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24 2011-05-21 00:24:55 <gjs278> why the hell has a transaction of mine taken 40 minutes and has received zero confirms so far
25 2011-05-21 00:25:11 <needmoney90> 0.o
26 2011-05-21 00:25:27 <gjs278> http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1598/screenshotsop.png
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29 2011-05-21 00:26:21 <Diablo-D3> maybe we havent had a block since then?
30 2011-05-21 00:26:40 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,lastblock
31 2011-05-21 00:26:41 <gribble> Error: "bc,lastblock" is not a valid command.
32 2011-05-21 00:26:43 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,last
33 2011-05-21 00:26:43 <gribble> Error: "bc,last" is not a valid command.
34 2011-05-21 00:26:46 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,help
35 2011-05-21 00:26:46 <gribble> Alias bc,24hprc, Alias bc,avgprc, Alias bc,bcm, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcex, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,calcd, Alias bc,channels, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,diff, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,estimate, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,gend, Alias bc,googlerate, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,hextarget, Alias bc,interval, Alias bc,lukepool, Alias bc,mtgox, Alias bc,mtgoxask, (1 more message)
36 2011-05-21 00:27:00 <gjs278> next time on dragonball-z: a block is found
37 2011-05-21 00:27:02 sethsethseth_ has joined
38 2011-05-21 00:27:18 * Diablo-D3 crushes his client
39 2011-05-21 00:28:33 <phantomcircuit> THIS
40 2011-05-21 00:28:34 <phantomcircuit> IS
41 2011-05-21 00:28:36 <phantomcircuit> BITCOIN
42 2011-05-21 00:28:52 <needmoney90> Please for the love of god, someone kick phantomcircuit for lols
43 2011-05-21 00:29:09 <yaoshallnotkill> People are now starting to agree with my predictions of a Bitcoin being worth $10,000 "Yes. It's worth at least that." http://bit.ly/kyb0I6
44 2011-05-21 00:29:12 <needmoney90> (note: not because of anything, other than the movie) =D
45 2011-05-21 00:29:24 tabsa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
46 2011-05-21 00:29:39 <yaoshallnotkill> LMFAO!
47 2011-05-21 00:29:58 sabalabas has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
48 2011-05-21 00:30:01 <theymos> gjs278: It's not on BitcoinCharts or in my log. It either failed to broadcast the first time, or it's invalid.
49 2011-05-21 00:30:09 <gjs278> hmm
50 2011-05-21 00:30:18 <gjs278> what happens if its "invalid"
51 2011-05-21 00:30:25 <theymos> It'll never clear.
52 2011-05-21 00:30:30 <needmoney90> ;_; dont scams meee!
53 2011-05-21 00:30:31 <gjs278> how does it become invalid
54 2011-05-21 00:30:38 <needmoney90> orphaned, gjs278
55 2011-05-21 00:30:47 <needmoney90> two people solve a block at the same time
56 2011-05-21 00:30:55 <needmoney90> the network chooses one randomly
57 2011-05-21 00:30:59 <needmoney90> the original gets orphaned
58 2011-05-21 00:31:05 <gjs278> that's dumb
59 2011-05-21 00:31:11 <theymos> He's talking about a transaction, not a block.
60 2011-05-21 00:31:20 * Diablo-D3 realizes where dr mcninja is going with this
61 2011-05-21 00:31:25 <diki> sony hacked again >:]
62 2011-05-21 00:31:26 <Diablo-D3> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
63 2011-05-21 00:31:28 <Diablo-D3> MIND BLOWN
64 2011-05-21 00:31:30 mtrlt has joined
65 2011-05-21 00:31:36 <theymos> gjs278: It should only happen if you did something very odd with your wallet.
66 2011-05-21 00:31:40 <gjs278> I did not
67 2011-05-21 00:31:42 kreal- has joined
68 2011-05-21 00:32:05 <gjs278> I'll force a payment from deepbit
69 2011-05-21 00:32:08 <gjs278> and see if I get that
70 2011-05-21 00:32:42 <tasha3> deepbit... growing bigger
71 2011-05-21 00:32:51 <tasha3> 50% network approaching
72 2011-05-21 00:32:54 <needmoney90> we need to go deeper
73 2011-05-21 00:32:54 <diki> Im so happy someone is finally doing something to sony
74 2011-05-21 00:32:55 <phantomcircuit> actually it's getting smaller
75 2011-05-21 00:33:06 <diki> it's all full of win
76 2011-05-21 00:33:07 <gjs278> theymos how can I tell it to "broadcast" again
77 2011-05-21 00:33:10 <tasha3> or is everything else getting bigger?
78 2011-05-21 00:33:21 <phantomcircuit> gjs278, either the transaction is inherently invalid (ie corrupt) or something went wroong and your wallet should rebroadcast it
79 2011-05-21 00:33:28 <theymos> gjs278: It'll rebroadcast about every 30 minutes automatically. You can't force it.
80 2011-05-21 00:33:28 <gjs278> alright
81 2011-05-21 00:33:42 <needmoney90> theymos: I thought there was a --reload switch that could force a reload
82 2011-05-21 00:33:49 rhett__ has joined
83 2011-05-21 00:33:49 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
84 2011-05-21 00:33:54 <theymos> That doesn't rebroadcast transactions.
85 2011-05-21 00:34:00 <needmoney90> huh
86 2011-05-21 00:34:07 <theymos> Don't restart Bitcoin, since that resets the timer.
87 2011-05-21 00:34:07 <needmoney90> .../me derps
88 2011-05-21 00:34:10 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
89 2011-05-21 00:34:12 <gjs278> alright
90 2011-05-21 00:34:18 <gjs278> I will not restart bitcoind
91 2011-05-21 00:34:21 <needmoney90> yeah, just realized that rebroadcasting transactions would be bad
92 2011-05-21 00:34:34 <gjs278> long poll just occurred
93 2011-05-21 00:34:38 izz3k has joined
94 2011-05-21 00:34:42 <gjs278> wow
95 2011-05-21 00:34:47 <gjs278> got my confirm from deepbit payent
96 2011-05-21 00:34:49 <gjs278> this one still at 0
97 2011-05-21 00:35:19 <needmoney90> ._.
98 2011-05-21 00:35:28 <needmoney90> oh wait, that would make sense
99 2011-05-21 00:35:28 <phantomcircuit> yeah the rebroadcast logic could use some work...
100 2011-05-21 00:35:36 <needmoney90> if deepbit was the one that broadcast the payment
101 2011-05-21 00:35:40 <needmoney90> er, the block. Solved it.
102 2011-05-21 00:35:54 <gjs278> I sent coins yesterday, so I know this should theoretically work
103 2011-05-21 00:35:54 <needmoney90> it can tack whatever it wants onto the block
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105 2011-05-21 00:38:30 <CIA-103> DiabloMiner: Patrick McFarland master * r13b8435 / src/main/java/com/diablominer/DiabloMiner/DiabloMiner.java : Clearn up some code to cut down on String stupidity - http://bit.ly/kmqoWV
106 2011-05-21 00:39:37 glassresistor has joined
107 2011-05-21 00:39:57 <tasha3> is there any open source code for coin fountains?
108 2011-05-21 00:49:13 sacarlson has joined
109 2011-05-21 00:49:16 <yaoshallnotkill> bt;
110 2011-05-21 00:49:18 <yaoshallnotkill> btc;
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114 2011-05-21 00:56:25 <sethsethseth__> can someone help me understand what prevents a massive ddos of all the nodes from shutting down the bitcoin network?
115 2011-05-21 00:56:40 <needmoney90> bitcoin is decentralized
116 2011-05-21 00:56:48 <Namegduf> sethsethseth__: About the same thing that prevents a massive DDoS of all the nodes from shutting down the Internet.
117 2011-05-21 00:56:55 <needmoney90> the only way to kill it would be to DDOS every single miner and potential trader
118 2011-05-21 00:57:11 <needmoney90> forever
119 2011-05-21 00:57:36 <sethsethseth__> how many bitcoin nodes are there?
120 2011-05-21 00:57:46 <Namegduf> It'd be like trying to shut down bittorrent through DDoS attacks
121 2011-05-21 00:58:01 <Namegduf> Except bittorrent has the trackers, bitcoin doesn't.
122 2011-05-21 00:58:21 <yaoshallnotkill> Would anyone be interesting in selling 20K bitcoins at 2.50?
123 2011-05-21 00:58:23 <theymos> Bitcoin does have IRC, which does much the same thing as trackers.
124 2011-05-21 00:58:25 <sethsethseth__> the current scale of bitcoin is very tiny compared to torrent or the internet though isnt it?
125 2011-05-21 00:58:37 kreal- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
126 2011-05-21 00:58:40 <Diablo-D3> Namegduf: are you saying thats good or bad?
127 2011-05-21 00:58:43 <needmoney90> yaoshallnotkill: ...you have that much cash? 0.o
128 2011-05-21 00:58:43 <sethsethseth__> how many nodes are there?
129 2011-05-21 00:58:48 <yaoshallnotkill> sure
130 2011-05-21 00:58:53 <Diablo-D3> because bitcoin ships with its own list of always on nodes
131 2011-05-21 00:58:54 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: Bad for bittorrent, good for bitcoin
132 2011-05-21 00:58:59 <yaoshallnotkill> I will buy 80K for $1
133 2011-05-21 00:59:00 <Diablo-D3> and also peer xchgs
134 2011-05-21 00:59:04 gasteve_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
135 2011-05-21 00:59:07 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: I guess, but you could bootstrap around
136 2011-05-21 00:59:13 <Namegduf> You're kinda right, I guess
137 2011-05-21 00:59:16 <needmoney90> well $1 is below the trendline
138 2011-05-21 00:59:27 <yaoshallnotkill> No chit sherlock
139 2011-05-21 00:59:28 <Diablo-D3> well what Im saying is, you'd have to kill every single node on the list
140 2011-05-21 00:59:31 <Diablo-D3> and some are over tor
141 2011-05-21 00:59:36 <yaoshallnotkill> so is $80K
142 2011-05-21 01:00:06 <sethsethseth__> ahh this says there are 1700 nodes
143 2011-05-21 01:00:09 <MrHako> what wallet should i use if i want it to be local?
144 2011-05-21 01:00:22 <Namegduf> Diablo-D3: Agree
145 2011-05-21 01:01:17 <sethsethseth__> that does not seem like too many nodes to continually ddos
146 2011-05-21 01:01:49 Gui_0 has joined
147 2011-05-21 01:02:17 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r69ae372 / src/makefile.osx : OSX build tweaks (laszlo) - http://bit.ly/l827Nk
148 2011-05-21 01:02:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Jeff Garzik master * r69a27a4 / src/irc.cpp :
149 2011-05-21 01:02:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: irc: #bitcoin is overflowing. split up into 100 randomly-joined channels.
150 2011-05-21 01:02:18 <CIA-103> bitcoin: From laszlo - http://bit.ly/lT5SDY
151 2011-05-21 01:03:08 TheKid is now known as GarrettB
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155 2011-05-21 01:04:45 <SerajewelKS> why would the testnet client issue a connection reset after i send a getwork request?
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161 2011-05-21 01:10:56 sethsethseth__ has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
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165 2011-05-21 01:14:49 falafell has joined
166 2011-05-21 01:14:51 sethsethseth_ has joined
167 2011-05-21 01:15:15 <falafell> is there a way to export/import my bitcoin keys?
168 2011-05-21 01:17:47 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
169 2011-05-21 01:18:49 _Maru_ has joined
170 2011-05-21 01:19:46 <luke-jr> falafell: yes, see forums
171 2011-05-21 01:19:54 eternal1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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175 2011-05-21 01:21:21 <falafell> only found some patch code
176 2011-05-21 01:21:25 <falafell> no actual tools
177 2011-05-21 01:21:31 <SerajewelKS> urg
178 2011-05-21 01:21:36 <SerajewelKS> why can't i mine on testnet
179 2011-05-21 01:21:51 glassresistor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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183 2011-05-21 01:29:50 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,gen 1400
184 2011-05-21 01:29:50 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1400 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.00576784927898 BTC per day and 0.000240327053291 BTC per hour.
185 2011-05-21 01:29:52 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,gen 1400000
186 2011-05-21 01:29:53 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1400000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 5.76784927898 BTC per day and 0.240327053291 BTC per hour.
187 2011-05-21 01:30:32 oneman has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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193 2011-05-21 01:34:02 <eoss> http://i.imgur.com/YrMnm.jpg
194 2011-05-21 01:34:56 oneman has joined
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196 2011-05-21 01:36:03 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
197 2011-05-21 01:36:03 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.1,"low":5.5772,"vol":42236,"buy":5.5902,"sell":5.745,"last":5.7446}}
198 2011-05-21 01:36:30 <JFK911> pumped, now being dumped
199 2011-05-21 01:37:14 deaf has left ()
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201 2011-05-21 01:38:53 pfifo has joined
202 2011-05-21 01:40:04 <Astriks> gjs278; 10,000 bitcoin clients. Is there any place i can check for split channels?
203 2011-05-21 01:40:04 qethree has joined
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205 2011-05-21 01:41:28 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-68-251-190-116.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net|Netsniper
206 2011-05-21 01:41:38 <pfifo> why does this not work, (block 125408) hash("sha256", hash("sha256", pack(Nh64h64NNN, 1, "000000000000139abda7fbcfcd79a2df28c5d489e1a23ad52753e9cd321910ea", "98f7d691ee2609c970a9b7b3321da482b079de28c0d919617fe4d76219620feb", 1305940244, 440711666, 1148618072), true));
207 2011-05-21 01:41:43 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
208 2011-05-21 01:41:45 IncitatusOnWater has joined
209 2011-05-21 01:42:12 eamon has joined
210 2011-05-21 01:42:23 <eamon> Why do people care that deepbit is going over half the total hashing power?
211 2011-05-21 01:42:36 <eamon> Is it gonna destabalise the network?
212 2011-05-21 01:42:49 <Astriks> No, but it gives an individual power
213 2011-05-21 01:42:51 <phantomcircuit> eamon, with >50% of the hash power you can double spend
214 2011-05-21 01:42:56 <Astriks> like, not decentralized
215 2011-05-21 01:43:18 <Astriks> so indeed, he could do bad stuff and harm the network
216 2011-05-21 01:43:32 <Astriks> something 'we' try to 'prevent' with bitcoins
217 2011-05-21 01:43:36 <eamon> Why does this happen at 50%?
218 2011-05-21 01:43:46 <Astriks> eamon; the way the software works?
219 2011-05-21 01:43:59 <Astriks> like, you neeed so may nodes to invluence th network
220 2011-05-21 01:44:11 <eamon> I'm looking for something more specific
221 2011-05-21 01:44:17 <Astriks> how technical do you want to go?
222 2011-05-21 01:44:21 <eamon> fully
223 2011-05-21 01:44:24 <Astriks> hmm
224 2011-05-21 01:44:29 <Astriks> let me see
225 2011-05-21 01:44:30 <[Tycho]> This is not a problem. If this ever happens, most miners will leave the pool and the "correct" branch will take over the fork.
226 2011-05-21 01:44:51 <Astriks> eamon; you mean why at 50%?
227 2011-05-21 01:44:55 <[Tycho]> 20 hours is plenty of time to take action.
228 2011-05-21 01:44:56 <eamon> yes
229 2011-05-21 01:45:08 <Astriks> [Tycho]; could you explain that?
230 2011-05-21 01:45:27 <Astriks> It's because it's build that way, but i'm not sure
231 2011-05-21 01:45:33 <phantomcircuit> eamon, at 50% you can generate false blocks faster than the rest of the network can generate real blocks
232 2011-05-21 01:45:55 <[Tycho]> This is the reason why you need to wait for 120 blocks to confirm your generation.
233 2011-05-21 01:46:00 jake has joined
234 2011-05-21 01:46:21 <pfifo> you can double spend by being able to generate >2 blocks in a row, my 486 in the corner "could" generate 100 blocks in a row
235 2011-05-21 01:46:29 jake has quit (Client Quit)
236 2011-05-21 01:46:40 <luke-jr> eamon: with over 50% of hashing power, you can lock out all other miners
237 2011-05-21 01:47:02 <Astriks> [Tycho]; i tought it was at 7 confirms?
238 2011-05-21 01:47:14 <pfifo> why does this not work, (block 125408) hash("sha256", hash("sha256", pack(Nh64h64NNN, 1, "000000000000139abda7fbcfcd79a2df28c5d489e1a23ad52753e9cd321910ea", "98f7d691ee2609c970a9b7b3321da482b079de28c0d919617fe4d76219620feb", 1305940244, 440711666, 1148618072), true));
239 2011-05-21 01:47:15 <[Tycho]> pfifo, but after just 30 minutes your fake fork will be orphaned.
240 2011-05-21 01:48:34 rhett__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
241 2011-05-21 01:48:35 <[Tycho]> Astriks, 1 confirmation is needed by most clients to spend the transaction. But 120(101) confirmations are needed before you can spend the coin for the first time.
242 2011-05-21 01:48:59 m00p has joined
243 2011-05-21 01:49:54 <Astriks> hmm [Tycho], today i send one bitcoin (without fee) to my ubuntu client, then i tried to send it back
244 2011-05-21 01:50:06 sethsethseth_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
245 2011-05-21 01:50:08 <Astriks> but i was not able because i had to pay at least 0,01
246 2011-05-21 01:50:12 <Astriks> this is anti spam right?
247 2011-05-21 01:50:16 <[Tycho]> Yes.
248 2011-05-21 01:50:29 <Astriks> and the fact i had to wait some time
249 2011-05-21 01:50:34 <Astriks> was bacuse it was free?
250 2011-05-21 01:50:37 <[Tycho]> So if evil pool will invalidate all other's blocks, people will leave this pool and his fork will be orphaned.
251 2011-05-21 01:50:40 <Astriks> it took longer then normal
252 2011-05-21 01:50:46 <[Tycho]> Astriks, yes.
253 2011-05-21 01:50:53 <phantomcircuit> lol
254 2011-05-21 01:51:02 <Astriks> hmm
255 2011-05-21 01:51:20 <Astriks> im mining at slush his pool. not that interesting togh
256 2011-05-21 01:51:20 ezl has joined
257 2011-05-21 01:51:34 <Astriks> ~110Mhash/s
258 2011-05-21 01:51:36 <Astriks> meh
259 2011-05-21 01:51:55 <Astriks> would be 2 months if i go out in my own
260 2011-05-21 01:52:09 <Astriks> ;;bc,calc 110000000
261 2011-05-21 01:52:10 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 110000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 2 hours, 38 minutes, and 52 seconds
262 2011-05-21 01:52:15 <Astriks> D:
263 2011-05-21 01:52:24 <Astriks> ;;bc,calc 110000
264 2011-05-21 01:52:24 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 110000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 15 weeks, 5 days, 7 hours, 54 minutes, and 24 seconds
265 2011-05-21 01:52:36 da2ce7 has joined
266 2011-05-21 01:52:41 da2ce7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
267 2011-05-21 01:52:58 <Astriks> ~3.5 month
268 2011-05-21 01:53:01 <Astriks> damn
269 2011-05-21 01:53:15 <tasha3> ;;bc,calc 8000000
270 2011-05-21 01:53:15 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 8000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 1 day, 12 hours, 24 minutes, and 31 seconds
271 2011-05-21 01:53:20 <pfifo> ;;bc,calc 34000
272 2011-05-21 01:53:20 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 34000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 50 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 45 minutes, and 26 seconds
273 2011-05-21 01:53:22 <tasha3> ;;bc,calc 80000000
274 2011-05-21 01:53:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 80000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 3 hours, 38 minutes, and 27 seconds
275 2011-05-21 01:53:39 <Astriks> wait
276 2011-05-21 01:53:40 <Astriks> so
277 2011-05-21 01:53:49 <Astriks> one would have 50BTC in 3 hours?
278 2011-05-21 01:53:53 <Astriks> 3 and a half
279 2011-05-21 01:53:56 <Astriks> wat
280 2011-05-21 01:54:05 <Astriks> they crazy
281 2011-05-21 01:54:13 <Astriks> i mean
282 2011-05-21 01:54:23 <Astriks> that power level must be over 9000!
283 2011-05-21 01:54:24 <pfifo> whats the khps required to generate a block in 10 minutes?
284 2011-05-21 01:54:37 keithhub has joined
285 2011-05-21 01:54:38 falafell has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
286 2011-05-21 01:54:41 <Astriks> ;;bc,calc 10000000000
287 2011-05-21 01:54:41 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 10000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 1 minute and 44 seconds
288 2011-05-21 01:54:46 <Astriks> ;;bc,calc 1000000000
289 2011-05-21 01:54:46 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000000000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 17 minutes and 28 seconds
290 2011-05-21 01:54:57 <Astriks> bonk!
291 2011-05-21 01:55:37 <Astriks> like
292 2011-05-21 01:55:44 <Astriks> 1000 of my current gaming computer
293 2011-05-21 01:55:46 <Astriks> :(
294 2011-05-21 01:56:12 <pfifo> so its pretty accurate to say the entire network is going at about 2Thps
295 2011-05-21 01:56:19 <phantomcircuit> quickly
296 2011-05-21 01:57:54 <pfifo> why does this not work, (block 125408) hash("sha256", hash("sha256", pack("Nh64h64NNN", 1, "000000000000139abda7fbcfcd79a2df28c5d489e1a23ad52753e9cd321910ea", "98f7d691ee2609c970a9b7b3321da482b079de28c0d919617fe4d76219620feb", 1305940244, 440711666, 1148618072), true));
297 2011-05-21 01:58:12 <pfifo> are we still using sha256?
298 2011-05-21 01:58:30 <phantomcircuit> it's double sha256
299 2011-05-21 01:58:54 gasteve_ has joined
300 2011-05-21 02:00:41 <pfifo> there isnt enough information to implement a block checker, atleast not in the wiki/forum
301 2011-05-21 02:01:20 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, uh yes there is
302 2011-05-21 02:01:24 <phantomcircuit> since i've done it
303 2011-05-21 02:01:28 <pfifo> where?
304 2011-05-21 02:01:41 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
305 2011-05-21 02:01:42 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.1,"low":5.5772,"vol":46332,"buy":6.1001,"sell":6.2999,"last":6.2999}}
306 2011-05-21 02:01:48 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, http://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt
307 2011-05-21 02:02:00 bitcoiner has joined
308 2011-05-21 02:03:18 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, no i mean where did you find docs?
309 2011-05-21 02:03:43 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, on the forum, what questions do you have i can answer them pretty easily
310 2011-05-21 02:04:22 MasterChief has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
311 2011-05-21 02:04:26 gasteve_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
312 2011-05-21 02:04:33 gasteve_ has joined
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314 2011-05-21 02:05:04 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, on the fist sha256 pass, what endiness do the integers need to be in?
315 2011-05-21 02:05:07 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, lol not on the forum sorry talking to too many people at the same time
316 2011-05-21 02:05:13 <Diablo-D3> whos here on win64 using my miner?
317 2011-05-21 02:05:15 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, little endian
318 2011-05-21 02:05:32 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, everything is little endian except the ip/port in the p2p protocol
319 2011-05-21 02:05:46 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, and the hashing uses the same serialization as the p2p protocol
320 2011-05-21 02:06:23 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, for the first pass, the previous and merkel hashes, do i pass them as ascii or binary?
321 2011-05-21 02:06:38 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, what?
322 2011-05-21 02:06:44 <phantomcircuit> you mean hex encoded sha256 ?
323 2011-05-21 02:06:47 <phantomcircuit> no it's binary
324 2011-05-21 02:06:47 noagendamarket has joined
325 2011-05-21 02:08:07 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, i mean, say i have a check sum that begind with 'a', do i pass the ascii value of a (92) or the hex value of a (10)
326 2011-05-21 02:08:37 <luke-jr> â¦
327 2011-05-21 02:08:48 <phantomcircuit> ok now i literally have no idea what you're trying to ask
328 2011-05-21 02:08:49 <phantomcircuit> like
329 2011-05-21 02:08:50 <phantomcircuit> at all
330 2011-05-21 02:08:54 <jgarzik> me either
331 2011-05-21 02:09:06 <jgarzik> maybe try ebcdic ;p
332 2011-05-21 02:09:23 IncitatusOnWater has quit (Quit: Leaving)
333 2011-05-21 02:09:37 <luke-jr> lol
334 2011-05-21 02:09:59 <pfifo> a checksum is the hexcidecmial representation of a number
335 2011-05-21 02:10:26 <luke-jr> no
336 2011-05-21 02:10:38 <luke-jr> the checksum IS the numbe
337 2011-05-21 02:11:24 <pfifo> right, and should i pass the number, or the ascii
338 2011-05-21 02:11:51 anarchocap has joined
339 2011-05-21 02:14:32 mesees has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
340 2011-05-21 02:14:44 <pfifo> this comes into play on this page, at the top where their checksumming "hello" https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification if you follow their example and checksum "hello" youll get the desired result, but for the second checksum, if you checksum "2cf24dba5fb0a30e26e83b2ac5b9e29e1b161e5c1fa7425e73043362938b9824" you will NOT get the second number listed there... this is because your checksumming the human readable form of the binary
341 2011-05-21 02:14:44 <pfifo> that was produced.
342 2011-05-21 02:15:20 sethsethseth_ has joined
343 2011-05-21 02:15:36 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
344 2011-05-21 02:15:36 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.1,"low":5.5772,"vol":46573,"buy":6.2009,"sell":6.39,"last":6.3993}}
345 2011-05-21 02:15:47 MasterChief has joined
346 2011-05-21 02:17:15 <pfifo> pfifo@pfifo-desktop:~$ echo -n "hello" | sha256sum | sed 's/ *-.*//' | sha256sum
347 2011-05-21 02:17:15 <pfifo> e62965c744c6b6df887dbcdc8349aa67ad79c762f2310b40dc444893719163fd -
348 2011-05-21 02:17:41 <pfifo> does that make sense now?
349 2011-05-21 02:18:31 <jgarzik> pfifo: all of bitcoin is binary
350 2011-05-21 02:18:45 <jgarzik> pfifo: it might get converted when output via HTTP JSON-RPC, but ignore that
351 2011-05-21 02:19:12 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
352 2011-05-21 02:19:19 <jgarzik> pfifo: you are hashing binary data, C++ data structures. sha256(sha256(C++ 80-byte binary block header))
353 2011-05-21 02:19:27 tasha3 has left ()
354 2011-05-21 02:20:02 <pfifo> jgarzik, can you give me an example 80 byte block header and the checksum its supposed to generate
355 2011-05-21 02:20:43 <jgarzik> pfifo: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
356 2011-05-21 02:21:22 <jgarzik> pfifo: you can download and examine the data yourself. block chain is fully open, as is the source code for bitcoin and all hashing miners (CPU and GPU).
357 2011-05-21 02:21:52 <pfifo> jgarzik, yes that what im trying todo, but there isnt enough information in that page
358 2011-05-21 02:22:53 <pfifo> i can write C, but not python, and im not intrested in a pool miner that uses a midstate but rater the from scratch block generation method, so I have yet to see a good example in code
359 2011-05-21 02:23:28 sethsethseth__ has joined
360 2011-05-21 02:23:36 <jgarzik> pfifo: see https://github.com/jgarzik/pyminer or https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer and especially https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
361 2011-05-21 02:24:30 sethsethseth___ has joined
362 2011-05-21 02:24:44 alystair has joined
363 2011-05-21 02:24:53 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, he said good and not python
364 2011-05-21 02:24:58 <phantomcircuit> oh your cpuminer
365 2011-05-21 02:24:59 <phantomcircuit> that works
366 2011-05-21 02:25:22 Cusipzzz has joined
367 2011-05-21 02:25:27 howlingmonkey has left ()
368 2011-05-21 02:25:40 sethsethseth_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
369 2011-05-21 02:26:30 <pfifo> jgarzik, look, ive check into cpuminer and bitcoin. I reserve IRC for when im desperate
370 2011-05-21 02:26:39 * pfifo is desprate
371 2011-05-21 02:27:58 sethsethseth__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
372 2011-05-21 02:29:13 <pfifo> if you have a piece of code that hasnt been optomized and performs only what im intrested in doing, that would be a great help, but threading and sse involved in thos clients makes it difficult to follow exactly what is happening
373 2011-05-21 02:30:05 <jgarzik> pfifo: sha256_via.c
374 2011-05-21 02:30:38 <jgarzik> pfifo: cpuminer is multi-threaded yes... but each sha256 instance is single-threaded.
375 2011-05-21 02:31:00 <oneman> jgarzik, tried to message u about something
376 2011-05-21 02:31:03 <oneman> no reply
377 2011-05-21 02:31:21 <jgarzik> oneman: yes, I saw the messages
378 2011-05-21 02:31:26 <oneman> I think you would care
379 2011-05-21 02:31:40 <jgarzik> oneman: why?
380 2011-05-21 02:32:07 <oneman> I just thought you would
381 2011-05-21 02:35:10 <pfifo> jgarzik, yeah that would be GREAT if I had a via to try it with
382 2011-05-21 02:35:31 <jgarzik> pfifo: if you can read C source code, that shows you precisely what to do
383 2011-05-21 02:35:37 <pfifo> jgarzik, as far as the code goes im doing EXACTLY that
384 2011-05-21 02:35:55 <jgarzik> pfifo: replace "via_sha256" with your favorite sha256 algo
385 2011-05-21 02:36:07 <jgarzik> pfifo: and make sure to get the stupid byteswapping right
386 2011-05-21 02:36:08 <eamon> http://boards.4chan.org/g/res/17628295#17628462
387 2011-05-21 02:36:15 <pfifo> jgarzik, the C algo uses a midstate
388 2011-05-21 02:37:08 MiltB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
389 2011-05-21 02:37:09 <jgarzik> pfifo: you asked for the simplest, straightforward, easy to read working example. sha256_via.c.
390 2011-05-21 02:37:14 <jgarzik> pfifo: midstate is optional
391 2011-05-21 02:37:24 <jgarzik> pfifo: it saves time, that's all
392 2011-05-21 02:38:28 <pfifo> jgarzik, that isnt a working example imo, wont run without the right hardware, so putting a printf() in there cant be done
393 2011-05-21 02:38:43 vorlov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
394 2011-05-21 02:38:51 <pfifo> "Illegal Instruction"
395 2011-05-21 02:38:52 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> pfifo: replace "via_sha256" with your favorite sha256 algo
396 2011-05-21 02:39:00 * jgarzik isn't sure what else to say
397 2011-05-21 02:39:01 vorlov has joined
398 2011-05-21 02:39:20 diki has quit ()
399 2011-05-21 02:39:33 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
400 2011-05-21 02:39:54 noagendamarket has quit (Excess Flood)
401 2011-05-21 02:40:45 <pfifo> jgarzik, ohh i mis read, your telling me to swap out the actal function
402 2011-05-21 02:41:11 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
403 2011-05-21 02:42:03 noagendamarket has joined
404 2011-05-21 02:45:37 sabalabas has joined
405 2011-05-21 02:47:26 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 85000
406 2011-05-21 02:47:27 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 85000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.350190849081 BTC per day and 0.0145912853784 BTC per hour.
407 2011-05-21 02:48:35 Spenvo has joined
408 2011-05-21 02:49:56 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 196000
409 2011-05-21 02:49:58 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 196000 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 0.807498899057 BTC per day and 0.0336457874607 BTC per hour.
410 2011-05-21 02:54:14 BlueMatt has joined
411 2011-05-21 02:54:33 <pfifo> jgarzik, I cant get it to work right
412 2011-05-21 02:54:45 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
413 2011-05-21 02:56:37 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, what are you trying to do...?
414 2011-05-21 02:56:48 <vorlov> Diablo-D3: are you here?
415 2011-05-21 02:57:50 billy_ran_away has joined
416 2011-05-21 02:57:50 BlueMattBot has joined
417 2011-05-21 02:57:54 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, compute the checksum of block# 125408, which is "0000000000003cc913fb9fd8f3970f00fb50ed22f4f533b07c5dbed9c2b0655d" but neither my C ode nor m PHP code will return the correct checksum
418 2011-05-21 02:58:58 <oneman> If any coder here with opencl experience wants to work with me on my WebCL miner message me, or anyone who wants to donate to or invest in the project.
419 2011-05-21 02:59:22 <billy_ran_away> Hey, I'm just sort of discovering bitcoin, is there any instructions that show to how to manually "solve" the Genesis block? Like maybe in a high level language or bash or something?
420 2011-05-21 02:59:31 <pfifo> IF someone could give me the 80 byte block header as its fed to the hasing alco, i would INSTANTLY know where i am going wrong
421 2011-05-21 02:59:36 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, that's the hash of the block, not the block data
422 2011-05-21 03:00:01 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, you misread
423 2011-05-21 03:00:21 <luke-jr> anyone know how many MH I can get with a nvidia TNT 2?
424 2011-05-21 03:00:40 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, im fairly certain i did not
425 2011-05-21 03:00:43 keithhub has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
426 2011-05-21 03:01:09 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, you're trying to calculate the checksum in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Message_structure
427 2011-05-21 03:01:33 noagendamarket has joined
428 2011-05-21 03:02:17 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, no you misread, im sure of it, i am not feeding THAT check sum to sha256(sha256())
429 2011-05-21 03:02:36 <pfifo> i am feeding THIS "0100000000000000000031a9db7abffcdc972afd825c4d981e2aa35d72359edc239101ae897f6d19ee62909c079a7b3b23d14a280b97ed820c9d9116f74e7d269126f0be1411d74df2b9441a58857644"
430 2011-05-21 03:02:59 rhett__ has joined
431 2011-05-21 03:03:46 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, as a string?
432 2011-05-21 03:04:01 <phantomcircuit> or is that the hex of what you're sending to sha256
433 2011-05-21 03:04:23 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, i converted the binary data into hex, i am feeding it binary data
434 2011-05-21 03:04:37 <pfifo> my result is 085e2568b917bce65f32b3970939df55cd9649e596d70f6d913f915f3c6c10e8
435 2011-05-21 03:06:06 usm has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
436 2011-05-21 03:06:19 matrix has joined
437 2011-05-21 03:06:24 <jgarzik> pfifo: are you byte- and word-swapping?
438 2011-05-21 03:06:25 <pfifo> is that what the block header actually is? cause im 99% sure, im putting the header together wrong, either an endianess problem, or possibbly i have things in reverse order
439 2011-05-21 03:06:31 noagendamarket has quit (Excess Flood)
440 2011-05-21 03:06:35 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, the hash is little endian
441 2011-05-21 03:07:28 <pfifo> can either of you give me the actual block header?
442 2011-05-21 03:07:29 Incitatus has joined
443 2011-05-21 03:07:38 noagendamarket has joined
444 2011-05-21 03:07:59 <alystair> I have an odd question
445 2011-05-21 03:08:03 <eamon> [Tycho]: Do you make electronic music?
446 2011-05-21 03:08:08 <alystair> why isn't pooled mining part of the normal client?
447 2011-05-21 03:08:17 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, no but i can tell you that your prev_hash is wrong
448 2011-05-21 03:08:27 <eamon> [Tycho]: If so, I bought one of your albums.
449 2011-05-21 03:08:29 <alystair> it seems like the more beneficial thing to do
450 2011-05-21 03:08:32 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, reversed?
451 2011-05-21 03:08:47 <alystair> as more and more cpu cycles get used for bitcoin
452 2011-05-21 03:08:56 rhett__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
453 2011-05-21 03:09:06 <alystair> where a single client normally wouldn't be able to do anything
454 2011-05-21 03:09:07 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, no, simply wrong there is no block with that hash
455 2011-05-21 03:09:11 * eamon uses 0 cpu cycles on bitcoin
456 2011-05-21 03:09:22 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000031a9db7abffcdc972afd825c4d981e2aa35d72359edc239101ae
457 2011-05-21 03:09:24 <eamon> GPU is the new CPU!
458 2011-05-21 03:09:41 <phantomcircuit> alystair, you shouldn't be using the mining in the mainline client anyways
459 2011-05-21 03:09:55 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, http://blockexplorer.com/b/125407
460 2011-05-21 03:09:55 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
461 2011-05-21 03:11:12 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, ahh i see
462 2011-05-21 03:11:38 <alystair> phantomcircuit... most people don't know that!
463 2011-05-21 03:11:41 <alystair> once bitcoin gets public
464 2011-05-21 03:11:46 <alystair> they will just be blowing away cpu cycles :S
465 2011-05-21 03:11:57 <alystair> might as well make mainline client more practical for the 'general bitcoin consumer'
466 2011-05-21 03:12:40 <phantomcircuit> alystair, it's been removed from the newest client iirc
467 2011-05-21 03:12:47 <alystair> ah neat!
468 2011-05-21 03:12:57 <alystair> so it's a true 'wallet' system then :)
469 2011-05-21 03:13:12 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, ok i fixed that problem, but still dont get the right checksum :( sha256(sha256(01000000000000000000139abda7fbcfcd79a2df28c5d489e1a23ad52753e9cd321910ea98f7d691ee2609c970a9b7b3321da482b079de28c0d919617fe4d76219620feb1411d74df2b9441a58857644)) = 516d2f9d6b6e073a46ce788c344053f8b3b923c7f91c8b854a43a3308236cef6
470 2011-05-21 03:13:12 <alystair> software rather
471 2011-05-21 03:13:31 <alystair> any folks here that know the base algorithm?
472 2011-05-21 03:13:40 <alystair> I have a question regarding splitting work into even smaller chunks
473 2011-05-21 03:14:05 sethsethseth____ has joined
474 2011-05-21 03:14:22 sethsethseth____ is now known as sethsethseth_
475 2011-05-21 03:14:33 <phantomcircuit> alystair, the work unit is already split into very small pieces
476 2011-05-21 03:14:54 sethsethseth__ has joined
477 2011-05-21 03:15:09 <alystair> oh, per hash?
478 2011-05-21 03:15:50 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, merkle root is wrong now
479 2011-05-21 03:16:22 sethsethseth___ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
480 2011-05-21 03:16:22 <phantomcircuit> alystair, what?
481 2011-05-21 03:16:43 <alystair> phantomcircuit: where is there an explanation, I saw a javascript based system but was wondering how everything really works
482 2011-05-21 03:16:46 * alystair did not read the FAQ ;O
483 2011-05-21 03:16:51 <alystair> I didn't read anything, really
484 2011-05-21 03:16:58 * alystair is dangerously underknowledged
485 2011-05-21 03:17:08 <phantomcircuit> alystair, lol
486 2011-05-21 03:17:09 <phantomcircuit> uh
487 2011-05-21 03:17:20 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin is a distributed notary basically
488 2011-05-21 03:17:39 <alystair> ok not that simple :P
489 2011-05-21 03:17:48 <alystair> I meant on the technical level if I wanted to make my own js based thing
490 2011-05-21 03:18:03 <alystair> in-browser-mining magic
491 2011-05-21 03:18:16 <phantomcircuit> alystair, uh it's 2 rounds of sha256 on the block header until the double sha256 is less than the target
492 2011-05-21 03:18:34 sethsethseth_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
493 2011-05-21 03:18:42 <phantomcircuit> alystair, also mining in a browser is a huge waste of time, you'll generate a block maybe once every billion years or so
494 2011-05-21 03:18:59 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
495 2011-05-21 03:19:08 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, where are you getting this data from?
496 2011-05-21 03:19:16 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, no the merkel is right, are you sure your comparing it to the right block? if so then please be more specific about what is wrong with it
497 2011-05-21 03:19:20 <alystair> phantomcircuit: it becomes easily distributed tho'
498 2011-05-21 03:19:34 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, http://blockexplorer.com/rawblock/0000000000003cc913fb9fd8f3970f00fb50ed22f4f533b07c5dbed9c2b0655d
499 2011-05-21 03:19:36 <phantomcircuit> alystair, yeah it's also hilariously slow
500 2011-05-21 03:19:40 <alystair> http://lorinhalpert.com/ipoc/gamegossip/gamegossip-redo.jpg
501 2011-05-21 03:19:41 <alystair> er
502 2011-05-21 03:19:42 <alystair> whoops
503 2011-05-21 03:19:43 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
504 2011-05-21 03:19:46 <ezl> https://github.com/ezl/mtgox
505 2011-05-21 03:19:50 <ezl> python wrapper for the mtgox api
506 2011-05-21 03:19:56 <alystair> stupid paste hotkey
507 2011-05-21 03:22:03 <ne0futur> ezl: great, thanks for the link !
508 2011-05-21 03:22:16 <ne0futur> there is still no open source trading bot ?
509 2011-05-21 03:22:28 <ne0futur> even with a minimal intelligence
510 2011-05-21 03:23:14 <ezl> thats my plan...
511 2011-05-21 03:23:23 <ezl> but need a reasonable source for market data
512 2011-05-21 03:23:37 <ezl> what would it take to make a better exchange?
513 2011-05-21 03:24:59 <ne0futur> there are much data on bitcoincharts.com
514 2011-05-21 03:25:05 gasteve_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
515 2011-05-21 03:25:06 <ne0futur> mtgox and more
516 2011-05-21 03:25:28 MrHako has quit ()
517 2011-05-21 03:25:43 <ezl> seems like making the exchange is the cash cow though
518 2011-05-21 03:26:57 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, any ideas?
519 2011-05-21 03:27:09 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
520 2011-05-21 03:27:10 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":7.04,"low":5.5772,"vol":46895,"buy":6.0434,"sell":6.1498,"last":6.1872}}
521 2011-05-21 03:27:27 <ne0futur> ezl: talk with MagicalTux he ll sure hear your suggestions
522 2011-05-21 03:27:36 <luke-jr> lol
523 2011-05-21 03:27:40 <ne0futur> nop ?
524 2011-05-21 03:27:53 <luke-jr> ne0futur: ezl's suggestion is that ezl gets the trade fees :P
525 2011-05-21 03:28:23 <ne0futur> I was asking of making an open source trading bot
526 2011-05-21 03:28:46 <ezl> haha i'd love that
527 2011-05-21 03:28:51 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, all your hashes are reversed
528 2011-05-21 03:29:01 <ezl> i really just want a way to listen on a pipe for tick data
529 2011-05-21 03:29:24 <ezl> but if it didin't exist, i was thinking "well shit, maybe i should see what it takes to make an exchange, so i could just HAVE all the tick data"
530 2011-05-21 03:29:30 <ezl> reinventing the wheel
531 2011-05-21 03:29:32 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, like i said the block hashes are little endian
532 2011-05-21 03:29:39 tcoppi has joined
533 2011-05-21 03:30:18 <ne0futur> using bitcoincharts.com to gather all the data from different markets and giving this tick could be an idea nop ?
534 2011-05-21 03:32:53 <ne0futur> ezl: talk with tcatm sure he could be interested
535 2011-05-21 03:32:59 <ne0futur> and sure MagicalTux could help
536 2011-05-21 03:33:00 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, so like this? sha256(sha256(00000001ae019123dc9e35725da32a1e984d5c82fd2a97dcfcbf7adba931000000000000bef02691267d4ef716919d0c82ed970b284ad1233b7b9a079c9062ee196d7f894dd711141a44b9f244768558)) = 48211f278088b797234bf948ed4cc081923e7f8d9a8d8c19debec895ff31c49a
537 2011-05-21 03:33:35 <ezl> cool
538 2011-05-21 03:33:40 <ezl> ne0futur: you a trader?
