1 2011-05-28 00:00:39 has joined
2 2011-05-28 00:00:47 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: i have a commit that would protect you from bluematt's maliciousness re: bitcoind running as root, have to talk to jgarzik to get it merged though ;P
3 2011-05-28 00:01:00 <gjs278> oh yeah
4 2011-05-28 00:01:03 <gjs278> what does it do
5 2011-05-28 00:01:06 karnac has joined
6 2011-05-28 00:01:21 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: pull request?
7 2011-05-28 00:01:36 <BlueMatt> you mean the drop caps thing?
8 2011-05-28 00:01:48 <sipa> ah, right, that would indeed limit the impact
9 2011-05-28 00:02:18 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #4: STILL FAILING in 30 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/4/
10 2011-05-28 00:02:40 <jrmithdobbs> adds linux capabilities bound set support and clears the bounding set and sets SECBIT_NO_SUID_FIXUP and SECBIT_NOROOT and their _LOCKED versions so root has no special meaning and privs can never be escalated in the process
11 2011-05-28 00:02:45 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: ya that one
12 2011-05-28 00:02:46 <BlueMatt> arg...
13 2011-05-28 00:02:58 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14 2011-05-28 00:03:14 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: pull 202 if interested
15 2011-05-28 00:03:15 sethsethseth____ has joined
16 2011-05-28 00:03:16 <sipa> i don't know enough about that matter to comment about it
17 2011-05-28 00:03:17 <gjs278> ok
18 2011-05-28 00:04:33 Netsniper has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
19 2011-05-28 00:05:34 <BlueMatt> frankly, Id like to see a warning when running bitcoin as root, as most other apps do, instead of trying to protect stupid users from themselves
20 2011-05-28 00:05:45 <gjs278> ugh
21 2011-05-28 00:05:50 <gjs278> well
22 2011-05-28 00:05:52 <gjs278> warnings are fine
23 2011-05-28 00:05:54 <gjs278> but don't be vlc
24 2011-05-28 00:05:58 <gjs278> vlc used to block all root running
25 2011-05-28 00:06:01 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: that does more than protect stupid users for themselves
26 2011-05-28 00:06:06 <jrmithdobbs> s/for/from/
27 2011-05-28 00:06:07 <BlueMatt> gjs278: as they should
28 2011-05-28 00:06:10 <gjs278> no
29 2011-05-28 00:06:12 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: a lot more.
30 2011-05-28 00:06:14 <gjs278> nobody should block anything
31 2011-05-28 00:06:16 <gjs278> warn sure
32 2011-05-28 00:06:19 <gjs278> but block is bad
33 2011-05-28 00:06:33 <luke-jr> edit the code
34 2011-05-28 00:06:34 <luke-jr> baby
35 2011-05-28 00:06:35 <gjs278> I did
36 2011-05-28 00:06:36 <BlueMatt> gjs278: give me one valid reason why vlc should be run as root?
37 2011-05-28 00:06:37 <sipa> jrmithdobbs: after autotools is merged, i think your patch (if it does what it claims it does) can be merged as a compile-time optional feature
38 2011-05-28 00:06:44 <gjs278> I also got a use flag added to gentoo for it luke-jr
39 2011-05-28 00:06:48 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs / sipa / BlueMatt: if (root) exit(1)
40 2011-05-28 00:06:50 <Namegduf> Unless VLC has server functionality, running it as root doesn't do... anything.
41 2011-05-28 00:06:53 <gjs278> because thats the user I run as
42 2011-05-28 00:07:06 <BlueMatt> gjs278: thats the opposite of a good reason
43 2011-05-28 00:07:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: too lazy to chown DVD drive
44 2011-05-28 00:07:09 <gjs278> so when I type vlc I would like for the window to appear
45 2011-05-28 00:07:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: totally agree
46 2011-05-28 00:07:15 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: the patch as is is turned off by default and requires USE_POSIX_CAPABILITIES to be set at build time
47 2011-05-28 00:07:22 <BlueMatt> luke-jr: lazy != reason
48 2011-05-28 00:07:25 <gjs278> yes it is
49 2011-05-28 00:07:32 <luke-jr> jgarzik: is there a reason pushpoold rewrites difficulty to <1 ?
50 2011-05-28 00:07:33 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
51 2011-05-28 00:07:33 <gjs278> half of the options on computers are due to laziness
52 2011-05-28 00:07:43 <Namegduf> Your DVD drive should not need chowning on a properly configured Linux distribution
53 2011-05-28 00:08:01 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: eh, that patch is much more effective than that and has more useful side effects than preventing people from running it with privs
54 2011-05-28 00:08:01 <BlueMatt> nor should anyone be using root for anything but admin tasks
55 2011-05-28 00:08:04 <luke-jr> Namegduf: I agree, but I also think the owner should be the boss, not the distribution
56 2011-05-28 00:08:17 <Namegduf> luke-jr: The owner is always the boss.
57 2011-05-28 00:08:24 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: Im in favor of a compile-time flag
58 2011-05-28 00:08:32 <Namegduf> I think software which doesn't run as a server warning on root is kinda stupid
59 2011-05-28 00:09:02 <Namegduf> Because it isn't opening up the potential security vulnerabilities (being compromised provides remote root instead of remote limited user) that servers do.
60 2011-05-28 00:09:15 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: especially if the binary is just "setcap cap_setpcap+eip bitcoind;" and never actually run as root (which is it's real intended use)
61 2011-05-28 00:09:20 <Namegduf> Bitcoin I don't care about. If it's compromised you have *far bigger problems*.
62 2011-05-28 00:09:20 <luke-jr> Namegduf: yes it is
63 2011-05-28 00:09:32 <gjs278> everything I do I consider an admin task
64 2011-05-28 00:09:47 <Namegduf> luke-jr: If it doesn't receive non-user-initiated connections with remote, no, it doesn't.
65 2011-05-28 00:10:03 <luke-jr> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff00000000
66 2011-05-28 00:10:19 <luke-jr> Namegduf: until I make a MP4 video with an exploit in it
67 2011-05-28 00:10:28 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
68 2011-05-28 00:10:33 <Namegduf> luke-jr: A different level of exploit.
69 2011-05-28 00:10:39 <gjs278> besides, they let the windows users run their vlc as "root"
70 2011-05-28 00:10:40 DrewSJ has quit (Quit: Always try to be modest, and be proud about it!)
71 2011-05-28 00:10:40 <Namegduf> Not part of what "remote root" means.
72 2011-05-28 00:10:41 <gjs278> just not me
73 2011-05-28 00:10:44 theorbtwo has joined
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75 2011-05-28 00:11:32 <Namegduf> Things which need you to convince a user to do some action and things which can be done without user intervention are usually key defining criteria for a position on a measure of severity.
76 2011-05-28 00:11:33 <luke-jr> Namegduf: unless my exploit connects to my botnet
77 2011-05-28 00:11:38 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: problem with your line of thinking is that any code execution exploit can lead to privilege escalation due to other issues on the system outside of the control of the particular app developer
78 2011-05-28 00:11:38 <Namegduf> luke-jr: No, still then not.
79 2011-05-28 00:11:52 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: That's not a problem with my line of thinking.
80 2011-05-28 00:12:07 <Namegduf> No direct connection to anything I said.
81 2011-05-28 00:12:35 <Namegduf> If you want to go on from what you said to then say "So any user exploit is equivalent in severity to a root exploit"
82 2011-05-28 00:12:41 <Namegduf> THEN that would contradict what I said.
83 2011-05-28 00:12:43 <sipa> isn't root or some other special privilege required to properly do memory locking under linux anyway?
84 2011-05-28 00:12:45 <Namegduf> If you don't, it doesn't.
85 2011-05-28 00:12:45 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: see the linux kernel's multiple historic /proc escalation attack vectors, and the strace (forget the syscall names) implementation
86 2011-05-28 00:12:46 <luke-jr> jgarzik: pushpoold does diff 0x00000000ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff / 0x00000000FFFF0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
87 2011-05-28 00:12:54 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: See the sky
88 2011-05-28 00:12:57 <Namegduf> It looks pretty
89 2011-05-28 00:12:58 <Namegduf> Etc
90 2011-05-28 00:13:13 <Namegduf> It's all black here
91 2011-05-28 00:13:31 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: any code execution exploit leaves a system open to privelege escalation and should be treated just as severely whether the software is intended to run as root or not.
92 2011-05-28 00:13:58 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: Opinion noted. Typically, security vulnerability severity metrics do not agree.
93 2011-05-28 00:14:04 <Namegduf> And neither do I.
94 2011-05-28 00:14:15 <Namegduf> But you're welcome to your opinion.
95 2011-05-28 00:14:30 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: whose? microsoft's?
96 2011-05-28 00:14:36 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: Secunia
97 2011-05-28 00:14:53 <jrmithdobbs> same diff
98 2011-05-28 00:14:58 <Namegduf> "lol"
99 2011-05-28 00:15:06 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
100 2011-05-28 00:15:45 <Namegduf> My point is that typically "remote root" is distinct from "limited user exploit" and both are distinct from the same "given tricking the user into doing something"
101 2011-05-28 00:15:53 <Namegduf> In considering exploits
102 2011-05-28 00:15:55 nzbtc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
103 2011-05-28 00:16:01 DontMindMe has joined
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105 2011-05-28 00:16:14 <Namegduf> And it's perfectly sensible for servers to tell people off for turning the second into the first, IMO, and those that do it seem to agree
106 2011-05-28 00:16:23 nzbtc has joined
107 2011-05-28 00:16:30 <gjs278> thats fine for it to tell me off
108 2011-05-28 00:16:34 <gjs278> but it shouldnt stop me
109 2011-05-28 00:16:36 <Namegduf> But when the last is involved you've already got a major burden to overcome and they can't count on it running as root, so...
110 2011-05-28 00:16:39 <gjs278> it's a computer, it will do whatever I want
111 2011-05-28 00:16:41 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: by your logic there's not been a severe security issue on common posix software for 10 years assuming you actually follow best practices
112 2011-05-28 00:16:44 <jrmithdobbs> but ok
113 2011-05-28 00:16:59 <jrmithdobbs> which is just not true
114 2011-05-28 00:17:10 <Namegduf> "but ok", followed by "which is just not true"?
115 2011-05-28 00:17:13 <Namegduf> Heh.
116 2011-05-28 00:17:21 <gjs278> if anything I'll jail my bitcoind
117 2011-05-28 00:17:26 bitcoinbulletin has joined
118 2011-05-28 00:17:27 <gjs278> before I run as a user account
119 2011-05-28 00:17:32 <gjs278> I'd be getting more security that way anyways
120 2011-05-28 00:17:32 Xenland has joined
121 2011-05-28 00:17:34 <peterpansen__> BlueMatt, thanks for your jenkins server. I just downloaded the latest build and it works fine on ubuntu 11.04
122 2011-05-28 00:17:40 <Namegduf> There's not been many of the highest possible level of severity
123 2011-05-28 00:17:43 <Namegduf> "remote root"
124 2011-05-28 00:17:51 <Namegduf> On many distros in a default config
125 2011-05-28 00:17:55 <Namegduf> But they happen.
126 2011-05-28 00:18:01 <dfc_> wow are you guys really arguing that vlc shouldnt be run as root?
127 2011-05-28 00:18:08 <gjs278> yes
128 2011-05-28 00:18:13 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: apparently
129 2011-05-28 00:18:13 <Namegduf> I'm saying VLC forbidding running as root is silly
130 2011-05-28 00:18:18 <Namegduf> Because it isn't a damn server
131 2011-05-28 00:18:21 <gjs278> they added a compile time flag for it so it can run as root now
132 2011-05-28 00:18:23 <Namegduf> But it makes sense for servers
133 2011-05-28 00:18:33 GarrettB has left ()
134 2011-05-28 00:18:33 <gjs278> apache also has a compile time flag to run as root but I don't use it
135 2011-05-28 00:18:38 <gjs278> apache just runs as www or whatever
136 2011-05-28 00:18:39 <dfc_> is there really anyreason it should be run as root?
137 2011-05-28 00:18:44 <gjs278> my X is root
138 2011-05-28 00:18:47 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: of course not
139 2011-05-28 00:18:51 <Namegduf> dfc_: Silly people running as root all the time
140 2011-05-28 00:18:55 <Namegduf> That's about it.
141 2011-05-28 00:18:59 <dfc_> apache atleast binds to <80
142 2011-05-28 00:18:59 <Namegduf> Because su/sudo is hard
143 2011-05-28 00:19:03 <Xenland> Any open source licenses that reserves the right to resell?
144 2011-05-28 00:19:09 <Namegduf> "all of them"
145 2011-05-28 00:19:15 <gjs278> you can't su in a gui
146 2011-05-28 00:19:17 <Namegduf> You just will have trouble making money.
147 2011-05-28 00:19:18 <jrmithdobbs> Xenland: mit/x11 and bsd
148 2011-05-28 00:19:18 <BlueMatt> peterpansen__: please dont download from that for the hell of it, there are nightlies and the 0.3.22 rc branches which have ample bw, whereas jenkins is on my home dsl...
149 2011-05-28 00:19:27 <jrmithdobbs> Xenland: gpl2 kind of so long as you provide source
150 2011-05-28 00:19:31 <Namegduf> dfc_: Apache will bind to 80, then drop privs.
151 2011-05-28 00:19:38 <BlueMatt> also, the 0.3.22 rcs are as up-to-date as jenkins atm
152 2011-05-28 00:19:39 <Namegduf> Generally.
153 2011-05-28 00:19:45 <Namegduf> It binds to ports then drops privs.
154 2011-05-28 00:19:47 <Namegduf> Works nicely.
155 2011-05-28 00:19:51 <jrmithdobbs> Xenland: gpl3 is a clusterfuck and i'm not sure on it but would recomend not using it for other reasons
156 2011-05-28 00:20:09 <dfc_> Namegduf: i know. i was just saying that atleast there is a plausible need for privs with apache.
157 2011-05-28 00:20:13 <Xenland> I was thinking about use MIT but it says this: including without limitation the rights
158 2011-05-28 00:20:14 <Xenland> to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
159 2011-05-28 00:20:14 <Xenland> copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
160 2011-05-28 00:20:25 <Namegduf> Xenland: That's what they're offering you.
161 2011-05-28 00:20:34 <jrmithdobbs> Xenland: which is the wording that allows what you want?!
162 2011-05-28 00:20:34 <gjs278> I bsd everything I write
163 2011-05-28 00:20:36 <Xenland> it says anybody can resell the modified works
164 2011-05-28 00:20:38 <Namegduf> It doesn't mandate what you offer to other people using it.
165 2011-05-28 00:20:49 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: old-school copyright clause gpl-incompat bsd i hope
166 2011-05-28 00:21:04 <gjs278> lol
167 2011-05-28 00:21:06 <Namegduf> Xenland: No, it doens't.
168 2011-05-28 00:21:07 <dfc_> codecs are awful. its likehaving 30 early 2000 copirs of bind/sendmail running atonce
169 2011-05-28 00:21:11 <Xenland> including with out limitation the rights to use, copy.... and/or sell copies
170 2011-05-28 00:21:13 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: if so, hi5
171 2011-05-28 00:21:15 <Namegduf> Xenland: It says the person accepting the licence, i.e. you, can.
172 2011-05-28 00:21:21 <gjs278> yeah it is
173 2011-05-28 00:21:22 <gjs278> \o
174 2011-05-28 00:21:28 <Namegduf> Xenland: It does not say you need to offer that licence to everyone you distribute it on to.
175 2011-05-28 00:21:29 <jrmithdobbs> gjs278: hi5!
176 2011-05-28 00:21:39 <Namegduf> Xenland: That is the big difference between it and the GPL, which DOES say that.
177 2011-05-28 00:21:42 <gjs278> they can't handle the freedom
178 2011-05-28 00:21:51 <jrmithdobbs> just put it all in the public domain
179 2011-05-28 00:21:56 <jrmithdobbs> now that's real freedom.
180 2011-05-28 00:22:04 <Namegduf> So wait
181 2011-05-28 00:22:09 <Xenland> okay so MIT says modifed codes can be resold but GPL says that modified codes can't be resold; is that correct?
182 2011-05-28 00:22:16 <Namegduf> No, it isn't.
183 2011-05-28 00:22:18 <jrmithdobbs> no
184 2011-05-28 00:22:21 <gjs278> some guy at work would mark all of his scripts as being licensed under bsd
185 2011-05-28 00:22:34 <jrmithdobbs> mit/x11/bsd says modified code can be resold and you don't have to provide source upon sale
186 2011-05-28 00:22:35 <gjs278> it was pretty funny considering they'd obviously never leave the company
187 2011-05-28 00:22:53 <Namegduf> You can ALWAYS sell something you have, in general.
188 2011-05-28 00:22:55 <jrmithdobbs> gpl2 says modified code can be sold for a reasonable distribution-cost-covering ammount and source must be provide
189 2011-05-28 00:22:58 <jrmithdobbs> d
190 2011-05-28 00:23:02 traviscj has joined
191 2011-05-28 00:23:02 <Namegduf> jrmithdobbs: WRong
192 2011-05-28 00:23:07 <dfc_> andit was probs a work for hire and he had no right to chose license
193 2011-05-28 00:23:10 <Namegduf> You can sell GPL2 stuff for whatever price you like.
194 2011-05-28 00:23:13 <gjs278> yeah exactly
195 2011-05-28 00:23:18 <jrmithdobbs> gpl3 says rms thinks he's better than you and knows what you should really do with your IP rights
196 2011-05-28 00:23:20 <Namegduf> It's just if you provide the source separate, THEN you have to distribute it for reasonable cost.
197 2011-05-28 00:23:21 <jrmithdobbs> gpl3 is evil
198 2011-05-28 00:23:30 skeledrew has joined
199 2011-05-28 00:23:30 <Namegduf> And just the source.
200 2011-05-28 00:23:34 <sipa> gpl simply says that you must distribute the source if you distribute a (modified) binary
201 2011-05-28 00:23:36 lumos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
202 2011-05-28 00:23:41 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: oh that's right, just the source must be provided at reasonable distribution cost
203 2011-05-28 00:23:44 <jrmithdobbs> my bad
204 2011-05-28 00:23:47 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: don't spread FUD
205 2011-05-28 00:23:52 broker has quit (Quit: zisch)
206 2011-05-28 00:23:54 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i'm not.
207 2011-05-28 00:24:06 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i misremembered part of gpl2 is all
208 2011-05-28 00:24:08 <Xenland> Okay so all of opensource license says that if your the licensee and you modify the code you "CANT" sell the modified code?
209 2011-05-28 00:24:11 * dfc_ thinks ad hominem attacks on st. stallman are lame, ungrateful and childish
210 2011-05-28 00:24:20 <sipa> Xenland: no
211 2011-05-28 00:24:21 <Namegduf> Xenland: Um, no?
212 2011-05-28 00:24:22 <luke-jr> Xenland: no
213 2011-05-28 00:24:24 <Xenland> Thats what i was asking
214 2011-05-28 00:24:25 <luke-jr> Xenland: none of them do
215 2011-05-28 00:24:25 <Namegduf> MIT/X11/BSD let you derive and sell derivative works. GPL does too- but GPL forces you to put your resulting work under the GPL.
216 2011-05-28 00:24:36 <sipa> Xenland: you can sell all you want, you just need to provide the source
217 2011-05-28 00:24:37 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: wasn't an ad hominem on rms, was an ad hominem on gpl3
218 2011-05-28 00:24:47 <gjs278> if you buy a gpl app you're doing it wrong
219 2011-05-28 00:24:49 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: it was GPL3 FUD
220 2011-05-28 00:24:49 <Xenland> Is there an open source lisense that says if you modify the code you can't resell it only the owner has the right to sell it
221 2011-05-28 00:24:56 <dfc_> "rms thinks he is better than you"
222 2011-05-28 00:24:56 <jrmithdobbs> and gpl3 is retarded and i stand by that statement
223 2011-05-28 00:25:01 <Namegduf> Probably. Not one of the major ones, though.
224 2011-05-28 00:25:04 <luke-jr> Xenland: by definition, that is non-free
225 2011-05-28 00:25:07 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
226 2011-05-28 00:25:11 <Namegduf> Maybe look at a CC licence
227 2011-05-28 00:25:13 <dfc_> ianal
228 2011-05-28 00:25:15 <Namegduf> CC-NC
229 2011-05-28 00:25:16 <Namegduf> Or some such
230 2011-05-28 00:25:16 <peterpansen__> BlueMatt, thanks for the advise... So dont use that bin?
231 2011-05-28 00:25:30 <gjs278> it could mess with your .bitcoin
232 2011-05-28 00:25:31 * Namegduf wouldn't use a BSD/MIT like, but only because he'd just use CC0 instead
233 2011-05-28 00:25:33 <gjs278> which could be bad
234 2011-05-28 00:25:44 <Xenland> It's free if i give away the code for others to distribute and change freely except for selling the code
235 2011-05-28 00:25:45 <BlueMatt> peterpansen__: I prefer you dont dl from there, no reason and dont waste my bw
236 2011-05-28 00:25:51 <luke-jr> Xenland: no, it isn't.
237 2011-05-28 00:25:57 <BlueMatt> you can always grab a copy of that uploaded nightly at bitcoin.bluematt.me
238 2011-05-28 00:25:59 <luke-jr> Xenland: that's just free of charge, which is unimportant
239 2011-05-28 00:26:02 karnac has joined
240 2011-05-28 00:26:14 <luke-jr> or gratis, if you want a single word
241 2011-05-28 00:26:18 <BlueMatt> (currently, those copies are built from the same as 0.3.22, so just grab that rc)
242 2011-05-28 00:26:19 <Namegduf> Xenland: Free refers to the ability to use the work as they wish, not to pricing.
243 2011-05-28 00:26:27 <Namegduf> Xenland: It would be "open source" but not free.
244 2011-05-28 00:26:37 <Namegduf> If you want such, I can't name a standard licence that includes it which is typical
245 2011-05-28 00:26:44 <Namegduf> But you can readily write one.
246 2011-05-28 00:26:46 <luke-jr> Xenland: "free" means you have the right to modify, distribute, etc it as you please
247 2011-05-28 00:26:49 <Namegduf> Simple Machine Forums, for example, do.
248 2011-05-28 00:26:51 <luke-jr> Xenland: including the right to sell it
249 2011-05-28 00:27:06 <Namegduf> The ability to sell and ability to distribute are not distinct in law.
250 2011-05-28 00:27:07 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: and by that definition gpl3 is not free
251 2011-05-28 00:27:08 <Xenland> I want to be able to sell my software but also distribute it with out people taking my cut "per-se"
252 2011-05-28 00:27:10 <jrmithdobbs> (and neither is gpl2)
253 2011-05-28 00:27:12 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: yes it is
254 2011-05-28 00:27:22 Netsniper has joined
255 2011-05-28 00:27:28 <Xenland> or is that frowned upon
256 2011-05-28 00:27:29 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: nope. it provides for very clear limitations or use/modification/distribution
257 2011-05-28 00:27:36 <luke-jr> Xenland: that's non-free
258 2011-05-28 00:27:38 <jrmithdobbs> s/or/on/
259 2011-05-28 00:27:41 <luke-jr> Xenland: you get your cut when you sold it
260 2011-05-28 00:27:46 <Namegduf> Xenland: It's your code. You have exclusive copyright to it.
261 2011-05-28 00:27:52 <Namegduf> You can do whatever you like with that copyright
262 2011-05-28 00:27:57 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: nope, neither GPL restrict use/modify at all
263 2011-05-28 00:28:03 <dfc_> limitations on use?
264 2011-05-28 00:28:03 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: yes they do.
265 2011-05-28 00:28:08 <lyarick> has anyone seen gcc garble on the asm in sha.cpp? http://pastebin.com/7Lqbrb4v
266 2011-05-28 00:28:08 <Namegduf> And I will not begrudge it unless you try to go beyond it into limitations on use
267 2011-05-28 00:28:09 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: and they only restrict distribution such that you can't restrict someone else
268 2011-05-28 00:28:12 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: the limitation is that you must keep all modifications gpl
269 2011-05-28 00:28:14 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: that is a limitation.
270 2011-05-28 00:28:16 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: no they dont
271 2011-05-28 00:28:22 <Namegduf> GPL's restriction is that of copyleft.
272 2011-05-28 00:28:25 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: no
273 2011-05-28 00:28:28 <Namegduf> Copyleft is generally held to be "free".
274 2011-05-28 00:28:30 <lyarick> (note: i'm porting to openindiana/solaris)
275 2011-05-28 00:28:33 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: you don't need to keep modifications GPL
276 2011-05-28 00:28:37 <Namegduf> You can argue it doesn't meet a definition of "free" you provide
277 2011-05-28 00:28:38 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: wrong
278 2011-05-28 00:28:40 diki has joined
279 2011-05-28 00:28:45 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: anything that statically links against gpl code must be gpl.
280 2011-05-28 00:28:50 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: only if distributed
281 2011-05-28 00:28:51 <Namegduf> But that doesn't say anything meaningful.
282 2011-05-28 00:28:53 <Namegduf> Actually
283 2011-05-28 00:28:58 <ArtForz> luke-jr: ^
284 2011-05-28 00:29:00 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: and it doesn't matter whether it's static or shared
285 2011-05-28 00:29:00 <diki> ;;bc,eligius
286 2011-05-28 00:29:01 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: for gpl2, yes, not for gpl3
287 2011-05-28 00:29:05 <gribble> 62978537.117
288 2011-05-28 00:29:08 <Namegduf> Hmm.
