1 2011-04-24 00:00:24 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2 2011-04-24 00:00:35 <vorbs> and it may be back to a $1 amazing...
3 2011-04-24 00:00:35 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Bye)
4 2011-04-24 00:01:14 <amazing123> or may go to 5
5 2011-04-24 00:01:40 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
6 2011-04-24 00:01:43 <devrandom_> BlueMatt - how are you building the windows binaries?
7 2011-04-24 00:02:15 <vorbs> it very well could... but what is the 'real' value of BTC?
8 2011-04-24 00:02:23 <BlueMatt> devrandom_: mingw?
9 2011-04-24 00:02:28 <BlueMatt> on win server 2003
10 2011-04-24 00:02:35 <devrandom_> gotcha, thanks
11 2011-04-24 00:02:39 <netxshare> cli is much better
12 2011-04-24 00:02:45 <BlueMatt> though they arent working on win7 (some very minor issues)
13 2011-04-24 00:02:50 <johnlockwood> gah, can't fund a Mt. Gox account until banking hours
14 2011-04-24 00:02:53 <BlueMatt> I believe its best to go for winxp
15 2011-04-24 00:03:02 pogden has joined
16 2011-04-24 00:03:06 <amazing123> johnlockwood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-V8EzyNtk0
17 2011-04-24 00:03:35 <amazing123> real man build win binaries on linux
18 2011-04-24 00:03:43 <BlueMatt> devrandom_: though Im trying to do some work in linux-mingw right now, Ill tell you if it works
19 2011-04-24 00:04:03 <luke-jr> amazing123: it's amazing how difficult that is for Python code :/
20 2011-04-24 00:04:13 <devrandom_> cool, thanks
21 2011-04-24 00:04:26 <devrandom_> it would be great if that works
22 2011-04-24 00:05:38 <amazing123> did americans just delegalized linux
23 2011-04-24 00:05:49 <lulzplzkthx> lol what amazing123 ?
24 2011-04-24 00:05:52 <lulzplzkthx> you smokin crack?
25 2011-04-24 00:05:56 <amazing123> texas court agrees to patent claim on kernel
26 2011-04-24 00:06:01 <BlueMatt> well Im doing it in fedora right now because its easier to work with mingw that way, but Id assume if it works you could do the same stuff you do with ubuntu
27 2011-04-24 00:06:04 <luke-jr> amazing123: what?
28 2011-04-24 00:06:10 <amazing123> I dont, but us judgest apparently do
29 2011-04-24 00:06:13 <B0g4r7> 9800gt was a good card...in 2009link.
30 2011-04-24 00:06:14 <luke-jr> amazing123: what?
31 2011-04-24 00:06:16 <B0g4r7> er...
32 2011-04-24 00:06:18 <B0g4r7> link plz
33 2011-04-24 00:06:26 <luke-jr> B0g4r7: nvidia was never good cards
34 2011-04-24 00:06:28 <devrandom_> BlueMatt - most likely
35 2011-04-24 00:06:32 <lulzplzkthx> http://topnews.net.nz/content/214135-google-s-defeat-linux-patent-lawsuit-may-have-major-implications
36 2011-04-24 00:06:58 <lulzplzkthx> Holy shit...
37 2011-04-24 00:07:14 gdoteof_home has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
38 2011-04-24 00:07:31 theorb has joined
39 2011-04-24 00:07:42 <[Tycho]> 6 confirmations passed, but my mtgox balance is not increased...
40 2011-04-24 00:07:50 <B0g4r7> That article seems quite scant on the details.
41 2011-04-24 00:08:22 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
42 2011-04-24 00:08:27 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
43 2011-04-24 00:10:33 <lulzplzkthx> wow... my transactions from 4 hours ago still have 0 confirmations
44 2011-04-24 00:10:36 <lulzplzkthx> one outgoing, two incoming
45 2011-04-24 00:10:48 <B0g4r7> http://thepriorart.typepad.com/the_prior_art/2009/06/pubpat-and-patent-troll-make-strange-bedfellows.html
46 2011-04-24 00:11:20 <amazing123> luke-jr: http://slashdot.org/story/11/04/21/2140249/Google-Loses-Bedrock-Suit-All-Linux-May-Infringe
47 2011-04-24 00:11:43 <netxshare> lulzplzkthx: that's crazy
48 2011-04-24 00:12:01 <amazing123> lulzplzkthx: that will teach you to use txfee ;)
49 2011-04-24 00:13:18 Savi has joined
50 2011-04-24 00:13:27 <slueth> god damn patent trolls!
51 2011-04-24 00:13:37 <slueth> go back under ur bridges..
52 2011-04-24 00:15:09 <lulzplzkthx> amazing123: xD
53 2011-04-24 00:15:17 <lulzplzkthx> i didn't mean to..
54 2011-04-24 00:15:36 <lulzplzkthx> i just had it set to 0.00 because i was using bitcoin darts && btcbubble whcih doesn't care about confirmations
55 2011-04-24 00:15:36 <noagendamarket> oracle sucks
56 2011-04-24 00:15:39 <lulzplzkthx> afaik
57 2011-04-24 00:15:40 <dust1> paid 1.9 btc in fees on a 5k btc transaction
58 2011-04-24 00:15:52 <B0g4r7> loloracle
59 2011-04-24 00:16:26 <lulzplzkthx> ffs, bitcoin is pissing me off... it's been 4 hours.
60 2011-04-24 00:16:31 <jgarzik> dust1: do you run with paytxfee=0.01 ?
61 2011-04-24 00:16:41 <dust1> i set it to .1
62 2011-04-24 00:16:46 <dust1> to speed it up
63 2011-04-24 00:16:51 <B0g4r7> I recently collected 2.22 BTC in tx fees in a single block. Maybe that was yours.
64 2011-04-24 00:17:01 <dust1> is is paytxfee a multiplier?
65 2011-04-24 00:17:03 <jgarzik> dust1: anything beyond 0.01 or 0.02 is a bit of overkill
66 2011-04-24 00:17:11 <ArtForz> yes
67 2011-04-24 00:17:12 <jgarzik> dust1: -paytxfee is per kilobyte
68 2011-04-24 00:17:13 <dust1> oh
69 2011-04-24 00:17:17 <dust1> i though it was total
70 2011-04-24 00:17:20 <ArtForz> paytxfee is per kB of trasnaction
71 2011-04-24 00:17:23 <lulzplzkthx> xD
72 2011-04-24 00:17:38 <lulzplzkthx> dust1: someone loves you :)
73 2011-04-24 00:17:51 <B0g4r7> Me love you long time.
74 2011-04-24 00:17:55 <lulzplzkthx> FUCK YOU
75 2011-04-24 00:18:00 <lulzplzkthx> that song gets stuck in my head like every day omg >_<
76 2011-04-24 00:18:11 <lulzplzkthx> and it doesn't come out for like a week
77 2011-04-24 00:18:17 * lulzplzkthx shoots himself to make the song stop.
78 2011-04-24 00:18:27 <B0g4r7> heh, I don't know the song.
79 2011-04-24 00:19:14 Kiba has joined
80 2011-04-24 00:19:34 <lulzplzkthx> B0g4r7: ???
81 2011-04-24 00:19:50 <B0g4r7> I just know that phrase as a line from Full Metal Jacket.
82 2011-04-24 00:20:14 llama has quit (Quit: llama)
83 2011-04-24 00:20:50 <lulzplzkthx> B0g4r7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6VTj7LhCtE
84 2011-04-24 00:20:55 <lulzplzkthx> i think.
85 2011-04-24 00:21:05 <lulzplzkthx> yup.
86 2011-04-24 00:24:55 <gjs278> omg
87 2011-04-24 00:24:58 <gjs278> so lucky I got 1.9
88 2011-04-24 00:25:00 <gjs278> down to 1.75 now
89 2011-04-24 00:25:53 <lulzplzkthx> xD
90 2011-04-24 00:25:59 <B0g4r7> I made my sale yesterday at 1.42.
91 2011-04-24 00:26:04 <B0g4r7> Still pretty good IMO.
92 2011-04-24 00:28:02 <[Tycho]> Can someone tell me - when mtgox balance is updated ? More than 10 confirmations passed already, but no funds...
93 2011-04-24 00:28:48 guest3232 has joined
94 2011-04-24 00:29:28 skyewm has joined
95 2011-04-24 00:29:53 heyhi has joined
96 2011-04-24 00:29:58 <heyhi> hey
97 2011-04-24 00:30:36 <heyhi> im pretty new to this bitcoin thing, so after reading a littlebit in the wiki i still have a question left
98 2011-04-24 00:30:53 <B0g4r7> hi hey
99 2011-04-24 00:30:55 <pirrr> 1.95 @ mtgox... wow
100 2011-04-24 00:31:06 <pirrr> (not now, earlier)
101 2011-04-24 00:31:14 <purpleposeidon> 1.5+ USD for a bitcoin? Hot damn
102 2011-04-24 00:31:15 <heyhi> as far as i understood i "mine" bitcoins which means i calculate some equations or something
103 2011-04-24 00:31:24 <heyhi> what are those euqations for ?
104 2011-04-24 00:31:40 <heyhi> for the bitcoin system ? or for scientific research ?
105 2011-04-24 00:31:53 <[Tycho]> heyhi, they are useless.
106 2011-04-24 00:31:58 <jgarzik> heyhi: for nothing
107 2011-04-24 00:31:59 <B0g4r7> They're a part of the system design.
108 2011-04-24 00:32:19 <heyhi> ah ok .. couldnt all the power been used ?
109 2011-04-24 00:32:28 <B0g4r7> indeed
110 2011-04-24 00:32:32 <[Tycho]> No.
111 2011-04-24 00:32:57 <gjs278> bitcoin is a grassroots fund started by comed
112 2011-04-24 00:33:08 <gjs278> they've seen record profits since its introduction
113 2011-04-24 00:33:25 <heyhi> comed ?
114 2011-04-24 00:33:43 <heyhi> the devs ? or some company behind them ?
115 2011-04-24 00:33:45 <gjs278> the electric company
116 2011-04-24 00:33:57 <B0g4r7> lol
117 2011-04-24 00:34:01 kisom_dev has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
118 2011-04-24 00:34:04 <heyhi> i am from europe :) i guess its a usa company ?
119 2011-04-24 00:34:08 <B0g4r7> AMD has a hand in it too I hear.
120 2011-04-24 00:34:13 <gjs278> yeah, it's the main provider of electricity in us
121 2011-04-24 00:34:18 <heyhi> ahh
122 2011-04-24 00:34:25 <noagendamarket> lawl
123 2011-04-24 00:34:26 <gjs278> if amd had their hand in it, I'd actually be able to find a 5970 in stock somewhere
124 2011-04-24 00:34:34 <B0g4r7> And Antec and COrsair.
125 2011-04-24 00:34:49 <B0g4r7> Artificial scarcity.
126 2011-04-24 00:34:54 <B0g4r7> It's worked well for Nintendo.
127 2011-04-24 00:34:55 <heyhi> i thought its p2p oriented self-scaling system ?
128 2011-04-24 00:34:56 <B0g4r7> And De Beers.
129 2011-04-24 00:35:06 <gjs278> well the only issue is they don't have any plans to restock lol
130 2011-04-24 00:35:15 <gjs278> they just release the 69 series which hashes less
131 2011-04-24 00:35:18 <heyhi> i am not sure youre fooling me here :D
132 2011-04-24 00:35:46 heyhi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
133 2011-04-24 00:36:11 _Netsniper_ has joined
134 2011-04-24 00:36:14 <gjs278> if someone hashes a sha256 hash that is equal to itself when sha256'd again, they should win the rest of the 21 million pot
135 2011-04-24 00:36:16 <gjs278> it's only fair
136 2011-04-24 00:36:28 <B0g4r7> lol
137 2011-04-24 00:36:33 <B0g4r7> That would be a beautiful thing.
138 2011-04-24 00:37:02 <purpleposeidon> you, of course, do not already have such a string on hand.
139 2011-04-24 00:37:55 <luke-jr> gjs278: that would be awesome
140 2011-04-24 00:38:01 <B0g4r7> I tried to do some calculating to see if I could use my mining hardware to find collisions by brute force in sha1.
141 2011-04-24 00:38:16 <gjs278> there's a project that's actively trying to find the md5 hash that does that
142 2011-04-24 00:38:25 <luke-jr> silly people
143 2011-04-24 00:38:30 <luke-jr> they're assuming such a thing exists
144 2011-04-24 00:38:41 <B0g4r7> I couldn't see a way to accomplish it in less than bajillions of years.
145 2011-04-24 00:38:50 <B0g4r7> With my present hardware.
146 2011-04-24 00:38:54 <pirrr> http://www.mscs.dal.ca/~selinger/md5collision/
147 2011-04-24 00:38:57 <luke-jr> B0g4r7: need quantum computer
148 2011-04-24 00:39:00 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-252-45-158.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
149 2011-04-24 00:39:10 <B0g4r7> ...even then I dunno.
150 2011-04-24 00:39:27 fimp has quit (Quit: Leaving)
151 2011-04-24 00:39:51 <B0g4r7> I think QPUs are only able to "shortcut" one extra dimension...to reduce the effective problemspace to the square root of it's initial complexity...or something like that.
152 2011-04-24 00:39:58 <gjs278> pirrr that link is crazy
153 2011-04-24 00:40:33 subpar has quit (Quit: Leaving)
154 2011-04-24 00:40:37 skeledrew has joined
155 2011-04-24 00:40:55 <B0g4r7> ...Maybe if you built a quantum computer inside a quantum computer...
156 2011-04-24 00:41:00 <B0g4r7> But that's just crazy.
157 2011-04-24 00:41:15 <pirrr> B0g4r7: inception?
158 2011-04-24 00:41:28 <B0g4r7> Haz not seen.
159 2011-04-24 00:41:57 <lianj> insheeption.
160 2011-04-24 00:42:33 <B0g4r7> Sup dawg. I herd u liek probabilities...
161 2011-04-24 00:42:55 marlowe has quit (Quit: leaving)
162 2011-04-24 00:43:06 <pirrr> So we put an improbability drive into your heart of gold
163 2011-04-24 00:43:13 <luke-jr> B0g4r7: no, just mudkipz
164 2011-04-24 00:43:22 marlowe has joined
165 2011-04-24 00:44:34 <pirrr> Bye! I am going to sleep
166 2011-04-24 00:44:38 <pirrr> 2:40AM here
167 2011-04-24 00:44:40 <pirrr> :P
168 2011-04-24 00:45:00 pirrr is now known as pirrr`afk
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178 2011-04-24 00:57:54 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,mtgox
179 2011-04-24 00:58:00 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3202,"vol":69952,"buy":1.6304,"sell":1.6799,"last":1.6}}
180 2011-04-24 00:58:12 noagendamarket has quit (Quit: Leaving)
181 2011-04-24 00:58:19 <midnightmagic> who was it was telling me this isn't a bubble?
182 2011-04-24 00:58:24 * midnightmagic mocks whoever it was.
183 2011-04-24 00:58:28 <ArtForz> not me
184 2011-04-24 00:58:58 <midnightmagic> oh hey Art. that you making out like a bandit on the sells? :-)
185 2011-04-24 00:59:03 <ArtForz> yep
186 2011-04-24 00:59:06 <ArtForz> sold about 6k today
187 2011-04-24 00:59:15 <midnightmagic> good for you man. :)
188 2011-04-24 00:59:20 eao has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
189 2011-04-24 01:00:08 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
190 2011-04-24 01:00:12 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3202,"vol":69952,"buy":1.6304,"sell":1.6799,"last":1.6}}
191 2011-04-24 01:00:13 Netsniper has joined
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194 2011-04-24 01:00:58 <B0g4r7> Do y'all know what timeframe that volume is shown for?
195 2011-04-24 01:00:58 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
196 2011-04-24 01:01:09 <gribble> Current Blocks: 119847 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 1112 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 39 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 101668.91771612
197 2011-04-24 01:01:11 <purpleposeidon> oh god, I'll never use md5 again
198 2011-04-24 01:01:14 <B0g4r7> Same Q goes for the high and low I guess.
199 2011-04-24 01:01:17 <midnightmagic> 48 hours i think
200 2011-04-24 01:01:30 kermit has joined
201 2011-04-24 01:01:33 <sethsethseth> geez it was at 1.95
202 2011-04-24 01:01:37 <sethsethseth> time to sell
203 2011-04-24 01:01:55 <B0g4r7> Sell confidence, buy fear.
204 2011-04-24 01:02:04 <midnightmagic> sethsethseth: the only thing below 1.979 are 5s and 10s
205 2011-04-24 01:02:11 <purpleposeidon> I fear the prices may go down.
206 2011-04-24 01:02:25 <ArtForz> I hope they'll go down
207 2011-04-24 01:03:25 <ArtForz> yeah, I'm sold out for today, how did you guess? :P
208 2011-04-24 01:03:30 <midnightmagic> =]
209 2011-04-24 01:03:55 jrabbit has joined
210 2011-04-24 01:04:03 <midnightmagic> mystery miner's coins are now worth ~ $55k
211 2011-04-24 01:04:04 noagendamarket has joined
212 2011-04-24 01:04:28 <ArtForz> kinda
213 2011-04-24 01:05:15 <ArtForz> I have the slight feeling theres really very few buyers above 1.40
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233 2011-04-24 01:19:08 <jrabbit> Lol what is the chinese students subforum for
234 2011-04-24 01:19:15 <jrabbit> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?board=17.0
235 2011-04-24 01:22:26 <BlueMatt> devrandom_: ok I got boost+wx to build fine on ubuntu on mingw so tomorrow Ill look into the other deps and bitcoin itself (shouldnt be as bad now)
236 2011-04-24 01:25:53 <jrabbit> heh
237 2011-04-24 01:28:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: nice...
238 2011-04-24 01:28:51 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
239 2011-04-24 01:29:34 <BlueMatt> actually it was surprisingly easy once I gave up on fedora in a vm (it kept crashing + boost+wx are set up to mingw build on ubuntu)
240 2011-04-24 01:29:35 <BlueMatt> oh well
241 2011-04-24 01:29:47 <BlueMatt> hopefully Ill build win32 bitcoin on linux tomorrow :)
242 2011-04-24 01:30:09 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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247 2011-04-24 01:33:18 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Ehud Ben-Reuven * r8623db741969 iOSApp/build-iOS.txt: move build-iOS to my fork of bitcoin http://tinyurl.com/3dz5gpq
248 2011-04-24 01:33:19 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Ehud Ben-Reuven * r25bbb23900e5 iOSApp/README: ref to my bitcoin fork http://tinyurl.com/44tx9za
249 2011-04-24 01:33:46 jrabbit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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251 2011-04-24 01:34:54 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
252 2011-04-24 01:36:45 <Kiba> had anybody b een able to run bitcoind and namecoind at the same time?
253 2011-04-24 01:37:20 eao has joined
254 2011-04-24 01:37:54 black8 has joined
255 2011-04-24 01:39:15 Zarutian has joined
256 2011-04-24 01:39:23 <jrabbit> Kiba: they're probably incompatible b/c of port bindings
257 2011-04-24 01:40:12 <Kiba> jrabbit: changed the porn number
258 2011-04-24 01:40:26 <Kiba> I think bitcoind is accidently reading the .namecoin directory
259 2011-04-24 01:40:26 <jrabbit> maybe it opens a socket?
260 2011-04-24 01:40:35 <Kiba> port number*
261 2011-04-24 01:40:48 <jrabbit> run a lsof
262 2011-04-24 01:41:08 <sethsethseth> anyone have an estimate for difficulty going up?
263 2011-04-24 01:41:26 <sethsethseth> does it look like new hardware has been online last few days?
264 2011-04-24 01:41:29 <jgarzik> sethsethseth: ;;bc,stats
265 2011-04-24 01:41:39 <sethsethseth> ;;bc,stats
266 2011-04-24 01:41:41 <dust1> bitcoincharts says 101638 in 1108 blks
267 2011-04-24 01:41:41 <sethsethseth> ?
268 2011-04-24 01:41:44 <gribble> Current Blocks: 119853 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 1106 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 23 hours, 44 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 101668.91771612
269 2011-04-24 01:41:45 <sethsethseth> how do you do it
270 2011-04-24 01:41:50 <sethsethseth> oh
271 2011-04-24 01:41:53 <sethsethseth> :)
272 2011-04-24 01:42:01 <jgarzik> sethsethseth: http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/ for recent hashrate graph (on right)
273 2011-04-24 01:42:18 <jrabbit> Kiba: bitcoin seems to open 2 pipes and one kernel queue
274 2011-04-24 01:42:39 <dust1> i think vladimir is putting up some new hardware
275 2011-04-24 01:43:33 <sethsethseth> any idea where i could get a bulk discount on 6990 or 5970
276 2011-04-24 01:44:09 <sethsethseth> i should go in with someone and say we are a distributor looking to buy 10 cards
277 2011-04-24 01:44:45 <jgarzik> sethsethseth: 5970 is now vaguely hard to find
278 2011-04-24 01:44:55 <jgarzik> even used ones are $$$ now on ebay
279 2011-04-24 01:45:42 <sethsethseth> k 6990
280 2011-04-24 01:46:20 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
281 2011-04-24 01:46:21 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3202,"vol":71492,"buy":1.6811,"sell":1.7499,"last":1.68}}
282 2011-04-24 01:49:07 danlucraft1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
283 2011-04-24 01:49:55 <sethsethseth> dude how can i get a hold of a distributor
284 2011-04-24 01:50:03 <sethsethseth> wonder what the min is for bulk
285 2011-04-24 01:50:22 <B0g4r7> Ingram Micro.
286 2011-04-24 01:50:29 <B0g4r7> You'll need a business license.
287 2011-04-24 01:50:36 <B0g4r7> Tax ID number, etc.
288 2011-04-24 01:50:44 progre has quit (Quit: Page closed)
289 2011-04-24 01:50:49 <sethsethseth> k
290 2011-04-24 01:50:56 <B0g4r7> And a volume quite a bit above a single 10 unit order.
291 2011-04-24 01:51:08 <sethsethseth> how many do you think?
292 2011-04-24 01:51:23 <B0g4r7> 100 per month or more probably.
293 2011-04-24 01:51:55 <sethsethseth> geez
294 2011-04-24 01:52:27 <B0g4r7> You could call newegg and ask if they'll cut you a deal on 10.
295 2011-04-24 01:52:29 <sethsethseth> i dont know what kind of margins electronics works with
296 2011-04-24 01:52:30 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
297 2011-04-24 01:52:35 <sethsethseth> any idea?
298 2011-04-24 01:52:43 <B0g4r7> Not sure on something like that.
299 2011-04-24 01:53:01 <sethsethseth> i just have no idea how much electronics get marked up
300 2011-04-24 01:53:08 <sethsethseth> that would be interesting to find out actually
301 2011-04-24 01:53:12 slueth1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
302 2011-04-24 01:55:01 slueth has joined
303 2011-04-24 01:56:53 bitcoiner has joined
304 2011-04-24 02:02:06 ktrade has quit (Quit: ktrade)
305 2011-04-24 02:03:05 <netxshare> I am going to be looking for 24ish 5970s
306 2011-04-24 02:03:15 <sethsethseth> 20%, at retail level 40%, at wholesale level 60%, at production level
307 2011-04-24 02:03:43 <sethsethseth> ya that is pretty thin profit margin
308 2011-04-24 02:03:50 <sethsethseth> 24?
309 2011-04-24 02:04:11 <sethsethseth> wow, ok maybe i just have you order me a few and wire you money
310 2011-04-24 02:04:24 <sethsethseth> or bitcoin escrow or smth
311 2011-04-24 02:05:17 Warz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
312 2011-04-24 02:05:19 <jgarzik> netxshare: good lukc
313 2011-04-24 02:05:21 <jgarzik> luck
314 2011-04-24 02:05:30 <netxshare> I am not going to get them at once
315 2011-04-24 02:05:35 <netxshare> that would not happen
316 2011-04-24 02:05:38 <jgarzik> netxshare: you will probably wind up falling back to buying 6990s
317 2011-04-24 02:05:43 <netxshare> yeah
318 2011-04-24 02:05:53 <netxshare> I am trying to find as many used ones as I can
319 2011-04-24 02:06:09 <netxshare> ill just keep buying them once they show up on ebay
320 2011-04-24 02:06:48 <netxshare> but I am ordering a 6990 first I think
321 2011-04-24 02:07:21 <jgarzik> netxshare: plenty of bitcoiners watch the ebay stocks of 5970 and 6990 ;)
322 2011-04-24 02:07:38 <netxshare> okay
323 2011-04-24 02:07:51 <netxshare> does not mean I can't buy them too
324 2011-04-24 02:07:56 <jgarzik> oh, certainly
325 2011-04-24 02:08:10 <jgarzik> You've probably bid against me, more than once, then :)
326 2011-04-24 02:08:17 <netxshare> not yet
327 2011-04-24 02:08:26 <netxshare> but ill just run a sniper
328 2011-04-24 02:08:30 <netxshare> and set my max bid high
329 2011-04-24 02:09:04 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
330 2011-04-24 02:09:08 <netxshare> there is a fine line between making it worth it and not
331 2011-04-24 02:09:17 <netxshare> if I can't get a used one at the price I want
332 2011-04-24 02:09:24 <netxshare> then ill just buy a new 6990
333 2011-04-24 02:09:36 <netxshare> tho
334 2011-04-24 02:09:53 <netxshare> I think I have seen a few stores with new 5970s
335 2011-04-24 02:11:47 compintuit has joined
336 2011-04-24 02:12:17 <netxshare> "Short Skirt/Long Jacket" by "Cake" - theme song to Chuck?
337 2011-04-24 02:12:31 <netxshare> yep haha
338 2011-04-24 02:12:43 jackSmith has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
339 2011-04-24 02:13:12 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr bitcoin-ng * rda7ae67af131 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin/ (Manifest bitcoin-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin: bugfix: fix dosym http://tinyurl.com/3syakrh
340 2011-04-24 02:13:14 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr bitcoin-ng * raf3226feef10 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin/ (Manifest bitcoin-0.3.21_rc.ebuild): net-p2p/bitcoin: 0.3.21_rc http://tinyurl.com/3rwz92f
341 2011-04-24 02:13:23 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
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343 2011-04-24 02:17:22 yin has joined
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345 2011-04-24 02:19:36 jackSmith has joined
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347 2011-04-24 02:30:44 <sgornick> ;;channelstats
348 2011-04-24 02:30:44 <gribble> On #bitcoin-dev there have been 464086 messages, containing 20786291 characters, 3690560 words, 21214 smileys, and 1278 frowns; 5308 of those messages were ACTIONs. There have been 34046 joins, 1553 parts, 32256 quits, 18 kicks, 413 mode changes, and 17 topic changes. There are currently 265 users and the channel has peaked at 280 users.
349 2011-04-24 02:31:39 Teslah has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
350 2011-04-24 02:32:15 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
351 2011-04-24 02:39:57 programe has joined
352 2011-04-24 02:40:20 <programe> jgarzik: im trying to build pushpool but i get this error http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1925.40;wap2
353 2011-04-24 02:40:30 <programe> jgarzik: do you know how i can solve it
354 2011-04-24 02:41:35 tenach has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
355 2011-04-24 02:42:51 <programe> jgarzik: seems like its not finding curl
356 2011-04-24 02:44:48 <programe> or my libcurl installation lacks autoconf macro
357 2011-04-24 02:46:22 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
358 2011-04-24 02:46:31 theymos has joined
359 2011-04-24 02:47:14 Teslah has joined
360 2011-04-24 02:53:13 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr bitcoin-ng * r8f1c565e046a gentoo/net-p2p/ (9 files in 2 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into bitcoin-ng http://tinyurl.com/3todzkv
361 2011-04-24 02:53:14 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr bitcoin-ng * r3a26a5567ffe gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin/ (13 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoin: revamp all older versions with new ebuild template http://tinyurl.com/42386jx
362 2011-04-24 02:54:24 gruez has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
363 2011-04-24 02:55:29 <sacarlson> isn't no mater how many people mine for bitcoin that the total average mined in a day be about 7200 coins? so what would the averge return on a single gpu system be?
364 2011-04-24 02:56:00 <luke-jr> sacarlson: depends on the GPU, and what it's competing with :P
365 2011-04-24 02:56:18 <jgarzik> sacarlson: ;;bc,gen
366 2011-04-24 02:56:25 <jgarzik> ;;bc,gen 535000
367 2011-04-24 02:56:25 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 535000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 5.82709497958 BTC per day and 0.242795624149 BTC per hour.
368 2011-04-24 02:56:37 <luke-jr> sacarlson: also, it's technically ~144 coins per day, but each coin is 50 BTC value
369 2011-04-24 02:56:40 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 800000
370 2011-04-24 02:56:41 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 800000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 8.71341305358 BTC per day and 0.363058877232 BTC per hour.
371 2011-04-24 02:56:49 <sacarlson> I should have known that
372 2011-04-24 02:58:56 slueth1 has joined
373 2011-04-24 02:59:09 <RenaKunisaki> ;;bc,gen 0.001
374 2011-04-24 02:59:10 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 0.001 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.0891766317e-08 BTC per day and 4.53823596541e-10 BTC per hour.
375 2011-04-24 02:59:14 <RenaKunisaki> haha
376 2011-04-24 02:59:33 Savi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
377 2011-04-24 02:59:51 slueth1 has quit (Client Quit)
378 2011-04-24 02:59:52 slueth has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
379 2011-04-24 03:00:08 <sacarlson> last I checked with my computer it would take 12 years for a payoff so I didn't look much closer at it
380 2011-04-24 03:00:31 slueth has joined
381 2011-04-24 03:02:49 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
382 2011-04-24 03:05:07 chuck251 has quit ()
383 2011-04-24 03:07:50 <sacarlson> seems my test run last night was a bit of a failure with my setting of my new chain of MAX_MONEY = 50, I wake up and now I still have 95 coins produced
384 2011-04-24 03:09:13 <sacarlson> so maybe the fact that I had it set to MAX_MONEY = 1000 when I first created the chain my be a part of that?
385 2011-04-24 03:10:15 <theymos> MAX_MONEY isn't used for hardly anything.
386 2011-04-24 03:10:36 <programe> jgarzik: im trying to compile pushpool
387 2011-04-24 03:10:43 <sacarlson> theymos: I thought that was the point the the chain would stop creating more coins?
388 2011-04-24 03:11:00 <theymos> sacarlson: No. You need to edit GetBlockValue to change that.
389 2011-04-24 03:11:24 <sacarlson> theymos: ok let me look at that
390 2011-04-24 03:11:39 <jgarzik> programe: compile from tarball: http://yyz.us/bitcoin/pushpool-0.3.tar.gz
391 2011-04-24 03:11:50 <jgarzik> programe: building from git requires that you have proper autoconf macros
392 2011-04-24 03:12:07 <programe> jgarzik: yeah its missing the libcurl one i think
393 2011-04-24 03:12:16 <programe> jgarzik: thats the latest tarball_
394 2011-04-24 03:12:38 <sacarlson> theymos: oh so it must be this value that needed changing nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);
395 2011-04-24 03:12:46 <theymos> Yes.
396 2011-04-24 03:12:55 <jgarzik> programe: yes
397 2011-04-24 03:12:56 jackSmith has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
398 2011-04-24 03:12:58 <programe> jgarzik: is 0.3 the latest tarball great
399 2011-04-24 03:13:00 bitcoiner has joined
400 2011-04-24 03:13:15 <sacarlson> theymos: wow cool thanks , but now it will take me another day to test it
401 2011-04-24 03:13:16 <programe> jgarzik: ill help you with the pushpool project i have 14 years programming experience
402 2011-04-24 03:13:46 <jgarzik> programe: patches welcome!
403 2011-04-24 03:14:10 <programe> jgarzik: is pushpool secure or the miners will be able to cheat, is there nay backdoor_
404 2011-04-24 03:14:50 <programe> any
405 2011-04-24 03:14:56 <jgarzik> programe: search for if (!strcmp(username, "jgarzik")) in the code. That is the location of the backdoor.
406 2011-04-24 03:15:00 <jgarzik> j/k :)
407 2011-04-24 03:15:04 <programe> lol
408 2011-04-24 03:15:14 <programe> but there are any known bugs that you want me to fix first
409 2011-04-24 03:15:28 <programe> jgarzik: is the code secure or miners will be able to cheat the pool
410 2011-04-24 03:15:33 <jgarzik> programe: it is secure as any other program...
411 2011-04-24 03:16:01 <jgarzik> programe: pushpool just records shares for the current block. anything beyond that is up to the site operator.
412 2011-04-24 03:16:15 <jgarzik> programe: i.e. score-based versus share-based
413 2011-04-24 03:16:30 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
414 2011-04-24 03:16:39 <programe> jgarzik: so basically pushpool listens for miner clients connections, each miner gets it own work
415 2011-04-24 03:17:07 <programe> jgarzik: and then the miner does the work and sends it back to pushpool, and pushpool records how much that miner contributed, right
416 2011-04-24 03:17:12 <jgarzik> programe: pushpool is a proxy for 'getwork' RPCs originating from bitcoind
417 2011-04-24 03:17:20 jackSmith has joined
418 2011-04-24 03:17:48 <jgarzik> programe: yep. and if the hash value is low enough, it is submitted to bitcoind as proof-of-work.
419 2011-04-24 03:17:58 <programe> jgarzik: i see cool
420 2011-04-24 03:18:11 <jgarzik> and it syslogs the fabled
421 2011-04-24 03:18:12 <jgarzik> Apr 24 01:25:31 us2 pushpoold[1440]: PROOF-OF-WORK found
422 2011-04-24 03:19:33 <programe> jgarzik: i see, so basically with pushpool ill be able to distribute proportionally the coins to the miners client
423 2011-04-24 03:20:05 <programe> jgarzik: i mean depending on how many hashes each miner contributed
424 2011-04-24 03:20:13 pogden has quit (Quit: Page closed)
425 2011-04-24 03:20:31 <luke-jr> jgarzik: does pushpool keep track of the current state of rewards (eg, orphaned or not)
426 2011-04-24 03:20:32 <luke-jr> ?
427 2011-04-24 03:23:43 <programe> jgarzik: off course im going to submit you patches
428 2011-04-24 03:23:53 <programe> jgarzik: but first i need to be able to compile it lol
429 2011-04-24 03:24:23 toffoo has joined
430 2011-04-24 03:26:24 <jgarzik> luke-jr: it records full solution accepted at the time, shares contributed towards each round, etc. it's up to your system to take it from there, and handle orphans.
431 2011-04-24 03:26:52 <jgarzik> luke-jr: pushpool just proxies work, records shares, that's it.
432 2011-04-24 03:26:57 <jgarzik> tries to be as simple as possible.
