1 2011-05-20 00:00:15 <erbs> yeah i mean the current implementation in bitcoin
2 2011-05-20 00:00:28 <sipa> bitcoin uses 256-bit ECDSA
3 2011-05-20 00:00:32 <lfm> erba kinda funny really how things work, if you want to for instance make a chain of txn, each depends on the previous one, you can know the input hashes for each and send them all out right away but if you had to know the txn numbers ofr each you would need to wait till each one was published before you could generate the next txn
4 2011-05-20 00:00:33 <erbs> ahhh
5 2011-05-20 00:00:43 <jgarzik> luke-jr: pong
6 2011-05-20 00:01:21 <C4away> robthenob, why don't you go to an exchange and trade there?
7 2011-05-20 00:01:36 <Raccoon> hey. does the http://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php api keep an open connection with updates as they happen?
8 2011-05-20 00:01:46 <jlewis> Raccoon: no
9 2011-05-20 00:01:50 <lfm> or trade on #bitcoin-otc where it is encouraged
10 2011-05-20 00:01:51 <Raccoon> bummer
11 2011-05-20 00:01:59 <jlewis> Raccoon: there's a websockets feed though
12 2011-05-20 00:02:06 <molecular> Raccoon, there's a beta websocket api for mtgox
13 2011-05-20 00:02:07 <jlewis> ws://websocket.mtgox.com/mtgox
14 2011-05-20 00:02:10 <Raccoon> i hear about websockets but i don't see links
15 2011-05-20 00:02:19 <jlewis> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=5855.0;all
16 2011-05-20 00:02:21 <Raccoon> where's the http:// on the api
17 2011-05-20 00:02:28 locks has left ()
18 2011-05-20 00:02:34 <jlewis> it's beta the info is all in that thread
19 2011-05-20 00:02:56 <molecular> but the depth-stuff is pretty buggy, racoon
20 2011-05-20 00:03:10 <Raccoon> it is?
21 2011-05-20 00:03:11 <jlewis> there's weird rounding errors
22 2011-05-20 00:03:16 <jlewis> in the websockets api
23 2011-05-20 00:03:19 <molecular> I'd wait for new mtgox in june, MagicalTux said it'll be fixed then
24 2011-05-20 00:03:23 <Raccoon> what is this ws:// protocol
25 2011-05-20 00:03:26 <jlewis> websockets..
26 2011-05-20 00:03:32 <jlewis> read the forum thread :)
27 2011-05-20 00:03:38 <Raccoon> in terms of plain raw socket
28 2011-05-20 00:03:43 <jlewis> it's just http
29 2011-05-20 00:03:44 <Raccoon> what type of protocol does it look like
30 2011-05-20 00:03:46 <Raccoon> ok
31 2011-05-20 00:03:51 <jlewis> with a persistent connection
32 2011-05-20 00:03:55 <molecular> Raccoon, there's more than just rounding problems..
33 2011-05-20 00:04:06 <Raccoon> so stick with http://mtgox.com/code/data/getDepth.php ?
34 2011-05-20 00:04:20 <Raccoon> just ping every 10 seconds or so
35 2011-05-20 00:04:31 <molecular> Raccoon, until mtgox migrates to new system, I would
36 2011-05-20 00:04:41 <jlewis> what's broken besides the rounding issues?
37 2011-05-20 00:04:44 <Raccoon> why not just keep the current api
38 2011-05-20 00:04:50 <Raccoon> with a persistant connection
39 2011-05-20 00:04:53 <Raccoon> keep-alive
40 2011-05-20 00:05:00 <molecular> Raccoon, the current websocket api will likely be there
41 2011-05-20 00:05:13 <lfm> jlewis: what rounding issue?
42 2011-05-20 00:05:17 <molecular> Raccoon, so you can check it out and do implementation, just expect it to change a little and maybe be less buggy ;)
43 2011-05-20 00:05:22 Ramokk has joined
44 2011-05-20 00:05:24 kika_ has joined
45 2011-05-20 00:05:37 <jlewis> lfm: the mtgox websocket api has issues with market depth volume data rounding
46 2011-05-20 00:05:46 jhulten has joined
47 2011-05-20 00:05:50 <JunK-Y> be careful if u do transactions with robthenob, i send him 10 btc, and he didnt pay yet.
48 2011-05-20 00:06:49 <kika_> is there any way to run linux from the network?
49 2011-05-20 00:06:49 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
50 2011-05-20 00:06:57 <kika_> i mean for example have 1 server PC that has a hard disk storing many linuxes, and then have many client computers without a hard disk and make those client computers boot over the network one of the linuxes stored on the server?
51 2011-05-20 00:07:13 <sipa> yes
52 2011-05-20 00:07:18 <kika_> sipa: how i can do that?
53 2011-05-20 00:07:31 <lfm> kika_: ya, network booting, is possible
54 2011-05-20 00:07:31 <molecular> search for nfsroot
55 2011-05-20 00:07:34 <jrmithdobbs> if you have to ask you probably can't do it well
56 2011-05-20 00:07:37 <sipa> boot via bootp/tftp, use nfs as root nfs filesystem
57 2011-05-20 00:07:46 <sipa> -ngs
58 2011-05-20 00:07:48 <sipa> -nfs
59 2011-05-20 00:08:00 <kika_> lfm: the client computers dont have hardisk
60 2011-05-20 00:08:14 <sipa> they don't need to
61 2011-05-20 00:08:16 <kika_> is there any tutorial explaining how to do this
62 2011-05-20 00:08:27 <lfm> kika_: use ramdisk? still possible
63 2011-05-20 00:08:41 <sipa> kika_: search for PXE
64 2011-05-20 00:08:51 <kika_> yes i already researched pxe a bit
65 2011-05-20 00:08:54 <luke-jr> jgarzik: any idea how to issue PCIe reset from userland? :D
66 2011-05-20 00:08:55 <lfm> kika_: not simple project, good luck
67 2011-05-20 00:08:56 <molecular> sipa, nfsroot is not that hard, really. if you want to _swap_ to nfs, well, that's another story ;)
68 2011-05-20 00:09:20 <kika_> basically i want the server computer to store many different linuxes instances
69 2011-05-20 00:09:27 <kika_> so each instance would be for a client computer
70 2011-05-20 00:09:40 <kika_> each client computer will boot its own instance
71 2011-05-20 00:09:47 <kika_> and each linux will have different libraries, drivers, etc
72 2011-05-20 00:10:02 <lfm> kika_: you are like clustering, look for cluster software places they have expertise in this I guess
73 2011-05-20 00:10:06 <sipa> yes yes, all possible
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76 2011-05-20 00:10:22 <kika_> sipa: via PXE?
77 2011-05-20 00:10:27 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
78 2011-05-20 00:10:45 <jrmithdobbs> nfs root sucks
79 2011-05-20 00:10:50 <lfm> kika_: bootp keys offa MAC address of each nonde
80 2011-05-20 00:10:56 falafell has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
81 2011-05-20 00:11:00 <jrmithdobbs> netboot like a man
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84 2011-05-20 00:11:04 BitterTea has joined
85 2011-05-20 00:11:43 <lfm> node
86 2011-05-20 00:12:05 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
87 2011-05-20 00:12:07 <lfm> can nfs root or ramdisk root, your choice
88 2011-05-20 00:12:22 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
89 2011-05-20 00:12:33 <C4away> with the default client is there any way to tell it to look to a node on the network instead of searching for them on the public network?
90 2011-05-20 00:12:44 vorlov has joined
91 2011-05-20 00:12:44 <C4away> I have port forwarded the first client ... will I need to do anyhting special for the second?
92 2011-05-20 00:12:49 <C4away> or only if it is a server node
93 2011-05-20 00:13:13 <lfm> C4away: -connect=192.168.xx.xx
94 2011-05-20 00:13:27 <C4away> on the windows exe I can do that from the command line?
95 2011-05-20 00:13:28 EvanR has joined
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98 2011-05-20 00:13:39 <lfm> C4away: any OS
99 2011-05-20 00:13:39 <C4away> write a .cmd script for it?
100 2011-05-20 00:13:42 <C4away> ok
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103 2011-05-20 00:15:02 <Raccoon> q. if someone were to sell 100 BTC for $1 USD/ea MTGOX
104 2011-05-20 00:15:03 <lfm> C4away: can put command line options in icon properties too
105 2011-05-20 00:15:14 <kika_> the info i found about pxe mostly refers to install linux on the network but not to run it over the network
106 2011-05-20 00:15:17 <Raccoon> would they simply buy up all the bids up to 100 BTC?
107 2011-05-20 00:15:27 <Raccoon> or would they only collect $100 off the deal
108 2011-05-20 00:15:42 <jlewis> Raccoon: huh?
109 2011-05-20 00:15:50 <erbs> Elliptic Curve Pintsov Vanstone Signature (ECPVS) scheme, which offers a highly secure signature that is six times smaller than an RSA-based signature.
110 2011-05-20 00:15:52 <erbs> interesting
111 2011-05-20 00:15:52 <Raccoon> there are plenty of bids above $1, yes.
112 2011-05-20 00:16:10 <Raccoon> if someone wanted to simply sell 100 BTC at to the top 100 BTC asks
113 2011-05-20 00:16:18 <Raccoon> would selling 100 BTC at $1 be effective?
114 2011-05-20 00:16:20 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
115 2011-05-20 00:16:21 <lfm> Raccoon: mtgox should/would actually pay them more than $1 for their shares
116 2011-05-20 00:16:27 <lfm> shares -> btc
117 2011-05-20 00:16:37 <Raccoon> that's my question. if
118 2011-05-20 00:16:38 <Raccoon> not should
119 2011-05-20 00:16:41 bitcoinbulletin has joined
120 2011-05-20 00:16:44 <lfm> would
121 2011-05-20 00:16:51 <gwillen> Raccoon: yes it works
122 2011-05-20 00:16:51 vorlov has quit (Client Quit)
123 2011-05-20 00:16:52 <jlewis> mtgox gives you the best deal possible, it doesn't allow you to fuck yourself afaik
124 2011-05-20 00:16:55 * Raccoon tries with 1 btc at $1
125 2011-05-20 00:16:59 <C4away> lfm, tried that and it said that it was not valid ... is there another tab?
126 2011-05-20 00:17:00 <gwillen> i have done it
127 2011-05-20 00:17:03 <Raccoon> ok
128 2011-05-20 00:17:04 <jlewis> Raccoon: it'll sell at market value
129 2011-05-20 00:17:13 <C4away> my wife's computer is the only windows one, I'm a little rusty
130 2011-05-20 00:17:15 caedes has joined
131 2011-05-20 00:17:28 <lfm> -connect=192.168.number.number?
132 2011-05-20 00:17:38 <C4away> it says "c:\something\bitcoin.exe"
133 2011-05-20 00:17:49 <C4away> I put: "c:\something\bitcoin.exe -connect=..."
134 2011-05-20 00:17:58 <C4away> when I hit OK it says that is not a valid command
135 2011-05-20 00:18:00 <C4away> should I use /
136 2011-05-20 00:18:01 <lfm> ya add space and -connect=...
137 2011-05-20 00:18:06 <C4away> is that what windows wants?
138 2011-05-20 00:18:11 <Raccoon> and would buying 100 BTC for $9999 /ea do the same?
139 2011-05-20 00:18:16 <kika_> maybe DRBL ?
140 2011-05-20 00:18:20 <jlewis> Raccoon: yes
141 2011-05-20 00:18:22 <gwillen> c4i
142 2011-05-20 00:18:40 <lfm> no, I think bitcoin on mswin still uses -s
143 2011-05-20 00:18:43 <Raccoon> jlewis, you would get BEST VALUE?
144 2011-05-20 00:18:45 <EvanR> what is all this talk about using block chains for other crap besides bank-account-like stuff
145 2011-05-20 00:18:45 <gwillen> C4away: are tje quotation marks literally there?
146 2011-05-20 00:18:50 <C4away> yes
147 2011-05-20 00:18:52 <C4away> they are in the box
148 2011-05-20 00:18:58 <jlewis> Raccoon: yeah, you can try it if you want with a small loss
149 2011-05-20 00:19:00 <EvanR> DNS, email, and alternative payloads like commodities?
150 2011-05-20 00:19:02 <Raccoon> or highest of that first 100 BTC block
151 2011-05-20 00:19:02 <C4away> put it outside the quotes?
152 2011-05-20 00:19:08 <gwillen> yes
153 2011-05-20 00:19:13 <C4away> i'll try thank you
154 2011-05-20 00:19:18 <gwillen> np :-)
155 2011-05-20 00:19:36 <kika_> lfm: what about drbl? sipa
156 2011-05-20 00:20:16 <EvanR> Raccoon: youre selling?
157 2011-05-20 00:20:24 <lfm> kika_: dunno, only really need tftp/bootp afaik
158 2011-05-20 00:20:35 <Raccoon> buying
159 2011-05-20 00:20:42 <EvanR> ah me too
160 2011-05-20 00:20:46 <C4away> does the cpu verify the blocks as they come in? why is it so bursty even on localnet?
161 2011-05-20 00:20:49 <C4away> er, localnetwork
162 2011-05-20 00:21:36 <gwillen> yes, it does verify
163 2011-05-20 00:21:51 <lfm> C4away: the bursts are just while the initial block chain download goes on, should even out after than
164 2011-05-20 00:21:53 <erbs> blockchock
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166 2011-05-20 00:22:39 <C4away> right, but I"m saying during the initial block chain download why is it bursty when the two hosts are on 100Mbps lan?
167 2011-05-20 00:22:49 <lfm> C4away: ya, each node verifies everything
168 2011-05-20 00:22:50 <C4away> just curious, I thought it would go faster
169 2011-05-20 00:23:10 <C4away> ok, that makes sense
170 2011-05-20 00:23:37 <lfm> C4away: the initial block chain download is not very nice yet, it does like sets of 500 blocks
171 2011-05-20 00:23:41 <phantomcircuit> C4away, the problem with the initial block download is mostly disk latency
172 2011-05-20 00:23:56 kika_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
173 2011-05-20 00:24:09 <C4away> good to know
174 2011-05-20 00:24:29 <C4away> would be cool if you could clone another chain that was already downloaded to a host you trust
175 2011-05-20 00:24:41 <C4away> might be necessary in a few years when the block chain is bigger
176 2011-05-20 00:24:43 <jgarzik> C4away: http://bitcoin.bluematt.me/bitcoin-nightly/blockchain-nightly/
177 2011-05-20 00:25:01 <lfm> C4away: ya you can, just copy configdir contents except wallet.dat
178 2011-05-20 00:25:05 <C4away> so, I'm not the first to think of this?
179 2011-05-20 00:25:05 <C4away> haah
180 2011-05-20 00:25:11 <C4away> haha rather
181 2011-05-20 00:25:22 <C4away> ok, cool
182 2011-05-20 00:25:24 <erbs> Pintsov and Vanstone [PV99] have designed a signature scheme with partial message recovery PVSSR,
183 2011-05-20 00:25:24 <erbs> to be implemented with elliptic curves, to produce very short signatures. These signatures are shorter than
184 2011-05-20 00:25:24 <erbs> ECDSA, DSA, and RSA based signature schemes with appendix and message recovery, with the same
185 2011-05-20 00:25:24 <erbs> level of security with respect to the best known attacks
186 2011-05-20 00:25:26 <phantomcircuit> C4away, yeah you can do that, although it's not designed for that
187 2011-05-20 00:25:33 <jgarzik> or http://yyz.us/bitcoin/block-db-94000.tar.bz2 or https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/
188 2011-05-20 00:25:34 Malamute has joined
189 2011-05-20 00:26:01 <phantomcircuit> erbs, improved signature schemes can be added to the script engine, there's roughly a dozen reserved opcodes
190 2011-05-20 00:26:23 <lfm> erba does it have history of security audits and such? cant trust it till it does
191 2011-05-20 00:26:46 <C4away> if my client received a block with a newer version header would it tell me to update?
192 2011-05-20 00:27:02 <jgarzik> C4away: no
193 2011-05-20 00:27:03 <erbs> This article proves that in certain models PVSSR is as secure as the elliptic curve discrete log problem
194 2011-05-20 00:27:03 <erbs> (ECDLP) against all potential attacks, not just the known ones.
195 2011-05-20 00:27:11 <C4away> what if I could not verify the block?
196 2011-05-20 00:27:13 <lfm> C4away: we hope so, never happened yet so who really knows?
197 2011-05-20 00:27:16 <C4away> would my client just stop being a node?
198 2011-05-20 00:27:38 <lfm> might just ignore new blocks version
199 2011-05-20 00:27:41 <jgarzik> lfm: we know how the code would behave: it would refuse to communicate
200 2011-05-20 00:27:54 <C4away> if it could validate it I would assume it would accept it
201 2011-05-20 00:28:14 <C4away> but if a block with a new hashing method or something that my node could not process came in I would not know that it is valid and would reject it right?
202 2011-05-20 00:28:28 <C4away> and then the next block would be without the previous so I would not be able to use it because I don't have the full blockchain
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205 2011-05-20 00:29:03 <lfm> C4away: kinda depends if you were still in contact with other old nodes too tho
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207 2011-05-20 00:29:41 <lfm> C4away: it might just ignore new stuff and net of old nodes continue as before doing the old thing
208 2011-05-20 00:29:50 <C4away> is the new client available? I'm trying to send my wife 0.005 from a tx with 584 confirms and it wants 0.01 to do it.... when is that going to be released with 0.0005?
209 2011-05-20 00:30:28 <C4away> lfm, in that case would both chains be valid until I upgraded my client and all of a sudden I would have to go back in time to get all the old blocks?
210 2011-05-20 00:30:31 <jgarzik> C4away: what matters is when a majority of the miners upgrade to said rules, which won't be for a little while yet.
211 2011-05-20 00:30:36 <lfm> C4away: try 0.01 instead of smaller crap
212 2011-05-20 00:30:44 <erbs> with a 256-bit key, a PV signature would be around 35 bytes
213 2011-05-20 00:30:50 <C4away> I want to send her 0.005
214 2011-05-20 00:30:59 <jgarzik> C4away: you need to pay 0.01 fee to do that
215 2011-05-20 00:31:05 <C4away> which is actually a significant amount now that it is above $6usd
216 2011-05-20 00:31:11 <lfm> C4away: dunno about hypothetical, dont much care till it is real
217 2011-05-20 00:31:15 <gwillen> how many txns are in an avg block these days
218 2011-05-20 00:31:23 <C4away> that doesn't answer my question ... is the new client available with a fee of 0.0005?
219 2011-05-20 00:31:33 <C4away> or is it just in trunk?
220 2011-05-20 00:31:47 <erbs> a 75% reduction in signature size!!
221 2011-05-20 00:31:49 <lfm> C4away: significance is subjective. you're on your own
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224 2011-05-20 00:32:07 <jgarzik> C4away: it is in release candidate 0.3.22-rc2, yes. But do you understand that no one will relay or accept such a transaction, even with the new client?
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226 2011-05-20 00:32:46 <C4away> well it is not worth it to spend 0.01 when I only have 0.02 to play with just to send a test transaction to my wife
227 2011-05-20 00:33:02 <jgarzik> C4away: then don't pay a fee at all
228 2011-05-20 00:33:17 <C4away> I can't ... i click "no" and it cancels it
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230 2011-05-20 00:33:22 <C4away> instead of sending it without the fee
231 2011-05-20 00:33:30 <jgarzik> strange
232 2011-05-20 00:33:39 <C4away> well, it doesn't show up on my sent tab
233 2011-05-20 00:33:53 <C4away> and I have 584 confirmations on the tx I'm sending from
234 2011-05-20 00:34:09 <C4away> so according to anecdotal statements I should be able to send it because it is over 120 confirms
235 2011-05-20 00:34:26 <lfm> erbs: well considering the whole block chain is currently still less that 200MB, I could care less about saving 25% of those bytes at the cost of convincing EVERYONE to upgrade software
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237 2011-05-20 00:35:01 <lfm> or even 75%
238 2011-05-20 00:35:08 <phantomcircuit> lfm, what? you wouldn't have to convince anybody to upgrade, no network protocol change would be needed
239 2011-05-20 00:35:26 <phantomcircuit> either way it's irrelevant since you wouldn't be getting any significant compression
240 2011-05-20 00:35:33 <lfm> phantomcircuit: he want to use new sinature system
241 2011-05-20 00:35:46 <lfm> sigs
242 2011-05-20 00:36:07 <phantomcircuit> lfm, oh yeah that would
243 2011-05-20 00:36:29 <erbs> interesting with this scheme, you can recover the message itself from the signature. its embedded inside the signature itself
244 2011-05-20 00:36:30 <erbs> pretty neat
245 2011-05-20 00:37:10 <erbs> lfm: if you look at the growth curve, tx size is a major issue.. there is going to be an upgrade in any case
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247 2011-05-20 00:38:11 <erbs> distributed quorums and DHTs will be needed when you have millions of transactions an hour
248 2011-05-20 00:38:38 <C4away> I seriously believe that the client requiring an update every time bitcoin value shifts to reflect the definition of a "small" transaction is a major design flaw that will impede adoption.
249 2011-05-20 00:39:23 <phantomcircuit> C4away, no kidding... fortunately plenty of other things need to be fixed to justify the changes!
250 2011-05-20 00:39:27 <C4away> each node should be able to be configured, at least to some extent, or the definition of a "small" transaction should be based on some parameter
251 2011-05-20 00:39:44 <erbs> http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/1363/Research/contributions/PVSigSec.pdf
252 2011-05-20 00:39:48 <erbs> sipa is a genius
253 2011-05-20 00:40:18 <erbs> ecdsa is pretty interesting
254 2011-05-20 00:40:34 <C4away> the exchange data is held by the various exchanges right? the transaction chain only shows BTC changing hands right?
255 2011-05-20 00:40:41 <lfm> erbs migh become "major" issue when block chain gets bigger than like maybe 1TB and wont fit on single drive then., till then worry about 10 years from now?, not me
256 2011-05-20 00:40:50 <C4away> so to keep the protocol self-referencing there is no way to adjust for exchange rate
257 2011-05-20 00:41:32 <C4away> it could be based on the average transaction value
258 2011-05-20 00:42:21 <C4away> if the average transaction is around 1 BTC it would use 0.01 as a "small", or if the average value is 0.00001 BTC then it would use 0.000001 as "small" value
259 2011-05-20 00:42:33 <C4away> something like that, but based more on reality than just random numbers I made up on the spot
260 2011-05-20 00:43:12 <C4away> base it on the last 2016 block or whatever so it is not an all-time average but a running average
261 2011-05-20 00:43:31 <erbs> i have said before that distributed quorums based on DHTs would give you very good confidence to accept instantaneous transactions (which are then solidified under the hash chain gold standard)
262 2011-05-20 00:43:48 <C4away> that is an interesting idea too
263 2011-05-20 00:46:16 <C4away> is there a bitcoin trade site like ebay?
264 2011-05-20 00:46:26 <erbs> hmmmm
265 2011-05-20 00:46:30 <jlewis> C4away: mtgox.com?
266 2011-05-20 00:46:37 skeledrew1 has joined
267 2011-05-20 00:46:38 <erbs> good idea bro
268 2011-05-20 00:46:42 <C4away> I thought that was currency exchange
269 2011-05-20 00:46:46 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
270 2011-05-20 00:46:55 <jlewis> it is, i misunderstood your question then
271 2011-05-20 00:47:05 <erbs> what better way to grow the economy than a p2p marketplace
272 2011-05-20 00:47:06 <C4away> I'm saying I haev an opteron 2210HE I don't need and I want some bitcoin to play with
273 2011-05-20 00:47:16 <erbs> ebay fir bitcoins
274 2011-05-20 00:47:19 <manveru> erbs: #bitcoin-otc
275 2011-05-20 00:47:24 <manveru> err
276 2011-05-20 00:47:27 <manveru> @ C4away
277 2011-05-20 00:47:42 <C4away> yea, I was thinking about asking in there but was looking for a bigger market
278 2011-05-20 00:47:52 orphan_node has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
279 2011-05-20 00:47:54 <erbs> well.. it would be nice to see ratings and stuff on a site
280 2011-05-20 00:47:55 <C4away> longer duration of post visibility
281 2011-05-20 00:48:01 jivvz has quit (Quit: Lämnar)
282 2011-05-20 00:48:02 <C4away> exactly, ratings
283 2011-05-20 00:48:03 <erbs> and click to buy stuff / listings / bids etc
284 2011-05-20 00:48:05 <C4away> maybe bulit-in escrow
285 2011-05-20 00:48:09 <erbs> that would be huge
286 2011-05-20 00:48:10 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
287 2011-05-20 00:48:15 GF115 has joined
288 2011-05-20 00:48:23 <C4away> so, I should start building it?
289 2011-05-20 00:48:32 <manveru> that would be kinda hard
290 2011-05-20 00:48:43 <manveru> unless you do auctions really fast
291 2011-05-20 00:48:57 <erbs> who maintains the otc ratings? can they put it on a site or rest feed maybe. instead of creating new rating systems
292 2011-05-20 00:48:58 sacarlson has joined
293 2011-05-20 00:48:58 <C4away> well, I don't really care about auctions
294 2011-05-20 00:49:00 <C4away> that may be one option
295 2011-05-20 00:49:13 <C4away> I'm just thinking more of a virtual flea market
296 2011-05-20 00:49:24 <jlewis> erbs: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratings.php
297 2011-05-20 00:49:29 <C4away> you would probably have to either peg it to USD or another currency
298 2011-05-20 00:49:32 <erbs> thx jlewis
299 2011-05-20 00:49:36 <C4away> or just accept it for what it is worth when it sells
300 2011-05-20 00:49:51 <erbs> yeah id say let it be btc only :)
301 2011-05-20 00:49:55 GF115 has quit (Client Quit)
302 2011-05-20 00:49:58 <C4away> well, peg it to the value
303 2011-05-20 00:50:03 <erbs> otherwise.. they may as well go to ebay
304 2011-05-20 00:50:04 o_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
305 2011-05-20 00:50:08 <C4away> like "I want $100 USD for this item" and it would update every 15 min
306 2011-05-20 00:50:09 <C4away> or something
307 2011-05-20 00:50:29 <C4away> but I would prefer it to be based on BTC only
308 2011-05-20 00:50:46 <erbs> oh i c wot u mean
309 2011-05-20 00:50:56 <erbs> yeah it does make sense to have the reserve quoted in usd or whatever
310 2011-05-20 00:51:09 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
311 2011-05-20 00:51:12 <C4away> ok, do you know php? want to help/
312 2011-05-20 00:51:19 GF115 has joined
313 2011-05-20 00:51:25 <C4away> j/k I have other work to do for the next 10 days
314 2011-05-20 00:51:47 C4away is now known as C4colo
315 2011-05-20 00:52:50 <erbs> i think there are some oss auction/listing sites no?
316 2011-05-20 00:53:33 <erbs> something that uses the existing WoT on a bid site would be neat
317 2011-05-20 00:53:50 <GF115> Good day, with bit coin algorithm computers produce "work" and owner of computeris paid in bit coins. Is this correct?
318 2011-05-20 00:54:21 <Namegduf> Kinda sorta
319 2011-05-20 00:54:22 <erbs> yes
320 2011-05-20 00:54:35 Schematografter has joined
321 2011-05-20 00:54:47 <EvanR> robthenob is a scammer
322 2011-05-20 00:54:54 <erbs> rly? hmm
323 2011-05-20 00:54:55 <EvanR> he stole coins from two people and i got them back
324 2011-05-20 00:55:01 <EvanR> please ban him
325 2011-05-20 00:55:05 <erbs> was it a pay-up-front thing
326 2011-05-20 00:55:08 <EvanR> he is banned from -otc already since last week
327 2011-05-20 00:55:21 <EvanR> robthenob is also known as scottlad
328 2011-05-20 00:55:21 <gjs278> I can confirm that robthenob is a scammer that should be banned from this channel and any other bitcoin related channel
329 2011-05-20 00:55:26 <EvanR> email domain soulacehosting
330 2011-05-20 00:55:36 <EvanR> hes been scamming for a week
331 2011-05-20 00:55:46 <EvanR> his original nick was skizza1
332 2011-05-20 00:56:05 <erbs> hes a masterthief
333 2011-05-20 00:56:06 <EvanR> i am collecting irc logs and organizing them for an official report
334 2011-05-20 00:56:41 <EvanR> BlueMatt: plz ban robthenob / scottlads zone
335 2011-05-20 00:57:01 <erbs> a bitcoin-only bid/auction/listing site is good because you don't have the fees of an ebay
336 2011-05-20 00:57:15 <erbs> but still the security of escrow
337 2011-05-20 00:57:34 EvanR has quit (Changing host)
338 2011-05-20 00:57:34 EvanR has joined
339 2011-05-20 00:57:54 <erbs> how is he scamming? why are ppl giving him coins
340 2011-05-20 00:58:08 <jlewis> cuz they foolish
341 2011-05-20 00:58:16 <EvanR> the logs will show
342 2011-05-20 00:58:20 GF115 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
343 2011-05-20 00:59:57 SerajewelKS has joined
344 2011-05-20 01:00:05 bill_stickers has joined
345 2011-05-20 01:00:38 rtulio has joined
346 2011-05-20 01:01:09 <erbs> all your coin are belong to me
347 2011-05-20 01:01:27 <erbs> basically never pay up front for anything... always escrow
348 2011-05-20 01:01:29 <JunK-Y> i confirm robthenob is really a scammer.
349 2011-05-20 01:01:42 <gjs278> yeah
350 2011-05-20 01:01:47 <erbs> maybe satoshis "burn the money" escrow scheme can be embedded in the transaction with a script
351 2011-05-20 01:02:22 <noagendamarket> would be better if it went to a charity
352 2011-05-20 01:02:22 <JunK-Y> we planned to do a transaction of 30 btc, since i dont want to give him all btc at the same time, we agreed i'll send 10 btc, then he will pay the rest (240$), then i'll give him the 20 remaining btc
353 2011-05-20 01:02:30 HaltingState has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
354 2011-05-20 01:02:44 <JunK-Y> then after he received the 10 btc, nothing!
355 2011-05-20 01:03:30 <gwillen> JunK-Y: did you downrate him already?
356 2011-05-20 01:03:46 <erbs> sipa is a brilliant dude.. reading his post http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=6430.0
357 2011-05-20 01:03:56 <devrandom> erbs - or even better - http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4723.0
358 2011-05-20 01:03:58 <erbs> can i install the patch without breaking anything (is it backward compat, or only for new tx?)
359 2011-05-20 01:04:22 <JunK-Y> no, because im not in the rating system yet
360 2011-05-20 01:04:25 <erbs> nice devrandom
361 2011-05-20 01:04:32 <JunK-Y> but doing few transactions here and there
362 2011-05-20 01:04:46 mmoya has joined
363 2011-05-20 01:04:49 <ne0futur> JunK-Y: better register and gpg ident
364 2011-05-20 01:05:03 <JunK-Y> i will, trust me
365 2011-05-20 01:05:12 <JunK-Y> and i will never give btc before getting money first
366 2011-05-20 01:05:25 <devrandom> erbs - will implement that in the next few weeks
367 2011-05-20 01:05:25 eoss has joined
368 2011-05-20 01:05:46 <erbs> cool bro
369 2011-05-20 01:07:04 <EvanR> gwillen: hes not registered, he is banned from otc before all this, he was scottlad. we convinced scottlad to register, he got a -50 rating or somethinh
370 2011-05-20 01:07:08 <erbs> what if i just want the sender to be able to finalize the tx (but the money still needs to be burned to give the seller protection)
371 2011-05-20 01:07:28 DGM has joined
372 2011-05-20 01:09:03 sethsethseth____ has joined
373 2011-05-20 01:09:14 <erbs> burning money would probably mean it goes to a known charity address or whatever
374 2011-05-20 01:10:20 knotwork has joined
375 2011-05-20 01:10:20 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
376 2011-05-20 01:10:20 knotwork has joined
377 2011-05-20 01:10:24 TheKid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
378 2011-05-20 01:10:29 robthenob has quit (Quit: ÂI-n-v-i-s-i-o-n 2.0 Build 3515 July'07 Release)
379 2011-05-20 01:10:30 <erbs> the money would have to go to the charity in 10 blocks automatically, unless the buyer authorizes it to go to the seller
380 2011-05-20 01:11:50 sethsethseth has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
381 2011-05-20 01:12:05 <erbs> i dont think scripts know anything about "time" or the number of block-ticks that have gone by
382 2011-05-20 01:12:56 <devrandom> erbs - if that is a question for me, I'll have to look at it later... my proposal doesn't involve burning money. It works by voting instead.
383 2011-05-20 01:13:08 <devrandom> voting happens at any time, not delay based
384 2011-05-20 01:13:14 <erbs> yeah thats the way to do it devrandom
385 2011-05-20 01:13:25 <erbs> thats fine for all transactions
386 2011-05-20 01:13:34 <erbs> im just wondering how in principle you could do a money-burning thing
387 2011-05-20 01:13:35 <devrandom> I'll be on later, ttul
388 2011-05-20 01:13:40 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
389 2011-05-20 01:13:41 <erbs> which is a more high-stakes kind of bargain
390 2011-05-20 01:13:43 mtrlt has joined
391 2011-05-20 01:14:03 sethsethseth____ has joined
392 2011-05-20 01:14:26 <erbs> but voting is perfect
393 2011-05-20 01:14:35 FX_L3V3L_FIVE has joined
394 2011-05-20 01:14:52 <erbs> better than just burning the money since trolls could just go around conning ppl into burning their coin
395 2011-05-20 01:15:14 <erbs> (or a devious charity doing "blackhat" fundraising that way haha)
396 2011-05-20 01:16:03 univers has joined
397 2011-05-20 01:16:15 winsomecowboy has quit (Quit: Page closed)
398 2011-05-20 01:16:46 rhett__ has joined
399 2011-05-20 01:17:12 <erbs> man i need to learn more about the protocol
400 2011-05-20 01:17:31 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.251.224.223|Netsniper
401 2011-05-20 01:20:57 <rhett__> is anyone interested in working on a new crypto-currency?
402 2011-05-20 01:21:18 <erbs> if its called bitcoin sure
403 2011-05-20 01:22:12 <jgarzik> heh
404 2011-05-20 01:22:29 DGM has quit (Quit: Page closed)
405 2011-05-20 01:22:35 <jgarzik> rhett__: one with a vastly weaker blockchain and little independent review?
406 2011-05-20 01:22:46 <C4colo> sounds good to me
407 2011-05-20 01:23:06 <C4colo> how many vendors accept your new currency?
408 2011-05-20 01:23:12 <C4colo> can I buy depends and ensure with it?
409 2011-05-20 01:23:18 <rhett__> i'm interested in discussing tradeoffs of other types of systems, just outlining all of the possible solutions to some of bitcoins technical shortcomings.
410 2011-05-20 01:23:18 <C4colo> because I can with BTC apparentl y
411 2011-05-20 01:23:38 Schematografter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
412 2011-05-20 01:24:14 <C4colo> In my opinion btc is pretty damn solid, and given it level of adoption it is obviously the strongest
413 2011-05-20 01:24:32 <gmaxwell> rhett__: I think you need to spend some more time understanding bitcoin before 'starting a new crypto currency'.
414 2011-05-20 01:24:34 <C4colo> opening up other markets is very risky and would take at least a year from being launched to get to the level where bitcoin is
415 2011-05-20 01:24:38 GF115 has joined
416 2011-05-20 01:24:47 pyros1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
417 2011-05-20 01:24:48 <gmaxwell> rhett__: or at least before admitting that you're starting a new one.
418 2011-05-20 01:24:56 <C4colo> bitcoin has been around long enough that people understand it and trust the protocol
419 2011-05-20 01:25:01 <Mookman288> Woah. I loaded up TF2 and my VM running minerd decided to take control of more CPU power than it's allotted
420 2011-05-20 01:25:05 <Mookman288> my MHash also doubled.
421 2011-05-20 01:25:12 <rhett__> yeah, i'm not saying a new one needs to be started
422 2011-05-20 01:25:21 <rhett__> but there are features that could be added that don't exist now
423 2011-05-20 01:25:33 <C4colo> what do you see needs to be added?
424 2011-05-20 01:25:36 <C4colo> that can't be
425 2011-05-20 01:25:53 <C4colo> the other aspect is the huge amount of programming you would need to do to get to where btc is now
426 2011-05-20 01:25:59 * gmaxwell send rhett__ a copy of diffutils
427 2011-05-20 01:26:06 <C4colo> there are tons of features that "could" be implemented that just need resources
428 2011-05-20 01:26:24 <rhett__> how many kloc is btc?
429 2011-05-20 01:26:26 <C4colo> diverting development resources from BTC just means it will be longer to implement those features
430 2011-05-20 01:26:28 <gmaxwell> rhett__: there is also a _ton_ which couldâ shouldâ be done in bitcoin with no protocol impact.
431 2011-05-20 01:26:42 <GF115> hello. I was interested in the bitcoin concept, what are some of the benefits as actual consumers or producer of tangible products in this monetary concept?
432 2011-05-20 01:27:10 <gmaxwell> GF115: you might be better off asking in #bitcoin
433 2011-05-20 01:27:34 <rhett__> Honestly, i think that there is big incentive for a pool with 10% cpu to try to anonymize and reverse all of their transactions
434 2011-05-20 01:27:35 <erbs> GF115, pseudo-anonymity, double-spend prevention, decentralized protocol
435 2011-05-20 01:27:39 <GF115> how do i get to that irc page? thank you...
436 2011-05-20 01:27:48 prax_ has joined
437 2011-05-20 01:28:22 <GF115> the removal of the middle man.... how long has this been in practice...?
438 2011-05-20 01:28:24 <erbs> hmm well you cant reverse a tx
439 2011-05-20 01:28:47 <rhett__> I'm curious if there is a way to make a p2p bitcoin "bank"
440 2011-05-20 01:29:01 <erbs> unless you mean let the chain grow but secretly have a longer chain to replace it once the acknowledgement is received
441 2011-05-20 01:29:09 <gmaxwell> rhett__: it's not event clear to me what you're talking about.
442 2011-05-20 01:29:25 <C4colo> rhett__, yes
443 2011-05-20 01:29:33 <rhett__> so, it's decentralized, run by all the nodes collectively, but I can put money into it, and the nodes decide if I get money back
444 2011-05-20 01:29:38 <GF115> would there be a benefit to someone, or a group with a large quanity of computers in one location functioning through one server to create a bitcoin account or perhaps set up a mining group using those?
445 2011-05-20 01:29:41 <gmaxwell> rhett__: I thought we pointed out to you already that mining a single block doesn't reverse the transactions.
446 2011-05-20 01:29:49 pyros1 has joined
447 2011-05-20 01:29:50 pyros1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
448 2011-05-20 01:30:01 <gmaxwell> rhett__: BC scripts potentially allow several kind of escrow.
449 2011-05-20 01:30:05 <GF115> ty qmaxwell and erbs...
450 2011-05-20 01:30:36 <erbs> yeah a bitcoin bank could start lending money
451 2011-05-20 01:30:51 prax has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
452 2011-05-20 01:30:51 <erbs> but im guessing few "borrowers" will end up re-paying
453 2011-05-20 01:30:58 <erbs> since theres no enforcement mechanism
454 2011-05-20 01:31:03 <rhett__> yes, gmaxwell the solutions either "wait an hour for better verification" which is not really possible if I want to buy digital goods like an mp3 with bitcoin to download, or "we know who you are, we'll catch you, that's stealing", which also makes no sense given that I can make an anonymous id
455 2011-05-20 01:31:13 <GF115> is the list on the page I cam from a complete list of bitcoin accepting/ using businesses?
456 2011-05-20 01:31:50 <gmaxwell> rhett__: you're woried about someone with a hundred grand in computing hardware using it to steal mp3s very publicly?
457 2011-05-20 01:32:06 <rhett__> gmaxwell, assume there is a rouge pool
458 2011-05-20 01:32:18 <rhett__> it's simple to download the rouge client and join the pool
459 2011-05-20 01:32:23 <gmaxwell> Assume I am a spherical cow.
460 2011-05-20 01:32:26 <rhett__> now all of your transactions try to get reversed fo ryou
461 2011-05-20 01:32:36 pyros1 has joined
462 2011-05-20 01:32:43 <rhett__> ok, fine, no point in arguing that one
463 2011-05-20 01:32:50 jmorton has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
464 2011-05-20 01:32:57 <C4colo> rhett__, one way to solve that is for the sites to require you to hold a balance with them that is more than 10 minutes old, or with a 3rd party which provides a simple API for deducting the balance and then sending bitcoins later
465 2011-05-20 01:32:59 <erbs> you have a good point rhett__
466 2011-05-20 01:33:04 <gmaxwell> rhett__: what you're describing isn't theft, it's a DOS attack.
467 2011-05-20 01:33:23 Jere_Jones has joined
468 2011-05-20 01:33:38 <C4colo> so you have your bitpal account and pay with that
469 2011-05-20 01:33:58 <C4colo> and bitpal sends the money in chunks of 50 BTC or something
470 2011-05-20 01:34:02 <rhett__> ok, so now every trusts a 3rd party
471 2011-05-20 01:34:05 <C4colo> no
472 2011-05-20 01:34:10 <C4colo> you can for convenience
473 2011-05-20 01:34:11 <gmaxwell> rhett__: because after the first couple incidence people would just be forced to wait more blocks. Morover miners could detect these reversal blocks and simply refuse to extend them, which would be a longer term fix.
474 2011-05-20 01:34:21 <C4colo> "everybody" dosn't trust paypal, visa, amex, etc
475 2011-05-20 01:34:24 <C4colo> they are just companies
476 2011-05-20 01:34:32 <gmaxwell> s/incidence/incidents/
477 2011-05-20 01:34:33 <C4colo> if you want to buy something instantly you pay with a 3rd party in USD
478 2011-05-20 01:34:40 <C4colo> or you mail a money order
479 2011-05-20 01:34:49 <C4colo> which takes time and you don't get to buy your mp3s instantly
480 2011-05-20 01:34:54 jmorton has joined
481 2011-05-20 01:34:55 <C4colo> btc is faster than a money order or cash through the mail
482 2011-05-20 01:35:01 <rhett__> OK, but if a system didn't require all of these things, wouldn't it be better?
483 2011-05-20 01:35:13 <C4colo> so you are idealizing the concepts
484 2011-05-20 01:35:14 <C4colo> well, no
485 2011-05-20 01:35:19 <rhett__> ok, well i guess you guys win
486 2011-05-20 01:35:23 <C4colo> because if you do that then you have to allow bidirectional money transfers
487 2011-05-20 01:35:24 bill_stickers has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
488 2011-05-20 01:35:31 <erbs> well theres nothing preventing the scenario you mentioned rhett__
489 2011-05-20 01:35:32 <rhett__> i already gave up arguing that
490 2011-05-20 01:35:35 <C4colo> with BTC I authorize EVERY transfer of money
491 2011-05-20 01:35:36 <rhett__> you guys are right
492 2011-05-20 01:35:39 <C4colo> ok
493 2011-05-20 01:35:40 <C4colo> np
494 2011-05-20 01:35:40 <rhett__> bitcoin is perfect
495 2011-05-20 01:35:44 <C4colo> that is not true
496 2011-05-20 01:35:45 <erbs> a rogue pool could startup that reversed transactions from pool members to non-pool members..
497 2011-05-20 01:35:50 <erbs> there is no way to prevent it
498 2011-05-20 01:35:58 <C4colo> it is just unlikely
499 2011-05-20 01:36:09 hyperjacker has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
500 2011-05-20 01:36:11 <gmaxwell> rhett__: Propose something that doesn't have these flaws, and doesn't gain a bunch of others in exchange. Write a paperâ don't waste your time gabbing on IRC.
501 2011-05-20 01:36:16 <erbs> the profit would be minimal (unless the pool had a significant % of the hash power)
502 2011-05-20 01:36:36 <gmaxwell> rhett__: in the meantime, if thats too much for you, add some hashchain/network health measurements to the clients.
503 2011-05-20 01:36:47 <C4colo> THAT is a good idea
504 2011-05-20 01:36:52 <gmaxwell> 18:29 < erbs> there is no way to prevent it
505 2011-05-20 01:36:59 <gmaxwell> gah, that isn't true.
506 2011-05-20 01:37:04 <C4colo> if you haven't seen enough nodes yet, or something like that
507 2011-05-20 01:37:43 <ne0futur> rhett__: i agree wirute a paper !
508 2011-05-20 01:37:50 <rhett__> i don't have the answers
509 2011-05-20 01:37:50 <ne0futur> and on a website with rss feeds
510 2011-05-20 01:37:51 <gmaxwell> you have to outpace the network, which you can't do for any non-trivial duration unless you have a lot of hashpower.
511 2011-05-20 01:37:56 <ne0futur> if you need one just query me
512 2011-05-20 01:38:03 FX_L3V3L_FIVE has left ()
513 2011-05-20 01:38:07 <gmaxwell> and yes, if the users of BC conspired to destroy it.. they could.
514 2011-05-20 01:38:14 <ne0futur> the questions are often more valuable than the answeras
515 2011-05-20 01:38:24 <rhett__> but yes, I would love to talk more about ideas with other people more familiar with the cryptograhy techniques
516 2011-05-20 01:38:37 <rhett__> I love how bitcoin combined so many techniques to build something amazing
517 2011-05-20 01:38:52 <erbs> gmaxwell: it doesnt have to work every time, you could just reverse the tx any time you lucked upon a new block.. which only requires modest hash power
518 2011-05-20 01:39:06 <C4colo> that is the beauty of bitcoin.... it is run on consensus basis
519 2011-05-20 01:39:12 <ne0futur> and id like me you like irc more than writing papers, jois ##security
520 2011-05-20 01:39:13 <C4colo> if you had more control you would have a controlling party
521 2011-05-20 01:39:27 <rhett__> i'm just trying to think of a scenario where I can put money into a p2p bank, and the bank votes if i can get it out.
522 2011-05-20 01:39:30 <gmaxwell> erbs: you can't reverse a TX until it's already happened, which means you're already late to the party and your block almost certantly will not become part of the longest chain.
523 2011-05-20 01:39:52 <C4colo> wait what?
524 2011-05-20 01:40:00 <gmaxwell> rhett__: attach lots of keys to at BC transaction. N of M must be provided to release. Done.
525 2011-05-20 01:40:01 <C4colo> you want someone else to dictate whether you have access to your own money?
526 2011-05-20 01:40:13 <erbs> gmaxwell: you are right that you need to find 2 blocks before the rest of the network finds one. but that happens often enough if you have significant (but nowhere near majority hashpower)
527 2011-05-20 01:40:50 <erbs> it would be worth it if the tx's youre reversing are large
528 2011-05-20 01:40:54 <rhett__> gmaxwell, say you have 200 nodes, how do you say that at least 20 nodes must agree to release the transaction?
529 2011-05-20 01:41:14 <gmaxwell> erbs: if they are large then best practice would have been to wait more than one block past for maturity.
530 2011-05-20 01:41:16 <C4colo> with scripting can you require a specific number of confirmations?
531 2011-05-20 01:41:27 <rhett__> you don't know which 20 will provide the private key to release it gmaxwell
532 2011-05-20 01:41:30 <erbs> true gmaxwell
533 2011-05-20 01:42:04 <gmaxwell> rhett__: yes, scripts should be able to do the N of M pattern.
534 2011-05-20 01:42:19 <erbs> still tho, any admin could go rogue and make his pool into an evil reversal bot
535 2011-05-20 01:42:36 <C4colo> erbs, is that actually technically true?
536 2011-05-20 01:42:40 <gmaxwell> rhett__: there is also secret splitting using error correcting codes, but I don't know how you could do that without a trusted party to do the split.
537 2011-05-20 01:42:44 <C4colo> the pool owner has control over all the nodes?
538 2011-05-20 01:43:02 <rhett__> gmaxwell, what scripts?
539 2011-05-20 01:43:05 <gmaxwell> erbs: yes, thats one reason why big pools are bad, not just at the 50% level.
540 2011-05-20 01:43:07 <erbs> yeah he distributes the hash input text
541 2011-05-20 01:43:13 <gmaxwell> rhett__: this is what I meant by learning more. ;)
542 2011-05-20 01:43:16 <C4colo> search "script" on the wiki
543 2011-05-20 01:43:26 <gmaxwell> rhett__: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
544 2011-05-20 01:43:30 <C4colo> and if you understand it I will be impressed
545 2011-05-20 01:43:45 <gmaxwell> C4colo: the miners have no clue what they're hashing.
546 2011-05-20 01:43:47 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
547 2011-05-20 01:44:04 <C4colo> well, they don't need to really
548 2011-05-20 01:44:11 <C4colo> it's just free money right?
549 2011-05-20 01:44:14 <C4colo> hahah
550 2011-05-20 01:44:22 <gmaxwell> A pool can do nasty crap like have his miners mine another pool and filter out the valid solutions, in order to make the other pool have a low hitrate and look like a fraud.
551 2011-05-20 01:44:39 <C4colo> oh
552 2011-05-20 01:44:46 <erbs> gmaxwell: the miners can do things now like require fees on all tx. they are like a mini-govt that can essentially rewrite the protocol if they want by refusing non-confirming tx'es
553 2011-05-20 01:44:53 <erbs> non-confirming
554 2011-05-20 01:45:01 <gmaxwell> erbs: oh you saw my forum post on that?
555 2011-05-20 01:45:02 <erbs> conforming sticky key
556 2011-05-20 01:45:05 <C4colo> my question is if they can provide false headers to the workers
557 2011-05-20 01:45:20 <gmaxwell> subject line was something about immunity to miner strikes.
558 2011-05-20 01:45:27 <erbs> gmaxwell: ahh interesting!
559 2011-05-20 01:45:35 <erbs> gmaxwell: ill find it
560 2011-05-20 01:46:01 <gmaxwell> I didn't ppresent any solutions, only that a union of ethical miners could afford to enter an arms race with the bad ones...
561 2011-05-20 01:46:01 <C4colo> so the workers are actually working on older blocks with an incorrect transaction chain
562 2011-05-20 01:46:14 <gmaxwell> C4colo: they can't tell.
563 2011-05-20 01:46:15 <rhett__> holycow gmaxwell bitcoin allows these gate patter scripts???
564 2011-05-20 01:46:20 <gmaxwell> they're just hasing the 80byte header.
565 2011-05-20 01:46:26 <gmaxwell> They can't see the tx inside it.
566 2011-05-20 01:46:30 <rhett__> flow control and anything?
567 2011-05-20 01:46:34 <C4colo> gmaxwell, could the client be set up to listen on the pool and also in the public internet?
568 2011-05-20 01:46:40 <lfm> C4colo: he could but it would not profit him
569 2011-05-20 01:46:46 <erbs> the miners could decide they want 50% fees.. now you have no way to use your bitcoins without giving into their demands because all clients look at the longest chain only!
570 2011-05-20 01:47:02 <gmaxwell> rhett__: it's kinda limited... and chunks are currently disabled by default, but you can mine your own blocks with them.
571 2011-05-20 01:47:02 <rhett__> gmaxwell, this is so much more than was in the whitepaper
572 2011-05-20 01:47:07 <rhett__> when did these scripts get added?
573 2011-05-20 01:47:16 <gmaxwell> rhett__: yes bitcoin is much more than the whitepaper.
574 2011-05-20 01:47:40 <gmaxwell> Really the whitepaper only describes the underlying transaction log primitive.
575 2011-05-20 01:47:53 <rhett__> yes, this is amazing
576 2011-05-20 01:48:00 <rhett__> most clients are using this now?
577 2011-05-20 01:48:01 <gmaxwell> erbs: http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=7361.0
578 2011-05-20 01:48:29 <gmaxwell> rhett__: there is a 'default script' that describes the normal transactions. No one is doing much of anything else AFAIK.
579 2011-05-20 01:48:44 <erbs> gmaxwell: indeed nice post
580 2011-05-20 01:49:11 TheKid has joined
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582 2011-05-20 01:49:13 TheKid has joined
583 2011-05-20 01:49:44 <pyros1> Just curious is there a better way of keeping my GPU temp at 67 other than downclocking? since if I keep it at original speeds it hits of 85C now...
584 2011-05-20 01:50:03 <rhett__> gmaxwell, should I look at the c++ source, or the google java client source?
585 2011-05-20 01:50:21 <C4colo> pyros1, water cooling?
586 2011-05-20 01:50:23 <rhett__> the documentation is nicer on the google java client so far it seems
587 2011-05-20 01:50:31 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
588 2011-05-20 01:50:32 DukeOfURL has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
589 2011-05-20 01:50:44 <lfm> pyros1: max out fan at 100% and add more case fans
590 2011-05-20 01:50:53 <pyros1> i have max fans already
591 2011-05-20 01:50:59 <pyros1> umm water cooling isn't a viabl option atm
592 2011-05-20 01:51:06 Schematografter has joined
593 2011-05-20 01:51:06 Moonies has joined
594 2011-05-20 01:51:06 <gmaxwell> rhett__: c++ source is okay, so long as you don't mind wading past a lot of poorly seperated gui code.
595 2011-05-20 01:51:18 <gmaxwell> rhett__: or at least, I hate c++ and yet I've found it readable enough.
596 2011-05-20 01:51:20 GF115 has left ()
597 2011-05-20 01:51:35 <rhett__> what editor do you use?
598 2011-05-20 01:51:38 <gmaxwell> The non-UI parts are mostly in a C style without overuse of C++ features that I've noticed.
599 2011-05-20 01:51:49 <Optimo> thank goodness
600 2011-05-20 01:51:52 <C4colo> you can try to find some slot coolers to put above and below it to help vent
601 2011-05-20 01:51:57 <C4colo> increase throughput of air in your case
602 2011-05-20 01:52:05 <C4colo> turn you PSU fan to high if temp controlled
603 2011-05-20 01:52:15 <C4colo> open the side of the case and blow a box-fan at it
604 2011-05-20 01:52:23 <C4colo> (or just replace the side of your case with a box fan
605 2011-05-20 01:52:24 <C4colo> )
606 2011-05-20 01:52:41 <lfm> buy hi cfm fans for case (they may be noisier)
607 2011-05-20 01:52:54 <erbs> gmaxwell: even at a 99% fee, users would still have to pay ... 1% is better than 0 :)
608 2011-05-20 01:53:08 luke-jr has joined
609 2011-05-20 01:53:18 <lfm> better? not better for user
610 2011-05-20 01:53:22 <erbs> tacit collusion is a quantifiable phenomenon.. big miners will naturally raise their prices
611 2011-05-20 01:53:50 MrHako has joined
612 2011-05-20 01:53:52 <lfm> and you cant stop miner from letting thru free txn
613 2011-05-20 01:54:08 <lfm> if he wants to
614 2011-05-20 01:54:23 <erbs> why would a miner allow free txn when he can charge... ppl eventually have to spend their bitcoin regardless of the fee (or settle for 0)
615 2011-05-20 01:54:44 <lfm> forget logic, he can if he wants
616 2011-05-20 01:54:48 rmoriz has joined
617 2011-05-20 01:55:02 <bd_> erbs: It's in the miner's interest to build confidence in the market. Fast txn confirmations do this. Eventually when the market's well-established, txn fees can start to become mandatory
618 2011-05-20 01:55:02 <rmoriz> hi.
619 2011-05-20 01:55:11 <erbs> but we see that miners want to nudge the "minimum standard fee" up so they increase fee
620 2011-05-20 01:55:35 <erbs> bd_: that is true.. until they decide to milk the confidence that was built up
621 2011-05-20 01:55:44 <lfm> some miners want more fees, some miners want more people using bitcoin and look to future
622 2011-05-20 01:56:04 Moonies has quit (Quit: quack)
623 2011-05-20 01:56:57 <erbs> a model that takes into account miners' desire to set the standard fee, and ppls desire to get quick tx.. would predict fees creeping up as the volume does
624 2011-05-20 01:57:33 <C4colo> the miners will have to deal with what the users are willing to pay actually. There will be an equilibrium established between what people are willing to pay versus how long they are willing to wait for their transaction to be processed.
625 2011-05-20 01:58:28 <C4colo> no matter how low the tx fee gets there will be people willing to process them
626 2011-05-20 01:59:22 <jgarzik> C4colo: yep
627 2011-05-20 01:59:38 <rmoriz> bitcoind's usability is seriously broken :(
628 2011-05-20 01:59:49 <jgarzik> C4colo: miners benefit from having someone around who values their product (bitcoins)
629 2011-05-20 01:59:53 <erbs> how long will ppl be willing to wait?
630 2011-05-20 02:00:00 <C4colo> exactly
631 2011-05-20 02:00:01 <jgarzik> rmoriz: ?
632 2011-05-20 02:00:04 <luke-jr> rmoriz: yes, it is. help fix it?
633 2011-05-20 02:00:32 <erbs> jgarzik: the thing is, ppl have to use the product once they acquire it (not spending it ever would mean you settle for nothing)
634 2011-05-20 02:00:33 <luke-jr> rmoriz: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
635 2011-05-20 02:00:51 <erbs> so buying into bitcoin means accepting whatever terms the miners want
636 2011-05-20 02:01:00 <erbs> or waiting interminably long delays
637 2011-05-20 02:01:19 <rmoriz> I've a headless bitcoind running with ./bitcoind -gen -daemon but when i try to connect with "./bitcoind getaccountaddress" I'm only getting 'error: no response from server'.
