1 2011-04-21 00:00:09 <tcatm> count binary -> 18,800,000 results. do we need to add binary support now?
2 2011-04-21 00:00:25 <ByteCoin> Anyone know why basic transactions with one in and two outs can vary in size between 257 and 259 bytes at least?
3 2011-04-21 00:00:40 <ByteCoin> What's varying?
4 2011-04-21 00:00:58 <luke-jr> so it's probably a reasonable guess that of the people who know what radices are, 10% can count in hex
5 2011-04-21 00:01:08 <tcatm> ByteCoin: got links to two sample tx?
6 2011-04-21 00:01:31 <ByteCoin> look at the later bits of https://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/00000000000093913df5b9e5a1d32898aebc37cf92716f119d81b21dc22ac170
7 2011-04-21 00:01:46 <iera> for me i cant do, even though i do stuff in c
8 2011-04-21 00:01:51 <iera> but if you can do it, great
9 2011-04-21 00:01:59 <iera> i would like to be able as well
10 2011-04-21 00:02:21 <ByteCoin> https://blockexplorer.com/tx/4577ecc1cecfe2c03ec6096f9744bfbe720d1f91b1666f9d78e083f892ce35d3
11 2011-04-21 00:02:29 <ByteCoin> and
12 2011-04-21 00:02:32 <ByteCoin> https://blockexplorer.com/tx/1898cb51f644da617281aebc7b32636b97dc8ee8fd9501999149452ade7078a6
13 2011-04-21 00:02:37 <tcatm> ByteCoin: hrm... I'll check the code. I have a suspicion..
14 2011-04-21 00:02:51 <ByteCoin> What's your suspicition
15 2011-04-21 00:02:53 <luke-jr> 78,700 for '+count duodecimal OR dozenal'
16 2011-04-21 00:02:56 <ByteCoin> I used to know this stuff
17 2011-04-21 00:03:00 <ByteCoin> I have fdorgotten
18 2011-04-21 00:04:11 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
19 2011-04-21 00:04:12 <tcatm> ByteCoin: iirc there are some integers that can be encoded with different lengths
20 2011-04-21 00:04:45 <ByteCoin> I know but these transactions are so elementary
21 2011-04-21 00:05:23 <ByteCoin> Most transactions have low values of the relevant integers which fit in 1 byte
22 2011-04-21 00:05:24 <tcatm> ah I think I got it
23 2011-04-21 00:05:32 <tcatm> scriptSig is encoded as a string and varies in length
24 2011-04-21 00:05:48 <ByteCoin> o_O
25 2011-04-21 00:06:09 <Kiba> hmm
26 2011-04-21 00:06:20 <sipa> how can it vary?
27 2011-04-21 00:06:23 <lfm_> like any bitcoin address can vary in length
28 2011-04-21 00:06:47 <sipa> that's just the encoding
29 2011-04-21 00:07:02 <sipa> in bitcoin transaction scripts the 160-bit hash is used
30 2011-04-21 00:07:05 <sipa> not the base58 encoding
31 2011-04-21 00:07:38 theorb has joined
32 2011-04-21 00:07:47 <lfm_> also for the coinbase inputs there is an extraNonce which can be anywhere from 1 to 6 bytes line (and maybe longer)
33 2011-04-21 00:07:51 <ByteCoin> In the two transactions I mentioned one has length 257 and the other 259. The raw mode on BBE suggests that the script sigs are the same size
34 2011-04-21 00:07:53 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
35 2011-04-21 00:07:58 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
36 2011-04-21 00:08:09 <sipa> lfm_: any string, even
37 2011-04-21 00:08:11 <sipa> technically
38 2011-04-21 00:08:21 ezl has joined
39 2011-04-21 00:08:23 <Kiba> blah
40 2011-04-21 00:08:28 <sipa> but the transactions we're talking about aren't coinbaes
41 2011-04-21 00:08:30 <Kiba> can't even produce a damn article for today
42 2011-04-21 00:09:48 <ByteCoin> Ok. I must have made a booboo. Looks like the scriptsigs are not the same size
43 2011-04-21 00:10:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: what's the best way for a Windows user to know upnp is working? telnet to port 8333 on the router?
44 2011-04-21 00:10:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: Id say so, anything that checks if the tcp gets ackd
45 2011-04-21 00:11:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: http://www.yougetsignal.com/tools/open-ports/
46 2011-04-21 00:11:29 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: some people are talking about upnp in the 0.3.21 RC thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6189.0
47 2011-04-21 00:11:32 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,stats
48 2011-04-21 00:11:50 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: that would be the thread to watch, for bug reports etc.
49 2011-04-21 00:11:50 <tcatm> we could make a webservice that connects to an IP on 8333 and dumps the version message (or an error)
50 2011-04-21 00:12:08 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: thanks, will add it to email notifications
51 2011-04-21 00:12:25 <BlueMatt> tcatm: been thinking about a green/red indicator in the client to show port forward-success
52 2011-04-21 00:12:31 <BlueMatt> it is done in several torrent clients
53 2011-04-21 00:12:49 <BlueMatt> I might go look and see how transmission does it sometime if I get the chance
54 2011-04-21 00:12:56 <tcatm> that's easy
55 2011-04-21 00:13:09 <tcatm> as soon as you see an incoming tx make it turn green
56 2011-04-21 00:13:11 <BlueMatt> tcatm: so I know what their url is (because I dont want to make one)
57 2011-04-21 00:13:15 <tcatm> incoming connection*
58 2011-04-21 00:13:18 <BlueMatt> or that too
59 2011-04-21 00:14:52 <luke-jr> jgarzik: not all routers loopback port forwards
60 2011-04-21 00:15:19 ezl has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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62 2011-04-21 00:19:00 d4de has quit (Changing host)
63 2011-04-21 00:19:00 d4de has joined
64 2011-04-21 00:23:21 * BlueMatt just incorrectly ln'd his bitcoin git repo killing it and his backup appears corrupted :(
65 2011-04-21 00:23:54 <sipa> define corrupted?
66 2011-04-21 00:24:23 <BlueMatt> git complaining that a specific object (commit) is corrupted
67 2011-04-21 00:24:56 <sipa> lot of lost work?
68 2011-04-21 00:24:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: karma? ;)
69 2011-04-21 00:25:34 * BlueMatt blames luke-jr as it occured while trying to build the bitcoin nsis script due to luke-jr's patch
70 2011-04-21 00:26:51 lulzplzkthx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
71 2011-04-21 00:31:44 lulzplzkthx has joined
72 2011-04-21 00:33:57 <BlueMatt> yes, got it
73 2011-04-21 00:36:21 wolfspraul has joined
74 2011-04-21 00:41:49 * noagendamarket wonders if you could collaborate on a novel by using github
75 2011-04-21 00:42:16 <BlueMatt> that would be the most epic use of github I've ever seen
76 2011-04-21 00:42:59 <noagendamarket> it seems logical
77 2011-04-21 00:43:25 <noagendamarket> lawyers could use it to collaborate on cases and call it writhub
78 2011-04-21 00:43:27 <noagendamarket> lol
79 2011-04-21 00:44:33 * tcatm has a git-wiki on his (far future) todo
80 2011-04-21 00:47:10 <Kiba> I wonder how many bitcoin could the bitcoin forum for its traffic?
81 2011-04-21 00:47:14 DukeOfURL has joined
82 2011-04-21 00:50:54 DoomDumas has quit ()
83 2011-04-21 00:51:16 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc 800000
84 2011-04-21 00:51:17 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 800000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 5 days, 17 hours, 43 minutes, and 7 seconds
85 2011-04-21 00:51:23 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 800000
86 2011-04-21 00:51:24 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 800000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 8.71341305358 BTC per day and 0.363058877232 BTC per hour.
87 2011-04-21 00:54:09 agricocb has joined
88 2011-04-21 00:54:31 <BlueMatt> anyone have any clue how to set the (Default) value of a Registry String via nsis?
89 2011-04-21 00:55:33 <MBS> ;;bc,gen 160000
90 2011-04-21 00:55:34 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 160000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.74268261072 BTC per day and 0.0726117754465 BTC per hour.
91 2011-04-21 00:55:39 <noagendamarket> tcatm awesome :)
92 2011-04-21 00:56:02 <noagendamarket> apparently a few other people use github for writing
93 2011-04-21 00:56:24 <MBS> lol
94 2011-04-21 00:56:36 <MBS> need to setup controls and stuff a bit more in DCS A-10
95 2011-04-21 00:56:43 <MBS> but played it a tiny bit yesterday and love it
96 2011-04-21 00:56:52 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
97 2011-04-21 00:56:53 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.1979,"low":1.13,"vol":21238,"buy":1.1421,"sell":1.159,"last":1.16}}
98 2011-04-21 00:57:01 <MBS> it isnt as hard to get aircraft going as DCS blackshark was
99 2011-04-21 00:57:25 <noagendamarket> https://github.com/blog/272-github-pages
100 2011-04-21 00:57:57 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
101 2011-04-21 00:58:56 * noagendamarket is thinking witcoin could push its content through there then people can edit anyone elses stuff by forking it
102 2011-04-21 00:58:57 DoomDumas has joined
103 2011-04-21 00:59:24 <noagendamarket> think of reddit+quora
104 2011-04-21 01:12:10 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
105 2011-04-21 01:12:12 <jaromil> nice github pages, didn't knew them
106 2011-04-21 01:12:29 <BlueMatt> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6205.0 luke-jr jgarzik tcatm
107 2011-04-21 01:12:31 <jaromil> but i use git and server-side rendering since 3-4 years now on my own server
108 2011-04-21 01:12:48 <jaromil> wonders of emacs :D
109 2011-04-21 01:12:50 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: biased poll
110 2011-04-21 01:12:56 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how so?
111 2011-04-21 01:13:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: obvious
112 2011-04-21 01:13:30 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: if it were, I would have changed it...please enlighten me
113 2011-04-21 01:13:38 <BlueMatt> I can easily edit the poll
114 2011-04-21 01:15:30 <luke-jr> it should be "Only support people who want payments in decimal" or "Support people who want payments in decimal or hexadecimal"
115 2011-04-21 01:15:54 cashplk has joined
116 2011-04-21 01:16:29 <luke-jr> or even better "Only support people who want payments in decimal, and force people to convert hexadecimal amounts" or "Support people who want payments in either decimal or hexadecimal, at no expense to each choice"
117 2011-04-21 01:16:50 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
118 2011-04-21 01:17:04 cashplk has quit (Client Quit)
119 2011-04-21 01:17:06 <luke-jr> that way it's clear this is really a man vs machine question: do we force men to conform to the machine (decimal only), or should the machine conform to men (accepting either)
120 2011-04-21 01:17:54 <tcatm> in the latter case we need to support every possible number system...
121 2011-04-21 01:18:45 <luke-jr> tcatm: only the 3 humans use for large quantities, but I have no personal immediate interest in dozenal
122 2011-04-21 01:18:53 amiller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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124 2011-04-21 01:19:44 amiller has joined
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126 2011-04-21 01:19:54 <tcatm> I hope binary isn't one of them..
127 2011-04-21 01:20:05 <luke-jr> nobody uses binary for large quantities
128 2011-04-21 01:21:18 <tcatm> amount=1010000000110111101000000 ?
129 2011-04-21 01:22:35 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
130 2011-04-21 01:27:06 BlueMatt has joined
131 2011-04-21 01:27:46 * BlueMatt is pissed he let himself stay up till 3am working on bitcoin...again, good night all
132 2011-04-21 01:27:55 <BlueMatt> deal with the forum poll yourself luke-jr
133 2011-04-21 01:28:06 BlueMatt has quit (Client Quit)
134 2011-04-21 01:31:05 <luke-jr> actually
135 2011-04-21 01:31:13 <luke-jr> these polls should be under another forum
136 2011-04-21 01:31:21 skyewm has joined
137 2011-04-21 01:32:05 <luke-jr> maybe not, dunno
138 2011-04-21 01:33:35 Kiba has joined
139 2011-04-21 01:33:42 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
140 2011-04-21 01:38:57 * luke-jr notes even properly-phrased polls *really* only tell how bigoted the community is, more than the objective superiority of the options
141 2011-04-21 01:41:40 <noagendamarket> they will either like it or not
142 2011-04-21 01:41:49 <noagendamarket> if they even understand what it means
143 2011-04-21 01:42:40 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,stats
144 2011-04-21 01:42:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 119359 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 1600 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 13 hours, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 97454.14807923
145 2011-04-21 01:43:19 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: it's not about whether people like it or not
146 2011-04-21 01:43:31 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: it's about whether they want to force Tonal users to switch to decimal
147 2011-04-21 01:47:06 <noagendamarket> tonal user
148 2011-04-21 01:47:08 <noagendamarket> lol
149 2011-04-21 01:48:29 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: plural
150 2011-04-21 01:48:52 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: although if Bitcoin is going to try to force people to switch to decimal, I may be the only tonal user to use Bitcoin
151 2011-04-21 01:49:13 <noagendamarket> why cant you have both ?
152 2011-04-21 01:49:21 <noagendamarket> just use a different client
153 2011-04-21 01:49:24 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: that's the point.
154 2011-04-21 01:49:39 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: URIs work with both, right now.
155 2011-04-21 01:49:54 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: tcatm wants to make it so it won't work for tonal
156 2011-04-21 01:50:09 <Kiba> and we don't care abot your...tonal
157 2011-04-21 01:50:31 <noagendamarket> Im sure theres a reason why
158 2011-04-21 01:50:39 <luke-jr> noagendamarket: because he's a bigot.
159 2011-04-21 01:53:38 <[Tycho]> "Only support people who want payments in decimal, and force people to convert hexadecimal amounts" - where did they get hex amounts ? There is no need for converting since everything is decimal already.
160 2011-04-21 01:54:25 prax has joined
161 2011-04-21 01:54:39 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: the ability to work with currency in Tonal can be a strong reason to get Tonal users (or Hexadecimal users) to use Bitcoin
162 2011-04-21 01:54:50 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: otherwise, why should they bother?
163 2011-04-21 01:54:53 <[Tycho]> But you are already using Bitcoin.
164 2011-04-21 01:54:58 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: I am one person.
165 2011-04-21 01:55:16 <luke-jr> and I use Bitcoin because I see its potential to be a Tonal currency
166 2011-04-21 01:55:32 <[Tycho]> But aren't you the only one tonal user ?
167 2011-04-21 01:55:36 <luke-jr> no
168 2011-04-21 01:55:58 <luke-jr> I am the only one bitcoin user, from the Tonal community's perspective.
169 2011-04-21 01:56:46 <luke-jr> both Bitcoin and Tonal are niche concepts
170 2011-04-21 01:56:55 <[Tycho]> Your poll is biased.
171 2011-04-21 01:57:11 <luke-jr> Bitcoin could provide value to the Tonal community (a native currency), while the Tonal community can reciprocate by providing value to Bitcoin (more adoption)
172 2011-04-21 01:57:14 <[Tycho]> "favours computers" and "favours humans" should be swapped
173 2011-04-21 01:57:19 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: why?
174 2011-04-21 01:57:59 <[Tycho]> Because people always use standard units in real life. Only scientists use exponents :)
175 2011-04-21 01:58:10 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: and BOTH work with the "favours humans" choice
176 2011-04-21 01:58:59 <[Tycho]> I would choose "Optionally support specifying exponent" but don't see a point for supporting exponents not. Actually it may be a possible bad thing.
177 2011-04-21 02:00:07 <[Tycho]> For example, if some software displays those amount "as is".
178 2011-04-21 02:00:22 <luke-jr> that's a problem with the software, not the URI scheme
179 2011-04-21 02:00:43 <luke-jr> and it's not like you can just add it later easily.
180 2011-04-21 02:01:25 <[Tycho]> A user may search for some goods usually sold for 110-120 BTC, then some site offers him the same for 99e2 BTC, and he don't knows what this may mean :)
181 2011-04-21 02:01:25 <luke-jr> since all the clients support it now, removing it just to add it back later would be more effort, and result in URIs breaking for people who don't upgrade in the middle
182 2011-04-21 02:01:35 <lfm_> [Tycho]: huh? what "as is" do you mean
183 2011-04-21 02:01:45 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: humans *write* URIs, but aren't supposed to read htem
184 2011-04-21 02:01:48 <[Tycho]> Where URIs are used now ?
185 2011-04-21 02:02:16 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: every bitcoin client supports URIs, once wx becomes the last with this patch
186 2011-04-21 02:02:36 <[Tycho]> No, i'm not talking about clients. I'm asking about services.
187 2011-04-21 02:02:51 <luke-jr> using URIs on the web depends on client support and people adopting Bitcoin in general
188 2011-04-21 02:03:22 <[Tycho]> Where i can see a sample in real life ?
189 2011-04-21 02:03:32 molecular has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
190 2011-04-21 02:03:47 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: in the IRC logs
191 2011-04-21 02:04:06 <[Tycho]> So if it's not used now, how can it broke ?
192 2011-04-21 02:04:46 <luke-jr> bitcoin:19ut7h2sp9jKf5dpnK36FCPGu8L1cHnPSE?amount=x1x4
193 2011-04-21 02:04:47 <luke-jr> there's one for you
194 2011-04-21 02:05:05 <lfm_> huh?
195 2011-04-21 02:05:12 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: you don't know the meaning of "broken by design"? in any case, I haven't used the word "broke" in this discussion
196 2011-04-21 02:06:06 <[Tycho]> [05:57] <luke-jr> since all the clients support it now, removing it just to add it back later would be more effort, and result in URIs breaking for people who don't upgrade in the middle
197 2011-04-21 02:06:11 <lfm_> x1x4 is broke
198 2011-04-21 02:06:15 <[Tycho]> "result in URIs breaking"
199 2011-04-21 02:06:22 <[Tycho]> You said it.
200 2011-04-21 02:06:52 <luke-jr> lfm_: nope, fully conforming and works in any compliant client
201 2011-04-21 02:07:04 <lfm_> why add it later tho? what are you taling about
202 2011-04-21 02:07:27 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: yes, if someone is using a "durr, we removed exponent support" version and clicks a URI with an exponent, it will do the wrong thing
203 2011-04-21 02:08:12 <lfm_> it will be properly rejected as non standard as it always has been
204 2011-04-21 02:08:20 <luke-jr> lfm_: it is standard
205 2011-04-21 02:08:27 <[Tycho]> Yes, but there are no URIs with exponent in real life yet.
206 2011-04-21 02:08:31 <lfm_> there is no standard yet
207 2011-04-21 02:08:32 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: sure there are
208 2011-04-21 02:08:46 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: there's one on your IRC screen right now even!
209 2011-04-21 02:09:04 <luke-jr> [Tycho]: in any case, I was talking about your "add it later" future
210 2011-04-21 02:09:09 * noagendamarket is Tone deaf
211 2011-04-21 02:09:19 <luke-jr> when people say "hey, we really do want that" and add it back in
212 2011-04-21 02:09:35 <lfm_> ok so you must support ternary values too then cuz I am gonna show you one in ten second and it will be "used" then
213 2011-04-21 02:09:37 <[Tycho]> It's IRC, not real life :)
214 2011-04-21 02:09:41 <luke-jr> then all of a sudden, the "new" URIs won't work with old clients
215 2011-04-21 02:09:54 <luke-jr> lfm_: nothing supports your ternary values
216 2011-04-21 02:10:00 <luke-jr> lfm_: everything supports the current spec
217 2011-04-21 02:10:02 <lfm_> bitcoin:19ut7h2sp9jKf5dpnK36FCPGu8L1cHnPSE?amount=b3-//-\/
218 2011-04-21 02:10:10 <luke-jr> (except js-remote I guess)
219 2011-04-21 02:10:14 <lfm_> now it is STANDARD
220 2011-04-21 02:10:31 <luke-jr> lfm_: nope, that was never part of the specification, and was never implemented
221 2011-04-21 02:10:32 <[Tycho]> Lots of people use ternary ! There are even ternary computers :)
222 2011-04-21 02:10:49 <lfm_> there is no spec, only your proposal
223 2011-04-21 02:11:19 <luke-jr> lfm_: an implemented proposal sitting happily for months becomes a standard
224 2011-04-21 02:11:34 <lfm_> i just implemeted in my 5 different user interfaces for bitcoin, havnt you seem them?
225 2011-04-21 02:11:34 <luke-jr> lfm_: even to the point that there was a bounty put up for adding it to wx
226 2011-04-21 02:12:06 <lfm_> the bounty was 100000 btc and I collected it,
227 2011-04-21 02:13:00 <lfm_> you must add it to the spec now or you will be discriminating again a vocal minority
228 2011-04-21 02:15:16 <luke-jr> lfm_: you're a troll.
229 2011-04-21 02:15:43 <lfm_> a spec no one want and everyone (except one person) ignores is no standard
230 2011-04-21 02:15:46 <[Tycho]> "You assume a glim future where people still use not only decimal, but BTC" - oh, i didn't know that all this was a joke.
231 2011-04-21 02:16:46 <luke-jr> lfm_: obviously plenty of people want it, and every client (except one) implementing it is not ignored
232 2011-04-21 02:17:12 <lfm_> my 5 clkients never implemented it
233 2011-04-21 02:17:24 * luke-jr ignores the troll
234 2011-04-21 02:17:47 <lfm_> but my 5 clients implement the spec I put up on my server 3 years ago with my 5 clients
235 2011-04-21 02:18:31 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
236 2011-04-21 02:18:43 molecular has joined
237 2011-04-21 02:18:49 <lfm_> yes, you will ignore my 5 clients and my spec for ternary (and properly so)
238 2011-04-21 02:19:21 <lfm_> but you cant see why people will ignore yours
239 2011-04-21 02:20:26 jrabbit has joined
240 2011-04-21 02:22:42 llama has joined
241 2011-04-21 02:24:37 * luke-jr notes once again that only the wx bitgots are "ignoring" it
242 2011-04-21 02:25:51 <DukeOfURL> wx?
243 2011-04-21 02:26:15 <luke-jr> DukeOfURL: the bitcoin client that is on bitcoin.org presently
244 2011-04-21 02:26:28 <DukeOfURL> k
245 2011-04-21 02:26:34 <lfm_> DukeOfURL: wx widgets is a package used by bitcoin
246 2011-04-21 02:26:57 <luke-jr> I should finish up a Windows release of Spesmilo to challenge their marketshare.
247 2011-04-21 02:27:07 <lfm_> DukeOfURL: in other word the package that almost everyone uses
248 2011-04-21 02:27:22 <DukeOfURL> k
249 2011-04-21 02:29:27 <luke-jr> in the meantime, Bitcoin bigots will ignore Tonal because they don't use it, and Tonal users will ignore Bitcoin because they see nothing to gain
250 2011-04-21 02:29:38 <luke-jr> it's no better than USD or EUR
251 2011-04-21 02:29:53 <jgarzik> I think bitcoin will survive
252 2011-04-21 02:30:39 <Blitzboom> damn, no tonal users?
253 2011-04-21 02:31:27 <DukeOfURL> i though i saw a guy with 16 fingers over there...
254 2011-04-21 02:31:31 <doublec> how many tonal users are there?
255 2011-04-21 02:31:48 <luke-jr> doublec: nobody's counted lately
256 2011-04-21 02:34:59 johnlockwood has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
257 2011-04-21 02:38:04 <appamatto> Is tonal a bitcoin competitor?
258 2011-04-21 02:38:15 <doublec> no, tonal is a numbering system
259 2011-04-21 02:38:39 <doublec> appamatto: http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/tonal-system/10991091
260 2011-04-21 02:39:09 <appamatto> Nice!
261 2011-04-21 02:39:16 <appamatto> I've wanted to do hexidecimal math
262 2011-04-21 02:39:28 <doublec> you and luke-jr should get along just fine :)
263 2011-04-21 02:39:38 <appamatto> haha
264 2011-04-21 02:40:02 <appamatto> or octal
265 2011-04-21 02:40:12 <appamatto> We need to learn the language of our overlords
266 2011-04-21 02:40:54 <DukeOfURL> are any of you old enough to remember shillings, pence, farthings, etc.?
267 2011-04-21 02:41:14 <appamatto> Read those terms in books
268 2011-04-21 02:41:15 <DukeOfURL> well, they changed it to a decimal system
269 2011-04-21 02:41:34 <luke-jr> DukeOfURL: worst mistake ever
270 2011-04-21 02:41:43 <lfm_> yup, not many people realize the computers took over the world way back in the 1960s
271 2011-04-21 02:42:16 <DukeOfURL> well, computers took over check processing in the 60s
272 2011-04-21 02:42:36 <DukeOfURL> but the Apollo missions were analog
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274 2011-04-21 02:42:45 <lfm_> it was back then it was noticed that the finacial system was so relient on mag OCR coded cheques and so many were being used that it was impossible already to handle them by humans
275 2011-04-21 02:43:28 <DukeOfURL> it would have taken the entire population to handle checks during the 60s. This was before BankAmericard.
276 2011-04-21 02:43:46 <DukeOfURL> s'handle'process'
277 2011-04-21 02:46:26 <lfm_> DukeOfURL: appolo also had digital computers
278 2011-04-21 02:46:37 <lfm_> apollo
279 2011-04-21 02:46:57 <DukeOfURL> yes, 7090 and 7030Stretch that sat on the ground
280 2011-04-21 02:47:44 <DukeOfURL> IBM computers of the day
281 2011-04-21 02:48:28 <lfm_> I thot they has a "mini" onboard too but I may be confusing with the early shuttle computer
282 2011-04-21 02:49:20 <DukeOfURL> As I recall, the shuttle has five computers. Each checks the results of the others. They have/had a very odd word size--18 bits?
283 2011-04-21 02:49:59 <lfm_> not so odd, 18 and 36 bit words used to be much more common
284 2011-04-21 02:50:01 <DukeOfURL> As I understand, each phase of the flight required a reload of a program. There was the launch program, orbit program, etc.
285 2011-04-21 02:50:32 <DukeOfURL> 36 bits in 7090 in GE735/Honeywell 6000.
286 2011-04-21 02:50:52 <lfm_> univac 1100 series which I actually worked on
287 2011-04-21 02:51:17 <DukeOfURL> In the early to mid 60s it was all core memory. Sense amps that required adjustment, etc.
288 2011-04-21 02:51:31 <DukeOfURL> 36bits was a BIG memory
289 2011-04-21 02:51:34 <lfm_> then the cdc 6000 series had the big "supercomputer" 60 bit words
290 2011-04-21 02:51:52 <DukeOfURL> yikes
291 2011-04-21 02:51:58 <DukeOfURL> expensive
292 2011-04-21 02:52:11 <lfm_> yup a whole 65k words
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295 2011-04-21 02:53:42 <DukeOfURL> I remember the IBM1620. A decimal machine. Did table lookups to do adds and multiplies.
