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  11 2011-04-26 00:23:41 <programele> does anyone know here
  12 2011-04-26 00:23:55 <programele> how i can run bitcoin so that it listens on port 8333 and port 8332
  13 2011-04-26 00:24:00 autotron has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4)
  14 2011-04-26 00:24:11 <Androgynous> well, it always listens
  15 2011-04-26 00:24:17 <Androgynous> you just gotta forward the ports
  16 2011-04-26 00:24:28 <programele> ok ill try im on a virtual machine
  17 2011-04-26 00:24:31 <phantomcircuit> programele, it always listens on 8333, im not sure it can listen on multiple ports
  18 2011-04-26 00:24:32 <programele> if i run bitcoind
  19 2011-04-26 00:24:40 <programele> its sopposed that it will open 8332 and 8333 ?
  20 2011-04-26 00:24:43 <programele> *supposed
  21 2011-04-26 00:24:53 <phantomcircuit> iirc one of those is the RPC API port
  22 2011-04-26 00:24:56 autotron has joined
  23 2011-04-26 00:24:58 <phantomcircuit> 8332 probably
  24 2011-04-26 00:25:01 <programele> yes 8332 is the rcp api
  25 2011-04-26 00:25:08 <programele> however i need both ports open
  26 2011-04-26 00:25:15 <programele> how i can do that?
  27 2011-04-26 00:25:45 <phantomcircuit> uh what
  28 2011-04-26 00:26:09 <purplezky> i think you want to forward the port on the host machine to the virtual machine ?
  29 2011-04-26 00:26:27 <programele> i need a rcp api port open and a regular 8333 port open
  30 2011-04-26 00:26:30 <bk128> are there any intel chipsets out that support the sandy bridge vt-d?   I know the q67 supposedly does, and it says launched, but I dont see any boards with it http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=52811,52812,52807,52806,52810,52801,52213,52214,
  31 2011-04-26 00:26:35 <purplezky> if the virtual machine is configured with NAT
  32 2011-04-26 00:26:51 docl has joined
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  34 2011-04-26 00:28:21 <tcatm> 9
  35 2011-04-26 00:28:46 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
  36 2011-04-26 00:28:48 <purplezky> just configure your virtual machine network device to run in bridge mode solves your problem... no need to forward any ports. to make bitcoind bind its ports just use ./bitcoind -server -daemon
  37 2011-04-26 00:28:48 <gribble> Current Blocks: 120197 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 762 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 14 hours, 42 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 104608.27045327
  38 2011-04-26 00:29:17 <midnightmagic> down from 105k? but this graph is way up: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png :-)
  39 2011-04-26 00:29:25 <programele> i see
  40 2011-04-26 00:29:30 <programele> well im on bridge already
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  49 2011-04-26 00:45:32 EPiSKiNG has joined
  50 2011-04-26 00:46:39 <EPiSKiNG> how do i get my nvidia card to work with poclbm?
  51 2011-04-26 00:46:54 <EPiSKiNG> It's not showing up as an opencl hardware
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  55 2011-04-26 00:48:38 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
  56 2011-04-26 00:48:40 <gribble> Current Blocks: 120200 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 759 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes, and 18 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 104674.55728595
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  64 2011-04-26 01:06:20 programele has joined
  65 2011-04-26 01:06:31 <programele> does anyone here knows how to configure pushpool?
  66 2011-04-26 01:06:36 taco_the_paco has joined
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  69 2011-04-26 01:06:53 <programele> does anyone here knows how to configure pushpool?
  70 2011-04-26 01:09:59 amiller has joined
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  73 2011-04-26 01:16:07 <anarchyx> bitdns/namecoin should just eliminte .extensions alltogether
  74 2011-04-26 01:16:15 <anarchyx> so google instead of google.com should be the new standard
  75 2011-04-26 01:16:30 <anarchyx> its been nothing but confusing and extra complexity anyway
  76 2011-04-26 01:17:18 <anarchyx> they could still add a .whatever if they really wanted
  77 2011-04-26 01:19:03 Kiba has joined
  78 2011-04-26 01:20:04 <luke-jr> anarchyx: I strongly disagree.
  79 2011-04-26 01:20:14 <luke-jr> anarchyx: TLDs are needed to differentiate between service providers
  80 2011-04-26 01:20:30 <luke-jr> namecoin should just use .bit or such
  81 2011-04-26 01:20:41 <luke-jr> or perhaps .ncd
  82 2011-04-26 01:23:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * ra3424efc5cc2 spesmilo/ (cashier.py settings.py):
  83 2011-04-26 01:23:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: abstract "disabled" style a bit, and only allow selecting Tonal number system if
  84 2011-04-26 01:23:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: a suitable font is installed also, if a language file is missing, disable it
  85 2011-04-26 01:23:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: rather than remove it altogether if a Tonal font is missing, also never choose
  86 2011-04-26 01:23:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: it for amount display under any circumstances http://tinyurl.com/42cm8j7
  87 2011-04-26 01:23:51 <luke-jr> ok, that really screwed up my sane linebreaks
  88 2011-04-26 01:23:57 <bk128> are there any SB chipsets out yet that support vt-d?  Q67 is supposed to be out but I cant find any motherboards with it
  89 2011-04-26 01:24:13 <luke-jr> bk128: I found one suitable Q67. Having trouble finding a place to buy it.
  90 2011-04-26 01:24:29 <bk128> who makes it?
  91 2011-04-26 01:24:33 <luke-jr> Fujitsu
  92 2011-04-26 01:24:50 <bk128> weird
  93 2011-04-26 01:24:53 <bk128> maybe I should wait a week
  94 2011-04-26 01:24:55 <bk128> or month
  95 2011-04-26 01:25:02 <luke-jr> https://globalsp.ts.fujitsu.com/dmsp/docs/ds-d3076-s.pdf
  96 2011-04-26 01:25:14 <bk128> I had no idea they even make mobos
  97 2011-04-26 01:25:29 <luke-jr> I have a time limit :/
  98 2011-04-26 01:25:37 <luke-jr> NewEgg will only accept my return until May 18
  99 2011-04-26 01:25:52 <bk128> lol, what do you have now?
 100 2011-04-26 01:25:59 <luke-jr> Gigabyte H67
 101 2011-04-26 01:26:02 <bk128> same
 102 2011-04-26 01:26:05 <luke-jr> Radisys's Q67 is nuts.
 103 2011-04-26 01:26:15 wolfspraul has joined
 104 2011-04-26 01:26:16 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 105 2011-04-26 01:26:19 <luke-jr> bk128: eh, where did you get yours that is giving you longer?
 106 2011-04-26 01:26:31 <bk128> I'm selling my old one
 107 2011-04-26 01:26:34 <luke-jr> ah
 108 2011-04-26 01:26:37 <luke-jr> nice deal
 109 2011-04-26 01:26:38 <bk128> and my i5 2500
 110 2011-04-26 01:26:44 <bk128> then buying a 2600 and a q67 probably
 111 2011-04-26 01:26:47 <luke-jr> anyhow, Radisys's Q67 motherboard has a freaking ISA slot
 112 2011-04-26 01:26:49 <luke-jr> -.-
 113 2011-04-26 01:26:50 <luke-jr> http://radisys.eu/datasheets/product/Industrie%20Mainboards/MB960F.pdf
 114 2011-04-26 01:27:00 <bk128> maybe it's meant for industrial applications
 115 2011-04-26 01:27:02 <luke-jr> yeah
 116 2011-04-26 01:27:05 <luke-jr> all Q67 are apparently
 117 2011-04-26 01:27:07 <luke-jr> :/
 118 2011-04-26 01:27:26 <luke-jr> 3rd Q67 I found is Portwell: http://www.portwell.com/pdf/embedded/RUBY-D712VG2AR.pdf
 119 2011-04-26 01:27:41 programe has joined
 120 2011-04-26 01:27:48 <bk128> q67 is the most expensive :-p http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=52811,52812,52807,52806,52810,52801,52213,52214,
 121 2011-04-26 01:28:00 eternal1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 122 2011-04-26 01:28:08 <programe> does anyone here knows how to setup pushpool?
 123 2011-04-26 01:28:33 <luke-jr> programe: want to do it together?
 124 2011-04-26 01:28:48 <programe> luke-jr: yes please, can you help me? its driving me crazy
 125 2011-04-26 01:28:49 <luke-jr> I'm literally about to set up my own
 126 2011-04-26 01:28:57 <luke-jr> programe: I haven't started yet
 127 2011-04-26 01:29:00 <luke-jr> :p
 128 2011-04-26 01:29:01 <programe> luje-jr: i already compiled evreything
 129 2011-04-26 01:29:18 <programe> luke-jr: do you have idea what needs to be placed on the configs?
 130 2011-04-26 01:29:19 * luke-jr wonders where to get jansson
 131 2011-04-26 01:29:23 <Kiba> hmm
 132 2011-04-26 01:29:27 <luke-jr> there's an example config somewhere in the source
 133 2011-04-26 01:29:40 <programe> luke-jr: yes i know however i placed all the values there
 134 2011-04-26 01:29:44 <programe> and ran everything
 135 2011-04-26 01:29:45 <bk128> how long do you think before asus/msi/gigabyte start releasing q67 boards?
 136 2011-04-26 01:29:52 <programe> but i dont know how to connect to the pool using a miner?
 137 2011-04-26 01:29:52 <luke-jr> bk128: maybe never
 138 2011-04-26 01:29:57 <bk128> really?
 139 2011-04-26 01:30:00 <luke-jr> programe: fail
 140 2011-04-26 01:30:09 <programe> luke-jr ?
 141 2011-04-26 01:30:10 <luke-jr> bk128: Q67 *is* meant for industrial…
 142 2011-04-26 01:30:18 <bk128> oh, really?
 143 2011-04-26 01:30:23 <luke-jr> programe: before running your own pool, try using one :P
 144 2011-04-26 01:30:28 <luke-jr> bk128: afaik
 145 2011-04-26 01:30:34 <bk128> that sucks
 146 2011-04-26 01:30:36 <programe> luke-jr: i already used deepbit
 147 2011-04-26 01:30:42 <luke-jr> bk128: why?
 148 2011-04-26 01:30:51 <bk128> http://commercial.asus.com/product/detail/103
 149 2011-04-26 01:31:03 DoomDumas has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 150 2011-04-26 01:31:04 <bk128> are the industrial motherboards a lot more expensive?
 151 2011-04-26 01:31:15 <luke-jr> dunno, haven't seen any prices yet
 152 2011-04-26 01:31:51 <bk128> http://www.excaliberpc.com/603876/asus-p8q67-m-do-csm-rev.html
 153 2011-04-26 01:31:57 DoomDumas has joined
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 155 2011-04-26 01:31:57 DoomDumas has joined
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 157 2011-04-26 01:32:52 <luke-jr> bk128: I was only even considering ATX
 158 2011-04-26 01:33:01 <bk128> ah, you're right
 159 2011-04-26 01:34:11 <bk128> what wattage psu would you use for a i5 2500, h67, no graphics card,  one hdd, one dvd burner
 160 2011-04-26 01:34:37 DoomDumas has joined
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 162 2011-04-26 01:34:37 DoomDumas has joined
 163 2011-04-26 01:34:52 <bk128> 550?
 164 2011-04-26 01:35:02 <luke-jr> less
 165 2011-04-26 01:35:13 <luke-jr> well, I don't have a DVD drive
 166 2011-04-26 01:36:02 <luke-jr> but my 500 W powers 3 SATA HDs, Radeon 5850, H67, i5-2500 (GPU enabled), 5 case fans, and an extra NIC
 167 2011-04-26 01:36:11 <bk128> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152028 ?
 168 2011-04-26 01:36:15 <luke-jr> 5850 is mining 24/7 at max speed
 169 2011-04-26 01:36:15 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 170 2011-04-26 01:36:37 <luke-jr> bk128: mine's an Antec Earthwatts
 171 2011-04-26 01:36:43 <luke-jr> cheap PSUs are cheap.
 172 2011-04-26 01:37:02 <bk128> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341016
 173 2011-04-26 01:37:03 skyewm has joined
 174 2011-04-26 01:37:22 <luke-jr> I'm not PSU expert.
 175 2011-04-26 01:37:24 <luke-jr> just saying
 176 2011-04-26 01:37:30 <luke-jr> $40 doesn't sound like it'd be good
 177 2011-04-26 01:37:37 <luke-jr> I paid over double that
 178 2011-04-26 01:37:50 <bk128> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371035
 179 2011-04-26 01:37:53 <luke-jr> …
 180 2011-04-26 01:38:04 <luke-jr> ask ##hardware or smthj
 181 2011-04-26 01:38:10 <luke-jr> oh, mine
 182 2011-04-26 01:38:14 <luke-jr> that looks the same yeah
 183 2011-04-26 01:38:24 <bk128> ok, sorry for the link spam.  whats smthj?
 184 2011-04-26 01:38:24 <luke-jr> but no D on my model
 185 2011-04-26 01:38:24 malfy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 186 2011-04-26 01:38:26 <luke-jr> just EA-500
 187 2011-04-26 01:38:31 <luke-jr> something with a j typo
 188 2011-04-26 01:39:07 <bk128> ok
 189 2011-04-26 01:41:52 Zarutian has joined
 190 2011-04-26 01:42:04 afed has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 191 2011-04-26 01:42:09 <bk128> so antec is the only brand you'd go with?
 192 2011-04-26 01:42:20 <luke-jr> no
 193 2011-04-26 01:42:25 <luke-jr> I'd ask ##hardware :p
 194 2011-04-26 01:42:34 <luke-jr> only bought the Antec cuz I was desperate and that's all the store had
 195 2011-04-26 01:42:54 <bk128> ah, okay
 196 2011-04-26 01:43:20 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * reb80f3167ed7 gentoo/dev-libs/jansson/ (5 files): Import dev-libs/jansson from Sunrise http://tinyurl.com/3fggshb
 197 2011-04-26 01:43:24 <bk128> bought in a store?  :p  must have really needed it
 198 2011-04-26 01:43:41 <luke-jr> my only other one died
 199 2011-04-26 01:43:43 <luke-jr> :p
 200 2011-04-26 01:43:57 <programe> does anyone here have setup pushpool?
 201 2011-04-26 01:46:54 <programe> does anyone here knows how i can make the pushpool ports to be seen as http:// :8332 ?
 202 2011-04-26 01:47:54 noagendamarket has joined
 203 2011-04-26 01:49:16 WakiMiko_ has joined
 204 2011-04-26 01:49:49 <bitcoiner> --port 8332 --host=mining.bitcoin.cz ?
 205 2011-04-26 01:52:24 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 206 2011-04-26 01:52:31 taco_the_paco has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 207 2011-04-26 01:53:46 <bitcoiner> -url=http://deepbit.net:8332 ?
 208 2011-04-26 01:55:34 <programe> bitcoiner: i need to configure my own pooler
 209 2011-04-26 01:55:37 <programe> using pushpool
 210 2011-04-26 01:55:43 DukeOfURL has joined
 211 2011-04-26 01:55:43 <programe> do you know how to do it?
 212 2011-04-26 01:55:47 xlogik has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 213 2011-04-26 01:55:56 <bitcoiner> oh sorry
 214 2011-04-26 01:56:45 xlogik has joined
 215 2011-04-26 01:56:45 xlogik has quit (Client Quit)
 216 2011-04-26 01:57:25 taco_the_paco has joined
 217 2011-04-26 01:57:25 taco_the_paco has quit (Changing host)
 218 2011-04-26 01:57:25 taco_the_paco has joined
 219 2011-04-26 01:58:33 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jgarzik missing pushpool dep: libmemcached ?
 220 2011-04-26 01:58:33 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 221 2011-04-26 01:59:25 <programe> wondering where is jgarzik
 222 2011-04-26 01:59:30 <programe> i need his help
 223 2011-04-26 02:00:18 <luke-jr> I can't even build this -.-
 224 2011-04-26 02:00:59 <programe> luke-jr: yeah it taked me 12 hours to figure out how to compile it and bitcoin and now i dont know how to configure it
 225 2011-04-26 02:00:59 <programe> lol
 226 2011-04-26 02:01:12 <luke-jr> programe: what version of jansson?
 227 2011-04-26 02:01:43 <programe> 1.3
 228 2011-04-26 02:01:48 <luke-jr> ugh
 229 2011-04-26 02:01:57 <programe> i can help you to compile it
 230 2011-04-26 02:02:04 <programe> but i need someone to help me to configure it
 231 2011-04-26 02:02:06 <programe> lol
 232 2011-04-26 02:02:07 <luke-jr> it doesn't compile with jansson 2.0
 233 2011-04-26 02:02:13 <programe> yeah
 234 2011-04-26 02:02:15 <programe> it happened
 235 2011-04-26 02:02:19 <programe> you need 1.3
 236 2011-04-26 02:02:33 * luke-jr grumbles.
 237 2011-04-26 02:02:56 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jgarzik pushpool doesn't build with jansson 2.0? -.-
 238 2011-04-26 02:02:56 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 239 2011-04-26 02:07:58 malfy has joined
 240 2011-04-26 02:09:17 Androgynous has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 241 2011-04-26 02:10:42 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
 242 2011-04-26 02:10:43 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.701,"low":1.5211,"vol":15075,"buy":1.5564,"sell":1.595,"last":1.595}}
 243 2011-04-26 02:10:49 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 244 2011-04-26 02:10:51 <gribble> Current Blocks: 120210 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 749 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 104784.37005952
 245 2011-04-26 02:11:54 B0g4r7 has joined
 246 2011-04-26 02:12:02 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 247 2011-04-26 02:12:31 EPiSKiNG has joined
 248 2011-04-26 02:13:19 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rfbad645b4bd7 gentoo/dev-libs/jansson/ (.git-info Manifest jansson-1.3.ebuild): Import dev-libs/jansson-1.3 from "nikai" overlay http://tinyurl.com/5spvsz3
 249 2011-04-26 02:14:35 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jgarzik for some reason, pushpool only links if -lmysqlclient is listed on the command line AFTER db-mysql.o
 250 2011-04-26 02:14:35 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 251 2011-04-26 02:18:09 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calc 1036000
 252 2011-04-26 02:18:09 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1036000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 4 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes, and 47 seconds
 253 2011-04-26 02:18:20 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,est 1036000
 254 2011-04-26 02:18:20 <gribble> Error: "bc,est" is not a valid command.
 255 2011-04-26 02:18:24 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,estimate 1036000
 256 2011-04-26 02:18:24 <gribble> 104784.37005952
 257 2011-04-26 02:19:02 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gen 1036000
 258 2011-04-26 02:19:03 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1036000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 11.2838699044 BTC per day and 0.470161246016 BTC per hour.
 259 2011-04-26 02:19:24 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,gend 1036000 104784.37005952
 260 2011-04-26 02:19:24 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1036000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 104784.37005952, is 9.94459576069 BTC per day and 0.414358156696 BTC per hour.
 261 2011-04-26 02:20:15 <programe> ;;bc,gen 750000
 262 2011-04-26 02:20:16 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 750000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 8.16882473773 BTC per day and 0.340367697405 BTC per hour.
 263 2011-04-26 02:22:00 <programe> ;;bc,gen 120000
 264 2011-04-26 02:22:01 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 120000 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.30701195804 BTC per day and 0.0544588315849 BTC per hour.
 265 2011-04-26 02:23:19 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r8a79b9003b5f gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool: Initial import of live-git http://tinyurl.com/5vp4z9e
 266 2011-04-26 02:26:07 xlogik has joined
 267 2011-04-26 02:33:19 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rede72535995f gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.3.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool: 0.3 http://tinyurl.com/4y9lv53
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 282 2011-04-26 03:05:56 <programe> CPU :: Ufasoft's SSE2 miner would work with pushpool?
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 302 2011-04-26 03:26:41 <programe> im getting upstream RPC error
 303 2011-04-26 03:26:45 <programe> does anyone know what it means?
 304 2011-04-26 03:29:02 xlogik has joined
 305 2011-04-26 03:29:11 <B0g4r7> It means about what you'd think.
 306 2011-04-26 03:32:13 <programe> B0g4r7 what?
 307 2011-04-26 03:32:41 <EPiSKiNG> anyone else notice an issue with teh new Phoenix miner not getting the correct MH/s?
 308 2011-04-26 03:32:51 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 310 2011-04-26 03:33:23 <EPiSKiNG> I ran mine for a like an hour, and the MH/s show better than poclbm, but when I check deepbit's reports, it shows a substantial decrease
 311 2011-04-26 03:33:28 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 312 2011-04-26 03:34:26 <fabianhjr> I have been searching for a while and I am 95% sure there was a Pledge for a MyBitcoin FOSS alternative. :/
 313 2011-04-26 03:35:05 <dust1> EPiSKiNG: sample size?
 314 2011-04-26 03:38:34 <Kiba> so, what happens to your magainze, fabianhjr
 315 2011-04-26 03:39:05 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
 316 2011-04-26 03:39:29 <fabianhjr> Not much, that really happened. After we parted blogs poped up and there was no writing taking place. So now I am back to coding, graphics, and security.
 317 2011-04-26 03:39:33 <Kiba> don't you have this thing called the bitcoin times when I briefly help run it
 318 2011-04-26 03:39:51 <Kiba> so you gave up
 319 2011-04-26 03:39:58 <fabianhjr> Kiba: yes, I still have the files if you want them.
 320 2011-04-26 03:40:17 <Kiba> nothing interesting I already extracted, plus I do only public domain
 321 2011-04-26 03:40:20 <fabianhjr> Kiba: I moved to another marketplace. I made my profits in the journalism area.
 322 2011-04-26 03:40:28 citiz3n has joined
 323 2011-04-26 03:40:46 <Kiba> where do you make your bitcoin now?
 324 2011-04-26 03:40:53 <fabianhjr> Kiba: yes, I know. Though, I offered because maybe you would want a copy with the other articles.
 325 2011-04-26 03:40:56 <EPiSKiNG> dust1: phoenix -u http://user:pass@deepbit.net:8332/;askrate=15 -k poclbm DEVICE=2 VECTORS AGGRESSION=10 -v FASTLOOP BFI_INT
 326 2011-04-26 03:41:16 <fabianhjr> Kiba: doing a Bitcoin class in PHP then moving to do a MyBitcoin alternative, FOSS.
 327 2011-04-26 03:41:19 * Kiba wins by virtue of persitance
 328 2011-04-26 03:41:32 <dust1> EPiSKing: I mean what sample size are you basing your conclusion on.
 329 2011-04-26 03:41:35 <Kiba> persistance*
 330 2011-04-26 03:41:49 <fabianhjr> Kiba: you aren't profiting from your Weekly. You still haven't won the fight. :P
 331 2011-04-26 03:42:06 <Kiba> but I got more traffics
 332 2011-04-26 03:42:20 <fabianhjr> Have you surpassed your 1K Bitcoin wish? I remember 3-5 months ago you were bragging about getting your hand to all the bitcoins you could.
 333 2011-04-26 03:42:33 <fabianhjr> :D
 334 2011-04-26 03:42:45 <EPiSKiNG> 1 hr
 335 2011-04-26 03:42:53 <Kiba> fabianhjr: not really
 336 2011-04-26 03:43:05 <dust1> Episking: probably not signifigant
 337 2011-04-26 03:43:05 <Kiba> but my revenues better now
 338 2011-04-26 03:43:09 <Kiba> .11 BTC a day
 339 2011-04-26 03:43:16 <fabianhjr> LOL, ok, that was the biggest impression I got from you when I met you.
 340 2011-04-26 03:43:27 <fabianhjr> s/met/meet/
 341 2011-04-26 03:43:37 <Kiba> fabianhjr: anyway, I have 445 BTC
 342 2011-04-26 03:43:43 <Kiba> and I still do scrap for bitcoin
 343 2011-04-26 03:44:37 <fabianhjr> LOL, at least you didn't follow genjix path of saling himself.
 344 2011-04-26 03:46:05 <Kiba> apperantly, I made a profit of 320% at witcoin
 345 2011-04-26 03:47:49 <fabianhjr> Kiba: congratz! You deserve it for your journalism!
 346 2011-04-26 03:48:03 hello_ has joined
 347 2011-04-26 03:48:14 <hello_> Hey guys, I have a quick question.
 348 2011-04-26 03:48:28 <programe> which year it will be 1 block = 25 btc ? right now its 1 block = 50 btc.... when it will happen to be 1 block = 25 btc?
 349 2011-04-26 03:48:42 <B0g4r7> At block 210000.
 350 2011-04-26 03:48:43 sacarlson has joined
 351 2011-04-26 03:48:45 <shazow> programe: in 2 years i believe
 352 2011-04-26 03:49:02 <programe> shazow: 2014 ?
 353 2011-04-26 03:49:04 tenach has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 354 2011-04-26 03:49:06 <hello_> I made 5 successive payments of .2 btn to a gambling website about 40 minutes ago but they are all still unconfirmed :(
 355 2011-04-26 03:49:11 <hello_> Does anyone know why?
 356 2011-04-26 03:49:14 <shazow> programe: i think so (don't quite one m on that)
 357 2011-04-26 03:49:20 <hello_> All my other transactions are getting confirmations.
 358 2011-04-26 03:49:25 <shazow> programe: 2013 i think
 359 2011-04-26 03:49:41 <programe> shazow: and when that happens it will be required to have the double processing power to earn 50 btc in the same amount of time that we do now?
 360 2011-04-26 03:49:48 <B0g4r7> Maybe you're unlucky and the block producers decided not to include your transactions.
 361 2011-04-26 03:49:58 <B0g4r7> Wait more.
 362 2011-04-26 03:50:06 <B0g4r7> Or include a tx fee.
 363 2011-04-26 03:50:08 <shazow> programe: no, since the rate is scaled by the processing power, if everyone doubles it then it will remain the same
 364 2011-04-26 03:50:19 <B0g4r7> Roughly scaled.
 365 2011-04-26 03:50:20 <shazow> programe: you'll require double relative to everyone else's staying the same
 366 2011-04-26 03:50:31 <hello_> B0g4r7, how often does that happen? And about how long should I wait?
 367 2011-04-26 03:50:46 <B0g4r7> A block is generated about every 10 minutes.
 368 2011-04-26 03:50:46 <programe> shazow: so basically if my 6990 card now does 50btc each 6 days, how much it will do in year 2014 or so ?
 369 2011-04-26 03:51:05 <programe> 25 btc?
 370 2011-04-26 03:51:09 <B0g4r7> Every time that happens, the block producer has an opportunity to add your transactions to the chain.
 371 2011-04-26 03:51:15 <shazow> programe: that all depends on how many people are mining, if you assume the same compute power exists in the total mining pool, then you'll get 25 btc in 6 days
 372 2011-04-26 03:51:27 <B0g4r7> Depends on difficulty.
 373 2011-04-26 03:51:36 <programe> i see
 374 2011-04-26 03:52:10 <hello_> I've been waiting for 40 minutes, so it seems like I missed out on 4 opportunities to have my transactions added to the chain :(
 375 2011-04-26 03:52:40 <B0g4r7> Did you include a transaction fee?
 376 2011-04-26 03:52:55 <B0g4r7> Also make sure you're connected to peers and see the block count advancing.
 377 2011-04-26 03:54:15 <hello_> 34 connections. Did not include a fee as I didn't see an option for it when I sent payments to PROBIWON through the default Bitcoin client.
 378 2011-04-26 03:54:46 <hello_> Actually the block count isn't advancing, weird...
 379 2011-04-26 03:54:57 <hello_> Although I have 35 connections.
 380 2011-04-26 03:54:57 <retinal> ;;bc,blocks
 381 2011-04-26 03:54:58 <gribble> 120227
 382 2011-04-26 03:55:07 <retinal> are you on the current one?
 383 2011-04-26 03:55:07 <hello_> Yep, 120227
 384 2011-04-26 03:55:13 <hello_> Yep
 385 2011-04-26 03:55:50 DeviledMoon has joined
 386 2011-04-26 03:56:04 <retinal> it's a waiting game, then
 387 2011-04-26 03:56:17 <hello_> 120228! :P
 388 2011-04-26 03:56:23 <retinal> ;;bc,blocks
 389 2011-04-26 03:56:24 <gribble> 120228
 390 2011-04-26 03:56:27 <retinal> :o
 391 2011-04-26 03:56:36 <hello_> :o
 392 2011-04-26 03:57:09 <B0g4r7> http://blockexplorer.com/b/120228
 393 2011-04-26 03:57:18 <B0g4r7> You can see if you see your transaction in the block.
 394 2011-04-26 03:57:38 DeviledMoon has quit (Client Quit)
 395 2011-04-26 03:57:50 <B0g4r7> I see a couple payments of 2 btc.
 396 2011-04-26 03:58:56 <hello_> Confirmed ;) Wow that took forever.
 397 2011-04-26 03:59:41 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 398 2011-04-26 04:00:03 <B0g4r7> Now you get to wait some more, for 6 confirmations, assuming that's the requirement.
 399 2011-04-26 04:00:05 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 400 2011-04-26 04:00:18 <hello_> Just one confirmation :)
 401 2011-04-26 04:00:28 <hello_> So how come the block count was going up so rapidly today?
 402 2011-04-26 04:00:33 <B0g4r7> 1 confirmation per block.
 403 2011-04-26 04:00:34 <hello_> And now it's slower.
 404 2011-04-26 04:00:47 <B0g4r7> Maybe someone switched off some miners.
 405 2011-04-26 04:01:04 <hello_> Please tell them to turn it back on <3
 406 2011-04-26 04:01:08 <B0g4r7> Or if you just started your client and it was behind it had to catch up.
 407 2011-04-26 04:01:17 <hello_> I think IBM should get in on this mining.
 408 2011-04-26 04:01:25 <hello_> Get those blocks up faster.
 409 2011-04-26 04:01:35 <B0g4r7> The network will readjust no matter how muchy compute power is brought to bear.
 410 2011-04-26 04:01:36 TheKid has joined
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 412 2011-04-26 04:01:36 TheKid has joined
 413 2011-04-26 04:01:52 <B0g4r7> To achieve a constant rate of 1 block per 10 minutes (or so)
 414 2011-04-26 04:01:53 <hello_> So the number of blocks always increases at the same rate?
 415 2011-04-26 04:01:59 <hello_> Ah, I see.
 416 2011-04-26 04:02:02 <B0g4r7> However...
 417 2011-04-26 04:02:03 <retinal> but ... then the difficulty will adjust accordingly to average one block every ten minu... what B0g4r7 said
 418 2011-04-26 04:02:12 <B0g4r7> Difficulty readjustent only occurs once per 2016 blocks.
 419 2011-04-26 04:02:21 <B0g4r7> So you could gain a temporary boost.
 420 2011-04-26 04:02:32 <hello_> Yeah.
 421 2011-04-26 04:03:27 <B0g4r7> If someone wanted to hose the network, they could bring in massive power, wait for the readjustment, and then drop off.
 422 2011-04-26 04:03:57 <B0g4r7> Drop the block rate to one per 120 minutes or something.
 423 2011-04-26 04:04:05 <B0g4r7> Then it would be forever until the next readjustment.
 424 2011-04-26 04:04:10 <B0g4r7> Then they could pull the same thing again.
 425 2011-04-26 04:04:45 <B0g4r7> Even worse, bring in massive power, but encode no transactions in any blocks solved.
 426 2011-04-26 04:04:48 <hello_> Jeez.
 427 2011-04-26 04:05:03 <hello_> What safeproofs are there against that?
 428 2011-04-26 04:05:17 <B0g4r7> Lots of grassroots power...?
 429 2011-04-26 04:05:19 <programe> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
 430 2011-04-26 04:05:25 <programe> I GOT PUSHPOOL WORKING
 431 2011-04-26 04:05:26 <programe> HAHA
 432 2011-04-26 04:05:34 <programe> IT TAKED ME 4 DAYS
 433 2011-04-26 04:05:41 <programe> full working days
 434 2011-04-26 04:05:41 <programe> :P
 435 2011-04-26 04:05:57 <B0g4r7> I don't know what that is, but right on.
 436 2011-04-26 04:06:00 <hello_> Pushpool?
 437 2011-04-26 04:06:50 <programe> https://github.com/jgarzik/pushpool
 438 2011-04-26 04:06:55 <programe> yeah its a polling software
 439 2011-04-26 04:07:01 <programe> to create pools
 440 2011-04-26 04:07:03 <programe> polls
 441 2011-04-26 04:07:09 <programe> mining pools
 442 2011-04-26 04:07:19 <B0g4r7> Push notification of a new block?
 443 2011-04-26 04:07:38 <programe> yes, and share earnings between miners etc
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 464 2011-04-26 04:45:03 <programe> jgarzik
 465 2011-04-26 04:45:32 <Kiba> I argued with a bitcoin user on twitter who argued that the exchanges are already decentralized
 466 2011-04-26 04:45:51 <jrabbit> lol.
 467 2011-04-26 04:46:12 <Kiba> mtgox got a big fat bank account painted on it
 468 2011-04-26 04:46:26 <Kiba> tell me that's not centralized
 469 2011-04-26 04:46:32 <Kiba> it's a big fat choke point
 470 2011-04-26 04:46:34 DavidSJ has joined
 471 2011-04-26 04:47:31 <programe> jgarzik: pushpool isnt registering the shares for some reason, do you have idea why? i need to wait until the miners solve one whole block for anything to be registered?
 472 2011-04-26 04:57:09 <programe> weird
 473 2011-04-26 04:57:42 <Kiba> jgarzik: so, will pastecoin get back?