289 2011-05-28 00:29:13 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: citation needed
290 2011-05-28 00:29:16 <dfc_> onlyif redistributed = the chinese dissiddnt test
291 2011-05-28 00:29:29 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: this is the interpretation given to every company i've worked for that had ip lawyers
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293 2011-05-28 00:29:42 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: citation needed
294 2011-05-28 00:29:57 Teslah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
295 2011-05-28 00:30:00 <Namegduf> Um
296 2011-05-28 00:30:00 Teslah has joined
297 2011-05-28 00:30:04 <Namegduf> I have a feeling that IP lawyers
298 2011-05-28 00:30:07 <dfc_> most IP lawyers find gpl repugnant and are not very knowledgable on it
299 2011-05-28 00:30:12 <Namegduf> Do not give a shit about the meaning of the word "free"
300 2011-05-28 00:30:16 <dfc_> eben mogelin is a genius
301 2011-05-28 00:30:17 <Namegduf> It's not their job
302 2011-05-28 00:30:20 <Namegduf> It's not a legality
303 2011-05-28 00:30:26 stuhood has left ()
304 2011-05-28 00:30:32 <Xenland> How does open-source make money... like how the fook does MySql make any profit or is that just a bunch of hackers that get together and say we need a good DB to use lets do it!
305 2011-05-28 00:30:35 <Namegduf> It's semantics of the English language as used in the OSS movement
306 2011-05-28 00:30:42 <ArtForz> Namegduf: yup
307 2011-05-28 00:30:44 <Namegduf> Xenland: MySQL is dual-licenced and highly profitable
308 2011-05-28 00:30:48 <dfc_> same way IBM/Oracle do
309 2011-05-28 00:30:55 devon_hillard has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
310 2011-05-28 00:31:00 <dfc_> its all about services
311 2011-05-28 00:31:01 <Namegduf> Xenland: It's under the GPL, but they also hold all the copyrights to it
312 2011-05-28 00:31:03 <luke-jr> Xenland: MySQL doesn't make any profit with free software
313 2011-05-28 00:31:06 <ArtForz> wtf does IBM have to do with Oracle?
314 2011-05-28 00:31:08 <Namegduf> Meaning they can also offer it as closed source
315 2011-05-28 00:31:15 <Namegduf> For people for whom the GPL is unacceptable
316 2011-05-28 00:31:17 <luke-jr> Xenland: MySQL makes their profit by selling it non-free
317 2011-05-28 00:31:20 <dfc_> consultation/service
318 2011-05-28 00:31:25 <Namegduf> Also service, yeah.
319 2011-05-28 00:31:34 <Namegduf> The free use is basically major marketing.
320 2011-05-28 00:31:35 <Xenland> Is there anything special about non-free software?
321 2011-05-28 00:31:38 <dfc_> they make the most money on supporting it
322 2011-05-28 00:31:47 <Namegduf> Xenland: As a class? No.
323 2011-05-28 00:31:51 <Namegduf> In the specific way MySQL does it?
324 2011-05-28 00:31:56 <dfc_> it never runs on amd64 linux?
325 2011-05-28 00:32:03 <Namegduf> You're allowed to embed it in your closed source application
326 2011-05-28 00:32:06 <luke-jr> Xenland: non-free software puts you at the whims of the monopoly controlling it
327 2011-05-28 00:32:08 <Namegduf> Without opening the source of your application
328 2011-05-28 00:32:21 <ArtForz> Namegduf: actually they *claim* that
329 2011-05-28 00:32:23 <Namegduf> This in effect lets it be used in commercial software, for money paid to them.
330 2011-05-28 00:32:38 <luke-jr> Namegduf: free software can be commercial; you mean propriteary
331 2011-05-28 00:32:43 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: see the section 'Point of view: linking is irrelevant' re: my gpl3 comment on wikipedia, i'll look for a source for the gpl2 comment if you're really interested (but you are right, with gpl2 it doesn't matter type of linking and only applies if distributed)
332 2011-05-28 00:32:47 peterpansen__ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
333 2011-05-28 00:33:03 <Namegduf> luke-jr: I mean "closed source commercial"
334 2011-05-28 00:33:17 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: it's not a point of view. the difference between "static linking" and "other linking" is purely technical, and has no legal relevance
335 2011-05-28 00:33:24 <Namegduf> So yeah.
336 2011-05-28 00:33:33 <Xenland> okay. so in order for me to use mysql in a production value when including it in my software package, id have to pay to include mysql closed source other wise i'd have to give away my software package available in opensource
337 2011-05-28 00:33:34 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: actually that's not the section of the gpl3 i was referring to, one second
338 2011-05-28 00:33:41 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: thought it quoted a different clause
339 2011-05-28 00:33:42 <Namegduf> Xenland: Bingo.
340 2011-05-28 00:33:45 <ArtForz> luke-jr: for commercial distribution, it does
341 2011-05-28 00:33:45 * dfc_ would like to recommend: ln -s /dev/shm/debug.log ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
342 2011-05-28 00:33:49 <Xenland> It all makes sense now
343 2011-05-28 00:33:49 <luke-jr> Xenland: no
344 2011-05-28 00:33:54 DontMindMe has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
345 2011-05-28 00:33:57 peterpansen has joined
346 2011-05-28 00:33:58 <gjs278> dfc_ why
347 2011-05-28 00:33:59 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
348 2011-05-28 00:34:10 <Namegduf> Xenland: The free version does major marketing, gets everyone using it for free and knowing how to use it.
349 2011-05-28 00:34:14 <luke-jr> Xenland: you couldn't use MySQL in a proprietary application without paying Oracle for a proprietary MySQL license
350 2011-05-28 00:34:17 <dfc_> the debug log os a little verbose to say the least
351 2011-05-28 00:34:20 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
352 2011-05-28 00:34:24 <gjs278> actually
353 2011-05-28 00:34:28 <gjs278> can you turn off debug.log
354 2011-05-28 00:34:28 <dfc_> i dont really care if IRC got join :)
355 2011-05-28 00:34:30 <gjs278> I've never needed it
356 2011-05-28 00:34:31 <luke-jr> Xenland: but you could use MySQL in a production value commercial software package without paying them a dime
357 2011-05-28 00:34:44 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
358 2011-05-28 00:34:49 <luke-jr> Xenland: the point is to discourage people from distributing non-free software
359 2011-05-28 00:34:55 <Namegduf> The non-free licence collects revenue from people then going on to use it in non-free software.
360 2011-05-28 00:35:00 <dfc_> as it is keeping it in memory keeps it around if omething goes wrong
361 2011-05-28 00:35:02 <Namegduf> Because it's what htey know.
362 2011-05-28 00:35:13 <dfc_> and i don't have to have a disk write ever 1/10th of a second
363 2011-05-28 00:35:15 <jrmithdobbs> more like the point is to enforce your political view points on other's IP rights
364 2011-05-28 00:35:18 <jrmithdobbs> but we/e
365 2011-05-28 00:35:35 Titeuf_87 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
366 2011-05-28 00:35:37 <Namegduf> Snerk
367 2011-05-28 00:35:48 <Namegduf> The point of the GPL is to say what the hell I want to do with my copyrights
368 2011-05-28 00:35:58 Netsniper has quit (Quit: Anarchism, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. -Emma Goldman)
369 2011-05-28 00:36:15 <Namegduf> And what I want to do is let you use it free if you do the same kindness. Quid quo pro, no moochers welcome.
370 2011-05-28 00:36:18 <jrmithdobbs> Namegduf: but it also forces others into doing things with their copyrights wish they may prefer not to do (without explicit exception from you)
371 2011-05-28 00:36:27 <jrmithdobbs> and is therefore, by definition less free than bsd/mit/x11/public domain
372 2011-05-28 00:36:31 <ArtForz> jrmithdobbs: boo. hoo.
373 2011-05-28 00:36:34 <Namegduf> Absolutely.
374 2011-05-28 00:36:36 <Namegduf> I don't care.
375 2011-05-28 00:36:36 <dfc_> they chose to accept that limitation by using the GPL software
376 2011-05-28 00:36:40 <dfc_> nothing is forced on the user
377 2011-05-28 00:36:46 <ArtForz> yep
378 2011-05-28 00:36:47 <Namegduf> They want to use my copyrights to make *their* copyrights, they play by my rules
379 2011-05-28 00:36:52 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: they were arguing that that sentiment was not true. that is all i was originally saying.
380 2011-05-28 00:36:56 <ArtForz> better read the license terms before you start modifying someone elses code for your product.
381 2011-05-28 00:37:02 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: whether you care about it or not is a different topic
382 2011-05-28 00:37:03 <dfc_> just like I have to deal with a verbose debug.log;)
383 2011-05-28 00:37:25 <gjs278> there really should be an option to turn it off
384 2011-05-28 00:37:30 <ArtForz> well, if you don't *distribute* the changed version, you don't have to provide source, duh.
385 2011-05-28 00:37:41 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: that is not true in all cases for gpl3
386 2011-05-28 00:38:00 <Namegduf> I think it's true for the GPL3 but no form of the Allegro GPL
387 2011-05-28 00:38:02 <dfc_> i suck at programming so this is a lame gripe but the logging infrastructure sucks in bitcoin
388 2011-05-28 00:38:02 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: there's a clause in gpl3 that states something like if users have access to services derived from the code it must be distributed
389 2011-05-28 00:38:05 <jrmithdobbs> gpl3 is fucking evil
390 2011-05-28 00:38:09 <Namegduf> That's not the GPLv4
391 2011-05-28 00:38:10 <Namegduf> *v3
392 2011-05-28 00:38:13 <ArtForz> who cares about gpl3 insanity?
393 2011-05-28 00:38:15 <Namegduf> That's the allegro GPL
394 2011-05-28 00:38:19 <Namegduf> AGPL
395 2011-05-28 00:38:23 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: luke-jr apparently
396 2011-05-28 00:38:28 Blitzboom_ has joined
397 2011-05-28 00:38:54 <Namegduf> I'm actually not so happy with that, because it attempts to restrict usage.
398 2011-05-28 00:39:04 <Namegduf> Or require behaviour to be done based on usage, which is the same thing.
399 2011-05-28 00:39:05 <jrmithdobbs> oh you're right
400 2011-05-28 00:39:08 <jrmithdobbs> there's 2 versions of gpl3
401 2011-05-28 00:39:15 <jrmithdobbs> jesus that shit got retarded
402 2011-05-28 00:39:31 <Namegduf> I think there was a v2 AGPL, but I might have dreamt it.
403 2011-05-28 00:39:37 <Namegduf> Like the LGPL has multiple versions too.
404 2011-05-28 00:39:39 <jrmithdobbs> gpl3 is just the patent stealing one that requires you to claim that it doesn't violate anyone's patent which is ludicrous to expect of developers
405 2011-05-28 00:39:50 <Namegduf> I don't think so.
406 2011-05-28 00:39:51 <ArtForz> yep, gpl3 is nuts
407 2011-05-28 00:39:59 <jrmithdobbs> you could purger yourself based on patents you just don't know exist
408 2011-05-28 00:40:09 <jrmithdobbs> it's awesome and you should beware.
409 2011-05-28 00:40:11 <Namegduf> GPLv3 suffers from trying to solve a non-copyright problem
410 2011-05-28 00:40:17 <Namegduf> In a copyright licence
411 2011-05-28 00:40:19 <jrmithdobbs> right
412 2011-05-28 00:40:22 <ArtForz> yep
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414 2011-05-28 00:40:36 <jrmithdobbs> i respect the attempt to solve it but it's the wrong forum to do so.
415 2011-05-28 00:40:39 <Namegduf> I sympathise with the problem but don't prefer it myself.
416 2011-05-28 00:40:54 <jrmithdobbs> (and I really don't hate gpl2 that much, i just wont ever license anything under it myself)
417 2011-05-28 00:41:31 <Namegduf> I'm pro-copyright in this context, which isn't shared by true FOSS fanatics.
418 2011-05-28 00:41:37 <ArtForz> dunno, I kinda like gpl2
419 2011-05-28 00:41:59 <Namegduf> That is, "it's the right of the software dev to attach restrictions to how you can derive from HIS work", rather than "all work should be free!".
420 2011-05-28 00:42:10 <ArtForz> yep
421 2011-05-28 00:42:13 <luke-jr> [20:31:03] <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: there's a clause in gpl3 that states something like if users have access to services derived from the code it must be distributed
422 2011-05-28 00:42:16 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: nope, that's AGPL
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424 2011-05-28 00:42:53 <luke-jr> GPL3 mainly changes 2 things:
425 2011-05-28 00:43:03 <Diablo-D3> no
426 2011-05-28 00:43:04 <dfc_> Namegduf: true foss fanatics love copyrights
427 2011-05-28 00:43:05 <Diablo-D3> thats AGPL3
428 2011-05-28 00:43:14 <Diablo-D3> normal GPL3 doesnt have the network clause
429 2011-05-28 00:43:21 <luke-jr> 1. it allows you to sign binaries without counting the private key as source code, so long as that signature is not required to use it
430 2011-05-28 00:43:22 <dfc_> without it there is no way to protect the freedom
431 2011-05-28 00:43:47 <luke-jr> 2. it basically extends the existing terms to cover patents where software patents are legal (nowhere?)
432 2011-05-28 00:44:12 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: you mean "in the US only"
433 2011-05-28 00:44:19 <Diablo-D3> nowhere else is really that fucked up
434 2011-05-28 00:44:20 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: show me the law making it legal in the US
435 2011-05-28 00:44:26 <dfc_> luke-jr: thats a radical interpretation of the bilski decision
436 2011-05-28 00:44:27 <Diablo-D3> what, software patents?
437 2011-05-28 00:44:34 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: US law, AFAIK, says you can't patent algorithms
438 2011-05-28 00:44:40 <luke-jr> all software is algorithm
439 2011-05-28 00:44:45 <Diablo-D3> they're legal because the uspto gave the patent.
440 2011-05-28 00:44:50 <Namegduf> I'm going with, "there are lawsuits over software patents, so whether they should exist or not..."
441 2011-05-28 00:44:57 <dfc_> not all software. stuff written in haskell yes
442 2011-05-28 00:44:59 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: and no, software patents fall in two categories
443 2011-05-28 00:45:01 <Diablo-D3> math, and lies
444 2011-05-28 00:45:01 <luke-jr> Diablo-D3: patent office doesn't make the law
445 2011-05-28 00:45:09 <Diablo-D3> luke-jr: they do when no one stops them
446 2011-05-28 00:45:12 <Diablo-D3> but Im not having this argument
447 2011-05-28 00:45:19 <Diablo-D3> the patent grant clause in GPL3 works
448 2011-05-28 00:45:20 <Diablo-D3> so stfu
449 2011-05-28 00:45:30 <ArtForz> yes, it works to make people not use it.
450 2011-05-28 00:45:42 <Diablo-D3> no, it works to make people be unable to use them as weapons
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455 2011-05-28 00:48:34 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: good job reading the whole conversation, i self corrected like 3 lines later
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459 2011-05-28 00:51:06 <jrmithdobbs> also gpl2 is great so long as someone sane is the wrangler of code submission and enforces code submissions to have sane gpl-related expectations (aka, linus with linux)
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463 2011-05-28 00:55:00 * diki doesnt care for any gpl,mpl or whatever the hell that ends with L..
464 2011-05-28 00:55:11 * diki uses whatever he wants, whenever he wants
465 2011-05-28 00:55:17 <diki> and however i want
466 2011-05-28 00:56:14 <jrmithdobbs> noone wants your cut and paste code anyways, don't worry
467 2011-05-28 00:56:22 <midnightmagic> :-D
468 2011-05-28 00:56:48 <diki> No one wants you jrmith
469 2011-05-28 00:57:09 <dfc_> what is this i read about running a second miner at a lower priority?
470 2011-05-28 00:57:15 <dfc_> does that mean renice it?
471 2011-05-28 00:57:21 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: yeah, Linus does such a good job NOT ENFORCING THE LICENSE
472 2011-05-28 00:57:22 <jrmithdobbs> bs is what it is
473 2011-05-28 00:57:23 gjs278 has joined
474 2011-05-28 00:57:37 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: of making sane exceptions to it. yes. exactly my point.
475 2011-05-28 00:57:38 <dfc_> i did not realize nice values would apply to GPU computations
476 2011-05-28 00:57:39 <diki> Linus as in Linus from NCIX?
477 2011-05-28 00:57:46 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: they don't
478 2011-05-28 00:57:48 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: he doesn't have the right to make exceptions
479 2011-05-28 00:58:17 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: submitters have implicit knowledge of his view of the license and are free to fork and/or not contribute if they disagree.
480 2011-05-28 00:58:20 <jrmithdobbs> i see nothing wrong with this.
481 2011-05-28 00:58:36 fimp has joined
482 2011-05-28 00:58:39 <jrmithdobbs> imho linux is the perfect example of the gpl being used correctly.
483 2011-05-28 00:58:46 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: the point is his view is irrelevant
484 2011-05-28 00:58:47 <jrmithdobbs> and realistically.
485 2011-05-28 00:59:16 <luke-jr> worst*
486 2011-05-28 00:59:18 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: so sue amd/nvidia already
487 2011-05-28 00:59:24 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: I don't have the authority to.
488 2011-05-28 00:59:35 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: then your opinion matters even less.
489 2011-05-28 00:59:36 <luke-jr> the only patch I have in Linux is too trivial for a copyright
490 2011-05-28 00:59:40 <dfc_> so can you run a second gpu miner at a lower priority?
491 2011-05-28 00:59:57 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: that's bs rumor from people that don't understand the system
492 2011-05-28 01:00:12 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: you may get displays saying you're genning more hash/s but they're just that, display errors
493 2011-05-28 01:00:13 <dfc_> gthx
494 2011-05-28 01:00:26 <luke-jr> dfc_: yes
495 2011-05-28 01:00:42 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: you CAN do it, but the prio does not affect scheduling on the gpu.
496 2011-05-28 01:01:07 <dfc_> i just read a thread about having the second miner in case the pool server for the first (primaruy) miner is unavail
497 2011-05-28 01:01:33 <dfc_> can you affect scheduling on the GPU? aka gpunice -20 /second_miner?
498 2011-05-28 01:01:33 <jrmithdobbs> that's an awful way of dealing with that problem but it would work
499 2011-05-28 01:01:41 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: not afaik
500 2011-05-28 01:02:04 <jrmithdobbs> dfc_: the gpu code execution isn't handled by the kernel per se but the fglrx/nv kernel drivers and afaik they don't look at prio
501 2011-05-28 01:03:25 <ArtForz> sounds like a very hackish way to avoid running a mining proxy w/ autofailover
502 2011-05-28 01:03:35 <jrmithdobbs> exactly
503 2011-05-28 01:03:57 <dfc_> an you recommend a mining proxy?
504 2011-05-28 01:04:06 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: too bad the only open implementation of such a thing is gpl3 and therefore inherently evil
505 2011-05-28 01:04:12 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
506 2011-05-28 01:04:21 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #5: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 0 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/5/
507 2011-05-28 01:04:25 <dfc_> i <3 gpl. where is it?
508 2011-05-28 01:04:40 <jrmithdobbs> i forget it's crap php code too
509 2011-05-28 01:04:46 <ArtForz> ugh
510 2011-05-28 01:04:51 <ArtForz> at least do it with crap python code
511 2011-05-28 01:04:58 <jgarzik> heh
512 2011-05-28 01:05:07 <jrmithdobbs> ArtForz: not only is it crap php code, it's crap php code that must be run through mod_php in apache
513 2011-05-28 01:05:10 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
514 2011-05-28 01:05:15 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
515 2011-05-28 01:05:23 <ArtForz> jeesh
516 2011-05-28 01:05:34 <jgarzik> luke-jr: ?
517 2011-05-28 01:05:40 DukeOfURL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
518 2011-05-28 01:05:43 <jrmithdobbs> that's about as much detail as i have because i read the readme then the license then closed it quickly to avoid polluting any future IP i may create
519 2011-05-28 01:05:46 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
520 2011-05-28 01:05:51 <luke-jr> jgarzik: I'm guessing the lower-than-1 difficulty is to make checking hashes easier?
521 2011-05-28 01:06:04 <jgarzik> luke-jr: the target was copied from slush
522 2011-05-28 01:06:06 <Kiba> Bitcoin succeeds because bitcoin is ugly!
523 2011-05-28 01:06:11 <ArtForz> *looks at his 50-line python affair* *shakes head* *walks away*
524 2011-05-28 01:06:20 <Kiba> http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/bitcoin-is-worse-is-better
525 2011-05-28 01:06:22 <BlueMatt> oh god damnit
526 2011-05-28 01:06:23 <luke-jr> jgarzik: o
527 2011-05-28 01:06:41 <luke-jr> jgarzik: is it hard-coded? ie, if I change it to a higher difficulty, will I need to write a new hash-checking algo?
528 2011-05-28 01:07:00 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: i looked at doing it
529 2011-05-28 01:07:07 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: making it configurable
530 2011-05-28 01:07:11 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: it's non-trivial
531 2011-05-28 01:07:15 <luke-jr> :/
532 2011-05-28 01:07:30 <jgarzik> ideally it is configurable
533 2011-05-28 01:07:41 <jgarzik> I've been wanting to move pool clients to a higher diff
534 2011-05-28 01:07:52 <jgarzik> patches welcome :)
535 2011-05-28 01:07:52 <luke-jr> I was thinking it'd be nice to let the GPU miners use a higher diff, and weigh the shares
536 2011-05-28 01:07:57 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: there's a check in check_result (I think that's the function) that has to be removed and changed
537 2011-05-28 01:08:05 <jgarzik> luke-jr: yes. old (but good) idea.
538 2011-05-28 01:08:06 <luke-jr> jgarzik: it would have to be per-user, or CPU miners would suffer
539 2011-05-28 01:08:09 <devrandom> BlueMatt - acknowledged
540 2011-05-28 01:08:22 <jgarzik> luke-jr: it just a higher-diff pool, and let CPU miners choose not to use it.
541 2011-05-28 01:08:26 <luke-jr> :P
542 2011-05-28 01:08:39 <jgarzik> luke-jr: at xf2.org I was contemplating 'normal' and 'higher diff' pools
543 2011-05-28 01:08:43 <luke-jr> CPU miners are then left on their own pathetic useless pool :p
544 2011-05-28 01:08:44 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: and jgarzik says theres some other places that it may be hardcoded but i got bored and just told it to stop rewriting diff period because that was fine for my purpose ;P
545 2011-05-28 01:09:04 <gjs278> actually the high difficulty shares would be pretty useful
546 2011-05-28 01:09:12 <jgarzik> yes
547 2011-05-28 01:09:20 <gjs278> especially if you hit at the right moment
548 2011-05-28 01:09:30 <gjs278> you could end up submitting a really high share during a really short block and make out
549 2011-05-28 01:09:31 <jgarzik> with a 5970 submitting shares every few seconds, a higher diff would be more efficient
550 2011-05-28 01:09:32 LA9KSA has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
551 2011-05-28 01:09:52 <jgarzik> fewer work requests
552 2011-05-28 01:09:56 <jgarzik> for same hash output
553 2011-05-28 01:10:27 eoss has joined
554 2011-05-28 01:11:09 <devrandom> BlueMatt - which commit? a452d9ee2dea7e606ec102b0a1a411da4e5e5a91 ?
555 2011-05-28 01:11:16 <BlueMatt> devrandom: head
556 2011-05-28 01:11:24 <devrandom> ok
557 2011-05-28 01:11:47 <devrandom> please use gitian head too, there have been changes in the past week
558 2011-05-28 01:12:03 <BlueMatt> devrandom: ah, ok will do that before release
559 2011-05-28 01:12:39 <luke-jr> in the past ~week or so⦠Eligius has: 96.2% good shares, 2.9% stale, 0.65% duplicate, 0.2% unknown-work, 0.03% H-not-zero, and 0.01% unknown-user
560 2011-05-28 01:12:56 <luke-jr> I wonder wtf happens to get H-not-zeros
561 2011-05-28 01:12:57 <jrmithdobbs> i still don't understand why you're worrying about all that gitian stuff
562 2011-05-28 01:12:59 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
563 2011-05-28 01:12:59 WakiMiko has joined
564 2011-05-28 01:13:02 <luke-jr> someone intentionally trying to cheat?
565 2011-05-28 01:13:11 _Netsniper_ has joined
566 2011-05-28 01:13:12 <jrmithdobbs> hardly anyone distributes their own binaries anyways
567 2011-05-28 01:13:16 * jrmithdobbs beats dead horse
568 2011-05-28 01:13:41 * diki beats the corpse of jrmith
569 2011-05-28 01:14:04 <gjs278> diki if I ever met you irl I would fire a rocket launcher at you
570 2011-05-28 01:14:14 <diki> same here
571 2011-05-28 01:14:16 neoeinstein has joined
572 2011-05-28 01:14:23 <diki> mine's bigger though
573 2011-05-28 01:14:37 <gjs278> no point
574 2011-05-28 01:14:41 <gjs278> a small rocket would be good enough
575 2011-05-28 01:14:53 <jrmithdobbs> but it has copy/pasted firing mechanism logic so gjs's word fire and yours would jam
576 2011-05-28 01:15:06 <jrmithdobbs> s/word/would/
577 2011-05-28 01:15:20 johnlockwood has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
578 2011-05-28 01:15:21 WakiMiko_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
579 2011-05-28 01:15:28 <devrandom> jrmithdobbs - a trojaned binary would be very bad news
580 2011-05-28 01:16:02 johnlockwood has joined
581 2011-05-28 01:16:10 <devrandom> as bitcoin txs are irreversible, no recourse, etc.
582 2011-05-28 01:16:20 <jrmithdobbs> devrandom: there's still legal recourse
583 2011-05-28 01:16:33 <Namegduf> Presuming they can be caught.
584 2011-05-28 01:17:01 has quit (Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-251-229-237.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
585 2011-05-28 01:19:21 <devrandom> sigh, my bios battery died, and it forgot I wanted svm
586 2011-05-28 01:19:33 <diki> those things last years
587 2011-05-28 01:19:37 <diki> how did you kill it?
588 2011-05-28 01:20:18 eoss has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
589 2011-05-28 01:20:34 LA9KSA has joined
590 2011-05-28 01:21:14 devrandom1 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
591 2011-05-28 01:21:51 diki has quit ()
592 2011-05-28 01:22:01 <luke-jr> FWIW, my patches apparently bring 0.9% duplicate down to 0.2% duplicate :p
593 2011-05-28 01:22:44 eoss has joined
594 2011-05-28 01:22:58 <luke-jr> so that's 7 MH/s per GH/s
595 2011-05-28 01:23:01 <luke-jr> XD
596 2011-05-28 01:23:33 <soap> a free core2duo @ 2.6GHz!
