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   4 2011-05-13 00:01:55 <basic_ed> hey peoples. have started tinkering with mining on spare gpu on osx / macbook. am hoping to be able to use the NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GT for mining whilst doing my day to day work on the NVIDIA GeForce 9400M
   5 2011-05-13 00:02:01 directhex has joined
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   7 2011-05-13 00:02:17 <basic_ed> seems may be am not able to use both cards in the macbook simoultaneously
   8 2011-05-13 00:02:28 <basic_ed> hoping someone can confirm one way or another
   9 2011-05-13 00:02:34 <cosurgi> wtf @ mtgox ??
  10 2011-05-13 00:02:37 <grbgout> basic_ed: maybe try -mining
  11 2011-05-13 00:02:42 <cosurgi> ;;bc,mtgox
  12 2011-05-13 00:02:42 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.49,"low":5.22,"vol":31728,"buy":6.31,"sell":6.49,"last":6.3002}}
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  14 2011-05-13 00:03:06 <basic_ed> ah cool was not aware of that channel - not mentioned in the header for #bitcoin
  15 2011-05-13 00:03:09 <cosurgi> wtf....
  16 2011-05-13 00:03:10 <basic_ed> will check there thanks
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  19 2011-05-13 00:06:01 <directhex> ArtForz: it seems your opencl kernel is fairly popular (e.g. diablominer and poclbm use it as a minimum). but neither of them has a license attached to your code, nor any proper copyright for that matter. what's the proper way to redistribute it?
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  27 2011-05-13 00:13:07 <fabianhjr> MagicalTux: you there?
  28 2011-05-13 00:14:04 <gdoteof_home> fabianhjr: he is not in this chat
  29 2011-05-13 00:14:08 <gdoteof_home> try otc
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  32 2011-05-13 00:14:20 <fabianhjr> :/ ok, thanks
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  49 2011-05-13 00:29:38 <BlueMatt> yay, it compiles and seems complete to me :)
  50 2011-05-13 00:29:51 <BlueMatt> will test in the morning..."19 changed files with 1,505 additions and 85 deletions."
  51 2011-05-13 00:30:04 <BlueMatt> (oh shit, someone remind me to do translations of "Update password"
  52 2011-05-13 00:30:20 whoami is now known as afk!~lulzplzkt@76.226.185.192|lulzplzkthx
  53 2011-05-13 00:30:37 <BlueMatt> + a couple more mlocks() tomorrow
  54 2011-05-13 00:31:24 <_ape> does anyone know how to avoid the "worker is idle" message in poclbm?
  55 2011-05-13 00:31:27 <_ape> i get it after every share basically
  56 2011-05-13 00:31:32 <_ape> do i need to change the askrate or something
  57 2011-05-13 00:31:58 <_ape> miner is idle rather
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  61 2011-05-13 00:33:27 <fabianhjr> Llama is in charge of BitBills, right?
  62 2011-05-13 00:33:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: hey, I only lost by 2hr, 10 minutes :)
  63 2011-05-13 00:33:42 <_ape> same errors as this guy : http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1334.msg103072#msg103072
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  73 2011-05-13 00:45:09 <BlueMatt> anyone who speaks a plethora of languages: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=8099.0
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  79 2011-05-13 01:02:15 <RBecker> BlueMatt, I could run it through google translate for you :P
  80 2011-05-13 01:03:24 <F4C3> lol plethora of languages, i thought you were referring to scripting or programming languages
  81 2011-05-13 01:04:14 <BlueMatt> RBecker: thats what half of the copyright notices are...but Id like to ask first...
  82 2011-05-13 01:04:26 <RBecker> right
  83 2011-05-13 01:04:51 <BlueMatt> oh well, Im off to bed...lets see how many I get by morning
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  92 2011-05-13 01:21:03 <Raccoon> <Raccoon> some how we need to integrate bitcoin mining into the game Minecraft
  93 2011-05-13 01:21:36 <Raccoon> the game could include btc mining engine... distribute the effort, get 1 BTC every week or so in gameplay
  94 2011-05-13 01:21:51 <Raccoon> so you actually see BTC get uncovered as you mine
  95 2011-05-13 01:23:01 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc 2000000
  96 2011-05-13 01:23:04 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 2000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 3 days, 21 hours, 54 minutes, and 30 seconds
  97 2011-05-13 01:24:17 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 2000000
  98 2011-05-13 01:24:19 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 12.7784109684 BTC per day and 0.53243379035 BTC per hour.
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 104 2011-05-13 01:31:28 alkor has joined
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 106 2011-05-13 01:32:04 <andrew12> http://www.freshbooks.com/blog/2011/05/10/infographic-the-freelancers-game-of-life/
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 117 2011-05-13 01:39:52 Jere has joined
 118 2011-05-13 01:40:48 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,gen 700000
 119 2011-05-13 01:40:49 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 700000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 4.47244383894 BTC per day and 0.186351826622 BTC per hour.
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 123 2011-05-13 01:53:50 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 124 2011-05-13 01:55:19 zecco has joined
 125 2011-05-13 01:55:35 <zecco> BTC at $7!!!
 126 2011-05-13 01:56:32 Azelphur has joined
 127 2011-05-13 01:56:39 Cyde has joined
 128 2011-05-13 01:56:49 Aexoden has joined
 129 2011-05-13 01:56:49 <alystair> .... lol?
 130 2011-05-13 01:56:57 <alystair> tell me when it hits $100 :D
 131 2011-05-13 01:57:09 <zecco> end of month
 132 2011-05-13 01:57:15 Azelphur has left ()
 133 2011-05-13 01:57:22 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 134 2011-05-13 01:57:45 <alystair> I'm really curious to know when it will crash - guess it's when most people decide to 'cash out'? :P
 135 2011-05-13 01:57:57 * alystair shrugs again
 136 2011-05-13 01:59:10 <zecco> alystair: at $1500
 137 2011-05-13 01:59:15 blablaa has joined
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 139 2011-05-13 02:04:45 Teslah has joined
 140 2011-05-13 02:04:46 <gmaxwell> alystair: there are many people who want bitcoin to be successful for reasons entirely independant of the content of their wallets.
 141 2011-05-13 02:05:13 vorlov has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 142 2011-05-13 02:05:24 <gmaxwell> For example— if you want to do things which only work with low overhead online currency then you want bitcoin to do well.
 143 2011-05-13 02:06:08 <gmaxwell> Or if you want a widely tendered currency which isn't controlled by large banks and governments, but instead by a consensus protocol then you want bitcoin to be successful.
 144 2011-05-13 02:06:17 <gmaxwell> So those people aren't just going to "cash out"
 145 2011-05-13 02:06:57 <molecular> 7.25, the forbes effect
 146 2011-05-13 02:07:04 <gmaxwell> and if they were, they would have probably done so when it hit $1... considering that it was worth far less for a long time.
 147 2011-05-13 02:08:32 <molecular> hehe, bitcoin has doubled in one week, insane
 148 2011-05-13 02:10:00 theorbtwo has joined
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 150 2011-05-13 02:13:14 <zecco> correction ... BTC now at $7.40
 151 2011-05-13 02:14:47 <zecco> gmaxwell: agreed!
 152 2011-05-13 02:16:48 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: uh, did you turn LP off?
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 157 2011-05-13 02:18:57 <disq> is there any documentation on x-poll-ntime? (other than poclbm and pushpool sourcecode?)
 158 2011-05-13 02:19:24 sethsethseth has joined
 159 2011-05-13 02:21:03 <disq> s/poll/roll
 160 2011-05-13 02:23:01 zecco has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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 163 2011-05-13 02:26:57 <Raccoon> how do we convince Minecraft to use bitcoins
 164 2011-05-13 02:27:05 <Raccoon> so people can pay minecraft to buy/sell bitcoins
 165 2011-05-13 02:27:09 dissipate has joined
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 167 2011-05-13 02:30:13 Tril has joined
 168 2011-05-13 02:30:44 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r3a16dd9 / (4 files in 3 dirs):
 169 2011-05-13 02:30:44 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Updated nonce saturation to do 2^32 total, added forgotten l4j.ini file,
 170 2011-05-13 02:30:44 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: improved nonce handling for -v and/or -z - http://bit.ly/irvx8H
 171 2011-05-13 02:31:09 Kiba has joined
 172 2011-05-13 02:33:45 <jgarzik> disq: bitcoin source code
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 177 2011-05-13 02:39:19 <disq> jgarzik: thanks, i'll look it up tomorrow :)
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 192 2011-05-13 02:57:14 <tyran37> how come I have transactions with 0/unconfirmed that aren't listed at the top in the bitcoin client
 193 2011-05-13 02:57:48 lulzplzkthx is now known as afk!~lulzplzkt@76.226.185.192|lulzplzkthx
 194 2011-05-13 02:57:55 <ne0futur> check your OS system date ?
 195 2011-05-13 02:58:03 <ne0futur> sure you dont live in the past =?
 196 2011-05-13 02:58:07 <tyran37> no
 197 2011-05-13 02:58:12 alkor has joined
 198 2011-05-13 02:59:11 <tyran37> so far it has always sorted by # of confirmations
 199 2011-05-13 02:59:29 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: ?
 200 2011-05-13 02:59:33 Jere__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 201 2011-05-13 02:59:47 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: fixed
 202 2011-05-13 03:00:41 Stellar has quit (Quit: w00t)
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 204 2011-05-13 03:02:08 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: long poll thread isn't
 205 2011-05-13 03:02:17 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: err maybe it is nm
 206 2011-05-13 03:02:21 <jrmithdobbs> nope
 207 2011-05-13 03:02:34 <luke-jr> O.o
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 213 2011-05-13 03:17:16 <jrmithdobbs> kitty loves her new sauna room
 214 2011-05-13 03:17:20 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 215 2011-05-13 03:17:27 <jrmithdobbs> can't get her out of there
 216 2011-05-13 03:17:42 <gmaxwell> next week. "< jrmithdobbs> help! my cat has been sucked into a fan"
 217 2011-05-13 03:18:19 redengin has joined
 218 2011-05-13 03:18:29 <jrmithdobbs> nope my cases are closed
 219 2011-05-13 03:18:38 <jrmithdobbs> :)
 220 2011-05-13 03:21:13 jargon has joined
 221 2011-05-13 03:21:57 <jargon> Who's wants to see the work I did on the bitcoin audit thus far?
 222 2011-05-13 03:22:14 <jargon> I'm back from Detox and am ready to audit additional source
 223 2011-05-13 03:24:02 <jrmithdobbs> audit of what precisely?
 224 2011-05-13 03:24:12 <jrmithdobbs> also, not confidence inspiring statement
 225 2011-05-13 03:24:13 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 226 2011-05-13 03:25:08 <jargon> Github is retarded, it doesn't detect user zoom in-order to rescale borders
 227 2011-05-13 03:25:36 Stellar has joined
 228 2011-05-13 03:25:37 <jrmithdobbs> if that's your only complaint about github you have not used github enough
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 232 2011-05-13 03:28:46 gdoteof_home has left ()
 233 2011-05-13 03:28:53 <doublec> jrmithdobbs: jargon is a troll who purports to 'audit' the code but really makes nonsensical statements with buzzwords and gibberish
 234 2011-05-13 03:29:00 genjix has left ()
 235 2011-05-13 03:29:02 <jrmithdobbs> oic
 236 2011-05-13 03:29:35 <doublec> although perhaps detox has helped
 237 2011-05-13 03:29:50 <jargon> Should I audit the JSON code first or the interpreter first?
 238 2011-05-13 03:30:00 <jargon> I don't see why it has both.
 239 2011-05-13 03:30:09 <doublec> apparently it hasn't
 240 2011-05-13 03:30:18 <jrmithdobbs> lol
 241 2011-05-13 03:31:51 <jargon> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.h
 242 2011-05-13 03:32:14 <jargon> SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY = 0x80
 243 2011-05-13 03:34:21 <alystair> SIGHASH_ANYONEBUTMEPAYS ?
 244 2011-05-13 03:34:23 <alystair> :D
 245 2011-05-13 03:36:55 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
 246 2011-05-13 03:39:50 <luke-jr> WTF WAS THAT
 247 2011-05-13 03:40:05 <Diablo-D3> what was what?
 248 2011-05-13 03:40:11 <luke-jr> ceb1a7fb57ef8b75ac59b56dd859d5cb3ab5c31168aa55eb3819cd5ddbd3d806
 249 2011-05-13 03:40:14 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
 250 2011-05-13 03:40:23 <Diablo-D3> it looks like a hash.
 251 2011-05-13 03:40:53 sacarlson has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 252 2011-05-13 03:40:58 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 253 2011-05-13 03:41:13 <luke-jr> a transaction
 254 2011-05-13 03:41:28 <Diablo-D3> whats rwong with it?
 255 2011-05-13 03:41:38 <luke-jr> it's all 0s
 256 2011-05-13 03:41:40 <_ape> any of you guys good with javascript? i'm trying to resize an iframe as its contents change (without onload)
 257 2011-05-13 03:41:49 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: find it on blockexplorer
 258 2011-05-13 03:41:56 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: it won't show until it's in a block
 259 2011-05-13 03:41:59 <Diablo-D3> oh
 260 2011-05-13 03:42:06 <alystair> and so... it begins
 261 2011-05-13 03:42:11 * alystair cackles loudly
 262 2011-05-13 03:42:25 <luke-jr> alystair: is that you?
 263 2011-05-13 03:42:49 <luke-jr> another one: 9173744691ac25f3cd94f35d4fc0e0a2b9d1ab17b4fe562acc07660552f95518
 264 2011-05-13 03:42:54 <alystair> it's the wiper block my friends at MIT created, it's a distruptive hash that invalidates everyones wallets by corrupting every single sequence.. muahahaha
 265 2011-05-13 03:43:05 <alystair> jk
 266 2011-05-13 03:43:06 <luke-jr> o ok
 267 2011-05-13 03:43:07 <alystair> I have no clue
 268 2011-05-13 03:43:09 <luke-jr> good thing I sold all
 269 2011-05-13 03:43:12 <doublec> yeah those are odd
 270 2011-05-13 03:43:22 * alystair hasn't opened his client in months
 271 2011-05-13 03:45:52 <luke-jr> it's not getting in any blocks
 272 2011-05-13 03:47:08 <luke-jr> http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ has it
 273 2011-05-13 03:47:47 <luke-jr> cute
 274 2011-05-13 03:48:11 <luke-jr> Eligius will include it :o
 275 2011-05-13 03:48:13 DavidSJ has joined
 276 2011-05-13 03:48:32 <draaglom> luke-jr I'm getting oddly large numbers of invalid blocks on your pool
 277 2011-05-13 03:49:02 <draaglom> *shares
 278 2011-05-13 03:49:08 <luke-jr> draaglom: maybe reconnect
 279 2011-05-13 03:49:16 <jargon> Anyone want on the auditing dev team for a hash-prediction patch?
 280 2011-05-13 03:49:17 <luke-jr> draaglom: where are you located?
 281 2011-05-13 03:49:28 <draaglom> UK
 282 2011-05-13 03:49:38 <jargon> Anyone want on the auditing dev team for a hash-prediction patch?
 283 2011-05-13 03:49:44 <jargon> sorry for the double post
 284 2011-05-13 03:50:31 <jargon> It is basically a means to measure divergence of hashes
 285 2011-05-13 03:51:03 <jargon> otherwise it will eventually go into a collided hash loop
 286 2011-05-13 03:51:11 <luke-jr> jargon: shut up
 287 2011-05-13 03:51:42 <jargon> You guys haven't put any thought into what would happen if there were a hash collision?
 288 2011-05-13 03:52:01 <luke-jr> jargon: shut up
 289 2011-05-13 03:52:06 <jargon> it would loop infinitely
 290 2011-05-13 03:52:29 <jargon> then blocks would come several trillion-trillion a day
 291 2011-05-13 03:52:48 <jargon> obviously bitcoin market would collapse
 292 2011-05-13 03:53:29 <doublec> hopefully jargon will collide with a hash someday
 293 2011-05-13 03:53:49 <Diablo-D3> [11:46:04] <jargon> You guys haven't put any thought into what would happen if there were a hash collision?
 294 2011-05-13 03:53:59 <Diablo-D3> well, for one, it'd prove sha256 is not secure
 295 2011-05-13 03:54:07 <Diablo-D3> other than that, nothing would meaningfully happen
 296 2011-05-13 03:54:21 B0g4r7 has joined
 297 2011-05-13 03:54:31 <luke-jr> so
 298 2011-05-13 03:54:38 <luke-jr> should I let this … thing … through?
 299 2011-05-13 03:54:54 <Diablo-D3> so what is it, exactly?
 300 2011-05-13 03:55:11 <luke-jr> a block full of 0 BTC outputs
 301 2011-05-13 03:55:17 <luke-jr> only a 0.01 BTC fee
 302 2011-05-13 03:55:19 <Diablo-D3> could be a bitdns demo
 303 2011-05-13 03:55:47 <doublec> I seem to recall someone suggesting 0 btc transactions on irc yesterday
 304 2011-05-13 03:56:06 <luke-jr> doublec: well, they sent it
 305 2011-05-13 03:56:50 <luke-jr> it's like 7 KB of data
 306 2011-05-13 03:57:19 <Diablo-D3> when does the oversized tx fee start?
 307 2011-05-13 03:57:20 <grbgout> doublec: what was the point behind the suggestion?
 308 2011-05-13 03:57:47 <doublec> grbgout: encoding data in the transaction somehow
 309 2011-05-13 03:57:55 <doublec> I'll see if I can find it
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 314 2011-05-13 04:03:42 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r9698d5b / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Fix >2^31 support - http://bit.ly/mcdsO1
 315 2011-05-13 04:06:32 <nanotube> hey, i thought cia.vc was dead?
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 341 2011-05-13 04:13:38 <alystair> worst attempt at flooding ever?
 342 2011-05-13 04:17:23 <luke-jr> lol
 343 2011-05-13 04:19:29 Ycros has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 344 2011-05-13 04:20:06 glassresistor has joined
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 355 2011-05-13 04:21:31 <alystair> can he be banned for a few hours
 356 2011-05-13 04:21:41 Ycros has joined
 357 2011-05-13 04:23:45 <JFK911> how about forever
 358 2011-05-13 04:23:47 lulzplzkthx has quit (afk!~lulzplzkt@76.226.185.192|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 359 2011-05-13 04:24:19 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 360 2011-05-13 04:25:10 frub3nz has joined
 361 2011-05-13 04:26:07 <luke-jr> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ceb1a7fb57ef8b75ac59b56dd859d5cb3ab5c31168aa55eb3819cd5ddbd3d806
 362 2011-05-13 04:27:20 <frub3nz> Anyone know how the PS3's client performs? I think I heard it's at about 21 Mhash/s.
 363 2011-05-13 04:27:31 <Diablo-D3> frub3nz: might be less
 364 2011-05-13 04:28:57 frub3nz has left ()
 365 2011-05-13 04:30:37 <nanotube> in that tx, there's data in the opchecksigs. first three outs are, when decoded to ascii: first three outs say this: =ybegin line=128 size=8776 name=bitcoin.jpg\r\n)\x02)=J*:tpsp*+++
 366 2011-05-13 04:30:43 OneFixt has joined
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 368 2011-05-13 04:30:56 <jrmithdobbs> you know
 369 2011-05-13 04:31:02 <nanotube> anyone care to grab the whole jpg and see what it is? :)
 370 2011-05-13 04:31:11 <nanotube> i suspect it's the bitcoin logo, judging by the name... heh.
 371 2011-05-13 04:31:14 <nanotube> wonder if my guess is right.
 372 2011-05-13 04:31:16 <jrmithdobbs> i know nano has no config files worth deleting. this is just satisfying to type every time though!: apt-get remove --purge nano
 373 2011-05-13 04:34:14 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
 374 2011-05-13 04:35:20 <grbgout> jrmithdobbs: aw, but we lub nanotube!
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 377 2011-05-13 04:35:39 alkor has quit (Quit: alkor)
 378 2011-05-13 04:36:09 <jargon> OP_ROLL looks eroneous at a glance
 379 2011-05-13 04:36:20 <jargon> erroneous*
 380 2011-05-13 04:36:22 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 381 2011-05-13 04:36:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 123577 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 1414 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 18 hours, 10 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 199423.41072400
 382 2011-05-13 04:36:44 <jrmithdobbs> grbgout: lol, was unrelated
 383 2011-05-13 04:36:48 <jargon> OP_ROLL looks at a glance like it doesn't actually ROR or ROL
 384 2011-05-13 04:37:16 <jargon> It looks like it just shifts and trims one direction
 385 2011-05-13 04:37:32 OneFixt has joined
 386 2011-05-13 04:37:37 nphekt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 387 2011-05-13 04:37:45 <jargon> I'm looking in script.h and script.cpp
 388 2011-05-13 04:37:46 OneFixt has quit (Changing host)
 389 2011-05-13 04:37:47 OneFixt has joined
 390 2011-05-13 04:38:07 <jargon> line 371-375
 391 2011-05-13 04:38:14 <jargon> in script.cpp
 392 2011-05-13 04:39:23 <jargon> Would this cause adverse effects if truely coded into the scripting engine incorrectly?
 393 2011-05-13 04:42:14 <jargon> wait,
 394 2011-05-13 04:42:36 <jargon> is this a barrel shift or an endian flip?
 395 2011-05-13 04:42:53 <jargon> or rather an addressing flip
 396 2011-05-13 04:43:04 <doublec> it does what the stack effect says it does
 397 2011-05-13 04:43:10 <doublec> (xn ... x2 x1 x0 n - ... x2 x1 x0 xn)
 398 2011-05-13 04:44:16 eao has joined
 399 2011-05-13 04:44:28 <jargon> so it does ROL for an address range word aligned
 400 2011-05-13 04:44:30 <jargon> ?
 401 2011-05-13 04:44:42 <jargon> within the stack?
 402 2011-05-13 04:45:28 <doublec> it removes the nth item from the stack, and pushes it on to the front of the stack
 403 2011-05-13 04:45:47 <doublec> vs PICK which copies the nth item from the stack and pushes it on to the front of the stack
 404 2011-05-13 04:47:03 <jargon> I see
 405 2011-05-13 04:47:39 <doublec> jargon: see here http://ficl.sourceforge.net/dpans/dpans6.htm#6.2.2150
 406 2011-05-13 04:47:51 <doublec> looks to be based on the ANSI Forth definition
 407 2011-05-13 04:48:58 tyran37 has quit ()
 408 2011-05-13 04:49:45 <jargon> I still don't understand how to do horizontal split between applications in Win7
 409 2011-05-13 04:54:09 <Diablo-D3> huh interesting
 410 2011-05-13 04:54:18 <Diablo-D3> hashkill's nvidia optimized kernel uses int4s
 411 2011-05-13 04:55:01 <JFK911> horizontal split is c-x 3 isnt it
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 416 2011-05-13 04:57:55 <jimb0> nanotube: it is the bitcoin logo yyencoded, it spans two transactions
 417 2011-05-13 04:58:18 zyb has joined
 418 2011-05-13 04:59:13 <jimb0> nanotube: tx ceb1a7fb57ef8b75ac59b56dd859d5cb3ab5c31168aa55eb3819cd5ddbd3d806 and 9173744691ac25f3cd94f35d4fc0e0a2b9d1ab17b4fe562acc07660552f95518
 419 2011-05-13 05:00:21 <vorlov> do u guys have 5870s or 5970s attached to PCI-Ex1 slots? does ubuntu discover them?
 420 2011-05-13 05:00:26 <vorlov> is it working for mininig?
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 426 2011-05-13 05:06:50 <nanotube> jimb0: heh cute... know whodunit?
 427 2011-05-13 05:07:22 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 428 2011-05-13 05:07:36 <jimb0> no
 429 2011-05-13 05:09:04 <nanotube> mmm
 430 2011-05-13 05:09:20 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,calc 44000000
 431 2011-05-13 05:09:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 44000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 4 hours, 16 minutes, and 6 seconds
 432 2011-05-13 05:09:34 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,calc 4400000
 433 2011-05-13 05:09:35 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 4400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 1 day, 18 hours, 41 minutes, and 8 seconds
 434 2011-05-13 05:09:48 <jrmithdobbs> ;;bc,gen 4400000
 435 2011-05-13 05:09:49 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 4400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 28.1125041305 BTC per day and 1.17135433877 BTC per hour.
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 444 2011-05-13 05:17:42 <Fnar> The 0.3.21 bitcoin client seems to be linked to libjpeg.so.62, but I've only got 8.0.2, any workarounds besides finding a .62 or compiling from source?
 445 2011-05-13 05:18:26 <jrmithdobbs> Fnar: it builds in like 5 min
 446 2011-05-13 05:18:30 <Diablo-D3> your distro probably still has 6b as well
 447 2011-05-13 05:18:53 <Diablo-D3> 7/8 uses an incompatible API
 448 2011-05-13 05:19:01 <Diablo-D3> Im not sure what in bitcoin uses libjpeg either
 449 2011-05-13 05:22:27 <Fnar> Looked at compiling but wanted to avoid gathering all the right versions of stuff. My wx version seems to let it compile but then crap out at runtime. If it's not going to be compatile anyway I'll find a .62 then
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 457 2011-05-13 05:53:29 <vorlov> do you guys have a good recomendation of a computer that is at a good price that can handle 2x5970s?
 458 2011-05-13 05:53:42 <vorlov> its just gonna be a headless miner... nothing too fency but was wondering if someone came across a good deal lately
 459 2011-05-13 05:54:42 bk128 has quit (Quit: bk128)
 460 2011-05-13 05:54:50 <jgarzik> vorlov: you have a source of additional 5970's?
 461 2011-05-13 05:55:11 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 462 2011-05-13 05:55:24 <vorlov> no i dont.... but id like to get a computer that can handle them
 463 2011-05-13 05:55:36 <vorlov> is everybody taking those off the market like hot dogs?
 464 2011-05-13 05:56:07 <noagendamarket> yes
 465 2011-05-13 05:57:43 <vorlov> i figured as much since the prices seem insane
 466 2011-05-13 05:57:54 <vorlov> but regardless... what do u guys use for computer to handle them
 467 2011-05-13 05:57:54 <vorlov> ?
 468 2011-05-13 05:58:07 <vorlov> whats a good price you manage to package together
 469 2011-05-13 05:58:08 <vorlov> ?
 470 2011-05-13 05:59:16 malnilion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 471 2011-05-13 05:59:41 malnilion has joined
 472 2011-05-13 05:59:46 <gmaxwell> proper 5970 rig: http://bayimg.com/KAAeaaAdp
 473 2011-05-13 06:01:32 <dissipate> can someone tell me what an ORPHAN BLOCK is?
 474 2011-05-13 06:01:37 <dissipate> my client is receiving a lot of them
 475 2011-05-13 06:02:15 <gmaxwell> Is your clock correct?
 476 2011-05-13 06:02:45 <Raccoon> hmm
 477 2011-05-13 06:02:53 <gmaxwell> An orphan block is a block which is not a member of the longest chain. It's a losing block that didn't end up contributing to the official transaction log.
 478 2011-05-13 06:03:03 <Raccoon> with the bitcoin deflation model
 479 2011-05-13 06:03:29 <Raccoon> wouldn't the cost of generating new blocks outweigh the transactions themselves
 480 2011-05-13 06:03:39 <Raccoon> especially if transactions come to 0.001 BTC for a loaf of bread
 481 2011-05-13 06:03:56 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: no because the difficulty will adjust and the cost of mining will go down.
 482 2011-05-13 06:04:00 <Raccoon> with a transaction cost of 0.01 or 0.1 BTC just to record it
 483 2011-05-13 06:04:04 <dissipate> gmaxwell, looks like there was a recent blockchain split
 484 2011-05-13 06:04:31 <Raccoon> but you see
 485 2011-05-13 06:04:31 <gmaxwell> (the aformentioned asics will make insane hash rates should be possible for not much money)
 486 2011-05-13 06:04:34 <Raccoon> blocks are produced at a constant rate, and not on a rate of demand, right?
 487 2011-05-13 06:05:01 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: the system adjusts the difficulty so you get 2016 per two weeks.
 488 2011-05-13 06:05:14 <gmaxwell> (1 per 10 minutes on average)
 489 2011-05-13 06:05:16 Sedra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 490 2011-05-13 06:05:37 <Raccoon> doesn't that limit the number of potential transactions per day?
 491 2011-05-13 06:05:38 Sedra has joined
 492 2011-05-13 06:05:52 <Raccoon> or can you store 50,000 transactions in a single block, too?
 493 2011-05-13 06:05:53 <gmaxwell> Right now blocks can be up to 1mb which will store a couple thousand transactions. Though that might get lifted in the future.
 494 2011-05-13 06:06:13 <Raccoon> just considering things like micropayments here
 495 2011-05-13 06:06:24 <Raccoon> if you earn 0.00001 BTC per sword swing
 496 2011-05-13 06:06:32 <dissipate> Raccoon, they are generated at a rate that is probabilistically determined by two factors: the aggregate hash rate of the network and the difficulty level.
 497 2011-05-13 06:06:44 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin doesn't currently scale to high micropayment volume, it could be scaled in the future.