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297 2011-04-21 02:54:36 <DukeOfURL> But it had floating point, which was a big deal in the early 60s. ONe could sit there and watch it do a FP divide on the lights. :-)
298 2011-04-21 02:55:23 <RenaKunisaki> and instead of punch cards you chiseled zeros and ones into rock slabs? :p
299 2011-04-21 02:55:29 <DukeOfURL> heh
300 2011-04-21 02:55:49 <RenaKunisaki> get one of those mining Bitcoins, see how long it takes to generate a block
301 2011-04-21 02:56:34 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: http://www.icfpcontest.org/contact.shtml
302 2011-04-21 02:56:41 <DukeOfURL> Honeywell came out with a floating point processor in the late 60s. No error checking. Ralston Purina bought one to mix feed. One day, 6 million chickens died.
303 2011-04-21 02:56:53 <RenaKunisaki> o.o
304 2011-04-21 02:57:00 <DukeOfURL> not a good day for honeywell
305 2011-04-21 02:57:34 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: http://www.icfpcontest.org just this
306 2011-04-21 02:58:00 robotarmy has joined
307 2011-04-21 02:58:01 <lfm_> the ultimate machine that uses the tablets
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311 2011-04-21 02:58:41 <RenaKunisaki> hmm don't see much there
312 2011-04-21 02:59:02 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: try http://www.icfpcontest.org/contact.shtml
313 2011-04-21 02:59:12 <lfm_> sorry wrong again
314 2011-04-21 03:00:03 <lfm_> rena http://www.boundvariable.org/
315 2011-04-21 03:00:57 <RenaKunisaki> haha nice
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320 2011-04-21 03:04:50 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: one of the main jokes was their civilization collapsed due to year 200bc bugs
321 2011-04-21 03:04:56 <RenaKunisaki> lol
322 2011-04-21 03:05:28 <RenaKunisaki> that pesky Y-0.2K
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324 2011-04-21 03:07:28 <lfm_> cmu did some amazing software for the project all running on their clay tablet machine spec that the contestants has to write an emultor for to run the sample programs to find more clues
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346 2011-04-21 03:43:36 <Kiba> ;;getrating kiba
347 2011-04-21 03:43:37 <gribble> User Kiba, with hostmask None, was created on Wed Apr 20 17:30:04 2011, and has a cumulative rating of 2, from a total of 1 ratings. Of these, 1 are positive and 0 are negative. This user has also sent 0 positive ratings, and 0 negative ratings to others.
348 2011-04-21 03:53:13 mmoya has joined
349 2011-04-21 03:53:44 <gjs278> [Tycho] kick these new people out of the pool
350 2011-04-21 03:53:52 <gjs278> they're flooding into my precious percentage
351 2011-04-21 03:54:56 <luke-jr> lol
352 2011-04-21 03:55:31 <tcatm> start your own subpool and you can have 100%
353 2011-04-21 03:57:44 <[Tycho]> Oh, someone didn't switched off percentage display ? :)
354 2011-04-21 03:57:59 <[Tycho]> How many % do you have ?
355 2011-04-21 03:59:24 <luke-jr> gjs278: I'll probably start a new pool soon
356 2011-04-21 03:59:50 <[Tycho]> Hmm, may be i should allow users to set nicknames :)
357 2011-04-21 04:00:36 <[Tycho]> For top10 most effective users :) Or top10 stale submitters :)
358 2011-04-21 04:00:52 <[Tycho]> And for comments in pool's blog.
359 2011-04-21 04:01:14 <gjs278> I'm like .28 now
360 2011-04-21 04:01:17 <gjs278> I used to be .50
361 2011-04-21 04:01:31 <gjs278> and would get like 20 cents a block
362 2011-04-21 04:01:35 <gjs278> now I'm getting 9 - 11
363 2011-04-21 04:01:44 <[Tycho]> Buy more 5970s
364 2011-04-21 04:01:45 <echelon> that's the problem with cooperatives, the people who have been there before want to preserve their share
365 2011-04-21 04:02:14 <gjs278> I need one of those 1x to 16x things
366 2011-04-21 04:02:14 <luke-jr> gjs278: but how many more blocks are you getting?
367 2011-04-21 04:02:20 <[Tycho]> The profit doesn't depends on number of users.
368 2011-04-21 04:02:40 <[Tycho]> gjs278, http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6128.0
369 2011-04-21 04:02:40 <gjs278> I'm officially leeching at this point
370 2011-04-21 04:02:49 <gjs278> I've found 2 blocks, have received about 115 coins
371 2011-04-21 04:03:00 <gjs278> there we go
372 2011-04-21 04:03:06 <gjs278> if I have that I could fit another card
373 2011-04-21 04:03:13 <[Tycho]> (not tested)
374 2011-04-21 04:03:28 <gjs278> yeah I'll look around
375 2011-04-21 04:03:33 <echelon> so if a 100 new miners joined, it wouldn't have an affect on the amount each person would get?
376 2011-04-21 04:03:33 toffoo has joined
377 2011-04-21 04:04:11 <gjs278> well I used to get like 40 cents a block, but the difficulty was lower so that's why
378 2011-04-21 04:04:24 <gjs278> this was when deepbit was like 60ghash
379 2011-04-21 04:04:36 <gjs278> now it's at least 100 more than that
380 2011-04-21 04:04:50 <gjs278> 40 cents a block at the same rate***
381 2011-04-21 04:04:55 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
382 2011-04-21 04:05:33 <gjs278> = 3.37 BTC in last 24h with a 5870 and 3 xeon cpu miners shooting away
383 2011-04-21 04:06:35 <[Tycho]> echelon, no.
384 2011-04-21 04:08:09 has joined
385 2011-04-21 04:08:59 <echelon> oh, i was assuming if the 100 miners didn't have any output
386 2011-04-21 04:09:03 <echelon> got it
387 2011-04-21 04:09:04 <[Tycho]> Today's luck was around -10%, so it means that on average you'll get 3.7 BTC
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391 2011-04-21 04:14:36 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: er, dude
392 2011-04-21 04:14:40 <Diablo-D3> turn your cpu miners off
393 2011-04-21 04:14:45 <Diablo-D3> thats a waste of time and money
394 2011-04-21 04:14:49 <gjs278> no
395 2011-04-21 04:14:58 <gjs278> the guy at work and I are splitting them
396 2011-04-21 04:15:10 <gjs278> they do movie encoding for most of their cycles
397 2011-04-21 04:15:30 <gjs278> but if the queue is empty, mother nature gets raped in favor of .01 bitcoins
398 2011-04-21 04:15:44 Tarlusk has joined
399 2011-04-21 04:15:54 <gjs278> it was a nice transition from folding@home anyways
400 2011-04-21 04:17:46 <gjs278> I'm disappointed in the hyperthreading though
401 2011-04-21 04:18:08 <gjs278> get the exact same with 12 threads as 6 threads
402 2011-04-21 04:18:18 <lfm_> I think most people were disappointed in the hyperthreading
403 2011-04-21 04:18:38 <grbgout> hmm, why does getaccountaddress create a new address for the account?
404 2011-04-21 04:18:56 <lfm_> thats what its for
405 2011-04-21 04:19:17 <grbgout> lfm_: not according to the help... or intuition: getaccountaddress <account> Returns the current bitcoin address for receiving payments to this account.
406 2011-04-21 04:19:32 <grbgout> lfm_: I would assume that would be the behavior of getnewaddress
407 2011-04-21 04:19:58 <doublec> grbgout: it gives an address for the account that is always the same, until a payment is received, then it returns a different address
408 2011-04-21 04:21:07 <grbgout> doublec: what miner are you using for namecoin?
409 2011-04-21 04:21:25 <grbgout> I just saw "[2011-04-21 00:14:13] PROOF OF WORK RESULT: false (booooo)" from jgarzik's cpuminer T_T
410 2011-04-21 04:21:35 <gjs278> I've gotten that before
411 2011-04-21 04:21:56 <grbgout> just got another...
412 2011-04-21 04:22:48 <gjs278> I've been doing 925 for 2 days and 19 hours straight now, time to try 950 again
413 2011-04-21 04:22:59 <grbgout> ?
414 2011-04-21 04:23:08 <gjs278> for gpu speed
415 2011-04-21 04:23:12 <gjs278> I crash at 950 sometimes
416 2011-04-21 04:23:16 <doublec> grbgout: poclbm
417 2011-04-21 04:23:16 <jgarzik> grbgout: turn on debugging (-D) to see if that is due to hash < target
418 2011-04-21 04:23:38 <gjs278> poclbm is slower than jgarzik's for cpu
419 2011-04-21 04:23:43 <grbgout> jgarzik: will do, and wow the 4way sure does improve things
420 2011-04-21 04:23:45 <gjs278> like half a megahash for me
421 2011-04-21 04:24:01 <gjs278> what processor do you have
422 2011-04-21 04:24:10 <gjs278> sse2_64 was much faster for me than 4way
423 2011-04-21 04:24:12 <jgarzik> grbgout: it's also possible someone pointed lots of GPU at namecoin, and blocks are being generated rapidly. that would cause 'false' return value, due to stale work.
424 2011-04-21 04:25:14 <grbgout> gjs278: I've gained about 450khash with 4way
425 2011-04-21 04:25:24 <gjs278> are you amd or intel
426 2011-04-21 04:25:46 <lfm_> ya 4way is still fastest on my phenom II
427 2011-04-21 04:25:46 <grbgout> gjs278: amd, and 100khash on another cpu (different machine)
428 2011-04-21 04:25:54 <gjs278> yeah I figured
429 2011-04-21 04:26:28 <grbgout> gjs278: I tried the sse2_64 first, since I'm on a 64bit proc
430 2011-04-21 04:26:30 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
431 2011-04-21 04:26:37 <gjs278> sse2 is for the intels
432 2011-04-21 04:26:54 <gjs278> the _64 is there to mislead you
433 2011-04-21 04:26:58 <grbgout> ;)
434 2011-04-21 04:27:05 <grbgout> Is there an algo specifically for AMDs?
435 2011-04-21 04:27:44 <lfm_> 4way was written on amd even if it runs ok on other machines
436 2011-04-21 04:27:59 <grbgout> i see
437 2011-04-21 04:28:10 * Kiba attempts to develop the bitcoin extension for chromium further
438 2011-04-21 04:28:20 tcoppi has joined
439 2011-04-21 04:28:20 <gjs278> whats the extension do
440 2011-04-21 04:28:33 <Kiba> let you send bitcoin
441 2011-04-21 04:28:55 <gjs278> how could that even work unless it connected to a running bitcoin process
442 2011-04-21 04:29:03 <Kiba> it is
443 2011-04-21 04:29:05 <doublec> grbgout: I get the false work result on cpuminer too
444 2011-04-21 04:29:29 <gjs278> not much of an extension in that case...
445 2011-04-21 04:29:53 <gjs278> I mean it's got some use, but requires you to run a program for it, I can't think of any other extension I have in my browser that requires that
446 2011-04-21 04:30:22 <Kiba> gjs278: anyway, that's why I am trying to develop it further
447 2011-04-21 04:30:32 <gjs278> yeah step process I guess
448 2011-04-21 04:30:33 <Kiba> but I lack knowledge about chrome's API
449 2011-04-21 04:30:41 <gjs278> first make it work with a running background and json away
450 2011-04-21 04:30:49 <gjs278> and then see where it goes
451 2011-04-21 04:31:50 robotarmy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
452 2011-04-21 04:31:51 <da2ce7> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6219.0
453 2011-04-21 04:31:55 <da2ce7> I have mad a better poll
454 2011-04-21 04:31:59 <da2ce7> *made
455 2011-04-21 04:32:30 <RenaKunisaki> www.bitcoin.org uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed. The certificate is only valid for Bitcoin
456 2011-04-21 04:32:32 <RenaKunisaki> that normal?
457 2011-04-21 04:32:46 <da2ce7> yep, bitcoin.org uses a self signed
458 2011-04-21 04:32:49 <RenaKunisaki> k
459 2011-04-21 04:32:50 <Diablo-D3> yes thats normal
460 2011-04-21 04:32:50 <gjs278> good
461 2011-04-21 04:32:54 <gjs278> fuck paying for certificates
462 2011-04-21 04:33:31 <gjs278> anyways, this poll is biased. look at the topic number. 6219.0. decimal. make the topic number in tonal and I'll consider even *looking* at it
463 2011-04-21 04:34:02 <RenaKunisaki> agreed. I just have a policy of always getting at least one confirmation before accepting any "invalid" cert :p
464 2011-04-21 04:34:13 <grbgout> gjs278: -_-
465 2011-04-21 04:34:44 <gjs278> how do I express 278 in tonal. I want that to be my new nickname
466 2011-04-21 04:34:55 <gjs278> I'm tired of living with these shackles
467 2011-04-21 04:34:57 <da2ce7> gjs278, you can always send sirius a patch
468 2011-04-21 04:36:48 <Kiba> yay! success
469 2011-04-21 04:36:59 * Kiba is able to create a chrome tab
470 2011-04-21 04:37:28 <luke-jr> gjs278: you don't need to pay for certs
471 2011-04-21 04:37:46 <gjs278> the browser providers don't include all of them though
472 2011-04-21 04:37:49 <gjs278> as trusted providers
473 2011-04-21 04:37:58 <luke-jr> Startcom is pretty well-included
474 2011-04-21 04:39:09 <luke-jr> da2ce7: omg let's create 500 redundant pollzâ¼â¼â¼â¼11111111oneone
475 2011-04-21 04:39:47 <RenaKunisaki> are people talking about actually using base 16 to represent Bitcoin amounts?
476 2011-04-21 04:40:07 <RenaKunisaki> like if I have 90 bitcoins and I get 10 more I now have A0?
477 2011-04-21 04:40:37 <doublec> s/people/1 person/
478 2011-04-21 04:40:41 <RenaKunisaki> heh
479 2011-04-21 04:40:43 <grbgout> RenaKunisaki: presuming both values are representing hex....
480 2011-04-21 04:40:57 <grbgout> s/representing/represented in/
481 2011-04-21 04:41:14 <RenaKunisaki> good luck getting the general public to accept that
482 2011-04-21 04:41:37 * Kiba is appalled by the original developer's tendency to duplicate code
483 2011-04-21 04:41:38 zyb has joined
484 2011-04-21 04:41:42 <Kiba> Don't Repeat Yourself man!
485 2011-04-21 04:41:57 <RenaKunisaki> 4/3 of people can't even handle simple fractions, negative numbers, etc, but let's start up a non-base-10 currency system
486 2011-04-21 04:42:12 <grbgout> RenaKunisaki: don't forget fractions. ;)
487 2011-04-21 04:42:18 <grbgout> d'oh
488 2011-04-21 04:42:22 <RenaKunisaki> :p
489 2011-04-21 04:42:27 <grbgout> read "simple fractions" as "simple functions"
490 2011-04-21 04:43:06 <da2ce7> I like the idea of using fractions for expressing bitcoin... you can then send 1/3 BTC :)
491 2011-04-21 04:43:22 <grbgout> hah
492 2011-04-21 04:43:23 skeledrew has joined
493 2011-04-21 04:43:23 <RenaKunisaki> oh helllll no
494 2011-04-21 04:44:02 <Kiba> the codebase is a disorganized mess
495 2011-04-21 04:45:40 <sacarlson> how this for my new proto coin pszTimestamp="21/Apr/11 New York Times, Apple faced questions on Wednesday about the security of its iPhone and iPad after a report that the devices regularly record their locations in a hidden file."
496 2011-04-21 04:45:47 RazielZ has joined
497 2011-04-21 04:45:50 <grbgout> hmm, why was namecoin started at a difficulty of 512?
498 2011-04-21 04:45:56 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: it's not for the "general public"
499 2011-04-21 04:46:19 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: and no, 90 BTC is 21871.19 TBC
500 2011-04-21 04:46:30 <RenaKunisaki> why not? I'd love to pay for my groceries in bitcoins
501 2011-04-21 04:46:41 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: because 90 BTC is really 9,000,000,000 bitcoin units
502 2011-04-21 04:47:06 <noagendamarket> sacarlson nice :)
503 2011-04-21 04:47:16 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: converted to tonal, 218711900
504 2011-04-21 04:47:26 <luke-jr> and TBC are that / 1,0000
505 2011-04-21 04:47:29 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: not too long?
506 2011-04-21 04:47:29 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
507 2011-04-21 04:47:31 <RenaKunisaki> yeah that won't confuse people at all
508 2011-04-21 04:47:38 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: if you don't like it, use BTC
509 2011-04-21 04:47:44 warpi has joined
510 2011-04-21 04:47:55 <luke-jr> RenaKunisaki: nobody's forcing you to use TBC
511 2011-04-21 04:48:10 <da2ce7> we should express bitcoin by two unsigned 32bit ints A/B that will allow for any number from 4,294,967,295 to 1/4,294,967,295 where 1/1 = 1BTC
512 2011-04-21 04:48:32 <noagendamarket> sacarlson no
513 2011-04-21 04:48:38 <noagendamarket> its a headline
514 2011-04-21 04:48:40 <noagendamarket> :)
515 2011-04-21 04:48:43 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: thanks
516 2011-04-21 04:48:54 <luke-jr> da2ce7: that encoding is too redundant
517 2011-04-21 04:49:10 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it would make your 1BTC encodable in 256 different ways
518 2011-04-21 04:49:12 sc8nt4u has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
519 2011-04-21 04:49:21 <da2ce7> luke-jr, so?
520 2011-04-21 04:50:02 <luke-jr> da2ce7: more problematic, is that there is no way to represent many current values in it
521 2011-04-21 04:50:28 <luke-jr> it's essentially a low-precision floating point
522 2011-04-21 04:51:17 <da2ce7> it is fixed-precision, you don't have any rounding issues.
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527 2011-04-21 04:54:54 <doublec> grbgout: probably a comprimise between allowing cpu miners to get somewhere and not having some gpu run away with tons of blocks early
528 2011-04-21 04:55:18 eternal1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
529 2011-04-21 04:55:28 <grbgout> doublec: yeah, good point.
530 2011-04-21 04:55:48 <warpi> what does SEPA mean?
531 2011-04-21 04:56:03 <warpi> it is in the content of transmitting EUR between banks....
532 2011-04-21 04:57:58 eps2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
533 2011-04-21 05:00:54 <sacarlson> so I note that if you were to use bitcoin proto coin to trade in corporation you could just create all the coins you planed to sell shares in and then set the MAX_MONEY to the number of total coins already created and then it should auto start charging fee's?
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535 2011-04-21 05:05:42 <doublec> jgarzik: message from cpuminer when running against namecoind is TrgVal? no (false positive; hash > target)
536 2011-04-21 05:06:00 <doublec> jgarzik: Target: 00000000007fff00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
537 2011-04-21 05:06:02 xlogik has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
538 2011-04-21 05:06:15 <doublec> jgarzik: Proof: 00000000338b10e77195f86ea8c225862ec85bea74b2f98dd41db1b9e2076695
539 2011-04-21 05:06:21 cosurgi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
540 2011-04-21 05:07:27 cosurgi has joined
541 2011-04-21 05:07:48 eternal1 has joined
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543 2011-04-21 05:10:28 B0g4r7 has joined
544 2011-04-21 05:12:43 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it's as "fixed precision" as doubles are
545 2011-04-21 05:13:42 <luke-jr> da2ce7: all a double is, is a 48-bit numerator and a 15-bit denominator expressed as an exponent
546 2011-04-21 05:14:07 <luke-jr> (bitcounts might be off, but that's beside the point)
547 2011-04-21 05:15:45 TD has joined
548 2011-04-21 05:17:49 warpi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
549 2011-04-21 05:18:34 <da2ce7> luke-jr, you cannot send 55/3 BTC to sombody with double as the sliding factor is not arbitrary
550 2011-04-21 05:33:10 <luke-jr> da2ce7: it's because the denominator is encoded as a mere exponent
551 2011-04-21 05:33:26 <luke-jr> unrelated to the floating-point-ness
552 2011-04-21 05:42:36 dissipate has joined
553 2011-04-21 05:50:53 skeledrew has joined
554 2011-04-21 05:52:13 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r54 /trunk/tests/com/google/bitcoin/core/ECKeyTest.java:
555 2011-04-21 05:52:14 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: Test that you can sign with the roundtrip key and verify with the original key, and vice versa.
556 2011-04-21 05:52:14 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: See http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/detail?r=51
557 2011-04-21 05:52:14 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: Patch from Thilo Planz.y
558 2011-04-21 05:53:00 <jgarzik> doublec: well, there ya go...
559 2011-04-21 05:53:13 <jgarzik> doublec: target on namecoin is quite high apparently
560 2011-04-21 05:53:58 luke-jr has joined
561 2011-04-21 05:57:43 <Kiba> what will I do with 1274129 hashes per sect against 512?
562 2011-04-21 05:57:56 * Kiba hopes to get lucky
563 2011-04-21 05:58:34 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
564 2011-04-21 06:01:23 Netsniper has joined
565 2011-04-21 06:04:33 ForceDestroyer has joined
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567 2011-04-21 06:07:49 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
568 2011-04-21 06:07:58 Kicchiri has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
569 2011-04-21 06:11:31 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r55 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs):
570 2011-04-21 06:11:31 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: Replace for loop with an iterator to make the removal case clearer. Extend the unit test a bit.
571 2011-04-21 06:11:31 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: This code will all be changing more in future anyway.
572 2011-04-21 06:12:36 <gjs278> what's bitcoinj
573 2011-04-21 06:13:38 <witten> gjs278: java implementation of bitcoin by a google dev
574 2011-04-21 06:13:42 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@ishibashi.dashjr.org|Google Bitcoin client
575 2011-04-21 06:14:02 <witten> not official google release.. just a dev's 20% time project
576 2011-04-21 06:16:59 phantomcircuit has joined
577 2011-04-21 06:18:05 <gjs278> I don't have enough virtual memory leftover to run such a thing
578 2011-04-21 06:18:15 <gjs278> I'm sure it will only use 6gb after 20 minutes
579 2011-04-21 06:20:31 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
580 2011-04-21 06:20:31 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
581 2011-04-21 06:20:34 has joined
582 2011-04-21 06:26:28 <RenaKunisaki> I'm wondering how feasible it is for a large attacker (say the US government) to gain >50% of the network's processing power by forcing people off the network
583 2011-04-21 06:26:49 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
584 2011-04-21 06:26:52 <RenaKunisaki> get ISPs nationwide to start blocking Bitcoin or even disconnecting people entirely so that 50% is a smaller number
585 2011-04-21 06:27:28 <RenaKunisaki> or a virus that knocks everyone's nodes offline or gets them to stop processing
586 2011-04-21 06:28:18 <noagendamarket> we should point all the pools at the US gov and knock it offline if thats the case
587 2011-04-21 06:28:20 <noagendamarket> :)
588 2011-04-21 06:28:31 <noagendamarket> ddos ftw
589 2011-04-21 06:28:31 <RenaKunisaki> lol
590 2011-04-21 06:28:33 <noagendamarket> lol
591 2011-04-21 06:28:38 <noagendamarket> its only fair
592 2011-04-21 06:28:42 <RenaKunisaki> how do you communicate a mass DDoS if you're disconnected though
593 2011-04-21 06:28:48 <gjs278> well
594 2011-04-21 06:28:51 <noagendamarket> hrm
595 2011-04-21 06:28:57 <gjs278> I don't think isps would shutdown bitcoin connections
596 2011-04-21 06:29:03 <gjs278> they didnt' even shutdown connections to online poker
597 2011-04-21 06:29:06 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@ishibashi.dashjr.org|lol
598 2011-04-21 06:29:10 <noagendamarket> loic
599 2011-04-21 06:29:31 <jgarzik> RenaKunisaki: transactions and block chain updates would leak out
600 2011-04-21 06:29:44 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@ishibashi.dashjr.org|they block everything else...
601 2011-04-21 06:29:46 <gjs278> they didnt even shutdown liberty dollar websites
602 2011-04-21 06:29:52 <gjs278> and those were actually printed currency
603 2011-04-21 06:29:58 <gjs278> they just arrested the guy doing it
604 2011-04-21 06:30:02 <gjs278> and took all of his ron paul bucks
605 2011-04-21 06:30:38 <RenaKunisaki> yeah, well in cases like that it's easier to shut down the source
606 2011-04-21 06:30:46 <gjs278> liberty dollars was actually quite the scam
607 2011-04-21 06:30:50 <RenaKunisaki> and people would be pretty upset if you just started disconnecting them for no good reason
608 2011-04-21 06:30:53 <gjs278> it was backed by silver but you didn't get the full amount
609 2011-04-21 06:30:59 <gjs278> you'd get like $16 out of $20 or something dumb
610 2011-04-21 06:31:28 <gjs278> liberty dollars is the best project ever because is scammed people trying to stick it to the man
611 2011-04-21 06:31:30 <RenaKunisaki> but I'm thinking of a theoretical situation where a tyrannical dictator wants to attack the network and doesn't give a damn about your freedoms and rights
612 2011-04-21 06:31:36 <gjs278> I'm not
613 2011-04-21 06:31:44 <RenaKunisaki> maybe China for example
614 2011-04-21 06:32:01 <noagendamarket> have they blocked bittorrent yet ?