 474 2011-04-26 04:58:16 JStoker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 475 2011-04-26 04:59:19 <programe> jgarzik isnt answering :/
 476 2011-04-26 04:59:37 * jgarzik is on vacation
 477 2011-04-26 05:00:15 <programe> weird
 478 2011-04-26 05:00:19 <programe> when he will be back
 479 2011-04-26 05:00:31 <ersi> lol
 480 2011-04-26 05:00:42 * jgarzik does not like being assaulted by PM's immediately upon arrival, either
 481 2011-04-26 05:00:55 <programe> weird
 482 2011-04-26 05:00:58 <programe> i didnt know
 483 2011-04-26 05:01:06 <jgarzik> learn some IRC etiquette, people
 484 2011-04-26 05:01:07 <programe> sorry
 485 2011-04-26 05:01:53 * nanotube joins the bandwagon and assaults jgar zik with a highlight :)
 486 2011-04-26 05:02:03 <programe> jgarzik: can you help me to answer some questions regarding pushpool?
 487 2011-04-26 05:02:21 <jgarzik> as long as it's not fscking beep beep beep with each message.  damn.
 488 2011-04-26 05:02:27 <jgarzik> highlight I can deal with.
 489 2011-04-26 05:02:43 <ersi> programe: How about taking a hint
 490 2011-04-26 05:02:58 <programe> jgarzik: one thing to note is that blkmond crashes every 10 min or so
 491 2011-04-26 05:03:20 <programe> jgarzik: probably because my bitcoin server client is newer than the protocol it supports?
 492 2011-04-26 05:04:14 <programe> jgarzik: minerd works okay with the pushpool setup i have made using json-http interface however CPU :: Ufasoft's SSE2 miner doesnt work ?
 493 2011-04-26 05:04:45 <programe> jgarzik: i see minerd to hash and show MHash/s etc however i dont see any shares beign recordered on the db
 494 2011-04-26 05:04:55 <programe> jgarzik: those are all the questions :)
 495 2011-04-26 05:05:01 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
 496 2011-04-26 05:05:32 <ersi> ┐(￣ー￣)┌
 497 2011-04-26 05:07:26 <programe> jgarzik ?
 498 2011-04-26 05:07:51 JStoker has joined
 499 2011-04-26 05:07:57 <ersi> I hope he did put you on ignore, 'cause you sure are annoying
 500 2011-04-26 05:08:11 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
 501 2011-04-26 05:08:13 <programe> i tought this channel is to discuss dev stuff
 502 2011-04-26 05:08:19 <programe> im joining his project to solve bugs
 503 2011-04-26 05:08:21 <programe> and review the code
 504 2011-04-26 05:08:25 <programe> and implement new features
 505 2011-04-26 05:08:34 <programe> and he is not going to help me to join
 506 2011-04-26 05:08:35 <programe> ?
 507 2011-04-26 05:08:40 <ersi> then go and review the code
 508 2011-04-26 05:08:44 <programe> i tought open source developers were more open
 509 2011-04-26 05:08:50 <programe> and friendly
 510 2011-04-26 05:08:51 <davex__> hmm...  wonder how phoenix miner could possibly run the gpu cooler but get better mh/s than other miners
 511 2011-04-26 05:09:04 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 512 2011-04-26 05:09:20 <jgarzik> open source means you are free to read the code and figure out problems youself.
 513 2011-04-26 05:09:22 * davex__ is suspicious
 514 2011-04-26 05:09:24 <ersi> Well, you can't just expect to get support just cause something is open.
 515 2011-04-26 05:09:25 <jgarzik> Free support is ----> that way
 516 2011-04-26 05:09:44 <programe> jgarzik: i can pay
 517 2011-04-26 05:09:52 <programe> jgarzik: if thats what you want
 518 2011-04-26 05:10:20 <ersi> Oh man, exactly what I'd wish for when on vacation! Work! :)
 519 2011-04-26 05:10:27 <jgarzik> yeah really
 520 2011-04-26 05:10:46 <programe> however my idea was to join and help on the project and work togheter in team
 521 2011-04-26 05:11:01 <programe> i just have those questions and nothing more
 522 2011-04-26 05:11:18 <jgarzik> might have to cut vacation short to deal with daughter's croup, even :/  We'll see in the morning.
 523 2011-04-26 05:11:19 <nanotube> programe: it seems jg has other things on his mind atm... so just save your inquiries for a bit later.
 524 2011-04-26 05:11:32 <programe> okay
 525 2011-04-26 05:11:33 <ersi> jgarzik: Croup? :o
 526 2011-04-26 05:11:37 <programe> no problem
 527 2011-04-26 05:11:48 <programe> ill research the code myself
 528 2011-04-26 05:12:06 <programe> however im a bit dissapointed
 529 2011-04-26 05:12:16 <ersi> jgarzik: Ouch, that does not seem nice. Hope she'll get better man
 530 2011-04-26 05:12:18 <nanotube> jgarzik: haha i was going to ask if your daughter is a horse... then used the dict to figure out it has alternate meaning :)
 531 2011-04-26 05:12:35 <nanotube> best wishes on your daughter's health.
 532 2011-04-26 05:12:54 <programe> jgarzik: best whishes
 533 2011-04-26 05:13:12 <programe> jgarzik: hopefully we can work togheter in a future
 534 2011-04-26 05:13:37 <programe> meanwhile ill have to review the code and anser the questions myself :P
 535 2011-04-26 05:13:42 <programe> *answer
 536 2011-04-26 05:13:45 <Androgynous> hey...
 537 2011-04-26 05:14:02 <Androgynous> can anyone here maybe possibly help me with my bitcoin.conf for namecoin?
 538 2011-04-26 05:14:12 <Androgynous> i'm getting an error saying that i need to set my rpcpassword
 539 2011-04-26 05:14:16 <Androgynous> but i made the file
 540 2011-04-26 05:14:21 <programe> whats namecoin
 541 2011-04-26 05:14:38 OneFixt has joined
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 546 2011-04-26 05:15:00 <programe> i see distributed name system..
 547 2011-04-26 05:15:02 <Androgynous> chain seperate from bitcoin
 548 2011-04-26 05:15:05 Guest22387 has joined
 549 2011-04-26 05:15:10 <Androgynous> yeah, it involved domains and names
 550 2011-04-26 05:15:22 <Androgynous> but to run namecoind
 551 2011-04-26 05:15:28 <Androgynous> i need a bitcoin.conf
 552 2011-04-26 05:15:50 <programe> Diablo-D3: does diablo miner supports http-json requests?
 553 2011-04-26 05:15:55 <Androgynous> C:\Users\User\AppData\Roaming\Namecoin
 554 2011-04-26 05:15:58 <Androgynous> i have it saves there
 555 2011-04-26 05:16:13 <Androgynous> where it tells me to save it
 556 2011-04-26 05:16:21 <Androgynous> as owner-readable-only
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 559 2011-04-26 05:17:19 Guest22387 is now known as OneFixt
 560 2011-04-26 05:18:03 <Androgynous> perhaps i'm going about setting it as "owner-readable-only"
 561 2011-04-26 05:18:06 <Androgynous> wrong
 562 2011-04-26 05:18:17 <Androgynous> ping me if anyone thinks they can help
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 590 2011-04-26 06:06:45 <bk128> anyone know the name of the site that shows a moving chart of all the transactions by size?
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 594 2011-04-26 06:22:33 <midnightmagic> bitcoin watch?
 595 2011-04-26 06:23:42 <midnightmagic> nope..
 596 2011-04-26 06:24:07 <Diablo-D3> [01:11:45] <programe> Diablo-D3: does diablo miner supports http-json requests?
 597 2011-04-26 06:24:13 <Diablo-D3> how else would it work?
 598 2011-04-26 06:24:21 Androgynous-Busy is now known as Androgynous
 599 2011-04-26 06:29:47 <luke-jr> does anyone know DataSurfer? is he on IRC?
 600 2011-04-26 06:30:03 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: all the other pools have or are moving to push-based mining
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 602 2011-04-26 06:32:29 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: yes, which is kind of nuts when they're all going to have to convert to mine.
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 617 2011-04-26 06:57:45 <chmod755> http://random.witcoin.com/p/1302/OperationTop10
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 635 2011-04-26 07:35:58 <genjix> tcatm: britcoin has been up and functioning but disappeared from bitcoinwatch since yesterday
 636 2011-04-26 07:36:23 <genjix> appears on bitcoincharts though
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 639 2011-04-26 07:49:31 <midnightmagic> bitcoinmonitor.com is the one..
 640 2011-04-26 07:50:15 <genjix> bitcoinmonitor isnt for currencies
 641 2011-04-26 07:56:50 <ersi> Holy fuck, people trading 1 BTC for 1.5 USD o_o
 642 2011-04-26 08:00:39 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
 643 2011-04-26 08:00:41 <gribble> Current Blocks: 120263 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 696 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 12 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 105916.19630086
 644 2011-04-26 08:01:03 <midnightmagic> bk128 was asking for moving chart of transactions by size.
 645 2011-04-26 08:01:41 <midnightmagic> ;;calc (105916.19630086-92347.59095209)/92347.59095209
 646 2011-04-26 08:01:41 <gribble> (105,916.19630086 - 92,347.59095209) / 92,347.59095209 = 0.146929716
 647 2011-04-26 08:01:43 <cosurgi> ArtForz: what is the endianness of time in "DATA   : 000002800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080000000_nonce__~target~==time==_merkle_" ?
 648 2011-04-26 08:02:00 <midnightmagic> 14.7% increase.
 649 2011-04-26 08:02:07 <midnightmagic> that's..  a bit high.
 650 2011-04-26 08:02:21 <cosurgi> ArtForz: I am looking at 'time' from different blocks and only the high bits are changing, not low bits.
 651 2011-04-26 08:03:59 <lfm> cosurgi: you mean like the "data" in getwork?
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 653 2011-04-26 08:05:36 <lfm> cosurgi: the "data" in getwork is 32 bit big endian
 654 2011-04-26 08:06:18 <lfm> they byteswap it as an optimization for the sha256 routine
 655 2011-04-26 08:07:02 <Compgenius> hey guys, how would I clear my transaction list in bitcoin?
 656 2011-04-26 08:07:33 <cosurgi> lfm: yep, I just reversed the bytes, and I got a correct time.
 657 2011-04-26 08:07:34 <Compgenius> atm my bitcoin "all transactions" is flooded with my bitcoin winnings and sendings
 658 2011-04-26 08:08:24 <CFSworks> Compgenius: Create a new wallet, send all your BTC there, delete the old one?
 659 2011-04-26 08:08:28 <lfm> Compgenius: you cant
 660 2011-04-26 08:08:38 <ersi> Modify the client :)
 661 2011-04-26 08:09:11 <CFSworks> Moving all your Bitcoins into a new wallet would work... You lose your old addresses though. :(
 662 2011-04-26 08:09:26 Fnar has joined
 663 2011-04-26 08:10:04 <Compgenius> not necessarily a good idea to lose all my address...
 664 2011-04-26 08:10:11 <Compgenius> I'll just leave them for now
 665 2011-04-26 08:10:16 <ersi> So keep your old wallet around
 666 2011-04-26 08:12:04 <Compgenius> just to show you... http://cg999.ath.cx/imgs/lolcoin.png damn thats going to be annoying...
 667 2011-04-26 08:12:16 sacarlson has left ()
 668 2011-04-26 08:12:41 <retinal> pshaw, that's not even 100 transactions
 669 2011-04-26 08:13:38 <CFSworks> I have 113 and it's not so bad as long as I don't stare at the scrollbar.
 670 2011-04-26 08:13:46 <ersi> That's why one usually has a 'internal balance' on sites and then either deposit or withdraw
 671 2011-04-26 08:14:01 <CFSworks> It's like fear of heights: Don't look at how bad it is and you won't get sick to your stomach.
 672 2011-04-26 08:14:24 <Compgenius> counted em, 63.
 673 2011-04-26 08:14:44 <CFSworks> That's odd. The lower-right corner says 67.
 674 2011-04-26 08:14:59 <Compgenius> meh, might have skipped a few numbers
 675 2011-04-26 08:15:20 <CFSworks> With so many similar transactions I'd get lose count too.
 676 2011-04-26 08:15:23 <Compgenius> sometimes i accidently skip from say 45 to 50 >_>
 677 2011-04-26 08:15:49 <Compgenius> btw CFSworks, those transactions were all done within the space of a day
 678 2011-04-26 08:16:42 <CFSworks> Wow. Are all of them small trades too?
 679 2011-04-26 08:16:57 <Compgenius> yeah
 680 2011-04-26 08:17:01 <Compgenius> 0.01-0.02
 681 2011-04-26 08:17:18 <Compgenius> there's only one transaction that wasn't on the 25th
 682 2011-04-26 08:17:19 <CFSworks> I can see what you mean. That would give me a headache.
 683 2011-04-26 08:17:20 <ersi> sounds like a lottery or some other small-change game
 684 2011-04-26 08:17:32 <Compgenius> and that was on the 14th, when i got my 0.05 from the faucet
 685 2011-04-26 08:17:39 <Compgenius> CFSworks, bitcoin darts
 686 2011-04-26 08:17:45 <Compgenius> really needs some sort-of on site wallet
 687 2011-04-26 08:17:47 <Compgenius> >_>
 688 2011-04-26 08:17:51 <CFSworks> Hmm...
 689 2011-04-26 08:17:51 <ersi> I agree :)
 690 2011-04-26 08:18:01 <Compgenius> new address to send to every time you bet
 691 2011-04-26 08:18:40 <CFSworks> Hmm...
 692 2011-04-26 08:18:51 <ersi> Seems like you've done +- 0 :)
 693 2011-04-26 08:19:05 <Compgenius> ersi, it's more or less -0.10
 694 2011-04-26 08:19:13 <CFSworks> What Bitcoin needs is a "hide old transactions" option that hides anything older than X transactions.
 695 2011-04-26 08:19:14 <Compgenius> since i got 0.10 off of a friend to bring it to 0.15
 696 2011-04-26 08:21:47 <CFSworks> To any core Bitcoin developers online right now: What do you think about a "Show only last [      ] transactions in the main window." textbox to be added to the GUI preferences?
 697 2011-04-26 08:22:07 <Compgenius> CFSworks, i'm surprised there's not a remove transaction option
 698 2011-04-26 08:22:18 <Compgenius> to get rid of a transaction, or atleast a deleted transaction tab
 699 2011-04-26 08:22:19 <Compgenius> >_>
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 701 2011-04-26 08:23:37 <CFSworks> "Removing" a transaction isn't in the design of Bitcoin, since it's stored permanently in the block chain.
 702 2011-04-26 08:23:48 <CFSworks> "Hide" would be a little less misleading.
 703 2011-04-26 08:25:12 <retinal> request: filter by address
 704 2011-04-26 08:26:21 <retinal> actually, scratch that; it'd be impractical after a couple months of intense usage
 705 2011-04-26 08:26:23 <retinal> ┐(￣ー￣)┌
 706 2011-04-26 08:27:00 <CFSworks> Compgenius, did you develop the darts game?
 707 2011-04-26 08:32:39 <Compgenius> CFSworks, nope
 708 2011-04-26 08:33:18 <Compgenius> retinal, it really would be useless, since a lot of sites generate a random address for every transaction you make to them
 709 2011-04-26 08:34:17 <ersi> filter by label, then.
 710 2011-04-26 08:37:22 <Compgenius> actually yeah.. that makes more sense ersi
 711 2011-04-26 08:44:27 <genjix> thing i dont get is why so many boost::asio examples use threads when they suck and a reactor pattern means you don't have to use them.
 712 2011-04-26 08:56:32 <doublec> probably to take advantage of multiple cores
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 723 2011-04-26 09:24:18 <RenaKunisaki> https://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/58349704-6eab-4b4f-bf4e-358a7235b75c.jpg  there's a Bitcoin joke in here somewhere...
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 727 2011-04-26 09:35:19 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
 728 2011-04-26 09:35:19 <gribble> 120278
 729 2011-04-26 09:35:56 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 1200000 5d
 730 2011-04-26 09:35:57 <gribble> 0.729372504234
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 732 2011-04-26 09:45:17 <RenaKunisaki> ;;bc,gen 0
 733 2011-04-26 09:45:18 <gribble> Error: float division
 734 2011-04-26 09:46:01 <lfm> ;;bc,gen 0.001
 735 2011-04-26 09:46:03 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 0.001 Khps, given current difficulty of 92347.59095209 , is 1.0891766317e-08 BTC per day and 4.53823596541e-10 BTC per hour.
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 739 2011-04-26 10:03:21 <CIA-89> bitcoin: genjix * rcc5ed7a95ba9 intersango/util.php: added ignore status. http://tinyurl.com/6k5feth
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 746 2011-04-26 10:15:12 <omglolbbq> guys is there a windows desktop gadget to monitor mtgox?
 747 2011-04-26 10:24:44 legion050 has joined
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 749 2011-04-26 10:30:15 <toffoo> omglolbbq: i think so .. but looks like he's trying to sell it for 1BTC:  http://www.reddit.com/r/BitMarket/comments/g94bq/bitcoin_widget_for_windows_for_sale_1_bitcoin/
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 752 2011-04-26 10:37:19 <xelister> hi, when starting new bitcoin node
 753 2011-04-26 10:37:31 <xelister> how to copy chain files, which ones exactly are needed to not redownload
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 759 2011-04-26 10:46:54 <omglolbbq> tnx toffoo
 760 2011-04-26 10:47:31 <eps> ;;bc,stats
 761 2011-04-26 10:47:33 <gribble> Current Blocks: 120288 | Current Difficulty: 92347.59095209 | Next Difficulty At Block: 120959 | Next Difficulty In: 671 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 21 hours, 11 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 106298.92485892
 762 2011-04-26 10:47:51 <eps> woah quite a jump there
 763 2011-04-26 10:48:57 <eps> it seems like the value rallys are pushing up the difficulty, which seems backwards to me
 764 2011-04-26 10:52:54 <Diablo-D3> eps: people are mining harder
 765 2011-04-26 10:52:56 <Diablo-D3> to get the money
 766 2011-04-26 10:53:31 <eps> yeah, i guess it makes sense
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 768 2011-04-26 10:54:55 <eps> i think what bitcoin really needs to take off though is some stability
 769 2011-04-26 10:55:18 <eps> even if it is stable at low dollar price
 770 2011-04-26 10:55:48 <eps> cos at least then people can plan more effectively
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 775 2011-04-26 11:09:45 <manveru> eps: it won't get stable if people aren't using it
 776 2011-04-26 11:10:06 <manveru> mtgox finally seems to be picking up in volume
 777 2011-04-26 11:12:03 <manveru> but it's still just a few people compared to common exchanges...
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 779 2011-04-26 11:14:39 <Compgenius> eps, probably due to all the pools
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 791 2011-04-26 11:50:19 <xelister> eps: yea
 792 2011-04-26 11:50:32 <xelister> fuck 110k diff
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 794 2011-04-26 11:51:11 <eps> manveru: if it is never stable then it is unlikely to take off in a big way
 795 2011-04-26 11:51:19 <eps> and by stable i don't mean static
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 797 2011-04-26 11:52:21 <eps> but an increase or drop of more than 20% (compared to the dollar or whatever) within a few days will make bitcoins difficult to use for legitimate business
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 805 2011-04-26 12:12:14 <TD> eps: yes indeed but there's not much anyone can do about that except get more real traders and merchants into the economy
 806 2011-04-26 12:12:16 mele has joined
 807 2011-04-26 12:12:33 <TD> right now there's lots of speculation and the economy is very small, so the price is driven heavily by press attention
 808 2011-04-26 12:13:36 Orbixx has joined
 809 2011-04-26 12:14:17 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 92000 1
 810 2011-04-26 12:14:18 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 811 2011-04-26 12:14:21 <sipa> ;;bc,calcd 92000 1
 812 2011-04-26 12:14:21 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 92000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 1, is 46 seconds
 813 2011-04-26 12:14:23 <eps> yeah, it is a tricky problem  to solve
 814 2011-04-26 12:17:44 <anarchyx> eps: more volatility will drive in more speculators and increase the amount of traders, market will regulate itself
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 816 2011-04-26 12:21:21 <TD> hmm, faucet is getting low
 817 2011-04-26 12:22:08 * TD sends 30 coins
 818 2011-04-26 12:28:08 <mele> shares are distributed when a block is solved in a pool?
 819 2011-04-26 12:28:48 <BlueMatt> mele: depends on the pool, but yes
 820 2011-04-26 12:29:08 <mele> BlueMat: ok
 821 2011-04-26 12:29:39 <sipa> mele: you can use [Tab] to complete the nickname of someobe
 822 2011-04-26 12:29:43 <sipa> someone
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 828 2011-04-26 12:42:20 <BurtyB> just plugged another 5870 in - my UPS isn't too happy lol
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 844 2011-04-26 13:11:39 <xelister> BurtyB: does you UPS actually hold computer with even one 5980
 845 2011-04-26 13:11:41 <xelister> 5870
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 872 2011-04-26 14:18:54 <luke-jr> hmm, another bubble?
 873 2011-04-26 14:20:14 <ArtForz> looks more like a single 2kbtc buy
 874 2011-04-26 14:20:45 <Kiba> Tyler Cowen is very critical of bitcoin
 875 2011-04-26 14:20:51 <ArtForz> err, 4kbtc
 876 2011-04-26 14:21:05 <Kiba> hopefully we will succeed and make him look like a fool
 877 2011-04-26 14:21:07 <ArtForz> Tyler who?
 878 2011-04-26 14:21:08 <Kiba> sweet revenge
 879 2011-04-26 14:21:25 <Kiba> dude at Marginal Revolution
 880 2011-04-26 14:21:53 <ArtForz> still not ringing a bell.. *crawls back under rock*
 881 2011-04-26 14:23:26 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r0b4cd41b6a5f gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.3.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool-0.3: latest git eclass is picky http://tinyurl.com/3vlq8zv
 882 2011-04-26 14:24:48 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 883 2011-04-26 14:25:36 <BurtyB> xelister yeah, it was doing 2xserver (one with 2x5870) a desktop/2xrouter/switch
 884 2011-04-26 14:26:07 sabalaba has joined
 885 2011-04-26 14:28:32 Tritonio has joined
 886 2011-04-26 14:33:22 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r051b33f5c79d gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.3.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool-0.3: apparently I must not have tested :/ http://tinyurl.com/656hpon
 887 2011-04-26 14:33:24 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r844d965662df gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.3.ebuild pushpool-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool: missing DEPEND: dev-libs/libmemcached http://tinyurl.com/6zge35c
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 895 2011-04-26 14:46:04 <sipa> \o/ key recovery from message+ecdsa signature works
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 899 2011-04-26 14:49:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: cpu required?
 900 2011-04-26 14:49:46 <sipa> i'll benchmark it soon, but i don't expect it to be much more expensive (per key tried) than verification
 901 2011-04-26 14:50:38 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 902 2011-04-26 14:50:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: so it would require x2 cpu time (assuming which key works is specified) to verify a tx?
 903 2011-04-26 14:51:36 <sipa> no, you don't need to verify it anymore
 904 2011-04-26 14:51:45 <BlueMatt> ah, ok cool then
 905 2011-04-26 14:51:52 <sipa> if you recover a key, and its hash matches an address, it is certainly a valid signature
 906 2011-04-26 14:52:05 <BlueMatt> ah, good point that makes sense
 907 2011-04-26 14:52:41 <BlueMatt> is it possible to specify which key out of the options will be the correct one (ie only one key recovery required)
 908 2011-04-26 14:53:11 Tritonio has joined
 909 2011-04-26 14:53:12 <BlueMatt> I havent really been paying attention
 910 2011-04-26 14:53:38 <sipa> yes
 911 2011-04-26 14:53:45 <sipa> there are at most 4 possible keys
 912 2011-04-26 14:54:05 <sipa> and you can easily specify which one to try
 913 2011-04-26 14:54:19 <BlueMatt> Id assume we dont want to try any keys other than the one specified
 914 2011-04-26 14:54:25 <sipa> exactly
 915 2011-04-26 14:54:26 <BlueMatt> there would be no use
 916 2011-04-26 14:55:44 <sipa> so i will propose to use a bitcoin-specific 65-byte signature encoding, which contains exactly the same information as the 72-byte signature + 65-byte pubkey now
 917 2011-04-26 14:55:53 Tritonio_Droid has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 918 2011-04-26 14:57:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: cool, Im assuming we dont have to kill backward compatibility if we use reserved opcodes?
 919 2011-04-26 14:57:06 Tritonio has quit (Client Quit)
 920 2011-04-26 14:57:14 <BlueMatt> ie old nodes just reject all txes
 921 2011-04-26 14:58:09 <sipa> http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=6430.msg94738#msg94738
 922 2011-04-26 14:58:34 <sipa> that proposal means we switch (at some point in the past) to new scriptPubKeys which require new scriptSigs
 923 2011-04-26 14:58:50 <sipa> *future
 924 2011-04-26 15:00:15 <sipa> i believe it would be possible (using yet another opcode...) to use a "compact signature" for an old scriptPubKey as well
 925 2011-04-26 15:01:40 * BlueMatt is still not fully comfortable with all the script terminology
 926 2011-04-26 15:02:04 <BlueMatt> is the destination address specified not a hash of the current scriptPubKey...
 927 2011-04-26 15:02:14 <sipa> no
 928 2011-04-26 15:02:26 <sipa> an address is a hash of a pubkey
 929 2011-04-26 15:02:46 <BlueMatt> sorry, yes of course
 930 2011-04-26 15:02:56 <sipa> the scriptPubKey (which typically contains a pubkey or an address) is the thing in a txout which determines who is allowed to spend
 931 2011-04-26 15:03:21 <sipa> and scriptSig (which typically contains a signature and sometimes a pubkey) is the thing in a txin which proves you had the right to spend
 932 2011-04-26 15:03:32 `2Fast2BCn has joined
 933 2011-04-26 15:04:28 <BlueMatt> if we change the format of scriptPubKeys, Im assuming we sign with old format to spend old coins and require new format for spends thereafter?
 934 2011-04-26 15:05:03 <sipa> there are two ways, i believe
 935 2011-04-26 15:05:59 <sipa> either add a new opcode to be used in scriptPubKey, which only requires a sig + 2-bit code in scriptSig - so old coins will be signed using the old way, and new coins with the new way
 936 2011-04-26 15:06:35 <sipa> or add a compatibility opcode to be used in scriptSig, which takes a scriptSig + 2-bit code, and converts it into a scriptSig + pubkey, to be fed to an old scriptPubKey
 937 2011-04-26 15:09:31 <BlueMatt> Either way old nodes will flat out reject all new signs
 938 2011-04-26 15:09:52 <BlueMatt> I prefer #1 as IMHO its nicer
 939 2011-04-26 15:12:50 <BlueMatt> though the results would effectively be the same either way
 940 2011-04-26 15:13:57 <sipa> #1 allows simpler scriptPubKeys as well, but the effect is very small
 941 2011-04-26 15:14:04 <sipa> #2 allows small sigs also for old coins
 942 2011-04-26 15:14:24 <jgarzik> Has bitcoin ever introduced a new feature that made it impossible for older clients to verify a block?
 943 2011-04-26 15:14:28 <BlueMatt> I dont see sigs for old coins to be really any advantage
 944 2011-04-26 15:14:56 <jgarzik> sendmany, for example, could be verified by ancient clients, if a sendmany TX makes it into a block.
 945 2011-04-26 15:15:26 <BlueMatt> IMHO the feature should be added, but the clients shouldnt sign that way by default until it is strictly necessary due to network load
 946 2011-04-26 15:15:57 <BlueMatt> we cant never add new opcodes just because it breaks compatibility
 947 2011-04-26 15:16:03 <BlueMatt> though we shouldnt use them by default
 948 2011-04-26 15:16:12 ISA_ has joined
 949 2011-04-26 15:16:21 <ISA_> Hello
 950 2011-04-26 15:18:25 <BlueMatt> ISA_: hi
 951 2011-04-26 15:20:09 <sipa> for a 2-txin-2-txout transaction, it would allow a more than 33% reduction in tx size
 952 2011-04-26 15:20:50 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt
 953 2011-04-26 15:20:50 <sipa> 438 -> 290 bytes
 954 2011-04-26 15:21:01 <BlueMatt> hi
 955 2011-04-26 15:21:10 <sipa> somehow that seems worth it to me, but obviously not immediately
 956 2011-04-26 15:21:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: I agree, but IMHO it shouldnt be turned on by default for quite a while
 957 2011-04-26 15:22:07 <sipa> something like "if (nBestheight > 200000) fUseCompactSigs=true;" :)
 958 2011-04-26 15:22:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: I disagree
 959 2011-04-26 15:22:24 <devrandom> so nightlies are built in a VM...  I wonder if there's a solution to that
 960 2011-04-26 15:22:25 <prax_> anyone got a suggestion for domain name registrar?
 961 2011-04-26 15:22:30 <BlueMatt> It should be off until absolutely required
 962 2011-04-26 15:23:12 <devrandom> what kind of VM are you using?
 963 2011-04-26 15:23:12 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I dont know, depends on the virtualization method
 964 2011-04-26 15:23:30 <BlueMatt> devrandom: sadly, the proc its on doesnt support hardward virt so its a vmware server
 965 2011-04-26 15:23:41 <BlueMatt> kvm wont run there
 966 2011-04-26 15:23:53 <BlueMatt> virtualbox might but vmware definitely wont
 967 2011-04-26 15:24:28 <devrandom> I wonder if non-kvm qemu would run and if it would be too slow...
 968 2011-04-26 15:24:40 <BlueMatt> does qemu do soft virt?
 969 2011-04-26 15:25:25 <BlueMatt> looks light it might
 970 2011-04-26 15:25:37 <devrandom> yeah
 971 2011-04-26 15:25:56 <BlueMatt> still dont know if it will boot inside of vmware, but I suppose its worth a shot
 972 2011-04-26 15:28:21 <devrandom> http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20589&start=15
 973 2011-04-26 15:28:33 <devrandom> someone got qemu running under vbox
 974 2011-04-26 15:29:04 <BlueMatt> worth a shot then
 975 2011-04-26 15:29:35 <BurtyB> prax_ depending on tld I do registrations
 976 2011-04-26 15:29:38 Incitatus has joined
 977 2011-04-26 15:29:42 <BlueMatt> probably still needlessly slow...
 978 2011-04-26 15:29:52 <BlueMatt> IMHO its not really worth signing nightlies
 979 2011-04-26 15:30:18 <prax_> hmm well why should I use you? (probably just a .com for now though)
 980 2011-04-26 15:30:57 <BlueMatt> devrandom: signing is important for distributions, but for nightlies...well, its not that important really
 981 2011-04-26 15:31:22 gavinandresen has joined
 982 2011-04-26 15:31:23 <devrandom> it would simplify your life if you didn't have to do the releases differently
 983 2011-04-26 15:31:32 <BurtyB> prax_ icann accredited registrar (not a reseller) for one :)
 984 2011-04-26 15:32:06 B0g4r7 has joined
 985 2011-04-26 15:32:10 <BlueMatt> devrandom: true, but Ive already got the nigtlies set up (really not hard) and building releases isnt bad with your scripts
 986 2011-04-26 15:32:22 <devrandom> ok
 987 2011-04-26 15:32:28 <prax_> was reading some stuff about how godaddy is a pain to transfer
 988 2011-04-26 15:32:33 <prax_> you got info on a website?
 989 2011-04-26 15:32:45 <prax_> I'm looking for private registration too
 990 2011-04-26 15:32:46 <BlueMatt> devrandom: In any case, I think this kind of trust is important for releases
 991 2011-04-26 15:33:18 <devrandom> BlueMatt - so sounds like the two of us can build releases and that's all we need?  gavinandresen?
 992 2011-04-26 15:33:34 <B0g4r7> godaddy huh.
 993 2011-04-26 15:33:36 <BurtyB> prax_ http://www.othellonames.net/ no restrictions (other than the tld operators) on transfering out you can just request an EPP via the control panel
 994 2011-04-26 15:33:36 <BlueMatt> devrandom: it would be nice to get as many as possible
 995 2011-04-26 15:33:40 <gavinandresen> Y'all going to take over building releases?  Wahoo!
 996 2011-04-26 15:33:43 <BlueMatt> devrandom: jgarzik, gavinandresen etc
 997 2011-04-26 15:33:47 <B0g4r7> I've used them for my domains for many yrs now.
 998 2011-04-26 15:34:00 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I would, but Id rather let people trust you/jgarzik
 999 2011-04-26 15:34:07 <B0g4r7> Never had any real problems, other than a kind of "spammy feel" from them.
1000 2011-04-26 15:34:12 bitcoiner has joined
1001 2011-04-26 15:34:38 <devrandom> I think gavin builds on ec2?
1002 2011-04-26 15:34:46 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: mac building probably not possible though (unless you know of a xcompiler from linux-> mac)
1003 2011-04-26 15:34:50 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yes he does
1004 2011-04-26 15:35:07 <gavinandresen> yup.
1005 2011-04-26 15:35:14 <devrandom> I don't yet have a solution for that, although I can envision using the API
1006 2011-04-26 15:35:18 Compgenius has quit (Changing host)
1007 2011-04-26 15:35:18 Compgenius has joined
1008 2011-04-26 15:35:51 <prax_> BurtyB I'll check it out and maybe talk to you later, still confused what I am really doing too =)
1009 2011-04-26 15:36:13 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I suppose we can go build 0.3.21 now and get some sigs out if gavin wants to distribute that instead
1010 2011-04-26 15:36:17 <BlueMatt> get the system started now
1011 2011-04-26 15:36:21 <BlueMatt> its a good opportunity
1012 2011-04-26 15:36:33 <BurtyB> prax_ np, let me know if you have any Qs
1013 2011-04-26 15:36:38 <gavinandresen> How about for the 0.4 release we plan on having the builds done using gitian?  I can get a cheap linux netbook to run VMs to build...
1014 2011-04-26 15:36:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: its up to you
1015 2011-04-26 15:37:05 CrazyThinker has joined
1016 2011-04-26 15:37:06 <BlueMatt> then the next version is 0.4?
1017 2011-04-26 15:37:24 <gavinandresen> I'd like the next version to be 0.4 with jgarzik's encrypt-private-keys incorporated
1018 2011-04-26 15:37:34 <BlueMatt> and autotools, Im assuming?