 498 2011-05-13 06:06:46 joepie92 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 499 2011-05-13 06:06:57 <Raccoon> but not based on actual transaction economy
 500 2011-05-13 06:06:59 Fnar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 501 2011-05-13 06:07:23 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 502 2011-05-13 06:07:23 joepie92 has joined
 503 2011-05-13 06:07:23 <Raccoon> what if no transactions happen for 24 hours.  what are done with all the empty blocks?
 504 2011-05-13 06:07:36 <gmaxwell> Hm?
 505 2011-05-13 06:08:05 <Raccoon> each new block closes the previous right
 506 2011-05-13 06:08:08 Fnar has joined
 507 2011-05-13 06:08:08 <gmaxwell> Also— you can do transactions without waiting for a miner to confirm them, so long as they're small enough that you're not scared of a double-spend.
 508 2011-05-13 06:08:24 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: no. The solution of a block closes the block itself.
 509 2011-05-13 06:08:44 <gmaxwell> you solve a block with the transactions in it, which you continually add as you work.
 510 2011-05-13 06:09:08 <Raccoon> so a block stays open until a solution is found
 511 2011-05-13 06:09:18 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 512 2011-05-13 06:09:37 <gmaxwell> And a miner can perform a DOS on the network by refusing to put transactions into his blocks at all.
 513 2011-05-13 06:09:39 <Raccoon> and the transactions in it don't change the outcome hash of the block?
 514 2011-05-13 06:09:49 <gmaxwell> They do. They're part of the block.
 515 2011-05-13 06:10:10 <Raccoon> so how are miners constantly keeping up with new transactions while trying to computate a solution
 516 2011-05-13 06:10:38 <gmaxwell> The nonce space is 32bits. A 320MH/s miner could only work on that for about 13 seconds before getting new work.
 517 2011-05-13 06:10:46 <gmaxwell> The new work will be the hash of a new block.
 518 2011-05-13 06:10:58 <gmaxwell> Which, presumably, includes newer transactions.
 519 2011-05-13 06:11:28 <gmaxwell> You obviously don't have to stay right on the bleeding edge of the transaction log at all times.
 520 2011-05-13 06:11:42 <Raccoon> well
 521 2011-05-13 06:11:47 <Raccoon> which miner gets the win
 522 2011-05-13 06:11:52 <gmaxwell> E.g. at minute six you solve a block generated at minute 4 with transacitons up to minute 4. Thats what you publish then.
 523 2011-05-13 06:11:59 <Raccoon> the one with 15 or the one with 16 transactions in his block?
 524 2011-05-13 06:12:23 <gmaxwell> Whichever one was first. The transactions aren't relevant. The network has a consensus timestamping.
 525 2011-05-13 06:12:28 <gmaxwell> and more importantly:
 526 2011-05-13 06:12:35 <Raccoon> and how does the rest of the network, with latency, cope with which transaction should be the first of the new block
 527 2011-05-13 06:12:37 <gmaxwell> the one that becomes part of the longest chain by being extended wins.
 528 2011-05-13 06:12:41 <Raccoon> since there are two competing winners
 529 2011-05-13 06:12:52 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: the transactions are at the discretion of the miners.
 530 2011-05-13 06:13:10 <Raccoon> yes, but in the end, that block becomes defacto
 531 2011-05-13 06:13:10 <gmaxwell> They get feeds of transactions and they decide what to put into the blocks they mine and in what order.
 532 2011-05-13 06:13:14 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 533 2011-05-13 06:13:16 <Raccoon> i'm just curious how it's voted into stone
 534 2011-05-13 06:13:31 <Raccoon> and how everyone else adjusts to that
 535 2011-05-13 06:13:39 <Raccoon> disagreements, et al
 536 2011-05-13 06:13:44 bobo has joined
 537 2011-05-13 06:13:49 <Raccoon> "dude, i had that block solved ages ago!"
 538 2011-05-13 06:13:50 AStove has joined
 539 2011-05-13 06:13:54 <gmaxwell> Nodes pick the first solution to base their new work off. First is based off the network time, which is computed using some median stuff with exclusion based on recently solved block timestamps (I don't know the details there)
 540 2011-05-13 06:14:16 <gmaxwell> Ultimately it's the longest chain that really determines the winner
 541 2011-05-13 06:14:26 <gmaxwell> which means you need as much hashing power as most of the network to cheat.
 542 2011-05-13 06:14:26 mtrlt has joined
 543 2011-05-13 06:14:38 <Raccoon> and with netsplits?
 544 2011-05-13 06:14:50 <Raccoon> you could end up with two halves of a network computing on merrily for a day or two
 545 2011-05-13 06:14:53 <gmaxwell> Then you can end up with long orphaned chains that imploed on join.
 546 2011-05-13 06:14:55 <Raccoon> oblivious to eachother
 547 2011-05-13 06:15:04 <gmaxwell> And one, by chance, will end up longer than the other.
 548 2011-05-13 06:15:07 <Raccoon> and all those transactions?
 549 2011-05-13 06:15:13 <Raccoon> just get canceled?
 550 2011-05-13 06:15:14 <gmaxwell> will get added back to the pool.
 551 2011-05-13 06:15:19 <gmaxwell> to get reconfirmed
 552 2011-05-13 06:15:31 <Raccoon> but they're already spending money they don't have anymore
 553 2011-05-13 06:15:36 <Raccoon> money from new blocks they created
 554 2011-05-13 06:15:41 <gmaxwell> yep, then the side that loses ... POOF. Void transaction.
 555 2011-05-13 06:15:43 <Raccoon> that just got imploded
 556 2011-05-13 06:16:01 <Raccoon> and there's no battle?
 557 2011-05-13 06:16:15 <gmaxwell> this is why you wait for multiple confirmations when you care... or for many blocks to pass on the chain when you really care. This is alsowhy generated tx take 100 blocks to confirm.
 558 2011-05-13 06:16:24 <gmaxwell> No battle. Longest chain wins.
 559 2011-05-13 06:16:53 <gmaxwell> And this is why wasting all this energy on GPUs is a good thing: It makes it @#$@# hard to control the longest chain.
 560 2011-05-13 06:16:54 <Raccoon> it just seems possible for some pretend splitted network to come along and implode legitimate chains that way
 561 2011-05-13 06:17:20 <gmaxwell> You can only win by doing more hashing than the other side of the prospective split.
 562 2011-05-13 06:17:22 bobo has left ()
 563 2011-05-13 06:17:27 <Raccoon> and legitimate clients would start destroying their own data
 564 2011-05-13 06:17:55 <Raccoon> if you can purpously segment the network with DDOS
 565 2011-05-13 06:18:10 <Raccoon> you can divide and take over those segments one by one
 566 2011-05-13 06:18:14 <gmaxwell> The fact that splits lower the hashing power required to cause problems, is why I was babbling about linking bitcoin via ham radio the other day. :)
 567 2011-05-13 06:18:15 <Raccoon> until you own them all
 568 2011-05-13 06:18:59 <Raccoon> heh
 569 2011-05-13 06:19:18 <Raccoon> another problem is that so much of the work is being actually done by so few
 570 2011-05-13 06:19:22 <Raccoon> bit farms
 571 2011-05-13 06:19:38 <gmaxwell> (and you totally could do it.. you need less than 300bps to forward blocks now, if you don't mind waiting a while to get them.)
 572 2011-05-13 06:19:59 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: yes, that sucks.
 573 2011-05-13 06:20:28 <gmaxwell> This is why many people have made noise about deepbit being too big. Though really 50% isn't the first danger point. It's the last.
 574 2011-05-13 06:21:11 <gmaxwell> of course, when the gold rush ends and people mine because they care about the healt of the BC economy we'll probably see less care about varience reduction.
 575 2011-05-13 06:21:25 Marcel has joined
 576 2011-05-13 06:21:36 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 577 2011-05-13 06:21:38 <gmaxwell> s/healt/health s/varience/variance/
 578 2011-05-13 06:26:44 gjs278 has joined
 579 2011-05-13 06:32:19 zq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 580 2011-05-13 06:35:08 zyb has joined
 581 2011-05-13 06:39:32 <dissipate> gmaxwell, if deepbit got over 50% and someone took it over or the operator tried to do a takeover of bitcoin, the miners would jump ship.
 582 2011-05-13 06:39:38 <dissipate> gmaxwell, i'm not too worried
 583 2011-05-13 06:40:03 <gmaxwell> dissipate: The miners are not jumping ship when deepbit has a day long outage and charges the highest fee of all the pools.
 584 2011-05-13 06:40:39 <gmaxwell> You're assuming that miners are paying attention, and that lots of them care alot about the health of the network. Might be true, data so far is inconclusive.
 585 2011-05-13 06:41:08 <dissipate> gmaxwell, as soon as they found out, they would because the value of their coins would be at risk.
 586 2011-05-13 06:41:19 <gmaxwell> I'm not even worried about 50% things get nasty when the network is lopsided. Partitioning becomes more likely, etc.
 587 2011-05-13 06:41:20 <JFK911> what pools take less than deepbit?
 588 2011-05-13 06:41:25 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 589 2011-05-13 06:42:02 <gmaxwell> dissipate: that takes a while. An issue avoided by not having as much consolidation at pratically no cost.
 590 2011-05-13 06:42:19 <JFK911> what's deepbit take from the 'proportional' mode
 591 2011-05-13 06:42:27 <gmaxwell> 3%
 592 2011-05-13 06:42:28 <JFK911> 5%? 10%? mystery?
 593 2011-05-13 06:42:29 <JFK911> oh
 594 2011-05-13 06:42:37 <DavidSJ> Will the block size limit be removed one day?
 595 2011-05-13 06:42:38 <gmaxwell> JFK911: all of them?  The pools which are not infinitesmal/free are 2% I think.
 596 2011-05-13 06:42:43 <JFK911> yea
 597 2011-05-13 06:42:51 <dissipate> gmaxwell, if it was right at 51% and a takeover was attempted, only 2% would have to bail out
 598 2011-05-13 06:42:52 <mtrlt> JFK911: eligius, btcguild...
 599 2011-05-13 06:42:53 <gmaxwell> the PPS is 10% But thats sucker mode.
 600 2011-05-13 06:43:02 <JFK911> haha
 601 2011-05-13 06:43:03 x6763 has joined
 602 2011-05-13 06:43:39 <dissipate> gmaxwell, how well of an eye are you keeping on the block chain for spend reversals etc.?
 603 2011-05-13 06:43:59 Clark has joined
 604 2011-05-13 06:44:16 <gmaxwell> dissipate: you don't have to have 51% for bad things to happen. For example you lose n% of the transaction volume if a n% pool goes down. A pool with less than 50% can harm other pools by selectively not extending their blocks. For another example.
 605 2011-05-13 06:44:34 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
 606 2011-05-13 06:44:59 <gmaxwell> A large pool can, with very modest cost, proxy getwork for a small pool, and filter out winning shares, making the other pool look like a fraud and cause them to fail.
 607 2011-05-13 06:45:25 <JFK911> just not report the winning shares?
 608 2011-05-13 06:45:28 <gmaxwell> dissipate: My contribution to monitoring is that I'm logging all the getwork I get from several pools.
 609 2011-05-13 06:45:39 <JFK911> i didnt think you could steal shares from a pool
 610 2011-05-13 06:45:47 <gmaxwell> You can't steal. You can filter out.
 611 2011-05-13 06:46:17 <dissipate> gmaxwell, interesting. have any pools gone 'rogue' yet?
 612 2011-05-13 06:46:18 <JFK911> im not sure how that would benefit the trickster
 613 2011-05-13 06:46:26 <JFK911> unless it would just dry up the attacked pool
 614 2011-05-13 06:46:46 <gmaxwell> JFK911: say I'm evil. I connect to smallpool.  Small pool is 5GH/s.  I add 5GH/s of capacity but I never return a winner.  I still get paid when they do happen to win, but they win far less than they should and the users conclude the pool is skimming.
 615 2011-05-13 06:46:56 trace_busta_bust is now known as euclid
 616 2011-05-13 06:46:59 <dissipate> gmaxwell, a pool like deepbit could really mess up the network by just not including any transactions in its blocks.
 617 2011-05-13 06:47:12 <JFK911> okay, but then you dont benefit at all from that 5Gh
 618 2011-05-13 06:47:16 <gmaxwell> If you are a big pool you can use your own users to shut down any smaller pool.
 619 2011-05-13 06:47:39 <gmaxwell> dissipate: there are already some miners who apparently don't include transactions.  Or at least, I can't explain some of the blocks otherwise.
 620 2011-05-13 06:47:41 <JFK911> well i guess you do
 621 2011-05-13 06:47:48 <JFK911> depending on how many solves you withhold
 622 2011-05-13 06:47:50 <dissipate> gmaxwell, the smaller pool just has to cut off miners that deliver too few blocks outside of the statistical bounds
 623 2011-05-13 06:47:55 <gmaxwell> 9 minutes since the last, plenty of tx at the time.. no transactions in the block..
 624 2011-05-13 06:47:59 random_ has joined
 625 2011-05-13 06:48:25 <gmaxwell> dissipate: winning shares are very unlikely. (I log my shares)  Plus they'd use proxies and a dozen ids.
 626 2011-05-13 06:48:28 <dissipate> gmaxwell, yep, some of them have been doing it. it's a problem for the current phase with no tx fees.
 627 2011-05-13 06:49:04 <dissipate> gmaxwell, i suppose it could be done!
 628 2011-05-13 06:49:11 <gmaxwell> I don't know about any rouge pools. Some people have made accusations. I think they're crazy. The incentives are all there, and the situation is improved via more smaller pools.
 629 2011-05-13 06:49:29 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: seems awful complex
 630 2011-05-13 06:49:57 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: why not just ddos deepbit and fuck up the difficulty (and the txn generation rate)
 631 2011-05-13 06:50:07 <jrmithdobbs> if you want to talk real and easy attacks
 632 2011-05-13 06:50:18 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I mentioned outages before. Right.
 633 2011-05-13 06:50:31 <gmaxwell> There is basically nothing but downsides to having a lot of consolidation.
 634 2011-05-13 06:50:32 <noagendamarket> that would do it
 635 2011-05-13 06:50:54 <jrmithdobbs> aye
 636 2011-05-13 06:51:05 <gmaxwell> another thing that would help improve things is if mining software would automatically fall back to solo mode when the pool was down.
 637 2011-05-13 06:51:12 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that particular issue will sort itself once competing pools have similar features, though, honestly
 638 2011-05-13 06:51:16 <gmaxwell> It would reduce attack incentives of all kinds.
 639 2011-05-13 06:51:57 <jrmithdobbs> it'd still fuck the txn processing rate to some extant
 640 2011-05-13 06:52:01 <jrmithdobbs> extent
 641 2011-05-13 06:53:20 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but ya, pools are nothing but trouble waiting to happen
 642 2011-05-13 06:53:23 <jrmithdobbs> in general
 643 2011-05-13 06:53:47 <jrmithdobbs> especially huge pools.
 644 2011-05-13 06:54:01 <jrmithdobbs> what if deepbit suddenly dropped all txns without a fee for instance
 645 2011-05-13 06:54:10 <jrmithdobbs> 40% of blocks will now drop all fee-less txns
 646 2011-05-13 06:54:36 <JFK911> luke's doing that
 647 2011-05-13 06:54:46 <gmaxwell> that would grind everything to a halt — because there are already tx getting hung up on low priority unconfirmed contributors.
 648 2011-05-13 06:54:59 <jrmithdobbs> in general it's not a horrible thing, seeing as fees are supposed to be the real incentive
 649 2011-05-13 06:55:29 <gmaxwell> Luke's fee floor is pretty reasonable too. It infinitesmal. It's just painful until the clients support the desired behavior...
 650 2011-05-13 06:55:36 <jrmithdobbs> but ya, it hurts first time user experience and such
 651 2011-05-13 06:55:38 <gmaxwell> and until the dependency issue is worked out.
 652 2011-05-13 06:56:15 <JFK911> gmaxwell: right i thought he was demanding .01 btc because most people cant send less than that
 653 2011-05-13 06:56:46 <gmaxwell> JFK911: nah, 0.00004096 BTC per 512 bytes
 654 2011-05-13 06:57:32 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 655 2011-05-13 06:57:51 <jrmithdobbs> but take that to the next extreme
 656 2011-05-13 06:57:58 <jrmithdobbs> what if deepbit just stops including txns
 657 2011-05-13 06:58:07 <jrmithdobbs> big enough the money lost wont matter
 658 2011-05-13 06:58:33 <jrmithdobbs> [Tycho]: and i'm not picking on you in particular, you're just 40%+ of cycles on the network
 659 2011-05-13 06:59:31 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=7361.msg108052#msg108052
 660 2011-05-13 06:59:51 <jrmithdobbs> it took me about 2 minutes on first code read to figure out how to drop feeless txns and another 5 how to drop all txns (these were some of my first thoughts of bad things happening and I was looking for how it was handled, haha)
 661 2011-05-13 07:00:22 unomi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 662 2011-05-13 07:02:04 <JFK911> lets ddos deepbit by giving it bad answers
 663 2011-05-13 07:02:16 <JFK911> how many bad answers do you think it can handle per second
 664 2011-05-13 07:02:25 <wumpus> nothing good will come of ddossing each other
 665 2011-05-13 07:02:31 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Indeed.
 666 2011-05-13 07:02:43 <gmaxwell> And deepbit appears to be a great service run by dediated people.
 667 2011-05-13 07:02:44 LanceRushing has joined
 668 2011-05-13 07:03:00 <gmaxwell> It the poster child for big pools, but its a good pool as far as I can tell.
 669 2011-05-13 07:03:49 <gmaxwell> At current difficulty you only need about 40-50GH/s so that you're almost certantly getting paid every day.
 670 2011-05-13 07:04:00 <wumpus> it'd be better to just try to influence people to switch pools, by telling them about the problem
 671 2011-05-13 07:04:07 <gmaxwell> I don't personally see a need for pools to be an order of magnitude bigger than that.
 672 2011-05-13 07:04:59 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: noone's suggesting it actually be done but these are all valid fears as far as I can tell
 673 2011-05-13 07:06:02 duosrx has joined
 674 2011-05-13 07:06:15 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: noone thought anyone would be dropping fee-less txns this early, for instance and that's definitely happening (I'm ok with this tbqh)
 675 2011-05-13 07:06:38 <wumpus> yes I agree it's a valid fear, just that DDOS is not a solution, it will only start a 'war' at the expense of people simply using bitcoin to do business :)
 676 2011-05-13 07:07:06 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: also, the idea of not including ANY txns on purpose seems to kind of counterintuitive to the whole concept of bitcoin ... yet it's happening
 677 2011-05-13 07:07:08 <wumpus> I hadn't expected that either
 678 2011-05-13 07:07:30 <wumpus> yes that sounds pretty destructive, but is deepbit doing that?
 679 2011-05-13 07:07:36 <jrmithdobbs> no
 680 2011-05-13 07:07:37 <gmaxwell> No.
 681 2011-05-13 07:07:53 <wumpus> right, good
 682 2011-05-13 07:08:00 <gmaxwell> The blocks doing that are never seen addresses that don't appear to spend any of it.
 683 2011-05-13 07:08:12 <jrmithdobbs> aye
 684 2011-05-13 07:08:31 <wumpus> hm just some misfit with a lot of hashing power
 685 2011-05-13 07:08:47 <gmaxwell> I don't know _why_ anyone would do that. Other than writing their own software and being lazy. The small computation needed to setup the blocks is actually paid for by tx fees.
 686 2011-05-13 07:08:48 <jrmithdobbs> i'd be willing to bet it's several, not one
 687 2011-05-13 07:09:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh i see the logic behind it
 688 2011-05-13 07:09:17 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: it's not particularly sound though
 689 2011-05-13 07:09:39 <wumpus> apart from disrupting the network I can't think of any reason either
 690 2011-05-13 07:09:47 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: don't process the txns, submit the finished block quicker, beat anyone else who happened to win the hash lottery to the punch
 691 2011-05-13 07:09:54 <jrmithdobbs> it's miniscule
 692 2011-05-13 07:09:57 <gmaxwell> I went to look at the code to see how timestamping worked to see if you got an advantage from that...
 693 2011-05-13 07:10:04 <jrmithdobbs> but it IS a slight advantage
 694 2011-05-13 07:10:07 <gmaxwell> I don't think you really do.. the timestamp is on the initial recv
 695 2011-05-13 07:10:28 <gmaxwell> But it's likely I didn't get the whole picture.
 696 2011-05-13 07:10:38 <jrmithdobbs> i haven't read much of the netcode at this point
 697 2011-05-13 07:10:57 <jrmithdobbs> but that is probably their thinking, whether true or not
 698 2011-05-13 07:11:03 <gmaxwell> Fair enough.
 699 2011-05-13 07:11:18 <gmaxwell> if you wrote a bunch of custom code you can also start computing faste.
 700 2011-05-13 07:11:21 <gmaxwell> er faster.
 701 2011-05-13 07:11:31 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
 702 2011-05-13 07:11:33 <gmaxwell> Validate nothing, take the last block's has and _run_
 703 2011-05-13 07:11:34 <gribble> Current Blocks: 123602 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 1389 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 201743.02580726
 704 2011-05-13 07:11:53 <Raccoon> what happens if someone comes in way-way-late with a better hashed block?  i thought the spoils go to the lower hash, not the earliest timestamp
 705 2011-05-13 07:12:22 <Raccoon> and which clients determine difficulty?
 706 2011-05-13 07:12:23 <wumpus> can't the client be changed to reject such blocks? they don't really serve a purpose in the network, after all
 707 2011-05-13 07:12:31 khalahan_ has joined
 708 2011-05-13 07:12:31 <Raccoon> which one client seeds the rest?
 709 2011-05-13 07:12:40 <gmaxwell> It's distributed.
 710 2011-05-13 07:12:41 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: sometimes there actually ARENT any txns though
 711 2011-05-13 07:12:56 <Raccoon> all distributed networks start with a single hive mind, somewhere
 712 2011-05-13 07:12:57 <gmaxwell> The difficulty uses the timestamps on span of 2016 blocks.
 713 2011-05-13 07:12:58 <jrmithdobbs> not often but it does happen
 714 2011-05-13 07:13:00 <Raccoon> a spark
 715 2011-05-13 07:13:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: you can generate a bogus tx ..pay yourself.
 716 2011-05-13 07:13:21 <jrmithdobbs> that too
 717 2011-05-13 07:13:23 unomi has joined
 718 2011-05-13 07:13:26 <wumpus> true, it'd need some logic beyond simply checking the block for emptiness
 719 2011-05-13 07:13:27 russiane39 has joined
 720 2011-05-13 07:13:42 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I thought about this and gave up pretty quickly.
 721 2011-05-13 07:13:42 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: but you can't tell if they're paying themselves
 722 2011-05-13 07:13:46 <jrmithdobbs> that's the point
 723 2011-05-13 07:13:48 <jrmithdobbs> of bitcoin
 724 2011-05-13 07:13:56 <gmaxwell> you can tell if you've seen another TX...
 725 2011-05-13 07:13:57 <wumpus> the transactions will have to come from the unconfirmed transactions
 726 2011-05-13 07:14:01 <jgarzik> that also presumes clients will accept and relay said block.  if a majority of -clients- like a longer chain, an evil miner has an uphill battle
 727 2011-05-13 07:14:21 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but if you're hoarding in this fashion you're going to use a new address and hoard until people forget
 728 2011-05-13 07:14:24 <jrmithdobbs> or try to
 729 2011-05-13 07:14:25 <Raccoon> when will a miner choose to accept or reject a tx
 730 2011-05-13 07:14:45 <Raccoon> who's to say whether a flood of transactions are legitimate or spam?
 731 2011-05-13 07:14:50 <gmaxwell> My best thought along those lines was that miners could simply agree to not extend blocks that lacked too many of the TX in their own views...
 732 2011-05-13 07:15:03 <bd_> Raccoon: too many transactions just means ones with a higher transaction fee will get priority...
 733 2011-05-13 07:15:06 <gmaxwell> but that seemed ugly and begged for really bad additional behavior.
 734 2011-05-13 07:15:07 <jrmithdobbs> no that's a horrible solution
 735 2011-05-13 07:15:25 <Raccoon> bd_: and the many thousands with no tx fee will never confirm?
 736 2011-05-13 07:15:37 <Raccoon> someone spams a million tx with 0.00001 fee
 737 2011-05-13 07:15:39 <jrmithdobbs> ya that could be abused more than the original issue you're trying to adress
 738 2011-05-13 07:15:45 <Raccoon> right now most are fee-less
 739 2011-05-13 07:16:24 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: right, my conclusion too. "Lets teach them to conspire to exclude people and give them software tools for it!"
 740 2011-05-13 07:16:27 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: eg, spam a bunch of tiny ass txns
 741 2011-05-13 07:16:30 <wumpus> btw, it seems that currently lacking is a way to cancel transactions that are unconfirmed but are unlikely to ever make it into the block chain.. am I right?
 742 2011-05-13 07:16:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: bam, noone ever gets a block
 743 2011-05-13 07:16:40 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 150000
 744 2011-05-13 07:16:41 <bd_> Raccoon: They'll make it through eventually.
 745 2011-05-13 07:16:43 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 150000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 0.95838082263 BTC per day and 0.0399325342762 BTC per hour.
 746 2011-05-13 07:16:44 <JFK911> ;;bc,calc 150000
 747 2011-05-13 07:16:44 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 7 weeks, 3 days, 4 hours, 6 minutes, and 42 seconds
 748 2011-05-13 07:16:51 <JFK911> ;;bc,calcd 150000 201000
 749 2011-05-13 07:16:51 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 150000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 201000, is 9 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 40 minutes, and 56 seconds
 750 2011-05-13 07:16:58 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: yes
 751 2011-05-13 07:17:01 <gmaxwell> jmpespxoreax: even better, spam a bunch of real users with tiny txn and their fee transactions will currently get hung up on the unconfirmed spam when they spend it.
 752 2011-05-13 07:17:05 <bd_> Raccoon: it's just that when the block exceeds certain size limits, high-fee txns are prioritized _for that block_. It gets reset the next time aroud
 753 2011-05-13 07:17:06 <wumpus> so they will hang around foreve?
 754 2011-05-13 07:17:14 <Raccoon> bd_ not if you are always pushing the theshhold of maximum transactions that can be recorded in the availble constant blocks being mined
 755 2011-05-13 07:17:24 <bd_> Raccoon: Yep. At that point transaction fees become mandatory
 756 2011-05-13 07:17:32 <bd_> This is by design.
 757 2011-05-13 07:17:41 <wumpus> or are unprocessed transactions dropped after a while?
 758 2011-05-13 07:17:47 <Raccoon> but where is the design push to mandate fees
 759 2011-05-13 07:17:52 <Raccoon> clients are ill equipped?
 760 2011-05-13 07:18:01 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
 761 2011-05-13 07:18:02 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.4,"low":5.22,"vol":45448,"buy":7.1037,"sell":7.11,"last":7.103}}
 762 2011-05-13 07:18:06 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: I thought the next version was changing fee behavior?
 763 2011-05-13 07:18:12 <Raccoon> i dunno
 764 2011-05-13 07:18:19 <bd_> Raccoon: clients are ill-equipped because it hasn't happened yet, and seems unlikely for a while. It's not too difficult - basically you'd resubmit a txn with the same sources but a higher fee
 765 2011-05-13 07:18:24 <bd_> One of the two txns will win
 766 2011-05-13 07:18:39 <Raccoon> what if both do
 767 2011-05-13 07:18:46 <gmaxwell> they can't, same source.
 768 2011-05-13 07:18:48 <jrmithdobbs> they can't because of the double spending logic
 769 2011-05-13 07:18:52 <jrmithdobbs> aye
 770 2011-05-13 07:18:55 <Raccoon> what of a netsplit
 771 2011-05-13 07:19:01 <gmaxwell> then one side eventually loses.
 772 2011-05-13 07:19:04 <jrmithdobbs> longest block wins on rejoin
 773 2011-05-13 07:19:13 <Raccoon> not highest fee?
 774 2011-05-13 07:19:23 <gmaxwell> No. Longest chain.
 775 2011-05-13 07:19:26 <jrmithdobbs> there's enough nodes that a netsplit is infeasible at this point though
 776 2011-05-13 07:19:27 <Raccoon> and who collects the fees
 777 2011-05-13 07:19:29 <jrmithdobbs> err ya chain
 778 2011-05-13 07:19:58 <Raccoon> someone really should create some powerpoint-like illustrations
 779 2011-05-13 07:20:03 <Raccoon> flow charts, graphics
 780 2011-05-13 07:20:04 <Raccoon> :)
 781 2011-05-13 07:20:11 <jrmithdobbs> it's all on the wiki
 782 2011-05-13 07:20:18 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: might be trivial: you assume big pools are well run. ;) For all we know a single screwed up firewall rule would put random-pool in its own universe with its miners. :)
 783 2011-05-13 07:20:43 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
 784 2011-05-13 07:20:53 <Raccoon> and what if a netsplit lasts longer than 100 chains
 785 2011-05-13 07:20:57 <gmaxwell> Doesn't matter in any case, the system resolves splits.
 786 2011-05-13 07:21:01 <Raccoon> it rejoins a week later
 787 2011-05-13 07:21:19 <Raccoon> you can't just redo a week worth of work
 788 2011-05-13 07:22:04 AStove has quit ()
 789 2011-05-13 07:24:06 Herodes has joined
 790 2011-05-13 07:24:09 <Raccoon> i also think at some point it'd be nice if block history became archived in some torrent form
 791 2011-05-13 07:24:28 <Raccoon> completely static, read only.