539 2011-05-21 03:33:53 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, NO YOU MEAN LIKE THIS!!!!! sha256(sha256(01000000ea101932cde95327d53aa2e189d4c528dfa279cdcffba7bd9a13000000000000eb0f621962d7e47f6119d9c028de79b082a41d32b3b7a970c90926ee91d6f7981411d74df2b9441a58857644)) = 5d65b0c2d9be5d7cb033f5f422ed50fb000f97f3d89ffb13c93c000000000000
540 2011-05-21 03:34:03 <billy_ran_away> Hey, I'm just sort of discovering bitcoin, is there any instructions that show to how to manually "solve" the Genesis block? Like maybe in a high level language or bash or something?
541 2011-05-21 03:34:11 <luke-jr> â¦
542 2011-05-21 03:34:21 <luke-jr> that makes no sense
543 2011-05-21 03:34:36 <ne0futur> ezl: more or less, trying to help new users getting in the bitcoin wave
544 2011-05-21 03:34:50 jfksir has joined
545 2011-05-21 03:35:08 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, thanks so much, Ive been working on this for like 8 hours now, ill drop this info in the forum at some point
546 2011-05-21 03:35:13 <ne0futur> ezl: i use mtgox and bitcoin market and #bitcoin-otc but rarely daytrader
547 2011-05-21 03:35:25 <ne0futur> (not enough time a bot could help me :p )
548 2011-05-21 03:35:27 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, put it in the wiki block_hashing_algorithm page
549 2011-05-21 03:35:45 <jfksir> heh this is a pretty cool nick considering i just bashed on the keyboad
550 2011-05-21 03:36:19 <currentB> lol
551 2011-05-21 03:36:51 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, uh that doesn't make much sense
552 2011-05-21 03:37:06 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, you mean to calculate the hash of a block header?
553 2011-05-21 03:37:15 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, what language are you doing this in btw?
554 2011-05-21 03:37:36 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: Yea, I'm mining right now with poclbm, but I want to understand it better.
555 2011-05-21 03:37:58 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: So I wanted to maybe just solve an easy one that had already been solved.
556 2011-05-21 03:38:00 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, what kind of background do you have?
557 2011-05-21 03:38:02 <ne0futur> ezl: and iirc the two of them like python too ;)
558 2011-05-21 03:38:12 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: Programmer.
559 2011-05-21 03:38:32 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, fist i started on C, and it failed, i deleted that code and tried to do a midstate version as a sanity check, when that failed, I reverted to PHP for simplicity
560 2011-05-21 03:38:49 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, bitcoin is a distributed notary system
561 2011-05-21 03:38:52 <phantomcircuit> I reverted to PHP for simplicity
562 2011-05-21 03:38:54 <phantomcircuit> lol wat
563 2011-05-21 03:39:18 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, PHP for me is very very easy
564 2011-05-21 03:39:20 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, so basically the way it works is that you broadcast your transaction onto the network and the miners include it in their block
565 2011-05-21 03:39:23 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: I know that, I just wanted to "experience" or understand the specifics of mining.
566 2011-05-21 03:39:28 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, like BASIC easy
567 2011-05-21 03:39:39 <jfksir> so if i modify the client to send a transaction with no fee...will ppl use it in their block atm?
568 2011-05-21 03:39:41 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, except it's not
569 2011-05-21 03:40:00 <jfksir> i look at the blocks and it seems like lots of fairly large transactions get through with no fee
570 2011-05-21 03:40:20 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: I understand how the transactions and trading bitcoin works. I just wanted to see the math behind the hash blocks and how it relates to the actual coins, especially in relation to mining.
571 2011-05-21 03:40:21 <phantomcircuit> jfksir, you'd just have to find a miner who would include free transactions
572 2011-05-21 03:40:24 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
573 2011-05-21 03:40:33 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, http://fpaste.org/d2Nk/
574 2011-05-21 03:40:44 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, you run sha256(sha256(block)) until it's < target
575 2011-05-21 03:41:02 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, it's a lottery
576 2011-05-21 03:41:28 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: Right now in my head I have an analogy that mining is like having your computer do scratch off's and as more computer do scratch offs the more little things your computer has to scratch off to see if it's current ticket is a winner.
577 2011-05-21 03:41:35 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, yeah so? that's slow as hell and about twice as long as my python implementation
578 2011-05-21 03:41:59 <billy_ran_away> And the faster your computer can scratch off the ticket the more times it can check in relation to the other computers also scratching...
579 2011-05-21 03:42:05 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, more or less that's an accurate analogy
580 2011-05-21 03:42:06 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, speed has no relevance in learning how something works
581 2011-05-21 03:42:17 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, ok then
582 2011-05-21 03:42:46 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, and i dont know python, even examples escape me there
583 2011-05-21 03:43:02 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: So I guess I wanted to walk though the easy scratch off myself... So I could see process for myself. And I figured the Genesis block was the easiest.
584 2011-05-21 03:43:19 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, uh you cant do the math by hand really
585 2011-05-21 03:43:24 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, it would take you weeks
586 2011-05-21 03:43:43 <billy_ran_away> I know, by hand I meant program something myself either in Java, or bash, or ruby or perl
587 2011-05-21 03:44:07 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, take the block data (which was 100% arbitrary) then hash it twice with sha256
588 2011-05-21 03:44:16 <_Maru_> when I make a transaction does it show up right away? or it takes 10 min before it shows up...
589 2011-05-21 03:44:40 <billy_ran_away> Okay cool
590 2011-05-21 03:44:55 <phantomcircuit> _Maru_, it will show up right away (if all goes well), but will be listed as unconfirmed
591 2011-05-21 03:45:23 <_Maru_> what are the chances of an unconfirmed transaction turn to a fail?
592 2011-05-21 03:45:48 <billy_ran_away> phantomcircuit: Which field is the block data in this? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block
593 2011-05-21 03:45:51 <phantomcircuit> _Maru_, probably not high, but it's happened
594 2011-05-21 03:46:54 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
595 2011-05-21 03:47:10 <phantomcircuit> _Maru_, i'd make the choice based on how much money it is
596 2011-05-21 03:47:53 <Diablo-D3> [10:50:27] <vorlov> Diablo-D3: are you here?
597 2011-05-21 03:47:54 <Diablo-D3> yes
598 2011-05-21 03:48:09 <phantomcircuit> lies
599 2011-05-21 03:48:21 <pfifo> billy_ran_away, the block header and checksum for block 0 sha256(sha256(0100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003ba3edfd7a7b12b27ac72c3e67768f617fc81bc3888a51323a9fb8aa4b1e5e4a29ab5f49ffff001d1dac2b7c)) = 000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f
600 2011-05-21 03:48:22 <vorlov> Diablo-D3: what can you use to overpower an ATI 5870 in linux
601 2011-05-21 03:48:22 <vorlov> ?
602 2011-05-21 03:48:32 <gjs278> radeon bios editor
603 2011-05-21 03:48:38 <billy_ran_away> pfifo: Awesome thanks.
604 2011-05-21 03:49:33 <pfifo> billy_ran_away, (in human readable ascii representation of course)
605 2011-05-21 03:50:10 <vorlov> and that i understand is only available in windows?
606 2011-05-21 03:50:31 <billy_ran_away> So in bash it's sha256sum `sha256sum `echo "0100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003ba3edfd7a7b12b27ac72c3e67768f617fc81bc3888a51323a9fb8aa4b1e5e4a29ab5f49ffff001d1dac2b7c"``
607 2011-05-21 03:50:31 <billy_ran_away> ?
608 2011-05-21 03:50:43 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, no
609 2011-05-21 03:50:55 <phantomcircuit> billy_ran_away, he gave you a hex encoded raw block
610 2011-05-21 03:51:02 <billy_ran_away> ohhhh
611 2011-05-21 03:51:14 sm00th has joined
612 2011-05-21 03:51:20 <pfifo> billy_ran_away, nope wont work the command `sha256sum` outputs human readable ascii, you need rwa binary format
613 2011-05-21 03:51:26 <F4C3> god damn magento is a bitch if a framework to develop on
614 2011-05-21 03:52:13 <phantomcircuit> bitch of
615 2011-05-21 03:52:18 <phantomcircuit> it's a bitch of a framework
616 2011-05-21 03:52:23 <F4C3> thanks
617 2011-05-21 03:52:23 <phantomcircuit> some people...
618 2011-05-21 03:52:58 <pfifo> billy_ran_away, awk can convers ascii to binary, but i forget how
619 2011-05-21 03:53:01 <jfksir> error:14090086:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_SERVER_CERTIFICATE:certificate verify failed while accessing https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git/info/refs
620 2011-05-21 03:53:08 <phantomcircuit> haha bye time to cause mayhem
621 2011-05-21 03:53:10 <phantomcircuit> XDXD
622 2011-05-21 03:58:28 noagendamarket has quit (Excess Flood)
623 2011-05-21 03:59:33 noagendamarket has joined
624 2011-05-21 04:01:57 <vorlov> what do u guys normally get out of a 5870 ? in terms of mhash/s
625 2011-05-21 04:07:01 <gjs278> 401
626 2011-05-21 04:07:03 <gjs278> 925 core clock
627 2011-05-21 04:07:05 <gjs278> 300 mem
628 2011-05-21 04:07:10 <gjs278> latest poclbm
629 2011-05-21 04:07:20 qethree has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
630 2011-05-21 04:07:33 <sm00th> how do you undclock mem on linux
631 2011-05-21 04:07:41 jivvz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
632 2011-05-21 04:07:52 <sm00th> i tried the atconfig --od stuff and it wont let me do it
633 2011-05-21 04:09:15 <gjs278> you can't do it on that
634 2011-05-21 04:09:25 <gjs278> you need to use AMDOverdriveCtl
635 2011-05-21 04:09:51 <vorlov> is there a way to respawn in gnome the way upstart respawns dying processes?
636 2011-05-21 04:09:58 F4C3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
637 2011-05-21 04:10:45 ForceDestroyer has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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640 2011-05-21 04:16:18 <vorlov> will amdoverdrivectl let u do all that without reflashing the bios of a 5870
641 2011-05-21 04:16:19 <vorlov> ?
642 2011-05-21 04:16:55 <vorlov> i have kindof a noob question here... i just installed the deb package of amdoverdrivectl... whats the name of the binary to execute?
643 2011-05-21 04:18:41 <oneman> ill answer all your questions about AMD overdrive control for a few BTC
644 2011-05-21 04:18:44 <oneman> :D
645 2011-05-21 04:19:22 bitcoiner is now known as sonihr
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647 2011-05-21 04:20:50 sonihr is now known as bitcoiner
648 2011-05-21 04:21:07 bitcoiner is now known as sonihr
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650 2011-05-21 04:22:29 Nes-asleep is now known as Nesetalis
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652 2011-05-21 04:29:31 <vorlov> how were u able to set 925mgz with amdoverdrivectl
653 2011-05-21 04:29:31 <vorlov> ?
654 2011-05-21 04:29:34 <vorlov> i can only get 900
655 2011-05-21 04:30:15 <Diablo-D3> [11:42:00] <vorlov> Diablo-D3: what can you use to overpower an ATI 5870 in linux
656 2011-05-21 04:30:27 <Diablo-D3> other than what amdoverdrivectrl does?
657 2011-05-21 04:30:31 <Diablo-D3> nothing much
658 2011-05-21 04:30:36 <Diablo-D3> we dont have a bios editor yet
659 2011-05-21 04:30:51 <vorlov> gjs278 mentioned getting 925mhz on his clock
660 2011-05-21 04:30:53 <vorlov> in linux
661 2011-05-21 04:30:55 <vorlov> and im trying to figure out how
662 2011-05-21 04:31:46 discHead has joined
663 2011-05-21 04:31:59 <Diablo-D3> without a bios editor, different manufs have different bioses
664 2011-05-21 04:32:08 <erbs> hows it gooong
665 2011-05-21 04:32:12 <Diablo-D3> they're all one of AMD's revisions, but they have their clock/volt tables modified
666 2011-05-21 04:32:31 <Diablo-D3> swapping in random firmwares isnt recommended
667 2011-05-21 04:32:41 <Diablo-D3> but you can edit your existing one with an editor
668 2011-05-21 04:32:48 <Diablo-D3> but they're in windows only
669 2011-05-21 04:34:05 <vorlov> i c
670 2011-05-21 04:34:12 <vorlov> so basically im set with what i have in amdoverdrivectrl
671 2011-05-21 04:34:19 <vorlov> which really isn't much diff than what aticonfig lets me do
672 2011-05-21 04:34:22 <XX01XX> What's the usual rule for showing proof-of-work in a pool?
673 2011-05-21 04:34:38 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
674 2011-05-21 04:34:55 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: well for one you can memory underclock
675 2011-05-21 04:35:03 <jfksir> process_begin: CreateProcess(NULL, -c "if not exist gcc_mswud mkdir gcc_mswud", ...) failed. make (e=2): The system cannot find the file specified.
676 2011-05-21 04:35:15 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: I dont understand your question
677 2011-05-21 04:35:22 <jfksir> when i do wxWidgets-2.9.1\build\msw>mingw32-make -f makefile.gcc on windoze
678 2011-05-21 04:35:52 <XX01XX> What's the usual way pools decide who gets what share?
679 2011-05-21 04:35:59 <erbs> suuuuuppppppppppp
680 2011-05-21 04:36:10 <jfksir> am i supposed to be running inside some ming shell or something?
681 2011-05-21 04:36:13 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: you have a login and passsword
682 2011-05-21 04:36:21 <erbs> XX01XX: poolmaster picks a number out of the air and divides everyones share by that
683 2011-05-21 04:36:36 <jfksir> hmm no is says DOS Shell...
684 2011-05-21 04:36:37 <erbs> (but he assures everyone the total # isn't inflated)
685 2011-05-21 04:36:39 <XX01XX> very scientific, erbs
686 2011-05-21 04:36:48 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: your equestion is going to need to be fleshed out
687 2011-05-21 04:36:50 <jfksir> has anyone tried this out? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.txt
688 2011-05-21 04:37:10 <vorlov> Diablo-D3: i just tried that... got up to 400.... can u explain to me why underclocking does that???
689 2011-05-21 04:37:28 <XX01XX> How is it tracked how much work people in the pool have done?
690 2011-05-21 04:37:33 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: underclocking memory gives you a bigger power and thermal budget
691 2011-05-21 04:37:45 <jfksir> XX01XX: it doesn't
692 2011-05-21 04:37:51 <vorlov> Diablo-D3: layman terms....?
693 2011-05-21 04:37:55 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: if you're hitting VRM max temp already and your GPU is auto-throttling, it can lead to this
694 2011-05-21 04:38:01 <jfksir> XX01XX: it just tracks the number of blocks created
695 2011-05-21 04:38:08 <jfksir> within a given timeframe
696 2011-05-21 04:38:11 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: but you'd have to exceed 85c on most cards, although 5970s may or may not hit it earlier
697 2011-05-21 04:38:22 <erbs> XX01XX: the poolmaster tells everyone else what he says is the amount of work done by the pool
698 2011-05-21 04:38:27 <jfksir> if it's running at more than 2016 per 2 weeks, difficulty goes up
699 2011-05-21 04:38:37 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: if you're asking how do you calculate prop payout, you count all shares since the last time a pool made a block
700 2011-05-21 04:38:43 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: and then you divide accordinglyu
701 2011-05-21 04:38:56 <XX01XX> How are shares proven is the question.
702 2011-05-21 04:38:57 <Diablo-D3> with pps, its a flat 50/current diff
703 2011-05-21 04:39:02 <erbs> it could all be a lie
704 2011-05-21 04:39:03 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: shares are diff 1 blocks
705 2011-05-21 04:39:05 <erbs> no one knows for sure
706 2011-05-21 04:39:16 <jfksir> oh i guess i answered the wrong qn there :/
707 2011-05-21 04:39:26 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: they're proven exactly the same way normal blocks are
708 2011-05-21 04:39:41 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: the pool just changes the requested diff value on the getwork response
709 2011-05-21 04:40:05 <XX01XX> Huh... seems like that would spew a bunch of crap across the network
710 2011-05-21 04:40:11 <Diablo-D3> it does
711 2011-05-21 04:40:16 <erbs> the algorithm could be: payout = your_shares / (total_shares * fudge_factor) * total_payout
712 2011-05-21 04:40:36 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: pools are being overloaded with the number of "blocks" found
713 2011-05-21 04:40:58 matrix has quit (Quit: Page closed)
714 2011-05-21 04:40:59 <XX01XX> How about having people save their most difficult block created in a given blk interval?
715 2011-05-21 04:41:09 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: its not a new network connection because miners pool connections for reuse typically (even though bitcoind itself doesnt support this)
716 2011-05-21 04:41:10 <erbs> that would be good
717 2011-05-21 04:41:13 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: cant
718 2011-05-21 04:41:18 <XX01XX> why?
719 2011-05-21 04:41:20 <Diablo-D3> a miner is given the header for a block
720 2011-05-21 04:41:26 <Diablo-D3> you cant reverse engineer the block
721 2011-05-21 04:41:34 sonihr has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.17/20110420140830])
722 2011-05-21 04:41:42 <XX01XX> Eh?
723 2011-05-21 04:41:47 <Diablo-D3> the block header contains, among other things, a merkle hash of the list of transactions in the block
724 2011-05-21 04:42:06 <Diablo-D3> the first tx on that list is a gen tx sending 50 btc to the pool.
725 2011-05-21 04:42:13 <jfksir> ahh i got it...had cygwin earlier in my path
726 2011-05-21 04:42:15 <vorlov> Diablo-D3: so let me get it right... if im running it right now at 400mhash (900clock and 300memory) and i can maintain a decent temp (<85c) with my fan at about 60-75... thats alright?
727 2011-05-21 04:42:17 <jfksir> building fine now
728 2011-05-21 04:42:22 <vorlov> or am i gonna fry the card leaving it like that?
729 2011-05-21 04:42:25 <XX01XX> No, I mean when a BLK announcement goes out, everyone turns in their best hash for that particular block... and then starts hashing on the new block.
730 2011-05-21 04:42:26 F4C3 has joined
731 2011-05-21 04:42:32 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: you shouldnt hit vrm max at 85c, but like I said, some cards suck there
732 2011-05-21 04:42:35 <XX01XX> Rahterh than spewing Diff 1 BLKs constantly
733 2011-05-21 04:42:42 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: but yes, the lower your temp, the more abuse you can give it
734 2011-05-21 04:42:48 <vorlov> wonderful
735 2011-05-21 04:42:55 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: cant be done
736 2011-05-21 04:42:58 <vorlov> Diablo-D3: how do i discover what and am i hitting vrm max?
737 2011-05-21 04:43:00 <XX01XX> Why not?
738 2011-05-21 04:43:15 <erbs> good idea XX01XX
739 2011-05-21 04:43:16 <Diablo-D3> vorlov: you can only check VRM temps in windows on cards that support it
740 2011-05-21 04:43:23 <vorlov> i c
741 2011-05-21 04:43:28 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: because its a proof of actual work in this case
742 2011-05-21 04:43:30 <XX01XX> If they can send in Diff 1 blks they can save blks and send in their blk with the highest difficulty
743 2011-05-21 04:43:39 <vorlov> well currently card tells me 59.50C at 60% fan
744 2011-05-21 04:43:41 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: it needs to be a consistent low goal for all users
745 2011-05-21 04:43:42 <vorlov> and im getting 400mhash out of it
746 2011-05-21 04:43:48 <vorlov> am in the "safe zone"?
747 2011-05-21 04:43:58 <jfksir> 60c is fine
748 2011-05-21 04:44:02 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: uh, dude, I just explained to you why they cannot withhold high difficiulty blocks
749 2011-05-21 04:44:34 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: they CANNOT be submitted by the miner on it's own... the miner is NOT given the whole block and the miner cant change the block even if he wanted to
750 2011-05-21 04:44:37 <jfksir> what i don't get is what prevents pool participants from just saying they are doing work
751 2011-05-21 04:44:50 <XX01XX> diablo.. someone with little hash power would turn in a 1 diff block because that's all they could find in 10 minutes... someone with more hash power could find something more difficult.
752 2011-05-21 04:44:52 <jfksir> like, can' i write a program that just pretends to mine in a large pool
753 2011-05-21 04:44:55 <XX01XX> statistically speaking
754 2011-05-21 04:45:12 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: you mean just require different diffs for more powerful users? I plan on doing that
755 2011-05-21 04:45:29 <erbs> is Diablo-D3 on the crack
756 2011-05-21 04:45:42 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: you can say, make everyone do diff 10 blocks
757 2011-05-21 04:45:45 Spenvo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
758 2011-05-21 04:46:02 <XX01XX> Diablo... not REQUIRE... let people hash normally, and they keep their most difficult block saved... when a BLK announcment goes out they send in their most difficult block.
759 2011-05-21 04:46:05 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: btw, the pool software solves those diff 1 blocks
760 2011-05-21 04:46:29 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: it knows what headers it sent you, and it also does sha256(sha256()) on the header your miner sent back
761 2011-05-21 04:46:39 <XX01XX> then you award share based on the difficulty of the blocks turned in.
762 2011-05-21 04:46:40 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: you cant lie precisesly by the same rules that make bitcoin function
763 2011-05-21 04:46:55 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: thats nonsensical
764 2011-05-21 04:47:09 <jfksir> huh?
765 2011-05-21 04:47:11 <XX01XX> How so?
766 2011-05-21 04:47:17 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: it makes mining far more variable for one
767 2011-05-21 04:47:40 <Diablo-D3> pool mining is supposed to make the btc output of mining more smooth for small users
768 2011-05-21 04:47:41 <jfksir> how could the pool managing software confirm i did in fact hash all the work it gave me?
769 2011-05-21 04:47:49 <jfksir> wouldn't it have to also have done that work?
770 2011-05-21 04:47:51 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: do you understand how mining works?
771 2011-05-21 04:48:15 <XX01XX> Statistically it should level out on a timeline, no?
772 2011-05-21 04:48:22 <sm00th> how much harder is difficulty 2 compared to difficulty 1?
773 2011-05-21 04:48:23 <jfksir> yes...take a number from network, make some transactions, figure out how to hash that so it start with a certain pattern
774 2011-05-21 04:48:26 <jfksir> something like that
775 2011-05-21 04:48:35 <x6763> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
776 2011-05-21 04:48:42 <jfksir> i don't mean fooling the network
777 2011-05-21 04:48:48 <jfksir> i just mean fooling the pool oprator
778 2011-05-21 04:49:03 <jfksir> what prevents me from just pretending
779 2011-05-21 04:49:09 <jfksir> and never finding a solution'
780 2011-05-21 04:49:28 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: kind of. you're given a header, you can change exactly one number in it, and you keep guessing until you either run out of numbers or you find a share of appropriate diff
781 2011-05-21 04:49:38 transpi has joined
782 2011-05-21 04:49:44 <sm00th> x6763 ty
783 2011-05-21 04:49:48 <sm00th> its linear thats what i thougbht
784 2011-05-21 04:49:53 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: that is at least 2^33 attempts between diff 1 blocks on average
785 2011-05-21 04:50:04 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: thats over 4 billion
786 2011-05-21 04:50:04 <jfksir> right...and i get that
787 2011-05-21 04:50:16 <Diablo-D3> to VERIFY it, you only need to do it _once_.
788 2011-05-21 04:50:17 <jfksir> but when i mine in deepbit, i never find a block
789 2011-05-21 04:50:20 <jfksir> or i haven't yet
790 2011-05-21 04:50:25 <sm00th> so its actually not that hard to find difficulty 2, 3, etc. blocks
791 2011-05-21 04:50:29 <jfksir> so how does it verify i'm doing anything at all?
792 2011-05-21 04:50:31 <sm00th> I think XX01XX's idea is pretty good
793 2011-05-21 04:50:45 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: diff ratings are how many diff 1 blocks does it take to do this
794 2011-05-21 04:51:05 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: we're at like 150k diff... 1 in 150k diff 1s will be a canidate for the next block
795 2011-05-21 04:51:25 <Diablo-D3> or 150k * 2^33 hash attempts
796 2011-05-21 04:51:28 <XX01XX> ;;bc,stats
797 2011-05-21 04:51:30 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125442 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1565 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 21 hours, 58 minutes, and 25 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 335707.62753285
798 2011-05-21 04:51:38 <sm00th> right, so if somone is able to find a difficulty 1 block in a round, they'll probably find some 2s, 3s, etc.
799 2011-05-21 04:51:41 <Diablo-D3> jesus, we're that high already?
800 2011-05-21 04:51:46 <Diablo-D3> s/150k/244k/
801 2011-05-21 04:51:53 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: yes.
802 2011-05-21 04:51:56 <sm00th> maybe not every single round, but if you find 1 diff1 per round, you'll find a few diff2s per hour
803 2011-05-21 04:52:08 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: remember how fast your card is
804 2011-05-21 04:52:12 <jfksir> hmm i think i know what they must do
805 2011-05-21 04:52:23 <sm00th> so the mining payouts based on max difficulty found would smooth out pretty fast
806 2011-05-21 04:52:23 <Diablo-D3> it takes my 5850 doing 300mhash about 12 and a half minutes to find 50 shares.
807 2011-05-21 04:52:35 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: well, it would lopside payout
808 2011-05-21 04:52:37 has joined
809 2011-05-21 04:52:38 <jfksir> when i'm looking for the really difficult block, i probably remember the hardest solution i've found so far
810 2011-05-21 04:52:46 <Diablo-D3> it'd basically count it as multiple shares
811 2011-05-21 04:52:51 <jfksir> and send that up to the pool operator as proof of work
812 2011-05-21 04:52:57 <jfksir> and it can verify in a single hash
813 2011-05-21 04:52:57 <XX01XX> jfksir... that's what I've been saying
814 2011-05-21 04:53:04 <transpi> hmmm. sell or hold?
815 2011-05-21 04:53:10 <Diablo-D3> except thats NOT proof of work in the pool sense
816 2011-05-21 04:53:12 <sm00th> right, but on average you only need to find 2 shares to find a difficulty 2
817 2011-05-21 04:53:14 <XX01XX> transpi... sell, they're on another slump
818 2011-05-21 04:53:20 <jfksir> XX01XX: ok what you were sayign sounded like you were just talking about the network and not my pool
819 2011-05-21 04:53:24 <transpi> thanks
820 2011-05-21 04:53:30 <Diablo-D3> what if I find 500 diff 1 blocks and not a diff 2?
821 2011-05-21 04:53:35 <jfksir> i didn't understand
822 2011-05-21 04:53:40 <Diablo-D3> I tell the pool, under XX01XX's scheme, 1.
823 2011-05-21 04:53:42 <sm00th> so if you can submit a difficulty 2, thats (statically speaking) proof-of-work that you have done two shares
824 2011-05-21 04:53:45 <Diablo-D3> how am I winning here?
825 2011-05-21 04:53:45 amiller has quit (Quit: Leaving)
826 2011-05-21 04:53:59 <Diablo-D3> or what if I did 0 work and got a diff 100k share?
827 2011-05-21 04:54:04 <Diablo-D3> do I get 100k shares here?
828 2011-05-21 04:54:05 <sm00th> if you can submit a difficulty 3, thats POW that you did 4 shares
829 2011-05-21 04:54:13 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: no, thats proof of 3
830 2011-05-21 04:54:17 <sm00th> right, sorry
831 2011-05-21 04:54:19 <sm00th> typo
832 2011-05-21 04:54:26 <erbs> it avgs out, even if each individual payout isn't exactly the amt of work you did
833 2011-05-21 04:54:29 <sm00th> but you dont actually need the network traffic for all 3
834 2011-05-21 04:54:35 <Diablo-D3> but like I said, I did 2^33 hashes total, and found a diff 100k
835 2011-05-21 04:54:41 <Diablo-D3> does that prove I did 100k?
836 2011-05-21 04:54:43 <Diablo-D3> no
837 2011-05-21 04:54:43 <Diablo-D3> it doesnt
838 2011-05-21 04:54:45 <jfksir> but the pool operator only wants the block solution, right?
839 2011-05-21 04:54:47 <Diablo-D3> it proves I did 1.
840 2011-05-21 04:54:56 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
841 2011-05-21 04:54:59 <jfksir> like, if he trusted everyone
842 2011-05-21 04:54:59 <sm00th> statistically its a lot more than 1
843 2011-05-21 04:55:00 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: he wants all solutions above the specified diff
844 2011-05-21 04:55:05 <Diablo-D3> all pools currently do 1.
845 2011-05-21 04:55:09 <XX01XX> Sure... but that's not likely to happen consistently for a given user unless they have the hardware for it.
846 2011-05-21 04:55:26 <Diablo-D3> the whole entire point of pools is supposed to smooth out payments.
847 2011-05-21 04:55:34 _Netsniper_ has joined
848 2011-05-21 04:55:46 <XX01XX> Sure... and most of the time your proof-of-work would be representative.
849 2011-05-21 04:55:53 <XX01XX> roughly speaking
850 2011-05-21 04:55:58 <Diablo-D3> imo its not
851 2011-05-21 04:56:22 <sm00th> lol, XX01XX i think we need to give up
852 2011-05-21 04:56:27 <erbs> without auditing your work is useless anyway
853 2011-05-21 04:56:36 <sm00th> XX01XX but I think its a good idea
854 2011-05-21 04:56:52 <jfksir> man this wx thing takes forever to build
855 2011-05-21 04:56:53 <sm00th> i have a bunch of ideas for a pool, but no time to work on it...would love to use that one though
856 2011-05-21 04:56:55 <erbs> so you have to pick the right difficulty level to make it possible for mutual auditing
857 2011-05-21 04:58:09 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-69-208-139-82.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
858 2011-05-21 04:58:14 <sm00th> btw i think its best if you send the hardest difficulty found right away
859 2011-05-21 04:58:14 kluge has joined
860 2011-05-21 04:58:29 <sm00th> otherwise you have to deal with synchronizing it at the end
861 2011-05-21 04:58:42 <jfksir> someone needs to figure out how to make gcc use ati cards to speed up compilation
862 2011-05-21 04:59:03 <erbs> dudesup
863 2011-05-21 04:59:14 <sm00th> XX01XX you see what I mean?
864 2011-05-21 04:59:17 <transpi> Is there a vairable to make the difficulty easier? I have a netbook and I have been mining for 5 days with nothing.
865 2011-05-21 04:59:29 <sm00th> transpi, CPU mining is worthless
866 2011-05-21 04:59:38 <sm00th> but if you want to play with it, you need to join a pool
867 2011-05-21 04:59:54 <XX01XX> sm00th... eh... you'd still get a burst of traffic at a new interval because everyone would announce their first block as their hardest.
868 2011-05-21 05:00:07 <XX01XX> and then more each time they found a new one.
869 2011-05-21 05:00:11 <sm00th> okay, you could spaces those out
870 2011-05-21 05:00:34 <sm00th> the new ones would be much slower, factor of 2 at each level
871 2011-05-21 05:00:46 <erbs> pool skimming is probably very common
872 2011-05-21 05:00:54 <erbs> the financial incentive is huge
873 2011-05-21 05:01:03 <transpi> for mining?
874 2011-05-21 05:01:19 <sm00th> transpi, yes join a pool for mining
875 2011-05-21 05:01:23 <transpi> I have been mining for 5 days with nothing!
876 2011-05-21 05:01:38 <sm00th> http://eligius.st
877 2011-05-21 05:01:39 <transpi> full power 24-7
878 2011-05-21 05:01:52 <XX01XX> transpi... how many khash ?
879 2011-05-21 05:02:03 <transpi> what is a kash?
880 2011-05-21 05:02:04 <sm00th> you're still not going to get much but at least you will see something happening
881 2011-05-21 05:02:10 <erbs> brosto
882 2011-05-21 05:02:24 <XX01XX> transpi... in the lower left corner is a number...
883 2011-05-21 05:02:28 <transpi> oh
884 2011-05-21 05:02:31 <XX01XX> khash/s
885 2011-05-21 05:02:37 <XX01XX> What is it?
886 2011-05-21 05:02:38 <transpi> It is a acer netbook?!
887 2011-05-21 05:02:57 <XX01XX> OF THE BITCOIN WINDOW
888 2011-05-21 05:03:01 <sm00th> XX01XX you can have pool members delay their first submission some random time over the first 2 minutes
889 2011-05-21 05:03:03 <transpi> oh sorry
890 2011-05-21 05:03:06 <transpi> wait
891 2011-05-21 05:03:23 <transpi> 177
892 2011-05-21 05:03:24 <Namegduf> transpi: Mining on a netbook will not be worth the electricity
893 2011-05-21 05:03:30 <transpi> what?
894 2011-05-21 05:03:34 <sm00th> Namegduf of course not
895 2011-05-21 05:03:35 <XX01XX> ;;bc,calc 177
896 2011-05-21 05:03:36 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 177 Khps, given current difficulty of 244139.48158254 , is 187 years, 44 weeks, 3 days, 7 hours, 47 minutes, and 26 seconds
897 2011-05-21 05:03:41 <sm00th> but he's doing it for fun
898 2011-05-21 05:03:44 <transpi> I have been doing this for 5 days straight
899 2011-05-21 05:03:49 <Diablo-D3> [12:50:05] <erbs> without auditing your work is useless anyway
900 2011-05-21 05:03:49 <jfksir> apparnetly you need perl 5 installed to build bitcoin
901 2011-05-21 05:03:50 <Diablo-D3> I agree
902 2011-05-21 05:03:51 <XX01XX> transpi... keep mining for another two centuries and you'll get your bitcoins
903 2011-05-21 05:03:52 <transpi> nothing
904 2011-05-21 05:03:53 <transpi> 0.000
905 2011-05-21 05:03:59 <jfksir> would be nice if that was mentioned in the windows build readme
906 2011-05-21 05:04:05 <Diablo-D3> essentially XX01XX's method is random payout
907 2011-05-21 05:04:10 <Namegduf> transpi: That's not at alls surprising.
908 2011-05-21 05:04:12 <sm00th> he might get lucky
909 2011-05-21 05:04:18 <Diablo-D3> if I wanted random payout, I'd solo mine
910 2011-05-21 05:04:23 <transpi> when will it be a single bit coin?
911 2011-05-21 05:04:23 <sm00th> true story: with 500Mh I got two blocks in my first two days
912 2011-05-21 05:04:27 <transpi> 2 weeks?
913 2011-05-21 05:04:29 <Namegduf> At 150MH/s, it's 11 weeks.
914 2011-05-21 05:04:32 <Namegduf> At... what?
915 2011-05-21 05:04:34 <transpi> ok
916 2011-05-21 05:04:38 <Namegduf> Under 1MH/s
917 2011-05-21 05:04:42 <transpi> 177k
918 2011-05-21 05:04:49 <Namegduf> 177K
919 2011-05-21 05:04:52 <transpi> that is fast no?
920 2011-05-21 05:04:55 <XX01XX> Diablo-D3... On a short timescale, sure. On a long timescale it balances out.
921 2011-05-21 05:04:57 <Namegduf> No, god no.
922 2011-05-21 05:05:06 <transpi> it is a netbook by acer...
923 2011-05-21 05:05:16 <XX01XX> Most people will report a fair share most of the time.
924 2011-05-21 05:05:17 <transpi> it loads firefox pretty quickly
925 2011-05-21 05:05:25 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 what about proportional payout? that's still random right?
926 2011-05-21 05:05:28 <Namegduf> transpi: It will take you, on average, 179 years
927 2011-05-21 05:05:31 <Namegduf> To generate a block
928 2011-05-21 05:05:35 <transpi> oh no
929 2011-05-21 05:05:49 <transpi> i wont even have this netbook in 179 years
930 2011-05-21 05:05:49 <Namegduf> 1000 times yours is not really "good"
931 2011-05-21 05:05:52 <Namegduf> It's a netbook
932 2011-05-21 05:05:53 <sm00th> transpi just go to the site I told you and set that up
933 2011-05-21 05:05:58 <Namegduf> Netbooks are not known for speed
934 2011-05-21 05:06:05 <transpi> 179 years = 1 bit coin?
935 2011-05-21 05:06:09 <sm00th> you will get some tiny fraction of a bitcoin pretty fast
936 2011-05-21 05:06:16 <transpi> ok
937 2011-05-21 05:06:19 <transpi> wow
938 2011-05-21 05:06:23 kluge has quit (Changing host)
939 2011-05-21 05:06:23 kluge has joined
940 2011-05-21 05:06:24 <Namegduf> 50, but you get them in a block of 50 and nothing until then.
941 2011-05-21 05:06:30 <sm00th> transpi, no its 187 years for 50 BTC
942 2011-05-21 05:06:39 <XX01XX> sm00th... you could have people delay reporting just their hardest block, too and spread the traffic out.
943 2011-05-21 05:06:43 <jfksir> and then only if you're not unlucky
944 2011-05-21 05:07:03 <transpi> Where is the button to make it mine for a netbook?
945 2011-05-21 05:07:06 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: no
946 2011-05-21 05:07:09 <transpi> to make it easier?!
947 2011-05-21 05:07:11 <sm00th> XX01XX well, how do you know it was done in time?
948 2011-05-21 05:07:13 <Diablo-D3> its just shares since last block find
949 2011-05-21 05:07:15 <Namegduf> transpi: There is no way to "make it easier"
950 2011-05-21 05:07:30 <Namegduf> The difficulty is shared, globally, and there's no way it can be easier for anyone.
951 2011-05-21 05:07:34 <transpi> Sorry, the difficulty rating ranges
952 2011-05-21 05:07:35 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 how long does it take to find a block?
953 2011-05-21 05:07:43 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: depends on how big the pool is
954 2011-05-21 05:07:46 <Namegduf> transpi: That's nothing different.
955 2011-05-21 05:07:49 <Diablo-D3> but the bigger the pool the smoother it is
956 2011-05-21 05:08:02 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 regardless of the size of the block, its still random
957 2011-05-21 05:08:03 <XX01XX> smooth.... the txns. If the share blk they're turning in and the BLK announced aren't similar you know they've been hashing an old block
958 2011-05-21 05:08:09 <sm00th> sorry size of POOL
959 2011-05-21 05:08:53 <transpi> I have a dell pentium 4 will that work better?
960 2011-05-21 05:09:00 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: every 10 minutes on average isnt random
961 2011-05-21 05:09:13 <Namegduf> transpi: CPU mining will not get you a significant amount in any reasonable length of time.
962 2011-05-21 05:09:19 <XX01XX> every 10 minutes "on average" is just as random as the crap you've been complaining about
963 2011-05-21 05:09:21 <sm00th> XX01XX any work done after someone else finds the block is worthless (and will be gamed)
964 2011-05-21 05:09:21 <Diablo-D3> transpi: they dont make cpus fast enough
965 2011-05-21 05:09:22 _Netsniper_ is now known as Netsniper
966 2011-05-21 05:09:29 <transpi> ok
967 2011-05-21 05:09:38 <Namegduf> A fairly decent graphics card will give you about 4 a week
968 2011-05-21 05:09:38 <XX01XX> I've seen block intervals as short as a few seconds
969 2011-05-21 05:09:43 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 no individual pool finds a block every 10 minutes
970 2011-05-21 05:09:45 <Namegduf> If it's ATI
971 2011-05-21 05:09:46 <Diablo-D3> yes, and Ive seen a 4 hour block
972 2011-05-21 05:09:57 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: no, but deepbit I swear is at 20 minutes now
973 2011-05-21 05:10:08 <Namegduf> transpi: You just can't get free money easily, sorry.
974 2011-05-21 05:10:16 <XX01XX> sm00th... then you'd have to require people to do their SHR anouncement as soon as they recieved the BLK announcement.
975 2011-05-21 05:10:17 <sm00th> Diablo-D3, sure, and deepbit is ruining bitcoin
976 2011-05-21 05:10:20 aschmitz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
977 2011-05-21 05:10:26 <transpi> Wait what kind of laptop do you use to do this?
978 2011-05-21 05:10:29 <erbs> sup dudeachoo
979 2011-05-21 05:10:29 <sm00th> XX01XX: then you get the flood of traffic
980 2011-05-21 05:10:30 * Diablo-D3 's troll alert goes off
981 2011-05-21 05:10:41 <XX01XX> Which would cause a burst of traffic... but it probably isn't any worse than having a mega miner spew Diff1's at you
982 2011-05-21 05:10:46 <Diablo-D3> transpi: do NOT mine with a laptop
983 2011-05-21 05:11:11 <sm00th> XX01XX no but its worse than better solutions
984 2011-05-21 05:11:17 <jfksir> transpi: probably is fine if you're not paying the power bill, but don't expect much
985 2011-05-21 05:11:32 <sm00th> XX01XX actually it may be worse than diff 1s, at least those are random, somewhat
986 2011-05-21 05:11:35 <jfksir> you need an ATI graphics card for any serious results
987 2011-05-21 05:11:44 <erbs> just make the min share diff-2's, boom, half the traffic
988 2011-05-21 05:12:07 <Diablo-D3> erbs: yes but
989 2011-05-21 05:12:11 <Diablo-D3> I'd go straight to 8 I think
990 2011-05-21 05:12:15 <Diablo-D3> er
991 2011-05-21 05:12:16 <Diablo-D3> 16
992 2011-05-21 05:12:17 <sm00th> erbs: true, or adjust the difficulty to the worker
993 2011-05-21 05:12:35 <sm00th> erbs: target getting a few results per block on average
994 2011-05-21 05:12:40 <XX01XX> well, we've got enough crypto laying around... make them sign it when they get the BLK announcement.
995 2011-05-21 05:12:41 <Diablo-D3> the hex text currently looks like eight 0s, four Fs, and the rest 0s
996 2011-05-21 05:12:56 <Diablo-D3> diff 16 just makes that 9 0s.
997 2011-05-21 05:14:08 <sm00th> XX01XX how does that prove they had done the work before the block announcement? it only proves they sent the reply after (which is obvious)
998 2011-05-21 05:14:48 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, did you see all the people on the forum freaking out about some guy talking about fpgas?
999 2011-05-21 05:14:54 <XX01XX> sm00th... signatures usually incorporate the time/date it was signed, no?
1000 2011-05-21 05:14:58 <XX01XX> bah, that could be faked...
1001 2011-05-21 05:15:05 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: dude, Ive been laughing at fpgas for like 9 months now
1002 2011-05-21 05:15:07 <sm00th> XX01XX :)
1003 2011-05-21 05:15:08 <Diablo-D3> maybe a whole year
1004 2011-05-21 05:15:25 <Diablo-D3> BUT IT USES 2W.... it costs like $200+ you fucking dipshit
1005 2011-05-21 05:15:33 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, it's like people dont understand the size of an unrolled sha256 operation or something
1006 2011-05-21 05:15:48 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: its not hard, just look at my fucking miner of goddamned doom
1007 2011-05-21 05:15:55 <sm00th> The FPGA people don't understand that there are always going to be people with free electricity
1008 2011-05-21 05:16:04 <sm00th> 2W is too much
1009 2011-05-21 05:16:13 <sm00th> if you are competing on energy costs
1010 2011-05-21 05:16:23 <Diablo-D3> the FPGA people dont understand that there is always going to be a massively parallel DSP that does the task a shitload faster
1011 2011-05-21 05:16:32 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, no i meant the on chip size, an unrolled sha256 takes up a shit ton of fpga space...
1012 2011-05-21 05:16:43 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yeah but you can get bigger fpgas
1013 2011-05-21 05:16:54 <sm00th> well, yeah for more $$
1014 2011-05-21 05:16:55 <phantomcircuit> yeah but they cost a lot more than 200USD
1015 2011-05-21 05:16:56 <phantomcircuit> :P
1016 2011-05-21 05:16:58 <Diablo-D3> fpgas win massively on power efficiency.... but rape you on costs
1017 2011-05-21 05:17:05 <sm00th> power is free
1018 2011-05-21 05:17:05 <Diablo-D3> even what Art did is basically bullshit
1019 2011-05-21 05:17:27 <sm00th> Art has some alternate agenda
1020 2011-05-21 05:17:34 <Diablo-D3> structured ASICs cost too much (although are a shitload cheaper than FPGAs, thats for sure)
1021 2011-05-21 05:17:37 <Namegduf> You mean he works for the CIA?
