be paying a lot of money to run CFD simulations
 277 2011-04-12 01:11:21 <hozer> or oil&gas resevoir modeling simulations, or any other number of high-performance apps
 278 2011-04-12 01:11:43 <NeBit> I understand - that's why I said 'theoretically speaking'
 279 2011-04-12 01:12:18 <KnuttyD> I'm sure there are mainfraims out there that are able to compute bitcoins, but a company would charge more to compute than you would be making
 280 2011-04-12 01:12:22 tylergillies has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 281 2011-04-12 01:12:35 orbiting has joined
 282 2011-04-12 01:12:38 <Sonihr> anyone knows how to add the python path in win 7
 283 2011-04-12 01:12:44 <NeBit> I find it interesting to think one person 'could' generate all the coins if they wanted
 284 2011-04-12 01:12:56 <KnuttyD> yea, PATH="python dir"
 285 2011-04-12 01:13:04 <KnuttyD> That they could
 286 2011-04-12 01:13:28 <KnuttyD> Someone could also spend their life savings on oreo cookies :P
 287 2011-04-12 01:13:32 <Sonihr> where do I put that knuttyd ?
 288 2011-04-12 01:13:52 <LightRider> They don't need to generate all the coins, they just need to be able to jack the difficulty up enough that no one else could generate coins to cover cost or accumulate any volume
 289 2011-04-12 01:13:54 <NeBit> I wonder how fast our server farm could finish those
 290 2011-04-12 01:14:20 <KnuttyD> Sonihr: the cmd prompt
 291 2011-04-12 01:14:23 <ArtForz> unless they dont pay for power at all, very unlikely
 292 2011-04-12 01:14:50 <Sonihr> I want it to be part of my environement variable
 293 2011-04-12 01:14:57 <KnuttyD> LightRider: If they jack up the diff for everyone, they also jack it up for themselves
 294 2011-04-12 01:15:04 <hozer> NeBit: what kind of server farm
 295 2011-04-12 01:15:29 <ArtForz> to get 50%, you'd currently need... about 2000 5870s
 296 2011-04-12 01:15:30 <NeBit> Yes, for a while they could dominate and make currency like the Fed but eventually it gets harder and the payout goes down
 297 2011-04-12 01:15:33 <KnuttyD> sonihr: yep, go run->cmd, type PATH="your python install dir"
 298 2011-04-12 01:16:06 <hozer> now... what about the transaction fees?
 299 2011-04-12 01:16:07 <hacim> at what temp does a 5870 start to shutdown?
 300 2011-04-12 01:16:23 <Sonihr> thanks knuttyd
 301 2011-04-12 01:16:23 <ArtForz> 125 VRM, 105 core
 302 2011-04-12 01:16:34 * hozer plots to build a 2000 5870 cluster with a wind turbine for power
 303 2011-04-12 01:16:39 <ArtForz> throttling is iirc at 120/100
 304 2011-04-12 01:16:50 <LightRider> that's only important if you assume what they want is bitcoins
 305 2011-04-12 01:17:02 <LightRider> not if what they want is to make the bitcoin system impractial
 306 2011-04-12 01:17:05 <LightRider> impractical
 307 2011-04-12 01:17:11 <hozer> ;;bc calc 229*2000
 308 2011-04-12 01:17:11 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
 309 2011-04-12 01:17:24 <hozer> ;; calc 229*2000
 310 2011-04-12 01:17:24 <gribble> 229 * 2,000 = 458,000
 311 2011-04-12 01:17:26 <Sonihr> can gpu or cpu catch on fire while im at work ?
 312 2011-04-12 01:17:41 <NeBit> Can your house?
 313 2011-04-12 01:17:42 <KnuttyD> it should throttle so it dosent
 314 2011-04-12 01:17:43 <noagendamarket> if you work at a petrol station
 315 2011-04-12 01:17:46 <hozer> so I need half a million for the GPUs
 316 2011-04-12 01:17:49 <noagendamarket> anfd you light it
 317 2011-04-12 01:17:50 <hacim> hm. ok because its been warm here and my card has throttled itself
 318 2011-04-12 01:18:00 <hacim> and i cant unthrottle it without rebooting
 319 2011-04-12 01:18:09 <KnuttyD> I would open a window or turn on the AC
 320 2011-04-12 01:18:40 * KnuttyD puts cooling radiator in freezer
 321 2011-04-12 01:18:41 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 322 2011-04-12 01:18:59 <hozer> ArtForz: how much of an inverse correlation with summer temperature and Thash/sec do you think there will be ;)
 323 2011-04-12 01:19:29 EvanR has joined
 324 2011-04-12 01:19:34 <noagendamarket> all the miners should move to australia :)
 325 2011-04-12 01:19:37 <hozer> and is there anyplace I can buy a 5870 with a waterblock already on it?
 326 2011-04-12 01:19:43 <KnuttyD> Would a used Radeon HD 5830 be worth it for 95$?
 327 2011-04-12 01:19:56 <KnuttyD> hozer: Ebay, other than that I dont believe they come that way
 328 2011-04-12 01:20:32 <hozer> KnuttyD: would you buy a 3 month used 5770 for 158 bitcoin? ;)
 329 2011-04-12 01:20:48 <hozer> (I paid $158 USD for it)
 330 2011-04-12 01:20:52 <KnuttyD> If I had that much :P I have around 3 right now
 331 2011-04-12 01:20:55 <forrestv> hozer, wouldn't there be a positive correlation? more hashes -> more heat generated
 332 2011-04-12 01:21:23 <hozer> forrestv: no, because everone's overclocked miners will crash on the first heat wave ;)
 333 2011-04-12 01:21:33 <KnuttyD> forrestv: yes, but i think he means the throttling caused by summer heat
 334 2011-04-12 01:21:33 <bamccaig> Now it fails because it can't find boost_thread-mt... /usr/lib/libboost_thread-mt.so is happily installed though...
 335 2011-04-12 01:21:39 <ArtForz> btw, even with custom cases thats about 50 full racks...
 336 2011-04-12 01:21:48 <bamccaig> Is it trying to statically link or something? In /Linux/? :-o
 337 2011-04-12 01:22:14 <hozer> ArtForz: yeah, I think that will fit in a 40ft shipping container
 338 2011-04-12 01:22:37 <hozer> what's a 5870.. 200 watts if you include the system it's in?
 339 2011-04-12 01:22:45 <ArtForz> yeah
 340 2011-04-12 01:22:45 <hozer> ;; calc 200*2000
 341 2011-04-12 01:22:46 <gribble> 200 * 2,000 = 400,000
 342 2011-04-12 01:23:01 <KnuttyD> So, what did everyone here buy their Radeon 5830s for?
 343 2011-04-12 01:23:18 <ArtForz> 200W/U is doable with air
 344 2011-04-12 01:23:28 <hozer> ;; calc 200*2*0.10
 345 2011-04-12 01:23:28 <gribble> 200 * 2 * 0.10 = 40
 346 2011-04-12 01:23:43 <hozer> $40 dollars per hour for power
 347 2011-04-12 01:23:55 <ArtForz> ?
 348 2011-04-12 01:24:09 <ArtForz> yea
 349 2011-04-12 01:24:17 <hozer> 0.2 KW * 2000 * $0.10/kwh
 350 2011-04-12 01:24:30 <ArtForz> yup
 351 2011-04-12 01:24:44 <JFK911> 0.10 is cheap
 352 2011-04-12 01:25:10 <ArtForz> not really
 353 2011-04-12 01:25:18 <hozer> well, if I had a container of them, I'd go work a deal with the power company for an interruptable rate, and get $0.05 per kwh
 354 2011-04-12 01:25:20 <JFK911> what do you pay
 355 2011-04-12 01:25:31 * hozer pays $0.08 or so
 356 2011-04-12 01:25:57 <ArtForz> for my GPUs, $0.30/kWh in summer, $0/kWh in winter
 357 2011-04-12 01:26:03 * KnuttyD pays .20$ or so RAGE RAGE
 358 2011-04-12 01:26:05 <JFK911> i heard of people who have to pay 0.30
 359 2011-04-12 01:26:08 redengin has joined
 360 2011-04-12 01:26:45 <hozer> KnuttyD: you can put up solar panels for that.. get off the grid and get unraged ;)
 361 2011-04-12 01:27:09 <hozer> or move to Iowa ;)
 362 2011-04-12 01:27:22 <KnuttyD> I would, but 16K for a 4kwh system is a little out of budged D:
 363 2011-04-12 01:27:27 <KnuttyD> *budget
 364 2011-04-12 01:27:42 <KnuttyD> Haha or Sweeden
 365 2011-04-12 01:28:47 <hozer> KnuttyD: I don't know how many khash a 5830 does, but it seems like it's not worth it.. best deal would be a 5870 I think (but that's $229)
 366 2011-04-12 01:29:13 <KnuttyD> 5830 does 241,h/s
 367 2011-04-12 01:29:18 <KnuttyD> *mh/s
 368 2011-04-12 01:29:25 <ArtForz> 5830 is pretty exactly 2/3 of a 5870 stock
 369 2011-04-12 01:29:35 <ArtForz> that'd be a 5850 ...
 370 2011-04-12 01:29:56 <hozer> I missed something here
 371 2011-04-12 01:30:03 <hozer> how many SP is a 5830?
 372 2011-04-12 01:30:08 <ArtForz> 1120
 373 2011-04-12 01:30:15 <hozer> 900mhz?
 374 2011-04-12 01:30:19 <ArtForz> 800
 375 2011-04-12 01:30:27 <KnuttyD> overclock it
 376 2011-04-12 01:30:38 <ArtForz> and uses nearly as much power as a 5870
 377 2011-04-12 01:30:45 <ArtForz> OCs like hell though
 378 2011-04-12 01:30:49 <KnuttyD> says they overclocked it to 1006
 379 2011-04-12 01:30:54 <ArtForz> usually 5830s OC higher than 5870s
 380 2011-04-12 01:30:58 <ArtForz> yea
 381 2011-04-12 01:31:00 <hozer> oh, well $94 is a good deal it seems like
 382 2011-04-12 01:31:06 <ArtForz> most can get close to 1000
 383 2011-04-12 01:31:20 <KnuttyD> Well shit, imma gettin me a card from craigslist :D
 384 2011-04-12 01:31:36 <hozer> I'm only getting 160 khash/sec on a 5770
 385 2011-04-12 01:31:51 <hozer> err Mhash
 386 2011-04-12 01:32:04 <ArtForz> ... so?
 387 2011-04-12 01:32:14 <ArtForz> thats pretty decent at stock clock
 388 2011-04-12 01:32:19 <KnuttyD> Thats over the hardware plage clock
 389 2011-04-12 01:32:22 <KnuttyD> *pag
 390 2011-04-12 01:32:25 <KnuttyD> *pageeee
 391 2011-04-12 01:33:04 <hozer> ArtForz: I can get up to about 170-175 if I push it, but I prefer stability on my desktop
 392 2011-04-12 01:33:33 <ArtForz> well, the numbers on the miner comparison are mostly from my old cl miner, current miners are about 3-4% faster
 393 2011-04-12 01:34:37 <hozer> hrrm, I clocked it at 915, I'm getting 161-165 on poclbm-mod
 394 2011-04-12 01:35:25 <ArtForz> thats not too great
 395 2011-04-12 01:35:58 <ArtForz> running with high -f or something?
 396 2011-04-12 01:36:12 <ArtForz> should be > 170Mh at that clock
 397 2011-04-12 01:36:57 <hozer> hrrm
 398 2011-04-12 01:37:00 <hozer> something's not right
 399 2011-04-12 01:37:05 <hozer> what does -f do?
 400 2011-04-12 01:37:14 <gjs278> sets your frames
 401 2011-04-12 01:37:15 NeBit has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 402 2011-04-12 01:37:20 <gjs278> so you can actually use the card will hashing
 403 2011-04-12 01:37:30 <hozer> I was dumb and decided to push the clock up. It worked at 975
 404 2011-04-12 01:37:33 <gjs278> I get 342mhash on a 5870 at 900 clock
 405 2011-04-12 01:37:38 <hozer> and locked at 1000 ;)
 406 2011-04-12 01:37:43 <ArtForz> generally higher -f = more responsive desktop, lower speed
 407 2011-04-12 01:37:56 <gjs278> 60 is good for linux
 408 2011-04-12 01:37:59 <gjs278> for browsing
 409 2011-04-12 01:38:01 <gjs278> and everything
 410 2011-04-12 01:38:11 <gjs278> 360 is you want to play a game is what I usually go with but 120 may work
 411 2011-04-12 01:38:38 lfm has joined
 412 2011-04-12 01:38:57 <gjs278> 950 core clock I crash too much
 413 2011-04-12 01:39:03 <hozer> I bet pocblm-mod has a higher default -f
 414 2011-04-12 01:39:09 <gjs278> well
 415 2011-04-12 01:39:12 <gjs278> they both probably default to 30
 416 2011-04-12 01:40:37 <gjs278> tbh the difference isnt that much, setting high frames to the point you cant browse is pointless
 417 2011-04-12 01:41:25 <idnar> we need gpunice :P
 418 2011-04-12 01:41:37 bamccaig has left ()
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 420 2011-04-12 01:42:29 <hozer> hrrm, it does default to 30
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 429 2011-04-12 02:02:32 grondilu has joined
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 431 2011-04-12 02:03:49 <hozer> okay, so I think what I need is to check how long the GUI (X) has been idle, and if it's more than say 10 seconds, have pocblm crank the frames down to say 1
 432 2011-04-12 02:05:16 Poopsie has joined
 433 2011-04-12 02:06:40 <gjs278> hozer I tried that
 434 2011-04-12 02:06:43 grondilu has left ()
 435 2011-04-12 02:06:46 <gjs278> I could not get it to adjust frames on the fly
 436 2011-04-12 02:07:15 <gjs278> like once the frames are set and it starts, I cant get it to adjust
 437 2011-04-12 02:08:13 Kicchiri has joined
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 439 2011-04-12 02:22:31 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Ehud Ben-Reuven * r1dcc04..886abf iOSApp/ (26 files in 3 dirs): (14 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3mbwnhm
 440 2011-04-12 02:27:13 <luke-jr> :o
 441 2011-04-12 02:27:32 <luke-jr> who is that anyhow
 442 2011-04-12 02:28:33 <joepie91> slightly offtopic but potentially relevant: http://anonnews.org/?p=press&a=item&i=809
 443 2011-04-12 02:30:43 <forrestv> oh, int(s.encode('hex'), 16) works
 444 2011-04-12 02:31:01 <forrestv> and ('%x' % i).decode('hex')
 445 2011-04-12 02:31:24 Kiba has joined
 446 2011-04-12 02:31:26 <luke-jr> lol
 447 2011-04-12 02:36:24 sss has joined
 448 2011-04-12 02:36:52 <sss> agreed
 449 2011-04-12 02:36:53 <sss> !
 450 2011-04-12 02:37:15 Dark_Ghost has joined
 451 2011-04-12 02:37:23 deryl_ has joined
 452 2011-04-12 02:37:51 <sss> besides #bitcoin-dev what are other populated channels
 453 2011-04-12 02:37:58 Avemo has joined
 454 2011-04-12 02:38:10 <robblesz> bitcoin-otc, bitcoin-discussion, bitcoin-mining
 455 2011-04-12 02:38:45 <sss> ok awesome
 456 2011-04-12 02:39:05 danbri has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 457 2011-04-12 02:40:06 <Blitzboom> https://forum.flattr.net/showthread.php?tid=550&pid=4370#pid4370
 458 2011-04-12 02:40:34 <Blitzboom> if we can offer flattr a euro-BTC exchanger, they will probably add it as funding option
 459 2011-04-12 02:40:36 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 460 2011-04-12 02:40:39 <nanotube> ;;bc,channels
 461 2011-04-12 02:40:39 <gribble> Bitcoin channel topics | #bitcoin-dev - development | #bitcoin-discussion - general bitcoin-related | #bitcoin-mining - mining | #bitcoin-market - streaming market quotes | #bitcoin-otc - trading marketplace | #bitcoin-offtopic - offtopic
 462 2011-04-12 02:40:41 <nanotube> sss: ^
 463 2011-04-12 02:40:46 <Blitzboom> err, other way. bitcoin to euro
 464 2011-04-12 02:40:58 <sss> thanks
 465 2011-04-12 02:41:14 <Blitzboom> i just researched, linus olsson is one of the founders
 466 2011-04-12 02:41:34 EvanR has joined
 467 2011-04-12 02:41:52 deryl_ has quit (Client Quit)
 468 2011-04-12 02:42:08 <sss> who is linus olsson
 469 2011-04-12 02:42:22 <Blitzboom> flattr founder
 470 2011-04-12 02:42:38 <sss> makes sense
 471 2011-04-12 02:43:01 <sss> :)
 472 2011-04-12 02:45:08 <sss> since im bored
 473 2011-04-12 02:45:15 <sss> lets have a rousing bitcoin discussion
 474 2011-04-12 02:46:10 danbri has joined
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 490 2011-04-12 03:27:44 * shdwfear notes silently the whole server is logged.
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 500 2011-04-12 03:44:22 phantomcircuit_ has joined
 501 2011-04-12 03:44:27 <phantomcircuit_> WASSSUPPPPPPP
 502 2011-04-12 03:44:35 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 503 2011-04-12 03:45:25 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 504 2011-04-12 03:46:42 <Mixxit>  undefined reference to `vtable for boost::detail::thread_data_base'
 505 2011-04-12 03:46:50 <Mixxit> anyone got a sample makefile?
 506 2011-04-12 03:50:24 <luke-jr> Mixxit: makefile.unix?
 507 2011-04-12 03:50:33 <Mixxit> yeah that's what im using
 508 2011-04-12 03:51:27 <luke-jr> change 'static' to 'dynamic' in it
 509 2011-04-12 03:56:12 dissipate has joined
 510 2011-04-12 03:57:09 EPiSKiNG has joined
 511 2011-04-12 03:57:45 <EPiSKiNG> I'm using two 5970s and for some reason, GPU4 wont overclock when using CCC or Afterburner
 512 2011-04-12 03:57:49 <Mixxit> Assembler messages:
 513 2011-04-12 03:57:49 <Mixxit> Fatal error: can't create obj/nogui/util.o: No such file or directory
 514 2011-04-12 03:57:52 <EPiSKiNG> anyone experienced the same issues?
 515 2011-04-12 03:58:13 sacarlson has joined
 516 2011-04-12 03:58:23 <EPiSKiNG> clock and mem wont change when I change settings on only that one gpu
 517 2011-04-12 03:58:27 <EPiSKiNG> the other 3 work just fine
 518 2011-04-12 04:00:39 orbiting has joined
 519 2011-04-12 04:00:55 <Mixxit> i dont even a have nogui directory
 520 2011-04-12 04:02:21 EvanR has joined
 521 2011-04-12 04:03:46 <phantomcircuit_> Mixxit, make bitcoind
 522 2011-04-12 04:03:50 <Mixxit> thts what im mkaing
 523 2011-04-12 04:04:55 <Mixxit> http://pastebin.com/2q4BBNCZ
 524 2011-04-12 04:06:59 <Mixxit> Fatal error: can't create obj/nogui/util.o: No such file or directory
 525 2011-04-12 04:07:05 <Mixxit> isnt that supposed to make that
 526 2011-04-12 04:07:14 <Mixxit> so its expected not to find it?
 527 2011-04-12 04:09:30 redMBA has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 528 2011-04-12 04:09:47 <Mixxit> ah, i see it doesnt make obj/nogui
 529 2011-04-12 04:10:08 <Mixxit> not very informative error (- no such file or directory - but we're not saying which one! )
 530 2011-04-12 04:13:02 orbiting has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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 535 2011-04-12 04:50:14 <Mixxit> http://pastebin.com/vKVRw1kj
 536 2011-04-12 04:50:17 <Mixxit> my output and my config
 537 2011-04-12 04:50:31 <Mixxit> http://pastebin.com/Nc2atUcN
 538 2011-04-12 04:50:34 <Mixxit> any ideas?
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 541 2011-04-12 05:14:34 phantomcircuit_ has joined
 542 2011-04-12 05:14:37 <phantomcircuit_> uh
 543 2011-04-12 05:14:54 <phantomcircuit_> so can someone explain the rationale behind the 4 sig types for checksig?
 544 2011-04-12 05:15:19 purpleposeidon has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
 545 2011-04-12 05:16:40 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit_: there's 4?
 546 2011-04-12 05:16:55 <luke-jr> I mean, kinda wish there were more… :P
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 586 2011-04-12 07:01:02 <sacarlson> ok I found the hardcoded IRC address irc.lfnet.org in irc.cpp , just starting to get an idea how it works I see 3204 people or addresses in that #bitcoin room
 587 2011-04-12 07:01:59 fimp has joined
 588 2011-04-12 07:02:36 <lfm> sacarlson: thats actually a pool of servers
 589 2011-04-12 07:03:04 <sacarlson> I guess when I run bitcoin I become a server?
 590 2011-04-12 07:03:15 <lfm> nope
 591 2011-04-12 07:03:24 <lfm> not an irc server
 592 2011-04-12 07:03:43 <sacarlson> no I mean I must become a bitcoin server when I'm running
 593 2011-04-12 07:04:16 <lfm> well more like just a node, it is distributed so its not really servers and clients
 594 2011-04-12 07:04:50 <sacarlson> ifm: isn't that what I become and I add to that list in that irc channel
 595 2011-04-12 07:05:48 <lfm> well you will start to receive connections but its not really a client server relationship. the nodes are all equivalent really
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 601 2011-04-12 07:20:57 <sacarlson> ifm: but I become a node do I not when I run my bitcoin or bitcoind correct?
 602 2011-04-12 07:24:48 <lfm> ya, thats the idea
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 606 2011-04-12 07:29:59 <sacarlson> so what sequence is the chain of nodes updated with a transaction?  is that random?
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 609 2011-04-12 07:34:42 <lfm> sacarlson: no set sequence, it is a network. each node is connected to 8 or more other nodes, ya sorta random flood mode
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 628 2011-04-12 08:16:52 <topi`> in the same vein, even the internet requires routing logic, because most internet routers are connected to 8 or more other internet routers.
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 630 2011-04-12 08:26:43 <lfm> um, you sure about that\/
 631 2011-04-12 08:26:49 <lfm> ?
 632 2011-04-12 08:28:33 teathsch has joined
 633 2011-04-12 08:28:49 <Diablo-D3> topi` fails at the internet.
 634 2011-04-12 08:28:57 <Diablo-D3> someone needs to learn about BGP.
 635 2011-04-12 08:30:54 <lfm> elcome to BGP
 636 2011-04-12 08:30:54 <lfm> Acquisition and processing of shallow water and transition zone seismic surveys.
 637 2011-04-12 08:30:57 <lfm> www.bgp.com.cn/
 638 2011-04-12 08:32:18 stitekili has joined
 639 2011-04-12 08:33:06 <lfm> Borders Group, Inc.: NYSE:BGP quotes & news - Google Finance
 640 2011-04-12 08:33:08 <lfm> Get detailed financial information on Borders Group, Inc. (NYSE:BGP) including real-time stock quotes, historical charts & financial news, all for free!
 641 2011-04-12 08:33:54 <Diablo-D3> =|
 642 2011-04-12 08:34:07 <Diablo-D3> border gateway protocol
 643 2011-04-12 08:34:20 <lfm> I wonder how many other wrong results google can find :-)
 644 2011-04-12 08:36:14 tenach has joined
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 647 2011-04-12 08:44:30 * BurtyB hugs his BGP routaz :)
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 650 2011-04-12 09:01:19 <topi`> Diablo-D3: there used to be these router daemons when I studied the internet
 651 2011-04-12 09:01:24 <topi`> was 20 years ago
 652 2011-04-12 09:01:50 <Diablo-D3> =|
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 656 2011-04-12 09:11:19 <lfm> a name so good he named it 3 times
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 658 2011-04-12 09:13:40 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 5500 0.5
 659 2011-04-12 09:13:40 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 5500 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.5, is 6 minutes and 30 seconds
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 665 2011-04-12 09:34:04 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 90000 0.5
 666 2011-04-12 09:34:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 90000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 0.5, is 23 seconds
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 669 2011-04-12 09:39:09 <slush> DoomDumas: here?
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 674 2011-04-12 10:42:36 <eps2> ;bc,stats
 675 2011-04-12 10:42:39 <eps2> ;;bc,stats
 676 2011-04-12 10:42:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 117967 | Current Difficulty: 82347.22294654 | Next Difficulty At Block: 118943 | Next Difficulty In: 976 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 2 hours, 56 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 90098.42371352
 677 2011-04-12 10:43:04 <eps2> oh so the difficulty is expected to go up again :(
 678 2011-04-12 10:43:18 <lfm> record highs
 679 2011-04-12 10:43:18 <mtrlt> of course :)
 680 2011-04-12 10:43:25 <eps2> i suppose technically that is good for bitcoin
 681 2011-04-12 10:43:50 <lfm> it would seem to mean there are more miners than ever
 682 2011-04-12 10:44:32 <sacarlson> I'm getting this error in compile of bitcoind in ubuntu 10.04 headers.h:43:20: error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
 683 2011-04-12 10:44:57 <eps2> oh and the value has gone up to
 684 2011-04-12 10:44:58 <lfm> sacarlson: read build-unix.txt
 685 2011-04-12 10:45:02 <eps2> back to dollar parity
 686 2011-04-12 10:45:11 <mtrlt> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin-10k.png well if you look at this, there was more Ghash/sec during the spike in march
 687 2011-04-12 10:45:21 <sacarlson> lfm: ok will do
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 689 2011-04-12 10:46:05 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
 690 2011-04-12 10:46:06 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8926,"low":0.7504,"vol":36776,"buy":0.8261,"sell":0.8499,"last":0.84}}
 691 2011-04-12 10:46:16 <lfm> still just 84 cents
 692 2011-04-12 10:46:18 <sipa> that spike is assumed to have been caused by one single person
 693 2011-04-12 10:46:22 <eps2> oh sorry my ticker was wrong
 694 2011-04-12 10:46:50 <eps2> just waiting for bitcoin to hit $10 per btc
 695 2011-04-12 10:46:55 <eps2> then i am cashing out :)
 696 2011-04-12 10:47:03 <lfm> eps2: dont hold your breath
 697 2011-04-12 10:47:16 <mtrlt> yeah, it's unhealthy
 698 2011-04-12 10:47:36 <eps2> i'll hold my cock instead
 699 2011-04-12 10:47:45 <eps2> thats healthy right?
 700 2011-04-12 10:47:45 <lfm> unless you're underwater, then it is a good idea
 701 2011-04-12 10:48:00 <sacarlson> I just read the on that says I need to add ../dist/configure --enable-cxx  to Berkeley DB 4.7 compile, I used the sudo apt-get install libdb4.7++-dev package install that I guess doesn't work
 702 2011-04-12 10:48:42 <lfm> sacarlson: huh?
 703 2011-04-12 10:49:00 <sacarlson> I'm building the git version
 704 2011-04-12 10:49:25 <lfm> what didnt work?
 705 2011-04-12 10:49:42 <joepie91> mmmm
 706 2011-04-12 10:49:42 <sacarlson> lfm: the compile fails
 707 2011-04-12 10:49:44 <joepie91> guise
 708 2011-04-12 10:49:45 <joepie91> http://www.andlabs.org/tools/ravan/ravan.html
 709 2011-04-12 10:49:50 <joepie91> also does sha256
 710 2011-04-12 10:49:54 <lfm> the install was ok tho?
 711 2011-04-12 10:50:19 <sacarlson> lfm: oh yes the sudo installs all worked
 712 2011-04-12 10:50:26 <joepie91> webworker-based browser cracking of sha256 + high traffic site + bitcoin pool = instant revenue
 713 2011-04-12 10:50:33 <lfm> ok then rerun the configure
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 715 2011-04-12 10:50:48 <sipa> joepie91: any idea how many sha256 hashes a browser can do?
 716 2011-04-12 10:50:52 <Spenvo> guys, anybody care to comment on the front of hacker news?
 717 2011-04-12 10:51:04 <joepie91> idk
 718 2011-04-12 10:51:04 <lfm> no
 719 2011-04-12 10:51:07 <joepie91> might be worth to run a test
 720 2011-04-12 10:51:10 <sacarlson> lfm: the configure on bitcoind ?  I didn't see any instructions to run that
 721 2011-04-12 10:51:22 <joepie91> if you have a really high traffic site I think there's a good possibility to earn some free bitcoin power with this
 722 2011-04-12 10:51:26 <lfm> oh ya make bitcoind
 723 2011-04-12 10:51:35 <joepie91> even if only a part of your visitors uses something that supports webworkers
 724 2011-04-12 10:51:38 <sacarlson> I compiled with the line make -f makefile.unix bitcoind
 725 2011-04-12 10:51:50 <sipa> joepie91: i don't expect more than 100k/s :)
 726 2011-04-12 10:51:59 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 100
 727 2011-04-12 10:52:00 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 100 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 112 years, 7 weeks, 6 days, 0 hours, 38 minutes, and 14 seconds
 728 2011-04-12 10:52:06 <lfm> and it still didnt work? try the release version 0.3.20.2
 729 2011-04-12 10:52:12 <joepie91> yes, but say you combine a ton of visitors
 730 2011-04-12 10:52:13 <joepie91> every day
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 732 2011-04-12 10:52:23 <joepie91> then that might get very interesting :)
 733 2011-04-12 10:52:23 <sipa> ok, let's say 100000 people
 734 2011-04-12 10:52:31 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 10000000
 735 2011-04-12 10:52:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 9 hours, 49 minutes, and 27 seconds
 736 2011-04-12 10:52:41 <joepie91> err
 737 2011-04-12 10:52:44 <lfm> joepie91: it would still be basiclly cpu mining and cpus suck for bitcoin
 738 2011-04-12 10:52:56 <joepie91> lfm: yes, but that does not mean they don't mine.
 739 2011-04-12 10:53:00 <joepie91> and if your cpu power is free
 740 2011-04-12 10:53:03 <sipa> joepie91: that's still only a few dedicated boxes with a few 5970's in them
 741 2011-04-12 10:53:06 <joepie91> then there isn't really anything to lose
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 745 2011-04-12 10:53:21 <joepie91> it could be pretty much a plug and play solution for websites
 746 2011-04-12 10:53:25 <joepie91> insert a bit of javascript code
 747 2011-04-12 10:53:32 <joepie91> use some simple backend to communicate with a bitcoind
 748 2011-04-12 10:53:55 <lfm> joepie91: and your server is free too?
 749 2011-04-12 10:53:58 <joepie91> and every visitor that uses chrome etc will contribute a bit to your mining
 750 2011-04-12 10:54:04 <joepie91> no, but if you already run a website
 751 2011-04-12 10:54:07 <joepie91> those costs are there anyway
 752 2011-04-12 10:54:18 <joepie91> it could however help to *cover* the costs
 753 2011-04-12 10:54:28 <joepie91> without advertisements
 754 2011-04-12 10:54:34 <lfm> or just add to your server costs
 755 2011-04-12 10:54:40 <joepie91> how?