1019 2011-04-26 15:37:38 <gavinandresen> (next version after stamping 0.3.21 final today or tomorrow)
1020 2011-04-26 15:37:39 <CrazyThinker> Is the From and Message data encrypted?
1021 2011-04-26 15:37:54 <gavinandresen> Yeah, and autotools.  And some source re-org, I think
1022 2011-04-26 15:38:00 <BlueMatt> nice
1023 2011-04-26 15:38:06 <jgarzik> jaromil's autotools work is quickly overtaking my branch, as the preferred autotools junk station
1024 2011-04-26 15:38:08 <jgarzik> (with my blessing)
1025 2011-04-26 15:38:11 <BlueMatt> would like to see bitcoin: uris as well
1026 2011-04-26 15:38:16 <jgarzik> I like it when people do my work for me :)
1027 2011-04-26 15:38:25 * gavinandresen agrees
1028 2011-04-26 15:38:34 <BlueMatt> and his should support xcompile soon as well :)
1029 2011-04-26 15:38:44 <sipa> CrazyThinker: bitcoin does not use any encryption at all
1030 2011-04-26 15:39:03 <CrazyThinker> sipa, so the messages are visible to everyone on the network?
1031 2011-04-26 15:39:03 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1032 2011-04-26 15:39:03 <sipa> all transactions are public, as everyone must be able to verify their integrity
1033 2011-04-26 15:39:04 <devrandom> we can always re-release the 0.3.21 binary if we are impatient
1034 2011-04-26 15:39:25 <devrandom> hm... there's this: http://www.phenona.com/blog/using-lxc-linux-containers-in-amazon-ec2/
1035 2011-04-26 15:39:25 <sipa> CrazyThinker: that does however not mean that everyone knows which addresses belong to who
1036 2011-04-26 15:39:42 <BlueMatt> devrandom: We can release it of course, and probably should
1037 2011-04-26 15:39:42 <gavinandresen> What exactly does the gitian build/verify?  Just the executables, yes?
1038 2011-04-26 15:39:45 <CrazyThinker> yeah, but are those visible to everyone?
1039 2011-04-26 15:39:46 <sipa> jgarzik: seen my comment in your encrypt-private-keys thread?
1040 2011-04-26 15:39:52 <sipa> some time ago already
1041 2011-04-26 15:39:57 <BlueMatt> devrandom: that way we can get it out there and tested
1042 2011-04-26 15:40:02 <BlueMatt> devrandom: until it actually gets used
1043 2011-04-26 15:40:32 <jgarzik> sipa: I was hoping someone would answer your question :)   http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=4983.msg85445#msg85445
1044 2011-04-26 15:41:03 <jgarzik> sipa: the main remaining issue seems to be IV
1045 2011-04-26 15:41:06 <devrandom> gavinandresen - it can have arbitrary output.  Right now I think I copy the source to the output and include that in the signature.
1046 2011-04-26 15:41:38 <noagendamarket> http://twitter.com/#!/MemoryDealers    is now accepting bitcoins
1047 2011-04-26 15:41:39 <sipa> CrazyThinker: there is no identity info in the bitcoin network
1048 2011-04-26 15:41:42 <devrandom> BlueMatt - ok
1049 2011-04-26 15:42:09 <jgarzik> anyway...
1050 2011-04-26 15:42:13 jgarzik has quit (Quit: back to the beach)
1051 2011-04-26 15:42:19 <sipa> CrazyThinker: and bitcoin continuously creates new addresses to send change transactions to, in order to hide which is change and which is payment
1052 2011-04-26 15:42:31 <jaromil> jgarzik: thanks. i needed autotools myself. BTW i need rebase that branch and provide some documentation for mingw32 compiling
1053 2011-04-26 15:42:42 <CrazyThinker> sipa but if I mention the email address and other details in the message sent using Bitcoin client, can people read this information?
1054 2011-04-26 15:42:55 <sipa> there is no message
1055 2011-04-26 15:43:00 <TD> good day everyone
1056 2011-04-26 15:43:09 <BlueMatt> TD: good day
1057 2011-04-26 15:43:14 <gavinandresen> Wow, the gang's all here....
1058 2011-04-26 15:43:19 <TD> gavinandresen: could you maybe include the "if (!fTestNet)" conditions on the tx replacement and other disabled features before 0.3.21?
1059 2011-04-26 15:43:30 <TD> so everything that is currently disabled for safety can be played with on the testnet ....
1060 2011-04-26 15:43:34 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: jgarzik just left. he isn't part of the gang? :P
1061 2011-04-26 15:43:40 <CrazyThinker> sipa, In the bitcoin client it shows message and From text boxes
1062 2011-04-26 15:43:52 <sipa> CrazyThinker: that's only for the outdated send-to-IP feature
1063 2011-04-26 15:43:55 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1064 2011-04-26 15:43:58 <gavinandresen> TD: I'd rather not-- I want to get 0.3.21 out the door
1065 2011-04-26 15:44:00 <sipa> CrazyThinker: the bitcoin network doesn't use them
1066 2011-04-26 15:44:03 <TD> fair enough
1067 2011-04-26 15:44:16 <CrazyThinker> sipa, okay
1068 2011-04-26 15:44:28 <B0g4r7> TD: Verying behavior based on whether or not "test mode" is being used sounds like a bad idea to me.
1069 2011-04-26 15:44:38 <gavinandresen> TD: It'll be top of the list for 0.4 (assuming somebody submits a PULL or I remember)
1070 2011-04-26 15:44:39 <devrandom> jgarzik - are you interested in joining the gitian builders?
1071 2011-04-26 15:44:45 <TD> great.
1072 2011-04-26 15:44:52 <luke-jr> …
1073 2011-04-26 15:44:53 <B0g4r7> varying
1074 2011-04-26 15:44:55 <gavinandresen> jgarzik just left
1075 2011-04-26 15:44:56 * TD needs to get himself up to speed with git, paperwork filled out etc
1076 2011-04-26 15:44:58 <BlueMatt> devrandom: hes off
1077 2011-04-26 15:45:04 <sipa> TD: by the way, i have an openssl-based ecdsa key recovery working
1078 2011-04-26 15:45:08 <TD> B0g4r7: it's already done. they are separate networks
1079 2011-04-26 15:45:10 <TD> sipa: nice!
1080 2011-04-26 15:45:13 <devrandom> ok
1081 2011-04-26 15:45:27 <B0g4r7> mmm...well...yes.
1082 2011-04-26 15:45:29 <gavinandresen> sipa:  but... why?
1083 2011-04-26 15:45:38 <gavinandresen> (bottleneck is already CPU, why make it worse?)
1084 2011-04-26 15:45:56 <gavinandresen> ("because I can" is a valid response, by the way)
1085 2011-04-26 15:46:06 <sipa> gavinandresen: i haven't benchmarked it, but key recovery shouldn't be slower than verification, actually
1086 2011-04-26 15:46:09 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: probably no worse for cpu
1087 2011-04-26 15:46:17 <sipa> obviously, i still need to do benchmarks
1088 2011-04-26 15:46:24 <gavinandresen> But you have to recover the CPU AND THEN STILL check the signature, right?
1089 2011-04-26 15:46:29 <sipa> no
1090 2011-04-26 15:46:32 <gavinandresen> (err, recover the key)
1091 2011-04-26 15:46:38 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: theoretically you dont have to check the sig
1092 2011-04-26 15:46:49 <sipa> if you recover a key, and that key's hash matches your address, you're done
1093 2011-04-26 15:47:04 Spenvo has joined
1094 2011-04-26 15:47:05 <sipa> the algorithm will only produce keys for which that sig is a valid sig
1095 2011-04-26 15:47:48 <TD> bottleneck is CPU today. in future it might move to become the RAM required to store the block chain (assuming that big miners have many cores)
1096 2011-04-26 15:47:58 <TD> so shrinking the block chain is still useful. but the change isn't backwards compatible.
1097 2011-04-26 15:48:22 <TD> if it's included today, perhaps in a year or two years if miners start complaining that the storage overheads are getting too heavy, it could be activated
1098 2011-04-26 15:48:27 <TD> as by that point hopefully everyone is upgraded
1099 2011-04-26 15:48:35 <TD> ie - kept around in our back pocket in case it's needed
1100 2011-04-26 15:48:43 <sipa> for a typical 2-txin-to-2-txout transaction, the size (of the whole tx) would go from 438 to 290 bytes
1101 2011-04-26 15:48:47 <BlueMatt> TD: that is what I was saying
1102 2011-04-26 15:48:58 <TD> ah, sorry for duplicating :) i wasn't watching irc before
1103 2011-04-26 15:48:59 <BlueMatt> keep it off until strictly necessary
1104 2011-04-26 15:49:11 <sipa> it does put stronger constraints on alternative implementations
1105 2011-04-26 15:49:11 <BlueMatt> TD: never a problem, I do that all the time
1106 2011-04-26 15:49:41 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jgarzik is there a reason pushpool uses sbin instead of bin?
1107 2011-04-26 15:49:42 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1108 2011-04-26 15:49:47 <TD> sipa: how so?
1109 2011-04-26 15:50:03 <sipa> TD: as they would also need to implement the additional opcodes, obviousl
1110 2011-04-26 15:50:08 <TD> afaik the only alternative implementation today that tries to verify txns is bitdollar and it doesn't even run scripts
1111 2011-04-26 15:50:17 <BlueMatt> just more stuff to implement
1112 2011-04-26 15:50:28 <BlueMatt> assuming you want to verify txes yourself
1113 2011-04-26 15:50:29 <TD> right, but as no such implementation exists today, it's not a big deal to give them even more work :-)
1114 2011-04-26 15:50:33 <BlueMatt> true
1115 2011-04-26 15:50:35 <gavinandresen> sipa:  ok.  carry on then.  But a factor of less-than-two storage savings... at the cost of an incompatible addition to Script.cpp ... I'm not enthused.
1116 2011-04-26 15:50:36 Construct has joined
1117 2011-04-26 15:51:03 <TD> actually i'm wrong ... i'd have to support it too
1118 2011-04-26 15:51:12 <luke-jr> TD: but nothing could stop a rogue miner from using it in blocks early, and forking the chain
1119 2011-04-26 15:51:38 <devrandom> the miner would not get their blocks accepted, wasting gpus
1120 2011-04-26 15:51:38 <sipa> a rogue miner who starts to use it before the official "introduction time", would just be ignored by others
1121 2011-04-26 15:51:39 <TD> as even thin clients need to understand how to extract the relevant addresses/pubkeys from scripts
1122 2011-04-26 15:51:43 <TD> even though they don't run them
1123 2011-04-26 15:51:46 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: could be disabled till block x
1124 2011-04-26 15:52:00 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: that would do it I guess
1125 2011-04-26 15:52:05 skyewm has joined
1126 2011-04-26 15:52:44 <devrandom> I like the enable after block x solution for upgrades... maybe should also have an alert system for "your version is considered obsolete by n peers"
1127 2011-04-26 15:52:46 * Kiba ate a burrito, a chili dog and potatoe chip
1128 2011-04-26 15:53:01 <luke-jr> devrandom: there is such an alert system already
1129 2011-04-26 15:53:11 <luke-jr> devrandom: except it's monarchial
1130 2011-04-26 15:53:19 <BlueMatt> Kiba: potato chip seems kinda random there, just one?
1131 2011-04-26 15:53:21 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * rdf81e33c4c2f gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.3.ebuild pushpool-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool: oh yeah, I forgot about econf... http://tinyurl.com/42t3axq
1132 2011-04-26 15:53:28 <devrandom> luke-jr - the satoshi alert?
1133 2011-04-26 15:53:32 <luke-jr> yeah
1134 2011-04-26 15:53:44 <Kiba> BlueMatt: naw, vingear and salt chips, my favorite
1135 2011-04-26 15:54:11 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: what would you think of modifying the alert to relay signed-by-other-key messages on the same terms as a free txn?
1136 2011-04-26 15:54:14 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: can we get you to add a new alert key for yourself...or get satoshi to give you his?
1137 2011-04-26 15:54:14 <devrandom> I'm thinking about something that encourages people to upgrade if their version is obsolete.  based on security upgrades or upcoming breaking changes
1138 2011-04-26 15:54:30 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: so, for example, other clients can broadcast alerts only to their client users
1139 2011-04-26 15:55:43 <gavinandresen> luke-jr:  interesting idea
1140 2011-04-26 15:56:22 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: interesting you should mention that, Satoshi sent me the alert key this morning.
1141 2011-04-26 15:56:31 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ah, good then
1142 2011-04-26 15:56:47 <Kiba> will satoshi come back, gavinandresen?
1143 2011-04-26 15:57:06 <BlueMatt> Kiba: last I heard, he had "moved on to other projects"
1144 2011-04-26 15:57:17 <BlueMatt> and that bitcoin is "in good hands"
1145 2011-04-26 15:57:17 <Kiba> totally inaccurate rumor methink
1146 2011-04-26 15:57:19 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1147 2011-04-26 15:57:33 <BlueMatt> Kiba: that is what TD told me satoshi said in an email
1148 2011-04-26 15:57:36 <Kiba> gavinandresen: so...what's official statement
1149 2011-04-26 15:57:38 <gavinandresen> Kiba:  I don't know, he says he's moving on to other things, so expect him to fade away even more.
1150 2011-04-26 15:57:54 <eps> is that possible?
1151 2011-04-26 15:57:54 <Kiba> so we will never knows the true identity of the project?
1152 2011-04-26 15:57:59 <noagendamarket> :(
1153 2011-04-26 15:57:59 <Kiba> err
1154 2011-04-26 15:58:01 <Kiba> founder
1155 2011-04-26 15:58:04 <TD> yeah, i asked him that and he gave me the answer BlueMatt said. he's gone for good, but still answers questions from time to time
1156 2011-04-26 15:58:20 <Kiba> so. we will
1157 2011-04-26 15:58:29 <TD> some of them at least .... if they don't involve him doing much work :-) i asked him if he'd be willing to review a wiki page and he ignored that part of my mail, heh
1158 2011-04-26 15:58:38 <Kiba> never know how the true origin of bitcoin..how its inventor come up with a system
1159 2011-04-26 15:58:58 <eps> well the cryptocurrency is not a new idea
1160 2011-04-26 15:59:01 <BlueMatt> Kiba: if it catches on, someone will do the research
1161 2011-04-26 15:59:21 <eps> but the execution of bitcoin is very impressive
1162 2011-04-26 15:59:24 <Kiba> satoshi is a true hero in any case
1163 2011-04-26 15:59:30 <BlueMatt> eps: no, but satoshi was one of the first to come up with the idea of proof of work
1164 2011-04-26 15:59:38 <Kiba> no
1165 2011-04-26 15:59:44 <BlueMatt> he wasnt the first
1166 2011-04-26 15:59:45 <Kiba> he just integrate other people's idea
1167 2011-04-26 15:59:50 <BlueMatt> but the first to implement it very well afaik
1168 2011-04-26 16:00:02 <xxxxxxx> BlueMatt, implementing proof of work is ez as shit
1169 2011-04-26 16:00:03 <eps> i always say execution beats ideas
1170 2011-04-26 16:00:06 <TD> using partial pre-images of zero as a proof of work is from Dr Adam Back
1171 2011-04-26 16:00:08 <eps> i have ideas
1172 2011-04-26 16:00:12 <TD> the block chain is (afaik) a new algorithm
1173 2011-04-26 16:00:17 <BlueMatt> xxxxxxx: never said it was hard, but bitcoin is done VERY well
1174 2011-04-26 16:00:17 <xxxxxxx> u might be confusing i w the block chain
1175 2011-04-26 16:00:22 <eps> but i don't necessarily execute them very well
1176 2011-04-26 16:00:27 <Kiba> satoshi will remain...a legend
1177 2011-04-26 16:00:31 DingoRabiit has joined
1178 2011-04-26 16:00:35 <MacRohard> bootstrapping the currency by allowing everyone to mine coins might be a satoshi inention
1179 2011-04-26 16:00:41 <MacRohard> invention
1180 2011-04-26 16:01:00 <Kiba> his invention is ingenuiously puting together all the ideas
1181 2011-04-26 16:01:01 <DingoRabiit> BlueMatt:  Hey man you active? i lost your Repay address, Could you please send me it ina PM? It's JackRabiit.
1182 2011-04-26 16:01:02 <xxxxxxx> BlueMatt, proof of work is like a few lines of code and was implemented multiple times to prevent spam a long time ago
1183 2011-04-26 16:01:24 <Kiba> satoshi might come up with a new project under a different name in a few years
1184 2011-04-26 16:01:51 <gavinandresen> We'll know it's him by all the pszStrings in the code....
1185 2011-04-26 16:01:56 <eps> heh
1186 2011-04-26 16:01:58 <Kiba> lol
1187 2011-04-26 16:02:03 <BlueMatt> xxxxxxx: but using it in a currency like satoshi and his clear talent in the code...
1188 2011-04-26 16:02:19 DingoRabiit has quit (Client Quit)
1189 2011-04-26 16:02:21 <xxxxxxx> BlueMatt, im not saying anyhting about satoshi or bitcoin, just proof o work
1190 2011-04-26 16:02:27 <eps> there is nothing new under the sun
1191 2011-04-26 16:02:31 <BlueMatt> Kiba: I have a feeling satoshi will come back to bitcoin under a different name if it catches on
1192 2011-04-26 16:02:41 Zarutian has joined
1193 2011-04-26 16:02:41 <BlueMatt> xxxxxxx: what eps said
1194 2011-04-26 16:02:46 * Blitzboom will never come to know the feeling of "one cpu, one vote"
1195 2011-04-26 16:02:46 <eps> everything is built on existing ideas
1196 2011-04-26 16:03:03 <TD> he may well end up as a regular user of it
1197 2011-04-26 16:03:14 <BlueMatt> there hasnt been anything big new in comp sci that is big in a long time
1198 2011-04-26 16:03:17 <TD> whether he takes part in the community beyond that is something we'll never know. personally i doubt it.
1199 2011-04-26 16:03:32 <TD> he was working on it for nearly 4 years now. i know from past experience that after 4 years of a project you do want to move on
1200 2011-04-26 16:03:39 <Kiba> we will never figure out
1201 2011-04-26 16:03:42 <Kiba> and even if he told us
1202 2011-04-26 16:03:47 <Kiba> we would never believe him :)
1203 2011-04-26 16:03:49 <BlueMatt> TD: I agree
1204 2011-04-26 16:04:07 danbri has joined
1205 2011-04-26 16:04:28 <devrandom> Kiba - he has a pubkey, so he can prove his identity if he wants
1206 2011-04-26 16:04:42 <BlueMatt> devrandom: I doubt he would
1207 2011-04-26 16:04:49 <devrandom> right
1208 2011-04-26 16:04:54 <BlueMatt> the mystery is great
1209 2011-04-26 16:05:35 <Blitzboom> i’m wondering if he will ever sell his coins
1210 2011-04-26 16:05:44 <Kiba> probably won't
1211 2011-04-26 16:05:46 <Kiba> for a long time
1212 2011-04-26 16:05:53 <Blitzboom> or wait until he can purchase whatever he wants with them
1213 2011-04-26 16:06:17 <Kiba> and nobody will be able to know that he's the world's richest man  by that point
1214 2011-04-26 16:06:20 <devrandom> were the genesis coins ever spent?  I guess I can easily check that in blockexplorer
1215 2011-04-26 16:06:21 <BlueMatt> he wont sell the ones from the first blocks that we know are his
1216 2011-04-26 16:06:55 <BlueMatt> devrandom: no, and I highly doubt satoshi will ever spend those
1217 2011-04-26 16:06:58 <eps> can you choose which bitcoins to spend?
1218 2011-04-26 16:07:00 <BlueMatt> if he still has the keys to them
1219 2011-04-26 16:07:07 <BlueMatt> eps: not in the current client
1220 2011-04-26 16:07:09 <eps> i guess you could put them in different wallets
1221 2011-04-26 16:07:11 <BlueMatt> but satoshi easily could
1222 2011-04-26 16:07:24 <BlueMatt> he knows the software pretty well ;)
1223 2011-04-26 16:07:25 <Kiba> he can launder his money
1224 2011-04-26 16:07:38 <TD> i think we should open bets on which "who is satoshi" conspiracy theory becomes the most popular
1225 2011-04-26 16:07:48 <xelister> gavinandresen: yeah, how could you type all this hungarian notation :<
1226 2011-04-26 16:07:49 <Blitzboom> i hope satoshi hasn’t lost his keys :D
1227 2011-04-26 16:07:54 <xelister> TD: I know
1228 2011-04-26 16:07:57 <BlueMatt> TD: Its gavin ;)
1229 2011-04-26 16:08:00 <TD> my bet is on gavin too :-)
1230 2011-04-26 16:08:05 <eps> some say he started writing code at the age of 2
1231 2011-04-26 16:08:09 <Kiba> lol
1232 2011-04-26 16:08:20 <xelister> information on who is Satoshi (except speculation about gavinandresen)
1233 2011-04-26 16:08:26 <xelister> for 10 BTC
1234 2011-04-26 16:08:38 <xelister> or next higher better =)  (that can choose to get it in private)
1235 2011-04-26 16:08:45 <eps> some say he is descended from adam smith
1236 2011-04-26 16:08:50 <TD> haha
1237 2011-04-26 16:08:59 <TD> chuck norris has nothing on satoshi
1238 2011-04-26 16:09:06 <eps> all we know is... his name is satoshi, seriously, that is all we know
1239 2011-04-26 16:09:16 <xelister> more exactly, I found a (fictional) charactere that closelly reassembles Satoshi AND is quite known
1240 2011-04-26 16:09:20 <BlueMatt> some say he is a russian coder who has spent his entire life as an orphan in a code house (apparently they have those in russia)
1241 2011-04-26 16:09:41 <xelister> guys?
1242 2011-04-26 16:09:48 <xelister> *** I found a (fictional) charactere that closelly reassembles Satoshi AND is quite known ****
1243 2011-04-26 16:09:58 <BlueMatt> who?
1244 2011-04-26 16:10:00 <xelister> more then 1:1,000,000 close match
1245 2011-04-26 16:10:11 <gavinandresen> Satoshi did suggest this morning that I (we) should try to de-emphasize the whole "mysterious founder" thing when talking publically about Bitcoin.  It plays into the "bitcoin is pirate money" meme.
1246 2011-04-26 16:10:12 <xelister> it will cost to find out, starting price 10 btc =)
1247 2011-04-26 16:10:32 <xelister> gavinandresen: I thought only americafags use that
1248 2011-04-26 16:10:43 <TD> yeah
1249 2011-04-26 16:10:46 <xelister> war on children - think about the pirates
1250 2011-04-26 16:10:50 <xelister> no wait, or viceversa
1251 2011-04-26 16:10:52 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: true, for common people its probably best not to, but it will catch on eventually (if bitcoin catches on)
1252 2011-04-26 16:11:06 <TD> between the anonymous founder and the underground black markets there is enough already ....
1253 2011-04-26 16:11:23 <gavinandresen> The press loves a mystery-- gives them a good hook for interesting stories.
1254 2011-04-26 16:11:25 <devrandom> first used key is in block 9.... http://blockexplorer.com/a/fuWLnx1cN
1255 2011-04-26 16:11:40 <eps> anyone who understands what open source is won't be bothered by satoshi's secret identity
1256 2011-04-26 16:11:44 <Kiba> we know next to nothing  about satoshi
1257 2011-04-26 16:12:00 <eps> but it will probably take a while for the average joe to get to that point
1258 2011-04-26 16:12:03 <xelister> jp male
1259 2011-04-26 16:12:06 <xelister> coder
1260 2011-04-26 16:12:08 <xelister> hacker
1261 2011-04-26 16:12:08 <Blitzboom> i don’t want to. satoshi’s anonymity is a necessity to protect him
1262 2011-04-26 16:12:11 <xelister> realted to economy
1263 2011-04-26 16:12:14 <MacRohard> maybe bitcoin was setup by the narcocartels as a way to modernize their distribution system
1264 2011-04-26 16:12:16 <xelister> related to programming
1265 2011-04-26 16:12:19 <gavinandresen> He also suggested that I give you'all more credit-- and I agree, you'all deserve more credit....
1266 2011-04-26 16:12:30 <xelister> will be made RICH slowly if his idea works out
1267 2011-04-26 16:12:47 <Kiba> bitcoin is skynet and we are its machine
1268 2011-04-26 16:12:54 <xelister> and his program has a theme of micro payments, and ~0.01 payments
1269 2011-04-26 16:12:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: the problem is there are many of us, and one of him so more credit to us still means he gets the most ;)
1270 2011-04-26 16:13:03 <xelister> I FOUND A CHARACTER MATCHING ALL ABOVE CRITERIA :)
1271 2011-04-26 16:13:25 <Kiba> Is it L?
1272 2011-04-26 16:13:36 <xelister> no
1273 2011-04-26 16:13:43 <Kiba> japanaese male. world's best detective. Half british.
1274 2011-04-26 16:13:50 <Kiba> love sugar and candy
1275 2011-04-26 16:13:55 <xelister> Satosi is not a fucking detective
1276 2011-04-26 16:13:58 <Kiba> lol
1277 2011-04-26 16:14:10 <xelister> he is a hacker if at all
1278 2011-04-26 16:14:13 <BlueMatt> so...japanese sherlock?
1279 2011-04-26 16:14:14 <xelister> and a bit of revolutionist
1280 2011-04-26 16:14:17 <gavinandresen> no, he's a rogue british secret agent....
1281 2011-04-26 16:14:22 <xelister> and I found person matching the above :)
1282 2011-04-26 16:14:37 <gavinandresen> (damn it, I just did it again.... too much fun speculating....)
1283 2011-04-26 16:14:44 <xelister> gavinandresen: 1000 BTC to know what the person is? Surly its change money for you ;)
1284 2011-04-26 16:14:49 <Kiba> no
1285 2011-04-26 16:15:00 <Blitzboom> satoshi = secret military project
1286 2011-04-26 16:15:06 <Kiba> Satoshi is a half Japanese hacker girl pretending to be a male
1287 2011-04-26 16:15:20 <midnightmagic> i understand what open source is, and satoshi's identity is irrelevant. what's more important is knowing more about the rationale behind the design, and that i don't see.
1288 2011-04-26 16:15:26 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1289 2011-04-26 16:15:26 <BlueMatt> I thought someone did an analysis of post times and determined hes probably american?
1290 2011-04-26 16:15:35 <Kiba> American or British
1291 2011-04-26 16:15:47 <midnightmagic> might just be in the U.S.
1292 2011-04-26 16:15:48 <BlueMatt> Kiba: very, very different time zones
1293 2011-04-26 16:16:27 <TD> midnightmagic: i agree, that's why i've been drilling satoshi with questions for the past months. i'm sure gavin has been doing the same
1294 2011-04-26 16:16:37 <midnightmagic> does he answer you?
1295 2011-04-26 16:16:41 <TD> parts of the design are definitely clearer in my mind now. it's unfortunate that nearly nothing about bitcoin was documented.
1296 2011-04-26 16:16:41 <TD> y
1297 2011-04-26 16:16:46 <TD> beyond the paper
1298 2011-04-26 16:16:51 <TD> yes he does answer me, though sometimes it takes a few days
1299 2011-04-26 16:17:11 <midnightmagic> are you writing this stuff down somewhere?
1300 2011-04-26 16:17:14 <devrandom> TD - what remains unclear?  economic dynamics?
1301 2011-04-26 16:17:20 <TD> the emails come in at basically random times. he uses outlook express on a mac, i suspect he artificially delays responses to make it harder to figure out where he is :-)
1302 2011-04-26 16:17:31 <TD> no, some details of how best to use the more obscure features
1303 2011-04-26 16:17:35 <xelister> SATOSHI
1304 2011-04-26 16:17:37 <xelister> USES
1305 2011-04-26 16:17:40 <xelister> OUTLOOK EXPRESS
1306 2011-04-26 16:17:42 <xelister> ????????????????????????????????????????
1307 2011-04-26 16:17:43 <xelister> what the fuck
1308 2011-04-26 16:17:44 <luke-jr> lol
1309 2011-04-26 16:17:48 <xelister> what the fuck the fuck.
1310 2011-04-26 16:17:51 <luke-jr> that explains a bit
1311 2011-04-26 16:17:52 <xelister> only retard use OE
1312 2011-04-26 16:17:53 <BlueMatt> probably faking th headers
1313 2011-04-26 16:17:55 <xelister> *retards
1314 2011-04-26 16:18:03 <luke-jr> OE isn't all that bad
1315 2011-04-26 16:18:05 <luke-jr> but it IS Windows
1316 2011-04-26 16:18:24 <luke-jr> xelister: he probably emails from a library
1317 2011-04-26 16:18:29 <TD> he didn't comment when i asked him about the dynamics of mining in a fully fee based system. but i already decided it won't likely be an issue so i'm not too worried about that ;-)
1318 2011-04-26 16:18:36 <devrandom> TD - curious to hear which ones?
1319 2011-04-26 16:18:47 <B0g4r7> It would be good to preserve those emails.
1320 2011-04-26 16:18:54 <xelister> well
1321 2011-04-26 16:18:55 <TD> i've been asking mostly about things like sequence numbers, nLockTime, designing distributed contracts and some details of how he imagined thin clients to work.
1322 2011-04-26 16:18:56 <gavinandresen> TD: actually, I haven't been grilling him-- I've been too busy with other stuff to dive deep into the code.  You should definitely write up what you've learned.
1323 2011-04-26 16:19:09 <xelister> I know a personal that matches Satoshi as closelly as 1 in 10 milion or so =)
1324 2011-04-26 16:19:15 <TD> yeah. i'm going to write up a wiki page on the distributed contracts stuff
1325 2011-04-26 16:19:28 <TD> like i said, i asked if he'd review that but he ignored that part of my mail. i think he wants to stay as hands off as possible now.
1326 2011-04-26 16:19:31 <Kiba> distributed contracts
1327 2011-04-26 16:19:35 <TD> i'll write up what i've learned when i feel i understand it a bit better
1328 2011-04-26 16:19:40 <midnightmagic> TD: can i request that you write these things down somewhere so it's not just stuck in the half-life of someone's brain? :(
1329 2011-04-26 16:20:11 <midnightmagic> are you barred from posting his discussion with you?
1330 2011-04-26 16:20:19 <BlueMatt> TD: does he still use the @gmx.com email?
1331 2011-04-26 16:20:31 duosrx has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1332 2011-04-26 16:20:39 Teslah has joined
1333 2011-04-26 16:20:52 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: you think TD throws away emails, he uses gmail, wasnt that the whole point google pushed when they started gmail?
1334 2011-04-26 16:20:53 <BurtyB> oi xelister I wouldnt class myself as a retarded OE user :p
1335 2011-04-26 16:21:21 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: so Google throws away emails for you?
1336 2011-04-26 16:21:24 slush has joined
1337 2011-04-26 16:21:37 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: point was they dont
1338 2011-04-26 16:21:46 <BlueMatt> ie gmail was designed so that you never delete email
1339 2011-04-26 16:21:46 <phantomcircuit> there's a thunderbird extension that forges headers, it defaults to outlook express
1340 2011-04-26 16:21:55 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: first off, i didn't know that. secondly, it doesn't matter: if TD gets hit by a bus, all that conversation "goes away".
1341 2011-04-26 16:22:27 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: it was mostly sarcastic to point out google's odd habits as a company
1342 2011-04-26 16:22:50 <midnightmagic> more sarcasm, doh. of course. it's BM.
1343 2011-04-26 16:22:56 <midnightmagic> my mistake
1344 2011-04-26 16:22:57 <TD> i keep all the mail, obviously
1345 2011-04-26 16:23:11 <BlueMatt> yep, sorry...I really need to stop doing that online
1346 2011-04-26 16:23:16 <TD> and he still responds to me on the gmx.com address. but i don't know if he replies to everyone. i think justmoon contacted him asking about official approval for the video and didn't get a response.
1347 2011-04-26 16:23:30 <midnightmagic> BlueMatt: I don't think so, i say keep it up, it's more interesting that way
1348 2011-04-26 16:23:34 <TD> my impression is he's willing to discuss the technical details, perhaps with a few people, but otherwise doesn't want to be involved with the project any more. which makes sense.
1349 2011-04-26 16:23:53 Greek_o_nikos has joined
1350 2011-04-26 16:24:35 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: :)
1351 2011-04-26 16:24:48 <genjix> TD: do you use sync threads or async reactors?
1352 2011-04-26 16:25:09 <TD> genjix: i'm lacking context. use in what ?
1353 2011-04-26 16:25:13 <TD> bitcoinj? gmail?
1354 2011-04-26 16:25:24 <genjix> for connections in bitcoinj
1355 2011-04-26 16:25:32 <devrandom> BlueMatt - is autotools going into .21?
1356 2011-04-26 16:25:33 <TD> threads
1357 2011-04-26 16:25:33 <genjix> i think you use threads
1358 2011-04-26 16:25:42 <genjix> kk
1359 2011-04-26 16:25:48 <BlueMatt> devrandom: no, just 0.4
1360 2011-04-26 16:25:51 <TD> by the way, satoshi anticipated the rise of GPU mining right from the start
1361 2011-04-26 16:25:55 <devrandom> ok
1362 2011-04-26 16:26:03 <genjix> ohh interesting
1363 2011-04-26 16:26:05 <BlueMatt> devrandom: .21 is probably final as is
1364 2011-04-26 16:26:26 <BlueMatt> TD: I thought he objected to it strongly when it became popular
1365 2011-04-26 16:26:33 <TD> at least in 2009 he believed miners would set a minimum fee for block inclusion. but as discussed that can lead to a race to the bottom. i'm not sure he had fully thought that out, at least not back then.
1366 2011-04-26 16:26:34 <midnightmagic> TD: well, still, i think it's important that information about the design be open. else, the project isn't open, it's (a tiny bit) like a closed-source blob that has to be reverse-engineered by people who are interested in participating.