 792 2011-05-13 07:24:45 <Raccoon> non-destructable regardless of splits-joins-attacks
 793 2011-05-13 07:25:08 <Herodes> Anyone here had graphical user interface behaving a bit odd when compiling the bitcoin client under windows 7? Esp. the adress bok and the send coins icons/menu selections have remains from other programs/itself when resized or moved? Any ideas as to what may cause this?
 794 2011-05-13 07:25:37 <Raccoon> that's called the hall-of-mirrors effect.
 795 2011-05-13 07:25:58 <Raccoon> it's the result of a failure to paint/refresh a region
 796 2011-05-13 07:26:10 <Herodes> Ah, I didn't know that. I am very new to this. Just set up the environment today, which took a long time, and then made some slight changes to the stock client, just to check things out.
 797 2011-05-13 07:26:31 <Herodes> Raccoon: Yes, that describes the problem very well.
 798 2011-05-13 07:26:34 <Raccoon> i'm speaking of computer science theory and what you're experiencing
 799 2011-05-13 07:26:45 <Raccoon> i know nothing of why the client is doing it specifically
 800 2011-05-13 07:26:47 <Herodes> Exactly.
 801 2011-05-13 07:27:28 <Herodes> Yes, I understand.
 802 2011-05-13 07:28:27 <Herodes> the officially compiled client does not have this issue. Only the client that I have compiled.
 803 2011-05-13 07:28:59 <Herodes> I have altered iu.cpp, but only with things that have to do with logic, nothing that has to do with displaying the UI.
 804 2011-05-13 07:29:21 <Herodes> I will try do compile the source unaltered to see if the problem is still there for me.
 805 2011-05-13 07:29:22 <Raccoon> i'm guessing for some reason the client is not getting WM_PAINT messages, or the paint region is not updated as you resize, which can also be from a number of higher level problems
 806 2011-05-13 07:30:16 <Raccoon> it could even be something like ascii/unicode or 32/64 bit structures
 807 2011-05-13 07:32:54 <Herodes> aha, okay.. I am not compiling the original source, to see if that will work well. If it does I will know that the reason for the hall-of-mirrors effect are because of my changes.
 808 2011-05-13 07:33:00 <Herodes> I am now
 809 2011-05-13 07:33:02 <Herodes> not not
 810 2011-05-13 07:33:05 <Herodes> *tired*
 811 2011-05-13 07:33:06 <Herodes> :\
 812 2011-05-13 07:33:40 <Raccoon> does the source give any compile instructions?
 813 2011-05-13 07:33:54 <Herodes> make -f makefile.mingw
 814 2011-05-13 07:34:04 <Herodes> and the source has instructions as well, but these did not work.
 815 2011-05-13 07:34:14 <Herodes> what worked is the post here:
 816 2011-05-13 07:34:15 <Herodes> https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=5851.0
 817 2011-05-13 07:34:17 BitMark has joined
 818 2011-05-13 07:34:46 <Herodes> I tried to follow the instructions that came with the source, but these seems to be not updated.
 819 2011-05-13 07:36:21 <Herodes> Nah, it's the same problem without my alterations. Actally now I compiled the client, and the terminal window that' sin the background is repainted in the entire manu-region.
 820 2011-05-13 07:37:00 <topi`> Raccoon: it's a nice idea, to archive the block chain
 821 2011-05-13 07:37:19 <Herodes> IT's no big deal for me at the moment though, but there was a dude at the forum who wanted sound support in the client, so I compiled it in for him, but then there is this issue with hall-of-mirros effect.
 822 2011-05-13 07:37:33 <topi`> Raccoon: we could do such a thing, that the block chain is frozen and everybody on this channel signs the block chain (if notices no tampering) with their GPG key.
 823 2011-05-13 07:37:51 <topi`> Raccoon: do you think it would be good enough?
 824 2011-05-13 07:37:53 <Raccoon> however it's done
 825 2011-05-13 07:38:20 <Raccoon> the idea though that i find troubling is that a group of clients will start eating its young if it things a chain looks better
 826 2011-05-13 07:38:25 <Raccoon> even if that chain is from 2 years ago?
 827 2011-05-13 07:38:31 <topi`> you need to *sign* it, otherwise it can be manipulated and then it doesn't reflect history
 828 2011-05-13 07:38:41 <Raccoon> and is it safe guarded to make sure that chain is mended correctly?
 829 2011-05-13 07:39:20 <topi`> well, the historical chain would be interesting at least for historians if nothing else :D
 830 2011-05-13 07:39:35 <Raccoon> but all clients have that history
 831 2011-05-13 07:39:39 <Raccoon> and it's not read-only
 832 2011-05-13 07:39:45 <topi`> they do, and that's a problem ;)
 833 2011-05-13 07:39:48 <Raccoon> a bad apple can start causing shit
 834 2011-05-13 07:40:05 <Raccoon> a client claiming to have 50,000 other clients in agreement
 835 2011-05-13 07:40:20 <topi`> well. I can put my block-chain into GIT now. but then i'm the only one who trusts that chain to be correct :)
 836 2011-05-13 07:41:36 <Raccoon> isn't history necessary though
 837 2011-05-13 07:41:55 <Raccoon> if someone wants to spend BTC they have in a 2 year old account?
 838 2011-05-13 07:42:29 <topi`> now, I committed the block chain to my personal GIT :)
 839 2011-05-13 07:42:50 <Raccoon> GIT?
 840 2011-05-13 07:42:58 <topi`> it's a revision control system
 841 2011-05-13 07:43:01 basic_ed has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 842 2011-05-13 07:43:33 eao has joined
 843 2011-05-13 07:48:02 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: these claims all must be backed up by having to _enormous_ amounts of hashing work.
 844 2011-05-13 07:49:09 <gmaxwell> You're worried about an attack that requires as much hashing as the whole bitcoin network for a sustained amount of time. We're talking about a half million in equipment right now and growing.
 845 2011-05-13 07:50:32 <ArtForz> that estimate is awfully low
 846 2011-05-13 07:50:54 <jrmithdobbs> it is
 847 2011-05-13 07:51:00 <gmaxwell> I was being conservative. 3600*150 basically the cheapest unit of hashing power plus no support costs.
 848 2011-05-13 07:51:02 <jrmithdobbs> to rent it on ec2 is billions an hour
 849 2011-05-13 07:51:06 <jrmithdobbs> for instance
 850 2011-05-13 07:51:14 <ArtForz> just the GPUs are more than that
 851 2011-05-13 07:51:48 <jrmithdobbs> and that's assuming ec2 even had the capacity to spin up such a request
 852 2011-05-13 07:51:52 <jrmithdobbs> (they don't)
 853 2011-05-13 07:53:05 <gmaxwell> okay 1402 GH/ .320MH (5850 at retail right now, ignoring that they're sold out) * 150 = 657150 (the network grew since last week!). It's totally awful and unrealistic, but it's ignoring the possiblity of getting some kind of bulk discount.
 854 2011-05-13 07:53:12 mesees has joined
 855 2011-05-13 07:53:26 <mesees> where can i find my wallet in windows?
 856 2011-05-13 07:53:27 <ArtForz> 1.5Th/s is ~4000 6970s
 857 2011-05-13 07:54:05 <jrmithdobbs> mesees: %APPDATA%\bitcoin
 858 2011-05-13 07:54:16 <jrmithdobbs> i think that's the var
 859 2011-05-13 07:54:27 <jrmithdobbs> maybe %APPSUPPORT%
 860 2011-05-13 07:54:52 <gmaxwell> ArtForz: regardless, we're in violent agreement about the point that matters, I think.
 861 2011-05-13 07:55:05 <ArtForz> assuming you can get em in bulk for $250, thats roughly a million in GPUs
 862 2011-05-13 07:55:39 <jrmithdobbs> without even considering the power and ac just to turn them on
 863 2011-05-13 07:55:49 <jrmithdobbs> and the labor involved in packing them in shit
 864 2011-05-13 07:55:55 <ArtForz> yep
 865 2011-05-13 07:56:09 <jrmithdobbs> painfully aware of the latter, heh
 866 2011-05-13 07:56:14 <ArtForz> rest of the hardware and assembly, about 2M... and you still need a facility with enough power and cooling
 867 2011-05-13 07:56:33 <jrmithdobbs> no you'd need multiple facilities
 868 2011-05-13 07:56:33 <gmaxwell> plus dealing with failures...
 869 2011-05-13 07:56:36 <jrmithdobbs> just to manage cooling
 870 2011-05-13 07:56:47 <ArtForz> roughly one megawatt
 871 2011-05-13 07:56:58 <wumpus> could a botnet do it? it'd get around all the trouble of buying and installing the hardware
 872 2011-05-13 07:57:06 <gmaxwell> 1.6MW? yea, thats a whole last-gen facility and then some on its own.
 873 2011-05-13 07:57:13 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: you'd have to selectively target your botnet at gpu-heavy machines
 874 2011-05-13 07:57:19 <jrmithdobbs> to aquire, i mean
 875 2011-05-13 07:57:22 <gmaxwell> okay, you could get it into a single facility. But it would be most of it.
 876 2011-05-13 07:57:28 <wumpus> just use people's GPUs, enough gamers around ,maybe make it sinstall with some fake game or add-on
 877 2011-05-13 07:57:43 <ArtForz> a botnet could work, but it probably won't live long
 878 2011-05-13 07:57:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i don't think you could cool it one facility
 879 2011-05-13 07:57:45 <gmaxwell> wumpus: attack by the deveopers of minecraft.
 880 2011-05-13 07:58:06 <wumpus> it'd also be very distributed and hard to block in that case
 881 2011-05-13 07:58:20 <wumpus> lol gmaxwell
 882 2011-05-13 07:58:23 <retinal> wow
 883 2011-05-13 07:58:26 <retinal> minecraft
 884 2011-05-13 07:58:28 <retinal> that's genius
 885 2011-05-13 07:58:45 <jrmithdobbs> ya but to get enough to take over the the network... i still don't know that that would do it
 886 2011-05-13 07:58:46 <gmaxwell> You think thats genius.
 887 2011-05-13 07:58:56 <jrmithdobbs> even gamers often lag 2-3 gens behind on gpus
 888 2011-05-13 07:58:57 <gmaxwell> Dude. This time next year browsers will be shipping webcl.
 889 2011-05-13 07:59:00 <jrmithdobbs> which would be worthless for this.
 890 2011-05-13 07:59:03 <gmaxwell> Your viagra spam will be mining.
 891 2011-05-13 07:59:13 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: yup
 892 2011-05-13 07:59:19 <ArtForz> well, not really worthless
 893 2011-05-13 07:59:26 <jrmithdobbs> close enough
 894 2011-05-13 07:59:28 <ArtForz> if it's not your own power, who cares about efficiency
 895 2011-05-13 07:59:32 <jrmithdobbs> and people would notice their power bill spikes
 896 2011-05-13 07:59:34 <wumpus> not worthless, it's also the quantity that counts
 897 2011-05-13 07:59:40 <jrmithdobbs> enough people would, at least
 898 2011-05-13 07:59:49 <gmaxwell> 20million semimodern CPU cores would do a lot... :)
 899 2011-05-13 07:59:52 <wumpus> they'd notice that their pc makes a lot more sound :p
 900 2011-05-13 07:59:58 <ArtForz> yep
 901 2011-05-13 08:00:11 <ArtForz> you can't use more than 10% or so without fan noise getting obvious
 902 2011-05-13 08:00:28 <jrmithdobbs> aye and ratelimited mining defeats the purpose
 903 2011-05-13 08:00:38 <gmaxwell> sure, but multiply 2MH/s * 20m... you have some headroom.
 904 2011-05-13 08:00:40 <wumpus> by the time they see the power bills it's too late for them
 905 2011-05-13 08:01:23 <wumpus> but the sheer quantity is scary, even though the nodes would be weak on average
 906 2011-05-13 08:01:26 <gmaxwell> I don't know if thats actually possible... perhaps a multimillion host botnet has a lot of slow systems. It's not entirely crazy however.
 907 2011-05-13 08:01:36 <ArtForz> a large % of zombies nowadays are crappy notebooks
 908 2011-05-13 08:01:45 <jrmithdobbs> aye
 909 2011-05-13 08:01:47 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 910 2011-05-13 08:01:47 <gmaxwell> OMG it's on FIRE!
 911 2011-05-13 08:02:07 <wumpus> anyway, a botnet owner would probably just mine and cash in, instead of sabotaging the network, so yeah...
 912 2011-05-13 08:02:07 <jrmithdobbs> i think the network is big enough to make most such attacks infeasible at this point
 913 2011-05-13 08:02:08 <gmaxwell> "new 'mining' worm causes computer fires. Motivation not yet understood."
 914 2011-05-13 08:02:11 <jrmithdobbs> now
 915 2011-05-13 08:02:13 <jrmithdobbs> not to be the downer
 916 2011-05-13 08:02:16 <wumpus> because it's less conspicious as well
 917 2011-05-13 08:02:24 <jrmithdobbs> this all assumes we're talking people without resources.
 918 2011-05-13 08:02:32 <ArtForz> gmaxwell: lol, now that'd be funny
 919 2011-05-13 08:02:38 <jrmithdobbs> what happens if goldman's decides they want to kill it?
 920 2011-05-13 08:02:42 <wumpus> lol :)
 921 2011-05-13 08:02:46 <jrmithdobbs> that cost is a drop in the fuckin bucket.
 922 2011-05-13 08:02:49 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: not a joke.
 923 2011-05-13 08:03:03 <gmaxwell> $1m $5m .. whatever it's not a big investment for the right kind of org.
 924 2011-05-13 08:03:43 <ArtForz> yup
 925 2011-05-13 08:03:50 <gmaxwell> Protection against that? $1m spent on an advertisment campaign and lobbying would do more damage than ANY technical attack.
 926 2011-05-13 08:03:51 <jrmithdobbs> that's the single biggest risk right now.
 927 2011-05-13 08:04:07 <ArtForz> yep
 928 2011-05-13 08:04:10 <jrmithdobbs> yup.
 929 2011-05-13 08:04:16 <ArtForz> technical attacks are rather unlikely
 930 2011-05-13 08:04:39 peck has joined
 931 2011-05-13 08:04:40 <ArtForz> probably cheaper to buy a few laws in the long term
 932 2011-05-13 08:04:47 <wumpus> but technical attacks would be most dangerous as they affect the network globally
 933 2011-05-13 08:05:04 <gmaxwell> ...
 934 2011-05-13 08:05:10 <gmaxwell> The world is a small place now.
 935 2011-05-13 08:05:17 <wumpus> even if the US would be perfectly bitcoin-proof, there would be lots of other people who can trade with it
 936 2011-05-13 08:05:30 <gmaxwell> Nothing that matters is free of the laws of most of the major countries.
 937 2011-05-13 08:05:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: even if allowing bitcoin puts you on a US trade naughty list? Not likely.
 938 2011-05-13 08:05:51 <wumpus> and I think that's pretty unlikely if you see how lousy they are in curtailing other p2p 
 939 2011-05-13 08:06:00 <jrmithdobbs> seriously
 940 2011-05-13 08:06:03 <wumpus> well look at online poker for example
 941 2011-05-13 08:06:07 <gmaxwell> I don't think that kind of hard legal attack is likely, but don't underestimate it's power.
 942 2011-05-13 08:06:16 <ArtForz> well, preventing rogue miners in a bitcoin-like system should be possible
 943 2011-05-13 08:06:39 <jrmithdobbs> one bill from the US congress and agreement in the eu (bitcoins evil only for drugs guns and kp!) and that'd kill it globally pretty quick
 944 2011-05-13 08:06:41 <gmaxwell> If bitcoin is to be a currency and not just a crappy money laundering thing then it _must_ not be only an underground thing.
 945 2011-05-13 08:06:54 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 946 2011-05-13 08:07:06 <jrmithdobbs> technically
 947 2011-05-13 08:07:19 <jrmithdobbs> the us gov reserves the right to issue currency
 948 2011-05-13 08:07:20 <wumpus> it might start as an underground thing
 949 2011-05-13 08:07:37 <jrmithdobbs> keep that in mind when saying things like "that kind of hard legal attack is[n't] likely"
 950 2011-05-13 08:08:18 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: you're not getting it.
 951 2011-05-13 08:08:27 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: it doesn't relate to p2p
 952 2011-05-13 08:08:33 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: it's not a technical problem
 953 2011-05-13 08:08:35 <wumpus> well likely or not there isn't anything you can do about it is there
 954 2011-05-13 08:08:35 mesees has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 955 2011-05-13 08:08:56 duosrx has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
 956 2011-05-13 08:08:56 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: us gov says it's illegal, now you have to commit tax fraud to use this currency. no more legit companies getting involved.
 957 2011-05-13 08:09:09 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: etc
 958 2011-05-13 08:09:13 <wumpus> so?
 959 2011-05-13 08:09:24 <wumpus> people can still use them to trade even without legit companies getting involved
 960 2011-05-13 08:09:30 <ArtForz> so that reduces the usefulness a lot
 961 2011-05-13 08:09:35 <sipa> that would be bad for bitcoin indeed
 962 2011-05-13 08:09:38 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: for what?
 963 2011-05-13 08:09:47 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: drugs, laundering, kp, and guns.
 964 2011-05-13 08:09:57 duosrx has joined
 965 2011-05-13 08:10:00 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: reinforcing the ban that happened in the first place. causing it to spread globally
 966 2011-05-13 08:10:02 <ArtForz> you forgot offshore gambling *g*
 967 2011-05-13 08:10:05 <sipa> that'd make bitcoin an outlaw currency
 968 2011-05-13 08:10:26 <sipa> but facebook credits aren't illegal, it seems
 969 2011-05-13 08:10:30 <sipa> why would bitcoin be?
 970 2011-05-13 08:10:31 <gmaxwell> When you outlaw bitcoin— only outlaws will have bitcoin!
 971 2011-05-13 08:10:34 <gmaxwell> oh wait...
 972 2011-05-13 08:10:52 <wumpus> jrmithdobbs: but what is your point? what do you want to do against it?
 973 2011-05-13 08:11:05 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: my point is just that it's a real risk
 974 2011-05-13 08:11:09 <wumpus> they can make it very difficult to use cryptocurrencies in the short term, that's right
 975 2011-05-13 08:11:35 <jrmithdobbs> they can make it illegal within their borders for merchants to accept it
 976 2011-05-13 08:11:41 <jrmithdobbs> 03:04 < gmaxwell> When you outlaw bitcoin— only outlaws will have bitcoin!
 977 2011-05-13 08:11:51 <jrmithdobbs> then it becomes just like marijuana prohibition
 978 2011-05-13 08:12:13 <jrmithdobbs> there was never a good reason originally except for racism and ignorance but since it's a crime now the criminal element is mixed up in it and that's their excuse for keeping it that way
 979 2011-05-13 08:12:15 <wumpus> which kind of doesn't work either
 980 2011-05-13 08:12:18 <jeremias> it's just numbers on my hard drive, how can they outlaw that
 981 2011-05-13 08:12:44 <gmaxwell> great. I wouldn't have a lot of use for a few kilos of MJ in my basement.... likewise I wouldn't have a lot of use for outlaw bitcoin.
 982 2011-05-13 08:13:00 * gmaxwell dcc send jeremias child_porn.jpg
 983 2011-05-13 08:13:06 <wumpus> well then sell your coins
 984 2011-05-13 08:13:31 <jrmithdobbs> wumpus: dismissing these fears is pretty harmful really
 985 2011-05-13 08:13:34 <wumpus> someone else might have use for them :)
 986 2011-05-13 08:13:58 <ArtForz> well, it's not like you can do anything about it
 987 2011-05-13 08:14:00 <wumpus> so acknowledging them is useful?
 988 2011-05-13 08:14:06 <wumpus> what use is fear at all?
 989 2011-05-13 08:14:16 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: except convince legit merchants to get in on it
 990 2011-05-13 08:14:21 <wumpus> as ArtForzsays what do you want to do about it
 991 2011-05-13 08:14:27 <gmaxwell> In any case. I don't think anyone has said that bitcoin can be totally stopped. My view is that it can be very seriously disrupted / reduced in value. I don't know how likely this is, I doubt it— by the time someone with the power to do it really notices it may be too hard.... but it's a risk.
 992 2011-05-13 08:14:34 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: and convince them to do the marketing legwork
 993 2011-05-13 08:14:53 <gmaxwell> And convince people doing shady crap to at least keep it quiet if not cut it out.
 994 2011-05-13 08:15:25 <wumpus> yeah I agree on that
 995 2011-05-13 08:15:34 <gmaxwell> Prepare good material for the counter arguments. Gather support from respectable people and orgs.
 996 2011-05-13 08:15:43 <ArtForz> well, I'm pretty sure a large entity could severely damage bitcoin with enough resources and lobbying
 997 2011-05-13 08:15:45 <gmaxwell> Find new applications which can't be done without bitcoin.
 998 2011-05-13 08:16:01 <molecular> I think the more legit businesses use bitcoin, the harder it will be to illegalize it... so maybe that answers the question what we can do about it (proactively)?
 999 2011-05-13 08:16:03 bitcoiner has joined
1000 2011-05-13 08:16:10 <jrmithdobbs> find some datacenters willing to colo the space heaters
1001 2011-05-13 08:16:11 <jrmithdobbs> etc
1002 2011-05-13 08:16:22 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
1003 2011-05-13 08:16:30 <gmaxwell> Convince the teenage children of politicians to use it, since they'll inevitably translate the technology for them.
1004 2011-05-13 08:16:52 <jeremias> lol I bet they are already using them, for silk road
1005 2011-05-13 08:16:54 <molecular> gmaxwell, hey, good point, target children, lol
1006 2011-05-13 08:17:19 <gmaxwell> Whoever did the weusecoins video— I think it's pretty darn good btw.
1007 2011-05-13 08:17:50 <gmaxwell> I showed it to a friend and all his initial questions after seeing it were good ones.
1008 2011-05-13 08:17:53 <jrmithdobbs> molecular: works for every other industry
1009 2011-05-13 08:18:03 <molecular> hehe, and in retrospect, they got payed for it pretty damn well, too
1010 2011-05-13 08:18:08 redengin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1011 2011-05-13 08:18:17 <jrmithdobbs> if they held especially
1012 2011-05-13 08:18:36 <molecular> jrmithdobbs, I'm sure they did. they said they will use it for more to follow
1013 2011-05-13 08:19:04 <molecular> jrmithdobbs, I think even to put up a new bounty
1014 2011-05-13 08:19:11 <molecular> jrmithdobbs, so they probably held
1015 2011-05-13 08:22:05 * gmaxwell sleeps
1016 2011-05-13 08:24:26 <Diablo-D3> lol
1017 2011-05-13 08:24:33 <Diablo-D3> I have created an awesome bug
1018 2011-05-13 08:24:38 <Diablo-D3> my hash meter says 1ghz
1019 2011-05-13 08:24:40 <Diablo-D3> er
1020 2011-05-13 08:24:42 <Diablo-D3> 1gh
1021 2011-05-13 08:24:45 Herodes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1022 2011-05-13 08:25:01 <molecular> is it a bug in hasmeter or somewhere else?
1023 2011-05-13 08:25:06 <Diablo-D3> somewhere else
1024 2011-05-13 08:25:20 <molecular> so it's not hashing correctly?
1025 2011-05-13 08:25:26 <Diablo-D3> I God hope so.
1026 2011-05-13 08:25:49 <Diablo-D3> Im hard benchmarking to find out
1027 2011-05-13 08:25:54 <molecular> well, otherwise you would've created one hell of shortcut by accident
1028 2011-05-13 08:26:01 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: just hook it up to testnet and see what happens
1029 2011-05-13 08:26:08 <Diablo-D3> its creating valid pool shares, btw
1030 2011-05-13 08:26:22 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: if you bump the difficulty in 10 minutes you'll know ;P
1031 2011-05-13 08:26:47 <gmaxwell> just generate diff 1 shares, validate them on the cpu, and time them.
1032 2011-05-13 08:26:48 <molecular> Diablo-D3, you say again to me "diff1-solutions per second doesn't tell you anything" ;)
1033 2011-05-13 08:26:58 <Diablo-D3> molecular: it doesnt
1034 2011-05-13 08:27:07 <ArtForz> molecular: over enough time, it does
1035 2011-05-13 08:27:18 <Diablo-D3> the math is approximately 45/mhash*75 minutes for 50.
1036 2011-05-13 08:27:18 <gmaxwell> inverse the mean time between samples is the maximum likelyhold estimation of the rate.
1037 2011-05-13 08:27:34 <ArtForz> yep
1038 2011-05-13 08:27:47 <ArtForz> you just need a lot of samples to get a useful stddev
1039 2011-05-13 08:28:06 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: a 5850 doing 1ghash would be impossible, right?
1040 2011-05-13 08:28:09 <ArtForz> yes
1041 2011-05-13 08:28:17 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1042 2011-05-13 08:28:29 <jrmithdobbs> 280-310 max
1043 2011-05-13 08:28:34 <jrmithdobbs> oc'ed
1044 2011-05-13 08:28:42 <ArtForz> unless you changed the laws of physics or mathematics, ain't gonna happen
1045 2011-05-13 08:28:48 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: 281474976710656/(65535*avg_seconds_between_d1)=h/s
1046 2011-05-13 08:29:06 Herodes has joined
1047 2011-05-13 08:29:08 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I like mine better
1048 2011-05-13 08:29:14 <gmaxwell> Mine is actually right.
1049 2011-05-13 08:29:19 <ArtForz> gmaxwell: for H==0 it's a lot simpler
1050 2011-05-13 08:29:46 <Diablo-D3> its coming up on 50.
1051 2011-05-13 08:30:39 <ne0futur> http://www.google.com/trends?q=bitcoin
1052 2011-05-13 08:31:17 <ArtForz> gmaxwell: and yours is not 100% correct either
1053 2011-05-13 08:31:19 basic_ed has joined
1054 2011-05-13 08:31:31 <ArtForz> it's be correct for hash < target
1055 2011-05-13 08:31:35 <ArtForz> not for hash <= target
1056 2011-05-13 08:31:46 <gmaxwell> aww. off by one!
1057 2011-05-13 08:31:46 basic_ed has quit (Client Quit)
1058 2011-05-13 08:31:50 <gmaxwell> foiled again.
1059 2011-05-13 08:31:55 <ArtForz> yeah
1060 2011-05-13 08:32:42 <Diablo-D3> 50
1061 2011-05-13 08:32:49 <Diablo-D3> [5/13/11 4:26:59 AM] Block 50 found on Cypress (#1)
1062 2011-05-13 08:33:01 <Diablo-D3> [5/13/11 4:13:10 AM] Block 1 found on Cypress (#1)
1063 2011-05-13 08:33:02 <ArtForz> took me a while to understand why bitcoin has a +1 in it's "calculate "length" of block for best chain calc" formula
1064 2011-05-13 08:33:05 <Diablo-D3> thats about... 300.
1065 2011-05-13 08:33:06 <Diablo-D3> Goddamnit.
1066 2011-05-13 08:33:27 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
1067 2011-05-13 08:34:02 <ArtForz> lol
1068 2011-05-13 08:34:12 <dissipate> ArtForz, are you a bitcoin millionaire yet with these prices? :D
1069 2011-05-13 08:34:24 <ArtForz> ... not quite
1070 2011-05-13 08:34:27 <jrmithdobbs> haha
1071 2011-05-13 08:34:31 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1072 2011-05-13 08:34:33 <dissipate> hot damn!
1073 2011-05-13 08:34:37 <sethsethseth____> close....
1074 2011-05-13 08:34:39 <gmaxwell> The market isn't liquid enough for anyone to be much of a millionaire! :)
1075 2011-05-13 08:34:51 <dissipate> https://www.bitcoin4cash.com/ has sold out completely
1076 2011-05-13 08:34:54 <ArtForz> about half a mil
1077 2011-05-13 08:35:01 <dissipate> the frenzy is in full swing
1078 2011-05-13 08:35:14 <dissipate> sweeeeeeet!
1079 2011-05-13 08:35:19 <ArtForz> at 7.60, that is
1080 2011-05-13 08:35:23 <sethsethseth____> i think you could sell half a mil and only drop the price 2 or 3 $ if you did it right
1081 2011-05-13 08:35:24 <dissipate> a well deserve half mil no doubt. :D
1082 2011-05-13 08:36:02 <Diablo-D3> AHAAA
1083 2011-05-13 08:36:05 <ArtForz> though I suspect the moment someone drops 10kbtc or so we're back down to < $5
1084 2011-05-13 08:36:07 <Diablo-D3> found the bug I hope
1085 2011-05-13 08:36:08 peck has joined
1086 2011-05-13 08:36:40 <dissipate> ArtForz, you could crash the market no doubt. :D  please do so i can snap up more for cheap!