 756 2011-04-12 10:54:47 <sacarlson> opps I just checked and seems the libdb4.7++-dev package didn't install and is now installing so my mistake sorry
 757 2011-04-12 10:54:47 <lfm> development time
 758 2011-04-12 10:54:56 <joepie91> development would be easy
 759 2011-04-12 10:55:03 <joepie91> and my development time is technically free
 760 2011-04-12 10:55:03 <joepie91> :P
 761 2011-04-12 10:55:06 <lfm> sacarlson: ah! ok good luck
 762 2011-04-12 10:55:24 <lfm> joepie91: ok then go for it
 763 2011-04-12 10:55:29 <BurtyB> website visitors won't be very happy if they go to a site and find their computer crawls
 764 2011-04-12 10:55:47 <joepie91> BurtyB: afaik a webworker can't max out your CPU
 765 2011-04-12 10:55:54 <joepie91> not sure though
 766 2011-04-12 10:56:01 <lfm> sure it couild
 767 2011-04-12 10:56:03 <joepie91> but it would make sense if they couldnt
 768 2011-04-12 10:56:23 <lfm> might not be able to max out a dual core
 769 2011-04-12 10:56:29 <sipa> it can, but it's terribly inefficient for that kind of calculation
 770 2011-04-12 10:56:49 <sipa> so, even if it runs at 100% cpu usage, it will only do a fraction of what a native miner on the same cpu would do
 771 2011-04-12 10:57:02 <BurtyB> joepie91 maxing out on javascript will most likely cripple the browser from doing anything else
 772 2011-04-12 10:57:10 <lfm> and a cpu is a fraction of what a gpu does
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 774 2011-04-12 10:57:21 <joepie91> when I look at ravan it doesn't max out the CPU
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 778 2011-04-12 10:57:36 <joepie91> uses 1 core here I guess, hits 25% (windows box)
 779 2011-04-12 10:57:39 <Spenvo> guys, gavin andresen's interview is n0 8 on hacker news:  http://www.bitcoinbulletin.com/2011/04/09/bowling-for-bitcoins-meet-the-trader-05/
 780 2011-04-12 10:57:39 <lfm> joepie91: raven?
 781 2011-04-12 10:57:48 <joepie91> example cracker: http://www.andlabs.org/tools/ravan/worker.php?hash_id=1422
 782 2011-04-12 10:57:56 <joepie91> explanation: http://www.andlabs.org/tools/ravan/ravan.html
 783 2011-04-12 10:58:34 <sipa> joepie91: and how many hashes does it do?
 784 2011-04-12 10:58:43 <joepie91> it doesn't give a count of that sadly
 785 2011-04-12 10:58:48 <joepie91> that's what I've been looking for
 786 2011-04-12 10:59:13 <lfm> ya looks like a bitcoin miner would be easy based on raven
 787 2011-04-12 10:59:16 <joepie91> wait
 788 2011-04-12 10:59:23 <joepie91> now it does
 789 2011-04-12 10:59:24 <joepie91> >.<
 790 2011-04-12 10:59:31 <joepie91> but idk the algo
 791 2011-04-12 10:59:41 <joepie91> 122204 hashes/second
 792 2011-04-12 11:00:03 <lfm> ya thats maybe P2 speed
 793 2011-04-12 11:00:14 <topi`> ok, even my 500mhz ARM core is faster ;)
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 795 2011-04-12 11:00:26 <sipa> tahat corresponds to 65175 bitcoin hashes/s
 796 2011-04-12 11:00:33 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 65
 797 2011-04-12 11:00:34 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 65 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 0.00079394109963 BTC per day and 3.30808791512e-05 BTC per hour.
 798 2011-04-12 11:01:14 <lfm> ya so 100 days of cpu time will get you 7 cents
 799 2011-04-12 11:01:26 <lfm> or 8 cents maybe
 800 2011-04-12 11:01:30 <BurtyB> heh aka worthless
 801 2011-04-12 11:02:09 <sipa> it's 1/10000 of a good gpu
 802 2011-04-12 11:02:16 <lfm> well if you trick 1000 users into running it for 1 day each you could get 70 cents
 803 2011-04-12 11:02:34 <krytzz> use activex instead lol
 804 2011-04-12 11:02:46 <krytzz> and have native performance on windows
 805 2011-04-12 11:02:58 <sipa> does that even exist still?
 806 2011-04-12 11:03:01 <joepie91> > implying activex runs in anything other than IE
 807 2011-04-12 11:03:11 <lfm> doesnt exist for me, I run linux
 808 2011-04-12 11:04:47 <topi`> I have the slowest nvidia in the universe which runs OpenCL and I get 2100 khash/sec :)
 809 2011-04-12 11:05:01 <mtrlt> even my CPU gets more ;-)
 810 2011-04-12 11:05:04 <topi`> this is with 16 cores
 811 2011-04-12 11:05:12 <BurtyB> heh :)
 812 2011-04-12 11:05:27 <lfm> topi`: I have an nvidia that only does 1500 khashés
 813 2011-04-12 11:05:35 <topi`> well, the nvidia chip consumes 6 watts of power, so it's pretty efficient
 814 2011-04-12 11:05:47 <krytzz> i cant wait for opencl support in open source radeon
 815 2011-04-12 11:05:51 <lfm> ya no fan saves you another 5 watts
 816 2011-04-12 11:05:56 <topi`> also north bridge and ram controller integrated into that chip
 817 2011-04-12 11:06:13 <lfm> mine is on a pcie card
 818 2011-04-12 11:06:38 <topi`> krytzz: ever since AMD went out to buy ATI and they at least have had a policy to disclose everything for open source use, I've been waiting for PROPER open source ati drivers
 819 2011-04-12 11:07:01 <lfm> dont hold your breath
 820 2011-04-12 11:07:20 <krytzz> topi`: that too, but especially opencl for mining hehe
 821 2011-04-12 11:07:39 <lfm> they still keep stuff secret for competitavte reasons
 822 2011-04-12 11:08:08 <krytzz> yeah
 823 2011-04-12 11:08:50 <lfm> like they promise they will release everything SOMEDAY, but by then it will be 4 generations old
 824 2011-04-12 11:09:24 <krytzz> yes it made some progress still
 825 2011-04-12 11:09:43 <krytzz> and mesa is pretty active, i follow git
 826 2011-04-12 11:13:51 <joepie91> cleverbot vs. omegle: http://pastebin.com/m5VSniXP (I know it's a bit offtopic, but just too funny :3)
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 835 2011-04-12 11:38:52 <thermal> are the transaction confirmations throttled by IP address or the nature of and processing time required to mathematically confirm one?
 836 2011-04-12 11:39:31 <sipa> a confirmation is simply a block after it in the chain
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 838 2011-04-12 11:39:43 <sipa> each block in the chain implicitly acknowledges all transactions before it
 839 2011-04-12 11:39:54 <sipa> and blocks are created approximately at a rate of 1 per 10 minutes
 840 2011-04-12 11:40:08 <lfm> thermal: there is a complex priority calculations
 841 2011-04-12 11:41:14 <lfm> thermal: ip addresses are not available to the calculation tho. ip addresses are not propogated on bitcoin transactions
 842 2011-04-12 11:41:43 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 843 2011-04-12 11:42:26 <thermal> what prevents someone from 'locking in' a transaction by creating many subsequent transactions themselves?
 844 2011-04-12 11:42:29 <topi`> thermal: a new block has to be created in order to confirm a transaction.
 845 2011-04-12 11:43:14 <krytzz> what do you mean with locking in
 846 2011-04-12 11:43:24 <sipa> i don't see how many subsequent transactions would affect a given transaction
 847 2011-04-12 11:43:39 lfm has quit (Quit: brb)
 848 2011-04-12 11:43:46 <sipa> transactions are created by users of the system, blocks by miners
 849 2011-04-12 11:44:17 lfm has joined
 850 2011-04-12 11:44:47 <lfm> makeing lots of subsequent txn would not "lock in" anything, it would just be another txn
 851 2011-04-12 11:45:28 <lfm> if the first one is bad, then all the dependant txn would be bad too and would not go thru
 852 2011-04-12 11:45:52 <lfm> thats just normal txn processing
 853 2011-04-12 11:47:07 sgornick has joined
 854 2011-04-12 11:47:18 <thermal> what i'm trying to get at is what is stopping someone from competing with a duplicate transaction chain using their own nodes
 855 2011-04-12 11:48:10 <sipa> there is no transaction chain, only a block chain
 856 2011-04-12 11:48:12 <lfm> thermal well if they have more than 50 percent of the mining power then they could do that
 857 2011-04-12 11:48:37 <lfm> if they are smaller then the rest of the net will ignore them
 858 2011-04-12 11:48:38 <sipa> transactions are independent pieces of information, they get their meaning by being placed in a block by a miner
 859 2011-04-12 11:48:42 funkenstein has joined
 860 2011-04-12 11:48:52 <sipa> and creating a block is a lot of work
 861 2011-04-12 11:49:14 <thermal> ok i see, so the mathematical computation is the limiting factor
 862 2011-04-12 11:49:19 <sipa> exactly
 863 2011-04-12 11:49:19 <thermal> the throttle
 864 2011-04-12 11:49:26 <sipa> it's not a throttle
 865 2011-04-12 11:49:33 <lfm> the sha256 algorithm ya
 866 2011-04-12 11:49:38 <sipa> one block can contain many transactions
 867 2011-04-12 11:50:03 <sipa> but to create a "fake" block chain, you need to (re)do at least as much work as was put in the real chain
 868 2011-04-12 11:50:04 <thermal> and timestamps are used with a margin of error window to verify each new block?
 869 2011-04-12 11:50:26 <sipa> there are some limits on the timestamps of blocks, yes
 870 2011-04-12 11:50:29 grondilu has joined
 871 2011-04-12 11:51:04 <lfm> thermal: the timestamps are only used for calculating new difficulty setting every 2 weeks really
 872 2011-04-12 11:51:14 <thermal> what i'm working up to is this: is it possible to precompute a large number of new blocks to support a bad transaction you intend to make
 873 2011-04-12 11:51:31 <sipa> no
 874 2011-04-12 11:51:45 <lfm> thermal: if you can do it faster then the rest of the net combined, then ya
 875 2011-04-12 11:51:45 <thermal> why not?
 876 2011-04-12 11:51:46 <sipa> since the blocks will depend on the hash of that transaction
 877 2011-04-12 11:51:54 <sipa> so you need to know the transaction first
 878 2011-04-12 11:52:20 <thermal> since you're the one creating the transaction, wouldn't you know it before hand?
 879 2011-04-12 11:52:33 <lfm> thermal: they have to be sequential tho, each block contains the hash of the previous block
 880 2011-04-12 11:53:14 <lfm> you cant start calculating a new block till you have the previous one
 881 2011-04-12 11:54:57 <thermal> so then you create 100 blocks sequentially of random transaction amounts using nodes that you control with predetermined future timestamps and then release them in a coordinated fashion
 882 2011-04-12 11:55:18 <sipa> that's possible
 883 2011-04-12 11:55:31 <sipa> *if* you have more than 50% of the mining power of the network
 884 2011-04-12 11:55:36 <lfm> thermal: but if your slower than the rest of the net combined they will have more blocks in the main chain than you could create
 885 2011-04-12 11:55:44 <sipa> otherwise, the rest will already have more blocks than you, and ignore yours
 886 2011-04-12 11:55:54 <thermal> i don't understand why you keep mentioning the slower part
 887 2011-04-12 11:56:04 <thermal> these are precalculated
 888 2011-04-12 11:56:10 <thermal> so there is no processing required
 889 2011-04-12 11:56:20 <thermal> they are ready to go
 890 2011-04-12 11:56:33 <mtrlt> every block depends on the previous block
 891 2011-04-12 11:56:39 <lfm> thermal ya but you cant start block 100 till you have 99, you have to start at a common point with the main net
 892 2011-04-12 11:56:47 <eps2> you would need to caulculate them really quickly
 893 2011-04-12 11:57:11 <thermal> ah so the recipient has input during a transaction?
 894 2011-04-12 11:57:21 <sipa> transactions are NOT blocks
 895 2011-04-12 11:57:25 <lfm> while you are calculating your blocks the main net is not standing still
 896 2011-04-12 11:57:32 <sipa> transactions are placed into blocks
 897 2011-04-12 11:57:46 <sipa> and each block refer to the previous block
 898 2011-04-12 11:58:01 <sipa> thermal: ok we're now at block 10000, and you start precalculating your blocks, numbered 10001-10010 let's say
 899 2011-04-12 11:58:12 <sipa> your number 10001 depends on the "real" block 10000
 900 2011-04-12 11:58:17 <sipa> and 10002 on your 10001
 901 2011-04-12 11:58:19 <thermal> ok, when a transaction occurs, what block chain is used to place the block into?
 902 2011-04-12 11:58:23 <sipa> none
 903 2011-04-12 11:58:38 <sipa> a transaction is simply broadcast on the network
 904 2011-04-12 11:58:39 <lfm> thermal: generally a txn will go into the "current" block
 905 2011-04-12 11:58:39 <thermal> i just feel foolish now, i'll read the rest of the spec
 906 2011-04-12 11:58:46 <sipa> until a miner picks it up to place it in a block
 907 2011-04-12 11:59:16 <sipa> meanwhile, the real network also continues mining, and creates also blocks 10001, 10002, ...
 908 2011-04-12 11:59:30 <lfm> thermal:  it takes a while to get comfortable thinking about it all
 909 2011-04-12 11:59:33 <sipa> if you have less than 50% of the mining power
 910 2011-04-12 11:59:39 <sipa> they will have more blocks than you
 911 2011-04-12 11:59:42 <sipa> and simply ignore yours
 912 2011-04-12 12:00:59 <thermal> when a miner places it into their blockchain (is that right?) they then notify other miners of the new addition?
 913 2011-04-12 12:01:08 Corey__ has joined
 914 2011-04-12 12:01:27 <lfm> thermal: a txn could be in both branches of block chains
 915 2011-04-12 12:02:20 <thermal> i'll get to the crux: since bandwidth is needed by team A (let's say they represent 50%) to compete with team B as well as processing power
 916 2011-04-12 12:02:35 Corey__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 917 2011-04-12 12:02:40 <thermal> to make others aware of the work they've done
 918 2011-04-12 12:02:52 <lfm> naw bandwidth is not the limiting factor, processing power is
 919 2011-04-12 12:03:15 <thermal> but surely they need to contact others for it to be taken into consideration?
 920 2011-04-12 12:03:15 Corey__ has joined
 921 2011-04-12 12:03:16 <lfm> you could probably run bitcoin on a 56kbaud modem
 922 2011-04-12 12:03:24 taco_the_paco has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 923 2011-04-12 12:03:49 <thermal> is it possible to know which IP addresses are competing against you and coordinate a denial of service attack against them?
 924 2011-04-12 12:04:07 <lfm> thermal: maybe, maybe not
 925 2011-04-12 12:04:12 <thermal> btw i really want bitcoin to succeed, just also wanting it to be water tight ;)
 926 2011-04-12 12:04:39 <lfm> bitcoin is not foolproof, fools are too smart
 927 2011-04-12 12:05:01 <thermal> it needs to be foolproof if it's going to work
 928 2011-04-12 12:05:37 <lfm> naw, just has to be flexible and recat well to whatever happens. theres lots of people ready to react
 929 2011-04-12 12:06:00 <lfm> recat -> react
 930 2011-04-12 12:06:09 <thermal> ok well that's reassuring :)
 931 2011-04-12 12:06:49 <eps2> i'm rectting right now
 932 2011-04-12 12:07:02 <lfm> wtg
 933 2011-04-12 12:07:04 <thermal> and lastly (for now :D) what happens when BTCs are permanently lost?
 934 2011-04-12 12:07:18 <lfm> then they're lost
 935 2011-04-12 12:07:28 <mtrlt> nothing happens
 936 2011-04-12 12:07:36 <lfm> just don't do that
 937 2011-04-12 12:07:54 <thermal> i suppose there will be enough available units for it to never be an issue
 938 2011-04-12 12:08:08 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
 939 2011-04-12 12:08:09 <gribble> 117977
 940 2011-04-12 12:08:25 agricocb has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 941 2011-04-12 12:08:28 <thermal> so that's how many active block chains exist?
 942 2011-04-12 12:08:42 <lfm> 117977 "units" already to start with and they can be split up lots of ways
 943 2011-04-12 12:08:43 <mtrlt> no, that's how many block there are in the chain
 944 2011-04-12 12:08:50 <mtrlt> blocks
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 946 2011-04-12 12:09:48 <thermal> an idea i had to speed up the adoption (may or may not work)
 947 2011-04-12 12:10:11 <thermal> is to create a non-profit NGO to handle the distribution of the currency
 948 2011-04-12 12:10:51 <thermal> exchanging traditional currency with BTCs
 949 2011-04-12 12:10:57 <lfm> thermal: bitcoin is better than that it has NO central authority for distributing the initial currency
 950 2011-04-12 12:11:10 <thermal> this would only be temporary, a bootstrap if you will
 951 2011-04-12 12:11:26 <thermal> using a limited pool of precalculated BTCs
 952 2011-04-12 12:11:33 <lfm> thermal: nope, it is permenantly imbedded in the design
 953 2011-04-12 12:11:55 <thermal> my idea would be temporary i mean
 954 2011-04-12 12:11:58 <lfm> every 10 minutes the net issues another 50 btc
 955 2011-04-12 12:12:22 Speeder has joined
 956 2011-04-12 12:12:29 <mtrlt> the idea of bitcoin is that there is no centralized entity that distributes anything
 957 2011-04-12 12:12:40 <krytzz> isnt possible but you sure can setup a NGO and people can donate btc if the NGO is trustworthy
 958 2011-04-12 12:12:41 <thermal> i suppose the reason for my idea was so that there was a reliable and safe way to exchange BTCs into traditional currency and vice-versa
 959 2011-04-12 12:13:05 <lfm> thermal: you mean like the btc faucet?
 960 2011-04-12 12:13:05 <thermal> i suppose that's one way
 961 2011-04-12 12:13:10 <thermal> yes
 962 2011-04-12 12:13:22 <thermal> but also in reverse
 963 2011-04-12 12:13:53 <krytzz> in reverse?
 964 2011-04-12 12:14:11 <thermal> BTCs to tradtional currency and traditional currency to BTCs
 965 2011-04-12 12:14:15 witten has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 966 2011-04-12 12:14:35 <lfm> well ya, itd be just like any charity then, it would only have as much as people give it
 967 2011-04-12 12:14:43 <thermal> imo that is the most limiting factor for adoption
 968 2011-04-12 12:15:05 cdecker has joined
 969 2011-04-12 12:15:53 agricocb has joined
 970 2011-04-12 12:15:56 <thermal> it's probably better to take it slowly though
 971 2011-04-12 12:16:15 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 972 2011-04-12 12:16:18 <lfm> like the eff has a bitcoin donate button
 973 2011-04-12 12:16:33 <topi`> I think the biggest factor limiting adoption amongst the "normal" folks is when they realize that there are teenagers running their GPUs 24/7 to generate more coins, i.e. get money for nothing ;)
 974 2011-04-12 12:16:55 <thermal> haha :)
 975 2011-04-12 12:17:03 <lfm> topi`: well thats good if you want to sell stuff to teenagers
 976 2011-04-12 12:17:12 <topi`> well, I tried to explain bitcoin to suits.
 977 2011-04-12 12:17:28 <thermal> sounds like someone should start up a business that makes BPUs
 978 2011-04-12 12:17:33 <topi`> the really confusing part is how money gets created
 979 2011-04-12 12:17:37 <sipa> topi`: that is NOT the purpose of bitcoin
 980 2011-04-12 12:17:40 <thermal> (Bitcoin processing units)
 981 2011-04-12 12:17:41 <lfm> BPUs?
 982 2011-04-12 12:17:41 <krytzz> no, biggest factor for ordinary people is that you have nothing in your hand and fully rely on computers
 983 2011-04-12 12:17:46 <lfm> oh
 984 2011-04-12 12:17:50 <thermal> hehe :)
 985 2011-04-12 12:18:08 <krytzz> many even cant use online banking
 986 2011-04-12 12:18:32 <Kiba> nothing?
 987 2011-04-12 12:18:35 <lfm> krytzz: people have been doing electronic banking and credit cards and even cheques for ages without anything "concrete" in their hands
 988 2011-04-12 12:19:02 <thermal> agreed, i don't think that will be an issue krytzz
 989 2011-04-12 12:19:12 <thermal> i was thinking about starting bitcoin's first bank
 990 2011-04-12 12:19:20 witten has joined
 991 2011-04-12 12:19:20 <krytzz> lfm: ok, maybe you live in the usa, in germany here many old people are afraid of computers
 992 2011-04-12 12:19:29 <lfm> krytzz: ya well if they cant figure out regular electronic banking then theyd be hopless for bitcoin
 993 2011-04-12 12:19:52 <thermal> a bitcoin debit card sure would be great
 994 2011-04-12 12:20:36 <thermal> krytzz: being old they won't be around that much longer anyway :D
 995 2011-04-12 12:20:37 <lfm> thermal: if you can run a browser on your phone you can use bitcoins thru services such as mybitcoin.com and mtgox.com
 996 2011-04-12 12:21:13 <thermal> i placed an order with mtgox a couple of days ago
 997 2011-04-12 12:21:15 <lfm> thermal: ya, we can look forward to that eh?
 998 2011-04-12 12:21:27 eao has joined
 999 2011-04-12 12:21:31 <thermal> still haven't received the BTCs. it should be almost instant
1000 2011-04-12 12:21:43 <thermal> it's a possibility
1001 2011-04-12 12:21:49 <lfm> thermal: well kinda depends what price you asked for
1002 2011-04-12 12:21:57 <krytzz> thermal: if you dont have all blocks yet it takes some time to bootstrap
1003 2011-04-12 12:22:11 <thermal> ah ok perhaps that's why
1004 2011-04-12 12:22:21 <lfm> krytzz: doesnt take any time hardly to start using mybitcoin.com
1005 2011-04-12 12:22:32 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1006 2011-04-12 12:22:49 <krytzz> lfm: no i mean if he uses the client and doesnt have the 118000 blocks yet he wont see the TX
1007 2011-04-12 12:23:04 <thermal> suggestion: installer downloads via HTTP a recent (to the hour) tar.gzip of all blocks
1008 2011-04-12 12:23:28 <lfm> thermal: I expect he didnt offer enuf to get a contract
1009 2011-04-12 12:23:35 <thermal> only $5 USD
1010 2011-04-12 12:23:46 EvanR has joined
1011 2011-04-12 12:24:06 <thermal> that's not the point though, the amount shouldn't matter
1012 2011-04-12 12:24:49 <lfm> thermal: no he made a bid on mtgox, the price he offers does make a difference if he will get any btc or not
1013 2011-04-12 12:25:13 agricocb has joined
1014 2011-04-12 12:25:26 <thermal> i see
1015 2011-04-12 12:25:45 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1016 2011-04-12 12:26:16 <lfm> thermal: its a market, you have to see what the prices are and offer enuf that someone will sell to you
1017 2011-04-12 12:26:48 <thermal> then perhaps i could link the bank up to it
1018 2011-04-12 12:26:54 <thermal> with a reserve of BTCs
1019 2011-04-12 12:27:05 <lfm> huh?
1020 2011-04-12 12:27:49 <lfm> ;;bc,mtgox
1021 2011-04-12 12:27:50 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8926,"low":0.7514,"vol":36859,"buy":0.8263,"sell":0.85,"last":0.8483}}
1022 2011-04-12 12:28:07 <lfm> do you understand those numbers?
1023 2011-04-12 12:28:09 <thermal> using the API i could link up to mtgox and using an automated system constantly offer BTCs for sale
1024 2011-04-12 12:28:14 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1025 2011-04-12 12:28:17 <thermal> yes
1026 2011-04-12 12:28:42 <lfm> thermal if you have some btc then you can offer to sell them, yes
1027 2011-04-12 12:29:06 grondilu has quit (Quit: leaving)
1028 2011-04-12 12:29:29 <thermal> the point i'm trying to make is that there needs to be atleast 1 buyer and selling to allow instant conversion between BTCs and existing currency
1029 2011-04-12 12:29:53 <thermal> regardless of the amount
1030 2011-04-12 12:29:55 <lfm> mtgox IS the automated system that will keep track of whatever offers you want to put up
1031 2011-04-12 12:30:21 <lfm> and make exchanges for matches
1032 2011-04-12 12:30:59 * Kiba ponders who's making these small trades on mtgox...bots?
1033 2011-04-12 12:31:00 <thermal> i see mtgox as the medium/middle man/aggregator
1034 2011-04-12 12:31:10 <lfm> ya that too
1035 2011-04-12 12:31:14 <OlaRune> vad fan heter de där som fäster vevstakarna runt axeln?
1036 2011-04-12 12:31:15 <Kiba> I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of traders on mtgox are bots
1037 2011-04-12 12:31:17 <thermal> there needs to be a reasonably sized reserve
1038 2011-04-12 12:31:27 <OlaRune> sorry, wrong channel
1039 2011-04-12 12:31:34 <thermal> i'll put through another buy request
1040 2011-04-12 12:31:35 <lfm> np
1041 2011-04-12 12:31:45 <thermal> Kiba: that's a good thing
1042 2011-04-12 12:31:49 <hozer> thermal: get coding.. there's at least one exchange that's open-source (britcoin?)
1043 2011-04-12 12:32:23 <thermal> i think i might, it's definitely got my interest
1044 2011-04-12 12:32:27 <lfm> mtgox has a documented api for programmed trading
1045 2011-04-12 12:32:38 agricocb has joined
1046 2011-04-12 12:32:48 EvanR has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1047 2011-04-12 12:33:20 <hozer> Kiba: are you so sure? It could just be a bunch of people who got 10BTC
1048 2011-04-12 12:33:28 <Kiba> thermal: not saying that it's a bad thing
1049 2011-04-12 12:33:41 <Kiba> hozer: coinpal still count as a trading bot in my opinion
1050 2011-04-12 12:33:45 EvanR has joined
1051 2011-04-12 12:34:02 <hozer> ah, right. yes, it definitely looks like that is going on
1052 2011-04-12 12:34:05 <Kiba> hmm..I got 26.25% of bitcoin raised
1053 2011-04-12 12:34:15 <lfm> hozer the dayly volumes some days are such that I think there must be some big players
1054 2011-04-12 12:34:42 <krytzz> Kiba: you got 2 million?
1055 2011-04-12 12:34:45 <thermal> a 'bitpal' (paypal-like) service would be great too
1056 2011-04-12 12:35:14 <hozer> thermal: yes, it would.. you got a business plan for such a thing, and a management team? ;)
1057 2011-04-12 12:35:35 <thermal> i've got myself which on some days is the equivilent :p
1058 2011-04-12 12:35:51 <thermal> no that just sounds arrogant
1059 2011-04-12 12:35:54 <hozer> HAH, well get going
1060 2011-04-12 12:35:59 <lfm> thermal: the hardest part is managing the risks of fraud and pullbacks and such
1061 2011-04-12 12:36:06 <thermal> i could definitely get something like that done though
1062 2011-04-12 12:36:14 <thermal> i agree lfm
1063 2011-04-12 12:36:18 <hozer> what jurisdiction
1064 2011-04-12 12:36:23 <thermal> i'm in australia
1065 2011-04-12 12:36:31 <krytzz> cayman islands :)
1066 2011-04-12 12:36:38 <thermal> hehe :)
1067 2011-04-12 12:36:41 <hozer> is there a .au exchange yet?
1068 2011-04-12 12:37:03 <thermal> are we talking about domains?
1069 2011-04-12 12:37:05 <lfm> krytzz: you work in a bank then? you know something about that already then
1070 2011-04-12 12:37:27 <hozer> I'm talking about an austrialian dollar denominated exchange physically hosted in australia
1071 2011-04-12 12:37:29 <thermal> ireland is another option, they have a very low corporate tax
1072 2011-04-12 12:37:54 <thermal> does australia have a stock exchange? yes
1073 2011-04-12 12:37:57 <lfm> Havnt heard of anyone doing .au yet, you could be first
1074 2011-04-12 12:38:03 <thermal> oh
1075 2011-04-12 12:38:04 <hozer> from what I can tell Mtgox is in chicago, btcex is in Germany.. I need an exchange in australia I can co-locate a server next to
1076 2011-04-12 12:38:09 <krytzz> lfm: was just joking
1077 2011-04-12 12:38:26 <lfm> krytzz: oh too bad
1078 2011-04-12 12:38:49 <lfm> krytzz: it would be nice to have an ecgange there
1079 2011-04-12 12:38:51 <thermal> well there's a demand i could fill then
1080 2011-04-12 12:39:19 <thermal> i wonder how long it takes until paypal start waving their arms about
1081 2011-04-12 12:39:22 <thermal> and causing problems
1082 2011-04-12 12:39:24 <krytzz> hozer: btcex is germany? where did you get that from?
1083 2011-04-12 12:39:28 <hozer> traceroute
1084 2011-04-12 12:39:33 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1085 2011-04-12 12:39:47 <lfm> oh there servers could be anywhere
1086 2011-04-12 12:39:47 maxlo has quit (away!~maxi@194.104.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1087 2011-04-12 12:39:58 <hozer> logically/legally btcex is in Russia
1088 2011-04-12 12:40:01 <krytzz> is probably different in every countrys law
1089 2011-04-12 12:40:03 <thermal> in fact, the longer this stays under the mainstream radar the better
1090 2011-04-12 12:40:13 Stellar has joined
1091 2011-04-12 12:40:49 <hozer> I'd argue the sooner BTC gets some 'mainstream' business transactions the better
1092 2011-04-12 12:40:57 <lfm> thermal: well stuff like the second life currency are much bigger and they are still going
1093 2011-04-12 12:41:14 <topi`> how do you guys back up your wallet? I just run rsync -r Library/Application\ Support/Bitcoin to another host.
1094 2011-04-12 12:41:15 <Kiba> hozer: MtGox is owned by a French dude in Japan
1095 2011-04-12 12:41:16 <thermal> good points
1096 2011-04-12 12:41:36 <lfm> topi`: you should probably stop bitcoin to do a backup
1097 2011-04-12 12:41:42 <krytzz> topi`: better use rsnapshot to have an older version in case you messed something up and sync a broken version
1098 2011-04-12 12:42:03 <topi`> lfm, why do you think so?
1099 2011-04-12 12:42:05 <hozer> I'm amused by all the levels of indirection that exist in current exchanges
1100 2011-04-12 12:42:09 <thermal> there's another idea (thanks to topi`): a cloud-based secure BTC storage solution
1101 2011-04-12 12:42:23 <eps2> like mybitcoin?
1102 2011-04-12 12:42:27 <lfm> topi`: unless you use the bitcoind backupwallet command
1103 2011-04-12 12:42:46 <topi`> hmm.
1104 2011-04-12 12:42:50 <hozer> this is funny watching thermal throw out ideas and hear back what's already been implemented ;)
1105 2011-04-12 12:42:52 <thermal> ah. suppose it's been done then :)
1106 2011-04-12 12:42:56 <thermal> :P
1107 2011-04-12 12:43:02 <lfm> thermal: ther was a guy offereing that! he was a fraudster tho
1108 2011-04-12 12:43:11 <thermal> oh :(
1109 2011-04-12 12:43:45 <lfm> much safer to do your own backups
1110 2011-04-12 12:43:46 <thermal> how about a reputation extension to the protocol? (optional)
1111 2011-04-12 12:43:53 <hozer> I think if you want to offer a cloud-secure BTC storage, you need to be very clear what your phyiscal location is, and what legal regime you operate under, and be transparent
1112 2011-04-12 12:44:12 <thermal> agreed
1113 2011-04-12 12:44:21 <krytzz> thermal: not easy probably, has tobe backed by crypto, otherwise its useless
1114 2011-04-12 12:45:09 <lfm> and any service like that would have to be very trustworthy since it so easily could be fraudulent
1115 2011-04-12 12:45:11 <thermal> there's a startup in san fran called SimpleBank
1116 2011-04-12 12:45:15 <hozer> I think the reputation stuff is orthoganol to BTC... , or should be anyway
1117 2011-04-12 12:45:22 <thermal> i think they'd be very interested in bitcoin
1118 2011-04-12 12:45:39 <krytzz> as cloud service you could host encrypted wallets and the encryption happens client-side
1119 2011-04-12 12:45:45 <krytzz> so fraud isnt possible
1120 2011-04-12 12:45:52 <krytzz> like wua.la or something
1121 2011-04-12 12:45:54 <thermal> they simply provide the interface between the customer and their bank (and provide a custom debit card)
1122 2011-04-12 12:46:25 <thermal> agreed, a simple symmetric key would work
1123 2011-04-12 12:46:32 <lfm> basiclly you should NOT trust your wallet to any "service" when its so simple to put a backup on a thumb drive and put the thumb drive in a safe
1124 2011-04-12 12:46:52 <topi`> exactly
1125 2011-04-12 12:47:02 <krytzz> right, or upload encrypted files on rapidshare and such
1126 2011-04-12 12:47:03 <thermal> Google Chrome recently added that same functionality for the sync'd data
1127 2011-04-12 12:47:23 <lfm> krytzz: ya to to gmail or some such
1128 2011-04-12 12:47:27 <thermal> lfm: what is simple to us is not simple to the other 99%
1129 2011-04-12 12:47:31 * hozer looks at banksimple.com
1130 2011-04-12 12:47:55 <topi`> lfm: I suggested such an addition (to back up to a Thumb drive) on the bitcoin forum but no response.