597 2011-05-28 01:23:44 <soap> don't get to code one of those every day.
598 2011-05-28 01:23:56 <luke-jr> soap: when the pool is 60 GH, that's a whole 420 MH/s :p
599 2011-05-28 01:24:07 <luke-jr> so a free 5970 ;)
600 2011-05-28 01:24:08 <soap> 60 of them!
601 2011-05-28 01:24:25 <soap> Sixty CPUs /sounds/ more impressive. ;)
602 2011-05-28 01:24:44 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 420000
603 2011-05-28 01:24:47 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 420000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.971406539551 BTC per day and 0.0404752724813 BTC per hour.
604 2011-05-28 01:25:56 <jrmithdobbs> soap: but more power wasting so really less impressive
605 2011-05-28 01:28:13 <TbbW> a small fpga cluster then? ;)
606 2011-05-28 01:28:33 <ArtForz> a *really* small one
607 2011-05-28 01:28:54 <MemoryException> has anyone got a good fpga solution? i saw the one on the forum with 80mhash/s, but it's a huge and expensive fpga.
608 2011-05-28 01:29:13 <ArtForz> well, I'm getting 113 on S6-LX150s
609 2011-05-28 01:29:37 <MemoryException> i'm still working on getting it to run on my s6lx45
610 2011-05-28 01:29:47 <TbbW> damn... iwe been drewling over the S6-LX150 but ther too damn expensive XD
611 2011-05-28 01:29:57 <ArtForz> http://image.bayimg.com/gahkaaadp.jpg
612 2011-05-28 01:30:18 <MemoryException> 113mhash/s per fpga?
613 2011-05-28 01:30:24 <ArtForz> yup
614 2011-05-28 01:30:35 <MemoryException> not too shabby
615 2011-05-28 01:30:36 purpleposeidon has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
616 2011-05-28 01:30:40 <ArtForz> = that board does a bit above 900
617 2011-05-28 01:31:25 <MemoryException> are you doing 128 sequential sharound blocks (effectively pipelining the algorithm), or are you feeding back into the same sharound 128 times?
618 2011-05-28 01:31:33 <MemoryException> (122 times if you optimize out the first 3 and last 3)
619 2011-05-28 01:31:52 <ArtForz> 122 sequential rounds, even a bit less as you can pull stuff out of the W updatery
620 2011-05-28 01:31:56 ar4s has joined
621 2011-05-28 01:32:08 <MemoryException> nice
622 2011-05-28 01:32:15 <MemoryException> that's what i'd like to do, but it doesn't fit in the lx45
623 2011-05-28 01:32:19 <ArtForz> single pipeline stage per round as 2 stages/round is too big :/
624 2011-05-28 01:32:25 <gjs278> can it play crysis
625 2011-05-28 01:32:38 <ArtForz> it'd fit nicely on a LX100, too
626 2011-05-28 01:32:42 <ArtForz> but yeah, 45 is too small
627 2011-05-28 01:32:52 <MemoryException> ya it's too bad because i own a ton of 45s haha
628 2011-05-28 01:32:59 <ArtForz> might want to do a single pipelined sha256 block
629 2011-05-28 01:33:11 <MemoryException> yup, am working with that now
630 2011-05-28 01:33:14 <TbbW> djs278: it probobly could if it was pci-e and a dvi/svga port attached to it ;)
631 2011-05-28 01:33:16 <MemoryException> i can fit about 48 of them in
632 2011-05-28 01:33:23 <ArtForz> thats... not much
633 2011-05-28 01:33:46 <ArtForz> I was thinking 64-round pipelined engine
634 2011-05-28 01:33:54 <MemoryException> ya i would love if that fit haha
635 2011-05-28 01:34:03 <MemoryException> tried that too. would fit in the lx75
636 2011-05-28 01:34:16 <ArtForz> err, really? a 64-round block should easily fit a lx45
637 2011-05-28 01:34:29 <MemoryException> maybe we're comparing different things here
638 2011-05-28 01:34:41 <ArtForz> make sure you use shift regs to reduce FF usage for carrying W around
639 2011-05-28 01:35:03 <MemoryException> i made a sharound block that feeds back into itself, with the worker function and all associated logic. it takes 122 clocks to generate a hash.
640 2011-05-28 01:35:12 <ArtForz> eww
641 2011-05-28 01:35:22 <ArtForz> = shitloads of control overhead
642 2011-05-28 01:35:28 <MemoryException> nah it actually wasn't too bad
643 2011-05-28 01:35:31 <MemoryException> and it runs at 400MHz :D
644 2011-05-28 01:35:41 <ArtForz> not bad
645 2011-05-28 01:35:43 <MemoryException> but ... 122 clocks per hash kind of sucks
646 2011-05-28 01:35:58 <Diablo-D3> ;;bc,mtgox
647 2011-05-28 01:36:02 <ArtForz> actually... 400m hz synthesize or actually placed&routed?
648 2011-05-28 01:36:05 <MemoryException> well, Xilinx says 350MHz or so
649 2011-05-28 01:36:09 <MemoryException> after place and route
650 2011-05-28 01:36:10 <ArtForz> *major* diff
651 2011-05-28 01:36:14 <MemoryException> but i just cranked the core voltage up a bit
652 2011-05-28 01:36:15 <MemoryException> and it does it
653 2011-05-28 01:36:17 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.83,"low":8.4728,"vol":14454,"buy":8.471,"sell":8.5838,"last":8.58}}
654 2011-05-28 01:36:18 <ArtForz> yeah
655 2011-05-28 01:36:20 <MemoryException> 1.4V haha
656 2011-05-28 01:36:25 <ArtForz> yeouch
657 2011-05-28 01:36:34 <ArtForz> I run 1.28 or so
658 2011-05-28 01:36:36 <MemoryException> gets a bit warm
659 2011-05-28 01:36:56 <ArtForz> problem is the FBGA484 package is *really* crap thermally
660 2011-05-28 01:36:59 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
661 2011-05-28 01:37:32 <MemoryException> ya i'm not sure what i'll do about cooling
662 2011-05-28 01:38:00 <ArtForz> I mean, for a lx45 it isn't too bad, but with a LX150... *fun*
663 2011-05-28 01:38:06 <MemoryException> haha i bet
664 2011-05-28 01:38:26 <MemoryException> how much do you pay for the lx150? around 150 usd?
665 2011-05-28 01:38:44 <ArtForz> 180 these are -3s
666 2011-05-28 01:39:07 <ArtForz> well, 7 are, one is a -2
667 2011-05-28 01:39:13 <MemoryException> decent
668 2011-05-28 01:39:43 <MemoryException> are you running the fpgas on a pool?
669 2011-05-28 01:39:47 <ArtForz> the -2 isn't really much slower though, ofc that just might be a lucky chip
670 2011-05-28 01:40:05 <ArtForz> currently they are running on my solo "pool"
671 2011-05-28 01:40:05 <EPiSKiNG> how much would it cost to get a FPGA to 1GH/s
672 2011-05-28 01:40:21 <gjs278> you would just get multiple of them
673 2011-05-28 01:40:30 <MemoryException> EPiSKiNG: you'd probably have more luck running several FPGAs in parallel
674 2011-05-28 01:40:38 <EPiSKiNG> how much money are you talking?
675 2011-05-28 01:40:38 <MemoryException> you'd need a monster FPGA to get enough hash engines to run 1GH/s
676 2011-05-28 01:40:53 <MemoryException> well, ArtForz could do it for 1000/113*180 dollars
677 2011-05-28 01:41:04 <MemoryException> about 1600 usd?
678 2011-05-28 01:41:09 <MemoryException> plus the cost of the PCB
679 2011-05-28 01:41:21 <MemoryException> which is pretty small compared to the hardware itself
680 2011-05-28 01:41:48 <EPiSKiNG> hmm... chance that the costs will go down?
681 2011-05-28 01:42:16 <MemoryException> the cost of hardware probably won't. fpgas are kind of a niche market...
682 2011-05-28 01:42:22 <ArtForz> ... doubt it, at least not until xilinx/altera get the 28nm series out
683 2011-05-28 01:42:23 <MemoryException> i think you'll have more luck when someone releases an ASIC chip
684 2011-05-28 01:42:35 <MemoryException> someone is bound to slip in their FPGA design on a test chip somewhere
685 2011-05-28 01:42:47 <ArtForz> around the same time 7xxx ATIs should come out
686 2011-05-28 01:43:04 simplecoin has quit (Quit: Page closed)
687 2011-05-28 01:43:21 has joined
688 2011-05-28 01:43:39 traviscj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
689 2011-05-28 01:43:52 <ArtForz> wait a sec... you're getting > 150Mhps out of a LX45?
690 2011-05-28 01:44:05 <MemoryException> ArtForz: How do you load your FPGA with the midstate value, etc. Are you just streaming it in serially? And do you share the work of running across 2^32 nonces between the FPGAs, or is each one running a separate instance?
691 2011-05-28 01:44:46 <ArtForz> 400mhz engine clock * 48 engines / 122 clocks/hash
692 2011-05-28 01:45:37 <ArtForz> MemoryException: simple sync serial proto, each fpga gets assigned a 3-bit address which also is the lowest 3 bits of nonce
693 2011-05-28 01:46:01 <MemoryException> with no controller, or way to load the midstate, or anything like that yet. and the 122 clocks per hash doesn't include loading the initial state, etc
694 2011-05-28 01:46:32 <ArtForz> how the hell did you do p&r then if you cant even load input data?
695 2011-05-28 01:46:42 <MemoryException> i mux it into a single 32 bit input
696 2011-05-28 01:46:47 <MemoryException> generate the sha rounds
697 2011-05-28 01:46:51 <MemoryException> and run seperate resets to each
698 2011-05-28 01:46:57 <MemoryException> so that the synthesis tool doesn't think they're all equivalent
699 2011-05-28 01:47:11 <MemoryException> otherwise it will tear out all the generated sharounds, thinking they're identical
700 2011-05-28 01:47:16 <ArtForz> yep
701 2011-05-28 01:47:21 _Netsniper_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
702 2011-05-28 01:47:26 <MemoryException> it's still very much a proof of concept
703 2011-05-28 01:47:45 <MemoryException> when it's done, i am aiming for better than 80mhash/s on an lx45
704 2011-05-28 01:47:48 <ArtForz> for my initial tests I just used bigass shift regs to get data in/out ;)
705 2011-05-28 01:48:46 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
706 2011-05-28 01:48:56 <ArtForz> running on a seperate clock and very loose maxdelay contraints on serial in regs -> engine -> serial out regs
707 2011-05-28 01:49:18 <MemoryException> right
708 2011-05-28 01:49:19 dukeleto has joined
709 2011-05-28 01:49:27 jfksir has joined
710 2011-05-28 01:51:08 <ArtForz> how are you handling the add between first and second block?
711 2011-05-28 01:51:31 sethsethseth_ has joined
712 2011-05-28 01:51:49 <MemoryException> you mean between the first sha-256 complete round, and the second?
713 2011-05-28 01:51:54 <ArtForz> yep
714 2011-05-28 01:52:28 <MemoryException> ya ... something i still have to do. right now i'm actually just running the sharound back into itself and calculating the next round. i haven't separated the first stage and second stage.
715 2011-05-28 01:52:33 <MemoryException> so, i still have a ways to go
716 2011-05-28 01:52:34 <ArtForz> the a..h + midstate part
717 2011-05-28 01:52:59 <ArtForz> because 8 additional 32-bit adders per block are going to hurt
718 2011-05-28 01:53:05 <ArtForz> *per engine
719 2011-05-28 01:54:34 <MemoryException> i'll have to pipeline that somehow. maybe i can offset all of the sharounds (since the transition from first stage to second stage only happens once per 122 clock cycles). and they can all share the same set of adders.
720 2011-05-28 01:54:37 <MemoryException> not sure how i'll approach it yet
721 2011-05-28 01:54:52 <ArtForz> wait... 122 clocks per block?
722 2011-05-28 01:55:07 <ArtForz> *blink*
723 2011-05-28 01:55:19 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
724 2011-05-28 01:55:34 sethsethseth____ has joined
725 2011-05-28 01:55:49 <MemoryException> ugh
726 2011-05-28 01:55:49 <MemoryException> sorry
727 2011-05-28 01:55:53 <MemoryException> 122*64 clocks
728 2011-05-28 01:56:06 <MemoryException> no wait...
729 2011-05-28 01:56:12 <MemoryException> ya 122 clocks per hash, right?
730 2011-05-28 01:56:17 <CIA-103> bitcoin-release: Dev Random master * reb796e6 / (13 files in 5 dirs): change file name convention, start adding release number to build report - http://bit.ly/jc6z3b
731 2011-05-28 01:56:19 <ArtForz> should be... more or less
732 2011-05-28 01:56:24 <devrandom> yay
733 2011-05-28 01:56:28 <MemoryException> so, the transition from 1st to second stage is in the middle, at 61 clocks
734 2011-05-28 01:56:36 sethsethseth_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
735 2011-05-28 01:56:37 <MemoryException> so, if the add you are talking about is between 1st and 2nd stage
736 2011-05-28 01:56:38 <ArtForz> if you have a single round with one register set and mux feedback, about 122 clocks/hash
737 2011-05-28 01:56:54 <MemoryException> then it should only happen once every 122 clocks per sharound instance
738 2011-05-28 01:57:02 <ArtForz> yep
739 2011-05-28 01:57:07 <MemoryException> so, if i offset all the sharounds, hopefully i can find a way to share the monster adder you are talking about
740 2011-05-28 01:57:16 <MemoryException> but, to be sincere, i haven't even looked at that yet :$
741 2011-05-28 01:57:16 <ArtForz> doing it serially is probably cheapest
742 2011-05-28 01:59:06 <MemoryException> ah yes I see the add you're talking about
743 2011-05-28 01:59:15 <MemoryException> that will be a fun challenge :)
744 2011-05-28 01:59:47 <luke-jr> hmm, if Bitcoin is ever accused of being for "laundering", we can just point to the fact that respending recently received funds is shunned ;)
745 2011-05-28 02:00:27 <ArtForz> yep, doing it the stupid parallel way pretty much doubles the # of adders each engine requires
746 2011-05-28 02:00:55 <MemoryException> i might be ok though, because I can pipeline those adds in the clocks leading up to the transition to the second stage, since only two of those variables are altered each round i believe
747 2011-05-28 02:01:15 <ArtForz> yup
748 2011-05-28 02:03:10 <Lachesis> has anyone used OpenPGP cards before?
749 2011-05-28 02:03:19 <Lachesis> smart cards are such a PITA to get in the USA
750 2011-05-28 02:04:20 <luke-jr> didn't TDM supercede them?
751 2011-05-28 02:04:37 <ArtForz> still, 350MHz with a single-pipelined round is pretty damn crazy
752 2011-05-28 02:05:15 purpleposeidon has joined
753 2011-05-28 02:05:25 <MemoryException> it's taken some serious effort to get there. we'll see if it maintains that speed once it's finished
754 2011-05-28 02:05:56 <ArtForz> yeah, the adder tree is a bitch to optimize
755 2011-05-28 02:06:38 <MemoryException> the hardest part (i've found) was the worker function (or, what i call the worker function anyways)
756 2011-05-28 02:06:43 <MemoryException> the 16 word 32-bit delay line
757 2011-05-28 02:07:08 <ArtForz> you mean the W update stuff?
758 2011-05-28 02:07:11 <MemoryException> yes
759 2011-05-28 02:07:18 <ArtForz> dunno
760 2011-05-28 02:07:41 <ArtForz> my critpath was pretty much always the adder leading to a_out
761 2011-05-28 02:07:50 <MemoryException> it takes a huge number of registers. and if you are pipelining it, you have to transfer 512 bits every clock (or two clocks if pipelined) to the next sha round. xilinx could never route it for me.
762 2011-05-28 02:07:57 <dx398> Hello ArtForz, I read you already mine using ASICS,(200MHash/s using only 8W),why are you developing with FPGA's? is it to eventually sell to the mining community?
763 2011-05-28 02:08:29 <ArtForz> yup, pretty much
764 2011-05-28 02:08:37 dukeleto has quit (Excess Flood)
765 2011-05-28 02:09:26 <MemoryException> btw has anyone every actually verified cypherf0x and the claims on the forum about 210mhash/s with a spartan 3?
766 2011-05-28 02:09:28 dukeleto has joined
767 2011-05-28 02:09:47 <MemoryException> because that's what got me started down the fpga path, and i find it really hard to wrap my head around how that was done
768 2011-05-28 02:09:51 <ArtForz> well, then he claimed spartan6, then some unspecified virtex, then spartan6 again
769 2011-05-28 02:10:19 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin-Testset build #6: STILL FAILING in 1 hr 2 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin-Testset/6/
770 2011-05-28 02:10:28 <MemoryException> hmmm, it keeps sounding more and more iffy to me. i'm not sure whether i believe those claims. 210mhash/s on a spartan6 even would be incredible imo.
771 2011-05-28 02:10:54 <ArtForz> and even on a LX150 his claimed engine design pretty much would use up every single SLICEL+SLICEM just for adders
772 2011-05-28 02:11:27 <MemoryException> ya, i head his first post and it said he was just using a utility to convert C code to verilog/vhdl... hmm, i duno.
773 2011-05-28 02:11:32 <ArtForz> aka "wtf, did your chip just grow some carry chains?"
774 2011-05-28 02:11:33 pnicholson has joined
775 2011-05-28 02:11:34 <MemoryException> read his first post*
776 2011-05-28 02:12:20 is now known as Netsniper|!~kvirc@adsl-76-251-229-237.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Netsniper
777 2011-05-28 02:12:21 <MemoryException> oh well. it's definitely interesting if he was successful in that. it would mean i still have lots of work to do
778 2011-05-28 02:12:27 <ArtForz> yup
779 2011-05-28 02:12:50 Netsniper is now known as Guest6212
780 2011-05-28 02:12:54 <MemoryException> anyways, i'm going to get back to it. i'm happy to hear from other people working on fpga designs. thanks for sharing :)
781 2011-05-28 02:13:22 <TbbW> good luck MemoryException :)
782 2011-05-28 02:14:04 <ArtForz> yup
783 2011-05-28 02:16:29 <dx398> anyone know where I can find a description of the mining math?
784 2011-05-28 02:16:38 <luke-jr> it's SHA-2
785 2011-05-28 02:16:40 <luke-jr> :p
786 2011-05-28 02:17:32 <dx398> thx,
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793 2011-05-28 02:23:42 <Xenland> What if someone wants to remain anonymous but wants to release under opensource how does that work legally if there is an issue?
794 2011-05-28 02:24:07 <Xenland> I'm betting you have to include your name in the Copyright part of the GPL
795 2011-05-28 02:24:13 <Xenland> in order to claim your works?
796 2011-05-28 02:24:18 <XX01XX> Xenland... You can put a digital signature.
797 2011-05-28 02:24:31 <Xenland> o.0
798 2011-05-28 02:24:37 <Xenland> How does that work?
799 2011-05-28 02:24:41 Teslah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
800 2011-05-28 02:25:18 <dx398> what about the bitcoin protocol, has that been documented yet?
801 2011-05-28 02:25:25 <XX01XX> You generate a keypair and then sign the code. If someone violates the terms of the license you can take them to court and prove it's your code by using the signature again. Never actually revealing your legal identitiy.
802 2011-05-28 02:25:47 <XX01XX> dx... have you looked on the wiki? lotta stuff on the wiki
803 2011-05-28 02:26:06 <XX01XX> e.g.:https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
804 2011-05-28 02:26:28 <jfksir> dx398: actually i think most client just wing it...
805 2011-05-28 02:26:50 <jfksir> they just say "hey...gimme some coins" and then the other replies "for sure man...np"
806 2011-05-28 02:27:02 <XX01XX> It'll be really werid if we develope small efficient AIs... no protocols anymore... the AIs just talk it out amongstthemselves.
807 2011-05-28 02:27:32 <jfksir> you mean there are real ppl in here?
808 2011-05-28 02:27:37 <TbbW> lmao
809 2011-05-28 02:27:39 <jfksir> i thought we were all AIs
810 2011-05-28 02:27:55 <XX01XX> "Hey gimmie some coins." "Sure thing man." "Thanks." "Why do we do this?" "Huh?" "Seriously, why don't we take over a manufactory and start cranking out killbots?"
811 2011-05-28 02:28:19 <Xenland> just for clarity, I basically "hash" my name and year and when i go to court, I demonstrate to the judge that by typing my name and year in the hash algorithm that it outputs the same result and therefore it is mine?
812 2011-05-28 02:28:27 <jfksir> my plan is to get all you silly humans addicted to either crack or computer games
813 2011-05-28 02:28:37 <jfksir> then you won't notice when me and my brethren take over
814 2011-05-28 02:28:46 <XX01XX> Xenland... minus the gross conceptual errors, yes.
815 2011-05-28 02:28:59 <Xenland> minus the huh?
816 2011-05-28 02:29:52 <jfksir> Xenland: you just put your public key in the code, along with a signature maybe
817 2011-05-28 02:30:22 <Xenland> oh god... not public/private keys again.... I'll just google it again just so i don't get more confused about how digital sigs work
818 2011-05-28 02:30:28 <jfksir> then you can use your private key later to generate a message that can be authenticated as coming from the holder of the private key for the public key in the source code
819 2011-05-28 02:30:41 <Xenland> Why can't i just hash it?
820 2011-05-28 02:30:53 <Xenland> sha256 -> "Name and 2011"
821 2011-05-28 02:31:31 <jfksir> well, then anyone with your name could claim it, for a start
822 2011-05-28 02:31:49 <Xenland> hmmm
823 2011-05-28 02:31:53 <XX01XX> jfksir...they'd have to figure out the original message.
824 2011-05-28 02:32:06 <jfksir> the point is that you're the only one with the private key physically in your possesion
825 2011-05-28 02:33:04 <Xenland> okay so.. i hash it: sha256 -> "Name and 2011" then I hash the result. and with the result I put on the license correct?
826 2011-05-28 02:33:27 <jfksir> sure
827 2011-05-28 02:33:42 <Xenland> im just wondering becuase this only private/public key thing never made sense
828 2011-05-28 02:33:47 <jfksir> then you could demonstrate later that origin of the hash
829 2011-05-28 02:34:00 <jfksir> but that's a poor man's public key encryption
830 2011-05-28 02:34:15 <jfksir> you might as well just learn the public/private thing it's a lot more flexible and useful
831 2011-05-28 02:34:27 <Xenland> alright thanks mates, back to google
832 2011-05-28 02:36:03 <JFK911> ;;bc,stats
833 2011-05-28 02:36:05 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127243 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1780 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 0 hours, 18 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 538702.93765225
834 2011-05-28 02:36:13 <JFK911> ;;bc,gen 900000
835 2011-05-28 02:36:15 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 900000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 2.08158544189 BTC per day and 0.0867327267456 BTC per hour.
836 2011-05-28 02:36:35 <JFK911> ;;bc,gend 900000 16000
837 2011-05-28 02:36:35 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 900000 Khps, given the supplied difficulty of 16000, is 56.5778464079 BTC per day and 2.357410267 BTC per hour.
838 2011-05-28 02:37:39 <Xenland> ;;bc, gen 800000
839 2011-05-28 02:37:40 <gribble> Error: "bc," is not a valid command.
840 2011-05-28 02:37:46 <Xenland> ;;bc,gen 800000
841 2011-05-28 02:37:47 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 800000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 1.85029817057 BTC per day and 0.0770957571072 BTC per hour.
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852 2011-05-28 02:47:26 <jine> ;;bc,gen 10000
853 2011-05-28 02:47:27 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 10000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.0231287271322 BTC per day and 0.00096369696384 BTC per hour.
854 2011-05-28 02:47:30 <jine> lol :D
855 2011-05-28 02:51:10 ar4s has quit (Quit: ar4s)
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858 2011-05-28 02:55:05 <Xenland> jine: heh!
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874 2011-05-28 03:35:22 <da2ce7> ;;bc,stats
875 2011-05-28 03:35:24 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127250 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1773 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 22 hours, 51 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 539760.24153095
876 2011-05-28 03:35:25 <da2ce7> ;;bc,mtgox
877 2011-05-28 03:35:26 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.83,"low":8.41,"vol":14467,"buy":8.5541,"sell":8.5839,"last":8.5541}}
878 2011-05-28 03:37:30 Guest27447 has quit (Quit: Anarchism, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. -Emma Goldman)
879 2011-05-28 03:37:51 <jfksir> so did you guys ever sort out this fees issue?
880 2011-05-28 03:38:14 <jfksir> the total lack of clarity when ppl try to send bitcoins and are inundated with demands for ever higher fees...
881 2011-05-28 03:40:45 mmoya has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
882 2011-05-28 03:41:20 <XX01XX> ಠ_à²
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899 2011-05-28 03:55:17 theymos has joined
900 2011-05-28 03:56:34 sacarlson has joined
901 2011-05-28 03:56:35 <theymos> I think I may know why many people are having connection problems. I have 133 connections right now, but the default maxconnections is 125. Assuming my number is around average, most/all nodes that have 8333 open are rejecting further connections. Sound plausible?
902 2011-05-28 04:03:10 <io_error> I haven't looked at that bit of code
903 2011-05-28 04:03:49 <io_error> I wouldn't want to raise the default limit further, though, because most people are behind home routers that have crappy firmware that can't handle lots of open connections
904 2011-05-28 04:04:09 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: not necessarily
905 2011-05-28 04:04:19 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: that may be part of it though
906 2011-05-28 04:05:11 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: problem is, if they hit a node that doesn't have 8333 forwarded, and the host doesn't respond properly indicating the port is closed there is *no timeout* mechanism whatsoever.
907 2011-05-28 04:06:59 sacarlson has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
908 2011-05-28 04:07:03 <theymos> TCP should signal failure eventually.
909 2011-05-28 04:07:17 <theymos> (The OS's TCP system, I mean.)