1022 2011-05-21 05:17:38 <Namegduf> Of course
1023 2011-05-21 05:17:41 <Namegduf> It all makes sense now
1024 2011-05-21 05:17:49 <Diablo-D3> I mean, if I wanted to beat bitcoin
1025 2011-05-21 05:17:50 <sm00th> No I don't mean that
1026 2011-05-21 05:17:56 <Namegduf> (You can say that as an alternative to an actual argument for how it makes sense)
1027 2011-05-21 05:18:00 <Namegduf> (It works)
1028 2011-05-21 05:18:04 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you'd only need like a million bucks
1029 2011-05-21 05:18:09 <Diablo-D3> I'd give Art several million dollars and have him go make shit for like 45 or 65nm, not structured
1030 2011-05-21 05:18:13 <XX01XX> sm00th... I suppose you'd have to see in practice if people could consistently inflate their share with another two minutes of hashing after the BLK... after all they're losing time to contribute a share to the next block, anyway...
1031 2011-05-21 05:18:13 <phantomcircuit> which for financial institutions is like nothing
1032 2011-05-21 05:18:23 <Diablo-D3> and then have him run off like a million cores
1033 2011-05-21 05:18:40 <sm00th> XX01XX, yes but they'd know whether the previous block paid off or not
1034 2011-05-21 05:18:45 sonihr has joined
1035 2011-05-21 05:18:46 <Diablo-D3> it'd merely double the hash power of bitcoi.
1036 2011-05-21 05:18:49 <Diablo-D3> because
1037 2011-05-21 05:18:50 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, sure but you'd have chinese competitiors in a matter of days ;)
1038 2011-05-21 05:18:54 <Diablo-D3> GPUs still fucking win here
1039 2011-05-21 05:18:56 transpi has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1040 2011-05-21 05:19:08 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: so what
1041 2011-05-21 05:19:11 <Diablo-D3> let them
1042 2011-05-21 05:19:23 <sm00th> GPUs are going to get quite a bit more power efficient anyway
1043 2011-05-21 05:19:23 <XX01XX> sm00th... I don't understand why that's significant...
1044 2011-05-21 05:19:37 <Diablo-D3> 5xxx is about 2mhash/watt
1045 2011-05-21 05:19:39 <sm00th> XX01XX because you know whether to work on the current block or work on "faking" the previoius block
1046 2011-05-21 05:19:50 <XX01XX> sm00th... you'd send in SHR after each BLK regardless of who won it...
1047 2011-05-21 05:19:55 <Diablo-D3> art's structred asics are like 10mhash/watt
1048 2011-05-21 05:20:10 <Diablo-D3> and you measure efficiency in magnitudes to get useful comparisons
1049 2011-05-21 05:20:20 <sm00th> XX01XX: but would you keep trying to improve your result on the previous block or not?
1050 2011-05-21 05:20:26 <Diablo-D3> *structured
1051 2011-05-21 05:20:49 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, only? i thought he had like 2Ghash/s running on like 10W
1052 2011-05-21 05:21:15 <Diablo-D3> no
1053 2011-05-21 05:21:23 <XX01XX> sm00th... You'd have a window to submit the SHR... I suppose you could keep hashing on a previous block... but you're cannibalizing your time to hash ont he next block.
1054 2011-05-21 05:21:45 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: each chip I think is like 4w, and it does like a hundred mhash (I forget the exact numbers)
1055 2011-05-21 05:21:57 <sm00th> XX01XX: if the your pool found the previous block, then you want to try to increase your share of it. its like pool hopping but worse
1056 2011-05-21 05:22:13 <sm00th> I'm going with the maximize h/$ theory
1057 2011-05-21 05:22:20 <sm00th> power is free
1058 2011-05-21 05:22:21 <Diablo-D3> btw, XX01XX's idea fails for one reason
1059 2011-05-21 05:22:23 <XX01XX> sm00th... nah, the SHR keep track whether your pool has won the block or not.
1060 2011-05-21 05:22:24 <Diablo-D3> its difficult to implement well
1061 2011-05-21 05:22:30 <Diablo-D3> simplicity is king.
1062 2011-05-21 05:23:16 <sm00th> XX01XX I'm sorry I haven't worked with the code, so I don't know what SHR means
1063 2011-05-21 05:23:38 <Diablo-D3> I think he means share
1064 2011-05-21 05:23:50 aschmitz has joined
1065 2011-05-21 05:23:54 <XX01XX> Sorry... the hardest block you've found in a given interval.
1066 2011-05-21 05:24:08 <sm00th> but if its something you have to send back after the block, you can decide after the fact whether to try to inflate it
1067 2011-05-21 05:24:12 <sm00th> that's no good
1068 2011-05-21 05:24:20 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: no, now that you cant do
1069 2011-05-21 05:24:22 <XX01XX> You can't inflate it unless you can do the hashing
1070 2011-05-21 05:24:27 <Diablo-D3> the block still has to be provable
1071 2011-05-21 05:24:32 <sm00th> XX01XX: right, you keep going
1072 2011-05-21 05:24:36 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX's plan just fails
1073 2011-05-21 05:24:48 <Diablo-D3> I sure as hell wont implement it, and I have the most used miner ever.
1074 2011-05-21 05:24:49 <sm00th> for whatever the window is
1075 2011-05-21 05:25:20 <sm00th> I don't see how it fails though
1076 2011-05-21 05:25:23 <XX01XX> sm00th... you could, but that cannibalizes your share of the next block
1077 2011-05-21 05:25:44 <sm00th> XX01XX: my point is, the next block might be worthless, the previous block is known not to be
1078 2011-05-21 05:25:47 <Diablo-D3> theres no such thing as a free lunch, people.
1079 2011-05-21 05:26:17 <XX01XX> sm00th... this is to keep track of your pool contribution... it's tracked whether the pool you're in finds the block or not.
1080 2011-05-21 05:26:45 <sm00th> Let's say your pool found the last block after 1 block. shares in that block are worth a LOT
1081 2011-05-21 05:27:11 <sm00th> so you have an incentive to keep going on that block, rather than work on the next one which is worth less. even for deepbit they're worth 50% on average
1082 2011-05-21 05:27:15 <sm00th> for any other pool its a lot less
1083 2011-05-21 05:27:41 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 I don't understand why it fails
1084 2011-05-21 05:28:09 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: why his idea fails?
1085 2011-05-21 05:28:23 <Diablo-D3> because he basically requires modification to miner software that does not improve the end user experience
1086 2011-05-21 05:28:29 <Diablo-D3> its dead in the water right there and then
1087 2011-05-21 05:28:47 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1088 2011-05-21 05:28:47 <sm00th> It reduces the end user's network usage for mining, that's worth something
1089 2011-05-21 05:28:59 <XX01XX> Ah... I see what you're saying. I suppose it depends how much you could inflate your share by continuing to mine during the window
1090 2011-05-21 05:29:10 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: yeah, so what? I can change my pool up to diff 16.
1091 2011-05-21 05:29:16 <Diablo-D3> 16 times reduction.
1092 2011-05-21 05:29:27 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 fair enough
1093 2011-05-21 05:29:30 <XX01XX> ;;bc,calcd 700 16
1094 2011-05-21 05:29:31 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 700 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 16, is 1 day, 3 hours, 16 minutes, and 10 seconds
1095 2011-05-21 05:29:43 <Diablo-D3> and the big problem isnt network usage on the user side
1096 2011-05-21 05:29:46 <Diablo-D3> its network usage on the pool side
1097 2011-05-21 05:29:58 <Diablo-D3> deepbit is effectively under a constant ddos
1098 2011-05-21 05:30:07 <Diablo-D3> not from some evil hacker, but from all the users mining
1099 2011-05-21 05:30:13 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 well again that does improve the user's experience because they'll have less trouble connecting to the pool, etc.
1100 2011-05-21 05:30:23 <Diablo-D3> sm00th: btw
1101 2011-05-21 05:30:28 <Diablo-D3> that doesnt fix the nonce saturation issue
1102 2011-05-21 05:30:40 <Diablo-D3> to fix this shit you need a three fold plan
1103 2011-05-21 05:30:51 <Diablo-D3> 1) stop miners from keep updating their getwork (LP does this)
1104 2011-05-21 05:31:10 <Diablo-D3> 2) stop miners from obsessively sending work (higher diff does this)
1105 2011-05-21 05:31:45 <Diablo-D3> 3) allow miners to also molest the time field to stop nonce saturation (theres a proposal for this)
1106 2011-05-21 05:31:52 <phantomcircuit> 2 could be accomplished with batching the updates aswell
1107 2011-05-21 05:32:14 <phantomcircuit> and 3 is totally doable
1108 2011-05-21 05:32:19 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: technically its already batched
1109 2011-05-21 05:32:26 <Diablo-D3> miners support TCP keepalive
1110 2011-05-21 05:33:06 <Diablo-D3> the cost of opening a new TCP connection is obliterated, everything else is effectively free (or costs the same in true batched)
1111 2011-05-21 05:33:07 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i more the miners knowing the real diff and only sending blocks with the real diff or groups of like 100 shares
1112 2011-05-21 05:33:15 <phantomcircuit> you could compress 100 shares pretty well
1113 2011-05-21 05:33:20 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yes but
1114 2011-05-21 05:33:34 <Diablo-D3> that requires major modifications of miners
1115 2011-05-21 05:33:38 <phantomcircuit> obviously that doesn't work with instant payments
1116 2011-05-21 05:33:45 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yeah im aware
1117 2011-05-21 05:34:02 <Diablo-D3> it also doesnt work with, say, looking into your crystal ball with LP.
1118 2011-05-21 05:34:17 <Diablo-D3> since submitting shares after a block is over is considered rude.
1119 2011-05-21 05:34:49 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1120 2011-05-21 05:35:02 <phantomcircuit> you'd need a grace period for submitting shares after the block has been found
1121 2011-05-21 05:35:09 <jfksir> building boost...last lib then showtime
1122 2011-05-21 05:35:15 <Diablo-D3> its just added complexity without a real gain
1123 2011-05-21 05:35:22 <phantomcircuit> i guess
1124 2011-05-21 05:35:25 <Diablo-D3> if I want 100 less shares, I up diff 100
1125 2011-05-21 05:35:46 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, http://pastebin.com/Ya3604J0
1126 2011-05-21 05:35:47 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1127 2011-05-21 05:35:47 <jfksir> Diablo-D3: do you run one of these pools?
1128 2011-05-21 05:35:58 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: no, but Im writing pool software
1129 2011-05-21 05:36:18 <sm00th> Diablo-D3 why?
1130 2011-05-21 05:36:30 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, that removes a major reason to use pools though, regular payment
1131 2011-05-21 05:36:35 <jfksir> i'm not surprised how well deepbit is doing i haven't had even a single issue
1132 2011-05-21 05:36:49 <jfksir> on bitcoinpool is was a comedy of problems
1133 2011-05-21 05:37:09 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: well, in the past few hours Ive created almost 1200 shares
1134 2011-05-21 05:37:27 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, rofl @ the compile instructions :P
1135 2011-05-21 05:37:28 <Diablo-D3> 1200/16 is still a usefully large number wrt payouts
1136 2011-05-21 05:37:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, yeah i guess
1137 2011-05-21 05:37:55 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, ps use uint32_t from stdint.h
1138 2011-05-21 05:38:16 has joined
1139 2011-05-21 05:38:18 <Diablo-D3> btw, Im not saying my pool with be 100% perfect gold on one day here
1140 2011-05-21 05:38:29 <Diablo-D3> but Im aiming for a slush/deepbit type experience
1141 2011-05-21 05:38:38 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, i know, uint32 is proper, but thats not really a concern for an example
1142 2011-05-21 05:38:41 <_ape> i havent had any complaints about btcmine so far
1143 2011-05-21 05:38:44 <_ape> no fees either
1144 2011-05-21 05:38:52 <_ape> just seems stable as hell
1145 2011-05-21 05:38:53 <Diablo-D3> worst case is I go down in flames a few times
1146 2011-05-21 05:38:56 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, well that code wouldn't work on my system
1147 2011-05-21 05:38:59 <_ape> they probably had a lot earlier on though
1148 2011-05-21 05:38:59 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, so it kind of is
1149 2011-05-21 05:39:27 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, adding a -m32 would fix it
1150 2011-05-21 05:39:57 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1151 2011-05-21 05:40:11 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, im aware ;)
1152 2011-05-21 05:40:13 <pfifo> unless you on like a mips64 os something weird
1153 2011-05-21 05:40:16 F_M_C has quit (Quit: Saindo)
1154 2011-05-21 05:40:18 <erbs> yeah the solution is to put mining into the protocol which i outlined earlier. pretty easy to do and tamper-proof
1155 2011-05-21 05:40:31 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, it would also require me to have the 32 bit glibc installed
1156 2011-05-21 05:40:33 <phantomcircuit> which i dont
1157 2011-05-21 05:40:39 <jfksir> i kind of like the fee
1158 2011-05-21 05:40:47 <jfksir> gives the owner more of an incentive
1159 2011-05-21 05:40:53 <phantomcircuit> erbs, what?
1160 2011-05-21 05:40:57 <jfksir> to make sure it operates %100
1161 2011-05-21 05:41:01 <jfksir> and the means, too
1162 2011-05-21 05:41:10 <erbs> pooling rather
1163 2011-05-21 05:42:07 <pfifo> phantomcircuit, good thing most people who code know about the difference between 32 and 64 bit architectures
1164 2011-05-21 05:42:11 <Namegduf> I'm going to switch away from pool work
1165 2011-05-21 05:42:12 <phantomcircuit> erbs, what protocol?
1166 2011-05-21 05:42:19 <Namegduf> A lottery is more fun
1167 2011-05-21 05:42:20 <phantomcircuit> pfifo, you'd be surprised....
1168 2011-05-21 05:42:25 <Diablo-D3> pfifo: bwhahahaha
1169 2011-05-21 05:42:26 <Diablo-D3> dude
1170 2011-05-21 05:42:37 <phantomcircuit> im going to write an anonymous poker game over tor using bitcoins
1171 2011-05-21 05:42:40 <phantomcircuit> LIKE A BOSS
1172 2011-05-21 05:42:40 <Diablo-D3> most people, including $150k/yr "professionals" fail even at shit like that
1173 2011-05-21 05:42:42 <erbs> jump in the pool, mind the sharks tho
1174 2011-05-21 05:42:46 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: ... goddamnit.
1175 2011-05-21 05:42:58 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, im going to destroy pokerstars.net
1176 2011-05-21 05:42:59 <phantomcircuit> rofl
1177 2011-05-21 05:43:03 <Diablo-D3> that isnt it
1178 2011-05-21 05:43:11 <Diablo-D3> you do realize what I am now forced to do, right?
1179 2011-05-21 05:43:19 <phantomcircuit> implement it yourself?
1180 2011-05-21 05:43:27 <Diablo-D3> no, listen to aformentioned song.
1181 2011-05-21 05:43:32 gsathya has joined
1182 2011-05-21 05:43:36 <phantomcircuit> lolololololoolol
1183 2011-05-21 05:43:51 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, TAKE A SHIT LIKE A BOSS
1184 2011-05-21 05:43:59 <phantomcircuit> GET KILLED LIKE A BOSS
1185 2011-05-21 05:43:59 <pfifo> you better make a iphone/android version too
1186 2011-05-21 05:44:26 amiller has joined
1187 2011-05-21 05:44:31 <_ape> <Namegduf> A lottery is more fun <-- combine them
1188 2011-05-21 05:44:32 <_ape> :P
1189 2011-05-21 05:44:40 <Diablo-D3> fly into the the sun (like a boss)
1190 2011-05-21 05:45:03 <Namegduf> _ape: I was thinking to just switch off the pooling, it's like a lottery.
1191 2011-05-21 05:45:10 <phantomcircuit> shit ill even throw in some awesome crypto shit liek player shuffling
1192 2011-05-21 05:45:15 <XX01XX> ape... y'know... the "hardest block" think for share work provides a bit of both.
1193 2011-05-21 05:45:17 <Namegduf> Rarely a high value payout instead of consistent low reward.
1194 2011-05-21 05:45:19 <phantomcircuit> LIKE IM ON A BOAT MOTHER FUCKA
1195 2011-05-21 05:45:36 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit jizzes in his pants.
1196 2011-05-21 05:45:42 <phantomcircuit> lololol
1197 2011-05-21 05:45:43 <jfksir> oh another qn i had...
1198 2011-05-21 05:45:48 <_ape> yeah
1199 2011-05-21 05:45:55 <_ape> well if you take donations
1200 2011-05-21 05:45:57 <phantomcircuit> also
1201 2011-05-21 05:46:00 <_ape> you could put a % of them towards a lottery pool
1202 2011-05-21 05:46:05 <_ape> which pays out when somebody solves a block or something
1203 2011-05-21 05:46:07 <phantomcircuit> zomg interwebz is so fast here
1204 2011-05-21 05:46:08 <_ape> as extra incentive to donate
1205 2011-05-21 05:46:12 <jfksir> what prevents a worker in a pool from solving a block and taking the 50 BTC for themself?
1206 2011-05-21 05:46:18 <Diablo-D3> ..........
1207 2011-05-21 05:46:20 <_ape> make your shares in the lottery go up with donation %
1208 2011-05-21 05:46:22 <phantomcircuit> my hdd is having trouble keeping up with these torrents
1209 2011-05-21 05:46:22 <phantomcircuit> rofl
1210 2011-05-21 05:46:26 <Diablo-D3> do I have to crowbar people?
1211 2011-05-21 05:46:29 <jfksir> is it that the receiving addrss of the bitpool manager is in the hash?
1212 2011-05-21 05:46:31 <phantomcircuit> jfksir, magical elfs
1213 2011-05-21 05:46:40 <phantomcircuit> jfksir, or do you want a real answer?
1214 2011-05-21 05:46:41 <Diablo-D3> jfksir: I know you were here when I explained this.
1215 2011-05-21 05:46:43 <XX01XX> could have a pool that pays the txn fees to whatever user actually hashed the winning block.
1216 2011-05-21 05:46:52 <_ape> haha
1217 2011-05-21 05:46:57 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, actually you cant
1218 2011-05-21 05:47:06 <phantomcircuit> you can pay them with the next block though
1219 2011-05-21 05:47:08 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: actually you CAN
1220 2011-05-21 05:47:08 <phantomcircuit> LIKE A BOSS
1221 2011-05-21 05:47:10 <jfksir> Diablo-D3: i haven't been watching this whole time
1222 2011-05-21 05:47:15 <Diablo-D3> its just difficult as fuck
1223 2011-05-21 05:47:28 <jfksir> phantomcircuit: and yes, i want the real answer lol
1224 2011-05-21 05:47:28 <Diablo-D3> you'd have to take the block apart inside bitcoin itself
1225 2011-05-21 05:47:44 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, well you already have to account for shares/user, so why not also wins/user
1226 2011-05-21 05:47:59 <_ape> jfksir: its posted on the forum like 100 times
1227 2011-05-21 05:48:03 <_ape> in every pool thread somebody asks
1228 2011-05-21 05:48:09 <_ape> also the logs of this channel probably have it 50 times :X
1229 2011-05-21 05:48:11 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: yes but
1230 2011-05-21 05:48:16 <phantomcircuit> jfksir, because the block the miners in a pool hash contains a generator transaction sending the 50 BTC to the pool
1231 2011-05-21 05:48:22 <Diablo-D3> Im also going to have a dick size measurement system
1232 2011-05-21 05:48:22 <XX01XX> probably a good idea to figure out how to distirbute the fees, as that's going to become the main value as the bounty goes down.
1233 2011-05-21 05:48:25 <jfksir> so...what i said
1234 2011-05-21 05:48:28 <jfksir> ok
1235 2011-05-21 05:48:30 <phantomcircuit> jfksir, yes
1236 2011-05-21 05:48:33 <jfksir> ty
1237 2011-05-21 05:48:41 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, you would lose sir
1238 2011-05-21 05:48:44 <Diablo-D3> seriously, a dick size hall of fame
1239 2011-05-21 05:48:56 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, my cock is significantly over sized for such a white man
1240 2011-05-21 05:48:59 <jfksir> _ape: thanks for being so friendly and helpful
1241 2011-05-21 05:49:07 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: mine is measured in astronomical units.
1242 2011-05-21 05:50:04 <sm00th> What you know as the universe is actually contained within one skin cell of my dick
1243 2011-05-21 05:50:24 <jfksir> heh you know that makes me wonder
1244 2011-05-21 05:50:37 <XX01XX> sm00th... what you know as your dick... is contained within one skin cell of MY dick.
1245 2011-05-21 05:50:38 <Diablo-D3> are planets just the sperm in God's ballsack
1246 2011-05-21 05:50:57 <sm00th> don't worry im ending it all today
1247 2011-05-21 05:51:01 <XX01XX> It's dicks all the way down.
1248 2011-05-21 05:51:03 <jfksir> will we have little molecular biology computers making bitcoin blocks at some point?
1249 2011-05-21 05:51:16 <Diablo-D3> dude
1250 2011-05-21 05:51:21 <Diablo-D3> we'll be kidnapping chinese kids
1251 2011-05-21 05:51:23 <jfksir> maybe the skinn cell of you dick _could_ do hashing
1252 2011-05-21 05:51:25 <Diablo-D3> and plugging them into a miner
1253 2011-05-21 05:51:41 <Diablo-D3> and we'll have tom cruise standing in the background laughing manically
1254 2011-05-21 05:51:46 <sm00th> nah FPGAs gonna take over
1255 2011-05-21 05:51:49 <XX01XX> He does that anyway
1256 2011-05-21 05:51:55 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: true
1257 2011-05-21 05:51:55 <_ape> i'd pay cash money fora dick hasher
1258 2011-05-21 05:52:03 <sm00th> chinese kids can't compete with FPGAs
1259 2011-05-21 05:52:10 <XX01XX> ape... use a cheese grater... same effect
1260 2011-05-21 05:52:11 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, rofl
1261 2011-05-21 05:52:12 <Diablo-D3> _ape: we call those "eletric pencil sharpeners"
1262 2011-05-21 05:52:14 <phantomcircuit> sm00th, RAIST
1263 2011-05-21 05:52:31 <_ape> lol
1264 2011-05-21 05:52:34 <phantomcircuit> lol 3000 KB/s
1265 2011-05-21 05:52:39 <phantomcircuit> I LOVE THIS PLACE
1266 2011-05-21 05:52:45 <jfksir> i dunno seems like eventually craig venter will make a bacteria that does hashing
1267 2011-05-21 05:52:46 <_ape> i actually have an electric pencil sharpener like 2ft from my mining rigs
1268 2011-05-21 05:52:47 <_ape> go figure
1269 2011-05-21 05:52:48 <phantomcircuit> they dont have clean anything
1270 2011-05-21 05:52:54 <phantomcircuit> but they have 3000 KB/s internet
1271 2011-05-21 05:52:56 <phantomcircuit> lololol
1272 2011-05-21 05:53:08 <Diablo-D3> thats only like
1273 2011-05-21 05:53:10 <Diablo-D3> 24mbit/sec
1274 2011-05-21 05:53:35 <Diablo-D3> you can get 1gibt/sec in the bay area.
1275 2011-05-21 05:53:37 <phantomcircuit> i get 3 mbps dsl in san francisco
1276 2011-05-21 05:53:38 <phantomcircuit> so
1277 2011-05-21 05:53:40 <XX01XX> "only"
1278 2011-05-21 05:53:41 <_ape> we need to reprogram rat brains to do hashing
1279 2011-05-21 05:53:45 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: HAH
1280 2011-05-21 05:54:01 <_ape> you cna grow ears on their backs at the same time
1281 2011-05-21 05:54:01 <sm00th> i have a colo box on 1gb connection to every backbone in the universe
1282 2011-05-21 05:54:02 <Diablo-D3> [01:47:12] <Diablo-D3> you can get 1gibt/sec in the bay area.
1283 2011-05-21 05:54:02 <Diablo-D3> [01:47:15] <phantomcircuit> i get 3 mbps dsl in san francisco
1284 2011-05-21 05:54:03 <_ape> double your money
1285 2011-05-21 05:54:03 <Diablo-D3> pwned.
1286 2011-05-21 05:54:05 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, lol you can only get 1 gbps downtown on specific streets in specific buildings
1287 2011-05-21 05:54:24 <phantomcircuit> and it's like $400/month
1288 2011-05-21 05:54:30 <Diablo-D3> hey Namegduf
1289 2011-05-21 05:54:31 <sm00th> phantomcircuit, yes that's what i have
1290 2011-05-21 05:54:37 <jfksir> i wonder if ppl with pet hamsters ever hook their wheels into the power grid
1291 2011-05-21 05:54:46 <Diablo-D3> wasnt nenolod going to move to san francisco just to get gigabit?
1292 2011-05-21 05:54:55 <XX01XX> and you can get 1gbps on your phone in Korea, probably.
1293 2011-05-21 05:55:03 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, that would be a seriously bad move
1294 2011-05-21 05:55:10 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, sf is a monopoly town
1295 2011-05-21 05:55:20 <phantomcircuit> ATT/comcast have split the town in half
1296 2011-05-21 05:55:20 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: its nenolod, he makes like a million dollars a year
1297 2011-05-21 05:55:23 <phantomcircuit> it's a fucking scam
1298 2011-05-21 05:55:32 <Diablo-D3> hes thinking about having a commercial line put into his house
1299 2011-05-21 05:55:32 <XX01XX> jfksir... hope they don't hook it up wrong so it's a motor rather than a generator.
1300 2011-05-21 05:55:33 <_ape> jfksir: http://www.otherpower.com/hamster.html
1301 2011-05-21 05:55:39 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i dont care he'd only have one choice
1302 2011-05-21 05:55:40 <Diablo-D3> just because hes tired of fucking around with dumbass consumer assholes
1303 2011-05-21 05:55:48 <_ape> yeah i've seen that on youtube XX01XX, with added car sound effects
1304 2011-05-21 05:55:51 <erbs> sup brodog
1305 2011-05-21 05:56:18 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, to get ftth in sf for just one person would be about 10 million usd if there is a trunk line close, more like 100 for 99% of people
1306 2011-05-21 05:56:27 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: also, shit dude, they have phones in korea that do starcraft 2
1307 2011-05-21 05:56:46 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, i got a quote from att to extend their trunk 4 blocks and 400 ft over a field and they said 10 million
1308 2011-05-21 05:57:03 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: doesnt surprise me.
1309 2011-05-21 05:57:17 <Diablo-D3> might as well build an apartment inside of a DC
1310 2011-05-21 05:57:19 <phantomcircuit> the alternative is to run a fiber line something like 5 miles
1311 2011-05-21 05:57:20 <phantomcircuit> so yeah
1312 2011-05-21 05:57:33 <XX01XX> Didn't the US give a shitload of money to the comm companies to extend network infrastructure... they just not do that?
1313 2011-05-21 05:57:43 <_ape> yeah
1314 2011-05-21 05:57:45 <_ape> pretty much
1315 2011-05-21 05:57:46 <_ape> lol
1316 2011-05-21 05:57:48 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: in the 90s? yes. did they? yes. is it all black fibre? yes.
1317 2011-05-21 05:57:56 <Diablo-D3> s/black/dark/
1318 2011-05-21 05:58:06 <XX01XX> Why you gotta brine RACE into it, nigga?
1319 2011-05-21 05:58:11 * Diablo-D3 smacks
1320 2011-05-21 05:58:20 <Diablo-D3> dark fibre means its not plugged in
1321 2011-05-21 05:58:21 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, to be fair they spend a ton of money on rural phone service, there are people in bum fuck no where who have phone service that costs the tax payers 20k /year
1322 2011-05-21 05:58:22 <XX01XX> keep that pimp hand strong
1323 2011-05-21 05:58:37 <XX01XX> phantomcircuit... there's a fee in your phone bill for that.
1324 2011-05-21 05:58:40 <_ape> yeah just like water for people living in nevada/arizona
1325 2011-05-21 05:58:43 <XX01XX> "tax payers"
1326 2011-05-21 05:58:43 <_ape> its insanity :P
1327 2011-05-21 05:58:45 <Diablo-D3> there are few people in the world that have a pimp hand stronger than mine
1328 2011-05-21 05:58:53 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, that fee only covers about 1/3rd of the programs costs
1329 2011-05-21 05:59:13 <XX01XX> phantomcircuit... I can't help if it the skim off the other 2/3rd
1330 2011-05-21 05:59:14 Netsniper has joined
1331 2011-05-21 05:59:14 <phantomcircuit> _ape, there are fucking artificial lakes in las vegas
1332 2011-05-21 05:59:16 <Diablo-D3> try to imagine dropping Obama out of a bomber bay in a plane
1333 2011-05-21 05:59:18 <phantomcircuit> WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE
1334 2011-05-21 05:59:20 <_ape> yep
1335 2011-05-21 05:59:24 <Diablo-D3> all you'd see is his glowing hand the whole way down
1336 2011-05-21 05:59:29 <Diablo-D3> and then a mushroom cloud
1337 2011-05-21 05:59:31 <_ape> they will complain if we dont pump water across 3 states to them but they dont want to pay any taxes whatsoever
1338 2011-05-21 05:59:32 <XX01XX> Stillson Sea or whatever the fuck
1339 2011-05-21 05:59:32 <_ape> its great
1340 2011-05-21 05:59:50 <phantomcircuit> _ape, california sells them water
1341 2011-05-21 05:59:51 <phantomcircuit> lulz
1342 2011-05-21 05:59:53 <_ape> ya
1343 2011-05-21 05:59:54 <_ape> lol
1344 2011-05-21 06:00:15 <phantomcircuit> _ape, to be fair almost all of LA is actualyl dryer than vegas
1345 2011-05-21 06:00:21 <_ape> yeah i'm not saying cali is any better
1346 2011-05-21 06:00:33 <_ape> i'm in new mexico god knows we're stealing somebody elses water
1347 2011-05-21 06:00:47 <phantomcircuit> all those "green" people in la are hypocrites
1348 2011-05-21 06:00:58 <phantomcircuit> it's literally impossible to live in LA and be green
1349 2011-05-21 06:01:02 sm00th has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1350 2011-05-21 06:01:07 <XX01XX> Tennessee declared something georgia was doing about water an act of War a while back...
1351 2011-05-21 06:01:14 <phantomcircuit> _ape, you're probably pumping out of aquafirs
1352 2011-05-21 06:01:23 <_ape> yeah
1353 2011-05-21 06:01:23 <XX01XX> tongue-in-cheek
1354 2011-05-21 06:01:26 <_ape> but that can only last X years
1355 2011-05-21 06:01:33 <_ape> idk what they plan to do after that, probably riots
1356 2011-05-21 06:01:37 <phantomcircuit> _ape, lol
1357 2011-05-21 06:01:45 <phantomcircuit> you'll need desalination
1358 2011-05-21 06:01:46 <XX01XX> ape... move
1359 2011-05-21 06:01:50 <_ape> yeah i intend to :P
1360 2011-05-21 06:01:52 <phantomcircuit> which means energy up the ass
1361 2011-05-21 06:02:04 <phantomcircuit> which means nuclear probably
1362 2011-05-21 06:02:11 <XX01XX> woo!
1363 2011-05-21 06:02:15 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-240-192-86.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1364 2011-05-21 06:02:33 <phantomcircuit> either that or a giant solar reflector area
1365 2011-05-21 06:02:41 <phantomcircuit> but solar reflectors + sand != good
1366 2011-05-21 06:02:50 <phantomcircuit> so basically everywhere they work... they dont last long
1367 2011-05-21 06:02:52 <_ape> what do they get misaligned? heh
1368 2011-05-21 06:02:55 <_ape> oh the abrasion
1369 2011-05-21 06:03:00 <XX01XX> could be some amazing breakthrough in photovoltaics
1370 2011-05-21 06:03:04 <_ape> yeah you should see my freaking car man
1371 2011-05-21 06:03:14 <_ape> i left the top down for a day and my interior has like a mm of orange dust on it
1372 2011-05-21 06:03:15 <erbs> Diablo-D3 is a brilliant genius
1373 2011-05-21 06:03:15 <_ape> everywhere
1374 2011-05-21 06:03:16 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, they're already like 5x as efficient as photosynthesis
1375 2011-05-21 06:03:22 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, so im guessing that wont happen
1376 2011-05-21 06:03:49 <XX01XX> they could get the gammavoltaics andput them around the nuke plants.
1377 2011-05-21 06:04:02 <XX01XX> capture the radiation.
1378 2011-05-21 06:04:09 <Diablo-D3> erbs: I am, but why are you saying this?
1379 2011-05-21 06:04:17 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, lol are you for real?
1380 2011-05-21 06:04:22 <_ape> *modest brilliant genius
1381 2011-05-21 06:04:42 <XX01XX> phantomcircuit... no... though they are working on gamma spectrum PV materials
1382 2011-05-21 06:04:44 <_ape> i still havent figured out what is causing the damn cpu use in windows w/ your miner btw :(
1383 2011-05-21 06:04:45 <phantomcircuit> also the vast majority of radiation spikes in japan after the quake are due to natural radon deposits being released
1384 2011-05-21 06:04:47 dissipate has joined
1385 2011-05-21 06:05:20 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, very little gamma energy leaves a functional nuclear plant.. that would be a waste of energy
1386 2011-05-21 06:05:39 <XX01XX> phantomcircuit... it would be inside the shielding if they used it.
1387 2011-05-21 06:05:47 <phantomcircuit> oh
1388 2011-05-21 06:06:03 <phantomcircuit> hmm
1389 2011-05-21 06:06:08 <XX01XX> or it might replace the shielding, I don't know.
1390 2011-05-21 06:06:13 <phantomcircuit> that could work AND be more efficient
1391 2011-05-21 06:07:08 <XX01XX> it would be interesting from a "nuclear battery" perspective.
1392 2011-05-21 06:07:18 <erbs> sup
1393 2011-05-21 06:07:53 <erbs> is that corn
1394 2011-05-21 06:08:13 MartianW has joined
1395 2011-05-21 06:08:23 MartianW has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1396 2011-05-21 06:09:36 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, that would probably be easier to do than solar cells to
1397 2011-05-21 06:09:43 <phantomcircuit> gamma rays being higher energy and all
1398 2011-05-21 06:10:03 <erbs> waiter theres a neutrino in my soup
1399 2011-05-21 06:10:24 <XX01XX> eh... neutrons and electronics don't play together very well.
1400 2011-05-21 06:10:33 AntiVigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1401 2011-05-21 06:10:34 <phantomcircuit> lol
1402 2011-05-21 06:10:37 <phantomcircuit> im like
1403 2011-05-21 06:10:44 <phantomcircuit> 90% certain i just broke this guys drupal site
1404 2011-05-21 06:10:52 AntiVigilante has joined
1405 2011-05-21 06:11:00 <phantomcircuit> i told him i'd never used it before and he insisted i try and modify the production server
1406 2011-05-21 06:11:06 <phantomcircuit> whatever
1407 2011-05-21 06:13:46 <erbs> bitgrock
1408 2011-05-21 06:15:59 <phantomcircuit> wat
1409 2011-05-21 06:16:03 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB_X3lXC02w
1410 2011-05-21 06:16:10 <Diablo-D3> indian music meme time
1411 2011-05-21 06:17:10 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, ps i could gt faster internet in sf by doubling up providers
1412 2011-05-21 06:17:14 <phantomcircuit> but that's bullshit
1413 2011-05-21 06:17:17 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
1414 2011-05-21 06:17:25 <Diablo-D3> yeah see
1415 2011-05-21 06:17:27 <Diablo-D3> what I wanna do
1416 2011-05-21 06:17:29 <XX01XX> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOlz2ei4Yk
1417 2011-05-21 06:17:30 <Diablo-D3> is get rich
1418 2011-05-21 06:17:32 <Diablo-D3> and make my own town
1419 2011-05-21 06:17:35 <Diablo-D3> out in the middle of nowhere
1420 2011-05-21 06:17:37 <phantomcircuit> also att is openly colluding with comcast
1421 2011-05-21 06:17:44 <phantomcircuit> it's such bullshit
1422 2011-05-21 06:17:50 Netsniper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1423 2011-05-21 06:18:08 <Diablo-D3> hahaha
1424 2011-05-21 06:18:27 <Diablo-D3> XX01XX: Ive actually watched this whole movie
1425 2011-05-21 06:18:30 <phantomcircuit> and worse the state of california regularly breaks the law which requires they license anybody as a public utility who can show the insurance coverage
1426 2011-05-21 06:18:48 <Diablo-D3> its basically a parody of every holloywood robots go wrong movie ever
1427 2011-05-21 06:19:09 Netsniper has joined
1428 2011-05-21 06:20:33 <phantomcircuit> lol i think the fpga thing freaked people out
1429 2011-05-21 06:20:37 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,mtgox
1430 2011-05-21 06:20:37 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.99,"low":5.5772,"vol":51068,"buy":5.8405,"sell":5.8501,"last":5.8405}}
1431 2011-05-21 06:20:41 <phantomcircuit> people are so dumb
1432 2011-05-21 06:21:43 anarchocap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1433 2011-05-21 06:23:36 <phantomcircuit> a $400 fpga is going to be slower than a 5870
1434 2011-05-21 06:23:39 <phantomcircuit> that's so stupid
1435 2011-05-21 06:24:15 discHead has quit (Quit:)
1436 2011-05-21 06:24:55 <Diablo-D3> loldongs.
1437 2011-05-21 06:25:46 <jrmithdobbs> erm, did MagicalTux change how many txns he waits?
1438 2011-05-21 06:25:55 <jrmithdobbs> for depositing btc?
1439 2011-05-21 06:26:04 noagendamarket has joined
1440 2011-05-21 06:26:05 <Diablo-D3> think he uses 6 like normal
1441 2011-05-21 06:26:23 <jrmithdobbs> he was using 5 but this txn just hit 6 and still not showing
1442 2011-05-21 06:26:30 mesees has joined
1443 2011-05-21 06:27:45 <jrmithdobbs> looks like he's waiting 7, nm
1444 2011-05-21 06:28:15 <phantomcircuit> lol oh wow asks out number bids on mtgox by... a lot
1445 2011-05-21 06:28:40 <jrmithdobbs> yup, time to set high and go to bed ;P
1446 2011-05-21 06:29:23 <phantomcircuit> i tried to put in an ask @ 1 million usd
1447 2011-05-21 06:29:28 <phantomcircuit> but it wouldn't let me
1448 2011-05-21 06:29:28 <phantomcircuit> lol
1449 2011-05-21 06:29:39 <jrmithdobbs> hopefully not broke when i wake up, haha
1450 2011-05-21 06:30:51 <jrmithdobbs> shit's finally correcting it looks like. ;P
1451 2011-05-21 06:31:18 <phantomcircuit> actually i think it's simply gamers who have no idea what they're doing looking for fast cash
1452 2011-05-21 06:32:01 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, you have a strange forum name
1453 2011-05-21 06:32:13 <phantomcircuit> i thought the 0.3.22 rc was a trojan at first
1454 2011-05-21 06:33:19 <phantomcircuit> oh btw guys
1455 2011-05-21 06:33:27 <phantomcircuit> i coudl shut down the network right now if i wanted to
1456 2011-05-21 06:33:38 <XX01XX> Do it
1457 2011-05-21 06:33:39 <phantomcircuit> well more so shut out new clients which would slowly kill the p2p net
1458 2011-05-21 06:33:45 <z310> Diablo-D3: are you the guy that made a garden in your backyard and complained about deer
1459 2011-05-21 06:33:53 <phantomcircuit> XX01XX, would be a disaster and kind of expensive
1460 2011-05-21 06:33:56 <eamon> people arguing over the security of the bitcoin system, generation of fake blocks, http://boards.4chan.org/b/res/329574786
1461 2011-05-21 06:34:07 <XX01XX> phantomcircuit... well.. cash out... then do it.
1462 2011-05-21 06:34:25 <phantomcircuit> i ran it against 20 nodes on a vm and managed to stop new nodes connecting and even cause old nodes connectiosn to drop
1463 2011-05-21 06:34:35 <z310> eamon: 4chan :/
1464 2011-05-21 06:34:54 noitev_ has joined
1465 2011-05-21 06:35:02 <noitev_> hello
1466 2011-05-21 06:35:16 <lfm> hi
1467 2011-05-21 06:35:37 <Diablo-D3> z310: no.
1468 2011-05-21 06:35:43 <Diablo-D3> that'd be awesome if I got deer
1469 2011-05-21 06:35:43 <doublec> howdy
1470 2011-05-21 06:35:49 <Diablo-D3> I live in maine and very rarely see deer
1471 2011-05-21 06:36:33 <z310> Diablo-D3: trying to think back to who i talked to about a year ago. i distinctly remember your nick and your GPU work but that's it
1472 2011-05-21 06:36:41 <phantomcircuit> shit
1473 2011-05-21 06:36:49 <phantomcircuit> i have no diea how to change the music
1474 2011-05-21 06:36:50 <phantomcircuit> lol
1475 2011-05-21 06:37:06 <lfm> it was less than a year ago then
1476 2011-05-21 06:37:09 <phantomcircuit> MUSIC I DEMAND YOU CHANGE
1477 2011-05-21 06:37:27 <z310> lfm: a little less, yes
1478 2011-05-21 06:37:30 <noitev_> ok i was reffered here and need miner help
1479 2011-05-21 06:37:35 <noitev_> one of my card isnt showing up
1480 2011-05-21 06:37:42 <lfm> like august or sept maybe
1481 2011-05-21 06:37:53 <lfm> or later
1482 2011-05-21 06:37:59 <z310> lfm: no i think a little before that
1483 2011-05-21 06:38:11 <z310> july-ish
1484 2011-05-21 06:38:13 <lfm> z310: there was no gpu work before that
1485 2011-05-21 06:38:19 alystair has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1486 2011-05-21 06:39:05 <phantomcircuit> fucking samba is such a huge src package
1487 2011-05-21 06:39:14 <phantomcircuit> i love how some software has large source than binaries
1488 2011-05-21 06:39:16 <noitev_> can anyone help :/
1489 2011-05-21 06:39:36 <phantomcircuit> and yet if you take a simple c file and compile it you'll end up with a comparatively giant bin
1490 2011-05-21 06:39:51 <z310> lfm: my last post on the forums is early september
1491 2011-05-21 06:39:51 <lfm> noitev_: where do you think it might be?
1492 2011-05-21 06:39:51 <phantomcircuit> noitev_, which miner?
1493 2011-05-21 06:39:58 <phantomcircuit> lfm, rofl
1494 2011-05-21 06:40:15 <z310> noitev_: monitor swapping didn't work?
1495 2011-05-21 06:40:57 <phantomcircuit> eamon, i like how 99% of the people criticizing bitcoin have literally no idea how it works
1496 2011-05-21 06:40:58 <phantomcircuit> like
1497 2011-05-21 06:40:59 <phantomcircuit> at all
1498 2011-05-21 06:41:15 <noitev_> neither phoenix or the gui work
1499 2011-05-21 06:41:48 <noitev_> the video wont show on the other card
1500 2011-05-21 06:41:56 <doublec> what type of card
1501 2011-05-21 06:42:00 <noitev_> 5870
1502 2011-05-21 06:42:16 <doublec> define 'isn't showing up'
1503 2011-05-21 06:42:24 <doublec> how are you looking for it
1504 2011-05-21 06:42:31 <eamon> phantomcircuit: I know right. I'm actaully the only one refuting them. I'm trying to anyway but I don't really know how it works either (this is where you come in!)!