615 2011-04-21 06:32:28 <gjs278> only if you search for freedom.torrent
616 2011-04-21 06:33:05 <gjs278> I hate the youtube page for video deleted or whatever
617 2011-04-21 06:33:06 <gjs278> so much
618 2011-04-21 06:33:26 <gjs278> that smiley face makes me want to punch my monitor
619 2011-04-21 06:33:33 <gjs278> REMOVE THE THUMBNAIL IF THE VIDEO IS NO GOOD GOOGLE
620 2011-04-21 06:33:49 <gjs278> and why is everything whited out
621 2011-04-21 06:33:58 <gjs278> it makes it looklike my browser didnt finish loading the age
622 2011-04-21 06:34:09 <RenaKunisaki> hmm, couple times I saw videos get "removed" on Youtube
623 2011-04-21 06:34:15 <RenaKunisaki> but really just the ID changed
624 2011-04-21 06:34:19 <gjs278> like this
625 2011-04-21 06:34:20 <gjs278> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npZ6SeWJR_I&
626 2011-04-21 06:34:22 <gjs278> wtf
627 2011-04-21 06:34:23 <gjs278> why all the white space
628 2011-04-21 06:34:27 <gjs278> what did I do to deserve that
629 2011-04-21 06:34:28 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-252-19-245.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
630 2011-04-21 06:34:34 <RenaKunisaki> you'd bookmark it, have it in a playlist or whatever and you come back later and it says video removed
631 2011-04-21 06:34:53 <RenaKunisaki> but later, you stumble upon the exact same video, with all the same comments (even ones you left) on it, under a different ID
632 2011-04-21 06:34:55 <gjs278> I've had that happen for some guy who recorded himself playing all of metal gear 4
633 2011-04-21 06:34:57 <gjs278> well
634 2011-04-21 06:34:59 <gjs278> every metal gear
635 2011-04-21 06:35:03 <gjs278> but he got removed because he recorded 4
636 2011-04-21 06:35:11 <gjs278> I never found it again though
637 2011-04-21 06:35:49 <gjs278> except some hero recorded himself doing it again on justin.tv
638 2011-04-21 06:36:00 <gjs278> and I was able to retrieve all 20 hours of it through their archives
639 2011-04-21 06:45:47 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
640 2011-04-21 06:46:20 <sacarlson> my new proto bitcoin seems to be finaly working. I will be distributing a procedure in my next git release that will include a simple method to create new bitcoin proto coins without the need to recompile, this version will also allow you to transact on different coins without recompile
641 2011-04-21 06:46:36 fimp has joined
642 2011-04-21 06:46:50 gjs278 has joined
643 2011-04-21 06:48:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * reb0030412834 pushpool/db-mysql.c: db-mysql: automatically reconnect, if server cxn dies. also, enable zlib. http://tinyurl.com/3ujnn62
644 2011-04-21 06:48:10 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik * rf2856225b8c9 pushpool/configure.ac: Version 0.3. http://tinyurl.com/6egcvwr
645 2011-04-21 06:48:13 <sacarlson> I plan to later modify the first 4 leters of an address to identify to the client software and the human looking at the number what network is needed to use to transact
646 2011-04-21 06:52:07 <gjs278> pushpool is ridiculous, don't try and name projects after a method of setting up fans
647 2011-04-21 06:53:21 DavidSJ has joined
648 2011-04-21 06:55:09 DavidSJ has quit (Client Quit)
649 2011-04-21 06:58:08 TheAncientGoat has joined
650 2011-04-21 06:58:46 epicurus has joined
651 2011-04-21 06:58:54 MartianW has joined
652 2011-04-21 06:58:58 <epicurus> hey
653 2011-04-21 06:59:24 <epicurus> big crowd here
654 2011-04-21 07:00:21 <gjs278> asl
655 2011-04-21 07:00:44 MartianW has quit (Client Quit)
656 2011-04-21 07:01:14 <epicurus> really?
657 2011-04-21 07:07:00 khalahan_ has joined
658 2011-04-21 07:07:14 FreeMoney has joined
659 2011-04-21 07:07:30 <FreeMoney> mtgox error?
660 2011-04-21 07:08:50 <lfm_> ;;bc,mtgox
661 2011-04-21 07:08:51 <gribble> Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111
662 2011-04-21 07:09:02 <ArtForz> yup, mtgox is down
663 2011-04-21 07:10:25 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
664 2011-04-21 07:11:59 <topi`> ouch
665 2011-04-21 07:16:17 <ArtForz> and back up
666 2011-04-21 07:17:18 <lfm_> ;;bc,mtgox
667 2011-04-21 07:17:19 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.1869,"low":1.13,"vol":16748,"buy":1.1411,"sell":1.15,"last":1.1411}}
668 2011-04-21 07:19:56 dotblank has joined
669 2011-04-21 07:20:14 <dotblank> Why is the payload message size packet little endian?
670 2011-04-21 07:20:51 <ArtForz> ?
671 2011-04-21 07:20:56 <ArtForz> pretty much everything is LE
672 2011-04-21 07:21:41 <dotblank> not for network traffic usually
673 2011-04-21 07:21:50 <ArtForz> it is for bitcoin
674 2011-04-21 07:21:55 <dotblank> ughs.. writing a client for ARM so i'm going to have to convert them
675 2011-04-21 07:22:33 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure I know, wrote a p2p packet parser/builder in python
676 2011-04-21 07:23:11 <sacarlson> ok this is what I got so far to document creating new genesis block coins https://github.com/sacarlson/bitcoin
677 2011-04-21 07:23:39 <dotblank> just to make sure.. no one has created a bitcoin c library yet
678 2011-04-21 07:24:25 <ArtForz> I don't think so
679 2011-04-21 07:24:54 <dotblank> ok good.. I think I might write one in c using libevent
680 2011-04-21 07:29:51 <dotblank> "The Internet Protocol defines big-endian as the standard network byte order used for all numeric values in the packet headers and by many higher level protocols and file formats that are designed for use over IP."
681 2011-04-21 07:30:18 <dotblank> have to rewrite ntohs and the like
682 2011-04-21 07:30:49 <ArtForz> ?
683 2011-04-21 07:31:15 <ArtForz> whatever
684 2011-04-21 07:31:17 <Diablo-D3> oh and btw
685 2011-04-21 07:31:20 <Diablo-D3> my mining protocol
686 2011-04-21 07:31:23 <Diablo-D3> will be in big endian
687 2011-04-21 07:31:27 <dotblank> :)
688 2011-04-21 07:31:37 <ArtForz> great, so 99% of miners have to byteswap shit for no reason.
689 2011-04-21 07:31:53 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: no
690 2011-04-21 07:31:55 <Diablo-D3> on my miner
691 2011-04-21 07:31:58 <Diablo-D3> which is x86
692 2011-04-21 07:31:58 <dotblank> its x86 that has to byteswap for no reason
693 2011-04-21 07:32:00 <Diablo-D3> I have to byteswap
694 2011-04-21 07:32:11 <ArtForz> dotblank: name current LE PC architectures
695 2011-04-21 07:32:24 <Diablo-D3> because bitcoin is outputting _fucking little endian _hex text__
696 2011-04-21 07:32:52 <dotblank> x86 is old
697 2011-04-21 07:33:09 <dotblank> they have been stuck with it for awhile
698 2011-04-21 07:33:22 <ArtForz> what does that have to do with anything?
699 2011-04-21 07:33:49 <Diablo-D3> arm is little endian as well
700 2011-04-21 07:33:53 <Diablo-D3> as is mips
701 2011-04-21 07:34:05 <ArtForz> isnt arm endian-switchable?
702 2011-04-21 07:34:05 <Diablo-D3> the only common BE arch anymore is powerpc
703 2011-04-21 07:34:09 <ArtForz> mips is for sure
704 2011-04-21 07:34:15 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: switch at fab time
705 2011-04-21 07:34:20 <Diablo-D3> no one fabs BE arms
706 2011-04-21 07:34:38 <Diablo-D3> many mips fabs are runtime switchable
707 2011-04-21 07:34:38 <dotblank> PowerPC is
708 2011-04-21 07:34:41 <Diablo-D3> but they all run in LE
709 2011-04-21 07:35:31 <ArtForz> and what's powerPCs market share? 0.2%?
710 2011-04-21 07:35:38 <dotblank> sucks tho because java is also BE
711 2011-04-21 07:35:49 <ArtForz> well, that's suns fault
712 2011-04-21 07:35:50 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: actually quite large
713 2011-04-21 07:35:53 <dotblank> so stuff sent in java is BE when serialized
714 2011-04-21 07:36:03 <dotblank> isn't the ps3 powerpc?
715 2011-04-21 07:36:08 <Diablo-D3> its popular in automotive design
716 2011-04-21 07:36:12 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: "no", its a cell
717 2011-04-21 07:36:19 <ArtForz> and how many of those are running bitcoin clients?
718 2011-04-21 07:36:19 <dotblank> ah
719 2011-04-21 07:36:20 <Diablo-D3> although its a very cut down cell, its almost useless
720 2011-04-21 07:36:49 <Diablo-D3> actual cells == dual full G5 cores + all 8 SPEs, and they almost always are sold in dual and quad socket boxes
721 2011-04-21 07:37:04 <ArtForz> yeah, and they're also way too fucking expensive
722 2011-04-21 07:37:31 <Diablo-D3> ps3 cells == a very custom "G3" that has instruction reordering removed, most of the cache, no altivec, cache prefetch is gone, etc etc
723 2011-04-21 07:37:39 <Diablo-D3> one of the SPEs is disabled, and another is taken by the OS
724 2011-04-21 07:37:52 <ArtForz> cell was pretty fast and innovative. back in 2003.
725 2011-04-21 07:38:19 <Diablo-D3> the PS3's single PPC core is about as fast as a normal G3 @ 600mhz
726 2011-04-21 07:38:23 <Diablo-D3> its clocked at 3.2ghz
727 2011-04-21 07:38:31 <Diablo-D3> thats how much they fucked you
728 2011-04-21 07:38:41 <Diablo-D3> normal cells are dual full G5's at 3.2ghz
729 2011-04-21 07:38:42 <dotblank> lol thats bad
730 2011-04-21 07:38:57 <ArtForz> yeah, they crippled it pretty badly
731 2011-04-21 07:38:57 <dotblank> but I thought the SPEs were goood for vector calculation
732 2011-04-21 07:39:01 <ArtForz> yes, they are
733 2011-04-21 07:39:08 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: "yes", but realize theres not much of them
734 2011-04-21 07:39:12 <ArtForz> so is SSE/AVX
735 2011-04-21 07:39:19 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: they're really DSPs.
736 2011-04-21 07:39:29 <ArtForz> a cell has 8 SPEs, each 128 bit wide single-issue
737 2011-04-21 07:39:53 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: a 5870 would be, oh, 400 SPEs.
738 2011-04-21 07:40:02 <ArtForz> a modern desktop quadcore has the same number of 128-bit sse units
739 2011-04-21 07:40:15 <dotblank> well I wasn't going to get a ps3 anyways..
740 2011-04-21 07:40:27 FreeMoney has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
741 2011-04-21 07:40:29 <dotblank> oh now I remember its the xbox that runs ppc
742 2011-04-21 07:40:33 <Diablo-D3> xbox 360
743 2011-04-21 07:40:34 <Diablo-D3> not the original
744 2011-04-21 07:40:37 <dotblank> yea
745 2011-04-21 07:40:44 <ArtForz> 360 has some weird tri-ppc core
746 2011-04-21 07:40:45 <Diablo-D3> xbox 360 has a custom PPC chip thats tricore
747 2011-04-21 07:40:57 <Diablo-D3> the third is clocked lower and is used by OS and background tasks
748 2011-04-21 07:41:26 <Diablo-D3> raw processing power in the 360 vs the ps3's cell, spes included, is about the same
749 2011-04-21 07:41:36 <Diablo-D3> the only time SPEs shine is on SPE-oriented tasks
750 2011-04-21 07:41:42 <dotblank> those console are starting to seem a bit dated
751 2011-04-21 07:41:59 <dotblank> consoles*
752 2011-04-21 07:41:59 <Diablo-D3> the 360 has better GPU power... but its hard to tell because all the "hard" GPU work on a PS3 is done in SPEs
753 2011-04-21 07:42:24 <Diablo-D3> the 360 is more simply designed and cheaper
754 2011-04-21 07:42:37 <Diablo-D3> but they're both piles of shit design wise
755 2011-04-21 07:42:44 <Diablo-D3> I would have never done half the shit either company did
756 2011-04-21 07:43:09 <dotblank> I think its fairly funny how the ps3 is getting torn apart by hackers
757 2011-04-21 07:43:38 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: except thats mainly just stupid bs.
758 2011-04-21 07:43:40 <dotblank> especially how the function for the random number gen the eliptical enryption of the private keys were the same
759 2011-04-21 07:43:43 <Diablo-D3> its not being "torn apart"
760 2011-04-21 07:43:56 <topi`> if there would be a modern CELL design with more SPEs and stuff, it could rock
761 2011-04-21 07:43:57 <Diablo-D3> theres no "attack"
762 2011-04-21 07:44:07 <Diablo-D3> topi`: except Cell IS modern
763 2011-04-21 07:44:12 <dotblank> well its sony being stupid
764 2011-04-21 07:44:15 <Diablo-D3> but IBM has no interest in desktop chips
765 2011-04-21 07:44:28 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: the real problem is the hypervisor is not designed for a security role
766 2011-04-21 07:44:53 <topi`> dotblank: did you say you have a big-endian ARM?
767 2011-04-21 07:45:05 <Diablo-D3> if the hypervisor nx'ed all of its writable pages and used hardware worx support and forced it
768 2011-04-21 07:45:10 <Diablo-D3> then none of this would have happened
769 2011-04-21 07:45:14 <topi`> all my ARMs are running little-endian, and debian/unstable
770 2011-04-21 07:45:28 <Diablo-D3> the failure to randomize problem? no one would have EVER known
771 2011-04-21 07:45:44 <Diablo-D3> so sony's failure was exactly what I described
772 2011-04-21 07:45:50 <Diablo-D3> all other security bugs would have never been known.
773 2011-04-21 07:46:07 <ArtForz> pure speculation
774 2011-04-21 07:46:11 <Diablo-D3> ALL security is weak... the only way to be secure is defense in depth.
775 2011-04-21 07:46:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: not at all
776 2011-04-21 07:46:26 <Diablo-D3> they found out about the key because they were buffer overflowing shit
777 2011-04-21 07:46:37 <Diablo-D3> and inserted an executable payload that dumped the whole ram
778 2011-04-21 07:46:54 <ArtForz> and... dumping ram externally is impossible, right?
779 2011-04-21 07:46:56 <dotblank> topi`, not really.. but it might be used on some embedded BE arm devices
780 2011-04-21 07:46:57 <Diablo-D3> this cannot happen on enforced worx.
781 2011-04-21 07:47:14 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: with the way the hardware is designed, basically
782 2011-04-21 07:47:47 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: at least, it would have taken several more years
783 2011-04-21 07:47:57 <Diablo-D3> like I said, all security is weak.
784 2011-04-21 07:48:02 <dotblank> I also heard they didn't use the non executable memory feature
785 2011-04-21 07:48:03 <gjs278> hack my irc account
786 2011-04-21 07:48:06 <gjs278> right now
787 2011-04-21 07:48:11 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: nx and worx, I already said those
788 2011-04-21 07:48:21 <Diablo-D3> nx == no execute
789 2011-04-21 07:48:33 <Diablo-D3> worx = write or execute, cant be both
790 2011-04-21 07:48:51 <dotblank> ah, I knew nx but not worx
791 2011-04-21 07:49:58 <dotblank> would you consider gpg weak?
792 2011-04-21 07:50:22 <dotblank> or pub/priv keys in general
793 2011-04-21 07:50:27 <Diablo-D3> not really.
794 2011-04-21 07:51:16 <dotblank> how does bittorent handle collisions
795 2011-04-21 07:51:38 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt
796 2011-04-21 07:51:51 <dotblank> when you generate a recieving address does it retro actively check to make sure it hasn't been used
797 2011-04-21 07:52:01 <Diablo-D3> I think you meant bitcoin.
798 2011-04-21 07:52:08 <dotblank> oh yea whoops
799 2011-04-21 07:52:35 <ArtForz> 2 random 256 bit ECDSA privkeys colliding, yeah, totally likely
800 2011-04-21 07:52:36 <Diablo-D3> if you end up with two private keys that match the same public key, you are now a VERY rich man
801 2011-04-21 07:52:59 <dotblank> lol
802 2011-04-21 07:53:11 <Diablo-D3> ECDSA does not have any known attacks
803 2011-04-21 07:53:26 <dotblank> well with quantum computing...
804 2011-04-21 07:53:42 <Diablo-D3> quantum computing only lets you guess large numbers of combinations simultaniously
805 2011-04-21 07:53:47 <ArtForz> with quantum computing any current public key system breaks down
806 2011-04-21 07:53:54 <dotblank> right
807 2011-04-21 07:53:55 <Diablo-D3> ie, you brute force derive the private key
808 2011-04-21 07:53:59 <Diablo-D3> thats not an attack
809 2011-04-21 07:54:10 <ArtForz> and last time I checked, no one even managed to keep 8 qbits coherent for long enough to do any useful work with
810 2011-04-21 07:54:12 <Diablo-D3> an attack is where you could actually shortcut pure bruteforce
811 2011-04-21 07:54:13 <dotblank> and if a gov. develops it.. they could basically seize control of any such network
812 2011-04-21 07:54:29 <dotblank> well its a big IF
813 2011-04-21 07:54:35 <Diablo-D3> if the gov attacks it, every single government would immediately launch nukes
814 2011-04-21 07:54:37 <Diablo-D3> and if they doint
815 2011-04-21 07:54:42 <Diablo-D3> every single bank would sue
816 2011-04-21 07:55:01 <ArtForz> and if the sun explodes tomorrow, we're all dead
817 2011-04-21 07:55:02 <dotblank> well it would be secret cia shit.. how would you prove something liek that
818 2011-04-21 07:55:12 <Diablo-D3> dotblank: cia? no
819 2011-04-21 07:55:14 <Diablo-D3> nsa? yes.
820 2011-04-21 07:55:20 <Diablo-D3> and all the research is theoretical anyhow
821 2011-04-21 07:55:29 <Diablo-D3> quantum computing is another 50 years off
822 2011-04-21 07:55:42 <Diablo-D3> its easier, and cheaper, to just go kill people in person to make things stop.
823 2011-04-21 07:56:02 <ArtForz> well, ibm did manage to factor 15 :P
824 2011-04-21 07:56:21 wolfspraul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
825 2011-04-21 08:06:42 <sipa> ArtForz: to get the other guys's savings, you only need a collision of the 160-bit hash, actually :)
826 2011-04-21 08:06:49 <ArtForz> no
827 2011-04-21 08:06:54 <sipa> except if it's an unspent generation
828 2011-04-21 08:07:03 <ArtForz> how do you generate the required signature?
829 2011-04-21 08:07:08 <sipa> which uses public keys in the txout
830 2011-04-21 08:07:10 <gjs278> by hand
831 2011-04-21 08:07:14 <ArtForz> if you have the wrong privkey?
832 2011-04-21 08:07:20 <sipa> the signature also contains the public key
833 2011-04-21 08:07:29 <sipa> the txout only says which hash the public key should match
834 2011-04-21 08:07:37 <sipa> (iirc)
835 2011-04-21 08:07:49 <ArtForz> oh, right
836 2011-04-21 08:07:59 <ArtForz> yeah, in that case you 'only' need to collide ripemd160
837 2011-04-21 08:08:07 <gjs278> how long will that take
838 2011-04-21 08:08:35 <sipa> ArtForz: hey, that's still 2^48 times easier
839 2011-04-21 08:08:54 <ArtForz> naive... 2**80 time, 2**80 space, with a large constant as you have to do a ec mult for each try
840 2011-04-21 08:09:25 <sipa> actually, you don't just want collisions, those are useless
841 2011-04-21 08:09:29 <ArtForz> oh, right
842 2011-04-21 08:09:46 <sipa> you want collision with a specific key (or set of millions of keys, maybe, but not any)
843 2011-04-21 08:10:01 <ArtForz> then... about 2**159
844 2011-04-21 08:10:04 <gjs278> if we took all of the power being using on bitcoin mining right now and used it to collidge someone's ripemd160 account, how long it would it take
845 2011-04-21 08:10:21 <gjs278> how long would*
846 2011-04-21 08:10:22 <dotblank> Oh another question.. is openssl/bitcoin limited by international trade regulations regarding the transport of encrypted materials/algorithms?
847 2011-04-21 08:10:49 <gjs278> nobody abides by those rules
848 2011-04-21 08:10:52 <sipa> making the completely wrong assumption that a bitcoin hash takes as long as a privkey->pubkey->hash conversion, and we have 1 million useful keys
849 2011-04-21 08:11:01 <edcba> it's not encrpytion it's authentication anyway
850 2011-04-21 08:11:14 <sipa> there is absolutely no encryption in bitcoin
851 2011-04-21 08:11:30 <dotblank> well the public/private key pairing
852 2011-04-21 08:11:34 <ArtForz> sipa: I think we can assume the number of keys that hash to the same hash is pretty evenly distributed
853 2011-04-21 08:11:38 <gjs278> I just want to know if you could like convince a pool to just try and steal mystery miner's wallet or something
854 2011-04-21 08:11:46 <edcba> lol
855 2011-04-21 08:11:47 <gjs278> by putting the power into that md160 crap
856 2011-04-21 08:11:48 <edcba> no
857 2011-04-21 08:12:01 <ArtForz> so it's really just "try random values until you find one that hashes to X"
858 2011-04-21 08:12:09 <sipa> yup
859 2011-04-21 08:12:15 <ArtForz> which for a 160 bit hash is... 2**159 tries average
860 2011-04-21 08:12:19 <sipa> and that'd take about 10^22 years, given above scenario
861 2011-04-21 08:12:23 <dotblank> it should get progressively easier to collide as time progresses
862 2011-04-21 08:12:29 <sipa> (if there are a million valid keys)
863 2011-04-21 08:12:40 <dotblank> ah yea
864 2011-04-21 08:12:43 <gjs278> 10^22 years even with 500 ghash going?
865 2011-04-21 08:12:50 <sipa> 700 Ghash/s
866 2011-04-21 08:12:52 <ArtForz> that sounds low
867 2011-04-21 08:12:53 <gjs278> *convert 500 ghash into whatever*
868 2011-04-21 08:12:54 <edcba> calc
869 2011-04-21 08:13:08 <sipa> but privkey->pubkey convertion is a lot slower than a sha256 hash, i believe
870 2011-04-21 08:13:12 <edcba> 2**159 is about 10**50
871 2011-04-21 08:13:15 <gjs278> yeah
872 2011-04-21 08:13:31 <gjs278> oh well, I guess he keeps his wallet
873 2011-04-21 08:13:33 <dotblank> I don't think so much about the actually brute forcing
874 2011-04-21 08:13:42 <edcba> divided by 10**12 h/s
875 2011-04-21 08:13:46 <dotblank> perhaps a better approach is by messing with the RNG
876 2011-04-21 08:13:49 <edcba> 10**38 s
877 2011-04-21 08:13:50 <lfm_> ;;calc 2^159
878 2011-04-21 08:13:51 <gribble> 2^159 = 7.30750819 * 10^(47)
879 2011-04-21 08:13:58 <gjs278> but... towards the end when all of these coins are already generated
880 2011-04-21 08:14:03 fimp has quit (Quit: Leaving)
881 2011-04-21 08:14:06 <gjs278> would it make sense to just try and steal people's wallets
882 2011-04-21 08:14:08 <gjs278> instead of mining
883 2011-04-21 08:14:12 <gjs278> or is that impossible
884 2011-04-21 08:14:12 <edcba> no
885 2011-04-21 08:14:16 <edcba> impossible
886 2011-04-21 08:14:19 <gjs278> alright
887 2011-04-21 08:14:25 <dotblank> the difficulty of that would be far too great
888 2011-04-21 08:15:09 <dotblank> I think messing with the random number generator would be easier then cracking that hash
889 2011-04-21 08:15:17 <lfm_> ;;calc 2^159/1e12
890 2011-04-21 08:15:18 <gribble> (2^159) / 1e12 = 7.30750819 * 10^(35)
891 2011-04-21 08:15:19 <dotblank> well brute forcing it
892 2011-04-21 08:15:38 <ArtForz> iirc we use openssls rng
893 2011-04-21 08:15:58 <ArtForz> break that and you pwned the internet.
894 2011-04-21 08:16:20 <dotblank> I egt lots of openssl updates...
895 2011-04-21 08:16:23 <dotblank> get*
896 2011-04-21 08:17:12 <ArtForz> and that has any relevance to anything how?
897 2011-04-21 08:17:44 <dotblank> they are mostly security updates.. so it seems openssl isnt perfect
898 2011-04-21 08:17:56 <sipa> unless it's something like that debian bug some time ago
899 2011-04-21 08:17:58 <edcba> ok let's see...
900 2011-04-21 08:18:00 <gjs278> every security update by openssl is probably just for theoretical shit
901 2011-04-21 08:18:03 <ArtForz> yep, that would be... bad
902 2011-04-21 08:18:21 <edcba> http://www.openssl.org/news/
903 2011-04-21 08:18:23 <ersi> gjs278: unless some dipshit commented out the PRNG
904 2011-04-21 08:18:27 <ersi> ;D
905 2011-04-21 08:18:36 <ArtForz> lol, yeah
906 2011-04-21 08:19:14 <edcba> mostly buffer overruns/crashs
907 2011-04-21 08:19:27 <ArtForz> http://xkcd.com/221/
908 2011-04-21 08:19:41 <sipa> approximately that, indeed
909 2011-04-21 08:19:55 <sipa> it still had the full 65536 possible outputs per key size
910 2011-04-21 08:20:05 <edcba> maybe we should save the seed on rom
911 2011-04-21 08:20:22 <sipa> it's sure make the NSA's job easier
912 2011-04-21 08:20:31 <ArtForz> just store the key in WOM
913 2011-04-21 08:20:41 <gjs278> store the key on a sticky note
914 2011-04-21 08:20:50 <RenaKunisaki> store it under the welcome mat
915 2011-04-21 08:20:55 <sipa> i suggest using 42 as seed
916 2011-04-21 08:21:22 <gjs278> 42X8
917 2011-04-21 08:22:00 <sipa> Trying to come up with a significant number to search for, I thought of 42 (the answer to life, the universe, and everything in Hitchhikers's Guide to the Galaxy.) 42 would be way too common of course, so I went for 424242. Came back that this shows up at position 242423. Add one (for the decimal point, I lamely rationalize here) and you get 242424, the reverse of the original input. Now that's meaningful... or something.
918 2011-04-21 08:22:10 <sipa> Amusingly enough, the entire string returned is 242424242. If you disregard either of the ending twos, you find that it's the same position at which you find 42424242.
919 2011-04-21 08:22:15 <sipa> http://www.angio.net/pi/piquery
920 2011-04-21 08:22:35 <gjs278> don't look into pi too hard
921 2011-04-21 08:22:41 <gjs278> you might end up putting a drill into your head
922 2011-04-21 08:23:15 <edcba> :)
923 2011-04-21 08:23:30 epicurus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
924 2011-04-21 08:23:51 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
925 2011-04-21 08:24:25 <lfm_> so something wrong with /dev/urandom ?
926 2011-04-21 08:24:35 <sipa> no
927 2011-04-21 08:24:45 <RenaKunisaki> http://www.xkcd.com/10/
928 2011-04-21 08:26:28 Lis has joined
929 2011-04-21 08:26:34 <gjs278> /dev/random is better, just move your mouse a bit more
930 2011-04-21 08:26:47 <gjs278> you have to have dedication to be truly random
931 2011-04-21 08:26:54 <lfm_> if you got all the time in the world
932 2011-04-21 08:27:42 <gjs278> grep -i help_me_obi-wan_kenobi /dev/urandom
933 2011-04-21 08:27:45 <gjs278> how long will that take
934 2011-04-21 08:28:14 <gjs278> I put -i so that should speed it up a bit
935 2011-04-21 08:28:35 <lfm_> ;;calc 256^26
936 2011-04-21 08:28:36 <gribble> 256^26 = 4.11376139 * 10^(62)
937 2011-04-21 08:28:49 <sipa> one in 365375409332725729550921208179070754913983135744
938 2011-04-21 08:28:57 <devrandom_> :)
939 2011-04-21 08:29:07 <sipa> 22 characters, 18 case insensitive
940 2011-04-21 08:29:13 <sipa> ;;calc 256^22/2^18
941 2011-04-21 08:29:14 <gribble> (256^22) / (2^18) = 3.65375409 * 10^(47)
942 2011-04-21 08:29:35 <gjs278> never tell me the odds
943 2011-04-21 08:29:51 <sipa> to know the speed, you need the generation rate
944 2011-04-21 08:30:12 <lfm_> ya highly machine dependant
945 2011-04-21 08:30:48 dbitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
946 2011-04-21 08:30:50 <gjs278> I'll start it now, let you guys know if it ever hits
947 2011-04-21 08:31:41 mmoya has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
948 2011-04-21 08:33:39 <Lis> explain please, if I see http://blockexplorer.com/q/hextarget 000000000000B5AC000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 if I get ./bitcoind getwork "target" : "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000acb5000000000000" Why the difference?