910 2011-05-28 04:07:27 ForceDestroyer has quit (Disconnected by services)
911 2011-05-28 04:07:27 Vandroiy has joined
912 2011-05-28 04:08:36 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: most systems the timout is essentially (if not quite literally) forever
913 2011-05-28 04:09:55 <theymos> That's not good. Bitcoin actually sends a ping every 30 minutes, but it relies on TCP to actually kill the connection if the ping fails.
914 2011-05-28 04:10:06 <jrmithdobbs> yes
915 2011-05-28 04:10:26 <jrmithdobbs> and the way the code is written it's a serious pain in the fucking ass to fix it
916 2011-05-28 04:10:56 prax has joined
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919 2011-05-28 04:11:03 <theymos> There's not some option you can give to TCP to make it work properly?
920 2011-05-28 04:11:12 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: and the fix isn't portable between posix and win32 so there needs to be two separate fixes
921 2011-05-28 04:12:03 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: nope. there's a system wide setting on some systems, for instance linux ... but on linux enabling syncookies basically breaks said system wide setting and makes it get ignored
922 2011-05-28 04:12:36 prax_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
923 2011-05-28 04:14:39 tectonic has left ()
924 2011-05-28 04:14:44 <theymos> That seems like a problem with the OS. Each individual program should not have to worry about TCP timeouts.
925 2011-05-28 04:15:06 <theymos> I wonder what other programs do about it.
926 2011-05-28 04:15:25 <jrmithdobbs> ya well
927 2011-05-28 04:15:31 <jrmithdobbs> blame satoshi
928 2011-05-28 04:15:37 <jrmithdobbs> it's how it works on every system
929 2011-05-28 04:15:39 <jrmithdobbs> quite well documented.
930 2011-05-28 04:16:18 <theymos> I seem to remember reading in the TCP spec that there's supposed to be a timeout there. Maybe not.
931 2011-05-28 04:16:46 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: there are two methods on posix systems (I don't know or give two shits about win32)
932 2011-05-28 04:17:01 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: method 1) you use sigalrm to force a timeout. this is hard in bitcoin because of the threads.
933 2011-05-28 04:17:29 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: method 2) you open the socket non-blocking and use select/poll to tell when it's opened and timeout in your event loop
934 2011-05-28 04:17:43 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: both are hard to implement in bitcoin and I don't know if either will work on win32
935 2011-05-28 04:18:32 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: pretty positive the first wont at the least
936 2011-05-28 04:18:55 <theymos> The second probably will. I know there's some way of opening sockets non-blocking on Windows.
937 2011-05-28 04:19:05 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: the second is also error prone and has some fun gotchas
938 2011-05-28 04:19:51 <jrmithdobbs> theymos: but ya, I think you see what I'm saying if you've looked much at net.cpp.
939 2011-05-28 04:19:58 <jrmithdobbs> it's not an easy fix
940 2011-05-28 04:20:49 <io_error> Oh yes, I've run into that. It hasn't annoyed me enough to go and fix it (yet).
941 2011-05-28 04:20:53 <theymos> ArtForz wrote some custom networking code to deal with the fact that he is on a very dynamic IP. Maybe he'll be willing to give some pointers.
942 2011-05-28 04:20:54 <jgarzik> select is in winsock. it is portable. you can see an example of select use in the P2P code.
943 2011-05-28 04:21:09 sacarlson has joined
944 2011-05-28 04:22:13 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: but are the semantics actually the same re: errno on read/write when the socket's not actually connected yet?
945 2011-05-28 04:22:56 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs: should be close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades
946 2011-05-28 04:23:03 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
947 2011-05-28 04:23:31 <luke-jr> wait, connection attempts don't time out ever?
948 2011-05-28 04:25:00 <theymos> This scam spam on the forum is really annoying me. The forum is still broken so that it can't see anyone's IP address, so I can't effectively block the spammer.
949 2011-05-28 04:26:08 <jrabbit> restrict posting?
950 2011-05-28 04:27:05 <theymos> In what way?
951 2011-05-28 04:28:28 blueadept has quit (Quit: Leaving)
952 2011-05-28 04:29:03 <jrabbit> like force them to have a certain user class to post or something
953 2011-05-28 04:29:27 <jrabbit> it's not good for everyone but if it makes the forum better to read and deters the spamemrs that'd help
954 2011-05-28 04:29:33 <theymos> I don't want to prevent new users from posting.
955 2011-05-28 04:29:57 <jrabbit> oh then you're SOL unless you put in a captcha
956 2011-05-28 04:29:59 <jrabbit> :)
957 2011-05-28 04:30:47 <theymos> I think there is a CAPTCHA for users below a certain number of posts. They're doing it manually, though. I wish I could set the board to automatically ban users when it sees certain words in their posts.
958 2011-05-28 04:31:52 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: correct welcom to posix sockets 101
959 2011-05-28 04:32:18 vorlov has joined
960 2011-05-28 04:33:14 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: if that is the case, then blocking ICMP really *does* harm the internet :/
961 2011-05-28 04:33:29 glicth-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
962 2011-05-28 04:33:31 <luke-jr> jrmithdobbs: but, how is TARPIT any different, if ignoring the packet does the same thing?
963 2011-05-28 04:33:50 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: yes.
964 2011-05-28 04:33:58 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: what is tarpit?
965 2011-05-28 04:34:24 <luke-jr> TARPIT is a netfilter extention to hold the connecting socket on the remote machine open
966 2011-05-28 04:34:25 <jrmithdobbs> this is seriously on like the 10th-20th page of stevens' unix network programming vol 1
967 2011-05-28 04:34:28 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
968 2011-05-28 04:34:59 <jrmithdobbs> actually no, it's further in because he doesn't cover non-blocking sockets that early
969 2011-05-28 04:35:18 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: it is no different. both are stupid fixes to non-existant problems.
970 2011-05-28 04:35:38 <luke-jr> â¦
971 2011-05-28 04:35:47 <jrmithdobbs> luke-jr: syncookies fix any real issues those pretend to address.
972 2011-05-28 04:35:57 <jrmithdobbs> (seriously)
973 2011-05-28 04:36:03 <luke-jr> TARPIT is a trap for port scanners mainly
974 2011-05-28 04:36:27 <jrmithdobbs> if it only stops responding to suspected bad hosts then it's not nearly as horrible as ignoring all icmp
975 2011-05-28 04:36:53 <jrmithdobbs> but it's still a fix to a non-existant problem and merely security through obscurity in an overengineered package
976 2011-05-28 04:37:10 <io_error> I never block ICMP, it's much too useful :)
977 2011-05-28 04:37:13 <jrmithdobbs> don't run services on public interfaces that shouldn't be there.
978 2011-05-28 04:37:41 <jrmithdobbs> keep the services you do restricted to access by people they're supposed to be accessed by. if they're supposed to be public then keep them updated
979 2011-05-28 04:37:45 <jrmithdobbs> it really is that simple :(
980 2011-05-28 04:39:04 <io_error> You're preaching to the choir here
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986 2011-05-28 04:50:08 <theymos> I think my testnet reorg handling is working finally! There was another huge reorg recently, and BBE seems to have handled it correctly. Anyone notice anything broken on BBE testnet?
987 2011-05-28 04:51:27 Stellar has joined
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989 2011-05-28 04:51:32 Stellar has joined
990 2011-05-28 04:52:05 <Xenland> Why does bitcoin-php round to the nearest 0.01 when sending? Is it possible not to round?
991 2011-05-28 04:53:00 f1nack has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
992 2011-05-28 04:53:01 <Xenland> I sent something to myself with bitcoin-php and now im missing .01 of a bTC
993 2011-05-28 04:53:11 <Xenland> No transaction fees set in bitcoind either
994 2011-05-28 04:56:51 <io_error> Hey, I have an odd tx. I sent 5 BTC to someone and paid a 0.02 fee. But when I look on blockexplorer, I see an extra 0.01 sent (apparently back to myself). What gives?
995 2011-05-28 04:56:52 <io_error> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/56576865f59435c53ba4d72b9e9a1524a2d30a318ef8df94f140db3c3bf92ded#o1
996 2011-05-28 04:57:18 <theymos> change?
997 2011-05-28 04:57:36 <io_error> theymos: Yeah, but why didn't it just send 5.02 instead of 5.03? My bitcoin client says I sent 5.02
998 2011-05-28 04:57:59 <theymos> You didn't have the proper mix of inputs, probably.
999 2011-05-28 04:58:10 <io_error> theymos: LOL, but there was a 0.01 input in there!
1000 2011-05-28 04:58:25 <io_error> It could have just left well enough alone?
1001 2011-05-28 04:58:28 <theymos> Oh, right.
1002 2011-05-28 04:59:39 Beremat has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
1003 2011-05-28 05:00:58 <ArtForz> I *think* i know why... not 100% sure though
1004 2011-05-28 05:01:02 <io_error> At least I didn't lose any money (I think; how can I be sure that 0.01 came back to me?)
1005 2011-05-28 05:01:18 <ArtForz> the stuff in selectcoinsminconf doesn't know about min-score limits
1006 2011-05-28 05:01:33 <ArtForz> wait, no sub-0.01 output, scratch that
1007 2011-05-28 05:01:59 <ArtForz> nope, no clue
1008 2011-05-28 05:02:14 <io_error> Hah, if you don't know, it's probably hopeless :)
1009 2011-05-28 05:02:51 <ArtForz> I might have a remote idea why it did it, but not 100%
1010 2011-05-28 05:03:59 <ArtForz> hrrrm
1011 2011-05-28 05:04:25 Beremat has joined
1012 2011-05-28 05:05:12 <ArtForz> yeah, guess it's just the usual non-ideal iterative coin selection
1013 2011-05-28 05:06:01 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1014 2011-05-28 05:06:10 <Diablo-D3> http://i.imgur.com/18kNc.jpg
1015 2011-05-28 05:07:08 <ArtForz> knapsack problem is hard ;)
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1018 2011-05-28 05:10:54 <ArtForz> iirc we use some simple greedy algorithm to find a set of outputs to use
1019 2011-05-28 05:12:10 <theymos> So it just looped through the randomized set of inputs until it exceeded the target, not noticing the stupidity of this case?
1020 2011-05-28 05:12:19 <ArtForz> looks like it
1021 2011-05-28 05:12:40 <ArtForz> currently trying to retrace its decision process
1022 2011-05-28 05:13:05 <ArtForz> but its probably just a case of "stupid greedy algorithm is stupid"
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1024 2011-05-28 05:13:33 <io_error> Hm, maybe I can do some experiment with another algorithm.
1025 2011-05-28 05:16:51 <io_error> That function is over 150 lines, it MUST be wrong :)
1026 2011-05-28 05:17:15 <ArtForz> I think I see what went wrong
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1029 2011-05-28 05:18:14 <ArtForz> the 2.28 input was very young
1030 2011-05-28 05:18:41 <ArtForz> it usually doesnt pick a that young input if it has another choice
1031 2011-05-28 05:18:48 <io_error> Oh yes, it had 1 confirmation when I sent it.
1032 2011-05-28 05:19:25 <ArtForz> so basically it threw every other output it could in, still didnt have enough, then added that one
1033 2011-05-28 05:19:53 <ArtForz> and I don't think it's smart enough to not paint itself into corners like this ;)
1034 2011-05-28 05:20:07 FabianB has joined
1035 2011-05-28 05:20:08 <io_error> I'm not sure why it let me spend it at 1 confirmation
1036 2011-05-28 05:20:33 <ArtForz> well, it does use 1-conf outputs if it has no other choice left
1037 2011-05-28 05:20:36 <theymos> Isn't SelectCoins completely rerun when switching confirmation limits?
1038 2011-05-28 05:20:47 <ArtForz> theymos: yes
1039 2011-05-28 05:22:01 <theymos> It's not really that it first put in everything and then relied on that one, then. Just bad selection overall. It could have not put in the 0.01 if the randomization had been different.
1040 2011-05-28 05:22:02 <io_error> The weird part is, Bitcoin showed it in my available balance after only 1 confirmation; normally it does only after 2 confirmations.
1041 2011-05-28 05:22:06 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1042 2011-05-28 05:22:10 <theymos> It shows it after 1 confirmation.
1043 2011-05-28 05:22:21 <io_error> Weird, I should pay closer attention.
1044 2011-05-28 05:22:40 <ArtForz> theymos: but it does 1000 tries on the randomization, no?
1045 2011-05-28 05:22:53 eao has joined
1046 2011-05-28 05:24:28 <theymos> Oh, I hadn't noticed that.
1047 2011-05-28 05:24:54 <ArtForz> so how the f* did it miss removing those 0.01s?
1048 2011-05-28 05:25:37 <io_error> I had a run of bad luck? :D
1049 2011-05-28 05:26:08 <io_error> theymos: How are you unpacking nBits in PHP?
1050 2011-05-28 05:26:33 <theymos> I'm using a function that I believe was written by ArtForz (found it on the forum).
1051 2011-05-28 05:26:58 <ArtForz> I swear, I never wrote any php!
1052 2011-05-28 05:27:04 <io_error> LOL
1053 2011-05-28 05:27:22 <theymos> Here it is: http://pastebin.com/bGEesnkJ Maybe it was adapted from Python by mizerydearia.
1054 2011-05-28 05:27:42 <ArtForz> yea
1055 2011-05-28 05:28:23 <theymos> For the other direction, I'm actually calling a Python script that was written by ArtForz, since I can't figure out how to get it to work in PHP.
1056 2011-05-28 05:28:46 <io_error> I just found the same Python code on the forum
1057 2011-05-28 05:29:52 <io_error> Well, I don't feel quite so bad for not being able to figure out how to get it to work in PHP now :)
1058 2011-05-28 05:30:33 <theymos> I'm sure it is possible to do in PHP, but I'm not familiar enough with how compaction actually works, and I don't understand it from reading any of the code.
1059 2011-05-28 05:30:57 <io_error> Ha, ArtForz, you're just reading the block index directly and unpacking the binary
1060 2011-05-28 05:31:24 <io_error> theymos: I sort of get it, but it's using OpenSSL bignum functions, which aren't available in PHP
1061 2011-05-28 05:31:38 <io_error> and which i have no idea how they work
1062 2011-05-28 05:33:16 kluge has quit (Quit: ....)
1063 2011-05-28 05:33:17 <io_error> Last thing on my todo list is deriving the address from the scriptSig
1064 2011-05-28 05:34:19 <theymos> I just use regex plus my util.php (which is public). What project are you working on?
1065 2011-05-28 05:35:48 <io_error> You might not like it. It may compete with blockexplorer :)
1066 2011-05-28 05:36:28 <io_error> Obviously I need to search the forums more.
1067 2011-05-28 05:36:51 <theymos> I better stop giving you info, then. :)
1068 2011-05-28 05:41:05 <io_error> Bah, not finding it on the forum, worthless piece of crap it is :)
1069 2011-05-28 05:41:08 ntosme2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1070 2011-05-28 05:41:17 <theymos> http://pastebin.com/vmRQC7ha
1071 2011-05-28 05:42:23 dissipate has joined
1072 2011-05-28 05:42:44 <io_error> At least I'm learning a lot
1073 2011-05-28 05:44:26 <theymos> I also learned a lot, especially about SQL. You get a lot of opportunity to optimize SQL with stuff like this. Most of BBE's pages have just one SQL query.
1074 2011-05-28 05:44:45 <stuhood> how big is the schema?
1075 2011-05-28 05:45:03 <io_error> So theymos, where did you hide this public util.php? :)
1076 2011-05-28 05:45:20 <io_error> I know, I'm up to my ears in joins
1077 2011-05-28 05:45:21 <theymos> It's linked in a few threads.
1078 2011-05-28 05:45:39 <io_error> theymos: Weird, iv'e tried several searches and been unable to find anything relevant.
1079 2011-05-28 05:46:07 Xenland has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1080 2011-05-28 05:46:19 <theymos> https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1727.msg21321#msg21321 and https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=1844.msg22829#msg22829
1081 2011-05-28 05:46:36 <theymos> stuhood: What is "schema" in this context?
1082 2011-05-28 05:46:58 <stuhood> sql schema
1083 2011-05-28 05:47:04 <stuhood> how many tables
1084 2011-05-28 05:47:11 <io_error> theymos: Now those never turned up in any search, thanks :)
1085 2011-05-28 05:47:22 <theymos> Oh. 6 tables.
1086 2011-05-28 05:47:43 <stuhood> cool, cool.
1087 2011-05-28 05:47:59 Kurtov has joined
1088 2011-05-28 05:49:05 <io_error> Damn, I'm at 8 tables, I gotta work on that.
1089 2011-05-28 05:51:42 <io_error> er, 7 tables. But I'm tracking something that blockexplorer isn't :)
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1109 2011-05-28 06:21:18 <phantomcircuit> if ((nHashType & 0x1f) == SIGHASH_NONE)
1110 2011-05-28 06:21:24 <phantomcircuit> what's with the & 0x1f
1111 2011-05-28 06:21:28 <phantomcircuit> anybody know?
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1113 2011-05-28 06:22:38 <stuhood> are only the last 5 bits interesting for some reason?
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1118 2011-05-28 06:25:30 <gjs278> well & 0x1f means that nHashType contains 0x1f
1119 2011-05-28 06:25:33 <gjs278> what 0x1f actually is
1120 2011-05-28 06:25:35 <gjs278> no idea
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1122 2011-05-28 06:26:36 <gjs278> phantom circuit
1123 2011-05-28 06:26:39 <gjs278> 0x1f is 31 I believe
1124 2011-05-28 06:27:12 <gjs278> if you already knew these things I apologize
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1128 2011-05-28 06:32:11 <phantomcircuit> stuhood, apparently
1129 2011-05-28 06:32:26 <phantomcircuit> stuhood, although ANYONE_CAN_PAY = 0x80,
1130 2011-05-28 06:32:39 <stuhood> hm
1131 2011-05-28 06:32:47 <phantomcircuit> stuhood, so there are 2 lines with the & 0x1f and 1 if w/o
1132 2011-05-28 06:32:49 <phantomcircuit> it's weird
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1134 2011-05-28 06:32:59 <stuhood> seems unnecessary then?
1135 2011-05-28 06:33:08 <phantomcircuit> oh i see
1136 2011-05-28 06:33:09 <stuhood> unless SIGHASH_NONE contains extra info in the top 3
1137 2011-05-28 06:33:21 <phantomcircuit> you can have both SIGHASH_NONE and SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY
1138 2011-05-28 06:33:29 <phantomcircuit> makes sense
1139 2011-05-28 06:33:42 <stuhood> oh
1140 2011-05-28 06:33:44 <phantomcircuit> although i still dont get why
1141 2011-05-28 06:34:07 <stuhood> yea
1142 2011-05-28 06:34:09 <EPiSKiNG> deepbit is down
1143 2011-05-28 06:34:32 <phantomcircuit> good :P
1144 2011-05-28 06:34:49 <phantomcircuit> [Tycho], ^
1145 2011-05-28 06:35:23 xenland has joined
1146 2011-05-28 06:35:43 <EPiSKiNG> ;-)
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1193 2011-05-28 08:08:35 samfisher has joined
1194 2011-05-28 08:08:43 <samfisher> hi. how can I mine for namecoins?
1195 2011-05-28 08:08:53 <samfisher> can I use the CPU for that?
1196 2011-05-28 08:09:23 <doublec> samfisher: go to #namecoin
1197 2011-05-28 08:09:45 traviscj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1198 2011-05-28 08:10:16 <CIA-103> bitcoin-release: Dev Random master * r61d3524 / (4 files in 3 dirs): 0.3.22 build report by devrandom - http://bit.ly/k1vYJx
1199 2011-05-28 08:11:06 <CIA-103> bitcoin-release: Dev Random master * ra1cdb8b / (4 files in 3 dirs): 0.3.22 build report by devrandom - http://bit.ly/lLwUjy
1200 2011-05-28 08:13:26 fimp has joined
1201 2011-05-28 08:13:53 <UukGoblin> nanotube, i've just had a better idea for payments for domains. you send your 'register' transaction with a regular bitcoin fee and wait for it to get into a block. then wait for about 10 more blocks, and then sendmany to 4 outputs, which are the generation addresses of the first 4 confirming blocks.
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1206 2011-05-28 08:26:14 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/280
1207 2011-05-28 08:26:14 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1208 2011-05-28 08:27:20 deceit has joined
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1221 2011-05-28 09:03:01 <meLon> TCP Odin:8333->eithich.jpl.nasa.gov:62569 (ESTABLISHED)
1222 2011-05-28 09:03:14 <meLon> NASA understands
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1228 2011-05-28 09:31:07 <devrandom> ;later tell BlueMatt ignore that pull, problem still present
1229 2011-05-28 09:31:14 <devrandom> ;;later tell BlueMatt ignore that pull, problem still present
1230 2011-05-28 09:31:14 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1243 2011-05-28 10:09:33 <samfisher> my website accepts bitcoind. my website is for women mostly. bitcoin is used by men, mostly
1244 2011-05-28 10:09:53 <Xenland> cool
1245 2011-05-28 10:10:27 <samfisher> yea, but bitcoin orders are not what keep it running
1246 2011-05-28 10:10:27 Phoebus has joined
1247 2011-05-28 10:10:44 <samfisher> maybe when they'll be used on a larger scale
1248 2011-05-28 10:13:30 sprash has joined
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1259 2011-05-28 10:42:04 <sipa1024> hello - the server my irc client was running on experienced a flood attack
1260 2011-05-28 10:42:20 <sipa1024> ... the room it was in was flooded because of a broken water pipe
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1269 2011-05-28 10:52:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: wtf?
1270 2011-05-28 10:53:17 <sipa> hardware is fine, but power is turned off while the fire brigade pumps up the water :)
1271 2011-05-28 10:53:39 <BlueMatt> thats...odd
1272 2011-05-28 10:55:12 udovdh has joined
1273 2011-05-28 10:55:14 <udovdh> hello
1274 2011-05-28 10:55:29 <udovdh> I haven ATI rv635 here, could it be used for mining?
1275 2011-05-28 10:56:01 <udovdh> (running Fedora 14 x86_64)
1276 2011-05-28 10:56:04 <mtrlt> is that a hd3xxx
1277 2011-05-28 10:56:16 <mtrlt> if so, no
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1283 2011-05-28 11:00:25 <udovdh> thanks
1284 2011-05-28 11:00:44 <udovdh> that is vene though we have 3d etc from the radeon open source driver
1285 2011-05-28 11:00:50 <udovdh> that is even though we have 3d etc from the radeon open source driver
1286 2011-05-28 11:00:55 <udovdh> and mesa
1287 2011-05-28 11:01:14 <udovdh> ok, maybe later we can do some mining
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1302 2011-05-28 11:50:16 <BlueMatt> does bitcoin fall under Applications/Internet or Applications/Office ?
1303 2011-05-28 11:51:17 Mowcius has joined
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1305 2011-05-28 11:52:47 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, internet
1306 2011-05-28 11:53:34 <BlueMatt> sorry, should have been Applications/Internet/Communication or Applications/Office
1307 2011-05-28 11:53:42 <BlueMatt> it cant be just internet (though its shown there)
1308 2011-05-28 11:53:54 <phantomcircuit> for what?
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1310 2011-05-28 11:54:17 <BlueMatt> debian packages
1311 2011-05-28 11:54:21 <BlueMatt> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu-policy/ch2.html
1312 2011-05-28 11:54:45 <phantomcircuit> well gnucash is under office
1313 2011-05-28 11:54:49 <phantomcircuit> so i guess office then
1314 2011-05-28 11:55:07 <BlueMatt> thats what I was thinking...but all other p2p stuff is internet
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1318 2011-05-28 11:58:10 <kokjo> i have an idea: password based transactions! i would be easy to implement: 1. just take a hash of the password, and put it in a transaction script. 2. provide the password in another transaction.
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1321 2011-05-28 11:59:10 <BlueMatt> and when the node directly upstream takes the password that you just posted and sends the tx to themselves instead?
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1323 2011-05-28 12:00:24 <kokjo> @bluematt, i have already thouth about that flaw, but there must be some way around it...
1324 2011-05-28 12:00:39 <phantomcircuit> kokjo, yeah but you need a new script op
1325 2011-05-28 12:00:45 <phantomcircuit> and that's not gonna happen
1326 2011-05-28 12:00:46 <phantomcircuit> so
1327 2011-05-28 12:00:49 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1328 2011-05-28 12:00:57 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no you dont
1329 2011-05-28 12:01:11 <kokjo> i am only suggesting this because people a wieing about encrypted wallets
1330 2011-05-28 12:01:13 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you need to be able to hash the outputs
1331 2011-05-28 12:01:16 <BlueMatt> his idea works with current scripts, its just that you have no protection from upstream
1332 2011-05-28 12:01:22 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no you dont
1333 2011-05-28 12:01:30 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, no HIS idea does
1334 2011-05-28 12:01:41 <phantomcircuit> im saying that to use simple passwords you need a new script op
1335 2011-05-28 12:01:47 <kokjo> phantomcircuit: it already a script OP
1336 2011-05-28 12:02:01 <phantomcircuit> lol forget it
1337 2011-05-28 12:02:21 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no, hes right. There are ops to hash, and you can equalverify
1338 2011-05-28 12:02:34 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yes but that's not secure
1339 2011-05-28 12:02:39 <BlueMatt> that was my point
1340 2011-05-28 12:02:58 <kokjo> but is there a way to do it secure?
1341 2011-05-28 12:02:59 <phantomcircuit> however if you could get a hash of the transaction outputs from the script you could use a password with that hash
1342 2011-05-28 12:03:09 <phantomcircuit> but there isn't a way to get that using the current set of script ops
1343 2011-05-28 12:03:19 <BlueMatt> that is one way to do it
1344 2011-05-28 12:03:28 <phantomcircuit> is there another wya?