1131 2011-04-12 12:48:06 <thermal> that's a good idea
1132 2011-04-12 12:48:08 <topi`> I mean, the UI has to make it simple to do such backups
1133 2011-04-12 12:48:13 <lfm> thermal: well I guess the other 99% are gonna have to learn, sort like they have to learn about viruses
1134 2011-04-12 12:48:19 <topi`> or even, the UI would refuse to work when the Thumb drive is not attached.
1135 2011-04-12 12:49:01 <topi`> the "normal" ppl find it much easier to grasp a concept when it has physical parts involved .. like a USB drive :)
1136 2011-04-12 12:49:06 <lfm> topi`: it would be easy to have the wallet reside on a thumb drive ya
1137 2011-04-12 12:49:30 <topi`> you just write "BITCOIN WALLET" in big, blocky letters on top of that USB thumb drive, and even the grandma can use it.
1138 2011-04-12 12:49:33 <thermal> yeah the thumb drive idea is good
1139 2011-04-12 12:49:37 <thermal> and the cloud idea
1140 2011-04-12 12:49:41 Teslah has joined
1141 2011-04-12 12:49:51 <lfm> the cloud idea sucks I think
1142 2011-04-12 12:50:05 <topi`> lfm: there could be a "first-use wizard" that would lead the user to create/format such a USB thumb drive.
1143 2011-04-12 12:50:06 <Blitzboom> why not code it?
1144 2011-04-12 12:50:08 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a2pre)
1145 2011-04-12 12:50:10 <hozer> the cloud idea probably only works if you have a two-factor auth token
1146 2011-04-12 12:50:15 <lfm> becuase there would be more fraudsters working it than legits
1147 2011-04-12 12:50:16 <thermal> so long as you can trust the provider, i don't see an issue
1148 2011-04-12 12:50:37 skeledrew has joined
1149 2011-04-12 12:50:37 <topi`> a 1 GB thumb drive would be enough to contain all the block data and logs.
1150 2011-04-12 12:50:43 <lfm> thermal: yes that is the issue and it is not a small issue
1151 2011-04-12 12:51:06 Teslah has quit (Client Quit)
1152 2011-04-12 12:51:11 <topi`> it is *Much* simpler to trust a Thumb drive that is in *your* pocket :)
1153 2011-04-12 12:51:12 <lfm> topi`: ya you could put the whole configdir out there
1154 2011-04-12 12:51:36 <hozer> topi: what about when the drive gets destroyed ;)
1155 2011-04-12 12:51:37 <topi`> lfm: not in its entirety. I think there ought to be a configuration setting that says "wallet is in USB"
1156 2011-04-12 12:51:53 <topi`> and the USB drive needs to have a special name so that Bitcoin client recognises it
1157 2011-04-12 12:52:00 <lfm> topi you could put the exe files there too so it can run on most any computer you plug it into
1158 2011-04-12 12:52:09 <topi`> hozer: what if your wallet drops out of your pocket? you lose it.
1159 2011-04-12 12:52:12 <thermal> how about this approach: a combination of a symmetric key and two-factor auth
1160 2011-04-12 12:52:19 <hozer> portableapps.com
1161 2011-04-12 12:52:30 <topi`> lfm: well... *if* you trust that computer ;)
1162 2011-04-12 12:52:37 <lfm> ya
1163 2011-04-12 12:52:39 <topi`> lfm: I would opt for a full-blown linux install on the USB :)
1164 2011-04-12 12:52:39 <thermal> with iOS/Android app for the two-factor auth
1165 2011-04-12 12:52:54 <lfm> android sucks for bitcoin
1166 2011-04-12 12:53:06 <topi`> what makes android bad for bitcoin?
1167 2011-04-12 12:53:06 <thermal> that way the cloud provider can't access the real data
1168 2011-04-12 12:53:21 <lfm> iOS is worse than android
1169 2011-04-12 12:53:46 <lfm> slow, limited, stroage and expensive bandwidth
1170 2011-04-12 12:54:18 maxlo has joined
1171 2011-04-12 12:54:23 <thermal> i disagree but i really want to play sc2
1172 2011-04-12 12:54:35 <thermal> :P
1173 2011-04-12 12:54:38 <lfm> sim city?
1174 2011-04-12 12:54:44 <thermal> starcraft 2
1175 2011-04-12 12:54:52 <lfm> oh, have fun
1176 2011-04-12 12:54:57 <thermal> hehe thanks
1177 2011-04-12 12:55:00 <thermal> ttyl :)
1178 2011-04-12 12:55:06 <hozer> later
1179 2011-04-12 12:55:30 sipa has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1180 2011-04-12 12:55:36 sipa has joined
1181 2011-04-12 12:57:32 <lfm> for many "phones" you need an extranal storage unit and my hit memory limits trying to run bitcoin
1182 2011-04-12 12:58:13 <lfm> youd also wanna make sure you have an unlimited (not a psudo-unlimited) data plan
1183 2011-04-12 12:59:07 <lfm> ie, real unlimited data plans are not available in Canada
1184 2011-04-12 12:59:52 <sipa> what is pseudo-unlimited?
1185 2011-04-12 13:00:03 <sipa> (i mean, what limit does that have)
1186 2011-04-12 13:00:13 <lfm> they have limits but the marketing trys to hide the fact
1187 2011-04-12 13:00:26 sabalaba has joined
1188 2011-04-12 13:00:27 <lfm> like 5gb/month
1189 2011-04-12 13:00:44 <sipa> that should be more than enough for bitcoin, no?
1190 2011-04-12 13:01:11 <lfm> bandwidth? not for me it wouldnt be
1191 2011-04-12 13:01:52 <lfm> maybe if bitcoin was the only thing you were running
1192 2011-04-12 13:02:12 <lfm> no browsing, no youtube, no netflix ...
1193 2011-04-12 13:02:34 <sipa> i never used more than 300MiB in a month on my phone
1194 2011-04-12 13:03:36 <lfm> note bitcoin works best if it is running 24/7 in the background (so iOS is out, it has no background)
1195 2011-04-12 13:06:28 <lfm> sipa just starting up bitcoin needs to download the block chain (120Mb) then it really starts
1196 2011-04-12 13:06:50 <sipa> it doesn't need to run in the background
1197 2011-04-12 13:07:03 <sipa> it just needs to be fired up if there is relevant data to process
1198 2011-04-12 13:07:37 <sipa> running 24/7 would kill the battery
1199 2011-04-12 13:08:09 <lfm> sipa ya but if you fire it up after its been down a while it has to "catch up" to the current block anyway then which can take minutes that phone users are not patient with
1200 2011-04-12 13:09:25 <lfm> and to make a txn if you want to wait till its "confirmed" for a full 6 blocks, that takes an average of an hour and could be much more cuz it is random
1201 2011-04-12 13:10:03 <lfm> all of which are not things your typical phone user wants to do
1202 2011-04-12 13:11:51 <lfm> and thats why I try to convince people to just use mybitcoin.com, not an actual bitcoin node on the phone
1203 2011-04-12 13:12:22 <sipa> i think phones will eventually carry and manage small wallets to do payments, but not run a node
1204 2011-04-12 13:12:43 agricocb has joined
1205 2011-04-12 13:13:01 <lfm> sipa, yes, but it will work much more like mybitcoin.com then like bitcoin.exe
1206 2011-04-12 13:13:09 Furao has joined
1207 2011-04-12 13:13:16 <sipa> indeed
1208 2011-04-12 13:14:28 <lfm> also if you loose your phone you loose the wallet on the phone but mybitcoin can be accessed from any phone or pc browser, you just need the user/password
1209 2011-04-12 13:15:34 <krytzz> typical geek solution would be, wallet client on phone and node at home or on a dedicated server
1210 2011-04-12 13:15:59 <lfm> naw, you want the wallet on the home node too
1211 2011-04-12 13:16:11 <sipa> you'd have a full wallet at home
1212 2011-04-12 13:16:21 <sipa> and a small wallet on the phone you sync with the one at home
1213 2011-04-12 13:16:30 <sipa> with a limited amount of coins in it
1214 2011-04-12 13:16:57 <lfm> why bother? just contact home when you need to, you can assume the phone can always access the net
1215 2011-04-12 13:17:03 <krytzz> lfm: well you access the bitcoin daemon via api so you have your wallet everywhere
1216 2011-04-12 13:17:38 <UukGoblin> jeez, 274 unconfirmed transactions
1217 2011-04-12 13:17:43 <UukGoblin> what's wrong with them? ;-P
1218 2011-04-12 13:18:12 <lfm> krytzz: ya if you want make a fancy gui front end on the phone so "power users" are confortable but the functionality needs to be remote
1219 2011-04-12 13:18:38 <lfm> UukGoblin: spammers
1220 2011-04-12 13:18:43 <krytzz> lfm: do you have an overview about the android clients? didnt look into it yet
1221 2011-04-12 13:19:04 <lfm> krytzz: what android clients?
1222 2011-04-12 13:19:30 <krytzz> lfm: bitcoin android cients, luke-jr had a list of repos, forgot the url currently
1223 2011-04-12 13:19:55 <lfm> If you are asking me, i say USE THE BUILT IN BROWSER.
1224 2011-04-12 13:20:20 <krytzz> no, i hate web apps mostly
1225 2011-04-12 13:20:31 <lfm> sigh, then dont ask me
1226 2011-04-12 13:20:36 <krytzz> k
1227 2011-04-12 13:20:57 <krytzz> if a client that accesses the api isnt there i might make one or contribute
1228 2011-04-12 13:22:44 <lfm> you could prolly even use mybitcoin.com and accessit via http with your own front end and no one would know any betetr
1229 2011-04-12 13:23:51 <krytzz> yeah
1230 2011-04-12 13:23:56 <krytzz> but i want to run my own node
1231 2011-04-12 13:24:54 <topi`> I translated and published a translation of the english wikipedia bitcoin page in its entirety, who was it who gave 23 BTC donations for translations?
1232 2011-04-12 13:24:55 <lfm> fine, if you dont trust mybitcoin.com you can run your own or use mtgox.com accounts or probably some otehrs out there
1233 2011-04-12 13:25:10 <topi`> my nvidia is so shitty that it's much faster to earn bitcoins the "hard way"
1234 2011-04-12 13:25:40 <lfm> most nvidia are that way
1235 2011-04-12 13:26:07 <topi`> :(
1236 2011-04-12 13:26:52 <krytzz> eventually you have to earn money the "hard way" anyway :p
1237 2011-04-12 13:27:10 <lfm> we just havn't convinced nvidia to optimize their hardware for us (bitcoin) yet. they keep catering to those darned gamers!
1238 2011-04-12 13:29:11 <luke-jr> krytzz: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w?o=age
1239 2011-04-12 13:29:22 <krytzz> right
1240 2011-04-12 13:29:31 <topi`> now that I have worked on the translation of the bitcoin wikipedia page, I think that page deserves a complete rewrite.
1241 2011-04-12 13:29:44 <lfm> hehe
1242 2011-04-12 13:29:44 <krytzz> luke-jr: whats up with the bot
1243 2011-04-12 13:29:47 <topi`> it might answer the questions of the technically oriented people, but leaves "normal" ppl completely puzzled.
1244 2011-04-12 13:30:18 <lfm> it is normal people's job to be puzzled at what nerds do
1245 2011-04-12 13:30:54 <krytzz> i dont expect the majority of mankind to understand bitcoin
1246 2011-04-12 13:31:04 <krytzz> they just have to trust it :p
1247 2011-04-12 13:31:13 <Blitzboom> right
1248 2011-04-12 13:31:18 <Blitzboom> they don’t understand fiat money either
1249 2011-04-12 13:31:19 <mtrlt> majority of people don't understand fiat money
1250 2011-04-12 13:31:22 <mtrlt> yeah.
1251 2011-04-12 13:31:37 <lfm> ya, no use translating bitcoin wiki for some dirt farmer in central africa who makes 120 bucks a year
1252 2011-04-12 13:33:00 TheAncientGoat has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1253 2011-04-12 13:33:03 TheAncientGoat_ has joined
1254 2011-04-12 13:33:09 <luke-jr> krytzz: bitcoind died
1255 2011-04-12 13:33:36 <lfm> mine didnt
1256 2011-04-12 13:33:59 <eps2> thats it everybody, bitcoin is dead, everyone shut down your miners
1257 2011-04-12 13:35:35 <lfm> eps2: oh shucks, thats terrible!
1258 2011-04-12 13:37:09 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,estimate
1259 2011-04-12 13:37:09 <gribble> 90140.02476546
1260 2011-04-12 13:56:01 <luke-jr> <ljrbot> trade mtgox:          12.60   BTC @    0.86       USD
1261 2011-04-12 13:56:03 <luke-jr> <ljrbot> trade bc:            100.00   BTC @    0.84444    LRUSD (pending since Apr12 09:01:49)
1262 2011-04-12 13:56:04 <luke-jr> how's that look
1263 2011-04-12 13:57:12 <lfm> those are like pending bids or a log of txn?
1264 2011-04-12 13:57:21 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1265 2011-04-12 13:57:26 <luke-jr> lfm: confirmed trades
1266 2011-04-12 13:57:46 <luke-jr> the "pending since…" is for ones that have a delay from agreement to confirmation
1267 2011-04-12 13:59:11 <luke-jr> mtgox, btcex, britcoin confirm immediately ofc
1268 2011-04-12 13:59:26 <lfm> ok i see
1269 2011-04-12 13:59:44 <luke-jr> bc and bitmarket confirm after humans manually exchange
1270 2011-04-12 14:06:58 Dark_Ghost has joined
1271 2011-04-12 14:07:42 <yebyen> woohoo, coinpal
1272 2011-04-12 14:08:03 <yebyen> does anyone have a liberty reserve store can answer a few questions?
1273 2011-04-12 14:08:43 <yebyen> i just want to know if i can use an LR account to set up a credit card acceptor
1274 2011-04-12 14:09:27 <nanotube> yebyen: trust me, you don't want to trade LR for credit cards. LR is hard, cc is soft. you'll be fraudstered to oblivion.
1275 2011-04-12 14:09:44 <nanotube> unless you go all coinpal like with low limits, and lots of fraud prevention effort
1276 2011-04-12 14:09:45 <ersi> topi`: What language did you translate the wikipage to?
1277 2011-04-12 14:10:58 <yebyen> nanotube: not really what i mean, i want to accept credit cards as payment, and i'll be putting my LR balances towards mtgox account to try and reach 800
1278 2011-04-12 14:11:11 <yebyen> for services, not for hard fiat
1279 2011-04-12 14:11:28 <nanotube> then how do you convert cc payments into LR ?
1280 2011-04-12 14:11:44 <nanotube> guess i don't really understand what you plan to do. :)
1281 2011-04-12 14:11:56 <yebyen> i though LR was a full merchant service like mtgox
1282 2011-04-12 14:12:31 <Diablo-D3> I HAVE A WONDERFUL NEW IDEA
1283 2011-04-12 14:12:40 <Diablo-D3> I AM GOING TO START A CULT THAT ACCEPTS BITCOINS
1284 2011-04-12 14:12:55 <krytzz> hah
1285 2011-04-12 14:12:57 <krytzz> BITOLOGY
1286 2011-04-12 14:13:02 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: too late. the idea of bitcoin as a religion has already been suggested (by me, on -otc, some days ago)
1287 2011-04-12 14:13:11 <Diablo-D3> nanotube: actually I had this idea 9 months ago
1288 2011-04-12 14:13:15 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1289 2011-04-12 14:13:18 <yebyen> although mtgox doesn't accept cc
1290 2011-04-12 14:13:20 <Diablo-D3> but no one was around to hear it :<
1291 2011-04-12 14:13:21 <krytzz> nanotube: not too late, nobody implemented it yet :)
1292 2011-04-12 14:13:31 <Diablo-D3> Im still wondering when the fuck bitcoin became popular
1293 2011-04-12 14:13:31 <yebyen> so i guess i'm not understanding
1294 2011-04-12 14:13:46 <sipa> "Your donation to The Lord's bitcoin address was confirmed. Your sins are absolved."
1295 2011-04-12 14:13:52 glassresistor has joined
1296 2011-04-12 14:14:15 <krytzz> sipa: no, you have to pay amount x to get to level y and be a good person
1297 2011-04-12 14:14:16 <Diablo-D3> sipa: ....
1298 2011-04-12 14:14:16 <nanotube> Diablo-D3: haha
1299 2011-04-12 14:14:19 <nanotube> krytzz: well yes...
1300 2011-04-12 14:14:23 <Diablo-D3> ....
1301 2011-04-12 14:14:31 <Diablo-D3> I should actually do that :<
1302 2011-04-12 14:14:41 <Diablo-D3> and donate large amounts of that to help struggling nations
1303 2011-04-12 14:15:28 <topi`> ersi: I translated it to Finnish, the native language of Tux ;)
1304 2011-04-12 14:15:45 <topi`> (well, actually swedish, if we talk about Linus Torvalds, but well :)
1305 2011-04-12 14:15:46 <MagicalTux> to tell you the truth I'm surprised by the amount of people using the automated SEPA system I wrote
1306 2011-04-12 14:15:55 <yebyen> nanotube: so, you can get an LR debit card, but you can't use an LR account to accept card payments? ^_^
1307 2011-04-12 14:16:33 <nanotube> yebyen: no, you can't get LR via accepting someone's credit card. LR is like a separate currency, you have to use an exchanger to go between 'regular usd' and 'lrusd'
1308 2011-04-12 14:16:33 <topi`> ersi: it's just a language spoken by only 5 million people, so not very important, but of course it's always useful to increase the amount of translations of the wiki page.
1309 2011-04-12 14:17:33 <yebyen> nanotube: but LRusd debit cards are real and can be used at regular USD stores, right?
1310 2011-04-12 14:17:40 <Speeder> MagicalTux: hey, you showedup
1311 2011-04-12 14:17:50 <MagicalTux> Speeder: it happens, sometimes
1312 2011-04-12 14:17:52 <yebyen> ahh
1313 2011-04-12 14:17:52 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  I expplained iceberg to otc people
1314 2011-04-12 14:17:55 <yebyen> they are exchangers
1315 2011-04-12 14:17:55 <Speeder> they loved it :D
1316 2011-04-12 14:18:02 <yebyen> and must be trusted, not the LR company
1317 2011-04-12 14:18:04 <yebyen> i understand now
1318 2011-04-12 14:18:05 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  you will implement it, don't you?
1319 2011-04-12 14:18:05 <MagicalTux> I tend to be busy a lot busy lately
1320 2011-04-12 14:18:23 tst_ has joined
1321 2011-04-12 14:18:25 <MagicalTux> Speeder: it will depend on the feedback from the community, I cannot take position until when I said I will (I gave myself one week)
1322 2011-04-12 14:18:34 <Speeder> Oh
1323 2011-04-12 14:18:42 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  btw, I voted wrong by accident on the pool
1324 2011-04-12 14:18:46 <MagicalTux> if I take position now, it will most likely affect the result
1325 2011-04-12 14:18:57 <Speeder> I voted "remove dark pool" instead of "iceberg"
1326 2011-04-12 14:19:14 <dinox> I think we soon have 1btc=1$
1327 2011-04-12 14:19:23 <yebyen> we had that for a while
1328 2011-04-12 14:19:30 <sipa> what is iceberg?
1329 2011-04-12 14:19:36 <dinox> then mining will be more $$$ than it already is
1330 2011-04-12 14:19:40 <nanotube> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5564.0 <-- sipa
1331 2011-04-12 14:19:44 <dinox> yebyen?
1332 2011-04-12 14:20:04 <yebyen> dinox: look at the mtgox record, it won't be the first time prices have gone over $1USD/1BTC
1333 2011-04-12 14:20:14 <krytzz> dinox: difficulty will rise and soon only 25btc per block :p
1334 2011-04-12 14:20:26 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  rather, I want complete removal of dark pool, and introduction of iceber
1335 2011-04-12 14:20:28 <Speeder> iceberg
1336 2011-04-12 14:20:46 <dinox> yebyen: ok, but it was only a peak
1337 2011-04-12 14:20:55 <yebyen> dinox: do you make a decent amount of BTC from mining?
1338 2011-04-12 14:21:01 <dinox> krytzz: when is that happening?
1339 2011-04-12 14:21:12 <yebyen> what is your system like, single machine?  many radeons?
1340 2011-04-12 14:21:13 <ersi> topi`: Heh, howdy neighbour ;)
1341 2011-04-12 14:21:19 <ersi> topi`: I'm a swede
1342 2011-04-12 14:21:23 <MagicalTux> Speeder: in fact dark pool will not have any impact on the normal market, so I'm not sure there's any reason to delete itself, you can just ignore it
1343 2011-04-12 14:21:31 <dinox> yebyen: about 10btc/day
1344 2011-04-12 14:21:40 <topi`> ersi: I also speak swedish ;)
1345 2011-04-12 14:21:44 <topi`> just like Linus
1346 2011-04-12 14:21:52 <yebyen> dinox: shit, that's enough to keep me in a house
1347 2011-04-12 14:22:20 <Speeder> MagicalTux:  dark pool make the normal market look more inactive
1348 2011-04-12 14:22:22 <dinox> the rig cost me 10000kr ~1500$ I think
1349 2011-04-12 14:22:43 <dinox> works awesome in games too
1350 2011-04-12 14:22:57 <yebyen> just one beefy video card then?
1351 2011-04-12 14:23:06 <yebyen> the nice cards i was looking at run $700
1352 2011-04-12 14:23:23 <topi`> all those very high end radeons are really expensive
1353 2011-04-12 14:23:29 <yebyen> "best for bitcoin mining" i think it was radeon HD7850
1354 2011-04-12 14:23:43 <topi`> well, any new radeon is good :)
1355 2011-04-12 14:23:52 <dinox> radeon 5970 is absolutely best i think
1356 2011-04-12 14:23:57 <yebyen> how about cortex a9 :)
1357 2011-04-12 14:24:04 <dinox> lol
1358 2011-04-12 14:24:05 <yebyen> bwaha
1359 2011-04-12 14:24:36 <yebyen> maybe good for a wallet
1360 2011-04-12 14:24:39 <krytzz> yebyen: where do you get it and for how much
1361 2011-04-12 14:24:39 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1362 2011-04-12 14:25:01 <yebyen> krytzz: it's a tablet/arm processor
1363 2011-04-12 14:25:20 <krytzz> ah omap4 is a9
1364 2011-04-12 14:25:21 <dinox> it sucks for mining
1365 2011-04-12 14:25:23 <krytzz> i thought it was a8
1366 2011-04-12 14:25:34 Stonetz has joined
1367 2011-04-12 14:25:47 <dinox> an decent fpga maybe, like ArtForz
1368 2011-04-12 14:25:47 <krytzz> its good on power use, but probably not as good as gpus per mhash/s
1369 2011-04-12 14:26:02 <dinox> 70mh at 3watts
1370 2011-04-12 14:26:35 tst_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1371 2011-04-12 14:27:09 sabalaba has joined
1372 2011-04-12 14:28:07 <krytzz> yebyen: i have a pandaboard actually, bit didnt test mining on it yet
1373 2011-04-12 14:30:44 <ersi> dinox: How much power does that rig gobble?
1374 2011-04-12 14:31:08 <dinox> i dont know... about 800w i think
1375 2011-04-12 14:31:17 <dinox> have a 900w psu
1376 2011-04-12 14:32:13 redengin has joined
1377 2011-04-12 14:32:30 <yebyen> krytzz: what do you use it for?  android?
1378 2011-04-12 14:32:49 <sipa> is it unreasonable to have no dark pools, no dark+normal, but do have iceberg?
1379 2011-04-12 14:33:23 <eps2> what is an iceberg?
1380 2011-04-12 14:33:30 <krytzz> yebyen: no, home server and tv input
1381 2011-04-12 14:34:07 <sipa> eps2: just learned about it myself - http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5564.msg83075#msg83075
1382 2011-04-12 14:37:13 <yebyen> tv input?
1383 2011-04-12 14:37:53 <yebyen> don't you mean output?
1384 2011-04-12 14:38:00 <yebyen> that reminds me, i bought an hdhomerun
1385 2011-04-12 14:38:14 <krytzz> yebyen: yeah right, for watching movies and stuff
1386 2011-04-12 14:38:55 <yebyen> aha
1387 2011-04-12 14:40:20 <krytzz> much better than the players from asus, ac ryan etc because you can use your own software
1388 2011-04-12 14:40:32 <yebyen> and it's coming today!
1389 2011-04-12 14:40:39 <yebyen> i just have to bike 10 miles to get it and get back
1390 2011-04-12 14:41:41 <krytzz> hdhomerun is probably the same
1391 2011-04-12 14:43:14 <yebyen> hdhomerun is basically two tuners that accept ClearQAM HD signals
1392 2011-04-12 14:43:23 <yebyen> you need a computer driving mythtv to make it really useful
1393 2011-04-12 14:43:23 <krytzz> ah it has no hdmi out?
1394 2011-04-12 14:43:26 <krytzz> ah ok
1395 2011-04-12 14:43:29 <yebyen> ethernet
1396 2011-04-12 14:43:39 <yebyen> $130
1397 2011-04-12 14:43:42 <krytzz> ok its a different type of device
1398 2011-04-12 14:44:09 <topi`> krytzz: I have a dual Cortex-A9 (Toshiba AC100) and compiled jgarzik's miner, it gives out 175 khash per thread
1399 2011-04-12 14:44:13 <yebyen> right
1400 2011-04-12 14:44:21 <krytzz> these players for around $100 with hdmi out you cant poke with the software, thats sad
1401 2011-04-12 14:44:22 <yebyen> tv input
1402 2011-04-12 14:44:37 <krytzz> topi`: oh no, worse than i expected :)
1403 2011-04-12 14:44:46 <topi`> the AC100 takes barely any electricity when I have shut down the backlight and the Bluetooth :)
1404 2011-04-12 14:44:56 <topi`> krytzz: the code ought to be optimized
1405 2011-04-12 14:44:56 <krytzz> yeah
1406 2011-04-12 14:45:06 <krytzz> with ~500 it could be awesome
1407 2011-04-12 14:45:22 <topi`> maybe I should sit down and write some NEON code. It has the same kind of facilities to do rotates on 128-bit vectors
1408 2011-04-12 14:45:25 <krytzz> and we could also use the powervr chip and the dsp somehow :)
1409 2011-04-12 14:45:54 <krytzz> ah right
1410 2011-04-12 14:47:03 <topi`> i'm still waiting for those 4- and 8-core ARM chips :)
1411 2011-04-12 14:48:54 <topi`> on the Toshiba, the difference between running miners on the cores and not running anything is meager, because the rest of the system consumes more power than the two ARM cores.
1412 2011-04-12 14:49:35 <topi`> in a way, the tiny coins mined on ARMs are profitable because the cost of electricity is negligible
1413 2011-04-12 14:50:01 <topi`> I can run my Tegra 250 on a very small solar cell
1414 2011-04-12 14:50:34 <krytzz> yeah, if you have the device already and its not running on battery
1415 2011-04-12 14:54:12 da2ce7 has quit ()
1416 2011-04-12 14:54:41 da2ce7 has joined
1417 2011-04-12 14:57:01 <Diablo-D3> erm
1418 2011-04-12 14:57:05 <Diablo-D3> mining on cpus is stupid
1419 2011-04-12 14:58:25 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1420 2011-04-12 14:58:34 jb55 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1421 2011-04-12 14:59:07 <krytzz> Diablo-D3: if you get 1mhash/s for 2w its ok
1422 2011-04-12 14:59:22 <Diablo-D3> no its not
1423 2011-04-12 14:59:26 <Diablo-D3> thats 0.5w efficiency
1424 2011-04-12 14:59:37 <Diablo-D3> radeon 5xxx are up around 2
1425 2011-04-12 15:00:04 jb55 has joined
1426 2011-04-12 15:00:10 <krytzz> right but if you run the device anyway
1427 2011-04-12 15:00:30 <krytzz> then you could count the additional power need for the mining (probably less than 1w)
1428 2011-04-12 15:01:04 <krytzz> its a corner case sure, you cant buy tons of arm devices
1429 2011-04-12 15:06:09 <Stonetz> also it depends if you're pooling it with something else and giving it a little bump or if it's just solo. If it's just solo and will solve a block in 2 years if you're lucky then it's not worth the efficiency
1430 2011-04-12 15:07:30 <krytzz> solo mining is always bad if you dont have a room full of gpus
1431 2011-04-12 15:08:40 redengin has quit (Quit: AndroIRC)
1432 2011-04-12 15:13:15 Poopsie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1433 2011-04-12 15:15:30 <Stonetz> might not need a room full but yeah I agree with your point
1434 2011-04-12 15:17:04 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1435 2011-04-12 15:17:21 <lfm> however if you are loosing money paying for power on something inneficient, it doesnt help to have more of them
1436 2011-04-12 15:17:43 <BurtyB> heh
1437 2011-04-12 15:19:10 <lfm> krytzz: and you can make a profit on just one gpu, not hard at all
1438 2011-04-12 15:19:22 <mtrlt> but the profit is small
1439 2011-04-12 15:19:45 <mtrlt> i calculated getting like 30-40 EUR/month with my HD5850
1440 2011-04-12 15:20:04 <lfm> not really, it can easily pay for itself in a few months
1441 2011-04-12 15:20:29 <hozer> are you actually getting Euro? through what exchange?
1442 2011-04-12 15:21:02 <mtrlt> no, i just converted BTC to EUR
1443 2011-04-12 15:21:24 <hozer> so it's not *really* euro ;)
1444 2011-04-12 15:21:27 <mtrlt> but you can send an d receive EUR in the SEPA zone from MtGox
1445 2011-04-12 15:21:28 <mtrlt> :P
1446 2011-04-12 15:21:30 <hozer> have you bought anything with BTC
1447 2011-04-12 15:21:37 <mtrlt> not yet
1448 2011-04-12 15:21:40 <mtrlt> just hoarding lots of it
1449 2011-04-12 15:21:44 <hozer> HAH
1450 2011-04-12 15:22:00 <hozer> see, this hoarding problem is going to kill bitcoin
1451 2011-04-12 15:22:14 <Diablo-D3> [10:57:19] <krytzz> right but if you run the device anyway
1452 2011-04-12 15:22:16 <hozer> currency is only worth something when it circulates
1453 2011-04-12 15:22:18 <Diablo-D3> its a fucking ARM
1454 2011-04-12 15:22:21 <Diablo-D3> its most likely portable
1455 2011-04-12 15:22:21 <mtrlt> but in some time i'm going to finally sell my game
1456 2011-04-12 15:22:23 <lfm> ya sure, its all mtrlt 's fault
1457 2011-04-12 15:22:25 <Diablo-D3> quit fucking your battery life
1458 2011-04-12 15:22:27 <mtrlt> and you can pay with bitcoins too :)
1459 2011-04-12 15:22:59 <krytzz> Diablo-D3: there are plugged arm devices, like pandaboard
1460 2011-04-12 15:23:33 <mtrlt> the current problem is that i can't eat BTC, i.e. i can't buy food with it :(
1461 2011-04-12 15:23:43 <hozer> how much sorghum do you want?