949 2011-04-21 08:34:03 <mrb_> endianness
950 2011-04-21 08:34:06 <gjs278> you left your caps lock key on
951 2011-04-21 08:34:16 <ArtForz> blockexplorer is normal hex notation, bitcoin getwork is LE
952 2011-04-21 08:34:19 <lfm_> its called endianness
953 2011-04-21 08:34:47 <Lis> LE?
954 2011-04-21 08:34:52 <joepie91> how do I calculate the estimated time for a block again?
955 2011-04-21 08:34:57 <joepie91> with 81.98 mh
956 2011-04-21 08:34:57 <joepie91> :P
957 2011-04-21 08:35:06 <mtrlt> little-endian
958 2011-04-21 08:35:10 * joepie91 keeps forgetting the commands
959 2011-04-21 08:35:43 <ArtForz> ;;bc,calc 81980
960 2011-04-21 08:35:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 81980 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 7 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes, and 29 seconds
961 2011-04-21 08:35:44 <lfm_> multiply or dividr or something by 2^32 and or 600
962 2011-04-21 08:35:55 <joepie91> ah, thanks
963 2011-04-21 08:36:00 dbitcoin has joined
964 2011-04-21 08:36:23 <Lis> mtrlt, how to calculate LE of target?
965 2011-04-21 08:36:28 <gjs278> flip it
966 2011-04-21 08:36:33 <ArtForz> byteswap it
967 2011-04-21 08:36:37 <mtrlt> just read the bytes from the end instead of the start
968 2011-04-21 08:36:42 <mtrlt> or vice versa
969 2011-04-21 08:36:43 <RenaKunisaki> bop it
970 2011-04-21 08:36:47 <gjs278> twist it
971 2011-04-21 08:36:49 <gjs278> pull it
972 2011-04-21 08:36:50 <gjs278> bop it
973 2011-04-21 08:36:53 <gjs278> bop it
974 2011-04-21 08:36:54 <gjs278> bop it
975 2011-04-21 08:36:56 <gjs278> twist it
976 2011-04-21 08:36:59 <gjs278> OWACHGWW
977 2011-04-21 08:37:02 <lfm_> suck it , blow it
978 2011-04-21 08:37:43 <Lis> mtrlt, o! thanks)
979 2011-04-21 08:38:57 <ArtForz> meh, missed a perfect opportunity for a technologic ref
980 2011-04-21 08:45:25 <Diablo-D3> I thought thats what they were trying to fail at.
981 2011-04-21 08:49:17 rli has joined
982 2011-04-21 08:56:28 TD[gone] is now known as TD
983 2011-04-21 09:00:29 <Lis> mtrlt, when make a binary bin(0x00acb500) zero_1010110010110101_zero bin(0x00b5ac00) zero_10110101101011_zero if turn, results have not been
984 2011-04-21 09:00:51 <mtrlt> i don't understand
985 2011-04-21 09:02:54 <ArtForz> engrish gibberish?
986 2011-04-21 09:02:56 <Lis> mtrlt, if i wont make LE i must read the end before target
987 2011-04-21 09:03:49 <Lis> sorry my english is not very good
988 2011-04-21 09:05:44 <Lis> if i have target 0xf0 b11110000 -> make LE b00001111 0x0f
989 2011-04-21 09:06:11 <Lis> is this correct?
990 2011-04-21 09:06:13 <mtrlt> no
991 2011-04-21 09:06:18 <Lis> 0_о
992 2011-04-21 09:06:22 <mtrlt> 0xf0 -> 0xf0
993 2011-04-21 09:06:29 <mtrlt> 0xaabb -> 0xbbaa
994 2011-04-21 09:06:34 <Lis> ок ок
995 2011-04-21 09:06:34 <mtrlt> like. abcd -> cdab
996 2011-04-21 09:06:50 <Diablo-D3> endianness changes ordering of pairs of bytes
997 2011-04-21 09:07:00 TD_ has joined
998 2011-04-21 09:07:07 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt flip bits.
999 2011-04-21 09:07:13 <mtrlt> umm no, in this case the order of all bytes must be changed
1000 2011-04-21 09:07:14 <mtrlt> not just paris
1001 2011-04-21 09:07:15 <mtrlt> pairs
1002 2011-04-21 09:07:29 <Diablo-D3> mtrlt: a long is a pair of 8 bytes.
1003 2011-04-21 09:08:10 <mtrlt> w7e
1004 2011-04-21 09:08:11 <Lis> Thanks, I understood
1005 2011-04-21 09:08:11 <mtrlt> w/e
1006 2011-04-21 09:08:15 <mtrlt> np
1007 2011-04-21 09:08:21 BlueMatt has joined
1008 2011-04-21 09:08:21 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
1009 2011-04-21 09:08:21 BlueMatt has joined
1010 2011-04-21 09:11:25 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1011 2011-04-21 09:14:15 rli1 has joined
1012 2011-04-21 09:14:16 rli has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1013 2011-04-21 09:15:41 * BurtyB thought a long was 4 bytes..
1014 2011-04-21 09:16:10 <mrb_> it depends
1015 2011-04-21 09:16:35 <sipa> a long is at least 4 bytes, i believe
1016 2011-04-21 09:16:43 <BurtyB> well yes, but in my world they mostly are :)
1017 2011-04-21 09:16:50 toffoo has quit ()
1018 2011-04-21 09:21:12 <mrb_> C89 says a long must be >= 4 bytes. On 32-bit platforms it is always 4 bytes. On 64-bit platforms, it is either 4 (Linux) or 8 bytes (Windows).
1019 2011-04-21 09:21:36 <mrb_> erm. Linux=8 Windows=4
1020 2011-04-21 09:22:53 <CIA-89> bitcoinj: hearn@google.com * r56 /trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/BlockChain.java: Split the BlockChain.add method out into some smaller functions.
1021 2011-04-21 09:26:26 <gjs278> Diablo-D3 your miner has officially matched poclbm now that I'm using stream 2.1
1022 2011-04-21 09:27:18 <Diablo-D3> gjs278: yup, thought so
1023 2011-04-21 09:29:02 tenach has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1024 2011-04-21 09:33:14 <gjs278> Diablo-D3 is it possible to change the frames on the fly in your miner once it starts hashing
1025 2011-04-21 09:33:32 <gjs278> I tried it with poclbm and I could not get it to accept a new frame value mid mining
1026 2011-04-21 09:33:48 <gjs278> without code completely stopping it and starting it again
1027 2011-04-21 09:34:09 dbitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1028 2011-04-21 09:34:36 <gjs278> my goal is to have it setup so -f60 is my default, but if DPMS kicks in and shuts off my monitor, it puts me to -f1
1029 2011-04-21 09:38:18 <Diablo-D3> not really worth it.
1030 2011-04-21 09:38:23 <Diablo-D3> you're not gaining much by doing that.
1031 2011-04-21 09:38:34 devon_hillard has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1032 2011-04-21 09:39:29 <gjs278> I need my megahashes at any cost
1033 2011-04-21 09:41:15 <Diablo-D3> yeah, and the difference is probably very small
1034 2011-04-21 09:42:40 <gjs278> I get anywhere from 4 - 6
1035 2011-04-21 09:42:51 <Diablo-D3> have you been timing it right?
1036 2011-04-21 09:43:01 <Diablo-D3> you need to let it run for at least 5 minutes and read the second number
1037 2011-04-21 09:43:33 <gjs278> my life is too fast paced to read anything except the first number after a minute
1038 2011-04-21 09:44:01 <Diablo-D3> the first number only tells you the current speed
1039 2011-04-21 09:44:05 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt tell you the historic speed
1040 2011-04-21 09:44:49 <gjs278> its good enough to compare though for a little bit
1041 2011-04-21 09:45:19 <gjs278> I'll do the real test soon
1042 2011-04-21 09:45:22 <Diablo-D3> not really.
1043 2011-04-21 09:45:27 <Diablo-D3> the second number is benchmarking for a reason
1044 2011-04-21 09:47:50 dbitcoin has joined
1045 2011-04-21 09:50:41 justmoon has joined
1046 2011-04-21 10:07:07 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: could you more clearly explain the low-level vs high-level poll. I think some people don't get it
1047 2011-04-21 10:07:26 <BlueMatt> also, luke-jr, could you add the ability to change one's vote I think that gives a much more accurate poll
1048 2011-04-21 10:34:45 <BlueMatt> why are the mac build files not in the git repo, why does one have to download them separately?
1049 2011-04-21 10:34:47 <mizerydearia> Does anyone live in or nearby San Francisco and is up for idea of a Bitcoin micro-convention for a day; April 30th, 2011?
1050 2011-04-21 10:36:12 <mizerydearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6237
1051 2011-04-21 10:41:03 has joined
1052 2011-04-21 10:41:04 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1053 2011-04-21 10:47:11 <topi`> WHAT, gavin gave an interview to Forbes ??
1054 2011-04-21 10:47:42 danlucraft has joined
1055 2011-04-21 10:48:02 <BlueMatt> topi`: yea
1056 2011-04-21 10:48:05 <BlueMatt> :)
1057 2011-04-21 10:48:33 <BlueMatt> he casually said yesterday "oh the article is up on forbes"
1058 2011-04-21 10:48:40 <topi`> I missed that
1059 2011-04-21 10:48:48 <topi`> I'm so rarely on IRC nowadays :/
1060 2011-04-21 10:49:06 <BlueMatt> btc is growing too quick to keep up with it all anymore
1061 2011-04-21 10:49:38 <topi`> we need more white papers and analysis and so on
1062 2011-04-21 10:49:52 <topi`> so that we can prove bitcoin is *not* a bubble but has a *real* value in many niches
1063 2011-04-21 10:50:03 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: lol yeah
1064 2011-04-21 10:50:17 <Blitzboom> wtf happened. weâre on two major magazines now
1065 2011-04-21 10:50:22 <Blitzboom> no, three
1066 2011-04-21 10:50:36 <BlueMatt> *on two large news websites
1067 2011-04-21 10:50:39 <BlueMatt> not in the magazines
1068 2011-04-21 10:50:42 <BlueMatt> and whats the 3rd?
1069 2011-04-21 10:50:47 <Blitzboom> magazinesâ websites
1070 2011-04-21 10:50:53 Lis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1071 2011-04-21 10:50:56 <Blitzboom> that was the atlantic
1072 2011-04-21 10:50:58 <jaromil> just found out http://tcatm.github.com/bitcoin-js-remote/
1073 2011-04-21 10:51:05 <jaromil> simply gorgeous, cheers tcatm
1074 2011-04-21 10:51:12 <Blitzboom> although it wasnât only about bitcoin: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/04/how-to-start-your-own-private-currency/73327/
1075 2011-04-21 10:51:17 <BlueMatt> jaromil: yea that is all I use, really well put together
1076 2011-04-21 10:51:26 <jaromil> big up
1077 2011-04-21 10:51:26 <BlueMatt> oh yea, I saw that one
1078 2011-04-21 10:51:40 <Blitzboom> things are really happening fast
1079 2011-04-21 10:51:45 <Blitzboom> economists debating bitcoin etc.
1080 2011-04-21 10:51:47 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: yep :)
1081 2011-04-21 10:51:56 <jaromil> anyone here can run a compiler on OSX to test a bitcoind build?
1082 2011-04-21 10:52:16 <jaromil> i mean an apple with Xcode and macports
1083 2011-04-21 10:52:27 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: though I highly prefer merchants before economists start deciding btc sucks, but either way media is good
1084 2011-04-21 10:52:56 <Blitzboom> agree, we still donât have any good shop accepting it â¦
1085 2011-04-21 10:53:12 <BlueMatt> jaromil: my osx vm (vmware with a mod to enable it) doesnt appear to be working anymore and my macbook is old and SLOW (plus its disk is corrupted somehow and it takes like an hour to boot)
1086 2011-04-21 10:53:23 <Blitzboom> good = one that would drive the demand for bitcoins up
1087 2011-04-21 10:53:28 <Blitzboom> and maintain it
1088 2011-04-21 10:54:31 <jaromil> BlueMatt: ok thanks anyway i've just convinced my gf to leave me her apple for today
1089 2011-04-21 10:55:02 <jaromil> if all goes well i'll be fixing the autotools for osx and win
1090 2011-04-21 10:55:10 <jaromil> i wanna get ready with this pull request
1091 2011-04-21 10:55:43 <jaromil> and then package bitcoin with this js gui by tcatm
1092 2011-04-21 10:55:52 <BlueMatt> jaromil: if you have time, can you do some research as to how to register bitcoin to handle bitcoin: uris?
1093 2011-04-21 10:56:18 <BlueMatt> jaromil: Ive got it working on win and it should work on osx but I dont know how to register the app with the os
1094 2011-04-21 10:56:26 <BlueMatt> and it looks complicated based on my googling
1095 2011-04-21 10:57:07 <genjix> BlueMatt: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/169
1096 2011-04-21 10:57:09 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i have no real experience of osx
1097 2011-04-21 10:57:10 <genjix> use that patch
1098 2011-04-21 10:57:28 <jaromil> trying to get an expert friend into it after pesach
1099 2011-04-21 10:57:34 <BlueMatt> genjix: which patch?
1100 2011-04-21 10:57:40 <jaromil> genjix: hey! goodmornin, so we meet today?
1101 2011-04-21 10:58:05 <genjix> jaromil: erm not sure. ill let you know later
1102 2011-04-21 10:58:19 <sipa> in the send-to-url patch, maybe you should require a ecdsa signature with the specified key in the text file as well
1103 2011-04-21 10:58:19 <jaromil> genjix: ok np i'm also swamped in code :D
1104 2011-04-21 10:58:32 <sipa> actually, never mind
1105 2011-04-21 10:58:44 <sipa> nobody has a use for claiming he owns an address he doesn't
1106 2011-04-21 10:58:45 <BlueMatt> genjix: what does that have to do with registering the bitcoin: uri with the os?
1107 2011-04-21 10:58:51 <genjix> sipa: yeah i have an rsa signature for setting the address
1108 2011-04-21 10:59:02 <genjix> ahh yours is a different patch. ok
1109 2011-04-21 10:59:31 <sipa> or wait, what if someone is able to MitM the connection between your bitcoin client and the server you're trying to reach
1110 2011-04-21 10:59:48 <BlueMatt> genjix: we need to have a discussion on the forums about the best way to implement user-friendly naming. There are several patches and a conclusion as to which idea is bets needs to be made
1111 2011-04-21 10:59:50 <sipa> no, never ming :)
1112 2011-04-21 10:59:56 <genjix> sipa: so what
1113 2011-04-21 11:00:02 <sipa> genjix: yes, it's pointless
1114 2011-04-21 11:00:04 <genjix> you have it signed
1115 2011-04-21 11:00:04 <sipa> so nvm
1116 2011-04-21 11:00:44 <genjix> BlueMatt: so i made several forum posts 1-2 months ago and everybody ignored it
1117 2011-04-21 11:01:01 <genjix> so i go and code soemthing over that time and make sure it's secure
1118 2011-04-21 11:01:22 <BlueMatt> genjix: I mean like a poll to debate dns/http/custom protcol etc
1119 2011-04-21 11:01:38 <BlueMatt> from there we can debate which implementation is best
1120 2011-04-21 11:01:44 <genjix> why not try out my branch first
1121 2011-04-21 11:02:11 <BlueMatt> there is also http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6186.0
1122 2011-04-21 11:02:12 <genjix> because i made several posts but nobody ever responded
1123 2011-04-21 11:02:27 <BlueMatt> genjix: Im just saying there are several and they need to be debated
1124 2011-04-21 11:02:47 <genjix> yeah mine is better :p
1125 2011-04-21 11:03:29 <BlueMatt> needs discussed (Im hoping 0.3.22 will have one of these things merged, or should that big a feature constitute 0.3.30?)
1126 2011-04-21 11:05:06 <genjix> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4353.0
1127 2011-04-21 11:05:08 <genjix> go discuss
1128 2011-04-21 11:05:31 <genjix> new thread: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5938.0
1129 2011-04-21 11:07:47 taco_the_paco has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1130 2011-04-21 11:09:18 <topi`> morning genjix
1131 2011-04-21 11:09:53 <BlueMatt> yay got my osx vm to boot (on linux :)
1132 2011-04-21 11:10:15 <BlueMatt> yay for creepy binary vmware mod on some odd forum
1133 2011-04-21 11:10:59 <topi`> the Forbes article actually has a positive tone
1134 2011-04-21 11:11:06 <jaromil> also the times one
1135 2011-04-21 11:11:15 <BlueMatt> I like the forbes article after the first couple paragraphs
1136 2011-04-21 11:11:18 <jaromil> i'm making a new roundup on the media coverage on DYNDY today
1137 2011-04-21 11:11:21 <jaromil> and will mention them
1138 2011-04-21 11:11:22 darrob has joined
1139 2011-04-21 11:11:32 <BlueMatt> the first couple ones are a bit strongly anti-establishment
1140 2011-04-21 11:12:11 <jaromil> and i can't wait to dialectically destroy the tyler sucker guy
1141 2011-04-21 11:12:12 <sipa> genjix: to be honest, when i read your proposals, my impression was "what a complex thing just to look up a name", but i think i didn't see the separation between the lookup system on one hand, and a server implementation on the other hand
1142 2011-04-21 11:12:29 <topi`> jaromil: I think he is already pretty much destroyed :) see the comments
1143 2011-04-21 11:12:40 <genjix> sipa: server implemetation is in contrib/ns and is written in php
1144 2011-04-21 11:12:43 <BlueMatt> if anyone wants to run osx in a vm on linux (and dont mind pirating osx) check out http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=220750
1145 2011-04-21 11:12:43 <jaromil> well i think gavin made an error to publish a picture of himself burning money
1146 2011-04-21 11:12:49 <sipa> genjix: yes yes, i understand it now
1147 2011-04-21 11:12:50 <jaromil> but then its just an opinion
1148 2011-04-21 11:12:56 <genjix> kk
1149 2011-04-21 11:13:01 <BlueMatt> jaromil: I doubt it was gavin's idea
1150 2011-04-21 11:13:05 <jaromil> however if you are looking for media aware campaigners giving suggestions: i'm one
1151 2011-04-21 11:13:12 <sipa> genjix: but just the way you "sell" the idea, starting to talk about requesting a public key, signing things, ...
1152 2011-04-21 11:13:18 <jaromil> media is a strange beast and you need to know how to tame it
1153 2011-04-21 11:13:18 <BlueMatt> I would highly bet the photographer they sent out said, lets get a cool pic
1154 2011-04-21 11:13:35 <sipa> genjix: those are things obviously needed for proving to a directory server that you own the address
1155 2011-04-21 11:13:36 <jaromil> however nothing rly bad: so far so good IMHO
1156 2011-04-21 11:13:46 <genjix> sipa: i made a full explanation http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5938.msg91331#msg91331
1157 2011-04-21 11:13:48 <jaromil> we need more well informed articles to explain what bitcoin really is
1158 2011-04-21 11:14:09 <genjix> sipa: yep i tend to assume people know what I'm talking about too often :p
1159 2011-04-21 11:14:32 <BlueMatt> jaromil: no one in the real world really cares, I think gavin does a good job explaining what people need to know, though there are some good podcasts explaining the technical aspects
1160 2011-04-21 11:14:34 <genjix> where is this forbes article? is it about bitcoin?
1161 2011-04-21 11:14:49 <BlueMatt> genjix: yea its entirely about bitcoin
1162 2011-04-21 11:14:59 <BlueMatt> http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0509/technology-psilocybin-bitcoins-gavin-andresen-crypto-currency.html
1163 2011-04-21 11:15:00 <genjix> when/where?
1164 2011-04-21 11:15:03 <genjix> thanks
1165 2011-04-21 11:15:04 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i think gavin is doing great!
1166 2011-04-21 11:15:22 <BlueMatt> jaromil: that is my point
1167 2011-04-21 11:15:33 <genjix> crazy
1168 2011-04-21 11:15:37 <jaromil> my remark was just about the picture and is not even a desaster
1169 2011-04-21 11:16:01 <jaromil> genjix: ahahahah you have no idea what you are getting into :) plz keep the nail polish up
1170 2011-04-21 11:16:06 <sipa> genjix: split it up 1) i propose this system for looking up addresses, and have an implementation that works 2) here is an implementation for a secure server infrastructure as well, and here's how to use it (and only there mention that you use public keys extracted from bitcoind to authenticate)
1171 2011-04-21 11:16:07 <BlueMatt> jaromil: I agree the pic isnt idea but it does make people want to read the article which is good so...
1172 2011-04-21 11:16:22 <BlueMatt> ideal*
1173 2011-04-21 11:16:25 <jaromil> BlueMatt: yes
1174 2011-04-21 11:17:05 <manveru> and there i thought burning fiat money was illegal
1175 2011-04-21 11:17:09 <BlueMatt> NOOOO reddit is down
1176 2011-04-21 11:17:28 <jaromil> manveru: it is illegal and that's why the dollars are covered with some funny money bill
1177 2011-04-21 11:17:36 <genjix> sipa: thanks, that's what jgarzik said: So it was decided to split the pull request into several smaller ones. Here's the new one: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/169
1178 2011-04-21 11:17:48 <Blitzboom> i think gavin ftw
1179 2011-04-21 11:17:52 <Blitzboom> weâre damn lucky to have him
1180 2011-04-21 11:18:00 <sipa> definitely
1181 2011-04-21 11:19:02 <sipa> genjix: i mean even further, it should be clear that you're able to have a name-lookup service without any ability to log in on a server, fiddle with public keys, know that it uses rsa signatures, ...
1182 2011-04-21 11:19:17 <genjix> is that not clear from my forum post?
1183 2011-04-21 11:19:28 <sipa> after careful reading, sure
1184 2011-04-21 11:19:32 <genjix> ok cool
1185 2011-04-21 11:19:56 <sipa> but i didn't read it carefully after my first impression "why do i need all that hackery for an address lookup?"
1186 2011-04-21 11:20:16 <jaromil> genjix: nice, readable
1187 2011-04-21 11:20:25 <jaromil> genjix: so you want to add curl to deps
1188 2011-04-21 11:20:37 <jaromil> fine for me. curl is everywhere and is useful for many things
1189 2011-04-21 11:20:39 <genjix> yep
1190 2011-04-21 11:21:36 <Blitzboom> i think the picture on forbesâ is awesome btw
1191 2011-04-21 11:21:52 <Blitzboom> was surprised by it :D
1192 2011-04-21 11:22:07 <jaromil> genjix: the namespace is confusing
1193 2011-04-21 11:22:38 <jaromil> NameResolution to a unix aware coder sounds you are actually doing a dns query
1194 2011-04-21 11:23:10 <jaromil> instead, what you call nameresolution is a response via tcp from a server with its own protocol and a database...
1195 2011-04-21 11:23:16 <jaromil> i find it confusing. just a comment.
1196 2011-04-21 11:23:54 <genjix> ?
1197 2011-04-21 11:24:02 <jaromil> maybe naming it SearchAddress or something, since the term "address" is already used in bitcoind
1198 2011-04-21 11:24:04 <genjix> it's doing a name resolution
1199 2011-04-21 11:24:20 <genjix> resolving it to your bitcoin address
1200 2011-04-21 11:24:55 MacRohard has joined
1201 2011-04-21 11:25:40 <jaromil> well, man resolver(3)
1202 2011-04-21 11:25:45 <jaromil> that is a resolution, for coders
1203 2011-04-21 11:26:01 <jaromil> its just a comment on the namespace, yet choosing names is important
1204 2011-04-21 11:26:17 <jaromil> here you are querying a database for an entry via http
1205 2011-04-21 11:26:43 <jaromil> i'm not saying is a bad approach
1206 2011-04-21 11:31:44 <genjix> i'm not sure what you mean tbh :p
1207 2011-04-21 11:32:20 jroot has joined
1208 2011-04-21 11:33:09 <jaromil> nvm. pedantic unix stuff. i've commented on the post.
1209 2011-04-21 11:34:16 FabianB_ has joined
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1213 2011-04-21 11:38:56 <topi`> genjix: remember to respect the unix gurus of the past millennium.
1214 2011-04-21 11:39:13 <topi`> naming functions/structures is awfully important :)
1215 2011-04-21 11:41:49 <RenaKunisaki> otherwise you end up with silly things like creat and umount
1216 2011-04-21 11:43:17 <sipa> and things like locate, talk, date, cd, strip, look, touch, finger, unzip, fsck, more, yes, ...
1217 2011-04-21 11:43:19 <genjix> topi`: do you have any code online?
1218 2011-04-21 11:47:10 <RenaKunisaki> don't forget wine and mount in there
1219 2011-04-21 11:47:20 <LtBrenton> yeah, should be
1220 2011-04-21 11:47:34 <LtBrenton> locate, talk, date, cd, strip, look, touch, finger, unzip, mount, fsck, more, yes...
1221 2011-04-21 11:47:53 <jaromil> lol
1222 2011-04-21 11:47:53 <genjix> phantomcircuit: see PM
1223 2011-04-21 11:49:06 <genjix> tcatm: hey
1224 2011-04-21 11:49:34 <topi`> genjix: nope, haven't been coding for a while, just reading/writing articles. politics, you see.
1225 2011-04-21 11:49:43 <genjix> kk
1226 2011-04-21 11:49:53 <topi`> sipa: you forgot 'mount' ;)
1227 2011-04-21 11:50:41 <sacarlson> so what method could be used to secure a small bitcoin proto network from being overpowered?
1228 2011-04-21 11:51:15 <topi`> sacarlson: pretty much nothing. that's why you need geeks with powerful 3D cards in the bootstrapping of the network :)
1229 2011-04-21 11:51:27 <topi`> geeks AND ideologists :)
1230 2011-04-21 11:52:16 <sacarlson> topi`: what about limiting the number of minners on the network not sure that would work
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1234 2011-04-21 11:54:51 <sacarlson> topi`: I have another idea maybe the max number of coins in a day or hour and then switch the network to only pay the minners with transaction fee's
1235 2011-04-21 11:55:05 <topi`> you can of course decide that only these nodes in the network are trusted, but then it's not decentralized, is it?