1367 2011-04-26 16:26:46 <TD> BlueMatt: i don't know. did he? i wasn't paying attention to bitcoin back then.
1368 2011-04-26 16:27:04 <BlueMatt> TD: neither was I, but someone told me that...shouldnt be hard to check on the forums
1369 2011-04-26 16:27:08 <jaromil> i recomment having autotools in 0.4 not now
1370 2011-04-26 16:27:13 <BlueMatt> but I not worth the time
1371 2011-04-26 16:27:16 <TD> midnightmagic: yes. i've been posting excerpts from his mails to the forums.
1372 2011-04-26 16:27:20 <jaromil> i'llrebase the pull req tomorrow
1373 2011-04-26 16:27:21 <BlueMatt> jaromil: thats the plan
1374 2011-04-26 16:27:21 <midnightmagic> excellent
1375 2011-04-26 16:27:28 <jaromil> test with genjix and ask him opinions
1376 2011-04-26 16:27:33 <luke-jr> TD: a race to the bottom?
1377 2011-04-26 16:27:35 ezl has joined
1378 2011-04-26 16:27:42 <jaromil> BlueMatt: i'm having a mingw env on my own comp now, not so complete
1379 2011-04-26 16:27:45 <TD> midnightmagic: do you have any specific design points you'd like clarified? i can include them when i next send him questions
1380 2011-04-26 16:27:47 <jaromil> but so that i can test myself a bit
1381 2011-04-26 16:27:58 <TD> i guess at some point he'll stop answering me. so better to do the questions together, imho
1382 2011-04-26 16:28:05 <jaromil> would like to have the new or at least the old buildsystem working with it
1383 2011-04-26 16:28:23 <BlueMatt> jaromil: ok
1384 2011-04-26 16:28:31 <BlueMatt> jaromil: ubuntu?
1385 2011-04-26 16:28:34 <jaromil> debian 6
1386 2011-04-26 16:28:38 sacarlson has joined
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1388 2011-04-26 16:28:43 <midnightmagic> TD: you're "td" on the forum?
1389 2011-04-26 16:28:49 <TD> no
1390 2011-04-26 16:28:50 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: [mike]
1391 2011-04-26 16:28:52 <TD> that's confusing isn't it
1392 2011-04-26 16:28:59 <midnightmagic> oh
1393 2011-04-26 16:29:02 <midnightmagic> very confusing.
1394 2011-04-26 16:29:08 <devrandom> yes ;)
1395 2011-04-26 16:29:26 <BlueMatt> jaromil: oh, not sure what will/wont work there but Id assume most of the mingw packages are identical
1396 2011-04-26 16:29:43 <jaromil> as of packages, mingw has just the compiler
1397 2011-04-26 16:29:49 <jaromil> the rest its by hand
1398 2011-04-26 16:29:52 <jaromil> i have openssl by now
1399 2011-04-26 16:30:02 <BlueMatt> as a side note, mingw is not very cooperative on other platforms as wx + boost dont want to compile with different paths/compiler names/etc
1400 2011-04-26 16:30:04 <jaromil> then had to sleep :) and today i'm on payd jobs so
1401 2011-04-26 16:30:08 Guest3694 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1402 2011-04-26 16:30:17 <jaromil> tomororw meeting with genjix we'll slap it a bit around too
1403 2011-04-26 16:30:31 <BlueMatt> ah, nice
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1406 2011-04-26 16:40:00 DukeOfURL has joined
1407 2011-04-26 16:42:20 kile has joined
1408 2011-04-26 16:43:24 <kile> BlueMatt: when i mine using a pooler my miner sends hashes to the pool right?
1409 2011-04-26 16:43:46 chmod755 has left ("Leaving.")
1410 2011-04-26 16:45:06 <lfm> kile: not really, you send the block headers with nonces which produce the hashes wanted
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1412 2011-04-26 16:45:34 <kile> lfm: im trying to understand how poolers create shares
1413 2011-04-26 16:45:59 <lfm> kile: well first do you understand how solo mining works?
1414 2011-04-26 16:46:08 <kile> lfm: yes can you explain me a bit?
1415 2011-04-26 16:46:22 <kile> lfm: i dont understand very good how blocks are passed away and stuff
1416 2011-04-26 16:46:45 <kile> lfm: i think each bitcoin client gets a few blocks to solve ( calculate a valid hash for the block )
1417 2011-04-26 16:46:49 <kile> thats all i understand
1418 2011-04-26 16:47:19 <xelister> kile: you get milions of milions hashes to solve,  one of them will get you a 50 btc rewar
1419 2011-04-26 16:47:21 <xelister> reward
1420 2011-04-26 16:47:33 <lfm> ok, you're trying to find the 80 byte block headers that produce the hashes which pass the target constraints(difficulty)
1421 2011-04-26 16:47:36 <xelister> depending on luck it can take weeks or months
1422 2011-04-26 16:47:43 <kile> xelister: i see so my bitcoin client gets millions of millons of hashes to solve or blocks?
1423 2011-04-26 16:48:02 <kile> xlister: i think my bitcoin client gets blocks and is asked to hash them, right ?
1424 2011-04-26 16:48:22 <lfm> solving isnt really what your doing. it more like searching
1425 2011-04-26 16:48:23 <xelister> kile: find N so that   sha256( sha256( data + N ) ) < target.      So your comkputer tries milions of N and if he finds the 'correct' one it gets a bonus
1426 2011-04-26 16:48:30 <xxxxxxx> kile, you try to find a random string which hashes to a value less than X, say X is 10, which is really hard to do, when u coop mine, you send the mine pool any value that is less than 100 instead of 10,which is easier to do, and not small enough to solve a block, but small enuf to prove to them you are in fact mining
1427 2011-04-26 16:49:11 <xelister> I even have a pool that mathematicall calculates
1428 2011-04-26 16:49:19 <xelister> if you should be solo mining or not
1429 2011-04-26 16:49:23 <xxxxxxx> so they know what % of hashpower ur contributing to the pool
1430 2011-04-26 16:49:26 <xelister> it consist just few simple questions
1431 2011-04-26 16:49:56 <xelister> actually it is a really easy questionnare to determin if you should solo mine
1432 2011-04-26 16:50:36 <kile> xxxxxxx: why would a pool want the value that be less than 100 ? if it only needs the one thats less than 10 ?
1433 2011-04-26 16:50:46 <xxxxxxx> kile, to prove to them ur actually trying to mien stuff
1434 2011-04-26 16:50:48 <kile> i think the pool would discard those >10
1435 2011-04-26 16:50:50 <xxxxxxx> well, to prove what speed ur hasing at
1436 2011-04-26 16:51:00 <lfm> kila just so it can tell you are trying
1437 2011-04-26 16:51:02 <xxxxxxx> yea it discards them, but this way it knows how much to pay who when someone finally solves a block
1438 2011-04-26 16:51:19 <xxxxxxx> so if i send in hashes < 100 at a rate of 1 per hour and you send tem in at 2 per hour
1439 2011-04-26 16:51:23 <xxxxxxx> ur doing twice as much work as me
1440 2011-04-26 16:52:14 <xelister> well just do the questionnare
1441 2011-04-26 16:52:26 <kile> xxxxxxx: what if everyone on the pool ( all the miners ) just send values that are 80<x<90 ? they will still get shares? and what if there is only one guy that sends the < 10 hash ?
1442 2011-04-26 16:52:39 <lfm> the two numbers are actually more like 2^32 and (2^32 * 100000)
1443 2011-04-26 16:52:42 <xxxxxxx> kile, yea they will
1444 2011-04-26 16:53:02 <kile> it takes the same speed to calculate a <10 hash that to calculate a 80 hash right?
1445 2011-04-26 16:53:06 <xxxxxxx> kile, and the guy that acutally solves the hash will only get whatever his contribution was, he doesnt get anyhting special for finding it
1446 2011-04-26 16:53:32 <xxxxxxx> kile, the only reason u need pooled mining is because it takes so long to find a hash that matches bitcoin's criteria
1447 2011-04-26 16:53:33 <kile> i mean.. sha256( sha256( data + N ) ) = 10 takes the same time that sha256( sha256( data + N ) ) = 80 right?
1448 2011-04-26 16:53:53 <xxxxxxx> pooled mining just means u get paid on a more consistent basis, rather than only once a year getting 50 bucks, u get 10 cents a day or whatever
1449 2011-04-26 16:54:11 <xxxxxxx> kile, no, the 80 one is way easier to find
1450 2011-04-26 16:54:23 <lfm> kile that like poisoning the pool. the ones who poison it do not get any actual advantage but they spoil it for others
1451 2011-04-26 16:54:46 <xxxxxxx> lfm, what spoils it?
1452 2011-04-26 16:54:54 <kile> xxxxxxx: so if i send a pooler lots of hashes that are easy to find... ill increase more quickly my shares
1453 2011-04-26 16:54:59 <lfm> fewer rewards for everyone
1454 2011-04-26 16:55:14 <kile> i can for example just send the pool the more easier hashes first and then ill start trying the harder ones
1455 2011-04-26 16:55:31 <lfm> kile all hashes are euqally easy to find
1456 2011-04-26 16:55:39 <kile> the miner that sends the easiest hashes wins on a pool ? because he will ahve more shares with less computing power
1457 2011-04-26 16:55:43 <xxxxxxx> kile, its not the hashing that is hard, its solving that equation for N
1458 2011-04-26 16:55:56 <kile> ok, got it
1459 2011-04-26 16:56:02 <kile> so all the hashes are equally easy to find
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1461 2011-04-26 16:56:07 <lfm> xxxxxxx: its not really solving any equation
1462 2011-04-26 16:56:18 <xxxxxxx> solving the equation where the right side is less than 80 is say 10x easier than solving where its less than 10
1463 2011-04-26 16:56:21 <kile> <xxxxxxx> kile, no, the 80 one is way easier to find <--- thats not correct
1464 2011-04-26 16:56:34 <kile> lfm just told me all hashes are equally easy to find
1465 2011-04-26 16:56:37 <xxxxxxx> but once in a while when u solve where its less than 80, itll also be less than 10
1466 2011-04-26 16:56:40 <kile> so thats not correct
1467 2011-04-26 16:56:44 <xxxxxxx> and thasts when bitcoin gives the pool the rward
1468 2011-04-26 16:57:01 <xxxxxxx> lfm, sha256(sa256(data+N)) < 10, solve for N
1469 2011-04-26 16:57:12 <kile> xxxxxxx: yes i know but computing the hash takes the same time i mean
1470 2011-04-26 16:57:15 <xxxxxxx> thats close enuf to be able to call it 'solving an equation'
1471 2011-04-26 16:57:34 <xxxxxxx> kile, yes computing the hash takes the smae time, but solving for N does not
1472 2011-04-26 16:57:42 <kile> ok i understand now
1473 2011-04-26 16:57:43 <kile> cool
1474 2011-04-26 16:57:45 <kile> so..
1475 2011-04-26 16:57:45 <lfm> hashes are 256 bits and all possible bit combinations are equally likeley, you just have to try different one till you get one that satifies the criteria
1476 2011-04-26 16:57:54 <kile> my miner sends lots of hashes to the pool
1477 2011-04-26 16:58:07 <lfm> no just a few
1478 2011-04-26 16:58:19 <lfm> it trys many
1479 2011-04-26 16:58:21 <xxxxxxx> kile, depends on what the values are
1480 2011-04-26 16:58:38 <xxxxxxx> if the miner target is really ez, ull send a lot, if its less ez, ull send fewer
1481 2011-04-26 16:58:54 <kile> lfm: the pool gets blocks ( data ) to solve and resend those to the miners for them to calculate a hash for that data ?
1482 2011-04-26 16:58:58 DuoSRX has joined
1483 2011-04-26 16:59:01 <lfm> generally the pools use a target of 32 zero bits
1484 2011-04-26 16:59:22 <lfm> so one out of 2^32 hashes will pass
1485 2011-04-26 16:59:34 <lfm> on average, it is random
1486 2011-04-26 16:59:43 <xxxxxxx> lfm, do you know why it requirs a double hash?, is that to prevent length extension attacks or something ?
1487 2011-04-26 16:59:52 <kile> lfm: i see so the miner just sends the hash that meets the pool difficulty criteria, right ?
1488 2011-04-26 17:00:10 <xxxxxxx> kile: right
1489 2011-04-26 17:00:38 <kile> lfm: and once it sends the hash that meets the poool difficulty criteria the pool records it as a share?
1490 2011-04-26 17:00:38 <xxxxxxx> and the pool operator passes on any to bitcoin that match bitcoins difficulty criteria
1491 2011-04-26 17:00:49 <lfm> the double hash is just to make some shortcuts which theoreticlly might be possible much more unlikly. also the double hash slows everything down
1492 2011-04-26 17:01:10 <xxxxxxx> lfm, do you knwo waht those shortcuts are? is it the length extension attack?
1493 2011-04-26 17:01:13 <lfm> kile right
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1496 2011-04-26 17:01:42 <kile> xxxxxxx: and if some other pool solved the block first?
1497 2011-04-26 17:01:45 kelp has left ()
1498 2011-04-26 17:01:55 <xxxxxxx> kile, thats documented somewhere
1499 2011-04-26 17:01:57 <kile> what happens? the block gets orphan and all the miners wont earn anything?
1500 2011-04-26 17:02:00 <xxxxxxx> u get a split chain until teh next block
1501 2011-04-26 17:02:01 <xxxxxxx> or something
1502 2011-04-26 17:02:01 <lfm> xxxxxxx: not exactly sure but I think it might have something to do with birthday paradox but I might be wrong
1503 2011-04-26 17:02:16 Teslah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1504 2011-04-26 17:02:24 <xxxxxxx> itll stay split as long as people solve blocks at exactly the same time, so tahts unlikely for 1, more unlikely for 2 in a row, even less for 3, etc
1505 2011-04-26 17:02:46 <xxxxxxx> nah im pretty sure birthday paradox isnt why
1506 2011-04-26 17:02:47 <luke-jr> kile: whichever one gets to the big miners first probably wins
1507 2011-04-26 17:03:09 <kile> and the one taht loooses dont earn anything?
1508 2011-04-26 17:03:15 <xxxxxxx> kile, yea
1509 2011-04-26 17:03:18 <lfm> "exactly the same time" is relative to the time it takes for blocks to propagate accress the bitcoin net
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1511 2011-04-26 17:03:28 <xxxxxxx> lfm, right
1512 2011-04-26 17:03:47 <kile> what if i use a cpu to solve a block that i get from the bitcoin network and using my computing power it would take me 1 year to find a valid hash for it ? if someone else solves the block first i will never earn anything?
1513 2011-04-26 17:04:27 <lfm> kile: its not really that you "atke 1 year" its that the AVERAGE time to find one would be 1 year
1514 2011-04-26 17:04:54 <luke-jr> kile: if someone finds a block, you just move on to the next one
1515 2011-04-26 17:05:00 <lfm> every hash has a chance to find a good hash and you preform 1000s of hashes per seconmd
1516 2011-04-26 17:05:06 <luke-jr> kile: also, a CPU wouldn't likely find one within a year
1517 2011-04-26 17:05:15 <xxxxxxx> kile, yea what luke-jr said, u'd jsut move on
1518 2011-04-26 17:05:16 <kile> say for example that my bitcoin daemon gets blocks 1 to solve, and using my computing power i know i can find a hash of  boock1 < current diffuculty in 1 year ( it would take my cpu to get a hash below the target difficulty that time)
1519 2011-04-26 17:05:37 <luke-jr> kile: you don't know that.
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1521 2011-04-26 17:05:42 <lfm> it might find it in 1 secoind
1522 2011-04-26 17:05:43 <kile> if during that year someone else found the valid hash for block 1
1523 2011-04-26 17:06:02 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1524 2011-04-26 17:06:05 <xxxxxxx> kile, then you'd move on to trying to solve one wth the next blok
1525 2011-04-26 17:06:07 <lfm> it might find it in 1 second even if the average time is 1 year
1526 2011-04-26 17:06:08 <luke-jr> kile: then you start working on block 2
1527 2011-04-26 17:06:10 <kile> then after the whole year trying to find the hash, i wont earn anything science someone else solved it first?
1528 2011-04-26 17:06:15 <lfm> it might find it in 1 second even if the average time is 1 year
1529 2011-04-26 17:06:23 <luke-jr> kile: you don't make progress
1530 2011-04-26 17:06:43 <luke-jr> kile: it's just a 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000 chance of finding the block
1531 2011-04-26 17:06:43 <xxxxxxx> kile, the way the probability works out, its that your cpu will probably find the solution for ANY block within a year, it doesnt matter which block
1532 2011-04-26 17:06:45 <kile> kile i understand so it just moves on
1533 2011-04-26 17:06:48 <kile> sorry i didnt read it
1534 2011-04-26 17:06:49 <xxxxxxx> so its not like the year restarts when u move on to the next block
1535 2011-04-26 17:06:51 <luke-jr> kile: and you do that 1000 times each second
1536 2011-04-26 17:07:13 <kile> so if im solving a block and someone else solves it first, my cpu would just move on to the next block ?
1537 2011-04-26 17:07:17 <xxxxxxx> if u had infintie blocks, u could try a different block on each hashing attempt and it would still only take you a year to find a solution for one of them
1538 2011-04-26 17:07:23 <luke-jr> kile: yep
1539 2011-04-26 17:07:32 <lfm> kile like I said EVERY HASH HAS THE SAME CHANCE OF FINDING a winner. you do 1000s of hashes every second. it is only your average chances that you find 1 per year
1540 2011-04-26 17:07:52 <luke-jr> kile: but seriously, CPU mining is a total waste
1541 2011-04-26 17:08:31 <gavinandresen> ... unless you live in a dorm and your electricity is free...
1542 2011-04-26 17:08:31 <kile> ok thanks i understand nows
1543 2011-04-26 17:08:39 <luke-jr> gavinandresen: even then probably :P
1544 2011-04-26 17:08:52 <kile> right?
1545 2011-04-26 17:08:52 <kile> so the probability that the calculator does is the probability to solve any block in an amount of time
1546 2011-04-26 17:08:55 <gavinandresen> (I predict universities cracking down on bitcoin generation as an unintended consequence soon)
1547 2011-04-26 17:09:04 <xxxxxxx> itll take u like a few weeks to even be able to buy a beer
1548 2011-04-26 17:09:26 <lfm> kila "solving" is the wrong way to think of it really
1549 2011-04-26 17:09:37 <luke-jr> I wonder when the wear from having your CPU busy contantly costs more than the yield from mining
1550 2011-04-26 17:10:06 <xxxxxxx> lfm, solving is fine, the equation is just f(x) < y, where f is a function that happens to include sha256
1551 2011-04-26 17:10:42 <lfm> xxxxxxx: except then people think they are making progress toward the solution with each hash
1552 2011-04-26 17:10:46 Spenvo has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
1553 2011-04-26 17:10:58 <xxxxxxx> lfm, yea we'll taht's their fualt for not understanding hashes or math
1554 2011-04-26 17:11:37 rly has joined
1555 2011-04-26 17:12:03 <lfm> xxxxxxx: and a completly random search for a solution is not "solving" as most people think og the term
1556 2011-04-26 17:12:23 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1557 2011-04-26 17:13:07 <xxxxxxx> lfm, yea true
1558 2011-04-26 17:13:18 <rly> Does anyone know the name of the file where I can run aticonfig --od-gettemperature without a user being already logged in?
1559 2011-04-26 17:13:50 <rly> (Linux)
1560 2011-04-26 17:13:58 <lfm> rly in startx?
1561 2011-04-26 17:14:36 <rly> lfm: that is not a documented place to modify stuff, AFAIK.
1562 2011-04-26 17:14:53 <lfm> startx is just a bash script
1563 2011-04-26 17:15:03 <rly> lfm: also when my distribution ships a new version of startx, I don't want to lose changes.
1564 2011-04-26 17:15:17 <rly> lfm: I knew that.
1565 2011-04-26 17:15:30 <kile> lfm: so basically my miner sends the pool a hash that meets the pool difficulty criteria and the pool records a share for me because of that, right ? then when the pool finds one block it distributes earnings to each miner according to how many shares they contributed, right ?
1566 2011-04-26 17:15:36 <lfm> rly: ok in startx it calls user scripts which you should be able to play with
1567 2011-04-26 17:15:39 <xxxxxxx> lfm, yea ok just verified that the doubel hash it prevent length extension attacks, double hash is similar to what HMACs use i think
1568 2011-04-26 17:15:42 <BurtyB> rly copy the system xinitrc file into ~/.xinitrc and change that?
1569 2011-04-26 17:15:55 <kile> *when the pool solves a block
1570 2011-04-26 17:16:05 <rly> BurtyB: only gdm is started, no user is actually logged in.
1571 2011-04-26 17:16:10 <xxxxxxx> kile, yea thats right
1572 2011-04-26 17:16:15 <kile> cool :D
1573 2011-04-26 17:16:23 <kile> thanks guys! lfm and xxxxxx
1574 2011-04-26 17:16:45 <kile> and if the pool doesnt solves a block it doesnt records my shares'
1575 2011-04-26 17:16:46 <kile> ?
1576 2011-04-26 17:16:48 <xxxxxxx> some real #s, my macbookpro took like 3 days for me to 0.06 bitcoin or something
1577 2011-04-26 17:17:02 <rly> xxxxxxx: with GPU or CPU?
1578 2011-04-26 17:17:06 <xxxxxxx> CPU
1579 2011-04-26 17:17:08 cuddlefish_ has joined
1580 2011-04-26 17:17:30 <xxxxxxx> oh wait sorry, it wasnt my macbookpor it was some 6core amd server
1581 2011-04-26 17:18:05 <kile> what if i send hashes to a pool march 14th and then i disconnect from the pool, and then march 18th i connect back to the pool and send more hashes.... and march 20th the pool solves a block, ill get paid for the shares i contributed on march 14th plus the shares of marth 18th ?
1582 2011-04-26 17:18:10 <sethsethseth> is there any way i can see live order updates on MTgox?
1583 2011-04-26 17:18:14 <lfm> kile it will record your shares till someone solves a blcok no matter how long it takes (althogh some pools will age your shares so old shares are worth less that new ones)
1584 2011-04-26 17:18:15 <BurtyB> rly in that case why not put it in rc.local and hope X has started by the time it gets there (or you could use @reboot in cron)?
1585 2011-04-26 17:18:30 <sethsethseth> or live trade history?
1586 2011-04-26 17:18:33 <xxxxxxx> sethsethseth, bitcoinmonitor.com maybe ?
1587 2011-04-26 17:18:41 <rly> BurtyB: hope is not in my dictionary.
1588 2011-04-26 17:18:51 <xxxxxxx> sethsethseth, doesnt mtgox have a public feed for that data?
1589 2011-04-26 17:18:53 <BurtyB> rly bah :)
1590 2011-04-26 17:19:13 <rly> BurtyB: isn't rc.local still before X starts?
1591 2011-04-26 17:19:15 <sethsethseth> yes, but its really hard to read the data
1592 2011-04-26 17:19:25 <kile> lfm, so my asumption was correct? it will be 14th + 18th shares on the 20th ?
1593 2011-04-26 17:19:29 <rly> BurtyB: I think Linux is a mess in that area.
1594 2011-04-26 17:20:29 <lfm> kile I dont know what that means
1595 2011-04-26 17:20:46 <kile> lfm: what if i send hashes to a pool march 14th and then i disconnect from the pool, and then march 18th i connect back to the pool and send more hashes.... and march 20th the pool solves a block, ill get paid for the shares i contributed on march 14th plus the shares of marth 18th ?
1596 2011-04-26 17:20:59 justmoon has joined
1597 2011-04-26 17:21:10 <BurtyB> rly X normally starts through inittab (or equiv) and rc.local gets ran last out of the init scripts
1598 2011-04-26 17:21:27 <xxxxxxx> kile, all that really depends on the pool operator/rules, but the idea is that the more hashes you've sent to the pool the more you've helped, so all your shares should count once the pool atually does find asolution
1599 2011-04-26 17:21:43 larsivi has joined
1600 2011-04-26 17:21:56 <lfm> kile if there was nothing found in bewteen. you disconnect is irrelevant. it will send you your share of a find no matter if you are connected or not
1601 2011-04-26 17:21:59 <kile> xxxxxx and the pools check the validity of the solutions i send them right
1602 2011-04-26 17:22:11 <rly> BurtyB: so, they are started in parallel?
1603 2011-04-26 17:22:11 <lfm> kile ya
1604 2011-04-26 17:22:17 <xxxxxxx> kile, yes
1605 2011-04-26 17:22:29 <rly> BurtyB: or with non-deterministic concurrency to me more correct.
1606 2011-04-26 17:22:41 <xxxxxxx> lfm, http://www.cs.rit.edu/~ark/lectures/onewayhash/onewayhash.shtml  search double hashing
1607 2011-04-26 17:22:44 <BurtyB> rly yes (non-deterministic)
1608 2011-04-26 17:23:07 <rly> BurtyB: so, in theory I could just wait until X is up?
1609 2011-04-26 17:23:25 <rly> (still a hacky solution)
1610 2011-04-26 17:24:25 <kile> so basically at a given time all the bitcoin noes are trying to solve the same block right ? unless there are blocks slitted, right ?
1611 2011-04-26 17:24:29 <kile> *nodes
1612 2011-04-26 17:24:37 <kile> *splitted
1613 2011-04-26 17:24:47 <BurtyB> rly yeah, or keep running the app until the exit code is what you want sleeping inbetween
1614 2011-04-26 17:24:49 <lfm> rly: X may be running but still initializing
1615 2011-04-26 17:24:51 <xxxxxxx> kile, yea
1616 2011-04-26 17:25:17 <kile> xxxxxx and it a block slipts, when then its considered orphan ?
1617 2011-04-26 17:25:19 <kile> *if a block splits
1618 2011-04-26 17:25:26 <lfm> kila well it would be the same block number but the blocks they are searching are all different
1619 2011-04-26 17:25:39 <xxxxxxx> im not very sure on the exact stuff that happens when they split
1620 2011-04-26 17:25:58 <kile> lfm so everyone will be trying to solve a block with different transactions ( data )?
1621 2011-04-26 17:26:12 <rly> lfm: do you know whether X runs another script that I can use?
1622 2011-04-26 17:27:03 <lfm> kile: ya , they all use there own generated coin address for the payout with makes the merkle tree hashes unique and the merkle tree root is in the block header
1623 2011-04-26 17:27:21 <rly> kile: basically everyone computes  sha256(X + "user blah, now owns 50BTC") <= target.
1624 2011-04-26 17:27:38 <rly> Everyone has a different blah.
1625 2011-04-26 17:27:41 <kile> whats X ?
1626 2011-04-26 17:27:49 <kile> everyone has the same X right ?
1627 2011-04-26 17:27:51 <rly> So, they also need a different X.
1628 2011-04-26 17:28:04 <lfm> rly there are lots of scripts for X but I dont knwo what would work for you
1629 2011-04-26 17:28:05 <kile> they just change the user thing so that they can earn the coins themselves, right ?
1630 2011-04-26 17:28:07 <rly> X is just a number.
1631 2011-04-26 17:28:22 <luke-jr> yep, it comes after 9
1632 2011-04-26 17:28:23 <rly> kile: blah is also a variable.
1633 2011-04-26 17:28:34 <lfm> the X window ssytem
1634 2011-04-26 17:28:40 <RenaKunisaki> they try to find an X that makes the equation true?
1635 2011-04-26 17:28:49 <kile> blah would be the transacations to transfer money between addresses?
1636 2011-04-26 17:29:05 <rly> Yes, but it might be that you need two sha256 hashes. I do not know the details, but that is the basic idea.
1637 2011-04-26 17:29:11 nathan7 has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1638 2011-04-26 17:29:19 <lianj> rly: i thought bits are the target
1639 2011-04-26 17:29:32 <kile> i see cool
1640 2011-04-26 17:29:45 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1641 2011-04-26 17:31:18 <kile> when someone solves a block it notifies everyone else right?
1642 2011-04-26 17:31:24 <midnightmagic> yes
1643 2011-04-26 17:32:30 <kile> midnightmagic: and everyone else takes it block as "valid" and starts to find a hash for a new block
1644 2011-04-26 17:32:36 <kile> *its
1645 2011-04-26 17:32:51 <midnightmagic> assuming they think it's valid, yeah
1646 2011-04-26 17:33:08 <lfm> kile:  everyon check if it is valid
1647 2011-04-26 17:33:11 <RenaKunisaki> I'm curious how it tells them it's found a valid solution
1648 2011-04-26 17:33:31 <RenaKunisaki> just giving them the solution it found?
1649 2011-04-26 17:33:32 <kile> lfm: they check the transactions inside the block to see if its valid ? how do they check if its valid?
1650 2011-04-26 17:34:03 <lfm> kile: they check if the hashes are right and they check if the txn inputs are right
1651 2011-04-26 17:34:38 <lfm> each input is from a previous output
1652 2011-04-26 17:34:49 <kile> lfm: and how do they know if the txn inputs are valid?
1653 2011-04-26 17:35:01 <RenaKunisaki> if you find a valid solution and tell it to the others, what stops them from just rebroadcasting that claiming they found it first?
1654 2011-04-26 17:35:09 <lfm> the addresses are right in the txns
1655 2011-04-26 17:35:16 <cuddlefish_> Because your address is in the header
1656 2011-04-26 17:35:39 <RenaKunisaki> so your solution is only valid for your address?
1657 2011-04-26 17:35:41 <cuddlefish_> RenaKunisaki: In the equation you're trying to solve, basically
1658 2011-04-26 17:35:44 <cuddlefish_> Yes.
1659 2011-04-26 17:35:47 <RenaKunisaki> ah
1660 2011-04-26 17:35:49 <lfm> RenaKunisaki: yes
1661 2011-04-26 17:35:56 <cuddlefish_> That's also how mining pools prevent cheating
1662 2011-04-26 17:36:04 <cuddlefish_> because they make you hash with *their* address
1663 2011-04-26 17:36:06 <kile> so if i solve a block i can manipulate the outputs of the transactions it includes because it just checks the inputs?
1664 2011-04-26 17:36:07 <lfm> cuddlefish_: right
1665 2011-04-26 17:37:56 <lfm> kile I dont think so
1666 2011-04-26 17:38:26 <ArtForz> no
1667 2011-04-26 17:38:36 <kile> lfm: ok thanks
1668 2011-04-26 17:38:43 <luke-jr> omg
1669 2011-04-26 17:38:44 <kile> good bye ill continue later have to go
1670 2011-04-26 17:38:45 <luke-jr> Apple uses dozenal⁇?
1671 2011-04-26 17:38:49 kile has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1672 2011-04-26 17:38:59 * luke-jr just realized
1673 2011-04-26 17:39:05 skyewm has joined
1674 2011-04-26 17:41:18 devrandom has quit (Excess Flood)
1675 2011-04-26 17:42:06 <cuddlefish_> [10:31] <rokr1> have generated 84000 blocks  [10:31] <rokr1> am i good ?> [10:31] <rokr1> I am new to bit coins
1676 2011-04-26 17:42:07 Xunie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1677 2011-04-26 17:42:10 devrandom has joined
1678 2011-04-26 17:42:17 <cuddlefish_> the UI sucks. Let's make it a bit more sensible
1679 2011-04-26 17:43:15 <xxxxxxx> seriously
1680 2011-04-26 17:44:28 <cuddlefish_> First *huge* thing
1681 2011-04-26 17:44:29 <lianj> RenaKunisaki: your valid solution, and the 50 btc you got is only usable by the public key its assigned to (which you generate and only you have the private key and are able to do somethink with the money). there is no address in the header.
1682 2011-04-26 17:44:38 <cuddlefish_> lock out the UI until you've downloaded the blocks
1683 2011-04-26 17:45:01 <cuddlefish_> Just put up a big modal dialog
1684 2011-04-26 17:45:32 <cuddlefish_> "Bitcoin is downloading the block chain (X blocks downloaded out of X blocks total). (Progress bar)"
1685 2011-04-26 17:46:10 zxx_ has joined
1686 2011-04-26 17:46:26 <cuddlefish_> maybe a link to the wiki
1687 2011-04-26 17:47:55 <Kiba> bye
1688 2011-04-26 17:48:24 <cuddlefish_> .... what?
1689 2011-04-26 17:48:38 <midnightmagic> incredible. well, looks like my first 5970 failure after only three months.
1690 2011-04-26 17:48:43 * midnightmagic is sad.
1691 2011-04-26 17:48:56 molecular has joined
1692 2011-04-26 17:49:02 <molecular> #join #silkroadmarket
1693 2011-04-26 17:49:19 <molecular> oops, sorry
1694 2011-04-26 17:50:43 <rly> midnightmagic: how hot was it running?
1695 2011-04-26 17:51:28 <midnightmagic> i set a target of 85C
1696 2011-04-26 17:51:56 <dust1> mine have been running 80-90 since november
1697 2011-04-26 17:52:25 ISA_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1698 2011-04-26 17:52:29 <midnightmagic> yeah, there's not really any reason for it to have died. i very mildly overclock them, but nothing strenuous. 750
1699 2011-04-26 17:52:52 <dust1> i just decided to overclock recently, had been running them stock
1700 2011-04-26 17:53:11 <dust1> i think its ok to oc the core if I make up for it by downclocking memory
1701 2011-04-26 17:53:21 Kiba has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1702 2011-04-26 17:53:29 <dust1> whats the warranty like?
1703 2011-04-26 17:53:32 <midnightmagic> at least they paid themselves off.. i guess that's a plus. still. total bummer.
1704 2011-04-26 17:53:38 <midnightmagic> manufacturer's warranty
1705 2011-04-26 17:54:06 <midnightmagic> still on. i'm the original purchaser.
1706 2011-04-26 17:56:31 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1713 2011-04-26 18:01:06 dust1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1716 2011-04-26 18:02:41 cuddlefish_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1724 2011-04-26 18:12:40 <lyspooner> my client seems to be stuck on block 120243.  is there a way to obtain the rest of the blocks without getting the entire blockchain again?