1462 2011-04-12 15:23:46 <Diablo-D3> mtrlt: actually you can
1463 2011-04-12 15:23:53 <Diablo-D3> someone bought a pizza with btc once
1464 2011-04-12 15:23:57 <mtrlt> Diablo-D3: :D
1465 2011-04-12 15:24:01 <mtrlt> awesome
1466 2011-04-12 15:24:03 <Diablo-D3> with whats now worth like $80k USD
1467 2011-04-12 15:24:08 <mtrlt> lol
1468 2011-04-12 15:24:10 * hozer has whole-grain sorghum for sale.. not sure how much I should charge for it
1469 2011-04-12 15:24:12 <Diablo-D3> most expensive pizza ever
1470 2011-04-12 15:24:18 <mtrlt> haha
1471 2011-04-12 15:24:30 <hozer> I'd rather have the pizza
1472 2011-04-12 15:24:45 <hozer> cause then I'd be able to say I ate an $80,000 pizza
1473 2011-04-12 15:25:34 <hozer> I guess I should just put the sorghum on the marketplace forum
1474 2011-04-12 15:25:49 <lfm> Im sure someone could arrange it for ya. Theyd just need a phone number of some pizza joint in your town and buy the pizza on a credit card when you send them the btc
1475 2011-04-12 15:25:51 <mtrlt> new word learned: sorghum
1476 2011-04-12 15:26:36 <sipa> i believe it was for 10000 BTC, which would be $8300 now :)
1477 2011-04-12 15:26:50 <mtrlt> heh
1478 2011-04-12 15:27:37 m00p has joined
1479 2011-04-12 15:27:44 <mtrlt> lfm: yea, but it'd be quite complex :P
1480 2011-04-12 15:28:00 <UukGoblin> britcoin is 'temporarily down for today (11 apr)'
1481 2011-04-12 15:28:10 <UukGoblin> I was pretty sure it is 12 apr today
1482 2011-04-12 15:28:13 <lfm> just gotta find a pizza joint that would accept a phone in credit card number
1483 2011-04-12 15:28:41 <lfm> UukGoblin: it would depend what part of the world you are in i guess
1484 2011-04-12 15:29:03 <UukGoblin> lfm, well, bRitcoin sounds bRitish, and that's where I am :-]
1485 2011-04-12 15:29:11 <mtrlt> it's not 11 apr any more in any part of the world
1486 2011-04-12 15:29:13 <UukGoblin> been a tuesday here for 16.5 hours already ;-]
1487 2011-04-12 15:29:56 <lfm> ya it apr 13 already some places, I dont think it is still the 11th anywhere
1488 2011-04-12 15:30:31 <mtrlt> unless there is a -17 hour time zone or something, which there isn't
1489 2011-04-12 15:32:09 maxlo1 has joined
1490 2011-04-12 15:32:32 NickelBot has joined
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1492 2011-04-12 15:32:53 <lfm> mtrlt: can your bank convert currency for ya if like you get a cheque in us dollars?
1493 2011-04-12 15:33:09 <mtrlt> i have never seen a cheque so i don't know :P
1494 2011-04-12 15:33:14 <mtrlt> sounds like the eighties
1495 2011-04-12 15:33:28 <mtrlt> but i guess they would
1496 2011-04-12 15:33:40 <mtrlt> they'd have to since my bank account can only contain euros
1497 2011-04-12 15:35:10 <lfm> well there is probably someplace you can convert dollars anyway and you can get cheques in us$ for bitcoin without too much trouble so you could eat your btc eventually if you really wanted to
1498 2011-04-12 15:35:24 <mtrlt> i can already withdraw them from mtgox
1499 2011-04-12 15:35:31 <mtrlt> in euros :)
1500 2011-04-12 15:35:51 <mtrlt> cause i'm in the SEPA zone
1501 2011-04-12 15:36:05 <lfm> ya Liberty euros or whatever that you still have to get converted somehow
1502 2011-04-12 15:36:31 <hozer> .. sorghum pictures .. http://excalibur.hozed.org/~hozer/photos/Sorghum/2010/Food/
1503 2011-04-12 15:37:43 <mtrlt> lfm: no, direct bank wire
1504 2011-04-12 15:37:49 <mtrlt> directly to my bank account
1505 2011-04-12 15:37:58 <lfm> oh ok, thats cool then
1506 2011-04-12 15:38:35 <lfm> I dont understand then why you say you cant eat em
1507 2011-04-12 15:39:05 <mtrlt> i can't buy food directly with BTC
1508 2011-04-12 15:39:09 <mtrlt> i have to convert them to EUR first
1509 2011-04-12 15:39:29 <Speeder> we need to convince a supermarket to accept BTC XD
1510 2011-04-12 15:39:37 <lfm> well if you wanna get that way, you cant eat euros either, you gotta trade em for food somehow first
1511 2011-04-12 15:39:40 gavinandresen has joined
1512 2011-04-12 15:40:25 <mtrlt> yes but the point is, i can't trade BTC directly for food.
1513 2011-04-12 15:40:33 <mtrlt> maybe my choice of words wasn't exact :P
1514 2011-04-12 15:40:55 <lfm> so they are no different, and maybe even slightly better than us$ for you
1515 2011-04-12 15:40:59 <mtrlt> and yeah, waiting in the supermarket line for an hour as your payment gets confirmed would be awesome :P
1516 2011-04-12 15:41:02 <gavinandresen> mtrit: not yet.  David, the alpaca farmer with the famous alpaca socks, was thinking about selling farm shares for bitcoin....
1517 2011-04-12 15:41:21 <mtrlt> :D
1518 2011-04-12 15:41:57 <lfm> ya btc in a physical store would suck, thats not what they are designed for
1519 2011-04-12 15:42:01 <mtrlt> well for me the problem of USD is the same as the problem of BTC. can't buy food, have to convert to EUR first.
1520 2011-04-12 15:45:04 purpleposeidon has joined
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1523 2011-04-12 15:52:53 <lfm> i see. so one extra step means you will starve with 1000s of btc sitting there I spoze
1524 2011-04-12 15:54:24 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1525 2011-04-12 15:54:41 <Stonetz> I'm thinking about doing some importing products for bitcoin
1526 2011-04-12 15:54:55 <Stonetz> wondering if someone else would be interested in the sales side
1527 2011-04-12 15:54:57 <lfm> its like complaining you dont like your employer cuz he doesnt pay you in food, only euros
1528 2011-04-12 15:55:39 <Stonetz> anyone on here have an online retail business in place already?
1529 2011-04-12 15:56:00 <Speeder> I plan to have to
1530 2011-04-12 15:56:02 <Speeder> but I have nothing to sell
1531 2011-04-12 15:56:21 <lfm> stonetz what you wanna buy
1532 2011-04-12 15:56:25 <nanotube> knotwork: what kind of products? i think madhatter has a few bitcoin stores out there... you could see if he'd be interested in cooperating
1533 2011-04-12 15:56:47 <Speeder> I want to sell games
1534 2011-04-12 15:56:48 <Speeder> :D
1535 2011-04-12 15:56:52 <Speeder> or code
1536 2011-04-12 15:56:56 <Speeder> or design
1537 2011-04-12 15:57:06 * Speeder is design and production consultant for game development
1538 2011-04-12 15:57:11 * Speeder also teaches Lua programming
1539 2011-04-12 15:57:38 <Stonetz> sell, not buy
1540 2011-04-12 15:57:41 <Stonetz> I live in CHile
1541 2011-04-12 15:57:51 <Stonetz> I import a lot to CHile but I'm going to start exporting
1542 2011-04-12 15:58:00 <Stonetz> Chile, sorry keep holding shift too long
1543 2011-04-12 15:58:04 <Stonetz> probably wine
1544 2011-04-12 15:58:21 <Stonetz> I've got friends that export it, pretty cheap but good stuff and I think btc could work well with that
1545 2011-04-12 15:58:40 <Stonetz> also a few other things like alpaca socks
1546 2011-04-12 15:58:49 <Stonetz> not enough of those on the btc market
1547 2011-04-12 15:58:51 <Stonetz> =0
1548 2011-04-12 15:58:57 <lfm> ya, cant do that here cuz gvmn has a monopoly on booze
1549 2011-04-12 15:59:51 da2ce7 is now known as da2ceZzzz
1550 2011-04-12 16:00:25 <Stonetz> where is here?
1551 2011-04-12 16:00:35 <Speeder> what is gvmn?
1552 2011-04-12 16:00:43 <Stonetz> government I'm guessing
1553 2011-04-12 16:01:15 <lfm> ya government, they really like to pile taxes on booze so they are the only ones allowed to import it
1554 2011-04-12 16:02:35 <lfm> Canada, the only exception is if I go get it in person and carry it over the border
1555 2011-04-12 16:02:35 <Stonetz> where are you at?
1556 2011-04-12 16:02:41 <Stonetz> ah
1557 2011-04-12 16:03:03 <Stonetz> you sure thats for liquor wine and beer?
1558 2011-04-12 16:03:15 <lfm> ya, all booze
1559 2011-04-12 16:03:29 <Stonetz> don't you guys have independent beer and wine stores?
1560 2011-04-12 16:03:41 <Stonetz> havent' been to canada for 5+ years or so
1561 2011-04-12 16:03:48 <lfm> ya but only one official monoploy distributor
1562 2011-04-12 16:04:07 <Speeder> crazy
1563 2011-04-12 16:04:15 <Speeder> Brazil is the land of booze
1564 2011-04-12 16:04:23 <Speeder> Brazil has the biggest beer company of the world
1565 2011-04-12 16:04:26 <lfm> like I said, they love to pile the taxes onto booze
1566 2011-04-12 16:05:36 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1567 2011-04-12 16:06:56 <Stonetz> yeah, that sucks, guess I'll just have to deal with the US
1568 2011-04-12 16:06:58 SanguineRose has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1569 2011-04-12 16:07:01 <hozer> hrrm.. maybe I should sell shares in this on-farm ethanol business in bitcoin
1570 2011-04-12 16:07:20 SanguineRose has joined
1571 2011-04-12 16:07:30 <hozer> Stonetz: what local ag products are there near you?
1572 2011-04-12 16:07:39 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1573 2011-04-12 16:07:43 <lfm> hozer: you got a moonshine still out back? grin
1574 2011-04-12 16:08:30 <hozer> I cannot recommend any production of moonshine without proper tax permits ;)
1575 2011-04-12 16:09:13 <hozer> However, I will be happy to sell you a bottle of sorghum liquour for say 40 BTC/bottle
1576 2011-04-12 16:09:16 NickelBot has joined
1577 2011-04-12 16:09:35 <lfm> hehe how large is the bottle?
1578 2011-04-12 16:09:38 <hozer> and 1/3 of that will be for the alcohol tax
1579 2011-04-12 16:09:41 <hozer> 750ml
1580 2011-04-12 16:10:02 <lfm> jeez, it better be pretty darn good stuff at that price
1581 2011-04-12 16:10:44 <hozer> lfm: where you at
1582 2011-04-12 16:10:51 <lfm> calgary
1583 2011-04-12 16:10:57 <hozer> if you want cheap, go get everclear ;)
1584 2011-04-12 16:11:25 <Stonetz> pretty rough
1585 2011-04-12 16:11:38 <lfm> well I think canadian club is cheaper than that
1586 2011-04-12 16:11:39 <hozer> so once I get this all set up, I'm pretty sure I will be the only artisan distiller that actually grows his own feedstock
1587 2011-04-12 16:11:56 <Stonetz> nice, what are you growing?
1588 2011-04-12 16:12:02 scoots has joined
1589 2011-04-12 16:12:07 <hozer> sweet sorghum ;)
1590 2011-04-12 16:12:19 <Stonetz> that easy to grow?
1591 2011-04-12 16:12:37 <hozer> oh it's easy to grow
1592 2011-04-12 16:12:40 <hozer> harvesting is a paiun
1593 2011-04-12 16:12:41 <hozer> pain
1594 2011-04-12 16:12:48 <Stonetz> I've been making some herb infused olive oils recently
1595 2011-04-12 16:12:51 <Stonetz> made sell those
1596 2011-04-12 16:12:53 <Stonetz> err maybe
1597 2011-04-12 16:12:59 <Stonetz> taste really good
1598 2011-04-12 16:13:20 <lfm> Stonetz: that sounds nice too. where are you?
1599 2011-04-12 16:13:56 <Stonetz> whats the easy way to respond to a personal message? haven't used IRC since I had a 486 and logged on to BBS's =)
1600 2011-04-12 16:13:59 <nanotube> gavinandresen: out of curiosity - have you set up the multi-spend to break up your faucet balance into .05 chunks, to avoid chains of unconf tx?
1601 2011-04-12 16:14:09 <hozer> what client?
1602 2011-04-12 16:14:10 comboy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1603 2011-04-12 16:14:21 <lfm> stonez /msg name meassage
1604 2011-04-12 16:14:23 <Stonetz> just using webchat, didn't download a clietn yet
1605 2011-04-12 16:14:32 <Stonetz> thanks
1606 2011-04-12 16:14:48 coldwind has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1607 2011-04-12 16:14:49 sabalaba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1608 2011-04-12 16:14:52 coldwind has joined
1609 2011-04-12 16:15:15 comboy has joined
1610 2011-04-12 16:15:18 <hozer> Stonetz: are these local olive oils?
1611 2011-04-12 16:15:38 <hozer> bah, mtgox is nto working it seems
1612 2011-04-12 16:15:52 <scoots> How are service like http://coinpal.ndrix.com/ selling bitcoins
1613 2011-04-12 16:16:12 <scoots> Do they own the coins them self or do the have an exchange in the background?
1614 2011-04-12 16:16:45 <hozer> hrr. I have something wacked with my firefox
1615 2011-04-12 16:17:04 <nanotube> scoots: well obviously coinpal doesn't have unlimited number of coins. so it buys more coins on the markets periodically.
1616 2011-04-12 16:17:21 <scoots> Ahh I see
1617 2011-04-12 16:17:25 <Speeder> nanotube:  actually, it is different
1618 2011-04-12 16:17:26 <Speeder> XD
1619 2011-04-12 16:17:30 <Speeder> I asked ndrix
1620 2011-04-12 16:17:32 <Speeder> how he do it
1621 2011-04-12 16:17:37 <nanotube> the length of the period of course, is up to interpretation.
1622 2011-04-12 16:17:38 <nanotube> :)
1623 2011-04-12 16:17:42 <Speeder> (becasue I want to do a simialr service but for a brazillian company)
1624 2011-04-12 16:18:01 <nanotube> Speeder: yes, so the period is actually very short. ;)
1625 2011-04-12 16:18:14 <Speeder> nanotube: he make deposits of USD on mtgox, and his program automatically buy coins from mtgox when it detects confirmed paypal payment
1626 2011-04-12 16:18:23 <Speeder> quite clever XD
1627 2011-04-12 16:18:27 <nanotube> right, short period. :)
1628 2011-04-12 16:19:27 <midnightmagic> i wonder if the automated-ness of that program is doing any damage to the market.
1629 2011-04-12 16:19:48 <Speeder> midnightmagic:  what program?
1630 2011-04-12 16:19:50 <Speeder> coinpal?
1631 2011-04-12 16:20:25 <nanotube> midnightmagic: it's just a passthrough of demand.
1632 2011-04-12 16:22:30 <scoots> Is there any code projects for bitcoins on shopify and what is the status?
1633 2011-04-12 16:23:47 <lfm> [871700.546420] bitcoind[12347]: segfault at ffffffe7 ip 0000000000410f78 sp 00007fa6f8ca9de0 error 4 in bitcoind[400000+39a000]
1634 2011-04-12 16:24:07 <Speeder> ?
1635 2011-04-12 16:24:29 <lfm> in my log
1636 2011-04-12 16:24:36 <lfm> system log
1637 2011-04-12 16:24:55 <Speeder> humm
1638 2011-04-12 16:25:04 <Speeder> bitcoind seemly is still crashing then
1639 2011-04-12 16:25:14 <Speeder> britcoin seemly had issues with that
1640 2011-04-12 16:25:17 <lfm>     "version" : 32002,
1641 2011-04-12 16:26:12 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1642 2011-04-12 16:28:40 <scoots> Is mtgox using the bitcoin-otc or own orders?
1643 2011-04-12 16:28:58 <sipa> they're completely separate
1644 2011-04-12 16:29:02 <scoots> I see
1645 2011-04-12 16:29:28 <scoots> Is there any trading in bitcoin-otc?
1646 2011-04-12 16:29:48 <sipa> sure
1647 2011-04-12 16:32:46 <Kiba> so, 30K USD changed hands within one day
1648 2011-04-12 16:35:16 <scoots> Every day or only "one" dat
1649 2011-04-12 16:35:18 <scoots> day?
1650 2011-04-12 16:35:19 <scoots>  (:
1651 2011-04-12 16:35:25 <Kiba> one day
1652 2011-04-12 16:35:35 <Kiba> today
1653 2011-04-12 16:41:24 <Speeder> ''bc, mtgox
1654 2011-04-12 16:41:28 <Speeder> ;;bc, mtgox
1655 2011-04-12 16:41:29 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
1656 2011-04-12 16:41:33 <Speeder> :(
1657 2011-04-12 16:41:39 <Speeder> why not?
1658 2011-04-12 16:41:46 <sipa> ;;bc,mtgox
1659 2011-04-12 16:41:47 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":0.8926,"low":0.7517,"vol":37683,"buy":0.84,"sell":0.853,"last":0.853}}
1660 2011-04-12 16:42:12 <Speeder> so, 37000k bitcoins traded today
1661 2011-04-12 16:42:15 <Speeder> interesting
1662 2011-04-12 16:42:22 <scoots> Cool!
1663 2011-04-12 16:43:02 <knotwork> nanotube: what kind of products *what*? dunno what you refer to there
1664 2011-04-12 16:43:16 <topi`> i want to start exchanging BTC for oil futures
1665 2011-04-12 16:43:17 <nanotube> knotwork: ?
1666 2011-04-12 16:43:33 <topi`> I see a lot of opportunities in oil futures :D the price will hit $140 eventually, and then i'll cash out
1667 2011-04-12 16:43:47 <nanotube> knotwork: oh whoops, that was supposed to be to Stonetz
1668 2011-04-12 16:43:53 <nanotube> hehe
1669 2011-04-12 16:45:07 <scoots> Is there any volume data for mtgox?
1670 2011-04-12 16:48:20 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1671 2011-04-12 16:48:24 <gavinandresen> nanotube:  re: breaking up bitcoin balance:  nope.  chains of unconfirmed faucet txns hasn't been a big enough problem to spend time on that; if I did, I'd probably tweak the change-making so when the faucet sent .05 from a larger coin it created three or four 0.5-sized coins
1672 2011-04-12 16:48:29 phantomcircuit has joined
1673 2011-04-12 16:49:40 <gavinandresen> (actually, I guess i'd want 0.6-sized coins, since the faucet pays a txfee with every send)
1674 2011-04-12 16:55:44 maikmerten has joined
1675 2011-04-12 16:56:29 Zarutian has joined
1676 2011-04-12 16:56:32 <scoots> Where do I find volume stats for bitcoin-otc?
1677 2011-04-12 16:56:41 <scoots> Or is 37683 for mtgox?
1678 2011-04-12 16:57:29 skyewm has joined
1679 2011-04-12 16:57:37 <sipa> 37683 BTC the past day on mtgox
1680 2011-04-12 16:57:50 <sipa> and otc doesn't know volume - it's just a meeting point where buyers and sellers meet
1681 2011-04-12 16:58:02 <scoots> Understand that now
1682 2011-04-12 16:58:17 JunK-Y has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1683 2011-04-12 16:58:21 JunK-Y has joined
1684 2011-04-12 17:00:21 <skyewm> hey, I've noticed that there are many printfs in the bitcoin source, but only the fprintf(stdout, ...)'s actually print to the console. Does anyone know why?
1685 2011-04-12 17:00:42 <nanotube> gavinandresen: if you do this, you can stop paying the fee. :) since you'll be using older coins, tx priority will be higher without fees.
1686 2011-04-12 17:02:00 <witten> skyewm: I imagine they're redirected to the log file
1687 2011-04-12 17:02:09 <gavinandresen> nanotube: ... but the faucet would be taking up free space from other, old, legitimate transactions.
1688 2011-04-12 17:02:14 <witten> which is a pretty crappy way to log, if you ask me
1689 2011-04-12 17:02:28 <phantomcircuit> witten, lol i had a 2GB log file
1690 2011-04-12 17:02:31 <phantomcircuit> i was like
1691 2011-04-12 17:02:32 <phantomcircuit> wat
1692 2011-04-12 17:02:33 <gavinandresen> skyewym:  printf is #defined to be OutputDebugStringF, and there's a setting to write to console
1693 2011-04-12 17:02:40 <gavinandresen> .. and a patch to rework logging
1694 2011-04-12 17:02:49 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, lol nice
1695 2011-04-12 17:03:01 <phantomcircuit> c++ best practices i see
1696 2011-04-12 17:03:02 <phantomcircuit> :P
1697 2011-04-12 17:03:21 <Kiba> gavinandresen: when will we see the next release?
1698 2011-04-12 17:03:21 <sipa> it was hard to write, it should be hard to read!
1699 2011-04-12 17:03:32 <phantomcircuit> sipa, rofl
1700 2011-04-12 17:03:46 <gavinandresen> Kiba:  I'm hoping to get sipa's spentpertxout into the next release...
1701 2011-04-12 17:03:54 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, can you explain why checksig operates in the convoluted way that it does?
1702 2011-04-12 17:03:55 <Kiba> I can't use bitcoin in archlinux anymore because bitcoin can't build against 1.46. Should I file a bug report about that?
1703 2011-04-12 17:04:06 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  nope.
1704 2011-04-12 17:04:12 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, lol
1705 2011-04-12 17:04:17 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, can anybody?
1706 2011-04-12 17:04:30 <Kiba> I can use the daemon though
1707 2011-04-12 17:04:41 <sipa> gavinandresen: that last getinfo output surely looks like an uninitialized number somewhere
1708 2011-04-12 17:04:48 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, 1.46 of what?
1709 2011-04-12 17:05:09 <gavinandresen> sipa:  yup.  I'm running on Mac...  I'll run it against valgrind and see if anything pops up
1710 2011-04-12 17:05:16 <nanotube> gavinandresen: true, but let them compete on their own merits. :)
1711 2011-04-12 17:05:18 <Kiba> boost
1712 2011-04-12 17:05:20 <skyewm> oo, didn't notice there was a log, thanks!
1713 2011-04-12 17:05:32 BCBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1714 2011-04-12 17:05:36 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, pastebin the build error
1715 2011-04-12 17:05:54 <Kiba> phantomcircuit: didn't build it manually
1716 2011-04-12 17:06:02 scoots has quit (Quit: Bah)
1717 2011-04-12 17:06:07 <Kiba> I tried to install it and it gave me a dependency error
1718 2011-04-12 17:06:07 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, oh
1719 2011-04-12 17:06:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: ... and it seems there is indeed a value not initialized :S
1720 2011-04-12 17:06:15 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, one sec
1721 2011-04-12 17:06:17 <sipa> fixing it right away
1722 2011-04-12 17:07:02 <Kiba> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=39313
1723 2011-04-12 17:07:19 <Kiba> it's impossible to build against 1.46 boost-libs because of major API change
1724 2011-04-12 17:08:12 tenach has joined
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1726 2011-04-12 17:08:12 tenach has joined
1727 2011-04-12 17:09:34 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, boost is statically linked iirc
1728 2011-04-12 17:09:44 * Kiba shrugs
1729 2011-04-12 17:09:53 <phantomcircuit> yeah it is
1730 2011-04-12 17:09:59 <phantomcircuit> pastebin whatever error you get
1731 2011-04-12 17:10:22 <Kiba> I got a daemon I can use
1732 2011-04-12 17:10:25 <Kiba> I am happy about that
1733 2011-04-12 17:10:31 <phantomcircuit> oh
1734 2011-04-12 17:10:32 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1735 2011-04-12 17:10:44 <phantomcircuit> you're trying to install using an arch package that is in turn building from source i think
1736 2011-04-12 17:10:44 BCBot has joined
1737 2011-04-12 17:11:06 <Kiba> that's correct
1738 2011-04-12 17:11:11 <Kiba> and it will only accept boost-libs
1739 2011-04-12 17:11:17 <Kiba> which I have to inconveninetly install
1740 2011-04-12 17:11:26 <Kiba> boost-libs 1.45 or lower
1741 2011-04-12 17:11:31 <phantomcircuit> well yeah
1742 2011-04-12 17:11:31 robotarmy has joined
1743 2011-04-12 17:11:49 <Kiba> and it prevent my package manager from upgrade
1744 2011-04-12 17:11:49 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, alternatively you could just download the prebuilt binaries
1745 2011-04-12 17:11:51 <Kiba> so annoying
1746 2011-04-12 17:11:58 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, building bitcoin is a nuicance
1747 2011-04-12 17:12:10 <phantomcircuit> lol wat
1748 2011-04-12 17:12:20 <phantomcircuit> arch cant have multiple boost versions installed simultaneously?
1749 2011-04-12 17:12:22 <phantomcircuit> ahah
1750 2011-04-12 17:12:22 <phantomcircuit> fail
1751 2011-04-12 17:12:33 <Kiba> I don't know
1752 2011-04-12 17:13:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: pull request is updated - if this was the bug it should work fine now (it's in-memory only, and the wallet shouldn't be corrupted)
1753 2011-04-12 17:13:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: cool, I'll give it a whirl right now
1754 2011-04-12 17:14:16 <topi`> i'm listening to podcast "Andresen on bitcoin and virtual currency" by Russ Roberts :)
1755 2011-04-12 17:14:40 <gavinandresen> Hey!  I know that guy!
1756 2011-04-12 17:14:42 <topi`> we need more podcasts that trigger people's imagination
1757 2011-04-12 17:14:53 <topi`> :)
1758 2011-04-12 17:15:18 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, hint arch is basically a poorly engineered clone of gentoo
1759 2011-04-12 17:15:39 <gavinandresen> I did another podcast a couple days ago; talked with Jerry Brito for the Surpringly Free podcast.  He said it'll probably be out next Tuesday
1760 2011-04-12 17:15:51 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, they periodically do stupid things, for example they recently made the default python interpreter python3
1761 2011-04-12 17:16:42 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, actually i think i know why the checksig stuff is so convoluted, the way it's setup practically guarantees against a chosen plaintext attack
1762 2011-04-12 17:17:21 <sipa> is there any way to see whether a pull request needs updating before it can be applied cleanly to the current master?
1763 2011-04-12 17:17:35 MacRohard has joined
1764 2011-04-12 17:17:46 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  if there's one thing I know, I know Satoshi knows a WHOLE lot more about crypto than I do...
1765 2011-04-12 17:18:08 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, rofl is there any chance at all that ill get a response if i ask on the forum?
1766 2011-04-12 17:18:33 <phantomcircuit> because i can think of at least 2 ways to accomplish the same thing that results in code that is at least an order of magnitude simpler
1767 2011-04-12 17:18:54 <sipa> you mean the erasing other signatures before hashing thing?
1768 2011-04-12 17:19:24 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  Hal and bytecoin might respond, and they're crypto-experts.  (bytecoin, right?  too many nicks similar to that...)
1769 2011-04-12 17:19:25 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1771 2011-04-12 17:21:16 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  ... although the chances of changing the way OP_CHECKSIG works are pretty much zero, assuming that the way it works now is secure.
1772 2011-04-12 17:21:49 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i was thinking more of extending the scripting engine with a new operation that would be both simpler and significantly faster
1773 2011-04-12 17:21:58 x6763 has joined
1774 2011-04-12 17:22:16 <topi`> ha! my ARM found proof of work :D
1775 2011-04-12 17:22:17 <topi`> [2011-03-12 19:18:55] PROOF OF WORK RESULT: true (yay!!!)
1776 2011-04-12 17:22:17 <topi`> [2011-03-12 19:18:55] thread 1: 1752642 hashes, 174.56 khash/sec
1777 2011-04-12 17:22:23 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit:  how can you make it faster?  the slow part is the core ECDSA signature checking...
1778 2011-04-12 17:22:26 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, as it stands now a low level ECDSA operation is run against a fairly large amount of data, which is extremely slow
1779 2011-04-12 17:22:47 <gavinandresen> Ah, so you'd checksig a hash or something....
1780 2011-04-12 17:22:48 <sipa> is it not just ran against the hash of the tx?
1781 2011-04-12 17:23:01 <sipa> hash of the sig-erased tx, that is
1782 2011-04-12 17:23:08 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1783 2011-04-12 17:23:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah it is actually
1784 2011-04-12 17:24:53 FabianB_ has joined
1785 2011-04-12 17:25:12 <gavinandresen> sipa:  your fix fixed it.
1786 2011-04-12 17:25:16 eao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1787 2011-04-12 17:25:29 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1788 2011-04-12 17:26:03 skyewm has joined
1789 2011-04-12 17:26:06 <sipa> ah, good :)
1790 2011-04-12 17:27:09 <sipa> i'll read over the patch again to see if any similar things may still be present
1791 2011-04-12 17:27:30 <topi`> I guess I need to re-read Satoshi's white paper. does one need to apply ECDSA to the entire block-chain when signing candidate transactions to one's block?
1792 2011-04-12 17:28:07 <lfm> um, no
1793 2011-04-12 17:28:21 <gavinandresen> It is hashes all the way down.
1794 2011-04-12 17:28:25 <sipa> haha
1795 2011-04-12 17:29:50 Sonihr has joined
1796 2011-04-12 17:30:26 <Kiba> gavinandresen: if ya speed it up, does it make mining faster?
1797 2011-04-12 17:31:35 sethsethseth has joined
1798 2011-04-12 17:31:47 <sipa> no
1799 2011-04-12 17:31:51 <lfm> kiba speed ECDSA up? no, mining only uses sha256
1800 2011-04-12 17:31:54 <sipa> mining doesn't require any ecdsa operations
1801 2011-04-12 17:31:54 <gavinandresen> Kiba: speed up what?  OP_CHECKSIG?   It'd make miners assemble blocks faster, but I think that's a minor percentage of ... er... miners
1802 2011-04-12 17:32:39 larsivi has joined
1803 2011-04-12 17:32:53 <lfm> unless we are bogged down verifying spam txn
1804 2011-04-12 17:33:33 <gavinandresen> Any big mining pool operators paying attention?  slush?  [Tycho] ?
1805 2011-04-12 17:34:07 Omni is now known as AFK!~hopper@pdpc/supporter/professional/omnifarious|Omnifarious
1806 2011-04-12 17:34:48 <[Tycho]> Hello.
1807 2011-04-12 17:35:30 <gavinandresen> [Tycho] : there was an issue a week or two ago with mining pool operators and big miners having trouble with assembling blocks taking a long time
1808 2011-04-12 17:35:39 <gavinandresen> I think.  If I recall correctly
1809 2011-04-12 17:35:44 <gavinandresen> Did that get resolved?
1810 2011-04-12 17:36:27 Furao has joined
1811 2011-04-12 17:36:47 <[Tycho]> That thing with transactions flood ?