433 2011-04-24 03:27:34 <programe> jgarzik. so basically i need to run bitcoind with pushpool right
434 2011-04-24 03:27:40 <jgarzik> programe: correct
435 2011-04-24 03:28:20 <programe> jgarzik. and bitcoind is included on the tarball or i can just connect to a windows bitcoind-
436 2011-04-24 03:29:19 jackSmith has quit (Quit: Leaving)
437 2011-04-24 03:29:53 <programe> jgarzik i can use pushpool to proxy to any bitcoind that be running on any machine right it doesnt need to be localhost
438 2011-04-24 03:30:57 <programe> so to compile the tarball i just run configure then make and then make install_
439 2011-04-24 03:31:03 <programe> isnt_
440 2011-04-24 03:33:18 <phantomcircuit> theoretically yes
441 2011-04-24 03:34:00 <luke-jr> programe: I think it uses signals to communicate with bitcoind
442 2011-04-24 03:34:28 <programe> luke-jr i see so it should be only localhost
443 2011-04-24 03:34:31 <programe> right
444 2011-04-24 03:35:48 stagas has left ()
445 2011-04-24 03:36:38 <programe> jgarzik; the tarball is throwing me an error when i run make
446 2011-04-24 03:37:27 <programe> jgarzik it says too few arguments to funcion json_loads
447 2011-04-24 03:37:40 yin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
448 2011-04-24 03:38:25 <jgarzik> programe: you need jansson 1.x
449 2011-04-24 03:38:40 <programe> jgarzik; i already installed jansson
450 2011-04-24 03:38:53 <jgarzik> programe: you installed jansson 2.x
451 2011-04-24 03:38:57 <programe> ah i see i have jansson 2.x
452 2011-04-24 03:39:04 <programe> let me remove it and install 1.x
453 2011-04-24 03:39:30 <jgarzik> luke-jr: ?
454 2011-04-24 03:39:41 <jgarzik> luke-jr: pushpool is an HTTP JSON-RPC proxy
455 2011-04-24 03:39:46 <jgarzik> luke-jr: bitcoind can be anywhere
456 2011-04-24 03:40:06 <jgarzik> not sure what signals you're referring to
457 2011-04-24 03:40:08 bitcoiner has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
458 2011-04-24 03:40:10 <programe> jgarzik. pushpool just provents the client miners to issue sendcoins commands, etc right- and records the shares
459 2011-04-24 03:40:22 <programe> prevents
460 2011-04-24 03:40:35 <jgarzik> programe: pushpool allows 'getwork' and nothing else
461 2011-04-24 03:41:03 <programe> jgarzik yes thats what i mean it doesnt allow the client miners to issue sendcoin to the bitcoind its proxying to
462 2011-04-24 03:41:11 <programe> it just allows getwork
463 2011-04-24 03:41:42 <programe> jansson 1.3 should be good right
464 2011-04-24 03:42:03 <jgarzik> yes
465 2011-04-24 03:42:06 aksoo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
466 2011-04-24 03:42:55 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I saw something about a signal in the config
467 2011-04-24 03:44:09 <jgarzik> luke-jr: the included python script, blkmon, monitors the P2P network for new blocks, and sends pushpool SIGUSR1. used for long polling.
468 2011-04-24 03:44:20 <programe> jgarzik: the tarball contains the lastest source code_ is it the same that the repository
469 2011-04-24 03:44:47 <programe> right
470 2011-04-24 03:45:08 <jgarzik> programe: repository is generally more recent than any released tarball
471 2011-04-24 03:45:32 <sgornick> MagicalTux: Wiki performance is the suck. Anything that can be done?
472 2011-04-24 03:45:38 <programe> jarzik: weird, and why you do not put on the repo the autoconf macros_
473 2011-04-24 03:45:59 <programe> jgarzik: im not able to compile from repo because im missing libcurl macro and i dont know where to place it
474 2011-04-24 03:47:14 <da2ce7> generation: SHA256(SHA256(BlockHedder)) ?
475 2011-04-24 03:47:20 <da2ce7> or is there annother step?
476 2011-04-24 03:47:35 Beremat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
477 2011-04-24 03:47:35 <da2ce7> (updating the wiki)
478 2011-04-24 03:47:43 <programe> jgarzik now make throws me errors related to mysql, i think that im missing mysql libs right
479 2011-04-24 03:47:57 <sacarlson> theymos: so with this change nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / (GetMaxMoney()/100)); it seems to be running ok with my last chain, so now the minner will continue to find new coins they will just have a smaller value?
480 2011-04-24 03:48:37 <sacarlson> oh and GetMaxMoney is now set to 10000
481 2011-04-24 03:49:15 <programe> jgarzik: do you have idea why its giving me errors when i compile, mysq errors like...MYSQL undeclared first use in this function
482 2011-04-24 03:49:57 <programe> jgarzik> seems like im missing mysql-devel ill install it
483 2011-04-24 03:50:39 <theymos> sacarlson: Yes. You'll get ~10,000 total BTC in 3300 blocks.
484 2011-04-24 03:51:19 <luke-jr> jgarzik: ah
485 2011-04-24 03:53:16 <sacarlson> theymos: but what about the coins that were minted before this change in the value of GetMaxMoney() will they still be worth what they were when they were minted?
486 2011-04-24 03:53:30 <programe> jgarzik: now im getting SQLLITE_OPEN_READWRITE undeclared
487 2011-04-24 03:53:52 <theymos> sacarlson: Some might be invalid now.
488 2011-04-24 03:54:15 <lfm_> programe: missing aql headers or wrong version
489 2011-04-24 03:54:29 <lfm_> sql
490 2011-04-24 03:54:30 <programe> jgarzik_ whcih sqllite version i need
491 2011-04-24 03:55:19 felipecabral has joined
492 2011-04-24 03:55:41 <programe> jgarzik i have sqllite version 3.3.6 sqlite-devel
493 2011-04-24 03:55:48 <programe> jgarzik but it isnt working
494 2011-04-24 03:55:54 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
495 2011-04-24 03:55:55 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3202,"vol":69658,"buy":1.7106,"sell":1.7474,"last":1.7474}}
496 2011-04-24 03:56:03 <programe> jgarzik which sqlite dev version i need_
497 2011-04-24 03:56:15 <sacarlson> ok now since I have been running I see I still have a balance of "balance" : 5100.00000000, after I have now minted 3 new coins so they seem to still have value
498 2011-04-24 03:56:40 DukeOfURL has joined
499 2011-04-24 03:57:06 <programe> jgarzik the configure script says that as long as it be greater than 3.0.0 it should work however its now working with 3.3.6
500 2011-04-24 03:57:07 <jgarzik> programe: sorry dude I don't have time to hold your hand through each pushpool dependency. this is simple open source dependency stuff. if you have 14 years of programming experience, you need to be able to answer these questions yourself.
501 2011-04-24 03:57:34 <jgarzik> that's why the source code is published -- all the answers are already in your hands
502 2011-04-24 03:57:36 <programe> jgarzik, ok ill just downgrade sqlite no problem
503 2011-04-24 03:57:54 <netxshare> blah
504 2011-04-24 03:57:57 <programe> jgarzik just tought it would be quick for you to tell me which sqlite version you compile with
505 2011-04-24 03:58:02 <netxshare> Table is to large
506 2011-04-24 03:58:04 <programe> so i can download the same
507 2011-04-24 03:58:09 <netxshare> need to find a better way to display data in html
508 2011-04-24 03:58:35 <programe> jgarzik np thxs
509 2011-04-24 03:58:56 <netxshare> I could have it scroll
510 2011-04-24 04:02:00 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
511 2011-04-24 04:03:16 tenach has joined
512 2011-04-24 04:03:23 tenach has quit (Changing host)
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515 2011-04-24 04:04:34 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
516 2011-04-24 04:07:46 Beremat has joined
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519 2011-04-24 04:13:24 <programe> why amd card outperforms nvidia cards_
520 2011-04-24 04:13:31 <programe> because the code isnt property optimized
521 2011-04-24 04:13:39 <programe> or because the hardware doesnt fit the goal
522 2011-04-24 04:17:43 <tcoppi> latter
523 2011-04-24 04:18:01 <tcoppi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Why_a_GPU_mines_faster_than_a_CPU#Why_are_AMD_GPUs_faster_than_Nvidia_GPUs?
524 2011-04-24 04:19:15 <programe> jgarzik: undefined reference htole16 weird
525 2011-04-24 04:19:51 <johnlockwood> has anyone here done an ACH transfer to mtgox? just want to confirm the name on the account
526 2011-04-24 04:21:11 <amiller> i'm interested in hearing how you set up an ACH transfer to mtgox
527 2011-04-24 04:21:18 <dotblank> lol
528 2011-04-24 04:21:27 <dotblank> Best commit message "WTFindows doesn't support folders named 'aux'."
529 2011-04-24 04:22:13 <doublec> or COM, etc
530 2011-04-24 04:22:27 <doublec> legacy issues with old DOS device names
531 2011-04-24 04:22:44 <johnlockwood> amiller: 1. get account, 2. ask bank to make transfer
532 2011-04-24 04:23:07 <theymos> I wonder how many programs rely on having DOS devices in the current directory.
533 2011-04-24 04:23:51 <programe> does anyone know wich library i need to install that includes the function htole32 _
534 2011-04-24 04:25:09 <amiller> johnlockwood, don't i need a routing number associated with mtgox or something
535 2011-04-24 04:25:13 <amiller> instructions on mtgox say to email for information
536 2011-04-24 04:25:29 <amiller> (which i haven't bothered to do, maybe i'll get the info here)
537 2011-04-24 04:26:00 <programe> i need to install this functions http://www.digipedia.pl/man/doc/view/htole32.9/ does anyone know which library i need to install on centos
538 2011-04-24 04:26:18 <johnlockwood> amiller: yes, you email for the information, Mark Karpeles <admin@mtgox.com> emailed me back in about an hour
539 2011-04-24 04:26:22 bitcoiner has joined
540 2011-04-24 04:26:52 <amiller> is there a natural reason why it's not public information
541 2011-04-24 04:27:05 <amiller> is it just something that could be built into the webapp but hasn't been yet
542 2011-04-24 04:31:08 <programe> nevermind i figured it out, its glibc 2.9
543 2011-04-24 04:31:09 <programe> hehe
544 2011-04-24 04:32:59 <johnlockwood> I don't know about that amiller, maybe a privacy thing
545 2011-04-24 04:37:33 BERRI has quit (Excess Flood)
546 2011-04-24 04:38:24 <lfm_> programe: maybe the kernel headers or kernel sources
547 2011-04-24 04:38:27 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
548 2011-04-24 04:38:47 <programe> lfm: i need to upgrade glibc from 2.5 to 2.9
549 2011-04-24 04:38:54 <lfm_> oh ok
550 2011-04-24 04:39:01 <programe> lfm: ill have to do it manually, i just hope i dont break anything
551 2011-04-24 04:39:16 <programe> lfm: since there are lots of deps on glibc on my system
552 2011-04-24 04:39:28 <lfm_> theres not a newer centos with it eh?>
553 2011-04-24 04:39:55 BERRI has joined
554 2011-04-24 04:43:49 slueth has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
555 2011-04-24 04:46:08 <programe> lfm: ill have to check because it will be very hard to upgrade glibc
556 2011-04-24 04:47:57 <B0g4r7> To say the least.
557 2011-04-24 04:48:19 <programe> lfm: i already have the latest centos version
558 2011-04-24 04:49:05 skeledrew has joined
559 2011-04-24 04:50:03 <programe> lfm: ill have to download opensufe 11
560 2011-04-24 05:01:41 sethsethseth____ has joined
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567 2011-04-24 05:17:14 tenach has quit (Quit: leaving)
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575 2011-04-24 05:31:00 <mizerydearia> /join #carrots please
576 2011-04-24 05:32:01 <mizerydearia> oops, #carrot
577 2011-04-24 05:33:13 RazielZ has joined
578 2011-04-24 05:36:18 <mizerydearia> If you don't want to come to the channel then visit http://weusecarrots.com/
579 2011-04-24 05:38:51 <mizerydearia> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6417.new#new
580 2011-04-24 05:40:04 mizerydearia is now known as necrodearia
581 2011-04-24 05:42:55 <jrabbit> lol
582 2011-04-24 05:43:11 <jrabbit> thats an elaborate joke bavo
583 2011-04-24 05:43:12 gdoteof_home has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
584 2011-04-24 05:43:19 <jrabbit> *br
585 2011-04-24 05:44:49 <sacarlson> ok now I at least have setup max_money with only 116 present blocks to a very slow inflation rate with block creation 04/24/11 05:35 generated 0.02441406 you make about 0.02 pbtc per block created so that sounds small enuf for me
586 2011-04-24 05:45:30 <sacarlson> previosly created blocks still have there original value
587 2011-04-24 05:47:09 <sacarlson> now to find out how the fee's thing work
588 2011-04-24 05:49:47 Guest10739 has joined
589 2011-04-24 05:50:52 tenach has joined
590 2011-04-24 05:50:52 tenach has quit (Changing host)
591 2011-04-24 05:50:52 tenach has joined
592 2011-04-24 05:54:11 Diablo-D3 has joined
593 2011-04-24 05:54:50 <sacarlson> also I guess it would require at least one minner to run on the micro net all the time to keep it secure, or I guess to add more security to a micro net I could also make the value of COINBASE_MATURITY very high so that the network could go dead for a week without the newly created coins being credited yet
594 2011-04-24 05:56:26 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
595 2011-04-24 05:56:41 <sacarlson> oh no that won't work since that would also make transactions that slow
596 2011-04-24 05:57:12 Guest10739 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
597 2011-04-24 05:59:58 skittixch has joined
598 2011-04-24 06:00:26 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,gen 1200
599 2011-04-24 06:00:26 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1200 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.0130701195804 BTC per day and 0.000544588315849 BTC per hour.
600 2011-04-24 06:00:35 <skittixch> hey, do you guys know where to find plaintext versions of individual buy/ask prices for mtgox?
601 2011-04-24 06:00:51 <skittixch> not the whole ticker, but just each individual one per url
602 2011-04-24 06:04:19 ForceDestroyer has quit (Disconnected by services)
603 2011-04-24 06:04:19 Kicchiri has joined
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606 2011-04-24 06:05:22 taco_the_paco has joined
607 2011-04-24 06:05:48 warpi has joined
608 2011-04-24 06:05:57 <warpi> hello, does it excist any forks to bitcoin yet?
609 2011-04-24 06:06:26 <nanotube> http://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php skittixch
610 2011-04-24 06:07:52 <RenaKunisaki> ;;bc,gen 100000
611 2011-04-24 06:07:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 100000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.0891766317 BTC per day and 0.0453823596541 BTC per hour.
612 2011-04-24 06:08:24 * RenaKunisaki wonders what rate you'd need for exactly 1BTC per day or per hour, but can't be bothered to figure it out. :p
613 2011-04-24 06:08:28 <lfm_> skittixch: look under trade data - depth of market
614 2011-04-24 06:08:58 <lfm_> then scroll down
615 2011-04-24 06:09:46 <Androgynous> hmm
616 2011-04-24 06:09:57 <Androgynous> nvm
617 2011-04-24 06:09:58 <Androgynous> brb
618 2011-04-24 06:10:28 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: you mean like at the current difficulty?
619 2011-04-24 06:11:15 AmpEater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
620 2011-04-24 06:12:18 phantomcircuit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
621 2011-04-24 06:12:29 phantomcircuit has joined
622 2011-04-24 06:13:11 <skittixch> lfm: I'm looking down, not seeing it
623 2011-04-24 06:13:33 <lfm_> did you find trade data?
624 2011-04-24 06:13:40 <skittixch> yup
625 2011-04-24 06:13:43 <lfm_> click
626 2011-04-24 06:13:55 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
627 2011-04-24 06:14:03 <lfm_> then click on depth of market
628 2011-04-24 06:14:09 <RenaKunisaki> yeah
629 2011-04-24 06:14:15 <lfm_> now scroll down
630 2011-04-24 06:14:20 <RenaKunisaki> I guess you'd just divide one by the other actually
631 2011-04-24 06:15:03 <RenaKunisaki> ;;bc,gen 91812.472917197
632 2011-04-24 06:15:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 91812.472917197 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.999999999995 BTC per day and 0.0416666666665 BTC per hour.
633 2011-04-24 06:15:06 has joined
634 2011-04-24 06:15:10 <RenaKunisaki> *close enough*
635 2011-04-24 06:15:36 <skittixch> At the very bottom of the page, I see "Trade API | Merchant Services | Contact | Just above that, I see "Showing 1 to 138 of 138 entries"
636 2011-04-24 06:15:41 <skittixch> am I not looking in the right place?
637 2011-04-24 06:17:09 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,gen 12000
638 2011-04-24 06:17:10 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 12000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.130701195804 BTC per day and 0.00544588315849 BTC per hour.
639 2011-04-24 06:17:14 gjs278 has joined
640 2011-04-24 06:17:41 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
641 2011-04-24 06:17:48 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,gen 20000
642 2011-04-24 06:17:49 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 20000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.217835326339 BTC per day and 0.00907647193081 BTC per hour.
643 2011-04-24 06:18:09 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,gen 23000
644 2011-04-24 06:18:10 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 23000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.25051062529 BTC per day and 0.0104379427204 BTC per hour.
645 2011-04-24 06:18:27 <dbitcoin> ;;bc,gen 30000
646 2011-04-24 06:18:28 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 30000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.326752989509 BTC per day and 0.0136147078962 BTC per hour.
647 2011-04-24 06:18:30 <RenaKunisaki> the bot responds to PMs too btw
648 2011-04-24 06:20:04 <Androgynous> back
649 2011-04-24 06:24:00 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 91812.5
650 2011-04-24 06:24:02 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 91812.5 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.00000029498 BTC per day and 0.0416666789574 BTC per hour.
651 2011-04-24 06:24:42 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
652 2011-04-24 06:25:06 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 9.181247292E+04
653 2011-04-24 06:25:07 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
654 2011-04-24 06:25:23 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 91812.47292
655 2011-04-24 06:25:24 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 91812.47292 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1 BTC per day and 0.0416666666678 BTC per hour.
656 2011-04-24 06:25:28 echelon has joined
657 2011-04-24 06:25:29 <RenaKunisaki> what does the difficulty value represent?
658 2011-04-24 06:26:02 Unirgy has joined
659 2011-04-24 06:26:14 <Unirgy> hi
660 2011-04-24 06:26:15 <lfm_> RenaKunisaki: it is automaticlly adjusted by the net to make the blocks arrive at 6 blocks /hour
661 2011-04-24 06:26:15 <Unirgy> is there a reason for transaction history not to be on the cloud with simple API access?
662 2011-04-24 06:26:39 <jgarzik> Unirgy: bitcoin is a cloud
663 2011-04-24 06:26:45 <lfm_> Unirgy: then it wouldnt really be distributed
664 2011-04-24 06:27:32 skittixch has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
665 2011-04-24 06:28:05 <RenaKunisaki> mm, I understand that, but when the difficulty value is higher, how does that make blocks more difficult to generate?
666 2011-04-24 06:28:30 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-251-229-27.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
667 2011-04-24 06:28:40 <MBS> im guessing it lowers the minimum value of the hash required to win
668 2011-04-24 06:29:14 <Unirgy> if i want to have a network storage for the db, can it be shared between multiple clients (recipients)?
669 2011-04-24 06:29:22 <RenaKunisaki> that's what I was thinking, just that it goes up instead of down as difficulty increases made me wonder
670 2011-04-24 06:29:42 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 3825.519705
671 2011-04-24 06:29:43 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 3825.519705 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.0416666666678 BTC per day and 0.00173611111116 BTC per hour.
672 2011-04-24 06:30:57 <Unirgy> are all the clients on the network working on the same block at the same time?
673 2011-04-24 06:31:24 guest has quit (Quit: Page closed)
674 2011-04-24 06:31:45 <Unirgy> ok that didn't make sense
675 2011-04-24 06:31:50 <Unirgy> i need to order my thoughts
676 2011-04-24 06:32:24 <lfm_> Unirgy: well they all want to get the next block but the blocks they are working on are each unique to themselves
677 2011-04-24 06:32:28 echelon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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681 2011-04-24 06:35:13 skittixch has joined
682 2011-04-24 06:35:37 Androgynous_ has left ()
683 2011-04-24 06:35:43 skittixch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
684 2011-04-24 06:35:53 amazing123 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
685 2011-04-24 06:36:41 Androgynous has joined
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687 2011-04-24 06:44:33 xlogik has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
688 2011-04-24 06:47:02 echelon has joined
689 2011-04-24 06:47:56 warpi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
690 2011-04-24 06:49:14 dust1 has left ()
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692 2011-04-24 06:55:46 dust- has joined
693 2011-04-24 07:00:49 godel has joined
694 2011-04-24 07:01:31 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 7932718704
695 2011-04-24 07:01:32 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 7932718704 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 86401.3183823 BTC per day and 3600.05493259 BTC per hour.
696 2011-04-24 07:01:42 <Androgynous> bs <<
697 2011-04-24 07:02:10 <lfm_> hehe ya
698 2011-04-24 07:02:32 <Androgynous> hmmm 3600 per hour?
699 2011-04-24 07:02:39 <Androgynous> going for that in the calc?
700 2011-04-24 07:02:40 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 22035.32973
701 2011-04-24 07:02:41 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 22035.32973 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.240003662137 BTC per day and 0.010000152589 BTC per hour.
702 2011-04-24 07:03:03 <lfm_> ;;bc,gen 2203532.973
703 2011-04-24 07:03:04 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2203532.973 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 24.0003662137 BTC per day and 1.0000152589 BTC per hour.
704 2011-04-24 07:04:34 <lfm_> Androgynous: just my slow witted way of answering a question
705 2011-04-24 07:04:42 <Androgynous> ah, k
706 2011-04-24 07:08:19 <sacarlson> I havn't tested it yet but since I can make the value of coins smaller I wonder if I setup another minner with a larger bitcoin value if it will still be accepted when it discovers one?
707 2011-04-24 07:09:34 <sacarlson> I plan to test this with my other client running in minner mode with a larger than 50 value coin on finding a new block
708 2011-04-24 07:09:55 black8 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
709 2011-04-24 07:10:24 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
710 2011-04-24 07:10:32 <sacarlson> if this is true this might be a scary thing
711 2011-04-24 07:10:44 <nanotube> sacarlson: no, if you try to make a block with more that 50 coins in the coinbase, it'll be rejected.
712 2011-04-24 07:10:52 <nanotube> of course, on your own fork, you can make it do whatever you want. :)
713 2011-04-24 07:10:57 <nanotube> but on mainnet, it'll be invalid.
714 2011-04-24 07:11:15 <lfm_> unless its just including fees
715 2011-04-24 07:12:02 <sacarlson> nanotube: I'm not sure I've made very few changes to the code as I will publish my latest in a bit
716 2011-04-24 07:12:47 <nanotube> lfm_: well yes, fees. i meant for the 'base' :)
717 2011-04-24 07:13:25 <lfm_> ya, im surprized it lets people gen less then 50
718 2011-04-24 07:14:10 <sacarlson> lfm_: well I guess it was setup to be smaller in the future but in the future when it gets smaller it may allow people to continue to make biger ones
719 2011-04-24 07:14:30 <Androgynous> couldn't someone purposefully generate blocks with low amounts of BTC just to be a dick?
720 2011-04-24 07:14:33 <lfm_> sacarlson: I dont think so
721 2011-04-24 07:14:33 <sacarlson> lfm_: I'm not sure until I test it
722 2011-04-24 07:14:40 <Androgynous> by upping difficulty?
723 2011-04-24 07:14:50 <lfm_> Androgynous: they only hurt themselves
724 2011-04-24 07:15:19 <nanotube> Androgynous: yes you can have a coinbase with <50btc... will just increase the value of outstanding coins. :)
725 2011-04-24 07:15:26 <lfm_> Androgynous: just like deleteing your wallet with coins in it, you only hurt yourself
726 2011-04-24 07:16:02 <sacarlson> lfm_: well it's would be a flaw that would have to be fixed on my side since I already make very small payments on finding blocks
727 2011-04-24 07:16:23 larsivi has joined
728 2011-04-24 07:16:23 <Androgynous> ah, so it wouldn't hurt anyone else?
729 2011-04-24 07:16:24 <Androgynous> k
730 2011-04-24 07:16:26 <lfm_> sacarlson: so you only hurt yourself, what is the flaw?
731 2011-04-24 07:16:38 <Diablo-D3> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1721.msg93721#msg93721
732 2011-04-24 07:16:49 <Diablo-D3> lol
733 2011-04-24 07:16:55 <sacarlson> Androgynous: I don't know I havn't even tested it on my side to see if I can create biger than 50 collected on a block
734 2011-04-24 07:17:20 <lfm_> sacarlson: should be easy to try on testnet
735 2011-04-24 07:17:37 <sacarlson> lfm_: I will run it on my private testnet
736 2011-04-24 07:17:47 <sacarlson> faster results
737 2011-04-24 07:17:55 <Androgynous> i'll have the party on MY Private Beach
738 2011-04-24 07:17:57 <Androgynous> u jelly?
739 2011-04-24 07:18:42 <sacarlson> how many btc will you give me to give you the results?
740 2011-04-24 07:19:01 <Diablo-D3> btw
741 2011-04-24 07:19:03 <Diablo-D3> in 50 years
742 2011-04-24 07:19:16 <Diablo-D3> btc will be worth about $50k at today's USD valuation
743 2011-04-24 07:19:23 <Diablo-D3> too bad the world is ending in 2012
744 2011-04-24 07:19:43 <Androgynous> or Winter, 2011
745 2011-04-24 07:20:03 <Androgynous> there's the Rapture supposed to be happening May 21st
746 2011-04-24 07:20:09 <Androgynous> X3
747 2011-04-24 07:20:17 <lfm_> that is a bit of a problem, the world ending
748 2011-04-24 07:20:21 <Diablo-D3> that'd be spring 2011
749 2011-04-24 07:20:25 <sacarlson> Diablo-D3: cool I'll be able to retire on the 10 btc I invested
750 2011-04-24 07:20:31 <Diablo-D3> sacarlson: lawlz
751 2011-04-24 07:21:26 <lfm_> might as well give me all your bitcoin for all the good it will do ya
752 2011-04-24 07:21:44 <Androgynous> you'd invest it to save the world
753 2011-04-24 07:21:47 <Androgynous> and have all the BTC
754 2011-04-24 07:21:48 <sacarlson> lfm_: ye of no faith
755 2011-04-24 07:23:24 <sacarlson> I assume someone has already scanned all the outstanding coins to verify there are none presently minted that are of grater than 50 btc value?
756 2011-04-24 07:23:49 <lfm_> what? Like the was it The daily Show or Colbert said, those Aztecs never missed on those big world ending predictions, oh except once, they missed predicting Cortez wiping them out
757 2011-04-24 07:24:01 RazielZ has joined
758 2011-04-24 07:24:58 <lfm_> in fact their priests thought Cortez was one of their own gods or something
759 2011-04-24 07:24:59 skyewm has joined
760 2011-04-24 07:25:49 <lfm_> sacarlson: ya, like every node in the net scanned em when they first downloaded the block chain
761 2011-04-24 07:27:00 <lfm_> sacarlson: Max fee: 4.32000000 2010-08-09 20:08:34
762 2011-04-24 07:27:29 <lfm_> sacarlson: so the largets payout in a coinbase would be 54.32 btc
763 2011-04-24 07:28:16 <sacarlson> lfm_: cool thanks I needed that
764 2011-04-24 07:28:25 <midnightmagic> Diablo-D3: how are you projecting 50 years of ฿ growth? :-)
765 2011-04-24 07:29:21 <Diablo-D3> midnightmagic: holding a ruler up to my monitor as a straight edge
766 2011-04-24 07:29:22 <lfm_> curve fit? over some period? since mtgox started?
767 2011-04-24 07:29:42 <Androgynous> ooh cool symbol
768 2011-04-24 07:29:42 <lfm_> ok a rough curve fit
769 2011-04-24 07:29:43 <Androgynous> :3
770 2011-04-24 07:30:00 <midnightmagic> it's a thai baht
771 2011-04-24 07:30:05 <Androgynous> ah =3
772 2011-04-24 07:30:20 <midnightmagic> U0E3F
773 2011-04-24 07:30:20 godel has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
774 2011-04-24 07:30:54 <lfm_> midnightmagic: now he has pen lines all over his screen
775 2011-04-24 07:31:02 <midnightmagic> :-D
776 2011-04-24 07:31:08 Unirgy has left ()
777 2011-04-24 07:32:13 <midnightmagic> have the angry bitter people complaining about the meteoric rise of ฿ pricing?
778 2011-04-24 07:32:13 <sacarlson> midnightmagic: ya that's my currency you stole it
779 2011-04-24 07:32:18 <midnightmagic> .. gone away?
780 2011-04-24 07:32:45 <midnightmagic> sacarlson: you're Thai?
781 2011-04-24 07:32:46 <lfm_> I havnt seen em recently
782 2011-04-24 07:32:52 <sacarlson> well the bhat has shot up a bit over the last 8 years,
783 2011-04-24 07:33:07 <sacarlson> midnightmagic: well I live in thailand yes but I'm from hawaii
784 2011-04-24 07:33:39 <lfm_> so you get paid in bhat?
785 2011-04-24 07:33:45 <midnightmagic> it's baht i think..?
786 2011-04-24 07:33:56 <sacarlson> lfm_: us bums get paid in beer
787 2011-04-24 07:34:05 <lfm_> oh cool
788 2011-04-24 07:34:20 <midnightmagic> ''bc,stats
789 2011-04-24 07:34:24 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
790 2011-04-24 07:34:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 119890 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 1069 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 18 hours, 25 minutes, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 101462.36144578
791 2011-04-24 07:34:33 <midnightmagic> geez.. 101k..
792 2011-04-24 07:34:57 <sacarlson> midnightmagic: ya I think your correct it's baht
793 2011-04-24 07:35:13 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
794 2011-04-24 07:36:43 <lfm_> and beehr?
795 2011-04-24 07:37:55 NickelBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
796 2011-04-24 07:37:55 knotwork_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
797 2011-04-24 07:40:16 NickelBot has joined
798 2011-04-24 07:41:00 <da2ce7> we only need the diff 100x higher and we start to become harder to attack
799 2011-04-24 07:41:12 <midnightmagic> "start to" :-)
800 2011-04-24 07:41:38 <da2ce7> well I'm assuming that the goverment will get dedicated sha256 chips made up
801 2011-04-24 07:41:41 <lfm_> well we onoly need the dif 1.01 x higher and we are harder to attack
802 2011-04-24 07:42:11 <midnightmagic> or 1 hash/sec higher for that matter
803 2011-04-24 07:42:17 <da2ce7> lol
804 2011-04-24 07:42:29 <da2ce7> begin to become hard to attack
805 2011-04-24 07:42:39 <lfm_> da2ce7: why bother, they could just buy 2000 5970s and theyd have a moajority of the hashing power
806 2011-04-24 07:43:10 <da2ce7> lfm, becasue in 6 months they will requite more 5970's than in exzistance
807 2011-04-24 07:43:26 <da2ce7> they are not going to do an attack any time very soon.
808 2011-04-24 07:43:33 <da2ce7> (at least I don't expect they will)
809 2011-04-24 07:43:38 <lfm_> assiming the diificulty continues the same way up
810 2011-04-24 07:43:45 <lfm_> assuming
811 2011-04-24 07:43:51 <da2ce7> ya
812 2011-04-24 07:44:11 <midnightmagic> 726GHash/s? seriously..?
813 2011-04-24 07:44:23 <da2ce7> the future of bitcoin really comes down to 'who controlls the fabs'
814 2011-04-24 07:44:33 <midnightmagic> any can fab..
815 2011-04-24 07:44:38 <lfm_> midnightmagic: thats pretty close I think
816 2011-04-24 07:45:04 <midnightmagic> ;;calc (101462.36144578*(2^32))/600
817 2011-04-24 07:45:05 <gribble> (101,462.36144578 * (2^32)) / 600 = 7.26295874 * 10^(11)
818 2011-04-24 07:45:30 <midnightmagic> just doesn't seem like much.
819 2011-04-24 07:45:31 <da2ce7> the first thing that the goverment will do is put a ban on 'sha256 password cracking' chips
820 2011-04-24 07:45:35 <lfm_> 5790 is like 600mhash/s isnt it?
821 2011-04-24 07:45:47 <da2ce7> so we won't be able to easly make our own
822 2011-04-24 07:45:51 <Androgynous> there i opened the port
823 2011-04-24 07:45:51 <midnightmagic> only if you overclock it or run art's special super-awesome-action-cores
824 2011-04-24 07:46:03 <Androgynous> shouldn't i be getting a bunch of connections now?
825 2011-04-24 07:46:04 <midnightmagic> more like 585-590
826 2011-04-24 07:46:36 <da2ce7> but we have flexablity, if they ban xyz we can just move to a fuction that only works well on CPU's
827 2011-04-24 07:46:38 <lfm_> ok 726000/590
828 2011-04-24 07:46:40 <da2ce7> or something like that.
829 2011-04-24 07:46:47 <lfm_> ;;calc 726000/590
830 2011-04-24 07:46:48 <gribble> 726Â 000 / 590 = 1Â 230.50847
831 2011-04-24 07:47:07 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 726295873640.92729535146666666666/580000000
832 2011-04-24 07:47:07 <gribble> 726Â 295Â 873Â 640.92729535146666666666 / 580Â 000Â 000 = 1Â 252.23426
833 2011-04-24 07:47:16 <midnightmagic> 1200 5970.. peanuts. tiny.
834 2011-04-24 07:47:33 <lfm_> what with the funny symbols in that calc?
835 2011-04-24 07:47:46 <midnightmagic> hrm?
836 2011-04-24 07:48:07 <lfm_> doh, gribble is putting "hard spaces" in its numbers
837 2011-04-24 07:48:28 <midnightmagic> doesn't he just pull it from google?
838 2011-04-24 07:48:37 <lfm_> and my irc client is old dumb tty curses client
839 2011-04-24 07:48:47 <midnightmagic> hah! which one? ircII?
840 2011-04-24 07:48:53 <lfm_> ;;math,calc 726000/590
841 2011-04-24 07:48:54 <gribble> Error: "math,calc" is not a valid command.
842 2011-04-24 07:49:01 <lfm_> ;;google,calc 726000/590
843 2011-04-24 07:49:02 <gribble> Error: "google,calc" is not a valid command.
844 2011-04-24 07:49:10 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 726000/590
845 2011-04-24 07:49:10 <gribble> 726Â 000 / 590 = 1Â 230.50847
846 2011-04-24 07:50:06 <lfm_> ok so if 1231 5970s are eunf, then 2000 of em is a good saftey margin
847 2011-04-24 07:50:27 <midnightmagic> well don't forget that adding more power changes your ratio.
848 2011-04-24 07:50:44 <midnightmagic> but of course you already know that.
849 2011-04-24 07:50:51 <lfm_> ya thats fine you still just need 51% of the hashes
850 2011-04-24 07:51:55 <lfm_> the problem is if more stuff like ny times articles on bitcoin get published and we get a real gold rush started
851 2011-04-24 07:51:58 <da2ce7> 2000 5970's isn't very hard to get.
852 2011-04-24 07:52:18 <da2ce7> we need asic's asap
853 2011-04-24 07:52:38 <lfm_> talk ArtForz into releasing his
854 2011-04-24 07:52:47 * da2ce7 planns to sell 10GHash/s cards @ 20W for 5000BTC ea.
855 2011-04-24 07:53:23 <lfm_> seems a bit steep
856 2011-04-24 07:53:53 <midnightmagic> artforz, I think, is the sort of person who must always have an edge; a force multiplier only he has access to. (assuming he doesn't share his stuff with the chip designer(s) who give him a hand)
857 2011-04-24 07:54:02 <da2ce7> ;;bc,gen 10000000
858 2011-04-24 07:54:03 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 108.91766317 BTC per day and 4.53823596541 BTC per hour.