1345 2011-05-28 12:03:58 <BlueMatt> not sure...probably
1346 2011-05-28 12:04:03 <phantomcircuit> i dont think so
1347 2011-05-28 12:04:13 <BlueMatt> anyway, I would bet not with current scripts
1348 2011-05-28 12:04:19 <phantomcircuit> pretty sure you need to have a way to access the transaction outputs from scripts
1349 2011-05-28 12:04:20 xxxxxxx has joined
1350 2011-05-28 12:05:04 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: probably...I dont feel like thinking about it right now anyway, Im trying to get good ubuntu/debian packages ready so that we can get included in 0.4.0
1351 2011-05-28 12:05:17 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1352 2011-05-28 12:05:32 <phantomcircuit> well i've been told that there is no chance at all of new script ops being added
1353 2011-05-28 12:05:39 <phantomcircuit> so basically passwords are never going to happen
1354 2011-05-28 12:05:40 <BlueMatt> pretty much
1355 2011-05-28 12:05:57 <BlueMatt> unless there is a *huge* demonstrateable need for one
1356 2011-05-28 12:06:00 sethsethseth_ has joined
1357 2011-05-28 12:06:11 <BlueMatt> or if it can be done in a very backward compatible way
1358 2011-05-28 12:06:35 <phantomcircuit> it's trivially backwards compatible
1359 2011-05-28 12:06:50 <phantomcircuit> except that it would cause a fork
1360 2011-05-28 12:07:14 <BlueMatt> which is a problem
1361 2011-05-28 12:07:50 <phantomcircuit> yeah you'd have to include it in the script parsing but not in the script building
1362 2011-05-28 12:07:56 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1363 2011-05-28 12:08:00 sethsethseth____ has joined
1364 2011-05-28 12:08:42 <phantomcircuit> then when >99% of the network supposed it you could enable it
1365 2011-05-28 12:10:18 sethsethseth_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1366 2011-05-28 12:13:10 has joined
1367 2011-05-28 12:13:36 is now known as Netsniper|!~se@adsl-76-252-36-27.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net|Guest89039
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1378 2011-05-28 12:36:13 <sturles> I wonder.. My home computer is listed as one of many seed nodes in the client. This is unfortunate, because I only have 250 kbps out, shared with my phone line. Sometimes a lot of clients are downloading blocks at the same time, and saturates my line. While I agree to have as any seed nodes as possible, is it possible to drop low bandwidth nodes from the list? It would make initial blockchain downloading faster for all as well.
1379 2011-05-28 12:36:51 <BlueMatt> submit a pull req removing your node from the list, it will be pulled
1380 2011-05-28 12:37:45 <sturles> My suggestion was to test the bandwidth of al the nodes to improve the quality.
1381 2011-05-28 12:38:05 <sturles> Make initial blockchain downloading faster.
1382 2011-05-28 12:38:43 <sturles> It can take hours now if you are unlucky.
1383 2011-05-28 12:39:25 <BlueMatt> seed nodes are not there to provide block uploads, they are there to get you connected to other nodes
1384 2011-05-28 12:40:02 <soap> but many ISPs fudge short burst bandwidth (aka Time Warner's Power Boost)
1385 2011-05-28 12:40:03 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1386 2011-05-28 12:40:08 kristianpaul has left ()
1387 2011-05-28 12:40:51 <soap> so any test can get false numbers.
1388 2011-05-28 12:41:25 <sturles> Better than nothing.
1389 2011-05-28 12:41:49 <BlueMatt> I would recommend you patch your bitcoin to not upload or highly limit your upload
1390 2011-05-28 12:41:58 Guest89039 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1391 2011-05-28 12:42:08 <sturles> That would hurt users even more.
1392 2011-05-28 12:42:14 <BlueMatt> no it wouldnt
1393 2011-05-28 12:42:14 <sturles> I want Bitcoin to succeed.
1394 2011-05-28 12:42:39 <soap> Not really. Basing a decision on known-untrustworthy data is most often worse than basing a decision on the idea you won't know.
1395 2011-05-28 12:42:41 <BlueMatt> again, seed nodes are not meant to upload the block chain, but to get you bootstrapped
1396 2011-05-28 12:42:45 Guest89039 has joined
1397 2011-05-28 12:43:19 sharkroman has joined
1398 2011-05-28 12:43:36 <sturles> It would. Slow initial block download s the main complaint I hear from new users. Their coins can't bee seen or used until the next day when it has finished downloading blocks.
1399 2011-05-28 12:43:40 <sharkroman> hey guys
1400 2011-05-28 12:43:49 <sharkroman> i'm having a crash on my bitcoin client
1401 2011-05-28 12:43:56 <sharkroman> it says exception:st9bad_alloc
1402 2011-05-28 12:43:59 <BlueMatt> sturles: its not the download thats slow, its the verification
1403 2011-05-28 12:44:02 <sharkroman> it happened right after someone transferred 2btc into my acc
1404 2011-05-28 12:44:10 sprash has joined
1405 2011-05-28 12:44:18 <samfisher> where bitcoins go if i send them to a namecoin address?
1406 2011-05-28 12:44:28 <sturles> BlueMatt: For people donwloading from me, download is certainly slow. :-)
1407 2011-05-28 12:44:29 <samfisher> or to a not-used-yet one?
1408 2011-05-28 12:44:49 <sturles> Sometimes I have several minutes lag on omy line.
1409 2011-05-28 12:45:25 <sturles> Connections drop because of 100 clients downloading blocks at the same time.
1410 2011-05-28 12:45:28 <BlueMatt> sturles: that is why its a p2p net, instead of a direct download net
1411 2011-05-28 12:45:35 <samfisher> what's the definition of bootstrapped?
1412 2011-05-28 12:45:42 <sharkroman> ahhh
1413 2011-05-28 12:45:49 <sharkroman> anyone can help me?
1414 2011-05-28 12:46:06 <BlueMatt> sharkroman: that is no where near enough info
1415 2011-05-28 12:46:25 <sharkroman> BlueMatt, any hint?
1416 2011-05-28 12:46:32 <sharkroman> i tried reinstall
1417 2011-05-28 12:46:35 <sharkroman> but didn't work
1418 2011-05-28 12:46:41 <BlueMatt> environment?
1419 2011-05-28 12:46:50 <BlueMatt> bitcoin version?
1420 2011-05-28 12:47:24 <sharkroman> 0.3.22 rc5
1421 2011-05-28 12:47:40 <sharkroman> tried 0.3.21 as well
1422 2011-05-28 12:47:48 <pwrcycle> xenland around?
1423 2011-05-28 12:48:00 <sturles> BlueMatt: Yep, so why not impove it? It will not help any user if I throttle my bitcoin client, as I am one of the peers. I just set up at client at a computer with 10 Gbps to the internet. People should use that one instead.
1424 2011-05-28 12:48:23 <BlueMatt> sturles: then submit a pull to change your node's ip
1425 2011-05-28 12:48:29 <sturles> It is much better suited to get people connected and started quickly.
1426 2011-05-28 12:48:42 <sturles> Isn't the list automatically generated?
1427 2011-05-28 12:48:47 <BlueMatt> no
1428 2011-05-28 12:48:49 csolar has joined
1429 2011-05-28 12:48:59 <BlueMatt> if it had been in the past, it is no longer
1430 2011-05-28 12:50:19 <Sami345> lol fresh install 160 000 KHash/s -> 180 000 KHash/S
1431 2011-05-28 12:50:33 <sturles> I have never announced my node as a public seed node.
1432 2011-05-28 12:51:19 <BlueMatt> sturles: but its in pnSeeds?
1433 2011-05-28 12:51:45 Xenland has joined
1434 2011-05-28 12:52:26 <sturles> Yes.
1435 2011-05-28 12:52:37 samfisher has quit (Quit: exit error code 434)
1436 2011-05-28 12:52:45 csolar has left ()
1437 2011-05-28 12:53:13 <BlueMatt> then its because, in the past, satoshi or whoever just pulled a list of nodes and put them in pnSeed, now it hasnt been touched in a long time
1438 2011-05-28 12:53:35 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1439 2011-05-28 12:54:56 <sturles> It was put there in 0.3.20.
1440 2011-05-28 12:55:01 vigilyn has joined
1441 2011-05-28 12:56:16 <sturles> https://github.com/nanotube/bitcoin/commit/d50f3a0b1107c2ba40ff4bbd9ba040eb3f9416f1
1442 2011-05-28 12:56:19 <BlueMatt> MagicalTux ran a program which checked uptime of known nodes
1443 2011-05-28 12:56:19 peck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1444 2011-05-28 12:56:26 Guest89039 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1445 2011-05-28 12:56:27 <BlueMatt> and they just added what had the highest uptime
1446 2011-05-28 12:56:28 tcoppi has joined
1447 2011-05-28 12:56:48 <BlueMatt> again, upload speed of the seed nodes does not matter, they are not there to upload
1448 2011-05-28 12:56:58 <sturles> Automatically, as I assumed.
1449 2011-05-28 12:56:59 <BlueMatt> if you patch bitcoin to never upload blocks, it would make no real difference
1450 2011-05-28 12:57:30 <sturles> OK. I guess I could do that.
1451 2011-05-28 12:58:21 <sturles> It will not help other people or users very much, of course.
1452 2011-05-28 12:58:46 <BlueMatt> but seed nodes arent there to upload, just to bootstrap
1453 2011-05-28 12:58:56 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1454 2011-05-28 12:59:16 haavares has joined
1455 2011-05-28 12:59:36 peck has joined
1456 2011-05-28 13:00:11 <sturles> Can't NATed clients risk to connect to 8 different seed nodes? What if none of them upload blocks?
1457 2011-05-28 13:00:40 <BlueMatt> if one seed node patches to not upload blocks, its not a problem
1458 2011-05-28 13:00:51 <sturles> Or if every one of them are as slow as mine?
1459 2011-05-28 13:01:01 <BlueMatt> plus, again, its not bw that limits speed, its verification, which is disk-limited
1460 2011-05-28 13:01:35 <sturles> It doesn't take minutes to verify a block.
1461 2011-05-28 13:01:52 <sturles> My connection lags by minutes at it's worst.
1462 2011-05-28 13:01:52 <BlueMatt> nor does it ever take minutes to upload
1463 2011-05-28 13:02:07 kokjo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1464 2011-05-28 13:02:24 <BlueMatt> blocks are almost never larger than 50k
1465 2011-05-28 13:03:06 <sturles> I have clocked five minutes from I type a letter to itt arrives back on the screen over a ssh connection. It lags as heck.
1466 2011-05-28 13:03:15 haavares has left ()
1467 2011-05-28 13:03:22 <sturles> 50k isn't going any faster than one character.
1468 2011-05-28 13:03:23 <BlueMatt> then remove yourself from pnSeed
1469 2011-05-28 13:04:21 <sturles> I think my suggestion is better. As long as the list is automatically updated from time to time, I risk getting back.
1470 2011-05-28 13:05:14 <sturles> Also my IP address changes if I stay down for more thn 24 hours, and I risk getting added again with the new IP.
1471 2011-05-28 13:07:27 sharkroman has left ("Leaving")
1472 2011-05-28 13:14:25 * sipa1024 wonders whether a -seedonly flag could be created that disables rpc/wallet/blockchain/..., but only leaves the p2p protocol and seed node functionality
1473 2011-05-28 13:14:28 sipa1024 is now known as sipa
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1475 2011-05-28 13:17:35 xxxxxxx is now known as xxxxxxx`brb
1476 2011-05-28 13:17:40 xxxxxxx`brb is now known as xxxxxxx
1477 2011-05-28 13:20:51 <soap> 5 minute ping?
1478 2011-05-28 13:21:05 <soap> there is something else going on besides "slow connection"
1479 2011-05-28 13:21:51 <soap> ye know what, sturles, the BTC network will not only survive w/o your computer, from the sounds of it, it might actually run better.
1480 2011-05-28 13:22:49 Teslah has joined
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1482 2011-05-28 13:23:49 mmoya has joined
1483 2011-05-28 13:27:29 Teslah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1485 2011-05-28 13:33:54 chmod755 has joined
1486 2011-05-28 13:35:16 <Sami345> ,,bc,calc
1487 2011-05-28 13:35:16 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1488 2011-05-28 13:35:33 <Sami345> ,,bc,calc 240000
1489 2011-05-28 13:35:34 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1490 2011-05-28 13:35:59 <Sami345> ,bc,calc 240000
1491 2011-05-28 13:36:02 <Sami345> bc,calc 240000
1492 2011-05-28 13:36:03 <sturles> When there are 100+ competing sendqueues, transmission is going to be slow over a 200 kbps line, things get ugly. 2 kbps isn't much nowadays. Even my old modem could do 2.4 kbps.
1493 2011-05-28 13:36:12 <Sami345> ,,bc,calc 240000
1494 2011-05-28 13:36:13 <gribble> (bc,calc <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "echo The average time to generate a block at $1 Khps, given current difficulty of [bc,diff], is [time elapsed [math calc 1/((2**224-1)/[bc,diff]*$1*1000/2**256)]]".
1495 2011-05-28 13:36:16 <Sami345> :(
1496 2011-05-28 13:36:19 <Sami345> how to use it'
1497 2011-05-28 13:36:30 <sipa> ;;bc,calc 240000
1498 2011-05-28 13:36:30 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 240000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 12 weeks, 6 days, 1 hour, 48 minutes, and 49 seconds
1499 2011-05-28 13:36:37 <sturles> From the eighties.
1500 2011-05-28 13:44:22 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1501 2011-05-28 13:45:42 Sylph has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1502 2011-05-28 13:46:10 molecular has joined
1503 2011-05-28 13:47:21 <Sami345> ;;bc,calc 180000
1504 2011-05-28 13:47:22 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 180000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 17 weeks, 1 day, 2 hours, 25 minutes, and 5 seconds
1505 2011-05-28 13:49:05 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
1506 2011-05-28 13:49:06 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127328 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1695 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 10 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 545060.99088041
1507 2011-05-28 13:51:14 <luke-jr> ;;bc,gen 298000
1508 2011-05-28 13:51:15 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 298000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 0.689236068538 BTC per day and 0.0287181695224 BTC per hour.
1509 2011-05-28 13:51:44 Sylph has joined
1510 2011-05-28 13:52:22 <Xenland> Looks like I have a working complete front-end for pool mining.... now only if those put out a bounty would show up
1511 2011-05-28 13:56:14 <[Tycho]> How big is the bounty ?
1512 2011-05-28 13:56:15 Jefff has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1513 2011-05-28 13:56:49 Ramokk has joined
1514 2011-05-28 13:57:04 <BlueMatt> and there never has been a bounty on wallet encryption...
1515 2011-05-28 13:57:08 Jefff has joined
1516 2011-05-28 13:57:12 <BlueMatt> I picked the wrong thing to dev
1517 2011-05-28 13:57:31 <[Tycho]> Wallet encryption is cool.
1518 2011-05-28 13:58:33 Sylph has quit ()
1519 2011-05-28 13:59:37 <sipa> is there some automated tool for checking whether classes/methods/variables are never used from outside of their compilation unit?
1520 2011-05-28 13:59:50 <BlueMatt> grep?
1521 2011-05-28 13:59:53 <sipa> :D
1522 2011-05-28 14:00:14 <pwrcycle> hi Xenland
1523 2011-05-28 14:00:29 <Xenland> hey pwrcycle
1524 2011-05-28 14:00:48 <pwrcycle> how's the build going
1525 2011-05-28 14:01:48 EskimoBob has joined
1526 2011-05-28 14:01:52 <Xenland> I think it needs a public test. I'm reviewing to make sure I didn't overlook anything. No installation files yet
1527 2011-05-28 14:03:03 <EskimoBob> Hi, is this the channel where I can get some help with linux install (not U(ku)buntu) ?
1528 2011-05-28 14:03:14 <pwrcycle> how much ram are you starting with
1529 2011-05-28 14:03:21 <Xenland> This isn't exactly the place but nobody is really online so its cool with us
1530 2011-05-28 14:03:23 <BlueMatt> EskimoBob: #bitcoin
1531 2011-05-28 14:03:43 <BlueMatt> EskimoBob: if they cant answer, come back here
1532 2011-05-28 14:04:56 <EskimoBob> thank you. cheers
1533 2011-05-28 14:06:20 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1534 2011-05-28 14:06:40 <pwrcycle> Xenland: pm
1535 2011-05-28 14:10:19 gabriel_d has joined
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1541 2011-05-28 14:22:08 broker has joined
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1546 2011-05-28 14:31:09 <diki> Sipa, i've been trying the method you told me to calculate pool speed, but something isn't quite right here. Say i have 200,000 shares per hour. I divide by 3600 seconds and get 55,5555...and when i multiply by 4294.967296 i get 238606,90812928
1547 2011-05-28 14:31:34 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r65df66b7fbc1 gentoo/net-p2p/spesmilo/ (Manifest spesmilo-0.0.1_beta1.ebuild spesmilo-9999.ebuild): net-p2p/spesmilo: add RDEPEND on net-p2p/bitcoind with USE=local http://tinyurl.com/433qp6j
1548 2011-05-28 14:32:11 <diki> assuming 238606,90812928 is the speed in mhash, how do i convert it to more reasonable number?
1549 2011-05-28 14:32:25 <sipa> define reasonable?
1550 2011-05-28 14:32:37 <sipa> it's in Mhash/s, indeed
1551 2011-05-28 14:32:38 <diki> XXX.XX ghash/s
1552 2011-05-28 14:32:55 <sipa> you don't know how to convert a number from Mhash/s to Ghash/s?
1553 2011-05-28 14:33:16 <diki> if i divide by 100000000 i get some low number
1554 2011-05-28 14:33:24 <sipa> you know what M and G mean?
1555 2011-05-28 14:33:31 <mtrlt> diki: learn SI prefixes
1556 2011-05-28 14:33:32 <diki> yes?
1557 2011-05-28 14:33:35 <sipa> tell me
1558 2011-05-28 14:33:55 Phoebus has joined
1559 2011-05-28 14:34:19 <diki> How do i divide to get the speed in gigahashes?
1560 2011-05-28 14:34:33 <mtrlt> diki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
1561 2011-05-28 14:34:43 <mtrlt> there's your kilos, megas, gigas and teras
1562 2011-05-28 14:34:44 <mtrlt> :P
1563 2011-05-28 14:34:47 Sylph has joined
1564 2011-05-28 14:35:21 <sipa> diki: if you know what a M and G are, it shouldn't be an issue to convert from one to the other
1565 2011-05-28 14:37:43 TheAncientGoat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1566 2011-05-28 14:37:45 <gabriel_d> (1G = 1000M)
1567 2011-05-28 14:41:32 <diki> 238606.90812928 / 100000 i get 2,386... if i divide by 10000000 i get 0,238 which is again, not what i need nor expect, it should be like 238,XX
1568 2011-05-28 14:42:03 <diki> in case someone did not understand i divide 238606.90812928 only
1569 2011-05-28 14:42:10 <sipa> diki: if you have 238606 megabytes, how many gigabytes do you have?
1570 2011-05-28 14:42:12 manveru has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1571 2011-05-28 14:42:12 madveru is now known as manveru
1572 2011-05-28 14:42:54 <diki> look, that is some hard question, if 1Ghash is 1000Mhash, in hdd space it's 1GB = 1024 megabytes
1573 2011-05-28 14:43:07 <diki> so the example is not really great
1574 2011-05-28 14:43:07 Cusipzzz has joined
1575 2011-05-28 14:43:20 <diki> Either way, i just can't calculate it
1576 2011-05-28 14:43:31 chmod755 has left ("Leaving.")
1577 2011-05-28 14:43:31 <sipa> 1 Ghash is 1000 Mhash
1578 2011-05-28 14:43:40 <diki> 1GB = 1024MB
1579 2011-05-28 14:43:40 <sipa> so 1000 Mhash is 1 Ghash
1580 2011-05-28 14:43:52 <sipa> so 238606 Mhash is 238.606 Ghash
1581 2011-05-28 14:44:04 <sipa> just divide by 1000
1582 2011-05-28 14:44:32 <sipa> if you don't get that, go back to school, sorry
1583 2011-05-28 14:44:53 <diki> in school they dont teach you about computer space or any other thing like that
1584 2011-05-28 14:45:01 <gabriel_d> this is division
1585 2011-05-28 14:45:06 <GarrettB> diki: they teach you to divide
1586 2011-05-28 14:45:15 <GarrettB> I distinctly remember that from 3rd grade
1587 2011-05-28 14:45:17 <diki> Well i never did do great in math
1588 2011-05-28 14:45:20 <mtrlt> diki: school is bullshit, you have to learn everything yourself
1589 2011-05-28 14:45:22 <diki> i mostly skipped and still skip
1590 2011-05-28 14:45:33 <sipa> i don't care how you learn it, at school or otherwise
1591 2011-05-28 14:45:43 <sipa> but this is not the place to ask how to convert mega into giga
1592 2011-05-28 14:46:10 GarrettB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1593 2011-05-28 14:46:24 brunner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1594 2011-05-28 14:47:23 maikmerten has joined
1595 2011-05-28 14:49:32 <sipa> jgarzik, BlueMatt: i made a big mistake in the fee-split patch: no free transactions are accepted anymore at all
1596 2011-05-28 14:50:16 <phantomcircuit> lol
1597 2011-05-28 14:50:32 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r12a1256 / src/main.cpp : bugfix: accept free transactions - http://bit.ly/lfW99c
1598 2011-05-28 14:50:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, there really should be automated tests
1599 2011-05-28 14:50:39 <phantomcircuit> but of course
1600 2011-05-28 14:50:42 <phantomcircuit> THATS INSANITY!
1601 2011-05-28 14:50:44 <sipa> yes there should be
1602 2011-05-28 14:50:51 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: care to write them?
1603 2011-05-28 14:51:01 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, for the current client? fucks no
1604 2011-05-28 14:52:10 thermal is now known as thermal_
1605 2011-05-28 14:52:18 sanity has joined
1606 2011-05-28 14:52:29 thermal_ is now known as thermal
1607 2011-05-28 14:52:33 <gabriel_d> what's a good cross-platform application testing framework for c++ stuff? i'm from the web world
1608 2011-05-28 14:53:37 <phantomcircuit> gabriel_d, boost::test
1609 2011-05-28 14:53:50 GarrettB has joined
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1616 2011-05-28 15:00:52 <sanity> any cashcow devs on here?
1617 2011-05-28 15:01:17 <sipa> what is cashcow?
1618 2011-05-28 15:01:35 <sanity> sipa: http://cashcow.no-ip.org/
1619 2011-05-28 15:02:13 <jrmithdobbs> 09:38 < diki> i mostly skipped and still skip
1620 2011-05-28 15:02:22 <jrmithdobbs> errr
1621 2011-05-28 15:02:36 <jrmithdobbs> 09:38 < diki> Well i never did do great in math
1622 2011-05-28 15:02:40 amiller has joined
1623 2011-05-28 15:02:51 <jrmithdobbs> that's the guy i want running a financial system (pool) alright!
1624 2011-05-28 15:03:14 upb has joined
1625 2011-05-28 15:03:19 <gabriel_d> we taught him how to divide. he should be good to go now!
1626 2011-05-28 15:03:41 <jrmithdobbs> gabriel_d: except he just cut and paste your division algorithm and didn't actually take the time to understand it
1627 2011-05-28 15:03:44 <jrmithdobbs> <3
1628 2011-05-28 15:04:16 <mtrlt> copypaste coding ftw
1629 2011-05-28 15:05:21 <[Tycho]> How "bc,prob" command is used ?
1630 2011-05-28 15:06:08 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 1497000 1h 7m 5s
1631 2011-05-28 15:06:08 <gribble> 0.0032207376934
1632 2011-05-28 15:07:11 soossii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1633 2011-05-28 15:08:15 soossii has joined
1634 2011-05-28 15:09:56 <[Tycho]> Thanks.
1635 2011-05-28 15:10:29 <[Tycho]> 1497000 is hashes or kilohashes ?
1636 2011-05-28 15:10:53 <BlueMatt> k
1637 2011-05-28 15:11:27 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 100000000 30m
1638 2011-05-28 15:11:27 <gribble> 0.0918717777183
1639 2011-05-28 15:12:42 <[Tycho]> ;;bc,prob 100000 30m
1640 2011-05-28 15:12:42 <gribble> 9.63650529739e-05
1641 2011-05-28 15:12:48 gabriel_d has quit ()
1642 2011-05-28 15:13:01 <[Tycho]> !calc 9.63650529739e-05 * 434882.7217497
1643 2011-05-28 15:13:12 <[Tycho]> ;;calc 9.63650529739e-05 * 434882.7217497
1644 2011-05-28 15:13:13 <gribble> 9.63650529739e-05 * 434,882.7217497 = 41.9074965
1645 2011-05-28 15:14:08 sprash has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1646 2011-05-28 15:14:45 <[Tycho]> How do i calc this for difficulty 1 ?
1647 2011-05-28 15:15:59 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,probd
1648 2011-05-28 15:15:59 <gribble> Error: "bc,probd" is not a valid command.
1649 2011-05-28 15:16:05 <BlueMatt> nope, dont think you can the
1650 2011-05-28 15:16:06 <BlueMatt> n
1651 2011-05-28 15:16:17 Anderxander has joined
1652 2011-05-28 15:16:46 mosimo has joined
1653 2011-05-28 15:17:00 <sipa> nanotube: can we have a bc,probd command? :)
1654 2011-05-28 15:17:00 <Anderxander> Hello
1655 2011-05-28 15:17:20 <[Tycho]> ;;calc 1-exp(-100000*1000 * [1800] / (2**32* 1))".
1656 2011-05-28 15:17:20 <gribble> Error: "1800" is not a valid command.
1657 2011-05-28 15:17:21 <[Tycho]> ;;calc 1-exp(-100000*1000 * [1800] / (2**32* 1))"
1658 2011-05-28 15:17:22 <gribble> Error: "1800" is not a valid command.
1659 2011-05-28 15:17:28 <Anderxander> I'm interested in helping develop for bitcoin. Can da
1660 2011-05-28 15:17:28 <[Tycho]> ;;calc 1-exp(-100000*1000 * 1800 / (2**32* 1))"
1661 2011-05-28 15:17:29 <gribble> ...
1662 2011-05-28 15:17:36 <[Tycho]> ;;calc 1-exp(-100000*1000 * 1800 / (2**32* 1))
1663 2011-05-28 15:17:37 <gribble> 1 - exp(((-100,000) * 1,000 * 1,800) / ((2 ** 32) * 1)) = 1
1664 2011-05-28 15:17:47 <BlueMatt> [Tycho]: you care to do that in private?