1725 2011-04-26 18:13:59 <luke-jr> ;;bc,blocks
1726 2011-04-26 18:13:59 <gribble> 120344
1727 2011-04-26 18:14:55 TD has joined
1728 2011-04-26 18:15:40 <lyspooner> 4 connections...
1729 2011-04-26 18:16:00 jroot has joined
1730 2011-04-26 18:16:06 sabalaba has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1731 2011-04-26 18:20:00 <lyspooner> ok then, can someone point me to a debugging link?
1732 2011-04-26 18:20:32 NickelBot has joined
1733 2011-04-26 18:21:54 <BlueMatt> lyspooner: use upnp or forward the port
1734 2011-04-26 18:21:58 <BlueMatt> also, irc working?
1735 2011-04-26 18:22:10 <BlueMatt> though that shouldnt matter
1736 2011-04-26 18:22:55 <luke-jr> 4 is enough
1737 2011-04-26 18:23:04 <BlueMatt> yea 1 should work
1738 2011-04-26 18:24:05 <phantomcircuit> 1 is actually faster for initial block download
1739 2011-04-26 18:24:11 <phantomcircuit> reduces db contention
1740 2011-04-26 18:24:15 <lyspooner> i restarted the client, now i'm waiting for connections
1741 2011-04-26 18:24:24 tenach has joined
1742 2011-04-26 18:24:24 tenach has quit (Changing host)
1743 2011-04-26 18:24:24 tenach has joined
1744 2011-04-26 18:24:49 <BlueMatt> try -addnode ing one of the fallback ones
1745 2011-04-26 18:24:59 <lyspooner> i don't know what upnp means.  if you want to help, send me a pm so i don't waste people's time here
1746 2011-04-26 18:25:09 <BlueMatt> -addnode=87.155.77.47 should get you my node connected
1747 2011-04-26 18:25:26 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry upnp is only in 0.3.21
1748 2011-04-26 18:25:38 <lyspooner> 0.3.19 here
1749 2011-04-26 18:26:13 <BlueMatt> ah
1750 2011-04-26 18:26:55 HarryS has joined
1751 2011-04-26 18:27:10 <luke-jr> lyspooner: so upgrade
1752 2011-04-26 18:27:12 <BlueMatt> you should upgrade
1753 2011-04-26 18:27:24 <BlueMatt> though 0.3.21 isnt technically out yet...
1754 2011-04-26 18:27:28 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: there's an RC
1755 2011-04-26 18:27:43 <BlueMatt> yea, its effectively out
1756 2011-04-26 18:28:45 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1757 2011-04-26 18:28:49 sabalaba has joined
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1759 2011-04-26 18:35:12 zxx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1760 2011-04-26 18:35:26 DuoSRX has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1761 2011-04-26 18:35:40 DuoSRX has joined
1762 2011-04-26 18:39:35 <lyspooner> ok upgraded, no connections for about 10 mins
1763 2011-04-26 18:40:39 <BlueMatt> ports forwarded?
1764 2011-04-26 18:40:42 <BlueMatt> irc connected?
1765 2011-04-26 18:42:45 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1766 2011-04-26 18:44:54 rly has joined
1767 2011-04-26 18:45:30 <rly> screen myminerscript does not work, but myminerscript does. What special thing does screen do?
1768 2011-04-26 18:47:46 jsemar has joined
1769 2011-04-26 18:49:32 DukeOfURL has joined
1770 2011-04-26 18:51:52 rly has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3)
1771 2011-04-26 18:55:26 peck has joined
1772 2011-04-26 19:02:20 <phantomcircuit> http://firesuite.com/chernobyl-exclusion-zone-2008-09.html
1773 2011-04-26 19:02:21 <phantomcircuit> lold
1774 2011-04-26 19:02:27 <phantomcircuit> OH GOD NUCLEAR IS SO DANGEROUS
1775 2011-04-26 19:02:40 <phantomcircuit> guys living directly next to the worst nuclear accident in history
1776 2011-04-26 19:03:33 <purplezky> shouldn't someone change the topic to Latest version 0.3.21 RC ?
1777 2011-04-26 19:03:47 <BlueMatt> purplezky: its a release candidate, not released
1778 2011-04-26 19:04:02 <purplezky> there are nightly builds every day ;)
1779 2011-04-26 19:05:31 amiller has joined
1780 2011-04-26 19:05:46 <purplezky> http://bitcoin.bluematt.me/bitcoin-nightly
1781 2011-04-26 19:05:56 <purplezky> it's even yours ;)
1782 2011-04-26 19:05:59 <BlueMatt> purplezky: I build those on my vm in my basement :)
1783 2011-04-26 19:07:53 alystair has joined
1784 2011-04-26 19:13:45 Jkessler has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1785 2011-04-26 19:16:08 vorlov has joined
1786 2011-04-26 19:16:13 vorlov has left ()
1787 2011-04-26 19:17:12 Jkessler has joined
1788 2011-04-26 19:18:00 <luke-jr> should my pool payout for all shares, or just the ones that contributed to the found block? ;)
1789 2011-04-26 19:20:45 <topi`> is this kind of memory usage normal for bitcoind?
1790 2011-04-26 19:20:46 <topi`>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
1791 2011-04-26 19:20:49 <topi`>  9963 topi      20   0  277m  89m 3052 S  4.3 38.3 392:10.87 bitcoind
1792 2011-04-26 19:20:58 <topi`> see, it's eating 38% of the memory on my server ;)
1793 2011-04-26 19:21:01 <midnightmagic> all shares, unless you believe, like slush et al, that switching out early is cheating, in which case, only recent shares count. :)
1794 2011-04-26 19:21:34 <ArtForzZz> topi`: yeah, pretty much
1795 2011-04-26 19:21:44 <topi`> I guess I need to upgrade my server :)
1796 2011-04-26 19:22:00 xlogik has quit (Quit: [BX] Hrm... I wonder if I paid this month's electr...EOF From client)
1797 2011-04-26 19:22:02 <ArtForzZz> most of the virt is iirc because it's mmapping db files
1798 2011-04-26 19:22:59 <topi`> oh, right
1799 2011-04-26 19:24:33 <phantomcircuit> topi`, the resident memory usage is almost entirely block/tx cache
1800 2011-04-26 19:24:44 <phantomcircuit> which can be swapped out without much performance loss
1801 2011-04-26 19:25:33 <topi`> I guess I need more swap then ;)
1802 2011-04-26 19:25:53 <topi`> but bitcoind seems to be consuming some cpu, 2-4% regularly
1803 2011-04-26 19:26:01 <topi`> and the debug.log only shows some joins/leaves on IRC
1804 2011-04-26 19:26:22 <topi`> now it received some 'inv'
1805 2011-04-26 19:26:55 <topi`> and 'addr' as well, very often
1806 2011-04-26 19:27:33 <BlueMatt> that should be tx verification of txes as they pass
1807 2011-04-26 19:27:42 phantomcircuit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1808 2011-04-26 19:28:03 m00p has joined
1809 2011-04-26 19:28:14 <BlueMatt> and your name is actually topi?
1810 2011-04-26 19:28:38 phantomcircuit has joined
1811 2011-04-26 19:28:39 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: they never said that switching out early is cheating, only that if you were going to cheat, that is how you would do it
1812 2011-04-26 19:28:46 <lfm> topi how many connections is there?
1813 2011-04-26 19:29:28 <midnightmagic> pedantics :-P
1814 2011-04-26 19:29:36 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: only somewhat
1815 2011-04-26 19:29:42 Vladimir has joined
1816 2011-04-26 19:29:44 <BlueMatt> there is actually quite a difference
1817 2011-04-26 19:30:05 <topi`> lfm: no idea, since I can't connect to port 8332 ;)
1818 2011-04-26 19:30:19 <topi`> BlueMatt: what's wrong with the name?
1819 2011-04-26 19:30:19 <midnightmagic> unless i am reducing the number of words required to convey an idea deliberately, assuming people would make the effort to understand (if they wanted to)..
1820 2011-04-26 19:30:27 <BlueMatt> topi`: you cant connect to localhost?
1821 2011-04-26 19:30:33 <BlueMatt> topi`: nothing, jut thought it was a nick
1822 2011-04-26 19:30:37 <topi`> BlueMatt: yes I can, but it seems that the auth fails
1823 2011-04-26 19:30:55 amiller has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1824 2011-04-26 19:31:10 <lfm> topi`: do oyu have gui? it shows connects in bottom border
1825 2011-04-26 19:31:13 <BlueMatt> odd
1826 2011-04-26 19:31:19 <BlueMatt> lfm: its bitcoind
1827 2011-04-26 19:31:27 <topi`> lfm: i'm running bitcoind on my server, in a server room ;)
1828 2011-04-26 19:31:42 <BlueMatt> you have a room full or servers?
1829 2011-04-26 19:31:44 <topi`> could of course compile with wx and run with DISPLAY=myip:0 but well...
1830 2011-04-26 19:31:51 <BlueMatt> Im assuming you arent at work
1831 2011-04-26 19:31:53 <topi`> no, it's a commercial server room.
1832 2011-04-26 19:31:56 <BlueMatt> home*
1833 2011-04-26 19:32:03 <topi`> that I have to pay for to keep my box there
1834 2011-04-26 19:32:14 <BlueMatt> why are you keeping a bitcoin node there?
1835 2011-04-26 19:32:16 <gjs278> I host at home
1836 2011-04-26 19:32:25 <BlueMatt> Yea my stuff is in my basement
1837 2011-04-26 19:32:25 <topi`> BlueMatt: why not? :)
1838 2011-04-26 19:32:32 <gjs278> comcast hasn't noticed yet
1839 2011-04-26 19:32:36 <lfm> topi`: ok it should do command line getinfo at least
1840 2011-04-26 19:32:39 <topi`> I consider my server a more stable computing environment than my macbook
1841 2011-04-26 19:32:43 <BlueMatt> topi`: Im assuming you host something more than just bitcoin there
1842 2011-04-26 19:32:43 <gjs278> been like 5+ years now of an open port 80
1843 2011-04-26 19:32:44 toni has joined
1844 2011-04-26 19:32:57 <topi`> BlueMatt: yes, a couple of websites
1845 2011-04-26 19:33:05 <BlueMatt> ok, well then whatever
1846 2011-04-26 19:33:16 <lulzplzkthx> ;;bc,mtgox
1847 2011-04-26 19:33:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":1.7469,"low":1.5211,"vol":21083,"buy":1.7313,"sell":1.7459,"last":1.746}}
1848 2011-04-26 19:33:29 <BlueMatt> gjs278: they dont really care unless you start driving a big website off of your home connection
1849 2011-04-26 19:33:37 <gjs278> I've been at 70k alexa before
1850 2011-04-26 19:33:42 <gjs278> but that's still that much traffic
1851 2011-04-26 19:33:48 <gjs278> not*
1852 2011-04-26 19:33:50 <BlueMatt> on your home cable line?
1853 2011-04-26 19:33:52 <gjs278> yes
1854 2011-04-26 19:33:57 <BlueMatt> wtf?
1855 2011-04-26 19:34:06 <BlueMatt> what kind of ul do you have?
1856 2011-04-26 19:34:07 <gjs278> 10mbps upload held it through
1857 2011-04-26 19:34:19 RazielZ has quit ()
1858 2011-04-26 19:34:21 <BlueMatt> ah what kind of plan do you have?
1859 2011-04-26 19:34:26 <gjs278> 50/10
1860 2011-04-26 19:34:31 <BlueMatt> nice
1861 2011-04-26 19:34:35 <topi`> BlueMatt: my server is on >100Mbps bandwidth but only 100M ethernet, that's the limit
1862 2011-04-26 19:34:57 <BlueMatt> you lucky bastards
1863 2011-04-26 19:34:57 <phantomcircuit> huh
1864 2011-04-26 19:35:01 <gjs278> for a really long time I was doing it on 20/2
1865 2011-04-26 19:35:11 * BlueMatt has to deal with 10mbps down 1 mbps up
1866 2011-04-26 19:35:13 <gjs278> had to offhost all of the images and stuff
1867 2011-04-26 19:35:14 <topi`> BlueMatt: I pay 40eur per month..
1868 2011-04-26 19:35:18 toni has left ()
1869 2011-04-26 19:35:23 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, that's capped at 250GB/month though right?
1870 2011-04-26 19:35:27 <gjs278> lol yes
1871 2011-04-26 19:35:30 <gjs278> I can blow through it
1872 2011-04-26 19:35:32 <gjs278> in like 1 day
1873 2011-04-26 19:35:39 <topi`> got slashdotted?
1874 2011-04-26 19:35:41 <BlueMatt> damn comcast
1875 2011-04-26 19:36:07 <gjs278> comcast's 100/10 plan also has a 250 cap
1876 2011-04-26 19:36:19 <BlueMatt> thats so ridiculous
1877 2011-04-26 19:36:50 <BlueMatt> Id rather go with a 10mbps down dsl line
1878 2011-04-26 19:37:35 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, they all have a 250GB cap
1879 2011-04-26 19:37:41 <gjs278> yep
1880 2011-04-26 19:37:43 <lulzplzkthx> Lol at&t...
1881 2011-04-26 19:37:48 <gjs278> except for business class
1882 2011-04-26 19:37:49 <BlueMatt> does business plan have that?
1883 2011-04-26 19:37:56 <lulzplzkthx> I have a 1.5mbps conn with at&t with a 150GB cap
1884 2011-04-26 19:37:57 <lulzplzkthx> fml
1885 2011-04-26 19:38:01 <gjs278> business class is like $350 for 100/10 unlimited
1886 2011-04-26 19:38:01 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol ATT is retarded they refuse to upgrade my dsl line because they claim there is no service here
1887 2011-04-26 19:38:03 <BlueMatt> can you get business to a residential address
1888 2011-04-26 19:38:07 <gjs278> yes
1889 2011-04-26 19:38:22 <gjs278> it's like... $180 for 50/10 I think
1890 2011-04-26 19:38:26 <gjs278> something around that
1891 2011-04-26 19:38:31 <phantomcircuit> lulzplzkthx, att doesnt actually run caps
1892 2011-04-26 19:38:31 <gjs278> for business 50/10
1893 2011-04-26 19:38:32 <phantomcircuit> lol
1894 2011-04-26 19:38:43 <lulzplzkthx> phantomcircuit: well, they are going to very soon.
1895 2011-04-26 19:38:43 <gjs278> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2381893,00.asp
1896 2011-04-26 19:38:47 <lulzplzkthx> and you can visit the metering website
1897 2011-04-26 19:38:48 <BlueMatt> I used to live in nc, highest plan at the time was 6mbps down cable and you couldnt get business to residential address because the infrastructure sucked so bad
1898 2011-04-26 19:38:54 <sgornick> Sheesh, ... when using Liberty Reserve it load static content from Amazon AWS and js from Google Analytics.  http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.finance.gold-silver-crypto/22812
1899 2011-04-26 19:38:55 <phantomcircuit> lulzplzkthx, they're incompetent as fuck
1900 2011-04-26 19:39:04 <lulzplzkthx> phantomcircuit: true. that's why i get 130 KB/s on a 1.5mbps
1901 2011-04-26 19:39:11 <lulzplzkthx> and used to get 180 KB/s on a 768kbps
1902 2011-04-26 19:39:14 <lulzplzkthx> backwards? i think so.
1903 2011-04-26 19:39:24 <lulzplzkthx> and upgraded us w/o even asking (including an upgrade in cost.)
1904 2011-04-26 19:39:43 <topi`> ah, I found out why can't do the connection for the JSON ... I had "rpcpasswd" in the bitcoin.conf where it should be "rpcpassword"
1905 2011-04-26 19:39:46 <topi`> damn.
1906 2011-04-26 19:39:48 <gjs278> Users who exceed 150GB will be charged $10 for ever additional 50GB they consume. The company said that less than 2 percent of its customers will be affected; the average DSL customer user about 18GB per month.
1907 2011-04-26 19:40:04 <lulzplzkthx> Yup.
1908 2011-04-26 19:40:07 <lulzplzkthx> We use around 96 GB/month
1909 2011-04-26 19:40:26 <lulzplzkthx> 2% is a lot though.
1910 2011-04-26 19:40:26 <gjs278> I hit 247gb last month because of a retarded video project I had to do for work
1911 2011-04-26 19:40:40 <BlueMatt> last month traffic for me == 118 GB
1912 2011-04-26 19:40:58 rly has joined
1913 2011-04-26 19:41:02 <lulzplzkthx> My brother 24/7 streams netflix, I torrent, and my sister streams hulu. My mom does taxes/bills.
1914 2011-04-26 19:41:04 <BlueMatt> average just over 100gb/month
1915 2011-04-26 19:41:09 <lulzplzkthx> The netflix, torrenting and hulu bogs us down.
1916 2011-04-26 19:41:09 <ArtForzZz> I use about 300-400G/mo
1917 2011-04-26 19:41:15 <rly> Is there anyone who starts a miner at boot?
1918 2011-04-26 19:41:15 <topi`> exiting bitcoind seems to take a lot of CPU time and takes >30 secs
1919 2011-04-26 19:41:17 <ArtForzZz> freenet
1920 2011-04-26 19:41:17 <lulzplzkthx> Luckily, our 130 KB/s kind of prevents of us from going over.
1921 2011-04-26 19:41:42 <topi`> it says "bitcoin exiting" but the task is *still* there
1922 2011-04-26 19:41:49 <gjs278> I've gotten to the point where I actively have to stop doing things in order to stay under 250
1923 2011-04-26 19:42:00 <rly> If so, how do you tell Linux to simply work? I am starting to hate Linux. It seems nobody know how to do so.
1924 2011-04-26 19:42:01 <topi`> ok, now it disappeared. nothing on debug.log though, I wonder what it thinks
1925 2011-04-26 19:42:06 <gjs278> like I keep all of my nzbs until the end of the montht to make sure I don't go over
1926 2011-04-26 19:42:12 <ArtForzZz> and yea, thats mostly upload
1927 2011-04-26 19:42:31 <lulzplzkthx> I guess technically I could get 321 GB per month download.
1928 2011-04-26 19:42:42 <ArtForzZz> only?
1929 2011-04-26 19:42:49 <phantomcircuit> rly, you want to start the miner on boot? what distro
1930 2011-04-26 19:42:49 <lulzplzkthx> ((130 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 30) / 1024) / 1024
1931 2011-04-26 19:42:56 <rly> phantomcircuit: fedora
1932 2011-04-26 19:43:07 <lulzplzkthx> phantomcircuit: heh. i was trying to find one for arch, but couldn't find a rc.d for it
1933 2011-04-26 19:43:19 <ArtForzZz> down... somewhere around 2.5TB
1934 2011-04-26 19:43:22 <lulzplzkthx> i mean, i could do a startup script but...
1935 2011-04-26 19:43:25 <phantomcircuit> rly, uh what's in /etc/init.d
1936 2011-04-26 19:43:28 <lyspooner> i used to use #bitcoin-monitor.  where is that info now?
1937 2011-04-26 19:43:29 <rly> phantomcircuit: I did manage to get my temperature monitoring script running in the background.
1938 2011-04-26 19:43:33 <ArtForzZz> never managed to get close to that
1939 2011-04-26 19:43:45 <lulzplzkthx> lyspooner: www.bitcoinmonitor.com ?
1940 2011-04-26 19:43:48 <topi`> ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool() : ConnectInputs failed caca08421e
1941 2011-04-26 19:43:49 <lulzplzkthx> idk if there's a channel for it
1942 2011-04-26 19:43:52 <topi`> is this a known error?
1943 2011-04-26 19:43:56 <rly> phantomcircuit: how is that related?
1944 2011-04-26 19:44:02 <topi`> doesn't seem to affect the client functionality.
1945 2011-04-26 19:44:07 <rly> phantomcircuit: if you know the answer, just say it.
1946 2011-04-26 19:44:27 <phantomcircuit> rly, the answer depends on what is in that folder
1947 2011-04-26 19:44:36 <phantomcircuit> see nobody is willing to help you because you're being a dick
1948 2011-04-26 19:45:05 <rly> phantomcircuit: there are about 70 entries there.
1949 2011-04-26 19:45:22 <rly> phantomcircuit: there really is no point in listing them.
1950 2011-04-26 19:45:29 <ArtForzZz> topi`: thats just means you saw a orphan tx
1951 2011-04-26 19:45:35 <ArtForzZz> happens all the time
1952 2011-04-26 19:45:38 <gjs278> you can start a miner on boot by using monit, which will also keep it running if it crashes
1953 2011-04-26 19:45:39 <lulzplzkthx> rly:ls /etc/init.d | wgetpaste
1954 2011-04-26 19:45:40 <phantomcircuit> rly, do an ls -l, are they symlinks?
1955 2011-04-26 19:45:57 <topi`> ArtForzZz: but then, it should not be qualified as "ERROR".. :)
1956 2011-04-26 19:46:07 <ArtForzZz> yes
1957 2011-04-26 19:46:07 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, that's a better solution
1958 2011-04-26 19:46:21 <ArtForzZz> should be a INFO or something
1959 2011-04-26 19:46:27 <gjs278> that's how I handle starting stuff with no init.d or rc.d entry
1960 2011-04-26 19:46:41 <rly> phantomcircuit: http://fpaste.org/1zOJ/
1961 2011-04-26 19:46:54 <phantomcircuit> rly, change of plans, install monit
1962 2011-04-26 19:47:03 <gjs278> what miner is he using
1963 2011-04-26 19:47:32 <rly> The problem is some interaction with ati stuff.
1964 2011-04-26 19:47:37 <gjs278> ohh
1965 2011-04-26 19:47:43 <gjs278> you're trying to poclbm on startup?
1966 2011-04-26 19:47:51 <rly> I just hate it when a system doesn't do the same thing when run at a different time.
1967 2011-04-26 19:47:59 <rly> I never write my systems like that.
1968 2011-04-26 19:48:06 <phantomcircuit> oh
1969 2011-04-26 19:48:18 <rly> How should monit be used?
1970 2011-04-26 19:48:24 <gjs278> poclbm on startup fails because you need X running at the time
1971 2011-04-26 19:48:28 <phantomcircuit> he needs to have x running before the gpu miner starts
1972 2011-04-26 19:48:43 <gjs278> well, what I do is I have it in my .xinitrc
1973 2011-04-26 19:48:47 <gjs278> and I open an xterm that starts poclbm
1974 2011-04-26 19:48:51 <rly> Yes, X needs to run, but I don't know what else.
1975 2011-04-26 19:49:08 <rly> On this machine gdm starts automatically.
1976 2011-04-26 19:49:19 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1977 2011-04-26 19:49:25 cuddlefish_ has joined
1978 2011-04-26 19:49:39 <gjs278> not sure how it will interact with .xinitrc with gdm
1979 2011-04-26 19:49:44 <rly> So, I added a call to 'startmyminerscript' in the Init/Default file, but that just seems to do nothing at all.
1980 2011-04-26 19:49:46 <phantomcircuit> rly, yeah your problem is that your starting poclbm before gdm
1981 2011-04-26 19:50:06 <rly> Is Init/Default before gdm is completely started?
1982 2011-04-26 19:50:06 <phantomcircuit> i assume it isn't setup to autologin a user
1983 2011-04-26 19:50:08 <ArtForzZz> I dont quite get what youR'e trying to do?
1984 2011-04-26 19:50:21 <gjs278> xterm -e "poclbm run command"
1985 2011-04-26 19:50:25 <ArtForzZz> why are you using gdm ona  dedicated mininbg box?
1986 2011-04-26 19:50:30 <rly> I just want it to run in the background at boot without having a real user logging in.
1987 2011-04-26 19:50:40 <rly> ArtForzZz: it is not a dedicated mining box.
1988 2011-04-26 19:50:43 <phantomcircuit> rly, what you need to do is add an init script with a higher start number than gdm
1989 2011-04-26 19:50:47 tenach has quit (Quit: leaving)
1990 2011-04-26 19:51:15 <gjs278> rly try adding the line I just pasted to your .xinitrc if you can't figure out how to get an init working higher than gdm
1991 2011-04-26 19:51:17 <ArtForzZz> and... how do you restart it when users log in/out ?
1992 2011-04-26 19:51:20 <gjs278> it may spawn it
1993 2011-04-26 19:51:30 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, he needs it to work without a user logged in
1994 2011-04-26 19:51:31 <gjs278> if you run it in an xterm it will die on logout
1995 2011-04-26 19:51:38 <gjs278> hmm
1996 2011-04-26 19:51:39 <ArtForzZz> gui user logs out, gdm respawns X ...
1997 2011-04-26 19:51:44 <gjs278> will .xinitrc not proc until they log in?
1998 2011-04-26 19:51:54 <rly> gjs278: .xinitrc is when a user has already logged in.
1999 2011-04-26 19:52:08 <rly> gjs278: the point is that even if no user has logged in, it still works.
2000 2011-04-26 19:52:39 <cuddlefish_> !seen tcatm
2001 2011-04-26 19:52:40 <gjs278> I start fluxbox automatically and do it that way but I use startx
2002 2011-04-26 19:52:45 <phantomcircuit> rly, as ArtForzZz has said, when you login the X server is killed and restarted as that user, so you'd need to setup stuff for each user
2003 2011-04-26 19:53:15 <rly> phantomcircuit: if that is the case, then Linux seems to be pretty badly designed.
2004 2011-04-26 19:53:17 <BlueMatt> I like how ArtForzZz talks in his sleep ;)
2005 2011-04-26 19:53:22 <ArtForzZz> magic!
2006 2011-04-26 19:53:43 <gjs278> lol
2007 2011-04-26 19:53:51 <gjs278> it's more like the miner's way of running is
2008 2011-04-26 19:53:52 <phantomcircuit> ArtForzZz, is it possible to run a gpu miner on windows as a service?
2009 2011-04-26 19:53:56 <gjs278> because it requires X just to opencl
2010 2011-04-26 19:53:56 <phantomcircuit> i kind of doubt it
2011 2011-04-26 19:54:00 <ArtForzZz> phantomcircuit: nope
2012 2011-04-26 19:54:03 <ArtForzZz> at least not ATI
2013 2011-04-26 19:54:06 <rly> X is running, the command needs X, why is Linux still whining? At least that seems very basic logic.
2014 2011-04-26 19:54:12 <ArtForzZz> nvidia should in theory work
2015 2011-04-26 19:54:20 <phantomcircuit> rly, you've got the order wrong
2016 2011-04-26 19:54:24 <gjs278> how could X be running if you start the command before gdm
2017 2011-04-26 19:54:34 <gjs278> unless you have it after gdm
2018 2011-04-26 19:54:36 <phantomcircuit> rly, you're almost certainly starting X after the miner
2019 2011-04-26 19:55:02 <ArtForzZz> I doubt what you're trying to do is possible cleanly on any stock distro
2020 2011-04-26 19:55:11 <rly> Do I need PostSession then?
2021 2011-04-26 19:55:23 <rly> Their documentation is also not really clear on this point.
2022 2011-04-26 19:55:32 <phantomcircuit> rly, ls -lR /etc/init.d /etc/rc.* | wgetpaste
2023 2011-04-26 19:55:33 <rly> (/etc/gdm/PostSession)
2024 2011-04-26 19:55:53 <gjs278> isn't PostSession after they logged in
2025 2011-04-26 19:57:00 <ArtForzZz> postsession is iirc run when? aftaer? they log out
2026 2011-04-26 19:57:11 <gjs278> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=507414
2027 2011-04-26 19:57:34 <gjs278> try .bashrc
2028 2011-04-26 19:57:40 <gjs278> or
2029 2011-04-26 19:57:42 <gjs278> For Gdm, from the menu go to System -->> Preferences --> Session
2030 2011-04-26 19:57:43 <gjs278> and add the path to your script. (don't forget to secure the permissions and make executable!)
2031 2011-04-26 19:58:07 <ArtForzZz> bashrc only works for shells
2032 2011-04-26 19:58:14 <rly> phantomcircuit: http://fpaste.org/E4Sa/
2033 2011-04-26 19:58:39 <gjs278> yeah those wont work
2034 2011-04-26 19:58:44 <gjs278> that thread was dumb didnt read far enough
2035 2011-04-26 19:59:05 <rly> ArtForzZz: I would suppose so (the after stuff)
2036 2011-04-26 19:59:44 <phantomcircuit> oh god
2037 2011-04-26 19:59:49 <phantomcircuit> system v style init
2038 2011-04-26 20:00:06 <rly> phantomcircuit: it supports upstart, AFAIK.
2039 2011-04-26 20:00:31 <rly> How does BSD do this?
2040 2011-04-26 20:00:39 <rly> (any)
2041 2011-04-26 20:00:55 <rly> I like to think they would fix such idiocies.
2042 2011-04-26 20:01:11 dust1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2043 2011-04-26 20:01:22 <ArtForzZz> hrrrm
2044 2011-04-26 20:02:27 <gjs278> find the binary for gdm, rename it, write a script to take the old gdm place, call the binary for gdm and the script you want to run to start mining
2045 2011-04-26 20:02:38 <ArtForzZz> what about gdms displayinitdir?
2046 2011-04-26 20:03:02 <ArtForzZz> stuff in there *should* be run after every time it restarts X
2047 2011-04-26 20:03:34 <rly> gjs278: but that breaks on an upgrade.
2048 2011-04-26 20:04:19 <gjs278> I don't even know if that would work
2049 2011-04-26 20:04:34 <phantomcircuit> rly, you need to start the miner in Init, stop the miner in PreSession,then the user has to start the miner, then you need to start the miner in PostSession, when the user logs off
2050 2011-04-26 20:04:46 <ArtForzZz> phantomcircuit: soudns about right
2051 2011-04-26 20:05:31 <rly> phantomcircuit: I don't want the user starting it.
2052 2011-04-26 20:05:40 <rly> phantomcircuit: it should just always be running.
2053 2011-04-26 20:05:48 <ArtForzZz> *headdesk*
2054 2011-04-26 20:06:14 <ArtForzZz> how do you want to "keep it running" when. gdm. kills. and. restarts. X.
2055 2011-04-26 20:06:35 <rly> ArtForzZz: the basic problem is that Init does not start it.
2056 2011-04-26 20:06:47 <rly> ArtForzZz: all the other stuff are refinements of that.
2057 2011-04-26 20:06:47 <phantomcircuit> rly, no that's really not the basic problem
2058 2011-04-26 20:06:47 <ArtForzZz> huh. it should.
2059 2011-04-26 20:06:59 <ArtForzZz> well ,at least while the greeter is active
2060 2011-04-26 20:07:01 <phantomcircuit> rly, add a sleep to the init script
2061 2011-04-26 20:07:35 <phantomcircuit> he's hitting a race condition
2062 2011-04-26 20:07:50 <phantomcircuit> Init is called immediately after forking, not necessarily when the X server is ready for clients
2063 2011-04-26 20:07:53 <rly> I am hitting a lack of understanding of chaos.
2064 2011-04-26 20:08:27 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2065 2011-04-26 20:08:28 <ArtForzZz> phantomcircuit: yup
2066 2011-04-26 20:08:32 <phantomcircuit> it's hardly chaos
2067 2011-04-26 20:08:53 <phantomcircuit> given that im able to figure out what your problem is without what one would call a reasonable description
2068 2011-04-26 20:08:54 <rly> phantomcircuit: no structure has emerged yet.
2069 2011-04-26 20:09:05 <phantomcircuit> rly, look closer?
2070 2011-04-26 20:09:12 <ArtForzZz> rly: you'Re not looking hard enough
2071 2011-04-26 20:09:16 <rly> phantomcircuit: you have just determined a problem.
2072 2011-04-26 20:09:33 <phantomcircuit> rly, i actually gave you the solution before i described the problem
2073 2011-04-26 20:09:40 <rly> Sure, I could sleep.
2074 2011-04-26 20:09:49 <rly> But on what should I wait?
2075 2011-04-26 20:10:04 eternal11 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2076 2011-04-26 20:10:05 <phantomcircuit> are you for real
2077 2011-04-26 20:10:05 <rly> How to test for X readyness?
2078 2011-04-26 20:10:15 jroot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2079 2011-04-26 20:10:42 Jkessler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2080 2011-04-26 20:10:52 <phantomcircuit> rly, well you could oh i dont know, just wait 5 seconds?
2081 2011-04-26 20:11:03 <rly> phantomcircuit: there is no guarantee that will work.
2082 2011-04-26 20:11:15 <phantomcircuit> alternatively you could write a small x client that attempts to draw a window
2083 2011-04-26 20:11:19 <rly> phantomcircuit: it is just very likely.
2084 2011-04-26 20:11:27 <rly> phantomcircuit: yes, I thought of that.
2085 2011-04-26 20:11:28 jroot has joined
2086 2011-04-26 20:11:50 <phantomcircuit> rly, gdm is poorly designed in this regard
2087 2011-04-26 20:11:52 <rly> I think the system is _broken_ if one has to do that.
2088 2011-04-26 20:11:53 <BlueMatt> open xclock or something
2089 2011-04-26 20:11:57 <phantomcircuit> which btw is an edge case i doubt anybody uses
2090 2011-04-26 20:12:09 <lyspooner> someone point me to the answer to why did we choose exactly 6 blocks per hour?
2091 2011-04-26 20:12:23 <ArtForzZz> it's just gdm that is broken, and what you're trying to do is very... unusual
2092 2011-04-26 20:13:08 <rly> I prefer my computing systems to be able to just do what I tell them and not find excuses behind layers or crappiness.
2093 2011-04-26 20:13:13 <rly> Thanks for your help.
2094 2011-04-26 20:13:19 <phantomcircuit> # Stolen from the debian kdm setup, aren't I sneaky
2095 2011-04-26 20:13:19 <phantomcircuit> # Plus a lot of fun stuff added
2096 2011-04-26 20:13:20 <phantomcircuit> lol
2097 2011-04-26 20:13:29 <ArtForzZz> yea
2098 2011-04-26 20:13:41 <rly> of*
2099 2011-04-26 20:14:13 <ArtForzZz> actually layers or crappyness also works ;)
2100 2011-04-26 20:14:33 <rly> Another advanced question: why does screen startmyminer and startmyminer not do the same thing?