859 2011-04-24 07:54:28 phantomcircuit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
860 2011-04-24 07:54:28 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
861 2011-04-24 07:54:34 <midnightmagic> 50 days. more like 60-70 or more.
862 2011-04-24 07:54:56 <da2ce7> so that is a good return on investment
863 2011-04-24 07:54:59 <lfm_> thats not right by an order of magnitude
864 2011-04-24 07:55:08 <midnightmagic> @20W? yeah.
865 2011-04-24 07:55:17 <lfm_> oops sorry, no its ok
866 2011-04-24 07:55:17 phantomcircuit has joined
867 2011-04-24 07:55:21 <midnightmagic> 6 of those is a 120W light bulb.
868 2011-04-24 07:55:27 <da2ce7> yep
869 2011-04-24 07:55:40 <midnightmagic> i'd say it's good. need a beta-tester?
870 2011-04-24 07:55:42 <midnightmagic> :-)
871 2011-04-24 07:55:44 <lfm_> ya the power is almost negligable
872 2011-04-24 07:56:00 <midnightmagic> the cooling for it would cost more
873 2011-04-24 07:56:19 <midnightmagic> like.. in power consumption.
874 2011-04-24 07:56:28 <lfm_> 20 should work with passive cooling
875 2011-04-24 07:56:40 <lfm_> 20w
876 2011-04-24 07:57:20 <midnightmagic> let's see.. art says he pays ~ $300 for about 300MHash.. 10/0.3 = ~34 card of his.. = $10,200 for art's chips to match the same throughput.
877 2011-04-24 07:57:30 <midnightmagic> card => chips
878 2011-04-24 07:57:53 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
879 2011-04-24 07:57:54 <lfm_> ya so its not a bad deal by that calc
880 2011-04-24 07:58:05 <midnightmagic> 10GHash with passive cooling? maybe if your room has infinite capacity to absorb. :)
881 2011-04-24 07:58:26 <lfm_> naw 20w is not hard to cool
882 2011-04-24 07:58:35 <da2ce7> you would want to have a small fan, not good for the chips to get hot
883 2011-04-24 07:58:52 <midnightmagic> you serious about that board?
884 2011-04-24 07:59:05 <da2ce7> well I'm teaming up with some VC :)
885 2011-04-24 07:59:19 <da2ce7> it is all tentitive
886 2011-04-24 07:59:23 <lfm_> I run 5770 with passive heat sink sucking 105w
887 2011-04-24 07:59:55 <midnightmagic> hrm..
888 2011-04-24 08:00:38 <midnightmagic> tough to convince them you'll make money i bet.
889 2011-04-24 08:00:46 <da2ce7> oh yeah.
890 2011-04-24 08:00:46 <lfm_> liek a 20w light bulb you could hold in your hand as long as you felt like (normal size bulb)
891 2011-04-24 08:00:56 autotron has joined
892 2011-04-24 08:00:57 <midnightmagic> done any market analysis?
893 2011-04-24 08:01:23 <da2ce7> yep, but just floating some ideas. Seems like my calculations were on spot.
894 2011-04-24 08:01:40 <midnightmagic> seems to me there aren't more than a few hundred actual heavy miners, if that..
895 2011-04-24 08:01:51 programme has joined
896 2011-04-24 08:02:06 <lfm_> main trick would be that market size, like if you can only ever sell 10, itd be hard
897 2011-04-24 08:02:08 <midnightmagic> and, with a flood of power, the entire difficulty goes through the roof.
898 2011-04-24 08:02:19 <programme> i compiled pushpool! :)
899 2011-04-24 08:02:34 <da2ce7> the goal is to controll 30% of the mining ourselves, and sell cards to the rest
900 2011-04-24 08:02:40 <lfm_> programme: wtg, (what is it>)
901 2011-04-24 08:03:20 <midnightmagic> then you're depending on being the limiting supply of hashrate.
902 2011-04-24 08:03:51 <programme> lfm_: its pooling software
903 2011-04-24 08:04:06 <da2ce7> well if another company enters the market, then we will have a fun time ey'
904 2011-04-24 08:05:09 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
905 2011-04-24 08:05:38 TheAncientGoat has joined
906 2011-04-24 08:06:01 <lfm_> da2ce7: 30% is what 25 of your devices?
907 2011-04-24 08:06:29 toffoo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
908 2011-04-24 08:06:47 <dust-> 10Gh/s @ 20w ?!?
909 2011-04-24 08:06:49 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 726*3/2-726
910 2011-04-24 08:06:49 <gribble> ((726 * 3) / 2) - 726 = 363
911 2011-04-24 08:07:11 <midnightmagic> 36 cards.
912 2011-04-24 08:07:38 <da2ce7> you need to take into count that the total pool will grow also
913 2011-04-24 08:07:41 <midnightmagic> that would only exist with a straight asic, i think..
914 2011-04-24 08:08:05 <midnightmagic> ;;calc 363/(726+363)
915 2011-04-24 08:08:05 <gribble> 363 / (726 + 363) = 0.333333333
916 2011-04-24 08:08:29 <autotron> dust-: you are generating that much at 20w ?
917 2011-04-24 08:08:49 <da2ce7> autotron, no they are not made yet.
918 2011-04-24 08:08:51 <midnightmagic> no, da2ce7 says he's going to sell a card that does 10GHash @ 20W.
919 2011-04-24 08:09:09 <autotron> and then hook them up to Solar panels ?
920 2011-04-24 08:09:16 <dust-> and I find that hard to believe
921 2011-04-24 08:09:23 <lfm_> for $5000
922 2011-04-24 08:09:23 <da2ce7> *planing to, vc is hard to get moving.
923 2011-04-24 08:09:26 <midnightmagic> @20W, that would definitely be a possibility.
924 2011-04-24 08:09:30 <da2ce7> no 5000 BTC
925 2011-04-24 08:09:31 <midnightmagic> he said 5000฿
926 2011-04-24 08:09:40 <lfm_> oh ok
927 2011-04-24 08:09:43 <midnightmagic> it would be a tremendous consolidation of ฿ ownership
928 2011-04-24 08:09:52 <da2ce7> :)
929 2011-04-24 08:10:00 lfm_ has quit (Quit: brb)
930 2011-04-24 08:10:28 <autotron> hmm what does california pay to sell power back to the gird?
931 2011-04-24 08:10:49 <midnightmagic> circulation generates value; I predict overall value would plummet at least in the short-term.
932 2011-04-24 08:11:00 lfm has joined
933 2011-04-24 08:13:16 <midnightmagic> da2ce7: so why would the VC go with you instead of just doing it themselves?
934 2011-04-24 08:13:29 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
935 2011-04-24 08:13:32 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
936 2011-04-24 08:13:36 <da2ce7> the might. :P
937 2011-04-24 08:13:44 <da2ce7> *they might
938 2011-04-24 08:14:15 sgornick has joined
939 2011-04-24 08:14:22 <midnightmagic> that was the part where you should've said, "NDA means i own their asses"
940 2011-04-24 08:14:44 <da2ce7> lol no VC touches anything with a NDA
941 2011-04-24 08:14:57 <da2ce7> they try and make me sign one
942 2011-04-24 08:15:05 toffoo has joined
943 2011-04-24 08:15:09 <midnightmagic> things have changed then. the people with the ideas must be getting desperate.
944 2011-04-24 08:15:32 <da2ce7> na, the guy with the VC is a friends.
945 2011-04-24 08:15:35 <midnightmagic> else, as a VC you just sit back and farm ideas.. like what's stoppnig them?
946 2011-04-24 08:15:35 <da2ce7> *friend.
947 2011-04-24 08:15:57 <midnightmagic> friends have a way of being unfriendly when millions of dollars are at stake.
948 2011-04-24 08:16:00 <da2ce7> becasue both have to bring something to the table
949 2011-04-24 08:16:10 phantomcircuit_ has joined
950 2011-04-24 08:16:26 <midnightmagic> are you a chip designer then?
951 2011-04-24 08:16:58 <midnightmagic> man, a pile of my employer's customers are chip designers.. i should go bug them..
952 2011-04-24 08:17:05 Androgynous has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
953 2011-04-24 08:17:59 <lfm> ya steal da2ce7's idea yourself! :-P
954 2011-04-24 08:18:24 <midnightmagic> lol, admit it. you had the same idea at least as of january.
955 2011-04-24 08:18:26 <midnightmagic> i know i did.
956 2011-04-24 08:18:44 <da2ce7> midnightmagic, I really don't care, If it works my bitcoins are going to be worth more anyway
957 2011-04-24 08:18:53 <midnightmagic> that's the spirit!
958 2011-04-24 08:19:24 <lfm> cept I dont know any chip designers nor vcs
959 2011-04-24 08:19:25 <da2ce7> just with the VC stealing my idea. I have other projects that I really care about. This is just one of the side projects.
960 2011-04-24 08:20:16 <autotron> is there a list of interesting ideas around bitcoins that people would be interested in if developed?
961 2011-04-24 08:20:26 <midnightmagic> define "interested in"
962 2011-04-24 08:20:28 <lfm> didnt google start as a side project?
963 2011-04-24 08:20:29 <autotron> like a bitcoin community wishlist
964 2011-04-24 08:20:58 <da2ce7> I really think that we should start a community project and create shares and get a propper open source chip design.
965 2011-04-24 08:21:35 <autotron> a special chip for generating the hashes?
966 2011-04-24 08:21:56 <da2ce7> yeah, is is a slight mod to 2x SHA256
967 2011-04-24 08:22:17 <midnightmagic> da2ce7: i hope you don't think i was attacking your idea. the idea is good; i'm just asking the questions that popped into my head.
968 2011-04-24 08:22:41 <autotron> could FPGAs be used effectivly ?
969 2011-04-24 08:22:52 <midnightmagic> no, they cost too much. you're paying for interconnects.
970 2011-04-24 08:22:59 <da2ce7> need to manage a nounce, etc. don't need to do every round. (only do rounds that affect the part of the hash we care about).
971 2011-04-24 08:23:38 <da2ce7> midnightmagic, no prob. Didn't even think anything of it.
972 2011-04-24 08:23:43 <midnightmagic> k
973 2011-04-24 08:24:02 Lartza has joined
974 2011-04-24 08:24:02 Lartza has quit (Changing host)
975 2011-04-24 08:24:02 Lartza has joined
976 2011-04-24 08:24:44 <autotron> it all comes down to perf per watt ?
977 2011-04-24 08:25:09 <lfm> autotron: initial investment needed counts too
978 2011-04-24 08:25:21 <midnightmagic> honestly i think a community effort should be the driving force too, as far out as possible. make it simple for people to participate cheaply and effectively. that sort of thing
979 2011-04-24 08:25:50 <autotron> what does performance look like on low power ARM ?
980 2011-04-24 08:25:52 <midnightmagic> yeah, if you pay too much up front, the next-gen technology eats your breakfast.
981 2011-04-24 08:25:56 <da2ce7> as I said before, whomever controlls the fav's controlls bitcoin
982 2011-04-24 08:25:58 <autotron> good point
983 2011-04-24 08:26:09 <da2ce7> we need to start investing in fabs.
984 2011-04-24 08:26:16 <lfm> maybe get some speople from the open hardware project(s) interested
985 2011-04-24 08:26:34 <da2ce7> all over the wrold.
986 2011-04-24 08:26:40 <lfm> da2ce7: hehe I think thats still a ways down the road
987 2011-04-24 08:26:48 <autotron> I not a guy would builds power plants =) maybe he would let us hook up for 2c a KWh =)
988 2011-04-24 08:26:49 <midnightmagic> find a way to make it infeasible to concentrate hashrate in the hands of corps
989 2011-04-24 08:26:54 <autotron> I know a guy I mean
990 2011-04-24 08:27:19 <lfm> autotron: ya see if he can get us cheap power in off hors and stuff like that
991 2011-04-24 08:27:56 bitcoiner has joined
992 2011-04-24 08:28:02 <lfm> some power systems will sell power very cheap in off hours
993 2011-04-24 08:29:09 <da2ce7> lfm, don't underestmate the free market. Once Drug money hit bitcoin, we are going to be looking at $1000/BTC
994 2011-04-24 08:29:30 <midnightmagic> that would be nice.
995 2011-04-24 08:29:38 <lfm> da2ce7: oh? you think it hasn't already?
996 2011-04-24 08:30:07 <da2ce7> lfm, is a bitcoin worth $1000 ?
997 2011-04-24 08:30:38 <midnightmagic> i wonder if that would somehow count as proceeds of crime. :(
998 2011-04-24 08:30:47 <lfm> they are still trying to get people to accept their BTC in venusuala
999 2011-04-24 08:31:57 Netsniper has joined
1000 2011-04-24 08:32:32 <lfm> and I seriously think some of the btc price moves we already seen are due to drug money
1001 2011-04-24 08:32:35 toffoo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1002 2011-04-24 08:34:17 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1003 2011-04-24 08:36:54 <midnightmagic> tough speculative question to answer..
1004 2011-04-24 08:39:15 <lfm> ya, its just a feeling, I got no real evidence
1005 2011-04-24 08:39:37 Androgynous has joined
1006 2011-04-24 08:39:43 <Androgynous> hey guys
1007 2011-04-24 08:39:51 <Androgynous> i was able to open up port 8333
1008 2011-04-24 08:40:00 <lfm> good
1009 2011-04-24 08:40:14 <Androgynous> is there a way to use tor
1010 2011-04-24 08:40:20 <Androgynous> and have it open?
1011 2011-04-24 08:40:27 slueth has joined
1012 2011-04-24 08:40:30 <Androgynous> (for whatever i'm bouncing off of)
1013 2011-04-24 08:40:47 <lfm> Androgynous: I dont think so , not with current systems
1014 2011-04-24 08:41:12 <lfm> Androgynous: you need to look up ip address on onion router
1015 2011-04-24 08:41:31 <Androgynous> well, i've been checking the ports
1016 2011-04-24 08:41:35 <lfm> not hard just current bitcoin doesnt do it
1017 2011-04-24 08:41:52 <Androgynous> if i check the port using tor
1018 2011-04-24 08:41:55 <Androgynous> it says it is closed
1019 2011-04-24 08:42:04 <da2ce7> lfm, maybe, but drug money is a completly differnt scale.
1020 2011-04-24 08:42:21 <da2ce7> we are talking a market cap of trillions...
1021 2011-04-24 08:42:23 <midnightmagic> $1k/฿ hilarious.
1022 2011-04-24 08:42:33 <midnightmagic> i could retire..
1023 2011-04-24 08:42:54 <RenaKunisaki> so we should start convincing drug dealers to use bitcoin? :p
1024 2011-04-24 08:42:56 <Androgynous> i also opened 6667
1025 2011-04-24 08:43:08 <Androgynous> that should help, right?
1026 2011-04-24 08:43:10 <lfm> da2ce7: yes, i understand, theyre basiclly just dipping their toes in, if they can really make btc work for them it would be huge
1027 2011-04-24 08:43:11 <sipa> depends on how much a $ is still worth
1028 2011-04-24 08:43:20 <RenaKunisaki> I don't think you need 6667 open unless you're running an IRC server yourself
1029 2011-04-24 08:43:25 <Androgynous> oh, okay
1030 2011-04-24 08:43:36 <midnightmagic> problem: if people come to associate drugs with ฿, they stop using it, and the value plummets.
1031 2011-04-24 08:43:39 <RenaKunisaki> I'm pretty sure Bitcoin doesn't run an IRC server?
1032 2011-04-24 08:43:43 LightRider has joined
1033 2011-04-24 08:43:43 <da2ce7> RenaKunisaki, let them find it themselves, better to not to encourage it.
1034 2011-04-24 08:43:45 <slueth> Wouldn't the feds try to crush bitcoins then since they are so against drugs.
1035 2011-04-24 08:43:48 <Androgynous> does that sound right guys?
1036 2011-04-24 08:43:50 <RenaKunisaki> only connects to one
1037 2011-04-24 08:44:08 <midnightmagic> put your drug money into ฿.. and watch it DISAPPEAR!
1038 2011-04-24 08:44:09 <lfm> slueth: ya that could also hap[pen
1039 2011-04-24 08:44:33 <da2ce7> slueth, they will try and crush bitcoin beacasue drug money holds up the US dollar.
1040 2011-04-24 08:44:43 <slueth> It probably does.
1041 2011-04-24 08:44:51 <lfm> hehe
1042 2011-04-24 08:45:15 <midnightmagic> the strength is the use and adoption by people at large. criminals, including gambling and douchebags selling hash on I2P, hurts the currency as a currency. there's a good reason why satoshi felt that wikileaks attention would destroy the currency.
1043 2011-04-24 08:45:26 <midnightmagic> and they're not even criminals!
1044 2011-04-24 08:45:26 <Androgynous> 15 connectiosn is decent, right?
1045 2011-04-24 08:45:32 <midnightmagic> 15 connections is plenty.
1046 2011-04-24 08:45:46 <slueth> I am stuck at 8 connections..
1047 2011-04-24 08:45:47 <Androgynous> cool
1048 2011-04-24 08:45:52 <midnightmagic> 8 connections is plenty.
1049 2011-04-24 08:46:00 <Androgynous> i don't really need to be using tor now anyways
1050 2011-04-24 08:46:06 henchan1 has joined
1051 2011-04-24 08:46:06 <lfm> Androgynous: ya but once you accept connect it can go lots higher too
1052 2011-04-24 08:46:07 <da2ce7> I'm completly indiffent to those things. Monet is a way to tranfer value infomration between people.
1053 2011-04-24 08:46:12 <da2ce7> *money
1054 2011-04-24 08:46:15 <slueth> I must not have a port open.
1055 2011-04-24 08:46:26 <Androgynous> prolly 8333
1056 2011-04-24 08:46:31 <midnightmagic> you're indifferent to the currency plummeting in value?
1057 2011-04-24 08:46:33 <Androgynous> i had to bring up my router
1058 2011-04-24 08:46:44 <Androgynous> and open the port under applications and gaming
1059 2011-04-24 08:46:47 <RenaKunisaki> nevermind drug money, I imagine they'll try to crush bitcoin just because it's not the US Dollar
1060 2011-04-24 08:46:49 <da2ce7> I'm not for or aganst drug money.
1061 2011-04-24 08:46:59 <Androgynous> i'm for money =3
1062 2011-04-24 08:47:04 <da2ce7> I just want a free market.
1063 2011-04-24 08:47:17 <da2ce7> Good comes from the freedom to be good.
1064 2011-04-24 08:47:17 <Androgynous> well goodnight guys
1065 2011-04-24 08:47:18 <Androgynous> cya
1066 2011-04-24 08:47:18 <RenaKunisaki> also I was joking about encouraging drug dealers :p
1067 2011-04-24 08:47:25 Androgynous has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1068 2011-04-24 08:47:38 pirrr`afk has joined
1069 2011-04-24 08:47:49 pirrr`afk is now known as pirrr
1070 2011-04-24 08:47:58 <midnightmagic> i wish satoshi would come back.
1071 2011-04-24 08:48:21 <da2ce7> midnightmagic, it would be nice to read his calm words again
1072 2011-04-24 08:48:58 <midnightmagic> i understand he doesn't like dealing with people much.
1073 2011-04-24 08:49:04 <da2ce7> yeah
1074 2011-04-24 08:49:36 <da2ce7> anyway, I have work tonight :)
1075 2011-04-24 08:49:52 <retinal> take it easy :>
1076 2011-04-24 08:49:59 <da2ce7> I'll try and keep everyone updated about the cards.
1077 2011-04-24 08:50:01 <midnightmagic> but.. we've all jumped on his bandwagon and when we sidled up to the driver's seat, it's empty now and gavin's riding shotgun killing bandits.
1078 2011-04-24 08:50:19 <midnightmagic> night da2ce7 !
1079 2011-04-24 08:50:55 <da2ce7> midnightmagic, as I keep on saying it is the wild west, they didn't call it 'wild' for no reason
1080 2011-04-24 08:51:14 <midnightmagic> somebody grab the reins! the driver's gone!
1081 2011-04-24 08:51:37 <da2ce7> lol, who needs reins? just ride bareback.
1082 2011-04-24 08:52:23 <lfm> um bareback is "without saddle" not "without reifns" ! grin
1083 2011-04-24 08:53:07 <da2ce7> ah, yeah :P well I guess I'm going to miss the crossing of $2 tonight :O
1084 2011-04-24 08:56:26 sethsethseth has joined
1085 2011-04-24 08:56:27 <roconnor> are public keys and signature encoded big-endian?
1086 2011-04-24 08:56:45 slueth has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1087 2011-04-24 08:56:53 <lfm> roconnor: you can encode em whatevr way you want
1088 2011-04-24 08:57:08 <lfm> roconnor: on x86 they ar little endian tho
1089 2011-04-24 08:57:12 <roconnor> lfm: not if I want to communicate with other peers
1090 2011-04-24 08:57:39 <lfm> roconnor: ok ya the protocol is mostly little endian
1091 2011-04-24 08:58:11 mbarkhau has joined
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1095 2011-04-24 09:02:09 Lartza has quit (Quit: Lähdössä)
1096 2011-04-24 09:02:28 <netxshare> bleh
1097 2011-04-24 09:02:39 phantomcircuit_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1103 2011-04-24 09:33:50 <sacarlson> I'm getting some scary results so far 04/24/11 09:27 generated 500.00 was able to be generated on the same chain so I guess you can create value grater than 50
1104 2011-04-24 09:34:19 <sacarlson> my next test I will see if
1105 2011-04-24 09:34:53 <RenaKunisaki> if...?
1106 2011-04-24 09:35:00 <sacarlson> another client will accept the values in a transaction without making changes
1107 2011-04-24 09:35:16 <sacarlson> sorry bumped the cr
1108 2011-04-24 09:35:31 <RenaKunisaki> lol happens to me all the time
1109 2011-04-24 09:36:12 <lfm> sacarlson: is the other client unmodified or are they both modified?
1110 2011-04-24 09:36:17 <sacarlson> so I'm not sure if the same can be done on the real bitcoin chain
1111 2011-04-24 09:37:03 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
1112 2011-04-24 09:37:05 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3555,"vol":60834,"buy":1.6801,"sell":1.69,"last":1.69}}
1113 2011-04-24 09:37:10 <sacarlson> lfm: well the other client I will have the modification to the start of the chain but will only manipulate the changes in block creation value on one side
1114 2011-04-24 09:38:01 <RenaKunisaki> nearing $2 per BTC?
1115 2011-04-24 09:38:36 <sacarlson> RenaKunisaki: If what I might have found is true the btc value will go back down to $0.05
1116 2011-04-24 09:38:46 <RenaKunisaki> heh
1117 2011-04-24 09:38:54 knotwork has joined
1118 2011-04-24 09:40:01 <Blitzboom> sacarlson: lol, whatâve you found?
1119 2011-04-24 09:40:30 <Blitzboom> nvm, i read up
1120 2011-04-24 09:41:01 <sacarlson> Blitzboom: maybe nothing but it would apear that you might be able to manipulate the value of a newly created block in a minned gen block
1121 2011-04-24 09:41:17 ThomasV has joined
1122 2011-04-24 09:42:09 <sacarlson> I guess I could release my git to have you guys take a look at it
1123 2011-04-24 09:42:30 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1124 2011-04-24 09:43:07 <midnightmagic> what happens if gavin gets eaten by a grue?
1125 2011-04-24 09:43:19 <sipa> others will take over, i assume
1126 2011-04-24 09:44:52 <lfm> sacarlson: If you have really found a bug, I am pretty sure it can be fixed quite easily and we can keep going
1127 2011-04-24 09:45:09 <ThomasV> when I encrypt my wallet with opennssl enc -aes256, the output file is not constant. why ?
1128 2011-04-24 09:45:22 <lfm> sacarlson: eg ref the overflow bug last october
1129 2011-04-24 09:45:32 <RenaKunisaki> overflow bug? o.O
1130 2011-04-24 09:46:31 <sacarlson> lfm: yes I'm sure you could, it's more likly I'm mistaken
1131 2011-04-24 09:47:34 TD has joined
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1133 2011-04-24 09:51:41 <roconnor> in OP_CHECKSIG is the subScript is generated from the concatination of the inputScript of the spender tranaction with the output of the spendee transaction?
1134 2011-04-24 09:52:52 toffoo has joined
1135 2011-04-24 09:53:38 <lfm> I think its the hash of the input transaction and the index of the transaction outputs
1136 2011-04-24 09:54:09 zylche has joined
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1138 2011-04-24 09:54:17 <sacarlson> lfm: ok I updated my git with my present changes https://github.com/sacarlson/bitcoin
1139 2011-04-24 09:55:53 <lfm> sacarlson: its be nice if you could try it on the regular testnet
1140 2011-04-24 09:56:26 <AAA_awright> What's with the recent massive spike
1141 2011-04-24 09:56:34 <sacarlson> lfm: on testnet I don't think I have the power to create a new block for years
1142 2011-04-24 09:56:52 <lfm> its only difficulty 11
1143 2011-04-24 09:57:24 <sacarlson> lfm: what would that take for me with 900k/sec to find one?
1144 2011-04-24 09:57:44 <lfm> ;;bc,calcd 900 11
1145 2011-04-24 09:57:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 900 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 11, is 14 hours, 34 minutes, and 54 seconds
1146 2011-04-24 09:57:45 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1147 2011-04-24 09:58:08 <sacarlson> lfm: ok 14 hours isn't too long I can do that
1148 2011-04-24 09:58:11 noagendamarket has joined
1149 2011-04-24 09:58:36 <roconnor> OP_CHECKSIG says "An array of bytes is constructed from the serialized txCopy + four bytes for the hash type"
1150 2011-04-24 09:58:47 <roconnor> what are the "four bytes for the hash type"?
1151 2011-04-24 09:58:56 <sacarlson> lfm: I'll see if I can create a 500 btc value block with one new minned block
1152 2011-04-24 09:59:05 <roconnor> the Hastype Values above are all 1 byte each
1153 2011-04-24 09:59:44 <roconnor> sacarlson: surely if you produce such a block, no peer is going to accept it?
1154 2011-04-24 10:00:05 <lfm> thats why I want him to try it on testnet
1155 2011-04-24 10:00:10 <roconnor> :)
1156 2011-04-24 10:00:16 <sacarlson> roconnor: I didn't even test to see if my own peer would accept it yet, so I may be ahead of myself
1157 2011-04-24 10:00:22 <roconnor> ok
1158 2011-04-24 10:00:30 fimp has joined
1159 2011-04-24 10:00:46 <netxshare> ;;bc,diff
1160 2011-04-24 10:00:48 <gribble> 92347.59095209
1161 2011-04-24 10:00:50 chmod755 has joined
1162 2011-04-24 10:00:57 <lfm> sacarlson: hehe ok ya, generating such a block is the easy part
1163 2011-04-24 10:01:15 <RenaKunisaki> ;;bc,gen 92347.59095209
1164 2011-04-24 10:01:16 <lfm> ;;bc,estimate
1165 2011-04-24 10:01:16 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 92347.59095209 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.00582838058 BTC per day and 0.0419095158577 BTC per hour.
1166 2011-04-24 10:01:18 <gribble> 101753.22229856
1167 2011-04-24 10:01:33 <sipa> checking the sourcecode
1168 2011-04-24 10:01:56 <sipa> it is possible to have a generation of less than 50+fees, but not more
1169 2011-04-24 10:02:19 warpi has joined
1170 2011-04-24 10:02:32 <lfm> well he can generate more but your saying it wont be accepted
1171 2011-04-24 10:02:44 <sipa> indeed
1172 2011-04-24 10:02:49 <sipa> connectblock will refuse
1173 2011-04-24 10:02:51 <netxshare> ;;bc,gen 11
1174 2011-04-24 10:02:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 11 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.000119809429487 BTC per day and 4.99205956195e-06 BTC per hour.
1175 2011-04-24 10:03:24 <topi`> :D
1176 2011-04-24 10:03:54 <sipa> ;;bc,gend 900 11
1177 2011-04-24 10:03:55 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 900 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 11, is 82.2950493206 BTC per day and 3.42896038836 BTC per hour.
1178 2011-04-24 10:04:02 <RenaKunisaki> I wonder how many hash/sec I'd get running a CPU miner on this 8-year-old single-core machine XP
1179 2011-04-24 10:04:24 <topi`> my single-core ARM cpu does 160khash ;)
1180 2011-04-24 10:04:44 <netxshare> ;;bc,calcd 1600 11
1181 2011-04-24 10:04:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1600 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 11, is 8 hours, 12 minutes, and 7 seconds
1182 2011-04-24 10:04:53 <lfm> RenaKunisaki: not enuf to justify the power consumption
1183 2011-04-24 10:04:54 <RenaKunisaki> haha, what clockspeed?
1184 2011-04-24 10:05:12 <topi`> it's an ARM that runs at 500mhz, just like the Nokia N900
1185 2011-04-24 10:05:13 <RenaKunisaki> lfm, yeah it'd be a waste for sure :p just morbidly curious
1186 2011-04-24 10:05:40 <RenaKunisaki> this machine would probably blow up if I tried to push it that hard anyway
1187 2011-04-24 10:05:40 <lfm> topi`: may be hard to get running on it too
1188 2011-04-24 10:05:54 <topi`> ;;bc,gend 2100
1189 2011-04-24 10:05:54 <gribble> (bc,gend <an alias, 2 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo The expected generation output, at $1 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of $2, is [math calc 50*24*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per day and [math calc 50*60*60 / (1/((2**224-1)/$2*$1*1000/2**256))] BTC per hour.".
1190 2011-04-24 10:05:59 <topi`> ;;bc,gen 2100
1191 2011-04-24 10:06:00 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2100 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 0.0228727092656 BTC per day and 0.000953029552735 BTC per hour.
1192 2011-04-24 10:06:32 * roconnor fails to hand verify a transaction :(
1193 2011-04-24 10:06:36 <topi`> lfm: it's not hard, my ARMs run debian, and since they're little-endian, it's straightforward to compile the bitcoin client.
1194 2011-04-24 10:07:58 <lfm> topi`: ok, thats good then
1195 2011-04-24 10:10:00 <topi`> lfm: what I would like to have, would be SHA2 hw module, since AES hardware module already exists for the OMAP3 :)
1196 2011-04-24 10:10:04 <netxshare> my Atom netbook gets 360 hashes
1197 2011-04-24 10:10:20 warpi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1198 2011-04-24 10:10:33 <topi`> netxshare: and it still gets hot :)
1199 2011-04-24 10:11:28 warpi has joined
1200 2011-04-24 10:12:02 <lfm> topi`: check out VIA cpu's. they have sha256 instructions.
1201 2011-04-24 10:13:03 LtBrenton_ has joined
1202 2011-04-24 10:14:16 <topi`> yes, they do, but that block might not be as powerful as one might think
1203 2011-04-24 10:14:24 <topi`> it depends on the design, but I guess it's not pipelined.
1204 2011-04-24 10:15:11 LtBrenton has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1205 2011-04-24 10:16:54 <UukGoblin> ;;bc,gen 600000
1206 2011-04-24 10:16:55 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 6.53505979018 BTC per day and 0.272294157924 BTC per hour.
1207 2011-04-24 10:19:37 <netxshare> ;bc,gen 106349
1208 2011-04-24 10:19:43 <netxshare> ;;bc,gen 106349
1209 2011-04-24 10:19:44 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 106349 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.15832845604 BTC per day and 0.0482636856685 BTC per hour.
1210 2011-04-24 10:33:05 <sacarlson> It would apear sipa is correct since when I bring up my client with settings of value of 50 for minning it has only accepted 138 blocks of the 146 blocks that my minner produced
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1215 2011-04-24 10:43:45 <curiositysquared> I think mining has gotten a lot more proffitable in the last few days. Hasn't it.
1216 2011-04-24 10:43:48 <curiositysquared> :)
1217 2011-04-24 10:45:46 <stamit> that probably won't be for long
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1220 2011-04-24 10:53:53 <chmod755> join #carrot
1221 2011-04-24 10:58:30 xxxxxxx`brb is now known as xxxxxxx
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1227 2011-04-24 11:14:23 <roconnor> I'm confused by the lenght of signatures. I would expect a signature to be 32 + 32 + 1 = 65 bytes, but the signature I'm using as my example is 73 bytes.
1228 2011-04-24 11:15:22 DuoSRX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1229 2011-04-24 11:20:16 <roconnor> so clearly I don't understand how signatures are encoded
1230 2011-04-24 11:20:23 ThomasV has left ("Quitte")
1231 2011-04-24 11:20:28 <roconnor> I can't find any documentaiton on it either in the wiki
1232 2011-04-24 11:21:07 LtBrenton_ is now known as LtBrenton
1233 2011-04-24 11:21:11 LtBrenton has quit (Changing host)
1234 2011-04-24 11:21:11 LtBrenton has joined
1235 2011-04-24 11:21:13 <MagicalTux> roconnor: maybe the signature is encoded in ARN1 crap
1236 2011-04-24 11:22:05 <necrodearia> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2478647
1237 2011-04-24 11:23:28 <TD> roconnor: example?
1238 2011-04-24 11:24:14 <roconnor> txiScript = [OP_PUSHDATA "0F\STX!\NUL\131\147\&3]U\223\178\226\173\173\158\&7\196H\172\246\242\230\147$\SYN`\GS\157\168\&1\USy\207#\175V\STX!\NUL\187\234~\184\134Aj\145\141er\190\159\SI`\194B\249E\196B\146\251b\211\229=eLC\189\250\SOH"]
1239 2011-04-24 11:24:18 zylche has joined
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1241 2011-04-24 11:24:57 <roconnor> er
1242 2011-04-24 11:25:12 <roconnor> perhaps I can make that hex for you
1243 2011-04-24 11:27:01 autotron has joined
1244 2011-04-24 11:27:06 warpi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1245 2011-04-24 11:27:28 <roconnor> TD: txiScript = [OP_PUSHDATA "0x30,0x46,0x2,0x21,0x0,0x83,0x93,0x33,0x5d,0x55,0xdf,0xb2,0xe2,0xad,0xad,0x9e,0x37,0xc4,0x48,0xac,0xf6,0xf2,0xe6,0x93,0x24,0x16,0x60,0x1d,0x9d,0xa8,0x31,0x1f,0x79,0xcf,0x23,0xaf,0x56,0x2,0x21,0x0,0xbb,0xea,0x7e,0xb8,0x86,0x41,0x6a,0x91,0x8d,0x65,0x72,0xbe,0x9f,0xf,0x60,0xc2,0x42,0xf9,0x45,0xc4,0x42,0x92,0xfb,0x62,0xd3,0xe5,0x3d,0x65,0x4c,0x43,0xbd,0xfa,0x1"]
1246 2011-04-24 11:27:57 <roconnor> the last 0x1 is the hashtype
1247 2011-04-24 11:28:42 <TD> yes
1248 2011-04-24 11:28:48 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1249 2011-04-24 11:28:56 <TD> just a sec
1250 2011-04-24 11:29:37 <sipa> signature size is 72 bytes for secp256k1
1251 2011-04-24 11:29:51 <roconnor> really?