1665 2011-05-28 15:17:53 <[Tycho]> Ok.
1666 2011-05-28 15:18:17 <BlueMatt> Anderxander: github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1667 2011-05-28 15:18:59 <BlueMatt> why do we link gthread? we dont use it afaict?
1668 2011-05-28 15:19:09 <BlueMatt> pthread we use, gthread...no
1669 2011-05-28 15:21:56 BitVector has joined
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1671 2011-05-28 15:22:51 <diki> jrmith, you suck pal...i am saying that in all my honesty....
1672 2011-05-28 15:22:52 sethsethseth_ has joined
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1677 2011-05-28 15:32:19 tcoppi has joined
1678 2011-05-28 15:34:17 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1679 2011-05-28 15:34:18 <gribble> 127337
1680 2011-05-28 15:36:14 jmorton has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1681 2011-05-28 15:37:53 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1682 2011-05-28 15:37:53 <gribble> 127337
1683 2011-05-28 15:38:59 blueadept has joined
1684 2011-05-28 15:39:47 MBS has quit (Quit: Lolbye)
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1686 2011-05-28 15:42:32 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1687 2011-05-28 15:44:30 MBS has joined
1688 2011-05-28 15:45:14 <sipa> grr, i need a block!
1689 2011-05-28 15:48:09 <diki> blocks per sec sure have dropped
1690 2011-05-28 15:48:15 <diki> ;;bc,stats
1691 2011-05-28 15:48:18 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127337 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1686 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 11 hours, 36 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 539006.11149022
1692 2011-05-28 15:48:31 tcoppi has joined
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1694 2011-05-28 15:48:31 NickelBot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1695 2011-05-28 15:49:10 <diki> the next diff could potentially slow the miners down for 14 days thus we might see a drop in diff
1696 2011-05-28 15:49:26 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1701 2011-05-28 15:54:32 <jgarzik> sipa: that's why we have -rc :)
1702 2011-05-28 15:55:34 <sipa> well, it seems after 5 rc's, not many people test the binaries anymore :)
1703 2011-05-28 15:57:00 tcoppi has joined
1704 2011-05-28 15:58:30 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, no nightlies yet?
1705 2011-05-28 15:58:33 <devrandom> hi BlueMatt
1706 2011-05-28 15:58:53 Lachesis has joined
1707 2011-05-28 15:59:07 <sipa> c'mon peeps, OC those radeons a bit further!
1708 2011-05-28 15:59:40 <phantomcircuit> lol
1709 2011-05-28 16:00:20 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1710 2011-05-28 16:00:22 <gribble> 127337
1711 2011-05-28 16:02:05 <BlueMatt> hi devrandom
1712 2011-05-28 16:03:09 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [bc,nethash*1000000] 52m
1713 2011-05-28 16:03:09 <gribble> Error: "bc,nethash*1000000" is not a valid command.
1714 2011-05-28 16:03:21 <sipa> ;;bc,prob [calc [bc,nethash]*1000000] 52m
1715 2011-05-28 16:03:25 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
1716 2011-05-28 16:03:28 <devrandom> BlueMatt: gitian is having issues... 64 bit wxWidgets triggers non-determinism in gcc... at least for me
1717 2011-05-28 16:03:51 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
1718 2011-05-28 16:03:55 diki has quit ()
1719 2011-05-28 16:04:06 <sipa> devrandom: can you derive where in the binary (which object/symbol/...) the non-determinism is in?
1720 2011-05-28 16:04:19 <devrandom> yes
1721 2011-05-28 16:04:21 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,nethash]*1000000
1722 2011-05-28 16:04:22 <gribble> 4,072.4145982020627 * 1,000,000 = 4.0724146 * 10^(9)
1723 2011-05-28 16:04:33 <devrandom> hang on, I'm pasting an example
1724 2011-05-28 16:04:42 <devrandom> sipa https://gist.github.com/806265#comments
1725 2011-05-28 16:04:43 <sipa> ;;bc,prob 4072414600 52m
1726 2011-05-28 16:04:44 <gribble> 0.99888911048
1727 2011-05-28 16:05:37 <BlueMatt> devrandom: hm, shame...also needs looking on win32, I have a feeling it is far from deterministic atm
1728 2011-05-28 16:05:46 <BlueMatt> (I have only tested that it builds)
1729 2011-05-28 16:05:50 <sipa> that's very trannge
1730 2011-05-28 16:05:52 <sipa> *strange
1731 2011-05-28 16:06:03 <devrandom> only happens with 64 bit wxwindows
1732 2011-05-28 16:06:08 <devrandom> wxwidgets
1733 2011-05-28 16:06:37 <devrandom> seems to be that one of the optimizers is non-deterministic
1734 2011-05-28 16:06:53 <devrandom> maybe a hash table that's traversed in memory order or something like that
1735 2011-05-28 16:06:57 <BlueMatt> very odd indeed
1736 2011-05-28 16:07:16 <devrandom> here's another one:
1737 2011-05-28 16:07:20 <sipa> which symbol does that code belong to?
1738 2011-05-28 16:07:23 <devrandom> - 2d62: 49 39 df cmp %rbx,%r15
1739 2011-05-28 16:07:23 <devrandom> - 2d65: 77 d1 ja 0x2d38
1740 2011-05-28 16:07:23 <devrandom> + 2d62: 4c 39 fb cmp %r15,%rbx
1741 2011-05-28 16:07:23 <devrandom> + 2d65: 72 d1 jb 0x2d38
1742 2011-05-28 16:07:57 <luke-jr> FWIW, wxbitcoin doesn't build against boost 1.46+
1743 2011-05-28 16:08:05 <luke-jr> (at all)
1744 2011-05-28 16:08:10 <devrandom> I'm not sure, haven't figured out how to get elfutils to dump symbols with disassembly
1745 2011-05-28 16:08:30 <devrandom> this one is kinda obvious
1746 2011-05-28 16:08:52 <devrandom> so I see a few options, maybe in order of desirability:
1747 2011-05-28 16:09:08 <sipa> -frandom-seed didn't help?
1748 2011-05-28 16:09:15 <devrandom> * figure out which gcc optimizer flag triggers this and disable for now
1749 2011-05-28 16:10:01 <devrandom> sipa - apparently that's just for some randomly generated syms, which are not related
1750 2011-05-28 16:10:10 BitVector has quit (Quit: .)
1751 2011-05-28 16:10:12 <devrandom> (i.e. we don't trigger that feature in gcc)
1752 2011-05-28 16:10:47 <sipa> hmm
1753 2011-05-28 16:10:52 <devrandom> * build against the distribution wx 2.8
1754 2011-05-28 16:11:32 <devrandom> * separate out the wx build and manually confirm any diffs. we only need to do that once and proceed with the golden wxwidgets for future builds
1755 2011-05-28 16:11:37 <BlueMatt> well wx2.8 will soon be used (hopefully for 0.4.0)
1756 2011-05-28 16:12:09 <BlueMatt> and then if its dynamically loaded...
1757 2011-05-28 16:12:12 <devrandom> * don't distribute 64 bits
1758 2011-05-28 16:12:20 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1759 2011-05-28 16:12:20 <gribble> 127338
1760 2011-05-28 16:12:39 <BlueMatt> no, 32-bit bitcoin doesnt work well on 64-bit linux atm
1761 2011-05-28 16:13:03 <devrandom> * manually diff the disassembly and have people sign a golden binary if the diffs look innocuous
1762 2011-05-28 16:13:16 <devrandom> ah
1763 2011-05-28 16:14:08 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1764 2011-05-28 16:15:29 <devrandom> would any of the other options be a no-go in your opinion?
1765 2011-05-28 16:15:38 <BlueMatt> jaromil: ping
1766 2011-05-28 16:16:06 <BlueMatt> no, any of those are fine depending on the exact implementation needed
1767 2011-05-28 16:16:08 <BlueMatt> imo
1768 2011-05-28 16:16:33 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r22468a18d039 gentoo/net-p2p/ (15 files in 2 dirs): net-p2p/wxbitcoin and net-p2p/bitcoind: DEPEND on specific version range of dev-libs/boost http://tinyurl.com/44d7qgg
1769 2011-05-28 16:17:08 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: 32-bit binaries only work on 32-bit OS
1770 2011-05-28 16:17:20 <luke-jr> that's not "atm", it's "ever" (for x86)
1771 2011-05-28 16:17:28 tcoppi has joined
1772 2011-05-28 16:17:33 <BlueMatt> pretty much
1773 2011-05-28 16:17:50 <BlueMatt> (except if you static link *everything* which we do on win32 anyway, so that works)
1774 2011-05-28 16:17:54 <sipa> the kernel doesn't matter, but you do need the necessary (32-bit) libraries
1775 2011-05-28 16:18:04 <luke-jr> XD
1776 2011-05-28 16:18:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: but static linking is bad, so :p
1777 2011-05-28 16:18:30 <BlueMatt> on win32, its the standard. that just means win sucks not that we are doing it wrong
1778 2011-05-28 16:18:43 <luke-jr> it wasn't when I used win32
1779 2011-05-28 16:18:55 <BlueMatt> well when was that?
1780 2011-05-28 16:18:59 <luke-jr> 8 years ago?
1781 2011-05-28 16:19:06 <BlueMatt> ...yea
1782 2011-05-28 16:19:35 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, everything is static linked now
1783 2011-05-28 16:19:38 <luke-jr> ew
1784 2011-05-28 16:19:47 <phantomcircuit> because of the fucktarded mess that is dlls
1785 2011-05-28 16:19:49 <BlueMatt> well when win32 ships bdb, boost, openssl, we can stop static linking
1786 2011-05-28 16:20:02 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: it would at least be better to dynamic link to DLLs in the program files dir
1787 2011-05-28 16:20:03 <BlueMatt> or provides some kind of proper management for dlls
1788 2011-05-28 16:20:04 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the vc runtime that microsoft uses isn't even available to normal people
1789 2011-05-28 16:20:10 <jaromil> BlueMatt: hola
1790 2011-05-28 16:20:12 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it doesn't have to ship with them
1791 2011-05-28 16:20:14 <BlueMatt> jaromil:
1792 2011-05-28 16:20:15 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, you have to build it from the fuckign driver development kit
1793 2011-05-28 16:20:17 <phantomcircuit> it's ridiculous
1794 2011-05-28 16:20:21 <luke-jr> WTF
1795 2011-05-28 16:20:35 <upb> you can download it from a ready made installed from ms öP
1796 2011-05-28 16:20:40 <upb> no _
1797 2011-05-28 16:20:44 <upb> ?
1798 2011-05-28 16:20:46 <phantomcircuit> yeah they tell everybody to use .NET but they actually use a custom vc++ runtime
1799 2011-05-28 16:20:49 <phantomcircuit> it's such bullshit
1800 2011-05-28 16:21:05 <upb> used to be vcredistxxx.exe
1801 2011-05-28 16:21:08 <BlueMatt> jaromil: from the bitcoin debian maintainer: "Regarding autotools: Please add AM_MAINTAINER_MODE to configure.ac - that is a great help for distributors like me!"
1802 2011-05-28 16:21:13 <BlueMatt> just thought Id forward that to you
1803 2011-05-28 16:21:23 Anderxander has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1804 2011-05-28 16:21:28 <phantomcircuit> jaromil, hello
1805 2011-05-28 16:21:33 <devrandom> BlueMatt: curious what is the issue with 32bit bitcoin on 64bit? seems to run when I tried it just now
1806 2011-05-28 16:21:42 <luke-jr> devrandom: then you have a 32-bit OS
1807 2011-05-28 16:21:43 <jaromil> phantomcircuit: i'm crying for attention on #freecoin BTW
1808 2011-05-28 16:21:46 <jaromil> BlueMatt: ACK
1809 2011-05-28 16:21:54 <devrandom> luke-jr: I don't
1810 2011-05-28 16:22:00 <luke-jr> devrandom: then it would'nt run
1811 2011-05-28 16:22:05 <devrandom> but I do have lib32 compat package install
1812 2011-05-28 16:22:12 <luke-jr> that means you have a 32-bit OS
1813 2011-05-28 16:22:21 upb has left ()
1814 2011-05-28 16:22:22 <devrandom> ia32-libs
1815 2011-05-28 16:22:27 <BlueMatt> devrandom: well I think it has worked out somewhat, but when I last tried it it was issues with bdb trying to load some 64-bit libs which killed it
1816 2011-05-28 16:22:27 <jaromil> BlueMatt: it is a typical flag that helps maintainers but BUGS developers
1817 2011-05-28 16:22:40 <sipa> what does it do?
1818 2011-05-28 16:22:42 <luke-jr> devrandom: it may be a hybrid 32+64 OS, but that is inclusive of 32-bit
1819 2011-05-28 16:22:46 <jaromil> it forces rebuild of all sources even if nothing changed
1820 2011-05-28 16:22:53 <jaromil> when you type make
1821 2011-05-28 16:22:54 <jaromil> AFAIK
1822 2011-05-28 16:22:55 <luke-jr> devrandom: and a waste of memory i might add
1823 2011-05-28 16:23:01 <devrandom> ubuntu has 32 bit compat
1824 2011-05-28 16:23:04 <BlueMatt> jaromil: but can it not be turned on/off at will?
1825 2011-05-28 16:23:04 <jaromil> so i think it should be optional
1826 2011-05-28 16:23:17 <jaromil> i'm not sure what's the state of the AM_ macro for that ATM
1827 2011-05-28 16:23:19 <luke-jr> jaromil: only with --enable-maintainer-mode?
1828 2011-05-28 16:23:19 <jaromil> lemme check
1829 2011-05-28 16:23:32 <jaromil> yea they should have made it optional
1830 2011-05-28 16:23:52 <jaromil> i just remember from the times it wasn't, this suggestion represented the little fart that debian developers leave in your codebase
1831 2011-05-28 16:24:41 <phantomcircuit> lol
1832 2011-05-28 16:24:50 <BlueMatt> lol
1833 2011-05-28 16:25:55 <jaromil> confirm, is optional, off by default. yes lets include it
1834 2011-05-28 16:26:22 <BlueMatt> sounds good to me
1835 2011-05-28 16:31:13 <thermal> Marf suggested a prompt on the first-run of the bitcoin client informing the user that it will take a while to download all of the blocks
1836 2011-05-28 16:31:22 <thermal> or on the final page of the install
1837 2011-05-28 16:31:29 <BlueMatt> many have suggested that
1838 2011-05-28 16:31:39 <BlueMatt> and it should be
1839 2011-05-28 16:31:52 <jgarzik> should be easy: if initialBlockDownload && !warnedInitialBlockDownload
1840 2011-05-28 16:32:11 <thermal> so, can i fork it, make the changes and then push it back?
1841 2011-05-28 16:32:23 <BlueMatt> sure
1842 2011-05-28 16:32:37 <jgarzik> thermal: s/push/send pull request/
1843 2011-05-28 16:32:47 <thermal> oops. yeah that :p
1844 2011-05-28 16:32:55 <thermal> still new to git
1845 2011-05-28 16:33:13 <luke-jr> IMO, someone should fix first-download too :p
1846 2011-05-28 16:33:20 mosimo has joined
1847 2011-05-28 16:33:27 <luke-jr> jgarzik: why not warn every first-download?
1848 2011-05-28 16:33:49 <jgarzik> warnedInitialBlockDownload is a C++ variable that is not persistent
1849 2011-05-28 16:33:52 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1850 2011-05-28 16:34:01 <luke-jr> i c
1851 2011-05-28 16:34:05 Ramokk has joined
1852 2011-05-28 16:34:19 <luke-jr> but yeah, there's no reason downloading the block chain from localhost should take a day
1853 2011-05-28 16:35:31 <thermal> there will come a point when downloading the entire block chain will no longer be feasible
1854 2011-05-28 16:36:23 <thermal> hmm. who, then, will maintain the integrity of the entire block chain?
1855 2011-05-28 16:36:27 <thermal> the block masters?
1856 2011-05-28 16:37:33 <WakiMiko> im a block master
1857 2011-05-28 16:37:36 <WakiMiko> i live in a lego castle
1858 2011-05-28 16:37:38 <thermal> bags not being a block master
1859 2011-05-28 16:38:09 <thermal> WakiMiko: were you just playing sc2? your nick looks really familiar :p
1860 2011-05-28 16:38:46 <WakiMiko> nope, i dont play sc2
1861 2011-05-28 16:39:09 <Cusipzzz> thought he was GSL :)
1862 2011-05-28 16:39:39 <luke-jr> thermal: the banks
1863 2011-05-28 16:39:42 broker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1864 2011-05-28 16:39:54 <WakiMiko> whats that now
1865 2011-05-28 16:40:18 <jaromil> made https://github.com/jaromil/bitcoin/commit/4dbc9e529cfa952647b6fd73c8efb56059be85cc
1866 2011-05-28 16:40:30 <jaromil> will rebase it inside. maintainer mode included
1867 2011-05-28 16:40:56 johnnympereira5 has joined
1868 2011-05-28 16:41:03 <jaromil> squashed
1869 2011-05-28 16:44:02 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1870 2011-05-28 16:45:12 tcoppi has joined
1871 2011-05-28 16:45:31 * luke-jr likes how Bazaar doesn't require as much rebasing nonsense
1872 2011-05-28 16:46:34 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Luke Dashjr * r6d9389367104 gentoo/net-p2p/ (16 files in 3 dirs): net-p2p/bitcoind and net-p2p/wxbitcoin: pick best boost headers/libraries to use regardless of eselected versions (which might not be compatible) http://tinyurl.com/42nxftd
1873 2011-05-28 16:46:39 <jaromil> i prefer git
1874 2011-05-28 16:46:51 <luke-jr> they both have their features ;)
1875 2011-05-28 16:46:57 <jaromil> actually i don't even contribute to projects that aren't in git
1876 2011-05-28 16:47:04 <sipa> <vcs-flamewar-mode>
1877 2011-05-28 16:47:32 <luke-jr> really, git doesn't even require more rebasing
1878 2011-05-28 16:47:34 <luke-jr> just the git *users*
1879 2011-05-28 16:47:44 * jaromil wears the Emacs Full Plate Armor
1880 2011-05-28 16:47:47 <luke-jr> probably because git doesn't have as nice defaults
1881 2011-05-28 16:48:09 <luke-jr> --first-parent is Bazaar's default for log
1882 2011-05-28 16:48:17 <jaromil> well i guess bzr could be well emulated with a wrapper on top of git
1883 2011-05-28 16:48:25 <luke-jr> which makes rebasing less needed
1884 2011-05-28 16:48:39 <luke-jr> jaromil: only to an extent
1885 2011-05-28 16:48:48 <luke-jr> git lacks some real functionality like renames too :p
1886 2011-05-28 16:49:05 <luke-jr> but in any case, bzr can branch a git repo just fine
1887 2011-05-28 16:50:09 * jaromil wields a two-hands ZSH giant cutlass
1888 2011-05-28 16:50:12 <devrandom> okay, compiling with -O0 is deterministic... ;)
1889 2011-05-28 16:50:33 <devrandom> time for -O1... binary walk through gcc flags
1890 2011-05-28 16:50:35 Ramokk_ has joined
1891 2011-05-28 16:50:37 <jaromil> bzr is not written in C.
1892 2011-05-28 16:50:41 Ramokk has quit (Disconnected by services)
1893 2011-05-28 16:50:43 Ramokk_ is now known as Ramokk
1894 2011-05-28 16:51:05 <luke-jr> jaromil: that's its biggest flaw :D
1895 2011-05-28 16:51:30 <sipa> what is it written in?
1896 2011-05-28 16:51:38 * jaromil suddenly starts running direction luke-jr roteating the cutlass above his head
1897 2011-05-28 16:51:56 <luke-jr> sipa: Python
1898 2011-05-28 16:52:14 * luke-jr blinks as jaromil realizes luke-jr is merely a figment of his imagination
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1902 2011-05-28 16:52:59 * jaromil barely controls the inerrtia of his charge in full plate armor and stops a few meters after passing through the image of luke-jr
1903 2011-05-28 16:53:12 <jaromil> sgrunt
1904 2011-05-28 16:53:42 <EvanR> im setting up bitcoind for a website
1905 2011-05-28 16:53:45 <EvanR> which version do i want?
1906 2011-05-28 16:53:55 <EvanR> MagicalTux said one of the versions he had was unstable
1907 2011-05-28 16:54:42 maikmerten has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1908 2011-05-28 16:54:51 <sipa> will it do transactions, or is it just for monitoring the block chain?
1909 2011-05-28 16:54:59 <EvanR> transactions
1910 2011-05-28 16:55:21 agent-x has joined
1911 2011-05-28 16:55:58 <EvanR> 0.3.21?
1912 2011-05-28 16:56:10 <sipa> i'd just default with the latest
1913 2011-05-28 16:57:22 <luke-jr> EvanR: 0.3.21 is what MT said was unstable
1914 2011-05-28 16:57:45 <EvanR> mmm
1915 2011-05-28 16:57:52 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1917 2011-05-28 16:59:04 <EvanR> 0.3.22 ?
1918 2011-05-28 16:59:36 <BlueMatt> dont think any kind of such bug would have been fixed...did he say what was unstable about it?
1919 2011-05-28 16:59:55 <EvanR> well, mtgox stopped working
1920 2011-05-28 17:00:00 <EvanR> so im getting bitcoind crashed
1921 2011-05-28 17:00:11 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jgarzik would you consider it to be linking, to add a "database" to pushpoold that merely connected to a local socket and sent JSON share info? (ie, my other end wouldn't be GPL necessarily)
1922 2011-05-28 17:00:11 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
1923 2011-05-28 17:00:31 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: he said it crashed, possibly related to packet loss
1924 2011-05-28 17:00:32 <EvanR> ill reduce the version number
1925 2011-05-28 17:01:03 <luke-jr> EvanR: older versions have the subcent change bug ;)
1926 2011-05-28 17:01:38 <EvanR> what bug is that
1927 2011-05-28 17:01:51 <luke-jr> where it discards subcent portions behind your back
1928 2011-05-28 17:02:03 <EvanR> discards?
1929 2011-05-28 17:02:07 darbsllim has joined
1930 2011-05-28 17:02:23 <EvanR> gives them back to people?
1931 2011-05-28 17:02:40 <luke-jr> to miners
1932 2011-05-28 17:02:57 <luke-jr> basically it makes them a fee without your permission
1933 2011-05-28 17:02:59 <sipa> recent versions have had quite some improvements and bug-fixes, but almost no fixes for crashing
1934 2011-05-28 17:03:03 <luke-jr> even when a fee isn't needed
1935 2011-05-28 17:03:24 <sipa> there was one i remember, where it crashes when exiting sometimes
1936 2011-05-28 17:03:25 Kurtov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1937 2011-05-28 17:03:30 <BlueMatt> probably a lockup, for that, we really just need to generally clean, like sipa's walletclass
1938 2011-05-28 17:03:36 <sipa> so that isn'the the problem
1939 2011-05-28 17:03:39 <EvanR> not crashing is more valuable to me than < .01
1940 2011-05-28 17:03:44 <luke-jr> BlueMatt: no, it was a segfault
1941 2011-05-28 17:03:48 <BlueMatt> oh
1942 2011-05-28 17:04:01 Kurtov has joined
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1944 2011-05-28 17:04:19 _Maru_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1945 2011-05-28 17:04:56 <BlueMatt> well for that we need to move towards -Wall
1946 2011-05-28 17:04:58 zirpu has joined
1947 2011-05-28 17:05:26 <EvanR> MagicalTux: which version of bitcoin do you use now
1948 2011-05-28 17:05:39 <EvanR> because thats what im going to use ;)
1949 2011-05-28 17:06:55 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1950 2011-05-28 17:07:19 <sipa> ok, walletclass is at least able to receive payments now
1951 2011-05-28 17:07:27 <sipa> sending doesn't work yet :)
1952 2011-05-28 17:07:29 <thermal> here's an idea: rather than bundling bitcoin's functionality in with the client... have it run as a separate service that the client communicates with (via tcp/ip perhaps?)
1953 2011-05-28 17:07:51 <sipa> thermal: that's what spesmilo does
1954 2011-05-28 17:08:02 <thermal> ah
1955 2011-05-28 17:08:02 <sipa> use the json-rpc interface to communicate with bitcoind
1956 2011-05-28 17:08:08 <sipa> and provide a gui based on that
1957 2011-05-28 17:08:13 <thermal> that's awesome! :D
1958 2011-05-28 17:08:43 marlowe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1959 2011-05-28 17:08:43 <thermal> props to whoever decided on that.. especially json-rpc
1960 2011-05-28 17:09:12 <devrandom> anybody know how to turn on terminal bell under ubuntu / gnome?
1961 2011-05-28 17:09:20 <thermal> i was considering making an alternate client
1962 2011-05-28 17:09:22 <devrandom> I have it enabled in my gnome-terminal profile
1963 2011-05-28 17:09:33 <thermal> this makes it a *lot* easier :)
1964 2011-05-28 17:10:06 marlowe has joined
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1967 2011-05-28 17:12:02 sanity has joined
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1969 2011-05-28 17:16:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: did a succesfull send with walletclass :)
1970 2011-05-28 17:18:59 bitanarchy has joined
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1972 2011-05-28 17:20:16 draag has joined
1973 2011-05-28 17:20:27 <bitanarchy> how do i list the keypool keys that are in the wallet using bitcointools?
1974 2011-05-28 17:21:42 draaglom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1975 2011-05-28 17:21:54 kiba has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1976 2011-05-28 17:22:48 orbiting has joined
1977 2011-05-28 17:22:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice...how close is it to being 100%?
1978 2011-05-28 17:23:18 orbiting_ has joined
1979 2011-05-28 17:23:20 <jaromil> are we still using libdb 4.7 by default?