1087 2011-05-13 08:36:56 <Diablo-D3> ahh this is more like it
1088 2011-05-13 08:36:59 <Diablo-D3> 78mhash
1089 2011-05-13 08:40:35 peck has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1090 2011-05-13 08:41:39 echelon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1091 2011-05-13 08:41:40 dbitcoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1092 2011-05-13 08:42:17 echelon has joined
1093 2011-05-13 08:42:43 dbitcoin has joined
1094 2011-05-13 08:48:04 peck has joined
1095 2011-05-13 08:48:34 <comboy> somebody cash out please, this is insanity ;p
1096 2011-05-13 08:48:58 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: just dump it and then buy it all back at the reduced price ;P
1097 2011-05-13 08:49:03 <Diablo-D3> lol
1098 2011-05-13 08:49:11 <Diablo-D3> no lets see if we can get to $10
1099 2011-05-13 08:50:46 <molecular> noone in his right mind would cash out more than he needs to at this point
1100 2011-05-13 08:53:42 <gjs278> I'm already even now so I don't care
1101 2011-05-13 08:54:45 <molecular> you're even in the sense that "if you _would_ sell now" or did you actually get your USD/EUR out already?
1102 2011-05-13 08:56:37 <mtrlt> i'd be even even if $/BTC is 0
1103 2011-05-13 08:57:00 <gjs278> no I've got my money
1104 2011-05-13 08:57:12 <gjs278> I sold 50 coins today at 5.75 and that was it
1105 2011-05-13 08:57:21 <gjs278> I've got 52 more in my wallet but I'm already $2 over
1106 2011-05-13 08:58:01 <gjs278> this is factoring in all costs including the money it would cost to run the cards for the rest of may electric wise
1107 2011-05-13 08:58:20 <gjs278> every last case fan or heatsink I've bought due to this project has been covered
1108 2011-05-13 08:58:36 <Raccoon> just throw your computer in the fridge
1109 2011-05-13 08:58:41 <jrmithdobbs> this shit's crazy
1110 2011-05-13 08:58:43 <Raccoon> you don't need food
1111 2011-05-13 08:58:52 <gjs278> we have an extra fridge downstairs
1112 2011-05-13 08:58:59 <gjs278> so fuck it, computer goes in fridge now
1113 2011-05-13 08:59:04 <Raccoon> lol
1114 2011-05-13 08:59:12 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1115 2011-05-13 08:59:23 sethsethseth has joined
1116 2011-05-13 08:59:29 <gjs278> http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/7488/screenshotdq.png these are my temps at the moment
1117 2011-05-13 08:59:30 <manveru> bad idea :P
1118 2011-05-13 08:59:43 <comboy> molecular: noon in his right mind would cash out more than he needs now? Not sure about it, everybody sure is positive, but if somebody bigger cashes out bubble may burst a bit (not saying it's all bubble in general, but some corrections should be happening even with fast growth)
1119 2011-05-13 09:00:00 <gjs278> I was afraid $6 was the bubble end
1120 2011-05-13 09:00:12 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1121 2011-05-13 09:00:19 <gjs278> so I just got rid of enough to make myself even so I can hold onto these 52+ coins until the end of time
1122 2011-05-13 09:00:49 <Raccoon> back down to 7.55
1123 2011-05-13 09:01:20 <Diablo-D3> lol
1124 2011-05-13 09:01:26 <nathan7> lala
1125 2011-05-13 09:01:34 <nathan7> I'm rich
1126 2011-05-13 09:01:47 <nathan7> I own more in bitcoins than in euros
1127 2011-05-13 09:01:55 <mtrlt> lol
1128 2011-05-13 09:02:10 <manveru> likewise... and i only have 50 btc :P
1129 2011-05-13 09:02:21 * nathan7 has 20
1130 2011-05-13 09:02:31 <nathan7> I had 700 once, and I sold them for $47, back in the day D:
1131 2011-05-13 09:02:37 <nathan7> I'm still sad abou tthat
1132 2011-05-13 09:02:39 <manveru> ^^;
1133 2011-05-13 09:02:44 <mtrlt> -_-
1134 2011-05-13 09:02:50 <nathan7> 700 * 7.5501 U.S. dollars = 3 712.20763 Euros
1135 2011-05-13 09:02:54 <nathan7> O_O
1136 2011-05-13 09:03:01 <nathan7> someone shoot me
1137 2011-05-13 09:03:06 * mtrlt *BANG*
1138 2011-05-13 09:03:10 * nathan7 dies
1139 2011-05-13 09:03:14 <mtrlt> yay
1140 2011-05-13 09:03:17 * nathan7 respawns
1141 2011-05-13 09:03:23 <mtrlt> wat
1142 2011-05-13 09:03:28 <mtrlt> :0
1143 2011-05-13 09:03:31 <nathan7> actually I'm made out of nanobots
1144 2011-05-13 09:03:42 <mtrlt> lol
1145 2011-05-13 09:03:52 <manveru> and they eat bullets for breakfast?
1146 2011-05-13 09:04:03 <nathan7> I actually assimilate them
1147 2011-05-13 09:04:53 <manveru> same thing
1148 2011-05-13 09:05:15 <nathan7> resistance is futile
1149 2011-05-13 09:05:24 <manveru> meh, i wish coinpal didn't shut down
1150 2011-05-13 09:05:51 <manveru> no way to buy any btc anymore
1151 2011-05-13 09:05:54 <nathan7> hmm
1152 2011-05-13 09:07:27 <krekbwoy> is there any stats on which gpu performs the best mining wise?
1153 2011-05-13 09:07:38 <manveru> in the wiki
1154 2011-05-13 09:07:41 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
1155 2011-05-13 09:07:43 devrandom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1156 2011-05-13 09:07:51 <krekbwoy> thnx
1157 2011-05-13 09:08:01 <manveru> of course it's all lies to make you buy inferior hardware :)
1158 2011-05-13 09:08:32 devrandom has joined
1159 2011-05-13 09:09:12 * nathan7 hugs midnightmagic 
1160 2011-05-13 09:10:46 <mtrlt> how to get the total amount of btc in existence from gribble?
1161 2011-05-13 09:10:51 <mtrlt> ;;bc,total
1162 2011-05-13 09:10:54 <gribble> Error: "bc,total" is not a valid command.
1163 2011-05-13 09:11:48 <nathan7> bitcoincharts has it
1164 2011-05-13 09:12:24 <mtrlt> hm true
1165 2011-05-13 09:12:52 <mtrlt> and of course i could do [bc,blocks]*50 ..
1166 2011-05-13 09:13:40 <sipa> +1
1167 2011-05-13 09:13:48 <sipa> block 0 also introduced 50 BTC
1168 2011-05-13 09:14:07 <krekbwoy> manveru: so you mean that 5xxx series scores so high?
1169 2011-05-13 09:14:58 larsivi has joined
1170 2011-05-13 09:15:09 <nathan7> €32.58 million worth of bitcoins in existence.. whoa
1171 2011-05-13 09:15:20 <mtrlt> yep
1172 2011-05-13 09:15:22 <nathan7> hmm, physics test
1173 2011-05-13 09:15:31 <sipa> nathan7: no
1174 2011-05-13 09:15:37 <sipa> that's a pointless number
1175 2011-05-13 09:16:08 <sipa> we don't know how much has been lost, and trying to sell or buy a significant part of it would make prices move very quickly
1176 2011-05-13 09:16:10 LanceRushing has quit (Quit: LanceRushing)
1177 2011-05-13 09:18:38 <jaromil> gmoin
1178 2011-05-13 09:19:02 <jaromil> oh, btc is at 7 dolla. jeez
1179 2011-05-13 09:19:19 <sipa> 7.7...
1180 2011-05-13 09:19:25 <jaromil> love that number
1181 2011-05-13 09:19:31 <jaromil> wish i could buy SC2 with it lol
1182 2011-05-13 09:23:33 <Diablo-D3> whahaha
1183 2011-05-13 09:23:35 <Diablo-D3> this is cool
1184 2011-05-13 09:23:53 malnilion_ has joined
1185 2011-05-13 09:24:14 <Diablo-D3> I may have eaked out another 2 mhash
1186 2011-05-13 09:25:29 malnilion has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1187 2011-05-13 09:25:45 AnonX has joined
1188 2011-05-13 09:32:03 <sethsethseth> lol this is so great, i just had these clowns write a patch to make a sound file play when i recieve/generate coins
1189 2011-05-13 09:32:17 <sethsethseth> looking for a good jackpot sound
1190 2011-05-13 09:35:10 <thedrs> ;;bg,gen 360000
1191 2011-05-13 09:35:10 <gribble> Error: "bg,gen" is not a valid command.
1192 2011-05-13 09:35:17 <thedrs> ;;bc,gen 360000
1193 2011-05-13 09:35:18 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 360000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 2.30011397431 BTC per day and 0.095838082263 BTC per hour.
1194 2011-05-13 09:35:26 mtrlt_ has joined
1195 2011-05-13 09:35:33 <thedrs> ;;bc,stats
1196 2011-05-13 09:35:35 <gribble> Current Blocks: 123628 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 1363 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 203702.95552418
1197 2011-05-13 09:36:29 <thedrs> ;;bc,mtgox
1198 2011-05-13 09:36:30 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.99,"low":5.3511,"vol":51386,"buy":7.6001,"sell":7.69,"last":7.6012}}
1199 2011-05-13 09:37:14 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1200 2011-05-13 09:41:45 <jaromil> sethsethseth: hateful. seen breakning bad E13 S2 (last second season)?
1201 2011-05-13 09:42:55 <UukGoblin> hahah
1202 2011-05-13 09:43:14 <UukGoblin> where walter jr opened this shitty website to help his father? ;-]
1203 2011-05-13 09:43:52 <jaromil> yea
1204 2011-05-13 09:44:11 <jaromil> and mr white just wanted to CRUSH his computer lol
1205 2011-05-13 09:44:27 <UukGoblin> that was srsly one of the ugliest sites I've seen in a while ;-]
1206 2011-05-13 09:44:29 RazielZ has joined
1207 2011-05-13 09:44:37 <UukGoblin> yellow comic sans on green background
1208 2011-05-13 09:44:41 <jaromil> ahahahahah like geocities
1209 2011-05-13 09:44:43 <UukGoblin> yeah
1210 2011-05-13 09:44:50 <sipa> with <marquee> ?
1211 2011-05-13 09:44:54 <UukGoblin> yeah
1212 2011-05-13 09:44:58 <molecular> well, for _some_ reason, it attracted quite some funds later ;)
1213 2011-05-13 09:45:06 <UukGoblin> heh
1214 2011-05-13 09:45:22 <molecular> I'll use that style on my pages, too. godda be something about it
1215 2011-05-13 09:45:58 <UukGoblin> who needs meth when we have bitcoins
1216 2011-05-13 09:46:00 [DusT] has joined
1217 2011-05-13 09:46:40 <jaromil> meth addicts and the cop friends that can cook it :)
1218 2011-05-13 09:47:00 <jaromil> so that we can keep paying taxes to have more cops chase kids on da street
1219 2011-05-13 09:48:21 <jaromil> anyway BrBa is an awesome series
1220 2011-05-13 09:49:50 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1221 2011-05-13 09:50:32 dissipate has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1222 2011-05-13 09:50:40 redwizard_kde has joined
1223 2011-05-13 09:50:49 <redwizard_kde> hi...
1224 2011-05-13 09:51:42 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1225 2011-05-13 09:51:53 <topi`> jaromil: I want to buy one Milkymist board, do you know how to get them?
1226 2011-05-13 09:52:02 RazielZ has joined
1227 2011-05-13 09:52:02 <topi`> sebastien had two yesterday ;) I should have asked him
1228 2011-05-13 09:52:33 <redwizard_kde> having some trouble getting bitcoin to work on kubuntu, anyone know the easiest way? i've downloaded the tar and i cant figure out how to run the gui(bin/32/bitcoin)
1229 2011-05-13 09:52:46 <jaromil> they had them for sale yesterday
1230 2011-05-13 09:52:54 <topi`> jaromil: damn! I missed it :(
1231 2011-05-13 09:52:57 <jaromil> now he is driving south i think
1232 2011-05-13 09:53:09 <topi`> yes, if he has woken up :)
1233 2011-05-13 09:53:13 <jaromil> i think so
1234 2011-05-13 09:53:19 Netsniper has joined
1235 2011-05-13 09:53:58 * redwizard_kde decides to be dirty and run the windows version of bitcoin on his kubuntu machine
1236 2011-05-13 09:54:12 <jaromil> here is the online shop http://hackable-devices.org/search/products/?criteria=milkymist
1237 2011-05-13 09:54:13 <topi`> ArtForz: what are the concrete limitations on FPGA clock rates? if I e.g. synthesize a fully pipelined SHA256 block, is the limiting factor the exact propagation of clock signal?
1238 2011-05-13 09:54:45 <sipa> redwizard_kde: ironic, since it was built on an ubuntu system as well
1239 2011-05-13 09:57:54 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * re1c7429 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Added multiple vector widths, -v now requires a number - http://bit.ly/iioT41
1240 2011-05-13 09:59:36 <topi`> jaromil: the price in the shop is unfortunately a bit high :/
1241 2011-05-13 09:59:42 <redwizard_kde> sipa: just cant seem to make it run
1242 2011-05-13 09:59:47 <topi`> I guess it could go down if they start producing more volume
1243 2011-05-13 09:59:56 * redwizard_kde wonders if a 64bit core is causing problems
1244 2011-05-13 10:01:15 <nathan7> Hi wizardy
1245 2011-05-13 10:01:20 <redwizard_kde> is there a "package" for bitcoin?
1246 2011-05-13 10:01:27 <redwizard_kde> i.e. sudo apt-get install bitcoin
1247 2011-05-13 10:01:34 <UukGoblin> redwizard_kde, yes
1248 2011-05-13 10:01:36 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: jesus, I think I've squeezed every last ounce of power I can
1249 2011-05-13 10:01:37 <topi`> redwizard_kde: why not compile it yourself :)
1250 2011-05-13 10:01:39 <nathan7> There is? Nice.
1251 2011-05-13 10:01:40 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: without going to bfi
1252 2011-05-13 10:01:45 <redwizard_kde> hi nathan7, trying to pursuade it to work on this machine
1253 2011-05-13 10:01:46 <sipa> redwizard_kde: which version of bitcoin?
1254 2011-05-13 10:01:47 <topi`> redwizard_kde: take the source with autotools support, and off you go
1255 2011-05-13 10:01:48 * nathan7 is happy
1256 2011-05-13 10:01:57 <UukGoblin> redwizard_kde, there's http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/bitcoin but I think it's CLI only
1257 2011-05-13 10:01:59 <topi`> autoreconf -i && ./configure
1258 2011-05-13 10:02:01 <redwizard_kde> topi`: some things in linux are still not obvious to me
1259 2011-05-13 10:02:12 <topi`> redwizard_kde: oh, you can just follow instructions
1260 2011-05-13 10:02:16 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz, UukGoblin: around 275 /w -v 4 -w 128 on radeon 5850 @ 765.
1261 2011-05-13 10:02:24 <Diablo-D3> if I go any faster, it might explode.
1262 2011-05-13 10:02:36 <UukGoblin> Diablo-D3, bfi_int!
1263 2011-05-13 10:02:41 <UukGoblin> you know you want it ;-]
1264 2011-05-13 10:02:45 <Diablo-D3> not tonight
1265 2011-05-13 10:02:54 <Diablo-D3> and I shouldnt have been screwing around with the shit I was
1266 2011-05-13 10:02:57 * nathan7 hops around
1267 2011-05-13 10:03:27 * UukGoblin knows the feeling
1268 2011-05-13 10:03:28 <redwizard_kde> ok i have the source in the tar i downloaded
1269 2011-05-13 10:03:42 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1270 2011-05-13 10:03:54 <redwizard_kde> no build options for linux in the linux tar...
1271 2011-05-13 10:03:56 <redwizard_kde> >.<
1272 2011-05-13 10:04:19 * nathan7 hops around
1273 2011-05-13 10:04:30 * nathan7 bounces
1274 2011-05-13 10:04:35 <Diablo-D3> ArtForz: is 275 close to the absolute maximum your kernel can go without bfi?
1275 2011-05-13 10:04:39 <UukGoblin> nathan7, just how many bitcoins have you got? ;-]
1276 2011-05-13 10:04:41 <redwizard_kde> pretty sure i shouldn't be using makefile.unix >.>
1277 2011-05-13 10:04:56 <nathan7> UukGoblin: 20
1278 2011-05-13 10:05:01 <nathan7> and a little more
1279 2011-05-13 10:05:07 <UukGoblin> srsly?
1280 2011-05-13 10:05:08 <nathan7> midnightmagic gave me coins once, and I kept them
1281 2011-05-13 10:05:21 <UukGoblin> I remember you were here before I joined
1282 2011-05-13 10:05:22 <nathan7> I keep thinking of those 700 I once had and stupidly sold
1283 2011-05-13 10:05:33 <UukGoblin> mhm
1284 2011-05-13 10:05:38 <nathan7> Back in the day...
1285 2011-05-13 10:05:44 <nathan7> When my desktop could still gen coins
1286 2011-05-13 10:05:49 <topi`> nathan7: well, future is difficult to forecast
1287 2011-05-13 10:05:53 <nathan7> 200 of those were my very own self-generated coins
1288 2011-05-13 10:05:54 <Diablo-D3> that isnt it
1289 2011-05-13 10:05:57 <Diablo-D3> those 700 you sold
1290 2011-05-13 10:06:04 <Diablo-D3> generated bitcoin interest
1291 2011-05-13 10:06:09 <nathan7> True, true.
1292 2011-05-13 10:06:16 <nathan7> But, causality.
1293 2011-05-13 10:06:22 <nathan7> What has happened, happened.
1294 2011-05-13 10:06:28 <topi`> nathan7: and we all, as upcoming bitcoin millionaires, will be indebted to your sacrifices ;)
1295 2011-05-13 10:06:31 <nathan7> And couldn't have happened any other way.
1296 2011-05-13 10:06:40 <nathan7> And 500 of them were niekie's
1297 2011-05-13 10:07:18 Netsniper has joined
1298 2011-05-13 10:08:29 <redwizard_kde> does github have a makefile for debian then
1299 2011-05-13 10:09:16 malnilion has joined
1300 2011-05-13 10:09:55 <nathan7> I sold niekie cookies
1301 2011-05-13 10:10:19 <nathan7> Thus you all will be indebted to my grandma, as upcoming bitcoin millionaires.
1302 2011-05-13 10:10:22 <BlueMatt> can we get this idiot banned: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=8135.0
1303 2011-05-13 10:10:40 malnilion_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1304 2011-05-13 10:10:59 <BlueMatt> or at least kicked off the dev forum
1305 2011-05-13 10:11:32 thedrs has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1306 2011-05-13 10:12:52 skeledrew has joined
1307 2011-05-13 10:13:50 <nathan7> Where'd bitbot go?
1308 2011-05-13 10:14:16 <nathan7> ;;bc,mtgox
1309 2011-05-13 10:14:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.99,"low":5.3511,"vol":51330,"buy":7.6947,"sell":7.6999,"last":7.6947}}
1310 2011-05-13 10:14:21 <nathan7> Nice.
1311 2011-05-13 10:15:10 prax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1312 2011-05-13 10:15:40 prax has joined
1313 2011-05-13 10:19:30 Fnar has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
1314 2011-05-13 10:21:13 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1315 2011-05-13 10:21:31 Fnar has joined
1316 2011-05-13 10:23:48 skeledrew has joined
1317 2011-05-13 10:26:51 <redwizard_kde> great
1318 2011-05-13 10:26:59 <redwizard_kde> my son hit reset button
1319 2011-05-13 10:27:15 <topi`> it's dangerous to have sons roaming around ;)
1320 2011-05-13 10:27:25 <redwizard_kde> now bitcoin on my windows machine is saying error loading blkindex.dat
1321 2011-05-13 10:27:38 <topi`> redwizard_kde: just remove the blkindex.dat, it will reload and re-create it
1322 2011-05-13 10:27:46 <redwizard_kde> mmm joy
1323 2011-05-13 10:27:49 <redwizard_kde> brb
1324 2011-05-13 10:28:50 <topi`> maybe there should be code in the client to abandon and re-create the blkindex whenever the software deems it unusable
1325 2011-05-13 10:28:56 <redwizard_kde> where is it kept?
1326 2011-05-13 10:29:14 <topi`> in the bitcoin directory, in linux it is .bitcoin but dunno about windows
1327 2011-05-13 10:29:19 <topi`> it's in the FAQ I think.
1328 2011-05-13 10:30:17 Incitatus has joined
1329 2011-05-13 10:30:33 <BlueMatt> its in AppData/Application Data
1330 2011-05-13 10:30:37 <BlueMatt> depending on the os version
1331 2011-05-13 10:31:32 <redwizard_kde> ty
1332 2011-05-13 10:31:53 <redwizard_kde> now back to working out how to get it on this machine :)
1333 2011-05-13 10:34:37 skeledrew1 has joined
1334 2011-05-13 10:35:56 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1335 2011-05-13 10:44:13 <molecular> what's "backed by gold" in german?
1336 2011-05-13 10:44:46 kreal has quit (!~kris@ip1.c70.frb232.cust.comxnet.dk|Remote host closed the connection)
1337 2011-05-13 10:46:26 <BlueMatt> you mean like a currency is backed by gold?
1338 2011-05-13 10:47:01 <BlueMatt> "mit Gold gesichert" Id say, but then again my german aint perfect
1339 2011-05-13 10:48:10 <JFK911> fliegende kinderscheisse
1340 2011-05-13 10:48:56 <justmoon> I'd say "mit Gold gedeckt" - see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4hrungsdeckung
1341 2011-05-13 10:50:12 <Blitzboom> jep, goldgedeckt
1342 2011-05-13 10:50:36 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1343 2011-05-13 10:51:47 jivvz has joined
1344 2011-05-13 10:54:01 * redwizard_kde is installing boost...
1345 2011-05-13 10:55:36 TheAncientGoat has joined
1346 2011-05-13 11:00:06 <jrmithdobbs> hrm, this is weird
1347 2011-05-13 11:02:23 <jrmithdobbs> getting this when i launch poclbm from runit:
1348 2011-05-13 11:02:24 <jrmithdobbs> http://pastebin.ca/2058037
1349 2011-05-13 11:02:44 <jrmithdobbs> but if i login and su poclbm -- -c 'poclbm <stuff>' it works
1350 2011-05-13 11:04:20 skeledrew has joined
1351 2011-05-13 11:05:41 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1352 2011-05-13 11:06:10 dvide has joined
1353 2011-05-13 11:06:32 <redwizard_kde> now building wxWidgets...
1354 2011-05-13 11:07:32 <jrmithdobbs> i can literally just ./run in the directory as root and it launches everything fine but whin runsv launches it no bueno
1355 2011-05-13 11:08:05 <redwizard_kde> a lack of tasty chocolate is indeed disturbing... :P
1356 2011-05-13 11:09:20 <redwizard_kde> i've got it running on my (slow) windows machine but i'm having to compile everything on this (FAST) kubuntu machine
1357 2011-05-13 11:12:49 <molecular> can we put a rough FLOP value on our hashing network to compare it to other (distributed) computing?
1358 2011-05-13 11:13:12 <jivvz> http://bitcoinwatch.com/ has one
1359 2011-05-13 11:13:18 <jivvz> Network Hashrate TeraFLOP/s 	18708
1360 2011-05-13 11:13:31 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
1361 2011-05-13 11:13:32 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.99,"low":5.3513,"vol":50838,"buy":7.6002,"sell":7.6785,"last":7.617}}
1362 2011-05-13 11:13:34 <jivvz> no idea if it's correct
1363 2011-05-13 11:13:36 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1364 2011-05-13 11:13:48 <molecular> that's sufficient, thanks
1365 2011-05-13 11:14:04 <jivvz> np
1366 2011-05-13 11:14:34 <ArtForz> sounds a bit high
1367 2011-05-13 11:15:10 <molecular> whoops, seti at home: 730 TFLOP/s, bitcoin 18708 TFlop/s <- that can't be right
1368 2011-05-13 11:16:06 <ArtForz> current network is euiv to about 2800 6990s or so
1369 2011-05-13 11:16:13 <molecular> ArtForz, I assume it's not directly comparable (H/s and FLOP/s), because hashing doesn't use floating point
1370 2011-05-13 11:16:23 <molecular> how many flop/s does a 6990 do?
1371 2011-05-13 11:16:40 <ArtForz> 5.1T SP
1372 2011-05-13 11:16:57 <molecular> SP?
1373 2011-05-13 11:17:01 <ArtForz> single precision
1374 2011-05-13 11:17:07 <ArtForz> 1/4 that DP
1375 2011-05-13 11:17:13 <molecular> that makes seti@home look slow
1376 2011-05-13 11:17:24 <ArtForz> setiathome is ~10TFLOPS iirc
1377 2011-05-13 11:17:27 <ArtForz> errr
1378 2011-05-13 11:17:32 <ArtForz> PFLOPS
1379 2011-05-13 11:17:33 <jrmithdobbs> lol stupid python
1380 2011-05-13 11:17:36 <jrmithdobbs> needs LANG set
1381 2011-05-13 11:17:41 <ArtForz> no, wait, sounds right
1382 2011-05-13 11:17:46 <ArtForz> F@H is 10PF ;)
1383 2011-05-13 11:18:44 <ArtForz> well, 9.2, but who's counting
1384 2011-05-13 11:18:51 <molecular> and bitcoin "is" about 14 PF
1385 2011-05-13 11:18:53 <jivvz> im not :)
1386 2011-05-13 11:19:03 <ArtForz> yep
1387 2011-05-13 11:19:44 <ArtForz> a few weeks and we'll prolly be faster than all @Hs combined
1388 2011-05-13 11:20:19 <molecular> it's not a fair comparison, though, because of the simplicity of our algorithm, right?
1389 2011-05-13 11:20:31 <ArtForz> why?
1390 2011-05-13 11:20:51 <molecular> we can more easily run on opencl/cuda?
1391 2011-05-13 11:21:01 <ArtForz> just because we don't make use of all those FPUs doesn't mean they're not there
1392 2011-05-13 11:21:03 <molecular> well, that's true for folding, seti, too
1393 2011-05-13 11:21:18 <ArtForz> yep
1394 2011-05-13 11:21:36 <ArtForz> and this is assuming all hashrate is ATI 5xxx/6xxx
1395 2011-05-13 11:21:39 <molecular> so if we all switched over to folding, their power would rise to 9.2 + 14 PF?
1396 2011-05-13 11:21:49 <ArtForz> dunno how they calc their stats
1397 2011-05-13 11:22:01 <topi`> ArtForz: do you have any tricks to make a FPGA clock faster? especially if it implements a fully pipelined SHA256 core
1398 2011-05-13 11:22:11 <ArtForz> iirc they also report sustained FLOPS, not peak theoretical
1399 2011-05-13 11:22:18 <ArtForz> topi`: nope
1400 2011-05-13 11:22:20 <topi`> ArtForz: I was thinking of getting a board with the LX45 on it to test out
1401 2011-05-13 11:22:25 <ArtForz> other than trying to force map/place to not be stupid
1402 2011-05-13 11:22:27 peck has joined
1403 2011-05-13 11:22:35 <molecular> ok, but... really roughly I can say bitcoin network computation power is comparable to folding@home (I'm pitching to non-technical person)
1404 2011-05-13 11:22:49 <topi`> ArtForz: maybe a clever clock tree would alleviate the propagation times?
1405 2011-05-13 11:22:57 <ArtForz> unlikely
1406 2011-05-13 11:23:10 <ArtForz> the problem isn't prop time, it's nondeterministic prop time
1407 2011-05-13 11:23:14 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|can i run bitcoind on testnet and use pushpool through it still without any problems (for testing my pool setup_
1408 2011-05-13 11:23:16 <topi`> i've never designed anything :D but we had some theory courses in the university
1409 2011-05-13 11:23:26 <ArtForz> a carry bit from the lwoest adder takes a lot longer to affect the output than one in the highest bit
1410 2011-05-13 11:23:42 <topi`> right
1411 2011-05-13 11:24:10 <ArtForz> so the output isn't stable for quite a lot of time
1412 2011-05-13 11:24:16 <topi`> I just read that one can synthesize a LatticePico32 on the Xilinx LX45 at 110 MHz
1413 2011-05-13 11:24:29 <topi`> but I guess that's not a complicated core
1414 2011-05-13 11:24:36 <ArtForz> the tools already can optimize out fixed delays pretty well by using the natural clock tree delay
1415 2011-05-13 11:25:02 <topi`> ok, so that doesn't need hand tuning
1416 2011-05-13 11:25:17 <ArtForz> it's really about optimizing the critical path
1417 2011-05-13 11:25:45 tabsa has joined
1418 2011-05-13 11:25:47 <ArtForz> map/place has a hard time arranging the adders in any useful pattern
1419 2011-05-13 11:25:55 <topi`> so, if there's a path in the pipeline that sucks most, that's the one which limits the clock rate?
1420 2011-05-13 11:25:59 <ArtForz> yep
1421 2011-05-13 11:26:21 <topi`> I wonder what kind of clock rates to expect on a pipelined SHA256 implementation
1422 2011-05-13 11:26:22 <ArtForz> I've had decent results creating a relatively placed macro for the core adder
1423 2011-05-13 11:26:34 <ArtForz> single pipelined... 70-80MHz
1424 2011-05-13 11:26:34 <topi`> if it runs at 100mhz, then it could potentially do 100M hashes per second
1425 2011-05-13 11:26:53 <ArtForz> that is with good placement
1426 2011-05-13 11:27:01 <molecular> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_distributed_computing_projects <- bitcoin listed there @ 15 PFLOPS as fasted distributed computing project ;)
1427 2011-05-13 11:27:02 <topi`> ok
1428 2011-05-13 11:27:05 <ArtForz> with the usual "throw crap all over the place" map does... 40-50MHz
1429 2011-05-13 11:27:21 <topi`> so, what software do you use to synthesize your cores?