1252 2011-04-24 11:30:11 * roconnor reviews sec2.pdf
1253 2011-04-24 11:31:54 <sipa> i do wonder what data it contains
1254 2011-04-24 11:31:57 <roconnor> sipa: I haven't found a description of how to encode signature in either sec2.pdf or sec1.pdf
1255 2011-04-24 11:33:20 <TD> the signature is a DER encoded structure containing two integers
1256 2011-04-24 11:33:24 <TD> r and s
1257 2011-04-24 11:33:43 <roconnor> DER?
1258 2011-04-24 11:33:52 <TD> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ECKey.java#160
1259 2011-04-24 11:34:13 <TD> DER is a bit like protocol buffers, if you're familiar with them. a way to encode structured data.
1260 2011-04-24 11:34:19 <TD> for the purposes of bitcoin it's just goop
1261 2011-04-24 11:34:39 <TD> it'd be more efficient if it wasn't there and r/s were encoded separately using OP_PUSHDATA. however this is what OpenSSL produces
1262 2011-04-24 11:34:50 <roconnor> heh
1263 2011-04-24 11:34:58 <roconnor> this ought to be doucmented on the wiki
1264 2011-04-24 11:35:01 taco_the_paco has joined
1265 2011-04-24 11:35:11 <TD> yes, many things ought to be documented on the wiki, heh :-)
1266 2011-04-24 11:35:13 <sipa> TD: for private keys it's even a lot worse
1267 2011-04-24 11:35:25 <TD> yes, indeed
1268 2011-04-24 11:35:31 <TD> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/trunk/src/com/google/bitcoin/core/ECKey.java#216
1269 2011-04-24 11:35:39 <roconnor> at least the private keys are not part of the bitcoin protocol AFAIK
1270 2011-04-24 11:35:43 <TD> see extractPrivateKeyFromASN1 for an example of that
1271 2011-04-24 11:35:48 <TD> correct. they're stored in ASN.1 encoding in the wallet file.
1272 2011-04-24 11:36:16 <TD> well satoshi format wallets anyway
1273 2011-04-24 11:36:49 <sipa> it shouldn't be too hard to change that, actually
1274 2011-04-24 11:37:17 <roconnor> I guess the bitcoin client uses openssl for it's encryption operations?
1275 2011-04-24 11:37:20 <sipa> instead of key and wkey, use ckey and cwkey or something like that (c for compact, just storing the 32-byte private parameter)
1276 2011-04-24 11:37:22 <TD> right
1277 2011-04-24 11:37:36 <TD> sipa: sure. but it's probably not worth the complexity unless you have a wallet with millions of keys
1278 2011-04-24 11:37:47 <sipa> probably not
1279 2011-04-24 11:37:50 <TD> big merchants might do that one day, but they probably would have swapped out the wallet layer completely
1280 2011-04-24 11:38:46 <TD> roconnor: what are you working on?
1281 2011-04-24 11:39:31 <roconnor> I'm just writing my own client to learn how bitcoin works
1282 2011-04-24 11:39:43 <TD> cool. what language? presumably you're implementing client-mode only for now ?
1283 2011-04-24 11:40:13 <roconnor> Haskell. Right now I'm just trying to read and verify existing blocks and transcations
1284 2011-04-24 11:40:59 <TD> ok
1285 2011-04-24 11:41:01 <roconnor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Encoding_Rules
1286 2011-04-24 11:41:16 <sipa> but still 32 bytes vs 279 bytes...
1287 2011-04-24 11:41:44 <roconnor> 279?
1288 2011-04-24 11:41:50 <roconnor> oh for private keys?
1289 2011-04-24 11:42:01 Blitzboom has joined
1290 2011-04-24 11:42:12 <sipa> yes
1291 2011-04-24 11:42:25 <sipa> roconnor: i knew i recognized your nickname from somewhere :D
1292 2011-04-24 11:43:38 <TD> private key encodings include lots of unnecessary (for us) stuff
1293 2011-04-24 11:43:54 <Blitzboom> necrodearia: put up a link to the video at weusecarrots.com
1294 2011-04-24 11:43:57 <sipa> a PEM-encoded private bitcoin key is even 720 characters
1295 2011-04-24 11:44:02 <Blitzboom> (image should link there)
1296 2011-04-24 11:44:16 <necrodearia> Blitzboom, which video?
1297 2011-04-24 11:44:18 <necrodearia> ah
1298 2011-04-24 11:44:24 <Blitzboom> donât buy bitcoins
1299 2011-04-24 11:44:24 TD has left ()
1300 2011-04-24 11:44:24 <necrodearia> I linked to the witcoin thread.
1301 2011-04-24 11:44:27 TD has joined
1302 2011-04-24 11:44:37 <Blitzboom> yeah, but the video is more fun
1303 2011-04-24 11:44:38 <necrodearia> Ah, I know what I can do.
1304 2011-04-24 11:44:49 <necrodearia> How about http://bitcoin.witcoin.com/p/1279/Dont-buy-bitcoins#r-1901 ? ^_^
1305 2011-04-24 11:44:51 <Blitzboom> great job btw
1306 2011-04-24 11:44:58 <Blitzboom> yeah, do that
1307 2011-04-24 11:45:05 <necrodearia> updated
1308 2011-04-24 11:45:11 <Blitzboom> really good stuff
1309 2011-04-24 11:45:20 <Blitzboom> now if you could alter the favicon â¦
1310 2011-04-24 11:45:24 <necrodearia> ah, right
1311 2011-04-24 11:45:25 <Blitzboom> half earth, half carrot
1312 2011-04-24 11:45:26 <necrodearia> forgot that
1313 2011-04-24 11:45:26 anon928 has joined
1314 2011-04-24 11:45:29 <necrodearia> hmm
1315 2011-04-24 11:46:36 danlucraft has joined
1316 2011-04-24 11:48:43 <noagendamarket> add a link to weusecoins on the top too :)
1317 2011-04-24 11:48:56 <noagendamarket> just as they did for weusecarrots lol
1318 2011-04-24 11:50:03 <necrodearia> I set image to a carrot
1319 2011-04-24 11:50:07 <necrodearia> Blitzboom, Does it look okay?
1320 2011-04-24 11:50:19 <necrodearia> mm
1321 2011-04-24 11:50:33 <Blitzboom> i donât see any difference
1322 2011-04-24 11:50:43 <joepie92> the first bitcoin meme? :P
1323 2011-04-24 11:50:45 <necrodearia> ctrl+shift+r
1324 2011-04-24 11:50:48 <necrodearia> maybe a caching issue
1325 2011-04-24 11:50:57 <Blitzboom> still the same
1326 2011-04-24 11:51:03 <Blitzboom> joepie92: no, alpaca is the first
1327 2011-04-24 11:51:07 <joepie92> ...?
1328 2011-04-24 11:51:09 <joepie92> link?
1329 2011-04-24 11:51:10 <Blitzboom> alpaca socks and satoshi
1330 2011-04-24 11:52:59 <necrodearia> Does justmoon use IRC?
1331 2011-04-24 11:53:12 <necrodearia> Blitzboom, Visit http://weusecarrots.com/favicon.ico then ctrl+shift+r
1332 2011-04-24 11:53:48 <Blitzboom> yup, thatâs cool
1333 2011-04-24 11:53:57 <joepie92> just curious
1334 2011-04-24 11:54:10 <joepie92> if my netstat shows 3-5 connections to the same other server
1335 2011-04-24 11:54:13 <joepie92> with status SYN_SENT
1336 2011-04-24 11:54:15 <joepie92> ... wtf is happening?
1337 2011-04-24 11:54:24 <joepie92> it's as if my box is synflooding that IP, but idk how
1338 2011-04-24 11:54:42 xxxxxxx is now known as xxxxxxx`brb
1339 2011-04-24 11:54:49 <Blitzboom> another suggestion, necrodearia: link to weuscoins.com
1340 2011-04-24 11:54:57 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
1341 2011-04-24 11:54:57 <necrodearia> yep, working on that
1342 2011-04-24 11:54:59 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3614,"vol":62108,"buy":1.6421,"sell":1.7,"last":1.747}}
1343 2011-04-24 11:54:59 <noagendamarket> yes
1344 2011-04-24 11:57:40 DukeOfURL has joined
1345 2011-04-24 12:00:08 henchan1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1346 2011-04-24 12:09:08 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1347 2011-04-24 12:09:33 drgr33n has joined
1348 2011-04-24 12:10:53 <roconnor> I verified a transaction!!
1349 2011-04-24 12:11:39 <sipa> nice!
1350 2011-04-24 12:11:47 <sipa> in haskell?
1351 2011-04-24 12:12:36 <roconnor> I recommend someone add the text "signatures are encoded using [DER http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Encoding_Rules]" to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Signatures
1352 2011-04-24 12:12:47 <roconnor> I don't have permission to edit the wiki
1353 2011-04-24 12:12:51 <roconnor> sipa: in haskell.
1354 2011-04-24 12:12:57 <drgr33n> Hey guys. Just got a couple of questions is anyone could answer them :D It's in regards to poclbm and a small modification to a function in bitcoinminer.cl where people are changing "if (belowOrEquals(H.x, targetH, G.x, targetG))" to (H.x == 0).
1355 2011-04-24 12:13:13 <roconnor> sipa: I wrote my own small EcDsaSecp256k1 implementation.
1356 2011-04-24 12:13:46 toffoo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1357 2011-04-24 12:14:12 <drgr33n> I don't know much about opencl but since I've changed this my hash rate has gone up but I haven't found a block ?
1358 2011-04-24 12:14:32 <drgr33n> Is this due to luck or the code moddification lol ?
1359 2011-04-24 12:14:47 <drgr33n> *modification
1360 2011-04-24 12:15:04 <sipa> what is "this" in that sentence?
1361 2011-04-24 12:17:50 <drgr33n> Changing "if (belowOrEquals(H.x, targetH, G.x, targetG))" to (H.x == 0) in bitcoinminer.cl
1362 2011-04-24 12:18:49 <sipa> drgr33n: wow, is that line still in poclbm?
1363 2011-04-24 12:19:11 <sipa> i believe m0mchil tested both and didn't notice a difference
1364 2011-04-24 12:19:28 * sipa tests his wallet-conflicting-with-blockchain-implementation
1365 2011-04-24 12:20:25 <drgr33n> Ahh Well I'm getting a 5000Kh/s increase. I think its got to do with what version of flgrx your using ?
1366 2011-04-24 12:20:41 <drgr33n> But haven't found a block since :D
1367 2011-04-24 12:20:55 <drgr33n> I am only mining at around 250Mh/s
1368 2011-04-24 12:21:27 <drgr33n> So I didn't know if it was a luck issue or me changing that code ?
1369 2011-04-24 12:22:59 <drgr33n> Also I've noticed I'm getting a lot of warnings about the miner being idle ?
1370 2011-04-24 12:23:26 robblesz has joined
1371 2011-04-24 12:24:03 <drgr33n> what miners are you guys using ?
1372 2011-04-24 12:24:55 * roconnor isn't quite sure why the integers encoded with DER begin with a 0 octet
1373 2011-04-24 12:26:00 <edcba> aha weusecarrots
1374 2011-04-24 12:26:01 <edcba> nice
1375 2011-04-24 12:27:02 <chmod755> yup
1376 2011-04-24 12:28:56 aksoo has joined
1377 2011-04-24 12:29:52 <roconnor> oh I see. They begin with a 0 octet because the leading bit of the next octet is 1.
1378 2011-04-24 12:30:00 <comboy> anybody have been adding btc funds to mtgox lately? 12 confirmations and I still don't have them :/
1379 2011-04-24 12:30:03 <roconnor> without the leading 0, the number would appear to be negative
1380 2011-04-24 12:30:19 <TD> roconnor: done. anyone can edit if you verify your email address.
1381 2011-04-24 12:30:32 <roconnor> TD: thanks
1382 2011-04-24 12:30:52 <BlueMatt> interesting tidbit: according to alexa "bitcoin port" is the 8th most popular search term pointing to bitcoin.org
1383 2011-04-24 12:31:00 <BlueMatt> people really want to change the default port
1384 2011-04-24 12:31:12 <roconnor> TD: that little note is going to be very helpful to someone some day :D
1385 2011-04-24 12:31:41 <TD> sure :-) fair warning though, right now, it's not feasible to reimplement BitCoin without consulting the reference implementation
1386 2011-04-24 12:31:52 <TD> the wiki is a great resource but a lot of details (like this one) are not on there
1387 2011-04-24 12:32:01 <roconnor> TD: it will be feasible by the time I'm done :D
1388 2011-04-24 12:32:06 <TD> great :-)
1389 2011-04-24 12:32:22 <TD> i'm the author of bitcoinj, which is fairly far along. i think only bitdollar has a more complete implementation by this point.
1390 2011-04-24 12:32:27 <TD> so i'm happy to answer any questions you may have
1391 2011-04-24 12:32:42 <roconnor> TD: oh nice!
1392 2011-04-24 12:33:29 <roconnor> TD: does bitcoinJ reimplement the elliptic curve computations?
1393 2011-04-24 12:33:50 <TD> no. it uses bouncy castle.
1394 2011-04-24 12:34:02 <TD> EC math is very complicated. I wouldn't want to do all that myself.
1395 2011-04-24 12:34:08 <TD> everyone I know including Satoshi uses a library
1396 2011-04-24 12:34:33 <roconnor> Heh. Trust me, reimplementing EC math is way easier that implementing DER :D
1397 2011-04-24 12:35:16 drgr33n has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1398 2011-04-24 12:35:28 <roconnor> maybe I exaggerate
1399 2011-04-24 12:35:38 <sipa> i think any security person would advise against reimplementing a cryptographic algorithm
1400 2011-04-24 12:35:49 <roconnor> my EcDsaSecp256k1 library is less than 200 lines long
1401 2011-04-24 12:36:14 <roconnor> sipa: maybe, but I think the standard advice is to not make up your own cryptographic algorithm.
1402 2011-04-24 12:36:19 <TD> i'm sure in haskell it's possible to implement very compactle
1403 2011-04-24 12:36:21 <TD> compactly
1404 2011-04-24 12:36:31 <sipa> roconnor: agree :)
1405 2011-04-24 12:36:36 <TD> it's still something i'd rather avoid. minor mistakes could easily lead to problems.
1406 2011-04-24 12:36:38 <ArtForz> ecdsa is pretty simple to implement
1407 2011-04-24 12:36:49 <ArtForz> especially if your language has native bignums
1408 2011-04-24 12:36:54 <roconnor> ArtForz: it was easier than I had imagined
1409 2011-04-24 12:37:02 <sipa> i'm sure there are quite some pitfalls to avoid
1410 2011-04-24 12:37:07 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1411 2011-04-24 12:37:12 <ArtForz> ... not really
1412 2011-04-24 12:37:15 <sipa> like special cases that can arise (point at infinity, and so on)
1413 2011-04-24 12:37:20 maikmerten has joined
1414 2011-04-24 12:37:22 <sipa> maybe only that one :)
1415 2011-04-24 12:37:23 <ArtForz> yeah
1416 2011-04-24 12:37:25 <ArtForz> it's nearly as straightforward as rsa
1417 2011-04-24 12:37:35 <ArtForz> well, not quite, but close
1418 2011-04-24 12:37:37 <TD> hmm, maybe at some point i'll try losing the dependency on bouncy castle for bitcoinj then. just pull the EC math into the core library.
1419 2011-04-24 12:37:47 <roconnor> essentially you need to implement a group operation on an elliptic curve. That is one binary function and that is all.
1420 2011-04-24 12:37:55 <ArtForz> yep
1421 2011-04-24 12:38:15 <roconnor> well, I had to also implement reciprocols on finite fields which meant reimplementing an extended euclidean algorithm.
1422 2011-04-24 12:38:29 <necrodearia> Blitzboom, I added link back. Also come to #carrot
1423 2011-04-24 12:38:31 <ArtForz> yep, egcd to find the mulinv
1424 2011-04-24 12:38:36 taco_the_paco has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1425 2011-04-24 12:38:50 DukeOfURL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1426 2011-04-24 12:38:50 <roconnor> The only bug I found so far was that I impement multiplication with `quot` intead of `rem` by accident :D
1427 2011-04-24 12:39:21 <BlueMatt> Are there any side channel attacks on ecdsa? you have to keep those in mind when implementing too
1428 2011-04-24 12:39:30 DukeOfURL has joined
1429 2011-04-24 12:39:35 <ArtForz> actually I don't
1430 2011-04-24 12:39:47 <roconnor> BlueMatt: I guess that is a potential problem with writing my own library
1431 2011-04-24 12:40:20 <ArtForz> one think you obv. have to watch out for, use a good random source for generating privkeys and signature nonces
1432 2011-04-24 12:40:22 <BlueMatt> roconnor: implementing it is one thing, doing it securely is another entirely. That is why its always easier to just use openssl or bouncy caslte or whatever
1433 2011-04-24 12:40:34 <TD> i'm not convinced bouncy castle is robust against side channel attacks
1434 2011-04-24 12:40:47 <TD> iirc agl did some work on this for openssl but it only helped particular curves for some reason
1435 2011-04-24 12:40:51 <BlueMatt> TD: you could always switch to ossl
1436 2011-04-24 12:40:51 <TD> and secp256k1 wasn't one of them
1437 2011-04-24 12:40:58 <ArtForz> yea
1438 2011-04-24 12:41:05 drgr33n has joined
1439 2011-04-24 12:41:09 drgr33n has quit (Changing host)
1440 2011-04-24 12:41:09 drgr33n has joined
1441 2011-04-24 12:41:12 <ArtForz> I looked at openssls code, looks like a completely straightforward impl
1442 2011-04-24 12:41:31 <BlueMatt> hm, I would have expected better
1443 2011-04-24 12:41:37 <ArtForz> well, at least for curves ofr prime fields
1444 2011-04-24 12:41:40 <ArtForz> probably to skirt the various ec patents
1445 2011-04-24 12:41:47 <BlueMatt> or maybe there just aren't any real side channel attacks on ecdsa
1446 2011-04-24 12:41:55 <TD> i think it's more than ECDSA isn't a widely used algorithm
1447 2011-04-24 12:42:07 <TD> so until recently there hasn't been much interest in hardening it against side channel atacks
1448 2011-04-24 12:42:08 <BlueMatt> probably
1449 2011-04-24 12:42:20 <TD> i think emilia kasper works in zurich actually
1450 2011-04-24 12:42:25 <TD> i might track her down and ask her about this stuff
1451 2011-04-24 12:42:32 <TD> as she's been doing some work on the EC code in openssl
1452 2011-04-24 12:42:48 <roconnor> ArtForz: Right about randomness. So far I've only written unsafeMkSignature where you provide your own nonce for testing purposes. I've postponed finding a good random generator for now since at the moment I'm only trying to verify signatures.
1453 2011-04-24 12:43:14 <roconnor> I wonly wrote unsafeMkSignature to try and test my signature verification.
1454 2011-04-24 12:43:55 <ArtForz> yea
1455 2011-04-24 12:44:32 * BlueMatt is so close to bitcoin.exe building on linux...damn boost not linking
1456 2011-04-24 12:44:49 <roconnor> .exe on linux?
1457 2011-04-24 12:45:02 <BlueMatt> roconnor: yea as in cross compiling
1458 2011-04-24 12:45:02 <sipa> mingw?
1459 2011-04-24 12:45:05 <roconnor> :O
1460 2011-04-24 12:45:05 <BlueMatt> yea
1461 2011-04-24 12:45:42 <ArtForz> a long while ago I implemented a simple ECDLP solver, iirc modified tortoise+hare w/ distinguished points
1462 2011-04-24 12:45:55 <roconnor> ECDLP?
1463 2011-04-24 12:46:01 <TD> BlueMatt: you don't have a windows dev environment?
1464 2011-04-24 12:46:10 <ArtForz> Elliptic Cureve Discrete Logarithm Problem
1465 2011-04-24 12:46:17 <roconnor> :)
1466 2011-04-24 12:46:25 <BlueMatt> TD: I do but it always causes problem
1467 2011-04-24 12:46:52 <roconnor> ArtForz: does that solve discrete logs on finite fields or tries to find n such that n * p1 = p2 ?
1468 2011-04-24 12:47:02 <ArtForz> the latter
1469 2011-04-24 12:47:04 <BlueMatt> TD: when I build bitcoin from clean install of winserver 2003, it doesnt close right if it receives a sigterm
1470 2011-04-24 12:47:12 <BlueMatt> TD: on win7 gui has odd artifacts
1471 2011-04-24 12:47:18 <roconnor> ArtForz: did it work well?
1472 2011-04-24 12:47:29 <TD> i think the win7 gui artifacts are probably a bug in bitcoin :(
1473 2011-04-24 12:47:31 <BlueMatt> TD: plus I'm looking at building win bitcoin deterministically
1474 2011-04-24 12:47:37 <roconnor> ArtForz: are you breaking peoples private keys on bitcoind :D
1475 2011-04-24 12:47:38 <TD> that nobody has tracked down yet because we're all mac/linux users
1476 2011-04-24 12:47:43 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah that'd be great
1477 2011-04-24 12:47:48 <ArtForz> it sucessfully broke a toy sig using a 64-bit prime field ;)
1478 2011-04-24 12:47:55 <roconnor> :)
1479 2011-04-24 12:48:25 <ArtForz> around the same time also factored a rsa448 for fun
1480 2011-04-24 12:49:31 <ArtForz> using ggnfs and a cluster of P3s
1481 2011-04-24 12:50:47 <sipa> hmm, signature scripts contain both the pubkey and the sig itself?
1482 2011-04-24 12:50:58 <ArtForz> depends
1483 2011-04-24 12:51:10 <ArtForz> for output-to-addr, yes
1484 2011-04-24 12:51:23 <ArtForz> for output-to-pubkey, no
1485 2011-04-24 12:51:49 <sipa> i just read that pubkeys can be derived from a signature
1486 2011-04-24 12:52:09 <ArtForz> ?
1487 2011-04-24 12:52:31 <TD> they can be derived from the private key
1488 2011-04-24 12:52:35 <ArtForz> well, you need the pubkey to verify the signature
1489 2011-04-24 12:52:42 <TD> a scriptSig contains <signature> <public key>
1490 2011-04-24 12:52:58 <ArtForz> for tx-to-addr, yes
1491 2011-04-24 12:53:00 <sipa> section 4.1.6 of sec1-v2.pdf
1492 2011-04-24 12:53:06 <sipa> Given an ECDSA signature (r, s) and EC domain parameters, it is generally possible to determine
1493 2011-04-24 12:53:09 <sipa> the public key Q, at least to within a small number of choices.
1494 2011-04-24 12:53:18 <TD> hmm.
1495 2011-04-24 12:53:26 <TD> but does that help you in any way ?
1496 2011-04-24 12:53:31 Marcel has joined
1497 2011-04-24 12:53:56 <sipa> you know the hash of the public key
1498 2011-04-24 12:54:18 <sipa> so even if there are a few possible pubkeys for that signature you received, you can verify that at least one matches
1499 2011-04-24 12:55:48 <sipa> so, i believe we could do with 64-byte txins (+ some operation bytes) instead of 173-bytes
1500 2011-04-24 12:56:11 <TD> i suppose it depends what it means by "small". bitcoin scalability isn't just store but primarily cpu
1501 2011-04-24 12:56:21 <TD> shrinking the block chain at a cost of much large tx verify costs might not be worth it
1502 2011-04-24 12:57:02 <sipa> let me read the protocol
1503 2011-04-24 12:57:07 <sipa> *algorithm
1504 2011-04-24 12:58:45 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1505 2011-04-24 12:59:01 LtBrenton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1506 2011-04-24 12:59:10 <sipa> looks like it would do at most 4 iterations, and usually only one
1507 2011-04-24 12:59:31 LtBrenton has joined
1508 2011-04-24 12:59:39 <sipa> and at most 2 solutions for the parameters used in bitcoin
1509 2011-04-24 13:00:26 pierre` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1511 2011-04-24 13:00:29 danlucraft1 has joined
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1513 2011-04-24 13:00:33 <TD> by iteration you mean an ECDSA verify?
1514 2011-04-24 13:00:36 <TD> or some other algorithm
1515 2011-04-24 13:00:36 <roconnor> sipa: do you have a link to how to generate the public key from the signature?
1516 2011-04-24 13:00:56 <sipa> roconnor: lookup sec1-v2.pdf, page 11
1517 2011-04-24 13:00:58 netxshare has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1518 2011-04-24 13:01:39 <sipa> TD: i'm not familiar yet with the compressed point specification
1519 2011-04-24 13:01:42 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1520 2011-04-24 13:01:43 <sipa> and it seems that is used
1521 2011-04-24 13:01:49 netxshare has joined
1522 2011-04-24 13:01:59 <sipa> roconnor: page 48, sorry
1523 2011-04-24 13:02:24 <necrodearia> Can someone place a header on the Bitcoin wiki similar to Wikipedia does? With http://carrot.witcoin.com/p/1317/Please-read-A-personal-appeal-from-Mr--Vegetable ?
1524 2011-04-24 13:02:35 x6763 has joined
1525 2011-04-24 13:03:48 <TD> i think bitcoin already uses compressed point representations from what i recall (vaguely)
1526 2011-04-24 13:04:14 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1527 2011-04-24 13:05:13 <sacarlson> cool I just discovered a way to make a quick jump in the value change in minning, I have a new setting that after block 150 that the minning return goes from 500 weeds down to .001 weeds + fee's for each new minned block found
1528 2011-04-24 13:05:27 <sipa> TD: no, it doesn't, it seems
1529 2011-04-24 13:05:32 <roconnor> TD: bitcoin does not used compressed point representations
1530 2011-04-24 13:05:46 <sipa> compressed points would be 33 bytes, uncompressed points 65
1531 2011-04-24 13:05:55 <roconnor> though I have been meaning to test if it accepts compressed points
1532 2011-04-24 13:06:20 <roconnor> sipa: we should add a new op-code for public key recoveryhttp://www.secg.org/download/aid-780/sec1-v2.pdf
1533 2011-04-24 13:06:25 <roconnor> ah oops
1534 2011-04-24 13:06:27 <sipa> roconnor: could you test if you can implement that pubkey-recovery algorithm?
1535 2011-04-24 13:06:44 <roconnor> sipa: I will later. I'm headin to to enjoy the afternoon soon.
1536 2011-04-24 13:06:49 <sipa> roconnor: sure :D
1537 2011-04-24 13:07:04 <TD> enjoy :)
1538 2011-04-24 13:08:11 <roconnor> er GF wants to take a shower. so that gives me some time now :D
1539 2011-04-24 13:08:24 <sipa> i assume you're not talking about a galois field
1540 2011-04-24 13:08:30 <roconnor> *lol*
1541 2011-04-24 13:08:53 <sipa> doesn't seem openssl has an implementation of the pubkey recovery system
1542 2011-04-24 13:09:27 <roconnor> intresting. Key recovery requires the message hash
1543 2011-04-24 13:09:34 <roconnor> in addition to the signature
1544 2011-04-24 13:10:00 <sacarlson> and sorry all for the false alarm about my theory of being able to manipulate the value at a new minned block, I was able to verify on my private net that it can't be done
1545 2011-04-24 13:10:12 <sipa> sacarlson: i wasn't worried :)
1546 2011-04-24 13:10:17 <roconnor> sacarlson: I don't think many of us were worried :D
1547 2011-04-24 13:10:29 <sipa> roconnor: let me try to implement it in bitcoin's key.
1548 2011-04-24 13:10:32 <sipa> h
1549 2011-04-24 13:10:51 <roconnor> bitcoin's key?
1550 2011-04-24 13:11:03 <sipa> key.h :)
1551 2011-04-24 13:11:35 sethsethseth has joined
1552 2011-04-24 13:13:17 taco_the_paco has joined
1553 2011-04-24 13:13:23 <drgr33n> anyone here using the radeon GD 6970 for mining here ?
1554 2011-04-24 13:13:25 taco_the_paco has quit (Changing host)
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1558 2011-04-24 13:15:28 <TD> sipa: it would be useful to implement several optimizations at once (pubkey recovery, compressed points, losing the DER goop). it'd take a long time before they could be safely used without kicking too many users onto a fork of the chain, but the savings might be pretty significant
1559 2011-04-24 13:15:39 <TD> (when the flag day eventually comes)
1560 2011-04-24 13:16:03 sethsethseth has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1561 2011-04-24 13:16:16 <sipa> TD: where are uncompressed points used currently?
1562 2011-04-24 13:16:20 <sipa> only in the pubkey itself, no?
1563 2011-04-24 13:16:39 <TD> i'm not sure. i wrote the code to deal with the ecdsa stuff months ago and forgot the details
1564 2011-04-24 13:16:42 tabsa has joined
1565 2011-04-24 13:16:48 <TD> i guess in the pubkeys, yes
1566 2011-04-24 13:16:55 <TD> but aren't signatures made up of two points also?
1567 2011-04-24 13:17:07 <sipa> two coordinates, but i don't think those can be compressed
1568 2011-04-24 13:17:16 <sipa> that would make sense information-theory-wise
1569 2011-04-24 13:17:54 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1570 2011-04-24 13:18:00 <sipa> that you can recover a 256-bit data unit (compressed pubkey) from any combination of a 256-bit signature and 256-bit hash
1571 2011-04-24 13:18:48 <roconnor> TD: does the bitcoin client accept uncompressed keys?
1572 2011-04-24 13:19:03 <roconnor> all I know is that it doesn't generate uncompressed points.
1573 2011-04-24 13:19:12 <TD> i think sipa is right in that it only uses uncompressed points today. whether it accepts them or not, you'd have to check the openssl api docs
1574 2011-04-24 13:19:31 <roconnor> I put my money on it accepting compressed keys
1575 2011-04-24 13:19:45 <sipa> i'm quite sure it will accept them
1576 2011-04-24 13:20:01 <roconnor> heh, maybe I'll make my client produce them :P
1577 2011-04-24 13:20:01 <sipa> i can't recall having seen any length-checks in bitcoin itself
1578 2011-04-24 13:22:28 <TD> ah yes
1579 2011-04-24 13:22:29 <TD> it does
1580 2011-04-24 13:22:34 <TD> http://codesearch.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#XrPblB9f5NU/crypto/ec/ecp_smpl.c&q=oct2point&exact_package=git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/external/openssl.git&l=935
1581 2011-04-24 13:22:44 <TD> enc_len = (form == POINT_CONVERSION_COMPRESSED) ? 1 + field_len : 1 + 2*field_len;
1582 2011-04-24 13:23:29 <BlueMatt> arg, boost 1.43.0 doesnt build right and after that you run into the threading issues (as specified in the build-msw.txt file)
1583 2011-04-24 13:23:42 <sipa> i love the idea: any combination of a 256-bit hash and a 256-bit privkey results in a single 512-bit signature... no information wasted
1584 2011-04-24 13:23:53 <BlueMatt> even though those bugs are marked fixed, they are still popping up on the latest boost trunk
1585 2011-04-24 13:23:56 <BlueMatt> wtf boost?
1586 2011-04-24 13:24:40 tabsa has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
1587 2011-04-24 13:24:41 warpi has joined
1588 2011-04-24 13:24:46 <TD> the openssl api is so ridiculous
1589 2011-04-24 13:25:14 <TD> i think it's possible to make it generate compressed points by retrieving the EC_GROUP from a newly created EC_KEY then using EC_GROUP_set_point_conversion_form
1590 2011-04-24 13:25:49 <sipa> i'll try it :)
1591 2011-04-24 13:25:55 <drgr33n> ty sipa !! diablominer was slow to start around 220Mh/s and now its sitting at 250/260 on my HD5830 :D
1592 2011-04-24 13:26:27 Zarutian has joined
1593 2011-04-24 13:30:55 <TD> i might try in bitcoinj too
1594 2011-04-24 13:31:12 <TD> it seems that their public api doesn't let you create compressed pubkeys, though the underlying classes do seem to support it. huh.
1595 2011-04-24 13:31:25 <roconnor> sipa: key recovery works
1596 2011-04-24 13:31:32 <roconnor> *EcDsaSecp256k1> pub `elem` (keyRecovery hash sig)
1597 2011-04-24 13:31:34 <roconnor> True
1598 2011-04-24 13:31:48 <roconnor> sipa: at least it works on my one random sample
1599 2011-04-24 13:32:12 <sipa> void EC_KEY_set_conv_form(EC_KEY *, point_conversion_form_t);
1600 2011-04-24 13:32:25 <sipa> TD: i think that's what i need
1601 2011-04-24 13:32:32 <TD> ah ha
1602 2011-04-24 13:32:42 <TD> yeah that sounds better
1603 2011-04-24 13:33:08 <sipa> now, addresses are still defined as the hash of the full uncompressed pubkey
1604 2011-04-24 13:33:14 <roconnor> sipa: what was the idea behind using key recovery again?
1605 2011-04-24 13:33:49 <TD> to shrink the size of transactions
1606 2011-04-24 13:33:58 <roconnor> how would it work?
1607 2011-04-24 13:34:01 <sipa> roconnor: currently txin's contain both the full (uncompressed) pubkey, and the signature, 768 bits together + a lot of overhead in encoding
1608 2011-04-24 13:34:15 <sipa> wait, 1024 bits
1609 2011-04-24 13:34:21 <roconnor> sipa: for mailbox transfers?
1610 2011-04-24 13:34:29 <sipa> mailbox transfers?
1611 2011-04-24 13:34:47 <TD> weirdly it seems bouncy castle understands how to parse compressed points, and how to encode them, but it doesn't let you convert a point from one form to another. oh well, i have already modified it so no big deal to make further changes :)
1612 2011-04-24 13:34:49 <sipa> the txin's, the inputs in transactions in the block chains
1613 2011-04-24 13:34:55 <TD> roconnor: for standard transactions
1614 2011-04-24 13:35:14 <TD> roconnor: TX output looks like <opcodes and stuff> <hash of public key of receiver>
1615 2011-04-24 13:35:23 <TD> TX input is <signature> <public key>
1616 2011-04-24 13:35:27 <sipa> in theory this means we can have 512-bit txins instead of 1024-bit txins
1617 2011-04-24 13:35:33 <roconnor> sipa: s/mailbox/bitcoin address
1618 2011-04-24 13:35:37 <TD> yeah
1619 2011-04-24 13:35:40 <sipa> roconnor: in that case, yes
1620 2011-04-24 13:35:41 <roconnor> sorry I haven't got my terminology straight yet
1621 2011-04-24 13:36:08 <roconnor> sipa: ah I see
1622 2011-04-24 13:36:24 <roconnor> sipa: the scriptSig contains both the sig and the pubKey
1623 2011-04-24 13:36:32 <roconnor> but as we now know, pubKey is more or less redudent
1624 2011-04-24 13:36:50 <TD> exactly.
1625 2011-04-24 13:36:50 <sipa> exactly
1626 2011-04-24 13:36:52 <roconnor> since for a given key there are something like at most 2 pubkeys that it could correspond to
1627 2011-04-24 13:36:59 <TD> satoshi worried a lot about the size of the block chain, but he wasn't an EC expert
1628 2011-04-24 13:37:09 <TD> i'm sure he would have gone for these optimizations if he'd known about them
1629 2011-04-24 13:37:17 <TD> roconnor: s/key/signature/
1630 2011-04-24 13:37:47 d4de has joined
1631 2011-04-24 13:37:58 <roconnor> it's too bad there are two pontential public keys because otherwise it would have been easy to add a new recoverPubKey opcode
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1633 2011-04-24 13:40:24 * roconnor didn't know about key recovery either
1634 2011-04-24 13:40:28 <TD> i think there'd need to be an OP_RECOVERPUBKEY opcode anyway. it'd just push both possibilities (where there are two) onto the stack
1635 2011-04-24 13:40:34 <roconnor> granted I'm not an EC expert :D
1636 2011-04-24 13:40:36 <TD> scriptSig would just be <sig>
1637 2011-04-24 13:40:50 <roconnor> yep and then scriptPubKey woudl be something complicated :D
1638 2011-04-24 13:41:42 <roconnor> TD: I'd want to double check that there are only 2 possiblities. In my code there in principle could be upto 4, but I'm pretty sure that two are always impossible.