1505 2011-05-21 06:42:31 <noitev_> not listed in gui, invalid device in phoenix
1506 2011-05-21 06:42:37 <lfm> did it work before like in crossfire or anything?
1507 2011-05-21 06:42:47 <noitev_> it worked in crossfire weirdly
1508 2011-05-21 06:42:50 <noitev_> but it was glitchy
1509 2011-05-21 06:43:10 <lfm> noitev_: what power supply do you have?
1510 2011-05-21 06:43:16 <noitev_> 1kw
1511 2011-05-21 06:43:38 <lfm> what motherboard?
1512 2011-05-21 06:43:47 <noitev_> 1 sec
1513 2011-05-21 06:44:10 <phantomcircuit> eamon, the 21 million blocks are allocated based on generating blocks, blocks are generated to (more or less) timestamp transactions, magic
1514 2011-05-21 06:44:19 <noitev_> its some amd one with 2 pci 16 express slots
1515 2011-05-21 06:44:33 <phantomcircuit> eamon, that basically covers it
1516 2011-05-21 06:44:33 gasteve_ has joined
1517 2011-05-21 06:45:43 <phantomcircuit> also i just realized i have a 100 mbps server to put my vpn on
1518 2011-05-21 06:45:50 <phantomcircuit> why the fuck am i using my shitty home dsl box
1519 2011-05-21 06:45:53 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
1520 2011-05-21 06:46:11 <noitev_> its msi also
1521 2011-05-21 06:46:45 <noitev_> lfm:?
1522 2011-05-21 06:47:10 <phantomcircuit> noitev_, heh you'll need more info than brand name :P
1523 2011-05-21 06:47:29 <lfm> ok msi should be ok but I suspect it is not really a bitcoin problem, more of a hardware problem. like if aticonif utility cant see it bitcoin sure wont
1524 2011-05-21 06:47:54 <lfm> aticonfig
1525 2011-05-21 06:48:29 <z310> lfm: how long have you been around?
1526 2011-05-21 06:48:43 <lfm> since I poped outa my mother's belly
1527 2011-05-21 06:48:48 <z310> 0
1528 2011-05-21 06:48:51 <z310> I mean this channel
1529 2011-05-21 06:48:58 <lfm> oh
1530 2011-05-21 06:49:06 <z310> your nick too is looking familiar
1531 2011-05-21 06:49:10 <noitev_> its just that ccc allows crossfire which enables the card, but wont touch the card itself
1532 2011-05-21 06:49:22 <lfm> since the major sladhdot event last July
1533 2011-05-21 06:49:37 <z310> oh yes. nice
1534 2011-05-21 06:50:10 <z310> lfm: that made me some money. i'm sad for selling all my coins though
1535 2011-05-21 06:50:44 <lfm> noitev_: ya, Id advize trying to get ccc working right before you try any bitcoin stuff on it
1536 2011-05-21 06:50:52 <noitev_> ugh
1537 2011-05-21 06:50:58 <noitev_> well im restaring so bb for now
1538 2011-05-21 06:51:09 <lfm> k good luck
1539 2011-05-21 06:51:13 noitev_ has quit ()
1540 2011-05-21 06:52:11 inductor_ has joined
1541 2011-05-21 06:53:22 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
1542 2011-05-21 06:53:23 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.99,"low":5.5772,"vol":51867,"buy":5.6199,"sell":5.8362,"last":5.62}}
1543 2011-05-21 06:58:07 gasteve_ has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1544 2011-05-21 07:01:35 someguy798 has joined
1545 2011-05-21 07:01:56 <someguy798> hello, could someone please explain the relevance of mining?
1546 2011-05-21 07:02:20 <someguy798> i dont understand how mining these blocks can benefit anything
1547 2011-05-21 07:02:30 <someguy798> what are these blocks and why do they need to be mined??
1548 2011-05-21 07:04:10 noitec_ has joined
1549 2011-05-21 07:04:16 <noitec_> ugh
1550 2011-05-21 07:04:19 <lfm> they need to be mined to verify and freeze the transactions into the block chain
1551 2011-05-21 07:04:30 <noitec_> well its acting really weird
1552 2011-05-21 07:04:36 RazielZ has joined
1553 2011-05-21 07:04:52 <lfm> noitec_: do they both work one at a time?
1554 2011-05-21 07:05:13 <lfm> like put out right out and try it then try the other
1555 2011-05-21 07:05:47 sytse has joined
1556 2011-05-21 07:06:13 <noitec_> well it says kernel error: unusual opencl behavior. hardware problem?
1557 2011-05-21 07:06:18 <noitec_> over and over
1558 2011-05-21 07:06:34 galaxyAbstractor has joined
1559 2011-05-21 07:06:36 <noitec_> i can do that now
1560 2011-05-21 07:06:43 <noitec_> icant do that now
1561 2011-05-21 07:06:51 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1562 2011-05-21 07:06:53 <noitec_> take out the vga
1563 2011-05-21 07:07:07 <lfm> noitec_: could be power suppy shortage like if the psu is flakey or one of the cards is burnt out or even the motherboard has a bad slot
1564 2011-05-21 07:07:08 galaxyAbstractor has left ()
1565 2011-05-21 07:07:15 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1566 2011-05-21 07:07:25 <noitec_> super
1567 2011-05-21 07:07:58 <lfm> noitec_: it might help if you try the cards one at a time
1568 2011-05-21 07:08:21 <lfm> to narrow down where the problem is
1569 2011-05-21 07:08:40 <someguy798> i think im confused.. so these blocks need to be mined to verify transactions for currency that has no real merit.
1570 2011-05-21 07:08:54 <lfm> noitec_: try bad ones in both slots
1571 2011-05-21 07:08:59 eoss has joined
1572 2011-05-21 07:09:07 <Namegduf> someguy798: The blocks need to be mined to verify transactions for bitcoins.
1573 2011-05-21 07:09:16 <Namegduf> Measures of metrics are irrelevant
1574 2011-05-21 07:09:20 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1575 2011-05-21 07:09:26 <Namegduf> To this aspect of design
1576 2011-05-21 07:09:40 <Namegduf> They merely provide the feature, they do not relate to reasoning of the feature's utility
1577 2011-05-21 07:09:43 <lfm> someguy798: what you mean, no merit?! bitcoin is at least as good as paper money
1578 2011-05-21 07:10:06 <someguy798> isnt this basically turning all the technically apt and graphics card companies into the upper tier of the economy?
1579 2011-05-21 07:10:36 <someguy798> seems just like capitalism to me
1580 2011-05-21 07:10:41 <Namegduf> Not really
1581 2011-05-21 07:10:47 <Namegduf> That assumes mining generates most of the value.
1582 2011-05-21 07:10:48 <Namegduf> It doesn't.
1583 2011-05-21 07:10:51 <lfm> someguy798: we are going beyond GPU miners and starting to use FPGA and ASIC miners
1584 2011-05-21 07:10:55 <Namegduf> CPU mining isn't worth electricity at this point.
1585 2011-05-21 07:10:59 <Namegduf> GPU mining isn't worth that much.
1586 2011-05-21 07:11:10 <Namegduf> It's nothing compared to the income of a minimum wage job
1587 2011-05-21 07:11:20 <Namegduf> Let alone a "upper part of the economy" job.
1588 2011-05-21 07:11:28 <someguy798> then what is the benefit?
1589 2011-05-21 07:11:39 <Namegduf> CPU mining, nothing, GPU miners outcompeted you
1590 2011-05-21 07:11:48 <Namegduf> You're going to spend more on electricity than you gain.
1591 2011-05-21 07:11:49 <noitec_> ok well it glitches whenever it finds a solution
1592 2011-05-21 07:11:52 <noitec_> so idk
1593 2011-05-21 07:11:55 <Namegduf> GPU mining, you get *some* profit.
1594 2011-05-21 07:11:58 <Namegduf> Enough to keep people doing it.
1595 2011-05-21 07:12:09 <Namegduf> If they stop, then difficulty drops until someone does it.
1596 2011-05-21 07:12:11 <lfm> someguy798: well the benifit is we can trade bitcoins for other things we value, sorta like people do with paper money
1597 2011-05-21 07:12:15 <Namegduf> It's weirdly like an automatic capitalist system.
1598 2011-05-21 07:12:26 <Namegduf> The difficulty rises until it's no longer economical to mine
1599 2011-05-21 07:12:34 <Namegduf> And the number of miners stablises at the right level
1600 2011-05-21 07:12:47 <someguy798> dont you think this will exponentially increase the power consumption of the world?
1601 2011-05-21 07:12:49 <Namegduf> (Which is "when it's no longer economical for anyone else to start mining")
1602 2011-05-21 07:12:50 <Namegduf> No
1603 2011-05-21 07:13:01 <Namegduf> someguy798: You need to gain a consideration of degree.
1604 2011-05-21 07:13:12 <Namegduf> It will increase the power consumption of the world.
1605 2011-05-21 07:13:16 <someguy798> you cant base a currency off something that is a rare commodity, we do that with oil now and look where it has gotten us
1606 2011-05-21 07:13:16 <lfm> someguy798: no, we are very aware of how much electricity we use
1607 2011-05-21 07:13:18 <Namegduf> It will not increase it significantly.
1608 2011-05-21 07:13:29 <Namegduf> No, we don't do it with oil now
1609 2011-05-21 07:13:30 <phantomcircuit> Namegduf, gpu mining scales
1610 2011-05-21 07:13:38 <phantomcircuit> Namegduf, with enough capital it pays well ;)
1611 2011-05-21 07:13:45 <lfm> someguy798: why cant you base a currency on it?
1612 2011-05-21 07:13:49 <someguy798> we indeed do it with oil now
1613 2011-05-21 07:13:56 <Namegduf> No, we don't use oil as a currency.
1614 2011-05-21 07:13:56 <phantomcircuit> and it certainly is beating the market right now in terms of roi
1615 2011-05-21 07:14:10 <someguy798> it is worth something it is a valuable and functional product
1616 2011-05-21 07:14:13 <someguy798> it is tangible
1617 2011-05-21 07:14:14 <phantomcircuit> Namegduf, actually it's pretty close on forex markets
1618 2011-05-21 07:14:16 <someguy798> you need it
1619 2011-05-21 07:14:22 <Namegduf> Being worth something does not make it a "currency"
1620 2011-05-21 07:14:27 <lfm> someguy798: anyone who wants bitcoins can buy some if they cant mine
1621 2011-05-21 07:14:29 dissipate has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1622 2011-05-21 07:14:32 <Namegduf> What you're observing is natural bartering of items of value and cannot be avoided without scrapping capitalism entire
1623 2011-05-21 07:14:38 <Namegduf> Which, um
1624 2011-05-21 07:14:43 <Alexees> anyone know how to make an encrypted filename ? for example I Want to encrtyp bitcoin.exe it will become 123hasdh21312321.exe and to decrypt it need a keyword, is it possible ?
1625 2011-05-21 07:14:43 <Namegduf> Does not strike me as a goal of bitcoin
1626 2011-05-21 07:14:44 <Namegduf> Sorry
1627 2011-05-21 07:14:54 <someguy798> im not talking about the "phrase" currency, im talking about the value of something
1628 2011-05-21 07:15:02 <Namegduf> someguy798: Then talk about what you mean.
1629 2011-05-21 07:15:03 <someguy798> to which currency is a assigned a number
1630 2011-05-21 07:15:18 <Namegduf> someguy798: In fact, just restate your entire claim
1631 2011-05-21 07:15:20 <lfm> Alexees: Sorry, I dont understand
1632 2011-05-21 07:15:25 <phantomcircuit> Alexees, if you dont mind me asking.. why?
1633 2011-05-21 07:15:28 <Namegduf> someguy798: I have no idea what it is anymore.
1634 2011-05-21 07:15:45 <C4colo> do I care if a motherboard says it is SLI but I'm using ATI cards?
1635 2011-05-21 07:15:55 <phantomcircuit> C4colo, probably not
1636 2011-05-21 07:16:02 <Namegduf> C4colo: No
1637 2011-05-21 07:16:04 <C4colo> I'm not doing SLI the cards will work fine ... I don't need "crossfire" motherboard I hope
1638 2011-05-21 07:16:12 <C4colo> ok
1639 2011-05-21 07:16:16 <Namegduf> SLI is entirely optional and does nothing when not in use
1640 2011-05-21 07:16:18 <someguy798> if bitcoins are just a network of people making transactions by using up electricity by mining blocks with their GPUs and spending "actual" money doing so... then how does that help anyone
1641 2011-05-21 07:16:28 <Alexees> I just want to encrypt the filename itself , not the file
1642 2011-05-21 07:16:45 <Namegduf> someguy798: It's a system for exchanging value. It doesn't inherently generate the value worth exchanging.
1643 2011-05-21 07:16:48 <C4colo> if USD is just linen paper printed with expensive magnetic ink how does that help anyone?
1644 2011-05-21 07:16:54 <lfm> someguy798: it has value if the people who want to use it say it has value. just like those pieces of paper you are used to. they arnt really any more intrinsicly valueable that a special string of bits.
1645 2011-05-21 07:17:01 <Namegduf> It may, potentially, provide value by permitting OTHER value to be exchanged more easily
1646 2011-05-21 07:17:04 <C4colo> (or even worse, just a digital record of a value)
1647 2011-05-21 07:17:05 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, the mining is an anti counterfeiting operation, and it's a whole lot more efficient than police and courts are
1648 2011-05-21 07:17:10 <Namegduf> I bought a SPotify Free invite earlier
1649 2011-05-21 07:17:16 <Namegduf> Easy
1650 2011-05-21 07:17:31 <Namegduf> For small transactions, bitcoin is pretty awesome
1651 2011-05-21 07:17:32 <someguy798> then what is my incentive to trade my belongings or services for something that isnt of the same value??
1652 2011-05-21 07:17:44 <Alexees> for example : I set the passphrase to "google" so bitcoin.exe will become asd123213a211.exe, without the passphrase someone can not read the actual filename
1653 2011-05-21 07:17:51 <Namegduf> someguy798: I unno.
1654 2011-05-21 07:17:51 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, you would never do that
1655 2011-05-21 07:17:57 <Namegduf> someguy798: Also two question marks is excessive.
1656 2011-05-21 07:17:58 <Namegduf> Don't.
1657 2011-05-21 07:18:08 <Namegduf> It makes you look like an emotional six year old.
1658 2011-05-21 07:18:09 <lfm> someguy798: why do you value paper money? same reason.
1659 2011-05-21 07:18:19 <someguy798> lfm: i agree with that point entirely, if you say it has value, its worthless, until someone else agrees with you.
1660 2011-05-21 07:18:30 <erbs> runcible
1661 2011-05-21 07:18:36 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, plenty of people are agreeing though ;)
1662 2011-05-21 07:18:43 <Alexees> for example I want to encrypt an important letter or documents, just the message, not the file
1663 2011-05-21 07:18:47 <Namegduf> You would buy BTC when you viewed the value of the BTC as equal to the cost of it
1664 2011-05-21 07:18:58 <Namegduf> Due to its potential for use in exchanging for other value
1665 2011-05-21 07:19:09 <Namegduf> If you don't, don't.
1666 2011-05-21 07:19:12 <Namegduf> No one is making you.
1667 2011-05-21 07:19:21 <phantomcircuit> personally im using btc currently to skirt currency exchanges
1668 2011-05-21 07:19:22 <Alexees> people can read the entire message, but without correct passphrase or password or algorhytm they will not understand whats the message means
1669 2011-05-21 07:19:22 <someguy798> so then why use GPU power to determine who generates bitcoins? i dont understand why that is part of the process
1670 2011-05-21 07:19:27 <phantomcircuit> fuck them and their 5% fees
1671 2011-05-21 07:19:47 <lfm> someguy798: when a currency just gets declared to be a currency, it is called a "fiat currency" wheather it is dollars or bitcoins.
1672 2011-05-21 07:20:04 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, it's not really about the generating of bitcoins, it's about proving that transactions occured (giving the miners btc is simply to encourage them to do it)
1673 2011-05-21 07:20:08 <Namegduf> someguy798: It permits valid blocks to be easily distinguished, and the rate at which they're generated to be controlled by "difficulty" without a central control.
1674 2011-05-21 07:20:14 <someguy798> ok this is the kind of information im looking for
1675 2011-05-21 07:20:30 <someguy798> im not ragging on the idea, just being skeptical and need to get the facts
1676 2011-05-21 07:20:33 <Namegduf> Giving the miner's BTC is just a way to decide how to distribute the intital BTC and motivate the process
1677 2011-05-21 07:20:55 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, bitcoin is basically a giant distributed notary system, every transaction is stamped by the network as having happened, so you cant spend the same btc twice
1678 2011-05-21 07:21:07 <C4colo> if one of the x16 is only x8 in protocol will it still be able to hash at the same speed
1679 2011-05-21 07:21:14 <C4colo> say I got a dual-gpu card
1680 2011-05-21 07:21:20 <C4colo> is the bus a limiting factor?
1681 2011-05-21 07:21:24 <lfm> someguy798: bitcoins are handy as a currency cuz they are so easy to move around from person to person around the world without too many fees or regulations slowing things down
1682 2011-05-21 07:21:40 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, in order to do that you need the stamping to be something hard to forge, thus mining which is difficult
1683 2011-05-21 07:21:57 iera has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1684 2011-05-21 07:21:58 <someguy798> these back logs of "stamped" blocks are stored across a network? where?
1685 2011-05-21 07:22:04 <someguy798> on a group of servers?
1686 2011-05-21 07:22:10 <Namegduf> someguy798: On every bitcoin node.
1687 2011-05-21 07:22:11 <noitec_> on ever yclient
1688 2011-05-21 07:22:13 iera has joined
1689 2011-05-21 07:22:15 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, currently every single node has a complete history
1690 2011-05-21 07:22:19 <lfm> phantomcircuit: ya, hard to make, hard to forge and easy to verify
1691 2011-05-21 07:22:20 <erbs> Hoopsiprang
1692 2011-05-21 07:22:23 <Namegduf> Apparently it scales enough to be functional.
1693 2011-05-21 07:22:26 <C4colo> on your system .... otherwise you wouldn't know if the bitcoins sent to you are valid
1694 2011-05-21 07:22:56 <phantomcircuit> Namegduf, well in the future we'll be able to drop a lot of transactions, it's simply a matter of writting the logic to drop completely spent transactions from the block chain
1695 2011-05-21 07:23:07 <Namegduf> phantomcircuit: Ah.
1696 2011-05-21 07:23:32 <phantomcircuit> Namegduf, and the logic for that isn't super complicated actually, it's just not such a problem that anybody has actually done it yet
1697 2011-05-21 07:23:34 <someguy798> at what point would you say we will reach the intersection of real currency to bitcoin (where it begins to become profitable)
1698 2011-05-21 07:23:40 <Namegduf> phantomcircuit: Makes sense.
1699 2011-05-21 07:23:55 <Namegduf> phantomcircuit: Depends what you mean by "profitable"
1700 2011-05-21 07:23:56 <C4colo> or agreeing for the most part that you only need to have 1 year or so for casual verification and allowing the miners to keep the full copy because they need it to verify new blocks all the way back to generation
1701 2011-05-21 07:23:57 sethsethseth___ has joined
1702 2011-05-21 07:24:01 <Namegduf> The price went up to $7 recently
1703 2011-05-21 07:24:02 <lfm> someguy798: that happened for some people about a year ago
1704 2011-05-21 07:24:06 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, bitcoin mining is pretty profitable on gpu's right now...
1705 2011-05-21 07:24:08 <Namegduf> I found the blocks I mined a year ago were worth $350
1706 2011-05-21 07:24:14 <someguy798> i do like the way it drives technology to be exponentially greater than its predecessors
1707 2011-05-21 07:24:18 <Namegduf> And I got over $100 out before buying more
1708 2011-05-21 07:24:27 <noitec_> ;;bc,mtgox
1709 2011-05-21 07:24:27 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.94,"low":5.5772,"vol":51872,"buy":5.6101,"sell":5.65,"last":5.6101}}
1710 2011-05-21 07:24:28 <Namegduf> So it is convertable at the exchange rates.
1711 2011-05-21 07:24:31 <phantomcircuit> i was just paid in btc
1712 2011-05-21 07:24:34 <Namegduf> There's a lot of exchange traffic
1713 2011-05-21 07:24:48 <phantomcircuit> between me and my employer i avoided about 10% in fees
1714 2011-05-21 07:24:53 <someguy798> how does the value to any current currency get calculated? and where can you convert?
1715 2011-05-21 07:24:54 <phantomcircuit> so my pay was effectively 10% higher
1716 2011-05-21 07:24:54 <erbs> whats new mang
1717 2011-05-21 07:24:57 <phantomcircuit> ballin
1718 2011-05-21 07:25:03 <Namegduf> someguy798: It's calculated by how much someone is willing to pay.
1719 2011-05-21 07:25:07 sethsethseth____ has joined
1720 2011-05-21 07:25:20 <someguy798> so is this accurate? http://bitcoin.1t2l.net/widget/?from=BTC
1721 2011-05-21 07:25:22 <Namegduf> There's various exchanges which mediate the exchange and maintain a quite reasonable volume
1722 2011-05-21 07:25:24 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, the same way everything else gets valued, by how much you can get for them and vice versa
1723 2011-05-21 07:25:36 sethsethseth____ is now known as sethsethseth_
1724 2011-05-21 07:25:39 <Namegduf> But it's always someone paying X USD for Y BTC
1725 2011-05-21 07:25:46 <Namegduf> And someone else getting Y BTC in exchange for X USD
1726 2011-05-21 07:25:52 <Namegduf> Prices are what others will offer.
1727 2011-05-21 07:26:03 sethsethseth__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1728 2011-05-21 07:26:04 <Namegduf> I tend to liken currency speculating to stock.
1729 2011-05-21 07:26:07 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, yes that's the price from https://mtgox.com/
1730 2011-05-21 07:26:07 <someguy798> so the converter is really useless
1731 2011-05-21 07:26:18 <phantomcircuit> someguy798, which is the largest usd<->btc exchange
1732 2011-05-21 07:26:20 <Namegduf> The exchange rate is too unstable
1733 2011-05-21 07:26:24 <Namegduf> mtgox
1734 2011-05-21 07:26:33 <metonymous> what Namegduf said
1735 2011-05-21 07:26:38 <Namegduf> http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ <- This is what you want.
1736 2011-05-21 07:26:42 <phantomcircuit> well they're not super unstable
1737 2011-05-21 07:26:48 <Namegduf> It's all the major exchanges, current price, latest close, and volume.
1738 2011-05-21 07:26:54 <phantomcircuit> especially for a 48 hour period
1739 2011-05-21 07:27:01 <lfm> someguy798: tthe main exchange is mtgox.com for most people
1740 2011-05-21 07:27:22 <someguy798> so is there a finite amount of BTC?
1741 2011-05-21 07:27:28 <metonymous> there will be
1742 2011-05-21 07:27:31 <metonymous> 21,000,000
1743 2011-05-21 07:27:36 <Namegduf> At present, 6.273 million.
1744 2011-05-21 07:27:37 skeledrew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1745 2011-05-21 07:27:40 <lfm> in about 140 years
1746 2011-05-21 07:27:42 <someguy798> why?
1747 2011-05-21 07:27:44 <Namegduf> There will be 50 more at next block generation.
1748 2011-05-21 07:27:47 <metonymous> it's exponential back off
1749 2011-05-21 07:27:52 <Namegduf> Block generation BTC rewards get exponential backoff
1750 2011-05-21 07:27:55 diki has joined
1751 2011-05-21 07:27:57 <metonymous> the creator decided it so
1752 2011-05-21 07:28:00 <Namegduf> Ending in that 21 million.
1753 2011-05-21 07:28:06 <Namegduf> someguy798: Design decision.
1754 2011-05-21 07:28:07 <metonymous> asymptote right?
1755 2011-05-21 07:28:10 <lfm> why not? We dont want a "bank" that can just print new money at will
1756 2011-05-21 07:28:21 <diki> Today is a tragic day. The father of my friend has passed away :(
1757 2011-05-21 07:28:28 <someguy798> lfm: that makes sense
1758 2011-05-21 07:28:43 sethsethseth___ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1759 2011-05-21 07:28:45 <someguy798> but really "printing" an exorbitant amount of money will devalue your currency
1760 2011-05-21 07:29:24 <lfm> someguy798: so the creator decided to try a different approach
1761 2011-05-21 07:29:45 <someguy798> ok so the total amt of bitcoin available is 21,000,000. thats fractionally less than the amount of people on eart
1762 2011-05-21 07:29:49 <someguy798> earth*
1763 2011-05-21 07:30:13 <diki> because no one thought btc would succeed
1764 2011-05-21 07:30:33 <someguy798> so why dont they increase it? it will never succeed at its present cap
1765 2011-05-21 07:30:40 <lfm> someguy798: actually bitcoins should slowly become fewer as some are inevitably lost and unrecoverable over time
1766 2011-05-21 07:30:41 <someguy798> i think BTC
1767 2011-05-21 07:30:47 <diki> because i think...people will rest assured they will have more
1768 2011-05-21 07:30:50 <Namegduf> someguy798: Bitcoins have some insane number of decimal places.
1769 2011-05-21 07:30:51 <diki> thus less people sell/buy
1770 2011-05-21 07:31:05 <someguy798> i think BTC's final amt should bne dynamically determined based on the size of the network
1771 2011-05-21 07:31:06 TD_ has joined
1772 2011-05-21 07:31:48 <diki> i think there should be a coin for everyone
1773 2011-05-21 07:31:52 <Namegduf> someguy798: I'm not sure I see an obvious easy algorithm to do that.
1774 2011-05-21 07:31:54 <lfm> someguy798: well the rate of circulation is much more significant to the availability of bitcoin than the total amount around
1775 2011-05-21 07:31:58 <diki> a coin per person = 7 billion
1776 2011-05-21 07:32:33 <diki> at current rate i don't think it will take anyone 100 years to mine all the blocks
1777 2011-05-21 07:32:34 <someguy798> diki a coin per person could never work
1778 2011-05-21 07:32:48 <Namegduf> diki: Current rate will not be maintained
1779 2011-05-21 07:32:51 <Namegduf> Difficulty jumps and all
1780 2011-05-21 07:32:53 skeledrew has joined
1781 2011-05-21 07:33:02 <diki> it jumps, but more powerful hardware arises
1782 2011-05-21 07:33:03 noitec_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1783 2011-05-21 07:33:08 <diki> people buy more and more rigs
1784 2011-05-21 07:33:10 <Namegduf> diki: Yeah, but it's not lagging that much.
1785 2011-05-21 07:33:14 <Namegduf> At the moment we're about...
1786 2011-05-21 07:33:19 <Namegduf> I forget the command.
1787 2011-05-21 07:33:20 <someguy798> what does the block get verfied against?
1788 2011-05-21 07:33:25 <someguy798> strings of random hashes?
1789 2011-05-21 07:33:27 <Namegduf> Maybe 1/3rd too fast?
1790 2011-05-21 07:33:38 <Namegduf> someguy798: It's hashed.
1791 2011-05-21 07:33:43 C4away has joined
1792 2011-05-21 07:33:43 <Namegduf> The hash should match what it should be.
1793 2011-05-21 07:33:47 <Namegduf> Hashes are quick to verify.
1794 2011-05-21 07:33:59 <diki> my point is, if someone joined in with a 30 racks for testing...he could mine like 1000 blocks per day
1795 2011-05-21 07:34:07 <someguy798> ah ok
1796 2011-05-21 07:34:20 <lfm> diki not really
1797 2011-05-21 07:34:20 <Namegduf> diki: Isn't difficulty boost based on number of blocks so far?
1798 2011-05-21 07:34:21 <diki> i've seen people like that join f@h
1799 2011-05-21 07:34:43 <Namegduf> He should mine very rapidly until next difficulty
1800 2011-05-21 07:34:43 <Namegduf> Then difficulty goes WHAM
1801 2011-05-21 07:34:50 <diki> Afaik, diff is boosted by the time it takes to mine 2016 blocks
1802 2011-05-21 07:34:52 <Namegduf> And it's back to one per 10 minutes.
1803 2011-05-21 07:35:19 <Namegduf> Yep.
1804 2011-05-21 07:35:23 <diki> if people mine them faster than the previous time then diff increases,
1805 2011-05-21 07:35:44 <Namegduf> someguy798: " Blocks are "anything whose transactions have valid signing and whose SHA-256 hash is in a certain range", and these properties are verified by other nodes. If it doesn't match, they'll be rejected, if they do, it'll be accepted."
1806 2011-05-21 07:35:50 <diki> but there is also possibility of this: If the trend to buy more hardware doesnt go up
1807 2011-05-21 07:35:53 <lfm> diki We figured a while ago that it would take about 2000 5970 GPU cards to EQUAL the current net, that would only let you mine 144 blocks a day BACK THEN. now it would be more
1808 2011-05-21 07:35:55 <Namegduf> That's a very very rough approximation
1809 2011-05-21 07:36:22 <diki> Then there will be a time when diff would go up and down like crazy
1810 2011-05-21 07:36:22 C4colo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1811 2011-05-21 07:36:30 <Namegduf> I don't see why.
1812 2011-05-21 07:36:33 <someguy798> and when it is accepted, you get a bitcoin?
1813 2011-05-21 07:36:44 <diki> Diff would reach a point where current hardware can't mine the blocks faster
1814 2011-05-21 07:36:47 <Namegduf> The block's header includes transactions.
1815 2011-05-21 07:36:48 <lfm> diki, nope cuz power costs are different in different places
1816 2011-05-21 07:36:50 <diki> thus diff would go down
1817 2011-05-21 07:36:59 <Namegduf> The first transaction allocates the block's bitcoins to an address.
1818 2011-05-21 07:37:00 <Namegduf> Yours.
1819 2011-05-21 07:37:01 <diki> when they mine them fast, it would go up again
1820 2011-05-21 07:37:03 <diki> and then down
1821 2011-05-21 07:37:04 <Namegduf> You get 50.
1822 2011-05-21 07:37:09 <Namegduf> For the first so many.
1823 2011-05-21 07:37:18 <diki> thus diff would stay in a stand-still
1824 2011-05-21 07:37:19 <Namegduf> diki: Er
1825 2011-05-21 07:37:25 <Namegduf> It would stop going up and stand still
1826 2011-05-21 07:37:35 <Namegduf> It wouldn't start flipflopping around wildly
1827 2011-05-21 07:37:38 <Namegduf> Not sure why you got that
1828 2011-05-21 07:37:39 <lfm> diki thats what we hope will eventually happen ya
1829 2011-05-21 07:37:45 <Namegduf> And yes, that's the idea.
1830 2011-05-21 07:38:03 <diki> i actually at first thought there are 21 billion blocks
1831 2011-05-21 07:38:05 <Namegduf> Difficulty chases increases in capacity, but will even out. If you throw huge amounts of capacity in it evens out faster.
1832 2011-05-21 07:38:11 <jfksir> heh i think i did it - bitcoin,exe from source
1833 2011-05-21 07:38:17 <diki> since there are people with billions in their pockets
1834 2011-05-21 07:38:36 <diki> 21 mill is for now not enough, and if more poeple join--hella'va lot less
1835 2011-05-21 07:38:48 <Namegduf> diki: That assumes each person should have a coin or multiple coins
1836 2011-05-21 07:38:55 <Namegduf> You can work in milli-BTC perfectly effectively
1837 2011-05-21 07:39:06 <jfksir> what i don't get is how the fees are gonna work when it's done
1838 2011-05-21 07:39:08 <diki> only if the price to other currencies is high
1839 2011-05-21 07:39:16 <someguy798> if only one person to a coin, then stuff cost fractions of bitcoins?
1840 2011-05-21 07:39:18 <diki> otherwise...those mBTC would do shit
1841 2011-05-21 07:39:19 <jfksir> 0.01 could be worth a lot someday
1842 2011-05-21 07:39:23 <Namegduf> diki: If there's a shortage, then the price will rise.
1843 2011-05-21 07:39:28 <Namegduf> Naturally.
1844 2011-05-21 07:39:28 <diki> it could be worth dirt afaik
1845 2011-05-21 07:39:38 <Namegduf> The shortage will even be expressed AS the increase in value
1846 2011-05-21 07:40:04 C4awayer has joined
1847 2011-05-21 07:40:09 <Namegduf> If more demand arrives, individual BTCs will get more valuable, exchange rates go up
1848 2011-05-21 07:40:27 <Namegduf> People can start dealing in gradually smaller and smaller amounts
1849 2011-05-21 07:40:36 <diki> in my country there arent many people that know
1850 2011-05-21 07:40:37 <lfm> and bitcoin is mainly for the net, for world wide trade, not really for corner grocery stuff
1851 2011-05-21 07:40:44 TripleF has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1852 2011-05-21 07:40:49 <diki> a forum that does have a thread about it is very active with about 10 persons in it
1853 2011-05-21 07:40:50 <jfksir> Namegduf: but will teh fees also go down?
1854 2011-05-21 07:40:56 <diki> 58 pages
1855 2011-05-21 07:40:58 <Namegduf> jfksir: I believe so, yes.
1856 2011-05-21 07:41:02 <jfksir> how?
1857 2011-05-21 07:41:22 <Namegduf> jfksir: I don't know exactly how fees work right now, but they are fluid and intended to do that.
1858 2011-05-21 07:41:30 <Namegduf> Have to ask someone else.
1859 2011-05-21 07:41:47 <Namegduf> diki: Then there won't be more demand
1860 2011-05-21 07:41:47 <ersi> fuck yes, under 6$ again
1861 2011-05-21 07:41:52 <lfm> jfksir: we dont really know how the fees will shake out over time as yet, it is still early days
1862 2011-05-21 07:42:04 C4away has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1863 2011-05-21 07:42:05 <jfksir> i'm having this problem now in that i had all these tiny transactions sent to me by my old pool, and now they are huge to send anything
1864 2011-05-21 07:42:11 <jfksir> and the fee is super high
1865 2011-05-21 07:42:24 <jfksir> cause they include so many blocks or something
1866 2011-05-21 07:42:26 <Namegduf> 0.01 is not a lot at the moment
1867 2011-05-21 07:42:35 <Namegduf> It's cause you keep checking out tiny amounts
1868 2011-05-21 07:42:36 <jfksir> it's asking me for .1
1869 2011-05-21 07:42:40 <Namegduf> Stop doing that, wait until it builds up
1870 2011-05-21 07:42:43 <Namegduf> .1 is weird.
1871 2011-05-21 07:42:46 <jfksir> yeah, it wasn't by choice
1872 2011-05-21 07:42:50 <Namegduf> Maybe it's just your pool ripping you off
1873 2011-05-21 07:42:52 <diki> i actually learnt about Bitcoins when the thread appeared on OCN
1874 2011-05-21 07:43:05 <jfksir> well, maybe it was i dunno but i don't use that pool anymore
1875 2011-05-21 07:43:06 <diki> i am glad i was not anywhere else then
1876 2011-05-21 07:43:10 <diki> as it was a morning...
1877 2011-05-21 07:43:50 <jfksir> i'm gonna get bitcoin.exe running from source, and see if i can send without any fee
1878 2011-05-21 07:44:06 <jfksir> let that fail a few times - just curious to see what will happen
1879 2011-05-21 07:44:18 <diki> where do the fees go actually?
1880 2011-05-21 07:44:22 ezl has joined
1881 2011-05-21 07:44:23 <diki> to whom do they go?
1882 2011-05-21 07:44:33 <jfksir> fees go to the block that logs your transaction
1883 2011-05-21 07:44:40 <lfm> diki they go to the miners
1884 2011-05-21 07:44:42 <jfksir> so they get a little more than 50 coins
1885 2011-05-21 07:44:47 <diki> thus more bitcoins for the person that mined the block?
1886 2011-05-21 07:44:55 <jfksir> typically it's like 50.06 or something atm
1887 2011-05-21 07:45:08 <diki> thus, if it's a pool then they get a lot more than they should
1888 2011-05-21 07:45:16 TripleF has joined
1889 2011-05-21 07:45:17 <diki> and i am refering to deepbit
1890 2011-05-21 07:45:19 <lfm> the fees are still relativly minor compared to the coinbase 50 btc
1891 2011-05-21 07:45:31 <diki> when will a block be worth 25 bitcoins?
1892 2011-05-21 07:45:38 <Namegduf> "In a long time", I think.
1893 2011-05-21 07:45:43 <diki> how long?
1894 2011-05-21 07:45:49 <lfm> diki in a couple years from now ya
1895 2011-05-21 07:45:54 <diki> I remember saying that in 2008 and yet here we are 2011
1896 2011-05-21 07:45:59 <jfksir> it's possible the BTC economy could grow so much that the fees actually are more than 50 per block
1897 2011-05-21 07:46:00 <lfm> every 4 years it is halfed
1898 2011-05-21 07:46:10 <diki> that sucks
1899 2011-05-21 07:46:15 <jfksir> but that could take decades
1900 2011-05-21 07:46:24 <diki> it could take months afaik
1901 2011-05-21 07:46:32 <lfm> jfksir: right so we dont worry about it much
1902 2011-05-21 07:46:55 <erbs> sup my mang
1903 2011-05-21 07:46:58 lulzplzkthx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1904 2011-05-21 07:47:07 <jfksir> in the future everyone's phone will have a little sha256 chip that hashes
1905 2011-05-21 07:47:57 <jfksir> the bitcoin network will be all custom hardware
1906 2011-05-21 07:48:17 <lfm> maybe, maybe not
1907 2011-05-21 07:48:18 <Namegduf> God no
1908 2011-05-21 07:48:23 <Namegduf> Battery life please
1909 2011-05-21 07:48:39 <Namegduf> There are more important things than 0.0001 BTC a day
1910 2011-05-21 07:48:53 <jfksir> well, i dunno about phones, but someone will make chips Real Soon Now
1911 2011-05-21 07:49:01 <lfm> at home on your desk tho, more likely
1912 2011-05-21 07:49:13 <jfksir> silicon designed to solve blocks
1913 2011-05-21 07:49:26 <ersi> jfksir: It's already been done.
1914 2011-05-21 07:49:35 <jfksir> ersi: has it?
1915 2011-05-21 07:49:39 <diki> can someone define the word minted?
1916 2011-05-21 07:49:39 <lfm> jfksir: someone already is doing it. watch for the name ArtForz around here
1917 2011-05-21 07:49:42 <ersi> ArtForzZz has a bunch of asics
1918 2011-05-21 07:49:42 <diki> i keep seeing it a lot
1919 2011-05-21 07:49:48 <jfksir> isn't that FPGAs?
1920 2011-05-21 07:49:53 <jfksir> that's not the same thing at all
1921 2011-05-21 07:50:25 has joined
1922 2011-05-21 07:50:45 <lfm> they're asics with a custom mask layer to program them
1923 2011-05-21 07:51:11 <ersi> please educate us on the differance. When there's a 'video decoder chip' on a board, it's usually asic's, mind you the more fancy kinds.. but still
1924 2011-05-21 07:51:18 <lfm> he is looking at some new fpga chips coming out now tho
1925 2011-05-21 07:51:24 <jfksir> interesting
1926 2011-05-21 07:51:24 <erbs> sup duuuuude
1927 2011-05-21 07:51:53 <lfm> ersi, Art designed his own asic specially for mining
1928 2011-05-21 07:52:15 <jfksir> i guess he'll leave us all in the dust then
1929 2011-05-21 07:52:57 lulzplzkthx has joined
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1931 2011-05-21 07:53:26 <lfm> jfksir: not really he never had more than about 30% of the net production afaik, and it is much less by comparison now since the net keeps growing
1932 2011-05-21 07:53:36 <wumpus> nah, GPUs are still very effective
1933 2011-05-21 07:54:13 <jfksir> i wonder what the power efficiency difference will end up being between his chip and the current ATI's
1934 2011-05-21 07:54:24 <Namegduf> "high", I believe.
1935 2011-05-21 07:54:36 <lfm> mainly just that his asics are much more power efficient than GPUS
1936 2011-05-21 07:54:42 <wumpus> well specific chips will always be more power-efficient than programmable ones
1937 2011-05-21 07:54:46 <wumpus> exactly
1938 2011-05-21 07:54:53 <jfksir> i just hope my landlord doesn't notice the spike in the power bill hehe
1939 2011-05-21 07:55:27 <wumpus> on the other hand it's a huge investment to make custom chips and it will take some time to earn it back
1940 2011-05-21 07:55:32 C4awayer has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1941 2011-05-21 07:55:39 <wumpus> by that time you can have earned back a lot of gpus :p
1942 2011-05-21 07:55:41 Marcel has joined
1943 2011-05-21 07:55:45 <lfm> jfksir: I think it was about 1/30th the power per block found or something
1944 2011-05-21 07:56:14 <jfksir> wumpus: the difference also with chips though is once he has a working one, the marginal cost is tiny
1945 2011-05-21 07:56:34 <ArtForzZz> not quite
1946 2011-05-21 07:56:36 <ArtForzZz> I'm using structured ASIC
1947 2011-05-21 07:56:40 <jfksir> i mean, he might be able to buy the capacity of 1000 gpus for the cost of a few dozen
1948 2011-05-21 07:56:49 <ArtForzZz> cost/unit a bit better than FPGAs, still loses to GPUs
1949 2011-05-21 07:56:50 <lfm> jfksir: there is that problem that the GPUs keep getting better too tho
1950 2011-05-21 07:57:33 <diki> i think intel's 1000 core chip can produce about 600 mhash/s
1951 2011-05-21 07:57:44 <ArtForzZz> lfm: yup
1952 2011-05-21 07:58:02 <jfksir> ArtForzZz: isn't that a lot just a function of how many you're making?
1953 2011-05-21 07:58:04 <lfm> there ya are, your ears burning?
1954 2011-05-21 07:58:10 <wumpus> on the other hand, optimizing hashing performance does not feature very high on the wish list of GPU vendors
1955 2011-05-21 07:58:11 <ArtForzZz> jfksir: nope
1956 2011-05-21 07:58:17 C4awayer has joined
1957 2011-05-21 07:58:23 <jfksir> well, that's comforting heh
1958 2011-05-21 07:58:29 <ArtForzZz> structured asic pricing is more similar to FPGAs than std cell
1959 2011-05-21 07:58:38 <ArtForzZz> very low NRE, high cost/unit
1960 2011-05-21 07:58:44 <wumpus> which means that they might make new generations of GPUs that are much faster at 3d rendering but not at integer hashing stuff
1961 2011-05-21 07:59:02 oneman has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1962 2011-05-21 07:59:13 <ArtForzZz> well, the basic logic units are exactly like FPGAs
1963 2011-05-21 07:59:14 <jfksir> how is 'structured asic' different than having some big fab in korea make you a million of some chip you design?
1964 2011-05-21 07:59:16 <diki> i have to ask. Could my stale shares be caused by my core degrading and producing wrong hashes?
1965 2011-05-21 07:59:20 <lfm> wumpus: thats right, it might happen
1966 2011-05-21 07:59:21 <ArtForzZz> a sea of LUTs and FFs
1967 2011-05-21 07:59:49 <ArtForzZz> just that instead of a programmable routing matrix taking up 2/3 of the chip, the routing is hardwired in a few metal layers
1968 2011-05-21 08:00:00 sytse_ has joined
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1970 2011-05-21 08:00:12 sytse has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1971 2011-05-21 08:00:59 <ArtForzZz> which obviously saves a lot of silicon area compared to FPGAs
1972 2011-05-21 08:01:12 <sgstair> ArtForzZz: did you use eASIC, or some other provider?