1430 2011-05-13 11:27:35 Raziel_ has joined
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1432 2011-05-13 11:28:37 JunK-Y has joined
1433 2011-05-13 11:28:43 <ArtForz> synopsis for synthesis, xilinx map/place/route
1434 2011-05-13 11:29:50 <ArtForz> thoguh xilinx' ISE synthesizer isn't much worse really
1435 2011-05-13 11:30:33 <molecular> bitcoin is currently the fastest "computing infrastructure"? really? "we have the best computer in the world"? that's so nerd-elite
1436 2011-05-13 11:30:38 <ArtForz> it's a pipeline of rather simple functions, don't need a very smart synthesizer to optimize that
1437 2011-05-13 11:30:38 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1438 2011-05-13 11:30:49 <topi`> is the xilinx stuff opensource? if not, does it have a linux version?
1439 2011-05-13 11:31:03 <ArtForz> not open source, but free-as-in-beer for smaller devices
1440 2011-05-13 11:31:08 <topi`> ok
1441 2011-05-13 11:31:10 pokus has joined
1442 2011-05-13 11:31:13 <ArtForz> and yeah, theres 32 and 64 bit win and linux versions
1443 2011-05-13 11:31:22 <topi`> good
1444 2011-05-13 11:31:26 <ArtForz> why on earth they change for the version that can synthesize for large devices... no clue
1445 2011-05-13 11:31:30 <ArtForz> *charge
1446 2011-05-13 11:31:52 pokus has quit (Client Quit)
1447 2011-05-13 11:34:02 <ArtForz> iirc biggest supported in free version is S6 LX75
1448 2011-05-13 11:34:51 anatoly_l has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1449 2011-05-13 11:36:18 <jrmithdobbs> molecular: i have a super computer in my office, p sweet
1450 2011-05-13 11:36:26 <jrmithdobbs> a super computer only capable of very simple math
1451 2011-05-13 11:36:30 <jrmithdobbs> but a super computer!
1452 2011-05-13 11:36:46 <nathan7> it's friday the 13th, on a side note
1453 2011-05-13 11:37:09 <nathan7> I need to find a ladder
1454 2011-05-13 11:37:36 <ArtForz> btw, even a small FPGA can get rather crazy numbers for very simple and parallel problems
1455 2011-05-13 11:38:21 <nathan7> bbl
1456 2011-05-13 11:42:08 <jrmithdobbs> and draw no power
1457 2011-05-13 11:42:21 <ArtForz> not very much
1458 2011-05-13 11:42:22 <jrmithdobbs> well, compared to these damned gpus
1459 2011-05-13 11:42:57 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: kind of come to the conclusion we're gonna have to go fpga to put the crap somewhere that is "not our houses" ;P
1460 2011-05-13 11:43:24 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: been told to diaf by a couple places once we start talking power/heat
1461 2011-05-13 11:43:24 <ArtForz> small example, a S6 LX16 has a theoretical throughput of like 40G 32 bit adds/second
1462 2011-05-13 11:43:45 DukeOfURL has joined
1463 2011-05-13 11:43:53 allied has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1464 2011-05-13 11:44:54 <ArtForz> err, T
1465 2011-05-13 11:45:41 <ArtForz> completely unobtainable of course
1466 2011-05-13 11:47:05 TD[gone] is now known as TD
1467 2011-05-13 11:47:11 <TD> urgh. i wish the logs had timestamps in them.
1468 2011-05-13 11:47:18 <Raccoon> ;;view
1469 2011-05-13 11:47:19 <gribble> #2228 Thu May 12 22:01:53 2011 Raccoon SELL 1.0 custom_windows_utility @ 5 BTC (None)
1470 2011-05-13 11:47:19 <gribble> #2249 Fri May 13 02:58:01 2011 Raccoon BUY 65.0 BTC @ 7.6923 USD ($500 MoneyPak or PayPal)
1471 2011-05-13 11:48:13 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1472 2011-05-13 11:48:21 <redwizard_kde> thought i was doing so well
1473 2011-05-13 11:48:31 <redwizard_kde> now i need to install miniupnpc
1474 2011-05-13 11:48:36 <redwizard_kde> time to take son to playschool
1475 2011-05-13 11:48:37 <redwizard_kde> bbiab
1476 2011-05-13 11:49:08 <sipa> TD: irc logs?
1477 2011-05-13 11:49:54 <TD> bitcoind logs
1478 2011-05-13 11:51:11 Incitatus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1479 2011-05-13 11:53:45 zq has joined
1480 2011-05-13 11:55:44 Speeder has joined
1481 2011-05-13 11:56:18 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1482 2011-05-13 11:59:33 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1483 2011-05-13 12:03:32 <BlueMatt> so, time to do some more wallet encryption testing...anyone want to do some testnet mining?
1484 2011-05-13 12:04:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: testnet in a box?
1485 2011-05-13 12:04:58 <sipa> TD: that shouldn't be too hard to change, all logging is done using a printf macro
1486 2011-05-13 12:09:45 Herodes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1488 2011-05-13 12:11:28 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1489 2011-05-13 12:12:04 eternal1 has joined
1490 2011-05-13 12:14:39 <topi`> ArtForz: since you can make some shortcuts when implementing back-to-back double sha256, how much do you expect to lose performance by implementing only the first stage of a pipelined DoubleSha256?
1491 2011-05-13 12:14:41 <TD> sipa: yeah, i think it used to do that and was taken out
1492 2011-05-13 12:14:46 <TD> some kind of exotic privacy-related attack
1493 2011-05-13 12:15:25 <topi`> ArtForz: and possibly the difference in hardware is not big between a full, single sha256 and a doubleSha256 implementation
1494 2011-05-13 12:15:25 <ArtForz> topi`: about 10%
1495 2011-05-13 12:15:35 <topi`> ArtForz: did you experiment on this?
1496 2011-05-13 12:15:39 <ArtForz> yea
1497 2011-05-13 12:15:43 <topi`> ok
1498 2011-05-13 12:15:59 <topi`> but perhaps you can clock the single-sha a bit faster?
1499 2011-05-13 12:16:06 <ArtForz> possibly
1500 2011-05-13 12:16:45 <TD> ArtForz: oddly, that double spend tx from yesterday was accepted into my nodes memory pool without complaint. i wonder how the guy generated that.
1501 2011-05-13 12:16:55 <ArtForz> wth
1502 2011-05-13 12:17:12 <ArtForz> thats... really odd
1503 2011-05-13 12:17:12 mtrlt_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1504 2011-05-13 12:17:49 <TD> well, hmm
1505 2011-05-13 12:18:01 <TD> i think there might not be any error messages printed if a tx in a block overrides a tx in the memory pool
1506 2011-05-13 12:18:40 noagendamarket has joined
1507 2011-05-13 12:19:04 <ArtForz> yea
1508 2011-05-13 12:19:14 agricocb has joined
1509 2011-05-13 12:19:27 <TD> man the call stack for processing txns in new blocks is so deep
1510 2011-05-13 12:19:28 <ArtForz> currently I think conflicting tx in mem pool just sit around forever
1511 2011-05-13 12:19:35 <TD> i always have to look it up
1512 2011-05-13 12:19:50 <sipa> there is a table that tracks dependencies in the memory pool though, iirc
1513 2011-05-13 12:20:00 <sipa> so noticing a conflict there shouldn't be hard
1514 2011-05-13 12:20:42 <TD> right
1515 2011-05-13 12:21:09 <TD> the section labelled "Check for conflicts" in CTransaction::ConnectInputs only checks the block chain for conflicts
1516 2011-05-13 12:21:13 <TD> memory pool is never checked
1517 2011-05-13 12:21:29 <Blitzboom> interesting criticism of bitcoin: http://www.pds.ewi.tudelft.nl/~victor/bitcoin.html
1518 2011-05-13 12:21:33 <TD> if i restarted my node every day i should have been able to see the errors
1519 2011-05-13 12:22:35 <TD> Blitzboom: hardly
1520 2011-05-13 12:22:49 <sipa> there are really 3 separate sets of transactions that are being kept: the block chain, the wallet, the memory pool
1521 2011-05-13 12:22:55 <Blitzboom> well, more interesting than "IT’S A BUBBLE"
1522 2011-05-13 12:22:56 <TD> Blitzboom: his view of peer to peer would exclude the internet itself
1523 2011-05-13 12:23:02 <sipa> synchronisation between the three is definitely not always perfect
1524 2011-05-13 12:23:07 <TD> i've never met anyone who claims the internet is not peer to peer
1525 2011-05-13 12:23:14 <TD> sipa: yeah i've been wrestling with this in bitcoinj
1526 2011-05-13 12:23:30 <TD> sipa: there are a lot of edge cases that aren't really handled by satoshis code and - more problematically - aren't visibly unhandled
1527 2011-05-13 12:23:31 subpar has joined
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1529 2011-05-13 12:23:45 <ArtForz> yeah, weird definition of p2p
1530 2011-05-13 12:23:48 <sipa> i think the priority rule is: block chain > wallet > memory pool
1531 2011-05-13 12:24:04 <TD> Blitzboom: where did you find it?
1532 2011-05-13 12:24:15 <Blitzboom> it was twittered
1533 2011-05-13 12:24:19 _ape has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1534 2011-05-13 12:24:59 an201 has joined
1535 2011-05-13 12:25:53 an20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1536 2011-05-13 12:25:59 <topi`> which reminds me, we need a p2p twitter network :/
1537 2011-05-13 12:26:19 <ArtForz> by his definition something like usenet isn't p2p either...
1538 2011-05-13 12:27:56 <Marcel> HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|topi`, statusnet is at least federated (and twitter api compatible)
1539 2011-05-13 12:28:40 <doublec> there's a twitter like plugin on freenet
1540 2011-05-13 12:29:12 <doublec> called sone iirc
1541 2011-05-13 12:29:36 TheKid has joined
1542 2011-05-13 12:31:38 gdoteof_home has joined
1543 2011-05-13 12:32:17 <TD> i think the fee equilibrium debates are the closest anyone has come to finding a serious flaw in bitcoins design
1544 2011-05-13 12:32:21 <TD> and i think there are solutions to that
1545 2011-05-13 12:32:28 * TD just didn't manage to convince anyone else he's right yet :-)
1546 2011-05-13 12:33:16 marlowe has joined
1547 2011-05-13 12:34:44 lzsaver has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1548 2011-05-13 12:35:18 <Blitzboom> but for now … bitcoin just WORKS
1549 2011-05-13 12:36:53 <topi`> TD: indeed, I think there shouldn't be a fee to TX something to the network ;)
1550 2011-05-13 12:37:05 <topi`> but then there's the question of incentive towards mining
1551 2011-05-13 12:37:27 <Blitzboom> maybe the incentive to protect everyone’s money would suffice?
1552 2011-05-13 12:37:38 <Blitzboom> so that one would pay just to have a secure network
1553 2011-05-13 12:37:42 <Blitzboom> not sure about that though
1554 2011-05-13 12:38:11 <Blitzboom> because if you don’t *have* to do it, noone will
1555 2011-05-13 12:38:26 <Blitzboom> but i suspect bitrich people would build strong clusters
1556 2011-05-13 12:39:10 <ArtForz> depends, it's still setting up for a tragedy of the commons situation
1557 2011-05-13 12:39:46 <theorbtwo> Are the rpcminers from febuary still the best available for nvidia gpu mining/
1558 2011-05-13 12:39:51 TheKid has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1562 2011-05-13 12:41:43 <TD> topi`: only people who need reversal security should pay a fee
1563 2011-05-13 12:42:03 <BlueMatt> TD: how is that not everyone?
1564 2011-05-13 12:42:07 <TD> topi`: in practice that would mean merchants and businesses. same as today - cost of reversal gets added as a hidden "tax" on regular prices
1565 2011-05-13 12:42:10 <TD> but hopefully much smaller
1566 2011-05-13 12:42:12 <Blitzboom> yeah. who wouldn’t want security?
1567 2011-05-13 12:42:16 <Blitzboom> for his money
1568 2011-05-13 12:42:17 <TD> lots of people don't need it
1569 2011-05-13 12:42:40 <TD> if I pay a family relative or a longtime friend, am I going to reverse that TX? no, they know I have a good job and don't need to d othat
1570 2011-05-13 12:42:44 <BlueMatt> anyone who has money needs it
1571 2011-05-13 12:42:50 <TD> if Google pays me my salary, are they going to reverse the transaction? no
1572 2011-05-13 12:43:01 devon_hillard has joined
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1574 2011-05-13 12:43:01 devon_hillard has joined
1575 2011-05-13 12:43:03 <TD> if there's an internal transfer between different parts of the same organization, will they reverse? no
1576 2011-05-13 12:43:07 <BlueMatt> but the attacker might not like you
1577 2011-05-13 12:43:13 <TD> for many transactions pre-existing trust relationships are fine
1578 2011-05-13 12:43:18 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1579 2011-05-13 12:43:22 <BlueMatt> and might try to reverse google's payment of you (or unconfirm it)
1580 2011-05-13 12:43:30 <BlueMatt> meaning you cant spend the coins
1581 2011-05-13 12:43:44 <TD> they wouldn't know which payment to reverse would they?
1582 2011-05-13 12:44:08 <BlueMatt> true
1583 2011-05-13 12:44:29 <Raccoon> i thought the idea of bitcoin is NO PAYMENT REVERSALS
1584 2011-05-13 12:44:30 <Raccoon> ever
1585 2011-05-13 12:44:43 <BlueMatt> only theoretically
1586 2011-05-13 12:44:48 <TD> that's always been the working assumption
1587 2011-05-13 12:44:51 <TD> i bet it won't end up like that
1588 2011-05-13 12:44:58 <BlueMatt> really? you dont think so
1589 2011-05-13 12:45:02 <TD> if the cost of securing your transaction is higher than the cost of the reversal, you might as well take the chance
1590 2011-05-13 12:45:10 <TD> see the snack machine discussions
1591 2011-05-13 12:45:11 <ArtForz> delay != reversal, but thanks for playing
1592 2011-05-13 12:45:11 <sipa> imagine we throw out the dedicated free-tx zone, and simply say that transactions are ordered according to a priority rule which includes only size, age, and age in memory pool
1593 2011-05-13 12:45:33 <TD> sipa: i think that'd be an improvement for now. it'd make fees basically an auction over an artificially scarce resource
1594 2011-05-13 12:45:42 <sipa> and the only thing miners are allowed to change (not sure how to enforce that though), is the size of blocks
1595 2011-05-13 12:46:41 <TD> ArtForz: right
1596 2011-05-13 12:46:49 <TD> BlueMatt: the worst this theoretical attacker could do is delay things
1597 2011-05-13 12:46:59 <BlueMatt> meh, true
1598 2011-05-13 12:47:01 <TD> not actually prevent my coins from getting through
1599 2011-05-13 12:47:18 <TD> i think the way it'll go is most transactions are [a] free [b] not broadcast
1600 2011-05-13 12:47:25 <TD> as memory pool is also a finite resource :-)
1601 2011-05-13 12:47:29 <ArtForz> yep
1602 2011-05-13 12:47:31 galaxyAbstractor has joined
1603 2011-05-13 12:47:46 <TD> when you have a bunch of coins and you fear reversal, you send them to miner[s] with a fee attached
1604 2011-05-13 12:47:47 <sipa> sent directly to some miner group?
1605 2011-05-13 12:48:00 <TD> the fee pays for computation
1606 2011-05-13 12:48:17 <TD> the higher the fee, the more computation on your transactions is done. part of your fee might include work on the next set of blocks
1607 2011-05-13 12:48:22 <Raccoon> what is the 'size limit' for free transactions?
1608 2011-05-13 12:48:38 <ArtForz> sipa: age in memory pool probably will be rather tricky
1609 2011-05-13 12:48:43 <Raccoon> This transaction is over the size limit.  You can still send it for a fee of 0.01, which goes to the nodes that process your transaction and helps to support the network.  Do you want to pay the fee?
1610 2011-05-13 12:48:46 <TD> in the isolated case that doesn't make much sense, why would you ever pay for more than one block, but if lots of people do that it evens out and what you get is people paying for however much security they need
1611 2011-05-13 12:48:47 <sipa> ArtForz: how so?
1612 2011-05-13 12:49:12 <ArtForz> it only works for clients that are on 24/7
1613 2011-05-13 12:49:22 <sipa> only miners care
1614 2011-05-13 12:49:33 <sipa> and miners are pretty much up 24/7, no?
1615 2011-05-13 12:49:36 <ArtForz> and all miners never restart, right.
1616 2011-05-13 12:49:49 <sacarlson> TD: seems I've seen record of delays of more than 12 hours where I see https://www.mybitcoin.com/ only gives you about 24 hours on an account to be deposited in,  so that time is closing in on not getting paid at times
1617 2011-05-13 12:49:51 <sipa> saving the memory pool to disk and reloading shouldn't be hard
1618 2011-05-13 12:50:25 <ArtForz> still makes em miss transactions
1619 2011-05-13 12:50:37 <sipa> i don't care
1620 2011-05-13 12:50:48 <sipa> it's just in general, to prevent starvation of txs
1621 2011-05-13 12:50:51 <ArtForz> also, how are other nodes supposed to check it?
1622 2011-05-13 12:51:00 <sipa> yes, i know
1623 2011-05-13 12:51:11 <sipa> but as a default policy it already be better than what we have
1624 2011-05-13 12:51:16 <sipa> *may
1625 2011-05-13 12:51:20 <ArtForz> so... every node has to run 24/7 and be connected 100% of the time, or it can't validate blocks
1626 2011-05-13 12:51:34 <ArtForz> and new nodes just have to hope that the list of blocks they are getting is valid
1627 2011-05-13 12:53:13 <ArtForz> you said you want to enforce score for *block validity* you also want pending tx to affect score, ... so, how is a node just joining the network supposed to know which tx were pending for blocks that appeared while it was offline?
1628 2011-05-13 12:53:43 <sipa> through a secondary block chain of course!
1629 2011-05-13 12:53:47 <TD> lol
1630 2011-05-13 12:53:51 <sipa> (and turtles all the way down)
1631 2011-05-13 12:53:56 <ArtForz> ahh, block chains all the way down
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1635 2011-05-13 12:54:19 <TD> reminds me of colossus
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1640 2011-05-13 12:55:24 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
1641 2011-05-13 12:56:02 <sipa> is a "tell me your memory pool, or at least some subset of it"-message in the protocol unreasonable?
1642 2011-05-13 12:56:46 <ArtForz> nope
1643 2011-05-13 12:57:06 <ArtForz> I've been wondering why we don't have that for quite a while
1644 2011-05-13 12:57:31 WakiMiko has joined
1645 2011-05-13 12:58:03 <TD> might as well just push an inv with the mempool contents after ver
1646 2011-05-13 12:58:24 anatoly_l has joined
1647 2011-05-13 12:58:27 <ArtForz> yeah, that should work
1648 2011-05-13 12:58:31 <sipa> or even just sending some part of your memory txid's in a inv message when a new client connects
1649 2011-05-13 12:58:34 <sipa> oh TD beat me to it
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1654 2011-05-13 13:06:39 <acfrazier> is there a web interface available for pushpoold that's open source?
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1667 2011-05-13 13:52:21 <luke-jr> jgarzik: [warn] accept_socket: bad accept: Too many open files
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1671 2011-05-13 14:05:00 <acfrazier> luke-jr, is the source code for your pool available somewhere?
1672 2011-05-13 14:05:31 unomi has joined
1673 2011-05-13 14:06:58 _biohazard_ has joined
1674 2011-05-13 14:08:03 <luke-jr> acfrazier: no
1675 2011-05-13 14:08:29 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1676 2011-05-13 14:08:30 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|btw, how do you know when your pushpool has calc'd a block?
1677 2011-05-13 14:08:57 <acfrazier> will it be at some point?
1678 2011-05-13 14:09:37 <acfrazier> mosi|work, I got mine to work :D
1679 2011-05-13 14:09:50 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|same here finally :P
1680 2011-05-13 14:10:22 <acfrazier> yeah, part of my problem was my bitcoin.conf was improperly configured.
1681 2011-05-13 14:10:30 <acfrazier> the rest was just memcached.
1682 2011-05-13 14:11:14 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|remove the memcached stuff from the server,json and it doesn't even use memcached any moer
1683 2011-05-13 14:11:31 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|that fixed my memcached problem :P
1684 2011-05-13 14:12:16 <acfrazier> ah, see my disk has very slow IOPS for some reason so I figured memcached would be helpful
1685 2011-05-13 14:13:20 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|i still dont know how to detect if a block is actually completed though in the pool
1686 2011-05-13 14:14:21 skeledrew has joined
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1688 2011-05-13 14:18:02 cosurg1 is now known as cosurgiFB
1689 2011-05-13 14:18:08 <acfrazier> I still have to do up my webinterface
1690 2011-05-13 14:18:32 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1691 2011-05-13 14:18:40 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|yea, i've not even started that part yet
1692 2011-05-13 14:18:46 cosurgi has quit (Quit: leaving)
1693 2011-05-13 14:19:10 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|the block thing is kinda important though and required to get a lot of the other stuff done
1694 2011-05-13 14:20:00 <BitMark> anyone here profecient at colloquy applescript coding?
1695 2011-05-13 14:23:42 <sipa> ;;bc,gen 103000
1696 2011-05-13 14:23:44 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 103000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 0.658088164873 BTC per day and 0.027420340203 BTC per hour.
1697 2011-05-13 14:23:55 larsivi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1698 2011-05-13 14:25:36 <krekbwoy> ;;bc,gen 5485
1699 2011-05-13 14:25:37 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5485 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 0.0350447920808 BTC per day and 0.00146019967003 BTC per hour.
1700 2011-05-13 14:25:52 <krekbwoy> my MBP is kicking ass. nice
1701 2011-05-13 14:28:12 <acfrazier> mosi|work, do you get long polling exceptions too?
1702 2011-05-13 14:28:36 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|i've not seen any
1703 2011-05-13 14:28:41 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|phoenix reports it's working with LP
1704 2011-05-13 14:28:48 <acfrazier> hm, I'm using poclbm
1705 2011-05-13 14:28:51 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|nothing in the pushpool debug output
1706 2011-05-13 14:32:06 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|are the exceptions shown in pushpool's logs or poclbm ?
1707 2011-05-13 14:32:13 <jgarzik> luke-jr: edit your ulimits
1708 2011-05-13 14:33:02 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I doubt I have 1024 miners?
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1712 2011-05-13 14:33:52 <jgarzik> luke-jr: but 1,024 connections is quite possible.  is this behind an app server/rev proxy?  or are miner hitting it directly?  that was one symptom of DDOS that I saw, when I ran my public pool test.
1713 2011-05-13 14:34:16 <luke-jr> behind a rev proxy only for port 80
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1715 2011-05-13 14:34:58 <ForceDestroyer> Hiho. I've been away for a bit, has the ubuntu GUI failure been figured out?
1716 2011-05-13 14:35:01 <luke-jr> jgarzik: libevent appears to use select(), so ulimit can't safely be raised :/
1717 2011-05-13 14:35:19 <jgarzik> luke-jr: I don't understand either parts of that sentence
1718 2011-05-13 14:35:33 <jgarzik> luke-jr: libevent does not use select, and ulimit can be raised
1719 2011-05-13 14:35:35 <luke-jr> jgarzik: select() cannot be used with fds over 1024, even if ulimit is higher
1720 2011-05-13 14:35:58 <luke-jr> grep 'select(' libevent-2.0.10-stable/ -r | wc -l => 11
1721 2011-05-13 14:36:13 <jgarzik> luke-jr: that is meaningless
1722 2011-05-13 14:36:31 <jgarzik> luke-jr: poll and epoll show up via grep too, I'm sure
1723 2011-05-13 14:37:02 <jgarzik> luke-jr: what matters is what is _used_.  if you know anything about libevent, you know that it's reason for existence is using something -other than- select or poll.
1724 2011-05-13 14:37:12 <luke-jr> i c
1725 2011-05-13 14:37:47 <luke-jr> but my libevent.so links to select :/
1726 2011-05-13 14:38:56 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1727 2011-05-13 14:39:19 <sipa> maybe it uses it in some cases only?
1728 2011-05-13 14:39:26 <sipa> or uses it as a fallback?
1729 2011-05-13 14:39:42 <sipa> i'm sure the makers of libevent are aware of its limitations
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1731 2011-05-13 14:46:01 F4C3_ has joined
1732 2011-05-13 14:47:09 <luke-jr> looks like a fallback
1733 2011-05-13 14:47:16 eternal1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1734 2011-05-13 14:47:26 eternal1 has joined
1735 2011-05-13 14:48:29 <F4C3_> what's happenin?
1736 2011-05-13 14:53:33 <luke-jr> jgarzik: is there a .tbz2 for 0.3 too?
1737 2011-05-13 14:58:50 <jgarzik> luke-jr: there used to be
1738 2011-05-13 14:58:59 <luke-jr> …
1739 2011-05-13 14:59:23 <jgarzik> luke-jr: if your libevent does not use epoll (you're on Linux, right?), something is very, very, very wrong.  rebuild libevent _now_.
1740 2011-05-13 14:59:27 <jgarzik> luke-jr: and fire your packager
1741 2011-05-13 15:00:36 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r2130fc3286dd gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.4.ebuild): use tbz2 for 0.4 http://tinyurl.com/67txeb3
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1745 2011-05-13 15:08:22 <BlueMatt> sipa jgarzik: any comments? https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/eb0c8da45998363132d81a9cb8d3c213afe380ae
1746 2011-05-13 15:08:50 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: does it serve morning Pepsi?  <blink>
1747 2011-05-13 15:09:05 <BlueMatt> oh lol, its early there...
1748 2011-05-13 15:09:22 <BlueMatt> and yes, with 1500 lines, it does literally EVERYTHING
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1759 2011-05-13 15:18:36 <neoeinstein> BlueMatt, I'm not versed in the bitcoin standards, but I see a bunch of #ifdef __WXMSW__ VirtualLock(,) #else mlock(,) #endif
1760 2011-05-13 15:19:04 <neoeinstein> The pattern looks consistent. Is there an opportunity to use a macro to reduce the #ifdefs?
1761 2011-05-13 15:19:17 <BlueMatt> hm, yea, good point
1762 2011-05-13 15:19:55 <F4C3_> how well do you guys think a bitcoind running on a PIC32 would operate?  (not mining of course)
1763 2011-05-13 15:20:07 <F4C3_> at 80 MHz
1764 2011-05-13 15:21:02 lulzplzkthx is now known as afk!~lulzplzkt@76.226.185.192|lulzplzkthx
1765 2011-05-13 15:21:06 <sipa> neoeinstein, BlueMatt: agree
1766 2011-05-13 15:21:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: and i don't like "throw 1" and "throw 2" really :)
1767 2011-05-13 15:21:55 <BlueMatt> neither do I but it works, I suppose I could do some kind of bool& retVal
1768 2011-05-13 15:22:48 <sipa> tes
1769 2011-05-13 15:22:49 <sipa> yes
1770 2011-05-13 15:22:52 <jgarzik> sipa: agree
1771 2011-05-13 15:23:03 lulzplzkthx is now known as lulzplzkthx|afk
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1776 2011-05-13 15:24:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: ~CKey looks extremely dangerous to me
1777 2011-05-13 15:24:43 <sipa> it's a pointer to a data structure maintained by OpenSLL
1778 2011-05-13 15:24:45 <sipa> *SSL
1779 2011-05-13 15:24:51 <sipa> you shouldn't touch it
1780 2011-05-13 15:24:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: how so? (though sorry sizeof is wrong there)
1781 2011-05-13 15:25:04 <sipa> and definitely not overwrite it *before* calling free
1782 2011-05-13 15:25:18 <sipa> you're overwriting the pointer itself, not the datastructure, btw
1783 2011-05-13 15:25:29 <BlueMatt> yea, just saw that
1784 2011-05-13 15:25:47 <sipa> and the pointer is not sensitive
1785 2011-05-13 15:25:57 <sipa> what it points to, maybe, but that's outside of your control
1786 2011-05-13 15:25:58 HarryS has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1787 2011-05-13 15:26:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: hm, I would prefer to have something there, as there doesnt appear to be a EC_KEY_clean
1788 2011-05-13 15:27:09 <ForceDestroyer> If I understand this correctly, sourceforge does not provide a certificate --> my DNS, my provider and the Tier 1 provider linking me there can all send me a fake bitcoin client that steals all my money, yes?
1789 2011-05-13 15:27:35 <BlueMatt> ForceDestroyer: only until 0.4.0
1790 2011-05-13 15:27:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: openssl will wipe it before releasing
1791 2011-05-13 15:28:10 <BlueMatt> sipa: sure? EVP has _cleanup
1792 2011-05-13 15:30:29 <gmaxwell> dumb question time,  if I control a users network connection but not their software, what prevents me from redirecting them to a private bizarro-bitcoin on their inital startup, and feeding them my own blockchain?