2101 2011-04-26 20:14:40 <phantomcircuit> i prefer people im trying to help to not be snarky buttholes
2102 2011-04-26 20:14:42 <phantomcircuit> :(
2103 2011-04-26 20:14:56 <ArtForzZz> rly: it doesn't here
2104 2011-04-26 20:15:02 <rly> phantomcircuit: er I thanked you, didn't I?
2105 2011-04-26 20:15:24 <phantomcircuit> fair enough
2106 2011-04-26 20:15:36 <ArtForzZz> screen normally takes the parents env
2107 2011-04-26 20:15:38 <phantomcircuit> rly, ps in the future you'll get much better help by providing as much information as possible
2108 2011-04-26 20:15:44 <ArtForzZz> maybe yours does something weird i nthat regard
2109 2011-04-26 20:16:14 <rly> screen myminer tells me I have one platform, myminer says I have two.
2110 2011-04-26 20:16:39 <rly> That is just another example of something I would believe to be equivalent in functionality, yet isn't.
2111 2011-04-26 20:16:51 <ArtForzZz> it should be equivalent
2112 2011-04-26 20:17:01 <rly> Ok, perhaps I should report a bug then.
2113 2011-04-26 20:17:19 <ArtForzZz> my only guess is somehow screen unsets your env vars (DISPLAY and XAUTHORITY are good candidates)
2114 2011-04-26 20:17:19 <rly> ArtForzZz: which OS do you use? Debian?
2115 2011-04-26 20:17:22 <ArtForzZz> yep
2116 2011-04-26 20:17:24 <ArtForzZz> debian sid
2117 2011-04-26 20:17:37 cuddlefish_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2118 2011-04-26 20:18:13 <ArtForzZz> sid is surprisingly pain-free for being bleeding edge
2119 2011-04-26 20:18:42 KBme has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2120 2011-04-26 20:18:48 <ArtForzZz> well, except when maintainers decide to completely break everything while reorganizing stuff
2121 2011-04-26 20:18:55 <rly> I like everything about Debian, except the package system (I think it is too slow).
2122 2011-04-26 20:19:00 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2123 2011-04-26 20:19:03 <ArtForzZz> *points towards ia32-libs debacle*
2124 2011-04-26 20:19:55 <rly> I suppose I could write a script figuring out the difference between the two environments.
2125 2011-04-26 20:20:10 <rly> What is even the point of unsetting DISPLAY?
2126 2011-04-26 20:20:27 <ArtForzZz> no clue, it shouldn't really do it
2127 2011-04-26 20:20:29 <rly> screen only does stuff with terminals, right?
2128 2011-04-26 20:20:32 <ArtForzZz> yea
2129 2011-04-26 20:20:34 <ArtForzZz> I'd just dump env from within my startminer script and see what's different
2130 2011-04-26 20:22:12 LtBrenton has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2131 2011-04-26 20:23:32 MartianW has joined
2132 2011-04-26 20:23:33 MartianW has quit (Changing host)
2133 2011-04-26 20:23:33 MartianW has joined
2134 2011-04-26 20:24:00 Construct has left ()
2135 2011-04-26 20:24:35 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2136 2011-04-26 20:24:56 m00p has joined
2137 2011-04-26 20:26:30 Elrond has joined
2138 2011-04-26 20:27:19 <Elrond> Can someone give me a pointer on why we have 6 blocks/hour with 50 btc each,  instead of say 10 blocks/hour with 30 each?
2139 2011-04-26 20:28:01 <gjs278> that would make the blockchain bigger
2140 2011-04-26 20:28:19 <ArtForzZz> not by much
2141 2011-04-26 20:28:48 <ArtForzZz> the main thing is, lower time/block would increase chain forks
2142 2011-04-26 20:30:16 KBme has joined
2143 2011-04-26 20:30:50 <Elrond> Hmm.
2144 2011-04-26 20:31:44 <ArtForzZz> I have no clue what the exact math to come up with 10 min/block was, but significantly below that causes a noticable number of chain forks, as seen after first /. ing where the network grew fast enough that we had like 2-3 min/block for a while
2145 2011-04-26 20:32:00 amiller has joined
2146 2011-04-26 20:32:08 <lyspooner> does anyone have the math perhaps?
2147 2011-04-26 20:32:20 <ArtForzZz> probably satoshi
2148 2011-04-26 20:32:25 <lyspooner> hrumph
2149 2011-04-26 20:32:26 <BlueMatt> lyspooner: no one but satoshi
2150 2011-04-26 20:32:36 <amiller> what was the question?
2151 2011-04-26 20:32:54 <ArtForzZz> no clue, but the answer is 42.
2152 2011-04-26 20:33:01 <lyspooner> after playing around with it for a year, would you lean towards faster or slower rate
2153 2011-04-26 20:33:02 <BlueMatt> lyspooner: 42/4.2
2154 2011-04-26 20:33:19 dust1 has joined
2155 2011-04-26 20:33:33 <lyspooner> (higher/lower freq)
2156 2011-04-26 20:33:56 <lyspooner> if you were to redesign it
2157 2011-04-26 20:34:26 <Elrond> The math should be public, so we can review it.
2158 2011-04-26 20:34:49 <gasteve> math isn't public?
2159 2011-04-26 20:35:05 <ArtForzZz> no one knows how satoshi came up with 10 min/block
2160 2011-04-26 20:35:06 <BlueMatt> lyspooner: best math Ive seen was posted by TD he said it takes ~1 minute for bgp to propagate, hence about 10% of blocks would be lost if bitcoin becomes the size of bgp
2161 2011-04-26 20:35:19 <amiller> ah i understand the question now
2162 2011-04-26 20:35:21 <lyspooner> ok thanks
2163 2011-04-26 20:35:25 <amiller> why 10 minutes per block
2164 2011-04-26 20:35:29 <lyspooner> i'm satisfied
2165 2011-04-26 20:35:36 <ArtForzZz> yeah, I suspect somethign liek that is the base for the 10 min figure
2166 2011-04-26 20:36:00 <amiller> how would the community go about changing a hardcoded value like that
2167 2011-04-26 20:36:10 <ArtForzZz> generally, they wouldn't
2168 2011-04-26 20:36:15 <amiller> is that something that would just make its way into the 'official' client
2169 2011-04-26 20:36:20 <amiller> well in a special case
2170 2011-04-26 20:36:29 <ArtForzZz> changing basic rules like that, you might as well start yetanothercoin
2171 2011-04-26 20:36:46 <amiller> so that's a fundamental enough rule that changing it would require starting over?
2172 2011-04-26 20:36:53 <BlueMatt> amiller: we dont have to change it to want to understand why
2173 2011-04-26 20:37:12 <amiller> is it clear what rules are like that and which ones are easier to change
2174 2011-04-26 20:37:28 <gasteve> 10 min is long enough that it doesn't give those with fast connections an advantage and yet not unbearably long
2175 2011-04-26 20:37:36 <ArtForzZz> only rules that are easy to change are those that don't concern what is and isnt a valid block
2176 2011-04-26 20:37:49 <topi`> "starting over" an entire currency system is not a very easy task. and it will decrease the trust in the system already created, and even the future ones following it.
2177 2011-04-26 20:37:57 <amiller> that makes sense ArtForzZz
2178 2011-04-26 20:38:07 <ArtForzZz> = stuff like isStandard() that only concerns "block-less" transactions
2179 2011-04-26 20:38:10 <topi`> and the current bitcoin network is still in the "starting" phase...
2180 2011-04-26 20:38:23 <ArtForzZz> you can also change the p2p protocol and add new messages rather easily
2181 2011-04-26 20:38:54 <ArtForzZz> only thing thats pretty much set in stone is the block and transaction format and the rules for verifying block and transaction-in-block validity
2182 2011-04-26 20:38:55 <rly> It was LD_LIBRARY_PATH....
2183 2011-04-26 20:39:01 <ArtForzZz> rly: rly?
2184 2011-04-26 20:39:10 eternal1 has joined
2185 2011-04-26 20:39:16 <rly> ArtForzZz: yes, apparently it gets unset by screen.
2186 2011-04-26 20:39:25 <ArtForzZz> huh. didn't know that
2187 2011-04-26 20:39:26 <rly> ArtForzZz: I did set part of it in my script.
2188 2011-04-26 20:39:53 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2189 2011-04-26 20:39:54 <rly> I am glad people are not screaming how disrespectful I am ;)
2190 2011-04-26 20:40:00 <topi`> my little bro bought a 6870 @ 900mhz ... I guess it's a decent card for mining, but he says he only gets 210 Mhash/sec with poclbm
2191 2011-04-26 20:40:09 <DukeOfURL> ArtForzZz: if I decide to become a miner, what kit do i need to purchase?
2192 2011-04-26 20:40:23 <ArtForzZz> DukeOfURL: check the forums and wiki
2193 2011-04-26 20:40:37 <DukeOfURL> k
2194 2011-04-26 20:40:38 <topi`> the table in bitcoin wiki shows that we should expect at least 232 Mhash/s for the 6870
2195 2011-04-26 20:40:40 <ArtForzZz> also, we do have a #bitcoin-mining channel on here
2196 2011-04-26 20:41:02 <DukeOfURL> thanks
2197 2011-04-26 20:41:11 <ArtForzZz> topi`: play with worksize/framerate/vectors/... options
2198 2011-04-26 20:41:26 <ArtForzZz> also, for 6870, use sdk 2.4
2199 2011-04-26 20:41:35 <topi`> ArtForzZz: right. what does the '-v' flag (vectors) do anyways?
2200 2011-04-26 20:41:40 <ArtForzZz> 2.2 and 2.3 suck, 2.1 doesnt support 6xxx
2201 2011-04-26 20:41:58 <topi`> I remember 2.4 was slower than 2.1?
2202 2011-04-26 20:42:02 <ArtForzZz> it is
2203 2011-04-26 20:42:08 <BurtyB> rly it doesn't get "unset" it logs in again so it gets a new env
2204 2011-04-26 20:42:09 <topi`> but no choice there... damn...
2205 2011-04-26 20:42:23 <ArtForzZz> BurtyB: err... not really
2206 2011-04-26 20:43:07 <gasteve> if you wanted to make some significant changes in block structure, or validation rules, I wonder if the best way would be to "start over" with a new block chain
2207 2011-04-26 20:43:09 <rly> BurtyB: are you saying that my machine is lying? ;)
2208 2011-04-26 20:43:37 <ArtForzZz> my headless boxes have their miner started inside screen, and it sure as hell takes env vars from the parent process
2209 2011-04-26 20:43:45 <rly> BurtyB: it might also be coincidence that kdiff3 said that was the difference and that after making that change it started working.
2210 2011-04-26 20:43:59 <gjs278> I'll have to try out the headless stuff
2211 2011-04-26 20:44:03 <BurtyB> yeah sorry i meant tty
2212 2011-04-26 20:44:14 <amiller> gasteve, how would the economic value transfer from one to the other
2213 2011-04-26 20:44:27 <amiller> gasteve, has this even been attempted
2214 2011-04-26 20:44:32 <ArtForzZz> well ,they're not really headless, if you connect a display you'll see a completely empty X screen
2215 2011-04-26 20:44:35 <amiller> i bet it would be on the forum if it had
2216 2011-04-26 20:44:45 <ArtForzZz> with only dummy input devices configured
2217 2011-04-26 20:45:01 <ArtForzZz> = as headless as it gets while still running X
2218 2011-04-26 20:45:43 <ArtForzZz> whole / fs is 120MB
2219 2011-04-26 20:46:24 lyspooner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
2220 2011-04-26 20:46:26 <ArtForzZz> well, "fs"
2221 2011-04-26 20:46:26 <rly> ArtForzZz: do you even use a harddisk?
2222 2011-04-26 20:46:31 <ArtForzZz> nfsroot
2223 2011-04-26 20:46:56 <rly> ArtForzZz: what is your boot device?
2224 2011-04-26 20:47:00 <ArtForzZz> pxe
2225 2011-04-26 20:47:26 <gasteve> well, I was thinking if you allowed coins in the new chain to come into existence either through mining or through the exchange of bitcoins (by spending bitcoins to a null address...which I'm told is possible), and making them otherwise compatible, I think you could leverage the existing block chain (I think that would at ensure that bitcoins would remain at least as valuable as the new currency...as the new currency proved itself, bitcoins woul
2226 2011-04-26 20:47:26 <gasteve> gradually go out of existence)
2227 2011-04-26 20:47:43 jroot has quit ()
2228 2011-04-26 20:48:05 <ArtForzZz> was pretty easy to set up, as I did the same shit last century with my P3 cluster
2229 2011-04-26 20:48:30 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r4eb39450552a bitcoind-personal/ (.gitignore main.cpp main.h makefile.unix rpc.cpp serialize.h): Merge branch 'OLD_combo_4' into combo http://tinyurl.com/6d6r7mp
2230 2011-04-26 20:48:32 <CIA-89> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr combo * r503fa15a8074 bitcoind-personal/rpc.cpp: Merge branch 'txinfo' into combo http://tinyurl.com/5s33qx9
2231 2011-04-26 20:48:50 <rly> ArtForzZz: do you need multiple exactly equal machines to do that? (I suppose not.)
2232 2011-04-26 20:49:07 <ArtForzZz> with linux, no, not really
2233 2011-04-26 20:50:25 <rly> Can anyone recommend a complete solution to do traffic shaping? It can be hardware, but 'add a few network cards and install wondershaper' is also valid advice.
2234 2011-04-26 20:50:47 <BlueMatt> rly: I use pfSense personally
2235 2011-04-26 20:50:54 <Elrond> gasteve - Yeah, I think, that would work.
2236 2011-04-26 20:50:58 <BlueMatt> simple 300$ pc with a couple intel nics
2237 2011-04-26 20:51:03 <ArtForzZz> yep
2238 2011-04-26 20:51:12 <ArtForzZz> box with a few nics + pfSense
2239 2011-04-26 20:51:21 <Elrond> gasteve - If there is a design flaw in the current system, we should find it quickly, so that migrating is still possible easily.
2240 2011-04-26 20:51:45 <rly> In terms of power costs an embedded system is vastly superior, no?
2241 2011-04-26 20:51:51 <gjs278> when you have two video cards and only one is plugged in, do you have to do anything fancy when starting X to get them both to work
2242 2011-04-26 20:51:57 <gjs278> one plugged into a display that is
2243 2011-04-26 20:52:10 <ArtForzZz> not really
2244 2011-04-26 20:52:15 <gjs278> cool
2245 2011-04-26 20:52:21 <ArtForzZz> I just have one display per GPU set up in my xorg.conf
2246 2011-04-26 20:52:47 <gjs278> as long as the other display doesn't get in the way it's fine
2247 2011-04-26 20:52:51 <Elrond> rly - I wondered also about that, when seeing the MHash/sW
2248 2011-04-26 20:53:01 <ArtForzZz> btw, for embeddedy stuff, I love ALIXes
2249 2011-04-26 20:53:10 sec^nd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2250 2011-04-26 20:53:51 <ArtForzZz> http://pcengines.ch/alix.htm
2251 2011-04-26 20:54:10 * BurtyB is still using an old WRAP as a router, nice little things :)
2252 2011-04-26 20:54:18 <ArtForzZz> yep
2253 2011-04-26 20:54:22 <Elrond> Yeah, they're nice. Just a little expensive.
2254 2011-04-26 20:54:40 <ArtForzZz> I use a WRAP as a glorified AP
2255 2011-04-26 20:55:21 <ArtForzZz> sadly WRAP is a bit underpowered
2256 2011-04-26 20:55:22 <Elrond> I start to consider an efika mx.
2257 2011-04-26 20:55:35 <BlueMatt> nice hadnt heard about those, though a couple linksys dd-wrts as aps work fine for me
2258 2011-04-26 20:55:52 <ArtForzZz> 100% cpu at ~10Mb with simple FW + shaping
2259 2011-04-26 20:56:01 <BurtyB> power is ok for me, but more ram would make routing easier
2260 2011-04-26 20:56:30 <ArtForzZz> yeah, mucho nat = OOM
2261 2011-04-26 20:56:48 <rly> ArtForzZz: it is only for business consumers.
2262 2011-04-26 20:57:03 <ArtForzZz> what is?
2263 2011-04-26 20:57:15 <rly> ArtForzZz: that router. An ordinary consumer is not allowed to order one.
2264 2011-04-26 20:57:20 <ArtForzZz> wtf?
2265 2011-04-26 20:57:29 <Elrond> Any comments on this efika mx thing?
2266 2011-04-26 20:57:48 <rly> ArtForzZz: http://pcengines.ch/order.php
2267 2011-04-26 20:57:59 <rly> PC Engines will not sell to end users within the EU
2268 2011-04-26 20:58:12 <BurtyB> use a distributor
2269 2011-04-26 20:58:16 <ArtForzZz> yep
2270 2011-04-26 20:58:21 <BlueMatt> so just say you are a business?
2271 2011-04-26 20:58:57 <ArtForzZz> I just buy em through my business
2272 2011-04-26 20:58:59 <Elrond> Just buy through your company. ;)
2273 2011-04-26 20:59:03 <ArtForzZz> yep
2274 2011-04-26 20:59:46 <ArtForzZz> if you don't have your own business, you're doing it wrong ;)
2275 2011-04-26 20:59:46 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2276 2011-04-26 21:00:02 <BurtyB> heh
2277 2011-04-26 21:00:14 <ArtForzZz> btw, I can understand them, ROHS and elecronics recycling regs are a PITa to deal with
2278 2011-04-26 21:00:25 <Elrond> Well, you just need a relaxed company, which allows you to use its name. ;)
2279 2011-04-26 21:00:37 <ArtForzZz> yep
2280 2011-04-26 21:00:40 <rly> ArtForzZz: what does your business do?
2281 2011-04-26 21:01:00 <BurtyB> dreamplug might be something to look at too
2282 2011-04-26 21:01:47 <Elrond> BurtyB - Ahh, yeah, all those plugs.
2283 2011-04-26 21:01:58 <gasteve> I think if there are design flaws in bitcoin that remain, it is likely in the economics of mining as the block reward diminishes ...there may also be a flaw in the fact that the costs of running non-mining client aren't accounted for...when transaction volumes rise, the cost of running a p2p client could become significant...there should always be incentives to run miners and p2p clients such that the network remains strong and hence less vulner
2284 2011-04-26 21:01:59 <gasteve> to a powerful miner (note, I think due to the rise in cost of transaction validation, it might end up that the only clients doing validations are ones that are also mining and have strong incentives to incur the costs of that validation)
2285 2011-04-26 21:01:59 <ArtForzZz> well, I got 3
2286 2011-04-26 21:02:01 <rly> I start a business the minute I have a viable business idea.
2287 2011-04-26 21:02:34 <rly> I am not scared for execution, I just am a bit critical on my own ideas (and those of others).
2288 2011-04-26 21:03:40 <Elrond> gasteve - (the first of your two lines got truncated)
2289 2011-04-26 21:04:48 <Elrond> gasteve - I noticed that too. I just looked at the current "difficulty" and concluded "Why should I run a miner? My harware needs years to create one block. The power costs don't warrant that."
2290 2011-04-26 21:05:41 <BlueMatt> gasteve: we have a long time before we really need to worry about that
2291 2011-04-26 21:05:48 <gasteve> yeah, but that's because there are already so many that are mining...that's a sign of a healthy mining economy
2292 2011-04-26 21:06:11 <ArtForzZz> my oldest business is doing electronic design, then one for my PV farm, and now one for my bitcoin stuff
2293 2011-04-26 21:06:28 <gasteve> I'm worried that when the reward diminishes, that the mining activity might also...and yes, there plenty of time to ponder and worry about it
2294 2011-04-26 21:07:01 <ArtForzZz> started the first one pretty much when I got my degree
2295 2011-04-26 21:07:51 <gasteve> it might just mean that you need to tweak the volume of free transactions that are allowed, or change the rules about how long free transactions are allowed to stew in the network before being included in a block
2296 2011-04-26 21:08:29 <gasteve> (in other words, make sure there is sufficient incentive to pay a transaction fee)
2297 2011-04-26 21:09:18 <BlueMatt> gasteve: I disagree, mining is clearly a market failure...but that doesnt mean there wont be people to help that (that is after all, one of government's jobs)
2298 2011-04-26 21:09:34 <BlueMatt> also, I can easily see budinesses mining because it is in the network's best interst
2299 2011-04-26 21:09:35 <molecular> gasteve, this will regulate itself: incentive to pay fee rises if there's not enough tx-processing nodes, because if you don't pay, it takes too long to get money through.
2300 2011-04-26 21:09:40 <gasteve> why do you say mining is a market failure?
2301 2011-04-26 21:09:46 <BlueMatt> molecular: not at all true
2302 2011-04-26 21:09:51 <BlueMatt> gasteve: market failure in the economic sense
2303 2011-04-26 21:09:58 <gasteve> how so?
2304 2011-04-26 21:10:05 <BlueMatt> ie the benifit of mining isnt accurately shown in its price
2305 2011-04-26 21:10:17 <BlueMatt> more benifit than what you get paid
2306 2011-04-26 21:10:27 sosborn has left ()
2307 2011-04-26 21:10:35 <BlueMatt> but there are many ways of fixing a market failure
2308 2011-04-26 21:10:36 xlogik has joined
2309 2011-04-26 21:10:41 <gasteve> I don't follow...I have a couple rigs and I know well the economics
2310 2011-04-26 21:11:03 d4de has joined
2311 2011-04-26 21:11:13 <BlueMatt> gasteve: I thought your point was that miners might not get paid enough for there to be a strong network as incentives decrease?
2312 2011-04-26 21:11:28 <ArtForzZz> holy shit, my miners are having a lucky day
2313 2011-04-26 21:11:38 <BlueMatt> wanna send some of that over this way?
2314 2011-04-26 21:11:57 <ArtForzZz> 16 blocks so far
2315 2011-04-26 21:12:28 <molecular> my miner also has a lucky day, 1 block today ;)
2316 2011-04-26 21:12:40 <gasteve> my point was that as the block reward approaches zero, there might not be enough revenue from transactions to result in mining activity that is sufficient to mitigate the risk of a powerful miner attack
2317 2011-04-26 21:12:56 <gasteve> but, right now, the economics of mining are pretty decent
2318 2011-04-26 21:14:28 tenach has joined
2319 2011-04-26 21:14:43 <BlueMatt> gasteve: hence it is a market failure
2320 2011-04-26 21:15:01 <molecular> ArtForzZz, I've been away for a couple of weeks. What's the status of your ASICs?
2321 2011-04-26 21:15:03 <BlueMatt> actual utility !proportional to price
2322 2011-04-26 21:15:23 <lfm> I think it will be pretty obvious when more fees are needed, the miners will be saving power till enuf txn fees are pending to make them start up
2323 2011-04-26 21:15:39 <BlueMatt> lfm: but we cant let that happen
2324 2011-04-26 21:15:43 <BlueMatt> the network will then not be secure
2325 2011-04-26 21:15:52 <lfm> huh?
2326 2011-04-26 21:16:11 <BlueMatt> lfm: if miners go offline because they arent making money the network becomes vulnerable
2327 2011-04-26 21:16:25 <lfm> why
2328 2011-04-26 21:16:51 <BlueMatt> because less network power means 50% becomes easier?
2329 2011-04-26 21:16:52 <molecular> maybe by that time, there will be other incentives to run miners, like simply protecting the currency?
2330 2011-04-26 21:16:55 <ArtForzZz> molecular: 19.2Ghps online, another 19.2Ghps coming online in 2-4weeks
2331 2011-04-26 21:16:55 <lfm> about all that happens is difficulty drops a bit
2332 2011-04-26 21:17:06 <BlueMatt> 50% becomes easier
2333 2011-04-26 21:17:23 <BlueMatt> molecular: protecting the currency is not an incentive, but yes there will be other incentives...
2334 2011-04-26 21:17:26 MartianW has quit (Quit: Bye all.)
2335 2011-04-26 21:17:41 <molecular> ArtForzZz, nice! But 2 x 19.2Ghps sounds like more than your initial batch of 100, no?
2336 2011-04-26 21:17:44 <lfm> maybe easier, doesnt mean by then it would be feasable anywat
2337 2011-04-26 21:17:47 <BlueMatt> its a market failure and although the people in the market who follow basic economics wont correct it, others will provide added incentive
2338 2011-04-26 21:17:48 <gasteve> I wonder if a system that dynamically adjusts the rules around free or low fee transactions could be useful...if mining activity (and hence difficulty) is less than ideal (and you need to figure out what ideal means), then free transactions could be allowed to stew for longer, or be rejected altogether...if mining activity is higher, then more free transactions could be allowed and they could be allowed to process quicker
2339 2011-04-26 21:18:05 <ArtForzZz> well, the coming 19.2 are a 2nd batch of 100
2340 2011-04-26 21:18:09 <BlueMatt> lfm: depends on your model of future fees...some people think it will tend toward 0
2341 2011-04-26 21:18:11 <molecular> cool
2342 2011-04-26 21:18:17 <BlueMatt> gasteve: I highly disagree
2343 2011-04-26 21:18:28 <molecular> ArtForzZz, are you still planning on selling assembled rigs?
2344 2011-04-26 21:18:32 <BlueMatt> one of the biggest adoption incentives we have is the predictable currency
2345 2011-04-26 21:19:02 <gasteve> BlueMatt: what do you disagree with?
2346 2011-04-26 21:19:02 <BlueMatt> take away that and the people who cry "ponzi scheme" will cry even louder
2347 2011-04-26 21:19:20 <BlueMatt> gasteve: dynamically adjusting base fees
2348 2011-04-26 21:19:21 <gasteve> and what do you mean by "predictable currency"?
2349 2011-04-26 21:19:30 <BlueMatt> the predictable total value of bitcoins
2350 2011-04-26 21:19:41 <BlueMatt> the predictable 50 btc/10 minutes
2351 2011-04-26 21:19:47 <BlueMatt> the predictable 21 million total
2352 2011-04-26 21:20:13 <ArtForzZz> molecular: probably not, but I'm working on something that should be more appealing
2353 2011-04-26 21:20:17 <BlueMatt> that is one of the largest reasons people like the idea of bitcoin (or at least are willing to put their money into it)
2354 2011-04-26 21:21:01 <gasteve> I think you dynamically adjust the base fee & base level of service to ensure there is always enough incentive to maintain a healthy level of mining activity
2355 2011-04-26 21:21:02 <molecular> ArtForzZz, what's that?
2356 2011-04-26 21:21:18 <BlueMatt> gasteve: it would solve one problem but create another...adoption
2357 2011-04-26 21:21:24 <molecular> ArtForzZz, something along the lines of what vladimir does?
2358 2011-04-26 21:21:37 <ArtForzZz> not quite
2359 2011-04-26 21:21:43 <ArtForzZz> let's just say the coming generation of xilinx FPGAs will provide a decent jump on price/perf, especially if you build things without shitloads of unneccessary stuff and "enterprise" priced parts
2360 2011-04-26 21:21:47 <BlueMatt> who would put their money in a system that just keeps growing like current currencies when they came to bitcoin in order to get a slice of the 21 million in the future
2361 2011-04-26 21:21:52 <gasteve> I don't think so...because for a long while yet, there will still be inflation (and a fee for blocks) and that will ensure free transactions for a long time to come
2362 2011-04-26 21:22:03 <BlueMatt> I have nothing against current currencies, but many people in the bitcoin community do
2363 2011-04-26 21:22:54 <molecular> ArtForzZz, could that beat hps/w of your asics?
2364 2011-04-26 21:23:04 <gasteve> BlueMatt: I wasn't saying to adjust the block fee or continue inflation of bitcoins (in case you misunderstood me)
2365 2011-04-26 21:23:17 <BlueMatt> gasteve: ok then i suppose I did misunderstand?
2366 2011-04-26 21:23:22 <BlueMatt> what was your suggestion?
2367 2011-04-26 21:23:46 <ArtForzZz> well, theres no production silicon yet, but from what I've seen should be roughly able to tie my ASICs on hash/$ and hash/W
2368 2011-04-26 21:23:57 <ArtForzZz> and that while being reprogrammable
2369 2011-04-26 21:24:51 <gasteve> you dynamically adjust the base transaction fee (zero or something higher than zero) as well as the service you get for that fee (block inclusion within 4 hours vs 12 hours and such)...block rewards would still continue on the same declining trajectory (with the 21million cap)
2370 2011-04-26 21:26:01 <BlueMatt> interesting idea
2371 2011-04-26 21:26:10 <BlueMatt> though youd have to get the vast majority of miners to agree
2372 2011-04-26 21:26:17 <amiller> ArtForzZz, would you give or sell or license softcores for your asics
2373 2011-04-26 21:26:45 <gasteve> if the difficulty is less than ideal the base fee rises and/or the base service level decreases (i.e. takes longer for free transactions to be processed) ...if the difficulty is higher than ideal, you are more generous with free transactions and the level of service
2374 2011-04-26 21:26:46 <BlueMatt> I think decreasing the time for a tx to confirm is the wrong approach though
2375 2011-04-26 21:27:00 <BlueMatt> plus I doubt we would ever need it
2376 2011-04-26 21:27:20 <BlueMatt> as I said, there are many ways of correcting a market failure like mining and some people are bound to do it
2377 2011-04-26 21:27:33 <BlueMatt> though I could see several miners doing that
2378 2011-04-26 21:27:48 <gasteve> you would have to get not only the miners to agree, but the majority of clients as well (since they would set the rules about what are valid blocks and which transactions must be included in them)
2379 2011-04-26 21:27:52 <BlueMatt> and I would can see where they would be coming from
2380 2011-04-26 21:28:06 <BlueMatt> gasteve: no clients wouldnt matter
2381 2011-04-26 21:28:10 kermit has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2382 2011-04-26 21:28:19 <BlueMatt> they dont set the rules about which txes should be in blocks
2383 2011-04-26 21:28:22 validus has joined
2384 2011-04-26 21:28:26 <BlueMatt> only which blocks to accept
2385 2011-04-26 21:28:30 <ArtForzZz> btw, for MD5 and SHA1, FPGAs already pretty decisively beat GPUs
2386 2011-04-26 21:28:38 <BlueMatt> and they arent going to just start dropping blocks because they dont like the miners
2387 2011-04-26 21:28:40 <ArtForzZz> next gen shoudl widen that gap even more
2388 2011-04-26 21:29:10 <gasteve> well, I think there are rules regarding the age of a transaction and that is part of establishing a priority (old transactions are given a higher priority)
2389 2011-04-26 21:29:13 <ArtForzZz> and thats probably not going to change unless GPUs magically get 20 times more efficient
2390 2011-04-26 21:29:49 <ArtForzZz> good old "wider, not faster" approach
2391 2011-04-26 21:29:57 <BlueMatt> gasteve: no, not in client processing
2392 2011-04-26 21:29:59 <BlueMatt> only miners
2393 2011-04-26 21:30:13 <BlueMatt> as clients accept any-age txes because they have to accept chain reorgs
2394 2011-04-26 21:30:35 Diablo-D3 has joined
2395 2011-04-26 21:31:48 <gasteve> I'm fuzzy on the details of what the clients validate and what they don't ...when they get a block, are they just validating that the transactions inside all balance out and that's it (aside from validating the difficulty and such)?
2396 2011-04-26 21:32:05 <BlueMatt> yep
2397 2011-04-26 21:32:07 <BlueMatt> pretty much
2398 2011-04-26 21:32:17 <ArtForzZz> thay also validate tx signatures
2399 2011-04-26 21:32:25 <ArtForzZz> (duh)
2400 2011-04-26 21:32:33 <gasteve> ok...so they don't really care whether theres a transaction floating around in the network that is old and wasn't included in the block
2401 2011-04-26 21:32:40 pirrr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2402 2011-04-26 21:32:43 <gasteve> ?
2403 2011-04-26 21:32:46 <ArtForzZz> nope
2404 2011-04-26 21:33:02 <ArtForzZz> they'll happily accept a block containing nothing but the generation tx
2405 2011-04-26 21:33:17 <ArtForzZz> even if theres a few 1000 tx floating about withing to get intp blocks
2406 2011-04-26 21:33:18 <gasteve> ok
2407 2011-04-26 21:34:08 <BlueMatt> the idea is sound, but I just disagree with it on principal...but who knows, it might be necessary some day.
2408 2011-04-26 21:34:26 <BlueMatt> however the miners want to make sure they make their profit is fine by me
2409 2011-04-26 21:36:45 <gasteve> I suppose, no matter what, mining activity would be profitable, the question is at where will the difficult trend to make it remain profitable...will it start trending down (bad) or up (good)
2410 2011-04-26 21:37:29 <gasteve> and, will mining start consolidating into a few, very efficient, mining operations (probably, but not very good either)
2411 2011-04-26 21:37:50 <BlueMatt> yea down is most likely but if bitcoin gets enough adoption before then, mining will be funded as a part of other costs
2412 2011-04-26 21:37:59 <Elrond> Another interesting question in this economics area is the db size: Ince it's several GB, normal clients wont want that. And people running a full client with the full db should be rewarded somehow.
2413 2011-04-26 21:38:59 <gasteve> Elrond: I thought that too, but I think if you ensure enough mining activity, it's not a huge deal if there aren't a lot of others running the full client
2414 2011-04-26 21:39:10 <BlueMatt> I dont think that will be a problem, but most people will be running thin clients anyway
2415 2011-04-26 21:39:27 <BlueMatt> several GB is nothing
2416 2011-04-26 21:39:59 <gasteve> since a powerful miner can take over the network, it's mining power that is the threat...you don't really need millions of people running and validating the full block chain
2417 2011-04-26 21:40:11 <Elrond> BlueMatt - several GB aren't nice for a thin client. It's nothing for people running full servers anyway.