1973 2011-05-21 08:01:30 <wumpus> I wonder though, if you decide to produce specific SHA256 bruteforcing chips, whether it makes more sense to sell them or use them for mining
1974 2011-05-21 08:01:43 <ArtForzZz> other provider, small sASIC arm of a large semi fab
1975 2011-05-21 08:01:43 <jfksir> ArtForzZz: do you think a full blow custom designed chip would preform just somewhat better or waaay better?
1976 2011-05-21 08:01:44 <wumpus> I think the first
1977 2011-05-21 08:01:56 <ArtForzZz> eASICs architecture isn't well suited to sha256 :/
1978 2011-05-21 08:02:04 <sgstair> ah.
1979 2011-05-21 08:02:04 <ArtForzZz> jfksir: order of magnitude better
1980 2011-05-21 08:02:44 <wumpus> there will be other clients that want hash bruteforcing power that are not bitcoin related, and you know what they say, in a gold rush you can make more profit selling pickaxes
1981 2011-05-21 08:02:49 <jfksir> i wonder if there are little companies forming to make chips like that right now
1982 2011-05-21 08:02:58 <ArtForzZz> well, for cost per mhash in large volume
1983 2011-05-21 08:03:06 ar4s has joined
1984 2011-05-21 08:03:10 <wumpus> me too jfksir
1985 2011-05-21 08:03:12 <ArtForzZz> power efficiency wise, theres not that much headroom
1986 2011-05-21 08:03:41 <jfksir> there's gotta be some rich mulit-millionaire nerd who is dropping a couple million on it right now
1987 2011-05-21 08:03:44 <ArtForzZz> maybe another factor of 3-4 over sASIC = about a factor of 5 over FPGA
1988 2011-05-21 08:03:53 <wumpus> that's still nice
1989 2011-05-21 08:04:07 <ArtForzZz> yep
1990 2011-05-21 08:04:27 <Namegduf> Is it possible to run the bitcoind persistently in the background, while shutting down and starting the UI?
1991 2011-05-21 08:05:16 <wumpus> in my book 'not much headroom' is like 90%
1992 2011-05-21 08:05:33 <jfksir> maybe someone will create a Money Jack (like magic jack) - you just plug it in and it makes $$$$!
1993 2011-05-21 08:05:35 <wumpus> not quadrupling the hashes/W
1994 2011-05-21 08:05:37 <jfksir> they could sell it on tv!
1995 2011-05-21 08:05:42 <wumpus> whaha
1996 2011-05-21 08:05:57 <jfksir> you could get the slapchop guy
1997 2011-05-21 08:06:07 <ArtForzZz> wumpus: considering cpu->gpu cut power/hash by a factor of > 20, and GPU -> FPGA is another factor of 10, another factor of 3-4 isn't *that* impressive
1998 2011-05-21 08:06:16 <wumpus> people are already calling bitcoin a scam, jfksir
1999 2011-05-21 08:06:44 <wumpus> ArtForzZz: yes, you're right if you compare to those improvements
2000 2011-05-21 08:07:02 <jfksir> shouldn't everyone have a Money Jack in every plug in their home?
2001 2011-05-21 08:07:15 <Namegduf> I buy extension cables
2002 2011-05-21 08:07:22 <Namegduf> And daisychain them.
2003 2011-05-21 08:07:34 <wumpus> don't forget it should make a jackpot noise on every generated block
2004 2011-05-21 08:07:35 <diki> Zomg...
2005 2011-05-21 08:07:44 <jfksir> order now, and we'll include the Money Strip - an extension cable with enough room to plug in 6 Money Jacks (a $49.99 value!)
2006 2011-05-21 08:07:45 <diki> i had a mind blowing thought in my braib
2007 2011-05-21 08:07:48 <diki> *brain
2008 2011-05-21 08:07:48 GarrettB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2009 2011-05-21 08:08:03 <diki> I think i know how to help the manga/anime community
2010 2011-05-21 08:08:06 <ArtForzZz> I liked the braib better
2011 2011-05-21 08:08:11 <diki> Hiring translators via BTC
2012 2011-05-21 08:08:21 <jfksir> Namegduf: yeah and trip your curcuit breaker, too
2013 2011-05-21 08:08:29 <wumpus> jfksir: haha this is like idiocracy
2014 2011-05-21 08:10:24 <Namegduf> wumpus: Sleep? WHo needs sleep?
2015 2011-05-21 08:10:38 <Namegduf> Not me when I have constant jackpot noises
2016 2011-05-21 08:10:46 <jfksir> lol
2017 2011-05-21 08:11:19 <wumpus> exactly, you're too important too sleep because you need to listen to the sounds of getting rich!
2018 2011-05-21 08:11:29 <Namegduf> Yes!
2019 2011-05-21 08:13:07 <wumpus> and the bitcoin wallet should also make clunking noises like a real wallet full of gold coins
2020 2011-05-21 08:13:45 mosimo has joined
2021 2011-05-21 08:13:47 <wumpus> maybe even add the sound of pickaxes while mining
2022 2011-05-21 08:13:52 <wumpus> likein an MMO
2023 2011-05-21 08:14:16 <jfksir> i know
2024 2011-05-21 08:14:32 <jfksir> you could make minecraft the free gift at the end of the infomercial
2025 2011-05-21 08:14:32 <Namegduf> And we need bitbills.
2026 2011-05-21 08:14:35 <Namegduf> Not for exchange.
2027 2011-05-21 08:14:37 <Namegduf> That's silly.
2028 2011-05-21 08:14:39 <Namegduf> I wish to swim in them
2029 2011-05-21 08:14:45 <Namegduf> And sleep on them
2030 2011-05-21 08:14:47 <Namegduf> Like a dragon
2031 2011-05-21 08:14:55 <Namegduf> But at least 25% less fictional
2032 2011-05-21 08:15:10 <jfksir> scrooge mcduck or whatever
2033 2011-05-21 08:16:12 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2034 2011-05-21 08:16:36 <jfksir> i wonder what it would take to get a ghetto Money Jack together to sell
2035 2011-05-21 08:17:08 <sgstair> ArtForzZz: I saw your description of the system a few days ago; since then I've been wondering if you tried running a much longer pipeline with 8bit adders - it seems like such an approach could use a lot less logic and run at a higher clockrate, though uses more flipflops of course
2036 2011-05-21 08:17:20 <wumpus> not much, but you need to be fast, before the difficulty is so high that you can't get big theoretical amounts of money out of it anymore
2037 2011-05-21 08:17:41 <ArtForzZz> sgstair: err... no.
2038 2011-05-21 08:17:58 <ArtForzZz> it would work, you'd need *millions* of flipflops
2039 2011-05-21 08:19:09 <wumpus> jfksir: you could base the first version simply on GPUs
2040 2011-05-21 08:19:52 <wumpus> then offer better versions as you go on
2041 2011-05-21 08:20:02 <jfksir> totally
2042 2011-05-21 08:20:21 <wumpus> the newest in pickaxe technology
2043 2011-05-21 08:20:22 <jfksir> just have them connect to a local wireless or something
2044 2011-05-21 08:20:48 <jfksir> then you log in on my website and claim your bitcoins as you earn them
2045 2011-05-21 08:21:10 <jfksir> there we go - bitcoin.exe running from source :)
2046 2011-05-21 08:21:36 <jfksir> now i can plan my evil takeover of the bitcoin network with the buffer overrun i found...
2047 2011-05-21 08:22:01 <jfksir> or not heh
2048 2011-05-21 08:23:39 AAA_awright has joined
2049 2011-05-21 08:24:23 <sgstair> ArtForzZz: I don't see how it would? Theoretically you could pipeline it to a ripple add and that would be pretty simple and huge... But 8bit or 16bit might be more efficient than 32bit
2050 2011-05-21 08:24:29 <wumpus> if you can market it right I don't think you'll need to take a risk to take over the network, money will already be rolling in
2051 2011-05-21 08:24:41 <ArtForzZz> sgstair: that means you need 4 pipeline stages per adder
2052 2011-05-21 08:25:38 gribble has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2053 2011-05-21 08:25:43 <ArtForzZz> and you still have to pipeline the big add as even with only 8 bit adders, a 7-input adder tree has quite a long ripple carry path
2054 2011-05-21 08:26:13 <sgstair> I mainly mean to further pipeline the adds into smaller chunks
2055 2011-05-21 08:26:16 <jfksir> so - does bitcoin.exe try to consolidate your smaller bitcoing slices when you send money?
2056 2011-05-21 08:26:19 <ArtForzZz> yes
2057 2011-05-21 08:26:39 <ArtForzZz> and for each added pipeleine stage, your round needs another 768 FFs or so
2058 2011-05-21 08:26:52 <ArtForzZz> times 122 rounds, that adds up quick
2059 2011-05-21 08:27:01 <sgstair> :)
2060 2011-05-21 08:27:03 <wumpus> jfksir: yes it sends from multiple addresses if needed
2061 2011-05-21 08:27:19 <jfksir> but how does it pick?
2062 2011-05-21 08:27:21 <sgstair> did you run the comparison of logic usage & complexity for say 32bit vs 16bit though?
2063 2011-05-21 08:27:29 <wumpus> I don't know
2064 2011-05-21 08:27:48 <gmaxwell> can you stack multiple runs in the pipe and share the non-adder logic as the adders take their N steps to go through?
2065 2011-05-21 08:27:56 <sgstair> I admit I haven't started on this yet, but it sounds like an interesting thing to try sometime
2066 2011-05-21 08:28:00 <jfksir> i guess i could just add stuff to make it dump out the transaction it makes
2067 2011-05-21 08:28:03 gribble has joined
2068 2011-05-21 08:28:17 <ArtForzZz> yeah, sounds fun to try
2069 2011-05-21 08:28:47 <jfksir> so ArtForzZz do you design chip stuff as a job, or are you a student or academic or soemthing?
2070 2011-05-21 08:28:51 <ArtForzZz> soundls like it should make for a rather big, but fast as fuck single-round eninge on FPGA
2071 2011-05-21 08:29:21 * sgstair has some fpgas around, but no time yet
2072 2011-05-21 08:29:54 <ArtForzZz> in my day job I mainly do PLC stuff and integration for industrial machines
2073 2011-05-21 08:31:05 <jfksir> sounds like fun
2074 2011-05-21 08:31:16 <ArtForzZz> yeah, it's quite challenging
2075 2011-05-21 08:31:18 <TD_> artforz has a day job?
2076 2011-05-21 08:31:28 TD has quit (Disconnected by services)
2077 2011-05-21 08:31:28 TD_ is now known as TD
2078 2011-05-21 08:31:34 <jfksir> i've often thought about getting into programming more industrial stuff
2079 2011-05-21 08:31:41 <TD> you, sir, are amazingly productive
2080 2011-05-21 08:31:43 TD[work]_ has joined
2081 2011-05-21 08:31:45 <ArtForzZz> well, day/night/whenever I feel like it job
2082 2011-05-21 08:31:57 <sgstair> those are the best kind :)
2083 2011-05-21 08:32:09 <ArtForzZz> flexible hours ftw!
2084 2011-05-21 08:33:31 <wumpus> yeah those are the best
2085 2011-05-21 08:34:13 <ArtForzZz> well, except when theres "fun" with final testing or (as usual...) problems on-site when the customers existing systems arent quite what it said in the spec
2086 2011-05-21 08:34:21 <wumpus> unless flexible means you have to handle escalations at 4hr in the morning
2087 2011-05-21 08:34:38 <erbs> heyy its padded, so no messin up ya door
2088 2011-05-21 08:38:33 <ArtForzZz> or when our MEs overlook "small" things like mounting locations for homing sensors *headdesk*
2089 2011-05-21 08:39:06 Tukotih has joined
2090 2011-05-21 08:40:18 someguy798 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2091 2011-05-21 08:40:43 <ArtForzZz> that one was fun, magicked shit so we could demo it
2092 2011-05-21 08:41:24 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2093 2011-05-21 08:41:52 mologie has joined
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2097 2011-05-21 08:56:08 <jfksir> so from what i can gather from the code, i can consolidate all my small amounts by doing transactions small enough to be free
2098 2011-05-21 08:56:18 <jfksir> and if i'm rejected doing that, i can wait until later
2099 2011-05-21 08:58:33 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2100 2011-05-21 09:00:29 <wumpus> jfksir: but what would you gain by doing that?
2101 2011-05-21 09:00:45 <jfksir> 0.2 btc
2102 2011-05-21 09:00:49 <jfksir> err 0.1
2103 2011-05-21 09:01:05 <jfksir> apparently all my little amounts make for a large transaction
2104 2011-05-21 09:01:18 <jfksir> and i want to see if i can avoid the fee just for fun
2105 2011-05-21 09:01:19 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
2106 2011-05-21 09:01:48 <wumpus> ok cool
2107 2011-05-21 09:02:19 <jfksir> it seems to have this weird thing where the price goes up as the block fills
2108 2011-05-21 09:02:31 <jfksir> that's the pending block being solved, i guess?
2109 2011-05-21 09:04:24 AStove has joined
2110 2011-05-21 09:04:36 <jfksir> bleh i can't seem to send anything not over the size limit
2111 2011-05-21 09:04:38 <jfksir> lame
2112 2011-05-21 09:11:37 tabsa has joined
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2114 2011-05-21 09:12:25 sytse has joined
2115 2011-05-21 09:13:41 <jfksir> well, lets see what happens - compiled a version that always puts 0 fee into any transaction it creates
2116 2011-05-21 09:15:05 <jfksir> i wonder what happens if it just sits there and is never picked up
2117 2011-05-21 09:21:29 gribble has joined
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2122 2011-05-21 09:36:17 <vegard> ;;bc,mtgox
2123 2011-05-21 09:36:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.92,"low":5.5772,"vol":52523,"buy":5.6493,"sell":5.7,"last":5.6454}}
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2128 2011-05-21 09:47:39 <molecular> jfksir, your tx will be picked up eventually, see: http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ <- only 5 unconfirmed tx, hmm, should be getting through rather quickly
2129 2011-05-21 09:48:12 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ping
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2132 2011-05-21 09:57:26 <jaromil> gmoin / shabbat shalom / assalamaleikum everyone
2133 2011-05-21 09:57:39 <jaromil> any thoughts about the autotools yet?
2134 2011-05-21 09:58:23 Aexoden has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2135 2011-05-21 09:58:38 <jaromil> FYI i got a bit impatient and desired to continue on my development ideas
2136 2011-05-21 09:58:42 <jaromil> http://gitorious.org/freecoin/freecoin
2137 2011-05-21 09:59:02 <jaromil> i don't consider this as a fork yet and i'm available to file things in pull requests
2138 2011-05-21 09:59:20 tasha2 has joined
2139 2011-05-21 09:59:58 <jaromil> features include: autotools, swig bindings to python, removal of wx GUI
2140 2011-05-21 10:00:11 <UukGoblin> jaromil, cool
2141 2011-05-21 10:00:40 <jaromil> this version is also working well with http://gitorious.org/freecoin/spesmilo
2142 2011-05-21 10:00:59 <UukGoblin> jaromil, why "configurable genesis code"? are you planning to fork more chains?
2143 2011-05-21 10:01:01 guy_ has joined
2144 2011-05-21 10:01:27 <jaromil> UukGoblin: i am planning to document the creation of coins and support sacarlson's experiemnts, more precisely
2145 2011-05-21 10:01:54 <UukGoblin> "sacarlson's experiments"?
2146 2011-05-21 10:01:55 <jaromil> i don't intend to bootstrap any new currency myself, yet we are setting up a consultancy and it might be interesting for clients
2147 2011-05-21 10:02:05 <tasha2> hi
2148 2011-05-21 10:02:22 <jaromil> UukGoblin: that branch is mostly code written by sacarlson
2149 2011-05-21 10:02:27 <UukGoblin> ah ok
2150 2011-05-21 10:02:28 <UukGoblin> cool
2151 2011-05-21 10:02:46 <jaromil> you can see his repo on gitorious, he has made the 'weed' experimental currency
2152 2011-05-21 10:02:49 noagendamarket has joined
2153 2011-05-21 10:02:50 <jaromil> ops on github
2154 2011-05-21 10:02:53 <UukGoblin> I need one simple feature for timestamping with pay-to-miner ;-]
2155 2011-05-21 10:03:28 <tasha2> any preferences on good PHP library for bitcoin projects?
2156 2011-05-21 10:04:39 <UukGoblin> also, 'sendmany' and 'listaccounts' are broken ;-]
2157 2011-05-21 10:06:18 <Astriks> I have found an possible exploit in the new irc split channel bootstrapping
2158 2011-05-21 10:07:10 <sipa> jaromil: autotools will probably be merged for 0.4.0
2159 2011-05-21 10:07:19 <sipa> (the version after 0.3.22)
2160 2011-05-21 10:07:46 <jaromil> sipa: ok! i'm available if needed, commenting on the pull request sends me an email so i can be responsive enough
2161 2011-05-21 10:08:22 <jaromil> after that i plan to repack the swig bindings made together with caedes and file a new pull req :D
2162 2011-05-21 10:08:43 <jaromil> it also modifies the core bitcoin code very minimally as you can imagine
2163 2011-05-21 10:08:44 <sipa> swig?
2164 2011-05-21 10:09:15 <sipa> A tool that easily allows a developer to wrap C/C++ functions for use with scripting languages. Currently supports Python, Perl, and Tcl.
2165 2011-05-21 10:09:18 <sipa> ok
2166 2011-05-21 10:10:00 <jaromil> yes. we have a test script in python which works
2167 2011-05-21 10:10:02 <jaromil> is pretty neat
2168 2011-05-21 10:10:16 metonymous has quit (Quit: metonymous)
2169 2011-05-21 10:10:19 <sipa> nice
2170 2011-05-21 10:10:21 <jaromil> you can do AppInit and then call functions around
2171 2011-05-21 10:10:28 <jaromil> the functions keep the same naming scheme
2172 2011-05-21 10:12:29 <tasha2> so I've been wondering about software for a bitcoin faucet like system... but more generic
2173 2011-05-21 10:12:56 <tasha2> something that can be easily integrated into existing websites, and track users ' actions ' for rewards
2174 2011-05-21 10:13:09 <tasha2> anything like that around, open source?
2175 2011-05-21 10:13:19 <doublec> you'd need to be more specific
2176 2011-05-21 10:14:07 <tasha2> for example, an english to klingon translation dictionary. if you add a new klingon word, you get .00X coins
2177 2011-05-21 10:14:46 <molecular> tasha2, you know witcoin?
2178 2011-05-21 10:14:52 <tasha2> based on a faucet-donation model..
2179 2011-05-21 10:14:55 <molecular> tasha2, I doubt it's opensource, though
2180 2011-05-21 10:14:56 <tasha2> nope, what is witcoin?
2181 2011-05-21 10:15:17 <molecular> http://witcoin.com
2182 2011-05-21 10:15:39 <molecular> if you add a topic/comment, you can get btc for replies, upvotes
2183 2011-05-21 10:15:55 <tasha2> yes, something like that
2184 2011-05-21 10:16:28 <tasha2> but also the backend... the incoming BTC
2185 2011-05-21 10:16:36 <molecular> you could ask noagendamarket about the code
2186 2011-05-21 10:16:42 <tasha2> in a donation model.. where the more people donate, the more is in the pool to payout
2187 2011-05-21 10:17:32 <tasha2> i smell a new project
2188 2011-05-21 10:17:46 <UukGoblin> hahah listaccounts now lists my test1 account to have -0.00000001
2189 2011-05-21 10:17:48 <molecular> tasha2, so you want to sponsor the userbase using the donations based on positive user actions?
2190 2011-05-21 10:17:48 <tasha2> i've been wanting to try out Git also
2191 2011-05-21 10:18:03 <tasha2> molecular: yup
2192 2011-05-21 10:18:15 <molecular> who's donating?
2193 2011-05-21 10:18:21 <molecular> also the userbase?
2194 2011-05-21 10:18:24 <tasha2> anyone, yes
2195 2011-05-21 10:18:45 <tasha2> if no one donates at first, the system is empty, and no one gets paid
2196 2011-05-21 10:18:45 <molecular> and you want like... a drupal plugin or sth to facilitate that?
2197 2011-05-21 10:18:59 <tasha2> nah, a nice PHP object that can be integrated into other things
2198 2011-05-21 10:19:13 <molecular> isn't "nice php object" an oxymoron?
2199 2011-05-21 10:19:15 <tasha2> hehe
2200 2011-05-21 10:19:32 skeledrew1 has joined
2201 2011-05-21 10:19:38 <tasha2> s/nice/workable/
2202 2011-05-21 10:19:42 <molecular> hehe
2203 2011-05-21 10:20:06 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2204 2011-05-21 10:20:07 <molecular> maybe you can have more thoughts on this and then spec the functionality of the desired object... then drop 10 BTC on the table to have it implemented
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2206 2011-05-21 10:20:13 <noagendamarket> might be news on witcoin being os soon
2207 2011-05-21 10:20:24 <molecular> "being os"?
2208 2011-05-21 10:20:34 <noagendamarket> open source
2209 2011-05-21 10:20:37 <tasha2> oooh
2210 2011-05-21 10:20:44 <tasha2> what is it written in?
2211 2011-05-21 10:20:47 <molecular> noagendamarket, shit, you just deprived me of BTC 10 :)
2212 2011-05-21 10:20:48 x6763 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2213 2011-05-21 10:21:05 <noagendamarket> not really
2214 2011-05-21 10:21:07 <noagendamarket> lol
2215 2011-05-21 10:21:12 <molecular> lol, I know
2216 2011-05-21 10:21:34 <noagendamarket> I only beliebe things when they actually happen
2217 2011-05-21 10:21:42 <noagendamarket> *believe
2218 2011-05-21 10:21:46 <molecular> even then, sometimes there's still doubt ;)
2219 2011-05-21 10:23:04 <UukGoblin> noagendamarket, and how do you know if they actually happened?
2220 2011-05-21 10:23:08 <UukGoblin> maybe it's all in your brainz
2221 2011-05-21 10:23:18 Psylene has joined
2222 2011-05-21 10:26:10 <noagendamarket> Im sure i will knwo about it :)
2223 2011-05-21 10:26:52 <tasha2> how is witcoin coming along so far?
2224 2011-05-21 10:27:49 <tasha2> i'm not wit it yet
2225 2011-05-21 10:28:35 <Astriks> is there a windows build for the latest git already?
2226 2011-05-21 10:29:31 <tasha2> ah neat, so one logs into witcoin, then you get your own personal address to send to
2227 2011-05-21 10:29:49 <tasha2> there's no limit to the amount of addresses one can create?
2228 2011-05-21 10:30:57 <sipa> no
2229 2011-05-21 10:31:04 <tasha2> bonus
2230 2011-05-21 10:31:16 <tasha2> that makes tracking incoming payments o much easier
2231 2011-05-21 10:31:29 <tasha2> s/ o / so /
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2235 2011-05-21 10:37:56 fimp has joined
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2237 2011-05-21 10:42:26 <tasha2> time to start with low-level stuff
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2249 2011-05-21 10:58:23 <Astriks> I have found an possible exploit in the new irc split channel bootstrapping...
2250 2011-05-21 11:00:38 <Astriks> also, it's pretty urgent
2251 2011-05-21 11:00:42 <doublec> what is split channel bootstrapping?
2252 2011-05-21 11:00:59 <Astriks> doublec; New clients will join #bitcoinxx
2253 2011-05-21 11:01:05 <Astriks> where xx is 00 til 99
2254 2011-05-21 11:01:13 <Astriks> so there are not 10000 bots in one channel.
2255 2011-05-21 11:01:16 <doublec> ah, interesting
2256 2011-05-21 11:01:24 <doublec> is this in 0.22?
2257 2011-05-21 11:01:24 <Astriks> yes, its sweet
2258 2011-05-21 11:01:31 <Astriks> no, the latest git
2259 2011-05-21 11:01:48 <Astriks> this will reduce server load
2260 2011-05-21 11:01:52 <doublec> Ah ic, latest commit
2261 2011-05-21 11:02:17 <Astriks> it will also recude bw usage on the clients end
2262 2011-05-21 11:02:28 <Astriks> but, i have found a way to 'abuse' it
2263 2011-05-21 11:03:12 <doublec> If I call foo(string(...).c_str())
2264 2011-05-21 11:03:15 <doublec> where foo takes a char*
2265 2011-05-21 11:03:25 <doublec> does the destructor for string delete that char* before foo is called?
2266 2011-05-21 11:03:35 * Astriks hides
2267 2011-05-21 11:03:53 <doublec> I thought there was special rule around temporaries
2268 2011-05-21 11:03:55 <doublec> but I'm not sure
2269 2011-05-21 11:06:07 <doublec> looks like it's ok
2270 2011-05-21 11:06:08 <doublec> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/584824/guaranteed-lifetime-of-temporary-in-c
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2293 2011-05-21 11:46:37 <qethree> in the code for jgarzik's cpuminer, can anyone help me understand how the "data" variable in sha256_generic.c relates to the fields in the block section of the protocol spec wiki page?
2294 2011-05-21 11:47:32 <mtrlt> the first 80 bytes are the block header
2295 2011-05-21 11:47:58 <mtrlt> and the rest is the default sha-256 padding
2296 2011-05-21 11:48:07 Kurtov has joined
2297 2011-05-21 11:48:13 <qethree> cool thanks
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2302 2011-05-21 12:01:35 <qethree> i'm running jgarzik's cpuminer in gdb on SPARC, sitting at a breakpoint in a call to runhash in sha256_generic.c... presumably the version field in the block header (first 4 bytes of address pointed to by "data" argument to runhash) doesn't change frequently.. what would the print format need to be for me to pick out the version?
2303 2011-05-21 12:03:19 <qethree> if i made that sound like i have much of a clue what i'm doing, don't be fooled
2304 2011-05-21 12:03:39 <qethree> i learnt java at uni :(
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2309 2011-05-21 12:06:41 <mtrlt> qethree: version is currently always 1
2310 2011-05-21 12:07:04 <mtrlt> qethree: so pick out a format that results in 1 :P
2311 2011-05-21 12:08:50 <qethree> (gdb) p/t data
2312 2011-05-21 12:08:50 <qethree> $13 = 11111110011001111011111010100000
2313 2011-05-21 12:09:12 <qethree> ...errr
2314 2011-05-21 12:09:28 <mtrlt> are you sure you're looking at the right place
2315 2011-05-21 12:09:41 <mtrlt> oh
2316 2011-05-21 12:10:03 <mtrlt> it might be that the data has only the last 64 bytes of the combined header+padding
2317 2011-05-21 12:10:03 <donny> Can someone help explain why I'm seeing a transaction fee for this transaction: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/7fc3fd51250aaf08b0a8beb8d1add5312473ce6b974a27d3550bb26afc250cbf
2318 2011-05-21 12:10:09 <donny> As far as I can see, it should be free - the total size of the block 3.403 which is under the 4kb limit where transactions of 0.01 should be free regardless of priority
2319 2011-05-21 12:11:15 <qethree> if i do "(gdb) info args" i get, amongst other things: data = (unsigned char *) 0xfe67bea0 "¶U\233\205MÃÂ¥{\032D¹ò"
2320 2011-05-21 12:11:54 <qethree> i'm taking that to be the first four bytes, converted to ascii
2321 2011-05-21 12:11:59 <qethree> ..or something
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2323 2011-05-21 12:12:11 <mtrlt> qethree: dont look at just the first four bytes
2324 2011-05-21 12:12:55 <qethree> mtrlt: i'm looking at the first four because "(gdb) p sizeof(data)" returns "$15 = 4"
2325 2011-05-21 12:13:13 <mtrlt> well data is a pointer and pointers are 4 bytes
2326 2011-05-21 12:13:19 <mtrlt> :P
2327 2011-05-21 12:13:35 <mtrlt> in 32bit environments, anyway..
2328 2011-05-21 12:13:48 <Diablo-D3> fear my 8 byte pointers!
2329 2011-05-21 12:15:04 <qethree> the protocol doc says that the version field is 4 lots of uint32_t.. so if sizeof(uint32_t) is 4 bytes.. if i do "p/t data" am i only getting the first "lot" of that version field?
2330 2011-05-21 12:15:18 <mtrlt> no you're probably looking at the pointer
2331 2011-05-21 12:15:34 <mtrlt> :<
2332 2011-05-21 12:15:42 <mtrlt> i don't know shit about gdb though
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2334 2011-05-21 12:17:08 <Diablo-D3> well, if its like my miner, data is an array of ints.
2335 2011-05-21 12:17:26 <qethree> data is unsigned char * in cpuminer
2336 2011-05-21 12:17:26 <Diablo-D3> so you have to shift and mask to get the right value
2337 2011-05-21 12:17:35 <Diablo-D3> qethree: huh
2338 2011-05-21 12:17:38 <Diablo-D3> how unoptimum
2339 2011-05-21 12:17:52 <mtrlt> how is it unoptimal :P
2340 2011-05-21 12:17:54 <donny> and another question about priority calculation - say you receive 1 bitcoin at block 100, send 0.2 to a different address at block 150 (and 0.8 goes back to your own address), then send 0.01 at block 160, what is the age used for calculating priority? is it 60 or 10
2341 2011-05-21 12:18:04 <mtrlt> Diablo-D3: you can just cast the uchar* to an uint* and get your data.
2342 2011-05-21 12:18:05 <Diablo-D3> mtrlt: sha256 natively runs on ints
2343 2011-05-21 12:18:18 <Diablo-D3> well yeah, he can just be casting it
2344 2011-05-21 12:18:20 <Diablo-D3> but meh
2345 2011-05-21 12:18:23 <mtrlt> and that's exactly what he's doing
2346 2011-05-21 12:18:23 <mtrlt> ;p
2347 2011-05-21 12:18:33 <Diablo-D3> cant do that in java (which is good)
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2349 2011-05-21 12:18:37 <mtrlt> ha
2350 2011-05-21 12:18:43 <mtrlt> i like my pointer magic
2351 2011-05-21 12:18:45 <mtrlt> tyvm :)
2352 2011-05-21 12:18:51 <Diablo-D3> I did C for a decade
2353 2011-05-21 12:18:55 <Diablo-D3> Im tired of stupid little tricks
2354 2011-05-21 12:19:00 <mtrlt> haha
2355 2011-05-21 12:20:32 <lupine_85> conversions & sane typing > pointer casts
2356 2011-05-21 12:20:58 <lupine_85> void *opaque; always makes me a little cold ;)
2357 2011-05-21 12:21:45 <Diablo-D3> hurray back to 918mhz
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2360 2011-05-21 12:36:22 <sipa> anyone ever considered this: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6284.msg133416#msg133416 ?
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2383 2011-05-21 13:06:20 <sipa> hi TD
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2385 2011-05-21 13:06:26 <TD> hi sipa
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2389 2011-05-21 13:06:50 <sipa> TD: i was wondering what you think about http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6284.msg133416#msg133416
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2391 2011-05-21 13:08:17 <TD> sipa: yes, that's why my proposed solution has fees being paid using "gigahash of work done per BTC"
2392 2011-05-21 13:08:26 <TD> sipa: you don't only pay for inclusion but also burial
2393 2011-05-21 13:08:27 Gui_0 has joined
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2395 2011-05-21 13:09:10 <TD> sipa: there's no cryptographic way (at present) to enforce miners actually do that. however, reputable miners will (and it can be checked). directly submitting transactions to miners means you only have to deal with reputable ones that follow the scheme
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2399 2011-05-21 13:09:26 <sipa> right, indeed
2400 2011-05-21 13:09:58 <TD> sipa: that leads to the problem of merchants having to understand what a "gigahash of work done" means to them which isn't reasonable
2401 2011-05-21 13:10:11 <TD> justmoons proposal of having insurance companies as middlemen solves this problem
2402 2011-05-21 13:10:23 <TD> they abstract away the complexity of judging reversal risk and calcuating how much work done is sufficient
2403 2011-05-21 13:10:52 <TD> i like the idea of spreading fees over successive blocks, but it means a backwards incompatible change to the network which is hard now and will get progressively harder in future
2404 2011-05-21 13:10:56 <TD> and it introduces yet another magic number
2405 2011-05-21 13:11:04 <TD> which is essentially arbitrary
2406 2011-05-21 13:11:10 <sipa> yes, it's not a serious proposal
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2408 2011-05-21 13:11:28 <sipa> just thinking about whether enforceable solutions are possible
2409 2011-05-21 13:11:29 <TD> i think trying to move intelligence out of the network rules and into the market is a better way forward. directly submitting txns means you can negotiate complex deals directly with a set of miners
2410 2011-05-21 13:11:36 <TD> yeah
2411 2011-05-21 13:12:58 <TD> i think we're very close to nailing this problem of downwards fee spirals
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2413 2011-05-21 13:13:44 <TD> it means (yet more) middlemen unfortunately, but at least they are optional and should be a highly competitive market
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2415 2011-05-21 13:14:22 <sipa> i certainly hope so
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2420 2011-05-21 13:23:56 <BlueMatt> does laszlo ever come on irc?
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2430 2011-05-21 13:46:32 <sacarlson> any progress on p2p escrow scripts?
2431 2011-05-21 13:49:08 <sacarlson> I've added another currency to my new site today http://exchange.beertokens.info/ now includes beertokens traded as BEER
2432 2011-05-21 13:52:55 <WakiMiko_> how would i remove a key from my wallet? that is, delete it?
2433 2011-05-21 13:53:27 molecular has joined
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2435 2011-05-21 13:53:41 <sipa> WakiMiko_: you can'
2436 2011-05-21 13:53:42 <sipa> t
2437 2011-05-21 13:54:00 parus has joined
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2439 2011-05-21 13:55:16 <BlueMatt> well you theoretically can manually...
2440 2011-05-21 14:00:04 <TD> sacarlson: i don't think anyone is implementing them today
2441 2011-05-21 14:00:38 <sacarlson> td: well I would love to help in the development
2442 2011-05-21 14:01:09 <TD> have you read the "designing distributed contracts" thread on the forum ?
2443 2011-05-21 14:01:20 <BlueMatt> they should be fairly simple, just a matter of actually writing the code to handle them
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2445 2011-05-21 14:01:51 <TD> hehe, yep, just a small matter of coding :-)
2446 2011-05-21 14:01:55 <TD> famous last words :-)
2447 2011-05-21 14:01:57 <sacarlson> td: I'm not sure I read that one, I read a discution about the posibilities of adding scripts to create escrow
2448 2011-05-21 14:02:01 <TD> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=8821.0
2449 2011-05-21 14:02:08 <TD> if you didn't read it already, start by reading that
2450 2011-05-21 14:02:08 <BlueMatt> hence why no one is writing them...
2451 2011-05-21 14:02:26 <TD> make sure you fully understand it. a good way to check that is to write a design doc.
2452 2011-05-21 14:03:12 BillH has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2453 2011-05-21 14:03:55 <TD> you'd need to think through not just the script aspects but the whole protocol flow
2454 2011-05-21 14:04:03 <sacarlson> td: thanks I never saw that one I'll take a close look at it
2455 2011-05-21 14:04:08 <TD> setting up the transaction. agreeing on a mediator.
2456 2011-05-21 14:04:30 <TD> challenging the mediator to prove ownership of the key
2457 2011-05-21 14:04:34 <TD> it's actually fairly involved
2458 2011-05-21 14:04:58 OtaconEmmerich has left ()
2459 2011-05-21 14:05:03 <sacarlson> td: yes and exciting
2460 2011-05-21 14:06:03 <sacarlson> td: what do you think two months development time?
2461 2011-05-21 14:06:11 <TD> not sure
2462 2011-05-21 14:06:16 <TD> depends on who does it of course :-)
2463 2011-05-21 14:06:18 koolfy has joined
2464 2011-05-21 14:06:30 <sacarlson> td: >>me<< 10 years
2465 2011-05-21 14:06:52 <TD> depends on your motivation and energy really, i guess
2466 2011-05-21 14:06:58 <TD> you can always learn what you need to know
2467 2011-05-21 14:07:10 <TD> if you're serious and do things professionally there are plenty of people who will help you
2468 2011-05-21 14:09:07 pyros1 has joined
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2470 2011-05-21 14:09:30 soossii has joined
2471 2011-05-21 14:09:30 <sacarlson> td: I might just settle on a php coded 3rd party solution until I get smarter
2472 2011-05-21 14:09:35 Titeuf_87 has joined
2473 2011-05-21 14:09:47 <TD> if you just want an escrow service to sell/buy things with look at clearcoin
2474 2011-05-21 14:09:55 Gui_0 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2475 2011-05-21 14:10:01 Gui_0 has joined
2476 2011-05-21 14:10:06 <sacarlson> td: they don't provide the contracts I want
2477 2011-05-21 14:10:12 <TD> what do you want ?
2478 2011-05-21 14:10:21 <sacarlson> td: poker contracts
2479 2011-05-21 14:10:52 <TD> ok. i'm heading out to enjoy the sun for a while. ttyl.
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2490 2011-05-21 14:42:14 <BlueMatt> someone want to grab op on #bitcoin00-74 on lfnet so that http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9240.0 doesnt work
2491 2011-05-21 14:44:25 guy_ has joined
2492 2011-05-21 14:44:55 <sipa> i've got 00-24
2493 2011-05-21 14:46:16 redMBA has joined
2494 2011-05-21 14:46:41 <noagendamarket> why dont you want it to work ?
2495 2011-05-21 14:46:53 <BlueMatt> I mean so the attack that guy pointed out doesnt work
2496 2011-05-21 14:49:03 rubberneck has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
2497 2011-05-21 14:50:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: did you miss 03?
2498 2011-05-21 14:51:54 <sacarlson> wouldn't mulicast for bootstrap make the need for IRC absolete?
2499 2011-05-21 14:52:07 <BlueMatt> yes
2500 2011-05-21 14:52:17 <jgarzik> multicast? where does that work?
2501 2011-05-21 14:52:27 <BlueMatt> and if you get a multicast working that works on ipv4 and ipv6 with all isps...
2502 2011-05-21 14:52:38 <jgarzik> exactly
2503 2011-05-21 14:52:43 <BlueMatt> so I suppose the answer is no
2504 2011-05-21 14:52:55 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I guess mulicast is only supported in ipv6?
2505 2011-05-21 14:53:10 <BlueMatt> technically supported but still doesnt work that well
2506 2011-05-21 14:53:28 <BlueMatt> technically supported on v4 too, but that is only a very small minority of isps
2507 2011-05-21 14:53:31 <jgarzik> ipv6, not multi-cast, that is
2508 2011-05-21 14:53:47 <jgarzik> bitcoin does not support multicast at all
2509 2011-05-21 14:54:05 <BlueMatt> it would be cool, but not really feasible
2510 2011-05-21 14:54:42 <sacarlson> BlueMatt I thought with ipv6 multicast was standard part. you say the ISP don't support mulitcast on ipv6?
2511 2011-05-21 14:54:46 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: btw, how do you typically get in touch with laszlo?
2512 2011-05-21 14:55:17 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: yea its technically standard in the protocol, but unless isps support it well, then it can have qos issues
2513 2011-05-21 14:55:22 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I don't. Those patches went laszlo -> gavin -> me
2514 2011-05-21 14:55:23 <x5x> wasnt multicast not supported on ipv4 because it was too easy to do ddos attacks w ?
2515 2011-05-21 14:55:28 <BlueMatt> arg
2516 2011-05-21 14:55:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: gavin dropped them on me and flew overseas :)
2517 2011-05-21 14:55:42 <x5x> by not supported i mean all routers turned it offr
2518 2011-05-21 14:55:57 <BlueMatt> x5x: no, it wasnt supported because it wasnt invented when v4 came out ;)
2519 2011-05-21 14:56:06 <BlueMatt> let alone had a use
2520 2011-05-21 14:56:16 <x5x> but its been around for a long time
2521 2011-05-21 14:56:19 <x5x> and there are good uses for it
2522 2011-05-21 14:56:22 <x5x> like video streaming
2523 2011-05-21 14:56:50 <BlueMatt> yea but video streaming when the backbone of the arpanet is a couple k dialup modems?
2524 2011-05-21 14:57:21 <sacarlson> so with ipv4-ipv6 tunnel I would think you would get some kind of low bandwidth mulicast to work on most ISP
2525 2011-05-21 14:57:23 <x5x> so nothing that wasnt a good idea back in arpanet exists now ?
2526 2011-05-21 14:57:25 <BlueMatt> that is the kind of time frame you need to be thinkina bout
2527 2011-05-21 14:57:37 <BlueMatt> no, Im saying its not part of ipv4 because of that
2528 2011-05-21 14:57:46 <BlueMatt> there is v4-multicast
2529 2011-05-21 14:57:55 <BlueMatt> it just never caught on because isps didnt feel like supporting it
2530 2011-05-21 14:58:00 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2532 2011-05-21 14:58:28 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: frankly Ive never done too much digging on the topic, I just know that it is a somewhat experimental feature, even if its technically part of the spec
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2534 2011-05-21 14:58:38 <BlueMatt> (ie doesnt work 100%)
2535 2011-05-21 14:58:49 <BlueMatt> but by all means, try it
2536 2011-05-21 14:58:59 <BlueMatt> (but port bitcoin to ipv6 first :))
2537 2011-05-21 14:59:43 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: yes I noticed that, no ipv6 support yet or I did see a line that sounded like they were thinking of adding it
2538 2011-05-21 15:00:18 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: well there is support for it in the protocol, ie ips are stored with enough bits and such
2539 2011-05-21 15:00:23 dave has joined
2540 2011-05-21 15:00:26 <BlueMatt> but its never been implemented in the client
2541 2011-05-21 15:00:41 <BlueMatt> luke has a patch that gets it started, but doesnt work yet
2542 2011-05-21 15:00:48 <BlueMatt> and I dont think hes touched it in a couple months
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2545 2011-05-21 15:04:46 <sacarlson> I had setup a 100% ipv6 network on a lan once and found I could only get linux to work 100% on it, windows XP was also posible to setup with third party software only. seems windows later version I couldn't even get them to work if I tried without both ipv4 and ipv6 stack
2546 2011-05-21 15:05:34 <sacarlson> so without windows moving tward ipv6 support it might be some time before ISP ever support it
2547 2011-05-21 15:05:34 <BlueMatt> hm, well Im all dual-stack here, no problems on any machine Ive ever seen, though single-stack ipv6 Ive never tried...
2548 2011-05-21 15:05:46 <BlueMatt> no, winxp+ supports v6
2549 2011-05-21 15:05:56 <BlueMatt> though winxp you have to turn it on manually, or have sp3
2550 2011-05-21 15:05:58 <BlueMatt> iirc
2551 2011-05-21 15:06:13 <BlueMatt> Ive even got v6 on my iphone when Im on wifi
2552 2011-05-21 15:06:42 <sacarlson> BlueMatt yes winxp not only supports v6 it supports it better than vista and win7
2553 2011-05-21 15:06:49 Tritonio has joined
2554 2011-05-21 15:07:00 <BlueMatt> hm, Ive never seen problems with v6 on vista or 7
2555 2011-05-21 15:07:02 ar4s has joined
2556 2011-05-21 15:07:03 <BlueMatt> works out of the box
2557 2011-05-21 15:07:16 redMBA has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2558 2011-05-21 15:07:18 <BlueMatt> though sadly not in vm bridging...
2559 2011-05-21 15:07:25 <BlueMatt> (for odd wifi reasons)
2560 2011-05-21 15:07:55 <sacarlson> BlueMatt vista and probly win7 also needs dual stack only supports to be able to use DNS, it won't support DNS over ipv6
2561 2011-05-21 15:08:21 <BlueMatt> ah, well thats odd
2562 2011-05-21 15:08:30 <BlueMatt> but still there is dual-stack support
2563 2011-05-21 15:08:35 <BlueMatt> which is all that matters for now...