1812 2011-04-12 17:37:21 <gavinandresen> Yeah-- was taking a bunch of seconds to assemble transactions into a block, if I remember
1813 2011-04-12 17:37:23 <phantomcircuit> so it strikes me that pools have on significant advantage
1814 2011-04-12 17:37:37 <phantomcircuit> they have practically no reason not to include any and all transactions
1815 2011-04-12 17:37:40 <[Tycho]> I created some workarounds for that.
1816 2011-04-12 17:38:11 <gavinandresen> I'm just wondering if anything needs to be done immediately, for the next release, or if it is all under control.
1817 2011-04-12 17:38:29 <[Tycho]> No problems with it ATM
1818 2011-04-12 17:38:34 <gavinandresen> cool, thanks
1819 2011-04-12 17:38:44 <[Tycho]> And the flood is gone.
1820 2011-04-12 17:38:52 <sethsethseth> does anyone have a link that lists all the mtgox orders
1821 2011-04-12 17:39:01 <[Tycho]> So next release is coming ?
1822 2011-04-12 17:39:08 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1823 2011-04-12 17:39:32 <phantomcircuit> sethsethseth, http://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php
1824 2011-04-12 17:39:32 <sipa> gavinandresen: this issue? http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4853 ?
1825 2011-04-12 17:39:35 <gavinandresen> Yes, sipa's spentpertxout was the last thing on my "aught to be in" list, and I want to get sendmany and -limitfreerelay out.
1826 2011-04-12 17:40:23 <sethsethseth> thanks phantom, but there used to be something that listed it all in a readable way
1827 2011-04-12 17:40:37 <phantomcircuit> sethsethseth, you cant read that?
1828 2011-04-12 17:40:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks, that's the issue
1829 2011-04-12 17:40:54 <phantomcircuit> sethsethseth, click depth of market http://mtgox.com/trade/history
1830 2011-04-12 17:41:17 maikmerten has joined
1831 2011-04-12 17:41:33 TDX_ is now known as TD
1832 2011-04-12 17:41:36 <sethsethseth> ahh, taht works
1833 2011-04-12 17:41:37 <sethsethseth> thanks
1834 2011-04-12 17:41:58 <TD> gavinandresen: i think the issue was the disk lookups for verifying tx dependencies
1835 2011-04-12 17:42:22 <TD> gavinandresen: apparently there was a bunch of repeated/redundant verifications being done. artforz was looking at it but decided it was too risky to change that code given the complexity and lack of tests
1836 2011-04-12 17:42:36 <gavinandresen> Wise man, that ArtForz...
1837 2011-04-12 17:42:52 <TD> yeah, i was encouraging him to not even try, heh :-)
1838 2011-04-12 17:42:59 <TD> it's unfortunate
1839 2011-04-12 17:43:22 <TD> his analysis was correct. there's unnecessary disk seeks being done when building blocks. which happens a lot if you have lots of getworks being done on big blocks.
1840 2011-04-12 17:44:07 <lfm> a case for SSDs
1841 2011-04-12 17:44:23 <TD> the data is small enough that most machines should be able to host the entire thing in RAM. the OS should already be having the thing in disk cache.
1842 2011-04-12 17:44:32 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1843 2011-04-12 17:44:33 <TD> i'm not sure why that wasn't happening
1844 2011-04-12 17:44:33 <gribble> 118009
1845 2011-04-12 17:45:11 <lfm> maybe is for some people
1846 2011-04-12 17:45:52 <sipa> maybe the database code uses some synchronization calls?
1847 2011-04-12 17:46:46 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r335e878 / (main.cpp main.h):
1848 2011-04-12 17:46:46 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Spent per txout
1849 2011-04-12 17:46:46 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Change some internal data structures to keep track of spentness of each wallet transaction output separately, to support partially-spent transactions:
1850 2011-04-12 17:46:46 <CIA-89> bitcoin: * an update to the data structures (vfSpent in CWalletTx instead of fSpent)
1851 2011-04-12 17:46:46 <CIA-89> bitcoin: * a backward-compatible update to the wallet disk format. Old clients reading back an updated wallet will ignore partially spent transactions when creating new ones, and may report a wrong balance, though.
1852 2011-04-12 17:46:47 <CIA-89> bitcoin: * some helper functions (CWalletTx: IsSpent, MarkSpent, MarkDirty to reset cached values, GetAvailableCredit which only counts unredeemed outputs) - http://bit.ly/gksE5R
1853 2011-04-12 17:46:48 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * raca3f96 / main.cpp :
1854 2011-04-12 17:46:48 <CIA-89> bitcoin: select transaction outputs separately
1855 2011-04-12 17:46:49 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Update to SelectCoins and CreateTransaction to select source transaction outputs separately instead of per whole transaction. - http://bit.ly/eeWhO6
1856 2011-04-12 17:46:58 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r2e8b338 / (main.cpp main.h): Merge branch 'spentpertxout' of https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin - http://bit.ly/ekDUaL
1857 2011-04-12 17:47:41 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1858 2011-04-12 17:48:42 <sipa> wow, it lists the entire commit message
1859 2011-04-12 17:49:21 <gavinandresen> You should see it when I sync the svn tree with the git tree....
1860 2011-04-12 17:49:59 <topi`> why is there a svn tree? masochism? :)
1861 2011-04-12 17:51:19 <gavinandresen> Yes, I enjoy moving code around...   No, historical continuity-- people pull from the svn tree to get the latest stable.
1862 2011-04-12 17:52:11 <WakiMiko> isnt there some git plugin that makes it pretend its an svn server?
1863 2011-04-12 17:52:41 <Kiba> why does Satoshi use svn instead of git when he started the project?
1864 2011-04-12 17:52:49 <WakiMiko> https://github.com/blog/626-announcing-svn-support
1865 2011-04-12 17:52:55 <sipa> i suppose because he wasn't familiar with git :)
1866 2011-04-12 17:53:24 <topi`> gavinandresen: I enjoy especially this bit in the interview: "do you see any chance of bitcoin replacing the federal reserve? -I don't see any theoretical barrier to that happening" :)
1867 2011-04-12 17:53:37 <mtrlt> svn >_<
1868 2011-04-12 17:53:50 <mtrlt> why would anyone in their right mind use svn, i don't understand :(
1869 2011-04-12 17:53:51 <luke-jr> Kiba: probably also because GitHub doesn't allow anonymous accounts
1870 2011-04-12 17:54:03 <topi`> you just said something that will make a lot of very powerful people a bit uneasy.
1871 2011-04-12 17:54:10 <luke-jr> mtrlt: actually, svn has feature git and bazaar don't
1872 2011-04-12 17:54:22 <sipa> i love svn, actually
1873 2011-04-12 17:54:22 <luke-jr> features*
1874 2011-04-12 17:54:22 <mtrlt> like what? :P
1875 2011-04-12 17:54:26 <sipa> but not for collaborating
1876 2011-04-12 17:54:27 <gavinandresen> topi`: nah, powerful people are overconfident.
1877 2011-04-12 17:54:27 <luke-jr> like real cherry-picking
1878 2011-04-12 17:54:29 <luke-jr> and copying
1879 2011-04-12 17:54:40 <luke-jr> and file properties
1880 2011-04-12 17:54:42 <sipa> but for my own personal code, having backups and stuff
1881 2011-04-12 17:54:45 <topi`> gavinandresen: they also have guns and thugs and can make all sorts of tricks
1882 2011-04-12 17:55:09 <mtrlt> well yeah, but as a whole i think svn is a mess. used it for a few months
1883 2011-04-12 17:55:15 <mtrlt> before switching to git :)
1884 2011-04-12 17:55:17 <topi`> which reminds me, i should have concealed my identity  before joining here
1885 2011-04-12 17:55:34 <luke-jr> topi`: why?
1886 2011-04-12 17:55:51 <lfm> yup they have done a real good job stopping other distributed networks too ... oh wait!
1887 2011-04-12 17:55:53 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: does the svn tree do CIA? why?
1888 2011-04-12 17:56:16 <Kiba> luke-jr: doesn't allow anonymous accounts?
1889 2011-04-12 17:56:19 <WakiMiko> i use git for everything nowadays, not only for code
1890 2011-04-12 17:56:23 <gavinandresen> svn tree does do CIA, why, I dunno, I didn't setup the CIA bots
1891 2011-04-12 17:56:29 <luke-jr> Kiba: GitHub requires a full real name
1892 2011-04-12 17:56:35 <WakiMiko> like, keeping track of my dotfiles and stuff
1893 2011-04-12 17:56:40 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: should be an easy setting in SourceForge
1894 2011-04-12 17:56:48 <Kiba> topi`: If I were Goldman Sach, I would invest in bitcoin immediately with a 1 million dollars cash infusion
1895 2011-04-12 17:56:49 <WakiMiko> github doesnt know my real name
1896 2011-04-12 17:56:51 <mtrlt> full real name and you can't just put John Smith?
1897 2011-04-12 17:56:54 <mtrlt> how do they check it
1898 2011-04-12 17:56:55 <Kiba> luke-jr: that's nonsense
1899 2011-04-12 17:57:03 <gavinandresen> No, github sends somebody to your house to check your ID.
1900 2011-04-12 17:57:03 <sipa> that github svn actually seems to work
1901 2011-04-12 17:57:07 <mtrlt> :D
1902 2011-04-12 17:57:09 <sipa> only master branch though
1903 2011-04-12 17:57:25 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: then you're violating their TOS
1904 2011-04-12 17:57:30 <WakiMiko> woops
1905 2011-04-12 17:57:31 <gavinandresen> (maybe github only did that to me, though, cause of my reputation and everything)
1906 2011-04-12 17:57:35 <WakiMiko> well if they knock on my door
1907 2011-04-12 17:57:45 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: they really did? O.o
1908 2011-04-12 17:57:45 <WakiMiko> i will them to fork off
1909 2011-04-12 17:57:49 <WakiMiko> tell*
1910 2011-04-12 17:58:00 <Speeder> Kiba that is quite imposible
1911 2011-04-12 17:58:01 <gavinandresen> No, no, just kidding.  Had to send a blood sample, though.
1912 2011-04-12 17:58:09 <gavinandresen> No, really, no no no
1913 2011-04-12 17:58:09 <luke-jr> WakiMiko: … then they'll delete all your data :P
1914 2011-04-12 17:58:12 <Speeder> buying 1 million dollar of btc outright
1915 2011-04-12 17:58:13 <mtrlt> for the centralized dna database
1916 2011-04-12 17:58:14 <Kiba> Speeder: why?
1917 2011-04-12 17:58:20 <WakiMiko> i have no data on github -_-
1918 2011-04-12 17:58:26 <Speeder> because only almost 6 million btc exists
1919 2011-04-12 17:58:31 <Speeder> you  cannot buy esaily 1/6 of a market
1920 2011-04-12 17:58:33 <Kiba> how is that impossible?
1921 2011-04-12 17:58:35 <Kiba> so?
1922 2011-04-12 17:58:54 <luke-jr> Speeder: he can
1923 2011-04-12 17:58:55 <Speeder> if you buy 1 million USD in BTC, the result would be a huge bubble
1924 2011-04-12 17:58:59 <Speeder> that would crash later
1925 2011-04-12 17:58:59 <luke-jr> Speeder: he'd make the price skyrocket tho
1926 2011-04-12 17:59:10 <Speeder> and he would lose money
1927 2011-04-12 17:59:23 <Kiba> if someone buy 1 million USD of BTC, there would be big media attention
1928 2011-04-12 17:59:26 <Speeder> noone is stupid enough (or I hope so) to do that
1929 2011-04-12 17:59:28 <hozer> sssshhh, we should be encouraging such foolishness
1930 2011-04-12 17:59:39 <topi`> I think Bitcoin would benefit more from a certain market stability than any bubbles right now
1931 2011-04-12 17:59:49 <Speeder> exactly what topi said
1932 2011-04-12 17:59:53 <luke-jr> agree w topi
1933 2011-04-12 17:59:56 <Speeder> we need to let Bitcoin grow steady and strong
1934 2011-04-12 18:00:09 <topi`> but there are no market limits, so how?
1935 2011-04-12 18:00:14 <hozer> alright, who's willing to commit 100K bitcoins to running a market stability bot ;)
1936 2011-04-12 18:00:22 <Speeder> if we get much more speculation than actual use of bitcoin, the currency would crash, hard
1937 2011-04-12 18:00:34 <Speeder> hozer market stability comes from use
1938 2011-04-12 18:00:37 <Speeder> not from speculation
1939 2011-04-12 18:00:59 <hozer> I'm not talking about trading to make a profit, I'm talking about trading to hold the market stable ;)
1940 2011-04-12 18:01:01 <Speeder> the market will remain volatile while people don't use BTC to actually buy and sell stuff
1941 2011-04-12 18:01:06 <Kiba> 0.80 resistance is almost gone
1942 2011-04-12 18:01:08 <Speeder> I know
1943 2011-04-12 18:01:12 <luke-jr> actually, given enough BTC, you could easily stabilize the market at .6
1944 2011-04-12 18:01:14 <hozer> price rises faster than threshold, you sell
1945 2011-04-12 18:01:16 <Speeder> that is what I am talking about
1946 2011-04-12 18:01:18 <Kiba> the .80 range is almost...completely gone
1947 2011-04-12 18:01:38 <Speeder> you cannot stabilizie the market by buying and selling currency
1948 2011-04-12 18:01:48 <Speeder> you can only stabilize the market, by buying and NOT selling currency, but using it instead
1949 2011-04-12 18:01:57 <luke-jr> or hoarding it
1950 2011-04-12 18:02:12 <hozer> I agree though, use is the best deal
1951 2011-04-12 18:02:14 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1952 2011-04-12 18:02:33 <phantomcircuit> ECDSA operations are taking between 0.5 and 1 ms on this sytem
1953 2011-04-12 18:02:36 <Speeder> hoarding it does not make it stable
1954 2011-04-12 18:02:39 <Speeder> it causes inflaction
1955 2011-04-12 18:02:43 <phantomcircuit> so sounds about right
1956 2011-04-12 18:02:45 <Speeder> (or rather, deflaction)
1957 2011-04-12 18:02:46 <luke-jr> but put in a sell of 100 kBTC at .5, you've stabilized it for quite some time
1958 2011-04-12 18:02:52 <Kiba> hoarding cause inflation O_o
1959 2011-04-12 18:03:08 <Speeder> deflaction because the prices of stuff based on BTC decrease
1960 2011-04-12 18:03:11 <Speeder> as BTC value increase
1961 2011-04-12 18:03:34 <Kiba> that's not how you spell deflation and inflation, Speeder
1962 2011-04-12 18:03:34 <Speeder> as people hoard, BTC become more rare, thus you have to charge less if you want to sell
1963 2011-04-12 18:03:51 <Speeder> it is deflaction of prices, and inflaction of BTC value
1964 2011-04-12 18:03:53 <Speeder> ;)
1965 2011-04-12 18:03:54 <Kiba> I heard the deflationary spiral argument a billion time, I ain't buying it
1966 2011-04-12 18:04:10 <Speeder> Kiba it happens if people hoard BTC.
1967 2011-04-12 18:04:12 <Speeder> It is possible
1968 2011-04-12 18:04:16 <Speeder> It does not mean it will happen
1969 2011-04-12 18:04:23 <Kiba> people hoard bitcoin all the time
1970 2011-04-12 18:04:31 <mtrlt> people hoard real money too :P
1971 2011-04-12 18:04:33 <Speeder> Kiba but the market is still flowing.
1972 2011-04-12 18:04:40 <gavinandresen> Deflation is good for everybody except for borrowers.
1973 2011-04-12 18:04:44 <Kiba> bitcoin is not real money?
1974 2011-04-12 18:04:50 <lfm> market could be stable with 90% hoarding
1975 2011-04-12 18:04:52 <phantomcircuit> part of japans problem is that everybody had cash
1976 2011-04-12 18:04:54 <Speeder> I am saying that hoarding to the point that would "stabilize" would cause deflaction instead.
1977 2011-04-12 18:05:02 <phantomcircuit> so all those people who lost their houses also lost significant savings
1978 2011-04-12 18:05:18 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, new btc is still being minted, so not
1979 2011-04-12 18:05:26 <Kiba> Japanese saving is counteracting the policies of central banks
1980 2011-04-12 18:06:22 <Speeder> phantomcircuit:  I am nto talking about the current market, I am talking about people trying to stabilize price by for example selling 100k btc at 0.5 and everyone else hoarding it waiting for the sale to end.
1981 2011-04-12 18:06:23 <topi`> I honestly can't see bitcoin as a kind of currency for mega-class investments for new companies or whatnot. bitcoin works best as an exchange media in the immediacy of it
1982 2011-04-12 18:06:25 <Speeder> or something like that.
1983 2011-04-12 18:06:58 <Kiba> hmm
1984 2011-04-12 18:07:06 <Kiba> the bitcoin economy is smaller than most MMOs
1985 2011-04-12 18:07:47 <topi`> indeed.
1986 2011-04-12 18:07:52 <Speeder> yep
1987 2011-04-12 18:08:00 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1988 2011-04-12 18:08:07 <Speeder> bitcoin need peopel buying and selling stuff
1989 2011-04-12 18:08:19 <Speeder> actual stuff, insted of currency (Taht is actually quite ethereal too)
1990 2011-04-12 18:08:29 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, indeed mmos could use btc
1991 2011-04-12 18:08:44 <topi`> and people employing each other (in current market climate, dollars and euros are getting more and more difficult to get hold of, so how do you employ someone else?)
1992 2011-04-12 18:08:49 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but it would be stupid
1993 2011-04-12 18:09:15 <Speeder> topi`:  indeed
1994 2011-04-12 18:09:17 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, why you'd be able to do cross mmo sales
1995 2011-04-12 18:09:17 <Speeder> btw: I work for BTC ;)
1996 2011-04-12 18:09:24 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: because MMOs could just create their own fiat
1997 2011-04-12 18:09:32 <tenach> Speeder: I'm working toward that, haha.
1998 2011-04-12 18:09:34 <topi`> I should start working for BTC. anyone need a lawn mowed? :)
1999 2011-04-12 18:09:40 <Speeder> lol
2000 2011-04-12 18:09:46 <luke-jr> topi`: how much?
2001 2011-04-12 18:09:54 <Speeder> I am game design and production conculstant
2002 2011-04-12 18:09:56 <Speeder> also I teach Lua
2003 2011-04-12 18:09:57 <topi`> dunno. 10 BTC per hour? :)
2004 2011-04-12 18:09:57 <Speeder> XD
2005 2011-04-12 18:10:01 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yeah but you have to use currency exchangers for cross mmo
2006 2011-04-12 18:10:21 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: most MMO don't want you able to cash out
2007 2011-04-12 18:10:34 <luke-jr> that would make them subject to gambling regulations\
2008 2011-04-12 18:10:58 <Speeder> like happened to second life
2009 2011-04-12 18:11:08 <Speeder> that had to remove all random generators related to money
2010 2011-04-12 18:11:16 NickelBot has joined
2011 2011-04-12 18:11:24 <Speeder> (ie: any code that handled money and had a rand() on it was purged)
2012 2011-04-12 18:11:48 <lfm> sillyness
2013 2011-04-12 18:12:01 <Speeder> omg
2014 2011-04-12 18:12:15 <Speeder> someone dropped the price from 0.89 to 0.84 with a sale of 2 BTC
2015 2011-04-12 18:12:18 <Speeder> >.<
2016 2011-04-12 18:12:33 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2017 2011-04-12 18:12:33 <lfm> to be expected
2018 2011-04-12 18:12:38 <topi`> it can happen :)
2019 2011-04-12 18:12:49 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, there's usually a multi cent gap between sellers and buyers
2020 2011-04-12 18:12:50 <topi`> I've traded a lot in EVE online, and know how to manipulate the big markets :)
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2022 2011-04-12 18:12:54 <phantomcircuit> the volume really isn't high enough
2023 2011-04-12 18:13:24 <lfm> 42k vol?
2024 2011-04-12 18:13:28 <Speeder> I thought of selling 1 BTC at 0.5 just to see what happen
2025 2011-04-12 18:13:38 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, nothing
2026 2011-04-12 18:13:42 <Speeder> why not?
2027 2011-04-12 18:13:52 <lfm> Speeder: nothing you would get like 82 cents for it anyway
2028 2011-04-12 18:14:10 <Speeder> humm
2029 2011-04-12 18:14:14 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, you'd sell 1 BTC @ 0.5 USD
2030 2011-04-12 18:14:14 <Speeder> I see
2031 2011-04-12 18:14:21 <phantomcircuit> here ill do it
2032 2011-04-12 18:14:37 <lfm> Speeder: now if you sold 50000 btc for .50, that would move the market
2033 2011-04-12 18:14:55 <Speeder> because everyone would change their bid prices to 0.5?
2034 2011-04-12 18:14:57 <luke-jr> [14:12:00] <ljrbot> trade mtgox:         20.00   BTC @    0.89       USD
2035 2011-04-12 18:15:14 <luke-jr> Speeder: no, because you'd sell to all the bids over .5
2036 2011-04-12 18:15:15 <lfm> Speeder: no, cuz you would eat up all the high offers
2037 2011-04-12 18:15:41 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, you're matched first with the highest bidder
2038 2011-04-12 18:15:59 <Speeder> I see...
2039 2011-04-12 18:16:07 <Speeder> someone just dropped the price to 0.86 btc using 1 BTC
2040 2011-04-12 18:16:11 <Speeder> 0.86 usd
2041 2011-04-12 18:16:18 <Speeder> but not below
2042 2011-04-12 18:16:46 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, that was me
2043 2011-04-12 18:16:55 <phantomcircuit> i sold 1 BTC @ 0.5
2044 2011-04-12 18:16:55 <Speeder> phantomcircuit:  I know
2045 2011-04-12 18:17:00 <Speeder> you mentioned you was going to do it
2046 2011-04-12 18:17:05 <phantomcircuit> which matched me up with the buyer @ 0.86
2047 2011-04-12 18:17:07 <Speeder> (how you did it? mtgox require at least 10 BTC on sale)
2048 2011-04-12 18:17:23 <topi`> gavinandresen: how did this whole EconTalk interview get started? did you know somebody?
2049 2011-04-12 18:17:25 <luke-jr> Speeder: only have 1 BTC balance :D
2050 2011-04-12 18:17:52 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, does it? i dont think it does
2051 2011-04-12 18:17:54 <Speeder> Oh, I see.
2052 2011-04-12 18:17:57 <Speeder> :P
2053 2011-04-12 18:18:20 <Speeder> phantomcircuit:  it does not allowed me to type less than 10 BTC
2054 2011-04-12 18:18:20 <phantomcircuit> given i just did it
2055 2011-04-12 18:18:24 <gavinandresen> topi` : No, Russ Roberts contacted me after, apparently, many people suggested he should do an episode on bitcoin
2056 2011-04-12 18:19:14 <Speeder> it is funny how the market right now is in such fuzz and power, for no reason
2057 2011-04-12 18:19:18 <gavinandresen> topi` : I was very pleasantly surprised, EconTalk is one of my favorite podcasts (and I wasn't one of the people who emailed Russ about doing it)
2058 2011-04-12 18:19:20 <Speeder> I mean, nothing important actually hapepend
2059 2011-04-12 18:19:25 <Speeder> no new business based on BTC
2060 2011-04-12 18:19:28 <Speeder> no new service
2061 2011-04-12 18:19:32 <Speeder> no major player
2062 2011-04-12 18:19:40 <Speeder> it was only a big buy on the night...
2063 2011-04-12 18:19:46 <Speeder> and suddenly the prices rally upward
2064 2011-04-12 18:20:25 <topi`> gavinandresen: have you been following any other alternative currency podcasts or sites? like p2pfoundation.org
2065 2011-04-12 18:20:44 <gavinandresen> topi` : no, should I?
2066 2011-04-12 18:21:04 <lfm> speeder does it make you feel like real investment bankers?
2067 2011-04-12 18:21:19 <topi`> there's plenty of stuff (mostly theoretical) about different methods of introducing alternative currencies in p2pfoundation's wiki
2068 2011-04-12 18:21:28 <Speeder> lfm: nope, not really XD
2069 2011-04-12 18:21:52 <topi`> gavinandresen: I was just thinking that maybe you would be interested in the "non-conventional" side of economical theory
2070 2011-04-12 18:21:52 <lfm> they enjoy manipulating markets too I hear
2071 2011-04-12 18:21:54 <Speeder> bitcoin to me feels like a experiment
2072 2011-04-12 18:21:59 <gavinandresen> Yeah, I'm more of a do-er rather than a talk-er...
2073 2011-04-12 18:22:01 <Speeder> lfm: oh, that is ture.
2074 2011-04-12 18:22:11 <topi`> reading guys like Silvio Gesell and his followers
2075 2011-04-12 18:22:15 <Speeder> I mean, bitcoin feels right now as a training ground for speculation
2076 2011-04-12 18:22:16 <jgarzik> Speeder: that's because it is an experiment.  a risky experiment that could fail at any time.
2077 2011-04-12 18:22:32 <lfm> yup still in beta
2078 2011-04-12 18:22:33 <topi`> gavin: ok, I'm the one who talks and thinks but does not manage to write a single line of code :D
2079 2011-04-12 18:22:47 <Speeder> bitcoin is like a market where you can do true speculation but without risking several thousand dollars.
2080 2011-04-12 18:22:56 <Speeder> (risking at most 10.000 unless you are nuts)
2081 2011-04-12 18:23:08 <lfm> Speeder: you can too risk several thousand dollars
2082 2011-04-12 18:23:22 <Speeder> several thousands I mean 500.000 onward
2083 2011-04-12 18:23:42 <Speeder> you cannot do that right now (hell, if you buy the entire mtgox today you get 50k...)
2084 2011-04-12 18:23:45 <topi`> I think bitcoin is safe as long as at least *half* of bitcoin "population" is sane enough not to abandon ship at the first slippery slope down
2085 2011-04-12 18:23:49 <lfm> and I suspect some drug dealers are doing so already
2086 2011-04-12 18:24:16 <Speeder> lfm:  what they are doing already? abandoning ship?
2087 2011-04-12 18:24:21 <topi`> the only reason why stock exchange courses keep on plunging down and then back up again, is the fact that most ppl follow their investments every hour. or at least every day
2088 2011-04-12 18:24:38 <lfm> investing several thousands or just moving it around
2089 2011-04-12 18:24:49 <topi`> i mean stocks
2090 2011-04-12 18:24:53 Furao has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2091 2011-04-12 18:24:58 <phantomcircuit> topi`, yeah damned day traders
2092 2011-04-12 18:25:04 <Speeder> XD
2093 2011-04-12 18:25:09 <phantomcircuit> HURR I CAN BEAT THE MARKET ON A MINUTE BY MINUTE BASIS
2094 2011-04-12 18:25:11 * Speeder intends to be a day trader
2095 2011-04-12 18:25:13 <topi`> phantomcircuit: it's one way of introducing speculation
2096 2011-04-12 18:25:26 <Speeder> day trading is awesome if you know what you are doing
2097 2011-04-12 18:25:28 <phantomcircuit> i mean i like the liquidity that they produce
2098 2011-04-12 18:25:33 <Speeder> you can do some quick cash
2099 2011-04-12 18:25:35 <Speeder> (also quick losses)
2100 2011-04-12 18:25:45 <topi`> because effectively you speculate that the *others* will follow suit and sell, so you have to be the *first* who sells
2101 2011-04-12 18:25:51 <lfm> and it brings instability and occilations
2102 2011-04-12 18:26:04 <phantomcircuit> Speeder, i know of only one person who consistently makes money day trading and that's because he has 10 million bucks in capital
2103 2011-04-12 18:26:08 <topi`> stock exchange is like a herd of sheep
2104 2011-04-12 18:26:27 <Speeder> phantomcircuit:  I intend to do so in BTC, need less capital...
2105 2011-04-12 18:26:44 <topi`> and you can mine your own capital ;)
2106 2011-04-12 18:26:54 <lfm> esiest way to get a million dollars? start with 2 million
2107 2011-04-12 18:27:06 <topi`> lfm: you should write a book :D
2108 2011-04-12 18:27:09 <dinox> lfm: thats cheating
2109 2011-04-12 18:27:26 <Speeder> I wonder how much early adopters profited
2110 2011-04-12 18:27:43 <dinox> maybe start with 10 * hd5970? ^^
2111 2011-04-12 18:27:46 <Speeder> I mean, someone maybe bought several thousand BTC when it was below 0.1 right?
2112 2011-04-12 18:28:00 <[Tycho]> Hmm, somehow many transactions aren't confirmed for a long time
2113 2011-04-12 18:28:04 <topi`> Speeder: many early adopters have already sold like half of their BTC
2114 2011-04-12 18:28:06 <lfm> dinox there were no gpus mining till last august or so
2115 2011-04-12 18:28:26 <Speeder> topi`: but the other half is now VERY valuable
2116 2011-04-12 18:28:33 <Speeder> in comparison to what they spent for it
2117 2011-04-12 18:28:37 <topi`> Speeder: like my little brother, he mined a few blocks after the slashdot last year, but he has spent most of it :)
2118 2011-04-12 18:28:39 <dinox> whats was difficulty in last august then?
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2120 2011-04-12 18:29:01 BlueMatt has joined
2121 2011-04-12 18:29:01 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
2122 2011-04-12 18:29:01 BlueMatt has joined
2123 2011-04-12 18:29:01 <lfm> dinox: 100 .. 200 or so
2124 2011-04-12 18:29:15 <topi`> last august, nobody was mining with GPUs
2125 2011-04-12 18:29:27 <topi`> so they burned a lot of watts in the CPUs :)
2126 2011-04-12 18:29:40 <phantomcircuit> MagicalTux, so i see that mtgox.com says there is a trading fee of 0.65%
2127 2011-04-12 18:29:42 <phantomcircuit> interesting
2128 2011-04-12 18:29:43 <lfm> http://www3.telus.net/millerlf/diffs.txt
2129 2011-04-12 18:29:57 <sipa> topi`: i'm quite sure more watts are being burned right now in cpu's than in august :)
2130 2011-04-12 18:30:00 <lfm> topi`: I thot ArtForz started about then
2131 2011-04-12 18:30:03 <dinox> lfm: thats mean like 1000btc/day with a 5970 or so?
2132 2011-04-12 18:30:16 <Speeder> thus MagicalTux won 260 btc today
2133 2011-04-12 18:30:26 <dinox> nice
2134 2011-04-12 18:30:30 <dinox> where?
2135 2011-04-12 18:30:32 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 630000 150
2136 2011-04-12 18:30:34 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
2137 2011-04-12 18:30:38 <sipa> ;;bc,gend 630000 150
2138 2011-04-12 18:30:39 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 630000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 150, is 4224.47919846 BTC per day and 176.019966602 BTC per hour.
2139 2011-04-12 18:30:52 <Speeder> mtgox does not look that profitable anymroe
2140 2011-04-12 18:30:57 <sipa> ?
2141 2011-04-12 18:31:27 <dinox> sipa: lol
2142 2011-04-12 18:32:03 <Speeder> the difficulty is automatic?
2143 2011-04-12 18:32:04 uconco has joined
2144 2011-04-12 18:32:16 <dinox> Speeder: yep
2145 2011-04-12 18:32:17 <BlueMatt> yep
2146 2011-04-12 18:32:22 <lfm> dinox ya the whole net didnt hash as much as on 5970 does untill about july 2010
2147 2011-04-12 18:32:31 <lfm> dinox ya the whole net didnt hash as much as one 5970 does untill about july 2010
2148 2011-04-12 18:32:40 <dinox> lfm: hehe
2149 2011-04-12 18:33:08 <dinox> u would probably inc the difficulty a bit when entering with a 5970 then
2150 2011-04-12 18:33:15 <sipa> halfway july 2010 the network speed got multiplied by 10 in a few days time
2151 2011-04-12 18:33:31 <sipa> from 20 to 200 or so
2152 2011-04-12 18:33:40 <lfm> dinox: I saw when ArtForz turned one of his sets of 4 5970 onto the testnet, he was generating a block every 20 saec or so
2153 2011-04-12 18:33:42 <dinox> slashdot?