2418 2011-04-26 21:40:24 <BlueMatt> Elrond: thin clients dont need the blockchain
2419 2011-04-26 21:40:33 <gasteve> you just need a large and diverse set of miners, all of which will be validating the block chain
2420 2011-04-26 21:40:53 <Elrond> gasteve - Hmm, you're probably right.
2421 2011-04-26 21:41:20 <gasteve> (although, will pooled mining, that's not necessarily the case either...only the pool operator needs to validate the block chain)
2422 2011-04-26 21:41:59 <Elrond> Hmm, how do thin clients get trust?
2423 2011-04-26 21:42:15 <gasteve> the connect to a full client they trust
2424 2011-04-26 21:42:38 <BlueMatt> Elrond: they depend on the miners for security
2425 2011-04-26 21:42:41 <Elrond> Yeah. So running a full client for thin clients might become a business.
2426 2011-04-26 21:42:52 <BlueMatt> doubt that
2427 2011-04-26 21:43:03 <BlueMatt> but online wallet services, yes
2428 2011-04-26 21:43:18 <Elrond> Yep, that too.
2429 2011-04-26 21:43:26 <gasteve> which is basically running a full client for thin clients
2430 2011-04-26 21:43:29 <lianj> or maybe just a handful of certified trusted miners, like eff, mbox and paypal. you decide which of these to trust and these thin clients can skip p2p step.
2431 2011-04-26 21:44:31 <gasteve> be careful with "certification" ...that could lead to centralization and eventually to gross mis-allocations of trust
2432 2011-04-26 21:44:41 <lianj> i am :)
2433 2011-04-26 21:45:02 <Elrond> Well, full clients as a business wouldn't be really that big-revenue of course. But a few .0001 per connect or so. ;)
2434 2011-04-26 21:45:27 brunner has joined
2435 2011-04-26 21:46:20 <BlueMatt> big wallet sites run miners which prioritize their own txes
2436 2011-04-26 21:46:31 <BlueMatt> is my idea of the future
2437 2011-04-26 21:46:40 <Elrond> Yeah, or that.
2438 2011-04-26 21:46:42 <lianj> gasteve: i think some kind of certificated mining group is going to evolve anw. but its not making the software more centralized, there are good reasons for CAs
2439 2011-04-26 21:47:09 <gasteve> a mining cartel?
2440 2011-04-26 21:47:21 brunner has quit (Client Quit)
2441 2011-04-26 21:47:51 <lianj> if the group is diverse enough it might not end in a cartel
2442 2011-04-26 21:48:01 <BlueMatt> lianj: what advantage would that have for anyone involved?
2443 2011-04-26 21:48:07 <Elrond> BlueMatt - Which is like prioritizing txns with some fee in it.
2444 2011-04-26 21:48:31 <BlueMatt> Elrond: yes, but they arent working for profit they are working for themselves and for their own security
2445 2011-04-26 21:48:58 <Elrond> BlueMatt - Yep.
2446 2011-04-26 21:49:00 <gasteve> you're not making the software more centralized, but you are asking people to more centrally allocate their trust (i.e. buy only connecting to this network and excluding others)
2447 2011-04-26 21:49:55 <lianj> BlueMatt: thin clients dont need to take part in the p2p broadcast, they have middlemen they trust checking the chain
2448 2011-04-26 21:49:57 <lulzplzkthx> I want a time machine to go back when Bitocoins were worth .003 cents, and could be easily generated.
2449 2011-04-26 21:50:20 <lulzplzkthx> I'd set every computer I could find on generate, and become rich in six monthhs.
2450 2011-04-26 21:50:34 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2451 2011-04-26 21:50:36 <gasteve> I want a time machine so that I could find what what stock will be up the most tomorrow ;)
2452 2011-04-26 21:50:47 <BlueMatt> lianj: that doesnt give anyone incentive to mine or form a cartel?
2453 2011-04-26 21:52:24 Incitatus has joined
2454 2011-04-26 21:53:07 <gasteve> so, I still have this concern about declining difficulty as block rewards decline...but at the same time, I think it is likely to sort itself out with perhaps only a few small tweaks to the system
2455 2011-04-26 21:53:31 <BlueMatt> gasteve: if we get adoption, I dont think we need tweaks
2456 2011-04-26 21:54:07 <gasteve> maybe not
2457 2011-04-26 21:54:09 <lfm> and if there are enuf fees it could sort itself out without any tweaks
2458 2011-04-26 21:54:16 amiller has joined
2459 2011-04-26 21:54:31 <BlueMatt> lfm: I agree with TD that fees will trend toward 0
2460 2011-04-26 21:54:33 <gasteve> there is limited space for free transactions correct?
2461 2011-04-26 21:54:39 <gasteve> (in each block)
2462 2011-04-26 21:54:51 <ArtForzZz> yes
2463 2011-04-26 21:54:54 <lfm> gasteve: ya cvurrently
2464 2011-04-26 21:55:24 <gasteve> and that has led to cases where transactions don't get included for many hours
2465 2011-04-26 21:55:26 TheKid has joined
2466 2011-04-26 21:55:26 TheKid has quit (Changing host)
2467 2011-04-26 21:55:26 TheKid has joined
2468 2011-04-26 21:55:34 <ArtForzZz> or days
2469 2011-04-26 21:55:37 <lfm> gasteve: ya
2470 2011-04-26 21:55:41 <xelister> ArtForzZz: diablominer CPU mining not working on windows with amd stream sdk , java  crashes inside OpenGL.OpenCL of that java lib. any idea what could be wrong?
2471 2011-04-26 21:55:55 <ArtForzZz> xelister: no
2472 2011-04-26 21:56:05 <xelister> Ati.  :-E
2473 2011-04-26 21:56:19 <ArtForzZz> maybe ask diablo, he'll tell you how it's all intels fault ;)
2474 2011-04-26 21:56:20 <molecular> my miner doesn't include non-free tx at all currently
2475 2011-04-26 21:56:40 <xelister> molecular: hm?
2476 2011-04-26 21:56:41 <ArtForzZz> my miner does
2477 2011-04-26 21:56:51 <gasteve> maybe the free space should vary with difficulty (higher difficulty, more free space, lower difficulty, less free space)
2478 2011-04-26 21:56:53 <ArtForzZz> why wouldnt it, currently free transactions are a feature
2479 2011-04-26 21:56:54 <xelister> doesn't include payable tx at all?
2480 2011-04-26 21:57:03 <molecular> well, I had to go that way, because when backlog is big, my cpu can't handle the block assembly quickly enough
2481 2011-04-26 21:57:16 <ArtForzZz> molecular: easy to fix
2482 2011-04-26 21:57:18 <xelister> hmmm???
2483 2011-04-26 21:57:19 <molecular> how?
2484 2011-04-26 21:57:20 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2485 2011-04-26 21:57:25 <ArtForzZz> as slush ;)
2486 2011-04-26 21:57:37 <xelister> molecular: your miner does NOT include the PAYABLE tx'es? and includes free ones?  not viceversa?
2487 2011-04-26 21:57:48 <edcba> haha
2488 2011-04-26 21:57:51 <molecular> it excludes tx with no fee
2489 2011-04-26 21:57:59 <edcba> pff
2490 2011-04-26 21:58:01 <xelister> that makes more sense ;)
2491 2011-04-26 21:58:10 <ArtForzZz> I fixed it in a cleaner way, but my current impl probably breaks other shit
2492 2011-04-26 21:58:22 <xelister> ArtForzZz: in what way?
2493 2011-04-26 21:58:23 * molecular noticed he said it the wrong way before, sorry
2494 2011-04-26 21:58:27 KBme has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2495 2011-04-26 21:58:29 <xelister> and what is slush way
2496 2011-04-26 21:59:28 <ArtForzZz> slush runs buildblock once every 2? 5? minutes in the thread receiving the tx
2497 2011-04-26 21:59:45 <ArtForzZz> my method doesnt check tx at all anymore in buildblock ,instead onyl doing tx verification once
2498 2011-04-26 21:59:53 <xelister> by default buildblock is triggered by receiving tx?
2499 2011-04-26 22:00:06 <ArtForzZz> yes, kinda
2500 2011-04-26 22:00:13 <molecular> will any of ArtForzZz or slush 's methods be in a future client at some point?
2501 2011-04-26 22:00:21 <xelister> btw which file@line is the function executed on incomming tx?
2502 2011-04-26 22:00:25 <ArtForzZz> iz runs in rpc thread when new tx are avail and at least 60 sec elapsed sincle last buolödbock
2503 2011-04-26 22:00:37 <xelister> buolödbock®
2504 2011-04-26 22:00:41 <molecular> lol
2505 2011-04-26 22:00:46 <xelister> oh you germans
2506 2011-04-26 22:00:48 <validus> what flags should be given to a nvidia card or the forum post that has what was used for testing the hash rates?
2507 2011-04-26 22:00:55 <molecular> blödblock
2508 2011-04-26 22:00:55 <ArtForzZz> rofl
2509 2011-04-26 22:01:02 <xelister> btw that reminds me of reddit
2510 2011-04-26 22:01:07 <ArtForzZz> molecular: actually LOLed at that one
2511 2011-04-26 22:01:21 <xelister> - son if I ever send someone to pick you up he will know the password 'ballerin'  - ok dad
2512 2011-04-26 22:01:31 <molecular> I'll keep it in my repository of curse-words, blödblock is hilarious
2513 2011-04-26 22:01:41 <netxshare> validus what miner are you use?
2514 2011-04-26 22:01:50 lianj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2515 2011-04-26 22:01:55 <xelister> - key kid my dad send me to pick you up with my van      - oh ok ^_^ wait, what is the password?  - password...? :o  - oh, you pedophiles ^_^
2516 2011-04-26 22:01:58 <validus> im using poclbm gui atm
2517 2011-04-26 22:02:02 <netxshare> all I use is -v on my gtx 570
2518 2011-04-26 22:02:09 <xelister> *your dad ofcourse
2519 2011-04-26 22:02:13 <netxshare> and I get 122mh/s
2520 2011-04-26 22:02:23 <validus> hmm , maybe ill try that
2521 2011-04-26 22:02:28 <validus> i have 2 gtx 560 ti's
2522 2011-04-26 22:02:31 <validus> only using 1 atm
2523 2011-04-26 22:02:54 <ArtForzZz> but I'm pretty sure my way still breaks chain reorg and adding wallet tx in new and exciting ways
2524 2011-04-26 22:02:54 <gasteve> over the last 24 hours, there were an avg of ~20 transactions/block ...that means that to replace a 50btc reward, you would need an after tx free of 2.5btc
2525 2011-04-26 22:03:03 <xelister> btw
2526 2011-04-26 22:03:09 <xelister> how to make a new bitcoin wallet
2527 2011-04-26 22:03:14 <xelister> with reusing old downloaded blocks
2528 2011-04-26 22:03:22 <xelister> which files to compy into fresh bitcoin install
2529 2011-04-26 22:03:29 <molecular> gasteve, 20 tx/block doesn't sound right in 10 years
2530 2011-04-26 22:03:42 lianj has joined
2531 2011-04-26 22:03:47 KBme has joined
2532 2011-04-26 22:03:52 <xelister> molecular: hopefully thousands tx/block :)
2533 2011-04-26 22:03:54 <ArtForzZz> I only let tx that pass full verification into tx cache, and recheck cache on new block
2534 2011-04-26 22:04:27 <gasteve> ok, then in 2 years, you will need 1.25btc to replace the 25btc that will go away
2535 2011-04-26 22:04:38 <ArtForzZz> unverifiable go into orphan cache, tx that collide with what I currently think is a valid tx get discarded
2536 2011-04-26 22:04:40 <gasteve> (1.25 btc/tx)
2537 2011-04-26 22:04:55 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2538 2011-04-26 22:05:28 <ArtForzZz> but I'm pretty sure I'm missing at least 2 dozen corner cases
2539 2011-04-26 22:05:54 <Elrond> ArtForzZz - Is that all by now in the standard client?
2540 2011-04-26 22:06:01 <ArtForzZz> nope
2541 2011-04-26 22:06:19 <molecular> well, according to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability, visa does about 2000 tx/s, that would amount to 1.2 million tx/block. in that case an average tx fee of 0.00004 BTC would mean 50 BTC/block
2542 2011-04-26 22:06:24 <ArtForzZz> thats all in my private tree currently, as this shit is FAR from being i nanything that should run in numbers larger than 1
2543 2011-04-26 22:06:41 <ArtForzZz> and in some parts I'm not exactly sure wtf I did, aka completely missed the ballmer peak while writing it
2544 2011-04-26 22:07:09 amiller has joined
2545 2011-04-26 22:07:20 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2546 2011-04-26 22:07:23 validus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2547 2011-04-26 22:07:52 validus has joined
2548 2011-04-26 22:07:54 luke-jr has quit (otg!~luke-jr@ishibashi.dashjr.org|Read error: Operation timed out)
2549 2011-04-26 22:07:58 <validus> can u tell me that again. i locked up hehe
2550 2011-04-26 22:08:24 tabsa has joined
2551 2011-04-26 22:08:47 <ArtForzZz> what you say?
2552 2011-04-26 22:08:52 luke-jr has joined
2553 2011-04-26 22:09:03 <gasteve> molecular: 2000 tx/s in 2013 doesn't sound right either
2554 2011-04-26 22:09:16 <validus> the settings for nvidia , all i saw was -v and then i locked myself up
2555 2011-04-26 22:09:31 luke-jr has joined
2556 2011-04-26 22:10:13 <gasteve> so, what would be a reasonable tx fee?  0.01?
2557 2011-04-26 22:10:26 <lfm> 1.0
2558 2011-04-26 22:10:29 <ArtForzZz> 42?
2559 2011-04-26 22:10:32 <ArtForzZz> over 9000?
2560 2011-04-26 22:10:59 <gasteve> at 0.01, you'd need 2500/block to replace the lost 25btc in 2013
2561 2011-04-26 22:11:52 orzo has joined
2562 2011-04-26 22:11:56 <molecular> 0.42?
2563 2011-04-26 22:12:17 <gasteve> dwolla charges $0.25 per transaction...it would be nice if bitcoin transactions could be cheaper than that and sustain the level of difficulty
2564 2011-04-26 22:12:48 <molecular> gasteve, you're right. 2k tx in 2013 is too much. lets make in 20 tx/s, then a fee of 0.004 would be plenty for miners, no?
2565 2011-04-26 22:13:33 <BlueMatt> .01 is already "recommended"
2566 2011-04-26 22:13:34 Kiba has joined
2567 2011-04-26 22:13:37 <gasteve> you really think that's going to happen by 2013?  (20 tx/s)
2568 2011-04-26 22:13:37 <molecular> but given that 1BTC = 1000$ in 2013, 0.004 BTC fee is quite high
2569 2011-04-26 22:13:39 <orzo> is this an official wiki? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral
2570 2011-04-26 22:13:54 <molecular> uh, did I say 2013?
2571 2011-04-26 22:14:02 <molecular> originally said "in 10 years"
2572 2011-04-26 22:14:31 <molecular> you guys think 20 tx/s in 2021 is probable?
2573 2011-04-26 22:14:33 <gasteve> I think it would be rather bad if a transaction cost you the equivalent of $4
2574 2011-04-26 22:14:44 <molecular> agreed
2575 2011-04-26 22:14:54 <ArtForzZz> and in 90 years?
2576 2011-04-26 22:14:54 <gasteve> (if $1000/btc was the exchange rate and the fee was 0.004 btc)
2577 2011-04-26 22:15:07 <molecular> but then the 4 were calculated to match the current 50 BTC generation reward
2578 2011-04-26 22:15:09 <BlueMatt> if .01 txfee is recommended but the default is 0, why dont we just change the default to .01 and make the noobs pay?
2579 2011-04-26 22:15:19 <BlueMatt> they still get really cheap txes and everyone gets to mine
2580 2011-04-26 22:15:23 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2581 2011-04-26 22:15:31 <molecular> we want "transactions are free" for marketing reasons
2582 2011-04-26 22:15:38 <BlueMatt> txes are still free
2583 2011-04-26 22:15:42 luke-jr has joined
2584 2011-04-26 22:15:44 <orzo> i think https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral is wrong and embarassing
2585 2011-04-26 22:15:46 <molecular> I currently pay 0.0001 fee
2586 2011-04-26 22:15:48 <BlueMatt> just not to people who cant read an options dialog
2587 2011-04-26 22:15:56 <gasteve> ^^^ I agree with free transactions for marketing...in the short term
2588 2011-04-26 22:15:56 <BlueMatt> orzo: then change it...its a wiki
2589 2011-04-26 22:16:18 <BlueMatt> orzo: though I agree, that is one of the largest issues with btc as a currency...it just wouldnt work
2590 2011-04-26 22:16:27 <BlueMatt> orzo: but it can still have MANY other uses
2591 2011-04-26 22:16:33 <Kiba> it just odesn't work?
2592 2011-04-26 22:16:43 <Kiba> orzo: what's so embrassing about the article?
2593 2011-04-26 22:17:06 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2594 2011-04-26 22:17:22 <BlueMatt> Kiba: it goes against many of the ideas of bitcoin will have loans, etc built on top of it
2595 2011-04-26 22:17:38 <Kiba> BlueMatt: and..umm? what?
2596 2011-04-26 22:17:42 <BlueMatt> people say it will be the same as a current economy, then turn around and say it wont
2597 2011-04-26 22:17:54 <Kiba> BlueMatt: I don't understand
2598 2011-04-26 22:18:00 <BlueMatt> Kiba: read the article linked
2599 2011-04-26 22:18:20 <orzo> well, kiba, it's utterly unconvincing and it seems manipulative
2600 2011-04-26 22:18:34 <orzo> such as the phrase "Bitcoins only deflate in value when the Bitcoin Economy is growing. "
2601 2011-04-26 22:18:44 <Kiba> somebody
2602 2011-04-26 22:18:46 <orzo> deflate in value?  Like when we have inflaction the dollar is inflating in value?
2603 2011-04-26 22:18:50 <Kiba> changed the whole meaning of my article
2604 2011-04-26 22:18:53 <gasteve> bitcoins increasing in value is not the boogeyman everyone claims it to be...it's silly, ingrained Keynesian thinking
2605 2011-04-26 22:19:06 <gasteve> s/everyone/many people/
2606 2011-04-26 22:19:15 <BlueMatt> orzo: please fix it :)
2607 2011-04-26 22:19:16 <Blitzboom> deflation is awesome, inflation is crap
2608 2011-04-26 22:19:22 <Blitzboom> problem, bernankes?
2609 2011-04-26 22:19:29 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: not quite true
2610 2011-04-26 22:19:31 <BlueMatt> see: japan
2611 2011-04-26 22:19:35 <Kiba> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Deflationary_spiral&oldid=331
2612 2011-04-26 22:19:50 <BlueMatt> before the quake they had been working for quite a while to kill deflation and go back to inflation
2613 2011-04-26 22:20:18 <Blitzboom> why do we still have no inflationary bitcoin?
2614 2011-04-26 22:20:30 <Kiba> nobody wants an inflationary bitcoin
2615 2011-04-26 22:20:30 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: because it doesnt work for adoption
2616 2011-04-26 22:20:35 <Blitzboom> i know
2617 2011-04-26 22:20:40 <Blitzboom> but i want to see it tried :P
2618 2011-04-26 22:20:53 <BlueMatt> bitcoin works great as a medium of echange but not as an economy-backer medium of exchange
2619 2011-04-26 22:20:57 <Kiba> BlueMatt: People said Japan spend too much rather than deflation being a  problem
2620 2011-04-26 22:21:11 <gasteve> deflation is only a problem if you view the economy in Keynesian terms
2621 2011-04-26 22:21:15 <ArtForzZz> Blitzboom: see #carrot
2622 2011-04-26 22:21:28 <BlueMatt> Kiba: deflation is also a problem for loans
2623 2011-04-26 22:21:36 <Kiba> gasteve: Keynesian don't have a theory of time preference
2624 2011-04-26 22:21:45 <Kiba> I made a few loans with nanotube before
2625 2011-04-26 22:21:45 <ArtForzZz> BlueMatt: not really
2626 2011-04-26 22:21:49 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: no
2627 2011-04-26 22:21:50 <Kiba> paid it back no problem
2628 2011-04-26 22:22:01 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: for long-term loan-backed economy, yes
2629 2011-04-26 22:22:04 <BlueMatt> like ours and like any future one
2630 2011-04-26 22:22:08 <Kiba> somebody went into that article
2631 2011-04-26 22:22:08 <Blitzboom> if you have too many cheap loans then your economy has a problem
2632 2011-04-26 22:22:14 <Kiba> and fucked up my time preference theory argument
2633 2011-04-26 22:22:15 <Blitzboom> because of malinvestment
2634 2011-04-26 22:22:29 <ArtForzZz> yep
2635 2011-04-26 22:22:30 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: but its what creates economic growth, can you come up with a better growth model?
2636 2011-04-26 22:22:32 <Kiba> inflations make everything looks profitable
2637 2011-04-26 22:22:34 <orzo> Kiba: your version is much better
2638 2011-04-26 22:22:40 <orzo> you should revert it
2639 2011-04-26 22:22:53 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: yes. savings
2640 2011-04-26 22:22:56 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
2641 2011-04-26 22:23:07 <gasteve> just make your loans be in terms of some cost of living index instead of bitcoins and you have no issue
2642 2011-04-26 22:23:11 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: how does that grow an economy?
2643 2011-04-26 22:23:19 <Blitzboom> also, you can always take loans even in a deflationary environment
2644 2011-04-26 22:23:25 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: you save and invest
2645 2011-04-26 22:23:30 <Blitzboom> loans will just be more risky
2646 2011-04-26 22:23:35 <Blitzboom> and that’s how it is supposed to be
2647 2011-04-26 22:23:37 <orzo> its a shame that the wiki editors didnt make a net contribution
2648 2011-04-26 22:23:37 <orzo> heh
2649 2011-04-26 22:23:49 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: how does saving invest? unles its investing which is loaning not saving
2650 2011-04-26 22:24:03 <Blitzboom> you save money and invest it, BlueMatt
2651 2011-04-26 22:24:12 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: saving doesnt let you invest
2652 2011-04-26 22:24:17 <Blitzboom> sure it does
2653 2011-04-26 22:24:20 <gasteve> saving is investing
2654 2011-04-26 22:24:27 <BlueMatt> and the reason you get an interest rate to save at a bank is because they loan it out
2655 2011-04-26 22:24:30 <BlueMatt> ie saving == loaning
2656 2011-04-26 22:24:34 <gasteve> it's investing in the general economy rather than any specific enterprise
2657 2011-04-26 22:24:35 <lfm> investing in the bank if nothing else
2658 2011-04-26 22:24:39 <Blitzboom> no, saing bitcoins is not loaning
2659 2011-04-26 22:24:43 <Blitzboom> and saving cash is not loaning either
2660 2011-04-26 22:24:45 <BlueMatt> gasteve: because the banks loan it out
2661 2011-04-26 22:24:51 <ArtForzZz> in a inflationary system it makes sense to invest in operations that produce less value that they consume, as long as their loss is less than the loss caused by inflation... somehow that doesn't sound very healthy
2662 2011-04-26 22:24:56 <gasteve> so, saving bitcoin is investing in the bitcoin economy
2663 2011-04-26 22:24:58 <lfm> oh hoarding btc is not investing true
2664 2011-04-26 22:25:01 <Kiba> in a deflationary system
2665 2011-04-26 22:25:07 <Kiba> the most profitable companies survive
2666 2011-04-26 22:25:13 <Kiba> the least profitable get eaten
2667 2011-04-26 22:25:14 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2668 2011-04-26 22:25:20 <gasteve> hoarding (aka saving) bitcoins most certainly is investing
2669 2011-04-26 22:25:21 <Kiba> so deflation actually increase efficency
2670 2011-04-26 22:25:23 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: your inflation requires exponential growth of the economy
2671 2011-04-26 22:25:28 <Kiba> in an inflationary environment
2672 2011-04-26 22:25:38 <Blitzboom> and it encourages short term thinking
2673 2011-04-26 22:25:41 <Kiba> less profitable companies can survive because the accounting is cooked by inflation
2674 2011-04-26 22:25:42 <gasteve> ArtForzZz: great point!!
2675 2011-04-26 22:25:48 brunner has joined
2676 2011-04-26 22:25:53 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: and how does an economy grow in a deflationary economy?
2677 2011-04-26 22:25:56 <Kiba> nominally, it looks profitable
2678 2011-04-26 22:25:56 <BlueMatt> you still havnt explained that
2679 2011-04-26 22:26:00 <Kiba> but in reality, it is not.
2680 2011-04-26 22:26:07 <Blitzboom> by being more productive, BlueMatt
2681 2011-04-26 22:26:10 <BlueMatt> no, inflationary based economy ISNT good
2682 2011-04-26 22:26:19 <Kiba> deflation cut out unproductive companies
2683 2011-04-26 22:26:19 <BlueMatt> but its better than deflation
2684 2011-04-26 22:26:26 <ArtForzZz> whats the saying again? "only idiots and economists believe in infinite exponential growth" ? ;)
2685 2011-04-26 22:26:29 <Kiba> these unproductive assets get absorbed by productive companies
2686 2011-04-26 22:26:33 <BlueMatt> but it means the economy doesnt grow
2687 2011-04-26 22:26:45 <Kiba> ArtForzZz: Inifnite exponentional growth good. Fake growth is not good.
2688 2011-04-26 22:26:47 <BlueMatt> it shrinks because people arent investing
2689 2011-04-26 22:26:57 <Kiba> people will always  spend, BlueMatt
2690 2011-04-26 22:27:05 <orzo> deflation isn't good either
2691 2011-04-26 22:27:07 <BlueMatt> Kiba: but they will save more than they spend
2692 2011-04-26 22:27:13 <Kiba> beside, we're talking about an economy that is becoming more productive
2693 2011-04-26 22:27:24 <Kiba> BlueMatt: they will always spend it sooner or later
2694 2011-04-26 22:27:33 <Kiba> the horizon is lengthened to years out
2695 2011-04-26 22:27:52 <gasteve> perpetual motion machines are good too
2696 2011-04-26 22:27:56 <Kiba> we  don't save for the sake of saving, BlueMatt
2697 2011-04-26 22:27:57 <BlueMatt> that doesnt mean the economy grows...it just means people spend
2698 2011-04-26 22:28:02 <gasteve> (too bad they don't exist)
2699 2011-04-26 22:28:02 <BlueMatt> Kiba: I know that
2700 2011-04-26 22:28:03 <ArtForzZz> gasteve: meh, I want maxwells demon.
2701 2011-04-26 22:28:29 <Blitzboom> BlueMatt: what exactly is the problem with deflation? hoarding?
2702 2011-04-26 22:28:36 <Kiba> BlueMatt: we might  as well dig trenches and get paid for it. That's spending
2703 2011-04-26 22:28:39 <Elrond> Okay, getting sleep.
2704 2011-04-26 22:28:43 Elrond has left ()
2705 2011-04-26 22:28:45 <Kiba> there's a big difference  between productive spending and wasteful spending
2706 2011-04-26 22:28:48 <Blitzboom> and if so, what’s the problem with people saving their money?
2707 2011-04-26 22:28:52 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: the problem is that banks have little incentive to loan
2708 2011-04-26 22:29:01 <BlueMatt> and if they dont, savings become worthless
2709 2011-04-26 22:29:04 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2710 2011-04-26 22:29:14 <Blitzboom> wtf logics is that
2711 2011-04-26 22:29:20 <Kiba> spending for the sake of spending does not an economy make
2712 2011-04-26 22:29:30 <ArtForzZz> Kiba++
2713 2011-04-26 22:29:33 <BlueMatt> companies need to be ridiculously profitable to get a loan
2714 2011-04-26 22:29:36 <BlueMatt> Kiba: I agree
2715 2011-04-26 22:29:40 <BlueMatt> but its better than deflation
2716 2011-04-26 22:29:43 lfm has quit (Quit: later)
2717 2011-04-26 22:29:54 <Blitzboom> you have to save to invest. /topic
2718 2011-04-26 22:29:58 <Kiba> BlueMatt: and deflation only allows the most profitable company to survive
2719 2011-04-26 22:30:10 <Kiba> through the bankruptcy process, they can buy dead companies
2720 2011-04-26 22:30:15 <Kiba> and put their assets to good use
2721 2011-04-26 22:30:16 <phantomcircuit> deflation is better for the economy but worse for the currency
2722 2011-04-26 22:30:17 <BlueMatt> Kiba: which shrinks an economy
2723 2011-04-26 22:30:33 <molecular> Blitzboom, that would mean people only invest if they believe in the investment being fruitful... no so bad, is it?
2724 2011-04-26 22:30:39 <Blitzboom> phantomcircuit: velocity of money?
2725 2011-04-26 22:30:48 <Kiba> BlueMatt: they are inefficent companies. they should be eliminated
2726 2011-04-26 22:30:56 <Blitzboom> molecular: yes. shit investments get fucked
2727 2011-04-26 22:30:56 <molecular> kiba: yes!
2728 2011-04-26 22:30:57 amiller has joined
2729 2011-04-26 22:31:04 <Blitzboom> we have TOO many investments
2730 2011-04-26 22:31:04 <BlueMatt> Kiba: to an extent, so you want a world of monopolies?
2731 2011-04-26 22:31:06 <Blitzboom> too many bubbles
2732 2011-04-26 22:31:10 <Blitzboom> too many experiments
2733 2011-04-26 22:31:14 <gasteve> this deflation debate is tiring...it'll be nice when everyone figures it out and we stop having to have the debate
2734 2011-04-26 22:31:16 <ArtForzZz> BlueMatt: false dichotomy
2735 2011-04-26 22:31:18 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2736 2011-04-26 22:31:25 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: how so?
2737 2011-04-26 22:31:39 <phantomcircuit> Blitzboom, velocity of money is a measure of how many people are included in the economy, it doesnt say shit about  how much the economy produces
2738 2011-04-26 22:31:47 <orzo> sorry, i imagine so, gasteve.  I brought it up but im new to bitcoin
2739 2011-04-26 22:31:50 <Kiba> if a company is profitable, it's probably because the consumers like their product
2740 2011-04-26 22:32:00 <Blitzboom> phantomcircuit: yes, i mean your "worse for the currency" part
2741 2011-04-26 22:32:00 <ArtForzZz> so you can only have inefficient companies or monopolies? nothign else?
2742 2011-04-26 22:32:06 <phantomcircuit> Blitzboom, yes
2743 2011-04-26 22:32:25 <Blitzboom> so i agree
2744 2011-04-26 22:32:27 <BlueMatt> In any case, bitcoin has other problems for backing an economy
2745 2011-04-26 22:32:41 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, like always needing a computer right by you
2746 2011-04-26 22:32:46 <Kiba> In any case, your thinking is insane and unsound
2747 2011-04-26 22:32:59 <molecular> phantomcircuit, ac omputer? like a cell-phone?
2748 2011-04-26 22:33:08 <Kiba> Go ask Intel and other companies
2749 2011-04-26 22:33:13 <Kiba> they always getting by
2750 2011-04-26 22:33:14 <Blitzboom> Kiba: sounds like the description of keynesianism
2751 2011-04-26 22:33:19 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that too
2752 2011-04-26 22:33:22 <phantomcircuit> molecular, and you'll always have a cell signal and always have power?
2753 2011-04-26 22:33:22 <Kiba> the hunger for more efficent computers are insatiable
2754 2011-04-26 22:33:33 <orzo> bitcoins have no inherent value, people say its not a fiat currency, which might be technically true, but the essential property of a fiat currency is that it has no inherent value, is it not?
2755 2011-04-26 22:33:41 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
2756 2011-04-26 22:33:45 tg has joined
2757 2011-04-26 22:33:52 <BlueMatt> orzo: in its basic sense, it is a fiat currency
2758 2011-04-26 22:33:56 <ArtForzZz> orzo: depends on your definition of fiat currency
2759 2011-04-26 22:33:59 <BlueMatt> but there are other problems
2760 2011-04-26 22:34:02 <Kiba> the essential propery of a fiat currency is that it exists not on the merit of the market but by the government
2761 2011-04-26 22:34:04 <Blitzboom> fiat = government-enforced
2762 2011-04-26 22:34:05 <ArtForzZz> it is and at the same time isn't
2763 2011-04-26 22:34:13 <molecular> phantomcircuit, true... sealed keys for coins for these cases, then, or paper-currency backed by bitcoin
2764 2011-04-26 22:34:17 <ArtForzZz> normal use of fiat currency = created by government fiat
2765 2011-04-26 22:34:17 <orzo> i dont think bitcoin is fundamentally different than fiat currencies except that it is not managed via a central bank
2766 2011-04-26 22:34:34 <Blitzboom> orzo: of course it is
2767 2011-04-26 22:34:35 <Kiba> Orzo, bitcoin got its value through market force, not regulations
2768 2011-04-26 22:34:35 <molecular> orzo, and has no inflation
2769 2011-04-26 22:34:37 <ArtForzZz> = bernanke can just QE a few more trillion into existance on a whim
2770 2011-04-26 22:34:38 <phantomcircuit> molecular, paper-currency backed by bitcoin? actually i like it
2771 2011-04-26 22:34:39 <gasteve> part of the problem is that everyone wants to see everyone in terms of a single currency...if you take the view that all contracts (i.e. loans) have to be made in terms of a single currency, then yeah, you might have a problem...but nothing says you have to make loans in terms of bitcoins...if you fear bitcoins will rise in value (because the bitcoin economy is growing), take a loan in terms of the price of a gallon of milk, or a loaf of bread,
2772 2011-04-26 22:34:39 <gasteve> something else
2773 2011-04-26 22:34:41 <Blitzboom> bitcoin is like gold
2774 2011-04-26 22:34:46 <Blitzboom> just without intrinsic value
2775 2011-04-26 22:34:53 <Blitzboom> but better properties
2776 2011-04-26 22:35:09 <Blitzboom> "you cannot do anything with them but trade them"
2777 2011-04-26 22:35:15 <Blitzboom> that was a criticism of bitcoin :D
2778 2011-04-26 22:35:20 <molecular> phantomcircuit, bitcoin is more like online gold than an online currency
2779 2011-04-26 22:35:22 <BlueMatt> that is stupid
2780 2011-04-26 22:35:28 xlogik has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
2781 2011-04-26 22:35:33 <Blitzboom> yeah. why else would i need a currency?