1236 2011-04-21 11:55:39 <sacarlson> topi`: no it's not true and that would be the goal
1237 2011-04-21 11:55:54 <noagendamarket> sacarlson just dont publish the connection endpoint...
1238 2011-04-21 11:56:01 <genjix> does anyone know how i can contact gavin?
1239 2011-04-21 11:56:21 <noagendamarket> ask forbes magazine ?
1240 2011-04-21 11:57:33 <topi`> genjix: /msg gavinandresen foo
1241 2011-04-21 11:58:04 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: you mean don't let them know when they stop making money with mining or they will stop running and kill your network ?
1242 2011-04-21 11:58:39 <genjix> topi`: he's not online
1243 2011-04-21 11:59:03 <topi`> it's still early morning in Massachusetts
1244 2011-04-21 11:59:37 JaredW has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1245 2011-04-21 12:00:53 <dirtyfil1hy> is the mtgox api getFunds call working for everybody else?
1246 2011-04-21 12:01:57 JaredW has joined
1247 2011-04-21 12:02:00 <sacarlson> what if you start a network with a frozen number of coins that are already produced from the start and so from day one the only method for minners to make money is with fee's?
1248 2011-04-21 12:03:20 <edcba> how do you distribute money ?
1249 2011-04-21 12:03:39 <sacarlson> edcba it is purchased with btc
1250 2011-04-21 12:04:03 <edcba> what's the point then ?
1251 2011-04-21 12:04:13 <topi`> sacarlson: then, there is no controlled inflation
1252 2011-04-21 12:04:37 <topi`> there are valid reasons why you want to have some controlled form of inflation (while ppl are still slowly adopting the new currency)
1253 2011-04-21 12:04:40 <sacarlson> edcba: to trade something else like a corporation or other entity
1254 2011-04-21 12:05:26 <edcba> sacarlson: wait for all bitcoins to be generated and you get your scheme
1255 2011-04-21 12:05:57 <sacarlson> topi`: no but the value of the corportion or entity might get more or less valueable over time and people can trade it as the value changes
1256 2011-04-21 12:06:52 <sacarlson> edcba: I already have my proto coin creating new coins as we speak up to 800 pbtc
1257 2011-04-21 12:07:09 <edcba> so ?
1258 2011-04-21 12:07:11 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1259 2011-04-21 12:07:30 <sacarlson> edcba: so I don't have to wait for all the btc to be created to trade them
1260 2011-04-21 12:07:43 <sipa> but you can already trade them...
1261 2011-04-21 12:08:15 <sacarlson> sipa: edcba: yes so why would I have to wait for all the btc to be created then?
1262 2011-04-21 12:08:52 <sipa> you'd have a lot more difficulty bootstrapping your economy if they all existed up front
1263 2011-04-21 12:08:57 <topi`> you can already trade them, and their value is being modified by the constant inflation (new coins generated over time)
1264 2011-04-21 12:09:05 <topi`> agree with sipa.
1265 2011-04-21 12:09:29 <sipa> "Hey, i'd like to buy your company, i'll give you 1000 of these virtual credits i've invented!" - "Eh, and how many of those are there? I have have 20.9 million left!"
1266 2011-04-21 12:10:07 <sacarlson> the max number to ever create on pbtc will be 10000 so they should all be created in 10 or so days
1267 2011-04-21 12:10:26 <sipa> what's the point?
1268 2011-04-21 12:10:59 <sacarlson> sipa: to test a curency after they have all been created?
1269 2011-04-21 12:11:25 <sipa> why would anyone use it?
1270 2011-04-21 12:11:47 <sacarlson> sipa: to trade other things other than currency
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1272 2011-04-21 12:12:43 Guest2932 has joined
1273 2011-04-21 12:14:02 <genjix> topi`: so you have no code online?
1274 2011-04-21 12:14:02 <edcba> sacarlson: what advantage vs bitcoin ?
1275 2011-04-21 12:14:44 <sacarlson> edcba: there is no advantage it doesn't replace bitcoin the same way the the stock exchange doen't replace the usd
1276 2011-04-21 12:15:04 <sacarlson> edcba: they will coexist
1277 2011-04-21 12:15:27 <sipa> it needs some advantage if you want people to switch
1278 2011-04-21 12:15:48 <sipa> stocks and usd both have advantages over eachother
1279 2011-04-21 12:16:23 <topi`> genjix: nope. but I wanted to join jaromil's GNUifying efforst :)
1280 2011-04-21 12:16:24 <topi`> efforts
1281 2011-04-21 12:16:27 <sacarlson> edcba: the advantage is that some small busness can raise money on a venture to open a small shop and to do so can sell shares to a group of people willing to risk part of there asetes
1282 2011-04-21 12:16:40 <edcba> you can do it with bitcoin too
1283 2011-04-21 12:16:54 <topi`> genjix: I mean I have no code relating to *bitcoin* online, but if you are interested in my linux kernel codes, that's a different issue ;)
1284 2011-04-21 12:17:06 <genjix> yeah show me
1285 2011-04-21 12:17:07 <Blitzboom> inflation is good for the beginning
1286 2011-04-21 12:17:39 <Blitzboom> i think most people in the community got to bitcoin by mining
1287 2011-04-21 12:17:52 <Blitzboom> thatâll change now of course
1288 2011-04-21 12:19:10 <sacarlson> in the case of a company if they need more money then the owners of the outstanding company coins can vote on how they want the company to be run
1289 2011-04-21 12:19:39 <edcba> ok you want to have some voting system also
1290 2011-04-21 12:19:40 <sacarlson> and posibly isue a new set of coins to raise more money
1291 2011-04-21 12:19:56 <topi`> genjix: http://joshua.raleigh.nc.us/docs/linux-2.4.10_html/315378.html
1292 2011-04-21 12:20:02 <sacarlson> edcba: yes I do I want to be able to prove who holds what number of coins
1293 2011-04-21 12:20:17 <topi`> but Peter restructured the code and merged it with 8390.c so most of it is now gone :)
1294 2011-04-21 12:20:46 <edcba> maybe you can do that with scripts
1295 2011-04-21 12:20:56 <genjix> cool
1296 2011-04-21 12:21:04 <jaromil> topi`: jump in, send me an ssh key
1297 2011-04-21 12:21:07 <sacarlson> edcba: and I think that can be done by a site register that you state what your bitcoin address is at the time of the vote and you send your self all you coins that will be recorded as how many votes you have
1298 2011-04-21 12:21:10 <jaromil> i'm just compiling on osx now
1299 2011-04-21 12:21:17 <noagendamarket> I actually think its a good idea for a website mini economy
1300 2011-04-21 12:21:35 <noagendamarket> as a form of virtualo currency
1301 2011-04-21 12:22:06 <noagendamarket> members who use your site can generate the sites credits or something
1302 2011-04-21 12:22:09 <topi`> jaromil: I can also compile for OSX
1303 2011-04-21 12:22:24 <topi`> jaromil: do you mean a ssh pubkey so that I can log on your system?
1304 2011-04-21 12:22:35 <noagendamarket> your site is the only one that redeems them
1305 2011-04-21 12:22:51 <edcba> ok maybe we should do bitcoin2 with dns support, stock exchanges, votes, faster transactions, revamped protocol
1306 2011-04-21 12:23:07 <edcba> by dns support i mean p2p dns registration
1307 2011-04-21 12:23:23 <noagendamarket> feature bloat
1308 2011-04-21 12:23:23 <Blitzboom> sounds like bloatcoin
1309 2011-04-21 12:23:23 <sacarlson> so with that people will be able to trade ownership of companies or realestate without a name attached to it
1310 2011-04-21 12:23:35 <edcba> yes feature bloat exactly
1311 2011-04-21 12:23:54 <noagendamarket> if you have a stock exchange with each stock having its own block chain
1312 2011-04-21 12:24:38 <Blitzboom> talking about bitcoin 2 while bitcoin itself is still in beta, lol
1313 2011-04-21 12:24:42 <noagendamarket> you might want different amounts of coins
1314 2011-04-21 12:25:15 <edcba> ok bitcoin 0. whatever then
1315 2011-04-21 12:25:46 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: each company that sells coins can decide on how many they want to sell or isue
1316 2011-04-21 12:25:52 <Blitzboom> i donât think bitcoin should be anything else other than a payment system
1317 2011-04-21 12:25:58 <Blitzboom> and currency
1318 2011-04-21 12:26:08 <Blitzboom> everything else can be built on top of it
1319 2011-04-21 12:26:13 <sacarlson> Blitzboom: it's a trading system
1320 2011-04-21 12:26:35 <Blitzboom> no, bitcoin is cash
1321 2011-04-21 12:26:59 <sacarlson> well with this addition it can now become a trading system https://github.com/sacarlson/bitcoin
1322 2011-04-21 12:27:05 <edcba> i see bitcoin as timestamping system...
1323 2011-04-21 12:27:20 <sacarlson> bitcoin is an accounting system
1324 2011-04-21 12:27:24 <sipa> it's not
1325 2011-04-21 12:28:18 <sacarlson> sipa: it accounts for transactions
1326 2011-04-21 12:28:30 <sipa> yes, but it's unidirectional
1327 2011-04-21 12:28:39 <sipa> it only transmits value
1328 2011-04-21 12:28:48 <sipa> it doesn't say "exchange this for this"
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1330 2011-04-21 12:29:15 <sacarlson> sipa: no the store or market does that
1331 2011-04-21 12:29:22 <sipa> of course
1332 2011-04-21 12:29:26 <sipa> so they do the accounting
1333 2011-04-21 12:30:16 <sacarlson> sipa: well the bitcoin code also does your legers to account who you gave how much and what you have left
1334 2011-04-21 12:30:58 <sacarlson> and that information is also kept in the blocks
1335 2011-04-21 12:33:21 agricocb has joined
1336 2011-04-21 12:33:35 <noagendamarket> you could have corporate networks that never touch the internet but they can use a blockchain to reward their workers with brownie points
1337 2011-04-21 12:33:53 <noagendamarket> everyone inb the company could see who got the most brownies
1338 2011-04-21 12:34:06 <noagendamarket> workers then redeem their brownie points
1339 2011-04-21 12:34:08 <noagendamarket> :)
1340 2011-04-21 12:34:25 mologie has joined
1341 2011-04-21 12:34:53 <noagendamarket> the brownie points could then be used to work out bonuses
1342 2011-04-21 12:35:02 <noagendamarket> for the workers
1343 2011-04-21 12:35:07 <sacarlson> the problem I see is for these posible smaller networks may not be stable from attacks from groups that put more cpu power into it so as far as that I hope someone else has more ideas
1344 2011-04-21 12:35:33 <edcba> that's why you use bitcoin to store some proof
1345 2011-04-21 12:36:10 <edcba> and i see it as timestamping service
1346 2011-04-21 12:36:18 <sacarlson> edcba: how would the other network attach to bitcoin for proof?
1347 2011-04-21 12:36:41 <edcba> hash something put the hash in a block
1348 2011-04-21 12:36:46 <edcba> block/transaction
1349 2011-04-21 12:37:03 <genjix> phantomcircuit: hey
1350 2011-04-21 12:39:21 <sacarlson> edcba: well the bitcoin and proto coin are identical at this point I had no plans to make them connect, I just hoped they could be used as two coins as trading silver coins for gold ones you pass me some of those I will give you these maybe through an escrow
1351 2011-04-21 12:39:26 xlogik has joined
1352 2011-04-21 12:40:15 <sacarlson> is did see a cool article about an uncentralized escrow that I thought might have hope
1353 2011-04-21 12:41:04 <noagendamarket> well we have s stock exchange :)
1354 2011-04-21 12:41:14 <genjix> phantomcircuit: heyheyhey
1355 2011-04-21 12:41:27 <noagendamarket> you could probably list different bitcin versions on
1356 2011-04-21 12:41:29 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: yes I trade in in and pay $9 per trade
1357 2011-04-21 12:42:07 <noagendamarket> where do you get that figure ?
1358 2011-04-21 12:42:09 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: oh you mean the bitcoin-otc yes that would be the place to start
1359 2011-04-21 12:42:37 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: from fidelity.com
1360 2011-04-21 12:43:25 <noagendamarket> hahaah no
1361 2011-04-21 12:43:28 <noagendamarket> http://glbse.com/
1362 2011-04-21 12:43:35 <noagendamarket> the bitcoin stock exchange
1363 2011-04-21 12:43:49 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: for testing I think I'll sell a bond on bitcoin-otc of my coin that will pay at the end of some period of time interest
1364 2011-04-21 12:44:04 <noagendamarket> thats what glbse is for
1365 2011-04-21 12:45:11 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: that looks very cool thanks I'll take a close look at that later
1366 2011-04-21 12:45:20 <ersi> lol, only front page works :o
1367 2011-04-21 12:45:56 <noagendamarket> ersi thats because its a client
1368 2011-04-21 12:46:11 <noagendamarket> a p2p stock exchange
1369 2011-04-21 12:46:59 <ersi> mhm
1370 2011-04-21 12:48:42 <mrb_> hmm so the 2 largest pools now control 49% of the global hashrate.
1371 2011-04-21 12:49:22 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1372 2011-04-21 12:49:53 <Blitzboom> needs more competing pools
1373 2011-04-21 12:50:04 <ArtForz> needs more cowbell
1374 2011-04-21 12:52:35 bonsaikitten is now known as DrEeevil
1375 2011-04-21 13:04:18 <Kiba> there's a lot of buzz about bitcoin!
1376 2011-04-21 13:06:31 danlucraft has joined
1377 2011-04-21 13:08:36 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 1260000 2d 6h
1378 2011-04-21 13:08:37 <gribble> 0.460743074076
1379 2011-04-21 13:08:55 <Kiba> ;getrating kiba
1380 2011-04-21 13:09:31 <theorbtwo> mrb_: Interesting. A little bit more, and the two acting in collusion will be able to do some attacks...
1381 2011-04-21 13:10:25 <noagendamarket> yes
1382 2011-04-21 13:10:28 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1383 2011-04-21 13:10:29 <noagendamarket> thats not good
1384 2011-04-21 13:10:49 dbitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1385 2011-04-21 13:10:49 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1386 2011-04-21 13:10:58 <noagendamarket> we need another pool
1387 2011-04-21 13:11:29 <Blitzboom> we have other pools
1388 2011-04-21 13:11:40 <Blitzboom> but apparently theyâre not very popular
1389 2011-04-21 13:11:44 <noagendamarket> no
1390 2011-04-21 13:12:03 <ArtForz> pools are easy enough to monitor.
1391 2011-04-21 13:12:18 <sipa> i don't think they could do much wrong before the community noticed
1392 2011-04-21 13:12:25 <sipa> their blocks are publicly known
1393 2011-04-21 13:12:25 <ArtForz> yep
1394 2011-04-21 13:16:34 <noagendamarket> they arent ddosing anyone
1395 2011-04-21 13:17:11 <noagendamarket> can you mine for all of them at once ?
1396 2011-04-21 13:17:22 <da2ce7> g'day people!
1397 2011-04-21 13:18:13 <theorbtwo> noagendamarket: Sure, but as I understand it, only one pool will win each time around.
1398 2011-04-21 13:23:10 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
1399 2011-04-21 13:23:21 dbitcoin has joined
1400 2011-04-21 13:24:29 darrob has joined
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1404 2011-04-21 13:30:02 antivigilante has joined
1405 2011-04-21 13:34:02 <noagendamarket> sounds like bitdns but using mining pools
1406 2011-04-21 13:35:16 <edcba> if you have enough ppl to mount an attack on bitcoin that means you created a new money...
1407 2011-04-21 13:35:26 berkes has joined
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1409 2011-04-21 13:37:50 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
1410 2011-04-21 13:37:51 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.172,"low":1.1345,"vol":15064,"buy":1.1669,"sell":1.1689,"last":1.169}}
1411 2011-04-21 13:39:51 <noagendamarket> poolcoins ?
1412 2011-04-21 13:42:06 antivigilante has joined
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1415 2011-04-21 13:47:54 stonetz has joined
1416 2011-04-21 13:48:36 <genjix> hey stonetz
1417 2011-04-21 13:50:07 <stonetz> hey man
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1419 2011-04-21 13:59:05 devon_hillard has joined
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1421 2011-04-21 14:03:02 khalahan_ is now known as khal
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1423 2011-04-21 14:06:04 glassresistor has joined
1424 2011-04-21 14:06:37 <genjix> does bitcoin use tcp
1425 2011-04-21 14:06:41 bitcoiner has joined
1426 2011-04-21 14:07:51 <sipa> yes
1427 2011-04-21 14:10:38 TD_ has joined
1428 2011-04-21 14:13:42 <jaromil> yay, i've got the autotools branch to compile correctly on osx
1429 2011-04-21 14:16:53 wolfspraul has joined
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1432 2011-04-21 14:35:10 <BlueMatt> jaromil: do you have a repo you can link for that?
1433 2011-04-21 14:36:46 jackmcbarn has joined
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1440 2011-04-21 14:55:05 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
1441 2011-04-21 14:56:27 DukeOfURL has joined
1442 2011-04-21 14:56:28 JackRabiit has joined
1443 2011-04-21 14:56:42 <JackRabiit> anyone wanna come play poker at betco.in?
1444 2011-04-21 14:56:58 sabalaba has joined
1445 2011-04-21 14:57:49 <JackRabiit> i guess not
1446 2011-04-21 14:58:42 skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a3pre)
1447 2011-04-21 14:58:58 darrob has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1448 2011-04-21 14:59:36 <Kiba> hmm
1449 2011-04-21 14:59:41 <Kiba> JackRabiit: nopey
1450 2011-04-21 14:59:46 * Kiba is working on the google extension
1451 2011-04-21 14:59:50 AmpEater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1452 2011-04-21 15:00:02 <JackRabiit> Hey Kiba how do we specify someones name like that?
1453 2011-04-21 15:00:19 <Kiba> /me blah
1454 2011-04-21 15:01:09 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1455 2011-04-21 15:01:23 * JackRabiit snuffs
1456 2011-04-21 15:01:27 darrob has joined
1457 2011-04-21 15:01:48 <JackRabiit> You specified my name, How did you do that
1458 2011-04-21 15:01:53 * JackRabiit Kiba: Did you just do this?
1459 2011-04-21 15:02:15 <Kiba> tab
1460 2011-04-21 15:02:24 <ArtForz> JackRabiit: modern irc clients have tab nick completion
1461 2011-04-21 15:02:36 zyb has joined
1462 2011-04-21 15:04:28 skeledrew has joined
1463 2011-04-21 15:05:37 <BlueMatt> jaromil: github.com/jaromil/bitcoin/ autotools supports osx autotools, correct?
1464 2011-04-21 15:05:55 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1466 2011-04-21 15:06:20 JackRabiit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1472 2011-04-21 15:10:18 Donald is now known as Guest71344
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1475 2011-04-21 15:13:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the poll is perfectly clear
1476 2011-04-21 15:14:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: Insti specifically asked a question because he didnt understand it
1477 2011-04-21 15:15:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: just the low-level vs high-level one
1478 2011-04-21 15:17:07 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1479 2011-04-21 15:20:55 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: these examples better? https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6206.msg90995#msg90995
1480 2011-04-21 15:21:34 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: much better, thanks
1481 2011-04-21 15:21:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: do I need to reset the poll?
1482 2011-04-21 15:21:47 <BlueMatt> I dont think so
1483 2011-04-21 15:21:50 <luke-jr> k
1484 2011-04-21 15:22:12 <BlueMatt> Though I always prefer polls where people can change their vote if they change their mind after reading the discussions...
1485 2011-04-21 15:22:14 f3n has joined
1486 2011-04-21 15:22:40 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I didn't write the forum software
1487 2011-04-21 15:22:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: its an option on the poll create thinggy
1488 2011-04-21 15:23:03 <BlueMatt> and maybe in edit poll
1489 2011-04-21 15:23:04 <Kiba> I acheive a level of enlightenment
1490 2011-04-21 15:23:10 <Kiba> today
1491 2011-04-21 15:26:34 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: god I hate bitcoin on windows, I build on winserv2003 and it crashes on win7, build it on win7 and I get graphics artifacts
1492 2011-04-21 15:26:39 B0g4r7 has joined
1493 2011-04-21 15:30:57 zyb has joined
1494 2011-04-21 15:31:04 Pander has joined
1495 2011-04-21 15:31:50 <Pander> ArtForz: you wanna have a laugh about what AMD is writing me?
1496 2011-04-21 15:32:07 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: graphics artifacts in bitcoind? :P
1497 2011-04-21 15:32:12 <ArtForz> sure
1498 2011-04-21 15:32:14 <BlueMatt> no bitocoin
1499 2011-04-21 15:32:27 <jaromil> BlueMatt: yes those now compile on osx (without wx gui)
1500 2011-04-21 15:32:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I see no way to allow changing votes
1501 2011-04-21 15:32:30 <BlueMatt> but I'm not gonna build half with winserv2003 and the other half with win7
1502 2011-04-21 15:32:35 <jaromil> honestly i'm not interested in the wx gui
1503 2011-04-21 15:32:36 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: either on a new or old poll
1504 2011-04-21 15:32:42 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: shame, I say just leave it
1505 2011-04-21 15:32:50 <ArtForz> bitocoino?
1506 2011-04-21 15:32:51 <jaromil> i've seen it crashing and i dislike wx. since bitcoin has json rpc then i prefer gui separation
1507 2011-04-21 15:33:16 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i'm testing build on cygwin32 as we speak
1508 2011-04-21 15:33:44 <jaromil> then basically the pull req is ready
1509 2011-04-21 15:33:49 <Pander> I wrote them that setting GPU fan speed to auto is resulting in shutdown of fan speed
1510 2011-04-21 15:34:02 <Pander> that it was a bug and they should fix it
1511 2011-04-21 15:34:02 <ArtForz> yeah, add enough stuff to have the same functionality as gui over rpc, then kill gui with fire
1512 2011-04-21 15:34:13 Stellar has quit (Quit: w00t)
1513 2011-04-21 15:34:49 <Pander> Then they wrote me that I should not edit the drivers or software. I thought they were misinterpreting my report, so I told them I didn't edit their software and use it as how they ship it.
1514 2011-04-21 15:35:03 <BlueMatt> but one straight gui client is so much better for the average, stupid, user
1515 2011-04-21 15:35:15 <Pander> Their reply was: "The above steps you mentioned are editing the drivers functions. Actions like this have the potential to void your warranty."
1516 2011-04-21 15:35:30 <jaromil> BlueMatt: you are right, but then one can bundle things together and script them
1517 2011-04-21 15:35:38 <ArtForz> have the gui spawn bitcoind if it isn't running already
1518 2011-04-21 15:35:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: drastically clarified https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6207.msg90999#msg90999 too
1519 2011-04-21 15:35:53 <jaromil> like: start bitcoind, give a progress bar until has started, then fire up a browser on the js gui
1520 2011-04-21 15:35:54 <BlueMatt> that just makes it more complicated
1521 2011-04-21 15:35:58 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I think perhaps I should reset that one
1522 2011-04-21 15:36:03 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1523 2011-04-21 15:36:07 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: not really
1524 2011-04-21 15:36:07 <Pander> So AMD is offering functionality to help you void the warrenty...
1525 2011-04-21 15:36:12 <ArtForz> Pander: yep
1526 2011-04-21 15:36:23 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: I much prefer a libbitcoin
1527 2011-04-21 15:36:37 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: what's the point?
1528 2011-04-21 15:36:47 <jaromil> i also aim at libbitcoin
1529 2011-04-21 15:36:47 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: LOL
1530 2011-04-21 15:37:00 <BlueMatt> its better than two processes
1531 2011-04-21 15:37:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: this coming from the guy who just decided to *static* link UPnP
1532 2011-04-21 15:37:02 <jaromil> that's why it's autotool/libtool what i'm going to propose
1533 2011-04-21 15:37:12 <Pander> ArtForz: That's the thanks you get for reporting a problem..
1534 2011-04-21 15:37:15 <ArtForz> so you start 2 clients both using libbitcoin, which one is the network node?
1535 2011-04-21 15:37:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that was a necessity for obvious reasons
1536 2011-04-21 15:37:30 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: how many people will run 2 clients?
1537 2011-04-21 15:37:48 <BlueMatt> for the people on here, bitcoind is much better, for the average user, one client is better
1538 2011-04-21 15:38:16 <ArtForz> p2p net/miner host should be a daemon
1539 2011-04-21 15:38:37 <ArtForz> theres zero reason to have multiple instances of it per box
1540 2011-04-21 15:39:32 <BlueMatt> I dont really mind that, but I find it much easier to just have one binary at least for the average user who will be using one bitcoin instance
1541 2011-04-21 15:39:46 Pander has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110323143040])
1542 2011-04-21 15:40:03 * Diablo-D3 flexes muscles
1543 2011-04-21 15:40:15 <ArtForz> hey... actually that sounds like a pretty good idea
1544 2011-04-21 15:40:42 <ArtForz> hrrrm
1545 2011-04-21 15:40:47 <BlueMatt> ...?
1546 2011-04-21 15:40:48 codemojo has joined
1547 2011-04-21 15:40:54 * jaromil observes the enormous Diablo-D3 dick and advices people to make space
1548 2011-04-21 15:41:03 <ArtForz> wallet handling in gui/cmdline client, external pure network node w/ block storage
1549 2011-04-21 15:41:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it was absolutely unnecessary
1550 2011-04-21 15:41:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: could I request a Win7 bitcoind, even if not nightly? ;)
1551 2011-04-21 15:41:39 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I could do that if you need
1552 2011-04-21 15:41:44 <jaromil> luke-jr: i'm just compiling it
1553 2011-04-21 15:41:54 <jaromil> 32?
1554 2011-04-21 15:41:56 <luke-jr> yeah
1555 2011-04-21 15:41:59 <ArtForz> one benefit, you could nicely seperate outside-facing and wallet handling components
1556 2011-04-21 15:42:02 <luke-jr> ideally with UPnP default on
1557 2011-04-21 15:42:09 <luke-jr> eg, USE_UPNP=1
1558 2011-04-21 15:42:18 <jaromil> mmmm yea remember i've put that flag
1559 2011-04-21 15:42:23 <jaromil> i'm not sure i have the lib on the build
1560 2011-04-21 15:43:07 <jaromil> well it takes me a while. good reminder the upnp
1561 2011-04-21 15:43:13 <jaromil> i have a binary for osx without upnp already
1562 2011-04-21 15:43:15 <ArtForz> you could do proper priv seperation (network node has no reason to access wallet)
1563 2011-04-21 15:43:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: building...