2154 2011-04-12 18:33:45 <BlueMatt> gpus
2155 2011-04-12 18:33:49 <Speeder> sipa because of introduction of stronger GPUs?
2156 2011-04-12 18:33:53 <BlueMatt> the first gpu miner was released
2157 2011-04-12 18:33:55 <Speeder> oh
2158 2011-04-12 18:33:57 <sipa> Speeder: no, because of /.
2159 2011-04-12 18:33:58 <BlueMatt> so people switched from cpus to gpus
2160 2011-04-12 18:34:02 <Speeder> the first OpenCL?
2161 2011-04-12 18:34:12 <sipa> first public opencl miner was a few months later
2162 2011-04-12 18:34:19 <Speeder> I wonder if the guy that develped it, how much money he got XD
2163 2011-04-12 18:34:24 <dinox> lfm: He has a fpga project now, right?
2164 2011-04-12 18:34:31 <BlueMatt> really? I thought it was the gpus
2165 2011-04-12 18:34:32 <BlueMatt> oh well
2166 2011-04-12 18:34:38 <Speeder> I mean, he could just leave it for a while before releasing and would quickly gobble several thousand BTC
2167 2011-04-12 18:34:42 <lfm> dinox actually they are asic not fpga
2168 2011-04-12 18:34:49 <BlueMatt> structured asics
2169 2011-04-12 18:34:52 <phantomcircuit> lfm, they're kind of both
2170 2011-04-12 18:35:05 <dinox> ok, fpga's only prototypes then?
2171 2011-04-12 18:35:23 <lfm> they are not field programmable
2172 2011-04-12 18:35:34 <dinox> aha
2173 2011-04-12 18:35:40 <sipa> structured asics, really
2174 2011-04-12 18:35:47 <lfm> they are masked at the fab
2175 2011-04-12 18:35:52 <dinox> but asic's are specialordered, taht would be superexpensive
2176 2011-04-12 18:35:54 <sipa> real asics cost a few orders of magnitude more
2177 2011-04-12 18:36:00 <lfm> dinox yup
2178 2011-04-12 18:36:07 <BlueMatt> structured asics are still expensive
2179 2011-04-12 18:36:20 <sipa> i believe his asics cost $200 to produce, do 200MH/s, and use 7W of power :)
2180 2011-04-12 18:36:28 <BlueMatt> AFAIK art was rich to begin with
2181 2011-04-12 18:36:33 <sipa> must be
2182 2011-04-12 18:36:35 <dinox> when bitcoins crosses the 1000$ mark, asics will be 100% worth it
2183 2011-04-12 18:36:39 <lfm> sipa and a minimum order of 100
2184 2011-04-12 18:36:57 <dinox> only 100?
2185 2011-04-12 18:37:08 <BlueMatt> iirc Art said he doesnt make much more on asics than gpus when you include the original cost
2186 2011-04-12 18:37:08 <dinox> i thought it was more like 100 000
2187 2011-04-12 18:37:15 <lfm> for structured asic ya i think thats what he said
2188 2011-04-12 18:37:30 <lfm> real asic is more like 10,000
2189 2011-04-12 18:37:32 <dinox> how many asics does he have running?
2190 2011-04-12 18:37:51 <lfm> dinox I think 128 or something
2191 2011-04-12 18:37:55 <dinox> omg
2192 2011-04-12 18:37:59 <[Tycho]> Up to 100, i suppose.
2193 2011-04-12 18:38:08 <dinox> 200GHash/s :)
2194 2011-04-12 18:38:09 <lfm> maybe 96
2195 2011-04-12 18:38:14 <sipa> maybe we can ask him
2196 2011-04-12 18:38:16 <dinox> ohohoh
2197 2011-04-12 18:38:18 <BlueMatt> ArtForz:
2198 2011-04-12 18:38:23 <dinox> no, 20 GHash :P
2199 2011-04-12 18:38:36 <lfm> ya but 96 chips or something
2200 2011-04-12 18:38:38 <BlueMatt> sounds about right
2201 2011-04-12 18:38:50 <dinox> ;;bc,gen 20000000
2202 2011-04-12 18:38:51 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 20000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 244.289569117 BTC per day and 10.1787320465 BTC per hour.
2203 2011-04-12 18:39:12 <dinox> 244 a day... not that bad
2204 2011-04-12 18:39:18 <BlueMatt> ~1/30th of all blocks
2205 2011-04-12 18:39:25 <lfm> ya he gets 4 or 5 blocks a day
2206 2011-04-12 18:39:30 <gavinandresen> jgarzik, sipa:  So sipa's patch makes startup take a while the first time 0.3.21 is run (gotta update all txns in wallet)...  I'm tempted to implement something like genjix' "start the rpc thread before loading wallet" change, just so bitcoind getinfo returns something while that is happening.
2207 2011-04-12 18:39:34 Furao has joined
2208 2011-04-12 18:40:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: only the first time is slow?
2209 2011-04-12 18:40:39 <gavinandresen> sipa:  yes, I think so.  I'll test to be sure.
2210 2011-04-12 18:40:41 TD_ has joined
2211 2011-04-12 18:40:41 <lfm> gavinandresen: and getworks dont time out
2212 2011-04-12 18:42:00 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2213 2011-04-12 18:43:11 <BlueMatt> I love how gavinandresen silences the channel when he gets us all on topic
2214 2011-04-12 18:44:06 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  I'm sanity-testing your upnp patch, by the way.  There are no known security holes in miniupnp, right?
2215 2011-04-12 18:45:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: afaik, no and googleing brings up nothing so
2216 2011-04-12 18:45:01 <lfm> other than some people claim upnp is its own security hole
2217 2011-04-12 18:45:25 <lfm> but we arnt changing that
2218 2011-04-12 18:45:53 Furao has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2219 2011-04-12 18:45:56 <gavinandresen> lfm:  it'll be turned off by default, but I'm planning on shipping binaries that link with miniupnpc and have a -upnp=1 option
2220 2011-04-12 18:46:14 <gavinandresen> (and the GUI checkbox to turn it on)
2221 2011-04-12 18:46:50 <lfm> ya seems reasonable, but who ever said the internet was reasonable
2222 2011-04-12 18:47:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: actually, there is hardly any specific code ran on first load
2223 2011-04-12 18:48:01 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ReacceptWalletTransactions is taking a long time on my test wallet
2224 2011-04-12 18:48:29 <lfm> is that the 500MB wallet?
2225 2011-04-12 18:48:54 <lfm> no i guess not, the faucet isnt on test
2226 2011-04-12 18:49:33 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2227 2011-04-12 18:49:43 OneFixt has joined
2228 2011-04-12 18:49:43 OneFixt has quit (Changing host)
2229 2011-04-12 18:49:43 OneFixt has joined
2230 2011-04-12 18:50:08 <gavinandresen> sipa:  hmm, and actually it is taking a long time again after a second run...
2231 2011-04-12 18:50:10 Furao has joined
2232 2011-04-12 18:50:33 <sipa> that's what i feared
2233 2011-04-12 18:51:15 <phantomcircuit> so i've just now realized the optimal solution for paying merchants
2234 2011-04-12 18:51:20 <phantomcircuit> it's actually pretty trivial
2235 2011-04-12 18:52:43 <lfm> phantomcircuit: so ...
2236 2011-04-12 18:52:49 <phantomcircuit> merchant generates random invoice id, buyer sends transactions with output script of HASH160, PUSH <HASH160 invoice ID>, EQUALVERIFY
2237 2011-04-12 18:53:03 <phantomcircuit> no demand on the merchant to generate new addresses
2238 2011-04-12 18:53:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: it used to loop over wallet transactactions, and skip them quickly after if it was already spent
2239 2011-04-12 18:53:13 <phantomcircuit> each invoice has it's own id
2240 2011-04-12 18:53:16 <sipa> now it needs to loop over all outputs separately
2241 2011-04-12 18:53:18 <phantomcircuit> and it would be *very* fast
2242 2011-04-12 18:53:38 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ugh
2243 2011-04-12 18:54:03 <sipa> wait a second
2244 2011-04-12 18:54:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: iirc there were good reasons to start RPC last.  One big one is that sites are not expecting a non-functional or half-functional RPC
2245 2011-04-12 18:54:12 <lfm> phantomcircuit: so how would the merchant (and only the merchant) spend those
2246 2011-04-12 18:54:37 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I argue that 'connection refused' is better than RPC that may or may not provide full functionality until <some time in the future>
2247 2011-04-12 18:54:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: websites shouldn't have to track and handle that condition
2248 2011-04-12 18:54:50 <phantomcircuit> lfm, script would just be PUSH <random invoice id>
2249 2011-04-12 18:55:58 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  but you can't tell if 'connection refused' means 'bitcoind dumped core during startup' or 'bitcoind is busy loading the wallet'
2250 2011-04-12 18:56:17 <lfm> phantomcircuit: and i could corrupt that for my own ends i think
2251 2011-04-12 18:56:38 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  not that bitcoind ever dumps core when I'm working on stuff, of course.....
2252 2011-04-12 18:56:40 <lfm> phantomcircuit: there is a reason a pukic key signature is used
2253 2011-04-12 18:56:43 <phantomcircuit> lfm, yeah i guess it would just be a rush to the finish
2254 2011-04-12 18:56:53 <lfm> race ya
2255 2011-04-12 18:57:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: there was a missing check in reacceptwallet transactions (seems i already got used to it being slower)
2256 2011-04-12 18:57:55 <gavinandresen> sipa:  excellent-- so easy fix?
2257 2011-04-12 18:57:56 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: quite true
2258 2011-04-12 18:58:06 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: but you have that condition _regardless of genjix' patch_
2259 2011-04-12 18:58:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: so all his patch (or something like it) does is create an additional program state, that of non-functional RPC
2260 2011-04-12 18:58:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  Hmm?  if the rpc thread accepted connections during startup and, oh, I dunno, returned HTTP BUSY (is there an BUSY HTTP status?) that'd be better....
2261 2011-04-12 18:59:02 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: why?
2262 2011-04-12 18:59:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: websites have to handle connection refused / bitcoind not there anyway
2263 2011-04-12 18:59:54 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: I don't see the utility, where this adds complications that the bitcoin code, and external website code, may be not prepared for early RPC
2264 2011-04-12 19:00:15 <jgarzik> the net result for the website is exactly the same
2265 2011-04-12 19:00:15 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: sure, but if I'm writing logic that is:  Startup bitcoin. Wait until it is done loading, then do something... I won't wait forever if startup fails.
2266 2011-04-12 19:00:18 <jgarzik> money no flow
2267 2011-04-12 19:00:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you can call bitcoin, can you not just ps | grep bitcoind?
2268 2011-04-12 19:01:07 <BlueMatt> and then know if its running or not
2269 2011-04-12 19:01:17 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: (1) who writes such logic?  websites don't start bitcoind on the fly.   (2) again, you have to handle that condition anyway, if bitcoin crashes without starting RPC
2270 2011-04-12 19:01:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt:  I typically run at least two bitcoinds on my machines, sometimes three or four....
2271 2011-04-12 19:01:45 <sipa> how many rpc calls are useful before bitcoin is fully initialized?
2272 2011-04-12 19:01:57 <sipa> read-only wallet things
2273 2011-04-12 19:02:01 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ah, well in any case that is a fairly small case...still could do some better grep magic to check which directory
2274 2011-04-12 19:02:05 <sipa> like inspecting address book
2275 2011-04-12 19:03:07 <sipa> gavinandresen: wow, you're right, never realized how much slow down it had caused - adding an extra check brought load time of a test setup here from 17s to 4s
2276 2011-04-12 19:04:24 <gavinandresen> jgarzik:  yeah, I probably have an irrational desire for the feature, because I'm constantly stopping/restarting bitcoinds.
2277 2011-04-12 19:04:56 <gavinandresen> I still think starting the rpc thread early and having it return a '503 Service Unavailable' would be nifty
2278 2011-04-12 19:05:08 <sipa> well, maybe it can be made configurable if some users have use for it
2279 2011-04-12 19:05:08 sabalaba has joined
2280 2011-04-12 19:05:19 <sipa> fastload=1 in the config fire or something like that
2281 2011-04-12 19:05:23 <jgarzik> no
2282 2011-04-12 19:05:28 <jgarzik> if you add it, add it unconditionally
2283 2011-04-12 19:05:46 <jgarzik> otherwise the (bleh) complexity becomes even worse
2284 2011-04-12 19:06:07 <sipa> the problem seems to be that the current rpc implicitly guarantees a fully functioning setup, so you break backward compatibility by starting rpc early
2285 2011-04-12 19:07:05 <tcatm> If such a feature is added, it should also check whether there are enough connections to other nodes and the blockchain is synchronized.
2286 2011-04-12 19:08:09 <BlueMatt> there is growing reason to overhaul the api interface (whether redoing rpc or using some other protocol)
2287 2011-04-12 19:08:38 <sethsethseth> who thinks it would be good to have a site where you could pledge to donate btc for features
2288 2011-04-12 19:08:50 <BlueMatt> there already is
2289 2011-04-12 19:08:57 <sethsethseth> where
2290 2011-04-12 19:09:07 skyewm has joined
2291 2011-04-12 19:09:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: it's just two lines added, you want a pull request?
2292 2011-04-12 19:09:31 <tcatm> sethsethseth: doesn't really help while the buglist is growing
2293 2011-04-12 19:09:56 <BlueMatt> sethsethseth: bitcoin.cz.cc
2294 2011-04-12 19:09:58 <sethsethseth> i see people doing it in individual threads right now, but i want it to be fast to browse and just click "donate 5btc" for x feature
2295 2011-04-12 19:09:59 <gavinandresen> sipa:  I'm about to run out the door, so either email me a patch or do a pull request, whichever is easier
2296 2011-04-12 19:10:25 <BlueMatt> Im still waiting for my 250 usd bounty for upnp ;)
2297 2011-04-12 19:10:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: done
2298 2011-04-12 19:11:15 <gavinandresen> Was there a upnp bounty?  I wasn't a big believer in bounties, although with bitcoin deflation they might actually make sense
2299 2011-04-12 19:11:21 <sethsethseth> ahh, so there needs to be some kind of reputation thing to make sure people follow through on the donation?
2300 2011-04-12 19:11:29 <BlueMatt> yea, I found out about it after I wrote the patch
2301 2011-04-12 19:11:37 dishwara has joined
2302 2011-04-12 19:11:37 <gavinandresen> ... or somebody should setup an escrow service that can handle bounties....
2303 2011-04-12 19:11:38 <BlueMatt> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3035.0
2304 2011-04-12 19:11:53 <TD_> bounties have to be incredibly well specified to make sense
2305 2011-04-12 19:11:59 <TD_> see the debates over the video bounty
2306 2011-04-12 19:12:00 <sethsethseth> right
2307 2011-04-12 19:12:12 <TD_> in the end i don't think all 13k coins were given away because every contributor had their own random conditions
2308 2011-04-12 19:12:15 <BlueMatt> he doesnt appear to be very active anymore, but maybe he'll come back after upnp gets merged
2309 2011-04-12 19:12:17 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2310 2011-04-12 19:12:28 <gavinandresen> .... or the escrow service lets a majority of participants decide if/when the bounty conditions have been met....  (yeah, I've been thinking about it)
2311 2011-04-12 19:12:41 <BlueMatt> who was it who runs the bitcoin.cc.cz site>
2312 2011-04-12 19:12:46 <Avemo> what's with mtgox volume and 518 users hit on forums.... was there another slashdotting or something?
2313 2011-04-12 19:12:47 <dishwara> hi
2314 2011-04-12 19:12:52 <sethsethseth> or a judge panel decides if conditions met
2315 2011-04-12 19:12:56 <dishwara> which channel is BTC pulse
2316 2011-04-12 19:13:10 <BlueMatt> dishwara: you mean -market or -watch>
2317 2011-04-12 19:13:45 <dishwara> http://www.api.bitcoinbulletin.com/
2318 2011-04-12 19:13:50 intel_ix has joined
2319 2011-04-12 19:14:07 <dishwara> i see BTC pulse & this chat there
2320 2011-04-12 19:14:12 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
2321 2011-04-12 19:14:31 <BlueMatt> ah, so you mean the widget, I think its just dev
2322 2011-04-12 19:15:08 <dishwara> seems gavinandresen adding many thing in real & virtual
2323 2011-04-12 19:16:17 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I think genjix runs bitcoin.cc.cz
2324 2011-04-12 19:16:29 newb_ has joined
2325 2011-04-12 19:16:56 <BlueMatt> was genjix interested in doing escrow on the site? I think Ive seen him talk about it in the past but I dont remember
2326 2011-04-12 19:17:01 <sethsethseth> oh does he? good, seems like he is getting a lot done lately
2327 2011-04-12 19:17:21 <gavinandresen> catch y'all later, gotta run
2328 2011-04-12 19:17:27 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2329 2011-04-12 19:18:31 newb_ has quit (Client Quit)
2330 2011-04-12 19:18:52 max has joined
2331 2011-04-12 19:18:57 max is now known as Guest12339
2332 2011-04-12 19:20:32 Guest12339 is now known as scoots
2333 2011-04-12 19:22:58 <scoots> What is pooled mining?
2334 2011-04-12 19:24:48 <mtrlt> you cooperate with others and everyone gets a share when someone in the pool finds a block
2335 2011-04-12 19:26:52 <scoots> Is that a good idea or is it better to mine yourself? Medium rig
2336 2011-04-12 19:27:09 <luke-jr> scoots: how many MH/s?
2337 2011-04-12 19:27:22 <mtrlt> if under 1000 Mhash/sec, i'd say it's better to be in a pool
2338 2011-04-12 19:27:37 <mtrlt> you can try your luck, though :-)
2339 2011-04-12 19:27:57 <luke-jr> mtrlt: IIRC it's about 280 MH/s now
2340 2011-04-12 19:28:05 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 280000
2341 2011-04-12 19:28:06 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 280000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 52 minutes, and 17 seconds
2342 2011-04-12 19:28:15 <mtrlt> for me, 2 weeks is way too long :)
2343 2011-04-12 19:28:26 <mtrlt> ;;bc,calc 1000000
2344 2011-04-12 19:28:27 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 4 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 38 seconds
2345 2011-04-12 19:30:06 <dishwara> ;;bc, calc 250000
2346 2011-04-12 19:30:07 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
2347 2011-04-12 19:30:23 <dishwara> ;;bc,calc 250000
2348 2011-04-12 19:30:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 250000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 58 minutes, and 34 seconds
2349 2011-04-12 19:31:07 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 300000
2350 2011-04-12 19:31:08 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 300000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1 week, 6 days, 15 hours, 28 minutes, and 48 seconds
2351 2011-04-12 19:31:12 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 290000
2352 2011-04-12 19:31:13 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 290000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 2 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes, and 21 seconds
2353 2011-04-12 19:31:18 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 295000
2354 2011-04-12 19:31:19 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 295000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 1 week, 6 days, 21 hours, 1 minute, and 50 seconds
2355 2011-04-12 19:31:26 <luke-jr> meh, about 291 MH/s
2356 2011-04-12 19:31:44 <luke-jr> mtrlt: 2 weeks is the point where a pool might become more efficient
2357 2011-04-12 19:31:54 <mtrlt> hm
2358 2011-04-12 19:31:56 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 295000
2359 2011-04-12 19:31:57 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 295000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 3.60327114447 BTC per day and 0.150136297686 BTC per hour.
2360 2011-04-12 19:32:23 <luke-jr> since you'd only be getting 50 BTC per difficulty from the pool, and you're likely to get that self-mining anyway
2361 2011-04-12 19:32:25 <luke-jr> not considering fees
2362 2011-04-12 19:32:33 <luke-jr> with fees, it might be up to 300 MH/s
2363 2011-04-12 19:33:48 <robblesz> hm, what does gribble's "average time" mean? It's not simply "50% chance", is it?
2364 2011-04-12 19:34:06 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2365 2011-04-12 19:34:08 <mtrlt> average time in which you get the 50 BTC
2366 2011-04-12 19:34:29 <mtrlt> and yes, it's different than 50% chance
2367 2011-04-12 19:35:31 <Blitzboom> i still don’t understand the difference
2368 2011-04-12 19:35:51 <sipa> robblesz: imagine you have 25% chance of it taking 1 minute, 50% chance of it taking 2 minutes, and 25% chance of it taking 4 minutes
2369 2011-04-12 19:35:57 uconco has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2370 2011-04-12 19:36:08 <robblesz> Yeah
2371 2011-04-12 19:36:15 <Blitzboom> right … why wouldn’t the average be 50% there?
2372 2011-04-12 19:36:31 <sipa> on average, it will take 0.25*1+0.5*2+0.5*4 = 3.25 minutes
2373 2011-04-12 19:36:46 <sipa> 2.25, excuse me
2374 2011-04-12 19:36:48 <sipa> agree?
2375 2011-04-12 19:37:01 <robblesz> I'm with you so far
2376 2011-04-12 19:37:27 <Blitzboom> why 0.5*4?
2377 2011-04-12 19:37:33 <Blitzboom> it should be 0.25*4
2378 2011-04-12 19:37:33 <sipa> damn
2379 2011-04-12 19:37:35 <sipa> yes
2380 2011-04-12 19:37:37 <Blitzboom> :D
2381 2011-04-12 19:37:39 <sipa> math fail
2382 2011-04-12 19:37:48 <sipa> anyway, the calculation is right
2383 2011-04-12 19:37:57 <sipa> now, to know the 50% chance number
2384 2011-04-12 19:38:16 <sipa> you would need to fine a duration for which holds that 50% of the time, it's lower, and 50% of the time it's higher
2385 2011-04-12 19:38:16 <Blitzboom> so 2.25 because of the exponential shift to higher time?
2386 2011-04-12 19:38:33 <sipa> yes, in general, because of assymmetry
2387 2011-04-12 19:38:58 <Blitzboom> still hard to grasp it intuitively
2388 2011-04-12 19:39:13 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2389 2011-04-12 19:39:19 <Blitzboom> thanks for explaining
2390 2011-04-12 19:39:25 <robblesz> hm
2391 2011-04-12 19:39:26 <sipa> actually, turn it into 49.9995% chance for 1 minute, 0.001% for 2 minutes, 49.9995% for 4 minutes
2392 2011-04-12 19:39:47 <sipa> the 50% mark is obviously at 2 minutes here - half of the time it will be more, half of the time it will be less
2393 2011-04-12 19:39:56 <sipa> though the average is 2.5 minutes
2394 2011-04-12 19:40:14 agricocb has joined
2395 2011-04-12 19:43:19 <robblesz> sipa: here's my attempt to calculate average hashrate for my pool. Can you take a quick look? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LdVLVmMF
2396 2011-04-12 19:43:28 Poopsie has joined
2397 2011-04-12 19:44:00 <sipa> what is "actual client hash rate" ?
2398 2011-04-12 19:44:14 <robblesz> it's the rate that was displayed in my miner
2399 2011-04-12 19:44:26 alystair has joined
2400 2011-04-12 19:44:37 <sipa> and what are you calculating?
2401 2011-04-12 19:44:46 <robblesz> hashes/s
2402 2011-04-12 19:45:00 <sipa> 17.7MHash/s = 17700000 hashes/s
2403 2011-04-12 19:45:37 <robblesz> Well yeah, but my server doesn't have access to the client's rate. I'm trying to calculate the hashrate without that information
2404 2011-04-12 19:46:02 <robblesz> so basically, all I know is shares per second
2405 2011-04-12 19:46:31 <robblesz> Sorry, trying to calculate average hashrate. Do you think I'm doing it right?
2406 2011-04-12 19:46:35 <sipa> no
2407 2011-04-12 19:46:56 <sipa> X shares per second = 2^48/65535*difficulty*X hashes per second
2408 2011-04-12 19:47:14 <sipa> why the log?
2409 2011-04-12 19:47:48 <robblesz> I saw a post that said "To calculate how long until you have a T chance of producing at least 1 block, use -ln(1-T)/pr"
2410 2011-04-12 19:48:04 <sipa> yes
2411 2011-04-12 19:48:07 <sipa> at least one block
2412 2011-04-12 19:48:13 <sipa> what you need is on average one block
2413 2011-04-12 19:48:21 <sipa> and that's far easier to calculate
2414 2011-04-12 19:48:33 <robblesz> Oh :O
2415 2011-04-12 19:48:48 <robblesz> let me try your "X shares per second = 2^48/65535*difficulty*X hashes per second" formula
2416 2011-04-12 19:48:50 <Lycurgus> the mac client doesn't seem to operate properly if it's running on an interior node of a LAN
2417 2011-04-12 19:49:06 <sipa> robblesz: difficulty being 1 in that formula of course
2418 2011-04-12 19:49:07 <Lycurgus> guess you have to forward its port
2419 2011-04-12 19:49:13 <sipa> if you're talking about pool shares
2420 2011-04-12 19:49:22 <robblesz> sipa: yeah, difficulty 1
2421 2011-04-12 19:49:24 <gasteve> my mac client seems fine
2422 2011-04-12 19:49:35 Furao has left ("Leaving")
2423 2011-04-12 19:49:45 <Lycurgus> gasteve, is it directly connected to the internet?
2424 2011-04-12 19:50:08 <gasteve> only through NAT and I don't have the 8333 port forwarded to it
2425 2011-04-12 19:50:47 <gasteve> what seems to be the problem?
2426 2011-04-12 19:51:07 lyspooner has joined
2427 2011-04-12 19:51:53 <Lycurgus> not connected
2428 2011-04-12 19:51:59 Spenvo has joined
2429 2011-04-12 19:53:33 <robblesz> sipa: wow, that formula seems to work!
2430 2011-04-12 19:53:41 <robblesz> yay
2431 2011-04-12 19:53:44 Corey__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2432 2011-04-12 19:53:51 scoots has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
2433 2011-04-12 19:56:30 <Lycurgus> and the only port this app mentions is 9050
2434 2011-04-12 19:58:25 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2435 2011-04-12 19:59:14 alystair has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2440 2011-04-12 20:06:08 <Lycurgus> the windows version doesn't have the problem but it's a later build
2441 2011-04-12 20:09:42 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2442 2011-04-12 20:10:13 fimp has joined
2443 2011-04-12 20:12:24 drk_ghost has joined
2444 2011-04-12 20:12:43 <Lycurgus> looks like the mac version builds with macports
2445 2011-04-12 20:12:53 scoots has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
2446 2011-04-12 20:13:29 <gasteve> I have noticed that it can take a long time to establish connections...but it eventually does
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2448 2011-04-12 20:14:45 drk_ghost is now known as Dark_Ghost
2449 2011-04-12 20:14:55 <nanotube> gasteve: i notice connections are faster when you do it with -noirc
2450 2011-04-12 20:15:44 <lyspooner> how many asics on the network, anyone know?
2451 2011-04-12 20:16:54 <BlueMatt> lyspooner: ArtForz is it afaik
2452 2011-04-12 20:17:32 <lyspooner> any forum threads about his plans, specs etc?
2453 2011-04-12 20:17:52 <Lycurgus> gasteve, yeah and if you terminate before it has retrieved all the blocks becomes unresponsive/won't restart (on windows)
2454 2011-04-12 20:21:17 <gasteve> that's not good
2455 2011-04-12 20:21:21 <Lycurgus> appears to work best on linux
2456 2011-04-12 20:21:55 <gasteve> I have also noticed that it takes a lot longer to catch up to the latest blocks after being shut down (even for just a few hours) than I would like
2457 2011-04-12 20:21:56 Stonetz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2458 2011-04-12 20:22:27 <gasteve> (all little nits that are likely to frustrate users...particularly newbies)
2459 2011-04-12 20:22:55 <Lycurgus> so andresen and nakamoto are the same person
2460 2011-04-12 20:23:19 dishwara has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
2461 2011-04-12 20:23:26 * Lycurgus is not frustrated, I've been an IT worker for 4 decades
2462 2011-04-12 20:24:04 dishwara has joined
2463 2011-04-12 20:24:23 <edcba> 4 decades ?!
2464 2011-04-12 20:25:10 <Lycurgus> well not quite but close
2465 2011-04-12 20:25:11 <edcba> you were a friend of babbage ? :)
2466 2011-04-12 20:25:16 <lyspooner> did they even have a T four decades ago?
2467 2011-04-12 20:25:28 <Lycurgus> no, but my first program was on punched cards
2468 2011-04-12 20:25:55 <edcba> you know some ppl doesn't even know what is a floppy disk...
2469 2011-04-12 20:27:05 Lachesis has joined
2470 2011-04-12 20:27:07 Lachesis has quit (Changing host)
2471 2011-04-12 20:27:07 Lachesis has joined
2472 2011-04-12 20:28:03 <gasteve> edcba: that's funny to think about
2473 2011-04-12 20:28:16 <gasteve> eventually, people won't know what a disk is
2474 2011-04-12 20:29:02 <gasteve> (aside from HDD, I've almost eradicated any form of disk from my life)
2475 2011-04-12 20:30:10 <Lycurgus> and now ur happy, huh
2476 2011-04-12 20:30:56 <BlueMatt> itl be ssd eventually
2477 2011-04-12 20:31:01 <BlueMatt> no more spinning disks
2478 2011-04-12 20:31:05 <gasteve> exactly
2479 2011-04-12 20:31:40 taco_the_paco has joined
2480 2011-04-12 20:31:55 * Lycurgus won't miss physical/rotating disks.
2481 2011-04-12 20:32:06 <gasteve> the physics and ultimately the economics favor physically rotating disks
2482 2011-04-12 20:32:26 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's gonna be a while before SSDs are cheaper /GB
2483 2011-04-12 20:32:39 <BlueMatt> yea, but it will happen eventually
2484 2011-04-12 20:32:40 <gasteve> (I meant *don't favor*)
2485 2011-04-12 20:32:40 <nanotube> the physics favors stone tablets.
2486 2011-04-12 20:32:45 <nanotube> at least durability-wise :D
2487 2011-04-12 20:32:53 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, could be a lonnnnng time
2488 2011-04-12 20:32:57 <phantomcircuit> like 10 years
2489 2011-04-12 20:33:29 <BlueMatt> yea, but still will happen
2490 2011-04-12 20:34:08 <gasteve> nanotube: I'm talking energy, density and speed wise
2491 2011-04-12 20:34:19 <BlueMatt> the physics favor ssds highly when you take into account speed
2492 2011-04-12 20:34:26 <BlueMatt> just not the current tech
2493 2011-04-12 20:34:42 <nanotube> gasteve: heh yea, i was just trying to be amusing
2494 2011-04-12 20:35:08 <Lycurgus> 10 years is not that long once your perception of time picks up
2495 2011-04-12 20:35:14 <gasteve> anything that requires moving solid matter is going to eventually lose out
2496 2011-04-12 20:36:18 <Lycurgus> reads to first 80K blocks and the last 40 or so slow apparently
2497 2011-04-12 20:36:22 <Lycurgus> *the first
2498 2011-04-12 20:36:33 <Lycurgus> *blocks fast
2499 2011-04-12 20:38:36 Gluskab has joined
2500 2011-04-12 20:40:00 skyewm has joined
2501 2011-04-12 20:40:00 fimp has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2502 2011-04-12 20:40:13 <luke-jr> Lycurgus: in 10 years, my youngest will be 10!