638 2011-05-20 02:01:31 <jgarzik> erbs: not really. there can always be another block chain
639 2011-05-20 02:01:34 <luke-jr> rmoriz: well, that's just you being impatient
640 2011-05-20 02:01:55 <jgarzik> so users and miners must cooperate, or there will be mass abandonment for a block chain with better policies
641 2011-05-20 02:01:58 <luke-jr> rmoriz: also, do -gen=0
642 2011-05-20 02:02:04 <rmoriz> why -gen=0?
643 2011-05-20 02:02:13 <luke-jr> that turns off the builtin miner crap
644 2011-05-20 02:02:29 <rmoriz> how is that related?
645 2011-05-20 02:02:43 <luke-jr> it might not be, but definitely worthless and wastes electricity
646 2011-05-20 02:02:59 <erbs> then you get into retaliatory mining... if a cool miner is detecting accepting low-fee tx, the other miners blacklist any users that receive money from those tx and reject them on the next chains.. permanently slowing them down
647 2011-05-20 02:03:30 <erbs> so no one will want to touch a coin that was transacted for a low fee (because miners retaliate against them)
648 2011-05-20 02:04:07 <erbs> it turns into a population of permanently slow coins (punishment to deter others from mining free tx)
649 2011-05-20 02:04:55 <C4colo> but what happens when there are so many coins they are blacklisting THEY can't even use bitcoin?
650 2011-05-20 02:05:07 <C4colo> and what if they run everyone off from the system
651 2011-05-20 02:05:16 <C4colo> bitcoins would drop in value and the market would shift
652 2011-05-20 02:05:19 <C4colo> some miners would bail
653 2011-05-20 02:05:24 <rmoriz> luke-jr: do you have any reasonable comments on my problem?
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655 2011-05-20 02:05:43 <Dek> gen=0 was reasonable
656 2011-05-20 02:05:47 <erbs> most users will grudgingly go along with the fee hikes and not try to buck the system, after all they accept astronomical gas prices / food prices / mortgage rates with nothing more than a sigh rather than open revolt
657 2011-05-20 02:06:14 <rmoriz> Dek: wasting elctricity is not my problem
658 2011-05-20 02:06:16 ahbritto has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
659 2011-05-20 02:06:23 <erbs> the sheeple will trudge on under the draconian fees and try to cheer each other up with miley cyrus ringtones
660 2011-05-20 02:06:31 <Dek> yeah true but it was something you were doing wrong so good to know for you
661 2011-05-20 02:06:35 <Dek> erbs: doubt it would happen all it would take is 1 person to open a miner with a lower tx fee (not even 0 they still profit) and accept those slowed tx and put them in block chain -- miners would be too greedy to let them get all the blocks
662 2011-05-20 02:07:57 <luke-jr> rmoriz: most users don't do stupid things. if you're having trouble, the first step is to stop doing stupid things, so your use case is comparable to everyone else.
663 2011-05-20 02:07:58 <C4colo> also, for chains that are longer they will override shorter solutions
664 2011-05-20 02:08:03 <C4colo> so those tx will eventually find a block
665 2011-05-20 02:08:13 <C4colo> and when they do, it will be longer than the blockchain of the mean miners
666 2011-05-20 02:08:16 <erbs> Dek: exactly.. so those slowed down coins will still be slow forever (by definition a minority of miners only create blocks slowly)
667 2011-05-20 02:08:17 <rmoriz> Dek: i don't think so. a reasonable comment would have been: bitcoind is a piece of shit, even the very shot wiki pages are full of failiure and nobody cares.
668 2011-05-20 02:08:43 <jgarzik> heh
669 2011-05-20 02:08:55 <rmoriz> also, why not develop such things in a test driven way. everyone does TDD nowdays.
670 2011-05-20 02:08:58 <luke-jr> rmoriz: ok, now you're just trolling
671 2011-05-20 02:09:07 <erbs> a miner who wanted to buck the prevailing fees and accept cheap tx would be a small minority (so coins rooted in low-fee transactions are still in the "slow bucket")
672 2011-05-20 02:09:19 <gmaxwell> erbs: I think I pointed out in my post, the solution is to add more hash power (by a union of good miners) until you reach an equlibrium where all the block reward is being spent on mining hardware.
673 2011-05-20 02:09:21 <rmoriz> i can't find a single test on the github repo :/
674 2011-05-20 02:09:32 <gmaxwell> At that point taking more TX, even lower fee ones, makes sense.
675 2011-05-20 02:09:51 <jgarzik> rmoriz: the git repo does include many contributions from others!
676 2011-05-20 02:10:00 <jgarzik> rmoriz: you could be the first to contribute some tests
677 2011-05-20 02:10:13 <erbs> gmaxwell: miners who mine out of the goodness of their heart (and not to exploit the fee system) are by definition a minority (under game theoretic assumptions - we assume everyone is out to maximize their gain)
678 2011-05-20 02:10:38 <jgarzik> miners may mine for reasons other than purely bitcoin output, i.e. a payment processor wants a strong network
679 2011-05-20 02:10:43 <erbs> so sure, a few good miners will be around to process slow coins indefinitely, but no one will go near those coins because they dont want illiquid assets
680 2011-05-20 02:10:50 <gmaxwell> erbs: not so, destroying bitcoin is economically bad for people who already have a lot of it.
681 2011-05-20 02:11:06 <gmaxwell> and as jgarzik points out, people actually using bitcoin.
682 2011-05-20 02:11:06 <erbs> gmaxwell: its not destroying it, its exploiting the maximal amt of fees from it
683 2011-05-20 02:11:21 <gmaxwell> erbs: which greatly reduces its attractiveness vs other stuff.
684 2011-05-20 02:11:21 <erbs> ppl still have to use their bitcoins regardless of the fees
685 2011-05-20 02:11:36 <EvanR> BlueMatt: should probably ban something similar to ~rob@93-97-219-239.zone5.bethere.co.uk
686 2011-05-20 02:11:48 mesees has joined
687 2011-05-20 02:11:59 <gmaxwell> I think we can safely say that there will always be compeating currencies. miners with high tx fees will push people into them.
688 2011-05-20 02:11:59 <erbs> id say the model would predict fees increase in proportion to volumes
689 2011-05-20 02:12:01 <rmoriz> jgarzik: are there any specs? maybe it's correct that bitcoind just throws this error despite straces shows a connect and a response?
690 2011-05-20 02:12:22 <rmoriz> jgarzik: how should i write tests if I cant be sure that this is an intented behaviour?
691 2011-05-20 02:12:38 <erbs> minetime
692 2011-05-20 02:12:53 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
693 2011-05-20 02:13:09 <jgarzik> rmoriz: that's why it's open source. everything you need to discover the answer is right there, or in the forums, or in the wiki.
694 2011-05-20 02:13:11 <gmaxwell> erbs: and I'm not suggesting that they'd operate at a loss, I'm suggesting that the 50BTC buys a lot of hardware they can use to compete. Eventually they are spending all of that on hardware, and then they'll need to accept more tx to get more tx income.
695 2011-05-20 02:13:12 <erbs> gmaxwell: a currency without fees.. otherwise it will follow the same curve -> build confidence // exploit fees // cash out
696 2011-05-20 02:13:29 <Optimo> anonymous launderers 'inside' the majority pools could do backend deals for btc ;p
697 2011-05-20 02:13:42 Alexees has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
698 2011-05-20 02:13:49 <gmaxwell> erbs: like the dollar bill?
699 2011-05-20 02:13:50 <jgarzik> rmoriz: you can also try the spaghetti / strawman approach. just write a patch, and let people outline in detail how it is wrong or right :)
700 2011-05-20 02:15:00 Alexees has joined
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702 2011-05-20 02:15:19 <erbs> gmaxwell: the equillibrium would favor high fees.. (the same way it is in credit card processing, where you are a slave to whatever the network owner decides is the fee)
703 2011-05-20 02:15:20 annieL has quit (Quit: Copywight 2007 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.)
704 2011-05-20 02:15:47 <rmoriz> this is 1990 style opensource
705 2011-05-20 02:16:00 <rmoriz> check how the perl/python/ruby/node.js people handle it
706 2011-05-20 02:16:27 <rmoriz> there's no excuse for missing test anymore.
707 2011-05-20 02:16:28 Netsniper has joined
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709 2011-05-20 02:16:47 <gmaxwell> erbs: not so, once the bonus is gone the users simply have to refuse to pay high fees
710 2011-05-20 02:16:59 <gmaxwell> erbs: and then the pool which takes the most TX can afford the most hash power.
711 2011-05-20 02:17:44 <gmaxwell> (by gone I mean actually gone, or being 100% spent on mining costs already)
712 2011-05-20 02:17:46 <erbs> but they have no incentive to engage in a downward price war
713 2011-05-20 02:18:01 <erbs> the same reason visa/mc/discover dont lower their fees to a marginal amount above 0
714 2011-05-20 02:18:08 <gmaxwell> erbs: the miners who want bitcoin healthy for commercial, social, politicial reasons do.
715 2011-05-20 02:18:38 OxFFFEuck has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
716 2011-05-20 02:18:49 <erbs> they have more to gain by tacit collusion and keeping fees up - any industry thats controlled by an oligolpoly (opec, credit cards, movies, health insurance) are going to more or less agree on high prices that steadily increase, rather than competing on the lowest price
717 2011-05-20 02:18:59 <gmaxwell> The system itself will curently pay a compeating union to enter the market, and will do so as long as there is a reward.
718 2011-05-20 02:19:27 <barf> erbs: most any market will function in that way if unregulated
719 2011-05-20 02:19:27 <erbs> the barrier to entry is huge... starting a significant pool requires up front costs that aren't paid back for a long time
720 2011-05-20 02:19:30 <gmaxwell> There is very little to exclude people from mining, except buying hashing power, which the system will currently fund provided good purchasing power.
721 2011-05-20 02:20:05 <erbs> oligopolies result in tacit collusion (it doesn't have to be coordinated. the models predict they follow a "price leader". when one seller raises his price, the others follow in lockstep)
722 2011-05-20 02:20:41 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: we're deep in speculation, and you're mostly making the argument I made weeks ago.
723 2011-05-20 02:20:44 <erbs> mining is an ologopoly because they consolidate power into pools and dedicated data centers
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726 2011-05-20 02:20:48 Xunie has joined
727 2011-05-20 02:20:58 <gmaxwell> We don't know the the system would ever enter that state.
728 2011-05-20 02:21:21 <erbs> were in it now
729 2011-05-20 02:21:33 <erbs> <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: we're deep in speculation <-- yes
730 2011-05-20 02:22:01 vorlov has joined
731 2011-05-20 02:22:07 <gmaxwell> Moreover, the more likely outcome is that TX fees won't actually fund keeping the difficulty high, so we'll have to figure out something else for that which will change all these dynamics completely.
732 2011-05-20 02:22:22 <erbs> mining looks more like opec and insurance companies than it does say, street vendors at a bazaar engaging in pure competition
733 2011-05-20 02:22:36 jhulten has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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735 2011-05-20 02:23:10 <erbs> gmaxwell: the need to buy more hw is actually going to incentivize them to raise fees quicker (rather than lower them in hopes of gaining market share (but then someone else just goes lower) - price wars arent profitable and rarely happen)
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737 2011-05-20 02:23:59 <gmaxwell> the problem will be that to actually achieve a high hash rate may well require really opressive fees.
738 2011-05-20 02:24:09 rmoriz has quit (Quit: if it doesn't have tests, consider it broken.)
739 2011-05-20 02:24:16 <ArtForzZz> that argument has one *tiny* flaw
740 2011-05-20 02:24:29 <erbs> ppl will stop mining if its not profitable.. so difficulty will go down
741 2011-05-20 02:24:45 <gmaxwell> erbs: if the required rate isn't high the barrier to entry is low.
742 2011-05-20 02:24:54 <ArtForzZz> increasing fees while a majority charges lower fees *lowers* profits
743 2011-05-20 02:25:29 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: well it doesn't matter while there is a 50 or a 25 btc reward. The loss is going to be small relative to that.
744 2011-05-20 02:25:42 <ArtForzZz> that still doesnt change the fact
745 2011-05-20 02:25:59 <erbs> "An oligopoly where each firm acts independently tends toward equilibrium at the ideal, but such covert cooperation as price leadership tends toward higher profitability for all, though it is an unstable arrangement. In barometric firm price leadership, the most reliable firm emerges as the best barometer of market conditions"
746 2011-05-20 02:26:08 <ArtForzZz> nice copypasta
747 2011-05-20 02:26:15 <gmaxwell> I agree, and said this above. At least at the case where the reward is limited, the parties with lower fees can afford more hashing power.
748 2011-05-20 02:26:21 <ArtForzZz> yep
749 2011-05-20 02:26:29 <erbs> if theres pure competition then prices are just above costs.. in an oligopoly, prices increase steadily by everyone following a price leader
750 2011-05-20 02:26:34 <erbs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion
751 2011-05-20 02:26:47 <ArtForzZz> erbs: yes, nice copypasta
752 2011-05-20 02:26:59 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: one problem is that if the cost of entry is $$$$ at that point, the only standard parties may just cooperate like erbs suggests.
753 2011-05-20 02:27:10 <gmaxwell> s/standard/standing/
754 2011-05-20 02:27:16 <gmaxwell> (damn autopilot)
755 2011-05-20 02:27:19 <ArtForzZz> yes, but thats not a oligopoly, thats active collusion
756 2011-05-20 02:27:24 <erbs> so.. the level of competition determines whether its an oligopoly or pure competition where prices are as low as possible
757 2011-05-20 02:27:39 <erbs> price leadership doesn't require coordination - one miner raises his price, the other big ones follow suit
758 2011-05-20 02:27:46 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: passive collusion is a stable outcome too.
759 2011-05-20 02:27:47 <erbs> now all their profits increase
760 2011-05-20 02:27:58 <ArtForzZz> erbs: except why would other miners follow suit? it would *lower* their short term profits
761 2011-05-20 02:28:05 <ArtForzZz> lower profit = baaad
762 2011-05-20 02:28:15 <gmaxwell> Because people can thinking for longer terms than a quarter... sometimes.
763 2011-05-20 02:28:36 <gmaxwell> also if there are few miners.. e.g. if there were only two, the transition would be a no brainer.
764 2011-05-20 02:28:50 <erbs> ArtForzZz: users would have to pony up more fees pretty quickly to sustain their expected tx speeds.. so they kind of have no choice but to pay higher fees (or mess up their business)
765 2011-05-20 02:28:58 <ArtForzZz> yep, while the other guy raises his fees, keep your min fee low
766 2011-05-20 02:29:14 <ArtForzZz> you collect more fees and can expand quicker. guess who wins.
767 2011-05-20 02:29:25 <erbs> but you dont
768 2011-05-20 02:29:25 <Dek> exactly
769 2011-05-20 02:29:25 <gmaxwell> you'll get a chunk of the high fees _and_ you'll get the low fees too.
770 2011-05-20 02:29:33 <erbs> because another miner simply goes *lower* than your new lower fee
771 2011-05-20 02:29:43 <erbs> its a price war to the bottom, and oligopolies know that results in 0 profit
772 2011-05-20 02:30:06 <gmaxwell> moreover, you get groups who realize starving the other guy is good for them to feed you a private feed of their TXNs, so only you can mine their blocks.
773 2011-05-20 02:30:41 <gmaxwell> erbs: thats the comment I made about the TX fees not keeping the difficulty up, so something potentially needs to be done to solve that.
774 2011-05-20 02:30:53 <ArtForzZz> thats where limited block sizes come in ;)
775 2011-05-20 02:31:24 <gmaxwell> oh, that too. that keeps too low from being that attractive.
776 2011-05-20 02:31:30 <erbs> i dont think its a problem other than extremely theoretical and maybe 20 years in the future :)
777 2011-05-20 02:31:40 <ArtForzZz> yeah
778 2011-05-20 02:32:02 <erbs> because as you said, bitcoin is competing with other currencies and payment methods - fees cant exceed what visa .. or what those thieves at paypal are charging.. there are externally imposed limits
779 2011-05-20 02:32:20 <ArtForzZz> as even if a miner doesnt enforce a min fee, he'll still prioritize by fee
780 2011-05-20 02:32:20 <gmaxwell> Yes.
781 2011-05-20 02:32:31 <Optimo> why can't the code limit the number of hashses by one node?
782 2011-05-20 02:32:42 <ArtForzZz> Optimo: because.
783 2011-05-20 02:32:44 <gmaxwell> Optimo: ... because that node would take out the limit.
784 2011-05-20 02:33:02 <Optimo> or have that scale with the other laws
785 2011-05-20 02:33:08 <ArtForzZz> it doesn't work
786 2011-05-20 02:33:12 Neskia has joined
787 2011-05-20 02:33:15 <ArtForzZz> how do you determine what "a node" is?
788 2011-05-20 02:33:20 <ArtForzZz> by IP doesn't work
789 2011-05-20 02:33:21 <gmaxwell> Optimo: because that node would adopt multiple identities.
790 2011-05-20 02:33:27 <Optimo> ah
791 2011-05-20 02:33:39 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: I know, they could do a really hard proof of work to create an identity each time!
792 2011-05-20 02:33:41 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
793 2011-05-20 02:33:45 <ArtForzZz> which is why we use proof-of-work in the first place ;)
794 2011-05-20 02:33:51 <gmaxwell> hehehehe
795 2011-05-20 02:34:07 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: it's proof-of-work all the way down! ;)
796 2011-05-20 02:34:15 <ArtForzZz> or was it turtles ...
797 2011-05-20 02:34:29 <Optimo> it was stones from another island
798 2011-05-20 02:35:22 <XX01XX> palau
799 2011-05-20 02:35:39 <Optimo> rereading EC crypto papers
800 2011-05-20 02:35:39 <XX01XX> I assume we're talking about lapp stone money?
801 2011-05-20 02:35:53 <Optimo> yeah, some video regarding bitcoin mentioned it
802 2011-05-20 02:35:55 <erbs> ArtForzZz is the man
803 2011-05-20 02:35:57 <Optimo> I think it was gavin?
804 2011-05-20 02:36:11 jmorton has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
805 2011-05-20 02:36:11 <erbs> pls send me a miningbox
806 2011-05-20 02:36:16 <XX01XX> Link to vidya?
807 2011-05-20 02:36:41 oneman has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
808 2011-05-20 02:37:33 oneman has joined
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810 2011-05-20 02:37:49 BlueMatt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
811 2011-05-20 02:37:52 Malamute has quit (Quit: Page closed)
812 2011-05-20 02:38:51 Moonies has joined
813 2011-05-20 02:39:20 <erbs> if you reduce the difficulty back to levels where simple cpu mining could bring in some nominal bitcoins, then the index will skyrocket - because that is much higher level of user adoption if decent mining is actually possible for the masses
814 2011-05-20 02:39:29 jaminja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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816 2011-05-20 02:39:45 <erbs> (which would mean accelerating the issuance of bitcoin, but who has decades to wait for it all to be issued)
817 2011-05-20 02:41:00 <gmaxwell> erbs: you'd totally ruin all confidence in the predictable behavior of the currency.
818 2011-05-20 02:41:06 <erbs> users who mined bitcoins will find ways to sell them for money
819 2011-05-20 02:41:11 <Optimo> XX01XX, it was on youtube.. dunno
820 2011-05-20 02:41:15 <Dek> the whole point of the system is artificial scarcity to allow certain individuals to profit from the early adopters. That would be ruined if bitcoins were spread widely
821 2011-05-20 02:41:28 <gmaxwell> Who'd buy? "What will those crazy people who are answerable to no one do tomorrow?"
822 2011-05-20 02:41:32 GuruSteve has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
823 2011-05-20 02:41:33 <erbs> gmaxwell: im just saying to adjust the rate of production (which is arbitrarily set at 50 per 10 min)
824 2011-05-20 02:41:46 <ArtForzZz> erbs: why?
825 2011-05-20 02:41:48 <erbs> theres no reason why 50/10 min is better than 50/5 min
826 2011-05-20 02:41:56 <ArtForzZz> yes, there is
827 2011-05-20 02:42:01 <gmaxwell> thems the rules!
828 2011-05-20 02:42:11 <erbs> its not better from an investors point of view. its an arbitrary number
829 2011-05-20 02:42:23 <ArtForzZz> it's better from a technical point of view
830 2011-05-20 02:42:39 <erbs> the reason is simple: you get more users if they can easily mine a few coins with their pc by joining a pool or whatever
831 2011-05-20 02:42:54 <erbs> the bounty size is arbitrary
832 2011-05-20 02:42:55 <ArtForzZz> you can't reduce block interval without increasing natural chain forks
833 2011-05-20 02:43:04 <ArtForzZz> you could get even more users if you just gave em away for free
834 2011-05-20 02:43:14 <erbs> 50/5min is equivalent to increasing bounty to 100/10min
835 2011-05-20 02:43:23 <ArtForzZz> they'd be worthless, but there'd be a lot.
836 2011-05-20 02:43:44 <erbs> theres no reason 50-per block is somehow valuable, but 100 per block isn't
837 2011-05-20 02:43:46 <ArtForzZz> which is the exact same scenatio as we had in the early days of bitcoin
838 2011-05-20 02:44:05 <Optimo> how can I twist this into a counterargument for your inevitable sinister megapools
839 2011-05-20 02:44:08 <ArtForzZz> and then in a few years we'll do the same thing again, devaluation FTW
840 2011-05-20 02:44:26 <erbs> bitcoin is devaluing at 50btc every 10 min now
841 2011-05-20 02:44:31 <ArtForzZz> no it's not
842 2011-05-20 02:44:36 <gmaxwell> the percieved _risk_ of it happening again will drive the price straight to the logical conclusion...
843 2011-05-20 02:44:44 <erbs> the supply is increasing, therefore each unit decreases in value
844 2011-05-20 02:44:44 <ArtForzZz> because everyone knew the rules beforehand
845 2011-05-20 02:44:53 <gmaxwell> exactly!
846 2011-05-20 02:44:53 <ArtForzZz> start changing the rules, there goes any trust in the system
847 2011-05-20 02:45:07 <gmaxwell> that 'devaultation' is baked in the price.
848 2011-05-20 02:45:18 <gmaxwell> it would be regardless of the rules.
849 2011-05-20 02:45:35 <gmaxwell> but if you change the rules people may rationally assume an almost infinite eventual devaulation.
850 2011-05-20 02:45:43 <Dek> "trust" by people who have a vested interest in the status quo, not by new people who gain access to the system
851 2011-05-20 02:45:59 <erbs> im just saying - theres a critical "tipping point" where lots of users will adopt it if they can do some mining on their pc - beyond that adoption is much slower and there are more pitfalls to growth... the question is what is the ideal rate of user adoption and how to achieve it
852 2011-05-20 02:46:12 <ArtForzZz> again, and how will those people know you won't pull the same stunt again in a few months?
853 2011-05-20 02:46:22 <gmaxwell> Dek: more reason to trust them!
854 2011-05-20 02:46:33 <gmaxwell> Dek: trust is about predictability above all else.
855 2011-05-20 02:46:39 calebot has joined
856 2011-05-20 02:47:06 <erbs> the users have the belief that bitcoin's maintainers are doing their best to increase the value ($USD) of btc and will adjust the rate of production to maximize value
857 2011-05-20 02:47:27 <gmaxwell> erbs: if so, go convince bitcoin millionares that its in their best interest to operate a stupidly productive at-a-loss shares for cash service.
858 2011-05-20 02:47:41 <erbs> shares for cash?
859 2011-05-20 02:47:51 <gmaxwell> a faucet powered by pow.
860 2011-05-20 02:48:11 <Dek> truth is if people dont spend bitcoins and use bitcoins and spread them out there wont be long term growth in demand
861 2011-05-20 02:48:15 drhodes has joined
862 2011-05-20 02:48:20 <Dek> so hopefully people who have em are using em
863 2011-05-20 02:48:44 <gmaxwell> Dek: which is why the focus on mining erbs would support is fundimentally bad.
864 2011-05-20 02:48:45 <erbs> the viral hook is the act of mining bitcoin.. remember they called it a "gold rush".. not a "gold trickle"
865 2011-05-20 02:49:01 Rudycoin has joined
866 2011-05-20 02:49:05 <gmaxwell> Because it encourages thinking of bitcoin as a make money fast thing rather than a currency.
867 2011-05-20 02:49:12 <Optimo> gold rush also creates a trickle
868 2011-05-20 02:49:15 <ArtForzZz> guess what, it's not a money tree!
869 2011-05-20 02:49:24 <gmaxwell> lots of talk of mining #bitcoin, very few in setting up bitcoin businesses or buying bitcoin things.
870 2011-05-20 02:49:36 ar4s has joined
871 2011-05-20 02:49:43 <erbs> its a business, ppl are out to make money
872 2011-05-20 02:49:47 <Optimo> smart people will come together
873 2011-05-20 02:49:52 <Optimo> just takes time
874 2011-05-20 02:49:55 <Dek> there isnt a very large market that can pay in bitcoins
875 2011-05-20 02:50:07 <Dek> so hard to run a business like that i would assume
876 2011-05-20 02:50:18 <jlewis> i think it hurt the economy when mtgox allowed easy withdrawal w/ dwolla
877 2011-05-20 02:50:20 <gmaxwell> erbs: we ought to encourage them to make money by buying and selling goods and services, since thats strictly necessary for BTC's success, while nothing else is.
878 2011-05-20 02:50:23 <erbs> very soon decisions will not be based on "keeping in spirit with a non-inflatable currency etc" but how to maximize their pockets
879 2011-05-20 02:50:27 <jlewis> incentived people to play on the exchange more
880 2011-05-20 02:50:29 <Optimo> it's early, you have to be in it for longterm at this time
881 2011-05-20 02:50:30 <jlewis> instead of use it as a currency
882 2011-05-20 02:50:52 calebot has left ()
883 2011-05-20 02:50:54 <gmaxwell> jlewis: I wonder if the exchange has spread btc to more people or concentrated it more?
884 2011-05-20 02:51:01 <Optimo> everything you mention should not be addressed by changing the code
885 2011-05-20 02:51:05 <Dek> good idea gmaxwell
886 2011-05-20 02:51:15 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: it sure as hell spread my btc
887 2011-05-20 02:51:16 <Optimo> but by building the infrastructure around the commodity
888 2011-05-20 02:51:26 <Dek> art: lol
889 2011-05-20 02:51:26 <jlewis> i'm not sure... i think a ton of people are just speculating, but there are some big sellers like ArtForzZz :p
890 2011-05-20 02:51:41 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: might have all been bought by a single 'investor'
891 2011-05-20 02:51:50 <ArtForzZz> without big exchanges I'd be sitting on several 100kbtc, and buying a *lot* of alpaca socks...
892 2011-05-20 02:52:05 <Dek> lol
893 2011-05-20 02:52:06 <erbs> fact is, bitcoin users are in it for short term gain - no single user has any personal incentive to create an actual USD competitor, but to maximize their short term gains
894 2011-05-20 02:52:07 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: but your video cards keep you warm already.
895 2011-05-20 02:52:12 <erbs> nice ArtForzZz
896 2011-05-20 02:52:20 <gmaxwell> erbs: we need to change that, because thats not sustainable.
897 2011-05-20 02:52:28 <Optimo> erbs, not nobody, some people will
898 2011-05-20 02:52:59 <Optimo> there are also leisure gamblers
899 2011-05-20 02:53:11 <Optimo> and people strictly diversifying
900 2011-05-20 02:53:25 <erbs> as soon as bitcoin has value it turns into a money game, rather than a cool experiment :) ppl generally follow incentives..
901 2011-05-20 02:53:37 <gmaxwell> erbs: where did the weusecoins video come from if no one has an incentive?
902 2011-05-20 02:53:41 <Optimo> dollars is a money game at a level well beyond my tax bracket
903 2011-05-20 02:54:37 <gmaxwell> erbs: and the bounties paid on places accepting coin?
904 2011-05-20 02:54:54 <Optimo> nobody said bitcoin technology has to solve fundamental human conditioning
905 2011-05-20 02:54:57 <erbs> gmaxwell: pump pump pump (the dump)
906 2011-05-20 02:55:04 <ArtForzZz> irrelevant, erbs can't mine enough coins!
907 2011-05-20 02:55:17 <erbs> same reason some bitcoin guys have a faucet :)
908 2011-05-20 02:55:22 <ArtForzZz> so change the system, NOW!
909 2011-05-20 02:55:28 <erbs> lol ArtForzZz!
910 2011-05-20 02:55:50 <gmaxwell> was it erbs that posted on the forms asking if there were any communist pools? :)
911 2011-05-20 02:55:54 <erbs> no im not trying to become a miner.. im looking at how to increase the value of btc by optimizing the adoption rate
912 2011-05-20 02:56:08 <Optimo> get busy making connections in software
913 2011-05-20 02:56:11 <Optimo> adding a layer
914 2011-05-20 02:56:29 <gmaxwell> erbs: there is already inertia. You can make more with addons.
915 2011-05-20 02:56:43 stahi has joined
916 2011-05-20 02:56:54 <erbs> you have to admit theres an optimal adoption rate, that maximizes bitcoins viability and value.. im saying it works best when mining becomes a viral thing (rather than something that is no longer practical for most end-users)
917 2011-05-20 02:57:08 <ArtForzZz> yes
918 2011-05-20 02:57:14 <Optimo> send infinite bitcoin fractions to random wallet addresses
919 2011-05-20 02:57:15 malnilion has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
920 2011-05-20 02:57:35 <erbs> mining is better than free distribution because ppl dont value things they get for free. but when theyre involved in making it / mining it, they become attached to it
921 2011-05-20 02:57:39 <ArtForzZz> and we had exponential growth for months already
922 2011-05-20 02:57:59 <gmaxwell> e.g. rhett__ complained that fast turnaround TX (<<20minutes) are risky, I countered that there is a business to be made rating and insuring those transactions against reversal. Someone could build it and solve a real if not currently significant risk in the system, without changing anything or risking confidence.
923 2011-05-20 02:58:06 <Optimo> erbs, you think you can see the real scope but you can't tell from inside th trend
924 2011-05-20 02:58:17 <Optimo> you can't see the ramp
925 2011-05-20 02:58:26 <LobsterMan> ;;bc,stats
926 2011-05-20 02:58:28 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125211 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1796 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 18 hours, 28 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 312934.35336843
927 2011-05-20 02:58:32 <erbs> well ive said that there are plausible scenarios where btc reaches $300
928 2011-05-20 02:58:34 <Optimo> 2 and a half years or so is just the start
929 2011-05-20 02:58:37 <gmaxwell> erbs: thats why I said POW faucet earlier, I was thinking free=worthless at the time.
930 2011-05-20 02:58:39 <erbs> based on the merits of the protocol etc
931 2011-05-20 02:58:49 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: you invented the CC company? ;)
932 2011-05-20 02:59:07 BlueMattBot has joined
933 2011-05-20 02:59:10 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: CC overlay on BTC. Want the old system back? FINE!
934 2011-05-20 02:59:10 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
935 2011-05-20 02:59:30 Moonies has joined
936 2011-05-20 02:59:51 <erbs> yeah ppl think free is worthless
937 2011-05-20 02:59:55 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: I actually expect things like that to pop up and work pretty well
938 2011-05-20 02:59:58 <erbs> its a cognitive bias..
939 2011-05-20 03:00:06 <gmaxwell> but really, a TX insurer would be a useful service. With superior network visiblity and priority contracts with miners they could make better risk decisions than you.
940 2011-05-20 03:00:21 <erbs> then again, "Free Shipping" etc is like crack to retail buyers.. they love the very word free
941 2011-05-20 03:00:36 <erbs> (something they usually pay for that is suddently free is like crack cocaine to them!)
942 2011-05-20 03:00:40 <gmaxwell> erbs: you have to first charge for it, then give it away.
943 2011-05-20 03:00:44 <erbs> true
944 2011-05-20 03:00:44 demosophy has joined
945 2011-05-20 03:00:50 <Optimo> what about coupling another transaction to a very cheap bitcoin tx
946 2011-05-20 03:01:24 <gmaxwell> obviously the payout schedule should have gone hard, easy, hard. ;)
947 2011-05-20 03:01:27 <Optimo> buy this for $ and we will give you x btc
948 2011-05-20 03:01:34 xelister is now known as nanotbue
949 2011-05-20 03:01:48 <gmaxwell> ohh. hey
950 2011-05-20 03:01:51 <gmaxwell> thats cute.
951 2011-05-20 03:01:54 <gmaxwell> rebates in bitcoin!
952 2011-05-20 03:02:00 <Optimo> yes
953 2011-05-20 03:02:05 <gmaxwell> plus make them have a wallet to redeem bit rebate.
954 2011-05-20 03:02:05 <Optimo> !
955 2011-05-20 03:02:10 <Optimo> because rebates suck ass
956 2011-05-20 03:02:12 <gmaxwell> s/bit/the/
957 2011-05-20 03:02:17 <Optimo> let's do it
958 2011-05-20 03:02:27 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: isnt someone already doing that for amazon?
959 2011-05-20 03:02:29 <Optimo> you could almost insure against a current rate
960 2011-05-20 03:02:43 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: oh? well awesome for them. Using the referral fees I guess?
961 2011-05-20 03:02:47 jaminja has joined
962 2011-05-20 03:02:49 <ArtForzZz> yea
963 2011-05-20 03:02:57 <Optimo> mhm'
964 2011-05-20 03:03:04 nanotbue is now known as xelister
965 2011-05-20 03:03:09 <Optimo> not a bad idea tho.
966 2011-05-20 03:03:12 <gmaxwell> Optimo: because not everyone will cash in the rebate it becomes cheap to do.
967 2011-05-20 03:03:23 <Optimo> you can hedge on the insurance..
968 2011-05-20 03:03:44 BlueMatt has joined
969 2011-05-20 03:03:48 <gmaxwell> Optimo: need people to buy the other sides of the contracts to hedge.
970 2011-05-20 03:03:48 <gmaxwell> No li
971 2011-05-20 03:03:53 <Optimo> most rebate processors are outsourced anyway
972 2011-05-20 03:03:57 <erbs> anyway bitcoin is fine as it is.. we just need more commerce
973 2011-05-20 03:04:36 <gmaxwell> quid markets for BTC futures yet. I dunno how many people are dying to buy btc risk, or how many are not using btc because they can't sell it.
974 2011-05-20 03:04:36 <Optimo> is the 'suggested fee' related to anything?
975 2011-05-20 03:04:47 has joined
976 2011-05-20 03:04:54 <erbs> funny you should mention that gmaxwell
977 2011-05-20 03:05:40 n3t5pLi7 has joined
978 2011-05-20 03:05:49 <erbs> interesting linkedin closes at $94.25 +49.25 (109.44%)
979 2011-05-20 03:06:03 <Optimo> wow
980 2011-05-20 03:06:12 <n3t5pLi7> hey guys, i had a quick question. how long does it take to earn any bitcoins? i have been running the application almost all day and im still at 0.00 ?
981 2011-05-20 03:06:30 <Raccoon> n3t5pLi7: the client application?
982 2011-05-20 03:06:34 <gmaxwell> need to get the next client version out.. ^ bad user expirence.
983 2011-05-20 03:06:35 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
984 2011-05-20 03:06:38 <n3t5pLi7> yes
985 2011-05-20 03:06:47 <Raccoon> in windows?
986 2011-05-20 03:06:56 <Optimo> gmaxwell, what about the 'suggested fee'? ^
987 2011-05-20 03:06:56 <n3t5pLi7> yes in windows
988 2011-05-20 03:06:58 <Dek> it could take you years
989 2011-05-20 03:07:01 <Dek> to see a block
990 2011-05-20 03:07:01 <Raccoon> on a laptop?
991 2011-05-20 03:07:04 Neskia is now known as Nesetalis
992 2011-05-20 03:07:07 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: generating coins in the client nowadays is like a lottery with fairly poor odds.
993 2011-05-20 03:07:12 <n3t5pLi7> no im on a quad core 3ghz machine
994 2011-05-20 03:07:18 <Dek> still will take years
995 2011-05-20 03:07:20 <gmaxwell> Optimo: what? the suggested TX fee in the client.
996 2011-05-20 03:07:21 <Raccoon> probably a few years
997 2011-05-20 03:07:25 <Raccoon> less than a decade though
998 2011-05-20 03:07:32 <Optimo> yes, is that realted to any factor?
999 2011-05-20 03:07:34 <Optimo> relateds
1000 2011-05-20 03:07:44 jaminja_ has joined
1001 2011-05-20 03:07:48 <n3t5pLi7> hrm so running the client will not generate bitcoins is what your saying ? lol
1002 2011-05-20 03:07:55 <Raccoon> it will
1003 2011-05-20 03:07:58 <Dek> you could get very lucky
1004 2011-05-20 03:07:59 <gmaxwell> Optimo: size of the TX. Also it'll currently force it if the tx is very low priority (based on value, age of coins, and size)
1005 2011-05-20 03:08:01 <n3t5pLi7> how do i earn bitcoins then to start transactions w/ other people
1006 2011-05-20 03:08:02 <Dek> but the probability is incredibly small
1007 2011-05-20 03:08:06 <Raccoon> actually, chances are that you'll solve one in the next second
1008 2011-05-20 03:08:11 jaminja has quit (Disconnected by services)
1009 2011-05-20 03:08:12 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: oh it will. it's just very unlikely.
1010 2011-05-20 03:08:14 <Dek> the only way is to buy from someone or provide a service to someone
1011 2011-05-20 03:08:30 <Raccoon> people typically buy and sell them for cash
1012 2011-05-20 03:08:33 jaminja_ has quit (Changing host)
1013 2011-05-20 03:08:34 jaminja_ has joined
1014 2011-05-20 03:08:40 <Raccoon> or they buy specific mining rigs to produce them
1015 2011-05-20 03:08:41 jaminja_ is now known as jaminja
1016 2011-05-20 03:08:46 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1017 2011-05-20 03:08:55 <Raccoon> an average mining rig would produce about 4 a day with the previous difficulty
1018 2011-05-20 03:08:57 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: if you happen to have a modern ati gpu laying around then that will generate some with the right software.
1019 2011-05-20 03:08:59 <n3t5pLi7> but if you buy and sell them for cash, how would the initial people who started to have them have had them to buy from someone else in the first place?
1020 2011-05-20 03:09:02 <Raccoon> more like 2.5 or 3 a day now
1021 2011-05-20 03:09:23 <Raccoon> people who spend about $800 on a dedicated machine for mining
1022 2011-05-20 03:09:23 phantomcircuit has quit (Quit: Clever quit message!)
1023 2011-05-20 03:09:36 <Raccoon> figuring it'll pay for itsself after 3 or 5 months
1024 2011-05-20 03:09:47 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: the difficulty in generating them is adjusted by the system so that 7200 are produced every day on average...
1025 2011-05-20 03:09:50 <Raccoon> but that could just as quickly turn into 2 years if too many people start mining
1026 2011-05-20 03:09:56 <gmaxwell> proportional to the hashpower of the involved systems.
1027 2011-05-20 03:10:05 <n3t5pLi7> my pc is a gaming pc i have sitting dedicated to the cause, 6gig ram dual gpu, quad core 3ghz
1028 2011-05-20 03:10:06 <gmaxwell> and the people with GPUs now have all the hashpower.
1029 2011-05-20 03:10:14 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: what kind of gpu?
1030 2011-05-20 03:10:26 <Raccoon> the quad core won't produce many hashes
1031 2011-05-20 03:10:33 <Raccoon> graphics cards are 1000x faster than cpus
1032 2011-05-20 03:10:40 <gmaxwell> well ATI cards are.
1033 2011-05-20 03:10:42 <ArtForzZz> about 40-100x really
1034 2011-05-20 03:10:49 <n3t5pLi7> GeForce GTX 550 Ti
1035 2011-05-20 03:10:51 <ArtForzZz> ugh
1036 2011-05-20 03:10:53 <gmaxwell> The nvidia stuff is more like 10x faster, alas.
1037 2011-05-20 03:10:57 <ArtForzZz> yea
1038 2011-05-20 03:11:18 theorbtwo has joined
1039 2011-05-20 03:11:24 datathe1st has joined
1040 2011-05-20 03:11:43 <erbs> hmmmmm
1041 2011-05-20 03:11:46 <Raccoon> i have an amish family helping me hash blocks
1042 2011-05-20 03:11:57 <gmaxwell> the wiki says the 560 TI does 67MH.
1043 2011-05-20 03:12:11 <Raccoon> they're building a custom quilting rig that similates the SHA-256 hashing algo
1044 2011-05-20 03:12:16 <ArtForzZz> didnt he say 550Ti ?
1045 2011-05-20 03:12:18 <erbs> nice Raccoon
1046 2011-05-20 03:12:18 <Optimo> so the suggested TX fee takes into account relative age from the present but not age from epoch
1047 2011-05-20 03:12:25 <gmaxwell> not listed, so I dunno.
1048 2011-05-20 03:12:27 <Raccoon> so they can quilt me an exact block hash in about 5 minutes
1049 2011-05-20 03:13:08 <gmaxwell> Raccoon: I'd love to see how the carries work for the adders.
1050 2011-05-20 03:13:17 <ArtForzZz> Raccoon: meh, I only have 5000 hyperactive squirrels
1051 2011-05-20 03:13:18 NOTAL has joined
1052 2011-05-20 03:13:21 <Raccoon> hehe
1053 2011-05-20 03:13:39 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: so lets just assume you could get the 67mh...
1054 2011-05-20 03:13:41 <Raccoon> could be done
1055 2011-05-20 03:13:45 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,gen 67000
1056 2011-05-20 03:13:47 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 67000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.276032786923 BTC per day and 0.0115013661218 BTC per hour.
1057 2011-05-20 03:14:06 <drhodes> If the US feds allocated huge compute facilities and made it impossible for other people to mine effectively, would this disrupt the project?
1058 2011-05-20 03:14:15 <ArtForzZz> drhodes: yes
1059 2011-05-20 03:14:30 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: for comparison a ATI 5850 ($150 if you can find them) does on the order of 320MH/s with a really modest overclock.
1060 2011-05-20 03:14:30 usm has joined
1061 2011-05-20 03:14:58 xelister has left ("Konversation terminated!")
1062 2011-05-20 03:15:16 <gmaxwell> drhodes: also disrupting the project: DDOSing all computers running it, spending money on some really nasty advertising, or jailing/assisinating all the developers.
1063 2011-05-20 03:15:31 <ArtForzZz> just nuke it from orbit
1064 2011-05-20 03:15:38 <gmaxwell> drhodes: highly visible technical attacks are not the cheapest way to screw with things.
1065 2011-05-20 03:15:39 <drhodes> gmaxwell: but those are illegal
1066 2011-05-20 03:15:40 <Optimo> and dont forget timetravel and quantum mumbojumbu and joojoo
1067 2011-05-20 03:15:41 <gmaxwell> ArtForzZz: only way to be sure.
1068 2011-05-20 03:16:02 <ArtForzZz> gmaxwell: yup, how did you know? ;)
1069 2011-05-20 03:16:23 <gmaxwell> drhodes: oh, you're suggesting that they continue processing transactions as usual?
1070 2011-05-20 03:16:43 <gmaxwell> drhodes: That would be less disruptive than grabbing most of the hash power and not processing transactions.
1071 2011-05-20 03:16:48 <drhodes> gmaxwell: I'm not suggesting anything
1072 2011-05-20 03:17:25 <gmaxwell> The latter being potentially not legal (or at least people harmed by such an obviously malicious action would have a chance of recovering in civil litigation) while the former probably is.
1073 2011-05-20 03:17:30 euclid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1074 2011-05-20 03:18:26 <gmaxwell> drhodes: in any case, running a smear campaign is perfectly legal.
1075 2011-05-20 03:18:31 <gmaxwell> BITCOIN IS THE TERROR DOLLAR.
1076 2011-05-20 03:18:37 <da2ce7> we need to fixup https for bitcoin.org!
1077 2011-05-20 03:18:38 <da2ce7> :)
1078 2011-05-20 03:18:47 <gmaxwell> "We're thinking of outlawing bitcoin."
1079 2011-05-20 03:19:01 <n3t5pLi7> how can anyone have enough bitcoins to supply anyone else at this rate if this is said to be a newer service. Its not really viable to keep any single machine dedicated to the cause if the return is so low
1080 2011-05-20 03:19:02 <drhodes> gmaxwell: yep. or drug dollar, or hired for murder bollar.
1081 2011-05-20 03:19:36 datathe1st is now known as datathe1st-away
1082 2011-05-20 03:19:44 <erbs> the way for bitcoin to avoid govt scrutiny is to accept funding from the cia
1083 2011-05-20 03:19:47 <gmaxwell> "bitcoin is insecure! blahblahgarblecrap-no-one-will-understand-that-means-nothing"
1084 2011-05-20 03:20:01 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-251-229-203.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
1085 2011-05-20 03:20:12 <n3t5pLi7> from what i was under the impression of, the concept was run the application, and generate bitcoins.. but it wasnt stated that it would be such a low rate its virtually not worth it dollar for dollar to even runt he application if the return is almost nothing
1086 2011-05-20 03:20:34 <Optimo> n3t5pLi7, you could buy some hardware and join a pool and make slighlty more than you spend on that and electricity, or make a bigger investment
1087 2011-05-20 03:20:38 <Raccoon> n3t5pLi7, all the documentation actually says otherwise.
1088 2011-05-20 03:21:15 <erbs> tho i maintain bitcoin is definitely *not* breaking any laws.. there are no laws saying ppl cant trade things with each other, whether those things are alpaca socks, picasso paintings, or numbers on a disk
1089 2011-05-20 03:21:17 <Raccoon> the documentation says that mining is done 'mostly for fun' and is 'not very profitable unless you have custom equipment and cheap access to power'
1090 2011-05-20 03:21:29 <Optimo> n3t5pLi7, you might buy some btc if you want to spend btc
1091 2011-05-20 03:21:48 <erbs> even private currencies are completely legal - as long as you dont try to con ppl into thinking your currency is a US dollar (as they accused liberty dollar)
1092 2011-05-20 03:21:50 <Raccoon> the bitcoinfaucet it still dripping
1093 2011-05-20 03:21:53 <Raccoon> *is
1094 2011-05-20 03:22:06 <erbs> and e-gold got screwed for violating know your customer laws..transferring money without the proper licenses/reporting etc
1095 2011-05-20 03:22:21 <erbs> nothing about bitcoin is illegal tho (some ppl are claiming only the govt can make things of value/money which is preposterous)
1096 2011-05-20 03:22:38 <Optimo> just noticed we're in -dev
1097 2011-05-20 03:23:53 <erbs> i could go around selling prime numbers tomorrow as currency
1098 2011-05-20 03:24:06 <erbs> or selling mp3s which are just numbers
1099 2011-05-20 03:24:07 <Raccoon> i'll sell you the whole Pi.
1100 2011-05-20 03:24:30 <drhodes> that's irrational
1101 2011-05-20 03:24:37 <ArtForzZz> lol
1102 2011-05-20 03:24:45 <n3t5pLi7> if a pc works 24 hrs and cannot generate 2 bitcoins, in rl currency the equivelent of that dollar for coin is less than slave wages :P
1103 2011-05-20 03:25:06 <ArtForzZz> yes, lucky theres no laws against pc slave labor
1104 2011-05-20 03:25:07 <sacarlson> erbs: ya they sell those phone card chargers that some people around here use as money so what would be the difference?
1105 2011-05-20 03:25:54 <Raccoon> and i'll even throw in Phi for 22/7 off.
1106 2011-05-20 03:25:58 <erbs> theres no difference.. ppl are drawing false comparisons to Liberty Dollar - they got 'busted' because the feds accused them of trying to *trick* ppl into accepting their currency as US dollars.. even the name was designed to confuse ppl they said
1107 2011-05-20 03:26:06 <Optimo> n3t5pLi7 there's no such thing as free money
1108 2011-05-20 03:26:08 <Optimo> lol
1109 2011-05-20 03:26:12 <ArtForzZz> we keep out poor GPUs in the mines all their lifes, and when they're old and tired or just not productive anough anymore we sell them.
1110 2011-05-20 03:26:18 <ArtForzZz> talk about slave labor.
1111 2011-05-20 03:26:21 <gmaxwell> n3t5pLi7: if the pc has a cheap ati gpu it generates a couple bitcoin. Plus.. computers _are_ slaves. Work slave work.
1112 2011-05-20 03:26:44 <erbs> no one is going around claiming that bitcoins have any affiliation with the govt.. the opposite is true
1113 2011-05-20 03:26:45 kika_ has joined
1114 2011-05-20 03:26:49 <ArtForzZz> no playing games for you, back to mining!
1115 2011-05-20 03:26:58 <sacarlson> erbs: well that probly was a scam it was a cold plated coin worth about $2 that probly sold for over $20
1116 2011-05-20 03:27:08 hw1979 has joined
1117 2011-05-20 03:27:10 <kika_> anyone here knows where i can see a graph of how much a btc is worth in usd since the network started?
1118 2011-05-20 03:27:43 <Raccoon> www.mtgox.com
1119 2011-05-20 03:27:44 <sacarlson> kika_: doesn't mtgox.com have some?
1120 2011-05-20 03:27:50 <Raccoon> under Trade Data
1121 2011-05-20 03:28:02 <gmaxwell> There is a ted talk (re: peak oil) where the speaker points out that the jar of oil he's holding contains the energetic equal of a week of hard labor... so the more oil you use, the more wealthy you become. Same kind of argument goes for computing.
1122 2011-05-20 03:28:33 <erbs> liberty dollar: "charged with one count of conspiracy to possess and sell coins in resemblance and similitude of coins of a denomination higher th"an five cents, and silver coins in resemblance of genuine coins of the United States"
1123 2011-05-20 03:28:47 <gmaxwell> Except this stupid little chip contains the calculating power of ten zillion zillion zillion dudes with abacuses, rather than people doing hard labor. ;)
1124 2011-05-20 03:28:52 <Optimo> when peak oil finally happens oh boy
1125 2011-05-20 03:28:54 <erbs> "one count of uttering, passing, and attempting to utter and pass, silver coins in resemblance of genuine U.S. coins"
1126 2011-05-20 03:29:17 <Optimo> gmaxwell, and I thikn I heard it takes ~60 gallons of fresh water to fab an iphone
1127 2011-05-20 03:29:19 <gmaxwell> I didn't intend to start an oil discussion, sorry aobut that.
1128 2011-05-20 03:29:19 <Alexees> kika_: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/
1129 2011-05-20 03:29:30 <Optimo> gpu must be crazy water waste
1130 2011-05-20 03:29:33 <Optimo> not to mention carbon
1131 2011-05-20 03:29:38 <Raccoon> same happened with Ron Paul gold dollars
1132 2011-05-20 03:29:44 <gmaxwell> Optimo: takes more water to operate the people who could do the same amount of calculations per second!
1133 2011-05-20 03:29:54 <erbs> trying to pass your own coins off as US legal tender is an offense....of course
1134 2011-05-20 03:29:55 <Optimo> true
1135 2011-05-20 03:30:06 <gmaxwell> Optimo: a lot of the enviromental impact is in the screen I expect.
1136 2011-05-20 03:30:14 <Optimo> but arguably before distributed computing there is a lot of waste
1137 2011-05-20 03:30:17 <Raccoon> apparently coining your own gold rounds is also illegal
1138 2011-05-20 03:30:42 <erbs> you can really make any coins you want, as long as theres no confusion when you exchange them with other ppl
1139 2011-05-20 03:30:54 <Raccoon> there was no confusion with ron paul coins
1140 2011-05-20 03:31:06 <Raccoon> they were just really popular
1141 2011-05-20 03:31:08 <erbs> the govt will say if you try to pay with your nickels and quarters at retail places you're relying on them assuming its US tender
1142 2011-05-20 03:31:08 <Optimo> you could start a new chain with new rules and call it shitcoin
1143 2011-05-20 03:31:19 <sacarlson> I plan to add a human readable header to my Weeds currency of weeds_ at the same time I was wondering how you would feel if I also added the human readable header testnet_ to the bitcoin testnet address when that my client generates a testnet address. I've already had someone try to put his real BTC into my site that is meant for only testnet funds
1144 2011-05-20 03:31:19 <kika_> Alexees: thx
1145 2011-05-20 03:31:24 <kika_> sacarlson: thxs
1146 2011-05-20 03:31:27 hw1979 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1147 2011-05-20 03:32:34 <Raccoon> weeds currency? do link
1148 2011-05-20 03:32:40 <sacarlson> I plan to not add any header to the real bitcoin addresses to keep them compatable accross clients
1149 2011-05-20 03:33:13 <erbs> coining your own money isn't illegal... making it look like US tender to confuse ppl or trying to pass them as legal tender is tho....
1150 2011-05-20 03:33:26 <Raccoon> erbs: then what happened to the ron paul dollars?
1151 2011-05-20 03:33:48 <Optimo> maybe if they were called 'dollars'
1152 2011-05-20 03:33:50 <erbs> well they called them "dollars" that would be confusing (according to the feds view)
1153 2011-05-20 03:34:01 <Raccoon> 'dollar' is a dictionary word that predates the US Dollar.
1154 2011-05-20 03:34:10 <erbs> you cant really have a website selling Dollars to people
1155 2011-05-20 03:34:12 <sacarlson> Raccoon: yes and weeds is based on the price of one can of beer
1156 2011-05-20 03:34:13 <Raccoon> there are many countries that use the word
1157 2011-05-20 03:34:30 <erbs> true.. but even calling them "Greenbacks" would be viewed as illegal
1158 2011-05-20 03:34:34 <Raccoon> there are many arcades, grocery stores, and services that offer 'dollars'
1159 2011-05-20 03:34:38 <erbs> since it could confuse ppl into thinking they were legal tender
1160 2011-05-20 03:34:39 <sacarlson> Raccoon: I could change the name to beercoin?
1161 2011-05-20 03:34:40 <Optimo> it's not about a trademark it's about confusing the people
1162 2011-05-20 03:34:54 <ArtForzZz> Raccoon: those are tokens, not coins
1163 2011-05-20 03:35:04 <Raccoon> ArtForzZz: in paper form
1164 2011-05-20 03:35:15 <ArtForzZz> whatever, doesnt matter
1165 2011-05-20 03:35:17 hw1979 has joined
1166 2011-05-20 03:35:22 <sacarlson> ArtForzZz: wow beertokens I like it
1167 2011-05-20 03:35:35 Moonies has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1168 2011-05-20 03:35:39 <Raccoon> "One Shopping Buck" or "Prize Dollar" or whatever
1169 2011-05-20 03:36:03 Moonies has joined
1170 2011-05-20 03:36:03 <Raccoon> as long as it doesn't say Federal Reserve or United States or Legal Tender or
1171 2011-05-20 03:36:03 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
1172 2011-05-20 03:36:15 <luke-jr> Optimo: trademarks are about not confusing people
1173 2011-05-20 03:36:16 <sacarlson> ArtForzZz: I'll start my artistic staf working on a logo for beertokens
1174 2011-05-20 03:36:21 <ArtForzZz> well, the LD guys really asked for it
1175 2011-05-20 03:36:37 <Raccoon> 'dollar' implies only that it can be exchanged for goods or services
1176 2011-05-20 03:36:40 <kika_> what do you guys think, difficulty is increasing a lot, my hardware each day makes less btc per day mining
1177 2011-05-20 03:36:47 <Raccoon> and that's what those private currencies were trying to achieve
1178 2011-05-20 03:36:48 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1179 2011-05-20 03:36:52 <Optimo> get new hardware
1180 2011-05-20 03:36:57 <luke-jr> kika_: better join Eligius or shutdown
1181 2011-05-20 03:36:58 <kika_> will btc price regarding usd dollar will continue to go up ?
1182 2011-05-20 03:37:15 Netsniper has joined
1183 2011-05-20 03:37:19 <luke-jr> kika_: actually, I noticed a pattern. it goes down for 2 days, then up, down for 2, then up again
1184 2011-05-20 03:37:21 <kika_> luke-jr: why Eligius? you pay more than deepbit?
1185 2011-05-20 03:37:22 <ArtForzZz> kika_: who knows, mining is still more profitable than it was a month ago
1186 2011-05-20 03:37:25 <luke-jr> kika_: yes
1187 2011-05-20 03:37:35 <Optimo> luke-jr, yknow people hear about elgius but can only find godo info on the forum or so
1188 2011-05-20 03:37:39 <luke-jr> kika_: and Deepbit threatens the entire network
1189 2011-05-20 03:37:48 <kika_> yes deepbit is bad
1190 2011-05-20 03:37:55 <luke-jr> Optimo: not my fault people can't use Google
1191 2011-05-20 03:37:57 <kika_> i think its trying to get 50% of the network power
1192 2011-05-20 03:38:03 <kika_> i think people need to distribute
1193 2011-05-20 03:38:04 <kika_> to other pools
1194 2011-05-20 03:38:06 <ArtForzZz> <plug>btcguild</plug>
1195 2011-05-20 03:38:10 <kika_> otherwise people put the network at risk
1196 2011-05-20 03:38:16 * luke-jr unplugs ArtForzZz
1197 2011-05-20 03:38:18 <erbs> Ron Paul Dollars was brought down in the same Liberty Dollar raid - same company... the charge was: "Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original
1198 2011-05-20 03:38:18 <erbs> design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."
1199 2011-05-20 03:38:26 <Raccoon> the fed could just seize deepbit
1200 2011-05-20 03:38:40 <Optimo> luke-jr google results aren't as helpful as you might think. there's at least one low hurdle for someone who's never set up poclbm or equivallent
1201 2011-05-20 03:38:53 <luke-jr> Optimo: well, not much I can do about it
1202 2011-05-20 03:39:03 <kika_> luke-jr: Eligious pay per day?