1564 2011-04-21 15:44:10 <ArtForz> and you could pull stunts like dozens-100s of wallets on a single network node
1565 2011-04-21 15:44:28 <luke-jr> ArtForz: yep, that's what I envision
1566 2011-04-21 15:44:33 <jaromil> then you are better off with BlueMatt compiling
1567 2011-04-21 15:44:37 <jaromil> i am debugging autotools atm
1568 2011-04-21 15:44:44 <luke-jr> when Bitcoin gets big, SOHO routers with a checkbox to run a Bitcoin peer for the network
1569 2011-04-21 15:45:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: thanks. is it with UPnP enabled by default, or no?
1570 2011-04-21 15:45:10 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: no, I totally agree, its a good idea, the problem I have is its overcomplicated for the average user (that means bigger binaries, more processes running, more overhead checking communications between them, etc)
1571 2011-04-21 15:45:17 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: sure, I can do that
1572 2011-04-21 15:45:19 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: yes
1573 2011-04-21 15:45:35 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: I dont have git so I have to go get it from github...one min
1574 2011-04-21 15:45:41 <luke-jr> XD
1575 2011-04-21 15:45:43 <ArtForz> though I think plenty p2p things nowadays consist of split service + frontend
1576 2011-04-21 15:45:54 <ArtForz> mostly a unixy thing I guess
1577 2011-04-21 15:46:14 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: I dont know of one
1578 2011-04-21 15:46:28 agricocb has joined
1579 2011-04-21 15:46:36 <BlueMatt> but then again a bittorrent client etc is very different then bitcoin
1580 2011-04-21 15:47:10 <jaromil> BlueMatt: what version of libdb and db_cxx you use on win32 ?
1581 2011-04-21 15:47:12 mologie has joined
1582 2011-04-21 15:47:22 <jaromil> cygwin has max 4.5
1583 2011-04-21 15:47:29 <jaromil> and no _cxx
1584 2011-04-21 15:47:29 <BlueMatt> 4.7.25 NC
1585 2011-04-21 15:47:48 <jaromil> gosh. compiled from source on your own?
1586 2011-04-21 15:47:50 <BlueMatt> yea
1587 2011-04-21 15:47:55 <jaromil> are you aware of libdb versioning issues?
1588 2011-04-21 15:47:57 <BlueMatt> I compiled everything
1589 2011-04-21 15:48:17 <BlueMatt> jaromil: what kind of versioning issues?
1590 2011-04-21 15:48:21 <jaromil> i'm hating it
1591 2011-04-21 15:48:28 <jaromil> it upgrades the database silently
1592 2011-04-21 15:48:34 <jaromil> and drops backward compat
1593 2011-04-21 15:48:58 <ArtForz> top of my head, freenet (daemon with web interface), tor (daemon, various gui frontends to configure it), various nntp downloaders
1594 2011-04-21 15:49:01 <BlueMatt> oh, yea that is a problem
1595 2011-04-21 15:49:06 <jaromil> so if you copy your .dat to a debian 6 for instance
1596 2011-04-21 15:49:21 <jaromil> there is bitcoind package compiled with libdb 4.8
1597 2011-04-21 15:49:34 <jaromil> will update and then the .dat won't run anymore on win with your build
1598 2011-04-21 15:49:38 <ArtForz> 4.7 - 4.8 only changed journal format
1599 2011-04-21 15:49:40 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: interesting, but those aren't really the same as bitcoin either. There really isnt a comparison
1600 2011-04-21 15:49:44 <ArtForz> yeah
1601 2011-04-21 15:49:48 <jgarzik> bittorrent clients tend to be monolithic (with an option for daemon)
1602 2011-04-21 15:49:50 <jgarzik> ditto gnutella
1603 2011-04-21 15:49:55 <jgarzik> /limewire
1604 2011-04-21 15:50:04 octarine has left ()
1605 2011-04-21 15:50:20 <BlueMatt> bitcoin is somewhere between bittorrent/gnutella/etc and freenet/tor/etc in application so...
1606 2011-04-21 15:50:42 <jaromil> so BlueMatt what is your intention?
1607 2011-04-21 15:50:47 <jaromil> so far the situations is:
1608 2011-04-21 15:50:48 <jgarzik> with a libbitcoin it's irrelevant, as you can create whatever app you want, and they'll all run properly
1609 2011-04-21 15:50:51 <ArtForz> jaromil: iirc the .dat format didnt change, only the log in database/
1610 2011-04-21 15:50:54 <jgarzik> for the user, split is more parts to fail
1611 2011-04-21 15:51:00 <jgarzik> ArtForz: correct
1612 2011-04-21 15:51:12 <jaromil> ArtForz: between 4.6 and 4.7 ?
1613 2011-04-21 15:51:12 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1614 2011-04-21 15:51:22 <ArtForz> 4.7 and 4.8
1615 2011-04-21 15:51:30 <jaromil> ack
1616 2011-04-21 15:51:39 <jaromil> so the problem is between 4.6 and 4.8 right?
1617 2011-04-21 15:51:54 <BlueMatt> jaromil: IMHO monolithic clients for most users, Id love a ArtForz-style daemon for big networks/hosters/other situations. In the end we just need more different types of clients and the best way for that to happen is various aspecs of bitcoin split into libraries
1618 2011-04-21 15:52:06 <ArtForz> no clue about 4.6 (debian *stable* has 4.8 ffs)
1619 2011-04-21 15:52:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes
1620 2011-04-21 15:52:28 <jaromil> ArtForz: yes, but -ldb default links to 4.6
1621 2011-04-21 15:53:03 <jaromil> plus macports on osx have 4.6
1622 2011-04-21 15:53:03 <luke-jr> jaromil: Cygwin doesn't produce standard Windows binariesâ¦
1623 2011-04-21 15:54:01 <jaromil> i'm not aware of many issues on win32
1624 2011-04-21 15:54:06 <jaromil> i need someone to have a look at it
1625 2011-04-21 15:54:07 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1626 2011-04-21 15:54:53 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: IMO, best to keep each logical component separate, yet have the GUI part able to control them all behind the scenes if requested
1627 2011-04-21 15:55:00 <jaromil> BlueMatt: would you give it a ride? git clone git://code.dyne.org/bitcoin.git
1628 2011-04-21 15:55:03 <luke-jr> like Spesmilo does ;)
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1630 2011-04-21 15:55:46 <jaromil> there is also the --enable-upnp=1 or 0 flag
1631 2011-04-21 15:56:00 <grbgout> jgarzik: hey, how likely is it that cpuminer would starve a gpu miner? I realize it automatically renices to 19, and I see my GPU miner gain CPU % every now and again, but I saw practically no return on deepbit from the time I slept.
1632 2011-04-21 15:56:14 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how you want it?
1633 2011-04-21 15:56:18 <ArtForz> grbgout: quite possible
1634 2011-04-21 15:56:20 <grbgout> I thought maybe the cpu miner I started to play with namecoin might be inhibiting my GPU miner that is working on bitcoin in some way
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1636 2011-04-21 15:56:32 <ArtForz> gpu miners seem to be kinda latency sensitive
1637 2011-04-21 15:56:47 <grbgout> ArtForz: latency in what sense?
1638 2011-04-21 15:57:04 <ArtForz> not being able to service the callbacks instantly
1639 2011-04-21 15:57:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: EXE file? :P
1640 2011-04-21 15:57:37 <grbgout> ArtForz: hmm
1641 2011-04-21 15:57:45 <ArtForz> e.g. dynamic cpu freq switching causes severe drops in gpu hashrate
1642 2011-04-21 15:57:52 <grbgout> yeah
1643 2011-04-21 15:57:59 <ArtForz> simply because the cpu is halted for a few us while changing clock
1644 2011-04-21 15:58:06 <grbgout> I don't think I can renice the cpu miner any lower....
1645 2011-04-21 15:58:26 <ArtForz> weirdly enough, setting it fixed to lowest-possible speed is pretty much as fast as constant max speed
1646 2011-04-21 15:58:43 <grbgout> ArtForz: you mean for CPU clock?
1647 2011-04-21 15:58:50 <ArtForz> yes
1648 2011-04-21 15:58:51 <grbgout> I'll try renicing the gpu miner
1649 2011-04-21 15:58:55 <ArtForz> so it's not the absolute cpu speed thats causing the slowdown, but the stutters when it's switching
1650 2011-04-21 15:59:04 <jaromil> BlueMatt: which compiler you using? mingw?
1651 2011-04-21 15:59:12 <BlueMatt> jaromil: yea mingw is the standard
1652 2011-04-21 15:59:21 <jaromil> i mean env. gcc i guess
1653 2011-04-21 15:59:42 <jaromil> ok i understand that for you it might be more comfy to have a makefile as it is now
1654 2011-04-21 15:59:43 <ArtForz> my guess is even at lowest prio the cpu miner is hogging enough timeslices that the gpu miner is getting delayed
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1656 2011-04-21 16:00:09 <ArtForz> obv. thats just a guess
1657 2011-04-21 16:00:18 <ArtForz> could be something totally different
1658 2011-04-21 16:00:52 <grbgout> ArtForz: yeah, that could be. I'm seeing plenty of shares accepted, just very low returns in deepbit. My balance was in the .50 range (.50something) when I went to sleep, and now it's only .57. I knew I should have written it down :\
1659 2011-04-21 16:01:07 <ArtForz> well, that could be simply bad luck
1660 2011-04-21 16:01:13 rli1 has left ()
1661 2011-04-21 16:01:15 <grbgout> indeed
1662 2011-04-21 16:01:26 <grbgout> ArtForz: which is why I asked. Ruling things out.
1663 2011-04-21 16:01:28 agricocb has joined
1664 2011-04-21 16:01:29 <ArtForz> does your gpu miner print short-term hash/s?
1665 2011-04-21 16:01:44 <ArtForz> slowdown caused by cpu hogs should be pretty obvious
1666 2011-04-21 16:01:51 <grbgout> ArtForz: poclbm, I believe so if what you mean by short-term hash/s is what I think it is.
1667 2011-04-21 16:02:16 <grbgout> ArtForz: then I doubt it's a cpu induced slowdown, my khash/s output seems typical
1668 2011-04-21 16:02:26 <ArtForz> yeah, thatn it's just bad luck
1669 2011-04-21 16:02:30 <grbgout> k
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1671 2011-04-21 16:02:47 <ArtForz> I can see my 5970s drop from > 700 to ~670Mh/s by just enabling cpu freq switching
1672 2011-04-21 16:03:02 <jaromil> BlueMatt: do you have autotools in your build env?
1673 2011-04-21 16:03:31 <BlueMatt> jaromil: dont know, never installed it but I'd assume mingw comes with it
1674 2011-04-21 16:03:44 <jaromil> AFAIK not
1675 2011-04-21 16:03:58 <jaromil> try: autoreconf
1676 2011-04-21 16:03:58 <grbgout> ArtForz: how does a low cpu clock freq influence your gpu mining? I'm thinking of underclocking my CPU in order to reduce power consumption --- although I'll likely choose a governor that will automatically adjust based on what I'm doing.
1677 2011-04-21 16:04:37 <ArtForz> very little
1678 2011-04-21 16:04:57 <ArtForz> less than 0.2% difference in gpu hashrate between 800 and 2700 MHz
1679 2011-04-21 16:05:26 <grbgout> ArtForz: but the switching of the freqs could influence it, although only for a short period?
1680 2011-04-21 16:05:39 <ArtForz> yep
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1684 2011-04-21 16:05:55 <grbgout> k, good to know. thanks
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1686 2011-04-21 16:10:35 <luke-jr> ArtForz: so if I'm too lazy to figure out how to mess with dynamic CPU stuff, leaving a CPU miner running will easily improve GPU mining? :P
1687 2011-04-21 16:10:56 <grbgout> luke-jr: lol
1688 2011-04-21 16:11:05 <grbgout> good way to look at it
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1690 2011-04-21 16:11:46 <grbgout> hmm, just read that forbes article on bitcoins. And I justnoticed Gavin Andresen is not spelled Anderson. Oops.
1691 2011-04-21 16:12:12 <luke-jr> Mr. Andersonâ¦
1692 2011-04-21 16:12:19 <jgarzik> that Forbes article was lame
1693 2011-04-21 16:12:26 <jgarzik> The Time and MoneyLaundering.com pieces were better
1694 2011-04-21 16:12:38 <grbgout> Yeah, the forbes article didn't go into any details.
1695 2011-04-21 16:12:48 <BlueMatt> wait, we were featured in moneylaundering.com?
1696 2011-04-21 16:12:49 <BlueMatt> wtf?
1697 2011-04-21 16:12:53 <grbgout> dare I even visit a URL named MoneyLaundering.com ?
1698 2011-04-21 16:13:12 <jgarzik> The Forbes article is the first of many that will focus solely on "bitcoins exist to buy drugs!!!!! zomg!"
1699 2011-04-21 16:13:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, grbgout: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=5907.0
1700 2011-04-21 16:13:36 <Kiba> finally start work on bitcoin chrome extension
1701 2011-04-21 16:13:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I dont think it focused too much on that, though I agree less is better in that case
1702 2011-04-21 16:13:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it didn't look that way to meâ¦
1703 2011-04-21 16:13:43 <grbgout> it only touched on it briefly, and the counterpoint about cashing being used for the same purpose was made.
1704 2011-04-21 16:13:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, grbgout: copied due to paywall
1705 2011-04-21 16:13:54 <grbgout> jgarzik: thanks
1706 2011-04-21 16:13:57 <luke-jr> I am gratefuly that gavin clearly spoke of it negatively
1707 2011-04-21 16:13:58 <Kiba> https://github.com/kiba/chrome-bitcoin
1708 2011-04-21 16:14:05 <jgarzik> luke-jr: look at the headline and teaser, which is what most people scan first
1709 2011-04-21 16:14:06 <grbgout> luke-jr: likewise.
1710 2011-04-21 16:14:08 <Kiba> at present, it's an ungodly mess of a codebase
1711 2011-04-21 16:14:15 * jgarzik worked at CNN for many years
1712 2011-04-21 16:14:23 <jgarzik> you gotta understand how humans digest news
1713 2011-04-21 16:14:27 <Kiba> the original developer violate the principle of DRY
1714 2011-04-21 16:14:31 <BlueMatt> Kiba: you realize there is already a plugin
1715 2011-04-21 16:14:39 <BlueMatt> or is that a clone?
1716 2011-04-21 16:14:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: your build fails :x
1717 2011-04-21 16:14:51 <Kiba> BlueMatt: and I am fixing that damn plugin
1718 2011-04-21 16:14:55 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: you mean it still fails? wtf
1719 2011-04-21 16:15:01 <luke-jr> it won't even start:
1720 2011-04-21 16:15:08 <Kiba> first time I ever work on someone's codebase
1721 2011-04-21 16:15:09 <BlueMatt> it was even built on win7
1722 2011-04-21 16:15:13 <Kiba> and I even learn something cool too
1723 2011-04-21 16:15:14 <luke-jr> The program can't start because libgcc_s_dw2-1.dll is missing from your computerâ¦
1724 2011-04-21 16:15:30 <jgarzik> priority list, after many decades of the news business observing humans reading news: headline, subhead, first paragraph, last paragraph, meat.
1725 2011-04-21 16:16:16 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: that makes no sense...something should have been statically linked that wasnt...
1726 2011-04-21 16:16:29 <Kiba> humans are addicited to disaster porn and controversial things
1727 2011-04-21 16:17:31 <jgarzik> Forbes sub-head: "Want to buy socks or psilocybin without being traced? Bitcoins are for you."
1728 2011-04-21 16:17:42 <jgarzik> Out of two Gavin quotes, they chose: "Illegal stuff will be a niche for Bitcoin," admits Andresen.
1729 2011-04-21 16:18:04 <jgarzik> journalist spend a long time selecting quotes, out of an interview
1730 2011-04-21 16:18:07 sabalaba has joined
1731 2011-04-21 16:18:07 <jgarzik> journalists
1732 2011-04-21 16:18:29 <luke-jr> jgarzik: everyone needs socks
1733 2011-04-21 16:18:44 <grbgout> jgarzik: yeah, thats true. I noticed that as well :\
1734 2011-04-21 16:18:48 WakiMiko has joined
1735 2011-04-21 16:19:24 <jgarzik> And honestly, to a journalist writing a story, the quotes are the only thing that matters. The rest is fill created 30 minutes before deadline.
1736 2011-04-21 16:19:54 <jgarzik> They work for days to get quotes, then the rest is created minutes before deadline, with very little further b/g research.
1737 2011-04-21 16:20:16 <Kiba> cypherpunk rebells
1738 2011-04-21 16:20:21 <Kiba> rebels
1739 2011-04-21 16:23:46 Spenvo has joined
1740 2011-04-21 16:25:19 * Spenvo saw jgarzik mention a forbes article from afar, reading now
1741 2011-04-21 16:26:13 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: its not an ideal article, but I think its better that we have articles even if they arent ideal
1742 2011-04-21 16:28:26 <Spenvo> erg. The article fails to highlight the positive consequences of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange
1743 2011-04-21 16:28:53 <Spenvo> Not too surprising from Forbes though... Its readership stands to lose quite a bit from Bitcoin disruption
1744 2011-04-21 16:29:02 gat3way has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1745 2011-04-21 16:29:12 * Spenvo agrees with BlueMatt
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1751 2011-04-21 16:33:03 <sacarlson> so with my virgin coin am I correct that at the rate of the testnet difficulty at start that I will create about 7200 pbtc per day being the only minner?
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1783 2011-04-21 17:30:06 <ArtForz> wow, nearly back to all-time high @ mtgox
1784 2011-04-21 17:30:29 <TD_> some people will be making a killing on short term speculation
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1789 2011-04-21 17:30:57 <BlueMatt> I hope it corrects soon
1790 2011-04-21 17:31:11 <ArtForz> corrects in what direction?
1791 2011-04-21 17:31:52 <BlueMatt> down
1792 2011-04-21 17:32:00 <ArtForz> why hope that? wanna buy?
1793 2011-04-21 17:32:12 <BlueMatt> want to see adoption which means stability
1794 2011-04-21 17:33:13 zyb has joined
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1796 2011-04-21 17:33:20 <ArtForz> and you decide what the correct "stable" price is, right?
1797 2011-04-21 17:33:40 <TD> stability will come. then you'll look back on these times and wish you'd exploited the instability while it lasted ;)
1798 2011-04-21 17:33:44 <BlueMatt> stable == not change much, since its going up, I hope it goes down
1799 2011-04-21 17:33:55 <BlueMatt> TD: true enough
1800 2011-04-21 17:33:55 <ArtForz> it's not really going up much
1801 2011-04-21 17:34:05 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: in the past week its gone up a TON
1802 2011-04-21 17:34:27 <ArtForz> yep
1803 2011-04-21 17:34:33 <Blitzboom> supply and demand, BlueMatt
1804 2011-04-21 17:34:36 <ArtForz> yep
1805 2011-04-21 17:34:38 <Blitzboom> thereâs lots of demand right now
1806 2011-04-21 17:34:43 <ArtForz> we got mentioned in time and forbes ffs
1807 2011-04-21 17:35:03 <BlueMatt> yep, that does drive up the price
1808 2011-04-21 17:35:07 <ArtForz> yep
1809 2011-04-21 17:35:19 <BlueMatt> I just hope satoshi sells a bit now to keep the price down for the good of the currency
1810 2011-04-21 17:35:31 <TD> i doubt satoshi will sell for a long, long time
1811 2011-04-21 17:35:38 <ArtForz> well, I'd be worried above $5 or so
1812 2011-04-21 17:35:40 <TD> you can probably calculate a guesstime of how many he owns
1813 2011-04-21 17:35:56 <BlueMatt> TD: I agree, but that doesnt stop me from hoping
1814 2011-04-21 17:36:12 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: I'm not worried about the price just what the price changes say about bitcoin
1815 2011-04-21 17:36:44 <Blitzboom> bitcoin is not stable in price and wonât be for a long time
1816 2011-04-21 17:37:04 <Blitzboom> how can it be without a significant economy generating constant demand?
1817 2011-04-21 17:37:07 <BlueMatt> I agree, but again, this doesnt stop me from hoping
1818 2011-04-21 17:37:12 <ArtForz> and imo currently the orderbook looks a lot better than a few weeks ago
1819 2011-04-21 17:38:08 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf3a54ad049ec spesmilo/ (build_win32_dist.py main.py): py2exe-based script to build a "dist" dir of files needed to run on Windows http://tinyurl.com/62q9scn
1820 2011-04-21 17:38:24 pogden has joined
1821 2011-04-21 17:38:59 Spenvo has joined
1822 2011-04-21 17:39:03 * Kiba pay for hosting regularly but he doesn't rake enough profit
1823 2011-04-21 17:39:08 <ArtForz> spread between decent market orders is still a bit large
1824 2011-04-21 17:40:03 <Kiba> we need moar exchanges!
1825 2011-04-21 17:40:27 <ArtForz> we already have like... 5?
1826 2011-04-21 17:40:30 <Blitzboom> not really
1827 2011-04-21 17:40:35 <Blitzboom> http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
1828 2011-04-21 17:40:38 <Blitzboom> we have enough exchanges
1829 2011-04-21 17:40:49 <Kiba> we don't have any Asian exchanges
1830 2011-04-21 17:40:53 <Kiba> Japanese Yen missing
1831 2011-04-21 17:40:58 <Kiba> Chinese Yuan missing
1832 2011-04-21 17:41:03 <Kiba> and Korean Won missing
1833 2011-04-21 17:41:14 <BlueMatt> btcex can do jpy
1834 2011-04-21 17:41:32 <BlueMatt> everything else can be dont on -otc
1835 2011-04-21 17:41:35 <ArtForz> yeah, there's just zero interest
1836 2011-04-21 17:41:35 <Kiba> the last exchange was in March
1837 2011-04-21 17:41:53 <Blitzboom> guess why
1838 2011-04-21 17:41:53 <Kiba> it only appeals to Western audience
1839 2011-04-21 17:41:54 <BlueMatt> Kiba: so why would there be more exchanges
1840 2011-04-21 17:42:04 <Kiba> there's chinese users but they don't have any reason to be in the economy
1841 2011-04-21 17:42:07 <ArtForz> pretty much, yeah
1842 2011-04-21 17:42:11 <BlueMatt> if there are no trades, no one wants a new exchange
1843 2011-04-21 17:42:11 Spenvo_ has joined
1844 2011-04-21 17:42:12 <Blitzboom> cpt. obvious
1845 2011-04-21 17:42:15 <Kiba> BlueMatt: make it as easy to exchange bitcoin and other currency
1846 2011-04-21 17:42:25 <Blitzboom> but yeah
1847 2011-04-21 17:42:25 <BlueMatt> Kiba: I meant for jpy
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1849 2011-04-21 17:42:30 <Blitzboom> i donât like US focus
1850 2011-04-21 17:42:42 <ArtForz> what us focus?
1851 2011-04-21 17:42:57 <Blitzboom> dollar
1852 2011-04-21 17:43:10 <Kiba> Russian Rubes is active
1853 2011-04-21 17:43:15 <Kiba> but they're also worthless
1854 2011-04-21 17:43:23 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: last I checked, you, me, ArtForz were all in germany so I dont really think it is too us focused
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1857 2011-04-21 17:43:51 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: iâm talking about the exchanges
1858 2011-04-21 17:44:04 <Blitzboom> though mtgox will introduce euro iirc
1859 2011-04-21 17:44:10 <ArtForz> yeah, it'd make sense
1860 2011-04-21 17:44:11 <BlueMatt> Yea I cant wait for mtgeur
1861 2011-04-21 17:44:12 <Kiba> namecoin and bitcoin will be a piece of cake
1862 2011-04-21 17:44:37 <Blitzboom> namecoin? there seem to be too much issues with it
1863 2011-04-21 17:44:37 <ArtForz> considering SEPA eur wires to/from mtgox are faster than ACH from US
1864 2011-04-21 17:45:15 <Blitzboom> regarding the block generation rate etc.
1865 2011-04-21 17:45:32 <Blitzboom> btw, apropos media attention
1866 2011-04-21 17:45:43 <Blitzboom> peter sunde mentioned bitcoin somewhere
1867 2011-04-21 17:45:55 <Blitzboom> http://digitalmedia.strategyeye.com/article/Zjoy27tO8Y/2011/04/20/hot_company_profile_social_micropayments_platform_flattr/
1868 2011-04-21 17:46:52 <BlueMatt> wtf??? why does build-osx.txt say use bdb 4.8????
1869 2011-04-21 17:47:16 <Blitzboom> peter sunde>bram cohen
1870 2011-04-21 17:47:46 <ArtForz> the TBP guy?
1871 2011-04-21 17:47:52 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: yea
1872 2011-04-21 17:47:53 <ArtForz> *TPB
1873 2011-04-21 17:47:57 <Kiba> namecoin is still in the early day of existence
1874 2011-04-21 17:47:59 <Blitzboom> yup, and founder of flattr
1875 2011-04-21 17:48:06 <Kiba> give it time for them to work out the bugs
1876 2011-04-21 17:48:07 <ArtForz> wow. cool.
1877 2011-04-21 17:48:08 <BlueMatt> had no idea he founded flattr
1878 2011-04-21 17:48:15 <ArtForz> yeah, same
1879 2011-04-21 17:48:36 <BlueMatt> kinda surprised considering last i heard the entire pb crew had left sweden because they gave up on their legal case (or was that just one of them?)
1880 2011-04-21 17:48:51 <Kiba> piratebay is still alive!
1881 2011-04-21 17:49:03 <BlueMatt> Kiba: I meant the founders
1882 2011-04-21 17:49:18 <Blitzboom> and the xkcd owner randall munroe trades bitconi
1883 2011-04-21 17:49:20 <Kiba> anyway
1884 2011-04-21 17:49:20 <BlueMatt> tpb is owned by ????? and run by the swedish pirate party ie the swedish govt
1885 2011-04-21 17:49:24 <ArtForz> cue monthy python ref
1886 2011-04-21 17:49:24 <Kiba> I would like a nap
1887 2011-04-21 17:49:37 <ArtForz> fuck, can't type
1888 2011-04-21 17:49:51 <Kiba> so..I am gonna work on a bitcoinweekly article
1889 2011-04-21 17:50:09 <Blitzboom> another thing to watch out for ⦠openleaks will accept bitcoin donations
1890 2011-04-21 17:50:21 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: it will, or you just speculating?