2503 2011-04-12 20:40:27 fimp has joined
2504 2011-04-12 20:41:02 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: congrats on the birth today in that case
2505 2011-04-12 20:41:36 <Lycurgus> ditto
2506 2011-04-12 20:42:15 <BlueMatt> and seriously dont you have something better to do today than be on irc?
2507 2011-04-12 20:42:43 <lyspooner> the thing is probably asleep\
2508 2011-04-12 20:43:11 <Lycurgus> thing is the wrong worg lyspooner
2509 2011-04-12 20:43:15 <Lycurgus> *word
2510 2011-04-12 20:43:19 <sipa> luke-jr: which number base? :p
2511 2011-04-12 20:43:49 <Lycurgus> (without an appropriate adjective, like 'the dear little thing')
2512 2011-04-12 20:44:00 <luke-jr> sipa: whichever he was using
2513 2011-04-12 20:44:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: she wasn't born today.
2514 2011-04-12 20:44:21 <lyspooner> is she zero or an?
2515 2011-04-12 20:44:21 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: well congrats on the recent birth in any case
2516 2011-04-12 20:44:31 <luke-jr> lyspooner: noll.
2517 2011-04-12 20:44:34 <lyspooner> oh yeah
2518 2011-04-12 20:44:47 <lyspooner> when is her anth birthday
2519 2011-04-12 20:44:57 <luke-jr> plus 8 tonal months
2520 2011-04-12 20:44:57 <lyspooner> and by the way, what day is today?
2521 2011-04-12 20:45:29 <Lycurgus> 12 Blossom, 4709 公元
2522 2011-04-12 20:45:32 <luke-jr> she will be 1 on Lamboary 4
2523 2011-04-12 20:45:38 <lyspooner> lol
2524 2011-04-12 20:45:43 <luke-jr> today is Suvenary 17
2525 2011-04-12 20:45:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: dates for normal humans?
2526 2011-04-12 20:46:26 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: Sep 24 Gregorian calendar
2527 2011-04-12 20:46:34 <luke-jr> I presume you know today in your own calendar
2528 2011-04-12 20:46:57 <BlueMatt> that I do know
2529 2011-04-12 20:47:48 <Lycurgus> are old blocks modified?
2530 2011-04-12 20:48:08 <BlueMatt> no, never
2531 2011-04-12 20:48:29 Xunie has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2532 2011-04-12 20:48:45 <Lycurgus> then why isn't a file just created with a base set and a signature for them?
2533 2011-04-12 20:49:11 <luke-jr> ANuary, DEbrian, TImander, GOstus, SUvenary, BYlian, RAtamber, MEsudius, NIctoary, KOlumbian, HUsamber, VYctorious, LAmboary, POlian, FYlander, TONborious
2534 2011-04-12 20:49:15 jroot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2535 2011-04-12 20:49:15 <luke-jr> yay for beauty of Tonal
2536 2011-04-12 20:49:17 <sipa> luke-jr: ?
2537 2011-04-12 20:49:23 <luke-jr> sipa: months
2538 2011-04-12 20:49:30 <sipa> oh, i mean:
2539 2011-04-12 20:49:32 <sipa> Lycurgus: ?
2540 2011-04-12 20:49:35 <luke-jr> lol
2541 2011-04-12 20:50:00 <lyspooner> FYlander SPooner
2542 2011-04-12 20:50:09 gat3way has joined
2543 2011-04-12 20:50:10 <Lycurgus> sipa, in the gui client when it loads.
2544 2011-04-12 20:50:43 <Lycurgus> or any client FTM
2545 2011-04-12 20:50:47 <gat3way> hello *
2546 2011-04-12 20:50:56 <Lachesis> hey strange bug in the gui bitcoin in ubuntu 11.04 beta 1
2547 2011-04-12 20:51:02 <sipa> Lycurgus: i don't see what problem you want to solve?
2548 2011-04-12 20:51:02 <Lycurgus> yello gat3way
2549 2011-04-12 20:51:16 <Lachesis> whenever i click Address Book or Send Coins, the UI freezes
2550 2011-04-12 20:51:19 <Lachesis> the button clicks respond and stuff
2551 2011-04-12 20:51:21 <Lachesis> but nothing pops up
2552 2011-04-12 20:51:32 <Lachesis> and i can't re-minimize it
2553 2011-04-12 20:51:37 <Lycurgus> sipa, the time spent retrieving the unchanging old blocks.
2554 2011-04-12 20:51:41 <gat3way> can someone point me to a decent protocol description (including that notorious getwork command and wth the "data" really contains)?
2555 2011-04-12 20:51:45 <sipa> Lycurgus: retrieving doesn't take time
2556 2011-04-12 20:51:50 <sipa> Lycurgus: verifying does
2557 2011-04-12 20:51:55 <Lycurgus> i c
2558 2011-04-12 20:52:11 <luke-jr> gat3way: which protocol? :P
2559 2011-04-12 20:52:11 <Lycurgus> then why do the first 80K go so fast?
2560 2011-04-12 20:52:12 <Lachesis> is spesmillo usable now days?
2561 2011-04-12 20:52:15 <luke-jr> Lachesis: very
2562 2011-04-12 20:52:20 <sipa> Lycurgus: very few transactions in those
2563 2011-04-12 20:52:22 <luke-jr> Lachesis: I use it alone
2564 2011-04-12 20:52:23 <Lachesis> anyone besides the project author? :)
2565 2011-04-12 20:52:33 <Lycurgus> sipa, ah.
2566 2011-04-12 20:52:36 <Lachesis> luke-jr, what's the git url again?
2567 2011-04-12 20:52:39 <luke-jr> Lachesis: I'm not the original author :P
2568 2011-04-12 20:52:47 <luke-jr> git://gitorious.org/bitcoin/spesmilo.git
2569 2011-04-12 20:52:49 <Lachesis> ty
2570 2011-04-12 20:52:59 <luke-jr> Lachesis: make local && make && ./spesmilo
2571 2011-04-12 20:53:01 Xunie has joined
2572 2011-04-12 20:53:02 <luke-jr> optionally make install
2573 2011-04-12 20:53:12 <BlueMatt> Lycurgus: if you want the blockchain, bitcoin.bluematt.me has an up-to-date copy (if you trust me)
2574 2011-04-12 20:53:14 <gat3way> well I guess that would be the 1.1 version of the bitcoin protocol
2575 2011-04-12 20:53:16 <luke-jr> (to install bitcoin: URI handler you need to tell it where your KDE is installed)
2576 2011-04-12 20:53:26 <luke-jr> gat3way: there is no 1.1 anything
2577 2011-04-12 20:53:29 <luke-jr> or even 1.0
2578 2011-04-12 20:54:10 <luke-jr> Lachesis: (or if you use Gentoo, just emerge it)
2579 2011-04-12 20:54:18 <jgarzik> gat3way: presumably, you are referring to the ancillary JSON-RPC protocol?  getwork method's data member is a bitcoin block header.  The block header has a very specific data layout, as set in the bitcoin source code.
2580 2011-04-12 20:54:27 <jgarzik> CBlock
2581 2011-04-12 20:54:48 <Lycurgus> BlueMatt, thx, can wait, linux client is almost done
2582 2011-04-12 20:54:56 <gat3way> yeah, that was the thing I could not understand well
2583 2011-04-12 20:54:57 <luke-jr> Lachesis: make install KDESERVICEDIR=/usr/share/kde4/services # to get bitcoin: URI support in KDE
2584 2011-04-12 20:55:08 <gat3way> obviously it contains several values concatenated
2585 2011-04-12 20:55:10 <Lachesis> using gnome
2586 2011-04-12 20:55:20 <luke-jr> no idea how you'd do it in GNOME :/
2587 2011-04-12 20:55:22 <gat3way> but I am unable to find some decent documentation on that anywhere
2588 2011-04-12 20:55:33 <Lachesis> luke-jr, alright
2589 2011-04-12 20:55:38 <luke-jr> FDO has failed to standardize URI handlers thus far
2590 2011-04-12 20:55:40 <Lachesis> never seen bitcoin: urls anyway
2591 2011-04-12 20:55:43 <jgarzik> gat3way: bitcoin source code.  You must understand C/C++ data structures, to understand the contents
2592 2011-04-12 20:55:59 <Lachesis> hmm it doesn't give the account / address name next to addresses
2593 2011-04-12 20:56:07 <gat3way> jgarzik: thanks
2594 2011-04-12 20:56:08 <Lachesis> i.e. says "received to 12SX..."
2595 2011-04-12 20:56:17 tg has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2596 2011-04-12 20:56:18 <luke-jr> Lachesis: Spesmilo does not support accounts/labels presently.
2597 2011-04-12 20:56:21 <Lachesis> instead of "received to 12SX... (Mining Income)"
2598 2011-04-12 20:56:22 <Lachesis> why?
2599 2011-04-12 20:56:24 <gat3way> I am thinking of writing a OpenCL miner actually
2600 2011-04-12 20:56:39 <luke-jr> Lachesis: not sure the best way to make it in a GUI
2601 2011-04-12 20:56:42 <gat3way> with some nice features like patching BFI_INT and some algo optimizations
2602 2011-04-12 20:56:59 <jgarzik> gat3way: wanna make some money?  http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4618.0
2603 2011-04-12 20:57:05 <luke-jr> Lachesis: plus, I rarely use it
2604 2011-04-12 20:57:21 tg has joined
2605 2011-04-12 20:57:23 <gat3way> but I am still quite fresh in the bitcoin world, there are lots of things I still don't understant
2606 2011-04-12 20:57:28 <luke-jr> Lachesis: patches welcome :D
2607 2011-04-12 20:57:31 <jgarzik> gat3way: the first truly open source miner.  you may include BFI_INT optimizations there etc.
2608 2011-04-12 20:57:37 <jgarzik> gat3way: probably easier than direct binary patching
2609 2011-04-12 20:58:01 <gat3way> well I already have a codebase, because I am coding a GPU hash cracker
2610 2011-04-12 20:58:21 <gat3way> the bitcoin mining stuff is something I became interested in some days ago
2611 2011-04-12 20:58:31 <gat3way> I guess I need to learn lots of stuff though
2612 2011-04-12 20:58:55 <gat3way> the wiki wasn't very much helpful though :(
2613 2011-04-12 20:59:05 sabalaba has joined
2614 2011-04-12 20:59:27 <luke-jr> Lachesis: also, if you speak an unsupported language, I can email you strings for translation
2615 2011-04-12 21:00:07 tenach has quit (Quit: leaving)
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2618 2011-04-12 21:00:29 tenach has joined
2619 2011-04-12 21:01:22 <jgarzik> gat3way: there are plenty of opencl miners already
2620 2011-04-12 21:01:44 <jgarzik> gat3way: poclbm, oclminer, puddinpop's, solar's, ...
2621 2011-04-12 21:01:48 <gat3way> I guess so
2622 2011-04-12 21:01:56 zenfoo has joined
2623 2011-04-12 21:02:07 <Lachesis> solar has his own miner now?
2624 2011-04-12 21:02:12 <jgarzik> gat3way: FOSS miner would be faster (because you're coding straight ATI asm, and can easily use BFI_INT)
2625 2011-04-12 21:02:12 <Lachesis> what does it do that poclbm doesn't?
2626 2011-04-12 21:02:19 <jgarzik> Lachesis: solar's was first, before the others
2627 2011-04-12 21:02:21 <gat3way> no
2628 2011-04-12 21:02:24 <gat3way> mine is opencl-based
2629 2011-04-12 21:02:27 <Lachesis> jgarzik, ah ok
2630 2011-04-12 21:02:34 <gat3way> nevertheless I patch BFI_INT on-the-fly
2631 2011-04-12 21:02:52 <jgarzik> gat3way: nod.  it's easier to do that, when you are programmatically generating asm.
2632 2011-04-12 21:02:56 <gat3way> replace amd_bytealign with that
2633 2011-04-12 21:03:05 da2ceZzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2634 2011-04-12 21:03:26 <Lycurgus> i take it after it has retrieved all the blocks the gui will eventually update with no of transactions and a listing
2635 2011-04-12 21:03:31 da2ceZzzz has joined
2636 2011-04-12 21:03:39 <gat3way> well, BFI_INT is not exposed at IL level and coding straight ISA is kinda problematic after sdk 2.2
2637 2011-04-12 21:04:06 <jgarzik> "Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Gavin Andresen under pseudonym Satoshi Nakamoto."
2638 2011-04-12 21:04:08 <jgarzik> WTF???
2639 2011-04-12 21:04:16 <jgarzik> FAIL
2640 2011-04-12 21:04:23 <BlueMatt> who wrote that?
2641 2011-04-12 21:04:33 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
2642 2011-04-12 21:04:36 <luke-jr> WTF
2643 2011-04-12 21:04:48 <Lycurgus> wan't me
2644 2011-04-12 21:05:25 <Lycurgus> although I thought that was the case (not the date, the identity fact)
2645 2011-04-12 21:06:07 <Kiba> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/208.180.122.160
2646 2011-04-12 21:06:14 <jgarzik> Lycurgus: nope
2647 2011-04-12 21:06:46 <Lycurgus> Satoshi Nakamoto is a real person and Andresen is just an advocate/implementer?
2648 2011-04-12 21:07:10 <luke-jr> Satoshi implemented it
2649 2011-04-12 21:07:12 <BlueMatt> the address change needs to be fixed as well
2650 2011-04-12 21:07:15 <jgarzik> Lycurgus: satoshi implemented it
2651 2011-04-12 21:07:19 <luke-jr> Andresen is just a hijacker! :P
2652 2011-04-12 21:07:23 <sipa> i changed the page
2653 2011-04-12 21:07:34 <Kiba> well
2654 2011-04-12 21:07:35 <Kiba> this guy
2655 2011-04-12 21:07:44 <Lycurgus> an enterepreneuial parasite?
2656 2011-04-12 21:07:50 <Kiba> the IP I showed
2657 2011-04-12 21:07:51 mtrlt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2658 2011-04-12 21:08:03 mtrlt has joined
2659 2011-04-12 21:08:13 <jgarzik> gavin is a skilled developer, that's why the community consensus agrees with him as lead developer in satoshi's absence
2660 2011-04-12 21:08:23 <jgarzik> and really, satoshi sucks at project / people management
2661 2011-04-12 21:08:36 <Kiba> how so?
2662 2011-04-12 21:08:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: that was a joke
2663 2011-04-12 21:09:07 <jgarzik> luke-jr: was responding to Lycurgus
2664 2011-04-12 21:10:01 <BlueMatt> satoshi still responds to email
2665 2011-04-12 21:10:11 <Lycurgus> i c
2666 2011-04-12 21:10:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: doesn't mean he isn't Gavin
2667 2011-04-12 21:10:45 <Lycurgus> the truth will out, eventually
2668 2011-04-12 21:10:50 <BlueMatt> true, but it should be stated on wikipedia
2669 2011-04-12 21:11:01 <luke-jr> hmm
2670 2011-04-12 21:11:07 <Lycurgus> not even important at this point
2671 2011-04-12 21:11:08 <Kiba> it should be said, anonymous developer Satoshi Nakamoto
2672 2011-04-12 21:11:12 <luke-jr> an earlier change on Wikipedia had a citation for this claim
2673 2011-04-12 21:11:23 <luke-jr> citing Gavin's forum profile page
2674 2011-04-12 21:11:30 <luke-jr> I wonder what it might have said April 4
2675 2011-04-12 21:11:51 <luke-jr> then again, it looks like this IP only does vandalism
2676 2011-04-12 21:12:17 <Lycurgus> doesn the client UI do something after it's retrieved all the blocks?
2677 2011-04-12 21:12:57 <Lycurgus> 't
2678 2011-04-12 21:12:59 <luke-jr> Lycurgus: there's always more blocks
2679 2011-04-12 21:13:05 <Kiba> hmm
2680 2011-04-12 21:13:07 <BlueMatt> there changed the example address to a real address that is invalid, not one which belongs to someone
2681 2011-04-12 21:13:10 <Kiba> wikipedia used to be debated a lot
2682 2011-04-12 21:13:22 <Kiba> now it's just in the background
2683 2011-04-12 21:13:24 <Lycurgus> ok, when it's caught up then
2684 2011-04-12 21:13:31 <luke-jr> Kiba: because nobody takes it seriously anymore
2685 2011-04-12 21:13:41 <BlueMatt> yea pretty much
2686 2011-04-12 21:13:46 <Kiba> what that supposed to mean?
2687 2011-04-12 21:13:47 <sipa> Lycurgus: then it will look for transactions to your address
2688 2011-04-12 21:13:47 <Lycurgus> i expected a listing of all the blocks or sumthin
2689 2011-04-12 21:13:48 scoots has joined
2690 2011-04-12 21:13:50 <Kiba> I still use wikipedia
2691 2011-04-12 21:13:55 <sipa> and allow you to spend them
2692 2011-04-12 21:13:59 <BlueMatt> wikipedia needs to be more restrictive on how quickly something can be changed
2693 2011-04-12 21:14:17 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2694 2011-04-12 21:14:18 <Lycurgus> sipa, thanks, yeah I just had the one from whosits wasted on the busted Mac client
2695 2011-04-12 21:14:21 <BlueMatt> Kiba: I still use it, but it has become terrible for ease-of-abuse
2696 2011-04-12 21:14:31 <luke-jr> Kiba: it's just as biased as any other encyclopedia, and has non-expert contributors
2697 2011-04-12 21:15:10 Spenvo has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
2698 2011-04-12 21:15:33 <Lycurgus> yeah that's what scholarpedia is for
2699 2011-04-12 21:15:39 <Kiba> English Wikipedia suffers from beaucracies and users with an axe to grind
2700 2011-04-12 21:17:11 scoots has quit (Client Quit)
2701 2011-04-12 21:17:26 <Lycurgus> and a general regression to the mean as my streit over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Emperor shows.
2702 2011-04-12 21:18:24 <Lycurgus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face has maintained the lede and general structure I gave it though for a long time as have some others
2703 2011-04-12 21:18:39 <Lycurgus> *Streit
2704 2011-04-12 21:18:55 <hozer> or citizendium ;)
2705 2011-04-12 21:19:21 <Kiba> an ATI 5970 can do about 600 MH right?
2706 2011-04-12 21:19:48 <sipa> yes, OCed even more
2707 2011-04-12 21:20:03 <Kiba> how much we're talking about?
2708 2011-04-12 21:20:05 <sipa> i do 1260MH/s with 2 5970's
2709 2011-04-12 21:20:30 <sipa> and i believe people can go even higher with theirs
2710 2011-04-12 21:20:39 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
2711 2011-04-12 21:22:31 gavinandresen has joined
2712 2011-04-12 21:23:10 <Kiba> hmm
2713 2011-04-12 21:23:17 <Kiba> heavy resistance at .90 USD level
2714 2011-04-12 21:23:55 <Lycurgus> hmm, the Mac client works upon restart, musta just been the first invocation after install that's a dud
2715 2011-04-12 21:24:47 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2716 2011-04-12 21:25:19 <Lycurgus> so neither andresen nor nakamoto frequent this channel?
2717 2011-04-12 21:25:30 <Blitzboom> gavin does
2718 2011-04-12 21:25:39 <jgarzik> gavin just joined, scroll up
2719 2011-04-12 21:25:41 <Kiba> never saw nakamoto frequent this channel
2720 2011-04-12 21:25:57 <gavinandresen> yeah, I'm here sometimes
2721 2011-04-12 21:25:58 <Lycurgus> do see the nick,
2722 2011-04-12 21:26:02 lyspooner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2723 2011-04-12 21:27:00 <Lycurgus> .
2724 2011-04-12 21:27:07 noagendamarket has joined
2725 2011-04-12 21:27:07 noagendamarket has quit (Changing host)
2726 2011-04-12 21:27:07 noagendamarket has joined
2727 2011-04-12 21:27:11 * Kiba is currently looking for works
2728 2011-04-12 21:27:13 <Kiba> noagendamarket: hey
2729 2011-04-12 21:27:14 <Blitzboom> Kiba: you call 4k USD heavy resistance?
2730 2011-04-12 21:27:25 <jgarzik> but are any of us really _here_?
2731 2011-04-12 21:27:35 <Kiba> it will take 20 K USD to clear .90
2732 2011-04-12 21:27:41 <sipa> what is "real"? how do you define "real"?
2733 2011-04-12 21:27:43 <Kiba> .9* level
2734 2011-04-12 21:27:43 <Blitzboom> no, 4k
2735 2011-04-12 21:27:50 <BlueMatt> god, yet another "critical" vuln in flash discovered, we really need private key encryption soon
2736 2011-04-12 21:28:01 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r79706a8 / (30 files in 8 dirs): Merge branch 'upnp' of https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/79706a8e48a043b9ca83216ba9cbb7413e81710d
2737 2011-04-12 21:28:12 <jgarzik> looks like 10k to clear through 0.92
2738 2011-04-12 21:28:20 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yay
2739 2011-04-12 21:28:21 <jgarzik> http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/mtgoxUSD.html
2740 2011-04-12 21:28:29 <Lycurgus> real is your brain and all the stuff outside it
2741 2011-04-12 21:28:36 <Blitzboom> 4k to break .9$ is nothing
2742 2011-04-12 21:28:53 glassresistor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2743 2011-04-12 21:29:28 <Lycurgus> but not necessarily everything your brain claims is actually outside it
2744 2011-04-12 21:29:30 <jgarzik> the entire market is nothing
2745 2011-04-12 21:29:42 <Blitzboom> true
2746 2011-04-12 21:29:45 <Kiba> our economy is so fricking small
2747 2011-04-12 21:29:47 <Kiba> ;_;
2748 2011-04-12 21:29:55 <sipa> i don't like the wikipedia article claiming the bitcoin economy is 4.5M USD
2749 2011-04-12 21:30:05 <Blitzboom> yeah, that’s nonsense
2750 2011-04-12 21:30:10 <jgarzik> if you've ever played around with prosper.com or penny stocks or any other small market, it is inevitable that one or two people with stupid amounts of idle money start playing (500k-2M range)
2751 2011-04-12 21:30:16 <jgarzik> we haven't even seen that yet
2752 2011-04-12 21:30:19 <sipa> if they'd call it market cap, maybe
2753 2011-04-12 21:30:31 <jgarzik> sipa: agree
2754 2011-04-12 21:30:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: agree, please change
2755 2011-04-12 21:30:54 <hozer> how many transactions were there in the block chain last week?
2756 2011-04-12 21:30:54 <Kiba> 4.5 million dollars is still nothing
2757 2011-04-12 21:31:00 <jgarzik> sipa: that might be my fault, from bitcoinwatch "economy -> total size"
2758 2011-04-12 21:31:06 <jgarzik> sipa: someone read that and pasted
2759 2011-04-12 21:31:25 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * rc59b6f7 / main.cpp :
2760 2011-04-12 21:31:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Bugfix for spentpertxout: slow startup
2761 2011-04-12 21:31:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: When starting the client, ReacceptWalletTransaction didn't skip spent
2762 2011-04-12 21:31:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: transactions in its loop, and processed all old spent transactions again. -
2763 2011-04-12 21:31:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/c59b6f704cd8f42e1943f124f435363bfff244f5
2764 2011-04-12 21:31:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * rd89d456 / main.cpp : Merge branch 'spentpertxout' of https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/d89d456655f03159a32e6a4a9df22bfe02d403d6
2765 2011-04-12 21:31:30 <Blitzboom> you can’t draw any conclusions from the current speculative price to the economy
2766 2011-04-12 21:31:37 <Blitzboom> with very low volume
2767 2011-04-12 21:31:38 cdecker has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2768 2011-04-12 21:32:23 <gavinandresen> Anybody have any objections to me pulling  "Report immature coinbase txns in listtransactions" ?
2769 2011-04-12 21:32:32 <gavinandresen> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/138
2770 2011-04-12 21:32:39 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r26a52caad36b supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/OTCWebsite/viewratings.php: OTCWebsite: add keyid to ratings table display. http://tinyurl.com/3uwh94j
2771 2011-04-12 21:32:40 <jgarzik> push 'em out, shove 'em out, waaaayyyy out!
2772 2011-04-12 21:33:03 * jgarzik is feeling loopy, on two bottles of Sun Drop
2773 2011-04-12 21:33:24 <dishwara> 0.92usd, damn
2774 2011-04-12 21:34:32 <sipa> is there some historical list of mtgox volumes available?
2775 2011-04-12 21:34:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: bitcoincharts will show it to you in the graph
2776 2011-04-12 21:35:10 <Lycurgus> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg60zvztgSzm1g10zm2g25
2777 2011-04-12 21:35:11 <jgarzik> sipa: when tcatm bought BCW from me, it had all mtgox trades, from all time, available for d/l as XML or JSON
2778 2011-04-12 21:35:22 <jgarzik> sipa: should be there someone, for easy import
2779 2011-04-12 21:35:24 <jgarzik> somewhere
2780 2011-04-12 21:35:29 <tcatm> it is
2781 2011-04-12 21:35:43 <tcatm> http://bitcoincharts.com/about/markets-api/
2782 2011-04-12 21:35:57 <hozer> do you have to poll to get new market data?
2783 2011-04-12 21:36:06 Dark_Ghost has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2784 2011-04-12 21:36:07 <hozer> Or is there any way to get it streamed/pushed
2785 2011-04-12 21:36:09 <tcatm> telnet bitcoincharts.com 27007
2786 2011-04-12 21:36:15 <tcatm> (use ipv4)
2787 2011-04-12 21:36:25 <sipa> if there is a list, maybe the wikipedia article can refer to it as source for a statement like "Currently (April 2011), the daily trade volume is usually between 6000 USD and 20000 USD" (just making numbers up)
2788 2011-04-12 21:36:42 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2789 2011-04-12 21:37:33 <nanotube> gavinandresen: ++ on immature generations
2790 2011-04-12 21:37:50 <tcatm> you can create fixed links to the charts if you select "Custom Time"
2791 2011-04-12 21:38:05 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Gavin Andresen master * r485dda9 / (main.cpp main.h rpc.cpp): Merge branch 'listimmature' of /Users/gavin/src/gavin_btc - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/485dda9774b574a82fd23dc9650dd2cbcab2a391
2792 2011-04-12 21:38:08 <jgarzik> tcatm: any chance bitcoincharts could have sets of pages for each symbol, a la http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=MSFT ?  Down the left column, you can specify summary (default view), order book, historical prices, charts with custom date ranges, news headlines, ...
2793 2011-04-12 21:38:33 <Kiba> looks like .8* level are cleared
2794 2011-04-12 21:39:28 <Blitzboom> slow much?
2795 2011-04-12 21:39:36 <Kiba> slow?
2796 2011-04-12 21:39:43 <tcatm> jgarzik: sure, I'd just need to write some views
2797 2011-04-12 21:39:54 <Blitzboom> yeah, it’s been cleared for a while now
2798 2011-04-12 21:40:09 <tcatm> or rather change the current market detail view
2799 2011-04-12 21:40:16 dishwara has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
2800 2011-04-12 21:40:24 <hozer> tcatm: hrrm
2801 2011-04-12 21:40:38 <Kiba> tcatm: I have to refresh to get new data sometime
2802 2011-04-12 21:40:41 <hozer> tcatm: is there any equivalent of that for mtgox?
2803 2011-04-12 21:40:48 <tcatm> hozer: nope
2804 2011-04-12 21:40:52 <Kiba> it update on the left
2805 2011-04-12 21:40:56 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,bcgen 33
2806 2011-04-12 21:40:56 <Kiba> but not on the right
2807 2011-04-12 21:41:12 <tcatm> Kiba: yep. only the big table auto updates
2808 2011-04-12 21:41:19 <jgarzik> tcatm: one item of particular interest is Yahoo's 'Basic Chart', which you can easily view data over the chosen date range, and add in special modifiers like RSI
2809 2011-04-12 21:41:28 <gribble> Error: "bc,bcgen" is not a valid command.
2810 2011-04-12 21:41:35 <hozer> I wonder if I start hammering mtgox every 30 seconds if they will even notice ;)
2811 2011-04-12 21:41:44 <jgarzik> tcatm: if we could point reporters to a weekly or monthly chart of bitcoin, that would be neat
2812 2011-04-12 21:41:45 <sipa> rlifchitz: what do you want to calculate?
2813 2011-04-12 21:41:50 Stellar has joined
2814 2011-04-12 21:41:50 <tcatm> jgarzik: that's something the big chart already does
2815 2011-04-12 21:42:11 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,gen 33
2816 2011-04-12 21:42:14 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 33 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 0.000403077789043 BTC per day and 1.67949078768e-05 BTC per hour.
2817 2011-04-12 21:42:22 <tcatm> set options as you like and click "Link to this chart"
2818 2011-04-12 21:42:24 <Kiba> the nicest thing about the bitcoin economy: Bitcoin galore!
2819 2011-04-12 21:42:26 <Kiba> err
2820 2011-04-12 21:42:26 <rlifchitz> all right thx
2821 2011-04-12 21:42:39 <Kiba> the nicest thing about the bitcoin economy: Charts galore!
2822 2011-04-12 21:43:11 <nanotube> hozer: gribble on #bitcoin-market used to ping the mtgox gettrades every 10s. no problems. now that bitcoincharts provides the nice push api for a bunch of markets all together, i don't do it anymore. i leave the pinging job to bitcoincharts :)
2823 2011-04-12 21:43:14 <forrestv> ;;bc,gen 60000
2824 2011-04-12 21:43:17 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 0.732868707351 BTC per day and 0.0305361961396 BTC per hour.
2825 2011-04-12 21:43:50 <Kiba> ;;bc,gen 600000
2826 2011-04-12 21:43:51 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 7.32868707351 BTC per day and 0.305361961396 BTC per hour.
2827 2011-04-12 21:43:53 * sipa still fetches market depth info every minute from mtgox
2828 2011-04-12 21:44:12 <forrestv> ;;bc,gen 10000000
2829 2011-04-12 21:44:13 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 122.144784558 BTC per day and 5.08936602327 BTC per hour.
2830 2011-04-12 21:44:49 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2831 2011-04-12 21:48:43 <hozer> I've got this idea of a 'money market/bitcoin market' fund that runs full open-source AGPL/GPLv3 code and runs automated trades to do market-making and arbitrage between exchanges
2832 2011-04-12 21:48:54 KnuttyD has joined
2833 2011-04-12 21:49:15 <BlueMatt> hozer: do it
2834 2011-04-12 21:49:24 <hozer> and for this to work, I'll need to get a real-time feed from all the exchanges
2835 2011-04-12 21:49:34 <hozer> and put servers close to them network wise
2836 2011-04-12 21:50:02 <BlueMatt> hozer: you would have to talk to the individual exchanges in that case
2837 2011-04-12 21:50:05 <tcatm> first step: write specs for such a realtime protocol
2838 2011-04-12 21:50:37 <BlueMatt> mtg used to have a websockets api, but it went away when MagicalTux took over
2839 2011-04-12 21:50:56 <Kiba> MagicalTux is looking for someone to develop a websockets API, right?
2840 2011-04-12 21:50:59 <Kiba> but
2841 2011-04-12 21:51:06 <Kiba> I don't know why he wants QT and C++
2842 2011-04-12 21:51:09 <genjix> how does bitcoin select the connections to the network?
2843 2011-04-12 21:51:22 <tcatm> most new exchanges are asking me how they should implement trade/orderbook API. I usually tell them to copy mtgox as there's nothing better available that's widely used.
2844 2011-04-12 21:51:25 <BlueMatt> genjix: random, always tries to keep 8 outbound ones
2845 2011-04-12 21:51:38 <genjix> cool where can i see this code?
2846 2011-04-12 21:51:41 <hozer> hrrm
2847 2011-04-12 21:51:47 <hozer> what about Btcex?