1980 2011-05-28 17:23:21 orbiting_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1981 2011-05-28 17:23:27 <jaromil> i'm noticing something really strange
1982 2011-05-28 17:23:29 <BlueMatt> jaromil: yes, wont at 0.4.0
1983 2011-05-28 17:23:37 <BlueMatt> we will change to 4.8 at 0.4.0
1984 2011-05-28 17:23:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: no known bugs anymore, but i have little doubt there are some left
1985 2011-05-28 17:23:54 orbiting has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1986 2011-05-28 17:23:54 <jaromil> somehow even forcing linking to 0.4.7 in ubuntu 11.04
1987 2011-05-28 17:24:11 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1988 2011-05-28 17:24:13 <jaromil> ends up with a binary linked to 0.4.8
1989 2011-05-28 17:24:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice, cant wait for merge of that when 0.3.22 comes out then
1990 2011-05-28 17:24:22 <jaromil> i've debugged down to gcc -v
1991 2011-05-28 17:24:31 <jaromil> and i can't understand how that comes out
1992 2011-05-28 17:24:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: i did a realnet tx from and to mtgox with it
1993 2011-05-28 17:24:46 orbiting has joined
1994 2011-05-28 17:24:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice, g2g see yall later
1995 2011-05-28 17:24:58 <jaromil> bye
1996 2011-05-28 17:25:07 <sipa> cya
1997 2011-05-28 17:25:11 orbiting has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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2019 2011-05-28 17:55:15 <johndoe0711> #bitcoin-otc
2020 2011-05-28 17:55:27 <johndoe0711> ⦠/join ⦠;)
2021 2011-05-28 17:55:39 <johndoe0711> forgot that ..
2022 2011-05-28 17:56:24 mmoya has joined
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2026 2011-05-28 18:00:32 <bitanarchy> dbdump.py --transaction does not show any input and output addresses
2027 2011-05-28 18:03:04 <bitanarchy> i am investigating a problem with my wallet... and i want to compare the wallet transaction addresses with the ones in blockexplorer...
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2043 2011-05-28 18:29:29 diki has joined
2044 2011-05-28 18:29:43 <diki> more and more pools are popping up
2045 2011-05-28 18:29:50 <diki> which is good
2046 2011-05-28 18:30:18 glicth-mod has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2047 2011-05-28 18:30:24 johndoe0711 has joined
2048 2011-05-28 18:30:25 <diki> How can i best simulate 1000 getworks/s?
2049 2011-05-28 18:30:30 tcoppi has joined
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2052 2011-05-28 18:35:05 <topi`_> luke-jr: do you have an explanation why my address was given 0.001 btc as part of Generated tx from your pool, whereas balances.json shows that I have 0.157 and oldest is 5/8 and newest 5/27
2053 2011-05-28 18:35:33 <topi`_> so this is a very odd Generation, unless i have misunderstood the way Eligius works
2054 2011-05-28 18:35:49 <luke-jr> topi`_: the only way that happens is if you earned 0.001 BTC a week ago on one of the pools, and haven't mined on it since
2055 2011-05-28 18:35:56 sethsethseth____ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2056 2011-05-28 18:35:57 <luke-jr> perhaps the other pool than the one you're using now
2057 2011-05-28 18:36:00 sethsethseth____ has joined
2058 2011-05-28 18:36:50 sanity_ has joined
2059 2011-05-28 18:37:54 <topi`_> did you change the pool URL?
2060 2011-05-28 18:38:32 sanity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2061 2011-05-28 18:39:44 mosimo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2062 2011-05-28 18:40:03 <topi`_> the block generated is this: http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000001f9f3012d9d965e4a08b23657c4807016818a043f96a72e78598
2063 2011-05-28 18:40:14 <topi`_> I see lots of other sub-0.01 btc payments as well...
2064 2011-05-28 18:42:09 <topi`_> currently i'm setting "pool.bitcoin.dashjr.org" as the host and using port 8337
2065 2011-05-28 18:43:34 zq_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2067 2011-05-28 18:45:12 xxxxxxx is now known as xxxxxxx`brb
2068 2011-05-28 18:45:24 johndoe0711 is now known as Johndoe0711
2069 2011-05-28 18:46:08 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2070 2011-05-28 18:46:38 <bitanarchy> what is the difference between a public key and a bitcoin address?
2071 2011-05-28 18:48:16 Johndoe0711 is now known as johndoe0711
2072 2011-05-28 18:49:44 xxxxxxx`brb is now known as xxxxxxx
2073 2011-05-28 18:50:06 <jgarzik> bitanarchy: a bitcoin address is a hash of a public key
2074 2011-05-28 18:50:51 Lambdanaut has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2075 2011-05-28 18:51:01 <bitanarchy> jgarzik: ah, so if you want to send to a bc address you first have to scan the blockchain to find the corresponding pub key to the hash?
2076 2011-05-28 18:51:27 <topi`_> bit, not really, but the payment is claimable by anyone whose pubkey has that hash...
2077 2011-05-28 18:51:36 darbsllim has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2079 2011-05-28 18:53:04 <bitanarchy> jgarzik: dbdump.py --wallet-tx does not print any bitcoin addresses.... how do i see see the addresses that correspond to the transactions in the wallet
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2089 2011-05-28 19:08:36 <diki> lol the chat is like a slideshow for me
2090 2011-05-28 19:11:43 ezl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2097 2011-05-28 19:18:17 <Akiron_> ls
2098 2011-05-28 19:18:28 <Akiron_> haha, muscle memory
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2100 2011-05-28 19:18:49 <sipa> bitanarchy: what does it show you?
2101 2011-05-28 19:22:09 <bitanarchy> sipa: It shows me a part of the public key that is a hex number.... but bc addresses are alphanr strings...
2102 2011-05-28 19:22:52 <sipa> bitanarchy: you'll have to understand how signature and pubkey scripts work in bitcoin
2103 2011-05-28 19:23:53 <bitanarchy> sipa: the bctools code uses a functions called ...to_bc_address()... but it can be a bc address obviously
2104 2011-05-28 19:24:03 <bitanarchy> can't
2105 2011-05-28 19:24:04 <sipa> hmmm ok
2106 2011-05-28 19:24:13 <sipa> is it a 20-byte string?
2107 2011-05-28 19:24:24 <sipa> or 40 character hex string
2108 2011-05-28 19:24:43 <bitanarchy> 5fed...8c07
2109 2011-05-28 19:25:04 <bitanarchy> that's not a bc address
2110 2011-05-28 19:25:06 <sipa> that's an abbreviation, it seems
2111 2011-05-28 19:25:23 <sipa> isn't there some function to get it to show everything
2112 2011-05-28 19:25:40 <bitanarchy> I didnt find out
2113 2011-05-28 19:28:48 hereforfun has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2114 2011-05-28 19:33:08 xxxxxxx is now known as x5x
2115 2011-05-28 19:34:06 <luke-jr> ;;bc,stats
2116 2011-05-28 19:34:07 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127354 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1669 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 19 hours, 3 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 516246.87494747
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2119 2011-05-28 19:36:06 <diki> network hashrate sure is dropping
2120 2011-05-28 19:38:07 <gmaxwell> diki: yep.
2121 2011-05-28 19:38:16 <x5x> yea the attackers finished their attack
2122 2011-05-28 19:39:02 <bitanarchy> what kind of attack?
2123 2011-05-28 19:40:26 <diki> i am sure it was joke
2124 2011-05-28 19:40:36 <x5x> the one that requires 15-20% of the network
2125 2011-05-28 19:41:23 <jrmithdobbs> http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/232
2126 2011-05-28 19:41:29 <bd_> The only "attack" I can think of that you can pull off with 20% is pumping up the difficulty to hurt miners...
2127 2011-05-28 19:41:35 <jrmithdobbs> thoughts on consequences for bitcoin?
2128 2011-05-28 19:41:54 <diki> World IPv6 Day is coming soon
2129 2011-05-28 19:41:57 <jrmithdobbs> (openssl timing against again ecdsa)
2130 2011-05-28 19:41:57 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2131 2011-05-28 19:41:59 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I don't think it's at all relevantâ you can't force the client to do signatures on demand at low latency.
2132 2011-05-28 19:42:16 <jrmithdobbs> s/against again/attack against/
2133 2011-05-28 19:42:21 <bd_> diki: yep. Test your stack here: ipv6eyechart.ripe.net
2134 2011-05-28 19:42:29 <x5x> bd_, some dood just explained an attack the other day, which allows u to double spend to a specific node within a short window of time with 10-20% of the netowrk
2135 2011-05-28 19:42:30 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: my interpretation as well
2136 2011-05-28 19:42:32 <gmaxwell> (the only time bitcoin signs is when you make a payment)
2137 2011-05-28 19:42:39 <diki> let's hope google keep their promise
2138 2011-05-28 19:42:58 <bd_> x5x: really? even after confirmation?
2139 2011-05-28 19:43:05 <gmaxwell> x5x: There didn't appear to be a sudden increase in hash power in any case.
2140 2011-05-28 19:43:23 <x5x> gmaxwell, yea i was jk i higly doubt anyone was actually attacking
2141 2011-05-28 19:43:35 <x5x> itd take a long time for ppl to cutally successfully implement that attack anyway
2142 2011-05-28 19:43:59 <diki> works like a charm bd_
2143 2011-05-28 19:44:06 <bitanarchy> If the local time on your computer is wrong, can this dammage or otherwise compromise bc transactions?
2144 2011-05-28 19:44:08 <x5x> bd_, http://culubas.blogspot.com/2011/05/timejacking-bitcoin_802.html
2145 2011-05-28 19:44:09 <gmaxwell> bd_: confirmation isn't really a binary state. The more confirmations a TX has the harder it is to reverse and double spend it.
2146 2011-05-28 19:44:23 <bd_> gmaxwell: Indeed. I'm wonder how many confirmations this attack could reverse through
2147 2011-05-28 19:44:29 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: if your time is too wrong bitcoin will refuse to run.
2148 2011-05-28 19:45:05 <bitanarchy> gmaxwell: bitcoin client showed me a warning on a knoppix usb, that did not have ntp installed
2149 2011-05-28 19:45:17 <x5x> wewt ,got my first donation
2150 2011-05-28 19:45:24 <x5x> 2-3 days of work for 1$ yea!
2151 2011-05-28 19:45:45 <sipa> what did you work on?
2152 2011-05-28 19:45:49 <gmaxwell> bd_: it required isolating a victim _and_ the biggest miners from the rest of the network. And the attack could last as long as you could keep that up and outpace the remaining part of the network.
2153 2011-05-28 19:45:57 <x5x> sipa, http://109.123.116.242/orders
2154 2011-05-28 19:47:03 <gmaxwell> bd_: if you have that much network control there are probably better attacks available to you.
2155 2011-05-28 19:47:42 <gmaxwell> bd_: like completely isolate the victim and feed him a bogus view of the network that includes a crazy alternative blockchain you're mining for them.
2156 2011-05-28 19:47:59 <gmaxwell> bd_: though they'll get confirmations pretty slowly if you're only 25% of the network's hashpower.
2157 2011-05-28 19:48:39 <diki> x5x can you make a legend?
2158 2011-05-28 19:48:50 <x5x> diki, what would u want on the legend ?
2159 2011-05-28 19:48:54 <sipa> x5x: nice!
2160 2011-05-28 19:49:04 <diki> color 1 = something, color 2 = other something
2161 2011-05-28 19:49:14 <x5x> u cant tell from that which are bid and which are asks ?
2162 2011-05-28 19:49:21 <gmaxwell> (The attack we discussed was just an improvement over that that could let you do it even if you can't completely isolate anyone, but if you could instead do a more limited attack against more nodes)
2163 2011-05-28 19:49:39 <diki> x5x: there are some insane large sums there, so no
2164 2011-05-28 19:50:05 Twoheaded has joined
2165 2011-05-28 19:50:11 <luke-jr> ;;later tell jgarzik also, is there any reason to check known/unknown work before hashing? would be nice to accept a valid block if it happens to occur after a pushpoold restart ;)
2166 2011-05-28 19:50:11 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
2167 2011-05-28 19:50:40 <x5x> diki, did u read the help text ?
2168 2011-05-28 19:51:04 eao has joined
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2171 2011-05-28 19:53:30 yrral111 has joined
2172 2011-05-28 19:54:22 <diki> lol
2173 2011-05-28 19:54:30 <yrral111> how do you estimate mhash based on shares/second and difficulty?
2174 2011-05-28 19:54:37 <diki> Dude, that thing is not even remotely seeable on my 1080p monitor
2175 2011-05-28 19:54:47 <diki> let alone someone with insanely high resolutions
2176 2011-05-28 19:55:15 eao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2177 2011-05-28 19:55:23 <raijin> wouldnt that setup slow your mining?
2178 2011-05-28 19:55:54 <jrmithdobbs> tcatm / jgarzik / sipa: do generation blocks get signed?
2179 2011-05-28 19:56:06 <sipa> blocks are not signed
2180 2011-05-28 19:56:18 <jrmithdobbs> is the generation txn signed though?
2181 2011-05-28 19:56:22 <yrral111> and also, for all the pools, are shares equivalent? Like what fraction of current difficulty is a share equal to? I coudn't find any documentation on what the hash target is for shares
2182 2011-05-28 19:56:26 <sipa> no
2183 2011-05-28 19:56:28 Lachesis has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2184 2011-05-28 19:56:32 <sipa> what is there to sign?
2185 2011-05-28 19:56:35 <sipa> it has no inputs
2186 2011-05-28 19:56:41 <jrmithdobbs> just confirming.
2187 2011-05-28 19:57:15 <jrmithdobbs> good the ssl ecdsa issue shouldn't be an issue without some severe outisde compromise beforehand then
2188 2011-05-28 19:57:24 <sipa> indeed
2189 2011-05-28 19:57:27 <jrmithdobbs> *shouldn't be an issue for bitcoin
2190 2011-05-28 19:57:28 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2191 2011-05-28 19:57:34 <sipa> ah, that was your question about
2192 2011-05-28 19:57:49 <sipa> no, during mining the only often-performed operation is sha256 hashing, actually
2193 2011-05-28 19:58:26 <jrmithdobbs> ya you see where i was going
2194 2011-05-28 19:58:32 <jrmithdobbs> was the only feasible issue i could think of
2195 2011-05-28 19:58:33 <jrmithdobbs> ;P
2196 2011-05-28 19:59:01 <raijin> jrmithdobbs: i broke my openssl here addressing ecdsa.h issue
2197 2011-05-28 19:59:08 <raijin> :(
2198 2011-05-28 19:59:17 <bitanarchy> does anyone know how to investigate wallets with bitcointools?
2199 2011-05-28 19:59:36 <raijin> won't a text reader work?
2200 2011-05-28 20:00:14 <jrmithdobbs> there's some other attack vectors but they'd all require access to the local machine with the wallet anyways, in which case you've got a much better chance through much easier to exploit issues unrelated to bitcoin ;P
2201 2011-05-28 20:00:19 <bitanarchy> i want to compare the bc addresses of a tx with the ones in blockexplorer
2202 2011-05-28 20:00:32 <raijin> /home/raijin/.bitcoin/wallet.dat: Berkeley DB (Btree, version 9, native byte-order)
2203 2011-05-28 20:00:37 <raijin> guess not
2204 2011-05-28 20:00:52 <jrmithdobbs> raijin: it can be dumped to plaintext with the bdb tools
2205 2011-05-28 20:00:58 vigilyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2206 2011-05-28 20:00:59 <jrmithdobbs> pretty simply
2207 2011-05-28 20:01:02 <raijin> thx
2208 2011-05-28 20:02:01 sanity_ has joined
2209 2011-05-28 20:02:53 sanity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2211 2011-05-28 20:03:23 <phantomcircuit> slush, your offer for tahoe-lafs still stand?
2212 2011-05-28 20:04:06 <x5x> diki, what's not seeable ?
2213 2011-05-28 20:04:06 <slush> well, 100 BTC is pretty high
2214 2011-05-28 20:04:11 e0s_ has joined
2215 2011-05-28 20:04:32 <slush> why do you ask?
2216 2011-05-28 20:04:39 <x5x> diki, I'm running at "1080p" 1920x1080
2217 2011-05-28 20:04:51 <x5x> altho on a 22" not a laptop 17"
2218 2011-05-28 20:05:47 <phantomcircuit> slush, i was interested in implementing it, but only if the existing bounties are reupped so to speak
2219 2011-05-28 20:05:57 <phantomcircuit> slush, since their relative values have massively increased
2220 2011-05-28 20:06:12 <luke-jr> is the output script checked before a txn is accepted by clients?
2221 2011-05-28 20:06:20 <slush> Yes, in time first post, it was ~30 USD
2222 2011-05-28 20:06:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you merge the openssl-1.0.0d and rpc-ssl pull (which was already in the build of rc5, but that is just the pull of it)
2223 2011-05-28 20:06:33 tcoppi has joined
2224 2011-05-28 20:06:34 <slush> now it is around 800
2225 2011-05-28 20:06:55 <luke-jr> ie, could a transaction have gibberish in its output script, and still be part of a valid block?
2226 2011-05-28 20:07:26 <phantomcircuit> slush, yeah that's why i ask
2227 2011-05-28 20:07:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Pieter Wuille master * r5fecb27 / (doc/build-msw.txt share/setup.nsi src/makefile.mingw):
2228 2011-05-28 20:07:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Merge pull request #278 from TheBlueMatt/win32ssl
2229 2011-05-28 20:07:42 <CIA-103> bitcoin: Update to openssl-1.0.0d and enable RPC-SSL on Win32 - http://bit.ly/lKttSy
2230 2011-05-28 20:07:48 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, no it cant, every tx in a block must be valid or else the mainline will reject it
2231 2011-05-28 20:07:50 <BlueMatt> thanks
2232 2011-05-28 20:08:17 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but is the tx valid even with a gibberish output script?
2233 2011-05-28 20:08:19 <diki> x5x, choose the words you use widely
2234 2011-05-28 20:08:25 <diki> *wisely
2235 2011-05-28 20:08:29 <slush> ok, 800USD is definitely too high :). I'll tell kiba to change it to 40 BTC, which is still much higher than original pledge (in USD equivalent)
2236 2011-05-28 20:08:29 <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: since it doesn't execute until someone tries to *spend* it
2237 2011-05-28 20:08:31 <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, yes
2238 2011-05-28 20:08:48 <sipa> luke-jr: the IsStandard() is applied
2239 2011-05-28 20:08:54 <x5x> diki, what are you talking about ?
2240 2011-05-28 20:08:56 <diki> I also use a 22' monitor FYI
2241 2011-05-28 20:09:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is it?
2242 2011-05-28 20:09:05 <luke-jr> sipa: no, it isn't.
2243 2011-05-28 20:09:09 <luke-jr> sipa: not once it's in a block
2244 2011-05-28 20:09:10 <diki> x5x: that was sarcasm in your message
2245 2011-05-28 20:09:14 <diki> stating that i am on a laptop
2246 2011-05-28 20:09:21 <x5x> oh
2247 2011-05-28 20:09:23 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no it's not, IsStandard only applied to the input script
2248 2011-05-28 20:09:33 <x5x> which part was sarcasm ?
2249 2011-05-28 20:09:35 <phantomcircuit> afaict there isn't an IsStandard for output scripts
2250 2011-05-28 20:09:35 <luke-jr> IsStandard isn't applied at all, once it's in a block
2251 2011-05-28 20:09:41 <diki> altho on a 22" not a laptop 17"
2252 2011-05-28 20:09:45 <diki> this part ^^
2253 2011-05-28 20:09:50 <x5x> that wasnt sarcasm
2254 2011-05-28 20:09:57 <x5x> i was telling u waht dpi im at
2255 2011-05-28 20:09:57 <diki> sure did seem like that to me
2256 2011-05-28 20:10:08 <x5x> cuz dpi on 17" 1920x1080 is higher than on a 22" of same res
2257 2011-05-28 20:10:16 <sipa> sorry, i though you were talking about accepting to be in a block
2258 2011-05-28 20:10:18 Stabaho has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2259 2011-05-28 20:10:33 <diki> Still, the Help block is small
2260 2011-05-28 20:10:38 <diki> I never even noticed it
2261 2011-05-28 20:10:38 <slush> phantomcircuit: ok, I offer 40 BTC for that.
2262 2011-05-28 20:10:54 <x5x> well its supposed to be kinda not noticeable, no one wnats to stare ata big help link
2263 2011-05-28 20:11:28 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2265 2011-05-28 20:12:07 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #37: ABORTED in 4 min 13 sec: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/37/
2266 2011-05-28 20:12:08 <BlueMattBot> matt: Update to openssl-1.0.0d and enable RPC-SSL on Win32
2267 2011-05-28 20:12:14 Lachesis has joined
2268 2011-05-28 20:12:19 <BlueMatt> false positive-build script failure
2269 2011-05-28 20:12:46 krekbwoy has joined
2270 2011-05-28 20:13:02 eao has joined
2271 2011-05-28 20:13:57 <diki> x5x: but then, people will ask you the same thing like i did
2272 2011-05-28 20:14:20 <sipa> phantomcircuit: IsStandard is only defined for output scripts, but it is not done for transactions in a block, anything is allowed there
2273 2011-05-28 20:14:24 sanity_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2276 2011-05-28 20:15:01 <forrestv> x5x, i made something similar - http://u.forre.st/mtgox_depth.html - but no donations as of yet
2277 2011-05-28 20:15:13 <phantomcircuit> sipa, uh im prettu sure it's only defined for input scripts, the opcodes it uses are only found in input scripts, specifically OP_CHECKSIG
2278 2011-05-28 20:15:15 johndoe0711 has joined
2279 2011-05-28 20:15:50 <x5x> forrestv, u make anything off those ads ? :P
2280 2011-05-28 20:16:03 <diki> forrestv: maybe because it looks like the 90s?
2281 2011-05-28 20:16:14 <diki> All it needs is those under construction gifs
2282 2011-05-28 20:16:27 <x5x> lawl
2283 2011-05-28 20:16:41 <sipa> phantomcircuit: sure you're not mixing things up? input scripts only push data (like signatures and pubkeys ) on the stack
2284 2011-05-28 20:16:48 <forrestv> what exactly looks old about it? black background?
2285 2011-05-28 20:16:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: which are verified by the corresponding output script
2286 2011-05-28 20:16:55 <diki> Background, font
2287 2011-05-28 20:17:07 <x5x> forrestv, man if you can't tell that...
2288 2011-05-28 20:17:17 <x5x> forrestv, browse the web much ?
2289 2011-05-28 20:17:33 <forrestv> yes? the font is the standard unstyled font
2290 2011-05-28 20:17:33 sanity is now known as sanity_3
2291 2011-05-28 20:17:52 sanity_3 is now known as sanity
2292 2011-05-28 20:18:16 <diki> Imagine how it renders under XP
2293 2011-05-28 20:18:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, oh yeah i do lol
2294 2011-05-28 20:18:33 <phantomcircuit> sigh
2295 2011-05-28 20:18:54 <diki> no capital letters either
2296 2011-05-28 20:19:06 <diki> but you remembered adding them for donation
2297 2011-05-28 20:19:13 <forrestv> x5x, there's also the fact that your page does nothing in my browser
2298 2011-05-28 20:19:16 <forrestv> that might be an issue.
2299 2011-05-28 20:19:23 <x5x> forrestv, ah :) use chrome or safari
2300 2011-05-28 20:19:30 <gmaxwell> So why does the script used in the genrate TX disclose a public key? Why isn't it like normal sends that only use an address?
2301 2011-05-28 20:19:30 <x5x> forrestv, or enable webscokets on ff4
2302 2011-05-28 20:19:44 Lachesis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2303 2011-05-28 20:20:26 <diki> although i am puzzled as to why adblock plus doesnt remove your adds
2304 2011-05-28 20:20:28 <diki> *ads
2305 2011-05-28 20:20:36 <diki> seems like google is cheaping out again
2306 2011-05-28 20:20:39 <x5x> diki, i was tyinking hte same thing
2307 2011-05-28 20:20:40 <forrestv> gmaxwell, the input scripts to claim it are smaller, so less transaction fees
2308 2011-05-28 20:21:49 <forrestv> diki, i don't know; try clicking them
2309 2011-05-28 20:21:50 <forrestv> <.<
2310 2011-05-28 20:22:08 <x5x> i wonder how ads do on bitcoin related sites
2311 2011-05-28 20:22:41 <x5x> probly higher paying cuz its finance related stuff, but then do bitcoin ppl ever click ads ?
2312 2011-05-28 20:22:55 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2313 2011-05-28 20:23:23 <diki> i bet you just checked google adsense if you got any monAy for the donay
2314 2011-05-28 20:23:57 Stabaho has left ()
2315 2011-05-28 20:24:15 <phantomcircuit> x5x, google has a keywords tool
2316 2011-05-28 20:24:38 <gmaxwell> forrestv: Makes me a little sad: otherwise if you don't reuse an address bitcoin has a degree of resistance to attacks on ecdsa because the public keys aren't disclosed until right before they're no longer relevant.
2317 2011-05-28 20:25:17 <diki> i have about 30 dollars in my adsense account
2318 2011-05-28 20:25:21 <diki> been there for like 2 years now
2319 2011-05-28 20:26:15 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2320 2011-05-28 20:26:15 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #38: FIXED in 13 min: http://www.bluematt.me/jenkins/job/Bitcoin/38/
2321 2011-05-28 20:26:20 <diki> lol
2322 2011-05-28 20:26:30 <diki> bluemattboY
2323 2011-05-28 20:26:33 <BlueMatt> thats one happy bot
2324 2011-05-28 20:27:03 <diki> Should've been BlueMatt-Junior though
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2327 2011-05-28 20:28:30 <krekbwoy> what is the message sent when a client tries to add a new block to the block chain?
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2330 2011-05-28 20:31:57 <forrestv> also, i'm sure that that behavior could be changed
2331 2011-05-28 20:32:05 <forrestv> krekbwoy, 'inv'
2332 2011-05-28 20:33:06 <krekbwoy> ah, just found it on the wiki aswell, thanks :)
2333 2011-05-28 20:34:14 fimp has joined
2334 2011-05-28 20:34:52 <sipa> why not immediately send a block instead of an inv, when you generated a block yourself?
2335 2011-05-28 20:36:53 Xenland has joined
2336 2011-05-28 20:41:00 <dvheumen> hi, I was wondering: is there a way to get the bitcoin network information as shown on http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ using the json-rpc api, because I can't quite seem to find the correct call
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2339 2011-05-28 20:44:07 <midnightmagic> no, the rpc api is woefully limited. those guys are all running custom software.