1891 2011-04-21 17:50:30 <Kiba> seems really easy to convince charity to accept bitcoin
1892 2011-04-21 17:50:32 <Blitzboom> it will, founder stated it in some news
1893 2011-04-21 17:50:39 <Blitzboom> but he hasnât had the time yet
1894 2011-04-21 17:51:29 <Blitzboom> german: http://www.wdr.de/themen/computer/2/republica/domscheit_berg_150411.jhtml
1895 2011-04-21 17:51:31 <Blitzboom> search for bitcoin
1896 2011-04-21 17:51:39 <BlueMatt> nice
1897 2011-04-21 17:51:53 citiz3n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1898 2011-04-21 17:52:05 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: that link shows up as a white page to me
1899 2011-04-21 17:52:26 <Blitzboom> hm, works fine with me
1900 2011-04-21 17:52:36 <BlueMatt> damn websites that dont support chrome
1901 2011-04-21 17:52:38 <ArtForz> empty opage here
1902 2011-04-21 17:52:44 <ArtForz> firefox and opera
1903 2011-04-21 17:52:47 <Blitzboom> iâm using chrome
1904 2011-04-21 17:53:53 <Blitzboom> openleaks hasnât gotten active yet, right?
1905 2011-04-21 17:53:55 <BlueMatt> not even in google's cache (pro tip: if using chrome just add cache: to the url to pull up google's cache of the website)
1906 2011-04-21 17:53:58 <BlueMatt> love that feature
1907 2011-04-21 17:54:19 <BlueMatt> should work in any browser that defaults to searching google
1908 2011-04-21 17:54:35 <Blitzboom> i love how you can build custom searches
1909 2011-04-21 17:58:08 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r32e295b4789a spesmilo/ (main.py settings.py): replace os.system with subprocess.Popen so we can self-background bitcoind, and suppress the console window (on Windows) http://tinyurl.com/3omn54p
1910 2011-04-21 17:58:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r3b98e9c4cfba spesmilo/main.py: cleanly assume a socket.error when trying to stop (local) bitcoind means it isn't running anyway http://tinyurl.com/3knrpv9
1911 2011-04-21 18:03:57 <BlueMatt> everyone voted on the URI spec polls?
1912 2011-04-21 18:05:15 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1913 2011-04-21 18:07:05 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: nope, the 2 that were reset have only my vote still
1914 2011-04-21 18:07:31 <BlueMatt> oh I didnt realize you reset the other 2
1915 2011-04-21 18:07:41 <luke-jr> the clarifications there are significant IMO
1916 2011-04-21 18:07:50 <luke-jr> maybe I should bump them back to the top of the forum
1917 2011-04-21 18:07:54 <BlueMatt> probably
1918 2011-04-21 18:08:03 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r0b9f81bee3a2 spesmilo/main.py: blackhole stderr when running in Windows without a console http://tinyurl.com/3q8k7nj
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1923 2011-04-21 18:19:18 <Blitzboom> is the forbes magazine very popular in the US?
1924 2011-04-21 18:19:27 <Blitzboom> i just realized bitcoin is going to be in the print, too
1925 2011-04-21 18:19:35 <Blitzboom> "Forbes Magazine dated May 09, 2011"
1926 2011-04-21 18:19:37 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: wait really?
1927 2011-04-21 18:19:39 <BlueMatt> DAMN
1928 2011-04-21 18:19:41 sacarlson has joined
1929 2011-04-21 18:19:51 <BlueMatt> yea its fairly popular
1930 2011-04-21 18:20:06 <BlueMatt> its in the top x magazines in the us
1931 2011-04-21 18:20:21 <Blitzboom> nice
1932 2011-04-21 18:20:32 <Blitzboom> 2$/BTC soon
1933 2011-04-21 18:20:41 <BlueMatt> hopefully not
1934 2011-04-21 18:21:02 <Blitzboom> whatâs teh problem? corrections will take place
1935 2011-04-21 18:21:22 <Blitzboom> just like they did after the 1.1$ high
1936 2011-04-21 18:21:32 <ArtForz> probably bluematt sold his positions at 1.1 ;)
1937 2011-04-21 18:21:58 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: actually no, I still have all my bitcoins :)
1938 2011-04-21 18:23:21 <ArtForz> and I'm still speculating with the same 6kbtc (well, currently they're ~3kbtc and ~$5k) ;)
1939 2011-04-21 18:24:07 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: with just that you can move the market enough to swing the price back and forth and make money
1940 2011-04-21 18:24:32 <ArtForz> not really
1941 2011-04-21 18:24:37 <Blitzboom> not really
1942 2011-04-21 18:24:51 <Blitzboom> see bids @ order book
1943 2011-04-21 18:25:28 <ArtForz> yes, you can open a gap in the orderbook, but people arent *that* stupid anymore
1944 2011-04-21 18:25:34 <BlueMatt> 6k is .05 on the bids
1945 2011-04-21 18:25:36 <x6763> *if* he could make money on that at all, it probably wouldn't be much, and people would probably catch on and try to take advantage of the swings as well, making it even harder for him to make money
1946 2011-04-21 18:25:42 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: some of the bots are
1947 2011-04-21 18:26:12 <BlueMatt> well ok maybe not as much any more but a couple weeks ago you could really have
1948 2011-04-21 18:26:16 danlucraft has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1949 2011-04-21 18:26:19 <ArtForz> only has a decent chance of working if the market is stagnant
1950 2011-04-21 18:26:20 <BlueMatt> when the market was 90% bots anyway
1951 2011-04-21 18:26:28 <ArtForz> it never was
1952 2011-04-21 18:26:40 <BlueMatt> well 90% activity
1953 2011-04-21 18:26:48 <ArtForz> yes, and like 5% volume
1954 2011-04-21 18:26:53 <BlueMatt> it was just a couple bots but the activity was fairly predictable
1955 2011-04-21 18:27:50 <ArtForz> you can trigger a run with 5-10k, but you need to wait for a good moment and hope enough people jump on to turn a profit
1956 2011-04-21 18:28:05 <BlueMatt> yea
1957 2011-04-21 18:28:12 <BlueMatt> monday night
1958 2011-04-21 18:28:15 <Blitzboom> itâs a collusion!
1959 2011-04-21 18:28:15 brunner has joined
1960 2011-04-21 18:28:20 <Blitzboom> collusion bubble ponzi scheme
1961 2011-04-21 18:28:22 <BlueMatt> tends to be a buying night
1962 2011-04-21 18:28:38 <ArtForz> Blitzboom: nope, just herd mentality
1963 2011-04-21 18:29:00 mkppk has joined
1964 2011-04-21 18:29:02 <Blitzboom> just summing up some of the "criticism" of bitcoin
1965 2011-04-21 18:29:04 <ArtForz> currently theres too much trading volume and the spread is too small to make anything like that work without a vastly bigger bankroll
1966 2011-04-21 18:29:09 dolch has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1967 2011-04-21 18:29:15 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: collusion is only if 2 people agreed to do it at the same time
1968 2011-04-21 18:29:39 brunner has quit (Client Quit)
1969 2011-04-21 18:29:49 <Blitzboom> which you could
1970 2011-04-21 18:30:00 <Blitzboom> you could also do the same for buying though
1971 2011-04-21 18:30:04 <ArtForz> yep
1972 2011-04-21 18:30:29 <ArtForz> thats the fun part if you can pull it off, riding the wave both ways ;)
1973 2011-04-21 18:30:41 <BlueMatt> yep
1974 2011-04-21 18:30:59 <Blitzboom> either that or lose almost everything
1975 2011-04-21 18:31:18 <ArtForz> not really
1976 2011-04-21 18:32:34 <ArtForz> sell 20kbtc, drive price down to 0.90 or so, worst case nobody else sells, new buys pop up... you sold 20kbtc at 10% below market. not a *huge* loss
1977 2011-04-21 18:32:49 <ArtForz> buy 20k - same thing, other direction
1978 2011-04-21 18:32:59 <ArtForz> worst case you lose 10-15% or so
1979 2011-04-21 18:33:21 <Blitzboom> you could speculate that your gain is high enough to justify multiple attempts
1980 2011-04-21 18:33:51 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1981 2011-04-21 18:34:04 <ArtForz> yep, don't buy/sell more than you can afford. duh.
1982 2011-04-21 18:34:11 <ArtForz> same as any speculation
1983 2011-04-21 18:34:26 <Blitzboom> or gambling
1984 2011-04-21 18:34:42 <ArtForz> yeah, but with gambling the odds are usually worse
1985 2011-04-21 18:36:16 <jgarzik> still support at 1.2, 1.3, 1.4... as long as the Big Buyer maintains a pattern of slow, periodic buying, I doubt we'll see $2
1986 2011-04-21 18:37:34 <Blitzboom> not sure whether thereâs a single big buyer â¦
1987 2011-04-21 18:37:47 iera has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1988 2011-04-21 18:38:26 <jgarzik> there are multiple players in the market, and hangers-on, sure. But a single trading pattern keeps reoccuring, leading me to think it's one buyer
1989 2011-04-21 18:38:35 <BlueMatt> nice paper by reubgr
1990 2011-04-21 18:39:03 <BlueMatt> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1817857
1991 2011-04-21 18:40:20 iera has joined
1992 2011-04-21 18:42:34 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yep
1993 2011-04-21 18:46:07 <ArtForz> yup, and I agree, footnotes way too big
1994 2011-04-21 18:46:28 <jgarzik> yep -- though that seems standard for many papers
1995 2011-04-21 18:46:43 <jgarzik> makes it less readable
1996 2011-04-21 18:46:49 <ArtForz> some pages are 75% footnote, thats a bit... excessive
1997 2011-04-21 18:46:59 <ArtForz> yep
1998 2011-04-21 18:47:04 <BlueMatt> TD's comments exactly, and I agree
1999 2011-04-21 18:49:02 <sipa> cypherphunks?
2000 2011-04-21 18:52:29 <ArtForz> and footnotes spanning multiple pages...
2001 2011-04-21 18:52:36 <ArtForz> that makes shit *really* hard to follow
2002 2011-04-21 18:55:26 pogden has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2003 2011-04-21 18:57:34 <jgarzik> sipa: cyperpunks who listen to George Clinton and the P-Funk
2004 2011-04-21 18:57:43 <jgarzik> cyberpunks, even
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2008 2011-04-21 19:09:04 <genjix> in bitcoin the blocks are divided into 2 chunks right?
2009 2011-04-21 19:09:38 <jgarzik> genjix: ?
2010 2011-04-21 19:09:42 <genjix> is it a sha256(sha256(...)) of both chunks
2011 2011-04-21 19:09:57 <BlueMatt> headers and content
2012 2011-04-21 19:10:00 <genjix> jgarzik: in the network protocol
2013 2011-04-21 19:10:01 <BlueMatt> if thats what you mean
2014 2011-04-21 19:10:05 <jgarzik> genjix: it is sha256(sha256(80-byte block header))
2015 2011-04-21 19:10:11 <jgarzik> genjix: the merkle tree references the transactions
2016 2011-04-21 19:10:12 <genjix> ok thanks
2017 2011-04-21 19:10:36 <genjix> yep, just trying to make sense of the code
2018 2011-04-21 19:10:40 <jgarzik> genjix: the idea is to hash a constant-sized value, to reduce incentive for miners to hash only a 50-BTC empty block
2019 2011-04-21 19:10:53 <genjix> aha very cool
2020 2011-04-21 19:11:59 <BlueMatt> anyone else get errors in the asm in main.cpp when they try to compile bitcoin on osx?
2021 2011-04-21 19:12:24 <genjix> bitcoin is awesome
2022 2011-04-21 19:12:37 <BlueMatt> genjix: took you this long to figure that out?
2023 2011-04-21 19:12:52 MacRohard has joined
2024 2011-04-21 19:13:06 <genjix> what jgarzik said about it not encouraging miners to not attach transactions is awesome
2025 2011-04-21 19:13:12 <genjix> i never realised that was the reason why
2026 2011-04-21 19:13:29 <BlueMatt> its amazing how much satoshi thought through
2027 2011-04-21 19:13:59 tabsa has joined
2028 2011-04-21 19:14:02 <genjix> because they're always hashing a header of the same size, they have no reason to drop transactions as it doesn't make the headers smaller.
2029 2011-04-21 19:14:12 <BlueMatt> yep
2030 2011-04-21 19:14:48 <jgarzik> neat! ArtForz' client includes a merkle builder
2031 2011-04-21 19:14:54 <jgarzik> that saves me some time
2032 2011-04-21 19:15:02 pogden has joined
2033 2011-04-21 19:15:06 <BlueMatt> ArtForz's client?
2034 2011-04-21 19:15:26 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: http://pastebin.com/ZSM7iHZw
2035 2011-04-21 19:15:47 danlucraft has joined
2036 2011-04-21 19:15:49 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: a half-a-node. probably formed the basis for several half-a-nodes
2037 2011-04-21 19:16:03 * jgarzik uses it to monitor for TX's and blocks on the network
2038 2011-04-21 19:16:05 <BlueMatt> half-node as in node sans wallet or?
2039 2011-04-21 19:16:14 <BlueMatt> and sans blockchain
2040 2011-04-21 19:16:21 <ArtForz> bare network nodes, good enough for grabbing blocks/tx/addrs for stats
2041 2011-04-21 19:16:22 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: correct. no wallet, nothing stored on disk
2042 2011-04-21 19:16:34 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it can validate blocks
2043 2011-04-21 19:16:40 <BlueMatt> nice
2044 2011-04-21 19:16:41 <ArtForz> well, partially
2045 2011-04-21 19:16:54 <ArtForz> it relies on the node it's connected to to not hand it blocks containing invalid tx
2046 2011-04-21 19:17:01 <jgarzik> yeah
2047 2011-04-21 19:17:10 <ArtForz> = doesn't check tx for valid sigs or double-spends
2048 2011-04-21 19:17:39 <ArtForz> but assuming you only hang it off a normal bitcoi nnode for stats, thats not really a issue
2049 2011-04-21 19:17:52 <jgarzik> yep
2050 2011-04-21 19:18:19 <jgarzik> I use a modified version to poke xf2.org's proxy servers for each new block, implementing the long-poll feature
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2054 2011-04-21 19:19:05 <jgarzik> I was also thinking one could use it as a mining node. no wallet needed, if the generation TX goes to an existing address.
2055 2011-04-21 19:19:21 <jgarzik> use a real bitcoind to filter TX's, as you said
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2059 2011-04-21 19:25:25 <BlueMatt> when did we agree to switch osx bitcoin to a different bdb than every other platform?
2060 2011-04-21 19:26:34 <mizerydearia> ;;seen shazow
2061 2011-04-21 19:26:34 <gribble> I have not seen shazow.
2062 2011-04-21 19:27:37 <jaromil> BlueMatt: re: errors in the asm, try my branch on osx i've solved that
2063 2011-04-21 19:27:47 <jaromil> BlueMatt: basically deactivating asm via flasgs
2064 2011-04-21 19:27:55 <BlueMatt> jaromil: no I did it wrong, I was using g++ but should have been using llvm-g++
2065 2011-04-21 19:28:04 <jaromil> ack
2066 2011-04-21 19:28:07 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rf12c6d9eab3f spesmilo/main.py: blackhole stderr when running in Windows without a console http://tinyurl.com/627qljp
2067 2011-04-21 19:31:05 <TD> it would be useful for somebody to crawl the network and make graphs of version deployments
2068 2011-04-21 19:31:48 <BlueMatt> TD: there is one
2069 2011-04-21 19:32:06 <BlueMatt> TD: look for the map thread, there is a file with version info linked on that thread
2070 2011-04-21 19:32:22 <sipa> jgarzik: i have a C implementation of a caching merkle root calculator
2071 2011-04-21 19:32:57 <sipa> maybe i should try to get it integrated in the main client
2072 2011-04-21 19:33:22 <jgarzik> sipa: do you have a C implementation of CBlock, CTransaction and friends? I would much rather construct a mining node, like the one just described, in C
2073 2011-04-21 19:33:42 <sipa> no, it starts from tx headers
2074 2011-04-21 19:34:28 <ArtForz> should be rather simple (assuming you use a fixed coinbase txout)
2075 2011-04-21 19:34:45 <jgarzik> that's the plan
2076 2011-04-21 19:34:53 <sipa> ah, it was c++ apparently
2077 2011-04-21 19:35:06 <sipa> https://svn.ulyssis.org/repos/sipa/libbtc/merklecalc.{h,cpp}
2078 2011-04-21 19:36:05 <ArtForz> whoops, one problem
2079 2011-04-21 19:36:13 <ArtForz> how do you want to find tx fees?
2080 2011-04-21 19:36:22 <sipa> hmm, good point
2081 2011-04-21 19:36:27 <ArtForz> for that you need the prevout txes
2082 2011-04-21 19:36:29 <sipa> never thought about that
2083 2011-04-21 19:36:32 <UukGoblin> anyone interested in buying portal 2?
2084 2011-04-21 19:36:46 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: physical or digital version?
2085 2011-04-21 19:36:50 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: and why not on -otc?
2086 2011-04-21 19:36:51 <UukGoblin> cause there's a 2-pack deal on steam
2087 2011-04-21 19:36:54 <sipa> ArtForz: the caller would need to take care of that :)
2088 2011-04-21 19:37:04 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, order 1288 on -otc :-]
2089 2011-04-21 19:37:05 <ArtForz> though I *think* it's okay for a miner to ignore tx fees (effectively destroying them)
2090 2011-04-21 19:37:24 <sipa> there's been block with over 1BTC in fees
2091 2011-04-21 19:37:33 <sipa> would be kinda stupid to ignore
2092 2011-04-21 19:37:53 <ArtForz> well, that means you need a block DB at least
2093 2011-04-21 19:38:05 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rba238b680d65 spesmilo/main.py: Accept --bitcoind ... parameter to pass arguments to internal core bitcoind http://tinyurl.com/3k2fszk
2094 2011-04-21 19:38:11 <sipa> indeed
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2126 2011-04-21 20:15:33 <Lobster_Man> ;;bc,stats
2127 2011-04-21 20:15:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 119473 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 1486 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 20 hours, 31 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 96871.65644171
2128 2011-04-21 20:16:17 jroot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2130 2011-04-21 20:18:16 ArtForz has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2131 2011-04-21 20:18:42 <jaromil> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/177
2132 2011-04-21 20:19:36 sharperguy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2136 2011-04-21 20:23:35 ArtForz has joined
2137 2011-04-21 20:25:19 <sipa> $ ./configure
2138 2011-04-21 20:25:19 <sipa> configure: error: cannot find install-sh, install.sh, or shtool in "." "./.." "./../.."
2139 2011-04-21 20:25:23 <sipa> jgarzik: ^
2140 2011-04-21 20:25:34 <sipa> (i have no experience with autoconf/automake at all)
2141 2011-04-21 20:26:07 <jgarzik> sipa: is that addressed to jaromil?
2142 2011-04-21 20:26:34 <sipa> jgarzik: oops, yes
2143 2011-04-21 20:28:12 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rab3de6be6318 spesmilo/main.py: Accept --bitcoind ... parameter to pass arguments to internal core bitcoind http://tinyurl.com/44anzon
2144 2011-04-21 20:28:15 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rb43a3e40ed3c spesmilo/send.py: Tolerate bitcoin: URIs without an address http://tinyurl.com/4x4sgpt
2145 2011-04-21 20:31:57 <jaromil> sipa: autoreconf -i
2146 2011-04-21 20:31:57 sacarlson has joined
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2148 2011-04-21 20:34:40 <sipa> jaromil: g++: cryptopp/.libs/libcryptopp.a: No such file or directory
2149 2011-04-21 20:34:52 <sipa> after autoconf, configure, make
2150 2011-04-21 20:36:11 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2151 2011-04-21 20:36:11 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2152 2011-04-21 20:36:55 <jaromil> sipa: strange. i've seen that before and then make clean; make or git clean kind of fixed. BTW make V=1 shows the compilation flags
2153 2011-04-21 20:37:05 <jaromil> just: make V=1 to see more
2154 2011-04-21 20:37:19 <jaromil> i'm off to dinner, will read your comments
2155 2011-04-21 20:37:28 <topi`> i'm off to bed
2156 2011-04-21 20:37:31 eao has joined
2157 2011-04-21 20:37:44 <topi`> installed libboost, now i can compile bitcoin
2158 2011-04-21 20:37:55 <luke-jr> topi`: only if you happened to install static libs of it :P
2159 2011-04-21 20:38:00 <luke-jr> or edit the makefile.unix to be sane
2160 2011-04-21 20:38:05 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r5b7e766e16dd spesmilo/ (main.py send.py): When using an internal core, send URIs over IPC if possible (since we can't access internal bitcoind) http://tinyurl.com/3com4tc
2161 2011-04-21 20:38:16 ArtForz has joined
2162 2011-04-21 20:38:23 <luke-jr> ArtForz: hi foobar.
2163 2011-04-21 20:38:50 <ArtForz> grrr
2164 2011-04-21 20:38:51 danlucraft has joined
2165 2011-04-21 20:39:04 <ArtForz> stupid isp again
2166 2011-04-21 20:40:43 domtronvox has joined
2167 2011-04-21 20:43:20 <sipa> jaromil: $ ./configure --enable-gui
2168 2011-04-21 20:43:26 <sipa> ...
2169 2011-04-21 20:43:27 <sipa> checking which GUI is selected... checking if compiling with debugging symbols... no
2170 2011-04-21 20:43:30 <sipa> no
2171 2011-04-21 20:45:47 pogden has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2172 2011-04-21 20:46:07 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.252.19.245|Netsniper
2173 2011-04-21 20:46:16 pogden has joined
2174 2011-04-21 20:48:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r0405939575ed spesmilo/ (ipc.py main.py send.py): When using an internal core, send URIs over IPC if possible (since we can't access internal bitcoind) http://tinyurl.com/3wxdnel
2175 2011-04-21 20:49:31 Spenvo has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
2176 2011-04-21 20:50:34 <jaromil> sipa: --enable-gui=wx
2177 2011-04-21 20:50:51 * sipa is stupid
2178 2011-04-21 20:50:54 <jaromil> i mean: we can change anything in there
2179 2011-04-21 20:50:58 <luke-jr> jaromil: I think his point is that it doesn't work that way :P
2180 2011-04-21 20:51:02 <jaromil> no well its ok also to change it
2181 2011-04-21 20:51:09 BlueMatt has joined
2182 2011-04-21 20:51:19 <luke-jr> it shouldn't give gibberish even if wrong
2183 2011-04-21 20:51:23 <sipa> that's true
2184 2011-04-21 20:51:27 <jaromil> yes that's true
2185 2011-04-21 20:51:37 <sipa> and actually, it still does give some imperfect output
2186 2011-04-21 20:51:40 <luke-jr> IMO --enable-gui by itself should probably autodetect the user's installed GUIs, and choose as many as possible
2187 2011-04-21 20:51:43 <sipa> checking if compiling with debugging symbols... no
2188 2011-04-21 20:51:43 <sipa> no
2189 2011-04-21 20:51:43 <sipa> configure: creating ./config.status
2190 2011-04-21 20:52:05 <jaromil> luke-jr: autodetection is tricky, for instance now it would detect older wx
2191 2011-04-21 20:52:23 <jaromil> and most people here i guess compile the wx gui using wx 2.9 compiled by hand besides
2192 2011-04-21 20:52:36 <luke-jr> jaromil: surely there's a way to detect version
2193 2011-04-21 20:53:28 danlucraft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2196 2011-04-21 20:55:38 danlucraft has joined
2197 2011-04-21 20:56:30 <sipa> jaromil: the binary is always called bitcoind?
2198 2011-04-21 20:56:47 joepie91 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2199 2011-04-21 20:57:30 Godslastering has joined
2200 2011-04-21 20:58:05 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r36dad868605d spesmilo/build_win32_dist.py: rename main.exe from py2exe to spesmilo.exe so it looks nicer http://tinyurl.com/3oaeynv
2201 2011-04-21 20:58:36 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2202 2011-04-21 20:59:06 <jgarzik> jaromil: what would the 3 commits be?
2203 2011-04-21 20:59:09 joepie91 has joined
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2212 2011-04-21 21:18:29 <genjix> hey phantomcircuit
2213 2011-04-21 21:18:35 <phantomcircuit> hello
2214 2011-04-21 21:19:15 <jaromil> jgarzik: the steps you mention in your comment, for instance?
2215 2011-04-21 21:19:32 <genjix> phantomcircuit: see pm
2216 2011-04-21 21:19:40 <jaromil> sipa: yes, the binary has the same name and the code doesn't changes at all
2217 2011-04-21 21:19:54 xlogik has joined
2218 2011-04-21 21:20:43 <jaromil> jgarzik: BTW regarding how this patch was made, i haven't done a rebase in this case, since it failed with too many conflicts
2219 2011-04-21 21:21:05 <LobsterMan> mmm got a nice hashrate boost with the latest nvidia drivers
2220 2011-04-21 21:21:10 <jaromil> so FYI i found the best way to go just create a new branch, create a patch between two dirs, commit the patch in the new branch
2221 2011-04-21 21:21:15 <LobsterMan> from like 57 to 60mhash per gtx275
2222 2011-04-21 21:21:38 jav_ has joined
2223 2011-04-21 21:23:00 <jaromil> LobsterMan: u talking about 2.70.x drivers?
2224 2011-04-21 21:23:15 <LobsterMan> yeah
2225 2011-04-21 21:24:42 <LobsterMan> just installed 270.61
2226 2011-04-21 21:24:51 <phantomcircuit> lol
2227 2011-04-21 21:24:56 <phantomcircuit> glenn beck is fun
2228 2011-04-21 21:25:02 <BlueMatt> y
2229 2011-04-21 21:25:27 <jaromil> breaking bad rocks
2230 2011-04-21 21:26:55 Construct has left ()
2231 2011-04-21 21:27:50 <jav_> hey there.. I'm running v0.3.20.2 and when I executed './bitcoind getaccountaddress someaccount' it sometimes crashes the RPC interface.. the call hangs and afterwards every RPC call hangs .. is this a known problem?
2232 2011-04-21 21:27:58 <jgarzik> jerojust trying to understand... I mention two steps, and you mention three.
2233 2011-04-21 21:28:03 <jgarzik> jaromil: ^^
2234 2011-04-21 21:28:57 <jaromil> true
2235 2011-04-21 21:29:15 <jaromil> jgarzik: i understand your concerns. such a big movement is problematic
2236 2011-04-21 21:29:21 <jgarzik> jaromil: yes
2237 2011-04-21 21:29:35 <jaromil> i've had the same situation in other projects i'm maintaining, giving access to debian developers
2238 2011-04-21 21:30:09 <jaromil> so basically if we do want to move this direction i guess we should just go through all doubts one by one and adjust it
2239 2011-04-21 21:30:27 <jaromil> this presumes we want to do it. so i'd say first make a general feeling of where the thing is going
2240 2011-04-21 21:30:36 <jgarzik> jaromil: and each git commit needs to be buildable on its own, in order to keep 'git bisect' working. sometimes that means an intermediate step requires a bit of extra work, unfortunately. for example, if you do (1) move files, then (2) autotools, then commit #1 must update the old build system to work. then commit #2 undoes that work, switching to autotools.