1793 2011-05-13 15:30:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: nevermind, it does so appear that openssl calls OPENSSL_cleanse which cleans it first
1794 2011-05-13 15:30:55 <BlueMatt> will fix
1795 2011-05-13 15:31:06 * ForceDestroyer just runs it... I hope the provider people were slow enough
1796 2011-05-13 15:31:12 Nicksasa has joined
1797 2011-05-13 15:31:21 <ForceDestroyer> The GUI is STILL invisible -_-
1798 2011-05-13 15:31:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's because EVP_CIPHER_CTX is managed by yourself, you initialize it, and you free it
1799 2011-05-13 15:31:38 gavweb has joined
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1801 2011-05-13 15:32:01 <gmaxwell> (I thought perhaps the client would include the hash of a recent block backed in to make sure the user got the real chain, but I couldn't find one)
1802 2011-05-13 15:32:09 <neoeinstein> gmaxwell, there is a system of hardcoded checkpoints for the block chain that have been hard coded into the client, including the genesis block.
1803 2011-05-13 15:32:10 <neoeinstein> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1729
1804 2011-05-13 15:32:13 <gmaxwell> s/backed in/baked in/
1805 2011-05-13 15:32:16 <gmaxwell> ah!
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1809 2011-05-13 15:34:00 <ForceDestroyer> I can't see the Bitcoin GUI. That is not good. Please, at least tell me whose fault this is, Bitcoin or ubuntu? Is ubuntu no longer supported by bitcoin?
1810 2011-05-13 15:34:45 <sipa> ForceDestroyer: i believe it is a problem with wx and ubuntu
1811 2011-05-13 15:34:58 <sipa> but bluematt had a built for recent ubuntu that worked, no?
1812 2011-05-13 15:35:12 <BlueMatt> yep
1813 2011-05-13 15:35:18 <BlueMatt> search for ubuntu 11.04 on the forums
1814 2011-05-13 15:35:20 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1815 2011-05-13 15:35:26 <BlueMatt> (or build with wx-trunk)
1816 2011-05-13 15:35:58 BitMark has quit (Quit: BitMark)
1817 2011-05-13 15:36:50 agricocb has joined
1818 2011-05-13 15:37:24 diki has joined
1819 2011-05-13 15:37:46 <diki> So, guys, i don't know how, but a transaction appeared on my client with Generated 0,00
1820 2011-05-13 15:38:30 IncitatusOnWater has joined
1821 2011-05-13 15:38:31 <diki> Actually this is it:Credit: (0.02612352 matures in 91 more blocks) Net amount: 0.00
1822 2011-05-13 15:38:38 <diki> I say what??
1823 2011-05-13 15:38:45 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Client Quit)
1824 2011-05-13 15:38:48 <sipa> currently it's worth 0
1825 2011-05-13 15:38:57 <sipa> since it is impossible to spend it
1826 2011-05-13 15:38:57 donpdonp has joined
1827 2011-05-13 15:39:02 <diki> but i never requested any 0.02 from anywhere
1828 2011-05-13 15:39:11 <sipa> luke-jr's mining pool?
1829 2011-05-13 15:39:20 <diki> havent been there for a long time
1830 2011-05-13 15:39:30 <sipa> exactly a week?
1831 2011-05-13 15:39:38 <diki> dunno, maybe?
1832 2011-05-13 15:39:45 <sipa> because it pays out your remaining balance after one week of inactivity
1833 2011-05-13 15:40:50 lulzplzkthx is now known as afk!~lulzplzkt@76.226.185.192|lulzplzkthx
1834 2011-05-13 15:41:42 <neoeinstein> diki, you may be in a pool that gives out its rewards straight from the block generation transaction.
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1837 2011-05-13 15:47:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm not convinced you're locking the passphrase data
1838 2011-05-13 15:47:15 <sipa> i think you're locking the string structure itself, which has a pointer to that data
1839 2011-05-13 15:47:29 <BlueMatt> might very well be
1840 2011-05-13 15:47:48 <BlueMatt> Im not convinced either, I havnt reexamined all the mlocks() which I have to do before pull req
1841 2011-05-13 15:48:11 <sipa> if you want to make sure, i think it's best to create a char array statically, and lock that
1842 2011-05-13 15:48:33 <sipa> but then of course it'll be hard to get wx to write it in there
1843 2011-05-13 15:48:36 <sipa> hmmm
1844 2011-05-13 15:48:39 <BlueMatt> cant really due that due to the fact that wx returns a string
1845 2011-05-13 15:48:44 <BlueMatt> but its worth a try I suppose
1846 2011-05-13 15:48:54 <sipa> if it returns a string, you're out of luck
1847 2011-05-13 15:49:03 <sipa> you can lock it after returning
1848 2011-05-13 15:49:42 <BlueMatt> yea, might have to settle for that...doesnt really matter as its unlocked in the textbox anyway
1849 2011-05-13 15:51:03 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|is it worth running a private pool with 4GHash/s ?
1850 2011-05-13 15:51:31 <gmaxwell> mosi|work: worth??
1851 2011-05-13 15:51:50 <noagendamarket> you may as well mine solo
1852 2011-05-13 15:51:51 <gmaxwell> mosi|work: and as opposed to what? letting 4GH/s gpus sit idle?
1853 2011-05-13 15:52:14 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|well i mean, what would the payout in BTC be compared to doing a pruivate pool or running through slush'es pool or deepbit
1854 2011-05-13 15:52:54 <gmaxwell> mosi|work: the expected payout of mining solo is equal to or greater than using a pool.
1855 2011-05-13 15:53:25 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|ok, thanks
1856 2011-05-13 15:53:26 <gmaxwell> The pools you mention have fees, so certantly mining solo has greater expected payout.
1857 2011-05-13 15:53:36 <gmaxwell> But this is true if you have 1h/s or 100Gh/s.
1858 2011-05-13 15:53:37 AnonX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1859 2011-05-13 15:53:48 <mosi> work!~mos@217.22.80.82|i mentioned those as they were first to come to mind
1860 2011-05-13 15:54:01 <gmaxwell> People don't use pools to increase payout. They use pools to increase the stability of the income.
1861 2011-05-13 15:54:18 AnonX has joined
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1863 2011-05-13 15:56:45 <diki> has the fee for a tx changed??
1864 2011-05-13 15:56:53 <ForceDestroyer> Thank you for the fix, BlueMatt!
1865 2011-05-13 15:57:34 <diki> cause when i wanted to send BTC it wanted a 0.02 fee
1866 2011-05-13 15:58:06 <gmaxwell> diki: it bases the fee on the number of bytes required to represent the TX.
1867 2011-05-13 15:58:25 <diki> i've sent more BTC before
1868 2011-05-13 15:58:30 <gmaxwell> You can still set it to a smaller number. The defaults in the client are a bit wonky.
1869 2011-05-13 15:58:37 <gmaxwell> diki: I did not say "the number of bitcoin"
1870 2011-05-13 15:58:53 <neoeinstein> diki, you probably have a bunch of payments that you needed to use as input for your own transaction. Those bloat the size of your transaction.
1871 2011-05-13 15:58:54 <gmaxwell> I said the size in bytes required to represent the TX. :)
1872 2011-05-13 15:59:11 <gmaxwell> a 1BTC transaction can by 8kb if it's built out of a lot of tiny coins.
1873 2011-05-13 15:59:45 <luke-jr> it's based on the number of coins used, not the value of the coins
1874 2011-05-13 16:00:00 <luke-jr> it's like paying a $1 bill with pennies
1875 2011-05-13 16:00:16 <luke-jr> you'll need more than 1 postage stamp
1876 2011-05-13 16:00:26 <gmaxwell> And as everyone knows: if you put pennies in the tubes they jam.
1877 2011-05-13 16:01:01 <gmaxwell> (or at least anyone who has visited a bank drive through with numatic tubes)
1878 2011-05-13 16:03:16 zyb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1879 2011-05-13 16:04:21 <dinox> Anyone who knows what columns there should be in mysql table "shares" for pushpool?
1880 2011-05-13 16:04:49 <eps1> luke-jr, i get errors when i try to check my balance with coin-control
1881 2011-05-13 16:05:05 <luke-jr> eps1: :o
1882 2011-05-13 16:05:07 <eps1> are you aware?, do you care?
1883 2011-05-13 16:05:12 <luke-jr> dinox: rtfs
1884 2011-05-13 16:05:41 <dinox> (rem_host, username, our_result, "          \
1885 2011-05-13 16:05:43 <dinox>         "                    upstream_result, reason, solution)
1886 2011-05-13 16:05:53 <dinox> luke-jr: What datatypes are these?
1887 2011-05-13 16:06:11 <eps1> just use TEXT for all of them
1888 2011-05-13 16:06:14 larsivi has joined
1889 2011-05-13 16:06:28 <dinox> eps1: thanks, varchar(20) should be ok?
1890 2011-05-13 16:06:35 <dinox> ah, TEXT
1891 2011-05-13 16:06:39 <eps1> nah i was joking
1892 2011-05-13 16:06:46 <eps1> i don't know, don't listen to me
1893 2011-05-13 16:08:08 <luke-jr> dinox: figure it out -.-
1894 2011-05-13 16:08:12 JackRabiit has joined
1895 2011-05-13 16:08:40 <JackRabiit> ;;auth DingoRabiit
1896 2011-05-13 16:08:40 <gribble> Request successful for user DingoRabiit, hostmask JackRabiit!60326e8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.50.110.140. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:b03ba33315ade9c0e1d07522f9722586302e7281fee17ec70e588773209ecf4e
1897 2011-05-13 16:08:55 <JackRabiit> ;;rate Demonofelru 1
1898 2011-05-13 16:08:55 <gribble> Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the rating system.
1899 2011-05-13 16:09:16 donpdonp has left ()
1900 2011-05-13 16:09:28 <dinox> luke-jr: thanks for the help -.-
1901 2011-05-13 16:10:08 JackRabiit has quit (Client Quit)
1902 2011-05-13 16:12:25 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1903 2011-05-13 16:12:27 David has joined
1904 2011-05-13 16:12:41 David has quit (Client Quit)
1905 2011-05-13 16:13:35 tippenein has joined
1906 2011-05-13 16:13:55 <tippenein> holy shit have bitcoins went up in value lately!
1907 2011-05-13 16:13:56 dbitcoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1908 2011-05-13 16:16:58 David has joined
1909 2011-05-13 16:16:59 David has quit (Client Quit)
1910 2011-05-13 16:17:12 anatoly_l has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1911 2011-05-13 16:19:42 <lupine_85> so, when it comes to building a block, what is it that you're hashing? all the data in the block + a nonce, or some condensed version of the data ?
1912 2011-05-13 16:19:56 <luke-jr> just the header
1913 2011-05-13 16:20:05 DebraBarone has joined
1914 2011-05-13 16:20:17 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1915 2011-05-13 16:21:21 <lupine_85> hmm, how many bytes is that?
1916 2011-05-13 16:21:49 AStove has quit ()
1917 2011-05-13 16:21:54 <luke-jr> lupine_85: 40 IIRC
1918 2011-05-13 16:22:43 <lupine_85> hmmmm
1919 2011-05-13 16:22:47 <lupine_85> thanks muchlu
1920 2011-05-13 16:22:49 <lupine_85> muchly*
1921 2011-05-13 16:23:23 <Strom> 80
1922 2011-05-13 16:23:27 <Strom> afaik
1923 2011-05-13 16:24:26 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1924 2011-05-13 16:25:45 kreal- has joined
1925 2011-05-13 16:27:00 duosrx has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1926 2011-05-13 16:28:02 <kreal-> does anyone have a default.ovdr for amdoverdrivectrl I can look at.
1927 2011-05-13 16:28:09 <kreal-> I simply cannot find any information.
1928 2011-05-13 16:28:26 DebraBarone has quit (Quit: leaving)
1929 2011-05-13 16:29:48 DebraBarone has joined
1930 2011-05-13 16:29:50 <midnightmagic> incredible.
1931 2011-05-13 16:30:01 cosurgi has joined
1932 2011-05-13 16:30:30 DebraBarone has quit (Client Quit)
1933 2011-05-13 16:30:41 DebraBarone has joined
1934 2011-05-13 16:32:01 DukeOfURL has joined
1935 2011-05-13 16:33:24 <kreal-> damnit
1936 2011-05-13 16:34:04 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1937 2011-05-13 16:35:27 <sipa> kreal-: i have one
1938 2011-05-13 16:35:39 <kreal-> would be really nice.
1939 2011-05-13 16:35:49 <sipa> let's see if i can ssh into my mining rig
1940 2011-05-13 16:35:56 <kreal-> im sitting here going crazy cause I cant start it in gui mode.
1941 2011-05-13 16:36:06 dbitcoin has joined
1942 2011-05-13 16:37:01 cosurgiFB has quit (Quit: leaving)
1943 2011-05-13 16:38:49 <midnightmagic> is there a way to prove that i have a keypair in my wallet? that is, to prove that a transaction was in fact mine? (like signing something else in the future?)
1944 2011-05-13 16:39:07 <sipa> midnightmagic: khal made a pull request for that
1945 2011-05-13 16:39:28 <sipa> kreal-: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/HD5970-860MHz.ovdr
1946 2011-05-13 16:39:32 <midnightmagic> i like it when thoughts that occur to me have already been thought of. :)
1947 2011-05-13 16:40:21 <kreal-> perfect thanks!
1948 2011-05-13 16:40:28 kika has joined
1949 2011-05-13 16:40:37 <sipa> kreal-: it's not really default though, it has memory clock set to 300MHz, fan to 100% and gpu to 860MHz
1950 2011-05-13 16:40:50 <jgarzik> I need a home mining rig, for devel
1951 2011-05-13 16:40:55 <kreal-> yah just badly needed an example.
1952 2011-05-13 16:41:10 <kika> so it would be possible for a miner with 10000Ghash power to join the bitcoin network and create a whole new main chain from the genesis block and make the current main chain invalid ?
1953 2011-05-13 16:41:12 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
1954 2011-05-13 16:41:22 <jgarzik> kika: no
1955 2011-05-13 16:41:27 <kika> jgarzik: why ?
1956 2011-05-13 16:41:33 <midnightmagic> the code is hard-coded with checkpoints.
1957 2011-05-13 16:41:33 DukeOfURL has joined
1958 2011-05-13 16:41:34 <jgarzik> kika: hardcoded block chain checkpionts
1959 2011-05-13 16:41:35 thedrs has joined
1960 2011-05-13 16:41:47 <sipa> and if those weren't there
1961 2011-05-13 16:41:53 <thedrs> hi again ppl
1962 2011-05-13 16:41:57 <jgarzik> kika: 10 Thash/sec is not much
1963 2011-05-13 16:42:19 <kika> jgarzik: how oftenly are hard coded checkpoints are done'
1964 2011-05-13 16:42:32 <jgarzik> kika: gavin does one each version
1965 2011-05-13 16:42:33 <sipa> [B[B[B... what?
1966 2011-05-13 16:42:35 <sipa> it's 6 times as much as we have now!
1967 2011-05-13 16:42:44 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah, but won't be soon :)
1968 2011-05-13 16:42:46 <thedrs> fast question: are intel's sandy bridge CPU "AES instruction set" any good for mining bitcoins algorithim ?
1969 2011-05-13 16:42:47 <kika> jgarzik: wondering how much time it happens until each version is released
1970 2011-05-13 16:42:53 <cosurgi> of course 10 THs will overcome whole network.
1971 2011-05-13 16:42:53 <khalahan> sipa  > it woulnd't be enough to start from the genesis block
1972 2011-05-13 16:42:54 <sipa> 7 times
1973 2011-05-13 16:43:00 <jgarzik> yep
1974 2011-05-13 16:43:18 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
1975 2011-05-13 16:43:21 <cosurgi> guys, do I want to use water cooling?
1976 2011-05-13 16:43:23 <jgarzik> thedrs: no
1977 2011-05-13 16:43:23 <sipa> by the way: how do i copy a file in git?
1978 2011-05-13 16:43:33 <thedrs> jgarzik: thanks
1979 2011-05-13 16:43:34 <kika> jgarzik: so basically a miner can decide to start builiding a chain from any block that be > checkpoint block
1980 2011-05-13 16:43:44 <sipa> kika: in theory, yes
1981 2011-05-13 16:43:48 DebraBarone has quit (Quit: leaving)
1982 2011-05-13 16:43:53 <sipa> though it would be hugely suspicious
1983 2011-05-13 16:43:59 DebraBarone has joined
1984 2011-05-13 16:44:03 <cosurgi> it will work, nothing can stop him.
1985 2011-05-13 16:44:03 <kika> jgarzik: how oftenly a version is released?
1986 2011-05-13 16:44:04 <midnightmagic> kika: it's in the code: at blocks 11111 33333 68555 70567 74000 105000 and 118000
1987 2011-05-13 16:44:06 <sacarlson> I found a bug in my #weeds proto chain that I have now fixed in my new distibution https://github.com/sacarlson/freecoin  the bug created network connections to nodes in testnet that were not needed, not related to your bitcoin release but may have caused problem in your testnet in the past
1988 2011-05-13 16:44:15 <jgarzik> sipa: not easily: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1043388/record-file-copy-operation-with-git
1989 2011-05-13 16:44:33 <midnightmagic> kika: main.cpp:1746
1990 2011-05-13 16:44:35 <jgarzik> cosurgi: community action can stop him
1991 2011-05-13 16:44:42 <kika> midnightmagic: i see
1992 2011-05-13 16:45:01 <jgarzik> cosurgi: anything majorly weird, we just release a new version that avoids the weirdness, and the block chain catches up
1993 2011-05-13 16:45:01 knotwork_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1994 2011-05-13 16:45:01 NickelBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1995 2011-05-13 16:45:07 <cosurgi> jgarzik: everyone will refuse to download blockchain from him?
1996 2011-05-13 16:45:17 <jgarzik> cosurgi: that's what happened with block 71036
1997 2011-05-13 16:45:37 <kika> i dont think those hardcoded things can work, because the powerful miner can just release a bitcoin client without those hardcoded blocks and make people download his client instead
1998 2011-05-13 16:45:52 <cosurgi> kika: if he can convince community...
1999 2011-05-13 16:45:53 <jgarzik> kika: "make" people?
2000 2011-05-13 16:46:00 <kika> jgarzik: bad english lol
2001 2011-05-13 16:46:05 DukeOfURL has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2002 2011-05-13 16:46:15 <midnightmagic> you can't make people download your client unless they agree the new way is better. if people agree to that, blockchain splits and the network divides in two (or more)
2003 2011-05-13 16:46:19 <sipa> does being a powerful miner help in any way the influence he has over people's mind?
2004 2011-05-13 16:46:50 <lulzplzkthx> Bitcoin needs an auto-update feature.
2005 2011-05-13 16:46:55 <sipa> hell no
2006 2011-05-13 16:46:57 <jgarzik> no
2007 2011-05-13 16:46:59 <lulzplzkthx> Err, no
2008 2011-05-13 16:47:01 <lulzplzkthx> That's not what I meant
2009 2011-05-13 16:47:05 <lulzplzkthx> A check for updates automatically feature.
2010 2011-05-13 16:47:08 <lulzplzkthx> With a changelog.
2011 2011-05-13 16:47:29 <lulzplzkthx> and I say this because inevitably you will have the people who don't update their software ever, and will be running .10 3 years from now.
2012 2011-05-13 16:47:42 <lulzplzkthx> .10 which could get skewed off the official block chain.
2013 2011-05-13 16:48:15 NickelBot has joined
2014 2011-05-13 16:48:38 <sacarlson> lulzplzkthx: sounds like the ubuntu model I never update until I have to with ubuntu with the long release
2015 2011-05-13 16:49:09 TD has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2016 2011-05-13 16:49:53 <lulzplzkthx> Running Arch I pacman -Syu all the time.
2017 2011-05-13 16:49:56 maikmerten has joined
2018 2011-05-13 16:50:01 <sacarlson> lulzplzkthx: but you would still have to support porting a wallet from an older release to a newer one with no time limits
2019 2011-05-13 16:50:14 <lulzplzkthx> sacarlson: You already have to do that.
2020 2011-05-13 16:50:22 <lulzplzkthx> The point is to make people aware when there are updates.
2021 2011-05-13 16:50:29 <sipa> jgarzik: it says that i need a special option to git diff, but i just want it detected by i suppose add or commit?
2022 2011-05-13 16:50:50 DukeOfURL has joined
2023 2011-05-13 16:51:08 <kika> so how the bitcoin client getwork knows whats the latest block hash it has to build the new block on?
2024 2011-05-13 16:51:14 <jgarzik> sipa: cp + git add :/
2025 2011-05-13 16:51:15 <redwizard_kde> eugh i hope i've not just lost my bitcoin dat file again :(
2026 2011-05-13 16:51:19 <sacarlson> lulzplzkthx: I think one of the problems I've heard are that you can't move a wallet from one release to another you must setup a transaction to your new version to move
2027 2011-05-13 16:51:50 <lulzplzkthx> sacarlson: I've never had that issue. :\
2028 2011-05-13 16:51:50 <kika> basically how it decides whats the prehash for the block its trying to process? its the hash of the last block in the main chain that it got notified?
2029 2011-05-13 16:51:58 <kika> *prevhash
2030 2011-05-13 16:52:01 <lulzplzkthx> Regardless, it wouldn't be too hard to faciliatate that for the user.
2031 2011-05-13 16:52:33 <lulzplzkthx> Generates one address, saves the address, sends bitcoins to the address, updates, and then pulls from that address.
2032 2011-05-13 16:52:38 <luke-jr> anyone get their bitbills yet?
2033 2011-05-13 16:52:43 <redwizard_kde> is bitcoin buggy on windows?
2034 2011-05-13 16:52:49 <sipa> jgarzik: i love git :)
2035 2011-05-13 16:52:56 <ArtForz> no, it's buggy everywhere ;)
2036 2011-05-13 16:52:59 <redwizard_kde> ah
2037 2011-05-13 16:53:04 <redwizard_kde> fair enough
2038 2011-05-13 16:53:04 <jgarzik> lol
2039 2011-05-13 16:53:11 <sacarlson> lulzplzkthx: I saw a cool utility used in the bitcard that might prevent the problem of moving from one version to another if that event was to hapen
2040 2011-05-13 16:53:28 <ArtForz> with different new and exciting bugs on every platform ;)
2041 2011-05-13 16:53:35 thedrs has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2042 2011-05-13 16:53:58 <cosurgi> ArtForz: do I want to use water cooling?
2043 2011-05-13 16:54:09 <ArtForz> cosurgi: how the hell should I know what you want?
2044 2011-05-13 16:54:37 <cosurgi> ArtForz: :) asking in case if that's obviously stupid. Do you have experience with that?
2045 2011-05-13 16:54:43 <ArtForz> yeah
2046 2011-05-13 16:54:48 <ArtForz> it's expensive, but awesome
2047 2011-05-13 16:54:57 <cosurgi> I see. do you use it?
2048 2011-05-13 16:54:59 <sacarlson> cosurgi: I take showers all the time I love water cooling
2049 2011-05-13 16:55:05 <luke-jr> redwizard_kde: try Spesmilo
2050 2011-05-13 16:55:21 <ArtForz> used to, until I realized I could just put my computer in another room
2051 2011-05-13 16:55:26 <lulzplzkthx> redwizard_kde: it's not buggy.
2052 2011-05-13 16:55:31 <ArtForz> after that I just went with aircooling and server fans
2053 2011-05-13 16:55:34 <lulzplzkthx> Err, it's buggy on some Linux.
2054 2011-05-13 16:55:42 <lulzplzkthx> (Icon being broken is the only thing I can think of though.)
2055 2011-05-13 16:55:53 <ArtForz> yep
2056 2011-05-13 16:55:53 <lulzplzkthx> And blocks not downloading fully on the initial download.
2057 2011-05-13 16:56:03 <ArtForz> like I said, different OSes, different bugs ;)
2058 2011-05-13 16:56:04 <redwizard_kde> i'm currently (slowly) going thru and compiling it from scratch on kubuntu
2059 2011-05-13 16:56:07 <lulzplzkthx> (Which just requires a quit and reboot.)
2060 2011-05-13 16:56:08 <cosurgi> ArtForz: ok. makes sense. How much space in front of card is needed to mount it?
2061 2011-05-13 16:56:28 <ArtForz> huh?
2062 2011-05-13 16:56:36 <ArtForz> which side is front?
2063 2011-05-13 16:56:46 <cosurgi> ArtForz: it's mounted on the core, right?
2064 2011-05-13 16:56:52 <ArtForz> yeah
2065 2011-05-13 16:57:04 <cosurgi> ArtForz: so that's front for me.
2066 2011-05-13 16:57:09 <ArtForz> depends
2067 2011-05-13 16:57:22 <cosurgi> ArtForz: like one free slot? two slots?
2068 2011-05-13 16:57:27 <ArtForz> the slim waterblocks only take up enough space so the card is 1 slot
2069 2011-05-13 16:57:51 <cosurgi> and the waterblock is 2nd slot?
2070 2011-05-13 16:57:54 <ArtForz> nope
2071 2011-05-13 16:58:01 <cosurgi> ArtForz: oh, all is 1 slot?
2072 2011-05-13 16:58:03 <ArtForz> yep
2073 2011-05-13 16:58:08 <cosurgi> that's really slim.
2074 2011-05-13 16:58:11 <ArtForz> yep
2075 2011-05-13 16:58:31 <ArtForz> if you want you can then get custom bracket plates the a 5970 only takes up 1 slot for real
2076 2011-05-13 16:58:46 <ArtForz> kinda useless, but they exist
2077 2011-05-13 16:59:02 <ArtForz> I'd keep em at 2-slot spacing
2078 2011-05-13 16:59:21 <cosurgi> ArtForz: so I could buy 4 cards, remove air fans, mount waterblocks, and put them all into a single motheboard? Using a mobo with 4 PCIex slots?
2079 2011-05-13 16:59:27 <ArtForz> yep
2080 2011-05-13 16:59:36 <cosurgi> interesting.
2081 2011-05-13 16:59:44 Blitzboom_ has joined
2082 2011-05-13 16:59:48 <ArtForz> you'll need a pretty massive rad for 4 cards though
2083 2011-05-13 16:59:55 <jrmithdobbs> or you could do it with air if you're careful
2084 2011-05-13 17:00:11 <ArtForz> iirc most 120x360mm rads can only handle 2*5970 even with high power fans
2085 2011-05-13 17:00:14 lzsaver has quit (Changing host)
2086 2011-05-13 17:00:14 lzsaver has joined
2087 2011-05-13 17:00:37 DebraBarone has quit (Quit: leaving)
2088 2011-05-13 17:00:41 <cosurgi> ArtForz: yes, I expect that. What do you mean by fans? Aren't all fans removed, and just a water pump? Or a fan on radiator?
2089 2011-05-13 17:00:54 <ArtForz> fan on radiator
2090 2011-05-13 17:00:55 DebraBarone has joined
2091 2011-05-13 17:00:57 <cosurgi> ok.
2092 2011-05-13 17:01:06 <ArtForz> usually you have 3 120mm fans on a 120x360 rad
2093 2011-05-13 17:01:21 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: meh, workin for me with just the fans or cards and good airflow
2094 2011-05-13 17:01:27 <jrmithdobbs> s/or/on/
2095 2011-05-13 17:01:32 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: without airspace between cards?
2096 2011-05-13 17:01:34 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2097 2011-05-13 17:01:39 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: oh hell no
2098 2011-05-13 17:01:39 <ArtForz> with 4*5970?
2099 2011-05-13 17:01:44 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: 4*5850
2100 2011-05-13 17:01:57 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: but cards aren't all mounted on back
2101 2011-05-13 17:02:16 <ArtForz> I ran 4*5770 without space between em on air ;)
2102 2011-05-13 17:02:31 <jrmithdobbs> there's two that don't have space between 'em
2103 2011-05-13 17:02:33 <ArtForz> http://bayimg.com/nAOAgaACJ
2104 2011-05-13 17:02:54 <sipa> jgarzik: so to split a source file, i copy it, remove pieces of each, add both again, and commit?
2105 2011-05-13 17:03:01 <ArtForz> and yes, I have a 120x38mm fetish ;)
2106 2011-05-13 17:03:04 <sipa> or is the intermediate add not even necessary
2107 2011-05-13 17:03:09 <cosurgi> ArtForz: and I don't even need PCI risers for that?
2108 2011-05-13 17:03:14 <ArtForz> nope
2109 2011-05-13 17:03:25 <sipa> eh, copy, add, edit, add, commit?