1639 2011-04-24 13:41:45 <TD> yeah it's a pretty great discovery by sipa
1640 2011-04-24 13:42:56 <sipa> if i read the algorithm well, there can be no more than 2
1641 2011-04-24 13:43:12 <sipa> TD: just accidentally stumbled upon it when reading that pdf
1642 2011-04-24 13:43:36 <roconnor> sipa: ther is for j from 0 to 1 (since h is 1 in our curve)
1643 2011-04-24 13:43:43 <sipa> indeed
1644 2011-04-24 13:43:46 <sipa> ah, there is R and -R
1645 2011-04-24 13:43:49 <roconnor> sipa: then there is for k from 1 to 2
1646 2011-04-24 13:43:53 <roconnor> in the inner loop
1647 2011-04-24 13:44:06 <sipa> wait, what field is used?
1648 2011-04-24 13:44:12 <roconnor> but I still think that two will be cut out by 1.3
1649 2011-04-24 13:44:29 <sipa> it's a power-of-two field, right?
1650 2011-04-24 13:44:53 <sipa> aren't R and -R identical in that case?
1651 2011-04-24 13:44:56 <roconnor> sipa: F_p where p = 2^256 - 2^32 - 2^9 - 2^8 - 2^7 - 2^6 - 2^4 - 1
1652 2011-04-24 13:46:00 taco_the_paco has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1653 2011-04-24 13:47:28 <roconnor> so R and -R are different
1654 2011-04-24 13:48:14 <sipa> sure?
1655 2011-04-24 13:48:19 <roconnor> sipa: but I think only one of r and r + n will be a valid x
1656 2011-04-24 13:48:23 <roconnor> sipa: quite sure
1657 2011-04-24 13:49:16 <roconnor> actually maybe I'm wrong about r and r + n
1658 2011-04-24 13:49:24 <roconnor> maybe there could be 4 possibilities
1659 2011-04-24 13:49:30 <roconnor> although it would be rare
1660 2011-04-24 13:51:03 * roconnor has an error in his key recovory algorithm
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1664 2011-04-24 13:51:56 <sipa> roconnor: in GF(2^n), -x == x
1665 2011-04-24 13:52:05 <sipa> and x+x == 0
1666 2011-04-24 13:52:19 <TD> hmm the scriptPubKey would end up being fairly inefficient
1667 2011-04-24 13:52:26 <TD> quite a few opcodes to manipulate the stack, at least the way i was writing it
1668 2011-04-24 13:52:33 <roconnor> sipa: yes, but we are in F_p where p is a large odd prime
1669 2011-04-24 13:52:36 <TD> if there'd be a new opcode anyway, might as well create one superop that does everything
1670 2011-04-24 13:52:49 <sipa> roconnor: oh, right
1671 2011-04-24 13:53:12 <TD> <sig> <address> OP_CHECKSPEND or something
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1673 2011-04-24 13:53:41 <roconnor> TD: I'm mostly convinced that there could be upto 4 keys to check in some cases.
1674 2011-04-24 13:53:54 <TD> in that case definitely want a superop
1675 2011-04-24 13:53:55 <roconnor> but that would be relatively rare
1676 2011-04-24 13:54:12 <TD> the script language is nice, but we do lose some efficiency from the fact that scriptPubKeys are quite complex yet almost always the same
1677 2011-04-24 13:55:33 <roconnor> TD: in less than 10^(-38) cases there will be 4 to check instead of 2. *l*
1678 2011-04-24 13:55:45 <TD> huh, wow
1679 2011-04-24 13:55:59 <roconnor> less than (p - n) / n of the cases...
1680 2011-04-24 13:56:14 <roconnor> still, it is possible :D
1681 2011-04-24 13:56:30 <sipa> roconnor: that's line 1.4 of the algorithm at work, right?
1682 2011-04-24 13:56:31 <roconnor> this is according to my non-expert recoking
1683 2011-04-24 13:56:55 <roconnor> sipa: no, more like line 1.1
1684 2011-04-24 13:57:24 <roconnor> sipa: the deal is that r is generated from the x component of some point P.
1685 2011-04-24 13:57:28 DuoSRX has joined
1686 2011-04-24 13:57:37 <roconnor> the x component is some value in F_p
1687 2011-04-24 13:57:55 <roconnor> but this x component is taken mod n to produce some value r in F_n
1688 2011-04-24 13:58:13 <roconnor> taking a value in F_p mod n isn't always injective
1689 2011-04-24 13:58:32 <roconnor> for some large values of x, it will wrap around an produce small values in F_n
1690 2011-04-24 13:59:00 <roconnor> those are those rare cases where you need to recover two candidate points from r.
1691 2011-04-24 13:59:30 <roconnor> and then each candidate point generates two possible public keys in accordance with 1.6
1692 2011-04-24 13:59:36 <roconnor> at least that is my understanding
1693 2011-04-24 14:00:10 <sacarlson> the cool thing I have learned is that you can create new rules in different network specs for different inflation rate rules, I love it if I can secure smaller networks
1694 2011-04-24 14:02:06 <sacarlson> and I"m also looking at the base58.h code for the address decode encode, I want to add a new decode encode ontop of that to connect to new networks
1695 2011-04-24 14:02:43 <sipa> using compressed keys may not work out of the box
1696 2011-04-24 14:02:53 <roconnor> sipa: oh?
1697 2011-04-24 14:03:05 <sipa> since the bitcoin mostly passes vchPubKey around, instead of a CKey
1698 2011-04-24 14:03:07 <sacarlson> to add maybe a 4 byte human readable header in the lead of the address that point to what network the client or human needs to transact on it
1699 2011-04-24 14:03:22 <sipa> so it will not effectively parse the key when reading it
1700 2011-04-24 14:03:28 <roconnor> vchPubKey is the encoded version?
1701 2011-04-24 14:03:37 <sipa> maybe it will work if you just switch to only compressed keys
1702 2011-04-24 14:03:47 <sipa> where the address is defined as the hash of the compressed key
1703 2011-04-24 14:05:00 <sipa> hmm, maybe not
1704 2011-04-24 14:05:07 <sipa> CheckSig passes it through CKey
1705 2011-04-24 14:05:41 <roconnor> okay I'm heading out now. Let me know how things develop :)
1706 2011-04-24 14:05:53 <roconnor> TD, sipa: great chatting with you
1707 2011-04-24 14:06:34 hozer has joined
1708 2011-04-24 14:06:45 <TD> have a nice day
1709 2011-04-24 14:06:54 * TD is on his balcony enjoying the sun also :-)
1710 2011-04-24 14:07:14 <hozer> holy market expansion batman .. I go away for a week and get a job and the price doubles
1711 2011-04-24 14:07:22 <TD> sacarlson: addresses already contain a version number. you could just pick an unused code
1712 2011-04-24 14:07:33 <TD> sacarlson: or not use that address format for your own network.
1713 2011-04-24 14:08:01 <sacarlson> TD: yes but I want more than just one code I wan a human readable code
1714 2011-04-24 14:08:19 <sacarlson> td: like IBM or SCOTTY
1715 2011-04-24 14:08:45 <TD> for addresses?
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1717 2011-04-24 14:08:59 <sacarlson> TD: just the header part the leader
1718 2011-04-24 14:09:04 <sacarlson> yes
1719 2011-04-24 14:09:44 <sipa> ok, i have a patched bitcoin that uses compressed pubkeys
1720 2011-04-24 14:09:49 <sipa> anyone want to test? :)
1721 2011-04-24 14:09:58 <TD> niceness sipa
1722 2011-04-24 14:10:00 <sacarlson> if detected with the new single byte in the lead it will auto go to the new address decoder
1723 2011-04-24 14:10:15 * TD is in the middle of finishing block chain re-orgs and doesn't want to get too distracted with new toys though
1724 2011-04-24 14:10:16 <TD> sorry
1725 2011-04-24 14:10:25 <sacarlson> sipa: how do I test it?
1726 2011-04-24 14:11:28 <sacarlson> sipa: being I am in the lower educated I think that might fall into my hands with all my time
1727 2011-04-24 14:12:04 <TD> sipa: post the patch and i'll try it out when i'm done with this
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1730 2011-04-24 14:13:12 <sipa> sacarlson: i didn't expect anyone to test it except myself, but if you want to: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/compressedpubkeys
1731 2011-04-24 14:13:34 <sipa> don't use anywhere but on testnet, it may do awful things to your coins :)
1732 2011-04-24 14:13:43 * BlueMatt has a working bitcoind.exe that compiled under linux, but wx is failing to link properly
1733 2011-04-24 14:14:00 <TD> hehe
1734 2011-04-24 14:14:30 Marcel has left ()
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1736 2011-04-24 14:15:04 <BlueMatt> and it closes properly (unlike the winserv2003-compiled version)
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1740 2011-04-24 14:15:27 <sacarlson> sipa: it will be an honour, and I keep my real coins backed up
1741 2011-04-24 14:16:31 <sacarlson> I've already managed to destroy a 12 hour collection of testnet minning so I now know how dangers it can be
1742 2011-04-24 14:16:47 <sipa> it seems to work in a testnet-in-a-box
1743 2011-04-24 14:16:59 <sipa> but there both clients are patched of course
1744 2011-04-24 14:17:31 <sipa> well, let's try it otherwise
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1747 2011-04-24 14:21:53 <sipa> sacarlson: doesn't seem to work
1748 2011-04-24 14:21:57 <sipa> i'll try to fix it later
1749 2011-04-24 14:22:34 <sacarlson> sipa: ok well I didn't get started on it yet
1750 2011-04-24 14:22:54 <sacarlson> sipa: this is the end of my day here at 9:18pm
1751 2011-04-24 14:23:36 taco_the_paco has joined
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1755 2011-04-24 14:30:19 <pirrr> ;;bc,mtgox
1756 2011-04-24 14:30:20 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.95,"low":1.3901,"vol":58975,"buy":1.69,"sell":1.7,"last":1.7}}
1757 2011-04-24 14:31:14 <TD> sacarlson: whereabouts are you ?
1758 2011-04-24 14:31:17 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1759 2011-04-24 14:31:32 <sacarlson> td: I'm always here man
1760 2011-04-24 14:31:42 <sacarlson> td: I"m in thailand
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1772 2011-04-24 14:58:15 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * r4deb7974041e intersango/ (util.php withdraw.php): added contact details for intl_withdraw and rejected status. http://tinyurl.com/43j68nb
1773 2011-04-24 14:58:16 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * ra23106a09fed intersango/cron/bankd/parse_deposits.php: new format for bank statements. http://tinyurl.com/3buobcf
1774 2011-04-24 14:58:26 taco_the_paco has joined
1775 2011-04-24 14:59:55 Greek_o_nikos has joined
1776 2011-04-24 15:00:20 <Greek_o_nikos> Does anyone know how to gracefully shut down the program cpuminer 0.8.1?
1777 2011-04-24 15:01:37 <Greek_o_nikos> or is it suggested to just use CTRL+C?
1778 2011-04-24 15:01:56 Stellar has joined
1779 2011-04-24 15:04:13 <Greek_o_nikos> (on 10.10)
1780 2011-04-24 15:05:23 justmoon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1782 2011-04-24 15:06:33 kisom_dev has joined
1783 2011-04-24 15:07:18 <grbgout> Greek_o_nikos: should just be ^C
1784 2011-04-24 15:07:18 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1785 2011-04-24 15:07:48 <Greek_o_nikos> thx
1786 2011-04-24 15:07:56 Greek_o_nikos has left ("Leaving")
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1795 2011-04-24 15:18:20 <programme> jgarzik: i had to setup a new linux box using opensuse 11 to compile correctly pushpool
1796 2011-04-24 15:18:35 <programme> jgarzik: i installed all the deps there and it worked
1797 2011-04-24 15:18:57 <programme> jgarzik: it was giving trouble on centos 5.5 it was asking me to upgrade the whole glibc to 2.9
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1824 2011-04-24 16:13:17 <patapper> right now does the bitcoin network accept nonstandard txes at all?
1825 2011-04-24 16:14:26 jav_ has joined
1826 2011-04-24 16:14:31 <patapper> because it looks like the official client doesn't as CTransaction::IsStandard requires all the outputs to be CScript::IsStandard
1827 2011-04-24 16:15:15 <patapper> which requires the script to match a template at Solver() in script.cpp
1828 2011-04-24 16:15:34 <luke-jr> patapper: you need to connect to the Free relay network
1829 2011-04-24 16:16:06 <luke-jr> and probably spend a fee
1830 2011-04-24 16:16:09 <luke-jr> -addnode=173.242.112.53
1831 2011-04-24 16:16:30 <patapper> so only some miners will include it in their blocks?
1832 2011-04-24 16:16:31 <luke-jr> my minimum fee is 0.00004096 BTC or 0.00008196 BTC (I forget which)
1833 2011-04-24 16:16:34 <luke-jr> right
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1835 2011-04-24 16:16:57 <TD> patapper: the latest release disables IsStandard on testnet
1836 2011-04-24 16:17:00 <luke-jr> and to communicate your transaction to the miners, you need to add that node as a peer
1837 2011-04-24 16:17:10 <TD> so as people upgrade their testnet nodes you will be able to play around with them there
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1839 2011-04-24 16:18:11 <patapper> but I'm reading CTransaction::AcceptToMemoryPool on github and it doesn't appear to access fTestNet at all
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1841 2011-04-24 16:19:58 <TD> oh sorry
1842 2011-04-24 16:20:02 <TD> i thought it was merged but it's still pending
1843 2011-04-24 16:20:03 <TD> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/173
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1847 2011-04-24 16:21:52 <patapper> testnet isn't that difficult to mine anyway, right? I could just mint my own block
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1849 2011-04-24 16:22:02 <TD> there is a testnet-in-a-box
1850 2011-04-24 16:22:05 <luke-jr> â¦
1851 2011-04-24 16:22:09 <patapper> before that pull request goes through I mean
1852 2011-04-24 16:22:12 <TD> you can run a 2-node testnet locally with that patch
1853 2011-04-24 16:22:16 <TD> then you can do whatever you like
1854 2011-04-24 16:22:28 <TD> and yes if you have a gpu you can mine blocks very fast on the local testnet
1855 2011-04-24 16:24:00 <sacarlson> TD: you don't need a gpu to mine a private net even my slow 600kb/s will probly pull a block about every 10 min if it's the only minner
1856 2011-04-24 16:24:25 <TD> it takes longer than 10 mins but yes you can cpu mine too
1857 2011-04-24 16:24:32 <TD> still for testing it's much more convenient to have it be instant :-)
1858 2011-04-24 16:24:43 <TD> that said you can tell if the transactions are accepted anyway just by looking at the logs
1859 2011-04-24 16:24:47 <BlueMatt> anyone else seen a compile error when USE_UPNP is not defined as in pull 184?
1860 2011-04-24 16:25:13 php_doctor_who is now known as CodePHP
1861 2011-04-24 16:25:17 <sacarlson> td: well with a fresh block with difficulty 1.00000 almost anything should mine
1862 2011-04-24 16:26:29 <patapper> even my toaster? XD
1863 2011-04-24 16:26:49 <patapper> I'm looking at the escrow system somebody mentioned on the forums
1864 2011-04-24 16:27:16 echelon has joined
1865 2011-04-24 16:27:24 <TD> which one specifically?
1866 2011-04-24 16:27:25 <TD> there are a few
1867 2011-04-24 16:27:41 <sacarlson> patapper: is this the escrow over p2p?
1868 2011-04-24 16:28:25 <patapper> where the txout has a special script, such that the potential receiver has a certain address AND has a secret (set by the sender)
1869 2011-04-24 16:28:44 <patapper> so the coins are either claimed by the recipient (at the sender's will) or are lost in the ether
1870 2011-04-24 16:29:04 <TD> burning coins isn't good. i proposed a slightly different escrow system using CHECKMULTISIG
1871 2011-04-24 16:29:28 <TD> you nominate a mediator ahead of time. tx1 spends your coins such that they can go either to the address of the seller, or to an address owned by the mediator
1872 2011-04-24 16:29:36 <TD> only you can choose which address gets the coins but it has to be one of those two
1873 2011-04-24 16:29:44 <TD> so the coins are never burned in the case of a dispute
1874 2011-04-24 16:29:52 <patapper> I figured out the necessary script, just looking at the changes
1875 2011-04-24 16:29:55 <TD> (coins are a finite resource after all)
1876 2011-04-24 16:29:56 <da2ce7> TD, there is no economical issue with burning coins (other than the loss from the owner of the coins)
1877 2011-04-24 16:30:19 <da2ce7> it is like a donation to the rest of the bitcoin economy.
1878 2011-04-24 16:30:30 <TD> yes yes. the entire economy can run on one coin. bitcoin is designed to be a stable currency, not one where lots of coins get thrown away pointlessly
1879 2011-04-24 16:30:37 <patapper> I would have difficulty trusting the mediator in that situation (from the position of the seller)
1880 2011-04-24 16:30:51 <TD> why? if you, the seller, gets to pick the mediator there is no problem right
1881 2011-04-24 16:30:52 <BlueMatt> da2ce7: to an extend, but as TD said, you shouldnt just throw them away for no reason
1882 2011-04-24 16:31:07 joepie91 has quit (laptop!~joepie91@s514735fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl|Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1883 2011-04-24 16:31:14 <patapper> it wouldn't be "lots" of coins because nobody has any incentive to not follow through
1884 2011-04-24 16:31:23 <TD> if you want to burn the coins the second address can just be all zeros or something
1885 2011-04-24 16:31:26 <BlueMatt> instead of losing coins, figure out a script to give them to charity
1886 2011-04-24 16:31:39 <TD> right, this is what ClearCoin does
1887 2011-04-24 16:31:45 <da2ce7> BlueMatt, if you are willing to use such an escrow, then you should be able to... I would prefer to give my coins to charity.
1888 2011-04-24 16:31:52 <TD> it's not really any harder to do one-of-n outputs
1889 2011-04-24 16:32:19 <patapper> if you are willing to use such an escrow, you're probably also willing to use ClearCoin
1890 2011-04-24 16:32:30 <patapper> so I don't see much point in implementing it
1891 2011-04-24 16:32:41 <da2ce7> If I bought 1000 BTC every day and killed them, I would figutavely be donating to the bitcoin community.
1892 2011-04-24 16:32:42 <TD> because in the common case of no dispute you don't have to trust the third party
1893 2011-04-24 16:33:04 <TD> da2ce7: broken window fallacy
1894 2011-04-24 16:33:20 <da2ce7> TD, there needs to be something of value lost...
1895 2011-04-24 16:33:24 <Kiba> does not give us moar goods and services!
1896 2011-04-24 16:33:44 <da2ce7> Kiba, it is the same a saving them and not every spending them
1897 2011-04-24 16:33:57 <patapper> TD: no, da2ce7 is right. it's like the baker breaking his own window every day as a donation to the glazier industry
1898 2011-04-24 16:34:19 <programme> is mining in a pool much more slower than solo mining?
1899 2011-04-24 16:34:26 <sacarlson> I would also like an escrow that a group would all put in shares and when all have contributed at some point they could all vote to distribute all the poll to a single party
1900 2011-04-24 16:34:47 <patapper> programme: no, only a few % slower, depending on the fees the pool admin collects
1901 2011-04-24 16:35:09 joepie91 has joined
1902 2011-04-24 16:35:15 <programme> patapper: there isnt no protocol overload to talk with the pool ?
1903 2011-04-24 16:35:22 <TD> patapper: it's like breaking windows on the grounds that it makes jobs and is thus a gift to the community. destroying coins doesn't really "increase value", it just decreases the resolution of the system. nobody actually gets wealthier.
1904 2011-04-24 16:35:43 <TD> you might feel like you did, but you really didn't
1905 2011-04-24 16:35:53 <sacarlson> if not more than 50% of the group failed to vote then over a window of time of say 2 months or so the money would be returned to the original parties
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1907 2011-04-24 16:35:55 <patapper> TD: he didn't say everybody gets wealthire. he said the bitcoin community would get wealthier. (presumably excluding himself)
1908 2011-04-24 16:36:14 Guest10739 has joined
1909 2011-04-24 16:36:34 <TD> ok, the bitcoin community doesn't get wealthier either. wealth goods and services, not coins.
1910 2011-04-24 16:36:51 <patapper> sacarlson: the scripting system has no time support... yet
1911 2011-04-24 16:37:14 <TD> there cannot be any time support beyond the already existing nLockTime
1912 2011-04-24 16:37:18 <da2ce7> TD, it is a transfer of my wealth to everyone who has bitcoins. There is no loss of good and services.
1913 2011-04-24 16:37:19 <sacarlson> patapper: I thought our whole system ran on time stamps?
1914 2011-04-24 16:37:26 FabianB_ has joined
1915 2011-04-24 16:37:42 <Kiba> da2ce7 is donating his purchasing power to the community...
1916 2011-04-24 16:37:59 <Kiba> which lead to a supply shortage?
1917 2011-04-24 16:38:12 <TD> da2ce7: and there's no gain either. you're just moving numbers around.
1918 2011-04-24 16:38:14 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1919 2011-04-24 16:38:30 <TD> anyway, follow this proposal through to the logical conclusion .... the system ends up with no coins because everyone threw them away in disputes
1920 2011-04-24 16:38:55 <da2ce7> TD, everyone would be trading on 1/1000000 th of a coin.
1921 2011-04-24 16:38:55 <patapper> lol!
1922 2011-04-24 16:39:38 <patapper> more like, the world bitcoin supply would reduce by ~1% a year due to disputes. making them rarer, more valuable, and lowering prices (in terms of BTC)
1923 2011-04-24 16:40:00 <patapper> could be more or less than 1%. doesn't really matter. the market will adjust
1924 2011-04-24 16:40:27 <TD> is there any reason at all why it's a good idea to destroy coins?
1925 2011-04-24 16:40:55 <chmod755> lol
1926 2011-04-24 16:41:01 <Blitzboom> sure, because it makes everyone with coins wealthier
1927 2011-04-24 16:41:04 <da2ce7> TD, it is more subtle than that, I spent my wealth on lots of sexy parties insted of bitcoin. The bitcoin community would be worse off either way. If I invested in bitcoin, then used my bitcoin for stupid endevors (like sexy parties) then there would be a economic loss alos.
1928 2011-04-24 16:41:07 <TD> i mean no escrow scheme actually works that way in reality, right. or at least none i've ever encountered. there is always a dispute mediator of some form, usually whoever runs the marketplace you're trading in?
1929 2011-04-24 16:41:20 <TD> argh
1930 2011-04-24 16:41:24 programme has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1931 2011-04-24 16:41:27 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: only in theory, in practice not really, unless its a huge loss and the person was about to sell
1932 2011-04-24 16:41:28 <TD> destroying coins does not make people wealthier!
1933 2011-04-24 16:41:36 <Blitzboom> of course it does
1934 2011-04-24 16:41:38 <da2ce7> you need to compare how I would spend the coins. vs. the rest of the bitcoin community spends their increased purchasing power.
1935 2011-04-24 16:41:53 <Blitzboom> reduced supply meets same demand
1936 2011-04-24 16:41:54 CodePHP is now known as AFK_PHPAdam
1937 2011-04-24 16:41:58 <patapper> TD: we're trying to decentralise. that includes removing mediators if possible
1938 2011-04-24 16:42:09 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1939 2011-04-24 16:42:11 <patapper> and if that involves burning a few coins, so be it. it isn't the end of the world
1940 2011-04-24 16:42:13 <TD> no it doesn't
1941 2011-04-24 16:42:17 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: it depends if those coins wouldâve circulated
1942 2011-04-24 16:42:18 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: wealth == supply - demand. If losing coins doesnt effect supply (hint: it normally doesnt) then wealth does not increase
1943 2011-04-24 16:42:19 <Blitzboom> but in general yes
1944 2011-04-24 16:42:25 <TD> decentralization means not *requiring* trusted third parties
1945 2011-04-24 16:42:30 <TD> it doesn't mean you can't use them for benefit
1946 2011-04-24 16:42:30 <Blitzboom> yeah, but in general thatâs what happens
1947 2011-04-24 16:42:32 <patapper> I'm not suggesting people start burning coins just for the heck of it, to "generate wealth". I know that's stupid
1948 2011-04-24 16:42:48 <Blitzboom> patapper: itâs not generating wealth
1949 2011-04-24 16:42:52 <Blitzboom> itâs transferring wealth
1950 2011-04-24 16:42:55 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Bye)
1951 2011-04-24 16:42:56 <sacarlson> td: no there is presently an escrow with no mediator just the option to give to charity the funds or it's original planed payee
1952 2011-04-24 16:42:56 <TD> i'm using "wealth" in the economic sense
1953 2011-04-24 16:43:12 <patapper> Blitzboom: TD accused me of saying that
1954 2011-04-24 16:43:13 <TD> sacarlson: yes, i know that, but if there are going to be new script types you may as well allow for all possibilities
1955 2011-04-24 16:43:15 <Blitzboom> iâm talking of purchasing power, TD
1956 2011-04-24 16:43:36 <patapper> TD: decentralization means not requiring trusted third parties... ok. I'm going to stop requiring trusted third parties then.
1957 2011-04-24 16:43:41 <patapper> with this new escrow system
1958 2011-04-24 16:43:42 <Blitzboom> i think destroying coins is cool. please continue
1959 2011-04-24 16:44:07 <patapper> Blitzboom: put your bitcoins where your mouth is and destroy some right now. go on, we're waiting
1960 2011-04-24 16:44:12 <gasteve> well, consider the case where you lose a substantial amount of bitcoins and you need to replace them...you might enter bids on mtgox to acquire bitcoins to replace the ones you lost...that would raise the value of bitcoins
1961 2011-04-24 16:44:19 <patapper> unless you just meant destroying other people's coins? ;-)
1962 2011-04-24 16:44:24 <Blitzboom> i have destroyed all my coins of course!
1963 2011-04-24 16:44:33 <patapper> damn, this guy's fast!
1964 2011-04-24 16:44:42 <sacarlson> td: ya there is room for all of them if the scripts are easy enuf to edit
1965 2011-04-24 16:44:59 <gasteve> now, if you lost bitcoins and you don't care and never intend to replace them, then effectively, bitcoins exited circulation simultaneously with some demand
1966 2011-04-24 16:45:02 <TD> adding new script types requires upgrades of miners. so it's worth allowing as many use cases as possible with a new script type
1967 2011-04-24 16:45:09 <gasteve> (demand for those bitcoins that were lost)
1968 2011-04-24 16:45:25 <TD> 1-of-N is a fairly useful primitive assuming there is some sanity limit on N
1969 2011-04-24 16:45:34 <gasteve> (and thereby, having no effect on the price of bitcoins)
1970 2011-04-24 16:45:42 <patapper> TD: so make a pull request. that's what I want to do
1971 2011-04-24 16:45:42 <TD> ok, if you want to burn the coins, just set the outputs to "one of {zero, seller}"
1972 2011-04-24 16:45:46 * patapper ~when I grow up~
1973 2011-04-24 16:46:24 <TD> if you want dispute resolution or sending to charity or whatever, set the outputs to "one of {charity, seller}"
1974 2011-04-24 16:48:05 <jav_> BlueMatt: pull 184 was from me... I just closed it, I guess I somehow didn't do a clean compile or something
1975 2011-04-24 16:48:44 <sacarlson> I like the option that the funds that you don't end up wanting to go to your seller ends up in a random wallet like MINE
1976 2011-04-24 16:50:11 CyanDynamo has joined
1977 2011-04-24 16:50:19 <patapper> sacarlson: how much like yours?
1978 2011-04-24 16:50:32 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1982 2011-04-24 16:51:16 <BlueMatt> jav_: ah, ok
1983 2011-04-24 16:51:37 <sacarlson> patapper: all the ones that did transactions that are active over x number of week might get lucky and recieve funds from a failed escrow
1984 2011-04-24 16:52:01 joepie91 has quit (laptop!~joepie91@s514735fe.adsl.wanadoo.nl|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1985 2011-04-24 16:52:22 <patapper> that's cute. the scripting system doesn't support that either, so you would need somebody we trust to distribute the funds
1986 2011-04-24 16:52:29 <sacarlson> then people that aren't even minners might get lucky and make money
1987 2011-04-24 16:52:33 <patapper> at which point, might as well just send them to the bitcoin faucet
1988 2011-04-24 16:52:51 <TD> scripts can't be influenced by the current time. transactions can be using nLockTime though.
1989 2011-04-24 16:53:31 <patapper> TD: what does nLockTime do, please?
1990 2011-04-24 16:53:47 da2ce7 has quit ()
1991 2011-04-24 16:53:58 <TD> it can be either a block number or a timestamp. it keeps the transaction in the memory pool (not included in blocks) until that time arrives. then it can be included.
1992 2011-04-24 16:54:08 <TD> transactions can be replaced up to the time they lock
1993 2011-04-24 16:54:12 <TD> however this functionality is presently disabled
1994 2011-04-24 16:54:17 <TD> it's useful for contracts
1995 2011-04-24 16:54:27 <TD> so at some point i guess it'll be re-enabled on the testnet for people to play with as well
1996 2011-04-24 16:54:28 <Kiba> Bitcoiners are crypto-liberals
1997 2011-04-24 16:54:31 <sacarlson> td yes block number difference is in one way a method to tell time
1998 2011-04-24 16:54:38 eternal1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1999 2011-04-24 16:54:40 <luke-jr> Kiba: don't generalize.
2000 2011-04-24 16:55:03 <patapper> that sounds quite prone to abuse. you don't want too much stuff hanging around in the memory pool for too long
2001 2011-04-24 16:55:37 da2ce7 has joined
2002 2011-04-24 16:55:49 <TD> there are lots of ways to DoS bitcoin
2003 2011-04-24 16:55:57 <sacarlson> patapper: the pool is cliped over some time period I think
2004 2011-04-24 16:56:13 <jav_> but I keep having troubles with the RPC interface... I start bitcoind, "./bitcoind help" works fine... then I call "./bitcoind getaccountaddress rpctest1" and it just hangs... afterwards it doesn't respond to RPC calls anymore (this is with latest git)
2005 2011-04-24 16:56:53 <BlueMatt> jav_: hm, what build environment (os, etc)
2006 2011-04-24 16:57:00 <patapper> somebody should put up a bounty for DoSing the testnet and publishing the details
2007 2011-04-24 16:57:14 <jav_> BlueMatt: Debian Squeeze
2008 2011-04-24 16:57:33 <sacarlson> in my proto coin I was even considering adding user data space to transactions
2009 2011-04-24 16:57:43 <TD> well, there are several well known attacks
2010 2011-04-24 16:58:24 <patapper> I guess testnet isn't fair because people can easily pay any tx fee
2011 2011-04-24 16:58:54 <patapper> and offering a bounty for DoSing the main network could have... unintended consequences
2012 2011-04-24 16:59:52 <luke-jr> lol
2013 2011-04-24 17:00:05 <luke-jr> someone would have to be stupid to take that offer
2014 2011-04-24 17:00:12 <luke-jr> since he'd devalue his payment
2015 2011-04-24 17:01:16 <patapper> not necessarily. A DoS is only a temporary situation, after which the economy could continue as normal
2016 2011-04-24 17:01:17 <BlueMatt> jav_: wouldnt know myself, anything at the end of debug.log?
2017 2011-04-24 17:02:05 <Kiba> how long can a DOS continue?
2018 2011-04-24 17:02:24 <patapper> how long is a piece of string?
2019 2011-04-24 17:02:41 <patapper> as long as it wants to be, unless somebody cuts it early
2020 2011-04-24 17:02:47 <patapper> that analogy was ill-thought-out
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2022 2011-04-24 17:04:17 <jav_> BlueMatt: just "ThreadRPCServer method=getaccountaddress" .. then it continues with some "IRC got join" .. so it didn't crash completly.. somehow just the RPCServer hangs
2023 2011-04-24 17:04:39 <sacarlson> jav_ I never used the function did you try bitcoind getnewaddress ?
2024 2011-04-24 17:04:52 AndroUser2 has joined
2025 2011-04-24 17:05:41 <jav_> sacarlson: it also hangs on "sendfrom" sometimes
2026 2011-04-24 17:06:18 joepie91 has joined
2027 2011-04-24 17:06:37 <sacarlson> jav_: I only use the basic function never tried sendfrom just sendtoaddress
2028 2011-04-24 17:06:45 <jav_> Unfortunately I can only reproduce this reliably on my production system :-/ .. obviously I don't really want to test around there too much (that's bitcoinmonitor.com) ... but my laptop also runs Debian Squeeze, so one difference I can think of is that the production system has fewer resources.. so might be a race condition of some sort (?)
2029 2011-04-24 17:07:19 <jav_> but I do have the deadlock fixes from latest git
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2034 2011-04-24 17:12:45 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: re: bad nightly bitcoind: got it to build fairly well on linux so Im gonna start building bitcoind on there instead of on win32. Hopefully bitcoin-gui as well eventually, but wx insists on not linking atm
2035 2011-04-24 17:14:20 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: the spesmilo gui seems to do almost all the bitcoin gui does without the wx lib problems on ubuntu 10.04
2036 2011-04-24 17:14:42 <genjix> jaromil: hey see PM
2037 2011-04-24 17:15:01 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: yea, wx is a pita. Still if I'm gonna do nightlies, I'm gonna do it all
2038 2011-04-24 17:15:38 <jav_> by the way: would it be feasible to backport the bitcoin gui to wx 2.8? does anyone know what that would involve?
2039 2011-04-24 17:16:00 DukeOfURL has joined
2040 2011-04-24 17:16:04 <BlueMatt> jav_: the difference is utf support was added in 2.9 and bitcoin uses that in some cases
2041 2011-04-24 17:16:11 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: well I don't even think I could find the packages for the wx lib on my new 10.10 maybe on 11.04 you can find them?
2042 2011-04-24 17:16:15 <BlueMatt> probably not impossible to backport, but youll break a couple translations
2043 2011-04-24 17:16:34 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no wx 2.9 is still "beta" so its in no repos
2044 2011-04-24 17:16:55 <BlueMatt> jav_: either way, probably easier to just wait for 2.9 to become "stable"
2045 2011-04-24 17:17:01 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: ya I couldn't even find a copy on ppa maybe just create a ppa for it
2046 2011-04-24 17:17:22 <BlueMatt> meh, might as well just keep statically linking
2047 2011-04-24 17:18:32 <sacarlson> only thing I'm missing on spesmilo is the block count and number of connections, maybe I could add that
2048 2011-04-24 17:18:43 <BlueMatt> should be able to
2049 2011-04-24 17:18:45 <jav_> BlueMatt: it would make building on Linux much easier, which also would get Bitcoin faster into distributions... Debian could probably include the GUI in a couple of weeks then... while now it is stuck at "waiting for wx to become stable" which might take months
2050 2011-04-24 17:18:48 <BlueMatt> they are both available in getinfo
2051 2011-04-24 17:19:40 <BlueMatt> jav_: true...does anyone have any idea what kind of progress wx 2.9 is towards "stable"
2052 2011-04-24 17:20:15 <BlueMatt> nevermind, it looks like 2.9 is permanently marked "development"
2053 2011-04-24 17:20:21 <BlueMatt> and we will have to wait till 3.0
2054 2011-04-24 17:22:05 <BlueMatt> Though that is fairly out of date "The next planned release is 2.9.2 and is planned to happen in the beginning of 2011."