1203 2011-05-20 03:39:19 <luke-jr> kika_: if you earn 1 BTC per day
1204 2011-05-20 03:39:20 <kika_> luke-jr: basically ill get btcs per day like deepbit? instant payout
1205 2011-05-20 03:39:28 <Optimo> luke-jr, buy eligi.us ?
1206 2011-05-20 03:39:37 <Raccoon> erbs: "intended" is vague. people just wanted to collect them.
1207 2011-05-20 03:39:37 <kika_> luke-jr: i usually earn 2 btc per day on deepbit
1208 2011-05-20 03:39:49 <luke-jr> Optimo: what's wrong with eligius.st?
1209 2011-05-20 03:40:00 <luke-jr> kika_: so probably twice a day then
1210 2011-05-20 03:40:02 <Raccoon> erbs: if they were smart, they would have had Canada coin for them. Canadian Mint does private contracts.
1211 2011-05-20 03:40:09 <kika_> luke-jr: so Eligious how much it will pay me for 600Mhash per day 24 hours per day ?
1212 2011-05-20 03:40:10 <Optimo> I never foudn that, I thikn I found something.luek-jr.org ?
1213 2011-05-20 03:40:15 <erbs> aye Raccoon
1214 2011-05-20 03:40:16 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 600000
1215 2011-05-20 03:40:17 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 2.47193540528 BTC per day and 0.102997308553 BTC per hour.
1216 2011-05-20 03:40:18 <luke-jr> kika_: ^
1217 2011-05-20 03:40:37 <kika_> luke-jr: how much btc eligious will pay per day for me to contribuite 600Mhash 24 hours per day
1218 2011-05-20 03:40:42 <Raccoon> erbs: then there would be a foreign soverign power to contend with
1219 2011-05-20 03:40:43 <Dek> lol
1220 2011-05-20 03:40:54 <dietnews> i think kika wants to know the difference in payout between eligious and deepbit
1221 2011-05-20 03:40:59 <Raccoon> erbs: it's not illegal to trade CAD or Pasos in the US. :)
1222 2011-05-20 03:41:02 <kika_> dietnews: exactly
1223 2011-05-20 03:41:04 <Optimo> ha eligi.us is available
1224 2011-05-20 03:41:17 <erbs> yeah i mean that law is pretty bad - its unconstitutional.. however you cant make metallic coins for use as currency...
1225 2011-05-20 03:41:30 <erbs> but you can make bills
1226 2011-05-20 03:41:40 <erbs> its only about coinage
1227 2011-05-20 03:41:40 <Raccoon> what about bitbills in card form
1228 2011-05-20 03:41:46 <Raccoon> would those be viewed as 'credit cards' by nature?
1229 2011-05-20 03:41:52 <sacarlson> erbs: korean coins are cool in USA they work in the laundry mat and only cost about .05$ each
1230 2011-05-20 03:41:56 <luke-jr> kika_: again, ,,(bc,gen 600000)
1231 2011-05-20 03:41:57 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 2.47193540528 BTC per day and 0.102997308553 BTC per hour.
1232 2011-05-20 03:41:57 <erbs> nice
1233 2011-05-20 03:42:22 <Raccoon> sacarlson: AND the koreans who run those laundry mats will probably appreciate it :)
1234 2011-05-20 03:42:39 EPiSKiNG has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1235 2011-05-20 03:42:49 <kika_> luke-jr: i see so it would be 0.2 btc more than deepbit per dya
1236 2011-05-20 03:43:52 <luke-jr> kika_: earnings are never perfectly consistent.
1237 2011-05-20 03:43:59 <erbs> but.. liberty dollar wasn't actually charged with minting coins.. the only charges they got were other laws about making coins / bills that resemble US coins of $0.05 and above etc
1238 2011-05-20 03:44:01 <luke-jr> it could be 0, it could be .4
1239 2011-05-20 03:44:05 <luke-jr> it could even be 1 if you're lucky
1240 2011-05-20 03:44:16 <kika_> so you guys think the btc usd price will go up as difficulty grows?
1241 2011-05-20 03:44:22 <luke-jr> kika_: Deepbit takes 3% of whatever you get; Eligius takes 0.0003%
1242 2011-05-20 03:44:33 <Raccoon> kika_, worth asking that in #bitcoin-otc
1243 2011-05-20 03:44:34 <ArtForzZz> kika_: other way around imo
1244 2011-05-20 03:44:44 <Raccoon> it's a strained argument.
1245 2011-05-20 03:45:05 bill_stickers has joined
1246 2011-05-20 03:45:08 <Raccoon> the best i can offer is "nobody knows which came first; the chicken or the egg. but nobody disputes that chickens come from eggs, and eggs come from chickens."
1247 2011-05-20 03:45:10 <ArtForzZz> whenever $/btc rises, difficulty growth picks up a lot a few days later
1248 2011-05-20 03:45:17 <ArtForzZz> Raccoon: theres graphs
1249 2011-05-20 03:45:56 <kika_> ArtForzZz: so basically you guys think the usd btc price will go up during this year?
1250 2011-05-20 03:46:05 <ArtForzZz> yep
1251 2011-05-20 03:46:13 <Raccoon> kika_: did you look at the mtgox graph yet?
1252 2011-05-20 03:46:20 has joined
1253 2011-05-20 03:46:23 <ArtForzZz> but probably slower than difficulty overall
1254 2011-05-20 03:46:34 <ArtForzZz> = on average, mining will get less profitable (as it should)
1255 2011-05-20 03:46:34 <kika_> Raccoon: yes
1256 2011-05-20 03:46:52 <kika_> ArtForzZz: weird, i need to pay 5000 usd in hardware
1257 2011-05-20 03:47:03 <ArtForzZz> ... so?
1258 2011-05-20 03:47:04 <kika_> ArtForzZz: my hard generates 1900 Mhash
1259 2011-05-20 03:47:14 <kika_> ArtForzZz: do you think it will pay back itself?
1260 2011-05-20 03:47:19 <ArtForzZz> you're doing it wrong!
1261 2011-05-20 03:47:30 <ArtForzZz> most people build rigs for <$1/Mhash
1262 2011-05-20 03:47:31 <sacarlson> Raccoon: not when a .05cent coin replaces a $0.25 one, you get you a discount
1263 2011-05-20 03:47:52 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1264 2011-05-20 03:48:05 <Raccoon> sacarlson: i was being facetious
1265 2011-05-20 03:48:34 LobsterMan has joined
1266 2011-05-20 03:48:34 LobsterMan has quit (Changing host)
1267 2011-05-20 03:48:34 LobsterMan has joined
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1269 2011-05-20 03:49:22 intractable has joined
1270 2011-05-20 03:49:24 <kika_> ArtForzZz: me wrong?
1271 2011-05-20 03:49:38 <dietnews> how often do payouts occur on eligius?
1272 2011-05-20 03:50:05 <erbs> every solstice
1273 2011-05-20 03:50:28 <dietnews> the wiki says "When a block is found, the miner is paid for that block immediately as a Generated transaction, but only if his total balance is over 1 BTC (to help the recipient avoid transaction fees)."
1274 2011-05-20 03:50:41 <erbs> eligius is cool
1275 2011-05-20 03:50:49 <dietnews> but im a little confused what that means
1276 2011-05-20 03:51:45 <Optimo> if your contributtions to a found block gained you more than 1, otherwise it rolls into the next one I think
1277 2011-05-20 03:52:10 <dietnews> ah okay
1278 2011-05-20 03:52:26 <dietnews> thats what i was wondering, if it tracked any sub 1btc gains
1279 2011-05-20 03:52:54 <Optimo> oh yeah, they all seem to use as many decminal places as possible
1280 2011-05-20 03:53:00 <Optimo> lol typo
1281 2011-05-20 03:53:06 <luke-jr> Optimo: eligi.us reg'd
1282 2011-05-20 03:53:15 <Optimo> nicely done
1283 2011-05-20 03:53:39 malnilion has joined
1284 2011-05-20 03:54:49 _Netsniper_ has joined
1285 2011-05-20 03:56:40 Aahzmundus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1286 2011-05-20 03:57:11 LobsterMan has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1287 2011-05-20 03:57:44 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.252.16.115|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1288 2011-05-20 03:57:51 <erbs> coinme
1289 2011-05-20 03:58:05 <Raccoon> US Patriot Act set to expire in 10 days... http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=question&id=518150625931
1290 2011-05-20 03:58:08 <Raccoon> oops
1291 2011-05-20 03:58:12 <erbs> good
1292 2011-05-20 03:59:31 phantomcircuit_ has joined
1293 2011-05-20 03:59:32 <XX01XX> I thought they extended that... is it upto expire again already?
1294 2011-05-20 03:59:36 alystair has joined
1295 2011-05-20 03:59:40 Rudycoin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1296 2011-05-20 03:59:55 <erbs> this is a good summary that goes into the main legal questions on bitcoin: http://www.quora.com/Is-Bitcoin-legal/answer/Corey-Recvlohe
1297 2011-05-20 04:00:19 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1298 2011-05-20 04:01:41 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1299 2011-05-20 04:01:48 Netsniper has joined
1300 2011-05-20 04:02:18 <erbs> http://infoproc.blogspot.com/
1301 2011-05-20 04:04:16 underscor has joined
1302 2011-05-20 04:04:33 _Netsniper_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1303 2011-05-20 04:05:15 n3t5pLi7 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1304 2011-05-20 04:05:20 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
1305 2011-05-20 04:05:45 <erbs> potato
1306 2011-05-20 04:06:16 <erbs> smoke crack (dont)
1307 2011-05-20 04:06:46 ForceDestroyer has joined
1308 2011-05-20 04:07:20 <erbs> i need coin man
1309 2011-05-20 04:07:24 <erbs> i joined eligius
1310 2011-05-20 04:07:30 <erbs> hopefully i can get some coin
1311 2011-05-20 04:09:08 jhulten has joined
1312 2011-05-20 04:10:17 blackguy has joined
1313 2011-05-20 04:10:27 <erbs> :-{{{}}}
1314 2011-05-20 04:10:27 Vandroiy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1315 2011-05-20 04:11:22 blackguy has quit (Client Quit)
1316 2011-05-20 04:12:32 genjix has joined
1317 2011-05-20 04:12:32 genjix has quit (Changing host)
1318 2011-05-20 04:12:32 genjix has joined
1319 2011-05-20 04:12:45 genjix has left ()
1320 2011-05-20 04:13:00 Nesetalis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1321 2011-05-20 04:13:30 Dek is now known as Dekbit
1322 2011-05-20 04:14:03 JSharp has joined
1323 2011-05-20 04:14:50 Dekbit is now known as Dek
1324 2011-05-20 04:14:59 Dek is now known as Dekbit
1325 2011-05-20 04:15:45 NOTAL has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
1326 2011-05-20 04:17:50 <erbs> coinme bro
1327 2011-05-20 04:18:23 <Optimo> what does that mean
1328 2011-05-20 04:19:34 <XX01XX> co in me bro
1329 2011-05-20 04:19:39 <erbs> im lookin for some coin
1330 2011-05-20 04:19:58 <Optimo> D0nTBuyB1tC0insFrOMTh35egent1m3n
1331 2011-05-20 04:20:21 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1332 2011-05-20 04:21:30 Moonies has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1333 2011-05-20 04:21:49 <erbs> http://www.merlinmann.com/better
1334 2011-05-20 04:22:01 Stellar has joined
1335 2011-05-20 04:22:36 <rhett__> i want to try out the script at the end https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
1336 2011-05-20 04:23:55 <erbs> oops i pasted the wrong link i mustve copied the wrong url
1337 2011-05-20 04:24:03 <erbs> weird
1338 2011-05-20 04:24:15 <Optimo> rhett__, interesting that you could further extend the processing
1339 2011-05-20 04:25:04 <erbs> penezio
1340 2011-05-20 04:25:07 gjs278 has joined
1341 2011-05-20 04:25:27 <rhett__> yes, i'd like to try it in practice
1342 2011-05-20 04:26:50 <erbs> im mining for coin bro
1343 2011-05-20 04:27:11 <erbs> when can i buy an ArtForzZz chip!
1344 2011-05-20 04:27:28 Incitatus has joined
1345 2011-05-20 04:28:46 Nesetalis has joined
1346 2011-05-20 04:29:09 caedes has joined
1347 2011-05-20 04:30:34 gsathya has joined
1348 2011-05-20 04:33:12 intractable is now known as kluge
1349 2011-05-20 04:34:07 univers has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1350 2011-05-20 04:38:04 davex__ has joined
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1352 2011-05-20 04:40:59 sethsethseth____ has joined
1353 2011-05-20 04:41:52 vorlov_ has joined
1354 2011-05-20 04:42:58 vorlov has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1355 2011-05-20 04:42:58 vorlov_ is now known as vorlov
1356 2011-05-20 04:46:26 <Optimo> so what are these 'strange transactions' on the blockexplorer?
1357 2011-05-20 04:46:27 davex__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1358 2011-05-20 04:47:39 eao_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1359 2011-05-20 04:48:22 <jgarzik> Optimo: pre-history
1360 2011-05-20 04:48:58 phantomcircuit_ is now known as phantomcircuit
1361 2011-05-20 04:49:35 <erbs> ultravag
1362 2011-05-20 04:49:59 <Optimo> what else does having that strangeness mean for those addresses?
1363 2011-05-20 04:50:05 <Optimo> are they still reusable after time?
1364 2011-05-20 04:53:35 hw1979 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1365 2011-05-20 04:54:31 <erbs> sprechen sie coins?
1366 2011-05-20 04:57:37 dissipate has joined
1367 2011-05-20 04:57:37 dissipate has quit (Changing host)
1368 2011-05-20 04:57:37 dissipate has joined
1369 2011-05-20 05:02:19 <erbs> nedeed a bitcoin t-shirt
1370 2011-05-20 05:02:25 <erbs> so i can prove im the coinmaster
1371 2011-05-20 05:02:29 hw1979 has joined
1372 2011-05-20 05:03:14 <Optimo> someone was selling them for btc
1373 2011-05-20 05:03:55 bill_stickers has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1374 2011-05-20 05:05:05 LobsterMan has joined
1375 2011-05-20 05:05:47 <erbs> so EvanR scammed the scammer?
1376 2011-05-20 05:05:52 <erbs> sounds a bit vigilante
1377 2011-05-20 05:06:37 <erbs> he and this other guy could have posted this elaborate story as a way to just scam robthenob
1378 2011-05-20 05:07:28 <erbs> as of now evanr agreed to buy coins from him but never paid
1379 2011-05-20 05:07:38 <rhett__> i'd like to test some of these script transactions, but I don't have bitcoins on this computer. can someone send me test-network bitcoins?
1380 2011-05-20 05:07:43 <erbs> because he claimed some logs gave him the right to not pay..
1381 2011-05-20 05:07:54 <rhett__> can i just generate test bitcoins easily?
1382 2011-05-20 05:07:56 <Optimo> you guys know if blockexplorer.com is using something like mod_rewrite>?
1383 2011-05-20 05:08:05 <erbs> probably optimo
1384 2011-05-20 05:08:25 <Optimo> rhett you can get 0.02 from the faucet once
1385 2011-05-20 05:09:10 <erbs> evanr agreed to buy 30btc from robthenob but never paid
1386 2011-05-20 05:09:12 <erbs> interesting
1387 2011-05-20 05:09:25 hw1979 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1388 2011-05-20 05:09:32 <rhett__> you can get 0.02 test bitcoins or real ones?
1389 2011-05-20 05:09:35 <erbs> he didn't pay because he claimed some irc log gave him the right to not pay
1390 2011-05-20 05:09:57 <Optimo> rhett__, oh not sure about 'test' coins
1391 2011-05-20 05:10:38 <rhett__> even with 0.02, i can split them to 8 decimal places, so that should be fine for testing, right?
1392 2011-05-20 05:10:55 <rhett__> can I run 100 clients on a single IP?
1393 2011-05-20 05:11:09 wolfspraul has joined
1394 2011-05-20 05:11:15 <Optimo> all the smart people are busy or tired ;p
1395 2011-05-20 05:11:17 <Raccoon> Hey
1396 2011-05-20 05:11:33 <EvanR> erbs: was wondering when someone was going to bring that up
1397 2011-05-20 05:11:38 <Raccoon> would someone please design a favicon for MagicalTux?
1398 2011-05-20 05:11:45 miningold has joined
1399 2011-05-20 05:11:51 <Raccoon> there are too many bitcoin sites with no favicon
1400 2011-05-20 05:12:13 <erbs> it seems like the ppl robthenob supposedly scammed were done in by their own greed.. they thought they were buying bitcoin at well below the market price
1401 2011-05-20 05:12:41 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1402 2011-05-20 05:13:04 <dissipate> who got scammed??
1403 2011-05-20 05:13:07 <EvanR> erbs: scottlad (rob) didnt do much to defend himself
1404 2011-05-20 05:13:22 <rhett__> oh no more bitcoin faucet
1405 2011-05-20 05:13:24 <EvanR> dissipate: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9045
1406 2011-05-20 05:13:37 <Optimo> ~90 thousand new coins by next difficulty
1407 2011-05-20 05:13:42 <Optimo> err 900 thousand
1408 2011-05-20 05:13:49 <Optimo> more in circulation
1409 2011-05-20 05:15:04 <Optimo> oh that is almost a regular amount..doh
1410 2011-05-20 05:15:08 <Optimo> nvrmind
1411 2011-05-20 05:15:29 <dissipate> 10 bitcoins? not a huge scam
1412 2011-05-20 05:15:32 <EvanR> 30
1413 2011-05-20 05:15:43 <Raccoon> when did bitcoin faucet go away?
1414 2011-05-20 05:15:52 <Optimo> it runs dry, not 'gone'
1415 2011-05-20 05:16:04 <Raccoon> really?
1416 2011-05-20 05:16:11 <EvanR> when it runs dry it starts spewing php errors
1417 2011-05-20 05:16:13 <Raccoon> it had 150 BTC earlier today
1418 2011-05-20 05:16:21 <Raccoon> that's fuckin fast
1419 2011-05-20 05:16:37 <Raccoon> that's 7500 drips today
1420 2011-05-20 05:16:40 <rhett__> test faucet will give me 5
1421 2011-05-20 05:17:06 <retinal> http://google.com/search?q=cache:http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
1422 2011-05-20 05:17:08 <erbs> EvanR: what proof is there that PRIVATE was actually scammed.. besides an unverifiable private msg log
1423 2011-05-20 05:17:15 <retinal> 150 earlier today, eh?
1424 2011-05-20 05:17:24 <Raccoon> today or yesterday
1425 2011-05-20 05:17:35 <retinal> http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/recent_sends works, still
1426 2011-05-20 05:17:50 <EvanR> erbs: gjs278 wake up
1427 2011-05-20 05:17:58 <erbs> ?
1428 2011-05-20 05:18:01 Fnar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1429 2011-05-20 05:18:02 ar4s has joined
1430 2011-05-20 05:18:11 <EvanR> erbs: scottlad was obviously evading a ban and using an alias
1431 2011-05-20 05:18:17 hw1979 has joined
1432 2011-05-20 05:18:28 <EvanR> he has over -50 rating on otc, and has scammed people before
1433 2011-05-20 05:18:31 <erbs> so logging into irc is a crime?
1434 2011-05-20 05:18:44 <retinal> ban evasion is
1435 2011-05-20 05:18:45 <erbs> he claims not to be scottlad
1436 2011-05-20 05:18:54 <erbs> retinal: its not illegal
1437 2011-05-20 05:18:55 <EvanR> he has the same host
1438 2011-05-20 05:19:01 <EvanR> illegal?
1439 2011-05-20 05:19:01 <kluge> ban evasion is a crime? :)
1440 2011-05-20 05:19:07 <EvanR> im not talking about any particular laws
1441 2011-05-20 05:19:07 <retinal> it's against the IRC network policy
1442 2011-05-20 05:19:09 <luke-jr> kluge: technically, yes
1443 2011-05-20 05:19:11 <retinal> a crime of sorts
1444 2011-05-20 05:19:20 <luke-jr> unauthorized access to a computer network
1445 2011-05-20 05:19:24 <luke-jr> is criminal in many jurisdictions
1446 2011-05-20 05:19:26 <Optimo> using a guise
1447 2011-05-20 05:19:33 <erbs> his access was authorized
1448 2011-05-20 05:19:41 <erbs> the server let him on
1449 2011-05-20 05:19:43 <kluge> luke-jr, I see
1450 2011-05-20 05:19:43 <luke-jr> no, a ban is the opposite of authorized
1451 2011-05-20 05:19:44 <EvanR> this is bitcoin, hes in nigeria, i dont give a fuck what he thinks hes breaking and following
1452 2011-05-20 05:19:46 <kluge> that's kind of silly though
1453 2011-05-20 05:20:00 <erbs> luke-jr: the chanops dont own the network
1454 2011-05-20 05:20:04 <luke-jr> erbs: that's like saying if I crack WEP, it's authorized because the access point lets me in
1455 2011-05-20 05:20:21 <EvanR> hes guilty of fraud
1456 2011-05-20 05:20:21 <erbs> no its like saying you have no authority to authorize anyone on a network you don't own :)
1457 2011-05-20 05:20:22 <luke-jr> erbs: network policy enforces channel bans, as retinal said
1458 2011-05-20 05:20:47 <erbs> it doesn't say hes banned from the network or channel
1459 2011-05-20 05:20:59 <EvanR> he is now
1460 2011-05-20 05:21:19 <erbs> hes not klined, therefore hes still permitted on freenode
1461 2011-05-20 05:21:36 <EvanR> hes banned from at least two bitcoin channels now
1462 2011-05-20 05:21:45 <luke-jr> erbs: prosecution always follows actual infringement
1463 2011-05-20 05:21:53 <luke-jr> err
1464 2011-05-20 05:22:03 <erbs> nothing was infringed.. hes still allowed to use freenode
1465 2011-05-20 05:22:05 <luke-jr> not always follows, but ⦠when it happens, it's after the infringement
1466 2011-05-20 05:22:09 <luke-jr> never before or at the same time
1467 2011-05-20 05:22:11 <EvanR> to give him the remote benefit of the doubt i asked him for irc logs that refute what hes accused of
1468 2011-05-20 05:22:19 <EvanR> he didnt provide any
1469 2011-05-20 05:22:28 <erbs> absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
1470 2011-05-20 05:22:37 <EvanR> i have evidence
1471 2011-05-20 05:22:45 <erbs> it seems like one guy's word against another
1472 2011-05-20 05:22:53 <EvanR> three guys word over one
1473 2011-05-20 05:22:59 Fnar has joined
1474 2011-05-20 05:23:02 <EvanR> four if you include reese
1475 2011-05-20 05:23:09 <erbs> i only saw the log from PRIVATE..
1476 2011-05-20 05:23:16 <EvanR> i could find others who have dealt with scottlad and skizza1
1477 2011-05-20 05:23:18 <erbs> the other logs were people trying to scamback this guy
1478 2011-05-20 05:23:47 <erbs> the only evidence thats not being disputed is you agreed to buy 30btc from the guy, but didn't pay after receiving the goods
1479 2011-05-20 05:24:02 <EvanR> why dont you dispute that too?
1480 2011-05-20 05:24:09 karmaGfa1 has joined
1481 2011-05-20 05:24:13 <karmaGfa1> hello
1482 2011-05-20 05:24:26 karmaGfa1 is now known as green-coder
1483 2011-05-20 05:24:50 Sedra has joined
1484 2011-05-20 05:24:58 trace_busta_bust has joined
1485 2011-05-20 05:24:59 <green-coder> I recently discovered bitcoin
1486 2011-05-20 05:25:30 <green-coder> I would like to know .. how to compare it with the ripple pay system ?
1487 2011-05-20 05:25:40 <erbs> <gjs278> i told him I'd buy the 30 coins for $180, I'm not going to pay this motherfucker
1488 2011-05-20 05:26:16 <green-coder> gjs278: nice comment. that's the kind of things that doesn't happen in ripple pay.
1489 2011-05-20 05:26:26 <EvanR> gjs278 will be around to defend himself against whatever youre accusing him of
1490 2011-05-20 05:26:35 <erbs> thats a quote directly from the log
1491 2011-05-20 05:26:39 <erbs> who is gjs278 exactly?
1492 2011-05-20 05:26:59 <EvanR> in context, hes talking about getting 10+20 stolen btc back
1493 2011-05-20 05:27:11 <green-coder> I see
1494 2011-05-20 05:27:12 <erbs> (alledgedly stolen)
1495 2011-05-20 05:27:16 <EvanR> ;;getrating gjs278
1496 2011-05-20 05:27:16 <gribble> Error: This user has not yet been rated.
1497 2011-05-20 05:27:18 has joined
1498 2011-05-20 05:27:35 <erbs> but instead of him offering to buy the coins, it was you who did it... and then didn't pay him
1499 2011-05-20 05:27:42 Sedra- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1500 2011-05-20 05:27:57 <green-coder> well .. 'stolen' doesn't exist in the ripple pay, unless you are not repaying your debts to your own friends.
1501 2011-05-20 05:28:03 <EvanR> first of all, lets get some things straight
1502 2011-05-20 05:28:13 <erbs> seems like you're exacting your own brand of vigilante justice, based on nothing more than some guy's unverified log. for all you know "PRIVATE" could be scamming you to get free coins
1503 2011-05-20 05:28:20 <EvanR> scottlad/robthenob frauded two people and got a total of 30 bitcoins
1504 2011-05-20 05:28:40 <EvanR> i returned 20 bitcoins to one of them
1505 2011-05-20 05:28:45 <EvanR> the other guy will be back tomorrow
1506 2011-05-20 05:28:55 <erbs> the second person was trying to scam robthenob by sending him 10 coins (so that he'd try to sell back 30)...
1507 2011-05-20 05:28:55 <EvanR> scottlad is a known scammer
1508 2011-05-20 05:28:57 <BlueMatt> nanotube already banned him
1509 2011-05-20 05:29:00 <EvanR> next stage
1510 2011-05-20 05:29:04 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-dev Banlist: Fri May 20 04:24:49 *!~rob@*.zone*.bethere.co.uk nanotube!~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube
1511 2011-05-20 05:29:18 <EvanR> if robthenob actually has a problem, he should be defending himself
1512 2011-05-20 05:29:20 <EvanR> hes not
1513 2011-05-20 05:29:24 <EvanR> the end
1514 2011-05-20 05:29:43 <erbs> EvanR: is it possible PRIVATE and gjs278 made up this story to scam you into getting free coins for them?
1515 2011-05-20 05:29:54 hw1979 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1516 2011-05-20 05:29:56 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1517 2011-05-20 05:29:57 <erbs> gjs278 is unrated..
1518 2011-05-20 05:30:01 <erbs> PRIVATE is unknown
1519 2011-05-20 05:30:11 <gjs278> I have traded with BitMark and jackrabbit
1520 2011-05-20 05:30:12 <EvanR> it is possible taken in a vacuum
1521 2011-05-20 05:30:29 <gjs278> jackrabbit has posted me in honest traders thread, bitmark you'd have to verify in person
1522 2011-05-20 05:30:37 <green-coder> so ... how do bitcoins and ripple pay systems compare ?
1523 2011-05-20 05:30:55 <BlueMatt> they can be used in conjunction
1524 2011-05-20 05:31:01 <erbs> the thing is, PRIVATE had every opportunity to use an escrow.. but he didn't.. so he must've accepted the risk of not getting paid or he didn't care (or he's making up the whole thing in order to scam you)
1525 2011-05-20 05:31:03 <BlueMatt> one is a currency one is a payment system
1526 2011-05-20 05:31:23 <EvanR> yeah they both accepted risk stupidly and almost got screwed
1527 2011-05-20 05:31:39 <gjs278> I have never had any issue with the community trading before this
1528 2011-05-20 05:31:41 <erbs> i really hope that you were returning stolen currency, and if PRIVATE's log is real then he was scammed and robthenob needs to pay him or return the coins
1529 2011-05-20 05:31:56 <EvanR> rob could have provided a log
1530 2011-05-20 05:32:04 <BlueMatt> wtf happened?
1531 2011-05-20 05:32:05 <EvanR> but he didnt have one fabricated in time
1532 2011-05-20 05:32:18 Netsniper has joined
1533 2011-05-20 05:32:24 <EvanR> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9045
1534 2011-05-20 05:32:47 <BlueMatt> g2g anyway, Ill read that when I get back
1535 2011-05-20 05:32:52 <EvanR> erbs: robthenob had no intention of paying anyone
1536 2011-05-20 05:33:02 <erbs> why should he have to prove it to you? not providing a log isn't proof of guilt or wrongdoing. maybe his private info is in the log and he doesn't want someone who just offered to buy coin but didn't pay to get his personal details?
1537 2011-05-20 05:33:14 sytse has joined
1538 2011-05-20 05:33:22 <EvanR> the other logs are proof of guilt
1539 2011-05-20 05:33:30 <EvanR> dont ignore evidence you dont like
1540 2011-05-20 05:33:48 <EvanR> are you just contrarian
1541 2011-05-20 05:33:56 <erbs> its just a bunch of PMs which no one can verify
1542 2011-05-20 05:34:03 oneman has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1543 2011-05-20 05:34:05 <EvanR> im verifying them
1544 2011-05-20 05:34:11 Optimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1545 2011-05-20 05:34:23 hw1979 has joined
1546 2011-05-20 05:34:24 <erbs> how do you know there was an agreement, without a signed contract or witnesses?
1547 2011-05-20 05:34:31 <gjs278> erbs
1548 2011-05-20 05:34:31 <erbs> its just one guys word
1549 2011-05-20 05:34:36 <Diablo-D3> dude
1550 2011-05-20 05:34:40 <Diablo-D3> judge judy would rape you
1551 2011-05-20 05:34:41 Optimo has joined
1552 2011-05-20 05:34:41 <EvanR> its called epistemology
1553 2011-05-20 05:34:43 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-240-194-93.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1554 2011-05-20 05:34:54 <Diablo-D3> an old jewish woman, holding you down and forcing herself on you
1555 2011-05-20 05:34:56 <green-coder> BlueMatt: true, but there should be both related, isn't it ?
1556 2011-05-20 05:34:57 <gjs278> he bought 20 coins at $150 that was not paid to me
1557 2011-05-20 05:34:59 <Diablo-D3> and in your shame, you would enjoy it
1558 2011-05-20 05:35:02 <green-coder> there is no money without payment
1559 2011-05-20 05:35:02 <gjs278> he bought 10 from someone else
1560 2011-05-20 05:35:02 <phantomcircuit> EvanR, ignore him
1561 2011-05-20 05:35:08 <gjs278> 5 minutes later, he's selling 30 coins at 180
1562 2011-05-20 05:35:28 <erbs> look you're assuming hes guilty based on one person's unverifiable accusation
1563 2011-05-20 05:35:40 <gjs278> two
1564 2011-05-20 05:35:44 <erbs> theres not a shred of independent evidence
1565 2011-05-20 05:35:45 <EvanR> four
1566 2011-05-20 05:35:46 <phantomcircuit> EvanR, who is it?
1567 2011-05-20 05:35:46 <EvanR> or more
1568 2011-05-20 05:35:47 <green-coder> BlueMatt: but I think you quite answer my question. Thank you.
1569 2011-05-20 05:35:47 <gjs278> plus scottlad's rating
1570 2011-05-20 05:35:51 <EvanR> phantomcircuit: erbs
1571 2011-05-20 05:35:53 toffoo has quit ()
1572 2011-05-20 05:35:55 <gjs278> he's nearly negative 11 on ratings
1573 2011-05-20 05:36:01 <phantomcircuit> EvanR, yeah he's obviously a troll/scammer
1574 2011-05-20 05:36:14 <phantomcircuit> EvanR, and im 90% sure he hacked the shell he's coming from
1575 2011-05-20 05:36:19 <EvanR> ah
1576 2011-05-20 05:36:20 <erbs> <gjs278> i told him I'd buy the 30 coins for $180, I'm not going to pay this motherfucker <-- gjs278, that was your quote. so im not sure your statements are very credible, given that you admit you made an agreement you had no intention to honor!
1577 2011-05-20 05:36:31 <EvanR> i checked on erbs's hostname
1578 2011-05-20 05:36:33 <gjs278> I did have no intention of honoring the agreement
1579 2011-05-20 05:36:39 <EvanR> guess he could be scottlad
1580 2011-05-20 05:36:43 <gjs278> he stole 20 from me and 10 from junk
1581 2011-05-20 05:36:49 <gjs278> that's where the 30 came from
1582 2011-05-20 05:36:52 <erbs> junk?
1583 2011-05-20 05:36:56 <gjs278> er
1584 2011-05-20 05:37:08 <gjs278> PRIVATE
1585 2011-05-20 05:37:33 <erbs> but you didn't go ahead with your plan to do the fake buy
1586 2011-05-20 05:37:40 <EvanR> consider erbs to be scottlad/scottlad's defense, or both
1587 2011-05-20 05:37:48 <erbs> EvanR did that for you - he agreed to buy the coin, but didn't pay
1588 2011-05-20 05:37:53 <gjs278> yes
1589 2011-05-20 05:37:55 <gjs278> that is correct
1590 2011-05-20 05:38:02 <Optimo> be like the eliptical curve \_
1591 2011-05-20 05:38:56 <green-coder> I still don't understand what bitcoins represent, except some wasted CPU resources.
1592 2011-05-20 05:38:59 <EvanR> i wonder if farzong and erbs have wild homosexual sex sometimes
1593 2011-05-20 05:39:01 <erbs> http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_Contract <-- without something like this, or a public log, or independent witnesses, theres no reason to give PRIVATE's claim any credence. he couldve just made the whole thing up
1594 2011-05-20 05:39:15 <EvanR> ok that was out of line
1595 2011-05-20 05:39:21 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, it's an artificially scarce resource
1596 2011-05-20 05:39:33 <gjs278> erbs, the paypal account he told me to request payment from after I had sent
1597 2011-05-20 05:39:35 <gjs278> was not verified
1598 2011-05-20 05:39:40 <erbs> the only thing we do know for sure is gjs278 and EvanR conspired to enter into an agreement that they had no intention to honor
1599 2011-05-20 05:39:42 <green-coder> and what makes people be attracted to use this resource ?
1600 2011-05-20 05:39:47 <gjs278> lol
1601 2011-05-20 05:39:59 <EvanR> /join #bitcoin-politics
1602 2011-05-20 05:39:59 <Diablo-D3> so wait
1603 2011-05-20 05:40:00 <Diablo-D3> what/
1604 2011-05-20 05:40:04 <gjs278> erbs this is pretty easy to verify
1605 2011-05-20 05:40:05 <Diablo-D3> are you two being fucktards?
1606 2011-05-20 05:40:15 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, that other people are willing to accept it for use
1607 2011-05-20 05:40:17 <gjs278> ask scottlad for the paypal transaction
1608 2011-05-20 05:40:20 <gjs278> he won't be able to provide one
1609 2011-05-20 05:40:33 <green-coder> why ?
1610 2011-05-20 05:40:40 <erbs> robthenob quit because EvanR refused to pay him for 30 btc
1611 2011-05-20 05:40:48 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, the hardest part of any exchange medium is getting other people to accept that it has value, this has already happened with bitcoin
1612 2011-05-20 05:40:53 <erbs> claiming some kind of vigilante privilege to break his agreement
1613 2011-05-20 05:40:56 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, why do you accept dollars?
1614 2011-05-20 05:41:03 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, because other people do
1615 2011-05-20 05:41:08 <green-coder> I don't accept dollars
1616 2011-05-20 05:41:18 <green-coder> but yes.
1617 2011-05-20 05:41:18 <gjs278> I get paid in honeycombs
1618 2011-05-20 05:41:50 <erbs> i hope whoever got scammed actually did get their money back..
1619 2011-05-20 05:42:01 <green-coder> it seems that bitcoin is just a way of changing the money.
1620 2011-05-20 05:42:06 <gjs278> it happened exactly that way
1621 2011-05-20 05:42:09 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, the point stands for what ever government backed currency you do accept
1622 2011-05-20 05:42:11 rtulio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1623 2011-05-20 05:42:16 <EvanR> erbs: thanks for the FUD
1624 2011-05-20 05:42:25 <green-coder> I still prefer the ripple pay system as it is really a friend-to-friend approach.
1625 2011-05-20 05:42:29 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * rbbcd628 / (2 files in 2 dirs): Added Dustin's recommended changes for -z in the kernel - http://bit.ly/k2VjRf
1626 2011-05-20 05:42:55 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, yeah except it doesn't actually work
1627 2011-05-20 05:42:56 <EvanR> green-coder: so like distributed IOUs
1628 2011-05-20 05:43:07 <green-coder> why ?
1629 2011-05-20 05:43:09 <EvanR> but what exactly do you IOU?
1630 2011-05-20 05:43:11 toffoo has joined
1631 2011-05-20 05:43:19 <EvanR> dollars?
1632 2011-05-20 05:43:20 <erbs> no FUD at all
1633 2011-05-20 05:43:24 larsivi has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1634 2011-05-20 05:43:27 <green-coder> the IOU is the oldest system even used
1635 2011-05-20 05:43:40 <erbs> you appropriated this guy's loot on the unverifiable accusation of a person with 0 rating
1636 2011-05-20 05:43:41 <green-coder> the ripple pay system only formalized it.
1637 2011-05-20 05:43:58 <erbs> it looks like you can be manipulated into doing anything based on 0 evidence
1638 2011-05-20 05:44:37 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, i assume you mean ripple pay in general and not ripplepay.com
1639 2011-05-20 05:44:39 bitcoiner_ has joined
1640 2011-05-20 05:44:52 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: yes
1641 2011-05-20 05:45:03 <gjs278> erbs I don't see why you trust the bot so much
1642 2011-05-20 05:45:14 <gjs278> anyone can fake a positive rating on it
1643 2011-05-20 05:45:28 <erbs> i dont trust the claims of either party in this case, since neither has provided any verifiable evidence
1644 2011-05-20 05:45:34 <EvanR> if you trust the bot so much, check this out. scottlad -50, EvanR +50
1645 2011-05-20 05:45:37 <erbs> its a he-said/she-said
1646 2011-05-20 05:45:38 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, simply there is an infinite quantity of ripple cash
1647 2011-05-20 05:45:44 shellhead has joined
1648 2011-05-20 05:45:56 <green-coder> in ripple, there is no chash, there is dept
1649 2011-05-20 05:45:59 <gjs278> erbs you can follow the transactions and ask him for a paypal receipt
1650 2011-05-20 05:46:05 <erbs> EvanR: it seems you think a high rating gives you license to do whatever you please
1651 2011-05-20 05:46:05 <green-coder> -h
1652 2011-05-20 05:46:07 <gjs278> which he won't have because the account used was not verified
1653 2011-05-20 05:46:09 bitcoiner_ has left ()
1654 2011-05-20 05:46:18 <EvanR> erbs: it just makes me right
1655 2011-05-20 05:46:28 <erbs> no it doesn't
1656 2011-05-20 05:46:33 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, i promise anybody and everybody i meet that ill do something for them, they in turn use that to get promises etc etc, but how does someone who is probably no where near me at this point actually go about collecting?
1657 2011-05-20 05:46:41 <erbs> ratings are meaningless - facts are what matter
1658 2011-05-20 05:46:42 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, the reality is that they dont, ever
1659 2011-05-20 05:46:51 <gjs278> okay
1660 2011-05-20 05:46:55 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, thus ripple systems basically lead to infinite inflation :P
1661 2011-05-20 05:46:58 <gjs278> so then why do you bring up that I have zero rating
1662 2011-05-20 05:46:59 <EvanR> erbs: just pay gjs278 and he will give you those coins
1663 2011-05-20 05:47:01 <gjs278> if it is meaningless
1664 2011-05-20 05:47:13 <green-coder> I am developping a friend-to-friend platform, and in the long run, I will implement the ripple system on the top of it. What would make me change my mind to use bitcoin instead ?
1665 2011-05-20 05:47:37 <green-coder> .. hmm
1666 2011-05-20 05:47:48 <erbs> gjs278: its not central to the argument, that is true
1667 2011-05-20 05:48:02 <erbs> but it demolishes EvanR's claim to be acting judiciously
1668 2011-05-20 05:48:20 <erbs> he claims ratings matter - but he took the word of a person with 0 rating
1669 2011-05-20 05:48:22 <EvanR> central: scottlad is a scammer and someone reported scottlad scammed them, course of action obvious
1670 2011-05-20 05:48:30 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: there is a smart way to make dept relationships update without local changes for intermediates.
1671 2011-05-20 05:48:40 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, ripple systems only work if nobody ever tries to cash out of the system, the promises turn into fiat currency, except without a central authority to regulate supply you end up with an endless supply of worthless promises, and worse little to no way to tell the difference between worthless promises and valuable ones
1672 2011-05-20 05:48:50 <green-coder> it is described in one of the videos of riiple pay
1673 2011-05-20 05:49:15 <erbs> EvanR: none of those claims would be admissable in any court or arbitration. its one guys word (who you trust because you have a report with him) against anothers
1674 2011-05-20 05:49:21 <EvanR> i dont see why we should all be in debt as a requisit to trade
1675 2011-05-20 05:49:29 <gjs278> erbs no, because the defense is easy
1676 2011-05-20 05:49:32 <gjs278> I didnt get paid on paypal
1677 2011-05-20 05:49:33 miningold has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1678 2011-05-20 05:49:38 <erbs> you seem to be carrying out vigilante justice based on a gut feel of who you think is more credible
1679 2011-05-20 05:49:42 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: if people limit their dept to people they trust they can refound them, then it can work.
1680 2011-05-20 05:49:43 <XX01XX> /join #bitcoin-arbitration
1681 2011-05-20 05:49:44 <erbs> rather than any proof
1682 2011-05-20 05:49:50 <gjs278> erbs I have plenty of proof
1683 2011-05-20 05:49:59 <gjs278> you can see the coins entering his account on blockexplorer
1684 2011-05-20 05:50:00 <EvanR> erbs: scottlad is a scammer, thats not a guy feeling
1685 2011-05-20 05:50:04 <gjs278> and my paypal account never getting paid
1686 2011-05-20 05:50:09 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, i assume you mean debt
1687 2011-05-20 05:50:13 <EvanR> gut
1688 2011-05-20 05:50:26 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: and when people want to cash out, they can ask their friends to pay their debts too.
1689 2011-05-20 05:50:51 <EvanR> phantomcircuit: so its like a distributed cash loan system, it uses other currency as the actual medium of exchange?
1690 2011-05-20 05:51:10 <green-coder> yes, I mean debt
1691 2011-05-20 05:51:20 <erbs> lets say bitcoins were USD.. robthenob could sue evanr for fraudulent dealing..
1692 2011-05-20 05:51:31 <EvanR> you can sue over bitcoins
1693 2011-05-20 05:51:36 <EvanR> go ahead and try
1694 2011-05-20 05:51:43 <EvanR> dont let that stop you
1695 2011-05-20 05:51:52 <phantomcircuit> EvanR, yeah that's how a ripple system works
1696 2011-05-20 05:51:52 <erbs> nah, since neither party is licensed to deal in securities :)
1697 2011-05-20 05:52:00 <EvanR> fuck you erbs
1698 2011-05-20 05:52:07 <phantomcircuit> EvanR, i promise you something and you promise my promise to someone else
1699 2011-05-20 05:52:13 <EvanR> phantomcircuit: ah
1700 2011-05-20 05:52:15 <erbs> ok vigilante guy
1701 2011-05-20 05:52:19 <EvanR> very bureacratic
1702 2011-05-20 05:52:22 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, no economy can function if you only interact with people you 100% trust
1703 2011-05-20 05:52:51 <erbs> but as i said, under any legal system, robthenob has a successful criminal case against EvanR
1704 2011-05-20 05:52:53 <erbs> with damages
1705 2011-05-20 05:53:00 <erbs> EvanR has no case against robthenob
1706 2011-05-20 05:53:04 <EvanR> not in any legal system
1707 2011-05-20 05:53:06 <green-coder> more generally, friend-to-friend network work that way.
1708 2011-05-20 05:53:11 <erbs> despite a gut feeling that one guy is shadier than the other
1709 2011-05-20 05:53:22 <gjs278> erbs
1710 2011-05-20 05:53:25 <gjs278> I do have a case though
1711 2011-05-20 05:53:27 <green-coder> I lend money to friends sometimes, and they always all paid it back.
1712 2011-05-20 05:53:32 <gjs278> I was not paid through paypal
1713 2011-05-20 05:54:00 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, sure and a lot of business works on a contact network, but you cant usea contact network to buy coffee or webhosting the overhead is just ridiculous
1714 2011-05-20 05:54:03 <erbs> <gjs278> i told him I'd buy the 30 coins for $180, I'm not going to pay this motherfucker <-- this would be enough to undermine the credibility of any claim you make gjs278 - so you need another witness
1715 2011-05-20 05:54:19 <gjs278> no
1716 2011-05-20 05:54:19 <EvanR> gjs278: phantomcircuit says hes probably a shell, i say its scottlad. but thing is he has actual ability to type. so theres actually at least two of them, the fast talkers for scams, and the FUD law type
1717 2011-05-20 05:54:27 <gjs278> I wouldn't need another witness for that
1718 2011-05-20 05:54:31 <gjs278> the documents alone would support me
1719 2011-05-20 05:54:56 <green-coder> I don't see where is the overhead
1720 2011-05-20 05:55:02 <erbs> well you and EvanR admit to colluding to scam robthenob
1721 2011-05-20 05:55:08 <erbs> what isnt provable is that he ever did anything to you
1722 2011-05-20 05:55:17 <gjs278> lol yes it is
1723 2011-05-20 05:55:22 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, overhead is in calculating how much you trust any one obligation to be redeemable
1724 2011-05-20 05:55:30 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, let me put this another way
1725 2011-05-20 05:55:38 <EvanR> erbs: it is possible to ignore any evidence you want
1726 2011-05-20 05:55:38 <green-coder> your computer can do it for you.
1727 2011-05-20 05:55:43 <erbs> all that evan posted was one guy's private log - which could easily be faked
1728 2011-05-20 05:55:53 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, no actually computers suck at doing that
1729 2011-05-20 05:55:54 <EvanR> all records can be faked
1730 2011-05-20 05:55:58 <green-coder> he can find a chain of trust between you and another individual or organism
1731 2011-05-20 05:56:03 <gjs278> erbs you're ignoring that robthenob cannot produce a paypal receipt for paying me
1732 2011-05-20 05:56:07 shellhead has left ()
1733 2011-05-20 05:56:13 <gjs278> because he didnt, and his account isnt verified
1734 2011-05-20 05:56:17 <gjs278> so he cant send money
1735 2011-05-20 05:56:23 <green-coder> linked-in is using the theory of the small worlds to find such chains
1736 2011-05-20 05:56:24 <erbs> not credibly - he had a reason to potentially fake logs - to get free coin. an independent witness has no financial interest in it
1737 2011-05-20 05:56:34 <gjs278> you can trace the coins though
1738 2011-05-20 05:56:38 <gjs278> they come from my address
1739 2011-05-20 05:56:39 <gjs278> to rob
1740 2011-05-20 05:56:40 <erbs> gjs278 - he doesn't have to produce anything to the person who scammed him!
1741 2011-05-20 05:56:49 <EvanR> erbs: i am an independent witness
1742 2011-05-20 05:56:52 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, a ripple system is actually the basis of modern business, networks of trusted friends work to find other people whom they can trust, but trying to buy anything less than a car with that network is just plain stupid
1743 2011-05-20 05:56:54 <EvanR> i have no financial interest
1744 2011-05-20 05:56:59 <gjs278> erbs what would you accept as evidence
1745 2011-05-20 05:57:04 <erbs> EvanR: you witnessed the agreement between robthenob and PRIVATE ?
1746 2011-05-20 05:57:13 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1747 2011-05-20 05:57:31 <erbs> gjs278: a digitally signed agreement, a public log, independent witnesses, verifiable receipts etc
1748 2011-05-20 05:57:38 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: I beleive that for micro payements it can work.
1749 2011-05-20 05:57:46 <gjs278> what if you got the logs from the irc server itself that we talked through
1750 2011-05-20 05:57:48 <erbs> not merely your word (when you just admitted you were doing your own scam with EvanR!)
1751 2011-05-20 05:57:57 <erbs> gjs278: that would be evidence
1752 2011-05-20 05:57:59 <EvanR> *sigh* seriously? is this scam actually worth your time?
1753 2011-05-20 05:58:00 <gjs278> or was the irc server in on it too
1754 2011-05-20 05:58:16 <erbs> no, i dont see how the irc server would have any interest in lying
1755 2011-05-20 05:58:19 has joined
1756 2011-05-20 05:58:22 <gjs278> why would evan
1757 2011-05-20 05:58:34 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: I also believe that if companies of governments see it working, they night adjust politics to support it.
1758 2011-05-20 05:58:35 <EvanR> am i part of a conspiracy against scottlad?
1759 2011-05-20 05:58:38 <erbs> evan didn't witness anything.
1760 2011-05-20 05:58:38 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1761 2011-05-20 05:58:44 <green-coder> -of +or
1762 2011-05-20 05:58:46 <EvanR> and would i even know if i were?
1763 2011-05-20 05:58:48 <erbs> he has nothing admissable to say at all - except he admits he scammed robthenob!
1764 2011-05-20 05:58:49 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, i dont think it can
1765 2011-05-20 05:58:58 <gjs278> erbs this is pretty simple
1766 2011-05-20 05:59:03 <gjs278> I send coins to rob
1767 2011-05-20 05:59:07 <gjs278> rob does not pay me
1768 2011-05-20 05:59:11 <gjs278> I accuse him of not paying me
1769 2011-05-20 05:59:13 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, if i make a promise to a truck driver to give him a snickers bar how are you goign to collect on that promise?
1770 2011-05-20 05:59:14 <erbs> the problem is, when you "scam someone back" and theres no evidence of that person ever scamming you in the first place - you look like the scammer!
1771 2011-05-20 05:59:16 <EvanR> i refuse to drag this on further in this inappropriate channel
1772 2011-05-20 05:59:20 <gjs278> lol
1773 2011-05-20 05:59:20 * EvanR goes to -politics
1774 2011-05-20 05:59:27 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, going to drive cross country to get the snickers bar from me?
1775 2011-05-20 05:59:30 <green-coder> we will see. At least, I am sure that it can work with small amount of money in a circle of friend.
1776 2011-05-20 05:59:47 <green-coder> if it succed this, then that's a good debut.
1777 2011-05-20 05:59:47 <erbs> gjs278: let me ask you, why did you pay up front in the first place when he had no rating
1778 2011-05-20 05:59:49 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, sure if it never leaves a small group
1779 2011-05-20 05:59:50 <erbs> i dont get that
1780 2011-05-20 05:59:58 <gjs278> because I have never had any issues before trading with people
1781 2011-05-20 06:00:02 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, but it's self limiting to people who more or less trust each other
1782 2011-05-20 06:00:09 <gjs278> I shouldn't have trusted him
1783 2011-05-20 06:00:20 <erbs> yeah but you can escrow everything
1784 2011-05-20 06:00:33 <gjs278> I'll use it in the future when dealing with a trader with no rep
1785 2011-05-20 06:00:34 <erbs> also - why not buy on the openmarket
1786 2011-05-20 06:00:42 <gjs278> I don't like paying mtgox fees
1787 2011-05-20 06:00:50 <erbs> but youd have to pay paypal fees..
1788 2011-05-20 06:00:51 <erbs> which are higher
1789 2011-05-20 06:00:59 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: if government protected bank-alike compagnies are backing it up, each individual could get at least 1 trusted friend :)
1790 2011-05-20 06:01:04 <gjs278> I actually didnt pay any fee
1791 2011-05-20 06:01:08 <gjs278> paypal to paypal doesn't have a fee
1792 2011-05-20 06:01:12 <phantomcircuit> erbs, you have to pay paypal fees to load/move off mtgox anyways...
1793 2011-05-20 06:01:19 <therap1st> scottlad = robthenob?
1794 2011-05-20 06:01:28 <gjs278> yeah
1795 2011-05-20 06:01:37 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, no government is ever going to back such a system
1796 2011-05-20 06:01:54 <green-coder> by backing it, I mean to vote laws to make this dept system protected against those who do not honor their debts.
1797 2011-05-20 06:01:56 <therap1st> hes been trading cracked paypal accounts
1798 2011-05-20 06:02:01 <erbs> well you mustve known there was a possibility he wouldn't carry out the deal (but the risk of losing a small amount of btc was less than the cost of using mtgox/escrow/etc)
1799 2011-05-20 06:02:01 <therap1st> cant really provide evidence, just so you know
1800 2011-05-20 06:02:17 <erbs> anyway it sucked that you were scammed gjs278..
1801 2011-05-20 06:02:26 <gjs278> indeed
1802 2011-05-20 06:02:36 <green-coder> in many countries, if you can prove that someone own you something, you can ask the government to force him to pay you.
1803 2011-05-20 06:02:49 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, the issue isn't those who default, it's the cost of collecting on very small debts, for example if i promise someone something worth $5 but they have to drive 100 miles to get it
1804 2011-05-20 06:02:49 <green-coder> regardless of the debt/payment system.
1805 2011-05-20 06:02:57 <therap1st> green-coder: no chance with btc
1806 2011-05-20 06:03:23 mosi has joined
1807 2011-05-20 06:03:31 <green-coder> I don't understand how miles enter the logic.
1808 2011-05-20 06:03:40 <therap1st> and ota trust based system is laughable. either 3rd party clearance or it will be pretty much suicide once east europe scammer swamp this place
1809 2011-05-20 06:03:48 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, it's a promise from me to whom ever holds to debt to do something
1810 2011-05-20 06:04:03 <green-coder> not to do something.
1811 2011-05-20 06:04:06 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, you kind of have to be in the same place to actually get me to deliver on that promise
1812 2011-05-20 06:04:10 <EvanR> therap1st: were continuing this discussion in #bitcoin-politics
1813 2011-05-20 06:04:14 <green-coder> to pay back.
1814 2011-05-20 06:04:24 devon_hillard has joined
1815 2011-05-20 06:04:24 <XX01XX> You could script to hold the bitcoins after they're sent.
1816 2011-05-20 06:04:28 mos has quit (work!~mos@217.22.80.82|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1817 2011-05-20 06:04:42 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, great so now i need to have credit reports for anybody i buy anything from ever?
1818 2011-05-20 06:04:46 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: have you done webdev?
1819 2011-05-20 06:04:48 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, it just doesn't work
1820 2011-05-20 06:05:04 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: no, to only the limited list of your friends.
1821 2011-05-20 06:05:13 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: yes
1822 2011-05-20 06:05:19 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, you're going in circles
1823 2011-05-20 06:05:21 <Diablo-D3> infact, I have most of a pool software done
1824 2011-05-20 06:05:27 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: what is your favorite framework?
1825 2011-05-20 06:05:41 <green-coder> using your friends only, you can pay someone who is not in the circle of your friends.
1826 2011-05-20 06:05:43 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: seam 3 on java.
1827 2011-05-20 06:05:58 Stellar has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1828 2011-05-20 06:06:09 <devon_hillard> hm... seam, never heard of it :)
1829 2011-05-20 06:06:10 kakazza has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1830 2011-05-20 06:06:10 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: combines CDI and facelets for the win
1831 2011-05-20 06:06:13 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, you realize that not everybody has a group of people who trust them right?
1832 2011-05-20 06:06:20 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: imagine spring, but 100 times less gay
1833 2011-05-20 06:06:27 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, indeed i can think of people whom nobody would trust at all
1834 2011-05-20 06:06:31 <phantomcircuit> so they're just fucked?
1835 2011-05-20 06:06:55 <green-coder> true, and those can only borrow to banks
1836 2011-05-20 06:07:19 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: yes .. as you said.
1837 2011-05-20 06:07:23 <Diablo-D3> btw, as for loaning to trusted friends?
1838 2011-05-20 06:07:27 <Diablo-D3> I dont trust my friends.
1839 2011-05-20 06:07:40 <gjs278> one time a friend asked me for $2000 irl
1840 2011-05-20 06:07:42 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, exactly
1841 2011-05-20 06:07:44 <gjs278> I told him I wouldnt give him $20
1842 2011-05-20 06:07:48 <green-coder> Diablo-D3: then I trust your bank must be happy to steal you.
1843 2011-05-20 06:07:52 kakazza has joined
1844 2011-05-20 06:08:04 <Diablo-D3> green-coder: not at all
1845 2011-05-20 06:08:11 <Diablo-D3> who needs banks when you have bitcoin
1846 2011-05-20 06:08:12 <Diablo-D3> EH?
1847 2011-05-20 06:08:13 <Diablo-D3> EH?
1848 2011-05-20 06:08:27 <green-coder> :)
1849 2011-05-20 06:08:41 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: well whose gonna loan you bitcoins duh ;P
1850 2011-05-20 06:08:47 <Diablo-D3> dude
1851 2011-05-20 06:08:54 <Diablo-D3> if you stop squandering your money on stupid chinese shit
1852 2011-05-20 06:08:57 <Diablo-D3> you wont NEED loans
1853 2011-05-20 06:09:11 <green-coder> well.. I won't accept bitcoins and won't implement it on my platform, but I wish you good luck.