2564 2011-05-21 15:08:54 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: what good is dual stack support when you can only get DNS over ipv4?
2565 2011-05-21 15:09:17 <BlueMatt> well as long as it can lookup aaaa records does it matter if your resolver has to have a v4 address?
2566 2011-05-21 15:09:56 <BlueMatt> realistically...how many v6-only networks exist in the world right now?
2567 2011-05-21 15:10:03 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I guess not or as it seems windows doesn't think so, but I thought part of the move to ipv6 was for security
2568 2011-05-21 15:10:15 <BlueMatt> no
2569 2011-05-21 15:10:34 <BlueMatt> there was really no huge security thing added to v6, aside from slightly better support for ipsec
2570 2011-05-21 15:11:01 <T_X> anyoen having an idea why i'm getting these build-errors for bitcoin? trying to build from github: http://pastebin.com/V3sJXgby
2571 2011-05-21 15:11:03 <BlueMatt> in fact, some argue against v6 for security reasons (mostly because they are too stupid to realize that nat != fw, but whatever)
2572 2011-05-21 15:11:16 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: and a zillion IP's so not lickly some one can scan to find you on a network
2573 2011-05-21 15:11:36 <BlueMatt> well yes, but that was never intent, only positive sideeffect :)
2574 2011-05-21 15:11:58 <BlueMatt> T_X: wx 2.9 is required, not 2.8
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2576 2011-05-21 15:12:18 <T_X> BlueMatt: ah, thank, I forgot about that (again)
2577 2011-05-21 15:12:22 <sacarlson> BlueMatt: I get scanned all the time, not sure how often that would hapen to me if I was 100% ipv6
2578 2011-05-21 15:12:56 <T_X> http://xkcd.com/865/
2579 2011-05-21 15:12:58 <BlueMatt> sacarlson: no, thats a good point, but security through obscurity like that is not smart just use a good fw
2580 2011-05-21 15:13:15 <BlueMatt> bc if someone can work hard, they can get a list of ips on your net anyway
2581 2011-05-21 15:13:56 <sacarlson> ok well that's all I know about that anyway, next subject
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2586 2011-05-21 15:28:31 ezl is now known as bitcointrader
2587 2011-05-21 15:28:49 bitcointrader is now known as ezl
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2591 2011-05-21 15:37:06 <dinox> Having some problems with tcp connections between pushpoold and bitcoind not closing properly => tcp socket owerflow
2592 2011-05-21 15:37:25 ntosme2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2593 2011-05-21 15:37:30 <dinox> It has like 200 open connections right now with state "TIME_WAIT"
2594 2011-05-21 15:37:41 ezl is now known as bitcointrader
2595 2011-05-21 15:39:33 Kiba has joined
2596 2011-05-21 15:40:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: i did
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2605 2011-05-21 15:50:52 tasha2 has joined
2606 2011-05-21 15:50:53 <tasha2> hi
2607 2011-05-21 15:51:01 qethree has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2608 2011-05-21 15:51:04 <tasha2> compiling bitcoind on centos 5.5 is not easy
2609 2011-05-21 15:51:06 wolfspraul has quit (Quit: leaving)
2610 2011-05-21 15:51:25 <sacarlson> tasha2: centos well that's not my brand
2611 2011-05-21 15:51:28 <tasha2> i found a pre-compiled binary for centos 5.5, but it is version 0.3.12
2612 2011-05-21 15:51:48 <sacarlson> tasha2: wow that's old
2613 2011-05-21 15:51:52 <tasha2> indeed
2614 2011-05-21 15:52:00 <tasha2> it kinda works
2615 2011-05-21 15:52:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: isnt it supposed to be 03 not 3?
2616 2011-05-21 15:52:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes :)
2617 2011-05-21 15:52:38 <tasha2> i'm going to do dev on windows+xampp+bitcoind
2618 2011-05-21 15:52:42 <tasha2> at least that'll work
2619 2011-05-21 15:52:55 <sacarlson> tasha2: so if you can find the needed libs it should work, only problem I find is finding wx libs that I just live without
2620 2011-05-21 15:53:11 <tasha2> yup, have to update a lot of packages
2621 2011-05-21 15:53:27 <tasha2> and the yum packages are mostly too old for this compile
2622 2011-05-21 15:53:38 <T_X> okay, next thing, I'm having some trouble compiling miniupnp: http://pastebin.com/47NTw9vq
2623 2011-05-21 15:53:40 <tasha2> i only want command line.. but still need exlibs?
2624 2011-05-21 15:53:45 <tasha2> wxlibs
2625 2011-05-21 15:54:07 <sacarlson> T_X: I just compile that upnp out, not that I should
2626 2011-05-21 15:54:17 <doublec> I don't bother with miniupnp. too much of a pain to build.
2627 2011-05-21 15:54:32 <T_X> hmm, okay, thanks
2628 2011-05-21 15:54:34 <sipa> tasha2: no need for wxlibs if you just want bitcoind
2629 2011-05-21 15:54:45 <doublec> just pass USE_UNPN= on the make line to not use it
2630 2011-05-21 15:54:57 <doublec> USE_UPNP= that is
2631 2011-05-21 15:55:10 <sacarlson> tasha2: you shouldn't need wxlibs if you plan to only use cli and I don't recall seeing any exlibs
2632 2011-05-21 15:55:18 <tasha2> yup
2633 2011-05-21 15:55:26 <BlueMatt> if you dont plan on using upnp, just dont compile it in
2634 2011-05-21 15:56:08 <tasha2> there is phpMyAdmin for mysql
2635 2011-05-21 15:56:17 <tasha2> is there phpMyBitcoin for bitcoin? :)
2636 2011-05-21 15:56:25 <BlueMatt> js-remote
2637 2011-05-21 15:56:35 <BlueMatt> not quite that full-featured but works well
2638 2011-05-21 15:56:49 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2639 2011-05-21 15:57:28 <sacarlson> tasha2: you can maybe setup the exchange that runs in php , it's open source
2640 2011-05-21 15:58:14 <tasha2> even simpler.. just a web interface that hooks into bitcoin via php json rpc
2641 2011-05-21 15:58:19 <MrHako> anyone got experience overclocking ati cards with atiflash?
2642 2011-05-21 15:58:57 <sacarlson> tasha2: yes they have that
2643 2011-05-21 15:59:10 <tasha2> happen to know url or keyword for it?
2644 2011-05-21 15:59:56 <sacarlson> I saw an example some place I'll have to look
2645 2011-05-21 16:00:15 skeledrew has joined
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2647 2011-05-21 16:02:06 <sacarlson> tasha2: I think this might be what you want https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=PHP_developer_intro&oldid=5737
2648 2011-05-21 16:02:42 <tasha2> yes, read that already... good info
2649 2011-05-21 16:02:54 <tasha2> but was looking if there are any existing web interfaces.. or I should make one myself
2650 2011-05-21 16:03:21 <sacarlson> tasha2: I thought that was a web interface
2651 2011-05-21 16:03:37 <tasha2> it's a description of part of the inner workings of a web interface
2652 2011-05-21 16:03:40 <tasha2> ;)
2653 2011-05-21 16:04:25 <sacarlson> tasha2: it's what I use in my http://exchange.beertokens.info
2654 2011-05-21 16:05:01 <tasha2> awsome .. beer exchange!
2655 2011-05-21 16:05:29 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2656 2011-05-21 16:05:30 <tasha2> you using https://github.com/mikegogulski/bitcoin-php /
2657 2011-05-21 16:05:32 <tasha2> ?
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2662 2011-05-21 16:07:09 cenuij has joined
2663 2011-05-21 16:07:12 <tasha2> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-gui is kinda what I want
2664 2011-05-21 16:07:58 <devrandom> morning BlueMatt
2665 2011-05-21 16:08:37 <sacarlson> tasha2: it looks similar but I used a more complete example of a working exchange that I just modified to my needs
2666 2011-05-21 16:08:42 eao has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2667 2011-05-21 16:09:22 <tasha2> open source was it?
2668 2011-05-21 16:09:50 <sacarlson> tasha2: this look like it might be even better
2669 2011-05-21 16:10:04 <sacarlson> tasha2: yes it's open source
2670 2011-05-21 16:10:19 <tasha2> the bitcoinjs-gui depends on node.js
2671 2011-05-21 16:10:39 jivvz has joined
2672 2011-05-21 16:10:43 <tasha2> here we go: https://github.com/aceat64/phpMyBitcoin
2673 2011-05-21 16:10:55 nupi has joined
2674 2011-05-21 16:10:58 <devrandom> sacarlson - tell me about your poker contracts...
2675 2011-05-21 16:11:19 Incitatus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2676 2011-05-21 16:12:00 <jfksir> yay my 0 fee transaction was picked up
2677 2011-05-21 16:12:08 <sacarlson> devrandom: well when you play poker you have between 2 and 10 player, they all setup a contract to pay the final winner or pay there losses to the pool
2678 2011-05-21 16:12:48 <devrandom> how is the contract enforced? voting?
2679 2011-05-21 16:13:12 <jfksir> escro?
2680 2011-05-21 16:13:35 <sacarlson> devrandom: yes that's what I thought would work if there was a better than 50% vote the pool would go the pool winner
2681 2011-05-21 16:14:14 <sacarlson> devrandom: I guess that woudn't work with only 2 players
2682 2011-05-21 16:14:28 <devrandom> you can do 50% + 1
2683 2011-05-21 16:14:37 <devrandom> so with 2 you need consensus, or the money is locked
2684 2011-05-21 16:14:52 <devrandom> or have a third party break the tie
2685 2011-05-21 16:14:52 <sacarlson> devrandom: with that I guess time lock for 2 players
2686 2011-05-21 16:15:33 <devrandom> did I show you this? https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4723.0
2687 2011-05-21 16:15:43 <diki> Interesting...thepiratebay is down...
2688 2011-05-21 16:15:49 <diki> they've never been down before
2689 2011-05-21 16:16:21 <devrandom> sacarlson - with tx scripting you can do any kind of voting
2690 2011-05-21 16:16:40 <devrandom> I'm going to implement it in the next month or so
2691 2011-05-21 16:17:06 <jfksir> tx scripting?
2692 2011-05-21 16:17:11 <jfksir> sounds dangerous
2693 2011-05-21 16:17:50 <sacarlson> devrandom: I might have read that since that's why I added isstandard enable in my version of bitcoin
2694 2011-05-21 16:17:55 <devrandom> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
2695 2011-05-21 16:18:10 fimp has joined
2696 2011-05-21 16:18:13 <devrandom> jfksir ^
2697 2011-05-21 16:18:51 <jfksir> maybe we should just implement credit default swaps
2698 2011-05-21 16:19:24 <devrandom> sacarlson - ok. but obviously, code needs to be written...
2699 2011-05-21 16:19:41 <sacarlson> devrandom: that last one might have been changed since I read it
2700 2011-05-21 16:19:56 <sacarlson> devrandom: yes I write some code but limted
2701 2011-05-21 16:20:21 <devrandom> not to worry, I'm going to write it :)
2702 2011-05-21 16:20:39 <sacarlson> devrandom: wow cool how can I help?
2703 2011-05-21 16:20:53 marlowe has joined
2704 2011-05-21 16:21:26 <sacarlson> devrandom: I had planed to make a simple one the first time to just send to one person that was locked until I gave him the key
2705 2011-05-21 16:21:29 <jp_larocque> Hmm, I suppose I'm not the only Deepbit miner who saw two instances of cpuminer on two computers die simultaneously yesterday at 19:46:38?
2706 2011-05-21 16:21:33 <jp_larocque> UTC
2707 2011-05-21 16:22:09 <BlueMatt> devrandom: hm, my gitian-builder is failing spectacularly
2708 2011-05-21 16:22:10 <sacarlson> devrandom: after I got the first simple method working I planed to expand to mutliple party pool
2709 2011-05-21 16:22:11 <tasha2> ok, I see a gap in the market
2710 2011-05-21 16:22:41 zobra has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2711 2011-05-21 16:23:08 <tasha2> a simple, php object-based, non-framework web gui
2712 2011-05-21 16:23:16 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
2713 2011-05-21 16:24:15 <devrandom> sacarlson - I just need to get to it... tx scripting is a bit tricky
2714 2011-05-21 16:24:29 <devrandom> there will be API calls
2715 2011-05-21 16:24:38 <devrandom> BlueMatt - at least it's spectacular
2716 2011-05-21 16:24:38 <C4awayer> where do I get the beta client so I can play around with smaller transactions with the 0.0005 tx fee?
2717 2011-05-21 16:24:56 <devrandom> BlueMatt - what's happening with it?
2718 2011-05-21 16:25:01 <sacarlson> tasha2: ya I was thinking we could use that, I just didn't think enuf people had a appache server running to support it but even python can be used to be a web server
2719 2011-05-21 16:25:02 <C4awayer> is there another download than the main page? like an ftp link or something?
2720 2011-05-21 16:25:17 <tasha2> apache is ez
2721 2011-05-21 16:25:18 <BlueMatt> devrandom: yea, lol...might have been a module conflict between vbox and kvm, vbox having been running at the time
2722 2011-05-21 16:25:23 <BlueMatt> but apt-get was also failing
2723 2011-05-21 16:25:24 pnicholson has joined
2724 2011-05-21 16:25:43 <devrandom> oh, yeah, vbox and kvm seem to be mutually exclusive
2725 2011-05-21 16:25:45 <C4awayer> or should I just pull down the source and compile it?
2726 2011-05-21 16:25:51 <sacarlson> devrandom: I didn't plan on have api calls until later just added command line entry from both sides
2727 2011-05-21 16:26:01 <BlueMatt> apt-get was failing so I decided to rebuild base-vms but then module conflict (I think, the error message was more nondescript than boost_
2728 2011-05-21 16:26:34 <devrandom> sacarlson - there will be api calls to the bitcoind instance to create the multiparty txs
2729 2011-05-21 16:27:02 <devrandom> BlueMatt - strange
2730 2011-05-21 16:27:07 <sacarlson> devrandom: thats many steps ahead in my view
2731 2011-05-21 16:27:12 <BlueMatt> well, Ive g2g Ill be back eventually
2732 2011-05-21 16:27:29 <tasha2> it would be possible then, to make a ' public wallet'
2733 2011-05-21 16:27:31 <sacarlson> devrandom: I work in smaller steps
2734 2011-05-21 16:27:34 <tasha2> that would be wild
2735 2011-05-21 16:27:39 <devrandom> sacarlson - makes sense
2736 2011-05-21 16:27:50 <tasha2> anyone could access the wallet, via browser
2737 2011-05-21 16:27:52 <devrandom> BlueMatt - ok... working on the downloader today
2738 2011-05-21 16:29:42 <C4awayer> found it http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.3.22/test/
2739 2011-05-21 16:30:28 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
2740 2011-05-21 16:30:55 <tasha2> that is with 0.0005 tx fee? that mean you can send 0.0006 minimum?
2741 2011-05-21 16:30:58 dukeleto has joined
2742 2011-05-21 16:31:13 <sacarlson> devrandom: I was thinking to start on the order of something like this http://paste.ubuntu.com/611118/
2743 2011-05-21 16:32:58 <sacarlson> devrandom: from others seeing an example with this interface they can later add api and pooled escrows later
2744 2011-05-21 16:33:35 <devrandom> sacarlson - who holds the key?
2745 2011-05-21 16:34:07 <sacarlson> devrandom: the sender holds the key until he see's what he wants, if he never gets what he wants no one ever get the funds
2746 2011-05-21 16:34:24 <sacarlson> devrandom: it's the most simple escrow
2747 2011-05-21 16:34:50 <devrandom> ok... that's basically two party voting
2748 2011-05-21 16:35:06 <devrandom> what does returnescrow do?
2749 2011-05-21 16:35:41 <sacarlson> devrandom: oh that option would provide the reciever the option to give the funds back to the sender
2750 2011-05-21 16:35:53 <devrandom> ok
2751 2011-05-21 16:36:44 <sacarlson> the sender can't get his funds back unless the reciver releases the funds and the reciever can't get the funds unless the sender give him the key
2752 2011-05-21 16:36:45 <devrandom> I was thinking:
2753 2011-05-21 16:37:13 <noagendamarket> http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/21/bitcoin-skeptics-and.html someone want to comment there ?
2754 2011-05-21 16:37:34 <devrandom> sacarlson - bitcoin sendvoted nvotes,a1,a2,... amount
2755 2011-05-21 16:38:03 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-240-207-96.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
2756 2011-05-21 16:38:48 <sacarlson> devrandom: I'm not sure I understand that who is running that line?
2757 2011-05-21 16:38:51 <devrandom> sacarlson - and to make a vote: bitcoin sendwithvote a_i a_final
2758 2011-05-21 16:39:10 <devrandom> sendvoted is run by each participant to add to the pot
2759 2011-05-21 16:39:34 <devrandom> sendwithvote is the sending of the pot back to a participant
2760 2011-05-21 16:39:39 <sacarlson> devrandom: ok
2761 2011-05-21 16:40:49 <lfm> sacarlson: so we can vote once for each address we have?
2762 2011-05-21 16:42:50 <lfm> a receiver can always send funds back to the address the funds came from, it is public info, like at the block explorer
2763 2011-05-21 16:44:26 <jfksir> devrandom: so you're trying to make a distrubuted poker system?
2764 2011-05-21 16:44:39 <jfksir> or system for games like poker
2765 2011-05-21 16:44:56 <C4awayer> ./bitcoin: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.11' not found (required by ./bitcoin)
2766 2011-05-21 16:45:22 <C4awayer> 3.21-beta loaded on karmic 9.04, but version 3.22-beta needs newer glibc?
2767 2011-05-21 16:45:30 <sacarlson> jfksir: poker is one time you could use it but it's limits would be unlimited
2768 2011-05-21 16:45:50 <Astriks> Aww yeah, the splitchannel has been taken care of!
2769 2011-05-21 16:45:55 <C4awayer> which apparently doesn't exist in the repo for 9.04
2770 2011-05-21 16:45:59 <jfksir> seems like just having one person the parties trust would be a lot easier
2771 2011-05-21 16:45:59 <Astriks> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=9240
2772 2011-05-21 16:45:59 ptmhd has quit (Quit: ptmhd)
2773 2011-05-21 16:46:01 <lfm> would be kinda slow for games wouldnt it?
2774 2011-05-21 16:46:42 <devrandom> jfksir - it's a general escrow like system
2775 2011-05-21 16:47:00 <sacarlson> devrandom I guess I need a sample of a line with the sendwithvote or I'll have to think a bit on it
2776 2011-05-21 16:47:07 <jfksir> but based on some kind of voting, right?
2777 2011-05-21 16:47:48 <jfksir> i think most people would rather just give their bankroll to someone who runs the games, and get a payout when they're done playing
2778 2011-05-21 16:48:09 <devrandom> jfksir - did you see https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4723.0
2779 2011-05-21 16:48:13 <jfksir> i mean...it's kinda a solved problem there...
2780 2011-05-21 16:49:25 rhett__ has joined
2781 2011-05-21 16:49:45 <jfksir> also...escrow is already implemented
2782 2011-05-21 16:49:56 MasterChief has joined
2783 2011-05-21 16:50:07 <jfksir> 1. send money to escrow, 2. escrow sends money after whatever your trading for is confirmed
2784 2011-05-21 16:50:24 <jfksir> or negociates some alternate settlement based on their best judgement
2785 2011-05-21 16:50:43 <C4awayer> there is also a mechanism to send coins to someone that can't be redeemed without additional private keys or a password ... built-in escrow
2786 2011-05-21 16:50:43 <devrandom> jfksir - but that means that the escrow is trusted with the money
2787 2011-05-21 16:50:54 <C4awayer> search "script" on the wiki
2788 2011-05-21 16:50:56 <jfksir> devrandom: yeah...that's the whole point
2789 2011-05-21 16:51:02 <devrandom> and makes them a target
2790 2011-05-21 16:51:21 <jfksir> how are they a target
2791 2011-05-21 16:51:29 <C4awayer> you trust visa, mastercard, paypal, wells fargo, bofa with your money now
2792 2011-05-21 16:51:37 <C4awayer> how different is this?
2793 2011-05-21 16:51:38 <jfksir> only the original sender has their address
2794 2011-05-21 16:52:09 <devrandom> a target for people to steal the bitcoins through cracking their systems
2795 2011-05-21 16:52:19 <devrandom> don't forget, with bitcoins there is no recourse if private keys are compromised
2796 2011-05-21 16:52:22 <jfksir> i think you're underestimating the usefulness of common sense and normal business practices
2797 2011-05-21 16:52:51 <jfksir> just look at how silk road operates...it works fine
2798 2011-05-21 16:53:24 marlowe has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2799 2011-05-21 16:53:41 <devrandom> I have to go, will be on later
2800 2011-05-21 16:53:52 <jfksir> the escrow's identity is only know because it's known that the person holding their private key is considered trusted by many
2801 2011-05-21 16:54:04 <jfksir> no one actually needs to know anything else
2802 2011-05-21 16:54:09 RBecker has joined
2803 2011-05-21 16:54:11 <Niedar> I think the number of people involved in an escrow would be too low and would be unsafe with collusion
2804 2011-05-21 16:54:18 guy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2805 2011-05-21 16:54:39 <jfksir> any system can be similarly corrupted
2806 2011-05-21 16:55:10 <jfksir> if you have some escrow sig, the sender can just conspire with the escrow to not send the money
2807 2011-05-21 16:55:26 <jfksir> sender can do the same
2808 2011-05-21 16:56:59 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2815 2011-05-21 17:01:13 <sacarlson> devrandom: so as I understand it like this then? http://paste.ubuntu.com/611125/
2816 2011-05-21 17:03:12 <sacarlson> jfksir: well that's what the web of trust could prevent on #bitcoin-dev
2817 2011-05-21 17:03:33 <sacarlson> jfksir: opps #bitcoin-otc
2818 2011-05-21 17:03:50 <tasha2> ok, I did a search on all the curren php bitcoin stuff out there
2819 2011-05-21 17:03:56 <tasha2> now I will make my own...
2820 2011-05-21 17:04:10 <sacarlson> tasha2: cool I hope you share it
2821 2011-05-21 17:04:16 <tasha2> it'll be opensource
2822 2011-05-21 17:04:23 <tasha2> either sourceforge or githup
2823 2011-05-21 17:04:24 <tasha2> gitub
2824 2011-05-21 17:04:30 <sacarlson> tasha2: :-D
2825 2011-05-21 17:04:48 <sacarlson> tasha2: I vote for github it's cool
2826 2011-05-21 17:04:50 <tasha2> with a promiment ' support developent; donate to ..... ' line in the readme
2827 2011-05-21 17:05:07 <tasha2> sourceforge used to be cool
2828 2011-05-21 17:05:11 Cusipzzz has joined
2829 2011-05-21 17:05:31 <tasha2> back when cvs was heavily in use, and svn was new
2830 2011-05-21 17:06:19 <sacarlson> tasha2: github opens up group development that I haven't totaly figured out but learning
2831 2011-05-21 17:06:44 <tasha2> i do like that submitting updates (from anyone) is built into github
2832 2011-05-21 17:06:49 <tasha2> with sf, it's all by hand
2833 2011-05-21 17:08:15 <tasha2> so a simple php web interface to bitcoind, skinnable
2834 2011-05-21 17:10:20 DavidSJ has joined
2835 2011-05-21 17:11:51 <sacarlson> devrandom: how are the api interface setup? you can't convert a bitcoin address to an IP address to comunicate with them can you?
2836 2011-05-21 17:12:06 rhett__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2837 2011-05-21 17:12:29 kreal- has joined
2838 2011-05-21 17:12:48 <sacarlson> devrandom: or maybe I misinterpreted what a1,a2, .... were maybe they are IP address?
2839 2011-05-21 17:13:59 Adam___ has joined
2840 2011-05-21 17:14:29 <Adam___> Hello, any of the bitcoin dev's here?
2841 2011-05-21 17:16:17 <jfksir> Adam___: does patching fees out of the client count?
2842 2011-05-21 17:16:48 <Adam___> What?
2843 2011-05-21 17:17:25 jrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2844 2011-05-21 17:19:02 <sacarlson> Adam___: what is your question?
2845 2011-05-21 17:19:36 <Adam___> I was wondering if i could talk to one of the Dev's about the security of the application
2846 2011-05-21 17:20:21 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2847 2011-05-21 17:20:29 <sacarlson> Adam___: that's kind of broad, I consider it secure
2848 2011-05-21 17:21:01 <Adam___> Well i was wondering, since its open source why couldnt someone generate large amount of coins for them self?
2849 2011-05-21 17:21:02 <tasha2> difficulty: 12.36211496
2850 2011-05-21 17:21:08 <sacarlson> Adam___: the insecure part that I see is people running it on windows that is totaly unsecure
2851 2011-05-21 17:21:19 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2852 2011-05-21 17:21:35 <sacarlson> Adam___: they can but they won't be bitcoins
2853 2011-05-21 17:21:47 <directhex> Adam___: yes. but they'll not be accepted by other clients.
2854 2011-05-21 17:21:47 <Adam___> What would they be then?
2855 2011-05-21 17:21:55 <noagendamarket> shitcoins
2856 2011-05-21 17:21:58 <Adam___> Why wont it be accepted by clients?
2857 2011-05-21 17:22:23 <noagendamarket> because its not part of the block chain
2858 2011-05-21 17:22:26 <sacarlson> Adam___: well I've made Weeds and Beertokens but they are not bitcoins
2859 2011-05-21 17:22:31 <noagendamarket> that everyon eelse runs
2860 2011-05-21 17:22:32 <luke-jr> Adam___: because every client checks everything
2861 2011-05-21 17:22:42 <tasha2> weeds and beertokens are bitcoins with new genesis block?
2862 2011-05-21 17:22:48 <noagendamarket> yes
2863 2011-05-21 17:23:05 <tasha2> so anyone can make their own currency
2864 2011-05-21 17:23:10 <directhex> Adam___: coins are created as a reward for finding blocks. you can't just insert low-difficulty blocks unexpectedly
2865 2011-05-21 17:23:18 <sacarlson> tasha2: yes
2866 2011-05-21 17:23:31 <tasha2> someone add some powah to testnet... I'm bored waiting for transactions to go thru
2867 2011-05-21 17:24:21 <tasha2> block 19687 and holding
2868 2011-05-21 17:24:28 <sacarlson> tasha2: there is something called test in a box that might be usefull when -testnet isn't working the way you want
2869 2011-05-21 17:24:44 <lupine_85> sacarlson, do you use a different magic network number too?
2870 2011-05-21 17:24:47 <tasha2> just as you typed that, block 19688 came up
2871 2011-05-21 17:24:54 <tasha2> whassis test in a box?
2872 2011-05-21 17:24:58 <sacarlson> lupine_85: yes
2873 2011-05-21 17:25:05 rb2k has joined
2874 2011-05-21 17:25:07 <lupine_85> goooood :)
2875 2011-05-21 17:25:15 <sacarlson> lupine_85: the code is public
2876 2011-05-21 17:25:30 <lupine_85> maybe there should be a registry for these numbers
2877 2011-05-21 17:25:38 <rb2k> hey, anybody know what could be the reason for only getting a single connection with bitcoin?
2878 2011-05-21 17:25:42 <lupine_85> any volunteers to put together an internet-draft and poke IANA? :p
2879 2011-05-21 17:25:51 <Adam___> which one is better to, be a sole miner or part of a pool?
2880 2011-05-21 17:25:55 <rb2k> (NAT and no ports forwarded, open to outgoing connections though)
2881 2011-05-21 17:25:56 <tasha2> http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/js-remote/ is kinda cool.... transactions show up ajaxy style
2882 2011-05-21 17:26:08 <directhex> Adam___: depends. do you feel lucky?
2883 2011-05-21 17:26:14 <rb2k> could it be the IRC channel overflowing?
2884 2011-05-21 17:26:23 <Adam___> hehe.. well why couldnt i run both?
2885 2011-05-21 17:26:37 <sacarlson> lupine_85: I'm trying to orginze something like that at my http://exchange.beertokens.info/ so that people that add new chains can trade and test them there
2886 2011-05-21 17:26:40 <lupine_85> the js-remote tool is surprisingly heavy on the webserver
2887 2011-05-21 17:26:57 <tasha2> yea, there's a lot going on under the hood
2888 2011-05-21 17:27:04 <directhex> Adam___: you could. but you'd be dividing your FLOPs between both.
2889 2011-05-21 17:27:05 <lupine_85> that's neither IANA or an internet-draft
2890 2011-05-21 17:27:17 <lupine_85> and that's the britcoin code :p
2891 2011-05-21 17:27:23 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2892 2011-05-21 17:27:32 <Adam___> ok so if i wanted to start mining in a pool where do i start?
2893 2011-05-21 17:27:44 <noagendamarket> a blockexchange ?
2894 2011-05-21 17:27:57 <directhex> Adam___: pick a pool, register, run a miner with the url, username, and password for the pool.
2895 2011-05-21 17:27:58 danbri has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2896 2011-05-21 17:28:00 <Clipse> Adam___ : its prob not a bad idea if u have enough ghash's to distribute some onto solo mining
2897 2011-05-21 17:28:04 <Clipse> in case u think ur lucky
2898 2011-05-21 17:28:10 <Clipse> worst case u still get plentish from pool
2899 2011-05-21 17:28:15 <Clipse> best case u hit gold on solo
2900 2011-05-21 17:28:17 <Clipse> haha
2901 2011-05-21 17:28:25 <Adam___> ok how would i solo mine?
2902 2011-05-21 17:28:36 C4away has joined
2903 2011-05-21 17:28:38 <directhex> run a miner in solo mode.
2904 2011-05-21 17:29:18 lumos has joined
2905 2011-05-21 17:29:27 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2906 2011-05-21 17:29:41 fimp has joined
2907 2011-05-21 17:30:11 <Astriks> wait, what?
2908 2011-05-21 17:30:13 <sacarlson> noagendamarket: yes chain block an currency exchange
2909 2011-05-21 17:30:23 <Astriks> Sent to: miCsiTMhZaYMjZ7YLPHBvnUzgbRNFpPe94 (test)
2910 2011-05-21 17:30:23 <Astriks> Confirmations: 2
2911 2011-05-21 17:30:23 <Astriks> Fee: 0.00 BTC
2912 2011-05-21 17:30:23 <Astriks> Comment: test
2913 2011-05-21 17:30:36 C4awayer has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2914 2011-05-21 17:30:39 <Adam___> it says problem connecting with bitcoin RPC what does that mean?
2915 2011-05-21 17:30:56 <directhex> Adam___: it means there's an issue connecting to the URL you specified.
2916 2011-05-21 17:32:46 <sacarlson> Adam___: normaly it would be caused when you don't create a bitcoin.conf to specify the username and password of rpc
2917 2011-05-21 17:33:05 <Adam___> and how do i set the username and password
2918 2011-05-21 17:33:13 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2919 2011-05-21 17:33:18 <Adam___> like what do i enter in the config
2920 2011-05-21 17:33:22 <sacarlson> Adam___: in what plantform?
2921 2011-05-21 17:33:31 <Adam___> windows
2922 2011-05-21 17:33:54 <sacarlson> Adam___: do you know where the bitcoin.conf is in windows?
2923 2011-05-21 17:33:58 <Adam___> yes
2924 2011-05-21 17:34:00 sethsethseth__ has left ()
2925 2011-05-21 17:34:34 <sacarlson> Adam___: rpcpassword=yourpassword
2926 2011-05-21 17:34:35 <sacarlson> rpcuser=yourusername
2927 2011-05-21 17:36:24 <sacarlson> ok time for my beer drinking break have fun and thanks for the info from you all
2928 2011-05-21 17:37:11 <C4away> On windows I get an error about libeay32.dll missing "reinstalling the application may fix the problem"
2929 2011-05-21 17:37:13 peck has joined
2930 2011-05-21 17:37:29 <C4away> with the new 3.22 RC
2931 2011-05-21 17:37:38 <Adam___> and now its downloading blocks what do i do after that
2932 2011-05-21 17:37:38 <Adam___> ?
2933 2011-05-21 17:37:40 <C4away> Windows xp pro 32-bit
2934 2011-05-21 17:38:08 <C4away> oh, it is just missing openssl?
2935 2011-05-21 17:38:21 <C4away> does the new client use ssl/tls?
2936 2011-05-21 17:38:40 <sacarlson> C4away: the new version seems you need to copy the libeay32.dll into the same dir you run bitcoin.exe
2937 2011-05-21 17:38:56 <C4away> ok, thank you
2938 2011-05-21 17:39:14 <tasha2> so how does one go about creating a new genesis block?
2939 2011-05-21 17:39:45 <directhex> Adam___: wait. a long time.
2940 2011-05-21 17:39:54 <lupine_85> sacarlson, you should probably pop your block of gold into a trust fund of some kind, by the way
2941 2011-05-21 17:40:12 fimp has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2942 2011-05-21 17:40:13 <C4away> I'm upgrading my laptop to 10.10 so I can run it on linux
2943 2011-05-21 17:40:29 <tasha2> const uint256 hashGenesisBlock("0x000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f"); in main.cpp ?
2944 2011-05-21 17:40:29 <lupine_85> then add a mechanism for people to add a block of gold into the same place and receive a bunch of coins in return
2945 2011-05-21 17:40:29 <C4away> in two steps, 10.4 then 10.10 ... I"ll get back to you next week on that one
2946 2011-05-21 17:40:33 <tasha2> is that it?
2947 2011-05-21 17:41:41 <tasha2> nifty
2948 2011-05-21 17:42:11 Sedra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2949 2011-05-21 17:42:54 Sedra has joined
2950 2011-05-21 17:44:52 sethsethseth___ has joined
2951 2011-05-21 17:45:47 <C4away> haha, what is the point of decreasing the tx fee to 0.0005 but not increasing the number of digits you can type into the voluntary tx fee box? Still only 0.00
2952 2011-05-21 17:45:59 <lupine_85> heh
2953 2011-05-21 17:46:07 rhett__ has joined
2954 2011-05-21 17:46:38 jrabbit has joined
2955 2011-05-21 17:47:26 <C4away> do you know the path to wallet.dat on windows?
2956 2011-05-21 17:48:11 sethsethseth___ has quit (Client Quit)
2957 2011-05-21 17:48:40 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
2958 2011-05-21 17:49:10 sethsethseth_ has joined
2959 2011-05-21 17:49:16 <directhex> c:\users\username\appdata\roaming\bitcoin
2960 2011-05-21 17:49:24 ezl has joined
2961 2011-05-21 17:49:25 <Astriks> %appdata%
2962 2011-05-21 17:49:39 <C4away> someone feeling philanthropic should top-up the faucet so the people I'm telling about it can get some bitcoin of their own
2963 2011-05-21 17:49:51 <mtrlt> why not you :P
2964 2011-05-21 17:49:51 <C4away> directhex, Astriks, thank you
2965 2011-05-21 17:49:58 <C4away> I'm broke =(
2966 2011-05-21 17:50:02 <mtrlt> :(
2967 2011-05-21 17:50:09 <C4away> waiting on payment from clients
2968 2011-05-21 17:50:12 <C4away> which is my mantra these days
2969 2011-05-21 17:50:13 <Adam___> what does share 1 accepted?
2970 2011-05-21 17:50:50 guy_ has joined
2971 2011-05-21 17:50:53 tasha2 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2972 2011-05-21 17:51:18 <Clipse> means ur completed share got accepted
2973 2011-05-21 17:51:30 <Clipse> share is a piece of the current sharepool
2974 2011-05-21 17:55:41 RBecker has quit (Laptop!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker|Remote host closed the connection)
2975 2011-05-21 17:57:45 <C4away> FUCK THIS 0.0005 is a LIE
2976 2011-05-21 17:57:49 <C4away> it took 0.01 anyway
2977 2011-05-21 17:57:57 <Astriks> owned
2978 2011-05-21 17:58:16 <C4away> it says right in the gui "this transaction is small, would you like to pay 0.0005?" I said yes
2979 2011-05-21 17:58:20 <C4away> sent -0.02
2980 2011-05-21 17:58:25 <C4away> balance 0
2981 2011-05-21 17:58:28 <C4away> =(
2982 2011-05-21 17:58:42 <gwillen> C4away: :-(
2983 2011-05-21 17:58:47 <gwillen> what OS are you on?
2984 2011-05-21 17:58:48 <Astriks> snif
2985 2011-05-21 17:59:00 <gwillen> C4away: also, I just sent .25 to the faucet
2986 2011-05-21 17:59:05 <gwillen> so once it shows up, tell your friends
2987 2011-05-21 17:59:15 <C4away> ok thank you
2988 2011-05-21 17:59:20 <C4away> I wish I knew C++
2989 2011-05-21 17:59:20 <gwillen> np
2990 2011-05-21 17:59:43 <Astriks> The Bitcoin Faucet has run dry!
2991 2011-05-21 17:59:45 <Astriks> again?
2992 2011-05-21 18:00:21 <Astriks> nevermind
2993 2011-05-21 18:00:25 <Astriks> im confused with http://testnet.freebitcoins.appspot.com/
2994 2011-05-21 18:00:59 <Astriks> I'm giving away 0.11 per visit:
2995 2011-05-21 18:01:01 <Adam___> where can i download a opensource .Net miner?
2996 2011-05-21 18:01:09 <Astriks> Hey! I thought you were giving away FIFTY!
2997 2011-05-21 18:01:09 <Astriks> Sorry, I'm running out.
2998 2011-05-21 18:01:10 <Astriks> wat
2999 2011-05-21 18:01:18 <Astriks> 487.99 ?TC available
3000 2011-05-21 18:01:30 <mtrlt> Astriks: testnet
3001 2011-05-21 18:01:37 <mtrlt> read the whole page, please
3002 2011-05-21 18:02:07 <Astriks> I know what it is
3003 2011-05-21 18:02:08 <Astriks> ....
3004 2011-05-21 18:02:21 ezl has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3005 2011-05-21 18:03:01 <directhex> Adam___: i don't know if anyone's written one yet. there's a java miner you could port.
3006 2011-05-21 18:03:18 <Adam___> can i have a link to it please
3007 2011-05-21 18:03:49 noagendamarket has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3008 2011-05-21 18:04:36 _fdf has joined
3009 2011-05-21 18:04:38 <directhex> Adam___: it's called diablominer. i'm sure he'll be delighted by a .net port. the library you likely want to use for opencl is called Cloo.
3010 2011-05-21 18:06:01 <C4away> can multiple clients run with the same wallet.dat file?
3011 2011-05-21 18:06:34 <C4away> and if you send a tx from one will it show up on the other as if it were its own transaction?
3012 2011-05-21 18:06:35 <gwillen> C4away: I would definitely not try running more than one at once
3013 2011-05-21 18:06:43 <gwillen> this seems fraught with peril
3014 2011-05-21 18:06:47 <C4away> is there a reason you say that?
3015 2011-05-21 18:06:54 <C4away> as far as I know it is just a collection of keys
3016 2011-05-21 18:07:06 <gwillen> because I write software for a living, and I can imagine multiple ways the software could be not designed to handle that
3017 2011-05-21 18:07:10 <C4away> so if it sees a transaction that relates to one of its own keys it should just say "oh, that's me"
3018 2011-05-21 18:07:15 <gwillen> oh hm
3019 2011-05-21 18:07:25 <C4away> in theory
3020 2011-05-21 18:07:30 <gwillen> I guess the risk would be, if both decide to generate new keys or something
3021 2011-05-21 18:07:34 <gwillen> or otherwise modify the wallet
3022 2011-05-21 18:07:40 <gwillen> then they could stomp on each other
3023 2011-05-21 18:07:42 <gwillen> and lose keys
3024 2011-05-21 18:07:45 <C4away> then they would just be two wallets with some overlapping keys
3025 2011-05-21 18:07:58 <C4away> if I copied one over the other I might lose some keys
3026 2011-05-21 18:08:03 <gwillen> but I mean, if you have them both using the same wallet.dat, they will both write the new keys to the same file
3027 2011-05-21 18:08:03 <C4away> it is an interesting question
3028 2011-05-21 18:08:10 <C4away> oh
3029 2011-05-21 18:08:10 <gwillen> or do you mean copies of the same wallet.dat
3030 2011-05-21 18:08:13 <C4away> I meant a copy thereof
3031 2011-05-21 18:08:16 <C4away> sorry, I was not clear
3032 2011-05-21 18:08:19 <gwillen> ahhhhh ok
3033 2011-05-21 18:08:24 <C4away> you are right, simultaneous access would be bad
3034 2011-05-21 18:08:30 <gwillen> that is a really interesting question then
3035 2011-05-21 18:08:40 <C4away> race conditions and such, I'd be surprised if the first dosen't lock it
3036 2011-05-21 18:08:54 <C4away> just incase you run the application twice
3037 2011-05-21 18:09:11 <gwillen> ooh, yeah that would be smart
3038 2011-05-21 18:09:15 <DavidSJ> Yes, a copy would work fine.
3039 2011-05-21 18:09:23 <DavidSJ> They would diverge over time.
3040 2011-05-21 18:09:38 <gwillen> anyway yeah, I can't think of any reason a copy wouldn't work, although indeed you would have to think about how to merge them if you needed to
3041 2011-05-21 18:09:53 <DavidSJ> To merge: send money from one to the other. :)
3042 2011-05-21 18:10:19 <C4away> but let's say I wanted to send a tx with the new client and I can only get it to work on windows, I copy the wallet.dat to my wife's computer (wich is connected with -connect=MyLinuxMachine) and send it from there
3043 2011-05-21 18:10:48 <C4away> would my linux machine see the transaction and accept it as its own
3044 2011-05-21 18:10:52 <gwillen> DavidSJ: oh, not a bad idea
3045 2011-05-21 18:11:02 <gwillen> C4away: I expect so
3046 2011-05-21 18:11:05 <C4away> that's what I'm wondering. Right now it does not show up at all, but it still says 0/unconfirmed so far
3047 2011-05-21 18:11:09 <gwillen> I would do a test
3048 2011-05-21 18:11:11 <gwillen> ahh, you already are
3049 2011-05-21 18:11:22 <gwillen> I will be curious to hear your results
3050 2011-05-21 18:11:45 rb2k has quit (Quit: rb2k)
3051 2011-05-21 18:11:45 <C4away> I just did it a few minutes ago
3052 2011-05-21 18:11:54 <C4away> I should watch block explorer to see when it posts the tx
3053 2011-05-21 18:13:51 <C4away> so should I see 0/unconfirmed until it lands in a block?
3054 2011-05-21 18:14:09 ArtForzZy has joined
3055 2011-05-21 18:14:46 <C4away> http://blockexplorer.com/b/125559 I wondered about this. No tx means you just give yourself 50 and call it good then?
3056 2011-05-21 18:15:11 <Optimo> that means he got the prize
3057 2011-05-21 18:15:13 <C4away> basically an "empty" block other than the generation, but you solved it
3058 2011-05-21 18:15:15 <C4away> I know that
3059 2011-05-21 18:15:22 <C4away> just wondering if a block could exist without any other tx
3060 2011-05-21 18:15:37 <C4away> it makes sense
3061 2011-05-21 18:15:43 <C4away> just hadn't seen it in a block yet
3062 2011-05-21 18:15:45 <gwillen> wow, that's an interesting issue
3063 2011-05-21 18:16:09 <Optimo> the system puts 50 in and it's paid to the address. what am I missing?
3064 2011-05-21 18:16:09 <gwillen> seems like there should be a rule against accepting blocks with no txns in them
3065 2011-05-21 18:16:25 <gwillen> Optimo: that's an entire block, isn't it?