2055 2011-04-24 17:22:50 <jav_> I only know that "waiting for wx" was already a problem for Debian around September 2010
2056 2011-04-24 17:23:45 <BlueMatt> yea, there is no way they will pull bitcoin if wx is statically linked
2057 2011-04-24 17:24:00 <BlueMatt> maybe get spesmilo into debian/ubuntu?
2058 2011-04-24 17:24:18 <jav_> exactly... that's why the Debian package currently only contains the daemon
2059 2011-04-24 17:24:29 <BlueMatt> oh, didnt know we already had the daemon
2060 2011-04-24 17:24:35 <BlueMatt> well atleast thats something
2061 2011-04-24 17:25:06 <BlueMatt> well, if you want to port bitcoin back to wx 2.8 and drop some of the translations, Im sure you could get it into debian
2062 2011-04-24 17:25:07 <jav_> yeah: http://packages.qa.debian.org/b/bitcoin.html
2063 2011-04-24 17:25:28 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: ya the cool thing is I can have all these different versions of bitcoind and drive them all from one spesmilo
2064 2011-04-24 17:25:44 <BlueMatt> lol, talk to luke-jr about that one
2065 2011-04-24 17:26:05 * Kiba is tired
2066 2011-04-24 17:26:22 <sacarlson> luke-jr I love his spesmilo if he didn't make it I was going to
2067 2011-04-24 17:26:55 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: not nocking it, Ive only ever tried it once quite a while ago
2068 2011-04-24 17:27:40 AndroUser2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2069 2011-04-24 17:28:51 <sacarlson> the python it's writen in might even make it easy to add more stuf to it
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2072 2011-04-24 17:30:58 <jav_> ok, more debugging: If I use "getaccountaddress rpctest1" on an empty wallet, it hangs (also on my development machine now) ... if I instead run "getnewaddress someotheraccount", and THEN "getaccountaddress rpctest1" it works... and so does every other getaccountaddress call afterwards
2073 2011-04-24 17:32:20 <jav_> so somehow it's a problem to run getaccountaddress on an empty wallet (the problem is not, that the account doesn't exist... getaccountaddress creates the account, if it doesn't exist already)
2074 2011-04-24 17:32:49 <jav_> can someone think of some one-time setup stuff that might not have happened yet and causes it to hang/crash?
2075 2011-04-24 17:33:55 <sacarlson> jav_: well sounds like you found a work around, that's all I normaly hope for
2076 2011-04-24 17:35:27 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2077 2011-04-24 17:35:48 <jav_> sacarlson: yeah, I'll use the workaround for now... I'd still like to track down the problem... because maybe this doesn't just happen on an empty wallet... but might repeat every 200 calls or something like that... doesn't Bitcoin pregenerate keys sometimes? might be related to that and will bite me again then
2078 2011-04-24 17:35:54 devon_hillard has joined
2079 2011-04-24 17:36:47 <sacarlson> jav_: I see what apears to be pregenerate keys when I do getinfo
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2081 2011-04-24 17:39:23 <tcatm> jav_: I can't reproduce it here
2082 2011-04-24 17:40:26 kermit has joined
2083 2011-04-24 17:41:37 <jav_> tcatm: I do have a few, very small patches applied... let me see if I can reproduce it with vanilla git
2084 2011-04-24 17:44:04 Teslah has joined
2085 2011-04-24 17:46:03 <jav_> tcatm: yes, also crashes with vanilla git
2086 2011-04-24 17:47:26 rly has joined
2087 2011-04-24 17:48:19 <jav_> I delete wallet.dat, start ./bitcoind... then run "./bitcoind getaccountaddress rpctest1" and it hangs. This is on Debian Squeeze, with libdb4.7
2088 2011-04-24 17:48:54 <rly> When I mine in a pool the hashrate goes down. 142Mh/s instead of the 160Mh/s I first got. Also, the pool claims that, on average I got only half of that.
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2092 2011-04-24 17:52:08 <jav_> well.. it works for now, with the workaround.. let's see how stable it is
2093 2011-04-24 17:53:04 paul_andrew has joined
2094 2011-04-24 17:53:05 <tcatm> tried it again: rm wallet.dat, bitcoind, wait until getinfo returns, getaccountaddress foo returns address
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2097 2011-04-24 17:54:08 <jav_> tcatm: that works for me as well... am I supposed to call getinfo?
2098 2011-04-24 17:54:42 <jav_> tcatm: I always called "help" to see, if the RPC interface is ready
2099 2011-04-24 17:54:42 <tcatm> no, but I used that to check when then RPC is ready
2100 2011-04-24 17:54:56 <jav_> aw, I see... yeah, try "help" please
2101 2011-04-24 17:55:37 <tcatm> looks like it hangs
2102 2011-04-24 17:55:50 sethsethseth has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2103 2011-04-24 17:57:36 <jav_> tcatm: ok... so the problem is something that getinfo (or alternatively "getnewaddress") does, that getaccountaddress expects to alread have happened
2104 2011-04-24 17:58:59 warpi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2105 2011-04-24 18:00:58 ArtForzZz has joined
2106 2011-04-24 18:01:37 <tcatm> jav_: can you create a bug report on github?
2107 2011-04-24 18:02:01 <jav_> tcatm: yes, I can do that later
2108 2011-04-24 18:03:00 <BlueMatt> anyone have a clue what ui.cpp:2843 is for? seems to compile fine without it (and its a blocker for wx link for some reason)
2109 2011-04-24 18:03:43 <BlueMatt> and it runs fine without that line
2110 2011-04-24 18:04:28 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2111 2011-04-24 18:04:47 <tcatm> BlueMatt: what's the complete line (it's an #endif here)?
2112 2011-04-24 18:04:52 <BlueMatt> in other news...
2113 2011-04-24 18:05:04 * BlueMatt has a compile, working bitcoin+bitcoind for win32 compiled on linux
2114 2011-04-24 18:05:15 <BlueMatt> tcatm: wxPNG something or other
2115 2011-04-24 18:05:21 <witten> wxImage::AddHandler(new wxPNGHandler);
2116 2011-04-24 18:05:26 <BlueMatt> that
2117 2011-04-24 18:05:56 <tcatm> Hm, I assume it tells wx how to handle PNG files...
2118 2011-04-24 18:06:19 <BlueMatt> but bitcoin doesnt use any png files
2119 2011-04-24 18:06:29 <tcatm> so line can be removed :)
2120 2011-04-24 18:06:36 <witten> it allows wx to read PNG files: http://docs.wxwidgets.org/stable/wx_wximage.html#wximageaddhandler
2121 2011-04-24 18:07:05 <BlueMatt> and as I cant get wx to link without configure with --without-libpng, it keeps bitcoin from cross compiling for me
2122 2011-04-24 18:07:12 <BlueMatt> In any case, I see no pngs so...
2123 2011-04-24 18:07:15 ArtForzZy has joined
2124 2011-04-24 18:07:18 <witten> bitcoin *should* use PNG files for icons and such
2125 2011-04-24 18:07:36 <tcatm> xpm is just fine
2126 2011-04-24 18:07:38 <BlueMatt> meh, doesnt matter _that_ much
2127 2011-04-24 18:07:55 <tcatm> if we ever changed that we should use SVG
2128 2011-04-24 18:08:05 <dotblank> use SVG :)
2129 2011-04-24 18:08:19 <BlueMatt> well that would kill it too as for some reason wx's svg stuff depends on libpng...no idea why
2130 2011-04-24 18:08:19 devrandom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2131 2011-04-24 18:08:33 SideEffffECt has joined
2132 2011-04-24 18:08:40 stamit has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2133 2011-04-24 18:08:43 <dotblank> can't you simple use librsvg or somthing like that
2134 2011-04-24 18:08:49 <dotblank> simply*
2135 2011-04-24 18:09:00 <BlueMatt> dotblank: not as far as I can tell from wx's ./configure --help
2136 2011-04-24 18:09:21 <BlueMatt> whenever you do --without-libpng it fails to compile saying its required for svg
2137 2011-04-24 18:09:25 <lfm> prolly it allows .pngs for icons
2138 2011-04-24 18:09:37 <dotblank> BlueMatt, well can you use some sort of pixbuf?
2139 2011-04-24 18:09:44 <BlueMatt> dotblank: probably
2140 2011-04-24 18:10:05 <dotblank> use librsvg compile without png then load using librsvg then feed it a compatable buffer of the image
2141 2011-04-24 18:10:11 <BlueMatt> In any case, I got bitcoin to cross compile on linux and it works better than the result of compiling on winserv2003 or win7
2142 2011-04-24 18:10:12 SideEffffECt has left ()
2143 2011-04-24 18:10:19 xlogik has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2144 2011-04-24 18:10:20 ArtForzZz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2145 2011-04-24 18:10:21 <BlueMatt> anyway, g2g...will do a writeup later
2146 2011-04-24 18:10:32 <BlueMatt> dotblank: its not me doing it, its wx
2147 2011-04-24 18:10:39 <dotblank> ok
2148 2011-04-24 18:10:39 <BlueMatt> I dont know/want to know what wx is doing
2149 2011-04-24 18:10:44 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2150 2011-04-24 18:11:49 MBS is now known as lurker
2151 2011-04-24 18:11:55 lurker is now known as MBS
2152 2011-04-24 18:11:58 <dotblank> oh wow.. adding url handlers to ubuntu is super easy
2153 2011-04-24 18:12:09 <dotblank> all you have to do is add a gcnf entry for it
2154 2011-04-24 18:13:48 <jav_> seems like my guess about the key cache was right... GetAccountAddress() calls GetKeyFromKeyPool() when "account.vchPubKey.empty())" ... but both methods acquire the same locks, so it hangs
2155 2011-04-24 18:14:09 <LightRider> So I tried to send .05 donation to the faucet, but was forced to give a .01 tx fee.
2156 2011-04-24 18:14:12 <ArtForzZy> no
2157 2011-04-24 18:14:14 <LightRider> Is that supposed to happen?
2158 2011-04-24 18:14:17 ArtForzZy is now known as ArtForz
2159 2011-04-24 18:14:31 ArtForz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2160 2011-04-24 18:14:40 <gjs278> what's better, HIS or sapphire for a 5970
2161 2011-04-24 18:14:49 Xunie has joined
2162 2011-04-24 18:15:04 <jav_> I'll include that in the bug report... someone with a better high-level overview of the bitcoin source will need to figure out how to best fix it, though =)
2163 2011-04-24 18:15:37 stamit has joined
2164 2011-04-24 18:15:46 <rly> I wonder who buys two 5970s of a different brand and actually went to the effort to measure everything about it.
2165 2011-04-24 18:16:02 <tcatm> jav_: confirmed, hangs in GetKeyFromKeyPool()
2166 2011-04-24 18:16:03 <TD> LightRider: it can happen if your wallet is very fragmented
2167 2011-04-24 18:16:06 <jav_> LightRider: what version are you running? .. the more recent ones require a fee if you use very young coins
2168 2011-04-24 18:16:10 ArtForzZy has joined
2169 2011-04-24 18:16:13 <TD> that too
2170 2011-04-24 18:16:15 <LightRider> 0.3.21
2171 2011-04-24 18:16:25 <LightRider> What counts as very young?
2172 2011-04-24 18:16:34 <rly> Is there any problem in 0.3.20?
2173 2011-04-24 18:16:40 <LightRider> Also, I always consolidate all my coins into one address
2174 2011-04-24 18:16:43 warpi has joined
2175 2011-04-24 18:17:03 ArtForzZy has quit (Client Quit)
2176 2011-04-24 18:17:03 <LightRider> No, 0.3.20 didn't force fees in that case
2177 2011-04-24 18:17:18 ArtForzZy has joined
2178 2011-04-24 18:17:37 ArtForzZy has quit (Client Quit)
2179 2011-04-24 18:18:35 <jav_> LightRider: few confirmations is regarded as young... but how many exactly, I'm not sure.. I'm not too familiar with the code in question
2180 2011-04-24 18:18:56 skeledrew has joined
2181 2011-04-24 18:19:37 <LightRider> Really unfair for those of us who only have 2 or three btc right now. I think I'll lose a significant amount of coin to fees
2182 2011-04-24 18:20:01 ArtForz has joined
2183 2011-04-24 18:20:16 ArtForz has quit (Client Quit)
2184 2011-04-24 18:20:33 <Diablo-D3> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: Transaction creation failed "}
2185 2011-04-24 18:20:35 ArtForz has joined
2186 2011-04-24 18:20:36 <jav_> LightRider: I also don't like these rules and think a more flexible (that is: cheaper) solution needs to be found, otherwise the first impression of Bitcoin will definitely suffer
2187 2011-04-24 18:20:39 <Diablo-D3> Art
2188 2011-04-24 18:20:41 <Diablo-D3> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: Transaction creation failed "}
2189 2011-04-24 18:20:44 <Diablo-D3> I demand to know why
2190 2011-04-24 18:20:47 <ArtForz> ?
2191 2011-04-24 18:21:26 <jav_> LightRider: but if I understand the code right, it would probably help to just wait a few hours, then try again and see if you still need a fee
2192 2011-04-24 18:21:29 BlueMatt has joined
2193 2011-04-24 18:21:38 <ArtForz> jav_: taking the same lock multiple times is fine
2194 2011-04-24 18:21:39 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: I cant figure out why its doing it
2195 2011-04-24 18:22:12 xlogik has joined
2196 2011-04-24 18:22:16 <LightRider> Ha, a currency that makes you want to spend your money less frequently.
2197 2011-04-24 18:22:21 <LightRider> interesting
2198 2011-04-24 18:22:42 <BlueMatt> dotblank: really?, would you write a script which adds a bitcoin: handler which can be added to the uri pull request?
2199 2011-04-24 18:23:01 <BlueMatt> dotblank: if you could do a kde version too...
2200 2011-04-24 18:23:18 <jav_> ArtForz: aw, I see, those kind of locks... well, in any case it hangs on GetKeyFromKeyPool() when you call "getaccountaddress foo" on an empty wallet with no other RPC calls before that (except for "help")
2201 2011-04-24 18:23:22 <rly> LightRider: the money should roll faster to the payment processors. ;)
2202 2011-04-24 18:23:38 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: or 2.10 perhaps
2203 2011-04-24 18:23:42 <ArtForz> hmmm
2204 2011-04-24 18:23:56 <luke-jr> sacarlson: building Win Spesmilo on Linux is basically impossible
2205 2011-04-24 18:23:58 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: ...?
2206 2011-04-24 18:24:26 <dotblank> BlueMatt, Yea it really shouldn't be that infact because gconf can run as a flat file you just have to dump the contents into the right folder at startup
2207 2011-04-24 18:24:35 AAA_awright_ has joined
2208 2011-04-24 18:24:43 <dotblank> do that*
2209 2011-04-24 18:24:53 <dotblank> in .gconf
2210 2011-04-24 18:25:21 <BlueMatt> dotblank: care to write a sh script which uses gconf-editor or whatever its cli equivalent is to add bitcoin: handler?
2211 2011-04-24 18:25:29 <dotblank> does bitcoin have any dbus handlers?
2212 2011-04-24 18:25:34 <BlueMatt> dotblank: no
2213 2011-04-24 18:25:52 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: why does bitcoin suck dick
2214 2011-04-24 18:25:53 <dotblank> oh ok.. I would get that then you have a bitcoin-url program
2215 2011-04-24 18:25:57 stamit has quit (Quit: stamit)
2216 2011-04-24 18:26:08 <BlueMatt> currently to open a uri of bitcoin: you have to specify bitcoin: at the command line (in my uri branch)
2217 2011-04-24 18:26:10 <dotblank> and you pass the url string to it.. it then dissects it and fire dbus events
2218 2011-04-24 18:26:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: 2.9 -> 2.10, not 3.0
2219 2011-04-24 18:26:51 <dotblank> BlueMatt, on github?
2220 2011-04-24 18:26:51 <BlueMatt> dotblank: currently you just call bitcoin: with a bitcoin: uri and it sends it to any existing bitcoins which are open or opens
2221 2011-04-24 18:27:11 <dotblank> BlueMatt, oh great then no change is needed or additional programing
2222 2011-04-24 18:27:13 <luke-jr> dotblank: BlueMatt's branch is broken
2223 2011-04-24 18:27:18 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh, the roadmap wiki page didnt show a 2.10, but it was out of date anyway
2224 2011-04-24 18:27:30 <luke-jr> dotblank: git://gitorious.org/~Luke-Jr/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin.git bitcoinuri
2225 2011-04-24 18:27:31 <BlueMatt> dotblank: it doesnt follow luke's standard, but it follows the community-voted one
2226 2011-04-24 18:27:42 <BlueMatt> ie mine will be pulled, luke's wont
2227 2011-04-24 18:27:54 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/uri
2228 2011-04-24 18:28:04 <BlueMatt> specifically https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/4540dd3033ad3d61626ad1bb92b06652affaccb4
2229 2011-04-24 18:28:08 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr
2230 2011-04-24 18:28:09 <Diablo-D3> do you know
2231 2011-04-24 18:28:34 <dotblank> thats not a too terrible amount of code at all
2232 2011-04-24 18:28:41 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2233 2011-04-24 18:28:47 <BlueMatt> dotblank: no its really quite simple
2234 2011-04-24 18:28:48 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/w/bitcoind/luke-jr.git/commitdiff/d32bebafd41fac885055274ebf6142b960d1345e
2235 2011-04-24 18:29:15 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: shut up, unless you can convince the community to vote otherwise, your standard is dead
2236 2011-04-24 18:29:29 <dotblank> whoa whoa
2237 2011-04-24 18:29:34 <BlueMatt> (except in spesmilo, obviously)
2238 2011-04-24 18:29:49 lekernel has joined
2239 2011-04-24 18:29:51 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no u
2240 2011-04-24 18:29:56 <dotblank> if the uri has a different preceeding url bas you can implement both
2241 2011-04-24 18:30:11 <BlueMatt> dotblank: they are pretty much compatible anyway
2242 2011-04-24 18:30:20 <BlueMatt> "mine" just has a bunch of stuff remove
2243 2011-04-24 18:30:21 <BlueMatt> d
2244 2011-04-24 18:30:28 <luke-jr> dotblank: the bitcoin: URI standard supports everything BlueMatt's damaged code does
2245 2011-04-24 18:30:36 <BlueMatt> though standard urls will work fine in luke's code too
2246 2011-04-24 18:31:00 <luke-jr> only a subset of standard URIs work in BlueMatt's patch
2247 2011-04-24 18:31:18 <luke-jr> apparently he doesn't know the difference between a URI and URL either :P
2248 2011-04-24 18:31:43 <dotblank> luke-jr, I see from your code it produces a new bitcoin binary that uses ipc to send it to insatances
2249 2011-04-24 18:31:43 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: how so?
2250 2011-04-24 18:31:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: oh you mean the windows stuff?
2251 2011-04-24 18:32:08 <BlueMatt> well if you can find a windows uri register function, by all means, tell me
2252 2011-04-24 18:32:24 <BlueMatt> but the URL stuff will open fine with bitcoin: uris or bitcoin:// urls
2253 2011-04-24 18:32:37 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: bitcoin:?amount=x1x4 for example
2254 2011-04-24 18:32:59 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: the community-voted uris that is
2255 2011-04-24 18:33:14 mmoya has joined
2256 2011-04-24 18:33:15 <rly> Offtopic: Is there a way to place a call with end-to-end encryption?
2257 2011-04-24 18:33:35 <dotblank> Ok BlueMatt you said your spec is like luke-jr's except with some features removed.. is it to make the URI simplier?
2258 2011-04-24 18:33:40 <BlueMatt> rly: there are special phones, but you could also do it via vpn
2259 2011-04-24 18:33:49 <BlueMatt> dotblank: yes
2260 2011-04-24 18:33:52 <luke-jr> dotblank: it's to make it more difficult for some uses
2261 2011-04-24 18:33:58 <rly> BlueMatt: special phones are usually backdoored.
2262 2011-04-24 18:34:05 <luke-jr> dotblank: and anti-future-proof
2263 2011-04-24 18:34:06 <BlueMatt> dotblank: IMHO some of them shouldnt be removed, but that is what the votes on the forum say to do
2264 2011-04-24 18:34:31 <rly> BlueMatt: how would it work via VPN? In particular, which application?
2265 2011-04-24 18:34:35 <BlueMatt> rly: cant you just use a skype-style thing
2266 2011-04-24 18:34:43 <dotblank> Well what is the harm in having extra features? more time/effort to maintain the URI support in other programs?
2267 2011-04-24 18:34:43 <BlueMatt> oh sorry not vpn, voip
2268 2011-04-24 18:34:47 <rly> BlueMatt: Skype is a third party.
2269 2011-04-24 18:34:56 <BlueMatt> ie software on voip that encrypts
2270 2011-04-24 18:35:05 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
2271 2011-04-24 18:35:10 <BlueMatt> rly: yes, but if both you and the other party use skype, its encrypted
2272 2011-04-24 18:35:13 <rly> BlueMatt: I don't know of anything open-source that does this.
2273 2011-04-24 18:35:16 <luke-jr> dotblank: every other bitcoin client already supports the full standard.
2274 2011-04-24 18:35:29 <rly> BlueMatt: no, because Skype can decrypt it.
2275 2011-04-24 18:35:36 <luke-jr> dotblank: the developers of the wx Bitcoin client just want to troll
2276 2011-04-24 18:35:44 <BlueMatt> rly: you sure about that, I know some govts hate skype because they cant
2277 2011-04-24 18:35:48 <luke-jr> dotblank: they WANT it to be more difficult for some people
2278 2011-04-24 18:35:56 toffoo has joined
2279 2011-04-24 18:36:12 <luke-jr> an attitude which will inevitably kill Bitcoin adoption
2280 2011-04-24 18:36:19 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: shut up and convince users on the forums...its not the "developers of wxui" its the "community of bitcoin"
2281 2011-04-24 18:36:23 <rly> BlueMatt: Skype already gave access. It is basically illegal to offer a service which they cannot decrypt.
2282 2011-04-24 18:36:32 jav_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2283 2011-04-24 18:36:38 <BlueMatt> rly: a. no its not (well not anymore, used to be, but not any more)
2284 2011-04-24 18:36:52 <luke-jr> hopefully open-minded clients will gain marketshare and make the original closed-minded client developer team obsolete
2285 2011-04-24 18:36:53 <BlueMatt> are you sure they did, I know there are quite a few govts who are bitching at skype for access
2286 2011-04-24 18:36:58 <rly> BlueMatt: in the EU it is, AFAIK.
2287 2011-04-24 18:37:15 lekernel has left ("Ex-Chat")
2288 2011-04-24 18:37:33 <BlueMatt> rly: well I know several us govt higher-ups have been complaining that skype needs to make them a back door and skype has offices in the us iirc
2289 2011-04-24 18:37:43 <rly> BlueMatt: anyway, I think it is fairly clear what I want, no? ZPhone (by PGP author) does VoIP encryption, but I don't think it is open.
2290 2011-04-24 18:38:11 <dotblank> luke-jr, wxMessageBox("Failed to talk to wxBitcoin; is it running?", "Error", wxICON_ERROR | wxOK);
2291 2011-04-24 18:38:21 <BlueMatt> in any case, you could go crazy and do a dial up modem between you and the other part instead of a call and then do a vpn over that and voip
2292 2011-04-24 18:38:28 <dotblank> Is there anyway to start bitcoin with the passed uri
2293 2011-04-24 18:38:31 <BlueMatt> dotblank: for that part, check my repo
2294 2011-04-24 18:38:35 <BlueMatt> it handles starting better
2295 2011-04-24 18:38:41 <luke-jr> dotblank: yes, but there was a dispute about whether that was a good thing or not
2296 2011-04-24 18:38:44 <BlueMatt> though the parsing code, you can use luke's if you want
2297 2011-04-24 18:38:46 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: worse*
2298 2011-04-24 18:38:53 <dotblank> BlueMatt, yea I saw.. but at the same time there advantages to seperating them out
2299 2011-04-24 18:38:57 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: does yours start bitcoin if it isnt open?
2300 2011-04-24 18:39:14 <dotblank> BlueMatt, his can though.. it hasn't been coded yet
2301 2011-04-24 18:39:15 <BlueMatt> dotblank: true, you can still separate it out if you want, but you should start bitcoin if its closed
2302 2011-04-24 18:39:27 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it could be made to easily, without totally wrecking it :P
2303 2011-04-24 18:39:51 RazielZ has quit ()
2304 2011-04-24 18:39:56 devrandom_ has joined
2305 2011-04-24 18:40:03 <dotblank> actually thats an interesting point tho.. say a client doesn't want to open bitcoin.. the uri handler could ask the user if it wanted to
2306 2011-04-24 18:40:07 <dotblank> if it wasn't open
2307 2011-04-24 18:40:10 <BlueMatt> dotblank: meh, do what you want I dont care...in fact I agree with quite a few of luke's things, Im just doing what the community voted on, which is the only way it will get merged around here
2308 2011-04-24 18:40:11 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but why bother, when there's no clear consensus on what to do, and the mainline developers are trolling it out anyway?
2309 2011-04-24 18:40:22 AFK_PHPAdam has joined
2310 2011-04-24 18:40:46 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: sorry but rejecting tonal support is not trolling, that would be you trolling
2311 2011-04-24 18:40:53 <luke-jr> time is better spent improving other clients that aren't run by closed-minded trolls
2312 2011-04-24 18:40:58 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: last I checked there was a clear consensus
2313 2011-04-24 18:41:02 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: there is no tonal support in URIs in any branch, idiot
2314 2011-04-24 18:41:21 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: hex == tonal, there is literally no other use for hex
2315 2011-04-24 18:41:27 <ArtForz> yes, hex using base units totally has nothing to do with tonal
2316 2011-04-24 18:41:31 <dotblank> its not hard to use both...
2317 2011-04-24 18:41:43 <dotblank> really for the purpose of the scipt its no biggie
2318 2011-04-24 18:41:47 <dotblank> script*
2319 2011-04-24 18:41:51 <BlueMatt> dotblank: no, but it does make the uri's harder to read for humans
2320 2011-04-24 18:41:58 <BlueMatt> which is really the argument most people make against it
2321 2011-04-24 18:42:04 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and it's one thing to reject a feature, and other thing entirely to try to change a must-be-universal standard to block EVERYONE from using it
2322 2011-04-24 18:42:14 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: humans aren't supposed to read URIs
2323 2011-04-24 18:42:16 <dotblank> but arn't bitcoin address already hard to read by humans?
2324 2011-04-24 18:42:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: and reading bitcoin URIs is basically impossible anyway
2325 2011-04-24 18:42:36 <BlueMatt> dotblank: not really, the idea is for someone to be able to read the uris before clicking them
2326 2011-04-24 18:42:40 <BlueMatt> which many people can
2327 2011-04-24 18:42:49 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's a stupid idea
2328 2011-04-24 18:43:14 <ArtForz> luke-jr: and that assessment is based on what?
2329 2011-04-24 18:43:21 <BlueMatt> dotblank: anyway, its completely up to you, its your code. For reference here are the 3 polls luke-jr started: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6206.0 http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6207.0 http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6208.0
2330 2011-04-24 18:43:27 has joined
2331 2011-04-24 18:43:31 <dotblank> Well ideally the program that handles the URI would extract the information and provide a more userfriendly alternative
2332 2011-04-24 18:43:56 <jrabbit> is there a way to pull the mtgox last close figure from http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ ?
2333 2011-04-24 18:44:11 <luke-jr> dotblank: that's what happens âº
2334 2011-04-24 18:44:29 <nanotube> jrabbit: 'last close' is just the last trade before the utc day rollover... why do you wannit?
2335 2011-04-24 18:44:42 <jrabbit> nanotube: useful for comparing current prices to
2336 2011-04-24 18:44:54 <jrabbit> better than having to calculate it myself
2337 2011-04-24 18:45:38 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: of course, the polls prove one point: people on the Bitcoin developer forum are bigots.
2338 2011-04-24 18:45:58 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: just because people disagree with you in no way makes them bigots
2339 2011-04-24 18:46:02 <ArtForz> and they prove another thing: luke likes to reset polls when he doesn't like the results
2340 2011-04-24 18:46:10 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2341 2011-04-24 18:46:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: if they just disagree, they should just stick to what they want to use
2342 2011-04-24 18:46:16 <dotblank> wait wait..
2343 2011-04-24 18:46:18 <BlueMatt> there are clear advantages to not supporting hex
2344 2011-04-24 18:46:22 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: forcing me to use what they want too, is bigotry
2345 2011-04-24 18:46:41 <dotblank> are you saying that this is over the orders of power that the base unit in URIs should be?
2346 2011-04-24 18:46:43 <BlueMatt> meh Im done discussing this. luke-jr stop crying
2347 2011-04-24 18:46:52 <BlueMatt> dotblank: no
2348 2011-04-24 18:47:07 <BlueMatt> dotblank: its mostly about hex/tonal
2349 2011-04-24 18:47:18 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2350 2011-04-24 18:47:23 <BlueMatt> dotblank: over the other things, most people dont argue much
2351 2011-04-24 18:47:30 <BlueMatt> over hex/tonal, only luke argues
2352 2011-04-24 18:47:39 <ArtForz> argues? more like trolls
2353 2011-04-24 18:47:48 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that's funny, low-level vs high-level was just about 50/50
2354 2011-04-24 18:47:53 <jrabbit> http://mtgox.com/code/data/getTrades.php this goes back far enough I guess I could calculate it
2355 2011-04-24 18:48:01 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: yes, but that is a sensible, calm discussion
2356 2011-04-24 18:48:06 <BlueMatt> not an argument like hex/tonal
2357 2011-04-24 18:48:25 <ArtForz> what was the original answer 1 in poll #3 again "only support decimal and discriminate against minorities" ?
2358 2011-04-24 18:48:29 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: also, one person cannot argue alone. it takes 2 at least
2359 2011-04-24 18:48:44 <BlueMatt> you vs. everyone and right now just me...hence Im done
2360 2011-04-24 18:48:52 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: something like that
2361 2011-04-24 18:49:30 <dotblank> well it doesn't much matter to me because you could simple change the command string anyways
2362 2011-04-24 18:49:35 <dotblank> simply*
2363 2011-04-24 18:49:36 <jrabbit> 1,2,many
2364 2011-04-24 18:49:46 <jrabbit> I support this nomenclature for bitcoin.
2365 2011-04-24 18:49:48 <BlueMatt> dotblank: what, exactly are you doing ?
2366 2011-04-24 18:49:58 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2367 2011-04-24 18:50:06 <luke-jr> BlueMatt & co want to force me to write bitcoin:?amount=0.01048576 instead of bitcoin:?amount=x10
2368 2011-04-24 18:50:07 devrandom_ is now known as devrandom
2369 2011-04-24 18:50:07 <dotblank> well gconf doesn't require any programing
2370 2011-04-24 18:50:09 <BlueMatt> genjix: re: OP_TIMESTAMP: Im in favor, could be very useful
2371 2011-04-24 18:50:12 <dotblank> its just asimple config
2372 2011-04-24 18:50:38 <dotblank> I guess I could add gconf code to bitcoin itself to autoregister the URI handlers
2373 2011-04-24 18:50:41 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but it's not viable
2374 2011-04-24 18:51:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: any change to scripts completely breaks compatibility
2375 2011-04-24 18:51:14 <programme> does anyone here knows if pushpool supports rpc calls_
2376 2011-04-24 18:51:25 <ArtForz> well, not completely
2377 2011-04-24 18:51:32 <ArtForz> it breaks backwards compatibility
2378 2011-04-24 18:51:33 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: there are reserved things which can be used
2379 2011-04-24 18:51:52 <devrandom> what's OP_TIMESTAMP?
2380 2011-04-24 18:52:01 dust1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2381 2011-04-24 18:52:03 <BlueMatt> well, obviously you have to deal with that, but it could be used properly for cool uses
2382 2011-04-24 18:52:05 <ArtForz> a new op people seem to want
2383 2011-04-24 18:52:11 <BlueMatt> devrandom: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6439.0
2384 2011-04-24 18:52:24 <ArtForz> same thing for adding support for pubkey-less signatures
2385 2011-04-24 18:52:43 <devrandom> so that would push the block timestamp on the stack?
2386 2011-04-24 18:52:46 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: you cant deny OP_TIMESTAMP wouldnt be somewhat useful?
2387 2011-04-24 18:52:59 <ArtForz> sure it would be
2388 2011-04-24 18:53:03 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yea, pretty much
2389 2011-04-24 18:53:04 <devrandom> what's the usecase?
2390 2011-04-24 18:53:11 <dotblank> Ideally what I would have done is strip any URI parsing from the bitcoin client/binary itself implement some DBUS API
2391 2011-04-24 18:53:27 <BlueMatt> devrandom: expiring coins...could be useful in many cases
2392 2011-04-24 18:53:31 <ArtForz> yep
2393 2011-04-24 18:53:33 <dotblank> let a different program handle the UEI and pass dbus events
2394 2011-04-24 18:53:44 <dotblank> URI*
2395 2011-04-24 18:53:59 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-252-3-151.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
2396 2011-04-24 18:54:05 <BlueMatt> dotblank: doesnt make much difference IMO
2397 2011-04-24 18:54:19 <luke-jr> dotblank: dbus is not portable
2398 2011-04-24 18:54:22 <devrandom> I see... so for example, a different recipient address after a certain time
2399 2011-04-24 18:54:22 <dotblank> that way any program on linux would be able to implement the dbus api and call functions on bitcoin
2400 2011-04-24 18:54:32 <dotblank> luke-jr, yea, that is true...
2401 2011-04-24 18:54:40 <luke-jr> dotblank: but that would make the developer trolling easier to workaround
2402 2011-04-24 18:55:19 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yep, pretty much
2403 2011-04-24 18:55:28 <ArtForz> expiring tx, tx that when signed by key A are only valid between X and Y, always valid signed by key B, ... I can see plenty of potential uses
2404 2011-04-24 18:55:48 <BlueMatt> in any case, we need to work on scripting to eventually get rid of IsStandard() first, so adding new ones is a long way off
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2406 2011-04-24 18:56:18 <ArtForz> well, isStandard really doesnt have much to do with scripting itself
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2408 2011-04-24 18:56:34 <devrandom> what's the main reason for IsStandard?
2409 2011-04-24 18:56:34 <BlueMatt> no, but we need to work on scripting before we remove the requirement
2410 2011-04-24 18:56:37 <BlueMatt> was my point
2411 2011-04-24 18:56:41 <devrandom> other than confusing blockexplorer
2412 2011-04-24 18:56:49 <ArtForz> iirc mainly to prevent alternate blockchain uses (aka bitdns)
2413 2011-04-24 18:57:45 <BlueMatt> let bitdns grow up then we can re-enable it
2414 2011-04-24 18:57:53 <devrandom> interesting... seems like the market would take care of alternative chain uses
2415 2011-04-24 18:57:55 <BlueMatt> maybe after someone has written bitcoin-generalized-storage
2416 2011-04-24 18:58:04 <nanotube> ArtForz: bitdns can work with std transactions...