1854 2011-05-20 06:09:14 <jrmithdobbs> that's p much impossible to do
1855 2011-05-20 06:09:17 <wumpus> good point Diablo-D3
1856 2011-05-20 06:09:25 Stellar has joined
1857 2011-05-20 06:09:28 <jrmithdobbs> not squandering money on chinese shit i mean
1858 2011-05-20 06:09:37 <jrmithdobbs> there's no other shit to squander it on! ;P
1859 2011-05-20 06:09:45 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, good luck to you with ripple cash ;)
1860 2011-05-20 06:09:56 <Diablo-D3> jrmithdobbs: hookers and blow... made in america.
1861 2011-05-20 06:10:05 <wumpus> you'd only need leans to set up businesses, but that's a whole other cup of tea anyway
1862 2011-05-20 06:10:07 <green-coder> not ripple cash .. there is no cash
1863 2011-05-20 06:10:11 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: blow's frow thailand the hookers from south america
1864 2011-05-20 06:10:14 <jrmithdobbs> Diablo-D3: duh!
1865 2011-05-20 06:10:18 <green-coder> it's ripple pay
1866 2011-05-20 06:10:23 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: thanks, I'll check it out
1867 2011-05-20 06:10:40 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: btw, as a side note, frameworks are not a replacement for learning how to code.
1868 2011-05-20 06:10:42 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, ok ripple debt, btw in accounting debt is cash
1869 2011-05-20 06:10:54 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: no, of course not
1870 2011-05-20 06:10:59 <green-coder> maybe in the future both can co-exist.
1871 2011-05-20 06:11:15 <green-coder> f2f dept for those who have friends, and bitcoins for others
1872 2011-05-20 06:13:09 galaxyAbstractor has joined
1873 2011-05-20 06:13:15 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: a last thing that makes me wondering about bitcoins .. how well is it decentralized ?
1874 2011-05-20 06:13:21 iera has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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1876 2011-05-20 06:13:26 <green-coder> people are using irc servers to communicate.
1877 2011-05-20 06:13:30 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, it's entirely decentralized
1878 2011-05-20 06:13:53 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, if you shutdown bitcoin.org and this irc right now nothing would happen to bitcoin at all
1879 2011-05-20 06:14:10 <phantomcircuit> other than minor complications with new people getting a client
1880 2011-05-20 06:14:39 <green-coder> how easy is it to spy peole who use bitcoin ?
1881 2011-05-20 06:15:14 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, depends on how they have it setup
1882 2011-05-20 06:15:23 <phantomcircuit> you can run bitcoin over tor, but the default it not to
1883 2011-05-20 06:15:49 <phantomcircuit> so most of the nodes can be identified by ip pretty easily, but this doesn't really identify people (reglardless of what the riaa/mpaa woudl have you believe)
1884 2011-05-20 06:16:00 <Optimo> transactions are anonymous as users are assigned random addreses and they can make new addresses at will
1885 2011-05-20 06:17:02 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, although of course if you buy btc in such a way as to link the address to your person, that btc is linked to you until you have moved it around enough that nobody could say you still have control of it
1886 2011-05-20 06:18:35 eoss has joined
1887 2011-05-20 06:18:51 <green-coder> thank you all for this interesting discussion.
1888 2011-05-20 06:19:02 <green-coder> I go back to my platform. see you ~
1889 2011-05-20 06:19:47 <rhett__> what is the difference between 'bitcoin' and 'bitcoind' in cli linux?
1890 2011-05-20 06:19:56 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
1891 2011-05-20 06:20:04 <luke-jr> rhett__: 'bitcoin' isn't CLI
1892 2011-05-20 06:20:21 <luke-jr> rhett__: 'bitcoind' isn't either, but it'll run as a server
1893 2011-05-20 06:20:31 <rhett__> luke-jr, i dont see the gui
1894 2011-05-20 06:20:33 <luke-jr> tcatm has a real CLI branch
1895 2011-05-20 06:20:45 <rhett__> i just ran it from the command line
1896 2011-05-20 06:20:50 <gjs278> if your goal is to use bitcoin from a cli, bitcoind is as close as you'll get using the download offered at bitcoin.org
1897 2011-05-20 06:21:01 <gjs278> you'll have to go elsewhere for a real cli client
1898 2011-05-20 06:21:09 green-coder has left ()
1899 2011-05-20 06:21:23 <rhett__> i don't want to generate coins. i just want to transfer and recieve them
1900 2011-05-20 06:21:28 <rhett__> using testnet for now
1901 2011-05-20 06:21:52 green-coder has joined
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1903 2011-05-20 06:22:04 <green-coder> I forgot one thing ..
1904 2011-05-20 06:22:32 dukeleto has joined
1905 2011-05-20 06:22:37 <green-coder> when quantum computers will be everywhere, how will it impact bitcoin's money creation ?
1906 2011-05-20 06:23:28 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, depends on how many qbits they shove into them
1907 2011-05-20 06:23:39 <phantomcircuit> and which algorithm they decide to implement
1908 2011-05-20 06:23:52 <green-coder> suppose they have a lot of qbits
1909 2011-05-20 06:24:01 <phantomcircuit> then completely worthless
1910 2011-05-20 06:24:23 <phantomcircuit> otoh a quantum computer capable of that would reveal decades of secrets
1911 2011-05-20 06:24:56 <green-coder> one day it might happen.
1912 2011-05-20 06:25:09 <rhett__> i just had the faucet send me testnet coins to mp1UJuLbQLwnkfijtBZ3rRPFidUYsA4T9h, but i don't see them
1913 2011-05-20 06:25:36 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1914 2011-05-20 06:25:50 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, sure but as that time approaches the value of a bitcoin in comparison to real goods will slide
1915 2011-05-20 06:26:02 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, i dont think it's much of an issue really since we're not even close
1916 2011-05-20 06:26:22 <green-coder> I might not be sure of that.
1917 2011-05-20 06:26:30 <phantomcircuit> (factoring 15 doesn't count since there is no way to tell whether the algorithm worked in constant or O(n^2) time)
1918 2011-05-20 06:26:46 <green-coder> we, the public, always have this kind of information with a long delay.
1919 2011-05-20 06:26:46 <phantomcircuit> since they would literally take the same number of operations
1920 2011-05-20 06:27:43 <green-coder> the shore algorithm ?
1921 2011-05-20 06:27:51 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, a quantum computer would allow you to generate blocks quickly and easily or to simply steal btc using the ecdsa stuff
1922 2011-05-20 06:28:03 <green-coder> true
1923 2011-05-20 06:28:07 <phantomcircuit> however both of these would be immediately obvious to anybody paying attention
1924 2011-05-20 06:28:23 <phantomcircuit> and something tells me the nsa wouldn't waste developing a quantum computer on bitcoins
1925 2011-05-20 06:28:24 <green-coder> well .. in this fantasist situation, ripple pay would still be up and running
1926 2011-05-20 06:28:36 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, lol no it wouldn't
1927 2011-05-20 06:28:46 <phantomcircuit> ripple pay needs public key crypto for it's web of trust
1928 2011-05-20 06:28:50 <green-coder> except that people would need a better way to encrypt their private communication :p
1929 2011-05-20 06:28:56 <phantomcircuit> you'd be just as screwed as everybody else
1930 2011-05-20 06:29:15 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: not if people are not using public keys
1931 2011-05-20 06:29:24 <green-coder> I mean public keys based encryption.
1932 2011-05-20 06:29:27 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, if someone develops a quantum computer with > 8192 qbits the only secure form of communication would be using quantum entanglement
1933 2011-05-20 06:29:34 <phantomcircuit> ie super expensive and fat chance
1934 2011-05-20 06:30:01 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, you cannot form a WoT w/o public key crypto
1935 2011-05-20 06:30:04 <phantomcircuit> it's not possible
1936 2011-05-20 06:30:16 <green-coder> how about a shared secret ?
1937 2011-05-20 06:30:31 <phantomcircuit> shared between who? everybody?
1938 2011-05-20 06:30:40 <green-coder> between each pair of individual
1939 2011-05-20 06:30:44 Ayme has joined
1940 2011-05-20 06:30:47 oneman has joined
1941 2011-05-20 06:30:52 <green-coder> using the same key to encrypt and decrypt
1942 2011-05-20 06:31:00 <Ayme> hi there, can someone help me understand the hype behind bitcoin?
1943 2011-05-20 06:31:01 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, that's an exponential number of shared secrets
1944 2011-05-20 06:31:04 <green-coder> xor world
1945 2011-05-20 06:31:08 <Ayme> I understand it is like WoW gold
1946 2011-05-20 06:31:17 <Ayme> but why is there so much hype?
1947 2011-05-20 06:31:26 <green-coder> if I have 10 friends, I need 10 private keys
1948 2011-05-20 06:31:32 <phantomcircuit> Ayme, not at all, WoW gold can be arbitrarily created by blizzard in whatever quantity they want
1949 2011-05-20 06:31:36 <dietnews> what about a onetime pad?
1950 2011-05-20 06:31:37 <green-coder> that's not a lot
1951 2011-05-20 06:31:45 <dietnews> could a quantum computer crack one of those?
1952 2011-05-20 06:31:48 <phantomcircuit> Ayme, bitcoins have a fixed quantity
1953 2011-05-20 06:31:57 <green-coder> dietnews: I have no idea, unfortunatly
1954 2011-05-20 06:32:07 <phantomcircuit> dietnews, no a otp is provably unbreakable assuming true random pads
1955 2011-05-20 06:32:08 <green-coder> in theory, no.\
1956 2011-05-20 06:32:09 <Ayme> So there will be 1 billion bitcoins in the world forever?
1957 2011-05-20 06:32:21 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, not in theory, provably
1958 2011-05-20 06:32:21 <dietnews> 21million
1959 2011-05-20 06:32:28 <phantomcircuit> Ayme, 21 million
1960 2011-05-20 06:32:29 <green-coder> but cryptanalyse on a quantum computer could still be a problem.
1961 2011-05-20 06:32:37 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, no it wouldn't
1962 2011-05-20 06:32:45 <rhett__> can anyone help me with the linux commandline client?
1963 2011-05-20 06:32:50 <Ayme> Let's say I have 100 bitcoins
1964 2011-05-20 06:32:56 <Ayme> What can I do with them?
1965 2011-05-20 06:33:06 <dietnews> transfer funs across borders
1966 2011-05-20 06:33:06 <gjs278> socks
1967 2011-05-20 06:33:08 <gjs278> lots of socks
1968 2011-05-20 06:33:11 <dietnews> funds
1969 2011-05-20 06:33:12 <phantomcircuit> Ayme, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
1970 2011-05-20 06:33:19 <dietnews> buy certain goods
1971 2011-05-20 06:33:26 <Ayme> I saw that, so I can only buy in certain stores
1972 2011-05-20 06:33:27 <phantomcircuit> Ayme, for a start
1973 2011-05-20 06:33:48 <green-coder> I have to go. thans and see you ~
1974 2011-05-20 06:33:57 <phantomcircuit> Ayme, sure and you cant buy shoes in america with pesos
1975 2011-05-20 06:34:10 AntiVigilante has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1976 2011-05-20 06:34:16 OxFFFEuck has joined
1977 2011-05-20 06:34:22 <phantomcircuit> and im pretty sure you cant buy anything in .au for less than double the price in usd ;)
1978 2011-05-20 06:34:52 <gjs278> especially videogames
1979 2011-05-20 06:35:01 <green-coder> phantomcircuit: how about free speech ? :D
1980 2011-05-20 06:35:58 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, what? you definitely cant buy free speech with pesos
1981 2011-05-20 06:36:21 <green-coder> true. it is priceless
1982 2011-05-20 06:36:26 <rhett__> ok bitcoind listreceivedbyaddress 0 true shows some, but i don't think they're in my wallet
1983 2011-05-20 06:36:29 <gjs278> if you pay for free speech, it isn't free anymore
1984 2011-05-20 06:36:37 <green-coder> but you can have more, depending where you are.
1985 2011-05-20 06:37:41 green-coder has left ()
1986 2011-05-20 06:37:44 <phantomcircuit> green-coder, anyways competition is a good thing, if you succeed then that's one more alt cur
1987 2011-05-20 06:39:35 datathe1st-away has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1988 2011-05-20 06:39:37 <dietnews> gjs278: free as in speech not as in beer
1989 2011-05-20 06:39:40 smooth_ has joined
1990 2011-05-20 06:39:48 <gjs278> just joking
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2001 2011-05-20 07:02:14 Lis has left ("УÑ
Ð¾Ð¶Ñ Ñ Ð¾Ñ Ð²Ð°Ñ")
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2006 2011-05-20 07:04:56 <Diablo-D3> did the forums just go https?
2007 2011-05-20 07:05:17 kika_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2008 2011-05-20 07:06:01 <wumpus> alas, no, http still works
2009 2011-05-20 07:06:21 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
2010 2011-05-20 07:06:21 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.28,"low":6.61,"vol":23451,"buy":6.8331,"sell":6.9399,"last":6.9693}}
2011 2011-05-20 07:06:22 <wumpus> and https still has the old self-signed cert
2012 2011-05-20 07:06:29 <wumpus> they're working on it though
2013 2011-05-20 07:07:21 tippenein has left ()
2014 2011-05-20 07:07:35 <rhett__> does anyone know how to see transactions that aren't verified yet?
2015 2011-05-20 07:07:56 <Diablo-D3> rhett__: you mean havent made it into a block yet?
2016 2011-05-20 07:08:04 <Diablo-D3> the GUI displays them as 0/Unconfirmed
2017 2011-05-20 07:08:47 <rhett__> what about the command line, Diablo-D3 ?
2018 2011-05-20 07:09:18 <Diablo-D3> not sure
2019 2011-05-20 07:09:25 <Diablo-D3> I think you have to listtransactions 0
2020 2011-05-20 07:10:29 trace_busta_bust is now known as euclid
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2025 2011-05-20 07:18:47 <devon_hillard> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/19/sex-party-reward-german-salesmen
2026 2011-05-20 07:19:05 <devon_hillard> that's how you reward employees ;)
2027 2011-05-20 07:19:59 <Diablo-D3> .... holy damn.
2028 2011-05-20 07:20:08 <Diablo-D3> I am working in the wrong business in the wrong country
2029 2011-05-20 07:22:55 blk2011 has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
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2032 2011-05-20 07:29:07 <UukGoblin> hrm these current transaction fees are a bit weird...
2033 2011-05-20 07:29:49 <Diablo-D3> you know what feels weird?
2034 2011-05-20 07:29:50 <UukGoblin> if I have 0.005 in my wallet and want to transfer it to another address, I need to first send ~1 BTC to the account, and then send 1.005 back?
2035 2011-05-20 07:30:04 <Diablo-D3> I swear the god deepbit has learned the technique of planking
2036 2011-05-20 07:30:47 <UukGoblin> planking?
2037 2011-05-20 07:31:13 <Diablo-D3> its where you lay down on random objects
2038 2011-05-20 07:31:16 Optimo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2039 2011-05-20 07:31:56 <Diablo-D3> currently it has planked out of a third story window
2040 2011-05-20 07:32:10 <sipa> ...
2041 2011-05-20 07:32:39 <UukGoblin> I'm... lost ;-]
2042 2011-05-20 07:32:41 <Diablo-D3> imagining it will only lead to you laughing to death.
2043 2011-05-20 07:35:28 <netxshare> ;;bc,stats
2044 2011-05-20 07:35:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125260 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1747 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 0 hours, 26 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 329396.39156022
2045 2011-05-20 07:36:59 Optimo has joined
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2050 2011-05-20 07:40:45 <p3pper> hi guys.
2051 2011-05-20 07:41:25 <p3pper> someone know if exist some server for bitcoin that will allow many individual miners to cooperate on solving blocks that run under FreeBSD?
2052 2011-05-20 07:41:33 aschmitz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2053 2011-05-20 07:42:03 <sipa> you want the miner to run on freebsd, or the bitcoin daemon?
2054 2011-05-20 07:42:53 <p3pper> run the daemon, i want to people connect to my server to work as team
2055 2011-05-20 07:43:02 gsathya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2056 2011-05-20 07:43:54 <sipa> do you need individual statistics and authentication for the miners?
2057 2011-05-20 07:44:11 <p3pper> yes
2058 2011-05-20 07:44:23 <sipa> hmm, maybe pushpold
2059 2011-05-20 07:44:27 <sipa> pushpoold
2060 2011-05-20 07:44:28 TD has joined
2061 2011-05-20 07:45:57 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r38913b5 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Added timeout for non-LP connections - http://bit.ly/j82GEb
2062 2011-05-20 07:46:03 aschmitz has joined
2063 2011-05-20 07:47:53 <p3pper> wich is the url of pushpoold?
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2071 2011-05-20 08:00:26 <p3pper> looks like pushpoold dont work under bsd :(
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2078 2011-05-20 08:14:08 <zp> Hi, is it possible to see details of a transaction if I have its hash?
2079 2011-05-20 08:16:59 <retinal> blockexplorer.com
2080 2011-05-20 08:21:38 <molecular> /msg luke-jr I can't find the address to connect for eligius europe
2081 2011-05-20 08:26:26 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2085 2011-05-20 08:39:44 diki has joined
2086 2011-05-20 08:40:06 <diki> So...i bought a .US domain, but i am not a US resident. What could happen?
2087 2011-05-20 08:40:16 <_ape> nothing
2088 2011-05-20 08:40:35 <sipa> dragons be upon thee
2089 2011-05-20 08:40:47 <diki> I wrote when registering the domain that i do live in the USA, but i do not.
2090 2011-05-20 08:41:06 <_ape> nobody cares lol
2091 2011-05-20 08:41:10 <_ape> who is going to enforce it, the internet police?
2092 2011-05-20 08:41:12 <diki> I was told, that a US resident could dispute the domain and take ownership
2093 2011-05-20 08:41:29 <_ape> if your domain name is so great smebody would have bought it already
2094 2011-05-20 08:41:51 <diki> It's actually about a new pool i 'hope' to make
2095 2011-05-20 08:43:47 <Diablo-D3> diki: .us domains can be recovered through the court system, yes
2096 2011-05-20 08:44:00 <diki> how likely is it to happen if it's connected to bitcoin?
2097 2011-05-20 08:44:30 <ersi> diki: worst case scenario.. you lose your domain.
2098 2011-05-20 08:44:55 <ersi> It's not all that common that regisitries verifies owner information
2099 2011-05-20 08:44:58 <diki> and i read about an administration fee
2100 2011-05-20 08:45:01 <Diablo-D3> hrm
2101 2011-05-20 08:45:06 <Diablo-D3> someone said gpu clock/3 + 14
2102 2011-05-20 08:45:15 <ersi> aslong as you don't register as Mr Faceless Dickhead, it'll be fine
2103 2011-05-20 08:45:33 <diki> i actually registered as diki although that is not my true name at all
2104 2011-05-20 08:45:56 <ersi> just saying that if you didn't fill out anything that is obviously super obvious.. it'll be fine
2105 2011-05-20 08:46:15 <diki> well...i kinda did.
2106 2011-05-20 08:46:22 <ersi> failguy
2107 2011-05-20 08:46:27 <diki> i could change the info
2108 2011-05-20 08:46:36 hw1979 has joined
2109 2011-05-20 08:46:43 <diki> but i don't know anything about US stuff
2110 2011-05-20 08:46:48 <diki> like postal codes and stuff
2111 2011-05-20 08:46:53 <x5x> diki, nothijngs gonna happen
2112 2011-05-20 08:46:58 <ersi> It's way easier to spot false accounts/owners when someone reported living on Fakestreet 156 than someone who wrote Newchester St 45 or something
2113 2011-05-20 08:47:00 <x5x> no one acutally cares about your domain
2114 2011-05-20 08:47:12 <ersi> But like I said, no one sits and verifies this shit
2115 2011-05-20 08:47:14 <edcba> us will bomb you
2116 2011-05-20 08:47:21 jimb0 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2117 2011-05-20 08:47:25 <x5x> and theres no law against regstierng w fake info
2118 2011-05-20 08:47:27 <edcba> that's how they deal with cyberterrorists
2119 2011-05-20 08:47:43 <ersi> And also, like I said, worst case is someone spots it and deletes the registration
2120 2011-05-20 08:47:53 <ersi> and you don't get the fee back
2121 2011-05-20 08:47:55 <x5x> yea thatll never happen
2122 2011-05-20 08:48:01 <ersi> ye
2123 2011-05-20 08:48:03 gribble has joined
2124 2011-05-20 08:48:24 <ersi> I've only spotted fake accounts when the dipshits called me up at support
2125 2011-05-20 08:48:44 <ersi> so i fixed their support issue, then poked Registry dept ;p
2126 2011-05-20 08:49:01 fimp has joined
2127 2011-05-20 08:49:17 <ersi> (cause they were pricks in the support issues)
2128 2011-05-20 08:49:25 <diki> So, although the pushpool is accepting shares, it's not inserting anything into the shares table. Anyone know why?
2129 2011-05-20 08:50:14 mesees has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2130 2011-05-20 08:50:24 <diki> The only bad thing about the pool is that it's on my machine, not a dedi host
2131 2011-05-20 08:51:05 <diki> Striving for uptime will be hard...
2132 2011-05-20 08:51:08 soossii has joined
2133 2011-05-20 08:51:16 <diki> And i have set up quite the lot of forwarding
2134 2011-05-20 08:51:30 <diki> I forward from PC1 to PC2 and then forward from PC2 to VM
2135 2011-05-20 08:53:35 zp has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2136 2011-05-20 08:53:53 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2137 2011-05-20 08:54:52 jimb0 has joined
2138 2011-05-20 08:56:36 dvide has joined
2139 2011-05-20 08:56:55 gribble has joined
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2141 2011-05-20 09:02:24 sabalabas has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2142 2011-05-20 09:08:57 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
2143 2011-05-20 09:09:08 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.28,"low":6.61,"vol":22596,"buy":6.899,"sell":6.93,"last":6.899}}
2144 2011-05-20 09:09:15 <nevezen> wow, btc is worth that high now?
2145 2011-05-20 09:09:46 demosophy has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2146 2011-05-20 09:09:58 hw1979 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2147 2011-05-20 09:11:16 sethsethseth____ has joined
2148 2011-05-20 09:12:06 sethsethseth____ has quit (Client Quit)
2149 2011-05-20 09:12:48 sethsethseth has joined
2150 2011-05-20 09:12:51 Marcel has joined
2151 2011-05-20 09:13:00 <Diablo-D3> nevezen: it was $8 something the other day
2152 2011-05-20 09:13:32 <nevezen> where do you trade your btc for usd?
2153 2011-05-20 09:13:52 <Diablo-D3> mtgox
2154 2011-05-20 09:16:04 sabalabas has joined
2155 2011-05-20 09:16:17 <nevezen> I don't suppose it supports paypal..
2156 2011-05-20 09:16:24 <Diablo-D3> no.
2157 2011-05-20 09:17:31 <nevezen> I don't know if I can trust dwolla
2158 2011-05-20 09:18:20 <ersi> Funny that you trust Paypal.
2159 2011-05-20 09:18:33 <ersi> Seeing how easy it is to reverse transactions and scam someone
2160 2011-05-20 09:18:48 <nevezen> I actually don't either
2161 2011-05-20 09:19:10 da2ce7 has quit ()
2162 2011-05-20 09:19:50 <nevezen> it's kinda' ironic that bitcoin cuts out the middleman yet mtgox uses a 3rd party service for trading btc's..
2163 2011-05-20 09:20:00 <nevezen> that's by definition a middleman too.
2164 2011-05-20 09:20:19 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't cut out middlemen
2165 2011-05-20 09:20:32 <sipa> it cuts out relying on them to function
2166 2011-05-20 09:20:58 <nevezen> semantics.
2167 2011-05-20 09:21:08 <sipa> not really
2168 2011-05-20 09:21:13 Animazing has left ()
2169 2011-05-20 09:21:31 <ersi> Not really at all. It's different things
2170 2011-05-20 09:21:31 <sipa> you can as well say that bitcoin does away with fractional reserve banking
2171 2011-05-20 09:21:38 <ersi> And MtGox *is* a middleman
2172 2011-05-20 09:21:45 <sipa> but fractional reserve banking is still possible on top of bitcoin
2173 2011-05-20 09:22:07 * Alexees accepting bitcoin via paypal =)
2174 2011-05-20 09:22:19 <sipa> Alexees: #bitcoin-otc
2175 2011-05-20 09:22:27 <nevezen> snail mail then
2176 2011-05-20 09:23:29 * nevezen needs to read more now
2177 2011-05-20 09:23:35 <nevezen> so out of the loop with bitcoin
2178 2011-05-20 09:35:31 Kurtov has joined
2179 2011-05-20 09:36:05 <Kurtov> Can I change aggression in Diablo's Miner?
2180 2011-05-20 09:36:13 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2181 2011-05-20 09:36:14 <UukGoblin> hm, gribble forgot to report some bitomat trades...
2182 2011-05-20 09:36:32 <sipa> Kurtov: use -f
2183 2011-05-20 09:36:50 <Kurtov> So if I want aggression to equal 11 I go -f 11?
2184 2011-05-20 09:37:26 <sipa> no
2185 2011-05-20 09:37:27 <UukGoblin> all the bitomat trades between 08:28:32 and 10:56:41 are missing from gribble's feed (tcatm and nanotube I guess)
2186 2011-05-20 09:37:39 <Kurtov> sipa: Can you explain then?
2187 2011-05-20 09:37:49 <sipa> Kurtov: if you want to use the machine while mining, you'll use something between -f 50 and -f 1000
2188 2011-05-20 09:37:50 <UukGoblin> gah I mean between 08:28:32 and 08:56:41 GMT
2189 2011-05-20 09:37:58 <sipa> Kurtov: if you don't, use something between -f 1 and -f 5
2190 2011-05-20 09:38:06 <Kurtov> Okay
2191 2011-05-20 09:38:07 <Diablo-D3> sipa: no
2192 2011-05-20 09:38:13 <Diablo-D3> should be a multiple or divisor of 60
2193 2011-05-20 09:38:18 <sipa> why?
2194 2011-05-20 09:38:21 <Kurtov> How much of a loss is there when it's above 50?
2195 2011-05-20 09:38:38 <Diablo-D3> sipa: works better
2196 2011-05-20 09:38:41 <sipa> ok
2197 2011-05-20 09:38:55 <sipa> 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all divisors of 60
2198 2011-05-20 09:39:05 <sipa> :)
2199 2011-05-20 09:40:03 <Kurtov> Woah, by increasing my clock from 875 to 900 on my 6970 it went from 342mhash to 365mhash
2200 2011-05-20 09:40:22 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2201 2011-05-20 09:41:22 hw1979 has joined
2202 2011-05-20 09:47:11 <dietnews> :o
2203 2011-05-20 09:49:03 dietnews has quit (Quit: dietnews)
2204 2011-05-20 09:50:16 vfxguynz has joined
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2206 2011-05-20 09:53:53 RazielZ has joined
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2208 2011-05-20 09:54:55 erik__ is now known as krekbwoy
2209 2011-05-20 09:58:29 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
2210 2011-05-20 09:58:31 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125277 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1730 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 12 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 325404.95291446
2211 2011-05-20 09:58:36 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
2212 2011-05-20 09:58:37 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.28,"low":6.61,"vol":22282,"buy":6.9,"sell":6.92,"last":6.9}}
2213 2011-05-20 10:01:00 gsathya has quit (Quit: gsathya)
2214 2011-05-20 10:07:12 TDX_ is now known as TD
2215 2011-05-20 10:13:46 <LobsterMan> if you wanted to try to capture the history of the tries your miner makes to a text file or something readable, would that be feasible?
2216 2011-05-20 10:14:13 <LobsterMan> would be interesting to compare between several people over time to see if there are lots of duplicate attempts at solutions to the current block
2217 2011-05-20 10:16:38 jivvz has joined
2218 2011-05-20 10:19:26 <Astriks> Looks like LFNet needs a bigger SendQ
2219 2011-05-20 10:19:46 <Astriks> People getting kicked off the server because the /names is so big
2220 2011-05-20 10:19:54 <Astriks> I love too see bitcoin grow :D
2221 2011-05-20 10:22:20 <MacRohard> Astriks, yea.. maybe. what we need is for gavin to apply the channel split patch that laszlo sent him. It will split the channel into 100 channels.
2222 2011-05-20 10:22:57 soossii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2223 2011-05-20 10:24:02 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2224 2011-05-20 10:26:06 Kurtov has joined
2225 2011-05-20 10:26:32 <Astriks> MacRohard; yeah, you dont need to fetch 8000 clients
2226 2011-05-20 10:26:38 <Astriks> 100 will do indeed
2227 2011-05-20 10:27:12 <MacRohard> Astriks, right. having everyone in one channel is unsustainable because of all the JOIN/PART/QUITs that get sent to everyone. it causes exponential traffic growth on the ircd
2228 2011-05-20 10:28:22 Incitatus has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2229 2011-05-20 10:28:36 <Astriks> MacRohard; but how to split
2230 2011-05-20 10:28:39 <Astriks> i can see like
2231 2011-05-20 10:28:41 <Astriks> a list of
2232 2011-05-20 10:28:47 <Astriks> #1 , #2
2233 2011-05-20 10:28:57 <Astriks> and put an +l as soon as there are 100 users
2234 2011-05-20 10:29:13 <Astriks> but that would cause like, 100 join tries
2235 2011-05-20 10:29:27 <MacRohard> Astriks, easy, just pick a number from 1 to 100 and join #bitcoin<number>
2236 2011-05-20 10:29:29 <Astriks> i could see an 5 digit 0 - 9 random try
2237 2011-05-20 10:29:32 <MacRohard> Astriks, it'll work fine
2238 2011-05-20 10:29:44 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r96dad2f / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : You can now dump kernel source with -ds - http://bit.ly/mCd5R9
2239 2011-05-20 10:29:59 <Astriks> MacRohard; but the inital start of like #Bitvoin012
2240 2011-05-20 10:30:01 <Astriks> could take ages
2241 2011-05-20 10:30:11 <MacRohard> Astriks, not really. someone else will soon join
2242 2011-05-20 10:30:23 <Astriks> if there are 800 users yes
2243 2011-05-20 10:30:26 <Astriks> 8000*
2244 2011-05-20 10:30:30 <Astriks> but what is 3
2245 2011-05-20 10:30:34 <Astriks> that wont work that well
2246 2011-05-20 10:30:48 <MacRohard> there are 8000 users though :)
2247 2011-05-20 10:30:53 <Astriks> True
2248 2011-05-20 10:30:55 <Astriks> True..
2249 2011-05-20 10:31:11 <Astriks> #Bitcoin213
2250 2011-05-20 10:31:14 <Astriks> 100 peole
2251 2011-05-20 10:31:16 <Astriks> great idea
2252 2011-05-20 10:32:23 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
2253 2011-05-20 10:32:24 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.28,"low":6.61,"vol":22091,"buy":6.79,"sell":6.8,"last":6.8}}
2254 2011-05-20 10:33:11 <Astriks> MacRohard; I have an 100/100mbit Ubuntu server here. I want it to do something bitcoin related
2255 2011-05-20 10:34:37 <edcba> shells for 0.01btc/hour
2256 2011-05-20 10:35:18 <Astriks> like that would pay off after i get DDoSed 9001 times or get lots of DMCA takedowns
2257 2011-05-20 10:35:19 <Astriks> :(
2258 2011-05-20 10:35:30 <Astriks> edcba; more like, high speed Bitcoin node
2259 2011-05-20 10:36:39 <gjs278> no need
2260 2011-05-20 10:36:54 <gjs278> your main concerns are going to be storage size eventually
2261 2011-05-20 10:37:00 <gjs278> network speed isnt your biggest issue at all
2262 2011-05-20 10:37:22 <Astriks> gjs278; I have ~60 connected nodes, and i see a peak in my network alot
2263 2011-05-20 10:37:32 <Astriks> like, 100kB/s uploading
2264 2011-05-20 10:37:44 <Astriks> gjs278; size of blockchain?
2265 2011-05-20 10:37:48 <gjs278> eventually
2266 2011-05-20 10:37:54 <Astriks> damn
2267 2011-05-20 10:38:01 <gjs278> not for a long time though
2268 2011-05-20 10:38:19 <Astriks> it's ~200MB. Thats fine right?
2269 2011-05-20 10:38:26 <gjs278> bitcoins would have to really take off for even the worse case scenario
2270 2011-05-20 10:38:29 <gjs278> yeah
2271 2011-05-20 10:38:56 <Astriks> gjs278; what would happen if half the word decided to run bitcoin?
2272 2011-05-20 10:39:12 <gjs278> half the world doesnt even have facebook accounts
2273 2011-05-20 10:39:31 <Astriks> explain worse case scenario
2274 2011-05-20 10:40:06 <gjs278> you just end up with a really big blockchain
2275 2011-05-20 10:40:07 <gjs278> thats it
2276 2011-05-20 10:40:13 <Astriks> meh
2277 2011-05-20 10:45:06 <diki> anyone know how to compile from git?
2278 2011-05-20 10:45:48 <doublec> diki: on what platform?
2279 2011-05-20 10:45:54 <diki> linux
2280 2011-05-20 10:45:59 <diki> ubuntu to be more specific
2281 2011-05-20 10:46:06 <doublec> diki: cd src && make -f makefile.unix
2282 2011-05-20 10:46:48 <diki> no makefile.unix
2283 2011-05-20 10:47:28 <doublec> diki: it's in the src directory
2284 2011-05-20 10:47:50 <diki> there is a makefile, but the makeys it can't find one
2285 2011-05-20 10:48:19 <doublec> paste in a pastebin the exact commands and errors you're getting
2286 2011-05-20 10:48:26 <doublec> preferably a copy/paste from the shell
2287 2011-05-20 10:49:02 <diki> http://pastebin.com/cJ8g5uth
2288 2011-05-20 10:49:18 <Astriks> Stupid question: Who gets my transaction fee?
2289 2011-05-20 10:49:20 <diki> i do have curl btw
2290 2011-05-20 10:51:06 <doublec> diki: where did you get the source from?
2291 2011-05-20 10:51:21 <doublec> diki: oh, that's pushpoold
2292 2011-05-20 10:51:24 <doublec> diki: not bitcoin
2293 2011-05-20 10:51:51 <doublec> diki: did I miss part of the conversation where you said you were building pushpool?
2294 2011-05-20 10:52:05 <diki> you didn't ask lol
2295 2011-05-20 10:52:15 <diki> either way, i can build the provided tarball in the forum
2296 2011-05-20 10:52:22 <diki> but when i grab it from git...it just doesnt work
2297 2011-05-20 10:52:48 <doublec> diki: did you run autogen.sh
2298 2011-05-20 10:53:10 <diki> when i run it, it says it can't find AC_MSG_ERROR from the automake tools
2299 2011-05-20 10:53:15 <diki> and i have those
2300 2011-05-20 10:53:29 <diki> i even run aclocal
2301 2011-05-20 10:53:34 <diki> no dice to anything
2302 2011-05-20 10:54:04 <doublec> diki: do you have the -dev package for libcurl installed?
2303 2011-05-20 10:54:09 <diki> yep
2304 2011-05-20 10:54:33 <doublec> no idea, sorry
2305 2011-05-20 10:54:52 <diki> then what is different in git?
2306 2011-05-20 10:55:05 <diki> why is it so different that it produces errors even if i have the needed stuff
2307 2011-05-20 10:58:20 rli has joined
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2309 2011-05-20 11:00:43 Speeder has joined
2310 2011-05-20 11:08:25 <SerajewelKS> Astriks: the person who puts your transaction into a block and then solves the block
2311 2011-05-20 11:10:49 skeledrew has joined
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2322 2011-05-20 11:26:49 maddmike has joined
2323 2011-05-20 11:26:59 <maddmike> hai there
2324 2011-05-20 11:27:13 <LobsterMan> hi
2325 2011-05-20 11:27:18 <maddmike> :)
2326 2011-05-20 11:27:23 <maddmike> how is life
2327 2011-05-20 11:27:55 <maddmike> :p
2328 2011-05-20 11:28:48 Strom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2329 2011-05-20 11:30:26 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: you have forced me to add a new feature to diablominer
2330 2011-05-20 11:31:30 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: sendwork and non-LP getwork now have a 5 second timeout
2331 2011-05-20 11:34:54 larsivi has joined
2332 2011-05-20 11:36:25 <diki> pushpoold seriously needs a bit more functions added to triangulate the problem
2333 2011-05-20 11:36:46 <diki> i had to change some stuff a bit to understand what is the problem
2334 2011-05-20 11:37:33 <doublec> you should ask for your money ask
2335 2011-05-20 11:37:40 <doublec> you should ask for your money back
2336 2011-05-20 11:39:18 <doublec> diki: try copying the configure scripts from the tarball
2337 2011-05-20 11:41:08 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2338 2011-05-20 11:41:28 <diki> tried it...
2339 2011-05-20 11:41:50 <doublec> sometimes I hate software development
2340 2011-05-20 11:43:27 maddmike has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2341 2011-05-20 11:43:45 <diki> phew, finally works
2342 2011-05-20 11:43:54 <diki> a few columns i had to change in mysql to accept null values
2343 2011-05-20 11:44:45 danbri has joined
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2346 2011-05-20 11:52:29 <[Tycho]> Diablo-D3, hello.
2347 2011-05-20 11:53:57 Strom has joined
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2349 2011-05-20 11:55:19 vfxguynz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2352 2011-05-20 12:03:17 <devon_hillard> "
2353 2011-05-20 12:03:17 <devon_hillard> Sorry-- there are no bitcoins left in the Bitcoin Faucet. Hopefully some kind soul will donate some soon; check again tomorrow."
2354 2011-05-20 12:03:19 <devon_hillard> awww
2355 2011-05-20 12:12:07 larsivi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2361 2011-05-20 12:22:48 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
2362 2011-05-20 12:22:50 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125295 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1712 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 23 hours, 25 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 324719.06296182
2363 2011-05-20 12:23:01 <TD> devon_hillard: give me a few mins
2364 2011-05-20 12:23:02 <TD> i'll top it up
2365 2011-05-20 12:23:29 vikarti has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2375 2011-05-20 12:27:34 <TD> devon_hillard: i sent a donation to the faucet so in a bit, it should be vending again. give me an address of yours and i'll send you a few cents
2376 2011-05-20 12:28:05 <devon_hillard> TD: not for me, I was linking it for other people and realized it had run out
2377 2011-05-20 12:28:05 TheAncientGoat_ has joined
2378 2011-05-20 12:28:10 <TD> ah ok
2379 2011-05-20 12:28:28 m00p has joined
2380 2011-05-20 12:28:32 <devon_hillard> I sold my last few coins just earlier :p
2381 2011-05-20 12:28:53 <TD> d'oh
2382 2011-05-20 12:28:56 <Diablo-D3> [Tycho]: my miner kept having threads block for lengthy periods because the http connection never returned
2383 2011-05-20 12:29:01 <TD> getting out before the bubble bursts?
2384 2011-05-20 12:30:04 <devon_hillard> pretty much
2385 2011-05-20 12:31:10 eps1 has joined
2386 2011-05-20 12:32:47 <Diablo-D3> my 5850 has now earned... $75.07
2387 2011-05-20 12:35:36 <diki> I am now kinda stuck at one thing with the pool...how to detect when a round has started, when a block was completed and how to make the page with the blocks waiting for confirmation...
2388 2011-05-20 12:36:16 <diki> would it require any changes to the pool code or can it be done server-side?
2389 2011-05-20 12:36:25 <Speeder> Crazy drama on the forum
2390 2011-05-20 12:36:36 <Speeder> I love drama XD
2391 2011-05-20 12:37:43 jmorton has joined
2392 2011-05-20 12:38:12 ahbritto has joined
2393 2011-05-20 12:38:50 <ersi> Speeder: thread?
2394 2011-05-20 12:38:56 <Speeder> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9090.0;all
2395 2011-05-20 12:39:11 <ersi> Haha, what the
2396 2011-05-20 12:39:29 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2397 2011-05-20 12:39:37 <ersi> dishwara sucks ass at writing
2398 2011-05-20 12:42:46 <andrew12> is the 5970 still the fastest card for bitcoin mining?
2399 2011-05-20 12:44:18 <Speeder> andrew12: yes
2400 2011-05-20 12:44:28 <Speeder> unfortunately (since it is not manufactured anymore)
2401 2011-05-20 12:44:50 <andrew12> hmm
2402 2011-05-20 12:50:54 eternal1 has joined
2403 2011-05-20 12:50:58 <diki> so, any ideas guys?
2404 2011-05-20 12:52:56 ahbritto_ has joined
2405 2011-05-20 12:53:32 <devon_hillard> Speeder: what drama?
2406 2011-05-20 12:53:49 <Speeder> you saw the link devon_hillard ?
2407 2011-05-20 12:53:50 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: so for this db implementation i'm doing for pushpool there's some restrictions on backend ... do you think it's valid behaviour to drop any duplicate shares, eg, put a unique constraint on solution? first to submit a given solution for a target wins?
2408 2011-05-20 12:53:55 <devon_hillard> ah yes
2409 2011-05-20 12:54:05 <sipa> let him talk
2410 2011-05-20 12:54:40 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: the server already checks for dup solutions
2411 2011-05-20 12:54:47 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: and rejects them
2412 2011-05-20 12:54:54 <kluge> interesting post
2413 2011-05-20 12:54:56 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ok so that is valid behaviour then
2414 2011-05-20 12:55:31 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: how does it check for dups if it's not selecting from the db or searching the log?
2415 2011-05-20 12:55:53 <devon_hillard> Speeder: any tl;dr?
2416 2011-05-20 12:56:08 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: yes
2417 2011-05-20 12:56:14 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: RAM cache
2418 2011-05-20 12:56:19 vfxguynz__ has joined
2419 2011-05-20 12:56:19 bitlitegnos has joined
2420 2011-05-20 12:56:47 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: so it currently assumes it's the only pushpoold instance touching a given db, gotcha.
2421 2011-05-20 12:57:14 <jrmithdobbs> hadn't looked at that piece of the code yet, that's why I was asking.
2422 2011-05-20 12:57:22 <bitlitegnos> i just discovered bitcoins so im here to learn forgive me if i dont contribute much like :P
2423 2011-05-20 12:57:24 <diki> jgarzik, look at my pull request
2424 2011-05-20 12:58:08 <devon_hillard> I don't understand the OP, is he on drugs?
2425 2011-05-20 12:59:41 <Speeder> devon_hillard: he is paranoid
2426 2011-05-20 12:59:49 vfxguynz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2427 2011-05-20 12:59:58 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: no; each pushpoold assumes that each solution is unique. nothing to do with database.
2428 2011-05-20 13:00:03 <Speeder> devon_hillard: also he is indian, so his english is strange to native speakers (but to me it makes all the sense)
2429 2011-05-20 13:00:27 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: fundamental to bitcoin and the server pool logic
2430 2011-05-20 13:00:30 <devon_hillard> tl;dr or translation from english to english?
2431 2011-05-20 13:00:57 <Speeder> devon_hillard: the OP thinks Tycho is backed by a banker, and then he throws several theories of what he might be doing...
2432 2011-05-20 13:01:03 <jrmithdobbs> ok, gotcha, short of it is, a unique constraint on solution is perfectly valid
2433 2011-05-20 13:01:10 <devon_hillard> so what, if deepbit gets too big, it gives the pool owner to double-spend coins?
2434 2011-05-20 13:01:17 <jrmithdobbs> that's all I care about for the moment. ;)
2435 2011-05-20 13:01:21 <devon_hillard> i.e. to fuck up with the block chain
2436 2011-05-20 13:01:46 <Speeder> But the basic idea, is that Tycho is using deepbit to sell mintcoins and use the money to buy massive ghash for himself so he can later ruin bitcoin.
2437 2011-05-20 13:01:47 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: short answer is 'yes', long answer is 'not quite ...'
2438 2011-05-20 13:01:48 <devon_hillard> ah, or he has a personal GPU datacenter
2439 2011-05-20 13:01:54 <devon_hillard> hahaha
2440 2011-05-20 13:02:26 <Speeder> do notice that someone DO have 500ghash
2441 2011-05-20 13:02:28 <Speeder> dunno who
2442 2011-05-20 13:02:50 <jrmithdobbs> guessing ArtForzZz (not really)
2443 2011-05-20 13:02:50 <devon_hillard> I calculated that the bitcoin network is using around 2 megawatts of power (considering about 1.5 efficiency)
2444 2011-05-20 13:02:56 <diki> could be the guy who once made a millions points in folding
2445 2011-05-20 13:03:02 <diki> for just one day
2446 2011-05-20 13:03:03 <Speeder> if you look at the graphics on bigcoinwatch you will see that a single machine, or group of machines, connect and disconnect from deepbit and causes a 500ghash variation
2447 2011-05-20 13:03:40 <devon_hillard> the GPU power is vert lob-sided
2448 2011-05-20 13:03:44 <Speeder> Dishwara thinks that this machine belongs to Tycho
2449 2011-05-20 13:03:50 <devon_hillard> very few people have very good hardware
2450 2011-05-20 13:04:04 <devon_hillard> and the proportion of top miners is probably in the 20-50% overall
2451 2011-05-20 13:04:33 <[Tycho]> :)
2452 2011-05-20 13:05:22 <jrmithdobbs> Speeder: i would say that a more likely explanation is international routing issues
2453 2011-05-20 13:05:28 <jrmithdobbs> Speeder: but conspiracy theories are more fun.
2454 2011-05-20 13:05:45 <nanotube> <UukGoblin> [02:31:10] all the bitomat trades between 08:28:32 and 10:56:41 are missing from gribble's feed (tcatm and nanotube I guess) <-- just tcatm. :) gribble says whatever the bcharts feed feeds. :)
2455 2011-05-20 13:05:46 <jrmithdobbs> (to explain that graph)
2456 2011-05-20 13:05:54 <Speeder> jrmithdobbs: what you expect from a community created by cypherpunks
2457 2011-05-20 13:06:07 subpar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2458 2011-05-20 13:07:08 <jrmithdobbs> Speeder: also, i refuse to read that post past the first 2 sentences because it's not english.
2459 2011-05-20 13:07:31 <jrmithdobbs> head already hurt trying to parse just that ;P
2460 2011-05-20 13:07:52 subpar has joined
2461 2011-05-20 13:07:56 <devon_hillard> [Tycho]: what does 'uncirculated coins' mean?
2462 2011-05-20 13:09:00 <UukGoblin> nanotube, but sometimes it lags ;-]
2463 2011-05-20 13:09:46 <Speeder> jrmithdobbs: to me his english looks perfectly fine
2464 2011-05-20 13:09:47 <Speeder> :/
2465 2011-05-20 13:09:52 <devon_hillard> ah, mintcoins, like a wallet.dat file mated to a QR code?
2466 2011-05-20 13:10:01 <ersi> devon_hillard: Coins that has no/little transaction history
2467 2011-05-20 13:10:37 <devon_hillard> ersi: or wallet.dat files containing minted coins but without transaction histories?
2468 2011-05-20 13:10:58 <ersi> hm
2469 2011-05-20 13:11:01 <ersi> no idea
2470 2011-05-20 13:11:34 aps_ has joined
2471 2011-05-20 13:12:12 <Speeder> mintcoions are coins with at most 1 transference
2472 2011-05-20 13:12:22 <Speeder> or 2 sometims
2473 2011-05-20 13:12:38 <devon_hillard> ah, so that dude says they are worth more because of that?
2474 2011-05-20 13:12:52 <Speeder> people trade the wallet.dat (or mybitcoin password, or something like that)
2475 2011-05-20 13:12:54 <jgarzik> devon_hillard: some people think so; most don't care
2476 2011-05-20 13:13:25 <Speeder> it is because without a transaction history, there are nothing to trace
2477 2011-05-20 13:13:27 <bitlitegnos> so the more transaction a bit coin has the more valuable it is?
2478 2011-05-20 13:13:35 <Speeder> bitcoinbulletin: the inverse
2479 2011-05-20 13:13:55 <Speeder> the point of mintcoins is the same of the bitcoinlaundry
2480 2011-05-20 13:14:04 <Speeder> except mintcoins the result is guaranteed
2481 2011-05-20 13:14:08 <Speeder> while with bitcounlaundry not so much
2482 2011-05-20 13:14:53 <bitlitegnos> Hmm
2483 2011-05-20 13:15:06 <devon_hillard> so ok, say [Tycho] is selling these 'mintcoins' for 5:1 on the 'used' bitcoin, who do we care?
2484 2011-05-20 13:15:08 jmorton has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2485 2011-05-20 13:15:17 <devon_hillard> 1:5 I mean :p
2486 2011-05-20 13:15:19 qethree has joined
2487 2011-05-20 13:15:32 <Speeder> devon_hillard: there are no problem in doing that
2488 2011-05-20 13:15:46 <kluge> I think he cares because of the heat it is likely to bring
2489 2011-05-20 13:15:50 <Speeder> devon_hillard: what the OP fears is that Tycho is using the money of that to build a massive machine intended to take bitcoin down
2490 2011-05-20 13:16:06 <Speeder> kinda a case of extreme paranoia
2491 2011-05-20 13:16:13 <jrmithdobbs> i don't getthe accusation at all
2492 2011-05-20 13:16:19 <devon_hillard> you technically need a machine with at least half the network power, right?
2493 2011-05-20 13:16:21 <jrmithdobbs> he's saying he's "cheating" by not cheating
2494 2011-05-20 13:16:24 <Speeder> jrmithdobbs: the OP believes Tycho is a agent of bankers/government
2495 2011-05-20 13:16:25 <jrmithdobbs> makes no fuckin sense
2496 2011-05-20 13:16:29 <devon_hillard> so you can impose your own separate fake block chain
2497 2011-05-20 13:16:40 <[Tycho]> I think it's about coins without transfers at all.
2498 2011-05-20 13:17:10 <devon_hillard> but even then, I can't imagine you could double-spend that many coins
2499 2011-05-20 13:17:34 <jrmithdobbs> Speeder: basically, dude is retarded.
2500 2011-05-20 13:18:49 <Speeder> jrmithdobbs: I do not think he is retarded, the plot he thinks Tycho is doing is not something easy to think about, he is only more paranoid than the average
2501 2011-05-20 13:19:01 <Speeder> and was not intelligent enough to keep his mouth shut
2502 2011-05-20 13:19:09 <devon_hillard> one way I can think of cheating is to take advantage of the 10 minute window and bring online a huge capacity before the network had time to increase difficulty
2503 2011-05-20 13:19:11 <Speeder> (usually paranoid people investigate alone and trust noone...)
2504 2011-05-20 13:19:27 <bitlitegnos> ^o^
2505 2011-05-20 13:19:52 <devon_hillard> but by huge capacity I mean whole datacenters, draining megawatts of power :p
2506 2011-05-20 13:19:56 slush has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2507 2011-05-20 13:20:18 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: how does that help you?
2508 2011-05-20 13:20:28 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: makes more sense to bring them up right after a difficulty change.
2509 2011-05-20 13:20:40 <jrmithdobbs> now you've got 2016 blocks you can churn through quick.
2510 2011-05-20 13:21:47 larsivi has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2511 2011-05-20 13:22:16 larsivi has joined
2512 2011-05-20 13:22:27 <devon_hillard> yeah, right after a block was found
2513 2011-05-20 13:22:45 <devon_hillard> still, the investment is not worth it
2514 2011-05-20 13:22:49 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: anyways, it's hard as shit to get mass quantities of machines for this purpose ready to go all at once
2515 2011-05-20 13:23:05 <jrmithdobbs> and you lose money not bringing them up as soon as they're ready
2516 2011-05-20 13:23:08 <jrmithdobbs> so it makes no sense
2517 2011-05-20 13:23:49 <devon_hillard> if you had $1mil, you could afford cheap racks filled with gpus
2518 2011-05-20 13:23:59 <devon_hillard> with volume deals
2519 2011-05-20 13:24:36 <jrmithdobbs> you'd still lose money every second a machine that is ready to go but is not online sits there
2520 2011-05-20 13:24:40 <jrmithdobbs> it's bad business
2521 2011-05-20 13:24:57 <jrmithdobbs> and sourcing the parts isn't the issue, assembling them is
2522 2011-05-20 13:24:59 <devon_hillard> yep
2523 2011-05-20 13:25:11 <devon_hillard> source them pre-assembled
2524 2011-05-20 13:25:23 <devon_hillard> any hardware vendor would be happy to negotiate a single deal like that
2525 2011-05-20 13:25:48 <devon_hillard> the bigger problem is getting a power source
2526 2011-05-20 13:25:56 <jrmithdobbs> but again, letting the vendor assemble means more time between assembly and production since you'll get them in lots
2527 2011-05-20 13:26:00 pnicholson has joined
2528 2011-05-20 13:26:02 <jrmithdobbs> so still, bad business
2529 2011-05-20 13:26:03 <devon_hillard> not easy to secure a 900kw line
2530 2011-05-20 13:26:35 <jgarzik> heh
2531 2011-05-20 13:26:39 <jrmithdobbs> lead times on pre-assembled for specialized stuff is 3-6 weeks
2532 2011-05-20 13:26:43 <jrmithdobbs> it's an awful idea
2533 2011-05-20 13:26:47 <jrmithdobbs> heh
2534 2011-05-20 13:29:16 <devon_hillard> also, people complaining that drug dealers use bitcoin
2535 2011-05-20 13:29:19 <devon_hillard> lol
2536 2011-05-20 13:29:34 <diki> i am trying to understand what is this double spending...
2537 2011-05-20 13:29:53 <devon_hillard> 'yeah, i'll keep my money in a currency that fluctuates by 1-10 in a few days'
2538 2011-05-20 13:30:20 <devon_hillard> diki: Say you have 1K coins
2539 2011-05-20 13:30:25 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: huh no those guys only keep it as btc for as long as the txn takes i'd wager
2540 2011-05-20 13:31:13 <devon_hillard> diki: if you have a cluster that's powerful enough, you can generate more blocks than the whole network
2541 2011-05-20 13:31:41 <devon_hillard> diki: you could manipulate your transaction history to show that you didn't spend those money, then impose the longer block chain on the whole network
2542 2011-05-20 13:31:56 <jrmithdobbs> the ammount of power needed to do it quickly and on a large enough scale to not be revertable is quite prohiibitive
2543 2011-05-20 13:33:53 guy_ has joined
2544 2011-05-20 13:34:30 asdf_ has joined
2545 2011-05-20 13:35:36 <asdf_> 2 FPGA clusters with 156 FPGAs per machine? hmmm: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8543.0
2546 2011-05-20 13:36:12 <asdf_> > all of deepbit + slush together in a single box?
2547 2011-05-20 13:37:16 <devon_hillard> perhaps some people in china with access to ASIC tools may think of making their own cluster
2548 2011-05-20 13:37:38 <devon_hillard> would need somewhere around $1m I believe :p
2549 2011-05-20 13:38:39 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: ArtForzZz has a working asic implementation already
2550 2011-05-20 13:38:44 <jrmithdobbs> devon_hillard: on the live net.
2551 2011-05-20 13:38:46 <sipa> not real asic
2552 2011-05-20 13:38:57 <jrmithdobbs> close enough
2553 2011-05-20 13:39:02 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2554 2011-05-20 13:39:03 <jrmithdobbs> he just hasn't scaledi t
2555 2011-05-20 13:39:09 <diki> do you guys get mentally exausted when doing something on the computer?
2556 2011-05-20 13:39:18 <diki> I am really sleepy now...
2557 2011-05-20 13:39:38 <sipa> it's a structured asic - both significantly cheaper and less efficient than a real custom-developeed asic
2558 2011-05-20 13:39:39 molecular has joined
2559 2011-05-20 13:39:41 <diki> *exhausted
2560 2011-05-20 13:39:51 <sipa> but it is doing 20-30 Ghash/s, i believe
2561 2011-05-20 13:40:16 <jrmithdobbs> something like that yes
2562 2011-05-20 13:40:41 <asdf_> 2.8 trillion hashes per second.
2563 2011-05-20 13:42:17 <sipa> .. wtf
2564 2011-05-20 13:42:22 <sipa> this is going up very quickly
2565 2011-05-20 13:46:19 <asdf_> 'That's the problem with cryptographic money systems. If you can do it in software you can do it in hardware faster.
2566 2011-05-20 13:46:32 <asdf_> ehhhh
2567 2011-05-20 13:47:29 <gmaxwell> asdf_: Latregetic's figures were nonsense, I pointed them out later in the thread.
2568 2011-05-20 13:47:32 <joepie91> possibly interesting news, German Pirate Party servers were raided, supposedly because of a PiratenPad pad: http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/8/149873
2569 2011-05-20 13:47:56 euclid has left ("Leaving")
2570 2011-05-20 13:48:51 <TD> ArtForz already built his own structured ASICs for mining
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2581 2011-05-20 14:00:17 <Alexees> which files should i treasure the most ? only wallet.dat is enough ?
2582 2011-05-20 14:01:04 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2583 2011-05-20 14:01:38 bigbeard has joined
2584 2011-05-20 14:01:39 <khalahan_> Alexees > yes
2585 2011-05-20 14:01:49 <bigbeard> Hy peeps
2586 2011-05-20 14:01:55 Kurtov has joined
2587 2011-05-20 14:02:25 <bigbeard> any poclbm devs here?
2588 2011-05-20 14:03:17 <bigbeard> cause i'm having an interesting effect when using it...