2241 2011-04-21 21:30:51 <jgarzik> jaromil: it helps if you view each git commit like a step in an equation, or proof
2242 2011-04-21 21:31:15 <jgarzik> both sides are equal at all times, even though each step represents a transformation
2243 2011-04-21 21:31:39 <jaromil> jgarzik: i understand
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2249 2011-04-21 21:32:31 <jgarzik> jaromil: speaking generally, we want to merge autotool support, and eventually move towards some sort of libbitcoin
2250 2011-04-21 21:32:45 TD has joined
2251 2011-04-21 21:32:51 <jaromil> ok, that's matching my wishes
2252 2011-04-21 21:32:57 <jaromil> just to make sure we're not wasting time
2253 2011-04-21 21:32:59 <jgarzik> jaromil: so we're moving in the right direction :)
2254 2011-04-21 21:33:19 <jgarzik> jaromil: I'm more than happy if you take the autotools todo list item off my plate
2255 2011-04-21 21:33:25 * sipa thinks about splitting off a node.{cpp,h} and wallet.{cpp,h} from main.{cpp,h}
2256 2011-04-21 21:33:42 <jgarzik> sipa: ^^ that's reasonable
2257 2011-04-21 21:33:47 <jgarzik> two files per class is not reasonable
2258 2011-04-21 21:34:42 <BlueMatt> Would be really nice to move off of headers.h
2259 2011-04-21 21:34:58 <BlueMatt> onto something more standard
2260 2011-04-21 21:35:00 <sipa> yes indeed
2261 2011-04-21 21:35:24 <sipa> rpc.cpp shouldn't include openssl/ecdsa.h
2262 2011-04-21 21:35:42 zylche has joined
2263 2011-04-21 21:36:07 <jaromil> regarding headers.h yes. the autotools branch moves config.h into the scene
2264 2011-04-21 21:36:13 <jaromil> not the config.h that's already there
2265 2011-04-21 21:36:28 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2266 2011-04-21 21:36:30 <jaromil> that must become settings.h - since config.h is reserved for autotools generated header
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2271 2011-04-21 21:40:18 <jaromil> ook i shut up
2272 2011-04-21 21:40:20 <jaromil> :)
2273 2011-04-21 21:40:51 <phantomcircuit> oh god why is there an autotools branch
2274 2011-04-21 21:40:57 <phantomcircuit> autotools is ridiculously slow
2275 2011-04-21 21:41:35 <jaromil> phantomcircuit: do you need speed in compilation? i mostly aim at more targets
2276 2011-04-21 21:41:44 <jaromil> however yes. autotools is a PIA
2277 2011-04-21 21:41:46 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: because its better than the way its done now
2278 2011-04-21 21:42:02 <iera> somebody could write a nice cmake script :p
2279 2011-04-21 21:42:09 <phantomcircuit> i guess
2280 2011-04-21 21:42:22 <jaromil> cmake works good too and can coexist with autotools
2281 2011-04-21 21:42:29 <iera> right
2282 2011-04-21 21:42:42 <iera> if i had 2 weeks i would do it (:
2283 2011-04-21 21:42:43 <iera> :(
2284 2011-04-21 21:42:56 <phantomcircuit> lol anybody here effected by the aws outage?
2285 2011-04-21 21:43:09 <jaromil> 2 weeks? can be done faster
2286 2011-04-21 21:43:14 <jaromil> http://code.dyne.org/index.cgi?url=frei0r
2287 2011-04-21 21:43:29 <jaromil> this is another proj. i'm co-maintaining and we have autotools + cmake
2288 2011-04-21 21:43:47 <iera> well im no wizard
2289 2011-04-21 21:43:56 <iera> for me it would probably take 2 weeks
2290 2011-04-21 21:44:37 <jaromil> well... bitcoin is a small codebase.
2291 2011-04-21 21:44:39 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: who isnt
2292 2011-04-21 21:45:00 <iera> and i could only test on linux
2293 2011-04-21 21:45:07 <iera> hm yeah if im bored i will give it a try
2294 2011-04-21 21:45:19 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2295 2011-04-21 21:45:54 <jaromil> iera: i think cmake is a very good idea
2296 2011-04-21 21:46:03 <jaromil> it will surely facilitate building on windows
2297 2011-04-21 21:46:31 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, me
2298 2011-04-21 21:46:33 <phantomcircuit> lol
2299 2011-04-21 21:46:51 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2300 2011-04-21 21:47:11 <iera> jaromil: so i can count on your help? :D
2301 2011-04-21 21:47:21 <jgarzik> jaromil: no, you can name the config anything you like
2302 2011-04-21 21:47:29 <jaromil> iera: very little, since i'm not the cmake guy in that frei0r plot
2303 2011-04-21 21:47:32 <jgarzik> jaromil: you _have_ reviewed my autotools branch, right?
2304 2011-04-21 21:47:35 <iera> ah too bad
2305 2011-04-21 21:47:46 <jaromil> jgarzik: yes but not in that part
2306 2011-04-21 21:48:06 <jgarzik> jaromil: AC_CONFIG_HEADERS([autotools-config.h])
2307 2011-04-21 21:48:11 <jaromil> now you mention yes its true
2308 2011-04-21 21:48:12 <jgarzik> or whatever you want to call it
2309 2011-04-21 21:48:25 <jgarzik> jaromil: it is recommended to rename it from something generic and easily conflicting
2310 2011-04-21 21:48:39 <jgarzik> jaromil: if autotools wants to stomp something... you stomp right back
2311 2011-04-21 21:48:40 <jaromil> nice
2312 2011-04-21 21:49:03 <jgarzik> don't take that from a measly little set of script-generating scripts
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2321 2011-04-21 21:58:47 <gjs278> phantomcircuit I am
2322 2011-04-21 21:58:52 <gjs278> the instance had
2323 2011-04-21 21:58:56 <gjs278> 378 load
2324 2011-04-21 21:59:00 RBecker has joined
2325 2011-04-21 21:59:05 <gjs278> can't kill or stop anything
2326 2011-04-21 21:59:32 <phantomcircuit> that's terrible
2327 2011-04-21 21:59:36 <phantomcircuit> also
2328 2011-04-21 21:59:40 <phantomcircuit> cloud sucks
2329 2011-04-21 21:59:51 <phantomcircuit> my moms work was hit my this they had a bunch of citrix stuff on it
2330 2011-04-21 22:00:02 <gjs278> I rebooted the instance thinking that would help but now I can't ssh to it until they really fix it
2331 2011-04-21 22:00:07 <phantomcircuit> so far downtime has cost them 100k today in her office alone
2332 2011-04-21 22:03:07 <JFK911> what amazon?
2333 2011-04-21 22:03:51 <BlueMatt> JFK911: aws == amazon web services ie their hosting
2334 2011-04-21 22:04:12 darrob has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2335 2011-04-21 22:04:26 <phantomcircuit> it's actually pretty funny
2336 2011-04-21 22:04:38 <phantomcircuit> their secretaries spend like 90% of their time in ms word
2337 2011-04-21 22:04:49 <phantomcircuit> which is now on citrix in a dc on the east coast
2338 2011-04-21 22:04:53 lzsaver has joined
2339 2011-04-21 22:04:58 <phantomcircuit> genius
2340 2011-04-21 22:05:04 <JFK911> wow i had no idea people were actually risking stuff in this cloud crap
2341 2011-04-21 22:05:10 <iera> cloud is the solution for EVERYTHING, so shut up :p
2342 2011-04-21 22:05:20 <JFK911> i thought it was for just blogs and websites
2343 2011-04-21 22:05:41 dirtyfil1hy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2344 2011-04-21 22:05:44 <ersi> Just put the cloud into another cloud
2345 2011-04-21 22:05:46 <ersi> problem solved.
2346 2011-04-21 22:05:48 <BlueMatt> JFK911: its a buzzword ideal for board-level decisions where they have no idea what they are talking about ;)
2347 2011-04-21 22:05:54 <iera> we have to go deeper
2348 2011-04-21 22:06:09 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2349 2011-04-21 22:06:11 <ersi> Just put the cloud into another cloud, and put that into another cloud!
2350 2011-04-21 22:06:17 <JFK911> so what caused the failure
2351 2011-04-21 22:06:23 dirtyfilthy has joined
2352 2011-04-21 22:06:36 phantomcircuit has joined
2353 2011-04-21 22:06:41 <ersi> JFK911: Recursion, they were migrating their cloud into Microsoft Azure
2354 2011-04-21 22:06:47 <jaromil> cloud sucks for sure
2355 2011-04-21 22:06:47 <JFK911> lol
2356 2011-04-21 22:06:54 <JFK911> i'll go look in the register
2357 2011-04-21 22:06:56 <jaromil> that's why bitcoin is cool. once more: local storage
2358 2011-04-21 22:07:01 <BlueMatt> ersi: at the same time that Microsoft Azure was migrating their cloud into AWS
2359 2011-04-21 22:07:06 <ersi> Yepp
2360 2011-04-21 22:07:19 <ersi> And they had already migrated into RackSpace Cloud
2361 2011-04-21 22:07:27 <phantomcircuit> genjix, i forgot one thing
2362 2011-04-21 22:07:30 <iera> hahah
2363 2011-04-21 22:07:30 <ersi> SpaceCloud Rack
2364 2011-04-21 22:07:30 <phantomcircuit> genjix, hacked the gibson
2365 2011-04-21 22:07:36 <ArtForz> excess precipiation
2366 2011-04-21 22:07:47 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: really? fail
2367 2011-04-21 22:07:47 <ArtForz> *precipitation
2368 2011-04-21 22:08:31 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol yeah apparently a powerline went down and caused a chain reaction
2369 2011-04-21 22:08:44 <phantomcircuit> apparently a coal power plant's controls were powered by another power plants power
2370 2011-04-21 22:08:48 <phantomcircuit> makes sense right?
2371 2011-04-21 22:08:52 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: powerline down + what happened to their backups
2372 2011-04-21 22:08:53 <ersi> which were in a cloud
2373 2011-04-21 22:08:58 <iera> phantomcircuit: thats just cloud power
2374 2011-04-21 22:09:05 <ArtForz> cascading failure ftw
2375 2011-04-21 22:09:08 darrob has joined
2376 2011-04-21 22:09:08 <ersi> Smoking hot electricity
2377 2011-04-21 22:09:17 <iera> phantomcircuit: they had the controls on the amazon cloud lol
2378 2011-04-21 22:09:21 * ersi chants "Cloud cloud cloud"
2379 2011-04-21 22:09:22 <BlueMatt> the controls for the power were controlled by AWS which went down so it cant come back up
2380 2011-04-21 22:09:26 <iera> hah
2381 2011-04-21 22:09:31 <phantomcircuit> lololol
2382 2011-04-21 22:09:35 <phantomcircuit> so many cloud jokes
2383 2011-04-21 22:09:37 <phantomcircuit> so little time
2384 2011-04-21 22:09:41 <ersi> Head up in the clouds
2385 2011-04-21 22:09:42 <ersi> ;D
2386 2011-04-21 22:10:03 <BlueMatt> so easy to make fun of the cloud
2387 2011-04-21 22:10:10 <ersi> hueg hitbox
2388 2011-04-21 22:10:21 <ersi> But it's like beating a dead horse
2389 2011-04-21 22:10:31 <jaromil> you know what's not so much fun?
2390 2011-04-21 22:10:37 <BlueMatt> arg another 10 minutes before portal 2 finishes downloading
2391 2011-04-21 22:10:42 <jaromil> that public money in europe is getting heavily invested in clouds
2392 2011-04-21 22:10:46 <ersi> jaromil: Cloudy weather?
2393 2011-04-21 22:10:50 <jaromil> yea
2394 2011-04-21 22:10:54 <jaromil> something like that
2395 2011-04-21 22:11:14 <phantomcircuit> jaromil, yeah bureaucracy has saved us from that mostly in the us
2396 2011-04-21 22:11:15 <BlueMatt> germany already has enough, why would I want more?
2397 2011-04-21 22:11:23 <jaromil> all those suits are excited by the cloud thing and are talking about it like the next hot thing to feed our tax money into
2398 2011-04-21 22:11:31 <phantomcircuit> sorry you cant put this on the cloud because it doesn't comply with all 10k pages of regulations
2399 2011-04-21 22:11:37 <BlueMatt> jaromil: yep its a great buzzword
2400 2011-04-21 22:11:47 <phantomcircuit> more importantly
2401 2011-04-21 22:11:48 <phantomcircuit> http://www.lilchuckeeonline.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=323
2402 2011-04-21 22:11:50 <phantomcircuit> lololol
2403 2011-04-21 22:11:53 <phantomcircuit> best rapper ever
2404 2011-04-21 22:13:05 <iera> phantomcircuit: do you have an url about the outag?e
2405 2011-04-21 22:13:17 <phantomcircuit> it's on /.
2406 2011-04-21 22:13:26 <iera> ah
2407 2011-04-21 22:13:52 <BlueMatt> who runs bitcoin.org, I can never remember...
2408 2011-04-21 22:14:55 <sipa> sirius?
2409 2011-04-21 22:15:23 <ersi> y so serious?
2410 2011-04-21 22:16:02 <BlueMatt> sirius: can we get bitcoin: links allowed in smf?
2411 2011-04-21 22:16:49 <BlueMatt> and why is sirius always on irc but never responds
2412 2011-04-21 22:17:24 xlogik has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2414 2011-04-21 22:18:42 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2415 2011-04-21 22:18:57 <ArtForz> guess he's a sirius idler?
2416 2011-04-21 22:19:47 <BlueMatt> its pun night tonight on #bitcoin-dev
2417 2011-04-21 22:20:05 <ArtForz> yup
2418 2011-04-21 22:20:07 <phantomcircuit> ArtForz, BRA FUCKING VO
2419 2011-04-21 22:20:34 <sipa> you're not taking him siriusly
2420 2011-04-21 22:23:33 <ArtForz> bad pun thursday is always fun
2421 2011-04-21 22:24:37 <BlueMatt> market-moving monday, bad-pun thurday, what else do we have?
2422 2011-04-21 22:24:57 <ArtForz> heavy metal pole day?
2423 2011-04-21 22:25:50 <BlueMatt> yay portal 2 is done downloading...be back in a couple days
2424 2011-04-21 22:27:40 * sipa draws a yellow and a blue circle on the ground
2425 2011-04-21 22:29:39 toffoo has joined
2426 2011-04-21 22:33:13 domtronvox has joined
2427 2011-04-21 22:34:05 <domtronvox> is this the right channel to get help in installing a gpu miner?
2428 2011-04-21 22:34:59 <ersi> There's also #bitcoin-mining which might be more relevant, but ymmv
2429 2011-04-21 22:36:09 <phantomcircuit> genjix, rofl i just found my passport
2430 2011-04-21 22:36:17 toffoo has quit ()
2431 2011-04-21 22:36:17 <phantomcircuit> it's the most ridiculous patriotic thing ever
2432 2011-04-21 22:36:26 <phantomcircuit> i can see them designing it
2433 2011-04-21 22:36:37 <phantomcircuit> "CAN WE GET SOME MORE EAGLES AND FLAGS ON THIS!!??!?!"
2434 2011-04-21 22:37:08 <ArtForz> yeah, but really lacks cowbell
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2440 2011-04-21 22:41:29 <jaromil> sipa: did you had that libcryptopp.a error blocking your build, or was it solved?
2441 2011-04-21 22:41:55 <jaromil> sipa: in brief, can you resume the problems you've met trying pull req 177?
2442 2011-04-21 22:42:31 <jaromil> i just managed to revert the config.h following jgarzik's suggestions and would like to note down anything else is there before repacking
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2447 2011-04-21 22:43:34 <domtronvox> I'm following this: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=3359.0 : guide to install poclbm. I have a radion HD 4800 and am on ubuntu. I'm having two problems(so far). the first problem is when I run sudo aticonfig --initial I get "Found fglrx... Unable to find any supported Screen sections", but when I run fglrxinfo I get the card's info. Is the aticonfig --initial not needed
2448 2011-04-21 22:47:24 <sipa> jaromil: after a make clean it was fixed
2449 2011-04-21 22:47:37 <sipa> jaromil: though it was just a pristine git clone
2450 2011-04-21 22:47:37 <jaromil> sipa: exactly what happened to me too about that error
2451 2011-04-21 22:47:48 <jaromil> yea. strange.
2452 2011-04-21 22:47:51 <sipa> i suspect a non-existing directory or something like that
2453 2011-04-21 22:48:34 Timon has joined
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2455 2011-04-21 22:49:35 <midnightmagic> big buy on mtgox..
2456 2011-04-21 22:49:52 <jaromil> i'm goin to try a make distcheck and see what happens
2457 2011-04-21 22:49:55 <Timon> Hi! I need help regarding lowering memclock, anyone here is available and wanna help?
2458 2011-04-21 22:51:29 <Timon> is there a way to lower memclock of HD6970 in windows? (tried with MSI Afterburner, didn't work)
2459 2011-04-21 22:51:35 <jaromil> midnightmagic: you mean the 1k ?
2460 2011-04-21 22:51:48 <jaromil> funny yesterday same buy almost at the same time
2461 2011-04-21 22:52:58 <midnightmagic> "big" defined as "relatively big" and indiscriminate, and non-dark.
2462 2011-04-21 22:54:00 Timon has quit ()
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2464 2011-04-21 22:54:41 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
2465 2011-04-21 22:54:42 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.2,"low":1.14,"vol":38721,"buy":1.191,"sell":1.2,"last":1.2}}
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2469 2011-04-21 23:00:57 eternal1 has joined
2470 2011-04-21 23:05:45 DukeOfURL has joined
2471 2011-04-21 23:07:37 <jaromil> k gnite, bbl
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2475 2011-04-21 23:17:34 LobsterMan has joined
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2477 2011-04-21 23:21:20 <mizerydearia> AMAZINGNESS http://media.witcoin.com/p/1268/Video-The-Bitcoin-Show-001-Platos-BitcoinRoadTrip
2478 2011-04-21 23:33:09 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix exper * r6208e5..7d7205 intersango/ (11 files in 4 dirs): (10 commits) http://tinyurl.com/3dynz2e
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2487 2011-04-21 23:44:20 <xxxxxxx> i was asking in the other channel if theres a plan to handle tx spam
2488 2011-04-21 23:44:31 <tcatm> xxxxxxx: fees
2489 2011-04-21 23:44:46 <xxxxxxx> tcatm, and what about all the unprocessed 0 fee transactions
2490 2011-04-21 23:44:52 <iera> fees are currently inplace for sub 0.01 transactions
2491 2011-04-21 23:44:53 <xxxxxxx> wont thoes pile up on all the clients?
2492 2011-04-21 23:44:56 <tcatm> yep
2493 2011-04-21 23:45:06 <tcatm> eventually we could purge them from the mempool
2494 2011-04-21 23:45:16 <xxxxxxx> tcatm, so does the client need to be updated fo rthat ?
2495 2011-04-21 23:45:23 <phantomcircuit> mizerydearia, rofl it took him a week to go from hartford to nyc?
2496 2011-04-21 23:45:34 <tcatm> xxxxxxx: could be part of one of the next releases
2497 2011-04-21 23:45:40 <xxxxxxx> ic, cool
2498 2011-04-21 23:45:45 <mizerydearia> phantomcircuit, That's quite an accomplishment.
2499 2011-04-21 23:45:50 <tcatm> it's not a big problem anyway
2500 2011-04-21 23:45:52 <xxxxxxx> was just curious
2501 2011-04-21 23:46:21 <xxxxxxx> cuz seems like an easy way to degrade the network if someone wanted to attack it
2502 2011-04-21 23:46:23 <mizerydearia> phantomcircuit, A year from now it may be a LOT easier to pay travelling expenses in bitcoin
2503 2011-04-21 23:47:33 <tcatm> we already had > 1000 unconfirmed tx in mempool and it didn't harm the network much. now we even have limitfreetx so nodes can reject those tx
2504 2011-04-21 23:47:55 <phantomcircuit> lol @ super gay pink shirt
2505 2011-04-21 23:47:55 <xxxxxxx> well yea, but i woldnt say 1000 is a very dedicated spammer :P
2506 2011-04-21 23:48:37 <phantomcircuit> well
2507 2011-04-21 23:48:50 <phantomcircuit> yeah that's only 10BTC
2508 2011-04-21 23:49:19 <xxxxxxx> iera, what does "fees are currentlt in place for" mean? that the cleints automatically slap a fee on those txs?
2509 2011-04-21 23:49:58 <iera> xxxxxxx: right, <0.01 transaction will have a fee of 0.01, so it will be eaten up
2510 2011-04-21 23:50:05 <xxxxxxx> ah gotcha
2511 2011-04-21 23:50:09 <gjs278> it automatically puts a fee onto it?
2512 2011-04-21 23:50:29 <dotblank> how are the fees determined?
2513 2011-04-21 23:50:34 <iera> i was told so, didnt look at the code though :p
2514 2011-04-21 23:50:44 <xxxxxxx> i saw that theyre removing the 2 dec likmit in the nxt release
2515 2011-04-21 23:50:48 <iera> i wont reply further so people who really know can respond :p
2516 2011-04-21 23:50:51 <xxxxxxx> that doesnt make sense if theyre requring a 0.01 fee
2517 2011-04-21 23:51:04 <iera> the limit is the fee i think
2518 2011-04-21 23:51:34 <dotblank> dor example say I gto some btc from the bitcoin faucet.. is it really sending me 0.06 BTC but 0.01 is in transaction?
2519 2011-04-21 23:51:47 <xxxxxxx> well interesting, seems like "no fees" cant be part of bitcoins marekting anymore, i gues itll just have to be super cheap fees
2520 2011-04-21 23:52:06 <iera> dotblank: no, 0.06 has no fee but 0.009999 has
2521 2011-04-21 23:52:11 <xxxxxxx> dotblank, i think it sends 0.05 to you and advs a 0.01 fee
2522 2011-04-21 23:52:22 <xxxxxxx> so he spends 0.06 and u get 0.05 and the miner that finds the solution gets 0.01
2523 2011-04-21 23:52:36 <tcatm> xxxxxxx: sure it makes sense. you can send small fractions as long as all outputs are > 0.01 BTC
2524 2011-04-21 23:52:36 <iera> no, only for sub-0.01 transactions
2525 2011-04-21 23:52:57 <dotblank> oh ok.. so any transaction less then 0.01 BTC will have a cost of 0.01 BTV for transaction
2526 2011-04-21 23:53:05 <dotblank> bct*
2527 2011-04-21 23:53:06 <xxxxxxx> tcatm, ah yea duh, good pt
2528 2011-04-21 23:53:13 <xxxxxxx> so you can send 100.23932
2529 2011-04-21 23:53:14 <dotblank> btc.. ush
2530 2011-04-21 23:53:18 <iera> dotblank: right
2531 2011-04-21 23:53:19 <xxxxxxx> sorrry
2532 2011-04-21 23:53:43 <dotblank> xxxxxxx, I don't know if the cleint supports that many decimal places right now
2533 2011-04-21 23:53:54 <xxxxxxx> dotblank, it said next release it will
2534 2011-04-21 23:53:55 <gjs278> how does this .01 fee automatically get tacked on
2535 2011-04-21 23:53:58 <gjs278> is it through the client
2536 2011-04-21 23:54:03 <xxxxxxx> i was thinking it was to support sub 0.01 txs, but i was thinking wrong
2537 2011-04-21 23:54:10 <dotblank> gjs278, it does when a transaction is less then 0.01 BTC
2538 2011-04-21 23:54:15 <gjs278> like if I sent .001 right now, how did it take .01 from me
2539 2011-04-21 23:54:27 <dotblank> gjs278, it will just eat all of it
2540 2011-04-21 23:54:31 <gjs278> how
2541 2011-04-21 23:54:35 <gjs278> who told it to take .01
2542 2011-04-21 23:54:35 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, yea its the cleint
2543 2011-04-21 23:54:41 <xxxxxxx> u "give" away the tx fee
2544 2011-04-21 23:54:46 <gjs278> so then I make a client that doesn't automatically tack on .01
2545 2011-04-21 23:54:46 <xxxxxxx> its not taken from u
2546 2011-04-21 23:54:50 <gjs278> and I can send out .001?
2547 2011-04-21 23:55:02 <dotblank> I think the miners could reject/ignore it
2548 2011-04-21 23:55:06 <xxxxxxx> yea but eventually miners wont process TXs for ppl with fees under 0.01
2549 2011-04-21 23:55:10 <gjs278> so I'd still be able to flood the network
2550 2011-04-21 23:55:27 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, we just covered that, the cleints will eventually drop old TXs
2551 2011-04-21 23:55:43 <gjs278> if one guy verifies it, doesn't it become part of the blockchain
2552 2011-04-21 23:56:02 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, hrm good pt
2553 2011-04-21 23:56:04 <dotblank> this brings up that collusion problem... as bitcoins get more popular and the technical demands for running a ndoe increases then they would be able to affect mroe policy
2554 2011-04-21 23:56:29 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, if u flood the network AND verify your own flood
2555 2011-04-21 23:57:04 <dotblank> what costs more work? verifying the tx or sending the bits
2556 2011-04-21 23:57:10 <xxxxxxx> i guess you'd have to add enforcement in clients of a minimum possible value of a tx
2557 2011-04-21 23:57:17 <jgarzik> dotblank: well, miners cannot just start creating invalid blocks, without big parts of the network accepting them. nodes simply won't relay invalid blocks, such as e.g. paying yourself 100 rather than 50 BTC.
2558 2011-04-21 23:57:20 <xxxxxxx> verifying the tx
2559 2011-04-21 23:57:22 <dotblank> xxxxxxx, but the cleint is open source
2560 2011-04-21 23:57:54 <gjs278> so sending .001 with no fee is going to be considered an invalid block then?
2561 2011-04-21 23:58:00 <xxxxxxx> dotblank, yea but u can tell ppl if u dont use one of the right cleints ur at risk of beign flooded with spam
2562 2011-04-21 23:58:24 lulzplzkthx has quit (Quit: leaving)
2563 2011-04-21 23:58:26 <gjs278> I mean, eventually .001 might have real value behind it
2564 2011-04-21 23:58:29 lulzplzkthx has joined
2565 2011-04-21 23:58:30 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, it kkinda seems like thats the only way to prevent it
2566 2011-04-21 23:58:35 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, probly a moving target
2567 2011-04-21 23:58:38 <dotblank> jgarzik, right but what would happen is that as the nodes become more centralized they change to thier block system it would do harm to the existing BTC network.. unless the transaction fees are worth the cost
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2569 2011-04-21 23:58:39 <gjs278> or .01 could have a value of a dollar
2570 2011-04-21 23:58:57 <xxxxxxx> gjs278, based on the current market value of a bcn
2571 2011-04-21 23:59:09 <dotblank> so the performance becomes degraded unless you move over