2417 2011-04-24 18:58:11 dust- has joined
2418 2011-04-24 18:58:33 <ArtForz> because iirc after satoshi came up with the idea of parallel chains secured by the main chain PoW, consensus was that those should get their own chain
2419 2011-04-24 18:58:46 amiller has joined
2420 2011-04-24 18:59:09 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: does the current bitdns implementation use that?
2421 2011-04-24 18:59:14 <ArtForz> no clue
2422 2011-04-24 18:59:17 <BlueMatt> also...how does that work?
2423 2011-04-24 18:59:24 <ArtForz> basically have miners put the hashes of block headers for slave chains in the main chain coinbase
2424 2011-04-24 18:59:31 <BlueMatt> ah, ok
2425 2011-04-24 19:00:56 <devrandom> so namecoin disables IsStandard?
2426 2011-04-24 19:02:03 <ArtForz> which would have several obvious benefits
2427 2011-04-24 19:02:28 <ArtForz> as slave chains could get massive hashpower securing them by only providing a minimal reward
2428 2011-04-24 19:03:37 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2429 2011-04-24 19:03:54 <ArtForz> ofc adding support for that to bitcoin isnt exactly trivial
2430 2011-04-24 19:04:43 <BlueMatt> yep, no one ever cared enough to do it
2431 2011-04-24 19:06:17 amiller has joined
2432 2011-04-24 19:06:33 <devrandom> so what alt chain are out there?
2433 2011-04-24 19:07:27 <dotblank> Ah ok.. I get TonalBitcoins now.. I see how that can be usefull
2434 2011-04-24 19:07:52 <dotblank> after reading the wiki pages about it
2435 2011-04-24 19:11:56 <nanotube> ArtForz: yea, that's the only problem - how to create the 'bitx' chain, without having to reset the bitcoin mainchain...
2436 2011-04-24 19:11:57 <BlueMatt> dotblank: (written by luke-jr)
2437 2011-04-24 19:12:26 <ArtForz> nanotube: ?
2438 2011-04-24 19:13:02 <dotblank> but I don't see how it is a practical approach for everyday usage
2439 2011-04-24 19:13:10 wereHamster has quit (Quit: Changing server)
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2441 2011-04-24 19:13:33 <ArtForz> just putting a push (32 bytes bitx block header hash) in current chain coinbase txin should be okay for current clients
2442 2011-04-24 19:13:33 <dust-> luke-jr is the only person who promotes tonal
2443 2011-04-24 19:13:34 <dotblank> I think a tonal system of bitcoin will hurt early adoption of any URI scheme
2444 2011-04-24 19:13:37 <ArtForz> thoguh I didnt really check
2445 2011-04-24 19:13:47 <dotblank> It may actually be better
2446 2011-04-24 19:13:52 wereHams1er has joined
2447 2011-04-24 19:14:05 <luke-jr> dust-: or from the other perspective, luke-jr is the only person who promotes bitcoin
2448 2011-04-24 19:14:06 <dotblank> but sometimes people just live with an inferior qwerty keyboard
2449 2011-04-24 19:14:30 <nanotube> ArtForz: guess i don't really grok how it would be done. wouldn't all current clients need the ability to verify the alt chain? otherwise they'll just reject the 'random crap' ?
2450 2011-04-24 19:14:30 <luke-jr> dotblank: nobody has to use it
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2452 2011-04-24 19:14:36 <ArtForz> no
2453 2011-04-24 19:14:43 <luke-jr> dotblank: but the ability to use it will make bitcoin appeal to people who want to use tonal
2454 2011-04-24 19:14:47 <ArtForz> rmeember, current mainchain clients just ignore the stuff in coinbase txin
2455 2011-04-24 19:14:47 <luke-jr> or hexadecimal
2456 2011-04-24 19:15:44 <ArtForz> and yes, that means to verify altchain blcoks the altchain client needs the full bitcoinchain blocks
2457 2011-04-24 19:16:05 maikmerten has joined
2458 2011-04-24 19:16:53 <dotblank> luke-jr, I think hexidecimal would be the best way to notate it
2459 2011-04-24 19:17:02 <nanotube> ArtForz: aah sticking it into the coinbase, rather than the merkle tree - i see, clever. :)
2460 2011-04-24 19:17:10 <ArtForz> yep
2461 2011-04-24 19:17:27 <ArtForz> satoshi came up with it
2462 2011-04-24 19:17:27 <nanotube> so the bitdns people would just alter the miner to stick bitdns stuff into the coinbase, and keep mining on the 'main chain'...
2463 2011-04-24 19:17:37 <ArtForz> yep
2464 2011-04-24 19:17:40 <nanotube> all we'd need to do is have an exchange of bitdns messages on a separate p2p net
2465 2011-04-24 19:17:42 <luke-jr> dotblank: why change?
2466 2011-04-24 19:17:51 <ArtForz> yep, pretty much
2467 2011-04-24 19:17:56 <nanotube> with the associated verification, etc. i like
2468 2011-04-24 19:18:04 <luke-jr> dotblank: people using tonal are already using tonal notation
2469 2011-04-24 19:18:11 <dotblank> luke-jr, Well i'm more concerned about scheme/spec adoption
2470 2011-04-24 19:18:19 <luke-jr> dotblank: URI scheme only supports hex
2471 2011-04-24 19:18:26 <luke-jr> (and decimal ofc)
2472 2011-04-24 19:18:32 <luke-jr> not tonal
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2475 2011-04-24 19:18:55 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2476 2011-04-24 19:19:22 <ArtForz> well, probably because thatd be even crazier, unicode soup in URIs?
2477 2011-04-24 19:19:49 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/crosscompile :)
2478 2011-04-24 19:19:53 <BlueMatt> compiles great on ubuntu
2479 2011-04-24 19:19:57 <BlueMatt> (for win32)
2480 2011-04-24 19:20:06 <ArtForz> BlueMatt: cool
2481 2011-04-24 19:20:27 wereHams1er has joined
2482 2011-04-24 19:20:37 <dotblank> Yea I can't actually see lots of the tonal symbols
2483 2011-04-24 19:20:49 wereHams1er has quit (Client Quit)
2484 2011-04-24 19:21:21 <nanotube> ArtForz: (though iirc, satoshi was talking about changing the merkle tree, not sticking things into coinbase... that was my main confusion about how to make these things work. sticking stuff into coinbase - that makes it suddenly make sense. :) )
2485 2011-04-24 19:21:36 <ArtForz> iirc gavin said different
2486 2011-04-24 19:22:14 <ArtForz> all from memory, satoshis idea was to put the root hash of the merkle tree of a "bitx" like multi-chain system in coinbase
2487 2011-04-24 19:22:49 <ArtForz> normal bitcoin clients can just ignore it
2488 2011-04-24 19:23:08 <BlueMatt> ArtForz: care to explain exactly what coinbase is?
2489 2011-04-24 19:23:18 <nanotube> ok, then it was just my misunderstanding of initial reading of satoshi's proposal. anyway, coinbase method is great and makes perfect sense to me :)
2490 2011-04-24 19:23:18 <dotblank> Is there a reason we arn't using autotools?
2491 2011-04-24 19:23:19 <ArtForz> the 1st tx in a bitcoin block
2492 2011-04-24 19:23:23 <luke-jr> dotblank: http://luke.dashjr.org/education/tonal/glyphs/fonts/Luxi/LuxiTonal.ttf
2493 2011-04-24 19:23:25 <BlueMatt> ah
2494 2011-04-24 19:23:30 <BlueMatt> so the generate tx
2495 2011-04-24 19:23:33 <ArtForz> yep
2496 2011-04-24 19:23:47 <BlueMatt> dotblank: because it hasnt been written yet
2497 2011-04-24 19:23:48 <ArtForz> and as generation is "out of thin air", the input script isnt used
2498 2011-04-24 19:23:49 <BlueMatt> ok well it is now
2499 2011-04-24 19:24:00 <BlueMatt> but it is too late for 0.3.21
2500 2011-04-24 19:24:04 <nanotube> isn't the 'coinbase' just the 'input' side of generation tx, to be precise? or is that also used to denote the whole tx?
2501 2011-04-24 19:24:08 <BlueMatt> probably make it into the next version
2502 2011-04-24 19:24:16 <ArtForz> coinbase is the whole generation tx
2503 2011-04-24 19:24:23 <nanotube> ah ok
2504 2011-04-24 19:24:28 <ArtForz> at least bitcoin code terminology seems to say so
2505 2011-04-24 19:24:29 <nanotube> just getting my terms straight :)
2506 2011-04-24 19:24:29 <BlueMatt> where is it defined?
2507 2011-04-24 19:24:34 <BlueMatt> oh, in comments
2508 2011-04-24 19:24:35 <ArtForz> tx.isCoinBase() and friends
2509 2011-04-24 19:24:37 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2510 2011-04-24 19:24:51 * BlueMatt needs to sit down and read bitcoin code tree from start to finish sometime
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2518 2011-04-24 19:31:56 <BlueMatt> damn kernel, 1g swap used, 3g cache in mem wtf?
2519 2011-04-24 19:32:02 RBecker has joined
2520 2011-04-24 19:32:13 <ArtForz> yep
2521 2011-04-24 19:32:18 <BlueMatt> complete unresponsiveness
2522 2011-04-24 19:32:22 <ArtForz> eww
2523 2011-04-24 19:32:35 <BlueMatt> at least we have swapoff -a; swapon -a
2524 2011-04-24 19:32:49 <ArtForz> I only notice that with have high swappiness set
2525 2011-04-24 19:33:02 <BlueMatt> that was default swapiness for me
2526 2011-04-24 19:33:14 <BlueMatt> == 60
2527 2011-04-24 19:33:31 <ArtForz> well, or by really using a shitload of memory in one program, pushing everything else into swap, then that program terminates
2528 2011-04-24 19:33:57 <BlueMatt> that was just already using 4-5g, starting to compile bitcoin
2529 2011-04-24 19:34:10 <BlueMatt> bitcoin eats 1g and for some reason all of that ends up in swap
2530 2011-04-24 19:34:15 jav_ has joined
2531 2011-04-24 19:34:20 <ArtForz> you mean bitcoin binary?
2532 2011-04-24 19:34:28 <ArtForz> most of that is iirc not really swap
2533 2011-04-24 19:34:29 <BlueMatt> compiling
2534 2011-04-24 19:34:33 <ArtForz> oh, yeah
2535 2011-04-24 19:34:39 <BlueMatt> compiling via mingw specifically
2536 2011-04-24 19:34:45 <ArtForz> yep
2537 2011-04-24 19:34:59 <ArtForz> but whats the alternative? randomly swapping stuff back in?
2538 2011-04-24 19:35:13 <BlueMatt> droping 1g of that 3g cache
2539 2011-04-24 19:36:09 <ArtForz> hmm... yeah, that shouldnt happen
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2541 2011-04-24 19:36:10 <BlueMatt> instead of making me do it manually with swapoff; swapon
2542 2011-04-24 19:36:10 <ArtForz> when doing stuff like that, I see cache drop down to under 100M before program data gets swapped
2543 2011-04-24 19:36:12 <ArtForz> which imo is reasonable
2544 2011-04-24 19:36:20 <BlueMatt> yea, never seen it myself until now
2545 2011-04-24 19:36:23 devon_hillard has joined
2546 2011-04-24 19:36:46 <ArtForz> also with 60 swappiness
2547 2011-04-24 19:36:53 <ArtForz> so... huh. weird.
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2553 2011-04-24 19:42:54 <BlueMatt> wtf? bitcoin.exe built+stripped on linux == 8.6M, latest nightly built on winserv2003, 7.1M
2554 2011-04-24 19:43:11 <BlueMatt> and the one on linux has the needless wx png removed
2555 2011-04-24 19:43:36 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
2556 2011-04-24 19:44:20 programme_ has joined
2557 2011-04-24 19:44:40 <programme_> anyone here can help me to compile bitcoin on linux
2558 2011-04-24 19:44:57 <BlueMatt> programme_: sure
2559 2011-04-24 19:45:20 <programme_> BlueMatt: im installing wxWidgets now... ill let you know if i get any more compilations errors soon...
2560 2011-04-24 19:45:30 <programme_> BlueMatt: i run open suse 11.1
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2566 2011-04-24 19:50:12 <jav_> alrighty.. my new website just went live, maybe you guys could give me some feedback and stress-test it a little? It's a simple, low security online wallet with no signup required: http://www.instawallet.org
2567 2011-04-24 19:50:53 <nanotube> jav_: 'low security wallet'... i'm not sure i like the sound of that. :)
2568 2011-04-24 19:51:03 <jav_> hehe =)
2569 2011-04-24 19:51:48 <jav_> well.. right now it's missing SSL, but I probably get a certificate soon... otherwise it's "low security" in the sense, that access to your wallet is through a secret link, so you shouldn't let that leak
2570 2011-04-24 19:51:58 <BlueMatt> yay, low security, I love losing money :)
2571 2011-04-24 19:53:13 <rly> I am sure that nobody who works at an ISP is going to be interested in 200000BTC listed there.
2572 2011-04-24 19:53:15 <sgornick> jav_: I for one, think this is awesome. So for promotional giveaways perhaps.
2573 2011-04-24 19:53:18 zyb has joined
2574 2011-04-24 19:53:28 <rly> /sarcasm
2575 2011-04-24 19:53:33 AFK_PHPAdam has joined
2576 2011-04-24 19:53:45 <BlueMatt> rly: I was mostly sarcastic, I agree with sgornick I think it looks really cool
2577 2011-04-24 19:53:48 AFK_PHPAdam is now known as H4U
2578 2011-04-24 19:53:54 <jav_> sgornick: thx :-) .. that's kind of what I'm aiming for... just for someone trying out Bitcoin and looking for a place to tunnel 0.05 BTC through
2579 2011-04-24 19:53:58 <nanotube> once you add ssl, should be fine. 'secret link' is as good as 'secret password'
2580 2011-04-24 19:54:21 <BlueMatt> except people cant reuse the secret link on 100 other different websites
2581 2011-04-24 19:54:31 <jav_> :-)
2582 2011-04-24 19:55:07 <nanotube> haha you mean i can't set my facebook pw to "instawallet.org/w/f3297734ac49c19410" ?
2583 2011-04-24 19:55:08 <nanotube> :)
2584 2011-04-24 19:55:18 <nanotube> 500: Internal Server Error <-- jav_
2585 2011-04-24 19:55:20 <sgornick> so what's the math ... how log to access all the addresses?
2586 2011-04-24 19:55:31 <jav_> ...aaand it crashed bitcoind :-/
2587 2011-04-24 19:55:42 <BlueMatt> lol
2588 2011-04-24 19:56:47 <sgornick> jav_: Man, don't forget the URL though ... or the money's gone gone gone.
2589 2011-04-24 19:57:29 <jav_> jav_: indeed =) .. it's stored in a cookie though, so it will remember you... I guess that's a little "low security" as well, since you will be auto-logged in in a way
2590 2011-04-24 19:57:52 <jav_> that shoud have been @sgornick
2591 2011-04-24 19:57:55 <BlueMatt> yea cookie might not be the best idea either
2592 2011-04-24 19:58:53 <jav_> I'll have to take it offline again for now... don't want to have bitcoind crashing on me, since that will affect bitcoinmonitor.com as well
2593 2011-04-24 19:58:53 <sgornick> jav_: How about adding an optional email address or some unique so that I can see all the ones I create, and whether the funds have been claimed. For a giveaway I want to say expires by a certain date, and then can transfer back any funds that weren't claimed by the expiry.
2594 2011-04-24 20:00:17 <BlueMatt> jav_: I think as a start this is brilliant, but once a user gets started it would be nice if they can add a un/pw to the existing account
2595 2011-04-24 20:00:29 Marcel has joined
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2598 2011-04-24 20:01:17 <jav_> yes.. I was thinking something similar... you could turn your automatically assigned wallet into a proper one with user/pass
2599 2011-04-24 20:01:35 <sgornick> jav_: will there be a fee?
2600 2011-04-24 20:01:39 <jav_> so you are quickly up and running and if you want to get serious, you go to the trouble of signing up
2601 2011-04-24 20:01:50 <BlueMatt> brilliant
2602 2011-04-24 20:01:56 <BlueMatt> more web sites need to work like that
2603 2011-04-24 20:03:00 <jav_> sgornick: I don't really want to take any fees... but one idea I was having: maybe I'll do it in such a way, that if someone wants to add a fee to a transaction, that I'll take a percentage of that.
2604 2011-04-24 20:04:11 <jav_> since they are anyway "paying to use the Bitcoin network" at that moment, it seems like a good opportunity to tag on an onlinet wallet fee
2605 2011-04-24 20:04:55 <genjix> so MAX_MONEY = 21 million... does that mean bitcoins are capped at 21 million or is that just a rough estimate?
2606 2011-04-24 20:05:10 <BlueMatt> capped
2607 2011-04-24 20:05:15 <B0g4r7> precise
2608 2011-04-24 20:05:24 redengin has quit (Quit: AndroIRC)
2609 2011-04-24 20:05:28 <genjix> afaik it's an infinite series of 50/2^n
2610 2011-04-24 20:05:38 <ArtForz> not quite infinite
2611 2011-04-24 20:05:54 <genjix> so it will stop when 50/2^n < 1?
2612 2011-04-24 20:06:01 <ArtForz> < 1e-8
2613 2011-04-24 20:06:07 <genjix> oh right ofc
2614 2011-04-24 20:06:10 <jav_> but first things first.. I have to get this rock-stable, probably getting issue #185 is needed
2615 2011-04-24 20:06:20 <genjix> so MAX_MONEY isn't accurate
2616 2011-04-24 20:06:54 <ArtForz> nope, I think thats the limit if it actually were a infinite series
2617 2011-04-24 20:07:03 <genjix> aha
2618 2011-04-24 20:08:37 <tcatm> MAX_MONEY *should* be 2099999997690000
2619 2011-04-24 20:08:52 <genjix> yep thought so
2620 2011-04-24 20:09:18 <ArtForz> yep
2621 2011-04-24 20:09:43 <ArtForz> wjich imo is "close enough" to 2100000000000000
2622 2011-04-24 20:11:15 <tcatm> yep, in theory it's 21M if we wouldn't lose some fractions of coins because of integer conversion in reward = int(x >> y)
2623 2011-04-24 20:11:16 <genjix> what is nLockTime under CTransaction for?
2624 2011-04-24 20:11:39 <ArtForz> currently, nothing
2625 2011-04-24 20:13:02 henchan has joined
2626 2011-04-24 20:14:34 DavidSJ has joined
2627 2011-04-24 20:14:41 <luke-jr> tcatm: which is because you're using decimal
2628 2011-04-24 20:14:46 cuddlefish has joined
2629 2011-04-24 20:14:50 <tcatm> luke-jr: huh?
2630 2011-04-24 20:15:03 <genjix> he means tonal
2631 2011-04-24 20:15:15 <tcatm> it doesn't really matter which base I use when calculating a sum
2632 2011-04-24 20:15:24 <luke-jr> tcatm: if the reward were a nice round number, it would come out nice and even
2633 2011-04-24 20:15:36 <ArtForz> no it wouldnt
2634 2011-04-24 20:16:10 <ArtForz> 10000 + 1000 + 100 + 10 + 1 = 11111
2635 2011-04-24 20:16:43 <ArtForz> and for luke, no thats not eeevil decimal, it's binary
2636 2011-04-24 20:16:47 <ArtForz> same shit
2637 2011-04-24 20:17:31 <tcatm> Maybe luke meant that with a different reward the theoretical sum would match the real sum?
2638 2011-04-24 20:17:32 <rly> Isn't tonal an extremely stupid idea?
2639 2011-04-24 20:18:02 <ArtForz> the theoretical sum in that binary example is 100000
2640 2011-04-24 20:18:27 <genjix> the halving is done as a series based on block count or time?
2641 2011-04-24 20:18:33 <ArtForz> block count
2642 2011-04-24 20:18:36 <genjix> i think it's every 20k blocks
2643 2011-04-24 20:18:38 <genjix> 200k
2644 2011-04-24 20:18:40 <ArtForz> halving every 210000 blocks
2645 2011-04-24 20:18:41 <tcatm> 21k
2646 2011-04-24 20:18:46 <genjix> ok
2647 2011-04-24 20:19:21 <tcatm> reward = 50e8 >> int(height >> 21e4)
2648 2011-04-24 20:19:38 <tcatm> s/>> 2/\/ 2/
2649 2011-04-24 20:20:55 <BlueMatt> yay now I can ditch this stupid windows server and just work in linux :)
2650 2011-04-24 20:20:57 <genjix> thanks
2651 2011-04-24 20:21:59 <luke-jr> ArtForz: 10000 isn't round
2652 2011-04-24 20:22:10 <ArtForz> it isn't ?
2653 2011-04-24 20:22:26 <luke-jr> no
2654 2011-04-24 20:22:29 <ArtForz> what is round in your world? 0?
2655 2011-04-24 20:22:44 <genjix> O
2656 2011-04-24 20:22:45 <luke-jr> 0, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, â¦
2657 2011-04-24 20:22:56 <ArtForz> <ArtForz> and for luke, no thats not eeevil decimal, it's binary
2658 2011-04-24 20:23:41 <luke-jr> oh, you're saying binary 11111 is 1 off from 100000
2659 2011-04-24 20:23:43 <luke-jr> nm
2660 2011-04-24 20:23:46 <ArtForz> yep
2661 2011-04-24 20:23:55 <luke-jr> 1 off is a lot better than some weird number we have now though
2662 2011-04-24 20:23:59 <ArtForz> you always get a sum of 2**(n+1)-1
2663 2011-04-24 20:24:19 <ArtForz> if you start with n bits
2664 2011-04-24 20:25:34 <ArtForz> and imo the /2 every x blocks is a bad idea
2665 2011-04-24 20:25:45 <ArtForz> way too discontinous
2666 2011-04-24 20:26:09 <BlueMatt> discontinuous is better for people IMHO
2667 2011-04-24 20:26:42 <ArtForz> how?
2668 2011-04-24 20:26:54 programme_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2669 2011-04-24 20:27:13 <BlueMatt> Id rather be able to say, I get exactly 50 for the next x blocks than well I get something like 49.996845 for this one and a tiny bet less the next
2670 2011-04-24 20:27:18 <genjix> smoother curve = less disruptive to the economy
2671 2011-04-24 20:27:24 <ArtForz> yeah
2672 2011-04-24 20:27:25 <cosurgi> I got a question about `data` for hashing.
2673 2011-04-24 20:27:31 <BlueMatt> though I do see the problem
2674 2011-04-24 20:27:48 <nanotube> ArtForz: market will adjust for the discontinuity... so there shouldn't really be a problem.
2675 2011-04-24 20:27:54 <cosurgi> DATA : 000002800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080000000_nonce__~~nBits~===sec==__what__
2676 2011-04-24 20:28:05 programme has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2677 2011-04-24 20:28:10 <cosurgi> what is nBits, and what is `what` ?
2678 2011-04-24 20:28:11 <ArtForz> yeah, but imo it'll still cause jumps in hashrate and value
2679 2011-04-24 20:28:54 <ArtForz> and quite possibly a large slowdown in block creation until difficulty adjusts
2680 2011-04-24 20:29:01 <cosurgi> ==sec== is a unix timestamp, that's what I know.
2681 2011-04-24 20:29:10 <ArtForz> wrong
2682 2011-04-24 20:29:15 <cosurgi> nBits is the extra nonce?
2683 2011-04-24 20:29:29 <rly> nBits is probably the number of bits.
2684 2011-04-24 20:29:35 <ArtForz> data is just the block header
2685 2011-04-24 20:29:41 <ArtForz> nBits is the compact encoding of target
2686 2011-04-24 20:29:51 <cosurgi> ok.
2687 2011-04-24 20:30:07 d2rkc0r3 has quit (Quit: goodbye everyone. This username is dead. You will never see me again)
2688 2011-04-24 20:30:07 <rly> You mean 32 or 64?
2689 2011-04-24 20:30:24 <ArtForz> basically, iirc target = (nBits & 0xFFFFFF) << (8 * ((nbits >> 24) - 3))
2690 2011-04-24 20:30:26 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2691 2011-04-24 20:30:39 <ArtForz> sec
2692 2011-04-24 20:30:48 <ArtForz> that what is the last dword of hashmerkleroot
2693 2011-04-24 20:30:57 <genjix> is nSequence in TxIn the count for the position of that tx it's attached to in the block chain?
2694 2011-04-24 20:31:37 <ArtForz> sec is unix timestamp
2695 2011-04-24 20:32:02 <genjix> because i see comparing the times of 2 transactions involves finding the lowest common denominator between each of their CTxIn::nSequence
2696 2011-04-24 20:32:17 <cosurgi> DATA : 000002800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080000000_nonce__~target~==time==_merkle_
2697 2011-04-24 20:32:20 <cosurgi> thanks.
2698 2011-04-24 20:32:27 <cosurgi> and all that "000002800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080000000" is really never changing? Even when a new bitcoin client/server are released?
2699 2011-04-24 20:32:31 <ArtForz> yes
2700 2011-04-24 20:32:39 <ArtForz> well, it could change if the size of the block header changes
2701 2011-04-24 20:32:48 <ArtForz> but thats completely breaking compatibility
2702 2011-04-24 20:33:03 <cosurgi> ok.
2703 2011-04-24 20:34:05 <cosurgi> so in fact we are hashing on 384 bits. Or to be more precise: on 352 to find the remaining 32 bits.
2704 2011-04-24 20:35:01 <cosurgi> another question: getWork returns data 1024 bits long, but we always skip first 512 bits. Why?
2705 2011-04-24 20:35:34 <BlueMatt> who the hell took the time to write a tab-complete script for scp in ubuntu's default bash (it laggs like hell when you press tab as it connects to the server and lists directories)
2706 2011-04-24 20:36:17 <ArtForz> because the hash of the first 512 bits is MidState
2707 2011-04-24 20:36:39 <cosurgi> ok, that's what I was thinking. Thanks
2708 2011-04-24 20:37:20 <cosurgi> it's a single sha256 on hose 512 bits, or double?
2709 2011-04-24 20:37:25 <cosurgi> s/hose/those/
2710 2011-04-24 20:37:32 <ArtForz> double
2711 2011-04-24 20:37:37 <cosurgi> ok.
2712 2011-04-24 20:37:46 <ArtForz> well, first hash those 512 bits with A...H initialized to midstate
2713 2011-04-24 20:38:26 <cosurgi> no,no. I'm asking about midstate. Or I'm lost.
2714 2011-04-24 20:38:41 <ArtForz> look at the sha256 block function on WP
2715 2011-04-24 20:38:58 <cosurgi> to generate midstate, we take those first 512 bits, and sha256 them.
2716 2011-04-24 20:39:06 <ArtForz> midstate is h0..7 after processing the first 512 bit block
2717 2011-04-24 20:39:09 <cosurgi> we midstate is being generate, we don't have midstate
2718 2011-04-24 20:39:36 <cosurgi> yes. But I'm asking about earlier process, the one that makes midstate.
2719 2011-04-24 20:39:47 <cosurgi> s/we/when/
2720 2011-04-24 20:39:54 <ArtForz> start with default sha256 init w0..7, ahsh first 512 bit block
2721 2011-04-24 20:39:59 <ArtForz> result is midstate
2722 2011-04-24 20:40:15 <cosurgi> single sha256 run, to make midstate?
2723 2011-04-24 20:40:20 <ArtForz> yes
2724 2011-04-24 20:40:23 <cosurgi> ok.
2725 2011-04-24 20:40:28 <cosurgi> clear now :)
2726 2011-04-24 20:40:43 <ArtForz> now we take the h0..7 after doing the second block
2727 2011-04-24 20:41:08 <ArtForz> pad it to 512 bits with 8000000.....000100
2728 2011-04-24 20:41:28 <ArtForz> and hash that one with h0..7 inited to sha init h0..7
2729 2011-04-24 20:41:34 <ArtForz> thats the outer hash
2730 2011-04-24 20:41:51 <ArtForz> resulting h0..7 is then compared to target
2731 2011-04-24 20:42:22 programme has joined
2732 2011-04-24 20:42:36 <cosurgi> ok, thanks a lot :)
2733 2011-04-24 20:42:49 <cosurgi> I wonder why getWork isn't documented on our wiki
2734 2011-04-24 20:43:02 <programme> cosurgi: i wonder the same hehe
2735 2011-04-24 20:43:05 <ArtForz> it isn't?
2736 2011-04-24 20:43:15 <ArtForz> yeah, someone should document it
2737 2011-04-24 20:43:20 <programme> cosurgi: i think its one of the more important functions and its not very well documented
2738 2011-04-24 20:43:39 <cosurgi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list <- find getWork here
2739 2011-04-24 20:43:52 <cosurgi> like one of most important :)
2740 2011-04-24 20:44:01 <ArtForz> for miners
2741 2011-04-24 20:44:06 <ArtForz> for everyone else, it's useless
2742 2011-04-24 20:44:07 <cosurgi> yeah
2743 2011-04-24 20:44:11 <cosurgi> heh
2744 2011-04-24 20:44:18 <cosurgi> we, the miners.
2745 2011-04-24 20:45:38 <ArtForz> hehehe
2746 2011-04-24 20:45:41 sacarlson has joined
2747 2011-04-24 20:46:14 <ArtForz> well, at least we don't have a union yet *ducks*
2748 2011-04-24 20:46:56 <programme> error db_cxx.h no such file or directory when trying to compile bitcoin on linux wierd
2749 2011-04-24 20:47:00 <cosurgi> lol :-D
2750 2011-04-24 20:48:43 <programme> anyone knows how to solve it
2751 2011-04-24 20:48:45 <programme> BlueMatt
2752 2011-04-24 20:49:04 <ArtForz> programme: instad libdb-c++-dev ?
2753 2011-04-24 20:49:11 <ArtForz> or whatever your distro calls it
2754 2011-04-24 20:49:25 <BlueMatt> ^
2755 2011-04-24 20:49:27 <programme> i need to install that lib?
2756 2011-04-24 20:49:35 <ArtForz> the headers
2757 2011-04-24 20:49:46 <programme> im open suse 11.1
2758 2011-04-24 20:49:48 <BlueMatt> bdb the lib + headers for c++
2759 2011-04-24 20:49:57 <ArtForz> yep
2760 2011-04-24 20:50:10 <ArtForz> on debian e.g the header package is called libdb4.7++-dev
2761 2011-04-24 20:50:18 <programme> ok let me see
2762 2011-04-24 20:51:12 <programme> libdb-4.5-devel on opensuse? that might be isnt ?
2763 2011-04-24 20:51:38 <BlueMatt> look for one with a ++ in it
2764 2011-04-24 20:51:47 <BlueMatt> and should be 4.7
2765 2011-04-24 20:52:08 <programme> ok ill see and let you know thanks
2766 2011-04-24 20:52:26 <programme> im want to become bitcoin expert programmer but first in need to compile it lol
2767 2011-04-24 20:52:51 <programme> i have been programming 14 years now
2768 2011-04-24 20:53:02 <ArtForz> only?
2769 2011-04-24 20:53:18 <programme> yes
2770 2011-04-24 20:53:31 <ArtForz> neat
2771 2011-04-24 20:54:24 jav_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2772 2011-04-24 20:55:38 <programme> i found only that one and installed it but it still doesnt work
2773 2011-04-24 20:55:44 <programme> ill see if i can download some tar.gz
2774 2011-04-24 20:56:16 jav_ has joined
2775 2011-04-24 20:56:59 <ArtForz> if your system is that ancient, you'll probably have to compile your own bdb from source
2776 2011-04-24 20:58:13 <programme> ArtForz: do you know where i can download dbd to compile from source
2777 2011-04-24 20:58:23 <programme> its opensuse 11.1
2778 2011-04-24 20:58:33 <programme> its supposed the package manager
2779 2011-04-24 20:58:37 <programme> should provide me it
2780 2011-04-24 20:58:39 <programme> but it doesnt
2781 2011-04-24 20:59:07 cuddlefish has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2782 2011-04-24 20:59:26 <ArtForz> well, the source tgz is at http://download.oracle.com/berkeley-db/db-4.7.25.tar.gz
2783 2011-04-24 20:59:35 <ArtForz> if you really want to build your own bdb
2784 2011-04-24 21:00:02 <programme> i installed db-5.1.19
2785 2011-04-24 21:00:08 <programme> and it didnt work
2786 2011-04-24 21:00:10 <programme> is it the same
2787 2011-04-24 21:00:13 <ArtForz> no
2788 2011-04-24 21:00:14 <programme> or i need to downgrade
2789 2011-04-24 21:00:19 <ArtForz> yep
2790 2011-04-24 21:00:25 <ArtForz> that's bdb 5.1, we use 4.x
2791 2011-04-24 21:00:28 <ArtForz> specifically 4.7
2792 2011-04-24 21:00:45 <ArtForz> because db log file format isnt compatible between 4.x and 4.y
2793 2011-04-24 21:00:52 <programme> i see
2794 2011-04-24 21:00:58 <programme> okay thanks ill downgrade
2795 2011-04-24 21:01:16 <ArtForz> and iirc 5.x breaks db main file format compatibility
2796 2011-04-24 21:01:32 <ArtForz> at least thats the usual bdb rules
2797 2011-04-24 21:02:29 <ArtForz> x.y.z, all files compatible between zs, y can break log file compat, x can break any compat (and can do breaking API changes and other stuff)
2798 2011-04-24 21:03:39 <programme> i see
2799 2011-04-24 21:03:43 JSharp has joined
2800 2011-04-24 21:03:51 <programme> ArtForz: do you know about pushpool
2801 2011-04-24 21:04:04 <ArtForz> read about it, never really looked into it much
2802 2011-04-24 21:04:30 <programme> ArtForz: its supposed to be a pooler proxy to bitcoind thats why im trying to compile bitcoind too
2803 2011-04-24 21:04:41 <programme> because i need to configure pushpool to connect via rpc to bitcoind
2804 2011-04-24 21:05:15 <rly> BDB is unreliable in my experience as a user. Is it really unreliable or were those applications just bad?
2805 2011-04-24 21:05:57 <BlueMatt> bdb is probably the most reliable db ever written
2806 2011-04-24 21:06:00 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
2807 2011-04-24 21:06:46 <rly> I have never ever had to manually fix another DB.
2808 2011-04-24 21:07:09 <rly> For BDB I have used multiple versions of their fix tool.
2809 2011-04-24 21:07:28 <BlueMatt> well for bdb typically the software comes linked to a specific version so its never a problem
2810 2011-04-24 21:07:45 <BlueMatt> just for people who want to compile stuff from source
2811 2011-04-24 21:08:00 <BlueMatt> and for things with a real build system its also not a problem
2812 2011-04-24 21:08:02 <rly> Google: bdb corrupt.
2813 2011-04-24 21:08:04 <BlueMatt> which leaves...bitcoin
2814 2011-04-24 21:08:28 <BlueMatt> rly: any db can become corrupt
2815 2011-04-24 21:08:32 <rly> Then again, Google: mysql corrupt is also pretty bad.