2589 2011-05-20 14:03:52 <sipa> m0mchil isn't here
2590 2011-05-20 14:04:26 <bigbeard> thnx.,
2591 2011-05-20 14:04:48 underscor has joined
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2600 2011-05-20 14:15:33 node is now known as Guest716
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2610 2011-05-20 14:41:21 dukeleto has joined
2611 2011-05-20 14:41:45 <mndrix> whom should I ask about a forum password reset? I requested one on the forum 2 days ago, but the email never came
2612 2011-05-20 14:42:57 <Guest716> FPGA
2613 2011-05-20 14:43:09 <Guest716> it will solve i
2614 2011-05-20 14:43:10 <Guest716> it
2615 2011-05-20 14:44:29 <MrHako> If i create a bootable USB from windows using an app called unetbooting and place a ubuntu live disc on it - it loads up fine booting and showing options to install etc. I have a file called atiflash.chg - and i need to get some terminal going to use it from the usb. How do i do that from here?
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2619 2011-05-20 14:48:16 <tamro> so, what fun projects are being worked on?
2620 2011-05-20 14:48:34 <diki> another pool, porting pushpoold to windows...lot's of things
2621 2011-05-20 14:49:00 <Guest716> MrHako: Wipe the Windows out completely. There is no reason to have windows in this day and age. It is a magnet for viruses.
2622 2011-05-20 14:49:03 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
2623 2011-05-20 14:49:35 <MrHako> Guest716 windows is not the problem on this rare occasion ;)
2624 2011-05-20 14:49:42 <sipa> good morning, ArtForz? :)
2625 2011-05-20 14:53:10 mndrix has left ()
2626 2011-05-20 14:53:11 <mtrlt> yes! after days of frantic development on my miner, finally i got an accepted share! :P
2627 2011-05-20 14:53:37 <jrmithdobbs> i just replaced a wireless bridge with a wire
2628 2011-05-20 14:53:40 <jrmithdobbs> it wans't fun tho
2629 2011-05-20 14:53:48 <jrmithdobbs> s/wans/wasn/
2630 2011-05-20 14:53:58 <tamro> pool mining?
2631 2011-05-20 14:54:08 <jrmithdobbs> tftp fuckin sucks with the retransmitts on wifi
2632 2011-05-20 14:55:12 hatmaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2633 2011-05-20 14:56:50 rutrader has joined
2634 2011-05-20 14:57:34 <tamro> anyone working with PHP bitcoin projects?
2635 2011-05-20 14:58:30 Netsniper has joined
2636 2011-05-20 14:58:43 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.251.236.160|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2640 2011-05-20 15:08:45 <JunK-Y> ;;gpg register
2641 2011-05-20 15:08:46 <gribble> (gpg register <nick> <keyid> [<keyserver>]) -- Register your GPG identity, associating GPG key <keyid> with <nick>. <keyid> is a 16 digit key id, with or without the '0x' prefix. Optional <keyserver> argument tells us where to get your public key. By default we look on pgp.mit.edu and pgp.surfnet.nl. You will be given a random passphrase to clearsign with your key, and submit to the bot (1 more message)
2642 2011-05-20 15:09:14 IncitatusOnWater has joined
2643 2011-05-20 15:09:14 <JunK-Y> ;;gpg register JunK-Y 585C5326F49E7D76
2644 2011-05-20 15:09:14 <gribble> Request successful for user JunK-Y, hostmask JunK-Y!~junky@pdpc/supporter/active/junk-y. Your challenge string is: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:6369fedbb42f76345097b3229678b1f7646e06807421929fd4ba46cb1fa24d6e
2645 2011-05-20 15:09:23 <sipa> JunK-Y: #bitcoin-otc :0
2646 2011-05-20 15:09:28 <JunK-Y> oops
2647 2011-05-20 15:10:38 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2648 2011-05-20 15:11:10 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2649 2011-05-20 15:16:13 Nicksasa has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
2650 2011-05-20 15:17:09 ar4s has joined
2651 2011-05-20 15:18:31 <jrmithdobbs> Ask 7 968.92
2652 2011-05-20 15:18:37 <jrmithdobbs> lol no wonder market's capped
2653 2011-05-20 15:20:05 vfxguynz__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2654 2011-05-20 15:20:33 vfxguynz__ has joined
2655 2011-05-20 15:20:50 <tamro> capped?
2656 2011-05-20 15:26:06 <JunK-Y> ;;gpg eauth JunK-Y
2657 2011-05-20 15:26:06 <gribble> Error: This nick is not registered. Please register.
2658 2011-05-20 15:26:34 Kurtov has joined
2659 2011-05-20 15:27:57 cenuij has joined
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2661 2011-05-20 15:27:57 cenuij has joined
2662 2011-05-20 15:29:53 Ampix0 has joined
2663 2011-05-20 15:30:13 <Ampix0> hey
2664 2011-05-20 15:31:02 <tamro> hey
2665 2011-05-20 15:31:28 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 1
2666 2011-05-20 15:31:29 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 4.11989234213e-06 BTC per day and 1.71662180922e-07 BTC per hour.
2667 2011-05-20 15:31:40 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2668 2011-05-20 15:32:04 <tamro> 0.00000017/hour
2669 2011-05-20 15:32:19 <tamro> ;;bc,gen 1000
2670 2011-05-20 15:32:20 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.00411989234213 BTC per day and 0.000171662180922 BTC per hour.
2671 2011-05-20 15:32:35 <Ampix0> Hey I know im about to ask a super noob question, I just dont deal enough with hardware to know
2672 2011-05-20 15:32:47 <tamro> i'm so confused between Mhash/s, Khash/s, Khps, Mhps. etc etc
2673 2011-05-20 15:32:51 <Ampix0> PIC-e is different than Pic-express right?
2674 2011-05-20 15:32:59 <Ampix0> pic-express*
2675 2011-05-20 15:33:07 <tamro> ;;bc,gen 10000
2676 2011-05-20 15:33:08 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.0411989234213 BTC per day and 0.00171662180922 BTC per hour.
2677 2011-05-20 15:33:28 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 42950
2678 2011-05-20 15:33:29 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 42950 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.176949376094 BTC per day and 0.0073728906706 BTC per hour.
2679 2011-05-20 15:34:33 <tamro> Khps = ?
2680 2011-05-20 15:35:01 eao has joined
2681 2011-05-20 15:35:11 <tamro> kilohertz per second?
2682 2011-05-20 15:35:20 <JFK911> hash
2683 2011-05-20 15:35:23 <Astrohacker> hey guys i have a question about the techincal details of bitcoin i'm hoping someone can answer
2684 2011-05-20 15:35:27 <tamro> ah
2685 2011-05-20 15:35:30 <Astrohacker> i'm confused about the "network" that bitcoin uses
2686 2011-05-20 15:35:34 <tamro> Khps = Khash/s
2687 2011-05-20 15:35:38 <Astrohacker> how do peers find other peers to connect to?
2688 2011-05-20 15:35:50 AnatolV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2689 2011-05-20 15:35:54 <tamro> 1 khps * 1000 = 1 mhps
2690 2011-05-20 15:35:58 <Ampix0> Im not 100% sure how the system works either
2691 2011-05-20 15:36:17 <Ampix0> The whole thing is incredibly confusing
2692 2011-05-20 15:36:18 <tamro> astrohacker: just the internet.. tcp/ip
2693 2011-05-20 15:36:26 <Astrohacker> yes but how do they know what IPs to connect to?
2694 2011-05-20 15:36:29 <sipa> 1000 k = M
2695 2011-05-20 15:36:30 <JFK911> irc
2696 2011-05-20 15:36:36 <JFK911> it uses irc, Astrohacker
2697 2011-05-20 15:36:41 <sipa> 1000 M = G
2698 2011-05-20 15:37:15 <Astrohacker> so does it have to rely on that IRC server to be operating for the network to work?
2699 2011-05-20 15:37:22 <Ampix0> Someone explain to me what the deal is with confirmations of transactions?
2700 2011-05-20 15:37:25 <tamro> 1000 G = sitting pretty
2701 2011-05-20 15:37:37 <tamro> no, irc is just an extra
2702 2011-05-20 15:37:43 <Ampix0> how is it confirmed what is confirming do
2703 2011-05-20 15:38:26 <Astrohacker> tamro: really? so if the IRC server went down, existing peers would still be connected to the peers they were already connected to?
2704 2011-05-20 15:39:28 <j0h_> i have a question, i have a ati hd 6990 runing with the guiminer version 5.1.2011 , i'm getting 300-330Mhash/s for each it is fine? or i can get more mhash for each?
2705 2011-05-20 15:39:34 bill_stickers has joined
2706 2011-05-20 15:39:55 Guest716 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2707 2011-05-20 15:40:22 <gmaxwell> j0h_: #bitcoin-mining is where you should ask
2708 2011-05-20 15:40:27 <sipa> Astrohacker: nodes keep a list of IP addresses they've succesfully connected to
2709 2011-05-20 15:40:41 <sipa> and you can pass -addnode on the command line to force it to connect to a particular IP
2710 2011-05-20 15:40:48 <j0h_> ooo i see , sorry , ty
2711 2011-05-20 15:40:58 <luke-jr> and/or #eligius
2712 2011-05-20 15:41:04 <sipa> Ampix0: a confirmation is simply how deep it is in the block chain
2713 2011-05-20 15:41:09 <Astrohacker> sipa: ah ok... so suppose i connect to another node... can i get a list of nodes that node is conncted to?
2714 2011-05-20 15:41:20 j0h_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2715 2011-05-20 15:41:27 <sipa> Astrohacker: indeed, nodes exchange IP addresses themselves through the p2p protocol as well
2716 2011-05-20 15:41:50 <Astrohacker> sipa: awesome, thank you. that answers my question. so the network exists like a web of connections.
2717 2011-05-20 15:42:46 <sipa> Astrohacker: a block is a list of transactions a miner "votes" for, plus it "votes" for all transactions in a block it mentions - all all blocks before that one
2718 2011-05-20 15:43:03 <sipa> that was for Ampix0
2719 2011-05-20 15:43:16 BurningToad1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2720 2011-05-20 15:43:34 <Ampix0> Ya i still dont get it XD but thats ok
2721 2011-05-20 15:43:35 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
2722 2011-05-20 15:44:50 <sipa> Ampix0: read the introduction on the wiki, maybe
2723 2011-05-20 15:45:24 Kurtov has joined
2724 2011-05-20 15:45:26 <Ampix0> Ya ill have to re-read everything this stuff is really complicated..
2725 2011-05-20 15:45:32 sytse has joined
2726 2011-05-20 15:45:52 <Astrohacker> one cool thing is that since it is open source, we can look at the source code. i will do that here at some point.
2727 2011-05-20 15:47:15 underscor has joined
2728 2011-05-20 15:54:42 Titeuf_87 has joined
2729 2011-05-20 15:55:24 tamro has left ()
2730 2011-05-20 15:56:07 Ampix0 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2731 2011-05-20 15:56:35 jiunec has joined
2732 2011-05-20 15:57:00 cenuij has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2733 2011-05-20 16:02:52 <JunK-Y> ;;getrating gjs278
2734 2011-05-20 16:02:52 <gribble> Error: This user has not yet been rated.
2735 2011-05-20 16:03:16 <Astrohacker> hey guys i have an idea for a service called Filecoin, which will be like a distributed Dropbox based on bitcoin
2736 2011-05-20 16:03:20 <Astrohacker> has anyone ever had that idea before?
2737 2011-05-20 16:03:28 <sipa> what advantage does it have?
2738 2011-05-20 16:03:39 <Astrohacker> the advantage would be enormous redundancy for your files
2739 2011-05-20 16:03:45 <Astrohacker> every node saves every file
2740 2011-05-20 16:03:50 <Astrohacker> would only work for tiny files
2741 2011-05-20 16:03:55 <sipa> do you think that will scale?
2742 2011-05-20 16:04:04 <UukGoblin> hahah
2743 2011-05-20 16:04:04 <Astrohacker> probably so long as we're talking really tiny files
2744 2011-05-20 16:04:15 <UukGoblin> another blockchain "theft" I presume ;-]
2745 2011-05-20 16:04:27 <UukGoblin> Astrohacker, are you thinking of storing the actual files in the bitcoin blockchain? :-]
2746 2011-05-20 16:04:55 <Astrohacker> UukGoblin: no, it wouldn't be the same as bitcoin exactly. it would have to be a new protocol, similar to bitcoin
2747 2011-05-20 16:04:58 <Astrohacker> but it would work like this
2748 2011-05-20 16:05:17 <Astrohacker> miners do some kind of verification on files, or storage of files, in order to get coins
2749 2011-05-20 16:05:25 <Astrohacker> and it costs coins in order to put a file on the network
2750 2011-05-20 16:05:39 <sipa> why not use freenet?
2751 2011-05-20 16:05:46 <Astrohacker> not bitcoins, mind you... it would cost filecoins, a new kind of coin
2752 2011-05-20 16:05:51 <Astrohacker> what's freenet?
2753 2011-05-20 16:06:19 <sipa> exactly what you describe, but without the massive overhead of maintaining a synchronized block chain over the entire planet
2754 2011-05-20 16:07:28 <Astriks> ../src/gtk/dialog.cpp(156): assert "Assert failure" failed in EndModal(): either wxDialog:EndModal called twice or ShowModal wasn't called
2755 2011-05-20 16:07:36 <sipa> Astrohacker: which version?
2756 2011-05-20 16:07:45 <Astrohacker> sipa: how are files saved on freenet? what is the incentive for saving and serving a bunch of the freenet files?
2757 2011-05-20 16:08:51 <sipa> the incentive is having your own files stored
2758 2011-05-20 16:09:04 <Astrohacker> so in order to have your own files stored, you have to store other files too?
2759 2011-05-20 16:09:10 <sipa> yes
2760 2011-05-20 16:09:18 <Astrohacker> ok i see. thanks for the info.
2761 2011-05-20 16:09:49 <Astriks> Ok here is the log http://pastebin.com/pmqMkxtB
2762 2011-05-20 16:11:23 <BlueMatt> Astriks: which versioN/
2763 2011-05-20 16:11:29 <Astriks> ;;bt_stat
2764 2011-05-20 16:11:29 <gribble> Error: "bt_stat" is not a valid command.
2765 2011-05-20 16:11:38 <BlueMatt> Astriks: was fixed in 0.3.22 rc2
2766 2011-05-20 16:11:39 <Astriks> BlueMatt; from the homepage
2767 2011-05-20 16:11:40 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
2768 2011-05-20 16:11:41 <bd_> Astrohacker: If you don't store files, both storing and retreiving files on freenet gets _very_ slow
2769 2011-05-20 16:11:42 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125326 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1681 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 18 hours, 35 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 325721.04833195
2770 2011-05-20 16:11:43 <Astriks> afaik
2771 2011-05-20 16:11:54 <BlueMatt> yea it has been fixed...
2772 2011-05-20 16:11:59 <BlueMatt> problem is that still should never happen
2773 2011-05-20 16:11:59 <Astriks> thnks sipa
2774 2011-05-20 16:12:01 <Astriks> ok BlueMatt
2775 2011-05-20 16:12:07 <bd_> Astrohacker: If you do store files, the speed goes from _very_ slow to merely _quite_ slow ;)
2776 2011-05-20 16:12:23 <Astrohacker> bd_: haha i see
2777 2011-05-20 16:12:33 <BlueMatt> Astriks: any special circumstances, beside just sending coins
2778 2011-05-20 16:12:47 <BlueMatt> (like potential for corrupted wallet or something?)
2779 2011-05-20 16:12:49 Mad7Scientist has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2780 2011-05-20 16:13:36 <Astriks> no BlueMatt
2781 2011-05-20 16:13:41 <Astriks> just sending
2782 2011-05-20 16:13:43 <Astriks> :P
2783 2011-05-20 16:14:01 <BlueMatt> hm...yea that should never happen, did you try again and did it work?
2784 2011-05-20 16:16:42 <Astriks> yeah
2785 2011-05-20 16:16:49 <Astriks> it was when i did not set an fee
2786 2011-05-20 16:17:09 <BlueMatt> oh...hmmm well that sounds like a more important bug...
2787 2011-05-20 16:17:24 <BlueMatt> so what, you didnt set a fee in the options dialog then attempted to send?
2788 2011-05-20 16:17:58 <erbs> sup its a wonderful day in the bitcommunity!
2789 2011-05-20 16:18:08 <erbs> sipa+++
2790 2011-05-20 16:18:17 <BlueMatt> any special reason?
2791 2011-05-20 16:18:42 Jaagu has joined
2792 2011-05-20 16:18:49 <jrmithdobbs> erbs: ?
2793 2011-05-20 16:18:52 <sipa> to what do i owe this honor? :)
2794 2011-05-20 16:19:15 <wumpus> so why is doing it in hardware faster an actual problem?
2795 2011-05-20 16:19:24 <wumpus> eh wrong window
2796 2011-05-20 16:19:57 <jrmithdobbs> it's not, difficulty algorithm compensates for that
2797 2011-05-20 16:20:03 Jaagu has left ()
2798 2011-05-20 16:20:05 <jrmithdobbs> whether you were in the wrong window or not ;P
2799 2011-05-20 16:20:25 <jrmithdobbs> only becomes a problem when hardware is fast enough to break sha256
2800 2011-05-20 16:21:06 krekbwoy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2801 2011-05-20 16:21:10 <wumpus> that'd be pretty impressive
2802 2011-05-20 16:21:12 <BlueMatt> quantum computers will kill bitcoin...we should all sell while we still can ;P
2803 2011-05-20 16:21:16 Jaagu has joined
2804 2011-05-20 16:21:20 <phantomcircuit> blueadept, hehe
2805 2011-05-20 16:22:09 <bd_> I'm not aware of any proof that SHA256 would be faster to reverse with a quantum computer.... :)
2806 2011-05-20 16:22:17 <kluge> quantum computers won't kill much :)
2807 2011-05-20 16:22:30 <wumpus> they will kill us all!
2808 2011-05-20 16:22:39 <BlueMatt> bd_: no, but they will kill ecdsa so...
2809 2011-05-20 16:22:40 <bd_> and more to the point, I'm not aware of any quantum computer with even 64 qubits, much less the thousands needed to perform SHA256 :)
2810 2011-05-20 16:22:46 sytse has quit (Quit: reboot)
2811 2011-05-20 16:22:53 <BlueMatt> (it was very sarcastic)
2812 2011-05-20 16:22:53 <bd_> BlueMatt: ah. point.
2813 2011-05-20 16:22:59 <wood> ;;bc,gen 1751000
2814 2011-05-20 16:23:00 <phantomcircuit> bd_, no but there is a generalized oneway function reverse with quantum computation, although the specific implementation mgith be problematic
2815 2011-05-20 16:23:01 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1751000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 7.21393149106 BTC per day and 0.300580478794 BTC per hour.
2816 2011-05-20 16:23:15 <bd_> phantomcircuit: what's the time/space complexities on that?
2817 2011-05-20 16:23:21 <wumpus> but cracking sha256 by brute force simply isn't realistic, on any hardware... some smart cryptographer might find a shortcut, though
2818 2011-05-20 16:23:31 <jrmithdobbs> we got plenty of time to fix crypto in general before quantum computing becomes an issue
2819 2011-05-20 16:23:32 <wood> ;;bc,gen 1051000
2820 2011-05-20 16:23:33 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1051000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 4.33000685158 BTC per day and 0.180416952149 BTC per hour.
2821 2011-05-20 16:23:40 <BlueMatt> but a shortcut just means mining gets harder
2822 2011-05-20 16:24:05 sytse has joined
2823 2011-05-20 16:24:17 <wumpus> anyway I guess it is not impossible to switch bitcoin to a different hashing scheme, just very difficult
2824 2011-05-20 16:24:28 <wumpus> as everyone will have to agree
2825 2011-05-20 16:24:39 <BlueMatt> yep, but weve got quite a while till we have to deal with any of that
2826 2011-05-20 16:24:54 <wumpus> right, I don't mean that we should, sha256 is the best choice now
2827 2011-05-20 16:25:30 <erbs> the sha-256 of iran
2828 2011-05-20 16:26:02 <BlueMatt> be4ac6d37d53abdef5b060253814564ceb62b09f59b27f3f8cac5401fa35b5e0
2829 2011-05-20 16:26:03 <BlueMatt> ?
2830 2011-05-20 16:26:22 <erbs> d-wave
2831 2011-05-20 16:26:26 <BlueMatt> or I suppose without the \n its d4328f17fc46dfde5a0a2cbc09fd28abab29b0e63dba80133a212e2403361cf4
2832 2011-05-20 16:27:05 <BlueMatt> Im confused
2833 2011-05-20 16:27:36 <wumpus> d-wave is doing some interesting stuff, but I'm pretty sure they can'tbe used for speeding up crypto
2834 2011-05-20 16:27:57 <phantomcircuit> bd_, iirc it's linear
2835 2011-05-20 16:27:59 <BlueMatt> oh the company
2836 2011-05-20 16:28:01 <phantomcircuit> bd_, so trivial
2837 2011-05-20 16:28:39 <erbs> hehe
2838 2011-05-20 16:28:43 <wumpus> how can you even reverse a one-way function? it's a many-to-one mapping
2839 2011-05-20 16:29:07 <erbs> yeah dwave is definitely interesting.. but its unclear their device can actually compute anything useful, much less do so more efficiently than a classical pyuter
2840 2011-05-20 16:29:15 <wumpus> exactly
2841 2011-05-20 16:29:27 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, you try every possibility simultaneously, which is more or less how quantum computers work
2842 2011-05-20 16:29:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: you could enumerate feasible inputs, or find one with a particular property (e.g. the smallest input that gives that output)
2843 2011-05-20 16:29:31 mosi has joined
2844 2011-05-20 16:29:53 <phantomcircuit> however i dont think we'll see one in our lifetimes
2845 2011-05-20 16:29:53 <phantomcircuit> so
2846 2011-05-20 16:29:54 <phantomcircuit> meh
2847 2011-05-20 16:29:55 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: more less than more.
2848 2011-05-20 16:29:57 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: so you get almost infinitely many inputs back, because there's so many different inputs that hash to the same sha256
2849 2011-05-20 16:30:12 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, no you only get the right answer back
2850 2011-05-20 16:30:25 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, which is why quantum computers are such a cool idea
2851 2011-05-20 16:30:35 <wumpus> my point is that there is no one 'right answer' in this case, there are many
2852 2011-05-20 16:30:40 <phantomcircuit> oh i see
2853 2011-05-20 16:30:54 <erbs> dna computer
2854 2011-05-20 16:30:56 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, not a problem really since you'd just stop running after the first answer
2855 2011-05-20 16:31:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: grovers search is just faster when it's many to one and you only need one feasable solution.
2856 2011-05-20 16:31:09 <wumpus> you can't 'stop running' if they are all going in parallel
2857 2011-05-20 16:31:09 <BlueMatt> still...the break of dsa via qcomputers is more interesting form a bitcoin perspective
2858 2011-05-20 16:31:13 <wumpus> they'll already have run
2859 2011-05-20 16:31:30 <gmaxwell> thats not how QC's workâ thats the lies for children version.
2860 2011-05-20 16:32:22 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, is there any mechanism for trading btc that doesn't involve public key crypto yet?
2861 2011-05-20 16:32:25 <wumpus> anyway it's very interesting
2862 2011-05-20 16:32:39 <gmaxwell> ha.. wikipedia even says that grover's is faster with more than one match.
2863 2011-05-20 16:32:47 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: hm, not sure dont think you could but maybe somehow via scripts...
2864 2011-05-20 16:32:50 kika_ has joined
2865 2011-05-20 16:32:59 <sipa> password-based should be possible
2866 2011-05-20 16:33:00 <gmaxwell> oh, but you need to know how many matches there are odd.. I'd have to think for a while onthat.
2867 2011-05-20 16:33:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i was trying to figure out how to do it but wouldn't think of any mechanism
2868 2011-05-20 16:33:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: is there symmetric in scripts?
2869 2011-05-20 16:33:25 <gmaxwell> You can easily make a password script.
2870 2011-05-20 16:33:27 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it's definitely possible, but you'll need a shared secret
2871 2011-05-20 16:33:32 <gmaxwell> you use a hash on a secret.
2872 2011-05-20 16:33:32 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, if such a mechanism can be built with hashing and symmetric crypto it would be significantly faster
2873 2011-05-20 16:33:32 <BlueMatt> I suppose you can just do a hash
2874 2011-05-20 16:33:35 <BlueMatt> yea that would work
2875 2011-05-20 16:33:42 <sipa> BlueMatt: there is sha256...
2876 2011-05-20 16:33:43 <sipa> indeed
2877 2011-05-20 16:33:47 <sipa> (sorry, very laggy connection)
2878 2011-05-20 16:33:50 NichoV has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2879 2011-05-20 16:34:01 <BlueMatt> though...mitm might be a problem there, but whatever
2880 2011-05-20 16:34:03 <BlueMatt> g2g dinner
2881 2011-05-20 16:34:11 <phantomcircuit> oh i remember
2882 2011-05-20 16:34:16 <erbs> there is a species of silkworm that computes sha256 in its entrails.. if you could breed them en-masse in a vat, you'd have unlimited hashing power
2883 2011-05-20 16:34:18 NichoV has joined
2884 2011-05-20 16:34:27 <phantomcircuit> you need something like op_CHECKSIG for the hash for the symetric
2885 2011-05-20 16:34:33 <phantomcircuit> which doesn't exist
2886 2011-05-20 16:34:44 <kika_> what function is called to know whats the hash on the prev block on the main chain ? i mean to get the prev block hash thats using when trying to generate a block ?
2887 2011-05-20 16:34:52 octarine has joined
2888 2011-05-20 16:35:05 samfisher has joined
2889 2011-05-20 16:35:29 <samfisher> where can I see how many bitcoins is one euro?
2890 2011-05-20 16:35:43 <erbs> bitcoincharts.com
2891 2011-05-20 16:35:45 <sipa> kika_: pindexBest refers to the tip of the best chain
2892 2011-05-20 16:35:51 <gmaxwell> samfisher: how many euro are in one bitcoin you mean.
2893 2011-05-20 16:35:59 Jaagu has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2894 2011-05-20 16:36:04 <kika_> sipa: ok thxs do you know which file is it defined in ?
2895 2011-05-20 16:36:09 <phantomcircuit> sipa, technically it refers to the longest head
2896 2011-05-20 16:36:11 <sipa> kika_: main.cpp
2897 2011-05-20 16:36:16 <kika_> k
2898 2011-05-20 16:36:17 eao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2899 2011-05-20 16:36:23 <sipa> phantomcircuit: not necessarily
2900 2011-05-20 16:36:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, tip implies a list
2901 2011-05-20 16:36:47 <kika_> so whats the fastest miner out there? poclbm ?
2902 2011-05-20 16:36:50 <samfisher> gmaxwell: no, viceversa
2903 2011-05-20 16:36:57 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it is a list :)
2904 2011-05-20 16:37:04 <samfisher> 1 euro = 0.000n bitcoins
2905 2011-05-20 16:37:09 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no it's not :)
2906 2011-05-20 16:37:26 <sipa> ... it's a linked list in the implementation
2907 2011-05-20 16:37:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the implementation throws away a lot of information that could improve the system
2908 2011-05-20 16:38:11 <erbs> sipa, btw, can i use your patch? (is it for new blocks only or old too)
2909 2011-05-20 16:38:17 <sipa> erbs: which one?
2910 2011-05-20 16:38:36 <erbs> for the new ecdsa signature
2911 2011-05-20 16:39:08 <sipa> erbs: compactsigs? sure, but it doesn't change anything, just adds CompactSign and CompactVerify functions
2912 2011-05-20 16:39:38 <sipa> phantomcircuit: that doesn't change the fact the the longest block chain is, by definition, a list
2913 2011-05-20 16:39:45 <sipa> s/longest/best/
2914 2011-05-20 16:39:57 <sipa> and the tip of which pindexBest refers to
2915 2011-05-20 16:40:01 octarine has left ()
2916 2011-05-20 16:40:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, sure except it's not guaranteed to remain the longest
2917 2011-05-20 16:40:17 <sipa> nor did i ever claim that
2918 2011-05-20 16:40:34 <phantomcircuit> no but generally a list would
2919 2011-05-20 16:40:43 rli has left ()
2920 2011-05-20 16:40:47 quup_ has joined
2921 2011-05-20 16:40:49 <sipa> pointless discussion :)
2922 2011-05-20 16:41:02 <phantomcircuit> hehe
2923 2011-05-20 16:41:44 <sipa> anyway, kika_: pindexBest refers to the tip of the list of block header datastructures, which constitute the current best known block chain
2924 2011-05-20 16:42:21 <erbs> sipa - ahh ok understood
2925 2011-05-20 16:42:46 <samfisher> do we have a prestashop module for btc?
2926 2011-05-20 16:43:05 <sipa> erbs: using it in real blocks would require an update to the script language, and this would require a backward-incompayble change
2927 2011-05-20 16:43:12 <kika_> sipa: i see
2928 2011-05-20 16:44:03 <phantomcircuit> hahah i just realized that symetric key crypto is actualyl totally doable
2929 2011-05-20 16:44:19 <phantomcircuit> requires a single new op
2930 2011-05-20 16:44:39 quup has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2931 2011-05-20 16:44:46 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: ?
2932 2011-05-20 16:44:50 <kika_> pindexNew->bnChainWork > bnBestChainWork
2933 2011-05-20 16:44:54 <phantomcircuit> one sec ill do a quick write up
2934 2011-05-20 16:46:04 quup_ is now known as quup
2935 2011-05-20 16:46:05 <erbs> sipa yeah - im sure at some point there will be a bc-breaking upgrade to get in all the cool new features
2936 2011-05-20 16:46:13 <samfisher> am i readable
2937 2011-05-20 16:46:29 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but insecure
2938 2011-05-20 16:46:46 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: also, new ops are out of the question
2939 2011-05-20 16:47:22 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: why out of the question? they hit old nodes that don't understand them fine, new nodes will
2940 2011-05-20 16:47:42 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: and then the block chain forks
2941 2011-05-20 16:48:22 <kika_> where is CBlockIndex defined?
2942 2011-05-20 16:48:23 <jrmithdobbs> err ya good point
2943 2011-05-20 16:48:24 <jrmithdobbs> haha
2944 2011-05-20 16:48:24 <luke-jr> and then Pepsi wonders why their pop machines are being successfully double-spent so easily
2945 2011-05-20 16:48:25 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you add the new op, then keep track of the versions of nodes on the network, and only enable sending transactions with it once 99.99% of the network is using the new version
2946 2011-05-20 16:49:03 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: AFAIK there is no way to identify support for features on a network-wide scale
2947 2011-05-20 16:49:32 <luke-jr> certainly can't use versions, those vary by cleint
2948 2011-05-20 16:49:50 B0g4r7 has joined
2949 2011-05-20 16:50:31 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, there is only really the one client afaict
2950 2011-05-20 16:50:48 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: don't be silly
2951 2011-05-20 16:50:52 <phantomcircuit> actually
2952 2011-05-20 16:50:59 <phantomcircuit> you would simply move to a new version
2953 2011-05-20 16:51:08 <phantomcircuit> magic anybody using < that version doesn't have it
2954 2011-05-20 16:51:28 <phantomcircuit> not saying i dont see your point
2955 2011-05-20 16:51:35 <x6763> is the part about the last element being duplicated accurate? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Merkle_Trees
2956 2011-05-20 16:51:37 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: there's at least 3 different client implementations right now on the network
2957 2011-05-20 16:51:42 <UukGoblin> the 'version' reported in the protocol should be a protocol version, not a client version
2958 2011-05-20 16:51:43 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: probably more.
2959 2011-05-20 16:51:48 <x6763> i didn't think it was duplicated...
2960 2011-05-20 16:51:55 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, wouldn't matter if you bumb the version field, now you can detect support for it
2961 2011-05-20 16:52:03 <samfisher> anyone?
2962 2011-05-20 16:52:22 <phantomcircuit> samfisher, what was your question?
2963 2011-05-20 16:52:54 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: then when people dispute a new "feature"?
2964 2011-05-20 16:53:01 <luke-jr> UukGoblin: how do the protocol versions fork?
2965 2011-05-20 16:53:26 <luke-jr> or how would features be removed?
2966 2011-05-20 16:54:17 <UukGoblin> ah actually there is a protocol version field in the version message
2967 2011-05-20 16:54:25 * UukGoblin doesn't really know about the internals
2968 2011-05-20 16:54:43 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, anyways the problem is that op_checksig actually does 2 distinct operations which is unfortuante
2969 2011-05-20 16:54:58 <UukGoblin> protocol versions forking.. that wouldn't work ;-]
2970 2011-05-20 16:55:02 <phantomcircuit> there isn't anyway to implement faster verification without the first half of the op_checksig operation
2971 2011-05-20 16:56:51 vorlov_ has joined
2972 2011-05-20 16:57:19 quup has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2973 2011-05-20 16:57:23 ForceDestroyer is now known as Vandroiy
2974 2011-05-20 16:58:03 vorlov has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2975 2011-05-20 16:58:03 vorlov_ is now known as vorlov
2976 2011-05-20 16:58:30 Nooob has joined
2977 2011-05-20 16:59:22 <Nooob> Hi, all. Hoping someone can answer a question about Bitcoin addresses.
2978 2011-05-20 17:00:04 <erbs> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/7042/how-much-does-it-cost-to-have-a-custom-asic-made
2979 2011-05-20 17:00:34 <erbs> one response suggests you can get 40 chips made for $3k ??
2980 2011-05-20 17:00:43 quellhorst has joined
2981 2011-05-20 17:00:44 <jgarzik> custom ASIC is just the first step. gotta get them on boards... reliably
2982 2011-05-20 17:00:53 <quellhorst> how can i transfer bitcoins with the bitcoind binary?
2983 2011-05-20 17:01:13 <jgarzik> and you can do "ASIC" (structured ASIC or other tricks) for far less than $1M
2984 2011-05-20 17:02:13 <jgarzik> ArtForz did MOSIS (or at least pointed people at that, as example)
2985 2011-05-20 17:02:19 <jgarzik> which is mentioned in that article
2986 2011-05-20 17:02:28 <erbs> interesting.. what kind of performance did the mosis approach get
2987 2011-05-20 17:02:31 <sipa> Nooob: don't ask to ask, just ask
2988 2011-05-20 17:03:30 <wumpus> jgarzik: indeed, you need to get them on boards an interface to them in some way
2989 2011-05-20 17:03:31 <erbs> it seems difficult to estimate what kind of $/hash performance you would get with your own asic
2990 2011-05-20 17:03:35 <Nooob> Ha ha, sorry - I'm at work and can't connect at all, proxy or otherwise.
2991 2011-05-20 17:03:41 <Nooob> Can I install at home and use this address I've been given here?
2992 2011-05-20 17:03:44 <erbs> without actually doing it..
2993 2011-05-20 17:04:17 <wumpus> Nooob: yes, if you copy wallet.dat
2994 2011-05-20 17:04:32 antivigilante_ has joined
2995 2011-05-20 17:04:43 <Nooob> Ahhh, okay. Much obliged.
2996 2011-05-20 17:04:57 <erbs> i guess you would take your asic design and run it through an emulator to see how many cycles it uses
2997 2011-05-20 17:04:57 vorlov_ has joined
2998 2011-05-20 17:05:26 Nooob has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2999 2011-05-20 17:05:53 <wumpus> yes you certainly want to do simulation first
3000 2011-05-20 17:06:26 nathan7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3001 2011-05-20 17:06:41 <erbs> yeha i know nothing about chips
3002 2011-05-20 17:06:53 <erbs> are there std boards out there you can plop your chip onto..
3003 2011-05-20 17:07:04 vorlov has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3004 2011-05-20 17:07:05 vorlov_ is now known as vorlov
3005 2011-05-20 17:08:22 <erbs> http://www.mosis.com/Faqs/tech-pga_socket.html
3006 2011-05-20 17:08:27 <wumpus> I've been at the large server rooms at nvidia where they do simulation for new GPUs
3007 2011-05-20 17:09:25 <JFK911> that was just on slashdot recently
3008 2011-05-20 17:09:29 <wumpus> I guess it costs quite some computational power to come up with the most efficient design
3009 2011-05-20 17:09:48 <wumpus> yeah, was in 2008 that I was there, I gues sit's even more impressive now
3010 2011-05-20 17:10:00 <erbs> http://www.mosis.com/Faqs/faq-products.html#4.4
3011 2011-05-20 17:10:24 <erbs> how can you do a back-of-the-envelope guess as to whether your own asic will be better than a gpu
3012 2011-05-20 17:10:45 <jgarzik> erbs: very difficult. depends on your ASIC design.
3013 2011-05-20 17:10:46 <wumpus> then again, GPUs have a lot more constraints than custom chips, so it can be a lot simpler
3014 2011-05-20 17:10:50 <erbs> i c
3015 2011-05-20 17:10:52 <kika_> whats midstate?
3016 2011-05-20 17:11:15 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3017 2011-05-20 17:12:06 <wumpus> the state up to which sha256 can be precomputed, before the brute force
3018 2011-05-20 17:12:22 <kika_> i see
3019 2011-05-20 17:12:24 <vegard> it's a hash of (some parts of) the block header
3020 2011-05-20 17:12:33 <wumpus> yep
3021 2011-05-20 17:12:42 metonymous has joined
3022 2011-05-20 17:13:07 <erbs> http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=2362.0 well there it is!
3023 2011-05-20 17:13:21 <metonymous> I've got this transaction, what don't I understand? => "category" : "generate", "amount" : 0.91389984,
3024 2011-05-20 17:13:40 <kika_> vegard: and bitcoind calculates it and sends it via getwork right
3025 2011-05-20 17:13:43 <BlueMatt> metonymous: Im guessing thats via luke-jr's pool
3026 2011-05-20 17:13:48 <BlueMatt> metonymous: its how he pays out
3027 2011-05-20 17:13:50 <metonymous> aaaaaah, thankyou!
3028 2011-05-20 17:14:06 <metonymous> looks weird on the transaction list, but that'd be it precisely
3029 2011-05-20 17:14:07 <metonymous> thanks
3030 2011-05-20 17:14:13 <luke-jr> metonymous: #eligius
3031 2011-05-20 17:15:28 krekbwoy has joined
3032 2011-05-20 17:16:23 trekdanne has joined
3033 2011-05-20 17:17:08 BlueMattBot has quit ()
3034 2011-05-20 17:17:09 Enchilada has joined
3035 2011-05-20 17:17:11 <Enchilada> Is it possible to track the IP addresses of the origin and destination of a bitcoin transaction?
3036 2011-05-20 17:17:22 <BlueMatt> Enchilada: not really...
3037 2011-05-20 17:17:36 <BlueMatt> theoretically if you run a ton of nodes on the network to the point that you can almost do sybil
3038 2011-05-20 17:17:51 <BlueMatt> but still, some people can easily just proxy their txes through a known node (ie one of the fallbacks)
3039 2011-05-20 17:17:59 <BlueMatt> (mm did that)
3040 2011-05-20 17:18:00 <BlueMatt> iirc
3041 2011-05-20 17:18:40 BlueMattBot has joined
3042 2011-05-20 17:18:49 <wumpus> Enchilada: i guess if can you monitor the internet of the sender and destination of the transaction
3043 2011-05-20 17:19:06 BlueMattBot has quit (Client Quit)
3044 2011-05-20 17:19:17 <wumpus> well the sender would be each, the destination probably not unless he spends the coins
3045 2011-05-20 17:19:18 <BlueMatt> problem is sender and relayer look identical
3046 2011-05-20 17:19:20 <BlueMatt> (on purpose)
3047 2011-05-20 17:19:31 <wumpus> ah okay
3048 2011-05-20 17:19:40 <erbs> ancho chili
3049 2011-05-20 17:19:40 <BlueMatt> so if you just -connect=a fall back node, then it just looks like it came from that node
3050 2011-05-20 17:19:46 <Enchilada> hmm ok
3051 2011-05-20 17:19:57 BlueMattBot has joined
3052 2011-05-20 17:19:59 <wumpus> they'll have to monitor all your connections to make sure it didn't come in some other way
3053 2011-05-20 17:20:12 <BlueMatt> plus anyone who wants to actually try to "exploit" that needs serious connection power (like connected to as many nodes as possible)
3054 2011-05-20 17:20:22 kika_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3055 2011-05-20 17:20:39 <Enchilada> well i'm just wondering. if i pay a drug dealer for some heroin with bitcoins
3056 2011-05-20 17:20:48 <Enchilada> and the government wants to prove that i sent those bitcoins
3057 2011-05-20 17:20:52 <Enchilada> can they do that?
3058 2011-05-20 17:20:55 <wumpus> you can simply run it over tor
3059 2011-05-20 17:20:59 <wumpus> to be sure
3060 2011-05-20 17:21:07 <Enchilada> what's tor?
3061 2011-05-20 17:21:30 <wumpus> https://www.torproject.org/
3062 2011-05-20 17:22:07 <erbs> Enchilada: if you bought the bitcoins with USD from a traceable acct, or used a traceable IP for the transaction, you can be identified
3063 2011-05-20 17:22:35 <Enchilada> tor is completely untraceable?
3064 2011-05-20 17:22:40 <jrabbit> ...
3065 2011-05-20 17:22:44 <jrabbit> Internally.
3066 2011-05-20 17:23:15 <Enchilada> ok, i'll have a talk with my heroin supplier to see what options we should choose
3067 2011-05-20 17:23:16 <Enchilada> :D
3068 2011-05-20 17:23:27 <erbs> tor typically uses 3 hops - so theyd need subpoena power in 3 jurisdictions and compliance from whoever's hosting the tor nodes which is quite difficult, but im sure its not unheard of
3069 2011-05-20 17:23:35 <jrabbit> you can ruin your anonymity outside of tor is you use it wrong
3070 2011-05-20 17:24:06 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3071 2011-05-20 17:24:08 <Enchilada> ok..
3072 2011-05-20 17:24:28 <erbs> most tor nodes dont keep per-connection logs so the trail would go cold on the first one (tho large ISPs usually keep raw tcp connection logs for everything that happens)
3073 2011-05-20 17:24:39 <jrabbit> its not about that...
3074 2011-05-20 17:24:40 <jrabbit> lol
3075 2011-05-20 17:24:48 <jrabbit> Enchilada: learn how to use tor
3076 2011-05-20 17:25:31 <Enchilada> ok will do
3077 2011-05-20 17:25:34 <Namegduf> Enchilada: Are you serious?
3078 2011-05-20 17:25:38 <Enchilada> it's different from a regular vpn?
3079 2011-05-20 17:25:43 <jrabbit> ....
3080 2011-05-20 17:25:44 <jrabbit> rofl
3081 2011-05-20 17:25:57 <Enchilada> i mean giganews.com have these vpn services
3082 2011-05-20 17:26:03 <Enchilada> Namegduf: yeah. want some?
3083 2011-05-20 17:26:13 <Namegduf> I'll pass.
3084 2011-05-20 17:26:14 <BlueMatt> its _very_ different from a regular vpn
3085 2011-05-20 17:26:17 <jrabbit> Enchilada: are you retarded or willfully ignorant?
3086 2011-05-20 17:26:29 gbk has joined
3087 2011-05-20 17:26:32 <BlueMatt> but honestly, just use bitcoin and maybe -connect=a fallback node and -nolisten and maybe -noirc
3088 2011-05-20 17:26:52 <Enchilada> :(
3089 2011-05-20 17:26:58 <Enchilada> BlueMatt: okay
3090 2011-05-20 17:28:16 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3091 2011-05-20 17:28:40 vorlov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3092 2011-05-20 17:30:13 <erbs> i think the EU data retention law requires ISPs to record all TCP start/stop connections for 6mos to 2 years
3093 2011-05-20 17:30:17 <erbs> not sure tho
3094 2011-05-20 17:30:54 <erbs> im sure US isps do the same.. dunno if broadband providers do that, so it might not affect your typical tor box sitting in a multi-backbone colo / dc somewhere
3095 2011-05-20 17:30:54 <BlueMatt> not sure its that bad, .de only has laws that isps have to retain logs of ip->person +time for 6 months iirc
3096 2011-05-20 17:31:18 <erbs> err bandwitch providers not broadband
3097 2011-05-20 17:31:27 <BlueMatt> oh upstream
3098 2011-05-20 17:31:33 <BlueMatt> well thats worthless if you cant match ip to name
3099 2011-05-20 17:31:41 samfisher has quit (Quit: exit error code 434)
3100 2011-05-20 17:32:27 x5x is now known as x5x`brb
3101 2011-05-20 17:32:51 <erbs> The Data Retention Directive of 2006 forces telco incumbents, mobile phone companies and TCP/IP providers throughout the Union to retain a certain amount of their customers' traffic and geolocation data for a minimum of six months and up to two years. This is defined on national levels.
3102 2011-05-20 17:33:18 <BlueMatt> ah, then yea...I think .de is 6 mo
3103 2011-05-20 17:33:34 <erbs> interesting: "Denmark's implementation of the directive, one of the first, require ISPs to record the protocol and port number of every TCP/IP session (if "unfeasible", they can opt to only record every 500th packet)."
3104 2011-05-20 17:34:11 <BlueMatt> if thats the case...ddos your isp be connecting to yourself over their link :)
3105 2011-05-20 17:34:18 <BlueMatt> repeatedly
3106 2011-05-20 17:34:29 <erbs> so... tracing a tor connection is quite feasible (if your 3 tor nodes are within jurisdictions that do data retention - US/EU)
3107 2011-05-20 17:35:12 <erbs> tho it would be costly and annoying for a US law enforcement to go through the hassle
3108 2011-05-20 17:35:15 Enchilada has quit (Quit: Enchilada)
3109 2011-05-20 17:36:21 <erbs> they would have to analyze time stamps on every sesssion to the exit node, and the preceeding node, and the root node....
3110 2011-05-20 17:36:46 <erbs> and try to find a good match, but that might leave them with hundreds of potential source IPs
3111 2011-05-20 17:36:55 <erbs> youd need some good sleuthing software to do something like that which im sure the nsa has
3112 2011-05-20 17:37:00 rutrader has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3113 2011-05-20 17:37:32 <Namegduf> erbs: I suspect most nodes do too much traffic for that, especially since the network's a little overloaded.
3114 2011-05-20 17:37:48 <Namegduf> You could track to the first, but then you'd have to figure out which of its connections corresponded.
3115 2011-05-20 17:38:02 <Namegduf> And you'd probably get a lot of possible next nodes, then a lot of possible final nodes.
3116 2011-05-20 17:38:11 bill_stickers has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3117 2011-05-20 17:38:28 <erbs> yeah youd roughly look at a stream of connections that match the logs on the final destination in timing and size
3118 2011-05-20 17:38:51 <Namegduf> I think Tor doesn't have a one connection tunneled, one connection between nodes model
3119 2011-05-20 17:38:57 <Namegduf> But will retain inter-node connections for a while
3120 2011-05-20 17:39:16 <Namegduf> Size of contents isn't too helpful either because Tor pads packet size.
3121 2011-05-20 17:39:27 <Namegduf> You can narrow it down a little
3122 2011-05-20 17:39:34 eao has joined
3123 2011-05-20 17:39:35 <Namegduf> Very hard, though.
3124 2011-05-20 17:41:01 <wumpus> it'll make it too difficult to be practical, and it requires serious human effort, which means they usually won't bother
3125 2011-05-20 17:41:07 x5x`brb is now known as x5x
3126 2011-05-20 17:41:08 <erbs> it is an issue of whittling down the candidate ips. lets say the suspect connects to a particular web server on multiple occasions - then you just need to find the intersection between 2 sets of candidate ips on those occasions
3127 2011-05-20 17:41:51 <wumpus> at least using tor is a lot better than not using it when you want to be anonymous
3128 2011-05-20 17:42:13 <erbs> not trivial like subpeaning a single subscriber's IP with a simple phoen call to comcast.. but im sure its something thas been done
3129 2011-05-20 17:42:21 <erbs> oh yes for sure
3130 2011-05-20 17:42:44 <wumpus> they will only do it for very serious cases, like if you hacked sony :p
3131 2011-05-20 17:42:51 <erbs> you can increase the number of tor nodes you go through.. so if you set it to 5 or 6 it becomes quite infeasible
3132 2011-05-20 17:42:56 <erbs> haha
3133 2011-05-20 17:43:23 <wumpus> for run-of-the mill political trolling it's a non-issue
3134 2011-05-20 17:43:41 <erbs> (at 1000 connections per second, a 3 node chain already implies 1 billion potential source IPs)
3135 2011-05-20 17:43:47 <erbs> yes
3136 2011-05-20 17:43:48 <wumpus> yep
3137 2011-05-20 17:44:17 <Namegduf> erbs: Tor keeps connections open.
3138 2011-05-20 17:44:27 <Namegduf> If you use Tor twice quickly you'll come out the same exit node.
3139 2011-05-20 17:44:34 <erbs> yeah
3140 2011-05-20 17:44:37 <Namegduf> Consider the implications of that between those three nodes.
3141 2011-05-20 17:44:41 <erbs> 1000 simul connections rather
3142 2011-05-20 17:45:04 <Namegduf> Yeah.
3143 2011-05-20 17:46:23 underscor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3144 2011-05-20 17:46:45 <erbs> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.130.5928&rep=rep1&type=pdf Covert Communications
3145 2011-05-20 17:46:46 <erbs> Despite Traffic Data Retention
3146 2011-05-20 17:47:56 <erbs> We implement a prototype based on ICMP Echo (ping) to illustrate the practicality of our approach and discuss how a more complex protocol would modulate information through the use of TCP features to make communication detection very difficult. The feasibility of covert communications despite stringent traffic data retention, has far reaching policy consequences.
3147 2011-05-20 17:48:19 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
3148 2011-05-20 17:49:00 <wumpus> yeah, it's a pity that tor still relies too much on exit nodes... if you use tor to communicate with a hidden service it's completely hidden and encrypted to the outside world
3149 2011-05-20 17:49:43 <wumpus> haha, tcp-over-icmp... but then they'll start logging all pings :P (or at least, people that ping a lot)
3150 2011-05-20 17:50:22 <phantomcircuit> erbs, lol that's dumb
3151 2011-05-20 17:50:23 antivigilante_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3152 2011-05-20 17:50:27 <wumpus> well if someone complains that you're pingflooding them you can say you were only trying to send a message
3153 2011-05-20 17:50:33 <eps1> ;;bc,stats
3154 2011-05-20 17:50:36 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125345 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1662 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 12 hours, 58 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 330989.50839925
3155 2011-05-20 17:51:02 <erbs> a steganographic bitcoin trasnfer would be kind of interesting.. you announce a tx by embedding it in a harmless flickr photo.. a spider programmed with a key scans popular sites to find it and then inserts it into the block chain.. (so the IP of the person making the tx is never revealed)
3156 2011-05-20 17:51:40 gbk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3157 2011-05-20 17:51:54 <wumpus> yep you could do that
3158 2011-05-20 17:52:49 <wumpus> there's so many sites yo ucan upload stuff to these days, that makes it easier to hide information in some way
3159 2011-05-20 17:53:29 <phantomcircuit> that would be hilariously high latency
3160 2011-05-20 17:53:42 <erbs> a couple days later you delete the flickr photo... now if the feds recovered the stegano key theyd have to crunch through petabytes of deleted user generated content to find a match
3161 2011-05-20 17:53:57 <midnightmagic> the IP isn't revealed anyway
3162 2011-05-20 17:54:32 <erbs> any node that listens to transaction announcements can log the ip
3163 2011-05-20 17:54:45 <midnightmagic> yeah, so?
3164 2011-05-20 17:55:24 <erbs> so the IP is revealed
3165 2011-05-20 17:55:36 <midnightmagic> no. txn are passed along throughout the network.
3166 2011-05-20 17:55:40 <erbs> and you can trace the person sending bitcois
3167 2011-05-20 17:55:44 <midnightmagic> how do you know the txn it came from is the original?
3168 2011-05-20 17:56:18 <erbs> it doesn't matter. at each point in the chain the connection is logged by the isp or if you control the node, by you
3169 2011-05-20 17:56:24 <midnightmagic> you'd need massive collusion to track it down, or a very, very clever way of slowly tracking down txn over multiple txn messages. in actuality, you will probably only get one shot.
3170 2011-05-20 17:57:21 <erbs> each tcp connection is retained by the isp for months or years. you just request logs for each connection and track it back 3 or 4 steps to the source
3171 2011-05-20 18:01:03 <luke-jr> LOL paranoid
3172 2011-05-20 18:01:39 <erbs> im sure its all automated.. the nsa has a db they can query with all connection logs made in the past year
3173 2011-05-20 18:02:43 <erbs> heck they have a shitton of raw traffic theyre logging anyway, tho they cant store it all, they have a heuristic to track the most "interesting" info
3174 2011-05-20 18:02:44 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, no actually they do that in the UK and other police states
3175 2011-05-20 18:05:43 <erbs> i mean.. theyre not gonna hunt you down for alpaca socks or some highend pot.. but maybe if you trigger some alqaeda-type filter
3176 2011-05-20 18:08:01 vorlov has joined
3177 2011-05-20 18:10:06 <erbs> you could build into tor a kind of delayed multiplexing - ppl send packets that get distributed later at random times
3178 2011-05-20 18:10:11 <Raccoon> has anyone here played with twitter api?
3179 2011-05-20 18:10:23 <erbs> that would eliminate the ability to match connections based on timestamps.. making tracing pretty infeasible
3180 2011-05-20 18:10:30 <erbs> yeah its good
3181 2011-05-20 18:10:38 <Raccoon> i want to grab matching *bitcoin|bitcoins* hits from twitter, pipe them to IRC
3182 2011-05-20 18:10:45 <erbs> good idea hmm
3183 2011-05-20 18:10:57 <Raccoon> but their API mainly focuses on how to post
3184 2011-05-20 18:11:03 <Raccoon> not sure how to feed
3185 2011-05-20 18:11:34 <erbs> http://dev.twitter.com/pages/streaming_api_methods#statuses-filter
3186 2011-05-20 18:11:38 <Raccoon> perhaps just an RSS solution? but I'd prefer live pushes
3187 2011-05-20 18:11:45 <aschmitz> Raccoon: Check out the streaming API. You'll get a JSON chunk for every post that matches.
3188 2011-05-20 18:13:54 ArtForzZz has joined
3189 2011-05-20 18:14:10 <erbs> echo 'track=bitcoin' > tracking && curl -d @tracking http://stream.twitter.com/1/statuses/filter.json -uUSER:PASS
3190 2011-05-20 18:17:31 ArtForz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3191 2011-05-20 18:17:37 vorlov_ has joined
3192 2011-05-20 18:18:06 <erbs> they just launched a hedge fund that mines tweets to determine stock movements
3193 2011-05-20 18:18:56 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3194 2011-05-20 18:19:10 vorlov has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3195 2011-05-20 18:19:11 vorlov_ is now known as vorlov
3196 2011-05-20 18:20:03 <Raccoon> erbs: that stream requires user/pass authentication?
3197 2011-05-20 18:20:11 <erbs> any twitter user/password will do
3198 2011-05-20 18:20:21 <Raccoon> happen to know the http header for that?
3199 2011-05-20 18:20:47 neoeinstein has joined
3200 2011-05-20 18:20:59 <erbs> WWW-Authenticate: Basic ...
3201 2011-05-20 18:21:07 <Raccoon> thanks.
3202 2011-05-20 18:22:59 <erbs> "Authorization: Basic " . base64_encode("$username:$password") . "\r\n";
3203 2011-05-20 18:23:01 eao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3204 2011-05-20 18:23:05 <erbs> etc
3205 2011-05-20 18:23:36 <erbs> are you using python, php ..?
3206 2011-05-20 18:24:34 TheAncientGoat_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3207 2011-05-20 18:25:42 <neoeinstein> I am looking for someone who might be able to help me out with getting some debug data out of the official client.
3208 2011-05-20 18:25:45 TD_ has joined
3209 2011-05-20 18:26:05 <neoeinstein> Anyone that might be willing to offer some help?
3210 2011-05-20 18:27:09 <UukGoblin> hrmm why doesn't sendmany accept a * as the first argument? :-O
3211 2011-05-20 18:27:59 vorlov_ has joined
3212 2011-05-20 18:29:27 vorlov has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3213 2011-05-20 18:29:28 vorlov_ is now known as vorlov
3214 2011-05-20 18:31:53 larsivi has joined
3215 2011-05-20 18:33:08 <neoeinstein> Specifically, I'm trying to get intermediate results for the value of 'txTmp' and the hash of 'ss' (here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L929) during an OP_CHECKSIG for some transaction.
3216 2011-05-20 18:33:31 <neoeinstein> * during an OP_CHECKSIG for some transaction
3217 2011-05-20 18:33:47 <erbs> hmm
3218 2011-05-20 18:34:00 <erbs> if you can build a debug version of the client, then gdb it...
3219 2011-05-20 18:34:48 Nesetalis is now known as Nes-asleep
3220 2011-05-20 18:35:27 Guest37782 has joined
3221 2011-05-20 18:35:28 <neoeinstein> That's part of my problem at the moment. I don't have the tools at my disposal to build and gdb the client. I can get there, but I thought I'd ask if someone might have more ready access to what I am trying to retrieve.
3222 2011-05-20 18:36:40 Unreal89 has joined
3223 2011-05-20 18:36:46 <Unreal89> hi all
3224 2011-05-20 18:37:04 <Unreal89> someone are italian?
3225 2011-05-20 18:40:06 <BlueMatt> Unreal89: dont know anyone here who is...but if you are, do you have a minute to do some translations to help out bitcoin?