2848 2011-04-12 21:52:12 <tcatm> btcex uses some weird csv API (polling)
2849 2011-04-12 21:52:24 <BlueMatt> genjix: cat net.cpp | grep MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS
2850 2011-04-12 21:52:29 <genjix> thank you
2851 2011-04-12 21:52:34 phantomcircuit has joined
2852 2011-04-12 21:52:35 <hozer> so far I've preferred the btcex web interface
2853 2011-04-12 21:52:58 <sipa> ThreadOpenConnections2
2854 2011-04-12 21:53:00 <gjs278> why cat a file to grep for something
2855 2011-04-12 21:53:00 <sipa> in net.cpp
2856 2011-04-12 21:53:18 <hozer> I need to write some code that does stupid polling every say 10seconds first, and then I might have a clue how to spec a realtime format
2857 2011-04-12 21:53:39 <BlueMatt> gjs278: I was telling him where to look, not how to do it, cat | grep is a convenient short-hand as people understand it
2858 2011-04-12 21:53:55 <gjs278> I mean
2859 2011-04-12 21:53:57 <gjs278> why not
2860 2011-04-12 21:53:58 <nanotube> tcatm: bcm's telnet interface is better. no polling required. :)
2861 2011-04-12 21:54:02 <gjs278> grep MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS net.cpp
2862 2011-04-12 21:54:03 <BlueMatt> and is easier than writing look in net.cpp for code around references to MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS
2863 2011-04-12 21:54:12 alystair has joined
2864 2011-04-12 21:54:18 <tcatm> nanotube: true. JSON would be nice, though.
2865 2011-04-12 21:54:25 <hozer> nanotube: what's the latency between a trade and when it shows up on BCM?
2866 2011-04-12 21:54:26 <gjs278> I'm just saying you don't have to cat is all
2867 2011-04-12 21:54:28 <BlueMatt> gjs278: some of us were taught wrong, and have never bothered to re-learn
2868 2011-04-12 21:54:31 <gjs278> lol
2869 2011-04-12 21:54:32 <BlueMatt> ;)
2870 2011-04-12 21:54:41 <nanotube> hozer: a few milliseconds.
2871 2011-04-12 21:54:47 <gjs278> the guy at work cat|greps too
2872 2011-04-12 21:54:49 <nanotube> ballpark :)
2873 2011-04-12 21:54:57 <nanotube> tcatm: true... you can suggest that to dwdollar?
2874 2011-04-12 21:55:05 <tcatm> nanotube: or at least decent trade volume so adding support to bitcoincharts would actually make sense
2875 2011-04-12 21:55:13 KnuttyD has quit (Quit: User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby)
2876 2011-04-12 21:55:25 <nanotube> tcatm: well... you already have bcm on bitcoincharts, no?
2877 2011-04-12 21:55:35 <tcatm> yep, but I'm polling them
2878 2011-04-12 21:55:37 <nanotube> but yes, a nice standardized json output for a push-telnet server would be cool.
2879 2011-04-12 21:55:41 <nanotube> aah i c
2880 2011-04-12 21:55:48 <hozer> aaaaaahh
2881 2011-04-12 21:55:49 <BlueMatt> gjs278: its more convenient if I have to edit it to do some other command quickly though (eg change to awk)
2882 2011-04-12 21:55:51 <nanotube> basically, like what you have on bitcoincharts
2883 2011-04-12 21:55:53 <hozer> nanotube: do you run bcm?
2884 2011-04-12 21:55:57 <gjs278> yeah no filenames
2885 2011-04-12 21:55:59 <nanotube> hozer: no, dwdollar does.
2886 2011-04-12 21:56:48 <hozer> does any exchange run a real-time telnet server?
2887 2011-04-12 21:56:55 <nanotube> tcatm: maybe like 'id' 'timestamp', 'currencypair', 'price' being required fields, any extra fields optional. (e.g. in case of non-insta-settle marketplaces, trade status, etc.)
2888 2011-04-12 21:57:00 <nanotube> hozer: bcmv2 does
2889 2011-04-12 21:57:12 <hozer> what's it's url
2890 2011-04-12 21:57:23 <tcatm> telnet bitcoinmarket.com 27007
2891 2011-04-12 21:57:32 <nanotube> https://www.bitcoinmarket.com/market/tools/ <-- see details on the bottom of page
2892 2011-04-12 21:58:20 <hozer> now, can I get streaming orderbook updates too? ;)
2893 2011-04-12 21:58:20 tower has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2894 2011-04-12 21:59:22 <gjs278> how do I rebase commits that I've already made to a repo
2895 2011-04-12 21:59:42 <sipa> gjs278: you rebase them locally
2896 2011-04-12 21:59:59 <sipa> then delete the branch remotely, and push it again
2897 2011-04-12 22:00:04 <gjs278> I didn't make another branch, I think I'm working in "master"
2898 2011-04-12 22:00:05 <sipa> (at least, that's how i do that...)
2899 2011-04-12 22:00:09 <gjs278> wat do for rebase locally
2900 2011-04-12 22:00:37 <gjs278> I tried git rebase master and it seems to have done nothing
2901 2011-04-12 22:00:48 <sipa> git rebase -i upstream/master
2902 2011-04-12 22:01:03 tower has joined
2903 2011-04-12 22:01:18 <gjs278> fatal: Needed a single revision
2904 2011-04-12 22:02:00 <sipa> maybe it's easier to branch
2905 2011-04-12 22:02:12 sethsethseth has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2906 2011-04-12 22:02:26 sethsethseth has joined
2907 2011-04-12 22:02:46 <gjs278> it's because I made two commits in a pull request
2908 2011-04-12 22:02:50 <gjs278> and they want it to be one commit
2909 2011-04-12 22:03:02 <sipa> i know
2910 2011-04-12 22:03:03 <gjs278> but I made commit #2 after learning new specs that needed to be added after commit #1
2911 2011-04-12 22:03:09 <sipa> ok
2912 2011-04-12 22:03:23 <sipa> it's the pidfile support, right?
2913 2011-04-12 22:03:25 <gjs278> yeah
2914 2011-04-12 22:03:30 <sipa> git branch pidfile
2915 2011-04-12 22:03:37 <sipa> git checkout pidfile
2916 2011-04-12 22:03:49 <gjs278> alright, I'm with you so far
2917 2011-04-12 22:03:53 <sipa> (to create a branch from your current version, and check it out)
2918 2011-04-12 22:04:06 <sipa> do you have upstream added as remote?
2919 2011-04-12 22:04:33 <gjs278> whenever I want to send a commit I just do git push and it asks for my password, I've never typed the word upstream
2920 2011-04-12 22:04:51 <sipa> git remote add upstream git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
2921 2011-04-12 22:05:04 genjix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2922 2011-04-12 22:05:06 <gjs278> alright
2923 2011-04-12 22:05:28 <sipa> git rebase -i upstream/master
2924 2011-04-12 22:05:41 <gjs278> # git rebase -i upstream/master
2925 2011-04-12 22:05:43 <gjs278> fatal: Needed a single revision
2926 2011-04-12 22:05:44 <gjs278> Invalid base
2927 2011-04-12 22:06:26 * sipa calls git-expert help
2928 2011-04-12 22:06:28 Lachesis has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2929 2011-04-12 22:06:39 <tcatm> Anyone want to invest in bitcoincharts?
2930 2011-04-12 22:06:51 <MagicalTux> [06:48:14] <Kiba> I don't know why he wants QT and C++ <- because I want to create something new and scalable, and because I don't trust in programs I don't have the time to read (ie. the python thingie used by mtgox for ws)
2931 2011-04-12 22:06:59 <Blitzboom> tcatm: bitcoins?
2932 2011-04-12 22:07:11 <tcatm> Blitzboom: yep
2933 2011-04-12 22:07:15 <purplezky> do you have some roadmap with requested features to develop in bitcoin, or do you guys just merge branches with useful features in the main branch ?
2934 2011-04-12 22:07:20 <Blitzboom> details? :P
2935 2011-04-12 22:07:54 <tcatm> I don't have any. That's the problem... I have no idea how such an investment could work or actually make money.
2936 2011-04-12 22:07:58 <BlueMatt> not a solution, but git rebase -i 485dda9774b574a82fd2?
2937 2011-04-12 22:08:05 <Blitzboom> how about ad revenue?
2938 2011-04-12 22:08:21 <Blitzboom> have you considered the upcoming stock market for this, btw?
2939 2011-04-12 22:08:23 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2940 2011-04-12 22:08:30 <gjs278> # git rebase -i 485dda9774b574a82fd2
2941 2011-04-12 22:08:31 <gjs278> fatal: Needed a single revision
2942 2011-04-12 22:08:38 <Kiba> MagicalTux: I know node.js and javascript
2943 2011-04-12 22:08:42 <BlueMatt> now that just makes no sense
2944 2011-04-12 22:08:43 <gjs278> unless 485 was supposed to be something different lol
2945 2011-04-12 22:08:47 <tcatm> Blitzboom: It covers server costs, but that's about it. Not even close to paying a developer from it.
2946 2011-04-12 22:08:49 <sipa> gjs278: do a git fetch upstream first maybe
2947 2011-04-12 22:08:56 <BlueMatt> gjs278: and you have git pull?
2948 2011-04-12 22:09:00 <Blitzboom> well, that’s why it’s called investment
2949 2011-04-12 22:09:02 <BlueMatt> ed since adding the remote
2950 2011-04-12 22:09:04 <gjs278> okay I did git fetch upstream
2951 2011-04-12 22:09:14 <gjs278> I got some stuff
2952 2011-04-12 22:09:16 <tcatm> Blitzboom: is the stockmarket ready yet?
2953 2011-04-12 22:09:20 <Blitzboom> i would invest if i was guaranteed a certain share of future ad revenues
2954 2011-04-12 22:09:29 <BlueMatt> gjs278: rebase work now?
2955 2011-04-12 22:09:32 <Blitzboom> not yet, unfortunately, but nefario states it should be in less than two weeks
2956 2011-04-12 22:09:37 <gjs278> yes
2957 2011-04-12 22:09:39 <sipa> purplezky: people branch, create pull requests, and a few have rights to merge in the main branch
2958 2011-04-12 22:09:41 <gjs278> sweet
2959 2011-04-12 22:09:50 <tcatm> Blitzboom: how much would you invest?
2960 2011-04-12 22:09:52 <Kiba> MagicalTux: it's a way to build scalable network programs
2961 2011-04-12 22:10:25 <Blitzboom> few hundred at least, bitcoincharts is awesome
2962 2011-04-12 22:11:05 <tcatm> Could take years to get that back from ads
2963 2011-04-12 22:11:26 <gjs278> okay I have everything rebased into one... now I just need to know the proper way to commit
2964 2011-04-12 22:11:29 <gjs278> I've been doing git push
2965 2011-04-12 22:11:42 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2966 2011-04-12 22:11:50 <Blitzboom> depends on how popular bitcoin becomes
2967 2011-04-12 22:12:11 genjix has joined
2968 2011-04-12 22:12:13 genjix has quit (Changing host)
2969 2011-04-12 22:12:13 genjix has joined
2970 2011-04-12 22:12:16 <Blitzboom> how much would you be looking for and for what purposes? hiring a developer?
2971 2011-04-12 22:12:36 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2972 2011-04-12 22:12:58 AAA_awright_ has joined
2973 2011-04-12 22:13:18 taco_the_paco has joined
2974 2011-04-12 22:13:20 <hozer> yeah, what's the use of funds ;)
2975 2011-04-12 22:13:30 <tcatm> The developer would be me, I could just spent more time adding features instead of doing it only in spare time.
2976 2011-04-12 22:14:06 <hozer> I'd call that more sponsoring a necessary service ;)
2977 2011-04-12 22:14:07 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, i was going to have my python client take a 0.1% cut of all transactions
2978 2011-04-12 22:14:11 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, ;)
2979 2011-04-12 22:14:14 <gjs278> sipa I believe I'm good so far, just need to know what to do for commiting. I've been doing git push but I don't think that's the right way
2980 2011-04-12 22:14:23 <tcatm> phantomcircuit: that's evil
2981 2011-04-12 22:14:33 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, would be up front about it
2982 2011-04-12 22:14:36 <sipa> gjs278: git push remote pidfile
2983 2011-04-12 22:14:38 <hozer> hah
2984 2011-04-12 22:14:46 intel_ix has left ()
2985 2011-04-12 22:14:49 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 1260000 6d 10h
2986 2011-04-12 22:14:50 <gribble> 0.861249950044
2987 2011-04-12 22:14:54 <hozer> well, what would prevent us from just ripping out the 0.1% cut code ;)
2988 2011-04-12 22:15:19 <phantomcircuit> hozer, nothing at all of course
2989 2011-04-12 22:15:41 <Blitzboom> anyway, i hink you should wait for the stock market release
2990 2011-04-12 22:15:46 <hozer> I think that's perfectly reasonable
2991 2011-04-12 22:15:52 <Blitzboom> probably lots of people are interested in investing in bitcoin startups
2992 2011-04-12 22:15:54 <phantomcircuit> hozer, it would just be a bet that 99% of people dont care about 0.1%
2993 2011-04-12 22:16:03 <sipa> gjs278: that will create a pidfile branch on your github copy
2994 2011-04-12 22:16:07 <gjs278> http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/614/screenshotsrv.png
2995 2011-04-12 22:16:17 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2996 2011-04-12 22:16:45 <sipa> :S
2997 2011-04-12 22:16:47 <tcatm> hozer, Blitzboom: do you know about the legal requirements for such a investment?
2998 2011-04-12 22:16:53 <sipa> gjs278: git push origin pidfile
2999 2011-04-12 22:16:56 <grbgout> gjs278: although not immediately helpful, have your seen the git ebook?
3000 2011-04-12 22:17:05 <sipa> my mistake
3001 2011-04-12 22:17:11 <gjs278> I've been good up until rebasing lol
3002 2011-04-12 22:17:15 <grbgout> s/your/you/
3003 2011-04-12 22:17:28 <sipa> origin is your branch on githib, upstream is bitcoin's main repo
3004 2011-04-12 22:17:31 <grbgout> well, whether you have or haven't, here's the URL: http://progit.org/book/
3005 2011-04-12 22:17:33 <gjs278> okay
3006 2011-04-12 22:17:36 <gjs278> so I have a new branch now
3007 2011-04-12 22:18:00 <sipa> gjs278: you'll need to recreate the push request
3008 2011-04-12 22:18:41 <hozer> tcatm: what state are you in
3009 2011-04-12 22:18:48 <tcatm> germany
3010 2011-04-12 22:19:03 <phantomcircuit> tcatm, that's not a state
3011 2011-04-12 22:19:14 <hozer> well crap. I don't know then. If you get say 3 people and do an LLC in the US it's not too much trouble
3012 2011-04-12 22:19:40 <grbgout> hozer: oh, you know much about starting businesses (specifically LLC's)?
3013 2011-04-12 22:20:23 <sipa> gjs278: with git commit --amend you can change your user name by the way
3014 2011-04-12 22:20:40 <grbgout> Incidentally, my understanding is that LLCs are very popular amongst non-citizens for starting businesses in the US.
3015 2011-04-12 22:20:40 <purplezky> grbgout: i believe ycombinator help fund starting businesses
3016 2011-04-12 22:20:52 <grbgout> purplezky: wasn't going to ask about funding.
3017 2011-04-12 22:20:59 <grbgout> purplezky: but I suppose that's good to know =D
3018 2011-04-12 22:21:01 <Blitzboom> hmm, can’t help you with law, unfortunately
3019 2011-04-12 22:21:15 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, not very popular with us citizens though
3020 2011-04-12 22:21:19 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, s corp all the way
3021 2011-04-12 22:21:23 <Blitzboom> not sure whether a formal company/stock is necessary for that
3022 2011-04-12 22:21:23 <phantomcircuit> fuck double taxation
3023 2011-04-12 22:21:46 <grbgout> phantomcircuit: not from what I've read.... LLC's aren't double-taxed, they're pass-through.  Although, I was going to ask hozer some taxation questions.
3024 2011-04-12 22:21:52 <sipa> gjs278: git commit --amend --author "My Real Name <user@email.com>"
3025 2011-04-12 22:22:05 <purplezky> grbgout: they invest twice a year for an average of $18k per company and help setting and running things
3026 2011-04-12 22:22:15 <grbgout> purplezky: interesting.
3027 2011-04-12 22:22:15 <gjs278> hmm ok
3028 2011-04-12 22:22:19 <gjs278> I'll try that
3029 2011-04-12 22:22:28 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3030 2011-04-12 22:22:32 <Blitzboom> i think they’d want to tax share earnings
3031 2011-04-12 22:22:46 <grbgout> Blitzboom: "they"?
3032 2011-04-12 22:22:50 <Blitzboom> depending on size …
3033 2011-04-12 22:22:57 <Blitzboom> grbgout: government
3034 2011-04-12 22:23:00 <Lycurgus> you mean claim, tax is something only sovereigns can do
3035 2011-04-12 22:23:00 <grbgout> ah
3036 2011-04-12 22:23:00 <gjs278> sipa it only seems to have my last commit in there... not  both
3037 2011-04-12 22:23:08 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, a normal llc isn't pass-through, but you can file as such
3038 2011-04-12 22:23:31 <grbgout> phantomcircuit: that's not true from what I've read.  The opposite is.  You have to elect to be something other than pass-through.
3039 2011-04-12 22:23:43 <phantomcircuit> grbgout, nope
3040 2011-04-12 22:23:45 <grbgout> I have the IRS PDFs on my PC right now.
3041 2011-04-12 22:23:47 <sipa> gjs278: haven't you changed it to a single commit?
3042 2011-04-12 22:23:55 <gjs278> I thought I did
3043 2011-04-12 22:24:19 <sipa> you didn't, it seems
3044 2011-04-12 22:24:26 <gjs278> lol
3045 2011-04-12 22:24:47 <gjs278> git rebase -i upstream/master
3046 2011-04-12 22:24:53 <grbgout> I have a tonne of business links.  I spent the better part of 2010 researching the startup process.
3047 2011-04-12 22:24:56 <gjs278> ok I see both commits there
3048 2011-04-12 22:25:09 <sipa> gjs278: change the word in front of the second one to "fixup"
3049 2011-04-12 22:25:13 <grbgout> Here's an excellent resource (not specific to LLCs): http://www.toolkit.com/small_business_guide/index.aspx
3050 2011-04-12 22:25:14 <gjs278> alright
3051 2011-04-12 22:25:22 <Lycurgus> wikipedia says they take about 6%
3052 2011-04-12 22:25:27 <sipa> that way it will be combined with the previous one
3053 2011-04-12 22:25:48 <grbgout> phantomcircuit: here's a comparison table, http://www.incorporate-us.com/?choice=comparison-table
3054 2011-04-12 22:25:57 <grbgout> "Income/loss passed through to Members similar to a Partnership"
3055 2011-04-12 22:26:11 <grbgout> "double taxation? No"
3056 2011-04-12 22:26:51 radiopaybackFTW has joined
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3058 2011-04-12 22:27:46 timeout-1 has joined
3059 2011-04-12 22:27:59 <hozer> yeah, LLC's and S-corps are pass-through
3060 2011-04-12 22:28:07 <hozer> I've been part of an S-corp, and I'm part of an LLC now
3061 2011-04-12 22:28:16 <tcatm> Are there any lawyers that take bitcoin?
3062 2011-04-12 22:28:30 <hozer> hah
3063 2011-04-12 22:28:38 <grbgout> hozer: mind if I pick your brain some time?  I've been debating whether I should form my LLC to elect S-corp taxation status.
3064 2011-04-12 22:28:51 taco_the_paco has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3065 2011-04-12 22:29:06 <hozer> grbgout: um, go ahead, but I'll probably say find a lawyer in your jurisdiction ;)
3066 2011-04-12 22:29:13 * grbgout chuckles
3067 2011-04-12 22:29:18 <Blitzboom> lawyers accepting bitcoin? that’d be nice …
3068 2011-04-12 22:29:22 <gjs278> lol sipa how do I cancel a rebase
3069 2011-04-12 22:29:25 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3070 2011-04-12 22:29:26 <grbgout> that goes without saying, this is the interwebs after all.
3071 2011-04-12 22:29:29 <gjs278> # git rebase -i upstream/master
3072 2011-04-12 22:29:30 <gjs278> Interactive rebase already started
3073 2011-04-12 22:29:47 <gjs278> got it
3074 2011-04-12 22:29:48 <gjs278> --abort
3075 2011-04-12 22:29:51 TD_ has joined
3076 2011-04-12 22:29:55 <grbgout> gjs278: o.O why are you running as root?
3077 2011-04-12 22:30:02 <gjs278> ownage
3078 2011-04-12 22:30:12 timeout-1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3079 2011-04-12 22:30:22 <gjs278> http://garyshood.com/run-as-root/
3080 2011-04-12 22:30:30 <gjs278> whoops
3081 2011-04-12 22:30:32 <gjs278> http://garyshood.com/root/
3082 2011-04-12 22:30:33 <gjs278> is the real link
3083 2011-04-12 22:31:10 kermit has joined
3084 2011-04-12 22:31:17 <sipa> that's how - not why
3085 2011-04-12 22:31:43 <grbgout> just reading the intro blurb, that's amusing.  I tend to sudo su whenever I want to do maintenance.
3086 2011-04-12 22:31:55 Zenith77 has joined
3087 2011-04-12 22:32:02 <sipa> me too
3088 2011-04-12 22:32:09 <grbgout> bah, phantom left without backing up his claims.  Hate that.
3089 2011-04-12 22:32:14 skreuzer has quit (Quit: skreuzer)
3090 2011-04-12 22:32:14 phantomcircuit_ has joined
3091 2011-04-12 22:32:16 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Client Quit)
3092 2011-04-12 22:32:19 <grbgout> speak of the devil! aw
3093 2011-04-12 22:32:24 <sipa> is see me the user, and me the admin as separate identities
3094 2011-04-12 22:32:28 <sipa> *i
3095 2011-04-12 22:32:36 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Daniel Folkinshteyn * r69d78f79cd60 supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor/GPGExt/plugin.py: GPGExt: fix problem with hardcoded profile url for ebay profile verification. http://tinyurl.com/5wdvmlm
3096 2011-04-12 22:32:37 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * r1d2477c56272 intersango/ (10 files in 2 dirs): reverted back to old version. http://tinyurl.com/69jvcv6
3097 2011-04-12 22:32:39 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rc169b11c2886 intersango/view_request.php: temporarily disabled cancelling requests until it works. http://tinyurl.com/5tadxk5
3098 2011-04-12 22:32:40 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rb35f11e54567 intersango/config.php: deleted exper config.php http://tinyurl.com/6xcq3ap
3099 2011-04-12 22:32:48 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rfbfbfcc16bf8 intersango/scr/ (match_statements.sql unit.sh): Merge branch 'master' of gitorious.org:intersango/master
3100 2011-04-12 22:33:26 x6763 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3101 2011-04-12 22:33:26 ducki2p has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3102 2011-04-12 22:33:27 <grbgout> hozer: have any familiarity with the holding and operating entity combination?
3103 2011-04-12 22:33:56 ducki2p has joined
3104 2011-04-12 22:33:58 x6763 has joined
3105 2011-04-12 22:34:10 <hozer> I love that real men run root article
3106 2011-04-12 22:34:25 <hozer> grbgout: no clue
3107 2011-04-12 22:34:43 <grbgout> hozer: k, can't answer my questions then =D
3108 2011-04-12 22:34:59 <grbgout> hozer: http://www.toolkit.com/small_business_guide/sbg.aspx?nid=P12_5000 is a decent intro to them.
3109 2011-04-12 22:36:03 eao has joined
3110 2011-04-12 22:38:04 <grbgout> gjs278: that article is great.
3111 2011-04-12 22:39:06 <nanotube> hozer: yes, bitcoinmarket streams order input/cancellation as well.
3112 2011-04-12 22:40:20 <hozer> now where did tatm go
3113 2011-04-12 22:40:45 MartianW has joined
3114 2011-04-12 22:40:53 <hozer> so why does nobody use bitcoinmarket?
3115 2011-04-12 22:41:21 <tcatm> hozer: invite-only
3116 2011-04-12 22:41:29 <Kiba> it's not invite only anymore
3117 2011-04-12 22:41:34 <tcatm> not?
3118 2011-04-12 22:41:40 <Kiba> and mtgox in the early day already exceed bitcoinmarket volume
3119 2011-04-12 22:41:45 <Kiba> tcatm: that's my impression
3120 2011-04-12 22:41:45 <nanotube> hozer: well, it used to be the main exchange. then came mtgox, and they were about equal in volume. then bcm was effectively closed to new registration for a while due to that paypal fraud wave, and mtgox was the only large exchange. and now that bcmv2 is back, it still hasn't gotten its volume back.
3121 2011-04-12 22:42:05 * Kiba remember history a bit differently
3122 2011-04-12 22:42:06 <nanotube> tcatm: let's make a decent business plan, and i'll consider investing in bcharts
3123 2011-04-12 22:42:33 da2ceZzzz is now known as da2ce7
3124 2011-04-12 22:42:36 da2ce7 has quit (Changing host)
3125 2011-04-12 22:42:36 da2ce7 has joined
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3127 2011-04-12 22:42:51 <hozer> hrrm
3128 2011-04-12 22:43:43 <grbgout> nanotube: paypal fraud wave?
3129 2011-04-12 22:44:00 <nanotube> grbgout: yes, back around aug/sep 2010
3130 2011-04-12 22:44:08 <hozer> tcatm: nanotube:  ... any thoughts on a collaborative business plan? ;)
3131 2011-04-12 22:44:13 <Kiba> it was a nasty impediment
3132 2011-04-12 22:44:26 <hozer> I keep wondering how to do an open-source business plan development
3133 2011-04-12 22:44:27 <nanotube> grbgout: someone came through with a bunch of stolen pp accounts, and funnelled out a bunch of btc.
3134 2011-04-12 22:44:44 <Kiba> the bitcoin economy still have not yet made it very exchange dollars into bitcoin like the early days
3135 2011-04-12 22:44:47 <grbgout> nanotube: oh, wow.  I was just assuming it wasn't specific to BTC.
3136 2011-04-12 22:45:06 <Kiba> very easy to exchange dollars into bitcoin*
3137 2011-04-12 22:45:07 <grbgout> But that makes more sense: had it been a full blown PP fraud I'm sure I would have heard of it.
3138 2011-04-12 22:45:12 <Kiba> because paypal was basically the easiest
3139 2011-04-12 22:45:27 MartianW has left ()
3140 2011-04-12 22:45:37 <Kiba> so now we're stuck with coinpal's fraud prevention scheme
3141 2011-04-12 22:45:44 Omnifarious is now known as Omni|AFK
3142 2011-04-12 22:45:47 <Kiba> so we can only buy small volume of bitcoin every week
3143 2011-04-12 22:45:58 <nanotube> Kiba: not if you have good trust in the community.
3144 2011-04-12 22:46:09 <nanotube> it's small volume for newcomers
3145 2011-04-12 22:46:11 <Kiba> nanotube: newbies don't have trust
3146 2011-04-12 22:46:22 <tcatm> hozer, nanotube: #bitcoincharts
3147 2011-04-12 22:46:25 <nanotube> yes, but you said 'we'
3148 2011-04-12 22:46:25 <grbgout> Kiba: what about the cash for bitcoins approach?  Yes, it's not currently very easy, but I could see it becoming so.  An ATM style machine comes to mind: put money in, BTC added to one's account --- they would have to be connected to market watching facilities somehow, though.
3149 2011-04-12 22:46:47 <grbgout> tcatm: do you mind if I join?  I'm interesting in seeing how an open source business plan might form.
3150 2011-04-12 22:47:05 <grbgout> Or, rather, a business based on open source solutions might form a  business plan.
3151 2011-04-12 22:47:05 <Kiba> if you have critical mass, it would be incredibly easy to find a local dealer and exchange bitcoin for cash
3152 2011-04-12 22:47:22 <tcatm> grbgout: nope, anyone who's intersting in bcharts development might join :)
3153 2011-04-12 22:47:24 <tcatm> ed*
3154 2011-04-12 22:47:30 <Lycurgus> if I have 3 clients on different machines with different addresses behind a routner/fw with a single IP am I 3 bc nodes?
3155 2011-04-12 22:47:34 <grbgout> ah, cool. I do like the site, very purty --- like me.
3156 2011-04-12 22:47:39 <Lycurgus> *router
3157 2011-04-12 22:49:44 <Lycurgus> or zero or what? afk, thanks in advance for any replies.
3158 2011-04-12 22:50:24 skreuzer has joined
3159 2011-04-12 22:50:45 da2ce7 has joined
3160 2011-04-12 22:53:59 <sipa> Lycurgus: you're 3 separate nodes
3161 2011-04-12 22:54:07 <sipa> that are not reachable from the internet
3162 2011-04-12 22:54:34 <[Noodles]> untrue, that depends on how they are connected to the rest of the network
3163 2011-04-12 22:54:58 <[Noodles]> they're only unreachable if 2 use the -connect switch
3164 2011-04-12 22:55:34 taco_the_paco has joined
3165 2011-04-12 22:57:12 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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3168 2011-04-12 23:02:14 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 1260000
3169 2011-04-12 23:02:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1260000 Khps, given current difficulty of 82347.22294654 , is 3 days, 5 hours, 58 minutes, and 17 seconds
3170 2011-04-12 23:02:47 agricocb has joined
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3172 2011-04-12 23:03:00 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik settxfee * ra619f3b46d0a bitcoind-personal/ (init.cpp main.cpp main.h rpc.cpp): Add 'settxfee' RPC, to change TX fee setting at runtime http://tinyurl.com/3zcsf42
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3175 2011-04-12 23:09:59 Xunie has joined
3176 2011-04-12 23:12:58 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3177 2011-04-12 23:18:07 da2ce7 has quit ()
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3179 2011-04-12 23:22:24 <BurtyB> yay i found a block for deepbit - guess I was a little overdue since I've been paid over 60BTC
3180 2011-04-12 23:23:06 taco_the_paco has joined
3181 2011-04-12 23:26:23 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
3182 2011-04-12 23:29:15 <Lycurgus> sipa, acknowledged. They do all seem to be updating.
3183 2011-04-12 23:42:42 LA9KSA has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3184 2011-04-12 23:48:58 <[Tycho]> BurtyB, you just found the block or just found the counter ? :)
3185 2011-04-12 23:50:39 legion050 has joined
3186 2011-04-12 23:52:02 LA9KSA has joined
3187 2011-04-12 23:52:33 <BurtyB> the block.. it was only 21:08:00 :)
3188 2011-04-12 23:53:14 <BurtyB> and that was when one of my poclbm had crashed heh
3189 2011-04-12 23:53:26 <luke-jr> jgarzik: a619f3b46d0a introduces a regression
3190 2011-04-12 23:54:55 <luke-jr> jgarzik: right now, one can -settxfee 0.00000001 without problems
3191 2011-04-12 23:55:13 <[Tycho]> BurtyB, it's marked on the stats page ?
3192 2011-04-12 23:55:23 phantomcircuit_ has joined
3193 2011-04-12 23:57:33 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * re1e262ef678b intersango/scr/sanity.sql: sanity should be using the status. http://tinyurl.com/6kw7qvo
3194 2011-04-12 23:57:34 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * r3f9266142e54 intersango/view_request.php: BUGFIX: actually deposit funds when you cancel a request. http://tinyurl.com/68n97ys
3195 2011-04-12 23:59:14 <BurtyB> [Tycho] it's in bold which I seem to remember is was what identified it
3196 2011-04-12 23:59:20 <[Tycho]> Cool.
3197 2011-04-12 23:59:46 <[Tycho]> And the counter in advanced stats shows "1" ?