2816 2011-04-24 21:08:41 <BlueMatt> bdb and mysql are very different
2817 2011-04-24 21:08:46 <rly> Although, I would expect mysql being used more.
2818 2011-04-24 21:08:46 <jav_> i have a feeling that all that CRITICAL_BLOCK stuff will bite us again and again... how many threads are needed? not regarding the miner, couldn't it be done in an event-based way?
2819 2011-04-24 21:08:50 <BlueMatt> in fact mysql can use bdb as a storage engine
2820 2011-04-24 21:09:04 <ArtForz> jav_: yes
2821 2011-04-24 21:09:05 <rly> BlueMatt: which data structure does bdb provide then?
2822 2011-04-24 21:09:08 <BlueMatt> bdb is more analogous to sqlite
2823 2011-04-24 21:09:27 <BlueMatt> mysql is like bdb + a ton of frontend
2824 2011-04-24 21:09:31 <BlueMatt> bdb is just the backend
2825 2011-04-24 21:10:51 <jav_> ArtForz: you were saying earlier that it's ok to acquire the same lock twice... so is it ok to do cs_main; cs_mapWallet; cs_main; cs_mapWallet?
2826 2011-04-24 21:11:00 <cosurgi> anyone knows if Diablo added nTime incrementing in his miner (long pooling, or whatever it's called) - to reduce number of requests to the server?
2827 2011-04-24 21:11:16 <ArtForz> yes
2828 2011-04-24 21:11:25 <cosurgi> ok.
2829 2011-04-24 21:11:41 <ArtForz> taking the lock more than once just increments it's "times taken" count
2830 2011-04-24 21:12:29 <cosurgi> because I see that submitted solution has different ==time==, then the one in getwork. But I see that it also has a different _merkle_, how is that possible?
2831 2011-04-24 21:12:58 <cosurgi> "last dword of hashmerkleroot" I mean
2832 2011-04-24 21:13:02 <ArtForz> doesnt diablo keep 3 getworks in-flight al lthe time?
2833 2011-04-24 21:13:15 <cosurgi> oh. maybe.
2834 2011-04-24 21:13:41 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2835 2011-04-24 21:13:50 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2836 2011-04-24 21:14:25 <BlueMatt> anyone think its worth pullreq'ing the crosscompile branch, or just leave it?
2837 2011-04-24 21:15:08 <jav_> ArtForz: ok, I see.. in the debugger I see that the hanging call to "getaccountaddress" waits on the lock cs_main in db.cpp:956 ... but the rpc method already acquired the cs_main look... so that must be another thread then? I'm confused
2838 2011-04-24 21:15:33 NickelBot has joined
2839 2011-04-24 21:15:54 <ArtForz> yea
2840 2011-04-24 21:16:50 sethsethseth has joined
2841 2011-04-24 21:17:36 <genjix> hey sethsethseth
2842 2011-04-24 21:17:47 <genjix> will IsStandard ever be removed?
2843 2011-04-24 21:18:11 <BlueMatt> genjix: probably eventually
2844 2011-04-24 21:18:15 <genjix> to re-enable script would the whole newttwork have to upgrade, right?
2845 2011-04-24 21:18:17 <ArtForz> so something lese is already holding cs_main, but then how did we get in there?
2846 2011-04-24 21:18:31 <BlueMatt> genjix: IIRC just miners
2847 2011-04-24 21:18:34 <ArtForz> getaccountaddress should have already taken cs_main
2848 2011-04-24 21:18:38 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2849 2011-04-24 21:18:47 <genjix> yeah so if i was using script now then my money would be worthless
2850 2011-04-24 21:19:10 <genjix> that sucks
2851 2011-04-24 21:19:20 <BlueMatt> no
2852 2011-04-24 21:19:22 sethsethseth____ has joined
2853 2011-04-24 21:19:24 <jav_> BlueMatt: I think being able to cross-compile for windows is very convenient... building on windows seems like a huge hassle, judging from your post on the forum
2854 2011-04-24 21:19:42 <BlueMatt> jav_: its not much easier to crosscompile
2855 2011-04-24 21:19:43 <genjix> hey sethsethseth____
2856 2011-04-24 21:19:45 <ArtForz> are you running git head?
2857 2011-04-24 21:19:47 <BlueMatt> if you were using scripts right now you would just have to find a miner who accepts them
2858 2011-04-24 21:19:59 <jav_> BlueMatt: aw, I see =)
2859 2011-04-24 21:20:02 <BlueMatt> your coins would still be coins
2860 2011-04-24 21:20:08 <BlueMatt> just harder to accept
2861 2011-04-24 21:20:13 <jav_> ArtForz: yes
2862 2011-04-24 21:20:16 <genjix> kk
2863 2011-04-24 21:20:36 <genjix> but then other clients wouldn't recognise the transactions i don't think.
2864 2011-04-24 21:20:44 <jav_> ArtForz: i reported the bug here, btw: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/185
2865 2011-04-24 21:21:08 sethsethseth has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2866 2011-04-24 21:22:41 <jav_> BlueMatt: I would probably still prefer a complicated procedure on Linux for one on Windows... but that's just me, being more comfortable with Linux... but usually you can script it or whatever, so it's easier to duplicate ... but then again, I'm not really that interested in the Windows binaries, so can't think of a reason right now, why I would want to build for Windows
2867 2011-04-24 21:22:52 <ArtForz> waaait a second
2868 2011-04-24 21:22:58 <ArtForz> is this on windows?
2869 2011-04-24 21:23:20 <jav_> ArtForz: the bug I'm talking about? no, it's under Debian Squeeze
2870 2011-04-24 21:23:45 <BlueMatt> jav_: well my main goals were being able to build for windows deterministically (ie the same every time via scripts) so that devrandom's stuff can work for that too
2871 2011-04-24 21:23:46 <ArtForz> huh
2872 2011-04-24 21:23:57 <BlueMatt> I was just wondering if I should submit a pull req for it or not
2873 2011-04-24 21:24:00 tenach has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2874 2011-04-24 21:25:13 inductor has joined
2875 2011-04-24 21:26:04 <jav_> BlueMatt: what is devrandom doing?
2876 2011-04-24 21:26:22 <BlueMatt> jav_: deterministic building
2877 2011-04-24 21:27:09 <devrandom> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2926.msg42710#msg42710
2878 2011-04-24 21:28:10 <BlueMatt> devrandom: you saw that I got it to x-compile properly (all parts)
2879 2011-04-24 21:28:12 <B0g4r7> How does withdrawing $800+ from mtgox by ACH work?
2880 2011-04-24 21:28:25 <devrandom> BlueMatt - really? that's excellent
2881 2011-04-24 21:28:29 <B0g4r7> I tried emailing them to inquire, but no reply yet.
2882 2011-04-24 21:28:32 <BlueMatt> devrandom: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/crosscompile
2883 2011-04-24 21:28:45 <BlueMatt> B0g4r7: ask for MagicalTux on here or #bitcoin-otc
2884 2011-04-24 21:28:57 Lartza has joined
2885 2011-04-24 21:29:05 <BlueMatt> B0g4r7: and the guys on -otc can probably answer anyway
2886 2011-04-24 21:29:10 <B0g4r7> thx
2887 2011-04-24 21:30:02 <devrandom> BlueMatt - what are the del /Q at the bottom of the makefile?
2888 2011-04-24 21:30:05 tabsa has joined
2889 2011-04-24 21:30:19 <BlueMatt> devrandom: oh sorry thats the win clean crap, those should be rm's
2890 2011-04-24 21:31:05 <BlueMatt> fixed
2891 2011-04-24 21:31:07 <devrandom> now if we only we had some unit tests, we could check if it works ;)
2892 2011-04-24 21:31:12 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2893 2011-04-24 21:31:32 <BlueMatt> well it falls under works for me right now, but im trying it on my build server so Ill see if it works on 2 ubuntu installs
2894 2011-04-24 21:31:43 <BlueMatt> all you should need is mingw32 from the repo and the instructions
2895 2011-04-24 21:32:58 warpi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2896 2011-04-24 21:33:07 <devrandom> BlueMatt - so should I create a gitian descriptor for it?
2897 2011-04-24 21:33:27 <BlueMatt> if you want, Im still trying to decide if I should send off a pull request for it
2898 2011-04-24 21:34:06 <BlueMatt> takes forever to build though
2899 2011-04-24 21:34:20 <BlueMatt> wx + boost + bdb + openssl + bitcoin
2900 2011-04-24 21:35:00 <devrandom> oh, right, need to build all deps...
2901 2011-04-24 21:35:40 <devrandom> maybe it's time to separate out the deps build
2902 2011-04-24 21:35:56 <BlueMatt> maybe
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2911 2011-04-24 21:51:59 <jav_> ArtForz: another thread seems to be hanging at main.cpp:94
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2914 2011-04-24 21:52:43 <ArtForz> that kidna makes sense
2915 2011-04-24 21:54:05 <jav_> how so?
2916 2011-04-24 21:54:05 <ArtForz> well, maybe
2917 2011-04-24 21:54:29 <ArtForz> whats the call stack of that one?
2918 2011-04-24 21:55:10 <ArtForz> okay
2919 2011-04-24 21:55:15 <ArtForz> nm
2920 2011-04-24 21:55:21 <ArtForz> thats called from LoadWallet
2921 2011-04-24 21:55:24 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: latest nightlies on win32 work just fine :)
2922 2011-04-24 21:55:37 <BlueMatt> (and are compile on linux)
2923 2011-04-24 21:56:54 <jav_> ArtForz: I think this is the call stack: http://pastebin.com/bmT0U6KU .. maybe? hm, I really have zero experience in debugging threaded applications
2924 2011-04-24 21:57:06 Lartza has quit (Quit: Lähdössä)
2925 2011-04-24 21:57:58 <ArtForz> thats just the main thread
2926 2011-04-24 21:58:10 <BlueMatt> yay, linux-build binaries function identically to the official ones
2927 2011-04-24 21:58:25 <BlueMatt> havent been able to hit that target building on windows yet
2928 2011-04-24 21:58:27 <BlueMatt> linux ftw
2929 2011-04-24 21:58:45 <ArtForz> jav_: sec: I think I might know what's going on, looks like we might have another deadlock
2930 2011-04-24 21:59:23 <ArtForz> btw, is that bitcoind or bitcoin-gui ?
2931 2011-04-24 21:59:30 <jav_> bitcoind
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2933 2011-04-24 22:01:00 <ArtForz> hrrrm
2934 2011-04-24 22:01:46 tenach has joined
2935 2011-04-24 22:02:08 <ArtForz> I'll have to do some testing
2936 2011-04-24 22:02:33 <ArtForz> but I think it might be a deadlock involving cs_mapKeys
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2943 2011-04-24 22:08:04 <BlueMatt> jaromil: ping
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2955 2011-04-24 22:15:23 <ArtForz> jav_: yep, I can reproduce it
2956 2011-04-24 22:17:42 skyewm has joined
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2958 2011-04-24 22:20:08 <programme> ArtForz: i installed db-4.7.25 however i still get the db_cxx.h not found error weird
2959 2011-04-24 22:20:26 <BlueMatt> programme: did you install the c++ headers as well?
2960 2011-04-24 22:20:31 <BlueMatt> or did you build from source?
2961 2011-04-24 22:20:54 <programme> i downloaded it fromhttp://download.oracle.com/berkeley-db/db-4.7.25.tar.gz and run make install on it
2962 2011-04-24 22:21:00 BERRI has joined
2963 2011-04-24 22:21:05 <programme> configure, make make install
2964 2011-04-24 22:21:31 <BlueMatt> programme: you should have done ./configure --enable-cxx then make
2965 2011-04-24 22:21:44 <programme> i see
2966 2011-04-24 22:21:45 <programme> let me do it
2967 2011-04-24 22:21:49 <BlueMatt> or more specifically cd db-4.7.NC/build_unix
2968 2011-04-24 22:21:53 <BlueMatt> ../dist/configure --enable-cxx
2969 2011-04-24 22:21:54 <BlueMatt> make
2970 2011-04-24 22:21:58 <programme> okay
2971 2011-04-24 22:21:59 <programme> thxs
2972 2011-04-24 22:22:02 <programme> ill do it and let you know
2973 2011-04-24 22:22:12 theymos has joined
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2975 2011-04-24 22:23:24 <theymos> Can anyone explain to me the effects of the SIGHASH types?
2976 2011-04-24 22:26:08 <nanotube> sirius: hey ping - btw might want to update the channel list on bitcoin.org and s/-discussion// now that we have #bitcoin.
2977 2011-04-24 22:26:37 <BlueMatt> nanotube: hey, when did we get #bitcoin?
2978 2011-04-24 22:26:52 dust- has joined
2979 2011-04-24 22:28:53 <nanotube> BlueMatt: a few days ago
2980 2011-04-24 22:30:42 AmpEater has joined
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2982 2011-04-24 22:35:50 <programme> BlueMatt: still the same however...
2983 2011-04-24 22:36:08 <BlueMatt> programme: really?
2984 2011-04-24 22:36:12 <BlueMatt> and you make install
2985 2011-04-24 22:36:16 <BlueMatt> ed it after making it?
2986 2011-04-24 22:36:29 <programme> seems like the file db_cxx.h is on usr local Berkeley include cp_xxx.h
2987 2011-04-24 22:36:31 <programme> its there but
2988 2011-04-24 22:36:45 <programme> seems like for some reason when i make bitcoin it doesnt includes it or doesnt finds it
2989 2011-04-24 22:37:07 <programme> to make bitcoin i run make -f makefile.unix
2990 2011-04-24 22:37:24 <jav_> ArtForz: are you also seeing this backtrace http://pastebin.com/fmDFGUf0 ? that's from the RPC thread
2991 2011-04-24 22:37:31 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2992 2011-04-24 22:38:00 <BlueMatt> programme: /usr/local/include might not be in the default search dirs. Try CFLAGS="-I/usr/local/include/" make -f makefile.unix
2993 2011-04-24 22:38:07 <programme> ok
2994 2011-04-24 22:38:14 <ArtForz> jav_: still working on it
2995 2011-04-24 22:38:25 BERRI has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds)
2996 2011-04-24 22:38:53 <ArtForz> yes
2997 2011-04-24 22:39:02 <programme> BlueMatt: the lib is in /usr/local/BerkeleyDB4.7/include/cp_cxx.h
2998 2011-04-24 22:39:12 <BlueMatt> wait, what
2999 2011-04-24 22:39:20 <BlueMatt> why is it in BerkeleyDB4.7?
3000 2011-04-24 22:39:23 <BlueMatt> never seen that part
3001 2011-04-24 22:39:25 <programme> i dont know
3002 2011-04-24 22:39:31 <BlueMatt> anyway, just add that to the cflags instead
3003 2011-04-24 22:39:31 <ArtForz> jav_: seeing exactly the same
3004 2011-04-24 22:39:35 <programme> i wasnt able to place the / because of my keyboard
3005 2011-04-24 22:39:52 <programme> ok so in CFLAGS ill just do /usr/local/BerkeleyDB4.7/include/ right
3006 2011-04-24 22:39:59 <BlueMatt> programme: might be because you have multiple versions installed that it decides to do that
3007 2011-04-24 22:40:10 <BlueMatt> programme: CFLAGS="-i/usr....." make ....
3008 2011-04-24 22:40:54 <programme> CFLAGS="-i/usr/local/BerkeleyDB4.7/include/"
3009 2011-04-24 22:40:55 <programme> right
3010 2011-04-24 22:41:03 <programme> ?
3011 2011-04-24 22:41:06 <BlueMatt> capital I though I dont think it matters
3012 2011-04-24 22:41:09 <BlueMatt> other than that yea
3013 2011-04-24 22:41:13 <programme> k
3014 2011-04-24 22:42:00 <programme> weird
3015 2011-04-24 22:42:02 <programme> still the same
3016 2011-04-24 22:42:08 <luke-jr> cross-MingW bitcoind instructions anywhere?
3017 2011-04-24 22:42:25 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: in build-linux-mingw.txt
3018 2011-04-24 22:42:27 <BlueMatt> or something like that
3019 2011-04-24 22:43:03 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: which is where? :p
3020 2011-04-24 22:43:14 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/tree/crosscompile
3021 2011-04-24 22:43:25 <BlueMatt> ah build-linux-win32.txt
3022 2011-04-24 22:43:26 <luke-jr> oh, it required changes? O.o
3023 2011-04-24 22:43:32 <BlueMatt> one very small one
3024 2011-04-24 22:43:45 <BlueMatt> frankly I dont know why that line of code was there in the first place
3025 2011-04-24 22:43:55 <BlueMatt> bitcoin literally never uses pngs, anywhere
3026 2011-04-24 22:44:04 <luke-jr> XD
3027 2011-04-24 22:44:48 <programme> BlueMatt: weird still the same
3028 2011-04-24 22:45:03 <BlueMatt> programme: huh, ok now that makes no sense
3029 2011-04-24 22:45:31 BERRI has joined
3030 2011-04-24 22:45:35 <programme> BlueMatt: i know ill try to uninstall a few things brb
3031 2011-04-24 22:45:43 <BlueMatt> CFLAGS="-I/usr/local/BerkeleyDB4.7/include/" make -f makefile.unix
3032 2011-04-24 22:45:58 <BlueMatt> and you have the file its complaining about in /usr/local/BerkeleyDB4.7/include?
3033 2011-04-24 22:46:08 <BlueMatt> no uninstalling probably wont help
3034 2011-04-24 22:46:19 <BlueMatt> oh wait...
3035 2011-04-24 22:46:21 kermit has joined
3036 2011-04-24 22:46:27 <BlueMatt> should be CXXFLAGS
3037 2011-04-24 22:46:30 <BlueMatt> not CFLAGS
3038 2011-04-24 22:47:23 <luke-jr> I should maybe make a pull req for Makefile.gentoo
3039 2011-04-24 22:47:26 <ArtForz> yeah, it's not a deadlock in bitcoin locks itself
3040 2011-04-24 22:47:38 <ArtForz> looks like something with how we use walletdb
3041 2011-04-24 22:47:48 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: no, Im waiting to do any build-related pull requests until autotools gets merged
3042 2011-04-24 22:48:06 <BlueMatt> though the current autotools pull req doesnt build for me
3043 2011-04-24 22:48:44 <programme> i see
3044 2011-04-24 22:48:51 <programme> ill try CXXFLAGS then
3045 2011-04-24 22:49:13 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3046 2011-04-24 22:50:46 Zkek has left ()
3047 2011-04-24 22:50:48 <programme> still the same ill try to just remove berkeley
3048 2011-04-24 22:50:51 <programme> and install it again
3049 2011-04-24 22:50:58 <BlueMatt> no...wait
3050 2011-04-24 22:51:21 <ArtForz> I think I know whats going on... maybe
3051 2011-04-24 22:51:33 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3052 2011-04-24 22:52:05 <programme> also ill try to uninstall that dbd-c\\ package i installed earier
3053 2011-04-24 22:52:07 <ArtForz> GetAccountAddress uses a db transaction to do atomic db update
3054 2011-04-24 22:53:00 <ArtForz> while *inside* that, we call GetKeyFromKeyPool() which instantiates andother walletdb object
3055 2011-04-24 22:53:32 <ArtForz> and using that one we try to write new keys to wallet pool
3056 2011-04-24 22:54:17 <ArtForz> my money is on "db write is blocked until the open atomic transaction on the other wallet db object is either commited or rolled back"
3057 2011-04-24 22:54:36 <jav_> aw, yes, I think that's the problem
3058 2011-04-24 22:54:53 johnlockwood has left ()
3059 2011-04-24 22:55:08 <jav_> it seems that db write is usually not blocked, but in this case, because fOverwrite is set to false
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3061 2011-04-24 22:55:39 programmer has joined
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3063 2011-04-24 22:56:04 programmer is now known as Guest71697
3064 2011-04-24 22:56:25 <jav_> because I still see calls to pdb->put() happening and succeeding.. just the pdb->put() call from AddKey() blocks and it seems to me the only difference is fOverwrite = false
3065 2011-04-24 22:57:40 <ArtForz> hrrrm
3066 2011-04-24 22:57:47 <ArtForz> now whats a good way to fix this
3067 2011-04-24 22:58:40 <jav_> yeah, good question =)
3068 2011-04-24 23:01:51 johnlockwood has joined
3069 2011-04-24 23:02:42 <johnlockwood> tcatm: getTrades.php trade entries now have a trade id
3070 2011-04-24 23:02:57 <johnlockwood> that should make it easier
3071 2011-04-24 23:04:31 <ArtForz> sure enough, without the atomic transaction it works
3072 2011-04-24 23:04:41 <ArtForz> hrrrrm
3073 2011-04-24 23:04:55 kermit has joined
3074 2011-04-24 23:05:31 <ArtForz> let's try something...
3075 2011-04-24 23:10:31 Greek_o_nikos has left ("Leaving")
3076 2011-04-24 23:11:31 programme has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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3079 2011-04-24 23:16:42 <jav_> hm, the fOverwrite = false doesn't have anything to do with it... I guess other pdb->put() operations succeed, because they don't conflict with the atomic transaction in progress
3080 2011-04-24 23:17:36 <ArtForz> yea
3081 2011-04-24 23:17:55 <ArtForz> I don't quite get it, it *should* work as we reallyo nly use one underlying db instance
3082 2011-04-24 23:18:20 <ArtForz> but bdb transactions arent exactly my specialty
3083 2011-04-24 23:19:43 <tcatm> johnlockwood: whoa, how did you do that?
3084 2011-04-24 23:20:00 <nanotube> do what? i didn't see him do anything
3085 2011-04-24 23:20:44 <tcatm> adding a trade id to mtgox' getTrades
3086 2011-04-24 23:21:49 <nanotube> tcatm: ah missed that msg. cool. :)
3087 2011-04-24 23:22:00 <nanotube> guess johnlockwood works with MagicalTux now?
3088 2011-04-24 23:23:32 <Kiba> wonder why people think namecoin will have no impact
3089 2011-04-24 23:24:27 <Kiba> the primary difficulty of namecoin is that the public don't care until their domain names get seized
3090 2011-04-24 23:25:19 <tcatm> namecoin probably needs 2..3 years until it is really useful
3091 2011-04-24 23:25:43 <Kiba> namecoin get to ride on bitcoin's popularity
3092 2011-04-24 23:25:51 dust- has joined
3093 2011-04-24 23:26:18 <tcatm> without bitcoin, twice that
3094 2011-04-24 23:26:19 <BlueMatt> or do the original idea satoshi had an add namecoin block hashes to bitcoin block coinbases
3095 2011-04-24 23:26:28 <BlueMatt> that way you get all the security of bitcoin without all the miners
3096 2011-04-24 23:26:31 <BlueMatt> though you do need some
3097 2011-04-24 23:26:34 <Kiba> BlueMatt: cross-mining is already planned
3098 2011-04-24 23:27:00 <BlueMatt> Kiba: ah, ok then
3099 2011-04-24 23:27:21 <BlueMatt> Kiba: how easy is it to just run it in the background and set /etc/resolv.conf right now?
3100 2011-04-24 23:27:51 <Diablo-D3> welp this is fun
3101 2011-04-24 23:27:53 <Kiba> nothing exists yet
3102 2011-04-24 23:27:58 <Diablo-D3> I think mtgox ate a transaction
3103 2011-04-24 23:28:15 <Kiba> cyber-conservatives are not going to like these thing
3104 2011-04-24 23:28:21 <BlueMatt> Kiba: ah, ok well still cool project, though Im not sure it will get really adopted hugely until its REALLY easy to apply
3105 2011-04-24 23:29:16 <BlueMatt> Kiba: then you need to advertise it on the old .p2p sites and such, but it definitely has potential
3106 2011-04-24 23:29:46 <tcatm> I'd still prefer to use it as a DNS system for .onion addresses :)
3107 2011-04-24 23:30:09 <Kiba> so
3108 2011-04-24 23:30:15 <Kiba> did anything happens on p2p site?
3109 2011-04-24 23:30:23 dust- has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3110 2011-04-24 23:30:26 <Kiba> did they ever do something of substance?
3111 2011-04-24 23:30:50 <tcatm> dunno, did namecoin except for forking bitcoin code and adding a few datafields?
3112 2011-04-24 23:30:52 <Kiba> I think they never quite figure out how to do p2p
3113 2011-04-24 23:31:06 dust- has joined
3114 2011-04-24 23:31:23 <BlueMatt> http://dot-p2p.org/
3115 2011-04-24 23:31:52 <BlueMatt> pretty high google-juice
3116 2011-04-24 23:31:56 <BlueMatt> despite little content
3117 2011-04-24 23:31:59 <BlueMatt> go advertise there :)
3118 2011-04-24 23:32:02 Marcel has left ()
3119 2011-04-24 23:32:54 <Kiba> but sir
3120 2011-04-24 23:32:56 <BlueMatt> .p2p was all centralized afaict
3121 2011-04-24 23:32:57 <Kiba> it's a dead project!
3122 2011-04-24 23:33:01 <BlueMatt> yep
3123 2011-04-24 23:33:02 <Diablo-D3> mtgox better replace that 100bt
3124 2011-04-24 23:33:07 <Kiba> so we win by default :D
3125 2011-04-24 23:33:08 <BlueMatt> its all dea because its all centralized
3126 2011-04-24 23:33:14 <BlueMatt> Kiba: hence you need to advertise there
3127 2011-04-24 23:33:19 <BlueMatt> its got pretty good google-juice
3128 2011-04-24 23:33:37 <Kiba> not sure how to advertise without being spammy
3129 2011-04-24 23:34:08 <BlueMatt> who cares, throw it to the wall and see what sticks
3130 2011-04-24 23:34:38 <BlueMatt> or just put up there "In an attempt to implement the original goals of this project, we have started NameCoin, see link"
3131 2011-04-24 23:35:18 <AAA_awright> Kiba: There's no way to do cross-mining without embracing the very principles that we're rejecting for the Bitcoin chain
3132 2011-04-24 23:35:41 <ArtForz> huh?
3133 2011-04-24 23:35:46 <BlueMatt> AAA_awright: yes there is
3134 2011-04-24 23:35:51 <BlueMatt> AAA_awright: in coinbase
3135 2011-04-24 23:35:59 <Kiba> AAA_awright: ?
3136 2011-04-24 23:36:05 <AAA_awright> Not that I've seen, and I think I can even prove it's impossible
3137 2011-04-24 23:36:16 <ArtForz> AAA_awright: you think wrong. thanks for playing.
3138 2011-04-24 23:36:18 <AAA_awright> All blocks contain within them the previous block
3139 2011-04-24 23:36:18 <BlueMatt> the problem most people see is filling up the blockchain with crap, you can put it in coinbase
3140 2011-04-24 23:36:25 <BlueMatt> and it doesnt use any extra space
3141 2011-04-24 23:36:32 <AAA_awright> ArtForz: If you're gonna troll gtfo
3142 2011-04-24 23:36:34 <ArtForz> well, 32 bytes per block
3143 2011-04-24 23:36:36 <BlueMatt> or any extra processing power
3144 2011-04-24 23:36:44 <ArtForz> AAA_awright: if you're too lazy to read the fucking scrollback, gtfo
3145 2011-04-24 23:36:44 <Kiba> anyway, I am not sure what AAA_awright is trying to say
3146 2011-04-24 23:36:46 <AAA_awright> I'm at least trying to explain my position
3147 2011-04-24 23:37:04 <BlueMatt> AAA_awright: then please do, what exactly do you object to?
3148 2011-04-24 23:37:08 <Kiba> AAA_awright is being all vague
3149 2011-04-24 23:37:32 <AAA_awright> I'm saying it's impossible, all blocks must contain within them the previous block, thus if you're going to do cross-mining, you have to contain multiple previous blocks
3150 2011-04-24 23:37:37 pirrr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3151 2011-04-24 23:37:39 <Kiba> WTF?
3152 2011-04-24 23:37:46 <Kiba> all they're doing is submitting hashes to both chain
3153 2011-04-24 23:37:52 <ArtForz> *blink* what?
3154 2011-04-24 23:38:07 <AAA_awright> When you generate a block you're solving a problem, correct?
3155 2011-04-24 23:38:10 <BlueMatt> AAA_awright: I dont think you understand what cross-mining means
3156 2011-04-24 23:38:13 <AAA_awright> What is that problem you're trying to solve
3157 2011-04-24 23:38:25 <BlueMatt> cross-mining just means you reference the namecoin blocks in the bitcoin blocks
3158 2011-04-24 23:38:29 <BlueMatt> no crazy stuff there
3159 2011-04-24 23:38:34 <Kiba> BlueMatt: Huh?
3160 2011-04-24 23:38:37 NickelBot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
3161 2011-04-24 23:38:37 <BlueMatt> no modifying of clients
3162 2011-04-24 23:38:40 <sipa> how can that work?
3163 2011-04-24 23:38:40 <Kiba> that is not how I understand cross-mining
3164 2011-04-24 23:38:43 <BlueMatt> no extra space requirements
3165 2011-04-24 23:38:43 <JFK911> you're solving the problem of personally having no bitcoins, AAA_awright
3166 2011-04-24 23:38:53 <ArtForz> well, namecoin clients need modification, but not bicoin clients
3167 2011-04-24 23:39:02 <AAA_awright> JFK911: No, what's the mathematical problem
3168 2011-04-24 23:39:03 <Kiba> yay
3169 2011-04-24 23:39:06 <BlueMatt> Kiba: sipa put the block hash from namecoin in the bitcoin coinbase
3170 2011-04-24 23:39:09 <Kiba> I have 100 namecoins
3171 2011-04-24 23:39:12 <JFK911> AAA_awright: same as scratch off lotto
3172 2011-04-24 23:39:32 <Kiba> AAA_awright: all they have to do is get a certain amount of zero, right?
3173 2011-04-24 23:39:35 <ArtForz> and you need modified bitcoin miners to also build namecoin blocks and put their hashes in bitcoin coinbase txins
3174 2011-04-24 23:39:49 <AAA_awright> You're finding value of which some random number plus the hash of the previous block when hashed is less than a certain target
3175 2011-04-24 23:39:59 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3176 2011-04-24 23:40:02 <Kiba> AAA_awright: I see no conflict
3177 2011-04-24 23:40:13 <Kiba> you submit the hash to both problem and see if it stick
3178 2011-04-24 23:40:17 <ArtForz> I'm pretty sure I have a faint idea about how mining works...
3179 2011-04-24 23:40:22 NickelBot has joined
3180 2011-04-24 23:40:28 <ArtForz> no, you only try to solve the bitcoin block
3181 2011-04-24 23:40:35 <AAA_awright> In order to prove that a block satisfies multiple chains you would have to verify that include both chains are true
3182 2011-04-24 23:40:50 <Kiba> no
3183 2011-04-24 23:40:53 <AAA_awright> er, that you're not generating a block for some non-existant block
3184 2011-04-24 23:41:07 <ArtForz> doesn't matter for otherchain really
3185 2011-04-24 23:41:20 <Kiba> if it doesn't stick, it doesn't stick, AAA_awright
3186 2011-04-24 23:41:26 <Kiba> if it stick, yay!
3187 2011-04-24 23:41:27 <ArtForz> as long as the chains in themselves are ok, the other chain block being technically invalid is no problem
3188 2011-04-24 23:41:39 <AAA_awright> If I generate a block and I say "This is the solution for two chains X and Y" clients would have to know that the blocks it's being generated for really are blocks actually in X AND Y
3189 2011-04-24 23:41:48 <ArtForz> no
3190 2011-04-24 23:41:59 <Kiba> beside, Satoshi Nakamoto suggested it as a solution
3191 2011-04-24 23:42:20 <Kiba> unless Satoshi have a brain fart or something
3192 2011-04-24 23:42:24 <AAA_awright> So satoshi is correct then.
3193 2011-04-24 23:42:29 <ArtForz> again, you only have hash(otherchain header) in coinbase txin
3194 2011-04-24 23:42:33 <AAA_awright> For now I sugguest the latter
3195 2011-04-24 23:42:46 <ArtForz> so obviously if the rest of the block is ok, thats a valid bitcoin block even if thhe referenced otherchain block is invalid
3196 2011-04-24 23:43:38 <ArtForz> because for bitcoin those 32 bytes are just random junk
3197 2011-04-24 23:43:58 <Kiba> doesn't add any extra information?
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3199 2011-04-24 23:44:10 <ArtForz> well, it adds 32 bytes per block to bitcoin
3200 2011-04-24 23:44:25 <ArtForz> do it right and thats all thats ever needed to support any number of otherchains
3201 2011-04-24 23:44:31 <AAA_awright> So why not just add arbritary data in blocks then? It's not any better
3202 2011-04-24 23:44:43 <ArtForz> yes it is
3203 2011-04-24 23:44:51 <ArtForz> 32 bytes. for any number of otherchains.
3204 2011-04-24 23:45:20 <AAA_awright> If I can generate for arbritary chains, I may as well reference invalid chains and use those bytes as data
3205 2011-04-24 23:45:38 <AAA_awright> It defeats the purpose of what we're doing
3206 2011-04-24 23:45:42 <ArtForz> *headdesk*
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3209 2011-04-24 23:47:14 <ArtForz> yes, theres like zero difference between 32 bytes per block and a few 100kB per block.
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3211 2011-04-24 23:48:19 <AAA_awright> That's all we're asking, a few dozen bytes in the blocks
3212 2011-04-24 23:48:33 <ArtForz> where?
3213 2011-04-24 23:49:38 <AAA_awright> Uh, somewhere in the block? Something that can be looked up in a DHT
3214 2011-04-24 23:49:57 <AAA_awright> Why would you want to put 100kB in the blocks when you can just stuff that data in a DHT?
3215 2011-04-24 23:50:16 <AAA_awright> That's what gp5st and us are sugguesting for ##dns-p2p
3216 2011-04-24 23:50:24 <AAA_awright> I don't know about namecoin
3217 2011-04-24 23:51:09 <AAA_awright> ArtForz: Sorry to imply you're a troll
3218 2011-04-24 23:51:38 <ArtForz> well, conceptually theres not much difference
3219 2011-04-24 23:52:09 <ArtForz> doesnt matter if otherchain is a dht or a broadcast network, thoguh I wonder how do you want to prevent shit from falling off the dht?
3220 2011-04-24 23:52:44 <ArtForz> for a simple broadcast network like bitcoin it's easy, everyone stores everything
3221 2011-04-24 23:53:25 <ArtForz> shrug, guess it's solvable
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3225 2011-04-24 23:56:47 <Guest71697> cannot find -lboost_system weird
3226 2011-04-24 23:56:54 <phantomcircuit_> ArtForz, it's hard to stop stuff from falling off a dht without designating super nodes
3227 2011-04-24 23:57:18 <Kiba> so now, the pool miners composed half of the hashing power
3228 2011-04-24 23:57:49 <Guest71697> im trying to compile bitcoin does anyone what this error means or how i can solve it? cannot find -lboost_system
3229 2011-04-24 23:57:49 <Kiba> that's quite an achievement
3230 2011-04-24 23:58:04 <sipa> Guest71697: install libboost-dev-all
3231 2011-04-24 23:58:11 <Guest71697> ok
3232 2011-04-24 23:59:23 <Guest71697> sipa: i dont have that one for suse 11.1
3233 2011-04-24 23:59:36 <Guest71697> sipa: i already installed all the packages that my package manager finds for suse 11.1
3234 2011-04-24 23:59:45 <Guest71697> sipa: regarding boost