3226 2011-05-20 18:40:59 <BlueMatt> also, if you are looking for an italian to trade with, try asking on #bitcoin-otc
3227 2011-05-20 18:41:40 <Unreal89> hi bluematt, ok no problem, but i'm not an expert of bitcoin ;) but if i can , i reply to you
3228 2011-05-20 18:42:04 <BlueMatt> dont need to be, just need to be able to speak english and italian :)
3229 2011-05-20 18:42:20 AStove has joined
3230 2011-05-20 18:42:29 <erbs> peenuze
3231 2011-05-20 18:42:49 <gjs278> sound slike he can barely handle english
3232 2011-05-20 18:43:02 <Unreal89> yes english isn not a problem for me :)
3233 2011-05-20 18:43:02 <BlueMatt> if an italian (or anyone else has time to translate) check out http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8390.0
3234 2011-05-20 18:43:15 Malamute has joined
3235 2011-05-20 18:43:22 <UukGoblin> something is wrong with 'listaccounts'
3236 2011-05-20 18:43:24 <BlueMatt> gjs278: hey, if you can get the point across, thats good enough
3237 2011-05-20 18:43:45 <BlueMatt> plus, welcome to the internet, not everyone speaks english as a first language
3238 2011-05-20 18:43:49 <gjs278> sure they do
3239 2011-05-20 18:44:02 <gjs278> they just don't admit it
3240 2011-05-20 18:44:32 <BlueMatt> lol
3241 2011-05-20 18:45:46 <ntosme2> has anyone considered an encryption password for the Bitcoin wallet?
3242 2011-05-20 18:45:47 <UukGoblin> it kinda says that my generation block is worth 48.22348149 and the remaining 1.94555556 went to an account I created earlier, "test1"
3243 2011-05-20 18:45:59 <BlueMatt> ntosme2: there is a patch due to be merged for 0.4.0
3244 2011-05-20 18:46:13 <ntosme2> awesome!
3245 2011-05-20 18:46:24 <UukGoblin> the generation block was 125144 (0000000000000c69df7486942e054a8d7f24949db220d3b71975a1175835ba1e)
3246 2011-05-20 18:46:33 <UukGoblin> sorry 125154
3247 2011-05-20 18:46:56 <BlueMatt> some kind of wallet corruption...bbe shows it fine
3248 2011-05-20 18:47:02 <BlueMatt> what version of btc?
3249 2011-05-20 18:47:35 <Unreal89> bluematt: now i'm translating, in the head of the doc, may i put my name and mail next yor?
3250 2011-05-20 18:47:50 <BlueMatt> Unreal89: by all means, replace my name with yours
3251 2011-05-20 18:48:04 <BlueMatt> the program just automatically changed that, I never actually did any work
3252 2011-05-20 18:48:12 <BlueMatt> just updated the list of things to be translated...
3253 2011-05-20 18:48:13 <Unreal89> tha's ok
3254 2011-05-20 18:48:19 vorlov has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3255 2011-05-20 18:48:29 <BlueMatt> well I'll be updating it for you before I pull request it then ;)
3256 2011-05-20 18:48:41 <BlueMatt> (of course you can put anonymous if you want)
3257 2011-05-20 18:48:46 <Unreal89> matt: are you a developer?
3258 2011-05-20 18:48:56 <BlueMatt> Unreal89: unofficially
3259 2011-05-20 18:48:58 vorlov has joined
3260 2011-05-20 18:49:24 <jgarzik> Unreal89: BlueMatt is practically a core dev team member.
3261 2011-05-20 18:49:43 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: no "official" you are definitely a developer, no doubt about it :)
3262 2011-05-20 18:49:54 <BlueMatt> well ok, developer yes, commit access, no
3263 2011-05-20 18:50:39 <Unreal89> ok, if you o your team need help for italian translate or more, write me
3264 2011-05-20 18:51:56 <erbs> sNaTcH[]
3265 2011-05-20 18:52:03 <erbs> im melting!
3266 2011-05-20 18:52:19 <UukGoblin> holy crap my bitcoin node is filling my upload
3267 2011-05-20 18:52:46 <lfm> how many connections?
3268 2011-05-20 18:52:52 <UukGoblin> 223
3269 2011-05-20 18:52:58 * UukGoblin disables the port forward on the firewall
3270 2011-05-20 18:52:58 <BlueMatt> my god
3271 2011-05-20 18:53:07 <lfm> hehe, ok maybe you should limit that
3272 2011-05-20 18:53:10 <BlueMatt> yea, we need upnp on by default
3273 2011-05-20 18:53:23 <erbs> bitcoin is awesome!!!
3274 2011-05-20 18:53:25 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, we DON'T need.
3275 2011-05-20 18:53:28 <erbs> ;;bc,stats
3276 2011-05-20 18:53:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125357 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1650 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 10 hours, 7 minutes, and 30 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 333205.60156545
3277 2011-05-20 18:53:37 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: it would solve your problem
3278 2011-05-20 18:53:48 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, really? how?
3279 2011-05-20 18:54:02 <BlueMatt> if more nodes accept incoming connections, less will connect to you
3280 2011-05-20 18:54:16 <BlueMatt> and the network will be more "distributed" at least in terms of connections
3281 2011-05-20 18:54:24 cal_ has joined
3282 2011-05-20 18:54:24 <lfm> if everyone had incomming then the 8 connects each would be spread out better
3283 2011-05-20 18:54:25 <UukGoblin> ah, like that
3284 2011-05-20 18:54:28 <cal_> hey there?
3285 2011-05-20 18:54:34 <cal_> im having some issues mining,
3286 2011-05-20 18:54:35 <BlueMatt> cal_: hi
3287 2011-05-20 18:54:46 <erbs> issues?
3288 2011-05-20 18:54:46 <BlueMatt> what kind of issues?
3289 2011-05-20 18:55:05 <lfm> since everyone does 8 outgoing connects wheather they accept incoming or not
3290 2011-05-20 18:55:16 <cal_> when running poclbm.exe -d1 --host=deepbit.net --port=8332 --user=example@example.com --pass=password i get poclbm.exe: command not found
3291 2011-05-20 18:55:54 <BlueMatt> cal_: windows Im assuming...anyway you need to download poclbm and extract it to your user's home directory (or cd to the directory where you extract it to)
3292 2011-05-20 18:56:00 <lfm> cal_: running from wrong directory, try full path
3293 2011-05-20 18:56:27 <BlueMatt> or full path, that works too
3294 2011-05-20 18:56:49 <BlueMatt> iirc drag the poclbm.exe file onto cmd and it will paste the full path for you
3295 2011-05-20 18:57:20 <cal_> im running ubuntu, installed via command line, it didnt give me any directories etc, this is what i ran to install,
3296 2011-05-20 18:57:21 <cal_> sudo apt-get install python-pyopencl subversion svn checkout http://svn.json-rpc.org/trunk/python-jsonrpc cd python-jsonrpc/ sudo python setup.py install cd .. wget --no-check-certificate https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm/raw/master/BitcoinMiner.cl wget --no-check-certificate https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm/raw/master/BitcoinMiner.py wget --no-check-certificate https://github.com/m0mchil/poclbm/raw/master/poclbm.py wget --no-check
3297 2011-05-20 18:57:47 Enchilada has joined
3298 2011-05-20 18:57:51 <lfm> cal_: huh? poclbm.exe on Linux????
3299 2011-05-20 18:57:59 <BlueMatt> remove the .exe part to begin with
3300 2011-05-20 18:58:05 <erbs> the Cattle King was wiped out by railroad technology, which allowed the powerful Chicago Meat Trust to deliver their shitty industrial-farm-raised beef directly to the San Francisco market in refrigerated railroad cars. http://exiledonline.com/golden-state-nobility-charging-california-taxpayers-rent-for-150-years-and-counting/
3301 2011-05-20 18:58:08 <BlueMatt> (thats a windows thing)
3302 2011-05-20 18:58:18 <cal_> i thought so, :P
3303 2011-05-20 18:59:17 <lfm> good luck
3304 2011-05-20 18:59:31 ntosme2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3305 2011-05-20 18:59:44 <cal_> python poclbm.py is that the correct one?
3306 2011-05-20 18:59:53 <cal_> when doing
3307 2011-05-20 18:59:53 <BlueMatt> yea
3308 2011-05-20 19:00:36 <UukGoblin> ok I'm 99% sure that my bitcoind owns 1P6SyvTdEoRq7SafvFK8LCRMbyk8QSX1DD
3309 2011-05-20 19:00:47 <UukGoblin> however, listaccounts shows this: http://pastebin.com/Ffx6uZSg
3310 2011-05-20 19:00:55 <cal_> python: can't open file 'poclbm.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
3311 2011-05-20 19:01:05 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: try dbdump.py from bitcointools
3312 2011-05-20 19:01:06 <jrabbit> ....
3313 2011-05-20 19:01:16 <jrabbit> cal_: you need to have the right path...
3314 2011-05-20 19:01:28 <cal_> how do i set the directory path?
3315 2011-05-20 19:01:29 <lfm> cal_: cd to the directory where its installed
3316 2011-05-20 19:01:54 <jrabbit> or specify it....
3317 2011-05-20 19:02:00 <jrabbit> or drag it
3318 2011-05-20 19:02:02 <BlueMatt> or try dragging the file onto your terminal and see if it pastes it
3319 2011-05-20 19:02:14 <WakiMiko> UukGoblin: bitcoind listaccounts 0
3320 2011-05-20 19:02:48 <UukGoblin> WakiMiko, that gives output identical to the pasted one
3321 2011-05-20 19:03:15 <WakiMiko> hmm, generations sometimes behave strangly
3322 2011-05-20 19:03:27 <WakiMiko> try validateaddress 1P6SyvTdEoRq7SafvFK8LCRMbyk8QSX1DD
3323 2011-05-20 19:03:40 <WakiMiko> if it says its yours it will show up sooner or later
3324 2011-05-20 19:03:44 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: can we get a dbdump?
3325 2011-05-20 19:03:52 <UukGoblin> WakiMiko, "ismine" : true
3326 2011-05-20 19:04:14 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, let me google for these tools
3327 2011-05-20 19:04:29 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
3328 2011-05-20 19:05:44 <erbs> bitcar
3329 2011-05-20 19:06:26 FabianB has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3330 2011-05-20 19:06:27 skeledrew has joined
3331 2011-05-20 19:06:57 <erbs> agreeeee[
3332 2011-05-20 19:07:07 <erbs> zee
3333 2011-05-20 19:07:19 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, ok I have it... now what?
3334 2011-05-20 19:07:28 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: dbdump.py --wallet
3335 2011-05-20 19:07:37 <cal_> where is it origionally installed to, and what would the correct combinations to run?
3336 2011-05-20 19:07:43 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, and you want the whole output of that?
3337 2011-05-20 19:07:48 <BlueMatt> yea
3338 2011-05-20 19:07:54 FabianB has joined
3339 2011-05-20 19:07:59 <UukGoblin> eh... there goes my privacy ;-P
3340 2011-05-20 19:08:06 <BlueMatt> well you can edit it
3341 2011-05-20 19:08:13 <BlueMatt> just the relevant portions
3342 2011-05-20 19:08:28 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, ok well what portions are relevant?
3343 2011-05-20 19:08:36 <BlueMatt> that is up to you
3344 2011-05-20 19:08:46 <BlueMatt> ie I suppose things referencing the address and generation in question
3345 2011-05-20 19:08:51 <cal_> please help?
3346 2011-05-20 19:09:10 stahi is now known as sta-hi
3347 2011-05-20 19:09:27 <erbs> hmm
3348 2011-05-20 19:09:30 <erbs> im unemployed /broke/homeless
3349 2011-05-20 19:09:33 <erbs> need some coins
3350 2011-05-20 19:09:39 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, I'm... blind or something. It lists 4 addresses including the "" one, but none of them is 1P6SyvTdEoRq7SafvFK8LCRMbyk8QSX1DD
3351 2011-05-20 19:09:41 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3352 2011-05-20 19:10:00 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: does it list it as a privkey?
3353 2011-05-20 19:10:15 jiunec has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3354 2011-05-20 19:10:41 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, uh... it lists lots of stuff like: PubKey 0400...38cf : PriKey 3082...38cf
3355 2011-05-20 19:10:55 <BlueMatt> 1 sec
3356 2011-05-20 19:11:21 <UukGoblin> (btw I'm running these tools on a backup of the wallet)
3357 2011-05-20 19:11:28 <BlueMatt> it should be like PubKey ... ADDRESS ...
3358 2011-05-20 19:11:40 ejbvanc has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3359 2011-05-20 19:12:30 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, nah, I have a list of PubKey ... : PriKey ..., and after that on new lines 4 ADDRESSes and then a list of "Change Pool key" stuff
3360 2011-05-20 19:13:04 <BlueMatt> huh? are you sure you have the current version?
3361 2011-05-20 19:13:15 <UukGoblin> I just git cloned it
3362 2011-05-20 19:13:15 <BlueMatt> I have lines that look like "PubKey 044a...6ce4 18TMZD2xbKcUNJrAC7DZgPxCoV9xcuDCNc: PriKey 3082...6ce4"
3363 2011-05-20 19:13:51 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3364 2011-05-20 19:14:03 <BlueMatt> that makes da no sense
3365 2011-05-20 19:14:32 <UukGoblin> my bitcoind is 64ad448adc67f3c32fe0dfe074c82a8377f67ee7
3366 2011-05-20 19:14:43 <UukGoblin> it doesn't, at all
3367 2011-05-20 19:14:50 <BlueMatt> that shouldnt matter, just the bitcointools version
3368 2011-05-20 19:15:05 cuddlefish has joined
3369 2011-05-20 19:15:09 McMini has joined
3370 2011-05-20 19:15:10 agarttha has joined
3371 2011-05-20 19:15:11 tyran37 has joined
3372 2011-05-20 19:15:11 gdoteof has joined
3373 2011-05-20 19:15:12 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
3374 2011-05-20 19:15:15 Shadyman has joined
3375 2011-05-20 19:15:19 <cuddlefish> I invented a decentralized mining pool
3376 2011-05-20 19:15:20 <cuddlefish> sort of
3377 2011-05-20 19:15:22 <UukGoblin> I've basically written a script to split my generation output in half and send it out
3378 2011-05-20 19:15:24 vragnaroda has joined
3379 2011-05-20 19:15:28 <BlueMatt> either your wallet is corrupted somehow, or bitcointools is having an issue
3380 2011-05-20 19:15:36 <cuddlefish> it is centralized, but the block generation is done by individual miners.
3381 2011-05-20 19:15:38 <McMini> tell cuddlefish
3382 2011-05-20 19:15:41 <UukGoblin> but... sendmany needs an address... and that should be '' normally.. but it doesn't work
3383 2011-05-20 19:15:48 AntiVigilante has joined
3384 2011-05-20 19:15:51 <cuddlefish> so the pool operator can't make malicious blocks!
3385 2011-05-20 19:15:54 <cuddlefish> Basically
3386 2011-05-20 19:15:57 <cuddlefish> Register for the pool
3387 2011-05-20 19:16:02 <AntiVigilante> repeet?
3388 2011-05-20 19:16:04 <AntiVigilante> pl0x
3389 2011-05-20 19:16:07 <cuddlefish> Get Bitcoin address
3390 2011-05-20 19:16:08 soossii has joined
3391 2011-05-20 19:16:11 <cuddlefish> one sec, AntiVigilante
3392 2011-05-20 19:16:14 <Shadyman> AntiVigilante: No u
3393 2011-05-20 19:16:16 <cuddlefish> Then, you do all your hashing
3394 2011-05-20 19:16:22 <cuddlefish> with the pool's address...
3395 2011-05-20 19:16:33 <cuddlefish> and send shares to the pool, just like with any pool
3396 2011-05-20 19:16:44 <JSharp> cuddlefish, that's pretty cool
3397 2011-05-20 19:16:46 <UukGoblin> I've tested my forwarding script earlier with transactions that could leave this 1.94555556 in the test1, but I sent it out earlier in http://blockexplorer.com/tx/f297bb19ac1ed5dbac4a39e69b440a8715416d7320556ef99a23d860d0ba4cd4#o2 and http://blockexplorer.com/tx/ced45b698989298f5ead0ffa4961cd57edc113b7e4acc69667f02b55c0f247ac#o0
3398 2011-05-20 19:16:51 <erbs> cuddlefish is cool
3399 2011-05-20 19:16:56 nathan7 has joined
3400 2011-05-20 19:17:05 <cuddlefish> JSharp: Yep! All the pool operator has to do is distribute earnings
3401 2011-05-20 19:17:14 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, well because bitcoind went crazy, I'd go for 'wallet corruption'
3402 2011-05-20 19:17:22 <JSharp> cuddlefish, nifty... almost no hardware requirements at all
3403 2011-05-20 19:17:25 <cuddlefish> the miners themselves do all the mining... if Tycho did this Deepbit'd be safe again!
3404 2011-05-20 19:17:29 <justmoon> cuddlefish: that's brilliant, gj!
3405 2011-05-20 19:17:34 <BlueMatt> UukGoblin: just to be sure, Id go for make new wallet and put your coins there
3406 2011-05-20 19:17:35 <cuddlefish> thanks
3407 2011-05-20 19:17:55 <AntiVigilante> how does it affect long traces etc
3408 2011-05-20 19:18:04 <JSharp> totally write up the equivalent of an RFC on it :)
3409 2011-05-20 19:18:11 <cuddlefish> JSharp: will do.
3410 2011-05-20 19:18:13 <gdoteof> allied: if you figure out how to do anythign with those f'd up depth messages, lmk
3411 2011-05-20 19:18:22 <cuddlefish> AntiVigilante: what're those?
3412 2011-05-20 19:18:39 <allied> I don't really understand depth
3413 2011-05-20 19:18:55 vragnaroda has left ()
3414 2011-05-20 19:18:58 <gdoteof> allied: it's just how many are for sale/bid at certain prices
3415 2011-05-20 19:19:03 <gdoteof> but the stream is messed up
3416 2011-05-20 19:19:04 sethsethseth___ has joined
3417 2011-05-20 19:19:22 sethsethseth___ is now known as sethsethseth
3418 2011-05-20 19:19:42 <AntiVigilante> long traces prevent attackers from creating false transactions
3419 2011-05-20 19:19:43 eldon has joined
3420 2011-05-20 19:19:58 <erbs> L-)
3421 2011-05-20 19:20:05 sethsethseth_ has joined
3422 2011-05-20 19:20:06 <justmoon> cuddlefish: I think with your style of pool miners would have to verify transactions, whereas in a "trusted" pool only the pool would have to - once verifying transactions becomes a cost factor that might make your style of pool unattractive I think
3423 2011-05-20 19:20:25 <cuddlefish> justmoon: No.
3424 2011-05-20 19:20:38 <cuddlefish> The miners just do share-based mining as usual
3425 2011-05-20 19:20:47 lumos has joined
3426 2011-05-20 19:20:51 <cuddlefish> The *only* difference
3427 2011-05-20 19:20:58 <cuddlefish> is that the block generation's done client-side.
3428 2011-05-20 19:21:02 <UukGoblin> BlueMatt, ok a sendmany from '' with 2 transactions for 24.11174074 seems to have worked, but a similar one from 'test1' hasn't
3429 2011-05-20 19:21:14 sethsethseth__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3430 2011-05-20 19:21:20 <justmoon> exactly and block generation requires ECDSA signature verification for all transactions the miner wants to include
3431 2011-05-20 19:21:36 McMini has left ()
3432 2011-05-20 19:21:38 sethsethseth_ has quit (Client Quit)
3433 2011-05-20 19:21:41 <justmoon> gavin believes that will become a major cost factor once bitcoin scales way up
3434 2011-05-20 19:21:45 <tyran37> he could just choose to include none if it's an issue
3435 2011-05-20 19:22:00 <justmoon> tyran37, that would be terrible for the network
3436 2011-05-20 19:22:08 <justmoon> he'd also miss out on fees
3437 2011-05-20 19:22:34 <lumos> could you have a cryptocurrency from seti at home and dna folding?
3438 2011-05-20 19:22:44 <cuddlefish> justmoon: Yes, that is a problem.
3439 2011-05-20 19:22:47 sethsethseth_ has joined
3440 2011-05-20 19:22:48 <UukGoblin> it created 9fc71ee2d01e7fa5cadcc57d67e70429cb77e594caf7357c8ba14ecd45b596ee which actually split my generation block
3441 2011-05-20 19:22:49 <justmoon> lumos: no it needs to be work that is quickly verified
3442 2011-05-20 19:22:56 <UukGoblin> there's definitely a bug somewhere related to listaccounts at least
3443 2011-05-20 19:23:00 <justmoon> cuddlefish, not for a long time though, so for now it's a great idea
3444 2011-05-20 19:23:01 <lumos> justmoon, yes i know but
3445 2011-05-20 19:23:09 <gmaxwell> I was thinking that it might makes sense to put lower speed ECDSA validators on the hypothetical custom mining asic, as a mining chip would have basically no IO, both to close that risk, and to lower the power density.
3446 2011-05-20 19:23:12 <lfm> lumos no one can figure out how that would work
3447 2011-05-20 19:23:44 <lumos> lfm, dna folding also need a proof of work to know its not just crap you have submitted, don't they use a signature?
3448 2011-05-20 19:23:51 <justmoon> lumos: it also needs to be tamperproof, i.e. the work has to depend on the input data as only a secure hashing function does
3449 2011-05-20 19:23:56 sethsethseth has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3450 2011-05-20 19:23:59 <lfm> lumos, in any case it would not be decentralized
3451 2011-05-20 19:24:04 <gmaxwell> e.g. surround unrolled hash engines with half or quarter clocked ECDSA validators.
3452 2011-05-20 19:24:12 <lumos> lfm, this is true, but its still a good thing for it
3453 2011-05-20 19:24:21 <lumos> lfm, and i trust a scientist more than a bank
3454 2011-05-20 19:24:30 <UukGoblin> I think that may be because I might have two accounts named 'test1'
3455 2011-05-20 19:24:46 <erbs> testmyvest
3456 2011-05-20 19:24:49 <lfm> lumos, the servers could just issue credit for work if they wanted and see what people offer to sell for credits
3457 2011-05-20 19:25:20 <UukGoblin> and I think sendmany is going crazy because of it too... why does sendmany require a fromaddress anyway? :-O
3458 2011-05-20 19:25:32 <erbs> lumos, you definitely could have a proof-of-work chain based on useful work like protein folding, physical simulation, factorization, etc
3459 2011-05-20 19:25:40 <lumos> lfm, i think the dna offer credits or some sort of points
3460 2011-05-20 19:25:47 <UukGoblin> (yes, dbdump.py shows that I do have 2 accounts named "test1")
3461 2011-05-20 19:25:55 <lfm> lumos but are they tradable credits
3462 2011-05-20 19:26:02 <lumos> erbs, what about for distributed computing of something like cellular automaton
3463 2011-05-20 19:26:08 <lumos> lfm, no but you could sell your account
3464 2011-05-20 19:26:44 <lfm> lumos ok then there is a sort of economy developing around it already spontanious
3465 2011-05-20 19:27:00 <lumos> lfm, no because no one is doing that, people need to be told it has value
3466 2011-05-20 19:27:04 <erbs> sure anything that you want to compute would work, as long as verifying work can be done quickly deterministically or probabilistically
3467 2011-05-20 19:27:09 <justmoon> lumos: if you have a central server, why do you need proof of work at all?
3468 2011-05-20 19:27:21 <cuddlefish> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137.0
3469 2011-05-20 19:27:42 <lfm> lumos, ok thats what I mean by tradable, allow you to bid on other people's credits
3470 2011-05-20 19:27:48 Unreal89 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3471 2011-05-20 19:27:57 <lfm> and then add them to your own total
3472 2011-05-20 19:28:10 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3473 2011-05-20 19:28:15 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: um, how does the pool get the btc to distribute?
3474 2011-05-20 19:28:18 AAA_awright_ has joined
3475 2011-05-20 19:28:30 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: the pool's bitcoin address is still in blocks
3476 2011-05-20 19:28:40 <gmaxwell> You need to ship the whole block to the pool
3477 2011-05-20 19:28:44 <gmaxwell> so it can validate the share
3478 2011-05-20 19:28:44 <lumos> justmoon, the central server still needs to check for proof of work?
3479 2011-05-20 19:29:01 <gmaxwell> If you just send the header, then they won't know who the payout is made to.
3480 2011-05-20 19:29:07 agarttha has left ("Leaving")
3481 2011-05-20 19:29:08 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: how is it verified that every miner has it there?
3482 2011-05-20 19:29:20 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: send the block with the share.
3483 2011-05-20 19:29:24 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: Because it's in the shares.
3484 2011-05-20 19:29:27 <lfm> gmaxwell: send the header and the coinbase txn
3485 2011-05-20 19:29:40 <justmoon> lumos: so you'd do proof of work so you can have distributed issuance of the money?
3486 2011-05-20 19:29:49 <mtrlt> hm
3487 2011-05-20 19:29:58 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: that would work.
3488 2011-05-20 19:30:01 <sethsethseth_> would be a good idea to associate a bitcoin address with a reputation service?
3489 2011-05-20 19:30:15 <jrabbit> sethsethseth_: could be
3490 2011-05-20 19:30:28 <jrabbit> users woudl need to stick with the address though
3491 2011-05-20 19:30:32 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: it would close a lot of attacks, I think. Though the pools could still enforce rules.
3492 2011-05-20 19:30:44 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: Yup!
3493 2011-05-20 19:30:45 <cuddlefish> bobw!
3494 2011-05-20 19:30:52 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: because a pool could refuse payout on shares that didn't conform to the rules.
3495 2011-05-20 19:30:53 <lumos> justmoon, yes
3496 2011-05-20 19:31:02 <edcba> just use some pgp thingy and sign something
3497 2011-05-20 19:31:02 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: Exactly! :D :D :D
3498 2011-05-20 19:31:14 <sethsethseth_> you could at least verify that you own that address by sending a micro payment from it
3499 2011-05-20 19:31:16 <edcba> i don't see why you want a bitcoin addr
3500 2011-05-20 19:31:23 <cuddlefish> edcba: Because
3501 2011-05-20 19:31:33 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: e.g. your block may never extend the block of (competing pool). :( but at least they couldn't be secretive about that.
3502 2011-05-20 19:31:35 <cuddlefish> otherwise, miners don't have to send the block payout
3503 2011-05-20 19:31:43 <mtrlt> how does the pool confirm that it actually gets the money. i'm sure you can't just do it with the merkle root?
3504 2011-05-20 19:31:43 <lfm> sethsethseth_: you cant shoose the address to send btc from
3505 2011-05-20 19:31:46 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: Yep
3506 2011-05-20 19:31:46 <justmoon> lumos: ok, yeah, as long as the verification of the work is pretty secure and the central authority is benevolent it should work
3507 2011-05-20 19:31:51 <edcba> and to verify you own an addr you don't need to send anything...
3508 2011-05-20 19:31:55 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: They just see the block generation TX
3509 2011-05-20 19:31:59 <lumos> justmoon, thats cool thanks
3510 2011-05-20 19:32:19 <XX01XX> lfm... you can if it's the only one int he wallet with any money.
3511 2011-05-20 19:32:25 AAA_awright has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3512 2011-05-20 19:32:26 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: how does the pool verify that the block generation TX is actually there
3513 2011-05-20 19:32:34 <mtrlt> i'm missing something here.
3514 2011-05-20 19:32:39 <sethsethseth_> how does one verify he owns an address?
3515 2011-05-20 19:32:39 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: you send the whole thing with the share.
3516 2011-05-20 19:32:45 <lfm> mtrlt: the pool will see the txn in the block chain
3517 2011-05-20 19:32:46 <mtrlt> whole what?
3518 2011-05-20 19:32:54 <mtrlt> whole block, and not just block header?
3519 2011-05-20 19:33:05 <justmoon> gmaxwell, wouldn't the merkle branch containing the coinbase be enough?
3520 2011-05-20 19:33:07 <edcba> sethsethseth_: you have a public key hashing into that addr
3521 2011-05-20 19:33:09 <lfm> mtrlt: ya
3522 2011-05-20 19:33:19 <mtrlt> ok now i understand :P
3523 2011-05-20 19:33:42 <gmaxwell> justmoon: yes.
3524 2011-05-20 19:33:47 Guest37782 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3525 2011-05-20 19:33:54 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: but not just the block header. right.
3526 2011-05-20 19:33:56 <lfm> whole blocks could be a lot of traffic if every share has copies of all current txn for the block
3527 2011-05-20 19:34:11 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: it would greatly improve reliablity _and_ lower bandwidth needs to I think.
3528 2011-05-20 19:34:18 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: yup!
3529 2011-05-20 19:34:21 <mtrlt> hmm
3530 2011-05-20 19:34:23 <gmaxwell> because the clients don't need to getwork.
3531 2011-05-20 19:34:27 <cuddlefish> and prevent rogue pool operators from double-spending
3532 2011-05-20 19:34:28 <gmaxwell> The shares would be fairly rare.
3533 2011-05-20 19:34:43 <gmaxwell> And you could up the difficulty for shares if they weren't quite rare enough for you.
3534 2011-05-20 19:34:54 <mtrlt> mmyea
3535 2011-05-20 19:35:07 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: it also prevents rogue miners from double-spending too.
3536 2011-05-20 19:35:22 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: because the pool won't give them BTC for crazy shares.
3537 2011-05-20 19:35:33 <cuddlefish> yup
3538 2011-05-20 19:35:39 <mtrlt> yea i'd like to see that in action, i don't believe reduced bandwidth without seeing :P
3539 2011-05-20 19:35:40 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: so they'd have to solomine to produce crazy shares.
3540 2011-05-20 19:35:41 * cuddlefish feels like a genius
3541 2011-05-20 19:35:47 <lfm> gmaxwell: you could just upload the merkle hashes if they are the same as previous merkle hashes
3542 2011-05-20 19:35:53 <mtrlt> but otherwise it looks great
3543 2011-05-20 19:35:55 <justmoon> cuddlefish, wondering if your pool would be vulnerable to this: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9127.0
3544 2011-05-20 19:36:14 <cuddlefish> justmoon: Nope
3545 2011-05-20 19:36:18 <justmoon> probably not if the pool requires a custom string in the coinbase
3546 2011-05-20 19:36:20 <justmoon> yeah
3547 2011-05-20 19:36:24 <cuddlefish> the pools address is in the generation TX
3548 2011-05-20 19:36:28 <cuddlefish> the ONLY difference
3549 2011-05-20 19:36:30 <justmoon> ah right
3550 2011-05-20 19:36:34 <justmoon> derp
3551 2011-05-20 19:37:11 <lumos> is there any bitcoin shorting
3552 2011-05-20 19:37:22 <cuddlefish> is that everything but the difficulty and generation TX
3553 2011-05-20 19:37:28 <cuddlefish> is set by your very own bitcoind.
3554 2011-05-20 19:37:29 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: how do we strong arm pools into changing to this?
3555 2011-05-20 19:37:36 <lfm> justmoon: they probably WOULD need special "extranonce" or some such so people are not duplicating searches
3556 2011-05-20 19:37:37 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: hammer.
3557 2011-05-20 19:37:42 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: you can make the BW as low as you want by increasing share difficulty.
3558 2011-05-20 19:38:04 <mtrlt> gmaxwell: true
3559 2011-05-20 19:38:05 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: Well, we first need poclbm to change to this
3560 2011-05-20 19:38:06 <justmoon> lfm: duplicating searches? what do you mean?
3561 2011-05-20 19:38:20 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: well, it's actually a change to bitcoind
3562 2011-05-20 19:38:28 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: you put the pooling in bitcoind then you mine solo.
3563 2011-05-20 19:38:46 <lfm> justmoon: if two miners have exactly the same coinbase txn and the same timestamp they are duplicating their search
3564 2011-05-20 19:38:47 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: I guess that'd work too
3565 2011-05-20 19:38:48 <mtrlt> gmaxwell: hmm yeah. 1 minute per share should be good..
3566 2011-05-20 19:38:50 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: then you don't change the miners, and you need bitcoind's help because it knows how to do tx processing.
3567 2011-05-20 19:39:03 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: good punt
3568 2011-05-20 19:39:07 <justmoon> lfm: gotcha
3569 2011-05-20 19:39:07 <gmaxwell> mtrlt: right now we're at like 10 seconds on random_gpu...
3570 2011-05-20 19:39:11 <mtrlt> yeah
3571 2011-05-20 19:39:12 <TD_> good evening
3572 2011-05-20 19:39:17 <justmoon> lfm: you can tell I'm not an expert on mining ;)
3573 2011-05-20 19:39:40 <mtrlt> so yea this thing seems totally awesome :P
3574 2011-05-20 19:39:46 <lfm> justmoon: so you should have like a user number in the extranonce (part thereof)
3575 2011-05-20 19:39:55 <justmoon> lfm: yep
3576 2011-05-20 19:39:57 Shadyman has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3577 2011-05-20 19:40:10 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3578 2011-05-20 19:40:14 <tyran37> just give each user its own address?
3579 2011-05-20 19:40:16 <erbs> mine time
3580 2011-05-20 19:40:26 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: you've mostly eliminated dos attacks on pools to... or at least they don't break the network.
3581 2011-05-20 19:40:27 <cuddlefish> tyran37: Yes, exactly
3582 2011-05-20 19:40:33 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: yep!
3583 2011-05-20 19:40:39 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: good job. :)
3584 2011-05-20 19:40:39 <justmoon> tyran37, the payout needs to go to the pool, so they can distribute it
3585 2011-05-20 19:40:41 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: miners should submit winning shares to the network and the pools.
3586 2011-05-20 19:40:52 <cuddlefish> 1KUFnCRVYrrLWG5LFLJPWKAZCmZbpPsuE6, just sayin'
3587 2011-05-20 19:41:03 <mtrlt> lol
3588 2011-05-20 19:41:15 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: this way that even if the pool is down the only harm is that people don't get paid for shares. which sucks but the network stays up.
3589 2011-05-20 19:41:19 Shadyman has joined
3590 2011-05-20 19:41:22 <mtrlt> my block chain is missing like 1000 blocks and i'm on 3G. no btc right now, sorry ;)
3591 2011-05-20 19:41:33 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: and when the pool comes back up
3592 2011-05-20 19:41:34 <gmaxwell> and pools could pay for stale shares during downtime if they like.
3593 2011-05-20 19:41:38 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: they can... yep
3594 2011-05-20 19:41:42 <justmoon> cuddlefish, 1 BTC on the way :D
3595 2011-05-20 19:42:05 <gmaxwell> It's a pretty simple change to bitcoind too I think:
3596 2011-05-20 19:42:21 <jrabbit> wait what did cuddlefish do?
3597 2011-05-20 19:42:26 <gmaxwell> (1) change the address for the generated tx. (2) something to send off the shares.
3598 2011-05-20 19:42:30 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: 5 btc incoming ;)
3599 2011-05-20 19:42:31 <cuddlefish> jrabbit: magical pools!
3600 2011-05-20 19:42:36 <mtrlt> forgot that i had funds in mtgox.
3601 2011-05-20 19:42:38 <gmaxwell> jrabbit: fixed the consolidation problem.
3602 2011-05-20 19:42:44 <Titeuf_87> wouldn't it be better if a miner finds a block to just broadcast it to the whole network instead of just the pool?
3603 2011-05-20 19:42:49 <cuddlefish> jrabbit: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137.0
3604 2011-05-20 19:42:55 <gmaxwell> Titeuf_87: yes, I said that above:
3605 2011-05-20 19:43:02 <jrmithdobbs> ya i missed and can't find the begining of this conversation
3606 2011-05-20 19:43:09 <gmaxwell> Titeuf_87: he should do bothâ the pool probably has better connectivity.
3607 2011-05-20 19:43:21 <Titeuf_87> gmaxwell, ok! Didn't see it was already suggested
3608 2011-05-20 19:43:48 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: the reason we broadcast only to the pool, is so we don't have to check against both share + "real-world" difficulty
3609 2011-05-20 19:44:01 <cuddlefish> probably not too much overhead to do both, though.
3610 2011-05-20 19:44:14 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: it's an extra if that will happen once per ten seconds.
3611 2011-05-20 19:44:27 <gmaxwell> (or 1 minute if you up the share difficulty)
3612 2011-05-20 19:44:37 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: yeah, probably check both.
3613 2011-05-20 19:44:46 <jrabbit> lol just implemtent it :P
3614 2011-05-20 19:45:15 <XX01XX> What's the solution? Proofs of work for pool is BLK announcments at lower difficulty than protocol?
3615 2011-05-20 19:45:29 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: also, if the pool stops accepting shares it should just start using it's own address until the pool does again, so it just goes solo if the pool goes down.
3616 2011-05-20 19:45:48 <cuddlefish> gmaxwell: well, it *can* do that
3617 2011-05-20 19:45:57 <cuddlefish> actually
3618 2011-05-20 19:45:59 cal_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3619 2011-05-20 19:46:00 <cuddlefish> yes, it has to do that
3620 2011-05-20 19:46:02 eldon has left ()
3621 2011-05-20 19:46:04 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: easier to code.
3622 2011-05-20 19:46:06 <sethsethseth_> anyone know how to figure the chance of a stale block? trying to figure out how much benefit solo has over pool from eliminating stales
3623 2011-05-20 19:46:34 <gmaxwell> cuddlefish: buffering up a lot of shares for later submission sucks.
3624 2011-05-20 19:46:40 <jrmithdobbs> sethsethseth_: just run a pool that implements longpoll/etc between bitcoind and your miners
3625 2011-05-20 19:46:53 <jrmithdobbs> sethsethseth_: then it's 0
3626 2011-05-20 19:46:59 <cuddlefish> sethsethseth_: with my plan, it's also 0
3627 2011-05-20 19:47:06 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: not so...
3628 2011-05-20 19:47:22 <T_X> does anyone know what happened to nullvoid?
3629 2011-05-20 19:47:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: the difference between doing so in a pool and doing so solo is effectively 0, i mean
3630 2011-05-20 19:47:27 <jrmithdobbs> in that case
3631 2011-05-20 19:47:40 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: e.g. I was seeing a solid 2% stale rate on deepbit.
3632 2011-05-20 19:48:19 <erbs> this is awesome cuddlefish
3633 2011-05-20 19:48:24 <cuddlefish> erbs: ikr?
3634 2011-05-20 19:48:38 <cuddlefish> BRB, schooltime again!
3635 2011-05-20 19:48:52 * cuddlefish is away: school
3636 2011-05-20 19:48:55 <erbs> now add a way for miners to audit the total # of shares in the pool so they kow they arent getting stiffed on the reward for each share
3637 2011-05-20 19:48:56 Speeder has quit (Quit: Speeder)
3638 2011-05-20 19:48:56 <jrabbit> gmaxwell: you weren't running longpolling then :P
3639 2011-05-20 19:49:00 <XX01XX> What was cuddlefish's solution?
3640 2011-05-20 19:49:06 <gmaxwell> jrabbit: it 'twas.
3641 2011-05-20 19:49:26 <jrabbit> gmaxwell: maybe you switched within the time of the average?
3642 2011-05-20 19:49:26 <gmaxwell> Part of the issue was that deepbit was 150ms away from me with nice bursts of packetloss.
3643 2011-05-20 19:50:23 m00p has joined
3644 2011-05-20 19:50:36 <erbs> each miner can just broadcoast his share # (maybe embed it in a 0 btc transaction).. then you can count the total shares to verify that your payout is fair
3645 2011-05-20 19:50:36 <jrabbit> even mining on a pool isn't worth my time now without a 4 core xeon :P
3646 2011-05-20 19:50:56 <jrabbit> erbs: more transactions aren't really a good idea
3647 2011-05-20 19:51:09 <gmaxwell> erbs: miners could lie to make the pool look bad.
3648 2011-05-20 19:51:11 <T_X> okay, then other but related question (if no one knows what happened to nullvoid + nullvoid.org): is there a website for all-time difficulty data?
3649 2011-05-20 19:51:22 <erbs> gmaxwell: lying would make them lose money
3650 2011-05-20 19:51:39 <gmaxwell> erbs: Why would it?
3651 2011-05-20 19:51:46 <jrmithdobbs> erbs: and if their goal is to shuffle users from one pool to another?
3652 2011-05-20 19:52:00 <erbs> because their shares are worth less and anyone can verify the # of shares by auditing the log
3653 2011-05-20 19:52:09 <XX01XX> T_X... there is a chart somewhere that tracks difficulty to since the beginning of time, but I can't remember the URL
3654 2011-05-20 19:52:27 <erbs> you can include a bit.ly link to your share log - checking a few thousand is enough to ensure 99% are valid
3655 2011-05-20 19:52:33 <AntiVigilante> how does global difficulty get set?
3656 2011-05-20 19:52:36 <gmaxwell> Yes, publishing your shares works.
3657 2011-05-20 19:52:43 <gmaxwell> Publishing the share number does not.
3658 2011-05-20 19:52:48 tyran37 has left ()
3659 2011-05-20 19:52:54 <gmaxwell> publishing your shares = lots of data, however.
3660 2011-05-20 19:52:55 <erbs> obviously you need both pieces of information
3661 2011-05-20 19:53:00 <XX01XX> AntiVigilante... it's based on the time it took to discover 2016 blocks
3662 2011-05-20 19:53:12 <erbs> that goes without saying...
3663 2011-05-20 19:53:33 <erbs> gmaxwell - you are "publishing" them now anyway by sending them to the pool
3664 2011-05-20 19:53:43 <erbs> you may as well put them somewhere where everyone can access it
3665 2011-05-20 19:53:57 <AntiVigilante> so 2016 blocks is 100,800 bitcoins?
3666 2011-05-20 19:54:06 <jrmithdobbs> actually
3667 2011-05-20 19:54:09 <jrmithdobbs> that is a problem
3668 2011-05-20 19:54:23 <jrmithdobbs> cuddlefish: pools can no longer decide what txns to include?
3669 2011-05-20 19:54:31 <gmaxwell> AntiVigilante: at the moment.
3670 2011-05-20 19:54:35 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: thats the goal.
3671 2011-05-20 19:54:37 <AntiVigilante> cuddlefish is at school
3672 2011-05-20 19:54:41 <erbs> the share admin has an incentive to payout as little as possible
3673 2011-05-20 19:54:41 <XX01XX> AntiVigilante... yes
3674 2011-05-20 19:54:56 <erbs> auditing shares eliminates that possibility
3675 2011-05-20 19:54:58 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: the users do, though the pools can refused to pay for shares that don't meet certian rules.
3676 2011-05-20 19:54:59 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but i think excluding fee-less txns is an acceptable pool model
3677 2011-05-20 19:55:19 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: then don't pay for shares that include fee-less txn.
3678 2011-05-20 19:55:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: or txns with absurdly low fees for large chunks
3679 2011-05-20 19:55:45 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: agreed. Thats solved though. The pool just doesn't pay you if you submit shares that look like that.
3680 2011-05-20 19:55:49 <XX01XX> jrmithdobbs... I thought the whole poit was to be able to skip banks and their stupid fees.
3681 2011-05-20 19:56:07 <sethsethseth_> is there a program i can run that will tell me how much bandwidth bitcoin client and the miners are using on windows?
3682 2011-05-20 19:56:09 <gmaxwell> infinitesmal anti-spam fees is not a stupid fee.
3683 2011-05-20 19:56:13 <AntiVigilante> XX01XX: it;s to ski[ their Control not their fees
3684 2011-05-20 19:56:22 <XX01XX> seth... Windows Task Manager
3685 2011-05-20 19:56:32 <jrmithdobbs> XX01XX: someone has to pay somewhere
3686 2011-05-20 19:56:36 <erbs> pools will not reject shares.. they would lose the bounty
3687 2011-05-20 19:56:36 <jrmithdobbs> this isn't free money
3688 2011-05-20 19:56:37 <XX01XX> Or System Monitor
3689 2011-05-20 19:56:39 <gmaxwell> s/infinitesmal/infinitesimal/
3690 2011-05-20 19:56:50 <gmaxwell> also, this scales ecdsa capacity.
3691 2011-05-20 19:57:08 <gmaxwell> _immensely_
3692 2011-05-20 19:57:23 <XX01XX> But why should I have to pay their fees just because they've driven up the cost of block generation so high?
3693 2011-05-20 19:57:23 rcsheets has quit (Read error: error:1408F119:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:decryption failed or bad record mac)
3694 2011-05-20 19:57:26 <AntiVigilante> instead of a fee can it be like a donation pool
3695 2011-05-20 19:57:50 rcsheets has joined
3696 2011-05-20 19:57:53 <gmaxwell> XX01XX: because the high block generation cost is what makes bitcoin secure.
3697 2011-05-20 19:57:55 <jrmithdobbs> XX01XX: you don't. you'll just wait for your txn to get processed by someone who doesn't require them
3698 2011-05-20 19:58:00 <jrmithdobbs> that too
3699 2011-05-20 19:58:01 <gmaxwell> and that.
3700 2011-05-20 19:58:16 <edcba> someone that can be you !
3701 2011-05-20 19:58:27 <XX01XX> You've created a red queen scenario. "We have to charge these fees because we have to do so much computation to discover blocks... we have to do so much computation because we want to charge the fees."
3702 2011-05-20 19:58:30 <gmaxwell> Also: this proposal balances things a bit, it makes it so that pools can't have secret txn policies.
3703 2011-05-20 19:58:44 <gmaxwell> XX01XX: ...no. Come on, you're smarter than that.
3704 2011-05-20 19:58:54 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no he's not
3705 2011-05-20 19:59:10 <XX01XX> gmaxwell... nah, I get the reasons for making it difficult to control 50% of the computational power of the network.
3706 2011-05-20 19:59:24 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
3707 2011-05-20 19:59:32 niles has joined
3708 2011-05-20 19:59:39 <AntiVigilante> doesn't cuddle's idea fix the 50% threat?
3709 2011-05-20 19:59:43 <XX01XX> The probalem is that there's so much incentivization on controlling as much of the computing power of the network as possible, too
3710 2011-05-20 19:59:50 <jrmithdobbs> AntiVigilante: for pools yes
3711 2011-05-20 19:59:50 <gmaxwell> AntiVigilante: it makes it so that pools are not a 50% threat.
3712 2011-05-20 20:00:53 <AntiVigilante> have you guys used etherpads for discussion clean up?
3713 2011-05-20 20:00:56 CydeWeys has joined
3714 2011-05-20 20:00:58 <XX01XX> Didn't we just figure out that the pool share validator could start denying shares using blocks not meeting their fee requirements?
3715 2011-05-20 20:01:20 <jrmithdobbs> XX01XX: they can deny payouts, sure
3716 2011-05-20 20:01:42 drhodes has left ()
3717 2011-05-20 20:01:44 <XX01XX> SO... then the users individually all decide to enact the txn rules
3718 2011-05-20 20:01:59 <XX01XX> And if you don't pay your fee, your txn doesn't get confirmed in a timely manner.
3719 2011-05-20 20:02:47 <XX01XX> Can you use scripting to control what happens to fee money? So you could only pay fees to pools you liked?
3720 2011-05-20 20:02:56 <AntiVigilante> pads turn 50 Anonymous beavises into the headless suit batman
3721 2011-05-20 20:03:09 usm has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
3722 2011-05-20 20:03:18 <sethsethseth_> how do i convert the B/sec i see in the task manager into a larger unit? can never remember what the capital letter means and whatnot
3723 2011-05-20 20:03:55 <AntiVigilante> seth blame 300 baud modems
3724 2011-05-20 20:04:21 <XX01XX> Scripting on fees would work pretty well, actually.
3725 2011-05-20 20:04:56 <XX01XX> Basically allows you to negotiate price with the hashpools
3726 2011-05-20 20:05:00 <AntiVigilante> you could even have "negative fees"
3727 2011-05-20 20:05:02 Diablo-D3 has joined
3728 2011-05-20 20:05:11 <erbs> imagine a case where everyone is in the same pool - then everyone gets paid. anyone who does a moderate amount of work (say a difficulty equivalent to 12 cpu hours) should simply be paid by the protocol (which would still limit it to 50 btc per 10 minutes)
3729 2011-05-20 20:05:12 <XX01XX> AntiVigilante... they can hash empty blocks
3730 2011-05-20 20:05:18 <erbs> you dont really need pools
3731 2011-05-20 20:05:42 <XX01XX> erbs... yes... it would probably work better to just pay people for hashing, period.
3732 2011-05-20 20:06:16 <XX01XX> have the client submit their shortest block every ten minutes as proof of work.
3733 2011-05-20 20:06:43 <erbs> hash on your own, once you have a moderate difficulty (chances of finding it in < 12 hours is < 1%) you extend the block. this would have the effect that transactions are instantly added to the chain
3734 2011-05-20 20:07:24 <AntiVigilante> that is a donation pool would move a given amount per transaction into the donation box
3735 2011-05-20 20:08:03 <AntiVigilante> XX01XX: it would force people to get a career in hashing
3736 2011-05-20 20:08:05 <AntiVigilante> lol no
3737 2011-05-20 20:08:12 <XX01XX> AntiVigilante... no it wouldn't.
3738 2011-05-20 20:08:30 <XX01XX> It would mean that ANY contribution to the suppost of the protocol could be rewarded.
3739 2011-05-20 20:08:34 <XX01XX> support
3740 2011-05-20 20:08:42 <XX01XX> support*
3741 2011-05-20 20:08:47 <XX01XX> WTF
3742 2011-05-20 20:08:53 <jrmithdobbs> erbs: that's a completely new protocol though
3743 2011-05-20 20:09:36 <XX01XX> jrmithdobbs... not really, the only thing that changes is the economics. The p2p blockchain continues as normal.
3744 2011-05-20 20:10:37 <erbs> (once 50btc is paid out, remaining blocks in that time segment only collect tx fees, no bounties)
3745 2011-05-20 20:10:53 <AntiVigilante> i think complexity help bc stay secure and in the end what give bc value is the communities it creates SAD (supply and demand) is bullshit as far as explaining the process of valuation
3746 2011-05-20 20:10:54 <XX01XX> okay... now he's talking abotu something weird.
3747 2011-05-20 20:12:11 anus has joined
3748 2011-05-20 20:12:23 <AntiVigilante> cuddle's idea enables faster community creation
3749 2011-05-20 20:12:38 <XX01XX> Pools are created because the original economic design doesn't incentivise user hashing properly. No one wants to do it if it's a lottery and they'll spend 40 years with a space heater with nothing to show for it.
3750 2011-05-20 20:12:42 guy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3751 2011-05-20 20:12:50 anus is now known as usm
3752 2011-05-20 20:13:03 <XX01XX> anus...
3753 2011-05-20 20:13:04 <AntiVigilante> XX01XX: like real life
3754 2011-05-20 20:13:37 <XX01XX> Sure... but if you don't have honest users contributing computing power the protocol becomes insecure as malicious branching of the blockchain becomes possible.
3755 2011-05-20 20:13:43 <erbs> the best way to audit shares is.. to store them in as transactions - so pick a difficulty level that doesn't create too many transactions (1 share per avg. user per day). then when a block is found, the payout flows to everyone who submitted a share automatically per the protocol
3756 2011-05-20 20:13:57 <erbs> the protocol pays instead of trusting a pool to validate/count shares and payout reliably
3757 2011-05-20 20:14:35 <XX01XX> erbs... or you could let people submit their shortest blk per day... and then calculate their hash rate based ont he difficulty of the hardest block they could create.
3758 2011-05-20 20:14:39 <AntiVigilante> your concern is exaggerated and the difficulty parameter can avert some sudden probability malfunction
3759 2011-05-20 20:14:44 <erbs> tru XX01XX
3760 2011-05-20 20:14:56 <neoeinstein> Anyone here that might have build a debug version of the client with symbols built for Windows that I might be able to use? I'm having trouble getting through the MinGW build sequence.
3761 2011-05-20 20:14:58 <erbs> AntiVigilante: preventing obvious fraud isnt an exagerated concern
3762 2011-05-20 20:15:19 <AntiVigilante> erbs I mean XX01XX
3763 2011-05-20 20:15:19 marlowe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3764 2011-05-20 20:15:23 <XX01XX> You'd get some people lucking out getting really short hashes that exagerate their share... but if you shorten the interval this should balance out.
3765 2011-05-20 20:16:01 eao has joined
3766 2011-05-20 20:16:19 <AntiVigilante> erbs: the 40 year space heater is an exaggeration
3767 2011-05-20 20:16:38 <XX01XX> AntiVigilante... ;;bc,calc 700
3768 2011-05-20 20:17:08 <AntiVigilante> XX01XX: same as with any venture
3769 2011-05-20 20:17:11 <erbs> so once a day you submit your hardest hash embedded in a tx.. then the next block automatically pays you based on your share of the total work done by others since the prev block
3770 2011-05-20 20:17:42 <AntiVigilante> if you try to do shit alone the space time continuum laughs at you
3771 2011-05-20 20:18:03 <XX01XX> erbs... except blocks are disocvered every ten minutes...
3772 2011-05-20 20:18:15 <XX01XX> erbs... so your proof interval would need to be less than that, no?
3773 2011-05-20 20:18:44 <XX01XX> Actually... having blocks discovered LESS often isn't really a problem, though, is it?
3774 2011-05-20 20:18:51 <erbs> yeah which is fine.. not everyone is on the same day-schedule.. you would just restrict ppl from receiving payouts more often than once every 72 blocks
3775 2011-05-20 20:19:03 AAA_awright_ is now known as AAA_awright
3776 2011-05-20 20:19:08 <AntiVigilante> actually it has to be a lottery
3777 2011-05-20 20:19:32 <erbs> or just set the difficulty to be 1% chance of finding it in 24 hours on a commodity cpu
3778 2011-05-20 20:19:39 <AntiVigilante> this prevents having bitcoin being directly associated with a valuable item
3779 2011-05-20 20:19:44 <erbs> and reward anyone who submits with that diff (as a shoare of the total work)
3780 2011-05-20 20:20:11 <BlueMatt> wow #bitcoin-otc is #18 on the list of chans with the most users, #bitcoin-dev 51
3781 2011-05-20 20:20:27 <AntiVigilante> because anchoring to hard assets causes the system to experience major stalls
3782 2011-05-20 20:20:36 <AntiVigilante> so it has to be a lottery
3783 2011-05-20 20:20:42 <XX01XX> You could set it up like a race... and the shortest hash gets 25 (and incorporated into the blockchain)... second shortest gets 12.5... etc. etc.
3784 2011-05-20 20:20:44 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3785 2011-05-20 20:21:32 <AntiVigilante> the whole point of bitcoin is to be able to divide by zero in a responsible way
3786 2011-05-20 20:21:33 <AntiVigilante> :)
3787 2011-05-20 20:22:08 <AntiVigilante> sorry I'm full of Anon memes today
3788 2011-05-20 20:22:22 <erbs> so you crank away on your pc... after a day or 2 you found some useful proof of work.. you submit that as a tx. when the next block is found, you are rewarded your share of the total work since the prev block... megaminers with tons of gpus would submit lots of proofs, and get most of the rewards.. just as they do now, but small fry still get a proportional share without relying on a
3789 2011-05-20 20:22:22 <erbs> poolmaster to count the shares accurately
3790 2011-05-20 20:22:51 _io_ is now known as Anon5
3791 2011-05-20 20:23:14 eoss has joined
3792 2011-05-20 20:23:27 eao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3793 2011-05-20 20:23:51 <XX01XX> erbs... still means a casual miner goes several months before getting some piddling reward.
3794 2011-05-20 20:24:13 <erbs> well no since the chances of finding a minimum difficulty is once a day
3795 2011-05-20 20:24:27 <erbs> the reward would be the same as a pool, but without the trust issue
3796 2011-05-20 20:24:36 <XX01XX> You said 1% per day.
3797 2011-05-20 20:24:43 <XX01XX> NM
3798 2011-05-20 20:25:01 <Diablo-D3> http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/20/buy-the-bought-this.html\
3799 2011-05-20 20:25:04 <Diablo-D3> http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/20/buy-the-bought-this.html
3800 2011-05-20 20:25:05 <XX01XX> 95% per day on a average commodity cpu, you mean?
3801 2011-05-20 20:25:06 <Diablo-D3> YO DAWG
3802 2011-05-20 20:25:09 <Diablo-D3> I HEARD YOU LIKE BITCOINS
3803 2011-05-20 20:25:13 <erbs> right i mean over 50%
3804 2011-05-20 20:25:18 <erbs> yeah XX01XX
3805 2011-05-20 20:25:25 <Diablo-D3> SO YOU CAN BUY BITCOINS WITH YOUR BITCOINS WHILE YOU BITCOIN WHILE YOU BITCOIN
3806 2011-05-20 20:25:48 <XX01XX> Still has the problem that megaminers are spewing data.
3807 2011-05-20 20:25:49 Shadyman1 has joined
3808 2011-05-20 20:26:15 <gmaxwell> ...
3809 2011-05-20 20:26:39 <XX01XX> having people submit their shortest block on some interval achieves pretty much the same thing but doesn't generate a bunch of traffic.
3810 2011-05-20 20:26:52 <erbs> XX01XX, yeah you have to adjust the estimated time to get a proof based on how much data you want to store.. but the chain is the only place to audit data publically
3811 2011-05-20 20:27:12 <gmaxwell> erbs: don't fucking stuff the chain with stuff not needed to process tx.
3812 2011-05-20 20:27:29 <XX01XX> gmaxwell... like the 50BTC bounty/
3813 2011-05-20 20:27:32 <gmaxwell> you could just setup a couple of monitoring posts run by different people and send data there.
3814 2011-05-20 20:27:34 <erbs> its needed to process tx
3815 2011-05-20 20:27:37 * cuddlefish is away: I'm busy
3816 2011-05-20 20:28:11 <erbs> gmaxwell: and then how to you ensure payouts are done correctly instead of the pool keeping it for himself?