3066 2011-05-21 18:16:35 Adam___ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3067 2011-05-21 18:16:39 <C4away> well what if there are no tx for hours on end?
3068 2011-05-21 18:16:48 <Optimo> it's teh current block
3069 2011-05-21 18:16:52 <C4away> we still need block generation every 10 minutes or so
3070 2011-05-21 18:17:10 <Optimo> what's the problem with an 'empty' block?
3071 2011-05-21 18:17:24 <gwillen> Optimo: I don't think it is the current block, I think it is the last block
3072 2011-05-21 18:17:32 <gwillen> unless that's what you meant
3073 2011-05-21 18:17:34 <C4away> it is the last current block
3074 2011-05-21 18:17:35 <C4away> lol
3075 2011-05-21 18:17:36 ArtForzZz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3076 2011-05-21 18:17:45 <gwillen> the problem is it means that someone is 'mining' by ignoring all the transactions and just making empty blocks
3077 2011-05-21 18:17:50 <gwillen> if everyone does that the system will collapse
3078 2011-05-21 18:17:55 <C4away> http://blockexplorer.com/
3079 2011-05-21 18:18:02 <C4away> are those timestamps right?
3080 2011-05-21 18:18:18 <C4away> are we averaging 1-4 min per block?
3081 2011-05-21 18:18:43 <C4away> in the last 4 blocks or so?
3082 2011-05-21 18:19:14 <C4away> and is that normal? I know it is random the length but a lot of those seem very short
3083 2011-05-21 18:19:25 <Optimo> loko further back it's faster and slower
3084 2011-05-21 18:19:46 <C4away> yea, after I said that I saw the :32 to :45 which is a long time
3085 2011-05-21 18:20:21 <Optimo> take the average of that whole page and you might get something close to what the other instruments are saying
3086 2011-05-21 18:20:22 <diki> ;;bc,stats
3087 2011-05-21 18:20:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 125561 | Current Difficulty: 244139.48158254 | Next Difficulty At Block: 127007 | Next Difficulty In: 1446 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 5 hours, 7 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 340467.92203046
3088 2011-05-21 18:20:40 <diki> pretty soon we will see the more accurate diff
3089 2011-05-21 18:20:49 <Optimo> can't underestimate how many new miners are coming online
3090 2011-05-21 18:21:03 luke-jr has joined
3091 2011-05-21 18:21:08 <diki> yo luke
3092 2011-05-21 18:21:12 <Optimo> deepbit went up 30% in 6 or 7 days
3093 2011-05-21 18:21:22 riush has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3094 2011-05-21 18:21:27 <Optimo> guys: what is this one I have '0/offline?'
3095 2011-05-21 18:21:31 <diki> yeah, it reached 1100 ghash/s today
3096 2011-05-21 18:21:36 <diki> or basically it's 1 Thash/s
3097 2011-05-21 18:22:13 <Optimo> it was a small tx now o/offline?
3098 2011-05-21 18:22:41 <diki> I gotta ask, with namecoins do you earn bitcoins?
3099 2011-05-21 18:22:48 <diki> or you earn...namecoins?
3100 2011-05-21 18:23:14 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3101 2011-05-21 18:23:23 HaXoR_DB has joined
3102 2011-05-21 18:23:28 <diki> and btw...the heat here is unbearable
3103 2011-05-21 18:23:46 <diki> I really hate summer. I wish the sun dies already
3104 2011-05-21 18:23:52 <HaXoR_DB> anyone wanna sell me 5 liberty reserve dollars for 1.1 bitcoins?
3105 2011-05-21 18:23:54 <Optimo> diki it says namecoins uses another chain, so not the same
3106 2011-05-21 18:23:55 <diki> and the pure winter to come
3107 2011-05-21 18:24:32 <Optimo> the beauty of .bit makes sense now
3108 2011-05-21 18:24:40 HaXoR_DB has quit (Client Quit)
3109 2011-05-21 18:24:48 <Optimo> a DNS in a pool like bitcoin
3110 2011-05-21 18:25:03 <Optimo> if only they could really wedge it into bitcoin instead of separate
3111 2011-05-21 18:25:10 <Optimo> or package them together
3112 2011-05-21 18:25:17 <diki> wouldnt that stress the chain?
3113 2011-05-21 18:25:39 <C4away> gwillen, YES it showed up!
3114 2011-05-21 18:25:48 <Optimo> not conjoined chains but like, one cleint that is reading both
3115 2011-05-21 18:25:49 luke-jr has joined
3116 2011-05-21 18:25:57 <C4away> it shows 0/unconfirmed now on my linux machine
3117 2011-05-21 18:26:25 <diki> I see.
3118 2011-05-21 18:26:30 soossii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3119 2011-05-21 18:26:33 <C4away> it had to get the data in the block though
3120 2011-05-21 18:26:53 <Optimo> I sent 0.02 with a 0.01 fee and I have 0/offline
3121 2011-05-21 18:26:55 <C4away> when the client sent just the transaction my client did not see it, once the block was generated it shows now
3122 2011-05-21 18:27:30 <Optimo> and this tx theoretically happened in that aformentioned block with just the genesis tx
3123 2011-05-21 18:27:33 <Optimo> ;p
3124 2011-05-21 18:27:43 <diki> the people on slush's pool are increasing, but it's like the block solving time decreases
3125 2011-05-21 18:28:15 <C4away> isn't that logical?
3126 2011-05-21 18:28:19 <diki> no it's not
3127 2011-05-21 18:28:22 <C4away> oh
3128 2011-05-21 18:28:26 <C4away> for some reason I misread that
3129 2011-05-21 18:28:27 <diki> wait...
3130 2011-05-21 18:28:31 <diki> i mispelled that
3131 2011-05-21 18:28:36 <C4away> oh yea
3132 2011-05-21 18:28:39 <diki> i meant that the block solving time increases
3133 2011-05-21 18:28:43 <C4away> that makes sense
3134 2011-05-21 18:28:48 <C4away> well, it doesn't
3135 2011-05-21 18:28:52 <C4away> but now I know what you meant
3136 2011-05-21 18:28:59 <diki> there are more instances now when blocks are solved for more than an hour than when the pool had about 2600 workers
3137 2011-05-21 18:29:20 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3138 2011-05-21 18:30:01 <diki> Does someone agree with me, that the 5k series is almost bought out?
3139 2011-05-21 18:30:02 <C4away> difficulty
3140 2011-05-21 18:30:09 <C4away> that's the thing, it is easy to do a sha256 hash
3141 2011-05-21 18:30:13 <C4away> and the first one could be the right one
3142 2011-05-21 18:30:37 <Optimo> anyone? "0/offline?" - I should probably wait or?
3143 2011-05-21 18:30:48 <diki> Optimo: wait
3144 2011-05-21 18:30:55 <C4away> so the difficulty adjusts making it less likely to be found ... which means if we get a huge increase in mining it could start to take weeks for a block to be found
3145 2011-05-21 18:31:03 <Optimo> 50 minutes
3146 2011-05-21 18:31:07 <Optimo> bbl
3147 2011-05-21 18:31:11 <diki> i believe so, but people are buying more rigs
3148 2011-05-21 18:31:23 ksjekrjhe has joined
3149 2011-05-21 18:31:26 <diki> The only problem there is, is that most people who have single cars solutions can't even compete
3150 2011-05-21 18:31:26 <C4away> unlikely, but the harder the difficulty the more likely it is
3151 2011-05-21 18:31:33 <diki> *cards
3152 2011-05-21 18:31:40 <C4away> that is a problem
3153 2011-05-21 18:32:01 <diki> Meaning, today i may be able to earn some bitcoins with a 5850, but tomorrow i may not even earn 0,15 per 24 hours
3154 2011-05-21 18:32:45 <diki> Which is a problem for me.
3155 2011-05-21 18:33:04 <diki> If everything goes as expected i might be able to buy another 5850
3156 2011-05-21 18:33:10 <diki> but that's about it...
3157 2011-05-21 18:33:35 <diki> so assuming the other card also does 270 mhash/s as my current ine i will get 540 mhash/s
3158 2011-05-21 18:33:41 <diki> *one
3159 2011-05-21 18:33:52 m00p has joined
3160 2011-05-21 18:33:53 <diki> but in due time it won't be f*** enough again
3161 2011-05-21 18:34:14 ksjekrjhe has quit (Client Quit)
3162 2011-05-21 18:35:08 <diki> Well...if graphene is used in GPUs....they could be so poweful, that only one card could provide 10 ghash/s
3163 2011-05-21 18:35:17 <diki> but i see this in the late years..
3164 2011-05-21 18:36:20 <C4away> I don't know ... video cards are premium hardware and they will look for any way to increase performance
3165 2011-05-21 18:36:22 izz3k has left ()
3166 2011-05-21 18:36:35 <C4away> to garner top dollar for their latest models
3167 2011-05-21 18:36:58 <C4away> I would expect it shortly after CPUs start using graphene
3168 2011-05-21 18:37:22 <diki> but the main problem to graphene afaik is that...once turned on, you can't turn it off
3169 2011-05-21 18:37:25 bkraptor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3170 2011-05-21 18:37:51 <diki> meaning you can't stop it from getting current/power/whatever
3171 2011-05-21 18:38:13 <C4away> well, the problem with transistors is they can only be made so small
3172 2011-05-21 18:38:16 <C4away> and then we make them smaller
3173 2011-05-21 18:38:27 <C4away> it's just a technological limitation that we will overcome eventually
3174 2011-05-21 18:38:40 <C4away> hell, look at hard drives. They should not work
3175 2011-05-21 18:38:48 <diki> this limitation is with sillicon
3176 2011-05-21 18:38:53 <C4away> we already bend the laws of physics to make them work with the capacities they have
3177 2011-05-21 18:38:56 <diki> with graphene they can be shrunk to 1nm
3178 2011-05-21 18:38:58 <C4away> yes
3179 2011-05-21 18:39:08 <C4away> I'm just saying in the 80's transistors were the size of my thumb
3180 2011-05-21 18:39:10 mologie has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
3181 2011-05-21 18:39:13 <C4away> now they are microscopic
3182 2011-05-21 18:39:16 <diki> and prolly less, and they can according to the intranetz cool themselves
3183 2011-05-21 18:39:22 <C4away> graphene has issues, they will be solved
3184 2011-05-21 18:39:25 <C4away> and quickly
3185 2011-05-21 18:39:33 vorlov has joined
3186 2011-05-21 18:39:36 zirpu has joined
3187 2011-05-21 18:39:37 <C4away> there is a profit incentive to be the first with a graphene core cpu
3188 2011-05-21 18:39:53 jabdf has joined
3189 2011-05-21 18:39:54 <pfifo> I was wondering, can sha256 produce all possible values that a 256 bit number can store or are there results that can not happen no matter what data you start with?
3190 2011-05-21 18:39:56 Gui_0 has quit (Disconnected by services)
3191 2011-05-21 18:40:00 jabdf is now known as Gui_0
3192 2011-05-21 18:40:04 Gui_0 has quit (Changing host)
3193 2011-05-21 18:40:04 Gui_0 has joined
3194 2011-05-21 18:40:12 Gui_0 has left ()
3195 2011-05-21 18:40:12 Gui_0 has joined
3196 2011-05-21 18:40:15 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: ping. any build progress w/ 0.3.22rc3?
3197 2011-05-21 18:40:52 <diki> what are the main features of .22?
3198 2011-05-21 18:40:59 <x5x> pfifo, good question
3199 2011-05-21 18:41:03 mologie has joined
3200 2011-05-21 18:41:33 <zirpu> really interesting question. now i wish i could forget. :-) going to have to reread the rfc now.
3201 2011-05-21 18:42:12 <sacarlson> gwillen: wow a falathrapist in our midst
3202 2011-05-21 18:42:19 <pfifo> x5x, it obivous that a double sha256, with even 1 duplicate in the out put cant, so if sha256 can on a single pass, then double sha256 is a weakness
3203 2011-05-21 18:42:30 luke-jr has joined
3204 2011-05-21 18:42:46 <gwillen> sacarlson: the faucet hasn't credited it yet :-\
3205 2011-05-21 18:42:47 <x5x> why can't a double sha256 ?
3206 2011-05-21 18:43:00 <diki> i've tried reading one rfc document....
3207 2011-05-21 18:43:02 <devrandom> sacarlson - your paste looks fine, except nvotes is the voting threshold. I didn't want it to be fixed at 50%, for flexibility.
3208 2011-05-21 18:43:03 <devrandom> http://paste.ubuntu.com/611125/
3209 2011-05-21 18:43:06 <diki> i am sorry but they are fracking too long
3210 2011-05-21 18:43:06 <sacarlson> gwillen: I'm sure it will come it might take 4 - 6 hours
3211 2011-05-21 18:43:31 <pfifo> x5x, input is a 256 bit number and output is a 256 bit number, 1 duplicate means that theres 1 value that wont be used
3212 2011-05-21 18:43:45 <sacarlson> devrandom: oh I'll read that then
3213 2011-05-21 18:43:53 <x5x> pfifo, what do you mean 1 duplicate ?
3214 2011-05-21 18:43:58 <x5x> u mean the input mathcing the output
3215 2011-05-21 18:44:00 <x5x> ?
3216 2011-05-21 18:44:20 devon_hillard has joined
3217 2011-05-21 18:44:30 <pfifo> i mean if you have 2 datasets that produce the same checksum
3218 2011-05-21 18:44:43 <x5x> pfifo, ok, if u have that, then what ?
3219 2011-05-21 18:45:12 <sacarlson> devrandom: that look the same as I wrote it
3220 2011-05-21 18:45:12 <zirpu> you've won the hash lottery! woot!
3221 2011-05-21 18:45:25 <devrandom> sacarlson - no, that's your paste, I just put it here for reference :)
3222 2011-05-21 18:45:43 <sacarlson> devrandom: oh ok
3223 2011-05-21 18:46:21 <pfifo> x5x, then there is a checksum that cant be vaiid no matter what input you give the alog, (strictly speaking about giving the algo a 256 bit checksum as input (from pass 1))
3224 2011-05-21 18:46:50 <sacarlson> devrandom: so nvotes is the number of votes from the total pool group that will decide weather the pool moves to the benifactor
3225 2011-05-21 18:47:01 <diki> i want to ask, pools give diff-1 hashes, right?
3226 2011-05-21 18:47:11 <diki> So that means current diff minus one?
3227 2011-05-21 18:47:11 <devrandom> sacarlson - yes
3228 2011-05-21 18:47:18 <mtrlt> diki: no. difficulty 1
3229 2011-05-21 18:47:20 <x5x> pfifo, if you have 2 strings that produce the same checksum, then there is a checksum taht cant be valid no matter what string you give the algo?..... i dont get what ur saying there
3230 2011-05-21 18:47:44 <diki> you mean the absolute first diff that cpu miners were used?
3231 2011-05-21 18:47:49 <mtrlt> diki: yes
3232 2011-05-21 18:47:56 <diki> then how come it's so hard to send shares?
3233 2011-05-21 18:48:00 <diki> it takes forever
3234 2011-05-21 18:48:07 <mtrlt> diki: um? what does
3235 2011-05-21 18:48:12 <pfifo> x5x, im saying that double sha256 might be a weakness
3236 2011-05-21 18:48:15 <diki> my miner?
3237 2011-05-21 18:48:22 <mtrlt> diki: ah it takes forever to find shares+
3238 2011-05-21 18:48:23 <mtrlt> ?
3239 2011-05-21 18:48:28 <x5x> pfifo, yea but i still dont get how you're arriving at that idea
3240 2011-05-21 18:48:29 <diki> Since cpu miners back then could generate blocks like every minute...
3241 2011-05-21 18:48:35 <mtrlt> diki: every 1 in 2^32 hashes is a share
3242 2011-05-21 18:48:41 <diki> how come it's so hard to send shares with the gpu?
3243 2011-05-21 18:49:01 <mtrlt> diki: no they couldn't because blocks come every 10 minutes
3244 2011-05-21 18:49:18 <mtrlt> and at least i get a bit less than 1 share per second
3245 2011-05-21 18:49:21 <mtrlt> as expected for 3.2GH
3246 2011-05-21 18:49:22 <diki> no they dont..according to the pools some take hours
3247 2011-05-21 18:49:25 <jrabbit> http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-swat-team-defends-shooting-iraq-marine-veteran/story?id=13640112
3248 2011-05-21 18:49:29 <pfifo> x5x, did you have a question?
3249 2011-05-21 18:49:44 <mtrlt> diki: are you confusing a share with an actual block=?
3250 2011-05-21 18:49:46 <sacarlson> devrandom: so my small change looks like this then http://paste.ubuntu.com/611156/ but I'm not sure how it works if the groups benifactors are more than one
3251 2011-05-21 18:49:48 <x5x> pfifo, yea im trying to understand what ur saying, but its not making sense, can you rephrase it ?
3252 2011-05-21 18:49:49 <diki> no, i am not
3253 2011-05-21 18:49:55 <diki> a share= block header, right?
3254 2011-05-21 18:49:55 <mtrlt> sure? :P
3255 2011-05-21 18:50:00 <mtrlt> ummh no
3256 2011-05-21 18:50:08 <mtrlt> a share is when you find a diff 1 block
3257 2011-05-21 18:50:24 <diki> a full fledged block?
3258 2011-05-21 18:50:35 <sacarlson> devrandom: or is it meant that there will only be one benifactor of the pool?
3259 2011-05-21 18:50:37 <mtrlt> yes but again, only diff 1
3260 2011-05-21 18:50:48 <mtrlt> ;;bc,diff
3261 2011-05-21 18:50:50 <gribble> 244139.48158254
3262 2011-05-21 18:51:12 <devrandom> sacarlson - sendwithvote can be extended similarly to sendmany call... multiple outputs
3263 2011-05-21 18:51:20 <mtrlt> most shares don't result in actual actual blocks but every once in a while one does. then the pool has found a real [bc,diff] block
3264 2011-05-21 18:51:47 <pfifo> x5x, if you have 2^256 possible values for input and 2^256 possible values for output, then each of the inputs must be unique, as soon as there is a duplicate found, there is alos (logically) an unused output value
3265 2011-05-21 18:51:48 <diki> can you graphically describe how the miner find the block?
3266 2011-05-21 18:51:56 <mtrlt> no
3267 2011-05-21 18:51:59 <mtrlt> or
3268 2011-05-21 18:52:02 <sacarlson> devrandom: wow I best stick to the simple first try efort
3269 2011-05-21 18:52:02 <mtrlt> what do you mean "graphically"
3270 2011-05-21 18:52:07 <mtrlt> i can't draw worth shit :P
3271 2011-05-21 18:52:21 <pfifo> x5x, if you have 2^256 possible values for input and 2^256 possible values for output, then each of the inputs must create a unique output*, as soon as there is a duplicate found, there is also (logically) an unused output value
3272 2011-05-21 18:52:24 <devrandom> sacarlson - yes, one step at a time
3273 2011-05-21 18:52:28 <diki> well, what i read is that the miner increases something and tests if the block is correct
3274 2011-05-21 18:52:40 <diki> increases untill a valid block is found
3275 2011-05-21 18:52:46 <mtrlt> diki: yes it increases the nonce and hashes the block header.
3276 2011-05-21 18:52:52 <x5x> pfifo, ok, right
3277 2011-05-21 18:52:54 <mtrlt> (hashes it twice actually)
3278 2011-05-21 18:53:04 <x5x> given 2^256 inputs, there are def some dups
3279 2011-05-21 18:53:12 <mtrlt> if the resulting hash is good, then WOOHOO
3280 2011-05-21 18:53:13 <x5x> so tehre will be "unused" outputs
3281 2011-05-21 18:53:20 <mtrlt> if the resulting hash is below target, that is
3282 2011-05-21 18:53:54 <sacarlson> devrandom: I never saw the answer to how does the api interface to each of the participants without them all knowing eaches IP address or is that somehow found from the address?
3283 2011-05-21 18:54:02 <pfifo> x5x, and if and only if sha256 could produce all 2^256 possible outputs, give any dataset of any size, then double sha256 is a weakness
3284 2011-05-21 18:55:05 <x5x> pfifo, i dont think its a weakness because regardless of the size of the possible input, itll stil take the same # of inputs before u find a collission statistically
3285 2011-05-21 18:55:18 <x5x> possible inputs*
3286 2011-05-21 18:55:26 <sacarlson> devrandom: without direct comunications to each your api seems imposible, and also it seems to break the rule of knowing who anyone is
3287 2011-05-21 18:55:57 <pfifo> x5x, in practice yes, its not "weak enough" but still, it is a possible problem
3288 2011-05-21 18:56:24 <pfifo> x5x, its still betterr than md5 ;)
3289 2011-05-21 18:56:25 luke-jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3290 2011-05-21 18:56:34 <x5x> pfifo, im pretty sure its not a problem cosndiering HMACs do exactly that (double hashing) to prevent length extension attacks
3291 2011-05-21 18:56:52 <sacarlson> devrandom: or I should say the rule of NOT know who anyone is.
3292 2011-05-21 18:57:00 <diki> so, mtrlt hoew does one pool erm...detect/know when it has found a block and when the new round started?
3293 2011-05-21 18:57:27 <devrandom> sacarlson - p2p communication between the participants is outside the scope of what I'm working on... you'll have to design something for that.
3294 2011-05-21 18:57:32 <mtrlt> diki: it receives shares. if a share is below the actual target (and not the diff 1 target that was given to miners), then it has found a block
3295 2011-05-21 18:57:49 <mtrlt> if a share's double-sha256 hash is below the actual target*
3296 2011-05-21 18:58:23 gat3way has joined
3297 2011-05-21 18:58:32 <sacarlson> devrandom: well my method seem to sercomvent that by making the users of the escrow decide on the method of comunication to move the keys
3298 2011-05-21 18:58:58 <pfifo> x5x, i have no idea there, just though this up cause of working with bitcoin lately, It would be intersting to test it, but Id rather use my khases on something else
3299 2011-05-21 18:59:03 <diki> no my point is how do the pools log in their databases of choicr that they found a block at X date and new round started at X time
3300 2011-05-21 18:59:13 <sacarlson> devrandom: I guess with that there could be another application wraper that could perform it with p2p coms
3301 2011-05-21 18:59:27 <diki> I am trying to understand the process so i can implement this in pushpool(as it's not there by default)
3302 2011-05-21 18:59:45 <mtrlt> ummm, insert a row in a table?
3303 2011-05-21 18:59:54 <devrandom> sacarlson - there's not that much difference between our methods... what I call addresses (a_i) you call keys
3304 2011-05-21 19:00:03 <mtrlt> into
3305 2011-05-21 19:00:11 <diki> but erm...pushpool sends the shares to bitcoin...
3306 2011-05-21 19:00:24 <diki> bitcoin doesnt send the pool software that it found a block
3307 2011-05-21 19:00:39 <sacarlson> devrandom: I assumed a1, a2 .. was bitcoin address what is (a_i)
3308 2011-05-21 19:00:47 <mtrlt> diki: ah, i dunno about that :P
3309 2011-05-21 19:01:13 <sacarlson> devrandom: for my example the <key> was just a password that unlocked the transaction
3310 2011-05-21 19:01:13 <devrandom> a_i is just a_1 through a_n
3311 2011-05-21 19:01:27 <devrandom> a bitcoin address is equivalent to a key
3312 2011-05-21 19:01:34 <mtrlt> diki: it could compare the hash to the current target.
3313 2011-05-21 19:01:53 <mtrlt> i dunno how invalid blocks would be handled though etc.
3314 2011-05-21 19:02:58 <sacarlson> devrandom: but I assume the a_i or aX are what come from the reciever providing the results of bitcoind getnewaddress
3315 2011-05-21 19:03:10 <diki> you see, i already bought a domain for a pool i want to make, but then i found out that there a lot of things that need to be implemented...
3316 2011-05-21 19:03:37 <diki> like what i just talked about...block mining time, round start time...
3317 2011-05-21 19:03:50 <diki> 100 blocks confirmation etc
3318 2011-05-21 19:05:03 <devrandom> sacarlson - yes
3319 2011-05-21 19:05:21 <devrandom> sacarlson - a_i is an address that participant i controls
3320 2011-05-21 19:05:23 <sacarlson> devrandom: for example the reciever sent his address to a sender to setup a escrow, the sender get it and does: bitcoind sendwithescrow mhfyCBuYSW4PxF7VqrGbrjCo8oK9WVwBdZ theunlockpassword
3321 2011-05-21 19:05:44 <sacarlson> opps forgot the amount
3322 2011-05-21 19:05:58 <devrandom> sacarlson - I have to go, will be on later
3323 2011-05-21 19:06:05 <jgarzik> diki: the share log stores precisely when pushpool found a block, and a new round started
3324 2011-05-21 19:06:08 pyros1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3325 2011-05-21 19:06:12 <sacarlson> devrandom: ok thanks for the input
3326 2011-05-21 19:06:34 <diki> share.log in /tmp/ ?
3327 2011-05-21 19:06:37 <devrandom> same here
3328 2011-05-21 19:07:13 <jgarzik> SIGH. share.log is whereever your config tells it to go.
3329 2011-05-21 19:07:16 <jgarzik> We've been over this.
3330 2011-05-21 19:07:25 <diki> Then jgarzik, in the shares table, why next to before the IP there is :ffff: thing?
3331 2011-05-21 19:07:56 <jgarzik> diki: that's IPv6 address notation
3332 2011-05-21 19:07:57 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3333 2011-05-21 19:08:06 <diki> can i remove it?
3334 2011-05-21 19:08:10 <diki> it would spare me the bytes
3335 2011-05-21 19:08:23 <gjs278> ;;bc,mtgox
3336 2011-05-21 19:08:23 <jgarzik> it's open source, you can do anything you like
3337 2011-05-21 19:08:24 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.6,"low":5.5772,"vol":47885,"buy":5.93,"sell":5.9499,"last":5.93}}
3338 2011-05-21 19:08:24 FabianB_ has joined
3339 2011-05-21 19:08:43 ntosme2 has joined
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3341 2011-05-21 19:09:08 <diki> In sqlite3 db i see that there is a time field, whilist in db-mysql it's missing, is it intentional?
3342 2011-05-21 19:09:41 <jgarzik> diki: you have complete control over the SQL statement used, so you can put in a time field if you want one
3343 2011-05-21 19:09:47 <jgarzik> diki: it's up to the pool operator
3344 2011-05-21 19:09:52 <diki> I tried porting the gettimeofday thing to db-mysql.c but the pool started acting weird...
3345 2011-05-21 19:10:05 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3346 2011-05-21 19:10:15 glassresistor has joined
3347 2011-05-21 19:11:18 <diki> I've pretty much then figured out how stuff should work...users table will contain a share field where the total shares from all workers will be saved
3348 2011-05-21 19:11:31 <diki> rather, it will be updated
3349 2011-05-21 19:12:08 luke-jr has joined
3350 2011-05-21 19:12:14 <diki> All workers for the particular users :P
3351 2011-05-21 19:12:45 <diki> I might in the future make a guide on how to install pushpoold and configure it with mysql
3352 2011-05-21 19:12:47 DavidSJ has quit (Quit: DavidSJ)
3353 2011-05-21 19:13:27 <diki> But i am currently working on porting it to windows
3354 2011-05-21 19:15:08 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3355 2011-05-21 19:16:15 <diki> That...and to wonder how to console my best friend, who today lost his father
3356 2011-05-21 19:16:38 ntosme21 has joined
3357 2011-05-21 19:17:09 ntosme21 has quit (Client Quit)
3358 2011-05-21 19:17:59 ntosme2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3359 2011-05-21 19:18:16 <pfifo> diki, tell him "Tide goes in, tide goes out"
3360 2011-05-21 19:18:37 <diki> My mother soon will be prepped for surgery as she has some case of cancer...
3361 2011-05-21 19:19:08 <diki> And if something happens, the doctors won't be so lucky to get a payment for killing people
3362 2011-05-21 19:19:08 Kiba has joined
3363 2011-05-21 19:20:01 <pfifo> My mom beat thyroid cancer, every 2 years they give her a pill of irradiated iodine, and people and pets cant go within 25 feet of her
3364 2011-05-21 19:20:39 <diki> but in america, surgeons are skilled. Here they cut and slice and the end result is none
3365 2011-05-21 19:20:54 <diki> My grandpa died because those idiots never checked their equipment
3366 2011-05-21 19:21:01 <diki> Now they killed my best friend's father
3367 2011-05-21 19:21:03 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3368 2011-05-21 19:21:13 <diki> And the worse part, they get paid in the end..
3369 2011-05-21 19:21:13 <pfifo> all our surgeons come from mena and india
3370 2011-05-21 19:21:34 <diki> and all our surgeons are old people
3371 2011-05-21 19:21:40 <diki> some 60 some 50 some 70
3372 2011-05-21 19:21:54 <diki> years old
3373 2011-05-21 19:22:08 <pfifo> id want to kill someone too if I was still working at 70
3374 2011-05-21 19:22:44 <diki> How rare is B- as it seems my friend's father was B-
3375 2011-05-21 19:22:50 <diki> or B+
3376 2011-05-21 19:22:53 marlowe has joined
3377 2011-05-21 19:23:00 marlowe has quit (Client Quit)
3378 2011-05-21 19:23:24 <pfifo> not sure, i know A is the most common tho
3379 2011-05-21 19:23:25 marlowe has joined
3380 2011-05-21 19:24:18 <luke-jr> diki: don't assume Americans are skilled
3381 2011-05-21 19:24:29 <pfifo> yeah not a good idea XD
3382 2011-05-21 19:25:15 <diki> The hospitals in america are equipped with better tech
3383 2011-05-21 19:25:32 <diki> If a person's heart fails, a signal is sent to a pager of the doctor
3384 2011-05-21 19:25:37 <diki> here, no such thing exists afaik
3385 2011-05-21 19:25:51 <diki> and they find the person dead, when they do a regular checkup
3386 2011-05-21 19:25:53 <sacarlson> luke-jr: I resent that I'm an American and I'm skilled at drinking large quantities of beer
3387 2011-05-21 19:26:01 Rudycoin has joined
3388 2011-05-21 19:27:06 <pfifo> in the local hospital all the ekgs have their readouts at the nurses station, doesnt mean the nurses arent sleeping
3389 2011-05-21 19:28:12 <diki> I once called the hospital...do you know what i was told? "Why did you wake me up"....and not with a normal tone, she was shouting
3390 2011-05-21 19:28:15 <luke-jr> diki: here, doctors regularly kill people too
3391 2011-05-21 19:28:21 <luke-jr> often intentionally
3392 2011-05-21 19:28:36 MasterChief has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3393 2011-05-21 19:28:55 <diki> and here is...?
3394 2011-05-21 19:29:24 karnac has joined
3395 2011-05-21 19:29:31 GarrettB has joined
3396 2011-05-21 19:29:31 GarrettB has quit (Changing host)
3397 2011-05-21 19:29:31 GarrettB has joined
3398 2011-05-21 19:29:54 <luke-jr> diki: America
3399 2011-05-21 19:30:13 <Kiba> luke-jr: ready for the end of the world?
3400 2011-05-21 19:30:21 <luke-jr> Kiba: you buy that bs?
3401 2011-05-21 19:30:34 <diki> The end of the world has started. All the raids, riots around the world lately
3402 2011-05-21 19:30:39 <Kiba> luke-jr: no. lol
3403 2011-05-21 19:30:43 <diki> even here...
3404 2011-05-21 19:30:49 <luke-jr> lol
3405 2011-05-21 19:30:55 <Kiba> diki: there's always riots and raids
3406 2011-05-21 19:31:03 <diki> Basically, from what i gathered. The turkish people are evil by nature
3407 2011-05-21 19:31:04 <luke-jr> the end of the world started when the world began ;)
3408 2011-05-21 19:31:05 <Kiba> what else is new?
3409 2011-05-21 19:31:15 <luke-jr> diki: all people are evil by nature
3410 2011-05-21 19:31:23 <diki> Cause they enslaved my country for 400 years
3411 2011-05-21 19:33:21 <jfksir> america: ranked #1 in confidence
3412 2011-05-21 19:33:40 <diki> i believe a lot in america
3413 2011-05-21 19:33:57 <luke-jr> I hope America fall apart.
3414 2011-05-21 19:34:07 <diki> the only problem i see, is that i could get stabbed or shot in america
3415 2011-05-21 19:34:11 <jfksir> luke-jr: why?
3416 2011-05-21 19:34:17 <jeremias> lol
3417 2011-05-21 19:34:32 <jeremias> there has always been people who tell that doomsday is near...
3418 2011-05-21 19:34:41 <jeremias> i guess as long as there has been humans
3419 2011-05-21 19:34:41 <luke-jr> jfksir: so new States can be made, hopefully some half-sane
3420 2011-05-21 19:34:56 <diki> You guys probably wont believe it, but my country experienced it's first armed robbery with hostages this year
3421 2011-05-21 19:35:00 <diki> the first ever...
3422 2011-05-21 19:35:06 <jfksir> luke-jr: what makes you so sure half-sane is even achievable?
3423 2011-05-21 19:35:07 <jeremias> diki: where do you live
3424 2011-05-21 19:35:11 <diki> Bulgaria
3425 2011-05-21 19:35:13 <jeremias> ok
3426 2011-05-21 19:35:16 <luke-jr> jfksir: because it's been done
3427 2011-05-21 19:35:45 <jfksir> luke-jr: where you're living, you're saying?
3428 2011-05-21 19:35:48 <luke-jr> no
3429 2011-05-21 19:35:57 <luke-jr> the Middle Ages saw a lot of half-sane States
3430 2011-05-21 19:36:23 <diki> America should be proud. It wasn't enslaved
3431 2011-05-21 19:36:31 <luke-jr> nothing wrong with slavery
3432 2011-05-21 19:36:59 <jfksir> why don't you sign up?
3433 2011-05-21 19:37:04 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3434 2011-05-21 19:37:07 <jfksir> i'm sure you could find someone to take you as a slave
3435 2011-05-21 19:37:11 <diki> The differences are big...my people are not used to people of different races(no racism intended here)
3436 2011-05-21 19:38:41 <diki> But one thing that i can do is, i can spot a Bulgarian anywhere...
3437 2011-05-21 19:38:46 oneman has joined
3438 2011-05-21 19:38:52 redMBA has joined
3439 2011-05-21 19:39:02 <diki> anywhere in a foreign country
3440 2011-05-21 19:40:05 <jfksir> diki: never get those southern romanians confused with bulgarians?
3441 2011-05-21 19:40:23 <diki> well i havent seen romanians...
3442 2011-05-21 19:40:41 <luke-jr> jfksir: I wouldn't mind, if I could find a good master.
3443 2011-05-21 19:40:44 <diki> the catch is: every bulgarian girl has the same hairstyle...as for men..i could tell by faces
3444 2011-05-21 19:40:58 <diki> Everyone in my town kinda looks the same even if the facial structure is different
3445 2011-05-21 19:41:00 <jfksir> luke-jr: well, i can tell you you're ina tiny minority there
3446 2011-05-21 19:41:06 m00p has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3447 2011-05-21 19:41:51 <jfksir> luke-jr: maybe you should start like an online dating service but for helping slaves find masters and vice-versa
3448 2011-05-21 19:41:51 <diki> 8 mill country...actually less cause people are leaving the country to live elsewhere
3449 2011-05-21 19:42:06 <luke-jr> jfksir: it's not legal anywhere, afaik
3450 2011-05-21 19:42:47 <jfksir> i doubt anyone would notice....they'd just assume you were being kinky
3451 2011-05-21 19:43:04 <diki> By american standards, would a pedophile be considered a guy who is nearly 30 and dating a girl which is 15?
3452 2011-05-21 19:43:31 <jfksir> well, you'd be more of a statutory rapist
3453 2011-05-21 19:43:47 <diki> oh no, not me
3454 2011-05-21 19:44:05 <diki> But almost every person in my country has a girlfriend younger with at least 10-15 years
3455 2011-05-21 19:44:29 <mtrlt> cultural differences :P muhammed fucked a 9-year-old
3456 2011-05-21 19:44:33 <diki> i call them...pedophiles
3457 2011-05-21 19:45:06 <luke-jr> diki: there's a 32-year old in #timeofeve who wants to propose to a 16 year old
3458 2011-05-21 19:45:21 <jfksir> diki: i think every US state the min age is 16 or higher
3459 2011-05-21 19:45:38 <jfksir> so in many states here 16 would be legal, but awfully stetchy
3460 2011-05-21 19:45:47 <diki> It should be raised...i am sick of pedophiles everywhere
3461 2011-05-21 19:45:54 <gjs278> hahahaha
3462 2011-05-21 19:45:57 <mtrlt> lol
3463 2011-05-21 19:46:20 <mtrlt> diki: fwiw, a pedophile is someone who is interested in below 13-year-olds (by definition)
3464 2011-05-21 19:46:30 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3465 2011-05-21 19:46:40 <diki> 16 aint that far
3466 2011-05-21 19:46:41 <jfksir> i've always been under the impression that pedophile was for people who targetted a younger age bracket
3467 2011-05-21 19:46:48 <jfksir> but, i'm hardly an expert
3468 2011-05-21 19:46:49 <mtrlt> diki: but it still doesn't fit the definition.
3469 2011-05-21 19:47:08 <mtrlt> jfksir: yea i've had too much spare time with wikipedia :P
3470 2011-05-21 19:47:11 <diki> And the other problem in my country is....short people
3471 2011-05-21 19:47:14 <luke-jr> diki: it should not be raised
3472 2011-05-21 19:47:25 <jfksir> i just know about ageofconsent.com
3473 2011-05-21 19:47:25 <diki> My sister is like 1.55 meters
3474 2011-05-21 19:47:34 <jfksir> and i remember the name cause i thought it was funny
3475 2011-05-21 19:47:58 <luke-jr> while I think it's⦠odd⦠for a 30+ year old to be involved with a 15 year old, two 14 year olds should be allowed to marry if they are mature enough
3476 2011-05-21 19:48:22 <mtrlt> how do you measure maturity?
3477 2011-05-21 19:48:33 <diki> i bet you didn't expect if i told you about a 50 year old guy in a relationship with a 16(back then) girl
3478 2011-05-21 19:48:35 <luke-jr> mtrlt: parental consent is one way
3479 2011-05-21 19:48:45 <mtrlt> mmyea
3480 2011-05-21 19:48:49 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
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3482 2011-05-21 19:49:19 <jfksir> diki: the fact is your impressions about how old is 'old enough' are very much based on your experience being alive, and not some supported scientific claim
3483 2011-05-21 19:49:21 <luke-jr> in practice, 99% of Americans are way too immature even in their 20s and 30s, but the few that are shouldn't be punished for that
3484 2011-05-21 19:49:40 <diki> This is my own impression
3485 2011-05-21 19:49:42 <jfksir> diki: so it's hard not to expect there is quite a wide range in that age
3486 2011-05-21 19:50:41 <jfksir> i know from just people i know that lots of young women actively seek men decades older than they are
3487 2011-05-21 19:50:54 <jfksir> some women are just into that who knows why
3488 2011-05-21 19:50:57 misterx has joined
3489 2011-05-21 19:51:18 <misterx> has anyone had troubles using kiv's gui miner?
3490 2011-05-21 19:51:40 <diki> misterx: none ever
3491 2011-05-21 19:52:35 DukeOfURL has joined
3492 2011-05-21 19:52:42 <misterx> k, cause I've just installed a 6950 but when I load up the guiminer it sends it directly to a guiminer.exe.log and I was using a 460gtx before uninstalled drivers and such
3493 2011-05-21 19:52:52 <diki> are you sure?
3494 2011-05-21 19:52:56 <misterx> yup....
3495 2011-05-21 19:52:58 <luke-jr> jfksir: women have by far been simply ruined by modern liberal society
3496 2011-05-21 19:53:01 <diki> that is usually the main reason poclbm wouldnt start
3497 2011-05-21 19:53:07 <misterx> reinstalled the ati drivers twice
3498 2011-05-21 19:53:09 <diki> all nvidia crap destroy it
3499 2011-05-21 19:53:17 <diki> did you use driver sweeper?
3500 2011-05-21 19:53:22 <misterx> no I did not
3501 2011-05-21 19:53:32 <diki> try using it to remove everything called nvidia
3502 2011-05-21 19:53:39 <diki> for me, i fixed my problem like that
3503 2011-05-21 19:53:40 <misterx> k I;ll try that nore
3504 2011-05-21 19:53:50 <diki> It was PhysX doing some weird crap
3505 2011-05-21 19:54:11 <diki> Also, which drivers?
3506 2011-05-21 19:54:31 <diki> you must install the newest ones or at least 11.4 with Ati Stream SDK 2.4(no problems with it)
3507 2011-05-21 19:54:43 <misterx> installed 11.5 and sdk 2.4
3508 2011-05-21 19:55:01 <diki> what do your logs say>?
3509 2011-05-21 19:55:07 vorlov has joined
3510 2011-05-21 19:55:27 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: just curious... are you aware of a mechanism to generate java classes from xml schemas, with relational database for persistence?
3511 2011-05-21 19:55:51 <vegard> sounds like Hibernate?
3512 2011-05-21 19:55:52 <misterx> this what the log says: Traceback (most recent call last): File "guiminer.py", line 1921, in <module> File "guiminer.py", line 1911, in run File "guiminer.py", line 1460, in __init__ File "guiminer.py", line 1610, in load_config File "json\__init__.pyo", line 267, in load File "json\__init__.pyo", line 307, in loads File "json\decoder.pyo", line 319, in decode File "json\decoder.pyo", line 338, in raw_decode Val
3513 2011-05-21 19:56:19 <diki> yup
3514 2011-05-21 19:56:23 <misterx> btw 3dguru doesn't have any dl sites for driver sweeper
3515 2011-05-21 19:56:23 <diki> i also got that error
3516 2011-05-21 19:56:33 <diki> i removed every nvidia crap i had and it automagically fixed itself
3517 2011-05-21 19:56:33 Beremat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3518 2011-05-21 19:56:44 <diki> it has, it's a bit hidden tho
3519 2011-05-21 19:56:47 <diki> hard to find etc
3520 2011-05-21 19:56:58 <jfksir> luke-jr: i don't think most women would agree with you
3521 2011-05-21 19:57:00 <misterx> may have found it thru major geeks
3522 2011-05-21 19:57:11 vorlov has quit (Client Quit)
3523 2011-05-21 19:57:34 <diki> Most girls in my country seek cool guys-i don't fall in that cat.
3524 2011-05-21 19:57:35 <jfksir> luke-jr: and i don't think they do or should care what you think
3525 2011-05-21 19:57:59 <diki> I am what girls in america would call-loser
3526 2011-05-21 19:58:13 <luke-jr> jfksir: of course not, they've been ruined
3527 2011-05-21 19:58:33 <jfksir> luke-jr: also i don't think you'll win any friends by telling everyone you know what's best for them
3528 2011-05-21 19:58:45 <luke-jr> jfksir: they think they're men
3529 2011-05-21 19:58:48 <luke-jr> I don't need friends.
3530 2011-05-21 19:58:55 <diki> i have only 2
3531 2011-05-21 19:58:56 <jfksir> luke-jr: they really don't think they are men
3532 2011-05-21 20:00:12 <misterx> @diki - should I uninstall the ati drivers then run driver sweeper?
3533 2011-05-21 20:00:35 <diki> erm, try removing any nvidia stuff first
3534 2011-05-21 20:00:42 <diki> usually it's done in safe mode...
3535 2011-05-21 20:04:42 misterx has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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3552 2011-05-21 20:29:39 <DukeOfURL> luke-jr: ruined how?