2110 2011-05-13 17:03:36 <ArtForz> iirc someone runs 3*5970 on water
2111 2011-05-13 17:03:39 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: hey cardboard budy
2112 2011-05-13 17:03:42 Blitzboom_ is now known as Blitzboom
2113 2011-05-13 17:03:47 <ArtForz> saw a post with pics on the forum
2114 2011-05-13 17:03:50 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: nope
2115 2011-05-13 17:03:52 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
2116 2011-05-13 17:03:52 Blitzboom has joined
2117 2011-05-13 17:03:56 <ArtForz> high density fibreboard
2118 2011-05-13 17:04:25 <jrmithdobbs> ah
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2120 2011-05-13 17:04:42 anatoly_l has joined
2121 2011-05-13 17:04:59 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: i'm pulling off the same basic thing except inside a mid-tower using cardboard to direct airflow
2122 2011-05-13 17:05:07 <jrmithdobbs> not at all proud of it so not takin pics ;P
2123 2011-05-13 17:05:11 <jrmithdobbs> awfu
2124 2011-05-13 17:05:13 <jrmithdobbs> l
2125 2011-05-13 17:05:14 <jrmithdobbs> haha
2126 2011-05-13 17:05:28 <ArtForz> well, why bother making it nice when it's only for testing
2127 2011-05-13 17:05:40 <ArtForz> aftzer that... "hey it works, why bother redoing it"
2128 2011-05-13 17:05:45 <jrmithdobbs> p much
2129 2011-05-13 17:06:09 <jrmithdobbs> still working out how to get flow to the cards that don't have space between them
2130 2011-05-13 17:06:15 <ArtForz> aka "the eternal production prototype"
2131 2011-05-13 17:06:35 <jrmithdobbs> but think i got that sorted with some duct tape and a fan on the side
2132 2011-05-13 17:06:41 <ArtForz> very common antipattern in custom SW dev
2133 2011-05-13 17:07:00 <jrmithdobbs> ductape for the cardboard, obv
2134 2011-05-13 17:07:15 <jrmithdobbs> just trying to figure out if having the intake or out works better ;P
2135 2011-05-13 17:07:25 <jrmithdobbs> so far, out
2136 2011-05-13 17:07:27 <ArtForz> you hack together a quick prototype planning to do it properly later, years later the same prototype is still in use in production
2137 2011-05-13 17:07:41 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2138 2011-05-13 17:08:01 knotwork has joined
2139 2011-05-13 17:08:01 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
2140 2011-05-13 17:08:01 knotwork has joined
2141 2011-05-13 17:08:24 <ArtForz> btw, that was a 13GB IDE drive *g*
2142 2011-05-13 17:08:48 <jrmithdobbs> pfft, disks suck, no disks!
2143 2011-05-13 17:09:13 <jrmithdobbs> (and i don't mean that in a use-ssd-way)
2144 2011-05-13 17:09:13 <ArtForz> well, that was pretty much the first dedicated miner I built
2145 2011-05-13 17:09:33 mosimo has joined
2146 2011-05-13 17:09:35 pnicholson has joined
2147 2011-05-13 17:10:11 <jrmithdobbs> http://home.jrbobdobbs.org/mith/IMG_20110511_063925.jpg
2148 2011-05-13 17:10:15 <jrmithdobbs> pre-fans and cardboard
2149 2011-05-13 17:10:19 CrazyThinker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2150 2011-05-13 17:10:32 <jrmithdobbs> works ;P
2151 2011-05-13 17:10:41 <jrmithdobbs> not pretty.
2152 2011-05-13 17:11:00 <ArtForz> hey, as long as it works...
2153 2011-05-13 17:11:04 tcatm has joined
2154 2011-05-13 17:11:13 <ArtForz> but yeah, cooling that shouldnt be too hard
2155 2011-05-13 17:11:50 <ArtForz> afaik the shrouds on those are open on both ends
2156 2011-05-13 17:12:21 fimp has joined
2157 2011-05-13 17:12:35 <ArtForz> I't probably try a duct around em and a decent (8-10W or so) 120mm at the ass end
2158 2011-05-13 17:13:32 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2159 2011-05-13 17:14:38 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: ya, i'm gonna try it sitting over the top of the cards first as there's an easy way to mount it
2160 2011-05-13 17:14:39 <gmaxwell> 5850: most expensive duct ever.
2161 2011-05-13 17:14:50 DukeOfURL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2162 2011-05-13 17:14:59 <dinox> Does pushpool use plaintext passwords? I cant find a hashing function in source
2163 2011-05-13 17:15:02 <ArtForz> another cheap trick for benchtop rigs: MDF predrilled to 3mm and UNC 6/32 mobo hex standoffs are self-tapping ;)
2164 2011-05-13 17:15:13 <jrmithdobbs> main problem is all the extra fan holes in that case need to be blocked.
2165 2011-05-13 17:15:38 <jrmithdobbs> need to get some 3.5 and 5.25 inserts
2166 2011-05-13 17:15:52 <gmaxwell> dinox: all the miners send plain text passwords AFAIK.  Solution: Don't let mining accounts do anything except mine.
2167 2011-05-13 17:16:06 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: ducttape.
2168 2011-05-13 17:16:09 <luke-jr> tcatm: something wrong with the MtGox feed?
2169 2011-05-13 17:16:13 anatoly_l has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2170 2011-05-13 17:16:24 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2171 2011-05-13 17:17:29 <ArtForz> yep, gribble wasnt updating yet again...
2172 2011-05-13 17:18:37 DukeOfURL has joined
2173 2011-05-13 17:18:42 <ArtForz> aka "fuck, fucker's fucking fucked"
2174 2011-05-13 17:18:48 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2175 2011-05-13 17:19:10 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: aye ran out, lol
2176 2011-05-13 17:19:19 allied has joined
2177 2011-05-13 17:19:22 <jrmithdobbs> gonna go grab another 120mm and more duct tape
2178 2011-05-13 17:20:25 <jrmithdobbs> one of those two is operating just outside of spec
2179 2011-05-13 17:20:33 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
2180 2011-05-13 17:20:40 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2181 2011-05-13 17:20:42 <jrmithdobbs> others sit at 74-77 which aint bad for air-only in tx
2182 2011-05-13 17:20:42 <ArtForz> the duct tape?
2183 2011-05-13 17:20:43 <jrmithdobbs> heh
2184 2011-05-13 17:20:48 <ArtForz> oh, cards
2185 2011-05-13 17:20:59 gwelymernan has joined
2186 2011-05-13 17:21:10 sethsethseth____ has joined
2187 2011-05-13 17:21:11 FabianB has joined
2188 2011-05-13 17:21:18 kika has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2189 2011-05-13 17:21:31 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
2190 2011-05-13 17:21:31 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.45,"low":5.7511,"vol":63034,"buy":8.21,"sell":8.3,"last":8.4001}}
2191 2011-05-13 17:21:51 Stellar has quit (Quit: w00t)
2192 2011-05-13 17:23:05 tcatm has joined
2193 2011-05-13 17:24:17 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2194 2011-05-13 17:26:25 <lulzplzkthx> I think another way to advertise Bitcoin besides all the ways we advertise it now is an "international currency".
2195 2011-05-13 17:27:08 <lulzplzkthx> A Bitcoin here is a Bitcoin there kind of deal. It comes from there being no central authority.
2196 2011-05-13 17:27:37 jsemar has joined
2197 2011-05-13 17:27:47 <EPiSKiNG> ;;bc,calc 1200000
2198 2011-05-13 17:27:48 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1200000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 6 days, 12 hours, 30 minutes, and 50 seconds
2199 2011-05-13 17:28:04 <jsemar> Hey guys I have a question for someone with knowledge of bitcoin inner workings
2200 2011-05-13 17:28:13 <EPiSKiNG> don't ask to ask
2201 2011-05-13 17:28:15 <EPiSKiNG> , just ask
2202 2011-05-13 17:28:16 <gjs278> ;;bc,stats
2203 2011-05-13 17:28:17 <gribble> Current Blocks: 123694 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 1297 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 22 hours, 5 minutes, and 17 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 205311.46718184
2204 2011-05-13 17:28:35 <jsemar> So there is a recurring problem that people try to approach, "how to make bitcoins physical", you see btc bucks, with scratch offs, etc
2205 2011-05-13 17:28:52 decepto has joined
2206 2011-05-13 17:29:05 <ArtForz> short answer: you can't
2207 2011-05-13 17:29:33 <jsemar> As I understand, when bitcoin makes a transaction, it signs the transaction with its private key, if you know the public key you can know for certain the transaction was signed by that person?
2208 2011-05-13 17:29:50 <jsemar> err signed by that private key, not person
2209 2011-05-13 17:29:54 <sipa> by someone who has control over the corresponding private ket yes
2210 2011-05-13 17:29:56 <ArtForz> well, you know for certain it was someone with that private key
2211 2011-05-13 17:30:29 kelp has joined
2212 2011-05-13 17:30:44 <ArtForz> so scratch off cards containing a private key or equivalent can work, *if* you trust the issuer to not cheat
2213 2011-05-13 17:30:47 vorlov has joined
2214 2011-05-13 17:30:52 <jsemar> ok, so what if you issued a signature with your private key, not a real transaction and not broadcasted on the network, basically allowing the bearer to redeem for a transaction
2215 2011-05-13 17:31:10 <sipa> won't work
2216 2011-05-13 17:31:12 <jsemar> you dont give out your pk, just something signed by your pk
2217 2011-05-13 17:31:17 <sipa> it needs to sign the actual transaction
2218 2011-05-13 17:31:24 <sipa> and that includes its destination address
2219 2011-05-13 17:31:46 <jsemar> well, it'd be a new instrument, a sort of partial transaction, that just contained an amount, and a signature from the pk
2220 2011-05-13 17:31:58 <sipa> what's the point?
2221 2011-05-13 17:32:03 <jsemar> to make bitcoins physical
2222 2011-05-13 17:32:13 <sipa> no if you give me a card you issued
2223 2011-05-13 17:32:15 <jsemar> so you can 'print' this up, scan it and redeem it
2224 2011-05-13 17:32:24 <sipa> bu you can't
2225 2011-05-13 17:32:28 <jsemar> the redemption would complete the transaction
2226 2011-05-13 17:32:28 <ArtForz> still the same problem
2227 2011-05-13 17:32:42 <sipa> as i said, you need a signature on the actual transaction
2228 2011-05-13 17:32:46 <sipa> not some part of it
2229 2011-05-13 17:32:57 <sacarlson> jsemar: they have a bitcard similar to that but requires trust in the isuer
2230 2011-05-13 17:33:10 <jsemar> sipa, i am talking hypothetically, as in achange to the underlying codebase
2231 2011-05-13 17:33:13 <sipa> now iirc there is something in the source code that allows blank signatures
2232 2011-05-13 17:33:24 <sacarlson> jsemar: bitcard is real today
2233 2011-05-13 17:33:25 <jsemar> support for what i am saying does not exist, i am just talking
2234 2011-05-13 17:33:31 <ArtForz> might as well just put a code on the card you enter at the issures website together with yout bitcoin address and get X btc
2235 2011-05-13 17:33:39 <jsemar> but bitcard can be compromised
2236 2011-05-13 17:34:07 <sipa> no but it is a nice alternative if possible
2237 2011-05-13 17:34:09 <sipa> i'll check the source
2238 2011-05-13 17:34:12 <ArtForz> requires the same trust, without having to put a 256 bit privkey on a scratchoff card
2239 2011-05-13 17:34:23 <sacarlson> jsemar: I don't know of any none connected methods that don't require a trusted party between them
2240 2011-05-13 17:35:03 <sipa> indeed it doesn't solve anything
2241 2011-05-13 17:35:06 <ArtForz> there are none
2242 2011-05-13 17:35:26 <sacarlson> jsemar: you trust versign to do transactions with you bank why not trust another go between to transact bitcoin
2243 2011-05-13 17:35:33 <ArtForz> it'd be like any other private centralized currency, just backed by bitcoins
2244 2011-05-13 17:35:51 <jsemar> sacarlson, i am saying you don't have to
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2246 2011-05-13 17:36:52 <WakiMiko> does the --addnode argument only take ips or also hostnames?
2247 2011-05-13 17:37:14 <ArtForz> it's -addnode, one -, and in current release only ips
2248 2011-05-13 17:37:22 <sacarlson> jsemar: well what you have said so far I don't see it yet.  but maybe you have a offline signed transaction with a group of signers trust attached
2249 2011-05-13 17:37:23 <ArtForz> I think next version will take hostnames
2250 2011-05-13 17:37:27 <krekbwoy> wouldnt it be easier to solve the whole "making bitcoins physical" thing with a escrow like ClearCoin?
2251 2011-05-13 17:37:40 <WakiMiko> thanks art
2252 2011-05-13 17:38:24 <jsemar> sort of, I am just saying you don't issue a transaction with your pk, you just 'authorize' a transaction with your pk, of a certain amount, and anyone with access to this authorization could complete the transaction on the network
2253 2011-05-13 17:38:42 <jsemar> the problem is you'd have to not spend the btc before it was redeemd
2254 2011-05-13 17:39:06 <WakiMiko> pretty much all arguments can also be specified in the config right? can i use several -addnode's?
2255 2011-05-13 17:39:09 <jsemar> i guess unless the authorization was published on the network..not offline like i was originally thinking
2256 2011-05-13 17:39:52 <sacarlson> jsemar: well that's what the group signers represent that they trust they you will never double spend the amount just like we trust checks we write to pay our rent
2257 2011-05-13 17:40:13 <jsemar> You basically broad cast to the network "I have authorized a transaction on this bitcoin, and anyone that can produce a signatrue containing this id i've included signed by my pk can redeem it'
2258 2011-05-13 17:40:35 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * raa4a3dda6430 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin/ (7 files): net-p2p/bitcoin: add pt and ru to LINGUAS http://tinyurl.com/437sq6s
2259 2011-05-13 17:41:03 <sacarlson> jsemar: the landlord deposits the check when he gets them and his signiture of redemtion will add to the trust you will recieve in your future purchases
2260 2011-05-13 17:41:55 <cosurgi> I lost it. is there a table listing stock speeds of ati GPUs ?
2261 2011-05-13 17:42:13 <cosurgi> not this one, it's too messy: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
2262 2011-05-13 17:43:01 <jsemar> I think i am not being clear
2263 2011-05-13 17:43:44 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
2264 2011-05-13 17:43:57 <sacarlson> jsemar: that's what I would call escrow that would also be cool and I'm researching that posibility for my casino activity
2265 2011-05-13 17:44:36 anatoly_l has joined
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2271 2011-05-13 17:47:26 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: FWIW, You can form escrow transactions directly in bitcoin, so you don't even need a trusted third party to handle the money.
2272 2011-05-13 17:48:13 gwelymernan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2273 2011-05-13 17:48:18 <gmaxwell> sacarlson: someone would need to write software for it, get miners to mine it, and provide arbitration services for people who need them.
2274 2011-05-13 17:48:59 eao has joined
2275 2011-05-13 17:51:27 <dinox> Someone who has any experience of jgarzik's pushpool?
2276 2011-05-13 17:51:56 gavinandresen has joined
2277 2011-05-13 17:53:11 fetokun has joined
2278 2011-05-13 17:54:55 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I've been looking into that if you can provide me an example script to make that posible
2279 2011-05-13 17:55:12 bitcoiner has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
2280 2011-05-13 17:55:41 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: I've studied the scripts and even enabled them in my version of bitcoin called freecoin
2281 2011-05-13 17:56:57 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: the first plan is to submit a escrow transaction the reciever of the transaction see's it but can't spend it until the originator provides the key code
2282 2011-05-13 17:57:34 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
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2285 2011-05-13 17:59:03 <sacarlson> gmaxwell: options could be the reciever can push back the payment to the originator or no one ever gets the payment
2286 2011-05-13 17:59:18 fimp has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2287 2011-05-13 18:01:07 <sacarlson> if anyone would like to provide a donation to invest in such a technology to the creator of such a method might make it happen sooner
2288 2011-05-13 18:03:57 sethsethseth____ has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
2289 2011-05-13 18:05:56 <kreal-> so I give up
2290 2011-05-13 18:06:11 <kreal-> I just cant get amdoverdrivectrl to work on ubuntu.
2291 2011-05-13 18:06:48 eao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2292 2011-05-13 18:06:57 <gjs278> not a single duck was given that day
2293 2011-05-13 18:07:18 anatoly_l has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2305 2011-05-13 18:16:14 <decepto> I'm not too knowledgeable on hashing algorithms. But, is the Bitcoin development team worried about possible preimage attacks on the SHA-256?
2306 2011-05-13 18:16:22 <ArtForzZz> no
2307 2011-05-13 18:16:37 <ArtForzZz> it's double-sha256 everywhere
2308 2011-05-13 18:16:46 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2309 2011-05-13 18:17:15 <decepto> By that do you mean that the output of the first hash is used as the input of the second hash?
2310 2011-05-13 18:17:24 <ArtForzZz> yep
2311 2011-05-13 18:17:59 <decepto> I see.
2312 2011-05-13 18:19:04 <decepto> Are other hashing algorithms used, or is it strictly SHA-256?
2313 2011-05-13 18:19:18 <jgarzik> rot13
2314 2011-05-13 18:19:31 <decepto> I'm cloned the source this morning, but I haven't taken a look at it yet.
2315 2011-05-13 18:19:41 <jgarzik> Caesar's cipher
2316 2011-05-13 18:19:42 <cosurgi> I talk in rot26. It's impossible to crack.
2317 2011-05-13 18:19:47 <idnar> bitcoin should switch to base64 encryption
2318 2011-05-13 18:20:06 <decepto> YES! Good idea.
2319 2011-05-13 18:20:07 <ArtForzZz> yes
2320 2011-05-13 18:20:17 <ArtForzZz> RIPEMD160 for the pubkey->address hash
2321 2011-05-13 18:20:51 <idnar> (I was in a really painful meeting the other day where some suit asked what "base64" was, and before I could reply, one of the other suits said something utterly idiotic along the lines of "it's base64 encryption")
2322 2011-05-13 18:21:15 <decepto> What's the soup de jour?
2323 2011-05-13 18:21:31 <decepto> ...It's the soup of the day.
2324 2011-05-13 18:21:43 <decepto> That sounds delicious.
2325 2011-05-13 18:23:46 Xunie` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2327 2011-05-13 18:24:15 <jgarzik> #
2328 2011-05-13 18:24:15 <jgarzik> # blkmond - monitor bitcoin P2P network for new blocks
2329 2011-05-13 18:24:15 <jgarzik> #
2330 2011-05-13 18:24:16 Xunie has joined
2331 2011-05-13 18:24:20 <jgarzik> it's right there at the top of the file
2332 2011-05-13 18:24:23 <jgarzik> hidden from view
2333 2011-05-13 18:24:32 mtrlt has joined
2334 2011-05-13 18:24:49 <kreal-> 5 bitcoin to whomever fixes amdoverdrivectrl for me
2335 2011-05-13 18:24:59 <gjs278> me
2336 2011-05-13 18:25:01 <gjs278> ok
2337 2011-05-13 18:25:03 <gjs278> what do you need
2338 2011-05-13 18:25:09 <kreal-> no what do you need.
2339 2011-05-13 18:25:19 <gjs278> you run the program, what does it say
2340 2011-05-13 18:25:26 <kreal-> cant even compile it.
2341 2011-05-13 18:25:29 <gjs278> dont
2342 2011-05-13 18:25:33 <gjs278> I'll give you a binary for it
2343 2011-05-13 18:25:40 <jrmithdobbs> i need it ripped out of the gui so i can underclock ram below 900 ;P
2344 2011-05-13 18:25:44 <jrmithdobbs> but i bet he doesn't
2345 2011-05-13 18:25:45 <kreal-> .deb wont work.
2346 2011-05-13 18:25:47 <kreal-> no nothing.,
2347 2011-05-13 18:26:05 <gjs278> 64 bit or 32bit
2348 2011-05-13 18:26:08 <kreal-> $64
2349 2011-05-13 18:26:12 <gjs278> ok
2350 2011-05-13 18:26:14 <kreal-> ubuntu 11.04
2351 2011-05-13 18:26:18 <kreal-> or 10.10
2352 2011-05-13 18:26:25 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: if you can compile it I can give you a hacked up copy thatlets you bypass the gui.
2353 2011-05-13 18:26:26 <kreal-> dont care just make it work hehe
2354 2011-05-13 18:26:33 <gjs278> http://garyshood.com/bitcoin/
2355 2011-05-13 18:26:36 <gjs278> take that
2356 2011-05-13 18:26:40 <gjs278> try and run it
2357 2011-05-13 18:26:41 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that's exactly what I need ;P
2358 2011-05-13 18:26:57 <gjs278> jrmith all you need to do is run the gui
2359 2011-05-13 18:26:59 <gjs278> and then ctrl+c it
2360 2011-05-13 18:27:03 <gjs278> that will keep the ram underclocked
2361 2011-05-13 18:27:04 <gmaxwell> yea, I did this pain in the ass work already. Though I did a shit job of it.
2362 2011-05-13 18:27:11 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: ya but no monitors
2363 2011-05-13 18:27:11 <gmaxwell> gjs278: on a headless machine?
2364 2011-05-13 18:27:16 <gjs278> x11vnc
2365 2011-05-13 18:27:20 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: incoming in pm
2366 2011-05-13 18:27:20 <jrmithdobbs> wont work
2367 2011-05-13 18:27:31 <gjs278> you have to have a copy  ofX running to even do it
2368 2011-05-13 18:27:32 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: tried, has to be connected to the x server running the ati drivers ;P
2369 2011-05-13 18:27:34 <dinox> Someone who has any experience of jgarzik's pushpool?
2370 2011-05-13 18:27:35 <kreal-> seqmentation fault
2371 2011-05-13 18:27:39 <gjs278> dang
2372 2011-05-13 18:27:44 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: cool, thanks
2373 2011-05-13 18:27:51 <gjs278> k, what's the compile error then
2374 2011-05-13 18:28:18 <kreal-> think ive fucked everything up
2375 2011-05-13 18:28:21 <kreal-> so let me reinstall
2376 2011-05-13 18:28:33 <kreal-> its a ssd shouldnt take long.
2377 2011-05-13 18:29:04 <gjs278> x11vnc will hijack your current X session and let you run inside of it
2378 2011-05-13 18:29:09 <gjs278> so I don't see how it wouldnt work tbh
2379 2011-05-13 18:29:39 <gjs278> even so, if you did something like DISPLAY=:0.1 AMDADKFJDALkjfd and set a default profile from there, I still get the command feedback
2380 2011-05-13 18:29:41 <kreal-> brb im running this as router aswell
2381 2011-05-13 18:29:43 <gjs278> and then I ctrl+c it
2382 2011-05-13 18:29:46 <gjs278> and the memclock sticks
2383 2011-05-13 18:33:27 kreal- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2398 2011-05-13 18:59:06 <kreal-> still here gjs278 ?
2399 2011-05-13 18:59:25 <kreal-> ill be right with you, just installed the ati 11.5 drivers.
2400 2011-05-13 18:59:32 <kreal-> installin*
2401 2011-05-13 19:02:16 sacarlson has joined
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2403 2011-05-13 19:07:49 <gjs278> yeah I'm here kreal-
2404 2011-05-13 19:07:54 <gjs278> I didnt even know there were 11.5 drivers
2405 2011-05-13 19:08:12 <kreal-> just came out
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2415 2011-05-13 19:25:32 <mikeg47> I'm new to bitcoin dev and and have a simple web app use case I could use some help with...
2416 2011-05-13 19:25:48 <mikeg47> Step 1: User enters some info on a form
2417 2011-05-13 19:25:52 <mikeg47> Step 2: User is presented with a bitcoin address to accept storage of info
2418 2011-05-13 19:25:57 <mikeg47> Step 3: User sends bitcoin payment to address
2419 2011-05-13 19:26:01 <mikeg47> Step 4: System verifies receipt then archives info.
2420 2011-05-13 19:26:09 <mikeg47> Is there a recommended php api to talk to bitcoind?
2421 2011-05-13 19:26:16 <mikeg47> Is is better to generate unique payment addresses or use a pool?
2422 2011-05-13 19:27:35 <gjs278> you don't use a pool for creating addresses
2423 2011-05-13 19:27:37 amiller has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2424 2011-05-13 19:28:25 <gjs278> bitcoind itself has json commands you can use
2425 2011-05-13 19:28:26 <mikeg47> Rather than creating an new one each time... I would create 100 addresses and recycle them
2426 2011-05-13 19:28:30 <gjs278> they're pretty simple
2427 2011-05-13 19:28:39 <gjs278> bitcoind help to see them all
2428 2011-05-13 19:28:45 <gjs278> and then just interact with them that way
2429 2011-05-13 19:29:58 dreamer_ has joined
2430 2011-05-13 19:31:35 <dreamer_> sacarlson: message me if you would :)
2431 2011-05-13 19:31:43 <midnightmagic> ;;bc,stats
2432 2011-05-13 19:31:45 <gribble> Current Blocks: 123715 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 1276 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 19 hours, 2 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 206238.20512834
2433 2011-05-13 19:35:22 <midnightmagic> ;;calc ([bc,estimate]-[bc,diff])/[bc,diff]*100
2434 2011-05-13 19:35:24 <gribble> ((206,238.20512834 - 157,426.20628986) / 157,426.20628986) * 100 = 31.0062727
2435 2011-05-13 19:36:10 <neoeinstein> +31%
2436 2011-05-13 19:36:59 prax has joined
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2440 2011-05-13 19:45:01 prax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2441 2011-05-13 19:51:00 <midnightmagic> whew
2442 2011-05-13 19:52:39 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
2443 2011-05-13 19:58:06 phantomcircuit has joined
2444 2011-05-13 20:01:40 amiller has joined
2445 2011-05-13 20:02:14 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
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2447 2011-05-13 20:03:43 Intricate has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2448 2011-05-13 20:07:14 <lulzplzkthx> Anybody here have a Mac & iChat and can test an AppleScript for me real quick?
2449 2011-05-13 20:07:20 mikeg47 has left ()
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2453 2011-05-13 20:10:32 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r71 /branches/derby: Derby
2454 2011-05-13 20:11:42 Intricate has joined
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2457 2011-05-13 20:13:27 dishwara has joined
2458 2011-05-13 20:15:06 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r72 /branches/derby/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Apache Derby backed BlockStore, and a matching PingService
2459 2011-05-13 20:16:11 bk128 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2460 2011-05-13 20:17:12 <dinox> Someone who has any experience of jgarzik's pushpool?
2461 2011-05-13 20:17:50 kreal- has joined
2462 2011-05-13 20:18:41 <kreal-> okie gjs278 sorry for the wait
2463 2011-05-13 20:18:44 <kreal-> ran into touble...
2464 2011-05-13 20:18:46 <gjs278> lol
2465 2011-05-13 20:19:00 <kreal-> error while loading shared libraries
2466 2011-05-13 20:19:18 <kreal-> libwx_gtk2u_richtext-2.8.so.0
2467 2011-05-13 20:19:26 marlowe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2468 2011-05-13 20:19:33 <gjs278> install gtkwx
2469 2011-05-13 20:19:38 <kreal-> k
2470 2011-05-13 20:19:55 <gjs278> wxgtk actually
2471 2011-05-13 20:19:57 <gjs278> had it backwards
2472 2011-05-13 20:20:07 <kreal-> 2.8 right
2473 2011-05-13 20:20:21 <kreal-> the runtime or dev ?
2474 2011-05-13 20:21:46 <kreal-> segmentation fault
2475 2011-05-13 20:22:02 <kreal-> right after inf. nr. of performance levels. 3
2476 2011-05-13 20:22:16 <kreal-> ubuntu 10.10
2477 2011-05-13 20:22:25 dishwara has quit (Quit: Buy my shares DISHWARA @ glbse.com)
2478 2011-05-13 20:26:07 <kreal-> I installed the runtime.
2479 2011-05-13 20:27:08 <gjs278> hmm
2480 2011-05-13 20:27:20 <gjs278> so what feedback do you get exactly
2481 2011-05-13 20:27:24 <gjs278> pastebin it if you can
2482 2011-05-13 20:28:58 <kreal-> http://pastebin.com/RdCvBGnY
2483 2011-05-13 20:29:53 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2484 2011-05-13 20:30:11 phantomcircuit has joined
2485 2011-05-13 20:30:41 <gjs278> can you mine on all 3 cards at the moment?
2486 2011-05-13 20:30:48 <kreal-> no
2487 2011-05-13 20:30:57 <gjs278> why not
2488 2011-05-13 20:31:03 <kreal-> i only installed fglrxinfo and ati drivers
2489 2011-05-13 20:31:06 <gjs278> oh ok
2490 2011-05-13 20:31:30 <gjs278> did you do aticonfig --initial --adapter=all to make sure all 3 cards are at least being used in X
2491 2011-05-13 20:31:41 <kreal-> yes
2492 2011-05-13 20:31:46 <kreal-> no
2493 2011-05-13 20:32:15 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
2494 2011-05-13 20:32:45 kreal- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2495 2011-05-13 20:34:03 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2496 2011-05-13 20:34:17 <gjs278> that faggot robot disconnected again
2497 2011-05-13 20:34:21 <gjs278> someone bring him back
2498 2011-05-13 20:35:16 <dreamer_> *humps the robot*
2499 2011-05-13 20:35:26 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
2500 2011-05-13 20:36:50 kreal- has joined
2501 2011-05-13 20:37:50 <kreal-> well that made something fuckup.
2502 2011-05-13 20:38:19 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2503 2011-05-13 20:38:23 <gjs278> no X after that?
2504 2011-05-13 20:38:35 <kreal-> might miss load "dri"
2505 2011-05-13 20:38:37 <kreal-> sec
2506 2011-05-13 20:41:03 <kreal-> okie
2507 2011-05-13 20:41:21 <gjs278> on the sourceforge page for it
2508 2011-05-13 20:41:29 <gjs278> they have a bunch of different versions and they all include binaries
2509 2011-05-13 20:41:40 <kreal-> pastebin.com/PHziTL7v
2510 2011-05-13 20:41:50 <kreal-> ive tryed them all.