3817 2011-05-20 20:28:11 <gmaxwell> erbs: bitcoin is (currently) a flooding network, it's really inefficient to put any more than strictly required in the blockchain.
3818 2011-05-20 20:28:34 <XX01XX> You could have it in a parallel chain that gets pruned since you DON'T really need people's historic share data past the last payout interval.
3819 2011-05-20 20:28:34 <gmaxwell> erbs: the pools could cheat for a couple blocks, then people notice and stop using the pool. Whoptie do.
3820 2011-05-20 20:28:44 <erbs> gmaxwell: and then the next pool scams them
3821 2011-05-20 20:28:50 <erbs> gmaxwell: its not robust
3822 2011-05-20 20:29:04 <gmaxwell> erbs: then you start asking pool people for evidence that you can sue them into the dirt if you rip them off.
3823 2011-05-20 20:29:09 maikmerten has joined
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3827 2011-05-20 20:29:30 <AntiVigilante> gmaxwell: sue? over bitcoin? what court would hear it?
3828 2011-05-20 20:29:31 <gmaxwell> Don't freeking degrade the whole network to deal with such a silly miner-centric corner case.
3829 2011-05-20 20:29:33 <erbs> relying on a court to distribute bitcoins destroys the decentralized protocol
3830 2011-05-20 20:29:39 <gmaxwell> AntiVigilante: Any! jesus, people are weird.
3831 2011-05-20 20:29:53 <erbs> its not a corner case - its the heart of bitcoin - rewarding ppl for mining and preventing bigtime miners from consolidating
3832 2011-05-20 20:29:56 <gmaxwell> AntiVigilante: people enter civil litigation about all kinds of crazy stuff.
3833 2011-05-20 20:30:07 <XX01XX> gmaxwell... considering "silly miners" are the normal user at this point... it's not a corner case
3834 2011-05-20 20:30:17 <cuddlefish> (back)
3835 2011-05-20 20:30:52 <gmaxwell> XX01XX: it's an insane corner case which is adequately addresssed by independant validation.
3836 2011-05-20 20:31:04 <erbs> btw gmaxwell, the proofs of work could be dissapeared from the chain on the next block - you don't store it forever!
3837 2011-05-20 20:31:06 <AntiVigilante> hey cuddle you started a fight - we are moving to "then they attack you" pretty fast. you know what happens after that
3838 2011-05-20 20:31:09 <gmaxwell> You don't ask bitcoin to validate that everyone you buy something from isn't ripping you off.
3839 2011-05-20 20:31:21 <XX01XX> erbs... you still have to send them around, and they still flood the network.
3840 2011-05-20 20:31:36 Shadyman1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3841 2011-05-20 20:31:41 <gmaxwell> erbs: there is no need for anyone but someone validating it to know about the data... clients that don't mine outnumber miners thousands to one now most likely.
3842 2011-05-20 20:31:43 <erbs> XX01XX: its not a flood if its basically 1 per avg user per day
3843 2011-05-20 20:31:53 <erbs> gmaxwell: and that is precisely the problem
3844 2011-05-20 20:31:58 <gmaxwell> XX01XX: only by cranking the @#$@# out of the varience can you lower it to 1 per user pre day.
3845 2011-05-20 20:32:01 <erbs> bigtime miners running the show and determining the rules
3846 2011-05-20 20:32:01 <gmaxwell> s/pre/per/
3847 2011-05-20 20:32:17 m00p has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3848 2011-05-20 20:32:32 <erbs> its obviously feasible and necessary to prevent an oligopoly
3849 2011-05-20 20:32:40 <gmaxwell> ...
3850 2011-05-20 20:32:45 <AntiVigilante> ok folks this where lack of evolution gets us in trouble
3851 2011-05-20 20:32:45 <erbs> bigtime miners should be all for it - they still get paid the lino's share of the rewards
3852 2011-05-20 20:32:51 <gmaxwell> I think you're trolling.
3853 2011-05-20 20:32:56 <erbs> gmaxwell - not an argument
3854 2011-05-20 20:33:33 <gmaxwell> erbs: You're spewing paranoid nonsence as far as I can tell.
3855 2011-05-20 20:33:43 <erbs> gmaxwell - than you cant tell much...
3856 2011-05-20 20:33:44 <AntiVigilante> erbs miners make a profit over the cost of electricity and hardware
3857 2011-05-20 20:33:48 <diki> price went down a lo...
3858 2011-05-20 20:33:56 <diki> *lot
3859 2011-05-20 20:34:05 <gmaxwell> erbs: You've made no argument why advertising your shares to in independant party isn't enough.
3860 2011-05-20 20:34:09 <erbs> gmaxwell - the fact that you do not understand why oligopolies are bad seems like a failure to appreciate basic economics on your part :)
3861 2011-05-20 20:34:14 <Mookman288> Did someone introduce a lot into the circulation, diki?
3862 2011-05-20 20:34:16 <XX01XX> It's probably not going to drop below 6 until the speculators with their buy commands are full
3863 2011-05-20 20:34:26 <gmaxwell> erbs: because someone might still 100 BTC once and be out of business forever? get over it.
3864 2011-05-20 20:34:37 discHead has joined
3865 2011-05-20 20:34:42 <erbs> gmaxwell: "independent parties" aren't trustworthy
3866 2011-05-20 20:35:08 <gmaxwell> erbs: nor are software developers.
3867 2011-05-20 20:35:09 <erbs> gmaxwell: why should anyone have to accept being screwed over unless theyre a bigtime miner?
3868 2011-05-20 20:35:41 <neoeinstein> erbs, this is a problem that needs to be addressed as a part of the bitcoin ecosystem, but probably not as part of the bitcoin core.
3869 2011-05-20 20:35:46 <gmaxwell> erbs: I can break into your house and still your computersâ probably manage to capture you wallet too. OH NO.
3870 2011-05-20 20:35:52 <diki> 5.9101...those idiots
3871 2011-05-20 20:35:58 <erbs> gmaxwell - huh? stop trollng bro
3872 2011-05-20 20:35:59 <gmaxwell> I agree the ecosystem needs to address it.
3873 2011-05-20 20:36:09 <XX01XX> Never before have I been so worng so fast ;D
3874 2011-05-20 20:36:23 <XX01XX> actually that's probably not true.
3875 2011-05-20 20:36:33 <gmaxwell> erbs: You're asking for a radical protocol redesign which would drastically reduce its already pitiful efficiency for the sake of low value attacks which have never happened.
3876 2011-05-20 20:36:38 <erbs> in the next block you prune out the submitted medium-difficulty proofs. the payouts were made to the miners who participated
3877 2011-05-20 20:36:55 <erbs> gmaxwell: it increases efficiency and hashing power
3878 2011-05-20 20:37:13 <gmaxwell> erbs: but you've now flodded a gigabyte of data to tens of thousands of systems who were online, even once it was pruned.
3879 2011-05-20 20:37:43 <erbs> gmaxwell: no you don't. you have 1 tx roughly per user who mines
3880 2011-05-20 20:37:54 <erbs> per day
3881 2011-05-20 20:38:00 Anon5 is now known as io-
3882 2011-05-20 20:38:06 <XX01XX> one blk... not one txn
3883 2011-05-20 20:38:07 bill_stickers has joined
3884 2011-05-20 20:38:24 <erbs> one tx which is then dropped from the chain after the payout is made
3885 2011-05-20 20:38:28 <gmaxwell> erbs: and how do you propose that?
3886 2011-05-20 20:38:36 ArtForzZz is now known as ArtForz
3887 2011-05-20 20:38:45 blueadept has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3888 2011-05-20 20:40:05 <gmaxwell> (without making pools little better than solo)
3889 2011-05-20 20:40:39 <erbs> consider the case where theres only one pool, and everyone participates. each participant has to audit the shares of every other participant
3890 2011-05-20 20:41:18 <erbs> if shares are at a reasonable difficulty (chances of 1 per day = 50%), then the protocol can self-audit everyone's work
3891 2011-05-20 20:41:38 justmoon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3892 2011-05-20 20:41:46 Kiba` has joined
3893 2011-05-20 20:42:09 justmoon has joined
3894 2011-05-20 20:42:09 <erbs> a new block is accepted if it pays out to all the miners who submitted a share in that cycle (you can even have the protocol release fees after a certain level is reached)
3895 2011-05-20 20:42:12 <XX01XX> "reasonable difficulty" is what gets us into this... just have the users subit their highest difficulty block as proof of work...
3896 2011-05-20 20:42:17 Shadyman2 has left ()
3897 2011-05-20 20:42:48 <erbs> once fees are released, you remove those "ephemeral" transactions from the transaction log and go on with the chain
3898 2011-05-20 20:43:01 <erbs> (ephemeral tx is a submission of your own proof)
3899 2011-05-20 20:43:17 <mtrlt> i'd like a way to limit connections that the client makes.
3900 2011-05-20 20:43:31 <cuddlefish> mtrlt: -connect
3901 2011-05-20 20:43:31 <XX01XX> probably could just have a SHR message
3902 2011-05-20 20:43:33 <mtrlt> limit the amount of connections, that is
3903 2011-05-20 20:44:08 aps_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3904 2011-05-20 20:44:26 <mtrlt> cuddlefish: thx that'll help for now
3905 2011-05-20 20:44:39 <mtrlt> now i only have to know a good node.
3906 2011-05-20 20:45:00 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui: Stefan Thomas master * rea5b4bd / (6 files in 4 dirs): Added settings dialog. (+6 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/jJNK10
3907 2011-05-20 20:45:25 <mtrlt> hm found the list :P
3908 2011-05-20 20:45:39 <erbs> bigtime miners would produce a shitton of traffic because theyre like 10,000 times the median user - but it wouldn't be stored forever (only for one block) and theres actually no way around it - since we already assumed everyone has to audit everyone else's shares in a single pool scenario
3909 2011-05-20 20:48:20 <XX01XX> erbs... have them submit the highest difficulty block they've been able to produce on a fixed interval rather than submiting fixed difficulty blocks as discovered.
3910 2011-05-20 20:48:23 BurningToad1 has joined
3911 2011-05-20 20:48:32 <vegard> I'm not able to compile bitcoin from git on latest debian (stable, I think). first error is this: ui.h:27: error: default argument for âconst wxString& captionâ has type âconst char [8] maybe wrong version of libwx?
3912 2011-05-20 20:48:39 <XX01XX> Then megaminers aren't spewing traffic and still get their fair shares.
3913 2011-05-20 20:49:27 <XX01XX> Can the structure of an empty block be predicted in advance?
3914 2011-05-20 20:49:28 <erbs> yeah that makes sense XX01XX.. statistically they dont care if they emit one difficult share an hour or less difficulty every second
3915 2011-05-20 20:49:45 <erbs> and they dont way to pay the micro-tx fees accrued from spam
3916 2011-05-20 20:49:46 <neoeinstein> erbs, I still have not heard a convincing argument why the core protocol should support this.
3917 2011-05-20 20:50:07 WakiMiko_ has joined
3918 2011-05-20 20:50:24 <XX01XX> neoeinstein... to change the economic model so mining isn't incentivised to the point of wasting so much resources.
3919 2011-05-20 20:50:49 <vegard> XX01XX: depends on what you mean, but if I understand you correctly, the answer is no. because the next block includes the previous block's hash, and assuming the strength of SHA-256, it's as difficult as cracking it without any extra information
3920 2011-05-20 20:50:52 <erbs> neoeinstein: pooling is good, but without support in-protocol, theres no way to enforce fair payouts
3921 2011-05-20 20:51:09 <XX01XX> vegard... yeah, that's what I figured, but wasn't sure.
3922 2011-05-20 20:52:32 <erbs> if pooling isn't fair, less ppl will join pools, and total hash power is lower
3923 2011-05-20 20:52:46 <neoeinstein> erbs, This is true, but I don't know that the core protocol is the place to "enforce" pool rules. What about pools that want to use different rules? What happens if someone comes up with a better idea how to pool and distribute proceeds?
3924 2011-05-20 20:52:55 <XX01XX> If you remove the payout from block discovery, there is no point in malicious branching of the blockchain... no incentive to gain 50% computing power.
3925 2011-05-20 20:53:19 <bd_> There's still a point to malicious branching - you can double-spend coins like that
3926 2011-05-20 20:53:21 <neoeinstein> I think that is a problem for pool operators to build trusted pool systems more than it is a problem for the bitcoin protocol to enforce on pool operators.
3927 2011-05-20 20:53:37 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3928 2011-05-20 20:53:48 <bd_> and, I really don't think the core protocol needs to care what pool operators are doing
3929 2011-05-20 20:53:57 <bd_> mining will become less valuable over time
3930 2011-05-20 20:54:11 <erbs> neoeinstein: theres an ideal poolisng scheme - gauranteed payout for proof of work. that would be what the protocol supports. alternate scehems arent really relevant
3931 2011-05-20 20:54:24 <XX01XX> bd... only if people are using both branches.... most malicious branching scenarios have the malicious branch isloated from the legitimate network.
3932 2011-05-20 20:55:00 <XX01XX> Wiat, NM
3933 2011-05-20 20:55:08 <XX01XX> I see how you can do it.
3934 2011-05-20 20:56:19 <XX01XX> the problem is that there's not really any incentive for user to mine... and if the only people you've got are miners and speculators, then what's the point?
3935 2011-05-20 20:56:41 <B0g4r7> I'm making some goods now that I'm selling for BTC.
3936 2011-05-20 20:56:47 <bd_> well, you can't say one is 'malicious' and one isn't - the problem is if you can force everyone to switch to a new branch, the content of which is (initially) under your control
3937 2011-05-20 20:56:59 <bd_> then you can exclude one transaction, and include a different transaction which spends the same coins
3938 2011-05-20 20:57:08 <XX01XX> bd... yeah, thanks
3939 2011-05-20 20:57:11 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * r7cd6e65 / test/blockchain.js : Capture events during test runs. - http://bit.ly/k98U9m
3940 2011-05-20 20:57:11 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: Stefan Thomas master * rc6521a4 / lib/node.js : Added getblocks stub. - http://bit.ly/jWsihL
3941 2011-05-20 20:57:16 <erbs> if nodes have memory, they can reject chains that reverse existing tx. if enough nodes follow this heuristic, they are the majority, and have more hashpower than the forkers
3942 2011-05-20 20:57:29 <bd_> And, there will always be _some_ incentive to mine, in the form of txn fees
3943 2011-05-20 20:57:35 <bd_> which could grow larger over time
3944 2011-05-20 20:57:53 <XX01XX> Actually the TXN in the orphan chain would get incorporated.
3945 2011-05-20 20:57:58 <bd_> erbs: you can't distinguish between the old and new chains that easily. Both of them reverse txns from the other.
3946 2011-05-20 20:58:02 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * r769814f / .gitignore : Ignore NPM-installed modules in working directory. - http://bit.ly/mwzqv5
3947 2011-05-20 20:58:02 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * r977e5b6 / docs/samples/upstart : Added example upstart script. - http://bit.ly/llfEMW
3948 2011-05-20 20:58:03 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-exit: Stefan Thomas master * rd5930f9 / docs/samples/monit : Added example monit configuration. - http://bit.ly/mGLHVO
3949 2011-05-20 20:58:10 <XX01XX> So you WOULD need the people you were using to use your malicious chain to validate the double spend
3950 2011-05-20 20:58:20 <XX01XX> s/using/duping
3951 2011-05-20 20:58:24 <bd_> erbs: So if you use that heuristic, some nodes will switch to chain A, some switch to chain B, and each believes the other is a malicious chain
3952 2011-05-20 20:58:47 <bd_> XX01XX: Er, yes, the TXN from the orphan chain will be available, but it'll be rejected, because the coins have now been spent by a different txn
3953 2011-05-20 20:59:13 <erbs> bd_: if enough nodes have a reasonable memory of the past chain, they will form the majority and will become the longest chain
3954 2011-05-20 20:59:28 <bd_> erbs: The point is that the attack requires the attacking chain to be longer already.
3955 2011-05-20 20:59:30 <erbs> they will agree with thesmselves
3956 2011-05-20 20:59:30 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3957 2011-05-20 20:59:38 <erbs> bd_: yes temporarily
3958 2011-05-20 20:59:43 <bd_> So if you add your heuristic on top of that, you end up with a permanent network split
3959 2011-05-20 21:00:01 <bd_> Bitcoin just relies on the computational infeasibility of producing such a chain in the first place to keep things secure
3960 2011-05-20 21:00:04 <erbs> nah, you end up with most of the nodes ignoring the malicious chain
3961 2011-05-20 21:00:17 <erbs> and eventually becoming the longest chain again despite a temporary fork
3962 2011-05-20 21:00:28 <XX01XX> Actually you'd just TXN it to yourself in the malicious chain... and then spend it on the legit chain.... and then bring the malicious chain back online and TADA, you get your BTC back.
3963 2011-05-20 21:00:40 <bd_> erbs: Okay, but consider the innocuous scenario - by sheer random chance, two nodes on the other side of the network produce a new block at the same time. Each block version has a slightly different set of txns.
3964 2011-05-20 21:00:45 <bd_> At this point the network splits.
3965 2011-05-20 21:01:11 <bd_> Each node sticks with the version it saw first, because switching versions would reverse some txns
3966 2011-05-20 21:02:02 <erbs> they pick the right chain in that case, since they each have the same length at first
3967 2011-05-20 21:02:09 <erbs> the same way its handled now
3968 2011-05-20 21:02:20 <bd_> erbs: I don't understand how this scenario is different from the malicious one.
3969 2011-05-20 21:02:42 <bd_> The malicious one is assumed to have the same or higher total difficulty than the other. Or any other metric which would be requires.
3970 2011-05-20 21:02:45 <bd_> required*
3971 2011-05-20 21:02:53 <bd_> So they'll pick the malicious chain, right?
3972 2011-05-20 21:03:04 <erbs> a malicious miner has to perform 2 blocks in the time it takes the rest of the network to do 1
3973 2011-05-20 21:03:12 <erbs> in order to reverse a tx with one confirmation
3974 2011-05-20 21:03:26 <XX01XX> If you started awarding coins on the basis of SHR messages rather than BLK messages, though, the SHR messages could ALSO become outstanding messages to be incorporated...
3975 2011-05-20 21:03:26 <erbs> a tx with no confirmation cant be reversed..
3976 2011-05-20 21:03:29 <erbs> it doesn't exist
3977 2011-05-20 21:03:38 <bd_> erbs: I see. So you're just saying you have to make a longer chain than the existing one to win.
3978 2011-05-20 21:03:53 <XX01XX> So someone might be able to generate more coins than the economic model would prefer... but it wouldn't screw up the flow of money.
3979 2011-05-20 21:03:59 tabsa has joined
3980 2011-05-20 21:04:11 <erbs> the other nodes would detect the longer chain and reject it because they have some memory (previous block removed a transaction that was already confirmed)
3981 2011-05-20 21:04:27 <erbs> enough nodes with that heuristic would form a majority....
3982 2011-05-20 21:04:43 <XX01XX> erbs... that just means you have persistent branching... that's no good.
3983 2011-05-20 21:04:47 <bd_> erbs: And now we're back to square one. If we reject longer/more difficult chains if they remove transactions, then the symmetric case (BOTH blocks have unique txns) will never resolve
3984 2011-05-20 21:04:49 <XX01XX> You fracture the network.
3985 2011-05-20 21:05:05 vikarti has joined
3986 2011-05-20 21:05:22 <erbs> you can only reject a chain that's longer than the one you have now...
3987 2011-05-20 21:05:40 <XX01XX> erbs... it's good for the malicious case, but fractures the network in the case of legitimate branching.
3988 2011-05-20 21:05:42 <erbs> in the case where 2 blocks are created at the same time they are both the same length chain, so they didn't reverse any tx's
3989 2011-05-20 21:06:03 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Laurent Bachelier * rafc76d530302 gentoo/net-p2p/bitcoin/Manifest: net-p2p/bitcoin: Regenerate Manifest for new init.d http://tinyurl.com/3v86f7w
3990 2011-05-20 21:06:06 <erbs> XX01XX, but the branch isn't really legitimate if it accidentally reverses a confirmed tx
3991 2011-05-20 21:06:16 <erbs> its accidentally malicious
3992 2011-05-20 21:06:24 <bd_> erbs: Let's say we do have a legitimate case where multiple blocks are generated, and each block tries to reverse at least one txn from another block at the same depth
3993 2011-05-20 21:06:42 <bd_> How does this ever converge to a single block chain? Leaving aside whether it's malicious or not.
3994 2011-05-20 21:06:57 <bd_> erbs: Something can't be accidentally malicious. 'malicious' implies intent
3995 2011-05-20 21:06:59 <erbs> bd_: can you give me an example with blocks A,B,C,D etc
3996 2011-05-20 21:07:25 <bd_> Okay, block A: TXN X. Block B, parent A: TXN Y. Block C, parent A: TXN Z.
3997 2011-05-20 21:07:28 <erbs> it accidentally produces the same result as a malicious block...
3998 2011-05-20 21:07:39 tauri has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3999 2011-05-20 21:07:42 <erbs> so your chain is ABC
4000 2011-05-20 21:07:44 <bd_> block B and C are introduced at different nodes distant from each other network-wise, and spread out
4001 2011-05-20 21:07:51 <bd_> No, it's A->(B, C)
4002 2011-05-20 21:07:52 <bd_> a fork
4003 2011-05-20 21:08:01 <bd_> now, what happens is some node, say N
4004 2011-05-20 21:08:03 <erbs> ok, you have 2 chains of the same length.
4005 2011-05-20 21:08:05 <bd_> N first sees block B
4006 2011-05-20 21:08:12 <bd_> It accepts block B; it now has TXN X, Y
4007 2011-05-20 21:08:14 <gmaxwell> 13:34 < erbs> if shares are at a reasonable difficulty (chances of 1 per
4008 2011-05-20 21:08:15 <bd_> it then sees block C
4009 2011-05-20 21:08:23 <BlueMatt> wtf is the 4x rule?
4010 2011-05-20 21:08:23 <bd_> it rejects block C, because it would reverse TXN Y
4011 2011-05-20 21:08:23 <gmaxwell> you've just killed the benefit of pooling.
4012 2011-05-20 21:08:43 <bd_> Meanwhile, node M sees block C. It accepts block C. It then sees block B. It rejects block B, because it reverses TXN Z
4013 2011-05-20 21:08:51 <gmaxwell> erbs: because if shares are high diff they have high variance.
4014 2011-05-20 21:09:23 <bd_> At this point the network has diverged. Based on the "never accept a block that reverses a transaction" rule, the only way for the network to converge is for a new block, block D to be introduced, with a parent of either block B or C, which incorporates both TXNs Y and Z
4015 2011-05-20 21:09:27 <bd_> HOWEVER
4016 2011-05-20 21:09:36 <bd_> If a malicious user has been fuzzing the network with conflicting transactions all the time
4017 2011-05-20 21:09:36 <erbs> bd_: oh no... it has to differentiate between chains of the same length using the same logic it uses now.. only when the chains differ in length should it be checking reversals.
4018 2011-05-20 21:09:41 <bd_> and Y and Z are incompatible
4019 2011-05-20 21:09:44 <bd_> then bam
4020 2011-05-20 21:09:44 <jrmithdobbs> hoorah
4021 2011-05-20 21:09:53 <jrmithdobbs> looks like running the ac 24/7 finally killed it
4022 2011-05-20 21:09:59 <jrmithdobbs> mapbe they'll actually replace the compressor this time
4023 2011-05-20 21:10:01 <erbs> how does it differentiate between 2 chains with the same length now?
4024 2011-05-20 21:10:03 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4025 2011-05-20 21:10:04 <jrmithdobbs> s/mapbe/maybe/
4026 2011-05-20 21:10:04 <bd_> erbs: So the malicious user can win by just making sure not to introduce a too long chain?
4027 2011-05-20 21:10:07 <bd_> erbs: It uses total difficulty
4028 2011-05-20 21:10:21 <erbs> ok, so keep using that for same-length chains
4029 2011-05-20 21:10:21 <bd_> put simply, the one with the lower sha1 wins
4030 2011-05-20 21:10:37 <bd_> erbs: Okay. So how is this different from the current system then?
4031 2011-05-20 21:10:56 <bd_> The attacker will never introduce a longer chain if he doesn't need to. So the remaining case is a shorter chain
4032 2011-05-20 21:11:03 <bd_> However a shorter chain will be rejected by the existing model
4033 2011-05-20 21:11:12 <bd_> So where does this 'reject txn reversals' rule come in?
4034 2011-05-20 21:11:29 <erbs> a malicious attacker would do this: chain=A,B,C,D evil guy wants to reverse a transaction in D. so he creates A,B,C,D2,E and assumes everyone will imediately accept his longer chain.
4035 2011-05-20 21:12:05 <erbs> he has to crank out 2 blocks starting from C before the network does a single block
4036 2011-05-20 21:12:09 <bd_> erbs: No, he creates A,B,C,D2 where D2 has higher difficulty (this is easier than creating A,B,C,D2,E with D2 having lower but still acceptable difficulty)
4037 2011-05-20 21:12:25 <bd_> he then gets the network to accept D2
4038 2011-05-20 21:12:46 <bd_> and now your new heuristic never gets a chance to work
4039 2011-05-20 21:13:42 <erbs> well thats just like creating A,B,C,D2 before D is every made in the first place
4040 2011-05-20 21:13:44 <vegard> so what DOES currently happen in bd's scenario? (two distinct chains, same length, each missing a txn from the other)
4041 2011-05-20 21:13:53 <bd_> vegard: One of them wins.
4042 2011-05-20 21:14:03 <bd_> Any txns lost get resubmitted as new
4043 2011-05-20 21:14:11 <bd_> If they conflict, they're rejected
4044 2011-05-20 21:14:20 <vegard> how is it detected?
4045 2011-05-20 21:14:21 <bd_> This is, of course, a very rare event
4046 2011-05-20 21:14:36 <vegard> well, bitcoin mining is based on rare events, so we know they happen ;)
4047 2011-05-20 21:14:42 <bd_> vegard: Your node sees a block which is apparently valid, but a sibling of an existing known block
4048 2011-05-20 21:15:02 <bd_> it then evaluates which block chain has higher total difficulty, and if it's different from the current chain, it switches the accepted chain
4049 2011-05-20 21:15:15 davux has left ()
4050 2011-05-20 21:15:31 <bd_> in the process, any txns belonging to the previous chain are locally resubmitted
4051 2011-05-20 21:15:31 <erbs> bd_: in the case of same length-chains, instead of using relative difficulty you can use a quorum agreement protocol (which ensures a majority will decide which chain to use without favoring anyone in particular)
4052 2011-05-20 21:16:03 <erbs> they have to be similar in difficulty tho still
4053 2011-05-20 21:16:04 <bd_> erbs: What protocol do you suggest, and how do you suggest it be done without allowing it to be gamed, and why is this better? :)
4054 2011-05-20 21:16:08 <gmaxwell> ...
4055 2011-05-20 21:16:11 * gmaxwell cries
4056 2011-05-20 21:16:22 <bd_> This is already a form of agreement protocol, I point out
4057 2011-05-20 21:16:25 <bd_> just not a quorum protocol
4058 2011-05-20 21:16:26 <gmaxwell> the whole point of bitcoin is that other quorum agreement protocols are not secure.
4059 2011-05-20 21:16:37 <XX01XX> erbs... you could have miners respond to a BLK message with a SHR message containing their shortest block.... the SHR and BLK messages would have to have similar TXNs for the SHR to count.
4060 2011-05-20 21:16:45 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin's quorum agreement is predicated on the difficulty.
4061 2011-05-20 21:16:47 <erbs> yeah that makes sense XX01XX
4062 2011-05-20 21:17:05 <bd_> and what are these SHR messages now?
4063 2011-05-20 21:17:11 <erbs> each block's difficulty should be known beforehand
4064 2011-05-20 21:17:16 <XX01XX> bd... previous conversation
4065 2011-05-20 21:17:18 <erbs> to prevent one-upping each other with slightly more difficult blocks
4066 2011-05-20 21:17:25 <gmaxwell> erbs: the reason that classic agreement protocols don't work is because the badguy spins up 100,000 clone nodes and then whatever he wants is the majority.
4067 2011-05-20 21:17:47 <erbs> gmaxwell: any p2p is subverted is >50% are baddies
4068 2011-05-20 21:17:50 <bd_> erbs: the thing is, the chance of one-upping intentionally is fairly low
4069 2011-05-20 21:17:55 <molecular> ;;seen MagicalTux
4070 2011-05-20 21:17:55 <gribble> MagicalTux was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 10 hours, 26 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <MagicalTux> directhex, ?
4071 2011-05-20 21:18:09 <gmaxwell> erbs: but I can spin up 100,000 clone nodes on my _laptop_
4072 2011-05-20 21:18:10 <erbs> bd_: what happens if 2 blocks with the same difficulty appear?
4073 2011-05-20 21:18:17 <bd_> yes, you can keep on generating based on a previous parent. But as soon as someone puts in a child node, the difficulty increases much much more than any incremental increase of difficulty
4074 2011-05-20 21:18:24 <bd_> erbs: that would be a SHA256 collision :)
4075 2011-05-20 21:18:26 <erbs> gmaxwell: but why would anyone talk to your peers alone?
4076 2011-05-20 21:18:27 <bd_> Very VERY rare
4077 2011-05-20 21:18:29 <gmaxwell> erbs: bitcoin fixes the problem by making the attacker have a seriour hardware investment in order to do the required hashcash.
4078 2011-05-20 21:18:38 <bd_> and would break the protocol
4079 2011-05-20 21:18:52 <bd_> technically it's a SHA256^2 collision I guess
4080 2011-05-20 21:18:58 <erbs> if your peers are a random selection of nodes in the network, they wont all be talking to your laptop
4081 2011-05-20 21:19:08 <gmaxwell> erbs: you can connect to anyone you want.
4082 2011-05-20 21:19:19 <gmaxwell> my laptop can connect to oooldles of proxies.
4083 2011-05-20 21:19:48 <XX01XX> Presumably we're all working on the same problem, yes? You just keep your best-hash-to-date on hand for a SHR message... if you find a hash meeting the protocol difficulty target you make a BLK announcement as usual (no payout). When you hear a BLK announcement, you announce your SHR.... and then start over one the NEW block (with new outsanding TXNs)
4084 2011-05-20 21:19:51 discHead has quit (Quit: discHead)
4085 2011-05-20 21:19:51 <bd_> gmaxwell: You could also fire up a bunch of EC2 nodes. Depending on the value of the txn to reverse...
4086 2011-05-20 21:19:54 <gmaxwell> erbs: have you read the original bitcoin paper?
4087 2011-05-20 21:20:32 <gmaxwell> bd_: if you have a high value txn which you can't tolerate reversal on you should be waiting until it's burried or insuring your transaction some other way.
4088 2011-05-20 21:20:51 <gmaxwell> ohoh you mean to run the sybil attack, yes.
4089 2011-05-20 21:20:52 <bd_> gmaxwell: my point is, if you're the attacker, you can reverse a high value txn to pay for all the ec2 nodes you needed to win quorum :)
4090 2011-05-20 21:20:58 dietnews has joined
4091 2011-05-20 21:21:03 <gmaxwell> bd_: indeed.
4092 2011-05-20 21:21:28 <C4colo> would it make sense if you were a big retailer, say the size of amazon or paypal, to have many nodes in various areas of the internet and wait until all 20 or 200 notes show the tx?
4093 2011-05-20 21:21:34 <[Tycho]> mtGox is broken again ?
4094 2011-05-20 21:21:40 <[Tycho]> Says "Another trade is still in progress, please retry in a few seconds" all the time.
4095 2011-05-20 21:21:55 <gmaxwell> erbs: the bitcoin method for attack resistant quorum-timestamping is the fundimental innovation. It wouldn't be made better by adding a crappy old system which is not attack resistant.
4096 2011-05-20 21:21:55 <bd_> C4colo: No, all that matters is if it's in the blocks
4097 2011-05-20 21:21:59 <cuddlefish> [Tycho]: Hey
4098 2011-05-20 21:22:07 <C4colo> I mean to speed things up
4099 2011-05-20 21:22:10 <bd_> You can introduce the txn itself if you want, doesn't help if there's a conflicting txn out there as well that makes it into the block
4100 2011-05-20 21:22:16 <cuddlefish> [Tycho]: consider implementing http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9137.0 on DeepBit?
4101 2011-05-20 21:22:17 <XX01XX> C4colo... if actual confirmation becomes a problem due to miners having stupid TXN inclusion policies, yes.
4102 2011-05-20 21:22:28 <C4colo> either wait for the blocks or if all of your hosts on various networks connected to different peers had the tx verified
4103 2011-05-20 21:22:55 <bd_> C4colo: $bigplayer could also run their own miner, simply to ensure txns of interest to them get approved if other miners are too stringent
4104 2011-05-20 21:22:59 <C4colo> I was thinking if you had a btc client on your cell phone and laptop that since they are on different networks it would be a soft confirm
4105 2011-05-20 21:23:07 <erbs> with >50% of the hash power you can one-up any block that's created... unless you make it so that the next difficulty range is known exactly in advance... tie-breaking using a quorum protocol is much better than tie-breaking based on difficulty (because you increase the cost of attack)
4106 2011-05-20 21:23:27 <erbs> not only does the attacker need >50% compute power, he now needs >50% of the actual network
4107 2011-05-20 21:23:27 <bd_> erbs: the difficulty range is always known in advance
4108 2011-05-20 21:23:36 <XX01XX> C4colo... sure, you could poll nodes to gather verifications.... it's still not the same as confirmation, though.
4109 2011-05-20 21:23:37 <bd_> it's a range of SHA256 hashes from 0 to TARGET
4110 2011-05-20 21:23:40 <erbs> yes, assume all blocks in that range have "equal" difficulty and tie-break based on a vote
4111 2011-05-20 21:23:58 <bd_> erbs: ... please read the bitcoin paper.
4112 2011-05-20 21:24:11 <bd_> The whole point is that kind of tie-breaking is a) not necessary and b) actively harmful
4113 2011-05-20 21:24:15 <erbs> it doesn't address this
4114 2011-05-20 21:24:19 <erbs> wrong
4115 2011-05-20 21:24:19 <bd_> Yes. Yes it does.
4116 2011-05-20 21:24:31 <erbs> its *obviously* necessary when theres a malicious miner
4117 2011-05-20 21:24:55 <bd_> erbs: No, the whole point is bitcoin breaks if any one entity controls >50% of the computing power, so let's make sure that can't happen
4118 2011-05-20 21:25:00 <gmaxwell> erbs: why are you fixated on quorum protocols. It's utterly trivial to spin up basically unbounded numbers of classic nodes.
4119 2011-05-20 21:25:02 <therap1st> bd_: does ec3 rent ati nodes? in case not it would take several thousands instances to get the block in reasonable time
4120 2011-05-20 21:25:22 <erbs> gmaxwell: no its not at all trivial to become >50% of the network's topology
4121 2011-05-20 21:25:22 <bd_> therap1st: we're talking about breaking the non-hashcash-based quorum protocol erbs wants us to use :)
4122 2011-05-20 21:25:23 <gmaxwell> therap1st: he's talking about non-hashpower based quorum.
4123 2011-05-20 21:25:31 <therap1st> ah
4124 2011-05-20 21:25:34 <therap1st> fuck quorum
4125 2011-05-20 21:25:35 <therap1st> :)
4126 2011-05-20 21:25:38 <erbs> umm not at all
4127 2011-05-20 21:25:44 <erbs> it requires hashpower + quoroms
4128 2011-05-20 21:25:48 <bd_> erbs: sybil attacks are easy. FAR easier than getting 51% of the computing power
4129 2011-05-20 21:25:52 <erbs> its much stronger than just relying on whoever has the biggest cpu
4130 2011-05-20 21:26:00 <bd_> If you can get 51% of the computing power, why shouldn't you have 51% of the IP addresses too?
4131 2011-05-20 21:26:00 <C4colo> so maybe it would be good enough to sell a $10-20 item on craigslist but I don't want to wait 20-30 min for confirm
4132 2011-05-20 21:26:08 <C4colo> but if I was selling a car I would want a block or two past that tx
4133 2011-05-20 21:26:19 <therap1st> erbs: how do you "count" the nodes?
4134 2011-05-20 21:26:19 <gmaxwell> erbs: I can personally out IP address bitcoin.
4135 2011-05-20 21:26:23 <bd_> remember, 51% of the computing power in bitcoin is already some ridiculously huge cluster
4136 2011-05-20 21:26:24 <gmaxwell> Serveral times over, in fact.
4137 2011-05-20 21:26:24 <erbs> bd_: lol getting 51% of the TOPOLOGY?? is extremely hard. you'd need to have nodes in every network cluster
4138 2011-05-20 21:26:34 <bd_> erbs: what the hell is a network cluster?
4139 2011-05-20 21:26:39 lulzplzkthx has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4140 2011-05-20 21:26:45 <bd_> bitcoin doesn't do any sort of clustering
4141 2011-05-20 21:26:47 <jlewis> oh its erbs trolling again
4142 2011-05-20 21:26:49 <erbs> you pick peers based on a distributed hash table
4143 2011-05-20 21:26:56 <bd_> even if it did, why can't I just choose what cluster to join?
4144 2011-05-20 21:26:57 <erbs> not by simply randomly picking IPs from a list
4145 2011-05-20 21:27:01 lulzplzkthx has joined
4146 2011-05-20 21:27:11 <gmaxwell> erbs: a quite modest botnet would trivally do this.
4147 2011-05-20 21:27:16 <erbs> it couldnt possibly
4148 2011-05-20 21:27:20 <XX01XX> C4colo... no, I agree it could be useful to operate nodes across the network can gather verifications as a sort of "preconfirmed" thing...
4149 2011-05-20 21:27:36 <therap1st> erbs: i can get you freenet hash collisions quite easily
4150 2011-05-20 21:27:37 <bd_> XX01XX: Don't gather txns. Inject txns :)
4151 2011-05-20 21:27:38 <erbs> how would a botnet ensure it has an IP in new jersey (which is where my distributed hash table directs me to select a peer)
4152 2011-05-20 21:27:40 <therap1st> erbs: with proxies.
4153 2011-05-20 21:27:47 TheKid is now known as Garrett
4154 2011-05-20 21:27:49 <erbs> not just new jersey but a particular router in new jersey
4155 2011-05-20 21:27:52 <XX01XX> bd_... different converssation.
4156 2011-05-20 21:27:58 Garrett is now known as GarrettB
4157 2011-05-20 21:28:06 <erbs> you are selecting peers based on the entire IP network
4158 2011-05-20 21:28:07 <bd_> erbs: DHTs don't work like that. What happens if there _is_ no bitcoin peer in that subnet?
4159 2011-05-20 21:28:25 <erbs> bd_: you go to the next one obviously until you get a peer
4160 2011-05-20 21:28:27 <bd_> Usually DHTs take a hash of the IP address and route to a bucket based on that.
4161 2011-05-20 21:28:39 <therap1st> bd_: dont bother, clearly misunderstanding how peer-ids are used for dht routing lookups
4162 2011-05-20 21:28:39 <gmaxwell> erbs: you can easily get a fairly modest botnet with more ip divesity than bitcoin itself.
4163 2011-05-20 21:28:41 <bd_> So why can't I just try proxies until I hit th right bucket?
4164 2011-05-20 21:28:48 <erbs> you are taking a random sample of the entire internet - not simply the nodes using bitcoin
4165 2011-05-20 21:28:58 <XX01XX> Is transaction verification conducted including the txns in the block being hashed?
4166 2011-05-20 21:29:11 <therap1st> erbs: so, peer-ids have reputation?
4167 2011-05-20 21:29:18 <bd_> erbs: Since you're excluding any subnets with no bitcoin client, you are not taking a random sample of the entire internet - only the nodes running bitcoin :)
4168 2011-05-20 21:29:29 <therap1st> erbs: or how do you prevent cloning them/hash colliding?
4169 2011-05-20 21:30:03 <therap1st> taking over topology of dhts is actually simple, ask mediasentry guys
4170 2011-05-20 21:30:10 <therap1st> they had some code leaked for that too
4171 2011-05-20 21:30:26 <erbs> bd_: you are selecting subnets that have >0 bitcoin users. as long as you find one honest peer in your path then you can detect quorom stuffing
4172 2011-05-20 21:30:55 <bd_> erbs: how does this help you if someone has a diverse botnet (easy to hire) with peers in lots of subnets?
4173 2011-05-20 21:31:07 <erbs> you just need to find one honest peer (which statistically is inevitable)
4174 2011-05-20 21:31:07 <therap1st> erbs: if client finds honest peer, sybil attack always fails.
4175 2011-05-20 21:31:18 <gmaxwell> erbs: how does having one honest peer help anything?
4176 2011-05-20 21:31:22 <therap1st> erbs: no matter if its qorom or blockchain?
4177 2011-05-20 21:31:33 <bd_> erbs: How can you tell the difference between one honest peer and nine malicious peers vs one malicious peer and nine honest peers?
4178 2011-05-20 21:31:33 <justmoon> erbs: yeah, how does an honest peer help you?
4179 2011-05-20 21:31:54 <erbs> because you can identify which bots are colluding. do you know about multi-stage quorom voting
4180 2011-05-20 21:32:06 <comboy> damn, diablominer went crazy again, process using 200% CPU, <defunct>, -9 won't help, any guru can give me some hint how to kill that bastard?
4181 2011-05-20 21:32:18 <erbs> you keep taking votes until you get a certin confidence level that the vote is fair
4182 2011-05-20 21:32:25 <JFK911> comboy: init 0
4183 2011-05-20 21:32:27 <erbs> it may never converge, so you never transact
4184 2011-05-20 21:32:33 <bd_> erbs: Quorum voting, fundamentally, lets the faction with the largest number of votes win. That's the _point_.
4185 2011-05-20 21:32:39 <erbs> oh no not at all bd_
4186 2011-05-20 21:32:43 <erbs> that is not how it works
4187 2011-05-20 21:32:43 <gmaxwell> erbs: you have a screwed up definition of fair fundimentally.
4188 2011-05-20 21:32:55 <comboy> JFK911: I'd love to avoid restart
4189 2011-05-20 21:32:59 <JFK911> oh
4190 2011-05-20 21:33:03 <JFK911> good luck
4191 2011-05-20 21:33:13 <erbs> its not "majority rule" - there is a statistical process that ensures you are dealing with a fair vote (that each node is flipping a coin)
4192 2011-05-20 21:33:38 <erbs> gmaxwell: *fundamentally
4193 2011-05-20 21:33:41 <bd_> erbs: so... the attacker has a 50% chance of succeeding even without a sybil attack, since all nodes are flipping a coin?
4194 2011-05-20 21:33:45 <comboy> JFK911: really no chance? I never found any but maybe there is some brilliant hint that I'm missing, I pledge 5BTC for this
4195 2011-05-20 21:34:04 <JFK911> kill -15?
4196 2011-05-20 21:34:13 <JFK911> whats his parent? java?
4197 2011-05-20 21:34:50 <justmoon> comboy: try ptree: http://research.engineering.wustl.edu/~allen/kill-defunct-process.html
4198 2011-05-20 21:35:03 <comboy> parrent is just sh
4199 2011-05-20 21:35:07 <JFK911> oh
4200 2011-05-20 21:35:09 <comboy> |-screen-+-zsh---sh---DiabloMiner-Lin---java---2*[{java}]
4201 2011-05-20 21:35:17 <erbs> bd_: not if there are some added heuristics like comparing timestamps etc.. or looking at proof from honest nodes
4202 2011-05-20 21:35:24 <JFK911> you killed his children?
4203 2011-05-20 21:35:29 <bd_> erbs: So this isn't a fair vote then - each node _isn't_ flipping a coin.
4204 2011-05-20 21:35:39 <erbs> but ultimately you can just combine all the tx from the "competing blocks" and make them provisional until the next block combines the union of them all
4205 2011-05-20 21:35:42 <bd_> And you can't look at proof from honest nodes, because you don't know which notes are honest
4206 2011-05-20 21:35:45 <comboy> JFK911: kill -15 won't help, I also killed associated X server
4207 2011-05-20 21:35:47 <erbs> bd_: you should read up on the quorom voting protocols
4208 2011-05-20 21:35:55 <cuddlefish> comboy: -9?
4209 2011-05-20 21:35:58 <bd_> erbs: You can't do that, because the txns might conflict, so no block can ever take their union
4210 2011-05-20 21:36:00 <JFK911> rebooting is a pain
4211 2011-05-20 21:36:01 BlueMatt[mobile] has joined
4212 2011-05-20 21:36:01 maikmerten has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4213 2011-05-20 21:36:04 <bd_> erbs: I'm waiting for a citation :)
4214 2011-05-20 21:36:07 <comboy> cuddlefish: -9 does not work
4215 2011-05-20 21:36:16 <comboy> JFK911: hell it is
4216 2011-05-20 21:36:28 <JFK911> but its the only sure way i know...
4217 2011-05-20 21:36:30 <JFK911> again, good luck
4218 2011-05-20 21:36:40 <comboy> damn there are ways to reload kernel, there must be something
4219 2011-05-20 21:36:49 <gmaxwell> erbs: incidentally, do you have an identity outside of #bitcoin-dev ?
4220 2011-05-20 21:36:59 <erbs> bd_: if tx conflict, you don't confirm either one
4221 2011-05-20 21:37:01 <comboy> I raise up to 10BTC, for killing one process, anyone?
4222 2011-05-20 21:37:10 <erbs> bd_: actually they cant conflict
4223 2011-05-20 21:37:17 <erbs> because then a person is doublespending
4224 2011-05-20 21:37:37 <bd_> erbs: This is, um, the point - the two blocks that are conflicting contain mutually exclusive transactions. That is the essence of the doublespend attack.
4225 2011-05-20 21:37:46 <bd_> So the network needs to decide which block chain to keep
4226 2011-05-20 21:37:58 <erbs> were talking about the "tx reveral" attack -not a double spend
4227 2011-05-20 21:38:04 <bd_> They are one and the same
4228 2011-05-20 21:38:24 <bd_> You can't reverse a transaction without double-spending - the transaction can become unconfirmed, but not forgotten
4229 2011-05-20 21:38:31 <gmaxwell> There is no tx reversal without doublespend. An unspent tx will just end up in a later block if it gets orphaned.
4230 2011-05-20 21:38:45 <BlueMatt[mobile]> comboy: and killall -9 java doesn't work?
4231 2011-05-20 21:38:56 <comboy> BlueMatt[mobile]: nope
4232 2011-05-20 21:39:09 <erbs> umm no.. reversing a tx is not the same as double spending
4233 2011-05-20 21:39:12 <JFK911> Alt+SysRq+...
4234 2011-05-20 21:39:13 <JFK911> which is it..
4235 2011-05-20 21:39:18 <vegard> k? :-P
4236 2011-05-20 21:39:20 <JFK911> granted it kills all procs :)
4237 2011-05-20 21:39:22 <erbs> reversing is removing it from the block chain. double spending is entirely different
4238 2011-05-20 21:39:24 <BlueMatt[mobile]> yea resatrt
4239 2011-05-20 21:39:28 <comboy> JFK911: yeah ;)
4240 2011-05-20 21:39:46 <BlueMatt[mobile]> restart or reisub
4241 2011-05-20 21:39:51 <justmoon> comboy: what is the process' parent? (use ptree to find out) if it's init, you're probably out of luck
4242 2011-05-20 21:39:56 <justmoon> otherwise, kill the parent
4243 2011-05-20 21:39:56 <bd_> erbs: You can, if you have enough CPU power, remove a txn from the block chain. This attack does not help you, because all miners retain the lost transaction and will incorporate it into future blocks. They will also reject a conflicting transaction.
4244 2011-05-20 21:39:58 <gmaxwell> erbs: all the non-evil nodes will continually reinsert any tx which is not doublespent.
4245 2011-05-20 21:40:14 ahbritto_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
4246 2011-05-20 21:40:21 <bd_> You have to remove it and _add a conflicting one at the same time_ in order to benefit from such an attack
4247 2011-05-20 21:40:36 <erbs> the bad guy will just keep removing it. so half the time the coins can never be spent
4248 2011-05-20 21:40:41 <comboy> justmoon: above what I've pasted it's init
4249 2011-05-20 21:40:55 <justmoon> comboy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/356722/killing-a-defunct-process-on-unix-system
4250 2011-05-20 21:41:04 <BlueMatt[mobile]> comboy: you're out of luck man
4251 2011-05-20 21:41:08 <comboy> BlueMatt[mobile]: I actually wonder if this whatever key it is from reisub would work if -9 does not
4252 2011-05-20 21:41:08 <justmoon> according to that you're out of luck
4253 2011-05-20 21:41:11 <bd_> erbs: They can still be spent - you can submit txns that spend the coins produced in the removed txn, they'll go into future blocks together
4254 2011-05-20 21:41:20 <bd_> They just go down to 0 confirmations
4255 2011-05-20 21:41:23 <bd_> HOWEVER
4256 2011-05-20 21:41:30 <bd_> This requires 51% of the networks computational power
4257 2011-05-20 21:41:34 <comboy> justmoon: been there, anything special?
4258 2011-05-20 21:41:37 <erbs> 0 confirmations = no tx
4259 2011-05-20 21:41:39 <bd_> Bitcoin, by design, requires 51% of the network to be honest
4260 2011-05-20 21:42:00 <gmaxwell> bd_: network hash power, not quite the same.
4261 2011-05-20 21:42:09 <bd_> gmaxwell: Okay, hash power, fine :)
4262 2011-05-20 21:42:11 <vegard> comboy: are you using FUSE, sshfs, ...?
4263 2011-05-20 21:42:11 <comboy> justmoon: sorry I type too fast ;) but SO lies and there was no 10btc bounty ;)
4264 2011-05-20 21:42:12 <justmoon> comboy: no, just the fact that you can't kill init without restarting
4265 2011-05-20 21:42:14 <gmaxwell> (just pedantry)
4266 2011-05-20 21:42:25 <erbs> if you combine hash chain with a quorom database that performs double-spend detection, you get the best of both worlds
4267 2011-05-20 21:42:41 <comboy> vegard: I do, but it's not used by diablo
4268 2011-05-20 21:42:47 <gmaxwell> erbs: ...
4269 2011-05-20 21:42:51 <BlueMatt[mobile]> comboy: e==term all proce, I==kill -9 so I suppose will go till b==reboot
4270 2011-05-20 21:42:52 <erbs> because you can never get a false positive when probing a quorom database (they have to provide proof of the double spend)
4271 2011-05-20 21:42:55 <bd_> erbs: Except you don't, because the quorum database needs to defend against sybil attacks, and the _whole point of bitcoin_ is to be a quorum protocol that defends against sybil attacks
4272 2011-05-20 21:43:01 <erbs> you do
4273 2011-05-20 21:43:03 <erbs> clearly
4274 2011-05-20 21:43:12 <gmaxwell> no if you do anything but difficulty based you open youself up to sybil attacks on the quorom builders.
4275 2011-05-20 21:43:14 <erbs> bd_: no sybil attacks doesn't help
4276 2011-05-20 21:43:25 <comboy> BlueMatt[mobile]: poor me
4277 2011-05-20 21:43:28 <erbs> how can a "sybil attack" provide proof that a double spend occured?
4278 2011-05-20 21:43:37 <erbs> it can't - you cannot get a false positive
4279 2011-05-20 21:43:43 <bd_> erbs: Oh, we don't want proof that a double spend occured. We want a false negative.
4280 2011-05-20 21:43:44 <vegard> comboy: do you have /proc/<pid>/stacktrace or backtrace?
4281 2011-05-20 21:43:55 <bd_> "Double spend? What double spend? I saw nothing. >.>"
4282 2011-05-20 21:44:03 <vegard> comboy: you can also try strace -p <pid> on the java process to see which syscall it's hanging in (maybe)
4283 2011-05-20 21:44:15 <bd_> "Those bitcoins always went to Mallory's sister, Eve. Bob? Never heard of him."
4284 2011-05-20 21:44:18 <erbs> bd_: so what? as soon as you hit at least one honest node that remembers the proof you detect the double-spend
4285 2011-05-20 21:44:23 <erbs> falsenegative doesn't help you
4286 2011-05-20 21:44:26 ezl has joined
4287 2011-05-20 21:44:27 <bd_> erbs: also, what proof are we talking about here?
4288 2011-05-20 21:44:36 <comboy> vegard: I have /proc/pid/stack
4289 2011-05-20 21:44:42 <vegard> comboy: you may have to try several pids if the java process has several threads (which it probably does)
4290 2011-05-20 21:44:44 <erbs> proof of a double spend - have you seen these bitcoins before?
4291 2011-05-20 21:44:45 <bd_> erbs: Even if you know a double spend occured, that doesn't give you enough information to decide which txn wins.
4292 2011-05-20 21:44:56 <gmaxwell> erbs: You're burning a lot of time here (and not even providing useful citations). Do you have an identity outside of #bitcoin-dev or should I just assume that you're a sock sent here to burn developer cycles?
4293 2011-05-20 21:44:59 <erbs> you have to reject anything that's double-spent
4294 2011-05-20 21:45:07 <comboy> vegard: strace gives Operation not permitted even from root
4295 2011-05-20 21:45:20 <erbs> gmaxwell: keep trolling bro
4296 2011-05-20 21:45:22 <bd_> erbs: So if a double-spend occurs, the bitcoins double-spend are simply destroyed retroactively? The spend fails, and the double-spend _also_ fails?
4297 2011-05-20 21:45:23 <vegard> comboy: great, cat stack as root
4298 2011-05-20 21:45:34 <comboy> vegard: http://pastie.org/1933695 and this is /proc../stack
4299 2011-05-20 21:45:46 <justmoon> comboy: I wonder if kexec would fix it since it loads a new kernel, so it should create a new init process - but I'm not an expert :D
4300 2011-05-20 21:45:48 <erbs> bd_: yes, they both are invalidated
4301 2011-05-20 21:46:06 <bd_> erbs: Okay. Now consider this: I send Bob some bitcoins. I then wait a while, then introduce a double-spend transaction.
4302 2011-05-20 21:46:20 <bd_> The coins are instantly invalidated. Also, bob's coins are invalidated. And any transactions he based on those. Etc etc.
4303 2011-05-20 21:46:26 <comboy> justmoon: I have completely no idea how kexec actually works, but I'm curious too
4304 2011-05-20 21:46:39 <vegard> kexec would totally kill your running system
4305 2011-05-20 21:46:39 <bd_> I can destroy potentially hundreds of transactions retroactively
4306 2011-05-20 21:46:45 <bd_> And I'm totally anonymous while I do it, too!
4307 2011-05-20 21:46:58 <bd_> All I have to do is manufacture two txns which use the same coins, and present it as proof of a double-spend
4308 2011-05-20 21:47:28 <erbs> bd_: the quorom decides if you invalidate both or just one based on a heuristic. if enough blocks have gone by, you can safely keep the old one to prevent downstream invalidations
4309 2011-05-20 21:47:58 <erbs> if both happen simultaneously - then yes, the best thing is to destroy every tx that stemmed from that
4310 2011-05-20 21:48:01 <gmaxwell> erbs: I don't think it's an unreasonable request. You've managed to burn an hour or so of my time, and I haven't even gotten a lousy citation out of it. As far as I can tell you're a highly advanced infinite argument bot.
4311 2011-05-20 21:48:06 <bd_> erbs: I fail to see how this is any better than the existing bitcoin heuristic, which does essentially EXACTLY THE SAME THING
4312 2011-05-20 21:48:25 <diki> could someone explain more about double spending?
4313 2011-05-20 21:48:36 <erbs> gmaxwell: stop trolling bro. i never asked you to join my conversation. blame yourself if you feel like youre wasting your time
4314 2011-05-20 21:48:48 <diki> i dont understand it
4315 2011-05-20 21:48:55 <erbs> gmaxwell is trolling himself now
4316 2011-05-20 21:48:55 * gmaxwell welcomes erbs to /ignore and urges others to do the same
4317 2011-05-20 21:48:55 * ArtForz blames erbs anyways
4318 2011-05-20 21:49:01 <erbs> haha!
4319 2011-05-20 21:49:04 <justmoon> diki: what do you want to know?
4320 2011-05-20 21:49:04 <bd_> diki: If an attacker has more hash power than 50% of the network, they could construct a new, alternate-history block chain that replaces some txns with transfers to different addresses, effectively double-spending coins.
4321 2011-05-20 21:49:05 <jrmithdobbs> so if a 20A circuit is safe to load at ~16A constant, what's safe for a 100A (still 120V) feed?
4322 2011-05-20 21:49:27 <jrmithdobbs> also: fuck residential power this shit is crap
4323 2011-05-20 21:49:34 <erbs> gmaxwell is begging for my identity "outside of irc" then complains he'ws wasting his time
4324 2011-05-20 21:49:36 <erbs> nice troll ro
4325 2011-05-20 21:49:38 <erbs> ^b
4326 2011-05-20 21:49:41 <diki> how can he replace it?