2340 2011-05-28 20:44:19 diki has quit ()
2341 2011-05-28 20:44:42 <dvheumen> okay, thanks
2342 2011-05-28 20:44:59 <midnightmagic> google for the bitcoin getblock patch
2343 2011-05-28 20:45:08 <midnightmagic> i think jgarzik wrote it.
2344 2011-05-28 20:46:14 <dvheumen> okay, so that's a patch for the original bitcoin client
2345 2011-05-28 20:46:22 sethsethseth____ has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
2346 2011-05-28 20:46:25 <forrestv> sipa, i've wondered that too
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2350 2011-05-28 20:49:48 <krekbwoy> int the 'inv' message only the block hash is included right?
2351 2011-05-28 20:50:02 <krekbwoy> the new block hash
2352 2011-05-28 20:50:27 <krekbwoy> and then the peers request more information about that block through getdata if it is valid?
2353 2011-05-28 20:50:49 <forrestv> krekbwoy, yes
2354 2011-05-28 20:51:09 <krekbwoy> and then the "blockfinding client" return a block message
2355 2011-05-28 20:51:23 tcoppi has joined
2356 2011-05-28 20:51:36 <forrestv> yep
2357 2011-05-28 20:51:47 <forrestv> i think directly sending a 'block' message would work too
2358 2011-05-28 20:52:06 <krekbwoy> with the 'inv' message
2359 2011-05-28 20:52:08 <krekbwoy> ?
2360 2011-05-28 20:52:25 <forrestv> sending it alone should work...
2361 2011-05-28 20:52:37 <forrestv> but 'inv' and immediately 'block' would definitely work
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2363 2011-05-28 20:53:27 <krekbwoy> ok so the 'block' message is not just for requesting blocks, it could be used to 'push' blocks to other clients?
2364 2011-05-28 20:55:44 <forrestv> krekbwoy, it's meant as a reply to 'getdata', but the normal client is written in a way that it could be used to push them
2365 2011-05-28 20:55:54 <forrestv> but that's completely non-standard; the normal client does not do that
2366 2011-05-28 20:56:33 <JFK911> ;;bc,mtgox
2367 2011-05-28 20:56:33 <gribble> {"ticker":{"high":8.7,"low":8.111,"vol":12934,"buy":8.1111,"sell":8.2499,"last":8.19}}
2368 2011-05-28 20:57:51 Kiba has joined
2369 2011-05-28 20:59:05 <krekbwoy> alright, thanks
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2404 2011-05-28 21:34:26 <OneFixt> ArtForzZz: you mentioned getting 113mh on the 150, are you currently running it or is it theoretical?
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2414 2011-05-28 21:56:56 <Akiron_> woah can anyone explain this -> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000074496808353ce74c4189451befe81cd75ff0f323aa0971c2d964c70
2415 2011-05-28 21:57:07 <Akiron_> why is that blocks time ahead of subsequent blocks?
2416 2011-05-28 21:57:20 peterpansen has joined
2417 2011-05-28 21:58:58 <bitanarchy> sipa: I had to use hashlib for ripemd (change the code), so it did not show me the bcaddr
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2422 2011-05-28 22:04:21 <forrestv> Akiron_, some miners' clocks are set wrongly
2423 2011-05-28 22:04:31 <forrestv> there's a bit of flexibility allowed with the timestamps
2424 2011-05-28 22:05:02 <forrestv> it just has to be after the median of the last 8(?) and before two hours in the future
2425 2011-05-28 22:05:06 <Akiron_> forrestv: but why doesn't the network reject that block? i.e., why accept a block that is set ahead of local time?
2426 2011-05-28 22:05:09 <gmaxwell> forrestv: 11
2427 2011-05-28 22:05:22 <forrestv> 11*
2428 2011-05-28 22:05:41 <Akiron_> hmmm... that's a weird check
2429 2011-05-28 22:05:43 <gmaxwell> Akiron_: because the network needs to make the same decision, and it's not possible to make sure everyone's clocks are the same.
2430 2011-05-28 22:06:15 <Akiron_> yeah, but shouldn't they agree on UTC time to within at least an hour?
2431 2011-05-28 22:06:22 <gmaxwell> Akiron_: any time the network makes differing decisions you'll end up with a high risk for a chain split.
2432 2011-05-28 22:06:57 <gmaxwell> Akiron_: there is a check that says it must be after the median of the last 11 blocks and can't be more than 2 hours past the nodes idea of the network time.
2433 2011-05-28 22:07:30 <Akiron_> yeah, that's a wierd check
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2436 2011-05-28 22:08:02 <gmaxwell> eh, the tighter the check the more likely it is to cause a bogus chain split.
2437 2011-05-28 22:08:05 <Akiron_> but i guess trying to synch clocks would introduce possible failure modes
2438 2011-05-28 22:08:37 <gmaxwell> This check, as is, creates a minor vulnerability by being too tight.
2439 2011-05-28 22:08:52 <gmaxwell> (well, this check combined with how far the network is allowed to move your local time)
2440 2011-05-28 22:08:57 <forrestv> if a block is nearly exactly two hours in the future?
2441 2011-05-28 22:10:00 <gmaxwell> forrestv: The attack is basically this: You sybil attack big miners and drive their network clock 70 minutes into the future, and you sybil attack e.g. something like mtgox and drive its clock 70 minutes into the past.
2442 2011-05-28 22:10:26 <gmaxwell> Now the mutual skew is >2 hours and they're ignoring blocks from the big miners you're attacking, allowing you to feed them an alternative blockchain that you're creating.
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2445 2011-05-28 22:11:10 <forrestv> oh
2446 2011-05-28 22:11:15 <forrestv> wow.
2447 2011-05-28 22:11:21 tcoppi has joined
2448 2011-05-28 22:11:21 <gmaxwell> Of course, you have to have lots of hash power, lots of network influence, vulnerable targets etc. It's not a super reasonable attack.
2449 2011-05-28 22:11:28 jivvz has joined
2450 2011-05-28 22:11:48 <gmaxwell> If you can control who mtgox connects to you can already split it off onto your own crazy bizarro universe at least for a little while.
2451 2011-05-28 22:11:52 <forrestv> i'd dismissed the sybil attack before, but the timestamp check makes it a lot easier
2452 2011-05-28 22:11:56 <forrestv> no need to completely isolate a node..
2453 2011-05-28 22:11:59 <gmaxwell> Yep.
2454 2011-05-28 22:12:32 vorlov has joined
2455 2011-05-28 22:12:39 <gmaxwell> The simple fix is to adjust the checks so you can't overlap the exclusion rule with network time skew.
2456 2011-05-28 22:13:23 <gmaxwell> e.g. make the network time adjustment <60 minutes (bad for timezone errors) or increase the two hour limit.
2457 2011-05-28 22:14:28 <gmaxwell> Alsoâ high value nodes can protect themselves by hardening against sybil attack (careful manual peer selection) or by deactivating/mostly deactivating their network time code and using a strong local time source + ntp.
2458 2011-05-28 22:15:09 <gmaxwell> Also, conservative confirmation handling helps. E.g. if you require lots of confirms this attack is still unrealistic without a ton of hash power.
2459 2011-05-28 22:15:54 johnnympereira5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2460 2011-05-28 22:16:48 sanity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2461 2011-05-28 22:17:08 <gmaxwell> I'd post a patch, but I'm not sure if there is any reason why increasing the exclusion cutoff to 2.5 hours would be _bad_.
2462 2011-05-28 22:17:26 Sedra has quit (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
2463 2011-05-28 22:17:29 <gmaxwell> The timestamp code is also really vulnerable to sybil attack and it could be hardenedsome.
2464 2011-05-28 22:17:56 <gmaxwell> Right now anyone who can connect to your nodes can stuff you with timestamps if they have access to lots of IPs.
2465 2011-05-28 22:18:08 vorlov has quit (Quit: vorlov)
2466 2011-05-28 22:18:28 <gmaxwell> (they only need one open connection at a time to do this, because your node never forgets time adjustments from disconnected nodes)
2467 2011-05-28 22:21:43 Cusipzzz has joined
2468 2011-05-28 22:21:58 Phoebus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2469 2011-05-28 22:22:00 <forrestv> why not just patch that? when getting the time, only use active connection's timestamps
2470 2011-05-28 22:22:00 Phoebus_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2471 2011-05-28 22:22:08 fimp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2472 2011-05-28 22:22:11 <forrestv> s/'s/s'/
2473 2011-05-28 22:22:22 sanity has joined
2474 2011-05-28 22:23:16 macbook-air has joined
2475 2011-05-28 22:25:33 dr_win has joined
2476 2011-05-28 22:26:34 <gmaxwell> forrestv: Well, you can still drive a node to weird time offsets that wayâ it just requires you to get more active connections. Also means the effective time would dance around as nodes come and go.
2477 2011-05-28 22:27:35 darbsllim has joined
2478 2011-05-28 22:28:23 <gmaxwell> One other thing I considered was, on unix-like systems, querying the local ntp and if it reports good healt automatically reducing the network time clamp a much smaller value. It only needs to be as big as 70 minutes in order to allow timezone errors, I think.
2479 2011-05-28 22:28:25 <forrestv> well, yeah, but it's more difficult. having it dance around would be as it should be, i think ...
2480 2011-05-28 22:28:42 dr_win_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2481 2011-05-28 22:31:06 <gmaxwell> there are also some weird behaviors with how it works right now.. e.g. say your node just came up and NTP isn't in sync yet and you're a half hour off. You'll get your list of corrections stuffed full of 30 minute offsets which become invalid as NTP skews you towards the correct time.
2482 2011-05-28 22:31:40 <gmaxwell> even if you later reconnect to a host you'll never replace its initial correction of your clock.
2483 2011-05-28 22:32:13 <gmaxwell> (right now it only ever takes the first correction from an IP during your nodes lifetime)
2484 2011-05-28 22:34:25 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2485 2011-05-28 22:34:29 diki has joined
2486 2011-05-28 22:35:04 <diki> I am still wondering how to make my front-end check for a solved block. I can set up a cron, but checking every 10 seconds or so is uncrealistic
2487 2011-05-28 22:35:31 <diki> so i thought maybe using pushpoold i could initiate an http connection to a script which would end the round and start the new one
2488 2011-05-28 22:36:04 <diki> this way, the script would be run exactly when a block is found, instead of checking in a pre-defined period
2489 2011-05-28 22:36:33 Marcel has left (HSD!~Marcel|HS@router2.hsdev.com|)
2490 2011-05-28 22:38:30 <diki> the flaw is, that anyone can access it. So i must set up some kind of check..
2491 2011-05-28 22:38:32 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,gen 600000
2492 2011-05-28 22:38:33 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 600000 Khps, given current difficulty of 434882.7217497 , is 1.38772362793 BTC per day and 0.0578218178304 BTC per hour.
2493 2011-05-28 22:38:36 <darbsllim> anyone ever tried linuxcoin?
2494 2011-05-28 22:38:44 <darbsllim> drgr33n's setupf or mining?
2495 2011-05-28 22:38:47 <diki> new drug?
2496 2011-05-28 22:41:02 <bitanarchy> if two wallets share the same pub key, then they must have shared a common past
2497 2011-05-28 22:41:31 <bitanarchy> i have two wallets that share exactly one common pub key...
2498 2011-05-28 22:42:03 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: brought up a new node by copying the .bitcoin directory?
2499 2011-05-28 22:42:20 <bitanarchy> yes
2500 2011-05-28 22:43:27 <bitanarchy> downloading the block chain sucks... takes long
2501 2011-05-28 22:43:52 <gmaxwell> yea, there are some webpages for downloading it via http.
2502 2011-05-28 22:44:04 <bitanarchy> gmaxwell: but i replaced the wallet
2503 2011-05-28 22:44:11 <gmaxwell> aparently not.
2504 2011-05-28 22:44:21 <gmaxwell> was the node already running when you deleted the wallet file?
2505 2011-05-28 22:44:28 marioxcc has joined
2506 2011-05-28 22:44:55 krekbwoy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2507 2011-05-28 22:45:09 <bitanarchy> gmaxwell: no, i stopped the bitcoin software.... i far as i know
2508 2011-05-28 22:46:52 <bitanarchy> i copied the .bitcoin and deleted the wallet file.... the wallet was newly created and i made a backup of that one....then i received, send btc and received change and compared the the wallet files
2509 2011-05-28 22:47:01 Cusipzzz has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
2510 2011-05-28 22:49:58 <bitanarchy> gmaxwell: where is the link to the blockchain?
2511 2011-05-28 22:50:34 stuhood has joined
2512 2011-05-28 22:52:26 tcoppi has joined
2513 2011-05-28 22:52:28 mmoya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2514 2011-05-28 22:54:25 <pwrcycle> are there any links for setting up pushpool & mysql after successful install?
2515 2011-05-28 22:55:00 karnac has quit (Quit: karnac)
2516 2011-05-28 22:56:00 <diki> what links?
2517 2011-05-28 22:56:17 <diki> you design your own database and front-end
2518 2011-05-28 22:56:18 vorlov has joined
2519 2011-05-28 22:58:47 <diki> I've been coding the front-end and simultaniously improving the database, howevre i see myself with little to no support of ipv6....
2520 2011-05-28 22:58:53 <diki> *however
2521 2011-05-28 22:59:06 <diki> So i have to design my front-end to be ipv6 friendly.
2522 2011-05-28 23:00:11 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2523 2011-05-28 23:00:12 <diki> I doubt someone is going to be doing bad stuff, but i am going to include a bans table just in case
2524 2011-05-28 23:07:27 Xenland has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2525 2011-05-28 23:08:12 tcoppi has joined
2526 2011-05-28 23:08:54 <diki> Some people were saying the gui of bitcoin did not run on ubuntu 11.04, but for me it ran instantly
2527 2011-05-28 23:08:58 draaglom has joined
2528 2011-05-28 23:09:06 <diki> always was able to run
2529 2011-05-28 23:10:15 kika_ has joined
2530 2011-05-28 23:10:24 draag has quit (away!~draaglom@78.148.145.242|Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2531 2011-05-28 23:15:05 <marioxcc> diki: those people should learn to report a bug properly :)
2532 2011-05-28 23:15:17 <diki> what do you mean?
2533 2011-05-28 23:15:31 <BlueMatt> it was a bug in wx, it never worked until 0.3.22 rc's
2534 2011-05-28 23:15:37 <BlueMatt> where I patched wx manually
2535 2011-05-28 23:15:41 <diki> huh? works with 0.3.21
2536 2011-05-28 23:16:11 <BlueMatt> dont know what 11.04 you are using, but it works for noone else
2537 2011-05-28 23:16:20 <diki> the original 11.04
2538 2011-05-28 23:16:39 <diki> i guess bitcoin likes me
2539 2011-05-28 23:16:48 <BlueMatt> not me, or any other 11.04 user I know of (at least not the bitcoin binary, it only works if you link against wx-trunk or patch 2.9.1)
2540 2011-05-28 23:16:55 Sedra has joined
2541 2011-05-28 23:17:06 <diki> the binary that is provided on the main site works like a charm
2542 2011-05-28 23:17:11 <diki> try it om a fresh ubuntu
2543 2011-05-28 23:17:15 <BlueMatt> odd to say the least
2544 2011-05-28 23:17:17 <diki> i am sure it's some conflicting app
2545 2011-05-28 23:17:21 <BlueMatt> no, it doesnt work on iso
2546 2011-05-28 23:17:39 <BlueMatt> i386 or amd64, though maybe they upgraded gtk or something since release
2547 2011-05-28 23:17:41 <diki> May i also say i've like installed 3 fresh copies of ubuntu and it always worked
2548 2011-05-28 23:18:07 Kiba has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2549 2011-05-28 23:18:08 <BlueMatt> well it didnt work at release, maybe it has been upgraded (or maybe you are using 10.04 LTS or smt)
2550 2011-05-28 23:18:24 <diki> It's 11.04 i am sure of it
2551 2011-05-28 23:18:38 <BlueMatt> well then libgtk or smt has been updated
2552 2011-05-28 23:19:01 joepie92 has joined
2553 2011-05-28 23:19:26 Sedra has quit (Client Quit)
2554 2011-05-28 23:19:27 <diki> ubuntu-11.04-desktop-i386.iso
2555 2011-05-28 23:19:31 <diki> is what i am using
2556 2011-05-28 23:19:59 <BlueMatt> well then libgtk or smt has been updated...wait no it still wouldnt work unless you had updated those machines after install
2557 2011-05-28 23:20:04 <BlueMatt> before running bitcoin
2558 2011-05-28 23:20:18 <diki> erm, i believe it auto-updated on install
2559 2011-05-28 23:20:36 joepie91 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2560 2011-05-28 23:20:43 <diki> howevwe on one of my installs i unchecked the auto-update
2561 2011-05-28 23:20:49 <diki> *however
2562 2011-05-28 23:21:55 <diki> ;;bc,stats
2563 2011-05-28 23:21:57 <gribble> Current Blocks: 127374 | Current Difficulty: 434882.7217497 | Next Difficulty At Block: 129023 | Next Difficulty In: 1649 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 20 hours, 21 minutes, and 24 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 507036.68323132
2564 2011-05-28 23:21:58 broker has joined
2565 2011-05-28 23:22:14 <diki> total hashrate sure is dropping
2566 2011-05-28 23:22:21 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2567 2011-05-28 23:22:31 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
2568 2011-05-28 23:22:32 <gribble> 3953.0998981787843
2569 2011-05-28 23:22:36 <sipa> yup
2570 2011-05-28 23:22:53 x5x has joined
2571 2011-05-28 23:23:13 <diki> Could it be? Lastminer actually left?
2572 2011-05-28 23:23:22 <sipa> ?
2573 2011-05-28 23:23:36 tcoppi has joined
2574 2011-05-28 23:23:46 <mtrlt> who? :P
2575 2011-05-28 23:23:49 <mtrlt> mystery miner II?
2576 2011-05-28 23:23:55 macbook-air_ has joined
2577 2011-05-28 23:24:31 <diki> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nCUQN5JiHTsJ:forum.bitcoin.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D10160.0+i+leave+i+will+give+btc+bitcoin.org&cd=1&hl=bg&ct=clnk&gl=bg&source=www.google.bg
2578 2011-05-28 23:24:34 <diki> link lol
2579 2011-05-28 23:24:38 Sedra has joined
2580 2011-05-28 23:25:32 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2581 2011-05-28 23:26:33 macbook-air has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2582 2011-05-28 23:26:33 sethsethseth____ has joined
2583 2011-05-28 23:26:35 sethsethseth____ is now known as sethsethseth_
2584 2011-05-28 23:27:33 sethsethseth___ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2585 2011-05-28 23:27:45 macbook-air_ is now known as macbook-air
2586 2011-05-28 23:29:32 <diki> If a block get's orphaned or is rejected by the blockchain will it still be listed in listtransactions?
2587 2011-05-28 23:34:16 macbook-air has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2588 2011-05-28 23:34:23 nuberman has joined
2589 2011-05-28 23:34:39 macbook-air has joined
2590 2011-05-28 23:34:55 <nuberman> anyone here?
2591 2011-05-28 23:35:03 macbook-air_ has joined
2592 2011-05-28 23:35:08 <BlueMatt> no
2593 2011-05-28 23:35:24 <BlueMatt> and definitely not 342 people
2594 2011-05-28 23:36:00 <nuberman> you counted? :P
2595 2011-05-28 23:36:31 <BlueMatt> does the web gateway not give you a total? oh well mine does
2596 2011-05-28 23:36:51 <nuberman> anyway, i meant is anyone willing to answer my newbie question.
2597 2011-05-28 23:36:54 <io-> any thoughts on this fan: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835213001 ?
2598 2011-05-28 23:37:15 <io-> pushes 240CFM for $30
2599 2011-05-28 23:37:16 <Backburn> good fans
2600 2011-05-28 23:37:16 <BlueMatt> nuberman: ask in #bitcoin first, then come back here if they cant answer
2601 2011-05-28 23:37:20 <Backburn> very loud :)
2602 2011-05-28 23:37:22 <io-> very
2603 2011-05-28 23:37:24 <BlueMatt> io-: #bitcoin-mining is probably better
2604 2011-05-28 23:37:32 <nuberman> its about nodes though
2605 2011-05-28 23:37:35 <diki> there's a hidden loli among the users, that's why the count is wrong
2606 2011-05-28 23:37:46 <BlueMatt> nuberman: noob questions belong in #bitcoin
2607 2011-05-28 23:37:52 io- is now known as io-Zzzz
2608 2011-05-28 23:37:57 <nuberman> k
2609 2011-05-28 23:38:12 <marioxcc> io-: a small fan working from AC mains with open box is better IMHO
2610 2011-05-28 23:38:28 <marioxcc> not more advanced nor nicer, just better
2611 2011-05-28 23:38:36 <marioxcc> ie: effective
2612 2011-05-28 23:39:02 <Backburn> $5 walmart box fans ftw
2613 2011-05-28 23:39:03 macbook-air has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2614 2011-05-28 23:39:04 macbook-air_ is now known as macbook-air
2615 2011-05-28 23:39:14 <BlueMatt> wait...wtf? why does it appear that we used to have a basic test suite? where did that go?
2616 2011-05-28 23:40:24 <diki> Did someone steal the nanosuit?
2617 2011-05-28 23:42:30 <BlueMatt> diki: why does it seem that you have said nothing of use in the past several days?
2618 2011-05-28 23:43:56 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2619 2011-05-28 23:44:13 <BlueMatt> diki: if you have nothing useful to say, please dont say anything...you dont want to be banned like that other guy...
2620 2011-05-28 23:44:22 <diki> the other guy?
2621 2011-05-28 23:45:10 <diki> There is only one channel i banned from and it's from the rizon network. Been banned for two years now
2622 2011-05-28 23:45:20 <BlueMatt> the guy who got all pissy at soultcer
2623 2011-05-28 23:45:32 <BlueMatt> from a couple days ago
2624 2011-05-28 23:45:34 <diki> but i am not pissing at anyone lol
2625 2011-05-28 23:46:03 <diki> Anyway, i wont write then
2626 2011-05-28 23:46:14 <BlueMatt> yes, but posting random gibberish is a waste of your time and everyone else's...
2627 2011-05-28 23:46:28 <BlueMatt> if you want to add to bitcoin/the discussion, I welcome it...random gibberish not so much
2628 2011-05-28 23:46:53 <diki> How about make it more simple for others to understand then? This so called discussion
2629 2011-05-28 23:47:15 <BlueMatt> if you are confused, then go to another chan or ask questions
2630 2011-05-28 23:48:03 tcoppi has joined
2631 2011-05-28 23:48:24 Nicksasa has joined
2632 2011-05-28 23:48:37 <Nicksasa> Why can accounts on bitcoind have a negative value ?
2633 2011-05-28 23:49:11 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2634 2011-05-28 23:49:24 <marioxcc> Nicksasa: they can't AFAIK
2635 2011-05-28 23:49:46 <Nicksasa> "Nicksasa" : -0.21000000,
2636 2011-05-28 23:49:48 <BlueMatt> well the rpc "accounts" can, simply because there are no rules enforced on accounts
2637 2011-05-28 23:49:54 <Nicksasa> hmm
2638 2011-05-28 23:50:10 <marioxcc> value?
2639 2011-05-28 23:50:13 <BlueMatt> the accounts are just names given to incoming addresses, but unless you take care to send from the right account...
2640 2011-05-28 23:50:18 <marioxcc> the money available to them can't be negative
2641 2011-05-28 23:50:33 <BlueMatt> bitcoin always choses inputs based on age and prio factors anyway, no matter where you "send from"
2642 2011-05-28 23:50:58 <Nicksasa> II know the money is there, but when my code checks the account balance if it's > 0.1
2643 2011-05-28 23:51:00 <BlueMatt> though your total balance/the real balance of any given address can never go negative
2644 2011-05-28 23:51:21 <Nicksasa> I should just use the addresses to check the balance i guess
2645 2011-05-28 23:51:22 <BlueMatt> unless you need them I recommend you dont use bitcoin's accounts, just use total balance from getinfo
2646 2011-05-28 23:51:56 <Nicksasa> I can't really use that, i need to know wich user sended the BTC
2647 2011-05-28 23:52:10 <Nicksasa> but i could use listtransactions in an array i guess
2648 2011-05-28 23:53:14 <BlueMatt> I would recommend doing your own account system in your own db
2649 2011-05-28 23:53:22 <BlueMatt> bitcoin's accounts kind of suck
2650 2011-05-28 23:53:29 <Nicksasa> yeah i will
2651 2011-05-28 23:53:34 <BlueMatt> but if you are careful to always use sendfrom and such, you can pull it off
2652 2011-05-28 23:53:35 <Nicksasa> i've already set it up
2653 2011-05-28 23:53:51 tcoppi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2654 2011-05-28 23:53:51 <Nicksasa> it was working fine until bitcoind decided to freeze :/
2655 2011-05-28 23:54:01 <Nicksasa> after that the values became negative
2656 2011-05-28 23:54:45 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2657 2011-05-28 23:54:52 <diki> Here's a question bluematt. Pool generates block, pool wants to check how many confirmations said block has, how will it refer listtransactions for said block? No id so...
2658 2011-05-28 23:55:56 karnac has joined
2659 2011-05-28 23:56:56 <BlueMatt> diki: listtransactions gives you a confirmation count
2660 2011-05-28 23:57:22 Ramokk has joined
2661 2011-05-28 23:57:28 <diki> but what if the pool generated two blocks
2662 2011-05-28 23:57:39 <diki> there'd be two instances of confirmations, which do i look for?
2663 2011-05-28 23:57:41 <BlueMatt> then listtransactions would show 2 transactions
2664 2011-05-28 23:57:56 <diki> Yes, how would i then know which of them was for block 1 or 2?
2665 2011-05-28 23:58:08 <BlueMatt> listtransactions gives you a timestamp and a txid
2666 2011-05-28 23:59:00 <diki> after using pushpoold a bit i have not come across in any way to use that txid
2667 2011-05-28 23:59:12 <diki> since i dont have it stored anywhere to refer with it