3553 2011-05-21 20:29:42 darbsllim_ has joined
3554 2011-05-21 20:29:58 <darbsllim_> hey guys
3555 2011-05-21 20:30:04 <darbsllim_> anyone renting a mining server?
3556 2011-05-21 20:31:43 <diki> price?
3557 2011-05-21 20:33:04 luke-jr has joined
3558 2011-05-21 20:33:22 <diki> what hte.
3559 2011-05-21 20:33:25 <diki> *the
3560 2011-05-21 20:33:31 <diki> luke you have an ipv6 address?
3561 2011-05-21 20:34:57 <idnar> yes, he does
3562 2011-05-21 20:35:31 <idnar> I'm connected over v6 too, although it's not immediately obvious since my IP resolves back to a hostname
3563 2011-05-21 20:36:05 <diki> pretty obvious to me 2001:470:5*******
3564 2011-05-21 20:36:35 <darbsllim_> diki I saw this video
3565 2011-05-21 20:36:36 <darbsllim_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBC_8R9gcN0&feature=channel_video_title
3566 2011-05-21 20:36:53 <darbsllim_> he talks about how he is making lots of (theoretical) profits by renting mining servers
3567 2011-05-21 20:37:18 <idnar> diki: no, I mean, *my* v6 address isn't immediately obvious (but it shows up in /whois I believe)
3568 2011-05-21 20:37:34 <diki> im still on ipv4
3569 2011-05-21 20:37:46 <diki> although ipconfig does have some v6 address too
3570 2011-05-21 20:37:54 JSharp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3571 2011-05-21 20:38:46 <devrandom1> ;;later tell BlueMatt first pass at downloader https://gist.github.com/806265
3572 2011-05-21 20:38:47 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
3573 2011-05-21 20:38:50 ahudgjba has joined
3574 2011-05-21 20:38:53 Gui_0 has quit (Disconnected by services)
3575 2011-05-21 20:39:02 ahudgjba is now known as Gui_0
3576 2011-05-21 20:39:05 Gui_0 has quit (Changing host)
3577 2011-05-21 20:39:06 Gui_0 has joined
3578 2011-05-21 20:39:12 Gui_0 has left ()
3579 2011-05-21 20:39:12 Gui_0 has joined
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3581 2011-05-21 20:39:35 <diki> i've seen a lot of people do signed pgp messages on the forums
3582 2011-05-21 20:39:38 <diki> those are for?
3583 2011-05-21 20:40:40 <idnar> it provides a stronger guarantee of identity than just "was posted by this person"
3584 2011-05-21 20:40:58 <diki> no guarantee is safe guarantee
3585 2011-05-21 20:41:19 <idnar> also, if you have a copy of the message, then the poster can't later "take it back" by deleting the post or something like that
3586 2011-05-21 20:41:36 <idnar> (I'm not sure if there's some specific case you have in mind, I'm just giving general reasons to pgp sign a message)
3587 2011-05-21 20:43:22 <diki> ofc he can take it back
3588 2011-05-21 20:44:23 <roconnor> anyone understand the purpose behind the subscript markers and the funny signature method?
3589 2011-05-21 20:45:11 <idnar> diki: well, he can delete the message, but if you have a copy of it, he can't delete your copy, and you have the signature to "prove" that you didn't make the whole thing up
3590 2011-05-21 20:47:09 J0h___ has joined
3591 2011-05-21 20:48:21 <Diablo-D3> [03:49:01] <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: just curious... are you aware of a mechanism to generate java classes from xml schemas, with relational database for persistence?
3592 2011-05-21 20:48:26 <Diablo-D3> so... hibernate?
3593 2011-05-21 20:48:48 currentB has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3594 2011-05-21 20:49:07 <diki> sure, but it doesnt mean the person who signed it will keep his promise
3595 2011-05-21 20:49:36 JSharp has joined
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3599 2011-05-21 20:52:55 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: jaxb creates annotated classes from .xsd, but I'd need to manually annotate them with hibernate each time they were rebuilt
3600 2011-05-21 20:53:10 WakiMiko has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3601 2011-05-21 20:53:25 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3602 2011-05-21 20:53:32 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: you nay be working at cross purposes there
3603 2011-05-21 20:54:18 mtrlt_ is now known as mtrlt
3604 2011-05-21 20:55:19 prax has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3605 2011-05-21 20:56:02 <diki> On ubuntu, why does it take a lot of time to open up bitcoin and why does it bottleneck my HDD?
3606 2011-05-21 20:56:13 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: xml schema -> jaxb -> jpa not entirely the best idea
3607 2011-05-21 20:56:14 prax has joined
3608 2011-05-21 20:56:33 tasha3 has joined
3609 2011-05-21 20:56:55 <idnar> diki: loading the block chain, I think
3610 2011-05-21 20:57:00 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: yeah, the only mechanism I can devise is some automatic ad-hoc code generation
3611 2011-05-21 20:57:59 <diki> any optimization advice for my natty nar..something?
3612 2011-05-21 20:58:05 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3613 2011-05-21 20:58:06 <diki> Like stopping services i dont need
3614 2011-05-21 21:00:04 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: jaxb's one major flaw is it doesnt map everyhing the same way jpa does
3615 2011-05-21 21:00:26 gjs278 has joined
3616 2011-05-21 21:01:30 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: but I find the entire thing retarded
3617 2011-05-21 21:01:59 blueadept has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3618 2011-05-21 21:02:03 <Diablo-D3> I'd rather make JPA-specific shit that handles the JAXB objects as fields of the JPA POJOs
3619 2011-05-21 21:02:14 <devon_hillard> was hoping for a painless XSD data -> Java -> db (persistence)
3620 2011-05-21 21:02:41 <devon_hillard> of course, there's the option of just using an xml database rather than a relational one
3621 2011-05-21 21:02:41 pyros1 has joined
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3625 2011-05-21 21:03:02 <Diablo-D3> devon_hillard: what Im saying is, its two different models of storing data
3626 2011-05-21 21:03:34 <Diablo-D3> xml is simply not good at storing data the way databases are designed
3627 2011-05-21 21:05:16 <tasha3> there's some xml databases...
3628 2011-05-21 21:05:19 <tasha3> but they just seem... weird
3629 2011-05-21 21:05:38 <Diablo-D3> thats part of the whole nosql movement
3630 2011-05-21 21:05:58 <Diablo-D3> pure doucment databases (the kind devon would be looking at) generally are solving the problem wrong
3631 2011-05-21 21:06:02 <tasha3> SELECT * FROM movement WHERE type = 'nosql'
3632 2011-05-21 21:06:28 <Diablo-D3> what you REALLY want, if you want that xsd so badly, is to generate it off of your jpa annotated classes instead
3633 2011-05-21 21:06:40 <Diablo-D3> such as hand annotate said jpa classes with jaxb annotations
3634 2011-05-21 21:06:44 <Diablo-D3> and tell it to generate the xsd
3635 2011-05-21 21:06:48 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, Im going to bed
3636 2011-05-21 21:06:50 <Diablo-D3> night all
3637 2011-05-21 21:07:24 <tasha3> xsd = evil
3638 2011-05-21 21:07:46 skeledrew1 has joined
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3641 2011-05-21 21:09:40 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3642 2011-05-21 21:09:47 <devon_hillard> Diablo-D3: thanks
3643 2011-05-21 21:11:22 Cusipzzz has joined
3644 2011-05-21 21:12:03 redMBA has joined
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3646 2011-05-21 21:13:13 castelamare has joined
3647 2011-05-21 21:17:34 <tasha3> so my tests with php + jsorpc lib are going well
3648 2011-05-21 21:17:38 <tasha3> now I need a project name
3649 2011-05-21 21:17:47 <tasha3> phpMyBitcoin is already taken!
3650 2011-05-21 21:18:34 <tasha3> maybe bitcoin-skins
3651 2011-05-21 21:19:53 <jfksir> phpMyBTC?
3652 2011-05-21 21:20:45 <tasha3> Yet Another PHP Bitcoin Project
3653 2011-05-21 21:20:47 <tasha3> YAPBP
3654 2011-05-21 21:20:54 castelamare has left ()
3655 2011-05-21 21:21:13 <Namegduf> BitYourCoin
3656 2011-05-21 21:21:29 <tasha3> Coin Biter
3657 2011-05-21 21:21:37 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
3658 2011-05-21 21:21:37 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":6.5199,"low":5.5772,"vol":41859,"buy":5.9001,"sell":5.99,"last":5.99}}
3659 2011-05-21 21:21:39 <tasha3> phpChomp
3660 2011-05-21 21:22:13 <tasha3> Coin out with your Bit out
3661 2011-05-21 21:23:09 e2daipi has joined
3662 2011-05-21 21:23:31 ezl has joined
3663 2011-05-21 21:24:55 e2daipi has quit (Client Quit)
3664 2011-05-21 21:25:35 <tasha3> hmm bitcoind binary included in windows distribution is not x64 compatible
3665 2011-05-21 21:25:36 <tasha3> oops
3666 2011-05-21 21:25:59 _fdf has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3667 2011-05-21 21:27:00 stex131 has quit ()
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3673 2011-05-21 21:39:48 <comboy> anybody familiar with phantom (anonymity)? is it worth diving in?
3674 2011-05-21 21:43:04 ezl has joined
3675 2011-05-21 21:48:55 rhett__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3676 2011-05-21 21:50:28 Beremat has joined
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3679 2011-05-21 21:54:51 <tasha3> alright! I generated my first block ( on testnet )
3680 2011-05-21 21:55:07 <tasha3> Generated coins must wait 120 blocks before they can be spent.
3681 2011-05-21 21:55:08 <MrHako> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/aticlock.png/ how is this possible?
3682 2011-05-21 21:55:13 <tasha3> didn't know that
3683 2011-05-21 21:55:15 sethsethseth___ has joined
3684 2011-05-21 21:55:34 <ArtForzZy> how is what possible?
3685 2011-05-21 21:55:48 <sipa> seems you're not mining
3686 2011-05-21 21:55:51 sethsethseth___ is now known as sethsethseth_
3687 2011-05-21 21:55:56 <ArtForzZy> yep, your GPUs are idle
3688 2011-05-21 21:56:25 <MrHako> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/aticlock.png/ my memory is underclocked to 300 from default 1200 as i flashed and rewrote bios. Now in aticonfig it still shows the old limit - 900-1200 as the current peak is 300?
3689 2011-05-21 21:56:45 ArtForzZy is now known as ArtForz
3690 2011-05-21 21:58:37 sethsethseth__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3691 2011-05-21 21:58:54 <lfm> in net.cpp there is a #ifdef USE_UPNP
3692 2011-05-21 21:59:34 <lfm> but the source does -DUSE_UPNP=0
3693 2011-05-21 21:59:55 <ArtForz> lfm: that's intended
3694 2011-05-21 22:00:20 <lfm> shoulkdnt it be #if USE_UPNP?
3695 2011-05-21 22:00:22 <ArtForz> you can either not define it to not compile it, #define to 0 for disabled by default, #define to 1 for enabled by default
3696 2011-05-21 22:00:38 <lfm> oic
3697 2011-05-21 22:03:31 <ArtForz> probably not the nicest way, but... can't think of any really elegant solution
3698 2011-05-21 22:04:36 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3699 2011-05-21 22:04:43 <lfm> maybe should have a comment in the makefile where it is defined
3700 2011-05-21 22:04:55 <sipa> USE_UPNP and UPNP_DEFAULT or so
3701 2011-05-21 22:08:53 <sneak> hey guys
3702 2011-05-21 22:09:17 <sneak> what's to stop a participant in a mining pool from modifying their client to only send near-misses to the pool and to submit solved nonces itself to the network for the full reward?
3703 2011-05-21 22:09:21 <ArtForz> sipa: yeah, that does sound better
3704 2011-05-21 22:10:08 <tasha3> sneak: technical know-how?
3705 2011-05-21 22:10:13 <sneak> tasha3: that's all?
3706 2011-05-21 22:10:22 theboos has joined
3707 2011-05-21 22:10:30 <sipa> sneak: there is no solution to that problem
3708 2011-05-21 22:10:33 <sneak> so i could get 99.9999999999% of pooled mining rewards, and 100% of rewards from actually finding blocks, thereby doubling my yield?
3709 2011-05-21 22:10:33 <tasha3> i'm guessing.. dunno what pools have in place for tracking
3710 2011-05-21 22:10:47 <sipa> sneak: it's the known vandalism attack to pools
3711 2011-05-21 22:10:53 <sneak> heh
3712 2011-05-21 22:11:01 <sneak> what's to stop people from submitting their near misses to multiple pools?
3713 2011-05-21 22:11:07 <sipa> they can't
3714 2011-05-21 22:11:11 <ArtForz> sneak: mainly that it doesnt work
3715 2011-05-21 22:11:27 <tasha3> each pool sends you differen work
3716 2011-05-21 22:11:29 <sipa> the work includes the coinbase's output address and coinbase nonce
3717 2011-05-21 22:11:30 <sneak> ahhh
3718 2011-05-21 22:11:31 <sneak> ok
3719 2011-05-21 22:11:35 <ArtForz> yep
3720 2011-05-21 22:11:36 <sipa> which is different for eachpool
3721 2011-05-21 22:11:43 <lfm> sneak they cant take em for themselves but they can refuse to send good ones in
3722 2011-05-21 22:11:54 <sneak> lfm: ahh got it
3723 2011-05-21 22:11:55 <ArtForz> yep, the pool vandalism attack is simply not sending block-winning shares at all
3724 2011-05-21 22:12:03 <sipa> but as said, vandalism is possible, but nobody gains anything from it
3725 2011-05-21 22:12:04 <sneak> but you don't actually get them for yourself
3726 2011-05-21 22:12:05 <neoeinstein> sneak, the nonce isn't the only variable. The merkle root is based on the transactions to be in the block, one of which includes a coinbase transaction that only the pool knows of.
3727 2011-05-21 22:12:07 <sneak> got it
3728 2011-05-21 22:12:14 <sneak> neoeinstein: that answers my question, thanks
3729 2011-05-21 22:12:18 <neoeinstein> It would be cryptographically difficult to reverse out what that transactionwas.
3730 2011-05-21 22:12:19 <ArtForz> which lwoers your own payout, too... so purely a griefer hobby
3731 2011-05-21 22:12:27 <sipa> neoeinstein: impossible
3732 2011-05-21 22:12:31 <sneak> ArtForz: how goes the mining?
3733 2011-05-21 22:12:33 <theboos> creating some bitcoin software; is there a semiofficial plural for Bitcoin? Is it capitalized? Bitcoin or BitCoin?
3734 2011-05-21 22:12:35 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
3735 2011-05-21 22:12:37 <ArtForz> sneak: fine
3736 2011-05-21 22:12:51 <sipa> theboos: the system, the implementation or the currency unit?
3737 2011-05-21 22:12:58 <theboos> sipa: the currency
3738 2011-05-21 22:13:00 <ArtForz> sipa: yes ;)
3739 2011-05-21 22:13:13 <neoeinstein> sipa: Using the computer science meaning of difficult (practically impossible) vs. trivial
3740 2011-05-21 22:13:35 <sneak> theboos: nothing about bitcoin is "official" :)
3741 2011-05-21 22:13:44 <sneak> that's why we have 6 currency symbols and 3 abbreviations
3742 2011-05-21 22:13:45 <sipa> neoeinstein: impossible as in: there are as more solutions to that problem than possible hashes
3743 2011-05-21 22:13:45 <theboos> sneak: was worried that'd be the answer :P
3744 2011-05-21 22:14:11 <theboos> 3 abbreviations!? what besides BTC?
3745 2011-05-21 22:14:16 Beremat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3746 2011-05-21 22:14:21 <sneak> bc
3747 2011-05-21 22:14:25 <sneak> there was another one
3748 2011-05-21 22:14:28 <sneak> i forget
3749 2011-05-21 22:14:31 <sneak> BTC$
3750 2011-05-21 22:14:45 <lfm> neoeinstein impossible as in it aint gonna happen no matter how much theory says it might happen
3751 2011-05-21 22:14:51 <sipa> neoeinstein: or better said, if i give you a candidate set of transactions, and their merkle root matches a header whose hash you know, there would still not be any reason to believe you have the correct one
3752 2011-05-21 22:15:21 <lfm> neoeinstein like predicting 256 coin tosses in a row
3753 2011-05-21 22:15:21 <theboos> hmm.. I guess I'll just use "Bitcoins" and "BTC" to match "Dollars" and "USD"
3754 2011-05-21 22:16:05 <ArtForz> lfm: thats easy if the coin isn't fair ;)
3755 2011-05-21 22:16:11 <sneak> they don't though, USD is standardized in ISO4217
3756 2011-05-21 22:16:19 <sneak> BTC is of course not
3757 2011-05-21 22:16:32 <sneak> then again GAU isn't either
3758 2011-05-21 22:16:36 <sneak> and that is used in several places
3759 2011-05-21 22:17:03 <sneak> oh, XAU XAG (troy ounces, not grams) are though
3760 2011-05-21 22:17:06 <sneak> didn't know that until just now
3761 2011-05-21 22:17:10 <lfm> and of course then there is theat no one ever heard of ISO4217
3762 2011-05-21 22:17:32 <sneak> lfm: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ISO_4217&action=history
3763 2011-05-21 22:17:37 Beremat has joined
3764 2011-05-21 22:17:41 <lfm> never heard of that either
3765 2011-05-21 22:17:53 <sneak> presumably you've heard of ISO
3766 2011-05-21 22:18:15 <sneak> iso 3166 is what defines the two-letter country specific TLDs
3767 2011-05-21 22:18:15 <lfm> sneak the great thing about standards is there are so many to choose from
3768 2011-05-21 22:18:43 <sneak> iso 4217 is the only one i know of for three-character alpha currency names though
3769 2011-05-21 22:19:07 <theboos> lfm: very well put :P
3770 2011-05-21 22:19:16 <lfm> sneak: well they would have to change it every time some new country is created or some dictator wants to change its name
3771 2011-05-21 22:19:43 <sneak> theboos: that was tannenbaum
3772 2011-05-21 22:19:47 <lfm> sneak so there would be many versions over history
3773 2011-05-21 22:20:32 <sneak> i am a microkernel fan though, otherwise i wouldn't have said anything :P
3774 2011-05-21 22:21:45 DukeOfURL has joined
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3784 2011-05-21 22:42:24 <kika_> is there any way to boot a computer without memory?
3785 2011-05-21 22:42:43 kardus has joined
3786 2011-05-21 22:42:45 <kika_> because i have a mobo that supports ddr3 and i have only ddr2 modules
3787 2011-05-21 22:42:52 <ArtForz> nope
3788 2011-05-21 22:43:14 <kardus> anyone have experience with pushpool?
3789 2011-05-21 22:43:31 <ArtForz> well, technically it *is* possible
3790 2011-05-21 22:43:58 <ArtForz> the BIOS does it before it sets mem timings
3791 2011-05-21 22:44:01 <sipa> ArtForz: using the cpu cache?
3792 2011-05-21 22:44:13 <ArtForz> yep, ROM + CPU cache
3793 2011-05-21 22:44:49 <kika_> can i place ddr2 memory on the m4a89gtd mobo?
3794 2011-05-21 22:44:51 <jrmithdobbs> wouldn't even be able to load the bootloader though
3795 2011-05-21 22:45:00 <jrmithdobbs> i don't know of any bootloaders designed to operate only in cpu cache, anyways
3796 2011-05-21 22:45:02 <sipa> kika_: google will tell you that
3797 2011-05-21 22:45:07 <jrmithdobbs> for x86
3798 2011-05-21 22:45:21 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: just use GPU memory ;)
3799 2011-05-21 22:45:34 <kika_> sipa: google seems to be telling me i cant lol
3800 2011-05-21 22:45:40 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: ya, i want ati's shit code fucking up my boot loader, sounds gr8! ;P
3801 2011-05-21 22:46:00 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: actually thats how a few mem testers manage to test *all* RAM
3802 2011-05-21 22:46:04 defel has joined
3803 2011-05-21 22:46:11 <ArtForz> they run off mapped framebuffer memory
3804 2011-05-21 22:46:18 <sipa> nice
3805 2011-05-21 22:46:24 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: nifty idea, learn something every day
3806 2011-05-21 22:46:33 <lfm> that could make for some cool displays
3807 2011-05-21 22:46:54 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: also explains why i've had some of those memory testers not boot on boxes with very small framebuffers, looking back, haha
3808 2011-05-21 22:47:04 eoss has joined
3809 2011-05-21 22:47:21 <directhex> kika_: only a couple of chipsets have ever supported 2 different types of ram on the same board. and none since memory controllers moved into the CPU
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3811 2011-05-21 22:47:42 <jrmithdobbs> directhex: <3 72 pin simms
3812 2011-05-21 22:48:00 <directhex> more recent ones. like an SDRAM/DDR board
3813 2011-05-21 22:48:02 <directhex> and a DDR/DDR2
3814 2011-05-21 22:48:10 <directhex> mostly dodgy chipsets from people like ALi
3815 2011-05-21 22:48:26 <jrmithdobbs> ya i haven't seen it since the sdram/ddr switch over tbqh
3816 2011-05-21 22:48:45 <jrmithdobbs> (although, those had mmus on chip too so think you're off there
3817 2011-05-21 22:48:46 <jrmithdobbs> )
3818 2011-05-21 22:49:35 <ArtForz> hacking together a combined ddr2/3 board technically could be possible
3819 2011-05-21 22:49:46 <jrmithdobbs> but why
3820 2011-05-21 22:49:55 <ArtForz> it's completely useless
3821 2011-05-21 22:49:59 <jrmithdobbs> people always say "disks are cheap" these day (which is a lie if you want good disks)
3822 2011-05-21 22:50:04 <jrmithdobbs> but "memory is cheap" is just plain true
3823 2011-05-21 22:50:04 <directhex> ECS had a board that took both athlon64 and pentium
3824 2011-05-21 22:50:05 <ArtForz> but techincally, it *could* work
3825 2011-05-21 22:50:18 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: buy a box with 32GB+ memory. say that again.
3826 2011-05-21 22:50:29 <ArtForz> memory is cheap if you need <= 16GB
3827 2011-05-21 22:50:37 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: yup, still stand by that statement
3828 2011-05-21 22:50:39 <ArtForz> beyond that it gets expensive fast
3829 2011-05-21 22:50:47 kardus has left ()
3830 2011-05-21 22:50:56 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: compared to 5 yars ago when 4GB was the "way too fucking expensive" point
3831 2011-05-21 22:51:00 <directhex> i miss the 1T box i used to manage
3832 2011-05-21 22:51:14 <ArtForz> also, who needs good disks?
3833 2011-05-21 22:51:29 <Namegduf> I have 16GB, looked at 32GB
3834 2011-05-21 22:51:33 <ArtForz> just use multiple cheap ones for nearline shit
3835 2011-05-21 22:51:43 <Namegduf> It'd have meant slower RAM and added £300 to the price.
3836 2011-05-21 22:51:51 <Namegduf> I have only four slots, though.
3837 2011-05-21 22:51:56 <Namegduf> With eight, the line doubles.
3838 2011-05-21 22:52:17 <Namegduf> 4GB DIMMs are the highest after which prices go crazy
3839 2011-05-21 22:52:25 <ArtForz> for "shitloads of ram for cheap-ish" ... socket g34 opteron workstation boards ;)
3840 2011-05-21 22:52:43 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: in general that's true but i've seen too much old shit legacy software people aren't willing to fix that relies on huge 8T+ fses to operate
3841 2011-05-21 22:52:43 <io-> if you need any asp legacy code worked on atlas does nothing but legacy asp code work all day long every day for the man (and dongs)
3842 2011-05-21 22:52:49 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: so good disks still have their place
3843 2011-05-21 22:53:25 <ArtForz> whats an 8T fs have to do with good disks?
3844 2011-05-21 22:53:43 <diki> somehow i screwed my python installation...
3845 2011-05-21 22:53:50 <diki> trying to run blkmond gives me errors
3846 2011-05-21 22:53:59 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: "disks are cheap" is a lie either way though, because you either pay for the licensing to do the nice management stuff in the hardware of the array, or you pay in dev time to split it out into commodity stuff
3847 2011-05-21 22:54:13 <ArtForz> I never said controllers are cheap
3848 2011-05-21 22:54:20 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3849 2011-05-21 22:54:47 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: good disks meaning netapp/etc because the systems i'm talking about, at least, also assume that the disks are going to "manage themselves" (aka, IT is going to hide all the headache from them)
3850 2011-05-21 22:54:59 <ArtForz> also, SAN vendors like to overcharge massively for their precious.
3851 2011-05-21 22:54:59 <jrmithdobbs> heh
3852 2011-05-21 22:55:04 <jrmithdobbs> aye
3853 2011-05-21 22:55:12 <jrmithdobbs> san is dieing
3854 2011-05-21 22:55:15 <jrmithdobbs> thank fucking god
3855 2011-05-21 22:55:36 <jrmithdobbs> it's getting relegated to corner cases (like vm consolidation) instead of the main storage infrastructure
3856 2011-05-21 22:55:51 <lfm> raid was supposed to work with cheap (inexpensive) drives
3857 2011-05-21 22:55:53 <kika_> directhex: so i cant place a ddr2 module on the m4a89gtd right? that would be the only module installed
3858 2011-05-21 22:55:57 <ArtForz> lfm: and it does
3859 2011-05-21 22:56:14 <mtrlt> kika_: if it takes ddr3, it takes ddr3 and not ddr2
3860 2011-05-21 22:56:17 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: just if you use too expensive you're now swapping failed drivers once a month or more, haha
3861 2011-05-21 22:56:30 <kika_> mtrlt: weird
3862 2011-05-21 22:56:30 <ArtForz> which isn't expensive
3863 2011-05-21 22:56:37 <mtrlt> kika_: how is it weird
3864 2011-05-21 22:56:48 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: prolly still save money
3865 2011-05-21 22:56:51 <kika_> mtrlt: its weird that i cant place a ddr2 memory on this mobo
3866 2011-05-21 22:56:51 <ArtForz> raid6+ over 7.2k SAS or SATA drives is still prtty much the cheapest nearline storage
3867 2011-05-21 22:57:12 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: nope you don't
3868 2011-05-21 22:57:14 <ArtForz> now if you needs loads of *fast* storage... good luck.
3869 2011-05-21 22:57:32 <jrmithdobbs> lfm: because you're paying the guy having to hassle with the vendors to get the replacements and to physically go swap them etc
3870 2011-05-21 22:57:39 <ArtForz> what?
3871 2011-05-21 22:57:43 <mtrlt> kika_: if unsure, google.
3872 2011-05-21 22:57:58 <kika_> mtrlt: google isnt telling me too muc
3873 2011-05-21 22:58:01 <kika_> much
3874 2011-05-21 22:58:21 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: i was saying if you go with *too cheap* a drive
3875 2011-05-21 22:58:29 <jrmithdobbs> eg, wd greens
3876 2011-05-21 22:58:31 <ArtForz> why do you have to hassle with vendors to get generic 7.2k SAS drives?
3877 2011-05-21 22:58:31 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: buy drives in bulk?
3878 2011-05-21 22:58:43 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: to replace under warranty
3879 2011-05-21 22:59:03 <ArtForz> no big problem if you're doing decent volume
3880 2011-05-21 22:59:07 <lfm> send case of bad drives at a time
3881 2011-05-21 22:59:08 <jrmithdobbs> whether you do it before or after replacing the failed drive doesn't matter, if you don't do it you're wasting money and get yelled at by management at some point
3882 2011-05-21 22:59:12 <ArtForz> we just RMA in bulk
3883 2011-05-21 22:59:19 <jrmithdobbs> ya but you still have to deal with it
3884 2011-05-21 22:59:43 <jrmithdobbs> and dealing with that isn't free like people imply is all i was saying
3885 2011-05-21 23:00:03 <ArtForz> unless you have *massive* arrays, still cheaper than going with "good" disks, and probably stil lcheaper then
3886 2011-05-21 23:00:13 <lfm> jrmithdobbs: your paying your people too much maybe
3887 2011-05-21 23:00:45 <ArtForz> and how slow are your techs anyways?
3888 2011-05-21 23:02:42 <lfm> wd greens? arnt thos e the slow ones? pay a premium for "low power"?
3889 2011-05-21 23:02:54 <ArtForz> yeah
3890 2011-05-21 23:03:16 <ArtForz> also, arent they non-24/7 rated?
3891 2011-05-21 23:05:36 <directhex> kika_: ddr3 and ddr2 have a different number of physical pins
3892 2011-05-21 23:05:44 <ArtForz> directhex: yep
3893 2011-05-21 23:05:46 <directhex> kika_: so if you get some scissors and a soldering iron...
3894 2011-05-21 23:06:24 <luke-jr> anyone know a good way to count shares?
3895 2011-05-21 23:06:39 <luke-jr> I'm using SELECT username, countâ
FROM shares ⦠GROUP BY username;
3896 2011-05-21 23:06:58 <luke-jr> but I found that changing it to SELECT username ⦠FROM shares; and counting in Python was faster -.-
3897 2011-05-21 23:09:25 <lupine_85> is username indexed ?
3898 2011-05-21 23:10:01 <lupine_85> in fact, why on earth are you using username ?
3899 2011-05-21 23:10:17 <lupine_85> that's not even 3NF
3900 2011-05-21 23:10:38 <lupine_85> use a foreign key, group by it, speed will follow
3901 2011-05-21 23:12:35 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: if it's faster to do in python then your schema is fucked up
3902 2011-05-21 23:12:46 <jrmithdobbs> (also lol mysql)
3903 2011-05-21 23:12:52 <lupine_85> it must be 1NF or 2NF
3904 2011-05-21 23:13:02 <lupine_85> which is quite scary
3905 2011-05-21 23:13:33 <luke-jr> lupine_85: wtf?
3906 2011-05-21 23:13:52 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: group by an indexed column
3907 2011-05-21 23:13:55 <jrmithdobbs> is what he's saying
3908 2011-05-21 23:14:04 <jrmithdobbs> preferably one with a UNIQUE constraint
3909 2011-05-21 23:14:11 sgornick has joined
3910 2011-05-21 23:14:28 <lupine_85> jrmithdobbs, well, there's not much point grouping on a UNIQUE column
3911 2011-05-21 23:14:43 <lupine_85> but shares.username should be shares.user_id <- users.id
3912 2011-05-21 23:15:14 <lupine_85> luke-jr, you can then index that foreign key, do an inner join if you need user.username, and group by the user id, which will be blindingly fast
3913 2011-05-21 23:15:15 jhulten has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3914 2011-05-21 23:15:17 <jrmithdobbs> lupine_85: but if one of the columns in the group by is unique it'll also help
3915 2011-05-21 23:15:34 <lupine_85> sure, but he's grouping by one column, currently username
3916 2011-05-21 23:15:50 <lupine_85> if username (or user_id in a normalised database) is unique, there's no need to group
3917 2011-05-21 23:16:25 * lupine_85 makes a note to continue avoiding luke-jr's pool ;)
3918 2011-05-21 23:16:30 <jrmithdobbs> lupine_85: it's not he's looking at the shares table in pushpool
3919 2011-05-21 23:16:46 <lupine_85> <luke-jr> I'm using SELECT username, countâ
FROM shares ⦠GROUP BY username;
3920 2011-05-21 23:17:51 <lupine_85> luke-jr, you probably want, in a sane schema, select users.name, count(1) from shares, users inner join shares.user_id on users.id group by shares.user_id;
3921 2011-05-21 23:17:58 <lupine_85> or something similar
3922 2011-05-21 23:18:26 <lupine_85> but until the database meets at least 3NF, and prefereably 4NF, you're not likely to get much speed out of it
3923 2011-05-21 23:18:37 <luke-jr> wtf is 3NF or 4NF
3924 2011-05-21 23:18:46 <lupine_85> "Nth normal form"
3925 2011-05-21 23:18:56 <luke-jr> English?
3926 2011-05-21 23:18:57 <lupine_85> elementary database design rules in a relational system
3927 2011-05-21 23:19:11 jhulten has joined
3928 2011-05-21 23:19:12 <ArtForz> luke-jr: did you live under a rock the last decades?
3929 2011-05-21 23:19:32 karnac has joined
3930 2011-05-21 23:19:34 <lupine_85> if you're trying to address something using relational algebra (which is what SQL is), you want your database to comply with 3rd or 4th normal form
3931 2011-05-21 23:19:35 ahbritto has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3932 2011-05-21 23:19:58 <lupine_85> wikipedia has a decent enough article covering what that actually means
3933 2011-05-21 23:20:26 <lupine_85> it can be summed up as "don't store the same piece of data in two different places, stupid", though
3934 2011-05-21 23:20:27 brooss has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3935 2011-05-21 23:20:38 <lupine_85> instead, use references to the data
3936 2011-05-21 23:20:39 brooss has joined
3937 2011-05-21 23:22:40 <luke-jr> so rewrite pushpool to use 3 inserts instead of 1?
3938 2011-05-21 23:22:47 <luke-jr> /modify
3939 2011-05-21 23:23:40 <luke-jr> of course then it also has to do a lookup to see if the username is already in the users table too
3940 2011-05-21 23:25:01 <lupine_85> *blink*
3941 2011-05-21 23:25:09 <lupine_85> do you want your database to be sane or not~?
3942 2011-05-21 23:25:41 <lupine_85> and do you want it to be even vaguely performant or not?
3943 2011-05-21 23:25:55 <luke-jr> just repeating what you seem to be suggesting
3944 2011-05-21 23:26:00 <lupine_85> once these tables get over a few million rows, you're going to have massive problems
3945 2011-05-21 23:26:08 <lupine_85> full-text search is very, very slow
3946 2011-05-21 23:26:26 BurningToad has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3947 2011-05-21 23:26:36 <luke-jr> only for MySQL apparently
3948 2011-05-21 23:26:41 mtrlt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3949 2011-05-21 23:26:55 <luke-jr> and something has to do the full-text search
3950 2011-05-21 23:26:57 <lupine_85> no, for all databases. the data are difficult to index
3951 2011-05-21 23:26:59 <luke-jr> either the insert or the select
3952 2011-05-21 23:27:12 Clipse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3953 2011-05-21 23:27:20 <lupine_85> you insert the user once. you select the data many times
3954 2011-05-21 23:27:31 <lupine_85> it's a bit of a no-brainer
3955 2011-05-21 23:27:48 diki has quit ()
3956 2011-05-21 23:27:50 <luke-jr> and then to translate user to an id, you have to look it up every time
3957 2011-05-21 23:27:56 <luke-jr> before you can insert something using it
3958 2011-05-21 23:28:06 <lupine_85> yes, that's what joins are for
3959 2011-05-21 23:28:25 <lupine_85> there are nigh-on 40 years of solid computer science backing relational algebra. trust me, you want a normalised database
3960 2011-05-21 23:28:48 <Namegduf> Why would you be inserting using a username
3961 2011-05-21 23:28:58 <luke-jr> because that's what pushpool does
3962 2011-05-21 23:29:17 <Namegduf> Heh.
3963 2011-05-21 23:29:28 has joined
3964 2011-05-21 23:29:32 <lupine_85> so fix it :)
3965 2011-05-21 23:29:47 <lupine_85> or, you know, bumble on
3966 2011-05-21 23:30:41 <luke-jr> select id from users where username = ?; (maybe) insert into users (username) values (?); insert into shares (user_id, â¦) values (â¦)
3967 2011-05-21 23:30:52 <luke-jr> vs: insert into shares (username, â¦) values (â¦)
3968 2011-05-21 23:31:03 nathan7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3969 2011-05-21 23:31:31 <lupine_85> nah, you can drop the first select by having a unique constraint on users.username
3970 2011-05-21 23:31:43 <Pilate> is there a known easy pool block for testing a miner?
3971 2011-05-21 23:31:47 <lupine_85> then just check for the insert to fail
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3973 2011-05-21 23:32:10 ForceMajeure has joined
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3975 2011-05-21 23:32:22 nathan7 has joined
3976 2011-05-21 23:32:24 <lupine_85> and assuming any kind of database-backed authentication at you, you'll need to grab the user object from the DB to check the password anyway
3977 2011-05-21 23:32:36 <lupine_85> s/object/row/
3978 2011-05-21 23:32:54 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3979 2011-05-21 23:33:13 <lupine_85> once you have the appropriate user.id, the insert into shares is somewhat cheaper than the insert being done at the moment anyway
3980 2011-05-21 23:33:35 <lupine_85> and the selects - most databases are select-heavy, let's not forget - will be an order of magnitude or more faster
3981 2011-05-21 23:34:11 ben36 has joined
3982 2011-05-21 23:34:46 <lupine_85> of course, if all you're interested in is a count of how many shares a user has contributed, you could get away with an atomic incrementer. I think redis gives you them in-memory for free., I don't think mysql has anything native, though
3983 2011-05-21 23:34:57 <lupine_85> you'd need to lock, update, unlock, which is reasonably expensive
3984 2011-05-21 23:35:08 diki has joined
3985 2011-05-21 23:35:42 <diki> jgarzik: when a round is finished, will share.log and requests.log be truncated? i.e emptied?
3986 2011-05-21 23:37:14 eamon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3987 2011-05-21 23:37:27 eamon has joined
3988 2011-05-21 23:38:35 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
3989 2011-05-21 23:40:53 percymate has joined
3990 2011-05-21 23:40:55 rcsheets has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3991 2011-05-21 23:41:13 <percymate> Hello
3992 2011-05-21 23:41:23 rcsheets has joined
3993 2011-05-21 23:41:48 <percymate> I have a question: I sent BitCoins from my mining rig to my laptop and the transfer isn't showing up in my laptop
3994 2011-05-21 23:42:15 <percymate> The issue, as I imagine it, is that my laptop had 0 connections for a while.
3995 2011-05-21 23:42:19 <diki> did you send to the correct address?
3996 2011-05-21 23:42:29 <percymate> So now it's building up the block chain again
3997 2011-05-21 23:42:39 <percymate> Yes, I definitely sent it to the right address
3998 2011-05-21 23:43:05 <diki> check here for your address
3999 2011-05-21 23:43:06 <diki> http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/
4000 2011-05-21 23:43:15 <diki> if it's there..you have to wait
4001 2011-05-21 23:43:45 <percymate> So, my client doesn't have to be connected to the network to accept transactions?
4002 2011-05-21 23:44:04 <diki> usually no
4003 2011-05-21 23:44:30 DukeOfURL has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
4004 2011-05-21 23:44:51 <Namegduf> I believe the client doesn't have to "accept" transactions
4005 2011-05-21 23:45:06 <Namegduf> You could lock your wallet in a safe and send money to it freely.
4006 2011-05-21 23:45:27 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: correct.
4007 2011-05-21 23:45:55 <gmaxwell> Namegduf: you could print it out and destroy every electronic copy.
4008 2011-05-21 23:46:31 <percymate> So if I wait it should show up eventually
4009 2011-05-21 23:46:39 <tasha3> or you could embed it in a big gold emblem worn around your neck
4010 2011-05-21 23:46:53 <tasha3> with a big "B" on the front
4011 2011-05-21 23:47:18 <Namegduf> tasha3: Classy.
4012 2011-05-21 23:47:28 <percymate> Oh score, it just showed up. Praise be to his cryptographic goodness!
4013 2011-05-21 23:47:43 <gmaxwell> tasha3: yea, have the key material engraved at minute scale into the back of the coin.
4014 2011-05-21 23:47:52 <tasha3> 50.00 matures in 103 more blocks.
4015 2011-05-21 23:48:01 <Namegduf> Nice.
4016 2011-05-21 23:48:05 <Namegduf> You generate that?
4017 2011-05-21 23:48:07 <tasha3> testnet
4018 2011-05-21 23:48:10 <tasha3> fake-nice
4019 2011-05-21 23:48:16 <Namegduf> Ah, I see.
4020 2011-05-21 23:48:21 <gmaxwell> or invent a custom virus that appends your wallet to your DNA in all infected cells.
4021 2011-05-21 23:48:25 <tasha3> slow testnet
4022 2011-05-21 23:48:31 <Namegduf> Is it possible to run a bitcoind constantly and start a bitcoin client connected to it occasionally?
4023 2011-05-21 23:48:36 <diki> can i use testnet to test my pool?
4024 2011-05-21 23:48:42 * Namegduf wants to have mining autostarted, but not always have the GUI open
4025 2011-05-21 23:48:42 <gmaxwell> diki: yep.
4026 2011-05-21 23:48:48 <tasha3> rot13 your wallet, then print it out, frame it, and hang it on your wall
4027 2011-05-21 23:48:52 <gmaxwell> diki: startup a bitcoind on testnet...
4028 2011-05-21 23:48:53 <diki> how fast does one gen a block there?
4029 2011-05-21 23:49:02 <tasha3> diki: probably yes
4030 2011-05-21 23:49:07 karnac has joined
4031 2011-05-21 23:49:42 mtrlt has joined
4032 2011-05-21 23:49:50 <gmaxwell> diki: it's like difficulty 12 there..
4033 2011-05-21 23:49:50 <tasha3> too me 4 hours of mining at 1Mhs on testnet to hit
4034 2011-05-21 23:50:10 <gmaxwell> so about 120 seconds on a random fast gpu.
4035 2011-05-21 23:50:14 <tasha3> yup
4036 2011-05-21 23:50:26 <tasha3> and you'll help my test coins mature
4037 2011-05-21 23:50:50 <gmaxwell> send your test coins to the testnet faucet when you're done.
4038 2011-05-21 23:51:11 <tasha3> i sent a few already
4039 2011-05-21 23:51:58 <gmaxwell> (a fat faucet on the testnet will discourage people from mining there unless they need to for testing, keeping the difficulty low)
4040 2011-05-21 23:52:35 <tasha3> at 0.11 btc a drip
4041 2011-05-21 23:52:50 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@76.252.20.24|Netsniper
4042 2011-05-21 23:53:15 skeledrew has joined
4043 2011-05-21 23:53:36 <diki> oh noez...downloading blocks...again
4044 2011-05-21 23:53:40 <diki> this sucks...
4045 2011-05-21 23:54:06 <diki> how many are there on testnet?
4046 2011-05-21 23:54:09 <gmaxwell> testnet should syncup fast.
4047 2011-05-21 23:54:23 <gmaxwell> 19718, and they're all tiny.
4048 2011-05-21 23:54:39 <gmaxwell> plus testnet has fewer busted hosts
4049 2011-05-21 23:55:18 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4050 2011-05-21 23:55:32 <gmaxwell> I think the reason syncup is so slow now on the main net is because you'll get 7 neighbors which are either newbie nodes or on saturated residential broadband.
4051 2011-05-21 23:55:39 <diki> syncing...
4052 2011-05-21 23:55:57 <diki> 5k left
4053 2011-05-21 23:56:07 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: aye, that's why i start my local client with -connect=<vpn ip of my node on 100mbit pipe>
4054 2011-05-21 23:56:08 <tasha3> 19718
4055 2011-05-21 23:56:33 <tasha3> here comes the hash
4056 2011-05-21 23:56:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: if i don't start it that way and i'm behind more than a couple blocks it takes forever
4057 2011-05-21 23:57:18 <jrmithdobbs> also, some of the testnet nodes don't know how to send the block chain so you may have to connect a couple times to get one that can
4058 2011-05-21 23:57:21 <jrmithdobbs> heh
4059 2011-05-21 23:57:26 kevin`` has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me)
4060 2011-05-21 23:58:13 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: pong, though I bet you're gone...anyway 0.3.22 rc3 is being built, but I was having problems earlier...lets see how it goes this time...
4061 2011-05-21 23:59:09 ben36 has left ()