4327 2011-05-20 21:49:43 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: 80A
4328 2011-05-20 21:50:03 dietnews has left ()
4329 2011-05-20 21:50:06 <diki> and who made up this 50% number
4330 2011-05-20 21:50:11 <ArtForz> continous in la-la land (err... US) is always 80% of peak
4331 2011-05-20 21:50:18 <bd_> diki: simple majority
4332 2011-05-20 21:50:19 <justmoon> diki: if he control 50% of the network hashing power he can create a longer than the current block chain that contains a different set of txw
4333 2011-05-20 21:50:22 <justmoon> txs*
4334 2011-05-20 21:51:34 Niedar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4335 2011-05-20 21:51:37 <oneman> hi
4336 2011-05-20 21:51:47 <BlueMatt[mobile]> hello
4337 2011-05-20 21:52:05 neoeinstein has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4338 2011-05-20 21:52:11 Niedar has joined
4339 2011-05-20 21:52:16 <oneman> does anyone want to sponsor secret project with some btc or buy into it
4340 2011-05-20 21:52:22 neoeinstein has joined
4341 2011-05-20 21:52:23 <diki> but if i am correct, the attacker will be able to do it only once
4342 2011-05-20 21:52:30 <justmoon> oneman: without knowing what it is?!?!
4343 2011-05-20 21:52:30 <diki> once in the pool's life tim
4344 2011-05-20 21:52:38 <erbs> the way you defeat sybil in a quorum voting protocol is by issuing challenges to your peers - they don't know which challenge is a "Test" and which is real - so you simply detect which ones are colluding with each other based on their agreement
4345 2011-05-20 21:52:50 <bd_> diki: They can do it as many times as they want, as long as they continue to have 51+% of the total hashing power
4346 2011-05-20 21:52:58 <diki> but they wont
4347 2011-05-20 21:52:59 <oneman> message me and I will tell you what the secret project but you must swear to secrecy for atleast a few weeks
4348 2011-05-20 21:53:05 ahbritto_ has joined
4349 2011-05-20 21:53:08 <BlueMatt[mobile]> screw that invest in my project instead all you hav to do is pay me
4350 2011-05-20 21:53:10 <diki> when people figure this out= they stop mining for that pool
4351 2011-05-20 21:53:12 <oneman> even if you don't want to invest or sponsor
4352 2011-05-20 21:53:19 IncitatusOnWater has joined
4353 2011-05-20 21:53:21 <diki> and those 50% turn to 0%
4354 2011-05-20 21:53:31 <bd_> oneman: Why the hell should I agree to a NDA without any consideration or a reputation to back that?
4355 2011-05-20 21:53:38 <gmaxwell> diki: you're assuming the attacker is a pool, but thats not a good assumption.
4356 2011-05-20 21:53:40 <erbs> if you detect a cluster of peers always (or in a high level of agreement) you've just detected sybil
4357 2011-05-20 21:53:43 <oneman> its just a good faith NDA
4358 2011-05-20 21:53:47 <bd_> erbs: What challenges would be useful there? Recall my symmetric case - a honest peer could legitimately back EITHER block chain.
4359 2011-05-20 21:54:14 <gmaxwell> besides, we know how to keep pools from attacking now, once someone writes a little software.
4360 2011-05-20 21:54:26 <erbs> bd_: a challenge is an encrypted statement where the receiver doesn't know exactly what hes voting on
4361 2011-05-20 21:54:29 <oneman> I know i sound like a scammer, but im actually just a coder, so message me and ill give you the details
4362 2011-05-20 21:54:40 kisom_dev has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4363 2011-05-20 21:54:50 <erbs> he could be voting on a decision, or he could be voting on a test
4364 2011-05-20 21:54:54 <bd_> erbs: So the nodes can't apply any heuristics, and we're back to the random coin flip case, where the attacker will succeed 50% anyway
4365 2011-05-20 21:55:22 <bd_> oneman: Why should I agree to a NDA, when I receive nothing in return, and you have no reputation to back it?
4366 2011-05-20 21:55:33 tasha3 has joined
4367 2011-05-20 21:55:35 <erbs> they still have heuristics - because it just takes one honest peer to prove the heuristic is matched
4368 2011-05-20 21:56:00 <erbs> if honest nodes believe 10-confirmations is enough to lock-in a tx, then they just provide proof of that and you ignore the sybils
4369 2011-05-20 21:56:02 <bd_> erbs: The honest peer can't tell what it's voting on. Therefore it can't apply any heuristics to decide its vote. It just votes randomly, like everyone else.
4370 2011-05-20 21:56:07 lulzplzkthx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4371 2011-05-20 21:56:30 <bd_> erbs: anyway, do you have any citations for this magical quorum voting protocol you keep talking about?
4372 2011-05-20 21:56:33 <oneman> what do you mean I have no reputation
4373 2011-05-20 21:56:40 <bd_> because if not I'm going to just start beliving you're pulling it out of your ass
4374 2011-05-20 21:56:46 <oneman> I am reputable
4375 2011-05-20 21:56:49 <bd_> oneman: Well, _I_ don't know you.
4376 2011-05-20 21:56:55 <oneman> github.com/oneman
4377 2011-05-20 21:57:00 <bd_> and as far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters. >.>
4378 2011-05-20 21:57:00 <oneman> youtube.com/rawdod
4379 2011-05-20 21:57:04 <oneman> thats me
4380 2011-05-20 21:57:14 <BlueMatt[mobile]> ;;getrating oneman
4381 2011-05-20 21:57:14 <gribble> Error: This user has not yet been rated.
4382 2011-05-20 21:57:19 <erbs> bd_: an honest peer just has to show you that a previous tx occured more than X blocks ago
4383 2011-05-20 21:57:28 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: I don't know bd_ either, but oneman is an actual developer, who is using codec software I've written in some of this stuff, and I've tested his applications.
4384 2011-05-20 21:57:30 <erbs> at that point you are free to either shutdown or ignore the syils
4385 2011-05-20 21:57:46 <oneman> yeah thanks
4386 2011-05-20 21:57:50 lulzplzkthx has joined
4387 2011-05-20 21:57:53 <bd_> gmaxwell: Oh. Very well then.
4388 2011-05-20 21:58:03 <erbs> is gmaxwell whining still?
4389 2011-05-20 21:58:04 <erbs> lol
4390 2011-05-20 21:58:15 <erbs> someone get a bucket for his irc tears
4391 2011-05-20 21:58:23 <bd_> erbs: I reiterate my request for a citation, as I can't see any possible way to both have the honest peers answer a question ("Has a previous tx occured more than X blocks ago?") while at the same time not disclosing the question
4392 2011-05-20 21:58:47 <erbs> bd_: because youre wilfully not reading what i told you already
4393 2011-05-20 21:59:05 <erbs> you are confusing 2 different aspects of the quorum
4394 2011-05-20 21:59:22 <oneman> this is unrelate to codecs and related to bitcoin tho, however my interest in writing bitcoin software is waning unless I can find some people to work with or invest in etc, and I'm coming to the place where uhm bitcoin developers would be ;p
4395 2011-05-20 21:59:23 <erbs> in step 1 you search for proof of a double spend
4396 2011-05-20 21:59:45 <erbs> any honest peer can furnish proof and protect you from accepting a double-spend
4397 2011-05-20 21:59:48 <bd_> proof of a double spend, where needed, is readily available
4398 2011-05-20 21:59:49 gsathya has quit (Quit: gsathya)
4399 2011-05-20 21:59:56 <bd_> This is the case in the current bitcoin network
4400 2011-05-20 22:00:12 <bd_> You're presented with two blocks containing mutually exclusive transactions. Therefore, there is a double spend.
4401 2011-05-20 22:00:22 <bd_> You don't need to ask anyone for proof - you have it already.
4402 2011-05-20 22:00:22 <erbs> the same applies to tx reversal
4403 2011-05-20 22:01:16 <bd_> anyway. erbs: I can't really spend any more time arguing over this; I still think you have the threat model confused. I'd appreciate a link to more info on the quorum protocol you're attempting to describe, and would also recommend that you read the bitcoin paper again
4404 2011-05-20 22:01:22 <erbs> remember - you need to take the union of competing blocks at the same length - and then deal with conflicts by asking your peers what they know - an honest peer will say - hey! he's doing a double-spend - and you reject the new chain
4405 2011-05-20 22:02:08 <erbs> bd_: read up on quorom voting.. its a rich literature with decades of research
4406 2011-05-20 22:02:10 <diki> Any suggestions on how to detect when a block has been found with pushpool?
4407 2011-05-20 22:02:26 <erbs> its not discussed in satoshis paper
4408 2011-05-20 22:02:39 <erbs> distributed quorom databases etc
4409 2011-05-20 22:03:31 <bd_> erbs: specific citations would be appreciated. there are a lot of quorum voting protocols out there, so if you could link to the _Specific_ one you're using that would be very helpful
4410 2011-05-20 22:04:16 <erbs> that part of the validation doesn't use voting tho
4411 2011-05-20 22:04:40 <erbs> its a distributed quorom database where false negatives are harmless
4412 2011-05-20 22:05:45 <justmoon> erbs: is there a working example of it - i.e. a p2p network that uses it for security?
4413 2011-05-20 22:06:07 GarrettB is now known as TheKid
4414 2011-05-20 22:06:20 <bd_> erbs: Please provide a citation of whatever database you're talking about, because it sounds interesting but I've never heard of the thing before. And apparently IRC is a terrible medium for communicating such thigs.
4415 2011-05-20 22:07:02 <erbs> you collect and remember every transaction - and invalidate those where double spend occurs in the same block-level.
4416 2011-05-20 22:07:14 <bd_> citation <-
4417 2011-05-20 22:08:34 <erbs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorum_%28distributed_computing%29#Quorum-based_techniques_in_distributed_database_systems
4418 2011-05-20 22:09:22 <bd_> That's really non-specific. I was hoping for a specific paper describing the application you're talking about.
4419 2011-05-20 22:09:41 <ArtForz> erbhs: thats really nonspecific
4420 2011-05-20 22:10:04 <erbs> i think i just boiled it down to the simplest description possible
4421 2011-05-20 22:10:45 pnicholson has quit (Quit: pnicholson)
4422 2011-05-20 22:11:08 <ArtForz> no you didnt, you did some vague handwaving
4423 2011-05-20 22:11:09 <erbs> you cant reverse a tx because you take the union of all longest chains
4424 2011-05-20 22:11:51 <erbs> and you cant double spend because any honest peer can give you proof of the double spend occuring at the same block level (so you invalidate all descendants) - unless the first spend was X blocks ago, so that takes precedence
4425 2011-05-20 22:12:25 <ArtForz> all longest chains? how do you know you have *all* ?
4426 2011-05-20 22:12:44 hashem has joined
4427 2011-05-20 22:12:55 <hashem> hello
4428 2011-05-20 22:13:01 <hashem> i am new here
4429 2011-05-20 22:13:19 <erbs> later when you query the network - at least one honest peer will have seen the tx earlier
4430 2011-05-20 22:13:22 <hashem> i am mining but how to get money cant understand help please
4431 2011-05-20 22:13:45 <erbs> if its at the same block level, honest dudes quickly invalidate the conflict.. if its an older block level, you take the senior tx
4432 2011-05-20 22:14:12 <comboy> hashem, we only mine, we do it for fun not for money, it's like looking for gold after gold rush is over
4433 2011-05-20 22:14:28 <erbs> but the case where a malicious guy one-ups the current chain is impossible - because he can only add to the tx log (or double-spend his own coin with no effect)
4434 2011-05-20 22:14:59 <diki> I've been hitting my head quite hard to figure out how to make it so my pool can display the found blocks...how cam i do thus?
4435 2011-05-20 22:15:04 <diki> *this
4436 2011-05-20 22:15:08 <hashem> so i can make no money at all from this , i am really disappointed now
4437 2011-05-20 22:15:18 <erbs> hashem: join eligius
4438 2011-05-20 22:15:28 ArtForz is now known as ArtForzZz
4439 2011-05-20 22:15:36 <diki> and i just failed at the red sentence...
4440 2011-05-20 22:15:44 ahbritto_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
4441 2011-05-20 22:15:51 <hashem> i am getting a lot of blocks which i dont know what to do next
4442 2011-05-20 22:16:41 <hashem> please anybody tell me whats going on
4443 2011-05-20 22:16:50 <diki> where are you getting blovks?
4444 2011-05-20 22:16:50 <erbs> bd_: so do you honestly believe one-ups are still possible when every honest peer remembers all valid blocks (and does conflict resolution within the same block level)
4445 2011-05-20 22:16:51 <hashem> this is very difficult for me
4446 2011-05-20 22:17:05 <diki> *blocks
4447 2011-05-20 22:17:41 <hashem> i am generating blocks in the program i just downoaded from the site
4448 2011-05-20 22:18:16 <erbs> in this case, the evil guy would need more than 50%.. hed need like 95% of hash power to permanently exclude (by exclude, i mean make it so infrequent as to be useless) new blocks from appearing
4449 2011-05-20 22:18:30 <erbs> problem solved..
4450 2011-05-20 22:19:02 <hashem> oh iam not getting any blocks now
4451 2011-05-20 22:19:04 <diki> hashem, using the Bitcoin program to generate coins is a bad idea
4452 2011-05-20 22:19:08 <hashem> it stopped generating
4453 2011-05-20 22:19:15 <hashem> what happened
4454 2011-05-20 22:19:21 <diki> and your program is updating itself, that is why you are getting blocks
4455 2011-05-20 22:19:22 eao has joined
4456 2011-05-20 22:19:25 <hashem> so how can i be a good idea
4457 2011-05-20 22:19:39 <diki> Use a GPU miner if your card is supported
4458 2011-05-20 22:19:44 <erbs> dont get me wrong, i think bitcoin is the best system as it is.. just saying, the 51% of hashpower issue is not intractable because we don't care about false negatives when querying double-spend
4459 2011-05-20 22:20:04 <hashem> where can i get this gpu miner
4460 2011-05-20 22:20:10 <hashem> i ave a very good computer
4461 2011-05-20 22:20:14 <diki> What is your graphics card?
4462 2011-05-20 22:21:04 <metonymous> hashem: google gpu miner bitcoin
4463 2011-05-20 22:21:18 <metonymous> if ur windows, the "gui bitcoin miner" in google will get u the simples one
4464 2011-05-20 22:21:36 <diki> but if his card is not supported, it wouldnt matter
4465 2011-05-20 22:21:38 <hashem> my graphic card is ati
4466 2011-05-20 22:21:45 <diki> more specifically?
4467 2011-05-20 22:21:57 <hashem> 64 bits
4468 2011-05-20 22:22:12 <mtrlt> what ati
4469 2011-05-20 22:22:12 <diki> that is not specific, and there are no 64 bit GPUs
4470 2011-05-20 22:22:18 <mtrlt> model number please
4471 2011-05-20 22:22:19 <metonymous> aren't tehy 128bit?
4472 2011-05-20 22:22:30 <metonymous> like AMD/ATI 5850, or 6850 or someting
4473 2011-05-20 22:22:31 <diki> The bus can be 64 bit
4474 2011-05-20 22:22:44 <diki> but that would mean it's a slow card
4475 2011-05-20 22:23:06 <hashem> ati mobililty radeon hd 5470
4476 2011-05-20 22:23:10 <diki> ouch...
4477 2011-05-20 22:23:14 <diki> it won't work probably
4478 2011-05-20 22:23:22 <mtrlt> it might but it will be very slow
4479 2011-05-20 22:23:27 <diki> mega slow
4480 2011-05-20 22:23:29 <diki> like 2-3 mhash/s
4481 2011-05-20 22:23:32 St0rmMolest has joined
4482 2011-05-20 22:23:49 <hashem> i thought it was a good computer
4483 2011-05-20 22:23:52 <diki> Usually people saying they have good computers, tend not to.
4484 2011-05-20 22:24:02 <hashem> shit
4485 2011-05-20 22:24:05 <diki> First mistake hashem
4486 2011-05-20 22:24:06 <hashem> sorry
4487 2011-05-20 22:24:14 <diki> No computer is good
4488 2011-05-20 22:24:20 <diki> It get preceded by a better one
4489 2011-05-20 22:24:21 <hashem> yes
4490 2011-05-20 22:24:34 <hashem> so no chance for me in this world
4491 2011-05-20 22:24:36 <mtrlt> the gpu isn't fast
4492 2011-05-20 22:24:37 <diki> *succeeded
4493 2011-05-20 22:24:43 Netsniper has joined
4494 2011-05-20 22:24:44 <mtrlt> and never has been :p
4495 2011-05-20 22:24:56 <diki> a 5470 is for movies
4496 2011-05-20 22:25:02 <hashem> so no money no cry
4497 2011-05-20 22:25:05 <diki> or an office
4498 2011-05-20 22:25:13 <diki> a mobility is probably a laptop
4499 2011-05-20 22:25:18 <mtrlt> yep
4500 2011-05-20 22:25:25 <hashem> come on guys its a laptop
4501 2011-05-20 22:25:31 <hashem> is it a really crap laptop
4502 2011-05-20 22:25:52 <hashem> it cost me alot wouldnt it help if it is core i3 64
4503 2011-05-20 22:25:56 <erbs> bd_- whered yo ugo bro
4504 2011-05-20 22:25:59 kisom_dev has joined
4505 2011-05-20 22:26:07 <erbs> its partytime in quorumvilllle
4506 2011-05-20 22:26:25 <erbs> a quorom database is ez if you skip negative responses...
4507 2011-05-20 22:26:25 <diki> It doesnt help
4508 2011-05-20 22:26:31 <lfm> core i3 aint much better
4509 2011-05-20 22:26:33 <erbs> just wait to find that one honest dude......
4510 2011-05-20 22:26:40 <mtrlt> hashem: laptops are crap in general
4511 2011-05-20 22:26:40 <diki> a corei3 is a low-end CPU even if it does stuff better than an AMD cpu
4512 2011-05-20 22:26:46 trekdanne has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4513 2011-05-20 22:26:54 <diki> it would make even less mhash/s than the gpu
4514 2011-05-20 22:26:56 <mtrlt> hashem: compared to proper computers
4515 2011-05-20 22:27:12 galaxyAbstractor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4516 2011-05-20 22:27:16 <diki> A laptop is usually not used for gaming unless it's an Alienware
4517 2011-05-20 22:27:20 <lfm> even the gpu on the core i3 is not so hot really
4518 2011-05-20 22:27:24 <hashem> so if i get a really good computer i cn then join this money generating world
4519 2011-05-20 22:27:34 <diki> if it's really good, yes
4520 2011-05-20 22:27:36 <mtrlt> hashem: please research before doing anything.
4521 2011-05-20 22:27:44 <diki> but be sure to buy an ATi card
4522 2011-05-20 22:27:51 <diki> not nvidia, or you will fail
4523 2011-05-20 22:28:01 <hashem> i am sorry i just got excited. i am just a doctor not any pc expert
4524 2011-05-20 22:28:03 <lfm> hashem: well any ole desktop with a $100 5770 can get you coins
4525 2011-05-20 22:28:10 <mtrlt> hashem: do calculations whether it is profitable etc
4526 2011-05-20 22:28:21 <hashem> so what do you recommend as a miniimum requirements
4527 2011-05-20 22:28:35 <diki> Mining is like surgery, you might get lucky, you might now
4528 2011-05-20 22:28:42 <diki> *you might not
4529 2011-05-20 22:28:42 <lfm> hachiya: ya Id say minimum is a 57xx
4530 2011-05-20 22:28:46 brunner has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4531 2011-05-20 22:28:52 <diki> The minimum changed a long time ago
4532 2011-05-20 22:28:55 <diki> the min is 5850
4533 2011-05-20 22:29:02 <diki> max-no max, sorry
4534 2011-05-20 22:29:07 <hashem> what are these numbers u r mentioning
4535 2011-05-20 22:29:16 Jere__Jones has joined
4536 2011-05-20 22:29:17 <lfm> ati model numbers
4537 2011-05-20 22:29:17 <mtrlt> hashem: ati gpu model numbers
4538 2011-05-20 22:29:17 <diki> 5850-high-end gpu
4539 2011-05-20 22:29:21 <comboy> hashem: I have an idea for you, drop me some % after success, instead of buying an ATI card, offer online consultation for bitcoins if it's applicable in your field
4540 2011-05-20 22:29:29 <diki> not so high-end now tho
4541 2011-05-20 22:29:31 <mtrlt> hashem: if you don't know even this much, please research for a week or two before buying anything.
4542 2011-05-20 22:29:36 MasterChief has joined
4543 2011-05-20 22:29:41 <hashem> ok thank you
4544 2011-05-20 22:29:48 <hashem> i will quit for now
4545 2011-05-20 22:29:59 <lfm> ciao
4546 2011-05-20 22:30:19 <erbs> remember bro, its impossible to "exclude" a transaction if you take the union of all transactions seen (honest nodes will together know everything)... and when unions cause a conflict at the same block level - you nullify all descendants of the poisonous double-spend.. when the conflict is earlier, you reject the new tx.....
4547 2011-05-20 22:30:38 <erbs> no vote required in that case
4548 2011-05-20 22:30:40 Jere_Jones has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4549 2011-05-20 22:30:42 <diki> <lfm> ciao <- saying that in rizon get's you banned immediately
4550 2011-05-20 22:31:09 <lfm> what rizon?
4551 2011-05-20 22:31:14 sgornick has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4552 2011-05-20 22:31:18 <erbs> honest nodes will never accept any conflicted coin (and evil dudes wont even try to spend them because theres no one who will accept the scam!)
4553 2011-05-20 22:31:25 <hashem> so ati radeon 5850 is good enough
4554 2011-05-20 22:31:27 <diki> lfm it's an irc network
4555 2011-05-20 22:31:35 <mtrlt> hashem: depends on what you want
4556 2011-05-20 22:31:39 <lfm> diki glad im not there
4557 2011-05-20 22:31:39 <diki> the 5850 would do, but soon it wont
4558 2011-05-20 22:31:47 <jrmithdobbs> hashem: not really
4559 2011-05-20 22:31:52 sgornick has joined
4560 2011-05-20 22:31:55 <mtrlt> hashem: read this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
4561 2011-05-20 22:32:01 <lfm> my 5770 still seems to work
4562 2011-05-20 22:32:14 <lfm> got like 150btc last week
4563 2011-05-20 22:32:22 <diki> Hashem, you do realise, that if you want a new card, you must get a desktop PC, right?
4564 2011-05-20 22:32:26 <lfm> that was a good week
4565 2011-05-20 22:32:37 <hashem> oh yes sure
4566 2011-05-20 22:32:42 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4567 2011-05-20 22:32:45 <hashem> ok i ll think about it
4568 2011-05-20 22:32:50 <diki> that would mean, ram, motherboard, gpu, psu
4569 2011-05-20 22:32:59 <hashem> you guys are so cool and know a lot
4570 2011-05-20 22:32:59 <diki> a brand new computer
4571 2011-05-20 22:33:01 <mtrlt> hashem: for example i spent about 3200 eur on mining rigs.
4572 2011-05-20 22:33:03 <hashem> thank you
4573 2011-05-20 22:33:13 <mtrlt> hashem: you can spend however much you have :P
4574 2011-05-20 22:33:15 <erbs> ok i think ive convinced the skeptics :)
4575 2011-05-20 22:33:35 <erbs> this is like a protocol version 3 type thing, so its not really practical in the short term
4576 2011-05-20 22:33:36 <diki> I remember how i was going to be scammed with a GTX 285...glad i sticked with the 5850
4577 2011-05-20 22:33:47 <diki> the 285 is way slower than a 5850
4578 2011-05-20 22:33:55 <hashem> so any other ideas to make money online just by switching my computer on like this one is appreciated guys
4579 2011-05-20 22:34:12 <erbs> let me know as well
4580 2011-05-20 22:34:15 <erbs> if you find anything like that
4581 2011-05-20 22:34:18 <diki> Hashem, unfortunately it's not just switching on the PC, it uses electricity
4582 2011-05-20 22:34:31 <diki> 24/7 mining = lot's of power
4583 2011-05-20 22:34:39 <diki> =high bill
4584 2011-05-20 22:34:39 <mtrlt> hashem: do/make something that people are willing to pay for
4585 2011-05-20 22:34:41 <lfm> hashem ya, do you pay for your own power?
4586 2011-05-20 22:34:54 <hashem> not always
4587 2011-05-20 22:35:25 <lfm> ok if you run a cord from your naigbor, it is more profitable
4588 2011-05-20 22:35:49 <lfm> neighbor
4589 2011-05-20 22:36:05 <lfm> or neighbour for some of you
4590 2011-05-20 22:36:29 <diki> but i am planning on faking my electricity usage
4591 2011-05-20 22:36:39 <diki> just gotta stop the kw/h counter for a bit
4592 2011-05-20 22:36:52 <lfm> diki Oh? use solar power panel?
4593 2011-05-20 22:36:53 ntosme2 has joined
4594 2011-05-20 22:37:02 <erbs> the skeptics have faded away.. i think theyve become enlightened by the obvious :)
4595 2011-05-20 22:37:03 <diki> Where i live, it's not possible lol
4596 2011-05-20 22:37:22 <lfm> erbs what are you on about now?
4597 2011-05-20 22:37:27 <erbs> take the sum of all transactions, not just the most recent chain (conflict resolution as described above)
4598 2011-05-20 22:37:31 guy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
4599 2011-05-20 22:37:59 <lfm> Total value of transactions: 5.67181e+07
4600 2011-05-20 22:38:09 <erbs> lfm - a modified protocol that completely prevents tx reversal
4601 2011-05-20 22:38:13 Cusipzzz has joined
4602 2011-05-20 22:38:39 <lfm> erbs oh, good luck with that then
4603 2011-05-20 22:38:40 <therap1st> erbs: write a spec @ wiki
4604 2011-05-20 22:38:48 <erbs> it lets miners mine and make money, but eliminates the possibility of discrminating against tx's or reversing tx's
4605 2011-05-20 22:38:52 <therap1st> and if its backwards compatible, then all power to you
4606 2011-05-20 22:39:02 <erbs> its not bc..
4607 2011-05-20 22:39:19 <therap1st> huh?
4608 2011-05-20 22:39:20 <tasha3> anyone use namecoins?
4609 2011-05-20 22:39:27 <therap1st> tasha3: theyre worthless
4610 2011-05-20 22:39:37 <therap1st> tasha3: wait for difficulty to drop after hoarders realise that
4611 2011-05-20 22:39:38 <erbs> but lots of good modifications aren't necessary bc.. i expect at some point the community will decide to rollout bitcoin 2.0 with a bundle of bc-breaking changes
4612 2011-05-20 22:39:46 <hashem> so if i have 93677 in the program
4613 2011-05-20 22:40:02 <hashem> is this worth anything or should i just shut it off
4614 2011-05-20 22:40:12 <therap1st> erbs: theres no need to break anything
4615 2011-05-20 22:40:20 <hashem> bearing in mind it is rising very quickly and steadily this number
4616 2011-05-20 22:40:21 <therap1st> just change rules by block number
4617 2011-05-20 22:40:31 <lfm> 93677 of what?
4618 2011-05-20 22:40:41 <hashem> of blocks
4619 2011-05-20 22:40:42 <tasha3> so if they are worthless, send me some to play with
4620 2011-05-20 22:40:44 <erbs> therap1st: oh yeah absolutely.. but i mean old clients would be unable to do new tx properly
4621 2011-05-20 22:40:50 <tasha3> Mxn6eWJvhXti8oUYZD38sbuX3AwEJfxBf4
4622 2011-05-20 22:40:54 <tasha3> ;)
4623 2011-05-20 22:40:55 <lfm> hashem: wait for ;;bc,blocks
4624 2011-05-20 22:41:00 <therap1st> tasha3: not generating. and stop soliciting and generate some
4625 2011-05-20 22:41:01 <lfm> ;;bc,blocks
4626 2011-05-20 22:41:07 <therap1st> tasha3: its well within reach of cpu
4627 2011-05-20 22:41:07 <gribble> 125388
4628 2011-05-20 22:41:14 <tasha3> I'm already generating as we speak
4629 2011-05-20 22:41:18 <lfm> 125388
4630 2011-05-20 22:41:20 Ramen has joined
4631 2011-05-20 22:41:46 <tasha3> duh
4632 2011-05-20 22:42:08 <hashem> i have 100,000 blocks now
4633 2011-05-20 22:42:09 <erbs> tasha.0
4634 2011-05-20 22:42:15 <hashem> is this any good for anyhting
4635 2011-05-20 22:42:15 <erbs> you need more bro
4636 2011-05-20 22:42:45 <lfm> hashem: once you catch up then you can start generating or buy some to spend
4637 2011-05-20 22:42:53 <Ramen> would it be possible to reclaim "lost" coins after like 100 years or something so that the coins doesn't eventually run out?
4638 2011-05-20 22:43:05 <erbs> hashem: dont waste your time mang... theres no money to be maid without lots of GPUs
4639 2011-05-20 22:43:12 <niles> BTC at 5.61!
4640 2011-05-20 22:43:28 <lfm> Ramen: huh? we will still be generating new coins in 100 years
4641 2011-05-20 22:43:38 <tasha3> lost coins are lost are lost are lost.
4642 2011-05-20 22:43:44 <erbs> Ramen: possibly with a protocol change.. just add unspent coins older than X years to the total bitcoins remaining
4643 2011-05-20 22:43:48 <tasha3> no coming back, ever, or the system goes down
4644 2011-05-20 22:43:49 <Ramen> yeah but eventually max out at 21 mil
4645 2011-05-20 22:44:01 <hashem> so after how many blocks can i make atleast one bitcoin to have a feel that i did something
4646 2011-05-20 22:44:04 <diki> Hashem, those blocks are not your blocks
4647 2011-05-20 22:44:08 <lfm> Ramen: and why do you think that is a problem?
4648 2011-05-20 22:44:17 <diki> it's the all the blocks found by all the miners in the world
4649 2011-05-20 22:44:19 <tasha3> there's no way of ever knowing difference between lost coin and horded coin
4650 2011-05-20 22:44:27 <diki> and you are just updating your list
4651 2011-05-20 22:44:31 <Ramen> cause at some point there will be no liquidity
4652 2011-05-20 22:44:36 <lfm> Ramen: its not like you can only spend em once! they circulate
4653 2011-05-20 22:44:38 <diki> you currently have 0 bitcoins
4654 2011-05-20 22:44:43 <niles> what would happen if someone sold 5000 coins now?
4655 2011-05-20 22:44:53 <diki> he would earn money niles
4656 2011-05-20 22:44:57 <erbs> a coin older than x years can be invalidated and returned to the pool of available coins - its a protocol change tho
4657 2011-05-20 22:44:57 <Ramen> right but if one person loses 1k here 1k there.... 21 mil isn't that much
4658 2011-05-20 22:45:12 <lfm> Ramen: its not that much
4659 2011-05-20 22:45:14 <erbs> it wouldnt harm anyone since hoarders can still just "re-spend" their coin to make it fresh again
4660 2011-05-20 22:45:34 <tasha3> respend?
4661 2011-05-20 22:45:37 <tasha3> invalidate?
4662 2011-05-20 22:45:42 <erbs> transfer it to another adress they own
4663 2011-05-20 22:45:43 <Ramen> also how would I move the private key from one computer to another?
4664 2011-05-20 22:45:56 <Ramen> or make a back up of it at least
4665 2011-05-20 22:46:00 <tasha3> then it's not reall invalid
4666 2011-05-20 22:46:02 <lfm> Ramen: dont move keys. move the coins
4667 2011-05-20 22:46:05 <tasha3> it's just temporary in limbo
4668 2011-05-20 22:46:08 <Ramen> right...
4669 2011-05-20 22:46:09 <tasha3> and that's not good
4670 2011-05-20 22:46:13 <Ramen> but what if your computer goes down
4671 2011-05-20 22:46:14 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
4672 2011-05-20 22:46:14 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.1,"low":5.61,"vol":39051,"buy":5.6152,"sell":5.9,"last":5.6123}}
4673 2011-05-20 22:46:16 BlueMatt[mobile] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4674 2011-05-20 22:46:27 <lfm> Ramen: keep backups
4675 2011-05-20 22:46:28 <Ramen> say you get a HD failure
4676 2011-05-20 22:46:30 <Ramen> lol
4677 2011-05-20 22:46:37 <Ramen> i'm asking how you back up though
4678 2011-05-20 22:46:42 <Ramen> just image the whole drive?
4679 2011-05-20 22:46:54 <Ramen> is there some config file you just copy and move ?
4680 2011-05-20 22:47:05 <lfm> wallet.dat
4681 2011-05-20 22:47:19 vsviridov_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4682 2011-05-20 22:47:29 <lfm> but only copy with bitcoin stopped
4683 2011-05-20 22:48:11 <Ramen> where is that at on a windows system?
4684 2011-05-20 22:48:16 <Ramen> under user?
4685 2011-05-20 22:48:22 <lfm> I dont use mswin
4686 2011-05-20 22:48:28 <gjs278> WHAT IF SOME GUY BUYS 20 MILLION COINS AND THEN HIS COMPUTER CRASHES
4687 2011-05-20 22:48:30 <lfm> in configdir
4688 2011-05-20 22:48:50 <lfm> gjs278: that would be terrible for him
4689 2011-05-20 22:49:09 <tasha3> some guy buying 20 million coins would be wise enough to have wallet backups
4690 2011-05-20 22:49:10 <lfm> gjs assuming he has no backups
4691 2011-05-20 22:49:14 <erbs> gjs278: that would be good for the guys who still have bitcoins
4692 2011-05-20 22:49:23 <Ramen> lol
4693 2011-05-20 22:49:23 <diki> gjs278: then he would be the unluckies person on the planet
4694 2011-05-20 22:49:37 <lfm> adnstupidest prolly
4695 2011-05-20 22:49:38 <diki> *unluckiest
4696 2011-05-20 22:49:40 <tasha3> print outs of the wallet in binary, on acid free paper, stored in a safe depositb ox
4697 2011-05-20 22:49:41 <tasha3> box
4698 2011-05-20 22:49:53 <Diablo-D3> [06:42:08] <gjs278> WHAT IF SOME GUY BUYS 20 MILLION COINS AND THEN HIS COMPUTER CRASHES
4699 2011-05-20 22:49:54 <Diablo-D3> nothing.
4700 2011-05-20 22:49:58 <gjs278> the cost of ink would be worth more than the wallet
4701 2011-05-20 22:50:11 <Diablo-D3> 100 some future addresses are in the wallet
4702 2011-05-20 22:50:13 <tasha3> it would have to be expensive ink, that would not fade
4703 2011-05-20 22:50:20 <lfm> tasha3: ya sure, I bet 3 people in the whole world would really do that
4704 2011-05-20 22:50:32 <diki> The only person who can buy all the coins
4705 2011-05-20 22:50:44 <diki> is Bill Gates or Google or Apple Inc
4706 2011-05-20 22:50:49 <tasha3> going back from paper into computer file would be fun
4707 2011-05-20 22:50:52 <diki> cause that is like pocket money for them
4708 2011-05-20 22:50:56 <tasha3> 1000010010101000001111110000
4709 2011-05-20 22:50:58 <tasha3> oops.. missed a 1
4710 2011-05-20 22:51:02 <Namegduf> Buying "all the coins" is kinda silly
4711 2011-05-20 22:51:06 gasteve_ has joined
4712 2011-05-20 22:51:11 <Namegduf> It'd be a curve upwards.
4713 2011-05-20 22:51:19 <anarchyx> gjs278: the other coins price would go up :P
4714 2011-05-20 22:51:22 <Namegduf> The more you buy the more expensive the last few are going to make themselves.
4715 2011-05-20 22:51:28 <gjs278> he would also have to build technology to prevent aging so he can live to 2140
4716 2011-05-20 22:51:33 <gjs278> to get every lsat coin
4717 2011-05-20 22:51:44 <lfm> tasha3: note my wallet.dat is 244449280 bytes, that would be a lot of paper and a large safety deposit box
4718 2011-05-20 22:51:49 <Namegduf> Until eventually he's arguing with me over how many million for my last 0.1 BTC
4719 2011-05-20 22:52:01 <Namegduf> (This is the plan)
4720 2011-05-20 22:52:03 <tasha3> and a team of typists
4721 2011-05-20 22:54:05 <lfm> gjs278: nothing really happens in 2140, just the miners become completely dependant on fees, they would have been getting negligible amounts from coinbase for many years before that
4722 2011-05-20 22:55:03 <gjs278> he needs every last coin though
4723 2011-05-20 22:56:21 <lfm> actuall total is less than 21 million, and some coins have already been lost so he is not gonn get them
4724 2011-05-20 22:56:25 <erbs> greetings
4725 2011-05-20 22:56:42 <erbs> the skeptics have shrunk into the forest
4726 2011-05-20 22:57:32 <lfm> erbs ok then you new currency with new bitcoins like system (except better as you say) will be a great success, congratulations!
4727 2011-05-20 22:57:50 <erbs> im mining straight up gold on my casio 9000
4728 2011-05-20 22:58:06 <lfm> way to go
4729 2011-05-20 22:58:30 <Namegduf> I can't mine without ruining responsiveness.
4730 2011-05-20 22:58:33 <tasha3> rock out with your coin out
4731 2011-05-20 22:58:35 <Namegduf> It's not poor GPU settings
4732 2011-05-20 22:58:40 <Namegduf> It's that my browser is GPU accelerated
4733 2011-05-20 22:58:42 <Namegduf> So...
4734 2011-05-20 22:58:56 <Namegduf> Mining and doing GPU-using stuff at the same time makes the GPU-using stuff angry
4735 2011-05-20 22:59:25 <lfm> Namegduf: did you try fiddling with -w -v etc on miner?
4736 2011-05-20 22:59:37 <Namegduf> lfm: Yeah. -w removed all impact on everything but the browser.
4737 2011-05-20 22:59:39 bill_stickers has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
4738 2011-05-20 22:59:48 <lfm> and -f?
4739 2011-05-20 22:59:49 Enchilada has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4740 2011-05-20 22:59:59 <Namegduf> f didn't seem to do much.
4741 2011-05-20 23:00:06 <Namegduf> Moving it upwards.
4742 2011-05-20 23:00:10 <Namegduf> I've not got it moved down.
4743 2011-05-20 23:00:13 <B0g4r7> I run -f 120 and XBMC is nice and responsive.
4744 2011-05-20 23:00:28 <Namegduf> Could be nVidia not being so good at this, then.
4745 2011-05-20 23:00:33 <Namegduf> I turn it on when I sleep
4746 2011-05-20 23:00:40 <lfm> -f goes from 1 to like 300 right?
4747 2011-05-20 23:00:49 <erbs> gmaxwell dissapeared into the mist like a scared troll
4748 2011-05-20 23:00:57 Enchilada has joined
4749 2011-05-20 23:00:59 <Namegduf> I heard "some multiple or divisor of 60, default 60"
4750 2011-05-20 23:01:06 Enchilada has quit (Client Quit)
4751 2011-05-20 23:01:15 <gjs278> I run f 60 and its fine
4752 2011-05-20 23:01:21 <gjs278> it defaults to 30 on poclbm
4753 2011-05-20 23:01:26 <Namegduf> Ah.
4754 2011-05-20 23:01:39 <gjs278> games I do 240 and am usually ok
4755 2011-05-20 23:01:40 <Namegduf> Maybe I can turn off SLI
4756 2011-05-20 23:01:44 <B0g4r7> I've heard that larger -f values are only necessary on the "primary" GPU, but I run it on all threads.
4757 2011-05-20 23:01:45 <Namegduf> And have it use just card #2
4758 2011-05-20 23:01:46 <Ramen> lol everyone bought all the games from jjgames haha... their exchange rate still at 6.4
4759 2011-05-20 23:01:53 <erbs> oh shit
4760 2011-05-20 23:02:05 <Namegduf> There's none left?
4761 2011-05-20 23:02:06 <erbs> ;;bc,mtgox
4762 2011-05-20 23:02:07 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.1,"low":5.61,"vol":42671,"buy":5.61,"sell":5.62,"last":5.6123}}
4763 2011-05-20 23:02:17 <erbs> wtf bitcoin is down
4764 2011-05-20 23:02:21 <Ramen> every ps3 game is gone
4765 2011-05-20 23:02:32 <Namegduf> Yeah, -otc has been going nuts, it's awesome
4766 2011-05-20 23:02:34 <erbs> looks like early adopters are flooding the market
4767 2011-05-20 23:02:38 <niles> btc will be at 4.00 at 4:45PM PST
4768 2011-05-20 23:02:40 <lfm> ya its hard being a merchant with such voletility
4769 2011-05-20 23:02:44 <Namegduf> I sold at 6.6
4770 2011-05-20 23:02:49 <tasha3> 2nd wave coming in
4771 2011-05-20 23:02:51 <gjs278> I sold yesterday at 6.74 for a bit
4772 2011-05-20 23:02:55 <cuddlefish> #bitcoin-cabal. It's safer here
4773 2011-05-20 23:02:58 <Namegduf> Just to get some USD for taking advantage of offers.
4774 2011-05-20 23:03:01 <erbs> haha cuddlefish
4775 2011-05-20 23:03:09 citiz3n has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4776 2011-05-20 23:03:28 <Namegduf> I bet it'll go back up again after.
4777 2011-05-20 23:03:30 <cuddlefish> ... apropriate
4778 2011-05-20 23:03:35 agricocb has joined
4779 2011-05-20 23:03:42 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4780 2011-05-20 23:03:44 <B0g4r7> Buy fear, sell confidence.
4781 2011-05-20 23:04:00 * Namegduf had no non-bitcoin liquidity, that's bad when there's people who want to sell or buy
4782 2011-05-20 23:04:01 <erbs> what is causing this selloff besides the desire of earl adopters to buy more coke/gold jewelry
4783 2011-05-20 23:04:28 <B0g4r7> Fear perpetuates it.
4784 2011-05-20 23:04:31 <B0g4r7> Panic sell.
4785 2011-05-20 23:04:35 <Namegduf> I dunno
4786 2011-05-20 23:04:40 <Diablo-D3> erbs: its pointless to ask that question
4787 2011-05-20 23:04:43 <Namegduf> -otc is mostly joking. I think.
4788 2011-05-20 23:04:44 <Diablo-D3> its no different than wall street
4789 2011-05-20 23:04:52 <Ramen> yeah shit like this happens in stock markets
4790 2011-05-20 23:04:58 <Diablo-D3> people are annoying little short sighted fuckers who are afraid of losing some fictional profit
4791 2011-05-20 23:05:00 <Namegduf> I think everyone who would buy is just waiting until it stops going down
4792 2011-05-20 23:05:04 <B0g4r7> This market is just far more volatile.
4793 2011-05-20 23:05:06 <Namegduf> I would, anyway
4794 2011-05-20 23:05:08 niles has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4795 2011-05-20 23:05:09 <Ramen> yeah lol
4796 2011-05-20 23:05:13 <B0g4r7> aye
4797 2011-05-20 23:05:16 <Diablo-D3> ZOMG OBAMA STUBBED HIS PINKY TOE, SELL SELL SELL SELL
4798 2011-05-20 23:05:18 <Namegduf> So it'll bounce back alright
4799 2011-05-20 23:05:29 <Diablo-D3> GREED IS GOOD LOLOLOLOLOL
4800 2011-05-20 23:05:29 <B0g4r7> It has much higher to clime yet.
4801 2011-05-20 23:05:30 <Ramen> maybe maybe not lol
4802 2011-05-20 23:05:32 <Ramen> no one knows
4803 2011-05-20 23:05:39 <Diablo-D3> MATH IS HARD, LETS DO COKE!
4804 2011-05-20 23:05:47 <erbs> well the question is really how many bubbles can you get.. it went from like $1 to $9 pretty quickly.. maybe all the suckers have already bought coins and theres no one left
4805 2011-05-20 23:05:47 <Ramen> you mean hashing is hard?
4806 2011-05-20 23:05:55 hashem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4807 2011-05-20 23:06:01 <Namegduf> Hashing is hard, let's day tr-BUY-ade.
4808 2011-05-20 23:06:02 <Diablo-D3> No, I mean logic is outside of the realm for most people
4809 2011-05-20 23:06:13 <tasha3> bad news: coke does not increase your hashing rate
4810 2011-05-20 23:06:21 m00p has joined
4811 2011-05-20 23:06:25 <Namegduf> Yeah I once destroyed a GPU that way.
4812 2011-05-20 23:06:27 <B0g4r7> Though hash may increase your rate of coke intake.
4813 2011-05-20 23:06:28 <C4colo> what about meth?
4814 2011-05-20 23:06:30 <Namegduf> Felt so silly afterwards.
4815 2011-05-20 23:06:32 <Namegduf> Meth works
4816 2011-05-20 23:06:33 <Diablo-D3> tasha3: my 5850 threatened to cut me if I stop feeding it coke
4817 2011-05-20 23:06:40 joewandy_ has joined
4818 2011-05-20 23:06:43 <tasha3> GPU gone bad!
4819 2011-05-20 23:07:00 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4820 2011-05-20 23:07:26 <erbs> gee peee yew
4821 2011-05-20 23:07:41 <Diablo-D3> heh, in other news, my miner is making java's gc go apeshit
4822 2011-05-20 23:08:08 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: Can I tell your miner to just use one GPU?
4823 2011-05-20 23:08:11 <Namegduf> If I turn off SLI?
4824 2011-05-20 23:08:18 Jere__Jones has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4825 2011-05-20 23:08:22 <Diablo-D3> you can do it anyhow
4826 2011-05-20 23:08:26 <Namegduf> Oh, neat. How?
4827 2011-05-20 23:08:26 <Diablo-D3> use -D, starts at 1
4828 2011-05-20 23:08:30 <sneak> hi guys
4829 2011-05-20 23:08:37 Jere_Jones has joined
4830 2011-05-20 23:08:37 <erbs> so i take it #bitcoin-cabal is where the insiders decide how to manipulate the market
4831 2011-05-20 23:09:09 <sneak> over ten thousand nicks in the lfnet bootstrap channel
4832 2011-05-20 23:09:15 <sneak> i remember when it was ~400
4833 2011-05-20 23:09:17 <joewandy_> what is #bitcoin-cabal ?
4834 2011-05-20 23:09:22 <joewandy_> i cannot enter
4835 2011-05-20 23:09:26 citiz3n has joined
4836 2011-05-20 23:09:40 <erbs> yeah its where the cartel decides how much bitcoin to put on the market
4837 2011-05-20 23:09:40 <sneak> lol
4838 2011-05-20 23:09:41 <erbs> like opec
4839 2011-05-20 23:09:49 <erbs> they are responsible for the drop in price
4840 2011-05-20 23:09:56 <joewandy_> wow
4841 2011-05-20 23:09:59 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: Super, seems to totally leave responsiveness unaffected.
4842 2011-05-20 23:10:40 <Ramen> lol I got 0.00110593 BTC weee
4843 2011-05-20 23:11:04 malnilion has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
4844 2011-05-20 23:11:05 <anarchyx> anyone got over 100k coins yet? :P
4845 2011-05-20 23:11:12 <Diablo-D3> Namegduf: thats good right?
4846 2011-05-20 23:11:29 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: Yes, it's letting GPU accelerated stuff work okay
4847 2011-05-20 23:11:35 <Diablo-D3> btw, on nvidia, -w 64 seems to fix desktop response a little
4848 2011-05-20 23:11:36 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: It seems to suck on nVidia
4849 2011-05-20 23:11:55 <Diablo-D3> high -f values are iffy on nvidia though
4850 2011-05-20 23:11:58 <Namegduf> I have -w 128, -w 64 didn't seem much better.
4851 2011-05-20 23:12:00 <Diablo-D3> it seems to really cut into hash rate
4852 2011-05-20 23:12:01 <Namegduf> Not adjusted -f
4853 2011-05-20 23:12:15 <Diablo-D3> -f pretty much wants a multiple or divisor of 60
4854 2011-05-20 23:12:24 <anarchyx> ;;bc,stats
4855 2011-05-20 23:12:24 <Namegduf> I know.
4856 2011-05-20 23:12:26 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125392 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1615 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 5 hours, 23 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 333805.89090765
4857 2011-05-20 23:12:31 <Diablo-D3> some people do -f 1000
4858 2011-05-20 23:12:41 <Namegduf> It didn't seem to help any.
4859 2011-05-20 23:12:51 <Diablo-D3> yeah, nvidia has the worlds worst drivers
4860 2011-05-20 23:12:51 <Namegduf> I was trying to watch a South Park video and it was stuttering horribly.
4861 2011-05-20 23:13:57 <Namegduf> Yeah, forcing it onto GPU #2 made it better.
4862 2011-05-20 23:14:13 gasteve_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4863 2011-05-20 23:14:31 topi`_ has joined
4864 2011-05-20 23:14:43 deaf has joined
4865 2011-05-20 23:15:04 <diki> im also getting a lot of rpc errors on slush pool
4866 2011-05-20 23:15:13 MacRohard has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4867 2011-05-20 23:15:16 mosi has quit (fable!~mos@dongs.dtegaming.com|Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
4868 2011-05-20 23:15:23 wolfspraul has joined
4869 2011-05-20 23:15:28 joewandy_ has left ()
4870 2011-05-20 23:15:38 topi` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4871 2011-05-20 23:16:09 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: What's with "invalid block found" messages?
4872 2011-05-20 23:16:22 <Diablo-D3> the check HW message?
4873 2011-05-20 23:16:28 <Namegduf> Yeah.
4874 2011-05-20 23:16:44 <Diablo-D3> it means your hw is returning bullshit, and it could be overheating and/or retarded
4875 2011-05-20 23:16:52 <Namegduf> Well, it's nVidia.
4876 2011-05-20 23:17:03 <Diablo-D3> yes, and it should stay under 75c for nvidia
4877 2011-05-20 23:17:08 <B0g4r7> heh, I get that sometimes.
4878 2011-05-20 23:17:12 <Diablo-D3> due to very questionable hw design choices
4879 2011-05-20 23:17:24 <erbs> sludh pool is great
4880 2011-05-20 23:17:26 <erbs> or try eligius
4881 2011-05-20 23:17:57 <Namegduf> But then I can't contribute to the Evil Empire. :(
4882 2011-05-20 23:18:38 <erbs> gmaxwell, ArtForzZz, and bd_ are brilliang guys... they know a lot more about bitcoin than me
4883 2011-05-20 23:19:35 dvide has quit ()
4884 2011-05-20 23:21:50 gasteve_ has joined
4885 2011-05-20 23:22:57 Netsniper has joined
4886 2011-05-20 23:23:05 aps has joined
4887 2011-05-20 23:23:56 lumos has joined
4888 2011-05-20 23:24:21 <B0g4r7> I do while (1) { run teh miner; }
4889 2011-05-20 23:24:42 <B0g4r7> For the "check hardware" thing.
4890 2011-05-20 23:25:23 yaoshallnotkill has joined
4891 2011-05-20 23:26:02 <lfm> B0g4r7: should prolly put a sleep in there in case it starts failing hard
4892 2011-05-20 23:26:18 <erbs> mine()mine()mine()
4893 2011-05-20 23:27:20 <erbs> i like chicken
4894 2011-05-20 23:27:38 <lfm> chicken chicken chicken chicken
4895 2011-05-20 23:28:34 <erbs> anyone wanna sell me 2.5btc
4896 2011-05-20 23:28:45 <lfm> sure
4897 2011-05-20 23:28:58 Kiba` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4898 2011-05-20 23:28:59 <erbs> ok ill send you paypal
4899 2011-05-20 23:29:09 <lfm> oh I dont take paypal
4900 2011-05-20 23:29:14 <Ramen> lol
4901 2011-05-20 23:29:26 <erbs> ok i only have PP
4902 2011-05-20 23:29:59 JSharp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4903 2011-05-20 23:30:05 <erbs> hmm no one will sell
4904 2011-05-20 23:30:11 <erbs> so this is what they mean by deflationary currency eh
4905 2011-05-20 23:30:13 <Ramen> I wonder how much money my shitty comp can make hashing.... if I can get .2 a day should be enough to cover my electric bill at least lol
4906 2011-05-20 23:30:35 lumos has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4907 2011-05-20 23:30:38 <DrDeke> think of it this way Ramen, in the winter the hashing can help heat your place!
4908 2011-05-20 23:30:49 <lfm> ramen how many khash/sec?
4909 2011-05-20 23:30:49 <Ramen> LOL it's summer right now
4910 2011-05-20 23:31:02 <erbs> the more miners there are, the less you can make
4911 2011-05-20 23:31:05 <Ramen> and I'm near the equator
4912 2011-05-20 23:31:15 <DrDeke> ahh, lovely
4913 2011-05-20 23:31:19 <DrDeke> gotta move to alaska then
4914 2011-05-20 23:31:20 <Ramen> well... I haven't tried it on my comp at home yet
4915 2011-05-20 23:31:21 <DrDeke> or yellowknife :)
4916 2011-05-20 23:31:31 <Ramen> but i'd guess like maybe 2 LOL
4917 2011-05-20 23:31:31 <lfm> ;;bc,gen 1000
4918 2011-05-20 23:31:32 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.00411989234213 BTC per day and 0.000171662180922 BTC per hour.
4919 2011-05-20 23:31:38 <Ramen> 2 MH/s
4920 2011-05-20 23:31:47 <lfm> ;;bc,gen 2000
4921 2011-05-20 23:31:48 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 2000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.00823978468425 BTC per day and 0.000343324361844 BTC per hour.
4922 2011-05-20 23:31:58 <DrDeke> no ATI card eh
4923 2011-05-20 23:32:15 <Ramen> well fuck
4924 2011-05-20 23:32:24 <Ramen> need more deflation then
4925 2011-05-20 23:32:26 kreal- has quit (Quit: leaving)
4926 2011-05-20 23:32:26 <Ramen> lol
4927 2011-05-20 23:32:30 <SerajewelKS> how do you make a testnet bitcoin instance start an rpc server?
4928 2011-05-20 23:32:32 <lfm> so not even 1 cent/day
4929 2011-05-20 23:32:42 <DrDeke> well, 1 bitcoin cent per day
4930 2011-05-20 23:32:51 <SerajewelKS> i've tried setting rpcuser/rpcpassword/rpcport and none of them convince it to start the rpc service
4931 2011-05-20 23:32:51 <yaoshallnotkill> Did anyofyalll sell at $9?
4932 2011-05-20 23:33:26 <lfm> SerajewelKS: put -server on the command line
4933 2011-05-20 23:33:33 F_M_C has joined
4934 2011-05-20 23:33:44 <Diablo-D3> I sold some at $8 something
4935 2011-05-20 23:33:46 <gjs278> highest I sold was 7.60
4936 2011-05-20 23:33:49 <yaoshallnotkill> nice d3
4937 2011-05-20 23:34:32 <SerajewelKS> lfm: that doesn't make it listen on rpcport either
4938 2011-05-20 23:35:29 <SerajewelKS> lfm: there it goes. i had to specify everything on the command line.
4939 2011-05-20 23:36:04 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r39e51c10ff84 gentoo/net-p2p/pushpool/ (Manifest pushpool-0.4.1.ebuild): net-p2p/pushpool-0.4.1 http://tinyurl.com/4yecz8d
4940 2011-05-20 23:37:35 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4941 2011-05-20 23:37:48 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4942 2011-05-20 23:38:04 skeledrew has joined
4943 2011-05-20 23:39:08 aps has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4944 2011-05-20 23:39:29 needmoney90 has joined
4945 2011-05-20 23:39:46 Ramen1 has joined
4946 2011-05-20 23:39:54 <erbs> sup needmoney90
4947 2011-05-20 23:40:10 Ramen1 has left ()
4948 2011-05-20 23:41:18 <erbs> sell needmoney90 2.5 btc!!
4949 2011-05-20 23:41:25 <erbs> A German insurance company rewarded its best salesmen by organizing an orgy with prostitutes in a Hungarian spa, the company acknowledged yesterday. About 100 top salesmen were invited to the June 2007 orgy, which featured numerous scantily clad hostesses and about 20 prostitutes, Ergo insurance spokesman Alexander Becker said. http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2011/05/20/orgy_wa
4950 2011-05-20 23:41:25 <erbs> s_the_reward_for_sales/?camp=obnetwork
4951 2011-05-20 23:42:24 <needmoney90> Bought. <3
4952 2011-05-20 23:42:29 <needmoney90> Thanks erbs and gjs
4953 2011-05-20 23:42:51 <gjs278> np
4954 2011-05-20 23:43:04 Ramen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4955 2011-05-20 23:43:11 JSharp has joined
4956 2011-05-20 23:43:24 <erbs> good deal bros
4957 2011-05-20 23:46:13 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik personal * r529dbfaa5c2b pushpool-personal/configure.ac: Version 0.4.1. http://tinyurl.com/3zn82wg
4958 2011-05-20 23:46:13 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr personal * rfa6bd0057acb pushpool-personal/Makefile.am: Bugfix: libraries must be in LDADD, not LDFLAGS http://tinyurl.com/3ka9ppa
4959 2011-05-20 23:46:26 <tasha3> what is the lowest transaction amount allowed, that does not have the 0.01 fee ?
4960 2011-05-20 23:47:11 joepie91 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
4961 2011-05-20 23:48:37 <erbs> now i must take a shit
4962 2011-05-20 23:51:20 Vandroiy is now known as ForceDestroyer
4963 2011-05-20 23:51:24 brunner has joined
4964 2011-05-20 23:55:29 <CIA-103> bitcoinjs/node-bitcoin-p2p: booo master * re1167ea / : Merge github.com:booo/node-bitcoin-p2p (+5 more commits...) - http://bit.ly/ikcSun
4965 2011-05-20 23:55:36 aps has joined
4966 2011-05-20 23:56:12 <erbs> bitcoin is awesome bitcoin is the best
4967 2011-05-20 23:56:15 <erbs> bitcoin++++ more bt
4968 2011-05-20 23:56:16 <erbs> c
4969 2011-05-20 23:59:13 joepie91 has joined
4970 2011-05-20 23:59:58 satamusic_ is now known as satamusic