2782 2011-04-26 22:35:47 <Blitzboom> for intrinsic value i use carrots
2783 2011-04-26 22:35:54 <BlueMatt> who doesnt at this point?
2784 2011-04-26 22:35:58 <ArtForzZz> yep, carrots ftw!
2785 2011-04-26 22:36:00 <phantomcircuit> molecular, yes
2786 2011-04-26 22:36:45 <ArtForzZz> btw, is that the first official bitcoin meme?
2787 2011-04-26 22:36:52 <BlueMatt> probably
2788 2011-04-26 22:36:54 <molecular> what?
2789 2011-04-26 22:37:02 <Kiba> no
2790 2011-04-26 22:37:06 <Kiba> satoshi is the first
2791 2011-04-26 22:37:07 <edcba> what about the socks ?
2792 2011-04-26 22:37:08 <orzo> Kiba: don't you sort of overestimate the power of "regulation" to create value?  I think the main currencies today are quite influenced by the market as it is... not a big difference here
2793 2011-04-26 22:37:08 <Blitzboom> what about alpaca sock crypto-terrorists?
2794 2011-04-26 22:37:12 <ArtForzZz> right
2795 2011-04-26 22:37:15 <ArtForzZz> alpaca socks
2796 2011-04-26 22:37:39 <molecular> Blitzboom, thanks, I invented that and it's "alpa-sock-wearing crypto-terrorists"
2797 2011-04-26 22:37:45 <Kiba> alpaca sock wearing cryptoterrorist
2798 2011-04-26 22:37:58 <Blitzboom> hehe
2799 2011-04-26 22:37:59 <Kiba> who is satoshi?
2800 2011-04-26 22:38:09 <Kiba> carrotcoins
2801 2011-04-26 22:38:09 <molecular> some made-up guy
2802 2011-04-26 22:38:15 <orzo> i always thought crypto currency would look more like the ripple idea
2803 2011-04-26 22:38:36 <orzo> where anyone can issue tradable promises based on reputation
2804 2011-04-26 22:38:50 <ArtForzZz> problem with ripple is imo it's nonintuitive trust model
2805 2011-04-26 22:38:52 <phantomcircuit> orzo, too complicated
2806 2011-04-26 22:38:53 <molecular> although maybe I like "alpaca sock waring crypto-hippies" better
2807 2011-04-26 22:38:57 <gasteve> orzo, you still need something of value to be the basis for ripple debt
2808 2011-04-26 22:39:11 <ArtForzZz> cryptoterrorist... I like it
2809 2011-04-26 22:39:26 <molecular> well, you better, cause you'll be called one ;)
2810 2011-04-26 22:39:45 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2811 2011-04-26 22:39:47 <Blitzboom> i prefer cryptocrat, ArtForzZz. in my dreams of bitcoin riches
2812 2011-04-26 22:39:49 <gasteve> ripple and bitcoins are very different things (and could be complementary to each other)
2813 2011-04-26 22:39:58 <ArtForzZz> just the general insanity of the term
2814 2011-04-26 22:40:45 <ArtForzZz> try coming up with a way of spreading fear in the general public ... by using encryption
2815 2011-04-26 22:41:36 <molecular> i think the rising of encrypted network traffic could very well induce fear in circles that like to use the word "terrorist"
2816 2011-04-26 22:41:39 <ArtForzZz> and yes, looks like nowadays "terrorist" is the new "communist"
2817 2011-04-26 22:41:48 <molecular> yes
2818 2011-04-26 22:41:55 <Blitzboom> indeed
2819 2011-04-26 22:42:06 Incitatus has joined
2820 2011-04-26 22:42:17 <phantomcircuit> the irony being that if the people here wanted to be terrorists im sure we could come up with something worse than btc
2821 2011-04-26 22:42:28 <orzo> if i ran a few bitcoin nodes on an isolated net, would they make any coins?
2822 2011-04-26 22:42:42 <ArtForzZz> as in, a term so overused it completely loses it's original meaning
2823 2011-04-26 22:42:43 <Kiba> phantomcircuit: shootdown civilians at airport security lines
2824 2011-04-26 22:42:44 <molecular> phantomcircuit, I'm not so sure. bitcoin can be quite a nightmare for some people
2825 2011-04-26 22:42:44 <BlueMatt> Orbixx: no
2826 2011-04-26 22:42:47 <ArtForzZz> -'
2827 2011-04-26 22:42:49 <BlueMatt> orzo: no
2828 2011-04-26 22:42:50 <Kiba> with machine guns
2829 2011-04-26 22:42:55 <Kiba> there are lot of long lines
2830 2011-04-26 22:42:55 <Orbixx> ?
2831 2011-04-26 22:42:57 <BlueMatt> they have to be connected to the bitcoin network to mine
2832 2011-04-26 22:43:02 <BlueMatt> Orbixx: sorry, tab fail
2833 2011-04-26 22:43:09 <phantomcircuit> molecular, lol
2834 2011-04-26 22:43:16 <orzo> what if i had a hundred bitcoin nodes isolated from the rest of you
2835 2011-04-26 22:43:17 sabalaba has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2836 2011-04-26 22:43:17 <Kiba> terrorists are ineffectual
2837 2011-04-26 22:43:23 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, psh id just pay a stripper to get naked in like
2838 2011-04-26 22:43:24 <orzo> dont i have my own bitcoin network?
2839 2011-04-26 22:43:27 <BlueMatt> orzo: you could make your own currency
2840 2011-04-26 22:43:29 <genjix> hey tcatm, around?
2841 2011-04-26 22:43:30 <Kiba> even the 9/11 attack death is not much compared to car accidents
2842 2011-04-26 22:43:31 <Blitzboom> satoshi will be regarded worse than bin laden if bitcoin is successful
2843 2011-04-26 22:43:34 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, the security mess would cost thousands of man hours waiting in line
2844 2011-04-26 22:43:58 <Blitzboom> imo trade is the basis of civilization
2845 2011-04-26 22:43:58 <Kiba> the waiting lines are tasty targets for terrorists
2846 2011-04-26 22:44:01 <molecular> that explains his privacy concerns
2847 2011-04-26 22:44:05 <Kiba> good thing real terrorists are too stupid to exploit it
2848 2011-04-26 22:44:16 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, lulz
2849 2011-04-26 22:44:35 <ArtForzZz> Kiba: as with pretty much real anything
2850 2011-04-26 22:45:16 <molecular> btw: I heard of plans that mtgox might allow trading in EUR? Looking at EUR/USD exchange rate it might make sense to keep mtgox balance in EUR
2851 2011-04-26 22:45:23 <orzo> is it possible to generate coins without accepting incomming connections, maybe some other bitcoin node acting as proxy?
2852 2011-04-26 22:45:35 <ArtForzZz> orzo: yes
2853 2011-04-26 22:45:42 <molecular> orzo: you can run a fully functional node with only outgoing connections
2854 2011-04-26 22:46:04 <molecular> it's not possible to generate coins using a cpu, though ;)
2855 2011-04-26 22:46:05 <ArtForzZz> my generating nodes are running behind network-facing nodes, and only connect to those
2856 2011-04-26 22:46:11 <ArtForzZz> all the big scary threats arent really that big and scary when you really look at them
2857 2011-04-26 22:46:24 <BlueMatt> orzo: all you need is a connection to the net a bunch of proxies would work fine
2858 2011-04-26 22:46:31 <molecular> the biggest threat is loss of trust
2859 2011-04-26 22:46:47 <orzo> threat to what
2860 2011-04-26 22:46:53 <molecular> to bitcoin
2861 2011-04-26 22:46:59 <ArtForzZz> yes
2862 2011-04-26 22:47:17 <ArtForzZz> as with any other currency
2863 2011-04-26 22:47:28 <molecular> if there is some attack... even if we survive it, it will damage trust in bitcoin
2864 2011-04-26 22:47:37 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2865 2011-04-26 22:47:42 <Kiba> molecular: as long as we survive
2866 2011-04-26 22:47:44 <Kiba> we will live
2867 2011-04-26 22:47:48 <molecular> yes
2868 2011-04-26 22:47:52 <Blitzboom> problem being that bitcoin is without tradition yet, ArtForzZz
2869 2011-04-26 22:47:54 <Kiba> and we'll win
2870 2011-04-26 22:47:56 <ArtForzZz> Kiba: yes, by definition :P
2871 2011-04-26 22:48:09 <Kiba> donna wanna lose? Live.
2872 2011-04-26 22:48:20 <ArtForzZz> generally if you survive, you live. :P
2873 2011-04-26 22:48:24 <Blitzboom> i mean, the introduction of the euro for instance wasn’t really something new …
2874 2011-04-26 22:48:27 <molecular> kiba: well stated
2875 2011-04-26 22:48:49 <Blitzboom> it just meant that more countries would participate and that the central bank would be somewhere else
2876 2011-04-26 22:49:22 <ArtForzZz> euro is imo doomed in the long term unless theres some major changes
2877 2011-04-26 22:49:51 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: I think most people agree with that one
2878 2011-04-26 22:49:52 <Kiba> so is the dollars
2879 2011-04-26 22:49:59 <ArtForzZz> yep
2880 2011-04-26 22:50:03 <BlueMatt> Kiba: yep, that too
2881 2011-04-26 22:50:05 <Blitzboom> i guess that applies to any fiat currency at the moment
2882 2011-04-26 22:50:20 <Kiba> they promise something to get political power
2883 2011-04-26 22:50:32 <Kiba> but they end up shooting themsleves in the foot several decade laters
2884 2011-04-26 22:50:32 amiller has joined
2885 2011-04-26 22:50:46 <ArtForzZz> yep
2886 2011-04-26 22:51:17 <molecular> did you guys see the forbes article? it'll print 9.5.2011, is that correct?
2887 2011-04-26 22:51:17 <ArtForzZz> politicians lie, banksters are greedy, news at 11. ;)
2888 2011-04-26 22:51:55 * Blitzboom will probably never experience a gold-backed currency
2889 2011-04-26 22:52:30 <orzo> if you turn off currency generation, is the bitcoin client cheap?  I ran one for a bit and it used all my cpu, but i had -gen  enabled
2890 2011-04-26 22:52:34 <ArtForzZz> molecular: yes
2891 2011-04-26 22:52:40 <BlueMatt> orzo: yep
2892 2011-04-26 22:52:43 <ArtForzZz> orzo: yup
2893 2011-04-26 22:52:43 <BlueMatt> pretty cheap
2894 2011-04-26 22:52:53 <orzo> are ther smart phone clients?
2895 2011-04-26 22:53:05 <ArtForzZz> well, cheap for a modern PC
2896 2011-04-26 22:53:11 <molecular> orzo: it'll still use a lot of cpu while initially loading the blockchain
2897 2011-04-26 22:53:13 <Kiba> bandwidth not so hard
2898 2011-04-26 22:53:34 <BlueMatt> will get better with thin clients
2899 2011-04-26 22:53:36 noagendamarket has joined
2900 2011-04-26 22:53:40 <molecular> orzo: we talked earlier on #bitcoin, right?
2901 2011-04-26 22:53:45 <eps> forbes article?
2902 2011-04-26 22:53:52 <ArtForzZz> eps: yea
2903 2011-04-26 22:53:54 <molecular> http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0509/technology-psilocybin-bitcoins-gavin-andresen-crypto-currency.html
2904 2011-04-26 22:53:56 <eps> can we expect another rally after that?
2905 2011-04-26 22:53:58 Greek_o_nikos has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2906 2011-04-26 22:54:01 <orzo> well, i envision this, two friends have smart phones, can they casually perform transactions over their handhelds?
2907 2011-04-26 22:54:03 <molecular> not sure
2908 2011-04-26 22:54:07 <molecular> it's print readers, after all
2909 2011-04-26 22:54:19 <molecular> orzo: yeah, using "bump"
2910 2011-04-26 22:54:21 <orzo> molecular: i don't think so
2911 2011-04-26 22:54:33 <orzo> how much earlier?
2912 2011-04-26 22:54:40 <ArtForzZz> at least we shouldnt get thrown off WP for non-notability anymore :P
2913 2011-04-26 22:54:48 <molecular> ealier? you mean "how much longer"?
2914 2011-04-26 22:54:51 <BlueMatt> yep
2915 2011-04-26 22:55:11 <orzo> [18:49] <molecular> orzo: we talked earlier on #bitcoin, right? <-- I don't think so.  How much earlier?
2916 2011-04-26 22:55:18 <molecular> ah, ok
2917 2011-04-26 22:55:48 <molecular> orzo, ah, sorry, mixed you up with another rookie ;)
2918 2011-04-26 22:55:49 <orzo> perhpas i talked to you months ago..., but i dont think within this week
2919 2011-04-26 22:55:57 <molecular> no, it was rokr1
2920 2011-04-26 22:57:50 <molecular> orzo, about 4-6 weeks ago, there we're some "thin client" in the making. if you search in android market you will also find a functional testnet bitcoin app
2921 2011-04-26 22:58:23 <molecular> the current idea is to have qr-code to be able to scan receiving address
2922 2011-04-26 22:58:31 <eps> the forbes article has a surprisingly optimistic tone
2923 2011-04-26 22:58:35 tabsa has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756])
2924 2011-04-26 22:58:36 <molecular> yeah!
2925 2011-04-26 22:58:42 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2926 2011-04-26 22:58:43 <ArtForzZz> yep
2927 2011-04-26 22:59:07 <ArtForzZz> I was expecting something a lot more negative
2928 2011-04-26 22:59:24 <molecular> me too, or at least more "balanced"
2929 2011-04-26 22:59:35 <ArtForzZz> but imo the basic idea is right, with p2p, once the idea is out there, it's pretty much impossible to stop
2930 2011-04-26 22:59:36 <molecular> wonder when "der spiegel" will follow
2931 2011-04-26 22:59:52 <ArtForzZz> I expect heise to pick it up first
2932 2011-04-26 23:00:00 <molecular> in print?
2933 2011-04-26 23:00:29 <ArtForzZz> dunno
2934 2011-04-26 23:00:35 <ArtForzZz> just a feeling
2935 2011-04-26 23:00:45 <molecular> yeah, likely they will catch on first
2936 2011-04-26 23:01:13 <molecular> but don't underestimage the spiegel ;) (while the technical articles are sometimes.., well..., oversimplifying)
2937 2011-04-26 23:01:22 <ArtForzZz> true
2938 2011-04-26 23:01:57 <molecular> a bitcoin logo on der spiegel titel would make my day, that's for sure
2939 2011-04-26 23:02:06 <ArtForzZz> rofl, true
2940 2011-04-26 23:02:13 <Blitzboom> wait, heise has a print version?
2941 2011-04-26 23:02:25 <ArtForzZz> they have several print mags
2942 2011-04-26 23:02:29 <orzo> suppose bitcoin is subject to a deflationary spiral after becomming widespread, what's the likely result?  A new crypto currency essentially the same as bitcoin?
2943 2011-04-26 23:02:30 <molecular> they have quite a lot of magazines
2944 2011-04-26 23:02:32 <ArtForzZz> most notably C't
2945 2011-04-26 23:02:33 <Blitzboom> that’s new to me
2946 2011-04-26 23:02:51 <Blitzboom> thought they were purely online
2947 2011-04-26 23:02:54 <molecular> they probably existed in print before they existed online
2948 2011-04-26 23:02:58 <ArtForzZz> yep
2949 2011-04-26 23:03:07 <molecular> I should be old enough to know ;)
2950 2011-04-26 23:03:14 <Blitzboom> heise would indeed be nice
2951 2011-04-26 23:03:15 <BlueMatt> orzo: Id bet on no cryptocurrency
2952 2011-04-26 23:03:32 <ArtForzZz> ?
2953 2011-04-26 23:03:34 <BlueMatt> anything would be nice
2954 2011-04-26 23:03:35 <Blitzboom> wtf is deflationary spiral
2955 2011-04-26 23:03:46 <orzo> heh
2956 2011-04-26 23:03:54 <orzo> Blitzboom: great depression?
2957 2011-04-26 23:03:56 <Blitzboom> you start hoarding => money lies there unproductive
2958 2011-04-26 23:03:56 <molecular> Blitzboom, everyone holds on to their bitcoins => value keeps rising
2959 2011-04-26 23:04:05 <noagendamarket> something economists use to describe bitcoin ?
2960 2011-04-26 23:04:13 <Blitzboom> => economy shrinks => value of BTC _SINKS_
2961 2011-04-26 23:04:14 <ArtForzZz> thing is, bitcoin showed that a p2p currncy can at least in theory work, even if it fails, people will change things and try again until something works
2962 2011-04-26 23:04:14 <molecular> it's a common objection
2963 2011-04-26 23:04:15 <BlueMatt> molecular: not necessarily
2964 2011-04-26 23:04:16 <Blitzboom> so there is a feedback loop
2965 2011-04-26 23:04:24 <Blitzboom> where is the spiral?
2966 2011-04-26 23:04:24 stamit has joined
2967 2011-04-26 23:04:35 <ArtForzZz> same as with pretty much p2p anything
2968 2011-04-26 23:04:51 <Blitzboom> i fail to see a spiral
2969 2011-04-26 23:04:55 <BlueMatt> deflationary spiral might not 100% happen, but honestly, bitcoin will never (/should never) back an economy anyway
2970 2011-04-26 23:04:58 <molecular> Blitzboom, why does the economy shrink?
2971 2011-04-26 23:04:59 <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: how many hases does it take to get to the center of a tootsiepop?
2972 2011-04-26 23:05:15 <Blitzboom> molecular: the economy shrinks because 1) people are not spending money and 2) are not investing their money
2973 2011-04-26 23:05:27 <ArtForzZz> Diablo-D3: can I have some of that stuff?
2974 2011-04-26 23:05:32 <Blitzboom> therefore in absolute terms, hoarding will decrease your savings
2975 2011-04-26 23:05:44 <Blitzboom> so wtf is this spiral myth
2976 2011-04-26 23:05:56 <Blitzboom> or is my logic flawed?
2977 2011-04-26 23:05:59 <ArtForzZz> Blitzboom: no clue
2978 2011-04-26 23:06:09 <ArtForzZz> I can't quite see the logic either
2979 2011-04-26 23:06:13 <orzo> some people thin bitcoin is immune to it or that it wont matter, i think not, but i'm no economist expert really.
2980 2011-04-26 23:06:16 <ArtForzZz> but then I'm not a economist
2981 2011-04-26 23:06:20 <molecular> Blitzboom, I'm not so sure about the economy shrinking. why would people not spend money. it just says that there is a tendency to hoard.
2982 2011-04-26 23:06:41 <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: seriously though, 1 diff block, how many hashes
2983 2011-04-26 23:06:43 <Blitzboom> ArtForzZz: i think economists are subject to brainwash
2984 2011-04-26 23:06:53 <TD> japan in the 90s is an example of a stagnant economy with deflation
2985 2011-04-26 23:07:00 <ArtForzZz> Blitzboom: I doubt it
2986 2011-04-26 23:07:05 <TD> however it's not really clear how much of the stagnation came from deflation vs just structural issues
2987 2011-04-26 23:07:26 <TD> if there's one thing i do agree with though, it's that economics is barely a science. it's at about the same level medicine was at in the 16th century
2988 2011-04-26 23:07:29 <TD> leeches for all!
2989 2011-04-26 23:07:31 <Blitzboom> molecular: i don’t see any problem with a tendency to save
2990 2011-04-26 23:07:37 <BlueMatt> TD: so true
2991 2011-04-26 23:07:51 <BlueMatt> economists are just guessing anyway
2992 2011-04-26 23:08:09 <ArtForzZz> My guess is it's just the same kind of mostly BS any soft science produces
2993 2011-04-26 23:08:18 <BlueMatt> speaking of which...I really should be studying for my econ exam in a week :(
2994 2011-04-26 23:08:18 <Blitzboom> ^
2995 2011-04-26 23:09:02 <eps> just write "bitcoins bitcoins bitcoins..." for every answer
2996 2011-04-26 23:09:13 <ArtForzZz> eps: badger badger badger
2997 2011-04-26 23:09:19 stamit has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2998 2011-04-26 23:09:22 <BlueMatt> eps: sadly that doesnt get me a diploma :(
2999 2011-04-26 23:09:23 <Diablo-D3> gasp
3000 2011-04-26 23:09:30 <Diablo-D3> I asked art a question he cant answer
3001 2011-04-26 23:09:31 <BlueMatt> though I am planning on writing 42s for each math problem I dont get
3002 2011-04-26 23:09:46 <eps> heh
3003 2011-04-26 23:09:47 <ArtForzZz> Diablo-D3: you axed a questn?
3004 2011-04-26 23:09:50 <Blitzboom> i thought you were studying computer science?
3005 2011-04-26 23:09:59 <Diablo-D3> [07:02:31] <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: seriously though, 1 diff block, how many hashes
3006 2011-04-26 23:10:03 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: will be...still in high school
3007 2011-04-26 23:10:06 <BlueMatt> well for another 3 wekks
3008 2011-04-26 23:10:08 <ArtForzZz> cs, econ, it's all just numbers anyways!
3009 2011-04-26 23:10:10 <molecular> Diablo-D3 asked ArtForzZz a question he didnt hear ;)
3010 2011-04-26 23:10:11 <Blitzboom> ah, ok
3011 2011-04-26 23:10:11 <sipa> 2^48/65535
3012 2011-04-26 23:10:12 <BlueMatt> weeks*
3013 2011-04-26 23:10:15 Cusipzzz has joined
3014 2011-04-26 23:10:17 <ArtForzZz> yep
3015 2011-04-26 23:10:18 <sipa> happy now, Diablo-D3?
3016 2011-04-26 23:10:26 <BlueMatt> higher levels == econ, comp sci, math, physics :(*
3017 2011-04-26 23:10:30 <BlueMatt> gonna fail them all
3018 2011-04-26 23:10:37 <BlueMatt> well prob not comp sci :)
3019 2011-04-26 23:10:45 <Diablo-D3> I thought it was 2^32 but it sounded too easy =/
3020 2011-04-26 23:10:57 <sipa> k
3021 2011-04-26 23:11:04 <Blitzboom> try bribing your teacher with bitcoins
3022 2011-04-26 23:11:07 <molecular> 2^48/2^16 = 2^32
3023 2011-04-26 23:11:16 <Diablo-D3> molecular: thatsthejoke.jpg
3024 2011-04-26 23:11:22 <molecular> oh
3025 2011-04-26 23:11:24 <sipa> almost 2^32, the target corresponding to difficulty one is 0x00000000FFFF000000000...
3026 2011-04-26 23:11:26 <ArtForzZz> 2**48/(2**16-1) = 2**32+change
3027 2011-04-26 23:11:27 * molecular slow tonight
3028 2011-04-26 23:11:40 <BlueMatt> Blitzboom: lol, now that just might work...
3029 2011-04-26 23:11:48 <ArtForzZz> rmmm.. actually that sounds wrong
3030 2011-04-26 23:11:51 <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: no one will notice if I just calculate them as 2**32, right?
3031 2011-04-26 23:12:09 <Diablo-D3> because diff 1 == any block that comes out as H == 0
3032 2011-04-26 23:12:10 <orzo> what if some rich guy was able to run the majority of bitcoin nodes and they were rogue in his favor. surely he'd be able to manipulate the currency. no?
3033 2011-04-26 23:12:15 <Diablo-D3> and H is an int, which is 2**32
3034 2011-04-26 23:12:22 <ArtForzZz> Diablo-D3: nope
3035 2011-04-26 23:12:41 <Diablo-D3> so theres a 1 in 2**32 chance the block is H == 0
3036 2011-04-26 23:12:43 <ArtForzZz> diff 1 target = 0x00000000ffff00000....
3037 2011-04-26 23:13:02 <ArtForzZz> so a H == 0; G > 0xFFFF0000 hash fails diff 1
3038 2011-04-26 23:13:04 <molecular> orzo, I suggest you google around a bit for "bitcoin attack" or something or look in the forums at bitcoin.org/smf. your fear has been discussed
3039 2011-04-26 23:13:13 <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: but then I have to do more math =/
3040 2011-04-26 23:13:20 skyewm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3041 2011-04-26 23:13:28 * ArtForzZz hands diablo a can of pity
3042 2011-04-26 23:13:36 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3043 2011-04-26 23:13:52 <Diablo-D3> if I code a pool that just does H == 0, will it actually effect anything?
3044 2011-04-26 23:13:57 m00p has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3045 2011-04-26 23:14:14 <ArtForzZz> no, thats just diff not-quite-1
3046 2011-04-26 23:15:10 <ArtForzZz> you'll probably have to account for it in "how many shares in a block on average"
3047 2011-04-26 23:15:30 <Diablo-D3> well thats another thing
3048 2011-04-26 23:15:40 <Diablo-D3> how do I transform current diff?
3049 2011-04-26 23:15:48 <ArtForzZz> from what to what?
3050 2011-04-26 23:15:49 <Diablo-D3> what does the diff actually mean in terms of diff 1?
3051 2011-04-26 23:16:11 <ArtForzZz> difficulty really is just diff 1 target / current target
3052 2011-04-26 23:16:29 <Diablo-D3> so how do I derive, say, constant share value?
3053 2011-04-26 23:16:31 <ArtForzZz> target is the actual value, we just use difficulty because it's more convenient
3054 2011-04-26 23:17:15 <sipa> constant share value = 50BTC * 65535 / 2^48
3055 2011-04-26 23:17:27 <sipa> wait
3056 2011-04-26 23:17:31 <sipa> never mind :S
3057 2011-04-26 23:17:33 <Diablo-D3> sipa: :|
3058 2011-04-26 23:17:44 <sipa> just 50BTC / difficulty
3059 2011-04-26 23:17:44 <ArtForzZz> avg hashes per block = 2**256 / (target + 1)
3060 2011-04-26 23:18:09 <ArtForzZz> one H==0 "share" = 2**32 hashes
3061 2011-04-26 23:19:00 <sipa> one real share = 2**32 + 65537 hashes
3062 2011-04-26 23:19:40 <ArtForzZz> really?
3063 2011-04-26 23:19:56 <sipa> approximately
3064 2011-04-26 23:20:12 <sipa> 2^32 + 65537.000015259...
3065 2011-04-26 23:20:33 <molecular> nice quote: "Isn’t every fiat currency a bubble?"
3066 2011-04-26 23:20:42 <ArtForzZz> yeah
3067 2011-04-26 23:22:37 <ArtForzZz> so there's about 0.001526% more H==0 shares than diff=1 shares
3068 2011-04-26 23:22:55 <BlueMatt> molecular: yes, yes it is
3069 2011-04-26 23:23:44 dreamer_ has joined
3070 2011-04-26 23:25:06 KBme has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3071 2011-04-26 23:25:18 <luke-jr> so anyone here want to buy some FRESH coins? :P
3072 2011-04-26 23:25:42 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I think this was an idea you had once…
3073 2011-04-26 23:26:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: fresh coins? no I commented on that thread saying it was stupid IMHO
3074 2011-04-26 23:26:41 <luke-jr> haha
3075 2011-04-26 23:26:44 <luke-jr> hmm
3076 2011-04-26 23:27:02 <luke-jr> is there a patch to allow for multiple concurrent JSON-RPC requests by any chance? ^^;;
3077 2011-04-26 23:27:36 <luke-jr> it looks like having a JSON-RPC request make a loopback JSON-RPC request is … a bad idea
3078 2011-04-26 23:28:17 <molecular> BlueMatt, yes "it's a nice quote", or yes "every fiat currency is a bubble"?
3079 2011-04-26 23:28:29 <ArtForzZz> it's json-rpc requests all the way down.
3080 2011-04-26 23:28:36 <molecular> lol
3081 2011-04-26 23:28:45 <BlueMatt> molecular: nice quote and 1/2 sarcastic yes to the second
3082 2011-04-26 23:30:10 <Diablo-D3> [07:16:24] <molecular> nice quote: "Isn’t every fiat currency a bubble?"
3083 2011-04-26 23:30:21 <Diablo-D3> human society is a bubble.
3084 2011-04-26 23:31:18 KBme has joined
3085 2011-04-26 23:32:20 <molecular> Diablo-D3: <BlueMatt> molecular: yes, yes it is
3086 2011-04-26 23:33:17 <Diablo-D3> ArtForzZz: okay so.... divide 50 by ... difficulty?
3087 2011-04-26 23:33:20 <Diablo-D3> that doesnt sound right
3088 2011-04-26 23:33:50 <ArtForzZz> otehr way around
3089 2011-04-26 23:33:55 <ArtForzZz> 50 / difficulty
3090 2011-04-26 23:34:03 <Diablo-D3> isnt that what I said?
3091 2011-04-26 23:34:13 <ArtForzZz> right
3092 2011-04-26 23:35:10 <ArtForzZz> well, it's correct
3093 2011-04-26 23:36:33 validus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3094 2011-04-26 23:39:34 <ArtForzZz> so currently 2**32 hashes are worth about 54142 satoshi
3095 2011-04-26 23:39:46 <Diablo-D3> satoshi?
3096 2011-04-26 23:39:49 <ArtForzZz> yep
3097 2011-04-26 23:39:56 <BlueMatt> base units
3098 2011-04-26 23:39:57 <Diablo-D3> is that the new name for ubtc?
3099 2011-04-26 23:40:03 <ArtForzZz> easier than microcents
3100 2011-04-26 23:41:06 * Diablo-D3 renames his ubtc field to satoshi
3101 2011-04-26 23:41:19 <Diablo-D3> its still *10^8, right?
3102 2011-04-26 23:41:24 <ArtForzZz> yep
3103 2011-04-26 23:41:33 <ArtForzZz> 10**8 satoshi = 1 coin
3104 2011-04-26 23:41:43 <molecular> hmm, I saw argued that one satoshi should be the smallest unit, 0.00000001 BTC
3105 2011-04-26 23:41:47 <ArtForzZz> 10**6 satoshi = 1 cent
3106 2011-04-26 23:41:51 <ArtForzZz> it is
3107 2011-04-26 23:42:01 <molecular> like the idea
3108 2011-04-26 23:42:29 <ArtForzZz> also, I like the humor in naming the *smallest possible* unit after the creator
3109 2011-04-26 23:42:39 <molecular> "what it all comes down to"
3110 2011-04-26 23:42:49 <BlueMatt> ArtForzZz: he derserves some recognition, I think its fair
3111 2011-04-26 23:42:54 <molecular> definitely
3112 2011-04-26 23:42:55 <BlueMatt> deserves*
3113 2011-04-26 23:42:59 <ArtForzZz> yeah
3114 2011-04-26 23:43:11 <BlueMatt> actually alot more than some, but whatever
3115 2011-04-26 23:43:14 <lulzplzkthx> Can anyone tell me why the Bitcoin Client is listing my transactions out of order from the time?
3116 2011-04-26 23:43:28 <lulzplzkthx> It's only  one misplaced transaction
3117 2011-04-26 23:43:33 <lulzplzkthx> But I think there was one earlier as well.
3118 2011-04-26 23:43:38 <BlueMatt> block order?
3119 2011-04-26 23:43:48 <molecular> lulzplzkthx, in the gui or rpc?
3120 2011-04-26 23:44:17 <ArtForzZz> stupid q: does client list the time is first saw the tx or the bclok time for a received tx?
3121 2011-04-26 23:44:32 <ArtForzZz> if block time, those can be lower than prev blocks quite easily
3122 2011-04-26 23:44:41 <molecular> probably time first seen, because with 0 confirmations there's no other option
3123 2011-04-26 23:44:59 <ArtForzZz> as rules for block timestamps are rather relaxed
3124 2011-04-26 23:45:26 <molecular> it should just order by block #
3125 2011-04-26 23:46:55 <lulzplzkthx> gui molecular
3126 2011-04-26 23:47:03 <lulzplzkthx> and ArtForzZz they're sents, not received
3127 2011-04-26 23:47:53 BlueMatt has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3128 2011-04-26 23:48:08 <molecular> hm, there's stream sdk 2.4?
3129 2011-04-26 23:48:47 <ArtForzZz> molecular: yes
3130 2011-04-26 23:49:02 <ArtForzZz> except it's now called amd app
3131 2011-04-26 23:49:14 <molecular> shoudl I switch from 2.1?
3132 2011-04-26 23:49:30 <ArtForzZz> for 5xxx ? no
3133 2011-04-26 23:49:35 <molecular> 6970
3134 2011-04-26 23:49:54 <ArtForzZz> for 6xxx ? not much choice there, as 2.1 doesnt support those ans 2.2. and 2.3 suck
3135 2011-04-26 23:50:21 <Diablo-D3> 2.4
3136 2011-04-26 23:50:45 <molecular> arrh, 5970, sorry
3137 2011-04-26 23:51:42 <lulzplzkthx> I just got my first official Bitcoin. Balance: 1.02. Dang, I'm proud.
3138 2011-04-26 23:52:01 <lulzplzkthx> Hahaha
3139 2011-04-26 23:54:24 <noagendamarket> liberty reserve ranks highest in nigeria :)
3140 2011-04-26 23:56:04 DukeOfURL has joined
3141 2011-04-26 23:56:11 <ArtForzZz> yes, scammers like safe payment systems
3142 2011-04-26 23:56:16 <ArtForzZz> :P
3143 2011-04-26 23:56:30 <molecular> an hate chargeback
3144 2011-04-26 23:56:35 <ArtForzZz> yep
3145 2011-04-26 23:57:15 <ArtForzZz> thoguh I wonder why LR and friends isnt more popular in for virtual currency stuff