2511 2011-05-13 20:44:19 <gjs278> are you basically going for the memory downclock on 5870s
2512 2011-05-13 20:44:26 <kreal-> yes
2513 2011-05-13 20:44:32 <kreal-> around 300
2514 2011-05-13 20:44:40 <kreal-> 935/300
2515 2011-05-13 20:44:51 <gjs278> is od and all of that stuff on right now
2516 2011-05-13 20:44:56 <gjs278> through aticonfig
2517 2011-05-13 20:45:09 <kreal-> max low is 900
2518 2011-05-13 20:45:17 <kreal-> yes
2519 2011-05-13 20:45:40 <gjs278> okay
2520 2011-05-13 20:45:47 <gjs278> try
2521 2011-05-13 20:45:49 <gjs278> AMDOverdriveCtrl -b
2522 2011-05-13 20:46:25 <kreal-> same
2523 2011-05-13 20:46:29 <gjs278> seg fault
2524 2011-05-13 20:46:32 <kreal-> yes
2525 2011-05-13 20:46:37 <gjs278> wow
2526 2011-05-13 20:46:40 <gjs278> well it's not the gui then I think
2527 2011-05-13 20:47:12 <kreal-> well I really dont know
2528 2011-05-13 20:47:16 <kreal-> been at it all day.
2529 2011-05-13 20:47:29 <gjs278> -b uses no gui
2530 2011-05-13 20:47:33 <gjs278> it's the batch mode
2531 2011-05-13 20:47:35 <kreal-> yes
2532 2011-05-13 20:48:06 <gjs278> try doing -b --adapter-index=0
2533 2011-05-13 20:48:15 <gjs278> that will target card #1
2534 2011-05-13 20:48:20 <kreal-> was trying to make a profile.ovdr
2535 2011-05-13 20:48:28 <kreal-> same seq fault
2536 2011-05-13 20:48:35 <kreal-> --help works though...
2537 2011-05-13 20:48:46 <gjs278> you're using a clean .AMDOverdriveCtrl dir right
2538 2011-05-13 20:49:12 <kreal-> yes
2539 2011-05-13 20:49:22 <kreal-> the only item in Downloads
2540 2011-05-13 20:49:40 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2541 2011-05-13 20:50:22 <kreal-> im thinking ill make a virtual machine and make amdoverdrivectrl work there, then just copy the .
2542 2011-05-13 20:50:28 <kreal-> ovdr file
2543 2011-05-13 20:51:02 <gjs278> I doubt it's the .AMD folder
2544 2011-05-13 20:51:23 nanotube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2545 2011-05-13 20:51:23 <gjs278> my only guess left would be to try different driver versions
2546 2011-05-13 20:51:23 lulzplzkthx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2547 2011-05-13 20:52:15 lulzplzkthx has joined
2548 2011-05-13 20:52:19 rhett_ has joined
2549 2011-05-13 20:52:38 <rhett_> who maintains the official bitcoin software?
2550 2011-05-13 20:52:49 <gmaxwell> the people listed in git
2551 2011-05-13 20:52:55 <rhett_> i read the original author dissapeard
2552 2011-05-13 20:53:10 <WakiMiko> im satoshi
2553 2011-05-13 20:53:11 <kreal-> nope
2554 2011-05-13 20:53:18 <kreal-> seq in batch mode as well.
2555 2011-05-13 20:53:19 <phantomcircuit> NO IM SATOSHI
2556 2011-05-13 20:53:49 <rhett_> so, if the current authors want to change the sytem, they can update the software, and wait till the clients take over more than 50% of cpu to vote on a change?
2557 2011-05-13 20:53:56 <kreal-> ./AMDOverdriveCtrl --batch-mode --adapter-index=1 ../.AMDOverdriveCtrl/default.ovdr
2558 2011-05-13 20:54:01 <gmaxwell> rhett_: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master
2559 2011-05-13 20:54:07 <rhett_> like if they want to make there be 100M coins?
2560 2011-05-13 20:54:08 <ArtForz> in short, no.
2561 2011-05-13 20:54:48 <gmaxwell> rhett_: it takes freeking forver for new software to be adopted. It's not like that kind of change could be done in secret.
2562 2011-05-13 20:54:57 <ArtForz> yeah, totally easy, theres like no one watching changes to git head </sarcasm>
2563 2011-05-13 20:55:13 <rhett_> well, no, it's not necessarily evil to make there be 100M coins
2564 2011-05-13 20:55:21 <ArtForz> yes it is
2565 2011-05-13 20:55:22 <rhett_> but I'm wondering if the system allows for that
2566 2011-05-13 20:55:25 <gmaxwell> And it's not good enough to have most of the network for many changes. You basically have to have it all for a lot of them.
2567 2011-05-13 20:55:51 <ArtForz> yep
2568 2011-05-13 20:55:51 <rhett_> why?  what if it turns out the 21M number was a bit too low?
2569 2011-05-13 20:55:54 <ArtForz> it devaluates the existing coins
2570 2011-05-13 20:55:55 <gmaxwell> Since any non-updated clients will ignore the 'invalid' blocks.
2571 2011-05-13 20:56:08 <rhett_> ArtForz, so does mining
2572 2011-05-13 20:56:12 <rhett_> so mining is evil
2573 2011-05-13 20:56:16 <gasteve> btw, I think this node.js client may become the most important second client to the main one...so, we're likely to see some good client diversity very soon
2574 2011-05-13 20:56:19 <gmaxwell> rhett_: How could it be too low? Divide the coins further.
2575 2011-05-13 20:56:19 <ArtForz> errr.. .no, it doesnt
2576 2011-05-13 20:56:39 <ArtForz> the rate of bitcoiuns getting mined is pretty much fixed
2577 2011-05-13 20:56:41 <gasteve> and then you also have bitcoinj
2578 2011-05-13 20:56:42 <gmaxwell> rhett_: the result of mining is very predictable and baked into the system.
2579 2011-05-13 20:56:44 <rhett_> I'm asking, could patches be made, like for instance to increase the mining rate
2580 2011-05-13 20:56:46 <ArtForz> duesn't matter if it's 1 or 1M miners
2581 2011-05-13 20:56:48 <rhett_> or decrease it
2582 2011-05-13 20:57:01 <rhett_> i havent' dug into the bitcoin code
2583 2011-05-13 20:57:09 <kreal-> gjs278: i think I give up
2584 2011-05-13 20:57:11 <rhett_> i'm wondering, like what changes are possible over the next 10 years
2585 2011-05-13 20:57:14 Incitatus has joined
2586 2011-05-13 20:57:19 <gmaxwell> rhett_: all the non-updated clients will ignore the result of such a change.
2587 2011-05-13 20:57:20 <gjs278> I'd just try different drivers
2588 2011-05-13 20:57:24 pigeons has joined
2589 2011-05-13 20:57:27 <gjs278> there's clearly something wrong with it trying to access the card
2590 2011-05-13 20:57:28 <kreal-> of wxgtk?
2591 2011-05-13 20:57:32 <kreal-> oh
2592 2011-05-13 20:57:34 <kreal-> hmm
2593 2011-05-13 20:57:35 <gjs278> no, the actual fglrx drivers
2594 2011-05-13 20:57:41 <gjs278> because batchmode wouldn't load thegui
2595 2011-05-13 20:57:45 <gmaxwell> and as gasteve points out— there is more than one implementation.
2596 2011-05-13 20:57:47 <gjs278> and even that fails
2597 2011-05-13 20:58:47 <gasteve> it would be interesting if there was a way to detect and monitor the diversity of clients on the network...sort of like how the division of mining power among the pools is being tracked
2598 2011-05-13 20:59:14 <gasteve> similar to the pools, it might be a good idea of no one client represents >50% of the bitcoin nodes
2599 2011-05-13 20:59:45 <ArtForz> gasteve: there is
2600 2011-05-13 21:00:00 <ArtForz> isn't the guy doing the bitcoin node map already doing client stats?
2601 2011-05-13 21:00:05 mtve has joined
2602 2011-05-13 21:00:08 <gasteve> not sure
2603 2011-05-13 21:00:11 <kreal-> gjs278: send me your bitcoin address, gonna give you 2 bitcoin anyhow.
2604 2011-05-13 21:00:37 <gasteve> (not even sure I've seen the bitcoin node map)
2605 2011-05-13 21:00:57 <ArtForz> it's on the forum... somewhere
2606 2011-05-13 21:01:31 <ArtForz> use the search, luke!
2607 2011-05-13 21:01:41 <gmaxwell> gasteve: lack of client diversity was what I told someone when they asked about the 'biggest technical weakness' today.
2608 2011-05-13 21:01:52 <kreal-> its just funny gjs278
2609 2011-05-13 21:01:56 justanotheruser has joined
2610 2011-05-13 21:01:57 <ArtForz> huh?
2611 2011-05-13 21:02:02 <kreal->        Current Clocks :    157           300
2612 2011-05-13 21:02:02 <kreal->              Current Peak :    870           1200
2613 2011-05-13 21:02:02 <kreal->   Configurable Peak Range : [600-2000]     [900-2000]
2614 2011-05-13 21:02:11 <ArtForz> more like "flat flood networks scale. not."
2615 2011-05-13 21:02:25 <kreal-> how can It be 300 when it auto sets it.
2616 2011-05-13 21:02:33 <gasteve> gmaxwell: I agree
2617 2011-05-13 21:02:59 <gasteve> it's sorta like everyone running windows...it makes for a juicy target for virus writers
2618 2011-05-13 21:03:07 <gmaxwell> ArtForz: if your data rate is limited to 1MB/10minutes flooding is only mostly awful.
2619 2011-05-13 21:03:40 <ArtForz> compared to "let's change the basic network topology" changing the 1MB block limit is rather... trivial
2620 2011-05-13 21:03:43 <gmaxwell> I expected bitcoin to get some kind of distributed steiner tree solver eventually.
2621 2011-05-13 21:06:14 therealnanotube has joined
2622 2011-05-13 21:06:16 <rhett_> pools can't have more than 50% cpu?
2623 2011-05-13 21:06:44 <gmaxwell> ArtForz: some kind of automatic tree distribution plus miners optionally peering with each other would greatly reduce bandwidth usage.
2624 2011-05-13 21:07:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, bandwidth is pretty trivial...
2625 2011-05-13 21:07:07 <ArtForz> yep
2626 2011-05-13 21:07:11 <gmaxwell> rhett_: They _can_. But having a single authority with more than 50% of the hashpower makes various highly public funnybusiness possible.
2627 2011-05-13 21:07:11 gribble has joined
2628 2011-05-13 21:07:23 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: this is assuming some future when blocks are >1MB.
2629 2011-05-13 21:07:39 vorlov has joined
2630 2011-05-13 21:07:50 <gmaxwell> (I just said about that flooding isn't that horrific with 1MB blocks)
2631 2011-05-13 21:07:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 10MB/10minutes isn't that much
2632 2011-05-13 21:08:57 therealnanotube is now known as nanotube
2633 2011-05-13 21:10:59 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if you're really only supporting 10 minutes you'll get far behind at some points. You need some speedup to cover growth and lucky spans.
2634 2011-05-13 21:11:11 <gmaxwell> and if we're going to assume 10MB, why not 100MB?
2635 2011-05-13 21:12:29 <phantomcircuit> true
2636 2011-05-13 21:12:35 <phantomcircuit> still that's FAR off
2637 2011-05-13 21:12:41 <ArtForz> yep
2638 2011-05-13 21:13:09 <gmaxwell> Sorry, when I say eventually I usually mean many years. :)
2639 2011-05-13 21:14:23 <gmaxwell> the important bit is that if someone looks at the current design and says zomg no scaling, there are a couple of good answers: it works fine as is, and it can be made more efficient, and this isn't the current limiting factor— the 1MB block is more limiting.
2640 2011-05-13 21:15:29 galaxyAbstractor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2641 2011-05-13 21:16:11 <CIA-103> bitcoinj: miron@google.com * r73 /branches/derby/src/com/google/bitcoin/examples/DerbyPingService.java: comment out test code
2642 2011-05-13 21:22:46 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2646 2011-05-13 21:26:38 BlueMatt has joined
2647 2011-05-13 21:28:04 <grbgout> As the value of bitcoin increases will the default fees, e.g. the 0.01 fee, decrease?
2648 2011-05-13 21:28:12 <JunK-Y> is there any project to wrap bitcoin for BOINC framework?
2649 2011-05-13 21:28:17 <ArtForz> grbgout: yes
2650 2011-05-13 21:28:30 <grbgout> ArtForz: k
2651 2011-05-13 21:28:38 <ArtForz> theres already preparations to move to 0.0005 min fee
2652 2011-05-13 21:29:18 phantomcircuit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2653 2011-05-13 21:30:21 JunK-Y has quit (Changing host)
2654 2011-05-13 21:30:21 JunK-Y has joined
2655 2011-05-13 21:30:23 <BlueMatt> JunK-Y: no, because IIRC there was someone talking about it saying about boinc being designed for download and work for a while, not streaming work
2656 2011-05-13 21:31:02 <dinox> hmm, BlueMatt do you have any experience of pushpool?
2657 2011-05-13 21:31:18 <BlueMatt> no...? why tag me?
2658 2011-05-13 21:31:39 pnicholson has joined
2659 2011-05-13 21:32:01 <dinox> You know a lot :)
2660 2011-05-13 21:32:21 <BlueMatt> lol, only about bitcoin mainline...the rest is just what I pick up from hanging around ;)
2661 2011-05-13 21:33:51 <dinox> hehe
2662 2011-05-13 21:37:28 F4C3_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2663 2011-05-13 21:38:40 <JunK-Y> BlueMatt: thanks
2664 2011-05-13 21:47:33 phantomcircuit has joined
2665 2011-05-13 21:49:08 Nicksasa is now known as Nicksasa-Sleep
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2667 2011-05-13 21:54:57 LanceRushing has joined
2668 2011-05-13 21:54:59 <LanceRushing> ;;bc,gen 600000
2669 2011-05-13 21:55:01 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 3.83352329052 BTC per day and 0.159730137105 BTC per hour.
2670 2011-05-13 21:56:47 rhett_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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2678 2011-05-13 22:12:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: re: locking std::string's...well it looks like we were wrong...doing some printf(...&strWalletPass[0]) before and after pulling the wallet from wxGetPasswordFromUser appears to be identical
2679 2011-05-13 22:13:23 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2680 2011-05-13 22:17:57 Sedra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2681 2011-05-13 22:19:09 AAA_awright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2682 2011-05-13 22:20:09 <sipa> BlueMatt: locking the string, or locking its data?
2683 2011-05-13 22:20:21 <BlueMatt> data
2684 2011-05-13 22:20:23 unomi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2685 2011-05-13 22:20:39 <BlueMatt> (yea should always be String/vch thing[0] not String/vch thing)
2686 2011-05-13 22:21:29 <BlueMatt> hence why I said I needed to go back through and check all the MLOCK()s
2687 2011-05-13 22:23:19 <sipa> BlueMatt: where in the code, precisely?
2688 2011-05-13 22:24:20 <BlueMatt> everywhere where it mlock()s...pretty much
2689 2011-05-13 22:24:48 <BlueMatt> easier to just mlock(&vch/strData[0], vch/strData.size()/capacity())
2690 2011-05-13 22:27:57 <sipa> what is latest commit?
2691 2011-05-13 22:28:05 AAA_awright has joined
2692 2011-05-13 22:28:06 <BlueMatt> its not uploaded yet sorry
2693 2011-05-13 22:28:16 <BlueMatt> I just need to figure out how to MLOCK pkey in key.h
2694 2011-05-13 22:28:54 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/a5895c255c22ce1eae6841347488b0bdd6d11441
2695 2011-05-13 22:28:57 <BlueMatt> there ^
2696 2011-05-13 22:29:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: you *CANT*
2697 2011-05-13 22:29:58 <sipa> you don't know how openssl organizes that data
2698 2011-05-13 22:30:11 <BlueMatt> thats the problem...
2699 2011-05-13 22:30:12 <sipa> it may be a pointer, or it may be a complex data structure
2700 2011-05-13 22:30:21 <sipa> but you shouldn't touch it
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2702 2011-05-13 22:30:27 <sipa> and trust that openssl handles it for you
2703 2011-05-13 22:30:42 <BlueMatt> if I were in openssl code, one could mlock(&pkey, sizeof(EC_KEY))
2704 2011-05-13 22:30:46 <BlueMatt> but obviously not here
2705 2011-05-13 22:30:49 <sipa> no you can't
2706 2011-05-13 22:30:52 <sipa> even then
2707 2011-05-13 22:31:06 <sipa> the pkey sttructure does not contain anything sensitive
2708 2011-05-13 22:31:08 <BlueMatt> does openssl mlock?
2709 2011-05-13 22:31:14 <BlueMatt> ...private keys?
2710 2011-05-13 22:31:16 <sipa> only pointers to bignums
2711 2011-05-13 22:31:23 <BlueMatt> aka private keys...
2712 2011-05-13 22:31:25 <sipa> but you need to lock those bignums themselves
2713 2011-05-13 22:31:28 <sipa> not the pointers to them
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2715 2011-05-13 22:31:59 <BitMark> nanotube: i have a patch for the colloquy script finally
2716 2011-05-13 22:32:04 <sipa> or it may be pointers to other ec structures, containing pointers to bignums
2717 2011-05-13 22:32:08 <BlueMatt> yea grep openssl shows no mlock references
2718 2011-05-13 22:32:18 <nanotube> BitMark: nice. did you have to grep out the html crap?
2719 2011-05-13 22:32:21 <BlueMatt> yes, I know not really possible, I was just hoping it was
2720 2011-05-13 22:32:22 <BitMark> yep
2721 2011-05-13 22:32:31 <BitMark> sed actually
2722 2011-05-13 22:32:41 <nanotube> BitMark: whatever, i meant regexp :) hehe
2723 2011-05-13 22:32:59 <BitMark> 			set challengeRaw to text item 2 of messageText
2724 2011-05-13 22:32:59 <BitMark> 			set challenge to (do shell script "echo " & quoted form of challengeRaw & "| sed 's/<[^>]*>//g'")
2725 2011-05-13 22:33:06 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2726 2011-05-13 22:33:15 <nanotube> BitMark: thanks for the work - if you don't mind, would you push out a pull request on github please?
2727 2011-05-13 22:33:24 agricocb has joined
2728 2011-05-13 22:33:28 <BitMark> sure remind me the repo i need to fork?
2729 2011-05-13 22:34:03 unomi has joined
2730 2011-05-13 22:35:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: openssl indeed doesn't seem to mlock
2731 2011-05-13 22:35:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: but maybe you can define an own malloc function or so
2732 2011-05-13 22:36:10 <BlueMatt> yea, if openssl doesnt do it by default, Im not gonna mess with that stuff, just gets way too complicated
2733 2011-05-13 22:36:26 <BlueMatt> if its our own data, of course, but hacking mlock()s into openssl...
2734 2011-05-13 22:36:59 <sipa> CRYPTO_set_mem_functions()
2735 2011-05-13 22:37:07 <sipa> is the functioncall to set an own malloc :)
2736 2011-05-13 22:37:19 <BlueMatt> now thats interesting...
2737 2011-05-13 22:37:24 <BlueMatt> well if they have support for it...
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2740 2011-05-13 22:38:28 <sipa> the functions are equivalents to malloc/realloc/free
2741 2011-05-13 22:39:08 <sipa> there is even a function "CRYPTO_set_locked_mem_functions"
2742 2011-05-13 22:39:11 <BlueMatt> where do you see these docs btw? or are you grepping?
2743 2011-05-13 22:39:33 <BlueMatt> google really doesnt know anything about CRYPTO_set_mem_functions
2744 2011-05-13 22:41:55 <sipa> i'm looking at the source of openssl 0.9.8o
2745 2011-05-13 22:42:08 <sipa> those locked functions don't seem to be used really
2746 2011-05-13 22:42:24 <sipa> not sure what they're for
2747 2011-05-13 22:42:38 <BlueMatt> hm, alright, so its just the CRYPTO_set_mem_functions() itself or are others used as well?
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2752 2011-05-13 22:47:12 <sipa> those are used, i think
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2758 2011-05-13 22:49:05 <BitMark> nanotube: k pull request created
2759 2011-05-13 22:49:26 <nanotube> BitMark: thanks :) cehcking
2760 2011-05-13 22:50:20 BitMark has quit (Quit: BitMark)
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2763 2011-05-13 23:00:56 <BlueMatt> andone know off-hand the command to regenerate the locale binary files?
2764 2011-05-13 23:02:58 Sedra-afk is now known as Sedra
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2773 2011-05-13 23:18:50 <dinox> Is there an approximate of number of shares needed for a block solve?
2774 2011-05-13 23:19:07 <molecular> ;bc,prob
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2777 2011-05-13 23:20:03 dbitcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2779 2011-05-13 23:22:37 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
2780 2011-05-13 23:22:39 <gribble> Current Blocks: 123742 | Current Difficulty: 157426.20628986 | Next Difficulty At Block: 124991 | Next Difficulty In: 1249 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 15 hours, 35 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 205383.99057638
2781 2011-05-13 23:23:31 justmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2782 2011-05-13 23:24:41 <sipa> dinox: exactly the difficulty
2783 2011-05-13 23:24:52 <sipa> on average
2784 2011-05-13 23:26:23 justmoon has joined
2785 2011-05-13 23:27:48 <necrodearia> What does this patch do/mean?  http://pastebin.com/dkNn3kTb
2786 2011-05-13 23:29:30 <BlueMatt> necrodearia: IIRC it has something to do with build problems on some platforms
2787 2011-05-13 23:29:57 <BlueMatt> I think it was osx complaining about clobbered register
2788 2011-05-13 23:30:19 <necrodearia> hmm, it appears to be used for gentoo linux ebuild also for some reason
2789 2011-05-13 23:30:38 <BlueMatt> could be complaints there too, but nothing nefarious
2790 2011-05-13 23:31:04 <BlueMatt> anyway, asm miner should be removed entirely so...
2791 2011-05-13 23:32:49 anon23097 has joined
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2793 2011-05-13 23:33:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: in principle, I agree
2794 2011-05-13 23:33:49 <anon23097> How does one compile bitcoind?
2795 2011-05-13 23:33:57 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: but what we have right now is straight from cryptopp
2796 2011-05-13 23:34:12 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: it's nice to have alignment with that
2797 2011-05-13 23:34:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: but... if it is causing problems, that's another story
2798 2011-05-13 23:34:35 <BlueMatt> meh, fair enough, im just in the camp of "why do we still have cpu miner in client at all?"
2799 2011-05-13 23:35:13 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: testnet
2800 2011-05-13 23:35:23 <anon23097> Is bitcoind compilable with G++ 4.3?
2801 2011-05-13 23:35:27 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: jgarzik cpuminer is still faster
2802 2011-05-13 23:35:30 <luke-jr> anon23097: yes
2803 2011-05-13 23:35:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I've seen a fair amount of "this has been heating my room for days and still NOTHING!"
2804 2011-05-13 23:35:39 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: not faster to get running
2805 2011-05-13 23:35:43 <luke-jr> lol
2806 2011-05-13 23:35:46 <andrew12> bitcoin users might find this interesting: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2008/02/return-to-castle-goldenstein-gold.html
2807 2011-05-13 23:36:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: that's why version 0.3.22 removes the option 'Generate Coins' from the GUI
2808 2011-05-13 23:36:09 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: meh, if someone is testing something, they probably know how to run cpuminer
2809 2011-05-13 23:36:12 <gmaxwell> oh, argument removed then.
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2811 2011-05-13 23:36:13 <anon23097> I just get errors about Boost classes that "cannot be overloaded".
2812 2011-05-13 23:36:16 <gmaxwell> I should shutup more. Sorry.
2813 2011-05-13 23:36:43 <anon23097> Is there any documentation somewhere on how to make it compile?
2814 2011-05-13 23:37:01 <sipa> anon23097: can you paste the error somewhere?
2815 2011-05-13 23:37:01 <jgarzik> anon23097: step #1: buy a nice bottle of Scotch
2816 2011-05-13 23:37:03 <BlueMatt> anon23097: never seen boost issues, and where did you get the version you installed?
2817 2011-05-13 23:37:24 <anon23097> From the Debian repository.
2818 2011-05-13 23:37:32 <gmaxwell> step #2: rewrite bitcoin in straight C.
2819 2011-05-13 23:37:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: lol, oh come on, its not _that_ bad, I have it compiling on everything except osx, on many blocks
2820 2011-05-13 23:37:46 <BlueMatt> boxes*
2821 2011-05-13 23:37:47 <gmaxwell> step #3: get an operating system with packages newer than the 1920s. :(
2822 2011-05-13 23:38:10 <luke-jr> ;;bc,calc [bc,eligius]
2823 2011-05-13 23:38:11 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 30021821.399 Khps, given current difficulty of 157426.20628986 , is 6 hours, 15 minutes, and 21 seconds
2824 2011-05-13 23:38:20 <sipa> anon23097: debian repository? link?
2825 2011-05-13 23:38:31 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: is your US stuff still down?
2826 2011-05-13 23:38:37 <anon23097> I dont have a link. I just used "aptitude".
2827 2011-05-13 23:38:37 <BlueMatt> Id like to see packages from the 1920s, all they do is calculate trajectories, if that...
2828 2011-05-13 23:38:38 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, hasn't been for a while
2829 2011-05-13 23:38:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: packages.debian.com or is it .org?
2830 2011-05-13 23:39:00 <BlueMatt> anon23097: what version of debian?
2831 2011-05-13 23:39:03 <sipa> debian packages bitcoin? :o
2832 2011-05-13 23:39:08 <sipa> in their main repo?
2833 2011-05-13 23:39:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, hes talking about boost
2834 2011-05-13 23:39:17 <jgarzik> 'aptitude update' should show links
2835 2011-05-13 23:39:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: its in unstable, only bitcoind
2836 2011-05-13 23:39:34 <sipa> ok
2837 2011-05-13 23:39:52 * anon23097 is checking in unstable...
2838 2011-05-13 23:40:04 <BlueMatt> Id assume in main repo for next version, but I haven't really been following that/seen anything new there for a while
2839 2011-05-13 23:40:13 <sipa> haha https://gist.github.com/971505
2840 2011-05-13 23:40:20 <anon23097> Ahh, there it is.
2841 2011-05-13 23:40:23 <sipa> loosely defined c constructs
2842 2011-05-13 23:40:35 <luke-jr> sipa: Debian packages bitcoind in main
2843 2011-05-13 23:40:50 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: since when is it in main, I thought some unstable repo?
2844 2011-05-13 23:40:59 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: unstable main, yes
2845 2011-05-13 23:41:00 <sipa> well, in sid main probably
2846 2011-05-13 23:41:10 <anon23097> Shit. It depends on "unavaliable" libraries.
2847 2011-05-13 23:41:21 <luke-jr> someone should get Debian to pull spesmilo
2848 2011-05-13 23:41:23 <sipa> anon23097: wx2.9?
2849 2011-05-13 23:41:27 <luke-jr> since wx won't get in ever
2850 2011-05-13 23:41:40 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: please, by all means, do
2851 2011-05-13 23:41:56 <anon23097> I'm trying to build bitcoind for a VPS.
2852 2011-05-13 23:42:17 <luke-jr> anon23097: FWIW, it *is* rocket science.
2853 2011-05-13 23:42:25 <BlueMatt> I think Ill sign up for ubuntu maintainership for bitcoind when 0.4.0 comes out and get gitian downloader scripts put in a package :)
2854 2011-05-13 23:44:00 <anon23097> Seems that I *could* build it... IF I rebuilt everything on the VPS from source *first*.
2855 2011-05-13 23:44:15 <sipa> anon23097: i compile bitcoind on my vps
2856 2011-05-13 23:44:27 <BlueMatt> anon23097: I think you are having an uncommon problem, what exactly is your error
2857 2011-05-13 23:44:30 <BlueMatt> which you have yet to share
2858 2011-05-13 23:44:48 <sipa> (ubuntu 10.10, though)
2859 2011-05-13 23:46:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: It really is a pain to compile. E.g. I tried on an older F13 system recently. Initial thwarted because fedora patches out the ecc stuff from openssl, and openssl can be a @#$@. Then hit with inscrutiable issues with boost version incompatiblity.  I gave up rather than trying to compile a more recent version of boost.
2860 2011-05-13 23:46:39 <BlueMatt> meh, it works great on ubuntu, anything else...not so much
2861 2011-05-13 23:46:41 <anon23097> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=QQeVX5cn
2862 2011-05-13 23:46:42 <gmaxwell> As someone who normally writes stuff that compiles with a straight up C89 compiler, I found it pretty painful. YMMV.
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2866 2011-05-13 23:52:18 <BlueMatt> anon23097: hm, google turns up a couple really old discussion on similar issues, but nothing recent...what version of boost?
2867 2011-05-13 23:53:03 <anon23097> Boost 1.35
2868 2011-05-13 23:53:46 <BlueMatt> build-unix.txt (in doc) appears to recommend either boost 1.4+ or 1.37
2869 2011-05-13 23:53:59 <BlueMatt> maybe try with one of those?
2870 2011-05-13 23:54:34 <anon23097> Maybe. My copy of the source (bitcoin-0.3.20.2) doesn't have "doc", though.
2871 2011-05-13 23:55:01 <BlueMatt> yea its just build-unix.txt in pre-git
2872 2011-05-13 23:55:49 EPiSKiNG has joined
2873 2011-05-13 23:55:50 <BlueMatt> does ByteCoin hang around on irc?
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